Mon
Aug 2 2010 11:28am
Towers of Midnight Prediction Open Thread

In anticipation of the penultimate Wheel of Time installment Towers of Midnight, Tor.com is pleased to offer this open thread for you to toss out your predictions and theories! 

This space is for Towers of Midnight-related theories not related to the always amazing re-read by Leigh Butler.

Do NOT post actual spoilers, if you have them. Speculation only.

As always, treat each other with respect, especially when you disagree.

810 comments
LewsTherin
1. LewsTherin
I predict Mat will enter the Tower of Ghenji! You guys heard it here first.
diane heath
2. jadelollipop
The Towers of Midnight is greatly anticipated and one reason is the Tower of Ghenji (sp?). Mat's return to Finnland and the rescue of Moraine. Who is the 3rd man that Moraine did not recognize. (Noal is a popular choice although I have seen some claim Luca will be the 3rd man. (I don't think he is near enough to Mat to join up with Mat and Thom though). OTOH, I sometimes feel I am one of the few who enjoy traveling with the circus. :)
Another Tower we hope to see,expect to see, is the Black Tower. How will Taim be defeated? Will Logain come into his glory (or is his glory the future view of him as the Dragon Reborn while Rand fades into obscurity?) What will happen to Pevara? She is the one I would fear turned by the 13 x 13 but since there have been rumors of a MOA for her I hope she escapes, defeats them or ??
What about Myrelle and her bond with Lan. She has 4 bonds now --did she really need to go to the BT?
The actual Towers of Midnight is in Seanchan and although we have been told we will not go to Seanchan proper (unless the post TG books are written),it would seem that the role of the Empire in the LB will play out this go around.
1. Tuon and Rand meet again?
2. Mat and Tuon meet again (Yes Please)
3. The sul'dam, damane, AS ?? come to a head
4. Can Tuon Channel?
Tess Laird
3. thewindrose
Whoo Hoo!! A Shiny new prediction thread!!!

Mat and Elayne will play dice. Mat will win and have funding for his and Aludra's Dragons and other idea's she is coming up with. This will be before the Tower of Ghenji that Mr. LTT came up with @1.

tempest™
Victoria Gooderson
4. t0kengirl
Whats in Mats envelope from Verin? Any ideas?

Personally, I hope Nynaeve runs into Myrelle.
LewsTherin
6. SPC
Does anyone know whether Carlinya was among the AS taken by the Seanchan? Way back, Min had a viewing of a raven tattoo for her - the only other visions of raven tattoos we've had are for Imperial property. I'm wondering if this is going to be resolved.

I'm hoping, now that Rand is theoretically at one with himself again, to get some more AoL flashbacks. Maybe clarify whether MAE all have some link to Ilyena (I know there are lots of theories on this, but they all have one kind or another of Pattern-related or supposedly-lost talent and it seems non-coincidental to me, plus the names seem like a clue) One way or another I want more AoL.
Barry T
7. blindillusion
Thanks Torie and Pablo!!

Nice to see an idea of mine went through...even if Rob did most of the leg work. ;)

Suppose I'll post my first Prediction from the Open Thread:

Moiraine will make a brief appearance in the Prologue:

One of the Eelfinn will make the comment, “It is almost time.” Moiraine's reply will be to smile.

And Sub, check the Open Thread. 1313...I say Thank You.
Irene Gallo
8. Irene
RobM:
Torie is, in deed, looking out for us! But, alas, Pablo has moved on to the exciting ebook frontier with Open Road Media...Although he is still very much here in spirit.
Bonnie Andrews
9. misfortuona
YAY, a brand new shiney thread. Thank you Torie! Thank you Pablo.

Also thanks to Blind and RobM, for making the suggestion.

Jadelollipop I hadn't given thought to what trouble Taim might cause if he gets his hands on Myrelle. What if Lan falls before the fighting even begins at the Gap. Will Nyn have to lead the Malkieri?

No final MOA for Lan would just be wrong.

Mis-musing
Rob Munnelly
10. RobMRobM
@8. Thanks, I. Will be a bit sad not having TP to clean up the site. On a good news side, always nice to have more T when we need action.

R
Sam Mickel
11. Samadai
Rand will find out he's going to be a daddy
a a-p
12. lostinshadow
Thanks Torie!

and of course to Blind and RobM for a) thinking of it and b) going after it

Not sure how serious I am about it but I kinda like it so I will repost from the Open Thread

- paralleling how Moraine and Siuan develop lock step in New Spring, it turns out that Moraine has actually lost the ability to channel. -

and...

Perrin will be beside himself with joy about his new BFF Galad who has done him two amazing favors a) gotten Berelain off his back and b) declared to the Whitecloaks that he is a not a Darkfriend
john massey
13. subwoofer
Yay!

It's sooo beautiful!

And there is sooo much room!

BOUNCE!

My first prediction- Lan- guy is gonna whoop some a$$! While marching across hell's half acre he will come across some gooders and fight some baddies and will have the Borderlander armies at his back- finally.

Woof™.
Mikey Bennett
14. EvilMonkey
Hello everybody! (Hi Doctor Nick)

Long time with no internet access. Had to take a long trip. No predictions other than what everyone already knows. Just wanted to say glad to be back and hopefully I won't have such a long hiatus again.

Shadowkiller
James Jones
15. jamesedjones
Thanks, Torie and Irene (and Pablo, in spirit), and all of Management Services!

Byar's head will explode when Galad decides that Perrin is not a darkfriend.
Tricia Irish
16. Tektonica
Thanks Torie! ::nods to Blind and RobM::

Oh boy oh boy...a shiny new thread that loads fast! Well timed, me thinks.

I have so many questions (and so few predictions).

I do think that Rand will now have free access to his LTT, aol memories and knowledge. With that comes The Song. Loial returns to Rand's side, as does Avi (from Rhuidean), and together they teach the Aiel that want to go the Way of the Leaf, along with the Tinkers, The Song.

Once the Seanchan are on board with Rand (when, I know not!) the Seanchan Ogier join The Song. There's a Big Ol' Sing-a-long and things start growing again, averting famine and healing the land. (This could be towards the end of the book, or even the last book.)

One last thing on Loial....I think he and his wife choose to become Nyms to look after the Growing and to see that The Song never dies again. (How they become Nyms may be something Rand may know about.)
Barry T
17. blindillusion
JEJ.

Byar is all well and good, but I wonder what Dain is going to do when Galad not only decides Perrin is not a Darkfriend but also that he had nothing to do with Geofram's death.

That should prove interesting, especially with that good ole Fain Taint thrown into the mix.

edit:

And Tek.

Just one thing. Ogier are natural beings. Nym are constructs. It'd be interesting to see how something that already lives goes from being natural to constuct.... It just doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do.

Though I see where you're coming from. Without the Nym, the Song might not matter much.

I see Loial and Erith starting relations with the Seanchan Ogier, after the whole Book of Translation debacle is settled.
Tricia Irish
18. Tektonica
Blind@17: ::waves::

Nym's are constructs, check. But who constructed them? Out of what? The Ogier have such affinity for the land, trees, even time. They Sing wood into shapes, for heaven's sake. I think they might be a good piece of clay to work with. Just a thought.....

I see your idea of Loial (and Erith) as ambassador to the Seanchan Ogier, as well. He's really the only Ogier that's been out and about much lately....that we've seen anyway. Given the conservation of characters, they are a natural choice.

Re: Galad: Do you think he'll remain at the head of the Whitecloaks after he finds out his mother is alive? If Egs bonds Gawyn as her warder, Elayne will be needing a First Prince of Andor. Galad? That would be funny, given her dislike of him! Will Galad marry Berelain and rule somewhere himself?

I'm looking forward to the Rand reveal about his lineage! How will Galad react to his half-brother? Elayne to the fact that Rand is indeed royal? Rand's friends to his royal blood? I do hope Elaida finds out how completely misinterpreted her Prediction was! LOL.

How will Rand be different after his "integration" on DM. Will he be more like LTT? How will everyone react to him with a different persona? If it changes...
Rob Munnelly
19. RobMRobM
Serious ToM predictions (for a change):

1. Bloodknives will kill eight sisters (plus or minus two), including Beldeine, before rooted out and killed. Karlin will be on the warpath until the Bloodknives are found and killed.

2. Siuan will offer, or be asked to, solve the problem of the missing sisters who went to the Black Tower. This will get her back into Eg's good graces. Her inquiries will be stonewalled.

3. Siuan will arrange a semi-private meeting among Egwene (with Silviana) and Rand (along with Logain, Damer, Narishma and Karlin) in or very near Tar Valon to discuss the missing sisters. Rand will "feel Egwene's anger" and he will apologize. Logain will be tasked with working with the Red sisters, under Silviana's direction, to get the sisters back. This will lead to the successful assault that will kill a bunch of the evil Ashaman and force the rest to flee to Shayul Ghul.

4. During this meeting or shortly thereafter, Damer will fully heal Siuan and Leane.

more to come.

Rob
Alice Arneson
20. Wetlandernw
Happy times! Thanks again, Torie!

To ALL: May I suggest that in the interests of keeping this thread functional, we post the worst of our frivolity on the reread threads and keep this one for actually talking about TofM? I cerainly enjoy the frivoling, but not enough to sacrifice yet another thread to it... :)

Predictions: I know had some more that I posted on various threads, but here's one to start with.

I predict that the Prologue of TofM will include Graendal in her place at Natrin's Barrow, just after sending Ramshalan back to Rand, thinking back on killing Asmodean. Then she gets wiped, with slightly less opportunity to comment than Asmodean had.
j p
21. sps49
Give it up, Wet; Graendal SO didn't do it! :)

I do expect Continued Awesomeness from the next book.
Brandon D
22. Ishmayl
@19 RobMRobM

I like the first three and how they link together, but I don't think #4 will happen. I believe Siuan and Leane's roles have changed now, and they are not meant to be the uber-powerful Aes Sedai they once were.

My own predictions:

1 - Galad and Perrin will "talk out" some of the issues with the Whitecloaks believing Perrin to be a Darkfriend. Morgase will probably have a major hand in helping convince Galad. After this, someone will say something about, "Maybe someone should let Elayne and Gawyn know you're alive? I heard Gawyn kinda went cuckoo, after all."

2 - Moraine and Rand will meet back up, at which point Rand will break down in tears (again?) and the list in his head will evaporate when he realizes that though people have died for him and for the world, their deaths are made meaningless if he allows them to hold him back from doing his duty.

3 - Egwene will "show her anger" to Rand, who will not back down, but will instead say something to the effect of, "I understand why you're angry, we have to work together. Get over yourself. And stop comparing your time in a cramped cell to my time of being bent over myself in a box. Yeah, I heard about that, you uppity bitch." (I wish? Meh, I guess the first part of #3 is reasonable)

4 - Pevara and Co. (possibly with the help of Logain?) will force a successful coup at the Black Tower, ousting and defeating a good chunk of Taim's followers. Taim himself and several others will escape to Shayul Ghul.

5 - Tuon will somehow (accidentally) reveal she can channel, either from stress or being collared, and Seanchan will be shaken to its foundation. Rand offers a truce with the Seanchan to the effect of, "you may keep the Aes Sedai you have collared, but none shall be collared again. Instead, channelers will have a place of honor in your society, being part of the Blood."

6 - Elayne, Faile, some Seafolk woman, and especially Egwene will all say something so obnoxiously annoying that I wish they would just die.

I obviously took some liberty with the actual conversations that will be had, but I think that's the general idea of what will happen.
Ron Garrison
23. Man-0-Manetheran
How cool is this? With cover art from the book no less! Thanks all.

I predict: RJ had a reason why Lan's bond has never passed to Nynaeve. When Moiraine is rescued from Finnland there's going to be some issues for Lan. Moiraine will keep the bond; Nyn will keep the husband, and all will fight together in the Blight. Either that, or they are all going to perform the "Fisch Schlapping Song." Ironically it turns out to be the lost Song everyone has been searching for.

(Sorry wetlandernw, I just can't keep a good frival down.)

edit: Corrected the spelling of the Song for those who didn't get the hilarious reference.
a a-p
24. lostinshadow
@Tek
I think Galad has to stay as the head of the Whitecloaks because they respect and listen to him and he's just about the only one who can convince them to fight at the Dragon Reborn's side along with wolves, witches and male channelers. So "it's the right thing to do".

@Wet - that's one prediction I hope will come through just so that we can get over these two debates.

regarding Rand being more like LTT after tGS. To me at least, that would defeat the purpose of the whole stor really. I like Rand, not LTT. I want to see Rand win, LTT has already has his chance. I viewed the "merging" at the end of tGS as ok we can finaly put LTT to rest and Rand can get on with it. Of course I've only read tGS once...
Bill Reamy
25. BillinHI
Oh, No! Not *another* WoT thread to try to keep up with!! Ordinarily I wouldn't bitch and moan about it, but wife and I are heading out for a long trip (5 1/2 weeks) next Sunday and while I will have internet access most of the time, there will be lots of RL intruding on my WoT time. We will be doing two cruises back-to-back in the Mediterranean: Athens to Venice, then Venice to Barcelona. Lots of old (new to us, though) places to see!!!

I'll try to keep up as best as I can. And, yes, thanks to Torie, Irene & co for a shiny new toy!

As for hopes/predictions: most of mine have already been articulated.
Barry T
26. blindillusion
Tek: ::waves::

Nym's are constructs, check. But who constructed them? Out of what? The Ogier have such affinity for the land, trees, even time. They Sing wood into shapes, for heaven's sake. I think they might be a good piece of clay to work with. Just a thought.....

As far as I can tell from what we’ve seen thus far, the Nym are exactly what they appear to be: Beings constructed of plants and given sentient life. How that happens might be something a new and (hopefully) improved Rand can given some intel on. As for the Ogier’s affinity to the Land and they’re ability to Sing: natural abilities, much like Channeling.

Re: Galad: Do you think he'll remain at the head of the Whitecloaks after he finds out his mother is alive? If Egs bonds Gawyn as her warder, Elayne will be needing a First Prince of Andor. Galad? That would be funny, given her dislike of him! Will Galad marry Berelain and rule somewhere himself?

I see Galad remaining at the helm of the Whitecloaks. He is too honorable to do anything else. He challenged Valda because of the rape/assault of Morgase, not her death. He joined the WCs and now leads them. He’s not leaving anytime soon as the Oath to join is for life. I can see Gawyn retaining his duties to Andor (barring he doesn’t kill Rand (hi Terez). As for Berelain and Galad…I hope he begins their “courtship” by completely ignoring her.

I'm looking forward to the Rand reveal about his lineage! How will Galad react to his half-brother? Elayne to the fact that Rand is indeed royal? Rand's friends to his royal blood? I do hope Elaida finds out how completely misinterpreted her Prediction was! LOL.

You know, I don’t see that reveal happening in the series proper. There’s just a little too much going on right now to involve that little fiasco in the plot itself. But if it does happen I’m sure Galad will perform his duties as an older brother (whatever he decides those happen to be..and be sure…they’ll be the “right” thing). If that reveal is shown in any way, I’m hoping it involves Elaida.

How will Rand be different after his "integration" on DM. Will he be more like LTT? How will everyone react to him with a different persona? If it changes...

I hope we see enough of Rand in ToM to get a clear-cut picture of what the “integration” made of him.

-RobM

Serious ToM predictions (for a change):

1. Bloodknives will kill eight sisters (plus or minus two), including Beldeine, before rooted out and killed. Karlin will be on the warpath until the Bloodknives are found and killed.

One wish for ToM: Katerine gets sucker-punched by the Bloodknives.

3. Siuan will arrange a semi-private meeting among Egwene (with Silviana) and Rand (along with Logain, Damer, Narishma and Karlin) in or very near Tar Valon to discuss the missing sisters. Rand will "feel Egwene's anger" and he will apologize. Logain will be tasked with working with the Red sisters, under Silviana's direction, to get the sisters back. This will lead to the successful assault that will kill a bunch of the evil Ashaman and force the rest to flee to Shayul Ghul.

I hope something like this happens, i.e. I hope the whole Black Tower thread gets wrapped up in ToM.

4. During this meeting or shortly thereafter, Damer will fully heal Siuan and Leane.

I hope this happens, but would Siuan go for it?

Hmm, it takes an "other than re-read" thread to make me build a wall....
LewsTherin
27. winterking
Sigh. Wonderful. Darrell K. "Can't Draw My Way Out Of A Paper Bag" Sweet has done it again.

It shouldn't have been that hard--three heroes, opening the Tower of Ghenji. Simple composition, minimal characters, no trollocs to mess up. And as far as I can tell, he didn't do too badly on the characters.

But for crying out loud, that tower! Time and time again, the Tower of Ghenji is described in the books, and it's not "just your average masonry tower in the woods, like it was built by anybody, with cracks and crevices and seams and things." The Tower of Ghenji is a tall, seamless tower of gleaming metal. That's what sets it apart from other towers. That's why Mat remembers what it is, where it is.

It's a simple detail, and it should've been easy to add to the painting. But I guess that would be expecting too much.

Prediction: When I finally get my hands on the book, I will be even more disappointed by the jacket art.
Barry T
28. blindillusion
- Prediction:

Thom won't be the one who marks the Tower with the bronze knife.

Sorry Wetlander. I just had to throw one frivolous post out there.
Alice Arneson
29. Wetlandernw
Man-o-Manetheran @23 - That's not the kind of frivol I was talking about. A good prediction-related frivol is fine (IMO) - I just meant the stuff where we say things like "Hi, everyone, I don't have anything to say." There's nothing wrong with them, but I personally thought it might be nice to do those elsewhere, where we don't have a reason to keep the thread functional for several months. I'd hate to break our shiny new thread before TofM even hits the shelves...

For example, I predict that only the love of the book in general will prevent at least one person from throwing it across the room at something a Windfinder does. :)

BillinHI - Sounds wonderful!! Hope you have a great time.

All - I'm having all manner of fun reading these predictions!! I might even have a few serious ones to propose, if no one else beats me to them. But this is seriously cool, to collect them all in one place. I'd strongly urge anyone who posted predictions on the open thread to repost them here.
LewsTherin
30. scimystic
So, why did Verin choose that time and place to reveal herself? I think maybe she was sent to give Egwene the tea and kill her. This was an order she couldn't refuse so she used that last chance to make sure her life's work was passed on. Why was Verin so assured that Egwene would be made Amyrlin? Did she maybe weave a few compulsions to bring that about? And why was the message 'wait' put into the soup? Was that message intended for Verin, to keep her from poisoning Egwene right then for some reason? Or was it a reassurance for Egwene that her friends were trying to help her?
Totally agree that Pevara is the great hope for getting Taim and his minions sorted out.
I think the Seanchan are going to finally realize what Rand Land is up against with TG and become allies. I could see them as being the ones to really take on Demandred's army coming out of Shara.
Julian Augustus
31. Alisonwonderland
Ishmayl @ 22:
4 - Pevara and Co. (possibly with the help of Logain?) will force a successful coup at the Black Tower, ousting and defeating a good chunk of Taim's followers. Taim himself and several others will escape to Shayul Ghul.

I doubt the part about Taim escaping to Shayol Ghul. Egwene's "dream" clearly shows suggests strongly that Logain will kill Taim and take over the BT.
Eric Neal
32. ewneal
From the cover art it is pretty assured that Mat will be the focus of this book. He Thom, and Noall will go to the tower of Jenji to rescue Moraine. I am guessing that Noall may not survive the visit.

I believe that in the TOM we will see relatively little of Rand in the storyline. But when we do see him he will fulfill the prophesy of uniting the North and South and the East and West.

1) Rand will return to the Borderland Armies and convince them to return to the north to guard the blight from invasion (perhaps under Lan's leadership... Would be totally cool!)

2) Rand will also meet again with Tuon to form an alliance with the Seanchan. I believe he will gain the advantage in the negotiation over Tuon when it is discovered that she can channel and she come to him this time around. Perhaps the Tower of Midnight in Seanchan will play a role in that the seeker who knows that those who can wear the ad'am can also channel will come into play.

3)Rand/Moraine and Mat/Tuon will be reunited. Events that will lead to Tuon and Rand meeting a second time will be that Mat and Moraine will advise the two of them and facilitate a their meeting and forming a treaty.

So many more thoughts, and so little time to write more...

Kudos and many thanks to all of the previous posters for their ideas and insights into the storyline as it continues to unfold in TOM!
Eric Neal
33. ewneal
@ scimystic:

I believe the note was from Laras, and although I don't know exactly how, I think she is MUCH more that she seems and will have a VERY significant role to play either in TOM or AMOL.

An invading army from Shara... now that would be timely for the shadow... most of the Aiel are scattered elsewhere. Maybe the Shaido would get back in time to be wiped out by them.

Thanks for your post!
LewsTherin
34. A.V Willis
As noted earlier Mat will face off against the Finns. Before he does that however, he'll have to go to Camelyn and fullfill Verin's dying wish. My prediction is that she got wind somehow of his OP Immunity, possibly through the Darkfriend grapevine, and is going to use it to have him take on the whole gorram Black Tower single handedly. Before he does that however, he's going to have, what was it? 5 days of free time? While he has that however, he isn't going to be sitting idly by playing snakes and foxes, that much, he's going to be interacting with Elayne and Birgitte. This is going to lead to them taking a tour of the band of the red hand for the first time. Elayne just finished fighting a civil war- one she barely won incidentally, my guess is she's going to take one look at the innovations the band is spearheading- the crossbow cranks especially since gunpowder is still considered unproven-and her water will break. This will lead her to try and fenagle her way into getting the designs which will ultimately lead to the aforementioned dice game.

As far as perrin is concerned...
Morgase's identity will be revealled, most likely by Galad by sheer mistake. This will lead to a rift even further in the children between those who are willing to do anything to fight the shadow and/or seanchan, and those who still consider perrin a vile darkfriend. If you look at Galad's list of BFFs, i.e, Byar, Bornhald, etc, it's going to be an interesting conflict. Ultimately though, the alliance will lead to the Seanchan being beaten back and Manetheren being ressurected. Somewhere along the lines Perrin is going to come to grips with his inner wolf and take on Slayer in the ultimate showdown. How do I know this? because it's in Amazon's book description.
As for Rand...
Sorry he's going to be a no show. The Gathering Storm was his time to shine, (or become a sucking chest wound of blah, depending on his perspective) hence why Mat and Perrin took a back seat in it. We'll probably see him briefly for one, maybe two chapters, but the next real bit of resolution we'll get from him will be in AMOL.
Birgit
35. birgit
One way or another I want more AoL.

Maybe in Aviendha's WO test.
Can Loial create Nym by Treesinging (maybe with some help from Rand and Avi channeling after Avi learned how in the History ter'angreal?).

What will Gawyn do when he learns that Galad is Rand's brother and Elayne is pregnant with Rand's kids?
Galad and Berelain might rule Amador under the Seanchan.
Ron Garrison
36. Man-0-Manetheran
an old prediction:

"he who is dead but lives"

"And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighted down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time."
(from Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon. Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

"There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time." - Chapter 1, paragraph 1, The Eye of the World

Rand will die at TG, but die in victory over the DO. Though dead, he still lives to be spun out by the Wheel. As it began, so shall it end - except "there are neither beginnings nor endings...it was a beginning."

And that, my friends, is how I believe the series will 'end.'
Birgit
37. birgit
double post
Marcus W
38. toryx
Thanks to everyone who made this new thread happen. It's always nice to have a dedicated space for various WoT postery.

Predictions:

1. The Tower of Ghenji plot will finally happen. But I expect Moraine's rescue will be the very last thing that happens in the book and we'll be left hanging until AMoL to find out her actual state of being.

2. The Galad and Perrin Meeting will take place wherein Galad *gasp* finds out Morgase is still alive, Morgase finds out she was manipulated by a Forsaken and makes everyone promise not to tell Elayne she's still alive. Because, you know, there's always gotta be secrets.

3. In the Tower of Ghenji Noal will be the third feller; he'll unlock the secrets about his past and Ishmael manipulations. I half expect Mat to learn the truth about him and whatever he knows as Noal's dying.

4. Gawyn will STILL not be heading back to Andor to assume his responsibilities yet.

5. Elayne will be short-tempered and irritable and blame Rand for her state at least three times and still insist that he not be told about the babies. Because, you know, there's gotta be thrice-damned secrets!

5.5. Mat will make Olver put away Fox and Snakes and teach him D&D or some variation thereof, a process that involves elaborate character development, making me tear out my hair and declaim, "This is not Mat!"

Edit: I keep getting Gawyn and Galad mixed up today for some reason.
James Hogan
39. Sonofthunder
I predict that Rand will come back to Far Madding and see Hurin and have a laugh with him before sitting down the Borderlander rulers and giving them a Talking To. And then sending them to the Blight where they belong. And promising them he'll join them in time for TG.

I also predict that Gawyn will die in a foolish attack on Rand, at a meeting between the Amyrlin and the Dragon Reborn. Gawyn will pop out of the woodwork and wave his sword around before Alivia roasts Gawyn. Egwene will shake her head at the stubbornness of men. And then start crying because she bonded him right before she died. And then Rand will know her anger.
Eric Neal
40. ewneal
Sonofthunder @39

I had postulated that Rand would go to meet with the Borderlanders as well (Post 32)... I believe you are correct that Rand will have some face time with Hurin. To go even further when Hurin rode against the Seanchan at Falame I believe it was Arthur Hawking who invited him to ride with them as a standard bearer and told him that someday he might join their numbers. Hurin and Rand bonded way back then, and it would be more than fitting that he would figure prominently in the story line by riding with the Dragon Reborn once again into battle during TG.

btw, Hurin is one, if not at the top the list, of my favorite secondary characters from the entire series.
James Jones
41. jamesedjones
25 BillinHI

No sympathy. :P

22 Ishmayl

No 3: Love it!
Thomas Keith
42. insectoid
Had trouble finding this place... silly contests!

Thanks for the new thread, Torie! ::waves:: Great predictions, all!

Cross-posted from the Wot OT (something non-frivolous to appease Wetlander):
(Responding to Subwoofer and Terez)
I've always loved the "Moiraine the White" theories... indeed, it would be a great parallel to LotR. Yes, white hair would be iffy, but dressed in white might work for her. And then they'll hold a big Council of Moiraine in Tar Valon. And then open a can of badass in Tarmon Gai'don. ;)

Blind @26: That's a lot of red... I see Sub beat you to 13 (but 2*13=26... and you got 1313 on the OT, nice!).

Bzzz™.
Henry Loose
43. schrodinger
Ahhh... new space. Its the same as the old space (but much cleaner!) Now. Into the theoryness.
1. Mat arrives at Caemelyn and gets production on the dragons going. With all the resources at hid disposal, he finds some information about the ToG and formulates a plan. Elayne finds out who he is married to and goes into a pregnancy induced rage. Mat being Mat, he somehow finds a way to calm her down, at least until he mentions that he had her in captivity and then let her go.
2. Mat finds out who Noal actually is, but only when he gets into the ToG.
3. Logain goes to tBT and Kicks. Some. Ass. Taim gets spanked so hard that he goes crying to Moridin, who, in a moment of pure insanity, kills him.
4. The bloodknives kill a few sisters, but a sister eventually figures out a weave that detects some kind of resonance with their rings and they are found and killed.
5. Rand goes back to Tear and (sadly) tells Cadsuane that she can be his counselor again. He and Min have a makeup snuggle.
6. Rand et al. go to Tar Valon, where Egwene gets all snippy with him, He tells her his plan and she goes 'oh, sorry about that'.
7. Caemelyn becomes a mustering ground, and all the armies converge there, Rand goes bugeyes at learning that Elayne is pregnant, Morgase does the same thing, Gawyn does the same thing, then tries to kill Rand.
8. Ahvienda comes back a wise one, gets together with Min and Elayne, and they tell Rand he is marrying them now. Babies are made.
9. Mat, Moiraine and Thom get back to Caemelyn (Noal having died in the ToG) to find all this going on. Rand does a happy dance upon learning Moiraine is alive, and Cadsuane now has to share the position of counselor.
10. Book ends with Lan doing some crazy MOA at Tarwin's Gap, holding back the initial invasion force. However, he has to retreat because the second wave would wipe him out completely. The stage is set for Tarmon Gaidon.
Eric Neal
44. ewneal
Question:

Has Cadsuane outlived her usefulness???

Follow-up question:

If so does she get killed out in TOM?

If the answers to both of the above are 'yes' I would postulate that she goes out protecting Rand from an 'inside attack', perhaps from a Wise One...
James Hogan
45. Sonofthunder
ewneal@40,

Aha, so you did! And I like your prediction in 44 - I think Cadsuane may go out with a blaze of glory this book.

One further prediction: Berelain and Faile will become true friends as Galad swears himself and the Children to Perrin's command.
Tricia Irish
46. Tektonica
Lost@24:

I didn't mean to indicate that Rand would become LTT and lose his personality. I am hoping that he will be calmer, more knowledgeable, trust his decisions, be a better diplomat. He will have confidence in himself! Calm, firm, quiet, commanding, confidence. **Fingers crossed**

BillinHI@25:

Have a wonderful time! But don't expect sympathy because you can't keep up!;-) Jealousy won't permit that!

Blind@26:

Rand revealing his lineage.....we need a few moments of lightness here! The reactions and dismay could be quite hilarious. I too hope Elaida finds out!

Winterking@27: LOL. I agree. And isn't it out on a kind of praire? Visible for miles? Not in the woods.

Scimystic@30:
So, why did Verin choose that time and place to reveal herself? I think maybe she was sent to give Egwene the tea and kill her. This was an order she couldn't refuse so she used that last chance to make sure her life's work was passed on. OMG...never thought of that! Interesting......

Birgit@35: Good ideas on Rand/Loial/Avi creating Nym.

I've been wondering what's going to happen with Gawyn. If Egs bonds him, and he's the first prince of Andor and then he kills Rand, as Terez predicts, there are going to be a couple of really ticked off ladies that he's attached to:
His sister, Rand's wife, pregnant with his children, and the Amyrlin who needs Rand for TG and is one of his oldest friends. I think Gawyn would be persona non grata in that case. I'm really hoping he doesn't do something THAT stupid...although personally, I think he is that dumb and hot headed.

I like Sonofthunder@39 prediction better. Gawyn dies! yay!

Mano-O@36: That gave me chills.

ewneal@40: Hurin is owed an apology by Rand. Along with a few other people, namely Tam, his father. I predict a Tam and Rand reunion. Tam stays on with Rand as a military advisor....and to look after his son....who needs someone he totally trusts at his side.
LewsTherin
47. aross07
Rand will become saddlesore, waiting for Towers of Midnight to end so that he can spring into action once again. Unfortunately, as a result he develops a life threatening hemorrhoid. Nynaeve is frustrated - the One Power won't touch it - healing doesn't work. So Nynaeve spends Towers of Midnight sniffing and snorting and pulling her braid.

To save us all from more cliched braid pulling, the creator lops off the stupid braid while she sleeps, and fixes her deviated septum to boot. Now, when angry, Nynaeve is forced to use her words.

In the end, someone from the Academy in Camelyn invents Preparation H, saving humanity and many other guys in the bargain.

Mat, Thom, and Noal have a job - and the Tower of Ghenjei awaits. Unfortunately, so does a shopping list a mile long and it's not like Mat can just roll on up to Costco and get what he needs. No dummies, there isn't Sam's Club either. And yes, sorry, no Whole Foods. Nope. No Trader Joe's.

So how does he get what he needs you ask?

I don't know. Beats the crap out of me...

Personally, if he just gets to Ghenjei before the Towers of Midnight concludes, I would call it a friggin miracle.

Perrin also has his work cut out. Apparently he's learning to juggle big things like queens and whitecloaks and whatnots. I knew he was strong before, but I have to say I'm pretty impressed.

His wife isn't quite so shrill thank goodness, which will help his concentration.

Egwene doesn't really have much to do in Towers of Midnight, but she's the only hero who's still a virgin and is feeling a little awkward answering those kinds of questions at college. Gawyn, likewise, is a virgin. It's sizing up to be a beautiful scene until they realize that neither of them have a clue about lovemaking. Instead it ends up being a fumbling mess, and more painful to watch (read) than Rand counting off his two thousand dead women that he knows by name (blah, blah, blah).

Elayne decides to live a little and go clubbing with Mat and Birgitte. Of course, it always happens this way... Too much, too soon, and Elayne is the next tabloid darling. Soon her weight begins to yo-yo like Lindsay Lohan's and her hair color changes as often.

Fortunately, an intervention saves her life. She becomes a born again... whatever they are in the Wheel of Time, and was last seen selling flowers at Camelyn airport.

Aviendha goes into the columns and learns the song. Unfortunately the song is Macarthur Park and she gets booed off the stage.

But it gets worse - she auditions for American Idol (or whatever version holds true for the Wheel of Time) and her audition is actually worse than William Hung's. The judges are just mean - Rand Jackthorne says, "Whoa dog. That was pretty bad." and Paulina Abdoul gives her some meaningless encouragement, "You're so pretty! I just love you!" The worst is Simeon Cowheil, who tells poor Aviendha, "You are the worst singer since the Breaking. Please don't quit being a Wise One."

She returns to the Wise Ones, though unable to escape the feeling that her dreams have been ruthlessly crushed.
T C
48. Freelancer
jadelollipop@2

Tuon can channel, she admitted to Mat that it would be possible for her to learn, but that she simply wouldn't. Of course, she will.

As for not visiting Seanchan proper, the first paragraph of Chapter 1, the memories/legend/myth/wind paragraph, is on Seanchan land.


SPC@6

It would be harder for Carlinya to gain raven tattoos if she was taken in the Tower raid, since she would be made damane.


BillinHI@25

Okay, bucko. You, complaining, while travelling the Med? So not allowed. Have fun, get a tan, think not on WoT.


ewneal@33

Laras will be important. Maybe not as IMPORTANT as you are hoping for, but important all the same. She is the one hiding the Horn of Valere. Perhaps she knows, perhaps she does not.
Krit Petty
49. bgrishinko
@blindillusion

I think that Galad will in fact become Elayne's First Prince of Andor AND stay the head of the Whitecloaks. I mean, Morgase did legally - while still officially Queen - make a treaty with the Whitecloaks. Sure it was under duress, whatever, still... It would mean that everything that happened to Morgase with the Whitecloaks wasn't just a crap-shoot for her. The Whitecloaks would be recommissioned into less a Inquisition parallel, and become a Knight's Templar parallel (say what you will about their role in history... ignoring Assassins Creed, cause yeah...).

Anyway, that would be a really good way to tie the Children of the Light into the final big bang.
Tricia Irish
50. Tektonica
aross07@47:

Now that was some good long frivol! LOL. Very funny.

bgrishinko@49:

I like that theory! Morgase did make treaties with the Whitecloaks, I forgot! Did she make them before she whispered her renouncement to the windowpane? I think she did. That would be a great way to declaw the Whities and get rid of the questioners and transform them into a Knights Templar thingy like you said.
(And Gawyn bites it....sorry Wetlander, I've tried to understand him, but meh.)

This scenario would also give reason/meaning for having put us through that story line. Ug.
Thomas Keith
51. insectoid
aross07 @47: BAHAHAhahaha!! Hilarious stuff!

(Because I am allowed one frivolous comment per post per day...)

Bzzz™.
LewsTherin
52. AndrewB
I predict that Egwene will be in danger of being killed by one of the Bloodknives. Just as she is about to die, Gawyn will kill the Bloodknive and she will bond him as her Warder. This will fufill the dream/prophecy that if a door closes, Egwene will die.

Also, it will be revealed that Evellyan (sp?) -- the missing Gray Sitter -- was killed by a Bloodknife.

RobMRobM @19 -- I understand why you think that Beldeine will die at the hands of a Bloodknife (see Min's viewing at the end of TSG). However, how do you think she will be placed at the Tower to be killed by a Bloodknive. She is presently with Cads; not at the White Tower.

I sincerely hope the only Bloodkinves will be found at the White Tower.

Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
Rob Munnelly
53. RobMRobM
@52. Recall that Beldeine stormed off in a huff after Cads supported Min's position towards the end of TGS. She'll head to the reunified tower and get sliced/diced. Query whether that will happen on her way in or only after she reports. (Recall that Beldeine was Keeper in Eg's Acceptatron dream in TDR but the two have never had a relationship. Interesting if they actually began interacting before the hammer came down.) I'm guessing, however, she'll get caught on the way in - EDIT: likely in the ToM Prologue.
T C
54. Freelancer
I predict that you are all going to be VERY surprised. (Oh, well, me too, it's not like I have any inside info)

Galad will reveal Morgase. I am so looking forward to this, because I called it on WoTMania after reading Winter's Heart. True, I had expected the Whitecloaks to still be under Valda while fleeing the Seanchan, and have to fight with Perrin's forces before things settled down, but Galad was certain to run into his step-mom as things were going.

This brings up a question. Is Morgase on Rand's list, and if not, why not? He certainly blamed himself for her "death", by not dealing with Rahvin soon enough. Name on the list or not, Rand has piles of personal good news coming, that Morgase and Moiraine are both still kicking. Well, as good as news can get that you will have to deal with a Queen of Andor as your mother-in-law, and that the first Aes Sedai to meddle with you will now be competing with the latest one. Good times.

RE: Beldeine. Perfectly Jordanian mixture from Egwene's Acceptitron experience of events which did come true, and those which did not. She is indeed the Amyrlin Seat of the White Tower without having held the Oath Rod (though she took the Oaths immediately after being raised), it was Elaida who had usurped the Amyrlin Seat, and Elaida intended to bring Rand in captivity to the Tower. On the didn't happen side, Beldeine is not her Keeper (and not going to be), Rand never reached Tar Valon, and Elaida knew that she could not gentle the Dragon Reborn. Interesting.

I may be alone, but I would really enjoy knowing what Elayne experienced in her Accepted test. Come on, admit it, you want to know how horrible she could be.

More to follow.
Sharon E.
55. Sulin
Feh! I'm late again.

Predictions- I think (hope) we will see more of Rand than just a chapter or two. He still has a lot of work to do before TG.

I really hope there's a scene where Cads and Moiraine meet face to face. :D

More to follow....dinner awaits
Sydo Zandstra
56. Fiddler
Short comment because it's bedtime.

@Free:

Rand already knows about Morgase being alive. Tam told him in tGS. :)


Edit:
It's a hunch, but somehow I suspect Suffa is going to be instrumental in showing sul'dam to be able to channel.
Justin Levitt
57. TyranAmiros
Mat and the Tower of Ghenjei:
The trick is not to lie. Bring items that are literally not fire, iron, and music. but yet are. So Mat needs:
Fire to Blind--matchsticks
Music to Daze--Thom's voice
Iron to Bind--Cuendillar (made entirely of iron, yet not actually iron)
Mat gets a chain of cuendillar when he first visits Elayne in Caemlyn. In exchange, he agrees to allow the Band to help protect Andor while away at the Tower.
Verin's letter tells Mat something about both the Tower and the Horn (maybe where it's hidden). It also talks about his destiny (okay, I really don't know what it might contain).

The Battle of Caemlyn:
This will be the climax of the book. It will be a perfect storm: a Seanchan attack (after finding out that one of the marath'damane holds the throne) and a shadowspawn attack (possibly led by Demandred/the Black Tower).
These groups will unknowingly be working together against the good guys--the Band of the Red Hand, Elayne's Queen's Guard, Logain's faction, and Perrin's army.
Mat (with Moiraine) will show up just when it looks like all is lost and convince the Seanchan they're working for the Bad Guys, which leads to the tide turning.
I think Rand actually dies in the battle, possibly killed by Alivia in a scene remeniscent of Egwene's second Accepted test. However, Moiraine will inform us that Rand had to die in order to succeed in the last battle. Rand's death begins the healing of the land.
I think this is the real purpose of the Horn of Valere (and why Rand couldn't blow it): It will be used to bring Rand back at the last battle. Elayne will use the bond she did on Brigitte to take him out of TAR. This also explains Min's viewing that Avi's kids are different. They are Rand 2.0's, not Rand 1.0's.

The Borderlands:
1. It will turn out that Rand did the right thing not following Hurin into Far Madding. The Borderlander army is being manipulated by Darkfriends who wanted to capture Rand.
2. We will finally visit Arafel and Kandor--the only countries we haven't seen. Both Lan's army as well as the Domani Rand sent under Ituralde will fight major battles in the cities like Tyr and Sidonia. I also think there may be an earthquake in Sheinar (this may happen in AMOL).
3. Nynaeve will convince Egwene to send a massive force of Aes Sedai as well as part of Bryne's army to support Lan and the Borderlands, thus righting the wrong when the Tower did not act fast enough when Malkier fell.
Rob Munnelly
58. RobMRobM
More serious predictions:

1. Tam will recognize Maighdin but will not "out" her. Kari-Morgase connection and Tam as source of Morgase knowledge of Two Rivers speech in EOTW will come to light in private conversations between them.

2. Berelain will be sent to Whitecloaks to warn them about approaching Shaido (rather than let them be ambushed) and will fall in love with Galad on sight.

3. Perrin troops and Whitecloaks will cooperate to beat the remaining Shaido that haven't already left for the Waste, elminating them as a threat in Central Randland. Tallanvor will die protecting Morgase. Tam will save her, flashing blademaster skills on camera for the first time. Tam will be a comfort to Morgase in her grief.

4. Galad will tell Berelain he loves her too but will say his duty to fight at TG with his men must come first. This will frustrate Berelain to no end but she will respect it.

5. Berelain will be in charge of sending refugees to their home cities/countries, letting Perrin and Faile go to Camelyn to bring Morgase home and find Rand. (Faile won't shave or kill Berelain.)

6. The Whitecloaks will be sent by travelling to Fal Dara, where they will meet up with Lan and head for Tarwin's Gap.

more to come

Rob
craig thrift
59. gagecreedlives
Galad to meet Perrin and go batshit insane when he sees Morgase serving him. Attacks Perrin. Perrin hammers him (so to speak) and its another case of a great swordsman's only loss coming from a village boy. Perrin refuses to kill Galad though which helps convince Galad that he isnt a darkfriend.

And Elyas kills Byar.
Daniel Goss
60. Beren
I honestly hope we never see Suffa again. Suffa will be a good damane and I think that's a perfect end to her story -- the one who wanted to bend all others to her will will instead be broken to another's.

As for predictions . . . Rand Travels directly from Dragonmount to Tar Valon and that story takes up about five minutes after the end of TGS. Egwene is mad, Rand is Not Mad Anymore, hilarity ensues.
Henry Loose
61. schrodinger
TyranAmiros@57

that's the best rand dying theory I've heard so far. It is both logical and uses events and prophecies from throughout the series. A very Jordanian theory.
LewsTherin
62. Novice_in_white
Apart from the usual predictions already made(Mat & Co will go to the ToG, Perrin & Co might meet Galad, Morgase will be revealed, etc), my loony predictions:

-Mat, Thom and Noal will go to the Tower of Ghenjei and will try to gamble and deal with the finns as if they were comming accordingly to the old agreement. Only Noal will ask questions and have answers, after that the deceit will be broken. But as a result, all of Noal emotions and memories sucked up by finns will be incorporated by Mat. And obviously, Noal dies to redeem himself from what he did whem he was a ´tool´ of the shadow.

-Somehow, Rand meet Galad. He doesn´t tell him they are brothers, but Rand sends Galad and the WhiteCloaks to protect Carhien, where Galad is to be crowned King. After all, he is a Damodred and I never understood why Elaine would have precedence over him for the Sun Throne. There, he meets Berelain, who will became his queen, after some reluctance from him.

-I hope to see, don´t know if it is going to happen in TOM, the redemption of the Shaido, when, one year and a day after the Battle with Perrin and the Seanchan, all of them made properties will rise and go. Which will not happen without a fight, therefore landing a mighty blow on the Empire from within. That way, surely all the Shaido will desappear from earth.

-I also hope to see the redemption of the Red, when the sisters who went by their own will to bond Ashaman find out they bonded the Darker Ashamans and will have to fight their ´warders´ and kill them herselves.

-But what I really hope to see is that the Sea Folk are tripped somehow and their contracts with the Aes Sedai made nule. I will love to see them pay as novices. Including the Mistresses of Ships, it would be great.

-Finally, I predict that TOM will end in a climax, when the three friends from the begging finally meet again. Just before Tarmon Gaidon
T C
63. Freelancer
TyranAmiros@57

Picking a nit here:
Elayne will use the bond she did on Brigitte to take him out of TAR.
Elayne did not take Birgitte out of T'a'R via the bond. Moghedien ripped her out bodily with a weave. Elayne bonded her to provide the supplemental strength/stamina given through the bond in order to keep her alive. Also, there is a collision of ideas between the Horn calling Rand out of T'a'R, and him being taken out bodily. Unless you mean that the Horn calls him out for Tarmon Gai'don, and then Nynaeve goes into T'a'R afterward, and pulls him out to continue living his life.
Brandon D
64. Ishmayl
I predict that everyone who thinks that, for some reason, Rand won't make much of an appearance in this book, is delusional. He may not be center stage like tGS, but come on - He's the Dragon Reborn in the Penultimate Book of a 14 Book Series - Dude is going to be around.
Justin Levitt
65. TyranAmiros
schrodinger@61 and Freelancer@63:

Thanks!

My bad on the Brigitte stuff; don't have TFoH with me. The point stands, I think--we have seen a soul being taken out of TAR. I'm pretty sure Nynaeve, if no one else, could manage it. I suspect that much of the Last Battle will take place in TAR, if for no other reason than the Bore was probably drilled in/through TAR and it probably must be sealed in TAR as well. It's possible that Rand is called via the Horn then goes back into TAR to seal the Bore.

On the theory in general, it's a combination of a lot of questions about the ending I think all circle each other. I have a full post on the theory at the Thirteenth Depository forums but here's the summary:

In PoD we're shown that everyone is simply plaing Moridin's game. How can Rand hope to defeat someone playing both sides of the board? Rand gives us the answer in TGS: make them think you're playing their game then do something unexpected. We don't know a lot about Moridin's plans, but we know one thing: he wants Rand alive. Why is he so insistant on this bit?

The answer is simple, and it comes right back around to the Fisher King and Jesus parallels to Rand's character: Rand cannot win in his current, injured state. Even ignoring the revelation on Dragonmount, if Rand fought the Last Battle tomorrow, he would lose. In order to succeed he must be whole. But how does that happen?

The answer is taking literally Rand's answer to the question he posed to the Finn: "To live, you must die". Often this has been interpreted as "in order for the Pattern to survive, you must die facing the DO at Shayol Ghul." But if Rand dies then, how can he fulfill all of Min's visions, such as his kids by Aviendha? I think it's more likely that the death comes before the Last Battle and we should be looking at that quote literally--how can and when and why should Rand die.
john mullen
66. johntheirishmongol
I think we will see a lot of Rand and that Perrin will join him soon. I expect we will see Fain this book as well, as he makes another try for Rand, and he finally gets killed as Rand hits him with balefire.

I also think Elayne, Min, and Avi all get together to work out marital arrangements. Rand will just say "yes honeys"

Mat will rescue Moiraine, drop her off with Rand, go with him to meet with his wife, fulfill the kneeling prophecy and they will have mad passionate sex.

Cadsuane will say something stupid to try to piss Rand off and he will laugh at her.

Ny will tell Lan he knocked her up.

Egwene will get attacked, Gawyn will save her but die in the attack. Or will try to kill Rand and Elayne will kill him. Or Fain. Or someone, but that sucker has to die!

Galad says hi mom, sees Berelain, falls for her immediately, she falls back, stupid Perrin/Faile/Berelain storyline stops but then Faileflirts with Galad and new stupid Faile/Galad/Berelain storyline begins, takes 3 books and we all tear our hair out!

Anything else you need today? lol

BTW, the challenge of keeping everything serious...never had a chance.
Barry T
67. blindillusion
Rand will come to the realization that he has to face Moridin, and not the Dark One, in the Last Battle.

1- How does one face a deity, even if one is the Dragon Reborn?
2- This pits the Creator's Champion against the Dark One's Champion.
3- Now that Rand has ascended above his Horizon he will be mentally prepared to realize that he cannot face the Dark One itself, but that he must find the Shadow's Champion.
4- Now that his mental issues were wiped away on Dragonmount he will finally key into the fact that he knows the Shadow's Champion.
5- I can see a scenario along the lines of TyranAmiros's thoughts. I too believe that by the end of this story, Rand will be whole once again.
6- Finally, I'm going to continue to stand by my theory that along with making the Bore whole, Moridin has to be completely taken out of the Pattern (killed in T'A'R) for this to be the True Last Battle.
7- Why does Moridin need to be killed in T'A'R? Well, as per the question I asked BWS at Jcon (Is there any way to be completely removed from the Pattern?) we know the only way to be removed from the Pattern is the Wolf Dream. Is there anyone out there who thinks the Wolf Dream is something other than T'A'R?

---So, need to without doubt remove an enemy from the Pattern? Make your way to the World of Dreams. Dangerous but effective.... Could also be the main reason the Wise One's have such a dread of going into the Dream in the flesh. Somehow they know you risk your very existence.

edit: 6+7=13.
Rob Munnelly
68. RobMRobM
Blind - Interesting point. I remain of the opinion that "A Memory of Light" refers to Moridin rather than to Rand. This meshes well with your theory. Mori will come to the light and take himself out of the pattern, thereby re-sealing the Dark One for good.

R
Alice Arneson
69. Wetlandernw
Not that y'all don't already know this, but... Lan, Elayne, Perrin, Mat and Aviendha have some catching up to do before they're in the same time frame as Rand, Nynaeve and Egwene as of the end of TGS. Just in case you're curious, we haven't seen them in first-person since:

Lan - nearly 60 days ago
Elayne - about 45 days ago
Perrin - about 40 days ago
Mat - about 30 days ago
Aviendha - about 20 days ago

It's been 18 days since Rand "saw" Mat, Perrin, Galad and Thom in Caemlyn.

So... for those who insist that we'll see a lot of Rand in TofM, I don't think so. The rest of them have a LOT to do. At most, I think Rand, Egwene & Nynaeve will have a few vignettes; more likely a scene or two in prologue or epilogue but not a lot in the book proper.

So what will happen in the story lines that were missing from TGS, in TofM? There are some very obvious things, of course:

Lan will mostly be riding from World's End all the way across the Borderlands, collecting Malkieri and other fighters on the way to Tarwin's Gap. I would expect to get some vignettes, at least, with a few actual scenes. I don't really expect him to have serious battle to do until nearly the end of the book.

Elayne - It's a toss-up whether we'll see her coronation, or just meet her as Queen in her first scene. I do think she'll have the crown before Morgase arrives in Caemlyn, since it's a fair few days between the pledging of 18 houses and said arrival. A few scenes, hopefully not a lot, of her consolidation of power. Once all parties arrive in Caemlyn, she'll try to give the throne back to Morgase, of course, but that's not happening. One way or another, Mat will connect Aludra with Elayne to get going on the dragon-building project.

Perrin - more detail in later guesses, but at a minimum he's got to meet up with Galad, have the big Morgase reveal, and get to Caemlyn. (Okay, that's not much of a prediction. I've got some fun visualizations, but... not tonight.) By the way, if he was in Caemlyn on May 15, what was he doing out on the Jehannah road on June 1? Prediction: After the big party in Caemlyn (delivering Morgase, Galad, etc.) I think he'll go attempt to meet with the Seanchan and create an alliance via Tylee. Alternatively, he could be going to help Galad take back (or make a treaty regarding) Amadicia. And somewhere along in there, Berelain and Galad will meet. I hope he ignores her. However... at least he'll distract her from Perrin.

So. Mat will Travel to Caemlyn, along with Aludra, his crew of AS/Warders, the Band, and Verin. Interestingly enough, the original 10 days Verin gave him (open the letter and do what it says) end with the day before Rand "sees" him in Caemlyn. The 30 days they agreed to (when Mat can leave without opening the letter) will be up the day after Rand's Dragonmount moment. Which will he do? If he opens the letter on Day 10, he could be heading to the ToG soonish. If he waits until Day 30, the ToG thing probably won't happen until the very end of the book. It's distinctly possible that he'll meet up with someone else with a Verin letter, and they'll decide to open both letters to find out what's going on. Mat can then carry out her instructions and get on with the ToG trip. I do think her letter will involve the Horn.

Aviendha - this could potentially wait until AMoL, since she's only been gone to Rhuidean about 20 days on DM Day. I'd love to see it in TofM, though. Her trip through the columns would certainly be taking place during some of the time frame to be covered by TofM.

In addition, we need to see something about the Borderlanders, lots of FS glimpses to tantalize, and something else I forgot.

Things I don't think we'll see:

Mesaana revealed
Demandred revealed
Rand doing much of anything
Egwene doing much of anything
Nynaeve doing much of anything
Janet Hopkins
70. JanDSedai
Wetlandernw Re: Perrin

Perrin is not in Camelyn when when Rand *color visions* him. Rand sees Mat and Thom riding down the street in Camelyn, then he has a separate vision of Perrin with Galad. I read that wrong the first time, too.

Rand also sees Mat in Camelyn when he is having his psychotic break/ Dragonmount epiphany. So, the question is did Mat open the letter or not? I say yes, and that Mat &co went to the the Tower of Ghenji in the interval.

Perrin's plot will take up a good portion of the stuff which was put off til the next book. But at least the PLOD will finally end (it seems like he didn't get any where in tGS-- almost 2 months after rescuing Faile, he's still on the road to civilization). I'm hoping he will get as far as Camelyn, and meet with the others.

Avienda should have been back by now. She was allowed to Gate in to just outside of Rhuidean, and it should take about 7 days to go through the Columns; certainly no more that 10 days. So why has she not come back to lay Rand's bridal wreath?

I think she got 'distracted' by Demandred's army of Sharrans. RJ/BS said no significant portions of the book would take place in Sharra, but they said nothing about the Sharrans coming to Randland. And the by-play about the Sharran culture seems a bit elaborate for a throw-away. At any rate, Demandred's Army will be revealed, at least at the end, just to set the stage for the Last Battle.

In fact, everyone will be near Camelyn at the end of this book, waiting for the attack of the Dark. Tuon knows she has to defend Randland against the Dark One, it was just a matter of precedence for her and Rand. But putting Mat/ the Prince of Ravens in charge will be something everyone will accept.

I thought we already saw Elayne's coronation in KOD. But it is only 25 days later that Verin Gates Mat to Camelyn, so I hope we will get her first weeks as Queen in a backflash, and *not* excruciating detail.

Nobody has mentioned the Ravens that Egwene dreamed for Mat. Will they come in *finnland? The eye thing is pretty clearly fore-told, but things in *finnland come in threes. Raven tattoos, lose an eye, and ? Got no ideas.

So, I'll be checking in here occasionally, but heading back to the bunker. School starts next week, so my 15 year old daughter won't be hogging the computer as much, and maybe I'll get to post more often!
Birgit
71. birgit
It would be harder for Carlinya to gain raven tattoos if she was taken in the Tower raid, since she would be made damane.

She could be stilled when she is taken and gain an important position in the Seanchan hierarchy. Then she meets someone who knows how to Heal stilling and the Seanchan will have to deal with a channeler in a position of authority. Or she could teach Tuon when she starts channeling.

I do think she'll have the crown before Morgase arrives in Caemlyn, since it's a fair few days between the pledging of 18 houses and said arrival.

Morgase arrives during the coronation and only shows herself to El when it is done. El wants to give back the crown, but Morgase tells her that she abdictated and named El as the new queen. That will increase El's support among the other houses. Morgase helps with ruling Andor when El is busy with her babies.
a a-p
72. lostinshadow
I've only read tGS once and been a while since I did a reread of the series so I haven't quite formulated the exact timing on things but

My main prediction would be that ToM will end with the siege of Caemlyn. Not sure if we will actually see how it turns out or if we will be left with a cliffhanger with armies amassing from everywhere in Randland.

But based on that, need Lan, the Borderlanders, Whitecloaks, Seanchen, all superboys and girls and both the Black and White towers to either be on their way to or have showed up in Caemlyn.

I also think that ToM will end on a darker tone to emphasize just how close TG is and how much more work is left for team light to do.

On a more general note of how Rand is to defeat the Dark One. I honestly have no clue but in a lot of fantasy novels where the bad guy is somehow "outside" of the world/pattern/belief system etc. the only way to defeat said bad guy is to somehow pull him into the world/pattern/belief. Which would mean that Rand should not reseal the bore, he needs to figure out a way to pull the DO into becoming a part of the pattern.
Dorothy Johnston
73. CloudMist
I think it will be revealed that the playing board for Snakes And Foxes is a map of the Tower of Ghenjei(sp?) and that this is the Big Unnoticed Thing.

Also, has everyone forgotten that at least half the trouble Elayne had gaining the throne (even though she was Daughter-Heir) was because of the mess a Rahvin-controlled Morgase made of the final months of her reign? The people of Andor might be fine with Morgase/Maighdin living in exile in, say, Cairhein, but I don't think they'd stand for Morgase living in Caemlyn advising the new Queen.
Rob Munnelly
74. RobMRobM
Birgit - have to agree with Cloudmist - at this point, Morgase is not an asset for Elayne. Elayne may, and likely will, offer her the crown privately and she'll properly decline. Morgase will need to play a background role - perhaps as the person organizing the construction of the dragons and, finally, showing off those great analytical skills described by Thom and others throughout the books but never really shown on screen.

Rob
a a-p
75. lostinshadow
maybe Morgase can be shipped off to either Egwene or Rand or Logain (who shall hopefully have taken over the BT) in a role reversal where a ruler advises AS on how to deal with other rulers.
Tricia Irish
76. Tektonica
Blind@67 & RobM@68 & Lost@72:

Somewhere on some long lost thread I think we discussed this in some detail, but here's the Cliff Notes Version, please feel free to elaborate:

Rand needs to Seal the Bore/DO in TAR because TAR is in all worlds, but in none. And the Bore is outside of Time. So seal him up there, and poof, he's gone from all worlds. Rand will need Perrin in the Wolf dream, and Egs Dreaming, and probably Nynaeve with him, as well. Whether they need to be in the flesh or not, I don't know. That seems to be Rand's preferred method of being in the Dreamworld.

I like the idea of Rand having to fight Moridan as the DO's champion. The problem is Rand and Moridan are connected. This could possibly help bring Mori to the Light side...A Memory of Light. But how can Rand defeat Moridan when they are connected? If killing is involved, instead of Mori going Lightside, will killing Moridan also kill Rand?

I do agree that Nynaeve will have to pull Rand out of TAR after he's been killed to live again for the last battle, father Avi's kids, etc. When and how he dies is a mystery to me. I just hope it isn't Gawyn in Caemlyn with the candlestick, or whatever.
Marcus W
77. toryx
Morgase: I also agree that Morgase isn't going to be an asset to Elayne. She knows that and for that reason she'll insist that no one tell Elayne that she's alive.

Galad will, of course, refuse but it won't matter because he's not going back to Caemlyn any time soon anyway.

Elaida: She's not gone for good. She has the gift of Fortelling, an ability that the Seanchan are particularly impressed by. It won't be long at all before someone finds out that she's has the ability and Tuon (I refuse to call her that other name) will have her for a new pet.

Either that or someone will find out she's telling the truth about being the Amyrlin Seat and she'll be given directly to Tuon due to that and Tuon will discover that she's got the Foretelling. Either way, Elaida's story is far from over. This I Foretell.
LewsTherin
78. BigJohn42
@73
I think it will be revealed that the playing board for Snakes And Foxes is a map of the Tower of Ghenjei(sp?) and that this is the Big Unnoticed Thing.


If that's the Big Unnoticed Thing, then I'll be horribly disappointed. I thought that was blindingly obvious from the description when someone (Mat?) looked "out the window" in *finnland.

I'm hoping that the Big Unnoticed Thing is... well... Unnoticed.
LewsTherin
79. Megaduck
‘His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.’

Lightbulb moment. This is from Shadow Rising and I think is the exact wording of the "Dragon Will Die" prophecy.

I just found it interesting that the wound on Rands side is pretty much an "Evil Infection" of shadow.

I was thinking that this could just be the wound bleeding out and getting rid of the Shadow and Fain taint that's been in rand for like, forever.
LewsTherin
80. BigJohn42
Some of the things I'd like to see in ToM:
- Further exploration of HOW *finnland works. It's supposed to be a completely alien world, and I'd love to see how it works.
- Rand, and how he behaves after his "Come-To-The-Creator" moment.
- Moiraine, hopefully with a verbal smack-down of Cads' for her behavior toward Rand. She figured out how to deal with him, and guide him toward smart actions. It's been one of my great frustrations that Cads's approach is completely the opposite of what Moraine eventually figured out. It took Rand 5 books to train an Aes Sedai properly, and then she vanished!
- Avi finally getting to be a grown-up.
- Perrin. Now that he's done with his character grown storyline, can he please get back to work on saving the world?
- Wolves. Please?
a a-p
81. lostinshadow
gaaak I just realized that I've abbreviated what should be CoM as ToM throughout a 50 page document.

@80 Though I'm not convinced it will be in ToM, I am really looking forward to a Moiraine-Cads "reunion" especially since Moiraine was convinced in New Spring that Cads was Black and I don't think we've seen anything so far to indicate she may have changed her mind in the interim.
Ben Kane
82. NerveAgent
Concerning some of the more serious predictions about Rand possibly dying in ToM: Sanderson pretty much admitted that's not going to happen. In his write-up for the Suvudu cage match thing back in April, Sanderson listed some reasons why Rand was sure to defeat Jaime Lannister. One of them was that, compared to Jaime, his chances of survival as a character over the near term were good:

Let’s look at the next books in the respective series. Things seem good for Rand. He’s got to get to the Last Battle–where, admittedly, his life will be in real danger. But chances are low that he’ll die in the penultimate book without facing his destiny at Tarmon Gai’don.


So...maybe he is going to die, but not in the next book.

One minor plot point that I'd like to see an update on is who Sarene is going to have a "tempestuous love affair" with. Uno, perhaps?

And Moiraine better get some serious screen time in this book. If rescuing her from the tower is the last thing that happens, I'll probably have an aneurysm.
Daniel Goss
83. Beren
re: Suffa coming back

She has the gift of fortelling, but Tuon already has a damane who can 'tell fortunes' and what's more the one she has can do it on demand. There's no need for Suffa to take time out of her training to bother the new Empress. Also, once a woman becomes damane who she was before is erased, so I don't see the fact that she was Amyrlin having any effect either way.

All of this amounts to "Please, please, please let there be no more Suffa-ing in the new book"
LewsTherin
84. Speradigm
We will find out that Moiraine orchestrated the death of Asmodean. And she will be freed from the tower by Mat, Jaim Farstrider and Thom.

Tuon will take the aes sedai back and use them to pacify the Seanchan using traveling-- coming back with a giant army for Tarmon Gaidan.

Elayne will meet up with Perin and the white cloaks and have a big army.

Basically we get all set up for the last battle yo.
LewsTherin
85. scimystic
Since there is an ongoing theme of the union of opposites through the story, I wonder if Rand somehow merges with Moridin in the end. They would both 'die' but some new being would be created. I wonder if their souls are from the twins that heralded the beginning of a previous new age, like Elayne's twins are probably the heralds of the coming age. They really are alike in many ways.
I think that Ordieth/Mordeth/Fain is going to be a real wild card in the story. Does he see himself as a competitor with the DO, and mount his own attack on him? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's going to be important that Rand carries wounds from both these bad guys. This may be a parallel with Taim's tower: does Taim see himself as a darkfriend or as a competitor with the DO? This, given that he's very likely quite mad at this point.
Anyways, Rand has a pov where he mentions the necessity of clearing out the bore....opening it up and cleaning it out. That has to be figured in.
On my wish list: Rand meets up with a Wisdom who puts together come St Johns wort and some valerian to alleviate his PTSD symptoms. Or he meets up with that Yellow from the rebel camp who was working on finding weaves to heal mental disorders.
And what he learns from Cads is what Not to do: bullying and manipulating and being hard are not the best way to get things accomplished.
Rich Wallace
86. Richman2000
aross07@47 Matt gathering iron and other materials for Aludra’s “Dragons” . In LOC before Perrin and Faile left the Two Rivers, a couple of refugee’s spoke with Faile about finding precious metals in the surrounding mountains, and said that there was a lot of iron in the mountains also. Faile gave them some coin to start mining. That is where the Iron will come from. It is also another commodity to make the Two Rivers/Manetheren becomes the next great kingdom.
Marcus W
87. toryx
Beren:

Yes but a damane who was previously the Amyrlin of the White Tower is special. You can bet your dirty nickle that Tuon would have interest in someone who can claim that title. It'd be ridiculous for her not to be. No one is going to know more about the inner workings of the Tower than her.

Well, ordinarily; Elaida is probably the exception to that rule but Tuon won't know that.

Furthermore, the damane who tell fortunes aren't the type (as far as we've seen, anyhow) to suddenly straighten up and spout prophecy. That's another thing that Tuon will be very interested in.

We may wish Elaida's days were done but I can't imagine her fading away into obscurity. It'd make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Of course, given that the nature of the timeline, we might not see any of this happen into much later in the book, if at all.
LewsTherin
88. aross07
Richman2000@86

Anyone taking my post seriously failed to read the part where Mat is trying to find a superstore in the Wheel of Time.

Wakey-wakey my friend.
Daniel Goss
89. Beren
Toryx

We'll have to agree to disagree, i think. Well, that and RAFO. I just can't forsee any scenario where Suffa could be of any use to anyone ever again. The Empress is not interested in the inner workings of the White Tower, she's already done the one and only thing that she could do to them. And with Thera the Dancing Da'covale as a precedent, I also don't see any Seanchan allowing any piece of property, damane included, to receive any sort of special treatment based on who they were before they became who they are.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Ok, that's a lie. I'll be incredibly annoyed to be proven wrong, as I enjoy reading about her about as much as I enjoy the thought of having my gums scraped. I'll be happy for you, I guess. In the meantime, maybe I'll work up a piece of Suffa fanfic that involves her constantly screaming "You can't do this to me, I'm the Amyrlin Seat" and her handler constantly reminder her "Now Suffa, be a good damane or I won't allow you sweets with supper."

-Beren
Donna Harvey
90. snaggletoothedwoman
Hello all, *waves* first time poster here, been reading and lurking but this I can't resist.
I know this has been predicted already in numerous versions, but I like mine better.
Noal Charin aka Jain Farstrider will be the third to join Matt and Thom to go into the tower and rescue Moiraine. While there his memory and damage done by the BAD guys will be fixed. Moiraine and Noal will hold many discussions on the way back to Caemlyn, info from Matt and Thom will be added and between the four of them will formulate the true way to win a TG. Yeah, Jain Farstrider rides again!! *cheering, confetti, champagne!*
Noal really is my favorite second string charactor.I heart him!
Rob Munnelly
91. RobMRobM
A few more miscellaneous points that relate in part to what has been discussed above.

- While Eg and Rand won't be central to the book, they will need to have some role in the events. Rand needs to come off the mountain; he needs to feel the Amyrlin's anger; and one way or another has to get Logain targeted on the Black Tower.
For her part, Eg needs to deal with Bloodknives; she needs to figure out what to do with sisters lost at the Black Tower; she needs to give Rand a piece of her mind; and also coordinate Black Tower attack. I also believe she will need to do something to integrate novices and Kin into the Tower ASAP to get ready for TG and, likely, prepare a defense against expected attack using traveling by the Seanchan. She also has to do something with Gawyn.

- I think Suffa will play a role. According to Eg's dreams, line of sisters will need to attack the Tower, she'll need to be captured and saved by a Seanchan. Suffa can teach travelling and certainly can help give intelligence on WT needed for attack to proceed. Perhaps a frontal attack that serves as diversion for a snatch and grab against Egwene might do the trick. Other option, with her spouting off about importance of Andor to TG, she'll trigger a Seanchan attack on Elayne. Wouldn't that be ironic....

- No way Tuon is going to use Travelling to get a new TG army back home in Seanchan. I do like the idea that she'll send somebody to check out the scene and find out how much total chaos there is. Tuon is left to her own forces until after TG.
Alice Arneson
92. Wetlandernw
JanDSedai @70 - You are correct - Perrin was NOT in Caemlyn at the same time as Mat when Rand "saw" them. So... I withdraw my guess of truce-making, and assume that he and his hundred-thousand-odd crew are still on the road, at least as of the day before DMDay. Delays due to...??? So I'm thinking we'll see a LOT of Perrin.

Aviendha may (or may not) have returned by now, but she may have gone to the WOs in Arad Doman rather than to Tear, where we last saw Rand & co. Or she may have gone to Caemlyn. In any case I hope she sees something cool in the columns, and we get to see it with her.

Side note on Elayne - I don't believe we'll meet the babies in the series proper. They shouldn't be born for several months yet, by which time everything should be over. (All but the shouting, of course.) Maybe they'll be in the epilogue to AMoL.

...and on Morgase, while I don't think she'll be formally exiled, especially if people (the nobility, mostly) can be made to realize that Rahvin had Compelled her, I suspect she will not be in the forefront in Caemlyn after the fact. If RobM is right, she may go live in Emond's Field - maybe she and Tam will be the new Lord and Lady that Perrin thinks the TR ought to have. Or maybe she'll stay in the Palace and play grandmother to the babies while Elayne deals with affairs of state. Maybe she'll advise Galad on ruling Amadicia or Cairhien. Maybe she'll die saving Elayne from an assassin.

Hey, I had a new looney theory late last night. The third guy to go to the ToG with Mat and Th will be Damer Flinn, who will Heal a stilled Moiraine along with Healing the various wounds Mat receives in the process of the rescue. :p
Rob Munnelly
93. RobMRobM
Wet@93. I'm betting on Grandma and Grandpa in Camelyn. Elayne's 2 kids plus Avi's 4 kids - Birgitte can't do it all....
Alice Arneson
94. Wetlandernw
FWIW on the Seanchan view of Foretelling, RJ responded to a question about Tuon's statement that "damane can tell your fortune":
Tuon is stating a misbelief, really, a Seanchan urban folk tale, if you will. The Seanchan no longer know about Foretelling — though they are beginning to hear reports – but they have memories of the knowledge, you might say. There memories have gotten twisted into the widespread belief that any damane can tell your fortune. This belief is strengthened by the fact that some damane actually can Foretell, and more of them than on “this” side of the Aryth Ocean, a facet of sul’dam remaining in the breeding pool with the result that there are a higher percentage of women who potentially could channel among the Seanchan than on the Eastern side of the ocean. And also a higher percentage of many Talents.
Fortuona's damane Lidya obviously has the Talent, but there's never been any indication that any two women will Foretell the same things. I would think that any damane who has a clear Foretelling would have a certain value, though it's not likely to get her any special treatment other than maybe a sweet with her meal once in a while. Especially not if it's Suffa - or not until she becomes very docile.

Incidentally, no, we did not see Elayne's coronation in Knife of Dreams. We saw the scene where all but one House stands for her, but that's the last we've seen her on screen. Given how much has to happen in TofM, I doubt we'll see an extended Coronation scene, unless it included something significant like Galad or Morgase showing up. And I can't see that happening, since Galad was with Perrin by a tent nearly a month after Elayne got all the votes she needed.

And I still say we won't see Rand doing all the restoration, or Egwene cleaning up the Tower, until nearly the end of the book if at all. These other guys have to catch up - they're many weeks behind in their plotlines. Before DMDay, Perrin has to meet Galad (and all that), and see Tam off to Tear with Cadsuane to meet Rand. Mat has to get to Caemlyn, get the dragons in motion, and hie himself off to the ToG. (Well, that last could happen later, but I don't think so.) Elayne has to be crowned and start pulling Andor back together. Someone has to deal with the Black Tower, because that just has to be part of a book titled "Towers of Midnight". (Yes, I know where the Towers of Midnight are, and that's where the book starts - or rather, that's where the wind starts in chapter 1. highlight for mild spoiler.) In addition, I think Perrin, Galad & co. have to get to Caemlyn before, or very shortly after, DMDay. So a lot has to happen to them, along with some other characters we didn't see much in TGS, before they are all on the same day again.
Heidi Byrd
95. sweetlilflower
On the whole "he will know the Amyrlin's anger" thing, I really don't think Egwene will be angry at Rand and I have a really compelling argument.

1) Elaida foretold this event occuring.
2) Elaida assumed it would be the Amrylin angry at the Dragon
3) Elaida is NEVER correct about her interpretations of her Foretellings
4) ergo, Egwene will not be angry at Rand

:)
Theresa Gray
96. Terez27
A.V Willis@34 & Ishmayl@64 - We know from Brandon that Egwene and Rand will each have 4-5 chapters apiece near the end of TOM. These chapters were saved for TOM, according to Brandon, so as to not spoil the climax of TOM, so it seems certain that they will be central to that climax, which we also know involves the reunion of all the main story lines in one place, presumably Caemlyn, and that this event will launch Tarmon Gai'don.

MOM@36 & TyrianAmiros@57&@65 - Before TGS, I argued that Rand would end the series dead, and that maybe he would be called back by the Horn to finish the job. I argued this for many years at Theoryland, but after TGS, I don't think the theory holds water any more. There was too much building of hope on the subject in TGS for Rand to end the series dead, now. I have since been arguing that Nynaeve will rip him out of Tel'aran'rhiod (there is MUCH foreshadowing for this), and I think the clues all point to Rand dying before the Last Battle. Because of the precepts, Nynaeve will likely have to find Rand with Need, and if the job is finished, the Need shouldn't be great enough. Also, Nicola's Foretelling and the Wise Ones' Dream on the same both indicate that bringing Rand back from the dead is crucial, and also that his women are important. They are IMO most likely important because they will have to save his life with the bond, as Birgitte was saved by Elayne. @Tyrian specifically, I now believe that the main purpose of the Horn will be the Jesus parallel - when they blow the Horn and see that Rand is not there, they'll know that he lives (likely the Heroes will tell them). This will restore hope that was lost when Rand died.

NerveAgent@82 - Brandon very specifically didn't say it wouldn't happen. He was just playing on the general fan sentiment that assumes Rand will live long enough to do the deed at Shayol Ghul. It's supposed to be a surprise when Rand dies before the Last Battle, after all.

scimystic@85 - Min's viewing seems to indicate that the link will end with the death of either Rand or Moridin, but not both. Yes, they are merging, but I think that is a bad thing, and precisely the reason why Rand has to die before the Last Battle.

@all - First, anyone making predictions for TOM might want to check the 'future books' category of the database to see what little tidbits we have for clues. Also, two things to clear up in general:

1. Many people are making guesses as to what scenes will be in the prologue. Keep in mind that the prologue of TOM is simply the other half of the prologue of TGS. Brandon moved half of it to TOM when he split up the books. So, nothing in the prologue should be chronologically after anything that happened in TGS except maybe the other prologue bits.

2. Brandon posted something on Facebook that makes it seem unlikely that Gawyn will actually die:

Brandon on Facebook - 21 June 2010 8:34 pm

A fanmail tonight includes a request for Gawyn to die, and Egwene to hook up with Galad. At least it's not another begging for Rand + Egwene.
10:24 pm
Wow. I did not mean to start an epic Gawyn/Galad/Egwene/Rand thread on my Facebook, but I appear to have done so.
11:05 pm
Some interesting reading if you're thinking/talking about Gawyn as a character can be found here:
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from the comments:

One other way to think of it is thus: The Wheel will keep on turning, and the Age that we live in (or like unto it) will someday arrive. Legends from what is happening in these books will have survived, and become the Arthur legends during our day. Or, in other cases, stories of other characters have survived in other mythologies. (Look up the Slavic god Perun sometime.)

Perrin is not a god, nor is Gawyn the knight of that story I linked. But perhaps someone who lived long ago, in another Age, gave birth to rumors about a young nobleman who made a mistake, and bore the weight of that sin for the rest of his days. And that gave birth to stories, which in turn inspired a poet to write a tale.


I originally thought Gawyn would die, too, but now I'm not so sure. As to how Gawyn killing Rand could inspire the Arthurian legends, I have many ideas about that. I think I will go into more detail later.
Marcus W
97. toryx
For the record, while I believe that Elaida is going to be very important to Tuon and be used (and possibly even trained) by the Empress, I do not believe she will receive special treatment as a result. I never said anything about her receiving special treatment.

She'll probably hate attracting Tuon's interest.
Daniel Goss
98. Beren
Re: Suffa

Except that being chosen out of the raid-captured damande to be trained by the Empress herself (assuming she is still interested in / has time for training) is special treatment. Regardless of why she is seperated, any action that plucks her out of the herd of prisoners and places her in a unique position would be special treatment. Furthermore, Elaida's ego is such that she would most likely see it as confirmation of how 'special' she is. Contrary to hating attracting Tuon's attention, I think she would do anything she could to get near a seat of power, no matter what it takes. Which is precisely why I hope she never gets the chance.
LewsTherin
99. Bourgeois Nerd
I think that the Great Escape from Finnland will not be quite what is expected. Sure, Mat will cheat, but I think the Finns will sort of "want" to be cheated. I don't think they want the DO to win any more than Rand does; yes, they're in a separate world and might not be initially affected by the Pattern breaking (they have their own), but they would probably be next.

Their nature being what it is, though, there will, of course, have to be an Agreement. I predict Mat will give up an eye either to get the Finns "out of his head" as he's so paranoid about or for the Finns to be able to more fully use him as a vessel/camera. I also predict that Noal will trade places with Moiraine, a hostage for a hostage. He'll do this gladly, however, because Finnland's different natural laws and/or the Finns' abilities with memory will fully restore his sanity and reveal all that Ishamael did to him and made him do. He'll trade his life for someone the Light needs. The Finns will be ecstatic about this, because his unique experiences and stories will keep them high/fed/whatever it is they enjoy so much about visitors for a long, long time.

I also predict a part of the Agreement will include a bunch of goodies from their *angreal stores to help at the Last Battle.
John Lofgren
100. JohnTheLurker
@99 Bourgeois Nerd - Your prediction that the Finns want Noal's memories (and Noal wants his own memories) make a lot of sense. This is the first time I've seen a good reason for Noal be one of the three to enter the tower of Ghenjei. Thank you.
Alice Arneson
101. Wetlandernw
Terez @96 I now believe that the main purpose of the Horn will be the Jesus parallel - when they blow the Horn and see that Rand is not there, they'll know that he lives (likely the Heroes will tell them). This will restore hope that was lost when Rand died. Now that one I like. Your best theory yet!! ;)

toryx @97 will probably hate attracting Tuon's interest. LOL!!! Ain't that the truth! No, probably no special treatment - especially since I'm betting her Foretellings won't necessarily be what Tuon wants to hear. And she's not likely to become one of Tuon's personal damane, since Fortuona doesn't have much time for training these days. But whoever is training her will certainly report her Foretellings to Tuon, who might summon her to repeat it. Has Tuon grown up enough to refrain from having a damane beaten for Foretelling something she doesn't like? I could almost hope not... (Beren) :)

Bourgeois Nerd & JohnTheLurker - Good point. As John says, that's the first real reason for Noal to go along that I've seen.
Marcus W
102. toryx
JohntheLurker @ 100:

Your prediction that the Finns want Noal's memories (and Noal wants his own memories) make a lot of sense.

Funny. I thought that was the obvious reason for Noal to be going to the Finns. The whole memory angle has been out there for a while.

I'd always thought that Noal would die there, but taking Moiraine's place is an interesting possibility.

Re: Elaida (One...more...time!): We'll see how it all falls out. Lots of good arguments on both sides, I think.

Wetlandernw @ 101: I didn't think Tuon would have much time to train her either. On the other hand, I figured that might be the type of thing she'd do for relaxation. :)
Eric Neal
103. ewneal
toryx @ 102:

LOL Relaxation... that is hilarious and likely a very accurate picture of Fortuona's favorite stress reduction activity!

I'm still chuckling as I post this!
John Lofgren
104. JohnTheLurker
toryx @ 102: Well, sometimes you have to hit me over the head with foreshadowing and I still miss it.
LewsTherin
105. Azrever
Is it just me or does nobody notice that Noal is a darkfriend? That presents problems for mat and Thom.Rand will find out that Mat is Prince of the ravens.And rand may offer for the seanchan to take all the lands he controls ONLY if they relinquish theyre treatment of channelers.Which may happen if Tuon finds out she can channel.I doubt the empress will leash herself. In order for the prophecies to be Understood Both the Mainlanders and the seanchans must be combined and studied.When Rand,Mat and Perrin are all together Mins viewings of the specks of light flying into the darkness will show that all 3 of them will need to stand together to beat the Dark One(obviously).
Rob Munnelly
106. RobMRobM
OK. More (mostly) serious predictions.

1. Mat, the Band, Aludra, Setalle and the three AS will travel to a spot outside of Camelyn with Verin. With ta'veren luck, this will happen on the day of Elayne's coronation and cause agita as yet another army mysteriously arrives in Andor.

2. Mat, Setalle, Talmanes, Aludra, Verin and the AS will go into Camelyn to meet with Elayne.
a. Setalle will see ter'angreal activity, show off some knowledge, and will stay to help Elayne out.
b. After several days of recovering and getting an update on White Tower doings, the three AS get the Kin to take them to Tar Valon to the unified tower. The three AS arriving in Tar Valon are attacked by Bloodknives. Jolie dies a bloody death; Teslyn kills the assassin.
c. Mat and Aludra will explain the dragons, get Elayne all fired up at their potential for TG, and get large scale production going with assistance from Norry or Harfor. Mat will advise of his upcoming mission (without details) and will offer the Band's services to protect the City until he returns.

3. Perrin will show up and he and Mat will have reunion (yea!!). But Mat needs to leave so it will be a short one.

4. Mat will open Verin's letter, see that it is directions to the Horn of Valere. Nyneave will take them to Tar Valon to deliver the location ito Egwene's hands, then take them to the Tower of Ghenjie. She will tug on her braid and tell him to be careful, and will agree to wait outside until they get back out so she can take them home.

5. They will enter the tower and cheat (music, firesticks, iron) to get away from the Finns and find Moiraine (who is not stilled). Finns will catch them and then bargaining begins. Noal will trade his life to save Thom; Mat will give up an eye to get Moiraine. (I don't know why this is important to the Finns but it is.)

6. They get out, Thom and Moiraine have a big smootch, and they travel to Tar Valon to plan for TG.

Still more to follow.

Rob
LewsTherin
107. Hookedonweaves
Been lurking awhile in the shadows enjoying these threads as well as L at the 13D.

My two cent chaotic predictions:

In the prologue Mesaana will be killed, in the TV wine cellars. She and Asmodean (no body, no die?) planed to kidnap Egs while she is collecting the H of V from where Laras had hidden it.
In the fracas Egs will be wounded but then healed by A who tells Egs that she has had a compulsion weave on her which he has removed. From then on Egs regains her trust for her close friends. Egs recovered enough to fight off A, who escapes by travelling away.

The Boarderlanders lay siege to Caemlyn in order to capture Elayne and thereby force Rand to come to them. Elayne defeats them with the help of Matt and a few dragons. Being rid of their BA sisters (KIA) they then return to defend the Boarderlands.

Matt will also be involved in the Black Tower (surely a “Tower of Midnight”) Ashaman showdown. I had always assumed that Rand with a wave of the access key would easily take care of 100 plus badass Ashaman. But no, ROAFO.
However Matt and company will eventually reach and enter the tower (I had thought that this would be put off until AMOL but seeing the cover of this book it appears not so – this assumes the artist actually read the book . Of course it could always be another tower we are not yet aware of, as from the description of the TOG I would not recognize this as being it) - but anyway we are left with “a cliff hanger” until AMOL

On Avi’s return from the Waste she encounters Therava and Co. Somehow madam sweetiepie Galina is released/escapes/tricks her way out of her bondage. (c’mon admit it – you really want this story line to continue. RJ has invested a bundle in G. Think of all the nastiness she can unleash in the last two books)

Verin’s letter exposing Sorilea to Rand is intercepted by the unmentionable C who thus prevents a bad DF happening, and partly regains Rand’s confidence.

The new improved Rand, kneels and clinches a peace deal with the Empress . and as a result:
1. Egs goes ballistic as the deal puts off any negotiations on Seanchen attitude change to AS and damane leashing until after TG.
2. General Galgan /Demanadred (He who commands a nice big army) tries to depose the Empress, as peace for him is a no-no; he travels (weave learnt from Suffa) his army into Andor to stab the good guys in the back (well , flank). This plan lands him and his army on top of the Black Tower Ashaman., who after a bloody battle are wiped out to a man. His army is badly mauled but he gains some new (Red) damanes. At this point Matt and dragons sally forth hot on the heels of Elayne and Amazons - G/D retires to ED to recoup.
(My!) Fortuona who managed to evade capture (along with S, K and a few Gardiners) escapes through a gateway she amazingly channels. In a Eureaka moment she is hooked on channelling. A new story line is started as she embarks on a quest to find Matt, her only hope of regaining the CT.

Hopefully there is not enough space in this book for any meandering Perrin thread apart from Wolfie updates…though I confess to liking the Morgase as maid scenes (only bettered by Sulin as maid scenes!)

Actually I am looking forward to finding out the true story….
LewsTherin
108. Hookedonweaves
Umm, yes you guessed it ....killed by a Bloodknife, in the TV wine cellars.
Ron Garrison
109. Man-0-Manetheran
TyranAmiros@57 & Terez@96: Excellent theory on Rand's death. I shall expand my theory: The Horn, The Horn, of course.

Novice_in_white@62: "But what I really hope to see is that the Sea Folk are tripped somehow and their contracts with the Aes Sedai made null. I will love to see them pay as novices." Interesting. The Amyrlin could rule that the bargain was to teach them, but the sisters hadn't it carried out properly. "In order to receive the teachings of the Tower, you all must be enrolled as novices." Hee. Hee.

The Last Battle: While the characters of WoT refer to TG as The Last Battle and believe it will be the last battle, the universe of the Wheel has no end (excepting, of course, if the Dark One wins). Therefore there will be new ages and there will be the corresponding "last battles."

RobMRobM@68: I am also of the opinion that "A Memory of Light" refers to Moridin. As a philosopher, he knows that if the DO wins, that means the end of all things. He will realize, unlike the other Chosen, that everlasting life is not a great thing. (100% of zero in this case.) He will see that he has chosen the wrong side.

re. Elaida: Suffa hasn't suffered enuf yet.
Marcus W
110. toryx
JohntheLurker @ 104

Sorry, I got interrupted and didn't get to finish my original thought. My point was that there have been many other times when someone pointed something out like this that I didn't have a clue about. I think it's interesting that some things are obvious to some and others very much not.

Of course, I could also be totally wrong (this is a prediction thread after all) in which case the obvious is, in fact, not at all.

Anyway, I like seeing people post interesting ideas and seeing how people are surprised by them because so much of the books affect people in different ways.
Justin Levitt
111. TyranAmiros
Terez27@96

That's a really good thought about the Horn--they expect Rand to come, but he doesn't show up because Nynaeve's already pulled him out.

Any thoughts on "three become one"? A wacky theory I've been playing with is that Min, Aviendha, and Elayne are all splinters of Ilenya's soul that merge at some point. The "Callandor must be used by a circle of three" just seems too easy.
Henry Loose
112. schrodinger
TyranAmiros @111
if Avi and Elayne merged with Min, I would be very pissed. I would throw my copy through a window. Elayne has been pretty stupid as of late, Avi was just getting into a groove, and Min has always been awesome. It would probably be the worst thing in the series if they merged.
LewsTherin
113. Speradigm
I don't know if anyone esle thinks this but I think the Seanchan has already helped Egwene-- becasue of their attack she got the Seat.

Also, I believe that Tuon already admitted that she probably could channel- but she chooses not to.
diane heath
114. jadelollipop
OK all I did have "Can Tuon Channel" BUT I was thinking "Will we see Tuon Channel?" A lot of her detractors want to see her caught out and leashed. And then Mat would have to free her again ....
I think the truth of the prophecies being warped in Seanchan will be revealed and lead to a change (I do like the fact that Mat will have an influence on freeing of damane.
I LOLed at the idea of Mat having to clean out the BT single-handedly. I can just see/hear his reaction to that theory,
I do think the Seanchan woman from Egwene's dream is Tuon rather than Egeanin. Egwene still has a blind spot about the Seanchan people just as Tuon has a blind spot about Aes Sedai. I would love to see them meet. :)
I don't think that Moraine's rescue will be at the end of the book ---maybe more middle.
I seem to recall a comment (by Brandon S?) that there would be reunion of main characters but cannot confirm it. Still I think we will see them all together again (ala early books) preparing for the final battle
Alice Arneson
115. Wetlandernw
Azrever @105 - The possibility has been discussed; most of us feel that, while Noal was seriously messed with by Ishamael (some claim Graendal too), he's not a DF himself. The hope is that by going to the ToG he can be free of the tampering and be active on the Light side. Other than that, certainly Tuon won't collar herself, but it remains to be seen if someone else will. Even children of the Empress have been collared before, and their names stricken from the books, though not (that we know of) an actual Empress. Who knows?

RobM @106 - Good times! I like it.

Hookedonweaves @107 - FWIW, whether the artist has read the book or not, Harriet has more than a little input into what goes on the cover. I doubt she'd approve a cover completely unrelated to the content... And the only way I want to see Galina again is dead.

Man-o-Manetheran @109 - Love the "Amyrlin's interpretation of how the Windfinders receive proper teaching." LOL
Justin Levitt
116. TyranAmiros
jadelollipop@114

In many of the interviews about the AMoL split, BS mentioned there was a point about two-thirds of the way through where the characters meet up again. I think there's a video of him discussing this at JordanCon 2009?
Noneo Yourbusiness
117. Longtimefan
I do not have any really complex prediction for the next book but I think that the Trollocs that Tylee encountered outside of Ebou Dar in the prolouge of The Gathering Storm may be foreshadowing something that could involve the Seanchan, the Tinkers and the Trollocs coming through with larger numbers.

If the Seanchan get involved in rescuing the Tinkers from waves and waves of Trollocs that may lead to the Ogier Gardeners working with Tinkers. This may lead to finding part of the song.

The Tinkers were massacred for a reason. They have been in the books for a reason. A bigger reason than just to have a wandering culture of peaceful people. They are the descendants of the human part of the Ogier/Nym/human farming cycle from the age of legends for a reason.

Also any big internal battle between the Seanchan and Trollocs will keep the Seanchan from expanding their hold outside of the territories they have currently and may even weaken them to the point where Fortuna the Empress needs to approach the Dragon Reborn for help.

Just an idea.

As to Mat and the letter Verin gave him. I think he will read it. His innate curiosity will cause him to read the letter before 30 days pass but his need to keep his word will cause him to follow the directions in the letter even though he will complain about "Aes Sedai and their tricks".

No idea what the letter contains.
Henry Loose
118. schrodinger
I like the idea of Tuon and Egwene having a sit down chat. Of course, Mat would have to mediate, to keep them from each other's throats (healthy, he can probably hold Tuon's martial arts in check, and his medallion will keep Egwene from incapacitating him with the power).
LewsTherin
119. theLIGHTONE
Call me crazy but here's my loony Eg dream interpretation.

I think seanchan girl with sword on back is Tylee, not Egeanin/Leilwin. Egeanin(from here on out leilwin per her request:])Leilwin's been a bit spineless after getting chewed out by Tuon for me to be a good enough go between for Egwene. Besides, Leilwin's a ship captain, not a warrior like Tylee.

1. Tylee already was bold enough to recommend alliances to Empress Tuon's face(the name fortuana just doesn't match tuon's personality for me as much, as so many have already stated)

2. Tylee has a sword, have we seen Leilwin fighting with a sword? I dont recall her with anything but daggers and a'dam.

3. Tylee SO kicked major Shaido butt(FINALLY!), she's not all into herself, and she is so _likeable_. Honestly, she's my fav seanchan. Tuon is close second, but only b/c her close proximity to Matt's awsomeness.

Im not saying she will be Egwene's go between, but I'd really like it if she was :]
Theresa Gray
120. Terez27
Me@96 and TyranAmiros@116 - I noticed earlier when I was reading through the aforementioned WorldCon report that Brandon said 3-4 chapters for Rand and Egwene, rather than 4-5 like I thought. It may end up being closer to 3 chapters apiece after the Great Chapter Melding of 2010. Here is the quote:

WorldCon 8 August 2009 - Dom reporting

Brandon drew a graph of A Memory of Light's structure and explained in some details how he ended up re structuring it as three books. Not much that isn't already known in there, book 12 will have two main story lines (we know it's Rand and Egwene, but as I said Brandon didn't say so explicitly at the Q&A) and teasers for three more (Mat - and seemingly Perrin and Elayne)9. By 'teasers', Brandon precised he means 3 or 4 chapters per story line, the rest of the chapters being divided between the two main story lines (by recent books, this could means Egwene/Rand have about 10-12 chapters each, or a few more). Some developments happen in the teasers but it's not huge stuff, more like setup chapters for what happens in book 13.

Book 13 will have the opposite, with 3-4 chapters each for Egwene and Rand, "toward the end". Brandon kept those for book 13 to avoid spoiling in The Gathering Storm the climax of book 13, which will mark the reunion of all the main story lines at some location, and launch Tarmon Gai'don. So in book 13 we will have the residual Rand/Egwene chapters that specifically build up to the reunion.


Thanks to DomA from rafo.com for that report; it's a good one. I am hesitant to give links here for fear of being marked spam, but if you google 'Theoryland Robert Jordan Brandon Sanderson interview database' or some such it will probably be the first thing to come up.

So, the reunion of the main story lines will be at the end of TOM, including Rand and Egwene, and the clues indicate at the very least that the Gawyn Hates Rand plotline will come to a head in this climax.

TyranAmiros@111 - That theory was so tempting that I actually believed it for like a whole day. I was practically begging people to tell me it was stupid (there is never a shortage of those people at Theoryland).

Longtimefan@117 - I believe those Shadowspawn and the ones that attacked Algarin's manor were stolen by Fain. I will be posting a theory at Theoryland on that shortly.

Also, there is a relevant quote pertaining to Verin's letter to Mat:

The Gathering Storm book tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix, AZ 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

Q: Can you clear up the timeline issues? How do Mat, Perrin, Rand, and Egwene all match up in the timeline?
A: The Gathering Storm begins sometime in April. It ends around the end of June/beginning of July. However, Perrin advanced very little – only about 2 weeks. Mat advanced a bit more, but was still about a month behind Rand and Egwene (this gets an asterisk as a MAFO), but Mat traveled to Caemlyn about 30 days before the end of the book – he emphasized 30 days and asked if I understood the significance of that – I said that I do.

So, Verin showed up to fetch Mat 30 days before Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, at which time Mat was still in Caemlyn (Rand had seen him shortly before). My guess is that Mat is going to wait the 30 days in order to free himself of the obligation to Verin's instructions (which, of course, put his back up). But I believe he will open the letter out of curiosity anyway, even though she suggested he burn it if she did not return after 30 days. He only has to wait ten days to avoid that obligation to carry out her instructions; his second obligation is to stay in Caemlyn for 30 days in case she returns for the letter. He can open it after 10 days the same way he opened Elayne's letter in TDR - with a hot knife to replace the seal. :) Of course, the letter might be warded...but it seems doubtful. Warded to his touch maybe?

wetlandernw@101 - I'm glad you like it. Of course, the theory is sort of dependent on the idea of Rand being brought back to life (unless one believes that he can get away with faking his death). I should probably expand more on that theory here. But as far as theories go, this one is pretty spoilerish.

Why I am so sure Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod:

RJ has said before that he has tried to make Rand a general sort of messiah figure. Not Jesus specifically, but something akin, like the many legends of the pre-Christianity days in the Western World. IMO, it has been obvious for some time now that Rand has to die, and that his death will in some way save the world from the Shadow. It has been assumed for a long time that this is synonymous with the fact that his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will save the world from the Shadow. I am no longer so sure this is the case.

RJ has emphasized that 'no one is going to save you; there are not going to happen any miracles', but if Rand is going to be a proper messiah figure, then he's got to come back to life after he dies. Again, I once believed that he wouldn't, but after reading TGS I am convinced that Rand will survive the Last Battle. The Aelfinn did not tell him that he could not survive, when he asked, and if that was the truth, then they should have. They told him that in order to live, he must die. It is implicit that he must die before he can survive the Last Battle; that is what Rand asked, after all.

I once believed that it simply meant that he had to die to win the Last Battle, and that if he did not die, he would never be reborn because the Dark One would destroy the Pattern. But TGS emphasized that Rand is the only one that has given up on surviving the Last Battle. His friends want him to live. Rand's loss of hope is made out to be a bad thing - it's evidence of the darkness that is shadowing his thoughts.

In Nicola's Foretelling, mirrored by a dream that Bair and Melaine shared, the future teeters on the edge of a blade, a scale tilting first one way, and then the other. Rand's body is on a boat, and his three women are with him. It would seem that Rand's return is very important, from both these prophecies. If the Last Battle is done, then why does the future depend on his return?

In another of Min's viewings, there are three women before a pyre. Min has seen three women before his funeral bier before, with him on it. Egwene has had a dream, possibly related, of a man on a narrow cot. It is important that he not die, but the funeral pyre is already being prepared. But if they are going to burn his body, then why does the future depend on his return while they watch over him in the boat?

In Arthurian legend, King Arthur is mortally wounded by Mordred at the Battle of Camlann, and his body is carried on a boat to the island of Avalon to be healed of its wounds. In some stories he was carried on the boat by three queens, and in some, one of them was Morgan Le Fay, who is paralleled in Moiraine. In some, Arthur dies anyway, but there is a legend that he never died, or that he will some day return to lead his armies against the enemy.

Because RJ twists the legends, it is difficult to use them as a guide to what will happen because the borrowing is not direct. RJ was trying to create a story which might have been twisted over the years to become the legends of our day. The Arthurian legend lends to the belief that Rand will stay dead, and that he will only come back if called by the Horn, to lead his armies against the enemy. But that doesn't really fit with the prophecies that we have been given from the books, does it?

In order to survive the Last Battle, Rand must first die. This in itself does not necessarily rule out Rand dying at the Last Battle, but Nicola's Foretelling and the Wise Ones' dream, along with the pyre/bier prophecies, seem to indicate to me that Rand will die before the Last Battle is fought. His body will be burned - his maimed and rotting body - and he will be brought back from the dead in a new body.

It just so happens that RJ has only introduced two ways to bring someone back from the dead in the series, and it is a mark of RJ's writing skill that he has placed some intricate limitations on both. One of them is evil: the Dark One has the ability to transmigrate the souls of his followers, and RJ has gone into some detail on the limitations of that in interview.

The second means of resurrection - ripping a Hero out of Tel'aran'rhiod - also has some serious restrictions:

1. There is only a small pool of Heroes, less than 100 people, who are accessible from Tel'aran'rhiod to be resurrected in this way. This fact is the essence of why Birgitte says that Heroes are 'not dead as others are dead'. Normal dead people cannot be reached in any way by the living. They cannot observe living people in Tel'aran'rhiod, and they cannot observe even the limited reflection of the world that is Tel'aran'rhiod. Only Heroes can do this.

2. There are precepts, 'stronger than law', that prevent the Heroes from actually making contact with the living. It is possible - their free will remains, as Birgitte demonstrated - but most of them certainly abide by these precepts most of the time, because as Gaidal says, breaking them always has serious consequences.

3. Normally, bringing a Hero back to life in this fashion is tragic and disastrous, as it was for Birgitte. It took her out of her normal cycle of rebirth, and prevented her from being reborn at the proper time.

4. When ripped out, chances are the Hero in question will die anyway. Nynaeve's Healing was not enough to save Birgitte; she was only saved by the Warder bond.

As for 1, Rand is definitely one of those Heroes. As for 3, this drawback would not seem to be applicable to those who have only just died. Ripping them out simply brings them back to life, and should not interfere with the cycle of rebirth at all. Min's viewings show that Birgitte is still tied to Gaidal; she will simply be much older than him in this life. As for 4, Rand has his three women - all three of them central to the prophecies of his death - to save him with the bond when he returns.

As for 2...it is probably safe to assume that Rand will abide by the precepts like a good boy. How, then, would anyone be able to rip him out? Birgitte was caught in the ta'veren web - Perrin was the first of the living that she spoke to - and we have to ask ourselves why the Pattern needed Birgitte to break those precepts.

Both of those questions point to Nynaeve. She was shown the way to find Rand by the Wise Ones in TSR. Egwene was the one that was studying with them, but Nynaeve was the huntress:

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 52 - Need

"Aes Sedai," Amys said, "you can make a request for help sound a demand." Nynaeve's mouth tightened – demand? She had all but begged. Demand, indeed! – but the Aiel woman did not seem to notice. Or chose to ignore it. "Yet a danger to Rand al'Thor... We cannot allow the Shadow to have that. There is a way."

"Dangerous." Bair shook her head vigorously. "This young woman knows less than Egwene did when she came to us. It is too dangerous for her."

"Then maybe I could —" Egwene began, and the two cut her off as one.

"You are going to complete your training; you are too eager to go beyond what you know," Bair said sharply at the same time Amys said, not the slightest bit softer, "You are not there in Tanchico, you do not know the place, and you cannot have Nynaeve's need. She is the hunter."


If Rand has not yet won the Last Battle, then this Need would surely be sufficient for Nynaeve to find Rand even if he abides by the precepts. As for the question of why Birgitte was encouraged by Perrin's ta'veren web to break them...I believe it was specifically so that Nynaeve could see how it was done:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 34 - A Silver Arrow

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

Moghedien sank to her knees, panting, clutching the protruding arrow shaft with both hands as the glow around her faded and died. Then she vanished, and the silver arrow fell where she had been, stained dark with blood.

After what seemed an eternity, Nynaeve managed to push up to hands and knees. Weeping, she crawled to Birgitte's bow. This time it was not pain that made tears come. Kneeling, naked and not caring, she clutched the bow. "I'm sorry," she sobbed. "Oh, Birgitte, forgive me. Birgitte!"

There was no answer except the mournful cry of a night-bird.


This was done with the Power, and Nynaeve saw it. It was emphasized twice already in the series at this point that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to remember it. RJ said that if we caught on to a theory too quickly, he liked to stop giving clues about it, but if we were thinking in the wrong direction, sometimes he would drop in another clue to try to steer us back toward the right path. No wonder, then, that we were reminded again in TGS that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to have it committed to memory.

As I mentioned before, I believe that there was too much building of hope in TGS for Rand to end the series dead. One of those hope-building moments also happens to contain what I think is some pretty blatant foreshadowing:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 33 - A Conversation with the Dragon

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

She opened her mouth to object again, but he gave her a sharp glance. "That is how it must be, Nynaeve."

She closed her mouth.

"You did well tonight," Rand said. "You have saved us all a lot of trouble."

"I did it because I want you to trust me," Nynaeve said, then immediately cursed herself. Why had she said that? Was she really so tired that she blabbed the first thing that came to her mind?

Rand just nodded. "I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."


Again, the hints point to Nynaeve.

Before TGS, some believed Rand would be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod, but not many were making the connections to all of the clues that Nynaeve would be the one to do it. However, many thought that Nynaeve would be the one to bring Rand back from the dead - they just thought that she would somehow find a way to Heal death. But I don't believe that RJ would build that possibility into his series. If there were a weave that could Heal death, then anyone could be brought back to live. As per the limitations above, not many people could be brought back to life in this way. But the foreshadowing that Nynaeve will find a way to 'Heal' death is actually pretty plentiful, aside from the specific clues that I have mentioned in relation to ripping him out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Nynaeve takes death very personally because of her passion for Healing, and because of her stubbornness. She knows that she cannot Heal death, but it frustrates her.

There is one other bit of foreshadowing that I think points to Rand being ripped out, and it's from Min rather than Nynaeve:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds

"Sooner or later, I have to die, Min," he said patiently. He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. That still made no sense to him, but it left one cold hard fact. Just as the Prophecies of the Dragon seemed to say, he had to die. "Not soon, I hope. I plan not soon. I'm sorry, Min. I never should have let you bond me." But he had not been strong enough to refuse, any more than he had been strong enough to push her away. He was too weak for what had to be done. He needed to drink in winter, till he made winter's heart seem Sunday noon.

"If you hadn't, we'd have tied you up and done it anyway." Best not to ask how that would have differed from what Alanna had done, he decided. Certainly, she saw a difference. Climbing onto the bed on her knees, she cupped his face in her hands, "You listen to me, Rand al'Thor. I won't let you die. And if you manage it just to spite me, I'll follow you and bring you back." Suddenly a thick vein of amusement rippled through the seriousness he felt in his head. Her voice took on a mock sternness: "And then I'll bring you back here to live. I'll make you grow your hair below your waist and wear hair clips with moonstones."


We know from several prophecies that Min has body-watching duty, and while she could follow Rand with the stone ring, she has no means of bringing him back. Only Nynaeve can do that. But as per the name of this chapter, Min will be an important part of what is needed to help Rand survive.

There is one other viewing that might be pertinent, of Nynaeve kneeling over someone's corpse in a posture of grief. This could very well be Rand. It could also be Lan. While we are not so sure that Lan will die as we are sure that Rand will die, there is definitely some foreshadowing of Lan dying. I can see him living to the end of the series, but I can also see him dying. If he does die, then I think it almost certain that Nynaeve will find Lan in Tel'aran'rhiod when she goes to search for Rand. I don't know if she will expect to find him there - I would think not - but her Need will surely bring her to him if he is there. That way, Nynaeve could bond him (finally!) to save his life when she rips him out along with Rand. :) His death would cut the bond with Myrelle as he died if she were not dead already (likely). In fact, I can see Myrelle's death leading to him being reckless at Tarwin's Gap. Again, there would be no disastrous effects for Lan any more than there would be for Rand, if he had just died, and it would be a nice surprise for Nynaeve as she does her duty to the world by ripping out Rand. He could even make himself a little younger. :D

Part of the reason why I like the idea of Lan dying and getting caught up in this mix is the way that Nynaeve caught his interest in the first place: by her tracking skills. Nynaeve is 'the hunter'. And Lan keeps promising her that he will die, so it seems right for him to actually die, and for Nynaeve's stubbornness to win anyway as she brings him back from the dead. It would lend significance to Nynaeve being the one to rip Rand out, IMO.

Edit:

theLIGHTONE@119 - In Egwene's dream, the most solid thing about it is the sword. That leads me to believe that the sword is especially significant, and if it's a Seanchan, then the sword pretty much has to be Justice (Rand's new sword, which once belonged to Artur Hawkwing). That leads me to believe it will be Tuon. Also, Egwene has another dream of a golden hawk - female - stretching out its wing to touch her. It could be Berelain, but Tuon seems more likely to me.
Janet Hopkins
121. JanDSedai
Well, we know that Rand has to die for the Light to be victorious; what we don't know is why.

Ishamael, in his incarnation of the DO in EOTW, states that death is his realm, and he holds sway over the dead. (In his later incarnation, his name is Death, but that's not to the point.) Perhaps Rand will battle Ishy on his home ground, and thereby win a lasting victory.

But that's in aMOL, not germaine to the thread of guessing what's going to happen in the *next* book.

Somehow, I always associated Alivia with the woman-with-a -sword in Egwene's dream. Alivia has been a weapon for the Seanchan for 400 yrs, so I guess you could call her a 'sword'. But I agree, Terez, that it is probably Tuon.

Interesting tidbit on the timeframe about the end of Rand and Egwene's plotlines being late June. Steven Cooper's timeline put it at June 2, albeit tentatively. If Rand's plotline at the end of KOD is April 9, what the frak has he been doing for two-and-a-half months?! He couldn't take even a little visit to the Black Tower? He's known since Logain came to him the probable state of things in the BT, so TOM will have to contain serious backpeddling,
Theresa Gray
122. Terez27
JanDSedai@121 - I think that Rand will probably die at the end of TOM. He probably won't be brought back until AMOL, but I believe that Rand's link with Moridin is exactly why Rand has to die. As time goes on and on, the the merge becomes more evident at a frightening pace. Some think that the merge will lead to Moridin renouncing the Shadow, and while I think that would make for some juicy fanfiction, I have a feeling that RJ has portrayed Moridin as someone who is beyond redemption, despite the old saying.

I think it more likely that the merge is a danger to Rand's soul than a means for Moridin's redemption. His Healing on Dragonmount gave him the will to resist it for a while longer - long enough to make it to his prophesied death - but Brandon has confirmed that Rand's use of the True Power will have further consequences, and so long as he is linked with Moridin, the temptation will be there. His body is corrupted and maimed; all it takes is for Fain to be in the same room for Rand to be doubled over in pain from the wound on his side; the link with Moridin probably makes him sick for the same reason (and he can most often sense Moridin when he uses the Power). Brandon has also confirmed that Fain's wound in particular is contributing to Rand's growing mistrust and paranoia.

In Egwene's somewhat-prophetic Accepted test, in the second trip through, she was in Caemlyn, which was being torn apart by Shadowspawn and all sorts of madness, and Rand was trapped under a fallen beam, unable to move. He begged Egwene to kill him, told her that if a spark of life remained, they could turn his soul to the Shadow, and Egwene couldn't bring herself to do it. The arches came, and she left him there, still begging.

The chapter in TFOH where Moiraine fought Lanfear was named 'Choices'. There was another chapter by the same name in TEOTW:

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 13 - Choices

"Is that the way you all feel? You are all eager to run off to Illian and forget about Trollocs, and Halfmen, and Draghkar?" She ran her eyes over them – that stony glint playing against the everyday tone of voice made Rand uneasy – but she gave no one a chance to speak. "The Dark One is after you three, one or all, and if I let you go running off wherever you want to so, he will take you. Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."

It was her voice, so matter-of-fact, that convinced Rand. The Aes Sedai would do exactly what she said, if she thought it was necessary.
He had a hard time sleeping that night, and he was not the only one. Even the gleeman did not begin snoring till long after the last coals died. For once, Moiraine offered no help.

...

"And you, Rand?" Moiraine said. "What do you think of your first sight of Baerlon?"

"I think it's a long way from home," he said slowly, bringing a sharp laugh from Mat.

"You have further to go yet," Moiraine said. "Much further. But there is no other choice, except to run and hide and run again for the rest of your lives. And short lives they would be. You must remember that, when the journey becomes hard. You have no choice."

Rand exchanged glances with Mat and Perrin. By their faces, they were thinking the same thing he was. How could she talk as if they had any choice after what she had said? The Aes Sedai's made our choices.


When the journey became hard for Moiraine, she was given three choices, and little hope for her survival. 'A spoonful of hope and a cup of despair.' None of those three choices involved Rand making the choice that could have saved Moiraine's life: to kill Lanfear. Rand made Moiraine's choices for her.

If Moiraine is to be a proper Morgan Le Fay parallel to Rand's Arthur, then I think she'll be connected to his death somehow. But rather than carrying him to Tar Valon on the boat to be Healed, she will instead be the one to kill him. This will fit with the dark aspect of Morgan Le Fay's character, but in a way that suits Moiraine's character, because she will be doing what is necessary for Rand's success. This will fulfill Min's viewing, that Rand will almost certainly fail without her.

And yes, I still believe that Gawyn will mortally wound Rand in Caemlyn, possibly in the very hall where Elaida gave her Foretelling about Rand: 'From this day Andor marches toward pain and division....Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands at the heart of it.' I'm not sure how it will be that he and Gawyn are alone, or near enough to it - certainly no one will be there that can Heal him - but I believe that Moiraine will arrive just in time to find Rand on the brink of death, remembering her promise, begging her to kill him as he begged Egwene in her Accepted test. Just in time to save him from servants of the Shadow that would have him turned, or perhaps just in time to save him from the link with Moridin, or just in time to save him from the temptation to save his own life with the True Power, as Ishamael did twice before.

Furthermore, the timing you mentioned...yes, Rand's Dragonmount episode was near the beginning of June, and so far as I know, this matches up with what Brandon and Team Jordan have said on the subject. Half of TOM will probably be Perrin and Mat catching up to that, since both of them were last seen by on screen about a month before then. We see them through Rand's eyes not long before the Dragonmount episode, and Perrin is still with Galad and camped out under that sword, and Mat is still in Caemlyn. Much of the rest of the book will probably deal with Ghenjei, and various other characters from whom we have not heard much in a while. Rand and Egwene are brought in at the end, just in time for the climax and the reunion, probably just in time for Mat and Moiraine to return from Ghenjei.

And of course, my bets are on the climax of the book revolving around Rand's death and the Battle of Caemlyn, which I suspect will be mainly an attack by the Seanchan, but maybe with the Black Tower being slightly involved. I don't expect the Black Tower battle to be until after Rand dies, as per Egwene's Logain dream, but if the 'heart-wrenching' chapter Brandon refers to is Rand's death, then there are about 10 more chapters after that. I suspect it is more likely Lan's death, though. I'm still iffy on whether or not he will actually die. Maybe Farstrider. I expect Rand to die nearly at the end, for the cliffhanger.

Also, I expect him to die around June 20, which would be Sunday, the longest day of the year, and supposedly the day when the Shadow's powers in the world should be the weakest. I expect Gawyn to give him the mortal wound at noon, the time of day when the Shadow's powers are the weakest, and Moiraine to slip in for the final kill shortly thereafter. Maybe right after. She will pretend to try to Heal him if anyone is watching, and stop his heart. They will burn his corrupted and maimed body, and the body on the boat will be the one that was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

Incidentally, I know I've mentioned this a billion times, but in Arthurian legend, Gawain's powers were supposedly strongest at noon, because his power waxed and waned with the rising and setting of the sun. Egwene said: "Betray? Gawyn Trakand, that word fits you as darkness fits the sun." For another Jesus parallel, when Jesus was on the cross the sun went dark at noon. Via the Fisher King parallels, there will probably be similar things going on when Rand dies - I suspect this is how he will break the world again; Carridin saw it in the visions that came with his orders from Ishamael - and perhaps Dragonmount will erupt and cover the sky with ash. In the Shienaran Welcome, they say: 'Against what do we guard?' 'The shadow at noon.' It might just be a saying, but then there is the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy, which might also be connected.

I think Mat's medallion will pass to Elayne, and then to Alivia, and then to Gawyn, and that this will be Alivia's role in Rand's death, as one of a long string of Lightfriends that will contribute in order to deny the evil characters - the more obvious Mordred parallels: Moridin, Mordeth, and Demandred - the pleasure of killing him, and in order to deny the Shadow his soul. I think the most important Mordred parallel is Gawyn (Morgase+Damodred=Mordred), and that in RJ's view, Mordred never existed, and was fabricated out of a combination of these characters over the years as the story faded to legend.

I suspect that all this will happen in TOM; there will be another battle as Nynaeve tries to find Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod, but I suspect that will be in AMOL, along with the Black Tower battle and the Seanchan truce and/or Consolidation. I'm not sure whether I should expect Rand's confrontation with Egwene in this book, though. It's certainly possible, but in that case the Seanchan woman with her probably wouldn't be the same as the one with the sword.

I believe that 'A Memory of Light' refers to the despair of the people when they learn that their only hope of salvation, their only hope of victory against the Shadow, is dead.
Eric Neal
123. ewneal
Terez27 @ 120

As I was reading your post I had the thought that just as with Brigitte when she was ripped from TAR, if Rand is brought back from TAR following his death would he have the memories of all of his previous lives? a Memory of Light, so to speak... This might give him details about the bore - how it was originally formed and how it was sealed. This knowledge might allow him to piece together the puzzle of how to seal the bore permanently.

Thanks for the great, and prolific, theories and their supporting evidence from the text.
Eric Neal
124. ewneal
Can anyone give a synopsis of the Forsaken and what their current status is? Perhaps with a timeline of the ones who have been killed, resurrected, balefired etc.?

Perhaps this would give some insights into events to come...

Thanks ahead for your input!
Theresa Gray
125. Terez27
@ewneal - I figure he will probably have the same situation as Birgitte; he'll remember several lives at first (perhaps long enough to help him seal the Bore), and lose his memories as time goes on. I have a feeling he will always remember something of Lews Therin's life, though. Birgitte remembered several lives, but she seems to be born much more often than Rand is. I don't know if Rand will remember all the way back seven Ages to the previous Turning. Maybe he will have an inkling. Also, Linda's theory on the Way of the Leaf is one of her best I think; she thinks that the Aiel must re-adopt the Way of the Leaf before the Last Battle, and that this conviction will come from Aviendha after her trip through the glass columns - man, I hope we get to see that!

I haven't theorized much on the sealing of the Bore yet; I think we will get more clues in TOM.
diane heath
126. jadelollipop
@122 The only objection I had to your theory previously was the idea of Mat betraying Rand. Yet if Moraine is the one who kills Rand (even to save him from the Shadow) then Mat might think he had betrayed his friend. I just cannot see Mat giving up his medallion to Elayne or anyone else.
:)
Theresa Gray
127. Terez27
Why not, when he has done it before?

Also, I doubt anyone but Rand and Moiraine will know that Moiraine killed him. I'm more sure about Gawyn's part in this than I am about Moiraine's; there are only a few clues for Moiraine's role, but there is tons of evidence for Gawyn's role.
Theresa Gray
128. Terez27
ewneal@124 - I missed your post. Here you go:

Moridin - is hanging out in his Blight fortress, preparing for...whatever. We're not sure. He says the Day of Return is coming soon.

Moghedien - mindtrapped by Moridin, sometimes sent south on errands.

Cyndane - ditto.

Demandred - we have no idea what he's up to. He could be posing as Roedran. Some suspect he is in Shara. He might have some command at the Black Tower. He might be manipulating one or more of the Borderland rulers. Theories abound.

Graendal - presumed dead. We will find out for sure in TOM.

Aran'gar - possibly also dead if she was with Graendal. She had to flee the rebel camp in KOD with Delana, and she was making moves on Graendal (who confirms their alliance in TGS).

Mesaana - still in the Tower, confirmed by Brandon.

All the others are dead (Be'lal, Sammael, Rahvin, Asmodean, Semirhage, and Osan'gar).
Eric Neal
129. ewneal
Terez27 @ 128

Thanks! It is hard to keep the list straight.
Tricia Irish
130. Tektonica
Terez:

You are a treasure! So glad you are back here! Your posts at 120 and 122 are in my permanently bookmarked file! Thank you!
James Jones
131. jamesedjones
Does anyone recall Min's vision about Perrin and Rand? Anyone? Anyone?

The Seanchan are firmly convinced that Rand must kneel to the crystal throne, or they will lose the last battle. And they've got all these nifty double-bracelet collars lying around since that crazy truth-speaker disappeared. What was her name? Annie?

Tuon decides to go-for-broke with Rand when he returns to negotiate another deal. She collars him, and forces him to kneel, personally.

Perrin, along with Tylee and Galad, stops this in another MOA for the PLOD victims. Hopefully, this will occur before Rand endures too much mental trauma (or as little mental trauma as possible).

Tylee might be working with Egwene, at this point (dream about the Seanchan with the sword). If so, her anger will be known by all in attendance. Rand might have to save Tuon.

Rand then binds the nine moons to him, after being beaten black and blue (and yellow and brown and purple - see chapt 40 of LOC).

Looking forward to this.
James Jones
132. jamesedjones
Wondering about all the memories that the Snakes and Foxes harvest. Will our favorite mini-AS really survive the ToG, or will it just be her memories? Gotta go back and re-read that letter to Thom.
Theresa Gray
133. Terez27
jamesdjones@131 - I'm thinking Perrin's second time will be one of two things:

1. Bringing Morgase to Caemlyn, in which case he would not quite make it in time, and it would be 'very, very bad'.

2. Protecting Rand from Slayer in the Wolf Dream while Nynaeve searches for him with Need, to keep Slayer from killing Rand permanently. In this case, Perrin will prevail and the 'very, very bad' will be avoided.

There's an interesting connection in the quote I gave above, with Min saying she would follow Rand and bring him back. Rand says he needs to drink in winter until he makes winter's heart seem Sunday noon. Perrin discovered that Rand had been kidnapped on the Feast of Lights, the winter solstice and the darkest day of the year - the heart of winter. I think Rand will die on Sunday - the longest day of the year - at noon. Either of my two options for Perrin would come into play then. Weird, huh?
Maiane Bakroeva
134. Isilel
You guys have been busy here! Anyway, here are my predictions:

1. Graendal is alive and will arrange murder of Alanna to make Rand suffer as per Moridin's orders.

2. Bair is the DF, who sabotaged communication with Perrin's group (non-dreamwalker WOs are trained to recognise a dream-walkers touch and exchange information in a dream, as that WO who got murdered informed us in TSR). She also divulged location of Cadsuane's Domination Band.

3. Verin will leave letters with Perrin and Elayne and there will be one waiting for Rand too. She will also recognise Setalle/Martine and tell her about Flinn's Healing.
There will be a Verin POV that will explain why she decided that her time was up.

4. Bashere is also a DF (and Demandred's proxy near Rand) and we will learn that he had gone over to protect his family. This will provide a dark mirror to Perrin, who nearly went there over Faile, but shied off the brink.

5. Perrin and the WCs will be about to fight when Morgase will reveal herself and convince Galad to refrain and give Perrin a benefit of doubt.

6. Galad will finally live up to his reputation and regretfully execute his friend Dain Bornhald when he learns that Dain left TR's civilians to the Trollocs.

7. By the end of ToM Faile will be Queen of Saldea.

8. Demandred will attack the Aiel left in the Waste with the Sharans and slaughter most of them. Aviendha will witness their descent on Rhuidean when she comes out of the columns. Thus, "the remnant of the remnant" will come to pass and unlike with Amayar, we will care.

9. Egwene will be attacked by Mesaana and kill her, with help.

10. Siuan will be handed over Verin's "work" for deciphering and she will figure out Mesaana's identity in the nick of time and bring help to Egwene. Gawyn will be part of it.

11. Egwene will find out location of the Seanchan prisoners in T'AR or touching their dreams and send a rescue party. However, it will turn out that upon learning Elaida's identity, Yulan sent her ahead. OTOH, another Seanchan official will see that local AS don't behave anything like Seanchan tradition claims.
P.S. Gotta clarify here, that Seanchan soldiers will be disarmed, but let go, with message for Tuon. There will also be a demonstration that a'dam can hold most sul'dam and revelation that they are (potential) channelers.

12. Shaido WOs will demonstrate that a'dam can be beaten, which will pave the road for Seanchan abandoning it.

13. Somebody (Verin? Setalle?) will figure out how to "turn on" sul'dam's channeling through the a'dam. Elayne's prisoners will be turned into channelers and sent back - which will put additional pressure on the leashing system.

Gotta run, more to come! ;).
Eric Neal
135. ewneal
Isilel @ 134

I really like the idea of Setalle figuring out a loophole in the a'dam. It seems as if she will have some significant role to play having to do with the Seanchan and/or Ter'angreal and this could well be it.

Bashere as a darkfriend... I dunno... although I do think that we will have several surprise reveals about prominent, even popular, characters being dark friends. We will have to RAFO to find out for sure.

Thanks for your ideas... very interesting and thought provoking!
Eric Neal
136. ewneal
Karen Fox
137. thepupxpert
I predict Suffa will redeem herself by leading all the damane in a revolution and come back victorious to the White Tower…

*just kidding*

No really, in keeping with the law of conservation of characters, I’m sure Suffa is due for an overhaul. She’ll find some way to escape and come back to the WT and attempt to kill Egwene, and Tuon will save Egs by blasting Suffa with the OP. No MOA for this one!
Maiane Bakroeva
138. Isilel
Ok, some more:

14. Taim and Co. will kidnap families/women of the Asha'man who have them and blackmail the men with their lives into attacking various targets, including Caemlyn.
The goal would be to foster impression that they are all DFs/have gone bonkers and destroy the nascent acceptance for male channelers among the forces of Light.
Jur Grady and his family will provide a human face to this tragedy.
Pevara's MoA will factor into this - maybe she will rescue the hostages, somehow?

15. Moiraine was not burned out, but the Finn are more than capable of holding a channeler prisoner with their vast assortment of ter'angreal. There will be a thrilling and dangerous escape sequence, where Mat will lose his eye.
Noal's Compulsion will force him to try to murder Mat or Moiraine and he will die or decide to stay in Finnland forever.

16. It will turn out that Latra Posae went to the Finn in the end to deposit her memories and some items and Moiraine will get them.
Latra Posae's memories and knowledge will supplement LTT's and together with Min's philosophical insight, will allow Rand to figure out how to make the DO's prison whole.

17. Rand will now have full access to LTT's memories and will know the Song(s). He will teach the Aiel.
There aren't going to be any new Nym, but what a ter'angreal can do, (some) channelers can do also, if not as well. Rand (maybe with Aviendha's help) will teach them what to do or explain enough for them to figure it out, if he lacks that Talent himself.
In the end, mixed circles will be required to accomplish (some of) what a Nym does and that will pave the road for future acceptance of channelers by the populace, despite all the mis-use of OP by the Dark side.
Ogier never lost their part of the Song(s), IMHO.

18. Oh, yea, it will turn out that Rand touching TP was Moridin's plot and that he never expected Semi to actually bring Rand to Shayol Ghul.

19. Borderlanders will be dealt with by Nynaeve, Moiraine or, stars help me, Faile, not Rand. Somehow an attack/assassination attempts will ensue and Tenobia and maybe more of Borderland royals will get killed.

20. Elayne's BA prisoners will break out and cause some more havoc.

21. The WT will send AS and soldiers to support Lan at Tarwyn's gap and he will hold out until the Borderlanders return, barely, however:

22. We will learn that Aginor has been transmigrated yet again and given the very last chance - to clear Machin Shin out of the Ways, since he is such a construct specialist. And he will finally succeed at a task, Dun-Dun-Dun! Needless to say that Ogier "watching" the Waygates will be wholly insufficient to prevent the Shadowspawn hordes flooding into Randland.

Oh, yea, these people will die:

Alanna. I have expected the Shadow to bump her off before now, frankly, she is such a target. DFs know about her bonding Rand.

Bashere and Tenobia. Gotta clear the way for Faile. Yay? :(.

Leane. She will be either killed by a Blood Knife or whilst helping Egwene to fight Mesaana.

Jur Grady.

One of the BA hunters will be killed by a Blood Knife. Hopefully not Saerin!
Henry Loose
139. schrodinger
I predict that: There will be no Shara or Sharans in the last two books.

Terez: I really like your theories concerning Rand. Very well constructed. More evidence for Moiraine being the one to let him die could be in Min's viewing of her, that without her, Rand would fail, although she could do that simply by staying away if her only role is to let him die. I think it will be a far more proactive role, where Rand, Moiraine, and Alivia form a circle and use Callandor, in an effort similar to the cleansing of Saidin, except this time to separate Moridin's soul from Rand's. The result will be a dead, and separate Rand (Moridin will also die, but be brought back by the DO). Another similar instance: Mat's separation from the SL dagger, apparently, its influence is still there a little bit, but it was separated with a weaker Sa'angreal, so maybe Callandor will be more effective.
From there it will be as you predict, Nyn. will pull him out of TAR, Avi. El. and Min will bond him again (or maybe they won't have to do it again).
LewsTherin
140. MikeDeepo
No one seems to have mentioned this, but I cannot help but wonder if, since Mat is about to "break all the rules," the 'Finn will be free to break some rules as well. Specifically, has anyone considered the possibility of the 'Finn taking his memories BACK? After all, if one side breaks a treaty, the other side is no longer bound by it either.
LewsTherin
141. chewynewyork
I have to say that I have never been part of a prediction thread, so I will try to contribute something meaningful and worthwhile.

I think we will see the wrapping-up of the Tower of Ghenji storyline, and we will see a few glimpses into the world of the Aelfinn/Elfinn. I think Mat's character arc will come full circle, in a sense, as he deals with things after he's fully accepted the responsibility of helping save the world from becoming, well...Hell. lol

I think the forces of the Dark will make all of their positions more apparent, drawing the lines in the sand, so to speak. Since most of the original Forsaken are kaput, the remainder will have to step up to the plate and start causing some serious chaos.

This evil uprising will naturally lead to a main stronghold, which would be The Black Tower. The Aes Sedai will be forced to deal with the Asha'man, and perhaps this will be the common ground upon which Rand and them will finally meet.

Taim will buy the farm, I also predict. Maybe by one of the Forsaken. I can't totally be sure of that last part, but I can see him paying dearly for some kind of failure. Cuz that's just how bad guys roll.

That's all I can scrape together off the top of me dome piece. Take it easy, all.
Karen Fox
142. thepupxpert
Tyran @ 111 - the topic of "who is Ilyena" was discussed during one of the recent re-reads and I tossed around the merging idea also, but I can't get past the logistics of merging the 3 wives into one person. I ultimately decided that Rand would come to the conclusion that Elayne was Ilyena reborn.
Justin Levitt
143. TyranAmiros
Terez @ multiple posts
Thanks for the Theoryland compilations of Brandon/Maria/RJ comments! I spent too many hours last night pouring through them :)

I'll just add that I think Alivia takes Moiraine to Rand, fulfilling the "helps Rand die" bit. I just want Moiraine to tell Rand she's proud of him before she washes away his exhaustion.

thepupxpert @ 142
I agree--I even called it loony--but I still think "three will be one" has to be more than just "a circle will use Callandor". Maybe if we didn't know about the flaw it would be enough, but I think it has to be more.

On the "heart-wrenching" scene. My guess is that it's not Rand's death, which will be a relief and amazingly cathartic. I think it's Noal sacrificing himself in the Tower of Ghenjei to bring Moiraine out, condemning himself to imprisonment in her stead.
Henry Loose
144. schrodinger
Regarding the 3 wives: perhaps Rand was supposed to have one love per age, in the AoL it was Ilyena, who was probably reborn as Elayne. So maybe either Min or Avi were a love from the first age, and one was supposed to be in love with him this age. But something happened, and he met all three in this age. Of course, this could get a little awkward around age 7. Hmmm... seven wives...
As I was going to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
Each wife had seven sacks
Each sack had seven cats
Each cat had seven kits
Kits, cats, sacks, wives
How many were going to St Ives?

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again... but apparently nursery rhymes linger a little.
LewsTherin
145. jetmor28
I think that when Rand was told to live he must die that it ment he would have to die, Miorine theory, and when they bring him back through TOR he would have the memories from his past lifes like Birgitte when she came out of TOR. He could use the information to defeat the DO.

Also wondering if the Finn world could be conected to TOR in some way. they gave Mat memories (mabey from past lives?) and time is strange there to, Mat would have been in there for a week in the waste, he couldn't have hung from that tree for a week (no food or water).
Henry Loose
148. schrodinger
actually, the word "met" could mean that he met them going to St Ives in either direction. The ambiguity of the language leaves both answers as plausible. Also, zero is an acceptable answer, as it asks:
Kits, cats, sacks, wives
How many were going to St Ives?
So zero in one direction, and 2401 in the other.

However, since it is a riddle, the correct answer is 1.
Jonathan Levy
149. JonathanLevy
Regarding the 'Little thing which has gone completely unnoticed and which will play a crucial role in the finale':

When Nynaeve is battling Moghedien, and the latter is talking to her to distract her, she talks about knowing what the stars are, and 'other worlds' that can be traveled to.

Wouldn't it be a major bummer if that 'little thing' was a surviving 2nd-age colony on the moon? "Why yes, we've been thinking about how to defeat the dark one for the last 3,000 years, all the answers are in this nice powerpoint slide. What, kill the dark one forever? That's in file B. Seeing faces because you crossed Balefire streams? Take two Tylenol and call me in the morning. Need to rescue Moiraine? Take this Get-Out-Of-Elfinnland-Free card. Unhealable DO/Mashadar wounds? Try this antifungal cream, works every time. Dying and living again? Been, there, done that, I recommend ResurrectionInjection(tm), better than the rest."
Theresa Gray
150. Terez27
Isilel@134 - I have also considered that Siuan would be tasked with Verin's book. I don't see Gawyn being involved, though. @138, I think Alanna has to stay alive long enough to spread the news of Rand's death, probably in Tear. His death will break the bond; she might die after that but not for the purpose of breaking the bond.

TyranAmiros@143 - I'm glad you have made some use of it. There is good stuff in the interviews; we have used them for discussion for years, but it used to be a major pain in the ass to track them down, not to mention remembering which link to use to find what you were looking for.

schrodinger@139 - Re: the three-one prophecy...I've decided not to touch that one until after TOM. It won't come into play until AMOL, and I don't see much need to start theorizing about the events in AMOL just yet. There are a couple of exceptions, like the theory about how Rand will be brought back to life, but I've mainly put so much detail into that one to convince people that Rand will die in TOM, before the Last Battle is won. If I want to convince people of that, I have to convince them that Rand can be brought back from the dead. I've also thrown out some ideas on the Seanchan truce and some other things that will probably be in AMOL, but I've put the most thought into the events of TOM, and I think that things like the three-one prophecy and the sealing of the Bore need more clues.

Re: Min's viewing that Rand will almost surely fail without Moiraine...I mentioned that @122. Before TGS, I assumed the viewing would have something to do with Rand's laughter and tears, and the reintegration. I'm glad it was Tam instead - that reunion is something we've been waiting for since book 1, and it was not what anyone expected it to be at all. Anyway, since TGS most people have assumed that she will come from 'Finnland with some info that will help Rand seal the Bore or something. But I think that is rather random and a little deus ex machina. This role for Moiraine hearkens back to foreshadowing in book 1, and is also quite a bit different from what people expect of her reunion with Rand.

One thing I should have addressed earlier re: Moiraine is that she will likely still be bound by the Oaths if she's not stilled or burned out (which I don't think she will be). In that case, she will have to be convinced that she is not using the Power as a weapon. I think that is entirely possible, and also, I would not be surprised if she has a moment similar to Aviendha's moment at the Cleansing, when the knowledge of the rings told her that to go to Rand would be disastrous.

I was thinking that Min and maybe Elayne could be nearby, since Min can't channel, and Elayne's pregnancy interferes with her ability, but it's hard to see them being there when Moiraine shows up. Aviendha will presumably not have returned from Rhuidean yet, and I am thinking Nynaeve will have gone to Lan, or maybe she gets caught up in the battle somehow.
T C
151. Freelancer
scimystic@85

Rand and Moridin cannot share souls with Calian and Shivan (the brother and sister who herald the end of an age), as those two were among the Heroes called forth by the Horn in Falme. So their souls were between incarnations in T'a'R, while Ishamael and Rand are inhabiting flesh.


Richman2000@86

Mat may need iron for the dragon's eggs, but the cannons themselves will be forged of bronze.


Azrever@105

It's just you, because Noal is no darkfriend. He was used and abused by Ishamael, and his memories of those events have been blocked.


Speradigm@113

I'm fairly sure that this question was asked of Brandon, and that he answered that this particular vision (a Seanchan bearing a sword climbing up to save Egwene from a cliff) has not yet been met. And yes, Tuon has admitted that she could learn to channel.


Schrodinger@148

The speaker in the riddle didn't say that he came across the wives, kits, cats, or sacks. He only met a man. So the only answers with reasonable value are one and two. The speaker himself alone, or possibly he and the man he met, but there's no saying that the man he met was also going to St. Ives. So, one is the only valid answer.
Jon King
152. jkingdude
lots of comments here but I'll throw in my 2 cents:

I think Rand may be in Seanchan. I believe he will sit on the Crystal throne (Min's viewing of Rand sitting on a chair and the owner of the chair was murderously angry) which I also believe is a kind of terengreal which lays a kind of compulsion on anyone in the area (maybe even anyone who has ever been in its presence) that demands obedience to the person sitting on the throne. This would also 'bind the nine moons' to him.

I think Noal will be the 3rd person with Mat and Thom to head into the tower. On a side note, I think Olver is Gaidal Cain and it would be a kewl coincidence if he sneeks into the tower as well, seperate from Mat's group, to cause some kind of comotion or maybe even get his 3 wishes or questions or both...

We know that Galad meets up with Perrin but there are 2 possible outcomes to the situation with Morgase: if she sees him first she might try to avoid him, failing that she will tell him to ignore that she is there and of course Galad being Galad will probably go away at first but finally decide to do the 'right thing' and 'rescue' Morgase causing a skirmish that almost kills her. Or the much quicker version and he sees her first, assumes she is being held against her will by Perrin the 'darkfiend' and tries to rescue her immediately, causing a big skirmish and almost killing her. On a another side note, Berelain finally gets her just deserts when she falls for Galad and he probably will not see her at all (Min's viewing said she would fall head over heels, nothing about his feelings)

I think there will be a battle with the 2 main factions in the black tower. Taim's group and Logain's group will both use AS and some will die. Some may call for assistance from the White Tower and AS from Egwene will come in support and she will face down Rand about his letting this situation go unsupervised for too long.

I am not so sure about this last one...but there may be something odd or different about Aviendha when she returns from Rhudian. I suspect that there may be a trigger within the spires that when the fog/protection around the city lifts, it may change its function from just a memory replay of ancestors to maybe a information provider, giving Aviendha perfect ancestral memory recall (thinking she might be decendant from one of AS from the age of legends and be able to retain knowledge of the One Power). This idea comes from the mention of one of the other wise ones that it was predicted that Aveindha was to become one of the most powerful wise ones in history (and I dont think there were referring to her strength in channeling) and also the mention of Min that 'Aviendha is going to have quadruplets, the babies would be healthy but something was odd about that...'

There are more but these are the major ones...
Theresa Gray
153. Terez27
@jkingdude - RJ has confirmed many times that Olver is not Gaidal Cain. He's too old.
Eric Neal
154. ewneal
jkingdude @ 152

Interesting theory about Aviendha...

Has anyone we know of entered the Ter-Angreal in Rhudian since the fog was lifted?

Thanks for your post!
Theresa Gray
155. Terez27
ewneal@154 - Only Bendhuin, the Shaido clan chief candidate. At least, I assume he's entered by now.
Henry Loose
156. schrodinger
Terez@150 but that's exactly my point. The 3 becoming one thing will happen at the end of ToM (I think). In fact, its how Rand will die.
Theresa Gray
157. Terez27
Yeah. I doubt it though. Doesn't really fit with Min's viewing. She says they seem to merge, and then one dies but the other does not....and there's nothing to suggest that it is possible, either. I don't think the dagger is really comparable. It also IMO doesn't have the same dramatic potential (too pre-meditated). But to each his own. ;)
diane heath
158. jadelollipop
Am reading KOD. The Seanchan soldiers at Jurador tried to enter Luca's show without paying. The Standard Bearer's comments to Mat foreshadow his placement as General over all of the Seanchan forces
KOD chapter 7 page 200
" And what about you? From the look of you,you might be made an officer and get to give me orders."
She sounded amused by the notion.
LewsTherin
159. Dembden56
I was just wondering...

If Mat is going to Ceamlyn Briggiet be there. And she knows something about Finnland and the tower (she tells Perrin about it in the wolf dream, and Olver in the flesh). Couldn't she possibly help Mat?
Theresa Gray
160. Terez27
She will be there, but since she has lost most of her memories, she might not remember anything pertinent about it any more. They are going away gradually, and it's been a while since she gave Olver the hints he already offered.
diane heath
161. jadelollipop
Reading KOD and Luca told his showfolk that rather than turn back to Ebou Dar (after seeing the dead Shiotan village) they should press on to Lugard, Caemlyn and Tar Valon. I know that Mat will/should reach Caemlyn way ahead of Luca's show (due to Verin's aid if nothing else). Think of the reunion of Luca with the SG's. Will Perrin,Rand, or Egwene ever meet this guy?
James Jones
162. jamesedjones
133 Terez27

I just don't buy it. First off, it would suck after the ending to LOC, and RJ has a way of making the second event much more emphatic. Second, because it scares me to see BwS (yes, I forgot to add it the first time, Free) try to make either of those examples more emphatic than Dumai's Wells.

There's only one group of female channelers left that would hurt Rand, that could be stopped by a team led by one of our taveren. The Black Tower is the other really dramatic possibility, but I don't see any way that that could happen with Perrin leading instead of Logain (especially given Perrin's location at the moment).

I'm not sure about my hypothesis, but it feels a little more in-line with the dedication the Seanchan have to their prophecies and myths.
Theresa Gray
163. Terez27
@james - it's not for sale. ;) Also, Min's viewing of women who can channel hurting him is separate from her viewing of Perrin, even though it was synonymous with Perrin's first time to be there for Rand. As for Min saying women who can channel will hurt him more than once...don't forget Semirhage and Elza (and Sorilea).
diane heath
164. jadelollipop
Just a thought re: the belief that Demandred was the fake Rand that caused trouble with Masema. Masema had a letter from Suroth who we know is a DF. Did she give the letter to M at behest of Semirhage? Or was the prologue of KOD the first time she knew Semirhage.
Alice Arneson
165. Wetlandernw
jadelollipop - There's a good chance it was Semirhage who instructed Suroth, though I don't think we can be 100% sure. Since Suroth was posing as Anath, she was in contact with Suroth as early as Winter's Heart, though Suroth didn't know who she was. By Crossroads of Twilight, she's for sure getting instructions from Semirhage, since that's when they start setting up the meeting between the fake "Tuon" and Rand. I would guess it goes back farther than CoT; probably pretty early on, though possibly not as early as Falme. (I'm betting it was, though. The only question would be when Semirhage actually escaped the Bore, but I think by that time they were all loose.)

It's a good thought, that Semirhage was the one manipulating Masema all along, although we also know that she was in cahoots with Demandred. Still, depending on how much Semirhage was able to do in TAR after she was captured... According to Cooper's Chronology, she was captured on April 9 (a.k.a. Aine 26, or Series Day #749) and Masema saw his vision of the Dragon that night; the battle at Malden (and Faile killing Masema) was on April 10. (Incidentally, Mat's battle with the Seanchan at Molvaine Gap was also on April 9.) If for some reason Mr. Cooper is off by a day (since I don't know what he was basing things on, exactly) and all three events were on the same day (rather than Perrin's battle being a day later than the other two confrontations), it would be completely possible for it to have been Semirhage appearing. Even so, since she and Demandred are working together, they'd have set it up.

And I never actually noticed before that all three events were nearly simultaneous. Semirhage was clearly behind the Seanchan trying to kill Tuon (did she know Mat was with Tuon?), though she wasn't participating directly in the pursuit. Semirhage was also clearly behind the ambush for Rand. Was someone (either Semirhage or Demandred) orchestrating events around Perrin? Or was it just that they had this cunning plan to take out all three at the same time, and Masema failed to do his job because Perrin's plans (Battle of Malden) got in the way? Or was it the Pattern, making all three attempts (and failures!) happen at the same time? In any case, pretty cool to discover that all three major events happened either on the same day or within the course of two days.
diane heath
166. jadelollipop
I knew Semirhage was Anath but was not sure how much contact Suroth had with her in that guise. I know Semi tried to have Suroth send the Seanchan out to kill Tuon by hinting that Suroth could replace her. HA
It is quite possible that the attempts on lives of the TR3 were co-ordinated. The attack on Mat in Maderin is followed by the attack on Perrin at the Manufactory. Both boys show a lack of sense as neither one can begin to guess who would attack them!!!
Gunvor Andersson
167. markga
Terez27

Olver can be Gadal Cain – even if the latter was seen in Tel'aran'rhiod after he was born - because time doesn’t work the same way in Tel'aran'rhiod as in the world of time.

And I believe Olver is the third person besides Mat and Thom on the cover above. The artist was probably told to draw a man in a black hat with a funny knife, an old man and a boy, but they forgot to tell him the age of the boy.
Theresa Gray
168. Terez27
@markga - RJ said it does not work that way; time is different but it never flows backwards. Also, they'll never let a child go into the Tower of Ghenjei.

@jadelollipop - It would work well with the theories that Demandred is either posing as Roedran or using him as a proxy. His motivation probably had to do with weakening the countries south of Andor in order to provide an easy path for Seanchan invasion.
Alice Arneson
169. Wetlandernw
markga - There's also the little detail that RJ clearly said the Olver is NOT Gaidal Cain:
Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q: He's too old.
RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
diane heath
170. jadelollipop
He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.


I have seen many still claim Olver as Cain but am not acquainted with any theories about what his real reason is. (Unless it was to supply the rules of Snakes and Foxes) Also couldn't Olver try to sneak in because of his love for 1. Jain Farstrider stories 2.Noal's stories. 3. Mat He doesn't have to be GC to have a role in ToG
Theresa Gray
171. Terez27
Olver is the one that told them how to get in the Tower. I imagine he'll do something important, but I don't know that we have any real evidence to work with on that. He might be the one to suggest that they cheat. Mat doesn't seem to have figured that part out yet, though I could be wrong; he and Thom hinted at secret plans in TGS.
Brandon D
172. Ishmayl
Terez, in response to your "Why I Think Rand Will Be Ripped out of T'A'R" essay, I have one main issue with it, just based on one thing. According to everything we know about The World of Dreams, the Heroes of the Horn who are bound there, and the previous lives of said heroes, aren't the personalities, abilities, and characteristics of the Heroes in T'A'R likely to be extremely different from their real-world counterparts? Birgette has worn many different names, had different personalities, etc; Lews Therin was a very different man from Rand. The actual Hero soul of these people is likely very different from their current living counterparts, isn't it? Not trying to pick a fight, but this rings oddly with me for some reason. I could (obviously) be very wrong in this, and don't have any wall-of-texts to back me up, so maybe you'll shut me down! :)
Alice Arneson
173. Wetlandernw
FWIW, the quote I gave above re: Olver was from the CoT tour; as of that point he clearly still had a significant contribution to make. It could well be that he made that contribution in KoD when he told Mat & Thom about the Tower of Ghenjei and how to enter it. (Chapter 10, if you want to grab your book and scan it.) So... he may or may not have a further part to play.
Theresa Gray
174. Terez27
Ishmayl@172 - Everything we've seen indicates that even though Heroes are reborn over and over, deep down they're always the same person. This is why Birgitte doesn't have MPD. Rand has been getting past life memories for a while, and it hasn't changed who he is. The soul is nature; the incarnation is nurture of the soul into a specific personality. In other words, the person is always the same, but the names and faces change, and the experiences.
Janet Hopkins
175. JanDSedai
And I repeat (with tongue firmly in cheek) that we know that Mazrim Taim is *not* Demandred, and Olver is *not* Gaidal Cain. So, therefore, Olver *is* Demandred!

After all, Olver is wise beyond his years, knowledgable about arcane subjects, and a womanizer. He's gotta be someone else!
john mullen
176. johntheirishmongol
I personally think Olver has done his duties and that Mat figures it out from there.

Some of you are very clever, guessing that Rand will be ripped out of TAR, but I suspect it will be much different than that. I think the only way for the 2 wounds to heal is for him to die first, and then be reborn. But it won't be a 3 day thing, more like a Jack Bauer death on 24, where his heart stops but they jump start him again.

I miss Verin already.

I think what Moiraine will bring to the table is that she will have some clues to help Rand defeat the DO that she got while she was imprisoned.

Someone will admit to killing Az, and everyone will post that I knew it all along.

Galad will be the one to kill Slayer.

If I think up any more I will add it later.
David
177. whoami
I'm going to make a somewhat obvious prediction that was discussed in a much earlier thread.

The ripples in reality that Faile experienced were the last three seals shattering. The Bore has been re-opened. This is evidenced by the storm in TGS.

I predict that we will start to see some consequences of this in ToM. We won't have to wait for AMoL for the Dark One's Hand to begin reaching out (apologies to Shaidar Haran, but I'm expecting something more).
diane heath
178. jadelollipop
I just read about the ripples in reality earlier this week. I figured it was an example of "bubbles of evil" and dead villages appearing/disappearing. Also like the village in TGS that Mat visited. The bubbles of evil and dead villages (Shiota?) are examples from RJ that lead me to believe that the zombie village was also from RJ not just BrS.
I do expect we will see Lan in ToM as the towers of Malkier could be another reason for the title. I also maintain we will end on a high (happy) note before the big ending.
David
179. whoami
jadelollipop@178

Go back and look at The Shadow Rising, when Rand is in the columns. There was a single similar ripple at the moment the Bore was opened.

I think there were three ripples this time because three seals popped, each ripple larger than the last.
T C
180. Freelancer
johntheirishmongol@176

Whatever happens to Rand, the Christ parallel which has been foreshadowed, must be played out.

"...but Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead."

"I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse."
~ Halwin Norry

Whether from T'a'R, or a more mundane set of circumstances, Rand will be out of commission for three days, and it will be Nynaeve who intervenes, not a case of a quick application of CPR. A point regarding prophecy is that they never speak of actions that don't include a spark of the miraculous. What value is there in predicting a common event which can happen by natural means? Rand resuscitated Mat by such a method at Rhuidean, without the Power, so it isn't a terribly special thing.

Also, when we learn for certain that Graendal killed Asmodean, I will indeed feel like gloating, but I won't post that you knew it all along.

There is nothing in the story to suggest Galad has any claim upon the office of Slayer's executioner. Lan, Rand and Perrin each have stronger cases. Perrin seems the logical favorite in most minds, and I don't directly disagree, but I think he had his shot (intended), and that it won't be Perrin.
Sydo Zandstra
181. Fiddler
Freelancer@180

Also, when we learn for certain that Graendal killed Asmodean, I will indeed feel like gloating, but I won't post that you knew it all along.

Which is right, because you didn't formulate/invent that theory, and there haven't been that many people here who said otherwise...
Alice Arneson
182. Wetlandernw
Freelancer - ROFL!! I nearly got pasta up my nose. "I won't post that you knew it all along." Oh, help! Thanks for a good laugh.
A Jeeves
183. Artur al Yorks
Many of you have postulated about 'how will it all end', what comes after TG. There are hints that a new age will begin, a new age like ours today. There's the schools that Rand is establishing with steam engines etc on the drawing board. An age without channelers? Does this mean that the source (or access to it) is no longer possible?
It could explain how Rand is able to defeat the DO. He destroys (exhausts) or denies use of the source(s). ......... and they all live happily ever after. :o)
Not long now before the re-emergence of Moraine. an old friend too long missed.
A Jeeves
185. Artur al Yorks
180. Freelancer

Also, when we learn for certain that Graendal killed Asmodean, I will indeed feel like gloating, but I won't post that you knew it all along.

I've long thought that is was Demandred. For no better reason than that he is 'the man of mystery', a hidden player, but a player non-the-less. He first appears (pov) in LoC which RJ intimated contained a strong hint. Is this 'strong'? Perhaps not, but whatever he meant it was certainly obscure. Also Demandred' is said to be somewhere "in the South", that fits too, though I realise that distance is no barrier to the Chosen. But two of them (he & Sammy)in the same region is bound to raise resentments if cause is ever needed with these 'friends' of the dark.
I'm ready to be shot down ........ if RJ has discounted Demandred, I missed it or have forgotten ....... so many threads to keep track of I sometimes feel like a male recruit attempting the weaves for the right of passage to become a soldier.
Bye all ..... chuffed to follow you WoT fans!
Alice Arneson
187. Wetlandernw
Artur al Yorks @185 - I'm confused. I realize you said that you thought Demandred killed Asmodean, but I'm not quite sure about the rest. Are you saying that Demandred is someone in particular, or only that you think Demandred killed Asmodean?
Theresa Gray
188. Terez27
whoami@177 - Perrin and Faile both experienced the ripples, on different days. That seems to suggest it wasn't the seals. Also, there would be no need to build up Rand breaking the seals if they were already broken.

freelancer@180 - Rand's CPR didn't count as Mat's death, as I'm sure you know. I don't think it would count for Rand's, either. The prophecies are from the same source. Their answers are always true so long as they are in relation to your own future, and they did not say, 'to live, you must almost die'. If that was all that was needed, then what they did say - 'to live, you must DIE' - would be untrue. Same goes for 'to live, you must fake your death'.

Artur al Yorks@185 - Demandred appears to have exonerated himself in POV:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
PROLOGUE - The First Message

"Rahvin is dead, Great Lord. Yesterday." There was pain. Euphoria too strong became pain quickly. His arms and legs twitched. He was sweating, now. "Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence."

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and – could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce – there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter – each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

Another point pricked him. The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he.
LewsTherin
189. Saidar'edIt
I predict that, at or near the end of ToM, Elaida will have a Foretelling announcing the imminent beginning of Tarmon Gaidon, and die from the force of the Foretelling, a la Gitara Moroso. Her death would conveniently save Egwene from the moral dilemmas of whether to attempt rescuing her and what to do with her once rescued.

"Suffa" will be one of the damane brought along with the Seanchan delegation to work out a peace agreement with Westland leaders -- Rand (if he's alive), Elayne (if she's not on a boat with Rand), Perrin, Galad, Egwene (if she doesn't have her head on the chopping block of her Dreams as part of a cliffhanger), etc. -- so she'll experience the mortification of all of them seeing her leashed before she dies.


Man-O-Manetheren @109: I think that in the Last Battle Rand (and Moridin) will destroy the Wheel and the Pattern, liberating everyone from the burdens of fate and kicking off linear time.
Sanderson's "little thing" could be Rand's reflection on balefire when he sees Mat and Aviendha alive at the end of TFoH: he would destroy the entire Pattern if it meant they could live.
But I guess I should be saving this for the AMoL prediction thread.
T C
190. Freelancer
Terez27@188

By referring to Rand's resuscitation of Mat, I was only pointing out that it was an action which could be considered relatively mundane, because anyone could have done the same under similar circumstances. So to suggest that the event related to the Aelfinn's answer about Rand would encompass a similar "near-death", where he is resuscitated by Nynaeve, whether via Healing or not, isn't adequately miraculous.

Yes, I know that Mat wasn't considered dead in Rhuidean. And yes, I agree that to fit the answer from the Aelfinn requires Rand to be truly most sincerely dead. I've never been among those that thought that Rand wouldn't die, only that he wouldn't remain in such a state. That's why we've put up with Nynaeve all this time, isn't it? She has no greater function in the story than bringing Rand back from the dead, by hook or by crook.

And thanks for pulling the text where Demandred proves he didn't know that Asmodean was dead. Saved me the trouble.


Which brings me to considering that we have folks among us who have not been obssessed with TWoT as long as others, and may not yet be aware of the myriad sources of useful information available on virtually every aspect of Robert Jordan's masterpiece saga. For those curious comrades and companions on this journey, the following is a non-comprehensive compendium of links to the most active and viable of such sources:

Dragonmount
The Thirteenth Depository
Encyclopaedia WoT
Seven Spokes: A Wheel of Time Chronology
Tellings of the Wheel: The Chronology of The Wheel of Time
Read & Find Out

I get the feeling I'm missing one. Well, I'm sure that Terez27 will be able to help with that...







Ok, ok, I jest. Not to be outdone by the others, the most frenetic, fanatic, and fantasizing of them all,
Theoryland

Oh, and just in case this new predictions thread is anyone's first foray into TOR's extensive library of WoT fora, let us not overlook the wonderful Wheel of Time Re-read, hosted by the ever-intriguing and clever Leigh Butler, she of WoT-FAQ fame.
T C
191. Freelancer
Scanning back through comments...

jkingdude@152
I think Rand may be in Seanchan. I believe he will sit on the Crystal throne (Min's viewing of Rand sitting on a chair and the owner of the chair was murderously angry) which I also believe is a kind of terengreal which lays a kind of compulsion on anyone in the area (maybe even anyone who has ever been in its presence) that demands obedience to the person sitting on the throne. This would also 'bind the nine moons' to him.

According to the BBOBA, the Crystal Throne is in fact a ter'angreal, one which does not require channeling to operate, and which inspires awe in all who approach it. Not Compulsion, and it seems by this description to be an area effect, which would not be permanently implanted on those subject to it. However, once someone has experienced an unexpected sensation like that from another person (or believe it was caused by the person), it is very hard to mentally separate that sensation from the memory of said person, making the throne an extremely effective tool of influence.

Many folks believe that the reference to Rand sitting on a chair and making the owner murderously angry (a dream of Egwene's, BTW, not a Min viewing), is in fact the throne of Andor. When Davram Bashere first meets Rand in the Palace, and states that he heard Morgase was dead:
"They're both dead." Rand said bleakly. He sat down on the throne, his head resting against the moonstone Lion of Andor. The throne had been sized for women. "I killed Gaebril, but not before he killed Morgase."
The problems with this theory are that Morgase is its "owner" at the time Rand does so, but no longer is, and as far as we know, has never heard that he sat on her throne. Elayne might have become aware that he'd sat on the throne, or at least surmised that he might have, but she would be a bit less than "murderously angry" at Rand about anything. We know she wasn't pleased at seeing her Mother's throne set up "as a trophy" as she thought it, but that still doesn't quite satisfy Egwene's dream.
Birgit
192. birgit
Morgase knows that Rand sat on the throne because Niall told her.

He has sat on the Lion Throne, used it for audiences, but I suppose it was too small, being made for women. He has put it up as a trophy of his conquest and replaced it with his own throne, in the Grand Hall of your Royal Palace.


LOC Prologue
diane heath
193. jadelollipop
A prediction for TofM re: Facing the Amyrlin's anger.
I had previously thought that the cause of Egwene's anger at Rand would be due to a truce with the Seanchan. Egwene has a blind spot re: them but Rand's failure to taveren Tuon into a truce in TGS delayed that at best.
In KOD we find that Logain at Rand's behest moved the Ashaman not loyal to Taim to Arad Doman and Illian

More than half the Black Tower is in Arad Doman
and Illian. I sent all the men with bonded Aes Sedai except those here,as you ordered. . . .Taim wasn't pleased. . .One thing pleased him though: that I didn't take any of his cronies. There are 41 of those now . . .he has above 50 more in his special classes


Merise and Narishma met with the Hall (they were supposed to meet with Egwene)and told them that 47 Aes Sedai loyal to Egwene could bond Ashaman.

They go to the Black Tower in Caemlyn where the DF Ashaman are. (Another example of non communication)
as if the Aes Sedai had known they could have avoided the chance of bonding a DF
Alice Arneson
194. Wetlandernw
cross-posting...

Nothing to do with this thread, but I thought y'all might like to see this. Lannis already scored a Blue Ajah appearance (as Lannis!!) in TofM - anyone else going to jump in?
Tricia Irish
195. Tektonica
Birgitte@192:

Are we supposed to believe Niall? He'd say anything to get Morgase to yield her country, and herself. How dos Niall know Rand sat on the throne? It certainly was a brief rest, if I remember correctly. Then he set it up above and sat in his own chair. Elayne misinterpreted that in TAR....which I find irritating. She should think better of him.
Debbie Solomon
196. dsolo
Wow! The amount of knowledge here re: the books and prophecies is incredible. My only guesses about ToM, other than the obvious trip to Ghenji, is that Perrin and Mat's storylines (re: prophecies) will finally be moved along. I think that Mat will have some influence in helping Rand bind the 9 Moons to him. Egwene and Rand were featured heavily in the last one, so it's time for Perrin, Mat and oh yeah, Elayne to tie up their plot lines. At the end, all of our heroes should be heading for the big meetup at TG. I don't know if the other bloodknives will do their thing in this book or the big finale, but I'm hoping they take out a few Black Ajah. Since we're going to be in Andor, the Black Tower should also figure in this. I hadn't even thought about all the DF Ashaman being there for the bonding. However, there is also all the "fruit" from the Two Rivers that Taim harvested. Hopefully, the blood of Manetheren will be strong enough to resist. Perhaps, Alivia will somehow help Nynaeve with resurrecting Rand. His death may be along the lines of Harry Potter, he can't completely die because of the 2 tainted wounds. Maybe it will take 3 days of draining those from his "dead" body before he comes back. The three women kneeling over the body will be El, Avi and Min, because they know he's not really dead. I'm looking for something to happen to Alanna to break that bond. Oh yeah, Demandred will turn out to be..... Cadsuane! Seriously, no clue except something to do with the sneaky Borderlanders and all their shady AS.
LewsTherin
197. t0kengirl
Just a thought - we had so much foreshadowing for 13 channelers and 13 Mydraal could turn a channeler to the shadow. Is that what's been happening in the Black Tower in Taim's special classes?
Eric Neal
198. ewneal
tokengirl @ 197

I agree... it seems the 13/13 thing will have to come into play at some time and the Black Tower is as likely a place for that to happen as any other. I wonder if dsolo @ 196 has identified it with his comment about the 'fruit' from the Two Rivers that Taim has harvested.

It would be a big blow the Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve to see their friends and neighbors turned to the shadow, especially if they trusted them for something important and then were betrayed by them.

Good post!
Theresa Gray
199. Terez27
Brandon has near confirmed we will see 13x13. Also, another good place for it to happen would be with the Borderlanders.
LewsTherin
200. sleepinghour
ewneal @ 198

It seems likely that the Two Rivers men at the Black Tower will play some important role. Turning them to the Shadow would be a clever move since it'd be a harsh blow to Rand--especially when it was Rand himself who ordered Taim to recruit them. I can also see them trying to save Pevara's group or the rebel AS.

As a side note, part of me really wants to see Cenn Buie as one of the Two Rivers channelers. :)
a a-p
201. lostinshadow
Does anyone think the supergirls will take the AS test? and if they do will be be offered glimpses?
Theresa Gray
202. Terez27
@lostinshadow - The Aes Sedai test seems to be almost completely controlled by the women running the ter'angreal; Moiraine had good reason to believe that Elaida used Moiraine's dead father in her last scenario in order to cause her grief. They might take the test, but I doubt it. The Oaths....depends on whether there is a revolution in the works for the plot. Maybe, maybe not.
LewsTherin
203. history buff
I must admit to a small obsession. I realized that
Mat must be the son of battles and "break the nations" must mean the borderlanders roaming about, and immediately following this, the battle of Austerlitz sprang to my mind, and will not leave.

Austerlitz fits the characters and circumstances like a glove.
A Jeeves
204. Artur al Yorks
187. Wetlandernw

Are you saying that Demandred is someone in particular, or only that you think Demandred killed Asmodean?

I know it seems that Demandred was ignorant of Asmo's death, but appearances can be deceptive. Not convinced, only suspicious.
What bothers me is Demandred's hidden personality. We hear he likes to operate by 'proxy'(Graendal I think). Weiramon perhaps is his puppet, he (Dem')one of his minor hangeroners. If we've met him, and I suspect we have, he hasn't shown himself to be influential to us.
It's just a thought I have and I keep it mind whenever Weiramon is on screen. He does seem rather lucky to avoid death, or even harm it seems, when he is so reckless and eager to enter the fray. Perhaps he is being protected.
Theresa Gray
205. Terez27
We know we haven't met Demandred's alter ego as of KOD.
Eric Neal
206. ewneal
Are we certain that Asmodean is dead?

It would be an interesting, and very like Jordan, to portray one thing and then reveal it to be completely different from what we were led to believe.

Perhaps Asmodean was 'on assignment' to teach Rand and then was called away to serve another purpose. He could be much more competent and devious that he appeared in his persona as Jasin Natael, the Bard of the Dragon.
Heidi Byrd
207. sweetlilflower
If Asmo were not dead, then why would the DO refer to Asmodean as "the traitor"?
Theresa Gray
208. Terez27
The Dark One and RJ both confirmed that Asmodean is dead. RJ has also confirmed that the Dark One would have brought him back if he could have, but couldn't because of how and where he was killed.
T C
209. Freelancer
ewneal@206

You've read The Fires of Heaven, yes? Asmodean did not get called away, he got terminated.


sweetlilflower@207

Because Lanfear put it about among them that Asmodean had gone over to assist the Dragon Reborn, rather than the truth that she forced him into it. She told him she was going to do this, when she formed the shield on him. (we will never know if she lied about that shield on him being set to dissipate)


So, there has been recent discussion about when, how, and where Nynaeve will Heal death. I mean, we all know it's going to happen. What I want to know is, when will Rand get his hand back? Because I have believed that it would happen from the moment Semirhage burned it off. It was the recent release of the KoD eBook cover which reminded me of this. In fact, I used to think that Nynaeve figuring out how to restore Rand's missing hand would be a stepping stone to her figuring out how to Heal death. What makes me think this?

The Shadow Rising, "Questioners":
"Stilling is not a thing anyone would choose to study, you understand," Nynaeve continued. "It is generally accepted to be irreversible. What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

The phrase "generally accepted" is fascinating, in that such a disclaimer allows one to state another's opinion while retaining the freedom to disagree with it. Nynaeve is clearly not so dismissive about what is truly impossible, as we learn so many times. Then the kicker, that Healing stilling is just as impossible as Healing a missing hand. Well, she's done the one, and there's this guy with no left hand...

Anyway, if Terez27 is right, and Rand's death is "healed" by being pulled out of the World of Dreams, he'll have his hand back and the entire thought is moot. And I wonder, still I wonder.
LewsTherin
210. TheTrueDK
Tokengirl @ 197

Not likely. Remember, a circle requires a female channeler to form the circle, and there are strict guidelines on the balance of men and women in a circle. There almost always has to be fewer men than women, except in three cases: 2 men and 1 woman, 1 woman and one man, and two women and two men.

Unless some of the Black Ajah are assisting (which I doubt, since most of them believe that saidin is still tainted and, therefore, male channelers are dangerous), there is no easy way to form the circle of thirteen, and, it's likely that none except the forsaken know the weave to turn channelers toward the DO.
LewsTherin
211. Narlock
@210 if I recall correctly when turning a channeler to the DO is mentioned it states that it requires 13 channelers channeling through 13 myrdraal I dont think it ever mentions a circle
T C
212. Freelancer
TheTrueDK@210

The concept of a circle is never mentioned concerning 13x13.
"Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know -- Light send it has not been done! -- since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords -- Darkfriends who could channel -- weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal."
That description is saying that each channeller is employing a Fade as some sort of "angreal of shadowness", which each channeler could not do if they were all linked. Therefore, no barrier to it being done by Taim's pets in the Black Tower.
diane heath
213. jadelollipop
I am re-reading Gathering Storm (am currently reading Tuon's conversation with Beslan) It occurs to me that the Seanchan empire is much like the Roman Empire (take the oaths/keep them/go your own way). I rather think that the Seanchan empire will be a way of uniting the lands on both sides of the world after TG.
Hence the mention of a side story of Mat/Tuon in Seanchan proper.
Rand may have helped the Land of the Madmen as well since once the current crazy male channelers die off the new ones won't go insane.
Alice Arneson
214. Wetlandernw
FWIW, the idea of the circle in the 13/13 trick comes primarily from the BBoBA:
It was Semirhage who discovered that a circle of thirteen, using thirteen Myrddraal as a sort of filter, could turn anyone who could channel to the Shadow, though she invariably preferred to handle Aes Sedai herself.
So... depends on how accurate you think the BBoBA is in this regard. It must be considered, at least. While we know it's not 100% accurate, we also know that today's Aes Sedai (BA included) don't know everything accurately either, so there's a fair chance Sheriam either doesn't know that part, or left it out of the explanation.
Alice Arneson
215. Wetlandernw
Related to that...
Punisher: Have you ever thought about reinstituting some of the old ideas from earlier books? For example, in The Dragon Reborn you had a situation with thirteen dark sisters and thirteen Myrddraal to forcibly convert someone to the darker side of things. It seems you have abandoned that. Do you think you might have something like that pop up again at some unexpected moment? It doesn't seem realistic for the Black Ajah to abandon the idea.
RJ: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact it's a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.
Intentional or not, RJ did use the term "circle of thirteen" in his answer.
Alice Arneson
216. Wetlandernw
Thought I'd throw this in on the predictions thread, since it's the best place to go back and find things. I'm copying from the WH#9 thread, where we covered "A Lily in Winter" in which Elayne gets pregnant:

I don't think we'll see any of the babies unless there's a "several months/years later" epilogue on AMoL. I don't see the action stretching for another 4-5 months to allow for Elayne's babies, much less time for either Aviendha or Min to get pregnant and go anywhere near full term. For that matter, I'm betting that TofM will end approximately 3 days (maybe a week) after TGS, and AMoL will take a total of about 2 weeks. Which would have Elayne at around 20 weeks (our count) or halfway through her pregnancy.
A Jeeves
217. Artur al Yorks
Wetlandernw 216

.... I don't see the action stretching for another 4-5 months

I think you're right.
We know that Mat has to go to the ToG, and Perin has to come to terms with his wolf persona. Neither should take very long.
Other developments might by Rand & Egwayne resolving their unification, and of course an Ashaman split with Taim turning renagade.
All these things need to happen to set up the final book and TG.
I also wonder where the Ogier will fit in and possibly the Seanchan, Sea Folk, and Borderlanders (including Lan).
So many loose ends still. Some may carry over, but I doubt all. Time is short, the last battle is near.
diane heath
218. jadelollipop
Dragonmount has a thread discussing post TG nations.
Based on Tuon's thoughts in TGS about the need for order in Randland before she could return to Seanchan proper. (And in light of the post TG story RJ had in mind with Mat and Tuon in Seanchan proper) I think that we will see Tuon as Empress over Randland in total. Beslan is King of Altara (TGS) Elayne will remain Queen of Andor. Moraine/Thom will rule in Carhien. I like the idea presented at Dragonmount (by Luckers?) that Perrin will hold Ghealdan,the Two Rivers and Saldea. Lan and Nynaeve in Malkier or Borderlands. I can see the Aiel staying in Randland and either the Aiel or the Seanchan will settle in the Carlain Grasses. Rand could return to the Two Rivers but I think he will live in Rhuidean or Caemlyn
(hiding in plain sight maybe?)
LewsTherin
219. Valav
Moridin doesn't want Rand to die because he knows that he is linked to him via the Balefire incident at shadar logoth. (sp?) If Rand dies, so will a part of Moridin, that is if Moridin also doesn't expire as well, as with the warder bond. So if Rand figures this out he will kill himself, with crazy ex-damane's help and Moiraine. Meaning, the ex-damane and Moiraine will be linked with him when this happens and it will take both saidar and saidin to accomplish this. Rand can access the true power so, that coinciding with his side wounds from shadar logoth and the dark one would make Rand an excellent focal point in the sealing of the bore since he will have access to all four powers. He will also be breaking all the remaining seals at this point to bring the dark one into this world. Of course, this sealing will probably take place between Tel'aran'riod and their world which might explain how he might be brought back to life. It will take place in the pit of doom and he will die before an eclipse.

Rand's body is crap and he shares his mind with a crazy dead dude. When he is reborn at the end of the eclipse (on the same day) he takes over Moridin's body or is re-born by some knowledge Nynaeve has. Which will mean he can no longer channel, has no memories after the first time he channels, and doesn't have Lewis Therin in his head. If he takes over Moridin's body Nynaeve will rescue Lewis Therin from TAR. If Rand is rescued from TAR Lewis Therin will inhabit Moridin's corpse. At any rate it will finally be revealed that Rand is actually a construction of the shadow that was used to capture Lewis Therin's soul. I quote the following prophecy:

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream."

Moiraine will obviously be key to TG, I think when she comes out of the Tower, she will have a vast amount of knowledge. I do think Lan's bond will return to her, and I think that she will pass the bond to Nynaeve after she proves that she's not a little girl anymore. Noal will be revealed as Jain Farstrider before he enters the Tower. This info will decide his place as the other guy that goes with them. However, I think that Olver sneaks in last minute. Olver knows the layout of the tower by heart and so will give his playboard to Mat so the three can slpit up while Thom will try and sneak out Moiraine. The game is now 20 pieces to 4. These four will balance the odds so that one of them can make it to Moiraine. I think Mat will pull out his eye when he learns that the Finn can see what he sees. Maybe it affects only one eye though? Olver is somehow transformed into Gaidal Cain because of the Finn. (that's really far fetched though). And Noal will keep the Finn's busy while they suck his memories clean. I'm grasping here too, but could iron be blood? Theres a quantifiable amount of iron in our blood, maybe that could be used as a weapon as well.

Dragonmount will erupt while bloodknives ravage the remaining Tower and force the Aes Sedai to relocate. Somehow Eaganin Shipless or another Seanchan will help Egwene in this. That leads to a plan to strike back at the Seanchan empire and rescue captive Aes Sedai. Wherein Rand steps in to stop Egwene since he has made peace agreement with the Seanchan. This is when Egwene gets really pissed and tells off Rand. (She's always been slighty psychotic on the seanchan topic). Rand kneels to Egwene and expresses his hope that they can become allies, showing proof that Tower Reds and Rebel Aes Sedai have already bonded Ashaman. He needs her help to get rid of Taim's faction (where Padain Fain is currently) and the White Tower and Black Tower (Logain) will work together at this. Also, Mesaana either flees or is found out at this time, since the members of the underground Aes Sedai in charge of finding the Black Ajah are given full pardon to have every last sister re-swear her oaths on the Oath Rod. Verin's notes conain the complete dark prophecies.

Verin's note to Matt will force him to decide wether to save Moiraine soon or follow her orders. Perhaps this was a last attempt of Verin to convince the SHadow that she really was a DF. Of course, Verin knows that Mat will choose to save Moiraine in the end so no harm done. She might also slip in a code that lets him know where the horn is if he shows the letter to Egwene.

Perrin's co-mingling with the Seanchan has revealed the tea that makes women who can channel sleepy. This will play in to to Seekers hands as a way to root out channelers who where overlooked and made Suldam. Of course this will damn the entire Suldam theory and possibly prove that Tuon can channel. Which will stop the seanchan from kidnapping channelers but not from using the ones they've already captured. This is because Tuon already knows she can channel but places a huge importance on the difference between those who channel and do and those can channel but do not. Of course the theory is dumb anyway because if you are controlling someone who can channel, then you might as well be channeling yourself. Maybe Rand or Matt will point that out to her. I still can't decide if Tuon is very shrewd or very stupid. Anyway I think Egwene ends up bonding Tuon.

Perrin, Galad, and Seanchan are attacked in hordes by Trollocs and Co. It appears Cyndine and Mogheiden have teleported them there to kill Perrin. Carridan's Whitecloaks fight alongside Galad's in an attenpt to get closer to Perrin and possibly assasinate him. Whitecloaks, Seanchan and Perrin are all forced to ally with one another or be slaughtered. A message gets out to all remaining Wise Ones that Perrin needs help. Also, one of the Ashaman travells to get help from Rand he goes with Faile and her attendants except for Tallanvor and Morgaise to Camelyn. Aviendha receves this message and travells to Camalyn wherein she finds a huge army ran by Matt and Borderlander rulers. Elayne and Rand are told about the struggle, Basil and Linny tell Elayne about her mother in danger. Elayne sends out her troops to assist, Rand sends his out and convinces the Borderlanders to go there as well. (Since their purpose is to fight the shadow). They arrive via teleport and save the day. Elayne gets elected Queen since she solved the foreign army crisis. Even a few Aes Sedai showed up to lend a hand in the fight. Among them is Rina, who recognizes Elias Machera as her warder. The seanchan recognize Matt as thier prince and he gains command over them. Avienda is there to marry Gaul to Chiad. Bain can't complain since she is Gaishan.

Davram Bashere will betray Rand or is being manipulated by the dark one as per Min's viewing.

Lan is at Tarwins Gap but it is dead quiet. Lan's link is transferred back to Moiraine and in trying to fight the urge to return to her he marches towards Shaul Ghul with his huge army of borderlanders. That's when they catch sight of an enormous army of shadowspawn quietly building up in his old town of Malkeri. Lan decides to fight them. In the midst of battle his link is transferred to Nynaeve who feels that Lan is in danger and rounds up everyone and thier armies to head to Malkier for one final battle. The end of the books takes place in Malkier, the Seven Towers with Isam leading the shadowspawn.

During the time that Rand is dead and/or no longer needed, Logain takes his place and leads the forces of light to victory.
val del valle
220. valav
Alice Arneson
221. Wetlandernw
Valav @219 - Some interesting ideas there. I could like the idea of LTT taking Moridin's body while Rand keeps his own (miraculously repaired, of course). I sincerely doubt the "no channeling" effect, though; partly because I just don't like it, partly because I see no reason for it, and partly because there's no foreshadowing of it. And I don't buy "Rand is actually a construction of the shadow" - doesn't make any sense to me. But that's just me.

A few more problems:

I don't see Olver sneaking into the TofG, unless possibly he goes in later on his own. Remember, Moiraine "saw" - and told Thom - that Thom, Mat, and one other must try to rescue her. Either more or less will result in death for everyone. Since Olver heard that, I doubt he'll deliberately risk Mat's and Thom's lives by trying to sneak in. Here's an alternative: Since in the game there are two "player" discs, one of the three (probably Jain) will stay in the center to distract the 'Finn while Mat and Thom work their way to the outer edge of the web (to retrieve Moiraine) and back to the center.

And I do NOT think blood can count as "iron," or humans could never enter.

"Anyway I think Egwene ends up bonding Tuon." - Did you mean bonding, as in Warder bond? or leashing, as in putting an a'dam on her? I personally doubt either, but that's me.

Uh... teleported?? If you're thinking of Travelling, trollocs can't use gateways. Uh... Carridin? He's dead. And Elayne has already been "elected" Queen, in Knife of Dreams. And how on earth would the Seanchan recognize Mat (with one t) as their prince? The only ones who even know what he looks like, much less that he's the Prince of the Ravens, are Furyk Karede and some of his Deathwatch Guard - the ones who stay with Tuon all the time.

And IMO, Lan's bond to Moiraine is irreversibly broken. It passed to Myrelle, and there weren't any provisions for it to automatically pass back if she returned. If Moiraine ever has a Warder again, it will be Thom.
Henry Loose
222. schrodinger
blarg.




Lews Therin is not a separate entity from Rand. He is Rand in a previous life. Not two souls, but one. Lew Therin's memories and personality were a coping mechanism that Rand used when he was imprisoned in THE box. He was in solitary confinement for roughly a week, and in that time tortured and beaten. Given his already fragile mental state (pressures of the job, guilt over so many people dead at his hand, and the taint of saidin) it is no wonder that he created someone to talk to. I have no doubt that if put in a similar situation, Mat would have begun 'talking to' his former self (the Manetherenian general). Rand mistook his past memories (especially the traumatic event of his wife's death) for a distinct personality because he could not accept another woman's death on his hands, especially one that he had loved so much. By the end of TGS, Rand has accepted the fact that He IS Lew Therin, that he did indeed kill his wife, but he understands that, like himself, she can be born again, and that he might love her again. Thus, his need for the construct that is Lews Therin, for someone to take the blame for Ileyna's death, is gone. Part of Rand's fragile mental state is gone.

Cadsuane was right, Rand did need to learn to laugh and cry again, but she was wrong in her method. What Rand truly needed was a good psychiatrist.

Remember, 'Lews Therin' was beginning to chant Rand's list with him, he was beginning to take on more responsibility, not only taking the blame for Ileyna's death, but starting to take some of the blame for the others. Rand was trying to push all emotion into the 'Lews Therin' construct (I seem to recall that laughter and tears became very nearly all 'Lews Therin' could do near the end).

However, I stop slightly short of calling this Multiple Personality Disorder, because LT never exerted physical control over Rand's body, and Rand never experienced a blackout or switch-out. It could be that as with pregnancy, the One Power does something to the body which causes traditional symptoms to go away or lessen, as LT was only able to seize Saidin from Rand, rather than full control of his body (e.g. when fighting the trollocs in KoD, LT says 'My hands! My hands!' Rand then raises his hands and then LT wove Arrows of Fire). MPD is the most likely explanation for what LT was. The good news is that at the end of TGS we see the successful merger of the two personalities into one healthy individual (for a fun filled version of this, watch Jim Carrey in Me, Myself, and Irene).
Roger Powell
223. forkroot
valav@219
Perrin's co-mingling with the Seanchan has revealed the tea that makes women who can channel sleepy.
The Seanchan already know about forkroot and have begun using it in a screening process for channelers. Recall that the large quantity that Perrin employs comes from Seanchan stock.

Wetlandernw already covered my other points about the count into the Tower and Shadowspawn being unable to use gateways. Keep the ideas coming though!

I hope you are wrong about Bashere. Min's viewings are sometimes difficult to interpret correctly (e.g. Sheriam!)
Henry Loose
224. schrodinger
crazy new theory time: After Rand's death and Rebirth via Nynaeve, he will not reappear anywhere near someone currently able to channel. He will reappear near Tuon. She will bond him to save his life (eventually giving him back to El Min and Avi), thus binding the nine moons to him. I don't know the plot developments necessary for this to happen, but it would be interesting.
T C
225. Freelancer
Valav@219

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.
"Or a woman." Birgitte said sharply.
"Or a woman." Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

~ Rand has not yet been in the box.
~ Rand has not yet experienced the trauma(s) which would psychiatrically account for him splitting his personality.
~ Rand is wearing flesh in Falme.
~ The Heroes recognize Lews Therin in him, though he looks nothing like Lews Therin.
Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought beside you times without number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself."

Rand al'Thor is not a "construction of the shadow that was used to capture Lewis (sic) Therin's soul." Those who know more about reality than anyone else, the Heroes of the Horn, know that he is the Dragon Reborn. Your idea there would have the entire premise of the story be a massive misunderstanding. The prophecy you quote has fairly well been settled out by this time.

"Dances the sword in dreams and mist" can be seen in his fight against Ba'alzamon in that unexplained not-quite-Tel'aran'rhiod place above Falme.

"Chains the shadowsworn to his will, from the city, lost and forsaken" is generally accepted to be his capture of Asmodean at Rhuidean.

"Leads the spears to war once more, breaks the spears and makes them see, truth long hidden in the ancient dream" is most definitely the Aiel being told that they descend from those who held to the Way of the Leaf. The Wise Ones and clan chiefs know this "long hidden truth", because they witness it in the "ancient dream" of the crystal spires ter'angreal when they go to Rhuidean. They don't speak of it because they know many of the Aiel will be unable to accept it. Rand speaks of it at Alcair Dal, shows their past publicly, to prove that he, not Couladin, is the Car'a'carn, but in doing so, many of the spears are broken.


schrodinger@222

Refer to the text from The Great Hunt which I quote above. Artur Hawkwing knows him if he does not know himself. The Heroes recognize that the soul of Lews Therin has been reborn, and is now named Rand al'Thor. But the line "could you but remember when you wore flesh" means something more. He is speaking to the disembodied personality of Lews Therin which is uniquely present with Rand, though yet unrecognized by him. The position that Lews Therin is a construct developed while in the box doesn't work well with this. It could, if it was believed that the trauma which instigated the "construct" was either Rand's fight with Aginor at the Eye (and subsequent transportation to Tarwin's Gap by means unknown to him, followed by him skimming back), or the mangled Portal Stone trip to get to Toman Head ("I have won again, Lews Therin").


schrodinger@224

I've actually considered the reverse of what you suggest there. For Tuon to bind Rand, she would have to admit she can channel, would have to have knowledge of the Warder bond, and have a desire to be linked to the Dragon Reborn. Each is remotely plausible, but hard to swallow all together. Rand, on the other hand, while he now knows his "why", is still in a position of accepting whatever must be in order to win. He could play Alanna's trick, and put a Warder-like bond on Tuon. When Moiraine quotes that prohecy, she is asking what it means that he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'. If Tuon bound Rand to save his life, that would not be capable of forcing her, or the Seanchan as a whole, to serve him. So it is logically more sound to be the other way around. Besides, Rand currently thinks that Lews Therin is gone from his head, maybe he will want to fill that vacancy.
Henry Loose
226. schrodinger
Freelancer@225
I don't think he (Artur Hawkwing) is talking to the disembodied personality of Lews Therin (technically, it would be embodied, as its supposedly inside of Rand). I doubt that Lews Therin knew enough to explain why it takes more than courage to bind someone to the horn while he was alive. So I think that Hawkwing is referring to when LT was in the world of dreams. "could you but remember when you wore flesh" seems to indicate real life, but then again, everything seems more real in the world of dreams (e.g. you die there, you die forever).

Those previous events at the end of books one and two could simply be his memories of the past life that is Lews Therin. Remember, Mat had clear and vivid memories of his own past life (specifically the last battle of Manetheren) and had other subconscious memories (bits of the old tongue, etc.) so it stands to reason that Rand would remember bits of how to use the power, especially after drawing on the Eye of the World.

Of course, the Lews Therin construct existed before the box incident, but until then it was a mere sentence or two. Not full on conversations. The box was a catalyst. After that, the construct became very developed (either because Rand's subconscious had time to work on it or because of the traumatic events happening around him... Min was captured with him, so it stands to reason that some of his worry that she might be hurt in a similar fashion to Ileyna could have driven more of these memories to the surface, providing more material for the construct). Another possibility is that the construct simply grows as Rand's guilt does, (or as he pushes emotions into it and out of himself) as more maidens die and as more people around him die, the LT construct has to become larger to handle the guilt/emotions that Rand pushes on it.

I maintain that Lews Therin is simply a construct used by Rand to assuage his guilt and to push his emotions into, fabricated using the memories of his own past life.

As to the other, I have considered both options and it seemed that Rand bonding Tuon indeed seemed the most likely. I actually don't think that Tuon will channel in the series, but rather will have some sort of epiphany once she meets a healed Setalle Anan.
Tricia Irish
227. Tektonica
Schrodinger@222&226:

Well stated and I agree, FWIW.

I really like the idea that Rand pushed his emotions onto the LTT construct. The guilt and fear and love grew but Rand was trying to steel himself for the task ahead, so he pushed those emotions onto LTT, who was getting crazier emotionally....it fits.

Let's hope we have an integrated Rand from now on. One soul, Dragon, now embodied in the personality, Rand, with memories from his past life as LTT.
Roger Powell
228. forkroot
Tek@227
Consider the ramifications of a fully integrated Rand/LTT:

"Let's see now, I have several hundred years of memories of being called (and thinking of myself as) Lews Therin. And less than 20 years of being called Rand Al'Thor."

"OK. First thing I do when I get back is to tell everybody to stop calling me 'Rand'."
Tricia Irish
229. Tektonica
Forkroot@228:

No way! Rand is Rand. His immediate life and loves would certainly take precedence, as they are NOW and REAL....His love of his father and the Two Rivers and his responsibility to the world in the here and now will certainly take precedence.....IMHO. He can use LTT's knowledge and history to expand his ideas for TG and the LB and for reforming a functioning AS society, post TG.
Henry Loose
230. schrodinger
BwS is 99% done with the final draft of ToM according to facebook. He should be finished within the hour.
T C
231. Freelancer
Flash!!!

Brandon Sanderson: Ladies and gentlemen...last draft is done. Towers of Midnight is set for an on-time release, November 2nd.


Edit to add: Brandon worked around 15 hrs a day for a week on this final revision, covering an average of 14% each day of an 800+ page novel in a thorough reread.
Roger Powell
232. forkroot
Stinkers! Why, oh why, can't they release the book on Friday so I can bury myself in it over the weekend?
Alice Arneson
233. Wetlandernw
Yeah, what's with these Tuesday releases? I won't have a chance to read extensively until Friday night, by which time the spoiler thread will already be 700 comments long.

Incidentally, has anyone seen anything about a TofM tour schedule?

Oh, and do you suppose we should request a Way of Kings Open Spoiler thread?
T C
234. Freelancer
I'm planning to be at the store when the doors open to pick up my copy, and then stand in line at my polling place reading as much as I can.

That's right, Tor decided to have a major title released on Election Day! What were they thinking? Don't they realize everyone is going to be out doing their civic duty?
Alice Arneson
235. Wetlandernw
Hey, that's a great idea! Unfortunately for me, WA does all balloting by mail now. No more lines.
Sam Mickel
236. Samadai
We're by mail in Oregon as well. I will have already cast my votes.
I will be inline wherever I can Monday night/Tuesday morning to pick up my copy. I was planning on taking that day off from work, so I can get some serious reading done.
Barry T
237. blindillusion
I believe I'll do what I did with ToM. Head out to a local Wal-Mart after Midnight...

Except this time I think I'll take the day of the release off....
T C
238. Freelancer
Wetlandernw,

As for a WoK open thread, I'd suggest they wait at least two weeks after the release date before opening that can. Especially with it being the first volume of a new series, my guess is that much of it will be devoted to world info and staging plot background, setting up for the long haul. Also, it will be difficult to tell what plot points in the first volume will be foreshadows and what not.
Alice Arneson
239. Wetlandernw
Freelancer - Yes, I'm wondering what the online discussion will actually look like. With WoT, we're already invested rather deeply in the world and the characters, so there's a lot to talk about. Not only can we talk about what happened and how we interpret it (along with nitpicking at the things we thought weren't done right), we can speculate on what events are foreshadowings, or fulfillments of foreshadowings, and all that. With the first book of a new series, we don't know how extensively foreshadowing will play into the development, and we don't have a background of familiarity. I'm looking forward to seeing - but I have to admit I'd like to see it here, with people I already know, than go start in on a new venue where the level of courtesy and respect hasn't been developed as it (mostly) has here. :) Just me being wimpy.

However, I'd agree that it would be a good idea to wait a week or two. If nothing else, it reduces the proportion of flakey fans who just jump in to spout their two bits and then disappear. ::smirk::
T C
240. Freelancer
Wetlandernw

Exactly on all counts. Plus, there is another dimension with WoT which won't exist for the Stormlight Archives, which fans the flames of theories and speculation. Jordan's use of RL history, mythology, religion and culture is unique in its depth and scope among all fantasy sagas. Herbert's historical connections to Earth for the Dune story is a distant second.

Perhaps when a substantial portion of his world is revealed to us, Brandon's work will engender equivalent speculative attention, but I strongly doubt it. However great the Stormlight Archives turns out, WoT stands apart.
Alice Arneson
241. Wetlandernw
Not sure how that happenned. It reposted my post when I hit refresh. An hour later. Errrrr...

Anyway, I think you're correct. It will be several years before Stormlight will generate a significant amount of actual substantive discussion. For now it will mostly be simple reaction. And it may never reach the level of the WoT.
Wayne Wilson
242. stylusmobilus
Wow, finally found time between two uni subjects and a big family to post. I've been around a few times, and checked the comments. Good to see people haven't lost their flare for good prose and some great wisecracks.

As kinda predicted, I reckon Galad will get together with Berelain pretty soon. Morgase will show displeasure at Galad being a Whitecloak, and point out to him that he is actually heir to the Cairhienin throne. Galad will claim this throne and integrate the Whitecloaks under the Cairhienin emblem, which funnily enough is almost the same.

Rand will git it orrrrn with Avi, after she returns from Rhuidean, and she will fall pregnant. Aviendha will not have much of an active role in TG due to power loss, but that's the next thread and book. I don't think Rand and Min will have a child.

I agree with the general sentiment of Mat, Aludra and Elayne getting together on the guns and bullets. Mat trades an eyeball for Moiraine to enable the Ael and Eelfinn to somehow aid the world in the Last Battle, thereby 'giving up yarda yarda....'

All damane become initiates of the Tower. In fact Egwene gets what she wants and all channelers (not just female) are linked to the Tower.

I agree with some that say Moiraine will lose her ability to channel. This is stripped from her when she passes through the twisted door, as it is from Lanfear, resulting in diminished power for 'Cyndane' (Lanfear and Mo are pugging on when the Aelfinn catch them, and Moiraine gives her a huge quilting, having been taught some fisticuffs by Lan). Damer Flinn restores Moiraine's ability.

The Borderlanders realise they are part of a cluster fuck of issues perpetrated by a Forsaken, namely Demandred. A power struggle occurs between Demandred and Moridin, where Demandred somehow frees Moghedien and Cyndane from the yoke of the cour'souvra, or takes them himself. Moridin is not killed, but alienated from the rest, causing a rift which actually aids the DO in his plans, by giving him a variety of options.

Leane gets together with Tam Al'Thor. Elyas is reunited with his AS.
James Hogan
243. Sonofthunder
Free@231, Hurrah! Our wait has almost come to an end!

And I also wish the book didn't come out on a Tuesday...although last year, it did force me to read much slower than my usual pace. And I had time at work each day that week to ruminate over my reading the night before. Do we know if the UK/international release date will be the same?
LewsTherin
244. kraefzke
I don't get it: everybody seems to be sure that Rand's body will be repaired in some way...my guess is, that he will fight TG as he is, die in the end defeating the DO and be resurrected (by what-/whomever) only afterwards (maybe last chapter(s) of AMOL, or even epilogue), so no death for Rand in TOM.
I agree, that he will get Avi pregnant after his resurrection (but, following my line of thought, that's after TG).
In the first few posts it's mentioned time and again, that Flinn is supposed to Heal Siuan and/or Leane back to full strength. Although the topic has been dropped in the discussion, I'd like to throw in my point: You can't Heal what's already been Healed. That much is stated at various points in the books. I do not think, that there is anything left to be Healed. The "wound" is closed, so no point there. Prove me wrong!
T C
245. Freelancer
kraefske@244

You are not wrong, but most of those who propose that Flinn will "re-Heal" Siuan and Leane agree that they must be re-stilled first, so that they can be fully re-unstilled. Not to be confused with being distilled, or re-distilled.
LewsTherin
246. Stromgard
Prediction 1: Rand will kneel before Tuon and before Egwene in this book, not in some kind of submission but simply because he realizes that 1) he NEEDS them and what they represent 2) either of them serving him will NEVER happen, and 3) he needs to show them proper respect, because Dragon Reborn or no, in a partnership with them, he has the least political and military power of the three.

Egwene may have a few less troops to call on than Rand, she only have 3 armies (Tower Guard, Rebel Army, and Whitecloaks) committed to her, but seriously, not ONE of Rand's armies is gonna go up against the White Tower, and if she would walk up to Mat, Perrin, and/or Elayne and tell them to follow her and bring their armies, they would hop to obey. And she has doubtlessly a lot more political weight than Rand has. (Especially with all of the Whitecloaks behind her, though she doesn't know about that yet.)

As for Tuon, her armies seem to outweigh Rand's by a far margin and the people in her lands are HAPPY under Seanchan rule. In Rand's lands (not counting Two Rivers, Ghealadan, or Andor, they are ruled by Perrin/Faile and Elayne, respectively) as many people like and follow Rand as are wary and scared of him.

So: equal partnership or everything is doomed.

Prediction 2: The Whitecloaks, thanks to Neald and Grady, will arrive at Tar Valon and they will bow their knews outside and request that they may be allowed to serve the Amyrlin Seat. It will be a total moment of awesome. (I am not sure if Galad knows anything at all about the division and what has happened at the Tower, if not then he is in for a huge surprise when he sees who the Amyrlin is.)

Prediction 3: Galad will have a talk with Gawyn and talk some sense into him. I always expected Galad to come out as the sensible one of the three siblings since every bad notion we have of him are Elayne's, and Thom's, prejudices. He haven't done a single thing in the books that justifies their view of him. Can you imagine how hard his childhood must have been? People all around hating and despising you because of a father you barely knew before he died, not to mention that your mother wasn't your mother, while your two siblings were the REAL children in the family? Then spending all your childhood and teenage years trying to do good and protect your siblings, one of which hates you for no reason, and which will eventually get the entire heritage, and likely kick you into exile when she takes the throne? Can you imagine the character it would take to be noble, bold, heroic, just and kind growing up knowing all that? Galad = awesome.

Prediction 4: Sammael is not dead. Yes, he died at SL, but seriously, why wouldn't the DO bring him back? He is, despite his flaws, the greatest military mind of the Third Age. With TG coming up, you don't keep one of the two top generals you haven't lost to balefire in the grave? The only reason I can think of that he is gonna remain dead is that he does not WANT to come back, i.e. he has accepted his defeat by LTT/Rand, but... it's doubtful that Rand can honestly claim that he has defeated Sammael, so the big fight to the death between them? Still has to happen imho.

Prediction 5: There will be some further elaboration about the LTT/Demandred connection. Dem was born the day after LTT, he and LTT excelled in the same areas (and those areas were numerous) and Dem, though awesome in everything he did, was marginally less awesome in everything. Also the 3 times Rand have time to actually plan and prepare dealing with the Forsaken, (Illidan invasion, finding Graendal, cleansing the source) he does it in a way that involves his followers doing most/all of the work, something that seems a lot like Dem's MO. I want more information on whether Demandred is some sort of Anti-LTT :-)

Prediction 6: Therava and the Wise Ones with her will be killed off, all of them. Since they are as evil as you get in WOT, and since they have abandoned every Aiel custom, they HAVE to die. If even one of the bastards survive, I will be disappointed. Hopefully by Galina, who manages to go out with a bang and nuke them all in a huge explosion of fire when they push her too hard.

Prediction 7: Now that Suroth is property (couldn't happen to a nicer person) Liandrin is free as the wind again and will be doing more fun mischief in this book

Prediction 8: If Cadsuane is still alive when Moiraine get back to Rand's side, they will dislike, distrust and antagonize each other. And Rand may get a reminder of Moiraine's advice "don't trust anyone that wears a shawl the day I die". Also we will see the advertised face-off between Moiraine and Nynaeve (unless Moiraine defer to Nyn's superior AS awesomeness and show throat).

Prediction 9: Elayne will, personally, save Mat more than once in this book. One of the times will be using an angreal that only she knows how it works to kill the gholam. Another will be killing a grey man that Mat didn't notice.

Prediction 10: Mat will become either Joline's or Teslyn's warder. Both of them will stay with The Band.

Prediction 11: Alanna will die while protecting Rand and saving his life from assassins. Myrelle will be brought back from the Black Tower by Nynaeve and will teach Aviendha how to lessen the hurt in him from losing Alanna. (And will turn over her bond with Lan to Nyn at the same time.)

Prediction 12: After the Black Tower is "re-taken", and Moiraine is at Rand's side again, Cadsuane, and several AS that she trusts, will help train Asha'man under Logain's leadership. (Sorta formally, anyway. I don't think Logain will ever be able to command Cadsuane.)

Prediction 13: Demandred will show up with his armies and it's bigger, badder and generally worse than any reader or character in the books could imagine. It will be a total "we are so screwed now"-moment.

Prediction 14: Darkfriends. Uprising. Riots. Betrayal. Assassinations. Genocide. Everywhere. Every single Darkfriend not part of Rand's, Egwene's, Elayne's or The Seanchan command structure will try to do as much damage/kill as much people as possible, and it will all happen during the same day or the same few days to maximize the psychologial effect.
Debbie Solomon
247. dsolo
Stromgard @246

Liandrin is still d'a'vacole (sp?), and her powers are bound. I don't know is Semi's death will unbind them or not, but she is stuck regardless. I wonder if she and Suffa will see each other?

Mat become a warder! No way. Joline has warders, and she's a pain in the patoot. Teslyn might possibly hang around as Mat has helped her, but she is a Red. However, since the precedent for Reds taking warders has been established, she might just do it.
Roger Powell
248. forkroot
Yeah, I've commented before on the growing respect that Teslyn has gained for Mat (not to mention gratitude!). I agree with the idea that Teslyn will remain with the Band to help Mat.

Joline is an ungrateful twit. I suppose there's always hope for some sort of epiphany, but if it hasn't happened by now ....
Birgit
249. birgit
Liandrin is still d'a'vacole (sp?), and her powers are bound. I don't know is Semi's death will unbind them or not, but she is stuck regardless.

Liandrin was shielded by Moggy, not Semi.
If anyone bonds Mat, it should be his wife.
A Jeeves
250. Artur al Yorks
Following from 183

How will Rand defeat the Dark One?
As I suggested, by somehow exhausting or removing the 'source'. One way might be by Elayne working out how to reproduce Mat's ter'angreal.
It would be cool if thegood guys wore copies. eh!
A walk over? Maybe not so easy.

Walk in the Light
LewsTherin
251. Talen Drake
I don't know if it will be in the ToM, but when Rand dies, possibily before the last battle, either the Horn of Valere and/or Elayne, will pull him out of Tel. How much would that mess with people if Rand died at the end of this book? We know he is already bound to the Horn via Artur Hawkwing greeting him when Mat blew it the first time. The Dark is screwed unless they do something about the horn.
LewsTherin
252. Floorgenschneckleblop
EARTH TO WHEEL OF TIME FANS:
Remember Elan Morin/Ishamael/Moridin's comment in Dragonmount, the prologue of The Eye of the World: This battle has lasted not ten years but since the beginning of time itself!
Rand Al'Thor has lived thousands of lives, not just that of Rand and LTT! In the final chapter of TGS, after Rand's epiphany, he gains the memories of thousands f people, yet you all only mention how LLT might affect him. Im 14 and i no this!
Rand will remain Rand, but the memories of the other Dragons will infuse him.
More predictions:

We all know who Rand means by she when he wonders if she has been reborn too, but is Ilyena Sunhair reborn into one of Rand's 3 loves, a bit to all, or none at all? I say probably each a bit, because little is known of Ilyena to us, so we canno compare personality....

I doubt Demandred has siezed power in Shara, but what of Kandor and Arafel? We know little of their rulers. Has LTT's self-styled archrival taken over one of the very countries that is in the borderland army looking for him? If he meets with them, will Demandred finally strike?

Now, the hot topic: The Tower of Genjai.
Moiraine claims she was not dead, therefore her rescue is not a ressurection, but a prisonbreak! Also, will they find Lanfear's corpse, as well as the angreal she carried against Rand?
Until the cover release, I had thought that the third person in Mat's rescue party might be Aludra, for does not the phrase go: Courage to strengthen, FIRE TO BLIND, music to dazzle, iron to bind? Aludra is a former frickin Illuminator! Fire is her domain! Music is Thom's, and Mat's asanderai is made of iron! Courage is a given, really. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn both asked if iron, fire or instruments were carried. If th answer were no, then they would mention a bargain being held. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn are of superior races, but are weak to fire, iron, and music, oddly enough. In the game of Snakes and Foxes, it is impossible to win WITHOUT BREAKING THE RULES. No iron, fire, or music, ARE THE RULES in this case. By all means, break away! I think the game was created as a warning, not an idle game for thick children!

Gawyn's rage toward Rand is mantained by his belief that his mother's demise may be lain at his feet. If he knew she were alive, well...you can do the math from there. Rand learned from Tam that Morgase yet lives, therefore, i see an apology to Rand in Gawyn's future when next he meets the Dragon.

However, back on the subject of Tam, his reunion with his adoptive son was less than satisfactory. With Rand's newly recovered sanity, Take 2 should be better.

What happened to Elayne? In The Gathering Storm, she got the short end of the stick, her appearances totaling...ZERO! For the newly crowned queen of the largest nation on the continent, one of the main characters, one of Rand's lovers, and ruler of Mat's primary destination for weapon mass production and the infamous Black Tower, i had expected much more! Not to mention how she had to begin rconstruction after a civil war, while dealing with pregnancy stress, anger, and lack of channeling, she had a loton her hands. I expected a few chapters at the very least.
In the future, after giving birth, I suspect she'll want another try at copying Mat's medalion ter'angreal.

Why the Hell are there two versions of the Karaethon Cycle? The Seanchan have a far different version than all others.
diane heath
253. jadelollipop
It has been mentioned in the past that Elayne may well be the one to fund Mat's Dragons. (When Mat discovers the estimates of the cost from Aludra in TGS
he thinks to himself that he "will have to dice with the Queen of Andor"....it occurred to me that if it comes to dicing with Elayne and getting her funding for the Dragons it could be one way for Elayne to gain access to his fox medallion. (I still hold out against him losing it prior to the rescue of Moraine but maybe if Elayne has it then the Finns won't be able to take it back.
Henry Loose
254. schrodinger
EARTH TO Floorgenschneckleblop:
we know this.

We also know that Birgitte also initially had thousands of memories from past lives, and they eventually disappeared (except for the most recent, with those being the strongest). She and Rand are both heroes of the horn, so it stands to reason that he will have those memories for a time, then only the more recent ones will remain, meaning that the LTT memories will be the strongest (also, they aren't other Dragons, they are all Rand, see my above posts for explanation). Also, When one of the Forsaken is reborn by the DO, their memories acclimate to the body they're put in; they remember events in their past life as having the body they currently inhabit, so the memories probably won't effect Rand at all, mostly because they are HIS memories, and partly because they will soon disappear.

As to the differences between the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle (the Seanchan one), they were caused by Ishydin while acting as Artur Hawkwing's adviser during his reign, according to the BBoBA as well as a short story that RJ wrote called 'The Strike at Shayol Ghul'

Finally, just some friendly advice: try not to be so confrontational/insulting in your posts, Tory likes us to play nice. Other than that, I like the ideas.
LewsTherin
255. ScoundrelTheToy
Hrm, my predictions for TOM are:

1: Mesaana will be revealed and in the process unwittingly reveal the true function of the 'Oath Rod' resulting in apoplexy amoung all Aes Sedai when they realize they bind themselves like criminals and in their ignorance have taken this up as a badge of honor (obligatory lol @ Aes Sedai).

2: Sincerly hope we get at least one Avienda POV of going back to Rhuidean.

3: Moiraine POV in prologue of her captivity in Finnland.

4: I think Elayne and Mat will reach a bargain with Elayne helping to fund Mat's cannon's in exchange for the Band's protection and Mat's medallion for study while he's in the TOG.

5: The Band will save Andor from attack from the Seanchan and/or Shadowspawn, possibly at the same time.
Henry Loose
256. schrodinger
Another prediction: Demandred will lead the army against Andor, and when he first sees the cannons he will go "What? What? WHAT?" Then a cannonball goes through his face (he will eventually be resurrected for TG).
Mari Davis
257. sheiglagh
I just noticed that most people here do not like Gawyn. :-( I do like him. His character is flawed, but it is also the thing that makes him endearing and frustrating at the same time, which BTW was exactly Min's viewing of him of how Egwene will see him. That viewing came true in TGS.

Gawyn is the middle child!!! All the attention was on Elayne because she is the Daughter Heir. Gawyn was too young for his father to pay him any attention. Galad only received their father's attention when he was old enough to practice sword. Then, their father died.

So, it is not really surprising that Gawyn is ambivalent. So, what do we do with Gawyn, other than killing him off as most of you suggest?

In the next two books, I believe Gawyn's character will be a little bit more central than just being the brother of Elayne and Egwene's love interest.

Gawyn will have to face Rand to clear up the air between them, though at this point in time, the anger is just on Gawyn's side. In fact, Rand does not really want to hurt him as what happened at Dumai Wells.

Will Egwene make Gawyn her warder and also marry him? I hope so.

I guess many here will disagree with me, but this is just my two cents worth.

P.S.

Just an addition for Galad. He will be the one to kill Slayer because Slayer will hesitate killing Galad. Slayer will see his sister Tigraine's (sp?)face, who is Galad's mother.
diane heath
258. jadelollipop
Just an addition for Galad. He will be the one to kill Slayer because Slayer will hesitate killing Galad. Slayer will see his sister Tigraine's (sp?)face, who is Galad's mother.


I like this idea. Poetic justice since it was the resemblance to Tigraine that got Jandhuin (sp) killed
LewsTherin
259. kipper09
I've enjoyed the thread. Adding in a few predictions:
Minor scene, but I expect a brief Mat/Birgitte reunion. "The flaming LADY Birgitte...what has Elayne done to you?" "Look who's talking, (insert some Old Tongue, long-forgotten nation's equivalent of 'Your Highness')".

I expect Rand to finally meet up with Egwene, possibly have some sort of audience before her and the Hall. I know several Aes Sedai are aware of Alanna's bond on Rand, but I cannot remember Egwene or any Aes Sedai currently at the Tower acknowledging that they were aware of it. If that is true, I would love to see this happen. When Egwene starts chewing Rand out about Ashaman bonding Aes Sedai without consent, he responds that he allowed Aes Sedai to bond Ashaman to make up for it, but she counters that they crossed the line first and are responsible. Then Rand should say something like, "You're right, the ones who bonded without consent first should be held responsible, can we agree on that?" When Egwene, who has now sworn on the Oath Rod, agrees, he should casually point directly to wherever Alanna is in the world and proceed to explain just how he knows where she is.

I began to like Egwene more after TGS, but I would love to see Rand 'face her wrath' and then with calmness and logic turn it around on her. Aes Sedai have been hypocritically condemning other's actions, especially Rand's, for so long that someone needs to put them in their place. Rand has suffered far more injustice at Aes Sedai's hands than any Aes Sedai has suffered at his.

I can't see true peace between Randland and the Seanchan while the a'dam is still being used, and I can't see Tuon changing her mind on the subject or having someone else convince her with just a logical argument. A dramatic event will have to happen to her to shake her view of the topic. I do not think that she will just start channeling, herself, but others will learn the truth about Sul'dam and there will be a plot against her. I suspect Galgan. In Tuon's POV, after her audience with Beslan, she considers Galgan and thinks that he may still consider taking the throne, but at the time, was not concerned becuase he was a prudent man:
"He would not strike unless he conceived it was for the best. He would have to believe that he had a strong potential for success and that removing Tuon would be better for the Empire."
I suspect that Galgan will learn that Tuon can channel, and it will inspire him to try and unite the blood against her and depose her. My guess is he arranges for her to have some forkroot-laced tea at a public occasion (much easier than getting close to her with collar).
Mari Davis
260. sheiglagh
1. I have to add this for Aviendha and her quadruplets that Min viewed as "odd" or "different" (forgot the exact word)

Has anyone wondered why Min has never gotten pregnant when she is the one who is always with Rand? I've always wondered about that.

Also, Lewis Therin has several children with Ilyena, not just one, i.e. based on the Prologue of TEOTW.

Following that train, then it is logical to assume that Rand will have more than 2 children. And with Min's viewing that Avi will have quadruplets, then we can easily say there will be 6 younglings.

My prediction, (this might happen in either of the two books) is that Avi will get pregnant with twins, and Min will get pregnant with twins too. But, for some reason, Min will not be able to carry her babies to terms, so with the use of the OP, either with the WO, Ashman or AS, the babies will be carried by Aviendha, hence she will have quadruplets and its odd because the quadruplets are actually TWO TWINS.

Why I say that is because the idea of of having an embryo transferred from one womb or another to save the baby and the mother had been done before in Star Trek, specifically Deep Space 9. But there, they used transporter technology.

Anyway, Avi and Min sharing a baby is a good way that they can become sister wives and truly share. Both of them are already not aversed on sharing with Elayne while Elayne is actually willing to share with both of them. It's just a matter of making Aviendha and Min feel like sister wives.

I also believe that 'making one three' when the Dragon Reborn holds the sword also refers to Elayne, Aviendha and Min.

2. As for the TofG, I believe there will be no cheating. Because if Mat cheats, then we will feel cheated too. RJ and BS are just too good as writers to cheat their readers. I believe that how Mat & company win Snakes and Foxes will surprise us.

But, I don't believe there will be cheating. I believe that coming out as winners will be more on Mat's luck, Thom's skills as a gleeman. We don't know who the other person is yet though Noal is a favorite choice.
diane heath
261. jadelollipop
I finally finished my re-read of TGS and Thom did tell Mat that Olver still thinks he is going with them to the ToG and will wait outside. So it is possible that he becomes the 3rd "man" --Thom expected to find Olver in his saddlebags at one point :)
Daniel Hanley
262. dmhman749
@ sheiglagh: It has been said multiple times that you can't win snakes and foxes without cheating. its not a matter of even mat's insane luck at its best being enough. Mat's luck might give them more time to set up however they cheat, but it must be done to win.

Anyway, my only prediction is this: Someone said a while back that Rand will die on Sunday (we are less than a month away as of the end of TGS). I think that he will die three days earlier, and be brought back to life at noon on Sunday...I doubt RJ could resist such an easy link to Christ, both in the name itself, and the aligorical rising from the dead on the longest day, etc. Also, the last time that Perrin saved Rand, he found out about it at midnight on the Feast of Lights (longest night) and set out to save him from the Aes Sedai. I think he will set out into the wolf dream to save him on Sunday after he dies (maybe from slayer?) so that Nynaeve can pull him out of T'A'R'. Or whatever she is going to do. Either the death or the res. will end the book. So we have about 24-27 days to play with in the next book(though a lot of it will be going back to find out what Mat and Perrin have been up to during the events of TGS). The timing comes out too well for me to see RJ not having set it up that way.
Mari Davis
263. sheiglagh
@dmhman749 - yes you are right. It had been said several times that the only way to win Snakes and Foxes is to cheat.

But I'm an optimist and it will just be so easy just to cheat. :-) Also, Olver in KoD and/or CoT continues to believe that the game can be won without cheating. The boy just won't give up on it. :-)

Also, I do not believe that we have been given how the game is played. From my experience (other books or movies or video games) a sidequest like the ToG that involves a game, the game is actually explained and played. Case in point - Harry Potter's quiddick game. It might surprise us what the game is. I believe that ToM will give us the explanation of the game.

And, if they do, I won't be surprise if Ubisoft or Square Enix have already opted for Snakes and Foxes. :-)
Daniel Hanley
264. dmhman749
Well, I imagine that we will find out more of the game, though we have gotten some basic information on it over time. Regardless, as long as they cheat in a clever way, I won't feel cheated. I assume it won't be as simple as "Haha! I said i didn't bring fire, but this is a firestick! now hand Moiraine over, for we have bested your rules" That would be admittedly stupid, but i think that RJ probably came up with way of making it a little more interesting than that.
Alice Arneson
265. Wetlandernw
sheiglagh @260 - Has anyone wondered why Min has never gotten pregnant when she is the one who is always with Rand? I've always wondered about that.

I always assumed it was because she drank the heartleaf tea. At this point she'd rather be unpregnant and stay with Rand than be pregnant and risk having to stay in Caemlyn (or wherever) with morning sickness.
T C
266. Freelancer
Prediction 1: Stromgard@246 will go 1-for-14.


Fl+19@252

This has been dealt with before, but one soul is always and only one soul. The soul of Ilyena cannot be reborn into three contemporary souls.

Mat's ashandarei is made of steel, not iron. In his first trip to the Tower of Ghenjei via the doorway in Tear, when the "escort" says that it is good he kept to the covenant, and didn't bring a musical instrument, or fire, or iron, Mat is holding one of his knives. Clearly then, a steel blade is not counted by the 'Finn as iron. Also, I've never seen a commentor refer to the rescue trip to the Tower as a resurrection, so no idea why you'd bring that up.

For the rest, I would urge you to find and enjoy the WoT FAQ, which asks and answers a great many of the thoughts you raised.


sheiglagh@260

Heartleaf tea. Min knows it, Min uses it. Min doesn't get with child because of it. Elayne didn't use it. Aviendha intends not to use it.

Also, it's certain that Noal is the third man on the cover of ToM, since it came up during the discussion about the need to make numerous "corrections" to the first draft of the cover.

I don't get why you think it would be "easy" to cheat the 'Finn. They aren't stupid. Please explain the simplicity with which our heroes will cheat them?


Edit to add: ::stares @ Wetlandernw:: Always while I'm busy finalizing my comments...::grin::
john massey
267. subwoofer
S'ok old feller, we know you are not fast on the draw anymore;)

Wait, didn't Insectoid say there was a buffet in the bunker- takes off

Woof™.
Mari Davis
268. sheiglagh
@Freelancer - Thanks for reminding me about the heartleaf tea. It was naive of me to think that Randland does not have something for birth control. Duh... My bad.

As for cheating - it will be an 'easy' decision to cheat. Mat & company can decide to do some Macgyver stuff though it will be hard to make iron since its an element and unless they have a futuristic chem lab which can manipulate atoms, there really is no way to bring in iron unless it is already in there.

You're right, it will be hard to cheat the Finn, but if Mat & company assume that they will cheat when they go in, then it defeats the purpose of the whole sidequest. It will be as easy as Alexander cutting the Gordian knot. All the suspense of waiting and planning cut short short by a bold stroke. If that is the case, then I will feel cheated.

I believe in 'earning' everything. So far, in the whole WoT series, our heroes earn their victories and their rewards. To quote a character in another series "nothing is ever easy."

Also, Mat does not cheat, even when he is gambling. His luck makes sure of that. His head is also full of strategies in winning wars and battles. And for lack of a better term, Mat sees patterns (not the Age Lace or pattern as we speak of in WoT) but pattern as we mean for it today in mathematics, statistics, etc.

Between him and Thom, who also sees patterns or the logical conclusion of different actions taken (as in The Game of Houses), our heroes have a good chance of winning without cheating.

As for Noal as the third person, I believe he will be the one also. But, I also see others playing a part like Olver and other members of the band. What they will play, I don't know.

Mat is a great tactician not just in battles but also in 'hiding in plan sight'. It was already shown different times - when they joined Luca, everyone has a background story including Tuon and Selucia and when they were trying to go to the village where Verin was hiding out in TGS.

Tactis will make our heroes win, not cheating as in bringing fire via matchstick, music via singing or any other means or smuggling iron to the ToG.

Oh chances are Mat will have a matchstick, he loves carrying those. But doing a Macgyver stunt to bring in music and iron just seem cheesy IMHO.

I am very passionate about this because Mat is my favorite among all the characters. :-) So, I'm really hoping that he wins the ToG sidequest because of his talent and not because he cut the Gordian knot or cheated.
Wayne Wilson
269. stylusmobilus
sheiglaigh@268

I'm thinking that if a good plan would be to blind and dazzle them, bind them up and get out of there with Moiraine, why not do it? I get the feeling Mat's going to need every bit of luck he can scrape up to pull it off no matter what plan he adopts.

I just don't see it as a cheat. He has to go into their domain to rescue someone they are likely to be guarding well. He doesn't have fantastic experiences with them. I kind of understand where you're coming from in respect to 'earning everything' but I'm afraid if it was me, in this situation I would be using every advantage I could find.
Henry Loose
270. schrodinger
Free@ 266

You're absolutely right about it not being easy to cheat the 'Finn. The restrictions are probably not in place because they are mortal weaknesses of the 'Finn, but probably due to the combination of all three in the exact right circumstances. Imagine Mat showing up with matches yelling 'Ha! I have FIRE!!!' A 'Finn slowly reaches over after licking his fingers and puts it out. Thom pulls out his harp 'Ha! I have... Music!' A 'Finn pulls out some earplugs and starts humming under its breath. Mat, Thom and Noal gather into a huddle 'Lets see, what do we have left? looks in a bag courage? iron? they all look up at the 'Finn, then back in the bag and back to the 'Finn Mat: 'oh the hell with it' stabs 'Finn with Ashandarei, Thom and Noal both produce daggers and go to town. Later, Mat leans against the outside of the tower with Thom, Noal and Moiraine 'Well that was easier than I expected.'
Alice Arneson
271. Wetlandernw
A few follow-up thoughts on cheating the Finn:

The "cheating" that will take place is not nearly so simple and straightforward as cutting a knot. Nor will it be so simple as (like schrodinger says) whipping out their cheats with a cheesy "aha! we win!" I think it will prove true that they'll have to cheat to win free with Moiraine, but it will require all their skill, cleverness, wit, strategy and luck to determine who, what, how, when and where. Who or what must be blinded with fire, and when? and where? Who will be dazzled (or dazed) by the music? When? How? Why? How does iron bind them? Who will have to be bound? None of those will be things they can prepare for ahead of time, if only because they have so little idea what to expect. Whether or not they think about Aludra's firesticks, Thom's singing and iron-in-whatever-form in terms of "cheating on The Agreement" they will for some plausible reason have the necessary bits along, but any plans they make ahead of time will turn out to be meaningless. It will come down to figuring out how, when and where to use them, probably under extreme pressure.

Remember, it's "cheating" against an agreement they don't even understand, under conditions they won't know beforehand, to rescue someone they desperately need whether they acknowledge it or not. It won't be what we usually think of as cheating, where you sneak the answers to the test, or jimmy the books to make off with lots-o-cash - i.e., an easy way around instead of earning the reward the fair way. It will be pitting all their skills and wits against adversaries who are so different as to be incomprehensible, and they will have to break the normal understanding of the agreement in order to get out with their lives. And it will cost them mightily in the process. They can't win against the 'Finn, playing by the rules, so they'll have to win by figuring out first what the rules are, and secondly how to break them effectively.

The clue of Aludra's firesticks and her connection to Mat are too clear to just fizzle out. Whether the music is really Thom's voice or something he can craft from within the TofG, we'll have to RAFO. What form the iron will take is likewise a RAFO. But IMO, they will need all three, plus all their courage and wit, to retrieve Moiraine and get out alive. And even though they will "cheat" according to "the agreement" and the 'Finn definition, it won't be easy and it won't be disappointing to the reader. And they will earn their victory.
T C
272. Freelancer
What she said. Can I just offer a soothing thought? Would Jordan leave you feeling cheated about a plot which has been hanging for so very long?
Donna Harvey
273. snaggletoothedwoman
A question: I wonder if "the agreement" definition can be found in the 'greal library Elayne has from the Kin stash? What other information is in the 'greal library?
Mari Davis
274. sheiglagh
@Wetlandernw, @Freelancer, @schrodinger, @stylusmobilus in this thread - thank you very much for your insights. It has been a very engaging conversation. :-) You guys made me miss my book club which I had to leave because we had to move.

You guys also made me so psyched for ToM, which I thought I could not be more excited already.

I'll continue to look into this forum, but just in case you are somewhere in cyberspace, the avatar I'm using here is the same avatar I use all over the web. So, if you see that one, (it's unique, it was drawn for me by a dear friend), say hello. :-) It is me.
LewsTherin
275. up2stuff
Okay. Here is a LOONEY THEORY. There is some kind of agreement/bargain with the 'Finn. Right? Could bringing the Fire, Music, and Iron be some kind of payment to them for Aid against the DO or ransom for Moiraine?

Just wondering because if the Finns are sitting around for however many millenia knowing that these people are gonna show up with these things one day, and this means we gotta help them, as per the agreement, they would know they can mess around with anyone else until that time. You know, "There's one of those humans, make sure he cant pay, then skin him".

Remember how Rand dealt with Greandal? Don't play the game when the opponent is smarter. Maybe not playig by the rules does not mean cheating, just not playing the game. Matt says, "Ill trade you this shiny iron, matches, and my friend will sing you a song, plus my eye (half the light of the world), if you let us go." to seal/complete the bargain.

Or...

The fireworks mentioned above just sprang to mind too. The fire works are obviously blinding, music to dazzle (they whistle/shriek and thus dazzle), and if there is iron in them for some reason, they would BIND the Finn people spellbound. (OOOOH, AHHH)

Two final thoughts... One is whatever happens, we finally probably see BOTH Ael Finns and Eel Finns in the same place at the same time so it will be a whole lot of UH-OH!.

Second.. something we will probably never see is what happens inside the DREAM WORLD Tower of Genghi. Didnt Hopper tell Perrin something about how it is like INFINITELY more treacherous in the world of dreams?
LewsTherin
276. AndrewB
I believe that ToM will contain a scene where SH or Mordin will severely punish (or possibly kill her) due to Egwene's reveal of the Black Ajah. The killing of approximately 70 members of the Black Ajah and the outing of everybody else is a failure the likes of which have not been seen on screen in this series so far.

Such actions cannot go unpunished. As the leader of the Black Ajah, Alviarin will have to bear the consequences.

I also hope (but will not predict) that ToM will contain a report to Fortuona on the White Tower attack. I am curious as to see whether the Seanchan consider the attack a success. The only captured approximately 40 channelers (2 dozen of which were full Aes Sedai). However, they lost over 30 raken. In addition, they lost a significant number of sul'dam and damane.

In my opinion, the attack was a failure. Anybody have thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Jason Deshaies
277. darxbane
I think Olver is an Eelfinn. I don't know what significance it will have, but he needs to do something important. Maybe part of Moiraine's "bargain" was to give Matt aid in coming to her rescue, or they need to be within a certain distance to steal memories. I can't even guess. I do know that his appearance is given far too much attention to be insignificant.
Roger Powell
278. forkroot
AndrewB
I agree, from the Seanchan point of view, the attack was a failure, at least in terms of "net channelers gained" since they probably lost as many damane as they gained marath'damane.
OTOH, they may get the traveling weave from Suffa, so perhaps it will have been worth it.

From the point of view of Team Light, the attack was a huge success because of the results. It afforded an opportunity for Egwene to cement her status as "formidable" (ya think?) and conveniently removed her rival. Thus it paved the way for a bloodless reunification of the White Tower; something that had appeared impossible just days before. Surely more lives were spared because of the war averted, than were lost to the Seanchan raid.
T C
279. Freelancer
snaggletoothedwoman@273

I've been wondering for quite some time why neither Aviendha nor Elayne has attempted to make use of the Jolly Man library ter'angreal. Does it just make too much sense?


AndrewB@276

There are varying degrees of what constitutes a success regarding a military engagement. If intelligence, tactical positioning, or strategic status is adequately improved, it is of much greater significance than relative loss of forces. The Seanchan took greater losses, but have a vastly larger force than the White Tower (before the Salidar crowd returns, and a numerical advantage even then).

Gaining Traveling would be worth all of their losses on its own merit. Imagine, they can now gate back and forth directly from their homeland, allowing them to easily refit, reinforce, and increase support for those on Randland soil.

Can the White Tower consider it a success that they ran off the raiding forces? They had substantial losses due to death or capture, and the Tower itself is visibly damaged, something which has never happened before. Of course, we know that it is thanks to this event that Egwene is now the undisputed Amyrlin Seat, Elaida is removed, most of the Black Ajah has been purged, and the Tower, however damaged, is functionally whole again. The cloud has a silver lining, however black it was.

All that to say that it is too early to know who ended up benefitting most from the results of that battle.

Edit to add: Et tu, forkroot? Who's next to beat me to the punch?
Noneo Yourbusiness
280. Longtimefan
I predict that Mat will use the firesticks in a tricky but time honored way.

He will write his room number on the inside cover.

When the Finn drive out to meet him at the Holiday Inn on Route 85 they will be dazzled by the lounge musician playing a rousing version of "Benny and the Jets", blinded by the cozy fire in the fireplace and bound by the iron as the housekeeping staff ties them up with the power cords from all the complementary room irons.

What? Did someone say this was for serious theories only? Oh, they did. Well.... drat. I do not have a serious one. Fine, (kicks the ground) you guys have your serious party and stuff and I will go throw rocks in the creek out back. :(

:)

My serious prediction is that Demandred will be revealed and people everywhere will sigh with a relieved "fina-freakin-ly".

Sadly he will be Padin Fain and everyone will be really cheesed off.

:)
Tess Laird
281. thewindrose
AndrewB - Alviarin was the one who let Shaidar Haran know that the Black Ajah was being hunted. She seemed to have almost figured out what the Black Ajah hunters were up to, but then the Seanchen attack came and the Tower reunited. I think she was the one who saved as many of the Black Ajah as she could - they had warning from somewhere. I would say that Mesanna is the one who needs to pull a miracle to show she is still of use to the DO.

The Seanchen will think the attack is a success because they will learn of traveling from Suffa.

I think they will try another attack on the Tower, this time by Traveling. This is when Egwene will be saved by a Seanchen, I am going with Tylee - I don't see The Empress(Tuon) going to battle. Tylee has already begun questioning things as they are, and has a high regard for Perrin. Maybe she is taking Egwene prisoner, and Egwene shows her that Suldam can be collared just the same as Damane.

tempest™
Birgit
282. birgit
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

Q: Do the Seanchan consider the raid on the White Tower a success?
A: Yes, they consider it a success, but they’re disappointed that they didn’t get their hands on the Aes Sedai superweapon.
Eric Neal
283. ewneal
If Mat & co. are entering the TOG directly instead of using the archway ter'angreal who's to say they have to 'play by the rules' anyway?

I agree with all who have expressed their doubts that any 'cheating' that takes place will be hokey. I am of the mind that cleverness and tactics will be required to make it in and out of Finnland and that sacrifices by each of the three will be required to do so.

The foreshadowing about the fire, musical instruments (not singing), and iron have persisted in the storyline for so long that there can be little doubt that they will come into play in the TOG quest.
Henry Loose
284. schrodinger
Rand will die before Moiraine gets back from ToG. He will fail unless she and Nynaeve work together to pull him out of TAR. She might know what to do through her imprisonment or her journey through the columns at Rhuidean.
Mari Davis
285. sheiglagh
Prediction for ToM: We will see more of Bodewhin Cauthon, Mat's sister. She is too strong as a channeler to be forgotten. In fact, other than Leane and Egwene, she is the only one among the AS rebel group who can make cuendillar

Re: Gawyn, I believe Egwene will finally bond him as a Warder. After all, Egwene dreamt that she will bond him. But, there is also a chance that he will die if Gawyn chooses the wrong fork on the road, as Egwene had dreamt.

Just my two cents worth.
Alice Arneson
286. Wetlandernw
schrodinger @284 - It's a cool theory, except that Moiraine explicitly said in her letter to Rand "You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you." So it couldn't be anything she learned in the Rhuidean rings. (She didn't go through the columns.) Still, there's her time with the 'Finn as well as her Acceptatron and other general studies.
T C
287. Freelancer
sheiglagh@285

Bode is indeed strong, but the making of cuendillar wasn't based on strength in saidar, rather affinity for Earth, which is very uncommon among women. That is why Egwene could make cuendillar so easily, she is the uber in Earth.


RE: Moiraine, what she knows, and how she knows it.

Clearly the "one thing" she knows about her future after the Tower of Ghenjei is her and Thom hooking up. I'm still waiting to learn when she was given foreknowledge of her future relationship with Thom. She knew before going to see the Aelfinn through the doorway in Tear, which also precludes her learning about it in the rings of Rhuidean. That pretty much leaves her Accepted test, or an otherwise unmentioned Foretelling. When she answered Egwene's question, had she ever been in love before, by saying that she would wager she knew the face of her husband better than they, then backpedaled their follow-up questions by saying perhaps she meant that they shared an ignorance, she most definitely cracked out of school. So she knows whom her future holds. Or whom she holds in her future, whatever. Being a fairly practical Cairhienin, once she had sure knowledge of her future romantic connection, she wouldn't waste time on another man. And if it weren't Thom, she wouldn't address a letter to him as "My Dearest Thom".


Edit to add: Ahh, but what does that mean for their first encounter in Emond's Field? I find it hard to imagine how Moiraine would not have known about Thom at that time, and would learn about it between then and when she asks him to go with Nynaeve and Elayne to Tanchico. Awkward?
Mari Davis
288. sheiglagh
Freelancer@285

Re: Moraine and Thom hooking up, my theory it was one of Min's viewings which was never spelled out in the book. It was at Baerlon, in TEOTW when Min was first introduced.

It was the same time that Min knew that she will fall in love with Rand but share him with two other women but not Egwene. Min told Egwene, Rand was not for her.

Re: Bode, thanks. :-) Goes to show how much I miss.
Roger Powell
289. forkroot
sheiglagh@288
Agreed. Moiraine had talked to Min in Baerlon both before and after going to Edmonds Field. Thom was not in her party the first time, but he was when Moiraine came back through with the three boys.

It seems quite reasonable that Min got her viewing of Moiraine and Thom's future together when she saw them in proximity. (Isn't that pretty much what happened with her viewing on Siuan/Bryne?)

What's interesting is we don't really see any changes in Moiraine's interactions with Thom post-Baerlon (although there's not a lot of time before they split up in Shadar Logoth.) So maybe Min didn't tell her right away.

One very plausible explanation: Min and Moiraine wintered together in the mountains (with Rand and Perrin) post-TGH. It seems plausible that with that much time together, Min would let it slip to Moiraine that she had seen that she would marry Thom (even though the vision had occurred in Baerlon.)

Certainly Moiraine's interactions with Thom change when they next come together in the Stone of Tear. Mo holds her cards pretty "close to the chest" at that point :-)
LewsTherin
290. JonMalano
Thank you for letting me lurk & read.More of a wish than a prediction. I would like to see the Brown AS with the "pure white" soul called back when the Horn of V. is winded again.If my wish comes too close to being a spoiler and you decide not to post it,I understand.Thanx again for the entertaining reads TOR.
LewsTherin
291. AndrewB
Freelancer -- IMO, the one thing that Moiraine knew was that Lan's bond would pass to Myrelle with instructions for Myrelle to pass Lan's bond to Nynaeve at an appropriate time. Such knowledge would need not concern Rand.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Alice Arneson
292. Wetlandernw
JonMalano @290 - As you may have realized, when you hit post it's posted. No one edits these for you or decides what can be displayed and what can't. We're all guessing, hoping and speculating based on anything from solid evidence to wild fanatasy.

AndrewB @291 - I would think Moiraine was referring to the ToG rescue (and her relationship with Thom), since she wrote the letter to Thom detailing that event at the same time as she wrote the letter to Rand in which she mentioned the "one small thing." Or, if she didn't write them at the same time, she handed them both to Rand at the same time. Seems like the possibility of rescue would be much more on her mind than the transfer of her Warder's bond, which was already settled (in her mind) long since.
Henry Loose
293. schrodinger
I wonder how many times it will take for me to re-read this series before I finally read and understand every word and nuance that Jordan put in? Just now I started my re-read of tFoH and got to the second page of the prologue: The First Sparks Fall when I came across this:

'Apparently Alviarin experienced no such reluctance. One corner of her mouth quirked momentarily in what might have been a smile or grimace. "I will redouble our efforts to retake Taim. And I suggest that a sister be dispatched to counsel Tenobia. Someone used to overcoming the sort of stubborn resistance that young woman will put up."'

Before, I never really understood where the AS with the borderlanders came from or why, aside from the fact that there were 13 of them there, the borderlander army didn't quite sit right with me. Now I think I understand. The AS are likely to be BA if Alviarin sent them, and the part about 'overcoming the sort of stubborn resistance that young woman will put up' sounds suspiciously like compulsion (also, given that we have seen another (relatively young) ruler in Morgase under compulsion, it is likely that this is indeed the case. It also gives us a likely place that the Black Ajah can flee to in ToM. My bet is that we'll get a perspective from some BA member or Alviarin in Far Madding wondering how Rand had recognized some trap they were setting for him in the city (probably not realizing that he had been there before and had a bad history with the city).

I always admire Jordan when I find something like this, or something like this is revealed (at least, to me). The fact that he hid something so important (a ruler under compulsion) from me by showing the exact same thing (Morgase) somewhere else. My respect for him continues to grow.

edit: the AS that Alviarin eventually sent was Memara (no last name given), a Red. Do we know if she was on Verin's list? Do we have the complete list?
Gunvor Andersson
294. markga
sheiglagh,

Why will Min not have any babies? – Because she will be dead before the end of WoT.

Besides making predictions, Min’s task in the plot so far has been to cheer up Rand and help keeping him sane. That is not necessary any more, and she has no agenda of her own like his other women do. We know that she will sit with the other two by his (dead?) body. She will probably then sacrifice herself to help resurrect him – what else could she do?

(The other – less probable – scenario is that after TG, when the t’averen pull wanes, Min’s infatuation with Rand is also gone and she goes back to the stable in Baerlon. To me, she does not feel like a real woman, more the object of a male pipedream of being so sexy that even women not interested in men fall for you.)
Henry Loose
295. schrodinger
markga

I foresee a happy ending for Min. I think it really is love that she feels for Rand, not just the T'averen pull of his (evident by the Warder bond). Up until recently, she was completely in love with him. Then Semi forced Rand to try and kill her. This is also the point that Rand completely shuts her out (she compares it to a lamp whose final flickering flame has gone out). Now that Rand is epiphanized, I think the flame will be back, and through the exposure to the Warder bond, Min will again come to feel safe and happy with Rand. If she does die, I might have to head to BYU with some 'delicate Aiel questioning' in mind (disclaimer: I do not actually intend to ply Mr. Sanderson with 'delicate Aiel questioning' in the event of Min's death nor do I urge others to do it... there, that should satisfy my lawyer (-;).
Birgit
296. birgit
I just see things when I look at people, and sometimes I know what they mean. I look at a man and a woman who've never even talked to one another, and I know they'll marry. And they do.
EotW ch. 15


This might be a viewing about Moiraine and Thom. Min might have seen them when they visited Baerlon before they went to the Two Rivers and met each other.

Ability with the weave improved with practice, but of the Five Powers, strength in Earth was the key, and beside Egwene herself, only nine sisters in the camp - along with two of the Accepted and nearly two dozen novices - had sufficient of that to make the weave work at all.
CoT ch. 17


Eg, Leanne and Bode are the fastest cuendillar makers, but there are some others who can do it.
diane heath
297. jadelollipop
Re: Min's viewings of who will marry. This is reminiscent (sp?) of Polgara and her bell rings when couples met. She missed the knowledge about Durnik because the telltale ring was lost in the sound of the blacksmith hammer...
Min mentions that she is unable to see viewings about herself (wonders if she will have Rand's children too) so how did she know she would fall for Rand? Saw her with him in his aura?
Gunvor Andersson
298. markga
schrodinger,

Yes, Min’s love for Rand is real, but it’s against her own nature. She knows that already in Baerlon when she sees Rand for the first time.

The others have babies and nations to care for. Min has only Rand; he is everything for her. She really is a tragical figure and when it’s either his life or hers she will not hesitate to sacrifice herself. Who will miss her? Well, Rand, for a little while.
Henry Loose
299. schrodinger
markga

considering how long Rand has mourned Ileyna, it would probably be for more than a little while. I just don't see a situation arising where she will need to sacrifice herself to save him. she will likely be part of saving him, but it will not involve sacrificing herself.
a a-p
300. lostinshadow
I would be very sad if Min were to die at any point. To me, the love that Elayne and Avi have for Rand and vice versa is much more contrived than Min and Rand's relationship.

Personally I'm not clear on what exactly Elayne and Avi actually love and/or want to do with Rand. Min seems to be the only one who really likes Rand the plain duopotamian.

edit: yeay 3 hunny!!!
Maiane Bakroeva
301. Isilel
JonMalano@290:

I would like to see the Brown AS with the "pure white" soul called back when the Horn of V. is winded again.

Ditto. I am pretty sure that Verin was a reincarnated Hero of the Horn.

Another prediction - Elayne will hear from (Ama)Thera that Morgase was last seen in Amador and demand her mother's return from Tuon.
Patrick Huff
302. pattack
I haven't been on here in a while due to a dislike I have found for some of the posters on The Gathering Storm thread. I will make this as brief as possible.

I was talking to a very good friend of mine regarding the allies of Matrim Cauthon and one group that gets overlooked are the Sea Folk. When he released the wind finders held as Damane in Ebou Dar, he inadvertantly made a pact with the sea folk and they are indebted to Mat for their freedom. The Seanchan might be caught between a Rand and a rough Sea...
Alice Arneson
303. Wetlandernw
schrodinger @293 - We don't know for sure about Memara's possible BA affiliation. (If she was on Verin's list, Egwene didn't say so, but then, Egwene only made specific note of 21 of the 203 listed.) We do know that she's not with Tenobia as of the Borderlanders' powwow in the Black Hills. (TPoD Prologue) Her attempts to "bully" Tenobia clearly failed (from POVs in the scene) but we don't know if the obvious bullying may have been a cover for something else (such as Compulsion). We do know that, as of the powwow scene, Tenobia was not behaving in any ways that were inconsistent with the way Ethenielle, at least, saw her normal behavior. So... RAFO? We hope?

jadelollipop @297 - IIRC, the reason Min knows about herself and Rand is that when she saw Rand, she saw him with three women (who would all love him) and recognized one of them as herself. Incidentally, she could also see that Egwene was not one of them. IIRC, it's also the only time she's seen herself in someone else's "picture."
Mari Davis
304. sheiglagh
markga @ 294

Why will Min not have any babies? – Because she will be dead before the end of WoT.


You are so brave Markga for saying that and I agree with you. I am afraid to say that as a prediction because Min is awesome as a character. She is not one of the supergirls and yet her presence is inherent to the plot.

Unfortunately, someone very important to Rand has to die. Remember he has to learn laughter and tears. He had learned laughter, but how will he learn tears?

I have always assumed that Rand is the sacrificial lamb in the series. After all, with all the allusions to the Judeo-Christian religion, it is very hard not to think of the the Rand character as an allusion to Jesus, the shepherd, and who was also the sacrificial lamb. Then again, it will be a very narrow point of view on my part because as we all know already, RJ used all the legends from Arthurian, to the Vikings, to the Egyptians, to the Greeks and Romans, etc.

That said, and I would like to reiterate that I hate saying this, Min is the sacrificial lamb here and at one point, she has to die. :-( And when she does, Rand will know tears, which completes the requirements for him to face the DO and win.

Remember also, at TGS, in Chapter 50 Veins of Gold, when Rand was at Dragonmount, Lewis Therin answered Rand question why they have to go to battle - Why do we go to battle? What is the point? Because each time we live, we get to love again.

After that, Rand figured out that if he lives again, then she might as well.

Rand needs a reason to live, die and be born again. Min's death will teach him that if we follow this logic.

lostinshadow @ 300

I would be very sad if Min were to die at any point. To me, the love that Elayne and Avi have for Rand and vice versa is much more contrived than Min and Rand's relationship.


I don't believe that Elayne and Aviendha's love for Rand is contrived. Elayne already like Rand a lot the first time she saw him when Rand fell in the royal garden in Caemlyn. To Elayne, Rand was just another farmer, but it did not stop her from liking Rand. That Rand turned out to be the Dragon Reborn was immaterial to Elayne.

As for Aviendha, well, the woman did not even want to fall in love with Rand. She tried to escape him so many times. She ran away from him. In fact, she was even willing to die to pay her toh to Elayne for sleeping with Rand.

That both Elayne and Aviendha have responsibilities other than being Rand's lover do not preclude their love for the Dragon Reborn.
Henry Loose
305. schrodinger
Aren't we forgetting tears of joy? I think Rand will cry when Moiraine gets back, not because Min will be dead. Min will survive Rand (at least his first death) because of both her viewing and Nicola's foretelling about 3 women watching Rand's funeral bier (Nicola's gives us the specifics that it is El, Avi, and Min). I think he will cry before he dies, thus, eliminating any 'need' for Min to die. To me, Min dying would be worse for this series than the plotline of doom. If Min died, I would have to stop reading the series. I trust that Jordan was smart enough to not kill Min.
Mari Davis
306. sheiglagh
schrodinger @ 305

Thank you for an optimistic viewpoint. I do hope that RJ planned for TG to be won without any of the major characters dying.

To me, Min is the most down-to-earth character. She's not a Princess/Queen like Elayne or an Amazon like Aviendha. She's just a normal girl from the mountains whose biggest city before hooking up with the AS was Baerlon.

That now she is in the company of nobles, the Dragon Reborn, AS, WO and the Aiel but still keeps a very matter-of-fact point of view makes her very special.

Every important female in the series, including Tuon can channel!!! Except Min of course. That makes her very special to me. :-)
diane heath
307. jadelollipop
I too hope for a "happy ending" with all major characters alive. I think there are enough hints and clues that everyone will survive and get married :)
Re: females who don't channel. What about Faile? Yes more people like Min than Faile.
Am confused about the "laughter and tears" though because Rand as the blind man was to stand on his own grave and weep. He also ended VOG laughing. Yet IIRC Brandon has said that the laughter and tears is only half fulfilled.
And the near death of Min at his own hand was what caused Rand to go so Dark...would be pointless to kill her now.
LewsTherin
308. Snaggletoothedwoman
Freelancer@279
Just checked the passage where the "Jolly Man Library" was mentioned. I believe it speaks in the Old Tongue. Soooooo, maybe when Mat gets there, he will be the one to investigate it, and get some info necessary for the tower.
Tess Laird
309. thewindrose
Snaggletoothedwoman - Nobles are suppose to be able to read the Old Tongue as well - and I am certain Elayne can to some degree. (The Aes Sedai make Novices take lessons on leaning it as well.)
Mat is a special case, he can actually speak it, well:(from aCoS Swovan Night)(Birgitte to Mat)
"Some people speak a few words, a phrase or two, because of the old blood. Usually without understaning what they say, or not quite. But you....One sentence you're an Eharoni High Prince, and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."

Birgittes memories are fading, but I think she is still able to interpret the Old Tongue, Elayne has some knowledge of it, and Mat & Thom are in Caemlyn, which is known per Rands technocolor vision of them in chapter 47 in tGS.
So plenty of people to read the book ter'angreal.
In fact I bet Setelle Anan is there as well. It will be a readathon!

tempest™
James Jones
310. jamesedjones
305 schrodinger
Aren't we forgetting tears of joy? I think Rand will cry when Moiraine gets back, not because Min will be dead.
Crying? Nah. He'll just assume he's gone nuts when he sees her again. "I finally got the voices out of my head, and now I'm hallucinating."
Alice Arneson
311. Wetlandernw
jadelollipop - What Brandon said was "partly fulfilled" was "what Cadsuane has to teach Rand and all the Asha'man." People assume that it is the laughter and tears, and Cadsuane herself is consciously pointed toward teaching him laughter and tears, but we all know that what a character thinks isn't always all there is to it. It's also possible that what Brandon meant was that Rand has now learned his humanity and the meaningful quality of the Wheel, but the Asha'man as a whole still need to learn it. (Not really what I think, but it's possible.)

jamesedjones @310 - LOL!!
LewsTherin
312. up2stuff
I think Min still has purpose. She is trying to find out what Fel had come up with on the seals to the DO's prison and how to seal/remake it. I think she might actually be the one to say, "Lightbulb!! Here's what you gotta do."

I dont think Rand had really shut Min out such as both felt REALLY guilty over the Crap with Semirhage. They seemed to be kind of mutually avioding each other to keep from further hurting the other, which itself caused as much pain or worse.

She is all, "He told me I would be hurt and used as a weapon against him, and I cant let that happen again." Irritatingly, He sees that as "She is scared of me now because of that. I wont force myself on her any more."

I do hope that now she and Rand can stop avoiding each other. I started pulling my hair out when they started all that silly crap. It was making me nuts with him doing that with Avi and Elayne. The same old misinterpretations.
LewsTherin
313. Philinator
So, I just had an interesting (at least in my opinion it's interesting) thought about the four proposed "weaknesses" of the Finns. Seeing as they are adept at looking into futures, could it be that they have seen their eventual demise and know that music, iron, and fire are largely responsible? What if they don't have a natural aversion to any of those stimuli, but simply forbid them in their realm because they are ultimately responsible their world's destruction. You would figure beings that are pretty familiar with the inevitable nature of destiny (at least in the WOT world) would avoid such foolishness. But, characters with foreknowledge of their own demise rarely act rationally in their attempt to avoid it, so I guess it fits.
Honestly it wouldn't really change much, but I think it would be kind of a nice twist. It's actually a little more believalbe than the, "Super Powerful Ancient Beings hate fire and music and iron because they are alergic to it in some weird, never explained way."
Paul Long
314. Caveatar
My First Post Here. Great Site.

Moirane and Lanfear in Finn land.

"At this point I had the right to remain silent...pause...
but I didn't have the ability." (Ron White)

I think both of them had that right to remain silent.
Moiraine had the ability and is still using it.

Lanfear didn't have the ability to remain silent and
"anything she said WAS used against her. "


Moiraine made no agreement with the Finn. She is waiting for an alternate exit from Finnland.
diane heath
315. jadelollipop
Now that it's done, I can sit back and look at the book as a whole. As I said, I'm very pleased with it. For months I've been telling people that I feel that in many ways, it's even more true to the Wheel of Time than THE GATHERING STORM was. I hope to maintain the pacing that made people enjoy TGS, but at the same time TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT has a much expanded scope than the previous novel, showing a larger picture and getting back to many characters who were ignored or had reduced parts in TGS. Though we are jumping back in time for a few viewpoints to catch them up, it does also continue Rand/Egwene and other characters who had a large focus in TGS.

Above is quote from Brandon's blog
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/911/TOWERS-OF-MIDNIGHT-Is-Done
Mari Davis
316. sheiglagh
jadelollipop @ 315 - Thanks for the link.

Quote from Brandon Sanderson's blog:

I hope that you enjoy it. There are some scenes in it we've been waiting to read for a long, long time. Scenes that made my heart break to write, and others that bring a smile to my face every time I look through them again.


Oh no!!! What has been heartbreaking for him to write??? Now, I'm really excited to read the book and also nervous that someone will die. :-(

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/911/TOWERS-OF-MIDNIGHT-Is-Done
LewsTherin
317. AndrewB
See the quote from BWS' blog that Sheiglagh @316 --

"Scenes we've been waiting to read for a long, long time." Hopefully this means that Moiraine's rescue will not start in ToM and end in AMoL. Rather, this story line will be resolved in this novel.

Also, I wonder if we will finally learn who killed Asmodean.

"Scenes that made my heart break to write." Sounds like a significant "Light" character will die. It would be too much to hope that Faile or Nynaeve (my two least favorite characters) die.

I will make a wild prediction that Lan will die and that Nynaeve will not have an opportunity to receive Lan's bond from Myrelle.

If it is not Lan that dies, then I predict that Gawyn will die. Remember, somebody had an alternative dream/viewing of Gawyn. Depending upon the decisions he makes, he will either have a long life or violent death. It would be a nice twist if we did not get a happy ending with Gawyn having a long life with a marriage to Egwene.

" bring a smile to my face every time I look through them again." Could one such scene be Egwene's bonding of Gawyn. Another such scene could be Aviendha laying a bridal wreath at Rand's feet.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Mike DMonte
318. MickeyDee
On the "three become one" I had two thoughts one when reading this for the first time and another only when getting towards the end of TGS:

1. This was an "obvious" reference to Min's vision of Rand and Perrin standing together against the shadow; and how the fire-flies multiplied and increased against the blackness. Add Mat into the mix and the forces for the Light would be increased. And of course we "all know" that the Two Rivers Trio will all be vital in the Last Battle.

2. Rand using Saidin and Saidar through Callandor and the True Power through his link with Ishamael (yeah, yeah I know his PR people have been spouting that he is to be and should only be referred to as "Moridin", but we all know that the Chosen formerly known as Ishamael only went through the name change for legal reasons).

On a separate prediction I foresee that this coming season will see that Black will be the new Black and that lace at the cuffs of mens sleeves will enjoy a popular resurgence. Feel free to suggest alternative sartorial views.

;) Mike
Mari Davis
319. sheiglagh
MickeyDee @ 318

On a separate prediction I foresee that this coming season will see that Black will be the new Black and that lace at the cuffs of mens sleeves will enjoy a popular resurgence. Feel free to suggest alternative sartorial views.


LOL My forecast - the cadensor will be in vogue and there will be a Fashion's Night Out in Caemlyn when Mat and the Band arrive with Thom performing on stage and Birgitte hosting THE SHOW at the Caemlyn Center where 150 looks from the whole of Randland plus a few pieces from the Seanchan will be shown. As for bling, everything goes, including angreal, sangreal and t'angreal except for the a'dam which the Dragon Reborn basically said that it is a fashion no no for the whole of Randland.

;-)
Maiane Bakroeva
320. Isilel
Sheiglagh @316:

Oh no!!! What has been heartbreaking for him to write???

Well, I am all for a good heartbreak - IMHO saving the world would feel cheap and flat without some irreversibly ultimate sacrifices by the heroes. So, I am convinced that Lan, for one, _will_ die before it is over and stay dead.
But there was that Min-vision of a babe with a sword in his aura and it is too early for Nynaeve to get knocked up and suffer from channeling problems, IMHO.

Maybe it is about Bashere's death and destruction of Aiel who remained in the Waste. Bashere is well-liked and the latter would certainly be very heartbreaking, particularly since I suspect that we'll see it through Aviendha's POV.

MickeyDee @318:

Min actually saw the fireflies surrounding the whole party coming out of TR in TEoTW. I don't remember if Nynaeve was already with them or not, but it is not just the 3 ta'veren thing, IIRC.
Paul Long
321. Caveatar
Sheiglagh @316:

Oh no!!! What has been heartbreaking for him to write???

Heartbreaking?
The only scene in all the books that I would consider heartbreaking was the incident when the Aiel sang to the madman to allow the people time to escape.

The Shadow Rising ch:26
Sedai, some of us wish to remain. We can serve, still.”

“Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?” He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. “Of course you do. You Da’shain have more courage than . . . Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him. And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood.”

“Many people had time to flee, Aes Sedai. The Da’shain earned them time to flee. We are not afraid.”

Several other scenes have been touching but I think "heartbreaking" may mean something different to the writer than it does to me.
Perhaps the Song is found and the Mahdi/Seeker/One Rightly Guided leads all the Traveling people to do something similar?

Speaking of which, can ANY of the other 2000 or so characters in the book be said to be 'rightly guided'?
LewsTherin
322. sleepinghour
Well, I can think of plenty of heartbreaking scenes that wouldn't involve characters dying. Rand learning that he's going to be a father, knowing he won't live to see them born. Nynaeve learning how many Two Rivers people died in the trolloc attacks (she saw the monument in T'A'R, but never knew what it was). Perrin learning that it wasn't trollocs that killed his family.

A lot of people would like for Gawyn to die, so of course he won't. Lan's death would be tragic, yes, but also leave a bitter taste given how much he deserves to see Malkier resurrected, and everything Moiraine and Nynaeve did to keep him alive--especially Nynaeve's actions in KoD.
Paul Long
323. Caveatar
306. sheiglagh

Thank you for an optimistic viewpoint. I do hope that RJ planned for TG to be won without any of the major characters dying.

To me, Min is the most down-to-earth character. She's not a Princess/Queen like Elayne or an Amazon like Aviendha. She's just a normal girl from the mountains whose biggest city before hooking up with the AS was Baerlon.

That now she is in the company of nobles, the Dragon Reborn, AS, WO and the Aiel but still keeps a very matter-of-fact point of view makes her very special.

Every important female in the series, including Tuon can channel!!! Except Min of course. That makes her very special to me. :-)
---------

I consider Min as The Philosopher.

She does THINK while most of the others seem to only rearrange their prejudices.

I hope she meets up with the OTHER Philosopher, The DO Champion, Ishy and has a discussion with him.

Perhaps she could convince him that he doesn't have to destroy EVERYTHING and only needs to see to it that his soul is never reborn and that existence will end for him.

An American Indian (Blackfoot) statement of belief is that "The World began when I was born and the day I die it shall cease to exist." which could be said to be true of everyone from each personal viewpoint.

Perhaps a Draghkar could consume his soul. (Do such victims ever get reborn?)
Hmmmm. Soul is consumed before the life is eaten and maybe if interrupted between the two an empty body would be available for some other soul??
a a-p
324. lostinshadow
maybe one of the scenes that brings a smile to his face and that we have all been waiting a long time to read is some kind of reunion between our three guys? or maybe even the whole Duopotamian set?

heartbreaking? maybe Siuan dies or is taken in the second Seanchan attack? or better yet Egwene is? it would probably be pretty heartbreaking (even to those of us who don't like her) to read about Egwene's reaction to being collared a second time? (I don't care what maturity she gained in TGS regarding pain, no way can she deal with being collared) And then is helped out by a Seanchan?
Marcel xxx
325. lowlandr
@ 320 Isilel
Yes, Nynaeve is part of the group. When the group is Baerlon Min tells Rand that they are all linked. (don't have the book for reference)


I wonder what will happen to Lan (will he live?) and his borderlands army? It kind of sounds like a repeat with the Malkier 46/47 years ago.
Will Lan be in time in Tarwin's Gap to stop the hordes of Trollocs/Myrddraal and will the White Tower be in time to help out? And why hasn't Nynaeve paid a visit to Egwene to have her sent some AS to help Lan? :s

Also, if one of the AS with Rand is black (Cadsuane-there are some theories out there), I guess on Min's live is very much possible. As showed in the 3/1 Callandor-discussion in TGS she's good in analyzing prophecies and related theories. Harid Fell was killed for this knowledge, which is Min gaining slowly. The question is, how fast will the one who ordered the hit on Herid learn about Min's progress...
Alice Arneson
326. Wetlandernw
lowlandr @325 -
"A woman arrived a little while ago - shorter than I, young, with dark eyes and dark hair in a braid down to her waist. She's part of it, right along with the rest of you....
"The sparks, Rand. She met Mistress Alys coming in, and there were sparks, with just the two of them. Yesterday I couldn't see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it's all sharper, and more furious."
There is a possibility of more BA around Rand; at least two of the others (besides Elza) who swore fealty to Rand are, for certain, though to the best of our knowledge they are both still in Cairhien with the Wise Ones. However, Verin was completely satisfied that Cadsuane was not Black. What more proof do you want?
Mari Davis
327. sheiglagh
Caveatar @323
I consider Min as The Philosopher.
She does THINK while most of the others seem to only rearrange their prejudices.

Agreed and I think that is what also makes her so awesome. :-)

lowlandr @325

I for one does not want Lan to die. He has given his whole life to duty. He has earned the right to be happy. I hope RJ saw it that way too. But, what I am wishing might be so different from what ToM and MoL will say.
Rob Munnelly
328. RobMRobM
No way Lan is dying. Happy ending with Nyneave, babies and Sharina as resident cool chick up in the restored Malkier is in the works.

Rob
Alice Arneson
329. Wetlandernw
sheiglagh @327 - Brandon was recently quoted as saying
Well, the Last Battle is close, so things aren't getting brighter. There's a reason Mr. Jordan named the last volume A Memory of Light.
There are definitely going to be some dark times. That said, I too hope that Lan and Nynaeve get a chance to begin the reestablishment of Malkier. I'm holding on to the idea that Min's "baby in cradle with sword" viewing of Lan is indicative of a new tradition in the new Malkier, wherein the new heir is given the sword and the oath taken on his behalf, as it was with Lan.
T C
330. Freelancer
Moiraine will make good on a promise she made to Lan more than twenty years previously. When he learned she intended him as her Warder, he demanded an answer to why the Aes Sedai didn't try to save Malkier. She told him the truth, and said where the Aes Sedai of that time chose to return to the Tower and pretend they hadn't tried to come, rather than have their failure be public, had it been her charge she would have continued on to Malkier no matter what.

Once she is out of the Tower of Ghenjei, she will go to Lan and aid him at Tarwin's Gap, as the Aes Sedai who helps start the recovery of Malkier. It's fitting, and she owes him, for his decades of service.
LewsTherin
331. j0shle0
@ MickeyDee

The whole line is.

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

I think the three being talked about are Lews Therin, Moridin, and Rand. I'll wait for a response before I expatiate further.
Barry T
332. blindillusion
Tuon will think to use Mat's honor against him, i.e. He always holds true to the oaths he makes.

Cue in her testing of his Oath to ler her go, which ties in to her question of whether he had taken the Oaths, though he fought against the Seanchan upon their arrival in Ebou Dar.

She will decided at the last moment not to do this, thus beginning her realization the she does have feelings for her Prince of Ravens.

...Did it seem to anyone else that Tuon seeking whether or not Mat keeps to the oaths he takes was a rather large theme during their time together....

edit: Hmm, I must have been tired last night. I hardly remember writing this. Spooky.
Joshua Leonard
333. j0shle0
@ blindillusion

Did you not read TGS?
Hikmah San
334. sanhikmah
Just one thing. Ogier is a natural. Nym is constructed. It would be interesting to see how something that happens to be the natural life built .... It just does not seem like something someone wants to do.
Mari Davis
335. sheiglagh
Wetlandernw @329
There are definitely going to be some dark times.

Yes, I know. :-(
But, I'm just hoping for a happy ending. :-)
Marcel xxx
336. lowlandr
@ 326 Wetlandernw
The group:
"She's part of it, right along with the rest of you...."
I wonder if people like Elayne or Aviendha are also 'part of it'... Maybe well get a big groupreunion in ToM. *hopes*

Cadsuane/Min:
I would be very surprised if Cadsuane was Black, Verin for one, second: the set-up with the theft and use of the male a'dam , third: Min's viewings about Cadsuane having to teach Rand and the Asha'man.

But my point is that Herid Fel was killed by a gholam. Gholams are elite assassins, immume to channeling, superfast and nearly unkillable. Why would you send a gholam to kill a simple, non-channeling (sometimes bit distracted) scholar? First, Herid must have been important enough (due to his knowledge) to kill (=motive). Second you want to make absolutely certain that Herid gets killed (=means). I can't recall if it is known (or theorized) who ordered the hit.
But if the one who ordered the hit finds out Min is Herid's 'apprentice' and doing a pretty good job at it, I think she get a pretty bit target on her back.

@327 sheiglagh
I hope that Lan survives too, but I won't get my hopes up too high. There has been enough foreshadowing about Lan and the war with the Blight. I really do hope he gets his MoA (fitting if he dies).

@330 Freelancer
IIRC (don't have the books here) Moiraine makes him a promise in NS about the most effective way of battling the Blight is by serving her as her Warder and help her search the Dragon Reborn. I don't recall her making promises about the Malkier.

I also wonder if she would go to Lan to help him out with battle. From the Moiraine I know (though we don't know how she changed with the Finns), she would help the DR with his battle (personal and TG). Yes, she owns Lan for his years of service (and friendship), but the DR and TG was (is) the most important she ever fought for (even more then her own life).

@ 335 Sheiglagh
What I really hope for is a worthy ending of the Wheel of Time. I could settle with a 'less' happy ending, as long as the ending 'feels right'.
Don't get me wrong, I would prefer an happy ending, but I rather have a 'less' happy ending which is worthy of WoT, then on which has a happy ending and is a (bit) lame. But I have faith in RJ to have a great ending.


Edit:
I'm also looking forward to the Stomp and the meeting between the Randland Ogier (Loial) and the Gardeners.
Maiane Bakroeva
337. Isilel
Maybe I am a doom and gloom person, but Holywood endings feel false to me. Yes, even in fantasy/SF.

I mean, end of the last WOT age was catastrophic - nobody who was alive during it lived to see the beginning of the new age. And this time around is supposed to be comparable - so how could everybody of importance surviving and restoration of old kingdoms fit? End of an age is supposed to clear the ground for _new_ things. YMMV.

Well, I guess that the Columns chapter in TSR ("Dedicated") isn't my absolutely favorite piece of WoT for nothing. It is tragic and poignant and yet so full of hope and triumph of human perseverance...

Anyway, here is the death list (and I mean irrevocable deaths here) of significant sympathetic (well, at least to somebody, not obvious villains) characters I expect at the end of AMoL, though most of them won't come to pass in ToM, IMHO:

Rand or Perrin
one of Egwene, Elayne or Nynaeve
Lan
Siuan and Bryne
Gawyn
Rhuarc and maybe Amys too
Cadsuane (ToM death?)
Sorilea
Bashere (ToM death)
Leane (ToM death)
Alanna (maybe not sympathetic or that significant, but ToM death)
Faile? One can hope ;).
Jur Grady (not very significant, but clearly marked for the chop, IMHO)
Noal (ToM death)
Elyas

All the Borderland royalty is going to be axed too (in ToM?), as well as all/most Aiel who remained behind in the Waste and countless other bit characters.

IMHO, YMMV.
Marcel xxx
338. lowlandr
@337 Isilel

I don't know about all of them, but I think you are very much on the right path.

It would only make sense to me that the Shadow does a pre-emptive strike at the keyfigures of Team Light (ta'veren, royalty/leaders, generals, advisers, etc.) just before (or during) TG. What better way to create a chaos with all the keyfigures killed/wounded.

"IMHO, YMMV."
considering you usually type sense... ;)
I read your post always with much interest

I wonder of the effects of Alanna's death on Rand.
LewsTherin
339. MickeyDee
@306. sheiglagh

Thank you for an optimistic viewpoint. I do hope that RJ planned for TG to be won without any of the major characters dying.


Seriously, if this was to occur after nineteen frigging years of reading this series I will plant my head through a wall. If none of thee major "good guys" bite it then where is the risk? Why should I even care when they are placed in a dangerous situation? Any and all emotional investment in the characters is based upon a fraud. I did not stay with this series for another freakin' Belgariad-style happy-ending. If all I was after was a happy ending there are places I can go to sort me out on that. ;)

Nope, if there is any value in the victory of the forces of Light then it has to be paid for by the characters we know and love. Cheesy Hollywood-style endings be damned. WoT is better than that. Matthew Reilly scored points with me when he killed off a popular character (and the hero's #1 love interest) part-way through a book. What that then meant to you as a reader was that anytime a character's back was to the wall from then on you sat up with whitened knuckles. Crap! So-and-so could really be up for it now!

@337. Isilel

Respect! Nice list. Now this is the sort of price (sacrifice) needing to be paid that makes the LB mean something.
Daniel Hanley
340. dmhman749
Wow...thats pretty harsh Isilel and MickeyDee...I think a few of those will certainly die, but not anywhere close to that whole list. And to MickeyDee, why does someone have to actually die for you to think that there might be a risk for the others? Because we are having this discussion right now, apparently RJ has convinced us that he might kill off one of the main characters, so we can never be sure until we actually read it--meaning that the tension is there in reading it. But ultimately, i don't think he will.

There is plenty of room for tragedy in the end of the third age without killing off the main chars in job lots.

Of that entire list, i expect possibly Gawyn, possibly Lan(though I hope not...the signs for the possibility are there. If so, i think it will be the most tragic of the deaths), definitely Cadsuane, possibly Sorilea, definitely Bashere, definitely Alanna, possibly Jur Grady, and definitely Noal.

For why the survivals:
-Rand: Well, hes going to die once and come back. "To live, you must die" - after he does through the dying part, it doesn't make much sense for him to end up ultimately dead anyway.
-Perrin: Too much build up to the creation of a second Manetheren from Saldaea to Ghealdan. The whole thing falls apart without him.
-Elayne: needed to rule Andor/Cairhein.
-Egwene: I can almost see this, as it would be interesting if she died in end of TG, and Logain took over the unification of the towers. I doubt it though. Too much effort was put into her growing into someone worthy of being Amyrlin over the last couple books to knock her off.
-Nynaeve: needs to have Lan's kid first. You really think the last battle is going to be 9 months from the current time in the books?
-Suian: Why would she die? she has come to accept her new behind the scenes roll as councilor...i just can't see any reason why her death would be of benefit to the plot.
-Bryne:won't die unless suian does, which i just can't see happening.
-Rhuarc and Amys:These are the two primary aiel we actually care about. They are needed for the rebuilding of what is left of the Aiel after TG.
-Leane: Same deal as Suian
-Faile: I wouldn't mind her death, but she will survive for the same reason as Perrin - she is needed to add saldaea to Manetheren.
-Elyas: Don't really care one way or the other, which is probably why he will survive. Ultimately, he is a surviver, and as killing him wouldn't accomplish anything significant(I personally would just see it as another secondary character biting the dust and move on), i think that his innate ability to survive whatever gets thrown at him will keep him alive.

Overall, i think there will be tragedy, sure (entire nations are already starving, the Seanchan still hold a third of the continent, so there is still plenty of war to go around after TG). But the peices are there to allow for the creation of the 4th age...I think greater focus will be put on the beginning of rebuilding in the last couple of chapters than the sorrow and loss for the end of an age.

Keep in mind that the ending to this series was created almost 20 years ago, back when fantasy was expected to have reasonably happy endings. The fact that huge segments of the population and significant numbers of secondary characters are going to die would have been rather groundbreaking back then.
T C
341. Freelancer
It appears that everybody will be in for a few surprises. Let us hope no walls have to have heads embedded in them as a result.
Henry Loose
342. schrodinger
heads go through desks...
FISTS go through walls.
Daniel Goss
343. Beren
Books go through expensive plasma TVs that were just installed . . .
Rob Munnelly
344. RobMRobM
Oh my goodness - people supporting Lsiel's pessimistic predictions. Is this a first? Is this the first real sign that TG is upon us? Head for the hills....!!!

LOL, Rob
diane heath
345. jadelollipop
Knowledge of the outrigger plan re: Mat and Tuon returning to Seanchan territory after TG keeps me happy as the death of Mat would indeed be heartbreaking.
I know that some want a bloodbath but I prefer happy endings and think the foreshadowing of prior books
lets us know that most (all) major characters will survive.
OTOH I do expect some of the 2nd tier folk to die.
1. Cadsuane--her age and her desire to live to see the LB...not a guarantee that she will survive
2. Bashere--he is a popular guy but as has been stated before Perrin and Faile may well rule in Saldea
(unless the broken crown was just another variant of falcon)
3. Loial ---this would be a shock and a heartbreaking death to write
James Hogan
346. Sonofthunder
To comment on the likelihood of character deaths, while I wouldn't be shocked at some characters dying, I would be saddened if the last book was merely a bloodbath. If the characters' deaths contribute to the story and are not gratutiously written in, then fine. I just don't want it to feel like Harry Potter, where few characters die up until the last book, where it felt like characters were dying just for the sake of making the ultimate book "impactful". RJ has already established a style that does not kill off characters except for very good reasons...and a main character bloodbath in the final book would feel odd. Even if it is TG and I'm sure there will be plenty of death and tragedy, I don't think we'll see a lot of characters dying. At least, that's my opinion. And yes, I do like happy fantasy endings. How'd you guess??
Paul Long
347. Caveatar
Totally irrational prediction.

Olver still has something to do.

He loves horses and is a heckuva jockey.
He loves the game and still hasn't given up.
While Mat and Thom and the other are preparing to enter the tower,
Olver rides up on Wind after having chased them across the plain yelling "Mat, MAT, I WON the GAME! I WON!"
Then proceeds to tell Mat how he won with 3 players instead of the usual 2.
Several other wild ideas on how to win but those are even worse than this one.
Joshua Leonard
348. j0shle0
Also remember that one of Min's viewings was Birgitte with an older man and a much younger man. It's probable that Olver is a hero reborn.
Daniel Hanley
349. dmhman749
Well, the much older and much younger man has to be Gaidal Cain, and RJ explicitely stated in one of his interviews that Olver is not a reborn Gaidal Cain, since although time can flow fast or slow in T'A'R', it never flows backwards(Spend a week in T'A'R' and a day or a month might have passed in Randland, but its never 10 years earlier). RJ said that Gaidal Cain's role would be in the events following TG...possibly planned to be a char in the later planned books about Mat and Tuon.

Not that Olver might not come up with something additional for the rescue too, even though he isn't Gaidal Cain, but i highly doubt he is going to be the third person who enters.
Mari Davis
350. sheiglagh
lowlandr @ 336, Isilel @337, MickeyDee @339, dmhman749 @340, Sonofthunder @346

Whoaa!!! We are all so passionate about WoT. :-)

First, I'd like to say that I do believe in earning the victory and if someone has to make a sacrifice (as in dying), then the right to make that sacrifice has to be earned too.

Second, someone here wrote already that RJ have already shown that he does not kill off a character just for the sake of killing. There has to be a reason. Case in point, Tylin might be secondary character but her death still counted.

Third, I will probably cry (as in real tears) when I read ToM and MoL. I already cried at TGS. The scene between Rand and Tam just broke my heart. :-( For that scene alone, I loved TGS!

That said, here are my predictions of tearjerker scenes like the Rand and Tam encounter.

Galad and Morgase - They do love each other as mother and son, though they are only "stepmom and stepson." That Galad was willing to sheathe the sword to defend Morgan's honor earned him that reunion.

Rand and Moraine - Rand always have Moraine on top the list of women who had died for him and Moraine's name is "etched on his soul". As for Moraine, she spent her whole life trying to find the Dragon Reborn. Both Rand and Moraine had earned that reunion.

Lan and the Malkiers - Lan had refused to lead the remaining Malkiers to reclaim their land (after all they are an endangered species, no pun intended, just using a term). That the Malkiers are willing to go where their uncrowned king will go, both Lan and the Malkiers have earned that too, a reunion.

If these happen, these scenes will make me cry.
Joshua Leonard
351. j0shle0
dmhman749 @ 349

I didn't know RJ had said that about Gaidal Cain. Also, if the cover art is to be believed, the third person going into the tower can only be Noal.
LewsTherin
352. martianblues
i was wondering if Perrin will finally meet Egwene or one of the others in Tel'aran'rhiod and learn what the wolf dream is. I think he may also have a show down with Slayer in TAR.

Someone is going to have to take out Fain at some point, and I think someone may die on his blade trying to protect Rand from another attack by him.

There was a mention of Nicola making a foretelling of the DR doing nine impossible things. I can think of three or four possibly, but what of the others? Any ideas?
James Hogan
353. Sonofthunder
martianblues@352, wasn't that when Nicola started making Foretellings up? I got the impression that she eventually just started "foretelling" for the attention. *shrugs* Although, I'm sure Rand *will* do quite a few previously considered *impossible* things. Cleansing saidin was supposed to be impossible!
Alice Arneson
354. Wetlandernw
martianblues:

: "Ever since we found out she has the Foretelling, she's been Foretelling two or three times a day, to hear her tell it. battles with the Seanchan or the Asha'man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach..."
LewsTherin
355. valav
To forkroot @223 & wetlander @ 221

I said teleport cause they aren't going to march all the way there. I'm not sure if they will use the Wqays, via Telaranrhid, Skimming or some other neat forsaken trick.

And I meant bonding Tuon like a warder. That way, when Tuon leashes Egwene she'll know exactly what it feels like.

And my bad, I totally forgot about Elayne as Queen and Carriden eating it. I'm still on Path o' Daggers on my re-read.

Also forgot about seanchan and forkroot stores. I just mentioned it since I believed it will be used to uncover Tuon's "gift" I like the prediction that her underling will use it on her to try and take the throne.

Also, Freelancer @ 225

You neatly tie up the stated Dark Prophicies about Rand/LTT with the exception of the first sentence, "Power of the Shadow made human flesh". Care to comment?

I also liked the thought on the jolly fat library ter'angreal. I'd forgotten about that one. Maybe it will reveal the technology, assembly line!
Mike DMonte
356. MickeyDee
340. dmhman749
Wow...thats pretty harsh Isilel and MickeyDee.

Wow! Actually you're right I do come across as rather harsh. Sorry about that but I had just returned home after a work trip so I was tired and grumpy and jet-lagged. Well OK , maybe not jet-lagged, it was only a 90 minute flight. And yes OK, I'm grumpy a lot of the time. And OK, OK, at my age with four teenage kids I'm always tired. Where does that leave me? Oh, right. No excuses.

342. schrodinger
heads go through desks...
FISTS go through walls.

Schrodinger, I would postulate that Fists go through doors and windows and gates and not walls, or at least when they go through walls they only do so in pre-existing gaps.

Evidence:
Attack on the Al'Thor farm EOTW (door)
Isam's logistical efforts in hunting Fain and providing some minor distraction for Perrin TSR (gate - well OK waygate)
Trolloc weddingcrashers at Loial and Erith's nuptials KOD (barndoors, manor windows); note: nearly everyone has misinterpreted this scene as an attack on Rand et al.

And since I think it is only fair to add a prediction in a predictions thread with a reply (something I had failed to do last night) I'll add a prediction:

Tah-eem, sorry Taim, will overplay his hand and be spanked with great loss of life and great destruction to property by Logain and his entourage. The White Tower will be angling to investigate happenings at the BT at the time but will play no significant part in the turf war.
It will be revealed that Taim has been Friend of the Dark for many years and has had personal instruction from Elan Morin Tedronai, who sees in him a vehicle to spread male fashion sense throughout the Westlands. Oh and as a lackey, gofer and enforcer.
Mari Davis
357. sheiglagh
Here's a crazy theory... The Dragon is the head of the White Tower, not the Amyrlin Seat.

From the whole series, Dragon is a title, similar to Amyrlin Seat. All AS are servants and the Dragon is the head servant in a manner of speaking. The original Aiel served the AS, ergo, the Aiel is the people of the Dragon.

Now, for Rand's time, the Aiel might be his people because he is part Aiel, but the current day Aiel is also his people and so are the Tinkers because all are descendants of the original Aiel who served the AS and the Dragon.

So, can the Amyrlin Seat's wrath as foretold by Elaida be from the realization of every AS that Rand as the Dragon Reborn be their leader and not Egwene who is the current Amyrlin Seat?

Up to now, Rand has never been to the White Tower, though it was his destination when he left the Two Rivers. What if Rand goes to the White Tower and the Tower's magic, enchantment through the angreal, sangreal and t'angreal in there, or the physical Tower itself recognizes its "master" in a manner of speaking. (I'm using the word "master" loosely here.)
Mike DMonte
358. MickeyDee
Has anyone else noticed that flying has become just so much more inconvenient? I mean two hours between getting to an airport and actually taking off. 90 minutes in the air and then another two hours to get out of the airport and out of the long-term car-park. I mean..seesh! Maybe in the next series of 24 they can have Jack Bauer take a commercial flight from say LA to Denver and back again. That will take care of 12 of the 24 hours.

Oh, right. I need to provide a prediction now. OK...

Galad Damodred will make a formal play for the throne of Cairhien (located East of Key West). He will set the jewel of Meyene to his will. The people will respect and obey him. Thus will he be loved. He will make Gold and White the new Black.This I Foretell.


He has the best remaining claim after all and will always do what is right no matter the cost to himself or others. I don't believe that he necessarily wants the throne but he will claim it as it is his duty. I mean just look at his pedigree:

He is sired by Taringail Damodred, out of Tigraine Mantear, and is the only non-b'stard to count as a legitimate claimant.

Elayne Trakand's claim is through Taringail Damodred and Morgase Trakand but let's face it, both she and Gawyn are b'stards as Taringail was not free to marry Morgase though neither party was aware of that at the time. Nevertheless the marriage is null and void. So Elayne is illegitimate and since Cairhien does not have the matrimony-bias of Andor this will be a factor when revealed. Note, this has no bearing on her legitimacy as a ruler of Andor. Morgase being alive may - but that is for another discussion.

Gawyn Trakand - see above.

Moiraine Damodred - will not allow herself to be put forward for the throne when she gets back.

As an aside did anyone else get bemused by the lack of recognition between Elayne and Moiraine in books 2-4? I mean Elayne is Moiraine's niece through Taringail yes? (OK illegitimate niece but still). So why is there never a reference in either's POV to "that Light-blinded niece" or "Burn my interfering aunt"?
It is hardly a remote connection and with Royalty connections are freaking important. More important than wealth. And an intricate component of status. Moiraine Damodred Aes Sedai is of royal blood and no matter whether she has abandoned her claims or not, or consciously sees herself being a Damodred or not, being raised in the royal palace would indelibly etch certain thought patterns into your world-view. Go at it!
Ron Garrison
359. Man-0-Manetheran
Freelancer@330: Agree about Moiraine. I've always felt there was a specific reason that RJ chose to not pass Lan's bond to Nynaeve. And I'm not talking about the "reasons" in the text, but the decision by the author to not make it happen. It would be nice that after the battles in the Blight, she passes it to Nyn directly.
Mari Davis
360. sheiglagh
MickeyDee @358
Has anyone else noticed that flying has become just so much more inconvenient?

I hear you. Travelling is part of my job and come Sept 7 I will be on the road for the next 6 weeks. You know, I really hope that the U.S. revive its train system and use the bullet train like in Japan and in Europe.

Back to Randland

Galad Damodred will make a formal play for the throne of Cairhien.

Agreed. Cairhien has kings though it can also have queens. And because he is FIRST BORN, he should be king first before Elayne can become queen. And well, Elayne already has Andor.

As an aside did anyone else get bemused by the lack of recognition between Elayne and Moiraine in books 2-4?

Elayne does not know and Moraine could not care less about being royalty. Oh, Moraine must care for Elayne the way an elder AS cares for a novice and of course an older person caring for a younger person. But Moraine just can't be bothered with all the royalty stuff.

Also, Moraine's nobility and royalty was not established until the prequel "A New Spring" came out, which came out much later than books 2-4. In short, there was no need to introduce them as aunt and niece because it will just detract from the storyline.
LewsTherin
361. MickeyDee
@360. sheiglagh
Also, Moraine's nobility and royalty was not established until the prequel "A New Spring" came out

You may be right though the banter between Mo and Thom in the salubrious servants quarters in the Stone in TSR does identify Moiraine's royal connections.

My point is it is just so glaringly inconsistent to how royalty would view familial connections.

Oh, I better add another prediction:

Birgitte will cross the path of the new-born Gaidal Cain and find herself immediately disliking the squalling babe for no reason that she can identify.

She will move on and this will be our only clue that he is born into the world. No happy ending for you in this turning Silverbow. Go grab a jug of wine and take it out on Dyelin. (side-note: I really like Birgitte but I simply adore Dyelin - some women have to drag their bait back and forth across the pond indeed!)
Maiane Bakroeva
362. Isilel
Harsh predictions? Pfft. It is the absolute minimum to make the Last Battle and the end of an Age feel as significant and destructive as they are billed. Still not a patch on the end of AoL.

I also don't think that Manetheren or Malkier will be resurrected (new age is for new things) or that the Borderland nations have a future in their current form. IMHO, in the end what will survive of the Borderlanders would be led by Nynaeve/Lan and/or Perrin/Faile, whoever of them survives.

Rowling has been mentioned - indeed, the way she killed some characters was awful. Arguably, the way she reduced them while they were still alive was even more so.
But that's because she set everything up for at least a civil and at worst a global war and then refused to go there.
If everybody but the 3 teenagers wasn't inexplicably cowering in their homes doing nothing, but actually fought, these deaths could have carried the pathos and significance they deserved.

MickeyDee @358:

As an aside did anyone else get bemused by the lack of recognition between Elayne and Moiraine in books 2-4?

Yes, indeed. After all, Elayne couldn't have been unaware that she had a Cahirienin aunt named Moiraine who was an AS and there couldn't have been many in the WT to fit those criteria ;). Thom knew who Moiraine was in TSR.

As to Galad, Cahirienin succession doesn't seem to be based on strict primogeniture. Also, his supposed inflexibility is a bad quality for a ruler.
And finally, IMHO Cahirien is too weakened to survive on it's own. It is dependent on food imports as it is, but Min foresaw a massive famine in Tear, which was supplying Cahirien so far.
Again, changes required by the new age - Andor and Cahirien ceasing to exist as separate countries and merging into something else, IMHO.

Dmhman749 @340:

Rhuarc and Amys:These are the two primary aiel we actually care about. They are needed for the rebuilding of what is left of the Aiel after TG.

But aren't Gaul and his twosome being groomed for this role?
According to the prophecy, there won't be all that many Aiel left, too: "remnant of the remnant will he save".

after he does through the dying part, it doesn't make much sense for him to end up ultimately dead anyway.

Well, the mythological figures that Rand is modeled on didn't exactly go back to (normal) life either. And also, in WoT everybody is reborn and Heroes exist in T'AR so... It would actually make sense that just when we think that Rand has cheated the prophecies, he still has to die for good.

Re: Elayne, didn't BWS say at some point that after reading RJ's notes he now understood why Morgase was still around? This could be a hint.

Those characters not associated with fates of countries, like Siuan and Bryne et al. - well, LB and the end of an age generally are supposed to be devastating and they are bound be in the thick of it. People, including important people, will die. And everything that Min saw about those 2 in particular already came to pass.
Daniel Hanley
363. dmhman749
Valav @ 355
Well, the whole thing is as follows:
"Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream."

It is two distinct sentences. Power of the Shadow made human flesh, wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.

THEN The Reborn one, etc, talking about Rand.

Could be talking about Shadar Haran-He was certainly wakened when the world was falling into turmoil, strife, and ruin. 'human flesh' would suggest possibly not (though myrddraals are throw backs to human stock, so who knows), or maybe its talking about Moridin. Regardless, entirely separately, it then talks about the Dragon reborn and what he is prophesied to do(all of which have been fulfilled). So there is no reason at all to think that the first sentence is talking about Rand. And a great deal of evidence to suggest otherwise.

To Isilel @ 362:
Well...the breaking is talking about what happens to the world as a whole. Between the massive starvation, and all the wars, there is still plenty of breaking to be done to the world. The primary handfull of characters who seem(to me) to have significant roles in the rebuilding after that don't have to die for it to qualify as a breaking.

Also, just because all prophesies about someone are done doesn't mean they are a gonner...writting off every character as soon as their main role is complete would be at least as annoying to me as allowing the main people to survive seems like it would be to you.

But maybe I'm wrong. I guess we will find out. Certainly i see the possibility that one or more of the main chars might die. I just hope not...and lean towards the likelyhood that they will survive.

the only thing i strongly disagree with you in that post is your suggestion that Morgase might be queen...She destroyed her relationships with the other nobles. Elayne had great difficulty in becoming queen because of what her mother had done. I doubt they would ever accept Morgase herself again. I think her role is in convincing Galad that perrin isn't a darkfriend in the next book, not anything to do with andor.

Regardless, i don't see why thinking that the main chars are going to survive would ruin it for you...we all KNOW Mat is going to survive, but people are still interested in Mat's story, because it is an interesting one, and an interesting character.
Tess Laird
364. thewindrose
Hey all-
Linda at the Thirteenth Depository put up 2 articles about where most people are at the end of tGS:

North and South.

tempest™
Eric Neal
365. ewneal
I have been ruminating about the Dark One and what his real goals and plans are...

I think his ultimate goal, as has been stated, is the destruction of the Wheel of Time and the Serpent.

I believe Ishy/Mordin is the only forsaken that truly understands what this means and because of his insanity embraces and actively supports this goal.

All of the other forsaken, and even lesser friends of the dark, seek power and rule over the re-made world. They would not be on board to have everything irrevocably destroyed for that would yield them absolutely nothing.

My theory is this:

The whole of the events in this series, including last battle, are just distractions created by the Dark One. It's purpose is to have everyone, those who follow the light and the dark, so involved in fighting one another that they do not realize his ultimate goal. This distraction is intended to allow the Dark One to finally escape his prison and destroy the Wheel of Time. Rand will have to figure this out, perhaps through Min's continuance of Herid Fel's work, and he will either have to turn Ishy/Mordin to the light or destroy him to thwart the Dark One and to re-seal him in his prison. I would even go so far to say that this knowledge will provide the Dragon the way to unite all of the various factions together in preparation for Tarmon Gaidon.

I am very interested in what insights others can share on these thoughts...

I warmly thank everyone for their posts. I enjoy checking in each day to hear the latest theories!
Birgit
366. birgit
i was wondering if Perrin will finally meet Egwene or one of the others in Tel'aran'rhiod and learn what the wolf dream is.

When Perrin asked Moiraine about Wolfbrothers after meeting Noam, Moiraine tells him about TAR (TDR ch. 9).
LewsTherin
367. martianblues
hmm, I forgot about Moiraine mentioning that in TDR.
ok, rephrase that statement:

i wonder if Perrin will finally meet Egwene or one of the others in Tel'aran'rhiod and learn ABOUT the wolf dream, from a Dreamer.

In TGS he decided to go back into the wolf dream, and was trying to convince Hopper to teach him. Maybe one the other Dreamers can, Egwene or one of the WOs. I'm not sure what the importance of that might be, but the author(s) puttin that scene in of Perrin asking Hopper to learn implies something he might need to do in the dream.
Ron Garrison
368. Man-0-Manetheran
enweal@365:
That's pretty close to what I imagine. Given the yin-yang dynamic inherent in the story, I think it helps to refer to the Dark One as the Destroyer - the opposite of the Creator. Since everything was created by the Creator, the Destroyer was also and is His dynamic opposite.

The goal of the Destroyer is just that: to destroy Creation (the Wheel). Moridin is his champion and is really the interesting part of all this. He was a philosopher originally, and of all the Forsaken, he seems to be the only one who understands what it means if the Destroyer succeeds: Eternal Darkness, Void, Nothingness.

The others are all caught up in world-domination fantasies. They think that if the DO wins, everything will be peachy-keen with them in charge. Oh, are they ever wrong!

I have had this nagging thought that since Moridin is the only one who knows what it means for the DO to win, perhaps he doesn't want oblivion. Who would? As the expression goes, maybe at some point he will "see the light."

The "Do Not Kill" edict put out for Rand was because the Destroyer would rather convert him to the Dark than kill him. How ironic would it be if Moridin coverted to the Light?
Heidi Byrd
369. sweetlilflower
@ MickeyDee #358

Interesting point about the marriage between Morgase and Taringail not being technically valid. Unless Tigraine was declared dead, and she was dead by the time Elayne was born. So, perhaps we could argue that only Gawyn is a bastard, and many people on here argue that already :)

@ Man-0-Manetheran #368

Yeah, it always seemed...odd to me that any reasonably intelligent person would want to be a Darkfriend, especially the White Ajah. I guess they don't call him "Father of Lies" for nothing.
Mari Davis
370. sheiglagh
Why is Gawyn so unloved? Other than just being annoying, he's actually a good guy, at least in my eyes.

Yet, come to think of it, Egwene and Gawyn are both annoying. Maybe, that's why they deserve each other.

But, really... why is Gawyn so unloved in this forum?
T C
371. Freelancer
joshleO@348

Min's viewing about Birgitte and a man older, and a man much younger, the next phrase states that Min's sure it is the same man. Has to be Gaidal, and can't be Olver.


martianblues@352

I've been saying since I read TDR that Rand, Egwene and Perrin need to meet up and learn from each other about T'a'R. Each is competent in different ways about different aspects of the World of Dreams, and once they share knowledge it will unlock some things they can all use.


valav@355

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh" seems pretty straightforward to me. From the beginning until Rand killed him in the Heart of the Stone, Ishamael was portraying himself as Ba'alzamon, allowing people the impression that they were dealing with the dark one himself, and not one of his Forsaken.


sheiglagh@357

The White Tower was constructed hundreds of years after Lews Therin's death which created both Dragonmount and the island of Tar Valon. Hard to imagine that the "Tower itself" could be in any way attuned to the Dragon. There might be a ter'angreal in storage which would "light up" for the eternal Head Honcho Aes Sedai, but unless it spoke in a clear voice, "This is my beloved..." who would know what its actions meant?


MickeyDee@358

Your postulation on the legitimacy of Elayne and Gawyn Trakand is mildly flawed. If you are applying a legal standard, the disappearance of Tigraine was legally taken to represent her death, and so her marriage to Taringail is the one which became nullified. His subsequent marriage to Morgase is completely legal and acceptable from all angles. That we (and Rand) know that Tigraine didn't die until later is irrelevant. And for Elayne's legitimacy for Andor's throne, Morgase spoke the words of abdication, which she will acknowledge once her status among the living is made known to Elayne.

And check your family tree. Taringail Damodred is Moiraine's half-brother from another mother. Elayne wasn't born until after Moiraine had already been in the White Tower for more than six years. Moiraine's own mother was gone, Taringail was no more to her than Galad is to Rand, and her desire to minimize her association with her family's unpleasant history would include not engaging in contact with Andor's royalty. So she and Elayne have had no reason to behave like or think of each other as close relations.


ewneal@365

I think his ultimate goal, as has been stated, is the destruction of the Wheel of Time and the Serpent.
You think? First off, the Great serpent is an even older symbol for the repeating ages than the Wheel of Time, so they represent the same thing. Second, this goal is quite precisely stated many times as the dark one's intent, there need be no guesswork there.

Your next comments are restatements of what Moridin has said to Rand. That the other forsaken are mistaken to think there will be anything left to rule if the dark one wins. He knows it means annihilation, but welcomes it because he's tired of going through this mess over and over again.


birgit@366

Yes, but Moiraine admits that she doesn't know if his WolfDream and T'a'R are the same thing, and it seems she is skeptical that they would be.


Man-o-Manetheran@368

Kind of like Preservation and Ruin?


sheiglagh@370

It's a fairly roundabout business, but some of the Gawyn-haters are simply Elayne-haters in disguise. And since Elayne doesn't like her half-brother Galad, those people gravitate towards Galad, which for some reason causes them to distance themselves from Gawyn. Also, they think Gawyn is a brainless idiot because he sided with Elaida in the Tower coup. That all of it can be explained, and makes reasonable sense, doesn't matter.
Tess Laird
372. thewindrose
Freelancer said:
It's a fairly roundabout business, but some of the Gawyn-haters are simply Elayne-haters in disguise. And since Elayne doesn't like her half-brother Galad, those people gravitate towards Galad, which for some reason causes them to distance themselves from Gawyn. Also, they think Gawyn is a brainless idiot because he sided with Elaida in the Tower coup. That all of it can be explained, and makes reasonable sense, doesn't matter.


Wait for it...












That's because Gawyn was Compelled right before Elaida's Coup, I guess to be an idiot;)

tempest
LewsTherin
373. Seamus1602
Freelancer@271

I'm someone who is staunchly anti-Gawyn, pro-Galad (now), and pro-Elayne. Elayne never bugged me any more than the other SGs, and I didn't start reading the series until mid-2009, so her Succession storyline went by pretty quickly for me (no waiting b/w books).

I do take exception with the idea that 'it can all be explained and makes reasonable sense' re: Gawyn. Gawyn ignores the desires and loyalties of his sister and her friends. Elayne, Egwene, Nyn, and Min all make perfectly clear their loyalties to Siuan. Gawyn ignores this out of a personal dislike of Siuan (because of her treatment of Elayne, which Elayne defends!). But it's really his hypocrisy that irks me. He'll fight his teacher to keep AS law, but then help Siuan and Min escape (against the will of the Amyrlin and AS law). He talks incessantly about defending Elayne yet never works to actually be near her, even when he knows where she is. He believes rumor over the word of his supposed love.

In the end, Gawyn does not come across as reasonable , nor does any explanation for his behavior present itself beyond, "He consistently works to maintain status with the AS, unless Min or Egwene is involved, in which cases he will break AS law/will. However, he will not break AS law to go to his sister, for whose safety he claims to be responsible. He maintains this pro-WT stance even knowing the Amyrlin wishes him to be disposed of (and won't let him into TV!)"

The one explanation I come back to is his idea that saying 'in' with the TAS will ensure his place at his sister's side when the WT is reunited. However, if that's his motivating factor, he has no reason to become involved in the original fight against the Warders. He does so because of personal animosity toward Siuan born of his unwillingness to trust his sister and her friends. I do not consider that to be reasonable nor do I find it to be a worthy explanation of his actions.

Somehow these responses always grow to larger proportions than I would like. I'm sure the Gawyn issue has been argued endlessly in various forums, so I doubt I'm saying things that haven't already been said. Gawyn just gets under my skin. Especially cause I continually am getting the feeling that Gawyn is going to serious screw something up for Rand and Light due to his rumor-fueled vengeance on Rand. By CoT, I though Egs and Gawyn were prefect for each other. Now I think Egs is too good for him.
Tricia Irish
374. Tektonica
Man-O@368: ::waves::

I think you have the right of it regarding the Forsaken's mistaken ideas about the post TG world. Isydin knows!

Just one question.....to anyone.....why does the DO want to convert the Dragon to his cause if he's going to destroy creation anyway? If he destroys time, the Wheel, the Serpent, Everything, what possible difference could it mean if Rand was light-side or dark-side? It would all be moot. Gone. Over. Kaput. Ego?

Windrose@372: LOL. Indeed. Gawyn's actions may be "explainable", but they are consistently, ummmm, bad. He jumps to conclusions, has a bit of a hot head, and really hasn't helped out much in the whole series. Younglings?
Ug. Just a strange guy. *shrug*

Edit to add: Seamus@373: What you said!
Mari Davis
375. sheiglagh
Re: Gawyn

When Gawyn was first introduced on TEOTW, I thought of him as a foil to Elayne. In fact, the three royals – Elayne, Gawyn and Galad were foils to each other; that was my point of view.

Of course successive books (and now that we are already on TGS), Gawyn and Galad had separated themselves so far from Elayne that being a foil to each other had vanished. Perhaps, RJ had planned these three characters that way in the beginning but as the story developed, things changed. We will never find out if that was the case but here is my .02 cents worth.

Gawyn is real, like what Egwene said about him in several books already. And that actually reaches outside of WoT, which is HERE in our world.

As annoying and as flawed as Gawyn is as a character, he can actually live in our world and we will not even recognize him as a character in a book. All his faults and all his strengths, we all have.

Because truly, who can be as single minded as Galad who will always do the right thing? Or someone like Elayne willing to share the man she loves with two other women, especially since she has everything – rich, beautiful and powerful.

Elayne and Galad can only live in books, i.e. unless the tabloids have really made a mess of my way of thinking due to Brangelina and Brannifer.

But Gawyn can be the guy who lives in our street, or a member of the varsity team, even a professional athlete, or even someone that a girl dates. Gawyn is annoying, mule-headed and has beliefs that are truly frustrating. And he won’t listen to anyone except himself and what he believes in. How many people do we know in real life who is like Gawyn? And how many Elaynes and how many Galads do we know?

Do I like Gawyn? Yes, I do because he is the one character that reminds me that RJ built a world that is so rich that we can get lost in it and Gawyn is my anchor to our world, with all its imperfections but I still love being here.

If in the next two books, Gawyn dies, I will feel sad but I will not see it as a great loss, though quite frankly, I do not believe that Gawyn had earned the right to sacrifice his life for a cause.

Interestingly enough, if Elayne and Galad die, they have earned that right. They believe in their cause and their willingness to die for it makes them prime candidates. Their deaths will break my heart.
Eric Neal
376. ewneal
Tektonica@374

My guess would be that the Dragon is the one who can prevent him from accomplishing his goal so if he is turned to the dark then the chaos meter would go off the scale and no one would be able to stop him.

This brings to mind some of the things that Ishy told Rand when he was in his Balzamon mode in the earlier books. He states more than once that the Dragon has served him in the past. If that IS true, which it very well may not be, but if it is true I wonder during those ages if Ishy was the one to oppose the Dark One... Like two sides of a coin, always in opposition to one another???

Perhaps the link that Rand and Mordin formed allow them become as one and to work in concert with one another. And that is how the Dark One's prison is finally sealed again... or he is released and everything goes poof?
Gunvor Andersson
377. markga
Will there ever be democracy in WOT?

When reading high fantasy I expect monarchy or oligarchy – nothing strange about that - fairytales are full of farmboys marrying princesses. It’s not realistic, but it appeals to our feelings. WOT is like most other books in this genre, Seanchan is the worst example of an autocracy of course. What I cannot remember reading anywhere else though are the hilarious episodes when Perrin tries to stop his old friends and neighbours from calling him lord. The Two Rivers change from a reasonably democratic society to an absolute monarchy, and everybody except Perrin seem to think this is a good thing.

Did Robert Jordan write this to make a point, do you think? Will there be a change back? What about the other lands – will there be changes there?
Eric Neal
378. ewneal
sheiglagh@375

Great post... I think the only thing that Gawyn would die for is an individual, namely Egwene, or perhaps much less likely, Elayne. His choice of making this sacrifice will not be to serve any great cause but will be made because he sees his life as being worth less than that of someone he loves. The only help to a cause, good or evil, he may provide will be inadvertent at best.
LewsTherin
379. martianblues
There has been speculation about what Rand's 3rd question/answer was in Finnland, but what about Moiraine's? I can't recall any mention of her questions/answers (please inform if I'm mistaken) except something to do with sending Thom with Elayne and Nyn to Tanchico. Perhaps her answers will become important after the ToG rescue?
Mari Davis
380. sheiglagh

ewneal @378 - thanks. :-)



markga @ 377 - Will there ever be democracy in WOT?
I believe there is a democracy in WoT, specifically in Andor, though there is monarchy. Edmond's Field has a Mayor which I presume is an elective office though I don't know wheter it is a direct vote or the mayor is chosen by the Women's Circle and Village Elders (men)
I don't know how someone becomes a member of the Women's Circle and Village Elders either.
Baerlon, which is a bigger town has a governor, so I am assuming that Baerlon is the capital of an area or district which is equivalent to our state or province. I see Randland as more of continental Europe wherein countries are smaller in land area compared to the U.S.
That Andor is a monarchy ruled by a Queen makes me think of England though from the looks of it, Morgase has relatively more power than our real life Queen Elizabeth II since the Queen of Andor can raise and army and declare war on her own without asking the Parliament.
As for Perrin becoming a "Lord" it is a title alright but now not the way we think of "Lord" as a blue blood. Perrin became a leader right before the Edmond Fielder's eyes. They can't just call him Perrin, so they started calling him "Lord" as a sign of recognition of his leadership.
The people cannot call him Mayor or General or President (I don't think the word exist in WoT). So they call him Lord.

Roger Powell
381. forkroot
Tektonica@374.

Just one question.....to anyone.....why does the DO want to convert the Dragon to his cause if he's going to destroy creation anyway? If he destroys time, the Wheel, the Serpent, Everything, what possible difference could it mean if Rand was light-side or dark-side? It would all be moot. Gone. Over. Kaput. Ego?

Perhaps it's because the DO actually can't destroy creation, he needs to convince the light's champion to do it. (Refer to: Covenenant, Thomas and the "Arch of Time")
In point of fact, I think the DO was very close to winning at the end of TGS until Rand wisely destroyed the male Choedan Kal.
Heidi Byrd
382. sweetlilflower
For what its worth, I agree with forkroot that the DO needs the Dragon to help him break the wheel. If the DO could do it on his own, it would have been done by now.

BTW, I like our new text boxes. I almost want to quote some stuff just to use the underline function.

Towers of Midnight will be an awesome book.

:)
Ron Garrison
383. Man-0-Manetheran
Tek(374): I think "ego" is a satisfactory explanation. And ewneal's(376) is better. Forkroot(381) makes a good point. Right now the DO is imprisoned, so converting the Dragon to his cause assures his victory.sheiglagh(375):


"But Gawyn can be the guy who lives in our street, or a member of the varsity team, even a professional athlete, or even someone that a girl dates. Gawyn is annoying, mule-headed and has beliefs that are truly frustrating. And he won’t listen to anyone except himself and what he believes in. How many people do we know in real life who is like Gawyn?"



And how many have we elected to political office?
Jonathan Levy
384. JonathanLevy
Isilel@362

But aren't Gaul and his twosome being groomed for this role? According to the prophecy, there won't be all that many Aiel left, too: "remnant of the remnant will he save".

I like that idea very much! In fact, it suggests a biblical parallel with Jacob the patriarch. Jacob loved one of a pair of sisters (Rachel), wooed and labored for her, but through a bit of trickery found himself working twice as long and also getting the one he didn't want (Leah).

Sounds a bit like Bain and Chiad, no?
Birgit
385. birgit
Edmond's Field has a Mayor which I presume is an elective office though I don't know wheter it is a direct vote or the mayor is chosen by the Women's Circle and Village Elders (men)
In Ny's Accepted test there is a description of an election for mayor in the Two Rivers: Men put names in an urn. The Women's Circle is probably elected by women.
T C
386. Freelancer
martianblues@379
I don't believe Moiraine used one of her questions to decide about sending Thom to Tanchico with Nynaeve and Elayne. She already knew that he and she had a future together before visiting the Aelfinn, whether from a Min viewing (likely) or her own Accepted test. With that surety in hand, it's a no-brainer for her to send him, knowing he would survive, and therefore very likely the girls as well. Although, let us not forget that the safety of the girls was not her first priority, but getting Thom away from Rand. Thom's advice and influence, as well as his strong aversion to Aes Sedai, was making Rand more and more independent of Moiraine's "guidance", and she was tired of it. Also, she had specifically cautioned the girls when they suggested asking whether to go to the Tower or Tanchico (it was the chapter title, after all), because in seeking the Black Ajah, questions would touch on the Shadow, with possible dire results in the Tower of Ghenjei.

Regarding the forms of government in WoT: Emond's Field is not a democracy. There are four segments of governance: The Mayor, the Village Council, the Women's Circle, and the Wisdom. The Mayor is elected by the men. The Council seems as if those already among them decide when someone else deserves membership, so some form of acclamation. The Women's Circle is simply all of the married women. The Wisdom is chosen by the Women's Circle, or perhaps a more appropriate word would be approved by them. This seems at first to be a miserable hash where each segment resists the others, and nothing ever gets accomplished. In reality, this is a very good thing. Beneath this veneer of government is a mostly cooperative society of self-reliant individuals who have a clue what is required of them for their village and district to survive and thrive. Any larger issues will be stalled by the natural disagreements between Council and Circle unless the inherent value or need of the issue is clearly beneficial, producing general agreement. So they can fuss and bother all they want about getting in each other's business, while the daily lives and work of the people is unaffected. Dare to dream of such days returning to our own land...
Jay Dauro
387. J.Dauro
Freelancer  
The Women's Circle is simply all of the married women.  

Have you got a reference for this? I have wondered, but did not ever remember seeing a description of how the Women's Circle was formed.
Birgit
388. birgit
The Women's Circle is simply all of the married women.

I thought it was the female equivalent to the male Village Council. The men have the Council led by the Mayor, the women have the Circle led by the Wisdom.
LewsTherin
389. Saidar'edIt
Re: Gawyn

Does anyone else suspect that Gawyn was under Compulsion? In the prologue of TSR, a novice named Sahra escorts Min to the Amyrlin. In chapter 17, Sahra is doing work on a farm when she's accosted by a hooded woman who asks her who Min spoke to in the Tower. After she names Gawyn, Sahra is killed.

The hooded woman is Mesaana or a Black sister. So she could have decided to Compel Gawyn to be sure he would be on the wrong side of the Tower coup and keep him away from Rand's allies. His behavior during the coup and later resembles behavior of other characters we know have been Compelled, like Morgase. Only a very strong emotion or belief can resist a Compulsion or break it, and in Gawyn's case it's his his infatuation with Egwene, something that the woman who put the Compulsion on him never would have suspected.

This can't explain his hatred of Rand. But it would explain why he stayed loyal to Elaida's Tower for so long when there was no good reason -- until overhearing news about Egwene snapped him out of it.

Of course, we'll never know whether or not it happened, unless Mesaana gloats about it to Egwene or whatever.
Barry T
390. blindillusion
Comment laced with ONE spoiler. Read at own risk. *blinking red lights*


Predicition:

The one who creeps through the Blight, the one who has left humanity behind, will be none other than....

Fain.

...Bugshit crazy...it is a coming. =)

Brings up an interesting question...where will those of us who will be buying the Prologue be able to go gather to discuss Spoiler-esq topics?
Henry Loose
391. schrodinger
The prologue will be available sept. 21 as an ebook. Here's a little snippet from the Tor summary: IF YOU DON'T EVEN REMOTELY LIKE SPOILERS, LOOK AWAY!








In the prologue, titled “Distinctions,” Lan Mandragoran rides on toward death; Perrin Aybara, Lord Goldeneyes, has a disturbing dream; Galad
leads the Whitecloaks into harm’s way; one who has left humanity behind
creeps through the Blight; and the Blight border faces invasion.


First, Yay! Lan! Second, boo! Perrin (still lame as usual). I wonder what harm is Galad leading the Whitecloaks into? Perrin? And finally, super-mega-boo for Fain (I haven't missed him one bit). I'm going to assume that the blight border thing will be from Ituralde's perspective.
john massey
392. subwoofer
I suspect Gawyn has suffered heavy blows to the head resulting ing his current condition. The man is doing stuff far below what is required of the First Prince yadda yadda yadda. When I was doing stunts on a snowmobile I thwacked my head fairly convincingly and for the next week I had the intellectual capacity of a six year old. Gawyn seems to be muddling through with the same symptoms. I dunno, maybe until he sees a doctor, we should all be grading him on a curve.

Woof™.
Tricia Irish
393. Tektonica
Blind: Why do you think it's Fain in the Blight creeping around? Why not Slayer/Isam? It's kind of his territory, after all, and he's certainly not human anymore? Thoughts? It could have something to do with Perrin's "disturbing" dream.
a a-p
394. lostinshadow
Huh yeah I immediately thought it was Slayer/Isam as well.
Daniel Hanley
395. dmhman749
Why would Slayer need to creep through the blight? first, he can jump around through T'A'R' to wherever he wants to end up, and second, the shadowspawn would obey him, so there is no reason for him to 'creep'. I agree that this will be Fain. Besides...we are pretty sure that Fain is going to have a VERY big role in TG. After all, RJ said in one of his quotes that nothing like Fain had ever happened in any of the turnings of the wheel before. I can't imagine that he wouldn't be of great significance in TG(though probably mostly in A Memory of Light, rather than ToM, but you need to continue setting that up).

Also, Slayer and Perrin are likely to have further run-ins in the wolf dream anyway(and possibly in randland too) in ToM, so I doubt they would waste much time describing him creeping around in the blight even if that was what he was doing at the beginning of the book for some random reason. Unless he is spying on a Forsaken conversation, which I could see. I still strongly lean towards Fain for this though.

Anyway, I agree with those above on Gawyn. There are plenty of annoying characters, but Gawyn is in a class of his own given the sheer randomness and irrationality of his actions. And he is so sure he is right in what he does, and so unwilling to listen to even the possibility he is wrong, its sickening(not that Galad, and others, doesn't do the same thing, but at least they are seeking a greater goal, which is admirable. I don't even know what Gawyn thinks he is accomplishing with his actions...he hurts those he claims he wants to help as much as everyone else).

His stupidity and incompetence just makes it difficult to even hope he will turn around. At least when other chars screw up and cause harm to others when they think they know best its generally used as a teaching moment, letting them grow as a character, but we have seen none of this from Gawyn. And I don't want to read through this process on the last two books, so i hope they just kill him off.

And even if he had compulsion used on him(possible, but unlikely in my mind) to side with the Tower in the break, his attitude towards Rand indicates that this sort of thing fits with his actual personality. He believes a single rumor, for no particular reason, casting aside that he has been told Elayne loves Rand, and plenty of other indications that maybe Rand didn't kill his mother. And even more importantly, he KNOWS Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and the world dies if he dies, but Gawyn STILL wants to kill him based on some rumor? He does that, and he is responsible for the deaths of his sister, the woman he loves, and everyone else who serves the light. And he doesn't seem to even consider that. He just blindly wants revenge, without even thinking about the consequences, or even questioning the minimal evidence pointing towards Rand anyway. That seems to fit very well with fighting for Elaida just because he has a similar irational hatred of Siuan

Plus, his death could actually help along the plot. Im hoping he tries to kill rand, and rand or his ashaman/maidins/one of his other followers are forced to kill him, and thats what pisses off the Amyrlin so much. Kills two birds with one stone.

By the way, I don't particularly like Galad either. I respect him, i guess, but hes still annoying. As is Elayne. Morgase is the only person in that family who doesn't annoy me.
Barry T
396. blindillusion
Why Fain and not Slayer? Well, one could argue that Slayer has never been saddled with the burden of humanity. Fain, on the other hand, was once a man with no other trapping than greed. He has since sloughed off pretty much any claim to humanity.

And as the above said, Slayer had no need to “creep” anywhere. He has T'A'R at his back. Fain, on the other hand, is the renegade. I'd imagine he's up there seeking Shadowspawn to subjugate to his Will.
Mari Davis
397. sheiglagh
Prediction: Gawyn will kill Rand
This is not my prediction but a theory by TEREZ at Theoryland and after reading it, I finally realized what is the purpose of Gawyn in the storyline.
http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=127&theo=2701

Up to TGS he is just the brother of Elayne and Egwene's love interest. Now, if he is the friend of the light who will kill Rand according to either prophecy or foretelling (am unusure which is which), then Gawyn Trakand has an important role to fulfill and we will hate him all over again. :-(
Henry Loose
398. schrodinger
I think Gawyn will hold to his promise that he made Egwene way back in Lord of Chaos. He will not harm Rand without direct proof of Morgase's murder. (but, as he points out, he will not stop harm befalling Rand).
Daniel Hanley
399. dmhman749
First, I read through that whole prediction, and its some pretty interesting stuff, if very tenuous in some of the links made. Still, its possible, i admit, and would tie up some of the loose ends. A few of the things he is tying into that prediction are kind of a stretch though. It seems very possible that he might kill Rand even if Mat's medallion isn't involved at all. The following quote might very well be foreshadowing to this:

"Rand released Min and they both spun, Rand reaching for his sword--a useless gesture, now. The loss of his hand, though it wasn't his primary sword hand, would leave him vulnerable if he were ever to face a skilled oponent. Even with saidin to provide a far more potent weapon, his first instinct was for the sword. He'd have tochange that. It might get him killed someday." TGS Tears from Steel

And, several chapters later, we see Gawyn beating two warders very rapidly, so we know he can strike fast and hard. Maybe fast and hard enough to take Rand if Rand looses a moment reaching for his sword, instead of just using Saidin. Plus the additional hesitation I can see Rand having for not wanting to kill Ealyne's brother.

But to Schrodinger @ 398, while he did make that promise, yes, i could easily see him either violating it the heat of the moment because hes a moron. Or, I could see him easily accepting something as 'proof' which is either manufactured by someone, or just more of the same weak evidence which Gawyn has accepted as reason to believe Rand killed Morgase so far.
Henry Loose
400. schrodinger
Unfortunately, I could see that happening as well. He just doesn't have a good track record when it comes to doing the right thing (especially when Rand is involved). Its actually kind of funny how Elayne despises Galad for always doing the right thing, yet Gawyn always seems to do the wrong thing and he's a-ok in her book. I actually think that Galad and Gawyn have similar goals, they both want to do what is right. Galad is just better at determining what the right thing to do is.
LewsTherin
401. me1234
I am not sure if everyone is reading the same books as I am, but I for one can appreciate Gawyn. If you reread COT, you will see that Gawyn after the wells incident is stuck hiding in a small village that supplies cheese to TV. Here he acknowledges where Elayne is located and is trying to find a way to get there. He knows there are two massive armies between him and his sister and since he is known to side with TV he can't risk his 300 men to reach her. It would be suicide. I really think you guys give him a raw deal. As far as killing rand, you have to remember there is no TV or radio or Internet for him to get news. It is winter and news travels very slow. There are very few that know Rand didnt kill his mother and there are even fewer that know she was under the influence of a Forsaken and just a handful that know she is even still alive.
Reread TGS and I think your attitude of him will change. He simply doesn't know what to do and is blinded by his love for Egwene and his loyalty for his sister.
Give the guy a break. Of all the characters I think he is the most real.
Daniel Hanley
402. dmhman749
He may be the most 'real' in that he is willing to listen to gossip over those he claims he loves and allows his anger to lead him to a series of decisions which range from bad to disastrous. I know people like that in the real world, sure. And they annoy me here too. The fact that we expect better than that from our supposed 'heroes' in epic fantasy just makes it more annoying.

It would be one thing if he was actually presented as someone who is supposted to be neutral or even opposed to the dragon reborn. There are plenty of those, and they don't annoy me. But Gawyn is supposted to be a good guy. He tries real hard. He is just so incompetant at being a good guy that he causes as much or more problems than many of the flat out evil people. Flaws, we can accept in our heroes. But incompetance? Just kill him off, please.

As for why he shouldn't be so sure that Rand killed his mother...sure thats the rumor in the streets, but someone very close to Rand, who he claims he trusts says she is sure he didn't do it, even if she wasn't actually there, and he prefers to trust random people who have never met rand who were ALSO not there, and are logically, probably just afraid of any male channie. But he instantly leaps to the conclusion that these people are right, and completely ignores what everyone he knows who has actually even met Rand has to say about the whole thing

He even knows Elayne loves him...does he really think that she is stupid enough to love someone who murdered her mother?

Plus the whole fact that he seems fine with the idea of murdering the only person who can save the world from the dark one.

I don't question his love for Elayne or his desire to try and help. Its just that every time he tries to help, his decisions are twisted by illogical personal vindettas and a complete unwillingness to trust anyone he cares about, so he makes things much worse. Suicide would probably be a victory for the Light.

If he does ever contribute to the Light's victories, it will be completely accidental, and probably the opposite of what he was intending to do(like killing Rand, if that should be how that happens).
Paul Long
403. Caveatar
TSR CH:58 Big Unnoticed ThingGuess

"Vaguely Rand was aware of a great, half-buried statue
in far-off Cairhien, of the huge crystal sphere in its hand,
glowing like the sun, pulsing with the One Power. And the Power in him surged up like all the seas of the world in storm. With this surely he could do anything; surely he could even have Healed that dead child. The taint swelled as much, curling ’round every particle of him, seeping into every crevice, into his soul. He wanted to howl; he wanted to explode.
Yet he only held half what that sa’angreal could deliver; the other half filled Asmodean."

Asmo and Rand both use the same access greal at the same time while fighting over the Choedan Kal link/statue.
Callandor with no buffer maybe could be used by three (or more) MEN all touching it.
Cadsuane is probably mistaken as usual about linking with two women although a link by each of the three males to one other woman at the same time might be possible?.
They could raise unholy hell at Shayol Ghul especially if the three are Rand, Logain and Damer Flynn.
Or Rand/Nynaeve, Logain and his bonded AesSedai, and Damer with his bonded healer.
I would like to see it happen.
I also think that the Sword that is NOT a Sword is a SHIELD and it parts/cuts balefire. Might do the same with the TP.
LewsTherin
404. Paulw
As far as killing rand, you have to remember there is no TV or radio or Internet for him to get news. It is winter and news travels very slow. There are very few that know Rand didnt kill his mother...

One of whom is Egwene. You know, the one he was willing to "betray anything" for. She told him to his face Rand didn't kill Morgase. Talking about how there's no radio or TV or internet is just avoiding the depths of how stupid he's been behaving (I don't think the character can be saved by anything short of having been subject to Compulsion, really -- he's been too much of a walking contradiction for several books).

Reread TGS and I think your attitude of him will change.

You might want to reread TGS, specifically the scenes with Gareth and Gawyn. Gareth tore him a new one for making no attempt to make his way to Andor to protect Gawyn, and Gawyn made no excuse for his actions. Please note that he was willing to desert them on a whim for a piece of tail, but spent at months at least not deserting to actually perform his duty to Elayne. Really, TGS doesn't demonstrate what you seem to think it does when it comes to Gawyn's goodness and character.
Daniel Hanley
405. dmhman749
They were both pulling through the Sa'Angreal at the same time, yes, but they were not linked. Two people can pull through one at the same time, but that just splits how much it boosts how much of the power you can use (as if you each had an angreal half as powerful). If three men pulled through Callandor at the same time, all three would have no buffer(and would just split the benefit of the sa'angreal between them). What fixes that problem is not that there are multiple people pulling through Callendor at the same time, but that they are linked. Three men cannot link with eachother.

I suppose Cadsuane might be wrong about the requirements of the link, and it might work with other than 2 women and 1 man, but there is no reason to think she is. She is the only aes sedai who knows anything about the flaw so far(and it is clearly flawed).

I suppose three seperate circles could form, all with women buffering then men who are pulling greater amounts of Saidin through the sa'angreal, though my guess is that each would require two women in their circle to buffer them, as we still have absolutely no evidence that that you don't need two like she said. And if they did that, it would just decrease the extra power Rand can pull through it, so i don't see the point.

Certainly it can't be the big unnoticed thing as it has been stated that that thing will make sense based purely on the information we have at this point, and given that your idea requires that the only information we have about the flaw be completely wrong with absolutely no evidence anywhere that it is. Therefore it cannot make sense based only on the information we have.

As for it being a shield, not a sword, it is made out of Cuendillar, which is why balefire was blocked by it. And we have already seen that the TP can apparently break cuendillar(the sad bracelets), so I wouldn't count on it.

But it can at least block the one power, so thats something. Though now that the aes sedai can make cuendillar anyway, they might as well make a full set of armor for Rand out of the stuff.

Interesting idea on the sword that is not a sword though. I have always assumed it was called that because it is shaped like a sword, but its true use is as a sa'angreal. Would be interesting if there is some other use entirely for it.
LewsTherin
406. Paulw
I feel like I missed something significant. Now that Saidin is cleansed, why is there a need for a buffer when using Callandor? It cannot magnify a nonexistent taint.
Joshua Leonard
407. j0shle0
Paulw @ 406

I totally agree! Read what I said @331 and respond, so I can respond back! I've been waiting days for someone to point this out!
Mikey Bennett
408. EvilMonkey
@406

The women also serve as a buffer to prevent wildness in the power and overdrawing. A male channeller using Callandor unaided begins to have a tenuous grip on sanity and it is possible for him to draw too much of the power and burn himself out. Inexperienced Rand tried to bring a dead girl back to life; a much more experienced Rand broke both the Seanchan's and his own army.
Daniel Hanley
409. dmhman749
Paulw @ 406 There is a quote about that somewhere in TGS. The lack of a buffer isn't just a problem for magnifying the taint. In fact, the original reason for buffers on Sa'angreal had nothing to do with the taint, since they were all(as far as we know) created before the taint existed. Both Callandor and the Choeden Kal were, anyway. The purpose of the buffer was to prevent overchanneling. Since a Sa'angreal increases your ability to channel so much, it is apparently quite easy to overchannel with them normally. The buffer prevents overchanneling. The fact that the lack of the buffer magnifies the taint is apparently just a side effect.

Anyway, without the buffer, the fact that Rand didn't burn himself out with prior uses of Callandor basically comes down to the fact that he was lucky.

Of course, the lack of a buffer also means that Rand (or someone) could theoretically overchannel a massive amount of the power for the brief moment before it burns them to ash, while a buffer would prevent this. Think the creation of dragonmount times a thousand. So maybe that will end up being important.
Henry Loose
410. schrodinger
the buffer is also in place to keep one from drawing too much saidin and killing one's self (plus those around you). Other sa'angreal and angreal have this, but callandor doesn't. Also, the madness that already occured due to the taint would probably be magnified.

edit: what dmhman749 said ^
Mari Davis
411. sheiglagh
Re: Callandor and Rand

I am unsure if this was at TGS or KoD, but Lews Therin told Rand that he and the 100 companions "failed" because he had to touch the DO to "fix" his prison. (don't know if he use the word fix). And, that is the reason why the DO was able to strike back causing the taint in saidin.

There were no women in that strike against the DO, only men.

If we read between the lines, they need both saidin and saidar to completely seal the bore. And it makes sense since the symbol of AS is based on the real life Yin and Yang which are two parts of a whole. Without the other, it will be incomplete. I will not be surprised if later Harriet or Brandon reveal that RJ was inspired by Yin & Yang for that symbol and when he thought of the male and female version of the One Power.
Theresa Gray
412. Terez27
RJ said that if saidar had been used at the Strike, it would have been tainted as well.
Theresa Gray
413. Terez27
Also, for the person who said my connections were 'tenuous' regarding Gawyn killing Rand...I wrote that theory as soon as the idea came to my brain, and posted it within a few days. I've found a thousand things since then to back it up, like the fact that Gawain's power supposedly waxed and waned with the rising and setting of the sun, making him most powerful at noon. I just found some tidbits on Gawain and Mordred yesterday, and posted them on Theoryland. It's almost as if they were originally the same character...
Daniel Hanley
414. dmhman749
I wasn't trying to criticize the theory. It hangs together, and is certainly a valid theory. And it would be an interesting way to do things, which would fulfill a fair bit of the outstanding prophesies. I was just pointing out that a lot of it relies on a series of very specific events falling into place, each of which doesn't make sense if all of the prior ones don't happen almost exactly as you described.

Of course, its possible that it they will. You didn't make any huge unlikely leaps of logic that a lot of people like to make in some of the more detailed theories, but its been pretty hard to predict in more than a very general way what RJ has written in the past, so it seems a little unlikely that someone could predict all of those events falling into place with that precision. And if even one of them was off, practically the whole thing collapses.

So I was just pointing out that it was also very possible that your basic theory (Gawyn killing Rand) might well come to pass even if the specific events you described don't happen (almost all of which are related to what is needed for Gawyn to get Mat's medallion). And that still fulfills a lot of the links between legend and Gawyn. Though if it does come to pass like you predicted, I will be deeply impressed.
Paul Long
416. Caveatar
@405. dmhman749 shield, not a sword, it is made out of Cuendillar, which is why balefire was blocked by it. And we have already seen that the TP can apparently break cuendillar(the sad bracelets), so I wouldn't count on it.
"That blade, APPARENTLY GLASS, would cut as well as the finest steel, yet Callandor truly was not a sword, but instead a remnant of the Age of Legends, a sa'angreal. TSR: 2, 84, Whirlpools in the Pattern
"A CRYSTAL sword with a curved blade, it is the only
sa'angreal known to be made in the form of a weapon." RJWoT: 4, 44, The Fall into Shadow
It "... seemed made of glass, or perhaps crystal, blade and
hilt and crossguard, catching such light as there was and
shattering it into a thousand glitters and flashes."

I didn't realise it was Cuendillar. From these references it appears to be something else. However I got them from online lookups. Probably a mistake somewhere.
Daniel Hanley
417. dmhman749
Hmm...It may not actually say anywhere specifically that it is Cuendillar. I'm not sure. I have always assumed it was, since it acts exactly like cuendillar, and we have seen cuendillar look like several different substances(sad bracelets are again a good example, since i believe they appear to be a black metal. Which is nothing like the regular Cuendillar looks like). It has also been indicated several places that even in the age of legends, cuendillar was the only substance they could make that was immune to balefire. Though there have been plenty of examples of times when the modern aes sedai have been very wrong about what was possible back in the age of legends, so it is possible that Callandor is something else entirely.

Though like i said earlier, since there is no indication that this is the case in any of the books, it can't be the big unnoticed thing. It also simply seems much more likely that it is just possible to create Cuendillar so that it looks different than the other Cuendillar we have seen so far than that there is some entirely unknown substance or process of creating an item that we have never heard referenced anywhere in 12 books, but which has almost the exact same effect as Cuendillar. I'm not discounting it, I'm just saying it seems unlikely.
Theresa Gray
418. Terez27
Ah yes, the medallion. People love to harp on that, and I'm sure that if that bit were to not be correct, that everyone would say I was wrong, and completely overlook the fact that I predicted Gawyn would kill Rand. :D

The bit about the medallion is part symbolism and part logic. There are several points in favor of that theory:

1. Everyone expects that Alivia will do something pre-meditated to help Rand die. And true, she could balefire him at his request to save his soul from the Shadow, but there is nothing in particular about Alivia that would make her more suited for the task than anyone else. Aside from Min's 'Alivia will help you die' viewing, all of the foreshadowing and parallels point to Moiraine for that role. RJ likes to do what we don't expect, and Alivia is a perfect red herring to draw attention away from Moiraine, just like Alviarin was a perfect red herring to draw attention away from Verin.

2. There are very few things that do have thematic significance for Alivia's character. Battling the Seanchan, or any other aggressor for that matter, is something that would fit her character. She hardly knows how to do anything besides destroy stuff. Wearing ter'angreal into battle is another thing that fits her character.

3. Mat is not set up to be a very direct Judas parallel - I'm guessing that will be Gawyn, obviously - but he does have a long string of accidental betrayals under his belt, and there is foreshadowing of him leaving the medallion with Elayne. There is a lot of symbolism that points to a Judas parallel as well, though Mat would never willingly betray Rand. He seems to have willingly married the enemy, but that was forced on him as well (and will surely work out for the best in the end).

4. Someone who read my theory emailed Brandon and requested that Gawyn die and that Egwene hook up with Galad instead. That started an epic discussion on his Facebook, and he threw in a comment about Gawain and the Green Knight. Here is the quote:


Brandon on Facebook - 22 June 2010
Some interesting reading if you're thinking/talking about Gawyn as a character can be found here:

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from the comments:

One other way to think of it is thus: The Wheel will keep on turning, and the Age that we live in (or like unto it) will someday arrive. Legends from what is happening in these books will have survived, and become the Arthur legends during our day. Or, in other cases, stories of othercharacters have survived in other mythologies. (Look up the Slavic god Perun some time).

Perrin is not a god, nor is Gawyn the knight of that story I linked. But perhaps someone who lived long ago, in another Age, gave birth to rumors about a young nobleman who made a mistake, and bore the weight of that sin for the rest of his days. And that gave birth to stories, which inturn inspired a poet to write a tale.


Perhaps the most interesting thing about the Green Knight story is the girdle that is supposed to protect Gawain from harm.

Also interesting is that the Lady of the Lake gives a similar amulet to Perceval:


Then the lady said: "Wait a little, I have something for thee." Therewith she took from her neck a small golden amulet pendant from a silken cord very fine and thin. And she said: "Wear this for it will protect thee from all evil enchantments." Therewith saying, she hung the amulet about the neck of Sir Percival, and Sir Percival gave her thanks beyond measure for it.


Perceval is often connected with Gawain in the earliest Arthur stories.
Paul Long
419. Caveatar
@417
I certainly failed to state my thoughts properly about the BUT. I should have separated the two. I will try again.

More than one person can access the same *angreal at the same time. Except for the incident with Rand and Asmo and the CK keys I don't recall ever seeing an incident where more than one person used an *angreal without being linked.
---------------------------------------
On a separate note:
I think the Unseen Eyes watching people in Telaranrhiod should be RJ/BWS or WE the READERS because certainly all of us are watching what those people do through RJ's eyes down to their 'smallclothes'. In fact to the point of posting on the net about what we see there. :D :D
--------------------------

Totally unrelated thought with the critique/criticism of the cover art. Perhaps in the contract with the artist there was a typo and the artist was to produce 'covert' art. Since a law or legal contract means what it says rather than what the writers thought they wanted it to mean then the artist attempted to produce 'covert/hidden' art.
From the responses it is evident that many have difficulty seeing any art in the covers giving an indication that for them it is certainly covert/hidden/undercover/whatever. :D :D
Okay so I have been rereading too much. 'twitch'
Henry Loose
421. schrodinger
The Donut theory (okay okay, its more of a ball, well, sphere, and more technically speaking its a dyson sphere... totaly unrelated to that pretentious "inventor"). A Dyson Sphere
is a spherical object in space, approximately 1 AU (astronomical unit... the distance from earth to the sun) away from a star. It is a mega structure designed to hold an enormous population as well as collect the energy of the star. I'm thinking that The Pattern is sort of like a dyson sphere, and the DO is the star. In this particular turning, the inhabitants of the 'sphere' devised a method to directly tap into the energies of the 'star', unfortunately, in doing so, they unleashed a 'solar flare' that allowed the 'star' to touch the 'sphere'. Their eventual solution to the problem was to erect a barrier (the seal) where the 'star' touched. But the 'star' continued to flare, and eventually melted the barrier. The solution to the problem is a two part seal. One on the side of the 'sphere' and one on the side of the 'star'. I'm guessing only the 'star's' own energy can create a seal on the 'star', so Rand will have to use the True Power.
Joel Salomon
422. jcsalomon
Beren@60: Suffa will be a good damane, but she, among the leashed Aes Sedai, knows Traveling. So we will see her again, or at least hear about her. Oy.

Re. Perrin & Galad: There’s a ta’veren Swirly Colors™ viewing by Rand in TGS that explicitly shows them together. So, not much of a prediction.

Predictions:
• We find out what Rand’s new/old sword is all about. And nobody among the fans will have guessed right.
• We find out what the Borderlanders are up to.
• More Fain. More Isam/Luc/Slayer. Again, oy.
•Olver has a Crowning Moment of Awsome.

Slightly kooky prediction: Mat blows the Horn of Valere within the Tower of Genji, for the “music to dazzle”. Don’t know what the fire or iron will be. (Fire may be Aludra’s fire-sticks, as some have suggested.)

Niggle re. prophecy: How can Rand “bind the nine moons” when there is no longer a Daughter of the Nine Moons?
Henry Loose
423. schrodinger
jcsalomon- The binding probably happened when she was still the Daughter of the Nine Moons. I'm thinking that the binding was when she and Mat married. Binding in a sort of indirect way (your spouse's friends become your friends... or else!). Anyway, Mat's relationship with (for)Tuon(a) will be the key to stopping the seanchan invasion.
Paul Long
424. Caveatar
Hmmmm. Tuon is the "DAUGHTER of the Nine Moons".

"bind the nine moons to serve him" sounds more like binding her mother or father. Yeah I know it is prophecy and therefore can be interpreted many ways.
Maybe the Nine Moons is the Seanchan Empire and Tuon isn't even necessary although I hope it is more like binding the Aiel and others. He hasn't cuffed or tied up or Compelled any of them so far as I know.
Daniel Goss
425. Beren
jcsalomon

Not to nitpick, but the prophecy actually makes more sense now. The prophecy didn't say "bind the daughter of the nine moons" it mentioned the nine moons specifically. When she was the Daughter of the Nine Moons, technically it wouldn't have applied. Which I suppose makes sense considering that Rand failed when he came to attempt to 'Bind the nine moons to serve' him. She wasn't there yet.
-Beren
Henry Loose
426. schrodinger
just a quick thought. its not the Emperess of the nine moons, its just the Emperess. Nine moons probably doesn't refer to
Tuon in her current form, but to either her tenure as DotNM, or The Court of the Nine Moons... the Seanchan Imperial Court (embodied by Emperess Fortuona). So the binding could still be in the making, or it already happened (with Mat).
Theresa Gray
427. Terez27
Probably won't happen until the consummation of Mat and Tuon's marriage - the two must be as one. That is traditional symbolic wording for marriage, specifically the consummation thereof. Also, 'bind' might refer to the Oath Rod.
Daniel Hanley
428. dmhman749
The nine moons is a general symbol for the imperial family. Binding the nine moons would have applied equally when she was the daughter of the nine moons(and the last survivor of her family and representative of the nine moons and the court of the nine moons in Randland), or now that she is the empress (and still the last survivor of her family and representative of the nine moons and the court of the nine moons...well, everywhere). We shall see how it comes out...might be through Mat, but I highly highly doubt that it will be through a warder bond or through the oath rod as i have heard some suggest. Because I don't think that rand would do that for the first, and I KNOW Tuon wouldn't do the second. Even if she accepts her channeling at some point(and I really can't see it within the short amount of time we have, regardless of how the signs in the books are pointing towards that possibility), she is still one of the most arrogant people on the planet(probably only the forsaken equal her). She isn't going to swear on a ter'angreal to follow Rand. Besides, my understanding is that the person taking the oath must weave the flows for the oath rod themselves(though that may just be tradition). She certainly isn't going to learn how to do very advanced channeling before TG.

Anyway...My guess is it will either be something interesting we have not come up with yet, or it will just be a simple agreement to work with Rand through TG after the shadowspawn hit her city. And possibly if Hawkwing tells her to if Mat blows the horn. Thats as much binding the nine moons to him as him binding the other nations to him as been.

To schrodinger @ 421 thats an...odd theory. There is nothing in the books that remotely suggest anything at all like that. In fact, everything which has been told us about the nature of the Dark One and the pattern so far is in direct contradiction with that theory. I mean maybe everyone in the universe of the WoT is just completely wrong about it, but...

The Dark One's prison has been explicitly stated to be outside the pattern, and the bore a hole in the pattern/reality that lets him through. So im not sure where you are getting the whole sun analogy. Until the bore was created, there was no interaction, gathering the DO's energy or otherwise. It has also been explicitly stated that the Wheel of Time runs on the True Source, not the True Power. Though again, I suppose there is the possibility that everyone in the book is absolutely wrong about everything they think they know about their universe, I just don't see the point in questioning the only information we have about the topic.
Henry Loose
429. schrodinger
what I was trying to say was that there is a mass (the DO), a void, and then the Pattern. Whether or not that void was inside or outside the pattern was irrelevant, and I figured that space would be a good analogy. Remember, in the AoL, they used to go out in things called vacuoles to do research. Those were bubbles outside the pattern that had a foot still on the pattern. (my guess is that the bore was made by extending a vacuole as far as it could go). The sun was a part of an analogy where I think that the Pattern is the DO's prision, with a buffer of vaccum in between them. The dyson sphere is only relevant in that it surrounds the sun, as I believe the Pattern surrounds the DO (although the DO is a source of energy). I'm not saying that the DO's energy is turning the wheel, nor am I saying that there was interaction before the bore. Its not the perfect analogy, but it works as a good physical representation of what I think is the relationship between the pattern and the DO.

I know that was a little convoluted, but its my opinion.
Alice Arneson
430. Wetlandernw
dmhman749 @ 428 - No, the one taking the oath need not be the one channeling into the Rod.
Birgit
431. birgit
"All you need do is have your Aes Sedai" - walking easily beside her on his long legs, he grinned suddenly, toothily, at Rhiale and Therava - "or any woman who can channel hold the rod and speak whatever promises you wish while someone channels a little Spirit into the number. The marks on the end of the rod?" he added, raising his eyebrows insultingly. "You can use it to release her, too, but that is more painful. Or so I understand."ACoS ch. 40


Sammael should know how binders work. The person who swears has to hold the rod, but any woman can do the channeling.
Kristopher Fox
432. kris_fox
I predict that it would be revealed that Shimerin is Mesana. Kinda obvious, maybe.
Daniel Hanley
433. dmhman749
To Schrodinger @ 429, Fair enough...I thought you were using the dyson sphere analogy because you were suggesting that the energy that ran the pattern/wheel was the energy of the DO, as is the case in a dyson sphere(and the point of a dyson sphere). I suppose we don't know if the pattern is 'around' the DO, or if the DO is just locked 'outside', so you could be right. It only really matters if there is some other third thing beyond the pattern that the pattern is blocking the DO off from, which is possible.

birgit @ 431: Good to know. I forgot that quote. I think the only times we have seen it used have all had the channeler taking the oaths do the weaves(I wouldn't be surprised if most Aes Sedai thought that was a requirement simply because tradition states that it should be done that way), but yes, Sammael would know better. That fact does make an oath on the oath rod for Tuon vastly more likely than I had previously believed, I admit.

To Kris_fox @ 432, how is that obvious? I can't remember anything that suggests Shemerin at all, and a lot to suggest it probably isn't her...Mostly because she runs away from the White Tower. Why would Mesaana leave her power base? Yes, she can Travel back and forth, but if that was her goal, she doesn't need to be a sister at all, she can just hang out in a random palace somewhere and travel to the White Tower when she wants something. No...she is staying in the White Tower in whoever she is hidden as so that she can gather information personally. It has been stated that she believed that the Tower faction would win over the rebels, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for her to leave the Tower to try and infiltrate the Rebels.

Most people think that she is probably Danelle, if she is one of the Aes Sedai at all. Danelle isn't personally known by many, so shes easy to replace. She played a key roll in unseating Siuan, and seemed kind of evil when doing it. Then she quickly faded into the background(where mesaana likes to be), but shes still in the Tower. Her physical description also fits(blue eyes, shes from the brown, so her wearing brownish clothes both times we have seen what clothes Mesaana was wearing fits).

I have never read any theory on why Mesaana might be Shemerin though...can you explain please?
David Jameyson
434. Aneid
Re: binding the nine moons

The premium the Seanchan place on rank and title I would be very surprised if Mat is still Prince of Ravens. He is probably now something new since Tuon is now Fortuona. Lord of Ravens … Lord of the Nine Moons? Maybe that will be covered next book. But he could have the title that would, by Tuon being Empress, bind the nine moons to Rand via Mat.
Alice Arneson
435. Wetlandernw
kris_fox @ 432, dmhman749 @433 - I'm with dmhman on this; I can find no evidence or even hint that Shemerin might be Mesaana's alter ego. Nothing in her physical or clothing descriptions matches what little we know of Mesaana, and her circumstances don't fit either.

Nope, not seeing it. I'm not hard over on the idea that it's Danelle, but I do think she's the most probable candidate.
Karen Fox
436. thepupxpert
Wet @ 435 - the only problem I have with Danelle is that she is bullied by Halima so much it is hard to believe she is a Forsaken. I'm thinking that Mesaana is still in the tower when the Senchean attack and is one of the ones captured. It doesn't appear to me that the Forsaken would team up and be in the same place together.

As I was re-reading the last four books (I'm now on TGS) I thought I had found a clue as to who Mesaana was but now I've lost it again... I'll see if I can get my thoughts together on this later.
Karen Fox
437. thepupxpert
MickeyDee@356 - I like your prediction about Taim and Logain, perhaps there is a civil war and Logain "cleanses" the BT of DFs like Egwene did the WT and becomes the BT's first "Ashalin"?
Tess Laird
438. thewindrose
thepupxpert - I believe you are thinking of Delana Mosalaine, who is a grey sitter in the Saladar camp. (She is most definitly under Halima'gars thumbs so to speak.)

Danelle is a young brown Aes Sedai who sides with the tower, and smirks at Suian when they take her away to still her and question her.

tempest™
Karen Fox
439. thepupxpert
@ 438 - yes just as I was re-reading these posts again I realized I had confused them.
Paul Long
440. Caveatar
Master of the Blades

Does anyone here have any thoughts about Mat actually becoming The Master of the Blades for the Seafolk?

Probably no place for it in the series but he did tell the "daughter of the sands" that "I am the Master of the Blades and my blades are bare."

Probably a bit much to load on to the Rogue, Son of Battles, Trickster, Gambler, Prince of the Ravens.

Any thoughts?
Cav
Jay Dauro
441. J.Dauro
dmhman749 @433I believe Therava weaves for Galina in TPOD - 11
Therava smiled thinly. "So you do. Two among us first, Sevanna. You and I." Not a whisper of defiance faded from Sevanna's face, but she nodded. Grudgingly. Only then did Therava move her foot. The light of saidar surrounded her, and a flow of Spirit touched the numerals at the end of the rod in Galina's hands. Just as was done with the Oath Rod.

  So I read that "her" as Therava.
Mari Davis
442. sheiglagh
Caveatar @ 440:

I believe that Mat was using "Master of the Blades" as a metaphor more than a title. I have not re-read that portion and I don' t know exactly where it is, but I do remember the incident.
Birgit
443. birgit
"Nynaeve and Elayne need you, or I'd leave you for the gholam to crack your bones and the Black Ajah to pick over what's left. Well, as far as you're concerned, I'm the Master of the Blades, and my blades are bare." What that meant exactly, he had no idea, except for having once heard, "When the blades are bare, even the Mistress of the Ships bows to the Master of the Blades."

ACoS ch. 39
diane heath
444. jadelollipop
@443 The phrase "What that meant exactly, he had no idea" has always worried me. I thought at one time that the Sea Folk would have a handle on Mat and cause him grief (causing grief is what they do best). His rescue of the Windfinders (and their apparent inability to wait the alloted time) led to a lot of Seafolk deaths. Not sure if there is time to pursue this "bargain" but will have to RAFO
Theresa Gray
445. Terez27
For a summary of the two POVs that were read from the prologue at DragonCon......SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS...go here.
Mari Davis
446. sheiglagh
Terez27 @445: Thanks for the link Terez. Great read. :-)
Theresa Gray
447. Terez27
Someone might be posting the recording soon. We can hope, anyway. I'll transcribe it if she does post it (Nedopak on Twitter).
Jack Diamond
448. violetdancer
Does anyone remember in what book/chapter Egwene was reunited with Bela?

I thought it was when Egwene arrived in Salidar, but I may be confusing that with the T'A'R Bela she rode there.
Cross-posted this on the re-read and Leigh's TGS spoiler thread.
Daniel Hanley
449. dmhman749
violet dancer @ 448, i believe that is correct. If i am remembering correctly, Siuan rode Bela from the Tower to Salidar, since she is such an bad rider.
LewsTherin
450. Rand Al'Todd
Poor Galad!!!! In Asunawa's hands as a Darkfriend, and awaiting rescue by Perrin Cloak-bane!!!

What a way to start a book!!!
Tim FItches
451. El Fitcho
A few comment and speculations from me on some of the predictions that have come up in this thread:

1. There seems to be a sense that Morgase could / should end up with Tam. I've always liked Tallanvor myself, so personally I hope he survives Tarmon Gaidon and Morgase chooses to stay with him. Tam can have his pickings from some of the other hot single women... Lini, Laras etc ;o)

2. Many people are expecting Lan to perish by the end. I just can't see that myself. Too much weight and resolution attached to him what with the uncrowned king, resurrection of Malkier etc. I think Thom's got more chance of kicking the bucket - after all what better way for a gleeman to be remembered than by dieing a noble and glorious death in the greatest story of all...

3. No-one (as far as I can see) has mentioned the immediate effects of Rand's channeling epic amounts of Saidin at the end of TGS. Primarily it will have attracted the attention of every channeler in Randland. Therefore I'm finding it hard to appreciate what Rand will go back to when he climbs down of Dragonmount. Surely Moridin, Taim etc won't just go 'meh' and carry on with whatever they're doing - they'll go investigate at the very least, and probably feel it's time to start all-out assault (it could be Rand's channeling is the trigger that begins Tarmon Gaidon).

And a humble but possibly belated request: any chance we can avoid - or at least flag - prologue spoilers on this thread for those of us who are forced / choosing to wait for the whole book?
Daniel Hanley
452. dmhman749
1. Possibly...both of Morgase's old guys are now taken, so its very possible. Though there isn't really any need for either of them to hook up with anyone. If it does happen, it probably won't get more than a couple paragraphs in the wrap up in the last few chapters. There isn't really time to develop another relationship like that in the story at this point.

2. Well...a great deal of weight has been attached to him raising the banner of Malkier and leading his people once again...this is happening as we speak in the book as Lan rides across the borderlanders gathering people to ride with him(or will be shortly). There is no guarantee that he will be successful. Certainly he doesn't think he will be. There would be at least as much sense of completion and finishing the circle if Lan turns out to have been right all along and dies fighting the shadow to his last breath(crippling the forces of shadow at a critical moment, of course). I'm not saying hes definately going to die, but I wouldn't be 100% sure he isn't if I were you...he is one of the more likely of the main characters to not make it.

3. Not sure there are any immediate effects. First, Rand wasnt doing anything with all that power, so it would have been a lot harder to sense than the cleansing was. Don't know how much the range to sense someone just holding the one power is expanded when there is THAT much of it, but it is completely possible that male channies couldn't sense him since he was on top of the tallest mountain on the planet. Though Moridin probably knew something happened through their link, but wouldn't know exactly what. Regardless, TG has been moments from happening for the past book or two anyway, so i doubt this is going to matter a lot in the forsaken's plans.

-This thread asked for no spoilers to be included, so people shouldn't be posting spoilers at all. I'm sure a new thread will go up to discuss the prologue when it comes out.
Bonnie Andrews
453. misfortuona
Okay, so not exactly either a prediction, or even WoT related, but this is Brandon Sanderson's latest Facebook status.
"The Way of Kings hit #7 on the NYT Bestseller list. Woot! This is my first top 10 for a non-WoT book, and is better than I expected. Wow!"
Brandon is both modest and talented. I'm loving the story BTW.

Mis-just couldn't resist
LewsTherin
454. Gbarb74
Jadelollipop - Noal being the third person was decided in book 11.
diane heath
455. jadelollipop
@454 ?? I know that Noal requested to be the 3rd man when Mat found out about the letter. My last comment on this board (#444) was in reference to the Sea Folk and the "Master of the Blades"
comment.
I know some have mentioned Valan Luca as a possible 3rd (and I like Luca but think he is headed away from Andor....into Murandy?)
LewsTherin
456. SheWolf
Hi everybody. I am sick with almost pathological anticipation for ToM to lie in my sweaty paws and have been making the wait bearable by reading this (and other) threads. What a great institution, a life saver for a newbie like myself.

I do hope that we will get to see something of Moiraine in ToM. She is my favorite character (although Egwene has grown in Awsomeness lately). I think the experience will have changed her and I hope she takes a new warder: Thom. I would like to see some romance there too, she is a classy honourable woman and could do with an experienced, cultivated man. Sigh.

I suspect that when she comes back to the real world she will be aware of some vestige of the bond to Lan and will head off to help him.

How does that sound?
Barry T
457. blindillusion
Not really a prediction, but simply something I’d love to see in ToM:

The Reunion of the Three: I’d like it to be unexpected. All three are heading towards the same location with their entourages (hopefully a small number each) when they notice each other, and without hindrance or doubt, simply continue on towards each other. Their parties fall back (even if they don’t know why) and the Three meet in that central location. And they know. They know it is time for the Endgame...that the sun truly has set upon their Age. They nod at each other and begin.

(Nothing flashy. No hijinks. No jokes. Simply a meeting of three people with a job to do…and they know.)

I want to see this through Min’s eyes, or more specifically, her Talent. I’d imagine to her, it’s going to be much like looking at the sun…or perhaps the Light….
Henry Loose
458. schrodinger
Jadelollipop- luca was indeed headed into murandy... which is on a direct line into Andor. He'll make it there anyway (I (and Mat) don't think that even the DO himself could stop Luca from trying to make a buck). He'll probably arrive in Andor just in time for the postgame show after TG.
Paul Long
459. Caveatar
Regarding Egwene and the Law of War
Now that the WT is all back together and heads have rolled, is the war over? Does the Law of War still apply? Will Egwene be able to run the tower by edict?
I doubt it. Possibly she will have to declare war on the DO or Rand or someone to keep that advantage or maybe she will not need that advantage now.
----
A prediction regarding Lan's Bond. I believe that the current bondholder will release him from the bond and that Nynaeve will NOT rebond him as before. Maybe a modified bond that gives him the extra benefits without forcing her will on him when necessary.
-----
A question for the gurus. What is the Avendesora tree? A source of Prozac or something? It seemed to give Mat a laid back feeling when he sat under it in Rhuidean.

The Shadow Rising Ch24
"Rand was staring at the tree, Mat saw. The tree. Mat found himself moving toward it as if drawn. No tree had those trefoil leaves. No tree but one; a tree of legend.
Avendesora,” Rand said softly. “The Tree of Life. It’s here.”
Under the spreading branches, Mat leaped to catch one of those leaves; his outstretched fingers fell a good pace short of the lowest. He satisfied himself with walking deeper beneath that
leafy roof and leaning back against the thick bole. After a moment he slid down to sit against it. The old stories were true. He felt . . . Contentment. Peace. Well being. Even his feet did not bother him much.
Rand sat down cross-legged nearby. “I can believe the
stories. Ghoetam, sitting beneath Avendesora for forty
years to gain wisdom. Right now, I can believe.”
Mat let his head fall back against the trunk. “I don’t know that I’d trust birds to bring me food, though. You’d have to get up sometime.” But an hour or so would not be bad. Even all day. “It doesn’t make sense anyway. What kind of food could birds bring in here? What birds?”
“Maybe Rhuidean wasn’t always like this, Mat. Maybe . . . I don’t know. Maybe Avendesora was somewhere else, then.”
“Somewhere else,” Mat murmured. “I would not mind
being somewhere else.” It feels . . . good . . . though."

Sounds like some kind of calming drug.
Any ideas from anyone?

One more for the gurus? I know Mat hides his hanging scar but where did he get the black scarf he always wears? Clint Eastwood give it to him after that one movie? :D
Theresa Gray
460. Terez27
In the next chapter, you will see that Avendesora is a chora tree. The BWB explains that they were constructs made with the Power; in the Age of Legends, the trees were in every city, and the Aiel were supposed to try to replant them elsewhere; apparently they lost all of them but one. The nation of Almoth had one at one point in the past, supposedly; that makes sense as we know the Aiel were over that way at one point during the Breaking.
Daniel Hanley
461. dmhman749
To Caveatar, I doubt that Egwene will need the Law of War, at least in the short term. She has the beginnings of a very strong position as Amyrlin. She almost by herself kicked the ass of one of the greatest direct attacks on the White Tower, exposed the Black Ajah, and re-unified the Tower in like two days...All of the ajah heads have also agreed that it is best to let her rule, rather than trying to get too directly invovled. She also got the apologies of the rebels to pacify the loyalists, was the leader of the rebels so they will still feel a sense of victory, so they should stay happy...Even the reds will probably somewhat accept her, given her selection of Silviana, who it said was very well respected by the reds. In short, at least for a while, she has the respect of pretty much everyone. Not saying she can just dictate whatever she wants, but she should be able to set herself up with a great deal of authority even without the law of war.
Though she will almost certainly re-gain it when TG starts in the very near future. I highly doubt she is going to declare war on rand though...Really, it was only another sign of Elaida's insecurity in her power that made her think it was needed.

Why a new bond? I don't think Nynaeve would ever use the part of the bond that lets you force your warder, so it doesn't really seem like it would matter. I don't see any reason why she wouldn't just be passed the bond from...myrelle(sp)...whoever has the bond currently. Assuming Lan survives, his authority as King and the wedding oaths Nynaeve took should keep the power fairly balanced in the relationship.

Yes, it is stated several times that Avendesora is the last of the Chora trees(unless there are any in Shara or something). They were created and put in every city throughout the world in the Age of Legends in order to end war and reduce violence. They have a general calming effect when you are around them.
Falcon Newxr
462. Newxr
Here is way out prediction - not only for the current book but also for the way the saga will end.

AoL = 4th Age

As we know the ages come and go and are repeated as the wheel of time turns. We are never told that AoL was outside the wheel i.e we have assumed that the current cycle of the wheel started after the breaking of the world. This not necessarily true.

We know that during AoL the Source was clean and we had both male and female AS. Well the Source is now clean and we have both males and females who can channel.

During the AoL there were many AS - well we seem to be finding females and males) everywhere who can channel.

During the AoL the AS could do a lot more with the Source. Let me see we seem to have found travelling, making and understanding TerA and A's, we have found dreamwalking, foreltelling, we can now heal stilling, we can make cu...der (sp) etc etc.

The world will be utterly decimated during this book and next. Only a few of the Aiel will survive and join with tinkers to follow the way of the leaf and start a new cycle of evolution to become the next Aiel when the 3rd age comes around again. Tar Valon will be destroyed and rebuilt by the Ogier (this will be noted in the epilogue to the last book), Seachen lands will be destroyed and the entire Hawkwing saga start again, the political landscape will change with new countries and barons (Perrin will elad Meth..n).
Birgit
463. birgit
AoL = 4th Age

The Wheel has seven spokes (= Ages). The AoL is the second Age, Rand lives at the end of the third.
Daniel Hanley
464. dmhman749
It has been specifically stated that the Age of legends was the second age, and everything between the age of legends and the present is the in the books is the third age. Thats not a prediction, thats you claiming that RJ has been lying to us in everything he has told us about how the Wheel of Time works.

There are so many problems with this...'theory', even outside of the fact that RJ told us a great deal of information which absolutely contradicts this, soi really don't want to go into all of them. How about a few.

1. the existance of the Dark One was completely forgotten in the Age of Legends.
2. We know the real life world(our earth) is one of the ages. Its certainly not anywhere in the age of legends or anywhere in the time since the breaking.
3. Manetheren, which you mentioned, was a third age kingdom (after the breaking), NOT something that existed during the age of legends.
4. None of the Age of Legends people have heard anything about anything like the third age, but they HAVE heard of things like someone called 'Tamyrlin', who according to legends rediscovered channeling at the end of the age before the age of legends. Certainly no one 'rediscovered' channeling in Rand's age.
5.Things like healing stilling, etc were explictly NOT known in the age of legends.
6. Tar Valon didn't exist in the Age of Legends.
7. The Ogier are going to leave this world through the book of translation(possibly going to another planet or one of the portal stone alternate worlds, it isn't clear), regardless, they leave this world and wait for the age of legends to return, as they have before. Because they don't exist on earth between those ages, but ARE on earth during the age of legends and the current age. So clearly many millinia pass between those two ages.

Thats not all the problems, its just all i feel like mentioning at the moment.

Basicaly, your 'threory' is just an alternate reality thing you think would be interesting, because it is in direct contradiction to how the turning of the wheel works in the Wheel of Time. Just because the third age channelers are rediscovering much of what was lost in the breaking doesn't mean that it IS the age of legends again, it just means that the 'dark ages' of the third age is ending.
LewsTherin
465. madzz
For those who think Logain will save the Black Tower...

Wrong...

Moridin will use the TP to compell all the darkfriends at the Black Tower. Then because of his state of instability and also the fact that he wants it all to end... He will have them stand in a large circle, one behind the other, and on the count of three, have each man balefire the man in front of him. For the heck of it, Moridin will also be in the circle.

As a result, the pattern will unravel around the Black Tower, and the Dark One will suffer a stroke while trying to figure out who dies and who doesn't and who if any are worth respawning anyway.

(Sorry, but I thought the comments were getting a little too serious.)
Tim FItches
466. El Fitcho
I want a Dark One POV in ToM.

'HMMMM' thought the Dark One, darkly. 'BOUT TIME I DID SOMETHING OTHER THAN LOAFING AROUND. MAYBE I'LL TURN ALL THE FORSAKEN INTO JELLY BABIES AND BITE THEIR HEADS OFF. NOT GREEN ONES THOUGH, THEY TASTE FUNNY. I'LL START WITH DEMANDRED IF I CAN FIND THE BUGGER.'

That is all.
Roger Powell
467. forkroot
Rand Al'Todd@450

Ahem. From the top of this very post:

Do NOT post actual spoilers, if you have them. Speculation only.

Methinks that precludes commenting directly on anything from *con readings and (I guess) the prologue when it's out.
John Reen
468. BarIdeas






Whoo Hoo!! A Shiny new prediction thread!!!











Whoo Hoo!! A Shiny new prediction thread!!!
wesley
469. wagman26
I believe that Samuel will be revealed to have killed Asmodeon. And that Samuel is still alive and posing as Taim. Having switched likenesses at Aridhol.
Daniel Hanley
470. dmhman749
Sammael? ugg...I have never understood that one. there is so much more evidence, motivation, etc for Graendal. Even Lanfear is much more likely, and thats only possible if the finns gave lanfear the three wishes and she used one to go and kill asmo, which seems unlikely.

And more importantly, for your second point, RJ said in one of his interviews that Sammael DID die in Aridhol, even though it happened off screen. But he was very clear that sammael was definately dead. So...taim is not him.
a a-p
471. lostinshadow
I can't believe new comments haven't been posted after reading of the chapter revealed after the great hunt.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/thegreathunt

for those who don't like Mat, it's a Mat chapter.
Wayne Wilson
472. stylusmobilus
@lostinshadow

Dunno if there are too many around who dislike Mat. I didn't because it seemed a bit too close to 'spoilerish', and there are rules about that...

I speculated on what I think will happen to Mat earlier.
Bouke de Boer
473. Bouke
lostinshadow @471: Apart from "YES! It has finally been revealed!" there isn't much to say. I can't imagine many people not reading the freebie we're being offered here, but for those that actually won't, any comments on the whole would be rather spoilery...
diane heath
474. jadelollipop
Discussion of Chapter 8 can be found at Dragonmount and Theoryland. If it is to be discussed here at Tor.com should it be a separate thread of its own or can it be discussed on the Way of Kings Holds a Secret Thread?
JD N
475. orokusaki
Man, this is a bit dated, since I'm replying to a month-old post, but...

toryx@38

I can't believe no one else hopped on your 5.5 theory.

5.5. Mat will make Olver put away Fox and Snakes and teach him D&D or some variation thereof Magic: The Gathering in order to play Archenemy at the next JordanCon.

Brandon loves Magic.
john massey
476. subwoofer
Are we allowed to talk about that chapter here? It is an "open thread"... I don't want to offend anyone so please lemme know the etiquette here folks. I am still buzzing about it! Weeee!!! New book out soon! TOR Moderators please let us know! Also gonna figure out how to clap my hands on the prolog or whatever what release for 3 buckers. I was going to hold out but my resolve has totally crumbled.

Woof™.
JD N
477. orokusaki
@subwoofer & @jadelollipop,

"predictions and theories" and "Do NOT post actual spoilers" seem to be the only rules. If we agree that theories including the new chapter are more spoilerific than not, then the discussion should be in a different thread. If not spoiler-filled, then posting here seems legal. :)
LewsTherin
478. Mat>Gholam
As of info learned in Chapter 8, Mat likely will duel his Shadowspawn friend yet again! The malicious vampiric gholam either is in Mat's tent, or decapitated and drank his servant. Either of which really SUCKS for poor Mat. Hopefully, he smacks the creature in the face with his medallion and simply ends it without losing an arm...because that would really be awkward, telling yet another queen that he was maimed by a gholam. Speaking of queens, Mat has to get Elayne to set the dragons into mass production, so Mat can move on to the Tower of Genjhei and fricking rescue Moiraine already! It's a bit overdue, and it better happen early in the book so she reaches Rand before it's late in the book. Moiraine can't travel yet, and no one with Mat can either. That petulant little bitch Aes Sedai had to tackle Lanfear. Why couldn't she just use balefire like she did with Be'lal? Balefire=No Cyndane, Moiraine lives, no tower of Ghenjei, no Mat losing an eye, and no Noal staying with the Finns for all eternity! For some one who killed two Forsaken, manipulated politics, and half-tamed the wild Lan-beast, Moiraine is one dumb chick...
LewsTherin
479. I_have_no_life
Predictions: Rand (who is now just like old not-tortured-by-everything Rand, just semi-omniscient), seeing a gaping hole in the White Tower, decides to investigate. In the tower, he disguises himself (believing the tower to still be under the dreaded Elaida administration)and requests an audience with the Amyrlin. He eavesdrops with the power to hear, to his surprise, Egwene speaking with an unknown man in the study of the Amyrlin. He walks past the guards, into the room, and removes his disguise. Both former inhabitants of the room are left speachless. Egwene speaks first, but is interrupted by Rand, who asks why Egwene is in the Amyrlin's study. He then notices the stole. The other speaker, being Mattin Stepaneos, is infuriated to find someone he believes the usurper to his throne appear to his face. Rand quiets everyone down quickly, and procedes to return the throne to Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar, reason being that the throne was stolen from him by Egwene's sociopathic predecessor, and Rand doesn't have the time to govenr Illian anyway, and requests a formal audience with Egwene at a later time. Egwene agrees, and just before Rand is about to travel with Mattin to Illian( with a note signed saying that Rand abdicated to him, and would do so publicily at a later date) Gawyn comes in to question and/or attack Rand, and generally curse at him. Rand finally breaks through Gawyns rant to explain that he knows that Morgase is alive, and that she is with his their half-brother, Galad, and of course Perrin. Gawyn, learning both of Rand's heritage and his mother's survival, faints. Egwene tells Rand to go. He takes Mattin to Illian.He then departs to speak to his father. Cadsuane finally stops attempting to mold Rand like silly putty, and becomes his advisor in truth (until Moiraine's return)after she is unbanished by Rand. After Rand speaks to his father, he has an overglorified hollywood romance run-to-the-same-point-hug...
Mat duels and defeats the gholam in his tent with a face-shot with he medallion melting it like the Wicked Witch of the West. Then, the dice rolling in his head coming to a stop, he feels confident enough to simply walk to the palace with Thom rather than wait for an invitation. After Elayne sets the dragons in mass production on a whim from her half-incoherent pregnancy-induced brain, Mat leaves for the tower. I will continue his portion later. Elayne is pissed at a border dispute with Cairhein, and in rage has one of the Kin Travel her to Cairhein, where she stakes her claim for the throne. She finds surprisingly little resistance, due to fear of Rand's Aiel enforcers. Elayne, caught off guard, leaves Cairhein confused, having set a date for her coronation--which is set to occur less than a month and a half after her first.
Back to Mat. He will procede to the Tower of Ghenjei with Thom and Noal/Jain, and follow what most people expect, leaving minus one eye, minus one Jain Farstrider, and plus one Moiraine Damodred Aes Sedai. Moiraine will marry Thom, fulfilling her words in an earlier book: I know the face of the man I will marry better than you do...
Moiraine will depart to Caemlyn to ascertain Rand's whereabouts and learn to Travel, and then will procede to go to him. to speak of a truce with the Seanchan.
Mat, having completed his quest, sends the majority of the Band to find the remaining faction, and goes to Fortuona, to advise her to meet with Rand about a truce until the end of Tarmon Gai'don. Get where this is going?
Prediction immediately before, during, and after TG: Under the new Seanchan-Dragon Alliance, Mat is named the Supreme General of the Armies of the Light, being the only one who both sides will accept, and also having more military knowledge than nearly all of the other generals combined! His subcommanders will include the four Great Captains, Perrin, Rhuarc, and some other people I really don't care about...
Mat, actually wanting to avoid battles, decides that being a ta'veren really sucks.
In Tarmon Gai'don, Davram Bashere will die, Moridin will switch sides yet again, and the Dark One will have a heart attack, which kills Aran'gar, who was resurrected by him in the first place. Mesaana will have died of boredom sitting in the Tower doing NOTHING.
Post TG Tomorrow, if I remember...
My last paragraph was a series of bad jokes. Pay them no mind as real predictions. I got bored...
Alice Arneson
480. Wetlandernw
Another note from Brandon's signing last week, confirming what has been mentioned several times here:

At the end of TGS, Rand was roughly mid-June, Mat was about mid-May, and Perrin was somewhere in April. His goal was to get all the major characters in sync by the end of TofM; it didn't quite happen, but they're pretty close. Translation: Perrin will have a couple of months worth of plot, Mat a month or so, and Rand and Egwene a few days, maybe a week.

He didn't specifically mention Elayne, but obviously she'll be in there as relevant. Perrin has a lot of travelling to do, which may not require much screen time, but you know his line will include the meet-up with Galad & co. so that Morgase is identified. Mat is obviously doing the Ghenjei trip.

BTW, this is in response to someone's comment that "Morgase has obviously been outed."
Jonathan Levy
481. JonathanLevy
I_have_no_life @ 479

We've already had a scene where Mat comes in and can't believe Egwene is the Amyrlin. I don't think it would be repeated with Rand. So here's a variation on your idea!

Rand enters the tower quietly to meet Egwene, and accidentally walks in on her smooching with Gawyn. In a scene full of fury and screeching, Rand faces the Amyrlin Seat and knows her anger!

Ah, the fulfillment of prophecy! So much room to maneuver.
LewsTherin
482. I_have_no_life
Hi. I'm back. In response to you, Jonathan Levy, The Wheel of Time has more repetition than any other series on Earth. Cadsuane constantly recieves the comment: "I thought you were dead!" Robert Jordan (R.I.P, genius) would use similar phrases repetively, would use rumor travel examples repetitively, and generally create deja vu every 12 chapters or so...so shut up and read the book thoroughly before you come back.
Before I speak of The Last Battle, I will touch up on a few things. Firstly, there is the obvious Logain vs. Taim Black Tower Supremacy duel. Logain returns to the tower under Rand's orders, and reveals Taim as a Darkfriend. They duel, Logain wins, yadayadayada...
As for Elayne's pregnancy, Rand visits Caemlyn to explain the issue of Callandor to Elayne, the one Aes Sedai he trusts enough to lead the circle. When he arrives at Caemlyn, he learns of her pregnancy immediately. He goes to the palace, once again disguised (Rand does that a lot anyways) to speak with her. A few weeks earlier, Avi returned from Rhuidean. He explains his dilema to the two. Elayne explains her inability to channel due to pregnancy. Rand searches the old memories for a solution. His answer: a vacuole. She can remain there for a short time in reality, but it will be as if she were there a long time, thus accelerating her pregnancy. Elayne enters a vacuole, and is essentially pulled out of time. She brings food, and Avi goes with her to bring her out at the correct time or in case of emergency. Mere minutes later, Elayne emerges swollen like a grape. Within days, she has given birth, with the traditional cursing at the father: "WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO ME?!?!"
Birgitte is knocked unconscious by Elayne's pain. Sucks to be her...
Directly before The Last Battle, during the gathering of armies, Siuan learns that the Aes Sedai that were Healed by Damer recovered their full strength. She and Leane approach the old man and ask for the same restoration, and recieve it.
The Seanchan Armies are marshaling their forces inside of their territory, preparing for the battle. They will come after the others, riding raken.
Finally, the Black Tower, now lead by Logain Ablar, is not to be forgotten. Having just learned new weaves from Rand, they are prepped to kick some shadowspawn ass.
Now then: There is the not so small matter of the semi-apoctalyptic battle with the supreme avatar of evil to predict. My predictions are probably overused here, but I think they are likely as well.
The battle will likely be fought on multiple fronts. Rand will leave Mat to command the battle while he duels Demandred, who will be Moridin's subcommander. After Demandred vents about how much Lews Therin accidentally ruined his life, Rand will use some ancient weave from some multimillion year dead Dragon past life to kill Demandred in the middle of his rant.
Egwene will lead the Aes Sedai to the white tower Nyneave will go to Lan's battle at the Gap with Alivia by her side, and they will turn the flow of the battle with their really overpowered strengths in the One Power. Nyneave will have her final epic duel with Moghedien, will lose, but be rescued by Lan, who decapitates the bitchy Forsaken immediately before Lan's wife's demise. Alivia will have meanwhile fought off Cyndane/Lanfear, who will retreat to Shayol Ghul, where she will be raped by Moridin/Ishameal/Elan Morin while he waits for Rand to show up. Aran'gar, really pissed that she doesn't have a dick anymore, will console herself with necrophaliacy, and will here a voice call, "You Forsaken just don't stay dead, do you?" and will be balefired from behind mid-orgasm.
Meanwhile, Mat's Band of the Red Hand, in the vanguard, will open fire with the deadly explosive cannons/dragons, courtesy of Aludra. The Trolloc armies will fall back, giving time to aid Lan's force and rout the forces at the gap. A two-pronged attack on the shadow's armies will be formed, and will push toward Shayol Ghul.
Rand, assembling his Callandor link-team of himself, Avi, and Elayne, who will be able to channel due to an event I clarify earlier, will Travel towards the Bore, in the heart of Shayol Ghul, the center of the Blasted Lands in the Great Blight. Rand will face 3 adversaries in the mountain prison. The first will be Cyndane, who will go on a rampage upon discovering that Rand brought two lovers with him, as if to mock her. She will launch balefire all over and scream out her anger, and we will learn of her story while Rand uses another long-lost weave to protect Team Callandor. After Cyndane bitches, Rand calmly says: "Mierin, Lews Therin never loved you. He just liked the way you looked." The ressurected Forsaken will shoot balefire at both Rand and herself, but just before her balefire hits Rand, the balefire hits her, which makes both disappear from existance. So, she dies, but dying makes it so that she doesn't die, which creates a paradox which after 42.675 seconds will completely unravels her thread. Rand moves along with Avi and Elayne.
The battle outside isn't going well at this time. Mat and Lan's forces are taking a hit from some of the darker creatures of the blight. Then, a large bird appears in the sky. One rider is on its back. Fortuona, the Empress of Seanchan, is leading her people into battle. Behind the raken appears a massive group of flying beasts, raken and to'raken alike. On their backs are the Seanchan soldiers of the Return. The appearance of the riders is signal to Mat. Instantly, he reaches for the Horn of Valere, and pulls it to his lips for a second time. A single, clear note sounds. And nothing seems to happen. And then...a fog appears.
Rand has reached a large room, with nothing but a fire, several chairs, and one large throne. Sitting on it is Moridin, the truest angel of death if there ever was. A great philosipher, channeler, and warrior turned to the Shadow. Moridin speaks first. "So, Lanfear posed no problem to you now. I knew she wouldn't. Now, we have truly reached what you call Tarmon Gai'don. Do not bother with the sword. I simply wish to speak...for now."
Flows of air catch Rand, Elayne, and Avienda, and force them into the chairs. Moridin continues, "Outside your armies face mine, just as they did over three thousand years ago. But now, you are outnumbered, not the reverse. Now, you will lose, and all of Time will fall under the shadow. My shadow..."
The battle outside rages, and the shadow is falling back. Then, the shadow brings in its final defense. The Black Ajah has over two hundred sister fighting the forces of the Light, and the tower Aes Sedai are helpless to fight back unless they themselves are attacked. Then, as the Seanchan descend, beings come out of the fog. The heroes of the horn have arrived. And Birgitte Siverbow is still among them. Birgitte reaches out to herself, having lost nearly all memory of past lives, and when the two meet, one disappears.
Elayne jerks as she feels Birgitte's light wink out, and loses all sense. She feels no sorrow, for she understands. Birgitte is gone, but she knows she will return soon, as a babe. Rand is speaking with Moridin, and when he mentions something, Moridin's eyes widen. It must be something from an old memory he started to tell us of, Elayne thought.
Avienda feels Elayne's shock, both through the link and their joint bond to Rand. She understands, she believes.
I've gotten through to him, Rand thinks. He understands. If the creator made the Dark One, s he did, then he must not have given him strength to defeat us. He cannot be omnipotent or omniscient. He can be defeated forever. And we can do it today, as the Age of Legends Aes Sedai intended with the Choedan Kal.
After thousands of years, I never considered this! The Dark One can die! Memories come to the forefront of his mind, memories of the so-called Age of Legends. Before the War of Power. Before the Dark One was remembered. Before the Shadow fell upon Shayol Ghul.
The Seanchan damane have destroyed the Black Ajah. Standing alone among clusters of corpses are its survivors. Of over two hundred, less than 20 remain alive. Alviarin is not standing, but she lives. Out of the corner of her eye, she sees a young woman with a seven-striped stole around her neck. Alviarin falls to the ground, hoping to avoid notice as a survivor. As the woman approaches, an entourage at her back enters Alviarin's vision. She knows the end draws near. The woman reaches Alviarin, and speaks. "I am Egwene al'Vere, the Watcher of the Seals." She produces one of the black-and-white seals to the dark one's prison. "The Flame of Tar Valon." She creates a white flame in the palm of her hand. "The Amyrlin Seat." She gestures t the stole draped around her neck. "I call you to judgement, Alviarin. As the head of the Black Ajah, you are charged with being a darkfriend and treason against the White Tower. Your life is forfeit." One of the women behind Egwene steps forward. Siuan Sanche. Alviarin had heard that she had been Healed of Stilling, but with much less strength in the one power. She outstretches her hand. Then, incredibly, a bar of white-hot light shoots from her hand. Balefire! Impossible! But she was nowhere near strong enough for--
The armies of the shadow were defeated on the whole. The only thing missing--was Rand. Where was he?
Rand, with Avi, Elayne, and Elan Morin(Now shedding the name Moridin) trailing, approaches the Pit of Doom. He hears a loud laugh inside his head. Out of instinct, he shoots balefire into the blackness. The laugh grows louder, and nothing happens. The balefire continues moving into the shadow...and moves out of sight. Elan Morin says, "Balefire will not help you. The True Power will not help you either, as you cannot use it any longer. The seals block anything you can do otherwise. Check on the seals you have here."
Rand checked. Two of his three seals were shattered.
Egwene stared in horror. The black and white seal, whole but a second ago, was now in pieces. "Oh no. The true Last Battle is upon us. The Dark One is about to break free!"
AND...I have no idea what happens next...
Those are my predictions right now. I may have forgotten a few, but I'll be back.
Cya 'round
-Ben
LewsTherin
483. I_have_no_life
Was my last post overkill?
LewsTherin
484. I_have_no_life
If anyone here has the time, please look over my prediction posts. They're very extensive at many points, and they were posted so I could see your comments! Please respond! Please! I repeat:I_have_no_life, so this is basically all I've got. Btw, I also have additional posts under Floorgenschneckleblop (mostly serious) and Mat>Gholam (mostly joking).
LewsTherin
485. Ghenjei
We will actually see Dragons. They live in the Blight. Mark my words.
Janet Hopkins
486. JanDSedai
re: I_have_no_life
It is very difficult to read six pages of text without any paragragh breaks. If your ideas cannot be structured, then most people will just scroll down (and down!), not reading your post at all.

Also, you have one supposition after the other, with no textual references. It is hard to tell if you are being facetious, or if you think you have said something response-worthy.

You might start with 3 or 4 ideas to begin with, one paraghragh for each. The Last Battle will not occur in TofM, and we will probably get some information in the book that will change our predictions of how it happens. At best, we will get everyone in place to start Tar'maggedon. At worst, Rand will die (the first time).

Your idea about putting Elayne in a vacuole was pretty good. But Aviendha is not back from Rhuidian, as of June first. I expect something has happened to her; nothing is ever straight-forward with our main characters. And then the rest of the post just blurs for me; what else did you say?!
Wayne Wilson
487. stylusmobilus
@subwoofer

Are you peeing yourself or has your resolve really crumbled? I understand that being the brand new poster as you are, you would be confused as whether or not to post spoilers...

I_have_no_life, some good ideas, but what JanDSedai said. It was a bit discordant.
Benjamin
488. revenge_inc
The Prologue is available for Towers of Midnight at ebookstore.sony.com for readers in Canada. I am
currently reading. PLEASE REPOST THIS at dragonmount.com if you have an
account(mine has yet to be activated):

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51100-prologue-availability-outside-the-usa/
Jonathan Levy
489. JonathanLevy
re: I_have_no_life
I think this particular sentance was overkill:
"shut up and read the book thoroughly before you come back."
If it was meant to be lighthearted and teasing, I'm afraid it missed its mark. If it was meant in earnest, you needn't trouble yourself with a reply.
Mike DMonte
490. MickeyDee
Freelancer@371
I'm not sure I explained myself adequately. We are talking about Royalty here (capitalised deliberately). Taringail's half sister is still an extremely important and close familial tie. Never having met her before or not it is inconceivable that Elayne would not know of her and their blood relationship. Taringail and Moiraine shared the same father. That father is Elayne's grandsire.

And speaking of Royalty, if you address a cousin twenty-times removed as "cousin" then you will surely address a "half-aunt" as "aunt", even if you only address them that way in the confines of your mind.

Oh, and now for a prediction:
Towers of Midnight will contain further minor mismatches of speech and names and titles ("sergeant" instead of "bannerman" for example, "general" instead of "great captain" for another) that will provide tiny little annoying bumps in the narrative, but we will mentally provide corrections and read on.

Oh and as an aside, I'm re-reading TGS once again. I found a full 12 pages that I somehow missed on my original read. 12 full pages! If you promise not to tell anyone else I'll admit I did a little happy dance!
john massey
491. subwoofer
I have been thinking- we have these huge Worms in the Blight, with not much to fight them. In LoTR, there were these giant eagles that fought the baddies in the air. Perhaps there will be a lost race of giant chickens from Shara to combat the deadly forces from the Blight. Just an idea.

Woof™.
LewsTherin
492. I_have_no_life
Of course I know TG won't occur until AMoL. I was making additional predictions beyond this, as I have noticed many people here do. And Jonathan Levy: Yes. My comment is in earnest. Seriously. Read the books man, not the footnotes. By the way, get a life. If you do all these things, we may see you back here by late October, if u read The Books 24/7. Your tiny brain will only process so much in a day, with the miniscule IQ of 73.
-Ben
Rob Munnelly
493. RobMRobM
@492. Ben - not cool or consistent with the tone we try to set on this approaching two year old (yikes) re-read effort. Appreciate it if you could focus on the substance of your comments - and from a quick read of the above you have some interesting things to contribute - rather than insults.

Rob
Torie Atkinson
494. Torie
@ 492 Ben

Telling someone to "get a life" tends to be more effective if your username isn't "I_have_no_life"...

But regardless, be polite. Insults and mean-spirited attacks won't be tolerated here.

-Moderator
john massey
495. subwoofer
@stylusmobilus- peed. Past tense. It has already happened. But I wear depends so it is okay;)

@Torie- big honking error post on Spoiler thread- send in the Marines!

Woof™.
LewsTherin
496. I_have_no_life
WTF?!?! I had a monstrous post for post TG, but when i did "preview comment" my comp deleted mah info! NOOOOOOOez!
:(
Roger Powell
497. forkroot
I_have_no_life@496
I've been similarly bitten - I've learned to compose my posts in another application (I like one that has a spell check as it helps catch typos) then copy/paste them to the comment box.

Btw - I'll echo some of the advice given above. Your best bet to get your ideas commented on is to break them down to 2-3 per post and use blank lines to break up walls of text. There's nothing wrong with a lot of smaller posts - subwoofer provides a good example on how to do that well.

Another thought: Why don't you "go grey" (become a registered poster). It really doesn't make sense to post under multiple identities (unless you are AlreadyMad) if you are trying to gain respect and continue dialog with this group. Trust me it's worth it! I've enjoyed the ongoing dialog and the fun and diverse personalities that hang out here (you might even get invited to the bunker.)

Also, as you've seen, personal attacks don't go over well here. Save the rough&tumble stuff for the comments section on your local newspaper's web site. BTW, Jonathan Levy is one of the most erudite posters on this forum, so you just looked silly attacking his competence.

I want to close on an upbeat note - I think your idea of Elayne in a vacuole to hasten the pregnancy is very creative and would be a great way to get her back to "battle-worthy" in time for TG. There were a bunch of other nuggets in there too, but it wouldn't hurt to refine the ideas and present some context for them.
LewsTherin
498. I_have_no_life
Post TG Predictions- Take 4 (Becuase of various circumstances forcing my computer to freeze or close my window or refresh etc...)
My Post-Tarmon Gai'don Predictions are finally here! I finished my homework, and my parents will now allow me to use my laptop. For those of you who find that pathetic, keep in mind that I'm 15! And although I'm possibly the youngest person who posts on this thread, I'm also a bigger fan than any of you (hence I_have_no_life). Anyone who contests this may fall asleep tonight and never awake. If so, well, I live in Pennsylvania, and I don't know where any of you live. It must be the will of the Pattern, like what Sharans say after their ruler dies after exactly 7 years...
Post-TG Predictions: Elan Morin will die fighting the DO.

Logain, having taken over the Black Tower, will convert them from the military organization needed for TG, to a more relaxed and safe place to learn to kick ass with saidin. The Black Tower will divide itself into sectors like those of the White. Asha'man will remain Asha'man, rather than reclaiming the title of Aes Sedai, which both is now associated with women and brings up dark memories or male Aes Sedai. The Black Tower will be formally granted a small plot of land around the tower by Elayne, via Rand.
The White Tower will record Egwene al'Vere as one of the great Amyrlins, as well as the only to wield staff and stole during two Ages. Egwene marries her warder, Gawyn (that's a shocker!) and is the only Amyrlin ever to have children. Egwene worked hard to reunite the Ajahs and incorporate the Kin. Aes Sedai swore on a new Oath Rod made by Elayne Trakand Aes Sedai, one that did not cause pain to remove Oaths, and did not shorten life. Egwene created a full and permanent alliance between the two Towers. She outlived Gawyn, and wept upon his death, but continued in her work until she, too, passed away.

The Towers decided on a location for the new Hall of the Servants, the name for which was decided by Rand, but still some of the more petty Aes Sedai hold their part in the name over the Asha'man. The men console themselves with the fact that they are far closer to the actual Hall. The Hall is just outside of Caemlyn, similarly to the Black Tower. Main reason being that the Asha'man cannot link unaided. Therefore, if none among the future Asha'man are strong enough to make a gateway, they will not have a far walk or ride. Aes Sedai facing this dilema can simply link until a circle with sufficient strength is formed. The other reason for the Hall's proximity to Caemlyn is that Rand spends much of his time there. Rand is First among the Servants, the title which Lews Therin held in the original Hall. Rand is in charge, while Logain and Egwene are equals below him.

Nyneave and Lan said their farewells and went to Malkier, to begin reconstruction of Lan's lost nation. On the day that Lan died, Nyneave lay on his grave, and died.

Tenobia dies before the conclusion of TG, and Davram Bashere, rather than rule himself, passes the baton to Faile. Perrin and his wife now control Saldaea, Ghealdan, The Two Rivers, and much of the surrounding area. Slowly, the lands blend under their rule, and the nation of Manetheren reforms, with the capital being Emond's Field, which is, ironically, where Old Manetheren died.

Elayne rules Andor well, and although she loses The Two Rivers, she gains the land of Cairhien. Elayne works to end Daes Dae'mar and slowly merge her lands. She lived a long life, and spent much of her time with Rand. She crafted ter'angreal and learned angreal and sa'angreal in part from Rand's old memories.

Avienda worked to ease the Aiel into new lands opened up by the Blight's disappearance. She was a highly respected Wise One, and spent much of her free time with Rand, the chief of chiefs who was no longer so. She would often Travel to him, or vica-versa.

Min became a philosopher, and spent too much of her time with Rand, but who cares? She's Min. Awesomeness comes with the right to do whatever you want. All of her Viewings of Rand were of later lives. His part in the Pattern was done for now. He was free.

The Seanchan never reclaimed Artur Hawkwing's Empire, but they were given the rights to much of the land opened up by the Blight, and explored the land far and wide. Damane were illegalized by Empress Fortuona and her Prince of Ravens, Matrim Cauthon. Channelers were given the option of learning in Seanchan lands, or going to one of the towers to learn. The a'dam was still used, but only as an extreme punishment, often for misuse of the Power. Suffa wore the collar all of her life, which sadly for her lasted 386 years. Suffa will be a good damane. Mwa-ha-ha!

Before leaving for Seandar via gateway, to restore order to the chaos in Seanchan porper, Mat finally gave over his medallion ter'angreal to Elayne. She promised to return it, and did so months later, having made copies enough. Mat often came back to RandLand to visit companions and friends or speak for Fortuona when she could not come, by asking a channeler to make a gateway. Isn't traveling fun? Mat worked to laxen the Seanchan society. According to Seanchan tradition, the Empress must have many children, so that only the fittest to rule will survive. I'm guessing you know what this means for Mat and Tuon, right? Tuon had many children, few of whom outlived her, as she did learn to channel and lived extrordinarily long.

Min died early. Rand mourned, but had become harder over time. Avienda was next, dying at around 200. Elayne lived longest of them, but eventually, she too passed away.

Rand stood on Elayne's grave. He did not speak; he did not move. One of his children approched him and spoke. Rand did not move. Alivia, the oldest character from the start, now decrepit as can be, approaches Rand as well. She asks one simple question: "Is it time?" Rand begins to weep. Alivia responds by embracing saidar. She weaves a simple flow of air, and pinches his brain. Rand's corpse stays rooted to the spot. Alivia walks off, and after a few steps, just curls up, and dies, her task finished.

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Fourth Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose above a stone grave in Caemlyn. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.
Roger Powell
499. forkroot
Ihnl@496
Some interesting ideas there. I don't think the timeline for Alivia would work though, since she's already 400 years old at the time of the books. If Rand makes it through TG and lives to his life expectancy, she'll predecease him by centuries.

Emotionally, I like a lot of your predictions because a lot of my favorite characters would survive and prosper. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that the wrenching change that would signify the end of an "Age" would permit such a gentle outcome.
Ben Norris
500. I_have_no_life
Well, the end of an Age is signified by an important event. I think that Rand's death is enough. Remember, the First Age ended upon the rediscovering of channeling.
Also, I know my timeframe on Alivia is screwy, but I'm trying to be optimistic, because I don't want Rand to die young. The other scenario I can think of that both allows her to die on schedule and for Rand not to die young is for her to modify Rand's bond with his lovers. As it is only one bond set from three people to one other, one change making it so that when the bond breaks, Rand dies. I considered this, but many people may not understand this.
Also, I forgot to include the breaking of the Rand-Allana bond *shiver*. Basically, Rand gathers her warders, has her fuzz the bonds, then Rand shields and then still her, so as to give a warning and not kill any of her warders from shock. Then, Flinn heals her and she rebonds the others. I think that it works out quite nicely...
Please comment on this and all of my posts. I check this just about every day now, so I will see your response. Also, I posted them to be spoken of, so Let There be Speach!
john massey
501. subwoofer
Let there be speech?

No disrespect, but I got shoes older than you. I do think that it is very cool that you came into WoT, a series that pre-dates you and are following it hardcore. Well done:)

Prediction wise, Good tragic bit with Lan there but I do not know if everything else is going to be sweetness and light. There are some folks that want all the main characters to live, but I am not sure about that. There are some main characters with long lives and some who don't have the life span of a channeler. ie- Min.

I am also very interested in hearing your take on Loial. And the Aiel, I am not sure what will happen there, and how they reconcile their past life with the Way of the Leaf. But anyways, some Aiel are going to die. I don't expect a big GRRM everyone gets it ending, but let's face it, at TG there has to be casualties.

Woof™.
Birgit
502. birgit
Basically, Rand gathers her warders, has her fuzz the bonds, then Rand shields and then still her, so as to give a warning and not kill any of her warders from shock. Then, Flinn heals her and she rebonds the others.

When Siuan is Healed, she feels the grief for her dead warder. Stilling might not work to break a bond permanently, unlike the Oaths.
LewsTherin
503. Up2stuff
I read a comment about Olver still having a role to play. There is also some speculation that he will come up with the key for the Tower of Ghenji. I have a VERY bad feeling after reading Seven Striped Lass and Leigh's review of TOM.

Did the Gholam get Olver? He is not mentioned in that chapter. I know the Gholam's victims have all been dramatically killed, and this would be a FREAKIN' TRAGEDY. Jordan said he can't be Gaidal Cain but somewhere a post said he still has a role.

I have been wondering if, for some reason Mat were to look at the homemade Snakes n' Foxes board and notice something off. Maybe a slight variation of the normal pattern that all other Randland kiddies played. This could be some kind of family secret kept by Olver's family.

I am very afraid that, after something happens to Olver, Mat and Thom are all distraught and going through his things (described in a LOT of detail in COT). Something along the lines of "...Finally, he picked up the cloth board that they played so many games on, and looked at it. Then he paused and looked at it again. Something was ... off; he hadnt noticed before. Adults knew you couldn't win so he hadnt really paid attention to Olver's board itself, but this seemed...different. The boy's voice recited the words in his head, "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind". Then it hit him. "Blood and Bloody Flaming Ashes!! I know how to beat the Finns!!!" he yelled looking at Thom. (Bloody Ashes is the only thing that bothers me about Brandon's version of Mat, btw)

I could see Olver's death being number 11 on Leigh's review page of TOM and now I have a bad case of Crapped My Pants. I hope I am wrong, but I see it being the perfect catalyst for Mat figuring out the way to beat Tower of Genghi.

Any thoughts? Please tell me I am wrong and beat me with the "get a clue" stick.
john massey
504. subwoofer
I dunno. I think the Olver thing may be a victim of too much hooplah. I am sure the thing to focus on is the game of Snakes and Foxes. Of course, in this story arc, Tower of Genghi, somebody has to be cannon fodder here.

Woof™.
Roger Powell
505. forkroot
One thing occurred to me today. Rand/LTT must die. Maybe Rand (minus LTT's memories) can be resurrected, but those LTT memories cannot be allowed to survive the end of the Age.

Otherwise, you've got the knowledge of all of the weaves of the AOL (at least the male weaves) available. Instead of ushering in a (presumably) different 4th Age, you will end up having something that looks a lot like the 2nd Age (AOL).

I guess the only alternative would be the loss of access to the True Source.
Henry Loose
506. schrodinger
I think that the blood that Mat smelled at the end of Seven Striped Lass was a red herring (not literally... but it could be). It was probably just his manservant with some freshly caught game... maybe a rabbit (clue 39: A rabbit for supper). RJ did this a lot, where he would set up a lighter moment with a very tense cliffhanger (the bottom of which was only a few inches below your feet, but it was dark, so you couldn't tell). This was to create the actual feeling of letting out a deep breath when a situation is a lot better than you thought it would be (also, Mat will probably overreact, push teslyn away, and jump into the tent screaming like a madman and startle the hell out of Nerim (or Lopin, I can never tell the two apart). )

As to the antics of I_have_no_life, well, just tone it down a bit. We are all passionate about this series, but it doesn't hurt to be nice (it helps in most cases). Also, jokes are meant to be funny, not insulting (professional comedians more often than not make fun of themselves, rather than other people...).

P.S. I understand that the Mat>Gohlam name is one you use to joke around, but again, probably wise to make them funny, rather than insulting (e.g. calling Moiraine, one of the best liked characters of the series That petulant little bitch Aes Sedai is probably not wise).
Henry Loose
507. schrodinger
forkroot
I disagree. The fourth age can look a lot like the second age, or it could be even better. We have examples of this in our own history; in the case of the Romans. They had an empire that in all respects was considered advanced, and there was very little that they thought they had not learned, but they fell (much like the AoL did, especially the burning of Rome). After a period of Dark Ages, we had a Rebirth, and society began to take on the form of the ancient Greek and Roman societies. After that, about 500 years later, we had the industrial revolution which completely changed the way we thought of the world, how we built our societies, and our forms of government.
The first step in creating a new age is to rebuild the old one, from there, you can expand on its knowledge and ideals. The only real difference from age to age is the approach. When the AoL went bye bye, they had the attitude of knowing everything, and so thought they had little to learn. When the 4th age comes, they will have the attitude of knowing nothing, and want to learn... but they will have some of the knowledge of the AoL, and can build and expand on it.
Sorry if I rambled.
Jonathan Levy
508. JonathanLevy
forkroot @ 497
:: blushes bashfully ::

Up2stuff @ 503
I read a comment about Olver still having a role to play. There is also some speculation that he will come up with the key for the Tower of Ghenji. I have a VERY bad feeling after reading Seven Striped Lass and Leigh's review of TOM.

What if Olver's significance is in the manner of his death? I shudder to think about that possibility. The only thing that could justify it (plot-wise) is if Mat will see the gholam at a crucial moment in TG and have to choose between Vengeance and Duty. Better not to think about it.

(Bloody Ashes is the only thing that bothers me about Brandon's version of Mat, btw)

Hear hear! But (for me) this is a great improvement over TGS, where (in my opinion) some Mat scenes felt very unauthentic.
Chris R
509. up2stuff
Forkroot @497

So THATs what the difference is between red and grey posts. I have been registered for a while now, but too lazy to log in each time I wanted to post. Ill "man up" and log in from now on.

Jonathan @508
Mat didnt really bug me in TGS, either but your opinion is FAR more established than mine. Like I said, only thing that bugged me was "Bloody Ashes" and names Mr Sanderson came up with. I think he said himself inventing names is not his strength, they just felt a bit unJordanesque.

Again though, Mat's "voice" was never really a problem for me in TGS. I know he is the favorite of many of our readers. I bow to those who have read through the series many times as it just keeps getting to be more and more monumental.

The only time I have read straight through was after the first time I read TEOTW, and the series went to Crown of Swords. Since then I have skimmed the last few chapters of a previous novel when new ones came out, but not a full reread. The nice thing though is that I dont have a first impression of a character "Fixed" in my mind for twenty years, and since they all Grow up during the story, Character development/changes arent so jarring to me as to others.

Maybe that is why any differences did not feel so right to others.
Ben Norris
510. I_have_no_life
schrodinger @507
I know. I love Moiraine. She's awesome. I did say I was messing around. And actually, when you think about it, tackling Lanfear was very un-Moiraine. My theory is that RJ needed her to go, but wanted her to go down in a blaze of glory. When she comes back, I hope someone asks her what in the name of the Light was she doing, and if her answer relates at all to what she had learned of her future, I will like Moiraine a lot less. The future is what you make of it. No one can be totally prescient, because knowing and telling the future will affect the future, so depending on if you share that knowledge, your predicted future will dissapate. Poof! Sorry. Sidetracked. Too much speculation of the impossible.
Btw, for my more moody and angry posts, know that I'm 15, pubescent, and I have ADHD. I have a lot less control over what I do than you do. C'mon. Gimme some slack!
Ben Norris
511. I_have_no_life
Oops! Rong post #! Schrodinger's 506 post is what I'm refering to, not his 507. Sry for any confusion in the past minute between posts! I blame my dog, Bean! Wave to the world, Bean!
john massey
512. subwoofer
? Less control? Mwahahahaha- I have- if you can't tell, my brain, mouth-typing censor restrictor plate has been on the fritz. That's why I spend so much time in edit and appologizing. Give'r. I enjoy some of the stuff you say.

And stop blaming the dog. We take that kinda stuff personal, y'know?

Woof™.
Ben Norris
513. I_have_no_life
Wat's give'r? And also, how do I know that you aren't my dog Bean? She's really fat, and act really dumb...unless there's food involved. And I guess brainfood (information) counts...
I have no new predictions that come to mind. I met a WoT nerd (like all of us) on my School Bus today. Now I can do something on the bus besides reread WoT books...you see? I'm aptly named.
-Ben
PS: REALLY? WAT IS give'r? TELL ME!
Mike DMonte
514. MickeyDee
I_have_no_life @510
Ben: No, sorry mate. It doesn't work like that. Whatever you may claim as personal attributes, age etc this is an online community and you get judged and treated by how you present yourself here.

I may as well claim immunity for anything I post by stating "I'm 44, moody, post-pubescent and am incredibly busy". BFD

And your response to Jonathan Levy @492 was completely uncalled for. We each of us do have a chance to consider what we post. So having considered what I choose to post I shall ask you to pull your head in if you want us to consider what you want to say. Otherwise you will find your posts being skipped by the others of the community.

Now for a prediction:
We will finally receive a Kamarile Maradim Nindar POV finally solving the whole "who killed Asmodean: She did!

- Considerately Mike
T C
515. Freelancer
It's ok to be verbose around here.

It's ok to be less than serious around here.

It's ok to poke a little fun around here.

It's not ok to be an obnoxious, self-centered brat around here.

Oh, and subwoofer's "give'r" is his equivalent of "Let 'er rip".
Theresa Gray
516. Terez27
This one is incredibly shiny. I should invite him to Theoryland; we'd have fun with him.
Ben Norris
517. I_have_no_life
Hi peeps, I'm back, as usual around this time of day! I had a lot of thoughts on what might happen in book 13, thought of while I was idly using my free time in school to read. Unfortunately, almost all of them were lost by the end of the day. :(

The first idea that came to mind was to have the Aes Sedai with Mat erect (dont laugh) a stone barrier around the gholam, and set up a watch until he dies of thirst. In a chapter from its point of view, it mentions that it must drink blood every so often. Much like the vampires of make-little-kiddies-wet-their-pants stories. The creature would not have survived 3500 odd-years without drinking, unless it was in that stasis box, which is probably why we have no mention of the other 5 or so gholam Birgitte mentioned to Mat. Back to the main topic, if they trap the thing, it will die! Woot!

A bit off topic here, but does anyone else here find it grotesque that Luc (Slayer) is greatly looking forward to killing Rand? He's Rand's uncle! C'mon? Can he really be that evil.

I'm wondering whether the Seanchan got any Travelers other than Suffa/Elaida. Elaida will take a while to train and search, as she is too strong-willed, though pampered and soft. The a'dam is not like the Domination Band used on Rand. It cannot control a body, only cause extreme nausea and force channeling.

What's going to happen to Graendal? I know I shouldn't post spoiler info, but we're all big enough fans to have bought the prologue! Where's she going?

Also, something to consider. Taim is like Rand's Demandred. Slightly weaker and less successful, and very resentful of it, and serving the shadow, possibly because of that resent. If Demandred weren't still here, I'd say that he was Taim's past life. Rand to Taim and Lews Therin to Demandred is a wierd parallel, don't you think?

Btw, Terez @516: What are you talking about? Who is shiny, what do you mean by that, and why is your icon a stick figure with a grenade?/can?/cup?

-Ben
Theresa Gray
518. Terez27
It's a harp, dumbass. Also, it's Asmodean. Brandon drew him for me. :)
john massey
519. subwoofer
shiny- is a Firefly reference. Be glad nobody is trading Vera for you;)

@I have no- I would suggest you go back and read the bit about egwene being leashed. Very informative. Also, when Moggy, a Forsaken was leashed, she became very cooperative. It does not take much with an a'dam in the hands of someone skilled.

Slayer- dunno if I want to open that can-o-worms, but generally speaking the killing of wolves- permanently- is not a good thing.

Woof™.
corey chapman
520. martianblues
I posted this on the Dragonmount prediction thread, but thought I should include it here also:
While reading another thread about Avi, I just thought of a scene that would be freaking awesome:
Avi gets to Rhuidean, no, she comes out of the columns having seen whatever she sees, stumbles upon one of the Forsaken girls rooting thru the pile of stuff looking for angreal (most of the Forsaken have expressed interest in such a cache). A duel ensues, both opponents snatching up items from the scattered pile, and hurling the Light knows what at each other. Avi wins, having discovered a few awesome items in the pile. It's about time for Avi to kick some shadow butt.
Roger Powell
521. forkroot
ihnl@517
There's a place for spoilerish stuff:
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/09/spoiler-thread-for-distinctions-the-prologue-to-towers-of-midnight#131253

Feel free to post there. Some prefer to avoid the prologue for the moment - please honor their choice.
Tina A
522. Tinaa
I Have No etc @ 517... There is a thread specifically for Spoilers. Please do not post them here.
Ben Norris
523. I_have_no_life
Tinaa @522 of course I know its no spoilers. But, be honest, if anyone took the time to come here and look at the 517th post, they probably own the prologue by now. They'd have to be a huge fan.

Martianblues @520 (by the way, there's no 521, lol!) Of course Avi would win. She can detect what a ter'angreal does without using it or even touching it! She'd destroy even a Forsaken with the knowledge, and she equals a Forsaken, thanks to her own angreal. Just sayin', but great idea there!

Subwoofer @519 I know about that, but technically an a'dam cannot force, like the Band could. It gives nearly incapacitating nausea as discouragement, but psycho-Rand from TGS would've ignored nausea at that point, save something to the brink of death, like the Choedan Kal in Ebou Dar. Technically, with high pain-tolerance (extremely high), and/or incredible willpower, one could avoid obeying the power of the collar.

How do I get my own name icon? I want something unique, but not a c2pid stick figure like Terez's...
Ben Norris
524. I_have_no_life
Btw, why does everyone hate Gaywn? I really don't get that. I think he's a great character, although misguided by his hatred of Rand, but Morgase's reappearance should remedy that, and I'm waiting on his apology.It's possible that my liking to Gawyn is due to the fact that Elayne is one of my favorite characters, and she has a high opinion of him, but I doubt that would be enough. Someone please fill me in on why he's everyones target. Did is miss 2 chapters when he raped people for no reason?
Roger Powell
525. forkroot
ihnl@524
The reason people don't like Gawyn is that he is self-centered and doesn't listen. Egwene told him that Rand did not kill his mother, yet it went in one ear and out the other.

Now... let's apply a bit of that to RL. It has been pointed out politely to you that this thread is supposed to be spoiler free. The correct response is not the "Gawyn response":


of course I know its no spoilers. But, be honest, if anyone took the time to come here and look at the 517th post, they probably own the prologue by now. They'd have to be a huge fan.

(I shouldn't have to point out to you that there are number of regulars who have explicitly stated they are not going to read the prologue until the full book comes out.)
The correct response should have been something like:


Oops, sorry. I've edited the post in question. Please see my post over on the Open Spoiler thread.

Gawyn doesn't even have the excuse of being 15. We've all been there, and you will find most in this group will cut you a lot of slack -- but if you really want people to interact with you and discuss your ideas you'll need to pick up on the general etiquette that prevails in the group.
LewsTherin
526. Dirtybird18
Ok I have not read though all 516 posts. But regarding giving up 1/2 the light to save the world thingy. Well I think maybe only the Finns can look though 1 of his eyes, and as part of the bargin, Mat will want to be rid of them spying though his eyes. So he'll have to give up the eye that they use. This also kinda matches his Fox head necklace, which has 1 eye and the other has the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. We all know RJ liked to use little hints and such. So by giving up his eye to be rid of the Finn spies, as part of the bargin he gets Moriane. Which I think there was another one of Min's viewings that said she who is dead and gone is needed for TG, see these all kinda tie together. Give up the eye to save the world and get Mo back, goes right to Min's viewing of TG and who I believe is Mo as well.
Ben Norris
527. I_have_no_life
Firstly, I actually have no idea how to edit my comments.
Secondly, I am sorry for revealing a spoiler to those of you who will not read the prologue and subject yourself to even more torture in waiting for the actual book, and I respect your decision.Thirdly, The frequency of posts has decreased lately. Why?
Jay Dauro
528. J.Dauro
I_have_no_ life.

As long as you post in gray and are logged in, when you look at one of your earlier posts, you should see  FLAG|BOOKMARK|EDIT in the date line after your name. Click EDIT


I understand what you say about torture, but we try to respect others decisions.

Terez27 was being complimentary with the "shiny", she was also referring to the WOT website (Theoryland) where people spend most of their time considering and discussing theories in minute detail. 

Interesting ideas. I am one of the folks who wants all of the good guys to come through. But I doubt it will happen. And I will cry.

I know you like WOT, and appear to have made it through all of the books. Have you tried Mistborn? The Way of Kings? What about The Name of the Wind? We all need something to hold us through the next month
Alice Arneson
529. Wetlandernw
I_have_no_life @527 - Last question first: Because some of us have a life?

First question: You edit by going to your comment and clicking on "EDIT" in the little gray text below your name but above the comment. It opens your comment in something that looks remarkably like the original comment box, and you can change things. Like take out things you wish you had taken out before you hit "post" in the first place. Or add line breaks. Or correct typos. Whatever your post needs.

Second: There are actually a lot of people who either choose not to read the pre-release texts or are unable to do so (for reasons like location restrictions). There are also people who will be waiting for Christmas to get their copy of Towers of Midnight, or must wait a couple of weeks while it is shipped to them in distant locations. While spoilers will inevitably creep into the general discussion eventually, we all do our best to keep them to the designated spoiler threads for a while, at least, to avoid making life miserable for those people. We consider ourselves a community of sorts, and try to treat one another with courtesy and consideration.

Not that we don't argue - heatedly! - when our opinions differ, but we try to argue the ideas rather than getting into personality clashes or name-calling. Clashes still happen, because it's all text and you can't really get the non-verbal cues right even with the massive overuse of emoticons, but we do our best. We also consider it appropriate to clarify when needed and apologize when we have (deliberately or inadvertently) offended someone.

Let me add that, much as you consider yourself an expert on all things WoT, there are people commenting here who contribute(d) significantly(!!) to things like the WoTFAQ, Theoryland, Dragonmount, etc. It might be worth considering the credentials of others before you leap headlong to the conclusion that your suppositions and interpretations are the only reasonable ones. If nothing else, "cut me some slack" doesn't keep you from looking like a complete noodle when you talk down to someone whose been collecting info on the WoT since before you were born. Just saying.

Terez @ 516 - ROFL!! Oh, the possibilities! But you might have to call him George and clean up after him... Or at least bandage the wounds, eventually. Wouldn't want to leave too much scar tissue. BTW, I love Asmodean. He's priceless. :) Cool harp. Is he in your book?
T C
530. Freelancer
Yeah, complimentary. That's the ticket. Umm-hmm.

Oh, okay. Considering the array of possible alternatives at Terez's disposal, complimentary indeed.

And Terez, I've been wondering why the little dead guy. Now it all makes sense. If I had original Sanderson artwork of that style, I'd change my avatar as well. Rock on.

Wetlandernw, I'm thinking they wouldn't call him George. Maybe Justin.
Kev Hamm
531. cavynmaicl
The Aes Sedai form three separate circles with the Asha'man, each circle as large as can be, and create the parts to a globe covering shield that they snap into place and thus, the Age we now live in is born.

But nuclear warheads can destroy the world shield.

And dancing with the stars becomes a much better show when those cast off are dropped in a vacuole instead of sent home.

Wait, maybe...
Barry T
532. blindillusion
Joy. The entitlement generation has arrived. Sigh.

Hmm, well, if I were to want to change my avatar/icon/name picture (for the smaller kids, we'll go with that) I'd simply follow the bouncing ball go to account settings (right under your name at the top of the screen), click the image tab, browse for an image and then click update.

Sadly, though, uniqueness is so often sought...but rarely ever found. Le sigh. But chin up, young one, chin up.

Too soon? Did I jump in feet first without really having a reason to? Well, perhaps. In my defense, though...wow. Really?

And besides, I really just wanted (5x3)-2=13
Mike DMonte
533. MickeyDee
Went to a mate's buck's do tonight. Behaved myself for a change. On the drive home I had a thought about WoT (well that and strippers) as you do - LOL.

My thoughts concerned Moiraine and Thom. They seem fated to hook up and some have suggested that this will be as unfair on Moi as the Siuan / Bryne deal.

Prediction:
Time passes differently in the land of the 'finns as it does in Randland.
When Mat, Thom and Jain Farstrider Noal rescue her they will find that for Moi hundreds of years have passed.
She will have about 10-15 years left of her life making her and Thom just about equal on their journey along the mortal coil.

Oh and as to why the 'finns may have held her for hundreds of years of their time - she would have a cartload of memories and experiences for them to feast upon perhaps?

Then again maybe I shouldn't try to make sense of WoT during late night drives! LOL
Jonathan Levy
534. JonathanLevy
Interesting idea about Moiraine, MickeyDee. It sounds like the type of thing the Aelfinn would do to a unprepared person who played by their rules. However, Mat & co are going to deliberately break the rules (assuming they 'take heed' of what they know about the game of snakes and foxes). I think that the only way they're going to be able to release Moiraine is by breaking the rules, but if they do so, then Aelfinn will not have the opportunity to work their deceitful tricks.
T C
535. Freelancer
cavynmaicl,

Wait, you mean by "globe covering shield" a world-wide barrier to the One Power, effectively ending all channeling? I'm having a hard time picturing that being effective. Perhaps if the "source" of the One Power were from outside of the planet. Otherwise, if the source exists within the structure of the known world, such a global shield would provide no barrier between any individual and the Power. ::shrug::
Ben Norris
536. I_have_no_life
Here's a little tidbit I find funny.
Moiraine, in New Spring, spends a lot of time feeling that Siuan is excellent at showing little emotion and working things out, yet while Moiraine mellows out, Siuan develops a temper. Incredibly ironic, right?

By the way, thanks to all about info I requested. I will use when I see fit, and I guess I'll check out Theoryland as well.

-Ben
john massey
537. subwoofer
I never really knew how to approach "New Spring". When I clapped my hands on it, I was happy as it was fresh material by RJ and gives background of key events and characters. That being said, Suian is still in character there. She came from nothing and was always very passionate about everything she does. Moiraine was known for her determination and remember, she was raised in the "Game of Houses" so keeping calm or a poker face is part of her upbringing. I think in large part that it is Suian's attitude that gets her the Amyrlin Seat.

Woof™.
john massey
538. subwoofer
Hmmmmmm. It seems that there is still a ghost in the machine. I am surprised :/

Edit- well, @I have no... so here goes. I get what you are saying about the male a'dam it was used to control Rand to choke Min. It forced him to do it. The control of an a'dam revolves around the damane surrendering control for fear of reprisal. While this is different, the end result is the same. Neither man or woman leashed is free and in control.

In a way it is similar to how Saidin and Saidar are controlled. Men must fight and take control of Saidin, show it who is boss. Women, Aes Sedai etc. surrender to Saidar and the Source flows through them. It would make sense that to control the users of such vast powers the same reasoning applies.

As far as having the will to beat the pain, well I am sure if that were the case, a whole subset of people would not be chained. If a person resists, all they can do is wait to be hurt more. They are captive and there is no end in sight. It is hard to keep your sanity faced with hopelessness. OTOH, it would be interesting to see the results of an Wise One being leashed.

And for what it is worth- give'r.

Woof™.
Chris R
539. up2stuff
Martianblues @520

Makes me think of the scene in Deperado where he is in the bar, fighting the bad guys, and they both run out of bullets, grab a gun off the floor, click, new gun, click, new gun, click...

Up2stuff
LewsTherin
540. Planeswalker
been a while... hello everyone! ;)

i see that we're all up and antsy with the Towers of Midnight release. one more month to go, huh? 3k+ comments here is definitely attainable. hahaha
Roger Powell
541. forkroot
Hey Planeswalker! ::waves::

3K+ comments? Yes ... heck we were threatening to do that earlier when Leigh brought up "gun control" in one of her posts. Fortunately, debates on RL issues have subsided and we're all waiting with bated breath for ToM.

(That's right "bated" breath ... not "baited breath" although my wife tells me that some mornings my breath smells as bad as fishbait.)

Many of us have dropped the $3 for the prologue. Plus Chapter 8 is out for free. So we've had our appetizer. The waiting is tough. Misfortuona (she's new since you were last here) is trying to see if we can skip October entirely :-)
Roger Powell
542. forkroot
By the way, "bated" is one of those interesting words in the English language which only appear as part of a larger expression (at least in contemporary usage.)

So you only see "bated" as in "bated breath". Similarly, you only see "aback" as in "taken back".

This time of year, my wife claims you only see "ensuing" as in "ensuing kickoff".
Paul Long
543. Caveatar
Has anyone here ever considered the similarities between the DO and Rand_in_the_Box?
Here is ol' DO sitting around chawin' his cud and contemplating his sins and BANG the Creator imprisons him. Locked in a box for all time. What for?
Then along comes Meiren whats-her-face with the BigBoreDrill and cuts into his prison in order to tap his substance for power.
Of course he reacted and violently.
Several of the FS tied strings to the DO or vice versa. At any rate they were tied together.
The DO has been trying to get out of that box for ages.
Could it be that good ol' Rand was imprisoned/boxed/chained/a'damed to convince him to let the DO out of the box?
Of course the DO is EVIL while all the Randlanders are saintly and good except for a few million exceptions who are no less evil than the DO, just less powerful.
Even in the age of legends they weren't all good people.
OK. Seizure over. ;)
LewsTherin
544. Lovemachine
most crasy theorie,could no see if you were joking,sorry.
it would be funny if rand would listen to aes sedai and do all they want,just to see how long the world would hold with those fool in charge-egwene is no much better than elaida when it come to think the amerlyn(and of course evey aes sedai,accepted and novice) is above the dragon reborn.
but i admit in her place i would wonder if the creator had to choose someone who isn't aes sedai,why it had to be him?
rand woold made a good soldat,but a leader?he's good at using his sword,no his head.
it's easy to see who is evil in wot-they all think alike-but i wish RJ has tought a little deeper about how the light champion should be like...
at less it wasn't gawin

my prediction:we will know who killed asmodean-why has anyone ever cared about that?-but never get a convincing explanation about why didn't the dark one didn't kill-or prevented all his cronnies-rand while he could have,only to get defeated-again-for the 1000000...time?
or from who was the voice in EOTW.
but as long we know how killed asmo,no right to complain i guess...
diane heath
545. jadelollipop
Awhile back it was a fun/easy thing to match up the Friends with the Harry Potter characters. Harry =Chandler Ross=Ron and Joey = Neville. Monica = Ginny Rachel = Hermione and Phoebe = Luna.
I was trying to see if I could do the same with our Taveren. I came up with Rand as Chandler again (in one episode Joey had Chandler trapped in a box contemplating the error of his ways)
Joey would be Mat (the womanizing member of the group) which left Perrin as Ross. Debating the 3 Friends as all of Rand's "wives" or as 3 other female characters
LewsTherin
546. shannon bbb
Mat will learn that his old memory's do not belong to other men but instead are from his past lives. after all in book 4 the Aelfinn named him son of battles
Daniel Hanley
547. dmhman749
To shannon bbb @ 546, we already know this is not the case. It has been discussed many times, but people keep putting it forward. We have had multiple examples of mat having multiple memories from both sides of the same war during the same time period. Given that it isn't possible for his soul to have been in two people who lived at the same time, your theory is provably false. The only memories that come from Mat's earlier lives are those he already had before going through the doorway(i.e., those from Manetheren). The rest are just the memories of a bunch of generals and soldiers.

To Lovemachine @ 544, the DO didn't want rand killed because 1.he thought he could turn Rand to following him, 2. he thought he could drive rand crazy and make him destroy the pattern, which he very nearly did, or 3. rand was being very successful in adding new chaos to the world just by existing. why stop him?

Any one of those three seem a reasonable reason for the DO's actions.
T C
548. Freelancer
Mat's memories are not from his own past lives

The author has answered this question again:

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.


And again:

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.


Mat realizes certain facts from the memories. They are from more than a hundred different lives, covering a period of history of about 1,000 years. They include no memories from the childhood of any of those other mens' lives, but they very often include memories of dying. From these facts he deduces that the Eelfinn create some kind of connection to a person who has visited the Tower of Ghenjei, allowing them to somehow record the experiences of that person up to their death. (Some had speculated that they simply read a person's entire life history from the Pattern, but that would allow the inclusion of childhood memories). No one soul could have lived enough lives far enough into adulthood to have visited the Tower of Ghenjei more than 25 or so times in a 1,000 year period. Mathematically, the memories could not all be of his own incarnations, even had he been reborn into a new body the instant after each death.
Theresa Gray
549. Terez27
I still wonder if RJ was thinking about Mat's pre-Finn memories when he said that. Aemon could simply be an ancestor of Mat's, and the memories were Old Blood memories, but it seems like too much.
T C
550. Freelancer
Lovemachine,

Had a terrible time trying to understand what you wrote, but finally came up with that you think Rand is good with his sword, but not his head. I beg to differ.

~ He played Lanfear and Asmodean perfectly, to get himself a male channeling teacher. In spite of not knowing exactly how they were setting him up, he had anticipated their arrival.

~ He figured out how to cleanse saidin of the dark one's taint, something even the forsaken believed impossible.

~ He saved Cairhien from starvation, while sidestepping numerous plots against him from Tairen high lords.

~ He saved Illian from destruction, and precluded war with Tear.

~ He kept Andor whole after learning that Rahvin had made a ruin of Morgase' rule.

~ He avoided myriad traps and ambushes set for him by the forsaken and other assorted bad guys.

Your words suggest that he's a mental incompetent who shouldn't have been given the duty of Champion of the Light. Yet he is the one who nearly drove Moiraine crazy for wanting to think (and read) things through before moving from Tear, when she believed it best that he simply declare war on Illian and make his mark. I believe that a very large measure of his problems have come from folks, supposedly on his side, who believed they knew better than he did how things should go.

The Aes Sedai who kidnapped him weren't all darkfriends, and their purpose wasn't ostensibly evil, but stemmed from the belief that the Tower knew best how to prepare for the Last Battle. That, and Elaida is an idiot.

Basically, Rand is no dummy, and the Creator chose well. Finally...
but i wish RJ has tought a little deeper about how the light champion should be like...

I'm sorry, but accusing the author of not thinking deeply enough, with all of the interwoven mythos, cultures, histories, and behaviors drawn from our own world, is absurd. I'm going to guess that English is not your original language, so the composition of the above is not an issue.
Daniel Hanley
551. dmhman749
To Lovemachine, I agree with Freelancer @ 550. Yes, things have not gone all that well for the world since Rand showed up, but thats hardly his fault. The fact that almost literally the entire world is against him(either directly, or because they think they know better). Of course there were going to be problems. Yet in spite of this, Rand has done an astounding amount. He had forged together a good quarter of the world into one force, mostly made up of people who outright hate eachother and would rather kill eachother than be in the same room. Forsaken, known for being very, very dangerous and intellegent people have regularly remarked on how impressive a leader and opponent Rand is turning into, not to mention all of the ones that he has beaten so far. To my eyes, Rand is portrayed as pretty much a genius at everything he touches. Maybe this is because of memories bleeding from LTT's life, maybe its just inherent talent, but he certainly isn't shown to not be a good leader(other than the insanity, but thats a different issue). Just because the world is going to hell during his watch doesn't make him a bad champion of the light, it just further highlights how much he has done in spite of all of that.

Of course, I understand why the Aes Sedai(and others) see rand as a threat. All they see from the outside is the destruction that follows in his wake. They don't see what we, the readers see, which is how much he works to limit the destruction and death, and how much he has succeeded in this, in spite of all of the death, destruction, and chaos that he simply could do nothing about. I read somewhere someone say that RJ likes to provide all the characters in the WoT with just enough information to draw exactly the wrong conclusion and see the other followers of the light in the absolute worst light. This is very true, but as the readers, we know better, or should.

-I likewise disagree with your statement that all the evil people in WoT think alike...I think RJ did a very good job creating different personalities, motivations, etc for the people on the DO's side too.
LewsTherin
552. Planeswalker
@Forkroot, i know. missed it here. ;) i guess im one of the types who leaves the bunker for a while, exploring the world. and then getting back here when the ruckus starts, in this case, ToM. hahaha

Mis was here since last year, right? and she's new? ;p made me remember that i was lurking since TEOTW reread, and it was multiple chapters then per post. I think I've mustered enough courage to comment on TGH (early last year, i think). man, time flies so fast. and here we are, ToM. next year - AMoL, and we have here a 2 decades-worth legend of a story!!!

i do believe in a conspiracy between the admins (yea, management services, you know who you are! haha) that they're posting these different WoT/ToM posts so as to minimize the impact of having thousands of comments in a single post. thats why we're still in the hundreds zone. or maybe its still too early. one more month, eh? it won't be here in the prediction thread though. can't wait!
LewsTherin
553. five12
Oh god, Nynaeve needs to meet myrelle immediately.
I've been waiting for that for a long time.

The towers of midnight title references the geographical location where the creator of the collars was imprisoned so perhaps that foreshadows a drama with the suldam and damane?
Rob Munnelly
554. RobMRobM
Terez and Free - I agree that RJ did not have his thinking cap on in answering those questions. Mat knew enough Old Tongue to be able to speak with both sets of Finns without an interpreter, even before he received memories. Ditto with his battle cry in EOTW and, more importantly, his Aemon memories revealed in TDR. So, obviously, not all other peoples' memories.
LewsTherin
555. Caveatar
Regarding the SeaFolk Navy and Mat.
Maybe too soon for this speculation but Mat IS in Caemlyn looking for cannon so,

My thoughts....

So far the SeaFolk have been 98% annoying and 99% useless.

Mat has helped them and they owe him.

Mat needs a way for his 'dragons'/cannon to be useful in the oncoming battle.
Assuming Mat gets LOTS of cannon and LOTS of ammunition to use in the fight there are logistics problems with moving his artillery to the blight/battlesite and supplying them and the crews.

I expect, (read 'hope') , that Mat will make a deal with the SF to carry the dragons on their ships along with necessary powder and shells.
The SF can spread out on the seas/oceans.

(Logain opened a gateway TO a ship's deck when he brought a message from the Coramoor),and I assume used it or another to return when he was finished.

The SF open gateways from the ships to the battlesite.
The ships would basically be moving targets if they opened a gate, fired a salvo, closed the gate, moved a bit, reopened for the next salvo.
Possibly even learn to open a gateway on the water for the ship to sail through to be even harder to track.
They wouldn't have to use only the Windfinders in the battle. The ships' crews could also fight in that case.

Since the massed hordes of trollocs can't go through the gateways they wouldn't be able to assault the guns.

The main problem would be dreadlords/Chosen channeling back at them and especially if one of the enemy could block a closing gate.
I doubt that the dreadlords could shield the entire blight from incoming cannonballs.
A critical danger would be that if they can do that then the seafold could threaten anyplace in the world and become a severe danger. However they don't like living on land so maybe it wouldn't be that bad a threat?
One of very few ways I can imagine for the SeaFolk to earn their keep in the LastBattle, (make that So Far Last Battle, there is ALWAYS another battle to come.)

Of course their Necessity of a Bargain would have to have someone who knows how, (Logain/Rand possibly linked with a Saidar Wielder), to show them how to make Gateways for moving ships on the water and fulfill their prophecy/expectation that
the Coramoor will make them the "Masters of the Seas" or whatever they call it.
This ability would make
Will someone please shoot this down for me? I am stuck with the idea.
Daniel Hanley
556. dmhman749
What a huge waste of channelers that would be. Cannons are great, but a channeler powerful enough to open gateways would do MUCH more damage channeling directly against the trolloc horde than opening gateways to shoot cannons through. The great thing about cannons is that they are not hard to shoot(of course, early ones blew up a lot, but hey, its war. people die), and they copy the effects of a channeler(poorly)--i.e. explosive death from a distance WITHOUT needing to waste any of your limited number of channelers on it. Requiring a channeler to baby each of them means you are having your channelers copy the offensive abilities of a channeler badly. why?

But anyway, given that we have seen a couple dozen channies destroy an army of 100,000, that puts the value of a powerful channeler at worth around several thousand trollocs. There is no way that a single cannon is going to kill more than a few dozen trollocs in a battle, so thats a completely insane waste of the most powerful people in your army. If you are opening gateways anyway, just open deathgates and kill 10 times as many trollocs with each gateway as you would just opening a gateway for a cannon to shoot through.

I hope that the seafolk stop being so useless and annoying as well, but even more, i hope that Mat doesn't go completely stupid all of the sudden, and use his resources in such a pointless way.

Does that count as shooting the idea down?
Bonnie Andrews
557. misfortuona
Hello All. ***Wave to Forkroot**

Welcome back Planeswalker. Should I be concerned that you remember me? Nah I was much more verbose then than now.

So thoughts (What? Sometimes I have them.)
This isn't so much a prediction as a looney theory and one that has already been at least partially shot down by my friends at Gabbly. Thanks Beren. But I haven't seen this anywhere else so I thought I'd throw it out here for general fodder.

So Mat giving up 1/2 the light of the world is normally assumed to relate to his eye, and that makes sense to me, but I have this thought.

If we assume that Rand is the champion for the Randland version of the prophesy and that Tuon is the champion for the Seanchan version than our boy Mat is put smack dab in the middle between the two halves of team light.
Forced to choose one side or the other could be seen as giving up 1/2 the light for the good of the world.

My prediction should this come to pass, is that Mat will choose Tuon over Rand reslulting in Mat's predicted (portal stones) betrayal of Rand and possibly even in Rand's death.

So there you have it my addition to the thread before it gets too big for me to play on. Enjoy smashing it to pieces.

Mis-not really wanting to skip October so much as have it hurry along
LewsTherin
558. I got a random idea
first i want to say I am sorry if i stole anyones idea i didn't get a chance to read through more than about one-hundred posts

and second I want to say my spelling is pritty bad.

Has anyone considered the idea that Rand's "knowing the Amyrlins" anger is posably rand will visit the white tower, Eguane will tell him about the break in the tower and he will give the tower the same speach that she did in TGS?
Daniel Hanley
559. dmhman749
to misfortuona @ 557, thats a pretty large stretch. There was also the...viewing? dream? whatever it was about an eye being placed on balance scales which wouldn't fit with your 'pick tuon or Rand' theory. Also, given that the Seanchan version of the prophesy is just wrong(corrupted by Ishy when he was Hawkwing's councilor), Tuon isn't the champion of anything...shes just misinformed. Betraying Rand to her would simply be a betrayal of the light, not picking one half of the light. My guess is that even if the giving up half the light/putting an eye on a set of scales/etc isn't a literal blinding, it will happen in the rescue of Moiraine. But who knows.

To I got a random idea @ 158, Rand has known about the tower split since book 5. He has already discussed it with Egwene before she ever left to become Amyrlin. Also, Rand suddenly showing up in the Tower and trying to give a speech would probably be met with mass hysteria, rather than anything productive (Egwene would know that, and probably Rand too). And finally, im not even sure how that would meet the definition of 'knowing the amyrlin's anger'. There are actually several things that Egwene is angry at Rand over(some his fault, some not) such as the asha'man bonding of aes sedai, him making aes sedai swear to him, etc. So her talking down to him (like she likes to do) about those seems a lot more likely.
Alice Arneson
560. Wetlandernw
Planeswalker @540- Hey there! Long time no see! Good to have you back.

forkroot @ 541 and 542 - That's long been a favorite of mine... LOL!

dmhman749 @559 - At the risk of repeating myself, your assertion that the Seanchan prophecies are "just wrong (corrupted by Ishy when he was Hawkwing's councilor)" is not really supported by... well, anything. If you haven't yet, go see the quotes I posted on Winter's Heart 20 if you want to know why. (Also, may I respectfully suggest that you create a bookmark for this http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372 location. It's a good compilation of the extra-textual info we have from RJ and BWS regarding many subjects - including the Seanchan - collected from blog posts, interviews, signing Q&As, cons, etc. A couple of clicks and a quick Ctrl+F search can save you from making many an unfounded statement which you will later have to eat. It won't necessarily change your opinion, but at least your opinion will be a little better informed.)
T C
561. Freelancer
RobMRobM @554

I think that we can allow that Robert Jordan was answering specifically regarding the memories Mat gained from his visit to the Eelfinn, and charitably not conclude that he erred. Yes, Mat is the clearest example of how strongly the Old Blood sings. His awareness of the Old Tongue, and of partial memories from ancient days, isn't necessarily his own past life or lives, however. The very concept of the Old Blood suggests that a corporate genetic memory from his ancestors exists within him. To a lesser degree, the same is evinced in Egwene, with her "almost understanding" of those Old Tongue phrases.

So there's that.
Alice Arneson
562. Wetlandernw
I think that there's a difference (and I think RJ saw it this way) between Mat's memories, i.e. the things he clearly remembers thanks to the Eelfinn dump, and his Old-Blood emergences. (There's a better word for that, but I can't find it tonight.) In the early books, he shouts out battle cries and understands the Old Tongue much better than he "should," but most of those episodes are almost involuntary; I would say, the logical result of "a strong case of the Old Blood" at work. IIRC, most or all of the distinct memories of other men's lives, in which he can clearly recall not only language, but specifics of events and cultures wherein they participated, come after his visit to the Eelfinn. I could be wrong; there are one or two places where there might be a more distinct memory prior to his visit to Rhuidean, but I haven't the wherewithall to look for them tonight. I'm sure someone will find the examples, if I'm wrong. But... I don't think so. I think when RJ refers to "Mat's memories" he's talking about the gift of the Finn, and the Old Blood heritage is not included.
Theresa Gray
563. Terez27
Just realized I missed some comments. I have a hard time keeping up with the threads here sometimes.

Wetlander@529 - Brandon drew him on my trivia champ certificate from DragonCon. :) I asked him to draw 'a funny face or something', and he decided to get creative on me. Go figure.

Also, I might call the Shiny One 'George', but I refuse to luv him and hug him.

'Shiny' is sort of a Theoryland term for a noob who is so very, very new and noobish that they are shiny. So shiny that they make your eyes hurt just a little bit. This one is shinier than most.

Edited to fix link.
Alice Arneson
564. Wetlandernw
Terez - Brandon? Creative? Who'd'a thunk it! :)

The Shiny One - is indeed quite shiny, by several definitions. Meaning was fairly clear, in context... George was less about hugging and more about getting someone to take responsibility for cleaning up afterwards. ;) Not your job description, maybe? I was pretty sure, all things considered, that it was intended to be a compliment in only the most backhanded way.

Love the certificate, BTW. Can't understand how you of all people could have won such a thing. (Yeah, right.) Anyway, very fun. And cool.
Birgit
565. birgit
there are one or two places where there might be a more distinct memory prior to his visit to Rhuidean

There is one when he is Healed of the Dagger in TDR ch. 18/19 and remembers ordering soldiers in a battle.
Ben Norris
566. I_have_no_life
Just a general comment about how Rand supposedly shall break the world once more:

Everyone is overreacting. The aforementioned break will likely be the shattered boundaries of the world, political, cultural, and general, and the reopened land under the blight's grip right now. The world will be so changed so as to be able to be seen absolutely differently, and in essence, the old world will be broken, with something new in its place.

Another thing, regarding Gawyn:

Gawyn's primary problem was that he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. He is incredibly passionate, and he loves his sister and Egwene. He goes a bit too far, and loses his logical senses. He no longer can make rational decisions. He defeats the Warders, and after the battle, he is calmed, allowing him to see that letting Siuan escape was the wrong thing to do. He wouldn't have fought the Warders if not for his situations, and he was a major deciding factor in the outcome of the battle that cost Siuan her channeling abilities, as she would have been rescued before her stilling. Basically, Gawyn was enraged because he was seeing events unfold up close, without knowing what was really going on. Then, he accidentally committed himself to Elaida, a woman he disliked. He gained a bad opinion of Rand from misinformation, again due to circumstance. Gawyn is a victim of circumstance, and his own emotions. The way things unfolded so precisely makes me believe that it is important events happened so. The Pattern had a reason.

Now, here's an analysis. Egwene would not have been Amyrlin without this event, as Elaida's bid for power would have failed. Rand would never have been trapped in the box, an event that was crucial in finally breaking him in the final events of TGS, which was vital to the story. Therefore, since those events were preplanned, therefore we can assume there is a reason. Rand needs those memories and revelations gained on DM to win at TG. If so, a closer look may be taken. However, it is late, there is rubbing alcohol in my eyes (don't ask), and my eyes hurt. So I think I will leave the remainder for another post.

One closing comment: Misinformation is very muched emphasized in the early books of WoT, which manifests itself in the form of rumors shown in the epilogues. Misinformation is crucial to WoT's plot. Tuon's hatred of Aes Sedai, Gawyn's of Rand, the public's of Aes Sedai as a whole, Moiraine's of Cadsuane, as noted in New Spring, the list goes on and on. Consider this. Usually, if an important character in WoT is wrong, it's because of misinformation, not stupidity.

By the way, I really do talk like this in real life. I think I may be the only person on earth who actually reads too much! *Gasp* I start to speak much like some books I have read, and I invariably use SAT-level words unconsciously. Don't make fun of me for being a nerd. If you're reading this, you probably are too.

(Wow. that's a lot of text. Again.)
-Ben
LewsTherin
567. Beachbum
Olver is gaidal Cain but this may not be revealed until MoL
Alice Arneson
568. Wetlandernw
birgit @565 - I just went back and reread that section. During the Healing, I would say that it was completely involuntary - he was only minimally conscious, if that, and his access to those memories was not deliberate. However, when he wakes up later, he remembers at least part of the scene he saw during the Healing; whether that was remembering the former life or remembering the memory of the former life is unclear. Not that it matters; the memory of commanding the Heart Guard in battle against the Trollocs and Dreadlords is clearly his. I'd say that one has to be from his own previous life. But if that's the only one, I still think it can be left out of consideration when RJ made sweeping statements about "Mat's memories" - particularly in a context where it makes more sense if he's referring to the Eelfinn memories.

Beachbum @567 - Spare us all. He's not. Never has been. Never will be. Thus Spake The Creator.
Theresa Gray
569. Terez27
@Wetlander - If sigs were allowed here (which I am glad they are not) that would be a good sig. Olver is not Gaidal Cain. Taim is not Demandred. RJ said so.

I would use it at Theoryland, but remarkably, most of our noobs seem to figure that out before they post.
Daniel Hanley
570. dmhman749
To Beachbum @ 567...ugg...why do people keep pushing this. And not just pushing it...people who believe this believe it so hard that they completely ignore the fact that it is absolutely impossible. he is NOT. Robert Jordan specifically said he wasn't. Several times. He had been alive for years when Gaidal was still wondering around in T'A'R', so he clearly had not been spun out yet. As RJ said, while time in T'A'R' can run slow or fast(a day in T'A'R' can be an hour or a week), but it does NOT run backwards. Especially not...what...7 years? backwards.

Just drop the discredited theory, please...There is more than one ugly person in the world. Gaidal Cain is some baby somewhere who will be of no significance in the story at all until the outriggers (if they are written).
Theresa Gray
571. Terez27
Even in the outriggers, he would only be 10 years old or so. Unless they were supposed to span several years.
LewsTherin
572. Beejay
I don't know if anyone has posted this before but, Mat's medallion doesn't stop male channeling. When Rand and company went to free Andor Mat was killed by lightening until Rand Balefired Rahvin. So the idea of Mat going into BT and stopping it himself is unlikely. Also I think the Medallion is made by Male channeling since female channeling ceasests to exist when it is channeled at directly.
Theresa Gray
573. Terez27
It does block male channeling; we saw it happen in Salidar, when Aran'gar tried to channel at Mat. Rahvin's lightning was not a direct weave of the Power, but rather the effect of the weave. In other words, it was not saidin that killed Mat, but electricity. This is why Adeleas was able to use the Power to throw a pile of manure at Mat's back.
Ben Norris
574. I_have_no_life
No one responded to my last comment. Now I am sad. Why do you make me so sad? WHY?
Barry Dias
575. Beejay
How is Lightening not a direct weave of Sadin either Brandon Made a mistake writting this or your mistaken because whenever any weave what so ever is directed at the wear of the Medallion it ceasts to exist when it touches it poof go and yes i know about the indirect weave if you didn't catch it the first time i specifically mentioned directly at it. So for those people who think oh Elanye will copy it she can she can't even examine the medallion with the power at all. So either it was made from Sadin or if I'm wrong it could have been made using The True Power. Or the finn's magic kind of like what they did Matt's memmory

I_have_no_life: I like your idea of the Breaking it could possibly be that but i was thinking that Rand conquering the nations; and the lands held by the Seneachans and Rand was how Rand is Breaking the world.
Daniel Hanley
576. dmhman749
To Terez27 @ 571, I thought the outriggers were supposted to take place 15-20 years later? I could be wrong though.

Mat's medallion explicitly does stop male channeling. this has been answered by both RJ and Brandon, both through interviews with both, and through proof in the books. While the lightning bolt itself is created with saidin, you then just release it and a bolt of electricity comes down, as a normal lightning bolt. You just gathered the electricity in the right place to shoot down and hit what you want. Its not much different from if you picked up a rock and held it over someones head, then released the weave of air holding it. the rock drops, crushing whoever is under it. No use of the power in the rock, so it would kill Mat. The lightning bolt itself is not a weave at all. just the gathering of electricity, which is done and over long before the result touches Mat. Sorry Beejay, you are wrong on this one.

As for the creation of the medallion, just because it absorbs the one power doesn't mean that it couldn't have been created with the one power. it is just a metal medallion until they complete the weaves turning it into a ter'angreal. Then suddenly it absorbs the power, but you have already converted it, so there is no need to put any more of the one power into it to make it a ter'angreal...it already is one. If that makes sense.

The power of the angreal would almost certainly interfere somewhat with examining it, yes, but it might still be possible to do some weaves looking at the structure of the thing from the outside without actually touching it with saidar. We don't know enough to say. But Elayne can't even channel at the moment, so it hardly matters.
Wilberforce Morgan
577. Wilberforce
Does anyone else think that it is weird having Eganin/Shipless helping Aludra with the dragons? She heard Mat say the next time I see Seanchan it will be on the field (admittedly possibly as allies). There also is no indication that she knows about the Mat-Aludra anti-Seanchan deal, but what does she think she is doing? She is keeping the Shipless name and I assume is still loyal to Seanchan.
Barry Dias
578. Beejay
oh okay didn't know about the interviews, also i forgot about the use of the medallion in Salidar what page was it on again?

Also i had a crazy idea Shaidar Haran is the Dark One's eventual vessel because he is different from all the other Myddraal. Just a thought probly wrong though
Ben Norris
579. I_have_no_life
Because I_have_no_life, I spend nearly a third of my waking hours reading or thinking about WoT. Recently, it occured to me that the DO is likely incorporeal. Think about it. Shadows and darkness are abstract concepts, simply being a lack of light.

Therefore, we can assume that a being of pure shadow, the supreme avatar of darkness, is simply pure darkness. Ethereal. Not a physical being. Therefore, how the Hell can Rand kill the Dark One. I believe that Rand will not merely imprison him once more, but will destroy the Dark One. Otherwise, all of these events would be for nothing but for the Shadow to be unleashed again in a future Age. Robert Jordan had more of a conscience and a heart than that. The Dark One must die. But how?

This question I now pose to you: How can an Ethereal being of shadow be destroyed?

Will a beam of light be enough? I doubt it, because then the Creator would not have imprisoned him inside a dark mountain. An omniscient, omnipotent being would've been smarter than that.

Can DO be killed in the corporeal form of Shaidar Haran? Can Shaidar Haran be killed? He is a Super-Myrdraal, immune to the One Power as well. Even if the True Power could harm him, what would one have to use? Balefire from the True Power wouldn't even destroy him. The balefire from that source would obliterate him seconds before. BUT, that would destroy the source of the TP at that same moment, which was before the balefire struck. The balefire would not have been able to form, due to the lack of a power. It's a friggin paradox! Did you even follow that?

So, please, take a whack at this question. I'm lost.
Ben Norris
580. I_have_no_life
One more thing. Rand is now at peace. Yet, in this same book, Perrin has to deal with his identity issues, and should end up caught up with Rand by the time he works it out. That's ta'veren for you.
Theresa Gray
581. Terez27
dmhman - It was 5-10 years.

Robert Jordan's blog 8 November 2006 - 'A Little Update'

So there you have it. Oh, finishing A Memory of Light, of course, and getting started on Mat and Tuon, and some others, five to ten years after the Last Battle. Those go without saying. Not a bad plan for the coming year, eh?

:(


Robert Hutchinson
582. Wolfger
I_have_no_life @ 579

Therefore, we can assume that a being of pure shadow, the supreme avatar of darkness, is simply pure darkness. Ethereal. Not a physical being. Therefore, how the Hell can Rand kill the Dark One. I believe that Randwill not merely imprison him once more, but will destroy the Dark One. Otherwise, all of these events would be for nothing but for the Shadow to be unleashed again in a future Age. Robert Jordan had more of a conscience and a heart than that. The Dark One must die. But how?

I do not forsee the Dark One being destroyed. After all, time is cyclical and this has all happened before and will happen again.


This question I now pose to you: How can an Ethereal being of shadow be destroyed?

Will a beam of light be enough? I doubt it, because then the Creator would not have imprisoned him inside a dark mountain.

The Dark One is not inside Shayol Ghul, the Pit of Dhoom is mearly the spot where he can be sensed most easily, due to a thinness in the pattern.

An omniscient, omnipotent being would've been smarter than that.

Only if one assumes that the Creator desired the Dark One to be destroyed/unable to touch the world from time to time. This is an old philisophical argument, "If God is all powerful and all knowing why is there evil in the world." Perhaps there is a reason for that evil that man cannot understand. Even Shai'tan's influence has a place in the Pattern.


Can DO be killed in the corporeal form of Shaidar Haran? Can Shaidar Haran be killed? He is a Super-Myrdraal, immune to the One Power as well.

We do not know that he is immune to the One Power, we only know that channelers have been unable to sense the One Power in his presence a couple of times. We do not know if this is an active or passive power of his. If it is active, then he would have to be aware of the threat to block the One Power access. We also do not know if this power only applies to Darkfriends/Forsaken or any channeler.

Even if the True Power could harm him, what would one have to use? Balefire from the True Power wouldn't even destroy him. The balefire from that source would obliterate him seconds before. BUT, that would destroy the source of the TP at that same moment, which was before the balefire struck. The balefire would not have been able to form, due to the lack of a power. It's a friggin paradox! Did you even follow that?

Yup, isn't paradox fun? :)Though in this case, one would have to suppose that Shaidar Haran *is* the Dark One, and not merely a vessel/avatar. Destroying an avatar would not necessarily destroy the entity, though it might severly knock it's power down for a while (Donaldson's Lord Foul being diminished for several centuries by Thomas Covenent for instance)
Janet Hopkins
583. JanDSedai
re: Ben@566 Gawyn's circumstances

RJ was quoted as being curious how people made life and death decisions on limited information, and the WOT is intended to reflect that interest. While the main characters have certainly made some stupid decisions, on the whole, they have acted the best they could to fight for the light.

Gawyn, on the other hand, has made one bad decision after another. Was he acting on all the information available? Did he do anything to get more information? And did he make those decisions based on higher principles? I think you are right; Gawyn is a victim of circumstance, directly contrasting Rand, who has navigated a torturous course between what people expect him to do and what he is called to do.

Yes, Gawyn is someone who was making decisions on limited information, but made the wrong decision. I guess this is supposed to point up the difference between him and Rand.
Daniel Hanley
584. dmhman749
Ah...well, i guess i was not remembering the timing of the planned outriggers. Whoops. Regardless, RJ said that Gaidal Cain's roll would be in the beginnings of the fourth age. So i guess even after the outriggers. Doesn't really matter.

Wolfger @ 582 appears to have summed it up rather well...I agree that the DO will not be killed. RJ has said that there is nothing significantly different about this age than any other third age, so there is no reason to think Rand will kill the DO.

Shadar Haran is, at best the DO's avatar. the DO would never limit himself by puting himself into a physical body. I'm sure Shadar Haran will have a major roll to play in the last battle, but that doesn't mean his death would mean the death of the DO. Also, yes, all we have seen is him making forsaken unable to channel so far. it may be a function of their links to the DO. We have no evidence to support that no one can channel around him. Besides, a lot of people think that Mat will be the one to fight Shadar Haran, so it doesn't really matter if he can stop channeling in that case.

To JandSedai @ 583, yes, everyone acts on the information they have, and Rand and others have made bad calls based on the information they have in the past, some of which have gotten a lot of people killed. Thats understandable, and acceptable.

There is a difference between them and Gawyn though...Gawyn just accepts the information he has at hand as the absolute truth. Regardless of how flimsy that evidence is, or how much opposing evidence he actually has, he just shrugs and believes it absolutely every time. The other characters keep searching for more information to allow them to make better decisions. Gawyn doesn't seem to care. He takes the first story he hears about how his mother dies and practically dedicates his life to that rumor. He also has no trust in anyone else's decisions, and believes he knows best in all cases(He rejects that Elayne and Egwene might know what they are doing when they left the tower, and so he develops a hatred of Siuan for sending them out of the tower, which is what leads him to side against her. Then he rejects Egwene saying that Rand didn't kill his mother, even though she is in a whole lot better position to know than the random people on the street of an entirely different country, who he believes.)

So no. I do not accept the fact that he has acted on what he believes to be true as rationalization for his continued bad decisions. You have to actually do the best you can to verify that what you believe is true in order for that to be a valid excuse.
Tricia Irish
585. Tektonica
Brought this over from the "Apples" thread...no spoilers.
I thought it belonged here.

CFP, Robss, Matt123:
I do like the idea of Elayne making some helpful ter'angreal! (Especially since she can't channel a lick these days.) She must have some role to play. That could be why RJ had her asking to see Mat's Medallion repeatedly.

Perhaps the Gholam, which the medallion blocks and hurts, is some manifestation of the TP, thus Dark, and whatever the medallion "is" could be used to protect Rand and his three from the TP, while weaving the Pattern shut on the DO?
Jared Farish
586. jfarish102
Long-time reader, lurker here.

I haven't read all the comments, so maybe I'm repeating someone, but several things struck me when I read chapter 1. Rand's ta'avern nature has always been random in the past: maybe it would do good, or maybe it would do evil. This now seems to me to be inline with Rand's own internal battle: will he become like the forsaken in order to fight the forsaken, or will he stay true to his inherently good nature? Now that he has decided to soften his heart and stay good, his ta'avern nature seems to be working in overtime for the good against the dark one:

“Yes,” the lad said. Then he nodded toward the orchard. “Gather your people and collect those apples. They’ll be needed in the days to come.”
“The apples?” Almen said, turning. “But—” He froze. The trees were burgeoning with new, ripe red apples. The blossoms he’d seen earlier had fallen free, and blanketed the ground in white, like snow.
Those apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold, each one perfectly ripe.
“I am going mad,” Almen said, turning back to the man.
“It’s not you who is mad, friend,” the stranger said. “But the entire world. Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch.”

In addition, it makes sense to me that that is why Min's viewing said that Cadsuane needed to teach him how to laugh again: it is necessary for Rand to be happy/good in order to be the Creator's hero in the battle with the Dark One. I'm interested to see what his ta'avern nature has in store for the rest of the book.

This may be all off, but I don't care as long as the book comes out! Yay!
John Mann
587. jcmnyu
So this is a little out of left field, but a thought occurred to me while reading discussion of the possibly corrupted version of prophesy the Seanchan have. What/who could make the Seanchan believe they are wrong? Only one man, Hawkwing himself. It's too bad he's dead and could never pass on his influential opinions to today's Empress-ish youth. If only there were a man in a hat, who could arrange a conversation between the dead Hero, if you will, and the Empress of the Seanchan. But how would he do it, you ask? The only thing I can come up with is a magical horn, but that's silly. And what else could that Heroic man tell the young Empress? Stop leashing people who can channel? Follow the Dragon as I do? Quit with the slavery in an empire that proclaims to honor my memory? All these things are possible if such an impossible conversation were to occur.
Daniel Hanley
588. dmhman749
To jfarish102 @ 586, this thread is not supposted to have spoilers for ToM. There is a specific thread for chapter one spoilers you can post that on, but you should probably remove at least the quote from chapter one from this thread before a mod gets on you. Some people are waiting to read the entire book at once after it comes out, but still read threads that are not supposted to have spoilers in them, so...

Anyway, to jcmnyu, that might end up happening, but at the moment no one living except maybe siuan knows exactly where the Horn is. Mat knows its somewhere in the Tower, but he wouldn't go to Tar Valon unless he had absolutely no other choice. So the horn is not exactly available to call up the Hawkwing to explain things to Tuon.

Also, we don't really know what Hawkwing's thoughts on channelers are. He did lead a 20 year war on Tar Valon and put a huge bounty on the head of any Aes Sedai. Yeah, it was because of Ishy's influence, but some of that might still remain...who knows. For the other stuff...maybe. We will see.
Torie Atkinson
589. Torie
@ 586 jfarish102

What @588 dmhman749 said.

I whited out your discussion of the book so that you can copy and paste it into the appropriate thread. Please delete it here once you've done so (I didn't want to delete it and have you lose your comment).

-Moderator
T C
590. Freelancer
I_H_N_L @566

Since you literally begged for a response...

By the way, I really do talk like this in real life.

Like what?


One closing comment: Misinformation is very muched emphasized in the early books of WoT

Aha. Well, let us ignore that, and consider your comments a bit:


Everyone is overreacting.


How nice of you to say. We shall endeavor to curb our passions forthwith.

RE: Gawyn

He goes a bit too far, and loses his logical senses. He no longer can make rational decisions. He defeats the Warders, and after the battle, he is calmed, allowing him to see that letting Siuan escape was the wrong thing to do.


Letting Siuan go was the right thing to do, pretty much the only right thing he did in those first few days.

Then, he accidentally committed himself to Elaida, a woman he disliked.

Not an accident. Gawyn chose freely to take the side of the apparently lawful Amyrlin. Also, in spite of not ever having affection for Elaida, at this moment he has a far greater dislike for Siuan, for having hidden his sister's (and Egwene's) whereabouts and activities from him, while he considers Elayne's safety his prime function in life.

Now, here's an analysis.


Basically, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, is what you've said there.


I_H_N_L @579

Yes, the dark one is very likely a non-corporeal spirit entity. No, Rand will very likely not destroy the dark one. To answer your next question within the WoT realm requires information we are not yet privy to. Within any realm we are normally able to understand, you cannot destroy a spirit, only a body can be killed. Within the WoT-verse, with Tel'aran'rhiod, it can be assumed that other results are possible, especially given what Perrin learns from the wolves, that if they are killed in the dream world, they are gone forever. But we really don't know enough to say. What we do know is that the dark one isn't imprisoned inside a mountain, it is simply at Shayol Ghul where his presence is most clearly sensed.

For the Last Battle, the correct result must be for the dark one's prison to be sealed in a perfect way. The Creator made the dark one when he made the rest of the universe, which means his existence was required. Moridin confirms this (as much as he can be believed), when he tells Rand that he has no idea how stupid a plan it is to intend to kill the dark one. While Ishamael is not one to hold the truth in any great respect, his words here don't seem like a deception. Also, the clues provided by Herid Fel, and the ongoing study by Min, speak directly to the necessity of discovering a more permanent method of sealing the prison, a pursuit which would be utterly pointless if destruction of the dark one were the true answer.
LewsTherin
591. Beejay
Rand and Morridin are linked because of the balefire thing right?
So I wonder if their Balefire Streams cross again if they will be linked even or will it break the link?

Also since Mordin and Rand are linked will the link carry over perminently to future encarnations of The two? Could their souls Merge into one being because the prediction is the two becoming one. Like the profecy states. because Rand and Lews Therin were already one but Rands mind was rejecting that well the memmories. So could it be refering to rand and mordin becoming one
Michael Catapano
592. hoping
free
Can a mere human do a better job at sealing the DO than the Creator, even if he is the Dragon?
Ben Norris
593. I_have_no_life
I had a lot of typos in my last large post. Don't laugh at them. I was tired. I made mistakes. Deal with it.
In a completely unrelated topic, I suggest reading Chapter One, even to those of you who want a spoiler-free experience. It is very uplifting, which helps with the depression throughout most of Book 12.
LewsTherin
594. Beejay
No a mere man can't but the reason why the Dragon can is because he is also the unifying force that bands humanity together to combat the DO so where he can't do it himself he has the rest of the World to help him.
Robert Hutchinson
595. Wolfger
hoping @ 592

Technically, we know that the Dragon (most likely) indeed CAN seal the bore perfectly. As it has been done in past turnings of the wheel. I would hypothesize that the Dark Ones influence on the Ages of the Wheel possibly looks something like:

First: ?Our Age? (probably) - The Dark one is a dim memory, and is forgotten before the next Age
Second: Age of Legends - The bore is drilled, the Dark One touches the world and is sealed (imperfectly)
Third: Age of the Dragon - The seal fails, the Dark One touches the world more directly
Fourth: ?Age of Science? Dark one is a memory. The good lead in to science from the end of the 3rd makes science the dominant goal/driving force.
Fifth: ?Age of Space travel? Dark one forgotten. (We know that at least some ages travel to the stars, both Thom and Moghedian make reference to it)
Sixth: ?Age of "Whoops we effed up again"? - Dark one is discovered again. (Something has to lead to the near destruction of humanity in the next age)
Seventh: ?Age of Destruction by Ice? - Age ends in near destruction of everything (as our Age begins (theoretically) with few people and no tech. Everything has to be learned from scratch. Dark one vanquished.

Note: This is all theoretic and guesswork.
Alice Arneson
596. Wetlandernw
dmhman749 @584 -
Gawyn just accepts the information he has at hand as the absolute truth. Regardless of how flimsy that evidence is, or how much opposing evidence he actually has, he just shrugs and believes it absolutely every time.
Sorry, dude, there's a serious logic fail there. If he has opposing evidence at hand but dismisses it, then obviously he doesn't believe "the information he has at hand" "absolutely every time." It's just that from what we've seen, he chooses to believe the wrong set of evidence in several rather critical situations. He has occasionally made a right choice, though usually for reasons that are just as lame as his reasons for making the wrong choices. One might suppose that when Mat beat the tar out of G&G back in the day, Gawyn took an unnoticed blow to the head and hasn't been able to think clearly since. Gotta be something like that.
hoping @592 - I don't think Freelancer was implying that Rand could do a better job than the Creator, but that Rand as the Dragon may be given the ability to recreate the Dark One's prison as the Creator first made it. Then it would be whole, just like it was before Mieren & Beidomon drilled the Bore. It has to be done somehow, in some Age, before the AOL so that it will be whole and perfect for them to drill again when the Wheel turns to that Age next time around.
Daniel Hanley
597. dmhman749
*grin* Come on Wetlandernw! exaggeration is the very heart and soul of weak arguments made on forums! we can't reject that legacy! Gawyn is like Hitler!

Anyway, yeah, obviously not every decision he makes is completely stupid. But come on people. The world is at stake. You can't make even the occasional decision of that level of importance without considering all the facts and doing your absolute best to find the truth. A test at which Gawyn has failed several times no matter how you look at it. And now he wants to kill the Dragon Reborn. Even if Rand really did torture and rape and murder Gawyn's mother like he probably thinks he did, he still shouldn't kill him. He is the Dragon Reborn, and everyone he claims he wants to protect dies or gets bound by the Dark One if he murders Rand(or at least thats what is generally believed based on the information at hand. Really, its not such a big deal because Rand is going to be brought back somehow if Gawyn does kill him, but thats something only the reader knows).
Wayne Wilson
598. stylusmobilus
Gawyn Trakand will not kill Rand. Think about it.
Alice Arneson
599. Wetlandernw
dmhman749 -- LOL!! Gawyn is like Hitler!!

In essence, I agree (although less fervently) with your main point, that for whatever reason, Gawyn seems incapable of really thinking through most of his decisions or carefully weighing the evidence. While I agree with Freelancer's position that there's no real reason to suspect Compulsion, I do sometimes have to wonder why he is so passionately convinced that Rand is to blame for his mother's death, to the point that he's unwilling to consider any evidence to the contrary. I'm beginning to think I like my looney theory that something came loose when Mat whacked him in the head. :)

Oddly enough... I just went back and read that passage. Gawyn was showing a rather intense interest in Rand even back then... And Mat did whack him in the head, hard enough to take him out of the fight completely. Hmm. Oh well. Maybe we'll find out what his deal is someday.

Maybe he's a DF.
Hugh Arai
600. HArai
Wetlandernw@599: I know I shouldn't get into this one yet again but what evidence are we referring to? What has he had to work with beyond some people saying "Rand did it" without any proof, and some people saying "Rand didn't do it" without any proof?

Egwene saying she doesn't think Rand did it is not proof, Egwene thinks a lot of things that aren't true. Ditto for Min and Elayne.

I don't know why he's come down so strongly on "Rand did it" either, but someone will have to have some evidence before Gawyn can be unwilling to consider it :)
Michael Catapano
601. hoping
Beejay
Wolfger
Wetlandernw

If the dragon only seals away the DO, as has probably happened in past ages, then we only have another stalemate in the age old struggle between light and dark. The upcoming TG would then only be 'a last battle,' not "The Last Battle."

It seems we are getting some clues that Rand is thinking beyond that and actually wants to eliminate the DO. I understand that Moridin dismisses this idea, but he doesn't know everything.

You may be right but it would be a more dramatic ending for the DO to be destroyed and I think it's heading that way. RAFO for sure.
T C
602. Freelancer
To Gawyn, trained by Gareth Bryne, Rand is a curiosity. A farmboy from so far West in Andor as to not realize it's part of that realm. An Andorman with Aiel size, shape and coloring. A clearly ignorant post-adolescent with a heron-mark blade. Last but not least, a young man in whom his sister took an immediate interest, though not initially romantic.

How could Gawyn not show an interest in this conundrum who feel into his palace garden? And lest we forget, ta'veren.
Birgit
603. birgit
She takes a side-trip to the White Tower to beat Lan's bond out of Myrelle, and has just managed to complete the weave for passing the bond when she feels a stab of unbelievable pain through the bond.

Don't they all have to be in the same place to pass the bond?

Egwene was there when Rand left for Caemlyn, which was just after he got news on Morgaise's death...Egwene knows that Rand fought a forsaken in Caemlyn when he arrived.

The problem is that Eg didn't tell him that. She was too interested in kissing him to bother with long explanations.
Daniel Goss
604. Beren
Don't they all have to be in the same place to pass the bond?

I don't see how -- Moiraine, Myrelle and Lan were not in the same place when Moiraine set up the weave that would pass his bond. At the least, I assume that Lan would have noticed if there were any participation required on his part.
-Beren
LewsTherin
605. Moteth
Minor prediction

2 girls fell into a red archway, one much stronger than the other.

One of them is free again - unexplainably weaker in power
The other is yet to come out..

Its your classic transformation magic power-swap.

Moiraine2.0 - now with 50% more juice.

It potentially means she will go on to do something significant with her power - a solo achievement of some kind.

Getting chills at the idea Olver is the smell at the end of chapter 8.
Chris Lough
606. TorChris
Hi everyone,

The site had a hiccup this afternoon and we seem to have lost all updates made here since midnight. We've restored all posts but any comments made are gone for good. We apologize for the inconvenience and can only offer this in explanation: Never trust time travelers.

Love,
Team Tor
Daniel Hanley
607. dmhman749
There is a much more likely explaination Moteth...Lanfear had a weak angreal (probably the silver belt or something like that that she always wears). There are several peices of evidence for this.
1.Several people remark on the fact that Lanfear liked to hide her true ability (making herself appear weaker when a woman sensed her by being close to her than she truely was). Now its possible she was doing just that, but Lanfear was a very proud woman. She liked people to know she was powerful. So the more likely answer is that she had an angreal that she always used to make her channel more than it would seem she could by sensing her strenth. In fact, Lanfear showing off her great strenth without admitting she was using an angreal all this time is exactly the sort of thing I could see her doing.2.It has been stated a couple of times(i think once by a forsaken) that lanfear was more powerful than anyone thought it was possible for a woman to be. Again, its possible she really was...but again, its more likely that she was just right at the top of as powerful as a woman could be, but then used a very small angreal to boost herself further(weak enough that people just accepted that she was a little stronger than anyone ever knew was possible)
3. Her decrease in power is pretty small. She is still very strong in the power after she comes out. In fact, she is still probably the most powerful of the female forsaken. She just isn't impossibly strong anymore. But it isn't anywhere near the sort of decrease from the only other time we have seen someone decrease in the amount of power they could use(after Suian and Leane got healed by a woman from being severed). Certainly she is still MUCH stronger than Moiraine was(who, while strong for an Aes Sedai, couldn't come close to comparing with any of the forsaken's power levels), so they clearly didn't swap their levels of ability or anything like that.

So it seems much more likely that Lanfear was just hiding an angreal she has had all this time than that the Finns randomly decreased her ability with the One Power by only a little bit, without severing her.

Its possible that Moiraine has that angreal now, but it would be such a weak angreal that I don't see how it would matter much.

Olver isn't dead yet. RJ said that Olver had a significant roll in the coming events, and I don't see how him randomly dying here would fit that. My guess is that it will have something to do with Moiraine's rescue...he might die at that point, but until then, he should be pretty safe. Unless Olver wrote out some important thing he figured out about the Tower in his blood as he died or something, but that would be...well, kind of stupid.
John Mann
608. jcmnyu
@ 605 Moteth

Please don't reference, alude to, comment on, or generally acknowledge information from anything in ToM (prologue, Chapter 1, 8 and any other that may be released) on this page. There is a whole other page for spoilers. Thanks.
Daniel Goss
609. Beren
I'm only re-posting this because I spent so much time on it and the site balefiring it makes me sad. Well, that and it was still in my text editor in another window.

Completely serious, not a joke, dark, worst-case-scenario predictions for how the world and characters in it stands at the end of the series.

Rand: Dead. Turns out that "To live you must die" means just that. To live again, you must die. The world mourns, the Harem is inconsolable.

Matt: Married to the empress, but unable to resolve his feelings for the Seanchan empire as a whole. We know that he survives (due to the plans for outrigger novels) but he could very well end up on the run from his wife if she refuses to make radical changes to the empire's policies, and he refuses to be part of the empire unless she does.

Perrin. Alive. At the last battle, he is forced to succumb to the wolf inside of him in order to pull all of the wolves in this world and in tel'aran'rhiod into the last battle. The final straw that causes him to let go is when he sees his wife's bodyguards overrun by an unstoppable wave of Trollocs. The irony is that Faile actually survives, and Perrin ends up locked in a cage in the rear of a palace in Saldea, where Queen Zarine Bashere occasionally goes to weep over her lost husband.

Nynaeve. Alive. She takes a side-trip to the White Tower to beat Lan's bond out of Myrelle, and has just managed to complete the weave for passing the bond when she feels a stab of unbelievable pain through the bond. It turns out the Last Battle has started earlier than planned, and Lan's forces just met up with a trio of Myrddraal who have disabled him and are disassembling him to better fit into a cookpot while he's still alive.

Egwene. Alive, but burned out. Egwene leads every sister, accepted, novice, and related channelers into the last battle to face the dreadlords of the Black Tower. Furious fighting involving every Angreal and Sa'angreal with full circles attached to each one makes quick work of some of the dreadlords, but nobody anticipates the myriad sisters of the Black Ajah who join with the male dreadlords to bring their circles well beyond thirteen . . . and they have angreal of their own. Egwene draws too much, even managing to override the built-in safeguards of an angreal and a circle. She manages to defeat the circle of dreadlords, but at terrible cost to her and the rest of the women in the circle she is leading.

-Beren (again)
LewsTherin
610. Moteth
Interesting stuff dmhman 749, thanks for the read- I always wondered why Cyn had less power than Lanfear. I'll still dare to dream :)

My pardon Jcmnyu, I read the idea earlier, further up the page and couldnt stop thinking on it. The fact it was a spoiler reference escaped me.
T C
611. Freelancer
And here I really thought the "Lanfear had an angreal", theory had died off as it should have. When one channeling woman senses another's strength, it is independent of actually channeling. An angreal doesn't change the innate strength which would be sensed passively by another channeler. While it is reasonable to believe that Lanfear made a habit of suppressing the strength others sensed in her, that could hardly have been true thoughout all of the meetings with the other forsaken. Graendal, Mesaana & Moghedien would have known the sense of her full strength.

As a bit of circumstantial evidence to toss out there, we have Lanfear's internal POV when she encounters Alivia during the cleansing. She is shocked that Alivia is stronger than she was before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. She doesn't think to herself, "before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn took my silver belt" (or whatever device was supposedly enhancing her).

Overall, the theory doesn't scan.
Daniel Hanley
612. dmhman749
The fact that women sensing Lanfear felt less power than they saw when she actually channeled is exactly why this theory came about...It is the only thing that explains it well (to me, at least). People have said in a lot of places that Lanfear was known to hide her true strength. In fact, it was one of the few things that Moiraine actually knew about her from the Age of Legends. There is no reason for Lanfear to have constantly made others feel like she is weaker than she actually was. But it makes perfect sense if Lanfear had an angreal all this time she told noone about. So everyone senses her true strength, then they see her channeling a little more. "So she was hiding her actual strength!" And thus that particular legend.

Keep in mind that it is possible to make other women feel less power than you actually have, which is what everyone would assume that Lanfear was doing, since they saw her regularly channeling with a little bit more power