Mon
Dec 3 2012 12:00pm

Spoiler Thread for the Memories of Light, Week Two

Memories of Light on Tor.com

Welcome to the spoiler thread for the Memories of Light, the daily preview of the final volume of Robert Jordan’s epic Wheel of Time series, A Memory of Light. Some memories may shed new light on long-held theories and all are sure to have many different interpretations. Join the discussion of their meaning on the Memories of Light spoiler thread below!

Peruse more theories on the other spoiler threads for the Memories of Light.

403 comments
Heather Olver
1. Arila
"Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it."

Oh, I am so looking forward to more dreams! Looking forward and also dreading that we won't fully realize that they mean with only one volume to go.
Eric Dean
2. Aerich
Day 8:
Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it.
MartinCahn
3. MartinCahn
I'm in the middle of rereading the entire series right now (literally -- A Crown of Swords) and am having trouble recalling what this "frozen pillar of glass ... column of light" could possibly be referring to.

The only thing I can think of is a "True Source" that comes from the Creator and not the Dark One...? Ah, well... we shall see come Jan. 8, eh? :-D
M G
4. nalattam
Interesting that the glass pillar is also "frozen".
Jessica McAlister
5. dellyphio
My thought on this is that maybe it's a reference to a standstill between the Light siders and Dark siders. Or maybe the Light siders are trapped/surrounded by the Dark siders.
Ken England Jr
6. Vambram
This frozen pillar of glass almost sounds like it could be those pillars ter'angreals in Rhuidean.
MartinCahn
7. t ball
@6 - that's an interesting thought, but Egwene has seen the Rhuidean pillars and would recognize them.
lake sidey
8. lakesidey
OK this could be anything....so let me try to guess....the column could be the one power which is shortly going to be inaccessible for mumble jumble handwaving end of age reasons.

So to seal up (or kill) the DO, Rand also has to seal up the one power (maybe using something on the lines of the technique he used in the cleansing, when he forced saidar through saidin pipes...maybe he could seal the TP (which is after all the essence of the DO (too many acronyms in this sentence (and parentheses too))) by enclosing it in OP)...

....and so the OP is now "look but don't touch" for channelers. A lovely, frozen, river which you can't swim in. Remember saidar wielders view it as a river, so the word frozen would be apt here in Egwene's thoughts...

Cue : Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when we come to...our age, where the only channeling available is TV.

OK that line of thought started well, but ended up as a big ball of....wibbly wobbly....timey wimey....stuff.

~lakesidey
Damon Garner
9. IrishOmalley
@8 - That sounds good Lakesidy. I don't like it, but it makes sense. I don't like the idea of magic being gone from Randland. :( ...

Maybe Rand frozen in carbonite / glass? ;p
MartinCahn
10. ohforgettaboutit
@8 It could make sense lakesidey, that could be why Avi's children are "odd", because they can still channel???
MartinCahn
11. SPQR78
I hate the idea of the OP not continuing after the LB, and from Aviendha's visions of the future, it doesn't look very likely- i.e. her children always touching the OP.
As to today's 'memory' I really have no idea what it means....
MartinCahn
12. sk2
perhaps a previously unknown terangeal that literally looks like a pool of the OP?

that egwene is unable to interpret it should hint at something but i don't know what...
MartinCahn
13. SPQR78
@10 The reason there is something odd about her children is that they are always touching the OP.
herid fan
14. heridfan
@lakesidey #8 Interesting idea. However, we know that the OP will be present post the LB. Min had a viewing of a woman in Bandar Eban learning to channel and becoming an Aes Sedai. This can only happen after the LB. But something could happen to the OP temporarily before the LB is over. It's been mentioned that saidar is faling, the wards are not holding etc. Might explain why Ituralde would need to travel via the Ways in memory #7. Could also explain why Rand would need a Well like a substitute Eye of the World.
Cameorn Souri
15. csouri34
"Frozen pillar of glass" - "column of light"

Could the "column of light" be a reference to not Rand, but more importantly the Dragon Reborn (DR).

The "frozen pillar of glass" would signify that the eternal battle of the DR vs the DO is now frozen since Rand trapped or destroyed the DO for good at the end of AMoL.

This would reveal that the DR cannot be reborn again in the next age because his "column of light" or his 'next life' is now frozen as the wheel only weaves him out due to the imbalance of the DO on the world.

Being that AMoL is the last book I would assume that the DO is either gone/trapped/destroyed and thus the DR would be frozen in The Wheel of Time...

I didn't mean to end it that way but it turned out pretty nice :-)
Craig Jarvis
16. hawkido
The school in Cairhien developes Shaved Ice and calls it frozen glass... Egwene tries some and Gawyn gets an ice cream headache.
Charles Hopkins
17. charlesghopkins
Maybe she is just looking at the Axle that the Wheel of Time is connected to?
MartinCahn
18. Garrek42
My thought was who is watching Egwene, and Why?

It could be someone else dreaming about her, or even a a foretelling, but it should be fun to find out.
Michelle Bilokrely
19. GardenGnome
So they defeat the Dark One with IceCream and Brain Freeze. -_- This theory needs more Bela. And maybe Narg.
MartinCahn
20. Valav
Garek42. You just blew my mind. I didn't stop to think this wasn't egwene's pov. Brilliant. It could very well be the rhuhiden pillars still.
MartinCahn
21. iSpradlin
I wonder if this has something to do with plugging the bore? We've seen how a deeamspike in TaR affects the world, what if this works on similar principles to repair the pattern and the DO's prison?
Eric Hughes
22. CireNaes
I'm going for the simplistic interpretation of an already known (to the reader, Rand, and Nyneave) factor: the Lite-Brite in Rand's brain effectively creating a static state wherein Rand can have a degree of separation from the damage he has done to himself through the taint/True Power utilization with the speculative addition that apply's that degree of separation to his inherited memories thereby increasing Rand's mental stability.

So there's the Dark Friend's inability to tolerate Rand's gaze, which is exacerbated when Rand channels for some odd reason (averting one's eyes versus gouging them out with a quill or tossing yourself out of a tower window). They use descriptors like cursed Light etc...and we suspect (via Nyneave's delving) that this Lite-Brite keeps Rand's brain from devolving due to the taint. Put it together and a frozen glass pillar that looks like a column of light fits the bill for me.

Who knows? Regardless, I think the dream applies to Rand.
Michelle Bilokrely
23. GardenGnome
@21 No, they have to fix the bore, not plug it.
Andrew Lovsness
24. drewlovs
6.cyberengland
The description is VERY close to the descriptions given to the "glass" pillars in Rhuidean, as described when Avi visited. Read that passage again in ToM, starting in Chapter 48. Most likely its a coincidence, but with a WoT book, I am always suspicious of coincidences.
Michelle Bilokrely
25. GardenGnome
The pillar are described as glass; in another they are described as icicles. But never as frozen water and glass at the same time. Is frozen glass frosted glass? Or is it brittle glass? Or does it mean that the glass was in motion, so it is frozen in time?
Walter Jones
26. wjones42
Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it.
At first I though she was seeing the pillars at Rhuidean. Now, I'm not so sure. If it were the glass pillars at Rhuidean, there'd be more then one. Personally, I have to agree with Eggs, I can't interpret it either. Won't stop me from trying though :)
Maybe that's how the pillars manifest in TAR? In TOM, it's said they are intelligent and possibly alive. Maybe. Again who knows.
Don Barkauskas
27. bad_platypus
Valav @20: Barring an authorial error, it has to be Egwene's POV. No one else could know that she couldn't interpret it.

ohforgettaboutit @10: Other people are still channeling when the children are; the difference is that the children are constantly holding the Power. A lot of (most?) people think that's what Min was referring to, although I think it's something different. Look at the re-read where we discussed the "Wayforward" chapters if you're curious for my theory.
Cameorn Souri
28. csouri34
How do you know its not someone else speaking when it says "She could not interpret it."
MartinCahn
29. BWicks
@28 Simple: no quotes.
Tabitha Lavis
30. HarleyPixie
If the person whose point of view we're reading is a female, it could possibly be someone other than Egwene... but I don't think it is.
Deborah Kay-Morgan
31. moondivatx
If it's another persons POV..from her dream..how to they know she could not interpret it? This sounds like the dialogue from her dream about the WT being attached and she would be offered help from a woman wearing a sword. She didn't speak so there are no quotation marks. It's her POV.
Stanley Myrick
32. Segin
Say my name is Susan and I am female. I am Susan either watching Egwene's dream while she walks around or having my own dream about Egwene walking around.

"Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her (Egwene's or Susan's) dream. It almost
looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She (Susan) could not interpret
it."

She would be the proper way to write this. It couldn't be "I" could not interpret it. That would be like I was talking to you directly.

So it could be from another point of view. However, I think it would be hard for someone to spy on Egwene without her knowledge. So either 1) Egwene is letting her spy on purpose 2) Its Susan's dream not Egwene's or 3) (most likely) its from Egwene's pov
MartinCahn
33. TheEndAlready
Egwene is the Amyrlin. Striding can be a metaphor for "staying vigilant." The "Light" is the Power or the Creator. Frozen say's its not meant to move or change overtime.

I know everyone says the DO's prison must be remade and not "patched." This is the DO's new prison. Its not as perfect as the one before the Age of Legends because its tangible, hence there are more Ages to come. But it is a strong prison which the DO cannot reach out of. It is made from a frozen stream of Power. The Amyrilin's (and perhaps all Aes Sedai's) new task will be to guard this prison inside and outside of the Dream.
T C
34. Freelancer
The Wayback/Wayforward ter'angreal in Rhuidean is ALWAYS referred to as a forest of glass columns. Not pillars, not spires. And this from more than just Rand's POV. Also, why just one, if it refers to that ter'angreal? Finally, Egwene was in Rhuidean after the dome was destroyed, she saw those columns and presumably learned that it was where the Wise Ones and clan chiefs learned their history, so in this dream she would reference that knowledge. This is either a symbolic representation of a condition or event, or a previously unknown object.


wjones42 @26

The glass columns are never identified as intelligent. Aviendha does indeed get a feeling from them as though they were alive, just before she was hit with the first of the forward-looking visions. But once done, she felt nothing from them at all, they were completely inert.


TheEndAlready @33

Humanity cannot "remake" the prison entire. It is the Bore, the breach into the prison, caused by Mierin and Beidomon and imperfectly sealed by Lews Therin's Companions during their Strike, which must be torn apart and resealed properly.
herid fan
35. heridfan
@Freelancer #34 I agree with your point that Egwene has seen the Rhuidean columns and should have thought of them if the pillar in her dream was similar but your linguistic point is wrong. What you say is true for the RJ authored books but in ToM the glass columns in Rhuidean are referred to as pillars multiple times (about 15 times by my count).
MartinCahn
36. kkirzinger
CireNaes @ 22 What are you talking about a Lite Brite in his brain? I must have missed something because I am so lost with that one.
T C
37. Freelancer
Well, that's what I get for doing research away from the books, and depending on Ideal Seek.(I don't have eBooks of WoT) There are no references to pillars of any kind later than Winter's Heart Prologue according to that site, but it would seem that they still haven't included all of Towers of Midnight.

And yet, effectively moot, since the object under discussion from Egwene's dream is something entirely different.


kkirzinger @36

cirEnaeS is speaking of the covering of Light which is blocking the taint madness on Rand's brain, as delved by Nynaeve in ToM, ch15.
Eric Hughes
38. CireNaes
@Free re kkirzinger

Beat me to it. And you're messing with the proper reversed order of things, which shall remain nameless.
MartinCahn
39. iSpradlin
Just to clarify re: GardenGnome @23.

I was using the phrase "plugging the bore" very loosely in @21. My main point was to suggest that the existence of dreamspikes offers a precedent for objects existing in TaR that exert surprising power on the functioning of Randland. That said, while a particular kind of patch on the bore didn't work didn't work for LTT, perhaps a plug in the right place (TaR & Pit of Doom or some combo thereof) and of the right combination of True Source, TaR-stuff, and light (frozen or otherwise) could grow into the rest of the pattern and restore the prison.

Alternatively, since a patch didn't work last time, maybe tightening up the weave of the pattern like darning a sock would. Maybe Egg has found a pattern needle? Or maybe the DO is like sap trapped inside the branches of the pattern and Rand just needs to grow a new layer over the section that was broken open. And this is a frozen container of miracle grow.

Point is: Neither of us knows how they're going to do what they have to do and all the words or phrases we use (whether my "plugging the bore " or your "fix the bore") are all saying mostly the same thing.
MartinCahn
40. gammabase
This might be a stretch, but could Min have a viewing of Egwene where she knows Egwene is in TAR? Then it would be Min who could not interpret her viewing, not Egwene who couldn't interpret the column.
MartinCahn
41. gammabase
Sorry, not in TAR. Just in a dream.
Alice Arneson
42. Wetlandernw
Count me with those who think trying to force this into the POV of "someone watching Egwene" is bogus. It fits too well with how her own Dreaming has always worked; she sees and (when able) examines things, and notes whether or not she is able to interpret it immediately.

As for what the frozen pillar of glass/column of light might be... I haven't yet seen a theory that sounds very good, but I don't have any of my own either. It will just take more context, I think. And there's always the (high) probability that we won't know until it's fulfilled, or at least within a page or so of that point.
MartinCahn
43. Ok Awesome!
Balefire?
MartinCahn
44. ghotam
If Egwene thinks the glass pillar looks like a column of light, isn't that an interpretation in itself?

Anyway, could this be a dream vision of the prophetic text:

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

It's glass appearance may be the Dream's abstract depiction of Callandor and/or with light emanating from it. Of course, we don't know if she's striding around in total darkness for this to fit.
lake sidey
45. lakesidey
As for it being someone else's viewpoint, I doubt it. It is too much in character with Egwene to consider whether or not she can interpret a dream.

About the description of the thing....so normal glass is clear (transparent); possibly "frozen" glass may be her way of saying it looks like ice i.e. translucent while at the same time having the consistency of glass rather than ice (smooth and dry and not particularly cold to the touch). Chances are plastic and perspex are a little out of Eggy's eggsperience...though not out of character for the AOL - remember the white sphere (the Sharom?) mentioned breaking apart when Mierin tapped into the DO's prison originally?

As for "the power cannot be sealed up because then Avi's vision would be untrue"....whoa folks, you don't want her vision to come true do you? :) It could very well be that when she tells the Dragon of the possible consequences of the "peace of the Dragon", he might choose to go about things differently, resulting in a very different future - maybe even one where there is no OP.

As for Min's vision, she sees the flame of Tar Valon next to the woman - and assumes from there that she would be trained at the WT. Seems a reasonable assumption, but may only mean she has the potential. Min is hardly an expert on channeling! I admit she's probably right though - she has this insufferable habit of never being wrong.

~lakesidey
herid fan
48. heridfan
@lakesidey #45 Min doesn't assume, she says she knows. When Min knows she knows, she never represents assumptions about her viewings as definite interpretations. This has been explained often enough.
That woman there—the one sulking in the shadows—she will be trained by the White Tower and become Aes Sedai. I can see the Flame of Tar Valon beside her, and I know what it means.
Beside which expressing a channeling potential only by a Flame of Tar Valon would be a very bad metaphor.
Sanderson confirmed that there will be OP past the LB in inerviews too.
MartinCahn
49. Tenesmus
The more I read the exact quote, the more I think it sounds like Leilwin Shipless having a dream where she is watching Egwene walking around the column. The column represents Egwene herself, a massive force of Light. It represents the power she can bring to bear.
herid fan
50. heridfan
For some reason a comment I've been trying to post is not showing up. Is this because of a link in it? Yep, posted immediately without the link.
Why allow links in formatting but not allow them to actually be posted, Tor?
I apologize in advance if this will result in multiple posts but here it is again.

@lakesidey #45 Min doesn't assume, she says she knows. When Min knows she knows, she never represents assumptions about her viewings as definite interpretations. This has been mentioned often enough.
That woman there—the one sulking in the shadows—she will be trained by the White Tower and become Aes Sedai. I can see the Flame of Tar Valon beside her, and I know what it means.
--ToM, ch 25
Beside which expressing a channeling potential only by a Flame of Tar Valon would be a very bad metaphor.

Sanderson confirmed that there will be OP after the LB too.
Aldoth
The question that I have for you is, now that you know the ending of Wheel of Time, after the final book has been released will it be a world that you could set a game in? Or will it be like Tolkien where after the end of Lord of the Rings the world is pretty much over? I ask because it looks to be a great place to set an RPG and I want to know if I should be looking to a time before The Eye of the World or if I should run a new age?
Brandon Sanderson
I'm going to stick pretty close to things Mr. Jordan has said or implied regarding this. Things he has said have implied strongly that it is not going to be like Tolkien; though the Wheel will eventually turn to a point where the One Power is forgotten and the land becomes like our world, that is NOT the Fourth Age. I think it would still be a fantastic place to set an RPG game.
herid fan
51. heridfan
memory #9
The letter was written in Mat's hand. And, Elayne noticed with
amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better
in this one than the one he'd sent her weeks ago.
Unless the letter is a fake nothing very interesting in this one.
MartinCahn
52. rhandric
Day 9:
The letter was written in Mat's hand. And, Elayne noticed with amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better in this one than the one he'd sent her weeks ago.

Not sure what Mat's new letter will be about, though since we've seen a chapter about him going to Ebou Dar, it may be related to his trip.
Matthew Smith
53. Blocksmith1
heridfan @51

I agree there does not appear to be much info, but what we can infer is that not much time (I would guess "weeks ago" means at least 3...else she would have likely said "over a month ago") has passed since his trip rescue Moiraine. I believe the last letter was sent a bit before his trip to Finnland. I wonder if he communicates saving Moiraine (and other information) in a letter to Elayne...I don't buy this, but possible.
Keith Buttram
54. Wookster125
I just wonder why his handwriting and spelling have improved. . .

The letter in Towers of Midnight was one of the few things that pulled me out of the story.
lake sidey
55. lakesidey
I think that last letter was deliberately mis-spelled to make it annoying - and thus to make it stand out - since his earlier (presumably more polite and boring) letters had gone unanswered (Elayne hadn't seen them, but he didn't know that!). And at that it did get the desired result....

~lakesidey
Tricia Irish
56. Tektonica
Today's quote:

The letter was written in Mat's hand. And, Elayne noticed with amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better in this one than the one he'd sent her weeks ago.

Why is Mat writing to Elayne? Where would Elayne be at this point, that Mat would have to write to her. Cairhein? Camelyn is a mess. Is Mat in Camelyn and Elayne in Cairhein? At least she's showing some amusement about something, even it it's only Mat's handwriting and spelling!
MartinCahn
57. Tenesmus
Mat didn't write it this time. Probabaly his eye hurt and he just said to Thom, "Write Elayne a bloody letter!!"
MartinCahn
58. rhandric
@57
Except it was in Mat's hand, just neater and properly spelled.
lake sidey
59. lakesidey
Come to think of it, I'm not sure if it is contradictory - "in Mat's hand" and "the handwriting was much neater" seem to conflict....might it have been better to say "bore Mat's seal" instead? because the only example of Mat's hand she has seen recently was the one with the cacographic handwriting!

~lakesidey
MartinCahn
60. decgem
A single 'hand' can be recognized as the same in both messy and neater script. Maybe this is meant to convey that when Mat gets annoyed, he writes hastily and his handwriting and spelling suffer, as in the last letters, but in this one, he had the time and patience to write it properly. Could also be a little indication of Mat's growing maturity. :-)
Peter Reen
62. pnr060
If I had to guess, I'd say this is a sop to people who resented Sanderson using the previous letter to make Mat look like a buffoon to add some "humor" to the story.
Alex Fuller
63. AKFuller
I think we've seen Thom forge letters before...
MartinCahn
64. Nedo
Possibly post LB and Mat is with Tuon which means he is having to become more eloquent in his writing.
T C
65. Freelancer
Looking at #8 again:
"Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it."
Fact: She is dreaming.
Fact: She doesn't know what the dream means.
Fact: Within the dream, the pillar is frozen.
Fact: Within the dream, there is one pillar.
Fact: Within the dream, the pillar almost looked like a column of light.

Too much bending, twisting, and revising of what's really there in the text leads to theories from out beyond Waveland Avenue. The text doesn't say that the pillar seems frozen, or appears frozen, it says frozen pillar. I don't know what that means any more than the next reader, but when you revise what is said or thought before jumping off to an idea, the jumping off point is already skewed. Next, the text does not say that it is a column of light, but that it almost looked like one. That 'almost' is significant. It diminishes the similarity or approximation of this object to an actual column of light.

I still don't know what it is without more information, but many of the ideas being bandied the last few days are inventing information which is not there. That really never gets you closer to the truth. Remember that she is dreaming, and that this object may not be represented in reality, may be completely symbolic, and a symbol which cannot be understood until something else happens.

All that said, I know that unconstrained brainstorming has value, just don't lose sight of the truth of what the ideas are founded upon.
Taryn Barker
66. Taryntula
The question isn't IF Mat wrote a letter, but WHY. Could he be acting as a middle man between the Seanchan and the Field of Merrilor peeps?
T C
67. Freelancer
I'd say that #9 either represents the outflow of a major turning point in Mat's maturity, that he is finally fully accepting of his place on Team Light (and other previews we've been given strongly support this), or Thom has forged a letter to Elayne. We haven't seen him do so since Tear where the specific writer's hand mattered, but it is among his many skills. In the first case, perhaps Mat is consciously drawing on the education and abilities of those whose memories he has gained, permitting him to be a more eloquent and capable writer.
Alice Arneson
68. Wetlandernw
#9 - There's nothing to indicate that the letter was written to Elayne herself; just that she's seeing a letter that was written by Mat at some time. She recognizes his handwriting, and that he wrote neatly and spelled correctly in this one vs. the one he wrote "so she would know" it was Mat. This letter could have been written before he left for the ToG, or after he returned. He could have written a letter and sent it to the Field of Merrilor with Thom & Moiraine, while he went to Ebou Dar. There are hundreds of possibilites - including the possibility that Thom forged it, I suppose - without any need to insist that it's a retcon.
Taryn Barker
69. Taryntula
PS...I think people are going way off the deep end on the Egwene POV quote. It's definitely Eggs POV, otherwise how would an outsider know she couldn't interpret her dream? She wards her dreams, so no one can peek in anyway. Also, frozen doesn't mean ICE or COLD, it could also mean STILL or UNMOVING...it could just be an unmoving column of light, like a picture of something, or time stopping. This one truly is a mystery though as far as what it means.
Damon Garner
70. IrishOmalley
#9 - I like the idea of Matt writing as an ambassador / go between for the seanchan and the good guys.
MartinCahn
71. Tenesmus
@69 I don't think so. It could easily come from an Egeanin POV chapter, especially since we have already had an Egeanin POV and there will be some type of Egeanin and Egwene interaction before the end of AMOL. It could also be from an Elayne POV. The "her" and "She" do not need to reference Egwene by the laws of grammar. Read it again... "Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it." It might be Egwene, but it is far from a "fact' that it has to be an Egwene POV, it could be Egeanin, Elayne, Moiraine, Nynaeave, etc.
MartinCahn
72. TheEndAlready
If its a frozen form of the Power (Saidar to make it significant to Egwene) then it could be a representation of a massive Well that she gets access to.

What we know is from RJ/BS that if the female channlers helped seal the Bore then there would have been a backlash against Saidar as well as Saidin. We also know that "something much touch the DO" and therefore become corrupted in the sealing of the Bore. If Rand and Egwene have access to massive Wells then the Power from the two Wells can be used to seal the Bore and become corrupted without effecting the Source. This leaves a neat tie to LTT's original plan and how it was a good one. Just flawed in an unexpected way.

It, also, ties well to the Eye of the World. But no character has ever even hinted at the need for a female Well such as the Eye (IIRC). I wonder why that is. Unless this theory goes into the Loony Bin.
Stefan Mitev
73. Bergmaniac
Most likely the handwriting of the new letter is better simply because Mat is not in a hurry, and isn't intentionally trying hard to look like a poorly educated guy from the back end of nowhere, unlike with the Tom letter.
MartinCahn
74. NaejPink De'ja vu
Hmmm. Me thinks that letter was forged and that Elaine SHOULD be smart enough to know it. Even with his memories, Matt's writing skills have never shown improvement.

Wow. Just sitting here reading everyone's input. Are you all (still!) as amazed as I am at the wonderful complexities of our characters and their plot lines? Jordan has set a pretty high bar for every book I will EVER read hereafter. I am so looking forward to bringing this epic to close but, also, dreading that every book I read in the future will fall short by comparison. Sitting here now wondering what the heck we're gonna do, you guys. We have been spoiled! Let's start sending out tips for good series to move to once our Wheel of Time stops turning. Will post one for us later.
MartinCahn
75. Garrek42
First, a question: Why are the Seanchan the bad guys? They are a very different society then I would choose to live in and then the other nations choose, but that does not make them evil.

Next, Prince of the Ravens, being Mat's proper title or rather one of them, wopuld acctually make it hard for those who don't know him to accept him as an intermediary between the two factions of the light.

Thirdly, since I seems to have started an arguement about the POV of the Ewgene clip, I was just offering a possibility. But, some of the Chosen would have a chance to observe her in TOR without her noticing them, just as Birgitte took either Elayne or Nyneve to observe the chosen in a meeting there before she was ripped out of the World of Dreams.

Either way, I can hardly wait to have the whole text in my hands...
MartinCahn
76. ageless
I just finished rereading eye of the world. There was a crystal column in the center of the eye.
"Lan took them into the cavern," nynaeve said. "The Eye is gone, but there's something in the middle of the pool, a crystal column, and steps to reach it. Maybe this is the pillar of glass Egwene sees. It does not say she saw it while they were at the eye and maybe that was something else placed there for mankinds greatest need.
Martyna Berek
77. missbee
#8
The one possibility for for this being from another PoV I could go with is an Aiel Dreamer, dreaming about Egwene.
Either that or it is Egwene herself.
I have no ideas on what the pillar may be. But the fact that it is 'frozen' makes me think it can not be one of those in Rhuidean.

#9
As Wetlander already said there are a hundred possibilities.
But this may be an indication that Mat did not see Elayne at FoM.
She does have the dragons and the Band the last time we see her, so the letter could be about those.
Niraj Merchant
78. NirajMerchant
@75 I think that the issue with the seanchen is that they practice institutionalized slavery, which is something that none of us can advocate. In addition, most of our main characters can channel and hence would be leashed under seanchen rule. On the other hand, they seem to have a stable government under which the common people to exceedingly well, so not sure that they can be classified as 'evil'. However their propensity to conquer, as well as their willful ignorance of the fact that channeling is not an intrinsically bad thing makes them extremely hard to root for.

@75 That sounds really interesting, however I was under the impression that the blight had encroached upon the eye after the death of the green man. this could still mean that crystal pillar is important
Heather Olver
79. Arila
@75:Regarding possible observers - does Egwene have "interpretive dreams" in TAR? I know Perrin sees the windows there, but I thought most of her Dreams with a capital D happened while she was asleep in her own body behind her dream wards.

@76: Very interesting about the column left behind in the eye. I'm going to go re-read that part tonight. very cool! :)
Daniel Sahlman
80. Lazlo
Egwene's prophetic dreams aren't happening in Tele'aran'rhiod, but in her warded dreams, so no one could be watching her if they are in fact Dreams (with the capital D). So either the quote is a Dream, or it isn't Egwene's POV (something I doubt), it can't be both.

Anyway, I jsut stmbled across this in the 3rd chapter of TOM and so I share:

"The vision changed. She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes. There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodsman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a rime, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head. Egwene gasped, came awake, and sat upright."

Perhaps they are related, perhaps not. Either way, both clues to the coming battle.
Sean Dowell
81. qbe_64
Day 9:
I guess the eye he lost was his holding back his grammar and spelling development. Looks like the *finns gave him one last gift, the greatest gift of all...literacy.
MartinCahn
82. SPQR78
lol @81.

@ 76 Completely forgot about that part at the end of EOTW. Seemed like a throw away line. Perhaps that is the column Egwene is dreaming about....hmm, interesting.
Lindsay Fischer
84. linzaroon
Other people have made the same point, but having gone to the effort of writing it down......It can very easily be a point of view other than Egwene's. For example, imagine that the context is: Aviendha awoke, remembering. "Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it."

Looked at this way, Aviendha, or which ever female character one chooses to be the dreamer, can't figure out what Egewene is doing in her dream, striding around a glass pillar. It doesn't have to mean that Egwene is confused. Egwene could in fact be in the middle of some important process with a terangreal, but one which is opaque to the person seeing the process in her dreams.
MartinCahn
85. Ftup8
Day 9: The letter was written in Mat's hand. And, Elayne noticed with amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better in this one than the one he'd sent her weeks ago.

Its Matt's letter. The last one he sent her was a draft he couldn't be bothered rewriting (he even says this to Elayne in their meeting). He's probably written this one when he's had more time and had Thom edit his spelling.
Either that or its an offical letter from the Seanchan that Tuon has made him write out neatly. Half the reasons she married him was because of how he would benefit the Seanchan and his connections with half the rulers of the world would come into that.
MartinCahn
86. SPQR78
@ 84 - It doesn't make sense that someone else would be dreaming. No one, other than Egwene, has showed any Dreaming abilities, so I think that this must be an Egwene POV. I can see where your coming from, given the grammar, but thinking logically with the background of the books, it wouldn't make sense to be anyone else but Egwene.
Sarah MacBeth
87. Aerie426
I really think everyone is over thinking this Egwene quote. There's no reason to assume it isn't her POV and why wouldn't it be?
With the Mat line, I think it is simply as it was already stated at the time. Mat can be quite the charmer when he wants to be. He wrote the last letter in the style she would definitely recognise as him from their time together. It was a deliberate attempt to shock to cut through all the diplomatic rubbish that comes with being queen. He would also know that Birgitte would be likely to see the letter and as they developed quite a bond he would be sure she would intercede on his behalf.
The reason Elayne finds it so amusing is for much the same reason as she likes to experiment with cursing - she likes to play with the harsher side of life that she has always been sheltered from. I remember she found Mat to be particularly inspirational in that area.
MartinCahn
88. Garrek42
@86 The Chosen/Forsaken may have a dreamer among them, this having never been denied, as mostly they are mysteries wrapped in enigmas (No Vests though) . Also the Aiel have dreamers, and any of them could turn out to be darkfriends.

@78 - Slavery is an awful institution, but it has been a normal part of the human condition since time out of memory. It's more suprising to me that more of the nations do not practice it, just the Seanchan and Shara(kinda implied).
As for conquering other lands all of our nations have done it. Europe used to do it every spring, and in North America, well ask an Aboriginal Person about conquest.
The last 50 years have been very unusual, and even to this day we have slavery, it may be outlawed, but it's still happening.


As to the Letter in day 9, I can't wait to see the contents... I am currently reading The Shadow Rising and just went by the first visit to the Aelfinn. "give up half the light of the world to save the world." seems to fit. Maybe.
MAtthew Thom
89. zas452
In regards to Egwene's Pillar of Light, could it be a 'barrier' of sorts around SG, as Rand goes to face DO.
IN the AoL, the Choedan Kal were originally planned to set up a barrier around SG until a more permanent solution could be discovered. LTT was against this idea, as proposed by LPD, and went along with the Seals etc etc - split of male and female AS, Breaking of the World insues.

Could Rand be possibly be considering a second line of defense against DO if he fails at SG?
Terry McNamee
90. macster
The minute I saw today's quote I knew there was going to be bitching about Mat's ToM letter. I was not disappointed (though in another sense, I was). All I can say is, it seems very clear to me that this is more evidence that letter was deliberately badly written, both to get Elayne's attention and because he was angry at being seemingly ignored. Outside that situation (and when he isn't in a hurry), he's able to produce a regular, well-written letter just fine, the same as he did in ACoS. Everyone who thinks this is not consistent with Mat's character (and ignores the very clear explanation from Mat that he was trying to get her attention) is simply indulging in their own interpretation, probably because they cannot stand Sanderson's version and refuse to accept it as valid. Which is fine, everyone has their own interpretation, and outside ones which obviously are not supported by the text, they're all equally valid. But that doesn't mean it's fine to dismiss the consistent in-story explanation given for why that letter was different. You may think Mat isn't the kind of guy to write such a thing, but you can't deny he said himself why he did it (specifically to get her attention, not because he's generally a bad writer).

That said, all that's left unexplained is whether Mat's well-written letters are due to his own education or his memories--and what the reason for this letter is. It seems odd Elayne would be reading a letter from him that wasn't meant for her (unless it was to Egwene), but either way I think one thing is clear: there can't be any bad news in it. Because if there were, I don't think even the lack of the bad grammar and spelling (thus reminding her of it and why he did it) would be enough to make her amused. Whether he's writing about Moiraine, something related to leading the Light's forces, or an alliance between Randland and the Seanchan, who knows. Though for the latter to be true it would have to be after the damane were released and the second Tower attack either stopped or called off.

As for Egwene's dream...it is silly to quibble over the meaning of the language, especially when we have plenty of examples of how her interpretive Dreams work--both the dream with the crystal sphere and the ones of the Seanchan swordswoman and the Seanchan attacking the Tower involved Egwene looking at something else and trying to interpret it after the fact, with one of them having Egwene herself in the dream. She has in fact seen herself in her Dreams almost from the start (recall the one from TDR of "Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan", the one of Rand building a wall with them on the other side, not to mention all the Gawyn dreams and the one of her on a headsman's block). Being the Dreamer doesn't preclude her from seeing herself in the dreams and then having to interpret the meaning afterward.

As to what it means...absolutely no idea, other than it can't be the columns. Although the ideas of it being some sort of One Power barrier, the light in Rand's mind, or the column from the Eye are all very intriguing... @89 is also a rather brilliant idea.
MartinCahn
91. Nedo
@83
That was half the light of the world, not the Eye of the World from the first book.
MartinCahn
92. Skyfoo
#8. The similarity to the columns in Rhuidean seems intentional. Avi said she felt like the columns were alive (ToM). What if this is one of the collective collumns taken out or independent of the others. We don't know how they work or what level of consciousness or other worldly access they have. It may be some kind of sentient Ter'angreal.............well, why not?!
MartinCahn
93. Skyfoo
#9. A lot of people are speculating that Matt will be the supreme general of the light-side. I don't know....I'll believe it when I read it. The thing about Matt is his maturity comes in fits and starts. He's sort of forced to mature after having to go through incredible situations.

I mean, can you guys really imagine the scene of Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere, and Rhuarc acknowledging Matt's command? As I said, I want it to happen, but we'll see.........

On the letter, it may be that it is the recognition of his maturity. Having grown wiser after defeating the Finns. Also, Elayne only says the letter has less errors, not that it's perfect.

And the gambler becomes the center of all!!
Birgit
94. birgit
The pillar of Light could be a reinvention of the AoL standing flows.
MAtthew Thom
95. zas452
@93: Mat is the only one who makes sense to be the Supreme General for the Light. With his battle tactics from his myriad of memories, alongside his own experiences with Shen al Calhar, he is the perfect choice. Add that to the fact that he will lead the Seanchan against the Shadow as well, and he will pretty much kick Demandred's ass. Demmy of course will be the Shadow's General for TG, as he wants to destroy Rand utterly. Gambler to Gambler, General to General, it is going to be a battle of epic proportions.

There is also the fact that Ituralde is going to be heading up the Borderland defense, Bryne will be leading the Tower guards, Bashere will be leading the Legion of the Dragon, unless he dies, which seems probable given Min's viewings of Faile and the Broken Crown (remember she only sees what will happen in the future.) Meaning she and Perrin will become rulers of Saldaea, and with Perrin as Lord of the Two Rivers, they will control a massive swathe of land between them.

Mat is the obvious choice.

@94 - excellent idea with the Standing Flows :)
MartinCahn
96. Morrison
#9: It's probably nothing, but in ToM, someone asks if Mat's going to curse to Elayne in his letter, and he says something along the lines of "Of course, how else will she know it's me?" This could foreshadow a later forged letter that does not include the "roughness" of Mat's previous letter.
MartinCahn
97. SPQR78
@96- Yes, that's very true. He purposely cursed in the letter, but I think he only did that to get her attention since she had been, as he thought, ignoring requests for meetings. I just don't see the purpose in forging a letter from Mat to Elayne.
And he's totally going to be the overall commander of the armies. His skill is unquestioned, even if his youth is, and his ties to both Rand and the Seanchan make him the perfect candidate. The other Great Captains, as zas452 said, will be in command of their armies, taking orders from Mat. The build up to his taking command is fairly obvious, I think. Tuon will accept his command of her armies, and Rand will of course trust him as well. Bashere believes in him as well, so the other Great Captains will trust in Bashere's opinion.
Sean Dowell
98. qbe_64
Someone will have to help me with the exact dates, but there was a chapter that gave the range of his memories. Running from between the trolloc wars and the 100 years war, which I believe would have all occurred during the old tongue. I don't know if the old tongue and the new tongue actually share the same alphabet, but any writing ability gained from his memories I don't think would help him write letters in the current language. In fact, based on the cadence and sentence structure of the Old Tongue, it would more likely make it even more difficult to write in the new tongue.
Benjamin Coole
99. BCP316
"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."
Egwene to dream-Bela?
Damon Garner
100. IrishOmalley
"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."

Aiel, but to who...


Beat me to it. BCP. Did get a consolation #100 though :p
MartinCahn
101. Kriti
"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."

Someone to Birgitte Silverbow?
Jeremy Goff
102. JeremyM
My first thought was that this was Elayne after the death of Brigitte. But now that I think on it that doesn't make much sense. It would make more sense for it to be Egwene, but I have no idea who she would referring to.
Evelynne Weakley
103. evelynne_r
"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."

Lanfear to Demandred
MAtthew Thom
104. zas452
Sorilea? She has gone to Rhuidean...seems possible it may kill her- news of her death maybe bought by Nakomi?
MartinCahn
105. Missavonne
I'm hoping it's Elayne to Birgitte; that Birgitte somehow makes it back to Tele'aran'rhiod!
MartinCahn
106. Mootman
Alright so let's think about it. She is saying 'Old Friend' so this probably has to be someone who has been around for awhile. Nothing against Egwene but she is in her twenties and most of these other Aes Sedai or Wise Ones have potentially been around for two hundred years. My guess is Amys to Sorilea
MartinCahn
107. jshamiran
Some one just died! I think it must be an Aiel since they are the ones that say life is a dream.
Jhon Mondarte
108. SpeedyProcrastinator
This could be a dying Aiel speaking. Remember, they see life as a dream (if I'm not mistaken). Whoever this one is, I have no clue whatsoever. I vote Amys. ;)
Brendon Kinney
109. schmendon
Elayne speaking of Birgitte would be awesome; I'd love to see her return to TAR! Doesn't exactly sound like Elayne to me though. My first thought was of a dying Aiel saying this line because the speaker seems to be about to "wake from the dream" in the Aiel sense.

Thinking along a different line, which characters are old friends? Moiraine and Siuan? I don't think Egwene has been friends with any of the Aiel Wise Ones long enough to speak in this way about any of them. Same goes for Sorilea and Cadusuane, although I like the idea of one of them speaking this about the other. Whoever the two speakers are I think they are equals in some way.
MAtthew Thom
110. zas452
And farewell to you, old friend
Sounds as if it is in response to someone saying farewell previously.
MartinCahn
111. JAmesONing
Egwene to Perrin? Or a wise one.
MartinCahn
112. butteredonions
No! not Bela! she's been a good horse! My first impression is this is Egwene talking.

First post, just had to comment on this one.
MartinCahn
113. cwissen
It seemed to me that this could be Perrin speaking of Elyas, meeting again in the wolf dream.
MartinCahn
114. krakatak
I forget...do we know that Gaidal Cain has been reborn? If not, it could be Birgitte speaking with Gaidal as he prepares to return to TAR (post Horn of Valere and TG). I'm also now questioning whether she would call him "friend"...doh, it was worth a shot.
MartinCahn
115. Puzzle23
#10: I think it is Birgitte to one of the Heroes of the Horn after the Last Battle when they depart back to Tel'aran'rhiod. She speaks to the air, in TGH the Heroes arrive and fight from the air.
MartinCahn
116. TopherBob
@104 - I believe it's Bair who went to Ruidian. And she's old enough to have "old friends." My vote is for her. Maybe Bair to Amys?
MartinCahn
117. caniguess
@114 gaidal cain is reborn according to a birgitte scene
MartinCahn
118. SPQR78
@104 - Bair went to Rhuidean, not Sorilea.

First thought was that Egwene was actually speaking to TAR itself, not to someone in particular- i.e. good bye til I come back to TAR. Not sure if that makes any logical sense. Just my immediate reaction.
MartinCahn
119. SPQR78
@117- yes, Gaidal has been reborn- and he's NOT Olver!! haha

I really think it's Egwene, just not sure to whom or what.
MAtthew Thom
120. zas452
@116 and @118: apologies. Am on a reread before AMoL comes out and I'm currently halfway through ACoS!
Charles Foster
121. FossMaNo1
Don't the Aiel call life a dream? This quote struck me a dying Aiel saying goodbye to some who had just walked away.
MartinCahn
122. Ghenjei
Birgitte seems the most-likely, but how about VERIN? I like how this ties into the Nakomi theories.
Matthew Smith
123. Blocksmith1
I can imagine many possible options, but to me, it appears that someone is saying this as they are dying and that the statement "Until I dream again." would relate to someone that either believed they would be reborn (able to dream again) or, as others have indicated it could be a reference to the Aiel waking from a dream.

Based on the reborn option, Birgitte seems the most likely option. If its the Aiel option, it could be any number of wise women, but most likely Sorilea.
MartinCahn
124. SPQR78
@ 123 & 115 Now that I think about all of the above, you're probably right given the Aiel fondness for calling life a dream. To me it's either Sorilea or Bair speaking to the other or Amys.

Nakomi- has this been confirmed that Nakomi = Verin??
Stephen Betley
125. tifosi
Likely an Aiel Wise One. My guess is Amys.

Probably after the forthcoming Trolloc vs Aiel carnage in northern Arad Doman... that's where Rhuarc & the rest seem to have gone.
Nadine L.
126. travyl
I agree it sounds like someone dying, but why is she speaking to the air? - has the one she talks to faded from TAR?
@113: Perrin to Elyas would fit well, except for the "she" who is speaking.
Stephen Betley
127. tifosi
Talking to the air... Sure Jordan has used that in earlier books when someone is dying on their own.
MartinCahn
129. Coulin
For whatever reason, I think it is Sulin.
MartinCahn
130. DragonRegent85
"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."
This is possibly Egwene talking to Rand at the end of the book. The cover for the last book shows a body on a pyre, meaning that Rand will die (really sad). Since Rand is ta'veren, he'll probably end up in Tel'aran'rhiod, which means Egwene could theoretically catch a glimpse of him there. How does that theory sound?
Katie Frey
131. TalithaSedai
I defininetly think it's Birgitte talking to one of the Heros of the Horn (but not Gaidal Cain) after the Last Battle, when they are fading away.
Brendon Kinney
132. schmendon
Have we been given any sense of how far forward the conclusion of AMoL continues various story lines? For instance perhaps this dialogue occurs in a somewhat distant future where it does make more sense for Egwene to be referring to Amys as an old friend. If that's the case it opens up many more possible speakers.
Benjamin Coole
133. BCP316
@TalithaSedia In that case, wouldn't it be "friends" instead of "friend"?
Katie Frey
134. TalithaSedai
@133, no I think she could be speaking to a specific Hero. I don't know which it could be, I admit. The sense of talking to the air... just makes me think of the Heroes vanishing after they were called in TGH. Though it's been a while since I last read that.. Anyways, this is my story and I'm sticking to it! =D
Craig Jarvis
135. hawkido
Gonna make you cry alittle on this one... after the horn is blown, and the battle is won and the Heroes are starting to fade away.. Birgette says this line to Gaidal as he vaporizes...
MartinCahn
136. LK
@78

Something must touch the DO. They tried saidin, it was tainted by the touch, now saidin is clean again. But Rand channels the TP now. The TP is already tainted by the saa, so if he uses that, we just might get back into a situation where the wheel can turn . . .
Craig Jarvis
137. hawkido
DOH... that's right Gaidal Cain has already be re-born...

Bair to Nakomi, that might fit... Also remember the Land lubber people on the sea folk Isles... they all suicided, says the dream is over. So it is not just the Aiel who overtly believe this...

Would be funny if the dark one asks Rand to choose between the Red Pill and the Blue one...
Lee VanDyke
138. Cloric
@130 Which country is the cover you're describing from? The US cover has Rand, Moiraine and Nynaeve at Shayol Ghul. Do you have a link to the image?
MartinCahn
139. TopherBob
@135 - Do you really think Birgitte would call Gaidal "old friend?" More likely she'd call him an ugly old goat or something. In fact, if Birgitte were dying her last line would probably be something like, "Oh Bloody Buttered Onions! I knew you were going to get me killed Elayne."
Katie Frey
140. TalithaSedai
@138 Cloric:

DragonRegent is reffering to the Darrell K Sweet "sketch" for the cover of book 14 that he was working on before he passed away. You should be able to find it in the AMOL section on this website.

Edit: here's the link
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/04/a-darrell-k-sweet-wheel-of-time-tribute-including-a-memory-of-light-sketch
MartinCahn
141. Corbett Yaeger
I would put my bet on one of the Aiel. They are always talking about how they are not afraid to wake from the dream that is life. I am guessing one of the wise one's talking to their husband as they die
Damon Garner
143. IrishOmalley
#10 - After thinking about it some more. This "sounds" like Amy's or another wise one. My bet would be Amy's speaking about Rhuarc passing....
MartinCahn
144. Wyshome
To me this last quote doesn't sound like it's being said by someone dying, but rather over someone that has just died. My first thought was one of the Aiel too... Probably a wise one. But Egwene to Bela? I like that one too!
MartinCahn
145. DrK
I'm with #130.

To me this has the ring of Perrin speaking to Elyas after his friend has died but is reborn as a wolf in the dream
Alan Courchene
146. Majicou
@143: Er, Amys is Rhuarc's wife. She doesn't call him "old friend." "Shade of my heart" is more her style.
MartinCahn
147. Somewheresouth
Moiraine has been known to call Lan "old friend". But she would be unlikely to add the last bit.
MartinCahn
148. Fledge
Like BCP316, I immediately thought of Egwene and Bela.
T C
149. Freelancer
NirajMerchant @78

The Green Man's place, where the Eye was, probably isn't directly subject to the Blight. The fact that it is mobile suggests a relationship to tel'aran'rhiod. I was going to say that Loial's treesinging protected the entire place, but I think that only the oak tree left behind as Someshta's grave is protected. "Treebrother will not fall to the Blight!" An act which even moved Lan.


#10

The Aiel say that death is "waking from the dream", so that would be backwards if the speaker is saying farewell to someone who has died/is dying. And the idea of one who is dying saying this is odd. So everyone believes in rebirth, but there's no telling where, or when, so there's really no likelihood of meeting someone again on the next go-round.

My first sensation upon reading it was Egwene speaking to tel'aran'rhiod itself, but while barely plausible, it doesn't fit anything which has happened to this point. The next best scenario which I can think fits the details is Birgitte dying in fighting prior to Mat blowing the Horn, and her re-appearing with the other Heroes. After the battle is over, she vanishes with the other Heroes, and Elayne utters this line. I still don't think this is it, since Elayne would be more likely to say "I'll visit you in the World of Dreams" than "until I dream again". That part definitely sounds more like Egwene. A Wise One dreamwalker wouldn't say "until I dream again", but "when next I walk the dream". Well, I just don't know.

Numerous comments suggest a person speaking to another who is dead or dying. But the "she said to the air" precludes that. The subject is someone who is not there, in spirit or in body.


SPQR78 @124

No. There's no valid evidence to support Nakomi = Verin. She has not been directly involved with anything about the Aiel other than Gaul, Bain and Chiad being in the Two Rivers at the same time as she and Alanna, during the Trolloc/Whitecloak invasions.
Lee VanDyke
150. Cloric
@140 & 142: Thanks for the link. I had totally forgotten about DKS' original sketch. While I do like the Whelan artwork we'll be seeing on the new book, I forgot how much I liked the simplicity of that drawing. And the obvious emotion.
MartinCahn
151. Early Today...
"One more thing, the marath'damane . . ." "I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said. She gawked at him as if he were insane.
MartinCahn
152. Wooster125
"One more thing, the marath'damane . . ."
"I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said.
She gawked at him as if he were insane.

My thought is Egeanin or maybe Tylee.
MartinCahn
153. Zagk
Day 11:

"One more thing, the marath'damane . . ."
"I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said.
She gawked at him as if he were insane.
MartinCahn
154. Ok Awesome!
Mat clearly has the bridging job with the Seanchan and Aes Sedai, as we knew he would
lake sidey
155. lakesidey
Has Christmas morning come early? Or is the new 'memory' just ahead of its time?

#11
"One more thing, the marath'damane . . ."
"I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said.
She gawked at him as if he were insane.

Tuon/Egeanin, I presume. Selucia for a long shot, since she anyway views Mat like he's insane.

Also about memory#10....long shot, but how about Egwene to Verin? As follows:

Mat blows horn. Heroes of horn appear. Lo, Verin is among them. Ensue tears of joy from Egwene and then this promise (since the heroes are extant in the world of dreams, now that she knows Verin is there she can find her at will....

~lakesidey
MartinCahn
156. Firemyst
10. Perrin dies but is in the wolf dream, like Hopper was. It's Egwene speaking to him right after she has awakened from TAR where she's seen/talked to him.

11. Matrim to Fortuona
Terry McNamee
157. macster
My first instinct for the "until I dream again" comment was Birgitte to Gaidal, but since he has been reborn already, the next most likely is Birgitte to another Hero. It could also be Elayne to Birgitte but I am not sure if she'd call her old friend...still, they are close, Elayne would know very well she could see Birgitte again in TAR once she entered it, and with all the danger Elayne keeps getting in I could see Birgitte dying to protect her. And...it could be Egwene to Perrin, I think she'd consider him an old friend by now and there's been enough foreshadowing Perrin might die...

The last quote could also possibly be Tuon, but the diction and overall reaction makes me think more of Egeanin and Tylee.
MartinCahn
158. MountainDancer
#11 is Matt talking to Tuon
Lee VanDyke
159. Cloric
I figured that it was Tuon, but thought it also *might* be Selucia. The gawking doesn't really seem Tuon's style.
MartinCahn
160. Ghotam
The 'dream again' quote sounded like Egwene speaking to a conjured "friend", like she previously did Bela on her journey to Salidar. Perrin wasn't so enthused with his recreation of Hopper. Certainly sounds like something 'she' can only meet in the dream and doesn't exist (anymore) in the real world.

As for Mat, his quote (to a Sul'dam, Tylee?) makes me think he's going up against Aes Sedai. I had a pet theory that he'd have to rescue Tuon after she gets captured and collared (binding the daughter of the nine moons to the dragon reborn). It should lead to an interesting encounter with Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne if he gets to reveal that he's married to her. In that event they're going to be stunned, shocked and not very approving. And he might later even find himself having to defend Tuon and prove she's not very different from the rest of them, with a scowling, "That's what Tuon said".
Martyna Berek
161. missbee
@ 145. DrK
Perrin to Elyas sounded like a very good idea for a moment, until I remembered that it is a female speaking.

#10
There is a full stop rather than a comma between the two parts of speech, so they can refer to two different subjects.
How about an Aiel, who is about to do something fairly suicidal, saying goodbye to an old friend (who is elsewhere and/or dead)
The "Until I dream again" part is her saying goodbye to her current 'dream' and nothing to do with the friend.
#11
A gawking Seanchan woman - can not imagine it being Tuon or Selucia. It has to be someone who doesn't know about Mat's medallion and it can't be someone too subordinate, or they wouldn't address him in this way ( the "One more thing"). The only name that comes to mind at the moment is Tylee, but would she gawk?

edit: typo
Tricia Irish
162. Tektonica
This came out really early today....

"One more thing, the marath'damane . . .
" "I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said.
She gawked at him as if he were insane.

Well.....Mat to Tuon seems likely. Why else would he call them marath'damane? Only a Seanchan would use/understand that word.

Perhaps this is during some sort of negotiation? Before a battle, when cooperation is necessary? During a negotiation to free channelers? A meeting? Maybe Mat's brought Tuon to Merrilor, and she's freaking becuase of meeting with Egwene, etc.?

Ghotam@160: I like that idea too. After all he does have the medallion, so he would feel safe dealing with the AS if he had to rescue Tuon.
Orayelle Johnson
163. Orayelle
"She gawked at him as if he were insane."

Um, everyone should know Mat is insane by now. Just saying.
MartinCahn
164. ethanisrael
I don't think it is Mat to Tuon because she knows of his medallion. She wouldn't react in that manner. Also, I don't think Mat would refer to Aes sedai as channelers.
MartinCahn
165. avox
#10

"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."

I don't think that is said by either Egwene or an Aiel: they always say "may you always find water and shade"

#11
"One more thing, the marath'damane . . ."
"I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said.
She gawked at him as if he were insane.

"Deal with" probably means using his Ter'Angreal. Since Fortuona knows about that, "she" is probably someone else, maybe that Seanchan military woman who helped Perrin.
MartinCahn
166. SPQR78
I personally hate the use of the word 'channelers'. It's such a Sandersonism that takes me out of the world. I don't remember RJ ever using the term.
I agree that Mat wouldn't call Aes Sedai 'channelers'. At least, I hope he isn't! Is he talking about dreadlords? Who else could he be talking about?
I don't think he's speaking with Leilwin. I think it's either Selucia or Tylee.
MartinCahn
167. Robert Edwin
@ 164
Also, I don't think Mat would refer to Aes sedai as channelers.

Well that part is not really up for debate.....:
"I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said.
MartinCahn
168. SPQR78
@167 - I know it's Mat, of course, saying it. I'm just not sure he's referring to Aes Sedai. He could be speaking of Wise Ones, Sea Folk, or dreadlords.
Matthew Smith
169. Blocksmith1
Wow...day 11 early...could we get a double treat today?

Anyway...I agree Mat is speaking to a Seanchan. Tuon, Selucia, and Tylee are my "most likely" guesses, but the context has me concerned.

The use of the terms marath'damane and channelers indicates, to me, some level of anger/frustration with a division of female channelers. This could be Aes Sedai, Windfinders, Wise Women, or possibly even Kin. Mat has had dealings, in some way, with all of those groups.

And since all of the groups have some of their members languishing as damane at the moment, they would all have an ax to grind with the Seanchan. Furthermore, it could be all four of those groups Mat is referring to and therefore, in his mind, it might be easier to say channelers instead of "Aes Sedai, Windfinders, Wise Women, and Kin".

But I still think this indicates a schism or significant problem Mat is either having or acknowledging (with the Seanchan) concerning one of or all or some combination thereof those groups.
MartinCahn
170. Tenesmus
"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."

I think this may be Aviendha saying good bye to someone as she is about to sacrifice herself for Team Light right after she Travels away. Sadly, I think Aviendha will take the advice about changing one of her children's names to the extreme and just prevent them from being born in the first place by going on a Suicide Mission
MartinCahn
171. Jojo-WOTsince1984
Doesn't Tuon know about Matt's foxhead medalion? If I rememeber she was there when the AS tried to channel at him. It was after her "kidnapping" while they were traveling in the managerie.

Tuon does try to ignore the AS, but she is observant and would know about the foxhead. In which case she wouldn't think him insane, at least not for that reason.
Dawn Boyall
172. deebee
Blocksmith1 @169

"Furthermore, it could be all four of those groups Mat is referring to and therefore, in his mind, it might be easier to say channelers instead of "Aes Sedai, Windfinders, Wise Women, and Kin".


That makes sense -after all, what else can you call a collection of saidar users from different cultures?

But gawking somehow doesn't seem like a Seanchan trait- so could it be someone from one of the Seanchan occupied lands who is using the Seanchan term but is in fact a Randlander?
MartinCahn
173. SPQR78
@172 - Gawking, I think, is not an inherently cultural trait.
gawk - look with amazement; look stupidly
I believe the first one, to look with amazement, is what is being done here. That is certainly not Tuon's style. It's got to be another Seanchan- could it be Karede?
Damon Garner
174. IrishOmalley
"One more thing, the marath'damane . . ." "I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said. She gawked at him as if he were insane."

-11- Hmm. Maybe Tylee?
MartinCahn
175. SPQR78
Oops, just realized it is definetly a 'she', so it can't be Karede!
MartinCahn
176. avox
#9
"The letter was written in Mat's hand. And, Elayne noticed with
amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better in this one than the one he'd sent her weeks ago."

My guess: Mat wrote a nice letter where he apologizes to Elayne for not forwarding Verin's warning und thus causing Caemlyn's destruction.
MartinCahn
177. Bael
Great to have another memory so early in the day!

I would agree with those who do not think the gawker is Tuon. She would know of the foxhead and also would not gawk as that would be drilled out of her early in life in the Court of Seandar.

My vote is Tylee as it seems to be a Seanchan woman who thinks strategically and who is unfamiliar with Mat, his foxhead and his general pattern of flippant humor when speaking of death-defying acts of heroism. Witness: Mat's attitude when going off to rescure the Super-Girls when they were held in the Stone of Tear.

Also, the marath' damane usage is only by Seanchan and it seems to me (with others) that it would apply to channelers who do not belong to the AS. Kin, renegade damane who have been loosed/set free? The most likely scenario would for it to be some dreadlords (dread-ladies??) who have taken Tuon hostage and Mat (with Tylee and possibly Karede) is off to the rescue. She may even be collared which could/would bring about the (hoped for) reversal of the slavery of women channelers within Seanchan society. This might even be in the same scene with the previous "memory" from last week that has Mat scowling. No way to know for sure, but it could be the case
Heather Olver
178. Arila
For #10, at first I tried to think of it as an Aiel - the whole "life is a dream" thing. I also hooked in to the idea that it could be two friends who had just wished each other well before separating for two different missions, and the one speaking knows it's a mission from which they won't return. Perhaps the "old friend" would have prevented them from going if they had hinted at the expected outcome. But who could it be? Who would they call "old friend" instead of Car'a'carn etc. It's just too hard to make this peg fit into the hole. It's just not quite right.

Then I started thinking not of the speaker dying and being "reborn" to the dream, but other Dreamers. Would we get such a sympathetic/bittersweet sounding moment from a forsaken? Probably not, so, female dreamers, probably not Aiel - they don't expect to see people in the dream. Also, why would Egwene sound so sad about it? If she could see someone any time she went to TAR, that's like every day! Besides, would she say something like that to any hero of the horn, or a wolf? She hasn't been around Brigit very much except for a few days in Salidar between being raised and sening N&E off to Ebou Dar. Unless, of course, Egwene suddenly melds with her hero-of-the-horn alter ego like Rand has done with LTT, but that seems like something way out of left field, so rejecting that straight out. Also, I don't think it could be any of our young heros anyway. They are (or were, until I passed them up) the same age as I am, and even my life-long friends I probably wouldn't call "old friend". So this doesn't even make sense as Egwene to Perrin.


Therefore, I came to the same conclusion as someone above that it is Brigit saying this after the heros go back to TAR after the big battle. Any one (or all) of them could be "old friends" to her, unlike any of our young heros. It's bittersweet sounding, because, as far as I can remember, we aren't really sure about her hero of the horn status. Is she still bound to the wheel? When she dies, will she re-awaken in TAR? Or...is this the end of the line for her thread? It's still a big question mark, and must weigh heavily on her. Maybe this quote is supposed to give us hope that she thinks she will be back. I'm still in the middle of my re-read, but the last time I "saw" Brigit, she was getting herself drunk almost every night with grief for her failing memories, and anxiety over all she *might* have lost.
Craig Jarvis
179. hawkido
Okay is it just me or did every one get #11 12 hours early!

so here goes:
*begin Quote*
"One more thing, the marath damane..."
"I'll deal with those channelers personally." Mat said.

She gawked at him as if he were insane.
*end Quote*

Well what you guys think?

*Edit* I got this last night around 11:30 PM, but waited to post till near the original time, just in case, someone else one the week one thread also got it 12 hours early. *edit again* after shutting down my browser I see that there are far more comments than when I posted this... that will teach me to leave my browser open all night...*end Edit*

Who is talking to Mat? Possibly Tuon, but has she and would she ever Gawk? I may need to look up Gawk, it may not mean what I think it means. LOL love me some Princess Bride.
Ken England Jr
180. Vambram
Its obvious that whoever is in this scene with Mat:

"One more thing, the marath damane..."
"I'll deal with those channelers personally." Mat said.

She gawked at him as if he were insane.


She is clearly a Seanchan. But who? I am not sure, but the explanation that this person is Tylee makes a lot of sense to me. At first glance, I was thinking she was Tuon. However, the Daughter of the Nine Moons and Empress of the Seanchan does NOT gawk.
Craig Jarvis
181. hawkido
Looked up Gawk... to stare stupidly, or gape.

I can't see Tuon doing that. Perhaps some other Seanchan.

Maybe Mat will try to convince the AS to swear a fourth oath, to obey the Seanchan empress/empire, unless it conflicts with the first three oaths. That might stop the Collaring.
Craig Jarvis
182. hawkido
Tylee makes alot of sense. Good job of that CyberEngland. Now she will have met two of the superboys. The impressedness of it all will be awesomesauce!
MartinCahn
183. SlappytheClown
Day 11: I get the feeling that the first and second lines of this conversation aren't both from Mat. For instance

Speaker 1: "One more thing, the marath'damane..."
Mat: "I'll deal with those channelers personally."

The ellipsis indicate he was interrupting the speaker mid-sentence, which might have led to the following line of the 'memory' (i.e. "How dare you interrupt me"-type thought).

The first speaker is pretty definitely a Seanchan (my first thought was Tuon/Fortuona, but I could see any high-ranking female Seanchan here). The term 'marath-damane' is used almost exclusively by them, unless it was spoken by Egwene or someone else familiar with Seanchan terms. In the case of Egwene, it would have been in italics, to empathize her dislike for the term.

With regards to the 'gawking', if this is from Mat's POV, this would be Mat's impression of the speaker's expression. Thus it would not be a particularly reliable statement.
MartinCahn
184. SPQR78
@183- I always thought it was 2 separate speakers here. Mat would never refer to any woman who can channel as marath'damane.

The more I think on it, I'm fairly certain Mat's speaking with Tylee. And I'd love this, personally. Can you imagine Tylee's reaction to Mat's battlefield genius after her high praise of Perrin's? As great as Perrin was in the Malden campaign, Mat will blow her away if she gets to see him in action.

As stated above, Tuon would neither 'gawk' at anything, nor would she be surprised by Mat's intention to take care of the 'channelers' (grr) personally, knowing of his medallion and his certain disregard for his own safety.

I guess we're getting these before midnight now, instead of around noon EST?
Craig Jarvis
185. hawkido
@183... the Quotes pretty much define that the first speaker is either inturrupted or stalls in their statement, and Mat's comment jumps in and dumbfounds either the first speaker or a prominent "she" to whom Mat was actually addressing when he interjected.

*edit* this is probably chapter 12 or 13 in the book... *end edit*
frits
186. pyrefire
Everyone says that Fortuona does not gawk but why not? She is around a Taveren (don't know the english word) and people do crazy things when a Taveren is around.
'those channelers'..To me it sounds like a select group of damane, not the whole lot. Maybe he is talking about Seta, and the other damane Mat brought with him when he kidnapped Tuon and Selucia...

I say, Tuon to Mat.
Craig Jarvis
187. hawkido
Okay... let's suppose for the #11 memory:

Mat goes to Kill Galgan for the assassination attempts on Tuon's life... finds him with Tylee. They have their bicker feud, and Mat asks why? Galgan says he has to make sure attempts are happening against Toun so those who are hiring don't know that the messages are being intercepted, so he hires dunces, to fill in for the good assassins who were originally going to be hired but never got the message, and the enemy doesn't know that their communications lines have been compromised. Mat asks who is hiring the assassins, and it turns out to be the White Tower. to which Mat responds I'll take care of them. Tylee, who had mostly been a silent observer to the exchange, then goggles at Mat. The scene is from Tylee's viewpoint. That way we get our favorite viewpoint of Mat, from the outside.

If it doesn't happen that way it had better be just as good.
Don Barkauskas
188. bad_platypus
hawkido @187:
It strikes me that "She gawked at him as if he were insane" is written from a POV other than the "she" in the sentence. (While it's possible that only external clues would be used in a POV, I'd expect something like "She gawked at him. Was he insane?" or "She found herself gawking..." if it were from the "she" POV.)
MartinCahn
189. Mehndeke
Is it just me, or does anyone else read Mat's "dealing" with those "channelers" to be in the middle of a battle? A Seanchan leader talking to Mat in the war room has issues with the Dreadlords coming at them, Mat looks at him and say's "I'll take care of em." I just say that because if they were lightside channelers, Mat would probably refer to them as Aes Sedai or Asha'man. Instead he uses a generic "channelers." Seems odd for him to refer to people on his own side like that.
Sam Mickel
190. Samadai
Would it be better for him to say "I'll take care of the Aes Sedai, windfinders, Kin, Wise ones, wilders, Asha'man" ?

He is clearly talking about more than one group of channelers and he is surely not comfortable calling them "those that need to be leashed"
Don Barkauskas
191. bad_platypus
Although I'm one of the quickest to jump on anyone who thinks they know which parts are written by RJ and which by BWS, there is convincing evidence that the choice of the word "channeler" is virtually all BWS.

According to IdealSeek and confirmed by a search in the Kindle versions of the books, the word "channeler" appears exactly twice in NS plus books 1-11: both are Rand's thoughts from his POV, once in TFoH (after the "bubble of evil" incident) and once in ACoS (when they Travel to Ilian to confront Sammael). The word "channelers" appears 8 times, all in the glossary entries for wilder (TDR through ACoS) and Shara (CoT and KoD).

In contrast, "channeler" or "channelers" appears 15 times in TBBoBA, 18 times in TGS, and 31 times in ToM.

RJ's preferred generic phrasing seems to have been "man/woman/someone/people who can channel," which shows up approximately 150 times in NS plus books 1-11, 10 times in TGS, and 4 times in ToM.

So, I think there's fairly conclusive proof of a difference in word choice, which should not be surprising, since BWS has said from the beginning he wasn't going to try to slavishly imitate RJ's style (which was IMO the right choice). When implementing RJ's outline as closely as reasonably possible, he used his own word choices, some of which have definitely been discussed before ("Bloody ashes!"). This is just another example.
T C
192. Freelancer
Given what we know to date, I have to agree that Lieutenant General Tylee Khirgan is a strong front-runner for the "gawker" in this case.

Several possible scenarios:

~ Empress Fortuona has seen "the lion" in action, and knows that he is a tactical battlemaster, so after becoming convinced to work with the Dragon Reborn, she sends Mat to confer with Galgan and Tylee about the Seanchan part in Tarmon Gai'don.

~ Mat seeks out Galgan to deal with him for having sent assassination attempts on Tuon. He finds Galgan and Tylee, and Galgan explains that the "never intended to succeed" attacks he has been sponsoring are for a seperate political purpose, that the Empress is not in danger from him, and convinces Mat of his loyalty. After this, discussion turns to the coming much more important war.

~ As with above, except that Mat finds and kills Galgan, and it is Tylee who post facto explains the non-threatening political nature of the attacks Galgan had commissioned. Tylee notes that Mat shares his accent with a young man she recently conducted an operation with.

From any of those entry points, Tylee (or Galgan if alive) starts to discuss the "marath-damane", and Mat's interrupts, using the generic term "channelers" specifically to display his displeasure with their word, proclaiming that he will handle them personally.

Since neither Galgan nor Tylee have dealt directly with Mat before, they react based upon their existing biases and cultural norms, which include that a man who cannot channel just doesn't blithely consider facing off against multiple women who can.
MartinCahn
193. darvick
Soory, have to go off track here. Does anyone know why Dragonmount is down right now?
Theresa Gray
194. Terez27
Darvick—It's not down at the moment. Every now and then it goes down but usually only for a minute or so, maybe a little longer. It was down for a few days recently, but I think they have dealt with that issue.
MartinCahn
195. darvick
Thanks Terez27
Alice Arneson
196. Wetlandernw
Riffing off Freelancer @192 for a minute - It also occurs to me that Mat has been around the Seanchan enough to know how they react to the term "Aes Sedai." It brings forth all manner of contempt, and they sneeringly insist on calling them marath'damane, so he knows better than to use it. Since he also knows the difference between Aes Sedai and the various other groups (Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin) he may (as others have noted) need a term that will cover them all but NOT imply that he agrees with their idea of "those who must be leashed." It's not an unknown term in WoT; it's in Rand's thoughts at least two times, so why not - with all those memories - in Mat's? And it's certainly the most descriptive term to cover all the groups the sul'dam are interested in collecting. Since RJ repeatedly informed us that he had graciously translated everything into English for us, why not use the most descriptive word available?
MartinCahn
197. dicetosser
the pillar of light quote

off the wall thought What if it is the actual Dark Ones prison?
MartinCahn
198. Perstq
"One more thing, the marath'damane . . ."
"I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said.
She gawked at him as if he were insane.

As the "Prince of Ravens" Mat might be the seanchan eqvivalent of the sea folk Cargomaster (remember "my blades are bare") and as such he is in command of the seanchan army, and the army units - including damane... or something alike...
Birgit
199. birgit
The word channeler might appear more frequently in the later books because there are more different groups of channelers around. When the only known channelers were AS, there was no need for a generic word, but in the Last Battle all the groups will be important.
Craig Jarvis
200. hawkido
Heck before Book 2 there were only Aes Sedai, those who were currently AS and those who would be AS; and False Dragons. The Seanchan were mostly rumor. and before book 3 Wind finders were not know as channelers, and before book 4 Wise Ones were not known to channel. And book 5 were when the Asha'man were first founded.

How many times before this has any one person had to deal cumulatively with all of them. Also, Mat's verbage will always stand out as different from anyone else's, not all of his memories are in the old tongue.
MartinCahn
201. SPQR78
@199 & 200- I get the argument about so many different groups of people who can channel, and calling them channelers, I just don't like it. Don't ask me to come up with something better, though, because I can't!

That whole 'bloody ashes' thing never bothered me at all, though. Seems appropriate for Mat. I don't know why channelers bothers me so much.

I was hoping for a new memory before I went to bed last night!
Craig Jarvis
202. hawkido
Yeah... cruel to give us one so early the night before and now we have a 36 hour wait till this one LOL...
Theresa Gray
203. Terez27
And now they have either 1) decided to push it to the last minute today or 2) forgotten about us altogether.
MartinCahn
204. Cesco of the Tzora Aiel
"Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Seems like this could be Tuon to Mat to me...
Stefan Mitev
205. Bergmaniac
The new bit - "Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Aviendha or Tuon seem the most likely. ;)
S Cooper
206. SPC
My first thought was Tuon, but I agree that could definitely come out of Aviendha's mouth, and she's definitely going to have to talk Rand into it.
MartinCahn
207. mazza3
the lingo seems more tuon-esque, but PLEASE be avi to rand....
MartinCahn
208. Phil C
"Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Tuon to Matt.
Aviendha to Rand.
Berlain to Galad.
Nynaeve to Lan.
The combinations could go on......
MartinCahn
209. Ragenes
Aviendha to Rand
lake sidey
210. lakesidey
"Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Avi to Rand, sez I...

~lakesidey
MartinCahn
211. SPQR78
Pretty sure that's Tuon to Mat. Now that they're married, and in the same city, I think that'll be one of the first things Tuon will want from him....:)
MartinCahn
212. skylatron
I'm in the Tuon -> Mat club.
MartinCahn
213. Al C
Mistress Harfor to Norry?
Demandred to Moridin?
Narg to Bela?

Nah, that definitely seems like an Aviendha quote.
Charles Foster
215. FossMaNo1
I gotta agree... Tuon to Matt. For some reason I can see Matt trying to delay the "nuptuals." Once he's done so, he can no longer convince himself -- even peripherally -- that he's not a married man.
Liz J
216. Ellisande
Thanks to the person who picked these quotes, today's made me laugh.
MartinCahn
217. krakatak
Definitely Tuon -> Mat. It's 'bed' as a verb that clinches it for me...that just doesn't sound Aiel (spec. Avienda) to my ear.
MartinCahn
218. Tenemsus
Easy. Avi to Rand. Perhaps Tuon to Mat, but I don't even think that sex crosses Tuon's mind. She would only say that if she felt she had a duty to the empire.
Matthew Smith
219. Blocksmith1
Week 2 Friday... My guess is either Aviendha to Rand or Tuon to Mat.
Chris Chaplain
220. chaplainchris1
I'm sorry, but where are these bits?? I've registered to receive them, but I'm receiving nothing!
MAtthew Thom
221. zas452
Aviendha to Rand.
ATM- she is not pregnant that we are aware of, and I doubt that AMoL will cover more than 9 months...so I think that Aviendha may sacrifice herself and her children at SG so that the future of the Aiel does not come about, and fulfilling the prophecy of "his blood" at SG.
Opinions?
MartinCahn
222. Repitivity
How did Conan get into this book?! :)
Ken England Jr
223. Vambram
I'm thinking that this latest "Memories of Light" is most likely Aviendha speaking to Rand al`Thor.

However, this could be Tuon talking to Mat, but this does not sound like how she would talk.. even in the two books written by Brandon Sanderson.
MartinCahn
224. Ashnod
Maybe Lanfear to Rand?
MartinCahn
225. Repitivity
I am also going with the Tuon as my guess.

But, for the odd ball theory: Gaidal Cain to Birgitte. Or the other way around....
MartinCahn
226. jclinx
Got to be Tuon...no....more like Fortuona (sp?) to Mat
MartinCahn
227. Pilz
Tuon already said something similar to Mat, "you may kiss me now." Or something like that.
Damon Garner
228. IrishOmalley
"Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Aviendha to Rand... Come on man.
MartinCahn
229. Ghenjei
Easy. Bella to Zombie Narg, after she defeats Fain
Kimani Rogers
230. KiManiak
Memory 12: I would love for this to be Aviendha to Rand.

However, I would only be slightly disappointed if I am wrong and instead this ends up being Tuon to Mat.

Any other 2 characters engaged in this conversation (I know, technically only one person is speaking; however, we can assume that they are talking to someone else) would be far less satisfying.

I also echo Ellisande@216 - thanks for picking this particular quote for today. Put a nice grin on my face.
Kurt Lorey
231. Shimrod
Who is the biggest "talker" out of the main characters?


Mat.

And, whose marriage is yet to be consummated?

Besides, it sounds just like something Fortuona would say.

Fortuona to Mat. Definitely.
Sam Mickel
232. Samadai
Tuon to Mat right after she learns he really can be loyal to her after he confronts Galgan
Sam Mickel
233. Samadai
Chaplainchris1. email irene.gallo@tor.com to get on the list
MartinCahn
234. TopherBob
Pevara to Androl?
MartinCahn
235. Trakand
I reeeealy hope it's Tuon to Mat. But Aviendha to Rand is very likely
MartinCahn
236. krakatak
And my prediction for the next line:

"Does Selucia have to be here the _whole_ time?"
MartinCahn
237. Jojo-WOTsince1984
#12

First thought was Aviendha to Rand.

Why does nobody think it is the reverse. Matt to Tuon (Fortuona??) or Rand to Avi?

Maybe it is part of the Aiel marriage custom. She is explaining to him, that while the woman is the one to lay the bridal wreath at the man's feet, he accepts it by asking her to bed him. The bride can refuse, and knife him, after all she will not be a weak wetlander, and begins to explain to him what else is involved.

Frustrated Rand say "Enough talk. You will bed me now."
MartinCahn
238. SPQR78
@ 217- I agree. First of all, Aiel don't use beds, really, so would they use the verb bed? Possibly given it's written by Sanderson. It comes off as an order, and who do we know that is always giving commands??

haha, just thought, maybe it's Selucia to Mat after a finger command from Tuon to her! I honestly don't believe that, just funny.
MartinCahn
239. aibeira
Moiraine -> Thom?

Seems unlikely, but it had to be suggested.

Most likely is Tuon -> Mat.
Craig Jarvis
240. hawkido
LOL selucia is there during it all and Tuon is waggling her fingers and Selucia MOANS... LOL that scene just broke my brain!!

Poor Mat...
Stephen Betley
241. tifosi
Berelain to the ever white prudish Galad?
Craig Jarvis
242. hawkido
Yeha would Avienda say "Enough talk, Pallet me now!"
Craig Jarvis
243. hawkido
Galad, the Anti-Kirk... Going where most of the wetlands have been already.
MartinCahn
244. Electrokinetic
Betting it's Tuon. Sounds business-like, which is just like her.
MartinCahn
245. Moonstar
ooh, so many options! Aviedha to Rand, Tuon to Mat, Egwene to Gawyn, (though I can't really see her saying that unless she's really desperate), Can't wait to see who it is!
MartinCahn
246. TheEndAlready
You're all sexist. It has to be Rand to Aviendha. Why cannot the man initiate?

Oh, right, its Randland.
MartinCahn
247. itsjustme
Let's throw an odd one out there. How about someone who has absolutely no experience with this sort of thing, and therefore no sense of tact whatsover, Alivia. I have no idea who to though.
MartinCahn
248. Walt Jones
"Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Why was my first thought Tuon to Bela?
S Cooper
249. SPC
I don't think I've ever seen "bed" used as a verb with a man as the object . . . a man beds a woman, women don't bed men. I suppose there's no reason why not, and this is WoT, but it just wouldn't seem like standard usage. I still say it sounds exactly like Tuon. She wants Mat tied to her, and she wants the marriage to be binding. Hence the bedding. And I'm trying really hard not to think about Selucia, thanks people.
MartinCahn
250. Katofthebrownajah
@218: Go read the kissing bits b/w Mat and Tuon in KoD and tell me sex does not cross her mind ;)

Def Tuon to Mat. "Bed" seems more of a seanchan verb than an aiel verb - Avi would probably say "lie with" or some such.
MartinCahn
251. Walt Jones
I didn't know Sidar was failing, just the wards. I thought that was from the Dark One touching the world's food supply. I could be wrong.
William Lusk
252. willsilverwood
Padain Fain to Moridan or Bela to Narg.
I don't like this quote, it seems a bit out there for WoT. I've no problem with fictional characters having sex with other fictional characters, but this doesn't seem particularly passionate, just demanding so I think it might just be one Dark Friend to another.
Or maybe Siuan to Gareth Bryne?
MartinCahn
253. rhandric
I'll throw my vote to Aviendha to Rand
Craig Jarvis
254. hawkido
@250

Tuon wanted to kiss Mat to see if he had a fever... and she knew that was one way to check.

not saying it was her only motive, just the predominant one... I think she was surpirsed how much she liked it. But her first statement was " I thought as much, you are running a fever."
Craig Jarvis
255. hawkido
Erith to Loial... yeah but that has already happened...
Craig Jarvis
256. hawkido
Ohh, maybe it is the most common phrase in this final book... The Peoples from Shara arrive and that is how they greet strangers!

Friendly place... now we know why vistors who cross the wall are never seen from again!
William Lusk
257. willsilverwood
@ 255. hawkido I like that suggestion. Loial is known for talking on and on while forgetting what's important...
Sarah MacBeth
258. Aerie426
I like the ideas so far but I think it sounds like the Sea Folk way of things. Whoever is speaking is below in public and so asserts themselves in private. Unless it's a random folker I like the idea of Nyn and Lan reunited - if he is confirmed as King she would now be the dominant in private. Of course that hinges on wild optimism that not only does he survive but Malkier is restored in some fashion.
Craig Jarvis
259. hawkido
Might take ogier a while to get it on, especially when married so young.
Jim Millen
260. jim.millen
Seriously, how can this one possibly be other than Tuon to Mat? Look;

1) Rand & Avi are out. OK, they don't always communicate well, but they're long since past this degree of formality to each other.

2) It's to somebody who talks a lot, as @231 has already mentioned - sounds like Mat to me. IIRC, Tuon already made a few comments about this whilst they travelled together...?

3) It lines up very well with the weird Seanchan marriage customs - as with some real-world cultures, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a ritual "bedding" was actually part of the ceremony.

4) I can't think of any other couples in the series who would use language like this to each other. DEFINITELY not Perrin & Faile. Moiraine is too Cairhienen to be so outspoken. Not at all right for Nyn & Lan. Etc. etc...

5) As others have said, that tone of command? Totally Fortuona.

I will literally eat my hat if this doesn't turn out to be Tuon and Mat.
Craig Jarvis
261. hawkido
@260

Your Point #4... Needs to be reevaluated... go re-read book two, when Rand Hurin and Loial are in Carhien... those poeple are freakishly demanding.

"a people of careful reserve, that can lead to some outlandishly shocking displays" I believe that was how it was put in the books.
Sean Dowell
262. qbe_64
I like Avi to Rand knowing what we know about chapter 1.

Hopefully, for the eventual film that will be created, it's Berelain to Galad. And they're about to make pretty babies.
Jim Millen
263. jim.millen
@261 - That is true, actually - fair point. But still, I just can't see a Moir/Thom intimate scene getting onto the page, somehow...
jim
264. jesusjesus
It's Captain Mellar to Queen Elayne as he has been waiting 10 Books
to "bed" her.
Rajiv Mote
265. RajivMote
"Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Splendid! Given that we know that Aviendha's on a mission, and she's prophesized to bear Rand's children as well, this is probably the scene where the super-channeler kids are being conceived.

But it sure does fit Mat's bedroom history of late too.
MartinCahn
266. SPQR78
@258 I thought that the marriage vows that Nyn and Lan did were always going to be the way it is- i.e. Lan commands in private, Nyn in public because of the Aes Sedai to Warder relationship. I didn't think they would change with their perspective ranks. Just a thought.

@262- I see what you're saying re: Avi and Rand, but the wording doesn't sound like her. As someone said above, 'lie with me' sounds much more appropriate.
MartinCahn
267. Frankincell
In 14 books, it was Bella's only spoken line...
"Enough talk. You will bed me now."
MartinCahn
268. mezar
I have a feeling it is Avi talking to Rand since we were left with her searching for him in the released chapters of Amol. But i hope it tuon talking to matt. That would be interesting.... It would be like her to give an order like this. Remember her telling Matt out of the blue that he could kiss her?

I also had an odd thought - although unlikely, what if it is Pevara talking to Androl? Did anyone else notice a possible blooming relationship in chapter 2? How ironic would it be for a red to fall in love with a male channeler? I guess we will have to wait and see. Hurry up January!
T C
269. Freelancer
Therava to Galina.

Seriously, this cannot be anyone but Tuon to Mat. Aviendha does have this goal for her and Rand as soon as possible, now that she feels she has earned a status closer to peer with his, but she isn't going to express it in the form of an imperative order, as though Rand must obey. "You will..." is not how one addresses a peer, much less a superior, but a subordinate, a menial. Until they are in a hold belonging to Aviendha, she has no standing to issue such an order, and nothing in her past to this point makes it likely that she would shift customary Aiel behavior that far for her own appetite. OTOH, Tuon doesn't see Mat as a peer in the least (cupbearer, anyone), so it would seem perfectly natural to her to issue this order in this way. We can see that she is capable of romantic feelings, but she has no experience to work from, so the terse, imperative mode is much more in character for her.
Don Barkauskas
270. bad_platypus
I completely agree with jim.millen @260 and Freelancer @269; this has to be Tuon to Mat (although I'm not going to eat my hat if somehow it's not...)

Frankincell @267:
Very nice (accidental?) diss of Twilight...
Skip Ives
271. Skip
Tuon to Mat. The tone just screams imperial majesty. The only way to make it clearer would have been if she used the imperial plural "You will bed us now", but that would have caused a ruckus in the comments. All I could hear is "We are not amused" and Rose and the Doctor tittering about it.
MartinCahn
272. Tenesmus
Cadsuane speaking to Damer Flinn...
Tricia Irish
273. Tektonica
Tuon to Mat or Avienda to Rand! It has her tone of speech too!
MartinCahn
274. Leighton1000
This is when Avi next sees Rand. She's got it bad!
Margot Virzana
275. LuvURphleb
I thought about all the options we have and after reading 227 i do think its mat and tuon.

Berelain and galad wouldnt need the command
Moiraine and thom? Nah
Lan and nynaeve, she isnt forward enough. Remember she likes being with Lan but he picks up on her moods quickly (bks 8&9)
Aviendha and Rand- i think this would just kill the moment
Egwene and gawyn- she is too prudish
Nope definitely tuon. Maybe mats talking about terms between rand and the seanchan and shes like " enough talk. You will be me now."
Theresa Gray
276. Terez27
I'm amazed by all the people who think this is Aviendha. Yes, she and Rand have to shack up at some point, but if Brandon puts that line in her mouth I will egg his house. Has to be Tuon.
Noneo Yourbusiness
277. Longtimefan
I still vote Aviendha. She is direct like that.
MartinCahn
279. DICETOSSER
has to be Tuon to mat can be anyone else.

and i can just see at saying "NO what do you bloody think this is two horses being mated!? Blood and Ashes!" lol
Daniel Goss
280. Beren
My first instinct was Avi to Rand, but after giving it a think I'm gonna come down in the Tuon to Mat camp. In fact, wouldn't it be like Avi to put off their re-coupling (heh) until after the last battle. Something like: "My vision was of my children after the last battle. If I put it off, then Rand must survive because I'm not pregnant yet." Then again, they've debated that kind of thing before and came up with "if Rand wins, visions could work, but if he loses the pattern goes bloop and nothing that was prophesied comes to pass."

So in conclusion: Fortuona is trying to be romantic and failing miserably. Mat is gonna roll his eyes, say something along the lines of 'you know, you're really terrible at this' and . . . fade to black.

-Beren
Theresa Gray
281. Terez27
She's not trying to be romantic. She's just being commanding.

“Toy wishes to be commanding today, Selucia. I will let him command and see how he does.” Bloody kind of her.
minalth minalth
282. minalth
Tuon kissed Mat to see whether he had a fever, and surprised herself.
Fortuona will order Mat to bed her in an attempt to make him more bidable, or easier to negotiate with or something.
It'll backfire.
MartinCahn
283. darvick
Avienda can be demanding too.
This is from FOH.
He took his arms from around her, started to slither away,and she seized a handful of his hair in a painfull grip. If he moved , he would have a bald patch.She gave him no chance to explain anything. " I promised my near-sister to watch you." She seemed to be speaking to herself as much as to him, in a low,almost expressionless voice. " I ran from youas hard as I could, to shield my honer. And you followed me even here. The rings do not lie, and I can run no more." Her tone firmed decisively. " I will run no more."

Or she could have said " Bed me Now!"
MartinCahn
284. Glennrn
I would not rule a man out here. Matt is one suspect. But it does sound like Tuon.
Theresa Gray
285. Terez27
I will bet anyone $100 that it's not Aviendha.
MartinCahn
286. Linzaroon
I am voting for the red sister to the ashaman theory. Fortuona would use the plural if she were insisting on a ritual consumation of the marriage, and Aviendha, if she were being formal, would use Rand's full name. "You will bed me now, Rand al Thor" And I don't think "bed" has an Aiel ring to it. It is, even in Randland, an anachronistic expression, and belongs with someone, like an Aes Sedai, who is linguistically a few hundred years behind the times.
MartinCahn
287. darvick
Though I think Tuon would have said " Bed me now , Toy "
MartinCahn
288. darvick
"Thats what Tylin said ." Scowl
Ian B
289. Greyfalconway
I can't imagine it being Aviendha, ever since way back when we first heard Mins viewing about her babies I've thought its because they either will or won't exist, and the possible future ter'angreal makes me even more sure she will absolutely keep from being with Rand to prevent that from happenening to her people. I don't think 'changing one of their names' will do it for a hardcore Aiel like her.
Alice Arneson
290. Wetlandernw
I'm stunned that there are people who honestly (???) think that Tuon only kissed Mat to see if he had a fever. If true, you seriously do not understand that scene, folks. Please, please tell me you were only joking.
MartinCahn
291. Skyfoo
C'mon peeps. This is gotta be Tuon to Matt. As fierce as the Aiel, they're very tender and intimate concerning love.

Speaking of Tuon.....we want to like her because she likes Matt.....but she is a slave owner, ignorant, and with a gigantic ego. Did I mention she owns slaves!!!!

I'm hoping her fall will be mighty, but ultimately redeaming through her love for Matt. Maybe she will renouce the title of Emperess and go back to Daughter of the Nine Moons......which is the title bound to Rand.....
wes carlton
292. Dorman
Mat: Bed her (Tuon) and Get on with it! Lol
MartinCahn
293. Skyfoo
OK all you Dr. Frank n Furter freaks out there.....get your mind around this.....

Fain to Shaidar Haran!!!!!!!!

Hahahahahhaha. C'mon......it could happen........
MartinCahn
295. Cesco of the Tzora Aiel
@SPQR78: "I thought that the marriage vows that Nyn and Lan did were always going to be the way it is- i.e. Lan commands in private, Nyn in public because of the Aes Sedai to Warder relationship. I didn't think they would change with their perspective ranks. Just a thought."
The Seafolk marriage has been set up this way exactly *because* - during their life - Seafolk mates will change rank numerous times, and sometimes one will outrank the other, and sometimes the other way round. And when this happens, their roles in marriage reverse...
MartinCahn
296. Ghotam
Cadsuane to Tam Al'Thor.
MartinCahn
297. Firefly
Today's Memory of Light is: "Enough talk. You will bed me now."

Not sure if it is just me, but if I were to read or hear this I would automatically think that these two people have never had sex before. If so I doubt one of them would speak this way to the other since the wording here gives a feeling of there being a "barrier" between the two individuals. I mean come on! If were the second, third or hundreth time they were to do this act they would not be speaking like this, right?

Therefore I do not see this being Rand and Aviendha since they have already done the dirty. Remember the night in a snow hole in Seanchan country? So who else could it be besides Tuon and Mat? Hmm, could maybe be something Siuan would say but then I highly doubt that manly man Garth Bryne would be the type that needed to be commanded to do his duty. :P
MartinCahn
298. pyrefire
It could be our always kind and lovely Egeanin, to Domon.

I go for Lanfear to Rand. A moment of weakness, last attempt by lanfear. In the dream Rand had at the of ToM.
Birgit
299. birgit
Tuon wanted to kiss Mat to see if he had a fever... and she knew that was one way to check.

That was just an excuse to cover how much the kiss affected her.

Though I think Tuon would have said " Bed me now , Toy "

She doesn't call him Toy any more. She won that game and after the marriage she calls him Matrim.
Tricia Irish
300. Tektonica
Tuon to Mat seems obvious, BUT....

I still think it could be Aviendha to Rand. She needs to talk to him about her visit to the crystal rods, and the horrible future vision she had there, and what to do about it. So talking to Rand is important...perhaps a big palaver....then....when they've made a plan, and it's getting quiet, she looks up at him, knowing they're going into the Last Battle, and that she wants what her other sisters have had, and says: "Enough talk. Bed me now."

Edit: Oh my...I don't think I've ever snagged the 3 Hunny! Wheeee!
Lorenzo
301. TheZec
The first one that came up to mind was obviously Tuon to Mat, but...

I also tought of Siuan to Gareth - knowing that it very well may be their last chance

Or, less propbable but I'll say it nevertheless... Erith to Loial!
Nadine L.
302. travyl
Definitely Aviendha to Rand (for me): Avi spent enough time with Elayne to know the term "bed." And at the end of chapter two she is on her way to go to talk to Min, and afterwards she will face Rand. - But form Rand she doesn’t want talk.

I very much like that we do not agree on this quote. Especially because most of us are completely confident about who it must be. :)
Theresa Gray
303. Terez27
No one appears confident enough to take my bet. :)
MartinCahn
304. Jix77
Anyone think the Creator may have a few words to say? or do you think he will be non-existent in this chapter?
Nadine L.
305. travyl
Terez @303:
I considered taking the bet, but transferring money between Switzerland and US might not be a good idea :)
Ron Garrison
306. Man-0-Manetheran
Management Services: I still have not received an email even though I have signed up three times.

Jix77 @ 304: The Creator's existance must be taken on faith, but he/she never has anything to say.
Sam Mickel
307. Samadai
Man-o-Manetheren,

Email irene.gallo@tor.com. that is how I got on the mailing list
Alice Arneson
308. Wetlandernw
Man-O-Manetheran - Also, check your "Junk Mail" and "Spam" folders. I don't know about you, but my spam filter gets overly zealous sometimes. I've had to retrieve all manner of good stuff from the garbage... (Ewww!) FWIW, I had to sign up again after this had been going for several days, and then it worked. Sounds like you've tried that, though.

Terez - Not a chance, here. :) I don't have an extra $100 to throw away. I can't see it being anyone but Tuon to Mat. The wording just doesn't fit Aviendha, nor does the manner.
Stefan Mitev
309. Bergmaniac
If you aren't getting the emails, try following Irene's instructions from Post #152 in the Week One thread. It worked for me, I didn't get the first two emails, but after I followed those instructions, everything was fine.
Katie Frey
310. TalithaSedai
#13

"We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."



Balefire? Something new?
MartinCahn
311. badger126
"We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."

This could be balefire, but I would bet that it is a weave we haven't seen yet! Exciting!
MartinCahn
312. miceli86
My first thought was Balefire. Next, came Compulsion. But thinking about it Balefire seems out to me. The Aiel strike me as a people who would use any weapon they could against the Shadow Souled at the very least.
My new thought is that she learns of some new weave in The Way Forward ter'angreal. She sees how the use of this new weave has devastated the Aiel in the future. When she returns to the Fields of M, shed sees that the new weave has been discovered by one of Rand's/Egwene's allies and now the Wise Ones must convince them the use of this weave will lead to the Aiel's destruction.
Heather Olver
313. Arila
Day 13: I think this is the wise ones' reaction to balefire.
MartinCahn
314. IsleofMadMen
"We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."

The obvious choice is balefire. However, I don't think that weave is widely known. Could there be another weave, perhaps a new discovery?

It could mesh nicely with the theory that Rand must be balefired to avoid being captured by the Dark One when dying before his triumphant return. If it happens in a very public way, it could lead to the general knowledge of the weave and the desire to use it for revenge.
Niraj Merchant
315. NirajMerchant
"We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."


I dont think its baelfire, because no one really knows the weave anyway, so spreading the news would not really help.

It has to be a well known weave which now turns out to have some harmful side effects. For some reason I thought of travelling, but dont really have a justification as to why it should be.

Though I cannot think of any other weave that everybody would know which suddenly nobody should use.
Jeremy Goff
316. JeremyM
My inital reaction was balefire as well, but it just seems like too obvious of a choice. My guess is that it's a new weave that stresses the pattern not unlike balefire. Either that or it is the obvious choice and they have been using balefire too much and the pattern is starting to unravel.
MartinCahn
317. pyrefire
Balefire would be too obvious, i think. Maybe it has something to do with a weave that is no longer working against the Dark forces. Maybe the allies found a wrong way to 'convince' Rand not breaking the seal.

Or she's just making a new carpet...
Cameron Tucker
318. Loialson
Balefire, as others have agreed, but I can't think of any new weave that may be that damaging.
MartinCahn
319. MorgaseTrakand
I want to go back a day and add a possibility on the "bed me now" comment that I don't think has been suggested yet:

How about Morgase to Tallanvor?
Cameron Tucker
320. Loialson
@319 MorgaseTrakand
Pretty sure that consummation has happened already, on their wedding night.
Tricia Irish
321. Tektonica
Could be Balefire, of course. Perhaps they've just discovered that the three oaths limit your life span? Better warn the AS!! Haha. (I'm being facetious.) I have no clue.
MartinCahn
322. chibimin
How about Aviendha's time-travelling weave?
wes carlton
323. Dorman
Im thinking it,s Avs weave she left untied making The Jump to get away from the seachan! Boom: Nuked Em!
Alice Arneson
324. Wetlandernw
My best guess is still balefire. I know it seems too obvious, but Rand has been (over-)using it, and Nynaeve & Moiraine have both used it as well. Rand has taught some of the Asha'man as well, since it's the only way to permanently remove a Forsaken. Most of the Aes Sedai who know the weave also know to their bones the prohibitions against using it, but it's not clear that others would necessarily accept the prohibition, given that it looks like such a useful sort of thing. I think Amys has learned something that has convinced her that balefire has been used too much, and the Pattern is right on the edge of what it can take. It may be that Bair learned something on her trip to Rhuidean that, in conference, they determined to be balefire damage to the Pattern.

The one argument against it (aside from "too obvious!") is that it was considered a lost weave, and there's no indication that any of the "allies" Amys mentions would know the weave anyway. In that case, why spread the word? Unless the weave had already (earlier in AMoL) been spread by some who learned it without learning the consequences.

It pretty much has to be either a fairly new weave, or a new way of creating an old weave. It has to be something that has been passed around enough that the allies have been using it with relative impunity. And it has to be something that causes previously unseen damage, or something that makes the user vulnerable to some form of interference or harm. We know that Traveling, while new to this Age, was used quite commonly in the previous Age, and didn't cause any discernable damage. The only thing that seems to fit the bill is balefire, which requires the assumption that the weave has been taught widely.

Huh. I'll look forward to finding out about this one!
Sorcha O
325. sushisushi
I would agree that Amys is talking about balefire, particularly during or just before the Last Battle. The reason why it had fallen out of use during the previous age was that its overuse was starting to disrupt the fabric of reality, which is exact what the Light side are fighting against. I would imagine it would be particularly destabilising at a point where so many of the seals on the Dark One's prison have been broken, and he was able to have the level of influence that we've seen in the last book or so. I wouldn't fancy the chances of the Pattern staying intact when all of the seals were broken and there was lots of balefire being thrown about. That sounds like a good way to let the Dark One and Moridin have their victory of total annihilation (rather than the more average Darkfriends vision of a world with them in charge), and it would make sense that Amys would want to warn the other channelling groups to stop this from happening. How she finds this out is purely speculation, mind you. Who do we know that knows the balefire weave? Moiraine, Nyneave, Rand and some of the older Aes Sedai? Narishma and some of Rand's Ashamen?
Daniel Goss
326. Beren
Healing. Causing someone to not die when they were supposed to do is causing undue stress on the Pattern, and with a battle coming up there are going to be a lot of people dying. Healing would cause the pattern to have to re-integrate all those threads that were supposed to have been safely snipped, which could cause a serious tangle in the Age Lace, resulting in a sub-optimal and, let's face it, very tacky end-result.

-Beren

(seriously, I have no idea, and all the good arguments both for and against real candidates have already been made . . . so ridicuouls humor it is!)
Margot Virzana
327. LuvURphleb
We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."

Dont really have much of a thought on todays thread but my husband thought it could be related to Aviendhas unweaving trick though thats not really a weave per se.

My first thought was actually more torwards the traveling weave but not sure why they cant use that either.
Maybe its balefire but also everyone already knows not to use balefire so that seems kind of redundant
MartinCahn
328. humite
Nothing in the quote explicitly says that anyone but the speaker and her audience currenly DOES know the weave.
Just that it is implicit that no one uses it going forward.
It is probably likely that the obvious answer is the case, but for it to be certain that we're talking about a weave that is known by these allies would be to finish the quote with the word 'again'.

"We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave again."

But it doesn't say that. It just says we must not use it - no different than the ban on compulsion or balefire- weaves held by the tower as being off limits - even though most aes sedai don't even know the weaves to begin with.
Again, in all likelihood, I'm just throwing a semantics wrench into this for the sake of practicing my throw, but the tone of the quote almost sounds like Amys is suggesting that this is serious enough that word should be sent to allies to jointly enter into a covenant - not to use a certain weave - even though a lot of those entering the covenant don't currently know the weave as it is, everyone just nod your heads that if you do run across the training manual/cliff's notes/etc. for this weave - DO NOT READ IT.

What might fit that category? I don't know. Is there a weave out there that may be counter-productive to mass generation of 'belief and order', that might strengthen TAR's grasp on the 'real' world, that might keep the Aiel from singing?
Theresa Gray
329. Terez27
travyl—PayPal is a wonderful thing. :)
MartinCahn
330. Skyfoo
Question to you all - is there any other harmful weave we know of other than Balefire? I don't think so.

It's either Balefire or something new.

Could we be instore for some Balescreaming.......probably.
Theresa Gray
331. Terez27
There are plenty of harmful weaves. Compulsion, for example. The girls learned it from Moghedien so that they could defend against it, but they won't teach it to anyone.
Deborah Kay-Morgan
332. moondivatx
Well in an earlier memory email...the ways were mentioned. Could it be traveling? That was my first thought.
Woohoo...one month!!
herid fan
333. heridfan
@324. Wetlandernw It's a good point that Traveling didn't seem to have caused problems during the war of the Power. However, judging by Rand's visions in Rhuidean (the seed singing scene) the Pattern wasn't quite in as bad a state at the moment of the Sealing as it does at the moment. Saidin Traveling at least might be damaging the Pattern (Rand said it involves boring a hole in the Pattern), not sure if saidar traveling does though. It doesn't sound like it should. There are other problems with this memory referring to Traveling, however. If it means Traveling it's not clear how the Aiel are supposed to inform all their allies not to use it. It's unlikely the scene takes place at Merrilor which is far from anywhere and there is no way to quickly reach or leave it other than by gateway. They could use dreamwalkers but Bair is in Rhuidean and only two dreamwalkers are there. Judging by what Amys told Rand in TSR, ch 34 it would take a long time for them to contact everybody. On the other hand, if it does mean Traveling that would neatly tie in with memory #7 and also Rand's statement in LoC, ch 14 that he wante dto cleanse the Ways because they might have to be used. Sealing the Bore won't do anything to the Ways and it would be very strange if the Ways were left tainted past the LB. I'm pretty sure they will be cleanes one way or the other.
Damon Garner
334. IrishOmalley
"We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."

The few of you who suggested traveling seem to be closest to the point of a weave that is well known yet previously thought harmless. I think the tone of the quote implies something that is previously thought harmless.
MartinCahn
335. iSpradlin
I have a bad feeling this one ties back to the wards woven by saidar--and maybe saidin too. Remember something bypassing wards and fouling the food? Remember Cyndane breaking into Rand's dreams? My guess is that the shadow has a way of exploiting some weakness in wards using TP or just lots of expertise.

Anyone for the light using such wards, then--almost every person who can channel--is leaving themselves vulnerable. Thus, the need to stop these from being used AGAIN. Dreams are too good a way to wring intel and/or destroy a person from a distance...
Kartikeya
336. Kartikeyags
I suspect it may be balefire too. I know this is obvious, but you have to recall that so few people alive today actually know of balefore, let alone the weaves for it. Similar to the discovery in the War of the Shadow, the forces of Light must be rediscovering the risks of using balefire undiscriminately. Plus, this is the last book - no introducing any Hallows at the last minute as some sort of deus ex machina!
Matthew Smith
337. Blocksmith1
I have to agree with most that the seemingly too obvious answer is balefire.

The other direction would be as many others have indicated...a weave previously thought harmless and/or safe that is now for some reason susceptible to the Dark Ones manipulation or access. Since T'A'R can be accessed by non channelers it would seem that is still "safe".
Jessica McAlister
339. dellyphio
I agree that it may be traveling. My reasoning is because traveling has to do with the Pattern. Rand says when he travels, he bends the Pattern so that the two places are close, then he bores a hole. I can't remember how it's done with Saidar, but when Egwene travels to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, she creates a similarity between a place and it's image. Since there's an extra amount of stress on the Pattern, traveling may start to fail or do things the weaver didn't intend.
MartinCahn
340. Skyfoo
-As far as harmful weaves, I meant harmful to the weaver. Obviously Cumpulsion is no bueno for the receiver!

-Other than the obvious Balefire, this could be anything.

-Here's a new thought, what about something to do with stepping into the dream in the flesh? Something the Wise Ones vehemently oppose, without any real reason. And, something the Choosen did regularly.

Just a thought...........
lake sidey
341. lakesidey
I'd think Balefire too.

But for argument's sake, if it were Travelling, it makes sense that the Dreamwalker Wise Ones would be the ones to find out a problem with it - they have cautionary tales about travelling into the World of Dreams in the flesh, and Egwene's Travelling comes too close to that for their comfort. They would probably look at it very closely for evidence of anything wrong. Saidin travelling sounds very different, but how would the Dreamwalkers know that? Again the lack of info!

And yes that ties in with the need to use the ways again....

~lakesidey
lake sidey
342. lakesidey
Afterthought: Unless, of course, Amys has discovered a backdoor entry weave which allows anyone (or any channeler, at least) to channel the TP :P

~lakesidey
Chris R
343. up2stuff
Traveling MIGHT be the weave that mustn't be used anymore. Might explain why Perrin's & Galad's attacker was using a portal stone and why someone suggested Ituralde use the Ways.
Liz J
344. Ellisande
Perhaps it's not so much that Traveling hurts the Pattern, but that the Pattern is so disrupted already that gateways aren't connecting properly? A dreamwalker could find out that someone who was supposed to have reached a certain destination ended up in the wrong place. If Traveling becomes unpredictable or dangerous, it's not much use. And that's information a dreamwalker can spread (they can tell Egwene for one thing) and a weave they know the Lightside depends on.

Balefire of course fits as a bad weave to use, but unless there's a sudden rash of secondary characters learning and using it, most everybody 'in the know' about balefire also knows the Pattern is distintegrating and balefire hurries that process. Rand certainly knows and understands that better now. If it's balefire, it's not only obvious to us, it's obvious to most of the characters who can use it, so it's not much of a revelation.
Birgit
345. birgit
Traveling MIGHT be the weave that mustn't be used anymore. Might
explain why Perrin's & Galad's attacker was using a portal stone and
why someone suggested Ituralde use the Ways.

Trollocs cannot survive using gateways. That is why the Shadow needs alternative ways of transport.
Chris R
346. up2stuff
True, but neither has been especially prominent lately. Between that and the rubble that USED to be Caemlyn, there is now a legitimate reason for the lightsiders to use them.
MartinCahn
347. MahaBobatman
Long time lurking, first time commenting. Perhaps this prohibition is because the forces of the Light have boobytrapped the Ways (you can get in but you can't get out or...) or some other means that the Shadow needs to use to move their armies, so Amys is trying to make sure that all the factions of the Light not to use that partular mechanism that's been boobytrapped. And, yes, there's already a very nasty thing in the Ways but that didn't stop Caemlyn from falling.
Stefan Mitev
348. Bergmaniac
The new one:

"That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever."

Cadsuane? Pevara? Egwene?
Katie Frey
349. TalithaSedai
Surprised this isn't up yet.

Memory # 14

That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever.

It say's "replied back"? but the memory doesn't use quotation marks? some sort of...telepathic communication? o.O this seems new....
Or is she just "replying back" in her own thoughts.....

oh duh, Maiden handtalk >.
MartinCahn
350. garrek42
re:#14 linguistically "she replied back" could be in a non verbal communication such as the maiden's hand talk, or the Seanchan's sign language for comunications between the blood and their hereditary servants.

I'm very curious what they might have said to garner such a response, it could be as simple as "You're a liar" though.
Dan
351. Vecther
#14

Probably conversation in the Black Tower?
Rob S
352. RobSS
#14...Ok Mister Letterman

Top 10 things not to say to Aes Sedai
Colin
353. Abstieg
@350

Handmaidens talking about Rand being rude to Aes Sedai?
MartinCahn
354. MartinCahn
I would agree that you would never say to an Aes Sedai that they are lying/have lied. However, that could be a misdirect. After all, they have been known to ... omit. This could be something else. If the respondent believes in herself as a true Aes Sedai (and not Black Ajah), could the comment have been that they serve the Dark One?

On a really out there note, could the original speaker have made some really bad sexual comment? Even the greens, who are much more casual than their other Sisters, don't exactly take kindly to sexual references.

More than likely, it's nothing like either of these. Can't wait to see...!
Rob Campbell
355. rccampbe
garrek42 @350 - I think you're right about the non-verbal communication. So I'm guessing maiden handtalk while witnessing Rand say something bold to some AS. Something like: 'Kneel and swear to me', 'I am going to bond you as my Warder', 'Form a circle and I will lead'.

RobSS @352 - Fun guesses for the top ten. Of course I see them coming from Mat and inducing Seanchan hand talk: 'Try and stop me', 'You look good for your age', 'Just don't give me a tickle and a pinch'
MartinCahn
356. avox
Here are some ideas for a top 10, order them yourself:

I demand that you do X!

I think you are Black Ajah!

Don't lie to me!

Hey, witch!

You are looking very old.

So what do you want to do? Kill me with the One Power, hahaha?

What's that snake on your ring doing, masturbating?

Aes Sedai could do a much better job if they had balls.

I've seen chicken with more decorum than your lot.

I'd rather drink tea with the Dark One than with an Aes Sedai.
MartinCahn
357. moondivatx
One never discusses age or strength to an AS.
Stephen Betley
358. tifosi
Yes your bum does look big in that!
MartinCahn
359. circles_r_pointless
this one is easy.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"NO."

That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever.
Kerwin Miller
360. tamyrlink
Maybe someone called one of the sisters too young or old and weak in the Power besides.
Rajiv Mote
361. RajivMote
That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever.

Obviously this is in response to Logain saying, "You know, the White Tower probably wouldn't have been mired in centuries of bureaucracy, in-fighting and bickering if it just put a man in charge."
MartinCahn
362. avox
Thinking about it, "Enough talk. You will bed me now." is also a good candidate for something you should never say to an Aes Sedai...
Ian B
363. Greyfalconway
This could be Pevara and Androl trying out their new 'almost telepathy' double bonding, her emphasizing the words/feelings so much to get the message content through clearly, ala Perrin and the wolves.
MartinCahn
364. garrek42
@circle_r_pointless

best suggestion so far lol
MartinCahn
365. Repot ivory
I think this maiden hand talk about Rand telling Aes Sedia they are wrong and do not know as much about a topic as they think they do. He probably called them "little sister" at the same time...
Sorcha O
366. sushisushi
moondovax@357 I think you're probably right, although I can only speculate how much fun it would be if it was actually Pevara's reaction to:
'Is that an angreal in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?'
Sorcha O
367. sushisushi
Rajivmote@361 As opposed the the Black Tower which has been around for all of, oh, five minutes and has already been turned into a Dreadlord factory, hmmn? :p
MartinCahn
369. miceli86
@368 It's not redundant if you are talking about a long distance communications device. We do say it all the time in phrases like, "And then he texted me back," or "My boss just replied back to my earlier e-mail."
We know, or are pretty sure, the Lightsiders had some of these long range comms ter'angreal at the Camelyn Palace at a certain point. My first though upon reading this with no quotes and in italics like that was some sort of comms device.
MartinCahn
370. Vecther
#14

Or better yet.. Maybe a dreadlord's asking one of the red from the White tower if it can bite her neck for some blood. :p *seriously* I hope the new dreadlord is not anything like a vampire.
Alan Courchene
371. Majicou
@369: It is, regardless of the means of communication, because "reply" already means answering an earlier message. The verb "text" doesn't mean that, so it can be used with "back." You might be sending the first text in a conversation, but a reply is always "back."
MartinCahn
372. avox
@371

What if it really is some telepathic channel between Androl and Pevara?
Then "back" means that Pevara replied in the same manner as the original message from Androl, and not verbally.
Alice Arneson
373. Wetlandernw
Majicou - Normally I would agree with you, and it was my first reaction as well. There are a couple of possibilities, though, that might be mitigating factors. One is that these were taken from an ARC and it's an error that was corrected in the publication version. Another is that in context, it actually makes sense, and was used to provide a particular emphasis; e.g., "answer back" is also technically redundant but carries an implication that "answer" does not. I think we'll have to wait and see.
marty compton
374. bellybeast
Couldn't it be a Min viewing ... she sees Egwene and the frozen glass pillar and Min herself cant interpret it?
MartinCahn
375. darvick
10. I'm your Warder
9. I love you :-)
8. I'll beat you in wrestling
7. Your so fine, I never thought this song was about you.
6. Heal me Please !!
5. Give me H--d
4. I can channel
3. Bed Me Now :-)
2.Your beautiful
1. I am the Dragon Reborn .....
MartinCahn
376. Skyfoo
How about just - "YOU are WRONG!"

Aes Sedai are egomaniac, ignorant, bullies. Just telling them "No!" is a major threat to their pride and stability.

A lot of people are guessing supporting characters, but it seems like Rand or Matt to me.
MartinCahn
377. zantose
Maybe somebody suggested that Aes Sedai should mate with men who can channel to increase thier numbers....
MartinCahn
378. MountainDancer
the answer to #14

"That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever."

Is Pevara talking to Androl (no question about it!) :)
Jonathan Levy
379. JonathanLevy
Day 14:

"Why yes, that dress does make you look fat!"
lake sidey
381. lakesidey
“It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.

Taim? Puhleeze....? Would redeem Cads...

~lakesidey
Damon Garner
382. IrishOmalley
“It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.

- Cadsuane to Moridin as she prepares to disrobe... O_o
MartinCahn
383. avox
Hm, maybe simple for the Black Ajah or for Ashaman.

Btw, is there a separate thread for week 3?
lake sidey
384. lakesidey
She wants to stop his heart, IrishOmalley, not strike him blind....
.
...but I wonder, if she is free of the oaths? Or is it a known darkfriend whose heart she plans to stop? She has lived suspiciously long for an oath-bound AS, after all...

Edit: I was wondering the same thing avox, I checked before I posted today's memory, but there were no new threads in the pattern. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills?

~lakesidey
Stephen Betley
385. tifosi
Broken link to wk3 thread... the shadow has tainted it!
Heather Olver
386. Arila
Aww, as if Cadsuane is not scary enough! And she's broken week 3!
MartinCahn
387. Cesco of the Tzora Aiel
The 3rd week thread has fallen to the 2nd Breaking!... :(
herid fan
388. heridfan
@lakesidey 384 Cadsuane has the ageless look and RJ said that all three oaths are needed to create it. So I assume she is bound by the oaths. The quote does say that it's easy to stop the heart with the power. But it does seem to imply it. How is Cadsuane at Healing? Liandrin mentioned in TSR that the two abilities go hand in hand.
Rajiv Mote
389. RajivMote
“It is a simple thing, to stop a man’s heart,” Cadsuane said, arms folded.

It looks like Cadsuane is teaching Alivia to do something the Oaths forbid her from doing: "helping Rand to die," which Rand is counting on Alivia to do. Sure, Alivia knows more ways to use the Power as a weapon than anyone, but she probably needs training to kill Rand with finess, in a way that will allow Nynaeve to resurrect him three days later.
Chris Lough
390. TorChris
@385, 385, and 387. Hah! Sorry about that, folks. We forgot to flip the switch on Week Three. It's live now.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/12/spoiler-thread-for-the-memories-of-light-week-three

(And hooray! Cadsuane! This is one of the Memories we couldn't wait for ya'll to see.)
MartinCahn
391. Trogdor
@388, not to support the theory that Cadsuane is a DF, but if she isn't bound by the oaths it's possible that she could use an illusion weave to give herself the look of an oath-bound woman. Possible doesn't mean likely, but still...
Sarah MacBeth
392. Aerie426
@391, She's only just learned how to invert weaves so that wouldn't have worked.
The BA are still bound, they just have different oaths to replace the three. Which I'm hoping will be revealed in this last book by the way.
It's possible that she could be teaching Ali to use the power for that purpose. Eg's POV previously proved that weaves that were harmless in some situations still couldn't be used to kill as the intention would be restricted by the oaths. Much the same as her water jug incident while in the a'dam. In theory Cads could demonstrate weaves she couldn't use in practise as her intentions were not to harm, merely to instruct. The AS must have a way to teach these weaves after all, otherwise they would be unprepared when they can fight.
MartinCahn
393. Trogdor
@392, just speculation. If in fact she was freed from the oaths she could easily lie about what weaves she knows and what she doesn't. I don't think that's whats going on, I was just pointing out what any good conspiracy theorist could construct.
Alice Arneson
394. Wetlandernw
For anyone who hasn’t been receiving the emails, here is the set of Memories for the second week:

8. Egwene strode around a frozen pillar of glass in her dream. It almost looked like a column of light. What did it mean? She could not interpret it.

9. The letter was written in Mat's hand. And, Elayne noticed with amusement, the handwriting was much neater and the spelling much better in this one than the one he'd sent her weeks ago.

10. "And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again."

11. "One more thing, the marath'damane . . ." "I'll deal with those channelers personally," Mat said. She gawked at him as if he were insane.

12. Enough talk. You will bed me now.

13. "We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."

14.That, she replied back, is something one should never, never say to an Aes Sedai. Ever.

For discussion of 1-7, go to the first Memories spoiler thread; for 15 and on, go to the third (and on).
Rajiv Mote
395. RajivMote
I just re-read the part in The Great Hunt where Fain tells High Lord Turak he "must..." and is taught that some things one never says to the High Lord. It would be fun if a Seanchan learned a similar lesson from an Aes Sedai.
Daniel Sahlman
396. Lazlo
I think quote 14 is being said to Mat (not a tough guess there), but I think its either Setalle Anan or Tesyln saying it to him
MartinCahn
397. Phil C
"Do not cut off your foot for fear that a snake will bite it, Perrin Aybara. Do not make a terrible mistake because you fear something that seems worse. This is all I will say on the topic."

Said by whichever Wise One was standing next to Perrin at the time.
Melissa Spray
399. meowwl
"We must spread the word to all of our allies," Amys said. "We must not use this weave."

I'm fairly sure it's Balefire...I've a theory that the whole "bubbles of Evil" and food spoilage phenomenon is because the pattern is getting too thin to keep the DO out.

Travelling is another possibility, but way lower on the probablility scale. Though male travelling punches a hole in the pattern, it does so without breaking the strands...kind of like a needle through cloth...and female travelling does so by folding it.
MartinCahn
400. ChuckFrank3
Concerning Memory 10:
I hope it isn't, but I think it is Egwene to Perrin. He dies, Mat blows the horn, Heros of the Horn do their thing, Perrin throws the deuce, heros are recalled, and Egwene is all like
"And farewell to you, old friend," she said to the air. "Until I dream again." Egwene knows the heros can be reached in Tel'aranrhiod.
I mean if Perrin dies, how is he NOT a hero of the horn? He is Thor after the ages twist the tale.
Birgit
401. birgit
If Perrin goes to TAR after he dies because he is a Hero he will probably think it is just because he is a wolfbrother and be surprised when the Horn calls him.
Alice Arneson
402. Wetlandernw
birgit - you made me literally laugh out loud! You're probably right, too!
Charles Francis
403. ChuckFrank3
Birgit and Wetlandernw - I agree, it would be hilarious. However, if Bridget Silverbow is any indication of what happens when a HotH dies, they remember/find out they are a HotH, along with the rules that go with being an unborn HotH.
MartinCahn
404. majlingm
I haven't spent much time browsing forums and reading the different theories, so correct me if this theory is old.
Why is saidar and saidin really called "The One Power"?
Could it be that they are actually one to begin with and split somehow in an age long ago, maybe by the DO as a punishment similar to the taint. Maybe Callandor is the KEY to combining them again?
If Rand could combine them again everyone would be able to channel this new power and he wouldn't need the women.
The DO only has one power thats used by women and men alike, why should the creators power be divided?
MartinCahn
405. dalamarx
everyone seems to have forgotten Fain in their interpretations.
Alice Arneson
406. Wetlandernw
@404 - No. The True Source doesn't work that way; part of the basic world-building of WoT is that men and women need to work together.

@405 - No. IMO, he'll provide the buffer between the DO and the One Power when Rand, Nynaeve and Moiraine repair the Bore.
MartinCahn
407. jedijson
"frozen glass" is exactly what it is: frozen glass. Remember, glass is a liquid. Set a glass bottle down on its side and leave it long enough, and the bottle will flatten on that side. Look at really old window panes: they are streaked. Why? Because glass is a liquid. It flows very, very slowly, true, but it is still considered a liquid. NOT a solid.

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