A little while ago the Mighty God King posted a marvellous collection of doctored book covers, with the titles he felt the books he’d loved as a teenager should have had. The genius of this was the way he used the exact right fonts every time, so that Mercedes Lackey’s My Little Pony Goes to War had just the font you were expecting to see on that cover. One of them that made me laugh out loud was his cover for George R.R. Martin’s Game of Thrones. (I love those books.) His new title was Knights Who Say “Fuck,” which amused me not only because of the clever Python reference but because it’s true, they do, and that’s one of the things that makes it different from traditional high fantasy. He’s not the only person whose knights are saying “Fuck” these days—Sarah Monette’s charmingly foulmouthed Mildmay leaps to mind—but it is something you never used to see. It didn’t fit the register of fantasy. The register has broadened. Interesting.
I’m reading Cherryh’s Downbelow Station which was published in 1981. I started it immediately after finishing Hellburner, which is set earlier but was published in 1992. I noticed immediately that in Downbelow Station the troopers “breath an obscenity into com,” “swore quietly,” “swore at length,” “adding an obscenity.” In Hellburner in equivalent situations they’re saying “Shit, shit, shit!” and "Fuck!”
Now I read both of these books pretty much when they came out, and I didn’t notice anything odd about the level of permitted swearing in them. Yet something definitely changed, between 1981 and 1992, and it wasn’t C.J. Cherryh. The number of times someone breathes an oath, an obscenity, or swears viciously in Downbelow Station, you can tell she knows the words the troopers are saying. In fact it reminds me of the coy dashes you get in Trollope, where the fact that a husband called a wife a “-------” in He Knew He Was Right, is plot-rocking, and no, you never find out what the word is. The footnotes think “harlot”. As I’m not even faintly shocked by “harlot” I’ve decided to fill in that blank, and all Trollope’s blanks, with the worst words I know.
So, was Cherryh being effectively censored by what you were allowed to say?
The thing that surprises me about that is the date. I thought it was the sixties when people in books were allowed to use actual oaths, rather than just mighty ones. Did genre fiction lag behind? Certainly it was the New Wave that started talking about sex, but how careful were the words? I noticed when reading W.E.B. Griffin that you can say “shit” all you like in his books as long as you’re not talking about “human excrement” and similarly “fuck” unless you’re talking about “sexual intercourse.” Obscenities are different from description, and use of the words can vary in either direction. These words are charged, and they have very specific registers, they’re significant markers.
You used to see fake “futuristic” swearing. (Who can forget Larry Niven’s “tanj”?) When did that stop? Drinking Sapphire Wine has it, and that’s 1976.
So, things clearly changed in the eighties. Why? Was there a specific change, a specific book or date that it changed, within genre fiction? Or was it a general cultural change of what was acceptable slowly bleeding through into genre? Did it get to SF first and seep into fantasy later? Game of Thrones is 1996.
And when did it stop being daring for people to swear “like a trooper” and become normal? My memory is that in South Wales when I was a child adults swore in Welsh, and what they said, translated, meant “God” or “The Devil,” and “bloody” was pretty strong swearing in English. But my memory of being a young adult in Britain in the early and mid-eighties didn’t include other young women casually saying “fuck” the way they do now. I think there has been an actual change, and it isn’t just that literature was coy about recording what people said, as that what people say has changed. I’m sure this is also a difference between Britain and North America, and maybe between different areas too.
And in the future? Well, there are fashions in these things. Perhaps our texts with their liberal scatterings of “fuck” will eventually look as quaint as Trollope’s dashes.
Monday December 01, 2008 08:39am EST
VIEW ALL BY · Monday December 01, 2008 08:59am EST
You have to have a fairly rigid society both class and gender-wise to keep that divide. Cf. Bujold's description of Cordelia figuring out the way in which the pretence can be maintained on Barrayar as to what certain people do and do not know and/or do as regards sex.
Our generation always used more swearwords than the previous one seemed to - if my mother said "Jesus" once a year under extreme provocation she would nearly flagellate herself for it. My own language really went to the dogs one summer in 1989, when I was working in a hotel in Germany with a mixed bag of English speakers from England (mainly Northern England), Scotland, Ireland North & South and 1 Welsh person. The two girls from Belfast (1 Protestant & 1 Catholic, fwiw) swore the most but we almost all ended up the same in the end. I came back from that with a far fouler mouth than my father, not to mind my mother.
Interestingly I think the older generation are a bit more lax themselves now than they were when I was growing up.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday December 01, 2008 09:02am EST
But turning to fantasy literature cursing... hrm. Before A Game of Thrones, the person who comes to mind is Katherine Kerr and Daggerspell, her first Deverry book, published in 1986. "Shit" is used as a matter of course. "Fuck" is also mentioned, although in that book it's strictly describing intercourse.
Jordan's Wheel of Time uses very mild fantasy curses, "Blood and ashes!", "Light!", and so on, and of course Thomas Covenant has "Hellfire and damnation!" for that old Biblical feel.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday December 01, 2008 09:58am EST
The number of women in military service in the 60's was very small; there were nurses (as foul-mouthed as soldiers), and a few others in uniform. Since then, the number of women has increased considerably, and I wonder if that has something to do with the public acceptance. Certainly the taboo against using "fuck" in mixed (gender) company has evaporated in that time.
And in part I expect it's because a couple of generations have grown up with successively more real swearing allowed in the media they see and read, each generation adding its own increase as a rebellion against their parents. As a generation grows to the age of having power in the media, they impose their own standards, first in an "edgy" manner in the fringes of a genre, and then moving toward the central, more conservative areas.
Yes, high fantasy is a conservative genre. It has fairly rigid rules about how plots evolve, and what kinds of characters can fill which roles. Its tropes have remained clearly outlined by the initial work of Tolkien, Eddison, and carried on by those who followed them. So what became urban fantasy, a more recent genre, started cursing realistically before high fantasy, but eventually editors could be convinced that even high fantasy deserved a good "fuck".
VIEW ALL BY · Monday December 01, 2008 12:34pm EST
I can spot one thing that changed between 1981 and 1992 but it's publisher-specific: Donald Wollheim retired. When I was doing the DAW reviews
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I'd like to point out that although I have what I think is a complete list of Timescape books someone else has dibs on those reviews and while I would be willing to tackle reviewing everything Tor has ever published, at least in the way of F&SF, I have thus far failed to put together a list
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I did notice that Wollheim's choices differed somewhat from those of Elizabeth R. Wollheim and Sheila E. Gilbert and that while I want in no way to suggest that SEG and ERW were making the wrong decisions, the books they published were less likely to interest me than the ones Wollheim published.
They were 100% right to dump Norman, though. Make room for more A. Bertram Chandler, Edward Llewellyn and David Lake books, I say. Yes, yes, by that point two of them were dead and one was Australian. New MSes might have turned up.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday December 01, 2008 12:41pm EST · amended on Monday December 01, 2008 12:42pm EST
My middle school books had to include a picture of the fresco because it was historically important, but didn't translate the sentences, because one of the characters actually said "traite, fili de le pute", that is "pull, you sons of whores".
Monday December 01, 2008 01:09pm EST
Monday December 01, 2008 06:52pm EST
Thanks for mentioning Kerr's Daggerspell. Her phrase "withered testicle of a sterile donkey" is still one of my favorites.
Monday December 01, 2008 07:24pm EST
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday December 02, 2008 01:12am EST
If it jars you out of the story..........?
Sometimes it's meant to I suppose. A good writer can carry it off.
I love the older books though. It would be out of place to see swearing like that in those stories. I am thinking of some wonderful rereads lately of E. E. doc Smiths lensmen series, among others.
I've stopped watching television because I have to pace the profanity. Too much and I feel sick of it all. Within the show if it's warranted I can deal. Again good writing can move you through it almost without noticing.
Good discussion. I'm thinking it's time I read my first Kerr. My tbr pile grows ever larger. :)
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday December 02, 2008 09:11am EST
I feel similarly about certain ethnic/racial slurs. I once referred (in my journal) to a four-letter k-word as The Word I Won't Quote, and a friend of mine wrote to say she didn't know any four-letter k-words that might be objectionable to me, and when I clarified that it was an anti-Semitic slur, she was even more clear that she didn't have any idea what I meant. (I told her. She's a fantasy writer; the last thing she needs is to come up with it as a made-up word, although editors I've talked to assure me that they can tell the difference between ignorance and racism in that sort of context fairly readily.)
So I don't think the shift is one way towards foul language. My grandmother has great distaste for white people who call black people the n-word, but she will quote it with her mouth all sour if she has to, to demonstrate what horrible thing was said, and I find myself shying away from doing so if I can possibly avoid it.
I know what you mean about putting the worst words you can think of in Trollope. When I was reading early John D. MacDonald, he would write, "she called him a ten-letter epithet," and I would stop reading and sit there running through the epithets I could think of, seeing how many had ten letters, or how many compound ones I could construct with ten letters. It got a lot filthier than if he'd just written what he meant and had done with it.
I have a set of stories (two so far in On Spec, with another coming out) in the first-person voice of a contemporary man in his early 20s who plays hockey. If Carter said "gosh darn" and "golly gee," that would tell you something about his character. He doesn't, and that tells you something, too. But I've made the conscious decision to leave out casually homophobic references that would be fairly realistic in a minor league men's hockey team, because they would bore the heck out of me if I had to write them constantly, and taking the time to specifically deplore and/or undermine them is not what I want to do with these stories, but leaving them undeplored/unundermined will also not really do. So out they go. So far no complaints.
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday December 02, 2008 12:35pm EST
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday December 02, 2008 07:35pm EST
This is in the mouth of a trooper. So troopers still couldn't quite swear like themselves in 1989, but things had moved on a lot since 1981.
Interesting.
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday December 02, 2008 07:44pm EST
I agree with you in the general sense -- people shouldn't use any words but the words that there's a reason to have on the page. Cuss words are no different from anything else. If there's a reason to use "fuck" it's the same as if there's a reason to use "nacreous" or anything else. Writing is very much a matter of writing down the word that comes next, whatever that word might be.
I don't naturally cuss either. Swearing is pretty much an affectation for me. If I say "sheesh", or "what the heck" I'm not using it as a euphemism for anything, I am not suppressing my own desire to say something "worse" but just speaking naturally. I similarly try to make my characters speak as is natural to them... and they're different from me, from different contexts. I don't use it to get an effect from the reader -- except in Tooth and Claw where I use dashes with unlikely consonants v----- and g----- purely for effect.
I think it gets more attention and feels more unnatural in context for Cherryh's troopers to be saying "effing" or "breathing an obscenity" than for them to be saying "fucking".
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday December 03, 2008 09:49pm EST
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday December 03, 2008 10:45pm EST
Last year, I read "The Algebraist" by Iain Banks. It had an interesting premise and was highly rated. But, I was completely turned off by the liberal use of the f-word. It just seemed completely out of place in a story set 20,000 years in the future. Surely, they would have come up with different profanities in that amount of time.
I really don't consider myself to be a prude on this issue either. I love the character of Ari on the HBO series "Entourage". He spews an f-word every sentence, but that's his character. I thought "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao" was excellent and there's an immeasurable amount of profanity in it.
I just think profanities need to fit the characters and the stories. Too many times, they seem awkward and self-conscious. To be honest, I see profanity in the same light as sex in literature; it shouldn't be there unless it moves the story forward or provides some dimension to a character. If the author is uncomfortable with the language, he/she should not be using it. Just because the use of profanity is so common doesn't mean it has to be used.
Thursday December 04, 2008 01:20am EST
VIEW ALL BY · Thursday December 04, 2008 11:26pm EST
Oh, I also became a primary school teacher there for a while - there was some kind of fabulous mental filter that clicked in to place as soon as I walked through the classroom door that made swearing impossible - I think I had been in the job for three years before I breathed a pained "shit" when I dropped a table on my toe in an empty classroom - quite a different reaction to one I might have had in the privacy of my own home.
In novels and on TV it doesn't bother me, but it's something I tried to prune out of my own speech when I noted I was over-using it to the detriment of quality communication.
And, in other news - China Mieville is a "he"? I always assumed the author was female!
VIEW ALL BY · Friday December 05, 2008 06:26am EST
China Mieville definitely is male, I've met him. I have heard that his name comes from the Cockney rhyming slang "me old china" meaning "friend" from "china plate" rhyming with "mate", but that sounds almost too good to be true.
VIEW ALL BY · Friday December 05, 2008 06:48am EST
VIEW ALL BY · Monday December 08, 2008 07:27pm EST
So it's best to leave it be.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday December 08, 2008 08:05pm EST
In my opinion, the books that have real staying power avoid using slang and colloquialisms, unless it's literature that's aimed at capturing a slice of contemporary life. I think the current prevalence of the f-word and other profanities fits into the category of slang and colloquialism.
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday December 17, 2008 08:39am EST
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The construct, "[Some character or other] swore," especially in YA fantasy, always confused me as a child reader. I knew most of the common American English curse words, but I couldn't imagine the high fantasy characters saying them, and I didn't know what else they might be saying.
Wednesday December 17, 2008 08:47am EST
I have to say that sometimes I prefer the "breathed an obscenity" to the actual words, because as an Italian I am regularly disappointed by English language cussing. At least Deadwood used something else apart from "fuck" and "shit". Even so, English cursing is uniformly sexual and so lacks the possibility for obscenity given by religion. In Italian, "shit" is a very mild swearword and "cock" (Cazzo!) is taboo, but never so much as swearing about the attributes, parental relations and behaviour of the Trinity and the Virgin Mary. So much so that I have heard independently from my father and a friend of mine, born and raised apart and who never met, the expression "Cazzo di Buddha!" as reinforcement of a simple "Cazzo!". Because without religion what kind of a swearword is it? (Buddhist friends to which I explained my particular unease with cursing other people's religious icons have told me that they actually find it very amusing and endearing).
One of my friends from Tuscany told me that her favourite swear was "Madonna botte, con tutti i santi dentro e Dio per tappo", which loosely translates as "Virgin's barrel, with all the saints in it and God as a cork". Doesn't really work, does it? But it gives the idea of what an art and craft swearing is in Tuscany.
Even my favourite cuss, of which I am particularly proud because I invented it, "Porca Polpetta" doesn't really translate. "Damned meatball?" "Filthy meatball" as somebody suggested? And what about "Porca polpetta in sugo di calamaretti con patatine di contorno?"
Which brings me to the whole issue of the sliding and resliding of swearwords. For example the reason we say "Porca Eva" is because it used to be "Porca Madonna". Just as we say "porco cane" because it used to be "porco Dio". But the original meaning starts to leak through so it becomes "Orco cane", and then it fuses with "Dio boia" to become "orco boia", with all traces of the original deity removed. My Porca Polpetta arises from the fact that I didn't like saying "Porca Puttana", because I started to feel uneasy with this undue stigmatization of prostitution.
But the sad thing is that while in Italian "Who's the bastard son of a filthy whore who did this?" sounds elaborate and unlikely, "Fuck" to my ears sounds irredeemably lame.
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday December 17, 2008 08:53am EST
Wednesday December 17, 2008 09:09am EST
Writing fantasy with any kind of swearing in Swedish becomes quite a task. The frell route is a bit silly. Using sexual slurs sounds like influence from English-language fantasy. More general curses like "skitstövel" (shitbooth) or "himmel" (heavens) are a bit weak - this is also true of one of my favourites in my own life, "Gudars skymning" (dusk of gods). "He cursed" becomes the easiest option.
Wednesday December 17, 2008 10:23am EST
Strong language is strong often because it is both apt and unusual. And it is also characterization, as has been mentioned by other above. But I agree with the uncomfortable feelings about Banks use of sexual slang in a far future culture, which I suspect will not use it but something else. And I think it is up to the writer to indicate that "something else."
The use of fuck or shit or other such in SF used to be transgressive and a marker for adult readers that this text was going to cut out both prudes and younger readers (it didn't, much, but that's obvious). What it did in addition was alert marketers that these texts were not for kids and not for whole geographic areas where distribution of such works could be challenged locally. And so the mainstream distribution of fantasy and SF was somewhat limited. That was not a good thing, in that it lost us all some money, but it did recede into insignificance in the mid 90s when the whole mass distribution system condensed and a majority of SF and fantasy books got limited distribution. So now we have more freedom and a smaller audience and a more adult audience. And strong language has mostly lost it's transgressive power and is just there.
I do remember, with great nostalgia, the years when we could distribute 50 or 75 thousand copies of a science fiction paperback and expect them to be everywhere in the US and Canada. I am sort of sorry that the increasing prevalence of fuck contributed in any way to the loss of that.
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday December 17, 2008 08:54pm EST
I don't know about that. "Where's that miserable sack of shit?!" is pretty fun and descriptive.
VIEW ALL BY · Thursday December 18, 2008 06:07am EST
Because assuming Cherryh's desire to have troopers use the words is constant and she's using words deemed acceptable by editors at the time, I'm seeing a pattern of "breathed a curse" 1981, "shit, effing, mof" 1989, "fuck" 2002. Which suggests the change happened in the nineties when the distributors were melting down anyway?
As I said in the main post, the timing surprised me because I thought it was in the sixties and seventies that things changed.
Also, isn't it the case that you were sending out 50,000 copies each of a much smaller number of novels?
VIEW ALL BY · Thursday December 18, 2008 10:18am EST
Apologies if someone else has made this point but there are SO many comments to look through, and i need to prise myself off the computer now to deal with the IE7 security problem.
I'd agree that the prevalence of words weakens them, and society will always have taboos - it only seems that we have fewer taboos cos we're counting the ones we call taboo. There are new ones replacing the ones we identify as such.
'We' being 'people with my upbringing', of course! ;0)
VIEW ALL BY · Thursday December 18, 2008 12:24pm EST
VIEW ALL BY · Monday April 20, 2009 11:31pm EDT
Additionally I found that books and Movies that make liberal use of long strings of expletives are generally indicators that the particular milieu to be depicted is not one I'm going to enjoy spending time in. I like my escapism more on the possitive side:)
Friday June 19, 2009 11:57am EDT