Mar 8 2013 2:00pm

A Read of Ice and Fire: A Storm of Swords, Part 21

George R.R. Martin A Storm of Swords Part 21 Reread A Read of Ice and Fire  Tyrion Lannister Jaime LannisterWelcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.

Today’s entry is Part 21 of A Storm of Swords, in which we cover Chapter 37 (“Jaime”) and Chapter 38 (“Tyrion”).

Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread in the forums here on Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.

And now, the post!

Chapter 37: Jaime

What Happens
Jaime’s guards bring him into the bathhouse where Brienne is bathing, to her discomfort, which amuses Jaime as he thinks she has no attributes to speak of. He kicks out the guards and attendants, and puts himself in the same bathtub as Brienne, telling her he has no interest in her when she objects. He says she ought to be pleased at his maiming, and comments that it was no wonder Renly died on her watch. She gets up, upset, and Jaime is surprised and disturbed to feel arousal at the sight of her.

He apologizes for the jibe and offers a truce, though he acknowledges the folly of trusting a man called “Kingslayer.” He wonders why no one calls Robert an oathbreaker when he rebelled against Aerys too, and Brienne answers that Robert rebelled for love, and to save the realm. Jaime mocks this, saying Robert did it for “pride, a cunt, and a pretty face.” He finds himself telling the story to her of how Aerys, when he became fearful of rebellion, planted wildfire underneath King’s Landing, and executed his Hand (Lord Chelsted) by fire when he protested against it, with Jaime as the only witness. He tells her how after Robert defeated Rhaegar at the Trident, he heard Aerys tell his pyromancer Rossart that he would give the traitor (Robert) nothing but ashes and charred bones to reign over.

Jaime tells her how Aerys demanded he bring Aerys his own father’s head, and then how he killed each of Aerys’s pet pyromancers before killing Aerys himself. Brienne asks why no one knows of this, and Jaime laughs that Ned Stark was never interested in his “feeble excuses” even if he had wanted to tell. Jaime then nearly passes out, but Brienne catches him and then helps him dress for dinner; the dress they give Brienne is too small for her, but Jaime refrains from teasing her about it, and they go to join Lord Bolton for dinner.

Bolton comments that Edmure Tully has offered a thousand gold dragons for Jaime’s recapture (Jaime replies that his sister will pay ten times as much), and that Lord Karstark has offered the hand of his daughter for Jaime’s head. Jaime replies “Leave it to your goat to get it backward,” which amuses Bolton, who says that fortunately he has no need of a wife, having already married Lady Walda Frey. Brienne asks if Bolton really means to give Harrenhal to Vargo Hoat, and Bolton confirms it. He tells them about Edmure Tully’s betrothal to Lady Roslin Frey, and Robb Stark’s marriage to Jeyne Westerling, to Brienne’s shock. He also tells them that Arya Stark is alive and that he means to return her to the north. Brienne tells him the deal was for the Lannisters to release both Arya and Sansa Stark in return for Jaime.

Bolton explains that he does in fact mean to send Jaime on to King’s Landing, but Hoat’s act of cutting off Jaime’s hand presents him with a problem. He explains that Hoat had done it “to remove your sword as a threat, gain himself a grisly token to send to your father, and diminish your value to me,” in an effort to preserve himself from Tywin Lannister’s vengeance and to avoid the predators outside Harrenhal which would have stolen his prize from him, but as Hoat’s nominal liege lord, Bolton could be seen as responsible for the act. Jaime laughs, and tells Bolton that if he sends Jaime to Cersei he will absolve Bolton of all guilt in the matter.

Bolton tells Jaime that he intends to send him to King’s Landing with a strong escort under the command of his captain, Walton. Brienne reminds him that the return of Lady Catelyn’s daughters are part of the bargain, and her charge, but Bolton answers that Lady Sansa is married to the dwarf now, and no concern of hers. Brienne is appalled, and Jaime thinks that that must have made Tyrion happy. Bolton goes on to say that his intentions for Jaime have nothing to do with Brienne, anyway.

“It would be unconscionable of me to deprive Lord Vargo of both his prizes.” The Lord of the Dreadfort reached out to pick another prune. “Were I you, my lady, I should worry less about Starks and rather more about sapphires.”


Roose Bolton, you are an asshole who sucks. Not that we didn’t already know this, but it bears repeating.

He’s giving Brienne back to Hoat? Jesus. No!

That better not actually happen.

Also, the political labyrinth depicted here is positively migraine-inducing, to the point that I almost can’t follow it. I actually ended up leaving a lot of Bolton’s ruminations in that vein out of the summary, which will probably come back to bite me on the ass later, but whatever, because ow, my brain.

The stuff in Jaime’s ruminations, on the other hand, was a bit easier to follow. It’s interesting that Jaime’s account of Aerys’s behavior leading up to the coup bolsters Stannis’s comment, obliquely, that Varys was central to eroding the mad king’s confidence—or amping up his paranoia, which amounts to the same thing. And then there’s Pycelle’s contribution to Aerys’s betrayal, of course, which we knew about before, but in conjunction with the stuff about Varys now makes me wonder just how much they were/are in cahoots as a whole. It certainly doesn’t do anything to detract from Tyrion’s impression that the Council in King’s Landing is basically a pit of vipers. Bluh.

The whole tale, of course, is aimed at illuminating more justification for why Jaime killed Aerys, the implication being that Jaime saved King’s Landing from a fiery immolation and alla that. Which… okay, that’s a thing, though I’m not sure I believe that saving the townsfolk was really Jaime’s primary motivation there, but in any case, I personally didn’t actually need the validation for that act anyway. My problem with Jaime has never really been with his assassination of Aerys; my beef with him has always been about what he did to Bran.

In other news: Ah, so Jaime is attracted to Brienne, is he? Me did thinks the gentlemen doth call her an ugly cow too much. It’s a trope, a character trying to convince him/herself they hate/aren’t attracted to someone they really, really don’t/do, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a certain amount of legitimacy.

I would have just passed Jaime’s interest off, by the way, as that thing where apparently straight guys are occasionally involuntarily aroused by any girl even when they’re not actually attracted to them, except that Jaime has made a point of noting in the past that he has never been even remotely interested in any woman besides Cersei. Which indicates to me that his feeling even a passing sexual interest in Brienne is actually rather significant.

Which reminds me: one of the things I’m abstractly intrigued by, in a meta sense, is when authors allow their point-of-view characters to be unreliable narrators—not necessarily overtly (e.g., Poe’s narrator in The Tell-Tale Heart), but in the extent to which a character’s own personal prejudices/preferences/predilections unconsciously influence their view of other characters or the world. In other words, just because Character X tells us Character Y looks/acts/behaves a certain way, it’s not necessarily really how Y looks/acts/behaves, even if X absolutely believes it to be so.

In case it wasn’t already obvious, this is a thing at which Martin obviously excels, and it ought to be pointed out that this is often a thing in which even otherwise excellent writers conspicuously fail, so it’s worth pointing out. In so many works, it’s so clear that even when various characters disagree on what is or is not right/real/going on re: events or philosophical issues in the plot, there is a definite undercurrent emanating from the author (deliberately or otherwise) informing the reader of what actually is right/real/going on, in the author’s opinion, whether the particular character in command of the camera at that moment realizes that or not.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it is definitely a thing. And Martin is notable in that he mostly seems to completely avoid that tendency. Which is refreshingly realistic on one level, and terribly disturbing on several others.

So Brienne in particular is a fascinating character to see through other characters’ eyes, because while she clearly deviates from the “norm” of what a typical Westeros person thinks of as the standard of feminine beauty (which is, by design or accident, fairly close to what a typical American thinks of as that standard as far as I can tell), it can be quite the conundrum to try and figure out what Brienne really is like when not filtered through, say, Jaime’s personal set of hang-ups re: women and what they should look/be like.

I’m not actually pointing this out as a flaw, by the way, not at all. I am naturally frustrated by Jaime’s inability to accept that there is more than one way for a woman to be beautiful, but at the same time I also acknowledge that it would be untrue to the character to make him miraculously cognizant of that fact without a lot more character development/relationship development than we currently have on board here.

All that said, I wonder if Jaime will actually try to put up a fight for Brienne here, or if he will let it go in his eagerness to get back to Cersei. At this point I would say it could go either way. We shall see.


Chapter 38: Tyrion

What Happens
Tyrion awaits the approach of the Dornish contingent, and amuses himself by having Pod identify all the banners of the accompanying Houses coming with the Martells. He is concerned that those banners represent the most powerful of the Dornish houses, and then Pod points out that there is no litter with the Martells’ banner, indicating that Prince Doran is not with the company. Tyrion and his entourage ride down to greet the Dornishmen, and he is dismayed to discover that the leader of the party is Prince Oberyn Martell instead, the “Red Viper of Dorne,” whose reputation is fearsome, and more importantly had been the one to cripple the heir to Highgarden. Tyrion thinks there is no one who would be less welcome at a Tyrell wedding, and no one more likely to start something while there.

As they ride, Oberyn remarks that he has seen Tyrion before, when he came to Casterly Rock as a young man, just after Tyrion had been born. Tyrion thinks it an odd time to visit, considering Tywin’s wife Joanna had just died giving birth to Tyrion, and the whole place would have been in mourning. Oberyn complains that Tywin ignored them the entire time, and tells of how Cersei and Jaime had snuck him in to see Tyrion as an infant, and how disappointed Oberyn had been to see that Tyrion was not nearly as monstrous-looking as rumor had made him. Tyrion expresses mocking chagrin that he let Oberyn down. Oberyn tells him how Cersei said “he killed my mother,” and twisted the infant Tyrion’s cock, making him scream, until Jaime made her stop. Tyrion goes cold at the story, but plays it off.

Oberyn asks if it is true Tyrion has imposed a tax on whoring; Tyrion confirms it sourly, for even though it had been Tywin’s idea, he had received all the blame for “the dwarf’s penny.” Oberyn jokes that he will be certain to keep pennies on him, then, and Tyrion asks why he would need to go whoring when he has his “paramour” Ellaria Sand, a bastard-born girl who Tyrion is sure will cause more problems at court as well. Oberyn says Ellaria is interested in sharing.

Oberyn more seriously asks after the promised justice re: his sister Elia’s killer. Tyrion says they have not yet had time to look into it very deeply, and Oberyn warns him that he did not come for a farce of an inquiry, but for real justice. He wants Gregor Clegane, but more importantly he wants whoever gave Clegane the order. Tyrion points out to him how outnumbered he is while in King’s Landing. Tyrion also mentions Willas Tyrell, but Oberyn claims that Willas holds no ill will for him for accidentally crippling him at jousting. Tyrion brings up Loras Tyrell’s prowess as a fighter, but Oberyn is unimpressed. Tyrion finally recommends him to Chataya’s, and advises him to keep two of her girls with him at all times, since he had expressed a wish to die “with a breast in hand,” and rides ahead.

He had suffered all he meant to suffer of what passed for Dornish wit. Father should have sent Joffrey after all. He could have asked Prince Oberyn if he knew how a Dornishman differed from a cowflop. That made him grin despite himself. He would have to make a point of being on hand when the Red Viper was presented to the king.

Well, THIS isn’t going to go badly or anything. Because that’s just what King’s Landing needed: more political complications! Whoo!

*rolls eyes*

And yes, Tyrion, I’m sure we can absolutely count on Joffrey to be as offensive and idiotic as humanly possible, because duh. It’s pretty much his thing, I’d say. I would be gleefully looking forward to it as well, except for how the whole thing is probably going to end in (a) tears and (b) excessive amounts of collateral damage. Sigh.

Aside from the overwhelmingly likely possibility of dear young Joffy jamming his snotty little foot directly down his own esophagus, I am quite interested to see what happens (assuming we ever get that far) with this whole sham of an investigation into Elia’s murder. Because it surely is a sham, as I’m about 99% sure I remember that when Tyrion first set this thing up in the first place, he thought to himself how he already knew it was his own father Tywin who ordered Clegane to kill Elia and her kids. So I guess the only question is whether Tyrion is really planning to sell his own father down the river there, or if he plans to punt the blame to someone else.

I’m sure Tywin thinks the latter, otherwise he’d never have allowed this whole thing to happen in the first place (um, assuming he could have, because I think Tyrion put the whole thing in motion before Tywin even got there, but anyway), but I can’t help wondering whether Tyrion might not have some nascent ideas about the opportunity he has here to throw dear old Dad under the metaphorical bus.

God knows if Tywin were my father I’d at least be considering it. The “dwarf’s penny” tax on whores? SUBTLE, Tywin. Ugh.

So, “Prince Oberyn”? As in “Oberon”? Interesting. Not sure it has any real significance, storyline-wise, but the (possible) reference caught my eye, so I thought I’d mention it.

Also interesting that he is apparently openly bisexual, and no one really seems to care, though that may be a by-product of his fearsome reputation (i.e. no one dares to bring it up/throw it in his face). Hmm.

Maybe I am having a massive brain fart here, but is this really the first time we’ve come across a character in this series who is not (entirely) heterosexual? I find that incredible, if so—and a little disappointing. (The thing with Dany and her maid doesn’t really count, in my opinion, for a number of reasons, the question of consent not the least among them.)

Anyway. I don’t know whether to be impressed or appalled at how skilled Tyrion is at playing off insults. It’s hardly the first time we’ve seen him do it, of course, but daaaaamn. Oberyn was going for the fucking gold here in trying to get a rise out of Tyrion, and Tyrion just sloughed it off every time. That is… wow.

I don’t know that I could ever have maintained my cool like that. But then, I’ve never really had to. I guess everyone has their own version of survival skills.

As for the thing with Cersei… well. I can’t say I’m surprised, but I can definitely make a kind of unshocked-yet-horrified noise that is sort of a mash-up of “ew” with “wow,” because, yeah.

(“Wew?” “wee-ow”? “Ewe”? Nevermind.)

And last but not least:

“The last [banner is] a golden feather on green checks.”

“A golden quill, ser. Jordayne of the Tor.”


*blink blink*

Is that a shoutout?

I… think that might be a shoutout.

Huh. Hah!

That’s sort of awesome. Heh.

And that’s the post! Have a weekend! Friday returneth next… er, Friday! Whoo!

Richard Boye
1. sarcastro
Oh, Leigh -

"Maybe I am having a massive brain fart here, but is this really the first time we’ve come across a character in this series who is not (entirely) heterosexual? I find that incredible, if so—and a little disappointing."

Nope - we've meet one couple of deeply enamoured same sex characters, hiding in plain sight. That's not a spoiler, by the way.
2. Vallessir
No love for poor ol' Dickon Manwoody?
Steven Halter
3. stevenhalter
chapter 37: Jaime--Well, just sit right down and start scrubbing, Jaime--still not very considerate of the feelings of others. Being unable to even manage a scrub brush with his left hand does put in a vote for extreme right handedness.
So there was a story of Aerion Brightfire rising renewed from the fire--maybe Dany had an inkling of what she was doing when she walked into the pyre.So, Jaime saved the city from burning as well as slaying the mad king. Hippocras is a Roman spiced wine. Interesting word choice. I wonder if Bolton is using Roman leagues (1.4 miles) or modern (3 miles) is his statement that there are a thousand leagues between his land and the Lannisters--kind of a big difference. Bolton wed a Frey daughter already. There's another link in that thread of things. Bolton and Frey again. "Oh, trout makes for a tasty supper."
4. TG12
That's definitely a shout-out (I'm 99% sure Martin has acknowledged that specific one, somewhere or another); there are, in fact, a number of others sprinkled throught the text of ASoIaF...
Irene Hipo
5. zambi76
Nope - we've meet one couple of deeply enamoured same sex characters, hiding in plain sight. That's not a spoiler, by the way.
They are even hiding in this Tyrion chapter again.
6. Fenric25
In regards to the matter of non-heterosexual characters in the series-Prince Oberyn Martell is not the first character, there was also Ser Lyn Corbray of the Vale back in the first book (which Leigh mentioned), there are two characters that are in a secret same-sex relationship (not so secret in the TV show as many readers don't catch this relationship upon the first read, took me two reads to pick up on it myself), and there were those two Ibbenese guards at Shae's manse in the second book that were fond of one another. Aside from that once incident between Daenerys and Irri, I can't think of any other same-sex characters.

As for Shout-Outs-yep, House Jordayne of the Tor was a deliberate shout out as Robert Jordan had given GRRM one of the first great reviews of Game of Thrones, giving the series a readership boost. There's another out-right shout out to him in the next book, won't spoil it yet...:)
Vincent Lane
7. Aegnor

"Maybe I am having a massive brain fart here, but is this really the first time we’ve come across a character in this series who is not (entirely) heterosexual? I find that incredible, if so—and a little disappointing."

I'll use the same argument I used when you brought this up in WoT. You don't know enough about enough characters to even know if they are gay or not. I mean, there could have been a deeply in-love male gay couple in this story and you might not even notice it.
Chris Nelly
8. Aeryl
Dorne is partially a desert(Sands are the bastard name for that region), so when I met Oberyn(who I LOVE btw) I just thought it was the Dornish way to be a little more licentious, what with the no clothes and all.
Zorila Desufnoc Eht
9. AlirozTheConfused
Oh dear, it appears,

That Leigh with Jaime is smitten

Compared to her bared despite

Seems she cared, and prepared; to give her hate respite.

And yay, I must say

"Let it be written"

Which be, eye-eye-arr-see

The words of the house Jordayne.

Rob Munnelly
10. RobMRobM
Yes, a big shoutout to RJ, who gave AGOT a rave that helped it become a big hit. Note Lord Jordayne's daughter is some variant of Maria, a shoutout to the lady of MAFO fame.

Re not entirely heterosexual - yes, it would be truly incredible if there were none before this. Furthermore, this deponent sayeth not.

I just love this entree into the world of Dorne, which we haven't seen before. It's kind of telling that Dorne's bastard name is "Sand" - hot and desert-y much? Tyrion is probably understating the shock the court will face with an unmarried, openly coupled relationship between a noble and a bastard.
11. Isengrim
Sarcastro is correct - although at this point in the narrative it would be quite easy to miss. There are a couple of less subtle hints later on I believe.

The show was.. less subtle in portraying that particular relationship.
Rob Munnelly
12. RobMRobM
I'll pass on much talk about the Jaime chapter, other than every interaction between Brienne and Jaime is comic gold.
13. Zizoz
No one remembers Xaro Xhoan Daxos?
Vincent Lane
14. Aegnor
Regarding Jamie, I do think concern for the people of Kings Landing. I'm not suggesting he'd be concerned about any particular commoner, but the mass murder of thousands upon thousands of innocent people, via immoliation, I think was too much for Jamie.
José Schenkel
14. Joosche
"Maybe I am having a massive brain fart here..."Thank God no work colleague here asked me why I was laughing. How I would explain this?
Chris Nelly
15. Aeryl
Also, Leigh, I respect your stubborn refusal to get on the Jaime train. Even though you acknowledge it was Ned's unwillingness to do to the similiar to Cersei's children that was done to Bran that caused this WHOLE mess in the first place.
Irene Hipo
16. zambi76
The problem is Leigh has early on erroneously decided that the people involved in that relationship are straight, and once made, it's hard to be dissuaded of such a notion again.
Rob Munnelly
17. RobMRobM
One other point re book v. HBO show differences - the info dropped in the Jaime chapter about Aerys appears in one of the middle episodes in Season One. This reaffirms why the HBO show is dangerous, as Jaime's character is supported at a much earlier point in the story (2/3 way through ASOS v. 1/2 through AGOT), changing the story dynamics.
18. AllHailTheDragonQueen
Yep, George loves his shout outs and tips of the hat. In interviews George always delights in telling people that the 3 Stooges are in book one if you can find them, and in one of the nine free cities (Qohor I believe), they worship the Black Goat, which fans of Lovecraft will recognize.
Chris Nelly
19. Aeryl
@16, I hope not, cuz there are some zingers coming up!
Rob Munnelly
20. RobMRobM
By the way, nice Midsummer Night's Dream shoutout in the jump text. Oberon FTW.
22. Suttree
Yes that is a shout out. A number of those sprinkled throughout.
Sky Thibedeau
23. SkylarkThibedeau
Roll over for spoiler-ish text: After the TV Show The king's Rainbow Cloaks make a lot more sense now.
Steven Halter
24. stevenhalter
Chapter 38: Tyrion--Meet the Dornes. Ah, the ever pressing challenge of properly seating everyone at a wedding. Even more pressing when some of them might kill you.The "Red Viper of Dorne"--cool nickname. Much better than "the Imp" or "the Kingslayer". Shows some imagination anyway. It sounds like Oberyn's sister was murdered by Gregor Clegane (or at least that he helped somehow). This wedding is shaping up to be very interesting. The Viper does seem pretty confident to be riding into a strange city and seemingly vastly outnumbered.
George Jong
25. IndependentGeorge
I know this is outside protocol, but if Leigh or another Tor editor is reading the comments, I'd like to request three chapters next week. I'm not being greedy - it's just that Chapters 40 & 41 really belong together, so if it's not possible, I'd rather have only one chapter next week than have Chapters 40 & 41 split the week after. I can't elaborate much without spoiling, so let it suffice to say that the two chapters are far better read together than individually.

@13 - Speaking only for myself, XXD really isn't a particularly memorable character. Or, as fans of the show like to call him, Zorro Zohan Ducksauce (an infinitely cooler name).

And with this chapter, Leigh really needs to extend her recaps to the show when she watches them. Even better if she can do it in the Tor offices so that her snickering colleagues can capture her reactions to episode 05 on film for posterity.
Rob Munnelly
26. RobMRobM
Hey Leigh - you're quoted in an article re the role of magic in GRRM on the smartpop books site - very cool. But spoilers all the way to ADWD, so no reading for you.

"....Similarly, Tor blogger Leigh Butler expressed the sentiment that Martin seemed almost afraid to commit, in terms of how much magic to put in the series. In her penultimate “A Read of Ice and Fire” post, Leigh’s reaction to the birth of the dragons was: “Daaaamn, y’all. So apparently magic is not so much nonexistent in Martin’s world after all!”

EDIT - actually, an except from an essay published in the Beyond the Wall compilation book issued last year. Tres cool.
Marie Veek
27. SlackerSpice
@3: Aerion Brightfire has been mentioned before, actually, when Davos is talking to Alester Florent in their cell.

"He is always with the red woman, and... and he is not in his right mind, I fear. This talk of a stone dragon... madness, I tell you, sheer madness. Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists?"

So I'm thinking it *really* wasn't a success.
28. Amy Farmer
As far as the 1st character not completely straight, you might want to back and reread all the appearances of and comments about a certain flowery knight and his brother-in-law (hint, the knight's sister is now a widow but still a maiden).
Thomas Simeroth
29. a smart guy
@28 Way too much hinting!! Take it to the spoiler thread.
Thomas Simeroth
30. a smart guy
Umm... Sorry for the double post, but it also appears that this post never got officially listed in "The Read of Ice and Fire" series. Moderators, please fix this.
31. AllHailTheDragonQueen
Yeah, mods were going to need both 28 and 23 need whiteing out.
32. Auga
Quit with the patronizing hints, people. I'm fairly sure Leah meant that question to be rhetorical. Nudges and hints are spoilers too. You probably didn't have someone going nudge nudge wink wink to you or indulgent sighs of "Oh, X..." all the time you were reading this book for the very first time, so don't do it to Leah.

Why do so many think nudges aren't spoilers as long as they don't outright name names? If anything nudges are worse, as outright spoilers are probably going to get quickly caught by the mods, whereas nudges are sneakier. It's not ok. And you are not a teacher, and Leah is not a student you are trying to coax to the right answer. Did you read the books with someone doing that you? Probably not.

And I don't just mean for the comments on this post, which is relatively mild so far; there are some serial "nudgers" who regularly do this week in week out. Earlier this year there was an awful torrent of them. Dearest Nudgers, we get it. You've read the books. You know what happens. Good for you. Here's your pat on the head. Now quit nudging, please!
33. sofrina
i thought it was "aerion brightflame"
34. TBGH
Beatings for all of you, if Leigh figures *that* out from the comments and not from the text I will be most put out.
Rob Munnelly
35. RobMRobM
Strongly support IG's suggestion at @25. He's correct that those two chapters really should be read together.

Te this post, also support Auga @32. It's one thing to suggest Leigh might possibly have missed something in her reading, another to point her in a more or less precise direction. In that regard, the mods really should white out @ 23. Much too direct of a hint.
Chris Cangoodly
36. TheHardestTruth
I have never posted a spoiler and I am not defending blatant spoiling but all these recent borderline obsessive (its getting frightening) wannabe Spoiler Police need to shut UP. They make. Me ill. Just because Leigh hasn't put two and two together yet regarding a certain ...situation ...does NOT make it a spoiler!!! It has ALREADY

HAPPENED. I'm sick of all the calls for white outs andx mods and Spoiler Policing Net Nanny Weirdos!!! Give it a REST. I'm sure this will be deleted despite its total lack of profanity or vulgarity or namecalling but I hope the jist of the message at least gets seen by the chronic wanna be spoiler cops that have been bringing this reread down with their increasingly angsty faux-angsty, superemely irritating and cringeworthy whining.

If it upsets you so much let the MODS do it. They have eyes. Are you so arrogant to believe they need YOUR help? hese aren't state secrets here or North Korea's plans and schematics for nuclear missles here - its a FANTASY book seires! GROW UP, Spoiler Cop Wannabees!
George Jong
37. IndependentGeorge
@27 - Jeor Mormont also mentions Aerion Brightflame in COK, in discussing how Aemon abdicated the throne in favor of his brother:
"...The next brother was Aerion."

"Aerion the Monstrous?" Jon knew that name. "The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon" was one of Old Nan's more gruesome tales. His little brother Bran had loved it.

"The very one, though he named himself Aerion Brightflame. One night, in his cups, he drank a jar of wildfire, after telling his friends it would transform him into a dragon, but the gods were kind and it transformed him into a corpse."
The Queen of Thornes also makes a brief mention of him in SOS, when she questioned Sansa about Joffrey:
"...Aerion Brightflame was comely enough, but a monster all the same."
Yuriev Olmos
38. Baikala
I imagine Leigth waits at least a couple of hours before reading any comments so the mods/coworkers can have some time to blank out spoilery material. Or she may be reading a screened version of the comments if she is reading them at all.
Otherwise, some of the serial "nudgers" would have, by now, spoiled a lot of details/plot-reveals for her, and she doesn't seem aware of them at all.
39. Auga
@36, I think you need grow up yourself if you can't post without insulting people. Spoilers and nudges are serious things. Leah has said she does not want any spoilers. She also repeately says throughout the blog series that she does not want nudges and hints to help her figure things out.

Why can't you respect her and her wishes? If you don't, why are you even reading this?
George Jong
40. IndependentGeorge
@36 - the fact that it is necessary to remind people what the lines on spoilers are each week seems to bely your rant. It doesn't matter that a particular plot event has already happened - it matters that Leigh hasn't figured it out herself yet, and so pointing it out to her most definitely is a spoiler. Leigh has said so herself in her recaps - and I quote:
(Note: That is NOT an invitation to list in the comments ASOIAF characters I may meet in the future who are gay. Spoilers Bad, y’all. Shh!)
Marie Veek
41. SlackerSpice
@37: Sounds like a real charmer, that one. (Or at least a nominee for the "Hold my Booze and Watch This" award.)
George Jong
42. IndependentGeorge
@41 - or, the single greatest "pull my finger" joke of all time.
Bridget McGovern
43. BMcGovern
@TheHardestTruth #36: I do appreciate some of your points, but again, we try to keep things as civil as possible around here, and the tone of your post seemed a bit overheated.

@Everyone: Leigh has told me that she usually skims through the comments, but doesn't necessarily read them all every week--partially because she wants to avoid spoilers but also (I'm assuming) due to general lack of time. We keep her pretty busy, obviously :)

As one of the moderators, I do find it extremely helpful when people flag comments that they find offensive or problematic. Irene and I both have various other duties at, so we can't monitor every active thread constantly. I will also say that flagging is a much more efficient way of getting our attention than calling us (or each other) out in the comments. So that's the situation, if anyone was wondering--hope that helps clarify things a bit!
44. Ryamano
On the shoutouts, Leigh didn't pick the one on House Vance. Karyl Vance has appeared since A game of thrones and has appeared in this book as well, in the chapter where the funeral of Lord Tully happens. Jack Vance is an important fantasy author as well.
Chris Nelly
45. Aeryl
I'm gonna say that my fave is one that a commentor(forget which one, claim it if it's you!) made about the fact that Robb Stark(as in Tony) married a Westerling, who's mother is a Spicer, with a pepper pot(i,e, Pepper Potts) on their banner.
Chris Cangoodly
46. TheHardestTruth
@39 - Please reread my post. If you do, you will see that I specifically said that I had never posted a spoiler and that imo there was no defense for blatant spoiler-posting.

My issue is the attitude of the commenters who act like Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry: SPOILER COP and act as if it is ruining their lives.

I have issue as well with them doing so in the first place. The Mods here are EXCELLENT. They have eyes and will see to the spoilers.

They do not need ''help.''

Perhaps my BIGGEST issue, though is people who do not understand accurately what a spoiler technically EVEN IS.

FACT - if it has ALREADY HAPPENED in the book, it is not a spoiler.

FACT - If it has already been read by the blogger, but that blogger has not put it together yet, it hasn't clicked yet for him or her, that does NOT make it still a spoiler until they figure it out.

If it has already been read by Leigh, but she is still in the dark about it because the light bulb as to its relevance hasn't clicked on for her yet, it is fair game to still discuss it in the comments.

A spoiler is not defined by when the blogger becomes aware of its relevance. A spoiler is defined by chronological placement. If LB has already reread - its not a spoiler. Simple as that.
Chris Cangoodly
47. TheHardestTruth
@BMGovern - sorry, didn't see your post. If you are saying that the mods DO appreciate the assistance - then I apologize.

Perhaps a fairer discussion sometime might be - as I tried to do above - what EXACTLY a spoiler is and is not.
Chris Nelly
48. Aeryl
You are ignoring Leigh's wishes in this matter, which was pointed out. She does not want to be informed of things she has not figured out on her own. Full Stop.

That means hints and nudges that may lead her towards figuring it out are, for the purposes of this read, spoilers.
Rob Munnelly
49. RobMRobM
@46 - through the course of 2.5 books of this re-read, we've collectively defined spoiler differently than that. I'd prefer not to abandon that at this point.
50. Auga
@46, I can't reread your post, because it seems to have been deleted by a moderator, no doubt due to your language and caps lock abuse.

And yes, I know you claim not to have been a spoiler or nudger, but you were endorsing them. You said quite clearly that they were ok. That is what I was referring to. It doesn't matter whether an event is in the history or in the future. It has not been made explicit in the books, ergo it is a spoiler. If it's also a secret Leah hasn't cottoned onto, it is a spoiler.

And the moderators have said they can't police the comment threads 24/7, which is pretty understandable. Plus, many of the nudges are sneaky and may pass by casual scrutiny if they don't contain names. There are also a lot more nudging posts than there are "spoiler cop" posts. Leah has said she does not want any hints in the comments, and everyone should respect this.
Bridget McGovern
51. BMcGovern
@TheHardestTruth and Auga: The post in question has been republished, but I do think we need to dial down the rhetoric here on all sides. It's a discussion, guys, not a war. Let's not let things get personal and out of hand, okay?
Nisheeth Pandey
53. Nisheeth
@46 & 47, TheHardeestTruth:
I would say Spoiler is something that Spoils the fun of the story, the reading, or of finding things. So even if it has happened, and Leigh hasn't found it out yet, revealing it to her would constitute a spoiler
Didn't see your post at 52.
Dirk Walls
54. dirk
You're reading too slow!

( I feel like the little kid in The Princes Bride)
55. andNowMyWatchBegins
House Manwoody!
All Hail the Bastard of Kingsgrave!

@37 I have been reading the prequel novellas and Aerion shows up in that which is great.

also if you open up to the fact that characters could be homosexual then there is plenty of innuendo to be found. Fo those of you who have got through aDwD and havent checked out the podcast oof Ice and Fire I highly reccommend it (Especially as they rep House Manwoody!)
Chris Cangoodly
56. TheHardestTruth
My final word - in both my previous post I have said that I don't post spoilers or ''nudge'' (Good God what Gen Z word) and I also wrote that I do NOT excuse the posting of spoilers.

What I said was that it might be best to leave it to the Mods. One Mod then said they appreciate the help - so I am cool with that now. Their rules.

My big things are how ridiculously OTT the Spoiler Police (the holier than though, outraged commenters - not the Mods) act.

And, my biggest issue is the sad realization that I think became clear today that sooo many people here do not understand what a TRUE ''Spoiler'' actually is.

I am going to post things that have significance to the plot that LB hasn't realized yet - IF - and only if - they have ALREADY HAPPENED.

If a mod says that counts as a spoiler to them, I will quit.

I don't think in ANY ''Read Blog'' that it should be still considered a spoiler UNTIL the blogger has the light bulb go on for him or her as to its significance to the plot - IF the Read Blogger has ALREADY read it!

Unless Im told different, I'll hold to that.

We always have before...
57. andNowMyWatchBegins
@56 and the rest.

If Leigh has not worked it out put it in the spoiler thread, it avoids any concerns about spoilers and still allows people to discuss the books as Leigh experiences them
Chris Cangoodly
58. TheHardestTruth
@53 I totally see what you are saying. It just seems tenuously openended to me, but that could just be me - in which the fault is mine.

Look, since time (well, the internet) began, Silly Spoiler Wars and arguments over what constitutes a Spoiler have raged...I had actually thought THIS site had grown beyond that...recent weeks have sadly proven me wrong.

To me it is basically what the Mods define as a Spoiler goes.
Chris Nelly
59. Aeryl
Why does the mod matter, when the person writing the blog has stated that things that have relevance but haven't been realized by her, is spoiling? Shouldn't it be up to the person you are spoiling?
Vincent Lane
60. Aegnor
The problem is Leigh has early on erroneously decided that the people involved in that relationship are straight, and once made, it's hard to be dissuaded of such a notion again.
Yeah, I think you are right, and I know what scene you are talking about. In her recap she essentially said the exact opposite of what the text actually said. "Character A ignored character B and focused on character C." Her recap said "Character A ignored character C and focused on character B." That single misreading has poisoned the well, so to speak.

I still think she'll figure it out before the end of this book though.
61. Auga
1. Given that the mods have whitened out everything, that would imply they do actually consider it a spoiler.

2. You are exaggerating this "spoiler police." I think I have only posted about three times on this in the last entire twelve months, and I'm probably the one who does that the most. The nudges happen almost every week, however, so I think you are directing your quite bewildering caps lock anger at the wrong people.

3. Most nudges are about future events, particularly ones in this book as that is what Leah is reading. A couple of months ago, there were a lot of posts about something in the not too distant future. You probably know what I am talking about. They often also fit into a grey area where they may be spoiler-legal, as they don't name names, but they fail to be spoiler-moral, as they aim to deliberately draw Leah's attention to something in the hopes that she will figure it out.

Is that something you can flag as a spoiler? They may not be telling Leah "X happens", but her attention is being artificially and deliberately drawn to things that most readers don't catch. It's like reading a murder mystery and having your attention drawn to the relevant clues by someone which then allows you to work out who did it.

If you tell Leah clue Y is important, she could use that to guess Plot Twist X. Thus depriving her of the surprise, and Martin certainly expects us to be surprised the first time round and smile at the clues the second time. But nudges deprive Leah of those moments of surprise.

And I don't know why I have to keep saying this (and others have said it for me), but Leah does not want the nudges! I've just written a whole paragraph about why they are so insidious, but really, it should be enough that this is Leah's blog, and she has said she doesn't want them. End of story.

And if you can think of a better term than nudges, be my guest.
Vincent Lane
62. Aegnor

Be sure to take note of IndependentGeorge's post @25. It is important that she either do 3 chapters next week, or do 1 next week, and then 2 the following (I'm sure it's obvious which we'd prefer :)

If you can get that info to Leigh it would help out.
63. MJF
This is one of my favourite Tyrion scenes in the whole series; his mental commentary on the situation is such a great portrait of his entire character. "Gods, I hope not" indeed.
George Jong
64. IndependentGeorge
I almost forgot - one of my favorite lines was in this chapter.
"As children Elia and I were inseperable, much like your own brother and sister."

Gods, I hope not.

I cackled out loud on that one.
65. Auga
And for the record, I'm all for toning down the rhetoric, but you are the one who is shouting here. And er...

"I'm sick of all the calls for white outs andx mods and Spoiler Policing
Net Nanny Weirdos!!! Give it a REST. I'm sure this will be deleted
despite its total lack of profanity or vulgarity or namecalling."

I confess I am almost curious about what you would consider name-calling, if "Spoiler Policing Net Nanny Weirdos" doesn't count. But I'm not, so hopefully this is the end of it.

And for the record also, I was horrifically spoiled for something later (your first guess is probably right), and so I take spoilers very seriously. There's a whole spoiler thread to frolic on. And it should be clear: if Leah hasn't realized something that is a secret in the text, whether past or future, let her read on and figure it out herself. I don't get what is so complicated about that. If you're in doubt about whether it's spoilery or not, err on the side of doubt and post in the Spoiler Thread.
Leigh Butler
66. leighdb
Hey y'all,

For the record, what Bridget said about my comment-reading policy is essentially correct - I do generally only skim them, and only after there's been enough of a delay for the mods to catch items that are too spoilery. I wish I could read them more comprehensively, but, well, I've found that that's not always a good idea. Auga's statements @ 61 about what I would prefer not to see are pretty much right on the money. Even if he/she didn't quite get my name right. ;)

I *do* appreciate that you guys take the time to comment, though!


IndependentGeorge @ 25: your request (which Bridget brought to my attention) is duly noted.
67. Auga
Argh, sorry, Leigh, that is really stupid of me!!!! I read this every week, so I should know. I have a close friend called Leah, though, so that must be the reason. *is stupid*
Adam Whitehead
68. Werthead
Re: the shout-out.

Yes, GRRM continues to give props to Jordan to this day for blurbing AGoT, which apparently drove up sales of the paperback enormously. Having a RJ quote really made a big difference back in the day (it is also credited with making J.V. Jones's debut trilogy a best-seller pretty much by itself). GRRM's also pointed out that he picked up a lot of new readers through the Legends anthology, where tons of people read that book to read the original version of New Spring, then ended up reading GRRM's The Hedge Knight and getting into ASoIaF that way as well.

Robert Jordan and GRRM corresponded fairly frequently, to my understanding. On the Dragonmount blog, RJ said he was a fan of GRRM's books, and pointed out that GRRM wrote epic fantasy differently to how he would (presumably a reference to the more overt sexuality) but that life would be very boring if everyone wrote the same way. GRRM, to my knowledge, has only read the first WoT book and chose not to continue whilst the series remained incomplete. When RJ passed away in 2007, GRRM wrote a memorial for him on his website.

They also did one joint convention appearance together in the early 2000s, where GRRM explained the reason the ASoIaF novels were coming out so slowly was because he was having to write WoT at the same time, because Robert Jordan was making more money writing books under the pen-name 'David Eddings'. I think that was mean to be a zinger :)
Genevieve Williams
69. welltemperedwriter
I'll pass on much talk about the Jaime chapter, other than every interaction between Brienne and Jaime is comic gold.
I think Jaime and Brienne need their own show. An odd-couple buddy road movie in a medieval setting.

I would watch the hell out of that.
70. Syrio
But it's a Golden Quill on green checks, so it's both a shout out and perhaps a swipe at how money money RJ was making on the books?
Chris Nelly
71. Aeryl
@69, When I finished S2 I hadn't read any of the books yet, and the show revealed that Jaime was with Brienne sooner. I shouted "The Jaime & Brienne Road Show! AWESOME!" I knew those two would play well off one another.
72. DMAC
I just love Bronn's comments to Podrick in this chapter re: reading..."It ruins your sword-eye boy!"
73. Nessa
OMG, I didn't even notice the shoutout to RJ until now! Yeesh, I'm always missing things on my reads.

On a somewhat related note, I wish people would quit hinting at spoilers everytime they think Leigh isn't picking up things fast enough. Just because you don't say it right out doesn't make it any less a spoiler.

Anyway, sermon aside, I think what I liked most in these chapters is Tyrion bantering with Oberyn. Jaime's confession is a close second, but I'm always a sucker for character-establishing moments, and Oberyn's is hilarious. I'm not sure I actually 'like' him (he's not all that nice), but he's one of those characters who's always a "spectacle", and I love reading about him. Can't wait to hear more about Leigh's thoughts on him in the later chapters.
Chris Nelly
74. Aeryl
I like Oberyn, b/c his motivations are simple and focused, which makes him a rare commodity in these books, even if he's not always nice. He immediately establishes himself as a man who does what he wants, with Ellyria, and that he will go after what he wants.
Chris Cangoodly
75. TheHardestTruth
@73 - But if it has already been READ by LB, then it isn't a Spoiler anymore. People here are trying to make it to where it is still a spoiler until the lightbulb clicks for LB as to the plot significance of what she has read - and that is very rificulous.

Something can't be a spoiler if it has already happened.

If that thing that has already happened just isn't seen in its full light yet by the Reader - well, that is just too bad. We ain't holding our lips till the light goes off for ya, lol ;-)
76. Nessa
@74: I love his bluntness too, especially combined with his sharp jabe at Tyrion (both the overt ones and also the more underhanded ones). Also, his relationship with Elia and his desire to get vengeance for her is really touching. With all the incest and hatred amongst the Lannister siblings, you almost lose sight of "family" love (not that kind!) but Oberyn brings it back.

@76: People define spoilers differently. Lots of things that happen in the book are hinted at very early on. If they're all fair game to speak of, then we won't have any major spoilers at all. Leigh has already said she prefers not to read about hidden things in the book until she has figured them out. Since this is her read of ice and fire, and not yours, it's her interpretation of "spoilers" that matters (not yours). Sorry. If you really want to talk about them, you can always just go to the spoiler thread. Otherwise, your posts are just going to get whited out by the mods, whether you like it or not.
Steven Halter
77. stevenhalter
Anything that someone hasn't realized yet is a spoiler to that person--especially if they have said explicitly that they don't want spoilers.
I read all of the comments until they start looking like spoilers and then I skip that poster for that thread.
Zorila Desufnoc Eht
78. AlirozTheConfused
"If that thing that has already happened just isn't seen in its full
light yet by the Reader - well, that is just too bad. We ain't holding
our lips till the light goes off for ya, lol ;-)"

I suppose the question boils down to this:

Is this A Read Of Ice And Fire;

or the personal read of the Butler miss?

If the former; T.H.T speaks truth entire

With reason and logic, it must be said

but if the latter; then Countess Butler Von Leigh

makes the relevant rules; not her minion undead

which is us. Anyways, to measure and weigh

This conundrum; it comes down to this:

Is this or isn't this the personal read of the Butler miss?
Steven Halter
79. stevenhalter
It isn't just the read of Leigh, but it is the read of Ice and Fire not the reread. So, any knowledge that has been gained from reading ahead is off limits.
If you are rereading this, then you posess knowledge of things that may not be apparent in the text at this moment. You get to do things like google your suspicions and ask things in the spoiler thread. These are big advantages.
80. Gesar
Anyway based on the number of reactions and the specificity of the quoting, there's litterally no way not to be a little influenced. I'd advise to tell Leigh not to read anything here... If you don't do that, at least whiteout #5 and #6^^
81. Gesar
Yeah I just noticed that she already answered around comment 60, so never mind that.

I think TheHardestTruth has a problem with semantics. Yeah theories, proven or unproven, aren't spoilers. Just because they aren't, doesn't mean it's cool. For example, I'm fairly certain that Varys is connected in some way to what happens under the sea in Westeros, and I don't think he's human. Whether I'm right or wrong, that's not a spoiler, yet I wouldn't want Leigh to come to think about this because of me, since she has never been on that path herself, and that would go against the whole "first read impressions", which is kind of the point of this blog.
Chris Nelly
82. Aeryl
@75, The problem here seems to be that you are misinformed. This is not a reread where all topics are available. This is the first time for Leigh and several commenters who are reading along, so things that haven't been read are clearly out of bounds, and information that is made explicit are absolutely considered spoilers.
Chris Cangoodly
83. TheHardestTruth
@77 - You said: 'Anything that someone hasn't realized yet is a spoiler to that person--''

I STRONGLY disagree with this. In fact, I find this remark ludicrous.

But - you guys are definitely right that this is the READ and not the REREAD and that what is important is LB and other first time readers not have their initial experience ruined. I can totally get behind that and respect it.

If my posts were read, you know that I have never personally posted a spoiler - I'm just not down with the rather OTT reactions it inspires, but its all good! Life continues... :)
Faiz Imam
84. FaizImam

I think that if someone has read a work to completion then discussing something they missed is clearly not a spoiler. But during the process it really is.

Despite 2 reads, I didn't figure it out till the show, and I would consider someone telling me a "spoiler" since it has spoiled the relevant fact.

I think the HBO show spoiled the Book for me, but obviously i hold no ill will of any kind.

The definition of Spoil is "Diminish or destroy the value or quality of"

By discussing something that someone has not figured out, but may do so in the near future, you are spoiling it for them.

I think that part is important. If by the end of SOS she still missed it, I will be more sympethetic of your position. But right now I think that any comment that makes Leigh not want to read what we write should be censored.

I come here for her words much more than any of yours. There are a million and one other places where we can discuss the details to our hearts content(most obviously the spoiler thread)
85. MikeOfThePalace
RE: Jordayne of the Tor

It's only mentioned in the House geneology's at the back of the books (and it might only be in later books), but the Lord of House Jordayne is named "Trebor." Reverse the spelling if you don't get it.
Steven Halter
86. stevenhalter
@83:You are, of course, free to feel whatever you want. However, since you present no argument, I am free to believe your case to be strongly suspect.
1) No spoilers of any type is the stated policy. That is the rule in this series.
1a) For this read Leigh is the yardstick to measure a statements spoiler-factor against.
2) Something which lessens the joy of discovery of the work at hand (spoils it) is by definition a spoiler.*
2) If a person has not realised an item X, they have not discovered it.
3) Pointing out said item X to said person prevents them from that discovery.
4) See point 1.

* While it is true that person Y may not perceive statement S as a spoiler, person Z may see the same statement as very much a spoiler. So, when in doubt, again see point 1.

** The universe of discourse being this particular read. For a completely distinct universe of discourse, see the Rothfuss ReRead where the rule is--There are no spoilers. There anything goes and the joy of discovery is finding anything new. No word goes unturned.
Nathan Love
87. n8love
Been lurking this read for a while now. Contributor to some others (see @86,**), first time here (Waves at Shalter and RobM). Had to jump in for this one.

@many re:spoiler semantics:
tl;dr. Stop internetting on my good sites. There is an uncritiqued youtube video somewhere; gogetem.

I kid because I care.

Tor has always been one of the refreshingly civil places for many of us. What's more, keeping comments from getting too meta (like this one is) helps keep these things from happening. Assume we are in-world, and know only what we know at the point we're at. I know it sounds hard, but it's really similar to any other suspension of reality you use when reading and it also tends to be really fun. Who is this "Grrm" you speak of? If spoilers trouble you, have you not tried salting your meats? You must teach me of these "Mods" you cry out to, that I may worship and entreat them as well.

Okay, maybe not that far, but the point is that you can't spoil what you don't know. You can totally pretend you don't know things. I, for instance, have decided to forget that Boondock Saints has a sequel. Come to think of it, I blame you all for reminding me.
Rob Munnelly
88. RobMRobM
n8love - welcome, and well played. Praying to "Mods" - brilliant.

Let's move on from the meta talk re spoilers, can we? We've worked on rules on this re-read that work, even though not all agree with them, and our powerful Mods accept the rules. Stop fighting the power and get back to the story.

*looks back at the book* - Myria Jordayne - MAFO FTW. Note that Myria is the heir to the house seat. Perhaps Dorne is more progressive than other parts of Westeros? *Looks back at text* "When my mother ruled in Dorne...." Definitely more progressive.

Love Bronn's knightly sigil - a flaming chain for a hero of the Blackwater. LOL.

Really like the contrast between brothers set up here - firy Oberyn and his "patient, prudent and gouty" older brother Doran.

"Fat flower" referring to Lord Tyrell - LOL! And really like the discussion re Willas Tyrell. He probably would have made Sansa a great husband, more's the pity.
Rob Munnelly
89. RobMRobM
Re spoiler policy - on the other hand we're up to 88 posts already. Perhaps we can reach a new weekly record.
Sara H
90. LadyBelaine
I know, I know, I know we are supposed to move on, but I have a general question about this meta-discussion:

I don't really see why the comment way back at #1 had to be whited out since it was a direct, yet vague and neutral, answer to a question Leigh herself posed.

But here's my actual "gripe" about the super-cozy anti-spoiler envelope here - suppose hypothetically I too was a first time reader and I also discovered something that was an answer one of the tantalizing plot mysteries and I suggested my theory here! Would it get wiped because it's a "spoiler" because other readers haven't puzzled it out yet? That just seems a little weird.

I mean, I was a participant on usenet when these books were being rolled out real time and people were suggesting answers and theories from the books with textual evidence - is that "spoiling" the story for others? Would someone from laying out a detailed theory about, I dunno, what happened to Princess Rhaenys' kitten as a suggested theory get wiped as a spoiler? That just seems unfair and excessive. There are spoilers and there is honest, well-intended discussion and they are not mutually exclusive.

Anyway -

I will say that I really enjoyed the banter between Tyrion and Oberyn, I really just sort of dig everything Dornish. So spicy and ribald and colorful and sandy and exotic. They use spears. They have round shields. They have fire wine and dragon peppers!

Also, I would also note that Cersei as a child must have been an absolute delight.
Chris Nelly
91. Aeryl
From what I've seen, most the noobs are known, so when they speculate a little too well, it's left alone so as not to give it away.

If you were a new reader, I would recommend just stating that your post is speculation only, and I'm sure it would be left to stand.

Ther was a small discussion in the spoiler thread about a statement that popped out as spoilery to someone, but a new reader said it, so it's still there.
92. noodles
"Oberyn says Ellaria is interested in sharing."

I interpreted this as Ellaria wanted to share a woman with Oberyn. I don't think you can assume that they are referring to another man - unless I am misreading the original text.
Chris Mattox
93. SerBastard
Wow, almost 100 commentws in a day? I guess I got some catching up reading for the weekend.
Irene Hipo
94. zambi76
I interpreted this as Ellaria wanted to share a woman with Oberyn. I don't think you can assume that they are referring to another man - unless I am misreading the original text.
Yes, in this instance there is talk about sharing a blond (northern and exotic by Dorne standards) woman. The Oberyn bisexual thing comes from: "His tourneys, his battles, his duels, his horses, his carnality ... it was said that he bedded men and women both ..."
Marie Veek
95. SlackerSpice
TBH, I never really considered the idea that Jaime was being anything but honest when he told Brienne about Aerys, considering he wonders at one point why he's bothering to tell her, amd mentions being feverish from the bath. We certainly know what Aerys told Rossart after the Battle of the Trident was likely true, as it's also one of the visions that Dany saw in the House of the Undying:

"Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. 'Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,' he said to a man below him. 'Let him be the king of ashes.'"

Also, Jaime killed the other pyromancers days after Aerys, likely to prevent them from carrying out Aerys's plans, or any other nasty little surprises he might have schemed up for Robert.

A few other points:

* Pyromancer Hallyne talked about the deaths of the pyromancers back in CoK, as well as finding part of Aery's 'farewell gift' under the Sept of Baelor (one of the places Jaime mentioned), and most of the stock from his day being lost (though I secretly hope it was found again.) Ironic that the weapon intended to destroy King's Landing ended up helping to save it years later. (Again, assuming that it was all rounded up...)

* "No Lannister has ever drowned in his bath, and I don't mean to be the first."
96. JoeNotCharles
Yes, I don't think Jaime was deliberately lying, but it's possible that he's building up his motives in his own recollections. I don't think he actually did it for his family's political advancement or anything like that, but he could have been relieved that Aerys finally gave him an excuse to break his oath and avoid having to kill his father, or something of the sort.

Regardless, I think the point of this detailed recollection is less to provide more justification for killing Aerys - which is hardly needed - as to explain two things: first, why he chose the timing he did (Aerys finally did something so dire that it pushed him over the edge) and second, to emphasize his predicament afterwards. There's no doubt that breaking his oath and killing Aerys is the best thing that Jaime ever did, and this confirms that he didn't do it for political reasons or for his family's glory, as so many suspect. And it's the very thing that people throw in his face as his greatest failing. That's got to mess with your sense of right and wrong.
97. Miriam1Elizabr
Even better? Ser Jordayne's entry in the list of characters at the end is as follows:
Trebor Jordayne of the Tor
Trebor is Robert backwards.
98. noodles
@94 - thanks! there's no misreading that!
Eugenie Delaney
99. EmpressMaude
re: the Robert Jordan shout-out.

Withdrawn - I realized it was in a future book. Thanks, Tower of the Hand!
100. Black Dread
@RobM - The HBO show is dangerous? I read this so long ago I can barely remember these scenes. Unless they start revealing stuff from The Winds of Winter, Leigh is the only fan of the books in the world who is behind the series.
Birgit F
101. birgit
Leigh is the only fan of the books in the world who is behind the series.

The series isn't available everywhere in the world. I still haven't seen it because in Germany it is on a TV channel I don't have (and a season behind).
Rob Munnelly
102. RobMRobM
@100 - and by the way, congrats for the one hunny - HBO show is dangerous in a couple of ways (I've noted these in prior posts before). Two key points.
- Information from later books can be told to the viewer long ahead of time. I gave the example above of mid-book 3 stuff being told mid-season 1. I'd bet large amounts of money we'll see some book 4 or even 5 info in Season 3. Leigh or other book newbies could well be spoiled early, disrupting the piece by piece telling that is one of the highlights of Martin's prose.
- The TV show tells a slightly different story in a compelling way, causing story confusion. We've seen this multiple times on this re-read posts. A statement of fact regarding a story detail that turns out, upon examination, to be from the TV show but not the books. This is the most dangerous point of all, from a re-read perspective, because the TV show imprints a particular form of story on the viewer and I'd like Leigh to have the freedom to develop her own take on it.

Does that help?

103. youguysareblind
"Maybe I am having a massive brain fart here, but is this really the first time we’ve come across a character in this series who is not (entirely) heterosexual? I find that incredible, if so—and a little disappointing."

Really? Renly and Loras were lovers...

This isnt specifically stated in the book, though it is fairly obvious if you read between the lines. and GRRM has confirmed it. As did the TV show.

Littlefinger makes speicifc remarks to renly about this during the tourney of the hand, about renly "friebnd" loras. and asking him if hell be having his friend later.
/highlight to read
Scott Silver
104. hihosilver28
@103. ... ...Well, someone didn't really read the previous 100 comments...or what's been going on for the entire read. Even with whiting it out, that comment was pretty unnecessary. In the future you may want to read what has been going on in the comment thread before posting something like that that divulges or seriously clarifies information that Leigh doesn't want clarified. Even if it is whited out. As people have stated, the spoiler thread is more than open to go and talk about the read in general and chortle about things Leigh has or hasn't seen. Because in the end, this comment doesn't really serve anyone. The ones of us who have read the entire series aren't going to reply due to respect for Leigh, and those who aren't caught up aren't going to highlight for the "spoiler". (I'm using spoiler in the general "spoil the discovery" terminology, TheHardestTruth)
105. AllHailTheDragonQueen
@ 103, also apparently you didnt read post 102 as the Littlefinger thing only happend in the TV show, and as such doesn't relate to this read.
106. dragonfire
I always thought Oberyn was a shout-out to Zelanzy's Chronicles of Amber?
Steven Halter
107. stevenhalter
Oberon is the king of the fairies in Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream." No idea if GRRM is shouting out to William. Sometimes a name is just a name. I don't see a big connection in either case.
108. phuzz
Just becuase I love muddying the waters; isn't pointing out the Robert Jordan shout out a bit of a spoiler? ;)
(It's certainly not something I noticed, but I've not read WoT yet)

Re Jamie: I always got the impression that he actually quite liked being infomous as the 'kingslayer' ('it has a nice ring don't you think?'). He's presumably had ample oportunity to explain that he killed Aerys to prevent him setting fire to the city, but it doesn't seem to be a widely known story.
I wonder if he bothered explaining his actions to anyone? Not even Cersi? Certainly the discovery of wildfire all over the place under the city seemed to come as a shock to Tyrion.
tatiana deCarillion
109. decarillion
Just a thought, but having Tywin for a father likely squelched any altruistic tendencies in Jamie, but there's always the 'nature' side of personality development.

Jamie's actions could have been altruistic, but there was no way he could have them perceived that way, especially by Tywin, so it was better (safer?) for him to play into the label of kingslayer/oathbreaker than a 'good' guy, in order to stay in his father's esteem (and Cersei's, as well).
Chris Nelly
110. Aeryl
I think being Tywin Lannister's oldest son prepared Jaime for a life of living in whatever box other people put him in, his father, Cersei, his brother, the Mad King, Ned Stark, and he's done his best to be the person other people percieve him as. It's only now, away from all their preconceptions and around a person whose opinion he doesn't "care" about, is he finally starting to learn who he is.
Vincent Lane
111. Aegnor

Jamie does not like being infamous as the Kingslayer. I think it is obvious from the internal dialog that we've seen from him so far that it really bothers him. But he is the type of personality that would never publically acknowledge that it bothered him.

And this is definitely not a widely known story. In fact, in the text here he says that he has never told anyone about it ever. And he also says why. It is the Kingsguard's job to keep the King's secrets. Including this one.
George Jong
112. IndependentGeorge
Jaime did exactly what Tyrion told Jon Snow to do in GOT: he took something shameful, and made it his own so that others couldn't hurt him with it. He didn't like being known as the kingslayer, but he embraced it as his identity purely as a defensive mechanism. Once he killed Aerys, he knew he was dishonored forever; the least he could do is make sure people feared him as well. Trying to justify it after-the-fact would just make him look weak.


I can think of one HUGE spoiler in the show unrelated to our discussion so far:

//Ian McIlhenny will very likely appear in this season's first episode as Arstan Whitebeard.// Leigh won't reach that point until mid-May.
Vincent Lane
113. Aegnor

Very good point regarding your spoiler text. I am embarrassed that I didn't figure that out before the reveal. It makes me feel better that I'm not alone in that.
Chris Nelly
114. Aeryl
@113, Me either. I spent the whole book wracking my brain, and it never clicked.
George Jong
115. IndependentGeorge
I didn't pick up on it, either, but it's so infuriatingly obvious in hindsight. I forsee much headdesking on May 10 or May 17, depending on how many chapters we get this week.

Will stop typing now.
116. Meraxes

"All that said, I wonder if Jaime will actually try to put up a fight for
Brienne here, or if he will let it go in his eagerness to get back to
Cersei. At this point I would say it could go either way. We shall see."

end quote.

You shall.
Andrew Mills
117. ajmills
As the first son, I expect Jaime was the spoiled brat (as much as any of them were "spoiled"). I reckon he had a "reality check" during his trip to King's Landing and did a lot of growing up.

I suspect he would not do the same thing to Bran as he is now, if he were in a similar predicament.

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