Thu
Mar 17 2011 6:09pm
Sleeping under the wagon: More spoilers for Patrick Rothfuss’s The Wise Man’s Fear

The Wise Mans Fear by Patrick RothfussPatrick Rothfuss’s The Wise Man’s Fear has been out for ages now—well, a fortnight. That means that lots of people have had a chance to say interesting and clever things on the original spoiler thread. And I want to talk about some of those things. This post is mostly clever things other people have said and my thoughts on them.

If you haven’t read the book yet, the main thing you want to know is that you should start with The Name of the Wind (post). And the other thing you want to know is that  I’m absolutely thrilled to bits to discover that somebody else has found a piece of evidence that I missed which proves one of my theories. It’s that kind of book, a huge complicated fascinating fantasy that you can sink right into, where there are interesting things that fit together, and one where the author knows what he’s doing.

Lots of spoilers going forward.

The thing that The Wise Man’s Fear proves beyond all doubt is that Rothfuss is in control of his material. He really knows what he’s doing and he’s prepared to take the time to do it right. This is all one story, and it’s a story in which storytelling is very important. We can trust him.

RobotMonkey talks about the things Rothfuss skips here—the shipwreck and the trial, and compares this to Patrick O’Brian’s trick of doing plot significant stuff between volumes. He asks:

Why do you suppose Rothfuss is employing this trick? Space or time considerations? Future comic book or novella material? Tighter story?

I think the last is absolutely why—he’s not telling us “every breath Kvothe drew,” or even “Some nifty things that happened to Kvothe.” And he certainly isn’t leaving himself something to write when he’s sixty-four. He’s leaving those things out because they’re not important to the actual story he wants to tell, which is the tragic rise and fall of Kvothe and Denna and the Chandrian and the Amyr across two worlds. It’s those gaps that make me feel absolutely confident he knows what he’s doing. They’d have been interesting scenes. But they didn’t matter, and he’s telling us what matters. Nothing here is just scenery. He left out the shipwreck, so you can rely on it that he didn’t tell us about the time Kvothe got drunk with his friends just for fun. And according to TyranAmiros he said at a signing that he’d written some of those scenes he left out. They might show up somewhere sometime as their own thing. But they’re not part of this story, they’re not essential, so they’re not here. I can’t tell you how happy this makes me. People who complain about books being too long and self-indulgent and not edited? Notice this lack of inessential detail and admire.

Because of the frame story we know certain things. We know that we are about two-thirds of the way through. We know that in the events Kvothe will relate on the third day he will be expelled from the university, kill a king, acquire Bast, lose his magic, exchange his Adem sword, fake his own death and retire to the inn. We also know the world will not end but that it will go to hell—the world we see, full of war and fae monster attacks isn’t the world he’s talking about. We can be pretty sure that this is Kvothe’s fault.

We also know, or think we know, that it’s a tragedy—that tree is on the cover!—but as tragedy is so rare in fantasy, as there’s the conversation about inevitability and free will, and as there is so much humour in these stories, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Rothfuss manages to pull off eucatastrophe in the frame after all. Kvothe believes it’s a tragedy, and his story so far must be, but I suspect, Chtaeh or not, the first and last chapter or the third book will not be the same. It could honestly go either way. And for me to say that two-thirds of the way through a story is a real treat—and even more for a fantasy story.

In any case, we now know for sure that the story is connected—that Denna and the Chandrian are central to the whole narrative. And we know that the story goes on from what we have and fits into the space between what we have and the frame, that it all connects up. Knowing these things means that when we speculate, we are speculating into a defined space. We are like people doing a jigsaw who have all the edge pieces in place and are trying to fill in the middle.

The Lackless Connection

I’m going to start with this, because I am so excited about it.

Alekhia found proof that I’d absolutely missed, beyond anything I listed, that Meluan is Kvothe’s aunt, and that Kvothe’s mother is Netalia Lackless.

Dark Laurian, Arliden’s wife,
Has a face like a blade of a knife
Has a voice like a prickledown burr
But can tally a sum like a moneylender.
My sweet Tally cannot cook.
But she keeps a tidy ledger-book
For all her faults I do confess
It’s worth my life
To make my wife
Not tally a lot less...

The song implies that he calls his wife Tally because she’s good with numbers, but the much more likely reason is because Tally is short for Netalia...(it is mentioned that the stolen away lackless sister’s name is netalia)

Furthermore, the last three lines, when spoken aloud sound like “It’s worth my life to make my wife Netalia Lockless.” It seems likely that the real reason Kvothe’s mother made his father sleep under the wagon after he made that song is not because it had a bad meter as Kvothe claims but because it gave away her identity as Netalia Lockless.

So, I think we can now take that one as proven. Well done Alekhian. And again—he didn’t tell us about the time Kvothe got drunk with his friends for fun, he told us so that we would know that, if we were paying enough attention. Wow.

We’re then left with the riddle of the Lackless box being a lot more personally connected to Kvothe. And I think we can assume that the box is what’s in his box, the box in his bedroom in the frame story, the one he can’t open and Bast can’t open. (On the possibility of eucatastrophe, I wonder if he has opened it, and I wonder if it’s like Pandora’s box, where he has let out the plagues and he needs to let out hope last?) I’m also very interested in the Yllish writing on it, and the connection to Denna’s Yllish braiding and a completely different form of magic.

TyranAmiros says:

I will laugh so hard if the Yllish inscription on the top of the box is just another version of “Lady Lackless has a box” (because as the Tough Guide to Fantasyland says, “Every BALLAD has a chorus, which seems to be nonsense but turns out to be hugely significant”).

Quite.

Denna and Master Ash

One of Kvothe’s false starts in NotW is about Denna, so we know she is central.

Master Ash is a very mysterious figure. Timpenin thinks he’s Cinder, because of cinders and ashes. There does seem to be some evidence that he’s a Chandrian. Msmcdon and Orlun think he’s Haliax. The reason for thinking he’s a Chandrian are that he takes Denna to that wedding, and he teaches her the fake story about Lanre to take the place of the real story in case anybody else tries to put it together the way Kvothe’s father did. The evidence against it is the petty sadism, which seems rather beneath a Chandrian—but what do we know about them really? We know Cinder is around and in the same part of the world at a time when we know Denna was meeting Master Ash.

RogueSock has a different theory about Master Ash:

I believe Bredon is Denna’s Patron.

Denna explained that he had dealings with the Maer, and that with the circles Kvothe has been in, he has already likely met him.
-Bredon enjoys playing games, Mr. Ashe thinks of beating Denna as a “game”, the twisted sick bastard.
-Mr. Ashe and Bredon both have a cane.
-Mr. Ashe and Bredon both have white hair.
-Bredon told Kvothe he just took up dancing, Denna said Mr. Ashe is a surprising good dancer.
-The rumors of his Bredon’s “rituals in the woods” goes along nicely with Mr. Ashe being at the wedding.
-Why spend such a large amount of time on a character that does not have a backstory given, if not to signify such a betraying and dramatic revelation.

But Bredon seemed like such a nice guy! Still, this seems possible. But why would Bredon care about Lanre and all of that? Tarcanus says:

Either that or Bredon is an Amyr. If I recall correctly, Kvothe was told that he was probably already pretty close to Amyr business while he was staying at the Maer’s court.

I like that. That works. That especially works with some of the theories about Denna’s history, below. Cynrtst countersuggests that Bredon could be Cinder. I don’t think so, because I think Kvothe would have recognised him—he almost recognised him across the battle in the dark. And could Cinder, or even Haliax, be so pleasant? Besides, there were candles burning and they didn’t burn blue. He could be Master Ash. He could be an Amyr. He could be both. Putting out counter-propaganda seems to benefits the Chandrian, but we know it’s a thing the Amyr do, and they might be doing it to prevent more tragedies. But that doesn’t go with the sadism.

Master Ash is a bad guy, whoever he is. Denna’s just like those victims of domestic violence. “No, he didn’t hit me, I fell off my horse... oh you mean that other time when I walked into a tree... no he had a good reason to hit me...” Gah.

RogueSock says about Denna:

-Denna allows herself to be beaten. Furthermore Cthaeh tells us that she thinks that’s all she is good for, so she continues to go back to him.

Obviously Denna does not think highly of herself, from NOTW she wonders if her being alive is a mistake, and from WMF she believes she deserves to be punished.

So I ask myself, what could possibly make her think these things?

Denna feels guilty about something monumental. I believe people died and she lived, perhaps her family or village. Furthermore I believe she was taken captive, like the girls in WMF, but did not escape so quickly. She could also feel guilty because she feels/was part of the cause of those deaths.

This explains her “like looking in a mirror” of the girl in the alley, her desire to not be tied down or “owned” by any man, and her behavior and choices reflecting her lack of self respect.

Elodin made some good suggestions regarding a girl who changes her name frequently as well:
1. “It could indicate she doesn’t know who she is.”
2. “Or that she does know, and doesn’t like it.”
3. “It could indicate restlessness and dissatisfaction.
4. “It could mean she changes her name with the hope it might help her be a different person.”

Denna is one confused girl, lost even. We know she is trying to go somewhere, but even she does not know where that is. At this point it could be with Kvothe (my hopeful vote), or with Mr. Ashe who desires the Chandrean to be seen as heroes.

This may lead to the betrayal that crushes Kvothe.

Kvothe also saw his family killed, but he doesn’t feel guilty, he wants revenge.

HLS11 builds on this:

Given Denna’s mysterious and likely tragic past, her desire for certain secrets, and the unbelievably close parallels between Kvothe and Denna, I sometimes wonder if Denna is on her own mission for knowledge and revenge. I think someone on a forum suggested that perhaps the Amyr, in pursuit of the “greater good,” was responsible for something happening to Denna. That would certainly set the scene for a betrayal. I’m not sure I buy into that theory, but Denna’s definitely involved in something.

They do seem strangely parallel, and maybe Denna wants revenge on the Amyr with the help of the Chandrian, as Kvothe wants revenge on the Chandrian with the help of the Amyr? Clever.

RogueSock says:

I for one want Denna and Kvothe to have a sit down and really talk. Seriously. They both precieve each other as something likely to be scared off. They simply need to communicate. My gosh I want them to explain to each other their backstories.

In NotW I thought Denna was basically a cliche pretty-but-incomprehensible-love-object. Now, however, especially after the Bechdel scene, I think she’s a lot more interesting. I also think the sitting down and talking isn’t possible. I think the way they persistently misunderstand each other and can’t find each other is actually magical—possibly a curse.

Then there’s the stone story.  RogueSock again:

I want to include The Stone Story that Denna tells Kvothe:
“This is the story of a girl who came to the water with the boy. They talked and the boy threw the stones as if casting them away from himself. The girl didn’t have any stones, so the boy gave her some. Then she gave herself to the boy, and he cast her away as he would a stone, unmindful of any falling she might feel.”

“Is it a sad story then?” (Kvothe asked). “No not sad. But it was thrown once. It knows the feel of motion. It has trouble staying the way most stones do. It takes the offer that the water makes and moves sometimes. When it moves it thinks about the boy.”

I just hope the boy and the girl finally have a sit down and discuss their pasts. See the similarities and help each other. It will be interesting to see if any of my theory comes true.

And HLS11:

I read the story about the stone four or five times trying to figure out exactly what it meant. What do the stones symbolize and what does it mean for the boy to give them to her? Does the boy throwing away the stone symbolize something Kvothe did to Denna? At first I thought it might refer to the big argument they had, but know I’m thinking it might refer to Kvothe leaving her for the University after they met for the first time. Now whenever she moves she thinks of him.

And gosh, does she move. She’s always moving. This really is a situation where if they had one clear conversation they could sort out a lot of things, but they never seem able to do that. I really think they are literally cursed to misunderstand each other. Which would pose the interesting question: who would have done that, and for what purpose?

Linguistic Theories

TyranAmiros has a terrific theory based on words:

I wonder if the Amyr established the University. I noticed that the Adem live in Ademre, which presumably breaks into Adem+re, or “land of the Adem”. So perhaps Imre=Amyr+re, with the name shortened over time like all those -cester placenames in England.

I think this is wonderful, whether or not it turns out to be the case.

CMPalmer has noticed two things, and the first goes with this rather nicely:

Another linquistic similarity that I thought might become a plot point is the similarity between ‘Adem’ and Edema Ruh’. The Adem say that they were driven from their lands and moved to the places that no one wanted. The Edema Ruh have no land of their own and wander. The Adem scorn music and song and public display of emotion, while the Edema Ruh are the exact opposite. It made me wonder if they were once the same people and a schism divided them as they were driven from their lands (perhaps one of the seven cities).

Wouldn’t that be interesting, if true? And it has the kind of poetic truth that Rothfuss seems to be fond of. And talking about poetry, CMPalmer noticed something else:

There’s something no one has mentioned (that I’ve seen) that I think is weird and wonderful about the books. In several places, notably the more intimate scenes with Denna and much of the conversations with Felurian, the dialog is often in rhymed couplets with a deliberate meter. I can’t decide whether it is the way Kvothe has told the stories to himself over the years or a game that he and Denna play since they’re both musicians (I suspect the latter since Kvothe mentions distracting her by rhyming in the stone story chapter). I loved it in the Felurian scenes because it reminded me of A Midsummer Night’s Dream. It just seemed appropriate that people in Fae spoke that way.

A similar thing happened in the first book when he was relating the story told by the storyteller. It started in normal prose, but as it moved into the heart of the story, it became more like an oral epic poem. It didn’t really rhyme, but it had the rhythm and meter that served as memorization aids for oral epics like the Illiad. I realized it and went back to read just the dialogue out loud and was amazed. When it was formatted as simple prose, the effect was subtle, but when read out loud it was obvious. Very cool stuff.

Very cool stuff indeed. And nobody ever notices when you do that. As long as you take the line breaks out, people don’t spot that things are poetry. But CMPalmer noticed, and to be honest I also noticed, and the reason I didn’t mention it is that I do this myself and don’t want to draw attention to it, because sometimes if people know about it it puts them off. I’ve heard people object to the way Poul Anderson does it in A Midsummer Tempest and known other people not read it because of it. But nobody minds in The Princess Bride... and we’re a long way down a spoiler thread, who’s it going to put off now?

Two worlds, one moon

First—I love this. This is the thing that fantasy can do with the fantastic that it so often doesn’t, the moon moving between the two skies. And this is what wise men fear, a moonless night. (Have we seen the moon in the frame story, and do we know how it is?)

Timpenin asks what the Chandrian are up to:

Are they looking to join the fae and mortal worlds, perhaps?

They could be trying to join them or trying to continue the theft of the moon and drive them completely apart. It seems from the fae creatures wandering about that something has happened to change the state of affairs.

And Alekhia has some thoughts:

I just reread the Hespe’s story about Jax stealing the moon, and I have a couple thoughts:

1) The description of the house: if you read closely, it’s obvious he’s talking about Faerie.

“In the end the result was the same: the mansion was magnificent, huge and sprawling. But it didn’t fit together properly. There were stairways that led sideways instead of up. Some rooms had too few walls, or too many. Many rooms had no ceiling, and high above they showed a strange sky full of unfamiliar stars.

”Everything about the place was slightly skewed. In one room you could look out the window at the springtime flowers, while across the hall the windows were filmed with winter’s frost. It could be time for breakfast in the ballroom, while twilight filled a nearby bedroom.

“Because nothing in the house was true, none of the doors or windows fit tight. They could be closed, even locked, but never made fast. And as big as it was, the mansion had a great many doors and windows, so there were a great many ways both in and out.”

Space is weird; going into one direction can lead you to another. Different seasons in different places. Different times of the day in different places. There are a bunch of ways for someone to sneak into or out of the place. And most damning, there’s no moon in that different sky until Jax put it there. That’s the exact description of Faerie.

According to Felurian, Iax was the first and most powerful shaper. He made Faerie, and didn’t just unfold it.

2) Since the folding house was actually Faerie, we can assume that the flute and the box also represent something else. The flute could be anything with the power to call something else, and the box is something that is able to hold names.

3) The old man was a Namer and familiar with their lore who was searching the name of the wind. In fact I suspect he was called an E’lir or listener. His presence in the story suggests that the Namers (or a particular Namer) tried to dissuade Iax from capturing the moon but did not succeed in doing so. This namer also had skills Iax did not have, being able to open the knot on the tinker’s pack where Iax failed.

I think that the man who tried to advise Iax was Teccam, and here’s why:

1) Teccam has been mentioned far too often for him to not be important

2) In NotW, there is an early description of the university which states:

“The University itself consisted of about fifteen buildings that bore little resemblance to each other. Mews had a circular central hub with eight wings radiating in each direction so it looked like a compass rose. Hollows was simple and square, with stained glass windows showing Teccam in a classic pose: standing barefoot in the mouth of his cave, speaking to a group of students.”

I think both the reference to the cave, and the fact that he is barefoot strongly suggest that he may be the old man in Hespe’s story of Jax.

Interesting. I don’t have any more. Clearly the house is Faerie, clearly the things are something, I wonder if the sack could be the Lackless box, since they are both hard to open? Alekhia was so absolutely right about Netalia that I’m inclined to just take this as right for now. Anybody else?

Chandrian and Amyr

Fellurian says there were no human Amyr, but we know there were, and that they were disbanded in mysterious circumstances and that they still exist and have been obscuring the record ever since. But the useful point is that there were Faerie Amyr, or something that precedes the splitting of the worlds.

TyranAmiros asks

How the Chandrian have stayed alive for 5,000+ years if they truly are human. None of the magic systems we’ve seen—not even knowing the Names of things—would let a person do this.

But we know they’re not human. Fellurian remembers sitting on the walls of Muriella when there was only one world, and Muriella is one of the cities in Skarpi’s story of Lanre. So we know the whole Lanre/Chandrian/Amyr thing happened before the Fae world was separate, she says so. She’s been alive countless aeons, so have they. They are pre-human. We can’t tell this about the Amyr—whether there are any original ones alive, we know they have been recruiting. We know the Chandrian, apart from Haliax, have something to fear from them. And since the Chandrian go around destroying everybody that knows anything about them, we know there’s some way having knowledge about them can hurt them.

If anybody finds out any more about these things, do let me know.

I honestly thought this post would take me five minutes, and instead it has taken me days and days, and made me want to read the books again! Thank you again to everyone who commented, and most especially Alekhia.

Edited to Add: There is a Weekly Rothfuss Reread going on here, people finding this post now should find that too and join in!


Jo Walton is a science fiction and fantasy writer. She’s published two poetry collections and nine novels, most recently Among Others, and if you liked this post you will like it. She reads a lot, and blogs about it here regularly. She comes from Wales but lives in Montreal where the food and books are more varied.

294 comments
INCyr
1. INCyr
Holy crap, the amount of stuff I've evidently missed in these novels is amazing. I want to go back and re-read them now, but I don't think I will, because it'll just make me want the third one even more.

The one thing I had caught was the rhyming couplets in at least one place, which I thought was amazingly cool. I had to go back and read it a couple of times to figure out if it was truly intentional, and if there was any signifigance to where it started.

But man, the little things he's hidden in the books... GAH. LOVE IT.
INCyr
2. DZ
I always thought that Kvothe's immediately-rescinded expulsion at the end of NOTW was what he was referring to in his introduction of himself. The way that scene played out and the chapter break at the climax always struck me as dramatically fulfilling "expelled from the university at a younger age than most are allowed in". I could be wrong though, which wouldn't surprise me because I totally agree that Ambrose puts the King in Kingkiller. The merchant's son that recognizes Kote as Kvothe referred to broken cobblestones in Imre where Kvothe killed "him", which would indicate that Kvothe kills Ambrose in Imre, which would probably get him tossed out of the University right quick (not to mention starting a war by killing the Vintish king in the Commonwealth, which would account for Kvothe being sad about Aaron going off to die in a stupid war of his own making). Either way, I love the interweaving of hints and clues here, and I can't wait for The Doors of Stone.

I am definitely curious as to the Chandrian/Amyr situation, and that may be/probably is related to this, but I am really curious as to the riddle of the Lackless box and Lackless door. Obviously Kvothe is the son who brings the blood, and I am pretty sure the four-plate door in the Archives is the Lackless door: it's lockless, and I think Master Lorren is linked to one branch or another or the Lackless family (possibly? related to Lochees). Actually, I think I'm going to go reread both books obsessively for clues until the last one comes out. Yeah, that sounds good...
Pamela Adams
3. Pam Adams
I've been wanting to read these, but think I'll wait until nearer to #3's release. Or maybe not- but clearly these books need time and won't be my bedside quick bits. (mine is currently The Stray Lamb)

I remember reading Midsummer's Tempest long ago and noticing the rhymed couplets- great fun!
INCyr
4. James Bradford DeLong
It seems clear to me that Kvothe-in-the-framing-story does not know about the Lackless connection yet.

That is something that we readers know that he in the framing story does not. What else do we know that Kvothe in the framing story does not? And how could that be used to lever what Kvothe thinks is a catastrophe into a eucatastrophe?
INCyr
5. Kris13
I'm not going to be verbose about this because what I want to say is pretty simple.

Good job.

I usually hate expose posts about books I've read, but you integrated your own opinion with that of astute readers flawlessly. You increased my appreciation of the book. Very well done.

Tip o the hat to you and your sources.

Cheers!
INCyr
6. DZ
@4,

I'm of two minds (Alar like a Ramston-steel blade!) about Kvothe knowing his mother's identity. On the one hand, he explicitly drew attention to "you should have figured this out" when Skarpi mentioned Haliax, so you have to wonder why he hasn't given any indication that he's made the connection between Laurian and Netalia Lackless. On the other hand, given the intentional, highly focused, relevant-detail-emphasizing manner in which Kvothe has framed his narrative (not to mention his obvious genre savviness), I find it hard to believe that he hasn't made the connection given the amount of time spent on all things Lackless. I suppose his memory of his mother's reaction to the Lackless rhyme could be attributed to his awareness that the Lacklesses are important but not necessarily why, but his inclusion of his father's "Tally" song and it's thinly-disguised true meaning make it hard for me to believe he doesn't know.

My biggest question about the frame story is about its central conflict. I wonder if the Chandrian/Amyr/Lackless/Denna plots will be wrapped up in Kvothe's narrative or if they will be dealt with as part of the resolution of the frame story. I do like the suggestion that he hid his true name in the thrice-locked chest and needs to get it back. Whatever the truth, I wonder if his life as an innkeeper is an epilogue to the saga of Kvothe or if it is the chapter before the climax? I really want to know what kind of story Kvothe thinks he's telling, and if he's right.
INCyr
7. Natasa
Jax = Iax
Iax = Haliax
Jo Walton
8. bluejo
James Bradford DeLong, DZ -- I assumed that he knew, but was telling us in order of how he figured it out. But I don't know.

I think that thrice-locked chest will have to open in frame time to resolve the plot

Natasa: Awesome. But Haliax is also Lanre...? And in the Adem rhyme, he's Alaxel?

I really need to read it again.
INCyr
9. DZ
@7,

Ooooooh I like that...back to the books for more theorycrafting!
Stefan Raets
10. Stefan
I can't tell you how annoyed I am at myself for not spotting the identity of Kvothe's mother. It's one of those things that's so bleeding obvious - once you know it. The connection between the Edema Ruh and the Adem is an excellent point, too. Thanks for this post!
Sharat Buddhavarapu
11. Sharat Buddhavarapu
I questioned the story about Meluan being Kvothe's aunt or whatever. Wasn't sure then, but this seems like solid evidence. Also can I ask whether anybody else thought he restored the Edema Ruh name? Because Rothfuss talked tons and tons about that, but nothing in the book indicated he redeemed their reputation.
INCyr
12. James Bradford DeLong
Note that as Natalia Lackless's son, Kvothe is well ahead of Ambrose Jakis (Jaks?) in the royal succession:

"Actually, is sixteenth.... You've got the royal family, the prince regents, Maer Alveron, Duchess Samista, Aculeus and Meluan Lackless..."
INCyr
13. Jonathon Duerig
I've had the thought that Master Ashe was perhaps an Amyr. His entire line of argument for hurting Denna was definitely similar to the kinds of reasoning that the Amyr seem to follow. This would also explain his secrecy.

Some of the Amyr definitely approached the more sinister aspects that such reasoning can bring you to in the stories of them...
INCyr
14. Goewyn
For those who didn't catch it, the name Kote he picked for himself means "Disaster". About 68% through NOTW he translates a phrase for Master Kilvin after the Fishery explosion. "Chan Vaen edan Kote" - Expect disaster every seven years.

Reading further into it, does something happen 7 years from that point - or does he assume the identity of Kote then?
INCyr
15. Susan Loyal
Goewyn,

Yes, and that's the only time we see the word "Kote" when it isn't the innkeeper's name. Once only, just to see if we're paying attention.

(And it's especially lovely that "Kote" is the only word of the aphorism that Kvothe can't translate. Kilvin rattles off the saying to explain why he's elated and relieved rather than devastated about the fire. Kvothe tries to work his way through a translation and ends up saying "I don't know 'Kote'." So then Kilvin provides the complete translation, and adds that they were two years overdue.) And so our narrator is Disaster who bears the sword Folly. No one else could pull that off without making me laugh (or snort), but Rothfuss does it by just landing on it lightly and passing right on by.

Incidentally, Jo, I'm tentatively in the Bredon-as-Master-Ash camp, precisely because he's so pleasant. What motive would a courtier have for making friends with a johnny-come-lately who has no influence and no money? What motive could he have for continuing the friendship when the guy falls out of favor? I really, really want to like him, but he's up to something. Kvothe's only real significance at that point, other than his many and varied talents and his red, red hair, is that the Chandrian have seen him. I'm more than half convinced that whoever's managing Denna is doing so in order to have a path to Kvothe, precisely because he's been seen by the Chandrian. But I don't know why. MUST HAVE THIRD BOOK!
INCyr
16. chrispin
This discussion was just what I needed. I love all the theories, and they're adding to my thoughts.

Kvothe must have changed his real, secret name. That's why he can't do magic or fight. Elodin freaked out when Kvothe brought up name changing re: Denna. If the Lackless box is the box from the Jax moon story, then when Kvothe finally opens the box, it releases the name of the moon and traps his own name. If the moon is stuck on the Fae side, then the Fae can cross over easily. Humanside every night is a feared moonless night.

I'm interested in hearing Bast's story. Was he sent by the queen? Is he a sithe and therefore must kill everyone who hears these stories? I imagine since Kvothe lost his name, he can get away with telling the story without breaking his oaths. It really is not Kvothe telling the story, but Kote, or whatever his new secret name is. This is also why he can't convince the smith's boy to stay. Kvothe is always bragging that he can talk anyone into anything, but Kote's persuasion didn't ring true. Kote's task in the next series will be to call the moon and get her name back in the box to restore balance between the worlds, but this time he has to do it without his fabulous powers.

In my reading, I thought Brandon was an Amir. I love the thought that he's also Mr Ash. He deserves to be a complicated character. If so, he must be hitting Denna for the greater good. It might be a byproduct of the methods used to teach her whatever it is he's teaching. Kvothe had quite a few bruises from his time studying with the Adem and kept going back for more.
INCyr
17. Skapegoat
Reguarding the point about Kvothe being ahead of Ambrose for royal succession, Kvothe mentions early on in NotW that his parents were never formally married. Meaning that he would be illegitimate and not be considered for the throne.
Jo Walton
18. bluejo
Skapegoat: Maybe meaning that, or maybe meaning that he inherits through his mother's line and not his father's? And it's his mother who matters here.

Chrispin: Ooh, changing his real name and it being in the box makes perfect sense. Yes. That explains so much.

People are saying "second trilogy" like it's a given. I haven't seen anything about that -- has Pat said that anywhere, or is it a guess?
INCyr
19. naeolin
About Kvothe being in line for the throne. Don't forget that he specifically mentions that his parents never married, which is why he takes a certain dark pleasure in agreeing whenever someone calls him a "Ruh Bastard." Unless the Vintas sucession laws work a lot differently than our own, Kvothe is invalidated as an heir.

As for Bredon being Master Ash and an Amyr, I'm really starting to lean that way. I don't believe Skarpi's story about Lanre in NotW was entirely accurate, but assuming Lanre's name was cursed, then maybe ANY mention of it is painful to him. So, let's say you're Bredon and you are a member of an Order who has been fighting a war in the shadows with the Chandrian for thousands of years. How do you act against them? First, you snatch up a talented musician that no one wants and have her compose a song that will be sung for 100 years. You can't have it tell the true story of Lanre, because that will depress people, but a story of Lanre and Lyra the doomed lovers? That, my friends, will spread like wildfire.

Maybe he'll have her incorporate his real name later, who knows? But Denna's moving around a bunch (as is her way) would actually keep her safe from the Chandrian for a while. Of course, not forever, but what's the life of one girl worth in the grand scheme of things? It's for the greater good, after all.

In conclusion, the Amyr are bastards, Kvothe spends a bunch of time looking for them, and in the end they cost him the only woman he has ever truly loved.

It's so perfectly twisted that I have to believe it's the case.
INCyr
20. dwndrgn
I have to say that I am extremely dense. I didn't catch ANY of this (though the stone story Denna tells struck a chord in my mind somewhere but I've not made the connection yet and there is something about the skraelings too) on my several reads of Name of the Wind and one read of Wise Man's Fear. Sheesh. I'm involved in too many lengthy re-reads at the moment (WoT, Redwall & HP) to get back into it but once I'm done with these others I'll be re-reading them with a fine toothed...eyeball? Whatever, you get my point.

Thank you Jo for sharing your thoughts and those of that spoiler post that I had missed.

And thank you to all the bright ones who've shared their gleanings.
INCyr
21. chrispin
So Denna must be an Amyr in training. She was pretty superhero in that back alley. And she's traveling the world helping unfortunates. On first reading I was very much in the Hate Denna camp, but if she has a Secret Identity, then her actions are less obnoxious.

Nope, no facts on any more books, just what ifs following other's comments.
INCyr
22. stargazer
My god, the poem is brilliant. "Not tally a lot less". Major, major kudos to Alekhia for catching that!

What I want to know (continuing the theme of "Rothfuss doesn't put anything in unless it really matters") is what Auri's past holds. Is she just a cracked student who Kvothe befriends, or is there some deeper connection? True, in NotW she serves a key role in getting Kvothe into the library while he's banned, but that could just as easily have been achieved by Kvothe exploring the Underthing on his own. Is she just there to humanize Kvothe and hold him when he cries, or does she have further in store for us?

The other part that I found fascinating was the rhyme in the frame story about Kvothe's rings. Clearly this is a clue (practically a direct list!) of the Names that Kvothe will hold at his peak of power before going into hiding -- but what is the ring unseen?
INCyr
23. arraya
Did anybody notice that the Lackless box and the Cthaeh both smell like lemon and that Kvothe mentions that the Lacklessbox smells 'maddeningly familiar'? I also think that Kvothe's big chest is also made from the Cthaeh wood, which suggests that he went back to Fairie at some point. Also, he can't go back anymore because of what he did to the moon and he's stuck now.
INCyr
24. AhoyMatey
At the end of the book, Kvothe takes one perfect step. I assume he's doing the Ketan. And he's mastered it by now. I don't know if that means he may still have some of his abilities.
INCyr
25. CorwinOfAmber
@Natasa
Dammit, I was all excited to post "Iax=Haliax?" Good job!

One thing I can't help but think every one is overlooking: for most of the book, Rothfuss isn't telling us Kvothe's story, he's telling us the story of Kvothe telling Kvothe's story. A year ago, at a signing, I asked Pat if we can trust Kvothe as a narrator. I got a smile and a "that's a good question." I'm not suggesting that Kvothe is making stuff up, I really do believe he is trying to have the true story of his life recorded, but what is he leaving out? What is he obscuring? Where is his memory failing or incomplete? It is entirely possible that there are discrepencies between what Kvothe is telling us and what "really" happened. This was already prepared in NOTW when Bast questions Denna's beauty. Of course, that's something subjective, but it at leaste shows us that we're not seeing the world objectively, but through Kvothe-tinted glasses, and should at least briefly question the things he tells us.
Adam Shaeffer
26. ashaef
@16

Elodin's freak-out struck me as well, and I came to the same conclusion--Kvothe changed his name, his true name somehow, and is now in truth Kote. Kote cannot do the things Kvothe could because he is just an innkeeper. Kote may know Kvothe's story, may even retain some muscle memory, but he's not Kvothe.

I really, really hope this plays out as a eucatastrophe . . .
INCyr
27. Arraya
If you go by Skarpi's story, Iax and Lanre/Haliax are different people. Remember that Selitos thinks that only three people could match his skill in names: Aleph, Iax, and Lyra. And Lanre had no gift for names.
INCyr
28. Arraya
P.s. Felurian won't speak Iax's name and says that he's shut beyond the doors of stone. I'm thinking that's the four-plate door in the archives. I wonder if Iax's name is the 'word that is forsworn' in the Lackless poem.
INCyr
29. CorwinOfAmber
@Arraya
My copy of NOTW is lent out, I should have checked the story. Still, I wonder if some connection is there.
I thought the same thing about the door in the archives. If you combine that with the theory that the University was founded by (perhaps still run by...?) the Amyr, things get even more interesting.
Jo Walton
30. bluejo
Maybe Lanre changed his real name, and changed his nature so that he could name?
INCyr
31. CorwinOfAmber
I think you probably have to be good at naming before you can
change names. Exceptionally good.

I think it's more likely that he gave himself the use name Haliax
because it meant something. Like Son of Iax or Slayer of Iax. Who
knows? It's also entirely possible that the name Iax has a meaning
and they both just share a root word in their names.

Or it could just be a coincidence.
INCyr
32. Jonathon Duerig
After reading the previous spoiler thread, I saw that HLS11 pointed out a couple of things:

Denna wears Yllish braids in her hair.
When Denna asked about magic, she wanted to know if you could write something down and make it true.

But add this to the fact we learned in Elodin's class:


“The Yllish people never developed a written language,” she said.

“Not true,” Elodin said. “They used a system of woven knots.” He made a complex motion with his hands, as if braiding something. “And they were doing it long before we started scratching pictograms on the skins of sheep.”

---

Denna has been weaving words into her hair to make them true!

Now I'm tempted to try to go back and find every reference to her hair and reread them.
INCyr
33. Jonathon Duerig
A point I read from another forum about the chronicler: His name is
Devan Lochees. At one point, we read about the various branches of the Lackless family and their names. I'm pretty sure that Lochees was one of them. I'll have to double check next time I read it.
INCyr
34. Jonathon Duerig
Sorry to triple-post, but another bit of foreshadowing. Recall the multiple comparisons of Kvothe's Alar to Ramston Steel.

When Kvothe meets a tinker and buys a knife, the knife is made from Ramston Steel. But Kvothe says he would prefer another knife because although Ramston Steel is high quality, it is also brittle. The tinker agrees, saying that a Ramston Steel knife is the best knife you own until it breaks.

This gives us a clue as to what will eventually happen to Kvothe's Alar. It will shatter under some great stress and he will no longer be able to perform sympathy.
INCyr
35. chrispin
Jonathon - I was just thinking about Devan Lochees. The Lochees and Lackless families split over 1000 years ago after a disagreement, maybe over a box? Maybe one side of the family got the box and the other the key, and one side wanted to keep the box a secret but the other wanted to keep a record for posterity. Devan may also know names. At the beginning of NotW he attacks Bast by saying "Iron." I think he should take a crack at that trunk upstairs.

I also think Devan and Skarpi are Amyr. Devan said they are colleagues and working together. Chronicler goes around making sure that the written histories left are Amyr approved. He has access to every little private library as he travels around, just like Kvothe wanted.

Corwin- I agree that Kote is not not a reliable narrator. I personally don't believe Kvothe was any good in bed. He's too self-absorbed.

arraya - I noticed those smells, but couldn't remember what smelled like what. Thanks for the reminder! How could anyone chop down a Cthaeh tree? You'd be cursed for sure. At one point Davi's rooms also smelled maddeningly familiar. What is Davi doing with Faewood?
INCyr
36. Revie1
Thanks so much for this post and everyone's insightful comments! I have just a couple thoughts to add:

When the Maer and Meluan are showing Kvothe the lockless box and have him guess what is inside, he first says "something metal, by the way the weight shifts when I tilt it", then he second guesses stones or glass. Then he almost laughs out loud when he thinks of the children's rhyme: "In a box, no lid or locks/ Lackless keeps her husband's rocks."

But later on when Kilvin is talking to Kvothe and shows him the power of the pair of warding stones that he kept locked in his desk, it made me wonder if those were warding stones, or something even more powerful than warding stones, in the box.

Also, this is a thought from the first book; the deterioration of machinery in the Underthing - at one point Kvothe mentions plate-sized pieces of rust falling off the huge cogs - maybe it isn't from age, maybe it is from the effects of the Chandrian? Would they have invaded the University at some point?
INCyr
37. Susan Loyal
Jo, my husband has just suggested that Bredon may be the king whom Kvothe kills. Bredon never even hints his status at Maer Alveron's court. Whatever his status may be, he seems to have no reason to fear visiting Kvothe when he is out of favor, which is an argument for very high status. If Bredon is Master Ash and also very near the throne, he would have a motive for wanting Denna to keep his identity secret. And his treatment of Denna might then be the motive for Kvothe to kill him (perhaps without even knowing he's the king). I had been quite attached to your idea that Ambrose was the king in question, but this seemed like a marvelously twisty idea as well.
Andrew Mason
38. AnotherAndrew
Has anyone considered the reason why 'Bredon' might be a suitable name for a character - especially a nobleman - who is in disguise?
INCyr
39. Susan Loyal
AnotherAndrew,

Did you have something in mind? There's the A. E. Houseman poem "Bredon Hill," about a young couple listening to the church bells in summer and thinking of their wedding (yet to occur), but then winter comes and the young woman steals out "unbeknown" and goes to church alone--for her funeral. If that's the connection, then it suggests Kvothe's history with Denna will not end happily. Other than that I suppose you could make something of "breed on"=lineage, succession. Really, it seems to me just to be the kind of name that would be the fifth middle name of a scion of the nobility, e.g. "James Michael St. John Simon Bredon Custis, nineteenth Earl of Wickham" kind of thing.
Andrew Mason
40. AnotherAndrew
Peter Death Bredon Wimsey - who in one book, Murder Must Advertise, is in disguise and is known simply as 'Death Bredon' (or 'Mr Bredon').

(Though the other things might be relevant as well.)
INCyr
41. Susan Loyal
AnotherAndrew,

Oh, duh! Of course. No wonder it processed as "middle name of scion of the nobility." Thank you!
Jo Walton
42. bluejo
AnotherAndrew, Susan: I don't think there's anywhere else where Rothfuss does that kind of dumb "winking at the audience while ripping you out of his world" thing, so I don't think he's doing it here.

I mean Aaron is Moses's brother, so surely that means the smith's apprentice is going to lead everyone to the promised land -- or maybe not, eh?
Antoni Ivanov
43. tonka
@12 James

Kvothe's mother and father never married so unless children born out of wedlock can inherit, which is unlikely (though I don't know what are the succesion laws there), Kvothe is not in the line of succession at all.
INCyr
44. branna
It's not strictly true that there's nowhere else that Rothfuss uses something that rips you out of the world, given his use of Hebrew words in the origin story. The first shaper/world creator is referred to as "Aleph" (the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, so very appropriate) and Skarpi's second, interrupted story in Book 1 refers to the denizens of the eight cities as "Ruach," a Hebrew word that variously translates as "spirit," "wind," or "breath." Given the significance of wind in the story I'll be profoundly surprised if that's simple coincidence, but there is no indication (yet) that Rothfuss borrowed Hebrew wholesale as the language of the first people/namers/shapers who existed prior to the Creation War.

Of course, that's still substantially less twee than a reference to Wimsey would be.

An aside: judging by that same interrupted story, some of the Ruach follow Selitos to become the Amyr and some become the "singers" (who along with the Amyr and the Sithe seem to be the bane of the Seven). What happens to the rest is unclear, but I wouldn't be surprised if, as others have suggested, they split into the Ademre and the Edema Ruh, especially since "Ruh" would be a very reasonable contraction of "Ruach."
Ashley Fox
45. A Fox
A quick thought.

The Lackless box, i do believe, is the box from the Iax story. It captures names, or at least has the abilty too. It was suggested in the article that it may have acted like a 'Pandora' box, releasing plagues, awaiting release of hope. I disagree. I think it captured Kvoaths' name, the one her recieved in Ademre. Remember Elodin being horrified at the thought of Fela changing her name?

When they talk of a name it is so much more than a label, if this was then condensed into a box, would it not follow that it would translate into weight? Hence the box being so heavy. Boxes are not always for taking things out of, but for putting things in.

Also i believe that the creatures at the begining (sorry cant remember name off top of my head, s...s..somethings) were created by men, not fae, perhaps rediscovering some of the Shapers powers. (Which aparently you need to open the box)

Oh i also think Master Loren is Amyr, Bredan is Master Ash, also Amyr, and is training Denna to follow in his footsteps (the scene in which they talk of violence and teaching is telling, remember it is Kvoeths' perpective of a girl he loves). Nice? Nice?! Smiling whilst he plays a 'beautiful game'...

Ademre and Ruh...i really hope theyre not two sides of the same dead city. Screams desert folk from Wheel of Time.

oh and Denna....very early in NotW one of K's infamous deeds was to resue a princess. Denna has the Yllish indicators, plus we know that the Yllish folk were nearly wiped out in war, and her scorn of the Yllish no longer knowing they're own culture. So, i believe that she is the Yllish Princess, taken and abused in said war, her shame driving her,to what even she is unsure. Her ring an heirloom. Perhaps.

huh, should have said thoughtS
Claire de Trafford
46. ClairedeT
I'm not convinced about the Amyr/Brendon etc link. My theory on the reason that Kvothe was told to stay close to Maer is because his new wife was a Lackless and her heritage holds the key to the defeat of the Chandrian. I'm happy to be proved wrong though!

The door in the Archives obviously has great significance and I agree it is probably the door mentioned in the rhyme. No reason why they can't have a door and a box. Great catch with the Chronicler's real name.

I just posted in the other thread about Kvothe changing his name using his namer powers so I'm in that camp :)

Isn't one of Kvothe's names (possibly the meaning of his Adem name) Broken Tree? Perhaps this is foreshadowing his part in defeating the Ctheah. It also seems likely that the box is made of that wood showing that they can be defeated.

Seeing as we know that Kvothe really is living in a story, he needs a period of trial/suffering before he can claim his true power. For instance he has admitted that, although he has lots of talent, much of his success was accidental or down to his sleeping mind. He certainly doesn't have the naming powers of Elodien (yet). My theory is that he will come to a true and conscious understanding of the power of names and shapes, and that it is this that will allow him to defeat Heliax. Bast and Chronicler will help with that understanding by re-awakening him. Perhaps he will then retire, like Arthur, to fae and Felurian and pass into legend.
INCyr
47. cmpalmer
@A Fox,

I've wondered about whether Denna is a princess as well. The line goes "I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings." In the first book, the scene of the wedding massacre is near ancient barrows, but if that line was referring to that, then I'm not sure where the "sleeping kings" come in, unless it's a roundabout way of saying something about Master Ash. The line does come right before the one about burning the town of Trebon, so...
INCyr
48. lampwick
Well, I think Geoffrey is Denna's brother. I have absolutely no reason for thinking that, except that she treats him differently, and she's worried about him.
jay vidyarthi
49. robotmonkey
"He’s leaving those things out because they’re not important to the actual story he wants to tell ..."
I think you're right. It certainly gives all these need little nuggets a Chekov's Gun perspective, doesn't it?
Claire de Trafford
50. ClairedeT
@49 I'm happy to accept that but I was surprised that the shipwreck/treachery bit got glossed over considering that the sailor that was late to the ship was the one that paused by K & E on the bridge. It caught my eye as sinister at the time but nothing came of it. I guess sometimes a spade really is a spade.
INCyr
51. DZ
The sailor bit really threw me off too. I figured it would be something like he'd end up being an Amyr agent who engineered the shipwreck to stop Kvothe's trip to Severen or something...looks like he was just a guy. Something I just noticed on reread: Denna makes Kvothe swear by his name, his power, and his left hand not to look into Master Ash. I don't think his oath actually has binding power, and obviously Kote has both of his hands, but given the amount of importance placed on the power of names, hands in general, and especially the left hand (for music, Adem sign language, etc.) I have a hunch that this may be pointing to the cause of Kvothe's current (frame story) predicament. After all, the loss of his name, his power, and his left hand dovetails rather nicely with Kote the innkeeper who has neither music nor magic.
Claire de Trafford
52. ClairedeT
I've been doing some more digging today and I noticed that when Kvothe hears the Adem version of the Seven, it is said that:
He poisoned seven others against the empire, and they forgot the Lethani. Six of them betrayed the cities that trusted them.
As Heliax is one of the seven then named, he can't be the 'he' who poisoned the others. Is this Iax/Jax who sparked the war? The war obviously split the shapers (Fae?) from the namers (humans? some humans?).

Also the Lackless rhyme has intriguing possibilities.
Ring unworn (ring that's not for wearing)
Word forsworn (sharp word not for swearing)
Time that must be right
Candle without light (sympathy lamp? ever-burning light?)
Son of the blood (Kvothe?)
Door that holds the flood (door without a handle)
Thing held tight in keeping (secret she's been keeping)

Any ideas?

Also, the story that is told about Tehlu and Encanis sounds remarkably like some of the fae creatures we have come across and the Chandrian:
Demons ... who spoiled milk. There were demons like great beasts (skrael?) ...Some demons stole the skins of men (skin dancers?). Encanis ... shadows hid his face (Heliax?). Wereth, the forger of the path (one of the Amyr?). Seven stayed on the other side of the line.
INCyr
53. Patrick C
Wow, I'm glad I found this thread. I caught some of this stuff, but a lot of it slipped past me. And I forgot some of the details from Skarpi's story so that's very interesting. And "Not tally a lot less..." blew my mind. I'm rereading Song if Ice and Fire now, but I think a reread of these books will be on tap next.
INCyr
54. Springteufel
So here is what I have been thinking about: A central and as of yet unexplained part of the story is how Kvothe actually lost his power(s) and more imporantly physical skills.

In NOTW it becomes apparent that he cannot use sympathy anymore and in WMF he seems to have "forgotten" the Adem way of fighting (even out of practice he shouldn´t have had any trouble with those two)

Now the important part: what could - to speak in abstract terms- change a persons (magical) skills as well as his physical abilities?

Well, when Kvothe talks to Elodin about "the girl that keeps changing her name" he reacts rather strongly before realizing that Kvothe is talking about common names, not true names.
So, considering all we have learned so far about true names is, that they are a *complete* description of a person. From personality to hopes, wishes, ambitions, skills etc. As in "Kvothe learned the true name of Ferulian and knew everything about her"

What I think:
I can really only guess at why, because so much of the most imporant events have not yet been revealed, but somehow Kvothe saw the need to change his true name. Maybe to avert some sort of disaster or he could have even lost it to that damned Lackless box while trying to bind the Chandrian (wild conjecture). Whatever the case I just wanted to put it out there as I seem to be the only one to make *that* particular connection
INCyr
55. Springteufel
Also: thats what I get for just skimming the comments. Someone has already posted about it. Damn! Anyways I am just glad I´m not the only one after all.
INCyr
56. Atman
@ 52

It was Haliax that poisoned the others.

"He poisoned 7 others against the empire, and they forgot the Lethani. Six of them betrayed the cities that trusted them. Six cities fell and their names are forgotten. One remembered the Lethani, and did not betray a city."

The one that remembered the Lethani isn't one of the Seven. The remaining 6 plus Haliax make up the Chandrian.

I got it in my head somewhere that the one that turned against Haliax was also the founder of the Amyr, but I don't know where that idea came from. Can anybody else find evidence of that, or did I imagine it?
Jo Walton
57. bluejo
Atman: The one who remembered the Lethani is clearly Selitos who founded the Amyr. The thing that interests me about that is the story that Kvothe only heard half of about Selitos founding the Amyr with a pile of angels including Tehlu, and how that connects to the story of Tehlu, Encannis and the wheel.
INCyr
58. Atman
blujo: Selitos couldn't have been the one who remembered the Lethani. First of all, Haliax would have to have poisoned him into forgetting the Lethani before he could remember it. Most importantly, think back to the story Skarpi told about Lanre and Selitos; Selitos is the ruler of Myr Tariniel, and there are 7 other cities whose names are lost to history. When Lanre/Haliax comes to Myr Tariniel in the end of the story, Selitos looks out, sees only 6 plumes of smoke, and realizes that one city did not fall. It was the champion of that city who remembered the Lethani, not Selitos.

You are right that Selitos founded the Amyr, though. I went back and looked at the second story Skarpi told, and it's a scene of Selitos and the Ruach talking with Aleph about it. (I think Skarpi is Selitos, by the way.)
Jo Walton
59. bluejo
Atman: OK! Thank you. I wonder who that was, then?
Ashley Fox
60. A Fox
he has already changed his true name
Matthew Knecht
61. mknecht01
** wall of text **


Just finished a reread of both books sparked by this post; particularly
the revelation that everything explicitly shown in the story is a
hint, and its corollary that every tale/song/story within the story is
massively important somehow. A few thoughts:


1) I now think the "Mister Ash beats Denna" meme is a massive red
herring. As others have mentioned in these comments, it seems
likely that Bredon is Ash, and that Ash is an Amyr. This recasts the
Denna/Ash relationship as "master/apprentice" rather than
"patron/artist" - and that puts rather a different complexion on their
interactions.
Who knows what sort of martial arts/weapons/hand-to-hand combat
training inheres in apprenticeship as an Amyr? We see repeated
descriptions, in both books, of Kvothe being willing to be
whipped
and otherwise beaten in order to achieve his aims. In WMF, we also see
explicit discussion of Kvothe's willingness to suffer physically in
order to learn necessary skills, both with Vashet at the beginning of
his training in Haert, and in internal monologue and discussion with
Denna during their picnic near the end. Kvothe is actually led to an
explicit comparison between their two situations as a result of the
discussion of his own scars and whipping, but he passes over it lightly.

It's easy to pass over it as the reader, too - the scene is framed
quite thoroughly in terms of sexual and emotional tension, and if you
are identifying at all strongly with Young Kvothe the unreliable
narrator, then it is hard to step back and put this conversation into
the larger picture.


2) This raises an issue of...
perhaps not sexism exactly, but definitely teenage obsession and
shortsightedness on Kvothe's part. The young Kvothe has Denna
pigeonholed quite firmly as the Damsel in Distress, with himself as the
White Knight, and we often cannot help but be carried along with his
interpretations of her actions. He - and we! - are quite clearly missing
some important knowledge about her actions, her motivations, and her
past. I see the clarification of the Denna arc in book 3 as being a
large part of the "tragedy" of Kvothe's story.


3)
Kvothe is an unreliable narrator on multiple levels. The young Kvothe
lacks knowledge about many things, and in his youthful passion lacks a
certain maturity and depth of character which might allow him to see
more deeply into many of the things that happen to him. Many of his
actions in the story result from a certain teenage shallowness. The
older Kvothe/Kote, narrating the story, occasionally draws attention to
these faults of his younger self... which I think serves to make us
forgetful or dismissive of them when they are not deliberately brought
to our attention. This is just another one of the ways in which Kote is
manipulating the story for his own purposes, whatever they may be
exactly.


4) There are no reliable narrators in the
story. We have now heard 3 (4? more?) versions of this world's creation
myth, all colored by different cultures, styles, and purposes. They
agree in many ways, and contradict each other in many more. Trying to
piece together a coherent cosmology from this is a fun game... but I'm
not sure we know enough yet to get much of anywhere.


5) I can't see how it all wraps up in one more book of comparable size.
INCyr
62. fatcatfan
I like the concept the Kvothe and Denna are both seeking revenge but from opposite sides. That just sounds right.

Until I read that, I'd thought perhaps Denna's song about Lanre was an attempt by one of Amyr (Master Ash) to draw out and trap the Chandrian. The Amyr wouldn't hesitate to put Denna and anyone else in danger of slaughter by the Chandrian if, for the greater good, it provided the Amyr an opportunity to catch the Chandrian at long last.
Sharat Buddhavarapu
63. Sharat Buddhavarapu
@fatcatfan

I don't know that they're going about it from opposite sides because both the Amyr and Kvothe are looking to destroy Haliax and the Chandrian.

@mknecht01

I think you're definitely right about Kvothe's unreliability because he, and even I, want to assume that he is the only one with as wide an understanding as he does. For sure there are many, many ways for him to be more prudent and wise, but on the whole he is a genius with knowledge of a lot more than even most brilliant people do. That is why I think it is hard to dismiss him as shallow because he has seen quite a bit of suffering. For the most part, I'm just going to say I'm conflicted between saying he's pigeon-holed Denna and that he has it right because I don't think there is enough at this point to indicate Denna is as world-weary as Kvothe is.
Lynn McDonald
64. meal6225
When Maer and Meluan show Kvothe the box he first is distracted by her necklace/charm. Was there a similar necklace his mother possessed?
Two things have always bugged at me for their absence; why has Kvothe never shown any interest in letting his troops Patron know of its' massacre? Should that not have been to whom he first turned?
Secondly, he never once mentioned Bredon to Maer. We never got a POV of Maer about Bredon.
Jo Walton
65. bluejo
Meal6225: Lord Greyfallow -- you're right, he never did and he never even thought of approaching him as a personal patron, and I do wonder why not? I also wonder who he is, now you come to mention him.
Steven Halter
66. stevenhalter
I just finished this after reading The Name of the Wind last week. I agree -- these were great reading.
It seems to me that Kothve's lost of powers is connected to his name being changed in some fashion as others have mentioned here.
Meluan is almost certainly Kvothe's aunt. I was pretty sure, but missed the "Not tally a lot less", good catch Alekhia.
I think I'll go with Bredon being Denna's patron (Mister Ash) and that he is an Amyr. I also like the idea that her bruises are not from beating, but from training.
I noticed that when Kvothe was talking with Caudicus, Caudicus mentioned that in the oldest part of the Lackless estate is a secret door without handle or hinges. I wonder if this is a separate item from the box -- a parallel item, or if the box is itself a door. I would lean towards there being also a door and that Kvothe will be travelling to the Lackless lands.
INCyr
67. Apcaipse
Thoughts:
I've read this whole thread, and I don't think I've seen a single post about Devi. She seems increasingly important and understated. In NotW, she loans him 6 talents, they have an awkward / awesome sexual tension, and they're very witty with eachother, but it never goes anywhere. In WMF, it's much the same, but he learns a lot more about her, and how her one goal is to get into the archives. I understand that she wants knowledge from the archives, but what is she looking for? What does she have to better herself for? She's making a ton of money being a loan shark, and it doesn't seem like she needs to increase her sympathetic skills, since she could already beat Kvothe. What does she need from the archive she can't get anywhere else?

The box that Kote has in his room seems to be impossible to open, but I think the answer might be blood, as cliche as that is, it only seems logical. The answer to the lockless door and / or box is blood of a true lockless. We don't know what the box is made of, but I think it might just be made of the Cthaeh. As I think we can see from his current depressed, somber state, he thinks it's his fault for the state of the world. I think it's possible that during the next book, he becomes increasingly obsessed with what the Cthaeh said, and so he returns and fells it (no idea how) or it's just another Fae wood.

Despite their similarities, I think that Denna is like Kvothe's foil. They're opposites of eachother in most aspects, and I think that it's possible that Master Ashe is training her to become the anti Kvothe. The assassin that will eventually stop his quest for righteousness once and for all. Slowly poisoning her against him, and training her at the same time. Until one day when eventually she gets the order to kill him.

Just some thoughts.
INCyr
68. GeoffL
Hrm... When Bast mentioned that Iax spoke with the Cthaeh before stealing the moon, I concluded the Cthaeh was the man in the cave, not Teccam. Possibly before it had been confined to the tree?

Although it could also be the Cthaeh was the tinker, which does seem to better suit its style.

Or Bast could be incorrect, or the Cthaeh could not be in Hespe's story. But it seems likely to me that it would still have a part.
INCyr
69. BriteDarkness
Random theory:

The Amyr excel at hiding or changing information about themselves. We see this in the lack of solid evidence concerning the Amyr. We know the Amyr and the Seven often clash. Could the Amyr be actively changing the truth about the Seven? I call them the Seven specifically because "'Chandrian' has so much folklore hanging off it after all these years."

That said, we never actually witness the Seven killing Kvothe's parents and troupe. Some might point out that Cinder laughs and wants to kill Kvothe. This can easily be explained. From what we know of the Seven and the Sithe, they act for what they believe is right and act outside of the conventional spectrum of right and wrong. While Cinder might enjoy killing Kvothe, he might also be doing right by killing an orphaned boy.

We never actually see the Seven kill the wedding party. Denna never sees it happen either. Maybe she was knocked out to prevent her from seeing the true culprits.

This brings me back to my original point. If you curse someone to be tortured by their own name, you must give them reason to be tortured. When Selitos cursed Lanre, perhaps it was not by "shaping" him in some way. Lanre is not inherently changed to despise his name. Perhaps Selitos has exacted a cruel revenge by tainting the core of Lanre's story. He has, in a way, held Lanre's story hostage. Lanre's story has been twisted by the plotting of the Amyr. The Amyr go from place to place in order to kill new (or old) and unapproved Lanre stories from spreading.

Arliden and the troupe were killed possibly because he showed Lanre and the Seven in a less than Evil light. Perhaps he wrote "Lanre was a man wronged and led down the wrong path." Time to die.

The Mauthens found clay pot. The picture of the Amyr frightened Nina the most. This is not the story the Amyr want published. Time to die.

Skarpi tells the Amyr-approved story of Lanre. He can tell it as much as he wants, because it is the story the Amyr want circulated.

This said, the Amyr and the Seven are probably neither good nor evil. This is simply a case of the winners* writing history.

*For that matter, are they the winners or the losers? The whole Creation War thing is confusing me a fair bit.

Eh... and I wrote all of this before thinking about Denna's song. I have no clue how it would fit in. Unless her patron is one of the Seven. Perhaps someone else could refine my theory.

And oddly enough, my Captcha includes Fisheries.
Steven Halter
70. stevenhalter
It occurs to me that the Fae haven't isolated the Cthaeh very well at all. As it is killing the various butterfiles, it could be using some long term variation of the butterfly effect to enforce its desired path on the world. Since it has perfect knowledge, it could do this.
The importance of the butterflies is also echoed in their appearance around Felurian.
INCyr
71. digitalgalt
I didn't finish reading all the comments, but here is my two cents after finishing NotW (guess is not really reinforced in WMF).

The Chandrian have lived for thousands of years -- actually it doesn't say that. I don't have the NotW still, but the original curse didn't say they couldn't die. It implied their existence could never end. What if they die and re-incarnate? With no memory of their former selves until a self-reveal or they are shown by other Chandrian? What if Kvothe is a re-incarnated Chandrian - seems unlikely, right? Still odd that they didn't kill him when he was a child. Or in the woods with the Draccus. Or in the group of tax-theiving bandits. Or given all of his searching and the fact that they left him alive as a child and him using their names all over the place. Why? Either he is being protected or they choose not to kill him for some reason.

What if Denna is Chandrian? No mention of her childhood, massive memory lapses in NotW, odd behaviour abounds, immense regret for 'something', drawn to Kvothe for some reason? What could possibly break him more completely?
INCyr
72. digitalgalt
Weren't the 7 cursed to be 'unable to escape their names?' In the vein of reincarnation, how horrible to be born, pursue knowledge and the greater good only to (unavoidably) become so good at naming you uncover your own true, timeless name that returns your evil past and deeds to you. What about Vashet's comment - 'There is something in you deeper than the Lethani. Something the Lethani cannot mend."

Wouldn't you lock that name in a box away from yourself and the world - even if it meant the end of your entire being?
INCyr
73. ThatGuy
My big question is "Who is Tabrolin the Great?". In the first book we hear a few bits and pieces of him. Mainly how he broke out of a tower using the name of stone and jumped to freedom with the name of the wind. So it could just be a children's story. But in WMF we get a clue that he might actually be a real person and tangled up with the Chandrian. In Shehyn's story she tells us the names of the Chandrian and the first name is "Cyphus". The story Marten tells in the Eld is about how Taborlin the Great breaks free from a cave and marches into the castle of the Sorcerer-King Scyphus.

While I'm not entirely convinced that Kovthe's name is secured in his thrice locked chest the same story of Tarbolin the great may give some credit to it. Scyphus is confident that he can beat Tarbolin in a battle of wizardry because he has his "staff" and Tarbolin's is locked in a chest. But what magic in the book uses a staff? What if the real idea was that it was Tarbolin's name was locked in the chest and that's why Scyphus felt so confident his power was stronger?

I don't think that Iax and Haliax are the same person. Aside from the fact that Iax is locked behind the doors of stone we have had them represented as seperate entities. When Bast is talking about the Cthaeh and how they ruin things he mentions Iax and Lanre as two different people and we know that Lanre is Haliax. But I agree that there is some merit to the idea that Lanre took some of Iax's power at naming.

Also I think that some people might be getting things a little muddled. There are three factions that stem from the Creation War: The Chandrian who were the betrayers of Ergen, the Amyr who were of the Ruach and joined Stelios One Eye in his quest to confound the plots of the Seven and finally the "Angels" who were wrought by Aleph to punish wrong doings in the world. The Amyr are not the "Angels" that have been incorperated to the Tehlin Church. Sidenote: I think that the "Angels" are actually the "Singers" that Haliax mentions when talking to Cinder. In Skarpi's story they are said to sing songs of power. Why would the Chandrian fear normal bards? I think that the Singers have twice in the books been that which scares the Chandrian away. The first time after they murder Kvothe's troupe I don't know why they arrive perhaps due to the repetition of Haliax's name. But I think the second time when Kvothe and all are facing the bandits and Marten is literally calling on them to protect him as he specifically names them.

I doubt that Teccam comes from the same era as Iax as seemingly too much of what he says survives verbatim. I mean people have whole quotes of what he says yet not a scrap of the biggest war of all time survives except a few twisted tales?

As for who's patron Denna is I have no idea. It could be one of the Amyr who got her to go to the wedding to check out the pottery. It could be one of the Chandrian who is trying to get a singer to compose a song that will muddle the true history of them which is clearly a big motive for them. It’s not that farfetched as it’s clear that the Chandrain employ mortals to work for them as is clear from the banditry in the Eld. But then why send her to the wedding in the first place?

Who is the eight person on the pottery? Where did the symbol of blood all over the hand come from. Could it be from Stelios One Eye? I mean stabbing your own eye would mean that you’d get some blood on your hands. And the burning tower insignia is most likely a reference to Myr Tariniel’s towers burning. But why does Nina fear him more than the Seven? Why does she literally say “He looked like he was ready to burn down the whole world.” when that’s the exact opposite of what the Amyr want? Didn’t Stelios One Eye start the Amyr to stop the Chandrian who were trying to destroy the world?

And the last thing is: What are the Grey Stones? I originally thought that they were the way into Fae but Kvothe doesn’t mention using one when he is escorted from Fae by Fleurian. So where do they lead? I don’t think that they’re the doors of stone but I have no evidence for that. But I do think that the Lockless door is where Iax is imprisoned.

I guess there are just too many questions with too many possible answers. I can’t wait for the third book to hopefully get all the answers.
Maiane Bakroeva
74. Isilel
Hm, wasn't Netalia Lockless supposed to be Meluan's _younger_ sister? And Meluan herself is just a few years older than Kvothe, right? Also, I seem to nebulously remember Kvothe mentioning visits to his mother's family in NoTW and how awkward they were. Am I misremembering something?

Re: Denna, I was sure that she was an Amyr in NoTW, but most of her behavior seems to have gotten rather more mundane explanations in WMF and Mr. Ash sounds suspiciously like one of the Chandrian, particularly with the different take on Lanre. Also, it seems more than a coincidence that she is at Severen when one of the Chandrian is operating in the area.
BTW, I am glad that attack on the troupe got a somewhat logical explanation - it seemed a bit ad-hoc that Kvothe's family would be singled out by most infamous immortal villains of the setting.

I had the same thought Adem/Edema Ruh - and in fact the weird attitude of Adem re: music makes excellent sense in that context, as performing would have beenthe integral part of their despised/persecuted past.

I also think that Ambrose Jackis will continue his cardboard plot-line by becoming the king for whom Kvothe got one of his catchy titles ;).

Generally, IMHO Kvothe's University travails continue to feel seriously fake and out of place in a Renaissance/Enlightment-like setting.
I mean, Ambrose living at an inn? Ambrose and other rich/noble students not having servants? Ambrose _working_ as a scribe? Kvothe ignoring what has been the most sure source of income for poor students historically - tutoring (it used to be way more lucrative when the pool of educated people was small)?
Kvothe the genius who is supposedly so ardent in pursuit of knoweldge getting completely discouraged after a few weeks without progress with his inventions and abandoning them? Ple-ease. I was sorry that the so-often mentioned expulsion didn't happen in this book.

Generally, I'd love it if it eventually turned out that Kvothe was exxagerating things a little. I mean, his feud is with the worst villains this world has (supposedly), he is the most (in)famous scholar the University has ever known, the best musician the Eolian ever had, he is deflowered by a fae queen (only the best for him, LOL), etc. It is just all too much, IMHO and makes me like him less rather than more.
INCyr
75. Avatrix
@67 In his blog Rothfuss mentioned that in his original drafts, Devi wasn't part of the story. Rothfuss had written all three books without her; it was during his years of edits that Devi was added. While she does play an important role in Kvothe's University experience and is an interesting character, this tells me that Devi cannot play a critical role in pivotal plot points. That said, assuming the four plated door in the archives has a part in book three, I imagine Devi will be involved.
INCyr
76. piapiapiano
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I've been wondering about Vashet's "poet king". Kvothe's sword's Ademish name means poet-killer, and Kvothe is himself dubbed the king-killer.

Have we already met a character who could be the poet-king?
Joanne
77. Joanne
Thank you all for the great insights into the book this post and comments have given me. There is so much more to find than one would think at first sight.

One thing I would like to point out is that there are several hints in the books that Kvothe is actually not that great as the stories make him out to be.

Yes, he is very intelligent, a talented musician and sympathist, but first and foremost a showman but throughout the story he tells he keeps pointing out his failures.

He as a strong alar, but Devi beats him soundly,
He finds the name of the wind, but Fela does better and finds the name of stone before him,
He points out several times that he has no understanding for exact sciences like mathematics and chemistry (and alchemy) at all.
He learns fighting with the adem quickly, but mostly because he is literally fighting for his life (or limbs) and at the end of it is about as good as a 10 year old girl.

Mostly his fame comes from his acts of recklessness and bravery, and he consciously enhances his reputation using his showmanship and is actually spreading fake rumours about himself.

I would therefore be not at all surprised if the rescued princess story was actually based on the girls he saved from the bandits. Just as in the first book he did not actively ‘burn down the town of Trebon’ as is mentioned on the cover. It rather was sort of collateral damage in the whole draccus incident.
Marius Gedminas
78. mgedmin
One thing bugs me that I haven't seen mentioned in any of the comment threads yet: in TWMF the students claim they are forbidden to share the secrets of magic with outsiders (Unsanctioned Divulgence or Illicit Revelation). Yet in TNotW we had Ben teaching those secrets to Kvothe, who later mentions that fact to the masters of the University during his admittance exam, without eliciting any negative reactions.
INCyr
79. philosophygeek
@78: that might be a restriction on students only. Presumably someone who has earned the gilder is mature enough to be trusted not to share the information irresponsibly, just like they are trusted to use sympathy out in the world responsibly. It seems plausible that full arcanists are allowed to offer instruction to pupils in preparation for their work at the University.
lake sidey
80. lakesidey
Wow, two spoiler thread posts...and a chapterwise re-read too! We're lucky! And I'm late to the party....took too long to lay hands on Wise Man's Fear, alas.

@76 piapiapiano: "Kvothe's sword's Ademish name means poet-killer" but I don't think the story supports this - Kote is amazed almost to laughter at the idea. But we know that when he first heard the name Seicera he heard it as Caesura (which is a break in poetry) and hence it is plausible that in legend passed on through hearsay, someone added the plausible detail and made it "Kaysera, the poet-killer".

BTW hats off, Alekhia. I did wonder if Netalia could be his mother when I was reading but I never noticed that line in the poem.

@34 Jonathan: I had the same idea. He does keep mentioning it! (Also, Devi has "an Alar like an Ocean in Storm". I wonder how does one quiet that? Plus is it something a wise man fears.

@35 chrispin: I believe Devan specifically mentions that Iron is the only name he knows. Of course, we don't have any reason to think of him as particularly reliable either.

@44 branna: I thought the "singers" who split off were the Ruh, eventually. Possibly I'm mistaken. Need to go re-read.

~lakesidey
INCyr
81. 12stargazers
Isilel@74
I never assumed that Kvoth's world was a
Renaissance/Enlightment-like world despite the very European-looking map. There are too many references to things that weren't created in this world until the industrial revolution. The descriptions of the Underthing environment alone imparts a steam-punkish Victorianism crossed with an archaeological cross section involving stuff going all the way back to medieval times and possibly earlier.

As for the Kvothe earning money from tutoring.... The university seems to be organized along a master/journeyman/apprentice(s) structure where the apprentice tries on several areas to see where his/her skills lie.

As for the nobles' lack of personal servants, they're not important to the story as told by Kvothe about Kvothe. Servants in the world do exist and are shown when necessary, its just that Kvothe can't afford one and has never had one, so they don't register with him. He also doesn't/can't run with the crowd that has them.

Ambrose as a scribe I also find believable. He's after the power that comes from knowledge. So he'd want to do his own work in the areas that interested him. The library's sheer volume of books as well as the variety of subjects as well as the lack of photocopiers (or an alchemical knock off) requires that he be a scribe so he can work there.
Dylan Thurston
82. dthurston
I'm surprised no one has pointed out something that seemed fairly obvious to me: Kvothe shows definite signs of becoming an Amyr himself. When he passes the sword tree test at the end of Chapter 123 of WMF, he cuts his hand and, in making the gesture meaning willing, clenches his fist so that blood runs between his fingers and down his hand. This is the posture depicted on the pottery fragment, and the blood runnng down the backs of the hands is established as a sign of the Ciridae in Kvothe's story in Chapter 37.
Maiane Bakroeva
83. Isilel
Stargazers @81:

OK, let it be Victorianism. It still doesn't change my points.

The university seems to be organized along a master/journeyman/apprentice(s) structure where the apprentice tries on several areas to see where his/her skills lie.

And the speed with which students complete the course as well as amount of tuition for a given term depends on their performance, both in class and duting the admissions, right?

It seems to me that given his reputation, there was plenty of scope for Kvothe to support himself via private tutoring, both of hopefuls who want to enter and of weaker students. There should have been a lot of demand for it and it should have payed incomparably more than unloading wagons or whatever.
It is only in the later 20-tieth century that value of private tutoring plumetted enough for recompense to become comparable. When education was rare, giving lessons payed far more.

As for the nobles' lack of personal servants, they're not important to the story as told by Kvothe about Kvothe.

But they should have been important, as somebody like Ambrose should have had a bevy of them and even Simmond et al. should have had at least one. Servants were very prevalent everywhere until WWI in our world.

He's after the power that comes from knowledge. So he'd want to do his own work in the areas that interested him.

But one needn't be a scribe to get full access to the library. Ambrose could have just payed some scribe to show him around and could have still got the most out of the Archives.
Drunge Hays
84. bumblepants
Ambrose has been noted at making several (poor) attempts at poetry. Perhaps he could be the poet killed along with being the king killed. I almost prefer the idea suggested above where Bredon becomes the king to be killed, Ambrose almost seems too obvious.

Does anyone have any theories on the guy living in the Archives (I forget his name) ? He has to come back and be integral to the story somehow. Perhaps when the door comes into play he will be involved.
INCyr
85. Neil_from_Purdue
@32. After reading the previous spoiler thread, I saw that HLS11 pointed out a couple of things:

Denna wears Yllish braids in her hair.
When Denna asked about magic, she wanted to know if you could write something down and make it true.

But add this to the fact we learned in Elodin's class:

“The Yllish people never developed a written language,” she said.

“Not true,” Elodin said. “They used a system of woven knots.” He made a complex motion with his hands, as if braiding something. “And they were doing it long before we started scratching pictograms on the skins of sheep.”

Denna has been weaving words into her hair to make them true!

Now I'm tempted to try to go back and find every reference to her hair and reread them.

I picked up on this too, and in my re-read, Denna is always playing with her hair, tying and re-tying it throughout WMF. And you can see subtile things happen that could possibly be due to her "knot magic." I can't think of anything specific, but there is definately something fishy happening every time it mentions her playing with her hair.
INCyr
86. Neil_from_Purdue
No one in this thread has discussed the possiblity of Master Ash being Cinder. Kvothe gives Denna's abusive patron the nickname "Master Ash." Could he be unwittingly naming Cinder as Ash?
INCyr
87. Neil_from_Purdue
@50, 51:

The suspicious sailor who follows Kvothe and boards the ship at the last minute was, in my opinion, hired by Ambrose. He heard from the local nobility that Kvothe was on his way to Vint and that he would be sailing through the Pirate Isles (governed by his father). So he hires a man to follow Kvothe and make sure he gets on the boat. Then this man helps the pirates attack the ship and does his best to get Kvothe killed. I think Kvothe hasn't put this all together in his head yet and Kote will explain on day 3 of when he realised that Ambrose was resposible.
INCyr
88. Neil_from_Purdue
Bumblepants:

Your 84 comment makes sence. And perhaps Ambrose's father is the Poet King that Vashet worked for. The Ambrose men seem to be the type to believe that a woman was no more than fertile ground for a man. I think Ambrose is the king and poet of Kingkiller and poet-ender, or whatever the sword was named.
INCyr
89. ChrisOrmie
Just a quick thought here. I was always puzzled about the relationship between Bast and Kvothe, but I'm starting to lean towards the fact that Bast might actually be Kvothe's son by Felurian. I'd also go as far as to suggest that 'Reshi' could translate to 'Father' or something of that nature.

Great spots by people above and some cool theories too - just thought I'd chuck mine into the pot for people to ponder. After waiting years for the conclusions to ASOIAF and WOT, I'm hoping the third day of Kvothe's telling comes soon!
INCyr
90. Dromacus
I just want to point the scene where Kvothe and Elodin spoke about Denna. When Kvothe said that she was always changing her name, Elodin answered asuming they where speaking of Real names, so there's a way someone could change his real name... and changing his real name would change themselves... The fae could be human namers who find a way to change their names and the names of the others. Lanre was human once, after gaining considerable power and hability at naming so he becomes a Chandrian, and he could know the name of the rest because he modified their names to make them powerful and inmortal.
Kvothe cannot use simpathy and he can barely fight... Did someone change his name? Did he change his own name?
Rob Munnelly
91. RobMRobM
Finally finished the book thank goodness, but immediately need to begin re-reading NoTW.

My big question is - what does the title of the book mean? Wise men fear the anger of a quiet man, is one of the lines. That, to me, points to Bredon as a problem person. If not Bredon, then who? And, re merits, I kind of like the theory that Bredon is Amyr. Thus, he is watching Kvothe closely, Kvothe makes some sort of dangerous, massive screw up, Bredon gets really angry with devasting consequences for Kvothe (and, likely Deena).

Rob
Jo Walton
92. bluejo
RobMRobM: It says there are three things a wise man fears -- the anger of a quiet man, the sea in storm, and a moonless night. WMF is the book of the moon. Pay attention to moon mentions as you re-read NOTW!
Rob Munnelly
93. RobMRobM
Thanks, Jo, will do - but I still have quiet men on the brain and whether that piece will be relevant.
INCyr
94. TICAL
Seems Denna will be responsible for reading the Yllish knots which will lead to the box opening...

Elodin has to be more than just the teacher whose taught kvothe the art of naming...

Something has to be said of the fact that Elodin also is trying to help/learn something about or from Auri.
INCyr
95. Yiks
Denna might be a princess but the princess kvothe is always refering to seems to be named ariel. In WMF Kvothe tells Aaron of his true identity and one of the things he mentins is "The truth about princess Ariel."

...havent heard another mention of princess Ariel in the books....but im not as thorough as most of you are.
INCyr
96. Rodime
We're all assuming that Kvothe is Kote... but Kote is an unreliable narrator.

Elodin has some interesting words for people who change their name. That applies to Kote as well.

If names have meaning and power, and one changes their name ... what happens then?

Either Kvothe has his alar broken - The "Ramston steel" that is the best knife you'll ever own until it breaks - or Kvothe is NOT Kote, but somehow Kote is telling the story of Kvothe.

Kote may be telling a story of Kvothe, and they may or may not be the same person. But the story (that is being told, not the books!) has significance, and Rothfuss will surprise us with a few nice twists in book three (as he's been doing all along).

What does Kote want to accomplish by telling the story? Is he re-creating himself as Kvothe? Has "kvothe" returned to felurian, and left a shell of a man named Kote behind? Kvothe is mentioned as being a little fae in book 1 ... perhaps his fae part has left?

What if Kvothe is revealed to be the next king (not ambrose) and the place where he fakes his death (to become Kote) is the place in Imre where the stones are shattered? Thus, Kvothe ... the king killer *and* victim.

And what about the list of rings he wears?

We know what the bone ring is, and the wood, and the invisible one ... but what of the rest? Does he have a ring made of Felurian?
INCyr
97. Rodime
... Is Kvothe actually (unwittingly) working for the WRONG SIDE? And Denna (and mr. ash) are good guys ?!?!?

And if the Chandrian are just misunderstood and actually good, but the Amyr are bad? Maybe the definition of good and bad is wrong - maybe the Chandrian are working towards reuniting Fae & Earth, but the Amyr are working against that!?

THAT WOULD BLOW MY MIND.
INCyr
98. DominiqueG
First of all, let me just say I loved this post! Otherwise, a few things...

... I, too, was 99% intuitively sure that Kvothe's mother was Netalia Lackless, so thank you for finding that song line and making it solid!

... Something no one else mentioned that I thought of when first reading Kvothe's story of the lost old man Sceopi wandering among the campfires was that possibly Sceopi=Skarpi. He is a wandering old man who, after being taken in by the Edema Ruh, becomes a remarkable story teller. Just a thought.

... Just a little nitpicky: while utterly malignant, everything the Cteah (sp?) says is true. Therefore, Cinder/Ferule did kill Kvothe's parents, Master Ash is beating Denna out of evil joy, and Iax and Lanre/Haliax are different people.
INCyr
99. Marti
I am amazed at all the things you found!
However I feel there are two things missing:

I was surprised that there was only one other post mentioning the boy that lives in the archives. He gets hinted at so many times in the first book. i was very disappointed when we finally met him, and nothing interesting happens at all! (Or did I miss something ??) It seamed out of character with the rest of the book.

I do like the theories about Denna trying to reach the same or maybe exactly the opposite of what Kvothe is up to.
The tree talks to Kvothe of two things : his search of the Chandrian, which you already discussed, but also he tells him about Denna beeing beaten by Master Ash, which doesn't get mentioned very often here.
I believe this could clarify a lot of the vague parts of the theories about Denna.
If the tree knows whitch of his words will do the most harm and he chooses them accordingly, telling Kvothe about his girl beeing beaten, and not only that, but her being beaten out of evil joy! , paints a powerfull picture in Kvothes mind.
It leaves him feeling helpless, responsible somehow and guilty for not beeing able to protect her.
This ultimately keeps Kvothe from seeing in her anything else than a Victim. He finds even more excuse for her "unworthy" behavior. He loves her, so he makes it a tragic story of pain and people taking advantige of a helpless girl.
But in the end, in his eyes, she's effectivly a whore, just like she explained it to the girl she rescued. It's just not her fault.

When he explains the role of woman to the little adem(?) girl, he wants to paint a positive picture. He only thinks of his fellow students at the universitiy. The idea of Denna having her own secret way of fighting for the greater good is amusing at best. For every girl he knows he finds a good reason to be alive, Devi is strong and lends money, Mola knows medicin, Fela is kind and smart and knows the name of stone...
Not Denna. He cannot think of a reason why she is important to the world.

Saying these words, the tree actually makes sure that Kvothe will never ever take Denna seriosly.
This will effectively prevent the two of them ever having the serious hart-to-hart they so deerly need...
...leading to Kvothe "rescuing" Denna from saving, the world, killing the Chandrian or... or maybe not stopping her from doing the opposite in book three. I think he might even be responsible for her death or actually kill her himself. All because of him never being able to take her seriosly.

(I apologise for any spelling mistakes since english is not my native tongue... :) )

I would love to hear your thougths on my theories !
Steven Halter
100. stevenhalter
Marti: I think you are on the right track with the Cthae's comment about Denna. I am sure they are chosen to cause Kvothe (and us) to think in the wrong direction.
INCyr
101. BloaterPaste
What an interesting thread! So much to think about, and such great ideas!

I'm know I'm late to the game, but I always through Ash was Abenthy. We know that Abenthy is a namer and must be quite powerful. He was a logical early character for the now parentless Kvothe to go to, but he hasn't re-appeared yet.

I think Abenthy clearly know about the Chandrian. He know that Kvothe's father was working on the song, and knew that it would draw them. Perhaps he even encouraged it, and provided information on the story. Perhaps the song was even his idea. And he knew to leave the group at the right time to avoid being killed with the rest of the troup. I'm thinking that because he had all that knowledge, he's an Amyr as well.

And, at some point he'll have to reappear. While he was kind to Kvothe, he might have a different side that is more agressive that he uses in training Denna. I don't think he'll be coming back into the story as an enemy. He'll clearly be a supporter of Kvothe. But in what ways? And, what has he been doing for the past many years?

I can't wait to find out.
INCyr
102. Z-Man
1. I'm sorry for any mistakes or misunderstandings, as English isn't my native language.

2. It was quite a good job to find all those connections; I'd already thought of some of them, but never found any evidence to support it.

3. I have 3 things to say about other's comments: first, Ambrose had already left the University when Kvothe took the boat, so it'd have been quite difficult for him to hire the sinister sailor; however, as everyone seems to agree Rothfuss is in total control and everything he uses has a reason to be, I lean to the theory that either the Amyr or the Chandrian (most probably the Chandrian because they usually work through humans, while the Amyr don't) hired him. And, about that "Princess Ariel", I'm quite sure it's Denna who he is talking about: in Severen, she was called Alara, and that is closer to Ariel (by the way, there's probably something about Denna in Yll; you may have noticed that before heading to Yll she used names similar to Denna (Dinnah, for example), and that has nothing to do with Alara; and, as Elodin said,

"It could indicate she doesn't know who she is"

, so her name would change depending on who she thought she was; therefore, something that happened in Yll made her change drastically the way she saw herself (I'm sure there's a word for this but I don't know it). So I lean to her being the Yllish princess, as that would explain the whole "Princess Ariel". Last, the Cthaeh says:

"The masters at the University might know the answers you're looking for."

And, as it is the most reliable thing in all the story (as it can't lie), it would make some sense that the Amyr really founded the University (apart from that Amyr+re stuff), or the Chandrian, as that's the only way for them to know. And it then says:

"But they wouldnt tell you even if you did ask, which you wont."

And the Amyr are the ones who tend to hide every bit of their past.

However, these are mainly conjetures (don't bother asking for more proof as I already ran out).

P.s. I just noticed if the Chandrian want to kill Kvothe (or at least to stop him) and Denna will betray him (I am quite sure of this), the theory of Ash being an Amyr makes no sense, while he still may be Bredon, or even Abenthy.
INCyr
103. Soy
Wow, absolutely amazing thread, love the stuff i read here!

There are a couple of things i haven't noticed yet though which i thought a bit strange though, but im probably just dead wrong or skipped it.

firstly @Z-Man: That is exactly what i was thinking about Denna too! We have never actually learned her true name, only what she wants Kvothe to call her in other words 'Denna'. COnsidering what others have said above i find it highly plausible indeed that Denna could be the Princess Ariel Kvothe refers to when he talks to Aaron.

Secondly, in regards to Kvothe's reduction in power and loss of identity, i had never thought of the stuff about the box and his change of name before, and this makes perfect sense and im completely on the bandwagon. But also another thing i haven't seen yet i think is worth mentioning. We have a POV from the chronicler and we see him relating within his mind a story along the lines of kvothe goes looking for his hearts desire (denna/ariel), he tricked a demon (chandrian?!), and had to fight an angel to keep it, specifically the quote went something like this from memory, "Now i could beleive it, this is the face of a man who had killed an angel." Perhaps this has some underlying significance that contributes to the overarching story as a whole?

Furthermore, a little bit about Auri. She hasn't been talked about much and there is little that Rothfuss has done and put in this book that isn't relevant to the greater whole. Perhaps she plays some important role within the archives? Also i beleive we also know the name she had and what she was before she fled. In NoTW (i think) Kvothe is talking to Wil and SImmon about the things Ambrose has done to people who offend him, and i remeber one it was a girl named "Tabetha who made noise about AMbrose wanting to marry her. SHe just disappeared" could this be Auri?

Lastly there are a number of names we haven't heard yet, specifically Shadicar? Lightfinger? (idk if this was one) and Dulator? What possible meanings and what significance do these final names bring?
INCyr
104. Soy
OK sorry for double post but i also found something very interesting in regards to Bredon. I always was dismissive of Bredon being one of the Chandrain but now i am pulled a different way, look at this:
He says to Kvothe: "Please...These are yours without obligation, let or lien",
Now lets compare this to what Bast says to the Chronicler: "Here. It is a freely given gift. I offer it without obligation, let, or lien.
Both cases, exactly the same oath of sorts. Now we know Bast is of FAE. Have we ever seen humans swear such an oath? Certainly not. This similarity cannot just be coincidence.
Accepting the fact the Chandrain are Fae, this evidence almost certainly points towards Bredon being part of them. Yet, on the otherhand, he could possibly be one of the original members of the Amyr when Myr Tariniel fell. I cannot decide on either. Yet i just thought it was interesting.
INCyr
105. KatieG
Some thoughts regarding the eighth person on the pottery... Quote: But why does Nina fear him more than the Seven? Why does she literally say “He looked like he was ready to burn down the whole world.” when that’s the exact opposite of what the Amyr want? Didn’t Stelios One Eye start the Amyr to stop the Chandrian who were trying to destroy the world?
End Quote: Actually, according to Skarpi's story... ***SNIP***
Lanre:“There is no escape. I have only the hope of oblivion after everything is gone and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky.”
***SNIP***
Selitos: “this is my doom upon you and all who follow you. May it last until the world ends and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky.”
***SNIP***
Thus Selitos redefines when Lanre can be destroyed. Instead of Everything needing to end, the world and the Aleu will be enough. Remember, we have two worlds to worry about.

K
INCyr
106. RBS IV
(Also posted on 'the road to Tinue' thread) - Random thoughts & musings from memory: -There is one moon. -There are two sides to a story - Kvothe is learning one Deena another. -There are two worlds Fae and 'ours' where Kvothe is. There are possibly two kinds of magic, Kvothes, and the ‘written down’ kind Deena mentions…and that the Chronicler has attributed to him by Kote (of course there’s gods turning people into angels in the legends of the creation war, but that seems to be a ‘level-up’) -There are three days and three things the wise fear, three groups the 7 hide from, and (maybe) three factions left over from the creation war see-ers, hear-ers, and name-ers - but then there are shapers too... -There are three mystery items that Iax gets, an (iron?) box, a collapsible building, and a magic whistle. We may have been introduced to the box and the house, but I haven't seen the whistle -There are four refuges for the mind, sleep, forgetfulness, madness and death. People do cross all and return… There are four stone panes in the ‘4 pane door’. -Alar like Ramstone steel breaks – because you have to break your mind in separate parts to perform sympathy. Kvothe can manage up to (?) five in dueling… (as a beginner!) -Kvothe has been given a key (to the moon), a coin and a candle by Auri, whom he has given a name since she’s missing one. Could be she is the moon, living in the unfolded building (the University). With his Shead and Adem sword (not iron/steel?), Kvoth is only lacking a staff to be Taborlain anew -Bast has a number of rings on his mantle, of varying significance – old fading customs in humans still in use by Fae -Even without the poem Kvothe is the Maers nephew. The Lockless sister disinherited for running off with a minstrel is never specified as elder or younger. Though references read as if she’s younger, the enmity of Meluan for the Ruh makes more sense if Meluan is a younger sister abandoned by an elder one (perhaps much older) -From one of the vignettes, Fae is where all roads meet, which is where Kvothe tells Deena he’ll find her, instead of her finding him. -The waystones mark old roads…pre creation or during? -Simmon may be noble enough to be a King, he’s the only poet (Caesura using too) so far in the books, and you can’t be betrayed by your enemies, only your friends… Ambrose could be redeem himself and become… a penitent King? -The Lockless box probably has warding stones in it, Reshi probably means 'Dad' -Deena, survivor guilt as last Princess of Lost Kingdom of Yill? (remember your Prydain!) -The broken tree gets interesting. Take the one shattered in the fight with the highwaymen as foreshadowing, there are two others to break, the Adem as a people (WoT comparison here btwn peaceful travelers and warrior cultures), called to fulfill an ancient geas. Perhaps to assist a ‘chosen one’ to destroy the other tree, which shelters Fate (the Ctheah (Evil/Snake in tree) destroy fate and destroy your fated doom...)
INCyr
107. n8love
Not bothering to ref. ops since anyone who's made it to my post has had those points reiterated enough. Several points spring to mind, but most relevant to me is who the real antagonist of the entire story is. I can arrive at only one conclusion: the Cthaeh.

The Chandrian are K's immediate enemy but that doesn't make them the true antagonist of the series. I find it likely that the Cthaeh is the one who "poisoned the seven" which would make them pawns. Powerful, but still pawns in the greater plans of one who seems to know everything and have malicious intent, to say the least.

On first read I was struck by how any author could put a being of such immense power into a story. The physical nature of the Chandrian's attacks make them seem relatively impotent to me in comparison. In fact a being of such knowledge and single-minded selfishness would likely have goons to do its light work, and we already know that it doesn't need compliance to acheive its goals. It doesn't convince you, it influences you. It's like starting a rube goldberg machine anytime it talks to someone, and K has had direct contact with this thing and we know that the world has turned... crappy... since then and that K is directly related to its current state. It's logical that the Cthaeh would know of K's oath to Denna or his various heritages , Ruh or royalty, and could exploit those or a number of other devices already introduced. All the posted theories about the current state of the world are relevant here, and could all be induced by the Cthaeh via K.

What intrigues me is the extent to which the Cthaeh's breif exchange with K corrupts the future, or more precisely whether the world state was the end goal of its manipulation or a stepping stone, and what K has done or will do about it. If K has fulfilled the corrupted intent of that exchange (or a possible future meeting?) he may be free of its influence, but it seems more likely that by continuing to live at all he is still furthering its goals. Unless of course he forsook his power and identity (his name) in order to stop this process before it got any worse. Another option is that perhaps there is more magic in this world than we have learned about yet. Perhaps K is a "chosen one" who uses this new (or very old) magic to free both worlds of this Cthaeh's influence, or to unite both worlds. His linneage on his father's side makes me wonder if the "original 'singers'/Ruh connection" may imply some ancient (maybe even fae?) blood that grants him access. Or possibly changing his true name or spending time in Fae grants him a chance to learn different abilities. This is, obvioulsy a theory based on a theory based on... well its conjecture and, I realize, pretty thin.

Reaction. Go.
INCyr
108. n8love
Just a quick afterthought:

The Cthaeh need not have "said" anything specific to K to have reached its desired outcome. It's possible that it knew that he would be made aware of its power and that this alone would cause him to attribute evey negative thing that happens to him in the future to that conversation and to question every action he makes. Naturally, he would try to isolate himself from the world so as not to further the Cthaeh's goals, thereby allowing the world to decend into its current state by his mere absense. This would allow him to be Kote without actually changing his name or giving up his power. He may have chosen to lose that fight, deciding that the fate of the world was more important than his general health. He would still have been able to use sympathy to break the bottle and still have had the physical ability to take that perfect step or to kill the creatures at the beginning of book 1. This would make his "silence" an intended and practiced attribute that he affected in order to save the world from himself. Maybe he just slips sometimes, so he looks younger or does something mindlessly with sympathy for a moment. He could possibly use alar to maintain this charade.
INCyr
109. TheSeeker
Y'see. I am astounded at how many theories correspond with my own, and I am also astounded at how stupid some of these are; some people just don't pay enough attention to detail before they leap to conclusions. And more people need to read the posts before their own to make sure they're not repeating stuff. Sorry for the brief tirade, but dumbness annoys me.

The only thing I could have thought up that wasn't addressed exactly was just Master Lorren being an Amyr. But the notion of the whole of the Masters being Amyr got me thinking more; though I don't think they'd let an unmitigated Tw@twaffle (Hemme) and his fawning, obsequious boot-licker (Brandeur) work towards the greater good. Kudos to whomever thought that one up.

I just thought of this as I wrote; Hemme poisoned/damaged the Chancellor's health. Or somebody wants him out of the way, maybe because of what he was teaching Kvothe that could lead to him discovering things vertain individuals would rather keep hidden. Perhaps it's Lorren making sure the Chancellor is out of commission long enough to throw Kvothe off his stride; y'know, for the greater good and stuff.
INCyr
110. Kamudaki
Pretty much every theory I've had about the series so far has been repeated here, so it's good to know I'm not just reading too much into things, or at least that I'm not the only one.

The only thing I havn't read is my theory that the naked woman on the vase, as described by the girl (Netty?) is Felurian. If this was already stated somehwere, I apologise, but it seems very likely given that Kvothe makes dozens of references to her nudity, and it was the main feature described by Netty. Also, she's really the only the character that would fit the bill, as far as I'm aware, as we havn't been introduced to any other powerfully magical women.

In any case, this would go some way to explaining her frank and terrifying promise of what she would do to Kvothe if he continued to ask about the Chandrian. It seems to go far beyond the normal reluctance towards speaking of them that other characters exhibit, but this may just be because she is Fae.

As I write, I see a connection between Devi and Master Lorren. They are the incarnation of two of the things a wise man fears; Devi's Alar being like a Sea in Storm, and Kvothe always being cautious not to upset Lorren, incurring the Anger of a Gentle Man. Also, Devi clearly is desperate to get into the Archives, Lorren's domain.

At the minute I can't glean any deeper meaning from this, but if anyone has any thoughts I'd be glad to hear them.
INCyr
111. Mcknuckles
Above I've read mention of a princess Ariel to be saved by Kvothe?
Kvothe named Auri, Auri....
Elodian was surprised by this, when he told him...
Auri = Ariel??
INCyr
112. MathDoctor
I like the Master Ash is Brendon is Amyr thought. It might be that Denna is in training to be an Amyr, and that the Cthaeh mixes truth with stating that Denna cries herself to sleep because he beats her. Those (in my opinion) are just wounds from training. They were at the wedding trying to fight the Chandarin (and she is protecting Kvothe by not letting him know).

Anyone else see this? That is, Denna isn't a weak woman who is battered, but a warrior in training?
INCyr
113. fisika
Master Ash is Cinder and Bredon. The Cthaeh says that the chandrian are good at hiding their signs, Cinders sign is his eyes. And if he can hide them easily, then no problem. Also the Cthaeh says that meeting Cinder "again" is a twice in a lifetime occurance. Once as Bredon and once in the forest? But how can he act so nice? Remember the scene when Kvothe's family is killed, Cinder at first really seems totally genuinely hurt for Kvothe, he mentions the sincerity in his eyes, then he changes and teases Kvothe instead. The point being that Cinder is a good actor. Bredon also says when he is explaining what a good game is, that a good game is tricking the person who knows to be on the offensive into letting you into their defenses.

I've also thought a lot about why Cinder would want Denna to write the song about Lenre. I think there are two reasons. In the first Chandrian scene, it is clear that Haliax uses the Name of Cinder to control him, he says that they are his tools and he seems to have contempt for them, and they for him (just my impression). Cinder might want to know more about Lanre, his lineage, his story, in hopes of discovering his Name and thereby freeing himself from Haliaxes control. Also, if hearing their names calls them, then having the whole world singing a song about Lanre would really drive him nuts. That last part about the song is just an idea.

On a different topic, I think Meluan might realize who Kvothe is, I mean that he is her nephew. Think about it, she hates her sister and the Ruh he ran off with, I doubt she would harbor any special feelings for Kvothe just because they are related, and his presence and existance would be a bad thing for her or her children. And her hatred of him simply for being Ruh is over the top. Especially after one moment before she was sharing her greatest secret with him. I also think she must be Amyr or have something to do with the Amyr, because the Cthaeh says that the Maer has been close to them without knowing it and will lead Kvothe to their "Door." and that he is making a funny joke which Kvothe will get eventually. Could he be talking about the Lackless door, that is the door they most often talk about besides the "door of stone"
INCyr
114. Starstruck
I'm generally clueless when it comes to speculation, but the ring unseen has to be him making a ring of Wind, much like Fela made a ring of Stone? He even implied to Elodin that he had done so, but he wouldn't even have to have been telling the truth for it to be 'unworn.'
INCyr
115. Torsk
Regarding the Haliax, Iax, Jax confusion: I don't think Iax/Jax and Haliax/Lanre can be the same person, since in Skarpi's story:
"Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match his skill in names: Aleph, Iax, and Lyra. Lanre had no gift for names ..."

The closeness of the names might still have meaning, but they are not the same person (unless Skarpi lied).

Cheers!
INCyr
116. StineNorway
At some point Kvothe says that he had to kill an Angel. Anyone got any ides as to who this is? I thought at first that it must be Denna, and that he refered to her in that manner due to his love for her and thus his somewhat non-objective view on her personality. Then I remembered Auri..

So.. Any ideas, people?
INCyr
118. TheStool
I have the sensation that Skarpi is an Amyr himself. He knows "the true story" of the birth of the Chandrian from the Amyrs' point of view. Also, he is somehow so influential that he can escape the accusation of heresy - maybe the secret Amyr organization took care of it.
(I'm sorry for all mispelled words, english isn't my mother language).
INCyr
119. the singers
1/ In WMF, when asked what he would like to do after the university, Kvothe mentioned going to the nomadic lands, he mentions singing, and i'm pretty sure he will go there in the next book. And meet Denna, once again.

2/ I think in the third book, Kvothe will crack from the naming and he will explore the underthing where he will uncover secrets of the university, possibly the way to opening the door of stone.

3/ The door of stone is the lockless heirloom, that's why it is also Master Lorren's domain. Lorren being an ancestor of the lockless family. Master Lorren does know Kvothe's father, because Arliden stole Natalia away from their family.

4/ He mentioned "songs that make minstrel's weep" that is probably a test he has to past during his stay with the singers.

5/ Kvothe will go in to the fae again through waystones. I don't understand who Bast is and what is his role.
INCyr
120. Ivy123
Poet-king: Didn't Kvothe deride Ambrose for his bad poetry?
INCyr
121. Stargazer
(How did this thread start getting active again? Huh. Well, might as well help keep it going some more!)

Torsk @115, agreed, completely. My take is that Iax/Jax is the one who corrupted Lanre and turned him into Haliax/Alaxel. Iax is the Emperor and Haliax is Vader, if you will. (Query to Dept. of Imaginary Linguistics: Do we have any sightings of the morpheme 'Hal' meaning something like 'from' or 'servant of' or anything like that?)

Some more evidence for this shows up in Skarpi's story: Just after the bit about the Blac of Drossen Tor, he says "After the battle was finished and the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone, survivors found Lanre's body". Ah, so there's an enemy who was set behind the doors of stone, and who thus cannot be Lanre or Haliax running around outside. So that's Iax. In fact, Felurian confirms this in WMF 122, when Kvothe asks who stole the moon and she replies "I will not speak of that one, though he is shut behind the doors of stone."

Now, cross-reference with Hespe's story. Jax has a mansion with doors that open all over the world, "a great many ways both in and out" that "could be closed, even locked, but never made fast." And we know the end result of Drossen Tor was to lock the enemy behind the doors of stone. Ergo, the doors of stone must block the myriad portals into Iax's domain in Fae or whatever alternate subdimension of Shaper-land his crazy castle is in. That's what's behind the stone door in the Archives: a gateway into the house of Iax, now his prison, which could not be made fast but was locked long ago and presumably behind which he still waits. Let's just say it would probably be a really, really bad idea to open that door, or any of the presumably many others like it elsewhere.

Haliax/Lanre/Alaxel, meanwhile, is outside, running about with his minions, the Chandrian. And remember, they have a "purpose", or so says Haliax to Cinder. My guess is that the purpose just might have something to do with door opening...

(Incidentally, I suspect the Lockless family heirlooms may well be related to the locks on Iax's prison.)



@118 TheStool: There are no misspelled words in your post. :-)
INCyr
122. thenewdarkness
I had noticed some of the things you mentioned - the bit about Kvothe's mother being Meluan Lackless' sister seemed obvious, though lacking in concrete proof. After all, he does know that she was a nobleman's daughter. Still, it is good to find 'confirmation' of these little details.

Bredon is a mysterious figure. It is evident he will appear again in The Doors of Stone as in the second volume he only had a very minor role. His presence was a teaser - a suggestion of something better to come. Personally I believe he is either Master Ash or one of the human Amyr, as we know of no others who have actually met him. I do not recall any mentioning of him by the Maer or by anyone else, not even in passing. That alone makes me wonder, especially because the Maer Alveron seems to keep an eye on everything that happens.

The Maer is another important character, I believe. It is plausible that they will meet again, due to the unseen connection he has with the Order Amyr, as stated by the Cthaeh. That and the fact he and his wife are in possession of the strange wooden thingy with the Yllish knots. Of course, I wonder if they will find out about the fact that Meluan is in fact Kvothe's aunt - if it is true.

I also think we have yet to discover another brilliantly hidden character: Skarpi! He has important connections in the Church - does that mean he's an Amyr? After all, the Amyr are a bit like the Knights Templar - they are hidden in positions of power.

All said and told, I just can't wait for the next and last installment of this series. Which is probably the reason I'm reading this post in the first place.

Come on Pat!
INCyr
123. Paladin Latham
Heres one that no one has mentioned: Elodin didn't just say there were seven words to make a woman love you. He also said there were ten words that would break a strong man.
INCyr
124. Nae77blis77
I do not know if this has been posted already, however.

I just finished a re-read of both books. I just realized we know what is behind the door of stone. (probably the lockless door not the Archive door) Felurian outright states that Iax, the most powerful Shaper, he who stole the moon, built the fae, and started the Creation War, is locked behind the doors of stone.

I have no idea how I missed this the first couple of times through, but it is there. Now knowing book 3 will be called Doors of stone, I theorize that Kvothe opens this door letting Iax out. This restarts the Creation War. the screalings are a part of the forces of the Fae, but the world at large has no knowledge of this due to their long disbelief of the fae and turning those they did remember into demons.
INCyr
125. Jeremy McLeod
I was pretty sure about Kvothe's mother being the run-off Lackless daughter the first time I read the book, but that last line of Arliden's song is just screaming it out for everyone to hear. Good catch!

I also caught the Bredon = Master Ash connections my second time reading through TWmF... there are too many clues thrown at the reader over too short of a span for it to be coincidence, in my opinion at least.

I don't, however, think Iax = Haliax. Probably Hal means something like "son of" or "student of" and Haliax is continuing Iax's work. Or, Hal means something like "nemesis of" and he's actually working to undo it.

Blacked body of God, I can't wait for book three...
INCyr
126. Hajt
No one mentioned this, but one question I've heard about the scene where Kvothe loses the fight to the soldiers in the Inn is whether he intentionally lost. He says something like "I forgot who I was", which could mean that he forgot that he was no longer Kvothe.
Nathan Love
127. n8love
@126
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/08/rothfuss-reread-speculative-summary-part-3-fire-thunder-broken-tree-speculations-on-kvothe
Nick Spacek
128. nickspacek
@123 RE: Skarpi, Chronicler seems to know him somewhat, so Chronicler is probably involved in whatever institution Skarpi belongs to.
INCyr
129. sprite420
Does Master Lorren seem like someone who would concern himself with a student's reputation? Not likely. In WMF, he even says, "My concern is not for the boy..."

And yet, in NOTW, he claims this as his motive for his intervention in Tomes when Kvothe was requesting information on the Chandrian and the Amyr. Notice that Lorren does not intervene when Kvothe is only requesting information about the Chandrian. But the moment his search turns to the Amyr, Lorren steps in personally to put a stop to it.
INCyr
130. sprite420
Also, Lorren's odd reaction to the name of Kvothe's father is worth mentioning, but i don't buy into this oft-repeated theory that Lorren is some distant relative of the Lackless family.

He would have to be a pretty close relative, like a brother or an uncle, to actually know the name of the man for whom Natalia Lackless disgraced her rather important family.

It seems more likely to me that the Amyr got wind of Arliden's song, which is how Lorren recognizes the name. He calls him "Arliden the Bard," rather than actor/trouper, (much to Kvothe's annoyance,) which implies that Lorren knows him only for his songwriting.

I'm also not convinced that the Lackless Door and the Four-Plate Door are the same. Weren't we told that the Lackless Door was in the oldest part of the Lackless estate? That's half a world away from Imre. I'll agree that they are probably related, but i doubt that they are the same. Remember, the next book is called, "The Doors of Stone," which implies more than one big, important stone door.
INCyr
131. joshuafaramir
He did kill an angel right? I wondere'd if he killed one of the Amyr for Denna?
INCyr
132. Aurelie
I wonder if the angel he killed wasn't Auri. If indeed Auri's name is Ariel, as suggested by Elodin, the outcome would be very interesting. I don't remember exactly but I think Ariel is the name of an archangel who enforces God's law or something. Maybe she's staying at the university to make sure that whatever is behind those sealed doors stays there, as directed by the Amyr or the church; so Kvothe consequently kills her to access to the doors. Hopefully I'm wrong, I hope Auri survives all this!

However, I remember reading somewhere that Auri could be the moon. Now, this may seem convoluted but it reminds me of Lanre's curse which would last until the world ends and the Aleu falls nameless from the sky. If "Aleu" refers to the moon and Auri has already fallen from the sky (fallen angel!) not remembering her name (or not wanting to remember her name) then the Chandrian have managed to take one step towards ending this curse. Could that be their purpose?

Finally, on a side note, I can see an early connection with Bast in NotW. In Imre, the fountain/sculpture not far from the Eolian depicts a satyr running after girls which could potentially look like Bast. Kvothe broke stones in that area and maybe liberated or summoned Bast at the same time. Whatever the connection, I believe that Pat has introduced all of the important characters to the story in the first 2 books. Now the main action can take place and everything needs to be tied up and explained!

Looking forward to Day 3!! =)
INCyr
133. Name way to important
Not trying to interupt flow of discussion but does anyone have a good guess as to when DoS will be out, even a year...?
INCyr
134. Funk
I like the comments about Devan Lochess. I think it's fair to say Chronicler is a Lackless. Could it be that Chronicler is the "son who brings the blood"? I'm on board that Kvothe is a part of the Lackless line, but perhaps Chronicler's bloodline explains Bast's actions. Bast clearly has some strong reason to think that Chronicler can help bring back the old Kvothe. He claims it is by getting Kvothe to tell his story, but Bast seems to be pretty shady in the way he works.

What does this mean to me? I think Kvothe was the son who brings the blood which allows him to open the Lackless box. As he did this he perhaps released the moon, but also lost his name. Chronicler will have to be the son to bring the blood so that Kote can open the box again and bring back the old Kvothe.

Thoughts?
INCyr
135. Amal
Loved this post. The Meluan Lockless connection blew my mind off. Going back to NotW, has anyone noticed that Kvothe hasn't been called 'Dulator' by Denna yet? Maybe that is left for DoS, or maybe, Denna isn't his true love!!!!

I really want to know why he is called Kingkiller. Maybe the Cthaeh angle of the story is a much bigger thing. Maybe the present condition of Kvothe is exactly because he talked to them.

Too many possibilities. Can hardly wait for DoS.
INCyr
136. danhellostack
What about that bit in the wise man's fear, when denna asks kvothe about magic systems and asks him if there is magic where, when ypu say something it comes true. Although kvoth says there isn't, i think she is implying that she can, bringing a whole new dimension to the denna/kvothe interplay?
INCyr
137. Muadibz
Really great thread.

One thing that's missing from the original post having to do with Kvothe's bloodlines I actually found on the book's website. Rothfuss gives a passage from the book which is actually a huge spoiler but no one seems to notice it. It also confirms most likely that Kvothe is the lackless heir.

The quote:
"Save perhaps that my mother was a noble before she was a trouper. She told me my father had lured her away from “a miserable dreary hell” with sweet music and sweeter words. I could only assume she meant Three Crossings, where we went to visit relatives when I was very young. Once."

So there you have it ... in Chapter 8 of NotW he tells us that his mother is noble ... just to him noble means from Three Crossings not a Lackless.
INCyr
138. Slime
A few thoughts:

Another thing to add to the Auri discussion is the fact that she knows about the Ciridae, the elite faction of Amyr. They are not mentioned very often elsewhere and she freaks out when K asks about them.

The stone doors doesn't necessarily mean multiple entry ways. Could be two doors opening to the same passage,as in one swings towards you and left one swings towards you to the right, you walk through the middle of both.

It might also be the grey stones though? Multiple entry's, lots of scattered stones.

I have always thought K somehow locked his name away in his thrice locked box, but I never made the Cthaeh tree as wood connection.

Could 'restoring the honor of the Edema Ruh' be when he saves the girls? He makes sure everyone knows it wasn't them and he brands the impostors with the broken circle. Finally he expresses great satisfaction when he hears several versions of the story later with no mention if the edema.

Has anyone given thought to the idea that not only does K return to Fae, but stays there a really long time? We have no context of the time period in the frame story. When with Farulian, he is there for months/years but only days pass in the real world. We have stories of young men returning as old men. He also tells Bast and Chronicler that they are 'both so young.' At first glance people tend to think he's older but then they look and physically he appears young. Just a thought.

Finally, did anyone else notice how often he uses 7 word phrases? Almost every time he talks to denna ( she calls him out) but in other places as well (for all that, she lacked your fire, etc). Also when he first starts he says I know 7 words to make a woman live you.
INCyr
139. Maximus
Just a thought, I just finished the second day this morning and after I read some of the comments above I had a sudden small realization. I don't really have a ton to back this up but here it is anway.

from th above text:
"Since the folding house was actually Faerie, we can assume that the flute and the box also represent something else. The flute could be anything with the power to call something else, and the box is something that is able to hold names."

Could said box perhaps be the box that was presented to Kvothe by the Maer's wife? Could the object inside be the flute mentioned in the story? Or could opening said box and releasing the name of the moon cause the invasion of the spider like creatures. I would love some feedback on this.
INCyr
141. Reese
Just a few things that I've thought as I've been reading through all of this:

There is a lot of assumption about the Cthaeh as the primary enemy that Kvothe's journey will led him against, but I wonder how that could be possible if K is unaware of the Cthaeh's fabled power. When Bast interjects and explains about the Cthaeh, I got the distinct impression that Kvothe was hearing it for the first time.If this is so, then it makes no sense that K would eventually come to focus his attention specifically on countering the Cthaeh's influence, by hiding his own name, for example.

I, too, noticed that dichotomy of the adem and the edema ruh and its connection to WOT. Considering that plausible connection, it seems likely that the significance of the two peoples' pasts would be more than what is obvious. The singers are mentioned as a force that fights the Chandrians and rank among the other mythical groups like the sith and the amyr. Considering the adem's long history and their possession of magic, unbreakable swords, I don't think it is that far fetched that their counterparts - the edema ruh - would have a similar degree of magical history, perhaps on par with the singers. Also, I think of how Illian has been described. It is said that his music stopped wars - something that seems less hyperbolic if you consider that maybe he was more than a traveling minstrel. I'd like to think that Rothfuss hasn't just given us another version of the Wyld Stallions.

Lastly, a few thoughts on Auri.I was extremely please to read McKnuckles post concerning the connection of auri=ariel. I was convinced right away.I am also interested in the conjecture about her more supernatural role and would like to seem some more development of the good ideas i've already ready. I thought of one other point that might lend credibility to thinking that she is in a way of some significant magic: her ability to obtain food and her general cleanliness. She reminds me of Fellurian in that food just seems to come from nowhere, she stays clean despite living in a sewer, she is spritely. I think there is something of the Fay about her.
INCyr
142. Great White
Hi,

I keep the books around and time to time I read parts of them. I just found something, that I missed before.

When K get the lockless box to examine he feels that it is maddeningly familiar. The smell of the lemon and something else. When he meets the Cthaeh he describes it as the smell of... leather and lemon... I think the box might be made of the wood of the Cthaeh. Thoughts?
INCyr
143. sprite420
@maximus: Felurian mentions that the first and greatest of the Shapers, who stole the Moon and began the Creation War, is shut beyond the Doors of Stone. my guess is that the appearance of the Scrael (spider things) is the result of his (Iax?) release from his imprisonment. the Cthaeh tells Kvothe that if he sticks with the Maer, he will be led to door. the Cthaeh considers this pun extremely amusing, and assures Kvothe that he will understand it later. and the Cthaeh has a purely malicious sense of humor.

make note that this shaper is not shut beyond the "DOOR of stone". it is "DOORS:" plural. that seems to be an ongoing source of confusion in this thread.

so far, we have at least two doors: the Four-Plate Door at the University and the Lackless Door in the oldest part of the Lackless Estate, half a world away.

also, i think we have established in this thread that most if not all of the Masters at the University are Amyr. certainly Lorren and Elodin. but what of Caudicus? a trained arcanist sent from the University halfway around the world to assassinate the Maer "King" of Vint? i think it is safe to assume that the Amyr were attempting to prevent the Maer from ever marrying the Lady Lackless and gaining access to the Leoclos Box. i'm not necessarily implying that the Maer has any nefarious plans for the box, (although there is war between the king and a "pretender king" in the present timeline,) i'm suggesting that the Amyr consider it a threat to their charge.
INCyr
144. sprite420
several commenters have also speculated about the possibility that Bredon, Kvothe's mysterious tak-playing friend from Severon, may also be Denna's patron and even one of the Chandrian. and while i'm reluctant about the Chandrian theory, (because i really LIKED Bredon,) it is odd that he went off to "visit some relatives" at the exact same time that Denna disappeared from Severen for a while. the Cthaeh also mentions that Denna's patron beat her with his walking stick, which Bredon has been described as carrying, (it has a silver wolf's head on it).

Bredon makes a creepy speech about laying traps while describing the rules of tak.

more importantly, "Bredon" is also the name of a city. we have "bee beer from brewers in Bredon." could the city of Bredon be one of the seven great cities from the time of Lanre? if so, could it have been the one city that was spared when a servent of corruption had a change of heart? if so, perhaps our owlish friend is older than he looks and playing a VERY long and elegant game...
Jeremy Raiz
145. Jezdynamite
@142 Great White - is it possible for Kvoethe's chest, the Loeclos box and the tree that imprisons/protects the Cthaeh be a Roah tree? (I'm assuming the Cthaeh is not actually the tree but restricted by a tree).

I'm not certain about this, considering the Loeclos box has a deep red grain in it (supposedly unlike Roah) and Kvothe implies that a certain acid wont affect roah when talking about his chest (which to me implies his chest is made of or has some Roah in it). Despite all three types of wood smelling like citrus/lemon.

Maybe the red grain in Kvothe's chest is some sort of blood if the Roah is violently removed from a Roah tree (I'm babbling now, why don't I make up more fantasies to support my own half baked theories...hahaha).

I don't know enough about Roah to be more certain.

What do you think?
Felipe Martins
146. felipem
So, I took a looong time reading all the comments and I recommend everyone to do the same before posting, or at least CTRL+F whatever your theory is because some people can be annoying reposting theories or pretty obvious things. Anyway, I'd like to congratulate you guys for this awsome discussion, I realy love some of your theories, Bredon's true identity and Kvothe's mother being the best. But I also have some comments and questions I'd like to put on the table:

1- In the first book, when Abenthy stays at the city, Kvothe says he wouldn't see him for many years. That implies that they should meet again, which intrigues me. I disagree with @101 on what Abenthy knew, but i agree that he is a great mystery.
2- Caudicus is another puzzle for me, but @143 had an intresting idea. What if he was sent by the Amyr (probably an Amyr on the universiry) to stop the Maer's search? The problem with this theory is that when the Maer realy became a Maer he stopped the search! Wouldn't make much sense...
3- I do not think Ambrose is the king that Kvothe killed neither the Penitent king. Twelve steps to the throne is a long way to happen in 4 or 5 years, it's more likely that Kvothe will kill the Maer.
4- About Kvothe's sword... I think the name "Poet Killer" (or whatever it is) is just a reference to Kvothe's disgust for poets, not a literal thing.
5- I actualy think the Ctaeh is not THAT powerful as everyone's saying. I kinda agree with the Chronicler on this one. He might know some of the future, but he cannot control it all.
6- @109 has an intresting theory on the Chancellor's being poisoned. Someone doesnt want Kvothe to learn Yll for some reason. That happens after Kvothe "reads" Denna's hair. She could have mentioned it to someone... oh god, too many variables.
Felipe Martins
147. felipem
Oh and just a fun fact... anyone ever noticed how Hemme, being the Retorical Master always loses arguments to Kvothe? You'd expect more from him...
And does anyone else realy wants a movie of this trilogy? Seriously, I NEED a movie from this!

Finally, sorry for any spelling mistakes ^^
INCyr
148. Niomus
I did have a problem with the person being Kvothes aunt, it says natalie was her little sister yet she is of marrying age, how would that make sense
Felipe Martins
149. felipem
Actualy it never said Natalie was Meluan's little sister, it was only implied.
INCyr
150. KaitlinQ
I keep changing my mind about who Denna is, whether she is even fully human and what she knows. At times she seems fully human, bruises and all. Her bad experiences with life in general and men in particular could explain a lot. But then I think about things like...

1. She says she died for a couple minutes when she was 2 years old and has had trouble with her lungs since then. Was she somehow possessed and reanimated at that point? Is she part human and part...something else? Could the lung problems be long delayed smoke inhalation from the cities that burned so long ago? Weird idea, but can't shake it.

2. She marched through the city and toward the girl who was being brutalized like she had a GPS system in her head. Is she the person mentioned who was the first woman ever to know the unwanted touch of man? I think that was one of the people listed who wanted to try to prevent injustice, not just deal with it when they saw it (like Tehlu).

3. She appears at all the right (wrong) places at crucial points. She knows too much and too little at the same time. She is clearly invovled with an Amyr or one of the Chandrian (assuming they are different).

Thanks for your great ideas. I love how Arliden's careless-seeming ditty gives away his wife's true identity. He really was daring with his songs!
Felipe Martins
151. felipem
@150 I thought about that also, Denna is a real puzzle for me, I'm sure she's human but some things just dont make sense! How the hell did she find the girl in the alley? If she was the woman who was the first to know the unwanted touch, her song about the Chandrian would make even less sense!
Katherine Gielissen
152. limblessninja
I apologize if this theory has already been put forward. I have only read the Speculative Summaries (thus far), and very poorly.

Am I the only one that was particularly struck by the parallels with the number seven in two significant poems/songs? We know that “seven things stand before / the entrance to the Lackless door.” What if those seven things are actually the Chandrian? This thought made me go back to look at the info that Kvothe acquired from the Adem. It’s interesting to see that there are a few parallels between the two, which I tried my best to combine below:

Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door
One of them a ring unworn - Stercus is in thrall of iron
One a word that is forsworn - Grey Dalcenti never speaks.
One a time that must be right - Usnea lives in nothing but decay.
One a candle without light - Cyphus bears the blue flame.
One a son who brings the blood - Ferule chill and dark of eye.
One a door that holds the flood - Pale Alenta brings the blight.
One a thing tight-held in keeping - Alaxel bears the shadow's hame.
Then comes that which comes with sleeping - Hated. Hopeless. Sleepless. Sane.

So, let’s take this line by line…

Seven things stand before / the entrance to the Lackless door – As I alluded to earlier, I think this may actually be the Chandrian. Now the question is: Do they stand before it because they want to prevent others from entering, or do they seek to enter it themselves? Perhaps opening the door is “what is is seek, what hope to achieve.” Another thought that occurred to me is that each of the lines in the Lackless poem refers to a challenge or task that each Chandrain must accomplish to open the door (I will attempt to explain below).

One of them a ring unworn / Stercus is in the thrall of iron– We’ve seen quite a few Fe rings throughout the Kingkiller Chronicles, but the one that prompted me to relate these verses was the story of Encanis told by our beloved Trapis in NotW. On my first read of the books, I reflexively thought that Encanis = Haliax, as Trapis states that “shadows hid his face.” However, we know that the descriptions in his story (and PR’s stories in general) do not always parallel more “accurate” tales . For example, in Scarpi’s tale Tehlu is not God Himself, but rather an Aleph. We also know that sometimes one story can bleed into another. What’s interesting in Trapis’ story is that we see Encanis chained to a massive ring of Fe. Could Encanis actually = Stercus? Could he still be in the “thrall” of Fe, trapped somewhere?

One a word that is forsworn / Grey Dalcenti never speaks– The relationship seems pretty straightforward. Here, too is an example of a “task” that must be accomplished to open the theoretical door. If Dalcenti never speaks, his challenge is to find the “word that is forsworn.” Most likely something to do with naming… but unclear.

One a time that must be right / Usnea lives in decay– I paired these mostly because I couldn’t figure out where else Usnea’s (or Ferule’s and Alenta’s for that matter) verse fit. It seems that if one is waiting for “a time that must be right,” one would eventually decay. Of course, it is easy to stretch words to suits one’s needs, so this relationship should be taken with a grain of salt.

One a candle without light / Cyphus bears the blue flame– We’ve seen a lot of examples of / references to blue flames, candles, and even blue flame candles. It seems clear that Cyphus was one of the Chandrian present at the massacre of Kvothe’s family and at Tarbean. Try as I might, I could find no reference to light or even shadows in either situation, so it’s unclear if the blue flame that Cyphus generates light or not. Alternately, Cyphus’ task is to light the candle with his blue flame (seems too literal to me).

One a son who brings the blood / Ferule chill and dark of eye – Another stretch of a pairing. Though even on my cursory read, I was struck by how Cinder and Haliax had something of a father/son relationship. It also appears like Cinder is the primary “killer” in the Chandrian’s group: When Kvothe knocks over the wagon, Cinder is the first to draw his sword; Haliax later instructs Cinder to kill Kvothe. Does that mean he’s the one that “brings the blood?” Does he have to kill someone specific (Kvothe? Denna? King?) to fulfill his task to open the door? This theory goes against the one about Kvothe being the son of a Lackless (thus, “bringing the blood”), which is one I rather like and subscribe to readily.

One a door that holds the flood / Pale Alenta brings the blight- Major stretch for this one. I felt inclined to pair these two, as I always pictured the “flood” to be related to the scrael (and other demonic beings) invading the known world. This could be thought of as a “blight” upon land. But again… conjecture.

One a thing tight-held in keeping / Alaxel bears the shadow's hame– I had to look up “hame,” which is apparently a device related to a harness for drawing a wagon. This ties in nicely with other references that Haliax is “yolked in shadow.” Do me, this indicates that Haliax is bound or trapped… “tight-held in keeping.”

Then comes that which comes with sleeping / Hated. Hopeless. Sleepless. Sane.– This last line is interesting to me. It makes me wonder if what the Chandrian actually seek is their own death. How much would it suck to live cursed forever? Wouldn’t you do whatever it takes to finally rest? This brings me back to the four doors of grief that Kvothe referenced. It seems can’t open the doors of sleep, forgetting, or insanity… so why not try death?

I’d be interested to hear what additions or counters people have.
INCyr
153. AESAES
Love all these posts and having so much fun joining in!

Anyone else find Denna's story about the rock interesting, not just for how it relates to relationship with Kvothe, but because it implies that she understands stone? Does she have an uncanny ability to name things, even without the arcanist training? We haven't seen her name anything, true, but you have to understand something to name it and she displays a deep understanding of stone. Denna hides much of what she understands, so Kvothe may not be seeing her abilities clearly. (For example, she knows Yllish knots, a nearly-dead language.) Along those lines: Denna joins the fellas at the Eolian and hustles them at corners. In the same evening, she asks about magic, specifically the kind that becomes true when written down. Is it possible she already knows something about it and is trying to draw them out? The way she hustles them at corners and the way she questions them about sympathy and this unknown magic seem to be parallel.

Also about Denna: the wind is obviously very important to the story and Denna's personality seems to reflect the wind. She's hard to understand or pin down, constantly changing and everyone who tries to catch her loses her... but more telling than those more minor details is the way Kvothe calls the wind when she's suffering from something like an asthma attack. Denna, who's character is like the wind, has struggled with her lungs since she was a child. Not a coincidence, surely, but what does it mean?

I like the idea of Kvothe changing his name. That would make Elodin's reaction to the idea significant in the larger context. But I'm not sure Kvothe has done so. True, his abilities are diminished: he can't perform basic sympathy and is beaten by run-of-the-mill thugs. However, at his most essential he is Edema Ruh, a storyteller. He tells us this at the beginning of NotW and makes sure we know that's where he begins. Clearly, his storytelling abilities are not diminished. We, along with Bast and Chronicler, are enthralled. Whether Kvothe exaggerates or not is beside the point. He spins an awesome tale. So that essential part is still intact and that would doubtless be connected to his true name. Had he changed his true name, wouldn't that ability also be lost or diminished? Now why did he lose his other abilities but not this one? I can't wait to find out!
INCyr
154. TH
Hi, All.

Have a speculation which I have not seen mentioned.

Elodin is supposed to be this slightly eccentric but basically awesome guy, who is on the side of Kvothe and helpful to the latter's studies (especially of Naming).

However, it seems that Elodin fits at least two of the five signs of Alaxel (Haliax) in Shehyn's Chandrian poem. These are:-

(i) "sleepless" - Elodin is spotted by Kvothe, many nights (perhaps Elodin doesn't sleep?); and

(ii) "sane" - in TWMF, Kvothe specifically mentions noticing that Elodin's eyes are "utterly sane" (or something similar).

This is purely conjectural, of course, but it is possible that Elodin's "incident" had exposed him to being...say, possessed by Alaxel (or Haliax). One way this could have happened was that Elodin had changed his Name (but badly - after all, Naming is volatile), leading to him being locked up in the Asylum.
INCyr
155. Lackless
@154 Sorry, but I just can't buy into that one, for a few reasons.

1. The Chandrian are good at hiding their signs, but Selitos cursed Haliax specifically to always be in shadow. If Elodin were Haliax (possessed, whatever), Kvothe probably wouldn't be able to see his face, and that would be a fairly dead giveaway.

2. If that isn't enough, Elodin has a backstory. It is mentioned in NW that he entered the University at 14 and later became Chancellor. After that was his "incident," and he was then stuck in Haven. There's no time in there for him to be running around doing Chandrian stuff for Haliax.

I like the theory itself, but it doesn't seem plausible. Perhaps an encounter with Haliax or the Chandrian, but I think possessed is going too far.
INCyr
156. TH
@155

Hi, Lady Lackless,

Thanks for your thoughts! I'd mentioned the possible connection between Elodin and Haliax, because of certain things I've observed in the story (and, just itty bitty because, it's seems, to me, that it'd be just like Pat to mis-direct his readers in this fashion).

The "possession" bit is one speculative step further, of course, but doesn't detract from suggestive incidents (mainly in TWMF, I think - NotW doesn't seem to have anything which points the mind in that direction).

As an aside, I'd thought of (1) (Chandrian and their identifying signs), but it's probably not insurmountable (mainly because Kvothe's conversation with the Cthaeh seems to suggest that the Chandrian are able to hid their signs well enough - Cinder, for example.)

Anyhow, it's a long shot, I'd agree.
INCyr
157. Raszh
The possible Adem/Ruh shared history does sound very much like the Aiel/Tuatha'an relationship in Wheel of Time. Warriors, Nomads, distaste for music, distaste for violence, sexuality, colored wagons, matriarchal, "theives", etc.
INCyr
158. Chael
Just throwing something about the Adem out there. Learning about "Saicere" or Caesura ("to break, to catch, and to fly.") something stands out pretty clear. "First came Chael, who shaped me in fire for an unknown purpose. He carried me then cast me aside" this is the shaper and first holder of the sword. After this we have only the name of the second holder and a huge gap before another name appears ( according to Kvothe at least 30 names but i assume more since he says after those 30 the list became simply boring until...) "Next came Finol of the clear and shining eye, much beloved of Dulcen. She herself slew two daruna, then was killed by gremmen at the Drossen Tor."

Kvothe knows the sword is old at least two thousand years old, but if the sword was made by a shaper it precedes the fae (the race) and it precedes the creation war. It was probably held at least 5 years by each owner and thus at least 150 years before Drossen Tor.

Wich is confirmed by Shehyn. The Adem are direct the descendants of the original empire. They're the survivors of Lanre's betrayal of the 8 cities. (7 + Myr Tariniel). But wich city?

Besides that,also according to Shehyn the Lethani is even older "This is a story of years ago, before this schoool. Before the path of the sword tree. Before any Adem knew of the Lethani. This is a story of the beginning of such things." Aethe sought mastery over bow and arrow, according to Felurian the shapers thought that way. Then maybe Rethe was a Namer. The Ribbon is guided through/by the wind to Aethe's chest. But again, this was before the creation war, probably even before Iax stealing the moon when namers and shapers co-existed.

There's not really a point in all this but it is quite amusing the thought of a "race"/civilization that is direct descendant of old times and that still has sine knowledge of the old ways.
INCyr
159. sprite420
@146 felipen

thanks for the feedback! i don't think caudicus was sent to assassinate the maer just to prevent him from researching the amyr. as you said, he had long given up that search and it wouldn't really make much sense, anyway. i think that the amyr were more concerned with preventing the maer from ever marrying the lady lackless. something about that union disturbed them. my guess is that they did not want the maer to have access to the leoclos box; that somehow this would begin a chain of events that could threaten the doors of stone.

i think that the idea of caudicus (an arcanist presumably from the university) being an agent of the amyr fits nicely with all the suggestions that the masters at the university are themselves amyr.
INCyr
160. Fazzman
Is it an accepted theory that Ambrose will be the king that Kvothe kills? Also, that Denna's death will be the instigator for the killing?
INCyr
161. Audion
@160 I think Denna will be linked to the Chandrian and somehow die due to them or her patron. Ambrose will probably inherit because of what Kvothe does I'm thinking. He'll be the one who puts 50k gold on his head too. The war that's going on is probably between Ambrose and the Maer who breaks away due to something that's happening.
If not, then cool because I hate when I guess a story! But, there are a few things I'd like to point out. The name of Copper seems to be key to the story. Not even the good old Master Namer knows it. Taborlin had a sword of it. The 4 plate door is covered in it.
Lot of other cool stuff, I love how all the side stories tie together too, just a great writer. Can't wait for the 3rd book!
Steven Halter
162. stevenhalter
@160:There are a number of competing theories on who the king might be. Some that have been suggested that I recall:
Ambrose, Sim, the Maer, Bredon
INCyr
163. StochasticBird
I don't remember seeing this mentioned in the comments before, so pardon if it's been discussed previously. I was reading some other Robert Frost last night and came upon this ("A Lockless Door"):

http://www.bartleby.com/155/7.html

Neat, no?
Ashley Fox
164. A Fox
Oh good find. I love it when you stumble across something and suspect that it fueed somebodies busy subconcious, heling birh some creation you are fond of.
INCyr
165. formflow
Theories:

1. Jax in the box. I could see PR trying to pull off this pun.

2. I wonder if Kvothe let the moon escape back to the 4C world, and the Fae and collapsed. And that is why Bast is with him, because the fae cannot go home. If this is true then maybe the dark things Kvothe encounters in the dark places in the Fae are the demons (skrael?) that are in the 4C world now.

3. If the Fae is a poorly constructed house, maybe Kvothe slipped past the sentries that guard the tree by simply taking a route unknowt to them.
INCyr
166. Jasmine
is it just me or Denna appears everywhere Kvothe is? don't you find it strange, he went to investigate the wedding in Trebon, and there she is, he travels to another country to Severon, and there she is ( with her patron) he goes to Tarbean to pay some debts and there she is.... I mean how strange that is? and what is more strange, is that Kvothe doesn't find it strange, he is just happy to see her, he doesn't wonder why he finds her in the most unusual circumstances. who's with me?
INCyr
167. Nerine
@bluejo:
"AnotherAndrew, Susan: I don't think there's anywhere else where Rothfuss does that kind of dumb "winking at the audience while ripping you out of his world" thing, so I don't think he's doing it here."

Not entirely true - along with the examples that @branna pointed out, towards the end of WMF Koth attempts to open the box in his room using the command "Edro." I'm actually kind of amazed nobody's noticed the reference to Tolkien yet - think of the entrance to the Mines of Moria which Gandalf tries (unsuccessfully) to open with the command "Edro, Edro" - "open, open"...
INCyr
168. Nerine
Just a random thing I noticed...

In the frame story, when Koth recites the poem the Adem gave him about the Chandrian (the one beginning "Cyphus bears the blue flame"), Bast freaks out, telling Koth this is not a good idea and that just saying the Chandrian's names can let them find you. Koth then reassures him that speaking them only *once* won't make a difference - one would have to say them over and over again (as his father did when he was writing his epic about Lanre.)
From the above I think we can conclude the following:
(1) Whatever has happened in the time between WMF and the frame story, it has *not* involved Kvothe killing, imprisoning or incapaciting the Chandrian in any way. (Or at least not the majority of them). If they weren't still wandering around the world, Bast wouldn't freak out at the thought of them coming. (Interestingly, if the Chandrian can't avail themselves of the "door of death", then isn't Kvothe's entire quest to kill them rather self-defeating? And is this why the Cthaeh laughs at him?)
(2) It becomes increasingly obvious through WMF that Bast knows relatively little about Kvothe's backstory and what's really going on. (After all, if the two of them had sat down and had a heart-to-heart years ago, then surely the poem would have been mentioned at that point?) There's also Bast's shocked reaction to Koth's revelation about the Cthaeh:
"“There’s a lot of things I’ve never told you, Bast,” Kvothe said flippantly. “That’s why you find the sordid details of my life so enthralling.”...
Bast leaned forward, his face livid as he stabbed a finger at Kvothe. “I don’t care what other shit you spin into gold here! But you don’t lie about this, Reshi! Not to me!”...
“That’s just it!” Bast burst out, throwing his arms wide, his voice high and hysterical. “I think I finally understand what the matter is!”
Bast laughed then, but it was loud and strained, and choked off into something that sounded like a sob."
(Obviously Koth isn't good at having heart-to-heart conversations with *anyone*...it's not just Denna. If he's right and this story is a tragedy, I think this must be his tragic flaw...) Perhaps this whole device of telling his story to the Chronicler is merely a roundabout way of telling it to Bast - who seems to hope that he'll be able to bring back the "good old days" and the old Kvothe he used to know? Letting him know that this is utterly impossible?

(Whoa, weird...my captcha for this comment just gave me "iron" as one of the two words! A bit freaky...)
INCyr
169. Nerine
Whoops...in the last two comments of course I mean "Kote" instead of "Koth." I keep forgetting which two letters get dropped out... :D

Another thing I really have to wonder: what exactly is Cinder doing running around leading a group of bandits in the middle of a forest? Sure, leading bandits seems like a vaguely malevolent sort of thing to do, but if his intention is to wreak large-scale havoc on the world, an isolated bandit camp in the middle of a forest isn't exactly the best place. (Also if he's trying to stay out of the way of the Amyr, isn't posing as a leader of lawless thieves and killers a bad way to do that?) It also seems rather...mundane for a Chandrian.

For that matter, the Chandrian have been alive for over 5000 years and yet they seem to pop up very little. They also seem to cause very little damage for beings with apparently supernatural powers, and mostly it's only when someone speaks their name (as they don't want to be talked about.) It appears they're far more interested in staying hidden than harming the world - so maybe Kvothe is stirring up needless trouble for himself and others by trying to track them down at all?
INCyr
170. BooM
Excellent thread indeed ..
Auri said to Kovthe multiple times "you are safe here" or "i will protect you" .. Also, when Kovthe meets Auri when his blood may have been tracked, Auri shows no surprise. She certainly gets terribly upset over mention of Amyr/Chandrian. There's certainly more to her than some cracked arcainist .

Btw, does PR reads this thread? He may be laughing his hat(wizard type pointy one) off seeing so many therories ...

I would love to see a movie of this trilogy .... :)

When is the third novel coming out ?
INCyr
171. Aaron Murray
I can't help but wonder if perhaps the chest in kvothe's room contains his name and by extension his power he says "names are very important to him"
sabrina brandon
172. rn05
Hey, has anybody else noticed that Kvothe had never heard of the game Tac? He was well travelled and a college kid to boot. He and Simmon and the gang played games, but he didn't know tac. Apparently, nobody else at Maer's court knew the game either, because Breden left the board in Kvothes' rooms. My point is that Felurian already knew how to play tac, and tac is a game that is only worth winning if it is beautiful. Anybody?
INCyr
173. kcas
Awesome thread, missed the noble connection. Thanks for that one!

What has been troubling my mind is the line that someone else has already mentioned.

He had to beat a demon to get to his hearts desire, but kill an angel to keep it.

This feels to be in line with some theories that Denna is in fact training to do the opposite from wat Kvothe is trying to do.

Go with me here:

He has to defeat Master Ash in order to get his hearts desire, this is either related to the box or the stone doors. To keep this he has to kill an angel ---> feeling that denna is more then human, and the only person that could cause him so much pain he had to kill her.

I feel that Denna has to be dead because of the way K refers to her. in TNoW he refers to her in the past tense when he describes her:

"How can i say i understood her, i never really knew" her implying that she is dead and that she was a mystery ---> refering to the training she was recieving.

What would break him more then needing to kill Denna? What would cause him to change his name other then to escape from his own deeds?

Another thing that occured to me, might be that MR Ash is 2nd or 3rd in line for the throne and that killing him gave him the name kingkiller. This unfotunatly astranges Denna completely because of the Master-Student relationship.

Curious to get your thoughts.
INCyr
174. Audion
Few more things I was thinking about. Some odd things with our Master Namer. First, he obviously knew Kvothe's father. That was brought up before, but I was thinking why? Did he know him as the Bard that stole away the Lacklass heir? Or did he know him as the Bard in charge of the troupe that was decimated by the Chandrian?

Another odd thing with him, during one of Kvothe's entrance exames he asked how many spades are left if 8 have already been played. By itself a normal crazy question of his, but Manet asked Kvothe the same thing when he wasn't payin attention at cards the day before. Odd he asked the exact same question.

So the going out on a limb crazy theory I thought of is this. Since he's a namer, can he call himself something and everyone else would see him as such? Could he call himself Manet and Poof.. he's another person? I don't really think that's the case, and he is probably getting his info from somewhere else.. but still, be a fun idea.
INCyr
175. thorros
There may be a connection between the Story of Encanis and Tehlu, and that of Lanre. Both pretty central history stories in The Name of The Wind.

- Encanis destroys 7 major Cities, Lanre destroys 7 Major Cities
- Encanis' faces is shrouded in shadow, Lanre/ Haliax is shrouded in shadow
- Wherever Encanis goes, death/ destruction follows, similar with the Chandrian.
- Tehlu is represented as God, and Kvothe is rumoured to have killed an angel, which are God's servants, may have some link as he finds more info about the Chandrian in The Doors of Stone.

Obviously things in both stories don't line up. But just wondering if the stories are connected in some way, as in Encanis is Haliax
INCyr
176. JMan466
I'm not the kind of person that usually reads a story for guessing what might come in the next book. Typically I read a story, enjoy it and move on. This story was different. I read the two books and really loved them (actually - I listened to the second book the first time through - it is a phenomenally well read audio book IMO). I enjoyed them so much that I read them both again - just for the sheer fun of it. I love how Patrick Rothfuss incorporates certain types of language - like colloquialisms - into his stories, and so I went to re-visit the world. I kept obsessing over certain details though, like Kvothe's meeting with the Cthaeh, or Shaeyn's story of the Seven ... so I read them a third time (all in a year!) because third time pays for all!

It was not until I was two thirds done with TWMF that I found this thread - and what a find! I know a lot of people that have read the books, but not many that have been interested in speculating about them - as I mentioned, that's not what I normally do ... I guess neither do my friends. What drew me to this thread was that I was searching to see if anyone had noticed something about Denna that I did (on both my second and third read through).

I had certainly never made this connection between Natalia Lackless and Laurian - Kvothe's mother - but it sure seems likely based on the above. And that might fit in with what I noticed ... When Kvothe first meets Meluan Lackless, I immediately thought that he had somehow found Denna's secret identity. PR describes the two in very similar terms - very red lips without needing paint, very strong neck lines, luxurious black hair ... it just jumped out to me as "is this Denna"? Of course, soon enough we realize it is not - but he mentions that she keeps tickling a memory; he even mentions Imre and the Eolian (both very Denna centric locations). When Kvothe reads the "story" about Netalia Lackless I thought for sure it would be Denna.

But now I don't think so - I think Laurian is indeed Netalia. But I also think that Denna is Netalia's daughter and Kvothe's sister (half sister possibly). I think that Denna's story of the stone is actually in truth, partially motivated by her being orphaned as a child. The boy who discards her so that she "knows the sense of motion" may be none other than Arliden. Finding all of this out will help lead Kvothe to a very dark place and I suspect even darker deeds.

I love some of the thoughts here and speculations. I agree with the thought that Kvothe has NOT killed the Chandrian - they seem to "alive" in the frame of the current story to be dead. I suspect that perhaps Kvothe wants to kill them and the Amyr will want to keep them alive - they are the ones that so cursed them after all (or at least Lanre/Haliax). I believe that this conflict will put Denna and Kvothe even further at odds.

Regardless, I am very much looking forward to the conclusion of Day 3 and any stories that lead after that!
INCyr
177. MarblesLost
Long post... AHOY!

Amazing thread! I love this discussion!

I'm hoping that not everything that I write here has been said already. I know that I pulled from a lot of other ideas brought up on this thread. This is more of a train of thought that I had while wanting to contribute to these lovely posts. I am unable to make utterly concrete points, but I hope that they are understandable in how I reached them. I want to be vicously shot down as much as I want someone to say "oh hey interesting idea, doesn't sound too off the mark".

Thanks Alekhia! After hearing the connection between Arliden's "Not tally a lot less" song, I immediately wanted to think that Kvothe would end up as king somehow. Despite being a bastard, he still would have the royal blood of his mother. I wanted to think of this as some sort of resolution in book three. A happy ending of sorts that would unravel along with the frame story, after the shit that hits the fan in the present time settles. However, I don't think this is entirely neccesary and is more wishful thinking because I've grown to love Kvothe. Aside from this tidbit I have some questions and even more speculation.

Why didn't Cinder kill Kvothe in the forest?

The angels that Marten was naming may have been enough for him to be scared off. I see irony in Kvothe telling him to shut up because "He can hear you!!". Cinder directed his troops to shoot Kvothe and his companions while he used the sound of this praying voice to pinpoint their location. Maybe to silence Marten before his prayers were heard by other beings? This would explain why he would disappear so quickly after his team was nuked.

I noticed that this is the second time (that we know of) that Kvothe has been spared by Cinder. Once at the command of Haliax and once for an unknown reason. I think Cinder may have been able to walk over and curb stomp Kvothe right after he passes out from calling down the lightning on the camp and still have time to do his disappearing act before threat came to him. I think he may not have taken advantage of this because the Chandrian (or specifically Cinder) knew that he would be led to the Cthaeh and cause more destruction to the world, so killing him would be less effective than letting the plague ship into harbor.

A synonym for Cinder is Ash, and Breadon's colors are "ash grey and a dark charcoal. His hair and beard were pure white" (387 WMF) Bredon helps Kvothe with his court etiquette and is a player of "a beautiful game" (he far surpasses Kvothe's intense strategic skills)

Bredon helping Kvothe through the court would eventually lead him into the Eld, where he would call down fire and lighting like Taborlin, sight Cinder, and eventually be led to the Cthaeh. Bredon, being so exceptional at his skill of playing the beautiful game (if we agree that Bredon is playing a much bigger game) ,would have know of the outcomes that would occur from his helpful hints told to Kvothe.

Bredon keeps his identity a mystery to Kvothe. "you must assume I am without either title or rank. That puts us on a curious footing: you unannounced to the court, and myself unannounced to you. As such, it would be fitting for you to send me a silver ring" (391 WMF)
I don't recall anyone in the court mentioning Bredon. "What will people say?"-Kvothe... nothing! I think this may be more of a personal message to Kvothe that they are equals of some sort. This shows him in more of a positive light and contradicts the idea that he wants to preserve Kvothe as the plagued ship.

The mention of the Amry on the vase being the most terrifying of all the figures makes sense to me. There have been a few times where Kvothe has blood running down his hand and is physically similar to the depictions of the Amry. Also Kvothe has been working for the greater good by thrwarting Ambrose, killing bandits, restoring some honor to the Edema, blah blah blah. He's a "hero".

I imagine the Amyr on the vase is the hero that "remembered the lethani" and did not fall with Myr Tiriniel. We know the Amyr go to unorthodox means for the greater good (due to some knowledge we do not know how they come by). It would make sense to me that to avenge the fallen cities or to defeat the chandrian this Amyr would "burn down the entire world" to seek this end. A world starting anew without such (I hate to say it) evil would be better than life continuing with such corruption present. Kvothe states that his definite goal is to kill the Chandrian any way he can. This would lead to him having to destroy a few flowers and trees to kill the worst weeds.

Last tidbit...

Kvothe witnesses the stories being told about his deeds being altered over a short amount of time and any amount of distance. He says the bones of the stories are still in tact. (though IMO, the bones arent worth much when the public puts more value in the fabulous details they create) This is all done through oration, not records and documents. Similarly, while seldom spoken, the stories of the Chandrian are communicated through oration. I don't find it hard to believe that the motives of the Amyr and Chandrian may be partially or completely confused by just about everyone in the modern world. This would set us up for some understandable, yet incredible, surprises in Day Three!

So... those are some of the thoughts floating around my waking mind. (I could talk more but its all nonsense until we get to read the next book!)
INCyr
178. Birnir
what a wonderful discussion .. i simply love this post, and comments.

now i think i might have one point to add, i am almost certain that Kote is Kvothe, he has "changed" his name and lost all his powers and why you ask, well right before Dennas and Kvothe´s big argument in WMF (about the Lanre song.) Denna makes Kvothe promise not to go after her patron Mr. Ash. Kvothe obliges and promises on his name and power not to go snooping around. now with all the implications of Mr. Ash quite possibly being one of the Chandrian, i think inadvertently Kvothe goes hunting for Mr. Ash and brakes his promise to Denna, that will then somehow end up with him packing away his name and power and leaving her.

oh .. how i cant wait for the next book .. and would love a trilogy more :D
James Hines
179. MarblesLost
:D I was thinking about Kvoth's "broken tree" name earlier today. I remembered about the talk he had with Penthe about "Anger" and how it is the "wanting of life" and "A stone does not have much compared to a budding tree. It is the same with people" If "Anger" is the motivation to strongly move forward in life, Kvothe being a broken tree would make sense as part of his identity as Kote. He does /can not want to extend toward the sun anymore because he is a broken tree. Kote is part of the name "KvOThE". spammalicious
INCyr
180. noctanter
From Alekhia: "This namer also had skills Iax did not have, being able to open the knot on the tinker’s pack where Iax failed."

Ch. 141, WMF: Kvothe, on his return journey from Vintas, "They tried to teach me sailor’s knots, but I didn’t have a knack for it, though I proved to be a dab hand at untying them."

Also from Alekhia: 2) In NotW, there is an early description of the university which states: “The University itself consisted of about fifteen buildings that bore little resemblance to each other. Mews had a circular central hub with eight wings radiating in each direction so it looked like a compass rose. Hollows was simple and square, with stained glass windows showing Teccam in a classic pose: standing barefoot in the mouth of his cave, speaking to a group of students.”
I think both the reference to the cave, and the fact that he is barefoot strongly suggest that he may be the old man in Hespe’s story of Jax."

Ch. 147, WMF: Trapis was still there, barefoot and wearing the same tattered robe, tending to his hopeless children in the cool dark below the city streets.

Are trapi sand Teecam the same persone? Are they of the same Order (Amyr?) that founded the University?
INCyr
181. Galqa
I just wanted to share something I noticed - make of it what you will:

In NotW the skin dancer says it is looking for something, later droping the word "rhintae". Now guess what the chandrian were called in Shehyn's story... yup. rhintae.
Lauren W
182. laurene135
I find it interesting that both the Amyr and the Chandrian erase themselves from history. Would it be much of a stretch to guess that the Amyr are willing to kill to keep themselves quiet? This could be what happened to Denna's family.
INCyr
183. Gabriel...
Kaysera-Poeta killer

ambrose is poeta

other thing, in 1 chapter em TNW and WMF Denna cites your master names Gris, gris is chandrian group...


sorry for horrible english...
Felipe Martins
184. felipem
That's actualy only in the portuguese version, Gabriel. In english Gris (chandrian) = Cinder and Gris/Freixo = Ash
INCyr
185. jh89
Hey guys,

Just re-read WMF last night and wanted to address some things that i thought warranted attention.

Lorren, with his access to books would be the perfect cover for a member of the Amyr, to censor all related books. Also when in NotW the giller in 'aquisitions' come in I immediately thought he was censoring books found around the world containing stories of the Amyr.

Also i found it strange that Lorren seemed to know Kvothe's fathers name, which seems to suggest he either knows kvothe is related to lackless or knows that he had a run in with the chandrian, with his amyr contact.

Just my two cents, like to hear others thoughts.....
Lauren W
186. laurene135
@jh89
Those are some excellent points. I haven't reread WMF yet, so I completely forgot he knew Kvothe's father's name! That is very suspicious.
Your point about Lorren being able to censor the books about the Amyr is great.
It may also be why Kvothe was banned they way he was. I believe Lorren was truly upset about the candle, but I bet part of him baning Kvothe was to keep him from digging around and find information about the Amyr that he hasnt been able to censor yet (such as in some of the many books lost in the cataloging battles).
INCyr
187. tulkas
Please forgive me if i have mistakes in my writing, i`ve studied english when i was a kid, but it`s been a long time since then.
Im seriously intrigued in some characters, Lorren, the Lackless aunt (i think she`s going to be a problem), and of course in Bast, i feel that his character is getting stronger line by line. The beautiful thing about this book is that is full of enigmas.
INCyr
188. Barman WesleyWaystoneInn
Denna is a mystery. She asks Kvothe and his friends in the Eolian to teach her magic. She asks if someone can read magic words in a foreign language and be made to do whatever the words say to do. Kvothe and co. dismiss this based on morality reasons, but never say it is impossible. Afterall, sygldry is writing imbued with magic, is it not? Later when Denna and Kvothe fight about Dennas Lanre song, she says, "I am no farm girl. I know secrets they don't teach at your precious University."
I think this is all tied to her patron, Master Ash, aka Bredon. Using the Superman/Clark Kent logic that Bredon is always away when Denna is missing while she and Kvothe are spending time in Severen. It is rumored that Bredon performs pagan rituals on his estate north of Severen. There is so much detail in the rumor that it must be true. A Chandrian posing as a bandit leader also happens to be living eighty miles north of Severen. Coincidence?? Denna says her patron believes he has family ties to Lanre. However, Lanre existed before there were humans and only the Fae existed. How does Master Ash trace his famliy tree to a Fae legend from a time before the moon was stolen, unless he is fae. I believe Bredon is a Chandrian posing (with a glamor) as a nobel at court. I believe he took Denna to the farm in Trebon where he summoned the other Chandrian through the greystones, which are portals between fae and human lands. How Denna admits her patron resides at the Maer's court. How could he, an old rich man, move easily between Severen and Trebon/Imre with the bandits on the road. Remember the difficutly Kvothe had getting to Severen? This also explains how Kvothe was distracted with the fire at the University (saving Fela) on the same afternoon Denna met her patron while waiting for Kvothe. The brand new metal container holding the toxic liquid somehow leaked starting the fire. Hmmm. I'm suspicious of the odds all of this could come together. Think about it...if Kvothe and Denna meet that day, Master Ash may have never met Denna.
I believe Severen was once Myr Tiriniel of old. A city built on a sheer cliff where you can see enemies approaching for miles. The Lackless family has been here forever (Of which our hero Kvothe is one of since his mother was Nataly Lackless) and certainly has magical items such as the box and the door at their estate. I believe the Lackless line goes all the way back to the inception of the Amyr and are heavily involved, if not among the upper ranks of their organization. Cthea says the Maer is closer to the Amyr than he knows. I think its because he marries a Lackless.
Oh, Cthea. He once spoke to Lanre and gave him the knowelege to speak the names of things to the point where he was as powerful as Selitos and Iax. Yet, things didn't work out like Lanre was led to believe they would from Cthea. This is why he is crazy sounding and cannot believe he has caused all of the wrongs that he has when talking to Selitos before Selitos curses him and wreaths Lanre in shadow, thereby transforming him into Haliax. I believe the Chandrian are the watches of the Cthea in the Fae that are somehow not present when Kvothe stumbles upon the Cthea. Even Felurian was surpirsed by this, but hid it from Kvothe.
Probable Amyr: Skarpi, Lorren, Kilvin, Elxa Dal, Elodin, Dagon the Maer's top guar, the soldier who brings books to Lorren at the university.
The university...is a front for the training ground of the Amyr. Once above Relar, students are recruited by the masters. Auri is a recruit in training, as is the patient Kvothe and Elodin visit in the haven. About the only time Elodin was serious was when scolding the nurse at the haven for locking the door to the man's room. Just consider the expense of a place like the haven. Gigantic building housing many "disturbed" ex-students or faculty. Yet, we never hear of physikers (doctors) at the haven. Who pays for the patients internment? And nobody cries foul when their son or daughter is mentally damaged while attending University??
Just some of my thoughts...
INCyr
189. Marian, the son of Marian
wonderful...just to get back to the story through all of you...I read the WMF twice, the second time i read/translated it to my friend, who doesn´t speak english.

Nevertheless, I was so thrilled by the story itself, its language and depth of some conversations, that I totally forgot about thinking deeper and many of your comments on the book opened my eyes...
though many comments lack some ratio, others are wery reasonable...
Patrick´s got a nice trap for us and I believe he is smiling, contented with our interess and guesses of possible plots...
I won´t say much, though I like the thought, that Auri is princess Ariel, as for her manners by the table - always when eating, just see, that she acts as a noble ... she may be a fugitive and may be hiding, but her manners are something she can´t change - it is the same, when Kvothe tries to bring her clothes and shoes, that are already worn...who else, if not a princess would be choosy, when in need?

someone wrote a comment about her, dissapearing in the Fae...it´s true, that she can take care of her, and she must be good in it...how come, she has found the place of Kvothe´s tiny room the only time he needed her, lost and crying? Far from her Underthing, wandering?

and did someone think about the names of the books? aren´t they significant in a way too?
first - Name of the wind, what shows us, what direction will the story lead..to learn something unique and gain power...
Though with power comes not always wisdom, as every teacher, who Kvothe ever had, scorned him, that he is too inteligent and sometimes too reckless...
Athough Kvothe travels a lot and learns a lot in this second book, he doesn´t learn how to fear certain things (even if warned of them) and
this dangerous attitude brings him in Wise man´s fear to - as I am sure to the tragic end - to the Doors of stone...
INCyr
190. sprite420
Someone just returned my copy of TWMF, so of course I had to read it again.

This time I noticed something about odd Auri and Elodin. In all of my previous readings, i loved Elodin. But this time I noticed that not only did Auri and Elodin both know each other already, but they BOTH TRADED INSULTS. Kvothe notices a few subtle signs of Auri's displeasure during dinner, and Elodin gave Auri the gift of a single cinnas fruit, which we learn much later (and in a different arc,) is a grave insult in some culture or another. This kind of cordial hostility suggests that they have been enemies for a LONG time.

I think Auri is the angel Kvothe has to kill to get what he wants. Auri probably even knows this but she still has a genuine relationship with Kvothe and loves him, like angels do. At his darkest moment, when Kvothe is sobbing his heart out, Auri breaks into his room to comfort him. Doesn't that seem a bit out of character for a hardcore agoraphobe who lives several buildings away and who also seems to take propriety somewhat seriously? We just have Auri popping by on a social call? She had to have come all that way because she knew that he would be hurting very badly and needing comfort. Which means that she probably knows their destinies and everything the Ctheh fortold, including killing the Angel .

All of this seems to suggest that Elodin may have let something in when he cracked, which I'm pretty sure I've seen mentioned before on this tread.
Felipe Martins
191. felipem
@188
Actualy there's not much detail on the rumor of Bredon's pagan rituals, at least we never saw any detail, K doesn't realy tell us the entire thing.
I also can't remember D saying her patron's family ties to Lanre's, would you point out that reference please? (I'm not doubting it, just wanna double check)
Also, I think you misunderstood something: the people from the creation war were not Fae (nor human), but Ruach (or something like that), a pre-human race. Fae are probably the result of shaping, while humans are Ruach's sub-race.

Indeed, every time we see the Chandrian (or just Cinder), they're close to a waystone: After K found his troup dead, he runs to a nearby waystone and stays there; Near the wedding, K and D find a waystone where they first meet the Dracus; By the bandit camp, where K uses the waystone to go into the Fae. However, I'm not convinced of Bredon/Ash being a Chandrian, and even if he is, I doubt it'd be Cinder. K spends much time with him and never recognizes it. IMO, Bredon is an Amyr.
Now about the evening that D met her patron, I'm not into such a conspiratory theory as you xD. D meets lots of men, and K never knows how they met her, she's constantly moving. If Ash wanted so bad to get in touch with her, sabotaging the Fishery would be an overkill, he could just meet her anywhere else, whenever K was not around.

We're also not sure where Lanre's naming power came from, we never heard of the CTH giving people power, he's an evil oracle and as far as we know that's all. Lanre seemed pretty sure of what he was doing: he wanted destruction, he wanted to end it all. And he is the one to call himself Haliax, not Selitos. The curse made him immortal and shadow-hamed, but he was already Haliax.
The watchers of the CTH in Fae are the Sithe, and the only thing we know about the Sithe is that the chandrian fears them (NotW, chapter 16).


@190
Nice catch, but I'm afraid I'll once again ask for a reference of when we learn giving a single cinnas fruit is an insult. If you're right it gives that scene a whole new interpretation!
INCyr
192. Marian, the son of Marian
thanks for a great answer...:)

to get a good answer we must first ask the right question, right? like this one with Auri...
I think, that you have a good theory here, sprite420, regarding Auri as an angel/as The Angel...as it would explain the "agoraphobe" and the miracuolous cleanliness and her ability to take care of herself..
plus, she always, always, when she can, makes sure to tell Kvothe, that he will be safe when close to her.. I noticed, that she assures him this way several times.

Pity, I don´t have the NotW with me...I just remember, that the only other person - except Elodin a Kvothe o.c. - was Mola, when attempting to help the girl...I guess because of an injury, Kvothe took her with him to look at Auri...
do you know, how Auri reacted or how Mola reacted by her presence? could you take a look at it?

and I have another question for those, who like to think...someone -(I beg your pardon, for not knowing who, but it is a huge amount of posts here and I ´ve got no time to look once again:) mentioned, that the last sentence in the second book is telling us, that Kvothe/Kote - I quote:
"There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his hands and slowly took one single perfect step."

I guess, here is the straight connection to Adem, as he always admired the perfection of their movements, of Shehyn and Penthe, the perfection of a movement, that is required, not more.
So he took one perfect step. So what?
My question is, what direction did he make this one step? where? towards what?

does anyone have an idea? Has it a connection to the Greystone, that could be the Door of Stone? that leads to another worlds/world?

or is it possible, that he just took one perfect step, that suggests, that something is going to change with Kote/Kvothe?

I am very eager to find out...
Felipe Martins
193. felipem
@192
I remember that part, I got the book with me and will check it in a few minutes.
About the perfect step, the general consent is that it was K practicing the Ketan. This indicates that he didn't lose his physical training, and if so, lost on purpose to the soldiers.
Felipe Martins
194. felipem
Arhgh, my Kindle battery just died, precisely when I found the chapter. If anyone else has access to it, it's on chapter 68, just after the big fire in the Fishery, and K is worries that the smoke might have hurt Auri.
INCyr
195. Marian, the son of Marian
Well, you did a good job there, excited just like me... let´s hope your battery is soon reloaded...

to sprite420:
thinking about the cinnas and the hostility between Elodin and Auri...
it could be a nice theory, but unless there is no proof...I mean, even though in some culture would be an insult when becoming a gift of a single cinnas fruit, it doesn´t mean, that both Auri and Elodin know about it or care about it... (with Elodin we can´t be sure, as he is globetrotter)
plus, I think, that Auri is just nervous about having him as a guest...
Elodin said, that he was trying to get near to her for years...why would anyone do that, if he would have negative feelings toward her?
and the main thing is - since he never dined with her before, how would he be able to expect, that will be given chance to get to her so close and even be invited to dinner? I guess, he had nothing but a single cinnas fruit in his pocket and so he gave all he had..
that is my point of view...
INCyr
196. Barman WesleyWaystoneInn
to felipem...
thanks for challenging me. I've been dying to bounce these ideas off of someone since none of my friends have read the series.

Bredon's pagan rituals(WMF Ch 74 Rumors).
Patron's family ties (MNF Ch73 Blood and Ink): ..."I found it...when I was doing genealogical research for my patron...He fancies himself a bit of a historian...He wouldn't be the first to ingratiate himself by shining a light on someone's long-lost heroic ancestor."

You've made me reconsider my theory felipen. This last part is D telling K how she came upon the bones for her song. She says she believes her patron is having this song written for the Maer, since he (master ash) is part of the court nobility. That would imply that master ash believes the Maer is the Lanre decendent, no? And if that is true, then perhaps it follows then the you are correct and Bredon is Amyr.
Bredon is interesting. He has no title that we are aware of and no family name we are aware of. His is within reach of, at least, the second most powerful man in Vintas. He likes to play a beautiful game, so almost by definition then, he must have an agenda.
So, I've recently begun to ponder Caudicus and his motivation. What would he gain by assasinating the Maer? In fact, he already has cemented himself the best lifestyle one could possibly want among all of the people within the Maer's court. We know Caudicus spent over 10 years in the employ of the Maer. Yet, only within a semi-recent period was the Maer ill. Perhaps Bredon convinced Caudicus to assasinate the Maer for "the greater good". If the Maer is somehow linked to Lanre, does this make him a bad person? I always thought of the Maer indifferent, morally speaking, but I'm beginning to reconsider. We already know K questions the Maer's motive for sending him to take care of the "bandits" in the eld. What if he knew of something more sinister out there, afterall. And K was able to accidentally thwart the will of the Amyr, if this is true. Then perhaps the Maer becomes king and is subsequently killed by K to wrap up the story? Highly speculative, but a worth theory, anyway.

Some things I uncovered:The name of D's song: The Song of Seven Sorrows. The number seven is found all over this story. Significance, if any??
Except the pottery the girl found in Trebon. There were eight. I believe this was the doom of Selitos upon Lanre and his 6 followers (NoTW Ch 26 Lanre Turned)
Lanre's powers increase: (NoTW Ch26 Lanre Turned) Skarpi's story..."Selitos, his eyes unveiled, looked at his friend. he was how Lanre nearly mad with greif, had sought the power to bring Lyra back to life again. Out of love for Lyra, Lanre had sought knowledge where knowledge is better left alone, and gained it at a terrible price." Prior to this, Selitos knew there were only 3 people in the whole world who had his own skill in names: Aleph (who is Lord-Ch 28), Iax and Lyra.(same chapter27). I'm not saying Cthea gave/imparted powers upon Lanre, but told him where to get them. Skarpi's story is rife with information. Such as Lanre cannot be killed. Even Selitos admits he cannot be killed for good. Lanre will always return...that is until the Arueh (I'm sure I've got the name wrong) fall from the sky. Haliax wants to die, more than anything.
Denna (WMF Ch 73 Blood and Ink)"..."A patron can offer more than a name and money...I'm fine without the shelter of a title, and honestly, I'd be irritated if some man wanted to dress me in his colors. He knows things that I need to know." Here again, I'm reminded of when D asks the guys at the Eolian an explanation of how magic works and whether or not someone can be made to do something by reading magic words etched in stone. What could he possibly know that she wants so badly? K offers her a better patron in the form of the Maer, but she refuses it, and is actually hostile towards K about it. So clearly, she is not in search of wealth or entitlement. I believe this passage cements her motivations as "other than financial/quality of life", which is what is implied by her constant restlessness and flighty behavior.
One last thing.. Bast I belive to be the son of K and Felurian. I believe Reshi means Daddy (or something like that). I say this in large part because during and Interlude chapter in WMF, the mayor comes to the Waystone Inn to enlist the services Chronicler. Kote says something to the effect of, "...the boy's always acting crazy". But he definitely uses the word "boy". And, given that we know Bast is of the Fae, unless K has an affair with a second faerie, Felurian is Mom. Perhaps she sent Bast to help Kote resurrect Kvothe.
Ashley Fox
197. A Fox
Evil grin. Gotta say I disagree with a lot of that! ;)

You guys are exploring a lot of ideas that I also looked at when I came up with my Auri is Fae (btw the cinnas fruit being an insult is from one of the groups of Fae, B-something, mentioned as a part of Felurians stories of Fae) & Bredon is in alliance with Fae (or party therein) ideas.

Though I do think you have a good point re D & the depiction on the vase.

1. D's song. The geneological research may very well just be a cover for MA's interest in the creation of faen/chandrian etc. The ancestor angle may be fabricated, even so it is D's supposition that he is researching someones' ancestor. This doesnt necessarily mean his, or the maers. And it doesnt necessarily mean that Lanre is the ansestor.

2. Bredon is likey to be is family name given Bredon Beer. To have a commodity that well known it is likely to use a family name not an individuals first name. It is also heavily imlied that he holds a high title, we are just not told what.

3. Caudicus. The maer actually says that he has suffered his 'malardy' on and off for years. Caudicus slowly poisenng him-weakening him. If he died suddenly it would lead to suspicion, and possibly investigation. IMO it is more likely that he was hired by the Jakiss family. He says that he knows them fairly well, and was recently visiting them before hs latest bout of poisening the maer. Also Bredon seems to be very aware of whats going on at court, in keeping with a beautiful game, inc anicipating your oponants moves and setting your own up accordingly. I believe that he knew exactly why the Maer wanted K, to woo Meluan, and wanted him to succeed. And that he also anticipated K (arcarnum trained) to pick up on Caudicus' plot and wanted him to foil it. Not becuase he has a great love for the Maer, or even that he doesnt want the Jakiss plot to succeed, but becuase getting Meluan (and the Lackless Box) to the Maers court is important to him. He never tried to stop K, or put him off the scent in any of their convos-even giving him advice to ensure his success at court, and within his own scheming. All the time playing tak, telling K how he loves a beautiful game and using K as a game peice.

4. I find it curious how you find the Maer to be indiffernt, and how little discussion we have had on his morality. During my last reread it struck me what a nasty little man he is! He seems charming, and is illness breeds sympathy, as does is seeming romantic ineptitude. But what if we scratch beneath the surface? The iron gibbet is the big bloody, swining clue. Thats not mere justice, thats calculated cruelty. His convo on inherent and granted power and subsequent use and discarding of K. Is view of Meluan and simply a suitable womb. The iron use of his power. The fact that he still bleeds the common folk a second time even though he knows K will be returning the gold. His casual use of torture, and his choice in general. There are afew other little disturbing things that he says. (Also some of the reason I believe he is the penitant king)

5. Bast as K and Feluriansson has been discussed before, some beliveig as you do. I do not. Reshi is more akin to teacher/guru than 'daddy'. It also seems to be a teacher who not only teaches, but enacts a change that they teach. K obviously attempts to fulfill some of the more common teaching aspects with Bast, Cellum Tincture, but seems to view the title with some exasperated humour. Whilst Bast obviously idolises him to some extent, and is desperate to get his Reshi back. IMO in D3 K goes back to Faen (pulled back on the dark of the moon?) and does something radical in the courts there). Also Bast says his da his some guy called Rammen. Curiously the Twilight part of Faen is also in his title, so perhaps he and Felurian do share some sort of link.

Oh this last bit is a bit gripey, but an above poster has touched upon a pet peeve. Angels. This is not a christian text. Auris supposed angelicness is described in a very modern, very christian manner. And lets face it, that modern view doesnt even fit with the bible, and certainly doesnt fit with this text. Now of course the theory that Auri is an angel/singer is possible, but it must be within narrative context.

Im still leaning toward Fae, or half fae. Also, her clothes. When K visits the Rookery that mad fella talks as if names are screaming at him. Like is sleeping mind has been ripped open and he has no filters (except madness and what not) from all that info. IMO Auri is similar ( Adeep Knower?), though strong enough to cope better. Imagine having clothes worn by others, all those sequences of names rubbing on yur skin constantly. ick

Oh I do rabbit on, dont I? Well you did encourage interaction!
INCyr
198. Barman WesleyWaystoneInn
Last post, I promise!
I forgot about 2 things..
I found a reference to the doors of stone, again in Skarpi's story (NoTW Ch26) . Skarpi tells how Lanre was the hero of the Battle of Drossen when he, alone, faced a beast covered in black scales. He goes on to say that after the battle was finished the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone.
Also, I never noticed before, but at the end of NoTW Ch28 Tehlu's Watchful Eye, the justice arm of the Tehlin church arrests Skarpi. "...Skarpi seemed to address the air in front of him. 'You should run Kvothe'..."I looked back to previous chapters and cannot find a time when Kvothe tells Skarpi his name. They speak and K feels like Skarpi is "reading him like a book" but that's all I find.
Thoughts??
Steven Halter
199. stevenhalter
Barman@198:Yep, we talk about that in the reread. The general theory is that Skarpi is a namer--that's how he knows "Kvothe". Also, it is after this that Kvothe recovers to "himself". We think that Skarpi does something to remove some ill effects from the Chandrian from Kvothe.
Felipe Martins
200. felipem
I must say, I'm a bit disapointed... A Fox got here before me and I completly agree with her points. And it was so much fun disagreeing with her on the other topic xD... Well, anyway, Kindle battery is full again, so Mola and Auri encounter:
As expected, Auri gets suspicious when she notices Mola, but relaxes after K tells her she's nice. After that Auri tells K she brought a feather to give him, but since he's late he gets a coin instead (Tanborlin reference), one that K never seen. Only after a lot of talk between them Mola aproaches, with Auri's consent. Auri compliments Mola "Hello, you have sunny hair like me" then offers her an apple. Mola accepts it with a "blank expression". Auri then asks K to play a song and tells Mola to stay and listen.
After they leave Mola tries to convince K to tell the Masters about her, so they can help. K convinces her not to. Mola also says she doesn't look Cealdish "not even a little".

That's pretty much it. Doesn't seem like a big deal, except that Auri gives K the strange coin.
INCyr
201. Audion
So somethinag in one of the posts above made me realize something. Lanre can't die until the Alueh fall from the sky. If we assume those are "angels" and Kovthe was supposed to have killed one.. think he did it in an attempt to kill Lanre and fufill the terms?
I origonally thought that the alueh was going to get in the way of him killing Cinder, but not so sure now.
INCyr
202. sprite420
Rereading Book One, I have a question about the Fire in the Fishery:

How did the sygaldry on the bone-tar cannister get damaged? When Kvothe was fixing the icebox at Anker's, he notes that the sygaldry that keeps it cool was exposed and calls that "sloppy artificing."
INCyr
203. sprite420
In "The Wise Man's Fear," Chapers 137-139, The Maer implies that he knew about the Leoclos Box long before he married Lady Lackless. Quothe the Maer:

"I have always thought... that everyone has a question that rests in the center of who they are. If you understand a man's question, it brings you closer to understanding the man himself."

"I believe everyone has some question that drives them. A question that keeps them awake nights. A question they worry like a dog with an old bone."

"Come, I insist. In fact I will offer you a trade, a question for a question."

"It's Meluan... If I am correct, she is bringing us the question I mentioned earlier."

I've come to think that the Maer is obsessed with the Leoclos box, and that's why it was so desparately important for him to marry Lady Lackless. This lends weight to the notion that Caudicus was an Amyr, likely trained at the University and sent to quietly poison the Maer to prevent the marriage. To prevent him from having access to the box. For the greater good.

The King of Vint. Leoclos Box. Seven things. The Lackless Door. The Doors of Stone.
INCyr
204. Marian, the son of Marian
Hello again, glad to see here new theories...

I just reread a few chapters and I found something, that might have some importance... every story, that is told in this main story, by Skarpi, Elxa Dal, Kvothe, Hespe and all the others has something in it, that has a meaning, sometimes good hidden, do you agree about that?

no-one mentioned so far - I at least haven´t found it mentioning by others - the story, that was invented by Kote and Bast in the frame story - about the Chronicler - Chapter 47 in WMF...

Kote "invented" in his telling, that the king, that has given a quest to the Chronicler, has his name written in a "book of glass, hidden in a bvox of copper. And that box is locked away in a great iron chest where nobody can touch it." (page 338)
much of this story is nonsense, just to tease the Chronicler, but this one part about the name of the king, that might not be just a fantasy...
especially, when it was Kote, who said that and then he is offended, when Chronicler says, that the whole thing is a bunch of nonsense...
I think, this is confirming the theory, that it might be Kvothe´s own name locked away in the chest under his bed...
INCyr
205. Dustball
I apologize if anyone else mentioned this yet, but here it is. Just looking for some fresh minds on a few details I noticed.
I think the Loeclos/Lockless/Lackless box is made of wood from the Cthaeh.

In WMF pg. 680, as Kvothe approaches the Cthaeh:
"The wind shifted, and as the leaves stirred I smelled a strange, sweet smell. It was like smoke and spice and leather and lemon."

Compared to WMF pg. 921 referring to when Kvothe is examining the box:
"The wood itself was interesting. It was dark enough to be roah, but it had a deep red grain. What's more, it seemed to be a spicewood. It smelled faintly of...something. A familiar smell I couldn't quite put my finger on. I lowered my face to its surface and breathed in deeply through my nose, something almost like lemon. It was maddeningly familiar."

Also, I feel like the Cthaeh's comment about the Maer could be incredibly important. In WMF pg. 683 as the Cthaeh speaks to Kvothe:
"Not many folk will take your search for the Amyr seriously, you realize," the Cthaeh continued calmly. "The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He's already come close to them, though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door."
The Cthaeh gave a thin, dry chuckle. "Blood, bracken, and bone, I wish you creatures had the wit to appreciate me. Whatever else you might forget, remember what I just said."

Out of all it says, why would this be the only witty comment Kvothe should be sure to remember, in order to appreciate. I'm curious as to how the Amyr, their door (probably the doors of stone/4 plate door and most likely what is behind them), and the Maer will be entwined.

Any thoughts?
Serena Dela Rosa
206. serenadelr
Thanks Dustball. That just gave me an idea. I don't know if some of you have thought about this...

When the Cthaeh says:

"The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He's already come close to them, though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door."

I think he is referring to The Lackless family! Get it? Lock. Door. Lock DOOR! It's gotta be related to the box that the Lackless have.

What do you think guys?

Ps, This thread is JUST awesome. My friends won't read TNotW no matter how much I insist. So glad that I can vent out here about my "crazy" ideas.
INCyr
207. Barman WesleyWaystoneInn
Dustball@205

You nailed it! I just completed my re-read of WMF and was racking my brain trying to remember where I had read about lemon scented wood, after reading K's inspection of the Loeclos box. Thanks.

On that note, what's in the box? Whatever it is has weight and K says it feels like glass or stone inside that definitely shifts when the box is moved. So, unless the name of the moon is in the form of moon rock, I think that eliminates that as a possibility. K also is reminded of the rhyme that says Lady Lackless keeps her husband's rocks.
Steven Halter
208. stevenhalter
@205 & @208: The tree in which the Cthaeh dwells is a candidate for the box.
The leading candidate for what is in the box is the stone that Selitos used to gouge out his eye.
INCyr
209. Marian, the son of Marian
has anyone found out yet, where on the map, between the Four Corners of civilisation is the Inn Waystone, where we follow Kote´s storytelling?
in NotW is a note, when Carter brings the scrael to the Inn, Kote speaks unknowingly, and declares, that it is not possible, that the scrael could have made it so far to the west, over the mountain....which mountain, where are they now? any clues? other clues, from what we could find out, where the frame story is happening?

and in WMF, when the village guys - Cob and the others - plus Kote are having the second toast to the late Shep, Kote is having his toast on the old friends that deserved something better, than they have got...
how many friends has Kvothe actually?? does he count Wil to his friends? i guess so, but I believe, that it is Sim, who he meant...it was first Sim, who he visited after his coming "home" to University...
I would count to his friends as well Abenthy, but...I am almost sure, that it was Sim, who he meant with his toast

what do you think?
INCyr
210. pdxtrent
I have a couple of comments, and one theory for you guys.
"There were rings unseen on his second hand,
One blood in a flowing band,
One was air all whisper thin,
And the ring of ice had a flaw within.
Full faintly shone the ring of flame,
And the final ring was without name."

I think that final ring, corresponding to a name, is the name of the moon, which we know is hidden, at least in part by the box.
So much for my theory.
Now for my comments.
'Lanre had sought knowledge where knowledge is better left alone" NotW pg 180
This I asume is the Chaeth. And this seems to be a step in his search for power, not the destination. The Chaeth told him where to go to find power, cause it knows everything. And it told him the most damaging possibility: Iax, behind his doors of stone.
"Tehlu always said"
NotW pg 191
This is my favorite Skarpi line. Because of what it seems to reveal. Is Skarpi implying he knew Tehlu before he became a singer and "were gone forever from mortal sight"? I don't know, but I wonder. And in that case, who is he? Aleph? One of the Ruach who became an Amyr? Someone unnamed?
I can't quote all the exact page numbers, but my final comment relates to this:
"stripped him of his tools, key coin and candle were all gone" NotW pg 3
Has anyone else noticed that Auri has given Kvothe gifts of a key, a coin, and a candle?
Steven Halter
211. stevenhalter
@209: Newarre (the town the inn is in) is in Vintas. See a full summation of that and other things we think are pretty certain at the post:
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/05/rothfuss-reread-speculative-summary-10-the-road-to-newarre

The mountains would be the Stormwal Mts.
Steven Halter
212. stevenhalter
@210:Interesting thought on the nameless ring. Yes, I would suspect that it is the Cthaeh to whom Lanre goes. And, yes, the gifts have been noticed and are intriguing. Good noticing.
John Graham
213. JohnPoint
RE Auri:

Though I agree that many of the other speculations about Auri are more likely to be true (e.g, that she's Fae, or one of the singers, or something else), whenever I read it, I still can't help imagining her as the girl that Ambrose "dated" who was then never seen again.

Early on, during a discussion of Ambrose and his lovelife someone (possibly Sim, but it's been awhile since I read it) states that there was a girl that Ambrose was interested in who just vanished and noone has seen since. IIRC, the implication is that perhaps he had her killed, or she just ran away. When I then saw Auri, I immediately linked the two, and it has stuck in my imagination since. I don't think this is actually the case, but it provides a different take on her mannerisms.

@ Barman Wesley, Marion and others: definitely check out the entire reread if you haven't yet. Many of the ideas that you're coming up with have been discussed in detail over there, and you'll find a whole community of people who are very interested in dissecting both books.
Jennifer Backstrom
214. Goldilox71
@176: I, too, have wondered whether Kvothe and Denna may be siblings, or half-siblings. I read a couple of comparisons to Luke / Leia, but I'm thinking more along the lines of King Arthur / Morgan LeFay (and, I just realized, Christopher Paolini's Eragon series). In many versions, Morgan was aware of their parentage before initiating a relationship and giving birth to Mordred, but in others she was unaware until afterward and just as much a victim of politics as Arthur.

What if Netalia Lackless was married / involved with someone socially suitable, but personally horrible (a Jakis or someone of the same ilk), and produced a daughter? Then she found Arliden and ran away (perhaps already pregnant with Kvothe, perhaps not). The two siblings were raised separately, and likely neither one was told the truth of his/her parentage.

This would add a new dimension to their continually frustrated almost-romance, as well as the possibility that they may be working toward opposite ends (Kvothe searching for the Amyr to aid in destroying the Chandrian, and Denna apparently working to redeem their reputation)
INCyr
215. Stormwind
I haven't found any references in this tread yet but has anyone considered that the Tahl might be the "Singers"?

There's a scene in Chapter 38 of TWMF that runs like this:

"Where would you go?" Simmon pursued his point doggedly. "For adventure?"

I though for a moment, quietly. "I guess I'd go to the Tahlenwald," I said.

"Among the Tahl?" Wilem asked. "They're a primitive nomadic people, from what I've heard."

"Technically speaking, the Edema Ruh are a nomadic people," I said dryly. "I heard a story once that said the leaders of their tribes aren't great warriors, they're singers. Their songs can heal the sick and make the trees dance." I shrugged. "I'd go there and find out if it was true."

"I would go to the Faen Court," Wilem said.

Simmon laughed. "You can't pick that."

"Why not?" Wilem said with a quick anger. "If Kvothe can go to a singing tree, I can go into Faen and dance with Embrula...with Faen women."

Wilem considers the Tahl's powers to be about as likely as the Fae - who turn out to actually exist. Plus, the Adem seem to believe that the Tahl have some kind of power. In Chapter 127, Penthe talks of going to the Tahl to be cured if she were to ever catch a disease from another Ademre.

Who knows? This may be foreshadowing that Kvothe visits the Tahlenwald in Book Three...

On a slightly related tangent, I wonder what's up with the trees that keep appearing in the narrative...?

When Kvothe starts telling his story, he says about the name "Maedre" that "I've never thought of "The Broken Tree" as very significant. Although in retrospect I suppose it could be considered at least partially prophetic."

The tree in question could be referring to:
- the oak that Kvothe brought down on Cinder during the bandit hunt
- the Adem's Latantha (sword tree)
- the abovementioned "singing tree" of the Tahl
- the Cthaeh
- something else entirely, possibly metaphorically (Denna does compare Kvothe to a willow tree at one point and he seems to be a broken man in the frame story)

Any thoughts on what, if anything, it might mean?
INCyr
216. solinta
Hey... anyone curious as to how Denna's name is so close to 'Denner Resin' and 'Dennerling'. Can't specifically remember... but i'm pretty sure that Bast refers to Dennerlings as a kind of evil/unpleasant fae. Denner resin is poison... see the link?
INCyr
217. jh89
After reading the next books title 'Doors of stone' i thought the numerous mentions of stone doors thoughout the books are interesting;
NOTW- In Kvothe's first hearing of lanre/lyra story in battle of drossen dor "After the battle was finished the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone"
Althought the enemy isnt named, im thinking the amyr (with Loren as their head) watch over the stone doors in the library.


WMF- When Kvothe is in the fae and listening to story about the moon being stolen "he stole the moon and with it came the war, who was it.... the first and greatest of namers... no calling names here i will not speak of that one, though he is shut beyond the doors of stone"

Also im thinking that Kvothe may have started the war after learning the name of stone thought practise with Fela (Who knows the name) and opening the doors of stone.....

On a side note; I mention briefly before my belief that lorren is of the amyr and his 'acquisions' division are members of the amyr looking for and bringing back all written knowledge of the Amyr.
INCyr
218. solinta
Hey everyone!
There has been speculations over the fact that the Chandrian always appear near waystones... And that Lorren is somehow connected to them or the Amyr... Check out the line on pg 62 of TWMF, chapter 'the Eolian'.
"Last was the archives. Five stories tall and windowless, it reminded me of an enourmous waystone."
Relevant somehow?
INCyr
219. solinta
Thoughts on how Lanre got his power from the Cthaeh, on page 338 'Interlude - The Hempen Verse' when Kote is making up the legend of 'The Chronicler' Old Cob comments:

"That last bit tickled my memory," he said slowly. "I seem to remember a story about this Chronicler fellow going to look for a magic fruit. Whoever ate the fruit would suddenly know the names of all things, and he'd have powers like Taborlin the Great."

What if this 'fruit' is based on some kind of truth. After all, there are hints in every story and song this book includes (well apart from songs like Jackass-Jackass). We know Lanre went looking for power and found it, and many think the Cthaeh was behind this... so is it possible that the Cthaeh (being a tree) gave Lanre its fruit?
INCyr
220. solinta
Thoughts on how Lanre got his power from the Cthaeh, on page 338 'Interlude - The Hempen Verse' when Kote is making up the legend of 'The Chronicler' Old Cob comments:

"That last bit tickled my memory," he said slowly. "I seem to remember a story about this Chronicler fellow going to look for a magic fruit. Whoever ate the fruit would suddenly know the names of all things, and he'd have powers like Taborlin the Great."

What if this 'fruit' is based on some kind of truth. After all, there are hints in every story and song this book includes (well apart from songs like Jackass-Jackass). We know Lanre went looking for power and found it, and many think the Cthaeh was behind this... so is it possible that the Cthaeh (being a tree) gave Lanre its fruit?
INCyr
221. gman
i dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet but i thought i would throw it out there. Auri has some conection to the amyr, kvothe had blood on his arm and she said he looked like an amyrand when he asked her about it she ran off.
INCyr
222. gman
@217 when kvothe was looking for books on the amyr didnt lorren tell him to stop and focus on his study's?
INCyr
223. Cali
Hello all,
I just found this thread and read through it, and I wanted to add a few things:
Firstly, about Kvothe's eligability. I think everyone has forgotten something. I do agree that Laurien is Netalia, but no one seems to have remembered that netalia was disowned. It then follows that Kvothe couldn't inherit whether he's legitimate or not.
Second, Laurien and Netalia. I really do think that they are the same. My evidence: Meluan is familiar to Kvothe and his description of her is reminiscent of Laurien. Laurien gets mad about the Lady Lackless poem. Arliden's song, which I missed the first time around. Laurien's description of her previous life sounds like court life in Vintas. Also, for her to teach Kvothe court ettiquette, she would have to have been high enough to know it all. There's more, but it's slipped my mind for the moment.
Third, about Kvothe's transformation. I don't think that he changed his Name, but that is a really fascinating theory. I think that Denna was somehow killed, and Kvothe couldn't prevent it. He killed Master Ash, causing the war, and all of this caused him to lose his faith in himself. He can still do everything, but without true faith, it falters, I think he let the thugs beat him up, though.
Bast. I never thought about Bast being Kvothe's son, but I can totally believe it, except that he talks as though he's reall old sometimes. Maybe the Fae time jumped around again.
Denna's relationship with Master Ash (Honetly, no offense meant to those with differing opinions) doesn't seem to be very teacher-student. It seems more like he's involved with the Amyr or Chandrian, but simply enjoys beating Denna. I really hope he's not Bredon, though. I liked Bredon a lot.
Regarding Denna herself, I think she got the 4C equivalent of CPR as a baby. Because of the event with the girl in Severen, I think she was llured away from home and ruined by a boy. Now she doesn't have any trust or self-esteem.
I am holding out hope that Day 3 takes too long to make a single book, and/or Kvothe is woken up and spawns a second trilogy or even just a fourth book. I don't want it to end! If anyone thinks they know when the next book will be released, let me know. I can't stand the suspense!
Melissa Allbrandt
224. CaliKingsDaughter
I just remembered sometthing else about Laurien and Netalia. someone suggested that Netalia was the younger sister and could then be Denna, but when Kvothe uncovers what happened (Netalia runs off), it says that Netalia was "disowned, leaving Meluan Lackless as the sole heir to the Lackless estate." Something like that, anyway. If this happened a bit less thann 17 years ago, Meluan would have been young enough to know only that her big sister was gone, and the Ruh had taken her, leading to her hate for the Edema.Also, does anyone know where Three Crossings is? If it's in Vintas, then there's more proof.
Andrew Mason
225. AnotherAndrew
I do agree that Laurien is Netalia, but no one seems to have remembered
that netalia was disowned. It then follows that Kvothe couldn't inherit
whether he's legitimate or not.

Probably so, though it's possible the disowning will be cancelled at some point - but that relates only to legal inheritance. If Aculeus (supposing he's the current head of the family) dies, the likelihood is that Meluan will be the sole heir to the estates, and after her whatever children she may have. But if we're talking about a magical inheritance, as implied by 'a son who brings the blood', there's no saying what rules that might follow.

I just remembered sometthing else about Laurien and Netalia. someone suggested that Netalia was the younger sister and could then be Denna,but when Kvothe uncovers what happened (Netalia runs off), it says thatNetalia was "disowned, leaving Meluan Lackless as the sole heir to the Lackless estate."

But 'leaving her as sole heir' allows the possibility that they had previously been joint heirs (which would indeed have been the rule in some real-world systems, notably the English), in which case Netalia could still be younger. (Not that I believe it myself. I'm coming round to the view that Denna may be Kvothe's sister, or half-sister, which would explain her Lockless qualities.)
Melissa Allbrandt
226. CaliKingsDaughter
@anotherandrew
You make some very good points. When I made the comment about Kvothe's eligebility, Iwasn't even thinking about that. Several people had said something about him being in line for the throne. That's all I meant. I really do think that Netalia was Laurien, though.
INCyr
227. Aris-Pierre
And what of the stone door....I beleve the lady fae mention something about doors into the land of the fae? And you didn't mention the song the boy sand him when he came back from the fae!
INCyr
228. Talenea
Patricks last post says that nor Vashet or Bredon were at the original draft of D2 . That means he probably isn't Mr Ash since it is such an important character and would be planned to be in the story from patricks firsts drafts.
If Bredon is an additional character he isn't covering up for any other but rather driving kuothe into something important that allows the story to flow
maybe he is only supposed to make Kovthes court play smother or drop some important information for further development.
INCyr
229. Mike Russo
I don't know how ANYONE could have missed the Lockless connection. I inferred who Kvothe's mother was as soon as she yelled at Kvothe for singing a derogatory song about "a real person," and I had an inkling near the first part of The Name of the Wind when it first came up. The part in TWMF, when The younger Lockless sister's name first comes up (for the marriage crisis), I jumped out of bed, literally, and I yelled "KVOTHE'S AUNT!!!" My roomate ran in, he thought I had fallen or hit my head or something. It was a big laugh. I love this series. Waiting for The Door of Stone is killing me! I'm going to relisten soon, to make sure I didn't miss anything.
INCyr
230. Apathy
I agree and dissagree with many in this post.
Some theories for DoS:

-Obvi Meluanis Kvothe's Aunt
-The Lockless box is Jax's
- The Greystones that are omnipresent in the story are passages between the worlds. Newmoon means entrance to the Fae. Fullmoon means an exit.
-Door in the Archives holds Iax (Jax), possible so does the lockless door
- The Chandrian cannot excape suffering through any of the doors (Sleep,forgetfullness, madness or death). It's their curse.
- The only way they can die it to destroy the world itself.
-I agree that the lackless box is made from the Clthae (or whatever),but not Kvothe's. His was explicitly stated as being roah.
- Not sure i agree that Kvothe changed his name. Either he is completly reluctant to use sympathy or unable,but i think its the former since is ability to preform the Ketan at the end of WMF.
-Bredon, i believe, is an Amyr, but that contradicts their culling o information with Denna's song with the possitive light on Lanre (Haliax). I don't believe he is of the seven though, since their pursuit is to cull information aswell.
- I think, somehow, Kvothe will release the nameof the moon and consenquently disrupt the balance of the two world (which is why the fae are so rampant.
- I believe Lorren is an Amyr, as he deterred Kvothe on his irst day in tomes from researching the chandrian.
- I believe kvothe will kill ambrose at the shattered fountain, or that ambrose will become king after the deaths of the other 12 in succession to the throne and the kvothe will kill him, sparking the civil war.
-Perhaps denna's song was commisioned so that the Seven couldn't track anyone using the name lanre, because the song would spread.


Just some ideas. Respond.
INCyr
231. blueice
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/49744-the-doors-of-stone/page__pid__3290084__st__80#entry3290084

chek out my
theories some are old that where mentioned here but there are a couple of new ones
INCyr
232. Hmm
Is it just me or has anybody else noticed that Skarpi, in the storytelling/arrest scene in N0tW, addresses Kvothe by name even though he never gave it? Very interesting.
Steven Halter
233. stevenhalter
Hmm@232:Yes, we noticed that. It is pretty much the key to Kvothe's actions in Tarbean. The theory is that Kvothe has been essentially not himself--running on autopilot, cursed and/or ptsd since his troupe was destroyed. Skarpi awakens him by Naming him.
INCyr
234. Achilles420
While re-reading The Name of the Wind I couldn't help but notice the amount of times Kvothe and the other characters say 'Chandrian' thoughout his story. If Kvothe is telling it all in a span of a day, then wouldn't he be attracting the Chandrian like Bast had warned him? Possible outcome in Book Three?
Nathan Love
235. n8love
@234
I think the difference between "Chandrian" and their respective names is the key. Remember that "Chandrian" probably just means "the seven", which is intentionally ambiguous. It is explicit in the book that someone must be using your true name for you to track them.

All that aside, some speculation has been made (in subsequent posts here) about K's possible intent to attract them, and for what purpose.
INCyr
236. itr
Completely loving this thread, just have another comment regarding the "Imre=Amyr+re" theory. In NW, near the end Cob is telling the story of how Kvothe was attacked and called down lightning (or rather, in his story a demon), and at some point he says:
“Since Kvothe couldn’t afford all that rich living in the University, he stayed in the town nextby instead, place called Amary.”
I wonder where he got the name Amary instead of Imre, seems kind of close to Amyr....
INCyr
237. Lee Ann
I am of the belief that Bradeon is Mr. Ash. There are many thing that make me think this and some of those you have mentioned. The cane, the story the nobles shared of him conducting Peagan meetings in the woods (the wedding in Treban came to mind when I read this), the dancing coincidence as well. But others also come to mind...he seems to be gone as well when Denna has left on a job, he has great knowledge of very old customs and old stories. Something in the way he played tac when he showed Kvothe he was not getting better...beating him over and over again in a cruel way, putting him in his place. He is being presented to kind and too helpful for there not to be a twist to it...or something he may be getting out of his interactions with Kvothe.

I also think that Kvothe has opened the door of stone and released that what the Amyr had locked behind it...the Lockless rhyme...his blood will open it...

Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door.
One of them a ring unworn
One a word that is forsworn
One a time that must be right
One a candle without light
One a son who brings the blood
One a door that holds the flood
One a thing tight-held in keeping
Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

The last line is one I also ponder over...which comes with sleeping...the moon, dreams, nightmares???

For some reason I think Auri has something to do with the Amyr...Auri's mention of Kvothe looking like the Siere Day and then running when questioned...just hit me as odd and a possibly connection...how long has Auri been there under the university...she is only 20 or so...Elodin should have known her, yes?...but no one seems to know who she is...odd don't you think. Mola even...who would be about the same age...knowing Devi but not Auri...strange. I think she has been there for a long time. Also the underthing...all of the old machinery and much of it being ahead of it time...I think there is something there in your mention of the connection between Imre and the Amyr...and the Amyr setting up the university. I think there is also a tie in with the Edema Rue...there part in this...knowing ALL stories, the Guilder Archivist who did not have time to chat with Kvothe yet stated "One Family" knowing him as a Rue. Also Lorrens questions to Kvothe regarding his father, Was you father Arliden the bard?? There is a circle here I believe that has not been connected yet...hopefully it will be joined in the third book :-)
INCyr
238. nobodiesxmiscreant
just guessing here but i would say that the jax that stole the moon is the first Lockless, bad luck and everything, and that the box passed down as an heirloom is the one he used to steal the moons name. kvothe might open it therefore releasing the moon and the world becomes whole again. the result would probably be a war between the fae and humans.
INCyr
239. Lee Ann
nobodiesxmiscreant...awesome theory. Very interesting
thistle pong
240. thistlepong
@238/239

We've addressed this in other threads, but I wanna summarize it here. We know from the frame that the moon is still moving. At the beginning of NW there's no moon. At the end of WMF there's moonlight. So, regarding Jax's box and the Loeclos box, one of the following must be true. Thery're not the same, or he doesn't open it.
INCyr
241. Kristof
Has anyone else noticed that the inscription in 'Rhetoric and Logic'
that Abenthy gives him says 'Beware of folly' and that is the name of
the sword he hangs in the inn? Possible connection.
Nathan Love
242. n8love
@ 241

Yup.

Ben knows things. I don't know what else to say about it. I really doubt there's anything else we can figure out about Folly without more information.
Nathan Love
243. n8love
It dawns on me that not everyone who finds this post has read the entire reread, including the speculation on Folly. By "anything else" I meant other than the conclusions in subsequent entries.
INCyr
244. CaliKingsdaughter
@itr
I think that's just a mispronunciation of Imre (Im-ree, Im-e-ree, Am-e-ree, Amary)
just a thought.
INCyr
245. Dimitra
About names:
Kote: Fort
Auri: Golden; Ari: Very holy woman; Oriel: Batle fire; Ariel: Lion of God; Aura: Breeze or breath
INCyr
246. Dimitra
About names:
Kote: Fort
Auri: Golden; Ari: Very holy woman; Oriel: Batle fire; Ariel: Lion of God; Aura: Breeze or breath
Ashley Fox
247. A Fox
Kote-Fort....Mmmm that has some nice ramifications with a few of or theories...
Ashley Fox
249. A Fox
Kote/Fort is from the Kannada (Idian) language. I was intrigued ;)
thistle pong
250. thistlepong
I only ask 'cause there was a... frenzy of this sort of thing last March in the wake of publication. I have a vague recollection fot he kote/fort thing coming up. It supports both the "Kvothe's hiding," and "Kvothe's waiting from a place of strength" theories.

You can use wiktionary to flex the text, though, and I don't know how fruitful it ultimately is. Blac of Drossen Tor could be something like "to abscond to/hide in the white clifff/rock," for example. And thus, I can't get the notion that the battle that turned the tide of Creation War occurred in the shadow of The Sheer (which coincidentally means a turning of the tide) and that maybe the enemy that was set behind the Doors of Stone went willingly. There's a lot of if coming off that sentence, though.

examples on a theme - dealing with sound
Meluan (Dutch) "I'm noisy"
Stapes (English) inner ear bone
Tempi (English) plural of Tempo

more flexing
Maershon Lerand Alveron - lean moon, the edge of truth or, like, Moon mayor of the border tax...

Anyway, this is why folks started asking him if he did this on purpose. Of course, he answers with a story.

To this day I really can't help it. Auri as Princess Ariel makes a tidy knot in the narrative. And looking above, if she's the Golden Lion there's the end of the alchemical magnum opus right there. But, you know, I still think I'd have to find evidence in the text and then go back and comment on how clever the naming was.
INCyr
251. Dimitra
Not to mention he calls his inn "Waystone" AKA greystone or loden-stone...A break from the road, as K tells Ben. And from his father's poem, the way to lead you into Fae.
INCyr
252. Dimitra
TH (re:154) In chapter 46 NotW, during the visit to Heaven, Elodin takes K into the room he was inprisoned. K asks Elodin “how did you get out?” and Elodin said “You see, once upon a time Elodin the Great found himself locked in a high tower…He had been stripped of his tools: his coin, key, and candle…But Elodin the Great knew the names of all things, and so all things were his to command…”

This went over my head because I heard it before and I assumed it was about Taborlin—it’s how the story begins with Cob telling a story about Taborlin the Great. Except, this time it’s Elodin who tells the same story and it’s about himself…

So…who is Elodin?

What do you think?

PS: This is where K learns the word for breaking stone: CYAERBASALIEN
Steven Halter
253. stevenhalter
Dimitra@252:CYAERBASALIEN is the sound Kvothe heard when Elodin turned the copper laced wall to sand. The sound you hear is just what your making mind hears. The name Elodin actually used would be quite more.
INCyr
254. Dimitra
Hi shalter,
I disagree, it's in the quoted context of what Elodin is saying.
Steven Halter
255. stevenhalter
@254:Yes, it is quoted as what Elodin is saying. Note that when Dal demonstrates the name of fire:
Dal hesitated for a moment, then smiled. He looked intently into the brazier between us, closed his eyes, then gestured to the unlit brazier across the room. “Fire.” He spoke the word like a commandment and the distant brazier roared up in a pillar of flame.
“Fire?” I said puzzled. “That’s it? The name of fire is fire?”
Elxa Dal smiled and shook his head. “That’s not what I actually said. Some part of you just filled in a familiar word.”
“My sleeping mind translated it?”
So, the word fire is quoted as what Dal said, but isn't actually what he said.
INCyr
256. Spades
You know we are always talking about how we think Bredon is amyr but Stapes could possibly be amyr because it is said that his family is extremely old and he is very close to the maer. Also the old name he uses for the birds is strange and Kvothe says he has heard it before but does not remember where. I am not sure if I am the only one who thinks that is strange but I would like somebody's input
INCyr
257. Barman WesleyWaystoneInn
@250. thistlepong, I've always believed that all components of our story, even pre-creation war events, take place within the same boundries, more or less. I think one of Skarpi's stories mentioned how the world was "broken and changed" after the creation wars, but that can mean the Sheer has always existed.

I've been looking into Lady Lacklesses' "black dress" lately. It seems ancient names remain unchanged, except for the switching of vowels. Therefore, bloc becomes black, and a clever twist of wording changes drossen to dress, again with vowel switching. In this context, it would make sense that the Lackless estate is near the Sheer, which was once the fabled location of the huge battle. Whatever Lady Lackless is hiding seems to be beneath the family estate. We know Kvothe claims to have "stolen princesses back from the barrow kings". What better place to have barrow kings than the place where "more people died than are alive today"?
Steven Halter
258. stevenhalter
Barman@257: "drossen to dress", Oooh, that's clever. So, we have:
Seven things has Lady Lackless
Keeps them underneath her black dress
-->
Keeps them underneath her blac drossen
Blac of Drossen Tor
Not sure if the Lackless estate has to be near the Sheer, but I'll bet that whereever it is, there is a nice hill/Tor. I like that there would be barrows at the battle site and so the Lockless estate occupies the former battle site. This lends even more wieght to the box containing the stone that Selitos jabbed his eye out with as the Lockless estate now becomes contiguous in space with the battles. Nice!
INCyr
259. Barman WesleyWaystoneInn
Vowel switching again...how about this one:
I once thought the sword in Kote's possession was not the one given to him in Ademre. However, after looking back on it, the descriptions match. Also, Kote reprimands Bast for the nonchalant way in which he was holding it when they were going to mount it on the newly made plaque. The name of the sword is Folly.

WMF Chap 125: Caesura...Think phonetically here. Kvothe believes Vashet says the name of the sword is Caesura when she says Saicere. The sound is so similar that he briefly believes she has said Caesura. Again, the only difference in the sound of these two words is the replacement of the vowel sound in the second to the last syllable. Kvothe later learns the name Saicere means to break, to catch, or to fly. Is it possible when he changed the name of the sword that he unknowingly changed the meaning from fly to foly?

Later in the same chapter Magwyn is teaching him the atas of the sword. He refers to the sword as Caesura and she responds:
"Saicere", she corrected sharply. "Do not presume to meddle with her name. It means to break, to catch, or to fly."

I know this is a long way off from even being classified as speculation, but guessing is all that is left to those of us who cannot simply wait for the last installment.
INCyr
260. OSL
I just realized something. When Kvothe talks about his parents early on, he mentioned that they never were actually, formally married. I think this may have ramifications in D3.
INCyr
261. avlin
First i would like to thank you for your post.
It realy is wonderfull to see that other people think the same. it just prove how great a book it is that give you so many hints yet assure nothing. And to my theory:
1. I was quite suprise that you are not sure jax is iax. Fellurian said so herselef when kvote told her about the story that it was the fae story to begin with
2. I wonder why you didnt mention master lorren - i think he is one of the amyr. Think about it. he stopped kvote from searching on the amyr at the first book, then banned him, when kvote talk to sim about the amyr he suddenly show up, take the book and order him to go. and the first thing he does was asking kvote about his father. i think kvote fatther met him before and ask about the chandrian
3. A
what i think happened 5000 years ago: there were two group - "namers" and "changers" who were led by iax. They created the fae world in order to improve the world and after iax stole the moon the war of creation started. lanre was on the good side, he help putting iax behind the door of stone but after lyra died he lost it. And here is what i think he did - he changed his name! His true name. i think that why he cant die, beacuse changing the name means changeing what you are. i think this also the reason why the other chandrian dont die and why he can control them. he changed their names. maybe that also the reason they cant stand people saying their names. since its twisted in someway it hurts them. i think their purpose is other to destroy the world (but cinder doesnt seem the type to follow such a plane) or to open the doors of stone free iax and help him create a new world where there is no suffering
4. Also at the frame story i think kvote had already destroyed the chandrian but paid a heavy price on the process (i cant remember the words exactly but chronicle mention somethingg like: they say there is a new chandrian - sound as if the old ones are no longer...)
INCyr
262. cagima
Appologies if already mentioned, I read until aprox #130 and will stp for today, just a quick thought before I forget it, as I think nobody else mentiones it.

- K is a very good actor
- As innkeeper he is clearly playing a role
- There are many hints as to the fact that he has lost his powers for different reasons ... but is that really so, or is he only playing his role very well? I think he still has his powers, which will make the plot in book 3 much easier (and logical) to continue, he will just have to be convinced by whoever that is time to go on.
- remember when he loses the fight (intentionally?) to the soldier, and than says something along the lines of "I forgot who I am". We all asume he means he forgot that he is now powerless Kote, but maybe he forgot that he is the powerfull Kvothe, and only in the middle of the fight remembers and stops winning (at the beginning of the fight he seems to be clear winner)
- more important however in my theory is the part of the book where he goes out and fights for himself half a dozen or more of some terrible creatures that no one else can beat? Please people, how could he beat them is he truly lost his powers? Or at least, how could someone killing those creatures not win a fight against one drunken soldier???
- reason he went out and killed them quietly (as oposed to organizing the village to attack them or similar) is to keep his hideaway safe. If those creatures come after the village and kill everybody, he would have to move on, or fight the creatures with public watching, hence proving that he is powerfull but more importantly giving up his disguise and his hideaway.
- why he is hiding we will find out in book3

btw I like the thought of Bast being his sun with Felurian!

Also the thought of Auri being the fallen moon, that would make killing an angel (auri) the right thing to do, assuming that by killing her she can return to be the moon... a bit far fetched I guess

I fully agree on the whole Lackless connections, including Larren ("the protector of the stone door in the library") and chronicer ("The one sent out to get Kvothe back in action")

Anyway, just my penny worth, and sorry for my non-native English

C
INCyr
263. avlin
I already comment but I have just finish reading the second book and found that some of my theory had crushed to dust.
Kvote steal didnt kill the chandrian otherwise Bast wouldnt be so afraid when Kvote says their names. But I steal think he killed some of them or else I dont belive he would just give up and go hiding, no matter what happend

And to kagima, I dont think Bast is Kvote son. He is 150 years old. Also its true that time pass diffrently in the fay world.
INCyr
264. AviaLee
I have noticed a connection, and I'm not sure it's original, but:

Doors Of Stone : Loden-stones/Waystones/Greystones

There are doors (plural) : there are loads of these stones.

The Loden-stones/Waystones/Greystones are certainly of significance. This might be it.
INCyr
265. Bojangles
Greystones are the doors to the fae, it is where Kvothe returned from Felurian
INCyr
268. Thiloquine
Any therioies that haliax is jax i think are incorrect, because in skarpi's story, it says selitos is only matched in naming to aleph, iax and lyra, and this was before lanre turned into haliax.
And also, the great stone road seems very interesting. its hardly been mentioned, and it begins at imre... seems significant.
And, this is only a wisp of a thought, but rhetoric and logic are fundemental states of thought. And in the fae world, grammarie is the art of making things be, while glamourie is the art of making things seem. grammar and logic have similar definitions, structural and right.
while rhetoric and glamour have similar definitions, excessive and flowery. its a weak link, but yeah.
And kvothes dad also knew the poem thing that shehyn says to kvothe. when hes talking to ben he says a line 'something the shadow-hame", and the last line is "Alaxel bears the shadow-hame"
And some interesting things:
aleph is mentioned as lord in skarpis other story about the creation of the amyr.
Bast is skilled in glamourie
Haliax never sleeps
Folly is pale and elegant, it doesnt reflect anything, that is the same description of cinders sword.
INCyr
269. Thiloquine
#104soy
obligation, let or lien is a phrase, though not common, it is a real world phrase, it roughyl means obligation, payment or debt.
INCyr
270. MElanierice
I believe that kvothe somehow hurt his hand, removing the sensitvity from it, somehow. He accidently stabs his own thumb when weaving the holly, but feelts nothing and simply stares at it. When he is fighting the soldier he has the upperhand, excuse the pun, until the soldier suprisingly slips out of his hand, as if he did not have the grip he thought he did. Thus removed sensitivity. And for his failed sympathy, maybe he simply cannot believe and not believe at the same time, his mind is tired, weary and broken. He knows the truth of things.
INCyr
271. Ballaratatat
Ambrose wasnt in the first draft of the story, so i dont think he is the king that is killed, to much of a big deal.
i think, which absolutely no one has said on this thread, not one. Is that kvothe kills the actual vintish king? or maybe the autran emprorer? or even the yillish king or the caeldish, and so forth. eveyone presumed it was either going to be ambrose, alveron or bredon. dont know why though
thistle pong
272. thistlepong
Ballaratatat@271

Hey, welcome to the reread. Most of the discussion occurs in the several dozen other threads that follow this one. Look for Rothfuss Reread. So, while you're technically correct, Roderic Calanthis has been a popular theory for quite some time. In fact, in the most recent thread (with as many posts as this one despite being only a month old), I show how some textual clues and underlying symbolism practically guarantee he's the king, killed. I hope to have the structural component of the argument ready by this month's post.
INCyr
273. Ballaratatat
thistlepong@272

sorry if its been mentioned before on another thread, im quite new to this, but i will check out your theorys of calanthis' death, this is all very very inetersting.
INCyr
274. velleity
Two quick thoughts:

1. The angel that Kvothe kills is one of the original Amyr-angels (from Skarpi's story), who are still alive. I.e.: Perial, Ordal, Andan.

Subpoint to this is that, when the drunk tavern visitor recalls that "I saw the place, in Imre, where you killed him. The cobblestones are all shattered." I don't think that's from killing Ambrose Jakis. I think that's where Kvothe killed the angel.

2. The four-plate door is IN the Archives. I think what's behind it is all the secret information about the Amyr: all the books that have been quietly purged from the main Archives, and from libraries around the world. (Possibly one of the jobs of the armed scrivs who travel the world acquiring books.)
INCyr
275. 00Justi00
I haven't read through all the comments, but in the article you did not mention this.
Lorren. In NotW Kvothe writes a note for the scribes to find him anything in the Archives about the Amyr.
When the Master sees it he almost forcefully drills it into Kvothe's head that it is nonsense and then personally crosses out the writing.
If anyone reads that short encounter, you will definitely find it to be suspicious.
Steven Halter
276. stevenhalter
velleity@274:Those are the only angels we know about, so that seems like a good bet (unless it is a metaphorical angel).
Ashley Fox
277. A Fox
The Amyr and 'angels'/singers are seperate beings. Also Perial is neither, in Trapis' story she is the mother of Tehlu. The lackless ryhm also has a version with Perial. Teh-lu. First-Lock. So it is possible that she is indeed Tehlus mother pre-transformation, and one of the early Lady Lacklesses. Trapis comes from a deviant branch of Tehlinism...perhaps this brance includes more from the 'original' story? From the Justices reaction this is obviously rather taboo in mainstream Tehlinism.

Your subpoint and 2. are good. Certainly strong possibilities with the limited info we have there! :)
Adam Price
278. Zuphlas
Quick question about the shattered cobblestones , as if I remember correctly the mention of those also brings up the fact that no-one can fix them. Is there any form of magic we know of yet that could do that? I mean, naming could probably shape the earth, but I don't really see how that would make it resistant to further non-naming sculpting.

On the subject of the four plate door, on my latest read-through I've become convinced the method of opening it involves dreams. Specifically, opening it in your dream first. There's a bit when Kvothe first finds it and swaps dream stories about it with someone - the other person dreams of what's behind it, but Kvothe says that when he dreams he just finds himself in front of it. Plus of course one of the Lackless rhymes also mentions sleeping but not dreaming and references another door as one of the things that stands before the Lackless door...
INCyr
279. GF Corvus
Just started reading your summaries recently, and I have a comment about Speculative Summary 12.

You mentioned Kvothe's invisible rings possibly being a metaphor for him keeping some of the names he knows secret. This gives him an advantage by making others think he has more weaknesses to exploit. So, why wouldn't he also have a ring of a name he doesn't actually know? What I'm getting at is that the 'ring with no name' could be a metaphor for a name he pretends to know by wearing a ring made of whatever it is. This gives him another advantage by making his enemies anticipate the wrong thing.

Also, a comment on magic. Naming is just another kind of sympathy. The sympathetic link is the person's name. If you have someone's hair, you can do bad things to them; if you have their name, you can do anything with them.
INCyr
280. tamara kell
I think the key that auri gave to kvothe is important
INCyr
281. tamara kell
I think the key that auri gave to kvothe is important
INCyr
284. sosages
Great reads / info here.
A few things that probably already got covered but...

doors of stone - as written above it strongly suggests the amyr are behind the doors (good or bad?) but one thing i think was missed was when K came back from killing the bandits in the Eld he meet a travelling troupe down on their luck and bear baiting. With them was a young lady who had a song about the doors of stone

It is also mentioned somewhere that it was possible to disapear between a stone and reappear somewhere else. Is this the doors of stone or Weystones providing this power?
Or perhaps both? are the doors for the Amyr and the Weystones for Cinder and his gang?

one other thing, when K is off in the fae world i am sure the hot naked fae says something about fae travelling among the human realm. I get a feeling these fae are in the guise of Tinkers.
INCyr
285. Frank18
Just some thoughts to add to the other amazing details here. I Hera them all and didn't notice that anyone had caught this in regards to kvotheS loss of abilities.

I think that Kote still knows the ketan and is in control of his physical abilities. He did face down five scrael and live to tell the tale. Bast is even shocked that he survived the encounter stating that Kote should be dead. I also believe he was winning the fight with the thugs until he remembered he was pretending to be an inn keeper who would not know a whole lot about fighting.

I think only his sympathy and naming abilities have been impaired, trapped or whatever theory you subscribe to.
INCyr
286. Frank18
Also I was just reading tnotw and chronicler, I think, mentions that many believe kvothe is a new chandrian. So it may be possible that he killed at least one chandrian that would need to be replaced since there numbers always number 7, at least that was my understanding. Not sosure on this one tho.
INCyr
287. JLee
Has anybody brought up the part in the beginning of NTW where Chronicler calls K a "red handed killer" and K agrees that he is? I don't have the book on me, so I can't cite a page, but it happens around the morning after K saves Chronicler's life and he's trying to "hold own story against ." Given the importance of K's hands, and the agreed upon fact that red hands symbolize the Amyr, it seems like strong evidence for K eventually becoming an Amyr.
INCyr
288. heyooo
I think Denna is a member of the Fae. Notice whenever she "disappears" Rothfuss includes descriptions of the sky.....or more specifically the moon. The full moon.
INCyr
290. Athought
I've been reading this page for a while Idk if this has been a thought.. So many comments. I like the idea of Kvothe's name being changed. Only what if Kvothe didn't change his name and it was someone else that changed it? Like Denna/Elodin?
Nez E
291. Nezzynoo3
Following the numerous theories about the entrances to the Fae/waystones... We are told this directly in c14 of NotW. Arlinden recounts a poem when they stop by the first way stone 'standing stone by old road is the way, to lead you ever deeper into Fae' so I definately think they are doorways into the Fae lands, and it's significant that the Waystone pub is the home of two men, Kvothe and Bast who are repeated recorded as older than their human years. I think a lot of time is spent in that realm.
Nez E
292. Nezzynoo3
Going back to this poem, the idea that multiple people and objects have to come together for this has been mentioned, but I have an alternative idea.
Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door.
One of them a ring unworn
One a word that is forsworn
One a time that must be right
One a candle without light
One a son who brings the blood
One a door that holds the flood
One a thing tight-held in keeping
Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

I think Kvothe already has all these things by the end of D2. A ring not for wearing could be the ring mulerian/his aunt gives him that he is told not to wear by Bredon. He already for swore his word when he promised Denna he wouldn't look for Mr Ash, swearing his name and hand and power? ( which he appears to have lost in the frame story ) The time thing, I don't know but suspect is moon related/ twilight. The candle without light - the snoopers lamp he made and Devi had, which conceals it's light to others. He has the blood in his veins as the son of Natalie lackless. The door that hold the flood is probably the lockless box Maer has inherited through marriage, or it's relating to one of the doors in the underthing that Auri showed him. One thing tight-held could be his secret about his past, loss of family, desire for revenge on the Chandrian. Alternatively it could be an object like the key Auri gave him. Thing that comes from sleeping - this could be the lethani that's from his sleeping mind, the Names he has learnt, or his survival skills from when he was 'sleeping' for three years in Tarbean as a kid.
I think he has to go back to the Archives and will be able to open the door, thinking it will help him understand Seven things stand before
The entrance to the Lackless door.
One of them a ring unworn
One a word that is forsworn
One a time that must be right
One a candle without light
One a son who brings the blood
One a door that holds the flood
One a thing tight-held in keeping
Then comes that which comes with sleeping.
about the Chandrian or Amyr but instead he releases Iax and triggers the start of the current war.
INCyr
293. Cory Wyborney
I'm not sure if I've missed the bus on this, but the lockless box isn't locked. It was Named.
When Fela made her stone ring, it was covered in subtle, swirling patterns. The same description is given for the Lockless Box.
John Graham
294. JohnPoint
Cory @293 -- That's a really nice catch.

We've speculated before that the Yllish story knots are tied to Naming, but I haven't seen anyone mention that Fela's Named/Shaped ring has, in essence, the pattern of a story knot covering its surface. And that the Loeclos box has the same type of pattern on it.

Here are the actual quotes:
Fela gave a radiant smile and held out her hand for all of us to see. The rind wasn't smooth as I'd first thought. It was covered in a thousand tiny, flat facets. They circled each other in a subtle, swirling pattern unlike anything I'd ever seen before.
And:
"It's a flowing pattern, like scrollwork. But it doesn't repeat, it changes..." A thought strick me. "It might be a Yllish story knot."
Kvothe believes it's a carving, but if it's actually a sign of the Shaping that created it... And perhaps that same patterning indicates other items which have been Named/Shaped. Nice.
INCyr
295. Violette
For what it's worth, the story never says Kvothe killed an angel. It says he tricked a demon to get his heart's desire, and had to fight an angel to keep it.
It's Chronicler, thinking on this, who says that Kvothe has "the face of someone who killed an angel", but it's not said that he actually did it. Knowing Rothfuss' care with words, I wouldn't presume to take the angel-killing for a fact.
I think if he killed someone he very much cared for (Denna?), then he might very well look like "someone who killed an angel".
INCyr
296. J33
If the connection between the Edema ruh and the Adem being one tribe at one point is true it is a blatant rip off of Robert Jordans the Wheel Of Time in which two groups, one warrior who practice polygamy/free love called the Aiel and a group of traveling Tinkers who move in brightly painted wagons and practice a code of non-violence called THE WAY OF THE LEAF split from an orginal source.
In my opinion this makes the theory even more likely as Robert Jordan has been hugely influential to numerous fantasy writers and it is very likely Rothfuss has read the wheel of time series.

My second point is that if the box the lackless had does represent the tinkers pack that jax had, then it would fit nicely into the fact that the only way to open it is by decoding the yillish story KNOT carved into it; just like the only way to open the tinkers pack was to untie the actaul KNOT.
INCyr
297. RBSIV
Random thoughts while catching up:
My take on the Lackless Door Seven things:
One of them a ring unworn - the ring of wood "not for wearing"
One a word that is forsworn - an oath to not seek D's Patron, broken
One a time that must be right - a moonless night
One a candle without light - gift from Auri
One a son who brings the blood - Kvoth
One a door that holds the flood - Door on Lackless land which can be opened to Fae
One a thing tight-held in keeping - contents of Lackless box
Then comes that which comes with sleeping. - use of the 'sleeping mind'

On 'ring that bears no name' my guess is copper. copper appears to be immune to naming, so bears no name...

If Lorren knows of Arliden the Bard, then he knows who Arliden ran off with and exactly what Kvoths lineage is... and doesen't say/do anything? (That we know of)
INCyr
298. VincentBlack
I found some direct contradiction between NotW and WM'sF... In the first book, Kvothe claims that there are some important events yet to come: such as:::" My trip to Alveron's court, Felurian....etc"
My point is: if the trip to Vintas was SO important.. why would he, intentionally, call it "boring" in book 2...he said something along the lines of: "there's no need for me to tell you about it...boring, nothing special..."
I believe that the reason he never spoke of the trip is that he made some connection or he met some important character there. however, so as not to ruin the story, he didn't say it...
Kvothe is a showman, he says so many times. It's just the kind of thing he would do to make an engaging story of his chronicles...
John Graham
299. JohnPoint
VincentBlack @298:

I interpret the "my trip to Alvernon's court" as referring to the time actually spent at/around the court, not as the actual period of transportation to the court. Just as someone might say "Here are pictures from my trip to Hawaii", which (I expect) would be pics from the islands, not from the flight there.

Pat is on the record saying that he had to cut a lot from WMF to get it published. I think the actual trip (though eventful) was unnecessary to the plot of the KKC, hence sacrificable when push came to shove in the editorial process.

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