Feb 19 2010 3:06pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: A Crown of Swords, Part 13

Amicitia! Romanorum! Paganus! Exspectata ut Rota Tempus Relego!

Is est quis venio ut vos operor non usus memoria antiquus ut reddo mortuus lingua vobis. Timeo. Timeo valde.

Aaaand now that everyone who’s ever even remotely studied Latin has been propelled into an apoplectic fit, I’ll stop. I’ll cackle with glee, but I’ll stop. Mwhahaha.

Today’s post covers Chapter 21 of A Crown of Swords, in which I probably violate copyright law, or maybe fair use law, or at least the boundaries of good taste. But It Had To Be Done. Because I said so, that’s why!

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of information regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And now, uh, tempus fugit! Tabula rasa! Ex post facto! Et tu, Brute! And other stuff! Read on!

Chapter 21: Swovan Night


What Happens
As Ebou Dar revelers dart merrily through the otherwise empty streets, Mat crouches in an alley, and listens to make sure the two wounded beggars are not coming back. He bends to examine the third, wiping his dagger clean on the dead man’s shirt; he notes the large jute sack the man had had with him, and thinks they were awfully optimistic about what they would be able to steal from him. He is momentarily distracted when someone sets off fireworks over the city, watching them in wonder.

Plainly someone with coin had made a purchase for Swovan Night. He wished he knew who. An Illuminator who would sell nightflowers would sell more than that.

He walks back to the Wandering Woman, trying not to think about the odds of being attacked by robbers twice in one day, even in Ebou Dar. The common room of the inn is full of dancing patrons, and Mat pauses to admire some of the women dancing, then snags Caira to order supper for his room. To his surprise, Caira sniffs angrily at him, and says she doesn’t know why he wants gilded fish when he already has “a gilded woman” waiting for him in his room, and flounces off. He stares after her, uneasy, but reasons that the Darkfriend woman could not have seen him at the racetrack, and certainly couldn’t be called “gilded” anyway. Dice drumming in his head, he goes upstairs and, outside his door, momentarily thinks of pulling a knife, but remembers another woman he’d killed that way, and sighs and goes in unarmed. Inside he finds the Hunter Elayne had made her Warder, examining his bow.

“If this is about Olver,” he began, and suddenly a twist of memory unfolded, a mist thinned over one day, one hour in his life.

There was no hope, with Seanchan to the west and Whitecloaks to the east, no hope and only one chance, so he raised the curled Horn and blew, not really knowing what to expect. The sound came golden as the Horn, so sweet he did not know whether to laugh or cry. It echoed, and the earth and heavens seemed to sing. While that one pure note hung in the air, a fog began to rise, appearing from nowhere, thin wisps, thickening, billowing higher, until all was obscured as if clouds covered the land. And down the clouds they rode, as though down a mountainside, the dead heroes of legend, bound to be called back by the Horn of Valere. Artur Hawkwing himself led, tall and hook-nosed, and behind came the rest, little more than a hundred. So few, but all those the Wheel would spin out again and again to guide the Pattern, to make legend and myth. Mikel of the Pure Heart, and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side. Amaresu, with the Sword of the Sun glowing in her hands, and Paedrig, the golden-tongued peacemaker, and there, carrying the silver bow with which she never missed . . .

He pushed the door shut trying to lean against it. He felt dizzy, dazed. “You are she. Birgitte, for true. Burn my bones to ash, it’s impossible. How? How?”

The woman of legend gave a resigned sigh and propped his bow back in the corner next to his spear. “I was ripped out untimely, Hornsounder, cast out by Moghedien to die and saved by Elayne’s bonding.” She spoke slowly, studying him as if to be sure he understood. “I feared you might remember who I used to be.”

Still feeling hit between the eyes, he flung himself scowling into the armchair beside his table. Who she used to be, indeed. Fists on hips, she confronted him challengingly, no whit different from the Birgitte he had seen ride out of the sky. Even her clothes were the same, though this short coat was red and the wide trousers yellow. “Elayne and Nynaeve know and kept it from me, true? I weary of secrets, Birgitte, and they harbor secrets as a grain barn harbors rats. They’ve become Aes Sedai, eyes and hearts. Even Nynaeve is twice a stranger, now.”

“You have your own secrets.” Folding her arms under her breasts, she sat on the foot of his bed. The way she looked at him, you would have thought he was a tavern puzzle. “For one, you’ve not told them you blew the Horn of Valere. The smallest of your secrets from them, I think.”

Mat blinked. He had assumed they had told her. After all, she was Birgitte. “What secrets do I have? Those women know my toenails and dreams.” She was Birgitte. Of course. He leaned forward. “Make them see reason. You’re Birgitte Silverbow. You can make them do as you say. This city has a pit-trap at every crossing, and I fear the stakes grow sharper by the day. Make them come away before it’s too late.”

She laughed. Put a hand over her mouth and laughed! “You have the wrong end, Hornsounder. I do not command them. I am Elayne’s Warder. I obey.” Her smile became rueful. “Birgitte Silverbow. Faith of the Light, I’m not sure I still am that woman. So much of what I was and knew has faded like mist beneath the summer sun since my strange new birth. I’m no hero now, only another woman to make my way. And as for your secrets. What language do we speak, Hornsounder?”

He opened his mouth . . . and stopped, really hearing what she had just asked. Nosane iro gavane domorakoshi, Diynen’d’ma’purvene? Speak we what language, Sounder of the Horn? The hair on his neck tried to stand. “The old blood,” he said carefully. Not in the Old Tongue. “An Aes Sedai once told me the old blood runs strong in— What are you bloody well laughing at now?”

“You, Mat,” she managed while trying not to double over. At least she was not speaking the Old Tongue any more either. She knuckled a tear from the corner of her eye. “Some people speak a few words, a phrase or two, because of the old blood. Usually without understanding what they say, or not quite. But you . . . One sentence, you’re an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect. No, don’t worry. Your secret is safe with me.” She hesitated. “Is mine with you?”

He waved a hand, still too flabbergasted to be offended. “Do I look like my tongue flaps?” he muttered. Birgitte! In the flesh! “Burn me, I could use a drink.” Before that was out of his mouth he knew it was the wrong thing to say. Women never—

“That sounds the right notion to me,” she said. “I could use a pitcher of wine, myself. Blood and ashes, when I saw you’d recognized me, I nearly swallowed my tongue.”

He sat up straight as if he had been jerked, staring.

She met his gaze with a merry twinkle and a grin. “There’s enough noise in the common room, we could talk without being overheard. Besides, I wouldn’t mind sitting and looking a bit. Elayne preaches like a Tovan councilor if I ogle a man for longer than a heartbeat.”

He nodded before he thought. Other men’s memories told him Tovans were a stark and disapproving people, abstemious to the point of pain; at least they had been, a thousand years gone and more. He was not sure whether to laugh or groan. On the one hand, a chance to talk with Birgitte—Birgitte! he doubted he would ever get over the shock—but on the other, he doubted he would be able to hear the music downstairs for the noise of those dice rattling in his skull. She must be a key to it, somehow. A man with any brains would climb out the window right now. “A pitcher or two sounds fine to me,” he told her.

Nynaeve sits in their rooms in the Palace with Elayne, Aviendha, Thom, and Juilin, fretting. She thinks she would have liked to go to the ball, but knows that if she had she would only have been sitting and worrying anyway; she can’t imagine what is keeping Birgitte. Her weather sense tells her there is a storm on the way.

It had taken her some time to understand about the times she Listened to the Wind and seemed to hear lies. At least, she thought she understood. Another kind of storm was coming, not wind or rain. She had no proof, but she would eat her slippers if Mat Cauthon was not part of it somehow.

They sit for hours, waiting, and Nynaeve contemplates what Mat’s note had said about there being “nothing here but heat and flies,” and demands of Thom and Juilin if they are sure they didn’t tell Mat anything. Juilin protests their innocence, and Thom points out dryly that they could hardly have told Mat anything when Elayne and Nynaeve had told them almost nothing until tonight, and they should have sent him and Juilin to Mat instead. Nynaeve admits to herself that she hadn’t thought of that, but sniffs and tells Thom they would have just gone off carousing with Mat if she had. Elayne giggles and remarks that it is a good night for it, and Nynaeve frowns at her. Aviendha interjects that among the Aiel not even the closest clan or family member would protest at the killing of a Shadowrunner, and wants to know why Tylin does not kill Jaichim Carridin—or why they don’t. Thom explains that Tylin is a weak queen, and Carridin the representative of a power, one who by definition cannot be a Darkfriend. If she arrests him, there will be a Whitecloak legion in Ebou Dar in no time flat, and Tylin will find herself no more than a puppet of the Fortress of Light. Aviendha replies disgustedly that she hadn’t thought Tylin a coward.

“You have never faced something you could not fight, child,” he said gently, “something so strong your only choice is to flee or be consumed alive. Try to hold judgment on Tylin till you have.” For some reason, Aviendha’s face reddened. Normally, she hid her emotions so well her face was like stone.

“I know,” Elayne said suddenly. “We’ll find proof even Pedron Niall must accept.” She skipped back into the room. No, she danced. “We will disguise ourselves and follow him.”

She uses Illusion to change herself into a Domani woman, and Nynaeve leaps to her feet in exasperation. Thom and Juilin stare with dropped jaws as Elayne laughs and changes Aviendha into a Taraboner, and then, to Nynaeve’s utter horror, turns Nynaeve into a Sea Folk woman, complete with the total lack of blouse worn away from shore. She sees Thom and Juilin fighting grins, and shrieks at them to close their eyes, trying to cover herself. They obey, still laughing, and Nynaeve realizes she is angry enough to embrace saidar, which she does, and tries to slam a shield on Elayne. It doesn’t work, and Nynaeve demands to know what the hell is wrong with her, is she drunk? Elayne stares at her in shock, and then lets the Illusions go and answers angrily that no, she is not. At that moment, Birgitte stumbles into the suite unsteadily and grins at them all; she says they will be interested to hear what she says, but first—she goes into the bedroom and upends the water pitcher on her head, and reemerges dripping wet.

“Now my wits are clearer,” she said, settling into one of the ball-footed chairs with a sigh. “That young man has a hollow leg and a hole in the bottom of his foot. He even out-drank Beslan, and I was beginning to think wine was water to that lad.”

Dismayed, Elayne exclaims that Mat will corrupt “the boy.” Thom points out that Beslan is the same age as Elayne, which confuses her and Nynaeve both; what was his point? Elayne returns to Birgitte, glowering, and Nynaeve hurriedly kicks Thom and Juilin out; they leave with ill-concealed resentment. Birgitte doubts dryly that “nine feather dancers with a shipload of brandy” could corrupt Beslan, but Elayne is more interested in the fact that she still feels drunk, and that is not how the Warder bond is supposed to work. Birgitte shrugs and suggests that maybe it’s because Warders and Aes Sedai were always men and women before; maybe she and Elayne are too much alike. Nynaeve drags them back on topic, wanting to know if Mat is coming to the Palace in the morning or not. Birgitte answers that he might, and Nynaeve demands to know what that means. Birgitte says she doesn’t think he was serious about Elayne and Nynaeve coming to him on their hands and knees, and will settle for an apology and thanks. Nynaeve growls “Never,” and Elayne wants to know what for.

“The Stone of Tear,” Birgitte said, and Nynaeve’s head whipped around. The woman no longer sounded intoxicated at all. “He says he went into the Stone, him and Juilin, to free the pair of you from a dungeon you couldn’t escape on your own.” She shook her head slowly, in wonder. “I don’t know that I would have done that for anyone short of Gaidal. Not the Stone. He says you gave him a backhanded thanks and made him feel he ought to be grateful you didn’t kick him.”

It was true, in a way, but all distorted. There Mat had been with that mocking grin of his, saying he was there to pull their chestnuts off the fire or some such. Even then he had thought he could tell them what to do. “Only one of the Black sisters was on guard in the dungeon,” Nynaeve muttered, “and we had taken care of her.” True, they hadn’t yet been able to figure out how to open the door, shielded. “Be’lal wasn’t really interested in us, anyway—it was just to lure Rand. Moiraine may already have killed him, by then, for all we know.”

“The Black Ajah.” Birgitte’s voice was flatter than the floor tiles. “And one of the Forsaken. Mat never mentioned them. You owe him thanks on your knees, Elayne. Both of you do. The man deserves it. And Juilin, as well.”

Nynaeve declares that under no circumstances will she apologize to Mat Cauthon, but Aviendha tells Elayne gently that if what Birgitte says is true, then she and Nynaeve have toh toward Mat, which they have made worse by their actions since. Nynaeve retorts that she and Elayne are not Aiel, but Elayne nods and tells Aviendha she wants Aviendha to be proud of her, and asks what they must do. Aviendha replies that an apology is not enough to meet their toh, now. Nynaeve desperately reiterates that she will not apologize, but everyone ignores her except Birgitte, who grins at her. Nynaeve tries to throttle her braid.

So, if you were wondering which scene in the Wheel of Time is my absolute and total favorite in the entire series, look no further, for here it is.

In case it wasn’t obvious by the fact that I had to quote the entire thing.

Sorry, guys, but I just couldn’t bear to mutilate it. It is my favorite, and I heart it and adore it to itty bitty tiny little bits. It’s my Re-read and I’ll overquote if I want to! Nyah!

My paperback copy of ACOS not only falls open to this chapter naturally, but the spine is actually cracked and separated there, because I have probably re-read this one scene about a hundred times. At least a hundred times.

So why is this scene my favorite, you ask? Well, it’s a combination of factors, really, all of which combined to create a kind of perfect storm of Awesome for my particular Awesomeness triggers.

First and foremost, of course, is because the scene between Mat and Birgitte is a quintessential example of one of my favorite things in fantasy, what I have been calling the self-realization moment. And I’m actually sort of kicking myself, because in all this time doing this re-read and squeeing over moments like this, I have only just finally remembered that there is actually an existing term that much more wonderfully encapsulates what I’m trying to express with the half-assed phrase “self-realization moment,” and that is: paradigm shift.

Paradigm shift: a fundamental and irrevocable change in worldview. An elemental alteration of one’s perception of reality; the pivot point after which nothing is quite the same ever again. Could there possibly be a more exciting, disturbing, uplifting, or, or sf-nal concept? Not for my money. How did I not think of it before?

This scene was just it. Mat has a picture of Birgitte-the-random-Hunter/Warder, Birgitte has a picture of Mat-the-random-wastrel/ta’veren, and then he walks in and in one moment both their pictures of the other are changed forever, as they each realize the other is so much more than they originally believed. Paradigm shift. Awesome.

Not only was it a pivot point for the two of them personally, but it was also a turning point in the cold war between Mat and the Supergirls. I said earlier that I had more sympathy for Elayne and Nynaeve this time around than I had previously, but even so I still cheer and cheer that finally, someone on the other side is put in a position to realize Mat’s worth. And the results are immediate—and intensely gratifying.

And again we see the ongoing theme—after all the lies and evasions and discounting and disparaging, honesty/revelation/revealing of truths between (Lightside) characters is instantly rewarded, and rewarded well. And it’s such a frickin’ fresh breath of air, like, THANK YOU, JEEZ.

And, since the Elayne/Nynaeve/Mat/Ebou Dar storyline is really just about the central plotline of ACOS, this scene can be considered the turning point of the entire novel. You guys keep asking how I can like ACOS so much with Cadsuane blee and Sevanna bloo and only 10 days bleh, and I’m like, yeah, but first of all, it had this scene in it, and second of all, this scene caused just about everything else that happened after it (with a couple of exceptions, natch) to just keep getting awesomer. We have only just BEGUN to get to the awesome, you guys.

But we’re still talking about this scene! Aside from all the above, I love this scene because the way the reveal is orchestrated is just beautiful, and done in a way that completely captured my mechanics-of-story-telling fancy—in more ways than just the obvious.

At the time I first read this, I was a film student, and I am not kidding when I tell you I spent hours fantasizing about how I would commit this scene to film if I had the chance. I actually storyboarded the whole damn thing in my mind—where the cuts would happen, where the close-up reaction shots would fall, everything. I wanted to see this. I still do.

And you’re probably now saying, but Leigh, this scene is actually impossible to film the way it was written, because of the language thing. The trick Jordan pulled with concealing which language they were speaking until Birgitte drew Mat’s attention to it (for hint-dropping, diction-altering values of “concealing,” anyway) can only be done on paper. And since that’s what made the scene so awesome in the first place…

Ah, I reply, but I thought about this, young grasshopper! This is why I was so fascinated with the notion of filming it in the first place, because of the logistical dilemma of how to make the reveal as effective on screen as it is on paper.

There are two ways you can go, really. The first is to give up the element of surprise for the audience, but not Mat—have them both speaking in the Old Tongue in the whole scene, but make it obvious that Mat doesn’t know that’s what’s happening until Birgitte rubs his face in it. You lose the surprise, but not the suspense of the audience waiting for Mat to be surprised, if you see what I mean.

The problem here, obviously, is a linguistic one: I don’t know if Jordan ever fleshed out the Old Tongue to the extent necessary to actually render all the dialogue they speak here in it. Of course, even if he hadn’t, that can be fixed. If the Paramount people can manage to come up with an entire working lexicon for Klingon, for crying out loud, Old Tongue is totally doable.

The other way to do it is actually exactly the way it’s written: have them speak English through the scene, and then when Birgitte asks her fateful question, to immediately thereafter (well, after you pause for a reaction shot on Mat) cut to a flashback of her saying the line again, but in the Old Tongue. The inference to extend it to the rest of the conversation would be the same as it is on paper, really, and then you don’t have to go through all the bother of making your actors learn twenty lines of a made-up language.

(Look, I TOLD you, I spent hours thinking about this. I’m a geek, okay? Shut up.)

It totally works either way, in my opinion, but I honestly rather prefer the first way, because yet another reason I loved this scene so much is because I have a Thing for playing with languages in narrative. That whole stereotype about Americans not liking to read subtitles? SO never applied to me. I infinitely prefer when movies and television shows have characters who are speaking another language actually speak the other language, instead of just having it be “understood” that they are speaking German or Urdu or whatever.

(This was one thing I definitely gave Heroes kudos for. That series jumped the shark disgustingly fast, but at least when Hiro and Ando talked together, they actually spoke Japanese on screen. It’s kind of sad how much (undeserved) leeway I gave the series just for that one fact. And, it’s yet another argument for casting actors who are actually from the culture/nationality they are supposed to be portraying, since historically, making everyone speak English on American television/film was just as much to avoid having to deal with tin-eared American actors mangling another language as it was to protect American audiences from the horrors of readingOMG).

And all that aside, I prefer the first way for one very simple reason: seeing this scene actually spoken in the Old Tongue would be the frickin’ peak of awesome. Because sometimes I am a giant nerd.

A giant nerd who loves this scene, because in my opinion it is everything I signed up for in the first place with this sf thing, and more. Hug, love, squeeze, George, The End.

Whaddaya mean, “sometimes I am a giant nerd,” you say? Why I oughta… Well, actually, I oughta get the hell out of here, because wow I just talked for hundreds of years about two pages of text, and it is kind of three o’clock in the morning now. So sayonara, WOTers! Have fun in the comments, and see you next week!

Marcus W
1. toryx
Man, sometimes Mat can be so clueless. But hilarious at the same time.
Richard Fife
1. R.Fife
Definitely agree with you on the wonderful power of paradigm shift. Isn't that what any coming of age banks on? And WoT on a whole is chock full of people having to coming into their own quickly.

To the movie thing, I am curious, who did you /cast/ for the roles? Inquiring minds want to know.
2. trench
Yup, that's one of the best scenes in this book, and one of the best for a long time to come. But for my money the next chapter is pure T awesome because the wonder girls have to eat crow.

That's right chew it down Nynaeve and princess snip-nose chew it down!
Rikka Cordin
3. Rikka
Agreed. Easily one of my favorite scenes in the entire series. I wish it could be longer and crazier and .... I love Mat. @_@
Ron Garrison
4. Man-0-Manetheran
Ahh, yes! Mat Cauthon. What a wonderfully drawn character. So complex, and funny, and naive, and also not!

"paradigm shift" - I'm totally OK with not using the phrase. It has been so over-used by marketing people and the corporate world, it's almost lost its meaning.

And hooray for Avienda! And Elayne for wanting Avi's respect so much, she's willing to bend. From this moment on, this becomes one of the funniest books in the whole series. I too, love it!
Marcus W
6. toryx
Okay, that was weird. Not only am I seeing the same number applied to both me and R. Fife, but most of my post is missing.

Anyway, the first time around I was also saying that this was the chapter I've been waiting for because it is also one of my very favorites. I can't ever read it just once and frankly, I'm glad you posted so much of it, Leigh. It is truly an awesome scene that never gets old.

The pure satisfaction I get out of what happens here is incredible, for several reasons:

1. Finally, Mat finds someone he can be relatively relaxed with. Birgitte not only knows a part of his secret but she has no desire to push him on it. She accepts that there's more to him than meets the eye and appreciates that he has reason for keeping his secrets. Furthermore, it works the same way for her; she's had to deal with having all those memories of far ago times and peoples and now she actually has someone who can understand her when she slips and refers to something lost to the mists of time. It's awesome.

Not to mention that I truly dig a woman who not only enjoys a good drink but likes to ogle the crowd with me, and hearing her talk about it just makes her one of my favorite characters.

2. Finally, Mat gets some of the respect he's been long due for. I think even Aviendha treats him pretty well from here on out after hearing the story about the Stone rescue. The bit where Birgitte says that Mat hadn't even mentioned the black ajah and the Forsaken is just the whipped cream on top of the sundae of goodness.

3. When we're faced with novel after novel of people never freaking talking to each other, it's such a relief when a couple actually does sit down and chat things out. I've come to realize that the continual silence between characters in the WoT are what I like least about it; these rare occasions just don't happen enough. On the one hand, that makes moments like this chapter all the more awesome. On the other hand, it makes the other books where this never freaking happens all the more frustrating.

Okay, I'll shut up now. But I do want to add that I too really love seeing subtitles on the big screen. A lot. So your scene, Leigh, sounds great to me.
Lannis .
7. Lannis
Yes, excellent chapters!

And I believe this is where the dice rolling in Mat's head started to indicate less life-threatening occurrences and more life-changing ones... this is the point where he gets all bent out of shape because they don't stop, turns out it's Tylin? (I've been wrong before...)

With R.Fife @ 1 on the casting... whom did you have in mind?

(Erm... what number *are* you, R.Fife?'s going sideways again!)

Thanks again for the recap, Leigh... or, well... for typing it up... ;)
Megan Messinger
8. thumbelinablues
toryx AND R. Fife @ 1 -- It's not a bug, it's a feature! :-P Your comments are timestamped the same down to the second. I would call this a, well, first.
Jeff Weston
9. JWezy
I think I will vote "no" to a movie. Not that I don't like movies, and I respect that they have to alter the story to suit the medium. Oddly, books written from movies or TV tend to avoid this - they are typically written as if they were a script, and come out rather two-dimensional. But I digress. On the other hand, I have a great example for digression, Leigh.

No, I think the problem is with the overall story. Since the core theme is about sharing or holding back information, every line of dialog in the movie would have to be subtitled with what was not said (as is often done in the text). It would be extraordinarily difficult to figure out what was going on without it, though. Maybe that's why the books are so long - every line of dialog requires an internal disclaimer. LOTR is downright straightforward by contrast

And don't even think about the cast. I don't mean the principals (although there would be a good dozen "stars" and probably twice that many "featuring"s). No, I mean that every time an AS or SF or one of the Kin or an Aiel or a whatever came on screen I would be saying "who is that again?". And think of the cost of a cast that size!

No, I'm afraid that any visual retelling would have to cut so much that it really wouldn't be the same tale.

John Massey
10. subwoofer
This is the big one. Am starting to compose Russian Novel.

Er... did you see my post on the other thread? Ok, Ok, it was one of many. Could of been mixed up in the queue.

Birgit F
11. birgit
Mat's dice resemble Ny's storm sense. Both show that important events are coming. Mat feels personal turning points because he is ta'veren. Ny's Listening to the Wind has changed to something similar to a vague form of Foretelling.
Debbie Solomon
12. dsolo
I knew it! I was waiting to see if you confirmed this as your favorite scene. I love it too. I was so annoyed at the SGs dismissal of Mat that it was great to see them humbled. My absolute favorite part is when Birgitte says flatly that Mat never mentioned the Black Ajah and the Forsaken and Avienda tells them they have toh. Initially, Mat wasn't one of my favorites because he did some stupid things (poison dagger, anyone?), but my opinion of him changed when he overheard Rahvin and decided to go rescue Elayne and Nynaeve. I've become a bigger Mat fan as the series progressed.
Jeff Weston
13. JWezy
Hmm... Maybe subtitles could be used for the inner dialog bits? Seems clunky.

BTW, many years ago I went to see "Mr. Bean" in the movies in the Netherlands (I had a day off on a business trip). Let me say that any country where you can get beer with your popcorn in the movies is very civilized in my book.

Anyway, the movie was subtitled in Dutch. Interestingly, it turns out that you can read faster than you can speak, so the "natives" often got jokes well before I did. In fact, they sometimes laughed so loud that I never heard the punch line!
Rob Munnelly
14. RobMRobM
Subtle point I never picked up before.

“You have never faced something you could not fight, child,” he said gently, “something so strong your only choice is to flee or be consumed alive. Try to hold judgment on Tylin till you have.” For some reason, Aviendha’s face reddened. Normally, she hid her emotions so well her face was like stone.

Avi is embarassed because she recalled what she could not fight - her love for Rand. Interesting....
Bonnie Andrews
15. misfortuona
Leigh –thank you
Yes, totally agree. This is one of my all time favorites as well. Firstly it's got Mat. Sweet bumblingly-competent Mat. (I don’t care that bumblingly isn’t a word. It should be.) The whole world does shift for him here, and over the next few chapters that he realizes that women come in more than two kinds. (Those for having fun with, and those who want to stop you from having fun) Some, this one anyway, can actually be a friend.

Also something that happened this time for me, and I blame it totally on the past two weeks with she who will not be named.
I realized just how much of a bully Elayne is. Yes I remember someone saying Nyn + 200 years = Cads, but she never stood a chance of standing her ground against the tide of Elayne's wave of "We must fix what we've done wrong Near sister." I think the reason I didn't consider it was because she was first of all right, they did owe Mat an apology, and secondly the whole scene is so damned funny.

So Squee for the paradigm shift and new insights

Mis-giddy over Swovan night

Edit spelling
Jacy Clark
16. Amalisa
Oh, I do love "Swovan Night"!

Seriously, it's in the top five of my favorite scenes, too - the others being Nynaeve's Healing of Logain, Siuan and Leane and Nynaeve with the Malkieri jewel merchants. Also, Tuon completing the marriage ceremony (I can just see Mat snatching his hat off of his head, striding to her horse and taking the bridle in his hands. Be still my heart!) and, most recently, Egwene and Verin in TGS.

As for how to represent the language differences... what struck me when reading it the first time, and every time since, was the change in syntax. That was my clue to the "Old Tongue" reveal even before Birgitte asked the question. In a film representation, strengthen the emphasis on the syntax change with, I dunno, music or echo... or, for that exchange, have the camera moving around them while the background fades to a misty gray, then maybe nail it down with the flashback thingy and it's a done deal.

Also got a large charge out of Elayne getting drunk by proxy and the ensuing merriment.

Anyway... glad to be back - just in time for more good stuff in ACoS!
Ron Garrison
17. Man-0-Manetheran
The post sub refers to at #10 is definitely worth watching. I'm also in the camp that would prefer they not make the WoT into movies. But I do love casting the parts!

The video's creator says: "I started this when I was having trouble keeping the 53,000 characters straight in my head, so I started assigning actors to them, so my imagination would have a face for them." I like that.
Juan Avila
18. Cumadrin
i should have known. i'm with you in loving this chapter and THAT SCENE, Leigh. best in the book, imo maybe tops in the series. i remember the first time i read aCoS, from this point on during the Ebou Dar arc i was nearly perpetually laughing and chuckling 'awesome' at the page. i think the Supergirls interactions with Mat from here on, specifically the apology and then Mat pleading his case about Tylin to Elayne, and then offering the foxhead without prompting... well, just made me all warm and fuzzy for the rest of this book.

i was truly sad they had to be separated, actually. it was Elayne's ability to finally get some respect for Mat, and Nynaeve's Laugh Out Loud dialogue, that made this arc and book so enjoyable, and actually put Elayne and Nynaeve firmly in positive standing for me. i'm truly looking forward to ToM when Mat reaches Caemlyn and meets up with Elayne again before setting off towards Whitebridge (i assume, though hopefully Elayne will help him out and get a Windfinder to let him Travel)

so anyway, total aggreement Leigh. the Ebou Dar arc, which i liked overall, turns into an awesome roller-coaster from here and makes aCoS likewise probably my favorite book as well.
John Massey
19. subwoofer
So anyways, this was the reason I fell out of bed the other day... I read this chapter to refresh my memory for the upcoming post and shouted "finally". That in and of itself was not such a big deal, but I was reading in bed and my wife was asleep. Apparently her knee jerk reaction to any sudden sound is to kick her husband so hard he falls off the bed... Lord help me if one of the dogs plays with a squeeky toy in the dead of night.

Mat- this was the moment I was waiting for because of the ensuing scene in the sitting room area afterward. Birgitte calling out Elayne and Ny for not being grateful to Mat for springing them from the Stone. Avi pointing out to Elayne what a donkey she is in the subtle Aiel way. Ny saying stuff and then spilling the beans on the BA, which Mat left out.

And I think the Elayne drunk and Ny as a topless Sea Folk was perfect too. Thom's comments to Avi were spot on too. And her helplessness with how she feels about Rand. Awwww.

Too perfect. And this leads in to the Elayne quest for pithy language with Mat and then finding Mat to be an "excellent subject" or some such. Ahhhhhh Ebou Dar...

Thomas Keith
20. insectoid
So much for a bug-free post...

I mean, hi, Leigh! It's been a long week:) Besides going partially insane, we've been pushing for a shiny new General Discussion thread.

Swovan Night: Yes, I agree that this is one of the best chapters in the book. Yay Mat!

Megan @8: Heh.

Bonnie Andrews
21. misfortuona
I left you a gift on 12. Hade it mostly done when this one came up.

Alex Johns
22. almuric
My favorite scene has always been in the first book. Moiraine telling the Emond's Fielders about Aemon. Have re-read that scene dozens of times.

This is a good one, though. But immediately followed by Elayne and Nynaeve being their usual arrogant selves. As far as I'm concerned they do not get their comeuppances nearly often enough. I guess it's important to show that even the 'good guys' have flaws, but there's no excuse for them being so annoyingly self-absorbed. Do they really have to think they're smarter and better than everyone? Who in the world is like that?

If I had been in the room I would have stormed out, found Mat, knocked him over the head, stolen his foxhead medallion, marched back and paddled both of them so they couldn't sit for a week. (Then, of course, I would have to give the medallion back, apologize to Mat, and make sure neither Elayne or Nynaeve ever saw me again. But it would have been worth it.)
23. Qtip the Sixth
Was it my imagination or did Aviendha have a flashback to a certain unplanned trip to Seanchan's coast when Thom berated her for not understanding a danger you could either "run from or be consumed alive by", which caused her momentary loss of composure. I like it when she acts human!
John Massey
24. subwoofer
@22Al- Bwahahahahaha! I call "shotgun" on that trip. I'll bring the umbrella!

Ron Garrison
25. Man-0-Manetheran
"Dismayed, Elayne exclaims that Mat will corrupt 'the boy.' Thom points out that Beslan is the same age as Elayne, which confuses her and Nynaeve both; what was his point?"

Referring to males as "boys" seems to be a widespread AS trait - not just a habit of the one we all love...
26. Gentleman Farmer
@25 Man-o-Manetheren

But somehow, when Cadsuane does it, I have a perfect image of Foghorn Leghorn talking to the chickenhawk:

"Phaw. Boy! I say Boy! That ain't the way to be doing that at all."

Every time she calls Rand "boy" I think of a Foghorn Leghorn voice.
Juan Avila
27. Cumadrin
on the idea of WoT movies:

i'm sure every fan has these thoughts. i fall under the category of 'imagining it is awesome, but i also only half hope it is ever done, as no movie could do WoT justice portraying what RJ got through to me with words.'

i always reason it out by thinking of the Matrix. if i could jack-in to a computer and create WoT, that'd be great. but anything less, no matter how good, will fall short.

the best compromise i can come up with for if it were done, is i would demand that since you can't do a perfect portrayal of everything, the movie shouldn't try to portray EVERYTHING, especially things that would have to be 'tweaked.' i'd rather have things omitted than done poorly or altered. i've always imagined channeling (to the channelers' eyes) would be hard, as well as Perrin's communication with the wolves. this is not even touching upon the stuff we know only through our vantage in PoV characters' heads.
28. JanDSedai
Yeah! It's Friday!

Not sure what to comment on. Of course, this is a great scene! And yes, we love Mat, paradigm shift or not! And a great set-up for the next few chapters.

Re: subtitles: Because of a substantial hearing loss, I always use closed-captions or subtitles when watching TV or movies. Sometimes I will see action movies in the theater, but I will avoid anything plot-driven or that relies on conversation. So yes, sometimes the captions will telegragh the joke.

I also vote for the General Discussion Thread. Maybe if we get it, Sub will behave himself!
Bonnie Andrews
29. misfortuona
Somehow I always really feel Mat's regret when he says this line.

“Elayne and Nynaeve know and kept it from me, true? I weary of secrets, Birgitte, and they harbor secrets as a grain barn harbors rats. They’ve become Aes Sedai, eyes and hearts. Even Nynaeve is twice a stranger, now.”

Each of them are so surprised to hear that the other has kept his/her secrets and why? As far as I can tell it's only because it takes so long for them to really see the people their friends have become rather than the ones they used to be.

Now I know that we all get all over these people for the lack of trust, but really think about the people you've known for a long time.
It's tough sometimes to look at your buddy the lawyer standing in a court room and not see the same guy who once sat on a burning sofa to see how close he could time his escape to when the flames came through. (Hypothetically of course) Sometimes it actually takes someone else (Birgitte in Mat’s case) to point out that they just might have changed a little.

Gent@26 Damn now there's a picture that I doubt will leave for a while.

Bonnie Andrews
30. misfortuona
ROFLMAO, Sub? Bahaaaahaaa, choke, chortle, bwaaaahaaha.

Mis- Ooooo I gotta go pee.
Steven Pattingale
31. Pattingale
Awesome chapter, great recap. Leigh if you tape two 10c coins to your transmission when you want to you can shift your paradigms.

Marcus W
32. toryx
thumbelinablues @ 8:

That's awesome! Talk about perfect timing.
I guess it's no longer true that there can BE only ONE. :)

JWezy @ 9:

I'm with you and the others who don't want to see it made into the film. But I also have the tendency to pick favorite scenes and try to imagine how they'd look on stage with the right direction. I do that far more often than I think about actors who'd fit a particular role, actually.

Amalisa @ 16:

As for how to represent the language differences... what struck me when reading it the first time, and every time since, was the change in syntax. That was my clue to the "Old Tongue" reveal even before Birgitte asked the question.

I caught that the first time reading it too and I thought it was really well done. If I recall correctly, it's something RJ does pretty regularly when someone slips into the Old Tongue. It definitely stands out when Mat's the one who is speaking.

Man-o @ 25:

Referring to males as "boys" seems to be a widespread AS trait - not just a habit of the one we all love...

Too bad evidence suggests that this is one bad habit no one ever grows out of...

Farmer @ 26:

Foghorn Leghorn for Cadsuane? Awesome, I love it.

JanDSedai @ 28:

I'm the same way with the hearing loss and close-captions. Have you ever tried the rear-window captioning system at the theater? It's rare and they pick the worst movies to present with it sometimes but it's a working option until they figure out something better.
34. Lsana
It seems almost redundant at this point to say that the scene with Mat and Birgitte is my favorite too, but what the heck. I love their interactions and wish we had seen more of them. Not only are they completely honest with each other here, but they are completely accepting of each other and each other's needs. I was going to say that I think it is the best interaction between a male and female character in the entire series, but I actually think that it may be the best interaction between any two characters period.

Aside from the wonderful that is that scene, Nynaeve's "metaphorical storm" sense doesn't quite work for me. We were told earlier that "listening to the wind" involved using air and water weaves to be able to sense what those elements were doing, and I don't see why they would work on something that isn't related to the weather. I liked my prior interpretation better, where Ny's sense is malfunctioning due to the DO's touch. Of course, I guess that just because Ny believes she's sensing metaphorical storms doesn't mean it's so...

And actually, assuming that Ny is right and she is sensing a metaphorical storm, what is it? Whatever it is must be occurring during this chapter, because she refers to the storm in the present tense. But there doesn't seem to be anything going on that matches her description.
Ron Garrison
35. Man-0-Manetheran
Gentleman Farmer @ 26:
Would you believe I also love Foghorn Leghorn, boy? Ah do! Ah say, I DO!

I even know a bit about the character. Foghorn Leghorn was actually a reworking of a very popular radio character from The Fred Allen Show. (Yes, that show is even older than us old-timers!) If you ever have the opportunity to hear a recording, you will definitely recognize Senator Claghorn. The Wiki link has some of his jokes as well as history.
John Massey
36. subwoofer
Sub behave?

I'm innocentInnocent I tell you.

John Massey
37. subwoofer
A couple of other things this chapter does-

First, it recalls the awesome moment when Mat first sounded the Horn. Man, just the flash back gives me goose bumps. That was such a powerful scene, this chapter referring to it makes it kick butt even more. And the way Mat accesses that is even more cool.

On a side note, is this a Mat memory before the Finn plugged his head with gobbly gook? If so, I think it is the first true recall that Mat ever has without dead-men memories getting in the way.

Second thing, before all the Daughter of the Nine Moons business came about, I actually entertained the notion that Birgitte would be good for Mat- er as a couple. She is ripped from the pattern and is GC-less, and Mat, well, he is destined to become a Hero of the Horn himself. The way the two relate to each other from this point on, is a basis for a strong relationship. As some people have stated so eloquently, this is by far the most real and sincere relationship in the WoT series. Honest and open dialog, how refreshing.

But then the Tuon thing and then I came to my senses.

Thirdly, I am very interested in a Mat/Elayne/Birgitte reunion. Mat with his ever growing army, now an Emperor, Birgitte, Captain of the Guards/ Captain of Cool, and Elayne, meeting at the very least, an equal in all sense of the word. Oh to be a fly on that wall.

Marcus W
38. toryx
Lsana @ 34:

I've always interpreted the storm that Nynaeve is sensing is the coming attack by the Seanchan. It's still a little ways off, but that was definitely one hell of a storm.
39. Robss
Great read today.

I wanted to wait until Monday to read it but couldn't wait.

*Twitch* (already)
Birgit F
40. birgit
And actually, assuming that Ny is right and she is sensing a metaphorical storm, what is it? Whatever it is must be occurring during this chapter, because she refers to the storm in the present tense. But there doesn't seem to be anything going on that matches her description.

Why does it have to be in this chapter? For the characters there are no chapters.

Nosane iro gavane domorakoshi, Diynen’d’ma’purvene? Speak we what language, Sounder of the Horn?

The sequence of the words has been rearranged a bit, but the "of the" construction is still very English. It would be expressed differently in other languages.
Jason Denzel
41. JasonDenzel
Puts director's hat on

Both of your approaches to the scene are great, Leigh. You've spent more time than all of us combined thinking of how to do this. Here's a third idea, which is a variation on the first.

What if the scene starts out in English, and Mat and Birgitte are going at it pretty strong. At one particular moment where the discussion is intense, Birgitte switches to the Old Tongue. (Perhaps with her line, "The smallest of your secrets from them, I think.”) Mat replies in the OT, without missing a beat. They finish the conversation that way, until Birgitte points out to him what he's been doing for half the scene.

This approach reveals a little more how Mat unconsciously has this skill / memory, and allows for both the audience and Mat himself to be shocked by the change; albeit at different times.

Eh? Eh?
Barry T
42. blindillusion
Lsana, I'll agree with Toryx and Birgit. The coming storm is the Seanchan and Nynaeve is sensing something that happens just a few weeks later, not chapters.

Also, I've always read this sense as something of a Talent. Foretelling without the words, as it were.

edit: Oh yeah...The Post: This would be another scene of Materrific Proportions that I just LOVE. I too wish we could have seen more of these two together. Hopefully such will come in ToM.
James Jones
43. jamesedjones
I'm a firm believer in allowing the audience to "see" the book. Change the accent and speech pattern, and let everyone get the reveal. Birgitte's words would be spoken in the audience's language, but would then echo in Mat's head in the old tongue as we all enjoyed the look on his face.

But, yeah, one of the best all time scenes in any book or series.
44. Alfvaen
I still hold to the conviction that a 50-odd chapter book should not be done as a movie. Hell, Harry Potter books 3+ shouldn't have been done as movies. Something that long requires a longer film form, viz. the TV series. Maybe if the George R.R. Martin thing does well, there will be other opportunities...

As far as internal monologue goes, there are several TV series that use voiceovers to good effect, from "Scrubs" to "Veronica Mars", "Desperate Housewives", "How I Met Your Mother", and "Pushing Daisies". The third-person omniscient of the latter would be particularly good at doing the beginning of Chapter One. If, say, a Nynaeve chapter/episode was done with Nynaeve having a first-person voiceover, then that would probably work just fine.

Channeling effects--from the channeler's point of view, they could be done with CGI. But when it was Rand's POV, the saidar effects would be invisible, perhaps?

Okay, if I become a billionaire or the ruler of an alternate universe, I am totally doing this.
45. Lsana
toryx, birgit, blindillusion,

Nynaeve describes the storm in the present tense. In most of her other "storm is coming" discussions, she always phrases it like that: a storm is coming. Here, though, she seems to be describing a storm that is happening as we speak, rain currently streaming down the windows, lightning currently flashing. The Seanchan invasion is still a ways off, and presumably shouldn't affect her storm sense this way. She ought to sense that as a storm that's on its way.

Maybe I'm being particularly nitpicky. But we have to pick some nits. We can't get a 500+ post thread based on how awesome we all find Mat/Birgitte.
Tricia Irish
46. Tektonica
So glad this is your favorite scene, Leigh, as it is certainly one of mine, being a rabid Mat fan. Seems I have some company here! Ah, so much to comment on, where to begin.

I guess I hope these really never see cinematic light. I just don't think they could possibly be complete in any way. The LOTR film was pretty darn good, but left out so much, and WOT is much more complex. I'll play this movie in my head, please.

That said, I LOVE this scene.

Like several above, I too had hopes that Mat and Birgitte would become an item, as their relationship was so genuine and open and they actually TALKED and were friends! Too bad Mat is too cute for her. And then there is that other woman......

The first time I read this chapter, I thought I remembered Mat and Birgitte's conversation from the common room as they got drunk! Such was the power of the scene at the Inn. (Said conversation has since been deleted from my book?) Their moment of revelation of each other and acknowledgement of their importance and hidden attributes was so very cool and Rare in this series.

Also loved Birgitte and Avi setting Elayne and Nynaeve to rights about their debt to, and toh to Mat! Loved the Elayne's contact drunk, dressing the ladies so provocatively. Loved Avi's embarrassment about not being able to resist her love for Rand. Yeah, paradigms shifting all over the place!

Generally, I loved most of the Ebou Dar stuff.

Gentleman@26: ROFLOL. Ah, do say, Boy!
Foghorn Leghorn = Cads!!! Perfect.
Debbie Solomon
47. dsolo
Have to agree with all the movie comments. In order to do the series justice, all 25 movies would have to be shot simultaneously in New Zealand and the population would double based on the influx of actors alone. Guess I'll have to stick to visualizing it in my head.

@16 Amalisa - good scenes

@22 Almuric - I checked out the EoW audiobook, and when they got to this scene, I wept for Manetheren. It was more powerful hearing it spoken.

My other favorite scene is the defense of Emond's field, starting with Perrin writing the letter to Faile. She can be annoying, but I have never been a Faile hater (although didn't love the plotline that wouldn't die). It was very easy to picture the terrified, but determined villagers gathered with any available weapon, and the Tinkers holding the babies. It was reminiscent of the battle for Helm's Deep in LOTR, but without the benefit of big stone walls between you and the scary monsters that want to eat you. I also loved how RJ put the women on the battlelines, instead of having them cowering away somewhere. It gave you a real sense of the "stubbornness" of Two Rivers folk. But, I digress. Imagine getting carried away on a WoT discussion board.
48. MasterAlThor
Alright it's time. I tossing in my chips to pay my debt. I was wrong on the chapter that Leigh loved.

Now for the realness. I have to say that this is my favorite chapter with Mat in it, by a long shot. I love how he comes to, what did Leigh call it, his paradigm shift. Yeah Brigette has one too, but I'm all in on the main characters.

Let me tell you from experience, it is good to have a female friend who thinks like a guy. I have one and call her my little sister. She is now preggo and about to be a mom, but when I need to just be myself I just go and hang with her.

She is not all girlie-girl and when we were both single we could go to the bar watch football and comment about the other patrons all day. We had our "Berelain/Mat moment" long ago.

It is absolutely the coolest to have a female friend like that.

Now for the second half. As you all should know by now I am a Nyn hater. She burns my ass everytime she is on screen. I know that a lot of you love her, and that's cool, but I can't stand her. She has so many character flaws and you have read them all so I don't need to go on about it.

Her steadfast refusal to apologize to Mat even when everyone else shows her that "you know your wrong". Mat didn't lord anything over them and he could have. He truly wants them to be ok. See this is what makes Mat the shit. Mat, like most of the guys I know, will stand up for the people they know and for the girl of their guy friends. Let me brake this down. I will go above and beyond for my friends, but I will do the same thing for their significant others, because of who they are dating/married to.

Mat does this because he is MOA.

Now back to the supergirls. Elayne gets "it", cause as soon as Brigette breaks it down and Avi says "Lucy!!! You got some splainnin to do" she comes to her senses. My opinion of Elayne changed at this moment. Nyn was dragged kicking and screaming the whole way and still gave a backhanding apology. Which was no apology at all. She should have just stayed at the palace and sent a note.

Hang on I am going to have a headdesk moment....


Ok, I might be a little better. Agghhhhh. I can't stand her. This is one of the myriad of reasons why.

Believe me when I say I can partially understand why people like her. I can't, no matter what she does, she shoots herself in the foot when dealing with any man besides Lan. I don't like men bashing. And Nyn can't help herself. Yeah she has moments when she realizes how much of a dolt she is, but not when it comes to men. And everyone lets her get away with it.

Ok, ok. I am done before I run out of ink.

Bridget Sullivan
49. Ellid
I'm not so sure about the language-flipping thing working only in a book. I recall that relatively tame Melanie Griffth movie Shining Through (intrepid young WWII-era American Jewish secretary being forced to go undercover for the CIA into the household of a high Nazi officer and they fall in luv!) had something similar.

The entire movie is told as a flashback, with the elderly Griffith character telling a report her escapades and there is a voice-over from Griffith through several scenes - at one point she gets interrupted by the reporter, telling her she lapsed into German, and the character apologizes and says she "remembers it in German."

Something like could happen in our hypothetical WOT movie cycle.
Thomas Keith
50. insectoid
GF @26: Oh, that's just awful ;) "You gotta be, ah say you gotta be respectful, boy--respectful, that is!" ;D

Jason @41: That would actually be pretty good!

Michael Maxwell
51. pike747
A very good scene. Mat is my favorite male character in the WOT. He and Ms. Silverbow really do have much in common, probably more than any other pair in the series. Far too much for them to make a good couple IMO.
You are all very cinematic and all too quotable. I postulate that this movie has been playing in many of our collective minds for quite some time. It is probably impossible to turn it into a film or television series. Doing a scene here or there especially an excellent character driven scene like Our host describes would be a fun and challenging exercise. When I read or re-read a WOT novel I cannot seem to escape a certain scene transition technique in my mind movie. I really wish I had the artistic skills to create just one of these It is usually something like this. For some reason I usually get a Siuan Sanche vibe.
As we transition from the Amyrilin's study to the next scene a real-life fisherman and his daughter are in a boat in the Finger's of the Dragon. He is in the act of casting a net. As the net spreads out and falls towards the water, the look of everything changes to that of a woven tapestry and the moment becomes frozen in said tapestry. The camera pulls back and we see a small portion of a very large tapestry of Rand land.
It is so real and vivid in my minds eye that I can't believe that I have not seen this "movie".
Hats off to RJ and to any writer that can do this. I have long noticed the difference between myself and people who say they do not enjoy reading is this ability to visualize the written word.
Barry T
52. blindillusion
Lsana, but in that same scene she also talks about it as a coming storm.

Another kind of storm was coming.
aCoS: Swovan Night.

She's felt this before as well...the coming storm that should have been raging at that moment.

From tGH: The Dragon Reborn:
There was a storm coming. Nynaeve felt it. A big storm, worse than she had ever seen....

This time, though, something was wrong. Outside, the morning sun was a golden ball in a clear blue sky, and birds sang in the gardens, but that was not it. There would have been nothing to listening to the wind if she could not foretell the weather before the signs were visible. There was something wrong with the feeling this time, something not quite the way it usually was. The storm felt distant, too far off for her to feel at all. Yet it felt as if the sky above should have been pouring down rain, and snow, and hail, all at the same time, with winds howling to shake the stones of the keep. And she could feel the good weather, too, lasting for days yet, but that was muted under the other.
Alice Arneson
53. Wetlandernw
Yup, it's a gooder. I really like the flashback to Falme; this time we get Mat's POV, which is extra-cool because he has so few Memories of Awesome of his own - this was just him and his little ta'veren self blowing the Horn, not someone else's borrowed memories. And of course, the flashback is to a moment which is very cool in its own right. Ahhhhhh. I love the relaxation that comes (at least in my perception) when they are both honest with themselves, as well as with each other. Keeping secrets is hard work, sometimes, and it can be nice to just let it go.

I don't really see the SG "we must apologize" as comeuppance, so much; to me it's more like looking into a good mirror, when all you'd had before was a dull piece of metal or some cloudy glass. It's a self-realization moment, or a paradigm shift (on a smaller scale) for Elayne and Nynaeve, to recognize and admit (to themselves, primarily), that Mat really had risked a great deal (more than his life, even, with a Forsaken in the picture) for them, and they were so wrapped up in their BA-hunt that they essentially hadn't noticed. I've always loved Elayne's reaction to the "mirror" - "I did that wrong, so now I have to fix it. Hmm. What do I need to do?" It's not like she changes her whole personality, or anything - growing up takes time, even for a princess - but IIRC she really doesn't go back to treating Mat like an annoying little brother after this. As a discrete lesson, it's a good thing. Nynaeve.... well, Nynaeve has more realizing to do. Her attitude toward Mat is tied in to so many other things that I think it's harder for her. (And there's that little detail: no matter how much realizing you do, and how much you admit someone else is an adult now, you simply can't entirely forget that you babysat them not so many years ago. That'll take a few years to fade a bit more...)

I'm going to take a page from someone else's book, somewhere in the last couple of weeks. I really feel bad for people who are so angered by a character that they can't even read about her (it's mostly "her") without their blood pressure going up. I know it's part of getting so deep into a book that the characters feel real, but there's just so much to enjoy! I confess I do like Nynaeve, even though I can see her flaws and faults quite clearly. I think I understand her too well to hold them against her. Not that I don't want to slap her upside the head sometimes, but that's true of most people, including (especially?) my closest friends.
Tricia Irish
54. Tektonica

I felt exactly like you do about Nynaeve until the Cleansing and the last book. Her total defensiveness about herself manifests itself in the most irritating ways; always having to be right, being a control freak, mothering everybody, bossy, self-involved. She can't see anyone else's point of view. And she's smart and powerful to boot, but frustrated at her own lack of control over her channeling ( due to said controlling nature). All that braid tugging and anger drove me around the bend!

Even though it's obvious that she's very ya' think?....she's was still insufferable. I know she is supposed to be gorgeous and was given the Wisdom duties at a very young age, but in her efforts to garner respect, acting so adult and all, she just looks so silly. I am beginning to see her as hilarious in her obtuseness about herself.

She sure isn't good with men, as you pointed out. If I were a guy, (hey, even as a girl) I'd run pretty fast in the opposite direction. I think this toughness with men stems from her desire to be respected as intelligent, which is often times difficult for a beatuiful woman.

She does have a good heart and her affection for her fellow EFers is genuine, if misguided, and she does love to dance. She has proved herself very brave, true and loyal to Rand and Team Light, at the cleansing, with Lan, and to Rand in the last book. She's calming down a lot now that she has control over her channelling and is married.

I can't believe I just defended Nynaeve. I really used to loathe her....much like I do She Who Shall Remain Nameless.....but I get a good chuckle out of her now. Try it on for size, and be glad you dodged that bullet!
Barry T
55. blindillusion
Hmm, such questioning of Nynaeve's dealings with others, especially men...but...well, let's not forget she was orphaned at 14...and is then apprenticed at that age as well.

Also...she was raised more as a boy than a it is really any surprise she doesn't really know how to deal with others. Seems she was raised in two worlds and is finding conflict with each.
Tricia Irish
56. Tektonica
You know, I was wondering about her background. I can't remember a thing.
Certainly no mention of family. Fill me in, or where can I find this info?
57. MasterAlThor
I'll take my slap upside the head if that means I fall into the good friend (at least on this site) catagory.

You hit the nail on the head. Being given such a responsiblility at such a young age has robbed her of her ablility to grow up.

I totally get why people like her. I just can't bring myself to. And I read every scene with her in it because I am looking for two things.
1. The moment when she goes from being Aaaacccckkk Nynaeve to Oooooohhhhh Nynaeve
2. To see if she gets smacked down cause of something stupid she did.

Now that second one might get me called sexist, but I don't really see it that way. When any of the superfriends do something stupid I relish in the fact that they get what is coming to them. But I enjoy it a little more when it is Nynaeve.

Really I guess she is like the older sister I've never had, but imagined what she would be like. I actually have older female cousins who used to act like her somewhat.

Ron Garrison
58. Man-0-Manetheran
OK, OK. We are such a polite and civil group. In the interest of harmonious relations - esp. between people whom I usually agree with (Tek) but differ on Cadsuane, I present the following photo:

I love the idea of Dame Judi Dench as Cadsuane, but Gentleman Farmer's comment about Foghorn Leghorn made me laugh out loud. So, I hereby abandon Bea Arthur (good thing, 'cause she's dead), Jack Nicolson and the other great suggestions. I shall from this day forth picture Dame Judi saying in her best Foghorn Leghorn accent: "Boy! Ah say boy. Yur doin' it all wrong! Ya hea me? Wrong!"
59. mattyh
re: nynaeve's storm sense

perhaps the 'present tense' storm nynaeve is sensing in this chapter refers to the seanchan invasion of amador which happened shortly before their invasion of ebou dar.
Tricia Irish
60. Tektonica
Blind@55 and Everyone:

I would be very curious to know how many women on this site were raised "more as boys than girls", as you said Nynaeve was. I know I was a tomboy...the only girl in a neighborhood of boys....and I am the only woman I know (other than here in Tor World) that reads Fantasy/SciFi. I've often wondered if there was a relationship there. Ummmmm.....

Thoughts anyone? Poll?
61. MasterAlThor
Rolling on the floor.....breathe.....laughing....breathe again....making my wife and kids....breathe....wonder if dad has lost it.

Tricia Irish
62. Tektonica

You are toooooooo funny!!! ROFLOL.
And thank you for the olive branch re:"SWMNBN". Where did you find a picture with the umbrella hair thingy?
Too much. I vote for this picture as the focal point artwork in the bunker!
With caption, of course! Ah, say, Boy!
Ron Garrison
63. Man-0-Manetheran
Tek - I added the P-Net with Photoshop. And thanks!
Tshombe Knight
64. mrdrn
I to like this scene because of how Brig and Mat become fast friends. If you look at the begining of the scene when Mat is talking to thom merrilin he said he hoped he wouldn't have to fight her to get E and N out of their and back to Rand so when he finds out that Brig is sort of an ally he begins to in someways you can call it grow up.
65. Paten1
I don't think this series can be made into either a movie or live action TV series. I think it would have to be a a CGI/Anime style series. Even then, with 1 half hour episode a week, 52 weeks a year, it would take over a decade to finish it all.
Jay Dauro
66. J.Dauro
Lsana @45
... a ways off, ?

Around 16-18 days. So less than 2 weeks in Randland. And the Seanchan have to be on their way.
Barry T
67. blindillusion

Nynaeve in a nutshell.

As for her being raised as a boy...i.e., learning to track and hunt, she talks about this when she talks to Lan in tEotW.

You know...Lan goes all cateyes...err...well, as much as he's able to.
John Massey
70. subwoofer
& thanks for watching our backs with the Latin Leigh, no fear of strangers reading Latin on my monitor. No fear at all;) Classic JC opening.

You know like Ny or not, she is the only one suited for Lan. It takes a very strong woman to put up with such a strong(personality-wise) man. As my wife. She puts up with me.

71. JanDSedai
It is only 4-5 days from Swovan Night to when the Seanchan invaded Ebou Dar (the day after the Feast of Birds). If Swovan Night is Jan.4, then they found the Bowl in the morning of Jan.9. Nynaeve and Lan get together on Jan.8, and the whole unweaving the gates and blowing up the Seanchan and going to the manor in Andor all take place on Jan. 9.
Tricia Irish
72. Tektonica

Thanks for the Nynaeve link. The dark haired version fits the description alot better. Still doesn't say why she was orphaned? Ummmm. Poor thing. She had to grow up pretty fast. A lot of heartache to deal with at 14. She has been making a life for herself, by herself for a long time. I hope she gets to relax and let someone take care of her someday.....Lan.

If all walnuts came with a zipper, I might eat them.
73. afterthefallofnight
I am not a big fan of Mat, but I agree with dsolo@12, this bit from Birgitte is wonderful.

“The Black Ajah.” Birgitte’s voice was flatter than the floor tiles. “And one of the Forsaken. Mat never mentioned them. You owe him thanks on your knees, Elayne. Both of you do. The man deserves it. And Juilin, as well.”

In books like these, it is easy to become blase about the heroism of the characters. Everyone is a hero. They might act stupid or cruel or make mistakes but they are rarely cowardly. It is wonderful how Jordan explains to the reader, through the scolding of the super girls, how extraordinary Mat's and Juilin's actions were.
Leigh Butler
74. leighdb
RFife @1:

I don't do the casting thing, really. I generally assume the actors would be unknowns who would miraculously look exactly like the pictures of the characters I have in my head. Why not have my imaginary cake and eat it too?

Jwezy and others:

I actually don't want a movie(s) made of WOT either, mostly for the reasons others have already said; I just want to see THIS scene on film. As, like, a spiritual exercise. Or something.

jwdenzel @41:

I've seen that way done, and it can work (actually, they did that in one of the Star Trek movies, didn't they?), but it's really easy to have it end up looking completely cheestastic, too, or alternately confuse your audience, like, did she suddenly switch in the middle or what?

I dunno, for this scene I like the idea of committing one way or the other better.
Thomas Keith
75. insectoid
M-0-M @58: BAHAHAhahaha!! ::rolling on floor::

Hi Leigh! ::waves::

Sandy Brewer
76. ShaggyBella
When Elayne disguised Nynaeve as a topless Sea Folk gal, complete with nose rings, it was priceless. Especially with Thom and Julian cracking up and her trying to break the weave by hopping about. loved it.

Also, why doesn't Mat realize they are kidnappers, not robbers. This is twice. Is he blind?.
Bonnie Andrews
77. misfortuona
As Tek said thanks for the Nynaeve link.
Didn’t know about the orphan thing, and I never questioned who raised her and taught her to track and stuff. Now I am.

I had during this last re-read come to the conclusion that Nyn was suffering from some sort of mental illness. She's almost always paranoid, occasionally schizophrenic, and often makes me feel somewhat bi-polar when reading her.
Yep this girl has a chip on her shoulder, a big one, and who can blame her really. She has had a huge amount of responsibility for a long time and still everywhere she goes people treat her as little more than a child. Add to that her channelling handicap and why wouldn’t she be a little defensive.
Okay she’s a lot defensive, and stubborn, and absolutely hates to admit a mistake. The last here I can understand. She feels like people have been waiting for her to make mistakes her whole life, and probably some have. I’ve known people who put me on the defensive from the word go, because they point out every little mistake. (cough Grammar police :)) Anyway admitting it probably seems like pointing them out herself. Growth and Real self-confidence will cure it.
The schizophrenia doesn’t play out for me so much here, as in other scenes where she’s emphatically defending her EFers, while in her head thinking about how they need her to give them a switching. Her inability to see the same character flaws in herself that she rails about in others, well we all do that to some degree. She’s just more vocal about it.
Blood rushed to Nynaeve’s face. He had never mentioned...? That despicable, despicable man! “I will not apologize to Matrim Cauthon, not on my deathbed.”

I see this clearly in my mind as truth hits, and she realizes that apologizing to him is the right thing to do. The problem is here that she spends the rest of the night and the next morning trying to figure out how the prankster got the better of her. This is where the bi-polar kicks in for me.
She’s got a good heart, and I find her inner struggle so amusing, but at the same time I just can’t help yelling at her to get over it all ready. (But then the voice in my head reminds me that she isn’t real, and everything is okay again)

MOM@58 Just woke my kids up laughing. Thanks. And now I'm stuck seeing Rand as the chicken hawk. UGG.
It's okay I'll get over it.

The WOT movie. I'd have to be on the Please don't do it side. Oh I'd go see it, couldn't help myself, but I can't see anyway that it wouldn't be a huge letdown. I do find the casting calls interesting though. It kind of gives me a peak into other peoples heads about how they see the characters.

That's about it for tonight. Off to watch the movie on the insides of my eyelids.
Reminds me of the somewhat strange discussion of dreams over on BWS's facebook page earlier today. (Oooh shiny!)

Have any of you ever dreamed yourselves into Randland?
I only recall one. I was walking through EF, post trolloc attack and commenting on the changes with Loial. It was pretty cool actually. He's bigger in real life:)

Mis- psychoanalyzing
Bonnie Andrews
78. misfortuona
Just noticed your avatar. Cool I like it.

Anyway, IMO Mat's clueless because he just doesn't see himself as being important enough to warrant kidnapping/murder. He knows what he is at the surface, but it really hasn't sunk into his day-to-day thoughts yet.
I always thought he was being particularly dense here too, but then I got to thinking. His world is a dangerous place. If you were mugged, would you see it as personal or just wrong time, wrong place? After the second or third in as many days, you might get a bit paranoid, but maybe that’s just me.
It is funny though that he blames his luck being off, instead of realizing that it’s just saved him again.

Now I'm really leaving
john mullen
79. johntheirishmongol
A superb chapter, with yes, omg, actual character progress, except of course, from Nynaeve. I have to totally agree with MAT on his analysis of her. How anyone could think of Birgitte as a gilded lady is beyond me and it does make me laugh.

What's really real, in my book, is that when they do thank him..he's like all "it's no biggie, forget about it" which is really how men are about things. We do want to be thanked but then want to be all modest about it...which, of course, angers the SG again lol

This is not my favorite chapter in the series, because the sea change was the chapter where Rand is rescued and the AS kneel to him and swear to him. That sends shivers up my spine, because we had come to expect nothing but arrogance from the AS at that point and it was a total departure.

Now, I have done some thinking about how you would film this as well and the only conclusion I can come to would be that it would have to be one of those CGI deals because the problems of casting and aging. I also beleive that only a miniseries or series of miniseries could come close to accomplishing the mission. And even then a lot of the details would be left out and the story truncated. An example would be Winds of War and War and Rememberance, which were fabulous books (if you have never read Herman Wouk, you are missing out) but a ton of the details were left out of the miniseries to concentate on the romance angle. That and the horrible casting of the entire leads (Robert Mitchem, Jan Michael Vincent...omg)

Unfortunately, by the time the CGI looks real enough to actually do the series I won't be around because look how long it took to film the LOTR series.
sandi vogel
80. sinfulcashew
Please stop using those UTube 'inserts'!
I am trying to keep up with the comments and I 'have' to go and check out what someone posts as relevant to what they are saying.
Then I get caught up in looking at some of the other 'tubes'.
I started with the casting of the WOT movies.
Then I went on to watching TS3, Shrek's new one, and Iron Man previews. Even something called
Damm! I get lost over there and when I come back here.....I have to find the thread of what the heck I was reading.
I even got "rolled". And I can't even remember by what?
So have a mercy on me.
Thomas Keith
81. insectoid
Cashew @80: ::nods toward Subwoofer::

82. KinoSupremo
RE: "Weather Sense"

Later on in the series we learn from Tuon that all damane can read your future, which suggests that its something tied to being able to channel.
Nynaeve is notorious for weaving without thinking about what exactly shes doing (ex. healing with all 5 powers).
So rather than this being a Talent similar to Fortelling, perhaps she has independantly discovered a less-refined version of what the Seanchan already know. Except she did it on accident while listening to the wind.
83. Mndrew
Also my favorite chapter of the series to date, replacing Matt whomping on the Trakand boys at the tower; but for myself, I am in much love with Brig. teaching manners to the Terrible Two-rivers Twosome. (So this guy, with no super-powers that we know of, goes up against super-villians and a demoon to rescue you and you CRITISIZE him for it??!!?!...WTF dudettes?) Av. wins back much respect for her instant agreement too.
Anyone who has ever had massive amounts of work go unappreciated at the office or in ones personal life has to embrace this scene instantly. RJ hit a homer on this one, and to me it looked like he set it up this way right from the start. A masterpiece.
Harrison Levvey
84. hlevvey
I find it interesting to compare the Supergirls and Birgitte in that it utterly proves how young and un-worldly wise they really are. Birgitte has never had a conversation with Mat (that we have seen) up until this point in the whole series and her only knowledge of him is that he blew the Horn and what the Supergirls have told her - that he is an immature scoundrel who shamesly forces himself on women and is riding on the back of the Dragon Reborn bandwagon. But Birgitte approaches him without prejudice which she could have easily obtained because of her companions.

It's because of this attitude that she is able to have this truly wonderful moment with Mat and i feel that her wisdom obtained from all the knowledge of her past lives allows her to do this. She knows exactly how wrong first impressions can be and how people change.

Its easy to forget that Nyneave and Elayne are very young women who have been forced into positions of immense power - both political and in their channeling strength - and this would be enough to make anyone arrogant and self-centered. I personally believe that they have both handled the situation admirably but Jordan has used their treatment of Mat to remind us of just exactly how far and how fast everyone has had to change, and yet how they are still not as mature or experienced as someone as effortlessly cool as Birgitte to not be idiots once in a while.

I love this scene and its results so much because the relationship between Mat and the Supergirls becomes one where both parties accept that the other has changed, yet know they still have their roots in their old selves and can appreciate each other more because of it. I cant help comparing this to the relationship between Egwene and Rand where we know both are still very much the decent Two Rivers folk we met in TEOTW at heart yet they both believe the other to be changed beyond recognition and i cant wait to they reach this same point of mutual recognition which Mat and the Supergirls reached here.

It has to happen, if the results here are anything to go by.

Squee indeed
Debbie Solomon
85. dsolo
re: damane weather sense @ 82 KinoSupremo

I don't recall all damane being able to foretell, just Lidya. Do you remember which chapter/book?

In fact, it seems that Alivia is learning new weaves by watching because the AS won't teach her (typical blind arrogance), because all the damane learn are weapon weaves and skylights.
Rob S
86. RobSS
I loved this part too.
However I don't know if I could put my finger on a one, all time best.
I loved alot of Matt's MOA sceens.
Whe he tried to leave camp before the battle started in Cairien. Hahaha
Seeing the map in Rands tent and telling Lan how to fight the battle.
Being told he is as tall as he needs to be.
There are so many I can't name the all, but I loved them all.
Any body else have other favorite Matt sceens?
Sara H
87. LadyBelaine
dsolo@85, KinoSupremo@82

re: can all damane Foretell?

This was a bone of contention over in usenet back in the day, due to cryptic wording by Mr. Rigney. The quote was from Tuon, who having compelled (small 'c') Lidya into predicting her future, says in her inner monologue "everyone knows that damane can tell the future."

Here is the exact quote:
"Only luck had kept anyone from overhearing Lidya's cryptic words. Everyone knew that (emphasis added) damane could foretell the future, and if any of the Blood had heard, they would all have been chattering behind their hands about her fate. WH: 14, What a Veil Hides, 327

Which makes it seem like something *all* damane can do, but she really meant that *that* damane, *that particular* damane (Lidya) can. Substitute the word 'damane' with, I dunno, 'girl' and you'd get "Everyone knew that girl could foretell the future..." Which is exactly the same sentiment and meaning, but much more precise. Because damane is both plural and singular, it can be confusing.

Since using an a'dam is basically a link, it seems likely that Lidya, who evidently has the Foretelling talent be 'tripped' into a Foretelling reverie by being linked with another. We know that linking can induce a Foretelling, as we saw from Nicola when she was linked back in Salidar to fight that bubble of evil that attacked the rebel Aes Sedai with flying bedsheets and items of crockery.

It does make sense, anyway - Tuon has a collection of damane rarities or prized ones, it seems. As is fitting; as a princess, her pets would be superior to everyone else's. She owns a super strong one (Sera), one who is super adept and agile in weaves (Charral), one who can Fortell (Lidya), a pair of twin sisters (Dali and Dani) and last but not least, Mylen, one of the only Aes Sedai alive in captivity!

(yeesh - holy italics Batman!)
John Massey
88. subwoofer
Nods towards Subwoofer? What the deuce?!
Anyone who has ever had massive amounts of work go unappreciated at the office or in ones personal life has to embrace this scene instantly. RJ hit a homer on this one, and to me it looked like he set it up this way right from the start. A masterpiece.
-Thanks for that quote Mndrew:)

Seems to me in my quest to get a new thread, I did the work, others get the credit, and I get all the flack. Hmmmmmm- life- art- meet here. My wife says something similar when I get desert. "Maybe just one bite", then she eats most of it, then gets mad at me for ordering it and trying to get her fat. Ummmm... does the word discipline mean anything?

Now, for Ny ranting a little bit. I'm not her greatest champion. I'll go out on a limb and say that I do feel much of M A T's grievances with her. But I also don't want to get off as too misogynistic about it either. I guess I am not as entrenched in this as I am with the other 'annoying one' whom I will not name until after Lent has passed.

Anyways, sitting back, and reading this chapter again, out of harm's way, I could focus my thoughts on what a brilliant foil Ny is to Mat. In many ways Mat's carryings on are very funny. When reading his POV's you actually believe that he does not get that Olver is corrupted by Mat himself. OTOH Ny sees all of this and amplifies it 10x. And Ny has the ability to make a funny character like Mat seem the straight man in the comedy routine. No small feat.

So as I read this chapter I can't help but crack up at the fit Ny throws and it seems so real. Ny is a very believable character. She thinks she is a coward, but she does things that are very brave, she thinks the worst of people who are very like herself. Mat is Two Rivers down to his socks. So is Ny. Their loyalty to the people in their home town, their stubbornness, their lack of introspection, and their determination to see something through could be interchanged with each other.

Ny is classic when at first she did not want to send Thom and Juilin to ask Mat for help, because she never thought of it and because Mat would corrupt them into drinking with him and because she thinks that men gossip.
"I can't see how we could have Nynaeve," (Thom) said dryly," given that you told us next to nothing until tonight. You should have sent Juilin and me."
Nynaeve sniffed loudly. As if those two had not been running around like chickens with their heads off ever since they arrived, prying into her hand Elayne's affairs on Mat's say-so. Those three could not be together two minutes without gossiping, either. Men never could. They.... The truth of it was, she admitted reluctantly, using the men had never occurred to them. "You'd have gone off carousing and drinking with him," she muttered. "Don't tell me you would not."
Also because Birgitte is a woman, she would not take any of Mat's guff and smack him around for his pithy language and carousing. Too bad Birgitte actually sees things as they are. Like Belsan. Not an innocent boy at all.

Then at the end of the chapter, Ny's grand plan blows up at her because by sending a woman, Birgitte has instant credibility with Elayne to point out that hey, they did something wrong, here is how it is. If Thom and Juilin went, there would be no way that Elayne would come about and apologize. And no way Avi would agree. And no way that Ny, in her heart of hearts, would see that she was wrong too. The Stone, BA and Forsaken indeed.
They went right on talking. Only Birgitte looked at her, and the woman wore a smile not far from outright laughter. Nynaeve throttled her braid with both hands. She had known that they should have sent Thom and Juilin.

Sometimes it is hard to truely look at oneself and admit that you are wrong. Humility is a virtue for a reason.

Edited for quotes.

Tricia Irish
89. Tektonica
Good morning WOT Friends.

Back @55, Blind said something about Nynaeve being raised more like a boy than a girl, learning to track, hunt, etc. It made me curious about the other women on this thread. If you feel like a wee-mini-poll, I'd be curious to know:

How many of you ladies feel you were a Tomboy as a kid?

I've been curious about that, as I don't know any women that read Fantasy/Scifi, other than here in WOT world. Obviously, this poll has no importance to anything, just wondering......

Shaggybella@55: Yeah, Mat is pretty clueless about his importance, IMHO, although as the Hornsounder, and with known Darkfriend Activities in Ebou Dar, he probably shouldn't be. Duh. He's kind of endearing in his lack of ego here.

Agree that Nyn's Weather Sense is on the fritz because of the empending Seanchan invasion, also, finding the bowl and changing the weather, Gholam attack in the Rahad, etc. Lots to come here.

Sub@88; ::Salutes::Waving::Banners:: You are the man! Don't go feeling unappreciated! We love your humor, youtube links, one word postings to get us to 5,000, all-round good guyness! And you're pretty damn your parsing of Nynaeve here! Have a snickerdoodle.
90. MasterAlThor
Hey Tek.

I think that I am the only other one up this morning.

how goes things in Florida?

Send some sunshine up here will ya.....

By up here I mean the Blight border.

Bonnie Andrews
91. misfortuona
Good Morning. waves

Sub, excellent post on Nyn. And really I’m with Tek, don’t go thinking you’re underappreciated.

I see you Tek.
Ah yes your mini-survey.
I grew up with girls, but the works of us were far more likely to spend the day twenty feet up a tree than playing with dolls. Dresses don’t work well on horseback, and I still wear makeup maybe a dozen times a year. I can hunt and trap and skin a bear. Does that qualify as tomboy?

Good morning. I’d send you sun, but it’s a little ah missing here too.

john mullen
92. johntheirishmongol
Things in FL are 70 and sunshiny today!

My wife reads sci/fi and she is definately a girlie girl. And we have been married for 28 years. I also know another girlie girl who likes scifi. I don't think there's any corrolary there. It just used to be that scifi was looked down upon ...My mother hated it that I loved scifi, kept putting mysteries ad historical novels in my hands, and although I read practically all genres, I have never lost my love for scifi. Scifi used to be viewed as as the boys equivalent of romance novels
Alice Arneson
93. Wetlandernw
KinoSupremo @82 - ...we learn from Tuon that all damane can read your future... RJ identified this as a common misconception among the Seanchan, that all damane can do so. Further, IIRC he stated that Foretelling was almost lost among them, so Lidya's Foretelling is almost unrecognizable. Still, it's quite clear from other passages that "listening to the wind" is Power-related.

dsolo @85 - Weapons and Skylights are the two skills we see/hear most about, but there are other things. When Egwene was discovered to have a sense for metal ores, she was told she'd be pampered and petted for it back in Seanchan. There are other hints along the way about different things damane do (e.g. making ter'angreal), based on their individual gifting, but the only ones brought along to retake Randland would be the fighting types.

Tektonica @89 - Dunno... I grew up on a farm, so there was a certain amount of "outdoor life" as a necessity, and I certainly was the one (youngest of 7) who followed Daddy around to try to "help" him whenever possible. Learned a lot about mechanicking and woodscraft from him and my brothers as a child. I didn't think of it as "tomboy-ish", though, because my sisters did much of the same, and my mom was a fine hunter and handyman in her own right. I learned the love of reading from both parents as well as older siblings; my introduction to fantasy came from my 3rd-grade teacher (a man), but was greatly encouraged by my oldest sister. Incidentally, she and I introduced my dad to fantasy, at least to some extent. Not sure that helps the poll, but there it is.
94. MasterAlThor
Mis-sing sunshine,

Heh see we can play with your name too. Thanks for thinking about me though.

Whoa I knew that you grew up on a farm but this is early even for you right???
Alice Arneson
95. Wetlandernw
I apologize for not taking the time to provide sources in my previous post. Just in case you'd like it straight up, here's the quote:
For kcf, Tuon is stating a misbelief, really, a Seanchan urban folk tale, if you will. The Seanchan no longer know about Foretelling — though they are beginning to hear reports – but they have memories of the knowledge, you might say. There memories have gotten twisted into the widespread belief that any damane can tell your fortune. This belief is strengthened by the fact that some damane actually can Foretell, and more of them than on “this” side of the Aryth Ocean, a facet of sul’dam remaining in the breeding pool with the result that there are a higher percentage of women who potentially could channel among the Seanchan than on the Eastern side of the ocean. And also a higher percentage of many Talents.
- from Robert Jordan's official blog, November 22nd, 2005

MasterAlThor @94 - Well, childhood was a long time ago... :) My dad still owns the farm, although my brother runs it now. It's still "home" to me, though. We were a pretty self-sufficient bunch in many ways, though; money was always tight, so you didn't pay someone else for something you could do yourself. My dad did most of his own truck and tractor maintenance, and trained my brothers to do the same. I wasn't ever responsible for it, but I learned enough to be a darned good helper as I got older. He also did the plumbing, small electrics, washer/dryer and most other around-the-house repairs. I got to help pull all the pipes out of the well one summer so we could replace the check valve at the bottom. Ah, the good old days... ;)

Oh, and of course we hunted for most of our meat; buying it at the store was expensive, and a resident hunting license in Montana was pretty cheap. Dad loaded his own shells, but I think that was more because he enjoyed it than anything. And the guys would take any excuse to go hunting anyway. I never did that much hunting, other than gophers, but I went out a few years. Always have loved being out in the mountains and forests.
Bonnie Andrews
96. misfortuona
You and I so need to get together one day and compare 'growin up stories.' I'm looking you up next time in your neck of the woods.

Alice Arneson
97. Wetlandernw
misfortuona @96 - that would be so much fun!! If you make it out this way, I'll host!! I actually have a bunch of cousins in Sask, but mostly over in the Lanigan/Drake/Guernsey vicinity, so a few hours west of you. I have many fond memories of visits to the Canadian prairies.
Bonnie Andrews
98. misfortuona
Careful I actually come that way quite often. We lived 16 years in the okanagan, and our best friends live on Vancouver Island. Seatles not that far away. And Lanian isn't so far from me. If you find yourself out this way. I'd gladly do a road trip and meet you for a "tea" or two.

Tricia Irish
99. Tektonica

Got bored here when everyone was asleep and ran off and did stuff....will try posting the SUNSHINE!! It has been cold and sunny here (I know, not cold to you, but sweater & jacket weather here.), then it got gray for 2 days, now it is Glorious.....70, clear cobalt sky and quiet leaf blowers. Ocean is flat, but cold, 68 degree water, near the tropical gulf stream that is unheard of....70 is considered cold. So shine baby, shine! Step right up and get your Vitamin D!

Mis@91: Thanks for your response to my mini-survey. You are officially a Tomboy! Anyone that can skin a bear, is Awesomely outdoorsy competent!
That is a pretty "traditional" male, women= gathering, wouldn't you say?

John@92: Thanks for your response too! Was your wife always a girlie-girl? I'm into girlie stuff now, but was a total tomboy as a kid and can still do rough and ready at any time....but puberty will do that. ....And where in Florida are you? With your wife reading Sci/fi, maybe I could find a kindred female soul in the sunshine state?

Wet@93: Thank you too! Yea, Tomboy. How wonderful to be immersed in that farm/outdoor culture. You learn how to DO things. I too hung with Dad on weekends Doing things. And your mom also fits the mold, as most Farm wives I've known do. Your dad sounds just like mine...he fixed everything in the house, plumbing, electric, roof, windows, toaster, built stuff....renaissance man. Imagine my shock when I married Mr. Can't Fix It! We don't let Bob near tools. ( He's great with technology though.....and other things!)

I was raised in a medium size city in the midwest with the Mississippi in my front yard, and spent my summers on my friend's farm. (She didn't understand my getting up with her dad before dawn to do chores.) Always rode on the farm and spent my free time in the 'hood with the boys playing sports, climbing trees, building forts, rafts, fishing, and trapping unsuspecting snakes and rabbits....and playing "make-believe"....mostly cowboys and indians, echoing the Saturday morning TV shows of the day. Fantasyland! I just got that!

So far, you guys fit in with my amorphous theory about women who like Scifi/Fantasy being more science and philosophy oriented....doers and thinkers. Less traditionally girlie. I'll try to get that into a more cogent thought before I say more, and get more input.

Mis@96: Sounds like the three of us anyway, have much in common...hope we hear from some more ladies, as well.

Thanks for sharing your childhoods with me/us!
Alice Arneson
100. Wetlandernw
Hey, you actually do Vancouver Island regularly? Way cool! We're actually north of Seattle, so only about 3 hours from Vancouver. The Island takes longer, because of the ferry ride, but we love going up there. Sure would be fun to be there at the same time! Or meet halfway, or whatever. Give me a shout when you're planning your next trip. I'd LOVE it. Wish I could say I expected to make it out your way some time soon, but it isn't too likely. The cousins all meet up in Montana every two years, so we don't do a lot of extra trips to one another's homes.

And this all has nothing to do with WoT.... Sorry. Ummmmm....... Nynaeve. I love Nynaeve. But y'all are starting to think I just decide to love whoever is least liked by everyone else, aren't you? Okay, I still can't stand Berelain. But we'll be doing Berelain soon enough. Ummmm.... Mat. I like Mat. He's so much fun. Like someone already said, half the fun is how limited his self-knowledge is. He doesn't even see the best bits! Not much given to navel-gazing, our Mat. Which makes him more fun, I think. At least he escapes the "emo" charge so often leveled at Perrin!

Okay, I gotta use my Saturday for something besides tordotcom...
Bonnie Andrews
101. misfortuona
Confession time. The bear was an attempt at making a rug that went, terribly terribly wrong, so I wouldn't actually say I know how.

Yep, everything was fantasy when I was a kid too. Lots of cowboys and indians, but my favorite was Battlestar Galactica (the original of course). Apollo, Starbuck, and I flew the stars.

Probly this summer will let you know. Anyway WOT. I've always liked Nynaeve. Yes she is neurotic, but she is such a funny character, and strong when it counts. Don't nobody mess with her homeboys/girls.

Mis-conscience was bothering me, I'll be better now.
Cathy Brown
102. totoro-in-randland
Tek, for your survey, I'm definitely not a tomboy and never was, just a shy, bookish little girl, who always loved stories and started reading sci-fi at about 11 years old. Among my non-online friends and relations there are only two others that read sci-fi and fantasy ... both women.

As for this chapter, thanks, Leigh, for giving us that scene in its entirety. It sent tears to my eyes and chills down my spine ... again.

edited to say: oh, and the Latin made me laugh! What would Caesar have said?
Tricia Irish
103. Tektonica
Mis@101: You are too funny. Glad you got that off your chest! I was beginning to feel completely inadequate. Can't believe you'd even attempt it!

You must be younger than I am, as I was the Startrek generation...original Startrek....what a revelation it was! I was so disappointed when they retired the SST. I was hoping to fly it just once, to see the curvature of the earth and get a sense of our planet as a small mote in the infinite. Not much chance of making it to space now. :-((

totoro@102: Thank you! So not a tomboy, but shy and bookish....seems like you spent much time in Fantasyland in your head, not out building forts, but a thinker. Maybe it's imagination that we share? Fantasy of things beyond the small known worlds of our childhood? Still working on a theory. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please chime in.

See Torie, we need a "general discussion" thread for stuff like this!

WOT related....I've grown to be amused by Nynaeve. She totally irritated me in the early books, but she's gotten funny to me now. Probably thanks to many posts by you all here on Tor. Maybe SWMNBN has taken over as the irritant character for me.
Debbie Solomon
104. dsolo
Thanks for the updates on Seanchan damane to wetlandernw and Lady Belaine. That's why I love the commentaries. I always learn something.

re: mini-survey - I wasn't a tomboy, but I wasn't a girly girly growing up. Rode my bike, played Barbie, went camping, and read, read, read. I found a 2-sided SF paperback in my father's apt during a visit (child of divorce) and found it fascinating (2 sided paperbacks is dating me). I was 11, and started seeking out science fiction. Never mind other girls, I didn't know anyone else reading science fiction/fantasy. Didn't discover fandom until my late 20s, and that was media fandom, not literary. Managed to pass along my obsession to one of my nephews, who in turn introduced me to WoT while he was in high school (he's now in Seattle and I gave him tGS for his birthday). I read the first 6? books in 2 weeks (single at the time), pausing only to go to work.

You're not alone in Florida, Tek. I moved to the Tampa area almost 2 years ago and haven't met any new fan/friends. Although on the plus side, just found out that one of my co-workers recently started EoW at the recommendation of another co-worker, so I have hopes.
Barry T
105. blindillusion
Hmm. Slow Saturday. But as it's the first sunny/slightly warm one we've had in a while we're outside playing. Fun times.

And wow...did I start the conversation above?

I grew up outside: Bikes, forts, frogs, tire swings, trees, branches, breaking, falls, creeks, splashes, thorn bushes, band-aids...oh you know...outdoor in the 'Sip type stuff.

Though I'd say I'm a fan of fantasy because of my escapist nature and that I was a bookish boy growing up. Always had one in the small backpack I was never without while growing up...along with my plastic dagger, my actual knife, my water-gun (never knew when the war would start up again) and a Zippo my Grandpa gave me.... Man...sometimes I miss being a kid. Ah nostalgia, my blessing my curse. =) =(

Anyway...look at me...telling a story in 12 words. =)

Nothing WoT-related. Sorry. Guess we'll be needing that General Discussion

edit: Hmm, I was typing the above around the same time Tek was typing the above. How odd....
Bonnie Andrews
106. misfortuona
Yep this one has gone sideways something fierce. More a back when thing, but it's okay, cause we're all friends here.
Torie. See We really do need that General Thread, or the chat room, or whatever you can do. Pretty please, pretty Torie:)
Take pity on those people who find our foolishness, well foolish.

Janet Hopkins
107. JanDSedai
Re: tomboys
I was not a girly-girl, I always had boys for friends (as opposed to boy-friends). On Career Day the teacher would say something to the effect that " women can become doctors, now", and look at me. I was always expected to have a high-powered career because of my intelligence. However, I decided that that intelligence would be better served by being a mom foremost, so I never had a "career" (although I worked at Micheal's Arts and Crafts for 10 yrs.). Besides, I faint at the sight of blood...

I first found an outlet in reading the Oz stories, but then I discovered the sci-fi shelf at the book-mobile, and it was all over. Heinlein, Asimov, Bradbury, and Brown; I read them all.

I have been active in science fiction fandom since the late 70's, which has been my primary social outlet. We are (mostly) intelligent people, but some lack social skills (which is a fair assessment of the people on this board!). If I can do my part in teaching these people to "play well with others", it is all to the good.

Sub@88-- This is the type of post we love you for! (for which we love you) Not so much the posting 7 Youtube links in a row.
Janet Hopkins
108. JanDSedai
re: always having a book at hand
Maybe that's why Loial has such a fond place in our hearts!
109. MasterAlThor
Hey since Blind offered up his backstory I will too.

I played outside at the park, in the woods and at friends houses. Lot's of GI Joe, Transformers and Hot Wheels. Built forts, causht crawfish and played lots of sports. Rode bikes, fought with friends and listend to my parents records while waiting for dinner.

Life was good back then.

Didn't pick up reading sf/fantasy until an ex gave me The Gunslinger to read. I tore through that in no time, then it was on to Dragonlance and Forgotten Relms. I still have my original three Dragonlance books (Dragons of yadda yadda yadda).

The good stuff didn't happen until the fall of 95. I was looking for a book to read and talked to my friend Steve and he said "hey check this out, if you can make through the first 200 pages you will be hooked!" Neddless to say it was true. I still remember tasting the dust as Rand and Mat travelled to Caemlyn.

That feeling has never been duplicated by any other series.

I am always ups for a good book. If you guys got any suggestions throw them my way.

I also like long walks on the beach...uh oh...that's not right. Sorry bout that just ignore that last little bit.

110. NearToothlessWilder
Re Tektonica's survey
I was a half-and half I suppose. I was brought up with 3 brothers and one older sister; she was the girly girl and I was the one who was annoyed that toys for girls (in the 50s) were so uniform and boring - dolls, dolls and more dolls. (Mind you, the last doll I got was an African with a grass skirt and I really liked her - such a change from the usual blonde blue-eyed clones.) I was always envious of my brothers' presents except when they were engineering based - Meccano had no appeal for me.

However my sister were and I were brought up to be intellectually equal with our brothers even if the chores were assigned on a typical gender-based premise. So I followed my oldest brother's reading preferences and was introduced to science-fiction before I was 10 and to fantasy when I was in my mid-teens.

I have successfully introduced only one female friend to fantasy, and partially to science fiction.
stephanie keenan
111. adriel_moonstar
Tektonica's mini-survey...can the answer be both yes and no?

I was never a clothes and make-up girly girl. But I was a junior domestic goddess as far back as middle school. I knit, crochet, sew (both clothes and quilting), garden and cook. My family never eats mac and cheese from a box or soup from a can, although I have started making my brownies from a mix.

I have refinished half our furniture and painted or papered every room in the house. I also remodeled a bathroom, although I paid Lowe's to install the toilet (but I put in the new sink by myself).

Most of my high school friends were boys, from a D&D group for the most part. I attended an engineering college on an ROTC scholarship when that was still fairly unusual. (All of my friends from there are women-and yes they all like SF and fantasy.) And I was a naval officer for four years.

So- is the answer yes or no?

Oh yeah. In the seventh grade I fell down the stairs at school because I was reading a book walking between classes. Loial is totally my kind of guy.

And subwoofer @36 Where did you get that picture of my dog?
stephanie keenan
112. adriel_moonstar
MasterAlThor @109

M.K. Wren's Phoenix Legacy series (Sword of the Lamb, Shadow of the Swan, and House of the Wolf) are an amazing future history series that I have not seen recommended here before.

Unfortunately they are out of print, but well worth looking for.
Jacy Clark
113. Amalisa

Absolutely agree with you regarding the Phoenix Legacy. It can still be found used *looks around and whispers* on Amazon - which is where I went to get it when my original copies finally wore slap out.

As for the tomboy question... yes, I was. Also boy crazy. Which made for an interesting segue from tween to teen. I excelled at sports, was a daredevil on a bicycle, and I learned how to shoot and start recalcitrant old tractors from my grandfather. He (and my father) introduced me to fantasy and science fiction - much to the chagrin of my mother and her family... *serene smile*
Janet Hopkins
114. JanDSedai
Re: other books
There was a survey on the spoiler thread a coupla hundred posts ago.

Nobody mentioned Lois McMaster Bujold. The Vorkosigan novels are my all-time favorites to re-read. That and anything by Steven Brust.
John Massey
115. subwoofer
Mini survey- I grew up as sort of a tom-boy, but then, I always danced to my own tune. Legos and building forts and starting fires were my passion. And bike riding at an early age. Wasn't much into dolls or dress-up, but I was know for playing 'doctor' on occasion;) In grade six, I had the hobbit read to me at school. Same year we did C.S. Lewis. Brilliant stuff. I was hooked.

For books I loved Jules Verne and Eddings. I also loved the Spellsinger series by ADF. And Orion.

Ahem- that was a self portrait.

And does anybody have any idea how long it takes to do a series of posting on the monster site, have them balefired upon the second load and start again? And then have to edit the durned things to make them not just a grab for glory? Then find out it was a huge horking waste of time because the magic number had nothing to do with a new tread and just a not true number. I could of been playing ping-pong with my dog Lucy in all that time.

Ron Garrison
116. Man-0-Manetheran
Tek, Mis, Wet, et al:

You all have been busy today! I checked the thread this morning and then went off to other things. It was about the time that Tek postulated her Tomboy question. I’m not in the habit of watching Saturday morning cartoons, but since I watch TV in a window on the Mac while doing other things, I did catch a funny coincidence:
As I changed channels, I came upon one called “Jane and the Dragon.” (Who can pass up anything with dragons in the title?) Just about then she was complaining to her mother that she didn’t want to wear a dress to the ball. “But MOTHER, I’m a knight! Knights don’t wear dresses!” Well, I had to think of you!

Oh, and Mis and Wet: I’d love to meet you both at Dot’s Pies on Vancouver Island! (If it’s still there, of course. And I can’t imagine it’s not there!) Homemade berry pie and coffee...

And I grew up in the middle of nowhere on the backside of “Ignorant and Proud of It!” Indiana. There were no other kids my age for many miles around, so I was self entertained. I liked the toys that I could build with: Erector Set and a plastic block set kept me entertained for years. But the supreme toy was a great big cardboard box - the bigger the better.
Barry T
117. blindillusion
*Pats Sub on the shoulder*

Hear ya man. Let's go grab a beer. My treat.
John Massey
118. subwoofer
Shucks blind- thanks for the offer but gave up drinking for Lent. Until the day before my wedding anniversary it is a dry county in Subwooferville. S'ok, I'll take up knitting or needle point or something. May go into the woods and bang on a drum until I see my totem animal. I dunno. I think that is what Jesus did.

Tricia Irish
119. Tektonica
Blind@105: Yes, you did precipitate this conversation...thank you! Hope no one minds us taking up space on this thread, this slowish Saturday PM. I've been curious about this for a long time, and your observation about Nynaeve clicked with me.

Many of my friends belong to book clubs and I have tried them, but they read all these weepy, slice of life books that just put me to sleep, even when they're well written. I was beginning to feel like a freak, until I found this site! I read the classics in jr. high, high school and college, which is also where I found SciFi. There were quite a few years of no time for reading; supporting myself, living in NYC, then marriage and kids. (I dont' know how some of our ladies do it with little kids! My hat's off to you....If I sat down back then I'd just fall asleep after a page or two.) Anyway, I'm taking notes and maybe we'll learn something. Thanks guys for participating too. Always fun to learn about people's backgrounds....kind of like meeting the parents.

And Sub....why so bitter? We've been sending our appreciation. Didn't the snickerdoodle do it for you? What can we do? I don't have a dingleball to send :-(

MOM@116; Funny coincidence! As a kid, I had to dress up for church, of course, but other than that.....pants and shorts for me, depending on the season. Never heard of Jane and the Dragon, but then, I'm out of touch with the Saturday fare these days. Knights, yeah, that's us, knights, hahahaha.
Bonnie Andrews
120. misfortuona
Unless Wet's looking for a private Tea party, I'd love to have you join us. More the merrier the way I see it.
Mis-summer can't come too soon, for more reasons every day.
Ron Garrison
121. Man-0-Manetheran
I was really just what-iffing. There is no way I can ever leave Denver in the summer due to work. But I do highly recommend Dot's Pies for coffee, pie and chat!
Tricia Irish
122. Tektonica

Hey, another Sunshine State gal! Wish you were closer. Ever get over to the "other" coast? Thanks for the survey input....I'm compiling....

MOM@116: I have fond memories of a very large box, from a new stove or something, one summer as a kid. We played with that until it disintegrated. It was also the source of one of the worst of my nine black eyes, when someone overturned it into my face. Rough boys. Thanks for bringing that memory back!
123. MasterAlThor
Hey Tek

Where are you in Florida? My little brother who just got introduced to the WoT this year is down near Orlando going to college.

If you are near there maybe you could school him on WoT.

Yes huge boxes where great. My brother and I put garbage bags over them and slid down the stairs. Until we broke the railing. Mom was PO'd. dad did talk to us for a week. Did I mention that was in our brand new house that was just built.

Could of sworn I mentioned that. Ha!

John Massey
124. subwoofer
@Tek- I'm not bitter, it must be the withdrawal. Has me on edge. I'm almost a glass half empty person. I used to be a "time for more beer person", you know, some people say the glass is half full, some say it is half empty, some say it is time for more beer... anyways, was responding to JSedai@107. Sorry, shoulda been focusing on you and Mis for your warm words of appreciation. I stand corrected and duly chastised. Give me a couple of days and me switching my vice to coffee. Then I will be as right as rain.

The irony of snickerdoodles is that I am allergic to cinnamon. I thought they were some sort of snickers in melted smore/cracker type form. Heh. My mistake. I'll just scarf the snickers and leave the doodles...

Yes, back in the day, you could spend the big bucks on fancy toys, but they would break right away and then it is just a kid, a stick and some dirt. Good times were had. It is the simple things. I built a tree house back when, nailing wooden pallets into a tree. Kids have no clues about safety and building codes... Sometimes I am amazed that I made it out of childhood with all my limbs and theoretically my higher functioning. Helmet? What's that for?

Tricia Irish
125. Tektonica

Unfortunately, I'm about 30 miles south of Palm Beach...east coast. Quite a hike from Orlando. The Tampa area is much closer to Orlando. The trip from Orlando to the southeast coast is one of the most boring ever...empty and flat...cows and orange trees.

Where is your brother? What's he studying?

Boys will be boys...sliding down the stairs in a box?? You're lucky your head is still attached......and your parents didn't disown you! Haha.
John Massey
126. subwoofer
Sooo... is the dice in Mat's head good or bad? When they stop in recent history Mat is introduced to the Tylin um... saga. Then in later times a wall falls on him and the epic words, "what happen to my bloody luck?" comes up. I was thinking about that, arguable the only good thing that happens to Mat when the dice tumble about is Setalle Anan and the Wondering Woman, and maybe, but for me the jury is still out, Tuon.

Or is it Spidee Sense? Radar guidance that good or bad things are ahead. That is the random part of Mat's luck.

Tricia Irish
127. Tektonica
I was wondering if Lent was making you a little cranky? Good to take a break every once in awhile. After a few days, I'm always amazed at how good I feel! Hard to imagine you as a glass half empty person. Buck up little ring tail!
::starts chant::* we love Sub* we love Sub*we love Sub*

Too bad about the cinnamon allergy! One of the world's great scents/tastes. (Along with bacon and coffee.) We'll make you some chocolate chip or something. Wonder where the name Snickerdoodle came from....a contest maybe? Very silly.

Yeah, boxes, forts, a shovel, hammer/nails, a ball.....imagination. I don't remember many toys except my bike and wagon and skates. The dolls just got dusty on my bedroom shelves. Had to be outside. It's still all about the Adventure for me.....many different kinds of adventure now.
John Massey
128. subwoofer
Yes, a couple of the Foster kids my from my wife's parents were buggering around in the back yard during the coldest days of the year here. They had to be outside too. Crazy. I was finishing the tree house and was under the gun, these kids were outside for kicks. They even built an igloo. I don't get kids sometimes. I just about die when I have to walk the dog, these guys seem to be impervious to cold. Either that or back to my amazement that certain higher functioning works.

Funny thing. My dogs use the back yard for doing numbers 1&2. Heh. Kids built the igloo with yellow snow.

Alice Arneson
129. Wetlandernw
They didn't find the iced tea, though, did they? ;)
John Massey
130. subwoofer
Well, except for that one... aberration... I kept a flask in my overalls as motivational spirits:)

Barry T
131. blindillusion
Sub, drinking? How's about a nice game of darts and a Coke? I like Straight Cricket, no points. I'll even give you 20's and 19's. Oh yeah, no slop. 'Tis fun, no?

Well gee, 'twas no problem. And gots to take up for my girl Nynaeve...perhaps my favorite character after Mat...since as many have stated...she's pretty much the same Character.

M-o-M, Tek, etc,
Boxes? Probably the best present ever! I mean, ever notice that once the presents are unwrapped and the toys are set loose...the kids would rather play with the box than its contents? I can recall once building a several story building out of refrigerator sized boxes when I was around nine. I got to test out the third floor since I was lightest...needless to say...King Kong would have laughed.... Still, just wait...eventually I'll start mass producing the Next Great Toy Line: Box® ~ The Box full of Boxes!!!

The glass isn't half full, it isn't half just has...err...water in it. Pessimists and, Realists get to have more fun. And I for one like your youtube posts...wish I had your youtubefu...I'm horrible at finding anything worthwhile on that site.

As for the Dice in Mat's head...I've always seen them as a Spidee Sense...neither good/nor bad...just a Blinking Red Light to announce Momentous Matastic Moments ahead.
Ron Garrison
132. Man-0-Manetheran
Here's a good cheer-up: Go to the front page of and watch the animated cartoon "Granny O'Grimm's Sleeping Beauty." I was laughing so hard I had tears in my eyes.

Refrigerator Boxes! Yes!!!
John Massey
133. subwoofer
19s and 20s? Will you offer me fish broth and milk-bread as well? Heh. Life- art- meet here;)

Actually, I used to be very jedi-like with darts. Have a few of my own sets, with numerous flights. Have not done so in a while, I moved on from darts to daggers and then took up the compound bow. I am sure that after a few er... pitchers of ice tea, I could regain my old form. I just have to practice my flame and void thingy. Worked back in the day for darts, works for bow-hunting now. Just have to get a feel for the weight again.

Yes, and I am not an either/or person. Just the facts ma'am. I remember the old saw about there being two types of people in the world, those who divide the world into two types and those who do not. Me, I'm a let's throw out the water and go for a beer run type. I'll always take what is behind door number three. I like rainbow crayons:)

Saw the video M O M. Cranky lady with a bad knee and a penchant for traumatizing little kids. Reminds me of a Mike Meyers skit he used to do.

Barry T
135. blindillusion
Just never was a fan of points. And why 20s & can I say...I'm that good...and that's before I get into game mode after a few beers. But if you want points...we can play 713...have to be exact...and you have to win with Bullseye...oh, and you have to go Positive Number, Negative Number and So On. Game we came up with in Korea. Darts was the Thing To Do in Korea.

Oh...and there's this:

The Wheel of Time comes and Ages come and go. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, and called the Fourth Age by others who are dumb, in the city of Tear a wind rose.

Through the streets of Tear the wind blew. The wind blew past merchants crying their wares, past plump innkeepers moping their brows, and past goodwives sweeping their front steps. The wind took a left on Third Ave, and headed for Mistress Tia's House of Pies. But as usual the line was too long, so the wind sighed and went to Harlor's Ale House. An hour later, the wind staggered toward the Stone of Tear.

The wind passed a pleasantly plump seabreeze carrying her tailwind in the air. He howled enticingly at her, but she blew right past him.

"Typical," muttered the staggering wind, and spun himself around before falling on his face.

Did have tEotW...but thought the post too long...but this is MOA.

Found this here.
Rob Munnelly
136. RobMRobM
Survey (indirect) - my wife was and is a girly girl and wouldn't touch a SF/F book or see a SF/F movie if her life depended on it. (She's never seen Star Wars, for goodness sake.) She's on the Janet Evanovich/Jodi Picoult/The Help side of the reading aisle.

My ten year old daughter also is a girly girl, with ballet being her prime out of school activity, but she loves teen-oriented fantasy (Eragon, Inkheart, Percy Jackson). She's intimidated by the thought of reading EoTW (print is too small) but she knows the characters and plot lines from conversations with me and occasional reading excerpts.

Re me - I read omnivorously from an early age whenever I wasn't playing sports and running around in the woods near our house in the burbs (no hunting in my world in Eastern Massachusetts). Read a ton of SF/F but have put that on back burner over last 20-plus years of grad school, marriage, work and kids. Got back into over the past few years to occupy myself on my train ride into Boston.

sandi vogel
137. sinfulcashew
Not a tom-boy.
Just a kid, doing kid sliding down a wooden plank and getting a nail stuck in my unowhat.
Thinking that if I tied a rope around my ankles I should be able to lift myself straight up.(it didn't work, but chipped my tail bone I think)
I remember cooking bacon with my Grandpa on my new, for Christmas, electric stove when I was probably 5 or 6. Real plug in stove. Cool.
My Mom introduced me to SF & F with Fate magazine. Yep, in the early 50's. We had one of the first subscriptions to Isaac Asimov's magazine.
Belonged to SF book club.
My nephew's wife is a big WOT fan and introduced me at about the 6 or 7th book of the series. Maybe 10 years ago?????

I don't have a real problem with too many of the cast of characters.
The Whitecloaks are pretty much at the top of this list.
The FS are kind of like comic relief at times.
Any others just sort of come and go on the list. Liking them for awhile until they do something dumb and then they redeem themselves later on.
Up and down and back and forth it goes.
Kind of like life?
Justin Levitt
138. TyranAmiros
This is also one of my favorite scenes, and it's one I appreciate more every re-read. I love how Jordan changes Mat and Birgitte's syntax and idiom ever so slightly--just enough to clue the reader that something's going on, but not enough to figure out exactly what (since we wouldn't recognize the differences for exactly what they are).

Language was one of RJ's clear strengths, and it's plainly evident in this chapter.
139. OwMasha
I've been following these threads since November, but mildly terrified to comment. But I, uh, want to comment now ... so, hello?

First, because I remember reading the bit about Leigh's favourite scene being in CoS and thinking, 'Ooh! Isn't this the one with the smashing Birgitte-recognising-Mat scene? Maybe it's Leigh's favourite, too.' And so it was! I feel like I won a bet.

(and then got mugged, I guess, to explain the lack of money...)

But second, because the tomboy/girly-girl survey came up, and some of the previous posters seem almost as confused about the phenomenon as I am. Or maybe not confused, but ... mixed. I mean, I was a little fashionista as a kid, and I was also kind of pugilistic. And obsessed with maps, which (as I found out at the state geography bee) is supposed to be a Boy Thing. The division was there, and I saw it (sorta ... eventually) but it never quite made sense to me.

There seem to be a lot of non-city raised people here, so I'm wondering ... would growing up urban have something to do with this? I mean, 'the outdoors' generally meant 'recess on asphalt' or 'the park near my house' to us, so catching frogs/hunting/skinning bears(!) weren't really there to signify.

And that makes me wonder - are there more farm/out-of-city kids among the WoT fans here than, say, in the average population? And does knowing what it's like to live in the open make getting into this kind of fantasy easier or more appealing?

(If this is a rude, intruder-y wall of text, I'm SO sorry. Again, hi, and marvelous place you've got here...)
Birgit F
140. birgit
I always played with boys as a kid and was annoyed when the mother of one of my friends treated me differently because I was a girl.
My father introduced me and my brother to SFF. We played English fantasy games before we learned English at school. Later we found it funny that our English teacher didn't know the word "sorcerer" (or maybe it was "wizard").
The first book I read in English was also fantasy. I think it was about 7th grade (I started learning English in 5th grade). My father was reading books with interesting covers (Xanth), but they were in English. He encouraged me to try the series anyway. He had the first book in German and English. I first read it in German and didn't understand about Chamaeleon. My father explained it to me. Then I immediately read it in English and understood it that time. The second book he had in German, the third only in English, but I understood it anyway. I liked reading the English ones better because the puns are difficult to translate. I often had to translate back to English. Since that time I prefer reading English books (mainly fantasy) in English.
If you like Silk in the Belgariad you'll like Rafik and Hafiz in the Acorna series.
Rob Munnelly
141. RobMRobM
Leigh - couple of quick comments.

1. I strongly prefer the second option for filming the scene. The audience needs the big reveal.

2. One of the most subtle lines in all WoT - "She spoke slowly, studying him as if to be sure he understood."

3. One thing that always fascinated me - Birgitte promises to keep Mat's secret but doesn't know what it is. She never asks the obvious question: how did you learn to speak the Old Tongue in so many idioms? Do we think she figured it out or is she really not curious?

4. Appreciate your thoughts that this scene and most of the Mat-related scenes hereafter are cool, but those are not enough to make this the best book in the series. Not even close. There's some serious bleh and dreck outside of the main story lines. I did find your comment interesting that TSR is the best written of the books - yes it is, and if you want more proof go hang out on Thirteen Depository for a while and see all the games RJ was playing in writing that book in particular. For outright fun, I like TDR - which has great Mat scenes (the I am not Aes Sedai meat and Galad and Gawain staff scenes in particular), Perrin-Faile-Moirane fun before Faile became annoying, interesting SG adventures, the first extended screentime of the Aiel and their particular brand of coolness, and the bang up everyone get together at the Stone of Tear finale. Much higher percentage of high quality fun to dreck than this book. KoD also fits the bill for fun to dreck quotient: great Mat-Tuon scenes; great Perrin-Seanchan scenes; fun Karede scenes during the investigation (cup of Kaf); Rand facing 100k trollocs and then Semirhage; great Eg scenes in the White Tower as a prisoner; and the climactic battle of Malden (and the heartbreaking Tam realization that Rand is the Dragon Reborn - "Not much to do about it now, Tam").

5. How is the house search going? We appreciate the awesomeness of this chapter but I will step forward and be the first on this thread to make the obvious complaint that once per week is painful enough to we addicts, but to only have one chapter in the once per week is really not cool. We want more, need more on this re-read. Please get it back to twice per week -- or at least toss in a few chapters on a given thread - so that we can have really good content for a time to chew over and then get shiny new content to discuss. Thanks.

Alexander Foff
142. Abbumaru
@ Leigh concerning Heroes:

Actually the Japanese storyline (and especially the sequence with Samurai'd Hiro) is the one reason I kept watching the show. In the current fifth season the best episode by far is again a Hiro-centered episode, although "best episode in Heroes S5" isn't exactly a quality award.
Anyway, the thing I wanted to tell you is this: I too love the original Japanese dialogue with English subs but imagine my surprise when I switched through German television here and stumbled over a Heroes episode... Everybody speaks fluent German but Hiro and Ando. When those two talk directly to somebody else (in non-Japanese) they speak broken German with a heavy accent. HOWEVER, when they talk in 'Japanese' between themselves they actually speak fluent German just like all the other people. IIRC correctly the original English subs are still displayed on top of that. Now in my book this is so many kinds of stupid it's not even funny...
I just had to think of this when I read your remark. =)
Jay Dauro
143. J.Dauro
Playing with Boxes.

I can remember a movie where a family is walking past a Department Store window where they are setting up a toy display. I believe the toy was a train set (that you could ride on.) The little boy sees the window and expresses his desire for the greatest toy ever. So all through the movie, the father is trying to get the money to buy the train for Christmas, which he does.

Christmas morning, the train is running as boy comes down. And immediately exclaims his joy, and heads straight for the big box it came in.

I don't know if it was a real movie, or if I ever really saw it. But I do remember it vividly, and laugh.
Rob Munnelly
144. RobMRobM
This is too funny. It is from the website linked by Blind in 135 above. It deserves to be quoted in its entirety:

A Crown of Swords


Tylin: In Ebou Dar, custom says that to show honesty, women get half-naked.
Elayne: Well, I don’t want to be rude. Half-naked it is.
Nynaeve: Yes, it’s fine with me. I’ll just think about Lan.
Tylin: Nothing like being half-naked to help you discuss high politics.
Elayne: It’s also good for raising Amyrlins.
Tylin: Custom also dictates that to show trustworthiness, you cluck like a chicken.
Elayne: Thank you. Cluck, cluck.
Nynaeve: This city has odd customs. Woof, woof.
Elayne: No, Nynaeve, woofing is a White Tower custom. Cluck, cluck.
Uno: I am a woman.
Elaida: I must spend most of the White Tower’s resources on building a huge palace for me that will be even taller that the White Tower. It will be called The Taller Tower. Alviarin: I use my intelligence to do evil.
Elaida: I use my stupidity to do evil. We’re a team!
White Tower Aes Sedai: We don’t like the looks of those Salidar Aes Sedai.
Salidar Aes Sedai: We don’t like the looks of those White Tower Aes Sedai.
Cairheinin: We don’t like the looks of those Aiel.
Aiel: We don’t like the looks of those treekillers.
Two Rivers men: We don’t like the looks of those Asha’man.
Asha’man: We don’t like the looks of anyone.
Perrin: My super powers tell me that all these people glaring at each other, fingering their weapons do not like each other. My super-strong nose tells me. My super-weak brain doesn’t.
Rand: My rescue party is about to kill each other. There are thousands of people that all hate each other, all following me. Wish I could help. On to more important things: I must memorize each and every woman who dies for me. There’s Braida. She had such nice braids. There’s Talla. She was taller than most men. There’s Lentila. She made wonderful lentil soup. And now, it is time for a song about the dead women who have served me…
Sorilea: Maybe letting the Maidens fight wasn’t such a great idea.
Rand: We must take back Cairhein as quickly as possible. Ride slowly toward Cairhein.
Dobraine: Like this?
Rand: Slower.
Dobraine: How about like this?
Rand: Too fast.
Dobraine: How about now?
Rand: Oh, just ride backwards.
Perrin: Faile, are you okay?
Faile: Smell my spiky-jealousy-mixed-with-hurt scent.
Perrin: Smell my sick-of-your-stupid-scents scent.
Faile: Now we’re getting somewhere.
Min: Rand, Perrin must be around you to save your life twice. Once was Dumai’s Wells, but there obviously must be a second time. My viewings never fail.
Rand: Send him to Ghealdan. I like to live on the edge.
Min: The edge of danger?
Rand: The edge of stupidity.
Birgitte: Mat thinks it’s bad that you mistreated him when he rescued you in the Stone of Tear
Aviendha: Near-sister, you should apologize to him. In my country, we call it "rude."
Elayne: In my country, we call it "regal."
Aviendha: Near-sister, in my country, when someone risks their life to save yours, you do not punish them.
Elayne: You have strange ways.
Aviendha: Near-sister, I think you have toh. I once nearly ripped off Rand al’Thor's head for asking me if he had toh. You cannot be told you have toh; you just know. Being told you have toh shames you further.
Elayne: Do I have toh?
Aviendha: Yes. Now you are shamed even further.
Elayne: I don’t think I have toh.
Aviendha: No, you do. And even more shame is heaped upon you.
Elayne: Are you sure?
Aviendha: Absolutely. And shame for you again.
Elayne: Maybe I can have a shame box, to hold all my shame.
Aviendha: Or a dumpster.
Moghedien: Ah, heh, heh, Great Lord. That was actually Demandred’s idea. I don’t really like doing impressions.
Moghedien: That seems like a hard life.
Tylin: This knife to your throat will stop your struggling. It will also peel off your clothes, duckling.
Mat: Elayne thinks this is my just desserts for what I do to women.
Tylin: I never knew you used knives on women.
Mat: Neither did I. But the important thing is that Elayne thinks it’s my just desserts.
Tylin: Does Elayne think you starve women into submission?
Mat: I’ll have to check. Probably.
Tylin: Then prepare for more just desserts. Without the actual dessert, of course.
Elayne: Mat, Aviendha wants me to apologize to you. So you have my forced apology. And I vow not to insult you, simple subject.
Nynaeve: Elayne wants me to apologize to you. So you also have my forced apology. And I vow not to insult you, you lout.
Mat: I love forced apologies mixed with insults at the crack of dawn.
Nynaeve: And we will not put you or ourselves in danger without telling you. Except when Moghedien is out there, trying to kill me and anyone else near me.
Mat: So how many of my men will Moghedien kill that you will try to hide from me?
Nynaeve: Only two.
Cadsuane: I have arrived.
Rand: So what?
Cadsuane: You are rude. I have left.
Min: I have found Harid Fel dead, and then Lady Colavaere dead.
Rand: Then we must comfort each other, naked.
Min: Yes. We must comfort each other, naked.
Mat: What will we do tonight?
Beslan: Tonight is Swovan Night. Custom says we drink.
Mat: We did that the other night.
Beslan: That was The Festival of Lights. Custom said we would drink.
Mat: How about next week?
Beslan: The Festival of Birds. Custom says we drink.
Mat: The day after that?
Beslan: The Festival of Drinking. Good day to drink. Oh, and I know my mother is forcing herself on you.
Mat: Custom says I must drink.
Elayne: I have found the Bowl of the Winds without Mat’s help!
Aviendha: In my country, that is called "being obnoxious by ignoring someone else who has helped you."
Elayne: Wow. I have so much to learn about the Aiel, and your "non-rude" ways.
Aviendha: Now say, "Thank you, Mat."
Elayne: "Thank you." These are strange words you are telling me to say. Is this some spell in The Old Tongue? Have I raised the dead?
Aviendha: You have raised your conscience.
Elayne: My what?
Lan: My love for you is burning inside me. Like a block of ice burns.
Nynaeve: Then we must be married by Nesta din Reas, Mistress of the Ships. It’s a good idea to get married by the leader of a society I know nothing about, that already hates me.
Mat: You may need help obtaining the Bowl of the Winds.
Nynaeve: Matrim Cauthon! That is ridiculous! We have never needed help doing anything! Except escaping those bandits in Cairhein. And getting out of the Stone of Tear. And escaping Ronde Macura in Amadicia. What are the odds we will need help this time?
Gholam: Pretty good.
Elayne: Mat, we need you to stand there in front of a panel of Aes Sedai and a group of Windfinders. Just for no reason. Just to stand there.
Mat: It only took you a week to break your promise not to manipulate me. I assume you need my ta’veren-ness because you screwed up royally with Nesta din Reas.
Elayne: You are a most observant subject.
Mat: You have to actually be a queen to have subjects.
Elayne: You are a most intelligent subject.
Mat: Nynaeve is also from Andor. Is she your subject?
Elayne: When you are arrogent enough, you rise above being a subject.
Elayne: We must bring back all these Kinswomen to the White Tower.
Nynave: Many of them are not strong enough to be Aes Sedai. What do you suggest we do with them?
Elayne: Just think of all the glares and sniffs we could have with them!
Nynaeve: Now you’re making sense. Are we leaving anyone behind?
Elayne: Only Mat.
Nynaeve: Let’s go.
Rand: I can’t believe I did what I did to you. Through your moans of pleasure, and cries of "Yes! More!" I could tell you were miserable.
Min: How could you tell?
Rand: Because I have vast knowledge of women.
Min: How have you obtained such great knowledge?
Rand: By running in fear from women, I have mastered them.
Harine: Rand al’Thor, we will give you anything you want.
Rand: Sounds good. Merana, take it from here.
Harine: Merana, we will give you nothing you want.
Merana: Sounds good.
Harine: Have you, a Grey Aes Sedai, ever had a successful negotiation?
Merana: Once, in Caemlyn, I angered The Dragon Reborn for no reason.
Harine: For whom was that successful?
Merana: The Black Ajah.
Rand: I have handled the Sea Folk. I can do anything. I will now handle the rebels outside Cairhein.
Min: Last time you were alone, bad things happened.
Rand: What are the odds of me needing help from anyone?
Fain: Pretty good.
Rand: I can barely stand. Time for me to face Sammael.
Min: This time, you should not be alone.
Rand: I will not be alone. I will have nine thousand breakdancing Saldaeans on horseback helping me.
Sammael: Come and get me in Shadar Logoth, if you dare! No one can kill me, fool! Hahahahahaha…
Lord Gregorin: Lord Dragon, you do be the King of Illian.
Rand: Place the deadly crown on my empty head.
145. MasterAlThor

Welcome to the madhouse. Don't be afraid we are all sick here and we bite. LOL.

Seriously, you are most welcome to post wall o text anytime you want.


You got a nail stuck in your what????

That's gotta hurt like the dickens. I winced and again when I read it a second time. The only traumatic thing like that I ever experienced was playing on the ringlike monkey bars and falling on "jim and the twins". I think I fainted when I had to show the school nurse where I was hurt. At the time I was in the 1st grade.

Maiane Bakroeva
146. Isilel
This is a funny and enjoyable chapter, but it doesn't redeem the Bowl of Winds digression for me, which feels even more useless now that we know that "the Dragon is one with the Land" and fixing the weather doesn't solve the problem of food supply at all. D'uh!
Also, the storyline of Doom, it is starting in this book.

Also, while it is nice that Mat finally got some thanks, he is as much an ingrate as the SGs are. Just because he was mostly saved by AS doesn't mean that he gets off the hook. "But they have some ulterior motives" is as much a rationalization as "we almost got out ourselves, and here he was, mocking and berating us". Will Mat actually thank Moiraine for the many times she saved his posterior and he was rude to her in return? Not IMHO. He'll save her in turn and that will be that.
Oh, and Verin didn't get any thanks from him either, despite escorting him to the WT when he was mortally sick and participating in his Healing.

Another funny tidbit is the complete lack of indignation over Thom calling Avi "child", whilst when AS called somebody "child" or "boy", even when they were much older than Thom, brought it on in spades ;).
Re: Elayne's adoption of the word, I bet that it was Nyn's influence, rather than AS and Nyn has been doing it since before she left Emond's Field.
John Massey
147. subwoofer
@Rob you missed some near one-liners...
Moiraine: Dresses, dresses, dresses. Oh, so pretty and frilly. One for balls, and one for summer nights...

Siuan: Cut two leg holes in that sack over there. Fine.

Liandrin: Tell me what you know!! Or by the Great Lord, whom I love, I swear I will rip you limb from limb!!

Moiraine: What are you doing?

Liandrin: Nothing. Go Light.

Nut job gamers. This is what people think of when hiding out in their parents basement playing video games all day online:) Almost tempted to give up the rat-race and join them. Wife would tar and feather me though. But if I am not going out in public... what's a few feathers?

@OwMasha, well, you made it. Glad you cowboyed up and decided to jump in:) Don't worry, we've all had our shots... mostly. There is a small membership fee though... er it is a bottle of scotch sent to Pablo Defendini c/o TOR... feel free to forward any samples my way though;)- Funny you should worry about walls-o-text as Rob posted War and Peace after you:)

@Blind- you could have gone rollerblading... Seoul was not flat, me and a buddy took out some of the littler parked cars because our brakes did not work so well on all the hills. And yes, 713 is fine. Let 'er rip.

John Massey
148. subwoofer
Sorry- but this is a classic pot and kettle moment. Was reading down the Atari line and this just about floored me- will now go plug in the amp...


Demandred: Rahvin is dead, Great Lord.


Demandred: Great Lord, do you mean one currently called Dragon, or another in a previous Age, who might be a female Dragon, or barring that, a female substitute Dragon? I refuse to believe that a female Dragon couldn’t exist…


Demandred: Sorry, Great Lord. I don’t know what I was thinking.

Dark Lord: So, tell, me Demandred….Damn, my amp…it’s lost power.

Demandred: I’ll plug it back in, Great Lord. How about now?

Dark Lord: SO tell ME Demandred….NOW it’s SWITCHING back AND forth. THAT’S no GOOD…

Demandred: How about now?

Dark Lord: Was ist los? Ich kann nicht normal sprechen. Ich spreche wie ein verrueckter Mensch.

Demandred: How about now?

Dark Lord: ImspeakingtoofasthelpstopmefromspeakingsofastIcantstopthisIcan’tbreathe…

Demandred: How about now?

Dark Lord: 01111001100001100000111111010100110010010.


Dark Lord: Stop that.


Dark Lord: Do not do impressions of me, Demandred. I am the Great Lord. Those who do impressions of me will die.


Dark Lord: I’ve never called Ishamael my favorite fancy pants boy.


Dark Lord: You cannot command me. I command you.


Dark Lord: I should have the big voice.


Shaidar Haran: Yes, Great Lord.

Dark Lord: No! Shaidar Haran, he’s impersonating me! Don’t get him lemonade.

Shadar Haran: But He’s got the big voice, Great Lord. How can I refuse?

Moghedien: Hey, what’s going on?



Great Lord: Okay, I don’t really sound like that. Shaidar Haran, back me up.

Shaidar Haran: Actually, you do kind of sound like that. And it does look a little like a big toilet. Here’s your lemonade, Demandred.


Dark Lord: Now I’m getting mad.


Moghedien: Good one.


Moghedien & Shaidar Haran:


sandi vogel
149. sinfulcashew
145. Master AT
I remember walking home holding the neighbors hand and him carrying the offending board behind me, still attached to me.
I went to the ER and also remember watching the doctor over my shoulder(I was on my stomach), as he gave me a shot to numb me-self. It hurt worse than the stitches.
It only makes sense that it works that way. Once the numb-shot is working then the rest shouldn't hurt. Right? Interesting memories.
Tricia Irish
150. Tektonica
Thank you RobM, Sub and Blind! I needed that! I bookmarked them for when I need a good belly laugh. I agree with some of their sarcasm....felt like that several times. Too funny!

OwMasha@139: Welcome! And thanks for the survey contribution. I continue to compile and hope to do something with the results, but even with severe editing, the data might need it's own thread....maybe if we get a Shiny New General Discussion Thread........

I agree with what you said about sensing a dichotomy with the girlie/guy thing. Me too, thus the question..... (I LOVE maps!!)

Ow!!!! I put a nail through my bare foot once, but I think the bum might be more painful. Did you have to get the tetanus booster as well?

I have something serious to post, honest, but I"ll do it on a different post.
sandi vogel
151. sinfulcashew
As usual, my sense of humor is less than I would like!
In reg. to RobM, I almost thought that that terribly looooong post was SPAM. Only the names of the perpetrators? helped me see that it wasn't.
And like I said my humor did not find much there.
The second one (Sub's) was humorous, though. Pretty funny too!
Perhaps a discourse on what makes something funny to one person and not to another should be discussed?
I am all for it actually!
sandi vogel
152. sinfulcashew
Yes, that one didn't hurt as it was after the initial one.
And maybe, one of these times I will get serious with the WOT subject again?
Tricia Irish
153. Tektonica
The below is from a lecture I heard about how Marcel Proust's Memories of Things Past altered Realism in modern fiction writing. I thought it was relevant given our recent (serious discussions) of Cads and Nynaeve, and really all our characters, as they grow and change over this large story arc......

Marcel Proust's Memories of Things Past

Usually when we are introduced to a character, we are given several pages of description, a portrait, and once we know that character, he is set into motion. But is this the way we get to know people? No. A portrait of someone we know has been built up gradually, bit by bit, over years of experience until it becomes something like a portrait, and it is always a process. Our friend might do something slightly surprising and we have to revise the portrait. The portrait is an end product, not a beginning, a process. Our experiences aren’t given to us in neat packages, they are built up slowly piece by piece over time. Only later, can the pieces of a character be fitted into something like a portrait.

Another technique of Proust’ is something critics have called “time sandwiches”. This is what I knew about that person then, this is what I see now, and then I put those two pieces together.
Ron Garrison
154. Man-0-Manetheran
Welcome OwMasha! “maps, which (as I found out at the state geography bee) is supposed to be a Boy Thing” That reminds me of a Roseanne joke. “Maps are a guy thing, because only a man can imagine an inch equals a mile.”

Rob & Blind: Thanks for sharing that find. The Elayne/Avi dialog on toh is hilarious. Actually, all of them are a hoot. And thanks, Sub, for the Demandred/GO dialogue.
Jacy Clark
155. Amalisa

Also, while it is nice that Mat finally got some thanks, he is as much an ingrate as the SGs are. Just because he was mostly saved by AS doesn't mean that he gets off the hook. "But they have some ulterior motives" is as much a rationalization as "we almost got out ourselves, and here he was, mocking and berating us". Will Mat actually thank Moiraine for the many times she saved his posterior and he was rude to her in return? Not IMHO. He'll save her in turn and that will be that. Oh, and Verin didn't get any thanks from him either, despite escorting him to the WT when he was mortally sick and participating in his Healing.

Maybe it has something to do with where the bar was originally set. Mat started out as whiny, sarcastic and snarky. He has become, not really entirely of his own accord, awesome. But he wouldn't be Mat if he didn't retain some of his less desirable characteristics.

It doesn't make it right, I'll grant you, but for him to behave otherwise would make him less, well, Mat.

@OwMasha... Welcome to the party! Snacks/drinks in the bunker! Have fun!

@blind, RobM2 and sub - wow... I'd forgotten all about the Atari forum's "tribute" to the WoT. Funny stuff!
Julian Augustus
156. Alisonwonderland
he is an immature scoundrel who shamesly (sic) forces himself on women and is riding on the back of the Dragon Reborn bandwagon.

That this view of Mat has persisted for so long at this point in the series can be blamed mostly on Egwene. She was at the Battle of Cairhien with Mat and Rand when Mat fought and killed the leader of the oh so scary Shaido Aiel, Couladin. She was also present in Cairhien with Moiraine and Mat(when he brough news of Morgase's death) when Moiraine recounted Mat's exploits leading the BotRH into skirmishes against Gabriel's forces in Andor.

Yet, Egwene makes no effort whatsoever to correct the other girls' misperception of Mat when they all meet in Salidar and in fact helps perpetuate the myth. As an aside, also remember the same character flaw in Egwene when Gawyn was railing about Rand having killed his mother; she could have told Gawyn what she knew about the whole incident and, at the very least, made him more open minded about Rand, instead of letting him persist in his dangerous delusion.

The fact that Egwene, even when she knows the true facts, would not defend friends she grew up with and would allow outsiders to form mistaken and potentially dangerous impressions of said friends, to the detriment of her friends, is one of the many reasons I have a low low opinion of Egwene, no matter what heroics she performed in TGS.

To my mind, her lack of defence of Mat and Rand on the instances above has several possible explanations:

1. she is stupid, and unaware of changes in the people around her. This is obviously incorrect.

2. she feels no loyalty whatsoever to her childhood friends and doesn't care how they are perceived by outsiders. Doubtful.

3. she is completely self-centered and has no interest in anything that doesn't advance her own agenda, even to the detriment of her friends. Possible, but not very plausible.

4. she knows the truth, but wants to exploit those wrong perceptions for her own reasons. Possible, but I don't see how.

5. the author gave her these character flaws for the sake of the story. Most likely, but the result is I tend not to like her character because of those very flaws.
Bonnie Andrews
157. misfortuona
Hey everybody, great catch up reads today. You all have been busy.
I'm loving the 'back when' stories.
SinfulCashew Owww.

So did anyone else ever hide a serious injury because they were so embarassed by how they got it?
Nope not sharing, just wondering?

OwMasha - Welcome, we love new voices, and the bunker is snake and spider free, thanks to Amalisa and Zero. :)
Oh and did you say maps? I love maps. Geography major actually.

The Atari stuff was great guys, nice addition.

Torie you see where the lack of a general discussion forum has taken us? And hey did you do something different with your hair? You look great today.

Mis-no nothing WOT related today, so Go Team Mat
John Massey
158. subwoofer
Now, just to be clear, I am a Mat fan- haven't joined the Band, I consider myself a member at large. That being said, in regards to the way Eggy views Mat, a few things have to be taken into consideration.

First off, with what Tek(thank you muchly:)} provided us we have to keep in mind that many of Egwene's memories of Mat are growing up with him and much of the mischief he would get into on a regular basis with various adult figures, not to mention the village Wisdom Nynaeve, and Eggy must have seen Mat at his worst as Eggy was Wisdom-in-training.

This also speaks to much of the way Nynaeve relates to Mat, Perrin, and Rand. Her view and the reason Ny set out in the first place was to watch over the "boys", protecting the members of her village. There is a lot of water under the bridge from the point where they leave Two Rivers to where they are now. I do know that it is hard to change the way you think and relate to some people after so many years of dealing with them a certain way. Ny and Eggs are human.

Second, Eggy does not have the advantage of us being an all seeing eye in the sky. She lives by her five senses. And let us not forget that much of this series is based on either mis-communication if not outright lack of communication altogether.

I grew up in a time before internet and before cellphones. That has tainted my view of such things and I view many of the cellphones nowadays as toys and gimmicks and not much else. $100/month to make phone calls? Are you kidding me? for that kind of money I could sponsor 3 kids in World Vision. Cellphones also make it easy to have people get a hold of you when you don't want them do springing up new etiquette for dodging phone calls. I think if somebody wants me, they can find me, if not, I don't cure cancer, so it can't be the end of the world.

Same for internet. I lived in a world where door to door encyclopedia (Hi Free)salesmen were a real thing. If you needed to know something you'd crack open a book or go to the library and research. Now everything is at your fingertips. The many modern day conveniences are mind boggling. Twitter is a prime example of "do we really need to know every bit of minutiae" that happens in everyday life?

By that same token, WoT does not have these luxuries. Until recent discoveries come to light, carrier pigeon or horseback were the ways to get ideas spread. Heck much of Rand's time at the beginning of the series was spent wearing out the old shoe leather. Communication via gateway, skimming or in dreams were not thought of. There are not many reasons why these methods are not used, other than, like dinosaurs like me, WoTer's don't see the use for it just yet, or they are not visionary enough to incorporate what they do on a daily level.

So upshot is, we will have at least a couple more books, where this series may of ended years ago through the use of At&T or some other company.

John Massey
159. subwoofer
Incidentally, from here on it, I will be referring to Ny's battle with a certain female Forsaken as Nynaeve vs CUCAMONGA.

Maiane Bakroeva
160. Isilel
Alisonwonderland @156 -

Yet, Egwene makes no effort whatsoever to correct the other girls' misperception of Mat when they all meet in Salidar and in fact helps perpetuate the myth.

Egwene herself is honestly confused re: Mat's new status. Didn't she just realize that yes, Mat is a real general in her POV chapters of this book? While it is true that she was right there when Mat's exploits were told, she clearly missed the significance or whatever.
Maybe Lanfear's beat-up caused a bout of selective amnesia as well as those head-aches? Which would also explain her insufficient defense of Rand to Gawyn. From her POV it was clear that she really wanted to put Gawyn straight.
Or perhaps we should blame RJ for the slight screw-up there.

The more interesting question is why Avi, who actually has military training, experience and keen interest in military matters and who also would have heard all about Mat's exploits didn't correct the misconception.
Which really points towards the slight screw-up, because it is highly out of character.

But, then, who can we blame for _Mat's_ misconceptions? After all, he has as low an opinion of SGs as they of him. And he is every bit as ungrateful to _his_ saviors as they are to theirs. Pot, cattle, black, IMHO.
Janet Hopkins
161. JanDSedai
Thanks for the Atari site. I read a few lines, and immediately favorited it. Sub's selection had me laughing so hard, I couldn't breathe!

Count me in for maps, too! I had a friend in college who was so directionally-challenged, if we were in the student union building, he didn't know which door to go out to get to the main street, or which lead to the library. Of course, he always drove...

This saga is so long, because every event is fore-shadowed, Fore-seen, Foretold, dreamed and prophesied twice. It's no wonder the actual events are anti-clamatic.
John Massey
162. subwoofer
Sounds like the Harry Potter movie franchise. Sure the books were okay, but the movies have so much build up, there is no way that they could live up to the hype.

That being said, the sounding of the Horn was awesome, Dumai's Wells was awesome, Mat and his first big command was awesome, the taking of the Stone, the Scouring of the Shire er...Two Rivers rocked... So many good scenes that did live up to the hype. I could have almost snoozed through latter books but in my heart of hearts I know greatness is coming again...I just have to wait for it to come around in the Last Battle, via Lan and the Borderland Army.

Jacy Clark
163. Amalisa

...I just have to wait for it to come around in the Last Battle, via Lan and the Borderland Army.

From your mouth to Bela's ear...
Julian Augustus
164. Alisonwonderland
On my views about this chapter. I agree this chapter is a great one in a better-than-average book. This is not my favourite book by any means; that honour goes to TSR. And this is not my favourite chapter in this book. For some reason, I loved the confrontation between Elaine and the older AS in the Salidar embassy (coming up) and how she was able to wrest leadership of the embassy from Merrilile. I can't get enough of that chapter. If Leigh is talking about paradigm shifts, there's another doozy right there. It transformed Elayne from a diffident princess into the queen she will be and makes her later actions towards securing the Andor throne believable. I know many posters seem to hate Elayne (and love Nynaeve!!!!), but I would think even the most committed Elayne-haters would cheer her in that scene.
Barry T
165. blindillusion
I thought the Best One was the CoT recap:

Egwene: I'm off to do something.
Siuan: What?
Egwene: None of your business. Now, if memory serves, I gently ease my foot into the trap like this.

Rollerblading? Naw..not for me. I did have my Board...which worked on some of the streets outside Osan. In Seoul...well, nice places for a board, but we were not appreciated. Eh...don't get much love anywhere unless one's on the X-Games. Mountain Bikes were good as well. Fun times...especially coming across a fence with the cute little “Live Land Mines” placards.


Hmm, see, TvTropes is good for something...other than pulling you into about 4 hours of wandering...after all.

HA! Someone remembered Zero. When I looked at him and asked he wanted to go chase some spiders at the bunker, he went ballistic...of course...I was also offering him a know.
Thomas Keith
166. insectoid
RobM² @144: Hee hee... giant fiery toilet. The ISAM WoT kills me ;D

Sub @148: I figured one of you peeps would quote that one eventually. BAHAHAhahaha!!

Eh...I got nothin'. ;)

Alice Arneson
167. Wetlandernw
OwMasha @139 - Welcome!!! No way was that a rude, intruder-y wall of text!! Glad you're here and willing to jump in.

We've never done a poll on city/suburbs/rural childhood, so I can't answer that part, but there do seem to be a few of us rural types! For what it's worth in the two-bits department, I grew up very rural, so all the Emonds Field and back-country-kids-meet-the-wide-world stuff, along with all that crossing of open country where nobody lives, felt very familiar. I never thought about it before, but stories that are set entirely in cities have a lot less appeal to me, I think. Not too many fantasies are, that I can think of, but I think I often enjoy "leaving the city" scenes, at least more than "entering the city" scenes (unless there's a particular Awesome about the actual entry). It's not huge, but now that you mention it, it's there. Which is a little funny, since I've lived in the suburbs of Seattle for the last 20 years and more. Hmm.

On maps... I've always chuckled about that bit from The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe: "Girls can never carry a map in their heads." "That's because our heads have something in them!" I loved the lines, but it's also funny because I'm better with maps than my husband. Then again, I do think it's a little unusual; I have girl friends who can only give (or get) directions in terms of left/right, never compass points. (Which drives me nuts, because it assumes that I'll be going the whole route exactly as they give it to me, when I might be starting somewhere else.) As a generalization, I think the map affinity is more or less true, but certainly not in all cases!

subwoofer @158 - Well said! Our "eye in the sky" too often makes us forget that these kids are just ordinary (or semi-ordinary, anyway) people who can't entirely forget 20 years of "history" with a person just because of a few recent events.
Bonnie Andrews
168. misfortuona
Well said my friend. By the way I still find myself heading to the book shelf when we have a question come up. Of course I don't have the internet running 24/7 and it's still faster.

Amalisa Hi waves Was just thinking about you.

Hey Blind cant forget Zero.
I don't like spiders. Really nothing much creeps me out except those multi-legged sneaky little beggers. Well them and ants, but that's only because of a particularily realistic dream in which I woke up screaming and thinking I was still covered in them. shivers

Mis-cell phone less
Tricia Irish
169. Tektonica
Funny about the maps.....what is the correlation to Fantasy there??? Travel? Adventure?

I love maps. I have a drawer full of Nat'l Geographic maps....and Atlas's old and new, and I could spend hours looking at them! My husband is also directionally challenged. There was a bit of a showdown our first year of marriage over that....27 years later, he trusts me. When I first moved to New York City after school, I would come out of the subway and look at the shadows to tell what direction I was NYC friends were amazed! Nothing like being lost in a cornfield to figure out the sun!
Barry T
170. blindillusion
Sorry, but after an unfortunate day at the park, Zero dislikes ants at well. In fact, he won't get near small piles of dirt. Poor guy. Took honey and some steak to calm him down. Favored his forward right paw for awhile too.

Still loves that ball though.

Blind-to WoT related material for the moment.
John Massey
171. subwoofer
Maps... had to deal with them after we got our butts kicked by our Master Corporal. I can find all sorts of things with a compass, a flash light and two hands...

Love big cities, love heading out to the boonies. I identify with WoT as equally as ShadowRun or Discworld, or the Bazaar. Plop me in any situation and I can deal.

Yup I "lost" my company cell phone for awhile as it was really honking me off that my work could get ahold of me when I was not working. Now I have the right to flagrantly ignore the thing if I deem it not important... which happens most of the time. I am not a big fan of the things and I am not one of those people who rack up 2000 mins a month. I don't know anybody, or any group of people I want to talk with that much- um... excluding everyone here, of course- frankly, if it was that important, I'd hop in my car and drive to see them.

Our world is ever shrinking, yet the opportunities for actual human contact grow less and less. People would rather tune into their smart phones and unplug from the world around them. I would rather tune in to the world and let tech do it's own thing. It is there to make our lives better, not take it over.

I have been whispering to Bela a lot these days. Let's get this party started. TG is coming!

@Blind- no problem, should this ever get off the ground, we have a standing darts game going on. Hopefully not during Lent;)

Ohhh! My favorite maps are the ones in the Indiana Jones series- where the plane is flying and it becomes a red line on a map... Ah, those were such good movies:)

172. AndrewB
Re favorite scene: In TFoH when Mat saves the Tearans and Cairens (sp?) from destruction by the Aiel. I thought that scene was well written.

Re the big sceen/small screen version of the WoT. I agree that a movie version would ruin our mental image of this series. There is so much material in each books that a single movie would not do it justice.

The only way to capture the series in a video medium would be to do what HBO is apparently doing with George RR Martin's Fire and Ice series: each book will be spread out over a series. This will allow small but important scenes to be included (For example, a movie of TEotW, would most likely not include the scene where Elays, Egwene and Perrin meet and stay with the Tinkers.)

As for production, I do not think a live action series would be effective. Rather, I would prefer the type of production that was used in the movie 300 (I believe it was in CGI, but I am not sure). That technology would be preferable to straight animation.

I appolgize if any of the above points were previously addressed. I did not have the chance to read Leigh's most recent post until early this evening. Thus, I read the first few posts and the last 15 posts or so.

Thanks for reading my musings,

p.s. after seeing the highlights of the New Orleans Superbowl parade for the Saints, everytime I read the chapter in LoC when Perrin is leaving the city to recapture Rand, I will think of the Saints parade when I read the descriptions of the celebrations in that chapter.

Edit -- re maps. I find that a map in a fantasy book helps me understand the plot better and visualize any travels that the characters make (be it inside a city if the map is of a city or from region to regio if it is a map the general countryside). May all-time favorite maps in fantasy novels were in David Eddings Belgarion and Elenium series. The detail in those maps were extraordinary.
Barry T
174. blindillusion
Hmm, Sword of Truth TV series...I've seen about 7 episodes...I'm still trying to figure out in what way the show has anything to do with the books...other than the character's names.

Eh, given good direction...and a screen-writer who has actually read the books...I could see WoT hitting the small screen. After all, with the way Hollywood is these's bound to happen eventually.

There's only so much to re-make or recycle. And there's seldom anything "new" or "original". At some point some studio will see WoT and think, "Well hells yeah!"

Guess it depends on how well GRRM's series does....
Thomas Keith
176. insectoid
AndrewB @172: 'Twould be Tairens and Cairhienin, but we understand you just fine. :)

Re: maps... I am an aficionado of road maps and signs, and older maps in particular (you know, like those old California maps that still show mostly US highways). I must be "Living in the Past". ;)

EDIT: Post 0xB0 FTW! ::foolish grin::

Juan Avila
177. Cumadrin
whew. after my early comments on Friday i decided it was time i toned down my break from everything i took to catch up on the re-read blogs, and when i finally get a chance to check the new comments a few hours ago, well, let's just say i left off at about comment 48. frankly i'm glad it's weekly blog posts, cause i am not the single-minded WoT fanatic i once was who spent 13 hours a day on a WoT forum and playing a WoT-based browser game.

i've since graduated to internet space ships, which is hella fun, but neither here nor there.

but i mean, blood n ashes that was a lot to catch up on. worth every second, you guys are great; i expect if from devout WoTholics. but i only undocked from my station once today for about 5 minutes cause i was busy scouring the net for vids (a lil project i started last night) and then reading comments here this evening.

so first things first, i want to comment on the two big topics that have come up (IMO) while i've been away. on everyone's background/childhood musing and what, if any corallaries between them and sci-fi/fantasy fandom: well there was a lot said, too much for me to comment on people specifically, i'm not that kind of person and/or i don't know you all well enough. but it was all very entertaining, and god my noggin-cogs a'turnin', which is all anyone can ask about good conversation. i will say it all brought to mind several memories of my own, from when i first picked up a fantasy novel (Hobbit) to stick fishing for rainbow trout with my own caught worms and my first best friend in the small creek that ran by our houses. we lives 5 1/2 miles outside a small town in central WA, we were who we both had to play with. not complaining of course, those were good times, fishing, catching grasshoppers and snakes, working up the nerve to pet the others neighbors' horses, playing in an old barn, and running up and down the sheer side of the mountain behind our houses where the train went by daily.

my i had forgotten some of that... *tear*

but eventually forest fires made my mom and i move. her decision of course! i would've never abandoned my billy goat by choice! NEVER!!! and the other animals too...

so yeh, anyway. on the atari forum WoT recap/tribute thing. EL-OH-FRIGGIN-EL (at this moment i've only read the New Spring and what was posted earlier in comments; very distracted at the minute). very nice, i will prolly save that with my copy of the abridged EotW on my pc, which was what i at first thought was being linked, or something like it. i will then show it to my friend who is, i believe, still at book 5 in his first read of WoT, last i checked, like i showed him the abridged EotW. that was a good msn messenger chat, many 'LOL's or more complicated synonyms of it.

that brings me to an idea i had about people asking about a chat for this. i need to check it the method i'm thinking of to make this doable is still up, so excuse me a moment...

*elevator music*

it is. Gabbly is still going strong. very nice! only problem for me is it doesn't work with my main browser, Opera, but that's no big deal, that's why i have Firefox and (Light help me) IE for backup. therefore as long as Gabbly isn't blocked by some strange tech problem like a firewall or what have you, there is a very easy and free way to chat with others who would be browsing the same site. therefore, anyone who can make it can meet me in gabbly chat here using preferably Firefox, IE, or safari web browsers. i will make it a habit to be there all the time i'm online, so at least someone's there most of the time. i may be afk or busy in a space battle or something, but i will be there in some way when at all possible.

incidentally, this service was what i used to chat with friends in real time who i played that WoT-based browser game with that i mentioned earlier. oh, good times there as well; i will show people interested old battle records i still have where i won very awesome duels (for a mostly text-based game) and found heron-mark blades and myrddraal armor and other awesome loot. heh, i also remember chatting with my best friend in that game about my clan (Fists of Heaven) and another, more powerful clan's (White Tower) big hubbub about one of their leaders cheating somehow i can't really recall at the moment.

*chuckle* sorry to ramble, but at least i came full circle in my post, in a way, and hopefully solved everyone's cries for a chat, unless this just fails epicly in my face, or the lovely awesome people at Tor come to the rescue. but i'm trying!
Sandy Brewer
178. ShaggyBella
So to add my 2 cents...I grew up outside a small Oregon town, horses, chickens, fishing, rockhounding, garden etc. Kind of a tomboy. I even have a nice scar from watching treehouse builders hammer with a large rock. My Mom was in the SF book club, Alfred Hitchcock mag, etc. I read a lot, all kinds. I still have a box of old Star Trek & Star Wars books out in the garage. As a kid, I enjoyed Twilight Zone, Outer Limits & the Apollo missions. Later Star Wars, Princess Bride, the X-Files, & Lost (first season). I did love the LOTR movies. For computer stuff, I like the Guild Wars MMO. (no monthly fees...I'm cheap) I also love maps

I didn't do WOT until last summer...maybe it was the covers??? Anyhow I have been listening and re-listening to the series and learning from this group & the Wiki. At first I was irritated with all the AS plot lines that took time away from the 2 Rivers folks, but now I see it is a big world out there with lots going on and many more story lines to follow. Maybe this would work as a series, but hard to have so many actors involved.

My MM avatar is so small, but even has tiny to make at the MM website.
Janet Hopkins
179. JanDSedai
I would love to see a cinematic version of WOT, but I am afraid that it would read like the ISAM parodies to the uniniated.

You would totally be missing the tension between POV perceptions and reality, which is an integral part of the characterizations.
Barry T
180. blindillusion
Rules for 713

1) As many people can play as want.
2) Each player gets one throw with their non-dominant hand...highest number throws first.
3) Have to throw for a Positive Number, then a Negative Number...And So On.
4) Game Ender is the Bullseye.
5) But...the Bullseye can be either a 7 or a 13, depending on the Number you need.
6) You do your own math.
7) If you go over 713...whatever you go over by you loose that many points.
8) A key ingredient is definitely alcohol. Trust've never seen funny 'til you've seen a bunch of the inebriated trying to do that much math.
9) There is a score-keeper...usually the Designated keep things legit...but it's not a good idea to ask him/her your score...oh, sure, you can...but it costs you a shot...DD's choice what you get. =)
10) Fun Times.
11) Only better game is Killer...but that can take forever.
12) Opps, forgot the most important Rules...go out of go back to 0.
13) Miss the Bullseye when it's your only go back to 0.

So...who's up for some Darts?
181. katgordon
:chortling on the inside: as I type, am in the bed with the mate and dogs hoping I don't wake him/them but unable to stop reading, now that I've caught up again.
Reading your post put me in similar danger! laughs!
182. katgordon
...and just wrecked it with the mini re-read of the atari WOT. Ended up gasping and twitching in a life and death attempt to not burst into laughter/wet the bed/wake up the mate.
Fail on two of three (although it was close there).
Just got the hook and the "are you still UP???" G'night!
Rob Munnelly
183. RobMRobM
lsiel @160 - you've hit the nail on the head with an issues we've discussed in past re-reads. Avi and Eg - especially Eg - were in Carhein when the members of what became the Band were touting Mat's battle skills, both at the Battle of Carhein and later in the battles with Rahvin's troops at the border of Andor. Eg was present when Moiraine herself spoke to Mat about his personal role in the Andor battles. So I was always mystified by Eg's apparent ignorance of his abilities during Mat's visit to Salidar. Examination of the text makes clear that she is not keeping quiet with knowledge she possesses but actually is unaware that Mat has a personal reputation for battle skills.

I'm at pretty much the same point you are. Either she has aftereffects of the Lanfear injuries that affected her memories on a short term basis; or she was too self-involved with her own issues to pay attention to what was in front of her face. I'm reluctantly leaning towards the former view because we haven't seen her reach this level of cluelessness about anything else in the WoT series. Either that or she just mentally wrote it all off to ta'veren luck and moved on.

But you raise a good point re Avi - she should have known these things too. But...I don't recall her being in the room when Mat was involved in discussions in Moiraine about these matters, so perhaps she gets a pass.

Tricia Irish
184. Tektonica
What is with the maps thing? Does everyone on this site love maps?

Insect@176: I have some wonderful old Atlases with many countries that do not exist anymore, and others who are now independent of their former Colonialists and have new names....really interesting. An old globe like that too....too cool to part with.

On Egs/Avi/Mat memory issue.....could our beloved RJ actually made a slip here? It just seems so out of character for Egs to not defend Mat, knowing what she should know about him from Carhein/Moraine.
185. MasterAlThor

Now that is just an image I don't want. I am so sorry that happend to you. Ouch!!!! I can't stand to see women/girls hurt.

This might make me a bit of a sexist, but I will make no apologies for how I feel. You guys aren't porcelain but I was raised it's my job to protect you like you are.

How do I say this??? You are absolutely right about the double standard we have applied to the "child" calling.

I was so deep in my view that I didn't even see it. Thank you for pointing out my hypocrisy. I will try to be more mindful of it from now on.

Bonnie Andrews
186. misfortuona
Good morning
Hi Tek. Yep love the new Avatar!!
Anyway Maps, gotta have em. None of the fancy GPS things for me. Give me paper and a compass and off I go. Getting lost can be half the fun on a long trip.

More general underestimating, underappreciating for our boy Mat, at least by the girls. Good thing he's got Brigit.

checked out your Gabbly thing at like 5am, but nobody was around it even said you were asleep. Could be interesting if it works right.

Mis-off to begin another fun filled Monday
Bonnie Andrews
187. misfortuona
To the Committee
Thank you so very much for granting us a new General Discussion page. We need it very much, so much so that I was unable to post this thanks on tGS thread.

We love the WoT, TOR, and especially the beautiful and gracious Torie.


By the way everybody Great News.
188. MasterAlThor
Good Morning to you Mis-off to begin......

Aren't you a westlander? What are you doing up so early?

We got a little bit of snow out here in Michigan and my sons school day was cancelled. So I am at home with the yungins.

Did you hear? We get a new area to play in starting this afternoon.
Tricia Irish
189. Tektonica
Thank you Thank you Thank you, Torie, Pablo, the Committee, Tor et al......

We do so appreciate your generosity! We will do our utmost to be intelligent, erudite, insightful, humorous, irreverent and verbose. (We will also buy lots of books and recommend Tor to everyone we know. Promise.)

Really. Thank you. We love this community. You ARE the best!
Tricia Irish
190. Tektonica

I checked out the Gabby thing too. Signed up but have no idea how this works. I'm very new to the cyber world. What a time waster! Love it.

So how does it work? You just leave it on in the background somewhere? And it notifies you if someone else logs in? Then you type to each other? I feel so dumb sometimes.....but this old dog is willing to learn new tricks! Gotta burn new synapses to keep the brain working.
Bonnie Andrews
191. misfortuona
I heard and it's a marvelous thing!!
And yes I am a westerner, but it was still after nine by the time I posted. Should have been long gone, but I don't work Mondays this time of year, so it's my clean up after the weekend day instead.

Today I get to wear out the F5 button though.

Mis-twitchin again
Tricia Irish
192. Tektonica

Now that is just an image I don't want. I am so sorry that happend to you. Ouch!!!! I can't stand to see women/girls hurt.

This might make me a bit of a sexist, but I will make no apologies for how I feel. You guys aren't porcelain but I was raised it's my job to protect you like you are.

Rand! Hello, Rand! Do you see it???? LOL.
(You sound like a gentleman!)
Barry T
193. blindillusion
I was amazed...that Gabbly thing actually came through my Firewall here at work. Odd that. Just more ways to burn tax payer money I suppose. [i]You all do realize you're paying me to play here at TORdotcom...right. But then again...I'm paying myself too. =)

Oh well...looking forward to the GD...heh?...Thread appearing this afternoon.
Marcus W
194. toryx
OwMasha @ 139:

Welcome to the fun! Don't worry at all...there are several of us who have a tendency to do long posts (myself definitely included) and you're not going to be bitten for it.

And that makes me wonder - are there more farm/out-of-city kids among the WoT fans here than, say, in the average population? And does knowing what it's like to live in the open make getting into this kind of fantasy easier or more appealing?

That's a good question. I've been noticing that tendency myself. Like so many others, I grew up in a rural environment, spending most of my summer days outside playing or doing chores. When the weather didn't cooperate there wasn't much else to do other than grab a book and read.
On the other hand, I was one of the few in my age group who read science fiction and fantasy so I'm not sure if there's any corresponding connection there.

misfortuona @ 157:
So did anyone else ever hide a serious injury because they were so embarassed by how they got it?
Nope not sharing, just wondering?


This doesn't apply at all, but I used to step on nails on a fairly regular basis. I must have been blessed with an iron constitution, however, as I never said anything to any parents (just pried the nail out with a hammer or wrench, washed the wound and slapped on a bandaid) and never did get any blood poisoning.

Alisonwonderland @ 164:
I know many posters seem to hate Elayne (and love Nynaeve!!!!), but I would think even the most committed Elayne-haters would cheer her in that scene.

Actually, I didn't really think it was a particularly strong moment of growth for Elayne. As I read it, she wasn't particularly contrite or regretful about how she treated Mat. Instead, she was embarrassed that her actions made her look bad in the company of her Warder and her Near Sister. The following chapters where she agonizes over her apology to Mat and trying to keep her cool with him indicates to me that she hasn't changed inwardly at all; she's just trying to appear more gracious.

Tektonica @ 169:

I'm male so maybe this just fits the pattern but I love maps myself. I've got a very large box full of them in my basement. And Google Earth is one of the best applications EVER.
Bonnie Andrews
195. misfortuona
Re Gabbly
I've tried using it, but it seems to be beyond my understanding. Each time I refresh whatever I've said disappears.

Barry T
196. blindillusion
From the 2 seconds I looked at the program it appears you have to open the it through the link...but after that you can't do anything else with that Tab, i.e., you'd need to open a new do any refreshes on TOR or do any other surfing.

Umm, hope that helps.
Bonnie Andrews
197. misfortuona
I'm working it out with Cumadrin now.
You have to use links to navigate while it's up. If you refresh or change the url it breaks the connection and things go wierd. So far though we're managing to talk.

Mis-computer illiteracy is a disability
198. MasterAlThor

I know, I know. I do see it but I cannot help myself. My wife is not allowed(thats right I said allowed) to shovel snow or cut grass. It isn't that she cannot do it, she has the ablility, it is just that my old school ways will not allow me to allow her to do it.

Hmm is this Gabbly thingy an new way to chat. Like real time?

I with you Tek, I am such an old dog when it comes to this newfangled stuff with shiny word box thingy. But I am willing to try it.

199. OldWoman
I am a map lover myself. I was the navigator in the family and sat shotgun in my Grandma's car. Not a rural person but a big city gal. I rode the streetcar downtown to the library by myself at 5 yrs old.
My first fantasy series was at 5, Freddy the Pig series of talking barnyard animals. I think all very young literature is very fantasy related. Then when I was 12, I found a box of my Dad's books in my Grandma's garage and read all his Tarzan, Mars, Jules Verne epics that summer and there was no looking back.
Read Andre North, nee Norton stuff and all the classics...Clarke, etc. Double books from 2nd hand stores.
I spent my 14th summer at my Aunt & Uncles sheep ranch but disappeared daily with my books. Used to make ppj and climb a tree in the orchard and ignore my Aunt's calls to help churn butter, can stuff, etc, not my cup of tea at all.
Yeah for WoT stuff, my favorite epic series. I relate most to Aiel ethics. I like to challenge myself. I'll be 70 next year and plan to live long enough to finish the series.
Thanks to all of you, I am re-enjoying this series and every re-read adds to my understanding of the complexities of RJ's writing. Too much fun.
Wall o text, sorry.
Heather Porter
200. Bym1971
OK, I haven't had the time to read through all the comments, so forgive me if this has been said previously....

Leigh, when you talk about filming this scene and the logistics of switching from Old Tongue to, well, English, the scene that came to my mind is a scene in "The Hunt for Red October." When Sean Connery's character goes into his cabin and finds the other guy there and they start speaking in Russian -- then they pan into a close-up on the other guy reading the Bible and he switches to English. I remember LOVING that moment, for why I don't know.

So now in my head I hear Birgitte saying in the Old Tongue, "What language do we speak, Hornsounder?" with that smirky look on her face -- and then we get a close-up on Mat, so we can see the precise "A-HA" moment.


Thanks, Leigh!
Sam Mickel
201. Samadai
My first fantasy series was the Chronicles of Narnia when I was 6 or 7( still have those paperbacks). The First book I purchased myself was E.T. and this book titled Exit Earth( the planet is doomed and ships are made to take some people off of Earth, as all I remember about it.) A friends father let me read Lord of the Rings and The Sword of Shannara and I was hooked into fantasy from then on.

All of those funny things that Sub and RobM posted. There is a link to them in my bookmarks under shadow_jak_rising The Shadow Rising post 10
Juan Avila
202. Cumadrin
well. caught up on the overnight's comments now. have had some chat with Mis, blind and MAT, and i saw your message from early this morning Tek, although i was in bed at the time (phaw! :P as i was writing this tek relogged into gabbly for a few minutes and we chatted briefly. good stuff). so Gabbly is working well, the problem is more you guys. which i expected. takes time getting used to tech hocus pocus, and several of you people are old. i mean that in the most polite, don't-hit-me way, of course. you know i love you all... platonically.

so here's the lil catch i didn't feel like cluttering up my last post with about Gabbly. the link i gave above is opens gabbly on the tor homepage. Gabbly is somewhat limited in how it stays connected, though. while on the link i gave, you can browse tor just fine via clicky links on the site. hell i think, but am not sure, that you can go to other sites providing they are linked somewhere on tor. but you cannot change the url of the page i linked, (ie ) in the address bar without breaking the connection. the same goes for even simply refreshing the page, altho that just restarts gabbly and will put you back at the tor homepage.

the best and simplest soluion, IMO, is to simply use a tab solely for gabbly at tor and browse on another. i literally don't use my gabbly tab for anything other than chatting with any of you guys who show up; that's more due to me having to use gabbly on firefox, when my main browser is opera, but it amounts to the same effect. anyway, i'm glad this didn't fall on it's face, it's just taken some time to get everyone on the same page (see what i did there) which is what i get for posting late last night instead of during the day, i suppose.
203. MasterAlThor

I have done the same thing. It is easier that way.

Check it out you guys. Cumadrin has done us a service.

Julian Augustus
204. Alisonwonderland
You didn't notice that my post at 164 was talking about a completely different (upcoming) chapter? Must have been some weekend!
Sam Mickel
205. Samadai
gabbly is blocked at my work so no can do.
206. MasterAlThor
Hey Torie,

How will we know when the new thread is up? Will it be just like when Leigh puts up a new post?

Marcus W
207. toryx
Alison @ 204:

Yep, you're right, I totally misread. My only excuse was that I'm not a morning person, especially on Mondays. :)

@ 206:

The original post from Torie said it'll be posted on the main page this afternoon.
Tricia Irish
208. Tektonica
Yup, you fit the profile. Can you imagine a 5 year old riding the street car/subway/even walking downtown by themselves NOW? Sad.
Maps....we ALL love maps! So odd......

What a wonderful age, geographic, experience and I'll bet career range we have here.

I love you, but I gotta say the word "allowed" made me gag a bit. Don't let Leigh hear you say that! I understand the male ego, and enjoy gentlemanly courtesies, but, oh, it's just a baaaaad word. No, I'm not going's all good.
Rob Munnelly
209. RobMRobM
@208 - sounds almost like MAT is from the Two Rivers - almost Randian or Perrinian.
Ron Garrison
210. Man-0-Manetheran
Afternoon all. Great news about the GD Thread!

Maps: I can't pass a used book store without a look-see. Big, thick fiction always grabs my attention, and if there is a map, then it definitely goes in the shopping cart! Probably sounds like a stupid criteria for book shopping, but it works surprisingly well for me. I've found some great stuff that I'm sure I wouldn't have found otherwise.

Reading all this personal history has been very interesting. I've remembered some things just from the stimulus of you all. After college I worked at UCLA for awhile. I rode the bus to and from work - 45 minutes each way - lots of time to kill. That was the first time after school that I began reading books that weren't "assigned." I began with Lord of the Rings and it changed my life. I enjoyed it so much it created an addiction to reading that pleasures me still.
211. sweetlilflower
So, I haven't posted in awhile, but I thought I would throw my two cents in concerning the relationship of SF reading and geographical upbringing. I grew up right outside Camp Legune in NC and it was not a huge city, but it was a city and I have always loved SF/F books. My all time favorite is the Hitchhikers "trilogy". Even to this day, I know that the trick to flying is "throwing yourself at the ground and missing" hahahaha

But, I was definitely a tomboy and have never been a "girly-girl", and will never be one!
Death to the color pink! ... Oh, wait, that hasn't happened yet ;)

And, I have excellent directional capabilities...and since everyone else has posted a little story, I will post another one...

I was trying to give directions to someone from interstate 85. I told her we were east of the interstate, and she said, I kid you not, "I'm not from around here...I don't know which way that is" I had to stop myself from being very rude.
Bonnie Andrews
212. misfortuona
Ooh yeah MAT, meant to give you a heads up on that A word earlier. I got a little choked up there as well. I think I know what you meant, but a well watch your back buddy.

Ellie Virgo
213. Egglie
Survey: I was a bit of a tomboy in that I spent a lot of time climbing trees and refused to wear skirts but I also loved anything pink and had many, girly things too. I grew up in the country, not the city, but there was no chance of hunting and skinning a bear in the UK.

My dad read me the Lord of the Rings as a bedtime story when I was about 5 (I was terrified of the black riders and didnt understand it all but I loved it). I got into fantasy more strongly when I was ill in my teens and couldn’t really do much other than lay in bed and read. Its great to be able to escape into another world when yours sucks.

Not really bothered about maps though – they just don’t do it for me.
Marcus W
214. toryx
On use of the word "Allowed":

If I even tried to stop my partner from doing something she wanted to do, even without saying "You're not allowed to..." I'd get my ass kicked. If I did use the A word, I'd be in real trouble. Justifiably. But naturally, I'd never do either thing, which is why we're happily co-habitational.

Of course, I was raised by a single mother who wouldn't put up with any of "that male chivalry nonsense." Backgrounds mean everything.
Barry T
215. blindillusion
Hmm. Maps:

Never really had anything to do with them until I joined the Army. Always been good at following directions. But now...give me a compass/map and I'm good.

As a we got lost in the woods we'd just walk 'til we hit a road. We'd usually know exactly where we were then.

Hmm. Allowed:

My wife pretty much raised herself from the age of 15. Don't really think I need to say anything else.
216. MasterAlThor

Let me also say there are certain things that I am not allowed to do.

I am not allowed to do any major cooking. I am not allowed to design the garden or the inside of the house.

You see my wife and I have a give and take relationship.

We are equals, but when it comes down to it I am first among the equals. This takes nothing away from my wife as she perfers it that way. It is kinda like Lan and Nynaeve. I have say when it's in public she has say when we are in private.


Edit: My aunt once told me that she is the neck and my uncle is the head. The head can't do anything without the neck. I view my relationship with my wife the same way.
Thomas Keith
218. insectoid
Mis @187 et al: Yay!! But I already ran out of obsequious flattery. ;)

What is all this Gabbly-gook? I spend enough time on here as it is. ;) (I did read your comments Cumadrin; I'm just being facetious.)

More on maps: I like Google Maps—it's very useful. However, my older brother is addicted to Street View. (He can't drive, so it's an interesting experience for him.)

*twitches subside*

D.I. Rock
219. FeatherDancer
Of Sci-Fantasy, Tomboys, Girly Girls, wrenching, and roux.

I grew up in a semi-rural/suburban mostly boy neighborhood. I climbed trees, played baseball & football, wrestled, learned to shoot a rifle, and ride a motorcycle. I started picking up books because sometimes boys are really stupid. Stuff like trying to rooster tail mud into each others faces by spinning the rear bike tires. Expressly neanderthal.

I started reading in earnest in the 3rd grade when after I stumbled upon "A Wrinkle in Time" in the library of my 300 student K-6 elementary school. From there I read mostly Mythology (Greek, Roman, & Norse) for the next 2 or 3 years. After that I read pretty much anything. Thought inspiring and conscious rasing titles I remember loving from about 12 to 20 are "Stranger in a Strange Land, Autobiography of Malcolm X, LOTR & The Hobbit, Dune, One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest (my 13 year old is reading that now), To Kill a Mocking, Catcher in the Rye, The Good Earth, and anything by Stienbeck or Vonnegut. There are others, but that is what comes to mind. One of my top favorites of all time is actually a western "Lonesome Dove".

The boy neighborhood left it's mark in other ways too. As we got older I was always a spare hand for my brother, his friends, and one or two boy friends as they started fixing up old cars and motorcycles. I have helped rebuild engines, installed starters, and brakes, replaced piston rings, cleaned countless parts and of course changed the oil & done other minor maintnance tasks on most every car I've owned.

Then there's the flip side. A neighbor taught me to sew at 12 and I sewed a good many of my own clothes in HS and several special occasion pieces in later years. Made my own wedding dress - a very girly combination of canlelight satin and re embrodered lace. I am also a fairly good cook and that is a skill I learned mostly from my HS MVP football playing, ex Special Ops dad - my mon taught me how to change a tire and drive a stick shift.
Tricia Irish
220. Tektonica
Sounds like you and your wife have an agreement, an understanding, a working relationship, a division of duties. We all do, it just sounds so much better, whether implicit or explicit, you know. Whatever works.....;-)

Edit for Smiley Face.
craig thrift
221. gagecreedlives
Just a quick comment to throw my 2 cents in about this chapter. While its chock full of awesome my favourite bit is that Nynaeve states if they sent Thom and Julien to Mat they would go off carousing. Which is exactly what Birgitte does. God bless her.

Now to try and read the rest of the comments. And I see we have a shiny new thread to play with. Excellent

*Sigh* Not having net access outside of work is such a pain in the backside.
Tina Pierce
222. scissorrunner
How many of you ladies feel you were a Tomboy as a kid?

Yeah – I’m a tomboy. There were lots of girls around, but I was forever with my brother and his pals. We’d play army with the guys’ GI Joes & my Barbie (dressed in GI Joe fatigues held on w/ rubber bands), swing on ropes over the ravine (the rain gully – but what the heck – we were having an adventure!) And always got into trouble w/Mom for running around – yup – with scissors in my hands.Fell in love w/SciFi when my 3rd grade teacher handed me a copy of “A Wrinkle in Time”. (were we in the same school in 3rd grade FeatherDancer?)Signed up for all the shop classes I was allowed to (yeah, the old guidance counselor had all kinds of fits cuz girls needed to learn girl stuff, not guy stuff). Guys were always easier to hang around with! I do have a couple “girly” hobbies. I sew anything from work aprons for my husband to wedding gowns (love the gowns best though) and I make jewelry (but its chain maille, so guys love it too) Still haven’t gotten over being the shy one though. I’m here a lot, but hardly ever post. The gurus keep my mind spinning with theories and connecting the dots that I manage to miss!! Y’all have kept me sane through some crazy stuff lately. Keep it coming!!
D.I. Rock
223. FeatherDancer
222. scissorrunner

As someone that sews I find coolness in TWOT when the the style of dress in a given land is described. I often ponder on the mechanics and fabrics I would use to create a dress or coat from the picture in my head.

The ebook cover with Moirane gave me some cool ideas too. She is not dressed as I had pictured her but I liked the dress quite a bit.
Tina Pierce
224. scissorrunner
223. FeatherDancer

I love the dress descriptions too. I thought Moirane's dress on the ebook was more suited to a Tinker than her.Thats one of the things I love though. Each of us has an idea in our heads, and we get to share 'em here.
Alice Arneson
225. Wetlandernw
The thing about "allowed" is that, in all the examples given, it's a matter of tasks that must be done, and the one who says "you are not allowed to..." is in effect saying "I take responsibility for that, and I will do it whenever either of us think it needs to be done." My husband and I don't really use the word "allowed" but we definitely have our own areas of responsibility. My husband really doesn't mind if he's "not allowed" to clean the bathroom; it's just that I don't think he really knows how to get it properly clean, so that's "my turf" as it were. ;)

(Okay, one caveat: I'm not allowed to use the table saw when he's not around. He's afraid I won't think the project all the way through and I'll get stuck with the saw running, unable to disentangle myself and the wood, unable to shut the saw off... you get the idea. Much to my chagrin, he's probably right.)
Jay Dauro
226. J.Dauro
Scissorrunner & Featherdancer

Have you seen Linda's Embroidery over on the Thirteenth Depository? If you like the clothes, you may enjoy seeing what she has done.

OK, so I am not a girlie-girl or a tomboy. Male all the way.

Started science fiction in Junior High (for you younguns that's what we had before they started Middle School.) Wrinkle in Time, the Heinlein and Asimov juveniles, etc. When I couldn't find more in the juvenile section at the Library to interest me, I decided to try the "adult" section, which started a whole lot more. Started fantasy with Papa Tolkein, and read some others, but it didn't turn me on as much as sci-fi.

Still have most of the stuff I bought since then (40 years worth), and still re-read often. (Yes, lots of bookcases.)

When I started at the gym a few years ago, I needed audiobooks (how can anyone walk on a treadmill without an mp3 player?) Picked up [i][b]New Spring[/b] at the library. (After asking my niece, who highly recommended WOT.) Bought all of the audiobooks in short order.

Have now branched out to other fantasy, and still do my SF. The audiobooks make it much easier for me, as it's hard to find as much time to actually read as I did in school (What? You're not supposed to read Brunner in Biology class?)
craig thrift
227. gagecreedlives
Ok caught up in the comments. Nothing to useful to say but as is my want I will say it anyway.

Gentleman Farmer@26


Although once you brought it up I couldn’t stop myself from thinking of other Loony Tunes characters and WoT. And this is all I can think off with Moridin leading trollocs into battle


Well if Sub cant make it. Count me in. Hell I will even shout. Hey Sub maybe you could do the driving duties


Welcome and put me down for a semi urban upbringing with plenty of trips to my Grandmothers farm during school holidays.


Why you bring up some good points about Mats lack of gratitude I wonder how much he actually remembers. Does he know that Verin escorted him back to the White Tower or who actually participated in his healing?

More than likely I am just clutching at straws to defend a favourite :)
Tina Pierce
228. scissorrunner
226. J.Dauro

ooooo - missed that one! thanks
229. Freelancer
Oy, way late to the party once again. Too much RL getting in the way, some of it wonderful, some of it awful, some of it interesting, some of it tragic. You'll be surprised to know that that's all the detail I'm offering this time.

Nicely done, Leigh. I get the impression that you have an unusually high appreciation for this segment, though I could be mistaken.

I find it interesting that in the comments up to now, a number of folks simultaneously: Acknowledge how quickly and sincerely Elayne recognizes and corrects her own faults/misconceptions once she is aware of them and; Continue to refer to her as stuck up and self-absorbed via one or another epithetical reference. Oh well.

Way back in re-read time, when we were explaining our choices of most/least favorites characters, and I was itemizing Nynaeves reasons for not being adored, I referred to these specific chapters to prove that even with the truth jammed up her nose she wouldn't budge from her existing paradigms. Tanchico was used to show her berating others for minor examples of faults on which she has cornered the market, a serious blindness on her part if not downright hypocrisy.


What she said. Ditto. Just like that. Etc...


Ok, Cadsuane is nowhere to be found in this segment, wait until she's onscreen again. ::duck::


My thought exactly. Mat can't conceive of the idea that anyone is after him, because with the logic available to him, everyone is or should be after Rand. So the two fresh corpses at the Wandering Woman and their big empty trunk, and these street toughs with their oversized loot bag, don't cause him to add 2 + 2, while we're busy yelling at the book, "Watch your back, knucklehead!" The question to raise here, however, is who gave the order to kidnap him, and why? The standing order from Ba'alzamon/Moridin is to kill him or Perrin on sight, not to abduct them.


Yep, my Dad was a perfect example of that macho behavior. You knew that he expected thanks or some kind of recognition for anything he did. As soon as it was offered he was like, "What's all the fuss about?", but if it wasn't offered, you were instantly on the wrong end of a lifetime grudge as an ingrate.

And, you all took a hard left down Nostalgia Lane. I'm good with that. While I read everything Tolkien authored during my 13th year, fantasy wasn't a major thing for me, especially since anything else of that nature back then was just a bad imitation of Middle-Earth. What hooked me best was the pure sci-fi. Asimov, Bradbury, Van Vogt, Verne, Wells, etc. Through Jules Verne I looked into some of the classics (Melville, Hemingway), and however it happened, Poe. It wasn't until I happened onto Salvatore's Dark Elf Trilogy that I considered fantasy to have serious merit in the fiction world.


Oh, you did not bring up darts. ::hunts around for his Black Widows:: When you get tired of losing at Cricket, 301, 501, we can relax with Rotation. I don't drink, so any games requiring shots and I'm a spectator.


In your signoff, you said fun-filled, immediately followed by Monday. That's definately some kind of violation...


Did someone say verbose?

Finally, the Tordot staff truly rocks! There's no stopping us now, subwoofer's world domination plot just went on afterburner...
Tricia Irish
230. Tektonica
Well stated, as usual. Designation of duties, different areas of responsibility and expertise. Keeps the place running....doesn't matter what you call it. (I just have trouble with the concept that a individual can tell another individual what they can and cannot do, regardless of gender.)

Nice to see you again.....loved the alien! LOL. Always thought he was so odd, no mouth, that always disturbed me, back in the day.....

Good point about Mat not being able to remember who was helping him (to thank them)...he was pretty much "out of it" from Caemlyn on thanks to the dagger.

Nice to see you again too....I didn't discover Fantasy until the LOTR, then WOT, about 10 years or so ago. I started with SciFi as well, in college, Asimov, Heinlein, Herbert, Vonnegut?, but Fantasy got me back into books, as my kids got old enough that I had some free time again.
Barry T
231. blindillusion
No worries. 713 doesn't require drinking. Unless you ask the score-keeper for your score. And I'm pretty sure you'd be able to do the math without need of a score-keeper.

Last two times I played that game I was drinking Tea.

Believe it or not, it's seldom to never that I actually drink very much.

But one thing I really loved about Korea that it's near impossible to find in the States...real darts. Anyone who throws those plastic things and thinks they're playing darts...I feel sorry for them.
232. saintsfan4life
Re: Survey

I've been trying to remember when I first got turned on to SF/F since the survey was first posted. I grew up in New Orleans and spent most of my summers with various relatives all over the country (Chicago; Las Vegas; Natchez, MS; Atlanta). I would read just about anything I could get my hands on, which most of the time meant I was reading my mother's books (Doubleday Book Club) - stuff that was way too advanced for me (Sydney Sheldon, Judith Krantz, Harold Robbins).

I was always into SF/F in television and cinema but not really books for some reason. When I started college, a good friend introduced me to Piers Anthony and it was on from there. I picked up on the WOT series when I was about 21 or so (I'm 38 now).

I still will read just about anything except romance novels and those with strong military/war themes. I like Jodi Picoult, Stephen King, Elmore Leonard, Bebe Moore Campbell, Eric Jerome Dickey, Toni Morrison... you get the idea.

I wouldn't have described myself as a tomboy, but I'm definitely not a girly-girl either. Never tried to do mechanical stuff, but I'm pretty confident I could if I needed to. I'm usually the person my family calls to assemble furniture/ set up the dvd player/fix the computer. I definitely don't get called to cook much, although I'm pretty good with desserts (diabetic, go figure).

As for maps, I like them aesthetically, but I have a horrible sense of direction. I blame the city of New Orleans because nobody ever says to go east or west; it's always toward the river or lake, uptown/downtown. Now that I live in Chicago, I'm learning directions but I still get lost all the time: Mapquest and Rand McNally are my closest friends.

Sorry for this ridiculous WALL-O-TEXT
Heidi Byrd
233. sweetlilflower
I had a thought about the whole Avi and Mat thing. She knows Mat killed Couladin (sp?), but I don't think she really understands how much he knows about battle. Remember, to the Aiel, killing is the lowest form of gaining honor in battle, and just being able to kill someone doesn't mean that person can also be a great leader or even have much common sense. So, I don't think it is necessarily a slip in character for her not to defend Mat to the SGs. She is also quite young, since she is just now being trained in the OP, so she doesn't have a lot of wisdom and discernment at this point.
Thomas Keith
234. insectoid
J.Dauro @226: Does Linda (or anyone, for that matter) have a pattern for an AS shawl? My mom needs one of those. ;)

Free @229: Ah yes, Salvatore... I'm on Transitions now. (And boy has it slowed down! But I'm still enjoying.)

Janet Hopkins
235. JanDSedai
Yes, if we are going to have costumes for the Ball at JordanCon, we are going to have to get busy on our embroidery!

About maps-- leigh has said that she doesn't check the maps when she is reading a book. Yet she seems like such an intelligent person! (Just foolin' wit ya, leigh)

Foreshadowed, Foreseen, Fortold, and Dreamed
sandi vogel
236. sinfulcashew
Re: Embroidery.
The Tairen maze resembles Greek styles.
I love embroidery (even spelling it) I wanted one of the big machines just to digitize my own designs a few years ago.

Also, how about sharing quick receipes?
I have one for a 3 minute Magic Microwave Mug of Chocolate Chip Cake. The name takes more time to type than putting it together.
For a quick fix and addiction to the chippy thing, it is wonderful. Kind of brownie textured and I add walnuts.(anti cholesterol)

WOT stuff:
I really like reading the descriptions of the peoples looks, clothing, colors, etc.
I miss some of that in TGS. (BS?)
If Readers Digest took the series under its wing, a whole lotta stuff would be missed.
They would edit out all the colorful stuff! And the series would be very much shorter.
But the 'color' is half the fun!

Not into maps as there are no visuals to go with.
Although, I can read one and have navigated a few times with ex. I like Pictures of everything.

Edit: I only suggested the recipe thing to keep us busy until the twitching commences?
Linda Taglieri
237. Linda
@234 to 236:

On the TGS book tour, Maria of Team Jordan wore a Brown Aes Sedai shawl. It looked lovely. But it had a beaded fringe, which might have made it heavy and a bit uncomfortable.

Due to time and, more importantly, weight limitations (I'm travelling internationally) I'll be adapting a lightweight wrap into a shawl for JordanCon.

The Tairen Mazes look rather like the Greek key motif, but they are based on North African rug patterns.
Barry T
238. blindillusion
Maria of Team Jordan wearing her Brown Aes Sedai Shawl.

I've always thought this a great picture. Devotion to something as wonderful as WoT is always awesome.
Rob Munnelly
239. RobMRobM
Linda - I loved the Forced Attentions article from the CoS re-read. One of your better ones - nicely tied together all of those related threads from the same book in a way I hadn't thought of before. Rob
240. ValMar
Hi all!
Like someone above, I too begun with Greek mythology, the Illiad. Continued with adventure literature set all over. Also love history and geography. Besides a few comics (including the hobbit) my first contact with fantasy was with game-books (? where you make choices and that develops the "plot"). Then followed Conan, the Eddings.
And one faithfull Christmas 1998 I picked up TEOTW, in Bulgarian. The rest(up to no.8) were devoured the following months, in English. Finally read LOTR an year ago.

Even though I spend much of my early years and following summers with my grandparents up in the hills (think subsistence farming) I don't think it had to do with my liking of fantasy. It's the history and adventure and the search for new horisons. And the removal of the restrictions of our history.

Love maps! in general. If they hadn't persuaded RJ to include a map I wouldn't have touched the series with a barge pole. Given that it is a fantasy world and with all the travelling, different cultures, and complex plot branching into different locations, I find it inconceivable to be able to enjoy this series (and most other fantasy)to its full potential without maps.

Thanks for reading

PS also read and found very insightful the article on Forsed Attentions but commentary on that later on...
Marcus W
241. toryx
I mentioned before that I love maps and collect a large number of them, which is absolutely true. What I haven't said is that, like Leigh, I don't refer to the maps in fantasy books. I might look at them when I'm first weighing a new book in my hands, or turning those first delicious pages on the way to the first chapter (or prologue) but after that, the maps completely fall to the wayside.
242. ValMar
Well, the way I'm wired is such that maps are integral with wathever I'm reading, be it military history, fantasy, whatever. It's fundamental with me imagining, grasping the setting, and the plot. If I don't look at the map it is because I have already memorised it rather well ;)

Plus I just like maps, from very young age.
Birgit F
243. birgit
The question to raise here, however, is who gave the order to kidnap him, and why? The standing order from Ba'alzamon/Moridin is to kill him or Perrin on sight, not to abduct them.

Carridin ordered his darkfriends to catch Mat after he saw Mat in front of his palace.
Tess Laird
244. thewindrose
I, too, have always enjoyed this scene with Mat and Birgette. It is so well written, I feel I am there with them, and wish I could go down to the common room with them!
And I love how they find in each other a confidant. I look forward to ToM, when they get back together.

For the other dicussions: I love maps. I do directions by cardinal points - not to fond of turn right here and left there - becuase what if you are coming to the place a different way!
My husband digs technology and gadgets, and has a GPS gadget, and can tell his phone a place he wants to go, and it tells him were to turn ect.
I am fine with just a compass!

I have always lived by cities, and have a great love for the great cities of the world. Although my tops is London:)

I have been reading a long time(since 5) and even in the beggining I had a love for scifi and fantasty. My parents belonged to the Scifi book club and have a great library. One of my favs as a kid was Zelenzy - Amber, and Herbert - Dune.
Also read lots of other types of books. For a while I couldn't get enough of Greek/Roman mythology.

I was an only child, and I don't know if that has a correlation to reading more - I have met other only children, and they seem to have read more and were expected to 'behave' more like a little adult when growing up. But that could just be coincidence.
I did like wearing dresses to fancy functions - like going to the Opera or a ballet. But no doll playing for me. I was more into legos, building models - helping my dad with his model railroading. I used to dream about being an Astronomer, and my dad and I would spend countless nights gazing up at the stars with the telscope. And we would also go fishing together alot.

Bill Reamy
245. BillinHI
Catching up...RL interfering (first mainland visitor in years, gotta go do all the touristy stuff, but it's still good)...Was raised in a suburban setting, plenty of woods and parks to play in, could disappear all day as long as I was back for dinner. Love maps and must eventually get back to my small collection of early US road maps.

WOT stuff: This chapter was definitely one of my favorites, primarily for the actual communication taking place!! I should probably make notes on my all-time faves (lump in throat, tearing up, etc.) during my next re-read. Some of the ones that really stick with me: Moiraine's Manetheren backstory, wolves at Dumai's Wells (We come! still gets me, just thinking about it), Mat sounding the horn. There are several others, of course.

RL again (grrrr) must go help a buddy with computer problems, then take visitor on helicopter tour of Oahu.

Edit: reading: got into SF (Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov (heard him speak twice) ) in elementary school. LotR and WoT are my main fantasy reads, although I have read a few others at times.
Tricia Irish
247. Tektonica

Where've you been! Nice to hear from you and thanks for contributing to the survey!

Can't remember if I mentioned this at the beginning of this thread, but I was so into this scene the first time I read it, that I was shocked when I did a reread that the whole conversation between Mat and Birgit down in the common room getting drunk had been illiminated from my book! Must have dreamed it! Damn. Would've loved to have been a fly on that wall.

Am also looking forward to a Mat/Birgit reunion in Caemlyn.
248. Freelancer

Soft-tip is a game for kindergarteners.

I learned to play at sea. Literally. When you can run the board in Rotation while compensating for pitch and roll, shooting at a steady board is almost like cheating. Did you say d19-d19-d16 to close? Phaw, here, pick which dart goes last...

I notice many folks mentioning Heinlein along with the SciFi masters, and I have an issue with that. No question he could write extremely well, but his stories always took a turn into the toilet just about halfway through, and I got real tired of it. Blind, you named Vonnegut, and while he employed science fiction components (usually as deus ex machina plot devices), that was almost never the focus of his works. Not criticizing, his fusion of different styles always intrigued me. The name I listed was A. E. Van Vogt, and if you don't know it but love pure sci-fi, I strongly recommend his work. The Isher books are each fairly short but pack a serious punch. The Null-A series is really crafty and thought-provoking. The Mind Cage; Rogue Ship; The Silkie each deserve their place among the stars. And that is a small sampling of his prodigous anthology.


I was going to suggest that there isn't necessarily a correlation between volumes of reading and being an only child, as I have two brothers but always read tons. And then I realized, with my brothers I always wished I was an only child, so you might be right.
249. ValMar
I am too an only child (as far as my dad knows ;)) and this probably had an effect whilst a child. Fewer distractions I guess. But later on siblings might have opened me to knew things to read.

As for big cities, yes Wind, London is a fine example. Especially the centre, where I currently live. But the vast suburbs (of every large city) I find, ehm, soul sapping.

On WOT: nothing original to add on this chapter really. Mat and Birgite fun-tastic, Nyn grating, and Avi's not minding the fact that Nyn is incensere annoying.
On Mat and Eg. Maybe Eg's preconceptions about Mat and his nonchallant behaviour are preventing her to see him in a new light.
Marcus W
250. toryx
Freelancer @ 248:

I can certainly understand not liking Heinlein but he is nevertheless attributed to be one of the old masters by many, including others who are considered to be masters as well. Stranger in a Strange Land and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress alone have earned him that status.

I do agree, however, that there are several others I would place above him.

Re: Mat

I suspect his inability to reason out that people are actually attempting to kidnap him is due to a certain degree of modesty unexpected as that may be. It's as much that he can't conceive of anyone being interested him as his refusal to admit that he's got a large role to play in the world. So he's both obtuse and surprisingly modest.

Re: Personal Background

I'm not an only child but I am an Eldest; my siblings did not read as often as I and none of them were interested in SF. I originally got into it by reading Don Quixote when I was 12 and was fascinated by the fantastical elements of the book. When I talked to my librarian about that, she kindly directed me to the SF section and I suddenly had tons of new books to explore. It was a glorious moment in my childhood.
Bonnie Andrews
251. misfortuona
Hmm, only child. NO, but youngest by 12 years, may as well have been. None of the girls I knew read anything but romances. shivers
In truth, I read mostly westerns or historical fiction until a friend introduced me to Pern, the rest as they say, was fantasy.

Mis-adding two cents.
Thomas Keith
252. insectoid
Linda @237 & Blind @238: Thanks! I'd forgotten about that.

Wind @244:
I was more into legos, building models - helping my dad with his model railroading. I used to dream about being an Astronomer, and my dad and I would spend countless nights gazing up at the stars with the telscope.
Good for you! Things like that never get old, not for me anyway. Our telescope's not very big, but it can spot the Galilean moons. And yes, I still build with Legos occasionally. ;)

Tina Pierce
253. scissorrunner
don't get much better than that
Tricia Irish
254. Tektonica
Only child. Love to be alone. Read all my life, a lot. My telescopes in mothballs, since the night sky here in Fla. is very polluted. Used it a lot when we had a place in Colorado.

We need more than one post a week. But this is fun.

If we keep the new GD thread for serious theorizing, as is being suggested over there, this may become the playground as well as the reread boxing ring. Thoughts?
John Massey
255. subwoofer
Have four brothers and a sister. Never stopped me from reading. But, like I have said, I've always danced to my own tune. Don't get much book time now as wife/work/life/wife/many other hobbies get in the way.

@Free- yes to world domination! Things are starting to fall into place... all we need is a girl with green eyes...
and rainbow jello.

Darts come with soft tips? What? Is this like the rubber-gun squad? Not trusted with real guns or real bullets? Only know of the one type, unless we are talking about the ones the Carnies use. Those are weighted wonky and useless.

Remember, at first Mat thought he had the wrong room and was actually going to apologize to his would be killer. Now he comes into his room and Birgitte is there. Seems to me Mat needs somebody to watch his door better than the serving staff.

Later Mat tells Birgitte about the Stone and asks for an apology. This could be the apologize plot arc...

Bonnie Andrews
256. misfortuona
That's a good idea really, since it gets refreshed weekly. We don't have to worry about things getting too big to handle.
Of course it might get a bit silly for people wanting serious re-read discussion.

Mis-likes having the chat thing to play in as well
Bonnie Andrews
257. misfortuona
Hey Sub
What's in it for the girl with green eyes?

Tricia Irish
258. Tektonica

It was the weekly refreshment part on this thread that I thought was good. Let's face it, if we had two chapters, or one controversial one, we wouldn't be sideways here. But, hey, maybe if Leigh gets her accommodations worked out, we will be back to two per week.

I have really enjoyed our interesting digression here though, and have taken notes on everyone's history, tomboyishness and map affinity. Still working on an overview....if I can get it scaled down enough, I'll post it in Wall-O-Text and you all can help find the commonality....and there does seem to be a lot.
Very interesting....
Barry T
259. blindillusion

3 Brothers. 2 Older. 1 Younger.

3 of my greatest friends, even while growing up. But I'm the only one who reads like TV was never invented...Books = Such better entertainment.

And actually, I'm the only one that reads much at all, though my oldest brother likes Hunter S. Thompson and his contemporaries.

Oh, WoT...

Mat's The Man:

Of course, I like the whole of Mat’s Arc throughout the novels: Scamp/Rogue to Evil Plagued to the Healing to the Awakening to Realm Journeys to General+Thousands to “I impress everyone.” to Wigged Out But Still Getting It Done.
Rob Munnelly
260. RobMRobM
Family - second of five boys. I'm by far most voracious reader in all genres but brothers 3 and 5 always have delved deeply into SFF. (I got brother 5 into WoT; he got me into George RR).

Maps - I'm good at them, and grew up with a globe nightlight next to bed, but no fixations.
Joseph Blaidd
263. SteelBlaidd
Reading History

Let see 1st of 5 Boys
started at 5 with "A Princess of Mars" and "Tarzan" followed with Azimov, Tolkien, McKinly, McKillip, Hambly, Card(lots of Card), LeGuin, Garratt, Brooks, Anthony, Asprin, Diana Wynn Jones, Mary Stewart and Renault. Then in High School I discovered Bujold, Pratchett, Dickson, Willis, Nix, and of course Jordon.
And that's just the SF&F :P

Suburban boy but spent plenty of time in the wilderness with the Boy Scout's did 2 years as Ranger at Philmont, taught Rifle, and Shotgun, and Rock climbing. Was in Drama club in HS and we had a good laugh about my Dad helping me with my make-up. We did a Renasance themed wedding so my Mom jokes about sewing my Wedding dress. I cook, clean, do dishes, laundry, diapers and sew.
Joseph Blaidd
264. SteelBlaidd
ON the chapter.
RE: Mat not twigging to the kidnapping attempts(@78). Recognizing that they are after him means admitting to himself that he is important in the battle against the Dark One which means he has "Responsibilities" which means WORK, and we all know how Mat feels about work;)

Re Elayns lack of Epiphany.
Makes Perfect sense. She doesn't have nearly as much invested in "being right" or in seeing Mat as a Scoundrel as Nynaeve so apologizing to him is not really a big deal.

Seconding sweetlittleflower@233 I went through this when we did the end of FoH. They know Mat is pretty good at hand -to-Hand but leading a troop of men doesn't mean much. I mean Weiramon can lead a troop of men. There are very few people who have the knowledge to evaluate just how good a General Mat is. Of those only Rand, Lan, Ruharc(maybe), Bashere, and his(Mat's) Lieutenants have had a chance to observe him in action.

Egwene thinks he has his position based on being The DR's best friend(stated in text) and Avi doesn't know enough about tactics and strategy or care enough about Wetlander military style to recognize his skill(remember how she reacted when Rand asked Lan how Shienarans fight Aeil).
265. ValMar
Good point about Avi, Steel. I meant to put it in my last post, after commenting why Eg might be oblivious about Mat.
Indeed, Avi attitude re tactics has more in common with Weiramon than Rhuarc. She is young and impetious, plus Mat wasn't at the front of her mind. But if she had more info she would've been in better position to appreciate Mat than Eg.

In summary, it is reasonable, as already stated by many, that Mat's true ability is not known to Eg and Avi. I have passed my judgement...
Rob Munnelly
266. RobMRobM
Steel @263. Just a coicidence, but my son's first and middle names are the same as the main character in Princess of Mars. As several of my brothers read the books too growing up, I got lots of jokes that I should name my daughter Dejah Thoris when she was born two years later.
267. Joanne
Survey time…

I studied geology and geography so my love for maps goes without saying. When I am on the road with (non-geologist) friends they automatically put the map in my hands and expect me to know what I am doing.

I usually avoid maps in fantasy books because they distract me into professional considerations about suspiciously straight mountain ranges, rivers and things like that. Even spent some time wondering how the wheel of time history would work in a geographically realistic way. No point in wondering about geology if there are people around who can move mountains, but at least an ice age has to come in somewhere…
In the end I decided to just suspend disbelief and stop thinking about it (still am secretly).

I’m another only child and not a girly girl. I spent much time outdoors near as much sand and water as possible. Indoors, I was completely addicted to lego.

My reading experiences began with the wide range of excellent children’s literature available in the Netherlands. I discovered the Lord of the Rings at 14 and it was my best reading experience ever. Since then I occasionally read fantasy, but also many other types of books.

Not much to say on the chapter,
To my shame did not really notice its greatness on my first read. But with this recommendation I will definitely re-read it some time soon to admire its quality.

oops, wall of text...
Matthew Smith
268. blocksmith

Nice BTILC reference. One of my favorite guilty pleasure eyes indeed.

On the reread...

For me, this chapter and the actual finding of the BOW were the highpoints of the book. Unfortunately, not high enough to vault it up there. COS falls in the middle of the pack for me relative to favorites.

Not to bring anyone down, but I turned to SF/Fantasy to escape my parents very nasty divorce and nastier relationship after. Real life wasn't much fun around the age of 8 so I turned to books. Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising chronicles were my entry and from then on no stopping. Narnia, Pern, Prydain, Middle Earth, Earthsea, Xanth, Proton/Phaze, and so many others offered a better place to imagine one's self in.

I will be checking out the new forum soon...hope to read you all there, also.
Kathy Keith
269. Babokathy
Tek @ 258

Sideways = a matchmaking service? Maybe SteelBlaidd could handle the refreshments? He cooks.

SteelBlaidd @ 263

You sound like a well-rounded man! I'll take a clone of you! But, like 30 years ago!

No stats from me; Wall-of-Text indeed! I'm old and wise though.
Sam Mickel
270. Samadai
I am the middle of five brothers. Oldest and youngest don't care to read. The one just older than me likes Stephen King and the like. the one just younger than me likes all the same things I do with the Exception of the WoT books.(crazy right)
Love maps and have an exceptional sense of direction. History and science(everything but physics anyway, I understand the principles, just not that into them) are my passions outside of reading fantasy.
Joseph Blaidd
271. SteelBlaidd
That would have been my Dad :D
272. OldWoman
Hate to remind you but the lego art is relatively new. I played with Lincoln Logs...wooden not plastic. I was the middle daughter of three and as my older sister was mentally disadvantaged or whatever they call it nowadays, I was the one who ran the household. My parents divorced, my mother worked...both unheard of then...and all the responsibility fell to me. Books were certainly my escape and I read constantly. It was all fantasy to me...even non-fiction.
Rob Munnelly
273. RobMRobM
Lincoln Logs, Tinker Toys, Erector Sets - big three in the 60s.
Karen Fox
274. thepupxpert
Hi is the girly girl vs. tomboy survey still happening? I've been trying to catch up but work keeps getting in the way. I fall in the "neither girly girl nor tomboy" category; my parents didn't care what I read as long as I read. I think I first got into SciFi with "Dune", then I got caught up on all the Isaac Asimov and Ann Rand stuff, got a bit sidetracked with Whitley Striber and Anne Rice, well you know what I mean. I'm not sure who introduced me to the genre as my father won't read fiction (yes, you read correctly), and my mother is only into the hard core love story stuff. But my sister and I always trade ideas and books, and she just emailed me asking me about the series I had mentioned to her over Xmas and where she could learn more... hahaha!
Karen Fox
275. thepupxpert
Oh gosh how could I have forgot Stephen King. I'm doing a mental inventory of my bookcase and just passed over the 15 books of his I have there...
Alice Arneson
276. Wetlandernw
Survey... Youngest of seven: 1 girl, 3 boys, 3 girls. We didn't have a TV when we were kids, which may have contributed to the fact that we're all big readers. Our parents' example didn't hurt, either. ;) I read voraciously as a child - anything I could get my hands on. Went through virtually the entire school library (grades 1-8) when I was in 3rd and 4th grade, took as many books as were allowed from the bookmobile every time, etc. My brothers all liked westerns back when, so I read a lot of Zane Grey and Louis L'Amour. My oldest sister introduced me to Lewis's Narnia and Space Trilogy, and supported my continuation of Tolkein. Then again, I suppose she fits the "outlier" concept too, in that she was a math-and-science girl and helped to steer me in that direction.

Childhood toys: tinker toys, farming, mud pies, dolls, lincoln logs, legos, sand-pit construction...

OldWoman and blocksmith - you reminded me irresistably of a snatch from a favorite book:
...He was not looking forward to reuniting with Aunt Dotty and Uncle Frank. Not because he in any way disliked them, but because he had led a life that had taught him not to look forward to anything...
Needless to say, that changes over the course of the story, or it wouldn't be a favorite! Glad you found yours in good literature. BTW - anyone recognize it? (I'm thinking it's pretty long odds...)
Karen Fox
277. thepupxpert
Did anyone read Mary Stewart and the Merlin/Arthur books, the Crystal Cave etc. I loved those books as a teenager and I need to go back and read them again. Now that I'm thinking of what I've read there are so many I can't remember but it seems we all have very similar reading backgrounds.
John Massey
278. subwoofer
Hmmmmmm this Gabbly thing reminds me very much of MSN. Gave it a whirl... same for Twitter, but that is uselessness personified. I think if people have time to Tweet, they could be doing other valuable things with their time... or they have wayyyy too much time on their hands and need either an occupation, life, responsibilities or a wife to badger and cajole them into doing the proverbial "honey-do" list.

@Blocksmith- wise man:) See? It was a classic. Too many good one-liners came out of that movie, must be why it is my favorite. Heck, I quoted it in my profile...

Janet Hopkins
279. JanDSedai
Okay, I'll bite. Block & Sub, I can't figure out what movie y'all are talking about? BTILC... I must be slow today!
John Massey
280. subwoofer
Toooo many good one-liners:)- like I said I quoted Jack Burton in my profile.

Joseph Blaidd
282. SteelBlaidd
thepupxpert@277 Yes though only once.

Just re red Mats rescue of the SG in tDR. Guess what they do to him when he suggests they all make their way to the exit.
Did you guess yet?
They lift him in to the air with the power.
283. OwMasha
thepupxpert @277 - Ooh, Crystal Cave blew me away. It was the first Arthurian sort of book I could ever get into ... aside from Stewart's stuff, most of what I know about that whole mythos still comes from WoT/the various online essays explaining how it plays with the traditional stories.

blocksmith @268 - it feels like some variant on 'I'm sorry' belongs here, but that wasn't so much a downer as a killer point. A lot of the SF/fantasy fans I knew growing up were kids in need of an escape valve. Find some stories to love, and your imagination is your armour, I think.
284. ValMar
It's gone a bit quiet here.

By the way, congrats to all Canadians here! Great game.
Bonnie Andrews
285. misfortuona
Thanks we had a hell of a day yesterday!!
4 medals and the Russia win.

Matthew Smith
286. blocksmith

No idea about the book, but if its good (which I am assuming based on your high praise) I would be interesting in reading it.


So right...escape, armor, and distraction. And, hopefully, inspiration.
Marcus W
287. toryx
Ah, tinker toys, lincoln logs and legos were the best, particularly for an overactive young imagination. Whole cities of the like were destroyed by one wave of battles after another.

blocksmith @ 268:

I hear you, man. Books were my escape as well.

thepupxpert @ 277:

Yep, I read Mary Stewart's series. Well, some of them. I don't think I ever quite finished them, though I'm pretty sure I have the whole series somewhere on one of my bookshelves.
Alice Arneson
288. Wetlandernw
The book I quoted in my post @276 is 100 Cupboards by N.D. Wilson. That's also the name of the series, books 2 and 3 being Dandelion Fire and The Chestnut King. Target audience is about like The Chronicles of Narnia - anyone either young enough or old enough to appreciate fairy tales. Not that it's exactly a fairy tale, but... if you've read the dedication in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe you'll know what I mean. Officially it's "children's literature" but there's so much in it for adults too. My husband is currently reading it to our 6-year-old daughter; she loves it, but I can tell there's a lot of subtlety she's not catching. I'm really looking forward to seeing her grow into them - as she goes through school, every now and then she'll suddenly go "Oh, now I get what that meant!" The author has a classical education background, so (like RJ) he brings in names & concepts from several different mythologies as well as literary allusions. You can enjoy the books without recognizing them, but if you do see them, it makes the reading that much richer. So... my two-bits on a book suggestion, especially for those of you with pre-teen kids.

FWIW, he's a fairly new author, so I don't know how widely his books are available outside the U.S. (100 Cupboards came out in 2007, and The Chestnut King just last month.) I'm pretty sure you can get them in Canada, but I don't know about the rest of the world.
Karen Jacobs
289. KJacobs
Hi Everyone! This is my first time posting (on any site, ever!), so be gentle!

I've been lurking in the background since Day 1 of TEOTW re-read, and although it is killing me that I can't seem to catch up on the comments that I missed during the holidays, I just couldn't resist chiming in on the latest survey.

I seem to be running towards the middle - definitely not a Tom Boy, but not a Girly Girl either. I'm #7 out of 8 kids (5 boys followed by 3 girls), and even though there were other large families in our neighborhood, there weren't many girls my age, so notwithstanding the standard games of kickball, kick the can, and flashlight tag that everyone joined in, I was content to retreat to the living room with my mother to read. Horrible with maps! Hubby gave me a GPS for our anniversary last year, for which I will be forever grateful! Not much of an outdoorsy girl, either. Much happier to stay home and prepare a feast for the hordes when my hubby goes kayaking or hunting.

I love seeing a few mentions of Burroughs' Mars books - they were one of the first series I got hooked on! I also devoured every one of my older brother's Marvel & DC comics. I can't remember a time when I wasn't interested in Greek Mythology. I discovered the Sword of Shannara series in high school, and lucked into WOT right around the time my husband took up skiing and I had some afternoons to kill, finding TEOTW and TGH in paperback and immediately starting the wait for TDR in hardcover. My parents are both huge readers, but not SF/F - Dad prefers westerns, and Mom has her romance - but I do have one brother that reads almost as much as I do and we'll often trade books. Much to my disappointment, he never could get into WOT, though, so it has been wonderful for me to peek into the windows of the bunker and discover the amazing insights and nuances from all of you eloquent contributors that I have missed on previous re-reads on my own. As it relates to a much older survey, my hubby is on the 'barely tolerates' my WOT habit side, and just shakes his head when I 'just have to finish this chapter' before anything gets done around the house!

Well, that's about it - maybe someday I'll actually post something relevant to the topic at hand! Still pondering the 'big clue' though! Someone else is usually quicker on the draw and comes up with a much better presented comment that says what I wanted far better than I could hope to; but rest assured, I'm usually lurking in the background (especially during my lunch break!), talking to the computer screen, laughing, and squee-ing in glee right along with the rest of you.

Thank you all for adding so much to my day!

Oh - and RMRM . . . 'waves' from the South Shore :)
Antoni Ivanov
290. tonka
In defense of Egwene about her not explaining to Gawyn that Mat didn't kill his mother. She promised him that she will find a proof. But imagine how is she to explaine that Morgase died?

She has to say that some mythical creature from before 3000 years has awakened and is walking the world and that mythical creature manipulated and eventually killed Gawyn's mother. Because that's what are the Forsaken for the people in Randland and if someone actually believes they have existed (which are not so many) they think they are trapped and gone forever.
On the other side Gawyn and most people in Randland think Rand, the breaker of the world, man who can channel!!, half-mad probably if not totally mad, who using the savaged Aiel, already conquered with force two big countries (Tear and Cairhien) and now he takes Andor too and in the process he kills the Queen. And Egwene is defending him because they are friends from childhood.

So which is more plausible for Gawyn? And probably Egwene realizes that just telling him the truth without having anyway to prove it won't do any good. On the contrary Gawyn would think she takes him for a fool babbling fairy tales.

As for Mat, she was hammered by Lanfear.And if that is not excuse enough. About Mat's battles , for all she knows he is in charge because of Rand and he is taking all the glory while the other, real generals did the actual work (that would be so Mat in her opinion).Egwene has always underestimated Mat and Rand unfortunately :( Not that Rand and Mat are not guilty of that too.
Jay Dauro
291. J.Dauro
KJacobs @289
for me to peek into the windows of the bunker
Much more fun coming inside the bunker. That way you can try the cookies, at least. And no one inside bites (much.)
Karen Jacobs
292. KJacobs
Well, I do make a mean cheesecake, and I'm rather fond of snickerdoodles.....
Thanks for the welcome! Grinning ear to ear!
Sam Mickel
293. Samadai
Suffa, get KJ a chair and bring her that plate of cookies.

KJ, welcome to the bunker
Marcus W
294. toryx
tonka @ 290:

Sorry, I don't buy it. For one thing, I don't agree that the world really considers the Forsaken to be as mythical as you say. The further north you go, the more likely people are to believe in such things and Andor isn't exactly the southlands. Overall, I think Randlanders give even more credence to the Forsaken (particularly the further north you go) than people in our world do to Satan. And that's a pretty significant amount of faith.

On top of that, Gawyn has trained with Warders. He's been taught by people who believe in the Shadow and all that entails. They're not the type to tell ghost stories to spook the younglings. You can bet that if Gawyn had ever suggested that any of those "fairy tales" weren't real, they'd have straightened him out right quick.

On top of all that, all Egwene really had to say was, "It couldn't have been Rand. I was with him when he first found out that Morgase was dead and I saw him go ballistic."

But not, y'know, in such modern slang. But instead she waffles about on the proof issue, as if she didn't have any. Thing is, she's got more evidence that Rand didn't kill Morgase than people have that the woman is dead.

So no. Egwene's not getting off that easily.
April Vrugtman
295. dwndrgn
I'm slowly catching up on the comments here (very busy at work these days) but I wanted to add my info to the poll:

Definite tomboy. While I didn't grow up on a farm like some notables above, I was the youngest of three by 9 years and the only girl so if I wanted to be included in anything I had to be just as tough as the boys as well as quiet and low-maintenance. It has stuck with me all these years.
Bonnie Andrews
296. misfortuona
Welcome to the fun and games. J.Dauro is right we don't bite, except for Sub, but he's had his shots, so it's all okay.

There's also brandy, scotch, and oosquai, but someone keeps drinking the rum.

Absolutly agree. She's just messed up big time on this one. Should have given the guy the low down as she saw it and left him to believe or not.
Not a great moment for Eggy here.

Mis-welcome wagon
Alice Arneson
297. Wetlandernw
Just thought of something on the Egwene/Gawyn thing... It was only hours (the next morning) after Rand learned about Morgase that The Scene at the Docks happened and Egwene got whacked by Lanfear. Could it be that she doesn't remember the scene about Morgase all that well? (Don't have the book handy to see if she thinks about it during the conversation with Gawyn.) That was the same scene in which Moiraine "exposed" Mat's battle prowess, incidentally.
298. alreadymadwithegwene
Indeed I've never seen a woman who was unable to make her man see the light of day at midnight.
Rob Munnelly
299. RobMRobM
KJ - welcome to the gang. As a general matter, where are you on the South Shore? I'm originally from the North Shore, my wife and I miss the beach very much, and we're almost certainly moving from western burbs to one of the upper coastal towns (H, C, S) in the next few months. (Not moving north because my work is near South Station and my wife doeasn't want to travel through Lynn to get anywhere. Rob
John Massey
300. subwoofer
Weeeeeeee! Hello all:) It was fun in Subwooferville today. I think I got over the hump so the bourbon is outta my system. There will be a gentle re-introduction post-Lent.

Moiraine pantsed Mat? Interesting. I must go back and study the text.

As for Eggs and Gawyn... well, I've yet to be in a relationship where I voice my opinion and my partner says, "yes, BUT..." Eggs was a dweeb in that one. Forceful with her views with everyone else but the guy who er... fuddles her.

Gawyn is also First Prince of whosoever and whatnot. He should know better than to rely on gossip and hearsay in lieu of facts. Get some solid evidence to back up your beliefs then accuse somebody. At least Galad has some of it figured out. Gawyn, you have to do something to compensate for your half-brother's good looks etc... excelling at being a knob is not the skill I had in mind.

KJacobs. Welcome:) - see that? If I could figure out how, I'd smile showing my canines.

Edit- Oh Snap! 3 hunny! This is what happens when you say your prayers at night. Yay for me:)

301. TyRandosaurous
@299 ROB

I am from Gloucester
Tricia Irish
302. Tektonica
Hi peeps....good theories going on here::waves:: Really enjoyed them all.


Welcome. Jump right in, the water's fine and thanks for participating in the survey....results/observations to be tabulated this weekend. (BTW, Blind burned the Bunker Rum....some sort of experiment?)

As for Egs not defending Rand to Gawyn.....
She really ticked me off here. Either she was just so "love struck" that her tongue was glued to the roof of her mouth, or her brain was scrambled. She absolultley knows that Rand didnt' kill Morgase. Why doesn't she just state that, and say I'll prove it later.

What kind of a lover wouldn't at least trust that what his paramour was telling him was probably truth. She flakes out and he doesn't trust. (Don't get me going on all the idiot decisions Gawyn's made. He is my least favorite male in WOT, except Fain and the Whitecloaks.)

Great Olympics Canadian WOTers....big distraction! What a beautiful city Vancouver is....incredible location!
Barry T
303. blindillusion
Tsk. I burned the Rum for the purpose of a signal get Torie's attention for the GD Thread. I did it with heavy heart. =)
Janet Hopkins
304. JanDSedai
re:303 blind burning the rum

Talk about alchohol abuse!
Thomas Keith
305. insectoid
Lurking about until the next post. *twitch*

Sub @300: Re: smile... Well, best I can come up with is : (durn Tor doesn't like Unicode!).

Blind @303: Why is the rum always gone? ;)

Jay Dauro
306. J.Dauro
All right, who hid the blender. I've got more coconut milk for my Piña coladas. (Oops.)
Rob Munnelly
307. RobMRobM
ty - blocksmith is from one of the towns not far from you up north. I am in western suburbs but am originally from lower parts of the north shore coastline. forkroot is originally from Concord. Have a few here from the Massachusetts Aeil.
John Massey
308. subwoofer
@Insectoid, yes I tried to play that game, had nice pointy teeth all lined up and it ended as question marks. Poopy.

What is with all the folks with booze? Put that blender away! Didn't I mention that it is a dry county in Subwooferville? Burn the rum! It worked.

Um... strike that, I didn't mean it. Save the rum for later. Sorry, I got carried away. I'll just sit here and sip my Shirley Temple.

Karen Jacobs
310. KJacobs
Good Morning All!

RMRM@299 & TyRand@301: Originally from Weymouth, in walking distance of the beach. I've been in Randolph for over 20 years but still miss the smell of the ocean when it rains! Can't blame your wife, Rob, on not wanting to drive through Lynn - not a fun ride to attempt on a daily basis. Eventually we plan to move closer to the water again, maybe Marshfield or Cohasset. Someday :)

Mis, Sam, Sub, Tek - thanks everyone!
311. MasterAlThor

Welcome to the club. No member dues, but wait you said you make a mean cheeseacke.....hmmmm. Ok, you make the cheesecake with chocolate chips and your in.

Just joking. But seriously, welcome to the club. Have fun and watch out for R.Fife. He likes to have fun with links that show up in blue in his post.

We are always happy to have new people join our group.

Karen Jacobs
312. KJacobs
Thanks MAT! I've been wise to RFife since I got snagged in his first RickRoll :(
Chocolate chips - Check! Melted, with crushed chocolate cookies for the crust. Will do!
Tricia Irish
313. Tektonica
My apologies....a worthy cause, and it worked!

Sub......I admire your sacrifice for Lent, but the rest of us are partying on, Garth. What did Suffa do with that blender.....

Congrats Canada!
Matthew Smith
314. blocksmith

Nice to have another baystater on board...still have family in Randolph.

Live long and participate in commenting.
Antoni Ivanov
315. tonka
@ 294.toryx
I am sorry but I don't agree. While yes they believe that the Dark One exist. They've got the Blight and Shayol Ghul as something that's hard to ignore.While we don't have any visual proofs that Satan exists. But the Forsaken are altogether different matter. They were trapped 3000 !!! years ago believe by most to be gone forever.Even most Aes Sedai are skeptical if not outright disbelieving that the Forsaken are freed. What about all the other people? Of course Gawyn would have told that this is fairy tales. It just is so obvious to me. Who kill Morgase? People trapped 3000 years or Rand , the most feared man in history, and his best friend is defending him.
Of course I will enjoy when Morgase and Gawyn meet.Sure I hope so.
316. earlgrey
I would like to share a thought on pre-concieved notions. Gawyn has got it in his head that Rand killed his mother. Until he sees her, that notion will remain. Eg can tell him over and over again that the rumor isn't true, but it won't go away. No matter how much he loves her and trusts her. Case in point: I told my wife for over ten years that I thought she would enjoy WOT. She was not interested, even though our son and daughter both read the series and told her she would enjoy them. She was convinced that the books were SF with aliens galore and refused. This past summer she finally sucumbed to my attempts. She is currently half way through her second reading of the series. Until the truth is shoved in Gawyn's face he won't change.
Marcus W
317. toryx
tonka @ 315:
Even most Aes Sedai are skeptical if not outright disbelieving that the Forsaken are freed.

Yes, but note that they didn't disbelieve in the Forsaken. They just didn't think the Forsaken would be freed unless the Dark One was, which is understandable given that no one knew how the Seal worked.

I don't have the books with me, but I bet if I were to leaf through it to virtually any scene where Rand or someone else mentioned that there was a Forsaken in x place, every "normal" person who accepted the existence of Darkspawn would react with incredulance not that the Forsaken were real, but that they were free.

Gawyn himself admits that Rand may well be the Dragon Reborn. If one's worldview allows for Trollocs, the Eyeless, the Dark One and the Dragon Reborn himself, it's not likely that he'd deny the existence of Forsaken.

But you know what? It doesn't matter. Egwene doesn't even have to tell Gawyn that Rahvin was responsible. All she has to say is that news of Morgase's death spread before Rand even went to Caemlyn, and she can vouch for that since she travelled with Rand that whole time.
Ron Garrison
318. Man-0-Manetheran
Gawyn = Gone + Yawn

Let's face it, he is pretty much clueless on many subjects. In fact, that about sums him up: Pretty & Clueless.
Rob Munnelly
319. RobMRobM
KJ - thanks for answering. I used to work in Braintree, the Corcoran building on the hill behind the Tara, next to the movie theater. Now I'm downtown in Boston. Wish us luck in moving in your direction.

Roger Powell
320. forkroot
forkroot is originally from Concord. Have a few here from the Massachusetts Aeil.
Yeah, formative years in Concord, although I was born in Western, MA and also spent four years in Lynnfield.

Last four years were in Cambridge (at MIT) after which I bolted for warm weather graduate school and became a desert rat for good.

There is still much fondness in me for the MA Aiel though!
321. Cadsuane
Greetings, people of Ear-... I've just been catching up on these here WoT re-reads, and this is my first post.

"The trick Jordan pulled with concealing which language they were speaking until Birgitte drew Mat’s attention to it (for hint-dropping, diction-altering values of “concealing,” anyway) can only be done on paper."

LOST actually accomplished this pretty well, IMHO, in "Everybody Hates Hugo." Hurley is having a dream in which he talks to Jin, who at that point in the show only spoke Korean. Starts at approx 52 sec.

It's not a perfect map to the WoT scene, as B & M stop speaking the Old Tongue when B points it out, while Hurley continues in Korean, but WoT could be fidgeted with a bit to make it work.

Also, yes, I am a fan of Cadsuane. No, I'm not going to argue about her; all sensible points and counterpoints have already been made. C-c-can't we all just get along? 8-)
322. JimF
Yess! Yess! (twitches his foxy nose and inhales the emo flowing from this reread segment).

I thought this might be the scene you referred to, but I wasn't sure, because - as you say - AWESOMENESS blossoms from this point forward in ACoS.

Now part of the reason I love Mat so much comes out in this chapter through these quotes:
"...he notes the large jute sack the man had had with him, and thinks they were awfully optimistic about what they would be able to steal from him...."
"...“What secrets do I have? Those women know my toenails and dreams.”..."
"...“The Black Ajah.” Birgitte’s voice was flatter than the floor tiles. “And one of the Forsaken. Mat never mentioned them...."

Mat is so little introspective, and also so little given to embellishment and tooting his own horn (maybe that's a pun) - while acknowledged by so many outside the SuperGirls as A Major Dude - that he is truly an anomalous figure in this book, maybe in fiction anywhere. And he has a way of thinking and phrasing things that simply delights me. Mat has not declined in my estimation in multiple rereads. Brandon didn't do him well in TGS, but Mat's back on track in ToM.
323. yasiru89
What can I say? Swovan Night is the best scene in this book and probably beats anything in the following three.
The thing about Mat is, he doesn't think his secrets are relevant to everyone keeping their hides- which they aren't, while the Supergirls' secrets are. The latter lot seem to keep secrets for the sake of keeping them and appearing mysterious- a common Aes Sedai failing. Luckily, Birgitte, being a decent person as well as being the awesome counterpoint to Mat in this series, helps remedy the entire conflict in a single meeting.
Of course, you see how naive, arrogant and self-absorbed the Supergirls are in this chapter, and while I had hoped they would change for the better with perhaps a little ji'e'toh from Aviendha for Elayne and being carted along for Nynaeve, they immediately renounce any such claims by keeping from Mat that his men had been killed in a few chapters and later trying to manipulate him into bargaining with the Sea Folk for them.
There are probably things that don't help in communication between Mat and the Nynaeve-Elayne duo (eg- how sincere his acceptance of their apology was), but this incorrigible attitude on the part of the latter pair is the real wrench.
My estimation of Mat has never diminished through a number of rereads, but my exasperation with the Supergirls only grows (though Nynaeve redeems herself later).
324. Danni
Have only just discovered this re-read came to this specific chapter to read what you had to say about it because its my favourite scene in the whole series and to find that its yours....well I feel GREAT NOW.
William McDaniel
325. willmcd
Having been in the corporate world for nearly 20 years, I agree with MOM @4 that the term "paradigm shift" conjures up images of nothing but management consultants for me.

Had I participated in the discussion in a more timely way, I might have been able to point out that Aristotle gave us a classical term for a profound moment of realization about oneself or another character: Anagnorisis.

And how cool I might have looked pointing it out. (sigh)

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