According an interview Ms Jemisin did with Sam Sykes, my taste in fantasy is rife "classism...racism, sexism, ableism, and probably some other “isms” I don’t even know the names of." (Sykes' words)

Ms Jemisin: "That’s because the fantasy readership is *conservative* at its core — tradition-obsessed,change-resistant, and more than a little bigoted."

Obviously they know me better than I know myself, so I will take a pass on 100,000 Kingdoms.

@Sophie Gale: I want to thank you for pointing me towards that interview, I actually really liked it. Here's the link for other folks who want a good read and analysis of the "chosen one" trope in fantasy.

I gave my brother the first two books in her series over the holidays, so I'll to finish them late and check back into the discussion.

Well, that was pretty revealing and not in a flattering way. While I certainly liked Ms Jemisin's astute analysis of the problems of the Chosen One trope at the beginning, it became a bit of a mess after that.

Take this rather hideous, lazy over-generalisation:

That’s because the fantasy readership is *conservative* at its core — tradition-obsessed, change-resistant, and more than a little bigoted. And yeah, if you want to be a bestseller, then to some degree you have to cater to this core.

I'm sorry, but what the hell? I'm a self-identifying (male) liberal feminist, and I find that pretty offensive. Where is her data to support this claim that the fantasy-reading public is dominated by conservatives? And who is she to say conservatives really do endorse Chosen One birthright narratives? I mean, there's ample evidence to the contrary: hard work and by-your-bootstraps self-reliance are a big part of social ethos espoused by contemporary conservatives. Of course, adulation of wealth and privilege may be associated with conservatism through the rise of such things like the so-called prosperity gospel and general pro-business rhetoric, but that’s hardly the whole population, and it still takes place within context of free markets and a high degree of social mobility (at least compared to the usual fantasy setting). Wealth within a state-controlled feudal system dominated by heritable privilege and static social castes, is radically different.

So her claim must depend on some (alleged) hidden features of conservative cognition or whatever. It goes without saying that such extraordinary claims require at least some evidence, rather than just pithy insulting generalisations.

I grew up enjoying most of the major fantasy and sci-fi works of the past couple of decades. And though I am conscious of some of the limitations of the genre, such as the lack of moral complexity and ambiguity, and the sometimes troubling preconceptions about gender roles, that doesn't mean I can't enjoy these works anyway. So I don’t accept being judged for being able to appreciate these works without imposing some kind moral test before I read anything, which frankly sounds horrific and rather childish.

I also find it very rich that Ms Jemisin derides the lack of morally ambiguous Chosen Ones, and then proceeds to admit she has never given the Thomas Covenant series a chance because she couldn't get past the rape scene. Sorry but the rape scene is exactly the sort of moral bad act that she is looking for a Chosen One to commit to bust this insidious trope wide open. How can she so glibly excuse herself for not even bothering to see where the book leads if she is so concerned with this issue?

Apparently you can only demolish the terrible Chosen One trope if you stay within the confines of pre-approved feminist-compliant methods of demonstrating Chosen One moral ambiguity. That’s rather pathetic. Thomas Covenant is one of the better fantasy series ever written. She should give it a chance.

Thank you for posting a follow-up reminder here, Brit! :)

Thanks for the links, Brit; thanks for the interview link, slickhop!

Sophie Gale 1, you've got a bit of the wrong end of things. The words "classism...racism, sexism, ableism" come in from the blockquoted bit that I believe is all N.K. Jemisin's words. She's saying there "If some people are *meant* to be rulers, then that means some people are meant to be ruled" and, based on how you divide up the two groups, you get the -isms. Do you disagree that having a "chosen group naturally fated to lead" necessitates a non-chosen group that gets stuffed?

Wolfmage 3, I wonder, are you getting distracted by a different meaning of conservative than the one Jemisin is using here? You can't deny that the fantasy readership is happy to buy book after book of bands of scrappy heroes with one male focus going on quests to defeat great evils. Is she saying that people who buy fantasy books like their plots about like the plots were in 1990, 1980, 1970? Tradition obsessed, change resistant?

Or there's a solid argument that the typical fantasy book pseudo-Europe setting is unexaminidely -ismful, combined with an argument that the side of the political spectrum that most touts its bigotry is the "conservative" side.

Either way, seems like a potentially fair statement. Though, at this point I should ask, are you a person who believes that you've inadvertently soaked up some of the BS attitudes floating around about various things like race, sex, etc? The way you're feeling judged, it doesn't sound like you're looking to discuss?

As for Covenant, dude, she's on your side there! He is the one "ugly, lazy, physically unfit, or dead stupid" Chosen One! She mentions not reading to the end because it means she can't say yay or nay on whether he "stayed that way to the end, and was the *good guy*".

You gotta hand it to her, she's right, you're never going to see a book with Gordo the Fat who will lead us into a glorious golden age. At least, not until there's some more serious thought and deconstruction put into the genre. At which point you can say fairly that Donaldson was decades before his time.

MadelineF @ 5

Thanks for your thoughtful post; however, I’m not entirely convinced.

From the outset, Ms Jemisin declares she is decidedly left-of-centre, and IMO that does establish the kind of political overtones to the discussion that you are trying to minimise.

You are correct to note that ‘conservative’ can have a less political charged context that means being resistant to change and old fashioned, etc. But I don’t think she meant it in such a neutral way. If she did, she was being rather cavalier and insensitive to political conservatives by phrasing it this way without qualification. In this context, the inclusion of bigotry alongside these other conservative characteristics is a bit glaring.

Although there are no doubt many fantasy books that are flimsy and vulgar in terms of their characters and tropes, I don’t think that gives her the right to label every species of that vulgarity as a conservative phenomenon, and then judge the readers of the genre so stridently. What about the fact that better works in genre tend to earn comparatively better commercial success? What about those who read trashy stuff as a kind of guilty pleasure rather than some kind of intellectual nourishment? What about the vulgar stuff that cannot fairly be categorised as part of a conservative stable of ideas?

"Though, at this point I should ask, are you a person who believes thatyou've inadvertently soaked up some of the BS attitudes floating aroundabout various things like race, sex, etc? The way you're feeling judged, it doesn't sound like you're looking to discuss?"

That's an interesting question. I can't say no without qualification, but I have spent a significant amount of my life studying history, politics, philosophy and law. I also have a passion for science and economics. These are all imperfect shields against the human capacity for self delusion, and other forms of cognitive bias, however, they are some of the best weapons we have to inoculate the mind. On that basis, I invite you to check out the Wheel of Time re-read to see for yourself whether my comments are appropriately civilised and at arm's length from the typical conceits of the genre... I've read the 13 books of WoT cover-to-cover dozens of times, and I listen to the audio books almost every night as I go to sleep. If any series has had an opportunity to uncritically penetrate my brain and contaminate my values it would be that one.