Feb 21 2012 2:00pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Gathering Storm, Part 20

The Wheel of Time reread on Tor.comLaissez le bon temps rouler, WOTers! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Re-read!

Today’s entry covers Chapter 36 of The Gathering Storm, in which there is a Major Character Death – but it’s not what you think! Oh, so sneaky.

Today’s post is a short one because it is Mardi Gras here in my fair city of New Orleans, the first one I’ve been able to be here for since 2006, and I really trust that no further explanation is needed.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general, including the newest release, Towers of Midnight.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 13, Towers of Midnight. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And now, the post!

One brief note before we start: as no doubt most of those who follow this blog are already aware, the date for the release of the 14th and final novel in the Wheel of Time series has been set for January 8, 2013. Huzzah!

I also understand that this has occasioned an outburst of indignation from some quarters in the comments, from people who think that the release date should be earlier because… well, because they want it to be, from what I can tell. Sort of like how my one and a half-year-old nephew wants his lunch now, now, right now, and doesn’t understand that food doesn’t just appear like magic, it has to be chopped and peeled and mixed and heated and generally prepared before he can have it, otherwise he’s not going to like it very much. The difference between the two situations is, my nephew is a toddler whose brain is not yet developed enough to fully grasp things like this; I’m really not sure what the former group’s excuse is.

There are many other things I could say in response to those who feel that this news has inexplicably betrayed them in some way, but I really do think Neil Gaiman’s sentiments still sum it up best: Team Jordan is not your bitch, and no amount of petulant whining is going to alter that fact. If your biggest problem is that you have to wait longer than you thought you would for the release of a fantasy novel, you are leading an absolutely charmed life, and you might want to give some consideration to being thankful for that, and finding something else to do in the meantime.

ObSheesh: Sheesh.

Moving on!


Chapter 36: The Death of Tuon

What Happens
Verin explains to Mat, Mandevwin, Talmanes, and Thom that she left Rand in Tear, and had originally intended to head to Tar Valon, but ended up here instead, hundreds of leagues away. Mat doesn’t understand how that could have happened, especially since Verin knows how to Travel, and says so. He notes her distracted air so typical of Browns, and thinks to himself that his memories of Verin are fuzzy, but that he thinks he remembers that from before as well.

This time, studying her, her mannerisms seemed too exaggerated to him. As if she were leaning on the preconceptions about Browns, using them. Fooling people, like a street performer taking in country boys with a clever game of three-card shuffle.

She eyed him. That smile on the corner of her lips? That was the smile of a jackleg who didn’t care that you were on to her con. Now that you understood, you could both enjoy the game, and perhaps together you could dupe someone else.

Verin tells Mat, to his discomfiture, that were it not for Rand’s existence, Mat would the most powerfully ta’veren individual in centuries, and that he had yanked her halfway across the continent as a result. She had realized once she figured out what was happening that it had to be either Mat or Perrin, since she had easily been able to leave Rand. Mat asks if Rand is mad yet, and Verin replies that she thinks he is, more from sheer stress than from the One Power, but still in control of himself. She then informs Mat, to his shock, that Rand cleansed the taint from saidin; he is more astonished by the fact that she seems to consider the news of fairly little importance.

“[…] I would argue that the cleansing itself is more like a pebble thrown into a pond. The ripples will take some time to reach the shore.”

“A pebble?” Mat asked. “A pebble?”

“Well, perhaps more of a boulder.”

“A bloody mountain if you ask me,” Mat muttered.

Verin explains how after she left Tear, each time she tried to learn a spot well enough to Travel to Tar Valon, some random chance occurrence or mishap would prevent her from doing so. Then she says she began feeling a “tugging” on her, and Mat recognizes the feeling and describes it to her. She says she then tried to travel by more mundane means, and then by Skimming, but every time she and Tomas found themselves traveling south instead of north, and are now here just when Mat needs someone he trusts who can transport him to Caemlyn quickly. Then she tells him they need to discuss the price for her help. Mat is indignant, but she tells him she can do things for him no one else could. She pulls out the picture of Mat she’d been circulating.

“You didn’t ask where I got this.”

“You’re Aes Sedai,” Mat said, shrugging. “I figured you... you know, saidared it.”

Saidared it?” she asked flatly.

He shrugged.

She tells him she got it from a Darkfriend who believed Verin was also a servant of the Shadow, and told her that one of the Forsaken has commanded that both the men in these pictures must be killed. Mat feels a chill, but points out that Darkfriends have been trying to kill him since before he left the Two Rivers, so he doesn’t see what difference it makes. Verin tells him this is different, and urges him to go into hiding for the next few weeks. Mat shrugs and agrees to disguise himself. Verin then gives him a letter, but prevents him from opening it, and tells him her price for bringing him to Caemlyn is that he open the letter on the tenth day after she leaves him and follow the instructions inside. Mat tells her he passes; he won’t agree to it without knowing what the instructions are first.

“I’ll be in Caemlyn in twenty days of marching, anyway.” He pushed open the tent flaps, gesturing out. “I’m not going to have you tying strings around me, woman.”

She didn’t move, though she did frown. “I had forgotten how difficult you can be.”

“And proud of it,” Mat said.

Verin says she won’t tell him what the letter says because she hopes to return and make the instruction in it unnecessary, but she offers a compromise: Mat can choose not to open the letter, but in that case he must wait in Caemlyn for fifty days. Mat bargains her down to thirty days, and accepts. He notes that her satchel has more letters like his in it, and wonders what they are; then he resolves not to open the letter no matter how curious he is. He sends Mandevwin to begin breaking down camp and to let the other Aes Sedai know Verin is here.


Tuon was dead. Gone, cast aside, forgotten. Tuon had been the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She was now just a notation in the histories.

Fortuona was empress.

She kisses the forehead of the soldier before her, one of five, and speaks the ritual words for Bloodknives (“May your death bring victory. May your knife draw blood. May your children sing your praises until the final dawn”). Each of the five wear a ter’angreal ring that, once activated by the wearer’s blood, grants them strength, speed, and stealth, though the price is that the ring gradually and irreversibly drains the bearer’s life away.

These five would not return. They would stay behind, whatever the results of the raid, to kill as many marath’damane as they could. It was a terrible waste—those damane should be leashed—but better to kill them than leave them in the hands of the Dragon Reborn.

They are surrounded by two hundred troops of the Fists of Heaven as well as fifty pairs of sul’dam and damane, waiting to mount the to’raken and raken for the flight to Tar Valon, which will take several days. General Yulan, who is leading the attack personally, comes forward and bows, telling her that they will not fail her. Selucia replies that the empress saw an omen that morning which guarantees their victory. Yulan salutes and starts mounting the troops. Fortuona thinks to herself that using damane on to’raken in this manner, attacking from the air, had never been done before, and it would be either a brilliant new tactic or a disaster. She murmurs to Selucia that General Galgan was wrong.

“This will not give the Dragon Reborn a worse bargaining position. It will turn him against us.”

“And was he not against us before?” Selucia asked.

“No,” Fortuona said. “We were against him.”

“And there is a difference?”

“Yes,” Fortuona said, watching the cloud of to’raken, just barely visible in the sky. “There is. I fear we shall soon see just how big a difference that is.”

Tuon, if that’s what you think — and you’re right to think it — then why the hell are you doing it?

Don’t answer that, I know. One of the many, many things that makes war so insane an enterprise is the way that it can make truly horrible ideas seem like good ones, or at least like inevitable ones. So yes, let’s make absolutely sure to secure the personal enmity of the most powerful channeler alive, who is also the de facto ruler of half the continent and is, oh yeah, a total bloody loonball by all appearances. That’s a FABULOUS idea!


That aside, I remember the preparations here gave me the willies, even what with being perfectly sure that the Tower would win. Especially the business with the Bloodknives, because that’s the kind of thing that can do ten times the amount of damage than a frontal assault. At least you can see the latter coming.

I do have a bit of a question about this whole Bloodknives business, though. Because while I have no trouble believing the Seanchan would employ the use of kamikaze assassins – they are just that classy with their regard for human life that way – I was a bit thrown by the use of ter’angreals to create them. I can’t recall, for one thing, that we’ve ever seen the Seanchan use ter’angreals. Well, other than the a’dam, of course; I mean that as far as I know we’ve never seen the Seanchan use them in non-damane-related contexts. And while this doesn’t preclude the possibility that they do, of course, it just seems a little odd to me, given their overall attitudes about the One Power.

*shrug* Maybe kamikaze assassins are the sole exception. Or they use ter’angreals other than a’dam all the time and I just forgot.

Also, I’ve just noticed that even though Tuon is dead and all and there is only Zuul Fortuona now, I’m still referring to her as “Tuon” mentally, a thing which is unlikely to stop. I also can’t decide whether changing Mat’s wife’s name to “Fortuona” is awesomely clever, or the worst pun in this entire series (and that’s including Min’s “toh/toe” joke in WH). I kind of think it’s both.

I did appreciate the fast one Team Jordan pulled with the chapter title, because I remember when I first got the book, I opened it to the Table of Contents and skimmed down the titles, and I got an actual jolt of “Holy shit” when I saw this one. So that was a very clever bit of misdirection, there.

But enough about Tuon, let’s talk about Verin!

This is, without question, the best Mat scene in the book. I love that Mat instantly twigs to how Verin’s dippiness is a front – something I don’t know that anyone else has ever really sussed out, with the possible exception of Cadsuane. Sure, many people have suspected, generally after long association with her, and she has straight-up dropped the act with some people (Moiraine and Siuan in TGH, for example), but it’s just great that Mat basically takes one look at her and calls it. Heh. Can’t con a con man.

I love even more that Verin knew he knew, and didn’t care. It’s really too bad they’ll never get another chance to interact again after this, because I really liked seeing them together.

Ah, Verin. Her Sneakiness is awesomely sneaky, as always. I’ve really missed her sneakiness.

Though of course I’m having some difficulties, in this chapter, determining exactly how far her sneakiness is extending. Obviously she is being sneaky about the letter to Mat (which we’ll get to in a minute), but I honestly can’t decide whether I think that her spiel of “your ta’veren yanked me across half a continent!” is true (or at least true-ish), or a brazen lie from start to finish.

I would really like to know if someone ever asked Brandon about this, and if so what (if anything) he answered, because even before I learned for sure that Verin was Black Ajah and therefore could lie with impunity, this whole tale she tells Mat here seemed very hinky to me. I know that ta’veren works via coincidence and chance and etc., just as Verin says, but even so, this seemed awfully… precise.

Or something. I’m not really sure what word I’m looking for to describe it, but the whole thing smacked just a little too much of intense long-term planning for an extremely specific result, and my impression of the Superboys’ ta’veren nature is that it’s much more about seizing the opportunity to knock over just the right domino once it happens to appear. Less Xanatos Gambit and more Indy Ploy, if that makes sense. (Do NOT click on those links if you have any work that needs to get done in the next six hours. Seriously.)

And now that I’ve totally anthropomorphized the hell out of ta’veren-ness, I will come back to my point, which is that I’m fairly positive in retrospect that Verin’s story is a lie. Not solely because I suspect that ta’veren simply doesn’t work that way (at least not on anyone but the Superboys themselves), but also because it just doesn’t fit with what we now know Verin was doing, which was putting the last finishing touches on her Seventy Year Plan (of Awesome).

Because, okay. Obviously the entire point of the exercise was to get Mat and his army to Caemlyn in time to them to be there to help protect the city from the imminent Trolloc attack we finally learn about at the end of ToM, and also obviously the shenanigans with the letter was because Verin’s Black Ajah Oaths prevented her from revealing any Evil Plans until after she was either dead or could unswear herself on the Oath Rod. That’s some serious planning and execution on Verin’s part, and Mat’s letter was clearly not the only one she had to deliver, so she obviously has even more elaborate plans we don’t know about yet (besides the main one, of course). So I really just can’t see how that squares with her contention that she’s spent X amount of time being helplessly dragged all over the continent after Mat.

Or, I’m totally overthinking this, and wrong. ‘Tis a definite possibility! But since I rather enjoy the idea of Verin telling such an outrageous and baldfaced lie to our metaphorical faces right before we learn about her true nature for a retroactive “Hah!” reaction, I’m sticking with that interpretation until I learn different.

One thing this chapter didn’t have which I would really have liked to have seen is Thom’s and Talmanes’s (and Mandevwin’s) reactions to what Verin says about Mat – both about how powerfully ta’veren he is (my doubts about the rest of Verin’s story aside, I’m pretty sure that part wasn’t a lie), and also about the news that the Forsaken are very specifically after him. I mean, Thom pretty much knew all that already, and Talmanes must have at least had an inkling of it, but there’s a difference between suspecting something like that, and having it stated flat out.

*shrug* It’s a thing with me. It wasn’t necessary to the scene, which may be why it isn’t in there, but I just always want to see it when other characters learn something new about Our Heroes; I like to see or at least get a hint of how that changes their perspectives. It is one of my favorite things in fiction.

Well, you can’t have everything – where would you put it? So Happy Carnival to me, and happy random week in February to most of you, and I’ll see you next time!

Sam Mickel
1. Samadai
Not sure I cared for her new name when I first read it, but ut has grown on me. Good chapter.

Idon't think that Verins story was necesarily a lie. She describes exactly what both Perrin and Mat describe as the feeling of need that Rand has for them.
Anthony Pero
2. anthonypero
From now on, all links to TTTSNBN should come with a consumer safety warning: read at your own risk.
Kristoff Bergenholm
3. Magentawolf
And not even one mention of 'saidared it' in the commentary? I was expecting some epic teeth-gnashing here!
Anthony Pero
4. anthonypero
I agree with you, Leigh. Verin is lying here. There is no way she was not in control of her own destiny the last six weeks of her life.

This particular section (along with a later one in ToM) is why I'm so disapointed that building a proper timeline for each thread in these two books is exponentially more difficult than in the rest of the series. I'd really like to know how various plotlines match up to the day, like we can do in the rest of the series.
Gabor Kecskemeti
5. gkecskem
There is a very simple reason Verin was not lying about how she got there: Noone, as in really NOBODY knows where Mat (or Perrin for that matter) is at this point. The Forsaken/Darkfriends obviously don't know (or they'd not be posting wanted ads) and Mat was pretty much completely out of touch with Light side since the Seanchan attack on Ebou Dar. And most don't even know that he was there.
Anthony Pero
6. anthonypero
If Verin knew Mat was in Ebu Dar (which wouldn't be that hard to suss out) and knew where the Band was located (also not hard to suss out) it would have been easy to figure out which direction he was traveling, and that he would have had to cross that particular pass. Circulating the letters just made sure Mat would find her if she didn't find him first.
Nadine L.
7. travyl
I'm not sure if Verin lied, but if so, how did she find Mat? That's why I'm inclined to believe her. Talmanes was drawn to go to Mat, but else nobody knew where to find Mat, not even the Darkfriends - so how would Verin know?

Leigh I disagree with you about the Seanchan and ter'angeral. I think their issue is with the channelers (whom they fear could gain to much power). They are perfectly willing to use the One Power (in form of damane) - so why not other ter'angreal, which do not require channeling?
8. Paulie
I love reading about Verin and I'm pretty sure a lot of what she said was Aes Sedai sneaky talk...even though she can lie if she wanted to. I also dig the fact that Mat twigged to her "ditzy" front. For all of Verin's awesomeness, she did misread Mat and his desire to not be tied to Aes Sedai. She thought he would open the letter long before Olver actually saw what was in it...
I really don't like Tuon's new name and I will continue to ignore it and use Tuon in my head when I read. Just like I do with Leilwin Shipless (or whatever her name is now).
Sylvia Borowicz
9. Plaryn
Don't forget about the Crystal Throne. Although, it is doubtful if any Seanchan really know that it is a ter'angreal.
10. Paulie
Oh...about Verin being stuck in a spot or being drawn to Mat...I compare it to something Perrin says in ToM. After he saves the Whitecloaks and destroys the Trollocs, he says that everything happened because he needed it to happen.
Nadine L.
11. travyl
Ok it took me 5' to post because @5. wasn't there when I posted my opinion. But AP: Even if Verin could have guessed Mat's possible route of traveling, there is no way to know when he would pass there. We even know she spent some consideralbe time in Trustair waiting, because in Hinderstrap (or later?) they knew the one who was searching for them would be there. So if she just went to him, why not go near Hinderstap?
12. Lsana
Random thoughts on the chapter:

I liked Tuon, at least mostly. I don't think I like Fortuona.

We know that the Seanchan have at least one other ter'angreal besides the a'dam: the Crystal Throne. Actually, it doesn't surprise me much, given that we know that they never lost the making of ter'angreal, and also that they're more than willing to use the OP in ways that Randlanders won't. If anything, I'm surprised that we haven't seen more ter'angreal from them.

I think Verin's story of being dragged around via ta'veren has some truth to it. I suspect that's how she was able to find Mat. However, I think she was looking for him specifically rather than just random forces sending her there when she was trying to get to Tar Valon.

Verin's letter...argh! I understand why she needed to be sneaky and couldn't just tell Mat what was in the letter, but why couldn't she have said, "Okay, open the letter after 10 days and do whatever seems best to you"? Why couldn't she have trusted Mat's honor rather than his curiousity? Verin, I love you, but you were Aes Sedai to the end, and that isn't a compliment.
Lisamarie LiGreci-Newton
13. Lisamarie
I haven't read the post yet ,but I have to comment on this:

Sort of like how my one and a half-year-old nephew wants his lunch now, now, right now, and doesn’t understand that food doesn’t just appear like magic, it has to be chopped and peeled and mixed and heated and generally prepared before he can have it, otherwise he’s not going to like it very much. The difference between the two situations is, my nephew is a toddler whose brain is not yet developed enough to fully grasp things like this; I’m really not sure what the former group’s excuse is."

OMG I love this SO MUCH! When I heard the release date I thought, "Oh, that's too bad - but I'm glad they are taking their time on it!". I was also glad it was still going to be the Year of the Dragon :)

It's not like a book is some mass produced assembly line thing (well, the physical book is, but you know what I mean ) - it has to be crafted!
14. beRealistic
Fans should just be glad the series is even being finished. The effort that is taking place to give this storyline its capstone is unprecedented.
Anthony Pero
15. anthonypero
11. travyl

Verin can Travel. She could stop in to that Inn every day, keep a room, and still go where ever she chose to, waiting for Mat to show up.
Birgit F
16. birgit
Brandon said that the Seanchan don't know how to make non-a'dam ter'angreal, but they are using the Crystal Throne and the Bloodknife rings. There is no explanation where they come from.
Anthony Pero
17. anthonypero
They come from the same place all the ones from the Tower and the Stone came from, and the ones in Rheuidan. During the Breaking, a bunch of Aes Sedai were tasked with protecting them. I have no doubt that the Crystal Throne actually is the Tamyrlin Seat from the AoL.
18. azuarc
One of the many, many things that makes war so insane an enterprise is the way that it can make truly horrible ideas seem like good ones, or at least like inevitable ones. So yes, let’s make absolutely sure to secure the personal enmity of the most powerful channeler alive, who is also the de facto ruler of half the continent and is, oh yeah, a total bloody loonball by all appearances. That’s a FABULOUS idea!
I always consider the event on par with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The Axis was doing a mighty fine job of things until they got the Americans involved, but they somehow saw it as necessary and made the pre-emptive strike. It may have helped Japan in the short run, but ultimately it incurred the wrath of an enemy that was their undoing. The fact that the Japanese and the Seanchan are both "island hopping" makes the parallel even more interesting.
Ty Margheim
19. alSeen
I think it should be one week later. It would be great for the first and last books to have been released on the same dates.
20. zackattack
I can't stand Fortuona. I find the name itself stupid, partly because of the pun, partly because I just think it's a stupid name. I mostly dislike her for replacing/killing Tuon. (I don't think the Chapter Title is that much of a misdirection.) I liked Tuon. She was pretty cool (for a Seanchan). Fortuona on the other hand sucks. I hate everything she does, starting here, and continuing into the next book with her over-the-top pronunciations of doom for the White Tower. I am holding out some small hope that she will be less unlikable in AMOL. Or maybe the next time we see her she’ll be sitting on the Amyrlin Seat, twirling her mustache and cackling manically. (Usual tvtropes disclaimers.) Speaking of AMOL, let’s all be grateful that we will have the opportunity to read it at all. The series could have ended when RJ passed away. I support Team Jordan taking however much time they need to make sure it’s as good as it can be.

Side note: ‘Saidared it’ line is one of my favorite Mat lines in the series. No idea why. It just makes me smile.
Martyna Berek
21. missbee
anthonypero @ 4 This is the chapter that made me start on a timeline, it took forever, and as far as pinning down Verin's whereabouts was completely useless. If you do wish to compare notes, there is a link at the top of the timeline thread over in Theoryland.

I analysed this chapter to death, looking at Verin's every word, the way she phrased things, the pauses, what she didn't say...
Only to finally remember that she can lie. Meh
Still, Verin being sneaky, I get the impression that she would much prefer to sneakily twist her words about rather than utter a complete lie, so maybe it wasn't such a waste of time. There are so many loopholes in what she says that there is no need for her to lie at all. IIRC, she only explicitly accounts for about 5 days of her trip, the rest is implied, who knows where she went.
I am inclined to believe that she felt Mat's pull and spent a little time studying it. Sounds just like the sort of thing she'd do.

I continue to use Tuon instead of Fortuona too
22. Paulie
Can someone please point me in the direction of where I can read about the Crystal Throne being a ter'angreal? I think I remember some discussion about it...but am drawing an absolute blank at the moment.
Martyna Berek
23. missbee
Paulie @ 22
I can only suggest Terez's most excellent database search at TL. Can't for the life of me remember where else it featured.

I too love the fact that both Mat and Thom seem to twig the fact that Verin is playing them.
I really, really want to know what happened between Verin and Joline & Co. Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seemed to me that Brandon made a point of emphasising the fact that they meet.
And, despite the fact that I never gamble, I am willing to bet that Mat thinking he can “do himself up so that even his sisters wouldn't recognise him” is a foreshadowing.
24. Wortmauer
So, it continues to bother me that there are two competing definitions of ter'angreal, the official one and the one everyone assumes. According to the glossaries, they are any artifact that uses the One Power in some way. But unofficially, everyone assumes they are any artifact that produces any supernatural effect, whether by use of the One Power or not. Which would of course include, in Clarke's words, any sufficiently advanced technology.

I don't see much reason to believe the bloodknife rings are actually ter'angreal according to the glossary definition. Or in fact that the Seanchan would know whether they are or not. Unless they've done experiments in which a damane watches someone bleed onto a ring, to see whether saidar weaves suddenly form around it ... but that doesn't strike me as something they would bother with. Instead I imagine they would just call anything a ter'angreal if it violates any known laws of nature. Just like mainlanders do with, e.g., the redstone portals to Finnland.

(Speaking of Finnland, the bloodknife effect of leaching out your life force over time seems a lot more like what the Eelfinn and Aelfinn would do than what the One Power would do. I make the distinction because, while they seem somewhat fascinated by the One Power, they don't seem to use it themselves.)

The problem with these two competing definitions occurs if people accept them as equivalent, thus assuming that there is only one means of supernatural power in Randland. This may seem like a relatively harmless thing to believe, but it's the sort of misunderstanding that has greatly inconvenienced people like Elyas.

Tuon's new name: surely Team Jordan is setting up a scene in the last book where a big group of people, trying to get her attention, break out into a chorus of "O Fortuona."
Chris Chaplain
25. chaplainchris1
Great commentary as always Leigh! I've been reading faithfully, though in the past couple of months I've had very little comment time. I'll say several things here, but the main reason I'm poking my head above ground is re: your comments on the release dates, and many people's childish reactions to it. For your comments, thank you, and BRAVO BRAVO ENCORE BRAVO. (Though hopefully the encore won't be needed.)

I lacked the time to speak out that day, but I did read a number of the comments until it got too depressing. The vitriolic reactions from some really dismayed me, honestly. Team Jordan has gone through truly heroic efforts to get us these books despite the tragic death of Robert Jordan. I still feel awed and grateful, and very touched, by their sacrifices. Look at Harriet working through her grief, or Brandon's ridiculously intense schedule and fast, hard, good work in service to another's vision rather than his own. Brandon's been keeping up an astonishing workload, and I'm sure the rest of Team Jordan and Tor will be doing the same to get the book to us by January.

On other points: don't really care for Fortuona's name, but Tuon is still the natural nickname (unless you care for "Fort" - ick), so whatevs.

On sneaky Verin, I'm afraid her sneakiness tripped her up with Mat. The only justification is that, as Leigh reminded me, she's still precluded at this point from being straight with him. So she tries a sneaky plan that won't break her oaths...and I'm not sure how she manages it, actually. I mean, she's sworn not to reveal the Shadow's secrets until the hour of her death - which means she could only write Mat's letter in the hour of her death, or unless absolutely convinced he wouldn't read it until that time. That must mean she trusts his word...yet, she apparently counted on his curiousity winning out over his word? In that case, I don't really understand how her oaths allowed her to give him the letter at all.

Agreed that it's cool that Mat's grown to the point where he now twigs to her sneaky ways, and that she knows it, and is unphased by it.

Disagree about the ta'veren thing. I suspect Verin's being truthful here, and that when she realized either Perrin or Mat was yanking her chain (yok yok), she wrote letters to both of them, planning for whichever of them it was to be sent to Caemlyn to help out there.

Whatever the case, I do think Verin might have mentioned the invasion of Caemlyn to Egwene, to pass on warning to Elayne. It would've been interesting, too, for us to get word of the invasion in TGS, but the message to somehow go awry (as Mat's did), leaving us tense with worry all through TOM.

And I hadn't thought about it, Leigh, but it would be interesting to see Talmanes and (to me) especially Thom's reactions to Verin. Would he be canny enough to see through her facade?

Oh well. Definitely still a cool scene between our two sneaks.
I'm of the opinion that Verin wasn't lying here. Granted she is a sneaky one. And granted 6 weeks is a long time. But my feeling here is she's had no reason to lie here. And how else was she to track Mat as she did, when no one else seems to know where he is with the exception of maybe Rand and Perrin. I'm thinking, however we want to believe some other motive brought Verin into Mats presence, we can't just dismiss the influenc of an exceptionaly powerful Ta'veren.

The pattern needed Mat in Camelyn as we all know to protect the city. But also Mat wants to be there because he can start procuring materials for his Dragons. We also know that had he not gone to Caemlyn things would not have fallen in such a way for him to be nudged into saving Moraine.

It's not like the Wheel hasn't weaved crazier scenarios. How many channelers came out of one town? And what are the chances that one person could be reborn as prohecied about and be able to fulfill every one of the 30 or whatever the number is, propheci however obscure or misunderstood? Have THREE of the most powerful ta'veren in memory all from the same town. Just think about this for a second. If Fain is going to be involved in the re-closing of the bore, how then would that have happened if Mat had not picked up that stupid dagger? How would that have happened? Seeing as Rand destroyed Shadar Logoth cleansing the Taint, there would be no Mordeith to inhabit Fains body, right?

Think about all of the chance happenings. That if they did not happen such and such could not have happened. So what gives with not believing this? Because its Verin and she's a White-Lighter surviving death as Black Ajah, but secretly collecting information on the inner workings of the Dark Ones minions and even burning all of their covers with the most glorious timing ever, sacrificing her life in the process?

So she's a liar. So are all of the Aes Sedai. The difference is The Aes Sedai imply around a lie. The art is called subduction. It can be used on a person or a known fact or even an ideal. Its what Reublicans have been using to great effect ever since Newt became Speaker of the House. It works. As long as people aren't willing (or are to lazy) to corroberate the statements of the deciever, themselves. its a complicated process. I like to call it "Deception Relations".

Its all about deception. Moraine did it. Cadsuane did it. Nynaeve. Egwene. Elayne.... all of the Aes Sedai. If you get right down to it, the only People not trying to deceive anyone at all is Rand and Min. Perrin too, but you can talk Perrin into it though. Mat? Well he is a walking talking imbodiment of the word Deception. Even his tactics involve deception. The first real time we see Rand use deception to any real degree is during the Imma Kill Graendal thread.

Which is why he wasn't fooled by her play. But he knows his ta'veren nature. Mat knows his better than Rand knows his own. Perrin doesn't even acknowledge it at all. He just does what he does, because to him it doesn't matter if he's ta'veren. Perrin is just going to do what needs to be done and thats that.

Anyway...I'm starting to ramble on now....

James Hogan
27. Sonofthunder
Ah yes. Good post, Leigh!

And oh I love Verin! I do like how Mat so easily is able to see through here. Obviously, she doesn't care, but she's having fun with him all the same. I wouldn't doubt that she was affected by his pull(enough to find out where he is)...but I still think most of her story is just that. A story. She's playing it to the hilt.

What I find odd is the fact that she initially offered Mat 50 days until he could open the letter. She had to know the attack would come before then. I know she was confident he wouldn't be able to resist opening it, but seriously, Verin? That's a pretty big gamble to take.

Anyways, yes. Verin is awesome. Mat is even more awesome. And the two of them together in the same chapter? Good times.
Chris Chaplain
28. chaplainchris1
@6 Anthony Pero - just ask the Seanchan in Altara about how "not hard" it is to suss out the movements of the Band! There are DFs aplenty in Altara who could tell Verin Mat was in Ebou Dar...but his movements after that are deliberately obscure.

In any case, up until recently, trailing the Band wouldn't lead you to Mat anyway, since he'd separated from them for ages.
29. Paulie
Was reading on Theoryland and found the following about the Crystal Throne being the Tamyrlin Seat:

Interview: Dec 19th, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: THIS AND THAT (Verbatim)
Robert Jordan
For someone—Marigan, I think, but my notes are a little wonky right about here—the Crystal Throne is not the High seat of the Tamyrlin, none of the Forsaken were among the Nine Rods of Dominion, and the "Rods" were symbols of office.

Mil Tesen was really just a peddler who happened to be in the right place to pass on news of Morgase's supposed death to Gawyn. Not everyone is somebody other than who they seem, you know.

And finally, Da'concion means "the Chosen Ones" in the Old Tongue, which is used with more frequency among the Seanchan than among inhabitants of the eastern side of the Aryth Ocean.

forsaken, seanchan, nine rods of dominion, gawyn, crystal throne, old tongue, .
30. joeyesq
@ 22 Paulie - Its stated that the Crystal Throne is Ter'angreal in the Big Book of Bad Art
31. elliesaurus
The "saidared" line made me facepalm. I'm pretty sure non-channelers don't even know the names of the two halves of the Power. Non-channelers have always referred to Aes Sedai as "female channelers" and men as "male channelers" or just as people who "channel the Power". The actual mechanics of using the Power, i.e. flows, weaves, saidar/saidin, and the names of the Five Powers aren't known to anyone who can't channel themselves...
32. username
I see no problem with the Seanchan using Ter'angreal. Since they basically see channelers themselves as nothing more than tools, I find using actual tools of the power to be entirely consistent with their horrific worldview.
Anthony Pero
33. anthonypero
RJ has contradicted himself in interviews before, but since he's not really going to be able to this time, I guess the Crystal Throne isn't the Tamyrlin Seat. Its still a ter'angreal according to the BBoBA. My suspicion is that at one point, RJ had plans to actually take Rand to Seanchan. It would have been awesome if somehow being by the Crystal Throne (if it was the Tamyrlin Seat) caused Rand's reintegration.
Martyna Berek
34. missbee
She says she then tried to travel by more mundane means, and then by Skimming, but every time she and Tomas found themselves traveling south instead of north, and are now here just when Mat needs someone he trusts who can transport him to Caemlyn quickly.

I'm unable to check at the moment, but IIRC Verin only ever talks of of going north from Tear, and of being diverted north west.
I don't think south ever comes into it. Right?

And a quick question to other UK residents - is anyone else having problems flipping pancakes whilst refreshing the comments page?
I've made a right mess here...
Anthony Pero
35. anthonypero
31. elliesaurus

Mat hardly qualifies as an everyday Randlander. He's been constantly around Aes Sedai for 3 years. In the Tower, in Salidar, traveling with them through Ebou Dar and everywhere else. He's beena round women learning to channel, women studying him and his ter'angreal. He's traveled with women he grew up with who can channel. On top of that, he has 1000 years worth of memories in which he could have heard the term. Its hardly impossible, or even improbable, that Mat would have heard the terms sai'dar and sai'din in all that time. In fact, the opposite is true.
36. LoghainsBrother
I didn't notice it before, but the re-read hit me now:
How does Mat know to recognize con artists of Verin's caliber?

I mean, yeah, he's been around plenty of gambling dens, and he's a scoundrel type, and he possibly has some knowledge from his memories...

But he's not a con man himself. He's not a "professional" criminal of any kind.
For a 21 year old guy who only left his tiny home village 3 years ago, that's a really astute observation.
38. adaptr
Didn't Verin tell Egwene the exact same thing she told Mat here ? That she was drawn/pulled/pushed around until she found him ?

It would also explain why she was preparing all those letters in case she ran out of time... She's simply a good planner, and I quite understand why she would not want to meet her end without seeing her 70-year plan finished.
Cameron Tucker
39. Loialson

I believe you stated that you firmly believe that the Crystal Throne is the Tamyrlin seat? Was just digging over at Terez's shiny new database and found this quote I thought you'd find interesting regarding that:
"Interview: Dec 19th, 2005Robert Jordan's Blog: THIS AND THAT (Verbatim) Robert Jordan For someone—Marigan, I think, but my notes are a little wonky right about here—the Crystal Throne is not the High seat of the Tamyrlin...."
EDIT: hah, and Paulie beat me to it, should've read the rest of the comments first :)
40. Alan99
So the big question I have for Leigh: Are you going to tailor the re-read to wrap up TOM on January 1, 2013?
TW Grace
41. TWGrace
You know, if there was no "Tamyrlin Seat", or "High Seat of the Tamyrlin"...

In other words, if the High Seat is not connected to Tamylrin, who had a ring, if it is a seperate thing entirely, then RJ's answer does not preclude the Chrystal Throne from being the "High Seat" that Lews Therrin sat in...
Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you!"
42. elliesaurus

It just seems to me to be a little incongruous. I can't recall anywhere else in the series where a non-channeler refers to the separate halves of the Power by name, or even where channelers refer to the separate halves outside of the Supergirls'/Rand's first few lessons or their own internal monologues, let alone in front of non-channelers. Perrin nonchalantly brushing off dream!balefire as "just a weave" in ToM is another example. It comes across to me as a little meta.

But maybe I'm coming across as a nitpicker. :) I love Sneaky Sneaky Verin and enjoy her deviousness in this chapter. Before she sees Mat here, when was the last time she had seen him? Was it allll the way back in The Great Hunt?
Sam Mickel
43. Samadai
Verin last saw Mat when she helped heal him from the dagger in the Dragon Reborn.
Juan Avila
44. Cumadrin
The Ring of Tamyrlin, not the 'Tamyrlin Seat,' was an object of the One Power created by the first person who learned to channel. This was in the expanded glossary of 'To The Blight,' the second half of tEotW when it was split into two books. As far as I know, the only places the word Tamyrlin is even mentioned is in the Guide, the prologue Dragonmount, and the glossary entry I mentioned.

A chair or throne is never mentioned as directly related to the ring. Where did that idea even come from? Sorry, this little contention just bugged the hell out of me, I had to put forth all the facts and give everyone a 'Wha?" look.

Since TWGrace quoted Dragonmount @41, I'll simply say that I always assumed all the items mentioned in that passage were symbols of Lews Therin's office as first amog the Servants (Aes Sedai).

And the Crystal Throne, being a ter'angreal that inspires awe, never struck me as something the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends would use.

Hey look, a bona fide contributing comment! I probably just jinxed myself. Le sigh.
45. elliesaurus
Help! Now I'm trapped on the Wheel of Time TvTropes page and I can't get free!
Valentin M
46. ValMar
AP @ 4

I hope that in the Encyclopedia (or whatever they call it) which is going to be published after AMOL they put in the timeline of the last three books.
It will be a great gesture to the fans.

@ 17 re the Crystal Throne. As usual folks here already provided the facts on this issue. I just like to add that it doesn't feel right it to have been the Tamyrlin Seat. That society seems to have been too egaletarian for this.
Ah, and in the mean time Cumadrin beat me to it :)

missbee @ 34
I am a UK resident and have no clue what are you on about, or am I missing something obvious?
Alice Arneson
47. Wetlandernw
A couple of clarifications:

As far as I can tell, no one has asked Brandon whether/how much of Verin's story was pure fabrication. Loialson, there's one for you.

The letter: Brandon made it clear that in the matter of Mat opening it, Verin misjudged him. She needed to extract certain promises from him to make it possible to even give it to him, but she expected him to open it anyway. (IMO, she tried to get him to agree to 50 days without reading it, on the assumption that if he and the Band were there when the Trolloc invasion came, they'd step in to help; OTOH, if he read the letter right away like she expected, he'd not only warn Elayne but would keep the Band there to help. Either way, he'd be there with his ta'veren influence. She just didn't think he'd actually NOT open the letter.)

Seanchan ter'angreal: Both RJ and BWS have stated unambiguously that the Seanchan only MAKE one kind of ter'angreal. The (deliberately, IMO) unstated implication is that, while both the Crystal Throne and the Bloodknife rings are ter'angreal, the Seanchan do not know how to make them. This obviously begs the question of where they came from. It seems logically obvious that the Throne is a remnant from the AOL, but what about the rings? It doesn't seem likely that they could be left from the AOL, but we also know the Seanchan don't make them. My guess is that Ishamael left a stash previously, and perhaps Semirhage added to it. They seem to have been around for a while, but while they are used sparingly, they have to be lost sometimes.

Once again, sorry about the failure to use appropriate italics. Silly iPad. More later...
Martyna Berek
48. missbee
ValMar @46
It's Shrove Tuesday, or Fat Tuesday, or pancake day...
I've been roped in and I'm not very good at, er, flipping.
49. Blood_Drunk
@ 18.azuarc
You beat me to it! Before the Japanese attack on pearl harbor they made pretenses at peace just like what happened a few chapters ago. Then here Tuon’s speech is oddly reminiscent of the famous lines uttered by the Japanese admiral after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Admiral Yamamoto was purported to have said, “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” Tuon sees this already and I have the feeling that Rand is left with no choice but to force peace and it will be Mat’s timely appearance that will prevent all out war.
50. dcmarkjr
Nicely done. Liegh, the insight you have given makes the books more understandable. Of all the characters in the books I love Rand the most. The others are all supporting cast. It's Rand who determines the final solution to the end of this cycle!
Brandon you're awsome!
Valentin M
51. ValMar
missbee @ 48

I see. You should've said "English people" as opposed to UK Residents. Been living here for about 12 years but this thing seems rather obscure... I do recall some pancake flipping races. That's it probably.
Anthony Pero
52. anthonypero
I think the thought of a Tamyrlin Seat comes from a combination of Ishamael's mention of a High Seat, and the Amyrlin Seat being both the Seat and the Person. The assumption being that since there was a High Seat and a Tamyrlin in the Aol, and there is a Seat and an Amyrlin, that there must have been a Tamyrlin Seat, or at least there was a strong probablity of said seat existing.
Dawn Boyall
53. deebee
Missbee @34 and 48, Valmar @46

Isn`t it Shrove Tuesday everywhere?? (Except where it`s also Mardi Gras, which sounds like much more fun than simply pancakes...)

Missbee, I know what you mean. You know you have a problem when you turn the heat up instead of refreshing.
reminds me of the time I pointed my mobile at the TV...
Who was it said women are good at multi-tasking?
Dawn Boyall
55. deebee
@54 Finished?

Elliesaurus@31 I loved "saidared"-witty and irreverent, seems great to me.
56. Caveatar
@54 Stunnedatthenerve
Gee Stunned. If you have something to say just come right out and say it. No need to hold back.

And here I thought I had missed an opportunity for the "Holy Headdesk Ritual"
Thank you.
(Headdesk, Headdesk and a couple of "Facepalms".
Ah. My holy rituals are now complete.

57. Caveatar
36. LoghainsBrother

"...How does Mat know to recognize con artists of Verin's caliber?"

Well you know Mat has all those memories of war and maybe he is an expert in weapons of all kinds.
From the descriptions of Verin I would judge her caliber to be at least .44 and more likely .50 or some much larger size. JK
Mat is also the "Trickster" and even Berelain recognized a similar soul in Mat. She is a "Trickster" as well and a very good con artist on her own. I think Mat recognizes traits which he himself has.

Jay Dauro
58. J.Dauro
chaplinchris @25

Good to see you again. I do not believe Verin thought that Mat's curiosity would "win out over his word?"

Here is what Mat promised:
“Thirty days,” Mat said reluctantly, taking her hand, “but at the end of them, I can go.”
“Or you can open the letter after ten days,” Verin said, “and do what it says. One of the two, Matrim. I have your word?”
“You do,” he said. “But I’m not going to open the bloody letter. I’m going to wait thirty days, then be off on my business.”
The Gathering Storm (pp. 558). Tor Kindle Edition.

Mat gave his word that if he opened it, he would do what it said, otherwise he would wait thirty days in Caemlyn. And that he would not open it until after 10 days.

Verin thought he would not be able to resist opening it. Mat said he would not open it, but he did not give his word not to open it. Fine Distinction.

This is the beginning of another lack of communication in WOT. Verin could have said, "If I am not back in 10 days, open the letter and do what you think is best." I believe she could trust Mat to defend the city.

Verin could have mentioned it to Egwene, after drinking the poison.

Elayne could have mentioned to Mat that a darkfriend said an invasion of Caemlyn was coming, after she was stabbed. Mat knows about the Waygate, and he might have put the pieces together (with his military knowledge.) But Elayne decided not to tell Mat anything about what she discovered.

But hey, then it wouldn't be WOT.
Anthony Pero
59. anthonypero
The Mat Verin knows is the scoundrel from tGH, trying his best to avoid responsibility.
Anthony Pero
60. anthonypero
Oh, and to the ridiculous poster above. If Leigh gets paid, it's by the word. So she did a little less this week and got paid a little less. Big whoop. Tell me you've never cut out early from work before. If you say yes, then I'll know you're sixteen and working your first job.
Dawn Boyall
61. deebee
Good point-we see Mat thinking about the Verin he knows-0r has to struggle to remember. That should be our cue to think about the Mat Verin remembers...
Alice Arneson
62. Wetlandernw
Caveatar @56 - LOL!! Well done, my friend. :)
Kimani Rogers
63. KiManiak
Thanks, Leigh. Happy Mardi Gras!

Sweet Lord above, already 60+ comments?!!?!! In just a few hours? I guess we’re still dealing with the residual charge of getting the release date for AMoL. That, and getting the last reread post to 350+. Good job, folks.

Anyway, good chapter. Sneaky Verin and her sneaky ways, and then good ole Tuon.

Verin: I admit, I took her tale at face value. Was she trying to manipulate circumstances to achieve her ultimate plan? Sure. But that doesn’t mean that all of those wacky things didn’t happen to her.

If the Pattern needs to make use of tools to have its “will” done, it couldn’t find a much better one to use than Verin. So, I could believe that Mat’s ta’veren pull (doing the will of the Pattern) snagged Verin up, and she decided to make the most of it and incorporate the situation into her plans.

Anyway, fun scene.

Tuon: I mentioned before that I was never a fan of the plan to attack the Tower since when it was first brought up. I just don’t think it was smart; it’s an agitative approach that almost demands reprisal. Based on the information they have, the strike would rile up a hornets’ nest. Why knowingly piss off the prophesied savior of the Light, even if they believe that he will bow his knee to the throne?

I think her reflection about the possible impact this could have on the Dragon Reborn is spot on, so I must echo Leigh’s question of “Why the freak would you do this?”
Martyna Berek
64. missbee
Somewhat Loony Theory Alert

It struck me when reading this chapter, how much Verin emphasised that Mat is in a different type of danger, and in a “very, very great danger”. As Mat himself points out he's no stranger to trouble or being chased. Even if Verin hasn't seen Mat in action for a long time she would have heard about his exploits and abilities. So what can this different danger be?

Then, I wandered how Verin gets away with transporting Mat if the standing DF orders are to kill him. I know she is planning her big exit, but she is taking a very big risk here. The Band hardly go unnoticed in Caemlyn and someone is bound to wander how they got there so suddenly. Physically running away wouldn't help her if some DF found out she disobeyed orders in such a spectacular fashion. Yet, there is not one mention of any attempt to keep her presence and help a secret.

I believe Verin when she explains how she found Mat and that she had no choice in the matter. But when she found him she had a problem. I'd think she could justify not attempting to kill Mat all by herself, but she knew she would have to report his location - I'm thinking something like 'Hey I couldn't get him myself, he's got this medallion you see, but I dumped him in Caemlyn so you can get at him more easily, ok?) Hence the warnings of dire danger.
That gholam does find the band awfully quickly once they're in Caemlyn. Noal even comments on it.

deebee @ 53
Yeah, Mardi Gras would be better, definitely.
How do you get pancake out of keyboards?
Er, sorry, I'll shut up about pancakes now (it's just that greasy keys with lumps are very distracting... yuck)
65. Shadow_Jak
OK. I gotta admit, I'm very disappointed about the publication date.
I was really, really hoping to finish the series well before Dec 21, 2012...
You know, just in case.

I'll tell you all right here and now.
I'm gonna be *REALLY PISSED* if the world ends before I finish the WOT!
Sam Mickel
66. Samadai
Who let in one of those entitled whiners? AnthonyPero, I thought we told you to close the door behind you before you came back from that TTTSNBN
67. Shadow_Jak
OK, what the Hey. I can always just finish it up on the next turning of the Wheel. ;-)
Anthony Pero
68. anthonypero
My bad. I guess, like Sorilea, I should always turn my back to the room I enter and confirm the door is closed before I turn back to face Cadsu... ER, Wetlandernw. *bunkertime*
Sam Mickel
69. Samadai

Think of it this way (depending upon your belief) If the world does end, we can all sit around RJ in heaven and hear the rest of the story ( with the exception being If you are hell bound, atheist (or ditto) :D ( I kid, I kid)
Anthony Pero
70. anthonypero

It's certainly possible. It's also possible that a thousand DF spies told someone. Or that the band itself has a few DFs. Seems unlikely that they don't.
Sam Mickel
71. Samadai
AP, hold that door for me, I have a feeling I should hide in the corner
72. Caveatar
@64 misbee
How do you get pancake out of keyboards?

I recommend putting the keyboard on an anthill for a day or two,
then putting some sugar about a foot away from the keyboard until
the ants leave the keyboard, then let the dog lick the keyboard clean
of ant tracks and sugar smears, then catch a friend, sibling or neighbor away from home and swap your keyboard for their keyboard. :D

@62 Wetlander
Thanks. I would, in Leigh's name, send Stunned a cover from
'The Absolute-By-God!-Ultimate Book of theWheel of Time'
with the title "STFU" in large friendly letters but he/she/they/it
would not appreciate it. Probably Leigh wouldn't either.

@68 Anthonypero and @71 Samadai
The Bunker needs a Butler.
It is too crowded for one to get up and fetch his/her own drink.
I had assumed THE Butler was Leigh but since she has gone off to party, (YOU GO! GIRL. PARTY DOWN!),
someone should take applications for a replacement BunkerButler(tm).

On second thought Leigh could NEVER be a gentleman's gentleman.
Heaven Forfend! and Perish the Thought! and Jordan Forbid!
How could I have missed that. The very idea/suggestion would cause
such rapid headdesking that the bunker would sound like a jackhammer
tearing up a street.
If the new Butler, (bunker type), was also a Sutler, (whiskey type),
then we could have a BunkerButlerSutler of our own and never be short of either drink or service.
Then if we could just find a troop of GirlScouts selling cookies
or failing that a tree full of Keebler's Elves, well hell, we could easily
and cheerfully pass the time until AMOL is released.
I hear rumors that Wetlander is a pure terror on washing dishes. Maybe she knows some likely candidates.
Any ideas?
Sam Mickel
73. Samadai
Caveatar, You are hilarious. Thanks for the laughs
Roger Powell
74. forkroot
Once again there will be some interesting action "off-screen" as we are not shown the actual transport of Mat and Co. to Caemlyn. Strange - Verin makes a gateway, yet none of the three AS with Mat learn how? (Remember, they had to use horses to go to the WT from Andor.)

Considering how useful Traveling is, I'm sure all three would have been very interested - thus they would have to have been prevented from watching and Verin would have to invert her weaves (presumably she learned how from Cadsuane during their time together.)

What was Verin's motive for not teaching them?

Best I can come up with is that two of the three (Joline and Teslyn) were nominally aligned with Elaida, and Edesina was chummy with them.

Alternatively, one or more of them were in Verin's book of Black Ajah - it would have been interesting how Verin would have rationalized not showing them the weave.

Anyone else care to speculate?
John Massey
75. subwoofer
Verin's motives for not teaching the other Aes Sedai... Verin does not know what side they are on. IIRC Verin was on Egwene's and the SAS side so if these ladies are headed back to Tar Valon Verin does not want the secret of Traveling to go with them.

Jeremy Vanneman
76. Jeribai
@75 Actually, Verin was unsided with her dealings with the split. Clearly she was more for Egwene in the end, but she never declared for one side or the other. She was in the Two Rivers, brought the girls to Caemlyn, then caught up with Cads until she left to see Mat.

@36 I'm pretty sure it's the same way he was able to tell Chel Vanin wasn't actually a horse trader. He may not be a professional criminal, but he very intimately knows their type. And although he's not a "criminal" (excluding murder, kidnapping, etc), he is a very good conman (just recently covered in Hinderstrap (sp?).

@64 I like it ... definitely something to consider.

Now for my response to the original post:
Am I the only one slightly thrown off by Mat's comments here? I mean, they didn't bother me the first time through, but having them separated out definitely makes me cringe just a little (and I know I'm being picky). But ... the comments above about "Saidared it" ... that's a good attempt at Mat language while still definitely missing the mark.

Then there's Mat's interest in the cleansing of the taint. I mean, the language there is perfect, but knowing Mat's attitude and knowledge of the male half of the One Power. I'm surprised he even knew what the taint was, let alone that it meant men would no longer go mad who channeled it.

Finally there was, "And proud of it." I'm sorry, but that's still not quite Mat to me. Rand earlier on ... Perrin possibly ... maybe any other male (or female) from the Two Rivers, would say that. Mat on the other hand, would give her his best smile and make a witty comment like "How could I ever be difficult with someone as honest and pretty as you, Verin?" (I will never claim to be able to accurately write Mat either).

On to Tuon; Fortuona is way too long - ignoring that the pun or change of name is annoying in itself. I'm very curious to see how this "Tuon was dead," will play out in the end. I mean, will her interactions with Mat pick up where they left off, or is she going back to the straight-laced, aloof, PITA she originally was when first arriving on this side of the Aryth Ocean.

Oh, and on Verin ... who cares if she lied or not? If she did lie, she was likely writing and delivering messages to people around the world, and doing other sneaky Verin things. If she didn't lie, she was likely writing and delivering messages to people around the SE portion of the world (which is the main area of focus anyway), and doing other sneaky Verin things.
John Massey
77. subwoofer
Now the post...

@Leigh- drink up, if the world goes sideways NO is still below sea level so you are hooped. Incidentally, what are you giving up for Lent?

Oh snap- and shout out to Ghostbusters:) Whoot!

About the er... folks on the other thread doing the hand wringing about the end of days and the book being published then... I've been thinking about it and the point I want to make is that it is not just a case of Brandon banging out the final book, he is trying to make it as close to what RJ would want for the final chapter as possible. This means editing. And editing the editing- This is the final work folks, let us give Brandon the time to do it justice.

@Caveatar that is one way to get schtuff off a keyboard, perhaps just a wet cloth and a can of air? KISS;)

Just want to point out that twice in the recap Leigh mentions that Rand is, in essence, crazy. Verin think's Rand is over the edge and Tuon ( much easier to type 4 letters than 8) clearly things he's loony... and shortly will be pissed. Good plan there, poke a crazy bear with a short stick. Perhaps covering yourself in honey first...

.... And personally I was kinda choked that Tuon made it out alive.

Of course Verin is sneaky, she wears slippers. Why would anyone wear slippers when tromping around the world unless they wanted to be sneaky. And yay for Mat calling her on the smoke and mirrors. Shenanigans!

The letter, the dreaded letter, why oh why did you make such a wonky deal with sneaky Verin? You forgot your initial instincts- do not putz, mess with, make deals with, haggle, accept help from Aes Sedai. No good can come of this.

I'm still blow that Mat was fairly laid back when he finds out that Forsaken have taken out a bounty on his hiney. Keep it covered, sit on it, keep it secret, keep it safe.

John Massey
78. subwoofer
@76- Verin was pretty much on the TR side. She has been the other Moiraine since the beginning, after this her final act is to seek out Egwene. Doesn't get more obvious than that.

Cameron Tucker
79. Loialson
OKAY! Got some questions listed: feel free to nitpick them so I can get them into working order to ask Brandon if you feel so inclined:

Regarding Verin's last meeting with Mat: How much of her story of finding him via being Taveren tugged, was truth, and how much was fabrication?
From previous QAs it's been made clear that the a'dam are the ONLY ter'angreal Seanchan know how to make. If that premise is true, where did the Crystal Throne and bloodknife rings come from?
How did the Gholam know to find Mat and the Band in Caemlyn, and how did it get there so fast?
Was Verin involved?
Cameron Tucker
80. Loialson
Another thing...just noticed the ad banner at the top of (my) version of this page is announcing the ebook version of "From the Two Rivers".

Remember how they published the Eye of the World into two once? The only difference was a nice new shiny pro-prologue. Nice, I liked it, and I loved that I could carry the book around without getting weird looks and have a huge bulge in my bag.

But an ebook version...what's the point? (besides collector's compulsion disorder.)

I assumed the split's original purpose was to:

>Make it easier to carry
> appeal to YA audiences with new covers and smaller size
>appeal to WOT veterans with the new prologue.

Why not just release the new prologue and be done? Is there new art or something?

To me ebooks take away the issues/inconveniences of longer books (see:brick, or bug killer for a pro). And I cannot really see the point, unless there is new art covers being commissioned. Then I am all for it.

Then again, it's only a buck, and if I hadn't already purchased TEOTW ebook already, I'd consider buying both halves for 2 dollars.

Norman Short
81. Eclectic_the_Bold
I don't know how bad the comments were about the publishing date were to prompt such a harsh response from Leigh, but I will admit I was disappointed when I heard it would be next year rather than this fall for the last book. I started reading the series in 1990, I don't feel too over-entitled to want to finish the series after 22 years. I'm also a bit disappointed it wont be released in time for the Christmas buying season; I believe the book would have sold more copies if this were the case. Am I wrong to feel this way?
Jay Dauro
82. J.Dauro

Actually I believe there are some other slight differences, in the Glossary for one thing. But heck, I'll buy it just to carry on my Kindle.
83. Caveatar
@77 Subwoofer
@Caveatar that is one way to get schtuff off a keyboard, perhaps just a wet cloth and a can of air? KISS;)

Here now. I don't know you that well. And I would insist on dinner first even if I did know you that well. :D

Oh, you mean Keep It Simple Scholar (alt. Stupid).
Well sure but why do it the easy way?
(Personally I just throw the thing out and get another out of the drawer.) :D

Jeff Schweer
84. JeffS.
Eclectic_the_bold @ 81
No, you're not wrong to be disappointed but I would say that your tone has much to do with it.
It doesn't sound like you read the other thread on the release date. Your response here is calm and measured while the ones Leigh, (and I and others) commented on were spiteful and trollish in the extreme.
You aren't being rude, just making your point. It's a big difference.

I don't have much to say on todays post really. Verin is sneaky, Mat knows it, Verin knows he knows...
Fortuona is acting like an Empress inside the rigid social structure that is Seanchan society. You don't have to think, just act as expected. Pity, that's what happens when you become a symbol or an icon.
Norman Short
85. Eclectic_the_Bold
Ok, I read most of the thread in question and there's no doubt some people went over the line. I attribute it in part to the passion people have for the books though, and of course a lot of people respond the the anonymity and lack of consequences on the internet to behave badly.

But I have to say that Leigh's intro was over the line too. I registered to post after having followed the re-read for years now because of it. I felt like I was being called a whiny baby who wants his food now because I wanted to finish a series I've waited for 22 years to finish. I don't believe that was accurate.

At any rate, thanks for understanding. I'm not angry about the new date, just was disappointed. I had the year planned on when to start my re-read of the series (which I do once a year) and now it's thrown off. Not that big of a deal. At least I hadn't started the re-read yet.

I didn't have much to say about this chapter either; so it wasn't the most auspicious time to start to post, but I don't think I'd ever picked up that Mat was so astute about Verin before. Of course he didn't pick up she was Black, but it was still something new. I do keep re-reading these books because they're so rich that I keep finding new things I never noticed before.

Oh well, things are going to get worse before they get better. This book is a hard one to go through again.
Kimani Rogers
86. KiManiak
Elliesaurus and AnthonyPero@31,@35 and others re: Mat using “saidar” – If nothing else, Tuon refers to saidar in front of Mat after she and Selucia collared the 3 Aes Sedai in Tuon’s wagon (A Short Path, KOD).

“’Try to embrace saidar,” she drawled, stern eyes steady on Joline. Her voice was quite mild in comparison to her gaze, yet plainly she expected obedience.’

Tuon may not technically be a non-channeler, but it is logical to assume that if one sul’dam refers to “saidar,” the rest would as well. Mat was around a lot of sul’dam, in addition to being exposed via his time in the Tower, with the SuperGirls, the 3 Aes Sedai, etc.

Re: Ter’angreal in Seanchan: Let me add one other possibility to the mix. We know that when Luthair Pendrag arrived on the continent, at least one Aes Sedai that already lived there could make ter’angreal, as the a’dam was created (by Deain, I think) by an ambitious Aes Sedai.

It’s possible that one of those Aes Sedai may have created the bloodknife ter’angreal as well (possibly for their human “cannon fodder”). One may have also created the Crystal throne, from which they could “rule,” for all we know. The point is, there are multiple possibilities for how the bloodknife ter’angreal and the Crystal Throne were made.

stunned@54 – Dude. Thanks for the feigned “righteous indignation” and the ensuing laughs (yes, at your expense). Congratulations on doing your part to get most of us to not take you seriously…

forkroot@74 – Thank You! I was going to bring that up if no one else did. I found it incredibly weird that Verin was able to transport the Band to Caemlyn, including the 3 Aes Sedai and yet there was no mention of the fact that Verin used Traveling by Joline, Teslyn or Edesina in ToM.

Since the 3 AS took horses to Tar Valon in ToM, we can assume that they did not learn the weave for Traveling. But, none of them even mention the fact that Verin wouldn’t share the weave with them, or knew how to hide her weaves (if that’s what she did), or something along those lines? This caught my attention when I first read ToM.

Loialson@79 – So, let’s add a question regarding Verin transporting the Band to Caemlyn without allowing the 3 Aes Sedai to see the weaves. We shouldn’t make it too suspicious or pointed (so no mention on whether Verin suspects one of them being a DarkFriend).

Eclectic@81 – Like Jeff S said, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you feeling that way. I think the problem that most folks had with the comments on the other site was the whining and sense of entitlement that a number of folks displayed. That, and their accusations they made against BWS and TOR regarding the delays and ulterior motives.

EDIT: Eclectic@85 - Well, regardless of what motivated you to register, welcome to the reread crew. There's always room in the bunker for another WoTlover! Suffa would be more than happy to bring you a martini...
Norman Short
87. Eclectic_the_Bold
86.KiManiak: Thanks. I'm over it now. I have wanted to post over the years, and I'm definitely looking forward to commenting in the future.

I first got into WoT when a friend showed me the brand new trade paperback of The Great Hunt. Then she loaned me Eye of the World, and I don't know whether to thank her profusely or wish I'd never seen it. This long wait has effected the way I buy books now: I never buy a book in a series until the series is done. No more waiting for years for a book to come out...well after this one. Who am I kidding? The WoT has been a part of my life through the last 22 years; I've read them more than any other fiction. I've read Eye of the World at least 22 times now. And I still find new things in it, let alone new things in the later books.
88. Staizer
No one mentioned the (now obvious) work around Verin mentioned about the darkfriend thinking she was one of them... I may or may not have gaffawed (sp?) at that, there were no witnesses. Right there is proof that she still attempts to bend the truth instead of lie. Sue is such a master at deception that she knows it is easier to let people infer things instead of blatant lying, why lie that she was pulled around by mat when she can let him infer so much more.

Just an interesting thing I spotted from this installment.
Cameron Tucker
89. Loialson
how does this sound? I added a few.
Why did neither Teslyn, Joline, or Edesina make a big deal of the knowledge of the Traveling weave Verin possessed, or try to learn it from her (or perhaps memorize the weaves while they were woven) when they were being transported (off screen) by Verin to Caemlyn?

Did they try to convince Verin to tell them off screen, and failed? (as they obviously rode to Tar Valon in TOM)

Did Verin invert her weaves to prevent them from seeing?
90. Caveatar
@ZEXXES @333 on last week's thread. (That one seems dead now so I will use this one to reply until I am told not to do that.)

I thought you had some good logic going there regarding the possibility of Tuon's ability to channel being a known thing to her mother.
In considering your thinking I wandered off into a strange path you might like to consider.

Regarding the "Oh my God Suldam can learn to channel!" thing.

I fully expect that The Big Reveal regarding Suldam will be just like
the Big Response of Birgitte regarding visiting the *Finns.
Birgitte : "...And they will win, Mat. It's their world."
"And if we cheat?" Mat asked. "Iron, music, fire."
"That's not cheating. That's being smart. Everyone with half a wit who enters through the tower carries those things. But only one out of a thousand makes it back out, Mat."
(When I think of how many hours I spent on trying to figure out a way to sneak stuff into Finn Land and then the above statement by Birgitte. It embarrassed me. lol)

RJ's statement that "They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort."
Plus Tuon's statement that "she CHOOSES not to channel"
Plus the effort taken by the arrogant-assed Aes Sedai to force the Suldam to channel in the wagon. The Suldam refused to consciously channel until browbeaten into it.
All point to the fact that this knowledge should be 'intuitively obvious' to anyone.
I also expect something like the following will occur.

Someone, Rand, Mat, Whoever: confronts Tuon with the Big Reveal...

"AHA! Suldam can be channelers too! I guess that breaks a spoke in YOUR wheel, Empress. Neener Neener Neener."

Tuon: "Well of COURSE they can be channelers Fool!
('Fool!'spoken with Mr. T. of A Team voice.)
How else would they be able to link with the A'dam?
Those who can not learn to channel can not use the A'dam.
The important thing is that Suldam can control themselves and their Damane.
Uncontrolled they are a danger to all.
By doing things our way we control the danger and make use of a very valuable property.
Everyone with half a wit knows those things.
So. Do you have any more big secrets to reveal today?"

Whoever: "Weeeelllll dammit! I thought I had you by the short hairs there."
(Goes off grumbling.)

Rather prolixly and somewhat facetiously set forth but I am sure you get the idea.
What do you think?

john mullen
91. johntheirishmongol
When Mat said 'saidared it', I laughed out out because I thought it was perfect. I still think it is one of the funniest lines in the series.

I heart Verin, and miss her, and I hope the DO brings her back so we can all save her, just because she is so sneaky!

As for complaining about the book date, I thought it was pretty silly, especially since we have been kept up to date on all the issues for the past few years, and we know how incredibly hard RJ worked to leave enough notes to get his legacy finished. Also, we knew from the first that RJ had written an ending to the series, and that there would be a completion.

But I personally though Gaimon's rant about fans bitching about GRRM was totally inappropriate and wrong. The real difference is that no one told us what the issues were about finishing the series, or if it would even be finished, and that was not fair to all those who had purchased the previous books in the series. The implied contract is that if you have a series, and it is selling like these did, then you must conclude the series. If you don't know how to conclude it, then you need to get help. GRRM is the one who screwed it up, not the fans. They paid good money for the books in the expectation that the series would be completed. If they don't buy those first books, no series would ever get written, so readers take it on faith, and buy the books.

End rant
92. JasonD
@90: I would say that the Big Reveal about the sul'dam would be a danger if the citizenry of Seanchan got wind of it, if the citizenry as a whole do truly believe that ALL channelers must be leashed.

re: The Release Date:
I worked for a video game store as an assistant manager for a considerable length of time, and one issue that was always difficult to resolve was a customer's displeasure at delays in releases. I would typically counter with the assertion that they would be even more disappointed if a product was shoved out the door to meet an earlier date, but was very shoddy quality or only half-finished. This now happens with video games all the time, now that even concole games can be patched over the internet, but I've never head of a novel being patched. Maybe one day, when everyone has an ebook and printed media truly dies (shudder) will they be able to do that, but wouldn't you be even more indignant if you bought a major release with spelling and grammatical errors, or even worse, have to buy each chapter separately? That would be the true end of the world...

And speaking of the apocalypse, the whole 12-21-2012 thing? I don't buy it for a second. They say that the Mayan calendar ends on that date and that means the world will end, because the ancient Mayans have been right about so much already. The Mayan calendar is carved into a giant stone circle, and the only reason it ends on that auspicious date is because they ran out of room to carve. It's not like giant stone circles grow on trees you know! ^_^
93. Caveatar
@92 JasonD
"The Mayan calendar is carved into a giant stone circle, and the only
reason it ends on that auspicious date is because they ran out of room
to carve. It's not like giant stone circles grow on trees you know! ^_^"

LoL. Ain't it the truth.
They have also ignored the final glyphs on the big rock.
The final glyphs translate into English as either
"See Next Rock for Next Calendar" or
"Continued on Next Rock"

James Hogan
94. Sonofthunder
Cav @93 - classic!

Also - welcome to the re-read, Eclectic!! Glad you decided to finally take the leap. It's worth it, trust me.

As to the fact that the Seanchan people will revolt if it's common knowledge that sul'dam can channel, that's what I always figured the outrigger novel about Mat and Tuon in Seanchan was going to cover. Tuon finally begins to channel(who knows why) and some of the High Blood whip up the common folk and most of the army against her (save maybe the Deathwatch?), and so she must take back Seanchan, with Mat's help of course. It's a good ending, because she'll not be able to focus on Randland, but will have to go back to pacify her own country. This leaves Randland free of Seanchan influence. I also assume that Tuon will decide channelers can be trusted. Of course, this is predicated on an extremely large paradigm shift on Tuon's part...but it's possible. If anything can change her mind, love can. And Mat is charming.
95. JasonD
@93: These days it would say "Further dates available to Premium members only."
96. CaveatarTheMutt
95. JasonD @93:
These days it would say "Further dates available to Premium members only."

ROFL. Good one!
Hmmmm. I wonder what the charges would be.

One virgin's heart payable at each winter solstice?

I need a unicorn to find a virgin.
They are very scarce.
And not many unicorns around these days either.

97. Just Mo
Actually Verin was in a win-win (she thought) once she got Mat to give his word that he would either wait 30 days in Caemlyn or open the letter and act on the contents. The "Evil Plan" wasn't "revealed" until after her death. And I'm willing to bet that the original 50 days was meant to keep him in Caemlyn until the Trolloc invasion showed up. She had to settle for 30 days and gambled that his Ta'Veren nature would lead to the discovery of the Evil Plan before it was unleashed. If he opened the letter, he would be bound by his word to help save Caemlyn instead of whatever else he might have had planned, hopefully foiling the Evil Plan. Where I think her plan went awry is that I believe she expected Mat and the Band to actually be IN Caemlyn, instead of camped outside of it. Thus using mat's random luck to "stumble" upon the Evil Plan.
Birgit F
98. birgit
But only one out of a thousand makes it back out, Mat.

And Mat's memories seem to be from the people who did make it back out. It's not surprising that many of them were heros.

I also assume that Tuon will decide channelers can be trusted. Of course, this is predicated on an extremely large paradigm shift on Tuon's part...but it's possible. If anything can change her mind, love can.

Is Mat really the right person to teach anyone to trust AS?
Juan Avila
99. Cumadrin
I'm still up because of my darn video game.
Juan Avila
100. Cumadrin
But at least I nicked this!

Neener neener.
James Hogan
101. Sonofthunder
Cumadrin, punk! I was just hovering here waiting...and in you swoop.

Well played, sir. Well played.

What game you on, anyway?

(This post is not off-topic at all, not at all)

birgit - if Mat can bring himeself to present a convincing argument for trusting Aes Sedai...I think Tuon will believe him. She knows how well he and Aes Sedai get along!!
Martyna Berek
102. missbee
anthonypero @ 70
I have a pet theory that Edorion is a DF who had worked for Sammael, we know there is something odd about Noal and there may well be other DFs within the Band.
But, whichever way you look at it, no one found Mat until Verin did.
The only conclusion I've been able to come up with is that any DFs within the Band are either serving an FS who can not use TAR to get their reports, or is now dead.
Originally I had thought that maybe Mat had been found and there was an ambush planned in Trustair, but if that was the case I can't see how Verin could justify removing Mat out of the way and survive.

I'm not too bothered about how Verin hid the weaves from the other AS. There is a whole army to move so she could have just created the gateway on the other side of the camp when they weren't looking (and gated out at the other end before anyone gave her too much bother). She's talked her way around Cads and FS before now so I'm sure she can cope with Joline.
I am surprised that there were no grumbles about it afterwards, but, at the same time, the AS would never admit to not knowing something in front of the men, so we wouldn't have heard about it.

@ Caveatar - heh, thanks.
Wrong time of the year for ants here, the dog next door is quite friendly though...
Norman Short
103. Eclectic_the_Bold
I just read Neil Gaiman's old blog post linked by Leigh at the top. And he's right. But there is also the flip side of the coin. Once burnt, twice shy I call it. This wasn't the first book in a series that went longer than expected to finish. I just looked up a book by Jerry Pournelle called Janissaries that I read back in 1979. He wrote the sequel in 1982, and left us hanging in mid-story. He's written dozens of books since then and promised to finish the series back in 2001 or so. I'm still waiting. Then Jordan came along and I waited for each book since The Great Hunt. At long last next January at least this one will be finished.

But the other side of the coin to me is that you start a book that isn't a stand alone novel at your own risk, and the author should know that some readers wont read his works until they're finished. So, while I'm happy to read most of Brandon's own works, I wont be touching Way of Kings until the last one comes out. And GRRM wont get my money until he does finish his series.

One thing he was right about though. There are plenty of other books to read. The sun will turn into a red giant and engulf the Earth before I run out of good books to read without ever having to wait for years for a sequel to come out again. And I expect I'll still be re-reading WoT for some years to come, with all the more pleasure that I'll be able to finish the story.
Susan Brownhill
104. SusanB
had to share....
I was reading the reread with my 4 year old on my lap. He asked me about the chapter icon. I told him what it was. He said, "Mommy, how did that snake get so confused that it is eating its own tail?"
I laughed so hard...it is the perfect description of Aes Sedai & I had never thought of it before! The wisdom of 4 year olds.

Fortouna's name...I find very annoying. In my head I always say "for TUNA". Which just jars me out of the book, but I can't seem to stop myself.
Anthony Pero
105. anthonypero

There are a couple of threads on the forums that address this very topic. There are a number of reasons that authors don't finish series, and most of them deal with puvblishing realities. Most series lose readership as you go along. It's more financially sound for a publisher to abandon a series and tell the author to write something new to fulfill a contract. And of course, the author needs to eat. And so do his/her kids. The law of diminishing returns applies to series fiction, just like everything else.
Anthony Pero
106. anthonypero
Also, the Way of Kings probably won't be finished for 15-25 years, based on Brandon Sanderson's publishing schedule, as listed on his blog.
107. Caveatar
@104 Susanb
Fortouna's name...I find very annoying. In my head I always say "for
TUNA". Which just jars me out of the book, but I can't seem to stop

Crap, now I will hear that 'f''r TUNA forever after when I see her name.
May Santa Schwana belabor her with a bastard crossbreed of a Lionfish and a Silverpike.

Wrong time of the year for ants here, the dog next door is quite friendly though..
Friendly enough to let you jump right to the last step and trade keyboards? :D


Anthony Pero
108. anthonypero
80. Loialson

The point is they can give away a big chunk of the first book for $.99 to let new readers try out the series.
Terry McNamee
109. macster
Leigh: Right on the money about the people complaining about the delayed release of AMoL--not the ones who were merely disappointed or concerned, but the ones who were assuming the delay was due to greed or a conspiracy, rather than an effort to make the book the best it can be. Those people were tools and deserve to be called out on it. Your words would indeed be too harsh for the fans who were merely disappointed and a bit impatient, but polite about it, but they weren't meant for them.

Ter'angreal assassins? Well the Seanchan have a problem with channeling itself, with the people who can do it getting out of control, taking over, becoming a danger. By definition ter'angreal only do one thing with the Power, and as long as they aren't damaged, made to do something they werne't intended to do, or used recklessly, they rarely ever malfunction or cause harm, so they wouldn't be seen as dangerous the way channelers are. And some don't require use of the Power to activate them, so they'd also be able to avoid the stigma of channeling that way. The question of where they came from though is an intriguing mystery. It could be as simple as them having been made centuries ago and kept carefully stored so they wouldn't run out or be lost, but maybe not...

Fortuona/Death of Tuon fast one: While I don't care for the Fortuona name itself, I do love both the pun and the allusion in it. And I too had that reaction when I saw the chapter title...only to wonder if it was figuratively true after all. As to why she is going through with this attack...apparently she considers the Dragon Reborn's enmity a small price to pay if she can deprive him of allies and power in the process. Nevermind he's powerful enough on his own he doesn't need the Aes Sedai (to take out the Seanchan that is, since they will surely be necessary at the Bore). Good thing he's soon about to start Walking on Sunshine, isn't it?

I also note the interesting point that she regrets having to kill marath'damane instead of collar them. On the one hand, yay that she doesn't advocate the outright killing of these dangerous 'creatures'; on the other hand, despite wanting to see them controlled she clearly has no qualms about making use of them as tools to help the Seanchan reign supreme. But then that sort of mentality makes sense for someone who views a group of people as no different than animals--without getting into anything too controversial, let's just that say that some people in our world are quite happy to continue using animals as beasts of burden, for various menial tasks, or to tame them so as to spare land and livestock, even as they would never advocate killing them outright. Note I am not saying I think we should free all our pets and farm animals or allow wild beasts to run amok, just that the contrast between refusing to indulge in one kind of harm while still carrying out something that could be interpreted as another form is a bit hypocritical--and as usual, we're seeing that here with the Seanchan.

Verin lying or not: having many plans and contingencies doesn't mean she still couldn't have been dragged across half the continent, just that when she was, she incorporated this into her planning, as KiManiak said. As chaplainchris suggested, she probably intended to tell Egwene about the invasion and have her warn Elayne, it's just that being yanked away by a ta'veren allowed her to find Mat or Perrin and tell them instead.

To some extent we get Thom's reaction in ToM, when he reminds Mat about Verin's warning and seems deeply concerned, and brings it up again when they reuntie with Perrin, complete with the tale of the tribe that painted a target on their leaders. But that isn't shown in this scene, so that may dilute its effectiveness in displaying a changed perspective.

@5, 21, 26: Agreed. Zexxes is also making the point I did before, that the Pattern needed this to happen--Verin had her own plans, but Mat needed to be in Caemlyn for Elayne, the dragons, and Moiraine, and her being the one to get him there just made it easier for her to use him in her plan to warn about the Shadowspawn attack. The fact it failed is either due to Mat's ta'veren nature resisting her (or her underestimating his stubbornness), or because the Pattern needed Caemlyn to be attacked, even fall. We shall see in AMoL.

But overall, I still think that Verin wasn't lying, merely using the ta'veren pull to carry out her plan while keeping her agenda a secret, and I'd be interested to see Anthonypero's rationale on why she must be lying. Even setting aside the fact she might have been able to guess where he was going and wait for him without the ta'veren pull, what reason would she have to lie? Jordan might have had an OOC reason, to clue us in to her being Black right before the reveal, with her little comment about being mistaken for a Darkfriend an example of Jordan's typical irony, but what's the in-story reason? Mat can't confirm what she said, so if she was trying to come up with a story he would believe (having had ta'veren experience himself) so he would trust her, it didn't really work. And there's the OOC reason I gave before for it being true, a parallel being set up between this and the chapter with Rand using his ta'veren effect on Tuon.

In any event, I am not bothered by people thinking Verin was a liar (after all she did lie about Moiraine sending her, and other things too), since she more than proved her awesomeness and that she walked in the Light. I am just puzzled because when I read the scene it struck me as completely genuine. But maybe I'm too easily taken in by Jordan/Sanderson's use of the familiar (ta'veren) to hide deception.

@18 azuarc: Fascinating point, I never even thought of that! Which is funny, since I'd always been struck by the power and memorable nature of that Japanese admiral's words about awakening the sleeping giant, as referenced by Blood_Drunk. Considering Jordan's military background, this parallel almost had to be intentional.

@23 missbee: Could that be foreshadowing for what happens when Mat goes to the Tower to get the Horn, and runs into Bode there?

@24 Wortmauer: Hahaha! That's exactly what I thought when I read her new name. And I wonder if perhaps that allusion was intentional; we can all laugh at the idea of Mat with his luck being married to a woman practically named Fortune, but the way Fortune is depicted in the Carmina Burana is...uncomfortably apt when compared to Empress Tuon--harsh, arrogant, out to bring down the world and place it under her heel, not to mention the whole nature of Seanchan society as being very easy to gain/lose face, for a member of the Blood to become da'covale or be locked away by the Seekers while someone else rises in authority the way Tylee did (the Wheel of Fortune). It could also be a hint that if she stays on this path, it could be Tuon who will suffer at the slings and arrows of Fortune (perhaps literally, if Aviendha's future vision comes true).

@25 chaplainchris: One theory I've seen was that Verin wrote numerous letters, some with the real info and some with false, mixed them up in her bag, and allowed chance/the Pattern to make sure she drew the correct one to give Mat. This would seem to be undermined by the fact we know she later gave letters to others (Tiana, Alanna, and Galad are the ones we know about), except she could have mixed up the letters for them too. See also adaptr's theory @38. Otherwise, the only answer I can give is that she was able to write the letter because at the time she had no intention of giving it out; that when she did give it to him, she believed she'd make it the Tower in enough time to get the rod or take the poison; and that she trusted his word would keep him from looking until after she was dead or free, but his curiosity would guarantee he did look eventually and in time to help. Since she hadn't seen him since Great Hunt, it's understandable she misjudged him and didn't realize how stubborn he was or how set against Aes Sedai and their schemes.

@31 elliesaurus, 76 Jeribai: Actually I laughed out loud at saidared, it seemed vintage Mat to me. And I think between hanging around Aes Sedai from Salidar onward, plus his memories, that he would know the term. You are more right to be skeptical, I think, in Perrin knowing the term 'weave', although to be fair he's also been around Aes Sedai a great deal, from Moiraine to those with his army.

As for caring about the taint, simple: remember how upset and worried Mat was when he first learned Rand could channel, how he was scared he'd go mad and didn't want to be around him any more? He got shocked out of the possibility of betraying Rand over this by the Portal Stone jaunt. So even with him and Rand having grown estranged, he has a pretty good reason to know about the taint, and to be glad it's gone. He still shows a lack of trust, and suspicion about Rand's madness, but knowing the taint is gone so Rand won't get any worse would surely be important to him.

@54 stunned: While it is never a good idea to bait trolls like you, I just have to say that I am both amused and disgusted that, with your post, you are proving Leigh exactly right in her estimation--since anyone who thinks it is right to question why Tor is doing this (i.e. abscribing to some sinister conspiracy theory or greed), snipe about Leigh for making money doing the blog (clearly jealousy is involved here--you wish you could make money 'easily' like she does), trot out the tired complaints about her feminism, apparently accuse her of making up illnesses and emergencies and various other reasons not to post, and generally attack her for not giving you what you want, when you want it...is rightfully deserving of being called an unintelligent, childlike whiner with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. While I do not always agree with Leigh's opinions or how she states them, I think a closer reading of her entries shows she is nothing like what you paint her as. As for Tor, if you were truly a loyal fan you'd want to have the series done right, without errors or a crappy writing job ruining the end of a great series, instead of complaining about supposed moneymaking attempts. This coming on the heel of the large number of errors in ToM which happened precisely because it was rushed is especially nonsensical. If you think Tor is cheating you, by all means don't bother waiting for the last book; if you don't like Leigh's blog, don't read it; and then do us all a favor and don't bother posting on it either. You clearly have nothing worthwhile to contribute.
Terry McNamee
110. macster
@64 misbee: I wondered myself how the gholam got there so fast. Even if, as we learn, it can go through gateways, someone had to a) make the gate for it and b) know where to send it. I suppose a) could have been Moridin, Demandred, or Taim while b) could have come from any Darkfriends in Caemlyn who identified Mat--there were plenty who did so in ToM. But if the info actually came unwillingly from Verin...

@68 anthonypero: Oh come now, was that a potshot at me and my little debate about Sorilea and how she closed the door? Though if it was...that was actually a pretty damn good zing. I laughed!

@69 Samadai: I like that idea.

@74 forkroot: That...is a very good question. However, while misbee's question about the gholam may receive a direct answer from Sanderson (since it's dead, Verin's dead, and whoever brought it there is likely no longer around or will be busy elsewhere), I am afraid you may get a RAFO. Because one of the three being Black would surely be a major plot point in AMoL, as would any reason they weren't allowed to know Traveling and the fact their heading back to the Tower will likely put them right in the middle of Mat reclaiming the Horn and the second Seanchan attack. Another thing the Pattern decreed had to happen, perhaps...if the delay caused them by them traveling normally means they'll get there in time for Egeanin to save Egwene?

@88 Staizer: Thank you, that's a very good point and another reason I don't think Verin was lying. As KiManiak and others have suggested, she may have woven the ta'veren tugging into her own plans and made the most of it in order to further her agenda, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I would again point out the parallel between the Trustair chapter and Rand's meeting with Tuon, where one instance of ta'veren power in action is contrasted with the other, thus reinforcing her story. As was also pointed out, Mat feels pulled all the time by Rand, and he in turn is the most powerful ta'veren after Rand, so why couldn't he pull Verin's thread? Especially if, as I suggested higher up, the Pattern needed her to be here, needed Mat in Caemlyn, needed her letter given out and the info given to Egwene in the manner and time that it was.

@92 JasonD: Good point. Only thing is, there doesn't seem to be time for such a revelation to the Seanchan citizenry to happen, particularly with the empire in chaos and a murderer on the throne in Seandar. So unless the mere threat of revealing the truth to the people can convince Tuon, it still seems the only way to get an alliance, or lead to the release of the damane, is if Tuon is forced to channel by circumstances.

@101 Sonofthunder: Nice comeback. And considering what Mat tells Setalle Anan in ToM, that it isn't Aes Sedai themselves he hates it's being manipulated by them and told what to do, maybe he can convince Tuon. Just because he doesn't like being manipulated or told what to do doesn't mean he wants to see Aes Sedai locked up and having their wills broken. Plus, despite his feelings, he still freed Teslyn and Edesina, so there's some respect there to start from.

@104 SusanB: LOL! Priceless...from the mouths of babes indeed.
Anthony Pero
111. anthonypero

Who, me? But sir, I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for your door-closing skills!
Alice Arneson
112. Wetlandernw
Okay, folks, what's the best emoticon for a wicked grin? I really, really want one... :)

Close the door, boys, and don't keep me waiting!
Ron Garrison
113. Man-0-Manetheran
Late to the party: Laissez les bons temps rouler! So hard to catch up if I get here late, so apologies if someone pointed out the following:

Verin’s story about being tugged to Mat via his ta'vereness reminded me of another “lie” — that infamous line: "Moiraine sent me." Anyone else do that flashback? Both occasions, though, might be examples of her ability to sense the boys through their ta'vereness. It’s a ta’Verin thing.

@ 74 & 75 re. Verin’s motive for not teaching the sisters traveling: remember that she KNOWS who the black sisters are, and one or more of the three is Black.
Martyna Berek
114. missbee
macster @ 109 - foreshadowing - yes, Mat looking for the Horn of Valere is exactly what I was thinking

@ 110 - Verin and the gholam - I absolutely agree it could have been anyone who informed on Mat. Verin would merely speed the inevitable.

Call me obsessive, but every time Verin says or does something I automatically try to work out how she justifies it to the 'other side'. She's achieved an incredible balancing act and has maintained it for a very long time, but how? Verin is very good at switching subjects and we assume she does it to confuse and provoke a reaction, but I suspect she also does it to stop people from telling her things she'd rather not know, things she might be forced to report. On the other hand, if she is to maintain her usefulness to the DO she must come up with something.

If Verin had to make a full report on Mat (and I can't imagine her being able to withhold much), what else did she say? We've discussed the fact that Verin chose not to give Travelling away to the AS, but what about the other way round? What did the AS give away? Did they tell Verin that Mat is now married to Tuon? Or just that Mat has the hots for her?

The gholam knew about Tuon and so I spent quite a while looking for DFs within the Band, but maybe it was Verin all along.
I'm loath to continue much further down this line of reasoning because it will all come up in future chapters, but yeah, I'd quite like to know if it was Verin who informed on Mat.
Anthony Pero
115. anthonypero
We'll never get an answer on that before the end of aMoL
Tess Laird
116. thewindrose
Holy comments, Batman! You all have been busy - less than 24 hours and at 113! Love seeing new commenters - welcome - as well as the OG:)

(Can we have more comments like 54's, I need the eye exercise. Just kidding - I can get that on TTTSNBN...)

This chapter - Mat and Verin goodness - wish there could have been more. I didn't have a problem with Mat knowing about saidar/saiden - check out what Mat and Verin are talking about right before his 'saidared it' comment; how saiden is clean now.

Love how Verin said a Darkfriend who thought she was a servent of the DO gave her the pictures - so funny!

More later:)

Karen Fox
117. thepupxpert
@92 & @93 - love it! Definitely needed to be said! Now back to finish the thread...
Karen Fox
118. thepupxpert
@103 - What about Clan of the Cave Bear, I read all 5 books as they came out and when I read the very last paragraph of the 5th book I turned the page to keep reading and... wow, I couldn't believe it ended there! I waited and waited for years and finally gave up on the series. Funnily enough, I just found out that the 6th book came out last year while I was doing the research to write this post! Haha how dumb to I feel? Amazon here I come!
Norman Short
119. Eclectic_the_Bold
anthonypero@105: Well that's what happens when you come late to the party I suppose. I hope no one expects me to be up on everything that happened in the past before I make a comment.

But what you said actually supports my position. I don't like being left hanging forever on an unfinished story. We're extremely fortuonate (sic) that WoT is getting finshed at all, and I'm very grateful for that.

Now I don't count series that has their world resumed but the prior book did finish on a note that didn't leave you hanging. Example: Mistborn. The trilogy is finished, and I believe can be read despite the fact that Alloy of Law and future books will take place in that universe.
Karen Fox
120. thepupxpert
@109 Sorry for being dumb but I don't get either the illusion or the pun, can someone enlighten me?
Nadine L.
121. travyl
Love the witty and hilarious comments *stunned* sparked.
And Caveatar @...: you're still a genius on this thread, love it.

About Verin: I don't know if Verin really does need to have such a hard time with (perform / justifying) her doings. Other than Forsaken we haven't seen Darkfriends being summoned to Shayol Ghul and you are allowed to double-cross other DF. - Missbee (114), if "forced to report" I think it is legitimate to "omit" some facts. And even if one found out about her dereliction, I think sneaky Verin would find a way to justify it. I think most orders have room for interpretation.
122. Caveatar
@120 Pupxpert
I your are referring to this...
"Fortuona/Death of Tuon fast one: While I don't care for the Fortuona name itself, I do love both the pun and the allusion in it."

Possibly the name "Fortuona" can be interpreted as "
Dame Fortune" or in other words Mat (the lucky bastard) is married to "Lady Luck".
Than might be what you are looking for?
OP could probably explain otherwise.

Paul Long
123. Caveatar
Sorry about the typo.
Should be
"If you are referring...."

I haven't learned how to edit a post yet.
I should hide my face.
Chin Bawambi
124. bawambi
@ macster - your comment about animals reminded me of the old documentary called the animal contract. For those of us not old enough to remember this (20 yrs ago) it was a quite gruesome series that detailed the modern worlds failings in the implied social contract with the animal kingdom. BTW, for all of you meat eating Catholics out there if you needed an extra push for the Lenten season... Warning: viewing this might make you become a vegetarian (that goes for everyone else as well).
125. Giacomo
About the Seanchan ter'angreal - Luthair Hawkwing did not have Aes Sedai with him (due to family prejudice) when he arrived in Seanchan. Needing One Power weapons (damane) to bring the land under Hawkwing control. He captured the first damane by putting her own
a'dam around her neck. Which means they had some ability to craft ter'angreal before Hawkwing's son got there.

The Native Seanchan channelers ran around without an authority like the White Tower (setting up their own little kingdoms, fighting the next channeler over, doing whatever they wanted because they had the power, etc). Surely some of them were able to craft ter'angreal to help in their desire for conquest. The crystal throne and the bloodknife rings could easily have come from there. And, because the Wheel willed, the ability died out.
Paul Long
126. Caveatar
@357 on Previous Thread

Ode* to Wetlandernw

It was Springtime in Seattle
and the quahogs were in bloom**
and One Wetlander Woman
was in her dining room

All the dishes had been done
and put away with care.
thinking she will have some fun
she goes to her computer chair

Her practiced fingers stroke the keys
Her vast wit is now in gear
She makes posts which aim to please
and they DO please. No fear.

Then an argument comes along
and Wetlander tries to spike it
I suggest you reply this way
"I HOPE that you DON'T! like it."

People think what they WANT to Think
there's no way to change their mind
Call their attention to the mistletoe
you have pinned just above your behind.

* or "owed"
**I know what they are. Let it pass. :D :D
(If you are not from Seattle I apologize.)

Alice Arneson
127. Wetlandernw
Caveatar @126 - ::blushes:: Awwww... :) Thank you, my friend!
128. Kappi
First time post here. I've recently discovered these re-reads, this and the Patrick Rothfuss one. Both are excellent.

In regards to Verin teaching the other Aes Sedai in the Band, we know that Traveling has a threshold or minimum strength requirement. Possibly none of the three was strong enough to weave on their own...but now that I think about it, they still could have made a circle and then made the weave together. It seems the simplist explanation is that Verin purposely hid the weave from them, for whatever reason, be they known Darkfriend or because Verin does whatever in the Light she wants.
Anthony Pero
130. anthonypero

Wasn't trying to imply that you should have read them, sorry for the confusion. I was just pointing you to them should you be interested. There are actual publishers commenting on that particular forum thread, so it's worth a read.
132. s'rEDIT
It's embarrassing, but I'm going to confess:

I was so busy consciously willing myself to pronounce (mentally) For-too-OH-nuh...to avoid getting a loop of Carmina Burana going in my head...that I never caught the excellent pun until I read about here!

:: hides, red-faced and sheepish ::
Paul Long
133. Caveatar
@132 s'rEDIT
I never caught the excellent pun until I read about here!

I know exactly what you mean.
I have learned maybe 300 things about the books which I had missed by reading posts of others.
Occasionaly one lightens up in my thick skull and I perform the blessed Ritual "Headdesk" while repeating the Mantra "Duuuuuuuh"

Don Barkauskas
134. bad_platypus
Caveatar @123: If you post "in the red" you can't edit your posts. If you post "in the gray" then when looking at your post there should be a clickable "Edit" link (at the end, right after the "Bookmark" link).
135. s'rEDIT
That is: read about it (the pun) here in Leigh's commentary.

btw, LB asked whether it is "awesomely clever, or the worst pun in this entire series." But it can be both at once: that's my vote.
Paul Long
136. Caveatar
@134 bad_platypus
Thanks. I finally signed in (and told the site to 'remember me').
Now the edit thing shows up.
Also don't have to try to read the captcha whatever stuff.
Thanks again.

137. s'rEDIT
Sorry for the multiple posts, I'm just excited I finally caught up with the end of a thread (I've had to drop out of the past several).

@bad for Caveatar: I think that's reversed: if you post "red" there is no going back. If you post in the black (name, that is) you are posting while loggedin and will have the privilege of editing.
About people complaining about the release date of AMoL...

Weeell now I must be honest and say that I am one of them. To myself though. Although I did leave a post about it but it was more a complaint than a rant.

I don't remember any series of books ever taking this long to write. I mean sure there's The Foundation Series but he could have left it at that 4th book and he only went further because of peoples curiosity 15 years after that 4th book. Then there is Dune. That went on for awhile. An through different authors its still on going sort of, though the main storyline ended at year ten I think or somewhere there abouts. But this series has gone on long enough that very many people who have invested their time, their free time and not so free money, there hearts and dreams to this series are fricking exausted from it. I honestly had forgotten about it when a year after it released a Knife of Dreams I saw it in a book store and said "oh yeah... forgot all about that....".

ACoS, PoD, WH, CoT...those four could have been squished together into two volumes. I'm not the only one whos said that either. His pace between books went from a year a book to over two and a half years a book. Word count dropped by 100,000 approximately averaged during that time period. It was frustrating. I remember speed reading through those four. And I had only one logical conclusion as to why... money. But everybody is trying to get some. You know you want some too! So it was forgiven. But not forgotton. Greed.

You don't have to agree but I believe thats is why it is taking what will be 23 years for this series to be finished....

Now the words about Leigh....that ignorant infantile jibberish likened to a regressing primate? Well I still don't agree with calling you a troll, but damn dude.... Absolutely uncalled for.

Whining in general? Well now.... I gotta hear it every other post about Mat..... so why not the release date? We can't be hypocrites now can we?

If anyone thinks greed didn't play its part into how long its taken for this series to complete, I feel you're being a little naive. But that might just be me, but... I don't think so. Just sayin!

139. s'rEDIT
@138: hmmm . . . whereas, "financial considerations" may well be behind the decision, "greed" is an unnecessary value judgment, an uncalled for accusation.
Kimani Rogers
140. KiManiak
Loialson@89 – re: the questions for BWS – I like them. I admit that I’m actually more interested in Verin’s motivations for her actions (and clarification of what her actions actually were), but I’d be willing to bet that Brandon wouldn’t answer questions about that at this time. :-)

Thank you for being willing to do this. I envy all of you who are able to go to local signings/events with BWS. I look forward to when he comes to the Bay Area…

johntheirish@91 - I’m also not in agreement with Gaiman’s sentiments in that post. Do fans go too far? Sure; they’re fanatics. But are there times when they have valid points when they are complaining? Sure they do; the authors need readers to purchase their product in order to be successful and it’s probably not a good long term approach to alienate the vast majority of your fan base through actions that could be perceived as taking those fans for granted. There’s “getting it right” and then there’s “just procrastinating/putting it off.”

Communication is important. Team Jordan (and especially Brandon) have done an excellent job of communicating about AMoL’s evolution into a (almost) finished product for the last 3+ years. So I tip my cap to them and would defend them to any “fan” who hops on here and complains that TOR/Team Jordan is trying to con them or milk them for more money, or any other ridiculous assertion when all they have to do is read Brandon’s website. The man has multiple posts about the process. He even has a status bar of progress on existing projects. (Thankfully, there were a number of you who refuted the whiners so that I didn’t have to; props to anthonypero, lakesidey, wetlandernw, etc.)

Caveatar@93 – Nice! I’ve appreciated your humor these last few reread posts. Please, keep em coming!

Cumadrin@100 – Scoundrel! :-) Btw, props to us that we got to the Big One Hun in less than 24 hours.

missbee@102 – re: DFs in the Band - I think we should logically assume that there is at least 1 DF in Mat’s entourage. Edorion is as good a guess as any, at this time…

ap@106 – re: Way of Kings finishing date – Yeah, I’m a glutton for punishment because I’ll gladly follow that series as Brandon gives it to us. But, like you said, we know that it will be at least a 15 year or so commitment for the duration of that series. I enter that situation gladly…

macster@109 – re: Tuon’s view of damane- I see that you can (and did) make the comparison of damane to animals; but I would suggest that Tuon probably views them more as tools or weapons in this situation. While, yes, viewing the actual women as subhuman…

macster@109 – re: Verin – Good point about the Pattern maybe needing Caemlyn to be attacked

missbee@114 – per your request, “you’re obsessive.” :-) And I think we should question how Verin satisfied her Darkside masters while doing her awesome double agent routine…

bawambi@124 – Thanks for the recommendation. There are very few things on this Earth that can talk me out of my love for steak, so if I ever come across that documentary, I’ll risk it :-)

Caveatar@126 – Nice Ditty!

Kappi@128 – Welcome! As for the strength of the 3 AS: I believe speculation is that Joline and Teslyn are both fairly strong in the Power, since they were former Sitters. Plus, it appears that Edesina defers to them, which would lead to speculation that they are strong (or at least stronger than her). I know that the 13th depository site has done a breakdown in likely Power levels. Joline and Teslyn are speculated to be strong enough to Travel.
Paul Long
141. Caveatar
"...I don't remember any series of books ever taking this long to write...."

I believe the Black Tower thing by S. King with Roland the Man in Black
took about 30+ years. I caught up every time he released another chapter.
He worked on it at odd times for MANY years.

EDIT: Removed potential spoiler

I personally think S. King is one of the best StoryTellers I ever read.
Nonetheless I wanted to walk all the way to Maine and kick his ass for that.
(He would probably beat me to death but I wanted to do it for a few days.)
Don't get me wrong, I still read every word the man writes that is available.
But that DID give me the RedAss like a Bohemian Bull! (That is a condition of EXTREME irritation if you haven't heard the expression before.)
I got over it. Finally :D

I also am disappointed at the delay.
AT my last appointment with my doctor she, once again, advised me to have the damned multiple bypass operation which I have opted out of for several years now.
She said, "You will live a few years longer if you do."
I said, "Will you guarantee I will live til Christmas?"
She said, "What?"
I said, "I managed to last long enough to read Mark Twain's autobiography (part 1)which had been delayed for 100 years from his death, (2010), and the only other thing I was now hoping to do was to read the "Absolute By God Ultimate Book of The Wheel of Time" I have been reading it for 20 frigging years."

Startled, she said, "Oh, you will quite likely live that long without the operation."
To which I said, "Good deal Doc. That is all I need. No bypassing thank you."
I am as disappointed about the delay as anyone but even though I might get mad about it , "Getting Mad" is ALL I can do about it.

So I try not to complain too much because it just makes me feel worse.
Also from my vantage of the Golden Years, (HAH. Golden my tiny shiney hiney! Not even brass.),
even with my failing memory I can remember MANY more serious disappointments than this one.
In the meantime I get my fix by reading these rereads and enjoying the
many insights regarding things I have previously missed.
There are some very knowledgeable people who post about WoT and many other things.

Don't mean to bend your ear too much. Just to say,
"Boy do I ever know what you mean!"

Well now SK was very productive in between the Dark Tower series. So productive that I haven't bothered to finish it. I stopped at book four. Wow has it really been that long?

Also don't get me wrong, on BS and Team Jordan on their efforts. Their pace has been outstanding. Their commitment, tireless.

Hail Sanderson... Hail Team Jordan!

Charles Gaston
143. parrothead
First thing, I just switched to a different department and was training on graveyard last week, so I've been dead to the world, so I didn't even learn until today that a) there is a release date, but b) it got pushed back. Really? I know it's only a couple months, and I'm in no hurry to close a chapter of my life that started when I was 13, and I definitely want a polished finale (the earlier comparison to a game release was apt; I already preordered Xenoblade Chronicles for April), but still...Really? Agh, I'm over it. And I suppose I shouldn't comment on the bit from Gaiman (whom I really like), because my thoughts on Mr. Martin are probably not fit to print.

Tuon: evil, stupid, callous, and pompous. So the same as always. She's like the Reagan of the WoT world. Verin, on the other hand, makes a serious miscalculation here, a single blemish on her Awesomeness.

Enough people have called out the obnoxious troll, but here's another thing to consider: it's Mardi Gras, in New Orleans. NOBODY works on Mardi Gras on pretty much the entire Gulf Coast. My brother, who went to Lousyanna Suck, essentially got two Spring Breaks.
John Massey
144. subwoofer
@Man-O 113- excellent point! Sneaky Verin gets one over on the bad guys again:)

@SoT heh:) yeah I'd be choked too at 6 am Est. lurking in the bushes then having the prize snatched by another poacher. Reminds me of a TBBT show where they go to catch the midnight rerun of "Raiders" and they get there behind overachieving geeks that camped out from days before and miss out on some seats;)

Umm... as far as publishing dates, there were at least a couple of years between books 7-11 in terms of publishing dates, and that was the OG author doing schtuff. Brandon has to really work at the authenticity angle then deal with a slew of edits before we, the pickers of nits get our grubby mits on the books.

As for epiphany moments, I prefer a Homeresque "d'oh!" when I see something that has slipped by my "razor" intellect;)

Mardi Gras is supposed to be the big send off before Lent starts. Let us
all be firm in our faith brothers and sisters and pray for these sinners in their time of need:D

John Massey
146. subwoofer
Free books go hand in hand with starving artists. If Paris Hilton can make bags of money for doing the good Lord only knows what, why begrudge Tor, RJ's widow, Brandon etc for wanting to get paid?

btw- "promise" is a strong word. I think it was a rough outline. Tor was just ballparking. I'd group it in with horseshoes and hand grenades:)



I said what I needed to on the other thread. I think it still applies.

Apologies excepted, front where I'm sitten.

Roger Powell
148. forkroot
I wonder if RJ would have been able to keep that promise of only one more book. Given that Brandon is working off RJ's notes for all of the major plot points, it seems that a one-book AMoL would either have been sketchy or unbindable! (RJ had hinted at the latter.) Of course we'll never know.

I don't have any recollection of a "Two book" promise from Sanderson. Do you have a reference or something? AFAIK, once Sanderson got into the project and did a realistic assessment of how many words it would take to fill out the outline ... the decision went right to three books.

I am, frankly, amazed at how open and forthcoming BWS has been through the entire project. It's hard to come up with a major fantasy writer that has been more accessible to his fans. I have had no reason to feel that he or anyone else on "Team Jordan" or anyone at Tor has been disingenous. If anything, it seems that they are very serious about their resposibility for what will be RJ's legacy.

UPDATE: I went back through Brandon's blogs and I did see him muse briefly that the book might have to be split (implying two books at that point) - certainly not a promise!

For those interested, I strongly recommend reading Brandon's blog entry on why AMoL was split into three books.
It's available at this mirror:

If, after reading that, you still feel that Brandon or Tor has acted with less than full integrity - I don't think I'll be able to convince you.

FURTHER EDIT: I should mention that that link does support TFK's point that there was at one point a "conservative" estimate that had the final book at November 2011. What we're seeing here though is the author baring his soul about his expectations, workload, reasons for the split and so forth.

I probably have more sympathy than most since I work in software development, which is notoriously tricky to estimate delivery dates for. Producing AMoL has certain similarities, especially the need for diligent, multiple reviews to "debug" the finished product!
Roger Powell
149. forkroot
OK - And now I go over to the AMoL release thread and find that @145 is a duplicate of a post on that thread. I also see that Wetlandernw made somewhat similar points (to mine) about BWS openness over there. It's probably the best thread for any additional comments on that topic.
Paul Long
150. Caveatar

I want to thank you with profuse thanks for your idea regarding the Suldam Damane.
Reading your posts made me think and let me tell you up front making this wreck of a thinking device think is a trick worthy of Harry Houdini!
Couldn't let it go so I did what usually works. I looked it up in a place where someone knows what they are talking about.

The Book of Linda the Librarian aka The Thirteenth Depository
13depository dot blogspot dot com/search?q=a%27dam
Search for A'dam and get a lot of info.
Part of which I copied ....
In appearance, the a’dam is a collar and bracelet of cunningly worked silvery metal connected by a leash. According to Elayne, the bracelet and collar have ‘absolutely identical matrices’ (Lord of Chaos, Prologue). It forms an involuntary link between two women: the dominant bracelet wearer and the enslaved collar-wearer.
This is why the sul’dam must be a woman who can channel too.
The leash is not an actual necessity (The Fires of Heaven, A Question of Crimson); apart from aiding physical restraint, it is a mark of subjection for the damane, and indicates which damane is linked to which sul’dam. A’dam are made by certain damane, who are more valued and have better conditions than most (The Great Hunt, Damane).

In order to be part of a link, a sul’dam must have at least the potential to channel. Women who can channel and women with the inborn spark can of course be sul’dam, which is why the Seanchan test for the collar first, to enslave such women as damane, leaving only those who
cannot channel without being taught to be sul’dam.
So! It appears that Tuon's (may she suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome while wearing the A'dam) mother would be very much aware of her daughter being able to learn to channel. And it may be no secret to very many if any Seanchan.

I have pondered much on how the hell they could use that information to disrupt the slavery. Seems that they already know it.
Thanks for leading this horse's ass to water, er....information.

I recommend the article to any who are interested and in fact the entire
Book of Linda the Librarian commonly known as Thirteenth Depository.

j p
151. sps49
I don't understand how anyone is surprised at Mat knowing about the taint and the One Power halves. Doesn't everyone in Randland know about Crazy Lews Therin and fear false Dragons and get freaked out when they learn male childhood friends can channel and will go crazy and cause another Breaking of the World?

I also refuse to believe Verin ever did anything substantial for the Dark. Her fake-Brown act and the nature of Aes Sedai in geneal would aid her in stalling indefinitely- and there is no Black Oath to follow orders, is there? Just fear of consequences.

ZEXXES @138- I have stated broadly similar feelings about those middle books during the reread for one of those books, but not as an extremely personal and venomous attack. The tone of the AMoL complaints were a shock to many.

KiManiak @140- see ya at the signing!

Caveatar @150- The reactions of the collared sul'dames (plural?) and Egeanin belie any conclusion that this knowledge is common in Seanchan.
Jonathan Levy
152. JonathanLevy

Verin was planning to be dead within a day after she gave Mat the letter. Therefore, she only needed to convince herself that he would hold out until she was dead (or, strictly speaking, until one hour before she was dead). Thus her betrayal would occur after her death, thereby not violating her oath.

Re: Ta'veren
You raise an interesting possibility. Maybe she had that letter and was trying to reach Rand or Perrin and give it to him, but she kept getting sidetracked until she realized Mat's Ta'verenness was pulling her towards him, so she gave him the letter.

31. elliesaurus
Yup, me too. If someone thought it up in the newsgroup, or write it in a satire, I'd say it's a clever joke. In-story? Facepalm!

True, Mat is no randomly-chosen Randlander, but he's a non-channeler, and channelers and muggles think of the One Power in different ways. Non-channelers usually use the terms 'One Power' and 'Channeling' even if they are aware of the different halves (which Mat is) unless there's some need to distinguish between Saidar and Saidin (which only rarely happens). On the other hand, channelers usually think of whichever half is relevant.

There's a good example of this in LoC:38:
So long as it touched his skin, the One Power could not reach him. Not saidar, anyway; he had more proof of that than he cared for...
"No! If you wanted to talk, you should have talked instead of lashing out with your bloody Power. Now you can listen."
And again on the way south to Ebou Dar (LoC:47):
But if Nynaeve and the others had any thoughts of hair-pulling - and Mat would not want to be within ten miles of that, foxhead or no - they showed none of it to him. All he saw was a solid front, and more attempts to channel at him... He had never really let himself think whether the foxhead had any limits. He had proof and more than enough that it would stop saidar, but if all they had to do was pick something up with the Power and throw it at him...
Contrast with Nynaeve and Rand (both channelers) in the next two chapters, who between them use Saidin/Saidar 4 times and "One Power" only once:
She had felt saidar being woven, and as soon as she stepped from her bedchamber she saw the ward against eavesdropping Elayne had made ...
Rand felt Lews Therin reaching for saidin, touching the angreal, but Rand took hold of it himself...
He did not need the faint tingle in his skin to tell him they had embraced saidar...

With the angreal, Rand was sure he could make seven shields, even with them embracing saidar already...

...but with the One Power sharpening his eyes, Rand noticed the name "Erith."
And one example from Min, who uses 'One Power':
"It isn’t only that, Rand," (Min) said frantically. "It’s the aura. Blood, death, the One Power..."
I think this division is well established, though of course, there is no firm dichotomy. R and does use the term 'One Power', though infrequently, and Mat thinks 'Saidar', even if he never actually says it aloud before this point (I hope others will correct me if they remember such an occasion).

So I'd say yes, it's not impossible for Mat to come up with such a term, but it does go against the prevalent usage before this point.

Additional note: "True Source" is another term which seems to be used only by channelers. I've checked all 22 references in LoC using IdealSeek and it's quite consistent; I have not checked other books, however.
153. Freelancer
Having heard and read Brandon's story numerous times about becoming the author for the completion of the series, there was never a question that once he had evaluated the story outline and notes, he was going to aim for three books. He told Tom Doherty as much, and though there was some discussion about squeezing it into two for the oh-so-appropo thirteen volumes, Brandon knew that it wouldn't work.

He also has said on many occasions that his first priority was the completion of Jordan's saga. He had and has other commitments with deadlines of their own, but the work dominating his efforts has been WoT. He very much wanted another November release. For anyone to believe that greed is at the base of this "delay" requires some serious mental gymnastics (with a failed dismount). Try waiting ten months to see your family, and then whine about a book's release date.

Well that was certainly shameless. It's a good thing that Mommy's basement provides comfort and stability for you, so that you aren't bothered by oh, I don't know, REAL LIFE. You don't know Leigh, you can't begin to guess what other activities or issues require her time and attention on a regular basis. But you have the nerve to complain like her toddler nephew about not getting an adequate portion of the weekly fix you obviously crave, brought to you by her mind and spirit. How and whether she is paid for her efforts here, you have no financial stake in being able to freely read her work (or not, and Suffa will slam the bunker door on either your face or your backside, and who's to tell the difference), and therefore have no standing of value to be offended by her choices (more than likely agreed to by her employer, who is not you) regarding the frequency and substance of her posts.

Forgive me, I'm sure that is far too many words to express what amounts to grow up and get over yourself.
Nadine L.
154. travyl
JL, thanks for posting the reference, that Mat indeed new the term saidar - and even if he is a non-channeler, I think the rule of cool applies here for him not to use channel here.
"Saidared it" for me, works great with Mats character.

And: I am thankful only channelers know "True Source", being a muggle myself I am confused enough as it is betweeen One and True.

@ 42. elliesaurus, about Perrins use of "weave"
Going through ToM Perrin uses "weave" a few time in his head prior to him saying it to Egwene in TAR. He spent considerable time with untrained Ashaman and female channelers to pick it up. It's even on record:
ToM, Ch 10, After the Taint (On successfully linking 1st time)
"You're channeling it?" Perrin asked.
"Use it how?" Grady asked, eager.
"I ... It's hard to explain. The weaves are saidin, but I seem to be able to strengthen them with saidar. "
ToM, Ch 21, an open gate, from WiseOne Edarra:
"He said that this Gaebril had been using forbidden weaves on wetlanders
ToM, Ch 26
"We tried to make a gateway this morning to send refugees back Weaves fell apart and unraveled on us."
Perrin frowned. "Other weaves work fine?"
Anthony Pero
155. anthonypero

Actually, one of your quotes proves that Mat knows and understands the difference between the two halves... in fact, it's probably what gives him reason to learn the difference:

There's a good example of this in LoC:38:
So long as it touched his skin, the One Power could not reach him. Not saidar, anyway; he had more proof of that than he cared for... "No! If you wanted to talk, you should have talked instead of lashing out with your bloody Power. Now you can listen."
After being killed by Rahvin in tFoH, I'm sure Mat went out of his way to understand the difference between the two. Even if that speculation on my part is false, this quote shows that in his mind at least, way back in LoC, Mat was thinking of the two halves as different things, and using the term saidar correctly in his head. Its a short jump from there to "saidar'd it".
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
156. tnh
My apologies to those who'd replied to them, but I've unpublished comments by stunnedatthenerve and Fisher King. "Prove to me that you're not a conspiracy of evil" is not a basis for civil conversation. Neither is making groundless and unpleasant insinuations about Leigh, Harriet, Brandon Sanderson, or whoever strikes their fancy next.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled (and far more interesting) conversations.
Roger Powell
157. forkroot
Thank you and no apology needed.

I don't think the Rahvin incident applies. Mat was killed by the lightning, not a weave. It's the same vulnerability to indirect effects that allowed Adeleas (or was it Vandene?) to hit Mat with horse turds, tossing them with the One Power.

Curiously, we find out that his medallion protects against saidin when Halima tries to channel against him in Salidar. I don't think Mat understood that it was the male half of the power though, since it's the same cold feeling and Halima, um ... doesn't look like a male.
Nadine L.
158. travyl
forkroot: looking at Mats wish to the Finn TSR, Ch 24, Rhuidean:
"I want a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power"
With luck (and we know Mat has that) by wording as he did he might not only be safe from saidar and saidin (One Power) but possibly even from both One AND True Power. That would be wish-fulfillment to the word!
James Hogan
159. Sonofthunder
travyl @158 - awesome catch! I never thought about that, but I would wager you're right. Maybe this will even play into AMoL somehow. Moridin's got nothing on Mat.
Anthony Pero
160. anthonypero
@last three posts:

I'll look it up later (unless someone beats me to it) but I seem to remember Mat wondering to himself if the medallion would protect against a man's channelling as well. I realize we know that it does, but my speculation was that incident with Rahvin would be reason enough for Mat to be curious and learn some of the subtle differences.
Martyna Berek
161. missbee
Somehow I had always assumed that Mat's medallion would protect against TP as well as OP. The quote travyl found @ 158 appears to confirm it, with the use of the word 'Power' rather 'One Power' (or anything else).

Then, I stopped to work out why I had assumed what I did.
My thinking followed on from the effects of OP on the gholam. He's resistant to OP but not to the medallion. So it somehow seemed that the medallion is more powerful than the gholam(!)
Yeah, I know! Don't ask me to explain that leap of logic, I can't! It's completely unsupported, wildly inconsistent and utterly without basis in fact. Yet, it still kind of feels right!

Maybe I should take a nap or something ...
::slinks off into a quiet corner::
Anthony Pero
162. anthonypero
Its also possible that the medallion itself was created with the TP. After all, Mat does have the Dark One's own luck.
Martyna Berek
163. missbee
Now you've got me wandering whether the medallion was created with TP as well - the Dark One's own luck?
Paul Long
164. Caveatar
@156 tnh

In keeping with the mythological/religious themes of WoT
I offer in thanks to you,
accompanied by the chanting of
"Rafo", "Rafo", "I don't know, Mafo"
"Cadsuane", "Egwene", "Elayne", "What a pain"
and the rest of the litany...

The Parable of the Harvest of the Heathen

This Tor WoT reread is like a garden for both food and flowers.
The ground is owned by Tor.
The seed storehouse is The W0t books.
The Gardener is Leigh Butler.
The Harvester is one "tnh".**
The posters are vassals and visitors.
There are no forbidding walls to keep out visitors and no visible guards.
All are welcomed to come and take part.

The Gardener at intervals takes from the storehouse and plants a new group of flowers and food plants.
As she plants she takes note of the character of the seeds and shoots, commenting her opinion on the quality of each and how they may fruit or bloom in the future.

Then come the visitors and comment on the beauty of the flowers and the orderly arrangement and juxtaposition of various blooms and seed plants.
An occasional deeper thinker digs up a tuber from under the soil which many others had not even suspected of existing.
There is much 'ooohing' and 'aahhing' when these tubers are revealed and usually much appreciation for the ability of the one who filled the storehouse.
Visitors point out various things to one another and discuss the various points of interest and exceptional beauty which they have observed.
Very rarely a mild disagreement arises among some of them as to the relative merits, meaning or quality of the plants but no harm comes of it.
Much enjoyment is had by all and the weekly planting is one of the high points of many visitors' week.

At rare intervals a 'heathen' unbeliever comes into the garden.
Disregarding the flowers, the fruits and food plants, and even the other visitors acts in an untoward and improper manner.
Such a one insult's the owner of the garden, the gardener, the visitors and even sow weeds and other objectionable things to disrupt the garden and the pleasures of the visitors.
Such as these scatter manure but it is not the kind which is conducive to the growth of healthy plants.

Then there appears a visitor from the heavenly places.
The Harvester of the Heathen uproots the bad seed, burns the weeds, restores the garden and soothes the visitors. The Garden is restored and the visitors once again relax and enjoy the beauty of such a place.
And one such as I can fill my day with a visit to the garden to observe what has bloomed overnight.

Thank you.
May your Harvest be abundant,
May the Luck of Mat be with you,
may Nynaeve guard your health and
may Bela the EverPresent carry you to your most desired destination.


** If you have any HINT of an objection to the use of "harvester" and "heathen" as a wordplay reference to your name then by all means delete this post immediately when (and if) you see it.
Paul Long
165. Caveatar
@161 misbee
Maybe I should take a nap or something ... ::slinks off into a quiet corner::

May I recommend the Bunker? I observed the capture arrival of a gaggle of Keebler's Elves a few moments ago. Have a cookie and feel better.

166. s'rEDIT
@Cav 164: Nice! Very Nice!
Barry T
167. blindillusion
Figured I’d pop in for a brief spell – and a merry hello to the OG and an allow me to introduce myself to those new.

Anyway, regarding such ter’angreal as the FHM and the twisted stone ring, particularly in lieu of the discussion above that the FHM was created by the True Power: After listening to ToM again and hearing Elayne think about the medallion, I’m starting to wonder if such powerful ter’angreal, namely those which allow for spectacular abilities without the need to channel, weren’t created by combining the two halves of the One Power. This could have been thought of before and I’m drawing a blank…or it could have been discussed since life got in the way and I’ve stepped away from the re-read. And as I also cannot recall all the data available about there, meh, perhaps I’m just mumbling into the breeze.

Chris Chaplain
168. chaplainchris1
Lots of good conversation. Some of it, unfortunately, about the complaints about the AMOL release date. I think it's all been covered well, though, so I only wish to reiterate that my comments earlier in the thread were regarding those who *complained* about the release date (as distinct from expressing disappointment) and who launched ad hominem attacks against the folks responsible for carrying on Jordan's legacy.

And as an aside, I quite agree that many of the middle/late books could have been cut down quite a bit. But as Tolkien said, some tales grow in the telling. I too wonder if the marked change in tone/style/urgency after the first three books reflected the success of those early books...but I suspect having proven he could be successful at selling books gave Jordan the leisure to expand his story somewhat, letting it breathe more and have room to, well, sprawl somewhat. This has, at times, given us plotlines that seemed to plod (with doom), and endless dress and bath descriptions, with much sniffing and braid pulling and harrangues about thinking with chest hair and all the rest.

But...honestly, now...are there any WOT books you wish you'd never read? Not for me. Even COT, annoying at the time, became fun again once I could read it back to back with the next installment.

For me, the whole WOT journey has been fantastic, and my disappointment that the book is gonna wait until 2013 is more than tempered by my gratitude that I'll (good Lord willing and the creek don't rise) get to read it, and my gratitude for the journey thus far. It’s been worth much more than I've paid for it - even counting the audiobooks, and not neglecting this forum and reread, for which I pay zip zilch nada nothing, thank you - and the sad/nostalgic thought of the ride finally being over.

Actually, the re-read has caused a change in my reading behavior. With most highly anticipated new books, I devour them quickly for the first half, and then make concerted efforts (which usually fail) to slow down and stretch the process out into a couple of days, just to savor the new book for a bit. With TGS and TOM, I didn’t do that. I was reluctant to actually finish them, but eager to come talk about them with the reread community – to see Leigh’s spoilery reviews, and discuss my reactions with all of you.

I don’t know what I’ll do with AMOL once I finally get my hands on it. Hurry to finish and come chat with you all? Or savor the once and for all really truly that’s all folks last WOT book?
Sam Mickel
169. Samadai
Caveatar @ 164.

That was Awesome, you shine with a soul of a poet *applauds loudly*
Chin Bawambi
170. bawambi
Just a couple of quickies on the way to 2hunny. Cave @ 141 any chance you could white out the one line re: end of Dark Tower. Susanne has an excellent first read going and I'm not sure if she posts on this re-read or not. Sub - 23 second excitation FTW. Where's a pontoon boat when you need one?
Ron Garrison
171. Man-0-Manetheran
Freelancer @ 153 re. 54
“and who's to tell the difference” Good one!
Martyna Berek
172. missbee
Cav @ 164 - Ahhh, I feel all soothed now.
Thank you for tour kind invitation. And cookies too? I'll be right over.
Chris Chaplain
173. chaplainchris1
Re: where the Seanchan get ter’angreal, they do control an entire continent. Randland (i.e. the main portion of the world) had several major stashes besides what had been brought to the White Tower – Rhuidean, The Stone of Tear, the Panarch’s Palace in Tarabon, the cache in the Rahad in Ebou Dar. That last, it seems, was unknown to anyone in this Age outside the Kin – but Sammael and Moghedien heard about it.

So it seems likely that there could have been caches of *angreal on the Seanchan continent, as well, and the Seanchan have had centuries to locate them as they subjugated the place and brought all channelers under their control. They could well have access to lots more than we’ve seen. That’s apart from Ishamael’s huge (and previously unsuspected, at least by me, and hugely scary) stash of *angreal revealed in TOM.
174. yasiru89
Tuon believes in what she's doing (regardless whether she's right), both from a moral standpoint and from a conviction (thanks to likely tampered prophecies) that hers is the true path. That's why she doesn't cave to the easier path despite knowing things can, and probably will, get a lot worse due to her actions. Because more is at stake.
The world would be worse for conflict-fearing cowards ruling everywhere, whatever one thinks on being moved by the more visceral aspects of war, because all it takes then is for a single bold party to compromise the entire landscape, and that with absurd ease.

The Seanchan aren't Tairens (whose ter'angreal stash gives this an added touch of irony)- their 'attitude towards the Power' isn't one of shunning it, but having absolute control over it (by having absolute control over those who can directly control it). So Leigh's misgivings about the Bloodknife ter'angreal are entirely unfounded (or just terribly misplaced).

It occurs to me that Verin may be trying to instill in Mat a sense of duty and destiny with her story, whether true or not, perhaps in an effort to ensure that he reads the letter. Unfortunately she underestimates Mat (something Mat generally has going for him- others underestimating him that is) and here we have Verin's greatest mistake.
Paul Long
176. Caveatar
@ 170. bawambi
Done and done. Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't know about the reread.

@ 166. s'rEDIT
Thank you very much.
(Attemping to imitate Elvis' statement. If you ever heard it I am sure you can imagine it. :D )

@169. Samadai
" soul of a poet"

"Awww, shucks folks. I'm speechless. " :The Cowardly Lion in Wizard of Oz.

Poet? As to writing poems and other prose:
I admit that I have perpetrated that very crime, commited that sin, and shamelessly let others see it on a couple of hundred occasions but I haven't been arrested for it yet. :D
I have even been aided and abetted in this crime by others who have had some of them published in newspapers and various other organs of publication.
One of my crimes is even engraved in marble, the footstone at the grave of my ex brother-in-law, at the insistence of his wife. Thus the evidence remains until the statute of limitations on this particular crime runs out.
(Hopefully) lol

She even had my name engraved on it though I asked her not to include it. She thought it was modesty but I simply wanted to hide the evidence, just in case.

I am glad and much pleased if and when you enjoy something that I post and apologise for any unwitting offense.
The Wetlander Ditty was a 'witting offense'. No apology.
I have derived much enjoyment in reading the posts and I am very thankful to the posters here.
I learn a lot about a lot of things and I spend an inordinate amount of time reading here.
(Inordinate for a normal person. I am retired and living alone in the Nevada desert in a small community and have absolutely nothing that I have to do. Ahhh. Wonderful freedom. That isn't really bad because I live about 600 feet from a small Casino, Bar, Restuarant, et cet)

172. missbee
"Ahhh, I feel all soothed now. Thank you for tour kind invitation. And cookies too? I'll be right over."

On your way over, if you happen to spot a source of "s'mors" pick up a bushel or a barrel of them. I will pay you back when you get here. Just don't mug any Girl Scouts. That isn't nice no matter how tempting the cookies might be. :D

Thanks to all for the kind words regarding my attempts at humor.

Paul Long
177. Caveatar
@168 Chaplainchris1 and 175 Up2stuff

I admire both of these your posts. Very good.

Paul Long
178. Caveatar
I need assistance.
When I replied to some posts I copied and pasted the post number and the poster's name and I think that probably was read as a link and that
or something caused my post to be flagged as spam.

Silly me didn't save a copy and it took me quite a while to edit the multiple responses to a coherent form.

What should I do to recover it if possible?
Just wait for the thing to be reviewed?
I don't know if I can reconstruct it.
Anyone who knows?

Kimani Rogers
179. KiManiak
Hi Caveatar,

When this happened to me awhile ago, I submitted a message to the moderator (Torie, at the time) in their shoutbox on their user profile. Maybe try doing that with TnH?

Also, TnH does review these pages in her role as moderator from time to time, so she will probably read your comment@178 eventually and see what can be done. I guess you could even "flag" your comment, if you want to draw attention to it more quickly. However, I don't know if that constitutes a misuse of the "flag" option or not.

Worst case scenario, your post maybe lost in spamville for all eternity. I know that some of us compose some of our larger posts on Word or another platform and then cut and paste it into the comment box when complete. That may be an option you could explore in the future. Especially as you create those great poems and songs. I'm looking forward to the next time you hook us up! :-)

Sorry, man; it does suck when that happens.
Paul Long
180. Caveatar
@179 KiManiak

Thank you.
I found the shout box and asked about getting it through customs :D
I will wait for a while so I don't repost and then the original get posted and then I would be more confused than usual.

Also thank you for your very kind comment :
"Especially as you create those great poems and songs. I'm looking forward to the next time you hook us up! :-)"
That is very gratifying.

Cameron Tucker
181. Loialson
Point valid, noted, and warmly accepted. I can get behind that reasoning for realeasing an ebook form of From the Two Rivers.

Oh, and I'm blue now? How nice :). Red, black, blue, this re-read is the best kind of injury, I love it so.

Next questions I was thinking of asking Brandon, out of my rereading tFoH right now:
When in the narrative/in what book did Mesaana replace Danelle?

Are there any darkfriends in the Band of the Red Hand?
Paul Long
182. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Bill Stusser
183. billiam
This is a response to those who think that analyzing or deconstructing a story ruins one's enjoyment of said story.

It is just something that I do with just about everything; movies, books, art, etc. It doesn't ruin the work for me at all, as a matter of fact it makes it more enjoyable, to me.

I have been known to be watching a movie and say something like, "Oh my god, that was an amazing tracking shot, and in slo-mo too!", to which my ex-wife would always reply, "Can't you just watch a movie and enjoy it without tearing it apart?".

Well, I guess I can't. Its just something I do, and yes, that includes guessing whether RJ or BS wrote something.

But you know what? It helps me understand the things I read and watch better. I pick things up on a first read that many people don't see on a second or third read. Many of the movies that I was apparently ruining by tearing it apart shot by shot, I ended up having to explain to my ex.

I totally understand why people would be upset with someone else for attributing everything that sucks in WoT to BS, because that is unfair to an awesome author. But I just don't understand how being critical or deconstucting something automatically ruins a work.

Anyways, that's my two cents worth, YMMV.
It doesn't ruin it for you, but it ruins the experience for everyone else.

Charles Gaston
185. parrothead
It doesn't ruin it for me; if anything it enhances my appreciation. The degree of which depends on what is being analyzed, of course.
Paul Long
186. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Roger Powell
187. forkroot
Personally, I like to "just read" a series the first time through, then do the deeper analysis on a re-read. Good heavens , if I had stopped and parsed everything in Rothfuss' Name of the Wind, I'd still be reading it. Instead, I enjoyed it thoroughly and will (in due time) do a reread -- informed and enlighted by Jo Walton's excellent reread, no doubt!

Hey stranger! Good to hear from you! We've heard some recent peeps from Misfortuona (she really should have posted for this Chapter IMO!), Empress Maude, sarcastro, gagecreedlives and other oldtimers. Nice to hear from some of the alumni :-)
Anthony Pero
188. anthonypero
billiam, I have no problem with deconstructing and critiquing. It's complaining about the current author ruining the series (which a lot of the "critiquing" comes off as) that bothers me... most especially since we have no evidence who wrote what.

It's the posts that basically attribute something shaky to Brandon, simply because its shaky, that bother me. As I've stated before, according to Brandon's blog and twitter. Rj left a whole chunk of tGS and ToM already written... in first draft form. First draft form is generally not very polished for any author. It is just as likely that a contradiction, anachronistic term, or other "voice" changes that we hear/see/perceive cam from RJs unpolished prose as from Brandon's polished prose.

That's it. I'm done talking about it now. :)
Jeff Schweer
189. JeffS.
Billiam @183
I posted on this on Tuesday but your post allows a second look.
I had posted that some like to deconstruct and it doesn't always work for me. I understand why some people need to do that. My college age daughter is very deconstructional when watching or commenting on something she reads. She has to! It is totally part of who she is and the way she approaches her own writing and art.

We all have a different way of looking at things and those differences make these discussions worthwhile. So no, it doesn't bother me either and to be totally truthfull, I'm lazy, so if someone else has gone to the trouble of really digging down for insights, I'll happily enjoy the fruits of that labor.

Um, Thanks then...

Edited to add. If we didn't have such a wide variety of viewpoints, this reread would be really boring and we'd all be doing something else.
Cynthia Ahmar
190. tenkuu
Wortmauer@24: Except, what other than a ter'angreal can randomly kill you by draining the life out of you? Myself, I believe that a ter'angreal is any object utilizing the One Power that isn't an angreal, and it's also known that although ter'angreal are created by channelers, some can be used by non-channelers. I don't think the rings are anything anymore complicated than that, really. So yes, they definitely do use the One Power, but don't require someone channeling to work.

chaplainchris1@25: Perhaps "revealing" would only happen once Mat actually read the letter? Thereby she would be able to write all her letters long in advance and hand them all out, but would require the recipients not to read them immediately.

Jeribai@76: Considering that Mat has been avoiding Rand as much as he can, I'd think it's safe to say he knows *exactly* what the taint is and what it does.

Loialson@80: What exactly is in this "pro-prologue"? I've only done a single readthrough of the series so far (gonna start a second in a few weeks) and I never bought any other edition than the original paperback.

On the subject of the release of the next book, I'm still young, but if I should happen to die in some accident or whatever before then, I will haunt one of you to be able to read it. Fair warning. :P
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
191. tnh
Caveatar @178:
I need assistance. When I replied to some posts I copied and pasted the post number and the poster's name and I think that probably was read as a link and that or something caused my post to be flagged as spam. Silly me didn't save a copy and it took me quite a while to edit the multiple responses to a coherent form. What should I do to recover it if possible? Just wait for the thing to be reviewed? I don't know if I can reconstruct it. Anyone who knows?
I know, and the news isn't good. Your comment isn't in the "unpublished" queue. It's gone. I'm sorry. The commenting system ate it. It's done that to me too, on occasion. I can't say I took it calmly.

If you can give me a step-by-step description of what happened, I can pass it on. However, that's not what you should do next.

There is a general solution to the problem of irretrievably lost text: sit down and immediately write it out again from memory. Don't wait. You'll never have more of it in your head than you have now.

This method actually works. I've used it, as have various writers I know. T. E. Lawrence and Thomas Carlyle both salvaged entire books that way.

When you're done with that, send me a description of the glitch and how it happened.
Paul Long
192. Caveatar
@191 tnh
Okay. Thanks. It wasn't notable or important but involved a sequence of replies to different comments in one post.
Rather than typing the "@191 thn" for example I highlighted, copied and pasted them into the editor window.

Those nicks are links and there were 4 or 5 of them and I assume that link aspect to be the cause of the message "your comment has been flagged as spam" or some such. I don't remember the exact wording.
I could have reposted it but I didn't want to repost and then have the original appear later.
No big deal.
I will reread and reanswer the comments later.
Thank you for your effort.

I assume you didn't take offense at my wordplay in @164.


EDIT: WTH? It showed up! It is now post number 176.
I assume some automatic handler passed it through 'customs' and it was then posted. Whew. I am glad I re-read the thread before attempting reconstruction. Though it might have been interesting to compare the two. Probably like differences between the styles of RJ and BS. Just kidding. Don't beat me up. :D

Cameron Tucker
193. Loialson

There was nothing earth-shattering in the new prologue. Just an Egwene viewpoint from when she was a child, if I recall correctly. She notices a raven watching her eerily.

I guess the point was a tie in to the point that the shadow had started to zero in on where the Dragon Reborn might be at that time.
Paul Long
194. Caveatar
I have been reconsidering my disappointment at the delay of AMOL.
I tender my thanks to many people.

I recall when Mr. Rigney passed away. I was stunned and saddened
at the news even though we all knew it was coming. It comes to all of us
but some deaths affect us more than others.
I also thought (using RJ's own words) "May the last embrace of the Mother welcome you home." Foolish, yes. But I did think it.

My second thought was that the Wheel of Time was Broken, Chaos had won and the series was dead.
Just like the Munchkins said in "The Wizard of Oz, "She isn't only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead."
RJ's Magnum Opus. His Master's Piece would not be finished, as Perrin finished his. Perrin and his Master's Piece being a creation of the same RJ.

(I was raised, from 7 to 17 years old, in a blacksmith shop. My father was a blacksmith and farrier. RJ got it right. Even down to the mannerisms of the flipping smith where he got his hammer to go with his axe. That IS how a blacksmith would act. Those ARE the right names for the tools and that IS how metal is tempered.
RJ was amazing with those small details. No wonder I like WoT so much.)

Then I heard the news that Brandon Sanderson was going to finish the series.
I was joyful at the news.

I immediately thought about Wesley in The Princess Bride and Miracle Max checking him out and announcing, "He (the book in this case) is only MOSTLY dead. "
Yippie. A miracle was about to occur with the books. (Brandon being Miracle Max.)
Inigo rushes Miracle Max to heal Wesley and Max says
"Don't rush me. You rush a Miracle Man and what do you get? You get Rotten Miracles, thats what you get."
I think probably Brandon was rushed but I don't consider his miracle so far to be rotten nor do I expect his future work to be. I love his work on W0T. I am just hungry for the resolution. Not the end, the resolution.

I hereby tender my thanks to "Brandon 'Miracle Max' Sanderson for his efforts.
Sanderson can't be paid too much for what he has done.
Harriet and Team Jordan can't be paid too much for their efforts.
Tor can't possibly make too much profit on the books.
At one cent per hour of enjoyment of these books I would owe a LOT of money.
I would also owe a lot to the Re-read, to Leigh, to Tor and to all involved in publishing the books and running the websites dedicated to WoT.
The Thirteenth Depository alone would be worth a fortune in information.
I would owe, but never consider paying, many of the posters on here for the information they have supplied that I had overlooked.

Thank you RJ, Harriet, Brandon, Team Jordan, Leigh and everyone who has helped make WoT such a memorable and enjoyable experience.
As my dad told me when I had (finally) tempered my first chisel so it would cut damned near anything and not shatter,(it has to be Strong and not Hard just like RJ said that Caddy and Sorilea said), I now say to you what he said to me. The highest praise he could give me.

"You done good. I am proud of you."

Jonathan Levy
195. JonathanLevy
55. anthonypero
@JL: Actually, one of your quotes proves that Mat knows and understands the difference between the two halves... in fact, it's probably what gives him reason to learn the difference:
If you re-read my comment you'll see that I explicitly stated that Mat knows the difference between saidar and saidin. My point was never that he doesn't know the difference. My point was that channelers and non-channelers think and speak of the One Power in different ways, using different terms in different contexts. You'll notice that Mat only thinks 'saidar' when he's making a distinction between saidar and saidin. When he chastises Nynave/Elayne/Egwene for having channeled at him, he doesn't use 'saidar', he uses 'one power'.

It's an interesting question whether Jordan was consistent with this usage over all of his books; but even the limited results which a hort examination of LoC can yield are a testament to RJ's attention to detail. It's mind-boggling to think how deep inside his characters' heads Jordan was - for the author and the readers 'One Power', 'True Source', 'Saidar/Saidin' are equivalent and interchangeable. But for the characters they aren't. It's pretty impressive.
Anthony Pero
196. anthonypero
Logically, it makes no sense for people to think of one word, but consistently say another word, without some reason. And since that reason would have to be in-universe, and explanation would be in order if it was intentional. The fact that it always happens that way in your sampling may simply be a function of authorial fiat, or copy editing, or simply chance.

Simply saying that the fact that Mat has never said sai'dar out loud before doesn't mean he never would. And since he has at least thought the term before, way back in LoC, its reasonable for him to use the word, especially in such a cavalier fashion mean to rile someone up, in tGS.
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
197. tnh
Caveatar @192: WTF indeed, since it wasn't showing up in the message base at all when I checked late last night.

On the whole, I prefer mysterious glitches that reinstate comments to ones that eat them.
Irene Gallo
198. Irene
Caveatar, TNH, Sorry! I pushed the "publish" button on the comment late last night.

Cavetar - i assume you flagged your "help" comment. That helped bring it too attention.
Tess Laird
199. thewindrose
It would be a riot if tnh got 1 2 hunny;)

Caveatar - It is amazing how in depth RJ got with his characters. One of the reasons I reread WoT.

Cumadrin - I checked out your link on the last thread - that is very impressive for something you did in high school! It reminds me of a long time ago, when my dad brought home a computer from work and told me I could create games or very simplistic graphics. I believe it had a green screen, and I had to do eveything in DOS. Back then I really had a thing for Zelazny - so I had a story back drop of that. And I was also taking some Spanish at the time - I remember using names with that influence. I know I printed it out - I wonder if my parents saved it:)


Edit for - I mention 1 above - it should be 2 - hey and I work with numbers - maybe I should go home...***The Market Flash Crash of 2.24.12 started in MN, SEC officials determine...
James Hogan
200. Sonofthunder
And this is why I attempt never to have links in my comments...I'm too afraid of my comment disappearing forever. Happy ending to this one!!

And hmm, so close to the big 2-00...yet so far.

Oh - in reference to Mat's "saidar'ed it", I think it fits him perfectly. I laughed when I read it, just because it was such a Mat thing to say! He hadn't said it before, but that didn't really bother me. It just seemed to fit.

Also, in terms of being analytical of these non-RJ penned books...I wish I could turn that part of me off sometime and just enjoy the books for what they are - I really do. Sadly though, since I do *know* they're written by a different author, my subconscious mind can't help but pick out certain phrases and words, thinking that RJ wouldn't have used them. But I love these new books all the same. Without Brandon...where would we be? He's truly our Miracle Max! *tips hat to Cav*

EDIT - and hello! Looks like 200 is mine after all! Victorious!!
Chris R
201. up2stuff
For the record, I do have my own opinions of disappointment that we are not getting our final installment until 2013. In fact, I am one of the less informed in that I was still looking for a Spring/Summer 2012 release (I had NOT seen the updates of the November release). That said, I am not an author, editor, or publisher and would not presume that I know a fig more about publishing this book than the ones actually doing the work. They have delivered 13 awsome novels. For whatever reasons, they have the experience and I trust them when they say, if they need until January, then they need until January.

Furthermore, I fully concede that there are moments when the story or characters feel a little "off". I understand how a turn of phrase, or an unexpected viewpoint can be distracting or even downright disruptive to the story. I have commented on a few of these myself, and do not begrudge anyone else the opportunity to do so in a THOUGHTFUL and RESPECTFUL manner.

What does bother me is the way some choose to be insulting about the differences. The loudest complaints seem to be by those fans that were not capable of realizing that with a new author at the helm there would be some differences whether or not BWS had decided to try and emulate RJ or not. Two different people, with two different lives, from 2 different periods of American Society (RJ was what, 20-30 years older, an entire lifetime older than BWS) writing parts of the same story. They expected the story to unfold in exactly the same manner, with the same exact tone? REALLY?

No. Sanderson and Team Jordan were clear. There would be differences. Expect them. Prepare for them. Encounter them. DEAL WITH THEM. Move on. Most importantly, ENJOY THE STORY! Constructive Criticism is a useful developemental tool for honing skills and maximizing practice. It is necessary to develope one's craft, but whiny complaints just make the one voicing them look ingnorant and too chicken to try themselves.

Thanks for humoring me friends, and sorry for the rant. With maybe one exception, I know everyone on this thread understands the difference, and I haven't been back the TTTSNBN in a few days, so perhaps it has died down too, but I just had to vent a little frustration over some disrespectful people who should really know better.


Oh, and my favorite statement regarding this whole release date thing thus far is "Team Jordan is NOT your bitch." LOVE IT!!!.

Damn, so close to the 2 Hunny! Hats off Son of Thunder.
Anthony Pero
202. anthonypero
2.02 hunny!

What? I want some hunny too! I'll just have to start making up my own, I guess... ;)
Paul Long
203. Caveatar
@197 tnh
I prefer the reinstate thing too.
Thank you for your attention.

@198 Irene .
Yes I did flag the 'help request' thingy at the risk of misusing it.
KiManiak pointed that possibility out to me. I hadn't even noticed the flag button before.

Come to think of it, a similar thing happened with my broadband modem the other day.
I had pulled it out of the usb port and laid it on the desk in front of my keyboard for some reason.
Then tried to get on line...Not Connected...Clicked Connect....No device available...Saw modem socket empty....looked for modem...searched through EVERYTHING on the desk...NO MODEM......Looked through the place, checked pockets, NO MODEM.
Got disgusted, fixed cup of coffee. Brought the coffee back to the desk and set it down ON TOP OF THE ^%$ MODEM!, nearly spilling the coffee.
The only explanation I can come up with is either a mental blind spot which refused to see the thing or the proximity of 4 computers on that desk. Computers cause strange things to happen.
I will blame it on that anyway. I can't blame the 'single sock eating' washing machine.
Anyway, thank you both.

Bill Stusser
204. billiam
Really ZEXXES? You speak for everyone else? Really?
Dawn Boyall
205. deebee
When I first read TGS there were a few places where I did a real double-take, just felt stopped in my tracks over an incident or an aspect of characterisation. So I talked to other WOTfans, asked what they thought.
No-one had noticed a damn thing. It was me, not the story.

And now, I wonder what would have happened if I didn`t know Brandon had taken over. Maybe nothing would have stood out.
If I were suddenly diagnosed with some serious disease I guess every twinge and itch would seem like a symptom. Sometimes you just look at things differently when you know there`s something different about the situation.

So while I don`t have a problem with analysing any differences between the two writers, I try to bear in mind that some things are only in my head.
Brandon, it`s not you, often it`s us.
206. MasterAlThor

Alumni huh? Ok I can roll with that.

Glad to see you back.

Well this chapter was kinda meh for me. I love only one part..."Saidared". I was laughing so hard my wife asked me what's wrong. My 5 year old runs into the room and jumps on me cause he thinks it's play time.

I explained to my wife that changing nouns into verbs is the wave of the future. I told my son to get back in the corner and finish polishing my sword. Well I didn't really tell him that, it was more like "if you don't run daddy is going to get you!"

Paul Long
207. Caveatar
@199 Thewindrose
".***The Market Flash Crash of 2.24.12 started in MN, SEC officials determine..."
Hesitates, Realise I don't own any stock.

"It is amazing how in depth RJ got with his characters. One of the reasons I reread WoT."
Likewise. I notice something new EVERY time I reread.
My latest "wth? moment is about Rand's Epiphany on Dragonmount.

Bear with me for a moment here.
The critical moment in the entire series took place there. One slip and old Pattern would have been bleached the hell out of existence.
Rereading that, the description of where he was standing, the peak of the mountain 'upthrusting like a broken fingernail'......

and the image of the Dragonmount blurred in my mind to the image of the Tor company logo. Check it out. A shield with a starry sky above a friggin mountain peak.A TOR!
The bloody Dragon is having his epiphany standing on a bloody TOR.
Easy to see a pun of opportunity by RJ at this point. That is if he had not planned it from the first time he contracted the series.
I wouldn't be at all suprised if he did that on purpose with a smirk on his face when he plotted, named and wrote it!
If so, then once again, "Me 'ats orf to the DUKE!"

If my suspicion is correct then I pity who the hell ever took on "the Iceman" in combat.They didn't have a chance.
Even if it was accidental I think it is a damned good accident.

@201 up2stuff
Well said! "Thoughtful and respectful" does wonders.

Just curious. What stuff are you up 2?
Planning? Plotting? Possibly Scheming?
Something nefarious and questionable?
If so share the outcome with us, will you?

@200 Sonofthunder
"Without Brandon...where would we be? He's truly our Miracle Max! *tips hat to Cav*"

Up that notoriously infamous creek without a paddle an author.
*Returns hat tip*

208. Freelancer
@Blind ~ Hey! (Big wave from the left coast) You've been more scarce of late than I.


I could beg, and wish, and crave a shred of the creativity you possess with such seeming ease, but the truth would remain that I am simply envious. And that, as a foundation, is why I don't ever wish to deconstruct, debunk, or otherwise endlessly criticize an incredible work like the WoT saga. As you have stated, the intellectual debt owed to Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan is without price, and could never be paid.

Nobody ever wrote a story like this, pulling together and weaving threads of historical, mythical, legenday aspects of a world within which we live each day, into a tapestry so large, so colorful, so thickly textured and detailed. And with the tapestry unfinished, a new hand set to the loom, drawing on a different palette of threads (experiences, skills, and ultimately, vocabulary) to fill out the work that it may be properly complete. Guided by the trusted hand of the Master's widow, the piece is fitting together as a singular whole, and as nearly seamless as could be dreamed by we, the grateful readers.

Thus, a bilious contempt rises up within me at the thought of one who deigns to pull at threads and bemoan an apparent gap in the weave. Ah well, c'est la vie.

I think the term alumnus has an appropriate air to it. So this is the University of the WoT Re-read, headed by Dean Butler.
Barry T
209. blindillusion

Something of a matter of semantics, correct? I mean, Mat didn’t use the word “saidar”. He took a noun he knew and turned it into a verb. I suppose he could have said, “I figured you... you know, it.” Of course, this somewhat takes away from the humor of the situation in that we already know Mat was playing off Verin’s act. Simply seems in character for Mat.

Paul Long
210. Caveatar
@ 208 Freelancer

Boy! Am I redfaced.
(Image of an embarrased little boy standing in front of a teacher who has complimented his schoolwork, looking at the ground and scuffing his toe in the gravel. )

Your statement about 'envy', 'creativity' is the second best compliment I can remember.
The only one to outdo it was my dad's
"You done good. I am proud of you."

Thank you for that.

To your post. Great.

Are you an editor or do you work on a newspaper or magazine?
Your post reads like a professional recap/essay by a very experienced writer. Not a word or phrase wasted. No need for you to envy anyone.

Thank you


EDIT to add:

Whoa. Took the slowed down rereading to notice your phrasing.
"...one who deigns to pull at threads..."

Was that an intentional pun referencing both the 'threads of the pattern" and "the threads of the forums" as well as the unraveling of a woven cloth by 'pulling at threads' ?? Triple play!
If it was intentional I LOVE it.
If it wasn't or if it was subconscious, hell , I STILL love it.
Thus doth Jordan make punners of us all. :D :D

And quite in character or in-universe when referencing anything WoT.
Sorry I missed it the first time.

Lynn McDonald
211. meal6225
@164 Cav In my head I will no longer queary "let's check the reread"
it is forever now "let's check the garden". Thanks
Every garden needs bugs-- where's Insectoid? 54 better not have smashed him...
Paul Long
212. Caveatar
@211 meal6225
Be careful of the shrinking violets. They are very shy. :D

Insectoid is probably buzzing about some other buzziness.
Maybe looking for some hunny? (like 1 hunny and so forth?)
Strange isn't it that, without some insects, some plants could not survive. Or maybe not strange at all. Just my limited grasp of things.

Sam Mickel
213. Samadai
I think the term alumnus has an appropriate air to it. So this is the University of the WoT Re-read, headed by Dean Butler.

I wonder what that makes me? Well, one things for certain, at least I am not the only geek in class anymore. ;D Now I am one of the normal ones. LOL
Eric Hughes
214. CireNaes

If I recall correctly, Free works in a lab. Something about lasers, sharks, and chin straps. Do sharks have chins? You decide!
Paul Long
215. Caveatar
@214 CireNaes
Thanks for the reply.
The lab work would explain the deft clarity of her Freelancer's post.

"Lasers, and chin straps and sharks! Oh MY!"
(Dorothy and friends. On the road to Oz)

I believe the frill shark or some such has a more pronounced chin than most others. Others usually have more of an undershot jaw.
I can't imagine the combination of lasers, sharks and chin straps.

"What do you get when you put a chinstrap on a shark and shine a laser in his eyes?"
"A pissed off shark?"

Maybe she Freelancer will share information with us.

Edit for typos
Edit for gender confusion.
Thanks CireNaes
Eric Hughes
216. CireNaes

He works in the field of industrial lasers. Gender confusion FTW! LOL! See Wet. You're not alone! Another charming feature of our WoT reread conglomerate.

Edit: for grammar.
Eric Hughes
217. CireNaes
Perhaps I should have made a Real Genius reference instead. You have a youthful soul evinced by your writing style. Thought you might have seen Austin Powers.

Edit: for spelling. I'm on a roll!
@To all who "don't mind at all"

Lets get something reeeeeal clear here.

1. If I didn't like re-reads, uhhh, why would I be here participating in one?

2. If I didn't like criticism, why would I write one single post here on this re-read blog?

3. If I didn't like criticism, why would I enjoy reading a critique of RJ's and BWS's? Which is essentially what a Re-read is as far as Leigh's Commentary is concerned. Or at least she reserves that right as the Author of the Blog. And with her it's always with great respect for the Works and there Authors and if not it's usually with comedic intent.

4. My point has never been that one should refrain from criticizing. Mine has always been to use thoughtful restraint as not to ruin the experience of the re-read for people who might not see it your way.

5. I realize there is a Faction of commentors who believe that one should be able to say whatever they want as long as it is not aggressive or inappropiate in nature. But there are ways to get around that and those within that faction have maid it quite apparent that regardless of whether some feel uncomfortable about it, their intent is to do "it" whenever there is the slightest opportunity.

And so I have made it a point to call them out any chance I get and will continue to do so as long as they continue to commit to what I deem to be reprehensible and annoying behavior. I'm not the only one who feels this way about this particular brand of criticism so you can try to make it seem I'm the only one with a problem with "it" all you want.

I will continue to have BWS's back. Whether I know the bloke or not. Those lacking the where with all to understand that kind of honor bearing, just won't get it no matter what I do or say regardless.

Hugh Arai
219. HArai
Zexxes@218: I don't have a side in this latest spat, and I don't intend to take one. That said, claiming those who disagree with you just don't have enough honor to understand you is a weak, weak argument. You've made far better ones before and hopefully will in the future too.
Alice Arneson
220. Wetlandernw
Wow! It's only Friday, and we're already past 200 again! This is really cool - old friends coming back, new ones joining in, and off goes the roller-coaster again. ;) Sadly for me, I'm just barely managing to catch up on the posts, with scant time to comment. RL snuck up and bit me, and doesn't show any signs of letting up until...well, Sunday night, if I'm lucky, and next Friday if I'm not.

Speaking of old friends, though, I have to throw in one quick grin at travyl for her quotes on the previous thread - I'd almost forgotten the Scary Lady context, though I've used the name occasionally. Thanks for the laugh! I needed it. To be perfectly honest, though, I'm not sure which had me laughing harder: the recollection itself, the idea of me scaring the Fifester away from anything, or imagining the look on his face at the suggestion!

::wipes away tears of laughter all over again::

I do miss that man around here, even though he could (and did) take the mickey out of me on a regular basis. Sadly, his own work has kept him away from us far too long. As he said a few months ago, "I'm actually just so busy with my own writing, blogging, being a father, healing computers, and rickrollin' the innocent I can't stop in the bunker for cookies anymore. Sad admission, I really haven't even had a chance to keep up with Leigh's posts, and that makes me a sad panda with far too little snark and headdesking in his life."

No, I didn't scare him away, even if I did "scure" him back then. (As if!) He was a full participant for many, many months after that event.

And... *sigh* ... I have to run, and I didn't even say anything substantive about either the book or the comments. Sorry, folks. Big waves to those of you who have been noticable by your absence around here - you know who you are. Get back in the bunker where you belong! :) I'll try to come up with something actually worth reading later tonight after dishes are done and kids in bed.
Alice Arneson
221. Wetlandernw
Drat. The double-post whammy got me. Really, I'm not trying that hard to get to 300.

I'll give you this instead.
Anthony Pero
222. anthonypero
The double post monster is back again... why couldn't that happen on February 2nd?
219. HArai

Look, I'm not speaking to people who disagree with my opinion of the nature of what is or isn't repectful or thoughtful. My meaning is is to say that their are those who feel they have the right to say as the wish within a given set of rules. That said within those rules there lies room for misrepresentation.

There are some hear who believe its ok to go there because the rules say they can. And they are correct. That doesn't change the fact that the behavior is reprehensible. I am simply saying that if they have the right to go there with that brand of critique, then I have the right to critique there critique. As long as they are willing to go there, here within this forum, I will dog them.

And I am stating that they'll never get it. That they won't understand the honor of it. I say this because they either don't understand the lack of honor they have commited to within their brand of critique or they don't want to. But they don't have to.

I know what your gonna say....well they don't have to agree with you. And I'll onlyt say that, before this, I had said nothing that made one uncomfortable. And if I did, I stopped. I have no desire to ruin anothers tranquility for my own gratification. But if they want ruin myself and others enjoyment of this forum, then I will seek to ruin theirs. Its only fair, right?

Just doing whats fair.

Thoughtful, respectful Restraint is all I ask.

Paul Long
224. Caveatar
@220 Wetlandernw

"..RL snuck up and bit me"

Is that your dog? The neighbor's dog. Pet snake?
Husband? :D

Don't send Cadsuane after me. I will behave.

Dawn Boyall
225. deebee
Um, I may be dense here, but I`m not clear what you mean.

When you ask for "thoughtful, respectful restraint" about "it"- you mean you want any discussion of the differences between RJ and
BWS `s writing, characterisation etc to be thoughtful and respectful?
Because I don`t think anyone would disagree with you there.

But it seems like what you`re asking is that people don`t go there because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
In which case that`s not restraint, that`s a no-go zone.
Hugh Arai
226. HArai
"But if they want ruin myself and others enjoyment of this forum, then I will seek to ruin theirs." and "Thoughtful, respectful Restraint is all I ask." are ideas that combine oddly to me.

However, do what you feel called to do.
Alice Arneson
227. Wetlandernw
Z, et al - Re: what people can/should/can't/shouldn't say here... The plain truth is that, as long as they avoid ad hominem attacks and overtly offensive remarks, everyone can say what they want. (It's a free-ish country, after all...) The only restrictions that can be enforced are those set by the moderators anyway, which means that if we really want, we can get into a shouting match over anything at all - at least until the moderator steps in and tells us to get back on topic. Frustrating as it may be at times, it's still the best answer and it still keeps this forum interesting and worth our time.

Sadly (or... maybe not), that means there's really no point in promising that you'll call someone down every time they touch on a topic you don't approve. You can do it, but rather than making your point, you're likely to get the rest of the crew (even the ones who might agree with you) asking you to lighten up, already. By all means, express your disagreement, but at some point you have to let it go.

I've found that, when such a situation arises, a far better approach is usually to just scan a post that looks like it might bug me, and if that's confirmed, I don't waste my time reading it, much less replying to it. Lucky for us all, there's no requirement to read every word that's posted here. (Okay, for some of us OCD types, that's really hard, but it can be done. Promise.) Sometimes we all need to vent, but once that's done, it's much more useful to either drop it or (!!) indulge in an actual conversation about it, if all parties involved are willing. You'd be surprised how much fun those can turn out to be. Sometimes, people even change their minds! :)
John Massey
228. subwoofer
@cav.... grrrrr... don't be blamin' my fellow canines, the butler did it;)

@CireNaes- I was all over the Austin Powers reference- go Canada!- even when Wetlander was talking about ad hominems I was thinking "Dr. Evil". Not that Wet is Dr. Evil or something... er, just that it was mentioned in the movie.

I think what Zexxes is trying to say is that some folks may want to choose their words a little more carefully when criticizing others.

Paul Long
229. Caveatar
@228 Subwoofer
My, what a convincing growl you have grandma uh..Subwoofer.
Do Canadian dogs add an "eh" to the end of their growls and barks?
Woof! Eh? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr eh?

The Butler did it? Leigh Butler? Nah, not her.
The BunkerButler?
Okay, I got it. It was the Butler in the Bunker with the ......damn. I never could play clue.

Ok. I retract my insinuations regarding our fellow furry faced four footed friends.
I will also defend them to the cops.
Officer! It was not them, it was some others who looked like them, they have never been in that town and the witnesses lied!
I missed the Austin Powers reference.
Would you or CirNaes enlighten me please?

230. elliesaurus
WoT Alumni. Ahaha, I've been in the WoT fandom about 11 years, so the term certainly seems appropriate! Started reading them when I was 10, when I first picked up To The Blight in the Barns and Nobles in my local mall. C: I know, I know, it's the second half of the first book, but I DIDN'T know that when I first bought it. I didn't even know there was a first half, let alone 10 more books, when I finished it.

*drowns in nostalgia a little bit*

Re: the usage of differentiating nouns for the Power. I know I opened that discussion with my nitpick, but it is an interesting observation that, for us, the terms saidar/saidin/One Power/True Source are all sort of...interchangeable. We immediately know what's being talked about. But for the past 3000 years of Randland history, only women have been able to channel, so the distinction between the male and female halves of the source wasn't really necessary. Men channeled and went crazy. Women channeled and became Aes Sedai. The fact that the characters have to actually separate the Power into its respective halves is a revolutionary line of thought, one I think we miss, since we are, in effect, living the "history" of the characters.

Just an interesting thought. I'm kind of a history geek. :)
I like "saidared". I use it now instead of the "force ". People are like "what?" and then I get to explain the WoT to them. Sometimes they come back to me and tell me they've started the series and vwahla... new fans!
Kimani Rogers
232. KiManiak
Cave@229: Here you go.

Sharks with frickin lasers!

EDIT: And after that one, this one.
Theresa Gray
233. Terez27
So, you guys know how much I like making theories, and when I think I have a good one I just have to share it with EVERYBODY, so everyone will know if I was right. :p I'm not sure if any of you saw this tweet.
#WoT fans: make sure you're following @torbooks & @IreneGallo if you don't want to miss out on any big #WoTnews...like, oh, next monday...
Pretty sure this is going to be about Michael Whelan doing the cover for AMOL. He was already tagged to do the ebook, and then DKS passed. Which partly explains why the release date was set back a bit more.
Interview: Nov 14th, 1998
TPOD Signing Report - Matthew Hunter (Paraphrased)

Someone asked how chose the cover artist, and we got a nice long spiel with some previously unknown information. Jordan and his wife went through bookstores picking out books based on their (if they liked it) cover art and finding out who did the cover. It came down to two artists, Darrell K. Sweet and Michael Whelan. The deciding factor was that Whelan wants the manuscript to read for a year before he will deliver a cover, and they just couldn't wait that long. They are apparently considering a later reissue of the entire series with different covers, perhaps by Whelan, once it is complete.
This would explain why they were willing to give up the extra sales for the Christmas season, certainly. And I have a feeling they announced the release date first so that angry fans wouldn't insist that they find someone else besides Whelan.

I think it was a really good decision on their part all around. Harriet is the one who has to make the choice, and she was apparently quite involved in choosing an artist in the first place. She knows the shortlist was down to Whelan and DKS, and with Whelan already tagged for the ebook cover, there simply wasn't any other choice that would have done justice to the memories of either DKS or RJ. I personally don't care about cover art very much, but I think it's the only right choice. And I respect that they preempted any fanrage over choosing an artist that comes with a later release date, and honestly, the reasons they gave for pushing it to January were good reasons on their own. But I suspect that Whelan was one of the main factors behind that choice, and despite not caring about cover art, I'm glad they did it.

Assuming they did. That's my theory. :p Obviously I am pretty certain about this one though. I didn't even know that Irene Gallo was the art director for Tor until a few minutes ago. But somehow I have a feeling that Whelan's one-year requirements are not going to be mentioned in the press release, and of course that's smart. And seeing as how they have to have the covers ready before that year is up (he couldn't possibly have read the book before Brandon finished it last month), I also suspect that Whelan was willing to shave off just a slight bit of the time time he usually asks for to make this happen in a way that won't cause the fandom to implode.
Paul Long
234. Caveatar
@232 KiManiak.

Rofl. I now vaguely remember that movie. Minime and such.
Now I wonder if Freelancer really DOES deal with lasers and chinstraps and sharks. No one here would put someone on would they? Nah.

Oh well. It was/is fun no matter how it turns out.

Paul Long
235. Caveatar
@208 Freelancer
"I think the term alumnus has an appropriate air to it. So this is the University of the WoT Re-read, headed by Dean Butler."
Thanks for the new name Freelancer.
That gives me an idea.....
Several minutes pass.....
Several more minutes pass.....
ahhhhh. Draft typed, scanned quickly, all errors missed, prepare to post.
The Treasure of the Ages

On the trail of a great treasure I enquired of many
professionals and had no luck with the professional
Treasure Seekers Union, Local 0001.
(They are a very restrictive organization and don't
like competition so there is only one local hall.)

I finally got a tip from a freelancer.

After having heard the freelancer mention a special place
I went looking and finally arrived at a very Up-to-date
High Tech building with these words above the entrance:

"The University of the WoT Re-read, headed by Dean Butler."

Never having been in such a thing as a University before
I ambled, strolled and moseyed through the gates and went
on inside. No one challenged me so I decided to explore.
I meant to find the great treasure if I could.

Hearing a distant sound of repeated thumping alternating
with a smacking sound I investigated.

I looked into one of the rooms.
It contained several desks and each desk was occupied.
Some strange ritual or exercise was going on.
In unison, the students all beat their heads on their
desks, straightened up and smacked themselves in the face
with their palms.
You know. Like you do to your forehead when you realise you
have been overlooking something obvious.
As they repeated these motions they chanted
"Headdesk, facepalm", "Head Desk, facepalm".

I saw what they were doing immediately. It was intuitively obvious
and I am good at that kind of thing.

They were obviously cracking their foreheads so the ambient
wisdom had a place to enter and then driving the wisdom into
their skulls with the facepalm. A Marvelous solution and much
simpler than hard work and study and years of experience.

Going on down the hall I heard an uproar. A person came out of
a door as though he had an appointment elsewhere and did not
want to be late.
Impeding his progress, I said, "What is happening?"
The guy fidgeted some and said, "Someone told a story about
someone being spanked and the Dean is giving a lecture about it."
I looked in the door and asked, "With a CLUB?"
"When she can find one, Yes. Look, I gotta go!"
He moved on out, doubletime and I continued my investigation
musing on the marvelous generosity of the DEAN giving time
to lecture to those in need of learning. A great place.

Exiting into one of the courtyards I saw some poor guy lying
on his back on the ground with a door atop him. Several
students of the female phylum or genus...

(Wow. Only a few minutes at this University and I was already
absorbing knowledge. I hadn't known those words before!)

...were piling large rocks on the door and crushing the poor
guy with the weight.
They were chanting, "You want to open a door, Macho Man? Open THIS ONE!"
"Ahhh", I thought.
"In training for the Olympics Surviving Getting Crushed Singles event."
Well if he survived the training he should have a good shot at the title.
As I passed by I shouted to him, "GO FOR THE GOLD, GUY!" I am sure he appreciated it even though he didn't reply.

I ducked into an alcove to allow what I thought was a Werewolf to pass.
As he passed I heard him growling with a low growl, sort of like when
you eat gassy food and low in your tummy you get a rumbling growl.
I heard what sounded like "Grrrrrrrr. Woof! Eh?" A Canadian Werewolf
apparently. I thought they had Wendigo up there. Well, if this Werewolf
was any sample the danged Wendigo probably moved out.

I saw a door with a sign which said, "Subwoofer".
Knowledge from this university had already sunk into my brain and I
immediately knew what it meant. A base speaker on a submarine of course. The stuff they use with Sonar. Simple to understand now. They had technical training here too. What a place.

Passing across the grounds I came to the Garden.
The weekly planting had been done a few days before freeing up the Dean, who doubled as Master Gardener here, to attend her Lecture Club or maybe to give her lecture WITH a club. Either way.
Looking around the garden I saw several people.

(Whose nicknames I will not use here due to fear of getting someone after me with a club if I say something wrong. I already baited Sub. :D )

They were all discussing deep subjects, Unscrewing the Inscrutable and Effing with the Ineffable. Wow. What a group.

Having been exposed to Wisdom absorbtion for a while something became clear to me.
They were as varied as the plants, the vegetables, the fruits and the flowers which made up the garden. As varied and (each in their own way), as beautiful.

After a few hours of observing them I realized that I had indeed found
The Treasure of the Ages.
For is not friendship and sharing of mind to mind and soul to soul a treasure?
And has there ever been known a greater one in all the Ages?

Just kidding folks. Having fun while the desert wind blows the tumbleweeds along in the night. Exercising my failing mind.
I hope you don't. (mind).

j p
236. sps49
Terez27 @233-

That would be nice. Whelan seemed to have half of the covers on SFF paperbacks for years, his recent cover for The Way of Kings looks great, and the imminent John Carter movie recalls his covers for the Barsoom books.
Alice Arneson
237. Wetlandernw
Terez - Now there's a theory I really, really, really hope turns out to be right. Good call! :)
Theresa Gray
238. Terez27
sps@236—And DKS did the other half. :D

Wetlander@237—I already suspected they would do this when DKS passed. And then I saw the tweet, and it really disturbed me, because I'm like, what could it possibly be now? lol...so I had to brainstorm and brainstorm until I finally said "oh, duh!" because that's how little I think about things like cover art.
James Hogan
239. Sonofthunder
Terez - oooh, that would be absolutely amazing, if Whelan does end up doing the cover art. Seeing that tweet and that old quote...I'm almost sure you're right. Of course, this means we probably won't see any cover images until December or so, but hey, if it's Whelan, I'm willing to wait. And now I wish Monday was here already(Ok, not really - I'm very much enjoying my weekend here...gorgeous sunny morning here in Scotland!!)
John Massey
240. subwoofer
Yeah... I got a foot of snow outside... I thought the groundhog didn't see his shadow... or saw his shadow... or whichever way means we get an early spring. On the bright side, I get to fire up my snow blower and go do half the neighborhood. Just gotta check out the local city bylaws in regards to how early one can operate noisy equipment on a weekend...

@Cav- that's right, we were innocent... and I'd like to see crime scene dust the place for paw prints then run a match in their computers. Can't prove nuthin';)
I ducked into an alcove to allow what I thought was a Werewolf to pass.
You forgot to add "well groomed" in there somewheres;)

@er... folks in general- I thought the cover for the last book was already done. Not to complain or anything but I like the idea of Wheelan having a clue about the book before he bangs off the cover for the final book of the series... ever. Seems to me(and once again, not knocking a guy after the fact) that was one of the common issues with previous covers is the details were off. In a way I will miss DKS art, I gotta be honest, the cover for TEotW was what got me into the books in the first place.

What really sucks is that I found out that the larger than normal paperback I have been rereading all this time was the first issue for TEotW. I thought there was a hardcover version. So all this time I have been beating the crap out of a rare first edition. Boy do I feel special.... kinda like the time I found out my sister traded all my first run Uncanny X-Mens for my cousin's ... er "collection" of Archie comics.... kinda like the time... gah...

Anthony Pero
241. anthonypero
DKS had finished a draft of the cover before he passed, but Tor didn't approve it (which is not uncommon).
Theresa Gray
242. Terez27
Yeah, here's the link, and the quote:
I’m particularly sad that he was unable to finish Memory of Light, the final book in Robert Jordan’s epic fantasy series the The Wheel of Time. He has been a vital part of this series since its beginning, 25 years ago. I know he was hoping, to the end, to be able to see this epic body of work to its completion.
And from Brandon:
As a side note, people are wondering about the last Wheel of Time cover. Mr. Sweet did finish a concept, which I have seen, but did not finish the entire illustration. No decision has been made yet whether another artist will take this concept and do a final piece according to it, or if the book cover will be scrapped and a new concept done. I will let you know.
So, it's possible Whelan will use DKS's concept, and it's possible he will do something entirely different.
Jay Dauro
243. J.Dauro
And since Whelan was already doing the cover for the ebook, this may mean that both are released on January 8th. (fingers crossed)

I'll buy both (actually all three, since I will also get the audiobook that day.)
Anthony Pero
244. anthonypero
At least you're crossing your fingers and not holding your breath.
Theresa Gray
245. Terez27
Yeah, I wouldn't count on it because of the NYT list thing. I really wish they would just fix that.
Paul Long
246. Caveatar
@240 Subwoofer
I ducked into an alcove to allow what I thought was a Werewolf to pass.
You forgot to add "well groomed" in there somewheres;)

Oh my. My bad. I will correct that mistake oversight.

"I ducked into an alcove
with a sink and mirror and freshened up a bit.
I always try to be well groomed. As I turned about I hesitated
to allow what I thought was a Werewolf to pass.
Correcting lines inserted. :D

Thank you for pointing that out. Another example of why anything written should be reviewed by an editor before publication.
And let me just add that I enjoy your wit and cleverness in your posts.
And I have read all the rereads here to date.

John Massey
247. subwoofer

Perhaps I should rephrase.

At least say the Werewolf had a nice shiny coat.... gmrbmtpht...lead a horse to water..... dang thing won't drink.....

Paul Long
248. Caveatar
@247 Subwoofer

Perhaps I should rephrase.

At least say the Werewolf had a nice shiny coat.... gmrbmtpht...lead a horse to water..... dang thing won't drink.....

Well certainly! That shall be done immediately and forthwith and pretty soon.

"I ducked into an alcove
with a sink and mirror and freshened up a bit. I always try to be well groomed. As I turned about I hesitated
to allow what I thought was a Werewolf to pass.

Possible addition:
"The Werewolf person had a nice shiny coat. Not one of those off the rack cheapo things. This was top of the line in nice shiny coats. I considered mugging him for it because I would sure like to have one like
it. I reconsidered the mugging. This guy had TEETH and CLAWS that could terrorise me to the point that I would start taking back things I hadn't even stolen. "

Or an alternate addition:
"The Werewolf had a nice shiny coat. His own homegrown coat, not something woven and made in South Carolina or the UK or somewhere.
And his homegrown coat was a wellgroomed coat. Like me, he cared about his appearance."

Sub*mitted for approval. (I know, it was an awful thing to do. :D)

Alice Arneson
250. Wetlandernw
Caveatar @235 - Sorry I was too asleep to read this last night, but saving it for morning was probably better. My kids think I've lost it (again!) trying not to snort coffee on the laptop... That was priceless. :) Thanks!
Bonnie Andrews
251. misfortuona
Whoa!!! WTH, I almost mis-sed this chapter. Dog gone it (sorry Sub) that's what I get for letting RL get in the way. SIGH!
Anyway, I assume most of you OG ... btw what a great bunch of new posters we have here now.... are aware of how I feel about Fortuona's rebirth.

I love the name, well I do now anyway. It took me a few times saying it before I got the coolness of it. Then I sort of well appropriated it. :D

As for Fortuona herself... I liked Tuon, she and Mat are my favorite couple in the series... The Empress (may she live forever) is not living up to the promise that I saw for her.
I expected that she would take enough from her time with Mat that she'd at least hesitate before she seized the first opportunity to do something incredibly irritating. You know something like staging an attack on the White Tower, or setting loose kamikaze ninja assassins on the mareth d'amane.

I know, I know Aes Sedai are rabid dogs wolverines in need of collaring, but you would think that after spending weeks in their company she'd have changed her mind.
On the other hand, I guess at least one of them did earn a spanking, and all of them took the opportunity to poke at Mat whenever possible.

There was also the fact that it appeared that without Mat's medallion they would have totally taken over control of the group, and probably gotten them all captured or killed before they ever left the city.

I just don't understand how Tuon hasn't changed her culturally ingrained prejudices about channelers.

Yes I am that confused, and I do have conversations like this in my own head... Don't we all? :P

@Caveatar excellent posts, entertaining prose, and a most enjoyable find as I make my way back into the fold. Welcome!!

A big shout out to my brothers and sisters of the re-read. Hope to see you all in the bunker real soon.
HUGZ y'all!!!

BTW I'm glad that we have a Bunker Butler now, Sufa was looking pretty tired last time I was there, and I know she's been missing R. Fife.

MisFortuona OfTheI'mSoGladToBeBackOnTheRereadAiel
Chris R
252. up2stuff

Seems like that knowledge of Sul'dam being able to LEARN to channel would be held as a "Trade Secret". Much like many White Tower secrets, this may be held from general knowledge, explaining Egeanin's shock at finding out.
Chris R
253. up2stuff
Caveeater, alas, I am not "up2" much of interest. That actually is from my first email account, which was a subaccount of my parents' service. It was my first handle and set up by my dad, back in the few weeks when he knew more about the internet and the "information super-highway" than I did. Since I am not really creative and dont really have a favorite character I identify with, I have never taken the time to come up with anything more hip. Nice to know I could be suspect.

As for your post @150, maybe I am re-raising the same question you have been trying to settle. Now, I copied the part you posted below, so maybe it is out of context somewhat, but it seems to contradict itself.

It seems to say the sul'dam SHOULD be a learner and the damane, a sparker. Follow me here, In order to be part of a link, a sul’dam must have at least the potential to channel. Women who can channel and women with the inborn spark can of course be sul’dam, which is why the Seanchan test for the collar first, to enslave such women as damane, leaving only those who cannot channel without being taught to be sul’dam.

The first line says "potential" to channel. That appears to refer to those will, but have not yet, channeled. Now that could be a sparker who has not yet channeled, but a learner who has not been taught yet would also qualify as a having "potential".

The second part seems to say that the a'dam will leash a sparker who will eventually channel in order to keep them controlled. But what is the difference between a sparker who has not yet SPARKED and a learner who has not yet LEARNED. They BOTH are still at POTENTIAL it seems. Shouldnt it also work on a Learner who has not yet done so as well?

It goes on to say that those who will eventually channel are leashed, to keep only the Learner's as Sul'dam and essentially maintain their...purity? It seams like a Learner would qualify as one who will eventully channel. Does the a'dam actually distinguish between could and will?

I guess I have to look at Channelers as Aes Sedai or Windfinders or Wise Ones who already do or already have learned and Sparkers as different those who have not as yet learned? Maybe I answered my own question, but that seems to be the way to explain the difference. Am I getting it right?

Paul Long
254. Caveatar
@249 Subwoofer
.... mohair....

Boy are you one tough editor. Okay. One more revision.

"I ducked into an alcove
with a sink and mirror and freshened up a bit. I always try to be well groomed. As I turned about I hesitated
to allow what I thought was a Werewolf to pass. Possible addition: "The Werewolf person had a nice shiny coat. Not one of those off the rack cheapo things. This was top of the line in nice shiny coats. I considered mugging him for it because I would sure like to have one like it. I reconsidered the mugging. This guy had TEETH and CLAWS that could terrorise me to the point that I would start taking back things I hadn't even stolen. " Or an alternate addition: "The Werewolf had a nice shiny coat. His own homegrown coat, not something woven and made in South Carolina or the UK or somewhere. And his homegrown coat was a wellgroomed coat. Like me, he cared about his appearance."

Trial solution:
"The homegrown coat of the well groomed Werewolf was plush.
He certainly had no need of any mo' hair.
A single trip to the barber, or the vet, or the shearers would have netted enough hair to outfit an entire monastery with hair shirts. "

Okay I Sub*mit to Sub's mitts this latest revision for his approval.
(Can you imagine this exchange taking place between an author and his editor, on paper, using the post office. Hell, if Jules Verne's "Time Machine" had been handled that way the danged Time Machine would have blown a fuse. No wonder RJ did twelve drafts/rewrites.)

With great enjoyment in my heart, I might add. I am having fun!"

John Massey
255. subwoofer
.... and this, folks, is an example of why AMoL is being pushed back to its current release date... ;)

Paul Long
256. Caveatar
@253 up2stuff

The following plus the entire article 'a'dam' on thirteenth depository
tells a lot.
The following is the key part I think.


In order to be part of a link, a sul’dam must have at least the
potential to channel.
Women who can channel and women with the inborn spark can of course be sul’dam,
which is why the Seanchan test for the collar first,
to enslave such women as damane,
leaving only those who cannot channel without being taught to be sul’dam.
All channeling souls can be taught to channel or learn on their own.
The seanchan knowingly COLLAR those who can't control it.

I think at least the Government, Suldam and Damane are well aware of the situation.

Gotta fix a neighbor's computer. More later.

John Schick
257. Kafmerchant
Hi All,

Been lurking since The Beginning. Although I haven't had the time or the mental capacity/creativity, most days, to contribute in any significant fashion. Although hopefully I can find some more time in the future to do more than Lurk....

However, to all the new posters, regulars and alumni - I'm appreciative of the hours and hours of entertainment you've provided, Kudos to all !

Just a heads up to Sub, that the 1st printing of the oversize paperback isn't overly valuable (50-150 $) pending condition, and they showup on ebay on a regular basis - but still something worth looking after carefully.

If I've managed this properly - my avatar will have a picture of what I believe is the first bound version of tEoTW that I rescued from ebay a couple of years ago (maybe tnh can/will comment). Read the red fine print, if/when you can ... it's really cool.

Edited: for coherency. Deleted a sentence as my avatar showed up as planned. And add - you can't see it well in the picture/avatar, but there is printing along the top of book that reads "Harriet's marked up copy" - no trolling. This book contains some hand written edits by Mrs Jordan (and someone else whom I have yet to identify although there is a fairly obvious choice), and includes a 3 page letter to tnh from Mrs Jordan. As I understand it, the advance reading copy was created from this version, as were the final hardcover (yes Sub there was a limited hardcover printing) and oversize softcover both originally printed in February 1990.

Alice Arneson
258. Wetlandernw
Jumping into the sul'dam/damane discussion for a quick input...

My understanding is that there is an identifiable difference between what we've dubbed "learners" and "sparkers" and that this difference can be detected by trained channelers.

The Aes Sedai (or WO or SF) can tell (via whatever testing they do) if a girl is a "sparker" - that is, she will inevitably channel whether she is trained or not. One reason they try so hard to find these is that only one out of four girls will survive the sparking experience if they don't have someone to train them. This is not only deadly to the girl herself, but can sometimes be dangerous to those around her*; either reason in itself is enough to be worth the effort of finding them. Obviously the SF and WO have a lot better luck in finding 100%, because they're integrated with their (smaller) populations in ways that the AS are not.

The "learners" are a different story; they will never channel unless someone teaches them how. While they are definitely worth finding, because some of them will be quite strong, the urgency is much less since they are no danger to themselves or anyone else.

The point is that the one doing the tests can tell the difference between a learner and a sparker. For most cultures, this means that the sparker has no choice in receiving the appropriate training; she simply will not be allowed to risk herself on the chance that she might survive the experience. The exception is Randland itself, where the AS are simply too scarce on the ground to catch all of them, so a lot of girls die.

As I understand it, in the Seanchan culture, a learner has the choice of becoming a sul'dam or not, though most will take the option. (The sparker, of course, has a leash around her neck and no choices at all.) Also, as I understand it, in the WO and SF cultures, learners are strongly encouraged but not required to learn; if they really don't want to, they don't have to - but you almost have to be nuts to not want to. In Randland, of course, a learner who is found by the AS will be encouraged to go to the WT (if she's young enough), but if she really doesn't want to, she won't be pressured into it. Given the general attitude toward AS, the girls most likely to go are the ones who have some reason to want more than their home life will give them.

So back to the Seanchan testing: they test for the spark first, and if it's there, the leash never comes off. If it's not there, they test for the ability to learn; if it's there, she's given the choice. As to the specifics of the testing... Again, as I understand it without doing serious research, an experienced sul'dam puts the collar on a girl and tests whether she can "do the magic" with that girl. If not, the collar is removed, and the girl is given the bracelet of a well-trained damane. We haven't been given a lot of detail, but I'm betting the damane can tell whether or not the girl has the ability to use it, although it's not a sure thing until the girl reaches about 21; if the damane can't detect the ability by then, it's clearly not there.

I think it's plausible, though not probable, that the Empress might be able to... influence... the right sul'dam to say that her daughter did not have the spark, and then hand her the bracelet so the damane can say, "Oh, yes, she can be a sul'dam!" - trusting the first sul'dam to be truthful about the lack of sparkiness. Given the long-standing cultural attitude toward channeling, I don't think it's very likely that either the Empress or any sul'dam would actually do that, but it would be possible, and you could end up with a sparker disguised as a sul'dam. I'm not entirely convinced, though, that she could really get away with it around a lot of sul'dam and damane, because they should be able to sense her ability eventually anyway.

However... while I think it must be inevitable that certain sul'dam, and particularly the der'sul'dam, must know that any learner could be taught, I don't think it's commonly understood even by the majority of sul'dam. This might be wilful self-deception on the part of some, while for others it would simply never have occured to them. I'd think the brighter lights on the Christmas tree would figure it out; whether they'd admit it even to themselves is another question.

Thus, I think for your average sul'dam, the revelation that they could be held by a leash would be (as with the ones we saw leashed) shock, horror, disbelief, and terror. But there are some, and I'm pretty sure Tuon fits this group, for whom this would come as no surprise whatsoever. They simply believe (or convince themselves) that the slight genetic difference that gives them the choice is enough to make them human instead of animal. (So to speak.)

*I'm not sure where I got that idea, but I'm reasonably sure it's true. But... it might not be. Please don't shoot me if it proves to be false; the 3-in-4 danger to the girl herself is still there.

Okay, that was a serious ramble. If I had another hour to spare, I'd edit it, but... y'all are just going to have to either wade through it or ignore it as is. :)
Paul Long
259. Caveatar
@255 Subwoofer

.... and this, folks, is an example of why AMoL is being pushed back to its current release date... ;)

!!!!! Exactly.
That was a couple of paragraphs. Imagine 800 bloody pages of it.
Of course professionals are a lot better, more efficient, and less
hard headed about what changes are wanted. Still, the principle is
I have really enjoyed our repartee. A lot.

Paul Long
260. Caveatar
@151 Misfortuona


Strange name. I hope you haven't had bad luck.
Chants the holy chant to prevent bad luck..
"Rafo, Rafo, I don't know, Mafo."
Once again bad luck is warded off.

I would say that an Attractive Descendant of Manly Warriors would
be a fortunate one.
(Of course you can tell I looked at your profile.)
Many years ago I drove by myself from Kentucky to Alaska, toured around for a couple of weeks, called my wife, she flew to Anchorage and we drove back the Cassiar Pass route. Then from central BC, one of the most beautiful places in the freaking world, we drove across Canada,
stopping before reaching Ontario, (I had been there many times before,) and then south and home.

On the trip we stopped at a restuarant and service station and I
asked someone what is the name of the next large town.

The reply was "Saskatoon, Saskatchewan."
We got back in the car and a few minutes later my wife said
"I am ready to go home. They don't even speak English up here."

To which I replied after laughing my ass off for a few minutes,
"Home it is."
She asked me why I laughed. I said,"Dont you know that Saskatoon
is a town in Saskatchewan?"

She said, "Oh hell! Is that what he said? I didn't know who the
hell we had run into up here. Frenchmen or Indians or something."

Thank you for the shout out. Glad you like my efforts.
I admired your wordplay regarding the Canis Canis breed. :D :D

Chris R
261. up2stuff
@ 257 & 258,

There is still a problem though. By that scenario, the sul'dam Egeanin leashed was a learner, who had not channeled. Yet she was held. Why now and not when tested as an adolescent?

Im sorry for being dense.
Paul Long
262. Caveatar
@261 up2stuff
Dense? Hell I haven't understood this thing for 20 years.

Let me attempt. The suldam who can now be leashed have
come to the point where they can almost step over the line
to RJ.
Probably one of those borderline situations. Also I consider that
the decay of the pattern may be causing this kind of thing.
I really don't know but I suspect the announcement of the fact
will have little or no effect on the Seanchan.

Chris R
263. up2stuff
Agreed. Little or no effect. Just making my head hurt.
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
264. tnh
Re spoilers: I'm not especially sensitive to them myself, but I know some readers are, so I do my best to respect that. I don't see why we all shouldn't do the same. Surely it's worth a little extra care and restraint to allow others to enjoy a book as much as you did.

Re accusations that Tor is motivated by greed: First, minor point, just getting it out of the way: they're in the wrong thread.

Second, much bigger point: where in the name of all that's holy is this idea coming from? It makes no sense. Tor doesn't make a penny off a book until it's published.

If a publishing house were solely motivated by greed -- which is pretty much guaranteed to not be the case with anyone working in our beloved but barely profitable industry -- and they had a book that people have been waiting twenty years to read, they'd be doing their best to shove it out the door as soon as possible.

Jay Dauro
265. J.Dauro

Many of the sul'dam have mentioned that with experience, they become able to detect damane. And that they "can almost see the weaves." It is believed by many of the readers that years of using the a'dam act in a similar manner to training. They won't actually step over the line without something to push them, but they now are subject to control by the a'dam. But since they are long past the time of testing, they are never found.

In TGH-45, when Nyneave puts the a'dam on Seta, Seta does not expect it to hold her.
The woman’s shoulders shook, and her mouth curled around the gag in a sneer. It took Nynaeve a moment to realize the sul’dam was laughing.
She is totally surprised when Nyneave is able to use the a'dam to control her. This adds credence to the idea that typical sul'dam are not aware that they can eventually be collared. And we see Seta and Rena fully expect that if it becomes known that they are subject to control by the a'dam, they will be collared.

Tuon has this told to her in COT - 29. Selucia acts as if she did not know, Tuon is harder to read. Mat's thoughts
Tuon’s face was a dark mask, unreadable. She did not like what she had heard, though.
Later in KOD-9 Tuon says that
“I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference.”
So we still do not know if she was aware before that a sul'dam can learn.

IMHO, she, and the other Seanchen, are probably not aware, but we can't really say for sure.
Chris R
266. up2stuff
Logic of it still seems a bit shaky, but if you guys are satisfied that it is sound, I wont argue. Just don't be offended if run across the top really fast.

Paul Long
267. Caveatar

Suffa has been relieved of full time service. She was relieved (Ewww)
to be let off the leash (Ewwww again) occasionally.

She had a stubborn spell and sulled up, complaining that the place was
going to the dogs, (a dangerous statement), at which point someone,
and I don't know for sure but I think it was a certain WoofBrother,
set her straight.

Rumor has it that he said, "Suffa, look into my eyes and do a foretelling
of what will happen if you act this way. Eh?" Then he growled at her.

She rolled her eyes back in her head and said,
"How have the Mighty Fallen to the depths!
The Leashed one fears being fitted with a Shock Collar!
The Former Amyrlin fears for her seat."

Then she got over her conniption fit and behaved properly.
I ain't saying a certain WoofBrother caused that but 'his bite
is worse than his bark'(sic)(stet) and is respected by all.

The BunkerButler is turning out well. Strangely enough the
GirlScouts and Keebler Elves have been avoiding the area.
Oh well, we are well stocked with cookies for a while anyway.

Jeff Schweer
268. JeffS.
tnh @ 264
Yes, This.

What a concept that a product doesn't make money until it ships. Books, cars or even food processors, they have to roll out the door and by PURCHASED before any money is made.

I'm not sure why we don't get that intuitively living in a capitalist society here in the US like we do, but it seems to be news to some.

I worked for a startup at one time and remember working untill the wee hours of the morning a few times to make sure that the correct amount of a device would ship before a certain date. Why, you ask? Well it was a startup, so the next paycheck depended on it but also because the buyer is under no obligation to pay until product is in his hands.
Tor gets paid when I buy the book. That's it. I've never understood how anyone thinks Tor makes extra money the later the ship date is.

Back on track with the current Suldam/Damane discussion.
I think J Dauro at 265 has the right of it with the quote from COT 29.
In my mind this tells me that neither Tuon or Selucia knew this before that moment and that Tuon's later quote from KOD was spoken out of the ingrained superiority complex that a Suldam would have over "animals" but also an affirmation of her superiority as the Daughter and of the highest of the high blood. We may find out in AMOL that it's hubris and I have a sneaking suspicion that we may see her collared as an educational experience but I do not think that this is common knowlege of among the people of Seanchen. I can't recall any mention or even any inference that a Suldam had ever been collared even accidently before. I'm sure if it had happened, Selucia or Tuon would have reacted differently.

anyway, my two cents worth.
Nadine L.
269. travyl
I agree with J. Dauro (265) as well that sul'dam don't know they could channel by themselves. IMO it would be a shock to Seanchan society.
I give you an alternate (highly unlikely) scenario for AMoL regarding ForTuona: what if, instead of being collared, she is "forced" to consciously chose to channel, e.g. Mat dying and Tuon, who knows the weave for Healing from her damane Mylen (KOD) the singel option to safe his life?

@Terez' theory Re book cover:
if this is true, you realize it will maybe rob us of an opportunity to complain that the cover doesn't fit with what happens / the characters aren't drawn as we imagined them? - Maybe some RLW might still complain that it robs us of that, if nothing else?
Hugh Arai
270. HArai
tnh@264: Stop confusing the issue with logic and facts. How are they supposed to maintain their indignant whining? :)
Theresa Gray
271. Terez27

PS—I apologize for being in the wrong thread. I thought about posting my theory on the release date thread but I was scared I'd stir up the crazies again.
Alice Arneson
272. Wetlandernw
Terez @271 - RLW = Red Letter Whiners. :)

This is definitely the right place to post the theory. Not too many of those who actually care are paying much attention to the other one; as you say, any comment like this would only stir up the crazies (a.k.a. RLWs) again! (We even dubbed that thread TTTSNBN - for the newer folks, that would be The Thread That Shall Not Be Named.)
Theresa Gray
273. Terez27
Ahh, Whiners. I was thinking Wankers, but somehow I doubted that was it. :D
Dawn Boyall
275. deebee
...and on a completely unrelated point-

It`s spring! I am venturing forth to look for apple blossom and apples, because somebody somewhere has done something and I am soooo happy to see the sun shine.
Ice-cream on the beach anyone?
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
276. tnh
Kafmerchant @257: How the devil did that production copy wind up on eBay? With, for all love, my correspondence with Harriet still tucked inside? (Is that the letter where we were going back and forth about Nancy Weisenfeld's copyedit, and Jim Rigney's preferred style of ellipses? It's been a long time.)

Did the person who sold it say anything about it?

I'd love to see large high-resolution photos of all those materials, including samples of the interior markup, and all three pages of the letter. I can recognize the handwriting of most of the people that could have marked up the pages, so there's a good chance that I can either identify the person or rule out some possibilities.

I'd very much prefer that you mail me pictures of the letter, rather than posting them somewhere. My email address is on the front page of my weblog, Making Light.


What you have there isn't the first bound edition. It's either a bound galley or a bound manuscript copy -- I should remember which, but I don't. Tom Doherty did so much fiddling with the marketing and format of that book that it spent close to a year in production, rather than the normal nine months, and at times drove our department to distraction.

If it's typeset, it's a bound galley. If it's reproduced from the manuscript pages, it's a bound manuscript. Both can be referred to as "advance copies."

Anyway, the advance copies with the plain light-blue cover were superseded by the massive printing of ARCs with the four-color Darryl Sweet cover. An ARC (Advance Reading Copy) is basically a bound galley with a four-color cover that's usually an early version of the cover that will appear on the book. The Tor booth at the ABA that year had so many copies of it that they could have built Vauban-style fortifications out of them. Printing such a large and lavish ARC in such quantities was a gamble for Tor, which back then was a smaller and poorer company.

Is the thing you're referring to as "the 1st printing of the oversize paperback" the ARC? Check and see whether it has a price printed anywhere on the cover. If not, it's an ARC. IIRC, the ARC also featured the interim state of the cover in which the author of one of the cover quotes was erroneously identified as "Gordon R. R. Dickson."
Jeff Schweer
277. JeffS.
Travyl @269
Oooh, I like that idea. Something will have to trigger it and that's a good way for it to happen.
Terez27 and anthonypero
I mean really. Is it polite to give a 53 year old man a fit of the giggles this early in the morning? "Wankers" and "if the W fits" ...
I guess I'm just not that mature before I've finished my coffee. Actually, my daughters would probably say I'm not that mature most times.
tnh @276 Wow, just wow. I would love to see those items and thanks for the glimpse into that early turn of the wheel.
Paul Long
279. Caveatar
@ Freelancer and other interested parties.

Having received an inquiry about mistletoe from Freelancer,
and in case anyone else is tempted to use it, for whatever
purpose, I have stocked the Bunker with a supply of the
little hemi-parasitic plant thing.

It is stored on a shelf near the door for quick
availability in case it is wanted in a hurry.

It is stored in the box with the DANGER sign
just inside the bunker door for quick access when needed.
Do not get it mixed with the cookies.

Be careful with this stuff. It is dangerous.
Baldr the Norse God was killed by it when mistletoe
was the ONLY thing that could harm him.
So much for invulnerability.
(Frigga, my heart weeps with you. That Loki is a right bastard!)

It has also been known to lead to reckless and promiscious
kissing which has led to other reckless things which lead to
other things up to and including paternity suits.
(Which reminds me: The remaining Pink Ribbons are stored
behind the mistletoe box. I don't know what happened to the Tylin Knife. Maybe Leigh took it with her to N'awlins.)

It should be used with extreme care.

If one has been assaulted beyond endurance and is tempted to
fasten a sprig of the stuff above one's coattails but is aware
of the dangers, there is an alternate solution.

The alternative is to politely ask one's tormentor for
an "Australian Kiss*" instead.
This too will let one's opinions of the current situation be known
to the tormentor and serves the same purpose.
See the BunkerButler for help with instructions and or pins.

* Of course you know what they are.

Edit: to correct transposed words
Paul Long
280. Caveatar
@273 Terez27

"Wankers" ?

What is that? Something like a Monosexual?

Birgit F
281. birgit
Not simply horror at seeing two sul'dam as marath'damane, but her own sudden personal terror. Often she thought she could almost see damane's weaves, and she could always sense a damane's presence and know how strong she was. Many sul'dam could; everyone knew it came from long experience at handling the a'dam. Yet the sight of that desperate pair roused unwanted thoughts, putting a different and frightening complexion on what she had always accepted. Did she almost see the weaves, or did she really see? Sometimes she thought she felt the channeling, too. Even sul'dam had to undergo the yearly testing, until their twenty-fifth naming day, and she had passed by failing every time. Only ... There would be a new testing after Renna and Seta were discovered, a new testing to find the marath'damane who somehow had evaded the first. The Empire itself might tremble before such a blow. And with the image of Renna and Seta burned into her brain, she had known with total certainty that after those tests, Bethamin Zeami would no longer be a respected citizen. Instead, a damane called Bethamin would serve the Empire.
WH, ch. 20
Paul Long
282. Caveatar
@281 Birgit
"The Empire itself might tremble before such a blow."

Well that is pretty much enough to knock my hat in the creek.
Was that the flash of a Silver Arrow across my line of sight?

Birgit hits the target dead center from where I am standing.

Jay Dauro
283. J.Dauro
Although I think Bethamin is correct, she is a simple sul'dam. It could still be possible for knowledge of this to be confined to certain members of the High Blood and der'sul'dams. Still, I believe a demonstration of this in public would cause great problems.
284. AndrewB
RL has prevented me from reading the almost 300 posts this week. I would love to have known what spawned so many posts. If only I had won the Powerball, I would not need to work and devote all the needed time to read this blog. That said, I did a search on the term "bloodknives" to make sure that nobody else made the points I intend to make below. The did not so I will.

Well back to reality. Now that I have some free time, I am going to post my thoughts on the concept of the bloodkinves. This will be a rather lengthy post (at least for me) -- just a warning

First, to properly analyze the concept of the bloodkinves, I believe that I have to analyze the applicable scenes in TGS and ToM. The fact that RJ initially intended for the last three books to be one novel, (IMO) strengthens this argument. Accordingly my analysis will address all the bloodknives scenes.

After my initial read of ToM, I thought the concept of the bloodknives was unecessary. To introduce the concept of a non-natural assassin in the final act of the story added an unnecessary component. (I use the term "non-natural because the bloodknives ability to become practically invisible (to the average soldier) comes from the use of a ter'angreal. A ter'angreal, I might add (and as others have pointed out above) that the reader had no idea or prior foreshadowing of its existence. I believe that such an important weapon (the bloodknives' rings, as they are used (IMO), are a part of a weapon) should not be introduced at the very late stage in the series) without any further indication where there is another alternative that will not change the outcome of the story.

After my initial reading of ToM, I beleived that Team Jordan would have been better off having the Bloodknives as a specially trained assassination/special ops unit (which they are -- at least in Seanchan society); but without the need for a ter'angreal to grant them such skills. Sort of analoguous to the ninja in our current fiction (I use the ninja in fiction as an example because I do not know how exagerated a ninja's skills are in real life -- could a properly trained ninja do what ninjas do in the comics and the movies? Since I have not been trained in ninjistu or know a person so trained, I cannot speculate).

The use of a specially trained combat unit (without ter'angreal) would not have changed the overall structure of both books. This is different than the concept of the dreamspike. While the reader had no inclination that such a device existed, that does not bother me as much. ToM would have been a completely different story without the dreamspike. For this reason, and for this reason only, I am not as bothered that we are introduced to such an important new device in the second to last book.

My second criticism is that the bloodknives were (for all intensive purposes) rather ineffective. Sure, they killed a couple of Aes Sedai and Warders. However, the bloodkinves team did not inflict mass chaos on their target (the White Tower) as the Seanchan predicted.

Further, look at the way that the bloodkinves were depicted in action on screen (so to speak). The first bloodknife was killed by Bryne. I suppose on could chalk that up to the reasons that Bryne so stated (experienced swordsman who now has the advantages of being a Warder). However, Gawyn also bested the bloodknives. While he is a very good swordsman (blademaster level, in fact), he does not have the other aspects that Bryne does (i.e. experience and the Warder bond). Nevertheless, he successfully repels a bloodkinfe in the Tower hallway. In addition, he kills three of the Bloodknives all by himself (although he would have died as a result of his injuries had Egwene not bonded him). To further my initial thought, it was Gawyn's luck as much as his skill that won him the melee (sp?) in Egwene's room. The first Bloodkinfe was killed because he/she was overconfident that 3 Bloodknives could easily dispatch a single swordsman. The last Bloodkinve was also killed by luck. It was Gawyn's luck that this last Bloodkinve fell for Gawyn's feint.

Thus, my initial assessment were that the Bloodknives were an unnecessary plot device that could have been handled with minor tweeks to the story so as not to intorduce a new ter'angreal. (Also, unlike, Mordin who was known to be collecting ter'angreal), the Seanchan, with the exception of the a'dam, do not use ter'angreal. There is no indication that any Seanchan realizes that the Crystal Throne is itself a ter'angreal.)

However, after re-reading the scene where Gawyn talks to the former sul'damane and his duel with the three Bloodknives, it is exactly my second argument above why (IMO) Team Jordan included the concept of the Bloodkinves. (I assume that the ter'angreal rings that Gawyn took from the dead Bloodknives and now wears as a necklace will have no further significance in AMoL. Should they do, that could have been another reason to introduce the concept of the Bloodknives.) The Bloodkinves were presented to us, the reader, as an elite military unit who, when unleasehed, would inflict inumerable damage to the enemy without the enemy being able to do anything to stop the carnage. That concept was further espoused by the former sul'damane.

Nevertheless, what we saw was something entirely different. We saw small soldiers using stealth and a kinfe. Against an untrained and/or unsuspecting person, they would be able to kill them. However, duel an execllent swordsman who expects an attack (be it Gawyn who knows of the Bloodkinves existence or Bryne who in the middle of a battle expects the unexpected), then the Bloodknives are not what we were advertised.

The Bloodknives are an example of one of the major themes of WoT. Characters, be it individually (e.g. Nynaeve and her opinions of the average man) or as a group (e.g. Aes Sedai who think that only they know the proper way to teach somebody to channel), think that they are always right and that is the way it has to be. Also, any knowledge that appears to contradict the what they think they know must be false. The bloodkinves are an example of the characters beleifs that they know everything and the other person must be wrong.

Another example of why Team Jordan should be writing/editing the WoT and why I should be reading the books.

Once again, I apologize for such a long text.

Thanks for reading my musings,
Paul Long
285. Caveatar
@284 AndrewB
Very lucid and not at all long for the information conveyed.
It clarified a lot of things in my mind. Good post.

A question. Hope you don't mind and don't really expect you will mind.

I have a continuing problem on a keyboard with certain letter
combinations. (My backspace key is worn down severely.)
When I type something ending with 'tion' for example I
nearly always type "tioin" or 'toin'. I type fairly fast and except for minor cramping and arthritis in my hands there is no reason for it
that I know.

I noticed the repeated transpositions of 'in' for 'ni' in your post.
Inconsequential and no problem at all to read but I am curious.
Do you have arthritis in your right hand, (assuming a qwerty keyboard),
or something? If you do have a similar condition it would explain why I also do the transpositions.

286. pilgrimsoul
@ Andrew B 284
I'm not the grammar police, and maybe "for all instensive purposes" will become the new usage, but for folks of my age it's "for all intents and purposes." A different meaning, you see.

Haha, I saw that too, but let it slide.
micheal julia
288. high fantasy
@286 don't you wish you were in the "grey" so you could fix "instensive"?
Paul Long
289. Caveatar
@286 and @287

"This cliche (meaning "practically") is a shortening of the legal phrase "to all intents, constructions, and purposes" (found in an act adopted under Henry VIII in 1547).
The corruption "for all intensive purposes" is frequently reported."
Because it is commonly used by many.
Somewhat like "a'int", a proper contraction for "am not" when used
as in 'I am not', but improper with something like "they am not"
for example. That construction would be "They're not".
But "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
If it 'am not' broke don't, but if it are broke, then say, "ME? I didn't break the thing."
With common usage the construction becomes a new expression.

to all intents and purposes , or 'practically speaking',
'a nod is as good as a wink.' ;D
I just love English. Don't you?

My own question was regarding a mistyping habit I have had for years.
If it turns out that AndrewB has similar problems with his hands it
will a answer a longstanding question in my mind.

Addendum: @288 high fantasy
Rolling on the floor laughing with tears in my eyes as big as horse turds.
@ Pilgrimsoul.
I am not laughing at you or even laughing near you but the ironic typo
could not have occured at a better time. And that is what tickles my
funny bone. Must be the Dark One at work. Or maybe not.

290. AndrewB
I am not a great typist so that is why I switched "ni" for "in" bloodknives. I am too lazy to proofread before I post something. As for "intensive" instead of for "intents and purposes" I knew what I typed did not look right.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Paul Long
291. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Paul Long
292. Caveatar
@290 AndrewB
"I am not a great typist so that is why I switched "ni" for "in" bloodknives."

Well, there is another theory shot to hell. Not my first time.

Tess Laird
293. thewindrose
At AndrewB 284:
Thus, my initial assessment were that the Bloodknives were an unnecessary plot device that could have been handled with minor tweeks to the story so as not to intorduce a new ter'angreal.
Doctorial Canidate Jonathan Levy put forth a very convincing dissertation on why Team Joran decided to bring more attention to the the Blood Knife Ring ter'angreal:
"50 ways to deal with Gawyn" is a stroke of inspired genius. I salute you, Sir, and present my small addition to the list: Way to kill Gawyn #23: ================

"Boy" said Mat as they strolled down the corridors of the Sun Palace - "I haven't had this much fun since the Last Battle!". Perrin and Rand's laughter echoed down the hallway. "Who made the rhubarb tart - was it Sorilea?" asked Rand. "Cadsuane, I think," answered Perrin, "But Lini's Meringue was better. I could not keep my paws - I mean my hands - off it." "I saw how you wolfed down Lini's" joked Rand as they passed a door slightly ajar - "but you should have seen how I absolutely destroyed Morgase's..."
In the calm stillness of the late morning, Gawyn Trakand poised for action. The Oneness, Bryne had called it. He was one with the sharpened edge of steel, with the pretty Seanchan rings on his fingers, and with the hangnail. Careful. Laughter echoed from the half-open door of his room, but he pushed it away. Hangnails were always tricky, especially on the little toe on the left foot. Egwene will feel it if you cut yourself again. He felt his cheeks flush. He did not want to face her raised eyebrow again, or her pitifully indulgent smiles. Now. Do it. A familiar voice slipped through the door to his ear - "...I absolutely destroyed Morgase...". His hand slipped. Rage colored his face, and his heart pounded in his chest. Al'Thor. Al'Thor! That monster had killed his mother. He had warned Elayne, tried to warn her. Women never listened. He unsheathed his dagger and rushed outside, never noticing the blood dripping off his pretty rings. He would have his vengeance!
"...and so I told Myrelle - you can borrow my Warder, but not my husband!" Egwene finished the story. Min was holding her side in stitches, and Elayne was not far off. "I do not understand, near-sister" said Aviendha. "Why did you not just spank - " she frowned as she saw Egwene wince. "Has he cut himself again?" asked Elayne solicitously. Min nodded in sympathy. They were all far too sympathetic. She had seen them rolling their eyes when they thought she was not looking, and - Her train of thought was cut off as a blurry Gawyn thundered burst through a door into the hall. "Al'Thoooooor!" he roared. "Gawyn, please!" she tried to calm him. "He killed my mother!". Min was raising an eyebrow at Elayne, who was shaking her head ever so slightly. "He confessed from his own mouth! I heard him boasting to his friends!". "Gawyn, listen calmly". The words painfully familiar. Was Aviendha laughing? "We saw Morgase not half an hour ago at the pie-eating contest. She was just fine. She - " He slammed his fist into his hand. "I've been looking for her for minutes, and I can find nothing. Nothing! Do you have any proof?" She answered - "Darling, I will show you proof, if you come to the Throne Room, it'll take just take five minutes and - Gawyn! Come back!" He had pushed her aside, running down the hall. Aviendha was laughing, and Min was barely holding it in. With a sigh she embraced Saidar, and started to weave. Spirit and Air, just so...
"And remember the peddler, Fain? I was sure he'd show up at Shayol Ghul, but we never even saw him." said Perrin, puffing on his pipe. The view from the balcony was quite relaxing, marred only by Mat's habit of sitting on the railing, despite the great height. "You know", said Rand "I did think I saw him at one point, but he got stepped on by one of Cerandin's boar-horses before I could be sure." He started to swing his feet up onto the chair Mat had never sat on, and everything seemed to happen at once. An unseen shadow stumbled over his moving legs, sending him sprawling. Mat lunged sideways, arms flailing, barely coming down on the right side of the railing. "Al'Thoooooooooor - " the wail cut off abruptly. "What was that?" "Probably another one of those Seanchan assassins." "Did he fall off?" "Yeah, I think so." "You'd think they'd have learned by now how dumb it is to send these guys against Ta'veren." "Can you see where he landed?" Perrin gazed five stories down into the street below. "There" he pointed. "In the dung cart?" "Yes". He squinted. "Head-first, I think". Rand was at his side. "You mean the one rolling down the hill?" His landing must have loosed the chocks. "Yes. It's going to crash into that other wagon there". Recognition dawned upon his face - "It's one of Aludra's! Down, quick!" They threw themselves flat on the floor as the explosion shook the city. Small bits of manure rained down on them. Some of them were bloody. He looked away. Mat was on his feet already, looking down the street. A cloud of smoke was rising over the city. There was no trace of either wagon. Rand broke the silence. "I guess we should send someone to search for the ring Ter'angreal." "Yeah. Wouldn't do for some idiot to put them on. Who knows what trouble it might cause..."
Heart pounding, Egwene gazed down the hall. Had she been quick enough? "Did you stop him?" asked Min. "What? Uh... no." The Three Oaths held her. "I... I did something else". She would have done it a long time ago had it not been for one small thing. Elayne rounded on her: "What did that weave do? I've never seen something so complex woven so quickly. How did you do it?" She should have done it a long time ago. "I've been practicing" Egwene evaded the first part of the question. That much was true. Her head felt oddly empty now, blessedly so. She'd have to remember to pretend to cry. "Listen, Elayne, could you do me a favor? There's this Ter'angreal I'd like to borrow..." Maybe that small thing wasn't so small after all, but she could manage without it. For a time, anyway. Finding a suitable ... replacement ... might take a while. "And perhaps you could introduce me to that handsome Charlz Guybon who keeps following you around." Greens who lost their Warders were known seek a man's comfort sometimes. This might work out rather well after all.
As you can see from this brilliant work, Team Jordan had to bring a little more focus to this ter'angreal..:D
(Thank you JonathanLevy for writting this - and AndrewB - I know you went on and came up with some very logical reasons - but I had to...)(Also - I copied this from tGS Thread 14 and the formating didn't follow.)

Paul Long
294. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Jeff Schweer
295. JeffS.
AndrewB @ 284
I'm not to worried about the grammer but am interested in the post.
It is true, IMO, that what the characters in WOT "know" to be true is usually not as set in stone as they think. People would rather die than give up a preconceived notion in most cases. The Bloodknives are infallable, there is only one way to heal someone, a suldam is not a damane...
This theme of "everybody knows such and such" having no true relationship to reality reoccurs throughout the books as you've noted here.
Birgit's quote from Winters Heart @ 281 is another one of those occurances.
"Even sul'dam had to undergo the yearly testing, until their twenty-fifth naming day, and she had passed by failing every time."

It seems that the Seanchen had determined that all potential damane would be caught by that time, without exception. Egwene and the Tower have found that women, like Sharina can learn and be novices as grandmothers. (Kinds throws tradition out the window. Throw in a chorus of "Tradition" from "Fiddler on the Roof" here if you want)
Tuon thinks about instituting new tests and has her own self confidence shaken but doesn't really want to think about it.
Denial is strong in human nature. We don't want to think about ugly truths. For instance, the reality of the white hair in my beard is a contemptable lie saying that I'm growing older. Not possible, I'm 39, just like Jack Benny always was.

edited to add: Helping to push the thread to 300 for the second week in a row.
Theresa Gray
296. Terez27
I'm not to worried about the grammer...
Or spelling, apparently. :)
Paul Long
297. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Paul Long
298. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Paul Long
299. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Jeff Schweer
300. JeffS.
working toward 300
is a thankless job today
I can help, I can

Edit: 299 happened twice so is mine 300?
sweet if it is, not so much if not.
Paul Long
301. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Theresa Gray
302. Terez27
So this is like First Post, isn't it? :)
Paul Long
303. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Alice Arneson
304. Wetlandernw
AndrewB @284 - Personally, I'm betting that the rings do play an important part in AMoL, although I'm not going to put forward any of the multiple ideas I've had as actual theories. The fact that Gawyn knows about and collected them, and carries them with him, seems to me like a big clue that they will be used again, whether deliberately or inadvertently. I'm not sure which would be better, but if I'm right, it's all something RJ had planned in 'way back when.

The other possibility is that they were only planned to be part of the outriggers, but... I don't think so.

But hey, wouldn't it be fun for someone to be using one during the Seanchan attack on the WT and turn the tables on them? For a certain definition of fun, anyway. Although I doubt Jonathan's scenario will actually come to pass as written, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to find Gawyn using one - for that "violent death" option Egwene Dreamed - to defend her from otherwise-certain death.

As for the rest of you... ::shakes head:: ...y'all are crazy. You did know that, didn't you? ;)
Theresa Gray
305. Terez27
Agreed, the emphasis on Gawyn and the Bloodrings would be an incredibly lame red herring. He will use one. I think Galad likely will too. There's one more, and the best candidate seems to be Gareth Bryne, for the Arthurian Trio, since Perival is too young.
John Schick
306. Kafmerchant
tnh @ 276

Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated !

I will email pictures in the next 24 hours along with what history I know or have deduced. I agree with you that the letter shouldn’t be made public without necessary approvals. The “discussion” you mentioned sounds … interesting… but the contents of this letter are more mundane and simply include info on book formatting, layout and listing of the chapter icons (I’ve scanned a copy of it too).

While not clear in my avatar, the book looks grey in real life (although if there was a light blue one, that would be interesting as well). I acquired a 2nd one, without markups, that is identical to that pictured, and it is grey as well.

I know the arc well, as at one point I had five of the things from various bundled purchases I made (the exterior cover of the arc is the same artwork that is now found on the inside flap, and the inside cover of the arc is the same artwork that now appears on the current cover). I just picked up one of the arc’s and on the back has a quote attributed to George R Dickson - is that what you were referring to ? (been so long since I’d picked it up that I’d completely forgot that I had the matching bookmark, and postcard inside, a pleasant surprise). I’ve since donated one to Jason Denzel and one to Jennifer Liang, for helping make a waking nightmare of a trip to the TGS signing in Charleston end on an awesome note.

In referring to the “oversize paperback” – it is a softcover book with the dimensions of approx. 6” x 9” (matching the size of the arc as well as the other proofs/galleys/bound manuscripts that I have). On this version, the exterior artwork and inside flap match what is currently on shelves everywhere. There are prices (both Canadian and US, etc) and ISBN # listing.

From your perspective - is there a difference between a galley, bound manuscript, or proof ? Just curious, as I have various versions of almost all those written by RJ (have never seen a proof/galley/manuscript for Crown of Swords despite hours and hours of searching).
I can't wait for the meeting between Fortuona and Egwene. With Gawyn by her side as her Warder, wearing those three rings..... That would be an eye narrowing statement indeed!

Anthony Pero
309. anthonypero
That would be a cool scene. Hope it happens!
Anthony Pero
310. anthonypero
Double Post Monster has been zapping me today.
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
311. tnh
Okay, this is funny. I've been able to confirm that what Kafmerchant has is a one-of-a-kind artifact from the production of the first edition of The Eye of the World. The line written in red ink at the top edge of the cover that says "Harriet's marked-up copy" is in my handwriting.
Alice Arneson
312. Wetlandernw
kafmerchant/tnh - Totally amazing. How sweet is that?! (and... uh... tnh... you must be almost as ancient as me, if you were that involved in the first production of the first book of this beastie. ;) Good times!)

ZEXXES @ 308 - Now that would be something to see. Of course, the initial assumption would be that the assassins had simply died from the effect of the rings, and he'd taken them off the bodies, but there are those who could verify that he did kill them, if Tuon could be made to believe them. Mat would probably vouch for Egwene's truthfulness, though, and she'd believe him. Okay, this has real potential!

tenkuu @307 - Not having read SoT, I can't comment on the comparison, but it seems fairly certain that the Seanchan don't miss any sparkers; they all survive. Which rather begs the question, doesn't it: is it better to die from the sparking effects as a teen, or live 300-400 years with a collar and leash, and no will of your own? ::shudder:: What a choice! Not that they're given one, but still.

@ general - Incidentally, as I was going back to look at something about the Bloodknives question, I ran across that episode with the captured sul'dam who explained the ter’angreal to Gawyn, and discovered this little tidbit. The Kinswoman was talking with Gawyn about the sul'dam taken in Altara:
"...Many refuse to admit that they can see the weaves, but a few have been honest with us. To a woman, they've insisted that they should be made damane."

She nodded back toward Kaisea. "This one is most troubling. We think she's intentionally working to learn the weaves so that she can create an 'accident,' and use our own reasoning against us - if she does something violent with the One Power, she can claim that we were wrong to leave her free."

A woman who could be trained to kill with the One Power, who was not bound by the Three Oaths, and who had a determination to prove that she was dangerous? Gawyn shivered.
Indeed. I’d shiver too! Still, I think that's a fair indication that few of the sul'dam were aware of their inborn ability to learn to channel, and that they don't yet understand the distinctions in what we refer to as learners and sparkers. Specifically, they don’t realize that the ability to touch the OP is required on both ends of the a'dam to make it work; they think they merely slipped through the proper testing at the time. Moebius strip, indeed.

I find myself wondering if it would really be a good thing for the world at large if they figure this out before the LB. Given the rather bizarre ways the sul’dam seem to react to the revelation, as well as most of the damane’s insistence on keeping their leashes, Team Light might lose an awful lot of really effective channelers while they go catatonic. The pragmatist in me thinks maybe they should wait for the big reveal until after the LB is done; the more idealistic part is horror-stricken at the very idea of letting them continue living this lie any longer than absolutely necessary. I wonder if they’d consider the Oath Rod an adequate substitute for the a’dam… surely they could come up with some Seanchan-tailored version of an Oath that would let them fight against Team Dark and still provide whatever constraints they felt were necessary.
Jonathan Levy
313. JonathanLevy

Limericks? Knowest thou what rough beast's stony sleep thou dost disturb? Hast thou not read the infamous Berelain Limerick thread (WH:20)?

Well, that gives us some perspective, doesn't it? Though some people might consider Crossroads of Twilight borderline abuse :)

Re: Tuon meeting Gawyn with 3 Rings.
It might even prove enough of a shock for Tuon to make her channel inadvertently. :)
Yeah I thought you guys and gals might like the possibility of a meeting of those three. Because Fortuona would of course know the numbers gained to lost during her little.... preemptive skirmish/raid. Egwene would know that such a military action could not have happened without the approval of the soverign. Fortuona would know that Egwene knows the purpose of those Blood Knives. And Gawyn would be standing beside Egwene fingering those rings with a wry grin just touching the corner of his mouth. It might even be more of grinning sneer. Sorta like the one a Pitbull gives you before he rips out your jugular.

I just can't wait to read about the internal reaction from Fortuona during that moment. Because for all intents and purposes Gawyn or Egwene would well be within their rights to strike her down right then, Empress or not. I want to read what Fortuona signs to her Truth Speaker? Is that right? Fingers all-a-twitter'n. Mat would have..... ohhhhhh, the medallion.

I really hope that scene happens....I just realized something.... and I'm not telling! MwaHaahahahaaaa! Nobody is gonna pinch this from me. Just remember this moment. During the spoiler thread when you read "I called it". This was it.

Paul Long
315. Caveatar
@313 JonathanLevy

Yea, verily and forsooth would I get me to yon siege parlous and
awaken and vie with the rough beast though he smite me mightily
yet would I fall upon his neck and beat him terribly about the head and shoulders 'til he did yield him to me.
T'would please me to engage with glaive and clere shield e'en
lacking plate of proof.

Of course I would get me to yon siege parlous at the rate of
probably less than 1 furlong per fortnight and by the time I
arrived the post count would have crashed the board and the
battle would be over. (The old knights were always having
their morningstars jam and their horses throwing a shoe and their
lances warping and their 'scutchins getting tangled at the wrong time and showing up just in time to pillage the corpses and taking credit
for the win. ;) I can do that.

"It might even prove enough of a shock for Tuon to make her channel inadvertently"

Is inadvertently some new Power? Or a combination of True, One, and some other power? It would probably be something accidental and unintentional at least. ;D


Yes, those Berelain things had me laughing for sure.

Borderline abuse? Close to it.

@314 Zexxes
I really hope that scene happens....I just realized something.... and I'm not telling! MwaHaahahahaaaa! Nobody is gonna pinch this from me.
Just remember this moment. During the spoiler thread when you read "I called it". This was it.
What in the cotton picking, chicken plucking, curled up cathair makes you think that? I had that very same realization more than a week ago. I even trademarked that idea. So, smartypants, I have prior claim. Neener neener. :D

Theresa Gray
316. Terez27
I find that I like the 'subscribe' function. It keeps me entertained while I am doing other things. :) You guys will let me know if I get annoying, right? I can be oblivious sometimes.


Some people say my theories should come with spoiler warnings. I think most of them are probably only half-right, but since people say that a lot I'll oblige.

I go back and forth on whether or not the damane issue will be resolved before the end. But most of the time I lean toward it being resolved. RJ said everything wouldn't be resolved, though. And it may be that the hook he always referenced was about Mat and Tuon going their separate ways again after the Last Battle. I don't like it...at all. But I find it to be very likely from a purely logical perspective, and knowing a little bit about how RJ's brain works. That would seem to fit at least somewhat with what Aviendha saw, too...not that that necessarily means anything. And in that case, their parting ways could be over the damane issue, and it could be simply over the Empire issue. I'd always assumed the outriggers would be Mat and Tuon going to reclaim the Seanchan continent, but maybe not.

I'd still like to know exactly how that fits with Nicola's Foretelling, which parallels with a dream shared by Bair and Melaine. It still doesn't feel logical to me that the future teetering on the edge of a blade—the scale swinging first one way, then the other—should refer to the ongoing conflict with the Seanchan. And if Rand is dead, then why is he even important? And why is he on a boat when he was supposedly going to be burned on a funeral pyre? (If my boyfriend was infested by a Moridin, I'd burn him too, just to be safe.) In other words, if Rand is central to both the Foretelling and the Dream, then it seems safe to assume that the fate of the future depends on him somehow. And obviously, he depends on the three women.

But then, in Nicola's Foretelling, the land is still divided by the Return. The Guardians balancing the Servants implies to me that they are working together, and seeing as how that's one of the themes of the series, it makes sense. And if, at this point, Rand hasn't won the Last Battle yet, then The Two still need to be made As One. The 'many become one' referred to the KC line saying that Rand will 'bind the north to the east'. Then it says that the west will be bound to the south, but it specifically does not say Rand will be the one to do that. So, the north and the east are As One, and the south and the west are As One. We still need a truce, and it appears as though there isn't one yet at the time of Rand's resurrection, which is before the Last Battle.

It's hard to see how Mat and Tuon being married is not important to that. And I've theorized before that the concept will be paralleled in the consummation of their marriage ('one' in a Biblical sense). At this point I tend to think that, while Rand is obviously important and needs to be resurrected, he need not play a role in forging that truce.

There's an RJ quote I have in my sig at a lot of forums. Someone asked him to summarize the series in six words.
I've written a few million words so far, and you want me to summarize in six? Well, here goes. Cultures clash, worlds change; cope. I know; only five. But I hate to be wordy.
He is obviously going for a hardcore culture clash with the Seanchan. And while I see a lot of thematic awesomeness that suggests Tuon will get her Empire after all, I wonder if that would break the rules set out by RJ on how a story should and should not end.

The key element playing into those themes is the legacy of the Aiel. The very first Aiel we meet—Urien, in TGH—tells us that the Aiel will cross the Dragonwall and 'take back places of old'. That's prophecy. What are their places of old? They were servants to the Servants. Who are the Servants now? The Aes Sedai have been politicking in the White Tower, and while there's a great deal of politicking among the Seanchan, at least they have society more or less organized into efficiency, which is the best way to assure Justice. And RJ described himself as a monarchist.

That's why I am believing more and more that the Oaths are set up to be a sort of compromise with Tuon over whether or not channelers are safe. Even with the Oaths, Aes Sedai still live 4x as long as a normal person, so it's hard to see them as inhumane, especially alongside the damane issue. And while some think Egwene got over her a'dam thing in TOM, I somehow doubt it. There are still themes to be played out there.

When you get into that territory, it's easy to see how Rand could play an important role in the truce after all. He's got the knowledge from the Age of Legends about the Aiel 'places of old'. Hawkwing is a huge deal thematically. Without an Empire, it seems all those themes fall apart. And if Aviendha's vision of the future taught us anything, it's that the system of ji'e'toh, based as it is on war, will not sustain the Aiel in a time of Peace. And they will probably have places of high honor in the Empire, but without the concept of property.

That's tough for a lot of people to buy, because it seems like the Aiel volunteering themselves for slavery, but I think that RJ, being a southern gentleman, was probably raised on the same talking points I was about the Civil War and the century or so following. We are taught that the wage slaves of the north were not much better off than the slaves, and sometimes quite a bit worse off because they didn't make enough money to feed, house, and clothe their families, while most slaves had at least that much. Of course, in this day and age it is difficult to ignore the fact that the concept of human property is appalling no matter how you frame it. This goes for the da'covale and even the so'jhin. Field slaves and house slaves. A person might work for food, or for food/housing/clothing, and be relatively satisfied assuming all other conditions are favorable, but if you see that person as less than human—your property—it becomes an entirely different thing. And I tend to think it's quite purposeful on RJ's part that everyone freaks out about the damane so much that they barely notice the da'covale and the so'jhin...it should horrify us too, but we're distracted by the greater evil.

The Aiel were lifelong servants, though there was some amount of freedom for them to do other things, like become Aes Sedai, or seed-singers. Whatever, they did, it was considered honorable, partly because all roles were considered important, but mostly because of their racial unity and cultural creeds. They are a parallel to the Jews in this way. The wetlands are the promised land. The frustrating thing is that we don't really know what it was about the Aiel that made them so respected. It couldn't have simply been the non-violence, in an age where violence was so rare that swearing off it couldn't possibly be too remarkable.

I could see them playing a role other than simply the permanent gai'shain thing, but one thing is clear is that the Aiel have to have a purpose other than battle. There has to be another way for them to earn honor, or ji'e'toh falls apart. If they want to remain cohesive, finding a role to play like the one they played in the Age of Legends is probably necessary.

The only way I can see it coming together is if Tuon sacrifices the damane for her Empire. And thereby we get to Egwene and the Oaths. And Rand binds the nine moons to serve him. He has that Age of Legends knowledge, and he will probably compel (not Compel) Tuon to swear an Oath to him, one way or another.
Theresa Gray
317. Terez27
I wonder how long we will have to wait for the big announcement. 5 more hours? I usually don't get the chance to make theories that will be settled within a matter of days. It's exciting. :D
Anthony Pero
318. anthonypero
EDIT: Double post.
Anthony Pero
319. anthonypero
I'm a big fan of Demotivational posters. So I made one for @LeighDB to hang on her computer screen :) What do you guys think?


Family/work safe, as always.

I couldn't find a high rez version of this image, so I'm sorry for the
pixelization. If anyone has a high rez version of this image, please
contact me through my shoutbox.
Anthony Pero
320. anthonypero

But then, in Nicola's Foretelling, the land is still divided by the Return. The Guardians balancing the Servants implies to me that they are working together,

I never read the word balance as working together... I read it as they were the same number, i.e., held the same amount of power, balanced each other out.

And if, at this point, Rand hasn't won the Last Battle yet, then The Two still need to be made As One.

The Two could refer to Rand and Lews Therin's integration. Nicola's prophecy starts with The Great Battle done but the world not done with battle... I always thought Great Battle refered to the Last Battle.
Theresa Gray
321. Terez27
pero@320—A lot of people say that about the Guardians and the Servants, but again, it's one of the main themes of the series that men and women should work together. And it just so happens that the plot is inching in that direction. Another thematic element (of many): Egwene set Logain free. And Nynaeve Healed him. Whose side do you think he is on?

A lot of people also say that about Rand and Lews Therin. It doesn't fit for a few reasons.

For one, Min says 'you and another man'. Lews Therin is not 'another man'—Rand said they were not two men and never had been. (Let's not get into a Lews Therin debate.) For another, Lews Therin did not 'die' on Dragonmount. Min says that one dies, and the other does not. If anything, Lews Therin is more alive than he was before, since Rand is no longer suppressing those memories. And finally, the wording of Min's viewing is linked to the Rand-Moridin bond in two important ways. She says that they 'touched, and seemed to merge'. Rand describes his experiences with Moridin thus: 'It had been a strange sensation, as if he were … touching … the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction, to touch him again.' And there is a foreshadowing of the merge, way back in TEOTW Chapter 24, 'Flight Down the Arinelle'.
He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.
I think Lews Therin is a red herring. It's the first thought Rand has when Min tells him of the viewing, but right after that is when he meets Moridin in Shadar Logoth, and we start getting clues in the next book about their bond.

As an aside, I've actually theorized that Moridin bonded Rand with an adaptation of the Warder bond. RJ has said that it is also a little wonky when one man bonds another, sort of like how it is with Elayne and Birgitte, but different because they are men. Women mirror each other...but men fight for dominance. Very stereotypical, and very RJ. :)

Finally, as to the Great Battle...everybody believes it means Last Battle. That's what you're supposed to think. But there are many, many clues suggesting otherwise, such as the ones I discussed already—Rand's continuing importance, the percipitous state of the future, etc.—and others. The Great Battle probably refers to the Battle of Caemlyn, which is shaping up to be a worthy Arthurian parallel. It will probably tie into the second Seanchan attack on the White Tower, since Tar Valon is also a Camlann parallel.

Egwene's dream of Logain suggests that Logain will rise to power over the Asha'man after Rand's death. Presumably Taim will have been defeated at that point, and Elaida's Foretelling about the Black Tower will have been fulfilled completely. That's another reason why it seems likely that Logain and Egwene will come together, aside from the thematic elements I mentioned earlier.
322. sleepinghour
Question for those in the know: is the written content in the WoT ARCs or galley copies any different from the retail version? Any changed lines or new/missing parts?

I own a few ARCs of other books, and they don't seem any different from the retail version (as far as I can tell), but reviewers were asked to make sure any quoted text matched with the final version.
John Schick
323. Kafmerchant
Sleepinghour @ 322

For the various versions that I have of this series, the results are all over the place, here are few examples:

A lot of the pre-publication versions I have such as tGH, tDR, FoH, WH and KoD have no obvious noticeable differences from the retail versions (although I haven’t read through each in great detail so as to not damage them).

The galley for tSR has a prologue of approx. 1.5 pages that was integrated into the first chapter of the finished book.

The advance version (2 book set) for LoC has line edits, handwritten notes including some chapter titles written in and notes of what icon is to be used for certain chapters.

For PoD, the book I have is labeled as an advance uncorrected bound manuscript that includes tons of changes: many, many line edits, actual chapter revision #s, and in one spot, a chapter was moved to a different sequence in the book, and that’s just what I noticed scanning through it quickly a few years ago.

My intention always has been, if/whenever I get the time to do a detailed review of each book, but that maybe just a pipe dream as I own a small business that consumes my life.

I started discussing some of this with Bob Kluttz of Encyclopedia-Wot a few years ago in order to try get some info posted on-line, but I don’t have the time to do the work nor the space or skills to post the info.

Hope this helps a little.

Paul Long
324. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Theresa Gray
325. Terez27
Kafmerchant@323—I admit your posts were glazing my eyes over as I'm not much of a collector, being broke all the time and whatnot. But that is an amazing bit of info about TSR. I've always found the approach to be rather odd in comparison to the rest of the series. Not only is there no prologue, but the wind hangs around for quite a bit, and what he did at the beginning of Chapter 9 is pretty unique too. I'm going to put this whole conversation in the interview database, just for that tidbit. If you'd like to post reviews of each book one day, I would put them all in there. It's designed to be a database of all non-canon canon, so to speak, which is of course usually in the form of interviews, hence the name. But there are exceptions.

Caveatar@324—I assume you are referring to Graendal's thoughts in TGS. I think this is more of an observation of posture, facial expression, etc. than physical resemblance. Many people have interpreted it in the same way as you, but their physical descriptions are actually quite different.
Paul Long
326. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Ron Garrison
327. Man-0-Manetheran
re. travyl @ 269, Terez27 @ 271 and Wetlandernw @ 272:

“RLW” Wow, it is so cool to discover I created a thread acronym. I feel imortalized - well, just for a minute or two anyway.

I am amazed how huge these threads have become. By the time I catch up from the postings over the last 24 hours, I’m out of time and must switch back to RL — which is happening 5-4-3-2-1-NOW! >>>>>>>>>>>> *
Paul Long
328. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Theresa Gray
329. Terez27
Caveatar@326—They're both tall, but other than maybe general body shape I think that's the only similarity. Moridin has black hair and bright blue eyes, with a very square jaw, while Rand has red hair and gray-blue eyes and presumably a normal jaw. And nice eyebrows. As for Mirror Worlds...I doubt it. Too deus ex machina, and there are other options for how they might discover how to seal the Bore. If he visits Mirror Worlds to figure it out, most readers would feel cheated.
Theresa Gray
330. Terez27
@Caveatar, to address your earlier edit: The Dark One is a constant in all worlds. If he is sealed in one, he is sealed in all.
331. sleepinghour
Kafmerchant @ 323:

Thank you for providing such a detailed answer! As a HCFF, I find that sort of thing fascinating. It would be great to hear more about the changes (removed content is especially interesting--I remember Brandon talking about a scene with Slayer that never made it into the finished book), but I understand that would be a very time-consuming project. I'll keep an eye out for ARCs and galleys on eBay since that seems to be the place to find them. Again, thanks for all the info.

On a completely somewhat unrelated note, another interesting case I read about was where a foreign ASoIaF translator had been given an earlier draft from GRRM, so the translated edition had scenes that never made it into the English edition. This is probably not very common, but I found it interesting nonetheless.
I think I did Sparker and Learner. I not sure though. I remember I was on my commenting from my phone and I didn't want tap out the proper name. I just can't remember if I subconsciously pilfered it from read memory or not. I don't remember seeing it before.

@Caveatar no no, what I figured out I'm not telling until I research it more. So... *stickmytongueout*

Paul Long
333. Caveatar
@ 330Terez27

Well dammmit! I KNEW I had guessed right, I had perfect confidence
in my idea, I just KNEW it..........yet I wasn't quite sure. (Charlie Brown)
"Headdesk, Facepalm".

Thank you Terez.
Sealed in One, Sealed in All. Free in One, Free in All.

The whole freaking creation is waiting on One of these guys to seal ol'
Darkie away.
My God! I hope All those poor bastards aren't going through the same shit our beloved Savior is going through.

I meant that string of alliteration. I was not just trying to be 'cute' with those lines.
You have much impressive information on your links.
So, now to come up with ANOTHER faultless theory which will shatter
like a glassware shop hit with a ton of C5.

Oh well, I made my first wrong guess when I was very small. I thought if I screamed loud enough I could make my mother do what I wanted.
Boy! did she ever convince me NOT!

Edit to add Terez reference.
Paul Long
334. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Paul Long
336. Caveatar
Sealed in One, Sealed in All. Free in One, Free in All.
Apparently there is no Real World from which all others are
How the hell can this be?
I have denied the possibility of all of them being equal in
importance and priority of origin. All but one of them
seemingly MUST be a reflection of the REAL world.

Terez has balefired my former belief in the possibility of Mirror World solutions.
But I am undaunted. Wrong but undaunted.
There is a demonstration of a thing coming into existence, consisting of multiple components, all forming the whole in one fell swoop.
A circle of people, lined up behind each other in a complete circle all sit down at the same time. Each person sits on the knees of the person behind. They form ONE creation, all equal, all necessary for survival.
If ONE of them stands, the construction fall.

..........and I have to break off. Computer for neighbor being picked up.
Paul Long
337. Caveatar
......and I have to break off. Computer for neighbor being picked up.

And an accidental double post saved my place.

They form ONE creation, all equal, all necessary for survival.
If ONE of them stands, the construction falls like a circle of dominoes.
The seated circle forms a continuous construction.
The Wheel and all alternate worlds do so as well.
If Darkie destroys the pattern in ONE of them he destroys it Everywhere.
If ONE of the seated components is removed the entire thing, the entire pattern, falls apart.

That is one HELL of a blacksmith puzzle.
Even if it isn't right I would love to see such a blacksmith puzzle.

/me smells the smoke from a forge and the sweat of a smith.
Shakes head at RJ.

James Hogan
338. Sonofthunder
Terez - well played. Great Mistress, you are indeed worthy of your title.

(And this news is amazing. SO can't wait to see the cover)
Alice Arneson
339. Wetlandernw
Terez @335 - I have never been happier to see a theory proven true. Well done! :)
Don Barkauskas
340. bad_platypus
Wetlandernw @312:
Which rather begs the question, doesn't it: is it better to die from the sparking effects as a teen, or live 300-400 years with a collar and leash, and no will of your own?
Actually, since they're not Oath Rod-bound, based on the example of the Kin it's really 600+ years, unless the a'dam has a life-shortening property we don't know about. Because sul'dam are used in battle, there would be some mortality, but in general they'd live a long time. This just further emphasizes your point---sucks to be them.
341. Faculty Guy
Back to the post-LB situation with Seanchan, Aiel, and our guys . . .

Far from a well-thought Theory, but I wonder how seriously the "Death of Tuon" title is to be taken. For example, is Mat still married now? I mean, the prophecy was that he would marry the "Daughter of the Nine Moons," which he did. Nothing about him being married to the Empress of the Seanchan!

I wonder if Mat and "Tuon" could go separate ways b/c The Empresss decides she is not married (since she's no longer Tuon the D of NM).
Alice Arneson
342. Wetlandernw
ZEXXES @314 - Well, if you don't tell anyone what it was, you'll never be able to prove you were right. :)

@several - I hate to make unsubstantiated comments like this, but doing research on an iPad on a slow network is... painful. Still, I thought we were given several mentions of Moridin seeming to increasingly resemble Rand. If no one else can substantiate or disprove this, I'll look it up when I have a real computer and/or my books.
Theresa Gray
343. Terez27
@Wetlander—I can't prove a negative, but the Graendal comment is the only one I recall. I've only read TOM once, though, not counting the digging I've done in it looking for particular quotes. I'm on the way there in my reread. I did, however, type close to half of it. :) And I typed about half of TGS too.
Paul Long
344. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Sam Mickel
345. Samadai
Caveatar @344

That is awesome. I would have loved to see that. I know what I believe and I have faith that what I believe is true. Even on the slimmest remotest chance that it is not true(which I don't believe) I live my life like I should.

Also, I am happy you caught up with us and are now posting. You bring a fresh idea to all of us, and that is exactly what makes these rereads so great
Martyna Berek
346. missbee
Amazing how much discussion you can miss in a day or so, wow.

The suldam leashing debate -
Over time this discussion has got so involved and, um... enthusiastic, that whenever it came up, my eyes would glaze over whilst I automatically skimmed the post until I hit a different topic.
thanks to Wetlander, Caveatar and J.Dauro I have been cured.
Well, mostly. At least I now understand what exactly causes the arguments, sort of, I think.
Thank you for re-capping the basics and thanks to up2stuff for sticking his head above the parapet in the first place.

Cav @ 279 I stand in awe of your skills

@293 LOL and LOL again

anthonypero @ 320
I agree with you on the Servants and the Guardians phrase, ie. interpret it to mean they are balanced in numbers/power.
And this does not necessarily mean that either is against the Light side.
Just as in the past the arguments over how to seal the bore resulted in a male / female division, so could the Servants and Guardians disagree now. I can see the use of the oath rod becoming a bone of contention for example. Nor can I imagine either relinquishing control to the other, so I would speculate that after the LB they continue to work separately, with their separate institutions adding to the teetering effect.
It is the failure of men and women to work together that is one of the themes here and I suspect this will continue to the end, at least to some degree.
Theresa Gray
347. Terez27
The Kafmerchant/TNH conversation is recorded here. And I've added Wetlander's bit to Brandon's DKS post.

In other news, Peter downloaded Brandon's Facebook comments in a very nice, easy-to-search format. He rocks. So eventually the Twitter log will be more complete.
Kimani Rogers
348. KiManiak
Cave@344 - A friend of mine in college had a similar t-shirt. You can order something similar here if you like. Probably a lot cheaper than a billboard :-)
Chris R
349. up2stuff
Cave 336

I seem to remember an explanation, most likely by Verin that the Mirrors are possible alternatives to "Our" world and the one instory. They all have varying degrees of plausibility, i.e. the one from Great Hunt was unlikely or a faint possibility. Because of this, it looked "washed out" and distance perspective was off from the corner of the eye. It was also why Rand could get ahead of Fain.

Rather than your circle analogy, think of a number of parallel lines. We are the "true one" in the middle. The outer ones are further away from the true one and less likely. The Creator, Pattern, DO, his prison, the Dragon, and possibly Moridin are constants in all of them. Since they are all connected, the DO is imprisoned in all of them.

I seem to remember the rest of the explanation being that TAR was the common thread or threads that lay across all of these possiblities, connecting them. IIRC, that is why some suspect that part of the Last Battle will happen in TAR and be a key component in resealing the Bore. If the DO is imprisoned in all, the BORE has to be resealed in all.
Uh, in order for Team Light to win, that is.

Now, for your analogy, if one stands up or moves, they all collapse...there is still a case to made because if the DO is freed in one, He is freed in all. When you criss cross a thread across several others, much like a loom, you get fabric or the Age Lace. Releasing the DO would be like pulling a thread from the fabric and begin unravelling everything.

Now, if this is more or less the summary put forth by Verin or someone else, I hope I did it justice. If it is just something I imagined, and cobbled together from bits and pieces, well I submit it for discussion because, I like it.
Cameron Tucker
350. Loialson
I was digging through your awesome QA's, and I realized something. I'd done a Qand A with Brandon at a Alloy of Law signing recently (all questions were WOT related from posters here), and I'd posted it to this re-read. (I forget where, and don't care to search through it all :P)

Do you want the typed transcript to add to that database?

I have it typed up in a word doc and can email it to you, or post it again somewhere if you like.

As of a few days ago, it wasn't in that QandA database, and I'd love to add it to the pool of questions.

And props to guessing right on the cover art :), I'm also very happy with the MW choice, as he did a fantastic job on tWoK.
Anthony Pero
351. anthonypero
Whelan's Melaine Rawn covers are my favorite in all of SF/F.
Anthony Pero
352. anthonypero
I thought I would at least get a gawffaw from someone at @319. Must be losing my touch!
Leigh Butler
353. leighdb
anthonypero @ 319:

Wow, my own Demotivational poster! That made me laugh, thank you!
Paul Long
354. Caveatar
@348 KiManiac

Thanks for the link. Oh yeah, some church group paid about
5000 bucks a year for those two signs. Teeshirt would be much cheaper.

@352 AnthonyPero.
I guffawed I just hadn't replied.

@349 up2stuff

Thanks. Good info.
Your comment is one more step in what I am trying to grasp
The intersecting lines and such are a puzzle type known to me.
If they are all in place you can throw the collection on the floor
and they are interlocked. Pull one of the things free and the whole
damn thing is in flinders. A Blacksmith puzzle melded with a Webster's
I am still grasping it. I will get it. And I will walk from Nevada to
Carolina to BEG to verify it with RJ's Notes.

RJ was... Hell I don't know how to describe it. I will go into a mode where the thinking is different.
Be back in a while.
Nobody leave the room. :D

Paul Long
356. Caveatar
Deleted Master Smith post Cav
Alice Arneson
357. Wetlandernw
Terez @343 - Yeah, that was poorly worded. Proving a negative is dicey at best. :) Mostly I was offering the opportunity for someone who had too much time on their hands, to go through a whole bunch of text and see if they could/couldn't find anything.

I think what was probably foremost in my mind was this one, from the TGS prologue:
…He stood against the mantel, back mostly to her. He seemed to be staring at nothing, just looking at the black stones of the far wall. Strangely, he looked a great deal like al’Thor – of whom she had numerous sketches via her spies – when he stood like that.
I can't help thinking there was at least one more, but I certainly can't find it tonight. Oh well. From that paragraph, it seems the similarity is either in his stance, or mostly from a particular angle. It can't be personality issues, since she refers to sketches; IIRC, she hasn't actually had face-to-face contact with Rand, has she? This all proves... not much.

anthony - like everyone else, I liked it but failed to comment. :)
Caveatar, that was well done. And all that is done is well done. For the work of the children could not be done without the work of the Lord. For the Lords great work was bringing unto life his children. And His work was well done. And so all work by his children cannot be but well done. The Lord smileth upon all His children's works and yet I feel no worry saying that I feel the Lord smiling a little brighter upon you Paul Long for a work well done.

You know it occurs to me that Rand has alot more power than we are inclined to believe. It is only due to his character that he has not used so obvious a weapon.

I don't know or remember whether there is anything involving Bloodprice in the Wheel of Time universe, but I feel Rand could ask as a condition for his sacrifice the freeing of Damane or any other enslaved people. He could do the ol'

"If you cannot acquiesce to my request, I will simply leave you to deal with the Dark One on your own. "

And then say nothing. They'd argue. Then they'd threaten. Then they might even plead. All the while he should simply say nothing. And then when the Girls finish pulling on their braids and Elayne is pouting and Fortuona is finished twittering cramps into her fingers, simply say...

"You have one hour to comply" and then walk away.

That would be Awesome.... because you know... What are they gonna do about it! To his and all of there knowledge he's gonna die anyway. So why not.

Tess Laird
360. thewindrose

AP - I loved your demotivational poster. Then I had to look at your link to all the canned ones. I found one for Rand and LTT:)


**Edit - Actually, the more I think about it, the howl reminds me of subwoofer and the 'room for more' translates to the bunker - it's our new bunker poster!;)
Paul Long
361. Caveatar
@223 Zexxes

"Thoughtful, respectful Restraint is all I ask."

A very thoughtful Caveatar respectfully approaches Zexxes with
a Restraint device known as a strait jacket.
Finally locking him in it, Caveatar remains thoughtful while
remaining respectful of Zexxes."

How's that Zex??? :D

Oh crap. Thoughtfully and respectfully releases Zexxes from the restraint in order to thank him for this post @358. You did mean 356 I think?
I will take all the smiling brighter upon me that I can get.

Anthony Pero
362. anthonypero
windrose@360... how in the heck did you put that in the post??? Do img tags work here?
Paul Long
363. Caveatar
@346 missbee
Cav @ 279 I stand in awe of your skills
Missbee @ 346 ,

I bow in gratitude before the gracious lady.


And if I guessed wrong this time I will shoot myself.
(with a can of compressed whipped cream of course, right in the mouth.)

Gee it is hard to find stuff when the thread gets this long. Ah what the hell. Most fun I have had in a long while has been lately on here.
Sam Mickel
365. Samadai
I got flagged as spam, so here is the link to the rereaders group over on Facebook, if anyone wants to join it please do. A little side note stating your Tor name wouldn"t hurt.

John Schick
366. Kafmerchant
Terez27 @ 325

Great call on the cover ! Below are a few other random bits.

There are so many small but interesting things in my WoT collection that I’d really like to share with anyone whom is interested (including books of course, but also have promo literature, and marketing materials such as posters, bookmarks, WoT “postcards” etc . The risk is that I’m seen as just showing off when my intent is far from it.

An example of promo literature is from a letter dated 15 Aug 1990 included with the tGH galley, from Eleanor Lang (Tor publicist) that states that tEotW “…was the first volume in The Wheel of Time, a six part series to be published by Tor Books.” The print run for tGH is stated as 200,000 copies in this letter.

Just to clarify that the tSR prologue in the advance uncorrected proof was called, “Seeds of Shadow” and started approx. halfway down the page and ended on the next page with just a single paragraph on that second page. The next (first) chapter was simply called “Seeds”.

While searching for something tonight I’ve found some items that may be of interest to you – I assume you have copies of the audio of the Budapest interviews ? Do you have the 2003 Toronto audio file ? Also found a word file with a list of interviews starting with Starlog in 1991, followed by letters by Carolyn Fusinato and ending with blog posts/interviews somewhere in 2006 with lots in between (the word file is 2M in size) ? I may also have a couple of old floppies, somewhere, with various old interviews and other miscellaneous files from the mid-late 90s although not sure if I can find anything that can read it …or if my memory of what may actually be on them is correct.

I’ll keep the offer to post additional content in mind for the future.
I also found what I was looking for – a list, in excel, of chapter revision #s and titles from the PoD manuscript – do you want this ? And if so, where should I send it (gmail account) ?

Sleepinghour @ 331
No problem, just the tip o’the proverbial iceberg, happy to share.
Last week, ebay had 2 or 3 proofs listed including tGH – good luck if they’re still up !

Cameron Tucker
367. Loialson
@ 365.Samadai

I requested to join the FB group. I've no idea how to do a "side note" though, or any commenting in the group page 'til I get okayed to join.

Do you know who accepts entries, so I can let them know who I am?
Alice Arneson
368. Wetlandernw
Loialson - Samadai is the admin, so he'll see your post here and get it sorted. :)
Theresa Gray
369. Terez27
Loialson@350I found it. You see, if I know a report exists, and about when it might have been posted, I can find it. I've found lots of stuff that doesn't even exist any longer, and your post was only a few months ago. :p Now as for Wetlander, I have no idea where she drops her little tidbits.

Wetlander@357—Yeah, that was the Graendal passage I had in mind. But don't you think she would have mentioned if his hair had changed color, or his bone structure had changed, etc? This might be a slight bit of accidental hyperbole on Brandon's part, sort of like how Graendal appeared to see Aran'gar's Compulsion weaves, since she described them. But I would definitely be interested to know if other such passages exist.

thewindrose@360—That's beautiful. Especially the wolf allusion.

Kafmerchant@366—As for the cover theory, in retrospect I really blew that one. I should have known as soon as the release date was announced, since I'd already been discussing the possibility when we heard that DKS had passed, and I'd already wondered how they would pull it off considering Whelan's time restrictions. It's kind of like Verin. I'm rather proud that I was apparently the only one paying enough attention to even notice the blatant red herrings leading us to Alviarin as Keymaster, but that doesn't change the fact that I missed something that should have been intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer.

Don't worry about coming across as self-promoting. With me around, everyone looks modest. And we are a very self-promoting fandom, I gather. Part of the aim of the interview database is simply to promote fans. So many have given us their stories over the years. Your report is a bit of an exception, but still an important one to have, even though RJ felt icky about production details being known. These are pretty minor in the scheme of things—Brandon has revealed similar details, as sleepinghour mentioned—but we get them so rarely that I find them to be pretty exciting.

The TGH quote is very important IMO. We do have some details from RJ under the 'how many more books?' tag (see tag list; working on direct links) about how his perceptions of the length of the series evolved, but he did say that he 1) originally viewed it as one book, but 2) started to think of it as a trilogy, and then 3) arrived at six books in the process of hashing out terms of the contract with Doherty. There are some misconceptions floating around about that general process, so every bit of info we get adds clarity to the issue.

The titles of the TSR prologue and first chapter lead me to believe that the merging was already under discussion, because Harriet is not normally redundant in her chapter titles. If she repeats words in subsequent titles, she typically at least makes a significant distinction (e.g. "Dust on the Wind" followed by "Listen to the Wind", or "Into the Palace" followed by "Into the Deep"). It's possible that they released the 1.5-page prologue bit as a free promo in a TDR paperback? Or perhaps on the website? I will have to look into that. I assume that the prologue consisted of the Dain Bornhald and Suroth POVs?

I do have the Budapest audio. We transcribed it (ugh, I have question mark characters...which seems to be a browser/OS variation and we can't pin it down) and I posted the link to the audio in the first entry. I only have one short report from Toronto in 2003, and I'd love to have an audio file, even if it's a reading (we don't transcribe those, obviously). If it was a reading I'd probably host it and link it on Réal Heppelle's report.

As for the Word file, that sounds similar to what sleepinghour has, and what Team Jordan has used in the past. She has sifted through that particular file and given me a few details I was missing, and she's also great at tracking down things to the point that I think I should add her to the research credits for the database. She's found quite a few foreign-language things—including a Russian report she just linked for me!—and she even translated some.

But of course, it's a distinct possibility that your file is entirely different. You can see what we have and don't have on this reverse-chronological list, but I certainly don't expect you to do that. If you have time for such things, I'd rather you tell us more about your production copies! So please email it to me at terez27 AT gmail DOT com. As for your floppies...they're probably priceless! I think my dad has an old Compaq somewhere in his house, but that one only reads floppy floppies. :)

I'd love to have the list of revision numbers for TPOD, as long as you don't mind if I post it publicly. Honestly, I'd like it either way, but that is what I would normally do with such information.

Thanks again!
James Hogan
370. Sonofthunder
The only thing I can remember about Moridin's similarity to Rand is how they begin to mirror each other in pose...didn't they both stand with their hands behind their back in the same way? But I suppose this is just a further mirroring, not an actual likeness in physical appearance. I do love Moridin's scenes in recent books. I think one of my favorite scenes in TGS was his and Rand's fireside chat...brilliant piece of writing right there.

Also, windrose...the bunker poster is awesome!!
Theresa Gray
371. Terez27
SonofThunder—I believe you're thinking of Moridin=Taim. A loony theory, to be sure. :D
Cynthia Ahmar
372. tenkuu
Wetlandernw@312: You really should read it, it's a great series. Sure there are parallels to WoT, but not so similar that they take away from the originality and enjoyment of the series. And regarding more sparkers surviving with the Seanchan, I was specifically referring to the fact that it's mentioned at least once, in the beginning of the series, that the ability to channel is dying out compared to how many used to be born with some ability to channel. At least the Seanchan's ways find every sparker before her ability can kill her. There's no question that the a'dam needs to go, but their organized system that makes it so they find every sparker needs to be applied by Aes Sedai, such as testing girls on a yearly basis in every city of every country. Now though, I just find myself wondering what happens to male channelers in Seanchan society. The Domination Band is obviously not that well-known and moreover, dangerous for the ones wearing the bracelets. I just wonder if their male channelers are even found, and if so what is done with them.

Terez27@321: I'm going to refer to the Sword of the Truth series and mention that in it, one of the major themes is that prophecy is meant to be interpreted only by prophets. Words that sound like they mean one thing often in fact mean something else. In other words, the words of a prophecy shouldn't be taken literally. Especially for Min in the case of WoT, she can only describe things to people as she sees them. To her, Lews Therin probably seemed like "another man", and it probably seemed like he "died" in that vision. But then Min also mentions a merging, with one man disappearing, and I believe she mentions it as an update to the "one dies, one lives" vision. If I recall correctly, she seemed relieved to know Rand would not risk "dying" after all.

Kafmerchant@366: Being an anime fan, and specifically a huge fan of Yoroiden Samurai Troopers, an older anime from the late 80s I got my nick from, I can understand your enthusiasm. With most anime, but especially older series, the truly cool merchandise that doesn't get released anywhere other than Japan (such as a rare CD or audio cassette tape for example) becomes really hard to find except on auction sites, and even then you'll find far more stuff on japanese ones such as Yahoo! Auctions Japan. Not many people have gone to the extent that I have to get the rare stuff that I do own, so I do want to share it with everyone when I do find it. How do you find your WoT stuff btw? Auctions, conventions or somewhere else? Since WoT is my #1 in fantasy books just as YST is my #1 in anime, I'd really be interested in knowing. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm definitely interested in anything WoT related that you wanna share. :) If you could send me those mp3s and other files you mention too, btw, my email is cyndane01@sympatico.ca :)
Anthony Pero
375. anthonypero
I dunno, I kind of liked the whole "forked" prophecy thingie. It fits better with multiverse theory. I like how people can get tripped up over prophecies that come from "branches" that had been proven false ages ago.

I also liked the Richard and Kahlan storyline. Obviously anyone who find Objectivisim offensive will want to stop reading the series after the second book.
Tess Laird
378. thewindrose
AP at 362 - Depends on the images format. Canned GIF images you can just copy and paste(premissions granting of course). Other types can be posted through the link on the comment box. Truth be told, I had an easier time when we could do our own bbcode here for some things - although I will say that the text editing features are nice.
Will we get emoticons here soon? They are in use on the forums here.

Theresa Gray
379. Terez27
@Loialson again—A couple of questions about your report, which I have entered here:

1. That note about the place where the Maradon battle happened not actually being called a 'temple' in the book—was that your note or an aside by Brandon? I'm thinking you distinguish between parentheses and brackets, but I don't want to assume, especially in this case.

2. "His power had grown so powerful"—Did Brandon really say that?

If you would be willing to share your audio, that would be awesome. We like to post it when possible. (I could host it if you email it to me.) I could also clean up your transcript if necessary (which would of course not affect your own comments). I wouldn't put all the stumbles in, though. Sometimes I put them in, but it depends on whether I think it's relevant for context. Sometimes an 'um...' can be important. :) Sometimes it depends on my mood, too, and what I find to be amusing.
Sam Mickel
380. Samadai
Loialson @ 367, When I get home tonight I will add you to the group.

I think we need a little help getting to the 4 hunny. I guess I could get there by doing one word posts. ;)
Paul Long
383. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Paul Long
386. Caveatar
And while the opportunity exists:

I miss comments directed to me and I hate to not reply to someone who has sent me a message, either of agreement, disagreement, acknowledgement, or damnation to the abyss.
Is there any setting on the board that could pop up a notification telling me that a reply, mention, whatever directed to/at me had been posted.
I have reread the thread at times and found an edited earlier post which
included such a comment.

Do any of you have the quick answer?

Theresa Gray
387. Terez27
Caveatar—I find that CTRL-F works pretty well. ;)
Paul Long
388. Caveatar
@ 387 Terez 27
Good one. As always full of information! :D
(And a bit of piss and vinegar as well. You remind me of one of my (5) sisters. I don't dare give her an opening! She is on me like a duck on a junebug. )
Problem is, my weird looking Nick is sometimes mentioned as
"Caveeater" or "cave(whatever)" or "Cav" which almost everyone shortened it to when I used to post on the old Wayward Avatar forums.
(Dedicated to the Ultima Computer game.)

Paul Long
390. Caveatar
The OTHER problem is that a search for "Caveatar" finds all my own posts , twice, Nick and sigline. I usually don't really find those as interesting.

Edit 'as interesting'
Theresa Gray
391. Terez27
Then just CTRL-F 'cav' and you'll be straight. ;)
Paul Long
392. Caveatar
The only good thing about it is the 'forced' reread causes me to read slower and I note things I had missed before.

Anthony Pero
393. anthonypero
To answer your question, no... this site does not support the @mention feature. That would be nice. But it does not. Threads and comments are what are known in the web development business as Flat Comments, rather than Threaded Comments. So, there's no way for the system to know that someone was responding to you specifically.
Paul Long
394. Caveatar
@ 391
! Again The Theorist jumps right to it. How did you guess that I do EXACTLY THAT? You tempt me to believe your theories. :D

As long as no one uses the word 'cave' or 'cavitate', or such.
Theresa Gray
395. Terez27
@pero—It's typically called 'linear', isn't it? I also wish you could subscribe to your own shoutbox or subscribe to Leigh's posts, etc.
Paul Long
396. Caveatar
Thank you. I will stop looking.
I tell a lie. I didn't Start looking but lazily asked for someone to do it for me. :D :D
At any rate.
GO for the 4HUNNY chilluns.

Theresa Gray
397. Terez27
I have been wondering for a while what this 'hunny' thing is.
Martyna Berek
398. missbee
@ Terez27
Thanks, you've just managed to answer my question just as I was typing it out. Are you psychic by any chance?
(I was wondering if you could somehow subscribe to Leigh's posts)

Edit : I really should learn to spell...
Paul Long
399. Caveatar
@ The Theorist

Is there any way to download your entire L Space collection?
I would like to have the entire thing in a manner to find all the stuff without relink/redownload. My connection is sometimes a little

Theresa Gray
400. Terez27
I think they probably don't have that feature—to subscribe to Leigh's posts—because it would crash their servers if all the regulars clicked at the same time.

PS—Nope, no download. Maybe one day, but not any time soon.
Sam Mickel
401. Samadai
Terez, we just play to get every hundredeth comment, the winner gets the glory. O_o

And this time it was you. :D
Paul Long
402. Caveatar
@ 398
That is a base canard. She is NOT psychotic! Just a little short with the lesser blessed mortals. :D
(I know you didnt say psychotic)

Theresa Gray
403. Terez27
@Samadai—Do I win then? I also got the first post on the Whelan thread. I've never done that before, but I figured it was appropriate.
Theresa Gray
404. Terez27
@missbee—Don't forget wondering/wandering. ;)
James Hogan
405. Sonofthunder
Wait, how are we already almost at 400? This is slightly ridiculous.
Another random note - I really like that we don't do threaded comments here...it keeps everyone involved in the conversation people don't go away to their own nested conversations.

Edit - and since I pressed "preview" - we have four more comments. Awesomeness.
Paul Long
406. Caveatar
Something that Terez doesn't know?
Bookmark this one folks. It is a rara avis.

"I have been wondering for a while what this 'hunny' thing is."

The University of the Wot reread is infested with Poo Bears.
These are little bears who go around looking for hunny and they are called 'Poo' Bears because when they don't get hunny they express disappointment by saying, "Poo!", just before ripping someone apart at the kneecaps and eating their feet.

They are lovable little guys, much more than ewoks so the regular students attempt to have a good supply on hand to pacify them.
And because, well, who can explain why a student does anything. It is beyond explaining.
when something like 4 hunny comes along, which you harvested, these little Poo Bears can be pacified with 4 hunny jars.

Poo Bears FTW!

Paul Long
407. Caveatar
@Samadai—Do I win then? I also got the first post on the Whelan thread.
I've never done that before, but I figured it was appropriate.
The first post , 1, is used to make the "...arrows of outrageous fortune " mentioned by one W. Shakespeare in the tale of The Great Dane.
(A story that Subwoofer .....nah. n/m)

They are useful if one has suffered 'outrageous fortune' sometimes known as "shit happens" and wishes to drive it through someone's heart like a vampire stake.
That is my best guess.

Martyna Berek
408. missbee
@ Terez27 - Heh, fixed
I'm dreading the Iturlade Ituralde chapters, for some reason I can never remember which one it is
Sorcha O
409. sushisushi
tenkuu@372 I have a suspicion that Seanchan policy is probably even more effective in culling the channeling ability out of their gene pool than that of Randland. Although 3/4 of female sparkers die in Randland and a proportion of the rest become Aes Sedai and generally don't have children, you still have a proportion of women who can pass on the magical genetics, not to mention all the untaught learners who carry on as normal.

In Seanchan, pretty much ALL of the sparkers are identified, but because of the taboo on damane, they just don't reproduce. They may live for 600 odd years, so the process would be slow, but they are effectively cut out of the gene pool. It's not clear whether professional sul'dam can get married the same way other serving officers can, but if they do, they would keep reproducing as normal. I get the impression that Tuon's sul'dam training means that she has the skills but isn't on sul'dam 'active duty' as such, largely because her Imperial position would supersede that. We don't have any mentions of Seanchan with sul'dam for mothers, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist, the same way that Egeanin's mother was a Captain.

Anyway, I reckon that the culling of channeling ability is probably even worse in Seanchan than Randland. Only the Sea Folk and the Aiel seem to have avoided it, due to their female channelers remaining integrated into their respective societies.

Martyna Berek
410. missbee
Dammit! I got all excited when I noticed 'NEXT' appear in the navigation bar below Leigh's comments.
But it's not there yet.
All stocked up with rum truffles and waiting...
Cameron Tucker
411. Loialson
@ Terez

Posted in your shoutbox, shoutbox me back for a reply, and I'll send you my email if you like for the audio recording of the QA.
Cameron Tucker
412. Loialson
Edit- Hey! First dbl post glitch for me! Well this is interesting....
Anthony Pero
413. anthonypero

There is an RSS feed of Leigh's blog posts, Tor just doesn't know about it:

John Massey
417. subwoofer
Holy....! Well, just holy! Terez comes on the scene and we break 4 hunny, easy peasy. It figures;)

Things at theoryland on hiatus? Uni? :)

@Kafmerch- been meaning to comment but RL has been slippery these days. First off, $50-150 is wayyyyy more than what I paid for the durn book back in the day so I'm cryin' cause that is what I'm going to have to pay for a copy now. May not be a big deal for some oil barons but I am partial towards the cheap side of things. And that is money outta "my baby needs a new pair of shoes" fund, or I could sponsor a child for 5 months.

EBay? Well, there is always "buyer beware" goin' on over there. I had some success picking up truck parts that are rare, and some Polish stuff for my wife, and a camera battery, but unless new in box, condition has been sketchy.
Anthony Pero
418. anthonypero
I buy stuff on eBay all the time... I've had to return one item. Guess it depends what you buy. Mine is mostly music related equipment. Most musicians are notorious for taking ridiculously good care of their gear.
Terry McNamee
419. macster
@113 Man-o-Mantheren: Huh? Since when do we "know" or even suspect Joline, Edesina, or Teslyn is Black? Not that it isn't possible, I just didn't realize there was any reason to think so. If so, though, it can't be Teslyn--when Mat was going to rescue her from the Seanchan, and she tried to promise to do whatever he wanted as long as it didn't hurt the Tower, she was forced to cut off by the First Oath.

@114 missbee: Awesome points. I've recently started another re-read of the series and I too am constantly looking at everything Verin says and does in another light, now that we know for sure she was both of the Shadow and not.

@121 travyl: Very true, I doubt Verin had to reveal everything, and could indeed have justified all manner of things under loyalty to the Dark One vs. betrayal of Darkfriends, as well as keeping Lightsiders from being suspicious.

@120 thepupxpert: While Caveatar explained quite well what Leigh and others meant, I was also referencing Wortmauer's "O Fortuona" comment, which was referencing the Carmina Burana's "O Fortuna" chorus. That too, of course, is about Dame Fortune/Lady Luck.

@125 Giacomo: That pretty much matches my thinking.

@135 s'rEDIT: Yes. Yes it is.

@140 KiManiak: If you're right, that could explain why Sanderson has not mentioned Edorion or had him in a scene yet. And I know I shouldn't do this, but I can't help distrusting him because he's a Tairen; I've never really liked any of those lords thanks to how they all treated Rand and the commoners, with the only one who made me like him being Darlin.

You are probably right about Tuon viewing them more as tools and weapons; the reason I made the comparison I did is because of the in-book comparisons to animals--the damane being kept in kennels, and their training by both Tuon and other sul'dam being described similar to horse-training.

@154 travyl: I stand corrected, there are plenty of opportunities for Perrin to have learned the term. I was never really convinced he didn't; I just offered it in case, since I hadn't researched to be sure and I was more concerned with Mat who also was around Aes Sedai (and a lot more than Perrin--in Salidar, Ebou Dar, the whole trip with the three Aes Sedai, Tuon, and the sul'dam) so could have learned it.

And @158: Ooooo I never thought of that wrinkle! I hope it's true.

@Caveatar: Your poems are awesome. Thus is it written.

@173 chaplainchris: Very good point.

@175 up2stuff: *applauds*

@182 Cavetar: *applauds again*

@188 anthonypero: Agreed 100%.

@218 Zexxes: You're awesome.

@226 HArai: I am fairly sure he is saying he would only ruin their enjoyment if they ruin his and others'. In other words, as long as they are thoughtful and restrained, he will be too, but once they cross that line he will cross it in turn. So rather than a contradiction, it's a statement of intent predicated on someone else breaking the rule first. The Golden Rule.

@235 Caveatar: "intuitively obvious" LOL!

@Terez: All the books re-released with Whelan covers? *faints* Also, I completely agree with your theory about the "men merging" vision and its connection to Moridin. Just remains to be seen how the merger might happen and what the results will be.

@269 travyl: Good theory on how Tuon might have to channel.

@360 thewindrose: It could also apply to Perrin, Elyas, and the wolves.

@370 Sonofthunder: One of my favorite scenes too.
Anthony Pero
421. anthonypero
Terez27 said: and the conversation here is usually more...

Well, I won't presume to , but one word that doesn't fit is focused, lol.
Nadine L.
423. travyl
@365. Just visited the facebook site
(Not yet requested to join, because I don't use facebook that frequently)
- what are you doing there?
I don't quite grasp the intention, besides that it's nice to actually connect some of the names to real faces.
Eg: I mean seeing the "real" face of subwoofer, was quite revealing : )
Sam Mickel
424. Samadai
Travyl, yes, just connecting with each other. talk about different things etc. More than welcome to join.
219. HArai

As I said before in that very same post, my sentiment is not asking to refrain from criticizing. My sentiment Is to use restraint in the manner of the criticism. And as I said before in the very same post, that those who wish not to use restraint can count on me to defend BWS's honor in that he will most certainly not stoop so low as to defend himself. It would not be appropiate if he deemed it necessary anyway. For there are always nay-sayers, irritators and hecklers abroad, no matter who you are or what you do or say.

So I am taking it upon myself to dog them, as they dog BWS. If they lambast BWS, I will Lambast them. If they heckle or throw tomatoes, I will harass and throw eggs. They deserve no less than they give. And I intend to give more if they show it to be necessary.

Like I also said before, they are free to do as they please as long as they follow the rules of the Blog Masters and Tor. And so am I.

It comes down to Restraint. Respect. Honor. Compassion. And Appreciation. These people have shown that they lack at times some if not all of these.

I'm simply reminding them of their manners... so to speak.

And like I said before. If one doesn't have the where with all to understand that, then nothing I do or say or have said matters to those anyway.

Alice Arneson
428. Wetlandernw
@many re: criticizing Brandon, I thought this interview question (shamelessly copied from Terez's database) was quite enlightening. This is reported verbatim, from an interview on Jun 11th, 2007
KAIMI WENGER: You’ve been critical of, um, certain-other-authors for their negative interactions with fans. What is the proper relationship or interactions between an author and readers?

BRANDON SANDERSON: Ha! You've done your homework, I see.

My own philosophy is to look at the author as beholden to the people who pay him/her—and that is the public! In the old days, an artist would be supported by a wealthy benefactor. Nowadays, it hasn't actually changed all that much. That wealthy benefactor is now a group made up of the public who buy books.

I LOVE writing. It's the most amazing job I think I could imagine. The fact that the people who pay for my books support me in this addiction of mine is very humbling. I can do this, day by day, because of the generosity and encouragement of my readers. I feel, then, that I owe them something. Great books, first off. But, beyond that, I think I owe them respect. That means not calling them names or getting angry at them, even if they didn't like a particular book of mine. They paid for it, they pay for my family to eat, they have a right to tell me what they think of the job I'm doing.

Interestingly, he doesn't even imply that he will particularly cater to a certain interest group, but he won't speak disparagingly of their opinions either. Unlike us, sometimes. Of course, I think that we owe him something, too - not to unthinkingly adore everything he does, but to be at least courteous in our criticism.

(My apologies for not indenting the quotation, but with Safari on my iPad I don't get any of the format options.)
Theresa Gray
429. Terez27
As a side note, that interview is from July 2007, just before RJ died and obviously also before Brandon was picked for WoT.
432. Stubob
I'm just going to address the feeling on the release date. It seems a bit late and oddly timed (ie right before Holidays would feel more natural).

That said, I'm sure some fans may feel they literally may not survive till the last book. This reminds me of a letter Stephen King got from a fan of the Dark Tower series. He was on death row and he wanted King to try & wrap up the series to see how it ends!

I can understand both viewpoints.
Thomas Keith
433. insectoid
Last of the catch-up.

Mardi Gras: Saw that one coming. Hope you had a good time, Leigh. :)

Release date: Well golly, Leigh... that might be just enough time to finish the Re-read before drop date! Maybe. ::anotheryearAAARRRGGGHH::

Mat's ta'veren magnetism: Seems plausible... but as we all know, it could be Verin spouting a load of horse manure. I love how Mat doesn't believe it either.

"Saidared it": AARRRGGH. The second-most jarring Mat-ism in the book for me (behind that rant about women earlier).

"The Death of Tuon" I had the same reaction looking at the chapter title. ("Seriously???") But it fits in perfectly with the Seanchan culture. Not to mention it's an interesting pun. ::waves at Mis::
Also, I’ve just noticed that even though Tuon is dead and all and there is only Zuul Fortuona now...
This made me laugh for about 5 minutes. XD

432?! Holy cats and kittens... you guys/gals were so prolific last month! (sees one-word posts) And naughty. :P

meal @211/Cav @212: Thanks for getting my attention! You wouldn't believe how much I missed hanging with the Bunker Crowd.

Caveatar @235, 406 and many others: *laughs maniacally for another 10 minutes*

LOL... those demotivational posters are hilarious.

Theresa Gray
434. Terez27
The Death of Tuon—called it, before the book came out.
Anthony Pero
437. anthonypero
More Wheel less SoT please... It's almost as divisive as religion or politics... for pretty much the same reason, nowe that I think about it.
Theresa Gray
439. Terez27
Ahh, but you are not just choosing your own theories. You are choosing your own facts. That's quite a different thing, you know. It's difficult for me to show respect for people who reality-shop. Sorry.
Cynthia Ahmar
441. tenkuu
Terez27@439: That is your problem, right there: you mislabel theories as facts. Everything you ranted at me about is a theory, not a fact. You believe in it; I acknowledge its possibility but am not convinced by it. I'm open to the possibilities because all theories relating to the final book are still possible so far. Somehow you fail to accept that you're just as fallible as everyone else and feel the need to act all haughty towards someone with a different opinion from yours. Let me just tell you straight up: you will not browbeat me. People who behave the way you have towards me are simply disgusting, and I do not give in to bullying. Call it whatever you want, but that's what it is. You will not beat me into submission with your rude behavior. I'm sorry, but that's that.
Alice Arneson
442. Wetlandernw
tenkuu @441 - FWIW, Terez has probably just about memorized everything Brandon and RJ have said in interviews, blogs, Q&A, and what have you. She's organized every scrap of info she's found, labeled it with source data, and put it into an easily searchable database. So, yes, she's quite aware of the difference between the facts and the theories.

When someone comes up with a theory, there are several ways to approach it. One is to fling it out there off the cuff and see whether anyone can shoot it down. (We have a bunch of people here who do that, in part because it's the easiest way to find out if it makes sense.) At the opposite extreme, there are the people who study all the book text, the author statements, and the real-world mythologies and legends on which the author drew, and develop extremely well-thought-out theories on that basis. Terez is one of those. In addition, she posts her theories on theoryland, home of the hard-core fan freaks who live to invent and shoot down theories about the WoT. As a result, by the time you see it here, it's been through some pretty tough screening in terms of finding the holes.

This is not to say that her (or anyone else's) theories are always correct; I think she's been known to say that her percentage is nowhere near 100. (Right, Terez? Have you kept track?) On the other hand, she's been right quite a few times, too. The thing is, when a strong-minded person has an opinion, they think they're right. I mean, really, why would anyone but a noodle put forth an opinion they don't think is right? You yourself fall into that category, as do I, and Terez. The fact that our opinions clash sometimes is inevitable.

Terez and I have had some blazing rows on here from time to time, and I'm sure we will again. (But not about Cadsuane.) That's okay with me, because at the end of the day, however differently we believe on particular issues, we still both love this fantasy, and we can be friends just for that reason.

I learned two keys to enjoying my interactions here, which may or may not be of help to you as well. The first trick is to differentiate between the person and the opinion; fling all the grenades you want at the opinion, but never, ever at the person. (It's a fine line, and some people never do seem to get the hang of it.) The second trick is to confidently assume that they mean to do the same, and read their words based on that assumption if it is by any means possible. You might be wrong - they might really be hostile to you personally - but you're never in the wrong if you assumed the best instead of the worst. I've found that it's a lot easier than everyone filling their posts full of "no offense intended" and "I don't mean to be rude" - we're wordy enough here without that. Assume that they don't intend offense, and that they don't mean to be rude, and go with that. It's easier on the blood pressure, too. :)
Cynthia Ahmar
443. tenkuu
Wetlandernw@442: She's the one who's been calling theories "facts" and apparently not listening to a word I said because she was too busy getting her word in edgewise, or rather, shoving it in my face.

I never dismissed her theory, I acknowledge its possibility. But given that it's a theory about events in a book not yet published and doesn't sound very convincing to me, I am not a believer in her theory, and that's that. I've explained my own rather well, just as she has hers. On the Callandor thing, I'm still convinced that Tuon could never be part of a link to use it, for the reasons I gave. I don't mind being proven wrong by the final book if it turns out I was wrong after all, but there's no need for anyone to be a jackass about it. That's the difference between a discussion and an argument: civility.

I would love to assume that both you and her didn't mean to be rude the times when you came off that way, but if people do that and know they have offended, the natural thing is to apologize. It's happened to me and I've done it. There's no need to let your pride get in the way. Keep in mind though that I do know a personal attack from an attack on my opinion. I also know the difference between an attack on my opinion and a simple difference of opinions. Just read comment #439 and tell me that's not a personal attack. At the very least, comments like those are the best way to start a fight. And over a completely unproven theory, no less. My blood pressure is still fine, btw, I'm still young and I've always had a low one. It's hell to get up in the morning, in fact. :)
445. Freelancer
Please don't mistake me for someone who disrespects others.
Many things said here make me chuckle, that made me laugh right out loud.

Allow me to pontificate for a few moments. There is indeed a difference, a remarkably vast difference, between having a notion flit through the space between ones ears and proffering it as a theory, and studying the mythological, historical, cultural and racial source material of a story in order to deduce the most likely progression or conclusion of a story plot. A great many people do the first, and do so with that notion completely unrelated to any of the prior events of the story considered for continuity, constancy, or integrity of theme. A rare handful of people attempt to do the second, and Terez27 is far and away at the top of that list. There are story issues upon which she and I disagree, but I tell you now that her research, and the steps upon which she founds a conclusion, would pass a scientific test. Nobody is more thorough in their devotion to dissecting the particulars of WoT. I only wish people would put as much effort into their study of the Bible as folks such as she do with a fiction. I mention the extremes of theory source here because that is the crux of the point, but as an aside, many other regular readers and commentors suggest theories from positions somewhere between those two extremes, with a sense of the fit within the overall pattern of the story, and not necessarily a legalistic support structure for the concept.

Based upon the above, I assert that it is a logical fallacy to assume that every theory is as valid as every other theory, and to stand upon such a premise is to stand upon a foundation much less firm than shifting sand.

Fortuna Favet Fortibus!
Theresa Gray
446. Terez27

Nobody is more thorough in their devotion to dissecting the particulars of WoT.

I think Linda might be a little more devoted than I am, though she doesn't venture into plot theories very often. Most of her theorizing has to do with the parallels between WoT and our own legends and mythology. I really depend on her research in that area, though I often find myself seeing very different connections than she sees. Thanks for the vote, though. :D

I spent my childhood memorizing Bible verses. Now I'm an atheist, and I have arguments with my dad about the Bible, particularly as it relates to world politics. He probably wishes sometimes that he hadn't made me study it so hard!
Cynthia Ahmar
447. tenkuu
Terez27@444: So now it's the truth that just because I have an opinion that differs from yours, it's somehow inferior. You do love to pick fights, don't you?

Freelancer@445: That had pretty much nothing to do with the bit you were responding to... did you go off on a tangeant and lose track of it or something? Anyway, I'll repeat myself: I never dismissed her theories. That right there pretty much addresses what your comment is about. I'd like to repeat something else: in no universe does my having a theory different than Terez27's make it all right for her to be disrespectful. It's really as simple as that no matter what embellishments you like to put on it. I didn't disrespect her, and I expect the same kind of respect in return.
Theresa Gray
448. Terez27
Again, your opinions are not based in reality. And yes, I love picking fights with people who live in la-la land. I try to think of it as a kindness. A cultured one.
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
452. tnh
Tenkuu, the comment you've posted as #450 and #451 is not being held as spam.
Cynthia Ahmar
453. tenkuu
tnh@452: What then? I got the notification that comment #450 was being held for spam, so I reposted it as #451 and removed the link.
Irene Gallo
455. Irene
Hey guys,

We've tried to keep this on topic but we keep getting derailed. I'm going to close this thread. Let's all pick up the WoT conversation in the next installment.
This page is closed for comments.