Tue
Oct 27 2009 8:30am
The Wheel of Time: The Gathering Storm Review and Open Spoiler Thread!

NOTE: This thread is now closed. Please continue the conversation here.


Happy drop date, WOT fans!

Today marks the official U.S. release of the long-awaited twelfth novel in the Wheel of Time series, The Gathering Storm—the finest merchandise this side of the river Jordan, on sale today! Come on down, heh heh.

But you probably knew that. About time, eh?

Consequently, as promised, I have here my second and infinitely more spoiler-laden review of the book. This will also, coincidentally, provide you with a place on Tor.com to discuss your own spoilery thoughts and reactions to The Gathering Storm, because we love you and we want you to be happy.

So have at, but remember: please confine all spoilers for the new book to this post. There are many readers out there who for whatever reason are not able to obtain and read the novel on the day of release, so out of courtesy to them, please keep the spoilers concentrated in one easily-avoidable spot, mmkay? Thanks, y’all are rockalicious.

Also, this is obvious, but just for the record: There are GIANT, MASSIVE, BOOK-DESTROYING SPOILERS for The Gathering Storm under the cut. And you can bet that whatever I don’t spoil in the post, will get spoiled in the comments. Read at your own risk.

For what it’s worth, I strongly advise WOT readers to avoid this post until they have read the book. I know some of y’all have low willpower on this score, but I’m seriously telling you that you will miss out if you ruin the ending (and the middle, and all the other parts) for yourself before reading the actual book. Also, since I’m not going to be explicating the details of every last event I bring up, if you haven’t read the book first, some of the things I’m going to say may not make sense to you anyway, which is yet another reason to wait.

As someone with a terminal allergy to spoilers before the fact, that’s just my opinion, of course, and I ain’t your mama, but presumably you’re here because you semi-care about my opinions, so there you have one.

So, there’s all that. For those of you looking for a totally spoiler-free and yet also somehow-massively-verbose review of The Gathering Storm, go here. Honor to serve and alla that.

And now, having gotten all warnings, caveats, and stern remonstrances out of the way, click though to get to the meat. IF YOU DARE.

Just so you know, this is not going to be an exhaustive dissection of the book. For one thing, that would take too damn long, and second, I’m going to eventually be doing a very detailed recap of The Gathering Storm (henceforth abbreviated TGS) anyway, just like all the other books, so I have to save some gems of wisdom here.

*deep breath* Hokay. So, I guess the best way to go about this is to basically expand upon my little “list of scenes that made me react in some way” from the non-spoilered review, right? Right. It should be noted that several scenes fit several categories, so there will be some repetition in here.

It should also be noted that I’ve actually only done one complete read-through of TGS thus far, and that at Ludicrous Speed, so some of my memories have of necessity gone to plaid. I’m working on a second (much slower) read-through as I write this, but time constraints being what they are, I may not get to everything before this has to go up. We Shall See.

Anyway! The scenes. In the order I deem most coherent(ish):

Scene of partial *headdesk*ing: Was actually more of a “*headde*- wait. DAMMIT”, because it was when Cadsuane had her Moment of Awesome in besting Semirhage – and she did it with spanking.

*wibble*

That was ON PURPOSE, WASN’T IT, TEAM JORDAN. It’s a plot, I tell you. A PLOT AGAINST ME. I’m going to go curl up with a blankie now.

(Over-inflated sense of importance? Moi?)

Scenes that made me go “Aww”: When Siuan (finally!) bonded Bryne, and later on when he asked her to marry him. Aww. Their interaction in general in TGS was just sweet, which is something I don’t get to say too often about romantic relationships in WOT. Plus, one long-hanging prophecy down, whoo!

(As a side note, those Seanchan Black Ops kamikaze guys (I forget what they were called) really didn’t live up to their hype, did they?)

Scene that managed to profoundly irritate me at the exact same time I was going “HELLS, YES”: The (second) dinner scene in the Tower. Even as I was cheering Egwene’s verbal excoriation of Elaida, for it was unquestionably a Smackdown of Eloquent Awesomeness, I found it extremely difficult to believe Elaida wouldn’t have shut her up before she got more than two sentences into it. Plus, I have issues with Elaida’s character derailment, which sort of precedes TGS but really goes nuts here. I mean, she was always an incompetent martinet with delusions of grandeur, but in TGS (and especially in this scene) she’s practically twirling her moustaches and tying damsels to railroad tracks. Enh.

“Wait, what?” scenes: a number of them, really, including the manner in which Elaida was disposed of – not so much how she went (which was only appropriate, all things considered), but that we didn’t get to see her in the battle up to that point, at all. I don’t know, it was just kind of abrupt and “Oh, hey, we forgot all about her! Whoops, bye!” I just felt that as such a major antagonist, she sort of deserved a more detailed exit.

That being said, I devoutly hope that we will never ever see her again. If any part of Book 13 is concerned with mounting a rescue for her I may have to throw a tantrum.

Another “wait, what?” scene was the death of Sheriam. Though the scene in which she was exposed as Black Ajah was beyond awesome, I was like “That’s how Min’s viewing is fulfilled? Really?” I can’t decide if the viewing thing was clever or cheap, actually; it could really go either way. Of course, I may be a bit personally biased, as that whole thing torpedoed one of my favorite pet theories, that Sheriam was going to go down in a blaze of glory taking out Halima. Crap, I really liked that theory. Oh, well.

(Also, what, no thirteen on thirteen trick? Is that EVER going to come up? And Sheriam would have been so appropriate thematically for it! Man...)

And the big “wait, WHAT?” thing (but in a good way) was Rand channeling the True Power to escape Semirhage. Holy jumping Jehoshaphat, but I sure as hell never saw that coming. Not to mention, I believe the applicable category here is Very, Very Bad Things. Ai yi yi. Nothing Good Can Come Of This, y’all.

That scene is also the one that upset me so much I had to walk away for a while. This is my schizophrenic scene reaction, because while it was probably one of the most tension-filled and dramatic (i.e., well-done) scenes in the book, possibly in the series (certainly in the latter half of the series), I can’t say that I loved it. In fact I hated it, because it was so frickin’ terrible for Rand and Min. But you see the distinction: I didn’t hate it because it was awfully written, I hated it because it was as exactly as awful as it was supposed to be. So it was a great scene, but I hated it. Does that make any sense?

Speaking of which, Rand’s entire plot arc in TGS contains something of that schizoid reaction for me. I believe I am on record somewhere stating that I thought TPOD (Book 8, The Path of Daggers) marked Rand’s low point (both emotionally and in terms of my liking for the character); well, I was so, so very wrong, you guys. THIS was Rand’s low point, on both counts, and I was frankly shocked at what a terribly low low it was.

I’m not saying that it wasn’t necessary to have happened, storywise; if you view Rand as being the equivalent of an alcoholic (or anyone locked into a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior) who has to hit bottom before he can begin to climb back up again, it was totally necessary. And I’m not saying Rand didn’t have valid excuses either, like, oh, I dunno, the Head Evil Dude In Charge LEAKING INTO HIS BRAIN, but knowing all that did not make it any easier to read. I honestly kind of loathed Rand through 95% of his screen time, which, yeah, I’m really not happy to be made to dislike a protagonist so strongly. (In case you can’t tell, in general I am not a fan of antiheroes.)

Especially a character I had previously liked so much; Rand may not ever have been my absolute favorite character in WOT, but TPOD aside he was nearly always in the top five, and usually the top three. So while I’m sure his arc was probably very well done in a technical sense, I have a difficult time gaining enough objective space from my own extremely negative reaction in order to admit that.

This is what I was referring to as possible risks on Brandon’s part. Though obviously I know that Jordan outlined what was to happen in more than just a general sense, somehow the extremity of the depths to which Rand is sunk in TGS rings more to me of Sanderson’s demonstrated willingness to push the fantasy trope envelope (i.e. how horrible can we make the protagonist/hero/Messiah figure before he is riiight on the edge of irredeemable?) than Jordan’s more traditional adherence to, er, tradition.

Of course, I don’t know this is true for sure; I’m just guessing. Maybe this is exactly what Jordan planned all along and I have no idea what I’m talking about. But that’s the feeling I get, so there you have it.

(Aaand I now have a mental picture of Brandon chanting “How low! Can you go!” My brain, ladies and gentlemen.)

Whichever the case, Rand is the cause of both times I wanted to hurl the book across the room: once when he was reunited with Hurin, and when he finally reunited with (and then almost killed) his father Tam. (And a near third, when he offhandedly commented to Nynaeve that Lan’s death would “serve him well” or some such UTTER MORIDIN-LEAKING BULLSHIT. Gah.) Oh my God but I wanted to beat Rand senseless during these two scenes – actually more over the Hurin thing than Tam. Tam at least was sort of trying to provoke a reaction from Rand (if not remotely the one he got), and plus Rand was actually doing pretty okay with Tam – right up to where it all went to shit of course – but all poor adorable Hurin wanted was a kind word from “Lord Rand”. He was all so excited! And instead he got treated like dirt. Two, count ‘em TWO of the reunions I had been wishing and hoping for, and that’s how they go? GRRRRRR LEIGH SMASH.

Again, this is not me disparaging the scenes on their merits, so much as me expressing my feelings about what actually happened. Rand had better apologize to Hurin in the next book, is all I’m saying. Fortunately it looks like he might actually be in a headspace to do so, thanks to the ending.

And speaking of headspace: HAHAHAHAHA Lews Therin is gone. And in a way that STILL doesn’t definitively settle the “real or not real” question!!

Heh. Hah. HAH. HEE HOO HAH HAHAHA HAAAAAAH. I cannot figure out how I feel about that whole scene in general, but I tell you I chortled for like five minutes over the Lews Therin thing. I win again, Lews Therin! Except you don’t care, because you’re not here! HAH hee hee. You may all feel free to hate me now. Heh.

As to the end at large: I... really don’t know, you guys. I have to read it again. If I get to it before this goes up I may expand upon this, but otherwise I’ll let you guys argue about it, because I am well and truly divided. On the one hand I was like “THANK YOU JESUS, maybe Rand can stop being an asshole and I can like him again”, and on the other I was... feeling a bit anticlimactic about it all. I know it’s kind of insane to call a scene where basically Rand talks himself off the ledge of destroying the frickin’ world “anticlimactic”, but I think the operative word there is “talk”. I don’t know if this is unfair of me or not. Like I said, I’ll have to read it again.

Speaking of scenes that left me divided (not to mention stunned speechless): WHAT THE HELL, RAND, with the balefiring of an entire city. Or city-like compound, whatever. My reaction was seriously just, “Uh. So... wow, that... happened.” By all rights this should have infuriated me far more than the Hurin thing or the Tam thing, but I was just so shocked by it, I couldn’t even summon up any book-throwingness. Jeez.

Watch, I bet Graendal wasn’t even there, you guys. Yes, I know, the Compulsion on Whatshisname was gone, but you know the rules: we didn’t see a body! And on the one hand, if she wasn’t there, that makes what Rand did just that much worse; but on the other, if she was there, well, damn, because that means Graendal got an even lamer exit than Elaida did. We didn’t even get to see her! My reaction, she is torn!

Um, what else. Oh, right, the big one: my duly appointed Awesomely Awesome Scene of Awesomeness.

Which would be – Dah dah-dah DAH! – Verin’s Last Hour.

I’m sorry, I meant Verin’s Last Hour OF AWESOME.

I mean, come ON. That was frickin’ gorgeous, y’all. Seal, clapping like a. Oh, yeah.

I am so freaking vindicated in my love for Verin, you guys. For Indeed she did show herself to be the veritable Zen Master of Sneakiness to the very end, with the culmination of her Seventy-Year Project of Tying Up Like Fifty Plotlines In Twenty Pages. I ask you, what other WOT character has done so much for one fandom? NONE, that’s who, thank you, goodbye. Not to mention, she fooled EVERYONE – and that includes the readership at large!

Sure sure, there have always been those who believed she was Black, and I’m sure there were even a few out there who hit upon the exact Sidney Bristow Double Agent formula here (though now I’m picturing Verin in an electric blue rubber minidress, which is all kinds of wrong, and now you are too. You’re welcome), but I’m in a fair ex-WOTFAQ-editing position to say that the vast majority of the fandom never hit upon it. For we were most skillfully misled, you guys.

Most readers (including me) were of the opinion that she was not Black, but had removed the First Oath so that she could lie, with various iterations of Purple Ajah/Second Foundation Ajah/Very Old Verin Theory curlicues tacked on for effect. Read the FAQ article if you don’t believe me; the very fact that her article isn’t even in the “Black or not?” section speaks volumes.

We were so close to being right, but we weren’t, y’all. Not exactly. Because Verin (and Jordan) were just that sneaky. Too. Frickin. Brilliant. I sigh contentedly in their general direction!

So, yeah, I think it’s safe to say I hearted that scene. I will love it and hug it and squeeze it and call it George, oh yes. And I’ll fight any one of youse wiseguys what says different, see? Putemup, putemup!

(Okay, not really, because that means I would have to fight Jason Denzel, who I already know disagrees with me over which TGS Scene is Top Most Awesome. And, he’s a pretty nice guy, who also owns a fair amount of medieval weaponry, so I’ll let it go. JUST THIS ONCE.)

Incidentally, this is also one of the two scenes that made me choke up. Verin’s death was about as awesome a WOT character death as can well be imagined (certainly one of the most useful in, like, ever), but that made it even more upsetting that she had to go. I won’t lie, I had to get a tissue.

The other scene that made me tear up was, shockingly, the little vigil Faile and Co. held for their erstwhile protectors/propositioners while being held by the Shaido. Considering my virulent hatred for that entire plotline, getting mushy over Rolan et al was about the last damn thing I would have expected, and yet there I was. I don’t know, maybe it’s just that I’m more sensitized to expressions of grief than I used to be. Growing up sucks, sometimes.

Oh, yeah, which reminds me: Mat and Perrin were in this book.

And I can’t let a spoilerriffic review of TGS end without bringing up the Plot Arc of Total Awesomeness, only slightly eclipsed by Verin’s Hour of Awesome (which was really part of the arc anyway, so), which is of course the entire Battle for the White Tower.

Not just the actual battle part with the Seanchan, though that of course was beautifully done (excepting the lack of Elaida, natch), but the entire campaign Egwene wages from within to reunite the Tower, bring Elaida down, and finally at long-goddamn-last effect a Black Ajah Purge. Or, to put it another way, the awesomeness is encompassed by every single second Egwene is on screen. Basically, she rocked from start to finish, and as of this moment is in firm first place as my favorite (living) WOT character.

Our Ooh! Ooh! Girl is all grown up, y’all. I’m so proud! *sniffle*

And thank God she was there, y’all, because if the whole of TGS had been Mat and Perrin being irrelevant and Gawyn being an idiot and Rand being a giant city-balefiring jerk, I really would have thrown the book through the wall. On its merits, even.

But fortunately Team Jordan is savvy enough to figure out that we must leaven the sourness of bottom-hitting-avec-vague-promise-of-future triumph with the sweetness of actual triumph, and thus I am sated. At least until Book 13! In which Rand had better gain back his awesome, zallumsane.


Aaaand I’m spent. I know there’s tons I didn’t even get to, and I ended on kind of a weird note, but the madness must stop somewhere, and I’m sure you guys will be more than happy to lambaste my wrongness fill in the gaps in the comments.

(That’s how “lambaste” is spelled? Really? Huh.)

Anyway, we presume you have enjoyed your ride on TGS Spoiler Mountain, as we see you have managed to refrain from blowing up the planet theme park planet at the summit. Good on ya, Guvnor! Remain seated, please (Permanecer sentados, por favor) until the ride comes to a full stop. Then go forth, laugh, be fruitful, and multiply the comments! Peace out, G!


Leigh Butler is a writer and blogger for Tor.com, where she *headdesks* frequently for the amusement and edification of others, and also conducts a Re-read of the Wheel of Time series, which is currently completed through Book Six, Lord of Chaos. She currently lives in New York City, which is only appropriate.

3426 comments
john massey
1. subwoofer
Leigh? Is that really you? Doing this to us? The faithful- who have kept you sane;) over the last few months?
"Et tu, Brute?"

Every other post comes up 1700 my time, today I have this to contend with in the wee hours.
"Get Thee behind me Satan!"

Woof™.
john massey
2. subwoofer
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
TW Grace
3. TWGrace
Let the Lord of Chaos Rule!!!

Go Rand!!

;)
Wilson Grooms
4. Wilson Grooms
Awesomely awesome girl.

Regards being out-armed by Jason, you just may know someone who has access to the Jordan armory. Moi? Never pictured you as Min, but then never looked up your sleeves either. You trying to lull Jason into thinking you're harmless?

Thanks for your honest reviews of my bubba's epic.

Wilson
Brother/Cousin
4th of 3
S Diller
5. CuenDiller
Not reading yet cause I just got the book! but so tempting
Kristina Blake
6. kab1
Aaaaaaah- I still don't have the book. audible.com is letting me down....I'm off to chat with their customer service (maybe they're on west coast time??)

wow- a message from Wilson! How exciting! everything about this release has me so giddy (I did a little jig this morning!), except for the fact that I don't have the book yet!

must not look up to read review....
Wilson Grooms
7. Robert Edwin
I hope that by the time I get to this book (yes, that's right, I haven't read it yet and I'm reading this post, I am EVIL) I can appreciate Egwene as much as you do, because right now I am in TFOH in my re-read and she is firmly ensconced in last place on my list of favorite characters.

Also, it sounds like Moiraine (first place on my list of favorite characters) doesn't come back in this book :(
Jason German
8. illian
Well, with Rand balefiring a city, the whole "he will know her wrath" bit makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Because, really, who else beside the Amyrlin Seat is going to get to officially chew out the Dragon Reborn/nominal head of the Black Tower (I forget, do they have an actual title for that yet?) for overstepping the bounds of using the One Power?
Chris Davis
9. SirSarek
Yeah, the lack of Moiraine rescuing was about the only thing I was disappointed with in this book. Definitely felt like a return to the WoT of old, despite the author change up. The first chapter was the only one that really felt out of place for me, and then after that I stopped noticing the different voice and just sat back and enjoyed the ride. Bravo to BS and RJ both!
Chris Davis
10. SirSarek
What did you guys think of the whole "Rand & Moridin have a friendly chat in T'A'R" scene? I'm trying to figure out just where this link up between the two of them is going. Obviously, that's why Rand was able to channel TP, but did he channel it himself or did he channel it through Moridin via the link? It seems like the two merging into one (I think it was Min's vision?) wasn't Rand & LT, but maybe Rand and Moridin after all?
Leigh Butler
11. leighdb
Wilson @ 4:

Knives? Well, they're nice and all, but in a showdown with the Denzel, I'll be needing SWORDS! Whoo!

Heh. Though this may not impress him, as I'm pretty sure he saw me (try to) swing one at JordanCon. It was kind of sad.

And you are so welcome. Honor to serve, as always.
Merrill
12. Merrillfic
Dude, you are hilarious. Did you cop the "LEIGH SMASH" thing from "The Tick"? Ahhh.. the Proto Clown... Well, I, for one, enjoy spoilers, and being that I have to wait another 4-bloody-6 weeks before I can get my copy, I'll take what I can get in the way of story-continuation satisfaction now, thank you very much!
Merrill
13. Merrillfic
YESSS!!!! I am super-psyched now, can't wait to read the Egwene line! Yum....

And also loved the Stenibeck/Looney Tunes reference... gah!
paul Hend
14. tugthis
Leigh, thanks in advance for this review, and altough I haven't read it yet, I will before my copy of the book arrives (unfortunately delayed by those trollocs at Amazon). I will because I value your opinion, and you are the "added value" in my WOT enjoyment. . . You and others. . .

Sorry if I may have been harsh with the earlier review that wasn't a review, but here you have made the sun come out and the birds sing. . .
Thanks.
Wilson Grooms
15. sus_b
Who else wants to know what's going down at the black tower? It was mentioned once!!
Joseph Blaidd
16. SteelBlaidd
Hello, my name is SteelBlaidd and I am a spoilier addict.

I can't get the book today :( so I'm Chaseing spoiliers around the net.

I would have been very disapointed if Rand hadn't gone to a very dark place. His experiance is, I think, supposed to parallel that of the Vietnam veterans who returned home to rejection and condemnation instead of honor and gratitude.

The depth of his PTSD is a result of his inability to deal with his guilt for killing his wife. I think that we haven't realy considered the marriage of Lews Therin Tellemon and Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar in suficient detail, in part because the only person who could tell us about it has been avoiding the topic as hard as he could.

It occurs to me the the reaction of Warders to the death of their Aes Sedai is suposed to mirror LTT reaction to the death of Ilyena.

Here is what I have been ably to deduce.
1. we know from his phisical description that LTT was "middle aged" for a male channeler, probably late middle age, so roughly 400 yars old at his death.
2. We know that Lanfear was his first lover and their relationship happened when they were young just learning the one power.
3. We know that Lanfear considers Ilyena to have 'stolen' LTT from her.
4. We know LTT and Ilyena had several children.
5. From the Guide we know that they were married 50 years before the War of the Power which lasted 10 years so they were married roughly 60 years.

From these I deduce that Ilyena and Lews Theirin got together relitively soon after his breakup with 'Mierin' and by the time of the Prolouge of tEotW they were very much Old Marrieds and happily married at that.

I think it's important to recognize that in many ways LTT's reaction to his wifes death is a model of the reaction of Warders to the death's of their Aes Sedai.
Chris Davis
17. SirSarek
@15 Yeah, I think that there was a mention of the sisters who had been sent there not reporting back yet which leads one to believe all did not go as planned with the bonding...
Kev Hamm
18. cavynmaicl
So not reading this yet, but only because MY COPY HAS YET TO ARRIVE! I'M DYING HERE! DYING I SAY!

(please return to your regular posting with my jealousies)
Joanne
19. Joanne
Hi all! Another long time lurker on the re-read here due to too much work, but I will give in now.

Thank you for the great review Leigh! It was very satisfactory and I mostly agree with you.

I was lucky enough to get the book on Saturday due to a bookshop ignoring the release date here in Germany and I am dying to hear what everyone has to say about it.

can’t wait until next year… ;-)

@ SteelBlaidd
Good point about LTTs marriage, and definitely important in this book I think
Jason Denzel
20. jwdenzel
*siiiiiiiiiiiiigh*

DO you have any idea how HARD it is to not be able to talk about TGS since ... whatever month it was Ages go when I read the darned thing?

I seriously thought Rand was going to kill Min. Like, for reals, yo.

I thought that was it for her, and he (Rand) was going to truly be one and the same with Lews Therin in that they've both killed their honey's.

Best Scene in the Book (*holds up dueling sword to Leigh*): Rand gets collared and breaks out by using the True Power. Shiver me timbers. Wow.

BTW- some people have suggested that Rand drew the True Power via the link with Moridin. What do you think? I got the impression that it was just directly from the Dark One. The DO saw (or put?) Rand in a place so terrifying to him, and then offered the only means of escape. And if I were Rand, and that was my "Min", I can't say I would have chosen different. You?
Keith Benson
21. Midas
I just downloaded the audiobook, which clocks in at around 33 hours. It will be a LONG time before I get through that! (Unfortunately, I don't have the time to read this sucker any faster, though I'll probably purchase it too!) It'll be tough to avoid the review and the postings here in the meanwhile...
Leigh Butler
22. leighdb
jwdenzel @20:

some people have suggested that Rand drew the True Power via the link with Moridin. What do you think?

I definitely think the link with Moridin had something to do with it, but I don't think he got the TP *from* Moridin, per se. More like he got access to Moridin's access to it, if that makes sense.

Which makes me predict that next, Moridin will get access to Rand's various Warder bonds with Elayne et al. YIPE YIPE YIPE

I also have no basis for this, but I didn't get the impression that the DO was necessarily aware it was Rand (and not Moridin) drawing the TP. I could be totally wrong about that though.
Leigh Butler
23. leighdb
Merrillfic @12:

I thought the SMASH thing was from The Incredible Hulk, actually... But who knows where I actually got it from.
Joseph Blaidd
24. SteelBlaidd
*wind whistles*

It's quietin here. Guess everyone is to busy reading.
Wilson Grooms
25. Seanbob
How awful to EVER suggest that Rand should have to listen to one critical word from that self-important ingrate, Egwene. ALL of the true Aes Sedai should of been falling over themselve learning how to help Rand save the world. If they had instead of, as is the way of women, trying to control and manipulate what they have no right to, then perhaps Rand would of never been pushed to the depths he has fallen too. Rand has more to fear from his supposed friends than from his enemies. At least his enemies are open in their intent to destroy him whereas the friends think that the best way to help him is to control him rather than simply helping him and so they are destroying him.
Sid
26. Trigga
My book will be here 2marrow but..... from wut i have read from various spoilers this book won't be one of fav books for 3 reasons: my fav Mat gets down played in this new book. Rand goes insane(as if he wasn't already), and to much aes sedai/tar valon chaps which i hope ends in them all being collared.
Yehuda Porath
27. Yehuda
leighdb @22 - I don't think he got Moridin's access to the TP, I think it was from the DO himself. I think the DO gave Moridin instructions to help it along.

Look at the setup - Moridin tells him something the readers have known all along but none of the Good Guys did - the DO can bring his servants back from the dead. He also tells him that balefire will prevent this.

Then Shaidar Haran releases Semirhage and has her re-grab Rand. Rand, in his desperation, grabs at something he would never otherwise touch, the corrupting TP, and is also forced to break a massive internal rule, i.e. no killing women.

So now we have a corrupted Rand who has good internal reasons to use balefire alot and no longer has his major inhibition of care of women. If Rand can balefire enough so that the Pattern breaks down, the DO wins. If Rand is sufficiently corrupted to destroy himself and/or everybody on his side, the DO wins. All-in-all, a decent tradeoff for Semirhage and possibly Graendel.
Leigh Butler
28. leighdb
Yehuda @ 27:

Your point is well taken.

Fortunately for the Good Guys, Mohammed went to the mountain, so to speak, eh?
Pete Pratt
29. PeteP
Just finished the book for the first time (yes, I am a speed reader) I will read it again 2 or 3 times over the next few weeks, just so it sinks in.

Just a few notes -- Sanderson did pretty well overall, though I picked up a couple of things that RJ would never have written in a million years. Given the total effort, that is not bad at all.

Siuan/Gareth was really nice.

Semirhage's breaking was epic. As noted above, I wondered if it was a plot to get Rand to use the True Power as well.

On the other hand, maybe he actually got hold of the OTHER TRUE POWER, for one for Good Guys, coming from the Creator.

Nyn was all out awesome.

I really wanted Moiraine back, but I am glad that her eventual return was not the reason for Rand returning to being Rand.

Tuon *HEADDESK*. Girl, you were smarter than that. But pretty cool to resist Rand's super-ta'verenness.

Eg -- really good stuff here. She finally looks like she will no longer be annoying. Wow, it has taken a long time.

Oh, and I loved Verin's reveal so much. Getting to the true nature of being a Darkfriend/Black Ajah. Selfishness, not hatred or anger. Goes really well with Rand's moment of clarity in the end of the tGS.

Again, great book, though it was sure hard reading all the horrible stuff with Rand. A true rock bottom.
Wilson Grooms
30. astrawing
SUFFA WILL BE A GOOD DAMANE.

That's all I wanted to say.

Squee!!!
Wilson Grooms
31. AllenWilson
Why the heck isn't there an ebook version?!? Come on tor you're killing me
Wilson Grooms
32. peterbinkowski
ahhh Leigh! I just couldnt keep my self from reading this! haha I wrote up a blog, as a storm leader of the chicago event, anticipating and just sharing what im feeling. This blog was definitely one of the influences ;)

http://bit.ly/1YTLnQ

argh!! cant wait until tomorrow! This book, especially Verin's thread seems to be simply flooring. Great Review!

~Peter Binkowski
Rob Trotter
33. shadar
So many great moments.
I'm with Jason - the Rand in the Collar killing min scene was possibly the most memorable scene from the books.

I loved every Avi point of view..

The Black Ajah getting carried off as slave trope (Liandrin (although she might have something else to do now), Galina, Elaida) is starting to feel old.

Laras feels almost as sneaky as Verin was.
Paul Raj Khangure
34. prk
I thoroughly enjoyed TGS, both as a nostalgic trip to rasfwrj times, but also as the book itself.

Rand being forced to strangle Min, and the emotional fallout from it.

Rand using one of the treacherous nobles as a Graendal metre, to see if balefiring the entire compound was successful.

How low Rand plummeted in his reunion with Tam...

Total exultation at the end of the book, that the White Tower stands, albeit a little battered, and that Egwene won her battle and is the Amyrlin of the reunited Tower.

I was a little disappointed that we didn't see anything of Elayne this time, but I assume we'll get there in book #13.

Anyone else thinking Rand, Elayne & Aviendha wielding Callandor at the Final Battle?

So much to talk about, but I also need to re-read, given the pace at which I ripped through it this time.

prk.
William Fettes
35. Wolfmage
I haven't fully finished yet, (I'm near the end), but I'll share some impressions.

First, I must commend Brandon on his writing, it really is excellent. Looking back, the high quality of the overall work both contrastingly validates and diminishes the criticism I had of Chapter 1. The panic of some fans that BS would ruin the series looks laughable now, because that chapter is IMO the worst written section in the whole book. Some will say those criticisms were always exaggerated, but the contrast is real to me - none of the subsequent sections had any major points where I had trouble with the characterisation or got my immersion spoiled or snagged by discordant idioms or descriptive prose. I didn't think Mat was off either, the only thing wrong with his bits was the very first part of Mat's first chapter, which was just an unnecessary and awkwardly belaboured analogy. Otherwise he captured Mat well enough for me.

Indeed, I think BS improves on RJ's pacing in many ways, and he is particularly good at getting into characters' heads more directly than RJ, though sometimes less subtly, as well as integrating fan perceptions and ideas into the book.

Am I the only one who didn't really have much of a problem with Rand's use of balefire in Bandar Eban? Perhaps I missed the evidence that there were non-compulsion ruined people who were killed, but I didn't see any. Rand's justification was reasonable IMO if a little detached from the humanity of it. Fact is, it worked and killed Graendal permanently. For me, I found his flippant remark about Lan's death, his dark aura / new attitude and his TP usage to be far more concerning than his usage of balefire there. Tam is another story.

I generally loved Semirhage's scenes and her dialogue was very well written. It was cool seeing Sorilea casually belittle her and get a reaction, but I felt the whole spanking and eating off the floor thing reducing her to tears straight away was a bit simplistic for me at least.

The scene with Rand and Min was just chilling and spellbinding. It gave me goosebumps reading it, and the TP revelation was amazing.

Loved seeing Cadsuane acknowledge her limits a bit more and acknowledge Nynaeve. That was long overdue.

I really liked Egwene in this book. She is still kind of annoying with her hubris at times but she is fully in my top 5 now after a long time in the bottom order. I loved how she used my exact argument about the illegitimacy of the coup against Siuan (due to BA involvement in such a narrow vote) to win over the BA hunters. I claim vindication on that point even if I originally got the number of Sitters wrong.

Verin - OMG - Verin is the best. I knew that my appreciation of her was well founded. What a cool pay-off that was. I didn't see it coming, but it was amazing.

Gawyn - arg - whilst it was good to finally get inside his head a bit more in a way that actually deals with his past action, these chapters really just confirmed that he is an idiot. His rationale for siding with Elaida and killing Hammar was emotional and childish. Nothing about duty or oaths to the Tower at that stage - that came after. Nothing about knowing Elaida better or enforcing the law. Turns out it was as petty as not understanding the situation with Egwene and Elayne, and being bitter at Siuan, and then blindly picking the wrong side. We never get a good reason for his ongoing loyalty to the Tower despite him having ongoing reservations about the fact that the TAS are trying to get him killed. Indeed, the Younglings come off as a bunch of unthinking slavish idiots as a whole. Also, he still has no good reason to believe Rand killed Morgase. Moreover, his flight from the Younglings to 'save' Egwene damsel-in-distress style is little improvement. His big fighting entrance to the SAS camp and his line that a 'blademaster' was here to see the General was showy and juvenile. Having Gareth Bryne challenge him as a spoiled princeling who couldn't pick a side was immensely satisfying. I used to think Egwene and Gawyn deserved each other, now I really think Egwene could do much better.

For that reason I didn't even get much satisfaction out of his dicking practicing the sword forms and being blademaster which I usually love. The whole thing with him easily beating the guy who could sometimes beat Lan was just taking away cool points from a far superior character, Lan, to give them to a far inferior character, Gawyn.

Some people complained about Avi's scenes, but I thought they were great. I really liked the Wise Ones' Q&A with her about Rand and other issues. It really showed Avi's evolution as a thinker and bookended her journey from a spear-sister. Her uncertainty about being punished didn't annoy me and the arc was more interesting than Perrin's and even Mat's arcs. In fact, I don't really think Perrin needed to be in the book at all. Also her firefighting was way cool.

Min was good - I knew her reading and philosophising would be important. Take that Min haters.
Rikka Cordin
36. Rikka
I'm 31 chapters in and DAMN it's rollercoaster-y. full report will come sometime tomorrow but I'm taking a break after something like 6.5 hrs of reading. Only a few more!
Wendy Churchill
37. LadyTaurean
OMG, this book evoked so many reactions and emotions from me. I literally yelled out "What the hell is going on with Aviendha???" so loud I scared my cat. I bawled so energetically during the Rand/Semi/Min scene that he then came back to see what the hell was wrong with ME. I actually think Gawyn is on his way to finding his center, and that impressed me. Still too much to fully process... just WOW!
Vecki
38. vecki
Ok, I haven't got the book yet, but I generally find spoilers do not bother me (usually because I've forgotten them all before I get around to reading the book).

I'm going on a book hunt today for it, but due to a whole plethora of factors I won't be able to start reading it, even if I do find it, until tomorrow.

That said, sounds AWESOME. Yes, that's ALLCAPS AWESOME.

~*~
vecki
Jonah Feldman
39. relogical
Damn! Just finished the book, and hell, yeah! It was awesome. I mean, I hated everything Rand did, but it was so well done, especially the ending. I'm glad he won't be like that for the next two. Regarding him using the True Power, I guess it could have something to do with Moridin, but my first thought was that he reversed the a'dam and took the TP from Semirhage. On a side note, why the hell did Moridin tell him about the resurrection/balefire thing?

Brandon did an amazing job getting into the characters' thoughts. It made Rand's character arc unbelievably emotional.

Cadsuane should have thought things through better, but she didn't do anything too unreasonable.

Egwene is the most awesomest, greatest character ever. Except Rodel Ituralde. Oh, and frakking Verin was even more awesome than that. And Gawyn was better than usual. I liked Bryne mentoring him and asking where the hell Gawyn's logic has been for the past eight books.

No word on who Demandred and Mesaana are? Who killed Asmodean? Drat.

My least favorite parts were the ones I was looking forward to most: Rand meeting Tuon, Rand meeting Hurin, Rand meeting Tam. Ouch. Maybe they can give him another chance now that Rand is slightly saner?

And of course, I am very conflicted about Elaida's fate. Should I party, or just jump with joy?
Justin Levitt
40. TyranAmiros
First, the book was AWESOME (@38 :) )

My two put-the-book-down-and-walk-away moments of disbelief were Rand's fight with Semirhage and his attack on Graendal. But at the same time, add me to the list of people skeptical Graendal is really dead.

I think BS did a really good job with Egwene and the resolution of the tower split. One noticeable thing I struggled with was that it did feel like a book split in half--so little development on Perrin and Mat, no Elayne (not that I mind this), no Padan Fain. I did love the return of Beslan and thought Tuon was awesome as usual, though it was strange to see Selucia in her new role. I can't wait for Mat to finish rescuing Moiraine so we can get Mat, Rand, and Fortuona in the same room.

New theory time--Rand uses the True Source to hold the DO back as the bore is sealed, thus keeping saidin and saidar from getting tainted.
Wilson Grooms
41. moondivatx
OK!!! I just need to know...did Min die?
William Fettes
42. Wolfmage
relogical @ 39

"I guess it could have something to do with Moridin, but my first thought was that he reversed the a'dam and took the TP from Semirhage."

Nah, the TP can't be used without the Dark One's blessing. So Rand might have been able to sense it better via his link with Moridin, but he could only access it as part of the DO's will.

"On a side note, why the hell did Moridin tell him about the resurrection/balefire thing?"

I've always thought that Ishmael was way more important than other Foresaken; he doesn't really care about their deaths. In many ways they're not important. There's never been any true competition for Naeblis only an illusory contest. In that sense, he's the one not motivated by selfishness - contra Verin's dicta.

"And Gawyn was better than usual. I liked Bryne mentoring him and asking where the hell Gawyn's logic has been for the past eight books."

Yes, it's an improvement for me because it sets him on the right path for a change.

TyranAmiros @ 40

"New theory time--Rand uses the True Source to hold the DO back as the bore is sealed, thus keeping saidin and saidar from getting tainted."

As above, I don't think you can draw the TP (not TS) without the DO's sanction.
Justin Levitt
43. TyranAmiros
Wolfmage @ 42

Possibly, but I'm not sure why the DO would have given Rand permission to balefire Semi, particularly since Semi's forcing Rand to kill Min would probably have broken Rand forever. I don't think we know enough about the True Power to take the Forsaken at their word, particularly those who rarely use the TP.

Alternatively, if Rand is touching the TP through Moridin, who has permission, the DO may not be able to stop Rand.
Greg Bloom
44. MuleHeadedLummox
Just got done with my eight hour marathon read-through. Overall I thought this was an excellent addition to the series and found the endings of both major storylines to be very satisfying. I thought BS did very well and didn't really have any problems with the characterization except that Mat seemed to be played too much for humor. Granted, this was probably intentional as the funniest chapter in the book (Legends) comes immediately after one of the biggest WHAT THE HELL! moments at the end of the previous chapter, so this was probably meant to be an emotional swing.

Rand's story arc was depressing, but I think it worked very well. When Rand started to flip out on Tam I seriously thought that he was going to end up killing his own father. We see Rand slipping further and further down the path of insanity, before finally coming to grips with himself at the end. His continual fear of being 'boxed' was never so explicitly stated by RJ as it was in TGS, but Rand's story arc in this book called for him to go over the edge before coming back, and I think it worked well.

Egwene's arc was also satisfying, and I actually like Gawyn for a few seconds of it, although they came and went (mostly went). Am I the only one that loved how she shot him down at the end? She's grown up, now it's his turn if he wants to be her Warder. I agree that this storyline has the moments of awesome, while Rand's has the dark moments and the WTF moments, keeping the book from being overly dark. The Siuan/Bryne scene where she explains her motives was one of the best in the book IMHO. I also noticed something Leigh has pointed out in her re-read, that while people in WOT tend to not share information, when they do share information, it tends to meet with positive results, and this lowering of her defences eventually leads to Bryne trusting Siuan enough to ask to be both her Warder and husband.

"A Visit from Verin Sedai" and Egwene's actions during the Seanchan Raid where the other two parts of the book that could definitely be called Crowning Moments of Awesome for their respective characters. I'm interested in seeing exactly what the Seanchan will get up to in the next two books, but hopefully Rand will be in a better state of mind to deal with it.

Aviendha and Min also both got some decent development. I pegged Avi's punishments as some sort of final Wise One test right off, but I didn't realize exactly what she had to do to pass that test. I just wish we had seen her again at some point. (How long does it take her to get to Rhuidean anyway?) I liked the scene where Min shows up Beldeine in prophecy interpretation.

On that note, my theory on the prophecy 'He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.' is as follows. The reason for the flaw in Callandor that magnifies the taint is that Callandor is somehow linked to the True Power as well as saidin. Rand will need to use Callandor in a weaving of all three Powers: saidin, saidar, and the True Power. This may be in the sealing, where he will form a buffer with the TP, and repair the pattern with both saidin and saidar.

Finally, I felt that Perrin's storyline was mostly a placeholder, to avoid having him absent from the book entirely as he was in TFoH. Although it was nice to see him and Faile, (and Faile more grown up from her experiences as a Shaido captive), not much really happened here. Of course, we are given several very tantilizing hints of what is to come in both his and Mat's storylines. We know that Perrin will indeed meet up with Galad, and that Morgase's identity will come out, although we'll have to wait for Towers of Midnight to find out how. And I'm probably not the only one who can't wait to find out what Verin wants Mat to do for her.
Henry Loose
45. schrodinger
3/4ths the way through it and so far all i've had to eat today was two nutrigrain bars for breakfast. its now almost 10 and i have to stop to eat something. all i have to say so far is f-ing BadAss.
William Fettes
46. Wolfmage
TyranAmiros @ 43

"Possibly, but I'm not sure why the DO would have given Rand permission to balefire Semi, particularly since Semi's forcing Rand to kill Min would probably have broken Rand forever."

Interesting point. That does make sense.

"I don't think we know enough about the True Power to take the Forsaken at their word, particularly those who rarely use the TP."

We're had a fair bit of confirmation though. We know that from the Age of Legends a total of 30 people, including Ishmael, were 'given' access. Then we have Foresaken in the current age thinking that Moridin was crazy to use so much TP, implying that it was open to them to use it if they accepted the risks. But then we have Moridin in Winter's Heart with exclusive access now that he is Naeblis. That seems pretty conclusive to me.

"Alternatively, if Rand is touching the TP through Moridin, who has permission, the DO may not be able to stop Rand."

That would be one way to solve the problem of the DO seemingly giving Semi one last chance, whilst explaining how Rand could access it.

If it's true, then your theory might work, although it seems kinda unfair that Rand has to use the a connection to the DO to win.
Wilson Grooms
47. David DeLaney
I have read the book. I haven't read Leigh's spoiler-post yet. I do have to contribute the following, though:

Subway - footlong tuna cheese mayo mustard lettuce onion oil vinegar salt pepper oregano, XL Dr Pepper, 2 cookies

... no wait, wrong cut and paste. Let me try again:

The Wall of Books grows, and series come and pass, leaving reviews that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is forgotten when the series that gave it birth comes again. In one series, called unending by some, a series long past, a series yet to come, a sequel arose around the high Tor. The sequel was not the beginning; neither was it the end. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the growing of the Wall of Books. ...But it was the beginning of _an_ end.

Having finished the book (with a 4-hour nap, then a rehearsal, in the middle, neither really by choice)? I have to completely agree with Leigh's previous spoiler-free review: ... holy SHIT.

People were complaining that nothing was happening in some of the previous books. :) I don't think we'll get that in the future.

(And ... there's TWO MORE TO COME YET. *twitch*)

--Dave
Tony Zbaraschuk
48. tonyz
Squee.

Actually, squee-squee-squee.

For the Egwene plotline, anyway. She is so incredibly awesome all through this that it hurts my brain to contemplate it. Particularly her interactions with Silviana, but watching her with a circle of novices drawing through a sa'angreal to blast dragons from the sky... darn it, that should have been the cover. Someone better do a fanart piece of that.

The Rand plotline hurt, badly. Not that it wasn't well-written, but watching him do that to himself, boy did it hurt. Though the moment where he explains his reasoning to Nynaeve, that's pretty incredible (as is the fact that she doesn't have an answer; there's really no *rational* answer to that sort of despair, you have to pull out on the strength of other things.) And it was very interesting seeing that for both Rand and Egwene, the moment of calm peacefulness among normal folk was the moment of sanity-restoration.

Much good and funky stuff. There are a couple of places where I think Sanderson hit the "here's a metaphor" button a little too hard, but... on the whole, it really works very well.

Structurally, the book was much better balanced than some of the previous ones. Rapid inter-character flipping, not long-drawn-out passages on one character. Reasonable balance of appearances, and some really awesome moments by so many characters.

Oh, and I think the DO was deliberately using up Semirhage for that moment. He let Rand channel the True Power, and he's the one wanting people to use balefire (the only way out of that situation. Remember, he and Ishamael DON'T want to kill Rand. If they wanted to kill Rand, they could have done so pretty much any time the last eleven books.
Wilson Grooms
49. Planeswalker
jwdenzel @20:

hahaha, so happy i found that dragonmount forum for TGS spoilers. one week ahead was getting me fidgety wanting someone to talk to too. i can't imagine months ahead!

@Leigh

good recap of scenes. weird for me though because although i find so many great scenes, only one gave me the goosebumps - Egwene+novices vs Seanchan raid... I have to agree with your fast recap still.

Here are my Top 3s of scenes with meanings:

Disregarded Exits:
1. Mishima - really, no one cares though
2. Graendal - i think she's dead. But w0w, no body? no fight? Oh dear, and I would have wanted more HalimaxGraendal!!! =)
3. Black Ajah (aka Sheriam, et al) - tempted to place Elaida here but I guess we'll be seeing more of her later.

Gone Bonkers:
1. Rand - stone to steel to cuendillar to cotton??? hehehe
2. Elaida - i can't remember her going this crazy in KoD. must be Mesaana's work...
3. Villagers/Zombies - the DO really has twisted the Pattern bad.

Next Book Expectations:
1. Verin's Letter to Mat - Verin's sneakiness til the end! =)
2. Callandor - how will this be used to seal the DO? now that CK is destroyed. Min is getting the idea, but somehow Cadsuane already knows about this
3. Rand meets Seanchan vs Aes Sedai - however will these 3 powers form our group of Light

Moments of Awesomeness:
1. Ooh Ooh Girl Egwene and Novices - I still wouldn't put her at the top all time just because she still thinks to 'guide' Rand. Well, all AS do... Anyways, here in TGS, she owns it.
3. Ituralde - great great General.
4. Cadsuane vs Semirhage - see what pride can do??? Oh and Leigh, spanking? definitely they conspire against you. =)
5. Min - "This is what we all get when we try to control Rand!" - at least one of them is wise enough to see. I heart Min.

Unexpected Twists:
1. Verin - I'm sorry, I wasn't that enamored with her final hour. It's mostly because Egwene gets all the credit of killing those BA. I know she could never do it herself. But at least for 70 years, she could have had done something more than just a book (of course, she's Brown) for Egwene to take action. Really now, maybe it's just me but I'm more excited with her letter to Mat. And not with the invisible book.
2. Rand's reunion with Tam and Hurin - Well Rand was crazy... but fans have been waiting for this too long, and that's what happened?
3. Rand and Min and Choeden Kal and True Power and Balefire-abuse and Lews Therin (That line though that says "there never was a Lews Therin inside him" made me think that Leigh was really right. It was only memories from LTT and not a separate entity. Though, earlier he also mentioned "second chance". Oh well, Brandon should have been more specific with this. Debates are on again.)
Wilson Grooms
50. Be'Lal
For how much happened, surprisingly few longstanding issues are definitively cleared up. By my count, the following WOTFAQ questions are definitively answered:

1.5.4 [Sheriam]
2.2.7 [Verin!!]
2.6.4 [AS Money--doubtless everyone was waiting for that one]
2.6.5 [Too-Young Sitters]

On the other hand, the following sections of the WOTFAQ should have new material added, but questions are still outstanding:
1.1.1 [FS ID]
1.1.2 [Mesaana ID]
1.1.6 [DoA--slight light on Graendal, none on Lanfear/Cyndane]
1.2.3 [Moridin--still mysteriously linked]
1.3.2 [TP]
1.3.3 [BA Oaths--only one revealed]
1.3.4 [Seals & Taint]
1.3.5 [BA and Warders--questions linger. What happened to Elza's?]
1.4.06 [new dreadlords--MIA BA?]
1.5.5 [Chesa!]
1.5.7!! [LF: lots of names to add post-Purge, but questions remain]
1.5.8 [DF: ditto]
2.1.6!! [LTT]
2.1.7!! [3d Man]
2.2.2 [Gawyn]
2.3.02 [Sad bracelets--Seanchan can make heartstone now?]
2.3.03 [OR: multiple oath effect, or When Will Pevara Drop Dead From Oath OD?]
2.3.07 BF and paradoxes
2.3.14 7SSR
2.6.6 Military Roundup
2.6.8 [Betrayal CC plot in COT: still not answered?!?]
2.7.5 [new Icons!]
2.7.6 [Errors: I expect spirited debate over the degree to which Brandon retconned logical inconsistencies of the earlier books]
Most of section 4--4.2 beggar staff fulfilled?

And of course, new questions could be added:
Is Graendal really dead? [Yes]
Rand and the TP--DO's plan, or not?
Why would Moridin tell Rand about BF'ing the FS?
What is Up with the BOTO? [That section should have been added after PoD, really, but we still don't know]

And, in the interests of completeness, a list of sections that should have been updated after KOD, but haven't been yet despite certain Oaths, that we didn't learn much new about in TGS:
1.1.9
1.2.1
1.2.2
1.4.09
1.4.12
1.5.1
1.5.6
1.6.3
2.1.1
2.1.8
2.2.4
2.2.6
2.3.13?
2.6.7
May we expect the Brown Ajah to get with it already?
Wilson Grooms
51. Darkhero
It seems to me Moridin told rand about Balefiring to destroy the pattern. Ol' Mori doesn't seem like he really loves the pattern and wants it to maybe end cause he's tried of being reborn, easiest way is to have Rand Either Balefire him or use enough of it to destroy the pattern. The Dark One would then win by default.
William Fettes
52. Wolfmage
[BA Oaths--only one revealed]

I count 2?

1. Don't betray DO
2. Keep secrets until hour of death.
3. Profit?
William Fettes
53. Wolfmage
Yeah, I'd say the chances of Graendal being alive are minuscule. Samuel's death had far more ambiguity to it and he was toast. This is pretty clear cut unless you think someone else compelled him and they got balefired.
Leigh Butler
54. leighdb
Wolfmage @35:

I didn't bring it up in the review, but I disagree with you about Mat, more or less. I got used to the new Mat as his POVs went on, but it was definitely not the same character voice in my opinion. And that first analogy was actively painful.

I have hopes, though, that he will improve once he actually has something to do.

To numerous folks:

One thing to keep in mind in the Moridin/TP debates is that Graendal's POV in the Prologue shows that this link between Moridin and Rand goes both ways. Rand was getting eviller, so what might be happening to Moridin?
gaylord dean
55. DeadlyArgon
now, THAT IS ONE GREAT BOOK!!!
well worth the wait.
great work BS and thanks!
for not letting RJ down...
your work is by no means a disappointment.
can't wait for the next one.

oh and shadar@33 were you saying that Elaida is Black? Verin expressly wrote that she is not. Or did i misunderstand you? Anyways, Verin is really great! Over the years i can not decide wether to think her Black or she just discovered that the oaths can be removed (in my regard, she is smart enough to have figured it out). Turns out i was waaaaaaaay underestimating her. What she did puts her, for me, in the same light as Moiraine. It really is a pity that Saerin took the rod when it was Verin who needs it most.

What's up with Laras anyway?

About Rand, he was easily the most irritating person in most parts of the book, too cold, too hard-headed, too....annoying hehehe. I'm still unsure wether to wish that she got Graendal with that monstrous balefire or that she got away so that they can get down to a real showdown of powers (because it seems that the all the women FS, except for Lanfear, lose too easily. why?) i was really really really glad when at his last chapter i got to say "he's back". yay!!!!

Although i think that Elaida deserved what she got i was not entirely happy with the way it was told, i was thinking that it would have been more satisfying had the scene been like that where Adelorna almost got captured, except that she, of course, lost. i think the wall falling down on her is too convenient for her. but at least, she won't be able to use that bungling mind of hers anymore. how the hell did someone like that end up being advisor to a queen anyway? now, suffer much SUFFA! (evil laughter!)

That was great about Egwene, she's one of my faves now.Ü

Where's Fain? Hope Rand or anybody else gets to kill him before they march for Shayol Ghul...hehehe

oh, and i reckon the answer to what that prophecy Min was trying to decipher was that Rand would have to use saidin, saidar and the TP to seal up the hole on the DO's prison once again. That may be the way to avoid tainting saidin again.
Wilson Grooms
56. David DeLaney
Couple minor points:

We do see Rand thinking he _still_ doesn't know where Asmodean is. Hopefully that'll get cleared up in one of the remaining two.

From the Glossary: I don't know if anyone's pointed this out before ... but the 'calendar' entry makes it clear that the Third Age is -after- our own. How? By showing that the year's length is slightly LONGER than it is today - 365.35 days, compared to today's 365.242197 ...

--Dave

PS: My captcha is "David corrupts". MUA HA HAAAAA!
Holly Finnen-Stewart
57. Branwhin
Okay. Doing something I haven't done much here, because I have to tell somebody or I'm going to explode: relating my first impressions without reading everybody else's comments first.

Leigh; no, flaming kidding! Holy SHIT!!!! I've just gotten off the roller coaster.

The Dark One is in Very. Deep. Guano. The Dragon rides again on the Winds of Time! /smug And as many predicted (hoped? I was one) Tam was the key. Not, though, in any way I would have hoped. Poor kid. And poor Da! Here's hoping Tam gets his hug really soon.

I think Brandon (and Jordan) both wanted us to get a hold of Rand again. He'd been slipping too far from us in the past few books; so hard most of us (thank the Light) couldn't identify with him. The cracks in his wall early on, even though we knew Semi was on the loose...

...and a sharp swat to Jahar and any other Borderman(person) who had the brilliant idea to keep a Forsaken in the DARK, no matter how demoralizing it might be!!! Mind you, Mr Superfade might be having an easier time with that these days.

Rand ... oh, lovey. I didn't quite cry till the end of the book when the ice broke finally, but ... OW! And here I sat (or lay cozily with a cat curled up about my person), mentally screaming at him ... no, you idiot, don't touch, don't go there ... oh, shit. You did that. Hurin's right, he's really stinky. That said I don't really see what *else* he could have done there.

Wow. I'm in a haze of absolute bliss, here. Well done, Team Jordan! Thank you most profoundly, Harriet, Brandon! RJ (can't call him Jim, sorry, it seems ... overly familiar somehow) is smiling.

Cadsuane was there in the roller coaster with me, too - up and down like a proverbial yo-yo. She most certainly had the right idea ... I've been mentally shrieking at Rand to quit acting like Aridhol for a while now ... but she went about it in the most irritating manner possible.

And Verin?????? AAAAAUGH! Sneaky, sneaky Verin ... I love you anyway, dear, rest in peace. Oh, hi, Verin! You're ... oh, so you *did* remove the Oath someho... WTF!!!???? Wait, wait, but the Black can't *talk* about... Oh. Er, well then.

Daigian. Dammit. Though Nynaeve very much FTW ... particularly as she stands to benefit most from the power structure as it stands. FTW in general, actually; well done Wisdom!

Some definite Egwene Awesomesauce, too - from her resistance, to changing tactics with the ground crumbling underfoot, to Silviana Brehon for Keeper. Very, very cool.

And a big AWWWWW for Siuan and Gareth. And Gawyn has found his brains! Somewhat. I still want to swat him for believing baseless rumour, but well, if somebody I'd met once was rumoured to have killed my parent/s and was running about claiming to be ... hmm. Won't go any further with that one.

Kay. Hi, Hurin! Good to see you again ... poor thing. You weren't expecting that, were you dear.

Right. I'll shut up now. Except for JOY!!!! And I'm almost happiest to be sharing my joy with such a wonderful group of people. Thanks, Leigh!

Brannie
Wilson Grooms
58. douglasm
Wow. This book has easily claimed the #1 spot on my favorite books of all time list. Well done, Mr. Sanderson, very well done.

My personal favorite scene was the entire sequence with Egwene during the Seanchan attack. No dose of forkroot tea is going to stop her from fighting back, no sir.

There were two major moments near the beginning of that where I felt like actually cheering out loud:
1) Someone actually did something intelligent for once. Specifically, Egwene kept her head and gave the novices a crash course in linking that allowed her to use their power with her skill, neatly circumventing the whole forkroot problem.
2) Someone (again, Egwene) actually went and used some of that giant stockpile of *greal the White Tower has. The overwhelmingly dominant tendency of the WT to gather objects of the power and then leave them to collect dust, even the ones they understand like, say, every last one of the angreals and sa'angreals, has been an immense annoyance to me for a large part of the series.

And then there's the whole imagery of her standing there in the blasted hole in the Tower, hair streaming in the wind, blasting down every Seanchan in sight and doing a better job of fighting back than the entire rest of the Tower combined. I loved the little moment of confusion and dawning comprehension when the Aes Sedai near the base of the Tower learned about it.
Henry Loose
59. schrodinger
*contented sigh* just finished. And I completely agree. Holy SHIT! that was amazing. So many new things, with more questions than answers, but my main question: will the hit be good? was answered. It was GOOD. Oh so good. After finishing it my mind has shut down and i'm on autopilot. I expect to reboot in the morning and spend the next few weeks of my life rereading this book and the series as a whole. I might be able to form coherent arguments on this book. My mind is melted from all the awesomeness of this book (I paused at least 6 times during my reading to do happy dances). Two more years before Nirvana though, but this was pretty damn close.
Wilson Grooms
60. kab1
Just got done. It's way too late to write anything coherent, but had to come on here and see others comments.

The book left me feeling dazed. woah. so much happened.

Egwene and her actions during the Seanchan attack were particularly awesome.

and of course sneaky Verin, I love her! I'm particularly excited to see the rest of her orders play out, I think Mat said he saw a number of the sealed letters in her pouch. What about all of the BA that were executed, will the DO be bringing them back to life? I know they are not strong channelers in respect to the Forsaken, but better than nada? Or maybe the DO is satisfied with what's going on at the BT- we got a glimpse of that. I'm worried for Pevara.

@20 and others I do think that Rand channeling the TP has to do with his link to Moridin. Not sure why, but the fact that Moridin can channel it and they are "linked" seems important.

The part where I was most stunned was when Semi had Rand collared and he was hurting Min, I totally thought he was going to kill her. My whole body tensed up and my eyes skipped to the bottom of the page looking for her name again and if she was alive. I had to set the book down afterwards.

The entire book was awesome, great job Mr Jordan and Mr. Sanderson. I really enjoyed the flow of the book and the short constantly changing POVs throughout.
Wilson Grooms
61. stargazer
Let the speculatin' and analyzin' begin!

OK, so Verin: definitely Awesome. But also still mysterious and sneaky. Why did she choose right *now* for her big reveal, and why did she choose Egwene? What made her decide to leave Tear and head for Tar Valon, rather than either (a) biding her time longer for another attempt to see if she could actually get the Oath Rod and de-darkify herself somehow, or else just (b) having her Last Conversation with, say, Cadsuane and Nynaeve instead. Or Rand, for that matter.

As far as I can tell, when she headed north, she had no idea exactly what sort of situation she was headed into. Why was she confident enough to traipse across half the continent to find Egwene imprisoned in a war zone? I can't remember clearly enough her last scenes in KoD, and I don't have my copy at hand right now. What was the trigger that made her, after 70 years of very excellent sneaking and spying, to decide the time was up?

@40 - I had the exact same thought regarding sealing this time. The other option would be that *this* is why Rand has to die, to prevent the re-tainting through him. If LTT was touching the Dark One during the sealing, then maybe the DO reached through the weaves and through LTT to get at the Source to taint it. Arrange things such that Rand unleashes the sealing weave at precisely the same time as his blood is shed on the rocks etc. Then the DO gets sealed in and doesn't have a conduit to try Taint Mark II.


The moment of biggest surprise for me that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else yet: Rand vaporizing the Choedan Kal. Ever since the saidar half got slagged during the Cleansing, I'd been wondering how Rand and co were going to fight the Dark One with such an unbalanced superweapon. Huh. That solution did *not* cross my mind. Nope. I think I'm putting my money on Callandor with Rand and his two channeling sweeties now. (With Min nearby directing strategy. I really do hope she's the one who figures out the necessary clever solution for resealing...)


Puzzle the second (though this one's not nearly as fun to debate...): So, um, about that Taim guy? Yeah, wonder what he's been up to lately...
Zachary A
62. Zeal
This book was really freaking tense and exceptionally well done.

My only real complaint is how Mat and Talmanes are portrayed. Mat was my favourite character and I found my skimming through his chapters because they were just so damned painful. Sadly, I didn't even miss much because the majority of his chapters are an important event dominated by Mat and Talmanes being turned into some kind of hyuckabilly Statler and Waldorf routine. I kept expecting an excange like:

Talmanes: Hey, Mat! Why do they do they call it the one power?
Mat: Because you certainly wouldn't want it twice!
DOHOHOHOHOHO

Which, is really not how Mat's character voice should be. Mat's humour has always been more wry and dry than hyucktastic back and forths. I think the main problem here is that Sanderson tried to write Mat as funny but it's both the wrong kind of funny and, additionally, completely lacking in humour.

But the worst thing done to Mat, I feel, is that Mat the Commander who oozed an almost arrogantly nonchalant confidence has been replaced with He Who Must Be Constantly Second Guessed By His Subordinates. It's just URGH. Mat is meant to know how to lead and command it's kind of his thing. What was that crap with Vanin and Roidelle? You don't let your army get lost for days because your head scout is jealous of your cartographer. It just isn't how Mat would run a command.

And, while I am griping, what was the deal with his whining? Sure, Mat will kvetch and grouse til the cows come home. But out and out whining? Nonononono.

In conclusion: Really liked the book, didn't like how Mat was portrayed.
matt
63. mattyh
@54 leighdb
"Rand was getting eviller, so what might be happening to Moridin?"

my guess is that moridin would be getting randy, or randier.

jokes aside, their interaction is going to be interesting, now that rand has found himself again.
Wilson Grooms
64. Planeswalker
I've been hearing comments about Mat being different in this book. I guess Brandon will be having a harder time in the next (Tower of Genjei) or easier one once he gets the fans input. I'm hoping Mat will be Mat in the next book, Brandon won't even try to be that humorous. =)

@Everyone

Where are you guys? In your bunkers? I'm assuming there should be no more twitches now. C'mon let's get the discussion going!!! =)
Pete Pratt
65. PeteP
I totally agree that Mat's voice sounded completely off. I do hope Brandon does better next book (or he may end up ruining my favorite character)
Helen Peters
66. Helen
I've not read the posts yet as I'm still only halfway through. But I have a question. Where did Rand's sword come from that he remembers it as one of his memories, not as one of LTT's memories? Is it LTT's sword that he saw in the ancestratron back in Rhuidean? I'd go and look (it's TSR isn't it?), but don't want to be reading 2 wot books at once and totally confuse myself.

Edit - also am I the only person who never noticed the first a in Ishamael's name until one of the first chapters where someone went 'Isha-'???
James Jones
67. jamesedjones
OMG This - was - a - terrible - book. Please be aware that every non-spoiler review we saw came from someone with a vested interest in seeing the book succeed. It stunk! And (although I hate to say it) the book should never have been split.

Mat went from a clever scoundrel to being a clueless buffoon. If you've read the other works by BS, you'll know Mat came directly from Alcatraz. His humor was no longer sharp; it was long and boring. In Alcatraz this is incredible, and very clever, because his rambling diversions are part of the humor. But BS could not pull off Mat.

Aviendha came across as painfully dense to anyone who has read Feist's Riftwar saga. Her part should have been no more than one chapter that started with her hand in the bucket! The other shaming punishments could have been 1-2 paragraphs each, and seen from retrospective.

Rand should have been 3 chapters, MAX. Semi escapes and tortures him, which he escapes. He goes to Arad Domon, pisses off the Aiel, and finds Greandal, whom he balefires. He leaves Arad Domon, deals with some family drama, and finds he can cry while continuing his never-ending whining. Done.

After dealing with Egwene, which was a HUGE waste of Aes Sedai and soldiers (Gawyn) thinking and agonizing over doing nothing, this book should have been 100,000 words. And it still would have been one of the most boring and uneventful in the series. Bah!
F Shelley
68. FSS
I'll try to post more later, but wanted to get this out of my head quickly:

Since Rand balefired the shit out of Graendal using the Choeden Kal.

And since the prevailing theory of readers is that she killed Asmodean (I still say Lanfear did, but I can't think how she did it), let's use that for little discussion (I'm sure you all see where I'm headed).

Will we see Asmodean show before Tarmon Gaidon? How weird would that be ? After all, there's a flippin reason everyone stopped using balefire.

Or, how about Sammael? Would he have died without Graendal manipulating him? Is that the reason someone matching his description is ordering Shadowspawn around? I know the memory of someone's actions should remain after they're balefired, but RJ did posit the problems with the ripple effect of balefire.
F Shelley
69. FSS
OK - as for the larger issue of the book:

OK, I admit, I was worried about the different tone in CH 1 a few weeks ago, but you know, it sorta acted as an innoculation against the different tone, and I was able (with a couple of exceptions) to ignore the difference and just enjoy the story.

And the story, I thought, was very good!! Oh, we could go on about Mat being more whiny (although Talmanes' transformation into semi-funny person was a larger leap for me). And there were some scenes I thought should be included (Galad and Morgase), but overall, seeing the various plotlines resolved and Rand's development to evil and (hopefully) back to good (we don't know the results of his epiphany yet) made this a very satisfying read.

I won't argue with the people who hated it. If you hate the book, or are just disappointed with it, I certainly won't argue with you, and I hope you didn't waste too much money on it. But I really loved it, and was afraid I'd despise it, so I'm pleasantly surprised and very happy.

Of course, I read teh thing in about 8 hours yesterday, broken only by going to get my kid from school and then dinner, so my brain is still spinning. I will be re-reading it more slowly now over the next week or so, and may find more nuggets to nit-pick. But today I am very happy this book was written, and can't wait to read the next 2 books.
Rachel Vines
70. metria31183
I finished the book last night, and it was a great book. I had read this review before I started on the book, I knew what was coming, but I was still pleasantly surprised at the way some events played out (Verin's death specifically).

I only have two realy criticisms:

While Mat was funny to me in this book, he was still over the top. This was not Robert Jordan's Mat. I hope Sanderson has toned him down for the next book since Mat will be a major character.

Secondly:

Seriously, ZOMBIES? WTF? ZOMBIES? Are you fucking kidding me? (I acutally yelled this out when I was reading that chapter. My husband though I had lost it). I truly don't get why everyone is obsessed with zombies today (but that's a rant for another time). I thought that chapter was one of the worst nods to pop culture ever. I really wanted to stop and chunk the book across the room when I read it. Please BS, no more effing zombies!!!!!
Sam Kelly
71. Eithin
I'll start by saying I liked it, and in many respects it rocked. Much appreciation to Sanderson for that. Egwene and Verin and a few others get to show off the unambiguously good parts of the Aes Sedai, and Nynaeve seems to be recovering from her attack of comicreliefitis. The Battle of the White Tower easily outclasses Dumai's Wells in sheer awesomeness, and the sensible characters (Egwene, Bryne, Nynaeve on a good day) appear to have started handing out clues to the others.

On the other hand, I'm now going to complain about the relatively few things I didn't like, because I have much more to say about those than the more numerous good parts.

Mat: where was he? Who was this misogynist comic-relief stranger? The false-identities scene was sidesplitting, but it wasn't either a) Mat or b) any actual character. It's straight from an AD&D party. I'd honestly rather not see him onscreen at all, and just hear about - or be able to imagine - what he's doing.

The White Tower BA-hunters: they used to rock, but here they just got unceremoniously pushed into the sidelines for fear of stealing some of Egwene's glory. She really does have enough of her own that she shouldn't have any fear of sharing.

Cadsuane: I'm not sure whether she got mishandled, or her inner risible incompetence got revealed. Everyone's talked her up since she appeared, but she hasn't actually done much of anything useful, and here she just makes a succession of arrogant rookie mistakes. Assuming that Semirhage would do anything except laugh at torture? This parallels Rand's method of dealing with Graendal. You never, ever play a Forsaken at their own game. Worse, Cadsuane appears to be infecting Sorilea with crapness.

Semirhage: she breaks to one session of mild humiliation, and can't bear to miss a meal? Oh, dear. And, regarding the ongoing spanking discussion: here, Cadsuane is specifically and purposely doing it because it's the most socially humiliating thing she can think of. It's just not something you do to anyone you respect.

The Asha'man: at least we're getting a start on their true potential. Never mind faffing around with blowing up heads like melons when you can Travel. On the other hand, I sincerely hope the next book opens in Caemlyn, with one of Perrin's Asha'man bringing a cloaked-and-hooded Morgase to see her daughter, because the only possible excuse for not doing that and a whole pile of similar things is an Idiot Ball the size of the Choedan Kal.
Rikka Cordin
72. Rikka
okay. bullet points.

I think Mat went hella cray-cray and I'm upset about it (when did he go from being badass and entertaining to being ridiculous and overly paranoid?).

Egwene has been on the rise since she embraced he Aiel heart and that train ain't stopping anytime soon. Looks like she's taken over the badassery train.

Siuan + Gareth = winz0r.

Aviendha is both dense and very absent! DISLIKE.

What happened to Elayne?

And the Black Tower?

And Lan? (screen time over lip service any day, kthnxbai)

I'm still hella excited for Moiraine to get rescued.

I was so right about Verin!

When did Cadsuane get so petty?

Thank god Tam came back.
James Jones
73. jamesedjones
OK. Verin was awesome, and her ending was awesome, and her sneakiness was awesome. Loved Her!

But it did not make up for the book. And, I gotta admit, I lost a lot of respect for Jason and Leigh for their non-spoiler reviews. Both of them had my admiration and respect for their brutally honest assesment of the WOT. That went out the window, and Leigh was only slightly redeemed in this post.

Disappointment, you are bitter.
Wilson Grooms
74. Tabernerus
The whole Egwene thread qualifies as one of my new favorite terms: Competency Porn.

There's something so very freaking refreshing about watching a competent person go about their job in an effective manner. Particularly in WoT. Wow. It's like all the scenes of Lan, Ituralde, and Bryne rolled into one and then amplified. It was awesome.

Seriously, the Light should just put her in charge of the whole damn show, and get out of the way.

Woot!
F Shelley
75. FSS
Oh, and Tuon's new name. I really hated it. All I could think was "Fortuona favors the foolish". Bah.

And the Avienda thing took too long, too. I figured out the whole "can-she-call-them-on-the-unfair-test-thing" as soon as it appeared. Not that I'm smarter than Avienda; it was in the plot of a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode (where all wisdom begins)...
Philip Thomann
76. normalphil
Cadsuane: The thing that got revealed to me was; "Great idea. Failed execution due to deep seated institutional factors."

For ex; Dredging up Tam? Damn near saved the world, and that was all her. Keeping direct control of the execution by loading him up as a talking Aes Sedai hand-puppet? Made it a near reality-destroying disaster.

Worked out in the end, but whew.
Kristina Blake
77. kab1
okay, so I'd have to agree with jej's assessment of the Avi storyline. I pretty much knew where that was going after her first useless punishment. I wish this had been a bit shorter. Maybe her remembering many punishments and one scene where she agonizes over her toh, but really to cut to the chase and have her say she's a WO already. Overall, I think this arc is ok for a first read through, but won't be something I'll enjoy reading over and over. EDIT- I see FFS agrees as well.

Additionally, I'd agree with Eithin @71, I don't think Semi would break down after one spanking session with Cads. I can see her showing some signs of disliking it, but I would think more sessions of humiliation would be necessary (off screen please) before she would eat off the floor.

On Cads herself, I would agree with Jason that I think she's well written for the most part, but I disliked the scene with Rand when he banishes her. I don't think this was true to the unflappable character we've seen thus far. While I think she truly may have been at a loss for words and shocked to the core, I think in this case she would have just been silent and/or said "very well" and not broken off mid-sentence or seemed floundering for words as she was portrayed in that scene.

as for Mat- yeah, I thought he seemed a bit off, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I think I was reading his parts too fast, as I was like, are they at the Tower? nope. speedread. I think some of the comments on his humor may be right. I'm going to have to reread his parts and see what seems different to me and compare to him now to all his scene in CoT in Luca's show.

Gawyn- made much progress in my opinion, at the point when he found out Egwene was amyrlin, I was literally yelling at him. See! See! you are on the wrong side!!! I can't wait till he finds out Morgase is alive. I also enjoyed Egwene being distant with him, and not so head over heels. They do need to have a long discussion. I think not so much about trying to save her from the tower (the freaking Seanchan were attacking afterall and everyone knows how much she hates them) but overall his lack of trust in her about Rand and the WT. Kinda bums me out that she chooses to get angry over his rescue of her (again- Seanchan!) as a trust issue and not all of his earlier trust issues. For all Siuan knew, Egwene was dosed with forkroot and could have been easily collared. Bah.
Wilson Grooms
78. deadly argon
@jamesedjones
honestly, you want to compress whole TGS? ok, do it, then post it. then wait and see how we'll take it. moreover, see how effing hard writing it would be. maybe then you could appreciate the effort put in writing it...

ok, i agree that mat isn't the mat we know and love but, in general, the whole book is great. i still agree with jason and leigh. this book rocks!
Leigh Butler
79. leighdb
jamesedjones @ 73:

I'm sorry you feel that way. And also a little puzzled, since hopefully you grant that people are allowed to have opinions differing from your own.

I can see losing respect for a person who holds the opinion that, say, the moon is square or wine comes from lemurs or something obviously wrong and/or stupid, but in such a subjective context as "do I like this book or not", especially one where so many people besides myself and Jason obviously disagree with you, I have to say I find your declaration of loss of respect a bit over the top, to say the least. I don't presume to tell you your business, but if your criteria for respect is based solely on how closely other people's opinions match yours, I predict you're in for a lot of disappointment in life.

Not to mention your extremely insulting implication in comment #67 that I only said I liked the book because I blog on Tor's website. If you really think I'm a such a heinous sellout, I have to wonder why you're even here.
James Jones
80. jamesedjones
52 Wolfmage

Did we ever get confirmation that there had to be 3 BA oaths?

79 leighdb

I never said you were a sellout. I just said you had a vested interest in the book, and that I lost a little respect for you. Am I not allowed to do that?

Edit: OK, maybe I'm not.
Wilson Grooms
81. CJB
In regard to Brandon's writing of Mat, I think he possibly tried too hard and was far too modern with the sense of humor (plus using phrases like "do the math" made me cringe a bit).

It's a bit like he pegged Mat as "the funny one" and went too far with it.

Overall I loved the book and I think most of the little problems I had are down to personal taste (eg, Graendal's disappointing end).
Jonah Feldman
82. relogical
I felt Mat was a little more comic-relief than usual, but he was still true to character. It's not like he can be all awesome all the time, and right now he's bitter and irritated because he has to feed his army on an aimless march north and his wife went back to care for her evil empire.

I didn't really mind Mat not doing that much since he was stuck in the middle of nowhere, but what the hell is Perrin still doing wherever he is? If the Asha'man are too tired to make a gateway for the whole army, then they should Gate over to the Black Tower, bring fifty Asha'man back, and have them do it! No excuses. Just when he was finished with the Subplot of Doom, they make him stand still for a book.

One other thing I just caught: when Verin met Mat, she seemed to be carrying other letters. Has she left instructions with anyone else?
James Jones
83. jamesedjones
79 leighdb

You expressed some disappointment in the book with the spoiler post. Why could you have not offered anything other than an amazing review in your non-spoiler post? Would it have spoiled anything to say that Mat didn't sound exactly like Mat?

No, you do not have to agree with me. I love the fact that your opinions differ a lot from my own. I find a great deal of value in your disappointment of parts that I absolutely loved (such as the end of LOC). I just took your non-spoiler post at face value, and jumped at the idea that this book would be one of the all time best, with no discernable problems. Yes, it was a let down.

I still love you Leigh. You're right up there with Verin. But I can't help but kick myself for thinking the non-spoiler post was a bonafide statement of the books value. It was my own foolishness.
Leigh Butler
84. leighdb
jamesedjones @ 80:

Of course you are. As I am allowed to be insulted by your implication therein.

Substituting the euphemism of "vested interest" in lieu of "sellout" does not in fact change the basic nature of what you're alleging.

relogical @82:

I kind of got the impression that Verin had a bunch of different letters *for Mat*, and she picked which one to use based on their conversation. I'm not sure why I think this, but I do. Because it's Sneakier, I guess.
Sam Mickel
85. Samadai
Holy shit is the correct assessment. I was as worried as the next person about how BS was going to pull it off but not anymore. This was without a doubt every bit as good as any of the better books by RJ.

Egwene has turned into the character of awesome. She got better with every scene. finally the great purge of the Blacks. Now they are running to join the the other dreadlords.

Verin is truly the ideal Brown Aes Sedai, anything for the sake of knowledge. She saved the White Tower at the cost of her soul.Although I know she came back to the light and was saved for another turning.

Poor Rand finally jumped off the sanity roller coaster and it damn near cost him everything again.

My moment of awesome is him questioning why he should allow the world to go on, and Lews Therin answering "we live to love again" and by doing so we bring back those we love "Ilyena" I love how he destroys the CK knowing its power was to great.

On Callandor, I am of two minds. one is that he links with Nynaeve and Alivia (them being the 2 strongest channelers) and in the process learning how Alivia will help him die and live again.
The second has Narishma linked with Nynaeve and Alivia using Callandor to remake the Dark Ones prison as Rand uses his link to Moridin to use the true power to cause a feedback effect on the DO which will allow the prison to be closed for good.
Sam Mickel
86. Samadai
Leigh, loved your review and agree with what you said. I am so glad you are doing this and wish I had discovered the online fan group with you. I wish i could have been in that group of people you met with.
I would have loved the opportunity to spend time talking to people about the WoT.
You inspire my loyalty and and my Ji.

One of your biggest fans.


Sam
Zachary A
87. Zeal
In a somewhat non plot-related question:

Is that really the cover of the US edition? Really?

Because man is that hideous. Seriously, Tor, why do you keep giving Darrell Sweet your money?
James Jones
88. jamesedjones
84 leighdb
Substituting the euphemism of "vested interest" in lieu of "sellout" does not in fact change the basic nature of what you're alleging.
Sure it does. My CEO has a vested interest in the company I work for. But the CEO of AIG was a sellout. But let me apologize for what I said. It went to far, and could clearly be construed as insulting. I shouldn't have said it. I'm very sorry.
Wilson Grooms
89. avidreader
Does anyone know how long it will probably take for this book to come out in paperback? I really don't want to buy it in hardback since I have the rest of the series in paperback, but I'm dying to read it!! the people who borrowed it from the library before me had better read really fast!!!
Wilson Grooms
90. daggers
my favorite part of this book was when Egwene tells elaida she'd call her a darkfriend but the dark one would be too embarassed to have her. made me laugh for like 5 mins
Wilson Grooms
91. douglasm
67 jamesedjones

Mat went from a clever scoundrel to being a clueless buffoon. If you've read the other works by BS, you'll know Mat came directly from Alcatraz. His humor was no longer sharp; it was long and boring. In Alcatraz this is incredible, and very clever, because his rambling diversions are part of the humor. But BS could not pull off Mat.

Clueless? I'm not seeing it. Buffoon maybe, but he's always been a buffoon, just one who is also a military genius and ta'veren.

Aviendha came across as painfully dense to anyone who has read Feist's Riftwar saga. Her part should have been no more than one chapter that started with her hand in the bucket! The other shaming punishments could have been 1-2 paragraphs each, and seen from retrospective.

Introducing the problem and solving it a page or two later would have trivialized it. The fact that a similar kind of rite of passage was used in a small number of other stories does not automatically mean everyone will recognize it, and it is no surprise to me whatsoever that someone coming from a culture that emphasizes accepting punishments and shame for dishonor as much as the Aiel do would take a long time to pick up on this, especially when it is delivered by authority figures she respects greatly and has been training under for some time with absolutely no hint of the trial that was coming.

Rand should have been 3 chapters, MAX. Semi escapes and tortures him, which he escapes. He goes to Arad Domon, pisses off the Aiel, and finds Greandal, whom he balefires. He leaves Arad Domon, deals with some family drama, and finds he can cry while continuing his never-ending whining. Done.

I sincerely doubt that would have been enough to show just how far down he went before finally turning around, and showing that depth in full was necessary to give the recovery proper context. And there were a few other important things he did, like rescuing Rodel Ituralde, talking with Tuon, and learning about balefire killing Forsaken permanently and teaching it to the Asha'man.

After dealing with Egwene, which was a HUGE waste of Aes Sedai and soldiers (Gawyn) thinking and agonizing over doing nothing,
Uniting the White Tower is hardly "nothing", nor is the specific detail of managing it without an assault and getting the loyalist side to accept Egwene voluntarily.

this book should have been 100,000 words. And it still would have been one of the most boring and uneventful in the series. Bah!
Uneventful? Huh? Semirhage dead, Graendal dead, the White Tower united, Elaida made a damane, the Black Ajah exposed, Rand and Lews Therin integrating, Rand learning and accepting that hard != good, the Seanchan attacking the White Tower, Rand and Tuon meeting, Rand channeling the True Power... If that's "uneventful" I'm not sure I want to know what would qualify as "eventful" in your opinion. I could see "boring" if you are completely uninterested in the White Tower and Rand plot arcs but not "uneventful", and a rather large portion of the fan base finds at least one of those arcs very interesting.
Jason Deshaies
92. darxbane
I haven't read all the Mat chapters yet, but I though what I read so far was not that bad. He's finally getting his turn in the love makes you crazy wheel and he found out he is not only a lord but a PRINCE. You add that to his already stuck being a general when he hates fighting, and he now has accomplished the three things he most wanted to avoid. I can understand why the Mat fanboys/girls would be so upset (sorry JEJ), but he is much more realistic for finally showing a little strain, even if it is in the form of goofy whining (at least he isn't dark and brooding, or dark and brooding, like Rand and Perrin). I though that rant he had in his first POV was awesome, by the way. Also, IIRC, Talmanes does show his humor in the past, I can think of one scene where Mat is striking out hard against a barmaid.

While I'm at it, Aviendha's scenes were great. She had all the answers in her head, but she could not become a Wise One until she believed it herself, and her just figuring it out offscreen would have been cheap, in my opinion.

There, I have no vested interest in this story, and I love it. I won't call it the best book yet, because I am not considering it one book, but just the first volume of the last book.
Wilson Grooms
93. t0kengirl
I love this book.

Eventful, interesting and full of What The F*** just happened moments.

Verin is truly sneaky awesomeness incarnate, bind the woman to the wheel as a hero!
Philip Thomann
94. normalphil
Also, 20% Black Ajah membership? What the hell is wrong with those people/that institution? What does the ambient head-damage have to be to enduringly hide that?
Wilson Grooms
95. Texas Hovda
OK.. I finished last night and will re-read again tonight. Somewhat confused regarding LTT finally shutting up. How was that accomplished by simply destroying the terangreal / sa angreal? Perhaps the re-read will clear it up.
Leigh Butler
96. leighdb
jamesedjones @ 88:

Apology accepted.

avidreader @ 89:

Most WOT books are released in paperback a year after the hardcover release, so you have a rather long wait I'm afraid. Maybe you could get it from a library in the meantime?

normalphil @ 94:

I don't find it surprising. Power attracts corruption, and the White Tower has been the most powerful institution in Randland for thousands of years. It's only natural that they should attract a higher percentage of Darkfriends than the general population.

That said, I'm willing to bet that the percentage of Darkfriends in the *Black* Tower is going to make that 20% look positively piddly.
Pete Pratt
97. PeteP
On the 20% BA -- I would further add that it relates both to the WT structure and the DO's goals.

The WT is a flawed institution set up with unreasonable rankings and structures (Avi's shock at how the Wise Ones decide who is in charge, etc. was priceless -- shows how far she had gone from her Aiel roots), as was also discussed by Nyn and Daighan.

It has also drifted from a service group (Aes Sedai = servants of all) to a ruling one.

The WT encourages arrogance and selfishness, the very things the DO wants in his folks, per Verin.


Also, James I feel you with regards to Mat. Everything related to Mat could have appeared in a BS novel, just change the names.

I just really think Brandon may not understand Mat very well. I just wish he had left him out of this one completely, even though I would have complained about that too.
Wilson Grooms
98. kab1
I'd agree with Leigh, the BT looks like it will have way more then 20% darkfriends.

Hmmm, I thought the multiple letters that Verin had meant they were going to multiple people and I was a bit exited that we'd see more of Verin's sneakiness to come. But Leigh you may be right in that they were different letters to Mat and she picked one based on his reaction.

Also, I know the scene with Tam was shocking, but i thought the part where Rand just left Arad Domon after finding out the food had spoiled was the most shocked. I mean, he just left. period. I realize there's not much he could have done but still. wow.

I wonder when Rand and co will realize just what's going on with the Rand/Moridin link. Is the fact that only bad taveren incidents are now happening around Rand indicative of the link to Moridin's evil or the increased touch of the DO? The "cloud" of darkness around Rand seems to be due to his link with Moridin. I realize Rand talked himself (yes, I agree talked?!?) out of being so hard, but I gotta think that link with Moridin is still going to cause him to be quite dark. I did like how quickly Min's viewing of Dragonmount came to pass.
Wilson Grooms
99. winterking
Didn't care as much for Mat's chapters--Talmanes' sense of humor seemed new and unusual, Mat's style was off, and the zombies...not so much. Plus the bit about the long backstories for his allies--where did that come from?

Verin=Awesome. One of the most brilliant achievements of the forces of light, I think; getting a dedicated, intelligent, careful, cautious agent inside the Black Ajah was vital, but nobody had managed it. I'm not sure anyone besides Verin could have managed it.


My new personal theory about Rand using the True Power...that's how he's going to Seal the Bore. Lews Therin talks about how their mistake was using Saidin to actually touch the Dark One, that's what allowed his counterstroke. But if the only thing touching the Dark One is...himself, how can he taint anything?
DavidBills
100. DavidBills
Don't forget that channelers can be turned to the dark against their will.

On another note, did any rasfwr-j alumni notice that Rand turned into Novak after almost killing Min?
Jason Denzel
101. jwdenzel
Regarding Mat

I'm with you guys who think Mat sounded "off". I gave this feedback to Brandon after reading the book, but it was too late in the game for him to go back and make big changes like that. I obviously cannot speak for him, but I do know that he's very, very aware of our opinions on Mat, and I suspect that he'll make extra efforts for that character in Towers of Midnight. Cause let's face it, we pretty much know that book is going to be all Mat. Look at the title. (No, I don't have special insider knowledge on that. Just fan speculation)

Back to Mat in TGS. What threw me off was the first scene where we saw Mat. His joking was more akin to what we would expect from Mat in book 1, not the slight-more-sober version we know from CoT and KoD.

Over the course of his chapters, he sounded more like I would expect. But those first few scenes left a bad taste in my mouth.

That said, I didn't lose sleep over this. Mat's role is likely to be more significant in the next two books, and Brandon's going to be on the look-out for how he handles him. I think he'll be in good hands.
Nora Murphy
102. Lyubov
Maybe it's the I-just-finished-the-book high talking, but I really loved it.

The Egwene storyline was probably the most overtly awesome (I was positively giddy for the majority of her chapters, particularly the battle with the Seanchan), but the sections that had me glued to the edge of my metaphorical seat were those dealing with Rand. For the first time in a very long time, I felt complete, unadulterated sympathy for the guy. (Does it make me a bad person that I was not particularly disturbed by his balefiring of Graendal's compound? The deaths of her slaves, while regrettable, seem to me to be almost a mercy, considering that the level of Compulsion they were under made their future salvation next to impossible.) The cruelest aspect of the book, for me, was that even as Rand is fighting to not be placed in boxes by really every single person he knows, his entire existence is a prison. That's why the last chapter was absolutely necessary. While anticlimactic, until Rand figured out a way to conceive of his own life in terms that gave him some degree of freedom, he would never be able to accomplish anything.

And I'll add my voice complaining that Mat's scenes felt very off. (Plus the detour in Zombie-ville struck me as profoundly unnecessary.) The wonderful humor of RJ's Mat was never his one-liners, but rather his whole voice--the way he reacted to the people and events around him within his own head. This Mat seemed like he was auditioning for a role in a Joss Whedon show. And while I love Whedon as much as the next geek, that's just not Mat.
Jason Deshaies
103. darxbane
@101,
I guess I am in the minority about Mat in this case. His courtship of Tuon of the toughest battle he ever had, and, in marrying her, became a prince. If I were Talmanes, reserved or not, I'd be needling the World's Greatest Nobility/Marriage Hater to no end, now that he is both married and a lord (this doesn't eve take into consideration the fact that he married the leader of his enemies, or that she left after finally finishing the ceremony). It's funny what causes people to lose their mind, but his opening rant is only funny because he is so exasperated he doesn't know what to do with himself. Why is it so hard for us to believe events can make people act outside their normal character sometimes? It was a risky move for BS, but I think I see where he's coming from.
Gbed
104. Braig
While I can see everyone's point of Mat being "off",
for myself, I laughed out loud to every exchange.
To me, I read it kind of as Mat in total wonderment of his total change of fate.

Face it, he has come to realize all that he has tried to avoid throughout the story.

As far as the zombies, it was mentioned as a "snag in the pattern"
Maybe a foreshadowing of things to come?
Sam Mickel
105. Samadai
RE; Verin and the letters.

Don't forget that Verin didn't know if she was meeting Mat or Perrin so the letters could have been for either one.
Lily
106. Lily of the Valley
Mat disappointed me. I found his entire appearance slightly painful, which, considering I'm a Shameless Rabid Mat Fangirl, was hard to swallow. It was like expecting Nathan Fillion and getting Will Farrel. ):

[To be fair, though, he did have the only Laugh Out Loud moment for me, courtesy of, "Hello. Welcome to Hinderstap. We will murder you in the night and eat your bloody face if you stay past sunset. Try the pies."]

I hold out hope BS just hit a sharp learning curve with him, though, and he'll be back and better than ever in ToM. :D Until then, I cringe and reserve judgment.

Now. *smooths skirts* The rest of the book was FRAKKIN AWESOME. End. Of. Story.

[Although, am I the only one who suddenly switched Egwene for Neil Patrick Harris in my head when she said "We will be legendary!"?]

Seriously, this thing never slowed down. Talk about an emotional roller coaster! Egwene was awesome, Nynaeve was awesome [way to take some initiative!], Rand was scary and amazing, poor little Daigian D:, White Tower Battle of WIN, SneakySneaky Verin is all the Amazing and Awesome we've always suspected her to be and MORE, and...and.... *collapses with happy*

THIS is arguably in the Top Three for best WOT books in the series. Mr. Jordan, Mr. Sanderson, I tip my hat to you.
James Jones
107. jamesedjones
101 jwdenzel
What threw me off was the first scene where we saw Mat. His joking was more akin to what we would expect from Mat in book 1, not the slight-more-sober version we know from CoT and KoD.
So that leaves us with the question of how you would change it. I know Mat needs to sound more wry, but I honestly can't offer any constructive criticism. I know how it sounds wrong to me, but I'm unsure how to make it sound right. Did you make any suggestions to BS? Does anyone have any solid guidance on how Mat should sound; what changes BS could make?
Henry Loose
108. schrodinger
@Lily 106

*collapses with happy*
i've been trying to come up with a phrase to describe exactly how this book made me feel... thank you.
*collapses with happy*
Verin-awesome
Egwene-awesome
Rand-awesome
favorite scene: last chapter, Rand gets things together, watch out shadow, our boy just shook off everything you gave him (plus his own self inhibitions) and here comes the right hook.

Everything with Egwene was awesome, same with sneakysneaky Verin. My only qualm with Egwene is her insistence on "controlling Rand", however, going on what she had seen and heard, it probably seems logical to her. I'm sure that once she and Rand meet again, that attitude will change (as Rand has changed).

Towers of Midnight. ToM hopefully will stand for Tons of Mat. Moiraine's reunion with Rand will be something to look forward to, as she heads his list of women dead because of him.
Jason Denzel
109. jwdenzel
@jamesedjones 107

The key, IMO, is that in the earlier books, (and in TGS) Mat says witty thoughts outloud. In TGS he joked more freely than he did in the more recent novels. I think we would see a noticeable change if he keeps those witty comments in his thoughts while making a complimentary (conflicting?) comment outloud in his dialogue.

Again, while I'm sure he'd love all of our feedback, I think we just need to trust him and Team Jordan to do their job and be the professionals that they all are. They know this was an issue for what appears to be a large number fans now, and they have a lot of opportunities to make changes to the way they approach this character. Wham Bam.

@schrodinger 108... "ToM = Tons of Mat" lol!! Agreed.
Pete Pratt
110. PeteP
jwdenzel @ 101 -- Glad to hear that Brandon has been informed about the massive issue with Mat. It feels as though he punted this one, putting in some Mat just to do it and cribbing it from his other work.

Mat is a character with a lot more depth than anything Sanderson has ever created in his own work and very distant from Sanderson's personal existence.

I think RJ thought of Mat as a very close friend. Yes, Mat is the Trickster, the Son of Battles, the Gambler. He is clever and capable.

I really was bothered by the "saidered" line -- something Mat would never say (he would just the say the One Power.

Anyway, Brandon said in the interview on Dragonmount that Tuon was the hardest character he ever had to write because her mindset was so different. That may be superficially the most difficult, but Sanderson likes writing strong female characters, so this one is not that big of a stretch for him, really.

Writing Mat correctly, while superficially similar to a couple of BS's characters, is much more difficult in all reality. Hopefully he can slow down and get it right for ToM.
lin mei
111. twicemarked
I think people should not be so happy about the current state of Rand.

The DO is like a drug dealer who just gave away the first free sample of his drug to a kid. He could not care less he made a loss on this sale. He is confident that his products will hook Rand.

The TP is said to be much more addictive that the One Power. And people who can no longer channel the One Power (stilled or burned out) would be depressed and die soon. Imagine the addiction Rand will show in the next two books.

Rand may have to be linked with two women constantly in a circle to prevent him from going suicidal from this. Or perhaps he need the Crystal Throne to cure him of his addiction. So I am not so sure Rand has hit rock bottom yet.
Henry Loose
112. schrodinger
@Mat's (and to lesser extent Talmanes' differences)
I like to look for reasons in the plot that would allow for these differences (such as life changing events or extended absences).
Mat's marriage: life changing... he seems to be going through a "mid-life" crisis (post marriage, whatever), so he's likely to be more flippant, and revert to old habits.
Talmanes: extended absence, possibly gaining a sense of humor, or, he has always had it and, as Mat points out, is just smiling on the inside. (and finds Mats present situation so amusing that it actually is starting to show on the outside).

Also, I haven't had time to read all the posts, so I don't know if anyone else is thinking this, but come on! Graendal needs to be taken care of in a more personalized way (not balefired from afar, but up close). Here's my theory: Graendal realizes what
Rand is doing, or is just being cautious, but anyway, she compels the lord dude sent to her as a test to leave with info in his head that whomever lives in that house is loyal to Rand. A secondary layer of compulsion is then set on him to compel him to not be compelled (or she set the weave to go byebye after something happened, like the destruction of her compound). As soon as she compels him she goes to chill at Moridin's place in the Blight.
Dorothy Johnston
113. CloudMist
To me, the only part of Mat's arc that was off was the bit where he's rehearsing everyone's cover stories.

And the then-Tuon had her own awesomeness when she fought off Rand's taveren pull. But if both Mat and Rand are present the next time the Empress (MSLF) meets the Dragon, she won't stand a chance.
Joseph Blaidd
114. SteelBlaidd
So first impressions. I'm Just through Matt meeting Verin.

Wish that Avi and Min had had more time to connect but, I loved the insights into the Aiel mind set.

Rand's decent in to blackness is just what I expected, very mournful. His conversation with Min right before Simarhage's attack is something that was long overdue the timeing was indeed perfect to do the maximum damage. Cadsuane's goof is the same one every other person but Min and the Forsaken has made. They don't take the events of LTT's life into account when dealing with Rand.

I LIKED the Mat chapters. Hes obviously attempting to deal with his new marital status especialy the part where he gets all of the head aches and none of the benifits, I'd whine too. Regarding Talmenes's "change" remember this is something that Mat is learnning about him too.

The thing that I found most interesting was the way that the inhabitants of hinderstrap had addapted to the way the way the Lord of the GRAVE's influance has twisted reality around them.

I thought the elaborate "cover" stories was hillarious as it isobvious that he's trying to orginise his FIRST covert op with know idea how to do it. Combat stratagy and inteligence work are very different.
Wilson Grooms
115. SoneA
The thing i love most with this book is the scene very Egwene does some major asskicking. In my opinion it was the best scene in the entire book.

And wow, Verin is brave, i wonder if she knows that the dark one can bring people back from the grave.
Wilson Grooms
116. mikauk
Rand: I definitely cried during the Semirhage Sad Bracelets scene, and maybe screamed a little bit (my roommate already thinks I'm insane, it's cool), and while I was SUPER frustrated the whole time it was in a way that said "RAND YOU ARE SO STUPID AND YET SO BELIEVABLE!" Although, I completely missed the line where LTT went away; must reread last three chapters.

Egwene: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I must have tweeted ten thousand exclamation marks as I read this. I agree with Competency Porn as an excellent label for this. The part where Siuan and Gareth dragged her out of the Tower as she feebly protested was, for me, the exact amount of "AAAAAAARGH WHY WHY WHY" needed to balance the upcoming Purge of Awesome.

Perrin: bleh. I have never liked Perrin and I doubt I will, but sitting there angsting about wagons does not help. The ceremony with Faile et al definitely struck a nerve though.

Mat: I agree that he sounded odd, but I for one welcome some straight up humor in this series. It's no shame to shoot off a one-liner that makes the reader laugh. And the Hinderstrap-face-pies line was indeed pure awesome. Perhaps, for me, the most out-of-character moment was the phrase "saidared". Really?

Query: did anyone notice an abuse of italics in character dialogue? That was one of the things that jumped out at me.
Lily
117. Lily of the Valley
I noticed the italics, but I'm wondering if anyone else noticed the over abundance of "Well"s and "Why"s.

I'm trying not to nitpick. xD I'm profoundly happy that this book and the other two are here to wrap up this series. Brandon, if you're reading this, know we love you! We're just...adjusting. I think that is an apt word for. 83 Once we adjust, all will be well.
Wilson Grooms
118. stargazer
@108:
Moiraine's reunion with Rand will be something to look forward to, as she heads his list of women dead because of him.

I agree - but it's deeper than just that. In a sense (more true now that Rand and LTT have apparently integrated) the real name at the top of the list is Ilyena. And Rand's just had the insight that, as long as the Wheel keeps turning, she gets the chance to be reborn. She, and he, get the chance to do it again, and maybe better.

Well, that's true for every other name on his list, too. That's going to be Rand's real motivation to fight the DO now. Not just because it "has to be done", not just to save Min+Avi+Elayne, not just to keep Ilyena's soul spinning away out there somewhere, but to give another chance to every single woman on his list, to earn redemption for his sins in this life, and the chance to do it again better next time ages hence. Moiraine's coming back is going to be a big deal. But as long as the Wheel turns, they all get that second chance. (OK, except for the few balefired DFs. But I can't remember, has anyone other than Forsaken been BFed before Graendal's lair?)

@114: re "covert ops". OK, folks, here's the real debate. Military masterminds at work: Mat Cauthon versus Miles Vorkosigan. Who comes out on top? Or do they just both run in brilliant circles around each other's plots until their collective fanbases collapse squeeing in joy? I figure laser weapons and jumpships versus saidar/din and traveling is a fair game, and Mat is clearly picking up on the strategic implications of cannons quickly enough after all. I think it'd be a pretty even fight.
Rebecca Zmarzly
119. bowlwoman
leighdb @ 22

I definitely think the link with Moridin had something to do with it, but I don't think he got the TP *from* Moridin, per se. More like he got access to Moridin's access to it, if that makes sense.

Kinda like Rand piggybacking off of Moridin's wifi connection? :)
Lily
120. Lily of the Valley
I just got this. Mat literally married Lady Luck. Get it? Aha. Ha ha. Ha. *snortgiggle* Sorry. Couldn't resist. xD
Wilson Grooms
121. wawwen
I liked the book, but felt some of the dialogue was off throughout the entire book, Mat was completely off, and some revelations were just so sudden as to just feel very deus ex machina.

To be fair, I thought Dashiva = Osan'gar was way out there the first time I read it, but after more thought and another read through I didn't feel that way. I think Sheriam = black will end up the same way, but "Hi I'm Verin, your dress is green! I'm black ajah!" reveal isn't sitting well for me.

I had a real problem with Mat's new voice, I though he was too much in the vein of Sandersons' characters from other books (mercenaries from Warbreaker in particular), and the "saidar-ed" comment was way out of left field. Mat is my favorite character, and with how well Sanderson handled this I'm sure it will only get better.

I find it really odd that he found Tuon hard to write, because I think he did an excellent job if all the TGS Tuon POV are Sanderson's work and not Jordans. If he can get that far into a character he doesn't understand and make it work, then I'm sure he can get into Mat and make it work as well.

I was prepared for a awful sequence of novels to end WOT, similar to the KJ Anderson/Brian Herbert finish to Dune, but Sanderson's approach is so far above that as to make the non-Frank Herbert ending to the Dune cycle look like bad fanfiction next to a real work of art.

Speaking of Tuon, I can't read her new name (Fortuona) without instantly thinking about Carl Orff. It's really bothering me. :(
Wilson Grooms
122. QuantumEve
Wow! TGS was awesome! I wasn't sure what to expect, but I loved reading it.

My favorite line in the book, "I'd name you Darkfriend as well, but I suspect the Dark One would perhaps be embarrassed to associate with you." The picture immediately came to mind of one of the Sitters at the table going, "Oh no she di'nt!" The White Tower chapters were the best part of the book and Egwene was MAGNIFICENT!

My second favorite line, "By the way, that dress you're wearing is green." Oh my, Verin is turned out to be just as dastardly clever and awesome as I hoped she would be. I'm sad she's dead, but happy with the wayher storyline ended. I think she's a case of going back to the Light in her final moments (like what's his name in TGH) so that the Dark One can't have access to her soul. At least, that's what I hope.

The only part of the book I actually teared up for was Nynaeve's conversation with Rand when he says that he knows that becoming so hard will destroy him. It just seemed so, so hopeless and set up the things he *almost* does later in the book nicely. I was very happy that he finally found himself at the end, although his realization on why he needs to live rang a little hollow, especially contrasted with the immensity of what he was actually doing (holding so much Power) at the time.

I agree with #98 kabl - the most shocking scene to me was when he ran away from a whole city bound to starve. It seemed much, much more horrifying than what he did to Graendal's palace.

I also agree with all the comments that Mat was "off." He just didn't seem to act like I expected Mat would in his scenes, even given his new status as a married man. I think BS wrote him in because people would be so disappointed if he wasn't there at all, but it just didn't seem natural.

I loved getting so many points of view in this book. I liked Avi's story line and it was refreshing to get her POV instead of just seeing her through Elayne's eyes for the last books. I hope we get a lot more of her when she returns from Rhuidean. I'd love to see her come to Rand as a full-fledged, confident Wise One and woman.

Loved Nynaeve in this book, too. I think she's come into her own too, and really acted like Moraine in a lot of ways...taking initiative and being more understanding with Rand. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not chomping to see Mor come back in the next book! I'm afraid that Min's viewing of Nyn is NOT a good sign for Lan's chances of surviving TG. :(

All in all, Brandon Sanderson did great work and I thank him for taking up the WoT mantle so all of us fans get to find out the end of this story.

So, how long until the next book's out?
Wilson Grooms
123. QuantumEve
Oh, and #106 Lily of the Valley - no, you were the only when picturing NPH when Egwene said that. Too funny.
Brandon D
124. Ishmayl
Book was absolutely great. Started reading at 2:00 PM yesterday afternoon, read straight until after midnight, then started again at 3:00 PM today and just put it down. I have no problem fully admitting that I dedicated two days of my life to reading a fantasy novel.

I am so pleased that one of my theories of a long time came to pass - that Tam would be instrumental in helping Rand recover. I had a lot of different ideas on how that would play out, all the way down to (yes) Rand killing Tam, and then realizing what he'd done, and I'm so happy it didn't go that far.

Also, very disappointed that we saw in Rand's head his viewing of Perrin and Galad talking, and then we got the "afterwards" of Nynaeve bringing Tam back of course, but we never got to experience that. Hopefully, there will be just a schmidgin of time-going-backwards-ness in the next book to cover thoroughly what Mat and Perrin have been up to, with none of the "Three Months Later..." BS.

I love that people are remembering Moraine so fondly, even Nynaeve in her own way. Definitely leads to some interesting reunion situations happening in the (hopefully) near future.

And man, I had some moments in the book. Of course, Verin's Awesome Moment of Awesomeness was way up there, but the SECOND SCENE (yes, it deserves ALL CAPS) with Egwene and Elaida (during the dinner) was too good. I don't remember the exact line, but the "I would name you a Darkfriend myself, but I don't think the Dark One would claim you" (or something like that) was pretty fantastic.

Cannot wait for the next book.
Wilson Grooms
125. TedB
I just finished TGS, and wow....I definitely loved it, I haven't been this excited after finishing a book in years.

There was somewhat of a different style here compared to some of the recent books that I definitely appreciated: It felt..."tighter". I felt that I was on a raging river flowing towards a destination, not floating on the tide wondering if I'm getting closer to shore or farther. There was less....meandering and plenty of action, and we still have two books to go.

I think this tighter style is linked both to (1) the series impending end and the natural tying off of storylines, and (2) BS's style (being a fan of his other works, this flowed perfectly for me).

I had found myself a little lost at times in the past, as sometimes scenes would drag on a little too long and it felt like we were treading water (beautiful, vibrantly described water, in gorgeous weather, but treading all the same).

TGS was stylistically different in some ways than what has come before, but still was a great read and never pulled me out of the WoT universe. Some small things were different, but I don't want an RJ clone trying to write like him. I want another talented artist taking the structure and notes and bringing an end to a 20+ year story as best he knows how. Brandon has done so with gusto! If only the book tour stopped at more destinations, I would love to extend my gratitude in person.

Ideally, RJ would have been able to finish his epic himself, but the Pattern weaves as it wills. I have no fears about future with BS at the helm, I just wish I could dive into the next two books immediately. Kudos for Harriet, Brandon, Team Jordan, and TOR for making all this happen.
Jennifer McBride
126. vegetathalas
Overall, I thought the book was incredibly awesome. I finished it at 6 a.m. this morning and woke up 8 hours later still wearing happy.

That said, I was disappointed with Mat's voice...and Semirhage's eating off the floor...to avoid more humiliation??? Seriously? Too easy. But her revenge with the male a'dam was awesome, as was the True Force thing. Likewise, Masema's death was strangely easy for all the build-up over the past few books, as was Graendal's and the character lost some of her subtlety. I always thought she was incredibly opulent because, like Verin or Perrin marching under the Manetheran banner, she was hiding her true subtle nature. Yet she didn't seem to have much. I was annoyed we never got any info on Rand's sword, it seemed a cheap trick to build suspense since Rand knows what it is, so why is he being all mysterious even in his own head. And yes, as soon as I saw that first Aveindha scene I started shouting "Pug! Pug! Just say your place is not with them!" And wouldn't all the apprentices notice that the Wise Ones, right before they are raised Wise Ones, have to go through a period of Dat'sang? But since everything's been done before, it's really impossible to be new. That's why I'm always surprised by revelations where I don't guess the right answer. I always thought that if Sheriam was black ajah, she'd handle the ferrets thing with Egwene better AND would have managed to get herself promoted to Amyrilin in the first place. And I was mildly distressed by the idea that the Ajah heads controlled not only the election of their own sitters, but the ones in the rebel camp as well--since there wasn't a hall among the rebels when they left, why would the Ajah heads/sitters who left know to raise up young/unusual sisters? Will Romanda be in the hall of the White Tower? And how did they know Halima was a Forsaken and not just a man weaving a Saidin illusion around herself all the time to confuse everybody? And the name Fortuona is yick, but heck, maybe all Empresses in Seanchan pick names that invite the gods of irony to slaughter them. And where did Berelin go? Did she just pack up and say, "you win Faile, I'm off to cavort with Galad?"

But minor nitpicks compared with a lot of awesome. Especially Egwene's awesome. And I laughed when I read saidar-ed. Okay, out of character, maybe, but still a hilarious word. And Gareth and Suane's sweetness almost made me cry. They're my favorite couple next to Nynaeve and Lan.

I'm going to have to disagree with you Leah on Graendel's death. Though it was too quick for me--she was my favorite Forsaken and she gets like two minutes of screen time before I have to say goodbye?--but at this point, Rand's going to have to start mowing the Chosen down like sheep at a butcher's--there's still six left to go through in two more books. Samael had no body, after all.

What I'm wondering is: why did the Black Ajah have the flaw in the black ajah oath in the first place? Why not just swear not to reveal any black ajah secrets, period? It's like they meant the hole deliberately to be there. I can't imagine Aes Sedai with their penchant for twisting words wouldn't deliberate on EVERY SINGLE word and cut out anything that didn't fit. Maybe they wanted to be able to torture secrets out of their own members by beating them to the hour of their own death or something. Anyway, Verin rocks.

Is Mesaana still in the Tower? I'm dying to find out. And are their more Seanchan assassins hanging around in the Tower? What will the Seanchan do with traveling?
Wilson Grooms
127. douglasm
121 wawwen

Sheriam has been suspected of being black for a considerable while by the fans more into analyzing the series. Those same fans have also known that something was up with Verin since The Great Hunt, with quite a few more hints of it popping up since, and her being black was one of the favored theories.

Do a google search for Wheel of Time FAQ if you want to see all the evidence plus a detailed analysis of it.
William Fettes
128. Wolfmage
leighdb @ 54

”I didn't bring it up in the review, but I disagree with you about Mat, more or less. I got used to the new Mat as his POVs went on, but it was definitely not the same character voice in my opinion. And that first analogy was actively painful.”

Fair enough. When I do a second read-through, and I’m not so anxious to return to other plot threads, I will no doubt pick up on these shortcoming more readily as Mat’s my favourite character. Reading some of the other commentators, such as Zeal @ 62, I think I can see how BS’s Mat voice probably fails to deliver the same edge and wit, but at this stage I wasn’t too put off by it because his story arc was so peripheral. Some bits were better than others too.

jamesedjones @ 67

“Aviendha came across as painfully dense to anyone who has read Feist's Riftwar saga. Her part should have been no more than one chapter that started with her hand in the bucket! The other shaming punishments could have been 1-2 paragraphs each, and seen from retrospective.”

I don’t see how you can say she was dense. The whole point of these sections is not Aviendha’s uncertainty, it’s the truth and wisdom she demonstrates with her responses to Amy and co about Rand’s dealings with the Chiefs and other issues. She is impressive in this and very far from the prickly and more one-dimensional spear sister she used to be.

Eithin @ 71

“Semirhage: she breaks to one session of mild humiliation, and can't bear to miss a meal? Oh, dear.”

Yeah, I agree it was kinda stupid. I would have preferred an evolution of Sorilea's first remark which broke her down intellectually.

“The White Tower BA-hunters: they used to rock, but here they just got unceremoniously pushed into the sidelines for fear of stealing some of Egwene's glory. She really does have enough of her own that she shouldn't have any fear of sharing.”

Ah, but this is a familiar pattern for her character; Egwene’s ascendancy has often been a zero-sum loss for others. Certainly it happened with Nynaeve and in some ways Siuan too, though at least she is a willing adviser. I really did love Egwene in this book, but I agree with you that they could have dialled back some of the elements which made her singularly responsible for everything and everyone gushing about how amazing she is without taking away from her crowning moments of awesome.

kab1 @ 77

“On Cads herself, I would agree with Jason that I think she's well written for the most part, but I disliked the scene with Rand when he banishes her. I don't think this was true to the unflappable character we've seen thus far.”

I felt the opposite. I think it gave Cadsuane some added realism, correcting a somewhat unrealistic outward constancy, and emphasising the seriousness of the situation. It’s all very well to have tremendous carriage, dignity and cunning pragmatism, drawing on a wealth of experience with taking and gentling male channellers. But all her past projects are as nothing compared to Rand and the Last Battle. Whatever that toothless wilder taught her about the long game, she was still entirely too used to being cock of the walk, dealing with other infantile and petty Aes Sedai, and seeing men with a Far Madding matriarch’s blind spots. So many people talk up her experience with male channellers, but Rand is nothing like the untrained middling men she would be used to dealing with. Being very wise and pragmatic doesn’t mean you never lose your equilibrium anyway; look at Amys and Sorilea – it’s not like they always have a ready answer to every question or never feel exasperated. They've been balked by Rand many a time and she couldn't just get away with slapping manners into him every time just because Min had a viewing. It’s unrealistic. Previously, we only witnessed currents of uncertainty buried within Cadsuane’s thoughts which betrayed her outward calm, but with Rand’s transformation she was wise enough to realise the bravado approach would no longer work and she was in real danger.
Sam Kelly
129. Eithin
Vegetathalas: the mysterious sword is presumably LTT's original one. If as the text seems to suggest it was dug up from under the male Choedan Kal, then it's from the right era, and nobody else would use the Dragon imagery. I assume it's going to be relevant, since it turns up just when Rand is explicitly rejecting swords in favour of more useful methods.

Ishmayl: Hopefully, there will be just a schmidgin of time-going-backwards-ness in the next book to cover thoroughly what Mat and Perrin have been up to, with none of the "Three Months Later..." BS.

Oh, please no! We find out at the end of TGS that Things Have Been Happening with Perrin, and that none of them - with the exception of Morgase's reveal - were interesting enough for Tam to tell Rand about. I like long books as much as anyone, and more than most, but I want the next book to start off going forwards, rather than going back to catch up and wait for everyone to get to the same stage in the plot. Sanderson's got a good pace going, and he's not going to slow it down with another gratuitous half-dozen chapters of Faile and Berelain being idots.

Wolfmage: The thing about Aviendha is that she's really smart and capable, but the abusive hierarchy she's lived in for her entire life has made her understandably slow to get with the program. When they change the rules on her without telling her, no wonder she's confused.
Wilson Grooms
130. wawwen
@127 douglasm

I said the reveal did not sit well with me, not the fact that she was black ajah did not sit well with me. I know I am not a regular poster but I am heavily familiar with all the theories in the WOT FAQ since pre-LOC release and the rasfwr-j discussion that went with it to the most current update.

I appreciate your sentiment to point me to the FAQ (which is something I have done to others) but unfortunately I am not a clueless new poster, and far from someone who is not interested in analyzing the series. I prefer to not do it in the open and do not wish to apologize for not having the "net cred" for it.

That being said, I did not like the abruptness of the reveal and even though I read the book start to finish in about seven hours it was one of the things that stuck at me instead of feeling organic.
Leigh Butler
131. leighdb
Lily @ 120:

Oh wow, I never even twigged to that. That's... kind of awesome. Heh.
Claire Edwards
132. ClaireBelle
Honestly I'm kind of surprised at all the hating going on... I thought the book was amazing, I read it from cover to cover in six hours - that's how damn awesome it was!!

I didn't really notice any changes in voice, although I'm willing to accept that it may be something that irks me more on re-reading. I found Mat's story arc to be blessed relief, I honestly thought he was hilarious but in a Mat way and the book really needed that kind of levity! Rand's story was so so dark, I had to stop reading a few times because it was such a painful story. And whilst I loved Egwene's plotline that was also pretty serious stuff, MoA but damn serious. Hence the fact that I am majorly grateful for the Mat storylines - I'm assuming his job is going to get a lot more difficult in ToM...
I also didn't mind the zombies either - I saw them as very freaky DO stuff not pop culture references.

Goodness how am I going to wait a year for the next one?!
Thomas Keith
133. insectoid
Well, it took me almost 20 hours (not straight!), but I'm finally finished. (It actually felt longer than that; can't imagine why!) I have my own one-word review, before I read this thread:

Wow.

More later.
Wilson Grooms
134. Dakota1
@67

Thanks for the comment, negative is always popular. I've read the series it has it's faults but is meant to be fun. You're comments are mean spirited and well, "unimportant". It's easier to tear down then be free thinking. Enjoy or don't it's your choice. Don't feel that you speak for a majority (or imply) that you're opinion is important.

dennison
Wilson Grooms
135. Planeswalker
Yes please, tone down a bit on the Mat-is-off issue... He is off, I admit because I know... I'm a Mat fan... But really now, it's ok! He didn't do much in TGS anyway. Brandon's adjusting too, like we all do. Besides, I'm on the 'Mat-will-be-funny-smart-ass' bandwagon in the next book.

Brandon, if you hear me man. TGS is AWESOME!!! Can't wait for next year! Next year, ok? =)
Wilson Grooms
136. thomas2222
Just finished - Overall I couldn't put the book down. I'm satisfied with Rand's and Egwene's arcs and general character, although I could tell that nearly all of their POV's were written by Brandon (in fact, I'm not sure what in the book actually was written by RJ, most of it felt like BS to me). That being said, Mat - who has been my favorite character since book 3 - was terrible. I get that Brandon chose to write in his own voice and I respect that, but the Mat in this book was not true to the character we have seen in the second half of the series. Reading his parts was painful, especially the parts with contemporary humor - i.e. "do the math". But worse than that, he just seemed incompetent. Everyone with him seemed incompetent. Vanin? bad. Talmanes? bad. Thom? not as bad as the rest actually. What Mat went through in KoD is no excuse for his "behavior" in TGS. It just wasn't him...despite all of that, I'm thankful I will have the opportunity to find out what happens to Mat and everyone else in this series. Compared to never knowing, I can live with his character being defiled, even if it is painful...
Jennifer McBride
137. vegetathalas
@ 129 -- I don't know. Rand recognizes the sword from his own memories. How would he, himself, remember LTT's sword? But I did read it at a breakneck pace so its quite possible I missed something. I didn't notice the implication that the sword was being dug up from the pit around the Choeden Kal. From what I remember, it could have been dug up out of a farmer's yard in a twist of Ta'veren chance.

We're negative because we love. Overall, from what I've seen on the web, the reaction to the book is positive. For fans used to pouring over the text looking for clues, its hard not to be slightly nitpicky.
Wilson Grooms
138. June Faramore
This book reeked of awesome staring at me in the front of the bookstore, and it did not disappoint. Hurray for no more annoying Egwene. Hurray for the end of the neverending subplot, though if the bit of Perrin we saw is any indication, more annoying dicking around from him may be in our future. I can hope not I guess, since he doesn't have a lot of time left. I agree with those that say Mat was necessarily different in this book. His is my favorite, and I still enjoyed him. I liked Talmanes as straight man. I also see the zombie town as important in indicating just how badly the pattern is falling apart. It worked for me. As did saidared. Mat is always intentionally, overly cheeky with Aes Sedai.

I am too burned out from 12 hours of reading and the netbook's dying, so ta ta for now.

P.S. Verin is now my favorite character.
Rob Munnelly
139. RobMRobM
I just finished as well. I liked it. I'd say a top 5 or 6 book but not up with the classics. The Egwene arc was one of top two or three in the entire series, which goes a long way. Here's my wall o text with quick thoughts.

- Loved the Eg arc, which has been strong and consistent since LoC. Getting around the forkroot by linking and then grabbing the 'greal was really well done. Kicking the butts of both sets of AS after her second raising was also well done - they deserved. And I totally called Silviana as Keeper. But who is the Seanchan that will save her -and why will she need to be saved; and how will Gawyn either cause her execution and save her. I thought that would occur during Tower saving process. What's next? Loved and somewhat shocked by the abrupt executions of the BA.

- Have to agree that Elaida as even more of a Snidely Whiplash cartoon villain didn't do much for me. A bit more subtlety would have added drama but I was still all squee when Eg took her down. And I totally called her getting caught by Seanchan.

- Thank God Gawyn is heading in the right direction and I'm actually happy he only got part of the way back into good graces. All poodles and kisses with Eg would have been too much. Big headdesk how he left Younglings with no explanation. Pfaugh. Also, why doesn't he travel to see his sister to check in and catch up. Elayne will let him come back to get Eg?

- Glad for the payoff with Brynne and Siuan. The sexual tension was killing me.

- The Mat arc was definitely off, in tone and in plot (the zombie village was a fail as was the script for the next one). BS needs to work on it big time for next book. Close to a token appearance so didn't matter in grand scheme. Totally called he needed to go to Camelyn but surprised no POV there in this book. Aludra - who are they going to use the Dragons on? Satan??????

- Perrin's arc wasn't so hot either, what there was of it. Character development was fine but I just didn't like the plot, almost to point of getting a touch head-desky of a feeling. Faile killing Masema in Pro was a pleasant surprise but I couldn't figure out who served as her troops and how she could be sure they wouldn't talk to Perrin. Any ideas? I do agree Faile and company in the woods was interesting.

- Can't believe they didn't do the Perrin-Galad meeting on screen yet. Arrgh. I'm still betting that Tam is the one who recognizes Morgase. But Tam in Tear casts doubt on my Tam-Morgase twu wuv theory. So, who else can Tam cozy up to, as I am convinced he'll be married and happy with someone by series end? Leane (god, I hope so)? Seluccia? Cadsuane (hope not).

- Tuon was definitely off as well, especially at the beginning (about how could he possibly be a farmer - but she knew from Mat and the Band that he was a country boy too). Yes, I got the Lady Luck joke with her name. Love Seluccia as truth teller. Props to Linda at Thirteenth for calling that she'd have a name tied to luck. Fortuna started getting closer to her usual awesomeness (she's my favorite character in the entire series) at end. Interesting that we're teeing up TPOD II where Rand is convinced he's lost battle with Seanchan and, in turn, Seanchan will come back from TV feeling they've lost as well. We're going to get the cool scene in the next book: Fortuna - I will join with you if you let me husband, the Prince of the Ravens, command the joint armies - and you'll have to find him and bring him to me. Rand - OK, where can I find him. Fortuna - check the wireless connection in your brain and tell me.

- Not enough Tylee. She'll be very important in getting Fortuna to reach out to Rand somehow. Wouldnt it be funny if they have to use Elaida as the travelling messenger to make a peace offering to Rand? Actually, no.

- I liked the Avi stuff even though I saw it for miles away. Hated that she was gone second half of book. Guess she had to get away, as her lovin the Dragon will be a big part of how he gets back to being human later.

- huge oh ohs when Pevara and Reds and Myrelle and company both aren't coming back from Black Tower. Enter Logain to save the day in next book. (By the way, where was he all book???) Bet all the BAs in the WT will be at BT by sundown.

- Loved the Verin arc (even though her time with Mat was forced). The Egwene scene rocked. Absolutely awesome and perfect.

- The Rand arc had interesting points but didn't resonate with me as much as Eg's did. Loved the Min scene and I thought she was totally dead. I actually liked the Graendel BF'ing. Made sense to me. Hated the treatment of Lan and thought it was unrealistic and overkill. Virtually a father figure to him - dismissal that easily was a fail. I was shocked by the Tam scene - more realistic due to his anger at Cadsuane. Loved the walking around scene in Ebou Dar and his epiphany on top of Dragonmount, but still can't believe he destroyed the CK. And I can't believe he said LTT wasn't real. I DON'T BUY IT. And - did the sword belong to Turak at Falme? Sounds like it. Was it LTT's sword from way back when? I'm unclear.

- Very much enjoyed Nyn.

- Liked some of the Cad scenes but others were headdesk time. Great move getting Tam but then trying to manipulate the conversation??????? Where's the bubble wrap for my head.

- hard to believe it, but I missed Elayne. And where the heck is Talann from the Sea Folk. I thought they'd show up at Rebel camp. Logain? Demandred??????

Good job Brandon, good job Leigh. Onward and upward to the Towers.

Rob
Wilson Grooms
140. Ford75
@124 Ishmayl
My reading of TGS was almost identical to yours (2:00pm to 12:00 yesterday, 2:00pm to 7:00 tonight - LOL)

I found the book extremely satisfying. Loved the Verin reveal. Loved Egwene's entire arc. Holy Shit at the Semirhage/Rand/TP scene. Enjoy your new life Suffa!

My only complaints (well, complaints is maybe too strong a word, irritants maybe?, even milder than that) I also felt Mat was a little off. The quick deaths of Graendal and Semirhage (particularily Graendel, as I think she's my favorite Chosen. And Semi only because I wanted more interaction with her and Cadsuane's people).

BS did a great job overall.
Wilson Grooms
141. Confutus
Does anybody get else get the feeling that Semi was set up by the DO? She wouldn't have died if Rand hadn't used the TP on her, but she was following the DO's orders when she collared him, and it was certainly no accident that the TP was available for him to use, in light of what effect that one dose was having on him.
Elaida..next best thing to DSIAF, but it wasn't entirely her fault. Padan Fain had had a go at her, which would account for some of the transformation from merely cold and hard to incompetent megalomaniac.
Marina Brindley
142. WhereWomenGlow
Rob @ 139

"Tam in Tear casts doubt on my Tam-Morgase twu wuv theory."

There's a line in the Tam/Rand discussion in The One He Lost that made me think of you and your favourite love hope :-)

" "Kings don't whine, they deliberate." He seemed to be quoting someone, though Rand had no idea who. Oddly, Tam gave a brief chuckle."

Hmmmmmm.. Who might Tam have been chatting to that would make a statement like that? That he would be chuckling about? I took that as a hint that Tam and Morgase have been getting to know each other, discussing Rand. Of course, there are LOTS of other people he could have had that quote from, and just because he quotes and chuckles doesn't mean there's an impending wedding, but still... Morgase seems the obvious choice to me, and it just seemed like a strange thing to specifically note unless there was something more behind it. It could just be wishful thinking, or over-thinking, on my part - I do also very much want some twu wuv for Tam - but I'm going with my theory that it's a Tam/Morgase hint :-)
Rob Trotter
143. shadar
stargazer@118

Liah. Rand BFed her in Shadar Logoth (aCoS Chapter 41).
Zachary A
144. Zeal
WhereWomenGlow @ 142

Personally, I'm not seeing Morgase as being the obvious choice for where Tam picked up that quote from. To me it seems more likely that it's something he picked up while serving the King of Illian in the Companions.
gaylord dean
145. DeadlyArgon
Rob @139

I mostly agree with all your points except for the sword being Turak's. Rand's sword now, although power-wrought, has no herons on it, as would a blademaster's. I seem to recall from TGH that just before they fought, Turak said something like "Now let's see how it is like to earn a heron-marked blade this side of the ocean."(or something like that, i don't have my book with me) Then Rand, upon seeing that Turak's sword bore heron marks as well, actually panicked in his mind. In TGS Min specifically noted that the sword has no herons on it. So that pretty much makes it impossible for the sword to be Turak's. I've been thinking about it also but there are no clear clues to be had. The sword could perhaps belong to one of the previous False Dragons like Guaire Amalasan or Raolin Darksbane, both of whom are among the strongest. Maybe Rand read about it while he was researching about the Prophecies and everything about the Dragon. I could totally get it if one of those False Dragons, and remember, they believe that they are the Dragon Reborn, managed to acquire a power-wrought sword then have the scabbard personalized by engraving dragons on it. any takers on this theory? pretty far-fetched but, hey, this is jut a theory. I'm pretty sure you guys would allow me that. ;P

One other thing that occured to me lately regarding the sword and the three becoming one, we all seem to have forgotten or put aside the fact that Rand, Mat and Perrin are connected. Maybe it's got something to do with them. After all, the shadow's first plan was to "cut down one leg of the tripod and it will topple". I don't know how they could be one, maybe in action, but i wouldn't be surprised if that part of the prophecy is actually about the Rand the Dragon Reborn, Mat the Horn-sounder and Perrin the banner-wolfman fighting side by side in TG. (I got the bannerman part from TGH, when Hawking addressed Perrin as bannerman. :D) But i still think that my first theory (the one about saidin,saidar and TP being used to seal the bore again) is entirely plausible.
Zachary A
146. Zeal
gaylord827 @ 145

I've heard some speculation on other forums I've poked my head into that the sword might be Justice, Hawkwing's sword. LTT wouldn't remember it because he was well before Hawkwing's time but Rand would remember it due to Falme.

It seems like a decent theory to me, but I'm curious why Hawkwing would have a sword shaped like that. Ultimately, however, I think I'm just going to sit on the fence and adopt the position that we haven't been given enough information to go by just yet.

I think I'm going to adopt a similar stance with the Callandor-3 become 1 prophecy too. However, just to throw speculation out there, my first impression on reading that line was that Rand, LTT and Moridin would merge at some point. However, considering the ending and Rand's belief that LTT was never anybody but himself, it seems somewhat less plausible. However, I do like your theories.
gaylord dean
147. DeadlyArgon
zeal @ 146
The Justice theory is good except for the fact that Artur Hawking himself despises anybody who can channel, ergo his siege on TV. I just can't see him having his sword depicting dragons when it [a dragon]is popularly linked to LTT, the Dragon, a man who can channel.
Sean Banawnie
148. Seanie
AAAAAAHHHHHHHH.
Just finished .
Awesome.

Egwene was great in KOD.
But just got awesome.
Cool she told off nitwit{suddenly swordmaster Gawyn}


Rand - yikes.
two more books to get it together.

spanking--I almost dropped my book--and thought , "What is Leigh gonna say?"
and ROFLMAO-ed
well-bedtime and I am bleary-eyed.
William Fettes
149. Wolfmage
RobMRobM @ 139

Thanks for posting your impressions. I agreed with most of your positives, and I thought most of your criticisms were fair.

“Have to agree that Elaida as even more of a Snidely Whiplash cartoon villain didn't do much for me. A bit more subtlety would have added drama but I was still all squee when Eg took her down.”

Quite true. I keep going back and forth on whether her crazy is adequately explained by the SL dagger or whether they just went too far building her up in preparation for the pay-off and validating Egwene. Either way, the book errs on the side of cartoon villainy, but arguably it was already straying into cartoon territory in KoD and before and I also thought some of the adoration / supplication to Egwene was cartoonish at times too - albeit awesome all the same.

“All poodles and kisses with Eg would have been too much.”

Yep. It would have seriously tainted Egwene’s arc for me if they did that. As it is, the road block focuses solely on the rescue attempt and his inability to see her as Amyrlin, which only really goes part-way to acquit against his overall idiocy in the series. But it was a lot better than the kissy-kissy Rand killed my mother, I killed Hammar and I’m fighting for Elaida status quo.

“Perrin's arc wasn't so hot either, what there was of it.”

I was completely disinterested in Perrin’s arc. I think it will remain that way until we get to see the Galad-Morgase reunion on-screen or something happens with wolves and darkhounds. Masema's death was cool, I suppose, but I could care less about Faile or anyone else except Balwer in Perrin's entourage. Tam's comment that he thought Perrin was over lordly-leadership aversion reflected me being over Perrin in general. And wagon wheels? Seriously?

“Tuon was definitely off as well, especially at the beginning (about how could he possibly be a farmer - but she knew from Mat and the Band that he was a country boy too)”

I didn’t think Tuon was off at all. I thought she was one of Brandon's best efforts.

I thought that was a mistake at first too, but Tuon only knew Mat grew up with Rand (Chapter 25 & 26 KoD). She didn’t know they grew up in a village. That was what Mat tells Aludra.
Wilson Grooms
150. David DeLaney
The sword? Him recognizing it from his own memories means it's not LTT's sword, period. And no, it wouldn't be Turak's, Turak didn't decorate his sword like that. He DID see it at Falme though... in the _sky_; it's got to be Artur Pendraeg's sword, to match all the hints he's giving about it (Invincible, if I remember right?).

--Dave
Zachary A
151. Zeal
gaylord827 @ 147

Good point. However, Rand does think at one point that the only dragon he'd ever heard of was The Dragon. It's possible that the association between the dragon (creature) and the Dragon (person) was as obscure in Hawkwing's time as it was in Rand's before the dragon banner was taken out of the Eye and Rand got the dragons on his arms. It's possible the markings on the sword were ta'veren coincidence. Hawkwing was a ta'veren too, afterall.

However, even if that aspect were completely wrong there's another possible factor. Hawkwing didn't always hate Aes Sedai. He grew to hate them after being manipulated by Ishamael and that Red Amyrlin whose name I will never remember. Now, he hated Aes Sedai to the degree that he refused to send for one to save his life. But would he hate them enough to throw away a power wrought sword? My money would be on no. Firstly, because it's one thing to use an object of the power and another to be touched by it. Secondly, it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing a soldier would ever throw away.

Although, I think I'm being presumptuous here. Is it ever actually mentioned that the sword is power wrought?
gaylord dean
152. DeadlyArgon
Zeal@151

I have to admit, your arguments got me thinking twice (specially the one about them being ta'veren). =) Glad to be having this discussion with someone like you. However, i lean on the side that Hawking, on accounts of being a royalty, is knowledgeable of LTT and the dragons.

And although i agree with you that nobody, not even Hawking himself, would have thrown a power-wrought sword, it is entirely possible to have the scabbard changed. Just like what Rand did with Laman's.

I don't think the Justice has ever been mentioned as power-wrought but it is entirely possible, again on reasons that he is High King.

What if, in all incredulity, the sword did indeed turn out to be Justice picked up by Raolin/Yulan/Guaire? LOL nah...too far-fetched, i think...
Aidan Young
153. aidanyoung1102
I LOVED it.

The whole weight of the series has shifted towards the Last Battle. I can't believe we have to wait another year.

I had Verin pegged exactly. But no one else I talked to agreed with me. She was AWESOME.

Honestly, this book had me SCARED at times. I have never felt that before in the WOT. It was great.

Brandon's writing style felt so appropriate for the direction that the series is moving. He captures a darkness that is more raw that Jordan's style and also started to unify characters in a very believable and emotional way for me.

Matt and Perrin were both pretty lame, though. But, they were obviously just getting set up for their next moves. Matt's arc should prove to be awesome. I wonder what Perrin is going to do to get back into relevance?

Another thing I liked: Brandon made some choices to wrap things up quickly and then did it. Because let's face it: Jordan had WAAAAYYYYY too many little plot threads out there to possibly give the all the attention that they deserved.

Examples of quick wrap-ups:
-Semhirage
-Graendal
-Meeting with Tuon
-Black Ajah cleansing
-Elaida capture (do we really want to see her any more than necessary? Doesn't your head hurt enough from hitting that desk?),
-Arad Doman (didn't need another tedious Nation-winning plot)
-Aviendha (cool to get her POV, and now she will come back as a legit character again)

I'm looking forward to:

-Fortuona's next meeting with our heroes (humble pie has been served...?)
-Tower of Ghenji (duh)...What impact will Moiraine's return have?
-Faile getting less than 10 pages for the rest of the series (one can hope)
-Galad and Rand meeting
-Gawyn having to admit he's a big DOUCHE
-Moridin/Rand plot development
-Aviendha and Rand, um, well...
-Lan NOT dying...please?
-What is UP with the Black Tower?
Michael McCarthy
154. KilMichaelMcC
One thing about Elaida's characterization it seems to me to be frequently overlooked is her meeting with Padan Fain way back in Fires of Heaven. I believe that in one of Fain's POV's he thinks about how he had "brushed" her with the taint he carried from Aridhol. This, I think, lies at the heart of her transformation from mere incompetence to what we see she's finally become in this book. That her lashing out at Egwene includes denouncing her as a Darkfriend for no logical cause strikes me as directly indicative of this.

On an unrelated note, unnecessary exclamation points are the new "smoothed skirts."
matt
155. mattyh
i am really looking forward to the moiraine + nynaeve reunion. even more so than rand + moiraine. nynaeve's entire driving force for the first few books was learning enough of the power to get even with moiraine.

i hope moiraine is impressed with nynaeve's growth. i certainly am :)
Justin Levitt
156. TyranAmiros
I'm not so sure Graendal's really dead. It would be a bit strange for her to go so anti-climatically. She's been a key Forsaken since TSR and it would be kinda disappointing for her to go out with such a bust...I guess that will be something to discuss as we wait for Towers of Midnight ;)

Personally, I was happy that Elayne and Perrin got the short shrift in the book. I've been tired of Elayne since WH and Perrin since PoD. I loved the focus on Rand in particular, since his character development has kind of been neglected since CoS. I was also thankful the Tower plot ended and the Black Ajah plot came to some resolution--like Mat and the Daughter of the Nine Moons, it needed to end.

However, I also think the lack of Elayne does point to Andor as a key thread for ToM--we have to see Elayne's coronation and the Black Tower thread come to a head. Presumably, this will involve Morgase, Galad, and possibly Gareth Bryne. One heavily foreshadowed plot point from as far back as TDR is a battle in Caemlyn (Egwene's Accepted test).

I would not be surprised if the Battle of Caemlyn turns out to be the "meeting point" of all the major characters before the start of Tarmon Gai'don. Elayne's already there, Mat's planning on going there (even if he drops by the Tower of Ghenji on his way to pick up Moiraine), Perrin has good reasons to drop by, as does Egwene, to resolve all the lingering White Tower/Black Tower threads, and Rand...can certainly find at least one reason to drop by.
Barry T
157. blindillusion
I just finished the book and had to write something.

I don't know if this is mentioned above, but it seems to me channeling the TP was exactly what the DO wanted to happen.

I mean come on, from that point on Rand is surrounded by the Shadow. No few of the key players in this novel mention the "black halo" around him. His ta'veren effect on the Pattern goes completely evil. Even his own heart shrinks away from him as his mind become evil.

Because I'll pose this little thought to everyone. What's the worst emotion you can feel towards someone? Love, hate, anger, fear, etc etc etc. No, the worst emotion is indifference. And that's where Rand was heading. He didn't care anymore. Who wants something like THAT to save them?

Anyway, back to the point above. The DO let Rand channel the TP power in order to conquer the Savior. This would be the "tempting of Jesus" section of the Bible that is WOT.

No one else catch that little exstacy moment Rand felt after the TP bit? He liked it even more that all the Power he could hold with the Choedan Kal. Yes, I think Rand was playing very well into the DO's hands there...pretty much starting to think much like our favorite Forsaken.

And I'm sorry, but after Min's viewing if that was Rand's "beggar" scene we just saw I'm a little disappointed. Granted, I hope is was the "beggar" scene because now we don't have to think about it anymore, but still, it just seemed a little...well, dull to me.

Anyway, a short recap of other characters:

Verin = Moment of Silence. She was awesome. And she was having so much FUN doing it. AWESOME to the nenth degree. I believe nothing more needs to be said.

Mat = FUNNY AS HELL!!! The almost role-playing scene...I had to put the book down I was laughing so hard.

Perrin = I kinda pegged him in one of my earlier comments. Guy's about to have to go through some of the same stuff Rand went through. Hope he handles it better.

Egwene = I've always liked her. She did awesome things. I'm happy. Can't wait to see her meet up with Rand.

Tuon = Hmm, WOW. She stood up to a devil there. And I shall continue to call her Tuon because she took about the dumbest name I think I've ever heard of for her new name. Egads girl, WTF!!

Nyn = Awesome. She did cool things and we all rejoice.

Avi = I kinda knew what they were doing from the start. Guess we'll just have to see what comes of it.

Elaida, er Suffa = ahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

Gawyn = He standing at the right path but still don't know if he's going to take it. Mmppph. Eh well, we'll see.

Cads = What did you expect?

Tam = I LOVE what you had to say after the fact.

Min = Coolness. Level head. Devotion. She'll be the one to explain the "three will be one". Good job.

Taim = Opps, guess we'll have to wait and see.

Elayne = Well, who's about to probably find out her mother is still alive.... Speaking of which, what's Gawyn going to do when he's given this little tidbit?

Talmanes = The perfect counterpoint to Mat. Who'd of thunk it?

Thom = I cannot wait for you to get what you deserve.

Moridin = Egads I hope his little plan backfired and nothing more will come of bringing Rand around to the Dark Side of the Force for a moment there.

Semmy = Lates girl. You were spooky while you lasted.

Gheldy = Hmmm. I'm one to say you're still around.

Pretty much every speaking role in the book = Wonderful.

Mr Jordan = Thank you.

Mr Sanderson = You did a wonderful job.

To anyone above who mentioned what I have mentioned here = I'm sorry. I'm exhausted and didn't really have time to read through all the posts. I just hope someone reads this wall of text and thinks, "Hey, why didn't I notice that?"

The Storm has come and it was AWESOME!!!

Bring on Midnight!!!

err, sorry for any mispelled words and grammatical errors.

edit: On the topic of the sword. Didn't Rand mention they found it under a just dug up statue? Not sure which statue, but that's the impression I got...I'd assumed the actual Choedan Kal as it's the only statue I remember being renovated recently.

Could it be Justice? I don't see why not. But considering Rand mentioned Turak in passing and didn't connect the man with his new sword, I'd say that kind of dispells the Turak's Sword Thoery.
Paul
158. Freeammo
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Firstly thanks to Leigh for a wonderful review, or in fact wonderful pair of reviews! Superbly written.

And boy I loved the book!

aidanyoung1102 @ 153

Totally agree with you about Brandon's style. The book definitely had a "Brandon Climax" over the last third or so, reminded me a lot of Elantris in that regard.

Just a few comments. Apologies if they have been mentioned in the posts above - I have only glanced through!

Rand and LTT - it was fascinating how the physical and mental aspects of the merging happened. My thoughts are that LTT himself was never real (although the memories were), but was actually Rand's emotional self - a schizophrenic alter ego. It was at the start of TSR, when Rand made the decision to become "hard" that he first started getting memories of LTT. As Rand became harder and harder, his emotional half - LTT - became more and more coherent.

Which leads me then to my scene of awesomeness - Rand and Tam's meeting. The last gamble of the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones, and it JUST did enough! I think the fact that there are so many "favourite scenes" in the comments above says more about the book than any number of appreciate reviews can say.

Last mini point - Rand with the TP - I think that Semirhage was "set up" by the DO as a punishment for failure. Rand channelling the TP almost cost him his last link to sanity, plus it punished a "failure" in a truly evil way - giving her false hope before utter despair.

And I've not even mentioned Egwene, Verin (in awe of her courage) and the White Tower! Stunning. With plenty of exclamation marks!
Wilson Grooms
159. stargazer
OK, so this is a little far afield from the main events of TGS. But I just had a thought, so bear with me a moment.... There's been a lot of speculation about how badly learning the truth about sul'dams channeling would shake the Seanchan. I've always been confused how they could possibly not know already, given that presumably they can manufacture more a'dam, and that presumably you need at least some amount of understanding of how an a'dam works in order to make one?

I figure there are two possible ways ouf of this: Either they've got a black box ter'angreal that manufactures a'dams without anyone having to understand the weaves, or some Seanchan secretly already do know the truth. I can imagine a special force of da'covale sul'dam, trusted to know the truth about themselves long enough to manufacture a'dams, and then to take their own lives in service to the empire and its need for secrecy. Plausible, cruel, but very efficient - just like most Seanchan government.
Wilson Grooms
160. ania hyek
i dont know guys how i stopped myself from reading this post
2 days and still no chance of getting a hand on the book here

uugghhhhhhhh i hate it
Abraham Park
161. Abe
Hmmm...I have to get this off my chest, quite heavy. First and foremost, I did not enjoy this book as much as I thought I would. Please...I'M NOT BLAMING MR. SANDERSON, but when I came across what I'm guessing was Mr. Sanderson's writing, I kept thinking - If this character's name wasn't written here, I may be reading a different book. I'm not saying his writing ability is inferior to Jordan's, the reading just felt very, very, very different.

I know I'm clearing defining the definition of a whiny b***h, and I am going to have to deal with it. I mean, I can't bring Mr. Jordan back now can I?

Now apart from the writing style, I thought this one scene was downright non-WOTish. So... Hinderstap...What? I didn't know there was a copy of 28 Days Later's movie script in here!

And this - > Semirhage when thinking of torture - A small, eager part of herself had looked forward to them. BDSM much?

And this - > Fortuona? When I read her name for the first time, I kept thinking of this - "Fanta! Fanta! Do you wanna... Fanta! Fanta!" Anyone else?
Ryan Thistlethwaite
162. shintemaster
I haven't read a word of this review or the comments, and won't until I get a chance to read the book (hopefully this weekend).

Can I just say that the urge to get into this topic is absolutely and horrifyingly strong. Goodbye til next week!
Marina Brindley
163. WhereWomenGlow
Overall, I really enjoyed the book. Felt a bit like Leigh did in her first review, was quite blown away by the sheer amount of significant events. Having raced through it this first time, I'm definitely going to have to go back and go through it more slowly, I'm sure there's a lot of small things I've missed. But first impression definitely WOW.

It did feel a little different to me, but probably less than I expected, and it didn't bother me too much. It drew me back in to the familiar story easily, and that was what I needed to make me happy with it. One thing I did feel was that some of the voices, especially internal, were less subtle – more direct statements, less obscure hints. I also felt a difference in pace that linked in with that, but I had the same thoughts as TedB@125, in that the impending end of the series and the natural tying off of storylines contributes to that, it wasn't only a stylistic thing. The natural arc of the series is of course also a big factor in why so much happens and so many long running mysteries are resolved.

All in all VERY satisfying. Not always enjoyable – most of Rand's POVs were painful to read – but extremely satisfying. Great job on a super difficult task, BS and Team Jordan!


Favourite chapter – Verin with Egwene. Cried and cheered simultaneously. Wonderful sneaky sneaky Verin will be sorely missed.

Was blown away by the escape of Semirhage and the subsequent Min/Rand scene. Huge surprise when Rand drew on the True Power to escape. Wow, wow and more wow. Can't wait to see the implications of that, in both directions.

Gareth and Siuan was very nicely done, big aaaawwwww moment for me.

Gawyn continues to irritate me. His decision making leaves a lot to be desired, and he's so childish it's not funny.

Egwene is very much the star of the book. Was very excited when she finally got to the BA hunters, and enjoyed the second dinner scene, although I do have to agree with previous comments on Elaida's character going a little OTT. The Seanchean attack scenes were just totally MOA – felt the need for a fist pump there! :-) Pretty much all of Egwene = awesome.

Nyn is also fabulous in this book. Admittedly, she's always been my personal favourite, but still, she rocks in this book.

Rand made me sad, a lot, but scared too, more so than ever before. I really wasn't sure if he was going to kill Tam or not in that scene, and that made it seriously scary not just for Tam but for Rand.

Liked the chapter titles – The Death of Tuon made my heart skip a beat when I turned to it! - and the new chapter icons were interesting too.



Zeal @ 144
That did occur to me too, but I thought it was more likely he'd be chuckling about Morgase than the King of Illian. Like I said though, wishful thinking could well be involved :-)
Ed Rafferty
164. BigBoy57
Loved it, just loved it. Well worth the wait and only 12 months until the next one!

The scene where Rand is being forced to to strangle Min was too much for me - I was on the train home from work and I had to put the book down and let a couple of stations go by before I could pick it up and read on - my eyes would not move down the page, they kept flicking up and away - a very strange feeling, let me tell you.

Great review Leigh and marvellously well done by Brandon & RJ.

Roll on the Towers!
F Shelley
165. FSS
Oh - and about the food spoilage issue (especially in Arad Doman): is it Rand causing all the food to spoil? I remember a dream of Rand's in TEOTW where Thom goes all "Fisher King" quoting about the Dragon being one with the land. It would seem that the food rotting is a visable sign of Rand's heart's status, not the Dark One's touch. This would also explain why keepings and wardings no longer work to keep food fresh. It's not the DO or a faialing of the Power, it's the Pattern itself. It will be interesting to see if Rand's epiphany will change this...
Wilson Grooms
166. SoneA
Page* ( sorry for spelling)
Wilson Grooms
167. SoneA
Gaylord @ 152
I totally missed the whole sword thing.
Could you give me a reference to where it is?
I mean like pagenumber /chapter
Rob Munnelly
168. RobMRobM
@165. That is an incredibly perceptive observation. Wow. Agree 100%. Note that once Rand gets his act together at end, sunlight dawns over Tar Valon in the final chapter. Rob
Rob Munnelly
169. RobMRobM
By the way, here are some of my predictions from the last LOC post. Looks like I did OK but most will be RAFO for next book:

Rand and Avi will renew their "relationship" (with Min's approval) and she'll get knocked up. -- Next book.

Eg will discover the BA hunters in the WT by discovering the conflicting oaths sworn by the ferrets. She will be enlisted to help and the BA hunters will be a backbone of efforts to put her in place of Elaida. -- mostly correct

Mat will drop the bulk of his camp followers in Camelyn before he heads to Tower of Ghenjie, and Setalle will begin helping Elayne with ter'greals. -- first half is correct; see next book re Setalle.

Tallanvor will die trying to save Morgase from harm and Tam will save her. -- Next book.
Rob Munnelly
170. RobMRobM
Another prediction from last LoC thread

@309 - Elaida collared could definitely happen. Seanchan will attack using their Fists of Heaven, elite troops that attack via Raken. Keep in mind Elaida is keeping her rooms at the top of the highest tower. Boom - little Laida starts pleasing her sul'dam to get treats. -- Yes!!!!
Rob Munnelly
171. RobMRobM
On a less successful note, with some trepidation I supported Lsiel's theory that Sheriam was getting abused by Lelaine rather than Halima. Nice theory but didn't work.

Ditto re her theory that Lelaine would try to usurp Eg's position as Amyrlin> Moving in that direction but never got there - 1/3 credit at best.

I also said that Eg would be tried by Elaida for some crime and that Siuan and Gawyn would come to try to save her. 1/3 credit at best.
Pete Pratt
172. PeteP
On the sword -- its in an early chapter -- I just ran through this part in my re-read last night. My theory -- this was not the only time Rand was spun out since LTT died. Some of the other "False" Dragons were Rand/LTT. The sword was of those guys', especially since LTT does not remember it, but Rand does.
Henry Loose
173. schrodinger
I just thought of something... when Semi escaped, she got Rand to choke Min... later, LTT added her name to the list, but she lived... Rand used the TP to heal her... he used the power of the DO to heal her... she could have been dead and the use of the TP can heal death... or I'm completely wrong. Aaaaand.... Discuss!

Also, I had several theories on the nature of Rand's head condition... regarding his present condition at the end of the book, I believe that he is now The Dragon from TAR, but with the Rand part of him in control (as he is the most recent version of himself), so essentially, he is like Birgitte, existing in the world as a hero, remembering all he did.
F Shelley
174. FSS
OK - here's another new theory Re: Egwene's dream that a Seanchan would help her off the cliff and they would reach the summit together. That COULD be the attack that ipso facto deposed Elaida, but could it be Tylee realizing that Aes Sedai don't deserve to be collared? Could she rise even further and make peace in Randland and peace with Tar Valon? What happens to Tuon? Does she go home and fight for Seandar and leave Tylee in charge?

RobM - hopefully you weren't being sarcastic with me re: my comments at 165. I only come here and the old Atari forums for my WoT fix. If this had been discovered earlier (the Fisher King thing is starting to seem obvious in retrospect) I'm sorry I missed it. I'm just a poor old project manager, not Comp Lit major. Of course, if my comment really IS new, maybe I missed my calling...
Matthew Smith
175. blocksmith
So much to comment on...where to start. I thought TGS was fantastic. I was concerned after reading/hearing chapters 1 and 2 because I felt the different style. These differences, with one exception, disappeared for me while reading the novel in its entirety. Very Well Done, BrS. (BS means something completely different for me).

First and foremost, I loved the balefiring of Graendal and the Narrows. A) It was one of those "if you got the power to take out one of your worst enemies, use it" moments that fans have been longing for. B)the scene reminded me of WWII. The decision to drop the atomic bom, even though sacrificing innocents, to halt additional countless casualties. A difficult decision but one that needed to be done.

Also, Rand's final scene on Dragonmount was great, but I could not get the image of the Grinch's heart growing a size to large out of mind.

And finally, characters are COMMUNICATING! I know not all of them, but some. Especially loved Siuan relating to Bryne why she "broke" her oath. Explanation=understanding.

LeighDB

I attributed Elaida's descent to crazy as gradual PFES (Padan Fain Exposure Syndrome). Kind of like listening to Nancy Pelosi too much :).

And, yes, used to be Verin=sneaky; now Verin=holycrapbadass/sneaky, which = awesome^2

Kab1 @60

My reaction entirely to the Rand/Min/Semirhage scene.

Also, I compared it immediately to Jesus Christ and the crucification. Semirhage's words are so close to "Lord, why hast thou forsaken me?", excepting only she was not redeemed. A very interesting parallel. Surprised no one mentioned this yet.

Kab1 @ 98

The Arad Domon abandonment bothered me the most also.

Jamsedjones @67 and Jwdenzel@101

I agree with Mr. Jones on one point only...I thought the Aviendha scenes were drawn out beyond need. I disagree with everything else. My reaction to the changes in Mat's character (which I noticed, tough not to) I attributed to post-marriage stress disorder. All married men have gone through it. I change, you change, we all change...'cause there is now someone in your life more important than you. Further, I thought the Mat and Talmanes exchange about women was LOL hilarious...no, that does not make me misogynistic.

Mr. Sanderson, keep up the great work and be proud of the job you did. I know RJ is smiling...no braid tugging there.
Rob Munnelly
176. RobMRobM
@174. Not sarcastic at all. Dare I say, brilliant insight.
Wilson Grooms
177. Tabernerus
There are at least a couple of comments in this thread that suggest that after the finale, Rand can no longer channel the One Power - that he was severed when he crushed the CK. Or maybe I totally read the comments wrong. Always a distinct possibility. :-)

What do people think? We got the barest few lines of dialogue, none of which had much to do with "Hey, look at this wondering True Source I can still clearly channel!" I suspect I'm reading too much into a couple of lines ("The power winked out."). Can someone please soothe my nerves here?
Wilson Grooms
178. tearl
LOVED the book!

...But I do agree that Mat was "off". The thing that stood out to me was not the whining or one-liners but the capture/assault plan. Multiple assumed characters with PAGES of backstory, "there was good drama in those pages". All this from a guy who maybe has read a book, sometime.

That said, it set up one of the LOL moments for me, from Mandevwin after the plan was called off,

"Does this mean I can go back to my poor aged aunt?"
Pete Pratt
179. PeteP
I did not think the Avi chapters were over done. We have had very few Avi chapters and I was glad to get them.

I do not think she was too slow to explode. Avi had internalized the Aiel culture so much (obey, accept discipline, etc) that she had to break throw to actually reject all of her training and beliefs.

As noted in the book, the Wise Ones had to work extra hard to get her to finally break the conditioning. Much like Nyn breaking her block, I really loved Avi breaking her ingrained conditioning to realize she is fully in control of herself. And then I loved her finding out how Wise Ones structure themselves.
Jason Deshaies
180. darxbane
I got through the Hinderstrap and Verin meetings last night. I agree about the aged poor Aunt thing - that was pretty funny. Although it is true that Mat didn't read much, he also wasn't trained as a master general, either. The memories he received may have been mostly about battles, but he did have memories of dancing and other things, all of which became natural abilities of his. It's not too hard to assume that one of the memories he got was from a soldier who was also and accomplished writer.

I don't understand where the zombie thing is coming from. The whole town goes insane every night, then everything resets in the morning. None of them are "undead", and they don't try to eat each other, just kill each other. It's quite a dabolical curse, knowing you do something horrible each night, but not remembering any of it. You people are way too protective of Mat. I would love to find out that RJ completed one of the Mat scenes you are all complaining about, just to see the reaction.
Wilson Grooms
181. ArgusRun
The three for Callandor.... Nyn and Moraine. That's why Moraine needs to be back. And Nyn will continue to be drawn between her love for Lan and her duty to Rand as both a Two Rivers man and the Dragon.

Rand will have to convince her that her real place in the upcoming battle is with Rand.

Also...
OMG the book was awesome!!!!!
Wilson Grooms
182. Wes S.
TGS was pure awesome. And Verin...wow. Same for Egwene. This was her book as much as anything.

Somebody needs to slap this current edition of Mat. His depiction was the one thing that rang false about the whole book to me.

(Well, that and the cover art. Rand is depicted as managing to look both angry and constipated. And that upraised fist is just begging to have a middle finger photoshopped onto it, "Last Great Defiance" style.)

I devoured TGS as soon as I got it; I'll take my time with the novel in a second reading this weekend. High points for me, besides Verin and Egwene:

"The Gathering Storm" struck me as much a depiction of Rand's mental state as it was the coming of the Last Battle.

I'm sure Suffa will be a good damane...snork.

And if Cadsuane really wanted Rand to "learn to laugh and cry again," all she had to do was let him watch her rub Semirhage's nose in her own mess and paddle her bottom like a disobedient puppy. That scene sure had me ROFLMAOing to the point of tears...

Rand's meeting with Tam...eek.

Semi, Rand and Min...eek.

And I thought only the Dark One could give permission for someone to channel the True Power? If he did let Rand touch the TP...agreed, it must have been an attempt to subvert Rand somehow. And Rand's descent into madness seemed to accelerate after he touched it, even given what Semi did to Rand and Min before Rand balefired her.

My first thought on the "sword of light and the three shall be as one" thing was that it meant Rand was channeling through Callandor with the aid of the three women he's bonded to (with Elayne and Aviendha, as the ones who can channel, helping him buffer the flows and Min somehow linked to he other two). However, if that's so where does that leave Alanna, who's also bonded to him?

If this is the correct theory: Wonder if Alanna's going to check out in the next installment of the series?

(Word verification: "Fresno Franklin?" WTF?)
Wilson Grooms
183. Nightbaron
I agree with RobMRobM, FSS's insight about the Fisher King tied to the land and the food corruption being tied to him was one of the best theories I've seen out there. Thanks!

Ok, so what a book, eh? It's hard to comment without repeating a lot of what's been said, but I know I'm not the only one feeling a desperate need to discuss and comment, so here goes. I'll try to focus on what hasn't been said, but know that what I don't mention, I probably LOVED.

I thought the book was great, and that Sanderson's effort was masterful. Knowing he kept a lot of Jordan's writing and patched it with his own, I was afraid to read a fractured book, but I found it seamless, with a style that was somewhat in between Jordan's and Sanderson's own.

I also agree with what seems to be a majority, that Mat felt off. The first monologue was very awkward, as was the "saidared" line. Making up new words, or unusual verbs out of words feels really contemporary (Whedonesque, as mentioned), but overall I didn't bug me much. I thought his interactions with the band bordered on comedy routine, but it wasn't enough to make me dislike it.

When Leigh first posted that some of Branderson's choices were brave, I assumed she meant a very different scene. I know Sanderson posted that one of the things he needed to sometimes figure was out to get the right people at the right place and the right time, so the scene which jumped up at me as "brave" was Mat and Verin's Great Ta'veren Pull. It felt like an extreme interpretation of the definition of Ta'veren, only to get Verin to Mat's location when she had no idea where he was, and while it was interesting, it just felt... extreme.

I see that, like me, most people figured out Aviendha's situation from the beginning. It doesn't meant I found it too long, or predictable, it means I thought it was perfectly in line with the world we've known for a long time, and therefore made perfect sense.

I really enjoyed that the chapters were slightly shorter than usual, and that there was much more POV jumping than usual. I thought it made the book flow much better than when we get big blocks of chapters for every PoV.

I was a bit saddened that we learned that Galad would meet with Perrin's team through Rand's swirling colors, or that Mat was in Caemlyn the same way. I think it's obviously due to the split in books and the decision to include Rand's full arc while keeping Perrin and Mat's for the next book, and that we'll see it from their PoV when it actually happens. I REALLY hope we don't skip over it, as it is something I'm greatly looking forward to.

I really enjoyed the meeting between Rand and Tuon, which would have been my "book-throwing" moment. It made perfect sense, but it was so aggravating! Loved it.

I didn't think zombies when in Hinderstap (though I can see the resemblance now), and thought it was an interesting new way of seeing the Dark One's touch on the world. Made for a fun action sequence.

Loved learning more about Bandar Eban and Arad Doman in general. I thought that while Graendal's alleged death (I think she IS dead, myself) felt a bit anti-climactic, I thik it made perfect sense. How do you kill someone who WON'T face off with you? I also loved the detective work by Nynaeve and Rand to corner her. It was the most proactive Team Light has ever been in regards to Forsaken.

My theory for Rand's new sword is that it's the (now, after the Choedal Kan has been destroyed) most powerful sa'angreal for men. It had been mentioned that there were two more powerful than Callandor, and we knew the first, so I think this might end up being the second. Just a theory.

I know I'm not mentioning the moments of awesome like Verin, Egwene's entire arc, Rand channeling the TP, etc... because you all have said it much better than I did.

Over all, loved the book, really excited to read more of your reactions!
Wilson Grooms
184. Merrillfic
Leigh @ 23:

Well, maybe "The Tick" writers got it from "The Hulk." They were pretty groovy that way, and it'd be just like me to miss it.

The episode in question involved a clown genetically engineered by a scientist to be SUPER-funny, but ended up being super powerful to go along with being super funny-looking, and he'd get really, really hurt by people laughing at it. Then he'd go "CLOWN SMASH!" with this angry face and bust s**t up.
Wilson Grooms
185. douglasm
I just thought of an interesting crazy theory:

Part 1: The Callandor + "three shall be as one" line of prophecy.
Part 2: The theory several commenters have suggested of Rand piggybacking on Moridin's access to the True Power without the Dark One's approval.
Part 3: To make the Seals, Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions had to touch the Dark One with their weaves.

Crazy speculative conclusion: The final sealing will be done by Rand, in a circle, with a man channeling saidin, a women channeling saidar, and Rand himself channeling the True Power, using Callandor to amplify all three. Some part of the seal has to touch the Dark One, apparently, and this time around that part will be made of the True Power woven against the Dark One's will by Rand co-opting Moridin's access. Go ahead, Dark One, taint the True Power, I dare you! :-P

Of course, there's also the problem of whether the Dark One could directly control or dismantle something woven of the True Power after it was formed, but maybe the touching-the-Dark-One part is only necessary to anchor the seals while they are being woven.
Wilson Grooms
186. Ishmayl
129. Eithin:

Ishmayl: Hopefully, there will be just a schmidgin of time-going-backwards-ness in the next book to cover thoroughly what Mat and Perrin have been up to, with none of the "Three Months Later..." BS.

Oh, please no! We find out at the end of TGS that Things Have Been Happening with Perrin, and that none of them - with the exception of Morgase's reveal - were interesting enough for Tam to tell Rand about. I like long books as much as anyone, and more than most, but I want the next book to start off going forwards, rather than going back to catch up and wait for everyone to get to the same stage in the plot. Sanderson's got a good pace going, and he's not going to slow it down with another gratuitous half-dozen chapters of Faile and Berelain being idots.


So you're telling me you don't want to see Galad's reaction to meeting his mother, Galad and Berelain's reactions to each other, and even (possibly more importantly), Byar and Dain's reactions to coming across Perrin again??? Forgive me for wanting to see those reactions that will surely be pretty dramatic.
Marc
187. marcamante
First off, absolutely loved the book, though I need to read it again to absorb everything. I definitely yelled out loud during the Rand/Min scene, it was so intense.

But, as a huge Mat fan, I was also disappointed with his sequences, though after his second chapter I felt that he improved a lot. and I actually liked the Hinderstap scene, and he did have some of his usual humor as well. Also Vanin and Talmanes bugged me, they felt really odd. But this was not even close to damaging my opinion of the book

the one thing that DID really irk me was the Choedan Kal access key suddenly becoming pocket sized. I mean, wtf? It had to be carried in a big scrip before, and was mentioned to be at least a foot tall or so. Its smallness and transportability seemed like a plot issue at times, so this really bothered me. BUT...I'm really nitpicky

Egwene, though, was totally awesome, she's always been a favorite and got even better.

I think BS did a great job and I'm really looking forward to the next books!
Sarah Wilson
188. Wilson
First, loved the book, though I agree about Mat, and I'm trying to justify it in my head having something to do with maturing and figuring out how to adjust to being married. I felt that Mat's whole point of being in this book was to add filler via brain pictures of other two, and I was yelling at him to just get on with saving Moiraine already!!

Though there were many awesome parts, my fav?

Tam - What the hell did you do to my son!?!

I'm glad someone had sense to put blame where it was needed. Thanks also to Min for that.
F Shelley
189. FSS
@187 - agree with your comment about the size of the CK access key. It just seemed weird, although I do remember something about Rand having an "oversized" pocket, but it would have to be the size of his chest to fit a 1 foot statue in there.

I'm guessing this was a small mistake on BS' part. Not a huge deal, but just a little weird...
Barry T
190. blindillusion
@185

Your theory is interesting though I question whether the Seals will be used at all. The Seals create a patch. Rand has to completely re-do the DO's Prison.

Though in retrospect this theory is possible. After all, using all three of the Powers to heal the Prison could be what causes the backlash, and this time the backlash takes the ability to channel from mankind.

It has to happen at some point. This is Earth we're talking about. Eventually the Wheel has to spin back around to, well...us.
Wilson Grooms
191. Confutus
It wasn't until I wrote it out for myself that I realized that the odd speling of ForTUONa's name is meaningful.
Wilson Grooms
192. Steve Dallas
I finished the book last night and loved it. There were many great moments in it.

The Egwene storyline was extremely well done and the Verin/BA revelation was definately an awesome moment of the series.

I somehow guessed exactly what was going on with Avheindha, probably because I'm also a big fan of Raymond Feist. It was very similar to how Pug figured out that he was no longer a novice magician.
Wilson Grooms
193. enlotta7
Oddly enough, I had the most problem with the first part of Egwene's storyline. She just seemed a bit TOO, I dunno, saintly to me. It wasn't until Elaida's dinner scene with Egwene standing up to her, did I really get that sense of "oh, awesome!" It was good from then on out, though.

And thank you, Faile, for taking care of Masema. Ugh. That man bothered me. Also, glad that Perrin finally took that small bit of time to think of Aram.

I was a bit upset that both Verin and Sheriam wound up being BA, but loved (and hated) Verin's last scene. It was beautifully written.

Mat-I though his scenes were very funny. But, no, not really the Mat we know and love.

It's always darkest before the dawn (or however that quote goes) seems to be Rand's thing this book and it works for me, but god, did I keep saying, "What are you DOING?" and "Oh, no you didn't."

In the end, very satisfied. Plotlines got resolved and people actually TALKED TO EACH OTHER. Loved, loved, loved.
Leigh Butler
194. leighdb
Nightbaron @ 183:

See, the thing I assumed about Verin's Tale of Ta'veren Pull Woe was that it was lies from start to finish.

Others:

I'm pretty much positive Rand's sword is Hawkwing's Justice. The reason is because the only other time besides the first chapter Rand thinks about it is when he arrives in Falme, which *specifically reminds him* of the sword.

Pretty much clinches it for me.
Wilson Grooms
195. Mike G.
I applaud "competency porn" as a description of the Egwene sections. Awesome.

And the Verin solution was so perfectly Brown Ajah, it was great.

1 question, though, @50 Be'Lal:

For how much happened, surprisingly few longstanding issues are definitively cleared up. By my count, the following WOTFAQ questions are definitively answered:

...
2.6.4 [AS Money--doubtless everyone was waiting for that one]


I missed that in my quick read - how was the money question answered?

Thanks,

Mike
F Shelley
196. FSS
@194 - well, there's also this (seemingly straightforward prophecy from the beginning of TEOTW:

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
(from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)


Since that's from the 4th Age, it seems likely the sword in question would be Justice, called by name...
Wilson Grooms
197. Dholton
I finished reading last night, and overall I loved it. Much of what I liked and not so liked has already been discussed, so I'll try to avoid repeats. Here we go:

Mat- I think the main problem with BS's treatment of Mat was that most of the humor concerning Mat was due to his internal thoughts and reactions to what was happening around him, whereas BS mostly treated him from an external point of view, using comic dialogue, as opposed to an internal monologue.

Parallels- I was struck by the number of parallels of people and situations both within this book and between books. For instance, the similarity between Verin and Moiraine, and their endings (if that's the correct term for Moiraine). Both made great sacrifices for the greater good, both left farewell letters, and in my opinion, each in their own inimitable fashion proved that they are truly the epitome of what it means to be an Aes Sedai (in the best way).

Another parallel is between the situations of Rand and Egwene. Both being essentially tortured, and tested to their limits, and there is much comparing and contrasting how each reacts. Egwene herself even remarks on it.

Then there's the whole prophecy re Callandor. "The three must be one." Now the obvious conclusion, (too me anyway) is that Avi, Min and Elayne, must act together with Rand to use Callandor to seal the Bore. But one that may be less obvious is that there have been hints that Rand and Lews Therin must merge, (which has happened), and also I think that Rand and *Moridin* will in some way be merging thru their link. Again, "the three must be one." Rand, LT and Moridin. An interesting male/female parallel of unification.

Artwork- Now I'm no great fan of DKS, and didn't really like the TGS cover. And while reading the early part of the book, I was surprised that the scene it portrayed was ostensibly such a minor one. But as I continued reading the book, I came to realize that one of the main arcs of the book was Rand's descent into near(?) madness. So, while I may fault DKS's execution of the cover, I have to give him some props for a thematically appropriate one.

Now, the image that I would like to see depicted someday, in some form, would be that of Egwene in the Battle of the White Tower. I see it in my mind's eye, pov from behind her as she stands looking out of a hole in the wall, sa'angreal in hand, glowing with the power, wind blowing in her hair. Awesome!

I don't remember the exact circumstances, due to my rush to read the book, but hints are given that the Last Battle may not be what Rand (and we) think it will be. While I have no doubt some battles will be involved, I think the Last Battle itself will be something else. Evidence points to at least some of it taking place in Rand's mind. Will he be goaded into using balefire to destroy the Pattern? (Of course that's largely settled now....for the momemt)

thoughts/quibbles/questions:

1) Given the level of the DO's awareness of his followers as evidenced by what he did to Mesaana, I'm surprised Verin got away with as much as she did. Also, just realized another piece of Verin's Awesomeness: she's still vulnerable to the DO even after death, and she probably knew it and did it anyway. *sigh of sadness*

2) As noted by others, BS did seem to use some real world turns of phrase, which I would have thought the editing process would have caught, such as "loss of face" or "do the math"

3) While BS may have had some problems with Mat's voice, and to a lesser extent some others, I thought he was spot on with Egwene.

4) Leaving aside the moral problems of how he actually did it, I thought Rand's approach to dealing with Graendal was perfect. Don't oppose a schemer with schemes, but as directly as possible. That being said, I was disappointed there was no pov given of her, (or Elaida for that matter).
5) While the scenes with Rand, Semirhage and Min, and Rand and Tam where intense, my biggest Moment of Despair was when Siuan and Gawyn "rescued" Egwene. I screamed "NOOOOO!!!" at the thought of all her hard work gone to waste.

6) Having Mat's ta'vereness grab Verin from a distance (and up to now, they've had to be on the spot to have an effect I think) was really a rather brute force method to get Mat where he needed to be for the next book.

7) That being said, if I'm reading the timelines correct for the different plot threads, I think both Mat and Perrin's are a couple weeks behind Rand and Egwene's, as evidenced by Rand's glimpes of the other two. They seem to be ahead of the actual POV's we get of the two. So I'm guessing ToM will occurring largely concurrent with TGS events, catching everybody up temporally speaking for the Last Battle in AMOL.

8) One of the Minor Moments of Awesome was Rand's revelation to Nynaeve that he *knows* they think hardness is the wrong direction, and gives his reasons. Self-awarenes revealed! (even if he's still wrong)

9) I'm still hoping that we'll see Egwene telling Verin's Story to her sisters. Such nobility should be honored publicly.

10) Oh, Verin...her true tragedy is that she didn't need to die. She just the oath rod. *sniff*
F Shelley
198. FSS
@195 - Tower Aes Sedai started beating the Salidar Aes Sedai to the various kingdom's money people to collect their tribute, and the kingdoms wouldn't pay twice. Can't remember the chapter though.

The same chapter also said something about the fact that the tribute was no longer needed, but done to keep everyone in their place; that the tower had better ways to raise money, but it didn't go into that.

I imagine the same way rich people stay rich, investments and stealing.
Wilson Grooms
199. Confutus
Tam's comments to Cadsuane put a finger on a sore spot. I am hard put to think of a single one of the Aes Sedai who has not begun trying to bully or manipulate Rand.
It seems that this is a moral blindness caused by the three oaths. Egwene is the first to see that the Wise Ones and the Windfinders are respected, not seen as scheming manipulators, and that the oath to speak no word that is not true has to be internalized. The fact that the Aes Sedai have relied on an externally enforced binding while trying to evade the letter has created a well deserved reputation for being scheming, manipulative, and untrustworthy.
Rand has been reacting to that bullying and manipulation as well as the nearly indistinguishable manipulations of the DO and his minions. Nynaeve and Egwene are the only two of the Aes Sedai who have ever seen the good-natured, good-hearted young man that Tam raised and knew. To everyone else, Rand is a terrible, fearsome creature of destruction, power and madness.
Now that Rand has teetered on the edge and come back, I'm hoping he will find his center and become a true champion of the Light.
Eva Lane
200. eblij
Well there doesn't seem to be any more to say than has already been said, but I want to add my voice to the general chorus in support of Egwene. She is absolutely made of awesome. I think ended up SQUEE-ing a lot for her.

Verin: still awesome.

Rand's chapters were so tragic. I felt exhausted by his descent into madness and depression. This *has* to be rock bottom, right? RIGHT? I'm really excited to see how link between Rand and Moridin plays out.

I would say the only thing I really had an issue with was Mat. I found his chapters less exciting than usual and the character less competent, but I'm more than willing to admit that I was all about Egwene during the first reading. Wow.

When's the next one?! Can't wait...aaaah!
Wilson Grooms
201. kab1
@142 and @RobM- I also totally thought of you and your Tam and Morgase theory when reading that "Kings don't whine" line. Literally, I stopped, and thought oh maybe he got that from Morgase! and then kept reading. Heh. I'm not sure if Tam and Morgase are in the future (I'd actually like to see her with Tallanvor, ever since the scene where he reswore his oaths to her was described) but I'd like to see Tam with someone, but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't get resolutions like that.
Wilson Grooms
202. MSedai
EEEP!

After so much floating around plot-wise, it was absolutely awesome to have things start happening!
And I have to agree with pretty much everyone on this thread that Mat seemed a little off, although the only time it pulled me out of the story was the 'saidared' comment.

As to Verin- I read the "I am Black Ajah" line and stopped reading to hit myself over the head several times with the book--I didn't have a desk handy. I mean, geez, how many convoluted crazy theories were there about Verin, and I never heard too many people going, well, what if she actually did go Black Ajah to be undercover? Awesome.

And the comment about LTT not really being real? I read that and thought, oh Leigh is going to shove that in everyone's face! She did it gracefully, however.

I really like the Fisher King explanation for why Rand seemed to be emanating evil, I want it to be that so much more than his brush with the TP and connection with Moridin, although I suspect I will be disappointed.

I'm not sure I believe that Graendal is actually dead, because of how much we were set up in the prologue to start getting to see more of her, but that could be a case of RJ setting it up and BS finishing it quickly to get it out of the way...

I think that Egwene/Gawyn is still major trouble. I can't believe that he is going to be totally ok with her being Amyrlin and telling him he has been a total a**hole, and oh, by the way, you are an idiot for thinking Rand killed Morgase. I think she is still in danger from him, and just because they have finally met again does not necessarily mean the Warder option of Min's vision is on its way.

And I was a little confused with the Aviendha plotline, because I was sure she needed to come back to be the one to save Rand. Maybe she still does, because recovering from that much of a hell is not going to be peaches and cream.

And does anyone think that Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne is a possibility? I think it is more likely in his new mindset- I mean that has been so much set up I can't imagine that it will be completely tossed out as WRONG-try again! Maybe it happens in such a way as that Rand doesn't think he has submitted, but For(Tuon)a does?

And lastly, I didn't catch Fortuona=Lady Luck, but I did get Rand's heart of stone=cuendillar.
Michael McCarthy
203. KilMichaelMcC
Wanted to point out a continuity error I (think) I noticed: Sulin leads the Maidens who scout out around Greandal's place, but she's still supposed to be with Perrin's group, isn't she?
Joseph Blaidd
204. SteelBlaidd
As I think back over this newest instalment in the WoT the overarching theams of the book.

There are three main theams that underlie every single POV in this book. They are Leadership, Constraints, and Motivation. What does a leader do and why do they do it. This comes out most explicetly in Rand as he comes back to himself as he contemplates his fathers question about his motivation, but we see it in Perrin's first real self examination, the whole Tower fiasco is a result of the majority of the sisters being more intersted in being "in charge" than in thinking about what they were going to do once the were. Tuon and Aviendha both think deeply about addapting to the new people they need to deal with and what the burdens of maintaing peace are. We get Besalain's accepting of the burdans of true kingship even if it is as a subject of the Empress.

Gwayn provides the oppoutunity for several important observations on what happens when you don't take sufficient thought to why you do something especialy if your deccisions affect lots of people. We saw his problem as far back as tEotW when his mom chastises him for just following allong when Elayne does something stupid. He can't afford to do things because they're easy and make him feel better.

The constraints of Rand's life are mirrored in Perrin and Mat, both of whom are just now begining to realize that they are just as firmly bound to the pattern and that they can't hide from it in obscureity. Rand has accepted the binding of the patten but that has made him less and less willing to accept other bonds. Compare this to Avhienda who has bound her self to the position of Aprentice and ji'e'toh and must learn that the duty of being a Wise One requires knowing when to break these bonds.

13Depository Thread
Wilson Grooms
205. Snowlan
Truly an awesome book -- it took me a little while to get used to BrS's writing style -- but he in the end does an excellent job of entering and chronicling RJ's Wheel of Time world. (Although there are a few minor but glaring missteps, such as Talmanes -- A Cairheinen - suddenly developing a taste for a "red coat, trimmed with gold" and the unexplained shift in the proper form of addressing the unveiled Tuon from "Highness" at the end of KOD to "Highest Daughter" in TGS) . . . But overall, I was very impressed.

I was not disappointed with Rand's last two chapters, because they seemed (to me) to sum up and provide the capstone to the most important theme I saw running through the entire arcs of character development for Rand, Egwene, and Avienda. I would attempt to summarize that theme as: "maturity recognizes that true strength comes from the inner knowledge of yourself and your own motives, not from anything external."

Avienda ceases to be an apprentice when she relies on her own strength and ceases to look for approval from the other Wise Ones - when she trusts her internal compass more than external approval.

Egwene becomes the true Amylin when she realizes her responsibility for the whole Tower whether or not those she serves acknowledge her as the Amyrlin, something internal - and deeper - than just trying to tear down Elaida and force all to an external acknowledge of her position.

Rand's motivation for fighting the Last Battle shifts from something external - "I will do what I must, because Pattern chose me and I have no choice" - to something deeper and internal - "I choose to continue this battle because I myself want to fight it and I think good will come of it."

This theme is not limited to the main characters. Shemerin lost her position as an Aes Sedai because she accepted and internalized Elaida's judgment on her own worth. By contrast, Verin's dying message can be distilled to "they can make me externally Black Ajah, but they can't force me to become a Darkfriend in my heart."

As Tam said to Rand (thus provoking the final catharsis): "The choice isn't always about what you do, son, but why you do it."
Henry Loose
206. schrodinger
@Snowlan 205
I think you just hit the nail on the head as to what this book was about (while Eg's kicking some Seanchan ass was good, Rand's decision chapters at the end were the best of the entire book).
Pete Pratt
207. PeteP
Re-reading last night, I had another favorite line -- when Siuan and Eg are meeting up early in the book and Siuan tells Eg about Asha'man bonding Aes Seadi. Eg goes all "who gave the Dragon Reborn permission to allow his men to do this" etc. And Siuan responds "He is the Dragon Reborn. He does not need to ask permission" -- a classic display of why Eg is still being stupid toward Rand and why Siuan is awesome.
Rachel Vines
208. metria31183
@207
I remember taking Siuan's comment as sarcasm when I read that. IMO, it's not a good example of how Siuan sees Rand in a better light than Egwene.
Pete Pratt
209. PeteP
I did not see that as sarcasm, especially given how she tries to divert the blame from Rand in the next sentence.

Siuan fully realizes that Rand is the Dragon Reborn and has since she first saw him. Meanwhile, Eg still thinks Rand is the boy she had a crush on that is too big for his britches.

Speaking of this, I am very glad Nyn no longer has this problem -- again, major props to Nynaeve in tGS. She may not have the single chapter of greatness like the Golden Crane, but Nyn as a bunch of good stuff and acts more adult than she did in the earlier books.
Rikka Cordin
210. Rikka
@121 wawwen

O Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi

hrm. Oh Fortune, empress of the world... how fitting. ;)


also, anyone else feel like Egwene and Rand parallel each other in some very interesting ways? The two of them united would be a force to reckon with!
Sam Mickel
212. Samadai
I just had a holy shit moment.

What if the ending of tGS when Rand is laughing again is really when he officially becomes the Dragon Reborn. It would go along with the prophecy and allow the land to start healing before the last battle. because lets face it even if the light wins there will be no food for anyone to eat and most if not all will die.
Sam Mickel
213. Samadai
Rand comes down from the mountain as a beggar, ends up with the traveling people, teaches them the song of growing, Perrins' next quest is to find him and bring him back to face the DO( thus fulfilling mins second time Perrin has to be there.
Wilson Grooms
214. wawwen
@210 Rikka

Much of the piece is about love, making love, drinking (lots of drinking actually) and I think (but not sure as it's been a long time since I read the translation) gambling. The work as a whole also is about the turning of fortune's wheel.
Wilson Grooms
215. Lily of the Valley
I imagine the same way rich people stay rich, investments and stealing.

Yes, because hard work and managerial skill has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Re: Nynaeve - While she didn't have a singular moment of condensed Win such as The Golden Crane, I found that I enjoyed her just as much if not more than the previous books in her few chapters here. While I still disagree with the entire premise of "controlling" or "guiding" Rand, I can appreciate her worry on his behalf and her willingness to take some initiative to help him reach his goals, such as finding and killing Graendal. [I still wanna see a body. Until then, I am skeptical if she is, in fact, dead. Especially with that PoV we get of her sometime earlier in the book. It seems kind of a let down if that's it. To me, at least.]

I also noticed that she really didn't provide as much humor as before with her internal dialogue, but the difference is one I didn't notice until now and am satisfied with. :) She's matured, and is really starting to be worthy of both respect and her position within the Aes Sedai hierarchy. I get the feeling tht eventually she will be high up on the White Tower ladder not just for her inborn Power-weilding abilites, but for herself.

Also: Am not feeling a Happily Ever After vibe for her and Lan. ): Way to go, Min.
F Shelley
216. FSS
@215 - sorry, was trying to be funny, not class-warfare-ish.

...on the other hand, how much hard work and managerial skill has the White Tower shown prior to Egwene taking over?
Wilson Grooms
217. D.S. Crankshaw
I have to agree that Mat was off. He was funny, no question, but not really on character. The first scene, and his rant, seemed off to me, though it was hard to put a finger on it. He definitely complains about women, and will go on about it sometimes, but I think the real problem was the stretched analogy. Not that he's never used an analogy before (especially analogies concerning dice), but that one just went on and on.

But the one that really threw me, and which others have pointed out already, was the Legends chapter. It was the funniest chapter in the book, and it was really, really unlike Mat. First, Mat is a skilled liar. It's practically the first thing we learn about him. He's certainly capable of making up extended stories on the spot (see The Dragon Reborn, when he meets Gaebril and Morgase), but he's smart enough to keep them simple, and not too imaginative. And his lying is usually improvisational, not planned. I can see him coming up with a cover story, but something that involved? Then, of course, there's writing out pages and pages of backstory. We only see Mat write something once in the novels, in A Crown of Swords, and it's quite clear that he's not much for it. To quote: "His hand was awkward and square. He had no love of writing." It's a laborious task for him. Yeah, I have a hard time seeing him writing pages and pages of elaborate backstory.
Wilson Grooms
218. Lily of the Valley
I'm sorry, too. .-. It's just, one day I wanna BE rich, and I get kind of irked when people insinuate that rich people are thieves and don't deserve their fortunes. Don't get me wrong, there are horrible people out there with lots of money *coughBernieMadofcough* but really, no more than there are average horrible people with less money.

And, you're right on the second count. Pretty sure the leaders of the nations that are bowing to the Aes Sedai have more kill actually managing things than the Aes Sedai themselves.

Which is kind of sad.

Hopefully that'll change now. :D
Wilson Grooms
219. Lily of the Valley
*skill, even.

@__@ I need to log in...
Wilson Grooms
220. CBeats
I noticed that few people have complained about the complete lack of Elayne in this book. I wonder why...? I was frankly fine without a single point of view from her. Completely fine.
Leigh, your review was great.
This book was
a) a million times better than any of the other WoT books and
b) a billion times better than any other book I have ever read.

Top moments:

-Egwene saying "Coward!" to Elaida.

-the metal clicking around Rand's neck

-him discovering a strange, alien power, something other than the One Power

-Egwene opening the door and seeing Verin

-Verin admitting to being Black Ajah

-Sheriam's chapter's beginning where it is revealed she is Black Ajah

-Egwene standing at the hole in the tower with the angreal, blasting fire at the to'raken

-Tuon declaring "I am the Empress"



baahhhh there are other ones too but I just can't think of them.

True, Mat's chapters were a little odd. I'm also slightly thrown off by Perrin's lack of clarity with Faile, as well as Cadsuane's role for the rest of the series. She is not as significant or legendary to me as a reader as she used to be.

Aviendha's chapters were pretty good, if a little repetitive. I look forward to hearing more about her trip to Rhuidean.
Overall an incredible, amazing story.

ps - was anyone else surprised at how thick it actually was? I certainly was...
Wilson Grooms
221. brinoch
leighdb @194:

I had the same impression regarding the sword. Pretty clearly that sword is Hawkwing's Justice. There aren't that many specific swords mentioned in the series to begin with, and a stroll through Rand's memory reveals significantly fewer that it could be.

Thinking further about it... I think the sword's lineage will be fairly critical to the eventual truce between the Seanchan and the remainder of Randland. In fact, spinning the thought further, it may very well be that the line "the future teeters on the edge of a blade" refers to Justice, possession of Justice, or Rand giving Tuon/Fortuona the blade as part of the truce.

Given their Hawkwing ancestor worship, I think they would value that blade *very* highly.
Wilson Grooms
222. Bagsy
Just finished the book and I can honestly say it was worth waiting for. It was fast paced and so much happened it reminded me of the earlier books in the series. I loved Egwene in this book where before in the series I have found her annoying. The Verin reveal was awesome. All in all I have to say thankyou Brandon Sanderson and keep up the good work.
Wilson Grooms
223. Be'Lal
1. Did Perrin ever explain why he didn't send an A-mail to ask for help Traveling to wherever he's going? Now that Rand has actually started sending messengers/communicating/moving his forces it feels more artificial that Perrin doesn't. I suppose he might still think his mission is supposed to be Deep Undercover (dumb as that would be for him to think given all that's happened), but why wouldn't Rand have at least tried to check up on him by now?

2. How did Elza know she'd been Compulsed? Easy answer is that Shadar Haran could tell (though Verin in PoD: Deceptive Appearances thinks it takes impressive Delving to tell, SH could conceivably have that skill). A more interesting answer is that Verin had to report it somehow. Given the whole still being alive thing, it's unlikely that she reported it unless she did it on orders (since her covert Black Ajah Light Ops have to have still been secret unless Alviarin is even more incompentent than Elaida). The clear implication in PoD was that Verin's Compulsion was the proximate cause of all of the TAS DW captives swearing fealty to Rand. Was that the Shadow's goal? If so, why? To increase chaos (as both TAS and SAS freak out at it)? To get Rand to trust more BA? Do these goals warrant giving Rand so many more AS? Note, ironically, the number of Dragonsworn AS at the Cleansing. I find this interesting because the appearances in the PoD prologue title are even more deceiving if Verin is directly working for the Shadow.

3. Related query: Did Ishy order her to follow the Hunting party? Note that she directly lied then, and the discrepency was noticed later (though no one followed up). Deliberate? Why?

4. And why the field trip to the 2R? Related to the FS who sent Slayer after Fain? Or a low-level BA able to sneak off and help a ta'veren friend without getting caught?

5. Re: Gawyn rescuing Egwene. It could be that one of the Seanchan Shadow Assassin types would have gotten her had she stayed. She had just been the focal point of the only effective resistence, while wielding the supersangreal. At the point of the Rescue she had just sent everyone away and was on the edge of collapse--an extremely easy target. If Gawyn et al. hadn't come, it's easy to picture a Shadow Assassin making it to her in the confusion and hitting her with one of the poison dart things. Which would work well for the Seanchan. And she could have been easy prey for Mesaana, for that matter, who could have been doing her own damage control in the aftermath of the attack, and who sounded ready to be rid of Eggy last we heard from her.

6. Largely approve of the hasty executions of the BA, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't have been worth pumping at least a few of them for more info--DF contacts, past BA plans, etc. And it would have been easier to break them given that Eggy knows how to still them to break the Oaths, then Heal them back to make them reswear Oaths of obedience. (Though that could uncover Siuan. Who Eggy hates right now, so not really an objection. Leanne, though. . .). Or there's the a'dam solution: I've long thought that once Elayne figured out how to make a'dam that BA would be more useful fighting for the Light at TG. At least it could form a point of compromise for the Seanchan ('we'll trade you these ten AS for those ten. . .').

7. Who was Maseema's FS controller? We know Arangar has impersonated someone before, but she was busy being dead during a lot of Maseema's crazy antics in TFoH. Though it's possible he was crazy on his own then, given that that also predated Operation: Let the Lord of Chaos Rule for the Dark.
Wilson Grooms
224. EarthandIce
All I can say is WOW! There have been comments dealing with the pre-release Prologue, 1st and 2nd chapters not sounding like Jordan, but I have to say when I read the prologue, it was like I was in Randland looking at the clouds. I for one could not tell where Jordan left off and Sanderson picked up. Awesome, and then some. Faile was so much less irritating, and we got to see almost all of the main characters. So much going on that I know I will re-read it several times.
William Fettes
225. Wolfmage
douglasm @ 58
2) Someone (again, Egwene) actually went and used some of that giant stockpile of *greal the White Tower has.

The only thing that had me pause a bit in relation to Egwene’s sa’angreal usage was how it could work with her forkroot-induced limitations. We know that angreal and sa’angreal don’t give a fixed amount of power to any user; they amplify your inherent ability. But Egwene holds the wand herself; she doesn’t give it to another another novice who can use it alone and draw through them. Given how little she could channel, I’m not sure Egwene should even been able to use it at all.

Of course, she was already linked at that stage, and using the power of the circle through the wand, but that in itself made me wonder how consistent it was with past circles that we’ve seen that use angreals. In WH, for example, I got the impression that Jahar needed to draw through Callandor before the circle formed so that Elza could use it in the circle. Moreover, Jahar had to be the one holding Callandor for Elza to draw through him into it. Obviously that’s saidar versus saidin, but the principle is the same. If we follow the logic of Egwene's novice circle, then it seems that the circle could have linked without channelling aids, and then Elza herself could have picked up Callandor and added its power to the circle.

I got a similar individual-usage impression from the Bowl of the Winds circle. For example, we know that Nynaeve and co joined the circle with their individual angreals one-by-one, rather than circle adding them after the fact. So is there a difference between this and a circle head simply picking up an angreal and using it with the power of the circle as whole after it is formed? It seems there should be. But that begs another question about all-saidar circles. If you can put the whole circle’s power through an angreal, then surely the scalability of angreal-power means you would be wasting massive amounts of power if you configure the circle so that each individual joins the circle with their individual angreals. But that is exactly how most circles we've seen use angreals! So it’s a bit of a can of worms.
Sam Mickel
226. Samadai
@223
She doesn't have to still them to break the oaths all she has to do is make them forswear all oaths that they have taken before. That is what the BA hunters did to the sitter Talene in tPoD's. Then all shewould have to do is make them swear the 3 oaths again along with a 4th oath that they will never take another oath from anyone ever again.
Wilson Grooms
227. David DeLaney
FSS@196 - ... ... foreshadowed _before the first part of the main book even starts_. Is there any wonder why we wuv this series?

After some thought (but before my first reread, so I may be missing bits), I think I can put a finger on at least a little of why Mat seemed "off". Others have noted that we saw more of him from the external view, and a lot of Mat's 'voice' has always been from his internal monologues.

Specifically, in part, the "mistakenly self-centered" aspect of them; he's always thinking to himself of how stuff will affect _him_, and how he doesn't want to do such-and-such, and just wants to get away, and hates being manipulated, especially by wimminz ... but then the actions he TAKES belie that. "I am no bloody hero!" he thinks, just before leaping into battle, or dashing into that metaphorical burning house. "This knowledge stuffed in my head, it's awesome, but I wanted _my_ memories, and if I actually try to use it it's gonna fail disastrously", just before strategically outmaneuvering an opposing force. Etc etc. He's the trickster / rogue archetype; a basic underpinning of how he thinks of himself is that it's _not his fault_ that Stuff is happening. Even when it's his actions that precipitate it or guide it.

Certainly, getting married could distract him some - but he didn't have all that much time to settle into BEING married, or to have to adjust to the new situation with Tuon right there. Some of the change could be due to postnuptial shock, sure ... but some of it seems to be from not getting a good handle on what Mat's built his self-image around through the rest of the series. He's not a broad-comedy/slapstick guy at base; he's a self-deprecating-humor / incongrity-between-thought-and-action guy. And if we don't see much of his inner monologue, a lot of that gets lost; there's no contrast between thought and action to play off of. As others have noted, I hope Brandon levels up some in depicting him in the next two books.

(He may well be realizing he's not going to be able to get away from what the Pattern wants him to do. But ... I don't see him as ACCEPTING that internally, rather as continually grumbling about it and mentally muttering about not being able to escape his Fate/Destiny/Doomity Doom Doom. Odin wasn't a comedic character, after all, though Loki was in places.)

--Dave
Wilson Grooms
228. Be'Lal
@226:

But the BA Hunters only could get the captured BA to forswear the Dark Oaths by torturing them for an extended period of time. (Arguably, in light of Verin's revelations, the BA Hunters had to torture a BA to the point where either she felt as if her death was imminent or to where she was too crazy to know what she was doing, or else the BA in question would be physically unable to forswear herself because to do so would be to reveal herself. Thus, arguably, even if Eggy had the OR she couldn't have helped Verin, because Verin couldn't have forsworn herself deliberately without expecting to die immediately thereafter). So using the Torture Terangreal to break 200(!) BA at once wouldn't really have been time-efficient compared to still->Heal->swear-or-die. Though, come to think of it, many AS may not have the stomach for doing it that way either.

Doing it that way would have also had the side effect of leaving the BA in question weaker than before (regardless of whether the weakness was due to same-gender healing or because Nyn's method is inferior to Flinn's) and thus less of a risk should she escape somehow.
Wilson Grooms
229. D. S. Crankshaw
Okay, so I got my complaints about Mat in, so what did I think overall? Well, if we ignore the Mat characterization complaints, I liked it. The raid on the Tower was well-written, and Egwene did quite well. I also liked the confrontation between Rand and Tuon. I didn't see how either could back down, which just emphasizes how necessary Mat is in making peace between them. Did anyone else notice how the prophecy at the end is from the Seanchan version of the Cycle? The assumption's pretty much been that the Seanchan's version is corrupted, but I wonder if it's not that simple--they have some things right that the mainland doesn't, and vice versa.

One thing I noticed is that there were a lot more Black Ajah than I expected. I would have pegged the number around 100, and even that was kind of high. If the White Tower only has a thousand Aes Sedai (which was just Rand's and Taim's estimate), that's fully a fifth of them. They likely outnumber any of the legitimate Ajahs. Which makes you wonder--how many of the Black Tower are Darkfriends? I'd say there's a good chance that Taim is, and his closest followers. And since he's had pretty much free reign over the Black Tower, how many has he recruited? How many might he have turned against their will? When that comes to a head, it's going to be bloody. I have a feeling that the missing Aes Sedai have run afoul of the Darkfriends at the Black Tower, and it looks like Egwene has plans to follow up on it.
john mullen
230. johntheirishmongol
I wasn't able to get the book til last tues but I was on the road driving and couldnt read it it though it was frustratingly near to me. But I did get to read it and I think that overall it was amazing.

Verin, I will miss dearly. She may have been black but she was never evil. She is probably the smartest character in the entire series

All the way thru the book I kept wondering when some of the Cad, Ny, and the others were going to get a clue about finding a way to work with Rand instead of trying to manage him. That sequence with him at the end finding himself again was great.

I also thought that the Egwene storyline was great and the battle with the Seanchean was very well done. So many BA surprised me. As did the idea of her executing them all. I now think that finding Mesaana is pretty simple. It has to be Laras. She tried to get rid of Egwene when she realized that Eg was the force behind the ajahs starting to work together. Her excuse is very lame.

I didn't have an issue with how Mat was written, especially since I thought a lot of it was because he was a newly married guy separated from his wife, who is in danger all the time. I didn't think of the town as being full of zombies as much as it was some kind of bubble of evil issue, and there were dead I drising in the previous book so it was not the first instance.

Did Perrin do anything? Just maybe a little change of attitude but nothing I got a handle on.

I was really hoping for Tower of Ghenji but I suppose I can wait one more year...grrrrrrrrrr

So Leigh, when do you pick up the rereads again????
Sam
231. bluecansam
Too many comments to speak to directly, so I’ll just give my initial comments.

First off, if I have to read the lines, “So and so gritted his/her teeth,” or, “So and so ground his/her teeth,” in book 13, I’ll go nuts.

I obviously didn’t expect Brandon Sanderson to get everything exactly right, or to imitate RJ’s voice, but I do feel like some of the repeated lines, or slightly illogical statements were due more to poor editing than any writing flaws. At the pace Brandon Sanderson writes, editors are just that much more important.

But those are technical problems, which, for the most part, can be ignored for the greater story-arc (I say as I grind my teeth).

If I were to point to a character I felt was the most off, I’d have to name Mat. I found his chapters reading as more comical relief and smacking of too much buffoonery than Mat chapters normally have. For example, the end of the night of the dreaming zombie village chapter really bothered me. I didn’t feel that making jokes after such a terrifying experience was true to the voice and spirit of Mat chapters of previous installments.

In general, I felt like BS exaggerated Mat’s flaws as a character to try and make sure we, the reader, would think, “Oh! That’s definitely the Mat I know.” The heavy-handed way Mat was represented made me really respect the subtlety RJ used when writing Mat and the people who follow him. As Leigh with Mat in the first two books of WoT, I just wanted to smack him around in TGS.

I would suspect that Rand’s character likely followed the character arc RJ intended. Rand is definitely the main thread of the entire series, and while RJ loved all his characters equally, I’ve heard interviews that lead me to believe that RJ, himself, identified most with Rand. I think, out of all the characters, Rand’s story would likely have been the strictest in RJ’s notes. Or maybe that’s just me and my silly feelings. Even though Rand is a frustrating character, an ass and not really all that likable in the later books, I like that his character is not static. I like that I don’t like him. His character is the one I most identify with and has been my favorite character since book one. Which leads me to the statement; if I were to name the character BS was spot on with, I’d say Rand.

I love Nynaeve, too. Always and forever.
William Fettes
232. Wolfmage
PeteP @ 207

"He does not need to ask permission" -- a classic display of why Eg is still being stupid toward Rand and why Siuan is awesome."

Yeah, her outrage at was over the top. Though she was at least somewhat mollified by Rand's sending other Ashaman to be bonded, there’s an underlying sexist presumption that bonding should only work one way, and that Rand is to blame for everything the Ashaman do. They’re lucking the BT didn’t execute all of them.
--
Having now had some more time to think about it, I do have a few niggles about Egwene in the book notwithstanding that she has soared high in my affections. For example, in addition to the Ashaman comment, I thought it was a quite poor to let stand that Red’s comment that men generally aren’t to be trusted at the end. She had no need to let it stand for the moment – it was baseless nonsense.

Moreover, I thought she was a bit too magnanimous with the TAS who were far more to blame for letting Elaida disband the Blue and run the Tower into the ground, than whatever alleged wound to the spirit of the Tower that Egwene thinks the rebels did. Indeed, she was rather drunk on the whole Tower conceit that it is the centre of the universe that I began to lose the sense of her anology that the Tower was just the one spot on the floor she could start cleaning. Whilst I applaud her decision to appoint Silviana as Keeper and acknowledge a new broader purpose for the Reds, she practically bent over backwards to assuage bruised egos. I doubt so much was necessary to win over the various factions and form a unity leadership. I'm not suggesting a night of the long knives or penances or whatever - just being a bit less belaboured about the sins of the rebels.

Also, did anyone else think she seriously mistreated Siuan? I mean, giving her the rough side of her tongue was warranted, but the fact is Egwene was wrong that the rescue ruined her plans. Her comment that Siuan had lost her trust and confidence was ridiculous. Egwene certainly earned her position by her own lights in the end, but she would be nowhere without Siuan’s teaching and constant guidance, and her whole agenda as a captive in the Tower would be impossible without Siuan doing her guerrilla politics magic to keep her position viable. If there is one person Egwene is indebted to for her position it is Siuan – yet Egwene uses kid gloves for the idiot Aes Sedai and gives Siuan the cold shoulder. If there was no intervening invasion and Siuan just acted unilaterallty / precipitously it might be different - but the last thing Siuan saw was Egwene getting torn out of TAR and then the Seanchan attack happened. She hardly defied the spirit of her commitment to Egwene.
Helen Peters
233. Helen
OK, finished at 1am this morning, caught up with the comments, now I have niggles to question you with.

Verin being black ajah. This was the one part that I had to stop and go inform hubby that 'we knew she was dodgy, but I never expected that'. Needless to say he looked at me as though I were potty. But the question is why is she black ajah. She said she was given the choice between swearing and dying. So have we just found our 13x2 convert? And that's why she sought them out to betray, because she was turned against her will? She's old enough that she'd had the shawl for a fair while before joining the BA if that happened to start the 70 year plan (so 70 years ago).
Second related question: How old was Sheriam (yes I know, totally rude to be talking of AS age), I've a feeling that she's a contemporary of Mo and Siuan, which would make her too young to be one of the 13 that turned Verin - and someone correct me here if not?

I also thought Avi was being awfully slow in the realisation of her punishments (and was mentally shouting at her all the way through) but thinking about it, if she'd been faster we'd not have had the tar-man and the great waterspout (which I loved).

I hated Semi being so thick. Her POV - the shield was gone, she could sense saidar, she went to embrace the source, no those so called AS would feel her do so - well hang on Semi, if they can feel you embrace the source then surely they'd have realised by now that their shield is down, they're dead! (that was my mental shout) but as RobM (I think) said earlier, I was 1/3 right:)

Who wants to bet that the reason Rand will know the Amyrlin's wrath is not coz he balefired Graendal but because he made the offer of bonding Ash'aman, Eg sent some to the black tower and they've been killed/captured/stilled/bonded themselves.
F Shelley
234. FSS
2 more things:

Who thinks Rand/Mat/Perrin's Magical Kaleidoscope of Love will work when Mat goes to the Tower of Ghengei?

How freaked out will Rand be if he sees Moiraine with Mat and Thom?

Oh - and @233, Sheriam was raised after Moiraine and Suian (we learn in New Spring: The Novel).
F Shelley
235. FSS
And...

I think Demandred will be the General in Charge of the Legion of the Dragon.
Wilson Grooms
236. D. S. Crankshaw
Speaking of Nynaeve and Mat, I thought her defense of Mat before Tuon was overdone. It's the only time I thought Nynaeve was off character. Yes, Nynaeve will leap to the defense of any of the Two Rivers folk, especially to the Seanchan, but I just can't see: "one of the finest men you will ever know," "his heart is golden." I don't think she's ever thought of Mat in those terms--she still thinks of him too much as a boy for her to be able to think of him in those terms. I'd expect her to say something like "that man's a trial, but he means well and he keeps his word, which is more than I can say for most," accompanied by a challenging glare.

As for Egwene and her comments on the Asha'man, well, that's certainly annoying, but it's in character. The question to ask, though, is what would Egwene, or any Amyrlin, have done if Rand had sent Asha'man to destroy the White Tower, rather than the other way around. She'd have gentled, and probably executed, the lot of them, of course. Then went to war against the Black Tower, burned it to the ground, and salted the earth it was built on. Could any of them imagine an Amyrlin who'd merely captured and made the Asha'man into Warders (admittedly, against their will and with a compulsion that Egwene doesn't know about yet), then offered to let the Black Tower do the same to an equal number of Aes Sedai? I'd like to see some Aes Sedai, somewhere, acknowledge that the sisters who attacked the Black Tower got off easy. Maybe they could offer a prisoner exchange, you know, if the White Tower had anything to offer in return.
Sam Mickel
237. Samadai
Helen @233

Verin was not 13^2, I think. I believe she was studying the black ajah and got so far in she had no choice to either take the oaths or the Black leaders would just kill her

Sheriam was also around the same age as Moraine and Siuan.

I would guess within a decade
William Fettes
238. Wolfmage
D. S. Crankshaw @ 236

Well said. There's no way they would simply bond them and then offer a counter-bond arrangement as a gesture of goodwill.
Wilson Grooms
239. mikauk
OH SNAP

@196 Prophecy from TEOTW


And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
(from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

Remember when Egwene does her need walk and she ends up in a Tinker camp? TEH SONG, WE IS GOIN' TO FIND IT!

Also, re: "The Power winked out", I immediately assumed that Rand had just accidentally turned off the True Source, but that can't possibly be it.
Wilson Grooms
240. mikauk
The part that is supposed to be bolded, but isn't because clearly I don't understand "bbCode", is the line about "Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land".
Stacey
241. Poapst
AMAZING. That's all I have to say.
PS> Any theories up and running yet on Callandor's magic number of 3 importance yet? I've heard some about using the TP, Saidin and Saidar together through it to seal the DO, something about Rand, Nyna and Eg to run wild, blending between Elayne, Avi and Min to create a new Ilyena and many more.
Thoughts?
Stacey
242. Poapst
@ Mikauk
Ya. Tinker Song finding = Epic. Betcha Moiraine will have some clues for Rand when she gets back from Finland (and Avi once she gets back from her waste test)
GAH WHY ISN'T TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT OUT YET?!?!
F Shelley
243. FSS
And I've been thinking Avienda would take Rand as Gai'shain and teach him to sing...
Wilson Grooms
244. Norry
As someone who's been a huge Egs fan since she slinged that crow WAAAY back in TEotW, this book was completely full of win. Happily, the major Egs scenes played out almost exactly as I'd predicted them (though the setbacks were a bit surprising) so yay.

The saddest scene for me in the book is where Sarene figures out that Egs has the novices fighting. Although an excellent scene, the fact that the novices were fighting saddened me greatly.
Wilson Grooms
245. Planeswalker
@230,

w0w, i never thought of that... Mesaana = Laras!!!
good guess man!
Wilson Grooms
246. Cyarger
Legends is my favorite chapter! Mat writig back story? Awesomeness!
matt
247. mattyh
aaack i just thought of something dreadful! myrelle still holds lan's bond, and she's MIA at the black tower, noooo. poor nynaeve :(
Wilson Grooms
248. sps49
Semi was set up by the DO to fail while putting Rand in desparate straits. Using the TP has to be the DO trying to seduce Rand to the Dark Side. It came close to working, and it still might. Nobody in the story voiced it, but he was definitely turning into the Great Lord. I mean, the Dark One. And what kind of victory would that be?

He spent way to much time "holding: the TP, even if he didn't use it. I worry about the next book, although maybe everyone will fucking finally stay on track.

Who else wants to smack Cadsuane? And loves Min and Nynaeve for realizing that he needs help, not control, like Moiraine finally realized?


I do believe Graendal is gone, which means someone else will take credit for Asmodean.

Does Tuon not believe she can be taught to channel? She knows, right?

The title of the last chapter took the suspense away, because I remembered the veins from the triple bonding scene. Still a good chapter, though! Blowing up the Chedan Kal suprised me. I thought he might actually kill the DO with it.

I have to go for now, but I'll be back to read the rest of the comments.

And why can't I login?
j p
249. sps49
Oh- and Laras definitely gave of an Evil vibe here.

Still want to smack Cads.
Wilson Grooms
250. DMM
@235 FSS

I think Demandred might be King Roedran of Murandy.

He said he had a throne. Murandy is basically the only country left that isn't bent to Rand or the Seanchan, and whose ruler we haven't met.
Wilson Grooms
251. tanis0
Too. Many. Comments. I don't have time to read them all yet, but here are some thoughts of mine.

Rand's sword: Most likely Hawkwing's. It will probably come up in the next book with the Seanchan arc now that Rand might be willing to bow his head a little.

Balefire et. al: You know good and well that every person there was subjected to horrific Compulsion and was beyond salvation. Granted, removing their chance at rebirth was a bit much, but remember that Rand considered not having to be reborn a mercy until the very end of the book. Remember, crazy people don't act at random -- they act according to very specific rules that sane people know to be fallacious.

My new favorite character (in any series / novel ever): Verin. She was always 2-3 on my list (following Mat and / or Rand, depending on the point in the story -- I like anti-heroes, if ya' can't tell. Min too btw, but not until she becomes all bookish), and I was one of the ones that was 90% sure she was a BA double agent working for the light. Hey, if you have enough crack-brained theories, you have to be right once in a while. PS. I knew that Moria was BA because NOBODY who had Loial go by Mr. Underhill when traveling incognito would make a non-evil character named Moria.

Best scene: Verin + Egwene. Next probably Egwene + Elaida 2 (I wrote my first fan letter EVER after reading that scene), then Aviendha becoming a Wise One. I think I teared up more than Leigh did. Wow. *hides*

On Egwene + Elaida 2: Remember that Elaida isn't used to anyone opposing here for quite some time. Also, Egwene has developed a presence that is probably only 2nd to Rand's in the world. It's entirely reasonable that Elaida is too stunned to shut her up right away. Not to mention she doesn't believe for a second that Egwene will out-argue her.

On "The 3 will be as 1": Probably refers to either Aviendha / Min / Elayne or Rand / LTT / Moridin. Since the passage is related to Callandor, I'm inclined to believe the former.

Best quote: "'How do you fight someone smarter than yourself?' Rand whispered. 'The answer is simple. You make her think that you are sitting down across the table from her, ready to play her game. Then you punch her in the face as hard as you can.'" Hahaha! Priceless. I think that's better than tickling an Aes Sedai under the chin. :D
Wilson Grooms
252. TheAndy
Thought: Has anyone ever wondered about the reverse Trinity of team Superfade?

Dark One - reverse God
Moridin - scary Jesus
Shadar Haran - holy spirit

12 dark apostles, rising from the dead, that sort of thing. Something to consider. I really should sleep now.

Also does anyone else ever pity Elaida? I've always thought she was driven inFain.

And also: why zombies? Why?
Wilson Grooms
253. Dholton
Some more random thoughts:

Did anybody notice the throwaway mention that Beldeine bonding Karldin!? The sourpuss that went with Loial to the steddings? Sheesh!

I suspect that the Seanchan that is going to help Egwene is going to be one of the Assassins or whatever they're called. There are still four unaccounted for after all.

It just occurred to me to ask: Is Rand integrating LTT the beginning of a trend to get rid of all the other voices in his head? Only one, two...five more voices to go!
Heidi Byrd
254. sweetlilflower
Avi had to be in this book so much to show her transition from being an action warrior to being a thinking warrior.
Wilson Grooms
255. Dholton
@251 amongst others

Does BFing really prevent rebirth in the normal Wheel turning sense? I seem to remember reading something RJ said that while the temporal discontinuity of BFing prevents the DO from resurrecting a person, the soul itself is not lost,and can still be reborn thru the Turning of the Wheel of Time.
Heidi Byrd
256. sweetlilflower
What do you think of Talmanes being Demandred?
Heidi Byrd
257. sweetlilflower
@255

I think you are right, it only keeps the DO from snatching the soul
Wilson Grooms
258. thewindrose
First thoughts on this effort - way to go Brandon and Team Jordan. I was back in Randland, and what a page turner!

A second go through, along with comments will bring more in depth thoughts, but for right now...
I thought Rand quite clever to send Ramshalan to Graendal's, and use him as a gauge. We have been hammered over the head about how heavily Graendal uses Compulsion,and that unwinding one of her weavings leaves a drooling idiot who dies shortly after, - Kerb being a good timely example.
Shocked at the Semirhage set-up. DO definitly wants Rand using the TP and balefiring.
With the bit of distancing we have between Min and Rand now, and Avi all grown-up into her Wiseone role, I see her helping Rand coming back to a more relateable hero for us.(Not to mention a tie up of the 4/babes prophecy.)

I don't see a lot of comments on this:Egwene shook her head. "It just occurred to me. This is what it must have been like for Rand. No, worse. The stories say he was locked in a box smaller than my cell. At least I can spend part of the evenings chatting with you. He had nobody. He was without the belief that his beatings meant something."
She feels a connection with him over this, and I beleive it will be one of the things that help them to start working together.

So, while I was excited that some people were actually communicating wit each other, the biggie - trust and communiation between genders- has not happened yet. And this will need to happen in ToM or TG will not end well.

Scenes that tugged at my heart - Rand staring into Mins eyes as Semi forces him to choke her(why don't her bruises go away with the balefiring?) The night Faile and crew remember their protectors - "we have great toh to them. I don't think it can be repaid. But we can remember them."
Mat and Thom, starting to joke like before(before Thom became an SG sidekick - please be bact to MOA status!!!) Verin, who could tell no one for 70+ year what was up, except to Tomas, finally able to tell Egwene. Your soul is of a pure white,Verin," Egwene said softly. "Like the Light itself."

Lots to think on, I look forward to discussing with you all:)
Wilson Grooms
259. tanis0
@255: Possibly. I don't really know. I think it's irrelevant to the current discussion anyway. Rand has only just found out that Balefire prevents the DO from returning someone to life. He's already heard that it rips your thread from the pattern. I think it's safe to think he'd suspect that they couldn't be reborn, regardless of the truth.

On a side note, let me advance a theory. We'll see Verin again in one of 3 ways.

1) Tortured by the DO, ala Keri al'Thor,
2) Sheltered in the hand of the creator, whatever that means, or
3) Tied to the wheel, either in TAR or when the horn blows. I'm hoping for this one. :D
Wilson Grooms
260. Baaneral
First, I want to say WooHoo Leigh! I've never read one of your reviews, but after this I will be keeping an eye on you. Anyone throws out that many cartoon references in one review is someone I want to read more of.

Now, to the book.....

Yeeha! is all I can say. I started it Tuesday afternoon and finished it Wednesday night. THEN I ate something and went to sleep. What a ride.

I loved the whole thing, beginning to end. I didn't see any differences in writing styles, I was too absorbed in the story. Of course, having spent all day today reading the blog, now I can look back and say, yeah, maybe Mat was a bit off, but not so much as Tuon, not Fortuona yet, wishing she had her Matrim. Where'd that come from?

The Graendal trick, that was nice. And yes, I think she's toast. And I think the DO planned it that way. First he tells Semirhage she was a bad girl. The fact that he sent Shaidar Haran to tell her was a bad omen for her. So when she does as she was told, the DO gave Rand a lil' taste of the big bad mojo as her punishment. Now, as planned, he's a little off his rocker and goes after Graendal, nearly taking out the pattern as well, just as the DO wants. Probably assumed Rand would keep spiraling from there. Was probably down in his hole chuckling right up until Rand had his moment on the mountain. Bummer for him. But he's planted that little seed of the TP, so we'll have to see if that takes root.

As for Egwene, I was a little sick of her until she was captured. The way she came out of her shell was great. No "Pardon me," just BOOM! I liked the way the whole split tower/black ajah thing came together. And Elaida, well, she Was warned... Hopefully we will get to see her in passing at TG, as someone recognises her body on the end of a leash or something.

One thought about leashes, there was a mention about the marath'damane this side of the ocean not being able to be used as weapons. Obviously oaths are stronger than the a'dam. But what about the captured BA's? This may be a BAD THING.

I loved everything about how Rand went down and finally came back, but I'm seeing a lot in this blog about his bond to Moridin. I'm pretty sure that started back in Shadar Logoth, when Rand was chasing Sammael. The third man was probably Moridin, actually helping Rand get rid of Sammael so he could be Na'Bleis(However it's spelled). But our heroes hadn't seen Ghostbusters, so they didn't know that Crossing The Streams (Balefire) was BAD. So now those two are linked, and maybe there's some personality leakage going both ways, which would explain why Moridin seemed so tired of the whole thing when he and Rand had their little chat this time round.

I was disappointed that I have to wait another year for Mat to rescue Moiraine, although it is more Thom's deal. I won't be surprised if Thom and Moiraine end up getting together. Now that we've seen Siuan and Gareth get together, why not? and lets put together Morgase with Tallanvor. And Tam, well, think about it. He's an OLDER guy, so he's not likely to end up with Berelain or Morgase....But Lini? Hmmmmm. SHE'd know a little about the ways of kings and queens, no? Bet noone's thought of that!


One other thing. I think Olver is a Forsaken, but not which one, and I'm fairly certain Taim is Demandred. Logain's glory will come from defeating him and saving the Black Tower from ruin.

That's all for me, but Favorite Scene, it's a toss-up

Verin's Finale or Rand playing poker with Graendal

Have fun, see ya next year ;)
Pete Pratt
261. PeteP
Wolfmage @232 -- I think it hit it straight on with Eg's overreaction with Siuan, but I think Eg did it for other reasons, using the rescue as an excuse.

Now that Eg has the Tower whole and has been trained by Siuan, Eg does not need Siuan (master of deceipt and plots that she is) close to her. In fact, Eg wants her as far away as possible in order to limit Siuan's manipulation of her.

It reminded me of Eg's abuse of Nyn when Eg was trying to cover up for her lies and deceipt. As much as Eg improves, the more she still has the very bad tendencies.
Rick
262. blitz23_ca
THE stand out novel of the series, thus far. Sanderson steps up to the plate and seamlessly weaves a masterpiece, virtually without flaw. To be able to produce such an exquisite literary delight, while knowing it would be subjected to a level of scrutiny heresofar unheard of, quite simply astounds me.

Bravo, Brandon! I believe that in one giant, tantalizing and scintillating step, you've done more to banish any doubts from the minds of pessimistic naysayers and doubters than I would have thought possible. I eagerly await your next two installments of this fantastic journey we call The Wheel Of Time. I have no doubt in your ability to deliver a stunningly powerful and epic climax to this much beloved fantasy saga.
Congratulations, Mr. Sanderson. Never for a second doubt your ability to continue on and honor Mr. Jordan's legacy. He couldn't help but be proud of you, I'm sure. Take care and good luck!
David Scotton
263. Kaxon
Well, at this point it seems like there's way too much for me to reply to in this thread, but I'll just post a couple thoughts.

Overall, I liked the book a lot. There were a few points that dragged, but overall the pacing was a lot better than books 8-10, and maybe better than 5,7, and 11 as well. Rand did bother me a lot this book, but he was obviously supposed to, and the ending kind of redeemed that for me.

I actually absolutely loved the ending, I think it ranks up there with LOC and TGH as one of my favorite endings in the series (Especially taken as a while with the climax to the Tower war). I think I can understand some disappointment that there wasn't any asskicking involved, but in my opinion this ending was exactly what this book needed. Rand's biggest problems throughout the whole book were his anger and violence, which aren't things you can beat by fighting. His biggest enemy in this book was himself, and he had to overcome that to finish the arc of the book. Also, after that scene I don't think it's remotely open for debate that Lews Therin was part of Rand all along. It was stated flat out.

Mat to me definitely did not seem like the same character as before - but so far he hasn't done anything that annoyed me. I'm hoping Sanderson will manage to find his voice a little better next book. I guess his actions weren't out of character this time, but his voice definitely sounded wrong to me.

Egwene: definitely the highlight of the book, for the second volume in a row. Pretty much everything she did was awesome. Not much more to say about that. Verin's sacrifice was great too, but man - that chapter was probably the biggest example of Sanderson just dumping things on the table in a way Jordan never would have done. I think Jordan probably would have written the reveal more skillfully, but on the other hand the "dump it on the table" approach is pretty needed at this point in the series, so I can't really complain.

- David
David Scotton
264. Kaxon
Also, re: the ending...

For a minute I seriously thought Rand was going to kill himself on Dragonmount, or possibly live but break the Wheel of Time. The thought even crossed my mind that the splitting the book announcement might have been a ruse to make the suddenness of the ending a surprise. That might be a testament to my gullibility but I think it also says something about how well that scene was written.
Wilson Grooms
265. cthedges
Pretty keen to see the fallout from the Rand and Seanchan meeting. Remembering his answer from the Finns, and also the fact he's seemed to regain his sanity, I can't see how a direct assault could achieve the peace he needs. Perhaps the revelation sul'dam can channel will work? That would definetely make me laugh!

Then again, Mat may just sit down and use his ta'veren to talk sense to Tuon(I forget her new name in the book). I can't see the Seanchan being disregarded from here on. I personally believe they will have a major role in the Last Battle, as from all reports there seem to be A LOT of trollocs etc in the Blight. I think their military prowess will be a help to the Light if they can be persuaded to fight. Then again Egwene will probably rage and not allow it so I guess we'll just wait and see!
Wilson Grooms
266. tanis0
cthedges @ 265:

In Tuon's POV, she says that the empire is supposed to fight (and defeat) the DO's forces and THEN release the DR to fight the DO. Sounds stupid, but that seems to be what they believe. So, I don't think anyone could keep the Seanchan from TG without ignoring TG altogether in order to stop them. Or using the Chodal Kal to eradicate them of course, but that seems unlikely now. The trick will be in coordinating the two forces in such a way that they can actually get some meaningful strategy in place. Otherwise, Rand will die and / or the DO will win, as per the Finn's answer.
Sam
267. bluecansam
263: Kaxon

I completely agree with you. I can understand how Leigh would feel awkward about the end of the book basically being Rand/LTT talking Rand down from the edge, but Rand has always, always been his own worst enemy. "Talking," always does feel a bit, I don't know, boring? heavy-handed? Not entirely sure what, but I do understand how one could feel like it was a gob of exposition. However, I think Brandon Sanderson tried his hardest to externalize that conflict as he could. I particularly like the part when Rand was struggling to his feet to destroy the Sean Chan, but couldn't because of the expressions on the faces of the people trying to help him, "So concerned." I really can't see how else Rand could have resolved his internal struggle save through essentially talking to himself and the Creator.

Leigh was also disappointed how the Sean Chan super shadow spies were treated. Actually, for me, the fact they really weren't addressed after the attempt on Siuan's life makes me feel extremely apprehensive for the WT next book. Who will they kill? How will they undermine Egwene? Will they ever manage to do anything truly terrible?

And about the spanking scene in this book, I would have expected that situation to actually be a scene in which Leigh would approve. The spanking was meant to demean, humiliate, and make someone feel like they were less, all the problems Leigh had with the previous situations, only this time, rather than the object of the spanking being someone the spanker is supposed to respect and love, the spanker is trying to show just how much she does disrespect the spanked. Most effective. It's sad that during the entire scene, I couldn't help thinking, "I wonder what Leigh is going to write about this."
j p
268. sps49
Maybe it's fortunate for me that I haven't read any of Sanderson's books yet. I still plan to, but if this has saved me from being distracted or taken out of the story then I may have dodged a bullet. As it was, I felt Mat was still rattled by his marriage (and lack of nookie afterward); I had no problems. Well, except if Moiraine or Nynaeve had been there, someone would have tried harder to solve Groundhog Day Town's problem.

kab1 @98- I think the TP was skewing Rand's ta'veren events, but we will see. I also think the Domani would have cheered his departure even if they knew the food had spoiled. Hopefully more Sea Folk ships are enroute.

And everyone, I can't see the DO allowing Rand to use the TP against him. Even if it was via Moridin (which I don't agree with), he would simply cut Moridin off.

I was very worried about Rand, but the Egwene arc

Kicked

Ass


Upon reflection, I don't think Laras is Mesaana; she would have vaporized Egwene when she refused to leave. But I don't trust her anymore. Her actions have met with my approval, but they also have served Chaos.

Lily @106- Tarmon Gaidon is coming. Suit up!

PeteP @110- When Mat said to "saidar it", I was taken back to someone in the Belgariad who suggested one of the sorcerers just "wiggle your fingers" at some problem.

stargazer @118- Elza and Liah were balefired. At least one Draghkar and some Darkhounds, too.

What were the new chapter icons? I noticed the mice, but no others.

Nightbaron @183- The two sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor are the male Choedan Kal and the female Choedan Kal.

So why didn't Verin use the Oath Rod long before this?
Wilson Grooms
269. cthedges
Yeah that is quite true, I just re read the chapter then. I think more what I was getting at is how Rand will get the Seanchan behind his banner. Tuon seems to believe their Prophecies about Rand kneeling before her which I don't believe Rand will do, especially once he re unites with Egwene and finds out about the Seanchan attack. I personally think that sul'dam can learn to channel is too big a secret for it not to be revealed before the end of the series.

Also I dont know how Rand is going to bind the nine moons to him. Is Tuon considered the Daughter of the Nine Moons still now that she is Empress?Unless that is a reference to Mat marrying Tuon and in a roundabout way binding Tuon to him through Mat? I wouldn't think that would be the case but if anyone has any information on it I would love to know!
Wilson Grooms
270. gaylord827
Baaneral@260
Olver a Forsaken?
How did you come up with that?
And no, Taim is not Demandred, as per RJ's own statement. Demandred's decoy character is yet to be shown in any book.
Wilson Grooms
271. Mike G.
@198 FSS, in response to my query about how the money FAQ was answered, said:

@195 - Tower Aes Sedai started beating the Salidar Aes Sedai to the various kingdom's money people to collect their tribute, and the kingdoms wouldn't pay twice.


Hah, cool. I completely missed that as an organized long-term pattern.

When I read it, I thought the payments were short-term shakedowns "for the duration of the emergency".

The long-term nature of the tribute makes a lot more sense.
Wilson Grooms
272. bfg_123
Wolfmage @ 232 - yes she over reacted to Siuan, she needs people that can use their own initiative or she'll be stuck like Perrin with everyone asking her for the smallest detail.

I'm now conflicted about Egwene - on the one hand she was awesome and I'm glad that the splits pretty much over, but she tore into the BA hunters for the 4th oath they forced on the ferrets, she tore into Elaida for thinking about a 4th oath of fealty, but how many AS did she have swear fealty to her? Seems hypocritical to me (please don't hate me)

Also is it possible that Rand will kneel before the Empress? He has after all now stood on his grave and laughed... (I actually liked that scene, possibly one of the few victories he can claim for the light that aren't tainted by dark actions). I also agree with the people who were more shocked by his leaving Arad Doman to starve and be taken over by the Seanchan than his treatment of Hurin and Tam (although tehy both upset me).

Possible solution for the Seanchan, the biggest problem with having peace with them, is their attitude to channelers - what would happen if Tuon/Fortuona channeled, she has the ability if not the spark? Also what happened to all the expected furor over that revelation?

Is there still hope for perrin, it's been ages since I've enjoyed his stories, pretty much since Faile in fact...

Arrrgghhh, so much to think about.

thewindrose @258 - guess Mins bruises din't go away because it was Rand that actually gave them to her, but then that was only cos he was made too... possibly a timey wimey problem there
Wilson Grooms
273. vangiuli
During one of her encounters with Siuan in Tel'aran'rhiod, Egwene finally learns of the Cleansing of saidin. Her reaction can, at best,
be defined as of mild surprise. In that she is
no different than the one the other rebel Aes Sedai had when they knew of it.

I want to ascribe that reaction to them having more present matters in their mind which block them from realizing that with the Cleansing,
something big has changed, something that
puts in discussion the very reason of being
of the White Tower itself, in a way the split
never got even close.

You see, the question is:
Why does the White Tower exist?
or, alternatively:
Which reasons justify its existence?

The Tower, in my opinion, has two major reasons, or pillars, for its being and a minor one.
The minor one is organizing and ordering the female channelers. I call it "minor" because,
as the examples of Windfinders, Aiel Wise Ones, etc. demonstrate, you don't need the White Tower
to avoid the possibility of rogue channelers.

The two pillars of its existence
can be summarized as

a) Tarmon Gai'don and
b) the Taint on saidin.

With Tarmon Gai'don I mean everything necessary to help humankind be prepared to the Last Battle
With the Taint, protecting people from male channelers doomed to getting mad because of the Taint and from anything else however linked to it.

Now we are in a situation where one pillar is gone and the other is just a few months (or weeks) from it being gone too. All that means in a very short
time the Tower will have no reason to exist.
Moreover, one can also consider that the White Tower has profoundly contributed to shaping the Pattern of this Third Age, an Age which will
give soon over to a new Fourth Age and a new Pattern. And in this Pattern there can't be
a place for an institution so deeply linked to another Age.

As I said before, all the Aes Sedai who knows about the Cleansing have had other important matters to deal with, Egwene more than others.
Still, I can't help wondering why no Aes Sedai considers all the implicatons of a cleansed saidin and if we'll see someone ever doing that.

Just imagine the reaction of any Aes Sedai hearing the White Tower has no reason to exist anymore.
Or Egwene when being told she'll be the Last Amyrlin Seat!

Heh.
James Jones
274. jamesedjones
236 D. S. Crankshaw
Speaking of Nynaeve and Mat, I thought her defense of Mat before Tuon was overdone.
Nah. It was typical Nynaeve. She had been forced, in her mind, to apologize to Mat. Then watched as women around her, that she respected, begin to treat Mat with respect. I'm pretty sure she still thinks of Mat as a scoundrel and layabout. But she couldn't let anyone else express that.
Tony Zbaraschuk
275. tonyz
Tuon does know she can channel; it came up with Mat and the Aes Sedai with them earlier. She just refuses to do such a disgusting and criminal thing.
Wilson Grooms
276. billebrooks
I can beat you with one hand tied behind my back.
I can beat you with both hands tied behind my back.
I can beat you with both hands and one foot tied behind my back. I'm limber, and I'm a girl. I'll hop on one foot.
You can have Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Rogers Hornsby, Bob Gibson, and anybody else you want.
I'll take all giggling little girls.

And I can STILL beat you.

I just need to have a few girls swing the bat together, because those bats are heavy, you know?

She didn't beat the big boys, did she? Oh yes she did!

Ok, girls, carry me down to where the bats are. Reach in there, and take out that big invisible bat. Hah hah...I have Teddy Roosevelt's big stick!

Coming to bat, Egwene al'Vere! Girls, you'll have to bat for me! Swing that bat like this.

Here's the pitch: What? Those novices hit it around the Earth 20 times? The umpire awards Egwene's team 20 runs! Ruth, Williams, and the rest walk off the field, knowing they can't win.

Don't like baseball? How about this:
Can I stand on one card? I've got 21. I win. Hardy har har.

Yes, indeed. Egwene al'Vere, beat Tuon's raid with only a few novices helping her, while under the influence of forkroot. Oh, there were others doing their part, but they might as well have not been there.

If Robert Jordan came up with this, wake him up from the dead so that I can shake his hand. If Brandon Sanderson did, I've got two words for ol' Jimmy Rigney: you're fired!

Only one thing really bothered about this whole scene. Why weren't wards placed around the Big Stick? Surely even Elaida, knowing that her enemies have Traveling, couldn't have been so stupid as to ward only the door?

About Rand: Anybody ever read the Berserk manga or seen the anime? There's this iconic "When his ambition crumbles..." moment when Griffith loses his sanity and then becomes evil. Did Moridin slip a behelit in Rand's pocket?

In this hour, in this place, a sacrifice must be offered to achieve your desire of killing the Dark One.

Semirhage? Graendal? No. Not good enough. It must be someone dear to you: Tam al'Thor.
Only then will the last vestiges of your humanity be shed. Wait, your desire is...destroying the world? Uh, I was just kidding...we can call the whole thing off, ok?

Maybe there is something wrong with me, but it didn't bother me when Rand killed Graendal and her coterie of zombies. Was I supposed to feel sorry for people who were effectively already dead? The one guy I was worried about walked away completely unharmed. You do realize that there was really no other way to kill a Forsaken who refuses to stand and fight? That angreal of hers didn't do her much good either.

That scene with Moridin and Rand: I thought gadzooks, Moridin's told the truth, and he's said too much. And then, there was that whole setup where Rand killed Semirhage. Ah, maybe Moridin did lie about Rand coming to him. That's just a little too convenient.
James Jones
277. jamesedjones
251 & 259 tanis0

Here's where they got the info. Balefire does not destroy the soul completely and forever. Here is the link, and the definition of balefire is on page 126. Enjoy!

Edit: It's a 3.5 Mb .pdf file, so you might have to be patient. :)
Helen Peters
278. Helen
New chapter icons: the only one I noticed was the cobwebs, oops, sorry, the age lace disintegrating.
Hang on, no, Cads had a new one also, her hair ornaments, before I'm sure she was birds flying in a square.

Also, back with Verin. Does anyone else think her detour to Mat may not have been his taveren tugging, but the pattern keeping her away from the tower until Egs had all but won and could do some good with the info she was given. If she'd have been given it before she'd not have been able to act on it. How in the world would the SAS be able to keep 70 BA members under surveillance with out tipping them off. They couldn't use the novices or accepted as they'd be fair game to be killed off, and they weren't sure that those 70 were all of them.

Back with Verin and Mat, I'm voting on the letter and instructions being some clue (if not outright instructions) on how to get into the ToG. Verin being BA could have met Cyndane and know where Mo is being held, so could know how to get her out.

Oh and if we're assuming that she knows some of the forsaken could not Asmo have recognised her rooting around in the wine cellar?

And by the way, Asmo wasn't balefired, unless someone made a mistake. We've now had it confirmed that BF stops the DO bringing back the forsaken. RJ said that his method of death and where he died was what was stopping him being resurected. So if he was BFed then where he died should be irrelevant.

Sorry for bringing that up, I'll go away now.
Bye
Wilson Grooms
279. tanis0
jamesedjones @ 277:

Fair enough, but I still contend that Rand himself has every reason to believe that the person cannot be reborn and none to believe that they can.
Wilson Grooms
280. KoRa80L
The book was awesome. I can not wait for the next one. Sanderson did such a good job. I loved the humor. I found myself laughing out loud in the middle of the night. I also found my eyes full of tears. Doesn't a good book do that? Isn't that the point? Nuff Said!
F Shelley
281. FSS
@278 - I don't see how Verin would know that, unless it's a really obscure branch of the prophesies that we don't know about.

I've been thinking the letter will contain detailed instructions on where to find the Horn of Valere.
Wilson Grooms
282. Sluggonics
@99 winterking:

I agree with your theory about Rand needing to use the TP to seal the DO's prison instead of Saidin. Seems to me that's pretty clear what Sanderson is setting up. He actually took the time to have Rand speculate about it, and there must be a reason. The important part about that was needing to have someone actually "touch" the DO in order to seal the prison. It's possible that Rand could end up doing this through Moridin. Or the set-up could be that he's going to do it himself, now that he himself has "accessed" the TP.

Also, the biggest difference between TGS and the books authored by Jordan? The fact that men and women had ACTUAL CONVERSATIONS. People COMMUNICATED in this book. The first truly jarring example of this was when Faile, lying in bed with Perrin, said something about what, exactly, women look for in men-- she actually EXPLAINED female behavior to Perrin. This never would have happened in a million years in Jordan's books.

It's like the characters finally got out of the emotionally- and personality-stunted ruts they were in for 11 books, and actually started behaving like REAL PEOPLE.

It was tremendously refreshing and invigorating. It was like watching characters who'd been in developmental stasis for years suddenly take their first steps forward in new self-realization. I thank Brandon Sanderson profusely for that. He must have thought the same thing-- that writing a status quo of these characters and their whining, self-doubting, self-important, non-communicative, endlessly-never-understanding-or-learning-anything-about-the-opposite-sex-despite-continual-opportunities-to-do-so, secret-keeping, self-conscious and ultimately mind-numbingly repetitive behavior wouldn't allow any of the climax-building events we read in TGS to ACTUALLY HAPPEN. I mean, Perrin finally, finally realizes "hey, maybe I should quit fighting this being a leader thing so that I can actually FUNCTION"? Congratulations, it only took you 11 books and dozens and dozens of endlessly repetitive inner monologues! Siuan and Bryne actually talk openly about a loving relationship? Faile and Perrin express genuine affection for one another that's not layered in confused and/or borderline angry inner monologuing? I'm sorry, is this a WOT book? I must be reading something else, because men and women don't discuss relationships, or ANYTHING, in mutually agreeable terms in Randland!

Always one of the most frustrating things about the WOT books for me. Yes, I understand that the dichotomy of male/female relationships and worldviews are the central theme of WOT. However much you want to illustrate that theme, eventually you need to have the characters learn something from it, because, ultimately, relationships between men and women are not actually THAT complicated. They are complex, yes, they are not INCSCRUTABLE and IMPOSSIBLE to understand. Not 11 books' worth of complicated, anyway.
Sam
283. bluecansam
I want to add my voice to the group of people who were requesting Tor make ebook versions of WoT. I forget who mentioned it earlier, but that was a source of frustration for me, too.

Is there a place one can send suggestions to Tor? With the advent of e-readers, I had really hoped there would be greater availability of new-release books.
Jason Deshaies
284. darxbane
Wolfmage @225,
I don't know if anyone answered this yet, but She did have enough channeling ability to create a light, so if she could channel, the Sa'Angreal would amplify that channeling. I agree that it is in direct relation to how much power you can wield, as there is also commentary that, even linked with 6 or so novices, and the Sa'Angreal, she isn't quite as strong as she would have been by herself, forkroot free.

I finished last night, and while I don't have time to comment on everything, I can official go on record to say that this book was everything I expected and more.

One more thing. If Rand didn't kill Graendal, then who compulsed that little Ramshlam guy Rand sent to her?
Matthew Smith
285. blocksmith
FSS@198

Is that Forever Socialist Society?

bluecansam@231

There have been other significant events after which Mat has reverted to humor for whatever reason. I am reminded of the Aiel attack on his camp after which Nerim is sewing up his wounds.

Helen@233 and Samadai@237

Samadai is absolutely correct...she decides to investigate/gain information about the BA. That investigation brings her to the point of either a) discovery or b) the realization that she needs to join to complete her investigation. I suspect discovery as it was stated "join or die".

DSCranshaw@236

Nynaeve repeatedly classifies Mat as a scoundrel to people that know him and/or are close to her sll the way through their trip to Ebou Dar. I think this is a case of her being protective of Mat to those that don't know him. It's ok for her to say such things, but not for anyone else. Kind of like Mat was one of her children.

Sluggonics@298

You are one of the few others mentioned this as a key. As I stated earlier, I thought one of the best scenes for this was Siuan explaining her oath breaking to Bryne.

To all commenters...please keep the theories for the next book coming. Very enjoyable to read and consider.

In that vein, I will throw some ideas out there...

Tuon (Fortuona) realizes that the raid on the White Tower had very limited success but they do gain the ability to Travel (see Elaida's, I mean Suffi's re-entrance into the story).

We don't get to know what was in Verin's letter...Mat waits the 30 days in Caemlyn then goes to the TOG.

Also, we will see our first introduction of Dreadlords in TOM, including Taim as the Head Dread.
Wilson Grooms
286. Nightbaron
jamesedjones @274
Also, she herself was surprised by her vehement defense of Mat, as we see in a later chapter. I think she might have been caught in Rand's (or even Mat's) ta'veren-ness. Or, maybe Tuon is ta'veren herself, considering how she was able to resist Rand's effect on her.

sps49 @268:
Here is a quote I found, but I don't know the chapter the quote is quoting, but anyway, Jordan was asked:
"Q: In The Shadow Rising, Lanfear mentioned two sa'angreal stronger than Callandor that a male could use. Is the second one ever going to appear?
RJ: Read And Find Out."

Therefore, I'm expecting that sa'angreal to appear at some point.
Wilson Grooms
287. Confutus
Where has the Black Ajah gone?
Dreadladies?
Gary Schaper
288. Garyfury
I'm curious... did anybody else read the scene with Min going through Herid Fel's books and notes, and thinking about picking up his investigation, and get a certain poignant intertextual riff off of that?
Wilson Grooms
289. Carly L
I finished the book last night (yes, two days after it came out, and I still had to go to work, and make dinner, and all that good stuff).

I agree with you Leigh, Rand channeling the "True" Power (I keep thinking of it as the Dark Power instead) and trying to kill Min made me put down the book and walk away. My hubby, who's not reading it until he finishes the rest of the series, asked me what was up, and I said "I don't like it very much right now". Thematically, it makes sense, and I get why it's in there, but still. I didn't like it at all.

As for the best scene in the book, I love the description of Egwene standing in a hole in the White Tower with the "vora sa'angreal" and fighting basically the entire Seanchan raid by herself! Egwene is made of awesomeness in this book!!
Pete Pratt
290. PeteP
I though Nyn's defense of Mat had more to do with Rand's getting so apathetic about his friends and allies then anything else. In defending Mat to Tuon, Nyn is also trying to get Rand to become human again.

Nyn, once she actually chooses to reverse course (which is mostly impossible for her), goes in with her whole heart, fearless and bold. Nyn, while knowing Mat is still the scoundrel, also knows that he is extremely capable and gifted, maybe the only SG who really has accepted Mat for who he is.
Chin Bawambi
291. bawambi
Leigh, just found your chapter reviews as a prelude to reading the book - excellent

@67
Sorry can't agree at all. I found every book since Rhuidean to be 200,000 words too much. Had a long discussion years ago with an old friend who stopped reading WoT - we seriously think that there must have been an editor change after Falme because you could have read the first few books as stand-alone novels and not until this book could you do that again. I'm actually going to give my copy to my buddy to read again without reading the 2-3 books that he missed and see what he thinks.

@leigh
was "apology accepted" done in a jamesEjones vader voice LOL

I think folks around here tend to forget that most of the major (read:two rivers) protagonists have gone through the puberty/young adult arc within this series and are now only learning the interpersonal lessons that adults take for granted.
I'm pretty certain that the winding down of the headdesking within the male/female relationships is all RJ's voice.
Wilson Grooms
292. CJB
sweetlilflower@256 - I'm suspicious about Talmanes too. I hope I'm wrong, but that little conversation in Mat's first chapter about Roedran did make me think that Talmanes may be a bit shifty.
Rikka Cordin
293. Rikka
@214, I know, I had to translate it in junior year Latin class ;) Nothing like drinking songs to get highschoolers into the classics.


@251 c. Moria BEST LOGIC EVAR! :D
Chin Bawambi
294. bawambi
Im not sure who originally asked balefire question but my 2 favorite balefire instances before this book were when Rand kills Rahvin thereby resurrecting Mat and Avi and when Rand takes out the darkhounds.
Rob Munnelly
295. RobMRobM
@285 "Tuon (Fortuona) realizes that the raid on the White Tower had very limited success but they do gain the ability to Travel (see Elaida's, I mean Suffi's re-entrance into the story)."

Fort will recognize that the attack on the WT was a disaster. They lost more than half of their raken and more damane than they got back. Yes, they'll have access to travelling but the cost was steep. She's already scared close to poopless from meeting the DR and how he'll respond to the attack; she knows how formidable her own PoR is in the field. Tylee will shortly tell her how formidable Perrin is in the field. And now she realizes that the marath'damane can kick butt. There's also the Asha'man, who scare the poop out of the Seanchan already. The only issue is when and how she will re-approach the DR to say "my bad" and begin to work together.

My strong assumption is she'll be desperate to get her PoR to her for support and advice, as well as love, and propose a partnership with Mat as General of the combined forces. The problem is he'll be out of pocket for a bit going to the Tower of Ghenji, getting Moiraine and losing an eye in the process. Query how she'll respond - perhaps sending Tylee back to Perrin and saying she's prepared to negotiate but only after her hubby is found.

Rob
Wilson Grooms
296. yebeme
Egwene is unquestionably set up as the brightest point of light for the good guys this book, but I found her storyline a little off putting. As someone noted earlier, she was suddenly given to speechifying. And the reaction was always the same, chapter after chapter--people go from argumentative in response, to uncertain, to "quiet filling the room." This was the formula for several chapters, to the point that Egwene felt more like she was being fed lines by fans and the writer (and since the writer is ALSO a fan, it makes sense) than an organic character.

Couple that with the inherent nature of her captivity--if they punish her, she wins--and you have a scenario where she can't really lose, which isn't altogether compelling. Actually, her only failure was getting rescued, which was something she couldn't control. It was interesting and it felt good to see her take Elaida on, but that was only because someone needed to finally say something to her. That it was Egwene and the way it was done, with points anyone and everyone within the Tower should have made before only made the inevitable reunion seem more unavoidable, and so I sort of lost interest. I was just along for the ride, and while it was an enjoyable one, I wasn't especially thrilled.

In short...Egwene felt like a Mary Sue. There. I said it.

Now, Rand, on the other hand, felt compelling to me. How many epic fantasy series set up the hero as having a problem not much bigger than winning the big game at the end? Johnny Football Hero needing to throw a touchdown pass against the vaunted Black Curtain of the Shadow Defense? But Rand has lived two lives full of tragedy and impossible responsibilities, already failed at it once, has had to do and become things he never wanted to, almost was forced to kill, once again, a woman he loves. Can you imagine the pain of suddenly remembering the War of the Shadow? Repressed memories stay repressed for a reason.

The end, I personally thought, was amongst the best in the series. Poignant, even. Made me cry, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Rand has always done his duty and never really questioned why. It was always because he was the only one who could, and in a responsible, Two Rivers way, that made sense. But it also led him to a dark place. Finally choosing to be a force for good because he wants to, realizing he's been given an opportunity and not a responsibility, actually freeing himself of guilt...I don't know how that's not climactic. Certainly more interesting than Egwene in the Tower. But then, I actually thought he might nuke the Seanchan or kill Tam or seriously damage the Pattern, so seeing him go from the depths to the heights (literally) was wonderful.
Barry T
297. blindillusion
Just a quick comment:

The Super Raken Flyers Club, aka Bloodknives, that everyone keeps wondering about...well, they should all be dead by now. The ring tar's they're wearing will kill them in "a matter of days." And, seeing as it took them a few days to reach Tar Valon, odds are they're all dead by now.

And as for their badassness that Tuon at el mentions...well, are we really surprised? Of course the Seanchan think overmuch of their weapons. But I'll bet a Bloodknife has never gone against a Warder before...and Bryne is one badass Warder.

Oh, coolest Tuon section goes to:

"We have changed everything," Fortuona said softly. "General Galgan is wrong; this will not give the Dragon Reborn a worse bargaining position. It will turn him against us."

"And was he not against us before?" Selucia asked.

"No," Fortuona said. "We were against him."

"And there is a differenc?"

"Yes," Fortuona said, watching the cloud of to'raken, just barely visible in the sky. "There is. I fear we shall soon see just how big a difference that is."


Way to give props. Can't wait to see what his reaction is. Though if I were her, I'd worry more about Egwene.
Matthew Smith
298. blocksmith
RobmRobm@295 and Blindillusion@297

I wanted to go there with the results of the Raken Raid on the WT...just couldn't visualize how Eg and Tuon (easier to type than Fortuona) get to "meet".

Since Tuon can be a Sul'dam, any chance Eg clamps an A'dam on her to show her the error of her ways?

I agree that the raid was not a complete success, but we do not yet know how many damane/sul'damane were lost, only that around 40 (I believe) AS and accepted/novices were taken. Did I miss something that more than 40 damane were destroyed?

And yes, regardless of the success or lack thereof, the consequences will be dire.
Matthew Smith
299. blocksmith
Oh...and just one more to 300...surprised it took this long.
Rob Munnelly
301. RobMRobM
Woof.

just kidding.

Edit - darn it, Sam.
Sam Mickel
302. Samadai
I think that the sul'dam thing just won't make a difference until after TG.

sorry Rob
Sam Mickel
303. Samadai
I have never had as much fun online as I have had during these rereads.
You guys are all invited to my bunker for cookies
Rob Munnelly
305. RobMRobM
@298. Egwene's group alone took out more than 30 raken (out of a 100 or so in the battle) and captured 10 damane. Since many raken were carrying damane, assume there were additional deaths there. While other parts of WT didn't do as well, no doubt collectively they exceeded 15 or 20 raken. I haven't yet seen a figure for how many AS were taken back to Ebou Dar but I have trouble imagining more than 20.
James Jones
306. jamesedjones
300 Samadai

Sub's still dealing with the new dog house. Might not claim a post until 400. :(
F Shelley
307. FSS
@293 - I wouldn't see why Elyas would feel Elza getting balefired. He's bonded to Rina something-or-other. Last name starts with an H.

@285 - I already apologized for inadvertantly dragging class warfare in here. Let it go.
Don Barkauskas
308. bad_platypus
sps49 @268:
Nightbaron @183- The two sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor are the male Choedan Kal and the female Choedan Kal.
The actual quote was that there are "two more powerful that a man can use," (emphasis added), so we still don't know the one other than the male Choedan Kal.
Upon reflection, I don't think Laras is Mesaana; she would have vaporized Egwene when she refused to leave. But I don't trust her anymore. Her actions have met with my approval, but they also have served Chaos.
I agree with you; I think the major problem with Laras as Mesaana is that she is too prominent a figure to be able to disappear for significant lengths time without explanation, which seems to me to be a prime necessity for Mesaana's alter ego. (People would probably notice if Laras is out of the kitchen too often.)
Wilson Grooms
309. Cadsuwallop
Regarding Laras as Mesaana:

"Heavens, no," Verin said. "She's many things, but not a Darkfriend. You'd sooner find a Whitecloak marry an Aes Sedai than find Laras swearing to the Great Lord. Extraordinary woman. And quite good at judging the flavor of teas."

Ok, so yes Verin CAN lie, but did she and if so, for what reason? Practically with her dying breath she wishes she could have given Egwene Mesaana's identity.

Or is this sneaky, tricking Verin being sneaky and tricky to the end?

Is there a Whitecloak (or former Whitecloak? married to an Aes Sedai? Is this foreshadowing?

So many questions answered in this book, so many more to go!!

Off topic - my husband decided to make my day even sweeter on Tuesday and thought cookies would go great with my book. He brought me chocolate chips and snickerdoodles and thought I was insane when I laughed and asked him to put them in the bunker!
john mullen
310. johntheirishmongol
Rob: Cuendillar cookies are hard on your teeth, and sit in your tummy like a rock.
Matthew Smith
312. blocksmith
RobmRobm@305

Could have sworn there was an Egwene introspective where she compares the dead and missing to her WT BA list and comes up with 40 legit missing (ie, not run off because the BA alarm to bail went off) of which 24 were full AS.

FSS@307

No worries...all in good fun with no harm/insult intended. You may flame away if I start quoting Dick Cheney.

Warm, soft oatmeal raisin cookies with hot, black coffee is the only way to go...although I don't think I have ever tried a snickerdoodle. Leave the cuendillaros alone...they promote tooth decay.
Wilson Grooms
313. douglasm
darxbane @284

The "almost as much as herself without forkroot" was when she had the circle but not the sa'angreal. After she got the sa'angreal she was channeling enough power that she was absolutely confident that no damane the Seanchan could possibly have would even come close to being able to shield her. She gave an analogy something like children trying to stop a waterfall with just their hands, as I recall.

My guess is that the increased power from the sa'angreal was based on her actual ability, not her forkroot-limited ability. It was established way back with the Bowl of Winds that using an angreal is very similar to leading a link, and Egwene had just demonstrated that forkroot short of the amount that prevents channeling entirely has no effect on your ability to lead a circle. Furthermore, the ability to manage many flows at once is highly correlated with and probably directly caused by high strength in the power, but even in KoD Egwene retained all of her ability to manage multiple flows despite forkroot. I think forkroot reduces the amount of power you can channel unaided but has no effect on related abilities or the magnitude of any aid you get. It's like the forkroot gives -90% power, the sa'angreal gives +10000% power, and the two combine to give +9910% power.

That, or she somehow got it to work based on the circle's strength, but that seems to contradict previous circle-with-angreal arrangements.
F Shelley
314. FSS
@312 - Oh all right. I feel grumpy today for some reason. Probably because it will be a whole year before the next book. Someone go poke Brandon with a stick. He needs to hurry!
Sam
315. bluecansam
285: blocksmith

There was a subtlety to the section you mentioned, and a heavy-handed element to the example I mentioned that illustrates the differences in sharp contrast. Thank you for proving my point even further.

I wrote my initial comment without reading all the comments. I more wanted to respond to what Leigh wrote, rather than all the comments, which would have taken forever. I have read quite a lot of them now, though, and I'm amazed just how many people did have problems with how Mat was written.

A lot of you are filling in the blanks for BS, which is fine. I do think that's what we'll ultimately all have to do, especially if his portrayal of Mat doesn't improve over these last two books. I can't really blame BS, actually. Out of all the characters, I would expect Mat to be one of the most difficult to write.

So there we have it. Mat is different. Many of us recognize it. We'll just have to move on and hope we can grow to love the Mat BS is writing.
Matthew Smith
316. blocksmith
Leigh

Just thought of something else...

When you resume your re-read, I expect you will try to keep your reviews TGS spoiler-free (maybe not...).

I anticipate this to be tres difficile in light of some of the explosive/momentous revelations in TGS.

I look forward to your attempts, but don't worry, if you can't keep the spoilers out, I'm sure we will all still respect you in the morning.

FSS @314

I'm thinking maybe alot of pokes with sticks...the twitching for TOM began about 1/2 hour after I put down TGS.
Wilson Grooms
317. Azith
It might be a little early for theory discussion...but this one I cant get out of my head.

The passage that Min and Cadsuane were talking about dealing with The becoming one and Callandor.

I Think they are referring to The Three powers. Saidar, Saidin, and the True power.

Callador is 'flawed' because it is ment to channel all three powers, not just one or two. Cadsuane thinks its flawed because she likely has no idea about the existence of the true power.

This is supported if you consider what we think will happen at the last battle. Lets say that the true power isnt really the Dark ones power...its what should be in the world. The Dark one was blocking it from reaching through and thus was blocked by the seals along with the dark one. The seals need to be destroyed so Rand can use the full force of all three powers to properly destroy the Dark one.

and he needs Callandor...the only saangreal that can protect him from channeling too much of all of the powers to meld the flows.
Wilson Grooms
318. Sluggonics
@308
I agree with you; I think the major problem with Laras as Mesaana is that she is too prominent a figure to be able to disappear for significant lengths time without explanation, which seems to me to be a prime necessity for Mesaana's alter ego.


Interestingly, I noted that in this book Tarna Feir was mentioned being away on a "mysterious mission" and had apparently been gone for some time. Given that I haven't read the books immediately prior to this one in years, and ended up mostly skimming through them at the time anyway (so boring!)-- what "mysterious mission" is Tarna currently on? Presumably we were told in one of the past few books? I always liked her as Mesaana because of the number of oddities about her personality given in COT:22 One Answer.
Wilson Grooms
319. Poapst
@296
Totally agree. Not that I didn't like Egwene, but really... Rand's side was more compelling from a story PoV.
I have the feeling that Tuon and Rand will make a peace allowing Tuon to keep the Damane already collared who don't want to leave (aka: All of them.) which will explain Egwene's prophesised 'ANGER' at Rand.
Can't wait for the Avi/Rand reunion, or the Rand/Elayne one (+2 :D).
I did want to know everyone's take on the prophesy that Min had early in the book about Nyna weeping over a grave. Who is close to Nyna who's gonna die?!?! I feel like it would be Lan, but that may be too obvious. And Rand's gonna be on a Pyre/Boat or some such thing according to Min's viewings so it can't be him....
Thoughts?

PS> Cuendillar cookies = delicious.
F Shelley
320. FSS
#318 - Tarna went with the non-men hating Red Ajah gang to bond Ashaman in the Epilouge of KoD. Since sometimes the epilouges happen out of sync with the ending of the current book and the start of the next book (thinking of Mogheidien's escape, specifically), she could have been out on that mission.

Of course it could be something different, too, like the levy-collecting mission.
Wilson Grooms
321. woody_145
I think the scene with Rand and Moridin was one of the most enlightening. It sounded almost as if Moridin aka ishy was second guessing his devotion to the DO. Or maybe he was just pissed that Rand was becoming the "betrayer of hope", where would that leave him? As for the ending? AWESOME! seriously how can you find that anti-anything! It was exactly how I had hoped it would come, welcome back Rand!! The only problem I have is that I have to wait another entire frick'n year AGAIN! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
James Jones
322. jamesedjones
317 Azith

Woah. You just earned yourself an automatic chair in the Looney Theory corporation board of directors. That one's Awesome!

(My support might not be what you were looking for :P)

So now we just need to determine who is going to channel what. Moridin for the TP, Alivia for saidar, and Rand for saidin? Or will Rand channel both the TP and saidin with Alivia and someone else? Or Elayne and Avi? This is like that commerical for all the potential ways to have your Whataburger. ;)

Seriously, I really like the idea that Callandor offers so much trouble as a tool because they aren't using all of its necessary functionality.
F Shelley
323. FSS
@321 - really? I though Moridin was laughing at the rest of the Forsaken for actually believing that they would be in charge of anything because if the DO wins, obviously (to him) creation itself would cease to exist. He knows he'd die too, and seems OK with it. And he knows Rand could win, and it would be another Age, and is OK with that too. He thinks he really can't be defeated, because his and Rand's souls will continue the contest "until the Shadow is triumphant!" - TOETW, prolouge.
Barry T
324. blindillusion
Just some stuff I picked up from another thread, and I liked the words.
Plus, there is no way in God's green flaming earth Mat Bloody Cauthon is going to let Bode get collared.

I think we all know that when the chips are down, there is nobody you'd rather have on your side than Mat, not even "loyal Perrin" or "liquid nuke wielding Rand"

No worries about Bode. She's with the rebels. Replacing her on "cuendillar chain detail" is what got Egwene captured


But it does raise a question....Why the hell wasn't Bode in this book? You'd think there'd at least be an honorable mention with her thanking Egwene for taking her place...or something.

EDIT for something I cannot recall anyone talking about yet:

Did we see Rand's beggar scene in Just Another Man? He had his thread bare cloak. He had his staff. And also, according to the end prophecy, a "blind" man regained his sight...or something along those lines. I don't have my book in front of me.
John Alt
325. John_A
Awesome Book

A couple things I got out of it (trying not to repeat what I've seen above)

Rand, Mat, and Perrin spend time reflecting on the near death of their wives, and all 3 are changed by it. In fact, either directly or indirectly it helps all 3 get their heads on straight. I'd guess there is some over-arc tie-in I'm glossing over here.

I think the only other reason we saw Mat in this book is to expose Aludra's progress. Her "dragons" have to be ready for one of the next two books in a plausible amount of time. I don't buy it (it's far too short,) but BS has to deal with the belated timeline given him. Well, the letter was probably important, too, but didn't have to come here. It could have been told in flashback in the next book.

I was surprised to find Eg's need was the Tinker camp. I wonder if it has to do with "Tell the Dragon....." scratched in blood on the Tinker wagon Mat found so long ago? It could be tied into the song, and getting the seeds to sprout and all, but somehow there's got to be another piece to that puzzle. Perhaps all the Tinker wagons in Ebou Dar throw another link/twist in the Seanchan/Dragon/White Tower saga. They are in the right place to feed the starving people of Ebou Dar. Maybe a tie into the "feel her wrath" vision when Eg finds out he left all those people to starve? Ow, head hurting now.

The DO have been using the Chosen as pawns in this and every other age, to bend the Dragon to break the pattern. Moridin and Shadar Harin are pieces I haven't figured out yet. Yes, Moridin is the Dark's counterpart (counterforce?) to the Dragon, but where does Shadar Haran(sp) fit in?

The fact Trollocs are using the ways probably means they are clean again, in some fashion.

Throughout this book, Rand was acting more and more like the people of Aridhol/Shadar Logoth. I was convinced that his cleansing of the taint had left the Fain portion of his wound to advance on him, or it was some other Fain link affect. I was blown away when Rand drew the TP, and it became clear it was the DO/Moridin all along. Or was it? I'm lost as to where the Fain/Aridhol lesson/arc is going. I'm hoping he doesn't get an Elaida/Maseema two page exit.
Wilson Grooms
326. yebeme
I assumed Rand drawing the TP was through Moridin. Didn't he see a face in his vision for a split second just before he seized it? I took that as a sign that he saw Moridin, took the TP through him and then used it to off Semi.
Wilson Grooms
327. ania hyek
it is one thing i have to say for myself 3 days no book for me yet ( sulking... green with jealousy) and still stopping myself from reading this preview
Barry T
328. blindillusion
I think the only other reason we saw Mat in this book is to expose Aludra's progress. Her "dragons" have to be ready for one of the next two books in a plausible amount of time. I don't buy it (it's far too short,) but BS has to deal with the belated timeline given him. Well, the letter was probably important, too, but didn't have to come here. It could have been told in flashback in the next book.


I doubt the dragons/dragon eggs are going to be used in the Last Battle, or at least not many. I'm thinking cannons/guns will be a 4th Age weapon.

After all, Gaidal Cain is probably going to be a 4th Age Hero.

I wonder who Shivan the Hunter & Calian the Chooser will be? I'm thinking Shivan will be played by Olver. Mr Jordan said the kid is not a red-herring.
Rob Munnelly
329. RobMRobM
@325. "I was surprised to find Eg's need was the Tinker camp." Yes - I had the same thought. One of those subtle points that, once the ruckus dies down, will occupy us in theoryland for the next year. R
Rob Munnelly
330. RobMRobM
@328. "I doubt the dragons/dragon eggs are going to be used in the Last Battle, or at least not many. I'm thinking cannons/guns will be a 4th Age weapon."

Strongly disagree. They'll be used in here and now. Maybe Rand will send them up to Tarwin's Gap with Lan to reinforce the Golden Crane Light TM forces.
Wilson Grooms
331. kab1
@109 jwdenzel and @197 Dholton. I’ve gone over the parts with Mat again, and I agree with your analysis. I also agree that Mat’s in excellent hands with Brandon and team Jordan. For anyone who knows Brandon, please tell him that even if he was a little off, Mat was still quite funny and the book is fantastic! Loved it.

@various comments on Perrin. I also wonder when he’s going to come back to relevancy. He now has Galad and Morgase with him and everyone knows who Morgase is (Yippee!). I really, really hope that first meeting of Galad and Morgase, her reveal and everyone’s reaction, most importantly Faile and Alliandre (just their expressions would be hilarious, after their time with the Shaido), are written in the next book! Pretty Please! I’d much rather have that scene than Perrin being lord under a wagon. And for all the comments that Mat was a bit off, I’d say Perrin was spot on.

@165, I’d never thought of that before. I like the theory!

re: the Avi chapters, I said before I thought her angst was a bit drawn out, but I did want to add that I loved having her PoV back and seeing her interact with Amys. I would have loved to see her journey to Rhuidian and back as well (maybe next book?). I can’t wait till she comes back as a WO and sees Rand. squee!

Also, I thought Tuon was spot on. Very well done. One of the things that nailed her character for me was that she spoke directly to Beslyn (not using her voice and shocking the other blood) to explain things to him, but in the midst of this she still would have him strapped for not averting his eyes. Very Tuon to me. I really like her character, and will find myself agreeing with her thoughts/actions, but then, bam, something she does/thinks will be so Seanchan. The Rand/Egwene/Tuon interactions to come have me very interested. I think it will be great when they all find out Tuon and Mat are married and he’s Prince of the Ravens (or now Emperor??!!). I wonder what would happen if someone slapped an adam on her- seems like it might be the only way to get her to realize how wrong they are.

@180- I agree with you on the they’re not Zombies thing. For me, it fits in with the appearance of other evils that have been happening and I wouldn’t be surprised if RJ had sketched out that village/scene and Brandon filled it in. Maybe because it’s a reoccurring thing and not a “bubble” of evil that it seems weird to people. But there was that other village that Perrin was in when hunting for Faile that also was tainted- can’t remember the details, one of the AS wanted to stay and help.

@205. Excellent analysis.

@281 Verin’s letter containing something about the horn makes perfect sense. So much so, that I’m embarrassed I didn’t make the connection before.

@325 Yes, I’m excited to see new Tinker theories come out.

I also like the importance that Callandor is taking in the series/ new theories. Seems fitting that it should play an important role at TG, possible along with another Sangreal

Wow, that was a long one, I’m off to the bunker for Samadai’s cookies. Glad we’re finally getting to the refreshments!
Richard Fife
332. R.Fife
OK, read the post, haven't read the comments, I will try (325 comments? really? Mother's Milk in a Cup)

My initial reactions:
Demandred's army is the Black Tower, proxying via Taim. Re-inforced in the Meeting of Evil where we are mislead into thinking Grendael will be important (aside as balefire bait).

Rand's dark place oddly did not irritate me near as much as Gawyn's emo'ing. I actually did scream at the book in every scene where Gawyn plotted Rand's death. Similar for Perrin's scenes, actually (on his unchanged emo-ness).

Chapter 20's opening, with Mat's dice-game description of women, had me laughing to hard I had to call a friend up and read the scene to him. Actually is my best friend who reminds me quite a bit of Mat....

I'd say my "crowning moment of awesome" was actually Egwene fighting the Seanchan. Finally someone sticking it to them with the Power in a way that needed done.

And as to the writing itself:
There were a few phrases, much as Leigh said in the non-spoiler thread, that stick out to me. One thing does bother me (and I might even go pester Maria about this), when Cads was meeting with the innkeeper, and he commented that there were Aiel in the city, she said "I hadn't noticed." Granted, she was being sarcastic, but I have to wonder... can Aes Sedai be sarcastic? I mean, technically, sarcasm is by its nature a lie, just one that isn't meant to be believed (then again, saying Egwene's dress is green or Sheriam's hair is red is the same way, kinda.) I kind of find it hard to think Cads could slip around the oaths like that.

...Perhaps SHE is purple ajah! I'd still rather have my true purple ajah'd Verin (I'm calling her purple cause I can!), but still... AS Sarcasm bugs me. Have we ever seen an AS use outright sarcasm before?
Matthew Smith
333. blocksmith
Kab1@331

I throw you kudos galore early on and you submarine me...(see 298).

Just kidding...obviously I am on the same page with regards to Tuon.

Relative to Eg's T-road visit to the Tinkers...at the time of reading I made a mental note "Revisit this with more time on hands...it will be important...just not now". After mulling it over, the only significant thing that makes sense is The Song. But for all I know, it could be another message from a dying Aiel...we will RAFO but have fun guessing until the next.
Rob Munnelly
334. RobMRobM
Let's start a contest re the ToM prologue.

Avi at the test or coming back from Rhuidean

Lan's golden crane status update.

The deep poop situation of Tarna, Pevara, Myrelle, etc at the Black Tower.... or Logain checking it out.

Talaan and Merlille showing up in TV to put her in the White Tower.

etc.
Barry T
335. blindillusion
One thing. Rand makes mention several times that Mat is still in that city. Well, we all know where he is, but as Rand is several weeks ahead of Mat in the storyline, does this mean Mat never read Verin's letter?

RomM@330 - I suppose it depends on how long it will be until the Last Battle and how long it takes Aludra to gather all her supplies, build what is needed, test what is built, fix any problems, test the corrections and then find a way to get the dragons to the necessary people.

And from what I read of this book, the Last Battle is only a few months away. About the only way this is going to happen is if Mat either gets Egwene to let him use Novices and Accepted or he gets Tuon to let him use damane to make the things.

We know what Egwene will say and Mat will not want to give Tuon/the Seanchan this technology.

But then, if Mat does get them off the assembly line in time for the Last Battle just as many people will die using them as they kill. It'd make the DO happy.
Rob Munnelly
336. RobMRobM
@366 - Wonder if building dragons will be a job for Elayne to supervise in ToM while she is getting bigger and Mat is off chasing Moiraine. Not sure what else she is supposed to do other than marshall her own armies for TG and work with Setalle re making use of new ter-greals.

Separate point - want to bet Sharina gets sent up to join Lan's troops in Tarwin's Gap? That would accord with Nyn's acceptatron vision.
Joseph Daly
337. Joed1414
Finished yesterday. This was the best book in the series IMO just for the amount of stuff that happens. All of it awesome. I liked when Ituralde talked about juggling and the bard in Caemlyn. Thom is bad ass. I liked the Matt scenes they were funny. I also choked up when they asked Nyn about Matt and she told them he was a Hero finally talking Matt up for a change. She was pretty awesome through the whole book. Egwene was even more awesome. I'd love to see someone animate that last scene where they were in the hall looking at the light shine on dragonmount. That was cool. Verin stole the show. She made the ultimate sacrifice for the light. She should have been blue not brown although I understand why she chose brown. Can't wait for the next book. In the next book they must find the song so they all don't starve. Oddly I think its Thom who will find it i thought there was some foreshadowing there when he was talking about old songs with Matt. I also think they're gona have to rescue Ituralde and Lan. The borderlands will be destroyed and the last battle rage between the white and black tower and the 2 rivers. Also Rand "dies" in the next book. I can't wait to see how that turns out.
Sydo Zandstra
338. Fiddler
vangiuli@273:

As I said before, all the Aes Sedai who knows about the Cleansing have had other important matters to deal with, Egwene more than others.
Still, I can't help wondering why no Aes Sedai considers all the implicatons of a cleansed saidin and if we'll see someone ever doing that.


Probably because none of those AS who know about it are White Ajah. Cadsuane had one White in her team, but IIRC that one was left behind in Cairhien before they all went out to cleanse Saidin.

Just wait until the first White Sister gets a confirmation that Saidin is clean...
Gary Schaper
339. Garyfury
@336, @335 -- Perhaps they can press some of their non-Oathed channelers into service, Power-forging the cannons so they work instead of exploding...
Wilson Grooms
340. douglasm
R.Fife @332

I don't remember exactly where, but I have seen a report of someone noticing a case of definite sarcasm from an Aes Sedai and asking RJ about it. RJ's answer was quite explicit that sarcasm is allowed by the first oath if the AS believes everyone present will understand it. I think the principle is that only statements that are both literally incorrect and intended to deceive are prevented, though the deception involved can be extremely minor, such as a slight exaggeration, and still qualify.
Barry T
341. blindillusion
Darn, I'm going to be away from my computer this weekend and was hoping to gets some thoughs on the probability of Rand's "beggar" scene in Just Another Man

and

whether or not you guys think Mat read Verin's letter since Rand keeps "seeing" him in Caemlyn. Rand's and Eqwene's story arcs is several weeks ahead of everyone else.

help a guy out?
Sam Mickel
342. Samadai
@341 blindillusion,

I was thinking that Rand is going to leave the mountain, wander the plains end up with the traveling people where he will teach them the song of growing. Then perrins next quest is findin g Rand in time fot the last battle(the second time Rand needs Perrin or bad things will happen)

I think Mat has read the letter and i bet it is about the location of the horn of valere.
Sam Mickel
343. Samadai
someone will have to or the world will be starving dead before the last battle.

of course these are just my opinion
Patrick Huff
344. pattack
I just completed The Gathering Storm. I was very reluctant to finish it, because it just meant a longer wait for the next book. I just had to keep reading like I was compelled to do so. Part of me wants to say it was the best book of the series so far, part of me is disappointed. I guess you could say I'm a little torn. I have always enjoyed the White Tower division story, so that is not the issue. I love Aviendha and have since the first pages she appeared in, (except for the whole Elayne story). I was usually impressed with Rand and his continued descent into madness. The disappointment is the handling of one charactor in particular. Matrim Cauthon. I won't give anything away for the readers who have not read the book, but I must say that his plotlines in this book were needless and pointless. Mat is a very popular charactor with me and I'm sure many fans of the series and to have his space in the book be reduced to a b horror movie was a waste of good paper in my opinion. Oh yes, we did find out some interesting details along the way, but as a whole it was a real bummer to not come up with better material. Hell, even Mat talking to himself for thirty pages would have been better than what I had to read. It reminded me of a bad episode of Star Trek TNG where the crew spends the whole hour reliving the day over and over again. I hope that the next two books have a bigger and better role for him to play or this whole series in my opinion will be tarnished. Please give Mat some meat, I beg of you...
Wilson Grooms
345. Chriscot
I don't agree that Mat was that off. Someone said (in the early 100s) that Mat joked more freely in this book than in others (except maybe the early ones). Well, that was my impression too, and it makes perfect sense to me. Realize that it's been AGES since we've seen Mat with FRIENDS the way we do here. For the entire BowloftheWhines arc, he was being needled, manipulated, and ignored; for the time with Tuon and the show, he was jumping out of his skin as a fugitive, dealing with having kidnapped his future wife and leader of his enemy, dealing with challenges from Egeanin, the Aes Sedai, the Suldam, the showfolk...he was *not* at ease.

Now Mat's with the Band again, and while he's stressed (and freaked about Tuon), most of the stress he's been under is currently resolved. Tuon's gone and safe, Egeanin's no longer fighting for control, they're away from the show and the immediate Seanchan threat, etc. And he's surrounded by friends again. So he's more open with the jokes.

Personally, one of the things I liked about the difference between this book and the last several is that these people acted like they were friends, or (as with Nynaeve and Rand) at least remembered they'd been friends, once upon a time. Some of that's been lacking lately, and it's nice to see the teamofthelight starting to come together again.

I don't like zombie stories, but the Hinderstrap Zombie episode was appropriately creepy, horrifying, and really, really sad. Poor folks. It was well done as one of the worst evil bubbles ever. Plus it gave Mat a moment of awesome when he went in alone to save one of his men.

Also, Avi was fine. She hasn't seen the ST:TNG or read Raymond E. Feist, and her entire culture has raised her to submit to ridiculous punishments. It takes true wisdom to be able to slough that off - a degree of cultural awareness that is rare in Randland - and all told it didn't take up much of the book, so the complaints don't make much sense to me.

The rest of the book...freaking awesome, as has been said. Egwene ruled, Sneaky Verin is sneakily awesomelicious (thought I'm a bit skeptical even of *her* being able to id the whole BA without being caught, but she's sneaky, sneaky, smart, sneaky, careful, and sneaky). Bryne smacking some sense (verbally) into Gawyn was good. Perrin was a little enh, considering how his Shaido story turned around and became awesome in Knife of Dreams, I was surprised that he was now being all self-doubty again. But Nynaeve showed moments of awesome, Rand was terrifying and sad, and Brandon/Jordan are awesome for how they pulled off how terrifying and sad Rand was. I was totally freaked by seeing Rand in Moridin's colors all the time, and by seeing the black aura around him - so like the aura or black cord Rand saw around the male Forsaken in the early books. The Shadow's always wanted to turn and corrupt Rand, more than it has to beat him; it was so close. I was really really all but convinced that Min was going to die; that Nynaeve with her (awesome) confrontations with Rand was going to push him into turning on her; and that Tam was toast. Which, if it had happened, I don't know that my ability to like Rand would ever have come back. As it was, I'm convinced that that horrific episode was enough to drive him to his final crisis, and to come through it.

Happy happy awesomeness.

When's the next book? *twitch*

Towers of Midnight - Ghenjei and Black?
Roger Powell
346. forkroot
Let me start with the statement that I love the WoT Series and I think TGS is a fantastic addition. So when you see criticism below, please read it within that context.

Now here's the hardest part: I think Sanderson did an outstanding (but not flawless) job considered he was handed a mess. Ouch! Hurts to say that about a series I love, but it's true. The truism about a design not being complete until everything that can be taken away is removed applies here.

Sometime around ACoS, RJ let the series lose focus (others may differ on the timing). I remember being mildly surprised when an important character like Cadsuane was not introduced (nor foreshadowed) until the 7th book of the series. Then when the 8th book began by introducing another plot line (the Borderlander armies going south) it was clear that the story had gotten overburden with plot threads.

Since "thought experiments" have been popular in the reread, here's one: Imagine removing the "Masema becomes the Prophet" plot line completely. Do you honestly believe the story would have suffered?

I understand that some will not share my opinion, and indeed I'm conflicted because I love reading the books and the more plot lines, the more chapters, the more pleasure for me.

Nevertheless, Sanderson was handed an impossible task: "Clean up all these plot lines in one book please" Yeah, right. Wasn't going to happen without ruining the series, even if RJ had tried it.

Sanderson was also handed the task of immersing himself in arguably the most complex fantasy world out there, and then continuing the story while trying to keep the character voices accurate all in about a year (realistically).

He did a GREAT job. Really. Yes, he missed on a few things:

1) Pretty much a universal consensus that he missed on Mat. Other posters have this covered.

2) Modern idioms sneaked into the text ("Do that math"). I call these his "Homicidal Hat-Trick" moments. I think BS is less aware of what is "current jargon" because he is young and doesn't remember when people didn't say "not an option". Can you imagine how jarring it would be to have a WoT character say "right on!" when affirming something. Those of us who grew to maturity in the 70s would have thought nothing of it.

3) Technical errors - Sulin was supposed to be with Perrin (Big OOPS!). Joline didn't count her warders when demanding horses from Mat. Some of this reflects on "Team Jordan" that should have helped by catching those errors.

4) Since we're speaking of warders, this wasn't a technical error, but omitting Elza's warder (Fearil) from any mention (when she was balefired) was annoying. At least a sentence saying that he went bonkers and died dueling another warder ... or something.

Some stuff just had to be rushed (back to the "too many plot lines to resolve" problem.) There wasn't time for an involved cat/mouse game with Graendal. We've had plenty of "Forsaken duels" with Rand already; I thought BS did an outstanding job with that plot line as he eliminated Graendal and continued to harden Rand's character at the same time.

BS also helped smooth over RJ's rushed plot line enders with some nice retrospectives on Aram and Rolan. Also, good job of ending the Masema plot thread.

A quick nod of agreement with other posters who have praised Egwene's plot arc, Verin's reveal, and how Gareth/Suian was handled.

What I haven't seen much comment on is the fantastic job that Sanderson did with the reintegration of Rand's character. He gave us plenty of clues as throughout the book LTT becomes saner and saner as Rand becomes less and less sane. As the book progresses, we also see Rand more and more comfortable with accessing LTT's memories "seamlessly". Then the monster clue comes when Rand visits Moridin in T'AR and is fully integrated for a moment. All this sets up the resolution on Dragonmount beautifully.

Lastly, I really hope to hear that Demandred or some other agent of the Shadow has controlled the Borderlanders. Otherwise the whole bit with Far Madding was way out of character. Good Grief! Lord Agelmar (one of the five Great Captains) and Queen Ethenielle (accounted as competent) are with this group - they would not run off in fear from the 'Big-Bad-Dwagon'. Agelmar even knows Rand.

One more point: There were many emotional "in-book" moments for me, but the first surprise "teary" moment came as I opened the book and read the Foreward.
Wilson Grooms
347. little minion
Great review, Leigh!

Most of my reactions consisted of:

"OH. MY. GOD." (Rand storyline + Verin chapter)
"Oh SNAP!" (Egwene one-liners)
"Awwwww!" (Siuan and Gareth)

I skimmed the Mat bits, although I actually did enjoy his women analogy.

Still hate Perrin and Faile. LAME!!!

And, as always, Nynaeve defined excellence. Especially now that I know how to pronounce her name.

Some thoughts:

BA PURGE: I think Egwene opted for the purge rather than giving the BA sisters a chance to redeem themselves because she wanted to honor Verin's sacrifice, and she believed that it's more expedient to execute them since they're so untrustworthy.

CALLANDOR & THE THREE MERGING: Rand + Nynaeve + Moiraine, with Alivia in the sidelines for the kill.

NEXT BOOK: Mat rescues Moiraine! Logain beats the crap out of Taim! Morgase and Elayne reunite!

Argh I can't wait! In the meantime, I'll re-read tGS until the pages fray.
Noneo Yourbusiness
348. Longtimefan
I am not that fond of the Mat character and I will agree the character was a bit off. One of the things for me that no one had mentioned yet was is comment on his own hat. It seemed a bit to "aware" for something he had picked up to shade his eyes in the desert and then just wore out of habit.

I was not thinking zombies however, I was thinking star trek. It does showcase the result of the Dark One gaining power effectively.

Should the Dark One win there would be no "reset". In the total darkness of that victory all people would become as beasts of violence and destroy each other until all are gone.


Not something the townsfolk care to dwell on.

My looney theory on Min's revelation about the Sword of light and the three as one.

Rand has to wield Callandor (he destroyed the sphere, which by the way was on the road to Caihieren (sp) so was the road and perhaps the city damaged by this explosion?) and to do so he needs two women he can trust.

Moiraine and Aliva.

Moiraine has to come back for something important (Min's viewing) and Alvia will help him die (battling the DO)

Moiraine will have to lead the flows with her knowledge gained in the Tower of Genji (out of the Dark One's view so not considered a threat).

Going into it all three will know that they will die wielding the power together through Callandor to defeat the Dark One. They will do it anyway.

No loony theory on how Rand comes back to life after that.
T C
349. Freelancer
My wife loves me! I came home from work yesterday to find my copy of TGS at my place on the dinner table. And a ticket for the signing line at the San Diego stop on Brandon's tour. Talk about shocked. No clue how I'm going to match that.

So I had just enough time after finishing the book this morning to wash up and change clothes to avoid being late for work. So forgive me, but I've a lot to comment on, and haven't bothered to read anything but Leigh's writeup.

Leigh, I admit that while I read, I was trying to relate your non-spoiler scene reactions to chapters, and I misidentified a few. But there was no mistaking the awesomest (I had expected something to do with Lan, heh).

Sneaky, sneaky, SNEAKY Verin! Mole for the Light?!? When she said Egwene's dress was green, I was like, "Yes!, she has removed her Oaths!" Then when she said she was Black I just thought, "Right, she just admitted she could lie, what kind of joke is this?" And then awesomeness blossomed bigger and badder from there. Amazing.

The scenes in the Tower are written so well. I heart Silviana, doing her duty even when she doesn't approve, but standing up for integrity when it goes too far, no matter the cost. Strong stuff, but not the strongest. Egwene pwns. Circle up some accepteds/novices, gate to the storeroom, and POWERUP! The battle scenes are outstanding. The reconciliation of the Tower was better. Very, very deftly handled.

I bow before those who believed Sheriam was a DF.

I feel exactly as Leigh did about the disastrous meetings with both Hurin and Tam, but the timing is flawless from the viewpoint of the story as a whole. If Rand had come away from his meeting with Tam as a little less inhuman, it would have taken so much longer for him to "hit bottom", and get that settled.

With what happened on Dragonmount, the story heads into the penultimate installment with the new Rand. The twitching will be gloriously painful over the next year. And yes, the debate over LTT will continue to rage. Of course he's real, but Rand has allowed a complete integration of their personalities, by giving LTT hope that Ilyena lived another turn on the Wheel. Beautiful.

On The Big Tease. Rand, in one of those swirling colors moments, sees Perrin talking to Galad. So, I called this one two books ago on the theory boards (though I admit my original prediction had Galad helping free Faile/Alliandre/Morgase et al), but we still haven't seen it happen! We know from Tam that everyone now knows who Morgase is (and it sort of raises the stock of the Tam/Morgase theory, except that Tallanvor is still alive and well), but we still haven't seen it happen! Egads, the seeds of twitching, they are planted shallow and close together.

Nothing directly from Taim, Logain, or the Black Tower in this whole volume. Wow.

Nothing from Elayne either, for that matter. I estimate that 73% of the fandom are pleased.

Gawyn. Rash, unstable, finally realizing that sticking with his first decision is illogical. Most definitely not a victim of Compulsion, just twisted judgement.

Aviendha's ascendance. I'm afraid this one was too obvious, with the first set of "punishments" that had no source, I saw what was happening. After that it was more like wanting to smack her on the back of her head and say, "Hello, McFly! Anybody home in there? Step up already!"

Rand balefiring an entire manor to get Graendal. Flawlessly brilliant. How can anyone have a negative reaction to this? He was right, nobody who was in there had a functional mind left, he was doing them a favor. Sending the local dandy in to get "Compulsed" as a verification of Graendal's demise is so shrewd that it proves Rand isn't insane. He never had to risk himself or someone he cared about getting within her reach. This was smarter than Mat's best moves with the Band.

Nynaeve, still with the massive blind spots regarding men as a group, and Rand in particular. And yet willing to suppose that he knows what he's doing, just when everyone else thinks he's gone full-bore loopy. She cares, and that matters a ton.

Cadsuane. Rand is right. She had him boxed in by his own behavior and her arrogance. She is still important to him, and very smart, but she has blown it big time. Especially by sending Tam to Rand with a script. Maybe, just maybe, the New Rand will give her another chance, but put her in the place he put Moiraine during her last months with him.

Tuon. Definitely her turn on the "trust the wrong intel and make a horrible mistake because of it" merry-go-round. She really still thinks that the White Tower serves the Dragon, or vice versa? Plus, I had been hoping that her position vis-a-vis marath-damane had softened over the last few months.

Siuan/Gareth. It's about time. Love Bryne's intoxicated reaction to the Warder benefits, and the temporary suspense of "the second demand".

Ok, that's enough for now. Except to say to Brandon Sanderson and Team Jordan an immense THANK YOU. This book is WoT, first word to last, there is nothing lost. The depth of scenery, the richness of dramatic detail, the pace of the dialog, it was all RIGHT. Bravo.
Mitchell Swan
350. mcswan
Wow. Finished yesterday. Other than general glee over Verin's awesomeness, and happiness with how the Tower split worked out, I'll only say one thing I haven't seen anyone else mention. (If I'm wrong, let me know) It's minor, but now Suian and Leane are now bound again.

Suian's fallback of being able to lie is finally gone!
Barry T
351. blindillusion
Hey Free@349, glad you'll be able to join the fun.
Wilson Grooms
352. Dholton
@Laras

I don't think she's Mesaana. I can't imagine her in a bronze dress with embroidery for one thing. But her bolt hole in the kitchen does lead me to believe that she helps novices and accepted run away from the Tower if they need to. Maybe even as an agent of the Kin.

@Three are One

I'll say again, I think the three are Avi, Min and Elayne. There's a reason that Pattern has Rand fall in love with them (and vice versa of course). Since Callandor requires two female Channelers, that's Avi and Elayne. As for Min, I believe that her viewings in concert with her bond with Rand will in some way provide the necessary guidance for Rand's use of Callandor in sealing the Bore.
Roger Powell
353. forkroot
Freelancer@349
My wife loves me! I came home from work yesterday to find my copy of TGS at my place on the dinner table. And a ticket for the signing line at the San Diego stop on Brandon's tour. Talk about shocked. No clue how I'm going to match that.
Wow...your wife had her own WoT MOA. Thanks for sharing that cool tidbit!

Cadsuane. Rand is right. She had him boxed in by his own behavior and her arrogance. She is still important to him, and very smart, but she has blown it big time. Especially by sending Tam to Rand with a script. Maybe, just maybe, the New Rand will give her another chance, but put her in the place he put Moiraine during her last months with him.
I don't know...I'm trying to decide if she has fulfilled Min's viewing yet. She certainly had a causal link in the process that taught Rand to laugh again; OTOH I think Min said something about her teaching all the Asha'man something.
Roger Powell
354. forkroot
Thoughts about Tam "spilling the beans" on Morgase: Yeah it was a disappointment - it takes a lot of the tension out of any forthcoming "reveal" scene with Perrin (and possibly Galad).

I have a hunch on what happened - it's quite possible that the Morgase reveal originally preceded the chapter with Rand and Tam, back before Brandon realized he had to split the manuscript. He did state that he had to move some stuff around once that decision was made.

If that's the case, it's too bad that the one little bit in Tam's conversation didn't get taken out. Oh well, we've all known that Morgase would be revealed sooner or later, we just haven't known the exact circumstances and we still don't.
Wilson Grooms
355. Jambo
I felt a bunch of the prophecies were messily tied up, which was a little disappointing. The whole laughing/crying thing...ehhhh, i couldve done without the whole "ARGHHHHH, let's kill Pop's!!!!1!" thing, but I actually thought Lews Therin was a whole lotta awesome here (now that i think about it, he was awesome for the whole book!)....and maybe someone can confirm, but i dont think Rand actually cried, he just laughed..... i hoping rand and tam being reunited would be better, i've been lookin forward to that scene since the beginning of the books, but i thought it turned out awfully flat imo.

the begger thing was a little fail in my opinion; very forced....

and what's the deal with Rand's eyes, all the foreshadowing pointed to him going blind, but after the first chapter they stopped talking about it?

the true source part absolutely blew my mind, it was NUTSSS. i was like :O holy CRAP!

i dont know if neone else noticed this but i felt a few of the character's personalities changed. mat for instance came across as much more 'joke-y' than we've seen before, and Verin was pretty different acting too, though im not sure how to explain it.

oooo i almost forgot! what happened to the sword carrying woman who was supposed to save Egwene during the seanchan raid????? or im i miss-remembering something?


and GAHH they didnt show Perrin meeting up with Galad! :( what the heck? i hope they touch on that in the next book....


I also found the book to be very long, and especially in some parts, to accomplish not a lot. For instance most of the stuff with Mat... his scenes were a decent length but in the end they introduced very little...i couldve seen his whole part being condensed and stuck in the prologue like what happened in a few of the previous books.


anddddd im out of this to say finally lol. i actually really enjoyed this book, im just nitpicking a little bit right now :P
Roger Powell
356. forkroot
Jambo@355 (and many others above)
It's the "True Power" when referring to the power from the DO. The "True Source" is another name for the two halves saidan/saidar. I agree that it's confusing - blame RJ on that one.
F Shelley
357. FSS
Question for the group:

I'm still stumped at how Rand put the Choeden Kal access key in an "oversized" coat pocket. It supposed to be a foot high statue, right?

I've always thought the thing was kind of blocky (like the Heisman trophy), but is it tall and skinny? Is there a piece of art (fan art) or otherwise that shows how it looks? I don't remember one in the BBOBA...
Joseph Daly
358. Joed1414
Jambo
Rand will cry when he sees Morraine.
Sydo Zandstra
359. Fiddler
@FSS:

I'm from a country that uses the Decimal metrical system. And I always took the size of the access keys to the CK to be exactly as it said to me: about the size of a foot, as in the body part that's on the bottom of your leg.

Remember there was a broken Female access key shown in Tanchico. I doubt it was the size of a foot as in British/American metrical systems. Access Keys that size would be as unuseful as the main statues.

I like to think that's a prank on RJ's part to all you British/American speakers. :P ;)
Don Barkauskas
360. bad_platypus
Jambo @355:
oooo i almost forgot! what happened to the sword carrying woman who was supposed to save Egwene during the seanchan raid????? or im i miss-remembering something?
You're not missing anything, except that the vision never actually showed it happening during the Seanchen raid; we all (or most of us, anyway) just assumed that's when it would happen.

Now it looks like it will happen during Tarmon Gai'don (although it's possible there will be a raid by the White Tower to attempt to rescue the captive AS---I doubt it, and Egwene wouldn't be allowed to go on it even if it did happen) and I'm guessing Tylee is the Seanchen woman.

Fiddler@359:

Well, I'm 6'1" (185 cm to you :-)) and my foot is almost exactly a foot (= 12 in ~ 30 cm) long. Even given that the average person is shorter than I am and has a smaller foot, it's probably still at least close. So whichever measure you use, it's still pretty big for a pocket.
T C
361. Freelancer
FSS@357

I've always seen them as tall and skinny, mildly similar to this:



but with a small crystal sphere, no lightning bolt wings, no stylized posture, and certainly not gold plated.


Joed1414@358

Rand may or may not cry when he sees Moiraine, but Min will lose it completely. She still believes that a viewing of hers failed. Squee won't be in it for her.

Fiddler@359

And just how big do you suppose a foot is (that body part on the end of a leg) for someone of Rand's height? My feet are rather small for my height (6'4", less than Rand is supposed to be), and they are barely short of 12" in length. A foot is a foot, indeed.

Also, a statue smaller than the size of an adult male's actual foot would not have been big enough for Rand and Asmodean to both have a solid grip on it in the Rhuidean fight.

An oversized coat pocket could most certainly be able to fit a 12" statue, with the sphere sticking out (as is described in one scene).


Jambo@355

I don't believe that either of Min's viewings to which you refer have been fulfilled as of yet. Cadsuane has not taught anything to Rand and all the Asha'man. Cadsuane and Sorilea make a pact to teach him laughter and tears, but there's been no evidence of them accomplishing that either. And the blind beggar bit hasn't happened at all. His little walkabout in Ebou Dar when he is considering balefiring the entire city is not it.
Wilson Grooms
362. rimorob
Regarding Graendal's quiet exit, or Who Killed Asmodean?

One possibility to consider is that Graendal is dead, but not done 'exiting'. Semirhage was killed with a tiny thread of balefire. Graendal was killed with substantially more than what killed Rahvin. Remember what happened to Asmodean when Rahvin died? He got resurrected after at least half an hour, maybe more.

So here's a long shot: could we see Asmodean resurrected in Caemlyn? What about other actions of Graendal? For instance, is Alsalam coming back? Again, the amount of balefire used was very large, both as shown, and from the fact that the Aes Sedai could sense it from Bandar Eban. I would be very surprised if we saw no balefire event trail going forward. BS was too diligent in showing the magnitude of the event....

What does everyone think?
Thomas Keith
363. insectoid
Freelancer @349: I'll be at the SD signing, too. My mom and I are first in line. ;)

Still gathering my thoughts on the book.
Jacy Clark
364. Amalisa
Johntheirishmongol@230

I now think that finding Mesaana is pretty simple. It has to be Laras.


I don't think so... When Alviarin was having her last meeting with Mesaana, the one interrupted by the Dark One, Alviarin had a brief glimpse of the Forsaken. Tantalizingly familiar... just short of middle years... blue eyes. From a purely administrative standpoint, as Keeper, Alviarin would have known the Mistress of the Kitchens on sight. Also, Laras has been described as a very large woman, something that Alviarin didn't note when she saw Mesaana unmasked.

No, I think it is far more likely that Mesaana is masquerading as a relatively low-rank or average Aes Sedai, buried deep within an Ajah. Considering her origins as a teacher, I'm leaning toward the Brown sister on Egwene's short list.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I'm still digesting the book. I listened to it first, and now I'm reading it. My impressions to this point...

Rand isn't whining anymore. No. No more whining. Instead, he's scaring the hell out of people. He goes to a very dark place. And I don't mean Shayol Ghul. In fact, I think Shayol Ghul might actually have been an improvement. Which makes the last scene with him all the more satisfying.

Egwene. Made. Of. Awesome. She goes from Gandhi to Valkyrie in a blink when the Seanchan attack the Tower.

Verin... Sneaky, devious, heroic Verin. She actually managed to have her cake and eat it, too (washed down by a cup of tea). I cried.

Siuan and Gareth Brynn. "You sleep with your sword?" "Always." Laughed out loud!

Nynaeve - love, love and love her! She is walking such a tightrope here! Between Aes Sedai and village Wisdom, between duty to Rand and love for Lan. And Min's viewing about her scared me, although I'm hoping that it could be any other number of things and not what immediately came to mind.

Min. Poor, poor Min.

Tuon. Not smart, girl. A bad, bad move. Do not pit yourself against the White Tower (and by extension, Egwene, again) or you will be seriously smacked down! Although, right on for "Suffa"! Thanks for that! We owe you!

Tam. Gawyn. Faile. Aviendha. All had moments of "oh, yeah!" in the book.

Cadsuane overstepped her bounds in some ways (and paid for it) but in one very important sense, what she did may have actually saved the day in the long run. Even if Rand (and Tam) are/were majorly annoyed by it.

Two more Forsaken down. Or maybe one. We'll see. It really confuses the count when there's no body to identify, doesn't it.

Mat. "Groundhog Day" meets "Nightmare on Elm Street".

Like I said, still re-reading, dissecting, analyzing so any of the above is subject to some modification. I'm not at the point where I can debate authenticity of character (although, I agree that Mat seemed a little off. More like the boy that left the Two Rivers rather than the man who swept me off my feet when he swept his hat from his head after Tuon completed the marriage ceremony.) or start formulating theories about "Towers of Midnight". Although I do have an idea of how I would like for it to start, and will hold on to it until later. Except to say, what better way to prove you have left the "box" behind than to willingly walk into a box...

*goes back to reading*
T C
365. Freelancer
boromir@362

Two things. First, if Graendal didn't kill Asmodean (I'm in the camp that she did), the whole theory is out. Second, Asmodean has been gone months, it's hard to imagine Graendal's actions being nullified by balefire that far back, no matter how strong.

The dramatic buildup of Rand preparing the uber-large weave of balefire stands on its own, because he drew more from the Choeden Kal than during the cleansing, in order to make sure he hit the entire structure and left Graendal no chance of escape.

For those who think she isn't dead because there's no body to inspect, I submit that Ramshalan's loss of Compulsion is absolute proof. Nynaeve verified that he was under heavy Compulsion moments before Rand attacked, and immediately afterward he had no trace left. It took Nynaeve hours to undo the Compulsion on the boy, and it left him senseless and dying. Ramshalan's mind is fully restored. Only the temporal reversal of the weave could produce those results.

Graendal is toast.
Patrick Huff
366. pattack
Callandor Rand+Elayne+Aviendha, anyone else want to take a stab?
Wilson Grooms
367. Norry
On the things to bring up this year:

Now that we know Sheriam is BA, what does that mean for Chesa? I believe consensus was that she was not a DF, but a BA plant combined with Aran'gar removal of the other maids... :(
Wilson Grooms
368. Chriscot
Looney theory, about the men who need to merge thing...Rand's soul will get transmigrated into Moridin's body, and vice versa, possibly through help from Alivia. Or possibly Alivia will help kill Rand's body with Moridin's soul. Rand-in-Moridin will live on after Tarmon Gai'don, happily ever after with Minelayniendha, free from his many wounds and hurts...but in secret! Few, if any beyond those three, will know he's still alive.

Think about it - Rand and Moridin have to become "one", and there's some (lots) of slippage already. Moridin's hand hurts, Rand's in his dreams, Rand's using the True Power, etc. Rand has to die and live again - this would accomplish that. For Rand to live happily ever after, he needs to survive secretly - having the Dragon Reborn known to still be in the world would make nations and channelers too nervous. They'd never leave him alone. This way, nobody but those closest to him would ever know.

Oh, there's also Min's viewing about Avi and the kids - that Aviendha will have Rand's babies, but that there's something odd. The "something odd" is that the babies will be fathered by Rand after he body-switches.

It's a looney theory, and the last point about the father of Aviendha's babies actually gives me the heebie-jeebies...but I could see it happening!

Oh...and I'm surprised Leigh thinks the truth of Rand/Lews Therin wasn't settled in this book. I'd always thought Lews Therin was a real, separate personality until about 6 weeks ago, when I discovered Leigh's commentaries and read through 'em all. The idea she (and others, I know, but I encountered it here) explained, about the Lews Therin personality being a defense mechanism to contain the crazy, made good sense, and seemed to fit with what I was seeing in re-reads, like how much more developed the LTT personality becomes after the Aes Sedai put Rand in the box.

Anyway, this book seemed to settle the issue, with the "Lews Therin had never been there anyway" line at the end.
T C
369. Freelancer
Callandor and the "three will become one" vision has two possibilities:

1) Rand and the two saidar channelers with which he must be linked to use it safely. Elayne and Aviendha are the clear favorites in that business.

2) Reference to the three Powers joined. Saidin, saidar, and the True Power.

Since my take on the scene where Rand destroys the Domination Band (and then Semirhage & Elza) is that he pulled the TP from his connection with Moridin, it is quite possible for him to figure out how to use it without the Dark One stopping him.

But I'm not sure that's what it means. Both have merit.
Patrick Huff
370. pattack
Rimorob, I don't think Asmodean is gone I believe he will resurface in one of ther last two books. The king was probably already dead before the balefire attack. Mesaana has me stumped though. I have been wracking my brain trying to discover her identity to no avail. She has been described in the books and I am sure there are hints to her identity, but I can't make the connection. Wouldn't it be awesome if she was collared? One thing that I was surprised about in TGS was not the fact that Verin was Black Ajah, but that she was still a servant of the light in doing it. That definitely threw me. It would have been nice if Egwene would have named some of the sisters who were taken besides Elaida. I was hoping to have some more questions answered than questions revealed this time, but hanging on the cliff till the end ain't bad either.....
Wilson Grooms
371. Chriscot
Oh, about Graendal's death:

She always seemed cool (in a despicably evil way) and unflappable, and I'm sorry she died off-screen. Rand's plan was tactically brilliant, if morally bankrupt...and he explained his reasoning. How do you beat someone smarter than you? Don't play chess, smack 'em as hard as you can.

But some that have defended his action seem to forget that, in using that much balefire to burn so much from the pattern, he caused ripples felt miles away at a time where the Pattern *clearly* needs *NO* more stress. He could easily have tipped the balance there and destroyed everybody. That's why his action should be condemned, regardless of whether it was either right or effective.

Nynaeve gets awesome points for her strong condemnation of it, though...and right after he's done it, too. She sees how far he's slipped and how incredibly powerful he is, but she doesn't back down. And she condemns it in a way that shows she still cares about him. *And* she shows enough realism to question if he's right, enough morality and concern to, with Min's prompting, reaffirm that he's not right, and enough humility to go to Cadsuane. Very mature.

Re: Rand's aura, and the times he's asking people (Cadsuane, the compelled guy from the prison) "Do you believe I'm the Dragon and could stop your heart"...is he using the True Power in addition to his ta'verenness? Did he channel the True Power at other times than just when he was collared? I especially wonder about the time he goes all dark while questioning the Compulsed guy (just before the Graendal attack), and Nynaeve's and Min's tea immediately goes bad. That seems to indicate the touch of the Dark One being close, and True Power use would explain that. Thoughts?

Oh, Callandor+3...Rand, Elayne, Aviendha is a contender. Rand, Nynaeve, Alivia is also possible - the three strongest lightside folks (minus Sharina if she achieves her full potential, but Rand doesn't know her, and he knows and trusts Nynaeve and Alivia).

Random question: where WAS Logain in this book, anyway?
T C
372. Freelancer
Oh, I totally forgot...

Leigh, when Cadsuane turned Semirhage across her knee and spanked her silly, I came to the same conclusion you did. They wrote that scene just so you'd have a fit. What a mixed up reaction you must have had. I found it quite satisfying.

That is to say, with you in mind, I roared with laughter.
Sam Mickel
373. Samadai
looney theory regarding mins vision of nynaeve mourning the person Min doesn't see.

Nynaeve is mourning Lan and decidess she can't take it, she discovers the way to heal death.
Rand, Moridin, and Shaidar Haran are fighting,Rand reaches through Moridin and balefires shaidar. the dark one thinks its Moridin and takes his soul. Moridins body dies ans so does Rands because of their connection. Nynaeve finds Rands soul and causes it to inhabit Moridins body( which is already starting to resemble Rand.)

what do you think?
Henry Loose
374. schrodinger
Samadai hit on something in the above post. To stop Rand from channeling TP, all the DO has to do is kill Moridin and elevate someone else to his position.
Wilson Grooms
375. Chriscot
Re: Balefire

Why does everyone keep saying balefire removes your chance of rebirth? It removes your chance of DO-instigated resurrection-via-transmigration to another body, because per RJ the DO has to be prepared to grab your soul, and since balefire kills you retroactively, it happens before the DO can get ready.

But I've never been of the impression that you wouldn't still get spun back into the Pattern at some point. Have I just missed it all that time?

Because if so, then that's an incredibly horrible thing to have done.
T C
376. Freelancer
Chriscot@371

Nynaeve gets credit for what you refer to, but she still hasn't grown up regarding her bias that men are fools, individually and collectively, and cannot do anything right without a woman's guidance. She's worse than everyone calls Egwene on that count.

Also, Nynaeve's assessment of Rand's action is wrong, in the end, and her loathing of it had nothing to do with danger to the Pattern. What he did was right. Just as Nynaeve says to Min in this passage, a conventional assault on the manor would have killed Graendal's pets just as dead, and let her escape. His tactic was proper, wise, and cunning.

Now, let's look at Tam's talk with Rand. The question is not how you do something, but why. If Rand's why was wrong (and it was at that time), then even though the action itself was prudent, it harmed him further. This is the danger. And it is what Cadsuane is right about.

Ahh, I just remember something. johntheirishmongol@230, Laras cannot be Mesaana. Her own POV has her masquerading as a sister. I'm still quite strongly of the opinion that she's Danelle. How did she get her place among those who deposed Siuan and raised Elaida? She's a loner, she's not that old, she isn't in a position of authority. She's completely out of place among that group, and yet she's among the TAS sitting attendance on Elaida in the days following her elevation. As for Verin, yes, she can lie, but she's just committed suicide and is telling Egwene how to beat the Black. There is no reason for her to not ID Laras if she were a DF. Doesn't pass the smell test. And as Laras, it would be, for Mesaana, impossible to explain any absence from the Tower. If she were masquerading as other than a sister, it would be someone with no prominence whatever. The Mistress of the Kitchens, with her authority and responsibility, would be a horrible choice.
T C
377. Freelancer
Balefire death = permanent = forever. No more thread in the Pattern, no more being spun into it.
john mullen
378. johntheirishmongol
@364 Amalisa

What you may not have considered is that it is pretty easy for one of the Forsaken to disguise themselves and invert the weaves so that it cannot be sensed. If you remember in KoD, Semirhage was disguised from Rand and without Cadsuane's angreal Rand would have been captured.

I still am good with my theory, don't think it is totally looney.
Wilson Grooms
379. rimorob
To freelancer@365:

I think it's reasonably well-established (80% chance?) that Graendal killed Asmodean. So at least I can speculate on a solid foundation. In addition, BS had said he would revisit the question of who killed Asmodean unambiguously. If it was Graendal, then someone else must have known about it; but so far, we haven't seen any suggestive clues. It occurred to me an elegant way out to bring back Asmodean himself and have him reminisce about having been killed by Graendal just a second ago.

Most importantly, I was not insisting that Asmodean specifically would come back; I was just suggesting a major effect which would tie together with a substantial loose thread. My other choice was the coming back of Alsalam, but there may be other good opportunities which I've missed. I'm mainly curious whether people agree with this broader premise - that we'll see major undoings of Graendal's work in the future.
Jacy Clark
380. Amalisa
@378 John...

No, I took that into consideration. I also took into consideration Mesaana's absolute terror at being confronted by the Dark One, and Alviarin's own observation that the woman was tantalizingly familiar. I'm not sure that anyone's weave - including one of the Forsaken's - would have stood up to the kind of fear that Mesaana was experiencing. And if that's the case, why would she be two people in the Tower at once. Laras and the woman that Alviarin almost recognized? I still don't buy it.

Not saying that your theory is loony, by any means; this entire series has been chock-full of twists and turns - to the point that I could believe almost anyone is still capable of showing up as a DF. :)
Wilson Grooms
381. Lost in my own mind
Fav Scene: battle for the white tower. I have never been the biggest Egwene hater, but in this book she was defenitely my favorite. Her re-uniting the Aes Sedai after being raised Amylrin was also great.

I agree with leigh about Perrin and Mat, there story in this booked seemed pointless. By the way, Mat seemed very different to me in these books. His character seemed the place where I suspect the differences between Sanderson and Jordan shone through the brightest.

I didn't miss seeing Elaida's capture at all, it bothers me less than missing when Couladin was killed.

It also bothered me how the Seanchen administration of Ebou Dar was characterized. Remember they make everyone bow and scrape to their betters. I am still disgusted by these people and hoped that Rand would do some serious damage to them at the end.
DavidBills
382. DavidBills
@377 - Freelancer

Balefire death = permanent = forever. No more thread in the Pattern, no more being spun into it.
This is definitely not the case. See Section 2.3.07 of the WoT FAQ where Jordan addressed this at a book signing.
Wilson Grooms
383. Dholton
@377

Incorrectamundo sir! Asked and answered, see @277 for the correct answer re BFing.

New Looney Theory:

Ok, after reading other theories re Three to One, I will incorporate some into my exising theory. It is a Trinity of Trinities: Rand/LTT/Moridin + Avi/Min/Elayne +Saidin/Saidar/TP, three threes required to seal the Bore. Numerology shall rule the day!
Henry Loose
384. schrodinger
@Lost in my own mind 381

Mat being the first consort or co ruler or whatever his position is now that tuon is fortuona will probably have something to do with a more, shall we say, democratic system of government (although I highly doubt that that issue will be dealt with in the remaining books. It would have been an issue for the books RJ was planning for after he finished with Tarmon Gai'don, unfortunately, I doubt we will get those ever (or, at the very least, when BS has aged a lot and is ready to have another stab at WoT)
Wilson Grooms
385. spacechampion
Where do I go to report a misprint?

Here I am, enjoying my first read of TGS, and I come to page 224 where Gawyn finds out about Egwene being Amylin and captured, and he's sneaking out of Dorlan... only to see on the next page start mid-paragraph in the middle of an Egwene scene... on page 193.

Two full and two partial chapters are missing.

pages 193-224 are repeated, 225 to 256 completely missing.

Blood and bloody ashes!! It's too late in the night to see if my bookstore has a copy without this misprint and will exchange mine.
Wilson Grooms
386. Snowlan
Regarding the Seanchen and "bowing and scraping" -- actually the Seanchen seem (at least in the way they conquer people) a lot like the Romans. As long as you give them the respect they require, they pretty much leave you alone.

Here was the Roman way -- Come in with overwhelming force, professional soldiers, and superior technology. Once the locals have submitted, let them keep running their own affairs as they see fit, as long as they acknowledge the Emperor (or Empress) as supreme and pay their taxes. Raise a few of the local leaders into your own aristocracy (for Romans that meant raising a few provincials into the Senatorial Class). Build roads and encourage trade. Keep order, and uphold the law. Create colonies of loyal Romans (or Seanchen) to keep an eye on the locals, but otherwise let the locals continue their own existence. In other words, make it a clear advantage to be part of the Empire.

So . . . Beslan is still King of Altara; there is a new Panarch and King in Tarabon. The local lords keep their manors. Beslan is raised to the High Blood and is considering adopting Seanchan ways (much like Roman provincials who became Senators began to wear togas). It’s easier on the poor, because the Seanchen protect them from injustice and greedy nobles - even if you can’t look the Empress in the eye.

The Seanchen may dress and have a culture like the Chinese or Japanese, but they are governming like the Romans. It worked for the Romans for almost 1000 years or more, if you count the Eastern Roman Empire that we usually call Byzantium. No empire (other than possibly Imperial China) ever lasted longer than Rome.

Note: neither Imperial Rome nor Imperial China were ever democracies. Even in the days of the Roman Republic, it was really an oligarchy of senators who ran thing . . . Likewise, I doubt Seanchen would ever be a democracy either - even with Mat as consort.
Wilson Grooms
387. portia
Hi everyone; I am new doing this.
My feeling is that Rand cleansed himself with the C.K.; And that now, Moridin has not access to his mind.
I am looking forward to see an uncorrupted Rand to complete his reason of being.
Leigh Butler
388. leighdb
Freelancer @ 361:

My problem with the coat pocket thing wasn't the size so much as the weight. Your comparison to the Emmy is perfect, because I have had occasion to hold a real Emmy, and those suckers weigh a TON. I just don't get how Rand wouldn't be walking canted sideways if he stuck a foot-high stone statue in one side of his coat.

(ObFashionista: And it would totally ruin the line of the coat!)

Chriscot @ 368:

Oh...and I'm surprised Leigh thinks the truth of Rand/Lews Therin wasn't settled in this book.

Oh, *I* think it's totally settled. I was just giggling like mad because I knew how many fans would refuse to accept it.

It was the same thing with the Taimandred thing; even after Jordan said, flat out, in so many words, "Taim is not Demandred", there were *still* fans who wouldn't accept it. The Lews Therin thing will be no different. This I Foretell.

Freelancer @ 372:

*sticks out tongue at everyone*

*grumbles*

Other theories bouncing around in the thread:

I have a severe moral problem with the notion that the True Power (i.e. L'eau de TOTALLY EVIL) can or should be used to do anything Light-oriented. While I definitely agree both saidin and saidar have to be involved, I'm not buying the True Power trifecta thing, personally.

Laras is not Mesaana. There's no way.

You guys, Asmodean is not coming back. It's been over a decade. Let it go.
Henry Loose
389. schrodinger
@Snowlan 386

you bring up a good point... as long as I never had to meet the Empress or Emperor, I probably would have been happy living in Rome... happy is a loose definition of the word.
Pete Pratt
390. PeteP
Freelance @ 349 --- Not to beat a dead horse -- but in what way does anything Gawyn say or do in this book contradict the theory that he is having after--effects of Compulsion. He is on the edge of insanity and seems incapable of rational thinking and reasoning. His discussions with Gareth really strike home how bad off Gawyn is.

Like his mom, he appears to be suffering long-term effects from major Compulsion. Just because others may rationalize actions Gawyn himself is incapable of understanding does not mean Gawyn was not compelled to act in those inexplicable ways.
William Fettes
391. Wolfmage
leighdb @ 388

There's no way it's settled though you were gracious enough not to try to make that claim in the OP. At best, the line that they had never been separate is the best evidence of the construct theory we've seen yet - though I maintain there was never any good evidence for it in any prior book. So I can't blithely dismiss it now, but I do still feel it is absurd and disingenuous for the many reasons I have identified in past posts. Accordingly, I sincerely hope that such a magical mind diskpart gimmick isn't the ultimate resolution.

As Freelancer argues, however, that line is still entirely compatible with Rand and LTT integrating. He effectively goes from one soul and two personalities into one soul and one personality - neither entirely Rand nor entirely LTT. It's like Tomas and Ashen-Shugar, except without the reverse causation.

It's important to note that LTT wasn't separate from Rand under the real theory either, because they are both authentic personalities of the same soul. Rand has just absorbed LTT and created a new unity which he had been determined to keep. The constructers still have no good mechanism for explaining LTT's creation as a perfect agency from mere memories and all the quirks that Rand is running as a perfect VM.
Henry Loose
392. schrodinger
@PeteP 390
Wow.
can I refer you to one of Freelancer's earlier posts... i forget which one it was, but essentially, it was: not every irrational behavior is due to compulsion! and Gawyn is hardly insane, just conflicted, (also, he believes Rand killed his mother, so add to the conflict) No way is he under compulsion.

just let it go.
Wilson Grooms
393. mikauk
Regarding the 3-as-1 with Callandor, I just had a thought. Remember WAAAAAY back in the day when Moiraine said that Callandor in the hands of an Aes Sedai could level the walls of Tear? And everyone was like "SHENANIGANS" b/c it's a male sa'angreal? Perhaps this is Sanderson retconning (or maybe this was always in the plan) that Callandor works for saidin, the True Power, AND saidar? Although, the circle at the end of WH would probably have noticed, unless they just didn't try at all.

Just a thought.
Wilson Grooms
394. Laurel4Amyrlin
@385

That really, really sucks, man.


One of the things I really enjoyed on my second read through (yes, I am that kind of loser) is the amount of foreshadowing of later events. Rand thinks at one point that although he misses Tam, he'd probably lose it if they got together. Egwene when she's serving Elaida x1 thinks about how Elaida would feel with the Seanchan collar around her neck. Aviendha, when she goes scouting with Rhuarc and comes back, saying that she was the only Wise One scouting, then taking it back when confronted. Things like that make a book worth the re-read. Over and over. Until ToM comes out.
Wilson Grooms
395. MatFan
BS did a great job imo with two exceptions ( mat & perrin) you can totally tell he had no idea how to step into there shoes. I mean mat didnt even sound, feel or act at all they way he has over the last several books. Also perrin going through a midlife crisis with an issue that as far as any of us could tell was solved before going back to the two rivers. No love to 2 of the greats, rather disappointed hope to see better storylines and writing for both of them in the next two books.

Last thing seizing the TP while controlled by the domination band seemed a pretty far stretch, everything up to point in that scene was messed up awesomeness but i kinda wanted do a classic leigh headdesk/book toss
Wilson Grooms
396. woody_145
The one thing I keep going to is Verin. And the reason is this:(pg. 600) "I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be"
Then I go to Herid Fel's comments in LoC and he seems to be confused over the term "the Last Battle"
So maybe The Last Battle isn't a Dragon prophecy but a Dark Lord prophecy. (I hope Egwene reads Verin's whole journal in the next book) So, what I'm saying is that if there isn't going to be a "Last Battle" then do we really need the dragons from Alludra, or ANY of the other things that seem to be needed before the end? Because really, how can there be a last anything if the wheel continues to turn? The only way there can be a last anything is if Shai'tan(yeah I said it) wins.
I know Rand will go to Shayol Ghul, but I think the "battle" will be won with the "armies" stopping the darkfriends from coming too far inland, not with them at Shayol Ghul itself.
I know I'm rambling, lol, but I also wonder how Narishma "follows" Rand but Logain gets the glory?
You know I should have just waited three years and read all three back to back!
Eric Wooster
397. edubbs
Fortuona says something about how 'Tuon is dead'. Does this mean she's not married to Mat any more? Have we heard anything about the Empress, or any of the High Blood for that matter being married? We've heard one of the ways that they can become married but not met any that are I believe. How could this change their relationship?
Wilson Grooms
398. D. S. Crankshaw
You know, I wouldn't call the raid on the White Tower a disaster for the Seanchan. True, they lost a bunch of raken, and may have lost more damane than they gained, but if they got Traveling out of it, it's a net gain for them.

My theory for what happens to the Seanchan--ultimately, someone important discovers that sul'dam can channel (almost inevitable considering how many Aes Sedai they've captured who either know or can figure it out), and decides that it's a very bad thing that one is now their empress. He or she exposes the empress, makes her damane, and starts a civil war. Fortunately, Mat gets word that his wife's in trouble and comes to the rescue. The problem is, however much their attitudes will have to shift about channeling, I'm not sure the Seanchan'll readily accept a channeler as Empress. In the end, I think there's a good chance that Mat will have to take over the Empire, which could result in quite a few changes, although Tuon will have to be on hand to advise him on how to make those changes without destroying the whole thing.
Wilson Grooms
399. blitz23_ca
Laras is not Mesanna. In New Spring Laras is found already working in the kitchen of the White Tower, 18 or so years BEFORE Rand is found and the rest of the Forsaken are released. Aside from Ishamael, who was only partially caught in the seal, Aginor and Balthamel were the first Forsaken released, as the seals began to weaken on the Dark One's prison. Hence, Mesanna as Laras makes no sense.
Undoubtedly, Laras will turn out to be someone who USED to be of prominence in the White Tower. Likely a former Aes Sedai, maybe a former Amyrlin Seat, that was deposed or stilled. Which would explain Verin's certainty that Laras would NEVER consort with anyone or thing from the Dark side.
Wilson Grooms
400. seomen92
Great book. One of the better ones.

Quick Comments:

1. I always disliked Egwene. I thought she sucked. In book 11, I started liking her. She is now tied with Perrin as my favorite. That scene in the battle with Adelorna...badazz. That scene with Elaida and at the end with Sheriam. Classic

2. I like Rand again. I like that he found meaning. Jordan always said that part of the story here was how a group of country boys would react to being tapped on the shoulder to save the world. First they run, then they are horrified, then they struggle and fight beccause they have to. Now they are finding meaning in the struggle. Mat pretty much ran and ran and ran, but he is simpler, and I think a little better hearted in some ways than Perrin and Rand. A little simpler. He regrets doing stuff, but his nature lets him keep it in better perspective. Now Tuon has given him a sense of responsibility. Perrin dodged the wolves, then he focused on Faile. Now he is finding his meaning. I cannot wait to see the "Wolf King" in the next couple of books. It will be awesome. Rand carries the weight of the world. It has almost killed him. Now he knows why he carries it. I think he will come shining through soon.

3. Jordan once said that Rand was like a boxer on the ropes, bleeding, cut, and the Shadow was reining blows on him. But Rand still has a knock out punch, if he can only find the heart to go two more rounds. He just found the heart. I thought the end of the book was perfectly done. Perfect.

4. I missed a few of Jordan's literary devices, but all in all Sanderson did well. His style is much more clipped and less flowery than Jordans. I never thought that Jordan's prose was very good (relies too much on literary devices, pithy repetitive catchphrases, and overly drawn out descriptive paragraphs), but that his story and world building was second to none. Sanderson's prose is certainly suited to an action story, though he is a bit abrupt where a little more description would be apt. I was also glad that NyNaeve pulled her braid less, and that we were not inundated with the male-female dichotomy that Jordan pummeled us with.

5. Thom and Mat seemed out of character a bit to me. However, I really liked the scene where Mat wrote out everyone's aliases. That was funny. Everyone else seemed spot on.

6. Verin....was....awesome. I always said she was Black since she lied in Book 2 about being sent by Morraine. However, I also thought that she had or would turn good, because she appeared in the same book as the Sheinaran fellow who turned good (whose name escapes me right now).

7. The best part of this book was how it answered questions and did not bring up new ones really. Thank the Light!!!

8. I was bummed that we didn't see Perrin discover that he was traveling with Morgase, and that we did not see Mat in Caemlyn with Elayne. They'll probably come back to this since it seems a problem caused by splitting the book.

9. Morraine Morraine Morraine. Better be in the next book. She'll come back and team up with Rand. I really liked how he was missing her counsel.

10. Did anyone else notice that those Seanchan assasins were not all accounted for? Watch your back, Ms. Coolest Amyrlin Ever.

11. Can anyone else wait to see Cadsuane and Egwene meet? I hope it happens.

12. The scene between Tam and Rand was heartbreaking. Really well done.

13. The scene with Semihrage and Cadsuane. That was awesome.

14. Hmmm. Avhienda in the Waste and Demandred in some kingdon or other (must be Shara). Who wants to bet that Avhienda goes toe to toe with Demandred. The waste will be one hell of a spot for the Sharans to cross to invade Randland. Also hope that we get to see Avhienda go through the pillars and discover something important like her ancestor made Callandor or wrote the prophecies or something.

15. I bet the prohecy Min read about Callandor is Rand fighting while in a circle with Elayne and Avhienda....maybe Alanna and Morraine?

16. When did Mat go into 28 Days Later? Cool scene though.

17. What happened to Logain, Taim, Elias...oh yeah...there are two more books.

18. Balefiring of Graendal.....awesome. She was a wastoid anyway and I didn't want to see any more of her. I hope she is toast.

19. The scene with Rand and Ishy in the dream. Very cool.

20. I am here....Great closing line.

Do we really have to wait another year for another one? Ughhhhh
T C
401. Freelancer
Dholton@383

I considered the Rand/LTT/Moridin Triumvirate for the Callandor prophecy, but rejected it. You see, LTT isn't there any more.

LeighdB@388

First, on the Emmy, yes, heavy, but the weight is all in that large base. The Choeden Kal access keys appear to be carved from some shiny white stone. If the statuette is fairly slender and standing erect, there is no need for a broad base, and it might not be very heavy at all. Anyway, a small thing, fashion faux pas aside.

I agree that the TP is a no-no.
Do be careful! Don't lose any of that stuff. That's concentrated evil. One drop of that could turn you all into hermit crabs.
I would hope that it isn't part of the answer to defeating the DO, by using the **dark side of the force**, I mean the evil True Power. But the Callandor three-in-one prophecy makes it hard to ignore when there are three forms of the Power out there.


MatFan@395

With what little we really know about the mechanism of the connection between Rand and Moridin, it isn't at all implausible that one channeler could access a Power available to the other channeler. When a man and woman link, a person becomes able to wield and direct a Power which they cannot touch any other way. It isn't unreasonable to suppose that the crossed balefire streams of divergent Powers made such a thing operable between them.


Which reminds me, at least one comment suggested that the dark aura people were sensing around Rand was when he held the True Power. It is not, he did that only the once. It is that he has taken into himself, unwittingly or not, an aspect that is specifically connected with the shadow. Remember Rand's early dealings with Ba'alzamon, where it seemed that light failed near him. This is now happening with Rand (at least until the Dragonmount event, have to RAFO to find out if that's gone). It's a side-effect of having accessed the pure concentrated evil.
Bill Reamy
402. BillinHI
More comments later, as I have only skimmed the comments so far (stupid power outage cost me two hours of reading time last night!).

Egwene is definitely awesome here....BUT....she still thinks she can control Rand. AND her thoughts blasting Rand for "allowing" the Ashaman to bond Aes Sedai. Those women intended to still and execute the Ashaman. They got way much better than they deserved.

On the control issue, Min is about to really come into her own: she realizes (and articulates, I believe) that Cadsuane and all the rest should be thinking of how to help Rand, not control him.

I will need to re-read the ending particularly but I wonder about the "three become one" prophecy: could that be Rand/LTT/Moridin becoming one person? And is that what happened on top of old Smokie...uh, Dragonmount?

Definitely more to follow but need to really read the comments tonight and tomorrow.
Sid
403. Trigga
"Were in the box again!"
BEST LINE IN BOOOK
Thomas Garst
404. Garstzilla
YEEESSS, cool wonderful, great job. Agree mostly with everyone except about Mat. 345. Chriscot
Has it right by me except the one thing that so far no one has mentioned that I thought very important which was Matt accepting that finally that he was not going to find a way to stay out of things anymore. That acknoledgment on his part is the base of everything else that is going to happen in the next two books. Which has got to be big and explosive. Now if Leigh can come back and make the next rereads last until next book.

Great Job everyone.
T C
405. Freelancer
blindillusion@157

Finally had the chance to go back through comments, and needed to hit you up on the sword business. The scholars dug up the sword in Arad Doman. The male Choeden Kal is in Cairhien. Just because it was the only statue where we had previously "seen" work being done, doesn't mean there isn't other archeological activities going on in the Westlands.

The sword isn't Justice.
Bill Reamy
406. BillinHI
Overall, I absolutely loved this book. When I first read Chapter 1 on-line I really noticed the different voice of Brandon's but this time I didn't notice it at all. Of course, I'm not really a critical reader anyway.

Yeah, besides almost getting Gareth Bryne killed, the Bloodknives apparently didn't accomplish much.

I also think Elaida deserved more of a send-off (and I wonder if Jordan had lived to write the whole ending if we wouldn't have seen more of her exit) but she most definitely got what she deserved.

Rand and the True Power: extremely bad to say the least. Was that a result of crossing streams with Moridin? That is also when the black aura around Rand shows up: also due to Moridin and the DO?

Hurin: The reunion could have gone better but I agree that Rand needed to make sure that it really WAS Hurin. Not the best way to go about it obviously. And what's up with the Borderlanders? Is that Demandred at work or is he really in Shara?

Verin: Truly beyond Awesome. Sneaky just doesn't begin to describe her. I will sorely miss her. And can't wait to find out what she passed on to Mat. Another case IMO of how much longer the whole thing would have been if RJ had lived. He wouldn't leave us just assuming that Verin got Mat and the Band to Caemlyn, he would have described it in some detail. Of course, that would have meant six last books instead of three!

Rand on Dragonmount: He definitely _almost_ did the DO's work for him and by deciding not to that the three have become one (LTT/Moridin gone from his head). OTH the prophecies of the end of the Last Battle make it sound like Rand is not totally integrated at that point.

Gareth/Siuan: Certainly the biggest AWWWWWWW moment in the book!

That's it for tonight!
Ed Rafferty
407. BigBoy57
Loving these comments - what a way to waste a Saturday afternoon.

Just had to throw in a looney theory - re Graendal.

I always wondered about that scene where Halima/Aran'gar makes a play for Graendal during the FS tea-party in KoD. It never rang true to me, seemed to come out of left field, so to speak.

Here's the theory - Graendal wasn't at home when lover girl/boy came calling and Halima was the FS who did the compulsion on Ramshalan - thus exit Halima and lucky old Graendal gets to scheme on. Proof? uh .....mmm - I did say it was looney.
j p
408. sps49
I have to go into more detail on the Graendal/ Asmodean deal, apparently.

Whoever killed him hasn't been talking about it much, if at all. Has anyone shown signs of knowing second hand that Asmodean was kiiled?

Mr. Sanderson has stated that we would find out (or so I hear). Who can we find out from? Best and most likely is the killer.

Graendal is not around to take credit for the assassination.

Therefore the killer is someone else; someone still alive/ not dead.

BigBoy57 @407- If Halima had Compelled Ramshalan, then Nynaeve would not have sensed the weaves of saidin.
Pete Pratt
409. PeteP
Schrodinger @ 392: I did not bring up the Gawyn-Compulsion debate -- Freelance wrote
Gawyn. Rash, unstable, finally realizing that sticking with his first decision is illogical. Most definitely not a victim of Compulsion, just twisted judgement.


Again, this is not Gawyn we are introduced to in tEotW or that appeared in tDR.

We know that his mother (maybe one of the smartest and most capable female characters in the series before Gaebril) has suffered from post-Compulsion syndrome.

We also know that she is lucky to be alive because of the effects of having serious Compulsion being removed.

So, how do we know based upon anything in this book that Gawyn was not a victim, rather than just an idiot?
Wilson Grooms
410. SuffatheDamane
BillinHI@402

"Egwene is definitely awesome here....BUT....she still thinks she can control Rand."

No, she still wants to GUIDE Rand. She repeatedly says guide AND she refers to Moiraine's example, by which he is thinking of Moiraine's method of dealing with Rand - it's similar to how she uses Saidar - one has to submit to it first. That was one of Moiraine's cooler lines.
Pete Pratt
411. PeteP
No, Eg still is need of a major attitude adjustment with regards to Rand. After, Eg still thinks Rand needs someone to hold his hand and give him "permission", while Eg the arrogant beats down on people like Siuan and continues on her hypocritical path (getting fealty from AS while condemning Elaida for similar tactics).

Eg is much improved over the last two books, but she still is "dive-in with both feet" Eg, adopting all the ideals and principles and habits of groups she is associated with, which means here that she will find it very difficult to act as something other than an arrogant Aes Sedai, ruler of the world now that she is Amyrlin Seat of the United White Tower.
Wilson Grooms
412. SuffatheDamane
Making that handful of sisters swear fealty is not the same as Elaida ordering an Oath of Obedience.

And I challenge you to find any quote from Egwene's POV that indicates that she think she is the ruler of the world.
MERLIN SCARBROUGH
413. MERLINS
All right first post here, so here goes, i think that the book was well written for someone who had to try to emulate his fav author. You could tell he imprinted some of what he thought the character should say in certain situations that have left us pulling our hair and saying if he or she would only say this. You can understand how Rand slipped into madness very quickly,from the shock of loosing his hand to almost killing Min, i thought that by bringing his dad into the picture, hoped it didnt turn into a cheesy scene, would shock Rand out of it, but with him on the pinnacle of the world with the power to destroy it and finally finding his balance, and im glad lews is finally gone, talk about sour grapes. Now looking on it though i guess Rand was still seeing through the eyes of his ancestors, hmmm have to look into that and see when was the first he heard ll's voice, before or after the test for being a cheif. cant wait for the nexts but dang let them all come out at once we can handle it , house may not be cleaned for a week but life will go on , have a safe Halloween. (could go on for days but enough for now).hmm or before of after the door in tear.
MERLIN SCARBROUGH
414. MERLINS
oh and 1 more thing, whats up with the dark aura and him thinking he can stop your heart by saying the word, good thing him and Masma didnt hook up imagine them together, wow, and back to the halo. so i guess we now know Rand and the land are one, considering that he ruined all the food where ever he was going, kind of a king auther thing going on. now Rands found him grail lets see what its gonna bring. and you know that the dark one was licking his lips and rubbing his hands watching Rand be the nut job he was for a while.
john mullen
415. johntheirishmongol
Since it has become a talking point, I thought i would throw in my idea of the 3 to use Callandor, since I had not seen it yet. I expect it will be the two most powerful women, which would be Nynaeve and Alivia.

I don't think there is really any doubt Graendal is dead and gone. The release of compulsion was proof of that.

Before this is over, I think I want to see a POV from the DO. What is his goal? Whats the point of being evil if you don't have one? Does he want to challenge the Creator? It's an interesting question because just being evil makes little sense unless that evil has a goal.
Arvid
416. SoneA
@399
I totally agree. Laras is not Meesana. She wouldnt have the time to dissapear a lot, as you can say she is quite prominent in the tower and people would notice if she went missing a lot
Wilson Grooms
417. khouk
Personally, I love the book. I did notice a bit of different voice in the first chapter. But I understood that we had a different author writing in our beloved WOT.

But let's be honest, the WOT needed a different voice. For the last few books it seemed as if the Wheel of Time was never-changing and never-ending. A plot that could have been finished in one book took three (Faile, Shaido). This book took care to finish a lot of plot lines and didn't add a lot of questions that needed to be answered.

I also loved the way BS arranged the chapters. He didn't stay on one character for several chapters in a row, he jumped to show us different characters and the way they responded to previous characters decisions or actions. This prevented the tedium that previous WOT books were offering up.

I mean no offense to RJ, rest his soul, but I think he lost his edge while writing the last few books. In the first few books he had a definite start and finish. The first book is a great example, start with sheepish sheep-herder, end with killing two Forsaken and discovering his power. Book two, start with sheepish farm-boy just coming to understand more about himself, end with farm-boy having to become a man and fight a Forsaken in the sky. The COT starts in the mud and ends in the mud, with everyone reading it hoping that something they just read had a purpose. The KOD did move the pieces a little farther than the previous book and it ended with people expecting/hoping for a lot from the next book.

This book was amazing when compared to the previous books. It had a swift pace and it had a great ending, although it didn't end with a great fight scene, it ended with the Dragon fighting himself and winning. I thought it was very powerful.

Sure Mat was written with a different voice, but Mat was true to Mat. BS just had more fun with Mat than RJ had recently. I appreciated the comic relief. I actually hope that BS continues this, especially when Mat goes into the Tower of Ghenjei. That place is a serious place and Mat's perspective can only help to lighten it up. I hope we get a lot of Thom's perspective to balance a funny Mat, and I also hope that Olver bonks Noal on the head or something and finds that he is person number three. It is obvious that he needs to be that third person. Especially with the specific mention of him playing Snakes and Foxes just to find a strategy when they enter the Tower.

I'm a noob to this blog, but like some other people who have posted for the first time, we aren't noobs to the series.
Patrick Huff
418. pattack
I was under the belief that Demandred was in Shara amassing his army. Then, it occurred to me that one of the forsaken is leading the borderlanders as well. We also have one of the forsaken in the Black Tower. We know demandred has already built the army, but where is it? As far as Moraine being one of the three to weild Callandor, I don't think so, just not powerful enough. Remember the fact that she always had an angreal with her to boost her power. I doubt if she is even middle of the road when it comes to the one power. Lan is definately going to get some help. Nynaeve is not going to let him bear the brunt of the trolloc attack alone. Oh, no doubt he will have amassed a great army himself by then, but I am guessing some Aes Sedai are going to be there as well. Or Mat and his dragon lady. I read one of the posts of Aviendha maybe taking down Demandred. Although it is a possibility if indeed he has taken Shara, but I would assume that she will return to Rand with the bridal wreath 2 seconds after returning from the waste. My theory on the Black Tower is this, Elayne will give birth to the twins, team up with Mat and Aludra and wipe the tower from the map. This in no way will effect any loyal Ashaman to Rand since we know that they do not inhabit the tower itself, only followers of Taim. So, which is it, Demandred in Shara, the borderlanders or the Black Tower? Any help here guys and gals?
Susan Brownhill
419. SusanB
THANK YOU! THANK YOU to all who were involved in making this book! I think it was the best in the series so far! It was AWESOME from beginning to end. Great Job!

Loved the Verin reveal...it made me cry. Egwene fighting the senchan gave me chills (and after reading that scene I decided no movie or tv show could ever do it justice - it was just too beautiful & powerful).

So glad Rand is finally human again! At least that is how I'm reading his final scene. And as much as I was tortured by all his earlier scenes I wouldn't want the book to be any shorter. Anything less than what it was would have lessened the impact of the final moment.

Some thoughts about the future:
Mesaana - I think she could still be in the white tower and not be one of the 3 unknown sisters. I think she could still be someone important. In previous books the forsaken have often looked down on DF and BA. They don't consider themselves one of them. SO...she could have sworn the 3 oaths & said she wasn't a DF or BA & it wouldn't have been a lie b/c she doesn't believe she is one of them. She is a Chosen, something completely different. So, I think she can still cause problems in the future.
Seanchan assasins...I think we will see more of them in the next book. I don't think they are done yet.
Rand & Seanchan...I think his trip to Ebou Dar made him realize the S are not so bad. I think he will kneel to Tuon (hate her new name)/crystal throne in the next book. Therefore fulfilling that prophesy. I think he will realize it is a small sacrifice to have peace. Though I think one condition will be that they are not allowed to take anymore damane.

And I am very happily looking forward to Mat reading the letter from Verin. I think it must have something to do with rescuing Moiraine. I also am looking forward to seeing Galad reunited with Morgase. I really hope they show those scenes & don't just leave them with the little glimpses we saw in this book.

Again thank you to all involved, I really loved the book & have NO complaints.
Helen Peters
420. Helen
OK, I have a problem, and I don't want to be pelted with cuendillar cookies here.
The fight for the white tower was essentially a victory for the Seanchan. Don't throw that at me, I'll explain.
The 3rd oath is only use the power as a weapon in defence of your life, that of another sister or warder (why not us mortals as well? but that's a question for later). Unfortunately now the WT knows that the Seanchan don't want to kill marath'demane but to collar them. So now the AS know their lives are not in danger from a Seanchan bearing a collar. So if a group of Seanchan loaded down with collars turns up on the grass in front of the tower how are the AS going to defend themselves? This could be a reason why Eg was so much more effective than the TAS in the defence, she wasn't at that point bound by the 3 oaths and was free to do whatever she wanted (as well as being more motivated to avoid capture coz she knew what would happen, the others didn't coz who would have accepted what a novice said when brought back from Falme after running away).
Discuss please. Or shoot me down, but don't throw those cookies.

Regarding whoever it was up there who said get over Asmo, he's been gone for 10 years and isn't coming back. Well Mo has been gone a couple of days longer than him and we've known for years she's coming back!
Henry Loose
421. schrodinger
@PeteP 409

"Again, this is not Gawyn we are introduced to in tEotW or that appeared in tDR.
We know that his mother (maybe one of the smartest and most capable female characters in the series before Gaebril) has suffered from post-Compulsion syndrome.
We also know that she is lucky to be alive because of the effects of having serious Compulsion being removed.
So, how do we know based upon anything in this book that Gawyn was not a victim, rather than just an idiot?"
ok. to address these one by one. First. People change, and judging by the depth of RJ's work, he know that and added it into his books. (Gawyn is, as i said previously, conflicted by the death of his mother, his love of Egwene, and his role in the takeover of the tower.
His mother: she did not have the compulsion removed by a channeler, she removed it herself (with the help of a few loyal subjects) by being stubborn, she was fighting it constantly, and the person doing the compulsion was not very proficient at it, afterwards, she seemed to be fine, just a little shocked that she had been what? oh yeah, SLEEPING with one of the Forsaken! Also, her possible feelings for Tallanover could contribute to any weird behavior, plus knowing the facts of what she did while under compulsion, so she is not suffering from pcs as you put it (dazed, confused, irrationality in reference to decisions about good/evil).
Victim/Idiot: the only person who could have used compulsion on him, going on the fact that RJ was at LEAST a competent author, would be Massena, as she was the one in the white tower, where Gawyn has spent most of the time, the most compelling (yes its a pun) evidence for your argument is that Gawyn sided with Elaida in the tower takeover, something out of the ordinary, definitely. However, many Aes Sedai sided with Elaida on the premise that the tower needed her or whatever their rational was. Are you suggesting that ALL of them were under compulsion? So, no evidence FOR your theory (we will know for sure once we find Massena, if she does not mention it, your theory is completely kaput), and a lot of evidence suggesting that he's just an idiot (or at least, that he's not under compulsion).
Wilson Grooms
422. khouk
Helen@420

I believe that Egwene could still defend herself under the three oaths. The reason being is that once you become marath'damane you are not yourself anymore. Your life is over, as you know it, you end up becoming something than the AS you were, or even the person you were. So technically, your life as you know it is threatened. As we all know, this is the kind of rule-bending that AS do all the time. If anyone understands this, it's Egwene.
Henry Loose
423. schrodinger
For all of you Asmodean is coming back people... *ahem* to quote RJ: "Asmodean. Is. Toast." (emphasis mine), end of story, or will you continue to go against the word of the AUTHOR of the series?
Sean Banawnie
424. Seanie
suffa(squee !) @412:
I have thought of Egwene's oaths as 'loyalty"(fealty) rather than obedience
the protection and trust she gives them , an expectation of loyalty is not unreasonable. obedience to nutjob Elaida however......totally different. Even is she wasn't a nutjob which she is ,still too scary.
Pete Pratt
425. PeteP
Oaths of Fealty are oaths of obedience -- and something out of Aes Sedai procedure.

As for Eg --- Aes Sedai all think they are the top dogs of the world, with the right and authority to order everyone around. Eg, as Amrylin Seat, knows she is the queen of the top dogs ruler of everything. Do you really think she has any desire to make the Aes Sedai servants of all again? Please......
Pete Pratt
426. PeteP
As the BrS v RJ debate going on -- BrS is a good writer but not in RJ's league. tWoT did not need a new writer before RJ died.

Especially one who has changed the style of the writing by jumping from character to character at times, even in the same section without any transition, more of a 3rd person omniscient style them what RJ employed. I found this especially noticeable around the Zombie episode, as BrS jumped from Mat's thoughts to Talmanes' thoughts without any break. That whole section really was not written in RJ's style at all (well he did much better in other sections).
Wilson Grooms
427. SuffatheDamane
PeteP

"Oaths of Fealty are oaths of obedience"

Well, if you say so, I guess my understanding English, the definitions of 'fealty' and 'obedience' and the textual repercussions in the novels are wrong and must conclude that the books actual mean something other than what they say in writing.

Thank the Light you were here! I was so, so very wrong.
Pete Pratt
428. PeteP
427 -- fealty means a pledge of allegiance and faithfulness. Fealty implies unfailing obedience and commitment to duties and obligations.

Wow, do you really think the pledging to by faithful and giving allegience is so far from pledging to obey?

Split hairs, but they are functionally equivalent, especially when undertaken by someone under the First Oath. Eg was doing the same thing that Elaida wished she could do and was working towards.
Wilson Grooms
429. Be'Lal
Just realized: In CoT "Surprises," Moria is the Sitter who calls for an alliance with the BT. Now that we know that she's BA, the possibilities for the BT storyline get even more interesting.

Note that Sheriam, also BA, freaks out when Moria proposes the alliance. Perhaps Moria was being controlled by a different FS (Demandred?), while we know Sheriam was under Halima's thumb.
Patrick Huff
430. pattack
@ Helen

Little was known about the Seanchan and their purpose at the tower. Sure, Egwene knew what the raid was for and Siuan as well, but for the most part the Aes Sedai in the tower must have felt like they were under serious threats to their lives. Egwene was so effective because she kept her head in a crucial situation. I would also suspect that the warders in the tower were to be killed on sight and part of the third oath pertains to defending warders also.
Wilson Grooms
431. Aye Aye Sedai
WOW - what an awesome book - yes there are a few flaws but if you really thought there would be no errors flaw - you are living in a fantasy worlds :)
Really better that I expected after reading the chap 1 online - that was clunky and does not represent the rest of the book.

I had pegged AVI's trial right away - not because of Feist but because of the earlier story line on the demotion of the AS to Accepted (shemierian?) and EG taking her Toh - she decided when it was over- was parallel - yes it went on but remember that Avi was always too proud and looked at punishments with honor. My issue was the Rand coming out and cursing the heavens - felt like it was just written to match the cover and no other reason.

Felt that the ends of Massema, Semi were way too quick - Graendal ok - worked with the compulsion check, but really no more screen time ?? Was kind of expecting her to have been posing as one of the Merchant council and some intrigues - esp giver her tasks to keep the war going.

Wanted to see the Prophet get it from a Forsaken and not from Faile. Would have had a chance to answer more questions and a more fitting end.


Mat was ok - the banter with Tal was overly verbose and the scripts sceen felt out of place - now if another character had proposed the scripts then that would have worked better. Thought that Verrin's "pull" was forced but then she may have been lying and just lying in wait to grab them before any other DF or Forsaken- yeah I can buy that her forced explanation was a Lie.

So is her note to Mat a Lie or the truth - guessing that the BA oath is that "if I betray the DO I will die within the hour" so if you plan to die you have an hour of freedom. But was she able to work for the light before this final hour? IF the DF are looking for the horn would she not have provided it to them and not left it in the tower. Also why would Messanna not have gone and grabbed some of that T'er stash and made it seem that a BA had taken it. T shenanigans - should have been some peek after the end of the last book.

More to say later

Well done Brandon - few typos in my edition but no printing errors.

To Pablo - can we get an online posting of errata from earlier books - I don't being able to repurchase new hardcovers of the early books unless you plan to republish with the new covers - but it would be nice to have an official source - either online or in an appendix with the official errata/changes that Harriet/Maria.Brandon etal have done on the previous books. (for instance changing the reference to Faile's age, etc).

Thanks
James Hogan
432. Sonofthunder
Wow. Just finished the book last night in a glorious few hours...what a ride it was!! I don't think I can truly give it justice with a review, other than to say it met my expectations fully. While the style was obviously different from RJ, the characters felt RIGHT. Well, most of them at least(yes, Mat was my biggest problem). But in regards to Rand...I never expected him to fall as far as did in this book. I had no idea how dark this book would be. And journeying through the darkness...I had little hope of Rand finding himself again. So his glorious revelation on Dragonmount was spectacular indeed!! The haunting voice of Lews Therin, pointing Rand towards the only hope he had..."Why?" Magnificent. And his return to the Light was made even better by the darkness of his earlier acts(abandoning Arad Doman, almost killing Tam...truly, reading that almost broke my heart, seeing how far Rand had fallen). I could write far more about my favorite parts of the book(Egwene's lightning-blasting Seanchan from the sky is just too good!!), I don't want to write a short novel here myself! All I can say is that while there is no doubt we have a new author, I think he's proven himself worthy. And I can't wait for ToM. :)
Wilson Grooms
433. Dholton
@PeteP

The AS have NEVER considered themselves rulers (except in Tar Valon and it's surroundings). They specifically set themselves apart from the rest of the world, to provide guidance as the Servants of All. The whole point of the Three Oaths is to assure the world that they cannot threaten them with the One Power, and the fact they cannot lie gives them moral authority. There's a reason, when an Aes Sedai is sent to a country's ruler, it is not to give orders, but to advise. That's not to say they aren't arrogant, with a sense of entitlement that's been garnered over three millenia. But they still act, for the most part, in what they feel is in the best interests of everyone as a whole, not as rulers.

As for the difference between fealty and obedience, one simply has to look at the behavior of those that swore fealty to Rand, and those that were bonded by the Asha'man. Rand's AS begin acting on their own, interpreting what they feel is best in their service to Rand. On the other hand, the bonded AS are bound by obedience, and are essentially slaves. The Three Oaths would produce the same effect if they swore obedience as opposed to fealty,since they cannot lie.
Wilson Grooms
434. seomen92
Demandred is in Shara. They had an overthrow of their government, Graendal was his ally, and she suddenly has two Sharans among her pets. (See LOC) He's now consolidated his power. Look out Aviendha.

Also, Demandred was the "Dragon" that Masema saw. Demandred used Masema as a proxy and Sammael said in LOC, when visiting Graendal in Arad Doman, that events to the South (i.e Dragonmsworn rising under the prophet) had Demandred written all over it.

Given that, Demandred may be among the Borederlanders as well.

By acting through proxies, Demandred can be in many places at once.

I still think it would be great if Aviendha could best him. That would be cool and take him down a peg too.
Wilson Grooms
435. Michigan-89
I have not read the posts in awhile, but sitting here at work I got to thinking about TGS. (which means I do not have the book within checking distance) Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't the K cycle mention a prophecy about... and this is NOT verbatem... "He shall slay them with the sword of peace" I know it related to the effect he will have on the Aiel, but maybe the sword he now carries IS the sword of peace...

Any thoughts???
Patrick Huff
436. pattack
Before reading TGS, I had a chat with my best friend who is also an avid WOT reader and we were discussing how the female forsaken would be dealt with. We both were in agreement that Rand would not be able to handle them due to the " I cannot kill women theme", and even to the end of Knife of Dreams, that theory held true. Never in my wildest dreams did I forsee a Rand capable of not only killing one, but two in one book. I was glad that he finally found redemption at the end and stood in the light, but I do believe there are other female forsaken to be dealt with. I don't know if the new Rand will be able to stomach doing what he did to Graendal and Semirhage, so that leads me to believe Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene and Aviendha will deal with Cyndane and Moghedien. Don't know if a female forsaken weilding Saidin counts. I just hope Nynaeve gets to kick the crap out of the spider. I would guess I am not alone in that regard.
Wilson Grooms
437. Chriscot
Belal @ 429:

yeah, I've been wondering that too. Actually, I'm *really* disturbed to have Moria be Black Ajah; I gave her lots of awesome points for her actions in KoD setting up the BT alliance. A) Men and women need to work together, B) she showed that somebody in the SAS besides Egwene and Siuan could work effectively and subtly, C) she showed a remarkable ability to see the world as it was and adjust, instead of the normal AS-like trait of ignoring reality and expecting it to conform to your wishes. Her statement to Romanda about "We do be drowning" was one of the most honest and aware statements made by any AS in the series, or so I thought.

She and, surprisingly, Romanda (for her deus ex machina reveal of Halima), really impressed me in that book, and showed that the AS had more value than just the Supergirls.

So to have Moria be Black is really disturbing. Also, as you say, Sheriam was really disturbed by it, and Delana seemed pretty opposed as well...so whose instructions was Moria acting under?

Considering the way Delana had to keep changing sides to keep the SAS Hall balanced, I'd sort of figured she was the only Black among them...*sigh*

I LIKED Moria.

Sheriam I've not much cared for, but she was the strongest Black sister we knew of...but she just seems kind of pathetic.

I'm "glad" Alviarin escaped...she's a good villain.
Patrick Huff
438. pattack
@ Michigan 89
I did not find any reference to the sword other than in book ten COT "all that was, all that will be shall balance on the point of a sword". This isn't related, but i did find something interesting that I should have picked up on in reading TGS. In ACOS a small paragraph after the contents page lists all the wrongness experienced in the world in TGS. This is stated as a much- disputed translation of " The prophecies of the Dragon". Sometimes one question leads to another. Why Min or Cadsuane didn't pick up on this is a question I'll ask all of you. Maybe Cadsuane did know and needed events to play out first, but she doesn't even hint about a translation she undoubtable had in her possession. I will look on Encyclopaedia Wot and see if I can find an answer for ya...
Wilson Grooms
439. Michigan-89
@ Pattack
Thank you. Ya, I was reading TGS at like three yesterday morning and ran accross something along the lines of what I stated above. I believe it was when Aviendha was trying to figure out why she was being punished, and she was mentally reviewing Rand and his effects on the Aiel.

IDK, as I said I'm at work and this is not easily accessable at the moment. Thank you for looking.
Patrick Huff
440. pattack
Ok, this is just a guess. I did find the reference you were talking about and it states "he shall slay his people with the sword of peace and destroy them with the leaf". I think that this was his declaration after visiting Rhuidean about his people abandoning the ways of the leaf and the trauma it caused many of the Aiel. This could have happened already or is continuing to happen or it means that the Aiel will eventually all return to the way of the leaf. thus destroying their current existence, but not their entire race. I'm not real sure, It's only a guess. My oh my, this is fun to debate this stuff......
Wilson Grooms
441. Michigan-89
AHHHHH, so you view this as more of a generalization instead of a tangilble sword?

I guess it kind of makes sense. Because unless he starts killing Aiel with his sword it really wouldn't count as slaying his people with the sword of peace..... However, the aiel ARE starting to secong guess Rand's actions... maybe in the future?
Wilson Grooms
442. kab1
so many good comments!
@Blocksmith 333 re 298 obviously I was reading too fast! I totally missed what you said. I've been thinking about it more though, and a collar would really be too awful, I think it would be better if she came to the realization herself. Maybe by being forced to channel herself because of a awful situation she was in- needing to save Mat (or possibly even Egwene). (I'm assuming she could channel if necessary as Bethamine or Seta did when confronting Joline).

@334 prolouge. I'd love for Logain to be in the prolouge- totally missed him in this book (trying not to complain about it!)

re: Alludra's dragons. I think Elayne helping her with them makes sense, especially as she would have access to the metals/mines being ruler of Andor, but this also brings to mind Egwene's power with metals/ore. I don't have the book handy, so I can't remember what metals Alludra needed and if Ewgene would be able to help her out. But wait, Egwene's taken the oaths now, so I guess she couldn't help her, as that would be using the power to make a weapon. dang.

@ Free- congrats on the signing ticket!! I totally pictured the CK similar to an Oscar as well. Also, your comment about Avi's behavior had me rotfl (McFly!!!).

@Leigh, I'd agree that using the TP to battle the DO would be bad, as the TP is pure evil. but I aslo agree with Free@401, the "three become one" is tempting to assign as the three powers. I guess we're in RAFOland. Whatever the "three" refers to, I think that Rand is clearly wrong in stating that he will kill the DO, as the wheel must keep turning (I probably just stated something too obvious??).

lastly, a question for anyone who's a timeline junkie- How far along is Elayne in her pregnancy?
T C
443. Freelancer
Some of these responses will be out of comment sequence, sorry.

Aye Aye Sedai@431
My issue was the Rand coming out and cursing the heavens - felt like it was just written to match the cover and no other reason.

The manuscript was completed long before the cover art was begun. I don't know how selection of the scene to be portrayed on a cover is decided, though I'd guess strongly that Harriet has veto power there. I understand your feeling that way though. When the hole was burned in the front wall of the house, we all knew that's where the cover was from. Sweet clearly doesn't read the series for content though, or Aviendha's blouse would provide more coverage and less cleavage.


PeteP

Fealty is a pledge of service and dedication. It is not absolute obedience. An Oath of obedience to Elaida would have mad automatons of every sister in the Tower. It is quite clear that those sisters who swore fealty to Egwene are still capable of deciding for themselves where those lines are drawn. If you are set in your mind that there is no difference between Elaida's intentions and Egwene's, I'm not about to try and change that, but you've missed a great deal of what has been written.

I cannot believe you refuse to accept that Gawyn has never been under Compulsion. Simply compare the internal mental confusions of Morgase as she fights, resists, overcomes Rahvin's Compulsion. Gawyn never expresses a sensation even remotely akin to that. Elayne and Nynaeve were very briefly under a strong Compulsion from Moghedien, which she then lifted before leaving. They were totally disoriented, and began to see through it after a time. Different types of Compulsion, different circumstances, one milder but left in place, the other powerful but retracted, and similar mental states following. Gawyn? No, nothing resembling either. He doesn't act confused, but conflicted, which HE IS. He is rational and in control of himself at all times, but circumstances conspired to put him in a situation to choose poorly. Part of him begins to see this soon, but other things (the Younglings and their fealty to the White Tower for example, people he sees a need to provide leadership for) keep him in the wrong place.

Siuan was deposed in TSR, early in the book. Eight books later, about a year in story time, and not a word to support the idea that Gawyn was Compelled, other than his bad decision making. Speaking of which, if his decision making had not been under his own control, and he was Compelled to support Elaida, he would never have let Siuan and Leanne go. Now, which character during the last eight books hasn't made bad decisions? If that is your criteria, Perrin is under Compulsion. So is Egwene, Aviendha, Elayne, Cadsuane, 200,000 Borderlanders, etc.


BigBoy57@407

Nynaeve would have either not been able to recognize the Compulsion on Ramshalan, or would have been able to tell it was composed of saidin, had it been from Halima. Also, Halimagarthamel is not so quick to Compel someone as Graendal.


sps49@408

Yes, it would seem that Graendal's death actually acquits her of Asmodean's murder.


pattack@418

According to the Saidar Strength Rankings at the 13thD, Moiraine was at rank 12 of 21. Now that might seem only middle-of-the-road if you only see the numbers, but look at how few people actually exist at that level and above. In NS Cadsuane indicates to Merean and the other sisters that aside from her, Meilyn and Kerene, Moiraine and four others (Elaida, Siuan, Leanne, Romanda) are the most powerful channelers in the Tower. So there were 3 Aes Sedai currently alive at that time stronger than Moiraine. Six of the 23 names ahead of Moiraine on that list are forsaken. the rest are Aiel Wise ones, Windfinders, Kin, and Alivia the former Damane.
Roger Powell
444. forkroot
various@various :-)
Not claiming to speak for anyone else (but I bet I am). Want me to read your post? Try the following:

1) Break it up into paragraphs - when I see an unbroken "stream of consciousness" post, I skip it.

2) Do the little stuff. Capitalize sentences, try to get the spelling right. My Firefox browser underlines misspelled words, so unless I'm using a proper name or fantasy word I can fix misspellings easily . (Heck, it fixed "consciousness" in this post :-) )

3) If you "loose" something, you are releasing it. If you "lose" something, you have misplaced it. You should know this if you made it past 4th grade. For those of you whom English is not their native tongue, you get a pass on this one.

4) I'm a little put off by posts that start with variations of "I didn't read the posts, but here's my opinion". Would you walk into a room of people and say "I haven't been listening to your conversation, but here's my opinion" ?

I'll grant that there are a lot of posts in this thread. If you can't at least scan them, try using the browser search on a key word so you might catch some posts relevant to your concern. A search on "Laras" will save you from posting your pet theory that Lara is Mesaana at comment number 500.

5) For extra credit, use an on-line resource to get difficult names etc. correct. My personal favorite is: Encyclopedia WoT.

6) Consider registering your screen name, then visit us often. I tend to pay attention more to regular posters, typically because they've been participating in the conversations and tend to bring up new ideas vs rehashing what has been said before.

There you have it. You are free to ignore this advice - tor.com won't take down posts unless they are abusive or involve copyright violations (not speaking for them, of course). On the other hand, you wrote it, you'd probably like someone to read it, so bear the above in mind.
Patrick Huff
445. pattack
Hey forkroot, who cares for your condescending crapola,(don't know if crapola has one p or two) we are all here to discuss and theorize the outcome of this terrific tale. If a word is misspelled or if we aren't all English professors like yourself, who cares. This is all for fun and discussion. No one is being graded on it. Loosen up pal or better yet, just go away. I could care less if you read my post anyway.
Henry Loose
446. schrodinger
I agree with forkroot... and guess what, I'M NOT AN ENGLISH PROFESSOR! yes this is for fun and discussion, but you should care about the discussion and your argument to put a little effort into it; unless you don't care about your argument, in which case, you probably shouldn't post it, because if you don't believe in it, we probably won't be convinced by it.
Krit Petty
447. bgrishinko
Okay so funny story. We are out waiting for the midnight release at BYU (I got book #10, it was awesome), and just jokingly, during conversation, I said, "You want to know something that makes everything better, so long as it's outside the main plot? Zombies! I mean seriously, just look at Call of Duty: World at War! ... etc. etc."

Who knew that this little comment would hold true to Hinderstap. As soon as that happened, I started laughing so hard. I thought the scene was great, although pandering to pop culture just a little, I agree that it gave an amazing sense of the DO's influence in the world.
oire andrew
448. erio
here in uganda am just dying for the day i will have
a copy. when are ebooks coming out
Patrick Huff
449. pattack
I don't think you get the point. I agree that care should be taken. I believe that is a given already if you make a post to begin with. I'm just not gonna rub someone's nose in it if they don't quite have the grammar correct. Let's remember this isn't real life, it's a fantasy novel. I'm not going to be that critical of someone if they misspell a name or get the facts wrong. Not only is it just a book, but a very large series of books. Considering the fact that the posts go on endlessly, I'm not going to read a post someone made three weeks ago and say, "oh, I guess i can't talk about that because someone already brought it up" that's bullshit!! we are free to discuss whatever we want when we want. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I will leave that to the writer. I am only offering theories, which never hold water. If you are here to convince people your opinion is correct, then maybe you don't deserve to be read in the first place... Enough said!!!!!
Bill Reamy
450. BillinHI
Zombies: There had to be another way to get Mat together with Verin, which to me seemed to be the whole point of that chapter. We know the Pattern is unraveling already, we don't need zombies to reinforce the point.

Tuon/Fortuona: That chapter title (The Death of Tuon) freaked me out, especially since the chapter started with someone else! I really hope someone can show her (and the rest of the Seanchan) the error of their ways re damane & dacovale. I can't think of a worse societal aspect unless it's the Sea Folk and their total reduction in status of a windfinder who loses her wavemistress. What's up with making a competent (and necessary) crewmember start from the bottom like that?

Mat: He did sound a bit off but I think part of it may be post-battle depression/let-down. He won't ever admit it, I don't think, but he misses Tuon. (I was going to add post-coital let-down, but that obviously never happened.)

Verin's letters: Unfortunately, we don't have a clear timeline for most of the goings-on in the book, but my first thought was that Verin was going to pass on letters to (many?) others, but now I'm not so sure. RAFO, I suppose, although we better find out in one of the last two books.

WT problems: I still wonder how much of their problems are the result of Ishamael's work early on. Another thing we'll probably never find out for sure.

Graendal and her minions balefired: Certainly won't miss her (and I do think she is dead: the compulsion being gone is my big clue.). And look what happened to her minion that Nynaeve "cured" of compulsion: he died within minutes. There's just not enough left of the person to continue with compulsion.

Towers of Midnight: Being plural, does that refer to both Ghenjei and the Black Tower? I definitely want to know what Taim is up to.

Tylee: I agree she should be massively important to altering Fortuona's mind-set - which certainly needs to be done.

Elaida: Have to agree that Fain accelerated her downward slide. She was never the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I don't think she would have gone so far into idiocy/insanity without Fain's touch.

True Power/True Source: I know everybody assumes that only the DO can grant access to the True Power, but is this actually the case? Obviously he can (and does) forbid the Forsaken from touching it (except for Moridin), but does the True Power actually "belong" to the DO? Or am I confusing True Power and True Source?

Helen @233: I don't think Verin was turned if she was given a choice (swear or be executed). I think she had the cojones to believe she could be the Light's double agent and then proceeded to prove it over 70+ years.

For(tuon)a and channeling: Tuon knows at least theoretically that she can learn to channel but says she will not learn. Not necessarily one of her brighter moments. Hopefully she will come around.

Lily @106 et al re NPH: I also plugged "...wait for it...." into that phrase! LOL
Noneo Yourbusiness
451. Longtimefan
Just my two cents about Zombies and the lack thereof in the new book.

They are not Zombies in the small town. They are people who are alive under the taint of the Dark One.

They may not be able to leave the location and that would be more of a "ghost" limitation but they are clearly not "spirits".

The prevalence of zombie lore in current media culture does not mean that when someone turns into a murderous, nonspeaking fiend that they are automatically zombies. They are not the undead. They are people under a terrible curse that only applies itself at night and vanishes with the morning.

Also current zombie lore is far from the original zombie story which is about raising the dead for manual labor and the occasional murder of a rival or the eventual attack on the voodoo practician who raised the zombie in the first place.

I realize this may not change the current opinion that the characters in the town are "zombies".

Personally the casual categorization just seems a bit lazy and misses the point the author is trying to make about the horror of being under the Dark One's influence to the point of being a murderous animal with no future but destruction.

Also if they were "zombies" they would not stay down when "killed" by the outsiders or by the other villagers.
Patrick Huff
452. pattack
You know I never even considered Padan Fain's affect on Elaida. Thank you BillinHi for pointing that out. Perhaps she was under his influence after all. It might just be that she became power hungry and couldn't handle it. You know what they say "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Patrick Huff
453. pattack
Sorry freelancer, I was under the assumption that Moiraine was weaker in the power. I guess I'm just used to all these weapons of mass destruction like Egwene, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Cadsuane, Elayne and Alivia to name a few that would hold a better chance with the link. My bad.....
Wilson Grooms
454. NobleHunter
I'm surprised no one has commented on the complete fail of the Green Ajah during the attack on the tower. Especially since people have been beating on them during the re-reads. Hopefully they've learned their lesson and can be something other than the Ajah of I-really-like-men-a-lot.

And I wonder if the screwiness of the timelines in the book is designed to evoke the Pattern unraveling.
Wilson Grooms
455. Cadsuwallop
Aye Aye Sedai @ 431

If Verin could develop a cipher and keep a notebook for 70 years then I think she should have been able to write a note/instructions for Mat.

If, as part of her oaths as a Black, she couldn't THINK of betraying the dark, she would have had to convince herself that she was keeping the notebook for "dark reasons" just to be able to write it. 70 years is a long time to maintain an internal self deception.

If she could consider betrayal prior to her final hour, then there is no reason she shouldn't be able to write instructions for someone else.
Henry Loose
456. schrodinger
@pattack 449
I think you missed my point. we are here to, aside from convince people that our ideas are plausible, to be convinced by others that their ideas are plausible. I know that (for example) Freelancer has convinced me of many a thing during these discussion threads... forkroot's calm argument went along with several feelings that I have had while reading posts (it IS annoying when people bring up dead topics, and although I agree, 3 weeks (or even one week is to much to go back and read all the posts, but less than a week, while we're still under 500? I went back and read 'em all). Your (what i perceived to be) angry comments were less welcome with me, so I sided with forkroot's comments. What I am talking about when, as you put it: "oh, I guess i can't talk about that because someone already brought it up" is not that discussion should stop, but that it should be added to with new ideas, or started with the phrase: "I agree with..."

As you say "we are free to discuss whatever we want when we want" we chose to discuss the merits of our fellow posters' posts and what makes them good or what makes us read them, It was not meant to offend, and was actually meant to be constructive. I could say that "anger has no place here, and maybe because of that you don't deserve to be read". Or I could be nice and tell you (as I believe) that I think you should continue to post, as your ideas are valuable to the discussion, as are most everyone's on here. So relax and let us be nitpicky... it doesn't mean that you have to be ;-)

edit: 'nuff said
j p
457. sps49
Dholtan @433-

What books are you reading? Whatever their reasons, the Aes Sedai today expect everyone who is less than their equal in saidar to do as they say. Call it deference, call it advice, but in effect they rule. With no accountability.

The Amyrlin Seat has effectively been ruler of the Westlands. And whether she thinks of it in those terms or not, Egwene apparently is thinking like the West's top dog, with everyone else subject to her approval, tacit or otherwise.

I still think Demandred's army is the Black Tower (discussed in the pre-release postings).

And does anyone else wonder whether Sammael has been reincarnated yet?

Forkroot @444-

Mostly agree with you (with a ha! at Lara), but some commoon errors, i. e. "loosing" misuse, are because what spellchecker can tell you mean "losing"?

Also, if one posts while ignoring prior posts, why should anyone read that one's?

pattack @445-

Forkroot may have come across as a bit condescending, but the communication here consists only of writing- no voice inflection, no visual cues. So if we want our meaning to be understood, yes, we should try to use good writing techniques. We aren't being graded, but the real world is still grading us -on results.

As an example- Fain's effect on Elaida has been brought up in posts 141, 154, 175, 252, 450- and that's just this thread. BillinHI is agreeing with someone else about Elaida and Fain, so thanking that poster for pointing it out looks a bit off.

This thread is a tough one with the number of posts, but even before 100 posts we had the same Mat complaint, over and over.

Please don't get too defensive; you have brought up good ideas.
j p
458. sps49
Noblehunter @454-

I think other AS at the Tower mentioned the Green's lack of effective action; even the Captain-General (ha!). But, yeah, what good do they expect to be at TG? Do they at least take combat training in the Blight?
Wilson Grooms
459. Sluggonics
So, subscribing to the theory that Danelle is Mesaana in the tower, is it likely that she simply retook the three oaths with all the other sisters, and that she wouldn't have had to lie when she stated she's not Black Ajah-- since she's not.

I suppose that does bring up the question of what taking the three oaths could end up doing to her disguise, or her ability to lie at will. We don't really know how the whole "ageless" thing works, and whether "activating" it would cause some sort of interference or disruption of disguise weaves.

Presumably, if Mesaana just killed off Danelle and impersonated her, she NEVER took the 3 oaths originally. Would she even know what taking them would do to her? Maybe she just left the tower? Unfortunately, Danelle never came up in Egwene's musings.
Wilson Grooms
460. khouk
sps49@457

I agree with you. Demandred seems like the only possible choice for who runs the Black Tower. I'm unsure about the evidence against, since I can't find any. But since he has said that his army is ready, it seems to me that it is pretty clear that Taim's Ashaman at the Black Tower are pretty ready and that they are obviously DF, ala "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule." It also seems that Rand is starting to draw pretty heavily on the other Ashaman to assist in his other conquests.

If there is anything that I'm missing that would disprove this theory, I would love to hear it.
Wilson Grooms
461. Dholton
@457 sps

I merely bounce the question back to you.

The Seanchan rule. They have a standing army that occupies and keeps the peace. They have an empire they rule through local monarchs. They enforce laws. They have a system of informers, to catch those that break their laws.

The Aes Sedai do not rule. They influence. They guide. They advise. They mediate. They do not have a standing army to enforce their rule or conquer others. The Gray Ajah attempted to maintain the Grand Alliance formed against the Aiel. They failed. Is this rule? The Grays have mediated many treaties between countries whose rulers have subsequently repudiated said treaties. Would a ruler allow this? Berelain has an Aes Sedai advisor whose advice she ignores. Is this rule?

Again, I bounce your question back to you.
j p
462. sps49
Dholton @461-

I shouldn't have started off like I did; tone doesn't come across well when typing.

The Seanchan rule with an iron fist. Too tightly; it took then a looooong time to pacify just Seandar. If the Westlands were not a weak confederation (under the Amyrlin Seat) squabbling among themselves, the Senchan would have been pushed back at their every attempt.

I don't know why the Grand Alliance failed, but they had served their purpose; the Grays may have put in a perfunctory effort for appearances. Bottom line is that the Aes Sedai receive tribute from rulers who are well aware that, if they stray too far from their "advice", can be overruled (Siuan vs. Morgase & Brynn re: Gheldean), kidnapped- or killed.
Patrick Huff
463. pattack
I am passionate about what I do in every aspect of my life. I don't half ass anything I do. It's passion that keeps me reading great stories like this one. If I were critisized because I misspelled a word or didn't quite get a paragraph cut just right, it would destroy the credibility of my post. If it was constantly pointed out that is. This is about ideas, thoughts and theory, not english class. Let's try not to be too critical and help each other, not tear each other down by pointing out flaws in writing, rather point out flaws in theory. At least that can be argued. It just pissed me off is all and for that I am sorry. I would rather discuss the books anyways, that's why we all come here.
Patrick Huff
464. pattack
If Rand was as smart as I think he is, he would attack Seandar on their hometurf. Let's remember he was there with Aviendha in TFOH. Perhaps that would draw the army back across the ocean (Since they can now make gateways). I don't think the Seanchan would even be aware of an invasion as long as saidin was used to make gateways. I was reading the prophecies of the dragon and it states that the daughter of the nine moons would be bound to the dragon. What I did not find was any referance that Rand was to kneel before the crystal throne. Did anyone find any info related to this anywhere? I know Tuon had stated it on occation, but that was the only place I found it said.
Jonah Feldman
465. relogical
A few thoughts and questions:

So, Rand and Moridin have a connection. Callandor is turning out to be more important than we thought. Rand killed Ishamael with Callandor. Coincidence? I think not.

Give Sanderson a break about Mat. I found him fun, if not in the same way.

And I'm going to assume that RJ came up with the Hinderstap story; there's no way BS would just add it for the hell of it. Besides, we saw some similar weird stuff in The Great Hunt.

My crazy theories for this book were Mesaana=Laras and Demandred=Bashere, but now I'm not so sure.

I'm wondering what Rand will be like once he gets back. He wouldn't apologize, right? That's just not how WoT characters do things. I hope he and Tam can work it out, though. Cadsuane was smart enough to realize that no one would have a better chance at getting through.
j p
466. sps49
pattack @463- it wasn't just you in the first place, I am sure. one of our most beloved and respected posters still uses "must of" instead of "must've" or "must have", but he gets his points across very clearly due in part to use of positive techniques listed in part by forkroot.

Since you brought it up- whether because of your passion or not, your posts come across as half-assed. We are really trying to help.

For instance- and recall it isn't just you- forkroot didn't pick at a paragraph cut just right, the constructive criticism made was that breaking a post (especially longer posts) into paragraphs makes it easier to read and comprehend that a single long paragraph. This is similar but more subtle that why ALL CAPS is tougher to read when used for more than a few words.

Like I said- well, wrote- earlier, it is harder to get a theory or idea across when typing than when someone is sitting across from you, so some care in writing is just a good idea.

Back to the theories! *swoosh*
Henry Loose
467. schrodinger
@pattack 463+464

:-)

It would be smart from Rand's pov to do that, however, he does not know that Seanchan is already in Chaos and that Tuon has essentially signed it off for a later date. Tuon was referring to the Seanchan version of the K Cycle, the Essanik cycle (which I assumed at first was Seanchan propaganda).

She is bound to him through Mat and my theory is that he will bow to her to get peace for the last battle. I don't think his bowing is mentioned anywhere else.
Roger Powell
468. forkroot
pattack
Hey forkroot, who cares for your condescending crapola,(don't know if crapola has one p or two)
Actually I thought that was a pretty funny retort, insult aside.

I also see how the post could be considered condescending based on the gratuitous comment about the 4th grade. My bad on that one.

That point aside, I'll stick to my guns on the rest of the post. Note that I didn't say "this is how you should post", I said "this is what you should do to encourage people to read your post".

Stripping out the ad hominen stuff, I believe your argument is that minor misspellings shouldn't matter. That's certainly a reasonable stance and despite what you might think, I tend to ignore those, if I even notice them.

The posts that are hard to read though, are the ones with constant misspellings, lack of punctuation, and no breaks.

The funniest thing is that I would not have characterized any of your posts that way. Scroll back and take a look, you'll soon see what I'm talking about.

As for the other stuff - remember again that I am talking about what makes me likely to read a post. As a rule, I tend to read every post; however from time to time we've had posters that I just skip over, based on what they've written before. I would not put your posts in that category, and despite the lash out, I intend to continue reading what you have to say.

Unless you start mixing up "loose" and "lose" ...(just kidding!!)
j p
469. sps49
@464-

If the Crystal Throne refers to the actual throne- I think it is another ter'angreal- then yes, Rand has to go to Seandar. If the prophecy is figurative, then Fortuona (ugh, bring back Tuon!) is already nearby.

I think it is more difficult than before to unite Rand with the Seanchan. I think they have to compromise on marath'damane, especially since sul'dam are just potential damane themselves.

But if ForTuona simply states her ability now, she might get deposed unanimously.
Ross Hathaway
470. RossH
Thanks to everyone who made this book happen - I really liked it. Before when I said I felt sort of removed from it, I was just comparing the first and second chapters to how I felt at climatic parts in other books. I really liked how the end was non-violent, a personal triumph for Rand, rather than some battle. This was very inspirational for me. His thoughts during the visit to Ebou Dar make me wonder if he will bow to Tuon or compromise his pride in some other way to gain her allegiance. Putting the killing of Graendal at a sort of random part in the book was cool too. I don't know why exactly; it just was. I wondered why we didn't see Aviendha after she went to Rhuidean, though.
It seems like the tables are always turning on people in the WoT. That's the way I like it. The turning tables of time.
Good luck mateys
Ross
Jacy Clark
471. Amalisa
Dholton and sps...

And therein lies the problem with the perception of the Aes Sedai - both inside and outside the White Tower. It's a problem that needs to be solved before the Last Battle. Perhaps it is something that Egwene will learn from the Seanchan - courtesy of the woman in her dreams who offers a hand and says they can make it to safety together. (Tylee or Egeanin/Leilwin, I believe. I can see scenarios fitting either one.)

Anyway... back to my point... (was channeling Verin for a moment there.)

There are Aes Sedai within the Tower who certainly believe that they, as a group, rule the world. Ego + great power can generate that sort of delusion of grandeur. There is a perception among the common folk that Aes Sedai pull the strings of rulers from time to time. (I wonder how many rulers might have used that perception to shunt the discontent of the people from the throne to the Tower after some sort of unpopular action or ruling. Two can certainly play that game.) But Dholton is right: influence does not equal rule.

On the other hand, influence can be a powerful thing. But influence tends to be more immediate and focused - to one decision, one campaign, one area of concern, with the intent of achieving a specific goal. For example, Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin influencing Morgase to pull Gareth Bryne away from the border or Murandy with the hope that a stable Murandian monarchy might result. As for kidnapping... I don't know that there is an exact count but I'd be very surprised if more than dozen monarchs have been made involuntary guests of the Tower in three thousand years. Sure, that's probably a dozen too many but, still... Same for killing. Far more likely that the Tower has either let nature take its course or failed to reach a ruler in time (à la Malkier).

As for the "tribute" thing... I'd be interested to know exactly when that originated. Maybe waaaay back when the White Tower was formed? Early on, when the Aes Sedai were seen as the first line of defense against male channelers? More likely at the behest of the Aes Sedai advisers to the thrones... I'm sure it's a chunk of change (certainly came in handy for the rebels) but hardly essential since I'm sure the Tower's primary source of revenue is the city of Tar Valon, itself.

Eh... still channeling Verin. Sorry about that...

Bottom line. Agree w/ Dholton. Aes Sedai don't rule, they influence. And it ain't the same. But from sps' viewpoint, a ruler who fails to listen to the Tower, does so at his or her own peril.
T C
472. Freelancer
pattack,

I accept that you will quickly view me as your enemy, and there's not a thing I can (or care to) do about that. Understand that before I continue.

Forkroot is a very common and well-respected commentor on Leigh Bulter's WoT reread blog. Be assured that he is as laid-back and tolerant as any there. I say this knowing that I am often considered one of the most judgemental commentors on those threads, an opinion I take no special action to diminish.

His statements @444 are, if you read very carefully, never aimed at an individual, neither are they designed as criticism. He points out less-than-preferred commenting techniques with the intention of helping some commenters to get their posts taken more seriously, or not ignored altogether. All-in-all, there's not a condescending thought in the entire post. Exceptionally defensive behavior in yours, though.

When a debate arises over something from a plot (such as whose sword Rand now carries, and why does he remember it), I give little to no credence to someone engaging in the debate if they cannot even spell the names of the principal characters correctly. (such as Lewis Tharin)

As for "stream of consciousness" type posts (see 413 or 418 for examples), they are difficult to read and when the thoughts jump about like a drunken butterfly it's hard to decide if the post is even worth the time. (You'll note that I did take the time to respond to you @418, only because I saw that you spelled all the relevant names correctly, so there.) Forkroot didn't say he'd grade you on how and when you broke paragraphs, but that if your post has none, he is less likely to read it or take it seriously.

Forkroot's purpose was advice on how to have your thoughts seen as credible on such a forum. And he is correct. My advice is, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't try to squeeze into it then complain that it isn't yours. If, however, it does fit, don't make yourself look stupid by slipping it on, then yelling at the cobbler.

(By the laws of forum posting, I'm sure there's at least one misspelled word above, have fun.)
Wilson Grooms
473. Dholton
@462 sps

I was wondering if you'd bring up those examples. *sigh* I grant you those would seem to refute my argument. However, as I said once in a post on the LOC recap thread, the position the Aes Sedai have chosen to take is one balanced on the edge of a knife. Rather than integrate themselves into Randland society, ala the Aiel Wise Ones or to rule :-) as they do in Shara (if behind the scenes), they have set themselves apart from society in what you might call the "Gandalf" role.

To do this, without becoming rulers or even despots, they have limited themselves with the Three Oaths. Over three millennia they have built up their influence, and yes, power through their reputation for wisdom(hah!), mystery of the One Power, and economically (I believe they established the first bank in Randland. Ask the Knights Templar if this didn't give them power). But all this was to provide guidance and arbitrate for the good of all, not to govern.

Now they may fall to one side or the other of that knife edge. Elaida's kidnappings were the first in centuries I believe, and an aberration. Siuan was always something of a blunt intrument as well, and I don't think she would have tried what she did with Morgase with anyone else, due to the special relationship between Andor and the Tower.

It's a very narrow path they walk, and there will always be those like Elaida who don't understand this and stray.

Anyway, enough of angels on pins debates. More Looney Theories!
j p
474. sps49
Amalisa @471-

Channeling Verin? So you are sworn to not betray the Great Lord until the very hour of your death? I clear my nose at you!

No, I don't, not really. This is a disagreement of degree, though, not like whether Gawyn was Compelled or not.

And whether Egwene thinks of herself in those terms or not (probably not), she does want the final say in matters she wants to have it in, and it does not occur to her that it isn't necessarily so.

Dholtan @473-

Yes.

But nobody is paying attention to my Loony Theory of Sammael's resurrection! bawwww! I know Mashadar got him and that RJ said he is "toast", but that just means he is dead. I mentioned in one of the pre-release threads that there was someone at the Forsaken meeting who had an unusual amount of authorial attention, and usually when RJ put these in, we usually read them correctly.

Where is Sammy?
Patrick Huff
475. pattack
Ok I found it at last. In chapter 6 of TDR, Moiraine is talking about the prophecies of the dragon and that one of them mentioned kinda off handed was that the dragon would bind the nine moons to serve him. I wish I had a copy of the prophecies myself, because it would be easier to find this stuff. I even scoured the Encyclopaedia Wot website and this little bit of info wasn't in there. I guess another meeting will take place with the Dragon and Fortuona.
j p
476. sps49
The WoTFAQ (all hail) has a section listing Prophecies through CoT.

EDIT: Tuon's version is in Winter's Heart, Chapter 14.
Patrick Huff
477. pattack
Freelancer, I don't think anyone here is my enemy. Every poster on here has a right to their opinion, whether it be about grammar, the price of tea or a thought provoking arguement. I just want to have discussions on what has and what might happen. Not have someone grade my writing skill or lack there of. If someone doesn't want to read a post because it's too long or rambling gobbledygook it is their right as well. This is a non issue with me because it is an opinion on what one person will read or won't. I for instance won't read long posts or posts with 20 numbers in front of twenty points. That's just me, give me one or two ideas and it makes it easier to respond. I should not have gotten mad. Should have used bolder type I guess....... LOL
Kelly Houk
478. conanoxen
pattack@475

I think it is true that Tuon is bound to Rand through Mat. But there also needs to be something else to make them work together. Another meeting will have to happen, but I doubt that any of us could predict exactly what would happen or how it will happen.

sps49@474

I think Sammael burned his bridges before he died and suffered the ultimate penalty. The DO was probably not in a favorable mood to resurrect him. Moridin was already in the picture when this all took place and Sammael wasn't really a part of Moridin's plans. So I think he is gonzo.

I also believe that Graendel is done for, it seems that her sudden demise goes right along with Rands' dark behavior. He became so hard that he didn't think much about destroying anyone, as long as it fit his plans. Graendel's death fit his plans and any long banter with her, or playing a game to kill her didn't fit in with those plans. So Graendel's death had a purpose, she needed to be destroyed. He had no more qualms about killing women, Graendel was a sign of that disregard.

I'm sure that would be different now after his redemption at the end of the book. But since it has happened, the wheel turned as the wheel willed.
Patrick Huff
479. pattack
Judging from the WOTFAQ I tend to believe that the Seanchan version is a corrupted version of the prophecies. I think Tuon had it backwards.
j p
480. sps49
Maybe, but everybody's Prophecies are accurate so far, even the Dark ones. And Tuon is really good at reading omens.
Patrick Huff
481. pattack
I guess we shall see in a year or two won't we?
Kelly Houk
482. conanoxen
pattack@479

I tend to think that the Seanchan versions are also tainted to favor the Seanchan. Especially since they tend to have a biased view of everything. Their original prophecy may easily have said something along the lines of "they must bind themselves to the Dragon." But because they favor their own ways and rulers so much, the scholars, who are probably afraid of having a prophecy that places the High Blood below someone not of their blood, may have changed the wording to keep them in a good light. Remember anyone who appears to not show proper respect to the Blood can easily be executed.

sps49@480
I agree that Tuon is really good at reading omens, especially considering how well things turned out for the Seanchan in the attack on the WT. But I don't think her omens have predicted anything about the Seanchan's interactions with the Dragon Reborn. I don't believe her omen reading is prophecy. It is almost like a mood ring, telling whether a certain thing is a positive or a negative event. But it doesn't give specifics like a prophecy does.
Wilson Grooms
483. Aye Aye Sedai
OK who thought that we had misunderstood Cadsuane's teachings ?

After the Semi chapter I thought that perhaps her teaching lesson was that Rand would have to be stone or Cuiendalliar (sp and not I'm not going to look that speeling up :P) and so that he could kill the female forsaken (and DF too) and not have to continue the list. Of course this would have been a great misdirection from RJ !!!!

Until the end I was thinking that perhaps her role was to teach Rand to be emotionless so that he could draw the TP and not be hindered in fighting women. However it appears that we will see a laughing crying Rand soon.

Might have been interesting the other way but then might have just pissed you all off based on the posts I've seen,
Wilson Grooms
484. dobby100
I think mesama is still in the tower. And i think it might be silvina(keeper). they both have blue eyes, blond hair. and i think she might have asked the black ajah sitter when elaida wanted her to be stilled they should revork the sentence. She might have called off aleida in the hall which lead to her being demoted and imprisoned soo to side with winning side (eggwean). she got to be a keeper. atleast we know there are no more black ajah sitters in the tower only one Chosen.
Wilson Grooms
485. PJR
I always thought that "Half the light of the world" refers to the damane which are the source of the empires power. They represent metaphorically one half of the light. He will convince his wife to release them as he can provide an alternative (and monopoly of the methods/technology) in the form of cannons which will become the mainstay of their military might.

The flame symbolisation for tar valon/female channelers would seem to support this.
j p
486. sps49
Aye Aye Sedai @483-

Buh? Cadsuane wants to teach Rand "laughter and tears" because she thinks he is too hard (brittle). Sorilea agrees and wants the same thing.

I don't think Cads is aware the True Power exists, and she certainly would not want him to use something so Evil.
Wilson Grooms
487. Aye Aye Sedai
@486 SPS - Exactly - Classic misdirection

- just because Cads wants to believe that her role is to teach Laff & Tears but didn't RJ teach us that characters may be misinformed? We (and Rand) only know from MIn that Cads has an important role to teach a "lesson that he doesn't want to learn".

We may think ( like Cads) that this lesson is for Rand to be warm and cuddly again - but what if fandom was wrong - gasp - that's why I loved what I saw as the twist.

Until the end redemption on the Mount I was thinking that perhaps the lesson was learned by her saving the collar of sadness that was used by Semi - and in Rand's efforts to save Min he "learned to kill a woman" and to avoid emotions. I was actually impressed with this "twist" and up until the end was think that this was the Lesson learned and was a great twist on our expectations.

Just saying - this theme was picked up with Verrin's comment about the battle not being what Rand (or we Think it is) - Perhaps the battle was just won on the Mount - hmmmm
Bill Reamy
488. BillinHI
Sluggonics @282: I have to disagree with you on the point that RJ would never have written the scenes with Gareth/Siuan and Perrin/Faile. Those scenes (and others like them) had to be there and even RJ must have planned for them from the beginning. Much of the whole series is about character growth and their biggest fault has been lack of communication. The characters are finally realizing what must be done, e.g. Min and Nynaeve re helping Rand rather than controlling him. I think those scenes would have appeared even if RJ was still with us and completing the series himself.

bluecansam @283: Amazon at least has TGS available for the Kindle. I would have to assume that others also have it now or soon will.

blindillusion @297: Haven't re-read yet so I'm not sure, but do we know _when_ the Bloodknives would activate their ter'angreal rings? Didn't that take a drop of their own blood? Knowing that the flight to TV was going to take several days, surely they would not activate them before actually arriving at the battle site?

bad_platypus @308: I believe that Tamyrlin's ring is believed by most here to be the other male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor.

Laras as Mesaana: I'm sure that was first mentioned as a joke: Even without Verin's statements about her, there's no way she's even a DF, let alone a Forsaken.

Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean: I _really_ hope we get her POV for her trip through the rings! That would be awesome.

Perrin's continued angst: Definitely a bit annoying but I think he's just now realizing how f***ed up his whole "Faile is more important than anything, even TG" thought process was. He is (just) now beginning to realize that he must become what the Pattern needs. That said, his interaction with Tylee Kirghan (as well as Mat's with Furyk Karede) will become pivotal in getting Randland and the Seanchan bunch together for the Last Battle.

forkroot @346: While I agree that the "Masema - Prophet" plotline dragged on way too long, IMO it was important for the Seanchan to find out about Perrin and his abilities which will hopefully bring the two sides to some kind of agreement before TG. Also totally agree re Demandred/Borderlanders: Something has got to be majorly wrong there.

forkroot @356: Thanks for answering my later query re True Power/Source. I was indeed confusing/melding the two.

SuffatheDamane @410: Haven't re-read yet, so you are probably right about Egwene's wording but as noted by Pete P @411, she still needs an attitude adjustment re Rand. As awesome as she is (and she has always been in my top 5 characters) she does share the problem almost all of the major characters have had in thinking that everyone else is wrong or misguided and only (insert character here) has the one true vision of how everything should be done. I especially agree with Pete P on her adopting the ideals/principles/habits of whatever group she is currently with. Moiraine was the same initially, but she had her epiphany and realized her error. I'm sure Egwene will do the same, hopefully in the next book, and she will become the most awesome Amyrlin ever.

Rand and the song: It certainly looks like Rand is causing at least some of the problems of the world and it seems accentuated since the TP use. As for the song, did he not witness the song in his trip through the Ancestratron? Somewhere in the back of his mind (where LTT used to hang out) he should be able to come up with it. But what if he needs another Green Man?

pattack @418: I don't think we know for certain that _all_ the Asha'man now at the Black Tower are Taim's followers and/or Darkfriends. I think Taim is Demandred's proxy (unless Ishamael/Moridin was his only influence) and I would really like to believe that Demandred is in Shara, if only so that we might find out a little bit more about that country. Someone brought up that they would have a hard time getting from Shara to the Dragonwall, but gateways would surely be used rather than a march across the Three-fold Land. I suspect, however, that Demandred is just controling the Borderlanders.

Helen @420: Defending the WT: Yeah, another problem of the 3 Oaths IMO, as well as evidence that Ishy was the instigator there. I guess in the heat of battle, with holes being blown in the sides of the WT and AS likely being killed just by that, they could decide they were justified in using the OP to defend themselves. I don't really agree, though, that it was a victory for the Seanchan, especially if they lost more damane than they gained. Of course, if they did gain travelling, which I guess we don't know (yet), that tips the scale to their side.

Now that I have _finally_ caught up in the comments, I can start my re-read (or maybe a re-listen) :-)
john massey
489. subwoofer
Great googly moogly! Am slowly wailing through the comments, am 3/4 through the book and have some serious um... thoughts in regards to what the deuce happened and a brief comment on the writing style.

What was up with Rand for instance? The next time the DO talks to Rand in a dream sequence, I expect the classic- Luke! I am your father- tag line to crop up here. For Rand, this books reads like Empire Strikes Back, in terms of how dark it is for the main protagonist.

Ny, not near enough braid pulling, sniffing and generally bringing Rand down a notch or two. Maybe a style thing but I have come to expect more from her. When we last saw Ny, she was well on her way to becoming EPIC in her own right, so what gives now?

I am thinking that the next book is gonna read like Return of the Jedi, book 1 and 2. Or, I could be way ahead here and this is like Revenge of the Sith and Rand is Anny. Then this whole series is gonna end badly for all of us folks. At the least, very dark, and depending on your disposition, very unsatisfying.

And Caddy? Phaw! How could she have gone so sideways in such a short time? We get a page of her talking about her wards and how they are better than some AS think and pwang!- All her logic goes higgly piggly with one small little Forsaken getting set free. This ones needs some thinking on my part to digest. Then the ranting will being in earnest.

Woof™.
James Jones
490. jamesedjones
488 BillinHI
I think those scenes would have appeared even if RJ was still with us and completing the series himself.
Sure, but would they have appeared in this book? I would think that it's much more likely that this book would have been stretched out to 3 or 4 more. RJ was very careful about characters sharing information too quickly (maybe that was how he percieved real life). BS kinda tossed those reservations out the window, and decided that, in order to get from point A to point B, he'd just use the fastest route. And I recall reading in one of BS's blogs that he does not receive any additional compensation for extending the series. So there's no reason to feel otherwise.

Having said that, I still feel that BS extended a lot of the book to match the WOT style. Personally, I was not satisfied with the end result, but I cannot deny that it definitely felt like a WOT book (just POD or COT). :(
Jacy Clark
491. Amalisa
sps49@474

Channeling Verin? So you are sworn to not betray the Great Lord until the very hour of your death? I clear my nose at you!

*lol*

No, I don't, not really. This is a disagreement of degree, though, not like whether Gawyn was Compelled or not.

Oh, I got that. And don't even get me started on the whole Gawyn-was-Compelled thing. 'Cause he wasn't. He was just young and stupid. Something he'll grow out of...
Wilson Grooms
492. ClaytonT
First off, LOVED the book. Knew I would too, after I went out and picked up Mistborn about 6 months ago and then plowed through the rest of the Sanderson catalog in rapid fashion. Very smart choice for finishing the series. Kudos Brandon.

Re: Mat - yes, he felt off to me too, mostly in the first scenes with Talmanes (not so off in the scripted backstories part, which I thought was totally Mat), but I seem to recall RJ writing or stating that Mat was the character most like him, who when he was writing him felt most like he was writing in the first person. So, maybe in that light the hardest character for BS or any other writer to 'nail'.

I also thought Nynaeve was very different. But in this case it was a VAST improvement.

In contrast to most posters here, I LOVED every Rand scene. Yes, they were painful, but they had a dangerous edge, a "what the heck is he gonna do next?" feel that was frankly riveting. I felt so much more engaged in Rand the character than I had in the last, oh, 5 or 6 books.

Graendel speculation: I really hope she's dead and gone, but my question is was Nynaeve actually able to discern a compulsion from G vs from some other female channeler? I was struck that Rand's "proof" could have come from any old BA that G had recruited and set up in the fort.

Good on you Rand for not riding into the Far Madding box, and shame on you Borderlanders. There better be a damn good explanation why you're so desparate to find Rand instead of resuming your posts.

Rand's not over the hump on his self-loathing in my opinion. Wait until he realizes all those poor compulsed souls in G's fort will never get their chance to take another turn on the wheel b/c he balefired 'em. Ouch.

Who else is thinking that Rand's little incognito trip to Ebou Dar will lead him to realize he should just hand over all his conquered lands to Seachan administration? A) they do it better than him (maintaining order, etc); and B) gets a lot of responsibility off his back. Dude, you've got enough to worry about, stop worrying about grain dist'n and let the pros handle it.

I think Tuon's (hate the new name) comeuppance will come when someone slaps an a'dam on her. Then she'll declare all damane free. Because really, there's no chance of all the forces of Light workinn together at the Last Battle with the whole "you keep enslaving our friends" thing hanging out there.

~750 pages and not ONE bloodly mention of Andoran successional politics!! My favorite omission of the whole book!

Loved the way the BT was downplayed here...only mention is that "oh crap, the folks we sent there never came back". Made BT seem much more ominous and foreboding. Bad things going on there man, baaaaad things.

Overall, just couldn't be more pleased with Brandon's work here. Don't ever tell me which chapters RJ wrote entirely and which he didn't - I don't really want to know. 1 year seems long but compared to the overall pace of the series it'll be here before we know it.
john massey
493. subwoofer
'K, I lied, this is probably gonna start a fire storm but like my old friend Jack Burton used to say..."what the hell"...

One teeny weenie thing is that BS is immensely younger than RJ and that showed through to the character relationships. The way that the young deal with the old and vice versa. Past books, the kids were always trying to prove themselves and there was all sorts of internal monologues about insecurity. That was pretty much gonzo. It was like, "hey Rand, good to see you finally went through puberty".

Mat seems to of grown up too. Not a big fan of "Bloody ashes", but the dynamic of his rogue-ishness has changed. The village scene was sooo good though. Mat through and through. "I'm no bloody hero", but comes through in the clutch anyways. Way to cowboy up!

Eggy was awesome, but she is aging wayyy before her time. Being imprisoned and trapped in a bunker with Elaida will do that to a person. I would of headdesked but I accidentally dropped the bug killer and it broke the desk for me.

Good times!

-edited because some lunk head can't spell "One".

Woof™.
john massey
494. subwoofer
Oh yeah... Subway - tuna rocks! Whole wheat, everything- hold the onions and done!

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
495. Katiya
I have to say, Egwene ROCKED through this book, but in the end...they're all STILL doing the same thing. I was disgusted with her complete distance from Rand, even calling him "al'Thor" at one point, and she pretty much calls him "The Dragon Reborn" throughout the entire book. Doesn't she understand that controlling him isn't going to work? And she's got this like, the Aes Sedai are the only way to save the world mentality that makes me itch. Great that she's AS and all, that's seriously what they need, but she can't be TOO Aes Sedai...I mean, their whole system has flaws beyond the ones she's pledged to fix, that whole "we're all the world has" thing being one.

Awesome use of not-so-subtle clues with Rand's adoption of Moridin's colors after the TP Incident. I HATE Cadsuane even more now, even though her goals are admirable, and I'm so frickin' tired of every woman wandering around calling Rand stupid and idiotic and stubborn every five seconds! I applauded when Tam called Cadsuane out on her interpretation of Rand's behavior-- "he needs civility", HONESTLY. What is wrong with him is so much more than being stupid or even merely crazy...he has a leak in his brain, he is directly influenced by the Shadow champion. Granted no one on the Light side knows that, but it still irks me to see Rand's condition downplayed to his detriment.

And on that note..."the three shall become one"? I really don't know if I like the sound of that...

Either way, excellent review, Leigh...I laughed so hard imagining your reaction to the spanking scene that a family at the table in front of me in the mall thought I was choking on my food. Hehehe.
Wilson Grooms
496. Roseanne
That was brilliant! It felt like I didn't breathe for the last half of the book. As emotional as books 5 and 6 I thought. Brandon has my total respect for pulling that off.

I always loved Verin and had thought that maybe she was once black ajah but had renounced. Close, but not on the bullseye. The reveal was AWESOME. One of my favourite scenes.

I actually loved the ending and didn't see it as anti climatic at all. My impression was that in this book Rand was the big bad himself. He was turning into one of the Forsaken. So the ending was him facing himself and winning. Half way through the book I was thinking, "I don't see how the light can possibly win." But the end gave me hope again.

I can't stand Gawyn and I honesty don't know which of Min's viewing's interpretations will come true - that he kills Egwene or kneels at her feet (presumably as a warder). I don't trust him at all, and was interested in Egwene's reaction. Much better than if she'd welcomed him with open arms.

Truly awesome book and I cant wait for the next one.
Wilson Grooms
501. Doomriders
@CPS
Semi & Graendal: Cheap deaths in some regards. For me Semi never really pops. I guess she never get's enough screen time to make me really know her. Sammael, Rahvin and Lanfear all seemed so much more real to me. If Graendal is dead I really think that takes her off the "who killed Asmo" list. I just don't think the rveal wil carry enough weight. I agree with Leigh that it feels cheap that we didn't get to see a Gaendal confrontation.

I think rand in the story explained it perfectly with Graendal. She would never face him face to face. There would never be a face off because she was to itelligent to fight someone leagues stronger than her face to face. I look at the Megaton Balefire as a parallel to the atomic bomb. It may have been unecessary, but it was a means to an end, even though it was terrible one. Rand eradicating the palace in a smiliar manner was in his mind the only way to kill her. As he would never see her face to face and left unchecked could possibly use compulsion on a loved one of his.
Wilson Grooms
497. Doomriders
I know some people complain that Mr. Sanderson did a sub-par job on Matrim. Yet, did everyone forget Talmanes and the comedy between the two of them? I was rolling when he was writing back stories and trying to justify them to people. Then that guy was worried about an Aunt he never had. I loved the movie 28 days later. Obviously that would make the village going mad my favorite scene. Nothing like raging zombie like folks attacking and killing each other. Just going absolutely mad! I also loved the ending, where Rand gets a grip on his emotions again and learns to live. I am in the club of the belief that there was no LTT. Rand just had information of the forsaken and LTT(holes filled via the mat route), he then let that information to create a voice in his head. This was made possible because of the taint and everyone comparing him to another person. It was stated at the end his split personality was merged.
Roger Powell
502. forkroot
cps2195@500
Props to you for putting down a meaty post at 500 instead of just a "wowie I got 500!!"

BillinHI@488
forkroot @346: While I agree that the "Masema - Prophet" plotline dragged on way too long, IMO it was important for the Seanchan to find out about Perrin and his abilities which will hopefully bring the two sides to some kind of agreement before TG.
Just so you understand where I was going with this, my thought experiment still has Perrin going out to Ghealdan (presumably to deal with the Shaido and/or talk to Alliandre) and would still have Faile kidnapped and so forth. So it would still accomplish the plot objective you noted.

Doomriders@499
I know I may be in the minority, but I believe the true source was from the creator. I believe the creator was bailing out his child in great need.
I assume you are referring to Rand's escape from the sad bracelets and you meant the "True Power", i.e. a separate power that would not be blocked by the a'dam. How do you account for the black aura around Rand that comes right after this incident? It seems to me that the text makes it pretty clear that Rand accessed the True Power (the DO's power). The consensus seems to be that Rand accessed it through his connection with Moridin, which in turn stemmed from the crossed balefire incident at the end of ACoS.

--
While we're on the subject of Moridin: I too was amazed that he let out that important secret to Rand. (I'm talking about the fact that balefire prevents a Forsaken from being recycled.) Upon further reflection it occurred to me: Moridin/Ishamael may not be immune to Rand's ta'veren pull. We've certainly seen a lot of others let out secrets in Rand's presence.
Roger Powell
503. forkroot
{Removing the DO's taint, i.e. getting rid of a duplicate post}
Wilson Grooms
498. Miythrandir
This book was great in a lot of ways. I think my favorite part in the book was when Min tells Cadsuane and Co. that they should be trying to help Rand, not manipulating him. She seems to be one of the few people in WOT with brains. You would think by now that people would get that manipulation + rand = BAD.

Whenever I read the Cadsuane spanking Semirhage bit, I laughed with glee. Then I thought BS had to write this bit just to appease you, Leigh.

I feel for Tam and Hurin. Hopefully Rand apologizes to them.

Glad to see Elaida get captured. She SOOOOOO deserved it. Didn't really matter to me that she was abruptly captured. I too would have liked to the kamikaze ter angreal dudes in action a scene or two more. There should've been a scene of them taking out an aes sedai or soldier or something, but I loved how Byrne took that one out.

I wonder how Rand will be in the future...

Mat was funny as always. The only major difference in character I perceived was Talmanes - he was about as goofy as Mat was, and I never read that in the previous books. But hey, I can take humor. Humor is good.

I'll miss Verin. Never saw it coming that she would be a mole in the BA. Guess someone's gotta die on occasion in WoT. Very cool scene.

All in all a super book. Would've liked a happier storyline for Rand, but I guess he has to go low so that we can appreciate the highs to come.
Roger Powell
504. forkroot
Oh-oh ... tor.com seems to be getting unstable .. posts are getting moved around like sections in the White Tower. Is the DO touching our web site?
Wilson Grooms
499. Doomriders
I know I may be in the minority, but I believe the true source was from the creator. I believe the creator was bailing out his child in great need. I am under the belief that there is not just one side. The light side so to say, has to intervene and bail out its protagonists once in awhile also. Otherwise it would be a lopsided story with only evil possessing any form of power in the world.

Knowing Jordan was a devout Christian leads me to believe that Rand would have trials and tribulations such as jesus did. With the final battle being his redemption.
Wilson Grooms
505. Doomriders
@CPS
Semi & Graendal: Cheap deaths in some regards. For me Semi never really pops. I guess she never get's enough screen time to make me really know her. Sammael, Rahvin and Lanfear all seemed so much more real to me. If Graendal is dead I really think that takes her off the "who killed Asmo" list. I just don't think the rveal wil carry enough weight. I agree with Leigh that it feels cheap that we didn't get to see a Gaendal confrontation.

I think rand in the story explained it perfectly with Graendal. She would never face him face to face. There would never be a face off because she was to itelligent to fight someone leagues stronger than her face to face. I look at the Megaton Balefire as a parallel to the atomic bomb. It may have been unecessary, but it was a means to an end, even though it was terrible one. Rand eradicating the palace in a smiliar manner was in his mind the only way to kill her. As he would never see her face to face and left unchecked could possibly use compulsion on a loved one of his.
Wilson Grooms
500. cps2195
alright folks just finished TGS this afternoon. Woot! Woot! I'm giddy with excitement at the chance to discuss it. If this goes long I apologize ahead of time. It's Halloween and I've been drinking.

First off, Thanks Leigh, Your commentary made me approach the book in a whole new way. There were instances early in the book were things that you've said really resonated with me. I finished my last read through about two months before Leigh's started (damn! can you believe it's been over 9 freaking months?) so I haven't had the opportunity to read WOT since reading everyone here's thoughts. My opnions and ideas were most definitely influenced by what I've read here. For examplw, the Semhirage spanking scene made me feel like BS & RJ were sticking there tongue out at Leigh. I think that says something about how well Leigh has her finger on the pulse of this story. Bravo Leigh! Bravo!

All right let's get it to it now. But when will it be now you ask? SOON. To the review:

Damn! after reading that I feel like I need a breather. I'm winded. That was like a heavyweight title fight. It took me about 300 pages to get into it but once I did that shit just knocked me dizzy.

In regards to the writing I have to say that there were instances were I felt I was reading BS and not RJ. In fact early in the book I visualized some characters differently then I had before. Maybe I'm a little older and in a different place then I was before...hell I wasn't married nor did I have any children (now I have two) when KOD was released. Maybe if I didn't know RJ died I wouldn't have noticed. But, I did. There were times when I felt like I was reading RJ and times I felt like I was reading BS. Hopefully one day we'll get BS to discuss it on his blog or maybe we'll get the book of annotations.

In some way's this book made me appreciate RJ's genius. While BS does a great job being subtle in his original titles I don't think he pulls it off as well in Randland.

Nonetheless, I loved this book. BS should be proud. I've spent 17 years reading and waiting...
and waiting.... and waiting to see how the story play's out. Some major plot lines get tied up here(Lews Therin, the AS rebellion etc..). I definitely felt ike the story is coming to a head.

Please don't get mad at me for the length....but, here are some specific thoughts:

Cadsuane: not as old as some people suspected. I think there is at least one member of the kin who is older. Most of the time in WOT we, as the reader sympathize with Rand. We,as the reader, get annoyed by everyone trying to manipulate him. In the TGS we are actually rooting for Cadsuane to succeed. We are shown that we don't always make the right move or decision sometimes other's do know best.

Rand: I think Leigh (or it could have possibly be one of the commentators)said something in the reread about Rand changing into more of a "force of nature" then a person about midway through the series. This book stresses that view. Rand is an UBER dick. He is in no way likable. He is still sympathetic (the dude has the weight of the world on his shoulders....literally.) I thought the scene where he talked about Lan and the diversion at the Gap bludgeoned us with this point. It seemed to lack the typical WOT subtlety.

Egwene: BADMOTHERFUCKIN'ASS! She carries this book. Right now she is my favorite WOT character. In a lot of ways her plot arc is a foil to Rand. She has to grow "harder" to endure her situation yet she does so without losing her humanity. She still has "trust" in others. She intuitively understands it's the "why" not the "what" that's important. We all so get one of the rare instances in WOT where we really see what a character can do with the One Power. I think up until this point we only get to see Rand (attacking the Seanchan with Callandor) due the whole "one man army" thing. Egwene is still too cool for lame ass Gawyn.

Verin: She freaking rocks. Thed best side character in WOT. This is a great to solve a major plot thread(the BA) in a relatively concise manner. I't nice to finally have an answer to the question so many had about the portal stones comment. How many years ago was that? Still I'm not sure she is completely dead. "the in case I do not return" comment made me wonder if she could be tied into the Moraine rescue.

Semi & Graendal: Cheap deaths in some regards. For me Semi never really pops. I guess she never get's enough screen time to make me really know her. Sammael, Rahvin and Lanfear all seemed so much more real to me. If Graendal is dead I really think that takes her off the "who killed Asmo" list. I just don't think the rveal wil carry enough weight. I agree with Leigh that it feels cheap that we didn't get to see a Gaendal confrontation.

Elaida:
Good to see her out of the picture but RJ & BS made me feel bad for her. I wanted her to get her comeuppance but not in that way. I actually felt *gasp* sympathetic with her. To me that seems like good writing. I do think she is gone from the series (much like Galina.) I think her rescue could possibly be in the Outrigger books (if they ever get written.)

Lwes Therin: In some parts of the book he is more likeable then Rand. He actually made me LOL. WOT did a great job of making the reader live the insanity. One of the major discussions in the WOT community focused around whether or not the "voice" was real or not. Well its nice to finaly now that it was just a manifestation of Rand's conscience.

Towards the end we get to see some growth from the AS and even from Gawyn. It seems like RJ & BS are trying to show the reader what can happen when we communicate and trust each other.

well I have a lot more thoughts but seeing as hwo long this has run I'll wait till later.
Wilson Grooms
506. Doomriders
This post moving is throwing me off quite a bit. I double posted thinking my post earlier was not posted :( I am sorry for that guys.

I assume you are referring to Rand's escape from the sad bracelets and you meant the "True Power", i.e. a separate power that would not be blocked by the a'dam. How do you account for the black aura around Rand that comes right after this incident? It seems to me that the text makes it pretty clear that Rand accessed the True Power (the DO's power). The consensus seems to be that Rand accessed it through his connection with Moridin, which in turn stemmed from the crossed balefire incident at the end of ACoS.

--
While we're on the subject of Moridin: I too was amazed that he let out that important secret to Rand. (I'm talking about the fact that balefire prevents a Forsaken from being recycled.) Upon further reflection it occurred to me: Moridin/Ishamael may not be immune to Rand's ta'veren pull. We've certainly seen a lot of others let out secrets in Rand's presence.

I know it was most likely the DO, but I enjoy balance in stories, yet a lot of high fantasy only ever shows the evil side having a hand in the issues of the world. While the good half merely just stands back and says I win regardless to bad for you it is foretold.

I looked at it in the sense of Moridin loathes Rand, Yet he cares not for the rest of the forsaken. Especially since he is Nae'blis(sp?)and wants no interference with his hated rival at Shayol Ghul. So he gave him a means to eliminate the others so it could be Mono E Mono.
Bill Reamy
507. BillinHI
bluecansam: I screwed up: TGS is not available for the Kindle. Winston Churchill wrote a book also titled "The Gathering Storm" and it's listed just below the prologue and I didn't look closely enough at that entry. Sorry about that. Come to think about it, I believe the WoT e-books are just now being released. TEotW is available and they will release each book in order each month, so TGS will not be available until next year. Mea culpa.
T C
508. Freelancer
Aye Aye Sedai@483

Hmm. Cadsuane was always about getting Rand back to his humanity. She saw that he was too hard, and that him facing the Dark One that way would be worse than losing. She had the right goal. I believe that she felt she could trick him into moving her way though, and that wasn't wise.


pattack
Every poster on here has a right to their opinion

Nobody said they didn't...
Hey forkroot, who cares for your condescending crapola

Oh, wait, someone did. You.


Amalisa@491

::high five:: You go!


ClaytonT@492

Regarding the balefire. I was already corrected on the same point. Having died by balefire doesn't preclude a soul from rebirth. It does prevent the Dark One from getting his hands on that soul for his own personal reincarnation method, due to timing issues.

I don't believe that Rand will give over all governmental administration to the Seanchan. But he will alter his demands of accomodation with them, and make a truce with Fortuona after all. I'll bet that Mat's next meeting with Rand, whenever that is, will have something to do with it. I wonder what Verin would have done with the knowledge that Mat was now a Seanchan prince.


Uhh, TOR? What happened? Comment sequence is currently:
496
501
497
502
503
498
504
499
505
506

I could see if a post or two were deleted for some reason, but rearranged order, that's spooky.


subwoofer

Looks like forkroot@502 is poking you with a sharp stick there.


cps2195@500

Cadsuane is between 295-305 years old. I think that has been fairly common knowledge for some time. At least, references to her in both the encyclopaedia-wot and the Seven Spokes Chronology see it that way, giving her birth year as 705NE.
About Lews Therin, I have to disagree. He was a separate personality, which has now been assimilated by Rand. Given what has taken place up to now, would it not naturally seem, at that point, that he must not have really been there at all? The pain of Lews Therin, his guilt and anguish, are what prevented them from "joining" previously. Once he was able to answer his "why", and realized that Ilyena was not gone forever, but would have her own chance to live another life, he was able to let go, and Rand was able to absorb him fully. The question now is, does that give Rand access to all of the ancient memories? Then he'll know exactly what went wrong at Shayol Ghul, and with Min's imminent discoveries from her books, will be able to do the job right.
Wilson Grooms
509. QuantumEve
A couple thoughts on how the three become one vision will play out.

While I appreciate the idea of Rand channeling Callandor with Elayne and Avi, isn't Elayne going to be having her babies right around TG? If so, she won't be doing much channeling since she hasn't been able to touch saidar. Although I might be off on the timeline and how far alng she is. I'll admit I lost track of her timeline in this book, but it threw me off that Melaine was only just showing. I thought she got pregnant way before Elayne.

If anyone can clear up the timeline for me, I'd appreciate it.

I like the idea someone mentioned that the three will be Rand, Nyn and Moraine. It seems fitting somehow.
Wilson Grooms
510. dobby100
silvina is mesana what do you think?
Wilson Grooms
511. Leah J
I agree with your review, especially Egwene be the most awesome plot arc in the book and my current favorite character. Her scenes were what MADE this book! Gahh, it's about damned time.
T C
512. Freelancer
I do not believe that Mesaana as Silviana would have stood up for Egwene against Elaida. It is clear to anyone in the Tower by now that Elaida's unstable behavior is serving Ruin, er, Chaos, while Egwene's actions are moving toward the restoration of Tower unity. Also, Silviana is well known, has been around for quite some time, and would be much harder to imitate successfully.
Wilson Grooms
513. UK Chris
Leigh, I was really surprised at what was (or wasn't) in your *headdesk* moments. I thought for sure Rand's use of Compulsion on Tuon was going to be first on the list. When I read that, I thought, "Yeah, this is what she meant!"

Overall, great book. The first 1/2 I was kind of like, "What do Leigh and Jason mean that a bunch of stuff happens?!" Then I read the other half and I was just floored. The Cadsuane exile thing really caught me by surprise. Two Forsaken being taken out was pretty big, and the Sheriam/Verin reveal had me talking out loud at the book. And on the whole "Saidared" thing -- yeah, that was pure Brandon, but I laughed out loud, as I still thought it was reasonable for Mat to say (except for the fact that in a world where technology isn't at such a fast growth rate -- and by extension knowledge isn't either -- the use of words outside of their standard use would be rare). But I still laughed, so HA!

Love the reviews -- thanks so much Leigh!
Wilson Grooms
514. UK Chris
Oh, two other things:
1. Doesn't Gareth or Siuan or SOMEONE know that Gaebril was Rahvin? That dead horse of Gawyn's needs to get burned.

2. Did anyone else understand what Light Eater (that Tuon mentioned she would give to the Dragon) is?
Helen Peters
515. Helen
@444 forkroot
I agree, but please remember the discussion back on the re-read threads where we learnt everyone's first language wasn't English. Even though the dodgy writing really grates sometimes, it's a damn sight better than my writing of any foreign language so I put up with it.

That said, how do you get firefox to underline spelling errors?

Back to Verin, the letters and the BA oath not to betray the DO until the hour of your death (OK not quite worded right). She gave the letter to Mat and had more in her pouch. How about they were for different people. Those people she's going to find in the next 10 days after dropping Mat off in Caemlyn. Then on day 10 when she's distributed all her instructions she goes to the tower, takes the poison and drops dead in front of Eg. At that point all the recipients open their letters as instructed. She's just condemned the DO at the hour of her death. Any thoughts?

@422 khouk
Sorry, I cannot accept your argument against mine. That's a threat against lifestyle not life. For your argument to hold up AS would be able to use the OP against a cutpurse who'd stolen their last coin as it would put them into penury until they could contact the tower and get some more.
I still think the 3rd oath gives them no defence (now that they know the seanchan don't kill damane) against being collared without being threatened.

Edit for typo
Maiane Bakroeva
516. Isilel
Loved the book! The state of eagerness that Leigh's WoT re-read put me in wasn't wasted. Sanderson did a great job.

I particularly loved Rand's story arc. Now, I am generally a fan of dark gritty fantasy and while IMHO it would have been even more powerful if Rand actually _killed_ somebody close to him, it made me genuinely fear for him.
Which is not a mean feat for a series that skirts irrevocable negative consequences as hard as WoT does and is as riddled with true prophecies of a happy end. Kudos.

It was also a pleasure to finally see a truly clever and nearly successful Forsaken plot - which also retroactively rehabilitates many seemingly stupid Shadow's actions from the previous volumes.

And BTW, IMHO conflicting Seanchan and Randland Prophecies of the Dragon are clearly Ishy's work as well, designed to provoke irreconcilable conflict between them and the DR. One or both of them are very likely false.

And my very personal headdesk - Rand is _still_ listening to Ishy much more than to people who are on his side.
Hm..., Rand why don't you stop and think _why_ Ishy would tell you about Dark reincarnation and balefire?

Anyway, folks who guessed long ago that Rand using balefire would be more destructive to the Pattern than random Forsaken doing the same were absolutely right.
That's why Ishydin preferred to leave the access ter'angreal with Rand rather than doing some Pattern-annihilation himself.

Egwene's arc was also very good, except that Sanderson tried to accentuate her awesomeness a little too hard. There was a little too much fawning directed at her and put downs/dumbing downs of other characters to make her look better.
Which was entirely unnecessary IMHO, because Egwene really was great and just showing her in action would have been preferable.
Liked the hint that she is a Hero of the Horn during the battle with Seanchan. I always suspected it.

BTW, I kind of wonder about her decision to seize SAS BAs before moving on Tar Valon. Wouldn't it have been wiser to wait until she could cleanse them all in one fell swoop? Or was the danger of BA somehow sabotaging her storming of TV and preventing reunification too great? TAS BAs were still free to act, though.
It was a great relief though that somebody didn't fool around with captive DFs until they could do more damage and/or escape, but just executed them. High time, I say!

Verin - great of course. I loved both her chapters and of course her life's work is completely MoA. However, some questions remain.
I.e., for instance, why she felt that she couldn't wait with her revelations for a day or two and search for Mesaana a little longer, not to mention make sure that Egs was in position to act on the information. Was somebody from the Shadow on to her?
Also, would the Oath Rod have actually solved her problems? The Shadow seems to have ways of always finding fugitive DFs, even if they are non-channelers.
Maybe that's why she didn't wait/try harder to get it - she knew that Oaths on the Rod here or there, she was doomed.
Dying of poison in Egs room could have also caused the latter serious difficulties, however, and I don't understand why Verin didn't give Egs her angreal either. Will it now be lost wherever Meidani dumped the body?

Re: souls of those sworn to the Shadow, IIRC RJ said that the DO only punishes his minions to improve their behavior or to state examples for other minions, he isn't into pointless revenge. So, I imagine that he wouldn't actually bother to grab souls of those he doesn't urgently need and they'll have the same chance of being reborn and rectifying their mistakes as everybody else. Not that they know it, of course.

Siuan - I really loved her chapters, except for where she was dumbed down to make Egs look better. Great interactions with Bryne - another favorite character.
I don't get the whole "let's marry when the world is saved" though, since chances of surviving until then wouldn't be high and even if, the world will continue to need saving after TG too, what with chaos, starvation, need to repair the Pattern, etc.
Seize the day, I say. Those 2 should have been wise enough to do so.

BTW, I also think that Egs "rescue" was entirely reasonable and that Egs fury at Siuan is rather unjust. Maybe Siuan should have stopped to revive Egs when she saw that Egs had a sa'angreal, but then, if Egs was too exhausted to stop them from taking her along, was she in any position to offer leadership to TAS? And lying there alone with left-over Seanchan possibly still prowling around was just too dangerous.

Mat - his chapters were relatively pointless, but funny, even though the tone was different.
I really enjoyed the fleshing out of Talmanes, a minor character whom I have always liked. Didn't feel OoC to me at all. We already knew that Cahirienin don't open up easily, but once their reserve is gone, they go the whole way.
Thom's as well.
And Aludra's. Frankly, I always thought that Mat had much more chemistry with Aludra (or even Elayne) than he did with Tuon.

Gotta run, more thoughts later.
Wilson Grooms
517. cthedges
@UK Chris 514
I think Lighteater would be the Seanchan name for the DO.

I havent read all the comments but does anyone know what the sword with the dragon scabbard that Rand finds so familiar is all about?
Wilson Grooms
518. Krafka
Some thoughts (in no particular order):

1.Overall - loved the book. While I would always have preferred to have RJ finish his story, I agree with several people that the writing had become flat since ACoS. I was grateful for the reduction of braid tugging and repetitive commentary on the differences between men and women.

2.Who wrote what? As curious as I am, I never want to know which parts are RJ and which parts are BS. We will never know what AMoL (all three final books) would have been if RJ had written it. We do know he left copious notes so that the basic story can be told. Frankly, if Harriet, Tor, or BS reveal which portions were "filled" by BS, it will only lead to discussions about "canon"

3.Rand. Finally, forward movement on Rand's story (vs. Rand Plot line). The final chapter was a great step forward in his personal story. Although it skirted the edge of "love conquers all" and will save the world, it stayed on this side of the shark without jumping it. I desperately hope that the 3-1/Callandor stuff doesn't lead to a Elayne/Min/Aviendha jumbled "love conquers all and saves the world" ending.

4.Item 3 notwithstanding. The entire Elayne/Min/Aviendha storyline needs some raison d'etre.

5.Mat's story. Everything that happened to Mat could have happened while traveling to Ghenji and saving Moiraine. Since none of the sisters with whom he's traveling can travel, Moiraine's return or failure to return (her note to Thom suggest that it is only a possibility that she can be saved) did not have to affect any of the other stories, yet. In the context of Rand's story, the reader's knowledge of Moiraine's actual death or nearness to him would have added to the conflict, as the other characters (Rand, Nynaeve, Siuan, etc) thought about how her presence could/would alter their current situation. There had better be a good reason for Mat's story to have limped along - Verin's note needs to fill a very specific role which would require delaying the attempt to save Moiraine.

Some stuff I want to see in the remaining two books, but probably won't:

1. Redemption. Characters seem to all be either good or evil. Verin's warder seems to be the only character to have strayed and is trying to return to the light (Verin herself - as awesome as her story is, is not a story of redemption). However, I don't want to see the salvation-pulled-from-the-edge-of-defeat moment absurd like Ish/Moridin deciding to turn on the DO. A pivotal, SINGLE redemption needs to occur. Isn't redemption a form of second chance, just as reincarnation is?

2. Elaida. Stupid, venal, selfish...but never, NEVER black ajah. After some time as a damane, she would be a perfect candidate for redemption (see above). As it is, her story ends much the same way as Galina - frankly, it's exactly the same as Galina, including the name change to a diminutive pet name. In an upcoming battle with the forces of the DO, it would be great to have a leashed Elaida, changed from her time as damane, do something to save the WT or Egwene, as the embodiment of the WT, with a knowing glance.

3. Someryn (un)leashed. As the Shaido leave, Therava scoops up Galina, but there is no sign of Someryn. We know that the Seanchan have taken many WO as damane. Women as strong as Someryn are few and far between and we now know that damane cannot link and form circles. Would love to see a leashed Someryn go toe-to-toe with Moghedian with Liandrin holding the leash. After an epic battle, in which Someryn wins, she is freed after being shielded by a circle of AS serving Rand (or perhaps Nynaeve and/or Alivia) and Liandrin finally, finally gets nailed.

4. Siuan and Leane healed. I just really want this for some reason. Their stories could not move forward if they had retained their former strengths. A Siuan who stood as high as Lelaine or Romanda would never have be drawn to Bryne. What we're likely to see is an offer to heal them, which Leane accepts, but Siuan does not - since she has "found what she is looking for" outside being AS. Maybe since she has now found Bryne, Siuan can have her full strength back - wishful thinking.

5. A Two Rivers Reunion special with previously unaired clips and interviews. Seriously, I would enjoy a scene where the original gang from the Two Rivers quietly retell their stories to each other. Their friendships drive huge portions of the story. It would be a nice gimme to put them all back together after the crisis and enjoy their friendship and company WITHOUT having to watch them grieve one of their fallen friends who sacrificed himself or herself. What I'm afraid we'll get is this scene with a toast to Rand who gave up his life to save the world (followed by a scene with him quietly walking away with a smile on his face with Min), even as they rejoice in his being able to tell the tale of their father to his kids by Elayne and Aviendha - whom they vow will grow up as "first sisters" and who will know the sacrifice their father made.
Kelly Houk
519. conanoxen
Krafka@518

I'm not exactly sure how it is going to happen, but there is no way that Rand is going to be Permanently dead. Unless he is the most potent man in the world and with one sexual act produces multiple children for Aviendha.

But also, another prophecy was fulfilled in TGS. The one about the blind man standing on top of his grave shall have his eyes opened. (Bad translation) But it was started when Rand was blinded by his becoming too hard. Then fulfilled when he (LTT reborn) was standing on LTT's grave(Dragonmount) and becoming aware of himself once more.
john massey
520. subwoofer
Must make comments before I forget again what I wanted to say...

@Free-s'okay- you made the point earlier that everyone is entitled to an opinion, so let 'er rip. As others can post as they see fit on this blog, so can I. Meh. I know better than to drink forkroot;)

@Tor people- bubble of evil for the post numbers- see what happens when you do not celebrate milestones!;P

@Isilel- couldn't agree more. It seems to me that there was a fair bit of dumbing down of characters around Eggy to make her shine more. It is like the collective I.Q. of the sisters dropped to room temperature as of late. Relying on "you can't speak that way to a Sister" more than any reasonably logical argument. And it wasn't nec. Eggy is awesome, the collective Sisters retardation just sped up the process.

Totally get Siuan's motivation too. What good is an Amrylin if she is dead or Stilled? Seanchan death or AS Stilling. End result is the loss of Eggy and Siuan could not take that chance.

Everyone seems to be retarded around Rand too. Some characters were written in just for exposition and were very flat. Stretches the bounds of ta'veren. Rhuarc is not "the stuff" anymore, and the Maidens seem to just take Rand's attitude now without giving him some back.

My disappointment lies in the way that BS makes Mat less of a douche. Mat's doucheness is what I, personally love about him. He seems all growed up now:(

I am also a bit put off by the end of the two female Forsaken. I was gunning for a battle against some AS here. See a Green, like Caddy wade in and smack Semi around. Chapter 1 was leading up to that, then the spanking crap came about and I was wanting a measure of redemption for that. IMHO, it was building up to conflict with the "no torturing the women" stuff from Rand. In the end, I understand the motivation of turning Rand to the Dark Side by getting him to touch the True Source, but I personally wanted a Forsaken beat down.

Will rant more later...

Woof™.
F Shelley
521. FSS
@519 - I agree Rand will live again after his Death at TG. I posted before (on a re-read thread) that I think he's tied to the Horn of Valere, and since Nynaeve never forgets a weave she seen once, and since she saw Birgitte get thrown out of T'A'R, she will find Rand in T'A'R after TG and send him out onto the Pattern again, sans wounds, missing limbs, blindness, and madness.


On the other hand, I'm thinking the "something strange" about Avi's 4 children will be that some of them will be adopted first children (possibly ELayne's after she dies)...
Cent
522. fcentauri8
I loved the book.

I have never hated Rand (my favorite character most of the time), I just feel sorry for him. I do disagree with some of his decisions like talking about Lan's death serving him outloud, and his treatment of Hurin. I thought the use o balefire on Graendal's city was a great plan, and I hope he continues to use balefire to eliminate all forsaken (avoiding other casualties when possible). It has bad side effects but if all the foresaken just come back when balefire isn't used.....what's the other more effective option? He should just do what needs to be done even if it means killing women...like Lanfear. I want Rand to apologize to Tam and Hurin in the next book. It's great that Rand's downward spiral has ended. Now Cadsuane can go and die somewhere..... I detest the idea of Rand being in a circle that he can't control (with Callandor).

Egwene (I like her as long as she doesn't mess with Rand. If she does, let her die)

Verin rocked.

Fucking Fortuona...

I want Moiraine back!

Gawyn really needs to meet Morgase, so they can talk.

Looking forward to the civil war in the black tower too. I bet it will be ridiculous, unless that battle is just part of Tarmon Gaidon. Here's to hoping for a Dumai's Wells times a hundred for Tarmon Gaidon.

I can't wait for Towers of Midnight!!! I feel like an addict without a fix now :(
Mark Stokes
523. Mark_S
Dang we need threads. So much to discuss. First Faile. Nice comeback, after hating you for a couple of books you managed to erase that in a few short paragraphs. Then sealed it by staying away for the rest of the book. Keep up the good work!
john mullen
524. johntheirishmongol
@517

It may be that the whole point of Min/Elayne/Avienda was to give Rand someone to love so that he would be human again. I do feel he will be doing a whole lot of apologizing for being a jerk (I had other words in mind but I am a gentleman) which might get old pretty fast.

I hope destroying the Chodan Kal takes care of the Moridin connection. I thought that was what the light on top of dragonmount indicated.
Patrick Huff
525. pattack
@488
I was talking about the Asha'man directly inside the Tower, not the entire compound. We know that Taim's closest followers are inside the Black tower itself, but the place is huge. I don't think he has corrupted the entire farm, village, town, whatever it is.
Lindy Brown
526. lbrown
47.5 hours of reading and I'm now done with the book (I finished yesterday afternoon). I read so much on Thursday that I gave myself a headache but I considered it all worth it.

The events that I am most disappointed about not seeing in this book were the Tower of Ghenjei/Rescuing of Moiraine and the gloriful reunion of the 3 Super Boys. Of course, the reunion probably would not have been gloriful if it had happened in this book but now has a chance of being gloriful in the next book, so there's that. I kept wondering if Mat was going to get to the Tower of Ghenjei in this book but as I kept reading I saw that that was not going to happen. Oh, well. What happened in this book more than compensated for the lack of Mat awesomeness.

Anyway, I generally thought Brandon did VERY WELL with this book. There were certain conversations, certain words here and there, that I thought were probably Brandon's but I hadn't considered that entire scenes might be entirely his until I read this post. Interesting. I agree with many that have said that they considered this book to be virtually seamless. (Brandon, on his blog, mentioned a possibility of releasing a statement (or whatever) detailing what was his and what was Robert Jordan's when all 3 books had come out. I'm not if I want to read about that or not. It might destroy the illusion.)

Anyway, that being said, I did find the POVs of Mat and Nynaeve to be just a little off. They didn't seem as natural to me as say, Egwene's. Egwene's POVs were perfect. I would not be surpised to learn that Jordan wrote all of Egwene's POVs (even though that's not very likely.)Aviendha's POVs were spot on, too. Pretty much everyone else's POVs seemed that way, too, so I really have to applaud Brandon Sanderson. And I also applaud him for Mat's and Nynaeve's POVs, as well. While they were a little bit off, I didn't view them as a major problem in enjoying their stories.
Tess Laird
527. thewindrose
The 13/13 trick - I think we will see it with the Reds that went to the BT. Pevara, Javindhra, Tarna, Jezrail, Melare. I think it has been aluded to too much not to be used. My hopes that it can be undone, I know a lot of us like Pevara.

There are a ton of allegories aluded to with 3 (Authurian, Christainity ect), however the True Power is bad, and I don't see that being tied into any good out come.


I thought Fortuona's thoughts interesting when she first met with Rand. She met with him as the DotNM, and therefore as an equal. After the meeting she said: "I am the Empress". Before this she could meet with Rand as an equal, and that was why she waited. Now becuase of her and her peoples beliefs, she will be above him as Empress. I am looking forward to see how this is played out. I think Mat will be at the next meeting, and Rand has grown accustomed to people thinking they are his betters, only to quickly turn the tables on those people.

With the Seanchan having Traveling now, will she have the Crystal Throne retrieved? With Rands Ta'verness and strenghth will it work? (Sigh, we have to wait another year to find out.)
Maiane Bakroeva
528. Isilel
Fcentauri8 @522:

I thought the use o balefire on Graendal's city was a great plan, and I hope he continues to use balefire to eliminate all forsaken (avoiding other casualties when possible).

Umm, yea, balefire destroys the Pattern, particularly when used by the Dragon Reborn and in large quantities. That mass food spoilage in Arad Doman was probably the direct result of the balefiring of Graendal's compound. Ishy didn't give Rand this bit of advice because he has humanity's best interests in mind, you know?

OK, to continue my thoughts:

Nynaeve - great. Her defense of Mat seemed to be a bit over the top, but then Nyn never does anything by halves. I love how she is still hot-tempered, though. And how very, very brave and dedicated, despite her anguish over Lan. Her time with Daigian was very touching, too.

Perrin - continues to be dull, sadly. I don't see why we couldn't have seen good stuff with him instead - like meeting with Whitecloaks and Morgase's reveal, and why they were "spoiled" like that for us.

Faile - props for finally taking care of the super-annoying Masema, having a non-irritating mourning scene for Mera'din and then vanishing.

Aviendha - liked the sympathetic insight into Aiel mindset since they started to mightily tick me off some volumes ago. May have been drawn out a bit, but generally nice. Interestingly enough, it is Avi's pride and obsession with personal honor that keeps her back for so long.

Of course, it is a bit silly that she is considered to be "ready" when training of WOs normally goes on for years and most of it isn't even channeling. There is no way that she could know a fraction of what WOs normally do, what with her constantly being around Rand or wandering off to hang out with SGs. But maybe it doesn't matter, with all impending huge changes. She is supposed to be the bridge, clearly.

BTW, with Aiel not standing up to Rand anymore - it is actually a sign that they are close to giving up on him. A very dangerous sign, indeed.

Cadsuane is a character whom I have always disliked, but her POV made her much more interesting and sympathetic.

Ditto Gawyn, who, while still a huge idiot in his POV, is actually quite realistic and human. Not to mention that it gave Bryne opportunity to shine.

Tuon was very well written and gets props for resisting Rand's ta'verenness and general thoughtfulness, except of course for her stubborn refusal to review her views on channelers and people being property.
I now suspect that she is all the more unreasonable because she is a sul'dam. Intelligent non-channelers like Egeanin and Tylee had no personal motivation to cling to old ways, but Tuon has a very powerful one.

I am also surprised that nobody protests the collaring of channelers, even feebly. I mean, they may not like AS, but most who get collared are village Wisdoms and the like. I.e. people who play very important and integral roles in communities. The Wise Women of Ebu Dar were pretty much revered by the populace, right?
So why didn't Beslan bring it up, however weakly? And for that matter, shouldn't sicknesses be on the rise in Seanchan-held territories as a result? Shouldn't some people blame the lack of spring growth on the lack of Wisdoms (or equivalent) listening to the wind?
Additionally, lack of general oppression and tyranny as well as internecine fighting that Seanchan believe free channelers to inevitably engage in should have puzzled some of them, no?

More later.
Wilson Grooms
529. draven27
Is anyone else annoyed with the word "politicking" showing up a few times in this book? Other than that and Mat not seeming quite right the book was awesome. Cant wait for the next one.
Lindy Brown
530. lbrown
@ 49. Planeswalker
(That line though that says "there never was a Lews Therin inside him" made me think that Leigh was really right. It was only memories from LTT and not a separate entity. Though, earlier he also mentioned "second chance". Oh well, Brandon should have been more specific with this. Debates are on again.)

I thought that the debates would be over. It clearly says that Lews Therin had never been there in the first place. To me, that defintely clears up this issue. Rand realized that Lews Therin was him and there had never been a separate entity from himself in his head. Now, I believe Rand accepts that Lews Therin is him and also Lews Therin's experiences are his, as well, that's why he had the "second chance" thought.

One interesting thing from that scene that I latched onto was Rand's thought that if he is alive again after commiting suicide 3000 years ago, Ilyena might be alive again, too.

I wonder if Rand is now going to go looking for Ilyena, or realize one of his girls is she.
Bill Reamy
531. BillinHI
Krafka @518: Not sure how I feel about your opinion that Verin's story is not one of redemption. On one hand, I don't think she needed redemption since she was forced into the BA and did it with the purpose of spying on them for Team Light. If that's what you meant, then I wholeheartedly agree. On the other hand, if you considered her a true DF, then she definitely redeemed herself at the end. Egwene's statement that her soul was pure white is right on. Also on the Two Rivers Reunion Special: that would make an absolutely epic epilogue to the final book! But you're probably right in that we won't get to see it. :(

FSS @521: Wow! Hadn't thought about that! (Nyn pulling Rand back out of TAR) But I certainly agree he will live after dying, one way or another.
Lindy Brown
532. lbrown
@ 49. Planeswalker

Graendal - i think she's dead. But wow, no body? no fight?

Greandal's end, while a little unfulfilling, is probably the only way to realistically do it. We've been told numerous times that Greandal will not fight Rand and will run if she thinks he's anywhere near her. So this was the only way to defeat her without risking her running somewhere else and then Rand would have have to find her all over again.
Wilson Grooms
533. .benja
I agree with everybody who thought that Verin was awesome. Awesome, awesome, AWESOME!!!

But am I the only one except Wolfmage @ 52 who thinks that we learned about two BA oaths? Don't betray the Dark One, and, separately, don't betray your secrets until the hour of your death? 'cuz, that, like, makes a difference? Especially taking into account Verin's explanation of how you can betray your fellow darkfriends, the Chosen... presumably the entire Black Ajah... as long as you don't betray the Great Lord himself? I don't doubt Verin's a Lightfriend at heart, but unless I'm missing something obvious that makes it just one oath, I shudder to think how she's justified her actions to herself.

Also, I think Egwene's public gushing about Verin may be followed by some reveals about the actions Verin thinks can't be redeemed by anything pithy and easy like killing yourself to see the Black Ajah destroyed.

Oh, on why the loophole: If I understood Verin correctly, all darkfriends swear the same oaths, only when you swear them on the Oath Rod, they're quite literally binding -- my guess is that the wording long predates them being sworn on the OR, and nobody thought the loophole sufficiently important to mess with the standard DO-approved oaths.
Wilson Grooms
534. DRock
I thought that all in all, it was an amazing book. If you look at the previous RJ book, the excitement usually happened within the last 100 pages, with the rest building up to that point. In TGS, nearly every chapter has very exciting happenings that lead to greater events either in this book or future ones. I especially liked the last scene with Rand destroying the male Choedan Kal.

I am left with one main question of many though: where is Demandred?????

There is debate as to whether he is really Taim and leads the Black Tower, but no solid evidence. Demandred is probably Rand's biggest rival at this point in time, and maybe has always been. But where is he???
Wilson Grooms
535. cps2195
Freelancer @ 508:

Maybe you read that chapter differently then I did but the Line: "For they were not two men and never had been." To me seemed to be saying that the voice was not Lews Therin but rather a manifestation of Rand's madness and conscience. It was a means for him to deal with his predicament. I think it is similar to split personality disorder. Sometimes people create a distinct personality to deal with a trauma that leaves them broken. The pressure and trauma Rand faces broke him. I really enjoyed the fact that LTT became more likable and Rand less so throughout this book. The harder Rand became the more human LTT became. The memories are real but Rand locked them away in the LTT personality.
Patrick Huff
536. pattack
Okay People, consider this. I have researched this a little and I think their is some credibility to the arguement I am about to make.

Mazrim Taim was introduced in the 4th chapter of TGH. This is well after the first of the forsaken had been freed of the weakened bore. He did a little damage in Saldaea, then was captured by red sisters. He escaped his capture and was followed by Davram Bashere to Andor. Min has had viewings regarding both men and both are dark and for all intent and porpose bad news.

I think Mazrim Taim is one of the forsaken in disguise. The best guess is Demandred, although this is debatable and Bashere is a plant by the forsaken to keep a close eye on Rand.

The borderlanders are a front to guard the Black Tower from the west ( mainly The White Tower) and a deal has been struck with the daughter Heir in the East. Why they are in Far Madding is a question I have no answer for, unless they feel that the White Tower divided is no longer a threat and they have considered the Seanchan a bigger one.

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but I find the actions of Taim to be a little more than a false dragon could muster on his own. Tell me what you think?
Patrick Huff
537. pattack
Morridin sure is a helper, setting up both chicks to take a big fall.
Wilson Grooms
538. cps2195
pattack@536:

I thought the Taimendred theories were pretty well put to rest. I don't remember all the evidence off hand but I'm sure one of our resident WOT scholars can enlighten us.
Brandon Wood
539. brad21088
The weirdest part of reading this book for me was that it was cloudy all week, but didn't rain, until last night, when I finished the book. You know, the part where the storm breaks in the book as well. I realize it's just coincidence, but coincidence can be freaky! haha

I definitely agree that Verin's last hour was, by far, the best scene in the book. My second favorite scene was the Seanchan attack on the WT, where Egwene is blasting to'raken from the sky. Her mental dialogue, and the way the book describes her, is just pure awesomeness. I enjoyed Aviendha's POV chapters, but I knew exactly what she was doing "wrong" waaaay too early (you know, how she had to stand up to the Wise Ones to be a Wise One). I don't know if that's a bad thing, though. It might just mean that I'm starting to understand the Aiel, which is cool and creepy at the same time.

I'm so conflicted about the Seanchan. They bring stability, yes, but those who give up personal liberty for safety deserve neither, and all that.

Oh, biggest annoyance in TGS: THERE'S STILL NO MOIRAINE. She was one of my favorite characters, I've been waiting FOREVER for her to come back, and I have to wait for the next book?!?! DAMMIT!!! I realized towards the end of the book that we wouldn't be getting to the Tower of Ghenjei, because there wasn't enough of the book left to have a fully fleshed out adventure with Mat there. :( Oh, speaking of Mat, hey, zombies in Hinderstap. I've been generally annoyed with the whole "bubbles of evil" thing, because it makes the series more of a mystery religion type of deal, but as far as bubbles of evil go, the Hinderstap one was well done. Food spoiling is lame (but, of course, effective), but people randomly melting into super hot charcoal is just stupid. Although I did like Aviendha's awesome reaction. But, I'm rambling.

Oh, last thing that bothered me: it makes no sense that so many in the Black Ajah escaped. I really want to see Egwene personally smack-down Alviarin, and I want to know how they all knew they were being hunted. Oh, and... WHO THE HELL IS MESAANA??? Grrr, I hate waiting.

Anyway, great book, couldn't put it down, etc etc. I can certainly see why the "last book" was split into three. We need one more book to tie up the last of the hanging plotlines, and one more to actually get everything going with the Last Battle. And the Last Battle itself is sure to take a few chapters. Good job, Mr. Jordan, and good job to Brandon Sanderson as well.
Helen Peters
541. Helen
@536 and 538
Go see Leigh's comment at 388

539. brad21088
How The TAS BA escaped: one or maybe more of the 20 SAS BA who escaped went and warned their 'heart' who spread the news. They did have the best part of the day while Eg was massing her armies and waiting for that extra hour.
F Shelley
542. FSS
Hi guys - hate to rain on your parade, but the whole "Taim is Demandred" thing was debated ad naseum (with most thinking he was, including me) right up until Robert Jordan was asked and he said straight out: He isn't.

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html

Remember, the first step of WoT scholarship is check the FAQ.

Unless you're lazy like me, in which case go ahead and whip it right out there (the theory in question, that is).
Wilson Grooms
543. Jeff Dougan
I'm only through comment 194, after not getting to start the book until Friday morning and needing to deal with things like trick-or-treating with my 4-year-old. That said, a few things that stuck out to me and that I have not seen commented on in the parts I've gotten through:

- In the brief Masema POV, I think that's the "Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them." Seems Dem was impersonating Rand to Masema & corrupting the Prophet.

- Also seems to me that Faile's soldiers in that little excursion were the members of the Cha Faile.

- Looking forward to seeing Egwene & Rand meet, since the Dragon Reborn will "know [the Amyrlin's] anger."

- Wow, we were wrong on who Mesaana was likely to be. None of the names on Egwene's list was among the likely candidates.
Patrick Huff
544. pattack
OK, so Taim is not a forsaken, but you have to admit the proximity of his arrival and the loosening of the bore is too much coincidence. If he is not a forsaken then he is definately in close contact with one. I myself believe Demandred is in Shara. It would explain his absence from the battlefield so far.

I'm sure he will poke his hook nose, unsmiling head somewhere in the near future.
Kelly Houk
545. conanoxen
I agree, Demandred was leading Masema astray. But that doesn't explain who his army is. I'm not so sure that it is the Borderlander's. I still think he has a connection to the Black Tower. Since he was a direct rival to LTT, used to be best friend. He may decide to have his own Band of 100, ala the Black Tower.
someone else
546. Naraoia
BillinHI@488
Of course, if they did gain travelling, which I guess we don't know (yet), that tips the scale to their side.
Well, they do have Elaida, who can Travel...

Jeff Dougan@543 Well, the likely candidates not being on the list probably just means that she's still successfully hiding in the Tower. Verin couldn't figure out who she was, and when Egwene made everyone re-swear, Mesaana could completely honestly say that she wasn't a Darkfriend, since Forsaken don't think of themselves as mere Darkfriends. (Although SusanB@419 beat me to that point)

BTW, let me join the Verin lovers. OK, I was an idiot and spoiled the reveal by reading a random message board post before I was finished with the book, but it still hit me like a tram in the chest when I actually read the scene. "By the way, that dress you are wearing is green" = best line ever.

(Although it does make me wonder about sarcasm - someone somewhere explained that AS can use sarcasm so long as they think everyone listening knows they are doing it. Egwene knows her dress isn't green, and Verin knows that she knows, so wouldn't that line classify as Oath-compatible by the same logic?)

I can't wait to see how the new Rand works out once he comes off the mountain. The Rand in *this* book was positively creepy.
Wilson Grooms
547. J Hill
Well done! Well done! I'm delighted with the book. Perfect companion for sleepless nights w/ the flu.
There were only a couple of slow places - could happen to any book, any time. Otherwise, exceptionally well done! Like the perfect steak, eh?

I am delighted to find my extended family... Egwene, Rand, Cadsuane, et al.... in fine fettle & moving toward Tarmon Gai'don. Onward!

Now, would someone please get those next two volumes published so I can get some closure?????
j p
548. sps49
pattack @504-

I am not the only one who is sure that Taim was originally intended by RJ to be Demandred, but changed his mind. No, not to flip off the fandom, but because having it figured out so soon ruined a late reveal or something.

Cleaning the Black Tower is going to be tough; no vaporizing one person or building can be used because Rand wants and needs the non-Dark Asha'"men".

I still think the food spoilage was related to Rand and the True Power. He only used it once, but I think he held it several times, similar to females glowing when embracing saidar but not actively channeling.

I also don't understand why he is thought to draw the TP via his Moridin link- if so, he should also be able to draw saidin via Moridin, which he actually knows how to use. What makes sense to me is that the DO put him in a position with Semirhage where his only options would be drawing the highly addictive and very evil True Power or allowing his hads to be used to kill Min.

And it almost worked.

I hope he can resist through the next books; the Light is finally getting their stuff in one sock. I will be severely irritated if backsliding occurs.
Patrick Huff
549. pattack
@sps49

If you read the passage after the contents section in A Crown of Swords, I believe it explains about all the weather/food issues.
Patrick Huff
550. pattack
Wish I would have picked up on this before TGS, it would have explained a lot. I was under the impression that these events were being caused by the dark ones touch. In a way, they probably are, just indirectly.
Wilson Grooms
551. J Hill
As for 'Who killed Asmodean?' DUH It was Slayer! That was in the 11th book. Did ya miss it?

So sorry! Hell, yeah. Verin is the awsomest!
Sam
552. bluecansam
"Also, if one posts while ignoring prior posts, why should anyone read that one's?"

I think people are doing it mainly to respond to Leigh's entry, and to also post without being influenced by other opinions and arguments. At least, that's why I did it that way. In short, the primary post is for Leigh.
Patrick Huff
553. pattack
@552 bluecansam

Some of this is going to be repeditive just due to the amount of posts going through. I don't exactly like this format, because of the length of the continuous thread. I wonder how any of us can keep track of it all. Hell, I don't even remember most of what Leigh wrote and I read that a few short days ago. There will be some repitition, but I for one don't mind because it allows casual posters to add their two cents worth without going through hours of posts.

Also, I would not have been able to correct sps49 concerning the weather/food issue prevelant in the last couple books. I ran across that while researching another issue, which was about another piece of the prophecy.

As far as using the Wotfaq, I prefer the Encyclopaedia Wot. It has a more broken down index in which to find info. Sometimes just old fashioned reading is the answer too. I have all twelve books right in front of me right now.

I wish the people on here posting, "I thought we went through this" would stop with the condescending attitude and allow the first timers and casual posters to express their thoughts without putting them down. How are we going to add to this thread without making them feel like crap right off the bat.

I like what Helen did for me. Point out an earlier thread and leave it at that. Putting someone down for a comment made in repitition just shows how small that person really is.

Back to the books folks.......
Patrick Huff
555. pattack
We have been talking about the Black Tower and one thing we do know is the foretelling that Elaida had in ACOS. It will be rent in fire and blood and sisters will walk its grounds.

From this we can gather that it will be destroyed at some point, but sisters already walk its grounds. So, who will destroy it is still up in the air.

Elaida has had many foretellings which have come true. From her perspective, it seemed like she would be the one to usher in many of them, but alas, she got caught up in her own press and payed the price for her failures.

This is a thought of a friend of mine. He is pretty sure that Logain will be the one to confront Taim and his band of Asha'man. I'm not so sure of this theory, but it would help those not loyal to Taim to have a figurehead they can follow.
Wilson Grooms
556. Aye Aye Sedai
508. Freelancer Re Cadsuane - again my point was that perhaps she is wrong to think that Rand needed to be Care bear Huggy and Laughter - (not just that she goes about it like a sledgehammer on crystal) but Min's vision is that she will teach him an important lesson - Has this been done? Can Brandon kill her in a traumatic and horrendous death- his words :))

In the middle of the book I thought this vision was fulfilled by teaching him to kill Semirage (and Graendal) and giving the A'shaman the leeway to use balefire on the forsaken. But then she sends in Tam al'Thor and while not exactly what she wanted to effect - has lead to Rand's soul searching and vision on the Mount. However this latter effect doesn't lead to any effect with the A'shaman so I don't think this was the outcome of the vision.

@50x - Rand was not Compelling Tuon - it was just the taveren tugging at Tuon - but it was not time to commit so she was able to sidestep so that all the Prophesies may be fufilled.

499. Doomriders
Don't recall RJ ever professing his own strong Catholic beliefs or ties - through or into his works. I do remember talking with him about the hate mail and blacklisting and general shit he received from devout religious folks who thought he was the DO and perverting their version of Christianity/Catholicism - mainly with the "magic" one power but also with the DO etc, etc, etc. This was around the time of the 4 or 5 th book and he thought he might be physically assaulted or bombed sometime by the virulent hate he encountered.


Re Black Oaths - Only reason for BA to take an oath on the rod is to restore the ageless look. DF can just give an oath. So the question is whether one oath is enough or if more than one is needed. So the wording is likely to allow a loophole - and perhaps has definition based upon the mind of the oather - such as with an AS needing to feel in imminent danger to use the OP as a weapon - thus sending a warder or themselves into battle.

Not clear if Verrin had different letters for matt or if she had letters for different people. Wonder if she would have died faster if some one had peaked and opened the letter early or if it was sufficient that she thought that she was going to be dead or saved.

Side question - did the BA that was re-oathed in the cellars get executed or allowed to live and be reformed? I was surprised at the large number of BA in each camp - would have thought smaller but more important and key figures - selectively picked. Numbers this large would have created issues much much sooner and allowed faster discovery,
Wilson Grooms
557. Branwhin
Yeep. Good luck, here, Tor ... this post is going to be heavier than the proverbial mountain by the time we're done!

Further wow-ness.

And while I'm still feeling thoroughly smug that The Dragon seems to be back in fighting form *mentally,* (though I doubt very much all his issues are gone), the poor fellow is still missing a hand, has a few extra holes in his anatomy (don't sneeze, dear), and now he's addicted to crack! YUCK.

I seem to recall him mentioning, too, that the CK temptation was balancing out his new addiction. Well, we saw in Ebou Dar that he doesn't want to channel saidin anymore. Uh-oh.

Fortunately, Lews Therin recognized the Dark One's power right off, so he knows just how nasty it is. And Rand al'Thor is the most stubborn individual on the planet. Probably *all* of him are that stubborn, actually; they/he need/s to be.

(Grr ... I wonder if the Heroes, in TAR, ever lament about the sudden need for different grammar to discuss various aspects of different lives?)

Now Moridin, I bet, if he realizes what happened or that was his hope all along, will be throwing temptation at Rand as fast as he can.

Also, regarding Egwene, I really loved her 'locked in a box' scene, where she came to realize just how horrible Rand's time was - how much worse he suffered. Once she has her moments of prophecied anger, whatever the trigger might be, I agree with the hope that it's a bridge between them.

And, while I was squeeing as hard as anybody during her ass-kicking scenes (most of them, frankly), I also noticed the near Mary-Sueish tendencies, and wish they had been less.

Though I must say I liked Adelorna's frantically disgusted "Battle Ajah indeed!" when she's getting pwned by the Seanchan. That degree of self-awareness is necessary! And I'm really worried about Myrelle and Lan...

Whee! Free, Subwoofer, glad you could join us so soon! Much WOT goodness still to be shared.

Err, what's a snickerdoodle, and may I have one? I brought leftover candy.

Brannie
Wilson Grooms
558. MatFan
Freelancer@401

I suppose its possible the correlation between the Rand ala Moridin might have in a far off epic fantasy be possible---i'll it at that........

However You brought up somehting else i wanted to touch on...Rand's aura. I have a strange suspicion that he wants not limiting himself to the one occasion for its use. We had him channeling a few other times and i dont really recall him doubling over in nausea after his use the first time. Its something i noted while reading and before he got rid of LTT.

I'd like to hear more thoughts on that.
Rob Sellers
559. RobSS
Just finished. A new record for me. 5 days

Sitting here now, the first thing that pops into my mind is Matt's screen time.
"women" I laughed out loud.

Loved it (even the part I hated)

When does book 13 come out?
Brandon Davis
560. bdavis562002
Interesting Theory:
1. Graendal kills Asmodean without balefire.
2. Rand balefires the living begeesus out of Grandal.
3. Asmodean is revived.
James Jones
561. jamesedjones
557 Branwhin
Err, what's a snickerdoodle, and may I have one?
Snickerdoodles are plain cookies with cinnamon and and sugar sprinkled on top. Help yourself, but be careful. If you like cinnamon, they're more addictive than the TP.
Wilson Grooms
562. Aye Aye Sedai
60. bdavis562002 and others

I think way to much time has passed from Asmo disappearing act to ever be returned - I assume the sheer power of BF was to capture the whole Palace and looks to have gone back in time al least 1-2 hrs - to affect the Compulsion Canary. Not clear that it went so far back as to have erased everything Graendal did - not even back to the start of this book else we should have see other effects reversed as well. Only way we will ever know it was Graendal is if we see a flash back in the next prologue gloating over killing asmo as she weaves Compulsion on the Canary or while having tea and then fade to white _ bwahhha

The best theory is that it was lanfear - only character that would have put fear on his face IMHO.
Leslie Annis
563. Lannis
Okey-dokey... um, forgive me, I haven't read all the comments, and frankly, it's almost my bedtime, so I thought I'd share then revisit the thread tomorrow...

First off: Yay! Finally done! Took a while, but with a gaggle of kids, who can blame me?!

One thing that drove me NUTS here was that even though Egwene was fabulous 98% of her screen time, I just wanted her to TALK to Gawyn... I mean, WTF? Girl's been moping around and pining after him for how many books, and then barely has the time of day for him?! I mean, dude not only tried to save your life, Girlie, but he slept outside your tent flap to get a word with you! Cut the boy some slack--at least let him know that you two need to have a heart to heart later... don't be so frakking callous! ARGH!

Glad to see I'm not the only one who noted that Mat's voice was a little different (Leigh @ 54)--though I wonder how much of that is to be passed off as his mental core is a little shaken now that he's married? Changed man? Hmm?

Aaaaand even though Verin is Black, I still heart Verin. I agree with Leigh--awesomesauce all the way, had a tissue in my hand and had to go and read it through again just to make sure I was really reading what I thought I was... oh, Verin, I will miss your little black heart and white soul... :(

And the whole thing was overall so good I give it a hearty two thumbs up--you know if my thumbs still worked properly after so many hours of propping up that giant tome! ;)

A big thanks to Team Jordan! The words "thank you" just don't suffice!

Oh, and Branwhin @ 557 this is a snickerdoodle. :)
Wilson Grooms
564. Snowlan
This responds to comments 499 and 556, regarding Robert Jordan's religious affiliation.

His funeral took place at St. Stephen's Episcopal Church in Charleston, SC. That meshed with my prior understanding that he was Episcopal (i.e. Anglican), rather than Roman Catholic, at least in the later part of his life. I could be corrected, but that's my understanding.

So . . . For those who need a refresher, the Anglican/Episcopal Church has a lot of liturgy and ceremony (like Roman Catholicism), and has bishops (like Roman Catholicism), but does not acknowledge the primacy of the Pope. It is basically the world-wide church that grew from the Church of England -- meaning it has one foot in the Protestant world and one foot in the Catholic world.

In a very frivolous way, I've heard it said:

"The Anglican Communion: Catholic-lite -- all the liturgy, but half the guilt." (Apologies to anyone I've offended with that ancient joke.)
Wilson Grooms
565. cps2195
Aye Aye Sedai @ 562:

totally agree with you about Asmo being gone for good.


If Graendal is really dead then I really doubt she is Asmo's killer. Having a reveal through another character seems kind of weak.

Asmo's death happened after Lanfear was in Finnland so at the tie of his death she was eithe a.) captured
B.) reincarnated in the body of Cyndane (who other forsaken don't recognize)
Kelly Houk
566. conanoxen
cps2195@565

My understanding of balefire is not that when someone is balefired that everything that they have done is erased or returned to normal, just those things that they have done within a certain amount of time. This would depend on the strength of the balefire used.

If balefire erased everything that someone had done, then Rand could saved everyone that Graendel killed or compulsed. Since balefire doesn't undo everything, then it only changes recent things. So even if she didn't balefire Asmodean, he is dead, even if Graendel was the killer, because balefire wouldn't fix his death. Plus the DO would not want to bring back a FS that had betrayed him by training Rand. Plus Asmo didn't appear to have too much ambition, he was like FS-lite.
Wilson Grooms
567. Aye Aye Sedai
Oh has any one compiles a history on Verrin and checked it for consistency? I've got this - (from 13th Depository) Sorilea gave Verin tasteless drops which in a small dose (three drops in water or one in wine) induce sleep and in larger doses kill (Winter’s Heart, Wonderful News). Verin was prepared to use them on Cadsuane until reassured that Cadsuane’s aims about Rand were compatible with her own.

I assume this is not what she used on herself since she wanted a stong tasting tea to hide the poison taste - why?

Also why did she agree with Cadsuane and also participate in killing Forsaken during the cleansing - would these have not been contrary to the BA goals? Was she free to pick her own orders or was she considered a lowly clerk in the BA and ignored.

Also giving the dream ter'angeralto the SG - was that not a betrayal?

Also what's the point in having a secret code when the code book is always with it? is that not like writing the combo to the lock on the back?

I will agree that she knew a lot about the prophesies and appears to have worked to move them along - question is why check out now ? Wondering what she knew and when she knew it - damn AS secrecy?

Also if the point of being aDF/BA/Chosen is self interest - isn't she a little too generous?

Just Sayin' cause I dont see anyone else saying.
Wilson Grooms
568. cps2195
conanoxen@566:

I think you got my comment mixed up with someone else's.

agree with you completely.

I saw a really interesting thought on the Dragonmount board regarding the Tinkers.

What's the deal with a NEED search brining Egwene to a Tinker caravan?
Wilson Grooms
569. Aye Aye Sedai
@565. cps2195 Asmo's death happened after Lanfear was in Finnland so at the time of his death she was either a.) captured
B.) reincarnated in the body of Cyndane (who other forsaken don't recognize)


I'm not sure she was captured - if like Matt - the Finns escort would present her to the "council" (for lack of better description) - if she is aware or if like Matt she Rants and mentions 3 wishes then they will be granted - lets assume she like Matt also forgets to negotiate the bargain price which results in her death and then she can be resurrected ala Cyndane.

SO - it is possible and likely that she wished to kill Asmo and mentioned it aloud. Recall - he is not able to be reborn due to the How and the Where (and no BF/saidar/in was felt) Now this might suggest his death in Finland is beyond the DOs power to soul grab so this requires Lanfear to have been returned to the world before dying to allow the DO to grab her soul.


Hey - Pablo et al - can we get multiple discussion posts going - separated for - i dunno - characters - or themes. This blog will be linger than the one we broke way back when.....
Wilson Grooms
570. Laurel4Amyrlin
@567

Verin wasn't alone in being able to fight the Forsaken during the cleansing despite being BA -- Elza did too.
Wilson Grooms
571. Doomriders
I was always under the impression that there were maybe a few hundred Aes Sedai. I usually had a count around 500-700 in my head. So when they said 200 were black it threw me a bit. I guess there were a lot more than the writing has ever lead on to.
Sam Mickel
572. Samadai
ayeayesedai @567

Verin wasn't selfish. She decided 70 years ago to study the Black Ajah. She got far enough into the Ajah where she had 2 choices join them or die. She chose to join them for self-survival and for the chance to continue studying them.

She was never Black at heart and only did what she did to survive. That is why she took her ending the way she did. She knew that Egwene was the best chance for a whole tower and gave her the tools she had been working with.
Sam Mickel
573. Samadai
Various commenters @ multiple posts,
Re: Verins letters,

Do not forget that Verin did not know if she was meeting Mat or Perrin, so it is entirely possible that 1 or more of the letters is for Perrin.
Greg Bloom
574. MuleHeadedLummox
@534 DRock

I had an idea for Demandred's identity in the prologue when he said: "My rule is secure. I gather for war. We will be ready." There is one place in particular where he could be ruling that has just gathered for war: Murandy. It would be ironic if Talmanes and the Band had helped Demandred secure the country under Roedran, who could be either Demandred himself or one of his proxies. Of course, other theories place him with the borderlanders, the Legion of the Dragon, and in Shara. All we know for sure is that his cover did not appear 'onscreen' (although he may have been mentioned) pre-KoD as per Jordan.

@571 Doomriders

There were approximately 1000 Aes Sedai at the start of the series. They split about in thirds with Elaida's takeover, with about a third supporting her, a third among the rebels, and a third just sitting on the sidelines waiting to see how the schism ended and not choosing a side. 200 total puts Black Ajah membership around 20%, as has been stated in previous posts, and does seem high, but then it's possible some were turned with the 13/13 trick.
Darth Agilus
575. darth.agilus
Professional Lurker here with my first post.

Fantastic work by Team Jordan! I loved it more than any book in years, maybe ever.

Everyone’s really covered my favorite scenes well but wanted to toss a few in. One of my favorites was the repeated use of “I’ll do whatever must be done” by different characters. Egwene and Elaida are great foils showing us just where Rand has gone psychologically. When Egwene says it, she is typically making a hard decision. Usually it is strict but fair, for the greater good, and the best possible choice. When Elaida says it she’s talking about forcing people to do exactly what she wants and it is often a horrible decision. With Rand prior to this book he was more like Egwene. This phrase was always about his acceptance that he would die. But now it is about his making hard, morally ambiguous decisions. They appear to be tactically correct but are completely Machiavellian. The problem isn’t that he’s as bad as Elaida but he’s stopped struggling with these decisions. A slipperly slope leading to making the easy decisions and thus becoming Elaida. But he’s no there yet.

I'll throw more up later but I need to say great job to BS and thanks to everyone involved. Don't listen to the nitpickers. It was a heck of a job and we appreciate your efforts and the hard decisions you had to make.
Jacy Clark
576. Amalisa
Aye Aye Sedai@567

Re Verin

First, I think that the DO et al did underestimate her. There were something like 200 Black Ajah, by her figures. Those BA's are/were certainly given to the same internal prejudices that they all are. Specifically, Browns are lost in their own thoughts, oblivious to the world yadda yadda yadda. There's also a certain amount of arrogance on the part of the DO, Himself. She had taken the vow (I'll get back to that in a minute) and that should be enough. She alluded to things she had done in His service, so no doubt there is death and destruction, murder and mayhem that can be laid at her feet. Enough to quiet any suspicions as she went about her real purpose.

And, yes, I still heart her.

Remember, beginning with New Spring and following, Cadsuane was herself a great big question mark. I went back to the scene you are recalling I don't know how many times because the whole entire question seemed to hinge on what Verin believed. (I might add, that was what finally convinced me that they both were not Black.) I see now the beauty of it - Verin was assured that Cadsuane was not Black and, therefore, could live. Because Verin recognized that, with Moiraine's death, Cadsuane was the one in best position to guide/advise/protect Rand. If she'd decided that Cadsuane was Black, she would have killed her. I have no doubt.

Yes, it is safe to assume that the liquid that Sorilea gave her was not asping rot.

I'm guessing you meant the cleansing of saidin and the attack of the Forsaken? Well, she admitted to Egwene that self-preservation was pretty important to her. Even Elza, during her internal monologue, hoped the Great Lord would understand if she had to kill a Chosen. Which she did. Verin and her group (Shalon the Windfinder and Kumira, another Brown Sister) fought with Graendal but, obviously, did not kill her.

You asked for a timeline for Verin. I find myself going back to Encyclopedia WOT a lot. Here is the link to Verin's character information. This may help.

In her chat over tea with Egwene, she stated that she had been commanded by the Amyrlin (Siuan, at that time) to give the SG's information regarding the thirteen BA who had fled the Tower. She did give Egwene the dream ter'angreal of her own volition. You know, I think back to that and remember that immediately after Egwene left her room, Verin became very distracted. I wonder (and we'll likely never know) if she'd developed something of a safeguard for times when she did act against the Dark One... Will have to think about that some more... But to answer your question, yes, it was a betrayal. Something that underlines what her true mission really was, I think.

As for keeping the two books together... that's what the ter'angreal bookmark was for - to keep them hidden. Anyone careful enough to successfuly infiltrate the BA for seventy years would be careful enough to protect her secrets. And if that doesn't satisfy as an answer, well... she gave them together to Egwene. Doesn't mean she kept them together all the time.

Don't consider Verin as a one dimensional DF/BA; she wasn't. Yes, self-preservation was important ("I joined them to keep my skin intact.") but self-sacrifice was also at the heart of her actions. By her account, she'd put herself in a position to study Darkfriends and the Black Ajah before swearing the oath to the DO. Apparently, the last serious error she made seventy years ago was in finding herself in a position where she had to, um, piss or get off the pot, so to speak. She had the courage to take the extra step, and she did.

I don't know why she chose to end it now. I'm guessing that that question may be answered as a result of the other things she'd put in motion. Maybe, circumstances being what they are, heading at breakneck speed toward Tarmon Gaidon, she had been forced to overplay her hand and knew it was about to catch up with her. Maybe she recognized that Egwene's first logical action as Amyrlin would be to purge the BA from the White Tower, in which case she would be exposed. Any one of those reasons or all of them or something else entirely. I imagine we'll find out, though.

Oh, and the Oath. The phrase ...at the hour of my death.... In the Catholic faith, part of the "Hail Mary" also uses that same wording: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." I don't believe that either was meant to be so literally time specific (not "hour=sixty minutes" but "hour=when we die") but, in Verin's case, it was enough to provide her with the necessary loophole. Yay for that!
Wilson Grooms
577. Silvertip
Well done! The occasional glitches and "that doesn't sound right" much outweighed by everything that was done right.

Verin -- the Verin reveal matches what I've said for a long time is by far the best kind of reveal (in mysteries, say). That is: I never saw it coming, but in retrospect it's the way it really had to be. Not deus ex machina at all. She's pretty much the ultimate Brown ... of COURSE she would infiltrate the BA just to study the phenomenon! And then of COURSE she'd wind up getting trapped! And then be smart enough to blow them up on her own terms! It makes sense of everything in a way that's totally true to the character. Perfect. (And "that dress you're wearing is green" just about made me spray my coffee).

(Well, OK, maybe the "hour of my death" in the vow was a little bit of DeM. Anybody know if that was set up in an earlier book?)

If the other major "what's up with ... " character, namely Taim, is resolved in such a satisfying way, I will die happy. BTW, I was as convinced as anyone that Taim was Demandred, but there's no way that RJ intended that and then abandoned it when the commentators homed in on it. Those of us on these lists are a very small part of the universe of folks who read and like these books. Changing a storyline around in pique that somebody in a corner of the internet figured it out? Never.

Re the True Power -- put me firmly in the camp that thinks Semirhage was set up. The whole thing was planned (by Ishamael? DO himself? Beats me)to lure Rand into channeling the TP and plunge him deeper into psychic and moral darkness. Which immediately starts undermining him -- I was really struck by the contrast between the first impressions Rand made on Ituralde and on Tuon. Tuon picked up, not on what was wrong, but that *something* was, and it ended whatever chance there was for a truce and alliance against the Shadow.

The Perrin arc felt like the only thing that wound up being clumsy at the division after AMOL was split into three. (But, the three shall be one ...). Major events like Perrin encountering Galad and Morgase's uncovering taking place offstage and only referred to indirectly? Ah well. I can live with it, but it's clumsy.

I loved Min putting Cadsuane and Nynaeve in their place near the end of the book. She's totally right: They are repeating Elaida's mistake, although in much more well-meaning fashion.

I've opined before that Mat was the character RJ identified with most, and thus wrote the best dialogue for. I think Mat's not so much done poorly here as we're all so used to the incredible writing RJ did for him. That said, he did descend a bit into foppishness with the long backstories he invented, I wish someone had talked BS out of that.

I can't add anything to what everybody above has said about Egwene and awesomeness. So I'll limit myself to: Holy Shit!

How many days until ToM?

S
Michael Johnson
578. ZshadeZ
"The three must be as one"

People channeling? Bah. This holds the same problem with me as is the threee were nations bound. There are too many nations and too many channelers. What Three do we know? POWERS. Saidar, Saidin, TP. We know people can link using the male and female half in tendem, but if a link used all three, through a powerful TA...

Thats my idea on it. ^^
T C
579. Freelancer
Isilel@528
Umm, yea, balefire destroys the Pattern, particularly when used by the Dragon Reborn and in large quantities. That mass food spoilage in Arad Doman was probably the direct result of the balefiring of Graendal's compound.

Unrelated, IMO. The food spoilage is related to Rand, I agree. But there are two far better conjectures than as a result of balefire. 1) Rand's emotional darkness, with him being the Dragon and "one with the land", drives the rotting. 2) His use of the TP on Semirhage and Elza, the release of the darkness and expansion of the Dark One's touch which that event allowed. Everyone sees the shadow aura around him after that, surely a side effect could be the food spoilage.


lbrown@530
It clearly says that Lews Therin had never been there in the first place.

Not quite so, here is what it says:
He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

A trick of semantics. Indeed they were not two men. They were two incarnate personalities of one man, one soul. Robert Jordan said as much. When once the Lews Therin personality could gain peace within himself about Ilyena, that although she did indeed die at his hand she could also have lived again, loved again, then the two could join as one. Could, as Semirhage said, integrate.

Ilyena was always the key. I have mixed opinions about whether it is wise or even useful if Rand decides to find a current-day Ilyena incarnation. It doesn't matter, his soul is at peace. On the other hand, Ilyena Sunhair seems to point very strongly at Elayne.


brad21088@539
I'm so conflicted about the Seanchan. They bring stability, yes, but those who give up personal liberty for safety deserve neither, and all that.
So, if you believe the quote from which your last line derives, how can you be conflicted? Stability at what cost? No, I'm not conflicted about the Seanchan. Tyranny brings stability and security, but not liberty nor personal peace. And when liberty is unavailable to one segment of society, it doesn't truly exist for any.


pattack@540

Not if you subscribe to Taimandred.


pattack@544

Considering the Red/Black motif of Taim's palace at the Black Tower, it is strongly suspected by some that Moridin is his benefactor. Nobody yet knows where Demandred is. Graendal had visited Shara and brought back "pets", with an intention of getting Sammael interested in that direction, but we never find out why. Some believe this is evidence that Demandred is there, and Graendal wanted to intigate a fight between the two.


Aye Aye Sedai@556

Min's vision is that Cadsuane will teach a lesson to Rand and the Asha'man, to all of them. And they won't like it one bit. So no, it hasn't happened, and Cadsuane survives for a few more chapters.

Regarding the Black sisters in the Tower, given how Egwene dealt with those in the rebel camp, I cannot see her having any additional tolerance for those. Off with their heads!


Doomriders@571

There were somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 Aes Sedai total during the months following the Tower split.


Amalisa@576

Yes! I forgot to add that earlier. Verin's statement that it had been over 70 years since she last made a serious mistake was clearly her attempt to infiltrate the Black and getting caught, which demanded that she join or die. Also, taking note of the specific wording of the Oath, she couldn't begin spilling the details to Egwene until after she'd begun sipping the tea, meaning after it was certain that she was in "the hour of her death".
Wilson Grooms
580. Silvertip
Postscript: Anybody else get one of those bad feelings in the stomach from the similarities between Rand's dark aura and the description of Ishamael when he first appears in the Heart of the Stone at the end of TDR? This just can't be good.
Lindy Brown
581. lbrown
The funny thing is that with all this talk of Mat being the comic relief, the funniest comment in the book to me was not made by Mat, but by Min.

When Rand explained to her about LTT in his head and how he seized the power that one time, Min thought,"Light! He let the voice in his head wield the One Power?"

That comment had me giggling for like 3 minutes before I could get back to reading.
T C
582. Freelancer
Ahh, regarding Mesaana...

Here is Graendal's internal POV from the Prologue:
Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Granedal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities.
So Graendal knew for certain the hidden identity of Mesaana, and that it is a sister. No Laras, no servant, no non-channeler. I still say Danelle is the best candidate.

And I noted, while poking around again, not a word from Moghedien or Cyndane in this volume.
sandi vogel
583. sinfulcashew
Whew! I thought I might have to sign in again and am sooooo glad that I don't. I think it took me 5 min. just to fast forward down to this little box.

Obviously I haven't read all the comments yet. Will try to keep up over the next week?

!!!!!~LOVED THIS BOOK~!!!!!

So much happening, had to stop and digest.
One thing that stopped me in my tracks was the chapter heading:
The Death of Tuon.....
Just made me go HUH? How could he do that? (For some reason she is one of my favs. I think?)
My mind is going faster than the speed of light trying to figure out why?
Of course it didn't take too long to find out what was really going on, thank goodness.
I noticed that Leigh didn't make much of it.
Once I start to finish these comments, I'll probably hear a lot of stuff about it, I would think!

I haven't really twitched too much with the rereads, probably because I have the books and have been reading in between.
But now, I am going to be seriously twitchy and itchy and a basket case waiting for the next two books.

It is just so cool that Rand has finally gotten his groove back, and Eg is where she is (although I wish we could have followed Evilaida in her capture, etc.)
Verin was certainly a surprise and a welcome interlude?(wrong word) as I have never really gotten close to her. She didn't get in the front of things too much? I never thought her a Black though. But then she really wasn't!
Will certainly keep abreast of her and her doings in future rereads.

Some of the things that happen, seem to happen off screen and it is like something is missing by not getting a close up?????

Well, I am going to go up above and try to get through the comments by the next weekend?


EDIT:
Any one got any idea how to get back to the top -really- fast??

EDIT AGAIN:
DUH.....figured it out on my own. I am tho thmart?
sandi vogel
584. sinfulcashew
PS
I have lost track of Moridin being here?????
I have no memory of Rand and Moridin.
I used to have a question about a man waaaayyy back that helped Rand but ????
Wilson Grooms
585. Dholton
Not just a Looney Theory, but a Truly Looney Theory:

Where is Demandred? What forces has he gathered? What if he's be come the King of the Land of Madmen? A bunch of lunatic saidin wielders somehow under his control. Ouch!
Wilson Grooms
586. Man Bear Pig
i just want to know if any one else has an issue with their book around page 224. i seem to be missing pages and it skips back to the previous chapter.
Birgit
587. birgit
I haven't read all the comments yet, but this is getting long enough anyway.

How do people manage to read the whole book for the first time in 6 hours? Amazon Germany delivered Thursday noon and I finished Sunday noon.

I think Rand's new sword is Justice is Guaire Amalasan's sword.
The sword was found near a statue. It might have been the Hawkwing statue in the abandoned stedding where he wanted to build his new capital. Hawkwing's career started during the War of the Second Dragon. He lead the capture of the False Dragon and could easily have taken his sword. Amalasan knew a lot about the Prophecies and could have had a sword with dragons. Hawkwing kept the sword and later it was called Justice.

"3 must be 1" theories:
- Rand forms a cirlce with El and Avi that is different from a normal circle because of their bond.
- Rand/LTT merges with Moridin. Alivia leads a circle using Callandor and severs them from the TP. Because the Dragon / Fisher King is one with the land, that severs the connection between the DO and the world, closing the Bore. Rand's body and Moridin's soul die and Rand lives in Moridin's body.

Graendal's lair is a castle/palace, not a city. Rand's strategy for killing her is clever (I do think she is really dead). It would be great if someone mentally stable like Bryne was doing it (of course he can't channel). The problem is that it is Rand who does it and it is a step in his development to "balefire everybody who doesn't do what I want".
The DO set up the sacrifice of Semi to break Rand's killing inhibition and turn him into a TP-wielding "balefire all" destroyer of the Pattern. The access to the TP comes directly from the DO, but Rand's knowledge of TP weaves might come from Moridin. The weaves must be different from OP weaves and Rand had no other way to learn how to do things with the TP.
Another parallel between Rand and Moridin is that Rand is often wearing Moridin's colors in this book.

Cads figures out how to break Semi because she thinks about how to break herself. Rand could get a tame AS by spanking Cads.

The assassins are called bloodknives. They can't hang around long to cause trouble later because their ter'angreal kills them after a few days. Who collects the ter'angreal after a bloodknife mission?

It fits that Elaida is captured before she realizes what is going on. She wouldn't have been good at fighting back anyway because she is too arrogant to believe that something could happen to her.

Are Verin's letters instructions for catching darkfriends? If the recipients open the letters after she is dead, that doesn't violate the Oath.
Did Verin ward the Draghkar that attacked Moiraine at Adeleas and Vandene's house?

Is Avi Rand's second chance for Ilyena?

Maybe Tam gets together with Setalle Anan.

Dragon Reborn/nominal head of the Black Tower (I forget, do they have an actual title for that yet?)

Taim is the M'Hael of the Black Tower, not Rand.

And since the prevailing theory of readers is that she killed Asmodean (I still say Lanfear did, but I can't think how she did it), let's use that for little discussion (I'm sure you all see where I'm headed).

Asmo's death is too long ago. Balefire that would be strong enough to bring him back woud rip the Pattern apart first.

And how did they know Halima was a Forsaken and not just a man weaving a Saidin illusion around herself all the time to confuse everybody?

What man except a Forsaken would disguise himself and live in the middle of AS?

Faile killing Masema in Pro was a pleasant surprise but I couldn't figure out who served as her troops and how she could be sure they wouldn't talk to Perrin. Any ideas?

Cha Faile, Faile's sworn former gai'shain, maybe Two Rivers men who believe he was with Berelain.

And wagon wheels? Seriously?

The wagons were just a distraction so Perrin wouldn't have to think about his real problems.

I would not be surprised if the Battle of Caemlyn turns out to be the "meeting point" of all the major characters before the start of Tarmon Gai'don. Elayne's already there, Mat's planning on going there (even if he drops by the Tower of Ghenji on his way to pick up Moiraine)

Mat first goes to Caemlyn and then to the Tower.

Either they've got a black box ter'angreal that manufactures a'dams without anyone having to understand the weaves, or some Seanchan secretly already do know the truth.

Some damane can make a'dam.

As Tam said to Rand (thus provoking the final catharsis): "The choice isn't always about what you do, son, but why you do it."

Dumbledore said the same thing to Harry.

Also, re: "The Power winked out", I immediately assumed that Rand had just accidentally turned off the True Source, but that can't possibly be it.

When Rand destroyed the CK, of course the large amount of saidin he could channel through it vanished.

What were the new chapter icons? I noticed the mice, but no others.

The mice are not new, they already appeared in New Spring, where Siuan and Moiraine put mice in Elaida's bed. There is a new icon for the fracturing Pattern.

The two sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor are the male Choedan Kal and the female Choedan Kal.

Lanfear says that there were two male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. One is the male CK, the other is unknown.

Also I dont know how Rand is going to bind the nine moons to him. Is Tuon considered the Daughter of the Nine Moons still now that she is Empress?

The Seanchan emperial court is the Court of the Nine Moons. Tuon was the Daughter of the Nine Moons, so Fortuona is the Nine Moons. Mat has to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, but Rand has to bind the Nine Moons to him.
Maiane Bakroeva
588. Isilel
Verin didn't keep the code with the "work". In the chapter where she Compels the da'tsang sisters she thinks that it might be time to _write down_ the code soon. She kept it in her head until then.

I really hope that Egs thinks to get Verin's notebooks too, with all the stuff about ta'veren studies. I still don't get why she didn't give Egs her angreal and the latest notebook that she must have had on her and why she endangered Egs by dying in her room. What if Meidani didn't come or wasn't strong enough to Travel?

Oh, and I guess that Verin could justify giving Egs the Dream ring by the danger it represented and opportunities for the Shadow to manipulate the SGs that it offered. Maybe that's why she didn't give Egs Coreanin Nedeal's notes as well - too much of a betrayal of the DO if she did.

On that occasion Verin also gave Egs hints that Ishy may still be out and about and probably never wholly imprisoned, but in a rather cryptic fashion that probably let her get away with it.

Oh, and I now have a wholly unsupported theory that Martine Jumata (Setalle) didn't make a mistake when she got burned out, but was eliminated by the BA because she was getting on to something or maybe because she shared Avi's Talent and it was considered to be too much of an advantage for the Light. I have a sinking sensation that whatever happened to her may have been Verin's work - under orders, of course.

Also, Verin, rather than a gholam could have been the one to kill Barthanes. Tearing somebody apart with the OP is not difficult.

Verin could be the one behind the spearing of Demira as well, as she could just recruit local and Aiel DFs to do it. The BA are fairly high on the overall DF pecking order. And as we know now Verin's motivations could be... complex.

And speaking of the BA - it was a bit of a cheat that only Sheriam out of people truly close to SGs turned out to be one. When Egs read the list and supposedly recognized the names of many people she liked, _I_ recognized only Sheriam and Moria, which seriously weakened the effect.
Of course, given how persuasively, open-mindedly and reasonably Moria spoke in favor of an alliance with male channelers, it was quite a boomer to find out that she was a BA and that all the supposed progress in that direction was probably aimed at getting Egs close circle 13x13ed.

Sheriam... was a disappointment. She really seemed too bumbling to be a BA to me and her reveal POV actually confirmed that she was a rather hapless DF. And then suddenly she was supposed to be really high up in the BA, one of the 3 who knew of Alviarin's position?
Completely unbelievable, IMHO. Somebody of her relatively young age would have had to be brilliant to get so far so quickly and we had ample proof that she was anything but. Both Alviarin and Galina are/were vastly more intelligent and capable.
Oh and that explanation of Min's vision seemed really clumsy, too.

I still think that a nasty, but not DF Lelaine with Sheriam as her pawn would have been more interesting, but whatever.

Speaking of looking for Mesaana and deducing Elaida's and BAs plans from their possessions, Egwene should really charge Siuan with it, IMHO. It is right up Siuan's alley.

Freelancer: balefire destabilizes the Pattern and presumably more so when done by Rand or Ishy would have just grabbed the access key himself and gone nuts with it.
The negative effects of Rand on the Pattern come from Rand's darkness and TP use, yes, but their magnitude is amplified by destabilization of the Pattern, IMHO.
That's why Ishydin told Rand to use balefire on the FS. It all hangs together and should have sent things into an inescapable downward spiral.
Susan Brownhill
589. SusanB
I think I've caught up on all the comments & there is something that no one has mentioned. In a previous reread many people commented on another taveren (sp?) being out there. Lots of people were trying to guess the identity.

So, now I am wondering...is Tuon (Fortouna) the other taveren? To me it makes sense b/c she was able to resist Rand's taveren pull when they met. She struggled, but she resisted. The struggle makes sense b/c Rand would be a much stronger Taveren. But he is not someone whom a normal person could resist. Also, she has never met Nicola, who can see Taveren.

What does everyone think?
Rob Munnelly
590. RobMRobM
"Verin could be the one behind the spearing of Demira as well, as she could just recruit local and Aiel DFs to do it. The BA are fairly high on the overall DF pecking order. And as we know now Verin's motivations could be... complex."

That was one of my first thoughts after hearing about Verin as well. None of the other suspects fit perfectly (activities re Taim in the City might lead to retribution by Rand; not Fain's style; Davred Hanlon was not yet in the City (I think). The need for Verin to help create a roadblock to smooth sailing re the SAS embassy and the care taken not to kill Demira (who was a fellow Brown as I recall) now makes Verin the prime suspect. Rob

P.s. Lsiel - your Lelaine theory was brilliant and you pretty much had me convinced. Sorry it didn't work out (no doubt because BS didn't know that RJ had it in mind, of course.)
Maiane Bakroeva
591. Isilel
Thank you RobMRobM! It wasn't properly my theory though, IIRC, I just presented it here with some enthusiasm.

Anyway, I used to think that attack on Demira was Taim's work, because I couldn't discern a convincing reason for Verin to disrupt negotiations. But now I think that she may have just been under orders from the Shadow and obeyed them in the least destructive way she could.
Wilson Grooms
592. Mike G.
@328:

I doubt the dragons/dragon eggs are going to be used in the Last Battle, or at least not many. I'm thinking cannons/guns will be a 4th Age weapon.


Obviously, making the dragons out of cuendillar would simplify the construction and engineering a lot.

No Aes Sedai who has sworn the 3 oaths could/would do it, though.

So my loony theory is that Mat kidnaps Bode, and convinces her to cuendillar the dragons.

Or someone in the black tower (or Rand) finds the male weave for cuendillar, if there is one...
john massey
593. subwoofer
First off- Thank you Branwhin for the shout out- it's nice to be back. Wasn't sure of my time line as internet had to be hooked up and things have a tendency to go sideways recently:)

Is Fortuona ta'veren? I don't believe so. Ta'veren are usually drawn to each other and linked somehow and Fortuona exists outside that. Also, as demonstrated by Mat, the Pattern holds ta'veren tight and it is extremely... hard to resist the tug of Rand- Mat wanted to flee to a life of carousing and gambling, but the Pattern held him fast to Rand until Rand sent Mat elsewhere. If Fortuona was ta'veren then she would of been just as challenged to resist Rand.

Just to throw something else out there- why is Rand so queasy when tapping the power? He did cleanse Sadin, so that slick, greasy feeling should be gone. The only thing I can come up with are the wounds in his side, especially the one caused by Fain, reacting to the Source. I do not recall Rand feeling ill when he touched the True Source.

Speaking of Fain, what the deuce? How could such a pivotal character be missed? I was also missing Loial and Lan. At least Bela was there. Yay for Siuan! Also glad that Hopper smacked Perrin around. Maybe that will knock some sense into him. I don't get the single mindedness. Faile is with you dude, give over already!

I was also scratching my head at the destruction of the CK. Any thoughts on that? Granted Rand is full on kukoo for Cocoa Puffs now but still. Wasn't there a line about the draw of the CK canceling out the draw of the True Source? With Rand kacking the CK, does that mean he is going hard core for the True Power?

For Eggy- that white rod thingy came out of nowhere. And it was very convenient that the store room for major angreal was unguarded and everything was so easy to find. Regardless, the battle scene was awesome. That is the stuff that keeps me hanging on to this series- the high likelihood that as it approaches the end, serious whoop a$$ will be droppin'.

All in all kick butt! Next time, I get to be the Warder... *LOL

Woof™.
James Jones
594. jamesedjones
591 Isilel
Anyway, I used to think that attack on Demira was Taim's work, because I couldn't discern a convincing reason for Verin to disrupt negotiations.
While unlikely, they are not mutually exclusive. Looney Theory Time: I'd love it if Verin decided to expand her research over the last few months to include any dreadlords(dreadladies?). What if, through Alanna's clever research of the BT, Verin uncovered some DF Ashamen? We still have the sooper-dooper sneaky Verin we all know and love, but we can add the pseudo-Aiel men who are not afraid of AS, and willing to risk attacking one without killing her.

It's unlikely that Verin's book has a name that Egwene did not recognize, but I'd love it if she included it in a note to Mat or someone else.
Wilson Grooms
595. Shadowsouled
So after reading nearly 600 posts I think I can actually offer something new.

I, like many, worried about the fate of the sisters in the Black Tower (Theodrin, Faolain, Myrelle, and Nisao from the SAS and Tarna, Pevara et al from the TAS). However in LoC Min has a viewing of Faolain:

"A nasty woman. You'd think, if there was any justice, she would have an unpleasant future ahead of her."

So whatever happens to her at the BT, it's not bad enough to disallow her future from being pleasant. Hopefully the others are as safe.

And a big thanks to whoever reminded the board that Laras was in New Spring and therefore couldn't be Mesaana. Bugged the hell out of me everytime it came up.

Other than that, nothing else to say that hasn't been said. Egwene = AWESOME. Verin = AWESOME. TGS = AWESOME.
Ian Walker
597. Auspicium
Uhh, so I forgot to login for comment 595 , so you can direct all comments to this username now....

Also just occurred to me that if Faolain is a Darkfriend then being in the BT might not be so bad...
paul Hend
598. tugthis
The Halloween spirits were kind to me and delivered me my copy of TGS. Ruined most of football Sunday for me, but I am glad it is here. . . feel like I can start talking again.
Matthew Smith
599. blocksmith
Freelancer@401

Anyone that can throw out a Time Bandits quote is ok in my book. At least I think that's where the line came from.

Helen@420

The Seanchan raiding force orders were to capture or kill as many marath'damane as possible and they executed those orders. I think their actions put enough doubt in the AS minds as to what might happen when next they encounter Seanchan/Sul'dam to be able to fight.

Doomrider@501/505

See comments at 175...we are on the same page.

lbrown@532

After reading Graendal being BFed, I had a similar reaction. I had hoped for an Asmo-like death scene...flash to diaphonously gowned G lying on a couch immediately after her meeting with Rand's messenger (by the way, very similar w/o the bleeding to Sammael's messenger also used to manipulate G) where she realizes she is found by LTT/Rand, now has to move her base of operations, and is trying to decide which of her pretties will make the trip when the wall in front of her dissolves and she has just enough time to realize she doesn't need to worry about wearing clean underwear.

SusanB@589

During the review of these comments, I had the same thought while dwelling on the Tuon/Rand scene. How could she resist the T'averen pull that had affected so many others unless she was T'averen also?
Wilson Grooms
600. AlleyGirl
Verin! I'm going to miss her. I knew she couldn't be a true darkfriend. Sneaky till the end.

I wonder if Verin killed Amso?
john massey
601. subwoofer
Pssst Tor... October is over...

Was also thinking about Elaida. It seems to me that there is a bit of poetic justice going on here. Reds typically feel that all male channelers should be captured, shielded and eventually gentled. Eggs will eventually break that train of thought as hinted when she raised Silviana( no relation to the light bulbs) to Keeper. Anyways, Galina was a poop and through the oath rod, she became captive of Therava and is now living the life of not having control over herself or her power. Elaida- same thing, different pile.

Mores the pity about Alviarin getting away. She will have something coming too. And Alvi is the Grand Poobah of the BA. Marked by Shaidar Haran, I think that she will be a major player in the next book, maybe as a foil for Eggy, now that Eggy is truely, in all eyes, the Amyrlin.

Also, I profoundly hope that the Aiel regain their honor in the next book. I am very curious by the comments the WO made about doing spin control for the Dragon Reborn's ham fisted ways.

Glad to see the Seanchan, including O' Fortuona realizing the truth about Trollocs- could be a chapter title. A Fade really needs to enter the picture for her at some point. Scare the pants off of her and wise her up some.

Oh yeah- interesting new icon for Night in Hinderstap. I believe that is the "fracturing the Pattern" birgit mentions in the epic post.

Woof™.
john massey
602. subwoofer
Leigh? Is that you? 'Tis Monday! hows about a new post? Pretty, pretty, pretty pleazzzzze?

I'll buy you a pony. You could name it Bela...

Woof™.
Leslie Annis
603. Lannis
Forgive me if this has been said already... I'm still working through the comments and couldn't hold it in any longer...

[Looney Theory Time]

Okay... woke up this morning with a thought... Egwene has executed all the BA she can find... but aside from keeping them from dirtying up the White Tower until the Last Battle, they'll be back if needed... the DO will just bring 'em back to fight as Dreadlords if he needs them...

Sheriam's "halo/blaze of glory" anyone?!

Yeah--the confessions weren't enough for me to justify Min's viewing... perhaps Sheriam'll be kick ass as a double-crossing Dreadlord in the Last Battle? Hmm...

[/Looney Theory Time]

Pick 'er apart, folks!


Oh, and as for the language... there was (literally) a couple of words that stood out for me... I found the word "idiot" was used a little too much (RJ would probably have used "fool" for most of those "idiots" though not all); and the word "kingdom" suddenly was spouting everywhere... and the Ideal Seek link showed I wasn't wrong in thinking that "kingdom" up until this point was rather rare. I think it was used in tGS more than it was the rest of the series combined. Seriously.

That said, my official opinion is EXCELLENT WORK! So blissful!
Bob Smith
604. chiech22
I know that I have little chance of being read/actually responded to, but I need to know what I missed - didn't Rand BALEFIRE Semi, and why did it not erase back in time? He could have erased everything that happened with Min!

Oh well, I have much the same feelings as everyone else, but here there are:


The book was good/greatish ... in a word - Forced, but after Jordan that is to be expected.
Rand and Eg arc was great, I loved the character development; at times I was saying Rand - you are so right to be this way - too many times we have seen the BBEG with a gun/sword/lightsaber to the Hero's girlfriend's throat, and they give up the entire world to save the girlfriend. Lame. I for sure thought that Eg would invade the WT after escaping and screw everything up.
Matt - Holy OOC experience -it is like never knew you.
the Semi part was soooo well written, one of the best of the entire series

I am probably the only one, but I did not like Verin's death - come on an info dump for death, even from a Brown, is IMHO, poor. She was one of the most skillfully crafted characters I have ever read, and an info dump ...

Did anyone else think that Fain was going to suddenly appear at Dragonmount and cut off Rand's other hand and tumble into the volcano; hence, destroying the access key? Too JRR?

Lastly, I am an original reader - waited for every book and I have read Mistborns and 1/2 of Elantris, I even have his Alcatraz book (school librarian by trade and Brown for the survey). Brandon is as capable a writer as they could have found, and again, IMHO, the best there is to complete the series. I was at the Chicago signing, and he was great. Well done!! Come on ToM!!!
john massey
605. subwoofer
@Lannis- I am still hung up on Bloody Ashes. I wasn't sure if that was deliberate or Blood and Ashes coming out wrong. But that is me picking nits. I am profoundly grateful to BS for finishing this and not leaving us all hanging in the breeze.

Woof™.
Leslie Annis
606. Lannis
@ Sub: yeah, I found there were some new cusses in there that didn't sit right with me. No examples right now, though. But overall, I'd still highly recommend it. I wasn't disappointed!
AJ MacPherson
607. Mackey62
Ok, just finished the book yesterday, fricking Black Ajah (In-laws) coming to visit this week. Well they finally were balefired (left) and can get on with important things. Haven't read all the posts yet, so if already stated, I apologi!, but wanted to throw this out re: the TP. It is what Rand uses to seal the dark one in. If Saidar or Saidin are used, touch the Dark One, they become tainted per LTT, so the TP has to be used. Another case of something bad happening that needs to happen for good to win. Just my 2 cents.

Leigh, great recap as always. You rock.

Now to read all of your comments. :)
Kurt Lorey
608. Shimrod
The only drawback to very many executed BA being brought back is that there seems to be a shortage of available bodies at Shayol Ghul.

Some random thoughts.

Now that Rand has laughed, maybe him bowing to the Crystal Throne isn't so far fetched. Of course, is it the Throne, regardless of who might be currently sitting on it, or Fortunoa herself, as the Crystal Throne embodied?

Demandred. Shara, the Borderlanders, or Trollocs? "My rule is secure". Sounds kind of like Shara being the best bet there.

Ack. It just hit me that Duhara became a Red Keeper to a Gray Amyrlin after Tamra's death. AND, she is in Caemlyn trying to become Elayne's AS advisor. Ack.

An ideas/looney theories as to just what game the Borderlanders are playing at?

C'mon. Admit to it. There must of been plenty of readers who cheered at Cadsuane's exile?

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that Mat's "new" lines were a mite bit overboard. That was the only drawback for me (albeit, a minor one).

Kind of breezed over the Galad - Morgase reunion. Reactions from Faile, Perrin, Alliandre? Would have been "very interesting". Maybe before the end of the series?
Wilson Grooms
609. Tabernerus
A few thoughts as I continue to get through the book (Verin just handed Mat a letter), though some of this is with a bit of spoilerish foreknowledge.

1.) Rand killing Graendel so easily, in an off-screen way, without her getting a PoV following the prologue. Yup, I think she really is dead. And I don't think it's a cheap way to finish her. Rand managed it because he was willing to do things that nobody else on Team Light seemed willing to do. It was effective, and probably even justified, but it was just so cold. And that's the thing - Rand is right. By being this hard and cold, he can indeed win the Last Battle. He is 100% correct. It may even be the best plan of attack for the Battle in amoral terms. Unfortunately, he's not fighting an amoral battle. In fact, this is pretty much the exact opposite of that. This is also why Tuon was exactly right in not submitting to the Dragon's will at Falme.

2.) I loved that Verin's "Ta'varen Tug" story to Mat was almost certainly a giant pile of bull. Even better, it was EXACTLY the thing Mat was doing with his elaborate infiltration back-story not two chapters earlier. Right down to Tomas talking about a great hunting trip near this little mountain village years ago just as they were skimming. Right. Sure. It was fantastic. I think Verin's true personality was probably much closer to Mat's than either would care to admit.

3.) The Zombie story. I know some folks didn't like it, but I have an alternate explanation for its inclusion. Think of when the book came out. It just so happened that I read that chapter sitting in my local Starbucks on Saturday (Halloween) as two "zombies" were in line waiting for lattes. I wonder if they took the scene in a zombie direction knowing it'd be out right around Halloween. If so, I like it.

4.) I know I'm in the minority, but so far, I actually feel better about Gawyn than in previous books. I know he looks less commanding and more whiny, but really, I think we underestimate the degree to which Gawyn's entire world was rocked in the space of about six weeks, all while the world seems to be ending around him. I felt better about him once he admitted that he was feeling the same conflicts and emotions that anyone else would be feeling in that situation. Now, I want to like Gawyn, I do, so I hope his part in the next book is spent learning from his mistakes, rescuing Egwene from a bloodknife, being bonded by her, checking in on his sister, meeting his mother and Galad, hugging both of them, then running off to apologize to the now-saner Rand and becoming buddies with him. You know ... like a good little First Prince of the Sword. Then he and Mat and Perrin should go get drunk and talk about being Prince's to very powerful women. Quietly. Over there. Off camera. Then we can all like Gawyn again.

Overall, I feel like this book is the point where in the 8th round, Rocky lands a big shot, and the announcers start yelling, "He's cut! The Russian's cut!"

I'm really torn on whether channeling survives the last battle. I just don't know.
Greg Bloom
610. MuleHeadedLummox
@588 Isilel

Sheriam likely was such a highly ranked BA member not because of skill but because of her position in the tower as Mistress of Novices. This gave her a great deal of authority over novices and accepted, and she was probably responsible for searching for potential BA recruits among the novices and accepted.

@605 Subwoofer

I thought that some of Mat's curses were a bit overdone, but Mat was somewhat exaggerated for comedy purposes in general. But we have seen Mat use the curse "bloody ashes" before, although it was as part of a phrase, not a standalone curse, "Blood and bloody ashes."

@608 Shimrod

I'm pretty sure that in ToM we will see the meeting of Perrin and Galad. Perrin and Mat's storylines are both behind Rand and Egwene's, and there will probably be scenes for both that occur before the climax of TGS. Also, since Sanderson has seemingly abandoned Jordan's general policy that the beginning of each chapter/storyline swich takes place after the beginning of the start of the previous chapter/storyline swich, it's hard to say how much of Perrin/Mat we will see in relation to Rand and Egwene.
Ian Walker
611. Auspicium
Thinking about Min's Salidar viewing got me thinking: In tFoH Ch. 26, Min has a viewing of Carlinya (of the Salidar Six) with a raven tattoo appearing next to her head. The raven tattoo is, of course, used to mark property of the Imperial Family of Seanchan.

Was Carlinya in Tar Valon during the attack for some reason?

If not, are we not done with the White Tower/Seanchan conflict? (Obviously not, but are they so far from done that Sisters will be made property before its all over?)

Will it have something to do with Egwene's other viewing, the one of the Seanchan woman helping Eg up the cliff?

Also can anyone think of someone besides members of the Deathwatch Guard and Seekers and/or Listeners who recieve the tattoo?
Sam Mickel
612. Samadai
I think that Perrin and Mats stories are going to be fleshed out in ToM. I believe that the throw away mentions of them by Rand were just missed in the editing process when they decided to split the book.
Skip Ives
613. Skip
@ 405 Freelancer - You don't think the sword is Justice? Even after all the discussion in the First Chapter comments on it?

I'll grant you that I didn't either, but mostly because of the great sword vs. Greatsword difference.

I agree with Leigh on the sword, for her comment @194. Read it with the EOTW quote from mikauk @239. Granted the quote is "His great sword of justice", but assume the translator screwed up the declension and it was supposed to be nominative instead of genitive.
Dan Sparks
614. RedHanded
a couple of points

Graendel is definitely dead. What's his nuts had compulsion placed on him and then after Rand balefired the whole place housing Graendal the compulsion was gone. We know from Nyn taking the weave off of the boy previously that doing it that way would kill the person. Seems pretty certain that balefire undid what Graendal did as there were no effects at all, as if he was never compulsed. Yes there was no body but it seems pretty clear cut evidence since who else could put that level of compulsion on someone besides a forsaken (and I doubt Moggy was hanging out there).

Also did anyone else get a kick out of Mat coming up with the backstories for everyone? I thought it was pretty funny and then Verin just pops in and is like, oh hey it was me that was looking for you, sorry you stayed up all night working hard on your pages of script General Shakespeare! And where did Talmanes get a sense of humor?

SO I'm pretty sure the Seanchan have their prophecies screwed up. Tuon was thinking about when Rand would go blind as though he would ACTUALLY go blind but the prophecy read to me as though he was blind with ignorance and then at the top of Dragonmount was able to see (gained understanding).

Also I think that channelers could sense the True Power or some connection to the dark one around Rand as most seemed to see a dark aura around him. I'm thinking this is what scared Tuon enough to break Rand's ta'veren pull.
Tess Laird
615. thewindrose
611 Auspicium-
Carlinya has also been noted as being very ambitious(she and Beonin were portrayed as being cut from the same stone in Garth Byrnes mind.) It could be that, after a decision has been made not to collar chanallers any longer, she raises in the ranks of the Seanchen. The tattoo implies ownership, so it would seem that the Seanchen don't completely change, but I am willing to go out on a limb and say that the collaring is going to stop.

(The Raven is also a sign for the darkside, but I don't think Carlinya is BA.)
Francesco Paonessa
616. ErrantKnave
Finally finished! Read the last 300 pages last night. Oh man, oh man, oh man. Egwene's been rising up the ranks of my faves for the last couple of books, but MAN did she kick ass in this book. I was doing a happy dance for almost every chapter she was in.

You know who I was NOT happy with? Tuon. Yes, she's been raised with a Seanchan way of looking at things (duh), but it irks me no end that Mat ended up with someone who makes me *headdesk* so much. Wasn't it enough that Perrin had to settle for Faile? (Note: I think Faile improved in this book. Just a smidgen, but there it is.) When I turned a page to see a chapter called "The Death of Tuon" I figured it was too much to hope for.

Rand: I had to stop after Semirhage. I was too stunned. I also had to stop after the Graendal-balefiring, but more because I couldn't believe that was Rand's plan. The sickening thing is that he was right about Graendal's Compulsion rendering everyone there useless, but... balefiring them out of existence forever? As if they'd never existed? Yeesh. Speaking of Graendal, that brings me to...

ASMODEAN! Um, does this remove G-baby as Suspect Numero Uno in the Who-killed-Asmo debate? I know, I know, no body, so the debate will linger. But if she IS dead, I don't know how we'd get a confession of her offing Asmo. It's not like anyone else knew. Or does the Dark One know?

Back to Rand: My heart was in my throat at the Tam-Rand meeting. I teared two or three times. And then Tam used the C-word and I read in shock as Rand just about annihilated him. That was probably the most disappointing scene in the book, although I understand it. Hurin's was close, but it didn't pack the same emotional wallop as the father-son reunion we've been waiting for for 12 books.

I thought when Rand fled to Ebou Dar that he was going to submit to the Crystal Throne. I guess I still didn't believe that he would seriously consider doing the DO's job of killing everyone everywhere.

Verin: Black Ajah? There was a moment when I thought "Please, Verin, let that be a sick joke." Did I see her twist coming? Not at all. I thought she was part of the Light Brigade, and I suppose I was right, but her revelations were... well, stunning. Great job.

Nynaeve: is awesome. I think we take her strength for granted (or maybe it's just me), but she's like a younger Cadsuane, which is perfect, really. I hope Min's viewing doesn't mean the death of Lan because... dammit, the man deserves better.

The ending: Rand can laugh again. FINALLY! A hopeful ending for a change. I was so relieved. I did not think Rand was going to talk himself off that ledge. I thought it was one short step for Rand, one giant leap into death and destruction for mankind. So, I have high hopes that the next Tam-Rand summit will have a happier outcome.

Quibbles:

Mat's language. Was it just me, or did he seem a lot more flippant and off-the-cuff than he used to be? He seemed like more of a caricature of Mat at first. However, by the end of his brief appearance he seemed more like the old Mat.

Some of the language in general. I thought Brandon did a fantastic job, but there were a few word choices that seemed to stick out. I suppose the only reason I'm bringing them up is because the rest of the job was so seamless (really, BS was even better than I hoped or expected), so it made those few instances stand out even more. Of course, those might have been RJ's words I'm quibbling about. What do I know?

The editing. 750 pages or so is a lot to edit. No book is perfect when it comes to line or copy editing. Perhaps I should read the previous books now that I'm in publishing and look for those kinds of flaws (*snort* like I really have that kind of time). Anyway, I didn't really notice anything until almost halfway through the book. Then in the space of about a chapter I found more than a half-dozen mistakes. I'm talking about missed words and typos. Yikes! After that I found a few more so that by the end of the book I had around 15 or so similar errors. 15 errors in a 750 page book? I'm sure that's forgivable, but the first half was clean. What happened?

Bottom line: It's my favorite book in a long, long time. The goodies are enough to keep me sated until next year's release of whatever the next book will be called. Two books to go until the end. The Last Battle is right around the corner, and for the first time I'm feeling like Rand has a shot. Yay!
Bill Reamy
617. BillinHI
auspicium @595/597: I must have missed something: when did Faolain and company get sent to the BT? I can only come up with the 5 Reds from the WT.

chiech22 @604: The amount of time rewinding is directly proportional to the amount of balefire used. Rand didn't use nearly enough BF to restore his hand (if that's what you were alluding to).

subwoofer @605/Lannis @606: per Ideal Seek Bloody Ashes was _always_ used as Blood and Bloody Ashes. But only a small nit to pick. I'm sure if I was going back and forth between TGS and any of the other books, I would notice more differences but I thoroughly enjoyed TGS and cannot wait for the next two.
Skip Ives
618. Skip
Thoughts on the rest of the book. I'm not going to rehash what others have said, this is only where I think there is more to discuss:

Verin: Is very cool. Personally I would not consider her Black Ajah. She was a member of the Black Ajah, but she was not Black herself. Yes, it is a minor point to quibble about, but I think she would appreciate the difference.


Gawyn: Yes he is a whiny emo punk. But he was also brought up to obey women in power. If an AS tells him SS has been deposed and her followers are staging a coup, he is going to defend the Tower. Why? Because the AS can't lie, he doesn't like SS, and because he follows orders.

Bryne calls him out on his failure to think more deeply, and challenges him to be more than the weapon he was trained to be.

He should come around, but Egwene can be as stubborn as Rand. He and SS were right to rescue her, and she will not admit it out of stubbornness. She was cool for the rest of the story though.

Mat: okay he wasn't perfectly voiced, but it was a bit part, get over it. Mandevin is the only one that actually bothered me in that section though. I do hope for a better job in the next book, but it was a minor quibble.

Also, am I the only one that thinks he will put the crossbows that don't need to be put down together with the dragons to come up with repeating rifles?

I'm not sure he will do so in time for the last battle though. I imagine the cannon will have to be built and then someone needs to come up with sabots and rifling before repeating hand weaponry makes sense. I could be wrong though, smooth bore muskets are a much simpler step, they are just not faster than a crossbow.

There is more, but the 500 people before me have gotten most of it.
j p
619. sps49
sub @593-

Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal for two reasons alluded to.

One is that he feared the amount of power he could draw through it- possibly enough to damage the Patter, and definitely enough to corrupt him.

The other, which I believe reinforces the first, is his cogitation on the multiple mentions Callandor has in prophecy compared to none for the Choedan Kal. It serves as a corrolary to Min's visions and how much they can be trusted- if her viewings can be trusted until the Pattern unravels (or at least the authors' notes), then the remaining CK is only important if the Pattern does unravel, strongly implying that it was the agent of unravelling.

I also hope he gives the access key to Cadsuane without telling her that it is now useless.

EDIT: Rand might have gone to deal with Taim and the Black Tower before breaking his Choedan Kal. Oh, well.
Leslie Annis
620. Lannis
BillinHI @ 617: Yes, I noticed the "Bloody Ashes" thing, but there're other curses that were new... not completely off the wall for Randland ("Burn it all" comes to mind, or "Light's sakes!"), but they stuck out and I don't recall exactly what the others were... sometimes I feel I need to read with a pen and paper at hand... or my laptop on... :/

Overall, though, you're right, a small nit to pick. I'm decidedly in the "Sanderson did great!" camp. Anticipating the next installment! :)
Skip Ives
621. Skip
Thoughts on Rand:

He is the main character and it was nice to see him treated as such again. No, I didn't like the things he did and went through, but it was all in character.

I found myself reading him much like the last third of "Catch 22". I couldn't stop reading, but it made me almost physically ill to continue watching the useless pain. I made the comparison because like "Catch 22" the realization and rebirth of hope allowed by the ending makes the painful character development worth it.

I'm not comparing TWoT to Catch 22, just explaining why I think the amount of time spent with Rand in the book was necessary to keep us caring about him and to give us a reason to continue keep reading. Otherwise, the book becomes an action movie, and the book would fail to succeed as a novel.

The tower action helps leaven the otherwise heavy Rand POVs, and it is done well. Egwene finally gets the whole tower and many plotlines are ended (thankfully). I'll post separately on the rest of the book.
Bob Smith
622. chiech22
@ 617 BillinHI

Nope - I meant choking Min, grabbing the TP and becoming shadowed, going off the deep end, ect ... stuff that happened minutes before. We see time and time again several minutes being 'reversed' - Matt & the Darkhound saliva, battle w/ Rahvin, why not now?!?!
Eric Hughes
623. CireNaes
Some Comments on Balefire,

The things that are firmly established as to how Balefire functions that have been stated by others, but why not again since very few read the whole thread anyway:

1) It does not eliminate the rebirth of the individual who gets zapped. Might jack up when they are supposed to be reborn, but besides that, they will live again at some point or another.

2) It does eliminate the DIRECT actions of the individual who gets zapped. How far back is determined by the strength of the beam. This is why Min still has bruises on her neck; Rand did that through the indirect action of Semi and since he was involved the pattern does not have to correct that paradox. Remember that the pattern only needs to correct the paradox of DIRECT ACTION. It is taking the path of least resistance just like electricity. If it can explain anything with another person's or object's indirect actions then it will default to those.

Speculative Side Note: I suppose you could imagine everything having a thread attached to it and the more that thread interacts with other threads directly the more the pattern has to adjust in order to make up for how far back the thread was rewound. This is why it is so hard on the pattern when more and more people are balefired in one go (arguably even more hard on the pattern than when one important person is balefired, even with an extremely strong beam i.e. Rahvin. Although a taveren would probably be an exception to this rule due to how many threads that are naturally pulled/attached to them). This could also be why when you balefire a large building full of people that is well trafficked it really jacks things up. This whole bit is my rough analogy, it has not been affirmed by other posters who have had direct conversations with RJ on the topic (that I have been able to find anyway).

Some interesting things that have been raised in other forums (dragonmount) have been:
What causes balefire to stop or keep going when it hits an object?

My analogy with the threads might explain that. The more complicated, direct action(s) that an object or person is involved with the more of the balefire is used up to eliminate the direct action(s). So the balefire would slice through a simple pillar in a building since it would not use up much of the 'juice' to 'back that thread up' so to speak. But when it hits a person it has the potential to be used up much more quickly and hence, would stop moving through an object. I can't recall when Rahvin was killed if the beam kept going when it hit him, which could discredit some of my theory. No, I am not too lazy to look it up. My older paper back editions (books 1-4) fell apart beyond even a rubber band fix all the way back in 6th grade and I haven't felt the need to replace them since most libraries have copies on hand if I ever want to reread the series again.

Another interesting thing that I am curious about would be whether the Forsaken or Dark Friends who have been balefired (or killed otherwise and the D.O. has neither the desire or the resources available to recycle them) will have another chance to be good or bad, or whether the D.O. still has claim on that soul even after they've gone through a regular respin into the pattern and their memory is wiped.

In other words, does the D.O. lose the claim on the soul if It does not recycle the soul? This whole world is built on the concept of reincarnation (albeit in a limited sense in that you can't become a horse in a later life) so this could be possible. I have no idea what to do with Kari al'Thor so don't even ask. That's a curve ball that I've never understood outside of the D.O. tricking Rand or she was a Dark Friend, both of which are a little far fetched.
Eric Hughes
624. CireNaes
Overall, I thought the book was well done (and no, I'm not going to brag about how fast I read it, which reminds me of when all the guys on the forum where bragging about their height and weight in previous posts 3 books ago). The events could have been more evenly paced, (more movement in the first 250 pages and a little less movement in the last half of the book), but overall it was nice to have some resolution to a series I have enjoyed for the past 14 years. I am grateful for that and we are all indebted to Mrs. Rigney for giving us this unexpected gift and picking someone who would do their utmost to write it well.
Leigh Butler
625. leighdb
cps2195 @ 568:

What's the deal with a NEED search brining Egwene to a Tinker caravan?

My theory is, someone needs to find the Song in order to heal the land. The general consensus is that it'll be Perrin, because of Min's viewing about trees flowering around him, but there's a certain symmetry in Egwene helping him figure it out, since they first encountered the Tinkers together waaaay back in TEOTW.

subwoofer @593:

Just to throw something else out there- why is Rand so queasy when tapping the power? He did cleanse Sadin, so that slick, greasy feeling should be gone.

The general theory is that it has something to do with his banging One Power flows with Moridin's True Power flows in Shadar Logoth in ACOS. In other words, crossing the streams is Bad.

For Eggy- that white rod thingy came out of nowhere.

Not really - it was the rod Siuan used in TDR to Heal Mat from dagger-taint, and all three of the Supergirls were there to witness it.

blocksmith @ 599:

(Re: Tuon)How could she resist the T'averen pull that had affected so many others unless she was T'averen also?

Egwene did the same thing, and Jordan is on record as saying she is not ta'veren. You can resist ta'veren effects if your will is strong enough.

Lannis @603:

Sheriam's "halo/blaze of glory" anyone?!

Yeah--the confessions weren't enough for me to justify Min's viewing... perhaps Sheriam'll be kick ass as a double-crossing Dreadlord in the Last Battle? Hmm...


Um, Sheriam was beheaded. She's not only merely dead, she's really most sincerely dead.

(That's what I was talking about with the viewing fulfillment possibly being cheap, because if you re-read the scene it's clear that the "golden glow" and the "silver light" was the sun breaking through the clouds and glinting off the axe as Sheriam is beheaded.)
Wilson Grooms
627. Silvertip
leighdb@625 re "crossing the streams is Bad"

Jordan couldn't have done that on purpose, could he?

Nah, he couldn't have.

Could he?
Leigh Butler
628. leighdb
Hey guys,

Don't forget, Brandon and Harriet are both coming to NYC on the signing tour. They'll be at the Barnes & Noble in Union Square Monday November 9th, a week from today.

If you're in the area I'd love to see some commenters come by and say hi.
Wilson Grooms
629. cps2195
one of the things about these book signings a week or more after the books release is a large percentage of attendees have probably finished the book but it would be rude to ask Brandon certain questions (definitive answer on the whole Lews Therin thing) because you might spoil it for someone who hasn't read it yet.
Darth Agilus
630. darth.agilus
@268 sps49

I believe it was Silk to Belgarath. Belgarath was not pleased

@587 brigit

I see your Dumbledore and raise you a Gandalf in the Mines of Moria.
john massey
631. subwoofer
@ MuleHeadedLummox - Thanks for cussin' at me;) But see- Blood and bloody ashes! Yeah, that sounds right, it feels right. Bloody ashes... nope, just something about it. But that's a minor hang up of mine. All is well, listening to Bob.

Mat on the whole seemed a bit off though. Not quite dirt baggish, the luck thing also seemed sideways. The general desciption is a rumpled, wine stained, well dressed lord that looks like he spent all night in a tavern. Not to mention the roguish grin and constant flirting with the ladies. Married life doesn't agree with him. Almost felt a moment of relief for "the Death of Tuon"- then I read the chapter.

@sps49- have you ever been mistaken for WD40? Heh, I kid- please, no rotten fruit throwing. Anyways, yes, I did get the prophecy bit related to Min. Also, LTT's thoughts about the division of the AS in AoL, some built the big statues to deal with the DO, some went with LTT and tainted Saidin forever. This could of been different. First off, give it to somebody you kinda trust( I know Rand has trust issues right now) and tell them to keep it safe(7:26). Kinda like a "break glass in case of emergency" thing. Secondly, whoop some but and then cast it away- like settling the Black Tower, giving the Seanchan the beating of a lifetime, going to Shayol Ghul and locking the DO back in his room... I dunno, to me, it's like tossing away a winning lottery ticket because you didn't earn the money honestly. meh.

@Leigh- yay! You are real! I figured you were like Santa, a myth made up by R.Fife to keep the rest of us going with his Rickrolling... Mat must of been really bunged up for several Sisters to use that much Power on him. I still feel that it came pretty easy to her, after soooo long not being able to channel, then pwang, here's the Tower's most powerful Sa'angreal, have at 'er.

And about crossing the streams... I remember, this one time, in band camp... ah, I kid.

Wish I was in your end of the universe. Up north here, the economy is fine, mostly because we barter in beaver pelts and the igloos can't have central heating. Am still in a New York state of mind... Le sigh.

Woof™.
T C
632. Freelancer
Skip@613
The quote is not "his great sword of justice". It is "his great sword Justice". The interesting thing is, if Justice is a greatsword by type, then Rand couldn't wield it at all.
john massey
633. subwoofer
@Free, maybe the sword is not just good, it's GRREAT!- settle down Tony:P

Woof™.
James Zema
634. Balthanon
I enjoyed the book as well, and I'm much more comfortable now with my expectations for the final two books.

For myself, Semirage's breaking was probably the most unrealistic portion for me-- the concept of reducing her in the eyes of the others was fine, but I just didn't really see her breaking that easily afterwards. While being punished like a child is definitely demeaning, it seems like it should have taken more and was rushed.

Oddly enough, one of my favorite scenes was actually the discussion between an integrated Rand/Lews Therin and Moridin/Elan Morin-- I honestly think it was a view of both of them without their various psychosis and it was refreshing. Elan Morin was simply weary and without his megalomania really didn't care if he was giving away the balefire issue-- plus, Rand might well have figured it out on his own. I honestly don't think there were any deep seated plans to destabilize the Pattern from him at that point (though when he later gains access to the True Power, I think that is definitely intended to break him.)

I did find Mat's stories amusing as well, it seems as if his memories were blending even further and given that he has at a minimum written songs in past lives it seems possible that he could have been feeling creative. Still a bit off kilter, but not horribly so for myself.

The unveiling of Sheriam struck me as somewhat odd actually-- where she asked about how Egwene found out and how Verin betrayed her oaths, I almost have to think someone was somehow listening in. It didn't really strike me as general curiosity. I've been waiting for Egwene to ask Siuan if Sheriam ever reported the gray man's death for 10 novels now though.

For Elaida, I actually saw more of Padan Fain's work in her continuing downward spiral than I do Mesaana or anyone else actually.

The Choedan Kal being destroyed was a definite moment of dissappointment intermingled with the general triumph of the moment. Rand is (presumably) sane again and could be considered worthy of wielding that kind of power and he goes and destroys it. I know power is supposed to corrupt, but as has been pointed out, he was already using it as a balance to prevent a more corrupting influence. I suppose it does eliminate the rather lackluster war in the Border Lands consisting of Rand stepping out of a gateway and turning the Blight into a sheet of glass though. :)

@95. Texas Hovda
OK.. I finished last night and will re-read again tonight. Somewhat confused regarding LTT finally shutting up. How was that accomplished by simply destroying the terangreal / sa angreal? Perhaps the re-read will clear it up.

-- I think the reintegration is at least partially due to the self-awareness that the One Power grants while holding it to tell the truth (destroying the Choedan Kal didn't have anything to do with it directly). Rand was holding more of the Power at that point then has likely been held at any other point in time (save perhaps similar moments in previous turnings of the Wheel), that alone probably helped to finalize the process started by Tam. What I'm more interested in is whether he will recall any of the thousands of lives he saw while holding the One Power in that moment.

I was almost anticipating a need to have Graendal reformed in order for Rand and Lews Therin to merge. I always thought it might be feasible that she was turned forcibly to the shadow given the abrupt reversal of her personality during the Age of Legends and that severing her ties to the Dark One could potentially reverse that. That was the most dissappointing part of her death for me, since it would have been interesting to have another Age of Legends channeler on the side of the Light. We might still get to see whether that concept works if Pevara is turned forcibly though.

@112. schrodinger
Gawyn continues to irritate me. His decision making leaves a lot to be desired, and he's so childish it's not funny.

-- One of the things that I noticed in the book which amused me is that they directly referenced Gawyn not being terribly intelligent with the references to his never having been good at stones. Being a good stones player appears to be almost directly correlated with intelligence in the Wheel of Time. :)


@194. leighdb
See, the thing I assumed about Verin's Tale of Ta'veren Pull Woe was that it was lies from start to finish.

-- Honestly, I don't think that's the case here. I don't see how Verin would have possibly known that Matt would be in the area and we've seen examples of ta'veren tugging on normal people from miles away (specifically Mat tugging on normal people) with Talmanes. I think Mat honestly pulled Verin, not only because he needed someone to travel, but also because he needed her letter and the Pattern needed to force Verin's timing on the Black Ajah reveal so it waited until Egwene was released to become a novice again.

At this point, I suspect that Mat is actually a stronger ta'veren than Perrin as well because he has been fighting his fate less (though complaining about it more), though that's just a gut feeling.


@253. Dholton
I suspect that the Seanchan that is going to help Egwene is going to be one of the Assassins or whatever they're called. There are still four unaccounted for after all.

-- Given the deliberate mention of the sword that Leilwin was carrying, she seems the obvious candidate for the Seanchan that is going to save Egwene. That might be intentionally misleading though.


@321. woody_145
I think the scene with Rand and Moridin was one of the most enlightening. It sounded almost as if Moridin aka ishy was second guessing his devotion to the DO. Or maybe he was just pissed that Rand was becoming the "betrayer of hope", where would that leave him?

-- I think it was more akin to both of their psychological problems being alleviated for some reason due to the dream state.


@513. UK Chris
Leigh, I was really surprised at what was (or wasn't) in your *headdesk* moments. I thought for sure Rand's use of Compulsion on Tuon was going to be first on the list. When I read that, I thought, "Yeah, this is what she meant!"

-- I'm fairly sure that wasn't Compulsion-- that was simply him focusing his ta'veren abilties upon her and the Pattern trying to force her into line (albeit a touch early). The same thing happens to Egwene in a previous book and she's able to resist it. Rand does actually seem to be learning how to bend the Pattern to his will, rather than vice versa in some cases. Like Cadsuane, I'm not entirely sure he couldn't kill someone just by thinking about it now.

@513. UK Chris
For Eggy- that white rod thingy came out of nowhere. And it was very convenient that the store room for major angreal was unguarded and everything was so easy to find.

-- We've seen before that the room the ter'angreal and sa'angreal are stored in isn't terribly well protected when Fain broke in and stole the dagger. The reason Egwene was even able to recognize the rod was because she was there when it was used to heal Mat.
Leslie Annis
635. Lannis
Leigh @ 625: re: Sheriam. Oh, I knew she was dead, I'm just wondering if the Dark One'll pull a handy dandy do-over and let some of the Black Ajah loose again as Dreadlords... though really, I can't see Sheriam really doing anything to bring her back to the good side after that [sigh] what a waste...

I will go back and read the passage, though, both the original viewing and the beheading for that shiny glint...

So wish I was in NY right now...! You guys get all the fun!

Sub: I got some fancy wooden beads, but no beaver pelts for wampum... wanna trade?
Arvid
636. SoneA
@625
"The general theory is that it has something to do with his banging One Power flows with Moridin's True Power flows in Shadar Logoth in ACOS. In other words, crossing the streams is Bad."

I dont quite understand :P You mean the it has something to do with Rand and Moridins weaves "banging" in Shadow Logoth?

@626 True´. Would be cool to get an answer on that :P
Wilson Grooms
637. little minion
After reading birgit@587:

SEMIRHAGE WAS SET UP!

I think the DO set up Semi -- her own thoughts in an earlier book foreshadow this event. It may have been in LoC, when she's torturing Cabriana's Warder and she's thinking about Shaidar Haran, and how the Forsaken are pieces on a board that can be sacrificed, or something to that effect.

(And then she fails at parallel processing -- Warder dies from overstimulation.)

Clearly, the DO wanted Rand to be desperate enough to use the TP.
Skip Ives
638. Skip
@628 leighdb - I'm planning on being at the signing. I've got books 4-11 signed, so I can't miss one.

@632 Freelancer - sorry, there are two almost identical quotes there. In TEotW Prologue, the fourth age quote about Rand was "Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. " In TGH Ch47 Rand saw Hawkwing "his great sword Justice at his side".

My comment about "justice" being a name versus a modifier applies to the first quote. The second quote was cited often in the first chapter thread to differentiate it from a greatsword. A greatsword is a large two handed weapon, a great sword is a legendary sword. ( I know freelancer knows this, it is here for anyone that doesn't.)

That last bit is rather thin, but add it to Rand's thoughts that the sword reminds him of Falme, and I think it makes it to "more likely than not". In my mind anyway, YMMV.
john massey
639. subwoofer
@Lannis- score! You got a deal, eh? No worries, let them have all the fun, State side. We'll just sit up here and drink our Canada beer and nibble on some poutine ;)

@Balthanon- I will ponder the Verin thing. Mat was being elusive, but the Band is a large group of people moving around. It's not like they can pussy foot through the country side without notice, although the Seanchan seem to be stumped, even with their raken. Maybe it is a too random occurrence for Verin to pop up, maybe Verin really is that good. She did stump the BA and the DO for 70 years, c'mon, I think Verin has it in her.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
640. stargazer
leighdb @628:

The way I read that earlier speculation about Sheriam, it was contingent on her first being reincarnated by the DO, then doing something badass to earn redemption from the light.

Personally I suspect we're not going to see too many of the beheaded BA back on stage, due to a lack of convenient bodies at Thakandar these days. But it's not inconceivable that we might see a few of the higher placed dark folks return. (And along those lines, Sammael and Osan'gar in particular seem ripe for reincarnation. Though maybe the DO will be less inclined to give Osan'gar a third chance...)
James Zema
642. Balthanon
@625. leighdb
My theory is, someone needs to find the Song in order to heal the land. The general consensus is that it'll be Perrin, because of Min's viewing about trees flowering around him, but there's a certain symmetry in Egwene helping him figure it out, since they first encountered the Tinkers together waaaay back in TEOTW.

It would be interesting if Perrin and Egwene finally met honestly in Tel'aran'rhiod so she could give him some training as part of this. The forces of Light are going to be a bit low on individuals walking the dream after the loss of all the dream ter'angreal. (Though admittedly, that is likely to leave them safer rather than less.)

I would be interested in seeing Egwene leave some traps in Tel'aran'rhiod around her correspondence as well. Since Elayne, Nynaeve, and her were apparently communicating by leaving tied off weaves in earlier novels that could be a nasty surprise for any Black Ajah wandering by to find out what's happening in the White Tower.

@639. subwoofer

I could see it going either way with Verin, but I think there's definitely precedent for Mat being strong enough to manage pulling her. (Of course, Verin, having made a study of ta'veren also has enough knowledge to lie convincingly.) I could see the pull having prompted the letters in the first place though, if she actually was planning to go to the White Tower first.
R B
643. MasterAlThor
I can't do it. I cannot read all the post and keep in mind all that I wish to respond to. So I won't.

What I will do is give you(fifth) my thoughts on the book. Via Clint Eastwood.

Ah ha ha ahhhhhhhh
Wa wa waaaaaa

The Good.
Verin was MOA. Who wants to argue about it? Her plan of 70 yrs pays off and she figured out how to drop dime on the Dark One. To bad she had to die.

Egwene. I am not her biggest fan. She has some of the same character flaws that Nynaeve has and it bugs me to no end, but all that said...damn. Someone said compentency porn. Yep that about says it. To quote Leigh "girl gets shit done".

Tam Al'Thor. You knew that he was bad ass. But did you know he serves up humble pie to Aes Sadai?

The Bad.
Tuon. You know you den f'd up right?

Mat. I like Mat. I have issues with some of his character traits, but I like him. This was not really Mat for me. The beginning was very hard to read. Thank goodness for Talmanes. Let's just hope that he is not Demandred.

Perrin. I don't like emo characters. I am glad that he is starting to realize that he has consequences for his actions over the last few books.

The Ugly.
Nynaeve. What happend to all that character growth? Where did it go? She went back to the men are not intelligent enough to walk across the street without a woman, do things my way or you'll get thumped type of Nynaeve that I love to hate. IMO. She needs someone to show her how to grow up.

Egwene. Only reason she is here also is because of her firm belief that she needs to control Rand. Ok it's time to kick the hornets nest. Women a question to you. If a man said that they wanted to control you, guide you, show you the right way to do it even if they themselves didn't kknow how, how offended would you be?

Cadsuane. Humble pie taste good doesn't it? You got served by someone who doesn't have a lick of real power.

There were a few things in various chapters that Leigh and others pointed out that were just...forced? Don't know if that is the word I was looking for. The things just didn't fit well.

All in all the book was worth the wait. I enjoyed it very much.
Matthew Smith
644. blocksmith
Leigh@628

I'm sure alot of us commenters/fans wish we could be at the NYC signing...the one closest to me is Brandon only, but I am still planning on going.

Relative to the Tuon/Rand interaction, thank you for the point of "strong will" being able to resist T'averen pull. When I read the section, it seemed as though she was so close to pulling the trigger and then SomeThing prevented her from doing so...something greater than just will.

However, you have demonstrated your WOT schwartz as being much greater than mine, so I buy no T'averen for Tuon.

little minion@637

That was immediate reaction also...why free Semirhage with specific direction "to try again"? Why to force Rand into a position to use the True Power (sorry...started typing TP and did not look right with the use statement)and further his evolution as a tool of the DO, of course! That said, while the scene was unfolding, I thought for sure Rand was going to actually kill Min...had my heart in my throat. I will probably regret saying this, but I was very happy with him finding a way out, even if it meant using the True Power.
F Shelley
645. FSS
I don't think the BA will be transmigrated to new bodies. RJ said at one time the reason the Forsaken were being recycled was because the DO didn't think much of this Age's Aes Sedai. I think he thinks Taim's darkfriend Asha'man are good enough for his purposes.

Also - if the real battle is the one in Rand's soul, he really doesn't need them...
Wilson Grooms
646. yebeme
I wonder, can the Horn of Valere only be sounded for battle? What would happen if Mat, certified Prince of the Ravens and Hornsounder extraordinaire, were to call the Heroes from beyond so that Hawkwing could meet Tuon? Is that even in the realm of possibility?
Leigh Butler
647. leighdb
Balthanon @ 634:

Enh. I mean, you could be right, but the whole thing stretched credulity even before the revelation about Verin at the end of the book. I mean, that was too convenient even for ta'veren, which is saying something.

I originally thought it was just slightly shoddy plotting, but when we found out Verin was Black(ish), I just assumed she lied through her teeth (or at least greatly exaggerated the situation).

Lannis @ 635 and stargazer @ 640:

Well, okay, I guess, but Sheriam totally doesn't deserve reincarnation. In retrospect she was even lamer at Evilling than Delana - at least Delana didn't get caught.

I'm pretty sure Sheriam is gone pecan.
Darth Agilus
648. darth.agilus
Leigh great review!

However, for you and all the other's unhappy with Rand's arc in this book, I found Rand’s progress captivating and the “talking” himself down was perfection. Some of you might not get this but I think the psychological progression to the end was perfect. I bet if you talk to a psychologist, this process was a clinical example of how a victim of chronic abuse deals with their emotions. First there is the attempt to turn off emotions – Rand becoming “hard”. But in reality this is just ignoring emotions day to day leaving them prone to overreactions when hit with a particularly strong emotion. Especially when dealing with a trigger, Rand’s triggers obviously being in a box or being controlled. Thus you get the explosions at Cadsuane, Nynaeve, and of course finally Tam. Then you get to the critical moment, where the victim struggles with a decision to do something irrevocable and totally against their previous moral leanings – suicide, violence, perpetuating abuse. This fight would be completely internal and involve the person doing the questioning, raging, and searching for answers that Rand does here – looking to land solidly on following through with the negative decision or turning from this path. Powerful stuff.
Patrick Huff
649. pattack
I suspect that the Seanchan army is going to suffer heavy casualties from trolloc raids and Mrydraals and I can forsee a time when they say enough is enough. We can't handle these dark forces. I'm assuming their is a waygate near Ebou Dar, but I don't recall hearing of one being guarded or near a stedding. Any help here?

I don't think they would have been introduced to them in the beginning of TGS as a one time skirmish. This is what I think will lead to another meeting with either the Dragon, Mat, Perrin or possibly a combo of all three.


Just a guess guys and gals, I like to do that now and then.
Wilson Grooms
650. Tabernerus
leighdb @ 647:

I think the clincher for me that Verin was feeding Mat a pack of lies as far as how she got there was that her story read just like the one he was cooking up for the Band just before the meeting.

Tomas' old hunting trip that just happened to be near here was like the Redarm's crazy aged aunt.

When she descried the careworn eyes of the innkeeper's wife who lost her ring in that very room, I just about lost it.

Incidentally, speaking of poor Tomas, where the heck is Tomas?? Did I miss that somehow? Verin died. Isn't there a bat-shit crazy ex-Darkfriend Warder wandering around the Tower right now looking for a fight?
Kurt Lorey
651. Shimrod
Yeah. I'm really looking forward to Fortunoa finding out that Mat is the Hornsounder.

Oh yeah.
Darth Agilus
652. darth.agilus
@650 Tabernerus

I believe Verin says Tomas went to spend his final hours with family.
R B
653. MasterAlThor
Everytime I see that name....Fortunoa. I keep thinking Bib Fortuna.

Ha ha ha
R B
654. MasterAlThor
Leigh,

Does the db at the end of your handle mean Da Bomb?

Just askin.

Thank you for the recap and the rereads. I can't wait until you get it started up again.
Sam Mickel
655. Samadai
Re: Verin and the dream ring she gave Egwene,

I see many people here are thinking that Verin Gave her the ring to help out team light. Lets not forget that the very first person Egwene ran into is Lanfear. I think Verin gave it to her on orders from Lanfear and no one else new about it because nobody was in on Lanfears plans.
Ian Walker
656. Auspicium
@ 615 thewindrose: Good point. I never considered that it could occur AFTER the Last Battle.

@ 617 BillinHI: Yes you missed something, though it's not your fault since it was glossed over even more than the Galad/Morgase reunion. When Egwene is in the Hall just before she initiates the BA PURGE she comments on there being only 12 Sitters as each Ajah sent a Sitter each for a BT delegation. Later when Egwene is about to start the siege she thinks about the silence from the Black Tower and how people who have sworn fealty to her (Myrelle, Nisao, Faolain, and Theodrin) were in the delegation. She wonders if there was foul play, as previously other sisters refused to acknowledge them as Aes Sedai, yet they were chosen for this delegation.

Phew, that was a mouthful.
Roger Powell
657. forkroot
Helen@515
I agree, but please remember the discussion back on the re-read threads where we learnt everyone's first language wasn't English. Even though the dodgy writing really grates sometimes, it's a damn sight better than my writing of any foreign language so I put up with it.
Absolutely agree WRT non-native English speakers. I did mention that in one part of my post. Actually there are some posters on this site who do not have English as their first language who put those of us who do to shame.
That said, how do you get firefox to underline spelling errors?
To be honest, I'd never thought much about it - it just seems to do it automatically when I generate a post. Googling the subject shows that it can be turned on/off or even extended.

Freelancer@405
The scholars dug up the sword in Arad Doman. The male Choeden Kal is in Cairhien. Just because it was the only statue where we had previously "seen" work being done, doesn't mean there isn't other archeological activities going on in the Westlands.

The sword isn't Justice.

Not sure how the points connect. Justice would not have been buried with the CK, as the CK dates from the Age of Legends and Artur Hawkwing came along much later. Maybe you were just making the second statement alone, in which case I'm interested in your reasoning.

Freelancer(again)@508
subwoofer

Looks like forkroot@502 is poking you with a sharp stick there.
Oh no! You trying to get me in trouble with the Woof™-man? Oh-oh... you did:
Meh. I know better than to drink forkroot;)
Subwoofer - For the record, I love you man. I'll flip you for number 1000 (we're heading there!) OK? Meanwhile, let's do snickerdoodles at the bunker.

johntheirishmongol@524
I hope destroying the Chodan Kal takes care of the Moridin connection. I thought that was what the light on top of dragonmount indicated.
I don't see how it would do it. Seems to me that although Rand has shaken off some of his internal darkness and reintegrated his reborn memories, he is still going to have to deal with the Moridin link and the consequences of channeling the TP. No "get out of jail free" card on that one IMO. We'll see.

I'm also curious about this whole bit of wanting to hurl when seizing saidan. We know the cleansing didn't help ... I wonder what will?

Aye Aye Sedai@567
I'm guessing that the poison that Sorilea gave Verin might have been too fast acting. Verin would want something guaranteed to kill herself in just a little bit less than an hour but that would still leave her lucid for a fair amount of that hour.
Sam Mickel
658. Samadai
What do you think of the chances are of the Red Sitter Duhara(who is in caemlyn) learning about the sisters Elayne is holding and trying to free them?

edit. Of course now knowing she is Black Ajah
Wilson Grooms
659. Chriscot
Leigh @ 647 re: Verin and the Terrible Tug of Ta'veren. I'm reminded of Thom's description of the effects of Ta'veren when he explains it to Tuon(in Knife of Dreams). Thom tells her that being around ta'veren is interesting, and that Mat has a tendency to find what he needs. I think it's right after this that they stumble across the Band.
Cf. how many coincedental alliances Perrin makes that helps him put together just the right alliance to take down the Shaido.

Finally, note that all three of the boys feel the ta'veren tug from across hundreds/thousands of miles, so it's not as if range is an issue.

Given all that, it's not so strange that Mat would find what he needs. Now that he's married to Tuon, sent her back where she belongs, and is now needed elsewhere, the Pattern sends him somebody who can Travel so he can stop plodding around in the middle of nowhere. The Pattern needs him in Caemlyn to get the foundries working on Dragons, meet up with Elayne, and have somebody gate him and Thom (and Noal) to the Tower of Ghenjei and back. There's no time to travel there conventionally before the Last Battle.

I think Verin's letter will reveal something about Moiraine and the Snakes and Foxes.

Actually, I've no idea, but that would be a convenient info dump.

Re: Tuon resisting Rand's pull, I've a theory. Even though I regard it as settled that a strong will is "all" that's needed to resist, Rand's likely as strong as a taveren can possibly be, and the alliance with the Seanchan is needed. But Rand's trying to force things too soon. However he picked up this "I exert my will and ask people if they believe I can kill them" effect, he's trying to force the Pattern to his will, and that's backward. The Pattern spins out ta'veren to force threads, even the ta'veren's own, into the proper shape; the ta'veren doesn't get to pick the shape.

Rand wants the alliance now; but the Pattern needs the Seanchan to attack the White Tower first. The attack clears Elaida out of the way and opens the path to reintegration, and *that's* desperately needed.

Needed for our sake, to wind down that plot, as well as for the sake of the Last Battle.

The attack also gives the Seanchan Traveling, or soon will. That's troubling both in the immediate and in the post-Last Battle long-term. But for the Last Battle....Well, even with Windfinders, Kin, and Wise Ones added to the Aes Sedai, maybe as many as half of your female channelers (and all the ones really trained in combat) are going to be Seanchan (we hope). So you really need 'em to be able to Travel.

Which means the Pattern needed Tuon *not* to make an agreement with Rand, b/c she'd not have attacked the White Tower afterwards. In fact, Rand's scariness prompts her into launching the attack then, which happens precisely at the right time. Talk about tight timing - immediately after Egwene's released from the cells and talks to Verin. Imagine if the attack came sooner, Egwene would've been trapped and had no access to novices to link with! Imagine if it came later - for the sake of the Tower, if the Seanchan attack hadn't come then, would Egwene or the BAHunters have gone to Elaida with Verin's names? That would have let Elaida take credit for unmasking the Black, and would have been a huge disaster.

So Rand and Tuon's meeting sparked a pivotal event and made it happen at just the right time.
Skip Ives
660. Skip
@657 forkroot - I wonder if the nausea is caused from touching the One Power by a person who has the Saa from touching the True Power too long. So the feeling would be caused by Rand's attachment to Mord/Ishy. The timing is pretty close, but I'm not sure.

It would explain why Mord/Ish uses the TP almost exclusively and why removing the taint did nothing to stop the problem.

Also, put me firmly in the group that thinks that Rand's ability to use TP will be critical to heal the Bore. Between the power itself manifesting and LTT's thoughts about how anything touching the DO will be tainted, I can't think of a way to otherwise seal the Bore.

The TP would act like the gauze pad in a band-aid; it would absorb all the taint and leave the OP patch clean so that the fabric of the age lace would be healed. Like Herid Fel said to Rand, at some point the pattern has to be whole to drill the bore into when the Age of Legends returns.

[/crazy theory]
Wilson Grooms
661. RobC
I hate to say it, but I think the balefiring of Grendael's compound was completely justified. I can't think of another way he could have handled that situation and known for sure that she:

A.) Didn't escape
B.) Wouldn't have just been spun back out by the Lord of the Grave.(Osan'gar, Aran'gar)

It also eliminated the nasty problem of the whole compound full of mush brained people that would have essentially had a death sentence if compulsion were used on them to the extent that they had been indicating in the book up to that point. How else could they be dealt with humanely?
Wilson Grooms
662. Chriscot
Oh, re: Egwene's need walk and why she ended up with the Tinkers...I thought it was pretty clear in the text that what Egwene needed was to be reminded of ordinary people and real life, to remember (as Tam reminded Rand) why she was fighting. The Tinker wagon reminded her of time when she was just a normal person, and people she had known, Raen and Ila and the rest, and helped to ground her for the next stage in her fight. IMO.

Skip @660: re Rand's dizziness, it seems to affect Moridin as well, which may indeed account for Mor's reliance on the TP. Good catch there...I just figured he was crazy, and maybe so, but...

As for the cause of the dizziness, I assume that Rand and Moridin are strong enough in the power that their balefire should have wiped each other from existence...that crossing the stream meant each balefire was trying to wipe the other stream retroactively from existence, from before the point it was even fired. The weird time paradox would therefore create the link and the nausea. Somehow. Maybe.
Matthew Smith
663. blocksmith
Chriscot@659

So what you are saying is...I could be a little right?

If I understand correctly, you are implying that perhaps the pattern was what twisted/prompted Tuon's backbone to resist the T'averen pull and not enter a truce with Rand, thus allowing the attack on the White Tower to occur, thus aiding Eg in escape/secure of the WT, and thus ultimately forcing Tuon back to the negotiating table.

I like it...Tuon not T'averen but other forces at work helping her resist the pull.
Julian Augustus
664. Alisonwonderland
pattack@555
He is pretty sure that Logain will be the one to confront Taim and his band of Asha'man. I'm not so sure of this theory...

This is because of Egwene's Dream in LoC. She sees Logain step over the body of Rand to mount the stone Taim uses to address the Ashaman. On closer inspection, the body is not really Rand, but a fake, something like a papier maché Rand.

The interpretation of this Dream is straightforward: Logain is going to kill a fake Rand... which leads to a false Rand ... which leads to a False Dragon. Who is the only False Dragon around? There you have it.
Wilson Grooms
665. Lily of the Valley
I'm re-reading it now, and I have to ask; Did anyone else notice the use of "Burn it" in place of "Blood and ashes"?

New best curse word: "What in the Dark One's blistered backside"

Also: regarding the whole "humanity has to be burned out at one point". I'm not entirely sure. I seem to recall, somewhere, where Egwene was hovering in that In Between place that's black and full of dream-stars, how she identifies some of them as the dreams of people who live in worlds where the One Power doesn't exist, or at least where people can't channel it. I could be completely misremembering, but I will diligently search Shadow Rising and Fires of Heaven until I am either positive of this or disprove myself. :)
Wilson Grooms
666. Chriscot
RobC@661 - how about the fact that Rand couldn't be sure using what that much power for that much balefire and wiping out that many threads would do to the already ridiculously over-stretched Pattern?

I agree, maybe, reluctantly, that it can be justified morally, if you think of those people as mindless automatons who can't be saved. But is taking out Graendal worth the risk of destroying all existence?

Put me in the camp that a TP/Saidin/Saidar linkage will *not* be the way to seal up the DO. The True Power is the Dark One, pure distilled evil...nothing could can come of it.

Um, except saving Min's life. So there.

Huh?

Speaking of the DO, I may be poster 666...yikes!

Minor uh-oh moment - did anybody notice Mat's still drawn to the Shadar Logoth dagger? Is that the first time we've heard that since he was originally Healed?

To those who thought Egwene's sa'angreal was out of left field - nah, she had seen it before, and she'd talked with Siuan about where to find the *greal and what the place looked like. Also, the guarding wasn't so inadequate - the room was warded. Either Traveling into the room bypassed wards on the doors, or the chaos of the Seanchan attack let her get away with it and she might have been detected otherwise.

I also like that it was Adelorna who identified the other angreal for Egwene. Egwene asks how familiar she is with the storeroom, and Adelorna says "very." I'll say! Adelorna was given penance by Alviarin via Elaida, way back when, in order to infuriate the Greens and widen division between the Ajahs. The penance was for taking and keeping an angreal without permission! Hah!

I approve of Adelorna's shame re: "the Battle Ajah." I've often wondered about the Greens assertion that they "stand ready." How about "stand around for 3000 years instead of being posted to the Borderlands and helping prevent raids out of the Blight which apparently have been common for centuries?" Would be nice if more than a handful had actual combat experience.

Disappointed that the Ajah head conspiracy is revealed to be nothing more than a power grab. I thought they were working together to Heal the Tower and keep contact between the Ajahs. Oh well.

Go Seaine! For some reason I've always liked her...maybe for going to a friend in the Red for help with Black Ajah hunt, maybe for giggling about Tar Valon's streets being made of cheese, maybe because "Seaine Herimon" sounds cool. I'm glad she was another to organize some resistance to the Seanchan, along with Saerin and Egwene...would've liked a POV. No harm done, though.

Happy twitching, all.
Wilson Grooms
667. Chriscot
Oh, minor continuity glitch...Karldin Manfor, Beldeine's Ashaman Warder, is referred to as a Soldier. But in KoD Ch 27, it's revealed that he'd recently been raised to Dedicated and then to full Ashaman.

So what exactly will be the raison d'etre for the Red Ajah now? Egwene alludes to expanded purpose for them, but it's not fleshed out. Tarna's plan to have Reds now have Warders, but only men who channel, seems like it will continue...but to what end?

Re: Silviana, I think she's cool, but I expected Egwene to keep Silviana as Mistress of Novices, given her competence there. I expected that because I also expected Egwene to keep Tarna Feir on - two sops to the Red, and another who has proven her composure and willingness to think outside the box. But Egwene maybe hasn't had a chance to see that...and Tarna and the others may not survive what's going on at the Black Tower.

I quite like Pevara, Tarna, and Theodrin...and if Myrelle dies before she can transfer Lan's bond to Nynaeve, as per Moiraine's instructions, it could be bad and could lead to Min's graveside viewing this book. Geez, I hope not. Pevara, Tarna, & Theodrin, much as I like 'em, can all get killed off if only Lan and Nynaeve get to live happily ever after.

Got to admit, though...if all Lan's talk of having nothing to leave Nynaeve except widow's weeds turns out to be true, it'll be gutsy and bold. It'll also make me really sad and REALLY mad.
Wilson Grooms
668. Chriscot
Allisonwonderland@664:

your reference to a dream of Logain stepping over Rand's body rings no bells, and Encyclopedia of the WOT has no reference to it. IOW...whatchu talking about, Willis?

Blocksmith@663: yeah, I guess. I mean, I'm speculating, and I doubt it's the kind of thing that would ever come up (to be confirmed or disproved) in the text but it seems a likely bit of speculation to me.
Pete Pratt
669. PeteP
Everytime I read about "crossing streams" my mind jumps to Ghostbusters.....
john massey
670. subwoofer
@forkroot- no worries;)- see? Winky face again. If I can't learn to laugh at myself then what's the point? I would be just like Rand. Did the smores thing for Halloween, back yard fire pit and all. Good times!

@Criscot- I will tread very carefully around you=666 and all...
"How familiar are you with the Tower's angreal storerooms?"
"Very," Adelorna said.
- good catch.

As for the Greens- yes, they seem a bit off to me. The Battle Ajah tittle sounds impressive, but the reality is, unless you have been in the thick of things, any tittle is only worth the value of the paper it is printed on.

"How dare they strike here!" Kateine continued, crossing the room. Soldiers ducked out of her way, and several less-influential sisters who had gathered at Saerin's order suddenly found things to do at the corners of the room. Distant booms sounded, like the noises of an Illuminator's display.
"They dare because they have the means and the desire, obviously." Saerin replied, shoving down her annoyance and maintaining her calm. With difficulty. "So far, the strike has proven remarkably effective."
"Well, I'm assuming command here," Katerine growled. "We need to scour the Tower and eliminate each of them!"
"You will not take command," Saerin, said firmly. Insufferable woman! Calm, remain calm. "Nor will we go on the offensive."
"And you will dare stop me?" Katerine snarled the glow of saidar a burning light around her. " A Brown?"
Saerin raised an eyebrow. "Since when did the Mistress of Novices outrank a Sitter in the Hall, Katerine?"
"I-"
Game, set and match. MoA.

Woof™.
Joseph Blaidd
671. SteelBlaidd
I can haz WoT

The thing about the Bit with Simarhage is thati f he accesses the TP then the DO has a line on him, and if he had killed Min then left /w Semirhage he would be beyond broke. The DO wins either way.

And Egwene's need search was specificly for knowlidge specificly self knowlige. What she found wasent a clue that the Song is important but that living life is what's important.
Roger Powell
672. forkroot
Chriscot@TheNumberOfTheBeast
Disappointed that the Ajah head conspiracy is revealed to be nothing more than a power grab. I thought they were working together to Heal the Tower and keep contact between the Ajahs. Oh well.
Gee, I read it that they were trying to keep the tower together while enduring what they thought was a temporary split and an incompetent Amyrlin. Perhaps a power grab, but with hopefully high-minded ideals.
Sam Mickel
673. Samadai
Forkroot@mockingTheNumberOfThebeast,

I read it that way also. I thought they were trying to preserve the tower as when the Ajahs have overthrown the Amyrlin and Sitters before.

Just kidding about the mocking
Roger Powell
674. forkroot
Samadai
Which reminds me ... One of the best opening sentences in a book ever: "He's a mad scientist, and I'm his beautiful daughter" (Heinlein - The Number of the Beast). Too bad the rest of the book didn't measure up.
Maggie M
675. Eswana
Whew, I've skimmed through about 2/3 of this comment string and don't have a lot to add other than echoing everyone's squees of delight. I'm sure in the future I can be more objective, but it's just been so long since we've had new material, plus the emotional impact of Mr. Jordan's passing and the sheer rollarcoaster of events in tGS..... whew, I'm spent!


yebeme @646 that would be so awesome. I don't know how likely it is... but it would ROCK. Also, if Mat did sound the Horn again, Birgitte could FINALLY find Gaidal! How wonderful that would be!


SteelBlaid @ 671
AWESOME :-) You have a lucky cat.
Wilson Grooms
676. Rand al'Todd
I am trying to catch up with the comments but am only up to about 110 so forgive, but...

Many are commenting on Mat's plans with back stories for his infiltration team -

These plans are based on memories obtained from the 'Finn of a prior lifetime on Barrayar. Unfortunately, this set of memories did not go as far as the dinner.
Brandon Wood
677. brad21088
I just thought of something today: at the end when Rand says that if he's been reborn, maybe she (Ilyena) has been as well, do y'all think that's a hint (that Ilyena's reborn identity will be revealed) or am I just reading too much into that?
T C
678. Freelancer
chiech22@622

Min's choking will not be reversed. Even though Semirhage was controlling Rand at the moment, it was Rand's hand doing the choking, and that isn't affected by Semirhage's death, because it wasn't her direct action.


leighdb@628

And you are likewise invited to the San Diego signing on the 15th. Probably more chance of you coming west than me coming east.


tebarnerus@650

Tomas went to visit family for his final hours, I'm assuming he agreed to take the same poison, or perhaps just do a salf-inflicted Sheathing the Blade.


forkroot@657

You'd have to trace the thread back to see what I was answering at the time, and you'd find it made sense. Someone had suggested that since the sword was unearthed beneath a statue, it must have been the male Choeden Kal.


Chriscot@667

Lan will survive. Nynaeve's visions in the Acceptitron have been exceptionally prophetic. Her married to Lan, Sharina Malloy, etc. They will have children.
Leslie Annis
679. Lannis
Lily of the Valley @ 665: re: "Burn it!" I did! Me! Me! I did! (@ 606) But I couldn't remember what the actual curse was, only that it's different... and it seems to me that "Light's sakes!" is in there somewhere, too, and it's new...

Steelblaidd! (@ 671) BAHAhahahaha! Nice!
T C
680. Freelancer
brad21088@677

If so, the "obvious" choice would be Elayne. Similarities in name, description, and personality point more toward her than any other choice (that we've seen so far).
Helen Peters
681. Helen
557. Branwhin

Also, regarding Egwene, I really loved her 'locked in a box' scene, where she came to realize just how horrible Rand's time was - how much worse he suffered. Once she has her moments of prophecied anger, whatever the trigger might be, I agree with the hope that it's a bridge between them.

Reading this I thought...back to Rand knowing the Amyrlin's anger... is this her anger directed at him, or could it be her anger for his having been locked in the box by Galina et al. Then it would make the alliance of the Black and White towers easier.

604. chiech22

I know that I have little chance of being read/actually responded to
Hello *waves*

608. Shimrod

The only drawback to very many executed BA being brought back is that there seems to be a shortage of available bodies at Shayol Ghul

Coz the trollocs keep eating them....sorry, in a funny mood.

617. BillinHI

auspicium @595/597: I must have missed something: when did Faolain and company get sent to the BT? I can only come up with the 5 Reds from the WT.

back at the end of KoD, after Logain (possibly) came to invite bonding with asha'men

643. MasterAlThor
Women a question to you. If a man said that they wanted to control you, guide you, show you the right way to do it even if they themselves didn't kknow how, how offended would you be?
Easy way to find out, criticise your wife's driving, but duck quickly and maybe ask for shelter in the bunker.

Question: RJ was asked by readers if we'd seen Demandred's alter ego, has anyone asked the same re Mesaana? If we knew the answer to that we could eliminate either Danelle and co or the 3 random sisters on Eg's list that we'd never heard of before.

My new chant: Sharina for Mistress of Novices. Accelerate her through training of course.

I will now leave you (to go back and read books 7 onwards) with a quote from Unseen Academicals, Terry Pratchet's new book, regarding his wizards and the rules of football, which I thought rather apt for the AS and all the oaths they swear..."...and so we will abide by [the laws] in the best tradition of sportsmanship until we have worked out where they may be most usefully broken to our advantage." Tor let me know if I'm violating umpteen dozen copyright laws by doing that and I'll get rid of it.
Thomas Keith
682. insectoid
Free @678 re: SD signing: Yeah, that would be cool!
Wilson Grooms
683. rothaar
Tuon isn't being pushed by ta'verenness. People never notice that as its happening. The imagery strongly suggests that the Dark Cloud of Evil that has been surrounding Rand ever since he channeled TP is interacting with his mental state to try and force her mind, and she resists. I think this was actually a win for the Light. Evil Rand couldn't be allowed a major victory like that. He had to see that his super-hardness wouldn't work or he'd never have come back.

FINALLY someone realizes that keeping prisoners of evil folk in WOT just isn't a great idea, and executes the bejesus out of them. Not Egwene's biggest moment of awesome in the book, but appreciated none the less.

@34 I was thinking Nyneave and Moiraine with Rand on Callandor, as the Aes Sedei he has worked with before and the one he has started expressly wishing were around. The number of "damnit where's Moiraine" comments from every character in the book strongly suggest she is coming back Real Soon Now and I feel like she is going to have to take a really major plot role to justify all the words spent on her return. Since it doesn't seem that the return of Rand from nutsoland is going to be her job, this might be it.
Of course, his two channeling warderladies make excellent sense, as well. But... they kindof have their own things going on, too. I see them having more interesting roles elsewhere at Tarmon Gaidon.

@35 I find the BFing of Natrin's Barrow (Bandar Eban is the city with starving people, not the fortress) bothered me because we the audience understand what Rand doesn't seem to: the DO's whole goal seems to be the unraveling of the Pattern, and massive amounts of BF... Well, thats what its all about. We've seen the DO exhort Demandred to use BF, while all the clueful Aes Sedei have cautioned against it (tho Moiraine used it herself before her warning). The moral case is more along the lines of killing Liah (right Miaden?) in Shadar Logoth as a Mercy killing. And thats part of the power of the scene. We see the stark contrast in how that one mercy killing affects him compared to this massacre. Sure, it might have been mercy and justifiable, but normal well adjusted sane people cannot wipe out dozens or hundreds of people and just shrug it off because they "know" that it was a mercy killing.
On the use of BF, I think at this point it is pointless. Rand can't know this, but there doesn't seem to be time left for the DO to resurrect Forsaken that are killed now, and honestly I'm not sure it matters. The Light has such an overwhelming apparent advantage in strength in the power at this point that a few Forsaken more or less can't be that decisive. This is less true after he destroys the Choedan Kal, but even aside from that he has Callandor and the White Tower has a bunch of angreal and sa'angreal. The channeling forces of the Shadow took a major hit with the Black Ajah purge. The Taim faction of the Black Tower is a serious problem, true. But even this reinforces the point that a few Forsaken don't matter: the difference between 40% and 50% of the Asha'man being dark is more relevant than Graendal or Semirhage's contributon. Especially since the Asha'man seem like more reliable tools than the Forsaken. Most of the ones willing to enter the frey have already entered and been freyed.

I think that Verin... Well, that was kindof the most awesome reveal ever. After Rand came across those drawings, you *knew* that a Darkfriend was after him. Then Verin shows up, and I'm reading really fast so I accept her story. Only later does it all start to fall together. I can't wait to see whats in the note she left Mat. Which brings up a point... She knew there was a good chance she wouldn't be returning at all from the WT to meet Mat. So, why the specific additional delay? Does she know that after 30 days (was that what they settled on?) it won't matter? Will Egwene find something in her notes that sheds light on this? Or was Verin relying on Mat to be overcome with curiosity/Pattern-forcing to open the note? Is there even *more* going on with her than we know?

Also... I'm really glad that her Comprehensive List of Evil was vindicated by the Oath Rod. Not that I doubted, but I appreciated Egwene's hesitance in trusting all out and checking anyway. Sad that we, the audience, know for a fact that she could have been freed by the Oath Rod, as per the scene with the first Black Ajah they caught (what was her name) who went through the uber-painful oath foreswearing. But it lends way more potency to her sacrifice and character this way. Better story, but more tragic. Really curious what else is in those notes.

@35 Yeah, Gawyn is a jackass. There were times in his POV I was starting to think we were seeing him set up to join the Shadow. But he is moving along, so maybe he'll be a reasonable character later. His father figure put him back on the same track, as did Rand's. These two "cousins" seem to have more parallel's than I imagine Gawyn would like to admit :)

I was really hoping Faile would stop being obnoxious in this book. The remorse scene was nice, but otherwise... I was glad we had limited exposure to her and Perrin. Just enough not to be Sir Not Appearing in this Book was just about right.

(BTW... How can people stand Spoilers? Theres probably a flamewar from the stone age of the internet about this, but I find it baffling that anyone would glance sideways at this post before reading the whole book. I wouldn't look at anything Tor related until I'd finished, just to be safe. To each his/her own, I'm just baffled.)

@39 I think we are supposed to surmise that Moridin told him about BF being the permanent kill weave because the Forsaken are pretty useless servants and getting Rand to BF the Pattern into oblivion is was great way for him to win.

I don't understand the complaints about not seeing Elaida during the battle. First of all, after the face we see that she was incapacitated before she even knew anything was going on, which is perfectly in character though in this case not her fault. Second, the contrast of her absence - as noted by the fledgling resistance as well as readers - and Egwene's "Fount of Power" moment was crucial.

As a side note, when I first read her POV right after Saerin realized Egwene was leading a more effective defense from the novices quarters, I misread a line that I think improved my internal imagery but would have been entirely inappropriate for the series for Sanderson to have actually written. Instead of "the anger of justice, the wrath of the Amyrlin" I read "the angel of justice, the wrath of the Amyrlin" and in memory it changed to "the Angel of Vengeance,...". Wrong word for the series, but when I later read about her from Bryne's POV, the image of serenity in the face of the elements, dealing out the damage, was perfectly honed by the phrase "Angel of Vengeance" ringing in my brain. If this series were ever put into graphical form in any way, I think this scene would bother me the most because I can't imagine it being portrayed as I see it, and its the most vivid mental image of the series I have. (Not that that will ever happen. It'd take 20 TV series to do the damn story justice).

@40 I had a similar thought about the TP being used to cage the DO, but since it *is* the DO, I find it hard to see how that would work. Even assuming that the theories about Rand channeling it via Moridin rather than with the DOs explicit permission (which he obviously wouldn't give for the creation of a seal) its hard to see the DO being held back by himself. Its like making an ethereal diety punch himself in the face.
Also. If the TP *is* the DO, how can it be used to buffer anything from the DO? Likely channeling large amounts of TP and OP in conjunction would just give the DO a direct conduit into the OP or something.

@43 I think the DO needs something very specific from Rand. He needs to be broken but free. Thats why Taim, working for Demandred, released Rand from the box. He'd been left in as long as possible to do the most psychological damage, but had to be free... for whatever reason. Remember the Fisher King.

@44 On the Callandor theory. This makes me almost hope my reasons behind the TP not working as part of the bore sealing is wrong, because its a cool theory. However, I think, in the end, that the TP is pure evil and no good can come of using it. The series is built on men and women working together being the way to accomplish great things. The initial failure is more and more attributed to being a male-only exercise. If the secret missing ingredient was... the evil power of evil to lock away the evil... I'm gonna feel robbed. The double meaning of the three becoming one is appealing, tho. Its obviously not the cities. My first thought when I read the line was the 3 ta'veren, but Mat and Perrin don't exactly have anything to do with Callandor. I suspect that the link that will form when the Dragon is included will be somehow different than that when another man wields it, possibly putting him in control. He must learn to relinquish some control by joining the circle in order to win, but its still gotta be the Dragon that weaves the flows at the last battle? The collected musings of the characters on this have convinced me that something different happens when the Dragon uses Callandor, and perhaps its "flaw" isn't a flaw afterall, but the way that its creators developed to force the Dragon to accept a circle.
Another possibility that strikes me is that the three are Rand, Egwene, and... I dunno, the top Windfinder. Final unity among the channeling forces of Light, or some such. Not my favorite theory, but hey, maybe.

Random point: I felt like about half of the book read like a climax. I guess thats what happens when you have a few books of buildup. I enjoyed all the books, but 8-10 were a little slower. Boy howdy did we make up for that, eh?

Spanking: Now I'm confused. I thought that your problem, Leigh, with spanking was that it was used on adults, and that this was denigrating and you didn't like it being portrayed as ok. Well, here you have spanking used explicitly to denigrate the big evil bad. Doesn't that acknowledge your whole objection by pointing out that it *is* a punishment for children, not for adults?

Rand's devious plan to punch Graendal in the face was awesome, if... messed up. Is not that often that characters in this book have come up with really clever solutions that don't rely on information not available to the reader. This is one. Its way outside the realm of what Rand would have considered Kosher not so long ago, but its still clever and I have no doubt it worked as intended. Shes not even dead, by a good margin.

Now that Rand has banished LTT (gotten over his split personality? Soul-merger? Same thing? who cares?) and such, what other effects do we expect to see? Is his connection with Moridin going to change/go away? Is the dark cloud of evil evilness gone? Dizziness and nausea associated with taking the power? My expectation is that the darkness will leave, and possibly the channeling problems (since they seemed to track worse with his descent), but not the connection. I'm hesitant about the darkness, tho, because that is associated with his channeling of the TP, which was part of the descent and strongly connected with it, but... it feels like too tangible an effect to be banished by an epiphany. I would not be entirely shocked if it were to all go away, but the connection would surprise me the most.

@54 I don't think rand was getting eviller because of Moridin. I think he was getting screwed up because of his massively ridiculous psychological load getting tweaked by the forces of evil all the time. The Aura of Bad is a result of the TP. Even if the TP is somehow from Moridin, any effect it has on Rand is still attributable to the DO, not Moridin, so it seems unlikely that Rand would have an effect on Moridin on this analogy. At the same time, Moridin's hand hurts after Rand loses his. We're practically hit over the head with that connection, so he does mirror Rand to some extent physically, at least.

@55 Yeah! Laras is becoming a seriously interesting character! The cook! How cool is that?

@56 Nice catch on the day length :)

@68 Haha! Asmodean brought back by BF a second time, that would be hilarious. I think that if Rand had used the full power of the Choedan Kal, then maybe. But I think to reach that far back in time would have completely undone the Pattern. Just thinking about how different things would be with Asmodean back, much less everything else Graendal has done behind the scenes (like.... hmm...) in the last, what, 7 books?
That would be seriously whacky, tho.

@69 People who hated it? So far I've only seen the one post, and I assumed it was a troll. Calling this one of the more boring books of the series? Please. (I return to this point after reading more comments and realize that the haters all posted after about 65)

@70 The "zombie" town makes more sense than a lot of the manifestations of the DOs touch we've seen. Lord of the Grave, yo. I didn't think "zombie" until reading these comments, but clearly there are similarities. There may have been other ways this could have been done, but theres a *reason* zombies are so big in pop culture: they are downright freaky.

@102 Several people have termed the final Rand scene anticlimactic. I found it anything but. It was the most emotionally wrenching sequence of the book, for me. Just because it didn't involve some massive conflict or something doesn't mean it lacks drama or power. The fact that its one of the few self-reflective moments we get to see a character experience makes it more special, in my mind. It shows that Rand is special not just because he is strong and badass, but because despite all the shit hes gone through, he has a good enough emotional core to dig him*self* out, with a little help from Dad. I thought that was awesome.

Has anyone else noticed that all of the really large scale screwy Bubbles of Evil we've seen lately have been centered around Mat? Why is that? Perrin has been out and around a ton and hasn't had much trouble. Rand is all super ta'veren and has less bubble attention than Mat. Some others are referenced off screen, but we only see them onscreen around Mat. I wonder if something is being led up to, here.

@165 Good catch with Dragon/Land being one and how that mind affect the food situation. That would be really interesting to see play out. Curious to see if Rand would make the connection at any point.

@187 I had just assumed that I was picturing them too big before. Were they really described as at least a foot tall before? This detail bugged me a number of times but I figured I just had the wrong impression before.

Loony Theory: Rand turns into an actual Dragon (like, the creatures on his arms) for the Last Battle. Come on, the imagery has to come from somewhere! ;)

@199 I forget the timing for sure, but didn't Egwene's about-face on the Oath's happen just about when Helima starting giving massages? Could Ishamael be responsible for the Oaths in the first place?

@202 I don't see why the Fisher King theory is somehow mutually exclusive with the idea that the TP caused Rand's Emanations of Evil. The Fisher King theory just explains how the food supply has been affected even before the TP came into the mix. The TP enhanced an already in progress darkening of Rand, which thereby enhanced the food spoilage effect (especially in proximity to Rand).

@230 I really liked Laras=Mesaana at first, but I don't think that can be right. Verin going to Laras for the tea and being so "Laras is awesome" is a very mild point against. More problematic is the fact that she *didn't* get Egwene out of the Tower. I feel like if Mesaana had decided to get rid of the girl, she wouldn't have been talked out of it like that. It just doesn't feel right.

@248 Did he actually hold TP after other than the first scene with Semirhage? I thought he just kept sensing it.

@317 We have every indication that the TP really is the Dark One, right down to the nasty side effects it has on those who use it. Suddenly making it the great hope of the good guys just seems contrary to the point of the whole series, to me.

I went back to re-read Rand's final scene and noticed something I haven't seen commented on yet. He is said to remember hundreds or thousands of lives. Does this mean that he now has memories from all of the previous Dragons, not just LTT? Is he going to have the same sort of memory situation as Mat, now, with snippets from lots of lives blending together? Someone mentioned Birgitte, which I guess is a better analogy, but I didn't click into the fact that he is remembering thousands of lives now, for some reason. Really curious to see how this plays out in the next book.

Also, I've been thinking about Verin's last hour a lot. I think the fact that the Black Ajah Oaths include the last hour loophole is going to be very significant. She herself points it out, so it isn't like the author(s) are just hoping we don't realize what a dumb omission this is on the part of the Dark One (or Ishy). My thinking is that the DO's ability to take a soul is contingent upon it being that person's choice, with free will. Under whatever cosmic laws of soul ownership apply in the WoT universe, that means that a person must have the chance for "Redemption" before death. The DO includes this loophole because otherwise his hold on the soul somehow isn't sure. This also ties into why he values selfishness so strongly. Selfish people are not, as we have seen, the easiest to form into a coherent, cooperative force. This has caused the Shadow problems in the past, so there must be a reason. Perhaps part of it is that selfish people are the least likely to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others. The extreme rarity of betrayal of the DO is one of his major strengths. The forces of evil don't "trust" one another, at all, but the know that none are working at deliberate counter purposes, and they can always be reigned in if needed. The forces of light have no such assurances.

Ok, I'm at 350 and going to just go ahead and post before I keep reading. People said things since I refreshed the page :)
Henry Loose
684. schrodinger
@Helen 681

love the terry pratchett quote... his books are the WoT of comedy/satire. I'll have to get the new book. (I used to have some of the quotes from his books as my all time favorites from any series, but Rand's quote about Grendy just surpassed them by a lot).
Joseph Daly
685. Joed1414
@678
On Tomas visiting with his Fam.....Perhaps he didn't take the poison and warned the BA so they could escape the tower.
Bob Smith
686. chiech22
@ Helen 681
I stand corrected - Hi back.

@ Freelancer 678

"Min's choking will not be reversed. Even though Semirhage was controlling Rand at the moment, it was Rand's hand doing the choking, and that isn't affected by Semirhage's death, because it wasn't her direct action."


I guess I am perseverating on this issue, but if the balefire is strong enough it wipes out Semi actions in the past - possibly to before she collars Rand, hence Rand is not collared, and does not channel the TP, and does not choke Min, ect

For instance, from tFoH:

"Mat’s smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawled on his back. Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man’s channeling. Asmodean was a twisted shape of char, recognizable only from the blackened harpcase still strapped to his back. And Aviendha... Unmarked, she could have laid down to rest — if she could have rested staring unblinking at the sun.

Let's say that Matt dies first, and his Ashandarei pokes Aviendha (who is barely alive) and that is the killing stroke. Are you telling me that when Rand balefires Rahvin, then Aviendha is still dead because Matt's Ashandarei killed Aviendha and not Ravhin's attack?

Oh well, thanks for listening to the raving lunatic in my head.

Thanks for the posts and rereads, I have not posted until this thread, but I have read almost every comment on the reread thread, silently lurking.

To give a bit back, I asked Brandon at the Chicago signing if it was hard to keep the names/spellings straight, and he said No he had a WOT dictionary in his computer, but he had a really hard time with what was supposed to be italicized , and what was supposed to be capitalized.
Patrick Huff
687. pattack
@664 allisonwonderland

I was trying to find that dream sequence you mentioned to no avail. If you could be a little more specific on where you found it. I do not recall that one either, but I might have forgotten it as well. Elaida's foretelling makes it clear that the Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood, Logain does seem to be the prime suspect to do it.
Roger Powell
688. forkroot
rothaar@683
(BTW... How can people stand Spoilers? Theres probably a flamewar from the stone age of the internet about this, but I find it baffling that anyone would glance sideways at this post before reading the whole book. I wouldn't look at anything Tor related until I'd finished, just to be safe. To each his/her own, I'm just baffled.)
FWIW, I feel the same way. If someone had spoiled Verin's reveal (for example) I would have been really angry. I trusted everyone to behave on the non-spoiled threads though, and everyone did.
Another possibility that strikes me is that the three are Rand, Egwene, and... I dunno, the top Windfinder. Final unity among the channeling forces of Light, or some such. Not my favorite theory, but hey, maybe.
What about Alivia? She's supposed to help Rand die, right? She's also the strongest female channeler (with the possible exception of Sharina Malloy).
My thinking is that the DO's ability to take a soul is contingent upon it being that person's choice, with free will. Under whatever cosmic laws of soul ownership apply in the WoT universe, that means that a person must have the chance for "Redemption" before death. The DO includes this loophole because otherwise his hold on the soul somehow isn't sure.
That's a really interesting thought, one that no one else has put forth yet AFAIK. Makes me feel better about the chance that Ingtar truly reconciled to the Light at the end of TGH.

Joed1414@685
On Tomas visiting with his Fam.....Perhaps he didn't take the poison and warned the BA so they could escape the tower.
I don't see it. According to Verin, Tomas was a darkfriend trying to revert to the light. I think he was on board with her schemes all the way and would certainly not work to thwart her good work.
Patrick Huff
689. pattack
Who is Ilyena?

It's not important who she is. Just knowing that she has been respun into the pattern is hope enough. Why I say it's not important is the fact that she wouldn't remember anyways, at least not on a conscious level.

On another note, it is possible that Olver is Gaidal Cain.
T C
690. Freelancer
pattack@687
That dream of Logain is actually in ACoS, Chapter 10. Basically he steps over what appears to be Rand's body onto a large black stone. When Egwene touches the face of the body, it breaks apart like a paper puppet.
T C
691. Freelancer
pattack@689

Umm, no, it's not possible. Jordan has answered that one directly. T'a'R time passes differently than in the waking world, but it cannot reverse. For Olver to be 9 years old would not allow for Gaidal, last seen in T'a'R long after Olver was born.
Wilson Grooms
692. Rand al'Todd
Up to comment 175 and still trying to catch up - probably falling further behind.

My comments to date: (Wall of Text)

I agree with others that Semirhage appeared to be too easy to break. Would have loved couple of lines during Min’s “demise” that she was just acting as part of a strategy on her part (even if it gets cast as just an after the fact attempt on her part to save face).

Rand’s use of the DO’s power to BF Semirhage – way too “Deus ex” – But Rand has won most of his fights by use of weaves previously unknown to him but which just happen to pop into his head at just the right time. This is my biggest “loss of suspension of belief” problem with the entire series.

Did not have a problem with Rand’s use of BF on Graendel. Chosen deserve to be blasted out of the pattern, never to return. Should make it easier for Light to win next time around. Problem if the Pattern then decides that one of the Go-Light team has to be cut out to rebalance the Wheel.

Is the meeting with Tuon the first time Rand actively TRIES to use his ta'veren nature in a negotiation? I know it has played a role many times, and he essentially recognizes it and backs out of the negotiations with the SeaFolk because its influence has become too obvious to those involved. But with Tuon, it came across to me that he was counting on it to do the job, and, for once, it failed. (It had to fail so that we could get the attack on the WT, but he didn’t know that.) I think Tuon is the first person to recognize then actively resist the ta'veren pull successfully.

Re the Senchan assassin Ninja’s – one down, 4 to go. Any bets/theories on who in the Tower gets attacked early in TOM? Side bets on if the targets live or die? Would be lovely if one of them gets Messana just as she does a reveal during her own attack.

Senchan prophecy about the DR being blind – combined with the prior visions of Mat giving up ‘half the light’ – somehow Mat will voluntarily give up one eye to restore Rand’s vision (because it has been said before that you have to be able to see your weaves to channel.

Re: RobMRobM @ 139:
Aludra - who are they going to use the Dragons on?

The path to TG is going to involve a battle somewhere channeling won’t work – e.g. a Steading, or somehow the DO dampens the source. The Dragons will be necessary to kill masses of Trollocs since the Ashamen, Aes Sedai, and Demane will be virtually powerless.
Wilson Grooms
693. rothaar
@365 I agree that if Graendal killed Asmodean, it was too long ago for the BF to bring her back. However, it was a serious enough BFing that we are going to have to see some weird side effects of her death. Rahvin was taken back, what, roughly half an hour? I think its safe to say that Rand used at least 100x the amount of BF on Graendal, which puts us at just over 2 days.

Actually, screw that. Lets "do the Math". Assume for a minute that the strength of BF scales like the cross-sectional area of the beam (rather than the diameter or something) and that the back-time burnout is directly proportional to this measure of strength. Rahvin was killed with a beam that was, if I remember correctly, just a bit bigger than he himself (lets say 2 meters. The Manor was probably at least 100 meters across, possibly several hundred but less than 1000.

rRahvin = 1m
rGraendal = 50m - 500m

Area = 2*pi*r
ARahvin = 6m^2
AGraendal = 1500 m^2 - 150,000 m^2

So we want to know how much more powerful Graendal's BFing was than Rahvin's. Based on this, between 250 and 25,000. This corresponds to a range of between about 5 and 500 days, depending on the size of the manor. In order to go back 2 months (which I think is about the range of Asmodean's death), we would have to assume a manor size of around 120m (end to end from Rand's perspective).

Ok, so, I've now argued against my original position. My assumptions might be entirely wrong, but they make sense to me, and they indicate that it is entirely within reason that Asmodean, were he killed by Graendal, has now been resurrected (again) by Rand's BF.

Despite this analysis, I'm going to be surprised if we find out that he's still alive. Either team Jordan just didn't do this math, or decided, as is their prerogative, that the math just doesn't work this way. Not to mention, its possible Asmodean himself was killed with BF. That would complicate things a lot. Food for thought, tho.

The more I think about this, the more I think that the only reason the Patter survived this event was because Graendal operated so much through others rather than directly. BF removes your direct actions, but people's memories of them, and the actions they took in response, remain. So all of her manipulations still exist, essentially, even tho her direct actions (e.g. compulsion) don't. With most of the Forsaken, this might have been The End.


I do agree 100% that Ramshalan's condition is proof positive that Graendal is Toast.

@367 True, but I seem to remember a scene about her crying a lot while Egwene was gone that left me feeling more solid about her. (Chesa, for those not interesting in scrolling back up)

@368 I agree. I don't think it is definitive enough for die hards, yet, but I found the whole arc in TGS to be more consistent with the "defense mechanism" interpretation of LTT than "LTT is real", which I take to mean the full-formed consciousness of the dead Lews Therin.

On an unrelated note, I just re-read the scene where Rand seizes TP. Someone at some point said something about him using it to heal Min. I still don't see that anywhere.

@371 I don't think he is actually channeling, at least not consciously, but this does seem to be a TP-related effect. Is it possible that he is essentially "sparking" with the TP? What I mean is that "wilders" often do things with the power without realizing it. Is it possible that he is doing that with the TP in these scenes?

@373 I had forgotten about the burgeoning physical resemblance between Moridin and Rand. This definitely lends support to all of the Rand-Moridin transfer theories, which I've been finding a bit too creepy so far.

@374 Elevating someone else to Nae'blis is *not* a small deal for the DO. Moridin is the only character we know of that is on the DOs side and actually knows the score (DO victory = The End). That is why there was never really any contest as to who would be Nae'blis. Of course, the DO can cut Moridin off without killing him, so the result is the same.

@383 I like the numerology idea, but I still can't see the TP being important in defeating the DO. (I see that Leigh agrees with me! Woot!)

@387 I would agree (Rand free from Moridin's influence) if it weren't for foreshadowing (I forget exactly what, now, but I thought it was one of Min's viewings) that they would somehow merge.
Pelumi Adefope
694. GenghisCan
@685
I believe Verin would have noticed if he was intending to do so. Also, he is in as deep as she is and he most likely killed himself before her in order to avoid the blood-lust that comes to Warders when their Aes Sedai die.

Is it just me or did Gawyn ratchet up a couple levels of awesomeness? He is most likely the best swordsman living as he could best a Warder who had beaten Lan 2 out of 7 times and another capable Warder at the same time. Pretty awesome.

I agree with Leigh. The Seanchan super-assassins didn't really do much but atleast there were only 5 of them. I believe they still have a few hundred. That ter'angreal they all carry is pretty cool though.

Verin...She was so amazing. I feel sad that she did so much behind the scenes and she's gone forever. Makes me wish she had atleast been able to try removing her Black Ajah oaths with the Oath Rod.

Is it just me or were the scenes with Mat and Talmanes awesome? They're like the WoT version of Abbott and Costello.

Perrin...I wish he would just assume the leadership role that's always thrust on him but on the other hand, I completely understand his position though.

Egwene completely carried the book, me thinks. What she went through and how she unified the Tower was awes-mazing. To be honest, I didn't think the Seanchan attack or the Aes Sedai Unification would happen in this book.

And what's up with Rand using Force Persuasion like he's Obi-Wan Kenobi? I was expecting him to say "These are not the droids you are looking for." Does the fact that he can almost force people to his will (like he almost did with Tuon- kudos for her will power to resist) and the darkness being constantly around him have to do with the fact that he's "forcing the Pattern?"

I think if he willed Cadsuane to die, she would have dropped dead then. I guess it makes sense since his state reflects that of the world's.

I'm rambling but it took me like 30 minutes after I finished the book to realize that the prophecy Empress Fortuona spoke about the Dragon Reborn standing on his own grave happened at the end. I'm still not completely sure what happened to Rand internally.

Finally, I loved the scene between Tuon and King Belsan.

Great book. I'm sad I finished it and ToM is 12 months away.
Sam Mickel
695. Samadai
It is amusing to me that people have to use our world logic to describe how they disbelieve something that takes place in a fantasy world story. I am not trying to be demeaning I am just amused
Roger Powell
696. forkroot
rothaar@693
I don't think your math works because Rahvin was balefired in T'AR where time runs differently. Way back in the reread when we were discussing TFoH, I made a convincing argument (well... it convinced me) that that was the reason we could get something like 1/2 hour rollback in real time. Otherwise the "math" (extrapolated from BF'ing darkhounds) didn't work back then.

EDIT: to respond to correct poster!
Richard Boye
697. sarcastro
There isn’t much to cover that wasn’t already covered but...

Black Ajah Prominence
I never actually expected there to be *that* many. It’s roughly 200 out of roughly 1000, right? That’s one fifth. Jinkies.

Plus, they seem implausibly concentrated in positions of authority.

We have seen two Mistresses of Novices, actually three (Merean, Sheriam and now Katerine), at least one Ajah head (Galina), and what, three Keepers? Duhara (was a former Keeper), Sheriam and Alviarin.

Which is not to speak of the fact that it seems that practically each Ajah had at least one “properly” raised Sitter who was actually Black:

- Sedore (TAS Yellow)
- Talene (TAS Green)
- Evanellein (TAS Grey)
- Velina (TAS White)
- Duhara (TAS Red, who came later - she replaced Elaida)

Then you have the oddments and replacements, Moria (SAS Blue), Delana (SAS Grey). It bears noting that Dagdara Finchey was :this: close to being named as a SAS Yellow Sitter, too. (I am also slightly perturbed that we finally meet a Malkieri Aes Sedai, Nacelle, and she turns out to be Black Ajah anyway... Booo!)

Honestly, although the Young/Odd Sitter conundrum is explained (a bit too simplistically, in my opinion), it’s actually interesting to note that there were multiple currents at play in there.

Which brings me to...

The Ajah Head Conspiracy
Hooray! An answer! The Five Heads of the “Unaligned Ajahs” (Ferane [White], Suana [Yellow], Adelorna [Green], Jesse [Brown] and Serancha [Grey]) sent one Sitter each into the rebellion, basically all deciding each send their youngest – these five became the Obstructionist Five (the “Ob5”) – Magla (Yellow), Saroiya (White), Varilin (Grey), Takima (Brown) and Faiselle (Green). They were supposed to suppress the rebellion's worst impulses, and make them more amenable to returning to the fold. A few things got in the way, of course – Elaida’s debacles, mostly, and Egwene’s nascent competence.

Then, they all selected place holders in Tar Valon who were either atypically young and would do as they were told (Rina for the Green [actually Joline first, whom Elaida unchaired] holding Faiselle’s seat, Andaya for the Grey, holding Varrilin’s seat) or took seats in the Hall themselves (Suana for the Yellow, Ferane for the White, holding the seats for Magla and Saroiya respectively)

But...
The oddity of the Brown Ajah is not addressed. As a point of reference, two of the Brown Sitters fled Tar Valon and ended up in the Salidar Hall – Takima (one of the Ob5) and Janya. Of the two new replacements in the Tower one was selected by Jesse and was noted as being too young, Juilaine, but the other, Shevan, is considered a worthy sister for the position. Are we to assume that one of the fleeing Brown Sitters did so of her own volition (Janya) and the other did so because she was told to (Takima)?

There’s another Funky Knot
Bear in mind that all the Sitters not told of the vote to depose Siuan fled Tar Valon with one exception (Seaine). Which leads to some questions:

Firstly, what are the odds that all those Sitters who were dispatched would each happen to be the youngest in her triad :and: also not have been included in the vote? Astronomical, in my opinion. So that might mean that the Ajah Heads made a conscious decision to make some of their Sitters not participat... Or did they? We were told that they didn’t even know it was going on...

I suppose we are just supposed to suppose that Elaida and Alviarin got together, threw together a bare quorum of Sitters, which was heavily leavened with Black sister; of the eleven in the vote, at least four of them were Black Ajah, possibly five (I think I recall that Elaida stepped aside to be a candidate and was replaced by Duhara who voted for her). To raise an Amyrlin, the Greater Consensus is needed (a quorum of at least eleven, at least Sitter from each Ajah and all those present must vote in favor - technically Elaida's election was a nullity - no Blues)

- three Reds (Pevara, Teslyn and Elaida/Duhara)
- one White (Velina)
- two Yellows (Doesine and Sedore)
- two Greys (Yukiri and Evanellein)
- two Greens (Rubinde and Talene)
- one Brown (Saerin)
(the Black sisters' names are in red)


... yet somehow coincidentally, the sisters in that quorum didn’t include the junior ones that would later be sent off as the Ob5.

Meanwhile, on the 'B' Side
The fact that, by and large, the new Sitters chosen in Salidar (with the notable exception of Romanda) were all too young is not addressed. The conversation we see among the Coven of Ajah Heads doesn’t actually address how that came to be. It is highly coincidental that each of the Unaligned Ajahs would all settle on sisters too young for the Hall; it is much more likely to be by design. I know there is a throw-away line in Romanda’s POV that she was pushing for Dagdara, but Magla (the Ob5 Sitter) pushed for Salita, the ‘too-young’ scab Sitter.

From which, I reckon, we are to glean that all the scab Sitters chosen in Salidar were selected at the machinations of the Ob5. Fine, I guess, in theory but really tricky in practice.

-- sorry that was so long.

reference for those who need a refresher: WOTFAQ 2.6.5: Who's Who in the Halls of the Tower; What’s the Mystery About the "Too-Young" Sitters? (which is missing a few bits of updated information .... )
Kev Hamm
698. cavynmaicl
Ok, I have to ask, am I the only one who, when Verin said "Your dress is green." had to deal with the wildly inappropriate Bare Naked Ladies song "Million Dollars" starting up with the line "but not a real green dress, that's cruel!" immediately in his head?

Because, really, that's what happens.

As for Mesaana, did you all miss in the prologue that she's wearing a plain, unadorned white dress? Like, oh, I don't know, a NOVICE DRESS? Which follows because she was summoned and frazzled, so she didn't change. Now you know. And you've known all along since the prologue was released.

Try the pies!
Kelly Houk
699. conanoxen
Rand'alTodd@692

Rand being blind has been fulfilled, not by losing some sight from Semi's attack in KOD, but by him losing sight of the important things. Remember that the prophecy says that (rough translation) ....the blind man will stand upon his own grave and gain understanding.

He literally stood upon LTT's grave, Dragonmount, and gained the understanding he needed. All of this at the end of the book. He was a blind man until he realized that he needed a reason to fight, other than he was supposed to do it, but because his love for others and their ability to be spun back into the pattern, even if they died.

He would still have to win the battle, because otherwise the pattern would fall apart and oops, there goes the wheel and everybody that he loves.
Leslie Annis
700. Lannis
Thinking on Min's conundrum of a prophecy to decipher: the "three become one"... sorry if it's repetitive I'm still skimming through the comments... but been thinking, there's quite a few "threes" to consider:

- three people needed to optimize Callandor's ability
- three powers: saidar, saidin, true power
- Rand's three ladies (perhaps together they equal Ilyena?)
- three ta'veren: RPM
- three in Rand's head (Rand, LTT, plus Moridin?--k, even *I* think this is a stretch...)

So... we have a lot of possibilities here... hmm...

EDIT: 700?! That's got to be lucky, yes?! Free wampum?!
Wilson Grooms
701. Rand al'Todd
Now up to 250.

More comments on comments:

Verin’s stack of letters:

She said that they were for other people. (But she can lie. ?) - I like the theory that she has some for Mat, and some for Perrin, with different versions depending on how her negotiations went time wise. It will be interesting to find out just how many she delivered to other people before popping into Egwene’s room. Wonder if they include dis-information for some of the Chosen.

MSedai @202:

And does anyone think that Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne is a possibility? Maybe it happens in such a way as that Rand doesn't think he has submitted, but For(Tuon)a does?

From the Seanchan prophecy, Rand has to go blind. My guess due to overload with the TP. He will bow during his blindness. Mat will somehow (while in ToG???) donate one of his eyes so that Rand can see again.

mikauk@239
“Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow” and “Egwene does her need walk and she ends up in a Tinker camp? THE SONG, WE IS GOIN' TO FIND IT!”
Finding the Song has been discussed before as being important. Glad to see that the issue is still around, with new clues. Now it is obvious that the song must be sung to restore the land. Questions remain: Where has the Song been hiding? Who will actually find it? Before or after TG??? And the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION: Is Rand baritone or tenor? Or is Loial the “Prince of the Morning”? My guess is that the answers will be part of Avienda’s experience in Ruidean.

johntheirishmongol @230 “I now think that finding Mesaana is pretty simple. It has to be Laras.”

I think a scene in an earlier book had Alvarin note that the bottom of Mesaana’s dress was white. At the time it seemed to imply she was hiding as a novice, but folks comments that one of them would not have enough free time. So I also concluded in TGS that she had to be Laras (white chef’s outfit). Trying to get Egwene in that hidey hole was too suspicious to me, then the head count of candidates who did not flee the Tower makes it fairly conclusive.

And does that raise Mesaana’s rank in the “who killed Asmo?” debate. If hiding as a cook in the Tower, she would be perfectly dressed to travel over and pop in just as Asmo was looking for some wine next to the kitchen. And she would have killed him because she feared recognition and exposure. (Not sure who she was visiting but…)
Roger Powell
702. forkroot
cavynmaicl@698
I have always presumed that Mesaana uses the Mask of Mirrors weave (inverted of course) as well as a weave to diminish her perceivable strength in the power. She would certainly have to disguise herself to pose as AS, since she would lack the ageless face.

The tougher question is whether she could pass for a novice. Remember that the White Tower only takes in novices up to the age of 21. It's doubtful that she could look that young based on the number of years she was alive in the AoL.

Granted, many can stay in novice white for a number of years -- but that would have made it impossible for her to assume an identity since she's only been out of SG for a few years now.

Once we conclude that she has to disguise herself in the WT, then the color of her outfit when she shows her undisguised self to Moridin does not provide any clue to her WT alter ego.
Roger Powell
703. forkroot
Rand al'Todd
As you go through the comments further, you'll find that the idea of Mesaana as Laras has been thoroughly debunked. There area whole number of reasons why, including Verin's statements about Laras; however the clincher IMO is Lara's appearance in New Spring.
Wilson Grooms
704. Aye Aye Sedai
693. rothaar
Ok you proved that Rand needed exponentially more power to BF the Palace than an individual - however that extra power was consumed by the larger area and did not allow for much greater erasure of time. IF he had focused all that excess power specifically on G then perhaps we could have seen something interesting but evidence in the book suggest that the BF did not extends back in time to say restore any other Merchant Council member or the poisoner apprentice.

Wondering if Moridin and Rands links go back as far as the Falme wound in his side or are only after the BF streams crossed, IF not--- perhaps BF trying to BF another BF results in an unending Paradox that can only be resolved by making the two BF streams originating from the same point (ie being the same) thus requiring the two sources being the same - hence the Moridin/Rand merge.
Wilson Grooms
705. yebeme
I really like the idea that the seasons and environmental disturbances are connected to Rand. Looking at the first book, spring only breaks out when Rand truly first starts coming into his power. Then when he gains mastery of it and is at his strongest the world is plunged into a neverending summer. After that, when he is plagued with scores of wounds, both physical and emotional, the world is shrouded in a storm that never breaks with all the food spoiling. It may not be a direct connection--in other words, Rand doesn't indirectly control these things--but it is an interesting thematic choice that I never noticed before.
James Jones
706. jamesedjones
Re: Three become One

Looney Theory: Dun, dun, DUN!

Oooookay, back in TSR Chapt 26 The Dedicated we get a POV from Jonai, who saw Callandor. This is the fabled sword of legend (and, probably, an object of revulsion for the original Aiel), but the text only said:
A crystal sword - perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling - held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor.


So my question would be, wouldn't a sa'angreal of that power be better known after fighting a war that had raged for somewhere around a hundred years? The Fateful Concord only took effect at the end of the War of Power. Where was Callandor before then? With women and men linked, and no taint in place, Callandor should have seen non-stop use. Unless it was designed for something else...

Consider this, Beidomon and Mierin had just discovered a potential energy source outside of the pattern. The knowledge of creating objects of the One Power was well known. But all knowledge was limited by the separation of the two powers. In preparation of taping this power, wouldn't it be reasonable to construct one or more objects specifically designed to capitalize on this breakthrough?

If Callandor were one of those objects, would the Aes Sedai even consider whether it had a use outside of its original purpose? Or would it have been tossed in a box to be forgotten (maybe with a note that said "Don't touch" - or "3 for $1" :P) until it was referenced in prophecy.

IMHO I think any sa'angreal, even a flawed one, would have seen a lot more action during the War of Power, unless it was considered a HUGE mistake - and maybe tainted by association. My looney theory is that Callandor was created with whatever information they had about the power beyond the bore (although it wasn't there yet) in order to tap all three powers.

There are a ton of holes in this theory. We have no knowledge of when Callandor was created. We have no idea what information was available to Beidomon and Mierin. And we don't know if it was in the hands of the Aes Sedai during any of the War of Power, since there were other objects (such as the HoV) that sould have seen a lot more action, too.

But the whole "Three become one" prophecy has sounded terribly obtuse to me since I read it (just another reason why I was not a fan of this book), so I just wanted to add some creativity to the idea.
battle ajah
707. battleajah
brinoch@221:

I've always thought that the Seanchan prophecies of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne was part of some misinterpretation / bad handwriting / misspelling of lowly Seanchan scribes tasked to copying the prophecies.

But I like your idea of how Rand's sword (if it is Justice) is part of the "edge of a blade" prophecy in some sort of truce between Fortuona and Rand.

Just hitting it out to left field: What if in the process of kneeling to the Crystal Throne, Rand finds Justice jumping out of his hand and fitting itself into the Crystal Throne as some sort of hidden property of that ter'angreal?

Okay, I'll go back to lurking now.
Wilson Grooms
708. krafka
Wow. I thought the FAQ and Encyclopaedia WoT were comprehensive, but some of the observations here really show an impossible level of detail.

So, your collective wisdom on the Seanchan and Traveling would be greatly appreciated.

1. Tower sisters or only BA? Are we sure that the Seanchan got Traveling from one of the captured AS - even if they got Elaida. We know that Mesaana taught Traveling to BA (Alviarin), but it doesn't seem that any of Verin's known BA were captured. Do we know that Tower AS who could Travel were NOT BA. Katerine was black and the status of the sister collecting tributes is unclear.

2. They still couldn't easily move an entire army. While the Tower is statistically not a random sample of women who can channel, the Aiel wise ones and Windfinders are probably closer to what a random distribution would look like - similar to what damane would be if all women who could channel were leashed.

Women as strong as Moiraine (Romanda, Lelaine, pre-stilled Siuan and Leane, Garenia, Rainyn) are uncommon. Women as strong as Aviendha (Egwene, Elayne, Metarra) are less so - Aviendha is one of the strongest women among Aiel (except Someryn, Tamela, Viendre). Elayne cannot make a gateway large enough for Mat to stay on horseback and use - which irks him, but is a point of pride for her. Few women can make a usable gateway, let alone one as large as the one Elayne made.

3. Damane cannot link to form a circle. Egwene notes that they cannot link during the battle at the Tower, so shielding her was unlikely. If they cannot link, how many women would have to form individual gateways to move 10,000 men, let alone an entire army. How many women would be strong enough to do so among the available damane.

4. Convenience or canon. As an aside, damane not being able to link to form a circle seems new. Of course, there are always likely to be a few extremely strong channelers like Alivia, but how is it that Egwene was shielded and leashed so easily the first time if the damane were not linked when they shielded her.

Amys (who could barely hold the shield on Egwene) by comparison is noted though the transitive property of equality to be one notch below Moiraine (comparable to a Sheriam, Leane, Theodrin) - ACoS (Unseen Eyes): “In the One Power, she and Melaine were no stronger than Theodrin and Faolain, far from weak, indeed stronger than most Aes Sedai, but far from a Forsaken’s strength too.” Very few women are as that strong - it's purely coincidence that one just happen to be there?
Wilson Grooms
710. Silvertip
@698: HA! HA! HA! Absolutely brilliant connection with the Barenaked Ladies! (Except you have now permanently ruined that MoA scene for me, you son/daughter of the sands).
j p
711. sps49
leighdb @628-

I'll be at one of the SF area signings in late November (and why could I find a schedule at Dragonmount but not tor.com?). I won't be in NY until Thanksgiving.

Now I'm thinking- we should come up with a way for commenters to recognize each other, so we can tell each other how they should stop finding data that conflicts with our pet theories. I won't suggest red headbands, because a sureno might shank me...

Skip @550-

Rand has been feeling the sausea since the balefire "crossing the streams", I believe.

But, as has been said before, I really don't think the TP will be used for anything good. It is controlled too tightly by the DO, it is so so very evil, I just don't see why it is a believable theory.

Plus, I don't think the Last Battle will involve any patches. Isn't that Herid Fel's main point, that the Bore must be healed, not patched? (Paging Nynaeve!)

Chriscot @***-

Good catch on Adelorna and the angreal!

But your 668- the viewing is in LoC.
Wilson Grooms
712. stargazer
Re: "Way too many Black Ajah, and too many in high positions of authority"

Actually I think both of those facts together are less implausible than either one of them would be on their own. Consider:

1) What, exactly, has the BA been doing for the last few thousand years? It's not as if they could actively work towards freeing the DO in any way, and apart from very occasional drive-by hauntings by Ishamael, there was no direction coming down from the top.

2) If you're some random mid-level Aes Sedai, raised your whole life with all the typical Randland beliefs (i.e. "DO=very, very bad"), what on earth is your incentive to join the BA? That's as unexpected as if, say, in our world some Jesuit priest suddenly decided to become a satanist. WTF?

The way I see it, for most of that time, the BA probably functions in a lot of way as a secret club to advance whatever its members' own desires and ambitions are. You vote for me, I'll vote for you; here I'll get you this prestigious job; let's scheme ourselves into getting appointed ambassadors somewhere warm and with a beach; etc, etc. The DO would even like this (selfishness, remember?) It's like a gateway drug: first you think that you're just joining a hidden sorority that will get you money and power (or first pick of all the sexy black Warders, for all I know...), and only once you're in deeper do you find out there's actual murder and mayhem involved. "Join us and we'll help your career get ahead" is a way, way easier recruiting line than "join us to worship a horrible evil dark god and destroy the world"...

After all, I wouldn't find it too surprising to learn that, say, 200 politicians out of a group of 1000 turned out to be corrupt at some level or another. Some worse than others, in both groups! You've got some really nasty ones, your Alviarins and your Nixons, and some only kinda crooked ones, the Sheriams and Spitzers of the world, done in by their own desires.
Rob Munnelly
713. RobMRobM
Wow. The best goes on with no sign of stopping until ToM....

Random notes.

Nacelle, the Malkieri AS who turns out to be BA, was the one who discovered the weave for saidin in KoD. What is the purpose served by giving that weave to the Rebel AS?

Note in Foresaken social in beginning, Graendel makes comment that Mesaana probably joined the dark because it was a cool subject for study. Big foreshadow re Verin later.

Have this sinking feeling that Elaida is going to talk her way to Fortuona and talk some smack about either Rand or Egwene that's going to delay the ultimate getting together of Seanchan and Dragonsworn. Ugh.

Don't forget about Elaida's prophecy in CoS, that the Black Tower will be rent by blood and sisters will walk the grounds. Sounds like another awesome power-wrought battle scene (even though sisters already walk the grounds). But it does suggest that we'll get a Logain-Egwene combined strike force rather than just Logain, his Ashamon, with the handful of bonded sisters in camp. Same one also calls for re-forged tower (done now) and DR hearing the Amyrlin's anger. Query how that will happen - will Rand travel to White Tower to ask something of Eg and have bitch fest which will turn into real communication? Eg probably can't travel to him for violation of rule re Amrylin safety.

Don't forget about the harbor chains. Tar Valon still isn't going to be particularly easy to trade with over upcoming months - but at least they can now off-load and send food and supplies overground. Eg will have to deal with it. (Vague parallel to Amber series where Corwin had to deal with the adverse effects of the curse he put upon Eric.)

Still can't believe Gawyn totally ditched his Younglings. *headdesk* That will be in interesting reunion when they come back - although they will serve as a good pool of warders, as hinted in Gawyn dialogue with one of them at start of book, so they'll be popular.

Again I ask - where the heck is Talann and Merlille, who can travel. Why weren't they in rebel camp already.

Aludra's dragons will be needed in Tarwin's Gap. If Moridin's center of operations is in far eartern portion of blight, that is the route the the massed armies will need to travel to get to Randland. Stedding theory, as someone intrestingly noted above, is almost plausible but they are too geographically small and out of the way to matter during TG. It will matter when they bomb the cr$p out of 200,000 trollocs at a range of over a mile, long before the supporting Dreadlords can come in range. Also Eg will send lots of AS up as well, including Sharina who will become Lan and Nyn's personal AS healer in the restored Malkieri state (per Acceptatron dream).

I may be wrong but don't think so - isn't the strange darkness that Cads and other see in front of Rand's face in the latter part of the book is the early form of saa that one gets from use of the TP. He didn't use it enough to get actual saa but the one use got things started.

Lots to chat about. I'm taking a few days off before starting a full re-read.


Rob
T C
714. Freelancer
rothaar@693

Aye Aye Sedai @704 beat me to the math. You couldn't apply your massive balefire theory as you did, because only that portion which struck Graendal's body, IE the quantity of energy used to remove her from the Pattern, would determine how far back her influence upon events would be erased. That would obviously be far less than the multiples produced by your (otherwise) excellent mathematical extrapolation.


jej@706

We do know something about Callandor. In TSR, Chapter 26 The Dedicated, Solinda Sedai has Callandor, as it sits atop the Dragon Banner. They used it with the remaining sane male Aes Sedai to create the Eye of the World (safe to do so in a circle controlled by women), which they then gave into the possession of Someshta, along with the banner. Afterward, any remaining female Aes Sedai would have kept it hidden from the insane males, so no, it wouldn't have been used if at all possible.

A better question is, who hung it in the air in the Stone, and placed wards which Rand was able to unravel, or which were attuned to him alone? And who gave Someshta the Horn of Valere, and one of the Seals at the Eye?


krafka@708

Beonin teaches Elaida Traveling early in KoD. Later Elaida allows some spreading of the knowledge. Also, Mesaana shows the weave to Alviarin. So at the very least Elaida will be able to give the Seanchan a decent gateway, as she is of enough strength easily.

Canon. The a'dam is a forced circle, no linking with anyone else while it is in use. What's funny is, while damane cannot, the sul'dam could link. Except that they'd never try it, because they don't know they can channel.

The shield on Egwene was brute force by multiple channelers. When several channelers hold a shield on someone, they are not joined in a circle. As proof, when Rand is in the box, if those holding his shield were linked, there would only be one point to feel (whoever was directing the flows), instead of many. Also, they wouldn't have been able to choose as individuals to leave the shield tied off.
j p
715. sps49
Oh, yeah, Gawyn.

Gareth Bryne did smack his self image around, including the poor Stones skill bit. But he also is first to bring up the "why do you fight" question, foreshadowing Rand's introspection.

I think there is a third person- Perrin? He did go into his "why", chasing Faile to the exclusion of all else because he wanted to duck his responsiblities everywhere else, postponing his issues.

Freelancer @ 714-

I always assumed it was that Aes Sedai council that placed everything, and isn't a Nym hanging around? I always assumed that was Someshta.

The Callandor wards, though- they use saidin, and lasted until Rand without decaying like the Ways, so they must have been made before the SaSG. Someone (or several) with Foretelling must have deduced preparations needed better than any 3rd Ager ever.
James Jones
716. jamesedjones
714 Freelancer
In TSR, Chapter 26 The Dedicated, Solinda Sedai has Callandor, as it sits atop the Dragon Banner. They used it with the remaining sane male Aes Sedai to create the Eye of the World (safe to do so in a circle controlled by women), which they then gave into the possession of Someshta, along with the banner.
Not necessarily. In TEOTW, Chapt 50 Meetings at the Eye, Moiraine said,
They worked through the taint of the Dark One on saidin to make it, and make it pure, knowing that doing so would kill them all.
So the Eye was made after the Stone of Tear, or by a different group. Either way, they probably weren't using Callandor, since making the Eye killed all of them (men and women).
Roger Powell
717. forkroot
Freelancer@714
A better question is, who hung it in the air in the Stone, and placed wards which Rand was able to unravel, or which were attuned to him alone? And who gave Someshta the Horn of Valere, and one of the Seals at the Eye?
You ask some good questions, and it would be interesting to find out the answers. Maybe when Avi goes back to Rhuidean we can get another POV when she's in the angreal and find out more cool stuff from the time of the Breaking. It would certainly make sense to have her gain some knowledge that might be of critical use for Rand later.

jamesedjones@706
Another point in favor of your looney theory: Lanfear(Mierin) repeatedly urges Rand to use Callandor in TSR. This might make a lot of sense if there is some TP connection and she is trying to get Rand to join her on the side of the shadow.
Wilson Grooms
718. jrmywvr
"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,
for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.
Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.
He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.
Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

People in Randland have been blaming food spoiling and the sparse plant growth on the DO touching the world. However, this prophecy seems to link the poor state of the world, stuff not growing, food spoilage, etc. to Rand's recent hardness. That could explain why the decay of food happens faster when he is around and even faster after semi makes him snap. So now that he's laughing again will food stop spoiling and plants start growing?

Also, I had a random thought about the whole who has to serve who re: crystal throne and DR. The Seanchan say the Dragon has to kneel before the crystal throne and Moiraine said the Dragon would bind the Nine Moons to serve him. However, neither of these actually quote the related prophecy so maybe the actual meaning is a little obscured. What if, and here's the random part, they are both fulfilled by (are you ready for this?) Rand and Tuon--and some third female channeler--being linked with callandor! Yeah, I know...but the nine moons would be bound to the dragon through the link and if Tuon controlled the link, then the dragon would defer to the crystal throne (actually kneeling being a metaphor).

I dunno, some stuff just pops in mah brain sometimes.
Wilson Grooms
719. Aye Aye Sedai
@ 712. stargazer They are all corrupt - break break break them all!!!
I guess our congress is pushing 46-50% (% corrupt in the Senate at least)

@713 Rob - Wonder what a spinning deathgate over the cuiendalliar chains - not breaking them but leaving pieces in different areas :)
Perhaps move the gate over the whole chain and drop in on Shayol Ghul

Anyone notice the taxonomy similarity to Gaol? (Shadow's Jail)

Looks like the Shaido are destined to be the remnant of the Aiel.

Anyone catch the TV ads for the Book ? Basic and Simple but have not seen many books publicized - Should name the next book Rand Going Rogue to get higher Sales :)
Lindy Brown
720. lbrown
@ 203. KilMichaelMcC

Wanted to point out a continuity error I (think) I noticed: Sulin leads the Maidens who scout out around Greandal's place, but she's still supposed to be with Perrin's group, isn't she?

Totally, I noticed that, too.
Alice A
721. Wetlandernw
Well, I finally finished. There were way too many demands on my time this past week! Having read Leigh's review, I find that I'm mostly in agreement, with a few minor variations. And once again, I'm going to post this without going through all the comments. 720? Not a chance I'm going to read them all anyway, but I promise to go through and look for the good stuff after I get this done. If I repeat anyone else, so be it.

It was a very strange feeling, reading this book. I think I was feeling a bit giddy with the release, and the book arriving a day or two earlier than I expected. Those first chapters were pretty exciting, and things were looking good for Team Light. I have to admit, I wanted to absolutely ROAR with laughter when Cadsuane broke Semirhage, partly because it was rather unexpected and partly because of all those "discussions" about spanking. What an absolute HOOT!! But then... it was followed so quickly by Semi's "rescue" and then the scene with Rand using the TP, and it all went sideways. Ouch. It was really hard to read any of the Rand scenes from there on out. It hurt. I think that's another reason it took me so long to finish the book; it was pretty easy to put the book down when I got to those scenes. I just didn't want to read it.

(Looney theory time: Incidentally, I think Rand's touching the TP was NOT intentional on the part of the DO. In fact, I don't think the DO realized Rand did it; it came through his link with Moridin, and it's still to be revealed whether Moridin realized it happened or not. But my theory is that Rand will be able to touch it again, and it's what he will use to seal the DO's prison properly. He'd just had that conversation with LTT: "It didn't work. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!" Because of the link with Moridin, by the design of the Creator, Rand will be able to use the DO's own power to "touch him" and seal him in; his taint will affect only his own power, leaving the OP free and clear.)

There were a few very bitter moments, to me, when a realization finally dawned on someone, too late for it to really matter. Cadsuane finally realizes how to break Semi, and then it's useless because she's freed, wreaks havoc and gets balefired. Nynaeve, remembering what Moiraine had done to be effective in dealing with Rand, but he won't stand still long enough for her to do anything with it. That scene between Cadsuane, Min, Nynaeve, some other AS and then Tam... Tam & Min finally making Cadsuane see where she was wrong. "This is wrong." (over and over) "A bully is a bully, whether she uses the strength of her arm or other means." "This is what we all get for assuming we can make him do what we want." Too late. Rand's own realization at the end only made it bittersweet. Oh, but I loved the title of the last chapter. Sweet, Harriet. Oh, so beautiful.

On a more objective note, I was very pleased to find myself not the least bit disconcerted by the change in voice. (Apparently Brandon's "read" on the characters wasn't so different from my own after all.) Not to "dis" RJ at all, but it was so refreshing to read a few scenes where people were actually honest and up front with each other. (Siuan & Bryne with the oath-breaker scene, anyone? Verin?) The number of plot-lines and mysteries finally wrapped up in this one book through just a few scenes where folks finally told the truth is phenomenal, and makes me realize that without those scenes, it would take another 12 books to finish. Wow. It just felt a bit like RJ had made it impossible for himself to write those scenes, so having Brandon take it over makes it possible for them to be written and get it done. Whew!

And totally not objective... oh, Verin. Oh, Verin. A true hero. Oh, Verin.

(And I cried at Faile & company's mourning scene, too.)
Barry T
722. blindillusion
405@Freelancer re: Sword - Thanks much. I didn't read too deeply into Rand's thinking about the sword being found under the statue and made an assumption...and you know what they say about assumptions.

Then, I didn't say the sword was Justice, I simply asked why couldn't it be. I was really just trying to dispel the Turak's sword theory.

488@Billin re: Bloodknives - Yeah, I get you now. I thought Tuon's comment that they would not come back meant they had already activated their ter. Seems they would have activated them before going in.

Guess I wanted them to all be dead because super secret assassians no one can see tend to frustrate me when reading

But those ter do raise an interesting question. I believe it's said somewhere that the Seanchan only know how to make adam. Where are they getting the Bloodknives's Stones from? It would appear they are either making them or they have quite a few of the things as it would be hard to retrieve something left behind by an assassion with a kamakazi bend.

514@UK Chris

Doesn't Gareth or Siuan or SOMEONE know that Gaebril was Rahvin? That dead horse of Gawyn's needs to get burned.


This has always made me place a brick on my desk before *headdesking* it. Does ANYONE besides Rand, Nyn, Mat, Avi, Moiraine, Egwene, a few thousand Aiel, etc etc know about this? What am I even asking here? Does Bryne still think "Gabriel" was a real person? Bah...this should be worldwide knowledge by now.

592@Mike G re: Dragons/Dragon Eggs - I'm still gonna say if any dragons get used, it won't be many. I believe this weapon will be one of the hinge points of the 4th Age.

Cuendillaring(?) them would help to keep them from blowing up while trying to get them to function, I suppose, but first Mat would have to know the process has been reinvented. Of course, that would make my Mat's armor theory a little more feasible.

@Rand re: Veins of Gold - Did anyone else get a Harry Potter, Love is the Key, vibe from that section.

"It is your ability to love, Rand al'Thor, that makes you more powerful than the Dark One."


Yep, who needs Gandolf the White when you have Dumbledore. LOL

Anyway, I finally caught up on the comments. Maybe I'll throw my two cents in again. But I must say, I enjoy the commenting in the re-read much more. Talking about two-to-three chapters out of one of these books is much preferable to commenting on the whole thing.

Leigh, I do love this review you've written. And I do have to say thanks much for writing it. The Abominable Snowman reference had me in stitches.

Just can't wait for the re-read to recommence and I'm really looking forward to breaking this book down in a few months.


Happy Times -

Blind
Wilson Grooms
723. Planeswalker
guessing game again???

1000-mark, anyone? =)
Wilson Grooms
724. Balefiredjock
Loony theory about TP.

What if TP is the essence of the Dark Lord. What if Rand draws excessively on it and forces it back in the DL's prison. Kind of like what he did to cleanse the male half of the power.

And random question,
Can someone balefire themself ?
T C
725. Freelancer
Whoa, everyone ganging up on me about Callandor. Ok, here goes...
...He slipped in quietly, though, and was glad he had. Half a dozen Aes Sedai stood around the long table, arguing, apparently not noticing when the building trembled. They were all women.
He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword - perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling - held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?
"What good is your Foretelling," Oselle was almost shouting, "if you cannot tell us when?" Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. "The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!"
Dark-eyed Deindre faced her with a more usual calm. "I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell."
"Peace, sisters," Solinda was the calmest of them all, her old-fashioned streith gown only a pale blue mist. The sun-red hair falling to her waist was nearly the color of his own. His greatfather had served her as a young man, but she looked younger than he; she was Aes Sedai. "The time for contention among ourselves is past. Jaric and Haindar will both be here by tomorrow."
"Which means we cannot afford mistakes, Solinda."
"We must know. . . ."
"Is there any chance of. . . .?"
Jonai stopped listening. They would see him when they were ready. He was not the only one in the room besides the Aes Sedai. Someshta sat against the wall near the door, a great shape seemingly woven of vines and leaves, his head a little above Jonai's even so. A fissure of withered brown and charred black ran up the Nym's face and furrowed the green grass of his hair, and when he looked at Jonai, his hazelnut eyes seemed troubled.
. . . .
"Can we trust Kodam and his fellows, Solinda?"
"We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and. . . . And we have no choice."
"Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more."
Jonai bowed his way out formally as the Nym rose, his head brushing the ceiling. Already immersed in their plans, they were not looking at him, but he did them this last honor anyway. He did not think he would ever see them again.


The sword must wait. I believe that Callandor was unfinished, lacking only the buffer against the taint. But they had no time left, so they proceeded to create the Eye, using the unbuffered sword, the strongest male sa'angreal available, and the young male channelers to draw and purify the pool of saidin. Someshta was charged with keeping it hidden from all except those with a pure motive and great need. It is possible that the seal and the Horn were already on hand at Paaren Disen, but odd that they weren't mentioned. The making of the Eye did indeed destroy all those involved in its making, according to Moiraine, potentially due to the strain of working with tainted saidin through an unbuffered sa'angreal. Someone took Callandor from there and kept it safe, and then after the Stone was built, placed it with wards. I don't see how a male could have done so, as a male channeler wouldn't have been welcome. So the wards would have been of saidar, but somehow attuned to the Dragon.

There is no question that the Stone of Tear does not predate the Strike at Shayol Ghul. That was the prelude to the Breaking, and all references to the Stone are that it was the first fortress built after the Breaking. The Eye was not made at a later date than the Stone either, because here is the creation of the Eye, and here is Callandor, both in this scene, prior to the destruction of Paaren Disen.
Ed Rafferty
726. BigBoy57
Just a random thought after re-reading. The WO's call Aviendah "child" a number of times while working her over trying to get her to stand up to them. IIRC they always used "girl" to Avi and Eggy in earlier books.

I did get confused way back up the comment chain when I thought Nyn would detect saidin compulsion weaves ... oops.
T C
727. Freelancer
@724

They could, but then it wouldn't have happened. Like Daffy Duck's magic trick of blowing himself up, except he can do it more than once? Maybe more like Claire Bennett jumping from buildings.
Wilson Grooms
728. Keztra
As for killing Semirhage with the TP-Balefire, it was only a small amount (a bar the size of his hand or smaller). He had been choking Min (one handed) for at least a minute, probably several when he snapped, and there were sevel seconds of thought with LTT before he broke free from the Dominion bands, and several seconds more before he BF's Semi. The text isn't clear as to whethor or not Min died before the use of the BF, but it seems clear that Rand didn't use enough on Semi in that timeframe to undo all of his Min choking, which still show up as bruises. I prefer the Min died-which causes Rand to snap theory, but it isn't clear enough.
Doug LeBeau
729. dlebeau
Heh, to be fair, he did only balefire a palace, not a city :P

I really thought that Rand was well written through the majority of the book, though I am not sure how he gets to laughing at the end. He really struck me as someone who felt he was perilously close to running out of time and almost panicked in his reaction to that realization. Also, the whole Semiharge thing was extremely traumatic, so I think we can forgive him for a few of his outbursts/actions after that fact. The balefire the palace thing...If he honestly couldn't think of a way to beat her, and remember, he has Lews Therin's memories of pretty much a long ass war of probably trying to counter her and obviously failing, to help him along here, then is he not justified? Anyone hanging out at that palace was likely burned out by compulsion or a darkfriend.

Perhaps it comes down to the nature of balefire for a lot of people, but really it's the only way to kill a forsaken for real, blame Jordan for that problem, not Rand.

It is darkly amusing that Tam's visit, horrible though it was, catalyzed Rand's reemergence from his emotional exile. Perhaps all that is needed to seal the deal is Tam hugging Rand immediately when they meet again.

Mat was different, but he is married now. Given how he holds to his word in every other situation and he had no other major characters to riff off of I think we can credibly believe that he may just be off his game. The tone was different though, not denying that, but maybe changing your outlook based on his circumstances will make you guys who are disappointed a little happier.

I don't think we needed Mat/Shaun of the Dead to understand that evil was touching the pattern, and I do not believe it added anything to the novel. Just rescue Moiraine already and move on. When I think of how much more ground there is to cover that is mandatory I feel that such frivolity is problematic.

Anyone who was a major fan of TPoD or CoT would perhaps not like this book. TGS was rather action packed, more than any other book in the series. Also, it was wildly different from every other book thus far in that questions/theories/predictions and plot lines were being resolved throughout the whole novel. The last couple of books were bound to be written in such a way even if Jordan was at the helm for the whole book. We desperately needed plot lines resolved and a convergence of the various characters and outstanding issues.

I, for one, very much enjoyed the novel, though I admit that the previous books have permanently damaged my enjoyment of Perrin, and on subsequent rereads I have just been skipping his parts again.

I have reread every word of Egwene's storyline at least 7 times already, and that is saying something as she spent most of the series as one of my least favourite characters (I discount Perrin/Faile as they are well outside the standard deviation).

Nynaeve is spectacular, and as much as the battle of the sexes nature of almost every male - female interaction in the series grates on my nerves, I have liked and understood her from day one. I was very pleased that Rand chose her in the previous books to be his counterpart and that the relationship has continued. I am frankly surprised that after Far Madding and cleansing the taint that neither Cadsuane nor the Wise Ones considered trusting/manipulating her sooner.

Leigh, thanks for all your reviews and re-reading goodness. It is obvious from your writing that you are thoughtful and intelligent.
Joanne
730. Joanne
@ Freelancer 725
I like your theory about Callandor and the Eye of the World, but I have a small correction.
I happened to reread the section in TDR yesterday in which Egwene meets Sylvie (Lanfear) in the Stone of Tear in TAR. As she examines Callandor she discovers that the ward around it is both saidar and saidin.

@724 and 727
Interesting ideas about balefire…
Would that be like travelling back in time? (possibility of correcting your own mistakes if you are desperate enough…)
T C
731. Freelancer
Keztra@729
He screamed, in both rapture and rage, and wove enormous spears of Fire and Air. He slammed the weaves against the collar at his neck, and the room exploded with flames and bits of molten metal, each one distinct to Rand. He could feel each shard of metal blast away from his neck, warping the air with its heat, trailing smoke as it hit a wall or the floor. He opened his eyes and released Min. She gasped and sobbed.

Min turned purple, but she lived through the entire event. Rand had released the TP before he returned his attention to her, as well.


Joanne@730

Ah yes, you're right. Given that Egwene discovers that both halves of the Power are present around Callandor about two sentences after Lanfear (Silvie) tells her that Ishamael wants the sword and is a fool, I had always just suspected that the saidin part of the wards were his work, done later, just to make it harder for anyone to get at but himself. It might not be so, I admit, but post-Breaking, after the Stone is constructed, what male channeler is going to be allowed near, much less worked with to form a ward?
Kurt Lorey
732. Shimrod
Here's my Looney Theory of the Day:

Anybody ever consider Andor to be the site of Tarmon Gai'don?

Notice that most of the large armies are loosely grouped in an arc around Andor?

Rand's armies in Arad Doman/Cairhien/Illian, Lan's gathering army in Sheinar, Darlin's army in Tear, Fortunoa's Seanchan in Altara/Tarabon/Amadicia, and the Borderlander armies in Far Madding. And then, there's Mat and the Band of the Red Hand (Shen an Calhar). They will soon be re-combined near Caemlyn. Plus, there are still several Andoran armies in the field around Caemlyn.

I think the main gap is to the north-northwest on the Caralain Grass. Actually Rand has someone watching the Blightborder in Saldaea (Ituralde, if he stays), because large forces from the Blight could sweep through Saldaea, then down through the relative flatlands of the Caralain Grass to Andor.
Birgit
733. birgit
Moridin is the Dark's counterpart (counterforce?) to the Dragon, but where does Shadar Haran(sp) fit in?

Shaidar Haran is the DO's avatar.

just a little shocked that she had been what? oh yeah, SLEEPING with one of the Forsaken!

Morgase still doesn't know that he was a Forsaken.

Sweet clearly doesn't read the series for content though, or Aviendha's blouse would provide more coverage and less cleavage.

She shouldn't be wearing a wetlander dress anyway. She only did that in Caemlyn, but now she is wearing Aiel clothes again.

did the BA that was re-oathed in the cellars get executed or allowed to live and be reformed?

Talene was summoned by the BA Supreme Council but didn't go. The BA hunters wanted to hide her, but she fled from the Tower.

I seem to recall, somewhere, where Egwene was hovering in that In Between place that's black and full of dream-stars, how she identifies some of them as the dreams of people who live in worlds where the One Power doesn't exist, or at least where people can't channel it.

TAR is intersecting with all possible worlds, not the Dreamspace.

Also, if Mat did sound the Horn again, Birgitte could FINALLY find Gaidal!

Gaidal was spun out and is a child somewhere. He probably won't be summoned by the Horn.

and it seems to me that "Light's sakes!" is in there somewhere, too, and it's new...

The correct phrase is "For the Light's sake".

Has anyone else noticed that all of the really large scale screwy Bubbles of Evil we've seen lately have been centered around Mat?

Perrin visited that town with ghosts just before freeing Faile, Rand was near the incinerated soldier causing the TGS cover.


he essentially recognizes it and backs out of the negotiations with the SeaFolk because its influence has become too obvious to those involved.

No, he leaves because he is feeling claustrophobic in the ship cabin.

I think Tuon is the first person to recognize then actively resist the ta'veren pull successfully.

Eg once resisted his ta'veren pull by embracing saidar. Tuon doesn't believe in ta'veren although Thom explained it to her.

In order to go back 2 months (which I think is about the range of Asmodean's death)

It was longer than 2 months. According to the WoT-Chronology, Asmo died in Sept 999 NE and KoD ended in Apr 1000 NE.

how is it that Egwene was shielded and leashed so easily the first time if the damane were not linked when they shielded her.

The damane surprised Eg and collared her before she could react. Ny channeled and escaped.

The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it.

I don't think they used Callandor to make the Eye. They went away to create the Eye and wanted to come back to finish Callandor later. Because they all died creating the Eye someone else must have taken Callandor to the Stone, maybe without realizing that it wasn't finished yet.
Maiane Bakroeva
734. Isilel
The AS who invented the weave to detect flows of saidin was a DF?! I missed that. Very strange. It was a little suspicious that she could "invent" (now it looks that she was probably taught by a FemFS) such a weave without the access to a male channeler for study purposes, but it wouldn't be the first time in WoT.
Hm... was it to cozen the SAS into sending a delegation to the BT? To give them a false sense of security? Seems to be trading a huge advantage for little gain, though.

Speaking of the Forsaken, I have to say that Semirhage's arc was done quite well. It demonstrated the treachery of the DO/Moridin and their cruel sense of humor, since in the end it was all Semi's own fault. If she didn't stop to have a little fun... but of course they knew that she would.
OTOH the spanking/eating off the floor was ridiculous and totally unbelievable. I don't see why it was included. The whole notion of breaking Semi by disrespect was a good one, but it could have never worked so quickly _and_ it was unnecessary in the end.

I didn't like Graendal's though. Not because another reminder of Moridin's duplicity and deep game went amiss, but because Graendal's claim to intelligence fell very flat.
Only a numskull would feel secure in such an open lair when a channeling ta'veren with a big-ass sa'angreal was after her.
Once a foppish, foolish noble who clearly arrived by Travelling showed up, she should have left immediately.
Moreover, if Graendal was so clever, why did she forget to revert/inverse Compulsion weaves on her victims? Even Nyn would have been unable to do anything then.
Also, Rand marked her location on a map in a room that was accessible to lots of people for a whole night before he went after her and she didn't get the warning?!
Despite her ability to move in T'AR among other things and a strong reason to spy on Rand that way?

No, not impressed at all. Like Sammael's, her end was a complete disappointment.

Not that it was a victory for Rand - I imagine that damage to the Pattern outweighed any harm that Graendal could have done.

Even with retroactive explanations that DO preferred predictability to excellence in his upper servants (but then, whyever recruit Lanfear?), they
continue to prove themselves rather stupid and bumbling, on the whole. One has to wonder how they survived the War of the Power.
Ishydin is the only truly clever one and even he seems rather inefficient.

Re: Singing - doesn't Rand now have conscious access to all of LTT's memories? And didn't LTT have the Voice and know the Songs of Growing? As to Nym, I suspect that channelers can substitute for them, if not as efficiently. After all, didn't we see quite a few AS growing plants with the Power?
Richard Boye
735. sarcastro
Shimrod@732:
Here's my Looney Theory of the Day:

Anybody ever consider Andor to be the site of Tarmon Gai'don?

Notice that most of the large armies are loosely grouped in an arc around Andor?


Why yes, yes we have :)

Caemlyn: Camlaan (where Arthur fought his final battle against Mordred)[...].
- WOTFAQ: 3.05: Arthurian Legend

See also Battle of Camlaan, which segues neatly into Nicola's 'Three Women on a Boat' Foretelling, which is very Arthurian and matches one of Min's early viewings (sorta).

It seems like everything seems to be converging for the Final, er.. Last Battle near Caemlyn.
matt
736. mattyh
@713 rob

some interesting observations, especially mesaana's reason for joining the shadow vs verin.

re nacelle - i will always wonder if RJ had a complete list of black ajah already, or whether BS had to add some familiar names. if i had to guess, i would say perhaps nacelle had no other way to test her new discovery, and when the opportunity presented itself, she went for it. i guess in her mind, the weave could aid the shadow as much as the light.

@726 bigboy57

yeah there are a lot of inconsistencies like that, eg, one of the sisters referring to egwene as 'egwene sedai' instead of 'the amyrlin' or 'the mother'. note that other sisters refer to elaida as 'elaida', but never 'elaida sedai'. likewise for siuan sanche when she was amyrlin.

and when mesaana visited sheriam, her voice was described as rasping, where previously, she had always sounded like "crystal" and "chimes" to alviarin. why the change?

a few other quibbles like mat's vocab, "saidared", "homicidal" etc and perrin's perpetual internal monologue/wrestling (i am so over it lol). and everyone gritting their teeth all the time!

theory time!

i think the black ajah in the rebel camp who escaped probably travelled to the tower and informed their associates. but if every black sister passed a message to the tower black sisters in her 'heart', it would still be a long, slow process, as noted by alviarin's POV in KoD. we don't know exactly how many days between the rebel purge and the white tower purge, but perhaps it was long enough for the majority of black sisters therein to be informed.

i have entertained the thought of one of the black sisters at the rebel camp learning how to spin a hole through the eavesdropping ward used by the hall. maybe this cannot be detected if the weaves are inverted.

here's a theory - what if mesaana was masquerading as a tower sister pre-purge, and switched to being a novice or accepted during the purge! i am still leaning toward the idea that she fooled the oath rod (being chosen, not a darkfriend or black ajah).

these aes sedai totally need a 4th oath on the rod, 'i swear never to serve the dark one'. it would save a lot of trouble, and catch any accepted who are already darkfriends when they gain the shawl :)
Kurt Lorey
737. Shimrod
@735

Thanks sarcastro.

I had looked around the FAQ, but wasn't looking in the right place.
James Zema
738. Balthanon
660. Skip
@657 forkroot - I wonder if the nausea is caused from touching the One Power by a person who has the Saa from touching the True Power too long. So the feeling would be caused by Rand's attachment to Mord/Ishy. The timing is pretty close, but I'm not sure.

The nausea might just be a left over from the taint as well-- in addition to madness, the taint also causes corruption of the body. Rand probably accumulated more taint while he was cleansing saidin than he did during the entire three years of channeling prior to that, so I can easily see where the nausea would be worse afterwards. The fact that it seemed worse than usual at Ebou Dar does cast some doubt on that, but it might have been a reaction to using the Choedan Kal. (Hmm, allergic reaction to the One Power caused by the taint?)

677. brad21088
I just thought of something today: at the end when Rand says that if he's been reborn, maybe she (Ilyena) has been as well, do y'all think that's a hint (that Ilyena's reborn identity will be revealed) or am I just reading too much into that?

I don't think there's really any way to determine someone's reborn identity-- if you're really good at identifying patterns, it might be possible with reborn heroes, but I don't think other people will have the same tendencies.

Tomas went to visit family for his final hours, I'm assuming he agreed to take the same poison, or perhaps just do a salf-inflicted Sheathing the Blade.

Tomas couldn't swear on the Oath Rod, if he took poison as well, it was probably just to keep himself from going berserk when Verin died.

683. rothaar
Tuon isn't being pushed by ta'verenness. People never notice that as its happening.

Not true-- Egwene notices far before Rand ever touches the True Power. (The black aura doesn't have anything to do with his ta'veren directly, but the pushing was almost certainly ta'veren.) Mat and Perrin notice Rand's ta'veren tugging and Talmanes notices Mat's as well.

I went back to re-read Rand's final scene and noticed something I haven't seen commented on yet. He is said to remember hundreds or thousands of lives. Does this mean that he now has memories from all of the previous Dragons, not just LTT? Is he going to have the same sort of memory situation as Mat, now, with snippets from lots of lives blending together? Someone mentioned Birgitte, which I guess is a better analogy, but I didn't click into the fact that he is remembering thousands of lives now, for some reason. Really curious to see how this plays out in the next book.

I noted this one too-- I'll be interested in seeing how much of that he actually retains after this is finished.

692. Rand al'Todd
Is the meeting with Tuon the first time Rand actively TRIES to use his ta'veren nature in a negotiation? I know it has played a role many times, and he essentially recognizes it and backs out of the negotiations with the SeaFolk because its influence has become too obvious to those involved.

I don't think so, he might have even had a few minor attempts earlier in the book. He does comment on it to Cadsuane at least. For the Sea Folk negotiations, he didn't back out of those because he was worried about it being too obvious or for anything moral-- it was because the cabin triggered his claustrophobia and he had to get out of it.

Senchan prophecy about the DR being blind – combined with the prior visions of Mat giving up ‘half the light’ – somehow Mat will voluntarily give up one eye to restore Rand’s vision (because it has been said before that you have to be able to see your weaves to channel.

That would be interesting-- the first One Power transplant since the Age of Legends. :)

This corresponds to a range of between about 5 and 500 days, depending on the size of the manor. In order to go back 2 months (which I think is about the range of Asmodean's death), we would have to assume a manor size of around 120m (end to end from Rand's perspective).

Asmodean's death is I think at least 6 months in the past. They've gone through the endless summer, winter, and at least far enough into spring that crops should be coming up. That's probably anywhere between 6 to 9 months at this point.

694. GenghisCan
Is it just me or did Gawyn ratchet up a couple levels of awesomeness? He is most likely the best swordsman living as he could best a Warder who had beaten Lan 2 out of 7 times and another capable Warder at the same time. Pretty awesome.

I suspect Lan is still better-- you'll note in the description they said "when he was still willing to spar". That may well have been decades ago.

706. jamesedjones
So my question would be, wouldn't a sa'angreal of that power be better known after fighting a war that had raged for somewhere around a hundred years?

Given the limitations built into Callandor, I suspect it was created during the Breaking. There isn't any real reason to create a male sa'angreal that needs women before then.

Though actually, given that Lanfear knew of it, that probably isn't the case after all. It being only partially finished at the time of the Breaking is probably the best explanation.

Interesting thought related to this-- given what we know about healing a severed Aes Sedai and the cleansing of saidin, what if only a male Aes Sedai can create a female angreal/sa'angreal and only a female can create a male one? I could easily see that being possible.

708. krafka
Convenience or canon. As an aside, damane not being able to link to form a circle seems new. Of course, there are always likely to be a few extremely strong channelers like Alivia, but how is it that Egwene was shielded and leashed so easily the first time if the damane were not linked when they shielded her.

Egwene had just started channeling at that point. She was likely nowhere near as strong as she is now and off hand I don't think she was channeling when she was shielded either.

734. Isilel
The AS who invented the weave to detect flows of saidin was a DF?! I missed that. Very strange. It was a little suspicious that she could "invent" (now it looks that she was probably taught by a FemFS) such a weave without the access to a male channeler for study purposes, but it wouldn't be the first time in WoT.

As far as I can recall, detecting saidin wasn't something any of the female Forsaken thought was possible. The Aes Sedai of this age have done a lot that they never thought possible-- while Black Ajah have dark plans, they still partake in every day activities to and creating a weave to detect male channeling wasn't likely to do any damage to the Dark One. (At least not if they didn't know about Halima.)
F Shelley
739. FSS
I just finished my re-read lat night, and noticed that I missed a Min viewing of Nynaeve showing her weeping over a corpse (although others here caught it). Lan do you think? If so, when?
Ian Walker
740. Auspicium
@ 739 FFS

Back in tEotW Min had a viewing of Lan of seven ruined towers around his head and baby in a cradle with a sword. RJ later said that Min's viewings only reflect the future making it seem as if the baby is Lan's child. Even with this new viewing thrown in Lan could still live. It could easily be Rand she's mourning; "If you would live, you must die" and all that. Plus someone else previously mentioned another viewing (can't remember details) with Rand on a burial pyre. For me, Min's new viewing isn't enough to finalize a descision either way.
Henry Loose
741. schrodinger
Well, Min did say that she did not know what the viewing meant, so it is not certain that it will happen yet, it is only when she knows what the viewing means that it is definitely going to happen. (it could be that Lan would have died if Rand had not found laughter/tears because of the "his death would serve me well" Rand; now that Rand has his act together, maybe he will send reinforcements to the Gap as well as attacking elsewhere).
Arvid
742. SoneA
@738. Balthanon
I see that as a very possible explanation. That would also partially explain why the forsaken hasnt created angreals to themself. They are to afraid of each other to give the others greater power.
Or they just dont have the gift to create them, but seeing that Elayne got the gift for it ( and if i remember right, a lot of novices got it too, however not as strong)I dont think that is very likely


About LTT:s memorys, i personally think they were just a flash off insight¨. I dont think it will be brought up in the next book, but who knows ^^ more wierd things has happend in WoT =)
robyn halbert
743. lansmashiera
@739
I would like to believe Min saw Nyneave over Tam's dead body- the viewing occured when Rand was with Tam so it may have appeared when Rand was about to kill him,but then vanished as he fled through the gateway. It would explain why it vanished so quickly and why it was over Nyneave's head- she was close to Tam. I've only thought of this as I refuse to accept than Lan is going to die *sob*
Arvid
744. SoneA
So guys, anyone got any suggestions on how the last battle will be fought? it obviously isnt as we though.
Suggestions?
Wilson Grooms
745. Lost in my own mind
I think the body that Nyn is standing over is Rands, she will be there when he has to die at the Last Battle. I hope he will then be brought back to life in some way.
Maggie M
746. Eswana
Another question that's been plaguing me - given what we know about the Oath Rod shortening a sister's potential life span, and that both Nynaeve and Elayne are dead-set against it (and Egwene used to be, before she was Amrylin), will Egwene force Nynaeve and Elayne to swear the Oaths? Or will Nynaeve and Elayne refuse, and just become defacto members of of the Kin?
F Shelley
747. FSS
@744 - I dunno, a few years ago I speculated that the Last Battle would be fought mostly by Rand in Tel Aran Rhoid after he dies. I still stand by that. After this book and the realization that his soul's state has a direct impact on the Pattern itself, I think how he dies (and he feels at the time) are very important, but I still think Verin's explanation to Egwene in TGH about how TAR impacts all possible worlds at the same time will somehow be important to making sure the DO is back in his prison and the Pattern restored over it...
Doug LeBeau
748. dlebeau
Since Winter's Heart, I have believed that Nynaeve will definitely refuse to take the oaths. I don't know about Elayne.

Either circumstance could change though. In this book Nynaeve is only just becoming attached to any actual Aes Sedai around her.

Also, when Lan dies (and he will eventually regardless); will Nyn want to live another 600 years?

Elayne, who knows, probably also depends on Rand, since he could live a long time if he survives, even if only in TAR.
Darth Agilus
749. darth.agilus
My Looniest Theory for the 3 become 1, and beyond:

Contains responses for
Leighdb @388 re: TP not being part of the solution

Freelancer @401 re: TP and Moridin/Rand/X triumvurate impossibility

jrmywvr @718 DO vs Rand tainting food and weather -you are right and wrong.

Basically my theory assumes that the TP and the DO are essentially the same thing. So the three could be saidin, saidar, and the TP but is more likely Moridin, Rand, and the DO/TP.

Why Moridin? Well the whole bleeding personalities and prophesies about two becoming one (especially those that say one dies one lives). Why the DO? They flat out say he has to be touched and both Moridin and Rand can do so.

How does this make sense? Because the whole 3 becomes 1 is the key to the Last Battle the outcome of which I see as New Testament meets Piers Anthony’s On a Pale Horse - read on if you want to know why.

The prophesies don’t just say that Rand will die but that he must die. If that’s the case his death actually accomplishes something. His death has to impact the DO then and that would either be by placing him as jailer in his prison (lame) or making the DO physically manifested in Rand’s body so he can be destroyed (thank you Alivia).

How does the DO get absorbed by Rand against his will? He doesn’t. The DO wants to enter Rand. Why? Well in the AoL the DO was free but was unable to destroy the pattern. This means he was missing something. I believe he can only directly act on the world OR the Pattern through proxies. To unmake the pattern only the Dragon will work. That’s because he is the Fisher King AND the most massive ta’veren ever. So the DO isn’t actually acting on the world or the Pattern, he is acting on Rand, who in turn affects the two, the negative effects escalating as he becomes “harder” and going through the roof once he touches the TP and ultimately the DO hopes destroying eternity in the LB.

Also this ties in a bunch of other factors. Like Verin saying the battle isn’t what Rand thinks it is. That’s because its not a political/military battle. It’s a battle for Rand’s soul that has been waged since TGH. The Light is actually holding its own politically and militarily at this point, even gaining momentum. So how could RJ say the Light is hanging on the ropes, praying for a miracle in the 15th round? Because Rand is on the ropes. It also explains the importance of Rand learning to laugh (thanks Cads too bad you’re a hack). He needs to reconnect with his humanity. If he were just a general for a brawl that wouldn’t be so important. Even if a jerk won, the DO is still defeated and the pattern persists. However if the battle is over Rand’s soul and hinges on a decision he must make, then it is VITAL that he reconnects with his humanity. This also explains why its ok for the Forsaken to be backstabbing, counterproductive, and unable to accomplish anything meaningful. The DO only needs them to be powerful, cruel, and capable in order to drive Rand down the dark path. Thus they are required to torment him, cause chaos and confusion, hurt his friends, make him lose trust, but never to kill him. Note none of their instructions are ever about political or military issues, because they’re irrelevant.

Finally it ties up 2 key prophesies about the LB. First the whole Arthurian, 3 chicks in a boat, with Rands body. There are actually TWO of these. In Bair and Melaine’s they see “a scale tilting first one way then the other”. I think it means Rand in death is still fighting the LB and the outcome is in doubt. This would also change people’s interpretations of Nicola’s “The future teeters on the edge of a blade”. The second prophecy is the dark one Verin translates.

"Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?"

This is all the way from TGH but see how the “what hand?” theme was picked up again in TGS? So this means after Rand dies the LB continues as he is somehow faced with the choice of ending the pattern (death beyond dying) or not (one to life eternal.)

So what’s this “one to life eternal” choice and how does Rand live again? Well New Testament style Rand defeats Death (the Lord of the Grave) and becomes the new Lord of the Grave (the Piers Anthony tie in) – or more accurately the true Lord of the Dawn (rebirth). In this way he lives again as an immortal (eternal life).

I started developing this in book 2 but props to earlier posts that catch a piece of this too:
Balefiredjock @724 - that Rand will draw all of the TP and “cleanse” it and
birgit @587 - Rand’s death is the mechanism through which victory is achieved.

Whew! That was a keyboard full. Commence flaming.
Darth Agilus
750. darth.agilus
Lost in my own mind @745

I think Nyn is standing over Cadsuane's body after she has taught Rand and the Asha'man whatever it is they need to know. Mostly its just a hunch, but I don't think Rand's laughing is what Min's viewing meant. It was Cads' goal but I don't think that ties well with her teaching both Rand and the Asha'man. Frankly I think Cads was a major player in pushing Rand to the brink anyway, not the one responsible for making him laugh. That was all Rand. There is something else she needs to do.
Tony Zbaraschuk
751. tonyz
We do have a case in tGH where the Seanchan used six damane at once to shield an Aes Sedai; I had always assumed that they were linked (six damane max because they and their sul'dam were twelve in the link and a seventh would have pushed it to fourteen, which would have needed a man). But that was deduction, not statement, so maybe it really is the case that they don't know how to link.
Darth Agilus
752. darth.agilus
FSS @747

I like the way you think. Ties in well with my earlier post too. Course that probably just means its wrong. :)
Wilson Grooms
753. Aneid
The book overall was fine. Given that a new writer was giving his voice to the characters I did expect some differences. The best way to describe it would be that Robert Jordan was Mat, Cadsuane, Egwene et al, where as Brandon is writing what he has read and takes away from Robert Jordan’s writing and notes. The best word I can think of is incomplete. They felt like someone else was writing them rather than as someone who was them, hard to put my finger on. Mat took on the “Ron Weasly” sidekick lampoon archetype, perhaps this was how Brandon read him so that is how Brandon wrote him.

Egwene was my largest point of contention. She went from supergirl to super-duper-girl. The entire “stare down” piece was getting a bit over used ‘such and such Sedai looked at Egwene and Egwene met that stare and then arched her eyebrow (ala the Rock) and such and such Sedai turned her head no longer able to look Egwene in the eyes due to the huge amount of Awesomeness that emanated from the stare.’ And if it was not a stare down Egg’s was using then it was a verbal beat down she dispensed with against the woefully inept Tower Aes Sedai. I get the point that the Aes Sedai are in dire straights due to the world in chaos, the white tower split and the Amyrlin basically a cartoon type snidely whiplash, but come on man, I think the point was over played, not sure if that was Team Jordan or Jordan himself. One of the bright points to me in KoD was that it was not Egg’s that figured out Aran’Gar but rather Romanda using sound detective skills. The same as the Tower Aes Sedai hunting the Black Ajah, they took initiative and started to find and deal with Aes Sedai who did not seem to have stories that jived. Not Egg’s doing all the thinking for anyone who wore a shawl. This topped with the Brown Sister who started poking around about the 13th Depository and was exiled into Scroll Cataloging. Jeeze louise, the Egwene is Awesome thread just went absurdly wrong in that instance.

Speaking of absurd … Destroy all Raken and To’Raken no matter who it carried. I concede the point in order to preserve Traveling is a bitter reason to kill off Sisters although necessary, but Egg’s stated it was because the captured were better off dead. Wha!!! Then why free Damne and try to re-integrate them into non slave society. I understand that she told the Green Sedai that it was easier to kill them then try to set them free, but that did not stop Egg’s from setting her quarry free rather than having a good old fashioned Damne BBQ. Don’t the Sisters who were captured deserve a rescue attempt and an attempt to be brought back to the world? On the subject of the WT raid, wasn’t a Seanchan wearing a sword supposed to help Egg’s in this little battle, at least that was part of the “Dreamer Dream” … maybe I need to reread that prophecy, it might have had to do with something else completely different.

Anyhow, there were other small things that were off but the fact that people talked and issues got resolved because of the talking was well worth the issues I had.
Richard Boye
754. sarcastro
Aneid@753 -

"Don’t the Sisters who were captured deserve a rescue attempt and an attempt to be brought back to the world?"

From Egwene's POV, she saw two Aes Sedai who were utterly destroyed during their time as damane, plus, she was just about to crack herself in the months she was held captive. She hasn't met Alivia, she hasn't met Edesina or Teslyn. She did meet Pura and Mylen... and they didn't make it.

I would say that she made a battlefield decision that they do not have the time or resources to mount rescues, so it's better that they die quickly rather than endure a a lengthy duration, if not a lifetime, as a non-sapient object.

Her operating assumption is free the damane when possible, but if not possible... well, end it quickly, I guess. That's exactly what she told Adelorna.
Joanne
755. Joanne
Some more random observations…

I actually really liked Gawains story line (though not Gawain himself)
It is very similar to the classic tale of a knight in shining armor rushing off on his horse to save the princess (Egwene) imprisoned in a tower, and fighting with everyone who stands in his way.
A good demonstration of why this is not a good idea in a real situation. And I am happy he was put down by Gareth Bryne and Egwene.

Hopefully he has learned from it. (Or maybe Egwene will hook up with Galad after all… :-) )
Wilson Grooms
756. Aneid
754. sarcastro

~Stares at sarcastro then arches eyebrow~

I guess that only works for Egg’s. I suppose, that is a reasonable and articulate response you must not be Aes Sedai. Just seemed a bit of a stretch that some damane deserve to be given the opportunity to be helped and others do not. I did not have the other damane in mind Alavia and the two with Mat’s group. I was commenting only on what Egg’s provided just in the raid.
Wilson Grooms
757. The Sandman
Here's my personal theory on how things will end, or at least how the DO will be defeated for good: purification.

Create a sieve over the Bore using the One Power, similar to how saidin was cleansed. Then Rand uses his newfound connection to the TP to drag the DO through it, separating the DO's power from the corruption that is his actual mind. Once bereft of power, the DO's mind simply fades away as it no longer has an anchor to hold it together.
Doug LeBeau
758. dlebeau
Egwene did learn the stare down from the masters of the practice, the Wise Ones.
R B
759. MasterAlThor
I have gone through most of the post here. Wow people I am loving some of these theroies.

Some of you lurkers need to come on in to the rereads and drop knowledge. You would be most welcome.

Freelancer,
Good points on Callandor. I never thought of it being incomplete, but who put it in the stone? It was clearly warded with both halves of the power.

The Stone was built after the Breaking. One can only assume that there may have been at least one male channeler that may have had a well of pure saidin to help with the wards.

Wetlandernw,
You didn't like the darkside Rand? That was too bad. Really good stuff happend in those chapters. I know that you read it all and I know that you know that I know...what I am saying is that Rand had to go there so he could get here.

The only real problems that I had was the beginning of the Mat arc. That was hard to read, but then I kinda just settled into it.

Speaking of Mat, did anyone else catch Sanderson's Matspeak? That was cool once I got used to it. If you want a really good example of it look at the whole conversation with Verin.

I have a couple of questions for the audience.

1. Do you think that with the end of the series coming can Perrin regain his kewlness factor?

2. Who do you think the next Forsaken to die is? By whose hand?

3. What do you think the fallout will be from the White Tower attack for the Seanchan?

Now I will answer my own questions, but I still wanna here from my fellows in the peanut gallery. Or for those up north in the blight...the wampum in other words.

Perrin getting his coolness factor back better happen quickly, if it is going to happen at all. Put me down as nope it ain't gonna happen. He will do some cool stuff, he definitely has to have some MOAs but he will not be as cool as he was in the beginning of the series. That would be pre-Faile.

Well lets see, who is left? Messana, Demandred, Cydane, Moridin, Moghedien and Aran'gar. Well wih two books to go me thinks that half of this number is doomed. Doomed I tell ya! I think that Egwene will bring Messana to justice. Someone pointed out that Messana was dressed like a novice in the Forsaken meeting (good catch) so she may still be in the tower. Rand will prolly kill Cydane. She has it in for him. I don't know about the others. Here is to hoping their deaths are not off screen or lame like Graendal's.

As for the fallout from the attack on the White Tower. Tuon (I refuse on general principal to call her by that new name) messed up. She knows it too. Rand and the Aes Sadai will be paying them a visit in the next book. No bowing to the Crystal Throne.

That actually brings up another question. Didn't someone say that Semi was responsible for the Seanchan prophecies? Are the SP (Seanchan Prophecies) real or bunk?
Wilson Grooms
760. Aneid
759. MasterAlThor

As for the fallout from the attack on the White Tower. Tuon (I refuse on general principal to call her by that new name) messed up. She knows it too. Rand and the Aes Sadai will be paying them a visit in the next book. No bowing to the Crystal Throne.


I am not sure if the Seanchan Prophcies are Semi-constructed ~pun intended~. The Seanchan seem to have no issue with Foretelling or Prophecies, as shown with Tuon getting her future told to her by the damane on the boat ride to Ebou Dar. I read somewhere and I do not remember who stated it so I cannot give the quote, but in essence the Prophecies as they were originally stated were given the Empire’s take and spin thus the Dragon must bow before the Chrystal Throne might have been the Chrystal Thrown will bow to the Dragon, but that statement did not get Empire approved and was thus given the proper Empire wording.
Wilson Grooms
761. Chriscot
Re: the Black Ajah who escaped...I assumed that use of the stolen dream ter'angreal (which got names in this book - what were they called?) helped spread the word via Mesaana and others, so that those still in the Tower were able to flee.

Still worried about Mesaana being around, but she was on thin ice with the DO already, and the threat of the BA being revealed already had Shaidar Haran intervene once. So the DO has to be displeased that the Black has finally been unmasked.

It sort of defies belief though that Mesaana, if not some Black sisters, didn't raid the angreal storeroom. I guess we're lucky that Mesaana hadn't already come up with a way to abscond with the White Rod sa'angreal. (Vora's rod? Do we know who Vora was?) Speaking of which, does Siuan still have that?

If the 3 becoming one doesn't refer to standard linking, then I think it refers to Rand's 3 Ladies. Who already sorta became one during the Bonding sequence - "whatever happens to one in the Bond happens to all of them." Maybe something similar happens. Maybe Min's included in the Callandor circle, or maybe the 3 girls end up only counting as one, letting somebody extra into the link.

I don't actually think any of that's plausible, just speculating. Fact is, most of what we know of linking makes no sense to me. We learned in Knife of Dreams, for example, that a "regular" Ashaman and "regular" Aes Sedai, in a circle of two, can make a gateway bigger than Rand can, unaided. Why and how, when they still channel saidin and saidar individually, and each makes a gateway in a different fashion? Do they overlay the two gateway methods and make a double gate or something? That doesn't make sense.

Why is it that the biggest and most powerful uses of channeling involve men and women working together? This always implied, to me, that the powers mergend into One Power when men and women linked, but every example we've seen of linking (Winter's Heart onward) indicates that saidin and saidar remain separate and distinct...meaning, if a woman controls the circle, she's not very skilled with saidin, and if a man controls the circle, he's not very skilled with saidar.

So that's all weird. The implication, though, has always been that the DO was able to strike back against LTT and the 100 Companions b/c they used saidin alone - they weren't linked, and saidar wasn't involved. Everybody else has commented on LTT saying "they had to touch the DO", but LTT in that same comment says "they didn't help us, the seal was weak!" My read is not that they have to use the evil evil power of the DO, but that they have to be united, saidin and saidar. It wasn't just touching the DO that was responsible for the taint; everything we've been told is that the DO made a counterstrike. A strike enabled by the fact that the saidin only seals were not strong enough.

But, I think, saidin and saidar used together - the real One Power, not just half of it - will get the job done.
Michael Catapano
762. hoping
Overall, I liked tGS and would put it in the top group of books in the series along with tEotW, tFoH, tSR and tDR. Many great scenes and surprises.
I was a couple of hours into the book and I suddenly realized that this wasn’t RJ and that RJ was dead. I know this sounds silly. He’s been dead for two years, but I just felt intensely sad and almost tearful, like I was grieving for the first time. I’ve only known RJ thru his work but it became clear that he was here no more.
Having said that, I came to like the somewhat more spare and direct style. I was not a big fan of BS. I read Elantris and Mistborn and found them workmanlike, certainly not worth a re-read. I approached tGS with trepidation, but was pleasantly surprised.

Free
I see you have made it here.
TGS was not an E ticket but it was close and definitely worth the ride.

JEJ
I understand your feelings about Mat. As others have said, he did seem off. During the read, I attributed it to Mat missing his baby, worrying whether or not she even made it back to New Seanchan. We will see next year.

Verin
I have always loved Verin but her reasons for going black didn’t convince me. I also don’t know how she managed to essentially be on her own for 70 years without having heavy direction from her higher ups. I’ll re-read and see what I think.

Egwene
She continues to amaze. Her dinner with Elaida was masterful as well as rallying the novices. The scene with her fighting the raken made me flash on Galadriel, in the movie version, when Frodo offered her the ring, wonderful and terrible, hair and gown flowing.

Graendal and Semi
Both dead, I believe.
I’m OK with how quickly both were handled. Rand is now so far past any of the forsaken. He is able to dispatch any of them with a thought. Trollocs became cannon fodder in the Battle for the Two Rivers and the forsaken are now. His only battles now are with the Pattern, Moridin and the DO. I hope his battle with himself is over.

More later
I have only made it thru 200 comments but the pattern pulled me to put my two cents in now.
Rikka Cordin
763. Rikka
I hope someone can answer this quickly, if I had my books with me I'd be able to check and not have to ask at all :(

When did LTT first appear in Rand's head? If you could give me the book at the least, event/chapter would be bestest. I've skimmed WoT FAQ but haven't found it. Thanks ya'll :)
Maggie M
764. Eswana
Master Al'Thor @ 759:

Ditto on all the awesome new people commenting.

I'm betting Semirhage wasn't responsible for the existance of the Seanchan prophecies- remember, she's only been free from the Bore for about two years, and the prophecies Tuon recites seem to be culturally ingrained; ie, they've been around for ages, not just since Anath showed up. Semirhage may, however, been responbsible for the way Tuon understands certain prophecies.

But I still think they're wrong prophecies, or at least wrongly interpreted prophecies, because everything about Seanchan is like Randland gone wrong.

My guess is Cyndane will be the next one to kick it. Much of Towers of Midnight will focus on Mat rescuing Moiraine (Light send it so!) and Cyndane is a natural casualty of that, given her link with Moiraine from Finnland. Moghedian, too, is linked to Cyndane, so maybe she'll go down too? To be honest, I'd almost forgotten about Moghedian, since she seems so reduced in power, influence, and importance since she was controlled by Nyn/Eg/El in Salidar so long ago.

I'm hoping Perrin returns to uber-coolness during TG, as leader of the wolf attack and the Saldaens/Duopotamians. I miss cool Perrin. I hope he'll be back soon. As emo as he seemed in this book, I'm glad he had the self-realization to realize that he majorly screwed up. Now hopefully he can fix it.
James Zema
765. Balthanon
759. MasterAlThor
The Stone was built after the Breaking. One can only assume that there may have been at least one male channeler that may have had a well of pure saidin to help with the wards.

They may not have needed pure saidin for the wards truthfully-- even if the wards were tainted by saidin, what would that really do? They were just there as one half of a wall. There wasn't really the potential for anything to really happen due to the taint compared to the Ways, which were far more involved and were designed to grow and evolve over time.

That actually brings up another question. Didn't someone say that Semi was responsible for the Seanchan prophecies? Are the SP (Seanchan Prophecies) real or bunk?

I don't think Semirhage was responsible for the Prophecies on that side of the ocean-- she wasn't out long enough for them to be accepted as deeply as they are over there. If the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted, it was done long ago by a sycophant for the Empire. They could be real though-- Rand could bind the Seanchan to him by binding himself to them, though obviously not as deeply as Seanchan culture would demand.
Wilson Grooms
766. cps2195
I think Avi and Moraine are going to be the people that link with Rand using Callandor. I don't think Elayne will participate in any big battles related to TG (too busy having babies.) I can't see either a very pregnant or brand spanking new mama Elayne surrounded by Trollocs, fades and other shadowspawn throwing out lightning and fireballs.

Another thing: I think Aliva is going to be the one to kill Moridin. She is supposed to help Rand die according to Min's viewing but we also know (from the finns) that in order for Rand to live he must die. We know Rand and Moridin are linked (Rand channeling TP, Moridin favoring his hand) and in a way have become one. I could see Rand, Avi and Moraine linked through Callandor at SG with Aliva following behind, doing what they need to do to destroy or seal up the DO and Moridin going to destroy them and Aliva taking him out. That would fufill Min's viewing and the prophecy.
Michael Catapano
767. hoping
re sealing the DO
I don't think that sealing the DO with a combination of the three powers is in store for us. That would only lead to another stalemate and the DO could be re-discovered and plaque the world again. Since this is the Last Battle, the implication is that the DO is taken care of forever, either dead, if that is possible, or eliminated from this universe.

re fortuona
Hard to read and stay in the WoT world. I keep hearing my friends from Brooklyn discussing their business plans, "I'm gonna make a fortuna on dis heah"

Back to the comments
Wilson Grooms
768. jrmywvr
Re: Seanchan prophecies - From what I've found, the only background we have is the soldier who said that when Luthair got to the lands on the other side of the ocean, they already had a corrupt version of the prophecies. Perhaps the Seanchan prophecies are a mix of the two? Anyway, it's hard to speculate too much about their version as we've never actually seen a word of them. We only get to hear an interpretation of the prophecy, which may or may not be accurate.
R B
769. MasterAlThor
@749 darth.agilus,

I love your theory. Some of it seems a stretch but hey it's WoT. Like we haven't seen that before.

@753 Aneid

I also agree with your assessment of Egwene. I still think she gets the award for "compentency pornstar of the year", but the dumbing down of the most powerful women in the world was a bit much.

LOL at Semi-constructed.

@764 Rikka

I believe his first apperance was in TSR. Could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that is where we first encounter LTT.

@764 Eswana

You are the only other person I've seen that made mention of that besides myself. Perrin did mess up and realized it. How will he fix it though?
Darth Agilus
770. darth.agilus
MasterAlThor @759

Ditto on everyone saying Semi was locked up and couldn't have spun the Seanchan prophecies.

I think you are misremembering claims from Ishy, that he created the Seanchan people by ruinning Hawkwings relationship with the WT and sending his son across the sea. He is probably directly responsible for prophecies of the return, meant to cause chaos at this critical point. Possibly he twisted prophecies about the DR and LB to cause more chaos.
R B
771. MasterAlThor
767 hoping

ROFLMAO. That made my day. Thanks

765 Balthanon

They may not have needed pure saidin for the wards truthfully-- even if the wards were tainted by saidin, what would that really do? They were just there as one half of a wall. There wasn't really the potential for anything to really happen due to the taint compared to the Ways, which were far more involved and were designed to grow and evolve over time.


I am glad that you brought up the Ways. Yes the Ways are very involved, but a tainted ward would break down just that much quicker. IMO. So I think that saidin had to be clean in order to be used as a ward for Callandor.

Speaking about Callandor. Cadsuane says to Min that it can only be used properly in a circle of three. I have seen some of you posting that there will be three women and Rand. That would be incorrect. My thoughts are that Avi and Nyn/Cad/Moir/Egw could be the ones to use it. I put the names in order of most to least likely.
Wilson Grooms
772. The Sandman
Another odd thought I just had: Moridin/Ishy is actually the most likely of any of the Forsaken to betray the DO in the clutch.

Think about it for a second. Out of all of the Forsaken, he seems to be the only one who didn't come to the DO for purely selfish reasons; as his chat with Rand and what we already knew about Ishy's past implies, he joined the DO because he saw the DO's eventual victory as inevitable. As long as the Wheel keeps turning as it has, it's guaranteed that the DO will win at some point, and he only has to win once to end everything.

But if Rand can actually come up with some method to get rid of the DO forever (not merely resealing his prison, but actually killing him), Ishy's core assumption of the DO's victory becomes flawed. And if he figures that out, then there might just be a chance that he would choose to seek some small degree of redemption. At the very least, it would force him to choose which side to serve out of honest desire, and not mere fatalism.
nolan
773. topknot
@772 The Sandman

Interesting theory, isn't there a saying that "no one is so lost in the shadow that they cannot be redeemed."

@771 MasterAlThor

I thought that Calandor was tied to Saidin and therefore would require a male channaler to be in the link.
Kelly Madison
774. kellyexpo
great theory Sandman, that's a nice quote.
Darth Agilus
775. darth.agilus
Hoping @ 767 - see @749 and Balefirejock @742 for discussion of using all 3 powers to completely defeat the DO.

jrmywvr @768 - actually the Seanchan prophecy is the last page of the Epilogue. I'll speak to it shortly and its meaning for the is LTT real debate.

MasterAlThor @769 Thx! and @771 I think the 3 women and Rand posts refer to Nicola's and the WO's prophecies and no the instructions for Callandor.

Sandman @772 - I like it.
Wilson Grooms
776. Aneid
769. MasterAlThor

"compentency pornstar of the year"

~snicker~ I will leave my comment in my head where it will not terrify small children.

772. The Sandman

That is an interesting point, I had thought there was room for faulty logic on Elan's part, but I had not really delved into that particular exchange yet.

I had always thought Moggy was the one most likely to convert. She seems to have fear and loathing as her base emotions to go to the Dark. Much like Messy she always seemed a 2nd tier bad guy gravitating to more powerful Boss baddies. I have been curious to get a POV since her last POV where in essence she stated that if she lived though the vortx implosion she would fear nothing again. That statement is pretty profound for a woman who seemed to live in complete fear most of the time, or it could have been such an obvious line that it was a red herring, Jordan never sent readers on wild goose chases before. Considering she is mind f'ed (literally) my thought process seems to have debunked itself. I will sit down and shut up.
Wilson Grooms
777. rothaar
@400 I have been surprised not to see more speculation that Demandred is ruling Shara. Is there a reason this is discounted by the fanbase at large? Anyone? (I see that after this the idea gets a lot of play. Ooops..) I'm personally thinking Borderlanders, for various reasons, but I'd kindof prefer and out of left field reveal like Shara.

@405 You seem to be saying that because the sword wasn't dug up from under the Choedan Kal, it isn't Justice. Do I misunderstand your reasoning? I can see no connection between the two points. If this wasn't the logic you were going for, why are you so certain the sword isn't Justice?

@420 I think the Aes Sedei feel that someone attacking the Tower with the One Power puts them in danger of their lives (some *did* die, so they would have been able to fight back in this context. In a less extreme scenario, tho, you have a point.

@434 Demandred was allied with Semirhage and Mesaana, not Graendal. Also, Grandal's POV indicated that the Sharans (whatever the right word is) were a diversion for Sammael's benefit, tho it wasn't entirely conclusive. Remember that Graendal, last we saw her POV, was really wishing she knew what Demandred was up to, and never considers Shara. This might actually be the best evidence *against* him being in Shara, because Graendal is the only one we've seen to have had contact there, and she doesn't even consider it as a possibility.

I agree, however, that Masema could very well have been under Demandred's influence.

@459 Based on the POVs of the Black Ajah hunters before the Purge, it would seem that the ageless look comes from a physical tightening of the skin, so it shouldn't interfere with a Power based disguise. As for Mesaana not knowing what the Oath's would do, that seems unlikely. We have learned elsewhere (I think it was a Semirhage POV) that the Oath rod(s) were used to bind and mark criminals in the Age of Legends. The ageless look was intended to let everyone know that this person had committed a serious crime and had been bound against doing it again. Mesaana would have known this.

@465 I don't agree that Rand killing Ishamael with Callandor is the cause of their link, since it seems to date from their "Crossing the beams" encounter in Shadar Logoth. However, you have reminded me of another special feature of Callandor that doesn't seem to be mentioned in the FAQ. In the battle between Rand and Ishamael, doesn't Rand deflect a beam of balefire (splitting it in two) with Callandor? The only thing we've seen that can survive BF before is cuendillar, and Callandor doesn't have any similarities in appearance to cuendillar, and I believe but can't remember a specific instance in which we've seen *'angreal toasted by BF.

Random question: How likely is it that Rand's prohibition against killing women will return after his return to happy fuzzy sane land? Is it possible he will realize how ridiculous this is (at least applied to Forsaken types) and be able to, say, knock off Cyndane when it looks like shes about to kill Moiraine again (I made that up, but wouldn't it be a cool scene?)?
R B
778. MasterAlThor
topknot@773 I was speaking about just the women who will use it with him.

darth.agilus@775 Again I was just talking about Callandor and the women that would be with Rand when he used it again.

Sandman@772 Good one.


Seriously some of you guys need to join us in the bunker. Last time I checked we had Snickerdoodles, Dish and a host of beverages. Oh and I forgot, some crazy ass bacon bars from Portland. *scratches head*

Come on in.
Henry Loose
779. schrodinger
We'll definitely hit 800 today, 900 tomorrow. I'm so proud of us. With all the recent WoT activity, I got so excited and went and made my own Risk, WoT version... its a little bit bigger than the original Risk game, but so much cooler. I have to wait 'till Christmas break to test it out though, when my friends and I get back together from college. I think it would be a perfect addition to the things already in the bunker.
Darth Agilus
780. darth.agilus
MasterAlThor @778

*embarrasement* I've seen it referred to frequently but where is the bunker?
nolan
781. topknot
MasterAlThor@778

I was wondering if I was reading that correctly. Now I know I wasn't.
Wilson Grooms
782. cps2195
rothaar@777

I thought there was some evidence of Shara not playing a role in the last battle (maybe something RJ said? Resident WOT scholars? Brown Ajah sisters?) On other note it would be really dificult to introduce a whole new nation (empire?) at this late a stage.

I've always thought Shara would be a likely place for the shadow to be in control (I'm talking 1000's of year's of control.) They are completely isolated. I think they breed male channelers before killing them ( I think this is in the BBOWOT...but I lost my copy in a move year's ago) so their channelers would be especially strong. It would be the perfect place to create shadowspawn, develop an army for the DO and train the new dreadlords.

Still it seems odd that they would completely stay out of a battle that will determine the fate of exsistence. Maybe one of their prophecies tell's them to do just that?

Masteralthor@778

I'll gladly join everyone in the bunker if Subwoofer brings along some poutine. I'm salivating while my arteries are clogging at the the thought
R B
783. MasterAlThor
darh.agilus @780

the bunker is the reread post when our beloved Leigh comes back from her sebbatical.

Everyone is welocme. We discuss all kinds of things there. Be warned though. Mental excercises are fare du'jour.

We go off on tangents all the time. I just aspire to become a guru like Wetlandernw and Freelancer.
They know everything. Literally, everything. Someohters like Subwoofer, Isliel, forkroot, Rob Rob, thewindrose, and a few others will make you laugh until you pee your pants. They also bring the wood when it comes time to debate.

And a wonderful time is guaranteed for all
F Shelley
784. FSS
@783 - I can't remember the exact quote, but the information was at a book signing years ago, when RJ said the focus of the books were in Randland proper, not in Shara or Seanchan or anywhere else.

of course, that doesn't preclude a Sharan army marching across the Waste...
Wilson Grooms
785. Silvertip
@777: "I believe but can't remember a specific instance in which we've seen *'angreal toasted by BF." If indeed *angreal are proof against balefire, and the Callandor beam-splitting thing isn't just from the massive amounts of OP going through it, would this imply that Graendal's angreal (I forget if it's a ring or a bracelet) clattered to the ground somewhere at her former lair when Rand BF'ed the place? And is there for the taking?

@various: I don't see the DO being destroyed or some other permanent victory occurring. The DO was bound "at the moment of creation", rather than being some powerful being who revolted later (think Morgoth). He/she/it existing and imprisoned is a reality coeval with creation itself, and IMHO couldn't be undone without stopping the wheel. Evil as a reality cannot be destroyed, after all, not and leave a world in which humans act and make choices. Else how would we find and appreciate the Good?

Only in silence the word,
only in dark the light,
only in dying life:
bright the hawk's flight
on the empty sky.

(that's Ursula K. LeGuin, btw).
R B
786. MasterAlThor
cps2195 @782

Errr yeah. I'll make sure he does that.
*arches eyebrow at poutine*

Must be something they eat in the Blight (Canada)


And you already know your way around the bunker. Don't think that I haven't seen you around before.
Bill Reamy
787. BillinHI
auspicium @656 re Faolain et al in the BT: Thanks, that's why I need to do a real re-read.
Rob Munnelly
788. RobMRobM
I second the notion that we henceforth refer to Canada as the Blight. The far Northeast where Moridin's new home is can be Nova Scotia. Those from Montreal no doubt wear top knots, Torontonians have bells in their hair and those crazy Vancouverites and their fiery marriages....

Rob
j p
789. sps49
Freelancer @725-

Callandor's wards were made of both halves of the One Power. Early on, one of the Supergirls- I think- was walking around the wards (maybe in TAR?), able to sense that invisible parts were woven of saidin.

Although, if the Stone postdates the Breaking, I am wrong about untainted saidin being used.

Your @731- Aes Sedai of the AoL (or immediate post-AoL) would not trust the Stone to keep male channelers out; they know methods exist to sneak in.

Balthanon @738-

There is some way to recognize a reborn identity, as evinced by the wards around Callandor.
Darth Agilus
790. darth.agilus
Responding to
Freelancer @579
Wolfmage @391
Leighdb @388

on the "is LTT real" debate.

I'm sure you pro's have debated the entire point that Rands memories are proof LTT is real, ad nauseum. But still you gotta jump through some logic hoops to say despite these clearly proven effects of Rand understanding the AoL, LTT is still just Rand being crazy.

Add to that Semi's comment that LTT is probably real, which you've also probably debated. Frankly though why would she lie? It doesn't add anything to her first statement that he's already hearing voices.

Then we get to TGS, chock full of support for LTT being real.

First when confronting Cads after killing Semi, Rand says "I have seen balefire destroy cities (hmm proof that balefiring Graendal wasn't that big a deal?) ... If you call me a child, Cadsuane, then what are those of you who are thousands of years my junior?" - this is Rand and LTT beginning to integrate, Rand admitting he really has more than just an occassional memory about a given weave or Forsaken. On its own you might believe it is something like Moridin bleeding through or just plain crazy, but when added to other comments in the book that just doesn't hold up.

Second as some few have pointed out, before we even get to the pivotally misinterpreted "two men" line, we get - "It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made ... He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity." Ummm this seems pretty blatant. Rand is assimilating not only LTT but all his past lives at this point. He is becoming the penultimate Dragon, like Hawkwing or Brigit in TAR, completely aware and at peace with all previous lives, instead of fractured, one life bleeding into another. It hardly makes sense that this is just him getting more crazy at this point, right before LTT disappears.

Next there is the much disputed "they were not two men, and never had been." Freelancer and Wolfmage do a great job talking about this. I'll just add that this appears to be deliberately phrased with metaphysical implications. We don't get, "cause that was crazy and now I'm better" or "cause LTT was never real." The statement has more weight than that. Stretching it further "in his head" might also be deliberate since if LTT was real Rand will hear his voice everytime he speaks.

And just think about what that last sentence means if LTT was real "he let out a ... laugh ... It had been far too long."

Then we have the Seanchan prophecy - "when the many become one" clearly to me refering to the earlier assimilation of all the Dragon's lives. Also, "the blind man shall stand upon his own grave", if he is standing on his own grave than he must be both LTT and Rand - or better yet the fully assimilated Dragon.

In the face of all this, there just doesn't seem to be much direct support for LTT being a delusion. As a matter of fact, to defend that stance there is a lot of explaining away necessary to diffuse things like Rands knowledge/skills or Semi's statement. The need to do that further weakens the "not real" argument.

Seems like the argument against LTT being real mostly comes from people uncomfortable with suspending their disbelief, lacking a logical framework to make it believable. For them I'ld say think of it like one of Brigit's incarnations bleeding into another or like the Trinity, where God, Jesus, and the HS are all separate entitities but at the same time they are all just facets of one God. A paradox but one that Christians just have to accept. And since there's a lot of discussion about how RJ injects Christian concepts into the story it makes sense he would do it here.
Sydo Zandstra
791. Fiddler
I saw some people complaining about Perrin checking on the wagons, about 600 posts ago.

Personally, I didn't find that out of character for him. Perrin is of a practical sort, and as he stated in his thinking there, he can do something while being on the same spot, and still talk to people. I'm not really a fan of Perrin, but that was plausible to me.

Many more thoughts. But need to do some catching up, and most of it has probably already been said. ;)



@RobM, @788: You just declared Trollocs and Myrddraal to be more civil and clean than Randlanders. And better fluent at Randspeak too... ;)
Kurt Lorey
792. Shimrod
Regarding Rand's new sword.

Guaire Amalasan seems to have come from Arad Doman. Maybe the sword was once his?

IIRC, Rand did spend some time learning about false Dragons, either/both from books or from some Aes Sedai. Though, I'm sure the reference to it would be rather obscure.
Wilson Grooms
793. Aneid
788. RobMRobM

Now I can hear the Dark Ones Voice as the McKenzie Brothers

DEMANDRED WHAT NEWS FROM OAT ANA BOAT, AYE?

The beer here sucks aye and Lews Therin can take off.

WOULD YOU LIKE, BALEFIRE THOSE HOSERS ...

Anywho, thats how my mind works.
Matthew Smith
794. blocksmith
Masteralthor@759

I think Aneid@760 is on the right track...the variance in the prophecies is likely due to the age old idiom, he his in power writes the history books. I would not be surprised if the Sharans had a similarly different version than the others.

My personal choices are for Cyndane to be removed by a restored Moiraine...some poetic justice there. Can't help but hope for a Nyn-Mog reunion at which Mog is forever turned into a horse for Nyn to ride in T'A'R.

Overall, I have to agree with most commenters that the fallout will be generally bad Tuon and the Seanchan due to the WT raid. Yes the pick up Traveling and some damane, but they may have lost more than they acquired, they put the entire WT on notice/alert, and the action will likely encourage a united front from Rand/Eg in dealing with them...after Rand knows her anger.

Sandman@772

While reading the Rand/Mor dream sequence, I also got the impression that Mor/Ishy was weary of the whole conflict. A very intriguing development.

Please tell me that the bunker is stocked with numerous and varied well aged bottles Highlands, Speysides, and Islays.

And if Canada is the Blight, does that make Buffalo to Detroit the Blight-border?
R B
795. MasterAlThor
darth.agilus @790

I agree with your stance. But you do know that you might just have "roused the Dragon" right?

You will probably never convince Leigh, Free, or Wolf. Actually they may take it as a challenge to debunk your theory.

I pointed to some of those very same things when we talked about this in the reread.
Darth Agilus
796. darth.agilus
MasterAlThor @783 - Thanks I'll join ya!

Silvertip @785 - I'm not suggesting killing the DO ends evil. I'm in complete agreement, sadly, that evil is an inseparable part of existence. However I think humans do just fine generating evil on their own. Destroying the DO wouldn't change that, just remove an active instigator.

The possibility that the DO is part of creation is disturbing to the ultimate win hypothesis. However Rand could end up remaking the Pattern without the DO or the DO was outside of creation and was trapped by it, and so not integral to it. Like a fly in the ointment or Lord Foul I believe. That would also explain why the DO wants it destroyed. He was trapped by it and can only be free once its destroyed.
Matthew Smith
797. blocksmith
Edit last post at 794

Should have said "he who is in"

Damn typing!
R B
798. MasterAlThor
blocksmith @794

Yes, yes it does. *waves from 60mi north of Detroit*

Who said damane bbq?

That was a good one.

Oh yeah the bunker is stock with beverages from all around the world.
Doug LeBeau
799. dlebeau
Also, Leigh, I bow to your supreme awesomeness but I disagree that Elaida's fall was all that sudden. I liken it more to a balloon popping than Elaida being all sorts of crazy different from the previous books. Maybe on the reread, especially in Crown you will start to see just how freaking bonkers she is. It would not help having Egwene at the tower reminding everyone constantly of the failures the Tower had previously feared to discuss.

I think a lot of sisters in the tower must have been building up to a sufficient level of animus.

I am surprised we never really hear about Elaida's palace again but it's pretty clear that she was nutso from the start, whether that had to do with Fain or not is questionable. A lot of pressure had built up within the tower and likely some willful blindness. Egwene stripped that away.

Elaida could not shut her up at supper in front of so many sitters, she had to take the chance she could out talk Egwene. Elaida knew that Egwene had spent time with almost all of them and just shutting her up would cause more questions than Elaida giving Egwene a verbal beat down. We must remember, she really did think of Egwene as a stupid child while she thought of herself as the saviour of the light. She would not have assumed this little brat could outwit her until it was too late.
T C
800. Freelancer
birgit@733

That wasn't supposed to be a wetlander dress, but Sweet's interpretation of Wise One's garb. The dark bulky skirt and cotton blouse. I agree with the remainder of your responses in that comment, saw but didn't bother to speak to most of them. Well done.


darth.agilus@749

Umm, no. Victory is not gained by absorbing or assimilating evil. Ever. No matter how convoluted the setup and process, good doesn't win by taking in bad.


Aneid@753

Some might say that the Seanchan attack, occuring just when it did, paved the way for Egwene to take the Amyrlin Seat. Elaida was going to find a way to try and execute her, no question. So removing Elaida and giving Egwene the chance to put her awesome on pulled her up off of a deadly cliff. Not sure I believe it myself, but it's a possible interpretation of events, and less looney than some I've read recently.


Master Al'Thor@759

As I posted somewhere else, I believe that the saidin portion of the ward around Callandor was placed later by Ishamael. Lanfear commented on Ishamael's foolishness in wanting Callandor while she and Egwene talked in the Heart of the Stone.


Aneid@760

The Seanchan corruption of the prophecies were Ishamael's work, because they'd been in place for a long time. Couldn't have been Semirhage.


Rikka@763

The first inkling of past memories is in Rhuidean when Rand calls Moiraine "Little Sister". Later in the same chapter he can recall Ilyena's appearance. This is after Rand and Asmodean's fight, after the city is opened to all.


rothaar@777

Callandor is crystal. Presuming it to have prismatic qualities, and balefire being similar to a form of light energy, it's very reasonable to imagine the splitting of Ishamael's balefire in the Stone.
T C
801. Freelancer
Egads, double post. I've never done that on this site before.
Darth Agilus
802. darth.agilus
MasterAlThor @795 - LOL yes. I sadly realize there is little chance to convert anyone. This has apparently be a hotly debated topic for years. Also science tells us people make decisions and hold beliefs based on emotion and that reason is only a tool used to defend those beliefs. That's not a slight at anyone who disagrees with me, since I'm the same way - just less so ;)

However there is a chance, that someone's emotions were weak and they can be persuaded.
Ian Walker
803. Auspicium
The motion (or notion) to henceforth refer to Canada as the Blight has been seconded. All in favor?

@761 chriscot

Yeah I've always wondered whether no women joining in the sealing of the DO's prison was a great thing or a terrible thing. Either the backlash was only possible because one half of the TS was used and they should have joined in, or the backlash was inevitable and if the women had joined in they would be as mad as the male channelers (and likely no one would have survived that Breaking.) I'm honestly still torn.
Leslie Annis
804. Lannis
ACK! AHEM! I really don't think Canada's the Blight, ladies and gentlemen... especially if you consider the fact that--though cold half the year, yes--our weather is much more stable than that of the US. Tornadoes anyone?!

Watch out, Sub, they're trying to shove us into Trolloc territory..!

Though I agree, poutine is crappit... can't make me touch that with a ten foot pole... beaver tails, on the other hand... :D

"The bunker" is referring to the cuendillar bunker, where we chill on lawn chairs (or recliners) and rehash Leigh's lovely recap... I believe it surfaced during some controversial topics--where better to duck the fireworks than a cuendillar bunker, yes?
R B
805. MasterAlThor
Freelancer @800
I saw that post of your but I think that that scene doesn't give us enough to assume that Ishy put the wards up.

IIRC when Egwene was feeling around in T'A'R she got the impression that they (the wards) were woven together.

Could be wrong but now I am going to get my book and RAFO.
T C
806. Freelancer
darth.agilus@802

Whenever you propose to explain, define, or deconstruct faith by employing science, you err. I see people make decisions and adjust their beliefs based on reason and solid evidence quite regularly. It is to the critic only that such a statement seems valid.
Matthew Smith
807. blocksmith
Freelancer@800

Umm, no. Victory is not gained by absorbing or assimilating evil. Ever. No matter how convoluted the setup and process, good doesn't win by taking in bad.

Except for in Army of Darkness :).
R B
808. MasterAlThor
Lannis @804

What else would you call a country that is covered in snow for what 3/4 of the year?

Reread the chapters in EoTW that describe the Blight. Very similar to Canada. IMHO.

In reality we love you Canadians. Yes even those from Quebec. They aren't very nice, but we still love them. Exspecially the womens accents. Oh la la.

But you still live in the Blight.
Leslie Annis
809. Lannis
GEEZ! Subwoofer, where they? They're making motions and everything! :S

MasterAlThor, I stare you in the eye and arch an Egwene/Wise One eyebrow in your general direction, sir! ;)

EDIT: added winky face, and well, we're over 800... wonder if we'll bust this time? TSR #10 flashbacks begin...
Darth Agilus
810. darth.agilus
Freelancer @800 you make a good point. However I think you are generalizing too much. The Light can triumph if an individual, in this case Rand, absorbs DO/TP allowing it to manifest physically and be destroyed. That does not represent the entirety of the Light or good assimilating evil.

Also Rand has already "absorbed" evil, sort of, in cleansing the taint (hehe - really, seriously how many wet wipes did that take - yeah I went there). He drew it all through himself and then passed it through a cleanser. As Balefiredjock suggests @724 this maybe the same mechanism used to rid the world of the TP/DO. Perhaps Rand needs Moridin to have the strength to process the whole thing, thus 3 become one. Convoluted enough for you? :)
Wilson Grooms
811. alreadymadwith800reviews
Time for some theorycraft:

What if what Rand channeled wasn't the True Power, but something of the Creator?

Why didn't Verin just ask to be stilled to have her dark oaths removed?

I think Verin knows Mat won't be able to stay put for 50 (or even 30) days (perhaps Rand's ta'veren tugging?) and will have to open her letter.

Sheriam's "lie" about her hair color continues to strike me as stupidity in the way the oaths work. Allowing sarcasm is stupid, but was explained away with "intent." Answering a question before you know what it is is clearly not intended.

I'm confused by Egwene's list of three sisters who could be Mesaana. That list is sisters not on Verin's list who had disappeared or were taken. But earlier, she seems to know that exactly 40 were taken (including over two dozen full AS). Also, exactly sixty BA (plus twenty from the rebels) escape. But she includes Evanellein in this list whose disappearance only "strongly suggests" that she is BA. So, why doesn't she know if the three were captured, or they just disappeared?

Now that we have an exact count of BA, can we deduce any by process of elimination?
Arvid
812. SoneA
@790 and 795
I understand your arguments however :
What makes a personality?
If you would loose your memory and start anew, would you develop a new personality?
If you see it like this. The dragon, is one soul. However, the memories are the "personality" of the dragon. So in each era, i believe that he has a different personality. And all this depends on his memorys in that life.
I think LTT is memories from the last life The Dragon lived. So i think you could argue both. That infact all those memories is a seperately personality. Or you could say that it is the one and same. That it is Just memories.
And to further the argument,

I myself is not sure. I was pretty convinced by Leigh and Co. But after reading your post im no longer so sure about that
Wilson Grooms
813. daggers
So if Verin is a darkfriend... even if loosely... how come she wasn't crying after the portal stone incident like Ingtar was?
And it wasn't necessarily saidin woven in the ward with saidar couldn't it just be that half the saidar weaves were inverted?
Arvid
814. SoneA
@811
About what Rand channeled:
It has to be the DO. Just look at LTTs reaction.
" Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.
It is HIM
and then some further down the text
"What have you done? Lews Therin asked. Oh, Light. Better to have killed again than do this. . . . Oh, light. We are doomed"
Page 354 & 355
I think it is pretty clear that it is the true power
j p
815. sps49
Freelancer @800(!)-

Egwene's inspection of the wards in the Stone showed saidin and saidar woven together; it convinces me that the saidin is not a later overlay.

From THR ch. 27:
"Cautiously, she reached out with the Power, probing at whatever held and shielded the sword. Her probe touched—something—and stopped. She could sense which of the Five Powers had been used here. Air, and Fire, and Spirit. She could trace the intricate weave made by saidar, set with a strength that amazed her. There were gaps in that weave, spaces where her probe should slide through. When she tried, it was like fighting the strongest part of the weave head on. It hit her then, what she was trying to force a way through, and she let her probe vanish. Half that wall had been woven using saidar; the other half, the part she could not sense or touch, had been made with saidin."
Wilson Grooms
816. rothaar
@502 I'm still not convinced that Rand's TP channeling is as simple as drawing it through the DO. That whole scene was a setup to get him to that point and take that step. If anything, they DO used the connection with Moridin to facilitate. Maybe that was the only to make it work without more conscious choice on Rand's part?

Also, isn't it clear that the DO/Moridin *want* Rand to use as much BF as possible? Everything seems to point to this, also, being a setup. The DO doesn't care about the Forsaken, really. They aren't the most effective tools, especially the ones who have failed, and the damage Rand wielding the Choedan Kal could do to the Pattern was far more valuable to the DO. Of course, it would be kindof cool if it was a ta'veren twisting. Does that work in Tel'aran'rhiod? I would expect it to..

On that note: do we know for a fact that the Pattern is the DOs prison, or is that just a theory I heard and decided I really liked back in the day?

@593 Vera's sa'angreal ("that white rod thingy") was introduced when Siuan used it while healing Mat of the connection to the Shadar Logoth Dagger, way back when.
Wilson Grooms
817. In Like Flinn
I was truly impressed by the corollary that Sanderson draws between three of the main characters. The struggle for realization of the person they are meant to be.

Aviendha struggles with her own view of who she is until the moment of self-realization despite others already seeing it.

Egwene struggles for her identity as Amyrlin as much from within as from those around her.

Rand struggles to realize that he is not two people but one person and that the answer to dilemma is not to become something new but to hold on to who he is.

And in each case it is this realization that saves them. All of this is foreshadowed in the story of Shemerin and how she accepts what others say she is and thus becomes that rather than being who she is.

It is for little details like this that bring me back to this series and has me rereading it over and over. Truly Masterful.
Wilson Grooms
818. kab1
re: LTT. I don't have anything new to add on this, but my opinion is still that LTT's voice was real, meaning that Rand and LTT were two (real) personalities of the same soul. I was momentarily thrown by the "were not two men" line, but as I thought about it, I interpreted it as Free@579 did. However, I can't put things any more eloquently than Free@579, Wolf@391, and darth@790. Just saying which camp I'm in. as far as that goes, I'm confused by MasterAl'Thor@795- I thought Free and Wolf thought LTT was real?

concerning Callandor and Free's quote @725, I assumed that when they said "the sword must wait" they meant placing it in the Stone so the Dragon could retrive it someday (similar to how they were making the eye, important for future events, as known by foretellings/prophecies). Interesting questions of who brought it to the stone and who wove the wards around it- I think again an example of male and female AS working together. I don't think it would have been hard for AS to get a male AS in there if they wanted to, after all, the average person can't tell a man can channel just by looking at him.
Darth Agilus
819. darth.agilus
Freelancer @806 - sorry I forgot to insert my half joking, slightly self mocking face on that comment.

I love this kind of debate but it can be looong. So I'll just leave it at I agree with your point about religion and science.

However, since this is not religion, just opinions about a story, I think the science would hold up. Of course there are pretty large gaps in that particular scientific theory anyway.
Galen Brinn
820. GatheringStorm
Oi...the last time we got to 800 posts, we broke Tor.com. I hope Pablo is working overtime to keep this thing from snapping.

I'm still working on the book, since I didn't get it until last Friday. However, I've been keeping up with the comments (the spoilers didn't really spoil anything) and I have to say that there's a LOT of insight for something that was just a few hours old when the posts started pouring in.

Good going everyone...and when I've finished, I might be able to jump in with comments that hopefully haven't already been trampled to death.
Roger Powell
821. forkroot
Aneid@793
I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants!

Freelancer@800
Umm, no. Victory is not gained by absorbing or assimilating evil. Ever. No matter how convoluted the setup and process, good doesn't win by taking in bad.
You are overlooking the time when Honninscrave held/absorbed/whatever the Raver so that the Sandgorgon could kill him and rend the Raver.

Um.. wait... Oh darn! Wrong series :-)
R B
822. MasterAlThor
kab1 @818

I really don't know what Freelancer thinks anymore. I thought that he like Leigh believed that Lews Therin was just a way to deal with the stress.

Freelancer has the uncanny ability to argue both sides of an arguement. And that folks is what makes him a guru.

Also I apologize for not reading every one of the 800+ post.
Pete Pratt
823. PeteP
Rand developed the LTT personality to deal with the stress and problems of being the Dragon Reborn. Much like Nyn did not want to admit he could channel, Rand struggled with accepting his whole self, including the part of him that went insane and killed his wife.

BrS does a great job covering how as Rand more fully becomes the Dragon Reborn, his split personality is having greater problems. Only by accepting who he is (LTT) does he really allow himself to become one again.

So, LTT was a construct of Rand's memories combined with his fears of the power.
T C
824. Freelancer
darth.agilus@790

Yes well, I've been on the side of Lews Therin being real all along. One of the mild points on which Leigh and I differ. I only care to address one part of your comment, the totally OT part (the rest of you knew that was coming, didn't you?)
For them I'ld say think of it like one of Brigit's incarnations bleeding into another or like the Trinity, where God, Jesus, and the HS are all separate entitities but at the same time they are all just facets of one God. A paradox but one that Christians just have to accept.

It isn't really such a "you just have to believe" thing. Each human has within themselves a very clear example of the same thing. We are each flesh, mind, and spirit. Each has distinct purposes and needs, what I often refer to when teaching as appetites. The appetites of the flesh require no explanation in this crowd, I'd say. The appetites of the mind are knowledge, understanding, and challenges which demand those to overcome. The appetites of the spirit are those that most people forget to feed regularly; service to one's fellow man, reverence for the Creator, humility and such.

This internal trinity of man is represented rather vaguely in WoT, but it is there. Who would carry that mountain if they had no conscience? Why would the most powerful people on a planet name themselves (and rightly in the earlier age) Servants of All? Oh yes, it can be denied, it can be rejected, but it is no less the truth for that.
James Zema
825. Balthanon
789. sps49
Balthanon @738-

There is some way to recognize a reborn identity, as evinced by the wards around Callandor.


True enough-- though I think Rand is actually bound to the Wheel as a hero (per some of the comments by Artur Hawkwing and the others at Falme), so that might have made it easier. It might be possible with anyone though, just not feasible.

Once the series is finished, if they're in a state where it's feasible, I wonder if Harriet would be willing to publish a book with Robert Jordan's world notes. I'm sure there must be a lot of world building related to channelling, geography, people, the Age of Legends, etc... that were never used in the books.
nik hill
826. nikuk
so i cant really be bothered to read the 800 or so comments so ill just jump straight in with a question. it is strongly hinted at that rand is going to end up wielding callandor linked to two women. who are they going to be?
i got a few suggestions.
#1 - the two old aes sedai studying it
#2 - nynaeve and cadsuane (oooohhhhhh!!!!)
#3 - nynaeve and the ex-seanchan who is going to help him die (i forget the name)

so what do you think?
T C
827. Freelancer
Lannis@804

Hmm, come on down here to San Diego and tell me about stable weather. Been to Toronto, Nova Scotia, Calgary, Lake Louise and the northern Rockies, Vancouver. The Blight indeed, eh.


MasterAlThor@805

Admitted, no proof, and yes, Egwene's belief is that the two parts of the ward are interwoven, just the impression the scene gave me. Still, one has to ask the question. After the Breaking, in the nation most opposed to channelers of any stripe, who is going to work with a saidin user to place Callandor in the Heart of the Stone? Seems a bit unlikely.


blocksmith@807

If that's your choice of an exception, it proves my point. ;-p


amw@811

LTT went ballistic on Rand for having used it, I'd say that settles that it was the TP. Oh, I see SoneA has that already @814

Verin would have to explain why she was requesting to be stilled. That would cause her to violate the "hour of my death" clause, so she couldn't bring herself there.


kab1@818

The Aes Sedai at Paaren Disen couldn't place Callandor in the Stone. The Breaking had just begun at this point, the Stone hasn't been erected. So, what about the sword must wait? And again, there were no male Aes Sedai left long before the Stone was built.


MasterAlThor@822

I've reversed an opinion when it is shown incorrect, but I've never altered my position (opposing that of Leigh et al) that LTT was always real. If you have a comment from me that claims otherwise, I'll eat a bug.

Edit: And I don't accept the title guru. We have one, that is Leigh. We have a backup, Wetlandernw. I'm just this guy who likes a good book.
Dan Sparks
828. RedHanded
@824

We are each flesh, mind, and spirit. Each has distinct purposes and needs, what I often refer to when teaching as appetites. The appetites of the flesh require no explanation in this crowd, I'd say. The appetites of the mind are knowledge, understanding, and challenges which demand those to overcome. The appetites of the spirit are those that most people forget to feed regularly; service to one's fellow man, reverence for the Creator, humility and such.

Of course you realize that what you say only works if you believe that there are 3 different voices in your head telling you what to do. Also you have to believe that the spirit and mind are different in fact. There are a lot of if then's...
Jason Ferrante
829. Ferrante
i know this comment doesnt have anything to do with anything from TGS, but anyone got an idea on what Mat's destiny to "give up half the light of the world to save the world"? Does this mean that Mat will help kill Rand just like Alivia will?
R B
830. MasterAlThor
Freelancer @827

If it walks like a guru and it talks like a guru.....

You'll take your title and like it mister.
Wilson Grooms
831. stargazer
Some entertaining quotes I found while skimming back through earlier books, with new meanings now visible in light of TGS. I am continually amazed with how well Jordan set up this grand puzzle for us all.


"There are Darkfriends among the high as well as the low," Verin said smoothly. "The mighty give their souls to the Shadow as often as the weak." Ingtar scowled as if he did not want to think of that. --TGH chap 31

Double irony points on that one. ouch!

"Trust me, Min. I won't hurt you. I will cut off my arm before I hurt you." --LOC 49

And you thought just the "losing an arm" part was foreshadowing there...

Ituralde had a plan for every eventuality, short of the Dragon Reborn suddenly appearing in his camp. --KOD prologue

Ha! See what being lazy about contingency planning like that gets you, General? :-)
Wilson Grooms
832. rothaar
forkroot@696 I don't suppose you have a copy of this argument somewhere? A link or something? I am curious, because based on my own memory of the darkhound scene (I don't have the early books handy) and the assumptions I made doing my math, all three fit together fine. Now that you mention it, however, you are 100% right that T'A'R would screw up the math in an entirely unpredictable fashion.

That said, samadai@695 is right that we can't expect our logic of this world to hold precisely. I'm not convinced that my math means anything in this context, but I find it to be a useful guide.

Aye Aye Sedaie@704 Everything we have seen about balefire so far indicates that the "power" (amount of time erased) is directly tied to the size. This is like saying that it gets more intense as it gets bigger. The fact that this is completely whack compared to how actual physical things work is a strong indicator that my math is so much hot air in the wind, of course. But if I *were* to try and take into account the way BF seems to behave with regards to getting more powerful with larger area, I would actually come up with a *larger* amount of time erasure. I'd end up with truly ridiculous time frames that would put Graendal dead while still bound, in that case.

@708 From what I remember, Egwene was shielded before she had a chance to grab the power. Its a lot harder to shield someone already holding the power, and the more the harder it is.
Noneo Yourbusiness
833. Longtimefan
So it has been a week since this deliciously spoliery post went up and I was just feeling as though I had not added enough weight to the over 800 posts.

Nothing to say really, just an observation that it has been 7 days and 800 posts.

For anyone who may have skipped my posts since they are deep in there a recap on my nonsense.

As for the sword of light/three become one bit I am voting for Rand to link with Moiraine and Alvia. I have doubts that Elayne or Avehndia will be included because of the current and impending pregnancies. Even if Elayne has her babies would Rand risk her life in a link to channel against the DO in the final battle?

Also Hindersnap is not about zombies (they are not zombies, partial gouls maybe but not zombies) but about what happens when humans fall into the relm of the "shadow". During the day, when they are in the "Light" they are just regular people going about their daily lives. During the night when they are in the "Shadow" they are frenzied maniacs lashing out violently against all other people. They return to their "normal" state with the return of the light.

It is a foreshadowing of what is in store if the Dark One wins. It should be very disturbing as a preview.
Rob Munnelly
834. RobMRobM
@829. He's going to give up an eye as part of a bargain to get Moiraine out of Finnland. Note Egwene's vision of Mat bleeding from his face with hat pulled low over his eyes. Moiraine will then play a critical role in saving the world (as envisioned by a Min vision). Rob
Maggie M
835. Eswana
@everyone

If we get over 846 we'll be at a higher number than the twitching of TSR #10... and 99% of those posts will be thoughtful, intelligent additions, not just twitching and rickrolls!! Well done! I think the reason we broke the pretty tor.com that time was the insane amount of refreshing/reloading, not so much with the volume of comments. But maybe I'm wrong. Pablo?

nikuk @826:
I vote for option Three, Rand with Alivia (that's the Seanchan you're thinking of) and Nynaeve.

waaaay back up @518 Krafka made a number of good points, and I'll add my two copper pennies to one of them: Siuan and Leane's reduced strength (#4). Yes, I think it was key that both of them (especially Siuan) are at reduced strength because there were healed by a woman. Siuan's new lower standing among the SAS forced her to rely on herself more than ever before, and enabled her to manipulate the Salidar Six and others more effectively because they automatically associated her lowered strength with lower influence. I used to wish that she (or Nynaeve, or an Ashaman) would figure out why she was so limited, re-still her, and have a man re-heal her so she could be back to normal again.... but not anymore. Especially not now that she's bonded to Gareth. Stilling Siuan again, even temporarily, would be intensely horrible for both her and her almost-husband. Also, it might be nice for Siuan to come to terms with her limited power and rely on other things (friends, intelligence, Gareth) instead of just her standing as a powerful channeler.

Freelancer @827
I'm just this guy who likes a good book.
Your humility is quite becoming, good sir. How nice!
Jason Ferrante
836. Ferrante
@834
so really he's not giving up half the light of the entire world, just half the light of his?
Rob Munnelly
837. RobMRobM
@836. Yep.

@835. Siuan is going to be healed by Damer Flinn and I don't think she'll need to be re-stilled to do it. Just as in Salidar, when they asked Nyn to try again (unsuccessfully)- same thing but with successful results will happen when Siuan and Leane meet up with him and hear that he fixed stilled sisters back to full strength.

@833. Break it, break it, break it.

If you really want to go over a thousand, pick up my suggestion from earlier in the posts and try to identify who will be the characters discussed in the ToM Prologue.

or we can go back to our TDR suggestion and try to have each person rank the main characters from best to worst on a five point scale.

or we can re-introduce ourselves, a potentially appropriate suggestion following the recent influx of excellent posters in light of TGS-induced Tor registration.

I'm betting we could hit 2,000 by Leigh's next post.

@827. Yes, Free has been with me in the LTT is real camp since time immemorial. Still waiting for my re-read to decide whether our position is cooked in light of end of TGS.

Rob
Leslie Annis
838. Lannis
Yes, I have to say I'm impressed that our numbers are so high and we haven't gone sideways... yet... ;)

@ RobM... I'm don't have a prediction of who will be in the next prologue, but I have an idea of who I want to be in the next prologue:

MOIRAINE!

...

Can you picture it?! :D
Kev Hamm
839. cavynmaicl
forkroot@702
I disagree, and I think you will too once you read my why's, which I neglected to include last time as I was dealing with a time crunch. And don't get me wrong, I understand your points, but I believe the underlying assumption, that hiding as an AS would gain Mesaana something in her subterfuge. There are thousands more people in the tower than there are AS, and AS are documented quite heavily - it's how someone places another in their heirarchy. The level of difficulty in that would distract from more important matters, like making Sheriam regret her little finger. But I digress. Here's my thoughts:

1 - The White Tower functions as a university, rather than as a boarding school. There are tons of students, but even being in a class with professors that have undergrads doesn't mean you're recognized. And it's very easy to blend in as a student when merely walking the halls. So looking like a novice for any times she'd need to actually be walking about the tower is simple.

2 - The novices who'd see her would easily be brainwashed that they didn't, as we can presume that Mesaana at least knows some compulsion and could use it the same way that Moghedien did on the BA sisters who thought her a maid. This is mitigated by the fact that she doesn't need to go to the novice quarters, and in fact would only dress the way she does to check up on sisters.

3 - Given the recent division in the tower, the only people able to be in all quarters were Accepted and Novices, but Accepted tend to be known and are actively being groomed for an ajah. Seeing someone in an Accepted's dress could easily lead to situations that Mesaana would like to avoid - namely, running into a group of AS who could overwhelm her if they felt threatened or needed to. Remember, pretending to be an initiate of the tower is a crime they tend to enforce harshly.

4 - That said, the AS tend to dismiss those they see as less-than, and that includes novices. And given that not all AS teach novice classes, they wouldn't know, and had other things to deal with.

5 - Who says she has to appear as just one novice? The best mask of mirrors, as we know, stay close to the thing they are trying to hide, but if all she has to do is adjust her face, it's a simple change to do a multitude of different ways to avoid looking like "that novice who always travels alone in the tower".

6 - Lastly, she can travel and knows to invert her weaves all the time, and just needs to go around corners to disappear from wherever she was. By hiding in the group that even Egwene herself forgets matters (see the end when she's only looking at the 3 sister's as possibilities for who could be Mesaana, she refers to the list as "all the women in the tower" when it's merely the AS in the tower), and by hiding in the massive (especially now with the newly expanded open-novice-book-of-every-aged-women) bottom of that group, Mesaana easily has an in that will continue to be nearly impossible for the Tower to close.

So, while I wasn't specific enough in pointing out that she's hiding amongst, but has no real identity as it's not needed and in fact would impair her disguises to have only one, I'm confident Mesaana's hiding amongst the novices.
R B
840. MasterAlThor
I stand corrected. Free is in the real camp.

Why don't we just figure out were everyone stands.

People who say he is real:
Freelancer
RobMRobM
darth.agilus
kab1

Ones who think he is not:
Leigh
PeteP

Chime in people so we will know where you stand.

Winning side should get some kind of treat. Snickerdoodles anyone?
Sam Mickel
841. Samadai
RobM,

I have been with you and Free all along as well.

Not sure that I believe this but what the heck. Lots of people keep bringing up the 3's in this post. So what if Rand, Alivia, and Nynaeve form a circle with Callan'dor to close the Dark Ones prison. At the Same time Moridin, Cyndane, and Moghedian form a circle of the True Power. Rand through his link to Moridin manipulates him to use the true source to push the DO's influence back into his prison. Then The DO in his counterstroke takes the 3 Forsakens souls and kills Rand. this leaves Alivia and Nynaeve to take Rands Soul and put it in Moridins body which is looking more and more like Rands
Kev Hamm
842. cavynmaicl
MasterAlThor@840 - huh. Thankfully, he's gone.

But, well, now, he's just a memory, right? He was the real memories of a past real life, which sort of makes him real on his own. But Rand's mind gave a personality to those memories, and that personality used words to react to his own memories consistently within the character of LTT because his past life knew how he viewed the world. Just like you can remember how you act in your own memories.

So Rand created him, but that doesn't make him any more or less real. He's a memory of someone real.

He's real, in that his memories are of a real life.

He's not real because he's not living now, nor do LTT's memories live separately-while-concurrently with Rand.

So I think I'm in the camp with Leigh. Although I might just be camped in the middle ground.
Jason Ferrante
843. Ferrante
@838

I totally agree with you on the Moraine part. The first thing I did when I got the book was check the list of chapters to see if there was anything about the Tower of Genji. I hope the rescue with Mat, Thom, and Noal is all I have imagined it to be and more!!!

^^

Edit:
@840

I find myself in the group saying LTT was real, which is how Rand had memories of LTT's life. Remember when Rand was on top of Dragonmount and he said he had only drawn as much power as he was holding twice. Once when he cleansed saidin the other when he created Dragonmount.
Roger Powell
844. forkroot
cavynmaicl@839
There are a number of reasons to suspect that Mesaana is hiding as a sister. See the WOT Faq for an admittedly dated entry. I will say however that the evidence stops short of being conclusive. In my judgment it is still stronger than the arguments you brought up, however I compliment you in arguing your case well.

I assume that since RJ promised to reveal Mesaana's identity, Brandon will honor that; thus we are likely to get a definitive answer in one of the next two books.

MasterAlThor@840
You'll need a category for people like me who feel that the argument was over semantics. We have two items of undisputed canon: RJ's statement that Rand and LTT were one soul with two personalities and the statement at the end of TGS (which indicates to me that the personalities are now integrated). How "real" LTT is or was seems like a moot point.
Leslie Annis
845. Lannis
MasterAlThor @ 840: Re: LTT...

Well, I was in the "he's real" camp (I just thought it too cool for LTT to actually be speaking to Rand for it NOT to be true), but now that he's gone...?

I dunno anymore...

EDIT: 845...
Patrick Huff
846. pattack
LTT in my opinion is just like Mats ability to remember the thousands of lives he has lived. I don't recall when LTT first started acting out in Rands head, but it seems that Taveren might account for him.

On another note, it seems like maybe Tuon is taveren as well. It's hard to tell with Mat with her all the time, but her ability to survive all the assasination attemts, landing at Ebou Dar, escaping Suroths clutches, etc.
Maggie M
847. Eswana
Master Al'Thor et al:
I've always thought LTT is real. I don't think the end of TGS refutes that either, since I believe they (Rand and Lews Therin) finally merged completely, no longer at odds. He's real, and he's still there, just fully integrated into Rand.
James Zema
848. Balthanon
835. Eswana
I used to wish that she (or Nynaeve, or an Ashaman) would figure out why she was so limited, re-still her, and have a man re-heal her so she could be back to normal again.... but not anymore.

I suspect that would need to be an incredibly precise stilling-- if the severing weave didn't go through the exact same location as her last stilling then she would still have the area of resistance/weakness in her connection to the True Source. (I believe the primary reason that healing stilling/gentling by the same gender is because saidar attracts saidar and saidin attracts saidin.)
R B
849. MasterAlThor
One of the main reasons I believe that LTT is real is because like Mat, Rand has memories in his head. Unlike Mat, Rand has a voice that talks to him and tries to wrestle saidin from him.

No one else has that happen to them. Free pass me the bugs if I am wrong.
Eigor Maldonado
850. e-mann
Ok I read about 1/3 of the comments and I have to say that I agree with the majority of the readers. I LOVED THIS BOOK! It's not often that a book can make you sniffle, laugh out load, cringe, and have your heart racing.

Haven't read all the comments yet, so forgiveness if this has already been said:

Theory with the Aiel on a Prophesy regarding them saying that Rand would destroy them with the sword of peace (or something like that). After reading how Rand has been using them in Arad Doman as peace keepers and enforcers, they did not like it at all (to say the least) I theorize that the remnant of a remnant the Aiel will become is going to be like a universal police force.

Then again I could be a mad as Fain.

Anyway......
Wilson Grooms
851. Silvertip
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”

that said ...

Assuming we do get more insight into the nature of LTT in later books, I'm expecting an out-of-the-box resolution that doesn't fit neatly into "real" or "not real". The template is Verin: Was she Black Ajah or not? Well ... So is LTT "real" or not? I'm expecting something subtler to come out.
Wilson Grooms
852. Planeswalker
Oh... the LTT is real debate. hehehe *snickers*
Let the Lord of Choss rule! =)

Leigh, I think we're really going to the thousand mark on this one. Let's get to aCoS re-read already! hahaha peace

Btw, anybody wondering where Mierin's real body is? Is it lying somewhere in Finnland? I'm excited thinking Mat and co finding Lanfear's body there! *weeee*
Wilson Grooms
853. kab1
Freelancer@827 thanks, I wasn't too sure of the timeline. I didn't think it was the same AS as made the eye, but thought it may have been part of the overall plan (eye, stone, things the dragon would need, etc.), thus the "it had to wait line". Meaning we need to make the eye now, but someone will eventually need to make the stone and put Callandor in it- but maybe there were no Callandor prophecies yet, the breaking did last a hundred years.

What's the deal with Callandor now that the taint is gone? The taint won't be magnified, but does that fact that it lacks the standard safety buffer mean that one could draw too much of Saidin and burn out?

Since the Stone was also power built, I assumed that the AS which built the stone are the ones who placed Callandor in it (and Callandor was the reason they built the stone), but I could be way off on that. Would be interesting to know who built it (I searched around but couldn't find anything), those were some powerful AS!

I do think that they may have been able to find some men who could channel (young men not AS nor mad yet) to assist with the wards, based on the quote from Egwene about Saidin and Saidar being interwoven in the wards. However Free's theory about Ishy very well may be correct. I fear that these are the sorts of things we may never get definitive answers on!
T C
854. Freelancer
Folks, folks, folks...

cf my comments @582. Graendal's POV:
Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Granedal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities.

Indisputable. She is not Laras, she is not a novice, she is not a servant. She is an Aes Sedai.


RedHanded@828

You are free to make faith as difficult for yourself as you wish. That does not make the truth less simple than it is. When a desire crosses your mind (not moralizing about the brand of desire, could be any innocuous want), but then you stop yourself from taking action towards that desire for whatever reason, can you imagine that there are not in truth two different aspects of YOU at work? I've no wish to engage in a debate on this subject, but everyone's personal experience shows them the three aspects of their own self.


pattack@846

The extra memories Mat carries are not his own past lives. A little tidbit from the WOTFAQ:
Johannes Rydh reports that RJ answered this question in a post-WH Dromen & Demonen chat:
RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

And in case you don't believe the Creator, there is the timeline issue. Mat's own POV:
"Slices of other men's lives packed his head now, thousands of them, sometimes only a few hours, sometimes years altogether though in patches, memories of courts and combats stretching for well over a thousand years, from long before the Trolloc Wars to the final battle of Artur Hawkwing's rise. All his now, or they might as well be."
Well over a thousand years, let's call it 1500 to be generous, and if you were conservative and gave each person a short little 25-year lifespan, that's no more than 60 lives if they are back-to-back with no breaks in between. No way the hundreds of lives' worth of memories he has can be from his own soul's history.

Aaand, one more bit from Jordan:
No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.


Mat has since figured out that the 'Finn capture memories after people have left the tower by "bugging" them. He suspects currently that they can see through his eyes. Or, more accurately, through one eye. So he might have to lose that eye in order to surprise the 'Finn when they raid the tower for Moiraine's rescue.

There is no correlation between the Rand/Lews Therin connection and Mat's borrowed memories. Lews Therin is Rand, same soul, separate personalities and memories which, haltingly at first but finally on Dragonmount, have combined.
Wilson Grooms
855. daverg
why did Rand destroy the key

- was it to end the wheel turning
or
- did he figure out it was Lews Therin's
device controlling his mind?

or both?
Henry Loose
856. schrodinger
That would be fun to find out: what exactly went on after Moiraine and Lanfear went through the 'greal... we know that Lanfear died, but we don't know about Moiraine (the most proof we have that she's dead is Lan's bond, but we don't know how going to 'Finnland affects that bond... I assume that it would be similar to feeling the death of the person who went onto the other side, as the bond is affected by distance and the Finn are very far away). I think that Moiraine was able to kill Lanfear by breaking one of those agreements that the Finn have and thus, after doing so, was held captive... its up to Mat to go save her by breaking even more of the agreements.

Cheating the snakes and the foxes... good thing they've been practicing ;-).
Wilson Grooms
857. kab1
Freelancer @854 I like that theory about Mat's loss of an eye, I'd never heard that one before (this is the only board I go to, so maybe it's a common theory)
Jacy Clark
858. Amalisa
daggers@813

So if Verin is a darkfriend... even if loosely... how come she wasn't crying after the portal stone incident like Ingtar was?


Ingtar was Ingtar and Verin was Verin.

Ingtar was one who had gone to the Shadow because he thought a) the Shadow would win eventually and "it was better than oblivion" and b) he felt that the Borderlanders were fighting and dying for nothing. Then he was swept up in the Hunt for the Horn, saw it as his last chance for redemption. He believed that if he found the Horn of Valere and if he blew it and summoned the Heroes back to lead the assault on Shayol Ghul, it would save him from what he'd become. Apparently, the trip via the Portal Stone showed him otherwise, and that's why he cried.

Verin, on the other hand, didn't join the Shadow because she saw no hope. She joined the Shadow because she found herself in a situation where she was forced to, or die. She used that position to achieve something good and worthwhile. She had a purpose. She was also Aes Sedai which, to me, speaks of strong will. She also had had decades of walking that very fine line to bolster her sense of what was and what could be.

Even so, Verin was shaken by the journey through the Portal, by something that she saw - even if we don't know what it was.

And it wasn't necessarily saidin woven in the ward with saidar couldn't it just be that half the saidar weaves were inverted?


Which ward?
Wilson Grooms
859. AMMBD
Mat - tad off but ignored as new writer jitters. no big. zombie town? just a little joke by the Lord of the Grave. haha.

Rand - long overdue for crisis & sanity return. about time.

Tam & Morgause? god i hope not. She's better off with Tallenvor.

Nyn - fantastic. stands up to Rand while still making it clear she cares for HIM as HIM not just as zomg!DRAGONREBORN

Egwene - pure awesome. now if she can just get gawyn to grow up. . . .

Avi - FINALLY. jeesh. can't wait til she gets back.

Perrin - blech. used to like him, won't again til he pulls head out of arse.

Faile - yes, that Aielman did love you. yes, you used that to escape & he got killed. such is war. he made his choices.

WANT NEXT BOOK NOW. waaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaa
Drew Riley
860. drewoftherushes
Hello! Took a few days to finish the book, and it looks like it'll take me a few more to read all these comments. I'm about 200 in, and here's what I have to say so far (I'll edit this later if it's been mentioned) -

To those who think Graendal isn't dead -- she's dead. First of all, she hasn't played a REALLY big part so far. I can name about a hundred characters, literally, that have had more impact on the immediate plot. Secondly, think of it from Brandon's POV - as far as he can tell, he's put her to rest, in a way that personified Rand's new cunning and utilitarian philosophy. He must be thinking, if I produced Graendal's corpse or had Rand balefire Graendal, people would still think she's alive, so what's the point? But trust me, she's gone forever. What would be the point of bringing her back?

To those who think LTT is still separate -- you're wrong. Leigh's hypothesis was absolutely the correct one. Rand is telling us, the audience, that LTT was never around. Rand was AS CONVINCED as us, the audience, that LTT was real before. It's as good as Brandon saying it directly to us. And it just makes so much sense - as Rand began to embrace the memories, the voice grew less crazy, stopped fighting him, stopped fighting for control of saidin, etc. Rand IS LTT, that's all. LTT is not a separate being. I'm sure you're not convinced, but I am.

To those who think the DO gave Rand the TP - why the hell would he do that? He has the DR in a leash -- isn't that the goal? With the DR in a leash, he can destroy the world, destroy the pattern, reap chaos, grow lilies, do whatever he wants. What's the point of letting him go, for any reason? It's like if I want a cookie and someone hands it to me, and I say, no, I'm going to hide it and discover it for myself later. Just take the cookie. Rand channeling the TP is an unforeseen side effect of the Rand/Moridin connection. Whether or not Moridin or the DO knows Rand can channel the TP is the really important question. Again, I'm sure you're not convinced, but I am.

To those who think the DOs plan is for Rand to balefire the world out of existence, that doesn't make any sense. The Forsaken could do that just as easily. Why make Rand do it?

And finally, I don't know if anyone's brought this up, but are we supposed to understand that the Black Ajah in the tower escaped because of the dream ter'angreal Sheriam acquired for them? I haven't thought through completely how this would be possible but it seems likely. And since the original is missing and all the good duplicates, will this become a major problem for the tower, that the BA controls Tel'aran'rhiod instead of the good guys now?

Great discussion going on here - also great to see Leigh put jdj in his place. Hope to hear more!
Ross Hathaway
861. RossH
831 stargazer - thanks for the quotes; the amount of planning put into this series is mind boggeling.

817 In Like Flinn - yeah man. I agree way much.

I have always thought of Lews Therin as real, but without a real definition of what that means, it is sort of hard to debate.

Interesting tidbit: my sister's friend knows a dude with split personalities, and he said that one personality of his his evil, but the others ganged up on it and killed it. He no longer has that personality. Some personalities can know things or have memories that others within the same body do not. I don't remember much more from psychology, but there's some interesting stuff about that.

I believe one of the eyes on Mat's medallion is an Aes Sedai symbol. That doesn't relate to much, but maybe it will relate to the "giving up the eye of his that the finn can see out of" thing.

Yay tidbits
Julian Augustus
862. Alisonwonderland
Chriscot@668 and pattack@687

Egwene's dream is in Chapter 10 of aCoS. My original explanation was strictly from memory, but the actual dream goes something like this:

Logain, laughing, steps over something onto a black stone. It looks like Rand's body, but when she touches his face it breaks like paper puppet.
Wilson Grooms
863. Aye Aye Sedai
@RobM, @788 IF Canada is the Blight is then Wasilla the new Shayol Guol? and that makes Sara Palin either Shaidar Haran or the Dark One . Ewww - thought Hallowwen was over - now i'm really going to have nightmares.

@832 rothar Aye Aye Sedaie@704 Everything we have seen about balefire so far indicates that the "power" (amount of time erased) is directly tied to the size. This is like saying that it gets more intense as it gets bigger. The fact that this is completely whack compared to how actual physical things work is a strong indicator that my math is so much hot air in the wind, of course. But if I *were* to try and take into account the way BF seems to behave with regards to getting more powerful with larger area, I would actually come up with a *larger* amount of time erasure. I'd end up with truly ridiculous time frames that would put Graendal dead while still bound, in that case.

Almost but the power has to be squared as the radius gets larger - so the power has to be double squared as the circles area increases for the same effect. Thus the effective power at any point is effectively reduced as a 4th power effect. SO in essence the huge amounts of power Rand calls upon are diluted over the large area and result in a much much smaller time backstep than if that same power was focused over a very small area. This would be similar to the dissipation of light or radiation over distance.


This ones for you Leigh :)
Any one hear the news report that chronic spanking "caused" a drop in IQ? Of course then then went on to say that this was only a correlated observance - in so much as there is a higher incidence of death among people in a hospital than in the general population - implying that hospitals cause higher deaths. - But they did say that individuals that had been routinely spanked tended to be aggressive, and have emotional issues in life - sound like any characters we know? (of course they did not answer the question if the characters were prone to particular issues that this caused them to be spanked more frequently :)
Roger Powell
864. forkroot
schrodinger@856
we know that Lanfear died, but we don't know about Moiraine (the most proof we have that she's dead is Lan's bond, but we don't know how going to 'Finnland affects that bond... I assume that it would be similar to feeling the death of the person who went onto the other side, as the bond is affected by distance and the Finn are very far away).
Going to Finnland in and of itself doesn't break the bond. We know that because Moiraine went through the doorway in Tear and Lan did not sense the bond to be broken. Granted she went through a different doorway this time (the Eelfinn, not the Aelfinn) but it is unlikely that would make a difference.

I think the difference was that the doorway in Tear remained intact, whereas the ter'angreal at the docks melted. I suspect the loss of the doorway was what snapped the bond.
Sam Mickel
865. Samadai
ok a question that has been bugging me since my first read of tGS.
How did Cadsuane know that Tam was with Perrin? Is Berelains AesSedai advisor Annoura part of her camp? or who else is her spy and how do they get the info to her? If she found out that Tam was with Perrin why doesn't she know where they are?
Wilson Grooms
866. Wolfger
Perrin has some Wise Ones with him (I do not have the book nearby to check which ones) but they could have talked to the Dreamwalker Wise Ones at Rand's camp. Cadsuane and the RandCamp Wise Ones were planning it all together.
Lindy Brown
867. lbrown
@ 380. Amalisa
No, I took that into consideration. I also took into consideration Mesaana's absolute terror at being confronted by the Dark One, and Alviarin's own observation that the woman was tantalizingly familiar. I'm not sure that anyone's weave - including one of the Forsaken's - would have stood up to the kind of fear that Mesaana was experiencing.


It could be that Mesaana was using a small weave of illusion to alter her appearance slightly (so it would be easier to mantain) when she was masquerading as an Aes Sedai. When Alviaron sees her here, she is seeing what Mesaana really looks like. But it reminds her of Mesaana's alter ego because the faces are similar.
Wilson Grooms
868. Atergoboy
Haven't read the book yet, need to get to the store....

I just want to say something about all the Mat comments. If there is something wrong with the way Mat was written, it got through a bunch of editors, including RJ's wife. They were apparently happy (or at least content) with the way Mat came off in the book.
Lindy Brown
869. lbrown
@599. blocksmith
lbrown@532
After reading Graendal being BFed, I had a similar reaction. I had hoped for an Asmo-like death scene...flash to diaphonously gowned G lying on a couch immediately after her meeting with Rand's messenger (by the way, very similar w/o the bleeding to Sammael's messenger also used to manipulate G) where she realizes she is found by LTT/Rand, now has to move her base of operations, and is trying to decide which of her pretties will make the trip when the wall in front of her dissolves and she has just enough time to realize she doesn't need to worry about wearing clean underwear.


LOL! That would have been perfect. That would've made Graendal's death complete to me.
Wilson Grooms
870. daggers
@858 Amalisa
oops sorry didn't realize I hadn't specified... I was referring to the warding on Callandor when it was floating in the stone of tear. Did Rand or Ishmael ever say part of the ward was saidin? I think it's plausible that the weaves that Egwene couldn't see could've just been inverted saidar and since at the time she didn't know it was possible to invert your weaves she would have jumped to the opinion that it was saidin and not saidar.
Wilson Grooms
871. Aye said I
I admit I have not read all 870 posts preceding mine (though I will over the next few days), but is anyone besides me annoyed that that we were apparently robbed of watching the moment when Perrin and Faile learned who Morgase is?
Wilson Grooms
872. Aye said I
599 Blocksmith -- You nailed it, friend! If Graendal is really gone, yours is the better version.

(But I loved the book anyway.)
Wilson Grooms
873. Keztra
Freelancer@731 Their is no reason not to think she died. Rand continued squeezing after he snapped during those few seconds when he was desperately searching for something, during those few seconds when he's found the TP and LTT is telling him to throw it away, right up to the point when the Sad Bracelets shatter. The Backbone of the Theory is that LTT very adamantly adds Min to the list in a later chapter, so some part of Rand knows he killed her.

Eswana@835, RobMRobM@837 I bet that if Flynn further healed Siuan and Leane (not having them be re-stilled first) that their power would increase half again from what they originally had before stilling.


As for Egwene's Dream of Mat:
"Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps."

The two Aes Sedai are: Moraine, and Verin. I always knew the first was Moraine, I just didn't know who the second would turn out to be.
Lindy Brown
874. lbrown
According to the Wheel of Time Timeline located here: http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl0998.htm (which I absolutely love)

Asmodean died September 21, 999 NE

The end of KOD was Apr 22, 1000 NE

So, depending on how long the events in tGS took (I'm thinking no longer than 1 month), it's a gap of 7-8 months between Asmodean's death and Graendal's balefiring. Although I would love to see Asmodean back, I think if Balefire was loosed to erase someone's thread from the pattern for the last 7-8 months, the Pattern really would be unraveling.
j p
875. sps49
drewoftherushes @860-

LTT- It appears inescapable to me that Rand has finally integrated his LTT memories, although we will see if any personality has also blended with Rand.

Rand and the TP- My feeling is that Semirhage was too unreliable to entrust with the Dragon Reborn (she had just tried to kill him, against orders), the male a'dam was unreliable (you must share with another or eventually lose the battle for control), and corrupting Rand with the addictive and evil TP had a good chance of working- it came close, and I still worry about the next books.

The TBA were probably warned by a low level non-AS Darkfriend. Secrets are always ephemeral, especially in wartime.
Wilson Grooms
876. L.R.K
Loved the book. :)

Some random thoughts/impressions.

Poor Hurin. I do hope he gets an apology from Rand (but also - what I think he'd value far more - a chance to chat and remenisce). But I hope the Borderlanders receive none - they do not deserve any.

"Tell them that it will not be long before the Dragon Reborn rides to battle at Shayol Ghul. If they wish to return to their posts with honor, I will provide them with transport back to the Blight. Otherwise, they can remain here, hiding. Let them explain to their children and grandchildren why they were hundreds of leagues away from their posts when the Dark One was slain and the prophecies fulfilled.

Exactly. Needed to be said. Also, I confess I've started to find them rather annoying - traipsing around the countryside, tagging along their 13 Aes Sedai, being tiresomely mysterious... Indeed, the revelation of their secret had better be good after dragging it out so long! Not just heavy compulsion used by Demandred or something like that... Does he use Compulsion much anyway? It doesn't quite feel like his style, but please enlighten me if I'm wrong! (And I really, sincerely mean that - it would be much appreciated.:))

Something else that needed to be said:

"I've known men who, when challenged, always turn to their fists for answers. I've never liked Aes Sedai; I was happy to be rid of them when I returned to my farm. A bully is a bully whether she uses the strength of her arm or other means.

Indeed! Possibly my favourite lines in the entire book. I love Tam al'Thor - I wonder, is there anyone who does not love him? :) And then of course:

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want."
The room fell still.

At last! Both these statements are simple, to the point, unanswerable.

I - like so many others - appreciated the increased communication over all. Though in the case of Siuan's revelations to Gareth Bryne, that was not the sort of thing to confide in anyone or everyone, nor did she know him well enough to do so earlier. So my feelings were not "Finally! She's telling him!", but rather it is proof of how implicitly she trusts him, and so the start of all the "Awww!"-moments between them. (Anyway, they have always been one of my favourite couples.)

Perrin - I wonder if he is all wrong in crediting his battle rage to his lupine (?) nature, and rather, what he must learn is to let go, as Hopper (glad to see him again!) was trying to teach him. Or what was Hopper trying to teach him? Any ideas? I was pleasantly surprised that Faile seems actually to be quite - reasonable, even in the matter of his spending that night in Berelain's tent, which I would never have believed; is she growing up, and is it possible that she may yet become - bearable? Not her greatest fan, really, and was looking forward to her passages with trepidation. (The night in Berelain's tent is one of my major annoyances - because naturally she should have let Perrin just freeze to death in the snow - that would have been so preferable! Sniff!)

I know a few (but I think not many?) have been disappointed in the Rand-Tam reunion scene. But what else could have happened? Rand sees him, exclaims "Daddy!" and falls, sobbing, on his neck... Actually when I realised the scene was approaching, I started to feel worried, because such a scenario just did not seem - right. No doubt, had it been written that way, I would have been all right with it, since the writing was so especially brilliant there, that it would have swept me along. But I'm glad it didn't - it was much better this way.

And my vote:
Lews Therin - real.
Greg Bloom
877. MuleHeadedLummox
@865 Samadai

I just assumed that she had already Traveled to the Two Rivers looking for Tam, and was told that he was with Perrin.

As to whether LTT was real or not, I think he was a manifestation of the taint/past memories bubbling up in Rand's head. Rand at first tried to ignore the past memories (although whether they were caused by the taint or by he Pattern requiring the Dragon to remember how he failed to seal the Dark One away I'm not sure.) The LTT personality developed to allow him to deal with them without having to acknowledge them as 'his' memories. I felt that the taint manifested a sort of dissociative disorder in Rand, and that when he finally acknowledged the problems that had led to the split personality in the first place, it was resolved.

I don't think the dream Ter'angreal were used to notify the BA in the tower that Egwene knew what was up. They were stolen (and probably given to Mesaana) to disrupt the rebel hall and keep them out of contact with Egwene.
T C
878. Freelancer
daverg@855

Neither. First, Rand didn't destroy the key. He blew up the male Choeden Kal sa'angreal itself. And he did it for neither of the reasons you posit, but because it was necessary for him in his cathartic moment of return to humanity. He realized that it would not be the tool used by him at Tar'mon Gai'don, because it isn't mentioned in the prophecies, where Callandor is. It is too powerful to be wielded safely when the entire world is at stake, so he took it out of the equation. And while he needed it to counterbalance the temptation of the True Power, its own temptation terrorized him as well. The call of the TP may be an internal battle he must still fight, or he may have destroyed the link at the same time. I rather suspect the former, with two volumes remaining.


Keztra@873
Their is no reason not to think she died.
You mean other than the fact that she didn't die? Find something in that scene that indicates her no longer living. Min is gasping and sobbing, before Rand kills Semirhage, immediately after the Domination band is blown off of his neck. There is no time given to the possibility of him Healing her. Since she is still breathing before the balefire death of Semirhage, there's no possibility of a Mat/Aviendha/Asmodean recovery.

The addition of Min to the list is understood through the title of the chapter, The Last That Could be Done. Rand has lost all feeling, all ability to be human at this point.
"It is done," Rand whispered.
"What?" Min asked, coughing again.
"The last that could be done to me," he said, surprised at his own calmness. "They have taken everything from me now."
In the emotional sense, he has lost Min as surely as if she had died. But she did not. He is beyond pain, beyond despair, but beyond caring as well. Rand has been heading for this moment since the trollock attack in the Stone of Tear, when he tried to use Callandor to resuscitate the dead little girl. Since he began listing names of women who died because of him.


But back to Mat...
Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.
Somewhere along the way he determines that his left eye provides the 'Finn with the link to his memories.
Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.
Mat's left eye gone, taking away the 'Finn's advantage and quite possibly necessary for him to get into the Tower of Ghenjei yet again.
Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended...She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.
No question one is Moiraine. I have a hard time thinking the other is Verin, as she's gone, but until he knows that he might find himself wanting to obey whatever she wrote in that letter, which might preclude him from joining in the Moiraine rescue.
"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!"
At first glance this seems no more information than the others. But odd that the 'Finn tell him a prophecy that will be fulfilled when he bests them. Now, how is saving Moiraine going to save the world? Rand has regained laughter on Dragonmount. He needs to regain tears. Who heads that list of dead women he recites? When Moiraine is returned to him, it will end the list, and give him back tears. Then he will be ready.

I had thought Moiraine's return would bring him laughter, so I had that part wrong, but I knew she wouldn't be coming back in this book because she would be the last part of him becoming the right him to face the Last Battle.
Wilson Grooms
879. stargazer
@855 daverg and @878 Freelancer:

Free's right - Min didn't die. This is explicitly addressed in a later scene were LTT adds "Elmindreda Farshaw" to his/their mental chant of the slain. Rand objects, saying that she didn't die, she was still alive. Note, not that she'd died but was back alive, that she didn't die at all. Rand is well aware of what happened to Avi, Mat, and the rest of the gang - I think he'd know full well if that was what had happened this time too.
Wilson Grooms
880. Planeswalker
@864 forkroot

i thought moiraine passed the bond to myrelle before it was cut off... so even if moiraine comes back, the bond won't be there anymore.

@873 Keztra/@878 Freelancer

its true. min died for a few seconds. when rand used balefire to semi while still choking min and only after opening his eyes he saw min alive. yep i agree, unless otherwise BS contradicts, definitely min died there. ltt including her on the list only confirms it, thats the main reason why i agree. but Freelancer's opinion is also plausible. although in hindsight, like what Free said 'BEFORE semi got bfed, min is still alive'. but when semi got bfed, min might have died at that moment. think about it.

@879 stargazer

can you clarify this for me? "Rand objects, saying that she didn't die, she WAS still alive." or "Rand objects, saying that she didn't die, she IS still alive." there's a difference there...

can't comprehend really if it was the DO's plan also that rand gets to use the TP. or if it was only an accident because of his link with moridin. i tend to like the idea of the former only because the DO wanted semi punished.

"A bully is a bully whether she uses the strength of her arm or other means." -remember the sexist issue we had from the previous post about kneeling (dumai's wells)? see this quote tam said here? its not about women or men. its anyone with power. anyone that is a bully. that is why aes sedai (most of them anyway) deserve to be knelt. =)
matt
881. mattyh
too all those people arguing that min died, can you please read the book. here, let me assist:
He opened his eyes and released Min. She gasped and sobbed.*

Rand stood and turned, white-hot magma in his veins - as when Semirhage had tortured him, yet somehow opposite. As painful as this was, it was also pure ecstasy.

Semirhage looked utterly shocked. "But...that's impossible..." she said.**

*this line suggests min was still alive.
**note that semirhage is still alive at this point too, right before rand balefires her. don't you dare insist that min gasped and sobbed herself to death :)

so, now that that's out of the way, let's not waste any more posts on this!
T C
882. Freelancer
::sigh:: Ok, one more time.

Balefiring Semirhage couldn't bring Min back to life if she was dead, because even though she was directing Rand, it was his hand choking Min, not Semirhage's. But that's irrelevant. The sequence is clear:
- Rand finds the True Power
- Collar blows off his neck
- He opens his eyes and releases Min (No longer choking her)
- Min gasps and sobs (Hard to do while dead)
- Semirhage freaks out and whines to the DO about betraying her
- Rand balefires her and Elza

And finally, the passage to which Stargazer referred:
But Lews Therin had one more name to add. Elmindreda Farshaw, he whispered.
Rand pulled Tai'daishar up short, stopping his column of Aiel, Saldaean cavalry, and camp attendants in the middle of the street. Dobraine turned back questioningly on his white stallion.
I did not kill her! Rand thought. Lews Therin, she lives on. We didn't kill her! that was Semirhage who was to blame, in any case.

Then a paragraph later:
There was no safety. If she died, he would add her to the list and suffer for it.

So, he rejected her name being added to the list, both because she didn't die, and because what did happen was the doing of Semirhage, not his fault.
Ed Rafferty
883. BigBoy57
So - we foretell!

Tarmon Gaidon is going badly for the light - many favourite characters have fallen - the DR himself is reeling - all appears to be lost - but wait, what do we see before us - is it? .... is it? yes! Three have linked...are become as one...prophecies are to be fulfilled at last!!

Egwene, Moiraine and Nynaeve stride forward and to Aes Sedai eyes they shine like the noon-day sun with the one power. Egwene flourishes the fluted white rod towards the Bore - here it comes....chins are lifted in unison......ahh! a voice calls from behind them - exhorting, persuading, coaching!? Wha.. ?

The mists begin to fall - all is hazy but dimly we see.....is it Hurin?!!

We now return to the singular pronoun (and fewer exclamation marks) but what does it mean this preview of TG? Dark are the mysteries of TWoT.

But I'm guessing the DO won't have a sniff of a chance whatever happens - (sorry about that).
Wilson Grooms
884. malkieri
people people, the LAST battle will not be fought by massive armies of men vs the forces of the shadow. Instead, it will occur within the soul of the dragon, and will encompass the eternal battle within mens spirits to either become an ethical being, or to fall to our own base desires. hence verins quite astute suggestion as to rand misunderstanding the subtleties of the DO tactics. perhaps that is the reason why rand is granted access to the true power, because remember, one has to be allowed to wield it, presumably with the express permission of the DO. also it is hinted that the true power is in fact the very being of the DO, so who wields it essentially draws the DO into themselves. Rands altered state after killing semirhage, the palpable sense of darkness that surrounds him, and the change in the taveren twisting of the pattern, ie the lack of balancein its effect, definitly suggest that the DO tactics revolve around forcing rand to succumb to the darkness. indeed moridins instructions to the other forsaken to make rand suffer despair and pain is essentially designed to strip rand of his own humanity.
moridins obvious link to rand is perhaps an attempt to supplant the dragon as the preeminent taveren in the weave of the pattern, maybe thru the agency of balefire. it is possible that the incarnation we know as moridin was essentially constructed by the DO for this purpose. ok let me explain. rand has on more than one occasion had visions of moridin. the onset of the visions occurred in shadar logoth, when balefire woven from saidin and balefire woven from the tp collided. still with me. now we all know that the cumulative effect of balefire threatens the integrity of the pattern. so who suggested to rand the most effective way to destroy the forsaken was with balefire, it was of course moridin. why? maybe to destabilise the age lace enough so that the DO could remove the dragon from the weave and replace him with another taveren, ie his own sevant moridin. speculative i know but as verin suggests, the DO is far more subtle than his servants.
john massey
885. subwoofer
Wha? Who? Blight? Here?- Ummmm, we just call it snow folks...

I think that was a misnomer. RobM@788 was talking about parts of Canada being similar to characteristics of the countries that form the Borderlands, so that is what I am going with. Especially as I have seen some Domani hussies saunter on by in recent history. Personally, I refer to Starbucks as the blight, taking over the world a five dollar cup of coffee(?!) at a time.

To all, the Bunker is in R.Fife's back yard, somewhere on the east coast of the continental U.S. Was created the first time a flame war started and subsequently visited by a certain Rickroller. I hang out there because my mouth, er, my typing mouth is bigger than my foot and I sometimes say things that deserve a spanking...

@rothaar- you win! I am not going through the pain of counting but like the beginning of Space Balls, your post has the same effect as the big ship that converts to a maid with a vacuum.

My prediction for the next Forsaken to kack- all of them. Somewhere a Nae'blis(sp- thanks dew) has to be picked and the rest go bye bye. Similar to what happens in a succession in the Seanchan world. There will be one baddie fighting Rand. One baddie that is the focal point of the DO's power. Everyone else will sit in limbo until the next turn of the Wheel.

Fine, no poutine... am lactose challenged anyways. Will be sitting in the bunker with my keg o'beer- Real Canadian, not watered down, not may contain up to 3.2% alcohol but not really beer. I will demand a rematch at the next Beerfest.

Woof™.
Drew Riley
886. drewoftherushes
sms49 @875

I don't know if Semi is more unreliable than, say, any Forsaken. I think the DO knows that with Rand in her grasp she would have delivered him straight to SG and hoped to become Nae'blis. The male a'dam is tricky, that's true enough, but probably worth the risk.

But your argument kind of assumes that the DO is watching at all times -- is that true? Is the DO able to watch Rand/the world whenever he wants to? Because it sounds like you think the DO SAW what was going on and made the decision to give Rand the TP. I just don't think that's true.

Also, it certainly could have been a lesser-ranking darkfriend that gave away Egwene's plans. But how do all the Black Ajah know so fast, if they don't know each other? They only know a couple other members. Sounds like something with Tel'aran'rhiod to me. Maybe Mesaana found out and dreamed to all of her cronies. But the larger issue is can anyone but Egwene enter Tel'aran'rhiod now?
Galen Brinn
887. GatheringStorm
Put me in the LTT = Real column. Min's vision of Rand merging with another man, from back in ACoS...
Todd Willis
888. tswillis
got a question for everyone...i just purchased my edition of the gathering Storm and the bookstore salesgirl told me it was personally autographed by Robert Jordan could this be true???? I know this sounds like a joke question but its not!! BTW there is a signiture in the front "Robert Jordan"??
Could he have somehow signed some in advance?? Please no flames Todd
Rob Munnelly
889. RobMRobM
there is a reproduced sig of RJ in every volume; obviously not a new one. R
Galen Brinn
890. GatheringStorm
Hey tswillis,

Those are "printed" signatures. It's not a "true" signature. Mr. Jordan died 2 years ago, well before the text was completed much less printed so there's no way he could have signed any copies. The sales person at your bookstore either had no clue or was yanking your chain.
Wilson Grooms
891. Sabutai
Overall a great book, except I couldn't even bear to read the Mat chapters. I just skimmed them.

My biggest problem was how pathetic the Aes Sedai were in defending the tower! Think about Dumai's Wells and how the delegation that had captured Rand coordinated against the Shaido Wise Ones. Most importantly, they erected a defensive shield! Why weren't there circles of sisters in the Tower grounds protected by such shields, illuminating the sky around the tower and blasting to'raken from the sky!?!?!

Sure, the Ajahs were divided, so each Ajah circle would have fielded circles. Certainly the Green should have. And the White, since they would have quickly reasoned the most effective counter-measures.

And the Captain of the Tower Guard, needing an Aes Sedai to tell him to use bows? Please!

Also, what could the logic be for the Seanchan raiding force concentrating on the strongest point of resistance? 1) The sul'dam/damane would have realized they couldn't shield Egwene.
2) The point of the raid was to gather as many Aes Sedai as possible, which would best be accomplished by concentrating on and overwhelming small and medium sized groups of Aes Sedai, thus creating holes in the defenses and delaying/preventing a coordinated defense. Remember, the Fists of Heaven are an Elite raiding force. And that is as much about tactics as it is about individual skill.

As a scene of Egwene awesomeness, it rocked, but it really seems like the Aes Sedai and Seanchan were dumbed down to help elevate her.

Too bad. It could have been so much better.
Matthew Smith
892. blocksmith
Masteralthor@ 840

Based only on the fact that LTT's memories were real (i.e., actually factually correct) I put LTT in the "real" camp. My suspicion is that alternate personalities do carry out physical acts so I can't base that opinion on LTT seizing Saidin. But I have been mistaken before...

Freelancer@827

How can you disrespect A of D? (shaking head in wonder).

Pattack@840

Brought up Tuon being T'averen before and Leigh "Danger" Butler put me in my place...likely Tuon is not T'averen, merely strong-willed to resist Rand, and well-trained/protected to avoid assassination attempts.

Aye Aye Sedai@863

After further review, I am going to switch my vote to California being the Blight which makes LA Shayol Ghul (see Tool's lyrics for Aenima http://www.lyricsmania.com/lyrics/tool_lyrics_1951/aenima_lyrics_4858/aenima_lyrics_57928.html ) which makes Nancy Pelosi and Arnold Scharzenegger the DO and SH, respectively.

Lbrown@869 and AyesaidI@871

Thank you most sinseriously. Those were my feelings after reading the BF scene and just can't shake them.

Lbrown@874

Agree completely, I just don't see Asmo coming back...although the idea is fun to contemplate.

Subwoofer@885

I see your Canadian Lager and raise you a Longhammer IPA.

tswillis@888

I hate to burst your bubble (and as stated above I am often wrong) but I think your autograph is in every published TGS.
Jane Smyth
893. Kaboom
I'm not finished reading the comments, but at almost 900, it will take forever...

In general, like most people I loved the book. BS did a very very good job. Although I did pick up some word/sentences that RJ would never have used.

My least favorite scene was with Mat in that weird city. It seemed to take forever, but I'm sure that when I re-read it, it won't feel so long. I understand that he needed to do a small part about Mat so that Verin could be re-introduced with her letters before she died.

At first I had no problem with the way he got rid of Grandeal (and yes I believe she is really dead) with balfire. The other people there are so compulsed that they are as good as dead and would probably see death as a favor. But now I wonder. We know that balfired forsaken cannot be brought back by the DO. Does that mean that these souls can no longer be reborn by the wheel? If so, then they really did not get any favors.

They are several people that said the blade of light ... 3 into 1 line meant about callandor being used by 3 people, which also make sense to me, but when I read the ending, I believed that it was the CK that was used to fused the three personalities in Rand head into one.

In any case, I now see that the 3 in 1 is like a theme in the books. There's the 3 people using Callandor, the 3 powers possibly being used to seal the DO prison, the 3 personalities in Rand head, but also the three Taveren that will have to work together to fight the last battle, helped by the color vision they see of each other.

One minor complaint I had about the organization of the book, is that (at least in the first half) everytime a chapter (short) finished, the story arc also changed. I found it did not stay long enough with each arc. But near the end that was back to RJ normal.
Leslie Annis
894. Lannis
tswillis @ 888: Brandon Sanderson has stated (on Facebook a few days ago) that he requested Jordan's printed signature be included. He didn't feel comfortable signing the books unless RJ's signature was there as well. Classy guy! :)

@ Sub: Thankfully no snow here (yet). Though I might put the motion forward, myself, to call us the Blight come January... I'm all pro-snow until it hits the ground. A self-proclaimed indoor girl. Hence all the reading...

@ Freelancer... you make me laugh... no disrespect! I just chuckle at your posts because I feel like you're the babysitter who was dumped with a gaggle of kids on a post-Hallowe'en sugar rush... ;)
john massey
895. subwoofer
@Blocksmith- Harumph! Lemme clear up a bit of confusion here. When I say "Canadian" I am not referring to that brand of beer. Way too generic for me, especially since Molson sold out. But, as we are talking about IPA's, I'll re-raise you a Keith's.

@888- my copy is special too!!! And it has my signature in it as well! Ooooooo- collector's item :)

As for Fortuona being Ta'veren, not feeling it. I think it is just the Seanchan ignorance of things this side of the ocean, and a strong sense of duty and place in society that kept her from dancing to Rand's tune.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
896. dg78
No, the blight is not in Canada. The blight is in Bakersfield, CA. For sure.

Quick speculation:

- Seanchen Prophecy - Either completely false, or as in the Princess Bride - "Mostly False"

- Matt - A bit over the top. I like Matt at Medium rare to Medium. BS cooked him a little too well done.

- Rand - I had to put the book down because he was pissing me off. So, great job on his character development.

- Egwene - Maybe some of the characters were "dumbed down", but her scenes were way too cool for me to worry about it. :P

- TGS Overall - Awesome.
john massey
897. subwoofer
Rand's way of solving stuff doesn't really work either. I tried staring at everyone on this post when some wiseacre said Canada= Blight and nothing. And asking "So, you think Canada is the Blight?" with icicles hanging off my eyebrows wasn't so convincing either...

@Lannis- no snow here either- just a lot of brown. Meh, keeps us hale and hardy and at some point, we will have us a white Christmas. Besides, if we are the Blight, then Santa's address is Shayol Ghul and see what he gives certain people for Christmas instead of nice stuff.

Just sayin'.

Woof™.
Matthew Smith
898. blocksmith
Subwoofer@895

You must have something good...but I see your Keith's and re-raise a Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPA (I should probably try the Keith's before I make this bet, but that's why its gambling, right?)

The description of the scene with Tuon and Rand had me thinking that Tuon must be T'averen to resist that pull she was feeling. I got the impression that some Other Force was pushing her away from making the truce. There is another commenter (name is escaping me at the moment) that indicated they felt it was the pattern resisting Rand's T'averen-ness to force a sequence of events (raid on WT, Eg's escape and ascension, and ultimately/hoepfully Rand/Eg alliance)to force the Seanchan back to the negotiating table at the right time. In retrospect and after reading Leigh's opinion on Tuon, I am in this camp now and thus in agreement with you. Not feeling Tuon being T'averen.
Rob Munnelly
899. RobMRobM
900?

Darn it - too early. Where's subwoof when you need him.
Arvid
900. SoneA
842. cavynmaicl
I agree with you partially. Im also in the middle ground. You can decide on your own what is a real personality. And btw, I think the memorys is what makes a personality, and Rand feeding those memories his pushed away emotions makes LTTs memory/personality go even more over the edge. That's why he is mad
F Shelley
901. FSS
Huh - I like in Northwest Florida (for now). Where does that put me?


Looks like Mayene. Scantilly clad women? Check. Oilfish shoals? Well, we have oil in the Gulf. Stupid neighbors that think they're so much better than everyone else? Alabama. So, check.

Looks like a match. We'll need a hotter governer.
Bob Smith
903. chiech22
Any thoughts on Logain wielding Callandor w/ two females sealing the bore while Rand fights in some other dimension(s) - ie Portal Stones, in between place in Tel'aran'rhiod, holding off the DO. It seems to me that the Final Battle would be fought between the DO and Rand in all dimensions at all times. At least that is my sense of their reality, being circular and all.
Roger Powell
904. forkroot
Planeswalker@880
@864 forkroot

i thought moiraine passed the bond to myrelle before it was cut off... so even if moiraine comes back, the bond won't be there anymore
Moiraine didn't pass the bond, she made arrangements for the bond to pass on her death. Lan didn't feel anything prior to Moiraine disappearing through the ter'angreal. Then he felt the bond pass, and Myrelle's immediate compulsion to come to her - which IMO saved his life as Moiraine had planned it would.

MuleHeadedLummox@877
@865 Samadai

I just assumed that she had already Traveled to the Two Rivers looking for Tam, and was told that he was with Perrin.
Yours is the more plausible explanation. If the Aiel WOs had been in communication then Amys would have known where Perrin was and told Cadsuane.
Roger Powell
905. forkroot
FSS@901
Need a hotter governor? I've got just the candidate. Definitely the best looking politician I've seen in a long time. People will be just as divided in their love/hate for her (like Berelain). And she's currently out of work.

You betcha!
Wilson Grooms
906. vangiuli
On the matter of what happens when someone is hit by balefire, many people seem convinced only direct actions taken within the balefire's timeframe are canceled while indirect actions, i.e. actions done because of the canceled direct actions.

Frankly, I find it a bit strange, considering that this argument was discussed just a few months ago during the WoT Re-read of Fires of Heaven.

Anyway, here is The Fires of Heaven, Ch. 6, Gateways (Moiraine's speaking):
...“It is terrible, Rand.” An urgent note entered her, voice. “Why do you think even the Forsaken feared to use it? Think of the effect on the Pattern of a single thread, one man, removed from hours, or days, that have already been woven, like one thread picked partly out of a piece of cloth...

and a bit later:
...Hundreds of thousands of threads pulled from the Pattern, gone for days already past; whatever those people had done, now no longer had been done, and neither had what others had done because of their actions. The memories remained, but not the actions...


As you can see, it's clearly stated that balefire cancels both direct and indirect actions. In other words balefire's effect is a cascading one.

So, balefiring Semi didn't cancel any of what had happened to Min not because that was the result of an indirect action, but because the balefire's timeframe was too short.

In Graendal's case nothing Rand did there was done in response to some action by Graendal, at least not one done within the timeframe of the balefire used to kill her.

I hope I've cleared the issue.
Rob Munnelly
907. RobMRobM
@901. I was thinking Florida would be Shara, given all the tatoos (ducks). R
F Shelley
908. FSS
@905 - eek! no!

I was thinking of the porn star that ran for governer of california a few years ago when they recalled Davis...

I think she has more ethics than most politicians...
Bob Smith
909. chiech22
@ vangiuli 906

That is what I was looking for - not that Balefire would not have erased Rand's actions via Semi, but the balefire bolt was too small. So again I postulate, why did Rand not use a bigger bolt and erase all the bad?
Andrew Blackburn
910. ajbcool
HO. LY. SNAP.

I so wanted to read the spoilers.....I wanted to read them all...but I wanted to wait before I got the book. So I decided to buy it. And so I read it in two days.


IT ENDED IN AWESOME. Here's my thoughts on various things:

Egwene: She shall be forever known as the Awesome Amyrlin of Awesomeness. I LOVED that Seanchan battle scene. Teaching the novices how to link? GENIUS.

Rand & Semirhage: Good that he decided to kill a female Forsaken. Bad....everything else. I, too, got a 'nothing good can come of this' from it, which got realized right away with Cadsuane's 'exile'. I saw the balefiring of Graendal's place as necessary. How do you take someone that clever out? You nuke 'em. Kinda sad Graendal wasn't seen...or heard from. Beyond the prologue. She didn't fight....

Rand & his attitude: It was first with that poor dockmaster. He sought guidance from the Dragon Reborn, who left as if he didn't care. Then poor Hurin. A character brought back from the past, who didn't expect his hero to be so....dark. And then Rand almost blows up the ENTIRE BORDERLAND ARMY JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING SAFE. HO. LY. SNAP.

The appearance of Mat 'n Perrin: Mat seemed really random and unimportant; in face, his scenes looked like complete FILLER. Perhaps the meeting with Verin was important, as in, we'll see what's in that sealed letter. But that freakey town? Filler. Mat's creation of a large con with complete five-page backstory? Filler AND out-of-character.

Perrin's story just seemed to be in there to remind us that 1. That's where Tam is, and 2. To set us up Perrin's internal struggle in the next book (probably).

Oh, and do you guys remember that the Prophet is dead? Good riddance. It was interesting to get his view, though. He was cracked like....something really really cracked. He kept flipping his views on his follower's faithfulness.

And that's all I can think of right now.
Andrew Blackburn
911. ajbcool
Oh! I remember something else I was going to cover. The 'different authors' portions.

There were some parts in the beginning where I thought I noticed. And then I thought of how they would be rewritten to better fit the way I expected it to be written. Not so noticable in the latter half, though.
Barry T
912. blindillusion
Here's a shot in the Dark...err...a question I haven't seen mentioned yet. Does anyone think Verin had to kill Balinor when she was forced into the Black Ajah?
Wilson Grooms
913. daverg
Gaidal was spun out and is a child somewhere

from 731 above

i think everyone can surmise,if not stated before, it's probably Olivr in Matt's camp. And I wouldn't be surprised if Noald, the old guy (i can't spell) isn't Jain .....Farstrider?!
Pete Pratt
914. PeteP
I think Rand's LTT memories are real, but the personality is a construct Rand created to isolate and deal with the issue. So when LTT started using the One Power etc., it was Rand's split personality doing it, not some different entity. After all, Rand is LTT.
Jason Ferrante
915. Ferrante
I have a question about the three become one part with Callandor. Nyneave and Alivia sound like good choices because they are the two strongest non-Forsaken besides Sharina, but why could it not be Elayne and Aviendha? They got their little love triangle going on, could it mean the three hearts become one, and it is them Rand needs to link with to defeat the DO?

I doubt I am right on this idea, but it was something that started to bug me yesterday when I was rereading.
Wilson Grooms
916. endertek
Regarding Mat's elaborate background stories for the covert ops mission into town:

1) they were hilarious, and
2) they were believable.

Mat has lost control over every aspect of his life and the fact he is married erodes his own self image to the core. Anyone in this situation, with nothing but idle travel to occupy him, would be likely to try to take complete control over the only possible adventure to come his way. Think how insistent he is to take this trip to town and reassert the old Mat. It's a desperation akin to a man drowning. Of course his actions will be exaggerated.
Wilson Grooms
917. daverg
915. Ferrante
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday November 04, 2009 11:34am EST

I have a question about the three become one part with Callandor.

>>>it may have to do with the three voices in Rand's head becoming one.....if as stated above Lews Therin was not destroyed as part of the Choedan Kal that Rand destroyed and melded with Rand....just a thought.
Wilson Grooms
918. daverg
who's the girl on the cover?

and what does the scene depict, if anything?
Barry T
919. blindillusion
@918

The girl is Avi.

The scene is just after the death of Adrin when Rand goes ballistic.
Jason Ferrante
920. Ferrante
@917
ya, that makes more sense.

@918

the girl is aviendha, and the scene is when the soldier turns into charcoal when Ituralde enters Rand's camp, and Rand raises his hand to tell the DO to chill out and that he will begin the Last Battle soon enough.
Galen Brinn
921. GatheringStorm
daverg @ 913,

Olver is a red herring. IIRC, RJ publically stated that he was NOT Gaidal Cain. I think the reference to this statement can be found in the WoTFAQ, although I know we have discussed it ad infinitum on the regular threads here.
Wilson Grooms
922. alreadymadwithanswers
I'm confused by Egwene's list of three sisters who could be Mesaana. That list is sisters not on Verin's list who had disappeared or were taken. But earlier, she seems to know that exactly 40 were taken (including over two dozen full AS). Also, exactly sixty BA (plus twenty from the rebels) escape. But she includes Evanellein in this list whose disappearance only "strongly suggests" that she is BA. So, why doesn't she know if the three were captured, or they just disappeared?
Joseph Blaidd
923. SteelBlaidd
I also hold the semantic position. The Real not Real debate seems like two people arguing about whether the car that just sideswiped them was red or a Toyota.

On other Topics
Min never Died.
Grendahl is Dead D-E-D dead.
Cads looked for Tam in the TR and was told he was of with Perrin.
Egwene is Made of Awesome.
Gawyn is redeamable.
Tam is Made of Awesome.

Longtimefan @833
great analysis of the why of Hindersnap.

endertek@916 Right on not only is he reacting badly to getting the wedding but no honeymoon, but he is also freaking out about theway that the shadow seams to be dogging his heels. I mean he is in the back forty of BFE and there is sombody asking around about him one town over, and he was told about this by the mayor of Ghoulsville. After that I would be over compensating too.
Wilson Grooms
924. endertek
Regarding Mat's zombie town - isn't there a mythical reference (Norse) to everyone in "heaven" spending the day slaying each other and then awaking all healthy and whole the next day just to do it again? With all the myth-based names and plot lines in the book, this makes having zombies less pop culture and more in tune with the series' underpinnings, IMHO.
Wilson Grooms
925. Auspicium
@ 906 Thank you! Every time I wanted to pull out that quote in response to the indirect v. direct actions regarding balefiring I got called away from my computer. Glad someone finally settled it.
@ 913


GatheringStorm is right. Olver is definitely not Gaidal Cain. Dismissed by Jordan himself, sort of like how Taim is not Demandred. I think one of the more accepted theories is that Olver will sneak into the Tower of Ghenjei after Matt, Thom and Noal, thus "breaking the rules", which is, of course, the only way to beat the snakes and foxes.
Darth Agilus
926. darth.agilus
Alisonwonderland @862 - perhaps this is Logain killing Moridin at Shayol Ghul.

Aye said I @871 - there have been a lot of similar sentiments posted here on various scenes, but if every plot line and villian (or even most) got full treatement we would be looking at another 5-6 books. Better to say "I wish we'ld gotten this resolved more fully in books 8-10" than to grouse about how it was handled in this book.

Word to the wise, be prepared for more of the same in the next two books, even your most anticipated reveals. Don't let it spoil your enjoyment of the new material though. I've already written off seeing Elaida go "oops!" when she finds out Rand fulfills her Andorian foretellings, Tam and Rand having a larger and dramatic re-reunion, etc. I bet we do get some vignettes of these things though:

"Suffa puts the lotion in the basket or she gets the hose." -Hahahahaha

drewoftherushes @860 - great point on the TP vs Domination Band. However if the DO needs to turn Rand or the LB hinges on a decision Rand makes, then forcing him with the band is probably counterproductive while seducing him with the TP is a masterstroke. Of course this assumes free will is necessary.

Also your comment about balefire is insightful. Perhaps balefire is not quite as powerful as we believe. It can damage the Pattern but not destroy it?

EDITED: for typo
Jason Ferrante
927. Ferrante
@925

I agree with you that Olver will sneak into the Tower of Genji once Mat, Thom, and Noal go in, but to cheat Thom will have to play music, Matt bring some of Aludra's "strikers" in, and Noal will have to bring the 2 long daggers he keeps up his sleeves.
Barry T
928. blindillusion
SteelBlaidd@923

back forty of BFE

Seriously ROTFFLMAO

And I agree. After all, what did Morpheus teach us?:

sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

Well, Mat has just taken another step down his path and it's freaking him out. He's simply trying to prove to everyone around him what they already know. That he's still the same Mat.
Tess Laird
929. thewindrose
My goodness this is getting long! I have been able to keep up, but it must be daunting for people who have just finished. It is fun to see some thoughts on characters that have been debunked for a while now. I am looking forward to when the re-read starts up again, and I hope we can include tGS in it.

I have to admit I was bummed that it turned out to be Halima beating Sheriam. I thought that at first, but totally jumped on the Lelaine band wagon. It just seemed kind of lame that it was a *Forsaken*, much cooler to be a power hungry Blue sister.

With Verin's admission to what she has been up too, I think my idea that she is behind the Demira beating has a little more merit.

I am in the LTT was real and has know merged into a
a more integrated Rand now:)

Can we get subwoofer to claim post 1000???
Roger Powell
930. forkroot
If Olver sneaks in, it could blow the rescue. Remember the limit of three is not the Finn's "rules", it is a condition put on by Moiraine based on her viewings of possible futures in Rhuidean.
Jason Ferrante
931. Ferrante
I was bummed when Egwene took the 3 Oaths. I remember when she took her test to become an Accepted when she saw herself as Amyrlin raised from the Green Ajah, and that she led the Great Purge against the BA. I was confused to see 2 of those "vision?" come true, but not the third.
Don Barkauskas
932. bad_platypus
amw@811, freelancer@827:
Why didn't Verin just ask to be stilled to have her dark oaths removed?
Does anyone beside Siuan, Leane, Min, and Egwene know at this point that stilling removes the Oaths? Even if that's not a complete list, it doesn't seem likely Verin would know.
Darth Agilus
933. darth.agilus
@ 880 Planeswalker/ @873 Keztra/ @878 Freelancer:

LOL - no wonder there is so much religious strife in the world and inability to agree on what the Koran/Bible/Torah (insert holy writings here) means. We can't even get an agreement on something that is blatantly stated in a fantasy novel.

1. "He slammed the weaves against the collar at his neck ... He opened his eyes and RELEASED Min. She gasped and sobbed."
Flat out stated he released her. Also breathing is a prerequisite of gasping and sobbing. Otherwise it would have said "scrabbled at her throat, mouth working like a fish" or some such. So clearly going to live at this point.

2. After that paragraph we get:
"Rand raised a hand and ... a bar of pure white light ... burst from his hand and struck Semirhage in the chest."
A one handed man can't do this while still choking his girlfriend. Sure Def Leopard's drummer can committ domestic violence with one hand, but I'm pretty sure he can't play the drums at the same time.

3. LTT's thoughts at the time in relation to actual events:
"Those beautiful dark eyes of hers watched him ... I've killed her! I'm mad! Ilyena! ... He ... released Min. She gasped and sobbed."
The batty LTT has already written Min off as soon as he starts choking her. We clearly see Min alive TWICE after LTT first says she's dead (1st time -"She held his eyes with her own ... Min's face grew purple, her eyes fluttered."). He's just a nut job with an obsession and probably would rather claim killing Min than admit using the TP.

Interesting question for the LTT real debate from this - is it possible for split personalities to see the same event and have two different memories of what happened? I assume they can interpret events differently but can a person walk through a door and one personality says "yep we did that" and the other say "no we didn't. bob did"?
Wilson Grooms
934. Chriscot
Subwoofer and Forkroot @ 670 and 672:

Ok, so I may need more specific directions to the bunker.

This morning, while getting ready for work, I realized after putting on my black pants (and socks, shoes, and belt) that I was putting on a red shirt. Immediately, the thought popped into my brain, unedited, "Cr*p, Moridin's colors!"

A few months ago, I bought a new backpack. (No, I've been out of school for years, but it's still a handy way to carry around WoT novels. They're heavy.) My backpack is red and black.

And, I got stuck with post #666.

I kid you not, either I'm being forcibly merged with the Naeblis or I'm spending *way* too much time thinking about the WoT.

The latter seems impossible, so that leaves only the former, unfortunately. Snikes.
Wilson Grooms
935. Chriscot
Allisonwonderland @ 862:

Thanks for the Logain dream in ACos. Now I remember it. The black stone Logain mounts is emblematic of the black stone slab that Rand speaks from when he coins the name Ashaman and first shows off the sword and dragon pins. Or more generally of the Black Tower itself. It ties perfectly into my interpretation of Logain's future glory, and Rand's post-Last Battle state.

1) Rand will be believed dead (his death is a fake, or he's resurrected or whatever, but he leaves "public" life, probably living his new life in Moridin's current body).

2) Taim the Traitor will be dead. Possibly at Logain's hand, though that's not necessary.

3) With Taim gone and Rand believed dead, Logain is the only logical choice for the Ashamans' new M'Hael. This gives him glory in addition to whatever he may win via his actions in the Last Battle. Per Nicola's Foretelling (that "the Guardians balance the Servants"), in the world order the M'Hael will be the Amyrlin's opposite number, equal or superior to any king.

By the way, this Foretelling of Nicola's seems to predict that both the Ashaman (Guardians) and the Servants (Aes Sedai) will continue after the Last Battle, hence my dismissal of theories that channeling will be lost after Tarmon Gaidon.
Darth Agilus
936. darth.agilus
Freelancer @878 - forgot to mention - I like your take on the chapter title, excellent interpretation.
Bill Reamy
937. BillinHI
Freelancer @854: Graendal re Mesaana: But do we know that Graendal actually knew that (from Mesaana herself), or is it just Graendal's supposition? I tend to agree that Mesaana was hiding as an AS, but it's yet another RAFO for real.

blocksmith @892: I could buy Nancy Pelosi as the DO but not Ahnald as SH. Actually I believe Pelosi is SH for the real DO: BO(bama).
Wilson Grooms
938. Chriscot
Oh...btw, the Blight is warm, so Canada can't be the Blight. It could be the Borderlands...which are cool. ("Cool" - get it?)
Wilson Grooms
939. Nightbaron
Forkroot @930

Although maybe Olver will do things that Moiraine hasn't seen in Rhuidean's rings. I do like the idea that

"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind
Music to dazzle, iron to bind"

Could be represented by Mat using strikers, Thom playing music, Noal bringing iron daggers and Olver gets courageous enough to enter the Tower of Ghenjei.
Wilson Grooms
940. UK Chris
@634 Balthanon

Thanks for the reply -- with the "black halo" I assumed he was using *a* power (not sure which one). However...tomato tomaato on that one. He was still trying to bend someone's will/decision to his own, so whether it was a gun or a knife, it's still not cool. Esp Mat's wifie!
Wilson Grooms
941. daverg
i thought the characters were in line, despite the author change.

the only one a bit out there was
Talmanes with his outrageous new gain sense of humor.

Verin is at top of my list as fav character (i always found her mysterious and intriguing)
passing Mat in this last chapter who was my fav
and
Tuon still kicks you know what on my scale.
She has the will power and something more.
My other fav Loial, is still waiting to be heard from.


on opposite side
Nyneaeve has grown, now
she is showing some potential. Rand now
knows what she has done, it will be interesting to see what becomes of it. Will he pull a Lews Therin and banish all the Aes Sadei? Or will his supposedly new "caring" self grant some sort
of mercy play?
Egwene has grown on my list too. Clearly out of my doghouse, her character has completely changed as expected.
I am happy not to bear Elaine in this chapter.
Siuane also was not one of my fav and found
her character a bit awkward here.
I have love hate affair with Cadsuane, when she first entered I liked her alot, then I hated her. But she showed me a lot of guts by sticking around and going into town Ebon Bander despite being banished and still showing her face,albeit, covered, around Rand. Her plots are working behind the scenes it seems....

just my thoughts for whatever they are worth
Wilson Grooms
942. Wapaul
@906

Just because Moiraine said it is so does not make it true. We should know by now that the Aes Sedai are far, so very far, from all knowing. Even Mo, our favorite infodumper, is not always right.

Look at it this way. Balefire has to exist outside its own paradox. If the cascading effect was true, imagine this situation. Person A kills someone/does something, which pushes person B over the edge. B then balefires A so far back that whatever A did that set B over the edge didn't occur. Now, if events cascaded, B would no longer have a reason to balefire A as that act never happened, which means A would be alive to do the same thing again... endless loop. The pattern strives to eliminate paradox, so whatever A did would be erased, but by necessity B's actions would still exist, even if they were caused by what A did.

I know that got complicated with hypotheticals, but still. The pattern cannot allow paradox, and therefore balefire has to exist outside its own paradox to facilitate it.
Wilson Grooms
943. Aneid
The Black Tower is set up nice for next book. It is a convoluted mess that is for sure.

There are two embassies from Aes Sedai roaming around the grounds.

With potential Black Ajah Sisters bonding Asha’man. Darkfriend Asha’man talking to Sisters.

Men aligned with Logain and Men aligned with Taim (most likely the Darkfriend Asha’man). There is hostility and tension all over the place. I cannot imagine it will take too much to set that powder keg off.

I believe that ToM will be much like CoT in that it will cover events in Perrin’s camp, Elayne, and the Black Tower that were missed in tGS and towards the last half of the book move the entire plot forward a bit for aMoL.

I have a strong feeling that retribution will be served to the Seanchan for their attack on the White Tower. I cannot imagine a sit down and discussion with Fortuona and Egg’s but who knows. I am sure the heavy losses from the raid will not go unnoticed by the Empress, but Jordan and de facto Sanderson have thrown me for many of loops in this series, so RAFO I guess. Puts a real kink in the title “Ever flaming Victorious Army” to quote Mat.

That said I am very interested in the final solution of the BT. I have a strong feeling that there will be a few left turns handed to us in that plot line. Too many players and factions in that thread that the potential to zig rather than zag is easily attained.

800. Freelancer

Re: Seanchan Helping Egwene, that is an interesting take. I did look at that part of the ‘Dream’ as literal and I did not even think of the Seanchan as a whole. I wonder why the person was so starkly a fighter rather than a Sul’dam or the Empress who ordered the hit on the tower. Probably to keep the masses guessing.

Re: Semi-Constructed Prophecies. I did not think Semi revised the Seanchan Prophecies, I just did not have the books with me in order to engage the question MasterAlThor posed in the post above my post. Ishy corrupted the Seanchan Prophecies, but come on man, the Seanchan wanted that corruption … they have too much pride to believe that they somehow were just a bit part actor in the Tarmon Gaiden play and not the star of the show. “Ever Victorious Army”, someone trying to compensate for something? If it were so easy to manipulate Prophesies Ishy would have tried in Randland Prime. Not saying he didn’t succeed in some small fashion but the over all major prophesies went off without a hitch. I think the Seanchan were built to be deceived in terms of the prophecies.
Galen Brinn
944. GatheringStorm
Various @ various,

Out of respect for other peoples' opinions, can we please keep the Real World political and/or religious commentary out of this discussion except where parallels to the book(s) can be made?

Thank you.
Matthew Smith
945. blocksmith
BillinHI@937

Just my not so veiled attempt at pointing out that politicians, in general, are right there with ambulance chasing lawyers and ponzi-scheme cons as duplicitous pond-scum with bad intentions. What, me a cynic?

Wapaul@942

I think your logic may be slightly flawed as I believe commenters above have quoted RJ as stating that Balefire removes the actions but not the memories, therefore, while the "reason" to BF person A has been reversed, the memory of what person A did to warrant BFing remains. Ipso Facto, person A deserved what they got, end of loop.

I actually think the idea of balefire is less of a paradox than time-travelling into the past and killing your grandfather, assuming you take the boundaries established by RJ into consideration.

Relative to the visit to the Tower of Ghenjei, I always took Moiraine's letter as being straight forward...only 3 better go in or they fail. I see Olver sitting that one out.
Matthew Smith
947. blocksmith
Gateringstorm@944

My opening comment at 945 was not intended as a flagrant foul...I read it after I posted...just happened to be right after yours.

Hoping for no hard feelings...
James Jones
948. jamesedjones
916 endertek

Hilarious, yes. Believable, no. Mat is a consumate gambler and rogue. He knows that the best lie is the simple one that won't trip you up. Too many details offer too many tells. And each one of them offers your audience another chance to spot the falsehood. Mat would never have added that much detail to a background story.
Barry T
949. blindillusion
Some more fuel for the growing bonfire outside the bunker:

GD: Anyone who knows the books at all knows that Rand al’Thor hears the voice of Lews Therin in his head-sometimes cackling like a madman, other times more helpfully. After wading through all of Robert Jordan’s notes, and listening to those dictated comments, do you have a new sympathy for Rand?

BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.” In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

- The GeekDad Interview with Brandon Sanderson


From BS's lips to our ears ladies and gents. I've always gone by the thought that LTT is just Rand talking to himself. Unless I'm reading this interview wrong, both RJ and BS feel the same way.

LTT was simply an element of Rand's insanity with a dab of true "memories" from his past life.

- Blind

let that fire burn
Wilson Grooms
950. daverg
Out of respect for other peoples' opinions, can we please keep the Real World political and/or religious commentary out of this discussion except where parallels to the book(s) can be made?

>>yes i agree, everyone who knows Pelosi
is strung together by botox and is more akin
to Galina than anything else, in helping getting the fraud Elaida (OBama) elected by signing two different certs during the election stating he is natural borne citizen when clearly obama is NOT with one of his parents an obvious Brittish subject. Since as the framers of the Constitution obviously considered natural borne citizenship requiring two parents as citizens as found it LAW OF NATIONS and Supreme Court case decisions and opinions by author of 14th ammendment. I see Egwene struggles much like that of Orly Taitz trying to prove that BO is a fake, which he is, and constantly getting beaten up for it. How is that for true life parallism? Can't beat that, can you?
Arvid
951. SoneA
@942
I do not quite understand.
I think that Balefire cant be reversed by its own effect, or another balefire.
So basically. When balefire has been used. It CANNOT be reversed by another balefire.

Thats what you meant right?
Galen Brinn
952. GatheringStorm
blocksmith @ 947,

No worries.

daverg @ 950,

Yes, that's sooo much better. That comment elevates the level of discussion oh so much(/sarcasm).
Matthew Smith
953. blocksmith
daverg@950 and Gatheringstorm@944

And let the flaming begin...

At this point, however, I will be going in the corner of the bunker with my Scotch, grabbing a snickerdoodle off the plate by the door, and sit in a nice reclining chair trying desperately to SOOTO (Stay Out Of This One).
Darth Agilus
954. darth.agilus
blindillusion @949 - thanks for the addition. Certainly changes the discussion. I still have trouble reconciling this statement with what is written. I've never doubted Rand was losing it but felt LTT was a reason not a result. I also find the quote to be stream-of-consciousness vague/confusing, but maybe that's just cause I can't fit my point of view into it. :)
Wilson Grooms
955. endertek
A REALLY lame theory - but couldn't resist. If "Tuon" is dead and "Fortuona" now lives, does this mean Mat's marriage is null and void? He did marry "Bloody Tuon" and she did marry "bloody Mat" as "Tuon", not as "Fortuona". Enough of the quote marks, I know....

Any thoughts?
F Shelley
956. FSS
Ruh Roh - Scraggy - this one didn't start because I wanted a hotter governer, did it?
F Shelley
957. FSS
On the other hand, we can't be too far away from breaking this thread, can we?
Wilson Grooms
958. endertek
948: JDJ

Hi. Under normal circumstances, I agree. I just think that it's believable to see Mat at this particular time as a little bit self-destructive and perhaps, like a child being told what his boundaries are (as ta'veren, as married, as a general whether or not he likes it, as a leader, as a PRINCE for goodness sake, as having the "finn" in his head) he is trying to control this one aspect of his life and has gone slightly goofy over it. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and wait and see if the more subtle trickster comes back next book. Or maybe I'm projecting my own reaction to marriage? LOL
Wilson Grooms
959. Aneid
955. endertek

The marriage is null and void only if the spiders web in the east corner of the room skips three full spins, and the night before the owl in the window left 3 feathers on balcony.

Everyone knows those are the two mitigating omens that require the marriage canceled out. Although I might be missing an omen???

Heh, I doubt that the name change stops the marriage, but there is probably some interesting ceremony that he must fulfill, I doubt Mat is the Prince of Ravens, but rather Lord of Some-such-such-or-another.
Galen Brinn
960. GatheringStorm
blocksmith @ 953,

Honestly, I'm not trying to start a flame war. We've had enough of those on this board in the past.

In this case, I made a simple, respectful request of everyone who has posted and got spit on in return by one person. I said my piece and now I'm done.
Matthew Smith
961. blocksmith
Gatehringstorm

I took your request as such...respectful and to the point...clearly, we have all seen such requests and opinions cascade into much larger issues and it certainly looked headed in that direction.

I would take FSS up on his offer and blame him. I mean, what audacity, wishing for a hotter governor.:)
Matthew Smith
962. blocksmith
And why can't spell Gatehering...I mean Gathring...I mean...ahhhhhh! GATHERING!.
Wilson Grooms
963. seomen92
Here's a thought that struck me today.

It came to me when thinking about:

1. All the "kill Rand" orders and then "don't kill Rand" orders among the Forsaken.

2. The Fisher Piece Ishy/Moridin was playing with, TPOD. It can be on a Dark square or a light square, and it has different traits when on each.

3. Rand doing some great things (like cleansing Saidin) and not doing great things (like nearly nuking the Seanchan from the face of the Earth), which coincide with "Kill Rand" and "Don't Kill Rand" orders, respectively.

4. Rand with a darkness around him throughout TGS.

5. Rand laughing at the end of TGS.

This book, this series, is really about the salavation of Rand's soul. When he is doing good, the DO tries to kill him via the FS. When he is doing, or is about to do bad, the DO lets him be.

The Wheel turns, and Rand's soul must be saved from age to age to keep the DO from ending all things. (What does it say in the Bible. God let mankind continue because of one righteous man...Noah, the Great Flood, etc.)

This is why Ishamael is wrong in the dream sequence. It is not a war that must be fought from age to age, which will eventually be won by the DO. Rather, it is a struggle of the human condition whether we will continue to strive to be good, to be better, or whether we will not. So long as we still wish to be better, to do good rather than evil, then the Dragon will continue to be reborn. It is not a "technical" war where the bad guys only have to win once, but rather a war that can never be won by the bad guys as long as mankind shuns evil and exalts goodness.

That is also why Ishy is right in the dream sequence when he tells Rand how stupid it is to think he can kill the DO. Rand cannot kill the DO, and does not need to kill the DO. Rand only needs to kill the darkness in himself and be a force for good.

Thereby, the Dragon is reborn, and love and life, and hope are reaffirmed and glorified throughout time.

Anyway, I'm getting pretty lofty, here, but the long and short of it is that I think the way the Dragon wins, is to have a good heart. If he stays good, then the good win.

If his soul is saved, then we are all saved.

I think that is really the story here.

Seomen92

P.S. Bet we see another "kill Rand" order in the next book. I'm layin' 2 to 1 odds. Any takers?

P.P.S. Also, I think that the main reason that Mat and Perrin are born with the Dragon is mainly to help clean up the mess and rebuild. Any thoughts?
Galen Brinn
964. GatheringStorm
lol. No worries, blocksmith, for anything; misspellings or otherwise.
Wilson Grooms
965. daverg
goulds963. seomen92
Wednesday November 04, 2009 02:52pm EST

Here's a thought that struck me today.

It came to me when thinking about:

1. All the "kill Rand" orders and then "don't kill Rand" orders among the Forsaken.

2. The Fisher Piece Ishy/Moridin was playing with, TPOD. It can be on a Dark square or a light square, and it has different traits when on each.

3. Rand doing some great things (like cleansing Saidin) and not doing great things (like nearly nuking the Seanchan from the face of the Earth), which coincide with "Kill Rand" and "Don't Kill Rand" orders, respectively.

4. Rand with a darkness around him throughout TGS.

5. Rand laughing at the end of TGS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
6. Rand sitting on Dragonmount in a shower of light, and Egwene marking it on her calendar
Darth Agilus
966. darth.agilus
ajbcool @910 - Seriously? Rand exiling Cadsuane was somehow a negative result from the taint of the TP? That hack got off light, majorly. She only commits the 2 biggest screw-ups in the entire series and nearly loses the LB before it even starts. You have custody of a Forsaken and your only guard are 3 AS that are watching her? You keep her somewhere secluded and make 0 precautions for another top baddie rescuing her. Its not like the enemy has the ability to teleport through shadows or anything. Oh wait they do?

On top of that the Dragon entrusts you with an item that might be the greatest threat to him in the world and you leave it unguarded in your room with a ward? Weak. The result of this is the near capture and subjugation of your only hope at victory?

And what's your response? "Do you expect me to say sorry?" Uhhhh, arrogant and incompetent. Don't believe her POV. She just makes excuses like a hypocrite. She won't allow excuses from the most stressed man in the world for his manners for crying out loud, but she's gonna cut them for this?
Even if you want to excuse away the whole thing, it was still a major screw up and she should still be held accountable.

She got off soooooo light! What would Elaida have done to her? If she had messed up for the DO like that she'ld spend eternity screaming. Heck Tuon and half the rulers ever would have had her head for a screw up this big.

daverg @941 - I can't agree with you that Cadsuane behind the scenes plots are working. Seems a bit generous, gives her too much credit. Her goal is excellent. Working with the WO, Tam, & Nyn are spot on but way late in coming. She has completely mismanaged Rand - as Min and Tam epically point out, by reverting to methods Moraine abandoned. He can't trust her even though he wants to (and places great faith in her handing over Semi and the DB, without her actually proving worth it)because she is arrogant, working to her own ends (we know what those are but he doesn't), and clearly trying to manipulate him, including trying to use Min. Then royally screws up the Tam reunion. A script? Seriously? Hiding the fact you brought him? Far better to be up front and say "Hey, you seem to be struggling. Thought talking to your dad might help." As I see it, she almost loses everything for the Light for the second time in one book. The only reason its avoided is because of Rand's inner strength.
Wilson Grooms
967. daverg
In this case, I made a simple, respectful request of everyone who has posted and got spit on in return by one person

>>>>you asked for an analogy, and you got one, and I thought it was 1000 times better than the pelosi arnold and california being blight one....at least mine has a great deal of history behind it.

What you got against the Govenator, anyway?
Yo Arnold !!
Pelosi on the other hand, I can understand. Even the church wants to throw her out, must be member of the BA.
T C
968. Freelancer
endertek@924

Thank you. I tried suggesting before that neither Jordan nor Harriet would succumb to "pop" culture to craft a scene. Not zombies, not pandering to the young folk. There is no way they would feel pressure to cheapen the series at this point with such a thing, but if there's an ancient mythological parallel it would make sense. Good on you.


darth.agilus@926

The Silence of the Reds?


blindillusion@928

Yes, but Mat took the blue pill.


bad_platypus@932

Never assume that there's something Verin doesn't know. Sneaky is as sneaky does.


For people considering posting a theory, who have not been with other WoT forums before, a suggestion. Check out the WoTFAQ, formerly maintained by our esteemed hostess Leigh Butler; the Encyclopaedia-WoT; the Thirteenth Depository; Dragonmount the Wheel of Time Chronology; and perhaps even the WoT Wiki.

Among these resources, virtually every detail of WoT significance is defined, discussed, debated, or debunked. You will come across as more guru than goober if you check the "conventional wisdom" before popping up with "Asmodean isn't dead, Moridin snatched him. After all it says 'death took him'".

Just saying.
Ian Walker
969. Auspicium
@ 927

Of course. I knew that and I still don't know how I managed to leave out "Music to dazzle..." and all that good stuff.

Thanks for for the catch.

Now it's just a matter of When The Hell They'll Get There. I don't want any "Yes, we found her!" 3/4s of the way into the book; I want as much Mo as possible and yet I feel that's exactly what's going to happen...:-\

(Although it's always been my secret desire to have a Prologue open with a Moiraine POV.)
Kev Hamm
970. cavynmaicl
Freelancer@854
Folks, folks, folks...

cf my comments @582. Graendal's POV:
Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Granedal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities.

Indisputable. She is not Laras, she is not a novice, she is not a servant. She is an Aes Sedai.


Again, she may not be. Because the forsaken never lie. Or are never lied to by their spies.

Why would any forsaken or AS wear a plain white dress? The only one to do that has been Egwene when she was forced into it by Elaida. You seem to take the assumption of the forsaken at her word, but where did she get the info? From her spies. And where did they get their information? From their experience. But we've seen, time and again, that AS dismiss those not AS as immaterial, when in fact those women can be very dangerous and powerful - cf. Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin and wilders. The fact that there are other women in the tower gives Mesaana a wide range of choices to inpersonate, and almost all of them are easier to do than being a full-fledged sister.

Graendal's spies would be darkfriends that could be found easily by Mesaana, and they would assume, as Alviarin did, that Mesaana would hide as a sister. They would pass that assumption on to Graendal, who would hold to it as the 'facts known about Mesaana' without any proof. Otherwise, she'd have a name for Mesaana, just as she did for Demandred and Sammael. She doesn't, and it frustrates her to not know more, and so this hearsay is inadmissible as evidence.

She's hiding in the White Tower. As who, and where, we don't know yet, but again, it's simple logic that she's hiding as just about anything except a sister, and I still say she's infiltrating the tower via Novice costuming.

I did read the FAQ on Mesaana, and found several problems, to whit:

Physical featurs - the FAQ has the familiarity down to the lack of agelessness covering her face as the clue. It's a part of it, but the real part of it is that when confronted with a passing acquaintance in a non-friendly environment, and struggling to fit the acquaintance into a pre-conceived set of facts, Alviarin came up blank. She knew she'd seen the woman, but couldn't place her amongst the Aes Sedai. Well, gee, we've all had this happen. You meet someone, then you come across them again at a completely different event, and it's been enough time that you can't remember exactly where you met them, and you're struggling to put it together, and because of the other people at the current event you're limiting your recall to similar functions and groups. Which is when you come up blank. But then, you talk to them and, like lightening, you know where you met them, and it's completely unrelated to the current circle of people you know. If it were a venn diagram, it'd be two circles on different sheets of paper. You still know the person, but your own limits on how you think you know them stopped you from having recognition. In fact, this is so common, we have a phrase for it. "Oh yeah, I remember him. I just couldn't put two and two together." So, this bit of the FAQ strengthens my argument.

The Great Dress Debate - simplest answer is the likliest - most of the time she's not in the tower, and doesn't need to wear the plain dresses of a novice. Plus, when visiting as herself, it suits her needs to throw off direction. Again, this argument can strengthen my side.


Strength - again, down a razor. She's a forsaken, and doesn't need to be known as weaker than the other women forsaken, which could easily be found out if she shows her full strength. (an aside, is there a weave to fake more strength?)

Nothing put forth about either Danelle or Tarna is difinitive, and the simple fact that Mesaana would have to know everything of their lives and continue to fake being that one AS for much longer than is useful, leads to the simplest of things. She's not Aes Sedai, even tho she is in the tower.
Wilson Grooms
971. daverg
966
daverg @941 - I can't agree with you that Cadsuane behind the scenes plots are working. Seems a bit generous, gives her too much credit. Her goal is excellent.
>>>what is her goal? (i can see where you are coming from though). Did Rand not, at the end of this chapter, return to himself after being a cold hearted tyrant most to time. She brought Tam to him, that enraged him when he found out who was behind it. Tam spoke some words that caused him to think at Dragonmount after seeing people actually cared in Ebou Dar when he couldn't destroy the
Seanchan palace. Was it because people cared or was it because the guards were coming? In the end of the chapter it appears he got some of his humanity back. No? And Cadsuane triggered some of it with setting up meeting, no? As stated I have a love hate affair with her character. In this chapter at the beginning of it and since the time she helped him eliminate the taint in the one power I thought Rand's trust in her would be greater. She helped in escape in Far Madding too. But for every positive, Rand sees too many negatives. Perhaps it is insanity? I can't buy this love hate relationship going sour at the beginning of the chapter 12. I can see Rand getting ticked off when she lost the collar. But in early chapters there was plenty of reason to trust her. Like I said though, I am not married to my position, I am having a hard time buying it though.
Wilson Grooms
972. daverg
follow up
and she was there when the Forsaken
was imitating Tuon in the last chapter, she was the one who pointed it out!

Saved him again. Still no trust there, interesting?
>>>but you can say these are not her scheming, she is just doing her job. So one must be careful to distinguish between the two, right?
Wilson Grooms
973. TheTruePowerOfTheSource
My dream epilogue to Towers of Midnight, setting up the Last Battle:

All of the main characters are meeting up and making preparations, and everyone thinks, "Hey, maybe they'll all sit down and talk this out and actually get this shit moving."

Instead, every character promptly starts screaming at each other about some imagined slight that makes every single reader *headdesk* in frustration. Just as the confrontation makes it to a low boil, a thunderclap booms and they're all standing around in a featureless white room.

There's a chair in the middle of the room. In it sits THE CREATOR, who appears as an older man with dark hair, a bushy gray beard, sweet sunglasses, and a kick-ass hat. Standing next to the chair is the Creator's sidekick, a dark-haired younger fellow with glasses. The Creator gestures to his companion, who clears his throat.

"WELCOME TO THE HUB, WHERE SPINS THE WHEEL OF TIME. ALSO, IT IS VERY WINDY. VERILY, THERE IS ONE THING YOU ALL MUST DO IF YOU HOPE TO DEFEAT THE DARK ONE: STOP ACTING LIKE TOTAL DUMBASSES. SERIOUSLY, TAM IS THE ONLY ONE IN THIS STORY WHO HASN'T HAD HIS HEAD UP HIS HINDPARTS AT SOME POINT. IF YOU BOZOS WOULD JUST TALK TO ONE ANOTHER FOR TEN MINUTES AND COMPARE STORIES, MAYBE YOU'D REALIZE THAT THE LAST EIGHT BOOKS...EXCUSE ME, I MEANT TWO YEARS, COULD HAVE BEEN SKIPPED."

"LONG STORY SHORT, YOU'RE ALL IMPORTANT LORDS AND LADIES AND ALL THAT STUFF, SO ACT LIKE IT AND STOP BEING SO PETTY. SERIOUSLY, YOU REMIND ME OF THE FORSAKEN. THERE WAS A REASON I DIDN'T PICK THEM WHEN WE CHOSE UP SIDES. I DRAFTED YOU KIDS INSTEAD, AND HERE YOU ARE BITCHING ABOUT THE MOST MEANINGLESS PARTS OF THE STORY. YOU'RE ON THE SAME TEAM, NOW GET ON THE SAME PAGE AND KICK SOME ASS."
Torie Atkinson
975. Torie
@ blocksmith & others:

This is Randland, so please save your reality-based political discussions for another forum. Tor.com is not the place for it.
Wilson Grooms
976. dg78
Well, according to Gathering Storm, this parallel should work nicely:

George W. Bush, as loyal and patriotic as he may have been, clearly had the same decision making process as Elaida.

[Torie the moderator says: I'm going to be generous and assume you posted this at the same time as my comment right before this. Please don't do it again.]
Wilson Grooms
977. Aneid
Cadsuane – I did not like her from the start and not much has changed. Her desire for civility and her constant belittling in a most uncivilized way is the first condition that she is no good for Rand. Constantly calling Rand ‘boy’ and Nynaeve ‘girl’ is not meant as a compliment or a nice way of saying lad and lady but to diminish those she targets so they are in a lower position when talking to her. That is plainly uncivil and makes her a hypocrite to the core.

Then there is the bullying and the scheming and the hullabaloo (keeping with the Canadian theme) she causes. There is little redeemable about Cads except she inwardly acknowledges that she bungled her ‘handling’ of Rand.

~handling Rand … I got your handling right here~

My .02
Wilson Grooms
978. rothaar
sps49@711 Your point about Healing the Bore lends more strength to the idea of Nynaeve being one of the 3 to wield Callandor, I'd imagine.

freelancer@714 One of my assumptions, based on how we've seen BF used before, is that the strength of the BF scales with the size, rather than being related to how "much" of the BF hit you. I admit that before this, the two have generally been the same thing, so I don't have any basis for this assumption really. It just doesn't sit right for me that the amount of your corporeal body that gets hit with BF determines how far back your thread is burnt out. That seems more like a spiritual process than a physical process, but I could be wrong.

birgit@733 Ah, I forgot about Perrin's ghost town. The charred man near Rand doesn't counter my point, tho, since I was talking about large "scale" events in particular. It seemed like the events that included a large number of people centered on Mat, but the town that Perrin and co. found chucks that idea. Ah well.

balthanon@738 I like the idea of angreal only being able to be made my the opposite gender. Makes perfect sense but I haven't seen it anywhere before.

Aispicium@740 Also, Nynaeve Healing death has been hinted at enough times that it wouldn't shock me if she resurrects Lan (or Rand), honestly.

darth.agilus@749 I like your theory. Dunno if I buy it, but I like it. Or at least, parts of it.

Freelancer@800 I'm not sure the Callandor:Crystal Balefire:light analogy carries any weight. Balefire acts like a laser in that it goes real straight and its all glowy, but it tends to annihilate things rather than being deflected by them. Until someone can think of something that suggests that *'angreal have BF resistant properties on a more general basis, I'm going to stick by the idea that this is a further indication of Callandor's specialness and is going to come in handy again later. Seriously, this is the only defense against Balefire we've seen. What better feature for a weapon for OP combat to have? Also might make Rand's sword based badassery a little more useful down the road, but who knows. Those Aes Sedai in the Aiel ancestotron certainly thought it was important...

darth.agilus@790 I don't think that when people say that LTT isn't real they mean that he is a delusion concocted from whole cloth, which seems to be the stance you are arguing against. My understanding is that the two reasonable positions are that

1) Rand has real memories from LTT that have leaked through to his mind, which he himself has walled off into an alternate personality within his own mind to cope with it.
2) Rand is hearing the voice of the full persona of LTT, which is intact and attached to his soul and is now trying to occupy his body as a separate personality from that of Rand himself.

This is why the distinction is kindof pointless at this point. Everyone agrees that the memories and ideas are real. The debate is over the mechanism itself. The line about never having been two men in the first place is taken as support of 1) vs. 2).

(since we seem to be taking a census, I would say I think he is "real" but agree with everything Leigh has said because I don't think he is a separate entity, but just real memories dumped into Rand's brain by the thinning of the rebirth barrier by the Taint.)

I haven't been able to keep up with the comments in all of the re-read, but this was the consensus back in the days of rasfwrj as far as I can remember and have read since.

Speaking of which, this thread is ridiculously long. Why don't we all just move back to usenet or some more full-featured forum for these conversations?

Aye Aye Sedai@863 I'm not sure I want to get into a debate about the physics of Balefire, here, since its ultimately pointless to debate Fantasy Physics, but I can't help myself, so.... Your argument about the 4th power dilution is backwards. If BF were diluted with larger radius, we would see narrow beams producing greater effects than large beams. My calculation isn't based on the amount of the Power used, it is based on the observed relationship between radius and time erasure. It has been noted by someone else, I forget who, that Rahvin's death was in T'A'R. Since that was the anchor for my calculation, and is unreliable due to T'A'R time dilation, the whole thing is pointless anyway.

I agree that if BF acted like some sort of radiation, you would be correct, but from what I have seen in the series, it does not. Also, note that if anything it acts like a perfectly collimated laser, which has no dropoff in power over distance (It is always described as a bar, not a cone). The only dilution would be from creating a larger beam, and it is not clear from the text whether or not a channeler has any freedom to choose intensity vs. area. My impression has been that they do not, but I have no strong support for this beyond my gut.
T C
979. Freelancer
daverg@971

I would say that Caduane's goals are being met in spite of her poorly chosen methods, not because of them. Just as Rand was meeting the prophecies in spite of Moiraine's attempts to "guide" him, not because of them. Once Moiraine realized her mistake, that she doesn't rule the Pattern, she became much more beneficial. Cadsuane, as legendary as she is, still hasn't realized this, and probably won't until Min and Nynaeve beat her down real good.
Wilson Grooms
980. daverg
Well, according to Gathering Storm, this parallel should work nicely:

Wll, ccrdng t Gthrng Strm, ths prlll shld wrk ncly:

Grg W. Bsh, s lyl nd ptrtc s h my hv bn, clrly hd th sm dcsn mkng prcss s ld.

>>>srry dn't s prlll hr, hs dm. wnt t h*ll n hndbskt s sn s pls tk vr n 2006, p t tht tm th cmny nd th ntn wr dng prtty wll. t nly fll prt n 2008 ftr Pls ld Cngrss fld t d nythng bt th hsng mrkt dspt bng rptdly wrnd t d smthng. Ths whl sttn hs vry lttl t d wth th bk, MH.

[Refer to my comment 975 for an explanation.]
T C
981. Freelancer
rothaar@978

I happen to work with industrial lasers. Very common optical materials are used to modify the laser beam direction/shape/characteristics. If indeed balefire was anything akin to laser light, a crystal object could and would exhibit such optical properties.


daverg,

Torie was polite, please listen. She has the power to balefire your posts if you continue to ignore her request.
Rob Munnelly
982. RobMRobM
Can I join the chorus - please drop the politics. (Also, watch out or Torie will BF your posts. She's tricky). Rob
Rob Munnelly
983. RobMRobM
Free - great minds think alike, at least as to the all-powerfullness that is Torie.
Peter Nein
984. gimpols1908
Ok, So I am a slow reader... I paced my self to a week to read the whole book. And I am now up to post 200 so I am sorry if someone else has got to this yet. The 'Sadiared' comment is said by the AS not Mat, or am I crazy. I thought it was humorous. It was an AS talking down to someone and them saying, well yeah.
I found the book to be alot of fun. Many portions were done well. And I know many people were fed up with the Avi 'punishment' chapter(s). I felt that frustration as well. Perhaps that was the purpose. Even if you saw the anwser before she did, you still had to fight your way through the horrid useless punishments. You were with her and as frustrated as her. So great job there in helping you feel the pain of the character.

A couple of things did jump out at me as words RJ never would have used... Akimbo... really? akimbo? I believe we cross our arms under our breasts in randland, we do not stand with 'arms akimbo'. I kid, and laugh.

I hope most of you all had as much fun as I did reading the book and as someone who didn't read the prologue or the 1st and second chapters early my very first though after starting the book was. "Ding dong the prophet's dead, the mean 'ole jerk, the prophet's dead. Ding dong the annoying prick is dead!"
Wilson Grooms
985. dg78
gah,I was TP'd by the Dark One >
Torie Atkinson
986. Torie
@ 981 Freelancer

You work with LASERS?! Well I know who to call if I ever need to make a scale model replica of the NCC-1701.

Anyway. Carry on, carry on.
Galen Brinn
987. GatheringStorm
I didn't read the prologue nor the 2nd chapter. I did allow myself the bliss of chapter 1, however. Like most people, I immediately picked up on the different voice (not saying it was bad). By the time I got the book late last week and started reading, the difference was hardly noticeable. There were a few glaring examples ("saidared" being one of them) but overall, I felt that Brandon did a fantastic job of...you'll forgive the analogy...carrying the world on his shoulders.

I'm not quite through with the first reading and will be reading it again as soon as I'm done, but I will be zombie twitching for The Towers of Midnight very shortly.

Thanks to Brandon and Team Jordan for an excellent job!!!!
T C
988. Freelancer
Torie@986

I'm afraid your Enterprise model would need to be the size of a two-bedroom apartment if you wanted to squeeze one of our lasers into it. When I said industrial, I wasn't kidding. Besides, they emit Deep UV energy (193nm), not visible to us mortals.
Galen Brinn
989. GatheringStorm
Oi...talk about sunburn and skin cancer, Freelancer
Leslie Annis
990. Lannis
@ Torie: *waves* Hi! And thanks from the peanut gallery!

@ Free: re: lasers... I just have more and more appreciation for you, sir! Lasers! Awesome! :D
R B
991. MasterAlThor
Ok you crazy people. I had to go through all of this and keep a pad of paper to take notes for all the ones I wanted to respond to.

*Takes a deep breath*

Free @854
That is a very interesting theory about how Mat will lose his eye. Like to hear more on that.

drewotherushes @860
Your asessment of LTT is sound but I find it fundamentally flawed. IMO LTT is real because no matter how you want to slice it, one doesn't go schitzo and then just heal themselves. LTT is a seperate personality since they didn't completely intergrate in the first place.

Aye Aye Sedai @863
Come on leave Mrs. Palin alone. There are worse people out there.

Samadai @865
Interesting...I never caught that. Good eye.

blocksmith @892
I have to really think about that one. Considering all that is going on there, you could be right.

Subwoofer @897
Santa isn't real and Canada is still the Blight....for now.

blocksmith @898
My friend it was the pattern that forced Tuon to say no to Rand. *points up* Someone (much kudos) already pointed out that it needed to happen that way.

forkroot @905
She is hot. And if she needs a job we could use her here in Michigan. Florida can have the pornstar.

Chriscot @934
If you are coming to the bunker do us a favor and let us know when you are showing up. We have thses lovely braclet/chocker combo for you. LOL

daverg @950
OMG I think I am going to pee my pants. LOL
Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahaha


As an aside I was just informed that no one is hot except my wife. I guess this means I won't becoming to the bunker later.
Torie Atkinson
992. Torie
@ 990 Lannis

Hello! *waves*

@ 988 Freelancer

I'm afraid your Enterprise model would need to be the size of a two-bedroom apartment

Okay! Sounds good, I'll get started.

I guess the UV is a downer, though. Do they have pills for that yet?

(Now I'm getting off-topic, so I moderate myself and go on my merry way.)
Wilson Grooms
993. rothaar
sps49@875 Your reminder about the unreliable nature of the Dominion bands makes me wonder if something similar might apply to Callandor. These are the only instances in which it seems as tho a link of 1 man and 2 women is mandatory (tho I'm not convinced this isn't just a minimal requirement for Callandor. Proceeding as tho it is in fact mandatory, however). What if something about the Callandor link exploits this same peculiarity, but instead of being designed to minimize it, as the Dominion Bands must have been, it is designed to maximize it? What if, in addition, it uses the same Dragon-soul-detection-weave that was used to ward it, such that when Rand wields it in a circle with 2 women, he can take over right away? It might even be that the ward around Callandor could only work around Callandor, not any other object, because it is tied to the Dragon soul itself and the ward accessed that connection.

subwoofer@885 Is there a competition for longest post or something? :) I'm trying to make it through all the comments here!

drewoftherushes@886 Mesaana giving a dream warning/leave order to the remaining BA is the best explanation I've heard so far for how quickly they were informed. Why would Egween be the only one who can enter Tel'aran'rhiod now? Did I miss something major?

endertek@924 So Norse heaven is like a multiplayer first person shooter with infinite lives?
T C
994. Freelancer
rothaar@993

Dominion bands => Domination bands. I know, nitpicky.

However, your comment to endertek, priceless.
Wilson Grooms
995. rothaar
Freelancer@981 I'm not arguing that your analysis of light, but the analogy to Balefire. I don't think we have any reason to think that Callandor's optical properties would translate to balefiric (yeah, I just made that word, what of it?) properties.

And if it did... wouldn't a rhombic cross section like that of a sword blade (I'm approximating here) act more like a prizm than... well, what optical element splits a beam rather than reflecting it like that? It sounds more like a jet of water incident on a wedge than any optical element I know of, but I'll wait for your response as optics isn't my area of specialty.
john mullen
996. johntheirishmongol
The Rand/LTT thing is easy. What is a person but the sum of their memories and how they interpret those? If that isn't a separate personality, what is? I don't think anything else needs to be argued.
Wilson Grooms
997. rothaar
Freelancer@994 Dag nabbit, I should have checked :)
Wilson Grooms
998. rothaar
I'm really confused as to why people think that it was Rand's ta'veren'ness that pulled Tuon and Iturulde. His ta'veren twisting isn't something he can direct. We've been beat over the head with this over and over. It isn't at his direction and it isn't something you feel and resist. You may notice it (if you are clever in the ways of the Pattern), but the only people who "feel" it are Mat and Perrin, because they are part of the tripod. Nobody before now who has made strange choices has talked about feeling themselves pushed. It just happens.

Iturulde responds to Rand the supremely confident natural leader. We've been hearing about his presence and naturally commanding presence as a separate phenomena from being Ta'veren for the entire series, practically.

Tuon is responding to this same aspect, but amplified, distorted, and corrupted by his exposure to the True Power.

Rand himself starts to make claims about being able to cause dire events through force of will, but we have no reason to believe that being a Ta'veren gives him this capability. It runs contrary to everything we know about how the Pattern uses ta'veren, not the other way around. This fact is the central reason Rand feels like his entire life is "in a box". The Pattern forces him, not the other way around.

Balthanon@634 and @738 You reference Egwene having a similar experience (to Tuon) in a previous book and resisting ta'veren pull. Can you be more specific? I don't remember this.
Darth Agilus
999. darth.agilus
Freelancer @979 - very well put. My feelings exactly.

daverg @971 - I could win a thousand dollars playing Russian Roulette. But that doesn't make it a good decision. As anyone who has followed baseball manager Dusty Baker knows, a good outcome doesn't equate to a good decision. Sometimes being right 1 in 5 times just adds fuel to the fire for fools (I probably fall in that category :)

Also Cads methods aren't clearly responsible for the change. Only Rand can be credited with that. She can be credited with breaking Rand though. I'm sure at this point she's thinking "what have I done?" and of course Tam and Min have clearly pointed out there was a better way.

@972 - actually Cads didn't uncover Semi. One of her 'angreal unintentionally disrupted Semi's weave. Luck on Cads part. Rand recognized Semi.

OH MY - There for the taking ... but I'm not worthy.
Henry Loose
1000. schrodinger
*clapclapclapclap* 9 days to get to a thousand posts... two thousand doesn't seem that unreasonable a target. Someone above mentioned Canada as the blight... not how it worked out in my Risk game, N. america became randland, asia-seanchan, madmen-australia, Aiel waste-S. america, shara-africa, and europe-blight (just the way it worked out).

edit: didn't mean for my measly post to be 1000... shoot.
R B
1001. MasterAlThor
973.

Very good. I cannot agree more. Please please oh light please let that be the prologue to ToM.

One more to hit 1000


Edit: Whoopsie...we already past 1000.
Jacy Clark
1002. Amalisa
lbrown@867

It could be that Mesaana was using a small weave of illusion to alter her appearance slightly (so it would be easier to mantain) when she was masquerading as an Aes Sedai. When Alviaron sees her here, she is seeing what Mesaana really looks like. But it reminds her of Mesaana's alter ego because the faces are similar.


Big weave, small weave. I don't think it would have mattered.

From Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 21, "A Mark":

Startled, Alviarin found herself with her begging hands stretched up toward a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green. A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years. She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters, though no Chosen she had met showed any sign of agelessness, but she could not match that face to any name. And she realized something else, as well. That face was afraid. Hiding it, but afraid.


Some exposition about the Dark Lord, Lurks and the Black Ajah, then...

Shaking visibly, the Chosen opened her mouth, perhaps to plead, but suddenly black fire flashed around her, and she screamed as her clothing fell away to dust. Bands of black flame bound her arms to her sides, wrapped tight around her legs, and a seething ball of black appeared in her mouth, forcing her jaws wide. She writhed there, standing naked and helpless, and the look in her rolling eyes made Alviarin want to soil herself.


Conversation between the Dark Lord and Alviarin... he marks her... gives her the charge of finding and delivering to him the ones searching for the Black Ajah...

Mesaana began to thrash in her bonds, keening shrilly past the gag in her mouth. "Go now," he said, "if you wish to live another hour." The sound coming from Mesaana rose to a despairing scream.


Nowhere in all of the foregoing (including the parts outside of the quotes) indicated that Mesaana changed her appearance in any way. Alviarin knew she should have gone face down on the floor but was unable to do so she would have seen if there had been a change and, considering the intricacy of her internal monologue through this passage and afterward, I think there would have been some mention of it.

I don't know why she was wearing white in the current prologue. Perhaps she is masquerading as a novice now, although I really find that a little far-fetched. Maybe it's because, in the WoT-land culture, white is the color of mourning, and she's still being punished for her failure. Could be it's just a red herring, to make us wonder. Light knows, there have been others! Olver and Taimandred immediately come to mind...

Oh, well... we'll have our answers in a year!
john mullen
1003. johntheirishmongol
BTW, This seems like a lot of posts until you take a look at a sports board. The mlive.com/lions board, which is about the worst team in the history in the NFL, is up to post 794,750 and that doesnt count all the sub posts that go underneath it.
Darth Agilus
1004. darth.agilus
I got something cool that made me re-evaluate the earlier books. Perhaps I’m slow but I always struggled with the change from early portrayals of the AS as supremely capable, intelligent, and wise to later books where they just didn’t have the same poise and competency. Seemed like convenient writing to raise up new characters at the expense of consistency. But with TGS it makes sense to me.

The AS have an aura of capability, intelligence, and wisdom mostly created by cultivating respect and authority with everyone else and based on the abilities and work of AS thousands of years in the past. Its all an illusion. There is a distinct difference between their aura and reality.

Their image breaks down anytime a character or group spends significant time with them. From Rand to Mat, Wise Ones to the Kin. Its because the reality doesn’t compare with the legend. The FS aren’t just being arrogant and underestimating when they mock the AS as children and say they aren’t a threat (at least until Egwene’s awesomeness they weren’t). They can’t match up with the WO or WF, maybe even the Kin. Even their most legendary living AS, comes out as arrogant, foolish, hypocritical, and incompetent in this book.

But now I know why. 20% of the WT is BA, and they have a significant hold on positions of power. The WT isn’t a threat to the Shadow. The WT is an unwitting tool of the Shadow and always has been. A tool too useful to destroy. I mean I’ve always known the BA were present but it’s a big jump from spies and saboteurs to hidden leadership. Its like a computer infested by a hacker. It can still do its normal routines, completely oblivious to its disease. But the computer will do whatever the hacker needs, even to destroying itself.

All the info I’ve learned about the AS now makes sense. The BA influence on relations with Hawkwing; other strange WT behaviors described in the centuries after that; the ability and daring to abduct, torture and kill an Amyrlin; the splitting of the tower; the treatment of common people and rulers; the rules for channeling men that are incompatible with the DR; the lack of preparation for the DR and LB, the false dragons; even the bizarre rules concerning wilders, initiation, and novice ages. Splitting the tower wasn’t a bold, risky move for the BA but a continuation of a pattern of control.

And of course, AS are arrogant and demanding while being ineffectual because that’s the way the Shadow wanted them. You’ll be our front man while we prepare for the LB and when the time comes to throw you to the side, we’ll make sure you are no threat.

Too bad they didn’t count on the Two Rivers.
Sydo Zandstra
1005. Fiddler
Regarding Callandor's protecting weaves in the Stone of Tear:

I'm in the camp thinking those weaves were attuned to the Dragon Reborn ('s soul). Be'lal was waiting for Rand to pull the Sword. If it were mere saidin and saidar weaves, Be'lal could have gone at it on his own. He did have some Black Sisters at hand there.

He did seem to have been studying the weaves, IIRC.
Thomas Keith
1006. insectoid
1000 already?? Hokey Smokes, Bullwinkle! (As if there weren't enough cartoon references already.)

I'd post my thoughts on the book, but I'm afraid they'll get lost in this swamp! ;D
Henry Loose
1007. schrodinger
darth.agilus @1004

technically, they didn't count on Moiraine... if she had never gone to the two rivers, nothing would have happened and the shadow would have won (see Rand's portal stone experience).


just to be nit-picky.
:-)
Darth Agilus
1008. darth.agilus
kab1 @818 - eloquent? You must mean that for the others - but thank you.
Wilson Grooms
1010. endertek
959: Aneid
You made me snort out loud!!! Thanks
R B
1011. MasterAlThor
jtim @1003

BTW, This seems like a lot of posts until you take a look at a sports board. The mlive.com/lions board, which is about the worst team in the history in the NFL, is up to post 794,750 and that doesnt count all the sub posts that go underneath it.


Why you gotta pick on the Lions? And just to correct you the worst team was the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Matthew Smith
1012. blocksmith
Torie@975
This is Randland, so please save your reality-based political discussions for another forum. Tor.com is not the place for it.

Not my intention to rile feathers or cause dischord. And I certainly don't want to be balefired/removed from the posts.

The discussion started from comparing real places to the Blight, Shayol Ghul, etc. and expanded to adding real people to corresponding DO Randland positions.

Moving on...

Daverg@971

Cadsuane has demonstrated repeatedly her ability to help and hurt Rand. Her actions warrant some level of trust from Rand (another example of helping, she was there when Rand needed healing and transporation after being slashed by Padan Fain although she did not perform the actual healing). But I have to agree with others, from Rand's somewhat unbalanced standpoint, the escape of Semirhage and the actual collaring with the Domination Bands was a mistake of massive proportions. I could compare it to some real-world political mistakes, but I now know that would be...my mistake of massive proportions. I did not find his reaction overblown...nor even overly dramatic. I think she truly needed to believe her life in danger for her to leave. And at that point, Rand needed her gone.
Sam Mickel
1013. Samadai
Damn, do you guys know how many names I have to add to my tor.com story because of this post.
T C
1014. Freelancer
darth.agilus@1004

Too bad they didn’t count on the Two Rivers.

They didn't count on the Old Blood of Manetheren.


blocksmith@1012

I feel bad for Cadsuane on one tiny point. Shaidar Haran busted her wards on the box containing the Domination Band. No wards would have been intricate enough, no protections thorough enough. Rand has many good reasons to be upset with her, but just as with the Spanish Inquisition, nobody expects SuperFade.
Wilson Grooms
1015. Tabernerus
I agree with whoever said that banishing Cadsuane was justified. The collaring incident with Semirhage was damn near disastrous for all of creation. I think it's fair to say that a screw-up on that scale deserves a certain amount of punishment.

Another thing I notices (and liked): The "Bathed in Light" epilogue serves as a time stamp. It clearly aligns the Egwene and Rand arcs as being roughly cotemporaneous. The cute part is that Egwene actually says to mark the date for later comparison. I just thought it was cute.

Finally, on a more philosophical note: Whether from the Moridin leakage into his own head, or simply because he's a bright guy under a ton of pressure, Rand genuinely considers Ishamael's position that going over to the Shadow and ending the wheel is the only logical thing to do.

I find this interesting because in their little Fireside Chat scene, Moridin basically says that on a long enough time scale, the Shadow is guaranteed victory. If infinite Light wins can happen without ending the war, but all it takes is a single Shadow win, then as n (number of cycles of the wheel) gets bigger, the odds of the Shadow winning get bigger. I'm not a math guy, and this is just off the top of my head, but I suspect the odds asymptotically approach 1. Given that, if you thought for a minute that you were doomed to a potential eternity of being spun out to fight this epic battle full of tremendous horrors, either as the Light's champion or the Shadow's champion, wouldn't killing the wheel and ending the game actually seem like a logical option?

I guess what I'm saying is that TGS actually made me feel like I understood and could relate to Moridin. And that's a tough sell, and a sign that Jordan and Sanderson know their stuff.
Linden H
1016. Lynd
jrmywvr @718
Also, I had a random thought about the whole who has to serve who re: crystal throne and DR. The Seanchan say the Dragon has to kneel before the crystal throne and Moiraine said the Dragon would bind the Nine Moons to serve him. (...) What if, and here's the random part, they are both fulfilled by (are you ready for this?) Rand and Tuon--and some third female channeler--being linked with callandor

I had the same thought after finishing TGS. Rand would have to "bow" to For(tuon)a in that only a woman can initiate a link, but Rand would have "bound" her in that if men are included in circles, they lead them (I believe). Also, we have a Crystal sword and a Crystal Throne -- coincidence?

(Really hoping I'm not covering already-covered ground as I've been absent from WOT discussions for nearly 10 years, despite much frantic forum reading these past few months in attempt to catch up!)
Wilson Grooms
1017. Scottie-Don't
sweet ass book, although i wish rand hadn't been a baby at the end and actually gone through with his lone stand against the Seanchan...Also i don't see why no one seems to like rand's scheme with Graendal was really clever.
this book was great. i could hardly stop reading it even when responsibilities demanded it of me.
Daniel Berdine
1018. rothaar
Samadai@1013 tor.com story?


A thought about Rand's new sword. I might be displaying my ignorance here, but I just noticed at http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Arad_Doman that Arad Doman's flag has a one handed sword on it. Do we know what the story there is?
Daniel Berdine
1019. rothaar
Lynd@1016 I like the symmetry of Crystal Sword/Throne, except for the fact that the Crystal Throne seems like a rather nasty ter'angreal, to me. It seems to have the feature of forcing true loyalty on those who kneel before it. This is a form of compulsion. The Oath Rod does the same thing more explicitly, and was only used in the Age of Legends on criminals. Other than that, we have Domination bands and a'dam as objects of power used for compulsion. Not auspicious company, especially when you consider that the current use of the Oath Rod may very well be a result of Ishamael's early influence on the Tower. I find it hard to believe that the Throne, which I see as evil, is linked to Callandor, which was constructed to serve the Dragon against the Shadow.
Tyler Durden
1020. Balance
I am definitely late to the post, but I don’t think it will matter. This thread is going to be huge.

Rand: -- I loved this arc. Don’t get me wrong, I liked Rand as the Shepard Figure. However, I found seeing him turn cold fascinating. And lets be honest, how many of you were actually a bit scared when Rand confronted Cads? I’ll kill you just by willing it. Holy shit!

“And yet, meeting his eyes, she did believe. Against all logic, she looked in those eyes and knew that if she didn’t leave, she would die”.

I think this was a fantastic scene, beginning to end. I’ll admit I thought Min would buy it. I’m ashamed to say I had to stop at points in these chapters and look up through the window, like the little boy in “The Never-ending Story”. (and now you have that theme music in yer head, your welcome J ) da da da, da da da, da da da, da da da.

I also relished to scene where he returns to the “dream chamber de la Ishy.” These were some of my favorites during the first three books. It was done well. However, I did miss Jordan’s subtlty. A little slower on that one would have made it epic. Still very well written with the two of them talking as old friends.

I don’t usually get really surprised in books any more, but the Tam chapter caught me. I figured the whole thing was about Rand remembering the dead girl he tried to resurrect, then BAM! That was good misdirection, BS caught me napping.

Mat: -- I agree, he wasn’t dead on. The buddy comedy with Tals didn’t quite fit. However I did like the Village Story. That was a new way to direct a scene of “bubbles of evil”. I mean you gotta compete with TSR. Possessed axe, the playing cards, and (the best) mirror Rands. I enjoy these random encounters. The tent one with Rand and Cads was good, but meh, TSR, FTW.

Callandor and the stone: From the Aiel Ancesdortron we remember the female AS talking about teaming up with a few male AS that “were not far touched by the taint” in order to create the wards to protect the sword. Well they couldn’t put it in the stone if the stone wasn’t built. So it’s feasible for there to be both female and male AS creating the wards on Callandor and creating the stone.

Lots more on my mind but I can’t keep up with this thread enough to comment on it all.
T C
1021. Freelancer
balance@1020

Clarification on Callandor. Solinda Sedai and her sisters were waiting for the young male "barely tainted" channelers, in order to create the Eye of the World. It is specifically stated that "The sword must wait". Since we learn from Moiraine's study of history that all of the channelers who were involved in creating the Eye died in doing so, none of those involved on that day could have warded Callandor. Nor could they have built the Stone, which didn't come until after the Breaking.
Sam Mickel
1022. Samadai
Rothar@1018

On one of the rereads of Fires of Heaven(I think) I made up a silly story using all the regular posters names taking place in the WoT. I do that because I rarely have any thing to say that usually hasn't been said by others. I have done other stories on other threads as well.
Drew Riley
1023. drewoftherushes
rothaar@993 - Unless I'm not remembering correctly, the ter'angreal Sheriam stole included the original dream ring and most of the copies of that ring. Egwene mentions that the only one she has is a copy of a copy or something like that. It might be the one Siuan has. She also mentions that Elayne will have trouble copying that one because it's already so removed from the original. So without the ter'angreal, nobody has access to Tel'aran'rhiod but Egwene, because she's the only AS who's been naturally dreaming herself in. And I guess they have the one other ter'angreal, Siuan's. I could definitely be wrong - anyone?
T C
1024. Freelancer
drew

Sounds right. We know that Sheriam recovered all but one of the dreaming devices she promised, because she only lost one finger.


Edit: Hey, Subwoofer. You can have your x-hundred post happy dances. I got 2^10, uh-huh.

Geeks unite!

Did you know there are 10 types of people in the world? Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Barry T
1025. blindillusion
Thought I'd throw down on what I think would make an excellent Prologue to Book 13:

When the Wheel Gives

Prologue to The Towers of Midnight

It begins with Lan riding through the Borderlands. He wonders at all the commoners migrating north towards the Blight, some with everything they own. Behind him is a small army. His section ends with him riding up to the gates of Fal Dara.

The next section involves Min, Cads, Tam et al getting worried because Rand has not come back yet. Min knows he's safe and wonders at his emotions. Tam continues telling Cads about her mistakes. This section ends with Min making a BIG discovery in her books. Min says, “I know the answer.” Dun dun dun.... and the Seals shall break!!!

The next section shows Demandred's fearful thoughts about not being able to channel. He dislikes the city he's in but cannot leave his “role” with the Westlanders he's attached himself to. He thinks about what it must have been like for Asmo in those last moments as Graendal walked towards him. His section ends as a man with a gray top-knot hurries towards him with news of their emissary to Rand al'Thor . LOL wouldn't that just upset so many people if that's how we found out who killed Asmo?

The next section is Rand doing his walkabout. He's calmer. He's thoughtful. He's on the right path. He's feeling good. He's passing out lollipops and ass-whoppings and he's all out of lollipops. His section ends with one of the Traveling People handing him a cup of tea and he thanks her with a smile on his face.

And the last section involves Moiraine looking out a window at a twisted landscape. She tries to channel even though she knows it's useless. The blocks on her Power are too strong. As she looks out the window she thinks: It's almost time.

Enjoy
Sam Mickel
1026. Samadai
Blindillusion@1025,

I like it but unlike Nynaeve I think that Lans army is going to be huge. If she can get 3 random guys to join him in a small village with 1500 miles to go and an unknown amount of places for him to ride by I'm betting Lan ends up with at least a couple hundred thousand soldiers.
Alice A
1027. Wetlandernw
Wow, people. This is nuts. I really want to catch up on the comments, but... we've broken 1000???? And this is only my second post? Oy. I've been trying to read through all the comments with actual substance, but I'm only up to about 200. *sigh* You people are crazy. ;)
john mullen
1028. johntheirishmongol
Master Al'Thor - as a long time, long suffering Lions fan, I get to do that since they are the only team to go 0-16 in one season. I agree the Bucs were horrible by going 0-26, and the Saints were almost as bad, but that was over seasons.
T C
1029. Freelancer
I see your Lions, and raise you the Raiders. When will Al Davis just dry up and blow away, so the team can go back to being excellent?
Sam Mickel
1030. Samadai
Wetlandernw@1027,

You know us well, you joined us in crazy a long time ago
Darth Agilus
1031. darth.agilus
daverg @971 - forgot to mention earlier. You were right. Cads has done some things to justify trust. Not necessarily enough to balance her slyness and rough edges, IMO, but props where they're due. Those are also the reasons I had mixed feelings about her prior to TGS. Hopefully she'll right herself in ToM.

freelancer @1014 - LOL - so lets put her on the rack! I know. I know. Its a dishrack. Just put her on it anyway.
Wilson Grooms
1032. stargazer
Remember, folks, the prologue for ToM is going to be the other half of the prologue Jordan wrote for AMOL. I suspect most of it will be chronologically earlier than the endpoint of the timeline in TGS.

Here's my new wacky theory on creating the wards for Callandor: We know from the Bowl of the Winds that at least some ter'angreal can channel saidin on their own even when used only by saidar-wielders. Could such items have once been more common in the Age of Legends? We already know they had a worldwide power grid of standing flows to let non-channelers use most ter'angreal... I can easily imagine some sort of saidin-based power tool (The Acme Insta-ward-o-matic? On sale now for only $99.95 at your local SaiMart SuperStore! Come on down for epic savings at our Going Out of Civilization sale!) which lasted for at least a while after the Tainting. Oh, eventually it would become broken and corrupt, but maybe some few devices could last long enough to help out with the necessary guarding.
Wilson Grooms
1033. endertek
968 Freelancer

I found the reference in WOTFAQ under 3.02 Norse Mythology:
"Heimdall's Horn: Heimdall's job was to guard the Rainbow bridge into Asgard against the Giants. During the Last Battle (Ragnarok), he was to blow the horn Gjall to signal the arrayed gods and dead heroes that it was time to fight. cf. Horn of Valere. Granted, there are differences - the Heroes are bound to the Horn and not to a specific cause, and they live in T'A'R rather than the afterlife as such (where they'd fight all day, cutting each other to pieces, then get healed at day's end. Always got a kick out of that - sounds like a real heavenly afterlife to me), but the concept of dead heroes waiting around for the final battle stays the same.
Wilson Grooms
1034. endertek
993 Rothaar
Yes - just like that :)
Wilson Grooms
1035. David-2
Nobody seems to have mentioned this yet (I searched the page for "hands") but:

When Rand ends up on top of Dragonmount to do some serious thinking he is said to put his elbows on his knees and his head in his hands.

Seems like an oversight by Sanderson.
Darth Agilus
1036. darth.agilus
Contemplating Cadsuane's culpability ...

Did anyone else realize that SH frees Semi and gives her the Domination Bands after Cads shows Sorilea and Bair where she keeps them? Not only that, they sit in the room and watch her undo her splendiferous, super-secret new booby-trap weave.

Is Bair or Sorilea a DF?

Add to that the strange chapter title "A Box Opens". Lame if its just about the actual box but uber-foreshadowing if its refering to Rand's box-phobia, and Cads has just opened it for a DF.

Additionally you have the unnecessary digression into the specifics of the trap and innovating weaves. "Who knew what knowledge the Forsaken had."

Hmmmm. Very disturbing.
Roger Powell
1037. forkroot
BlindIllusion@1025
The next section shows Demandred's fearful thoughts about not being able to channel. He dislikes the city he's in but cannot leave his “role” with the Westlanders he's attached himself to.
Suddenly he senses saidan being channeled - an impossible amount, even more than that wretched Al'Thor channeled when saidan was cleansed.

He runs from the city until he can open a gateway to a field in Cairhien right near a huge excavation. As he suspected, the sphere of the male Choedan Kal is glowing brilliantly. He descends into the pit and comes to the base of the statue. He begins to run his hands along it, trying to sense how he might interrupt the flow.

He is still running his hands along it when the Choedan Kal explodes.
Drew Riley
1038. drewoftherushes
Got you all beat. Browns fan. And Indians, and Cavs -- disappointment all around.

Good catch, David-2@1035, I saw that, forgot to mention it.

By the way, I haven't read posts 300-650, but has anyone mentioned BELA'S TRIUMPHANT RETURN!!!!
Jacy Clark
1039. Amalisa
darth.agilus@1036

Is Bair or Sorilea a DF?


One of the Wise Ones almost has to be. For the sake of a wow-where-did-that-come-from twist, if nothing else. Of the two you mentioned, I'd be more inclined to think Bair would be.
Henry Loose
1040. schrodinger
don't even talk: cubs fan.

@1038 how could we miss the most important part of the book?!?!? In the words of a Mr. Simpson "D'oh!"
William Fettes
1041. Wolfmage
Doomriders @497
“Rand just had information of the forsaken and LTT(holes filled via the mat route), he then let that information to create a voice in his head.”

It’s nothing like the Mat route. The Mat route is having the Finns inject battle memories from random foreigners into your brain. Rand’s LTT memories are from his soul’s previous incarnation; they properly belong to Rand’s global identity as the Dragon.

Mat does have some inherent memories, such as his one flashback scene when he is getting healed and his fluency with the old tongue, but that is due to the old blood and the healing/dagger and is quite limited. He has no large swathe of memories from his past lives, unless one of his ancestors made it to the ToG by pure coincidence.

lbrown @ 530

“I thought that the debates would be over. It clearly says that Lews Therin had never been there in the first place. To me, that defintely clears up this issue. Rand realized that Lews Therin was him and there had never been a separate entity from himself in his head. Now, I believe Rand accepts that Lews Therin is him and also Lews Therin's experiences are his, as well, that's why he had the "second chance" thought.”

Why would it clear it up? You have to already presuppose the construct theory in order to assume that’s the only explanation for Rand’s reconciliation / unification at the end of the book. After all, the real theory is based on there being one single soul, so it is entirely sensible to think of them as always being the same in that sense.

To understand what I mean by this, you need to think about what the word identity means in a circular cosmology such as WoT’s. Within such a cosmology, you can speak about identity in reference to your particular thread in a particular Age, of course, but you can also speak about the identity of your soul’s overall incarnations. For most ordinary Randlanders, it’s probably easier to think of their particular threads as the most important facet of their identity, as the overall identity is obscure to us and may not even have unified characteristics. But for heroes of the horn, at least, this overall identity isn’t at all obscure. Indeed, we get direct exposure to this overall identity in the form of the global composite personalities we see of Birgitte in and out of TAR and the other heroes in tGH.

So, ask yourself why should these heroes have so many similarities between their lives if they were spun out as blank slates each time? You could invoke the pattern, maybe, but I think the best explanation must involve the essence of their soul showing through their current incarnation – ie. the soul’s identity. After all, that's got to be a reason they were chosen as heroes in the first place - otherwise the pattern could have anyone do what it wanted. Now, the global personality of heroes of the horn waiting in TAR isn’t a 'natural' state in material reality, as we can infer with Birgitte having many of her memories fading, but we can at least conclude that there is something about the overall identity which is expressed in the real world at least for heroes.

When you accept that conceptual background, it’s easy to interpret what Rand was talking about: he's referring to his soul’s identity. You can see Freelancer’s posts for a very eloquent explanation of the inner reconciliation that occurs and the demons that Rand was exercising in relation to Ilyena.

darth.agilus @790

“Ummm this seems pretty blatant. Rand is assimilating not only LTT but all his past lives at this point. He is becoming the penultimate Dragon, like Hawkwing or Brigit in TAR, completely aware and at peace with all previous lives, instead of fractured, one life bleeding into another. It hardly makes sense that this is just him getting more crazy at this point, right before LTT disappears.”

Exactly. I find it funny that the constructors sweep right past this and focus only on the single line which they think proves the theory. Admittedly, that line can be read to suggest LTT was never in Rand's head, but that is not what the context of the sequence implies. That interpretation confuses Rand’s statement as a statement about Rand separate identity from the voice since LTT became present, whereas it is most likely a statement about Rand’s identity as the Dragon over many lifetimes of the Wheel. That’s what ‘never’ means here; not never since I started wondering whether LTT’s voice was real, but never as in never ever.

”Seems like the argument against LTT being real mostly comes from people uncomfortable with suspending their disbelief, lacking a logical framework to make it believable.”

I’m really not sure why the construct theory is so popular except for a fact that it would be a major subversion of expectations, and the WoT community thrives on subversive possibilities like that. Plus, there’s also Fight Club, Heroes, and United States of Tara which have every man and their dog thinking that fully distinct multi-personalities can be grown just as a simple matter of putting the mind in a cocktail glass and shaking.

I’ve outlined my major problem with the construct theory many times in past threads, and I won’t re-visit those arguments now. But I will add one point that I find fatally flawed about the theory: it conflates cognition with memory. Both theories must accept that LTT’s memories are real, but only the constructors think it is sensible for Rand to take LTT’s memories as input and turn them into cognitive VMWare so as to create a LTT’s agency so plausibly. Cognition as shown by LTT on many occasions couldn't be ad hoc simulated by Rand.
Wilson Grooms
1042. Planeswalker
@Free

Oops, i stand corrected. can't have the book with me everyday.. damn, gotta give time to have these re-read now... :)
Roger Powell
1043. forkroot
WolfMage@1041
As one of the more eloquent posters on this forum, it's rare to see a slip from you:
You can see Freelancer’s posts for a very eloquent explanation of the inner reconciliation that occurs and the demons that Rand was exercising in relation to Ilyena.
I'm sure you meant "exorcising".

The problem is that now I can't shake this hilarious mental image of Rand standing in a health club holding a whip over several ugly horned creatures as they toil away on their stationary exercise bikes.
James Zema
1044. Balthanon
You know, there is one thing about Elaida being captured that I'm going to miss seeing. The moment where she somehow learns that Rand is Tigraine's son and realizes that she wasted the last 20 or 30 years of her life chasing after the wrong Andoran royal family. :)

1035. David-2
Nobody seems to have mentioned this yet (I searched the page for "hands") but:

When Rand ends up on top of Dragonmount to do some serious thinking he is said to put his elbows on his knees and his head in his hands.

Seems like an oversight by Sanderson.


That isn't an issue-- sit cross-legged and put your elbows on your knees, your hands should be in a good place to serve as a resting place for your head. Folding your hands together and resting your chin on your hands is a thoughtful position and about as comfortable as you're going to get without furniture and not laying down.
Linden H
1045. Lynd
rothaar @1019
Good point, re: the nature of the Throne; something that manipulates one's emotions or loyalties without one's input or control does not bode well for its use by the Light...
Henry Loose
1046. schrodinger
Balthanon @1044

I believe he was talking about Rand only having one hand, not the comfortability of the position.
Wilson Grooms
1047. stargazer
darth.agilus@1036
Is Bair or Sorilea a DF?

oh, ouch. Either of those would really hurt to find out.

There's a maybe-relevant Min viewing in TPOD 29, when Sorilea brings in her four captive AS to swear to Rand:
Suddenly an aura flashed, blue and yellow tinged with green, encompassing them all. And Min knew its meaning....'They will serve you, each in her fashion, Rand.".... Sorilea would serve him? Suddenly Min wondered exactly what "in her fashion" meant.

While at first that seems to suggest Sorilea's on Rand's side, remember that one of those who served "in her fashion" was Elza... Hmmm, another puzzle to ponder for the next year!


@1044 Balthanon: The issue is not the comfort of the position, it's the number of hands...
Wilson Grooms
1048. endertek
543. Jeff Dougan and Pattack

Regarding which FS led Masema astray - wouldn't it most likely be Semirhage as that letter from Suroth was found in his tent allowing the bearer to command whatever aid he needed from the Ever Victorious Army? Semi was "Anath" - Tuon's Truth Speaker. She had access to Suroth and could extract this letter from her rather easily. Then again, we saw Graendal as a master forger with the King's letters. I think it is very unlikely that Demandred was corrupting Masema. IMHO, it had to be Semi, if anyone.
john massey
1049. subwoofer
WHAT IN THE NINE HELLS??? We hit 1000 and my computer didn't explode?!!! I was expecting the Fourth of July here! #@$$%##! That's what happens when the people you hire to do field work are actually tools. Have to leave your office, go straighten things out and we break 1000 here. GAAAAAAAAAAA.

@thewindrose- thanks for the thoughts:) Here we are and I'm not gonna to let this milestone slide! WEEEEE!

@1038dew- sorry dude! Glad to celbrate Bela's return, but that was me @593. Siuan is slowly growing on me for her practicality in horse flesh;)

@M A T- whaddaya mean Santa isn't real? I didn't get that memo! Who's the guy that leaves stuff under my tree every year? Careful, I'm tellin' ya, lump of coal for Christmas- it sucks:)

@Rothaar- yes there is a competition- talk to the official judge- Wetlandernw guru extraordinaire- who was keeping track of everything. I believe that Free went and published a book one time for his post, but yours was definitely up there.

@Free- Yes-GEEKS UNITE! Go for Stereo!!!


Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1050. Tonybere
First question: when is the next book due out?!?!?!
Next, in the words of our lovely LeighDB, I am soooo not reading 1100 posts! Therefore I will make my comments generic and not to do with the previous comments.
I found that Mr. Sanderson's style was fairly easy to distinguish from Jordan's having read the previous 11 books several times. That said, it was still very good. Having read the Mistborn Trilogy in anticipation of this release I saw the commonalities. The shorter chapters (making for a quicker read), the less-detailed descriptions (also making for a quicker read!), the fact that 2 consecutive chapters rarely furthered the same storyline and the use of more "modern" or less formal dialogue.
That last was my only let-down point in the last scene with Verin. She didn't quite read like herself. But again, I am quite appreciative of Sanderson for the chance to read the story at all.
Other than that, I am only disappointed by the fact that I am finished the book and now have to wait an interminable amount of time for the next installment!
john massey
1051. subwoofer
@Torie- u r still the bestest! Ever! And Leigh is too:) Way to keep the hooligans in line. Dissin' the homeland, grrrrrr.

Was thinking that Randland is more like Europe, a hodge podge of countries. The borders have changed every year, Britain is Tremalking, and North America is the land taken over by Hawkwing's armies. Asia is Shara, and Bob is your Uncle for the rest. Look at the map yo, I can almost see the Italian boot...

Edit-@toybere, c'mon, ya just read a book the size of five regular novels and you are gonna cop out on a few small posts;) Cowboy up! There is some good reading in there! Hoping gives you the secret to life and goat cheese in his post...

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1052. Chriscot
@ 1035 - there's also a line (but maybe in Knife of Dreams) where Rand's POV refers to his hands, and immediately adds that he still thinks that way, even though he's just got one hand now. I figured RJ was smart enough to realize he'd slip on it sooner or later, and was putting in the explanation early. :)

Wetlander et. al. - yes, we crazy.

Amalisa @ 1039 - I really have a hard time believing any of the Aiel dreamwalkers are Darkfriends. Or Sorilea. It'd be pretty devastating, if so.

Drewoftherushes @1023 - In addition to Egwene, the Aiel Dreamwalkers (Amys, Melaine, Bair) can access TAR. Elayne and Aviendha still have their ter'angreal, too, and the Tower *might* still have some left. At the least, Elayne's reclaimed many of those that the Black Ajah took (when the Caemlyn crew was captured in Knife of Dreams). But TAR may well be more dangerous, with that many more DFs having access, especially if Mesaana teaches them about TAR.

@973 - love it, rofl. But I think the Creator would use more profanity in this case. There's only so much headdesking you can do before the lumps on your forehead demand it.

Masteralthor@ 991: who says I'm not already there...behind you!! Mwah-hah-hah-hah!

I hope your choker matches my black and red color scheme.

Aneid @ 977 - agreed with you on Cads and her demeaning of folks - the Far Madding-esque "boy" is grating, but then Aes Sedai in general (and Wise Ones, too?) generally refer to everyone else as children, and it's annoying. However: Cads generally gets results. Rather than get drawn into a feud between Aes Sedai on the eve of the Last Battle, she's apparently put together a coalition of Aes Sedai to be effective - perhaps a few hundred of them. She's responsible for Rand's freedom in Far Madding, and for enabling the cleansing of the Taint. W/o her and her forces Rand and Nynaeve would've been toast. Her advice for Rand, most of the time, has been good - generally consisting of things like "stand by your word", "don't be rude", etc. Yep, she's arrogant and hypocritical, and Tam's words to her are my favorite - "a bully is a bully." But she's done a lot of good, and given good advice, and her arrogance and mishandling of Rand are no worse than Moiraine's or the Wise Ones in the Shadow Rising and the Fires of Heaven. Remember the WOs thinking they could just throw a pretty girl at him and control him? That was as dumb and disrespectful as anything Cads has done.
Wilson Grooms
1053. Chriscot
Me @1052 - warn people about the Wall of Text. Sorry, all.

Darth @ 1004 - yeah, the Aes Sedai reputation is as much illusion as reality, but to project the image is impressive work in itself. Overall, I think you're too hard on the AS. I've liked, in recent books, seeing things like the Black Ajah hunters being competent and risk-taking; Tarna and Pevara innovating on Reds bonding Warders; the Ajah head conspiracy and too-young Sitter conspiracy, as evidence that AS *are* good at politicking, etc. I'm actually glad, despite always being an Egwene fan, that neither she nor Siuan ever figured out that the Sitters who "fled" from the Tower, minus Janya, weren't really on their side but were plants. Says alot that those 5 Sitters had everyone thinking they were controlled by Romanda and Lelaine, including Romanda, Lelaine, Egwene, AND Siuan. They were skilled and subtle, it seems.

Also, as Alanna tells Rand, there have been fewer wars and less bloody ones because of the White Tower, and it kept civilization and the Prophecies alive and helped humanity survive the Trolloc wars. The Tower's not been so much in the Shadow's control as you suggest; and the Shadow's invested so much effort in it because the Tower is potentially such a danger.
john massey
1054. subwoofer
Caddy good or bad? hmmmmmmmmm. Well, she did have her moments in the past, and she did remind Rand that he is still human despite all his trappings and titles. She also as much as admits that what she was doing was deliberate to get Rand to be interested in her and what she had to teach. Where she went sideways is not taking her own advice and wrapping herself in her own legendary status.

I can somewhat relate to Caddy's lack of patience in dealing with some of the Sisters and Rand- as I get older, I find my patience diminishes in regards to suffering fools. Caddy is much the same, she has a very low BS meter, and really dishes it out to "Sisters" who forget their place.

Teaching Rand to laugh is one thing, now Rand views everything as a box, a trap. There is little trust in him and no tolerance for basic human relations. I do not know if that is his viewpoint as a result of the betrayal of the AS by trapping him and beating him, by Caddy letting Semi get a collar on him, or by Rand's disillusionment with all the fawning nobles and sycophants around him.

Caddy really has an uphill battle now. Maybe what Rand really needs is love. He is bonded to three women now, and yet he keeps them all at arms' length. ENEMA have to break down that initial barrier before anything else can happen to help Rand.

Woof™.
William Fettes
1055. Wolfmage
forkroot @ 1043

"As one of the more eloquent posters on this forum, it's rare to see a slip from you:

I'm sure you meant "exorcising"."

Yep, you got me there. :D

"The problem is that now I can't shake this hilarious mental image of Rand standing in a health club holding a whip over several ugly horned creatures as they toil away on their stationary exercise bikes."

LOL! Can always count on the WoT community to bring the ruckus with hilarious mental imagery.
T C
1056. Freelancer
I still suggest that Cadsuane could not have prevented Semirhage from getting the Domination Band (male a'dam), since very likely it was Shaidar Haran who undid her wards and took it. As much as she has been deserving a good thumping for awhile, for her to get it because of this is just a bit, well, undeserved. And Chaos builds.

On the other hand, I would have loved to see Tam ramp up that tirade about 3x and really lay into her. Going on about civility whene Rand nearly kills his father, and is about to wipe out an entire city...

Grip. Get one!
john massey
1057. subwoofer
Well, I guess three questions have to be asked then.

1. How did the super fade know that Caddy had the Domination Band?

2. Did Caddy flashing her box- get your mind out of the gutter folks- around let people know that she was holding something important- ie, the time she flashed the contents to whatsherpickle?

3. Why didn't she pull a Rand and Travel to some place like Rhuidean and hide the darn stuff in a wall or somewhere far removed from a powerful male channeler like Rand?

Edit- It is very rude of me to not welcome all the new posters-"ltlftp" to the group- fresh ideas and insights raise the quality of discussions on this post beyond what I have seen on other sites. Well done!

Woof™.
Darth Agilus
1058. darth.agilus
Chriscot @1053

nice reposte. I would counter that the number of wars and success of the Trolloc wars is irrelevant to the Shadow in the grand scheme, if the goal is to turn the DR and unmake the pattern. Also a certain level of civ benefits the Shadow as they need a certainty about what the DR learns. Loathing himself as a result of civilization's teachings on the DR is a great start you must admit. Also I didn't mean the Shadow has complete control over the tower. There is a certain level of competency from individuals and groups that can be accepted. After all what does the Ajah head consipiracy really accomplish? They even admit they were an utter failure. As long as the BA controlled Elaida (or were assured of her lunacy) and had enough Hall votes, they were assured to keep the tower divided and ineffective. Heck if it weren't for the Seanchan and their super-secret raid the Tower still wouldn't be whole. Then compare the WT successes against my littany of failures. Seems to me it favors the Shadow.

Another point for the pattern helped Tuon resist Rand theory!

subwoofer @1054 - "There is little trust in [Rand]"

Heck yeah. For all his insanity that's one of his better points, especially if you accept that Bair or Sorilea is a DF. Very few characters seriously accept that anyone they can meet is a DF. Only Rand, Suian, Moraine, Elayne, Egwene, Nyn, and now the BA hunters do so. In reality, as Rand has seen, not only might they be DFs but its certain one or more of your closest associates realy is a DF. Justified paranoia. Thankfully, Egwene and the hunters have hit on a solution (although I agreed with someone's earlier suggestion of a necessary 4th oath "I will not serve the Shadow". Could the lack of such an obvious oath be another indicator of the Shadow's control of the WT?) But how can this help Rand?
Darth Agilus
1059. darth.agilus
L.R.K. @876

Great qoute! And thx for reminding me of another point for my theory.

"Let them explain to their children and grandchildren why they were hundreds of leagues away from their posts when the Dark One was SLAIN"
Barry T
1060. blindillusion
Besides my comment way, way, waaaaay up there in the 100's somewhere I've left the Cads issue alone. I suppose I'll delve into it for a moment.

I agree with Freelander@1056+. There was nothing Cads could have done about it. No Aes Sedai trick is going to stand up against SH.

But I will say Cads made others mistakes. The bigget of all you ask? It's simple really I say. It's the same mistake most of the other Aes Sedai make. Nothing she does is for Rand, or in an even larger scope, the world.

Everything Cads does is for the benefit of her own ego. She has to be the one to instruct the Dragon Reborn, or at least that is how she sees it.

As a fellow poster said above, and I'm sorry I don't have the energy to go look for your post, the Aes Sedai are not what they would want the world to see them as, i.e. an institution of great power. The only reason the White Tower is seen this way is because it's so aloof how else is anyone going to see it? The White Tower is nothing more than one of Ishy's projects created to keep the female channlers from doing anything useful.

Bah. Cads is just another member duped by her own ability. In her eyes she is the only one capable of leading the DR where he needs to go. It takes a young woman without the use of the One Power to state the most blindingly obvious thing in the world.

Egads brothers and sisters, where's Moiraine when one really needs her. She's going to have to spend her first few months back in the Real teaching everyone that assisting Rand works better than, well, take your pick of euphemisms: guide, lead, bully, teach, show-the-right-way, instruct, etc etc.

And for anyone who thinks the White Tower is a world power I'd ask you to look at the Seanchan attack and the outcome. It wasn't only that the Aes Sedai underestimated the Seachan, just as they do everyone else, but also that they overestimated themselves.

They're not ready for what is coming. One has to wonder if even Egwene will be able to get them ready in time.

::sigh:: Cads is just another example of an Aes Sedai suffering from delusions of grandeur.

But!! Rants done. Especially as most of you know all this. Does Cads deserve what was done to her? Yes, but not for the reason Rand did it. She needs to start going about her plan another way, hopefully Min's way, or the world is, well, doomed perhaps?

- Blind

EDIT For subwoofer's questions:

subwoofer@1057

How did SH know where the DB was? Well, as we just saw with the number of DFs in the WT, there's no telling who's a DF or what information they may have given the DO/FS. Is it any wonder the BGs are winning?

as I'm in the military I hate acronyms as a matter of principle. The above statement makes me laugh.
john massey
1061. subwoofer
@ darth.agilus - and Aiel WO a DF? Woosh! That's droppin' a big one! I had no idea they rolled like that!

While I understand that Rand now questions everyone and everything- witness poor Hurin- why is he inconsistent about it?I know I have the advantage of being "all seeing" reading the book, but Rand had this major PITA looming in Taim and his minions in the BT and he all but ignores them. Loyal people like Dobraine and his own father he walks all over because of their loyalty and sometime love of Rand, but Rand abuses these relationships and rewards the dinks in his world.

Edited for question mark.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1062. TommyG
I'm pretty sure that Rand's sword is Justice. He could recognize it from his own memories of Falme and the first blurb in TEotW has "Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time." (TEotW pp xv)
R B
1063. MasterAlThor
Tomorrow....

I will deal with you all tomorrow. Right now I am too tired.

Until then...

May you all find water and shade.

And something about the last embrace of mother or some such.
Wilson Grooms
1064. Branwhin
Blindillusion @722:
"This has always made me place a brick on my desk before *headdesking* it. Does ANYONE ... know about this? What am I even asking here? Does Bryne still think "Gabriel" was a real person? Bah...this should be worldwide knowledge by now."

I've been thinking on this one for a while, because it frustrates the crap out of me too. OTOH, if you were Elenia, Arymilla, and so on (Particularly the ladies Rahvin was flirting with/bedding), would you in *any* way even contemplate admitting to yourself you'd been in bed with a Forsaken? They make a lot of sense. That goes so far beyond 'yuck' I don't even want to think about it.

Similarly, Perrin et al, who have likely at least *heard* that Rahvin had bought it in Caemlyn, are likely walking on eggshells now they know Morgase lives. Or not; we haven't seen that meeting fully played out yet.

And, well, much as this also annoys me to no end, LTT got tarred with very much the same brush as his enemies, so it's become possible to believe he's capable of any level of atrocity (and he almost was anyway ... ulp!).

Here's hoping that Gawyn's 'talk' with Egwene clears some more of that up, or at least that he believes her this time.

Oh, and Rikka @763, another poster (didn't note whom, sorry!) got TSR correct on Lews Therin's first 'audible' appearance, but I can go further, as I seem to be a LTT fangirl for some odd reason.

It's early in TSR when Lanfear confronts Rand in the Stone: She says "I love you, Lews Therin" or something very close.

"And you loved power!" is the reply.

At which point I just about dropped the book with my 'WTF???'. Awesome moments.

The scene in TFOH in Rhuidean when Rand/LTT shocks the crap out of Asmo (and infuriates Moiraine) is always good for a giggle fit, too.

I cannot wait for ToM!

Brannie
Wilson Grooms
1065. angelsfan
Anybody have any theories on what Verin's letter to Mat entailed?

I myself think it has something to do with instructions to find the Horn of Valere. For all we know, Verin never actually delivered it to the Tower, and the only other person that knows of its supposed whereabouts is Suian. With the last battle approaching, the Horn is sure to make an appearance soon, so why not now?

The only issue I have with this is that Verin's bag seemed to contain a bunch of letters, and so I have no idea why the need for stacks upon stacks of letters. Any thoughts?
Noneo Yourbusiness
1066. Longtimefan
I know it is not in this book but the anticipation for Moiraine's rescue had me thinking an odd thought.

It is generally accepted that they have to enter the Tower of Genji at the Tower itself.

When they leave where will they exit?

Will they emerge in Tear from the redstone doorframe in the Stone? Could Mat exit from that doorframe since he has been through it once before? Maybe leaving is not held by the same rules and entering.

or is there another doorframe somewhere? The one from Ruhieden melted but were there only two?

I will also put forth a "loony" theory that Aludra will have made dragons by the time Mat and his party leave for the Tower. (I am thinking maybe Traveling with an Ashaman: you know, in case Moiraine needs to be healed) They set a predetermined time and if Mat is not out they start firing dragon eggs at the tower. It may not break the tower but it may irritate the Finn so much they force Mat and his party back out into the Westlands.


If they get really creative they can have several dragons pointed at a range of positions along the Tower and fire them at intervals that create rhythmic vibrations like a giant marimba.

It would be "Dance with the Jack O' the Shadows" heard from the Shadow Coast to the Spine of the World.
Jacy Clark
1067. Amalisa
angelsfan@1065

Verin did deliver the Horn to Siuan Sanche in Tower. (Chapter 12 of The Dragon Reborn). As far as I can recall, only Siuan and Verin were to know where it was hidden so maybe you're right about that.
Wilson Grooms
1068. Branwhin
Sheesh! And here I am 'babbling' at my computer when I should be doing other stuff. I love you guys, and I've been ROFLMAO at a lot of the silliness.

Like Rand exercising his demons.

Oh, and to whomever began referring to Canada as the Blight: Much too cold up here, at least in winter. And much too pretty, besides. Hi there Woofer, Lannis! Hmm, don't know if it's uniquely Canadian (doubt it), I've always liked grossing out my coworkers by bringing peanut butter and dill pickle sandwiches to work. Might be a bit, um, underappreciated in the bunker, though. How about some garlic sausage, crackers and extra-old cheddar?

@825: LTT is definitely bound to the Wheel, but I think instead of being bound to the Horn I think the Horn is bound to *him,* unlike the rest of the Heroes. Several of Artur Hawkwing's comments in TGH seem to point that way.

And the image of Mat blowing the Horn to get Hawkwing to give his many-times-great-granddaughter a reality check? Fabulous. Now, should Rand's new sword be Hawkwing's Justice, and Hawkwing is called via the Horn, where does Dream-Justice go? Or will that be Lady Luck's confirmation (to see it in her ancestor's hand and compare it to the real one, I mean), as she'd likely be suspecting channeller shenanigans?

@827 (I think) Free, dear, you sound like Perrin in his 'don't call me that' phase. It's kinda cute.

Oh, and for @840, I've always been in the 'Lews Therin is real' camp, though with (hopefully!) complete integration now happening it's likely a moot point.

NaNo NaNo
Lindy Brown
1069. lbrown
Did anyone else think that the Aes Sedai that Gawyn found hiding among the washer women was Delana? The Aes Sedai was described as plump and blond, matching Delana's description perfectly. I was SO SURE that it was her and that Halima was somewhere in the camp, too. I was a little let down to learn the Aes Sedai was actually Shermerin! :(
Wilson Grooms
1070. Planeswalker
@subwoofer 1057

1. How did the super fade know that Caddy had the Domination Band?
-Elza, perhaps?
2. Did Caddy flashing her box- get your mind out of the gutter folks- around let people know that she was holding something important- ie, the time she flashed the contents to whatsherpickle?
-nah, too much style. not cads...
3. Why didn't she pull a Rand and Travel to some place like Rhuidean and hide the darn stuff in a wall or somewhere far removed from a powerful male channeler like Rand?
-she was confident enough in her wards. mistake on her.
T C
1071. Freelancer
Branwhin@1068

Stop calling me that! I'm no guru, I'm a doctor. Uhh, err, I meant to say analyst. Channeling my inner McCoy.

Wait, are you from Canada, or Ork?

S'ok, Canada isn't the Blight. And I apologize to the Blight for presuming a connection. ::flees::


lbrown@1069

I did imagine she was a BA plant, but not Delana. First off, she's with a forsaken, she doesn't need to "hide out". Second, I guarantee she wants to be as far as possible from that camp now the whistle's been blown.

But it was very important for the story that it was Shemerin. Several key characters are being pressured to be what they are not. So Shemerin here is an example of what happens when you Accept that. (sorry) Moral of the story, don't wear that shoe if it doesn't fit. Egwene may be wearing white, but she is NOT a novice. Nor is Silviana, and she refused to accept Elaida's decree. Rand thinks he has to be cuendillar to do his duty, but that's wrong. He needs to be human first.


Now, for the last time. If that sword is Hawkwing's, why in the Dark One's blistered backside would Rand keep it a secret? Most of the close associates with him currently, were either at Falme on that day, or have learned most of what took place. There is no good reason for him to recognize this sword, yet refuse to tell anyone, even Min. This sword is something new to we the readers.

But what really needs to be new is a reread post from Leigh. ACoS, here we come!
j p
1072. sps49
FSS @ 901-

I would suggest the oilfish shoals are the beaches and their denizens, but I remembered you're in Xanth, not Mayene.

Chriscot @1052-

They weren't trying to control Rand with Aviendha, they just wanted to build an emotional connection between him and the Aiel.
Wilson Grooms
1073. ShadowsWaiting
I have been a fan of leigh's reread posts ever since I first discovered them a couple of months ago. However, I have never posted before. I tried to read all of these comments before I posted anything, in order to avoid repeating what has already been said (that may have been a slight miscalculation, since it is two days after I finished the book and I just got through all the comments, and begun skimming around post 700)

I loved the book, and would like to lend my support to the 'new' Mat. He is different than Jordan would have wrote him, but IMHO he provides important levity that is sorely needed in overpoweringly dark story. Previous posters have described their Mat glee far better than I could have, just lending my support to BrS and the awesome job he did with everything, Mat and Co. included. Also, I loved Hinderstrap more than any light-fearing person should have a right to love evil.

Just to throw out a crazy theory, which may be totally unrealistic:

Rand decides to visit the Black Tower, and after becoming involved in a long battle where it is clear Rand underestimated both Taim and the sheer number of Darkfriends at the BT, the battle spills into Camelyn.

Somehow Rand is trapped beneath collapsing rubble, and Taim runs to retrieve 13 Myrddraal and 13 BLACK A'SHA'MAN. Perhaps Egwene will be there (as per her second vision during her test to be raised to accepted) and refuse to kill Rand, perhaps she is still ensconsed within the WT.

Either way, Logain returns, possibly after being warned by Mat (who was tipped off to this little scheme by Verin's convenient letter), and finds Rand just in time to defeat Taim and save the day.

Or maybe Mat, in a rush to be off to the Tower to save Moiraine, gives Verin's letter to Perrin, who fulfills his second time being around to save Rands bacon.

I don't know, guess after reading all of the other comments, I just wanted to post something finally...
Wilson Grooms
1074. Auspicium
I love how I'm immersed enough in ji'e'toh to not even be able to contemplate Shadowrunners among the Wise Ones. Though, if the argument (as above) is that Bair and Sorilea saw Cadsuane untie the ward-weaves, then that would only leave Sorilea as the culprit since, Bair can't channel.

Light send Sorilea isn't a shadowrunner!!!
john massey
1075. subwoofer
@LTF- hmmm, it may be a moot point about the Asha'man etc. I was always thinking that one person has to get left behind in the ToG as per the prescripts- 3 people in, 3 people out. Mind you, Mat is the gambler, so I am thinking, if there is a rule Mat may just do the opposite of it- the only way to win at snakes and foxes is to cheat. Mat will never again meet the 'finn without iron, he will probably have Thom, who would never leave his precious harp behind, and there will be the striking sticks for fire.

Maybe Mat would really wise up and take along a bunch of Red Arms. I am not sure about the 'finn numbers or if they are willing to fight a pitched battle in the ToG. That may be a bad idea and things would really go sideways, Mat walks the fine line between cheating and not. End result, the story line is going to be long and I think Mat and company gets lost in the Tower for awhile. There is no simple go in the Tower and knock on every door until you find Mo. I am sure there will be sneaking, spying and perhaps some bread crumbs being laid.

@Branwhin, it was a peanut butter and hot dog fix for me;) Helps bring out the taste of the meat, kinda like mustard. Got nuthin' on Mork and his multi color suspenders.

Woof™.
Birgit
1076. birgit
Lanfear commented on Ishamael's foolishness in wanting Callandor while she and Egwene talked in the Heart of the Stone.

Silvie/Lanfear says Ishy is a fool, but it is Be'lal who wants Callandor and comes to stare at it in TAR.

The motion (or notion) to henceforth refer to Canada as the Blight has been seconded.

America is Seanchan, so Canada is the Seanchan Blight without Shadowspawn. Scandinavians and Sibirians should watch out for Trollocs and Worms.

Btw, anybody wondering where Mierin's real body is? Is it lying somewhere in Finnland? I'm excited thinking Mat and co finding Lanfear's body there!

Maybe Mat brings Moir back in Lanfear's body. Then Cyndane meets "herself" and is so confused that Moir can kill her off easily. If channeling strength is influenced by the body, Moir might get Lanfear's old strength with the body and be stronger than Cyndane.

To those who think the DOs plan is for Rand to balefire the world out of existence, that doesn't make any sense. The Forsaken could do that just as easily. Why make Rand do it?

Except for Ishy, the Forsaken want to rule the world, not destroy it.

I think it's plausible that the weaves that Egwene couldn't see could've just been inverted saidar and since at the time she didn't know it was possible to invert your weaves she would have jumped to the opinion that it was saidin and not saidar.

What would be the purpose of inverting part of a weave, but not the whole of it? Is that even possible?

Any thoughts on Logain wielding Callandor w/ two females sealing the bore while Rand fights in some other dimension(s)

Narishma could do that to fulfill the prophecy "Who draws it out shall follow after, What hand can grasp that fearful blade?".

Why would any forsaken or AS wear a plain white dress?

The White Ajah wear white. Mesaana was pretending to be an AS in earlier books, but maybe in this book she is pretending to be a novice.

You may notice it (if you are clever in the ways of the Pattern), but the only people who "feel" it are Mat and Perrin, because they are part of the tripod. Nobody before now who has made strange choices has talked about feeling themselves pushed. It just happens.

Mat's Band did feel his ta'veren pull and found him because they followed it.

You reference Egwene having a similar experience (to Tuon) in a previous book and resisting ta'veren pull. Can you be more specific? I don't remember this.

LoC ch 18: Rand's ta'veren pull nearly makes Eg reveal Salidar.
Maiane Bakroeva
1077. Isilel
Speaking of Sorilea and Bair, maybe one of them was Compelled/Turned recently, rather than being a voluntarily DF?
Sorilea may be an interesting target for 13x13ing.

And as we all know, Compulsion works even better when applied in T'AR. So, maybe Moridin's slave girls Cynfear and Moghedien stalked and caught Bair in the Dream World and had their way with her.

Also, isn't it possible to find an object in the Dream World and learn about it's real location? SGs have certainly done so repeatedly.
Maybe all of it was just a red herring to seed distrust and Ishydin or his girls just used their mad T'AR skillz to locate the a'dam in Cads' possession.

Moreover, I am sure that the Shadow could get more Domination Bands if it wanted to - Semirhage was likely to have a reserve and whoever made the extra ones can make more.
Cadsuane's piece was used solely to discredit her, not because it was the only one the Shadow could get, IMHO.

Finally, isn't it ironic that Moggy could have freed herself from the a'dam at any time if she wasn't too chicken to use the TP? And got soul-trapped as a result?

Concerning plain white dresses worn by AS, Meidani wears one during her "lesson" with Egs. But no, I don't think that she is Mesaana :).
Galen Brinn
1078. GatheringStorm
As most of the regular posting people probably know, I'm a metalhead (hence my avatar). Well, yesterday I was on my way home listening to Metallica's "Ride the Lightning", specifically the song "Fade to Black", so the lyrics were still in my head as I read the last chapter of the book. It suddenly struck me how close the song and lyrics fit Rand for the book as a whole but the Dragonmount scene in particular. I'd post lyrics, but don't want to get into any sort of copyright issues. Click the link to see the lyrics to "Fade to Black" (and, no, this is NOT an RFife-roll).
Wilson Grooms
1079. LiquidWolf
Apologies if anything I say is a little naive - its also been a good few years since I let WoT swallow my life. But man, oh man, am I so glad that TGS did- IT WAS AWESOME!

For a start - the pacing in this book was excellent! Refreshing since after the last few books.

Reading reactions to Rand’s low-points, I’m glad I’m not alone (what a douche- Balefire on Tam??....really??.... REALLY?!)

Now, I can’t quite remember how Moridin and Rand got linked (would really appreciate if someone reminded me) but I like this theory about the access to the TP through him- remember the brief glimpse of the face Rand saw before he held the TP? I’m thinking this a nice evidence to point toward some kind of human involvement (i.e. Moridin/Ishmael).. access through another consciousness...although...how come Rand didn’t recognise the face?...too stressed out to notice cause he’s choking the crap outta the beautiful Min? Dunno.

Another thing that caught my attention was all this reference to the seals holding the DO...then we also have mention of Callandor and 3 becoming one. I know we’re meant to think that Rand and 2 female channellers make up that 3 to 1...but I’m thinking maybe the prophecy refers to the 3 remaining seals on the DO’s prison being forged into 1 using Callandor somehow?
Matthew Smith
1080. blocksmith
Wetlander@1027

I thought you were Chief? Please don't smother me, it was a part of my brain I didn't need...honest.

Darth.Agilus@1036

Very nice catch. Not something I had gleaned, but it makes some sense. And I always thought Cads bigger mistake was assuming they could hold one of the Forsaken. I realize Rand said they could not harm her and their resources were limited, but I just felt they could have/should have done more.

David-2@1035

Nice catch also...looney theory time.

In the next chapter, page 757 midpage it reads "The access key began to glow in his hands...." While this is likely a minor mistake, is it possible somehow that the full integration caused the hand to return? At the top page 758, the access key is now in his hand, so I doubt my own looney theory very much.

Longtimefan@1066

Adding on to your thread...

To date, when Mat has encountered the Aelfinn or Eelfinn, it has been one or the other, not both. I have assumed that his foray into the TOG to rescue Moiraine will encounter both at the same time. Trouble I am having with this, and it is only occurring to me now, is how? I don't recall his previous visits giving hints as to in what setting this may occur. Any thoughts?
Darth Agilus
1081. darth.agilus
blindillusion @1060

Speaking of Cads and Moiraine, that's a meeting I'm looking forward to more than Rand and Moiraine. Lets see the ol'girl put Cads in her place but good.

subwoofer @1061

Certainly Rand is a poor leader, treating his people without respect or appreciation at this point. But I don't agree on him being inconsistent, at least in respect to Taim.

He trusts Taim least of all. If I recall he even suspects Taim in the assassination attempt. He doesn't spend anytime worrying about Taim because he is certain that Taim is a problem that must be addressed. I mean he never even wants to have Taim near him at all and when they meet its a struggle not to kill him. Rand just makes (a poor) decision to continue using Taim to increase the Asha'man.

He could replace Taim with Logain but he's not sure he can trust Logain either. Maybe he expects Logain's glory to come from defeating Taim for him? He's just waiting to give Logain the chance? Or like the CK and TP, he's trying to get what he wants by balancing Taim v Logain.
Nathan Martin
1082. lerris
And... finished the book.
Darn real life getting in the way.
Might have my two bits once I've caught up on these comments.
Roger Powell
1083. forkroot
ShadowsWaiting@1073
Welcome aboard. We'll look forward to hearing more from you.

You raise an interesting point about how Camelyn was featured during Egwene's tour through the Acceptron. It buttresses the arguments others have made here that some part of the Last Battle will take place in Camelyn.

Several posters have said that the Last Battle will be an internal struggle for control of Rand. I'm sure that's a part of it, and I'm also sure that it won't just be a giant showdown at Tarwin's Gap.

With that said - we've had 12 books, hundreds of characters, and dozens of armies. If all of that is irrelevant compared to some one-on-one struggle between Rand and DO/SH/Moridin, then the series will just have fizzled out IMO. There needs to be a rock-em, sock-em all-out brawl between the forces of the Light and the Shadow worthy of the build-up.

Curiously, the Trolloc attack on Tylee near Ebou Dar seems to foreshadow that. When Trollocs can spring up anywhere in Randland, it seems to imply that the Shadow will attack all over, in every country. This in turn will let BS tell the stories of each of the Heroes of the Light. (I guess Rand's plan to close/guard the Ways isn't working?)

Granted, everything needs to culminate at Shayol Ghul. But if ToM can take care of pulling most of the extant plot threads together, AMoL could be an action-packed finish with a LOT of conflict.
R B
1084. MasterAlThor
anglesfan @1065

I think Verin's letter to Mat contains info on the HoV. It probably will also contain info on his part in the LB.

The other letters are probably more of the same just to others like Perrin and don't doubt that Rand will end up with one.

Verin had been working on a plan for 70 years to expose the BA. I sincerely doubt that that was the only thing she was working on. She needed to get all ot those letters delivered to the right people.

When she showed up to see Egwene she had nothing on her.

Branwhin @1068
Twas I that referenced Canada as the Blight. It has the nothern position and some of it's denzens could be said to exibit DF like qualities. But in truth you can find that just about anywhere *coughs* Washington DC *coughs*


I know of you Canadians....odd....taste for food. I once had a girlfriend who turned me on to grilled cheese and ketchup. I am also aware of ketchup flavored potato chips and the dill flavored. But peanut butter and dill pickle...wait did Subwoofer say peanut butter and hot dogs???

Oookkaaaaayyyyyy. That about does it. Canada is offically the Blight.

Don't worry. As I live in Port Huron, Mi. I am considered to be on the Blight border. Oh and PH is kissing distance from Sarnia, Ont.
Darth Agilus
1085. darth.agilus
GatheringStorm @1078

I like it. I’ve always thought of Rand when I hear Candlebox "You" or Smashing Pumpkins "Bullet with Butterfly Wings"

"The world is a vampire, sent to drain
Secret destroyers, hold you up to the flames ...
I suppose I'll show all my cool and cold ...
Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage ...
Tell me I'm the only one
Tell me there's no other one
[Dragon] was the only son
Tell me I'm the chosen one ...
and I still believe that I cannot be saved."

Ummm, yes, can I have a side of fatalism with my order of angst ridden Messianic imagery?
R B
1086. MasterAlThor
Freelanceer @1029

Raiders??? You mean the team that has in my lifetime has won atleast 3 Suberbowls?

Ummm no you don't get to bring the Raiders in this convo. I will agree with you about Al Davis going bye bye.

Lions fans have always thought that there would be hope in next year. I think only the Browns, Saints and Bucs can really understand the years...no sorry...decades of ineptitude.

Edit: The Bucs are pushing it since they have won a SuperBowl.
Rob Munnelly
1087. RobMRobM
I've always liked the theory that Rand will battle Moridin/DO, Mat will handle armies and Perrin will handle T'AR.

I'm also intrigued by the Camelyn focus. Will Demandred take over the Borderlands army? Seems likely and far more practicable than Shara. Or will Taim attack from the BT?
Galen Brinn
1088. GatheringStorm
It seems strange how songs probably written in totally different contexts, and at least in Metallica's case, 6 years before the first novel was published, seem to fit almost like they were written just FOR Rand.

Weird coincidences...
F Shelley
1089. FSS
I only wish I had songs like those playing in the background. I had recently made my daughter a CD with a bunch of songs from Beverly Hills Chihuahua on it, and she had been listening to it in the car, so when I got to the point where Rand was choking Min, my mind's background music was "Daa-duh-duh dunuh! Chi-wah-wah! Daaaa-duh duh dunuh! Chi-wah-wah!".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpX4cUSeRnA - start at 38 seconds...

Kind of anti-climatic...
Barry T
1090. blindillusion
MasterAlThor@1086

Get you there. Saints fan. But the last few years have been interesting and this year is pretty damn exciting so far.

Character songs? I've only got some for Mat:

Crazy Train ~ Ozzy Osbourne

F**k Authority ~ Pennywise
Rob Munnelly
1091. RobMRobM
@1086 - Bucs were in playoffs last year and in Superbowl this century; and Saints have been good in recent years. I do feel for the Browns and Lions though....

Rob (a Patriots fan, so I have no complaints)
Galen Brinn
1092. GatheringStorm
FSS @ 1089. It's called iPod ;)

Actually, my 5 year old son likes a good bit of my music (much to the wife's consternation; she HATES it, lol), so I get to listen to it in the car with him.
Matthew Smith
1093. blocksmith
RobmRobm@1087

Where do you think our absent, erstwhile insanely evil gollum-mirror Padan Fain will be during the Last Battle?

I don't envision a Mount Doom moment, but feel that the symbolism of Shadar Logoth being used as the focus point for the taint removal is a clue or foreshadow of the battle with the DO. I know the similarities of Padan Fain (being distilled at Shayol Ghul and then corrupted by the evil of SL/Mordeth) to Gollum have been covered ad nauseum before, but I believe he will play a part in the Last Battle.

Actually, now that I say this, I can't recall a scene with PF following the cleansing of saidin. There must have been one, right?
F Shelley
1094. FSS
@1092 - yeah, I bought her a cheap MP3 player that someone stepped on (not me!). Her mother got her a fancy cheap one with a little screen. problem is, like the PS3 sicaxis controller, it can only be charged through its little USB connector, which means it hardly ever gets charged. Honestly, who thought of that stoopid technology?

I will never, ever, ever buy an iPod for a 6 year old. Ever. Never. Ever.
R B
1095. MasterAlThor
When it comes to my music and my kids, I feel FSS sorrow. I cannot listen to the stuff I really like in the car with my kids lest they start singing it at just the right moment....oh say like when my wife is around.

Bad expericne don't wanna go through that again.
nolan
1096. topknot
Everytime I hear "Changes" by 3 Doors Down I think of Rand
Galen Brinn
1097. GatheringStorm
FSS @ 1094,

No, no, no...lol...the iPod is for ME!

When my son was 2, he got a hold of the iPod Nano my parents had given me for my birthday that year...it took a swim in the toilet.../sigh. I don't let him NEAR my iPod now. lol

MasterAlThor @ 1095,

My son does the same thing, and asks for it to be played when she's in the car. I just grin at her.
Wilson Grooms
1098. ania hyek
@ 3 into one theory

i dont know guys but the first answer that came into my mind was that all three types of powers combining by use of the collandor. rand using "true power", narishma "saidin" and i hope aviendha/ elayne "saidar". Well that was the first impression i always believe that first answer in my mind comes as the true one

@ taim vs logan

i agree and i see something like logain becoming the head of black tower and start co-operation with WT in next part and in the end combining of both towers atleast partially (even if not in location than in having a joint council/hall of servants) in the epilouge of series. and i also feel that new role of reds will be joining with black tower. the 51 captured AS are yet to play there role.

@ wise one as dark friend
i agree tere must be some one as dark friend in wise ones to either masquerading or a genuine DF .

@ Elida End

well a truly desrved end if she is not re-incarnated. although her ending brought traveling to the seanchen. but i still feel this scene should have been handled in a better way. instead of having questions asked from a poor novice the should have tried to show us her capture from her own POV. ( but still it may be that particular novice comes out to be messana. still my theory)
Pete Pratt
1100. PeteP
I think we Raider fans need someone to Balefire Al Davis or else the DO is going to recycle him as the new owner....
Matthew Smith
1101. blocksmith
Call this a pre-emptive song in the head...

When Rand, Mat, and Perrin finally meet back up...

"The Boys are Back in Town" by Thin Lizzy hopefully followed by "We will rock you" and "We are the champions" by Queen.

Funny how ipods/cell phones etc don't react well to toilets or washing machines. And yet that is so often where they end up.

PeteP@1100

I sympathize with Raiders/Browns/Lions fans...I really do, but the evil that is Al Davis needs to exist so that all the other fans/teams can point and say "see, that's what happens when you allow an insane person to run a pro sports team". Couldn't we store him in a vacuole and bring him out only to refresh our memories as to the repercussions of very bad decisions?
R B
1102. MasterAlThor
1099 blindillusion

Nnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't finished reading that series yet. Please tell me that is not how the Dark Tower ends.

1100 PeteP
LOL. We'll see if we can get Freelancer to do it. After all he works with lasers.
nolan
1103. topknot
PeteP@1100

I see it now, Al Davis is one of the Forsaken, "let the lord of chaos rule"
Rob Munnelly
1104. RobMRobM
1093 - I'm in the Fain-in-the-Ass school so I try not to think of him much. No doubt he'll play a role in the end game but I dread even thinking about it. Ditto re Elaida, whom I don't believe is going to go quietly into that good Seanchan night.

1100 - ROFLMAO. Well played.
Rob Munnelly
1105. RobMRobM
1103 - definitely a pre-Halima Balthamel vibe.
R B
1106. MasterAlThor
For those of you who like WoT art, I suggesst a little side trip to this website.

http://seamassketches.blogspot.com/

I think I am liking Graendal.

Just cool to see someones take on these characters. They are about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Edit: Anyone know any other sites with good WoT artwork???
nolan
1107. topknot
1105-and I was thinking I finally figured out where Demandred was hiding.:P
Wilson Grooms
1108. David-2
For the record, my brief summary of characters and their plot arcs in The Gathering Storm:

Aviendha - will end up as Sorelia #2, with less leathery skin
Bryne - no longer needs to battle all AS, just one - for the rest of his sorry life
Cadsuane - not nearly as smart as she thinks she is; has begun to teach him manners: big deal!
Egwene - unbelievably awesome
Elaida - very happy she ended up with the Sanchean ... except, of course, that she knows how to Travel
Elayne - offscreen throughout book, good choice!
Faile - understands what needs to be done, does it
Galad - discovers Morgase in Perrin's camp - offscreen?!?!?! Major waste of a good scene
Gaywn - still useless, still stupid; apparently First Prince of the Sword is a job for brawn, not brains, and he was trained accordingly
Graendal - her demise is anti-climatic; I have no problem with Rand balefiring the whole county, if he had needed to, but she essentially died "off screen", thus losing some impact
Harid Fel - still dead, but a better Brown than most Browns
Hurin - sad scene, he deserved better
Lews Therin - I'll miss him
Mat - nice scary story which did nothing for character development or progressing the plot
Min - going Brown, will end up being highly overshadowed by Aviendha and Elaye
Nynaeve - maturing nicely
Perrin - inspects wagons after epic battle? FAIL
Rand - turning into a right bastard, will his end-of-book epiphany really change him?
Semirhage - gets upset from a spanking? FAIL
Sheriam - good riddance, I was tired of her long ago
Talmanes - has a sense of humor, who knew? now please go away
Tam - mad enough at AS to finally speak out (against his own rules)
Tuon - smart as she thinks she is, but blinded by pride and prejudice
Vanin - yep, ruined by AS (Mat was right)
Verin - believably awesome; smartest AS of all?
Wilson Grooms
1109. adgriffi
@TyranAmiros
New theory time--Rand uses the True Source to hold the DO back as the bore is sealed, thus keeping saidin and saidar from getting tainted.

I was actually going to post the same theory, and then I decided to scan through the comments to see if anyone else had already mentioned it.

He has to break the remaining seals, and re-seal using the True Power. It seems even more likely to me now that he's detroyed the Choedan Kal.

Of course, there's the prophecy of Callandor and the circle of three -- which means two women and Rand, so not sure where that fits in. And who? Nynaeve seems likely as one of them, I guess.

And where does Alanna fit in?

Though many things were resolved, and you can tell that the last battle is imminent, there are still many things to be resolved.

Any thoughts on Mat's task from Verin?
Barry T
1110. blindillusion
MasterAlThor: Err, guess it's bad practice to discuss endings to any series in a discussion board.

It's a good end and that's how I read it, but I have friends who disagree with me.
Wilson Grooms
1111. Millon
your awesomely awesome awesomeness in your your review is.......pretty well AWESOME! Surprised you even bothered to mention the couple of chapters where Perrin napped and Mat starred in "Dawn of the Dead 2". yay. Rand going nuts-great. Egwene's triumph- lacking. Elaida definitely deserved a better end than 6 paragraphs tied to a flying snake. Would liked to have seen some hack-&-slash from Gawyn and Bryne against ter'angreal wearing super ninjas. Hate to sound like this because I love all the characters like best friends but both RJ and BS are a bunch of blanket weilding nancies. I find the darkness and tragedy hard to believe without some strong protagonist DEATH! If you're evil, your dead. Good guys are immortal. booooo Even Verin's sacrifice is tainted with the lack of confrontation and she ends up being in cahoots (albeit under-cover) with the bad guys anyway. I'm sure in her 70 year plan she had to do some realllly bad stuff to keep up her cover so, in my opinion, still a bad guy. I do like the hint of Perrin's confrontation and final acceptance of his role with the wolves. Can't wait for the next book.
Helen Peters
1112. Helen
832. rothaar
Everything we have seen about balefire so far indicates that the "power" (amount of time erased) is directly tied to the size.

Linear, logarithmic or geometric? :)


Sorry *ducks*
Pete Pratt
1113. PeteP
I do wonder if Al Davis is really the DO.....
Noneo Yourbusiness
1114. Longtimefan
subwoofer@1075 (wow that is a big number).

I guess I should have said more about the Ashaman in my looney theory. He would only be there to Travel Mat and his party from Cameyln to the Tower. I think he would be waiting outside for the trio to return and if the somehow came out of the tower in the same vacinity then he may have the chance to heal Moiraine if she had been stilled. If Mat and the rescuers leave via a different method then the Ashaman would have to Travel to find them.

I think the unifying feature that is glimpsed from both hallways by Mat as he walks along the curving hallway is a twisted tree in a field. (do not have the books in the office but I have read them over a dozen times) That tree may be the common ground where the rescue takes place.

Then again she may be held by only one side and he just has to get in to the Eelfinn side. Could it even be possible that the Aelfinn may be "coerced" into helping him? He has many many many delicous experiences for them to inhale. Plus they could be musically dazzled and then bound in iron. Granted he was trouble the last time he was there. He does speak the old tongue so he can negotiate with them which is handy.
Wilson Grooms
1115. IloveMatsHat
OMG!!!!!!!!!! Just finished book it is awesome!!! Hope next books have more Mat in them and it needs more development of Mat and Tuon's relationship. IT'S SOO SWEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!! Elaida seriously needed to have her ass kicked in more graphic detail and Rand is a ginger emo! Egwene and Verin are AWESOME (or were awesome in Verin's case). BOO Sheriam!!! How could she betray us like this! I'm going to go away and cry! Oh and Tam and Rand's reunion could have been better but I like how Rand doesn't go all slushy and pathetic. It really shows how he has grown.

MAT'S HAT RULEZ THE WORLD!!! and the Green Giant will kill you with sweetcorn!
Wilson Grooms
1116. David-2
Longtimefan@1114:

Mat "negotiate" with the Aelfinn? Well, maybe. For a rather loose interpretation of "negotiate".
Sam Mickel
1117. Samadai
RE: Messana in the Tower,

I don't think that Messana is in the White Tower anymore (or will only be there for a very short time)
Undoubtedly since she was already in trouble with the DO over not showing up at the cleaning, I imagine Moridin will soon be wearing a third mindtrap. If he doesn't pull a Semi and throw her to the wolves
nolan
1118. topknot
PeteP@1113

The DO is bound and not able to touch the world......Although now that I think about it, my lawn did turn brown this summer, someone told me it was due to grubs but they were probably a DF, could be a sign that he is breaking free.
Matthew Smith
1119. blocksmith
Longtimefan@1114

Glad to see I got you thinking...that has been my problem. My initial assumption of dealing with both at the same time was a quick/without thought one. Retrospect and these comments got me trying to picture it and I keep coming back to the feeling that the two different doorways indicate the A and E exist separately. Almost like opposite poles. Moiraine fell through the doorway leading to the Foxes and then the doorway was destroyed.

I think that the TOG is a doorway to both and likely, Mat will have to go through the Snakes (maybe Thom asks how to save Moiraine and gets an answer?) to get to the Foxes.
Sam Mickel
1120. Samadai
I recall this being brought up before, but not where.

Mat gives up the eye that the snakes see through to save Moraine

Anyone remember who said that?
j p
1122. sps49
Isilel @1077-

Moghedien douesn't appear to have had the Dark One's permission to use the True Power.

topknot @1103-

Davis as Lord of Chaos, I like that!

*

And can we stop calling the Groundhogday Townspeople zombies? They are not zombies as I understand the term; they are more like the Valhalla heroes (thanks, endertek @1033). Or even Bill Murray's character Phil in Groundhog Day.

Gotta go, there's a new OotS up and Amores is back on.
Bill Reamy
1123. BillinHI
darth.agilus @1004: Probably the best analysis of the Aes Sedai I have seen. Bravo! (Although I tend to agree with schrodinger @1007 that Moiraine is one huge exception to the rule of ineffectual AS. There are others, of course, although not many. Verin is certainly another and Siuan to a degree. Even Nynaeve is coming around, but she still has a lot of issues to deal with as well.)

re Cadsuane: She has made mistakes, as all the other AS have at one time or another. I have to agree that her ego got in the way of teaching Rand to laugh and cry. What Rand really needed was someone more along the lines of a mother figure, someone who could show a little love along with discipline when needed. Her spanking of Rand with little or no explanation was one of her biggest mistakes with him, IMO. Even though Rand's reunion with his father figure went sideways, that was what lead directly to his epiphany on Dragonmount. Rand and the rest of his instructors/guides/etc. definitely need Moiraine back to show them how it should be done. And major kudos to Min for stating the obvious: help him, don't try to force him. Even Nynaeve realizes it, and with her men-related issues, that's a real surprise.

sub @1061: Yeah, Rand is certainly not mistake-free, but he does have a lot on his plate. As much as we know that something needs to be done about Taim, he's not there in Rand's face, while Dobraine and Tam are right there.

Bair and/or Sorilea as DF: I would be _seriously_ bummed if that turns out to be true. Certainly there are likely to be other DFs among the Aiel other than Melindrha, but hopefully not among the Wise Ones.

sub @1075: peanut butter and hot dog??? Eeeewwwww! I love both but separately, please!!
Wilson Grooms
1124. ania hyek
guys i am an avid reader and ave gone through a lot of other stuff before ending up in sf world.
but i am having a bad feeling about all the long serieses. it happened in sword of truth, it happened in harry potter. i kept feeling that some things are written to keep us the fans happy, As if writer has a long list which he keeps ticking like bryne and siuan's life saved ... tick, too many forsaken... lets kill Grandeal. Its not that i dont want these things to happen but still. it looks a bit forced to me

@1108 true Min needs to do something great to avoid ending up as the smaller character. her caracter needs growth, though as elayne and aviendha already have thier places i think she may end up with rand wherever e actually settles. also she and aviendha need to do thier bonding quickly

@ elayne
guys i hope my time calculation is not out but i think she should have become a proud mother by now. ( at least if certain human functions are not modified in randland. tat will be intereseting twist bot in humanising rand and providing another control point on him to be exploited.

btw there are still a lot of events left beind and it will be very difficult for Brandon to give them as much detail as they require according to Jordans trend
T C
1125. Freelancer
subwoofer@1075

Well, you say 3 people in, 3 people out, but Moiraine is in, and she can't get out. The equation needs to be resolved. Oh, no, don't get me started on math...


MasterAlThor@1084

Port Huron is nice. Definitely Blightborder, though.


MasterAlThor@1086

Now if you'll just let me extract that hook from your mouth... I admit I was just fishing for a tiny bit of love for my Raiders. I knew that a fan of a truly epic losing team would bite. Oh, and who was it the Bucs beat in their one Super Bowl win? ::sigh::


blindillusion@1090

I will never in my life associate that subhuman's music with an artistic work I admire. Especially a song featuring a dead friend whom I still miss after many years. Sorry, but my loathing is well founded.


@various

If I could ensure that Al Davis' thread never touched the Pattern again, it would be a good day in the Silver and Black Hole. A day with a fine Autumn Wind.



Helen@1112

Clearly it is based on the square of the duration in time (t^2), the energy concentration (Kj/cm^2), and the surface area of contact. I warned you not to get me started on math.


Samadai@1120

It is not said directly, it is surmised. I posted earlier a brief compendium of dreams/viewings regarding Mat, with a possible interpretation. It is Mat's own POV that he believes the 'Finn are recording his memories by seeing what he sees.


BillinHI@1123

So, in place of Cadsuane, you're saying Rand needed. . .










wait for it. . .









Lini.


Regarding Taim and the DF Asha'man. If there's a place where you know that your enemies are going to gather, leave it alone. Let them gather. If you cannot destroy them all at once, they will just scatter and become less predictable. That is what Rand is doing ignoring the Black Tower.


ania hyek@1124

Elayne's gestation is somewhere in the 6-7 month neighborhood.
Micheal Jessop
1126. moggle
There's a moment in the movie Dumb & Dumber where Lloyd tracks down Harry on this scooter he got from, "Some kid back in town. Traded the van for it, straight up," after the two have a falling out on their way to Aspen.

Lloyd boasts that his "hog" can get 70 miles to the gallon, and there's a long silence after he tells Harry there's room for one more on it if he still wants to go to Aspen.

After the silence, Harry growls, "You know, Lloyd, just when I think you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this." There's a short pause. "AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!"

That's how I felt about this book. I haven't been as engaged in a Wheel of Time novel since, probably, Fires of Heaven. I do love the Wheel of Time series. Even considering that, as much as Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, and Crossroad's of Twilight had their moments, they were somewhat trudging to get through, in my opinion. Yet, I've been reading it for a very long time, like so many others.

In any case, the analogy above is somewhat misleading. The Wheel of Time is certainly not dumb. Far from. Yet, the scene from Dumb & Dumber is analogous in its own way. Robert Jordan's writing -- the van that looks like a dog -- is gone, sadly. There are a lot of good memories in that vehicle, but it can see no more miles. Thus, Brandon Sanderson arrives, offering a ride to the readers on this scooter. Will it perform the job? The van got him, and us, most of the way there, yes, and thankfully the road is already laid-out before him, with a clear destination. But can he squeeze a just few more, though important, miles out of this new vehicle to get us to the top of the mountain?

I believe he can. Mr. Sanderson, I'm going to Aspen with you. And if you gotta pee while going through the pass? Just go man. Just go.
Sam Mickel
1127. Samadai
moggle@1126

roflmao. Just go man. Just go.
Wilson Grooms
1128. Silvertip
@ 1118 topknot:

Only if they were four-spined grubs from Shara.

(Actually we've had those also [another Michigander/long-suffering Lions fan], and they are definitely shadowspawn).
Drew Riley
1129. drewoftherushes
@1126 That might be the best post, out of the 1128 on the board. And I've read them all. I'll admit, the way it started I thought you might be a crackpot.
Barry T
1130. blindillusion
Freelancer@1125 re: 1090 re: Ozzy Osbourne I'd assume.

I always apologize when I feel it's due. Would never bring up a painful issue.

Also, Lini...hells yes!! She could be Rand's Alfred..err butler..err man Friday..err Good Left Hand?

moggle@1126

You should send that one up to BS's blog...he'd probably appreciate it...as he'd probably see it.
R B
1131. MasterAlThor
Silvertip...

Are you down with the Maize Rage or do you Sparty On?

Anyone else from Michigan is welcome to answer.

Freelancer...

You've been to PH??? When? I can only imagine you must have been just passin by, just passin by.


If your old enough you just might figure that one out.
Wilson Grooms
1132. kab1
Hi all. I apologize if this has been posted (I did a quick search of the posts for audiobook, didn't see it), but there is a post called audiobook by Megan, which interviews Michael Kramer and Kate Reading, the narrators of the audiobook WoT series. I found it pretty interesting. Some of you may have heard them on chapter 2. Just thought I'd point it out since the title of the post doesn't really indicate it's about WoT.
Wilson Grooms
1133. Silvertip
Master al'Thor,

Well, I live less than a mile from Spartan Stadium and the people in green and white pay my salary, so I guess that's an answer. Although right now I'm really p.o.d at some inebriated fans from the Iowa game who decided to smash my daughter's jack'o'lantern from our front porch ... suppose the Wolverines are equally philistinic?
Darth Agilus
1134. darth.agilus
BillinHI @1123 - Thanks!

This whole Sanderson finishing RJ's project has worked well. Do you think I can get Tor to buy the rights to The Horseclans and do the same thing using Glen Cook or Steven Erikson?
Linden H
1135. Lynd
Silvertip@1133: As a former Wolverine, I can assure you that I have never smashed anyone's jack'o'lantern.

However, I did have one of mine rather epically smashed when I lived in Ann Arbor, and not during a game weekend, so I can't really recommend the Wolverines over the Spartans...
Wilson Grooms
1136. Silvertip
@darth.agilus 1134:

It *has* worked well, hasn't it? If anybody doubts the magnitude of what BS has accomplished here (and how well RJ paved the road in his last months), check out "Poodle Springs," a book legendarily left unfinished by the great Raymond Chandler that Robert Parker was brought on board to finish a few years ago. Chandler and Parker (the Spenser mysteries) are both wonderful writers, but this book was ... words fail me. Terrible. The seam between the two writers was abrupt, obvious, and incredibly disruptive to both the plot and characterization. What Brandon did here is *hard*, and the very small-scale nature of what complaints we come up with speaks to how well he did it.
R B
1137. MasterAlThor
Silvertip....

I offer condolences to your daughters Jak O' Sha...er Lantern. As a proud (overly) suppoerter of all things Maize and Blue I have to say no we are not philistinic.

Sometime we are down right neanderthal.

Lynd...

Gasp, You!? Noooo!!!!!


And with that folks we have found who killed Asmo.

How could you Lynd? You are suppose to rep your school. I did catch the former part, but I would think that you would still show the Wolverines love over the Spartans.
Wilson Grooms
1138. David-2
Silvertip@1136, darth.agilus@1134:

Another recent example, the horrid The Last Theorem by Clarke and Pohl.
Wilson Grooms
1139. stargazer
Another thought on Cads' great master plan to teach Rand to laugh and cry:

Have we ever seen Cadsuane really laugh? Or cry? It's not like she and Sorilea are famed as the comic relief characters! Yeah, this is a great master plan: let's have the badass scary hard senior Aes Sedai the other Aes Sedai are afraid of, and the iron-willed lioness senior Aiel the other Aiel are afraid of, let's have *them* teach our hero to laugh.

Ooops. Maybe we shoulda hired Mat and Talmanes.
Linden H
1140. Lynd
MasterAlThor@1137
I could just be trying to get close enough to spray-paint a skimpy, yellow polka dot bikini on Sparty... Not as Awesome as Verin's 70-year deception, but still arguably worthy. ;)
craig thrift
1141. gagecreedlives
Ok a bit late in the day but only just got and finished the book and to quote Miss Butler “Holy Shit”.

Im gonna add my 2 cents and then I am gonna try to get through all the comments which from the looks of it will take longer than it took to me read the book.

With the darkness around Rand when he was like “Im the dragon and I can make the pattern stop your heart” stuff I got the feeling that was Moridins influence combining with Rands Taveren nature. But now that Rand has rediscovered his humanity and love I wonder if those emotions will start seeping through to Moridin and weaken his resolve.
On Dragonmount that little talk about the futility of the pattern and how it would be better off gone sounds more like Moridins philosophy than anything else.

Interesting that Tuon changed her name to something that sounds like fortune. Considering who she is married to.

And goddamn I itch to know the relationship between Moridin and Shaidar Haran. The whole thing with Semirhage had to of been a set up. Or did Moridin somehow let Rand channel the true power as him being collared could have unfortunate side effects to himself.

Im now also thinking that the flaw in Callandor was on purpose. It is to ensure that for the defeat of the DO that men and women have to work together.

Ok *sucks in deep breath* time to read the comments
R B
1142. MasterAlThor
Lynd...

When you are ready...just throw up the block M and we will be there

Legion
Noneo Yourbusiness
1143. Longtimefan
@ 1075 again. sorry.

I had not really thought about it being a 3 in 3 out policy. It could be that way. I suppose if that were the case then Noal would be the one to sacrifice himself to staying with the Finn. Maybe he will stay with the Aelfinn which seems eerie but decidedly better than staying with the Eelfinn.

To get back on the book at hand. (well, at home) Verin's letters are taunting little mysteries aren't they.

Oh Verin, to heart and heart and heart again I heart you infinity.

What could it say that Mat would have to act on in 10 days (a week on that calender I believe) but could ignore altogether after 30 days? (three weeks)

I suspect it is something he cannot ignore at all and the 30 day option was just to get it into his hands so the curiosity would get to him and he would open in at the earlier time.

Verin is the resident scholar on the Prophecies both on the Light side and the Dark side. It may be a few lines of either one to nudge Mat in a direction to fulfill it. (for the Light ofcourse. Verin is still rooting for team Light I believe)

As for the other letters there is probably one for Perrin as well and maybe even one for Rand. They may have been left in Camelyn.

As for the others I cannot remember who else Verin worked with when she was with Rand but there may be a letter for Cadsuane and one for Amys. Probably one stating that Elza is Black. (too late)

Would Verin leave a note for Loail? Could her sneakyness know of prophecies that inclued the Ogier?

My general theory is that her various letters contained pertenent segments of prophecies for each intened recipient and perhaps a warning about known darkfriends if they were seen in the company of the intended.

If only Mat shows up in the Tower of Genji and Moiraine askes "why are you here" he could say "Verin sent me".

I know it does not really work that way because of Moiraine's letter but the parallel would be tidy.
Greg Bloom
1144. MuleHeadedLummox
@1056 Freelancer

You seem to be attributing an ability to Shaidar Haran that he has never shown when you say he undid Cadsuane's Wards. While there have been indications that SH may be able to use the True Power, this has never been confirmed. The only confirmed ability he has in regards to channeling, is the ability to prevent those around him from channeling, and the only people he has done it to have been followers of the Dark One. The only thing he has done that may have been destroying a tied off weave was when he destroyed Mesaana's disguise in CoT. However, if she was holding on to an inverted weave to maintain the disguise, this would just have been a consequence of SH cutting her off from saidar.

In fact, the best evidence that he was not capable of breaking the ward was that he had to have Semi remove the compulsion from Elza. If SH was capable of destroying a tied off weave, he should have been able to remove the compulsion himself. The fact that he couldn't remove the compulsion, which was implanted by a BA member, means that he probably can't sense the consequences of saidar. So either one of the two BA sisters with Cadsuane saw her set or unravel the ward on the box, or Bair or Sorilea is a shadowrunner.
Jacy Clark
1145. Amalisa
Freelancer@1125

Elayne's gestation is somewhere in the 6-7 month neighborhood.


Agreed. Monaelle told Elayne that, as her pregnancy progressed, her abilities with the One Power would decrease to the point that she would not be able to channel at all during labor. Per Egwene's inner monologue, at this point, more often than not, Elayne can't make the dream ter'angreal work.
Wilson Grooms
1146. chiriji
My favorite scene from the book was when Rand told Cadsuane to get lost. I HATE that woman. It was like, when she showed up, she was the absolute last thing the series needed. Another self-righteous idiotic woman with an inflated self-worth. Just like every female in the series. So lame. Except I actually like most of the female characters at least some of the time. Not so with her. I loved Rand's storyline. While I was reading it, at least. Then I stepped back and was like.. hmm.. what has he really been through? What true pain? The box and the beatings, yes. The stress of his position, which shouldn't be ignored. But what has he truly lost? Nothing. He still has all 3 of his women(don't even get me started on that b/s). Man he thinks of as his father? Check. Childhood friends? Check. Hometown intact? Check. They missed a chance here to make me really care about the problems of these characters and worry about whether they'll succeed when he didn't kill Min. When you know a major character can't die, you don't care when they get in trouble or even how they get out of it, because they are guaranteed to get out of it. I KNOW that no major characters will truly die. Not that I ever thought any would.

I loved that Rand stopped being a pussy about killing women. This was my favorite Rand, taking no shit from anybody, balefiring people/cities, whatever he had to do, he did it. Egwene was good, but I still hate Aes Sedai. They're worthless, and haven't done anything to ever help the world that I've seen. Who cares about their stupid White Tower? Lame.

I think BS did an outstanding job. I love WoT, and I thought it had the potential to be great. But it got to the point where the characters were so annoying, and the story so slow that it was horrible. I like BS's voice better than RJ's. So hopefully he'll salvage what could've been great and keep it good.

Kill a f*cking main character for christ's sake! Adds suspense, trust me.
Wilson Grooms
1147. alreadymadwithhand
Finally got through all the comments!

blocksmith@1080

See Chriscot@1052's response. Rand thinks about his hand as "hands" in TGS Chapter 1. He is still one-handed.

And since no one has answered yet:

Why does Egwene think that list of 3 sisters could be Mesaana? The list is sisters not on Verin's list who had disappeared or were taken. But earlier, she seems to know that exactly 40 were taken (including over two dozen full AS). And none of these 40 are on Verin's list either, so what is special about those 3?

Also, exactly 60 BA (plus twenty from the rebels) escape. But she includes Evanellein in this list whose disappearance only "strongly suggests" that she is BA. Does this mean that not all 80 AS who leave are on Verin's list? Or does she think the disappearance confirms Verin's list because Evanellein was on it?
Patrick Huff
1148. pattack
@1057

Elza Penfell, as for how they got the box open. Your guess is as good as mine.

When are the Aes Sedai of this time going to learn to just do away with the forsaken instead of holding them prisoner.

Traveling should have made the world a smaller place, how convenient for the author for Perrins Asha'man to be too tired to make a gateway all of a sudden.

As for the TOM prologue... I do think some of it will revolve around Lan, the borderlanders in Far Madding, the remaining BA, the Tuatha'an and Mats return to Camelyn. (Looking forward to his meeting with a very preggers Elayne)
Maggie M
1149. Eswana
alreadymad @1147
All the comments? Really? That's amazing! I admire your resolve.

I would bet that the list Egwene has of Mesaana candidates isn't accurate. It would seem just a little bit too easy if Egwene could reunite the White Tower, beat the Seanchan, and discover a hidden Forsaken all in one fell swoop. As much as Verin was awesome, I doubt that she has every single Black sister accounted for. Also, Mesaana's presence in the Tower is relatively new, especially since Verin spent a good chunk of the last several years chasing around after Our Heroes.
Wilson Grooms
1150. seomen92
@973 - BEST EPILOGUE EVER
Tyler Durden
1151. Balance
Free @ 1021: Yup your right. Thanks man. That’s what I get for being too lazy to do the research before the post. And having a couple vodkas. Of course, it also proves you are a guru… :)

@1106: that has always been one of my favorite WOT artists too. Why can’t the book covers look like that?

My major disappointment comes from Graendal’s death. Why couldn’t they have removed all the slow shit from the previous books, and replaced it with a great section where Rand plays cat and mouse with ol G before BF’ing her place. Seems like a waste of a good character build-up.

Semi was cool at the beginning, but breaking from one spanking!! This is the most sadistic FS and some ass-tapping does her in---anticlimatic.
Patrick Huff
1152. pattack
@1146

I do believe that some of the charactors need to go on a permanent vacation. I wouldn't mind seeing Min go bye bye, her storyline is so lame. Birgitte, Lan, Cadsuane, Noal,and the sea folk can all go to the great beyond.

We did lose Masema, Semirage and Graendal, so some shit the bed anyways......
Wilson Grooms
1153. seomen92
Concerning the great LTT debate, let's paraphrase another fantasy character:

"Of course this is all in your head...but does that make it less real?"

or to put it another way,

"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not out to get you..."

Who care about LTT? What importance does it have? He has obviously merged with Rand, anyway, so who cares about the "science" of it. C'mon, people.
Sam Mickel
1154. Samadai
seoman92@1153,

Quit trying to ruin our fun ;)
We just do it because some of us like to argue, and some of us just like to stir shit( I am looking at you Leigh) :)-
Sam Mickel
1155. Samadai
Is it just me or is this post starting to take forever to load, like tSR post #10.
Wilson Grooms
1156. alreadymadwith
Eswana @1149

Every last stupid sports discussion, and dead horse review, yep.

Oh, I don't think Egwene's candidates are Mesaana either. My guess is that Mesaana left and is about to be mind trapped for her epic failure. Remember in the prologue she said she was about to hand over the whole White Tower. Whooops. (Although I secretly hope she's found some way to stay in the tower and be a decent villain.)

But my confusion is because Egwene's lists don't even seem to be logically consistent. Unless I'm missing something...
Barry T
1157. blindillusion
Samadai@1154

Stir Shit?

Me? I like to throw wood on the fire to watch it burn.

And yes, it's all in good fun.
T C
1158. Freelancer
TOR ate a comment, I'll try again.

blindillusion@1130

Not a thing for you to apologize for. Just anytime I think of Crazy Train I see Randy's face.


MasterAlThor@1131

Doesn't quite click, only reference my mind draws to the phrase is from Open Invitation by Santana. How's that for old enough?

And yes, back in '03, driving from Niagara to Grand Rapids, took northern roads above Erie, re-entered U.S. at Port Huron, stopped for lunch. Late August, so weather was awesome.

Also, I prefer the Pomegranate & Puce. Those northern/northeastern schools are weak. ;-)


stargazer@1139

Good point. Let's use the most emotionless, hardnosed, intolerant old geezer lady channelers to restore Rand's humanity. Hmmm.


gagecreedlives@1141

Yes, first time I saw her new name, all I could think of was Fortuna Favet Fortibus.


MasterAlThor@1142

Oh, the rat signal, almost like the Bat signal.


MuleheadedLummox@1144

Shaidar Haran is not a channeler. I submit that both Saidar and Saidin are entirely nullified in his presence, if he wishes it. Note that forsaken upon first meeting him are unable to even sense the Source, much less embrace it. So, he dissolved the box's wards. As for Elza, there's so much we can only speculat upon. Perhaps Compulsion if removed the same way would kill her, and it must be "unwrapped", ala Nynaeve with the young man. Also, that's Verin's pseudo-Compulsion, it isn't normal.


chiriji@1146

Not that it means anything at all, but you've just made my ignore list.


amw@1147

Am I mistaken, or have you not posted the same two paragraphs about Egwene's "Mesaana short list" like two or three other times in this thread? I've noticed it, but I don't have an answer for you. Maybe later.


Balance@1151

I'm telling you. Where's Wetlandernw when you need her? That's her title, and hers alone. As for Graendal, Rand playing cat-and-mouse with her is exactly the wrong thing to do, and why the strategy he employed was the most likely to succeed. As for Semirhage, it wasn't being spanked, per se, that did her in. She was actually looking forward to taking internal notes on the pain of whatever torture they decided to employ. No, it was being treated like an insignificant child, with no respect or fear. Being completely dismissive of her other than to punish her tantrum, that is what worked.
Sam Mickel
1159. Samadai
Freelancer,

Am I on your ignore list too?
Sam Mickel
1160. Samadai
Freelancer,

fortune favors the fortunate?
Jacy Clark
1161. Amalisa
The more I think about Graendal, the more I think she may have escaped.

Imagine... you are one of the Forsaken. One who, before going to the Shadow, was certainly adept in reading people. After going to Shadow, you've elevated that gift to an art form. You value your skin, and you have put yourself in the middle of a fortress that you haven't left since Sammael disappeared, unless it is in response to the head bad guy when he calls a meeting. Suddenly, one of your "pets" brings you a man who says he has a message from the Dragon Reborn for the "minor Domani Bloodborn" residing in the castle, seeking allegiance.

What would you do?

If it were me, I would dig very deeply and find out everything that was said by Rand to Ramshalan - the whole "looking for an enemy who's smarter" thing. I'd recognize that Ramshalan is a popinjay, a sycophant. I'd start considering scenarios.

We know that there are Compulsions with time limits; Rahvin and Moggie both used them, as I recall. I think there are also Compulsions with triggers - didn't Sammael use that with the messenger he sent to Rand? So, if I were Graendal, I would weave a Compulsion that would last at least as long as the time it took Ramshalan to make it from the Gateway to my front door (because I would have certainly asked that question!) and/or would have included a trigger that would release it within in a few minutes after he was Delved to discover if a Compulsion actually existed.

Then I would stand on the ramparts or at a window watching in the direction he was going when he left the fortress. Watching very carefully, holding saidar ready to take action (with an inverted weave, naturally, so it couldn't be seen by another female channeler).

Having been a part of the War of Shadows, I'd recognize balefire when I saw it, I think. And Rand held it for a brief time before he released it:
Something impossibly bright formed in the air before him, and Min cried out, backing away. The air itself seemed to warp, as if pulling away from Rand in fear. Dust blew from the ground in a circle around him, and the trees groaned, lit by the brilliant white light, the pine needles rattling like a hundred thousand insects scrambling over one another. Min could no longer make out Rand, only a blazing, brilliant force of light. Pure power, gathered, making the hairs on her arms rise with the force of its nebulous energy. In that moment, she felt as if she could understand what the One Power was. It was there, made incarnate in the man Rand al'Thor.


If he held it long enough for Min to note all of that, then he held it long enough for Graendal to perceive the threat and weave a Gateway to escape.

I may be grasping at straws here, but I can't square all the buildup involving Graendal with the way she was (apparently) dispatched. Plus, I still think she killed Asmodean... :D

Edited for spelling because, damn, it's hard to type with a book and a cat in your lap...
T C
1162. Freelancer
Samadai@1159


Samadai@1160

There are a variety of translations that different folks prefer, but the base Latin is along the lines of: Fortune favors fortitude.

Colloquial translations to English include:

Luck goes to the powerful.
Luck favors the hearty.
Fortune favors the mighty.

And so on. It is the motto of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing Fourteen. I personally prefer "Speak softly and carry a big Phoenix missile."


Amalisa@1161

One word. Residues. Even a self-expiring weave leaves them, Nynaeve might have picked up on them. She said it was "erased".

Graenedal. Bucket. Kicked.

Edit: A late thought about Graendal's demise. The build up is Rand going on with Nynaeve and Ramshalan about how you beat someone smarter than you. So he sends this bufoon in. You know we all thought, "How can that help?". Nynaeve and Min even knew that he'd just get popped with Graendal's high power Compulsion. Which he does. And then the brilliant comes out. Ramshalan's condition is proof that Graendal's to home. FOOOOOMM! All gone byebye.
Test him!
Hmm, Compulsion erased. Huge "AHA" moment, realizing Rand's trick. Would the author(s) really pull that scheme, and later let us find out it failed? I don't think so.
Jacy Clark
1163. Amalisa
Okay... residues... Remember when Aviendha picked apart the Gateway in Ebou Dar and all of the collected Aes Sedai had conniption fits?

Aviendha did not quite include her in the exasperated look she gave the other sisters. "This leaves no residue," she explained patiently. Too patiently. "The residues of a weave this large might be read two days from now."

Merlille snorted, a very strong sound to come from that slight body. "That is a rare talent, girl. Neither Teslyn nor Joline has it. Or do you Aiel wilders all learn that as well?"

"Few can do it," Aviendha admitted calmly. "But I can." That produced a different sort of stare, from Elayne as well; it was a very rare Talent.
(emphasis mine)

I know that Nynaeve can do bloody near anything but does she have that Talent? I don't remember her reading residues. Not saying that she hasn't, and my memory is certainly not encyclopedic, but I just don't remember. And if one can't read the residue, then the weave would just appear to be erased, wouldn't it?
Sam Mickel
1164. Samadai
Freelancer@1162 I knew I was.

I agree Graendal was (never existed) balefired
Wilson Grooms
1165. Rand al'Todd
RE: FSS @901.

"Huh - I like in Northwest Florida (for now). Where does that put me?"

Xanth, of course. :-)
Patrick Huff
1166. pattack
Mesaana= Evanellein?

Silviana reswore on the oath rod after Egwene was raised as Amyrlin and is confirmed to be faithful. However, it is stated by Egwene that it is possible that one of the forsaken could defeat the oath rod.

Personally, I don't think Silviana would have been quite as understanding as she was to Egwenes case during her punishments, nor do I think she would have allowed herself to be imprisoned. Finally, I don't think she would have made such a grand stand against Elaida if she was Mesaana, the corrupt Amrylin was doing such a great job of creating dissention and hostility that is would have been counterproductive to the goals of the DO to fight against her.

What we do know is that Evanellein left the tower mysteriously and was not on Verins list of BA. It will be interesting to see what Egwenes plans are for hunting out the remaining BA at large. I'm guessing Nalaene will be alerted to the news from the tower via a fleeing sister, hopefully Rand will get news before she stirs the black shit pot against him.

Oh, such intrigue before us and only a glimmer of sunshine to guide the way....
Jacy Clark
1167. Amalisa
Also, on the subject of residues... Avi's explanation indicated that, well, size mattered. The larger the weave the longer the residue would last. I don't know if that was strictly area - a large gateway vs the surface of a human brain - or if large = complex. If it is the former, than any residue would evaporate pretty quickly...
Greg Bloom
1168. MuleHeadedLummox
@1161 Amalisa

It's not impossible for Graendal to have survived, but for her to be alive it means she realized Rand's plan from the start, as soon as he sent his peon to her. I think she's most likely toast. Of course, I still think she killed Asmodean. I don't believe her death removes her from the suspect list. In fact, in her PoV, she again discounts the possibility that Asmodean is alive.

@1158 Freelancer

We'll just have to disagree on this one. I suspect we'll find out more about Shaidar Haran's abilities in the last two books, so we'll see.

On the subject of Shaidar Haran, if his ability to block channeling does stretch to those on the side of the light, it occured to me that Rand may not be the one that has to fight him in the end. We already have Slayer, who seems to be set up to fight Perrin, so maybe Shaidar Haran will be faced by Mat while Rand takes on Moridin or the Dark One in the Last Battle. I just think it would be ironic if Mat, who seems to be the one to find non-channeling ways of fighting and has his medallion that blocks weaves was the one who had to fight the 'super-fade' who also blocks channeling.
Darth Agilus
1169. darth.agilus
@1144 MuleHeadLummox

Excellent point. All the more reason to be concerned about Sorilea. It could be one of the 2 BA with Rand but then we never actually see them in relation to Cadsuane's trap.
Jacy Clark
1170. Amalisa
MLH@1168

It's not impossible for Graendal to have survived, but for her to be alive it means she realized Rand's plan from the start, as soon as he sent his peon to her.


Not necessarily. She just needed to be ready for any eventuality - especially escape.
T C
1171. Freelancer
Amalisa@1163

Ok...

First, let's give Graendal the largest possible window, and say that there are 15 minutes from the time Nynaeve confirms Compulsion's presence in Ramshalan, and then its absence after the balefire attack. That would still require Graendal to set the dissipation of the weave on a very precise schedule, otherwise it would be gone before Nynaeve does the A test, or else it would still be present for the B test.

Second, about residues. Perhaps I read too much into it, but I always took Merilille's comments to mean that it is a very rare Talent to be able to sense weaves two days gone and still be able to identify them well enough to reconstruct a weave you didn't already know. Many sisters can detect fresh residues, and even test for saidin. Once again, even if Ramshalan's Compulsion faded immediately after Nynaeve's A test, the residues wouldn't fade to zilch within 15 minutes. But, since that might be entirely my misplaced spin on things, I'll throw it out.

Now let's imagine the conversation between Graendal and Ramshalan, after he's been Compelled.
G: "What did the Dragon Reborn say before sending you to me?"
R: "He spoke of how to defeat an enemy much smarter than himself, my Lady. He even asked me how I would manage it."
G: "And what was your response to this question?"
R: "I suggested finding someone even smarter for his side. He said that's just what he had done, by asking my advice." ::postures proudly::
G: "But why are you here?"
R: "He wished me to parlay with remote families on his behalf, my Lady."
G: "Does he take me for this enemy which so concerns him?"
R: "By all means, no, my Lady. He assured me that I was in no danger coming here, he even scoffed at my request of an armed escort."
G: "Very well. Please extend to the Dragon Reborn my humblest and warmest welcome at his convenience."

Ramshalan does not know to whom he is speaking. He also knows nothing else of Rand's scheme than what is portrayed here. I wonder how Graendal would determine that:
1 - Ramshalan's purpose for being there is to become Compelled as proof of Graendal's presence (this requires her to surmise that Rand has become cold enough and hard enough to use a man that way).
2 - Rand has a saidar channeler close by him who is able to identify the presence of her Compulsion within a victim.
3 - Rand plans to erase the entire building with her in it rather than show himself to Graendal (meaning she'd also have to suppose that he has a sa'angreal powerful enough to accomplish such a thing), then...
4 - Retest Ramshalan for the negative proof of her death via erasure of the Compulsion.

She would have to reach each and every one of the conclusions above before crafting the counter-scheme being suggested.

This is all Leigh's fault. I get it, if there's no body, we can't be sure. I think we can be sure.
Wilson Grooms
1172. kab1
@1125Free and 1145 Amalisa thanks for the info on Elayne's pregnancy, I had asked that question a while back, but somehow it got lost in all over a thousand posts! I was just looking at the WoT chronology trying to figure it out, as 6-7 months seems long given the line in this book about Melaine just beginning to show (that one really threw me!).
According the timeline Elayne got pregnant the night of Feb 17th and KoD ends at the end of April. I'm not sure how much time has passed in TGS, is it really 4-5 months?! WOW!

I'm curious as to whether Elayne will give birth before, during, or after TG and what effect the babes will have on Rand (this may have been more interesting back when the dry old leathery ladies were trying to teach him to laugh and cry). Wondering if the old theory of "the Dragon's blood on the rocks at SG" turning out the be the twins might come true. To me, I don't think so, but what do I know! I certainly wouldn't have wanted to give birth at SG.
Doug Moore
1173. brinoch
Regarding the earlier comments about Cadsuane's warded box and the seeming ease with which SH was able to rescue Semi...

For as much as that scene was tragically awesome, I was very frustrated at the behind-the-scenes machinations which made it possible. Frankly, it annoyed the hell out me. Storing a nasty, vile item in close proximity to the very Forsaken who sought to use it on Rand was blindingly awful planning. Particularly given the rather poor record of holding hostile channelers accumulated throughout the many volumes of the WoT. I don't care how secure you think your damn wards are. If you *know* it will hurt your ally and the hope of the world, get rid of it!

Hey, I've got an idea. Nynaeve knows, for example, that Egwene (and Bode, etc.) can turn mundane items into cuendillar. Why don't we put the damn Domination Band in a box and turn the whole box into cuendillar. Ta da! It's encased in WoT carbonite. No more danger to Rand. Of course, that might mean that someone had to actually communicate, but hey, it has to happen at some point in the series, right? Right?

The characters of the Light are consistently stupid it seems regarding prisoners and security.

In contrast, let's give Egwene her due praise. Egwene did the right thing and executed as many BA as she could get her hands on as quickly as possible -- the exact right thing to do.

The next time I "hear" some moron maundering on about lost weaves while holding a Forsaken prisoner (or fighting a Forsaken), I'm going to seriously send them a sternly worded note. And sniff in their general direction.
Wilson Grooms
1174. Saidan
Anyone else think the "to Live you must die" thing came true when Rand died as Lews Therin to make dragonmount?

The footer at the end of the epilogue where it says "The Blind man shall stand upon his own grave" (as in Dragonmount), and Rand's revelation at the end of Veins of Gold when he realizes he and Lews Therin have always been the same person made me think that this may be the case.
T C
1175. Freelancer
MuleHeadedLummox@1168

I wonder. Who told Elza that she was the victim of a mild Compulsion? Among the forsaken:

Moridin - Says Semirhage deserves her imprisonment, and absolutely refused the suggestion of a rescue. Also, couldn't have identified Elza's compulsion, as Verin's work is saidar.

Demandred, Mesaana, or Graendal - All present when Moridin said no rescue.

Moghedien or Cyndane - Moridin's dogrobbers. There is a possibility that he set up Semirhage to be destroyed by Rand, but not truly very plausible. How would he foresee Rand successfully accessing the TP? However, he might be playing a game with the others, and sent one of his mintrapped wenches to go fetch Semi even though he publicly rejected a rescue. But why would they send Elza to Semi to have the Compulsion removed? Each of them is expert enough to have dealt with such.

So we're left with Shaidar Haran. He is able to detect Verin's Compulsion within Elza. He is able to disrupt a channeler's access to the Power, at least. Perhaps he is able to dissolve a weave as well, though there's no real evidence of such. If he cannot, then what beat Cadsuane's wards? Did SH teach Elza how to unravel them?


brinoch@1173

Don't forget to grip your skirts tightly, then fold your arms beneath your breasts. And glare a bit.
Jacy Clark
1176. Amalisa
Freelancer@1171

You may be right about the Talent for reading residues. I admit I'm grasping at straws, here... in fact, I think I've already admitted to it... *lol*

But, in this imagined conversation between Graendal and Ramshalan, let's imagine that she asked one other question: "So, Rammy baby, anything else of note happening around the Dragon Reborn lately?" And Ramshalan spills that the Aes Sedai had been holding a very dangerous captive who managed to escape and attack the DR. And the Dragon Reborn annihilated her! (I've gone back through the chapters between the death of Semi and the point in question now, and I don't see anything that would indicate that Rand or the Aes Sedai or the Wise Ones did anything to hide what had happened.)

Wouldn't that put Graendal on notice that the rules have changed? If I were Graendal and I'd just found out that Rand had forsaken (no pun intended) his own rule about killing women and had offed Semirhage, I would be looking for a new locale anyway.

Oh, and by "build up", I wasn't referring to the conversation between Rand and Nynaeve and Min while Ramshalan was off visiting Graendal. I meant the overall build up in the series, itself. She was more important than the send off she got, if it turns out to be true. I'm really okay with Semi getting her comeuppance the way she did, but Graendal? Not so much...

It may be a loony theory but I'll hold on to it for a while... It may work its way through and vanish... like Compulsion... ;)
Jason Ferrante
1177. Ferrante
I've seen several comments about Logain killing Taim, or Logan saving Rand and whatnot, but how do either of these acts conclude Min's vision of Logain attaining "Glory such as few men have ever dreamed of"?
Wilson Grooms
1178. kab1
In regards to Graendal I would agree that she's dead. I like the earlier comment (can't remember who said it, sorry!) which mentioned that it would be somewhat silly of the authors to come up with this brillant plan only to have her survive.

I do agree that it would have been nice to have a Graendal POV however, one that covered the moment the balefire struck. The one @532 is quite funny. Then we'd also be done with the there's no body debate.

I'll concede that the door is left a crack open for speculation that she got away, but I think she's gone.
T C
1179. Freelancer
Amalisa@1176

It's all good! At least this time I agree that there's Compulsion involved! ::whistles::

I had thought about the chances of Ramshalan informing Graendal about Semirhage's demise, and I discarder the thought. Graendal wouldn't have hung around for five seconds after getting that news. She would have killed Ramshalan, grabbed her favorites pets and her spare streith gown, and vanished. Why kill Ramshalan? How long would Rand wait before going in after him? Long enough for her to get away.

So, I presumed that Ramshalan was chosen for this bit because he doesn't know. If Rand is going to send someone in to have their brains mushified, he wouldn't send someone who could crack out of school.


kab1@1178

That was me @1162. And yeah, it's just possible that Brandon is so sneaky that he left a sliver of doubt as a purple herring for us to play with awhile. He loves us so much, you know.
T C
1180. Freelancer
Ferrante@1177

The last time I gave Min's vision of Logain's glory any thought, I imagined that he would be named by Rand as the first Supreme Goombah of the new united Aes Sedai. Rand won't want the job, he'll have had enough by then, assuming he even survives.
Wilson Grooms
1181. Katiya
When I read the new prophecy about the three becoming one, I assumed that that referred to LTT, Rand and Moridin, mostly because of that time in...um, Tear? KoD?...when LTT says "How many will we three kill?" after Rand sees Moridin's face. Apparently Rand and LTT are one now, regardless of LTT's "reality", but the issue with Moridin still has to be resolved...or could it have already happened? In accessing the True Power via the Moridin link, as most of us seem to agree happened, could that have been a type of melding? As I pointed out before, Rand adopted Moridin's color scheme for a while there, and even started spouting his philosophy when he was (literally) up there on the ledge.

And Min's viewing better fits into that, with Moridin and Rand merging to become one person (because I'm almost sure that that was what her vision was about, not LTT). My interpretation makes me very nervous though, because obviously, Rand and Moridin becoming one is a very bad thing...hmmm.
R B
1182. MasterAlThor
Freelancer...

Pomegranate & Puce???

I do not believe that is a Pac 10 team. Clue me in.

Also that was a scene from Bugs Bunny when he was wrestling the Crusher.

BB. Oh Crusher what are you doing out in the cold?

Crusher. Oh just passin by, just passin by...

Rat signal. Come on. We are the winningest team in college football history. I don't even think that a school from out west is even close.

Graendal:
Dead and gone. No tricky stuff. Just bucket kicking.

Oh and Freelancer see your post at 1171...guru.
Wilson Grooms
1183. kab1
Free @1179, you know, I thought it was you, but I wasn't positive. I should have known!
R B
1184. MasterAlThor
I have had a thought. I don't believe that it is original, but here it is.

Are there dreams, visions or prophecies that say that Rand will survive the Last Battle?

I think that we all just want him to live. But I think that he has to die. It is going to be the way that he dies that determines if he lives on.

Like LTT and all the other Dragons, if Rand chooses the right path he gets to live. If he doesn't then the Wheel she is finished no?

I think that he dies and his soul lives on to repeat the cycle another time. Ishy said that this has been going on forever. So one would think that each time the Dragon died he did it the right way, the Patterns way.

Yes LTT killed himself, but that is what the Pattern demanded. Otherwise, how would we have Rand. So, I imagine that Rand will give his life is some grand and noble way to fulfill the Patterns design.

Just a thougt. Have at it.
Henry Loose
1185. schrodinger
I always assumed that Logain's glory was self-won... and the few men have attained part seems to indicate something epic, such as fighting taim, or doing something so badass that he gets sucked into the horn of valere as a new hero among the ranks.
Wilson Grooms
1186. kab1
I'll also add that I'm looking forward to the reread starting back up. I'm hoping Monday will bring us A Crown of Swords! but no worries, take as much time as you need Leigh!
Patrick Huff
1187. pattack
@1173

Hear Hear, Too bad Elayne didn't find a cell phone in the cache of angreal found in Ebuo Dar. LOL!!!
Wilson Grooms
1188. ania hyek
well about the three candidates for being Mesana, I believe they were the three weakest black sisters who managed to escape. you see all the black sisters were left behind but these thhree managed to escape. Despite being persumably too weak to actuallymake a gateway to escape. so they are te hottest guess
Wilson Grooms
1189. MagicDragon
1126 ROFLMAO nice review.

The first few chapters I had doubts that I was really going to enjoy the last of the series being written by Brandon, I intended to read them as I want to know how it ends, just wasn't sure I would enjoy them. I had to pull out my dictionary a couple times to fully comprehend what Brandon was trying to express, which I'm not accustomed to doing. Normally I only use my dictionary to look up how to spell a word. I also felt Elida had changed alot, which she had been changing once she got rid of Alvierin. But as I got more into the book I got more hooked, and am very happy with the job Brandon has done continuing R.J.'s work.

I saw a post earlier commenting how Rand hadn't really lost anything. I suppose he hadn't lost his closest friends, family, lovers as they all still cared about Rand but he pushed them away as he belived his feeling for them were a weakness, a tie that could be used against him. But by pushing them away he began to loose part of himself, and when Simerhage used his feelings for Min against him he finally lost so much of himself he lost his compation, his humanity.

I'm not sure which was my favorite part, Verin's last hour, Egween's battle with the Seanchen, or Rand's 'rebirth' at the end. I'm leaning toward the rebirth as that was very momentus to me not just that hopefully Rand will quit being as heartless as any of the shadowspawn, but for the first time in this series I understand the real damage balefire does. Rand asks himself why he should fight, why go to war? and the answer he comes up with is because he didn't do it right last time and now he's got a second chance. So the Dark One can revive anyone that isn't killed with balefire, but when he killed Graendal he didn't just burn her from the pattern so the Dark One can't revive her, but all the servents she had too. All those people may have been as good as dead because of the compultion she used on them, but being killed by balefire they won't ever get a second chance.
Wilson Grooms
1190. yebeme
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but with Tuon now being Fortuona...well, I know people have noticed the obvious similarity in her new name to the word fortune. Does anyone remember the prophecy about Mat from Crossroads of Twilight:

"Fortune rides like the sun on high with the fox that makes the ravens fly. Luck his soul, lightning his eye, he snatches the moons from out of the sky."

Fortune (or Fortuona) rides with Mat...nothing too amazing, sure, but still kinda cool. Though a prophecy being so literal is a bit odd.
Wilson Grooms
1191. Nanaimobar
Whew, what a ride. Absolutely loved the book. Probably #3 in the series after TEOTW and TDR.

Critical intrepretation: Almost every POV was great. Not exactly Jordan, but that wasn't meant to be. Sanderson's intrepretation of the characters was great, and his ability shows here.

Brandon, I know you got some flak for Mat. Forget about it. I, for one, like the balance of humour with the level of drama. Remember that Will Shakespeare had the grave diggers in Hamlet; one of the most incredible farcical scenes before one of the most tragic. It works. However, I will admit that the whole backstory scene was maybe a bit too much in Jordan's world. Perfect in Warbreaker, Alcatraz, etc; but a bit of a stretch for Mat. Still, there were bits of Jordan's writing I wasn't 100% a fan of either.

Does anyone else see Tuon as a major Ta'veren? How else could she overcome Rand's negotiating tactics? Surviving assassins and plots. Add to that her ability to "read" omens. Let alone keeping Matrim in line How could I have missed that in the past.

Way to go Brandon. I was gasping, truly, and audibly, at at least 6 times. Laughing out loud at least as many, and tearing up with Verin's exheunt.

Most of all, thank you for giving Rand, and us hope. I think in this book, Rand experienced the darkness we all felt on Sept 16/07. The ending of TGS has hope return, as we felt knowing the series would be completed. It's going to be quite a ride, and I am comfortable with your hands on the wheel.
Darth Agilus
1192. darth.agilus
Freelancer - Pomegranate & Puce? Man it might look good but it sounds nauseating.

kab1 @1172 - I can buy the blood being someone related to the Dragon but Elayne's delivery seems so much less likely than Sulin(?) or Galad. Really the heirless 9 month preggers Queen of Andor is going to show up at SG? I can buy her showing up the day after delivery but not anywhere up to it pre-victory.

brinoch @1173 - while I am no fan of Cads on this instance, obviously (think my highly negative post started all this), she was not aware of the other instances of captured Forsaken (although Rand was aware of at least one).

Saidan @1174 - it could be but that's not really the Wot's ummm ("Idiom sir?") ... right! Idiom!

Freelancer @1175 - oh very good catch on the folded arms. Why does this make our authors seem so, oh I don't know, oedipal?

Ferrante &1177 - Whatever Logain does its likely to be timing more than magnitude. He'll play a key roll for the endgame but that doesn't mean its not going all Egwene on Taim and the DF Asha'man's bootay's.
Wilson Grooms
1193. dobby100
i think that varin did put compulsion to elze instructing her to make sure that rand servive to fight DO. and also she put compulsion to the other 4 sisters.
Maiane Bakroeva
1194. Isilel
Freelancer @1158:

Shaidar Haran is not a channeler.

Then where did the disintegration of Mesaana's clothing, not to to mention dark-fiery bonds and a gag holding her in the punishment scene come from? It certainly looked like SH channeling True Power to me.

That, in addition to his shield or whatever it is.

I guess that Callandor wasn't made in the form of a functional sword for nothing and that Rand will have to use it in that secondary capacity during TG.

Re: Graendal - my problem with her demise is that I don't see it as "brilliant". Rather we see the customary FS stupidity, which all the mentions of her supposed intelligence can't hide.

She did know that Rand had a very powerful sa'angreal - she was at the Cleansing, remember?

Thus, she should have really had an early warning system around her lair and decamped at the first hint of somebody channeling saidin in the range of it (and possibly even saidar if she didn't know about the melting of female Choedan Kal). I mean, she knew that Rand was a ta'veren and had a chance of implausibly finding her, no matter her precautions.

And when a foolish fop, who was forced to approach her fort on foot, suddenly appeared with an inane message, it should have stunk to her immediately.

Not to mention that the actions that left a trail to her weren't very competent either. I mean, why meet with a catspaw in her lair rather than in a neutral location?

It is Sammy's demise all over again. A brilliant general, who, after all the build-up, can't defend his city against Travelling and who forgets to ward his observation spot against Mashadar (something that even modern AS can do). Yea, right.

Unfortunately, I am almost certain that Graendal _is_ dead, which is a pity, IMHO. We need worthy opponents for TG and also for afterwards. It shouldn't be a completely rosy world after the victory over the DO - it should take a lot of effort to mop up remaining legions of terror and powerful minions of the Shadow. Even if we, the readers aren't going to see it.


P.S. Chiriji @ 1146:

I agree with you that it would have been far more powerful in the end if Rand _did_ kill Min or Tam. His inner victory is a bit of a cheat, as in the end he didn't face the same loss that broke LTT. But it is WoT, so...
craig thrift
1195. gagecreedlives
Well it appears that the only that hasnt been discussed is the fact that the only person that seems to like the high lord Weiramon is LTT. That struck me as odd and for some reason a little amusing.

So do people think now that its more likely that he is just an idiot or darkfriend? LTT a good judge of character or not?

And good to see that Im not (as yet) on freelancers to ignore list :)
Birgit
1196. birgit
maybe Moridin's slave girls Cynfear and Moghedien stalked and caught Bair in the Dream World and had their way with her.

The 13-13 works only on channelers, and Bair cannot channel.

Now, I can’t quite remember how Moridin and Rand got linked (would really appreciate if someone reminded me)

They crossed balefire in Shadar Logoth. aCoS 41

I guess Rand's plan to close/guard the Ways isn't working?

Rand's ward on the Waygates makes Shadowspawn die slowly. If Tylee was near a Waygate, the Trollocs could have attacked her before the weaves killed them.

Nynaeve knows, for example, that Egwene (and Bode, etc.) can turn mundane items into cuendillar.

Does she really know that? She left Salidar before Eg's discovery. Maybe Eg didn't mention it during their meetings in TAR.

Too bad Elayne didn't find a cell phone in the cache of angreal found in Ebuo Dar.

She did. Avi identified several just before she had to leave El in KoD 15
john massey
1197. subwoofer
Hi GCL! Does this mean you are back State-side?

I was thinking about the use of Bale Fire and something sticks out at me here. Basically, this little struggle with the DO has been happening since the beginning of time and the Forsaken have been spun out and have had repeated battles with the Dragon. So now that Rand is BFing them all, what happens at the next turn of the wheel?

I know that the DO was talking about thinning the herd, but if he loses his most prized minions, then what? Find some new Forsaken amongst the lamos that are passiing for AS and Ash now?

What also grinds on me is that Rand is so cavalier with the BF. And, with all the battles in the past 3000 years, why haven't any of the previous incarnations of LTT stumbled upon the Bale Fire=bye bye Forsaken forever equation?

I'm gonna have to dig up my books from somewhere, but I also believe that SH has some powers. He is not a regular Fade, he is the "hand of the DO" or some such and is above the Forsaken in terms of standing and power.

Pomegranate and puce? With a just hint of lavender?

Woof™.
Maiane Bakroeva
1198. Isilel
Birgit @1196

The 13-13 works only on channelers, and Bair cannot channel.

But Compulsion done in T'AR is even more powerful than that done in the waking world, according to Moggy, who is an expert. Cynfear is also at least proficient at it.

It is surprising that the Aiel dreamwalkers were allowed to roam freely in T'AR for so long. Time to enslave or to eliminate them from the Shadow's POV.
craig thrift
1199. gagecreedlives
Hey Subwoofer thanks for the welcome. Im actually an Aussie but yes I am back home. But never fear I will be stateside in about 10 months :)

Im not sure that it is always the same forsaken everytime. I think the 2 champions might be the same for every last battle but everybody else has their own choices. Theres always gonna be people that are tempted to the darkside.
Wilson Grooms
1200. Silvertip
@1190 yebeme: I believe that Fortuona nee Tuon chose her own new name upon accession as Empress. Perhaps she did so with that prophecy in mind? Thus no coincidence.
Matthew Smith
1201. blocksmith
Masteralthor @1106

Great link and loved the artist...can we start the petition to have that artist do the new covers?

Moggle@1126

Hillarious....make sure you offer more than a june bug for dinner and please share your gloves!

Alreadymadwith....just about everything @1147

Just a looney theory and pointing out how quickly we get multiple "hands" than "hand" references...seemed odd but also perhaps intentional.

And relative to the three on the list...I agree, something doesn't sound right there. I like the idea from pattack@1166 that Evanellein is Mesaana. That said...Mesaana messed up royally. She was supposed to make sure Eg got removed as Amyrlin from the SAS and make sure the WT was firmly in control of the BA. I would put her failure as worse than Moghedien's. Where does that put her...likely in the worst sort of hell. Vacuole, repeated not-so-nice visits from Shaidar Harin, and likely as cour'souvra to Moridin. Or maybe she gets Liandrin's punishment.

Amalisa@1161

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I did not believe that Sammael's compulsion was what made his messenger die. Thought it was a separate weave based on the response from Rand (assuming he was not completely lying to Graendal). And in my best Bayle Domon...I do believe Graendal be dead.

Kab1@1186

(Grabbing spotlight jilted Prom Queen style) No...it was me at 599...(collapsing like Semirhage being spanked because I need recognition like oxygen). You must laugh at my lame attempts at comedy...you must...
Wilson Grooms
1202. GetaarIn
Just finished the book and I agree with most comments: Egwene was simply awesome, Rand was scary, in his depression and Mat was a bit off in his initial apearance; although he completely redeemed himself with his preparations for undercover stories: that was truly funny.

Instead of simply repeating what others have said, way better then me, I'm going to concentrate on one aspect of the story, that hasn't come up a lot in this discussion.

Contrary to most people: I really liked a lot of the aes sedai in this book. On the surface they we're the same scheming idiots as in the other books, but if you read more closely you can finally see that most of them (excluding the Black Ajah and obvious idiots as Elaida) have the heart in the right place.

For example: did anyone notice how much good Meidani must have done, before she became the nervous fool in the last books. The discription of the room, with all the gifts of people she helped settling disputes was simply awesome.

Same goes for Romanda, of all people. I really hate her scheming but you cannot help but appreciate her pov-story: 'Romanda hated to use the One Power for death, even on such vile creatures'. It gives a notion that beneath it all, she really does she healing as her primary motive, at least, that's what I read into it.

Same goes for Shemerin. A very weak character, but she mentions offhand that she had the duty to care for a group of beggars in Tar Valon. Does give something away of a yelow Ajah, that exculy does something for the sick.

I never was a big fan of the White Tower before, but maybe, with the BA's expelled or executed and a new, more concerned leadership, they might scheme a little less and become a force of service for the people once more.

Of course, that would also make sure they regained the power they had at the beginning of the series, but you have to take the bad with the good I gues.
Wilson Grooms
1203. Leafburner
"Does anyone else see Tuon as a major Ta'veren? How else could she overcome Rand's negotiating tactics?"

She overcame them because the pattern needed her to. The pattern needed her to send To'raken to raid Tar Valon because that was pivitol in seeing Egwene become Amirlyn.

Tuon was completely compelled by Rand, but in the end, Rand was not supposed to ally with her at that time. If he had, Eggy would still be a novice and her dreaming would have been for nothing.
Wilson Grooms
1204. douglasm
1189 MagicDragon

Robert Jordan has explicitly stated that balefire does not destroy the soul and does not prevent normal rebirth. It prevents resurrection by the Dark One because he has to grab the soul before it goes to wherever souls normally go after death, and when someone dies from balefire they go instantly from "alive and well" to "died a minute ago and the soul already moved on". The Dark One can't grab the soul without engaging in time travel, and he specifically laments to Demandred when talking about his inability to bring Rahvin back that he cannot step outside of time.

See How does balefire work in the Wheel of Time FAQ for more information.
Wilson Grooms
1205. Nightbaron
A couple of things;

On the question of reading residues, I see comments addressing that Merilille said that it was a rare talent. That was not my interpretation of her comments at all, however. I believe she was saying that unraveling the weave, as Aviendha had done, was the rare talent. Reading residues appear to be fairly common, to me.

On the question of Logain's glory, here is my theory. Logain will defeat Taim and become M'Hael, and along with Egwene, will lead the channelers in the new Age. On top of that, though, considering the pattern of information distortion and such, I always figured that Rand would fight the Last Battle, would die/appear to die, and that since he'll fight it mostly on his own (while Logain will be the visible leader of the male channelers), the stories/rumours of the Last Battle which will spread amongst the populace will attribute Rand's actions to Logain. Such that the common man will probably eventually believe Logain was the real Dragon Reborn.

On the question of Shaidar Haran's demise, here is my theory: it's gonna be Padan's Fain role in the Last Battle. I see something like Rand bleeding on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, Shaidar Haran coming towards him all threatening, and Fain jumping out of nowhere screaming "He's mine! Al'Thor is MINE!!!" and jumping on SH. Of course, as we know, the DO evil and the Shadar Logoth evil will destroy each other, leaving Rand to be able to finish his job, whatever it ends up being.

And finally, here is a slightly loony theory I came up with. I don't actually subscribe to it myself, mind you, but I still thought it was worth sharing.

Some people have speculated that Callandor itself was attuned to the Dragon's soul, something which contributed to the wards in the Stone of Tear, and for the future prophesied use of Callandor in the Last Battle. Some people have also speculated of a link between Callandor and the Crystal Throne, as they're both... crystal, I guess.

So here's my theory, what if the Crystal Throne is attuned to the Dragon's soul as well, so that when a now humbled Rand agrees to bow to Fortuona on the Crystal Throne, it triggers a yet-unknown mechanism of the Throne, which binds the person sitting on it to the Dragon Reborn. It would thefore allow for both prophecies to be fulfilled; Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne, and Rand binding the Nine Moons to serve him.

In anyway, just a slightly loony theory, I think I actually favor the theory that Rand's new sword is Justice and that it will be used to bind Fortuona to him, but I still thought it had *some* merit.
T C
1206. Freelancer
MasterAlThor@1182

Pomegranate & Puce, aka Red & Gold. That's always been pretty much just a comedy play on the funny color names other schools claim, like Maize instead of yellow. But you know, there's much more to this world than football, and if you go looking for schools with more than 100 NCAA titles, you have to look West, for there is only one.

Oh, Bugs Bunny you say? Well, this sitiation calls for some stragedy.

Now look here. Verbosity + pomposity + intractibility != guru. Now see, you got me doing math again!


MasterAlThor@1184

I understanding your overriding logic, and agree with it. LTT and Rand both live within the same turning of the Wheel, albeit in different ages. So LTT killing himself wasn't how a turning ended. And Jordan was not GRRM. When fin is written to this story, Rand al'Thor will be alive.


pattack@1187

RE: Cell Phones. She actually sorta did. There were three or four items in the cache which Aviendha identified as permitting conversation across long distances.
Edit: Birgit@1196 got here first.


MagicDragon@1189

Run for it! Forkroot will hunt you down.



Nanaimobar@1191

Tuon != Ta'veren. All of the Seanchan live their lives by "omens". And then call other folks' empirical experiences superstitions. Her survival is a matter of cunning, preparation, and being just slightly sharper than her opponents. That's how one rises to the top anywhere.

Re: Mat, you're right, I do think he was channeling Lightsong when he was crafting those backstories.


subwoofer@1197

A couple tiny details. As I was previously corrected about, a balefire death does not destroy a soul permanently. They can take another turn on the Wheel. But due to the reverse timing, they are dead to their current life before the DO can catch them and give them a new body.

Also, even if there have been multiple incarnations of the Dragon between LTT and Rand (I doubt it, but who knows), the forsaken were busy being sealed up for those 3,000 years, not available to be BF'd.

Lavender? No, that's for Northern Cali schools. NTTAWWT


blocksmith@1201

You are correct regarding Sammael's messenger, and his ugly death. Had to be something completely distinct from any Compulsion which was used upon him.
Wilson Grooms
1207. kab1
blocksmith @1201 Wow. my bad. I got totally confused there. Props to you!
T C
1208. Freelancer
Nightbaron@1205

Aes Sedai do not teach unweaving, because it is very dangerous. It isn't a special talent, Aviendha says it's like picking out embroidery, and anyone can do it with practice.

Reading residues is exactly what Merilille was referring to. When she sees Aviendha unweaving the gateway, she demands to know why. Aviendha says she will not give the Seanchan Travelling, and releasing that large a weave in the normal way could leave residues which might still be read in two days. Merilille says that's a very rare talent, and mocks the Aiel channelers as wilders. Aviendha says yes, it isn't very common, but I can do it.

For the complete text of the encounter, see Amalisa@1163
Leigh Butler
1209. leighdb
What, only 1208 comments? Slackers.

Tabernerus @1015:

If infinite Light wins can happen without ending the war, but all it takes is a single Shadow win, then as n (number of cycles of the wheel) gets bigger, the odds of the Shadow winning get bigger. I'm not a math guy, and this is just off the top of my head, but I suspect the odds asymptotically approach 1. Given that, if you thought for a minute that you were doomed to a potential eternity of being spun out to fight this epic battle full of tremendous horrors, either as the Light's champion or the Shadow's champion, wouldn't killing the wheel and ending the game actually seem like a logical option?

The Wheel of Time: where evil is a mathematically valid hypothesis!

This, incidentally, is why I'm not so sure Rand's idea to kill the Dark One is completely loopy.

Philosophically, no, it makes no sense to suppose that you can actually destroy the Source of All Evil, what is light without the dark, balance to the Force, yadda yadda.

That said, the way the rules are currently set up, the odds are so clearly stacked against the Light that it's absurd. And when you can't win the game by following the rules, you win the game by breaking them.

So maybe actually killing the Dark One ain't gonna fly, but Rand is at least on the right track in thinking he has to find some way to break out of the cycle, heh.

Master Al'Thor @ 1086:

Are you dissing my Saints? I'm not sure if you were, but if you were, you better not be. Seven and Oh, baby. SEVEN AND OH.

Freelancer @ 1171:

MY fault! *I* didn't balefire an entire compound blindfolded, sirrah. The noive.
Wilson Grooms
1210. HeWhoComesWithTheNoon
@ Tabernerus

Anyone who claims to not be a math guy but uses the word asymptotically off the top of his head is being a-truthful.

@ leighdb

yeah, that's great, now when are we going to get a reread post! our souls are in danger! our LIVES are in danger ya beatnik!
Galen Brinn
1211. GatheringStorm
Nightbaron @ 1205,

Regarding the Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne: I seem to recall that the Seanchan prophecies are corrupted, planted by Ishamael/Moridin, himself. Therfore (I'm sure that Free or Subwoofer or someone can verify), if this is acutally the case, Rand will NOT bow to the throne as Tuon thinks. The Wikipedia reference to this is found here

Can someone chime in on this?
Bill Reamy
1212. BillinHI
Freelancer @1125: Hadn't really thought about it, but, yeah, given the available and likely females, Lini would be a great choice for Rand's surrogate mother-figure ;)

David-2 @1138: Totally with you on The Last Theorem: As much as I love Clarke (and I have a _lot_ of his books and have re-read most of them at one time or another), that was truly awful.

Longtimefan @1143: "Verin sent me" - LMAO. Moiraine might not get it, but we certainly would!!

Nightbaron @1205: I love your Callandor/Crystal Throne looney theory! Unless all of the Seanchan prophecies are just so much bullhockey, something like that almost has to happen.

leighdb @1209: Yay! re-read now! re-read now! re-read now! re-read now!
Wilson Grooms
1213. Nightbaron
Freelancer @1208

That's fair, although I still think the quote Amalisa posted can be read both ways, and I remember interpreting it differently. I don't have the book with me around to check on full context, so I can defer to your interpretation (for now :P)

GatheringStorm @1211

Yeah, it's actually what I believe as well, that the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted and that Rand need not kneel to the Crystal Throne. As mentioned, it was mostly a loony theory, but which would still allow for it to be fulfilled. After all, while we know(? Was there ever confirmation that the Seanchan versions were corrupted? Mentioned by RJ) that those prophecies are corrupt, we don't know the extent of that corruption, and for all we know, the Crystal Throne bowing might still be part of Randland's side prophecies...
Wilson Grooms
1214. meal6225
Ok I have not gotten through all 1200+ posts so if my comments duplicate others--sorry.

I was so glad I was alone at home when I finished the book. My cheering brought only an odd look from the dog. Finishing that book, say while waiting in a doctor's office, would have been excrutiating to hold back. Rand goes to the mountain pathos followed by Egwene's quiet observation through the Tower wound was just so satisfying. It's the only word that covers what I felt. Followed seconds later by the return of "The Wait". 1 year or 2 till we can hope for ToM?

Rand leaving Bandar Eban to starve; maybe his first scene in ToM will be a quiet return with Avi and they can use the Power to haul a super load of fish out of the ocean.

What use of foreshadowing did any of you perceive?
Nyn healing the child? Random good act or of some importance later?

Hope Mat never finds out how close Rand came to killing his wife. That's going to be a good scene when that truth is revealed to team Light!

Thank You Brandon, Harriet and all of team Jordan!
Wilson Grooms
1215. Lily of the Valley
Re: Olver sneaking into the Tower of Ghenji and breaking the rules.

According the game of Snakes and Foxes, only two pieces are allowed on the board per game. Since THREE people are going into the Tower to begin with, Mat, Thom and Noal have already broken the rules. =3 Olver would be extraneous. I'm not sure that Olver sneaking in wouldn't break Moiraine's warning about "If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all." either. Personally, I'm hoping he DOESN'T sneak in.

I'm not certain what role he's supposed to play. This little guy is growing up with a ta'veren, Jain Farstrider and the Greatest Daes Dae Mar player EVER as Uncles/Caretakers, not to mention Birgitte as a Big Sister and the Queen of Andor and Malkier as nannies [no matter that he hasn't seen them since Ebou Dar]. Even if he isn't pivotal up to and including TG, it doesn't mean he won't be super important in the Rebuild after everything goes down.
Ben Goodman
1217. goodben
Only up to ~700 on the comments, but at this point I don't know if I'll catch up.

Thoughts:

I enjoyed the book immensely. The style is somewhat different, but the only time it was painful was in reading the "Wind arose" section. Jordan wrote prettier prose, but Sanderson does other things better (plotting, characterization).

Perrin, Nynaeve, Gawyn, and Rand all seemed more self-aware. I thought there was a big improvement in Perrin. He knows that he's been irresponsible and wants to fix it, even if he doesn't know how he's going to handle all his problems.

Mat and Nynaeve were different than how Jordan wrote them in that their POVs were not so deliciously contradictory. With Nynaeve this was more seamless because it seems like she's finally growing up, but it stood out more with Mat. I still liked Mat's sections though. By the way, I didn't get a zombie vibe in Hinderstrap, but I've never seen 28 Days Later which seems to be the comparison point.

I really liked Rand's comments to Nynaeve on his understanding that his desire to be hard isn't healthy. This makes him seem less dumb. He just hadn't made the connection to the fact that the champion of the Light can't be a second Shadow (Aridhol -> Shadar Logoth) or the world will be no better off.

I liked the sections with Bryne talking to Gawyn. If all the world were like Bryne, the DO wouldn't stand a chance.

I liked how we're being exposed to more secondary Aes Sedai that are actually grounded in reality like Seiane and Suona (spelling?). The Ajah heads should all be fired; their incompetence and scheming is as much to blame as Elaida and the BA.

The American in me ("The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots") is mildly annoyed with Egwene and her "the White Tower must be whole at all costs" attitude and making the Rebels apologize, although I can see how that helps unity which is what they need now that the conflict is over. There is no sin in rebelling against the Wrong.

On the other hand, I don't find anything upsetting about her desire to guide Rand. Rand has shown that he needs guidance. He's still young and has made quite a few errors of judgment. Egwene IS fairly arogant herself (she needs an official deflater as much as Rand), but I think she has grown enough to be willing to take advice/guidance most of the time.

Egwene's umbrage over the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai is completely reasonable. Aes Sedai view unautorized Warder bonding as akin to rape. Just because someone is trying to kill you does not give you authority to rape them.

Oh, and the Semirhage spanking incident was almost certainly written before Leigh vented on the Perrin/Faile spanking incident. It's still funny though.

Most annoying part of the book? The name Fortuona. The name sounds way too Latin derived, especially when you consider the Mat = luck connection. I'm thinking that this is a rookie mistake for Sanderson, but then I remember that Jordan made similar connections to vocabulary form our Age with the Aiel words for corn and cotton and a few others. This still bugs me more for some reason while I found it cool with the Aiel.

Speculation:

Most likely the Tower BA wigged out because there was a pre-arranged meeting/message that was supposed to come from the Rebels that didn't happen which caused them to panic. We know that the higher ups can Travel.
Rob Munnelly
1218. RobMRobM
@1209 - my hypothesis about Leigh's late night partying to celebrate Saints' victories, leading to late posts on Monday, confirmed at last. Now you know. Rob
Roger Powell
1219. forkroot
Freelancer, you are correct; however, I am interrupting my hunt down of MagicDragon (@1189) to post the following ...

Hi Leigh! Here's a suggestion: When you resume the reread, how about tackling New Spring? I realize it's slightly out of publishing order, but I know you said you would include it. My thoughts are that since we've broken the "flow" so to speak, this would be a good time to jump back in WoT time and tackle the prequel. Whaddya think?

Now back to the hunt ... I've enlisted my editorial assistant John Woodpulp (known to his friends as "Jackie Paper") and we are going to make MagicDragon go Puff!
Ben Goodman
1220. goodben
I don't think that Graendal being balefired means anything with respect to Who-killed-Asmo.

1) It's likely too long ago that he was killed for the balefiring to undo it. Anyone got the timeline on this? It's been months if not a year, I think.

2) Brandon saying that he would reveal it means nothing. When he said that he could have been intending to do so and then it got cut or just couldn't be worked in.

I do wonder if Jordan's comments in his blog (or at a signing--I don't remember) that the place was he was at was one of the reasons the DO couldn't reincarnate him means that he was slurped into T'A'R or *finnland before he died. If so, that would point to Lanfear (or maybe Slayer).

Ultimately though, I've always been of the opinion that Jordan was playing with us when he said it was obvious. I've been inclined towards the Slayer hypothesis, but not wedded to it.
Roger Powell
1221. forkroot
goodben@1271
A lot of good points in your post, but I disagree with this one:
Egwene's umprage over the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai is completely reasonable. Aes Sedai view unautorized Warder bonding as akin to rape. Just because someone is trying to kill you does not give you authority to rape them.
OK, in our world, if someone is trying to kill you and you are able to overcome them, you work through the justice system to get the would-be killer incarcerated so that he/she is no longer a threat to you. Since there was no equivalent option in Randland, the Asha'man had a choice between killing the Tower AS or forcibly bonding them. It seems to me that they chose the kinder of the two options, especially since it does not appear that the bonded Tower AS are treated all that poorly. Certainly they are better off than had they been incarcerated.
Sam Mickel
1222. Samadai
Forkroot,

I always wanted to hunt a dragon.
R B
1223. MasterAlThor
Freelancer @1206

Yes there are more sports than football, but to me that is the only one that matters.

Just remember USC and UCLA have to bow down to Michigan, Notre Dame and Texas. Keep trying to catch up tho.

Leighdb @1209

Oh to be recognized by the creator herself. Such an honor. No I am not dissin your Saints. I was just pointing out to that Raiders fan (pointing at Freelancer) that there are worse teams.

I hope that the Saints play the Colts in the SuperBowl. Offensive firepower at it's finest.

Drew Brees is a helluva player. I dislike all things Manning, but I have major respect for all things Manning.

I know that when the Lions meet the Saints in the playoffs that the Lions will win. *dives for the bunker*
nolan
1224. topknot
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading something in one of Mat's POV's that he still had some "desire"(not sure if this is the correct word) for the dagger that Fain has. I'm wondering what is going to happen if Mat should run into Fain again and see the dagger.
Ben Goodman
1225. goodben
@1221 forkroot

Whether it is kinder is in the eye of the beholder. Do you think that Egwene would think being leashed is preferable to death? With the level of compulsion avialable through the Asha'man bond is it that much different than an a'dam? Granted that Logain et al. appear to be using it with a light touch, but the potential for abuse is high.

Bottom line: warder bonding in Aes Sedai culture is supposed to be consensual. Doing it without consent is grounds for censure no matter how good the reason.
R B
1226. MasterAlThor
topknot...

You are correct sir.

My thoughts are...nothing good. While I believe that Mat has the ability to resist the pull of the dagger, we haven't seen him have to resist the temptation of daggers presense yet.

Looney Theory Time.....

What if Mat giving up half the light of the World is Mat taking the dagger back?

I know, I know. But that is why it is a looney theory.

Besides it's a moot point anyway cause forkroot is using it to hunt dragons.

Be vewy vewy qwuite.
Wilson Grooms
1227. douglasm
Nightbaron @1205 and 1213

If unraveling a weave were a Talent, the Aes Sedai reaction would have been a raised eyebrow and a comment about Aviendha having such a rare ability, not a paraphrase of "O shit we're all going to die!" (going from memory here, but I'm pretty sure that's a fair summation) Elayne also would not have attempted it with her own gateway soon after, as she would have known quite well that it was not possible for her. Furthermore, no one mentions Talents at all until after Avi mentions residues and the possibility of reading them.
R B
1228. MasterAlThor
blcoksmith @1201

Why of course we could start a petition, but would it be accepted?

That is above my paygrade, though I would/will sign.

Maybe someone like ohh I don't know say....Wetlandernw, Freelancer, Subwoofer or forkroot could start it.

Ain't I a stinker?
Tess Laird
1229. thewindrose
I know that when the Lions meet the Saints in the playoffs that the Lions will win. *dives for the bunker*

Talk about an alternate universe MasterAlThor!
Or it could be the True Power warping you mind...hmmmm

I am also getting a good chuckle at Freelancer as guru. Free, I don't think you're going to be able to shake that one.

Sorila is so weak in the power, she would not have been able to undo the wards. She could have shown someone, but I fail to see a good case building her up as a dark friend.
As the DO's touch grows so does Shadar's powers. We know he can negate both halves of the one power, and he is able to do some things with the true power - shredding clothes, gagging, binding. I think he is behind negating the wards and setting up Cads. What will be interesting in the next books is that he is not a good little Moridin follower - he does that DO's bidding, so there is sure to be some conflict between those two. And someone needs to step up and be a scary evil person!
Matthew Smith
1230. blocksmith
Kab1@1207

You are gracious to the last...Leigh's re-read and this review are the only (and I mean that literally) internet comment posts/blogs I have commented on, ever, so thank you very much. And no worries at all, I am sure I have repeated points that have been asked and answered.

Hewhocomeswiththenoon@1210

Careful...Leigh "She Who Quotes Legend" Butler may be a toaster. The more you ask, the longer your wait. But I don't think so...RobmRobm nailed it. There's no party like a 'Nawlins party.

Nightbaron@1205

I like your PF+SH=0 theorem. The physical embodiment of Aridhol meets the physical embodiment of the DO. Nice and neat...two abhorrent characters take each other out and Rand is left to deal with Moridin. Well done, Mr. Baron, well done.
Wilson Grooms
1231. AndrewB
I am an infrequent poster but avid reader of both WOT (obviously, or I would not be viewing this thread) and of Leigh's re-reads.

I have several comments (due to the length of this thread, I will go by memory [i.e. not respond directly to above posts]; if that puts me on people's not-read list, so be it).

I was impressed with the quality of the TGS. I appreciated that plots were wrapped up and the novel contained lots of action.

Count me in the minority with Mat. I thought BrS handled Mat's character mostly on point (I agree with the prevoius poster who refers to the new author of WoT as "BrS"). His conversation with Talm reflected Mat's fears and realization that he was now married (I am awful at spelling the characters' names. Therefore, I will abreviate as much as possible. Again, live with it). The conversation where he complained to Talms was an extension of his inner monologues (sp?) vi-sa-vi women in the last several books.

My only gripe with Mat is his going "Hollywood." The writing of the backstories for the planned trip to the second village required a lot of work. Mat's character previously avoids work whenever possible.

With respect to Rand's possible bowing before the Crystal Throne, IIRC, the Crystal Throne is in Sendar. I thought I read somewhere that RJ said that during the course of WoT, all scenese (excepting the scene in TFOH w/ Rand and Avi) would take place in Randland proper (i.e. not in the Seanchan Empire homeland. If I am correct, Rand cannot/will not bow to the throne.

By the way, my favorite dialogue on the TGS was Mat's conversation w/ Joline when he was rescuing her in Groundhog Day Land (where she asks what Mat is doing charging up the stairs with waepons; Mat responds trying to rescue her; Joline answers that she does not need rescuing; Mat counters with asking Joline why she is still at the inn?). For me, great dialogue.

Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
j p
1232. sps49
gagecreedlives @1195-

LTT wants to kill Taim and the Forsaken; if he vouches for Weiramon I am done worrying about him.

But there will be a last minute betrayal from someone, y'all mark my words!

Edit: AndrewB, Joline is trying to forget Mat's rescue from Ebou Dar; she won't want another rescue she has to pretend didn't happen. Very inconsiderate of Mat, if you ask me....
Wilson Grooms
1233. Jelsel
right, too many reactions too read them all.

First, bloody loved the book!!!!

second, may'be somebody said it before but

sword of glass and the three shall be as one,

my first thought was the three ta'veren will be as one. (don't know how but that's pretty much putting in the damage amplifier)

any thoughts?
Michael Catapano
1234. hoping
What would happen if a townsperson in the zombie town was balefired? Would they come back the next day or are they toast? Would that be similar to crossing the streams in a cosmic sense?
Enquiring mind(s) want to know.
Roger Powell
1235. forkroot
AndrewB@1231
With respect to Rand's possible bowing before the Crystal Throne, IIRC, the Crystal Throne is in Sendar. I thought I read somewhere that RJ said that during the course of WoT, all scenese (excepting the scene in TFOH w/ Rand and Avi) would take place in Randland proper (i.e. not in the Seanchan Empire homeland. If I am correct, Rand cannot/will not bow to the throne.
You make a good point, however there is still one possibility. It seems likely that the Seanchan will gain Traveling (from Elaida if not another captured AS). If so, I could see Fortuona (yuck ... hate that name!) ordering the Crystal Throne brought to Randland proper in order to fulfill the Seanchan idea of the prophecy.

hoping@1234 (that's a fun number to get)
What would happen if a townsperson in the zombie town was balefired? Would they come back the next day or are they toast? Would that be similar to crossing the streams in a cosmic sense?
Enquiring mind(s) want to know.
A good question. I would think that BF would take the person out of it, but I'm not sure. I could see a Brown sister who knows the BF weave performing an experiment ...
Wilson Grooms
1236. Tonybere
Hello again. This is not a terribly important thought, but I loved the foreshadowing of "Hinderstrap." Most of us (reading in English) would have a tendency to pronounce it Hinder-strap, but quite obviously it would be more poignantly called Hinder's Trap. As in a trap for one who stays behind. It made me wonder why one was to Trust Air in the next village, or perhaps take a Tru Stair. Guess we didn't need to find out about that one, but it made me look sideways at every name present and past.

Edit: this IS taking a long time to load. We are going to break the pretty Tor.com!
Thomas Keith
1237. insectoid
Samadai @1155 & Tonybere @1236: I'm noticing it too--Leigh, I don't know if this thread will make it through the weekend...
Rob Munnelly
1238. RobMRobM
@1236 - yep. Now too lengthy to review on my blackberry without getting an error message.

1231/35. Nope - Tuon will end up being bound to Rand rather than vice versa, per the Karethon Cycle (i.e., the real one). No throne for you!

1231. Thoughtful first post. Welcome. Yes on the Hollywood comment - exactly got my problem with the scene - and yes on the Joline dialog being strong.

Rob
Patrick Huff
1239. pattack
After re-reading Tuons audience with Beslan, I am convinced thoroughly that she is Ta'veren.
Wilson Grooms
1240. MagicDragon
1204 Douglasm
Thanks for the link. It kills the end for me abit as it makes the way Rand killed Graendal seem not so soullessly evil. The info also helped me to understand why Cadsuane makes a big deal about Rand using balefire.

I think my favorite part of the book has changed to Verin's last hour. She, of course, picked exactly the right person to give the information. That it led to Egwene sending 120+ (if I remember correctly) Black Ajah to the headsman in a single day makes it sweeter. I've been looking foward to the black being exposed and booted from the tower.

1206 Freelancer
HAHA ya, I suppose I did run on a bit there. And likely a few misspellings too.

1217 Goodben
I was surprised by that Egwene intended to make the Rebels appologize. But after she did a that nice verbal smackdown on the sitters moments after them raising her it made sence. I agree to help unity, she wanted give them all a dose of humility to say they are all equally at fault, no one stood superior.
Tyler Durden
1241. Balance
Free @1158: I most definitely agree. From a tactical perspective the way Rand killed G was pretty much the best way to go. I simply meant from a literary point of view. The same way I understand the emotional dynamics of Semi’s break down….However I didn’t like the way they were played out. I would trade all the chapters with Elayne’s ascension for Rand making a mistake and playing G’s game fer a bit. I think it would be interesting writing. The 13th Depo website may be to blame for this. I really liked the article on Arad Doman being G’s private little sanitarium. All the fucked up mind games she coulda played with Rand, how that could push him further to darkness, ect. THEN Rand got hardcore and nuked a city. I understand this would make for a long book. So I’ve graciously offered Elayne’s chapters for sacrifice. (yes I know they are in a different book) Oh and some of the ones with Fail. And any chapter that has too much discussion about dresses.

I have noticed other posters ( Amalisa, ect.) have shown an interest in this character as well. I think the general idea is that some folks would like the FS to be a little more badass on screen. I do believe that G is toast. I believe that was the right way to do it. I guess I’m just being greedy. I mean what’s not to like about a half naked hottie screwing with yer head for a few chapters?
T C
1242. Freelancer
Leighdb@1209

Your fault for raising the idea that without a body we can't be certain. The erased-Compulsion trick is solid proof that Graendal went poof.


Nightbaron@1213

I believe the passage Amalisa included provides all of the context required.
"Few can do it," Aviendha admitted calmly. "But I can." That produced a different sort of stare, from Elayne as well; it was a very rare Talent.

Now, by your interpretation, Aviendha is talking about unweaving. However, the sisters are already staring at her because of her unweaving, and she would have no need to tell them that she could do it, because she's busy doing it. The "different sort of stare" is for her declaration of possessing a rare talent. Since they already see her doing the unweaving, their surprise over her statement cannot be for that, but for reading old residues.


forkroot@1219

Don't lose him in the Autumn mist.


MasterAlThor@1223

Oh please. Don't even get me started on all those 70's and 80's years of corrupted polls. Many seasons where everybody knew that either USC or UCLA was the finest team in the NCAA, but convoluted methods conspired to keep them from a national championship. But I understand. When all your state has is a college football team or two, you gotta stand up for it. Gotta go, surf's up...


AndrewB@1231

Welcome aboard. No worries, it takes pointless and egregious use of profanity, or intense rudeness to others to cause me to not read what you write. You're fine. One thing, if the Seanchan do indeed have Traveling now because of the White Tower raid, they can fetch the Crystal Throne to Ebou Dar.

Edit: Gah, forkroot strikes first@1235 while I'm editing...


Tonybere@1236

Only problem with all of that is that there is but one "r" in the town name. Hinderstap.



pattack@1239

Not.


MagicDragon@1206

Nah, you didn't run on. Have you seen some of my epics? It was a joke about forkroot complaining that folks get lose and loose swapped from time to time. Which you did.
Jane Smyth
1243. Kaboom
I have not read the entire page (damn work which had to become crazy busy at just the worst time!) so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.

Could it be that Egwene fortelling about the a Seanchan helping her actually mean the Seanchan as a whole helping her reunite the tower as a concrete result of the attack? That attack removed Elaida from the tower and cleared the path for Egwene to prove once and for all that she is the best canditate for the Amyrlin Seat.

And PS I really don't think the blight can be compared to Canada!! Way to cold and beside we are very nice people... :)
Sam Mickel
1244. Samadai
Re: Forsaken Forsaken

I think that the ways we have in mind for the Forsaken to die are too demanding. Lets not forget that these 13 people are just the 13 that survived the breaking of the world (albeit in the DO's prison). There were probably hundreds more left alive to fend for themselves as the world was torn apart(even by the dreadlord males who had no protection from the taint). So all we have is 3000 years of stories about how the 13 are the most terrible force of darkness on the planet.

They are not. They are just mere humans with the same failings as all of us, pride, vanity, greed etc. So why should we think that they are going to be better than any everyday Randlander. They have no special abilities or powers( although they have more power abilities than current Randlanders) and they make the same mistakes as everyone else.

Graendal made the most serious mistake someone like her could make. She knew she was more intelligent than Rand and figured no matter what he would do she was smarter and could come up with a better plan.

These humans use their own arrogance to bring themselves down.

Semirhage's breaking is completely believable to me. she arrogantly believed that no torture could force her to talk. She was the Torturer and could withstand anything that was done to her(because she was a masochist and knew how to embrace and enjoy pain). Her pride was her downfall, her reputation was her crutch. as soon as Cadsuane kicked out the crutch her pride was gone. That is what she relied on since turning to the shadow and now she had nothing.
Sammael was arrogant, Be'lal was boastful, Rahvin lustful, Lanfear was crazy, all arrogant human emotions that cause people to fail 1000's of times over.

So anyways that is my take on the fall of the Forsaken. take it as you will.

edit: I meant to say that Lanfear was jealous and envious
Ben Goodman
1245. goodben
@854 Freelancer

I don't think that Graendal's thoughts on this are conclusive at all.

1) Graendal doesn't know this information of herself, but through her agents.

2) Highly unlikely that Graendal's agents in the White Tower know who Mesaana is since the other BA do not.

3) Graendal due to her own personality is likely to assume that she would hide in a position of power.

4) Just because she thinks it doesn't mean she's right.
Jacy Clark
1246. Amalisa
Nightbaron@1213 and Freelancer@1242

A little farther down in the same paragraph (and I should have included it but I was juggling book and cat):

...it was a very rare talent. She did not seem to notice. "Do you claim that none of the Shadowsouled can?" she went on. The tightness of her shoulder under Elayne's hand said she was not as cool as she pretended. "Are you such fools that you leave tracks for your enemies to follow? Any who could read the residues could make a gateway to this spot."


That pretty much clears it up, I think. The Talent in question is reading residues and not unweaving. Although, obviously, that's pretty difficult, too...

And, yes, this page is loading waaaaaay slow! I'm having to use Opera now in the interest of speed, and that isn't making me happy! *lol*
Wilson Grooms
1247. Valan
OK i'm a slow reader and its going to take me a long time to read these comments. Over 1200?? Damn.
I've read 240 so far and I haven't heard this mentioned yet.

One of the main things that really irked me about Mat's passages was the constant use of the phrase "bloody ashes!"

When has this been used without a "blood and" in front of it? Every time I read it I had to stop and mentally change it to "blood and ashes" or "blood and bloody ashes." Maybe I'm just insane and making shit up IDK. What do ya'll think? I haven't had time to check earlier books to make sure. (ahg work!)
Wilson Grooms
1248. dg78
As for all those who think Graendal is still alive, I say: Not enough series left to kill her again... >.>
A Jeeves
1249. Artur al Yorks
Regarding Min's investigations on how to help Rand win. She has, correctly it seems, determined that the scholarly interpretation (Commentary) of the Karaethon Cycle that asserts " three becoming on" is wrong, and has for now accepted that Cadsuane Sedai's interpretation that a a circle of three using Callandor is needed. Yet we are led to believe that Min herself will be the one to unravel the mystery. Cadsuane is also wrong! The three are just possibly the three boys, united at the end, together facing the DO and their combined Ta'veren effect is enough to destroy the force of evil - the pattern has spun to save itself.

btw ....... My thanks & admiration Leigh for the almost Verin like devotion (and service) to we followers of the WoT series. A respected Keeper of the Chronicles.
Chris
1250. woody145
I don't think the "Rand" that has been around for the last couple of books (maybe since the box incident) has really been Rand at all. I think what we were reading as "Rand" has really been Lews Therin. In the Last Chapter of TGS "Rand" is clearly talking to himself as though he were Lews. And he also refers to the voice in his head not sounding like Lews at all anymore. I think it was Rand who was whispering to Lews and not the other way around. Rand was the voice, in his head and in his heart. Rand would never refer to Tam as Tam, he would have been Dad no matter what. So the "Dragon Reborn" was literally blind, Lews has been control for a long time, now Rand has regained control of himself. Anywho, I'm just glad the sheepherder is back.
Roger Powell
1251. forkroot
Pablo or Torie

Help! This thread has gotten really long. One idea might be to cap it and put a link to it after Leigh's article and then open up for a fresh set of comments.

At the moment, this thread is the only place to post "spoilerific" comments. I've noticed everyone being very responsible to avoid that on the regular reread posts.
Barry T
1252. blindillusion
forkroot@1251

I second the motion.

woody145@1250

I remember thinking something along those lines when I read, "And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while."

But I take it to mean he has his heart back...that small voice that spoke to him throughout the novel.

Either that, or he spent a long time on Dragonmount with his eyes closed. =)
Wilson Grooms
1253. MagicDragon
Freelancer 1242
Doh! I reread my post 3 times before posting and still missed that, sorry Forkroot.

dg78 1248
ROFL I agree Rand killed her, but I find your logic interesting.

Valan 1247
I don't recall Mat or any other character always using 'blood and bloody ashes' as it was a swear with emphasis. I belive Mat used that curse more then others, in part to give him the drinking, gambling, bad boy reputation but also he seemed more freaked out by his being obvious Ta'veren.

Artur al Yorks 1249
Interesting thought, as he is supposed to use Callandor it does look obvious that it would be Rand and 2 women channeling becoming one weapon against the Dark One. Though I think you are on to something there, that maybe with Callandor, Mat and Perrin he will be able to manipulate the pattern itself to seal the Dark One back in his prison.
A Jeeves
1254. Artur al Yorks
Rescuing Moiraine; The DO extricated Lanfear, but she was damaged, weaker in the power. Though I'm not certain her experience is behind her change (also personality and appearance), could Moiraine be the same we knew, or, as I suspect, no longer have the ability. Not stilled, that can be cured, but completely normal. That would help Thom a lot
The rescue has many possibilities for Mat, he must learn 'something' when defeating the Aelfinn & Eelfinn, they give true answers for one thing ........ and I doubt Moiraine has wasted her time there. Her venture into Rhuidean forewarned her of her capture (and possible rescue), so I'm certain she will have gleaned from them what it is she/Rand/the world need to know.
Question; how far does the Aelfinn power to foretell extend into the future go? It does not seem that they see many 'possible' options as when in Rhuidean or the Tower ter'angreal, but have the certainty of knowing - how when there must be uncertainty? What wishes might be demanded by the rescuers themselves from the Eelfinn .......... or is any sort of conversation likely?
It will, for many reasons, be interesting to discover what is in store for us when we do eventually join Thom and his friends at the impenetrable Tower of Ghenjei.
Please Tor, do not make us wait too long.
T C
1255. Freelancer
Kaboom@1243

Mentioned, @753 & @800


goodben@1245

So Graendal's agents, when she muses that they report on Mesaana's activities, are making stuff up? That would be a very large, very unhealthy gamble. Whatever.


Valan@1247

Mentioned. See 493, 605, 610, 617, 620, 631.
Seriously, ctrl-F work quite efficiently, even in Exploder 6. You don't have to study each comment to find out if someone has brought up the same idea. Search.
john massey
1256. subwoofer
@GCL- ahhh, I stand corrected, I should have known a fellow Commonwealth member by now:)

@Free- I have been thinking heavily on the 3 in 3 out riddle. I think it is commonly accepted( and in one of my previous rants I have said as much) that Noal is the fodder on that trip. I believe to trip the door to the seamless tower they have to honor the prescripts to a certain extent. I was just thinking outside the box and maybe suggesting somebody stick their foot in the door and have the odd Red Arm sneak through. Then you would also have the obligitory "red shirt security personal"(8:39) that gets sacrificed to the 'Finn.

Leigh! Yay! See M A T, she does exist! Just like Santa!

more to say, got company!!!

Woof™.
T C
1257. Freelancer
MagicDragon@1253

I think perhaps you missed the point of Valan's comment @1247. Until this volume, the phrase "bloody ashes" never occured on its own, but only as "blood and bloody ashes". Some folks noted the distinction as possibly a continuity issue due to changing authors.
Barry T
1258. blindillusion
Blood and bloody ashes

Oddly enough, you'd think this statement would have been used more.

Could Idealseek be wrong?

Oh, also according to the above "bloody ashes" has never been used as a lone curse.

Edit: Opps, Free already mentioned that.
T C
1259. Freelancer
blindillusion@1258

IdealSeek has it right. The more common phrase, with 132 responses, is "blood and ashes". As noted by subwoofer & others, it is likely that this phrase which has some folks twitching was inadvertently substituted for the previously much more common form of the curse.

And does anybody seriously think Team Jordan would be perusing this forum just hunting for continuity issues to correct?
Wilson Grooms
1260. kab1
wow. tor.com ate my post. a first for me!

I agree with forkroot @1251 a new thread would be nice. Pablo, Torie, we'd love you more than we do already.

@Free heh, you crack me up. I hope Team Jordan is not reading these 1200+ comments for continuity issues (yeah right) I hope they're way too busy working on Towers of Midnight continuity issues and all. Seriously BrS is an amazingly fast writer, I have trouble even typing up these posts.

@Leigh your Saints are looking pretty good. Maybe even 10-0 in a few weeks with their schedule (hope I didn't jinx them!) but we'll see what happens when they meet the Vikings in the playoffs!
Wilson Grooms
1262. Silvertip
"Balance to the Force, yadda yadda yadda" has a nice ring, Leigh! If you do not object, I may adopt it as a catchphrase.

@various re breaking the Ghenjei rules: IIRC, the "three, no more no less" was not a rule set by the 'Finn, i.e., good to break if you can get away with it, but came from Moiraine's visions in the rings, which we assume to be accurate. Somebody sneaking in as a 4th somehow would not be a good thing for the home team.

Concerning the End Times: Leigh makes a very good point, as one would expect from the Chief Wisdom of All WoT. There has been a lot of foreshadowing that this time around the Wheel things have to be different, for better or worse, that the advantage to the Shadow of only needing to win once is untenable. And yet ... I'm remembering a lot of interactions with Herid Fel implying that the goal needs to be essentially the status quo ante, that is, the Dark One sealed in his prison that has somehow been made whole rather than patched. We assume that, through Min, Fel's thinking will have a big influence on Rand's strategy heading into TG. So the planned resolution, IMHO, will look like something that reconciles these two threads. If we can imagine what that looks like, we may have a big clue to what is pretty much the Biggest remaining Big Question. Specifically, I'd think we're pretty safe in assuming that AMoL will not see the Shadow victorious ... but what does a "victory" for the good guys look like in this world at this time?

Damn, I'm just going to stick myself in a stasis box until the last two books are out.

If I can risk a RW parallel without incurring the wrath of Torie, I think folks who work on habitat protection and wilderness preservation will recognize one aspect of this situation. It doesn't matter how many times you beat back the guys with the bulldozers and cement trucks: If you fall short just once, they've defeated you for all time.

On the topic of the End Times, I do really like Nightbaron's (@1125) scenario of Logain being the public face of the (presumed) victory of the Light in the last battle, while Rand fights the crucial fight at the level of souls and salvation out of general sight. It could be wrong, but it has a satisfying feel to me.

And for those having trouble with the site, you can blame Master Al Thor, who used the words "Lions" and "playoffs" in the same sentence a while ago. Such a severe disturbance of the natural order cannot go without consequence.

BTTFYYY,

S
john massey
1263. subwoofer
'K, where was I before the in-laws descended upon me? Oh yeah, causin' a ruckus. M A T, the covers of the comics are leaps and bounds above the dreck that is book covers. I could start an angry mob with burning torches and pitch forks but what is the point? What is, is.

@Free
And does anybody seriously think Team Jordan would be perusing this forum just hunting for continuity issues to correct?


YES!- well okay, maybe not hunting for no-prizes but geeze, we are great company and a serious brain trust here. There is a feel to these threads that really reflects the spirit of WoT. And Leigh is the Grand Poobah, so you can't go wrong.

@Samadai- you make some very strong points. The Forsaken are an exaggeration of human faults amplified, lust, pride, sloth, greed, anger etc. They have had a period of time to perfect these faults. The Forsaken have also had time to perfect their wielding of the Source. They were around in the AoL when things were at the peak of understanding. The Collam Daam is a place that Rand is trying mimic. Suffice it to say, the Forsaken carry a knowledge with them of things that are being rediscovered, things that were lost in the Breaking.

And the Forsaken have big juju. Eggs and Co are conveniently blessed with power levels not seen in ages but they just match the Forsaken. They do not carry more juice than the "Chosen". Don't forget the stasis boxes either. Betcha there are serious toys in there.

P.S. Leigh(Santa) for Christmas I would like a fresh post... Unless we keep on this thread and burn to 2000.

@Hoping- inquiring minds? I'm thinking these reevers would come back regardless. I think their souls get parked in limbo at night and so even with bale fire, all will be like the movie. How's tomorrow?;) Try a pie.

Woof™.
Henry Loose
1264. schrodinger
@subwoofer

Reevers. I had forgotten about them... they gave me nightmares the first time I saw firefly/serenity. That was one of the best shows/movie ever. Too bad it was canceled.

A perfect analogy, same with groundhog day.
Andrew Lovsness
1265. drewlovs
I am trying to get through all the posts, and as such, I'll see if I have anything left to say before making any book-derived words.

BUT!

Does anyone else think of "Comfortably Numb" by Pink Floyd when reading the Rand PoVs? That song must have been what Jordan listened to when getting in the mood to write for our main character...

"There is no pain, you are receding...
A distant ship's smoke on the horizon.
You are only coming through in waves;
your lips move, but I can't hear what you are saying."
Lynn McDonald
1266. meal6225
If "Saints" and "playoffs" started the fall maybe this will be the final straw....

Go Bengals!!!!!!!

err Go Grolm!!!!!!!!!
Henry Loose
1267. schrodinger
just got my second copy of tGS... amazon is so slow, and I'm glad I was able to get a copy from AU's bookstore.
Lindy Brown
1268. lbrown
@ 856. schrodinger
we know that Lanfear died, but we don't know about Moiraine (the most proof we have that she's dead is Lan's bond, but we don't know how going to 'Finnland affects that bond

Brandon wrote on his blog that he's surprised how many people take it for granted that Moiraine is alive. That made me kind of worried. But maybe he's just trying to mess with us. Moiraine better be alive!
Noneo Yourbusiness
1269. Longtimefan
@ 1268 lbrown

Darn tootin' Moiraine better be alive. How is Mat going to rescue a corpse?
T C
1270. Freelancer
It would be hard to not believe that Moiraine is alive, given a few tiny details:

- Egwene's dream of Thom pulling her kesiera out of a fire
- Min's vision of Moiraine helping Rand to victory, that she still thinks is her only one to have failed
- Moiraine's letter to Thom saying that in spite of all appearances, she is not dead
Wilson Grooms
1271. Planeswalker
I don't care about Moiraine. I want to see Meirin's! :) peace!
Lindy Brown
1272. lbrown
@ 1071. Freelancer
I did imagine she was a BA plant, but not Delana. First off, she's with a forsaken, she doesn't need to "hide out". Second, I guarantee she wants to be as far as possible from that camp now the whistle's been blown.

Yeah, that all makes sense and occured to me after the fact. I think that the last Delana and Halima were seen was at the Traveling ground, where they obviously Travelled to somewhere.

But at the time (when I was reading it) I was so convinced that it was Delana! I don't know why! Well maybe because I knew it was going to be someone we'd met before, the description fit, and you know, there may be some reason why Delana (and Halima) came back and are hanging around.
Andrew Lovsness
1273. drewlovs
I got to 176, Rob being awesome and strutting his stuff, and realized I needed to put my thng down before the site gets broken.

As to the "grain going bad" due to the fisher king connection, we get another hint with Cadsuane, when she talks to her informant. Nothin good is balancing the bad for Rand these days... I wish I had just went out and bought my book at midnight, and not pre-ordered. I'm way late here.

Since everyone has there opinion on Avi and her arc being/not being too long, I will jump in with my "like" opinion. She has ALWAYS been stubborn, that is part of her character; why wouldn't she take a bit longer?

Matt was a bit off for me as well, but I took it in stride. When Mr. Jordan died, Mat died with him. Heck, look at the picture they used for Mr. Jordan in the back of the book: he is wearing Mat's hat. He IS Mat, and no one can write an autobiography based in fantasy except for the subject. Its painful for me to even think about, but there you go.

Perrin's wagon fixing sucked. Sorry. 1oo,ooo people, and HE has to go over wagons? Please. As much as I think it is something Perrin would TRY to do, it isn't something Faile/Berlain/wise women would put up with. Argue if you want, but I would have expected them to put him on to other things. Maybe they would be unsuccessful, but still. Why couldn't he be yelling, "NEXT!" over a mug of ale?

I liked the Elaida self-destruction, and we had hints of Padan Fain's corruption, but strangely, not enough. I have no doubt she made her mistakes due to his corruption; we just didn't get to see the path downhill.

As far as the Rand/Lan thing... its the black ooze seeping out of Rand that inspires the hateful comments. Who, do you think, will sevre RAND'S black cord? It has to be done in dreamland... so Egwene, you think? Yeah,I am making assumptions, but we got a year to work these things over...

Lastly, the Graendel thing didn't bother me at all. One of the biggest questions I had about her was, what to do with all her pets when she dies? Rand answers this nicely. However, this book made me wonder if the Dark One pushed Graendel to get more active for Rand to find her and nuke her. Her compulsion on the noble was a bit risky for her to do, but it made sense with the pressure she is under to "get busy." Perhaps the Dark One was expecting Rand to use the True Power to nuke her? Imagine how much True Power he would have to draw to get that piece of work done...

Here is a wacky idea... we known the Eyeless uber, SH (can't find the spelling) remembers a time of being unleashed. Is there a connection to Moridin that we DON'T know about? Was he once a "forsaken" to a previous Dark One? Makes ya think...
Wilson Grooms
1274. DarthZemus
I haven't noticed anyone as affected by the Rand/Tam reunion as I was (granted, I haven't read every post, so sorry if I missed ya)

For some reason, it was one of the most heart thumping moments in this entire series for me. Perhaps the way Rand's descent into madness was handled in this book, as he started weaving that balefire, I had a firm belief that Tam was gonna go "poof."

As he stepped through the gateway, I felt heartbreak.

Rand's arc will be the what was most memorable about Book 12 for me. I have to believe that Rands story was the most "complete" of what RJ left behind, so I rarely felt taken out of his storyline by a percieved "Sanderson-ism."

But let's give BS his due. What a tough job, and such little time to get this put together in not only a coherent way, but a substantial and significant way.

I think someone else mentioned that the editors are more to blame for anything that seems out of place, whether it be a phrasing or off-key dialogue.

The break neck pace of writing required means it will be IMPOSSIBLE for him to get things 100% right without some top-notch editing.

This is a tall task, man...(or womans), help the boy out!!

In the end- SOLID, SOLID job. Hope he gets a better grasp of Matt for the next 2. I can't believe that he wouldn't. I think the Matt stuff in GS was filler, and as he takes center stage, it'll get better.

Nice job.
R B
1275. MasterAlThor
Freelancer....

Oh my friend we do have more that just a college team or two. Can you say Red Wings? The Tiggers are coming along and the Pistons might not be the Lakers but at least we can compete and agree with our mutual hatered of the accursed Celtics.

As for the polls...what does that have to do with victories? You win or don't. And right now neither of our teams (Lions or Wolverines) are winning much.

Subwoofer....

Yes angry mob is the way to go.

Leigh exsists but Santa doesn't. If you wish to believe that they are one in the same, lets look at the evidence.

Leigh:
Brings us shiny new post every now and then

Santa:
Brings us shiny new gifts ONCE A YEAR.

Leigh:
Answers questions and sometimes calls out i-d-10-t-s

Santa:
Has naughty list...leaves coal. No way to get off that damn infernal list. (I know, I tried)

So there you have it Sub. Leigh is not Santa. We don't need to get into the phsyical descrptions do we? If your saying that someone when they laugh shakes like a bowl full of jelly....I hope you would be talking about Santa. Cause if not, you could find yourself if a very awkward position.

Kaboom....

Yes Canadian's are very nice people. Canada is the blight. Sorry. Sub ruined it for you. Honestly, peanut butter and hot dogs???

Silvertip....

Lol. Yes my friend I realized what I did a little to late. Maybe if I had some bale....er I mean whiteout.

meal6225....

Playoffs? Playoffs? Are you kidding me? Playoffs?
Ptth! Don't talk to me about playoffs!

ROFLMAO. Man that rant will never get old.
Wilson Grooms
1276. shaned
I dont have time to read through all the comments but has anyone suggested Tuon being one of the ones to link with Rand to use Callandor? It would satisfy the Seanchan prophecy of the dragon bowing to the empress. Also in learning how to channel this could change the view of the empress and by default policy of all the Seanchan in regards to channelers.

The injustiuce of leashing female and killing male channelers should be addressed before the end of the series. I dont see the Seanchan being completely defeated either due to their otherwise positive influence on the general populace and overall strength.

My other theory on this was that in defeating the DO all channelers would somehow be cut off from the source. This, obviously, would stop the enslavement of them as well. I would be dissapointed in this outcome myself but see it as a possibility.
Jane Smyth
1277. Kaboom
Yes Canadian's are very nice people. Canada is the blight. Sorry. Sub ruined it for you. Honestly, peanut butter and hot dogs???

personally I prefer maple sirup pie and beaver tails

(before you go eeeewww, beaver tails are delicious pastries)
john massey
1278. subwoofer
Good morning all!

First off- what is the issue with peanut butter?! The stuff rocks. And it is not uniquely Canadian. There have been reports coming in from the States.

@drewlovs -hmmmmmmmmm! I never made the connection. As in the first books, Rand saw a black cord connecting the Forsaken to the DO. Now it seems as if there is a similar attachment forming for Rand. Albeit through Moridin- it is something that is growing stronger. It is as if Rand is becoming like Aridhol. To beat the Shadow, he is growing harder than the Shadow, ultimately tainting himself, becoming his own evil. What is the point of Rand wining if he becomes a source of darkness himself?

@Schro- yup, gotta tie in Firefly. Just keepin' it real.

@Santa- I never said bad things about you.

@Leigh- I never said bad things about you.

I said "Just like Santa"- implying that Leigh is elusive and is in the status of there being "Leigh sightings" similar to "Santa being seen over the north pole" sightings. When Leigh graces us after a thousand posts, it is special:) and cuts to the point. I had one chance Leigh post at me recently, it was cool;) I did not say anything about any physical resemblances or... ahhhh... I'm diggin' myself a hole here... I heart you Leigh!

@Torie and other Tor Watchers- I think we are hitting critical mass here, load times are starting to get onery. And it would be nice if you added a "back to the top" feature for extremely long posts like this, or generally for all the WoT posts as they go into the hundreds.

Woof™.
Bill Reamy
1279. BillinHI
AndrewB @1231: Your comment on the location of the Crystal Throne kicked off my first Looney Theory (and it's _really_ looney ;): Tarmon Gai'don is over, the DO out of the picture, Rand is alive (again), maybe in Moridin's body, maybe not, For(Tuon)a has returned to Seanchan and Rand Travels there and bows to the throne, acknowledging her (and Mat, of course!) as the ruler(s) of Seanchan.

forkroot @1235: Of course, your take on the (re)location of the Crystal Throne is also certainly possible.
john massey
1280. subwoofer
I know it has been touched on before but I wanted to talk about Rodel Ituralde. It was an early part of tGS but the chapters with "the Little Wolf" shinned for me, and not just because of my proclivity towards any references to furry paws in the series.

Of the five Great Captains that RJ touched on, Rodel was always alluded to but never really been brought to the fore directly, not like Agelmar, Bashere or Bryne. The battle scenes with the Seanchan really gave me respect for the character and it was good to see that Rodel deserved to be a peer in such a distinguished group. Outnumbered, against superior forces-raken and damane- and with limited resources, Rodel stretched the odds and gave the Ever Victorious Army defeat after defeat.

Rodel's last stand in the forgotten stedding was the best part of the book for me. An ordinary man, fighting his last battle, knowing he and his men would all die, and how he dealt with it- last of the tabac.

Rand coming along and his interaction with Rodel increased Rand's Ji in my eyes. I hope that Rand respectfully harnesses the talent around him. Bashere, Rodel, Agelmar, soon to be Byrne, Mat, Rhuarc- if Rand isn't a dink to all of them, he will have good odds of winning the Last Battle.

Woof™.
Tess Laird
1281. thewindrose
So we find out about the secret of the heads of the Ajahs meeting together even when their own ajahs can't talk to each other. About how much they were behind some of the things going on in the Tower and rebel camp. The too young sisters, the continuation of meetings between the two camps.
So two things from the chapter Sealed to the Flame I wanted to bring up.
The room fell silent again. It was true; the Hall had bee in session for hours and had only just gone out for a short recess. No one Ajah wasclose to getting support for one of its cndidates. No Sitters would stand for anyone not of their own Ajah; there was too much animosity between them. Light, but this was a mess.
"Ideally, it should be one of us five," Ferane said. "That makes the most sense."
The five looked at each other, and Jesse could read their answers to that in their eyes. They were the Ajah heads, the most powerful women in the world. Right now, they were balanced in power, and while they trusted each other more than most, there was no way any of them would allow the elevation of another Ajah head to the Amyrlin Seat. It would give the woman far to much power. After the failure of their plan, trust was wearing very thin.
(...)
The Gray looked at each other of them in turn. "You aren't foolish enough to assume this woman will be led by the nose, are you? I won't stand for this if we're simply trying to create a puppet. That plan failed. It failed miserably..
(...)
"Yes" Jesse found herself saying, to her own suprise. "Sisters, if we agree to this, it will end our dream of ruling from the shadows. For better or worse, we'll be setting up an Amyrlin of strength."
Wilson Grooms
1282. MagicDragon
dewlovs@1273
On Perrin it seems only Faile has really been bossy with Perrin about his doing physical labor and not assigning it to someone else. I may be off on the timeline, but as I understood it Faile was busy killing Masema while Perrin was crawling around.
As far as Rand's black cord to the Dark One I don't think it needs to be cut, I belive he did that himself. In an earlier post I referred to the last chapter as a 'rebirth' for Rand. I don't know that holding that much of saidin really could 'heal' him in a way, but gave him the clarity to see what he needed to understand allowing him to regain his humanity. With his humanity intact the connection to the Dark One was severed.
I'm also guessing Rand won't have the problem of being sick when he reaches for saidin. Just a thought but it seems the more Rand lost his humanity the worse it was to touch saidin. I am now thinking it had little to do with the taint and more to do with the internal battle in his mind.

BillinHI@1279
You raise a good point that if For(Tuon)a is exposed as a marath'domane, it will bring a major change to the Seanchan Empire. I am guessing that the former domane Alvin(sp?) will be one of the 2 women linked with Rand using Callendar, if the other were to be Fortuona....Wow. Just curious on how the timeline will work. I can see Rand accepting Seanchan rule as now he has seen they are a force of stability not heartless conquerors. I can't see him kneeling before the crystal thrown and accepting Seanchan rule without concessions reguarding those that can channel. I also don't see those consessions being made unless Fortuona is exposed as able to channel...unless Mat is with Fortuona when Rand meets with her again, perhaps with 2 ta'veren she will be persuaded.
T C
1283. Freelancer
drewlovs@1273

Rand has taken no pledge to the shadow. Yes, he is closer to it than any of us like, but he has no black cord to be severed.


DarthZemus@1274

I think a great many of us were similarly impacted by the scene with Rand and Tam. Exquisitely painful to read. Rand hits rock bottom, closer than ever before (or since) to completely snapping. He stops just short of destroying the man who raised him, just a few short moments after praising that man for doing humanity a great service (pompous idiot, loved Tam's response). Yet he is still very close to the edge (now that song is in my head). He decides that if the Seanchan won't join him, then he'll beat them. And once again he pulls up just short. The only difference there is we all knew he wouldn't do that, there are too many prophecies in the way.


shaned@1276

Mentioned. jrmywvt@718 & Lynd@1016. Extremely unlikely.


thewindrose@1281

Yes, good work there. But I don't beat down the Ajah heads too much myself. I'm presuming that it was upon Elaida's usurpation of the Seat that they first got together and decided to exert their power. Do you think they were trying to run things this way while Siuan was in charge? I rather doubt it. So while they were grabbing and holding power behind the scenes, I give them some slack that they felt it honestly necessary to prevent further chaos. They set in motion (the Sitter plants in both places) a scheme to bring everyone together. They didn't bank on Elaida's extreme idiocy, the internal power of the Black, and a few forsaken taking a hand. So now they have to honestly face the future, and accept that they lose their "power" by permitting an Amyrlin who can truly rule. I'm good with that.


MagicDragon@1282

It's damane. It's Alivia. It's Callandor. It's throne. It's concessions (oh, you got that one right the first time). It's regarding.

You're clearly very sharp and thoughtful, and I ask your forgiveness for seeming to demean, but these proofreader's eyes suffer in a post like that. Spellcheck is your friend.
Wilson Grooms
1284. CBeats
"Tuon" = "ForTuona"


Hahahaha ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh I get it.
Wilson Grooms
1285. shaned
One thing that struck me reading this book is the disconnect between things that happened over a relatively short time in randland and the time span of the series in reality. I dont think Jordan mentioned as often things happening just a short time ago. When the toman head scene from TGH was mentioned as happening recently it took me a minute to get things straight. Maybe its just the the length of time since the last book. It could also be that I was in grade school when I read TGH. Anyone else have this reaction?
T C
1286. Freelancer
shaned@1285

Yes, like a trip through the Ways, or perhaps via Portal Stone, time compression distorts the perception of when events occured in story time.

To sort these things out, might I suggest A Wheel of Time Chronology, where painstaking work has been done to align events in their correct sequence and spacing.
john massey
1287. subwoofer
@shaned, yes, you are not alone in your feelings that time moves differently in WoT. It is almost like Old Bili where we come out with a bag of gold a hundred years later. I had serious misgivings when RJ died that this would become the War of Power and last 80 odd years. Thank you Harriet.

Woof™.
R B
1288. MasterAlThor
Kaboom....

I wasn't going to go eeeeewwwww. I just thought beaver tails would have been something other than pastries. Something more Berelainish.

Sub....

I see. So the Blight has started to infiltrate Pennsylvania. Curse you Aquascum!!!!!! Oh sorry kids watching Nemo.
john massey
1289. subwoofer
@M A T- yes, we are taking over the US one Jim Carey, Keanu, Ryan Renolds etc. at a time. Mwuhahahaha.

Berelainish.

It would be interesting to see the Last Battle being lead by five Great Captains(including Mat)- or maybe six including Rhuarc, each guiding a different leg of the assault on the Blight. Asha'man Travelling back and forth with scouting reports, weapons of power being used on a large scale. Maybe Rand cleansing Saidin was a small taste of things to come. Gives me chills to think of the potential a huge epic battle could be to end this series. OOOOOOOOO- see I can be and "Ooo Ooo" girl too.

Min's viewing of Rand, when Mat or Perrin are around.

The advice Rand needs to laugh and cry.

Woof™.
Darth Agilus
1290. darth.agilus
Sorry if any of this has been covered in the re-reads but I had two thoughts reading this thread tonight.

What happens if Alanna dies? Could that be the Pattern's reason for having Rand bonded by his 3 girlfriends - to help him remain sane enough to finish the job? Odds Alanna gets killed before the LB?

Freelancer @1125

I've thought Rand has a plan for Taim too and that he wants Taim where he can see him. My only problem has been, even knowing where they are what could you do against a large number of channeling DFs short of a pitched battle and then be sure you've got them all? Most plans would leave many of them the opportunity to gate to safety. Sure he could use the CK but at least at the point he began planning for Taim he was unwilling to use that tempting power.

But thinking on what you said, he could have been planning to use his few loyal Asha'man combined with his AS in circles and using Callandor. That should be sufficient to overpower them before more than a few DFs could gate out.

This would explain why Rand was so upset by the bonding of the Reds. When I first read the scene between him and Logain, I thought Rand's reaction was unjustified paranoia and his ego taking control. I believe the people in the room thought so too (Logain, Min, Bashere?).

But if he was planning to use circles and AS to break Taim and he isn't sure if he can trust Logain, then he just lost his advantage. Sure he'ld still have Callandor but he was already potentially outnumbered.

Rand wasn't being a crazy jerk. Logain had just disrupted an important, sensitive, and dangerous plan. At that point Rand is left scrambling to put it right.

It also puts his offer to Egwene allowing her to bond an equal number of Asha'man in a new light. He's not making some minor peace offer. He's not making it only to Egwene (instead of the rebel AS) because he's paranoid and dislikes all AS. He's now in a position where he NEEDS AS help to overcome Taim. And he needs to know he can trust the AS when the time comes.

Disturbing to think how the balance has shifted even more with the Red delegation to the BT. Didn't someone earlier in the thread suggest that was being guided by the BA but not sure why? This would explain it.
T C
1291. Freelancer
Whoa. Only 27 posts today. And I'm sure subwoofer is hanging out just waiting to take 1300.

I was casting about looking for something new to comment upon, and found a small nugget. in Aviendha's first POV of the book, she remembers Rand offering to marry her (Far Snows). Her thoughts now are that she cannot bring him a bridal wreath while she is but an apprentice, cannot honorably offer him marriage until she "knows who she is", and can come to him as something of an equal.

Well, now that she is taking her place as a Wise One, perhaps she will end this unnecessary distancing between herself and Rand. She still needs to settle things with Min, but that too was being addressed at the end of this volume.

Rand's life is going to change much more than he anticipated. Perhaps the Moiraine/Nynaeve or Moiraine/Alivia or Nynaeve/Alivia theorists are right concerning which two ladies aid Rand's use of Callandor. It always seemed more likely to be the channelers he's bonded with and loves, but if they are both pregnant...
R B
1292. MasterAlThor
Subwoofer....

Yes that is very Berelainish. Thank you.
Darth Agilus
1293. darth.agilus
subwoofer @1129

Keanu is Canadian? Can you guys call him back or something please? Its amazing how many of his movies I like considering his acting actually regressed after Bill and Ted's.

Although one of my favorite casting decisions ever was Branagh's decision to use him as Don John in Much Ado About Nothing. I don't know why but it just seemed like using him in a Shakespeare comedy was part of the joke (one which he wasn't aware of). "Like woo, like I'm in a Shakespeare play. Like I'm such a good actor dude."
john massey
1294. subwoofer
I don't know, personally I am abandoning the whole Callandor argument. I think that ship has sailed for Rand. "Just another box" created to chain him to others. He can let whathispickle play with the crystal sword.
"Who draws it out shall follow after."
Narishma has my vote for being the one to use the sword. He is already bonded to one AS, it is a small leap to find another for him. IMHO, Rand's greatest chance was to wield the CK, but because he was scared of so much power, that theory has gone sideways. Perhaps he will find the little fat man holding a sword again. Maybe he'll find that Ring, maybe he'll get a wand like HP...

@M A T- saw that and thought- damn girl! That is Berelain.

Woof™.
john massey
1295. subwoofer
@Free- thanks for the thought but it is no biggie;) I got the first one on what is sure to be TOR's Epic Post. The rest is silence.

Keanu has tri- citizenship, Canadian, US and Lebanese. There is no spoon. And there is always ol' Bill... Shatner, for all the sci-fi folks out there.

Woof™.
Henry Loose
1297. schrodinger
which ties back into red shirted security personnel dying as spear-carriers.
T C
1298. Freelancer
Another new thought, for me.
Why? Rand thught with wonder. because each time we live, we get to love again.
That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remember lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.
Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occured to him. If I live again, then she might as well!
That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong.
I want to do it right this time.

Which is more important? The Wheel itself, or the life of one individual? A question of philosophy, of course, but still. And how does the Wheel turn? Is it not said that opposing forces drive the Wheel? If the Dark One were destroyed, would the Wheel grind to a halt? Is his existence essential for the Pattern to have purpose? To give people reasons to live, to love, to strive, to quest?

It was said long ago by a very wise woman that a victory by the Dragon Reborn if he was not "ready" would prove worse than a defeat.

Callandor could destroy the Dark One. Therefore it was not to be used, and that's why Rand blew it up. The Wheel must turn. The ages must come and pass. The spice must flow.
Wilson Grooms
1299. MagicDragon
Darth.Agilus 1290 & subwoofer 1294
If by CK you are mean the sa'angreal Choedan Kal (and by the context I'm sure you do) Rand destroyed it...not the ter'angreal he carries.
Rand used its own power upon it, crushing the distant globe, shattering it as if in the grip of a giant's hand.
The Choedan Kal exploded.


Freelancer 1298
AHA I saw your typo...that wasn't Callandor he destroyed...hehehe. I know my spelling isn't the best so no hard feelings here.
T C
1300. Freelancer
schrodinger@1297

No, James Tiberius Kirk is from Iowa. T. J. Hooker is from Canada. See the difference?

Keanu Reaves must have studied somewhere outside Canada in order to say "Whoa", instead of "Eh?".


MagicDragon@1299

An error, indeed. Not a typographical one, but yes, I meant the Choedan Kal. You have me.
john massey
1301. subwoofer
Sorry- our agents are everywhere. If you can't beat them, infiltrate and assimilate...

@Puff- correct- but if the biggun' is hosed, the little one is useless too.

@Schrodinger- high five:)


Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1302. MagicDragon
subwoofer 1301
I didn't read your post accurately, thought by little man holding a sword you were talking about finding another ter'angreal to link to CK, thinking CK was intact and the ter'angreal he had went poof. But now I remember the angreal he found in The Stone and lost when kidnapped by Elaida's AS.
john massey
1303. subwoofer
@MD-no worries. I am often cryptic and because I type with slang, sometimes hard to understand:) Yes, in the past, Rand has found security with that little angreal. Perhaps he will rediscover it and find solace in his future.

I just think that Rand will not go down the path of Callandor. The ol' fool me once, fool me twice saying applies here.

There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists"
-Lanfear TSR ch9

This is the path I see Rand go down. If not the little fat man with the sword, then the mysterious sa'angreal which I believe Free refered to as the Ring of Tamyrlin- which I was talking about in the above post.
Elan Morin tells Lews Therin that he once wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion.

Woof™.
Dale schenstrom
1304. Dryheat77
Book of awesome.
Can't wait to finish reading comments before throwing this out there, so sorry if it's already been brought up. The only ones that were shown where the domination band was located were Sorelia and Melaine and we know that the forsaken don't know all are we seeing another dark friend Aiel?
Wilson Grooms
1305. WaterandShade
For those comments on how the DR will know the Amyrlin's anger, after this book I could imagine how the encounter would have went. Egwene bitching Rand out for a good 5 minutes, and Rand in his new sense of well being telling her, "You're lucky. If you would have said this to me last week, I would have killed you."
T C
1306. Freelancer
subwoofer@1303

Not me. I've never believed that the ring was a sa'angreal. In the WoTFAQ, there is an entry which includes a submission from the Glossary of To the Blight, the YA edition of the second half of The Eye of the World:
Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): a legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.

Rumor, myth, legend, but nobody knows with certainty. As for the conversation between Ishamael and Lews Therin:
Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you!"

A symbol, such as the Great Serpent rings worn by this age's Aes Sedai. I don't suspect it of being more.
Patrick Huff
1307. pattack
I still wish I had a copy of The Prophecies of the Dragon....
Jacy Clark
1308. Amalisa
darth.agilus@1290's post made me think of something else...

Myrelle was part of the SAS delegation to the Black Tower. What will happen to Lan if Myrelle dies? They have no emotional attachment, I know, but the Bond is the Bond.

He's got places to go and Shadowspawn to kill. She's also heading into harm's way; in TGS, Egwene was worried that there has been no contact with the delegation since they left. If things go awry for Myrelle, what will Lan do?

Just curious...
Barry T
1309. blindillusion
Hmm...

Ring of Tamyrlin = Way to Summon the Nine Rods of Dominion, who were the rulers of the World's districts.

High Seat = Crystal Throne to cause the Nine Rods to bow before the wearer of the Ring.

One ring to bring them all together, one chair to bind them to his will....

Little too Lord of the Rings?

One Ring to rule them all,
One Ring to find them,
One [Chair] to bring them all
and in the [Hall] bind them

LOL

- Blind
Alice A
1310. Wetlandernw
Brief* Notes on the Cuendillar Bunker

The origins of the bunker may be observed on the TSR #10 forum, beginning with comment #667, when a certain R.Fife constructed a cuendillar bombshelter wherein to hide after a particularly vicious rickroll**. In following days, it became a popular place to hide from the backlash for any commenter making a statement deemed likely to be inflamatory. It remained, of course, the only hiding place after a rickroll, which required R.Fife to remain sequestered there for long periods of time.

In an effort to find a more suitable punishment, he was threatened with a long night in a sweat tent with Faile. This was quickly determined to have the opposite effect as desired, R.Fife being one of the rare Faile fans*** among the group. It did, however plant the seed of a much more effective retribution; some clever soul shanghaied Elaida, stuffed her into the bombshelter, barricaded the door and turned up the steam. Whether this had any particular effect on R.Fife himself was never revealed, but the bombshelter was so thoroughly funked out by this event that extreme measures were needed. A large number of group members turned out to help with the clean-up, but by the time the bunker was defunked, its effectiveness as a place to hide was drastically impacted.+

Due in part to this effect, the bunker has since become primarily a meeting place, where flamewars are doused by the liberal application of a wide variety of pastries, baked goods, assorted snacks and drinks from around the world. Corners are generally reserved for those who feel a need to hide for a few moments after a particularly daring comment.

Some have noted the frequent absences of R.Fife from the comments in recent weeks. There is speculation in some quarters that he is constructing a new cuendillar bunker, possibly disguised with inverted weaves, which he intends to keep more secure. The location of this bunker, if it exists, is a complete mystery. One immediately suspects the Land of the Madmen, but Samadai is known to be familiar with the area and would probably reveal its existence to the group at large. Shara is certainly a possibility, since we have very little insight into its inner workings. It may also be somewhere in Seanchan, where well-placed rickrolls may actually have caused some of the chaos generally attributed to Semirhage's destruction of the Imperial Family.++
Alice A
1311. Wetlandernw
Sorry, folks, I couldn't resist.

*Brief? Who do we think we're kidding? This, from one who has about the same relationship with brevity as Leigh. Hah.

**He had the unmitigated gall to disguise a rickroll as a link to Leigh's promised post regarding JordanCon, for which we were all twitching like crazy.

***This is his greatest redeeming quality, in my opinion, next to his blogs on JordanCon and the Charleston launch party. ;)

+See what I did there? Did ya see it? *chortle chortle* That was my fave.

++Alternatively, he could be one of Demandred's proxies, since he loves to sow chaos with those rickrolls... What do you think? Nah, probably not. Cruel, occasionally, but probably not really a DF. Besides, he knows I've still got the beaver and the taxi. And a badger, if needed. He wouldn't dare.

Okay, anyone who remembers or actually does the research may find some flaws in the "Notes", but it's Saturday night and I didn't feel like doing exhaustive research. The writing was much more fun. ;)
Henry Loose
1312. schrodinger
Is there any better way to spend a saturday night? reading (and occasionally posting) all these comments... while rereading the book... and watching the conclusion to the godfather trilogy. (oh, and snickerdoodles for snacks!) life is so very very good.
Barry T
1315. blindillusion
A double post? Well, I'll have to do something creative to make up for that...though I did get 1313 which makes me happy =)

Quite some time ago I made the claim that Verin is the wild-card for the Light. I'd have to say that claim was realized with the reveal of her 70 year plan.

In that same long ago post I also claimed Fain was the wild-card for the Shadow. I still stand by that claim, though I think Fain will help the Light by using the Shadow's tactics.

I think Fain is either going to take out Slayer or SH.

Why do I think these two characters relate? Well, Verin was of the Light then went to the Shadow with the intent of helping the Light (and to save her life).

Fain was of the Shadow and is now of the Light with the intent of helping...well, himself (and he also had no choice in what happened to him)?

Why do I say he's of the Light? He's more Mordeth now than anything. And Mordeth served the Light though he did so through the use of the Shadow's tactics.

Sure, he wants Rand in a bad way, but who really thinks Fain is going to be the one to take out Rand?

Edit:Egads but that's a rambling mess, isn't it? But I still think Fain is going to help the Light in some way, while thinking he's helping himself.
Wilson Grooms
1316. Laurel4Amyrlin
At the signing today, I asked BrS about Mesaana, and if we'd seen her Aes Sedai a/e on stage yet. His answer was two-part: per RJ, we hadn't seen her on stage prior to KoD, but he wouldn't confirm or deny her appearance since then -- that was RAFO-ed.

He did, however, tell me that she WAS still in the White Tower at the end of TGS. SO. There's a little tidbit of info for you to chew on. I want to hear some theories! :)
T C
1317. Freelancer
@Wetlandernw

She lives! Also, what? That was brief. Well, to some of us anything less than two screens full is brief. And please tell these kind folks to quit foisting upon me your rightful title. I mean seriously, I never did a distribution analysis of peoples' educational stats. ::bows to the guru-ness::

I keep meaning to meet this guy Brevity that everyone claims to be close with. Let me guess, Canadian?

blindillusion@1309

No, the nine Rods of Dominion are not summoned via the ring of Tamyrlin. That was never even suggested. Check Ishamael's words again, no tie-in was made between the two.

blindillusion@1313 & 1315

::stares:: We got it the first time. Any more of that and you're off to Ebou Dar, to share Elaida's damane kennel. Say hi for us.

If Leigh doesn't put up a new reread post Monday, this beast may hit a number that would have some of our older commenters claiming the year of their birth. I hear MasterAlThor wouldn't have to wait much longer.
Barry T
1318. blindillusion
Free@1317

I was joking with my post of the Ring of Tamyrlin summoning the Rods of Dominion. I don't think to assign properties to the objects in the WoT.

Though just because something isn't suggested in cannon does not mean it cannot in fact be true. And it was never suggested by whom?

As for my posts at 1313 and 1315 I find I cannot control when Tor.com doubles my posts. As to the edit I put in at 1315...I intended to put that at 1313. I don't exactly believe in wasting space on this page or people's time with fluff such as, "Ahem, be right back to claim 1313."

But, now I feel I've wasted both in saying that. Perhaps I will go to Ebou Dar. Maybe I can find someone to laugh with.
R B
1319. MasterAlThor
*drumming fingers on desk thinking of mean, terrible, horrible things to do to Freelancer*


Old heh. I got your old right here buddy.

I'll have you know that I am still quite young. My nephews girlfriend said that I looked 25. Thank you very much.

Ahh dammit, I swallowed that hook again didn't I?
Julian Augustus
1320. Alisonwonderland
I loved the book.

That said, there are two things that bug me ... wait, bug me is a tad strong ... one thing that bugs me, and another that I think BrS missed completely and would have added so much to most people's enjoyment of the book.

The thing that bugs me? The cover. I'm fairly sure no one has commented on it yet because I've read every single one of the comments since Leigh first posted. Darryl Sweet must not only be a damn poor illustrator of WoT scenes, but a damn lazy one as well. Rand on the cover of TGS is identical to Rand on the cover of TDR, same pose, even the same clothes!. He took the painting he had of the TDR cover, changed the colors in Rand's outfit and rubbed out Callandor. Voila, he had the new cover for TGS except for the background! Damn, that bugs me.

The other thing that would have improved the book greatly? Been mentioned by Leigh and a few other commenters: the fact that Graendal's nuking and Elaida's capture happened off-screen. Now, BrS was himself a fan of the series. As a former fan, didn't he realize the depth of feeling most fans had against Elaida and what impact her capture on-screen would have had on us fans' enjoyment of the moment? He dreamed up a vivid description of Adelorna's capture and escape. Why oh why didn't he insert a few paragraphs showing Elaida's capture from her own point of view? As it is, the "revelation" of her capture made me feel robbed of an immense amount of satisfaction and no little schadenfreude. What a bummer, I thought.

Graendal's nuking evoked somewhat similar feelings, though not nearly with the same let-down feeling that being robbed of the enjoyment of Elaida's futile scramble to escape and realization that she was about to be collared conveyed.
Alice A
1321. Wetlandernw
Free @1317 I mean seriously, I never did a distribution analysis of peoples' educational stats. 'Sokay. I'm OCD enough for both of us and then some. You just keep the comments going! I'm up to the 900s by now, so I'll actually get with the program some day soon and can post relevant comments on the comments...
Henry Loose
1322. schrodinger
@alisonwonderland 1320

nah... the cover's not the same. in TDR rand's hand is unclenched, in TGS it is... plus his shirt is red in TGS. Huge difference. ;-)
Wilson Grooms
1323. browniesb
Its great reading all these comments—reminds me of the early days on RASFWRJ.

Speaking of the old days, I wasn’t the first to suggest Graendal as Asmos killer, but was one of the early supporters of that conclusion. After 15 years, I can’t give up on the theory just because Graendal appears to have died without admitting guilt—maybe the dark one will disclose what she did or maybe the identity won’t be in the plot at all, but BS will disclose the name of the killer in the final glossary.

What happened to Leanne in the attack on the tower—did I miss something.

It sure seems like the borderlands army is being led astray. If not Dem, could it be one of the other forsaken?

Is anyone else now wondering if Verin was the mysterious Sedai who helped Fain escape at the start of TGH?

Two plot elements that seemed to be dropped are the connection between the horn of Valar and Illian and the visions of Rand as a beggar. I can’t speak to the first, but perhaps Rand visits Ebou Dar as a beggar and has to bow to the DOTM, without submitting as the LD.

I thought it was pretty clear that Messanna was an accepted. Interesting that the two of the smartest AS are blinded to that possibility.
Wilson Grooms
1324. wrightmind
RAND'S VALENTINE WIGGIN MOMENT

Did it strike any of you that the scene with Tam and Rand was reminiscent of a scene from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card? (Harriett edited Ender's Game, by the way). At the request of master manipulator Colonel Graff, Ender's sister, Valentine, comes to him on that lake in North Carolina to remind him why it was worth fighting and saving the world. It works, and Ender resumes his training. He still hates Colonel Graff for what he did, for how he used his sister to manipulate him, but it worked.

Also, wasn't there a passage in Harry Potter when Dumbledore told him that WHY he fought was more important than being caught up in prophecy? Again, a moment similar to Tam coming to Rand.

By the way, I LOVED the book.
T C
1325. Freelancer
browniesb@1323

And what leads you to the idea that Mesaana is an Accepted? Not the white dress, I hope, because it was a plain white dress, which would sooner indicate a Novice. As it is, I still trust Graendal's POV that her agents keep her apprised of Mesaana's activities, and that she is pretending to be a sister. I still say Danelle.


wrightmind@1324

Hmm, maybe a little, except that instead of squashing a bug, Rand nearly squashed Tam. I don't remember Ender coming close to drowning Val. It's always possible to find parallels in these sorts of stories, where you have the loner hero carrying the fate of everything on his shoulders.
Rob Munnelly
1326. RobMRobM
Random comments from the re-read I've done over past day:

- no one has pointed out (I think) that in the Mat-Aludra chapter when they are talking about building dragons and the associated costs, Mat says that to get money like that he'd have to be dicing with the Queen of Andor. Just...a little bit of foreshadowing about some of what Elayne will be doing in ToM. She can put her two admins on the task of pulling together resources to build the big bombs. (The other thing she'll do is hang out with Setalle and either find or make ter'greals.)

- really liked Suana's discussion with Egwene about what it means to be of the Yellow Ajah. The Ajah of passion - that's a fair description that explains why Nyn fits there.

- In the Stone of Tear, Min sees a black knife around Beldeine's head. Sounds like she's going to have an upcoming "meeting" with Fain-in-the-butt. [Edit: I originally mis-wrote "sword"]

- I hadn't agreed with this in initial time through but now I do - the assassins left the Tar Valon are going to cause trouble. Their job is to stay behind and kill as many AS as possible. Only one died on-screen, there are four left, and all is unicorns and sweet clover in TV after Egwene ascension. A couple AS will bite the dust before the assassins are eradicated. Perhaps a new PoV candidate for ToM - an assassin sneaking around the castle. How about Gawyn taking on one of these guys/gals with ter'greal enhanced speed and quickness in order to save Eg?

Rob
Rob Munnelly
1327. RobMRobM
@1320. My concern with Elaida's offscreen departure is that it may signify additional on-screen time in ToM, such as teaching travelling (only certain sisters can, and only 25 were potentially taken, so she might be the only one) or involved in some type of bizarre ranting bit before the Empress. I have no interest in seeing it, but I fear there is more Elaida to come.

Rob
Wilson Grooms
1328. HateCaddy
It's hard not to be disappointed. I was really hoping someone would finally kill that disgusting POS Cadsuane. Either Semi or Rand should have lanced that festering pustule. She is absolutely the worst damn character in the whole series. What was RJ thinking?
Rob Munnelly
1329. RobMRobM
@1328 - I'm not at your level of hate but wouldn't it be funny if the important, world changing, lesson that Cad was supposed to teach Rand and the Asha'man (per Min's vision) was to never trust an Aes Sedai? R
Jason Woodford
1330. jasonreid
Haven't been able to read all the posts, but first a question and then some comments.

Some were talking earlier about the "Nine Rods of Dominion" And the Ishy comment that LTT once summoned them in the prologue of TEOTW.

I'm slightly confused by the WOTFAQ entry on the subject, so can someone with more WOTmojo than me explain in plain English if the White Tower Oath Rod (inscribed with the AOL numeral for three) is one of the 9RoD???


As for TGS, overall, I was very impressed with the book. After waiting so long, it didn’t disappoint. A few quibbles, but they all seem to have already been mentioned, so I’ll leave them alone.

On the plus side, I’m puzzled by the negative or horrified reaction to Rand’s destruction of Graendal’s Fortress of Solitude by balefire, and how the positive/negative reaction is splitting down male/female lines. Even compared to all the other moments of Rand awesomeness in the series, this to me is the single most epic stand-out Rand scene in the entire WOT history so far.

It shows his dilemma as the General for the Light and the burden of destruction he must bear for all who fight in the light – he has to make the hardest, most awful decisions any good man could ever be forced to make – knowing he’ll be reviled even though it was the right move to make. It shows he IS becoming the great general he needs to be for the coming battle, using LTT and not rejecting him even before fully integrating himself with the past life memories, and not just a trumped up farmboy relying on Bashere, Rhuarc and others to win for him. And lastly, even knowing what was likely to happen long before getting to the specific page in the chapter, it was great writing that ramped up the tension to breaking point and then delivered a shocking smack in the face to the reader.

Though I think Rand got the best scene, I agree with all who say Egwene got the best story-arc. This is now equal in my mind with Moiraine’s arc leading to her “death” in Cairhein as the best book specific character arc.

But the biggest thing about this book for me is that I think Mr Sanderson gave us all the final clues on what Rand has to do not just to defeat the DO in the Last Battle, but destroy him utterly. I’ll lay my idea out for you all to rip to shreads.

Firstly, remember back in the early books, well before Asmo taught Rand to control Saidin, his subconscious need would trigger use of the power – like the original flight from the Two Rivers where he made Bela keep up of Egwene wouldn’t be left to the Drakhar. Other instances like with the supergirls in the Stone of Tear also come to mind where he couldn’t control or didn’t understand what he was doing.

I submit that in Chapter15, “A Place to Begin” we get Rand’s first subconscious use of the True Power, confirmed by Moridin asking LTT why he has come here? The next thread picked up is LTT’s crazy rantings about breaking the seals back from the time we first met Taim. In Chapter 22, “The Last that Could Be Done” Sanderson hides a lot of clues in plain sight by making the confrontation with Semirhage the climactic focus. But earlier in the chapter he drops the two big hints – LTT agrees with Min that they need to break the seals on the DO’s prison and finally explains why;

“Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn’t work, Lews Therin whispered. We used Saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

So we know sealing the bore with only Saidin didn’t work, and two pages later Rand is speculating if it’s simply a matter of using both Saidir and Saidin to do the job right the second time right before we have the confrontation with Semi and he consciously embraces the True Power for the first time.

Moving on to Chapter 48, “Reading the Commentary”, we get the conversation about Callandor and “Three Becoming One”, with Cadsuane’s research showing that Callandor can only be used properly in a circle of three.

This may be true, but because Callandor was created after The DO’s prison was opened, I think it has a further meaning; that the three powers – Saidir, Saidin and the DO’s own True Power must all be channelled in that circle of three – Alivia the female half of the source; Logain the male half and Rand with the TP, allowing Rand to “touch him, something to close the gap” Using the DO’s own power ensures he can’t taint it – it’s already tainted, and should make the seal strong. Lastly, in Chapter 50, “Veins of Gold” Rand channels the male half of the source he’s drawing from the Choeden Kal through the access key back into the CK, causing it’s destruction (some sort of feedback loop effect?).

So if Rand is using the TP to touch the DO when he seals the Bore this time, and the DO tries to counterstrike, wouldn’t he then be lashing out against himself, causing his own destruction???

I’ll be interested in people pointing out the holes in my logic that I’ve undoubtedly missed here…
john massey
1331. subwoofer
@Free- forgetaboutit- the guru label is sticking now! So, what you say is valid, but it is speculation that the Ring is just symbolic. By that same token, it could have serious juju. I am leaning towards this because of the power in the Dreamer's ring. Just from a writing standpoint, I feel that may be hinting a bigger things to come for rings. And the obvious tip of the hat to Tolkien.

Ultimately I feel that Callandor is a lost cause in terms of Rand wielding it. Unless some radical reform happens in his personality, Rand is not trusting anybody to link with now. IIRC- and I'm known to be wayyyy off on this stuff, Rand is even skeptical of Ny now and her motivations. I remember some Dune-like whispering about Ny becoming true AS. I just don't see Rand skipping through the flowers with any AS in the next little bit. Maybe Avi, but that is pushing it, especially after the gulf that sprang up in TGS with Rand and anybody female.

@Rand- suck it up buddy, you are the savior of- RANDland.

For this book I am also noting the back seat presence given to the Maidens and Aiel in general. It is disappointing to me to see the Aiel essentially written out. After being a major part of the unification of the Westland, the Aiel seem to be relegated to a minor role in the writing aside from Avi's WO scenes. They seem... less awesome now. I am hoping that this is an aberration and BS picks them back up in the next book.

I hate to drag R.Fife's girl through the mud here but the only damaging effect Elaida could have is teaching the Seanchan to Travel. I see the growing trend in this series that if the woman is a douche, she gets her magic powers controlled by somebody else as the net result of the loss of her freedom.

***@Wet- you realize, according to M A T's theory, that you are now bordering on the Blight;) I hear sardines are know to ward of us Blight born. I can see an army of Shienarans with tins O' fish and can openers at TG waiting for the masses to descend on them.

Woof™.
Jane Smyth
1332. Kaboom
RobMRobM

- In the Stone of Tear, Min sees a black knife around Beldeine's head. Sounds like she's going to have an upcoming "meeting" with Fain-in-the-butt.

I saw this as meaning a "meeting" with the Seanchan assassins.

the assassins left the Tar Valon are going to cause trouble. Their job is to stay behind and kill as many AS as possible. Only one died on-screen, there are four left, and all is unicorns and sweet clover in TV after Egwene ascension. A couple AS will bite the dust before the assassins are eradicated.

Crazy theory time. The assassins will kill Egewene's new keeper, while Beldeine almost dies in trying to stop it. Then Beldeine will become Egewene's keeper as seen in her accepted test.

I used to strongly believe that Beldeine would be the keeper because of this test. But now that Egewene has taken the 3 oaths (a significant difference from the test scenario), I'm not so sure.
But I do agree with RobM. There is more damage coming to the Tower from that attack.
Michael Catapano
1333. hoping
I just noticed that The Gathering Storm made number one on the NY Times Bestseller list, and others as well
Bill Reamy
1334. BillinHI
MagicDragon @1282: As many good points as the Seanchan have (and they definitely have some), something has to be done at some point about damane and dacovale.
Darth Agilus
1335. darth.agilus
@1299 MagicDragon - yes that is what I was referring to but not sure how that matters. My theory concerns an event and Rand's reasoning from a prior book where the CK was still whole. My comment was based on a changing perspective due to posts on this thread.

@1305 WaterandShade - LOL - I like it. I agree with some other comments that Eggs will yell at Rand over a treaty he reaches with Tuon that allows her to keep their current territory (and maybe AP and AD) and their collared AS.

Also just 'cause it says Rand will kneel before the Crystal Throne doesn't necessarily mean he's going to swear fealty or anything. I can certainly see a newly grounded Rand having to eat a little crow by going to Tuon and showing some respect to get the treaty he needs. There's also another good suggestion about the CT being an angreal and Rand needing to kneel in front of it to activate it or some such. That works with the phrasing knneling "before" as opposed to kneeling "to". Also if he were going to offer Tuon "Justice" as some have suggested, a kneeling position would be likely.
Julian Augustus
1336. Alisonwonderland
Schro @ 1322
nah... the cover's not the same. in TDR rand's hand is unclenched, in TGS it is... plus his shirt is red in TGS. Huge difference

Well, so the colors in the shirt are different, big deal. Tell you what, put TDR and TGS together and tell me it isn't the same Rand in the same outfit (colored differently). Why did he have to that? In all of the scenes in which Rand appeared in TGS, he couldn't have painted something different from a recycled cover from many books ago?
Darth Agilus
1337. darth.agilus
Alisonwonderland @1336 - I believe Schrodinger was being sarcastic based on the informal language, hyperbole, and wink ;-)
Ambrose Scalvini
1338. MagicDragon
BillinHI 1334
I don't know Rand will care about dacovale, they are slaves but some are still able to gain positions of power. Some have become dacovale for crimes that Rand would have just hung them for committing, the Seanchan instead basically give them a life sentence of labor.
I agree about the damane, as I mentioned in my post the Seanchan would have to change on that point. At the very least stop leashing AS, perhaps Rand will get them to release the AS that have been captured since their arrival. I wouldn't be surprised if Rand got them to stop killing males that can channel. As for those that are Seanchan leashed from when they could first start to channel, not all accept their freedom as readily as Alivia did. Many fear their ability and belive they mush be leashed, while the AS may want damane release I think even they see there isn't time to help them over come that fear before the last battle.
I had read at one time that RJ had planned to do 2 more books that preceed the series simular to A New Spring. Also 3 books that are post last battle. My guess is that it would be there he planned to show the world on the path back to a time of peace before Lanfear let the DO out. Maybe there he had planned showing the Seanchan ending their practice of leashing. Just a guess.
Henry Loose
1339. schrodinger
@1337 darth.agilus

thanks for pointing that out... I was about to respond to alisonwonderland's post when I noticed yours below it. Yes I was being sarcastic, so I was actually agreeing with the idea that it was a recycled cover.
Dave Anderson
1340. Darth_Hegrekarde
Ok, this will be my first post since beginning my re-read back in February.

I started back at the beginning then, then caught up in the TSR re-read. At that point, I was left with a choice: wait the couple-few days between Leigh's posts, or dust off my library and fully finish the series myself.

I waited throught the first gap between Leigh's posts, then gave in. I plowed through the series on my own.

I've been following WoT since TGH, & can't manage to break my OCD pattern of reading the entire series prior to a new installments release.

Leigh, thumbs up! I am thoroughly enjoying your witty, clever approach to this project!

My reactions:

Faile v Prophet -> yup. Solid reasons, but can't get behind the whole "Wife has superiority in scheme-y, so hiding things is how it is. I think Faile is a very good sub-prime char for the arc (WoT overall), but get my own *headbook* reactions from her on a regular basis.

Rand / Semirhage / Min into TP wield. THAT was my moment of schizoid reaction.

Can't mention that w/o the Rand / Tam reunion. I had true FEAR Badness Was Énsuing. Surprised the book cover didn't take damage, my grip was merciless.

No Moiraine this book. Yeah, fits. Excited to read the chapters preceding that moment ( which better be in ToM), and the moment Rand sees her!

No Elayne *grumbles about no Mat in a previous book, no Perrin in another, thinks deja vu is despicable*

Nyn -> such kudos. Not pure, but her flaws are part of my enjoyment of her character. Divided loyalties, leading... Don't wanna think about it. I don't like to try to predict where a story is leading me. Fun to read others' speculation, but I likes me some suspense & surprises 'tween bindings!

Gawyn -> more internal strife. Younglings / Bryne / Elayne / Egwene (/ Hammas / Morgase). Oh, and (/ Galad / Rand). Poor scrapper.

Siuan -> thought the bonding scene was written as a "Dammit! Forgot that was happening now," and deserved more... well, more. The proposed proposal, didn't quite think that would pan out that way, but makes sense to me.

Verin... Yeah. Rather, HELL YEAH. Had my own BA suspicions, but couldn't quite not like her. Restored a bit of the good/evil balance for me in the overall scope of the tome.

Tuon -> not quite sure with this one yet. Mat, and Perrin moreso have been in my top 5 characters from the start, never sliding. Somewhere the heebie-jeebies get a little motivated when she's on stage.

Avi -> has been stealthily working higher and higher on my favs list. This book confirmed it, denial broken.

Rand meets Hurin -> *headbook*. I will be special angry if there aren't some kind of amends.

Eg -> such awesomeness! She exudes Amyrlin-itude, and I'm kinda nervous about the next run-in with Rand will go. Puppy love, years building (yes, they both have seperate adult love interests, but that's a significant bond)... Amyrlin, responsible for an entire continent, maintaining Light, meets Rand / Lews Therin / Moridin.

Min -> I feel a kind of "older brother" protectiveness towards her. At the end of the book, I wanted to call her and re-assure her things will be okay...

Sanderson / Jordan -> no complaints here!

@ 62 zeal -> 'xaktly (re: Mat) [& 65 Pete P]

too many reviews to go thru them all to even begin responding...

Question, though... What's "Woof™" about? Don't mean to be prying, however curiosity has me going....
Wilson Grooms
1341. Tektonica
I finally, finally finished the book today. ( It' been a busy time!) Plus, I didn't want it to end....just savoring a bit of a treat each day! I'll write something coherent about a few passages at a later date, but I just wanted to say Bravo!

I thought the writing was superb, the differences in style slight and not distracting, and I enjoyed the pace.....less superfluous detail, while still providing color and sense of place.....more insight into the characters thoughts and more emotion. I thought the characters were pretty seamless all in all. Tension and foreshadowing was certainly palpable with excitement to spare. There were many really big scenes and they were very well done. Thank you Brandon, Harriet, et al.

Egwene's arc was wonderful. Verin, superb...bad in the very best way! And it was great to back in Rand's nutty head. Knowing his thought processes made him multi- dimensional and far more interesting. Who could blame him for nearly cracking!

And now we have foreshadowing of resolutions of Seanchan, aes sedai, how to win the last battle, etc. ooooh....why do we have to wait a year!!

More later.....
john massey
1342. subwoofer
Answer- "Woof™. " is my dog. She sits at my feet when I post and she puts in her two cents. While she sometimes doesn't agree with me, she still has her right to speak too.

Woof™.
Jacy Clark
1343. Amalisa
jasonreid@1330

Yeah, that confused me, too... and I wonder if a little retcon might come into play. The Guide refers to the "Nine Rods of Dominion" as the nine regional governors. But the number on the Oath Rod (and the one that the Shaido Wise Ones have) is a little too coincidental. So I'm thinking that, as a symbol of their office, each of the regional governors in the Age of Legends carried a Rod of Dominion.


kaboom@1332 and RobMRobM@1326

From "The Death of Tuon"...

...These five were Bloodknives. The pure black stone ring each one wore was a specialized ter'angreal that would grant them strength and speed, and would shroud them in darkness, allowing them to blend into shadows.

The incredible abilities came at a cost, however, for the rings leeched life from their hosts, killng them in a matter of days. Removing the ring would slow that process slightly, but once activated - done by touching a drop of one's own blood to the stone ring while wearing it - the process was irreversible.


Beldeine would have to get back to the Tower quick, fast and in a hurry - isn't she still with Rand? I'm guessing that, prior to the raid itself, each of those assassins applied a drop of their own blood to the ring - otherwise, like, what would be the point of going on a raid that would require them to have great strength, speed and ability to blend into shadows. Unless they got dropped off into the city... I dunno. We'll see. I agree that there would be a great opportunity for fast drama and heroics (not to mention, maybe, eliminating anyone else annoying - Lelaine comes to mind for some reason) if the other four are still skulking about. But if they are actually in the Tower, they'll almost certainly need to have their Power Rings activated, so the clock is ticking...

RobMRobM@1327

I agree. We haven't seen the last of Elaida. And remember Ronde Macura? The woman from Amadicia who tried to capture Elayne and Nynaeve on Elaida's orders. Currently in Tuon/Fortuona's service, and hating Elaida with a passion for having her strapped in front of her own village for her failure to do so. Surely to goodness, they'll meet up at some point!

Edit for spelling
Sara H
1344. LadyBelaine
Alisonwonderland@1312
"The thing that bugs me? The cover. I'm fairly sure no one has commented on it yet because I've read every single one of the comments since Leigh first posted. Darryl Sweet must not only be a damn poor illustrator of WoT scenes, but a damn lazy one as well. Rand on the cover of TGS is identical to Rand on the cover of TDR, same pose, even the same clothes!. He took the painting he had of the TDR cover, changed the colors in Rand's outfit and rubbed out Callandor. Voila, he had the new cover for TGS except for the background! Damn, that bugs me."

Well, this is easily the worst WOT cover - when in this supposed to have occured?

That's Aveindha, although now wearing this season's new line of Aiel bulky skirts and loose white blouses - hers is cut in a daring vee-line! Plus, I guess that "charmingly" gabled and curlicued house behind them is - aside from architecturally unlikely - supposed to be the manor we first saw them in in the beginning of the book, which is in Arad Doman.

But you know it's a *new* picture because Rand HAS ONLY ONE HAND.

Other than that, the picture depicts nothing of use. Who are those troops? Domani? Seanchan? The oddly human trollocs from tGH? The warped ones in the same armor from tSR? Have they crossed realities and Rand is about to be attacked by the Monghol horde?

Gawd, that cover sucks hard.
Sara H
1345. LadyBelaine
I also think we haven't seen the very, very last of Elaida, since the next book seems to be Seanchan-centric (The Towers of Midnight are the Seanchan equivalent of the Tower of London, right? Maybe the Kremlin?)

I agree with all those who say that *something* will have to be done about the Seanchan habit of chattel slavery - Don't be surprised if Elaida manages to make her sul'dam's life a living hell and makes another appearance...
Rob Munnelly
1346. RobMRobM
quick responses to recent posts.
- Beldeine is too far away to matter re the assassins.
- Good catch re possible Elaida/Marcura fireworks.
- Troops on cover are Saldaen.
- re Rand kneeling, the K Cycle says he'll bind the 9 moons to him - so unlikely they'll be kneeling until the Seanchan version proves to be the correct version rather than the corrupted one.

Rob
Wilson Grooms
1347. AndrewB
@1287 (and possibly others)

I went to BsR's book signing on 11/6 (in West Chester, PA [or Philly, for anybody who does not live in the Delaware Valley vacinity]). While BsR was signing my book, I asked him if Randland has a 24 hr day. BsR confirmed that Randland does have a 24 hr day.

I had not previously seen any confirmation in the books or FAQs that Randland had a 24 hr day.

Thought everybody might want to know this inconsequential tidbit.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Wilson Grooms
1348. KevinD
@1344- The Cover is when Rand is screaming at the sky after the Bubble of Evil that causes the house to catch fire, which Aviendha puts out with help from the Asha'man. You can tell based on the giant charred hole in the front of the house... the soldiers are the saldaens.
Wilson Grooms
1349. Tinaaa
Well, hello there.

I have spent the last six months or so quietly skulking around the edges of this site, and have finally plucked up the courage to make my mark.

First...

Got my copy of tGS a week ago, read it in a few days, and then ploughed through all... 1349 posts. Holy smoke people, I'm more than a little impressed!

Quite simply, loved the book. Wasn't too bothered by the different voice - RJ vs BS - as I quickly lost myself back in Randland.

Missing Moraine and want to see Rand and Galad meet. Roll on ToM!

Also hoped to see a little more from Loial, can imagine him and Rand (using the Voice and LTT's memories) using the *greal that Avi and Elayne identified as 'for growing holes' to make a new series of Ways without the black wind.





And...





Who killed Asmo?
T C
1350. Freelancer
Ahh, I finally found it. After suffering through dozens, if not hundreds, of "Don't know if this has been brought up, because I'm not reading the comments..." comments, I had to go back and find the recarts TAN-aholic article. Just to even things out a bit.


I don't get anyone complaining about the cover. You've gotten to volume 12, and known what to expect of the covers for nearly two decades now. It didn't cause you to stop reading before, you won't stop now. And if you think it's bad in hardback, wait until you've seen a large poster-sized version. I can only say that on release day, an even worse cover was on display next to it in the local bookseller's window, so there's that.
Helen Peters
1351. Helen
I've read comments 833 to 1075 this evening, it's now bed time. But before I go I need to say.....

Up there @ 970, regarding AS don't wear white dresses. Yes they do, we've seen several wearing white. Mainly, I think, white ajah AS, but we've definitely seen white wearing AS. I'll take note of them if I come across tham this read round.

Also Various @ various
How the BA AS got warned to escape from the tower. If they were warned via TAR as some posters have supposed, when did this warning happen? I thought Eg slaughtered all her BA AS in the morning, then took over the tower in the afternoon, same day. If the BA can get a note round to all the sisters telling them to go to sleep coz Messy has a message for them, why didn't the note just say RUN, NOW! If the FS weren't so thick in this book I'd say there was a contingency plan along the lines of 'if you see green and yellow spotted knickers run up the flag pole...RUN NOW!'

Night all.
Jacy Clark
1352. Amalisa
Freelancer@1350

*lol*

Reminds me of the old days at wheeloftime.org!

And there is no successful 12-step program!
craig thrift
1353. gagecreedlives
Loony theory time. I think Rand will form a circle with 2 women to wield callandor to use against Moridin and his 2 mind trapped lackeys (true power circle vs saidar/saidin) but I think the actual last battle will happen after he breaks the seals the dark one tries to break free and destroy the pattern but our 3 ta'veren heroes will be there as a centerpoint for the pattern to hold together and slowly but surely they will manipulate the pattern to reseal the darkone inside his prison.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Also did anyone else think it weird how abrasive Aludra seemed to be when Mat was talking to her? And when did she acquire Egeanin and Domon as bodyguards. Wonder if it has something to do with Mat now being Seanchan royalty.
Wilson Grooms
1354. HateCaddy
Things that are somewhat good:

The sheer amount of plot stuff that gets resolved. Good riddance to so much awful rubbish.

Masema, Sheriam, too young sitters, blah blah...yadda yadda.

Rand - Pretty good with the POV. I think that the character goes through so much turmoil and personality drift that it was difficult to detect where RJ left off and BS took over. NP

Nynaeve - Not bad. I've never liked her, but a reasonable effort by BS.

Perrin - He's in a transition stage. POV was decent and didn't really feel off by much.

Avi - I've always liked Avi and BS did right by her. Actually, I think I like her even more now. Good stuff.

Thom - Not bad. I'm glad that BS has a decent handle on this one. The Mo rescue won't be totally screwed with at least one character acting somewhat true to form.

The bad stuff:

Cadsuane - This has nothing to do with BS. RJ invented this horror and he owns it.

Tuon - Not even close. I know Tuon. I love Tuon and that scene with Beslan was an abomination. I don't believe for a moment that Tuon would have ever acted that way. If RJ wrote that scene and I'm wrong so be it, but it absolutely felt off in the biggest of ways.

Mat - Nope. I literally cringed when I read his POV. That was certainly not Mat.

Eggy - Damn. So much hit and miss with this one. I started out the series disliking her and I warmed up to her gradually along the way. Unfortunately, this was a huge disappointment to me. I can't fault BS for this. She is a complex character to try and depict correctly. RJ is the only one that can get this right. Oh well, nothing to be done about it really.

I don't care enough about the rest of the cast to bother with. Siuan, Bryne, Gawyn,..etc.

Other stuff:

I wanted more Semi scenes. She was so deliciously evil, so horribly vile. I loved that Chosen witch. *pant* *pant* *sigh*

I really wish that she'd had the opportunity to grab Caddy and obliterate her in the most painful way possible. Damn BS, what a wasted opportunity.

---------------------------------

Best scene in the novel, bar none.

"Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."


I felt it deeply and it was revelatory. BS got this one sooo right. He absolutely nailed it!

---------------------------------

Egwene, oh Eggy. What a wonderfully developed character up to this point in the series. Too bad she was portrayed as a caricature of her genuine self in this book. Please BS, work on this one with a determined focus going forward. I beg ya man.

----------------------------------

My worst fear in advance is Moiraine Damodred. My favorite character ever. When I read the scene with Lanfear on the docks in tFoH all those years ago I choked up and my vision blurred. When Rand read her letter in that shack I simply put the book down, got to my feet and just walked away. I don't recall how long it took me to regain my composure, but I was devastated. Can BS bring her back to life with any authenticity? I don't know, but based on this book I'm inclined to doubt it.

At this point I really just want the series to end. I certainly don't need any prequels or outriggers. They don't seem necessary to me.
Ambrose Scalvini
1355. MagicDragon
Freelancer 1350
TAN-aholic ROFL
On some of his thoughts...Verin being BA, a couple times I had suspected, but decided no she wasn't. I was shocked when Verin was like that's a lovely green dress.
Shadar Haran being Ish...I thought so too, I was surprised when Rand recognized Moridin as Ish.
Padan Fain killed Asmodean...I suppose he could have, though since getting the dagger he isn't really a darkfriend anymore. As such he doesn't take order so where is his motivation? There is a guy that seems to be able to enter and leave the dream world at will without use of the One Power, I'm not sure he was ever named but he is who I think killed Asmo. Would have been easy for him to get in and out undetected.
Leslie Annis
1356. Lannis
Holy Crappit! Only 1356?! Folks, we've got to pick up the pace, or Leigh's going to call us slackers again...

Re: Canadians... I lived in the same university residence as Rachel McAdams (rode the elevator with her every Wednesday) and she was lovely, sweet, and extremely nice... and a very talented Canadian!

Um... back to the Leigh stuff... when can we expect the next post? Has it been a month yet? Starting to twitch!

Yeah, I've got nothing productive to add... big Sunday evening wave, folks! ::waves::


*twitch*
Henry Loose
1357. schrodinger
@1354 hatecaddy

"Tuon - Not even close. I know Tuon. I love Tuon and that scene with Beslan was an abomination. I don't believe for a moment that Tuon would have ever acted that way. If RJ wrote that scene and I'm wrong so be it, but it absolutely felt off in the biggest of ways."

I thought this too, but then I got thinking about it, and Tuon herself describes it best in KoD: "A lion stuffed into a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something completely different"

She was out of her element so to speak when she was kidnapped by Mat, so now we are seeing the real her... or, as I hope, she's just different being away from Mat, and dealing with her new situation, same as Mat. Hopefully when they get back together they will be back to normal.
Patrick Huff
1358. pattack
That's like saying the box that delicious pizza you just devoured in record time, was ugly.

Better that way than a turd wrapped in gold....

On another note, does anyone have an accurate location of either Shadar Logath or better yet, the Tower of Jengai? While reading the flight down the river in TEOTW, I couldn't tell how far northeast of Baerlon either are.
Wilson Grooms
1359. think before you spake
@ 1330 jasonreid and @1343 Amalisa
sorry to put a pin to your balloon,
the quotation below was taken from: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.03_oath-rod.html

(The first result of a Google search query: "nine rods of dominion the oath rod" without quotes)

The OR is NOT a "Rod of Dominion." The way the Nine Rods of Dominion were mentioned in the TEOTW Prologue, they were something special. The OR, OTOH, is referred to as a "binder," lower case. Nothing special. Furthermore, in TPOD, we find out what Sammael meant by "the number" in [ACOS: 40, Spears, 630-631]-- the Oath Rods are numbered. The Tower's Rod is number three, while Sevanna's Rod is number one hundred and eleven [TPOD: 11, Questions and an Oath, 253]. So, it seems like there are way more than nine Oath Rods.
john massey
1360. subwoofer
Are we talking about Slayer here? Aka Isam/Luc? The big merge? The guy that can bugger around in the Tower of Ghenjei? I was thinking about that... Mat is going and Thom is going and maybe Noal... It is too bad that Mat doesn not know about Birgitte and her experience in the dream world, because she would be a shoe in for the trip.I think it is Perrin's destiny to deal with Slayer.

Noel has the potential for being left behind, as he is theoretically Jain. If the Tower is a gateway to other lands how could Farstrider resist? Mat also has the key to the whole business locked away in his head. If he has the memories of all the people who have visited the Tower, then he should be able to recall all their dealings and piece together how to actually win and get out. Maybe Mat could use the 'Finn's gifts against them.
“Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.
Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.
What was asked is given. The price is paid.”


Speaking of Birgitte, it is a pity we do not get much perspective from that end of the world. It would be nice to wrap up the Trakand saga. Morgase is alive, Gawyn you donkey, and so is your sister. I do believe something of that was mentioned in the story, so why, if Gawyn is so duty bound, is he still doing laps in Tar Valon when he is the First Prince of the Sword and has duty elsewhere? Could it be a certain Eggy that he is making calf eyes at? Grrrrrrrrrrr(that was all my namesake).

@Pat- here is about as close as I get to figuring out the location. Mat is slowly winding his way towards it. I am thinking that he may have an encounter with his Da in TR before he gets there. Logistically it should happen, Mat needs to see his family.

Woof™.
Noneo Yourbusiness
1361. Longtimefan
Loony theory time.

Elaida (now Suffa) has been taken in a raid authorized by the Empress Fortuna could it be that she would be a gift to the Empress?

She has the Fortelling, she knows the weave for traveling, she was once Amyrlin, she is a very strong channeler. All things that would make her a desirable court damane for the Empress.

Even odder, loonier theory, Elaida will realize the full scope of her failing and repent becoming the damane that works with Fortuna to change her mind about collaring channeling people. A tiny redemption but probably not possible.
Alice A
1362. Wetlandernw
A couple of notes:

1330 jasonreid - No, the Oath Rods and the Rods of Dominion are NOT the same thing. Completely different objects. Per RJ's blog, the Rods of Dominion were symbols of office; elsewhere it is indicated that the "office" symbolized were the nine regional governors of the planet. The Oath Rods were recognized by the Forsaken as the rods used to bind criminals during the AOL. For example, Semi was given the choice to be stilled or to be bound by an Oath Rod that she would no longer extract her "little extra" from her patients; that was when she decided to go over to the Shadow. In addition, note that the Oath Rod in the WT has the number 3 inscribed on it; the matching Oath Rod Therava holds is inscribed with the number 111. {Edit: I see several others already addressed this. Oh well.}

BTW, I'm a little puzzled on your comments about Graendal's BFing. You're saying the commenters are split along male/female lines on whether it was a good thing? Evidence? Also, not sure how "BFing Graendal" and "using LTT" are related... or did your argument morph from the use of balefire to Rand's character development? 'Cause I don't think LTT was exactly urging him to wave balefire all over the place.

subwoofer @1331, I was noticing that proximity. I was thinking more that y'all are the borderlanders, and the Blight is more like the Territories. JMO. Not that I wouldn't be proud to be a borderlander, but you are a strong bunch up there and make great defenders. Thanks! (I like Canada. Lots.)

MagicDragon@1355 - I'm guessing you're thinking of Slayer, the meld of Luc and Isam. It's possible but not probable that he killed Asmodean. Take a look at the WoTFAQ for a big herky analysis of the mystery.
john massey
1363. subwoofer
***Oh yeah! Thanks Lanis for reminding me. For all those who speak of us ol' Canuckle heads living in the blight, let us not forget that a certain Firefly Captain was born in my home city...

*** And for the ultra geek Wolverine is also Canadian. :P

@Wet- see? That is what I said... but then thought about it and suggested that Europe is Randland and maybe some Eastern Block countries would be Blight like. That way Santa stays happy with me if Russia turns out to be the big bad land...

...Although I still like my OTHER idea about fending off the Hordes of Trollocs with cans of sardines...

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1364. HateCaddy
1357@schrodinger

"She was out of her element so to speak when she was kidnapped by Mat, so now we are seeing the real her... or, as I hope, she's just different being away from Mat, and dealing with her new situation, same as Mat. Hopefully when they get back together they will be back to normal."


Not buying this argument. The real Tuon was on display from before she made landfall in Randland. She was herself throughout her captivity with Mat and when she returned to Ebou Dar and dealt with Suroth. At what point am I to believe she has been transformed and liberalized or become an accommodationist?
Alice A
1365. Wetlandernw
1354 hatecaddy - I didn't actually read much of your post, 'cause your general attitude (note the name) rather irritates me, but this part caught my eye: Tuon - Not even close. I know Tuon. I love Tuon and that scene with Beslan was an abomination. I don't believe for a moment that Tuon would have ever acted that way. etc. Let me just say for the record that I find this attitude inexcusably pretentious. First, you really don't know how much of this scene was specified by RJ. It may be completely his writing, or thoroughly outlined, or recorded in rough form; it's also possible that the end result was specified but the write-up left open. The point is, you don't know. Further, we do know that before writing anything, Brandon not only read the books, but studied them in depth to get a thorough analysis of the characters as well as the remaining plot lines. In addition, he was working with RJ's editors - all three of them - to make sure that he maintained continuity in characters, plots and all manner of details. Granted that even the best editor can miss a small detail now and then, I don't think Harriet, Maria and Alan would have let a complete characterization go all that far off track. So... you think you "know" Tuon better than Brandon, Harriet, Maria and Alan plus all of their source info? I take leave to doubt it.
Hurin Smells
1366. HurinSmells
I FINALLY got a chance to finish tGS on the weekend, so I've allowed myself to drop in and start reading spoilers. Wow! that's a lot of comments! Needless to say I've not read them all, but i couldn't resist recording my impressions of the book before getting up to speed with everyone else...

WOAH! what a ride! And YAY! the reappearance of my namesake! He didn't have much dialog, but the dialog he did have was instrumental in turning Rand from the dark side. HurinSmells? Yes he most certainly does, and evil Rand smells funky! :)

I must say the chapter where Semirhage collars Rand has to be one of my favourite in the series. I read this on a plane, and I think I held my breath for most of it! Having Rand channel the True Power through Moridin was a touch of genius(and I think this ability will be instrumental in Rands defeat of the DO). Once done I felt like yelling to all the other passengers who were sitting idliy "Don't you understand the enormity of what's just happened?!".

The BF'ing of Graendal was well done, if abrupt (similar to the Masema thing), and I wouldn't be too unhappy if we didnt see her again. However I think there's going to be a lot a timeline backtrack in ToM to cover off POV's that we missed. I mean we missed the whole bit about Perrin meeting up with Galad, and the unveiling of Morgase's true identity! And I really want to see another Forsaken meeting where they are reeling from the massive blows struck by the Light.

Also, Egwene for the win! I'll admit it felt a bit rushed compared to the rest of the series, and we could have probably done with a few more POV's to get the full scope of what was going on, but really, if it's a choice between padding out the book with even more detail, and resolving a plot line thats lasted 6 books, I'll choose the latter. I'm sure we'll hear more about it later tho. The question of course now is, is Messana really impersonating an AS with knowledge of how to defeat the Oath Rod, or is she just an initiate or perhaps even Laras!? :)

On the writing: For the most part it was very good. I'm not sure if it's because i read Mistborn 3 immediately prior to tGS but i noticed quite a number of references to allomantic metals in the first few chapters of tGS... not sure if this was an Easter Egg from Brandon, but it was kind of annyoing. And the whole sequence of Mat in the zombie village just smacked of Elantris to me. Those chapters seemed pretty pointless, the only plot progression to come out of it was to have Mat discover the DF's are circulating drawings of him and Perrin. And it took up a lot of screen time to do it. Also every time i read "bloody ashes" i cringed... it's "blood AND ashes"! On the whole though, aside from the Mat chapters seeming overly comical, i was very satisfied.

And as an aside i think the clue to Asmo's death came from the Moridin dream scene, where he strongly implies that Asmo was killed with BF... which essentially rules out all non-channelling suspects (Slayer, you're free to go, but don't cross state lines, we've got some more questions for you).

Phew!
Wilson Grooms
1367. stargazer
So I've been thinking more about the whole "why were the Green Ajah so utterly lame during the raid?" puzzle. And I have two ideas about that:

1) Did any of them ever have any prior experience fighting other channelers? It's one thing to go fight Trollocs, who as far as I can tell just stand there and let you throw fireballs at them, and it's something else entirely to have a hundred bloody giant flying lizards drop out of the sky at you with dozens of channelers throwing lightning bolts your way. If you can't even bring yourself to mention the existence of the Black Ajah, and ignore or don't know about the Windfinders and Wise Ones, I doubt you're likely as a society to spend a lot of time thinking about how to defend the Tower against an attack by channelers.

2) Does the Oath about never using the Power as a weapon except against shadowspawn even allow practicing? Depending on how literally it's taken, it may well not; it's not like one vows "except against shadowspawn, or in defense of my own life or my warder, or if I need to work on my aim with fireballs a little bit"...

The way I see it, the Shaido Aiel vs. Tower AS at Dumai's Wells was a battle of equals: equally untrained, amateur power-warrier equals. Damane, on the other hand, are professional death machines, trained almost single-mindedly in dealing out maximal damage with the Power. Alivia is practically a weapon of mass destruction all by herself, but she hardly knows anything else about channeling; war is all she does. I would assume that the Seanchan raid included some of their best damane - if I were planning a major raid on a known nest of marath'damane, I would be sure to send in as many near-Alivia-level war machines as I could, with the expectation that they'd be able to crush the opposition. As indeed they did.

The reason Egwene is the only one who can fight back effectively isn't just that she's got such an iron will, or 'cause she's the Amyrlin. It's because she, alone of all the AS in the Tower, is the only woman there who has spent two months undergoing Seanchan military Power-usage training, the only woman who has spent every day for weeks on end practicing blowing things to bits and rending the earth with the Power.

Wonder if she'll think to start teaching lessons before Tarmon Gai'don...
Wilson Grooms
1368. HateCaddy
1365@Wetlandernw

"I didn't actually read much of your post, 'cause your general attitude (note the name) rather irritates me..."


Too bad. I wont make any excuses for you, deal with your own shortsightedness.

"If RJ wrote that scene and I'm wrong so be it, but it absolutely felt off in the biggest of ways."

What part of this didn't you understand?
Rob Munnelly
1369. RobMRobM
@1354 - I'm curious. How would you have expected Tuon to have handled Beslan? I actually thought her character's points were well taken and that the overall scene was well done. (I had more problems with the Rand negotiation scene, which I thought was a bit off.) She did like his mother; he is rebelling for good of his country rather than for personal gain; having two Altaran rulers killed within a month or two would have disrupted efforts to use Ebou Dar as a base. The Tylee piece was also interesting - I wanted her to tell Tuon a bit more precisely that the Dragon's emissary was compelling and full of honor so that she could judge Rand even more by the quality of those to do tasks in his name.

Clarification would be helpful. Rob
Henry Loose
1370. schrodinger
@1364 hatecaddy

"Not buying this argument. The real Tuon was on display from before she made landfall in Randland. She was herself throughout her captivity with Mat and when she returned to Ebou Dar and dealt with Suroth. At what point am I to believe she has been transformed and liberalized or become an accommodationist?"

really? the real Tuon was herself, and showed her real self to a complete stranger, who, I might add, she was trying to learn as much about as she was trying to keep hidden. The only part we really learned of Tuon is that she is extremely cunning and devious (as well as good at reading signs). We saw that in TGS. everything else about her behavior or change in behavior could be attributed to: hmmmm... marrying mat; learning that suroth was a darkfriend; learning that her entire family (even though she did not like them much) was dead; that her entire nation was in chaos; that, maybe, spending time with the fun loving mat had rubbed off on her. Above all, I think Tuon's deviousness comes with a sense of practicality. When she was captive, she realized that it was best to stay with her captors (once the bounty was revealed on her head). she also shows this with ruling the westlands... it is better for the people to be familiar with their rulers, rather than have foreign rulers. Etc. I agree with Wetlandernw... an overall negative attitude.
john massey
1371. subwoofer
@HurinSmells- Yay! Good to see you! Wading in after over 1000 comments must of been daunting, but it is good to have you along:) I am glad your namesake provided a pivotal role in this one. I am glad you didn't cuss the other passengers out. Sky marshals have no sense of humor. None. At all. Zippo. Zilch. Squat. Bupkiss. Not that I have had any experience in this area...

@Stargazer- was thinking about the whole green ajah thing myself. Would be practical to have training sessions to hone some skills. They do in in TV for Accepted, why not make it like practice for the Warders. TG is coming. Enough of resting on your laurels. Things are going to go "Splat" off the fan.

I will say, the people best equipped to deal with the Seanchan threat are the Asha'man. They are also trained as weapons. It reminds me of Trade schools vs University. Both give you an education, Trade Schools are very practical and "hands on", Uni is very theoretical, unless you get into a very specific program like comp sci or forestry/aggi.

Yes, on the whole, I am giving a thumbs up to any plan involving actually getting prepared for TG. Eggy feels it, she talks about it and her focus was uniting the Tower so it is whole come TG. Now for the next step...

@Hatecaddy- just a friendly word, you are about to get into it with our other resident guru, some- Free- would say our original guru. Tread carefully and offer chocolate chunk cookies. It always helped me in the past;)

Woof™.
craig thrift
1372. gagecreedlives
HateCaddy@1354

“Tuon - Not even close. I know Tuon. I love Tuon and that scene with Beslan was an abomination. I don't believe for a moment that Tuon would have ever acted that way. If RJ wrote that scene and I'm wrong so be it, but it absolutely felt off in the biggest of ways.”

Im not sure about that. Tuon was pretty accommodating with Tylin as well. Im thinking of the scene where Tylin meets Tuon and is basically sh*tting herself but Tuon puts her at ease. I think that Tuon would rather keep the local rulers as that would be less likely to cause civil unrest. IIRC the other rulers that were killed or made into slaves where the ones that refused to take the oaths and/or continued fighting.


And what do you have against caddies? They are very helpful when it comes to carrying my golf clubs.

stargazer@1367

Throw in the fact that none of ‘em actually seem to spend time in the boderlands helping to fight the trollocs. Battle ajah my backside.
john massey
1373. subwoofer
@Free- was thinking, your "I'm not a guru" is starting to sound like a couple of character's "I'm not a lord" denials.

Just sayin'.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1374. HateCaddy
1369@RobMRobM

"I'm curious. How would you have expected Tuon to have handled Beslan?"



The first accommodation was reasonable, but this was stretching the bounds of incredulity.

"You need not speak any further lies, child of Tylin" Tuon said directly to him, causing gasps of surprise from the assembled Blood. "I know of the things you have said to General Habiger and your friend, Lord Malalin. I know of your quiet meetings in the basement of The Three Stars. I know of it all, King Beslan."


His head was forfeit right here. Amongst her assembled High Blood, Low Blood and everyone else in attendance it was absolutely over. Goodbye Beslan, it's been real, keep in touch with yourself and don't ever change amigo!
Henry Loose
1375. schrodinger
@hatecaddy 1374

you say that (the head was forfeit thing) as if it was written in the book... Tuon instead, as a practical ruler, decided that she had a tool that had been put in its proper place and could be of use... and didn't need to be tossed out. Also, it sent a message: I know what each and every one of you do, but look how benevolent I can be... serve me well, and I will reward you.
R B
1376. MasterAlThor
Has anyone noticed that the pattern is starting to unravel???

I just went to check the post to reference you guys to it and the abnormalties are gone.

See what discussing balfire gets you....

Wetlandernw...

Come on. Give the guy a break. You know that some of us tend to go off the deep end every now and then. Try not to let it get under your skin.
Good arguement though.

Tinaaa....

Welcome, stick around for awhile. We have lots of fun here.

Freelancer....

Hello. My name is Master AlThor and I am a TAN-oholic.

Hurinsmells....

The only problem I have with Asmo being BFed is that is a complex weave and it uses a definite amount of power. Rand would have sensed it.

Subwoofer....

As much as I would like to see Mat visit with his family, I don't see it happening. The TR is just to far away. Unless Elayne has someone open a gateway to the TR and Mat and Thom ride to the ToG from there. Otherwise it's just out of the way.
Wilson Grooms
1377. HateCaddy
1370@schrodinger

"I agree with Wetlandernw... an overall negative attitude.


I really want to let this stand on it's own. And, by the Light, I will!
john massey
1378. subwoofer
I think the thing for Tuon is the maintaining of stability. Or at least the appearance of it. In the past, if a person took the Oaths to the Crystal Throne, then they were considered subjects with all the rights and privileges. I am not going to get into real world parallels, but suffice it to say, Tuon seems to be in character.

Tuon is also adapting in the sense that she realizes that you cannot fight a war on two fronts. She is divided from her homeland and initial power base. There was a chapter where somebody else is taking the throne back in Seanchan. Tuon has to conserve and marshal her forces on this side of the ocean, deal with things here and then after she consolidates her empire and her butt is parked on the Throne she can go buck on every one.

There is nothing wrong with a bit of diplomacy.
Tuon needed Altara. she needed Ebou Dar. Beslan was well loved by the people. Putting his head on a pike after the mysterious death of his mother... Well, Tuon would have stability in Ebou Dar, but she would rather not have to leave battlefronts unmanned to accomplish it.


M A T has a point. I remember when I was fledgling on this post and I started a few flame wars... R.Fife and a few others patiently and gently showed me the error of my ways...

And there will be a Cauthon reunion. I have Dreamed it so.

Woof™.
Henry Loose
1379. schrodinger
@hatecaddy 1377

could you be more specific as to what is standing on its own?
Jacy Clark
1380. Amalisa
think before you spake @1359

Hmmm... you're right. Forgot about the whole binder thing...

*stands corrected and rings bell* Next?
Hurin Smells
1381. HurinSmells
sub@1371 - thanks mate! yeah, 1300 comments is a massive learning curve. I felt particularily fond of this group reading that many of us feel uncomfortable with "bloody ashes" over "blood and ashes" though :)

master@1367 - hmm, I agree with the argument, however it's likely that anyone who is willing to use the weave for BF also knows how to invert the weave so that it's undetectable. I still favor Graendal as the culprit, but Lanfear fits this critera just as well.
Wilson Grooms
1382. Planeswalker_rei
Ooops... Hey, HateCaddy... Pssst... Here's the bunker... Here's some cookies too... It's ok, R.Fife's not here. :)
Patrick Huff
1383. pattack
@Hatecaddy

Don't let these guys bother you, they all tend to gang up cause they think they know so much more. I find their analysis boring most of the time so I ignore them. You have a legitimate arguement and they all got the claws out.

The only thing I would add to the assessment of Tuons audience with Beslan is the lack of previous chapters in any of the books regarding her authority. Without researching, there was a time during her captivity that she took command of the traveling show. I don't believe anyone was killed and she handled that incident with diplomacy. (which adds to the theory of her Ta'vereness)

Don't let these guys and gals get to you, they aren't worth the time....
Wilson Grooms
1384. Planeswalker
This is what happens when I'm working and reading TOR comments at the same time. Can't be seen logging in... Ahhh, to shame my name... My avatar is ruined...
Henry Loose
1385. schrodinger
@pattack 1383

the claws only came out once hatecaddy was rude. "Not buying this argument" come on. there are so many better, more polite ways to say that you disagree with someone's argument. The whole tone of his reply just seemed like an attack to me, if it wasn't, I apologize. (my own reply to his first post on the subject of Tuon was just my ideas on why she could be acting differently, not an attack on his ideas).

This whole aura of rude led me to side with wetlandernw...

as to not being worth the time... *ouch* (clutches heart) a considerable blow to my infinite ego ;-)
Wilson Grooms
1386. HateCaddy
1375@schrodinger

"you say that (the head was forfeit thing) as if it was written in the book... Tuon instead, as a practical ruler, decided that she had a tool that had been put in its proper place and could be of use... and didn't need to be tossed out. Also, it sent a message: I know what each and every one of you do, but look how benevolent I can be... serve me well, and I will reward you."


That's not in character. My point has been that it's not important what you or others would consider practical, but that Tuon acts, behaves and makes decisions based on what she has done before. What's so difficult to understand about that?

If she has undergone some type of transformation that makes her more accommodating to dissident viewpoints, then please by all means point me to the correct book and chapter that details such.

I'm going to leave it there. I don't regularly participate on this site for what should be by now very obvious reasons. This is a community of like minded WoT fans and I'm assuredly out of place here. Have fun, be well and stay out of trouble.
john massey
1387. subwoofer
'K- let's respect each other here folks...

I was quoting directly from the book, Gambits, chapter 19 pages 297- 305...

@1354- I do have to agree on the one hand, even back when, Caddy did grind on me. Something about the "Phaw!" and her bungling of Taim and Logain speak volumes... It was like MI 3, where great pains are taken to capture the baddie and then like every other movie, the "Baddie" escapes during the transport to prison.

I also believe I ranted on this in previous posts, especially when Caddy slaps Rand. I think I said something to the tune of giving Rand the respect the Dragon Reborn deserves and not just calling him "boy" all the time.

Tuon, well,
OrderTuon thought, tapping the black wood of her armrest with a blue-lacquered findernail. Order must emanate from me. I will brind the calm airs to those beset by storms.

She leaned forward, unlacing her fingers. "But understand this. If you decide to join with us, you will give me your heart, and not just your words. I will not allow you to ignore your oaths. I have given you this chance because I believe you can be a strong ally, and I think that you were misguided, perhaps by Suroth's twisted webs. You have one day to make your decision. Think well. Your mother thought this to be the best course, and she was a wise woman. The Empire means stability. A rebellion would mean only suffering, starvation, and obscurity. These are not times to be alone, Beslan."

... And then Beslan gives unexpected oaths and in response to a General's umbrage, Tuon responds
"We demand that this people adopt our ways, General," she said. "It is fitting that we accept some of theirs." Not too many of those ways of course. But she could thank her long conversations with Mistress Anan( my hero) for allowing her to understand this. The Seanchan had, perhaps, made a mistake with this people in making them swear Seanchan oaths of obedience. Matrim had sworn those oaths, but ignored them handily when the time came-yet he had been certain to keep his word to her, and his men had assured her he was a man of honor.


Great googly moogly. Sub's paws are tired from typing! Must rest now...

Woof™.
T C
1388. Freelancer
gagecreedlives@1353

I think Aludra's treatment of Mat is quite valid. You see, there is some chemistry there. Aludra feels it, but now that Mat is married, to avoid any possibility of closeness between them she must be a tad harsh.


pattack@1358

Six days from Taren Ferry to Baerlon.

Four days from Baerlon to Shadar Logoth, during which the party traveled mostly east on the Caemlyn Road, then north during most of the last day fleeing trollocs until Lan convinces Moiraine to rest in Shadar Logoth. They have not crossed the Arinelle at any time yet, but we know that the city is very close to the river. Looking at a map, I would put it just slightly North of due East from Baerlon. As for the Tower:

Another time, when the eastward shore had become flat grassland again, broken only occasionally by thickets, the sun glinted off something in the distance. "What can that be?" Rand wondered aloud. "It looks like metal."
Captain Domon was walking by, and he paused, squinting toward the glint. "It do be metal," he said. His words still ran together, but Rand had come to understand without having to puzzle it out. "A tower of metal. I have seen it close up, and I know. River traders use it as a marker. We be ten days from Whitebridge at the rate we go."

This was less than four days out of Shadar Logoth.


subwoofer@1360

There has long been speculation that Slayer doesn't actually go into the Tower of Ghenjei. Perrin sees him go to it, step around it, then he doesn't see Slayer again. He could have simply stepped out of T'a'R at that point, hoping that Perrin would manage to enter the Tower and get stuck there. Birgitte stops him, tells him it's very hard to leave it once inside.

What has me curious is folks' insistence on the same number going out as in business. I don't remember reading any such rule of behavior for the 'Finn, so if there's a reference...


HateCaddy@1364

I don't understand calling Tuon an accomodationist, or that it shows that her character has changed. If you mean her offer to Beslan, it is exactly the same offer that was made to Tylin. Tuon liked Tylin, and she understood Beslan's loyalty to his mother's memory. Also, it was the Seanchan method to take over, receive the oaths from the locals, then give municipal control right back to the local powers. Last, there's a small thing called strategy, something with which Tuon is marginally familiar. She wants Ebou Dar to be her Capitol, and either ousting or executing Beslan would bring massive riots. The people loved Tylin, they love Beslan, and the boy has been busy preparing to oppose the Seanchan. It is in Tuon's best interest to maintain peace.

Of course, you're welcome to disagree, that's the fun of all this. But trust me when I say that you err greatly in any hope of having your viewpoint read credibly when you call Wetlandernw shortsighted. Take it as you will.


subwoofer@1373

Look, the guru is on duty now (@1310, @1362, @1365). I only do what needs to be done.
Captain Hammer
1389. Randalator
Finally got around to a) reading and b) finishing TGS. And DISCLAIMER where DISCLAIMER's due: I did not, I repeat: NOT, read all 1388 comments on this monster. Because, seriously you guys, I love you, but no way. Nu-uh.

So if I say anything in this here comment that has already been said by others, which will probably be true for just about everything I'm about to say, just know that I don't give a flying to'raken-dropping. I just have to get my thoughts out of my system.

Okay, first of all general comment about the book in...uh...general: SWEET MERCYFUL JEBUS! THAT WAS AWESOME! What was it? AWESOME! That's what.

I think that was probably the most fast-paced WoT novel ever. Things just kept happening and happening and happening. Really a thrilling ride.

Egwene: She's been rockin' ever since she had been captured by the WT Aes Sedai and boy, oh boy did it pay off. That whole story arc was just badassery in cans. And culminated in one of the coolest WoT scenes in probably ever.

Rand: Wow. That guy really and thoroughly hit rock bottom. And then he smashed right through the bottom and through three additional layers of bottom until he hit something even more solid than rock bottom. And bounced off. Twice. It's a miracle that he's still standing and even somewhat on the upswing.

Perrin: Was sorta in this novel. Somewhere. I guess.

Mat: Was sorta in this novel. Did some deadpan snarking and just kinda reminded you at times that he can dump a truckload of badass on you any time he wishes. He is even badass when he more or less isn't due to reduced screentime. YAY!

Verin: Since TGH I feared that she would just be revealed as Black Ajah, which always seemed too simple for my taste. And I always hoped that she she wouldn't because see above. Never anticipated that Jordan would manage to pull off both at the same time. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.

Masema: Wow. And here I was thinking that that disaster would really come round and bite the sheepherder and the blacksmith in there respective asses. "*Stab* You're dead now!" Color me dumbfounded...!

Cadsuane: Always irked me with her arrogant attitude (Yay, Tam! for bringing that up). But her spanking Semiraghe made me positively giddy. Gnihihihihihi!

The writing: I don't care what some others have said, to me it seemed very true to RJ's work. There were some points (very far and in between) where I thought to recognize Sanderson as the author. Often just for a few random sentences. I'm pretty sure that he wrote the very first scene in the prologue. And Verin's and Mat's dialogues seemed to be the slightest bit off...although the first could be attributed to Verin's impending Crowning Moment of Awesome. Or general two-authors-paranoia. But overall TGS just felt like a genuine novel by the Creator himself. Kudos Mr. Sanderson. Outstanding work.

Nitpicking: A few minor disappointments (and I DO mean minor; as in itty-bitty-teeny-weeny) were the following...

- I didn't quite like the way we got rid of Elaida. I prefer a good "fire and brimstone judgement, you will know our wrath and the full extent of your failings" over James-Bond-Villain-ish ends every time. So (*puts on helmet and cup*) I hope we will see her again.

- A similar complaint goes for Sheriam. Hello? Important secondary character anyone? I would have liked to at least know a bit of her motivations for going over to the shadow. I'm a sucker for motivation. Random evilishness is bad. Me want reasons!
Wilson Grooms
1390. Planeswalker
Oh man, fresh ideas are open here. Nobody has to attack anyone. And everybody has to take lightly the criticisms or negative comments.

C'mon, we all love WoT anyway. Don't go just yet... Where's the rickroller when you need him? *wait, im looking for fun links* hehehe
Wilson Grooms
1391. a_m_m_b
RE: 1330 @ jasonreid:

"On the plus side, I’m puzzled by the negative or horrified reaction to Rand’s destruction of Graendal’s Fortress of Solitude by balefire, and how the positive/negative reaction is splitting down male/female lines. Even compared to all the other moments of Rand awesomeness in the series, this to me is the single most epic stand-out Rand scene in the entire WOT history so far.

It shows his dilemma as the General for the Light and the burden of destruction he must bear for all who fight in the light – he has to make the hardest, most awful decisions any good man could ever be forced to make – knowing he’ll be reviled even though it was the right move to make. It shows he IS becoming the great general he needs to be for the coming battle, using LTT and not rejecting him even before fully integrating himself with the past life memories, and not just a trumped up farmboy relying on Bashere, Rhuarc and others to win for him. And lastly, even knowing what was likely to happen long before getting to the specific page in the chapter, it was great writing that ramped up the tension to breaking point and then delivered a shocking smack in the face to the reader."


Excellent observation. Rand is stuck with having to do whatever is necessary - it & trying to avoid it are huge parts of why he's been so going batsh*t crazy. He's finally admitting, accepting & acting upon what he's known all along. He's wasted enough time being nice, being polite, being hopeful, being helpful. TG is any day & the world has byNlarge refused to get with the program & has thus aidedNabetted the DO.

Time's up: dance to the necessary tune or die.

Rather like when Richard in Terry Goodkind's Seeker books: came a time when it was do the necessary w/o wasting any more resources (time, lives, materials) on chasing the ideals as the enemy & the refusnicks were destroying everything Richard was needing to accomplish. At least he didn't have his best friends, advisors, etc. undercutting & aghasting him to death.
craig thrift
1392. gagecreedlives
HurinSmells@1381

You have infinitely more patience than me. I tried to read all the posts, got to about 400 and was like nuts to this. Lets skip to the end.

pattack@1383

I disagree that we all get our claws out.

Planeswalker@1384

That reminds of the time before I became a member that I was d&ping and somehow managed to combine my avatar and email address. Truly was a special night.

HateCaddy@1386

I don’t have the book handy with me but doesn’t Tuon think to herself how Setalle Anan was onto something about learning local cultures and respecting them. Any quote masters out there that want to help me out here please feel free.
Henry Loose
1393. schrodinger
1386@hatecaddy

we apparently have very different viewpoints of what Tuon's character is, and what her past decisions have meant and been based on... and transformations do not have to take place on stage so to speak... take mat for example: went coocoo over being married between KoD and TGS.

We welcome all dissenters here... feel free to come back.
T C
1394. Freelancer
Amalisa@1352
And there is no successful 12-step program!

Sure there is, with a perfect 100% recidivism rate.
Just don't name Narg as your Higher Power, and you have a chance.
Captain Hammer
1395. Randalator
jasonreid@1330

On the plus side, I’m puzzled by the negative or horrified reaction to Rand’s destruction of Graendal’s Fortress of Solitude by balefire, and how the positive/negative reaction is splitting down male/female lines. Even compared to all the other moments of Rand awesomeness in the series, this to me is the single most epic stand-out Rand scene in the entire WOT history so far.

I agree on that particular point. Rand's reasoning in that scene is sound. He has identified Graendal's hideout. All the people there are without a shadow of a doubt graendalated automatons that are impossible to be saved. Forcing Graendal into a dogfight is out of the question due to her character. There is just no other way.

The strain to the Pattern is the only problem here but obviously can't be avoided.

Rand trying to kill Tam is shocking. Rand intending to balefire the Seanchan and their occupied cities to smithereens is shocking. Rand wiping out Graendal's fortress with (most likely) her and her pets in it is not.
craig thrift
1396. gagecreedlives
Blood and ashes by the time I type one post another 10 spring up.

Thank you subwoofer@1387 for typing out the passage I was thinking of.

Freelancer@1388

But Aludra had already stopped the games with Mat when everyone thought he ran away with Egeanin but started spending all his time with Tuon. She told him something like “you are already juggling 2 women and I wont be juggled.”
But then again your more than likely right and Im over thinking it.

Note to self don’t open any links from Planeswalker.
Alice A
1397. Wetlandernw
stargazer @ 1367 - Good point about the Green Ajah never having fought channelers before. As far as we know, the only time since the Breaking was at Dumai's Wells, and AFAIK none of those AS are present in the WT during this attack. So the only person on site who has had any occasion to even think about it is... Egwene. Yup.

subwoofer @ 1373 - I knew that sounded too familiar... LOL!

HateCaddy - Calm down. Was going to respond to an earlier statement, but it isn't necessary. I apologize if I overreacted to you - I get that way when people claim to "know" things that they don't. (We've had some right flamewars from people who "know" opposing things. It's not pretty.) No problem with "I don't like it" or "felt off to me." We kinda function on the principle that the only people allowed to make authoritative statements regarding WoT are RJ, Harriet and Brandon. (Alan & Maria could, as well, but they don't.) Even Leigh doesn't get away with it, so don't feel persecuted. "Like-minded" cracked me up. You wouldn't believe some of the... debates.... (?!!!!) we've had. Big thing, though, we are like-minded in loving these books, and enjoying the opportunity to discuss them. So we like to keep it civil and enjoy our disagreements.

pattack - defensive much? I'd offer you port, but sounds like you need something stronger.

Hey, everybody! Has anyone seen the scotch? I know we had some here the other day.

::searches the bar::

:::mumble mumble I know it's here somewhere:::
john massey
1398. subwoofer
Yes Free-guru-lancer, Wet is amongst us now;) But there is nothing wrong with a deacon-like position. Here- don't forget your ashandarei leaning by the door...

Interesting point your guruness has brought up, I don't quite remember seeing something about three having to come out, but I am well into the Scotch by now so my memory is foggy- Sorry Wetlander, t'was me. I cannot tell a lie, drunk as I am. Anyways, I am sure a sober person can figure this out, or I will tackle this tomorrow, when I find the books.

@GCL- you are welcome, but now my dog is pawing away at the computer for me. She takes dictation well, but some of the words don't translate well from human to dog...

Look at the bright side folks- we have gone from a measly 27 posts to this.

@Randalator- Weeee! We are all catching up now! If grubber could just come along...

The events of the book- Rand banishing Caddy and the mistreatment of Tam and Hurin really eclipsed the whole Sheriam thing. I understood what Leigh was talking about when she referred to "wanting to hurl the book". I did, and my wife go angry with me for damaging our new house. Thankfully I was a taper in my University days so I could patch the hole I made.

But in speaking to the Sheriam thing- good point. I would of at least pumped her for more info before cutting the head off. On the other hand, look at the net result from Elayne and Ny and Eggy hanging onto Moggy and then having her escape. If that got out!!! I think Eggy has learned from her mistakes and has taken the scorched earth policy here.

If Rand had killed the bad guys from the start, Mo would be around and he might still have two hands to hold his flash light. He needs to listen more to the Aiel and stop pansying around with his wetlander(no offense) ways. Being hard is one thing, having misguided notions of honor...No mercy to the Shadow!

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1399. Silvertip
The way I see Tuon's character, more than anything else, is *smart*. You don't survive all those assassination attempts and other political paths of daggers that she has if you're not willing to be a hardass when you need to be and simultaneously willing to make accommodations and alliances when you need to. As a conqueror, co-opting popular local rulers when you can is just plain good sense. Ambushing them with your knowledge and power and then surprising them with your mercy is a sharp way to go about it. You can bet your that Beslan will be watched extremely closely, but handling the situation that way seems to have strengthened her position more than nuking the guy and trying to install either some other local or somebody like Galgan in the Tarasin Palace would have--which is why she did it. I do see your point, HateCaddy, but to me that scene feels right, and not like a shift in character at all.
Jacy Clark
1400. Amalisa
Wetlandernw@1397

Scotch? Um, I have it. Sorry. *offers the bottle of Pinch*
Captain Hammer
1401. Randalator
subwoofer@1398

But in speaking to the Sheriam thing- good point. I would of at least pumped her for more info before cutting the head off. On the other hand, look at the net result from Elayne and Ny and Eggy hanging onto Moggy and then having her escape. If that got out!!! I think Eggy has learned from her mistakes and has taken the scorched earth policy here.

I'm not necessarily saying that Egwene should have pumped her for information. That moggy disaster is a valid point. But I would have liked to get some reader exclusive information at least. Sheriam has been around from the very beginning (chronology-wise), after all, so I'm interested in what made her tick.

I mean, there was a POV from her that revealed her as Black Ajah to us even before Verin's list. Why not slip in some information in form of a flashback or some random pondering (like with Kadere for example)? That is a missed opportunity to me...
craig thrift
1402. gagecreedlives
Wetlandernw@1397

Oh man I just got flashbacks to the great spanking debate. Now that was interesting.

Subwoofer

Pass me some of that scotch. Trust me with enough you will think Im Dr Doolittle with how well I will converse in dog.
john massey
1403. subwoofer
@GCL- yes this is getting interesting- Every time I refresh my posts have to get longer to address the stuff that falls from the sky as my dog is typing. She is getting irked at me for making her do constant edits. Or as TOR calls it, amendments.

@Torie- a favor- the back to the top link? Pretty please? I'll save you some scotch... Although, from some of the byob events I have been to, bring beer and you have friends and not much beer, bring scotch, there you go guv'nor- it's all yours.

Edit- you see? And apparently we hav etwo bottles in circulation here.

@Randalator- maybe spanking the truth out of her:P I get the impression from some of the other BAs POVs that it is a thirst for power, the lure of immortality and all those trappings. Maybe to become one of the Chosen.

@GCL- sure, here you go ::passes bottle:: Just be warned my pooch is heavily sarcastic. Picked that up from her momma.

Woof™.
john massey
1404. subwoofer
Just a thought- but a bunch of debate, on this post and in the books, have been about the Three Oaths. Maybe the attraction of the BA has to do with the freedom from those oaths. Regaining the ability to lie, do harm and create weapons... Makes me wonder if Elayne is the only one who has rediscovered the making of angreal and other items of Power.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1405. Herr_Flick
Ok, finally finished it.

Overall great book, Egwene and Rands story arcs were both great.

But Mat....
I almost got a Jar Jar Binks moment with him. What is this character doing here, someone make him go away.
Barry T
1406. blindillusion
Back from a refreshing jaunt to Ebou Dar aka a pleasant Sunday day-trip with the wife and little one.

Just a few tidbits for your consideration:

1- From Rand and Moridin's Fireside Chat:

"There is no path to victory," Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."

I didn't notice this until my re-read, but found it funny as hell when I read it. How can there be more than one eternity? I only bring it up because I wrote about it in a Religious Studies course and a Philosophy course in college.

And it also reminds me of a short story I had to edit in a Craft of Fiction course in which the author wrote about a spaceship that stretched for infinity suddenly appearing in space above Earth. Couldn't help but ask the question, "How can a ship that goes for infinity suddenly appear anywhere? Wouldn't it of always been there?"

2- What ever happened to Mattin Stepaneos? Egwene was interested in talking to him in Honey in the Tea, but he appeared no where in tGS. Poor guy...wonder if he survived the Tower attack.

3- I don't know if anyone saw this question way up there in the comments, but me@912

Here's a shot in the Dark...err...a question I haven't seen mentioned yet. Does anyone think Verin had to kill Balinor when she was forced into the Black Ajah?

I'm hoping one of the resident gurus can think of something. I only recall one scene where she thought of him.

And to all a pleasant week.

- Blind
Wilson Grooms
1407. Aye Aye Sedai
@Torie- a favor- the back to the top link? Pretty please?

Thats why the computer geniuses have a Home and End key - use them wisely and learn the shortcuts,

Was at one Borders this week and absolutely no tGS - no displays - only multiple new paper back eds of other 11 books. Went to other store location and they had about 50-60 copies on table front and center as you enter the shop.

B&N had about 200 copies on display when I bought mine - noticed Hb KoD on bargain table and TGs law of Nines was also on clearance ( was that even 8 weeks from release to bargain bin?)

Generally I find that stores are only grabbing 1-2 copies of many new SF&F books unless they know they are major sellers - it is very disappointing to hit local book stores.
Wilson Grooms
1408. dozburger1
So - a simple theory based on a few prophecies and events in TGS. In summary:
Rand will use his forces to split Randland in two
Egwene and the Seanchan will make an alliance
Rand will confront them
Don’t what happens after that...

The evidence for such preposterousness:

Tuon has defied Rand and refused a peace treaty. Rand thinks he will have to fight the Last Battle by himself with the troops and channelers he has. To protect his rear flank from further attacks by the Seanchan, and potentially the White Tower, he will construct a wall of troops and channelers across Randland, thus fulfilling what Avienda told him: “Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword”. Doing this also gives a very literal interpretation of Nicola’s foretelling: “The land divided by the return...” - literally, Rand divides the land because of the return of the Seanchan.

This would annoy Tuon mightly, who will realise that she won’t be able to subdue Rand with the forces she has – and she has to subdue Rand before he can confront the Dark One (according to Seanchan prophecy). She’ll relunctantly turn to Egwene for an alliance. Egwene, having fixed the White Tower, now has a far bigger problem. The White Tower has pretty much alienated every country, ruler and force in Randland and is now unable to influence events. Both of these are predicted by Egwene’s dream: “She (Egwene) was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. [...] Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. [...] Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent. Another note is that it seems the White Tower has to side with either Rand or the Seanchan, as per the Kaerethon Cycle: "The north shall he tie to the East, the south to the west, and none shall stand in between.”

So Egwene and Seanchan will join forces and who knows, maybe the Seanchan will learn that women don’t need to be leashed?
Anyway, the alliance could lead to two events: One, Egwene trying to tear down the ‘wall’ that Rand has erected, as per her dream: “She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important...”
And two, as per another dream of Egwene: “Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan” - so Rand annoyed at both her and the Seanchan turns up to have a chat about it.
Jacy Clark
1410. Amalisa
dozburger1@1408

Interesting... very much so... So the Seanchan woman with the sword on her back... someone obvious, like Tylee, sent by the Empress (may she live forever)? Or is it actually Tuon, and the Seanchan military might is the "sword"?

blindillusion@1406

Good question re Mattin Stepaneos... and now it's going to bother me. *lol*
Alice A
1411. Wetlandernw
Blind @1406 - Does anyone think Verin had to kill Balinor when she was forced into the Black Ajah?
It's possible, but we don't have much to go on. We have pretty good evidence that Verin joined the BA about 70 years ago. The only thing we know about Balinor is in Lord of Chaos Ch. 11: It had taken her ten years to get over Balinor's death and bond Tomas... So if she had to kill Balinor at the time she joined the BA, that would mean Tomas has been her Warder for about 60 years. We know that he is "graying" and that Warders tend to age fairly well, given the chance, but they do not have an extended lifespan. (Per RJ's blog: Warders don’t slow. They age at a natural pace, but they do maintain vitality and vigor beyond the levels associated with most ordinary men.)Seems to me that, if she bonded him at 20 (give or take a few) and he's now 80 (give or take a few) he'd look older. Incidentally, we know that there are other BA who have non-DF Warders. (E.g. Eldrith has to carefully mask her bond to Kennit so he can't follow her.)

So my answer, non-authoritative, is that it's possible but not probable that Balinor was killed (by her or someone else) as an immediate consequence of Verin joining the BA. It probably did happen within 10 or 20 years, though; IMO he could easily be 60 or even 70 based on RJ's comments. HTH!

dozburger1 @ 1408 - Where does the "none shall stand in between" come from? I recognize the previous phrases, from CoS Ch. 34, but I don't recall the "none in between" bit.
Barry T
1412. blindillusion
Yes, Wetlandernw, it does help. I didn't remember the "ten years" part. And as Tomas is, according to Verin, spending his last hour with his family one would have to suppose that Tomas has not been Verin's Warder for 60+ years.

(Of course, I'm taking family to mean parents...but that might be a stretch in and of itself. He could be visiting his younger sister's daughter's 10 year old boy for all we know.)

And as Verin bonded Tomas to offer him a way out of the DO's service, one would also have to suppose that he'd been in service long enough to know he'd made a mistake.

So, you're probably right there as well. He doesn't seem old enough to have known 60+ years ago that he'd made a mistake...unless he's older than he seems.

See, that's why I asked for a guru's help. You guys are awesome.
Alice A
1413. Wetlandernw
Comments and miscellaneous cleanup from the hundreds of previous posts... just in case anyone cares. Wall-o-text warning...

Lily @120 "Mat literally married Lady Luck" - I loved that. Hadn't quite thought of it just that way. :-) How singularly appropriate for Mat.

And @various, for the rest of my life I will think of this book whenever I hear Carmina Burana. Nice to know so many of you thought of it too.

Just in case anyone is still confused (there seemed to be a lot in the early stages), Verin was never, never, never a Darkfriend. She was Black Ajah, but she spent her whole life working for the Light. Whoever thought that Verin was turned by the 13/13 thing, nope. That would have changed her personality and made her a true DF, not a LightMole. She just got too close to the truth about the BA, made one little mistake, and... Oops! She had to either pretend to have been snooping because she wanted to join, or be killed to prevent her exposing them. A true Brown, she took the opportunity to keep learning. I love the way she used her BA abilities (to do things not approved by the WT) to do all manner of things to help Team Light. I also like the added proof that the DO can't read minds. (We already knew that, of course, but more proof is always a good thing.) Verin, in her sneaky Brown way, did some truly amazing things, and I very much enjoyed the way RJ and Brandon used her to make lots of other little details clear for us if we think to look at it.

Like some others, I found it a bit disconcerting to learn in such an offhand manner that Morgase had been "outed" already. Someone suggested, and I agree, that it's quite possibly an artifact of the AMoL split. Based on Brandon's comments, it's a good bet that in the original single-book writing, this scene came after the bit where everyone got to Caemlyn together. Whether they felt in editing that it was important to leave that part of the conversation in place, or whether they just overlooked it, only Team Jordan could tell us, if they wished. (I could easily see missing it, all things considered.) In any case, I'm (almost) sure we'll get a better "view" of it in the next book.

As I recall, it was made pretty clear in advance that this book was going to deal mostly with Rand and Egwene; the other major arcs would be touched but only superficially. We got mostly what I expected, in that regard; brief contact with Mat & Perrin, a couple of steps toward their next destination, some idea what that destination would be and indicators of how they would get there.

In that context, I was a little surprised by the number of people disappointed with their storylines, and particularly the lack of Moiraine-rescue action. That's got to be way too significant an event to be tucked into a minor plot line. It should be part of the next book. Speaking of which... when I first saw the title for the next book, I thought it was obvious that it would be dealing with the BT and the ToG, with maybe some WT thrown in. "Midnight" would indicate that Randland is descending into the darkest time before coming back out into daylight for (or after) TG. Thanks to Lady Belaine, I've changed my mind.

I'd totally forgotten that one lonely reference way back in TGH (there goes my guruhood!) about "Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight" when they collared her. So my new theory is that with Travelling learned from their new damane, Fortuona will take the opportunity to deal with some things back home for some reason. After Mat rescues Moiraine, maybe he will somehow link up with her and they'll go together. Here's a thought - Rand thinks he has to go rescue Mat from Seanchan, and that's when he does whatever-it-is with the Crystal Throne. Probably not, but its an idea. Anyway, I'm guessing that whatever happens at the Towers of Midnight will be the climax of the book, and the Crystal Throne thing will be part of it.

I was mostly amused by all the "hey, that's not my Mat" comments. (BTW, "Mat as comic buffoon" - it's not entirely unprecedented. Can you say "Tylin's Toy"?) I recall being concerned after reading Chapter One (back when...), that Brandon's take on Nynaeve's personality was enough different than mine that it would probably bug me all through the book. Turns out it wasn't so different after all, and by the time I got a couple of chapters further in, I was fine with it. I'm betting that you'll find it so in the next book, when Mat has major screen time and awesomeness (as you know he will). Here, he needed some screen time and a little movement, but his truly significant actions and MOAs have to be saved for the next book. So it was mostly playing around. Loved his scene with Verin, though: "You think I'm going to promise to obey some instructions without knowing what they're going to be? Let's do some horse-trading..." Total Mat.

Whoever was complaining about "Fortuona", I'm betting that RJ had that tagged for her Empress-name before we ever even heard of Tuon - quite possibly before we even heard of the Daughter of the Nine Moons. I don't think that's the kind of thing he'd have left open for someone else to make up.

confutus @ 287 (and a couple of others) - RJ said that female Dreadlords are called Dreadlords.

Min's viewing of Nynaeve and the unidentified corpse - I expect this to be the scene where Nynaeve Heals death. (No way am I going to speculate on the corpse's identity!) And on the subject of viewings, etc.... Me, I think the Seanchan from Egwene's dream will turn out to be Tylee. Could be a more general representation, but I want it to be Tylee. She's cool.

Just a note... Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean will be to go through the columns; she already went through the rings. We've seen whatever we're going to see of that.
Alice A
1414. Wetlandernw
Oh, and just for fun... over at LOC #31, comment 680, birgit compiled the latest postcount and wordcount stats, NOT including this monstrosity. (In other words, just the actual re-read posts.) Freelancer & subwoofer, we three is wordy!

::magic fingers, don't fail me now::
Wilson Grooms
1415. marryprice
I understand the real damage balefire does. Rand asks himself why he should fight, why go to war? and the answer he comes up with is because he didn't do it right last time and now he's got a second chance.

http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=2159637
T C
1416. Freelancer
blindillusion@1406

Don't even get me started on things like eternities. In a cosmology with a repeating timeline, there isn't one eternity, much less multiple eternities.

But in reference to that very scene between Rand and Moridin:
"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."
Moridin gave no reaction. He was still staring at the flames. "We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

There is no sense of deception in anything Moriding says to Rand during this encounter, so I will take the words at face value. Ishamael has the unique ability among all of the forsaken to be aware of the multitude of turnings the Wheel has endured. So what is it about Rand's statement which is stupid? There can really be only two possibilities.

1) Death is not possible for the Dark One. If this were the case, I have trouble thinking that Moridin would address it so. If I were a forsaken, and I knew that the Dark One could not be destroyed, only contained, then I would wish for my enemy to attempt a tactic which was doomed to failure.

2) Successfully destroying the Dark One would have a much different result than Rand believes. This points to Rand's final words, "Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint.".

It is explained very early on in the story that the Wheel is turned by the complimentary yet opposing forces of saidin and saidar, working both with and against each other. Perhaps the opposing natures of humanity and the Dark One have a hand in that as well. It is no accident that the yin-yang symbol has prominence. It represents the male/female Aes Sedai before the Breaking. Or maybe it truly represents the light and the shadow coexisting to power the Pattern.

If the Creator knew that both halves were necessary, but could contain the evil half in a prison, while employing its nature to help drive the Wheel, then destroying the Dark One would not be a good thing. The victory of the Light must be content with sealing him in the best they can. This is why Rand was right to detroy the Choedan Kal at the end.

Defeating the Dark One means bottling him up good and tight, preferably in a way that is pure and perfect. Then eternity might be possible.
Wilson Grooms
1417. Planeswalker
Wetlandernw @1414

For old posters, that is too obvious. You three are definitely wordy. =)

Freelancer @1416

Yeah, Rand is stupid @2.


Leigh, is aCoS coming anytime soon?
Rahul Luhar
1418. Gerontius
Loony Theory: Perhaps Rand will kill the DO, and destroy the Wheel of Time, but not actually destroy the world. I.e., time becomes linear rather than circular.
Why its Loony: I don't think it is too likely, especially after the final scene of TGS, and also because this seems to be what the DO wants.
Helen Peters
1419. Helen
I'm up to 1136 now.

1136. Silvertip
Can I add to your comment please. And they didn't do a 'Salmon of Doubt' on us. If you don't know what that is, it's the half finished story Douglas Adams was writing at the time of his death. Published along with letters etc.

Going back to read some more, hopefully comment 1137 is not about the Salmon of doubt.
Maiane Bakroeva
1420. Isilel
Randalator:

I thought that we were told why Sheriam joined the BA - she asked too many questions and got a recruitment offer. Not having Verin's awesomeness she jumped at it, for survival and advancement. Hm... was her displeasure about Siuan making her MoN a lie, then?
But she was hardly a true believer and less than thrilled with the DO, the Chosen, etc. Nor did she expect immortality and palaces like some of her colleagues.

What seemed rather incongruous, though, was her regret about not becoming a Brown(!), when she never displayed any scholarly inclinations that I could see and the notion that she was on the top of the BA, one of the 3 people to know Alviarin's identity. To climb that far that quickly she would have had to be utterly brilliant and we had ample proof that she was anything but. In fact, she was one of the worst bumblers in the whole bumbling BA! I mean, look at her method of Hall's ter'angreal removal! Comes in and just takes them away? Really?

BTW - since Mesaana knew that one of the dream ter'angreal was out of reach, does Sheriam losing a finger mean that somebody besides Siuan squirreled one away, too?

Oh, and speaking of the mass BA escape - I imagine that they have some kind of general "abandon ship" signal. Some of the DF BA warders probably felt shock and terror through the bonds when the BAs were confronted and managed to pass the warning through other DFs.

And BTW - were any BAs captured during the Seanchan attack at the Tower, or did they all decamp before it started, apart from Katherine, whose task was apparently to ensure that as many AS got collared or killed as possible?
Was that Mesaana's meaning when she said that this time the AS would serve the Shadow - willingly or not? It is possible that most of them didn't yet return from wherever they were hiding when news of Eggs purge got out.

I imagine that Shadow's next goal will be to try to steal the Oath Rod.

One has to wonder how the BT would be cleansed without such a device, though.
Rob Munnelly
1421. RobMRobM
I was giving more thought to the relative losses Tower v. Seanchan in the Tower battle.

- Seanchan had 50 linked damane (which I assume to be a suldam/damane set) and lots of raken and tor'raken (more than 100).
- Egwene captured 10 damane herself; probably safe to assume that the rest of tower captured some but less than that - perhaps assume a total of 15 captured of the 50.
- Egwene's circles killed a whole bunch of damane and sul'dam based on the text of the battle. Query whether Fortuona's personal suldam/damane set she gave to the battle died or were captured. If so, even greater chance this will be seen as a substantial loss.
- Egwene's circles took out 33 tor'raken; rest of Tower definitely took out some (there are references to several other successful battle pockets) - let's assume 50 taken out in total.
- The tor-raken and raken shot down would cause death to the elite flyers who piloted them.
- The tor'raken and raken shot down likely included damane (inflating the damage totals above) or, alternatively, include WT channelers.

- On the flip side, WT have 40-plus channelers unaccounted for, with 25 or so being full sisters.
- Some, and probably more than some, of those channelers would have died before reaching Ebou Dar when the birds were shot down. Let's assume 20-30 made it back.
- A bunch of sisters, accepteds and novices died. I dont recall an estimate from text but, given surprise at Egwene's low loss totals, assume 25 to 50 died.

So...
- Seanchan tor'raken force lost nearly half of its forces, a very substantial and (for now) irreplaceable loss. This is a big deal given Iteralde's discussion of the importance of info through the air.
- Seanchan lost more damane than they got back.
- Seanchan has now officially made an enemy of the Tower and, likely (in their minds) exacerbated problems with the Dragon.
- Only offsetting benefits - some minor bloodletting in the Tower and, more importantly, likely will get travelling from Elaida or someone else. However, they potentially could have gotten that in near future from their ordinary course damane acquisition activities.
- Evaluation: goal of quick strike to inflict havoc on the Tower failed; loss of aerial intelligence gathering capability is substantial. Seanchan have just infuriated powerful enemies. Fortuona's fears going in have been realized

Flip side - Tower lost to death or taking 70-100 channelers - certainly a significant blow but given the hundreds of novices in the rebel camp and other sisters coming in from the Kin, far from a fatal one.

Rob
Captain Hammer
1422. Randalator
Isilel@1420

I thought that we were told why Sheriam joined the BA - she asked too many questions and got a recruitment offer. Not having Verin's awesomeness she jumped at it, for survival and advancement. Hm... was her displeasure about Siuan making her MoN a lie, then?
But she was hardly a true believer and less than thrilled with the DO, the Chosen, etc. Nor did she expect immortality and palaces like some of her colleagues.


I just re-read that chapter, and you're right, there is some kind of musing about her motivations. And it sounds part Verin-esque, part cold politicking. But that doesn't sound very Sheriam. We've never seen her being overly ambitious, spiteful or inquisitive.

I think the regret about asking questions is about her time in the BA. Her becoming too invested in the great scheming instead of her just "rising in White Tower politics" as she desired. Lust for power is the lowest common denominator for all Darkfriends. But since she never openly displayed that kind of power fetish I still want to know how it was that she went down that path...

What seemed rather incongruous, though, was her regret about not becoming a Brown(!), when she never displayed any scholarly inclinations that I could see and the notion that she was on the top of the BA, one of the 3 people to know Alviarin's identity.

I don't think that she literally regretted not being a Brown. That was just wishful thinking on her part to have been unambitious, secluded and thus never to have come in contact with the BA in the first place.

As for why she knew Alviarin: I think that's due to her role as Mistress of Novices. Through that position she is bound to know more BA than those organized in hearts. After all she will be the one to select the most promising candidates for recruitment. Which gives her high position in the BA without the need to be the master schemer extraordinaire and of course puts her outside the hearts because without Serhiam delegating BA recruiters would know more Black sisters than just those of their respective hearts.
john massey
1423. subwoofer
@AAS- yes, but those buttons are on the far end of my keyboard. They work remarkably similar to the scroll on my mouse. Slow. It is easier to grab the tab on the side and wail it up to the top. Or the nice "click of one key". Besides my dog has to reach wayyyy over to get it. She is not a fan.

Gahhh! As I type another post pops up!!!

Was thinking about Rand, Rodel etc. Rand was speculating with Bashere that Rodel may turn back and rejoin the war with the Seanchan. It may be a good thing. ForTuona is on the fence about an alliance with the Dragon. This may force her hand. Ny may be the one to bring peace to Arad Doman. In her desperation to find a way to get her husband additional support, she may parlay with Tuon. How Tuon would deal with a AS without the Dragon...

Or, Ny could be the one to approach the Borderland armies and give them the kick in the seat of the pants. According to Narishma:
"A Brderlander's place is to guard the border," Narishma said. "I was a cobbler's sone, and yet I was trained with the sword, spear, bow, axe, and sling. Even before joining the Asha'man, I could best four out of five trained southern soldiers in a duel. We live to defend. And yet they left. Now, of all times. With thirteen Aes Sedai." He glanced at her with those dark eyes. "I want to trust them. I know them for good people. But good people can do the wrong thing. Particularly when men who can channel are involved."
Maybe Ny could make a plea, not as AS but as the wife of the Uncrowned King of Malkieri. She would be on the same footing as the 13 AS as they would not have power, she would have her "well".

I also think that it is hubris on Caddy's part to assume that she has to teach Rand. Maybe it is a weave or to teach him to trust AS. But she does go about things the wrong way IMHO. As in Chapter 50, give the man some space and some freedom, and he may do some soul searching and reflecting and figure things out on his own, at least to the extent where he rediscovers who he was before all this began. It is a good thing.

Little woofer is complaining about typing again. Will give her a break :)

Woof™.
Joseph Blaidd
1424. SteelBlaidd
Blindillusion@1406

Using eternities like that is typical of Mormon religious speech. I couldn't tell you why we say it that way though.

Here are the Results of the lol captions.

Re Sheriam, if I remember correctly Moranie characterizes her in NS as a gossip and a bit catty, she's probably just as ambitious as Beonin just sneakier about it.
Leslie Annis
1425. Lannis
Re: Morgase being outed... I totally agree with Wetlander @ 1413 (any everyone else who's mentioned it) that this missing/off screen scene is probably a side-effect of the AMoL split--because really, such a reunion scene is definitely "on screen" worthy if only for the drama... I mean, c'mon!

I have a funny feeling that we'll be seeing a flashback scene of the meeting... probably starting with Perrin remembering when he saw the Whitecloaks approach (I may be mistaken, he may already have met up with them on screen, but I don't think so--though admittedly I felt like Perrin's POV was the only one that didn't have anything happen, and in the haste to devour the book, some of my memory is fuzzy due to quick digesting...). Galad will meet up with Perrin, and in Perrin's tent, Galad'll be shocked....

Galad: Dude, that's not a maidservant! That's my step-mom! A frakking QUEEN for Light's sakes!*
Perrin: Oh, so sorry... she never was a very good maid, perhaps that's why...
Faile: AHA! I knew there was something fishy about you, Maighdin, except my super-sneaky super-spies didn't have enough time to figure it out! If only they'd had another decade or two...

*See what I did there? ;)
Wilson Grooms
1426. demiandre
I read on a forum that Rand will use Callandor with 2 other person in order to fulfill the prophety about "three must become one", and that there will be an association of the One Power, i.e. Saidin and saidar, as well as the True Power (three aspect of the Power must become one). And some says that callandor amplifies the True Power as he amplifies the taint by not be buffered against the taint. But as far as I recall, the taint is not the True Power no? And the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal are merely device for improving the amount of power we can use or have special uses. So do they act with the True Power as they do with the One Power?
Captain Hammer
1427. Randalator
Lannis@1425

I may be mistaken, he may already have met up with them on screen, but I don't think so

Well he kinda has met with them on screen. If you count Rand's Technicolor Ta'veren-O-Vision, that is...
Leslie Annis
1428. Lannis
@ Randalator... yeah, I don't count that... I want to see a fleshed-out scene with miscommunication and shocking revelations of epic proportions!

Technicolor Ta'veren-O-Vision--I like that! :)
Ben Goodman
1429. goodben
@ Freelancer 1250-something

Graendal's POV says that her agents keep her apprised of Mesaana's activities, not that they'd identified her. From Alviarin's POV in previous books, the BA doesn't know who she is. Any identification of her is guesswork on Graendal's or her agent's part. This of course would be colored by their assumptions.

Following Egwene's BA purge, it's pretty apparent that Mesaana cannot be hiding as an Aes Sedai if she's still in the Tower. The Oath Rod works on Forsaken as well as anyone else.
Wilson Grooms
1430. AndrewB
Did anybody else notice that when Mat and company rode into Hinderstrap, he had 5 Band soldiers? Two went with him to guard his money chest. The three others went with the Aes Sedai. However, there is no further mention of what happened to these 3 soldiers. Did the soldiers die or was that an editing snafu?

Any thought?

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
R B
1431. MasterAlThor
Ok the pattern is getting all messed up again cause you guys can't quite talking about balefire.

My screen shows 1417 to 1421 with squished text and half written post.

Break it, Break it, Break it.....Shut up you. We will not break Tor's post, but maybe they could do something.


Wetlandernw....

Didn't Jordan say that we will not see any scenes from Seanchan in the last books? I remember reading that on Wotmania.

As for the wordyness of Wetlandernw, Freelancer and Subwoofer.

We all bow before your epic posting skillz.

Freelancer...

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."
Moridin gave no reaction. He was still staring at the flames. "We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."


Put me in the camp that says if Rand were to destroy the DO (not possible) it would be bad for Team Light. I envision it like this. You kill a god you must take its place. Order does not allow for there to be infinite good or evil.

Moridin knows about the multiple turnings because he was a philosopher in AoL. Not just a philosopher but the philosopher of his age. A friend of mine came up with a theory that the DO is just a concept not really a force and that Moridin has everyone fooled. It was Ishy who explained what it was that Lanfear and Bowhathisname did. Now I know that there are mile wide holes in this theory like what about the DO voice at SG and were did superfade come from? But the arguement that the DO could be a concept rather than a force of evil is interesting.

Let's see what we can do with it.

Well off to class. See youse anon.
eric s
1432. silverprl1
There is more character development, introspection, and growth in this book than the previous 11. It is great to have the story being finished by BS. Thank you.
Pablo Defendini
1433. pablodefendini
@Aye Aye Sedai #431

Currently there are no plans for an errata page—that's entirely up to Team Jordan. I, however, am making note of any errors in the new eBook editions, since I can change those pretty quickly.

@Aye Aye Sedai #569, GatheringStorm #820, @Eswana #835, @forkroot #1251, @kab1 #1260
The reason the site broke before had to do with bad database queries/memory allocations, not because you guys broke it! We corrected the problem, so things should be going smoothly.

For the time being we have no plans to split off this thread. But we're looking into how to handle it—I know slogging through 1K+ comments is a pain!

[p]

**lalalalareadingeyeoftheworldforthefirsttimenospoilerslalalala**
Barry T
1434. blindillusion
RE: Eternity - I wasn't really trying to apply the word to the WoT and what Moridin said. In his eyes he may just see the turnings of the Wheel as "eternities".

I just found it amusing that someone would plural the word "eternity". To me it's a concept that cannot be pluralized. It'd be like saying the "infinities".

How could there be two+ of something that never began and will never end but is linear, not circular?
Leslie Annis
1435. Lannis
@ Pablo... Hi! ::waves:: Enjoy The Eye of the World! S'good. But then, we're all biased on this post, aren't we? :)
James Jones
1436. jamesedjones
1433 Pablo

That's Awesome!

I'm sure any number of commentors on this reread would have loved the opportunity to read the series, and get to fix stuff on their first time through.

Unfortunately, you might have just invited about 20K+ emails from the folks here who are just sure that a particular word should have been capitalized or italicized.

Good luck with that! :D
Barry T
1437. blindillusion
@ the thought of pablodefendini@1433 reading tEotW for the first time...

Hmm, can any of you imagine what it'd be like to be just now starting the series?

Granted, it'd be sad to of missed the long ride to the present, but imagine going through the excitement the next few years will bring without all those years of waiting.

Eh, I'm still happy I started the WoT back in the day.
Sean Banawnie
1438. Seanie
blind:

when he says eternities, I think of all the alternate universes that Rand has visited from the stones, T'Ar etc. Each has a seperate 'eternity'
to me.......just my $.02

pablo: good for you.....hope you have some spare Time
Rob Munnelly
1439. RobMRobM
@1437 - As longtime participants in the re-read know, I was a relative newcomer to the series, having started only last August (August 2008 --after my friend, who was a fan from outset, finally beat down my resistance and got me going on it - damn those awful Darryl Sweet covers that led me to dismiss the books for so long).

It was exciting and fun to read the entire series in little over a month, do my first re-read, and then get hooked into Leigh's time sucking re-read of doom almost from the first post while waiting for TGS.

Rob
Lee VanDyke
1440. Cloric
Just a quick comment on Rand's use of the TP.

Like Leigh, I literally had to put my book down and walk around my apartment for a few minutes to calm down, control my breathing, not scream at my book and wake the neighbors, etc.

Then, sometime later I figured out that his ability to access the TP from the DO may actually be a GOOD thing.

Think about LTT's brief explanation of the Sealing, IIRC he said that in order to patch the hole, the hundred companions had to touch it DIRECTLY with Saidin, which is what allowed the taint to appear (Guess the women not taking part wasn't a bad idea after all). but NOW, Rand can break the seals (clear away the Rubble) and maybe us the TP to seal the whole, since that's most likely what the Prison is formed from anyway.
Matthew Smith
1441. blocksmith
MAT @1275

I know the 80's were rough on the Pistons, but c'mon...Isiah's most recent actions must have softened you a little on the Celts, right? And there is no defending Lamb-beer. Course if it's recent history...blame McHale...he made that ridiculous trade. Wait, just saw what I typed and Ok, in reading that, I guess your dislike for the Celtics is understandable.

Wetlandernw@1310

I'm convinced the new bunker is in Canada...all the blight discussion is a red herring.

Laurel4amyrlin@1316

I guess that means Evanellein is not Messana? Damn...there goes one theory.

Brownieb@1323

I always thought it was Liandrin that freed Padan Fain.

Scrodinger@1375

I believe you are correct in your assessment of Tuon's handling of Beslan...a combination of accepting the people here (and a, I believe, well liked ruler) and recognizing the need to use some of what was in place to effect the easiest transition of power.

MAT@1376

I prefer..."I'm Morgan Freeman and I built the Batmobile."

Wetlandernw@1397

Just behind the giant bottle of Maker's...yep, here it is (dusting off bottle) the good stuff. 25-year old Macallan, just for you. Best served neat with one drop of water to bring out the aroma. Grab a small glass with cool water to clean the palate in between sips.

RobmRobm@1421

Nice assessment on the numbers from the WT raid. I went through a similar exercise and came out in the same range so I think you are in the ball park

One thing I would add to the reasons why the raid was, ultimately, a failure, is that it served to effectively galvanize the AS (some of whom were inclined prior to the raid to dismiss the Seanchan) to the threat they represented and re-unite the WT.

Hatecaddy and all @various

There have only been two significant characters in the series that I hated...Eamon Valda and Jaichim Carridin. Sure, some have been annoying, frustrating, even repugnantly evil (see Padan Fain, all the Forsaken, numerous DFs) but those two I could not stand. They were well written, but awful to behold. I did not see an issue with how Tuon was written as being out of character for what she was in KOD, but we all have our own opinions, hence why I stated the above.
Birgit
1442. birgit
“Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword”

Rand uses his sword to convince the Empress that they should split the land between them.

Some of the DF BA warders probably felt shock and terror through the bonds when the BAs were confronted and managed to pass the warning through other DFs.

Eg captured AS and Warders together.
John Pigott
1443. AbEnd
When I first saw the Cover, I assumed Rand was out there yelling "Curse you, Red Baron!" at some ne'er do well.

And then when I read the actual scene, I was reminded of Mike Gundy's "I'm a Man!" tirade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoMmbUmKN0E).

"Hey, you bubbles of evil, don't attack no houses, attack me 'cause I'm the Man"

Other than that, many moments of awesome
Bill Reamy
1444. BillinHI
Pablo: You need to start a blog on your first read of WoT! I have been trying to convince my wife to read the series and something like that would be great for her (and any others who want to start now).

IMO though, you should start with New Spring (if you haven't read it already). I know that isn't the published order, but to my mind, it's the true beginning of the epic. ..... Oh, wait...there are no beginnings to the Wheel of Time, but it would be a beginning ... the best IMHO.
Wilson Grooms
1445. Silvertip
@1444 BillinHI: I'm afraid I can't agree with you on recommending that new readers start with New Spring. For me, one of the best things about the first time through tEOtW was the slow rollout of, for example, the concepts of Aes Sedai and warders ... basically from Rand's POV, we start out with them as semi-legendary beings of unknown purpose and many dark associations, and gradually circle in on a deeper understanding through the first book and part of the second. Same with trollocs and myrddraal: The initial description of the attack on the al'Thor farm is so shocking precisely because we don't know exactly what's going on. Even the properties of the OP and channeling itself, I think, fit this pattern. In NS, these and many other aspects of the world of WoT are assumed, and thus not revealed in nearly as dramatic a fashion. New Spring (especially in the inflated novel version) is essentially backstory. There's a reason why, say, graphic novels never begin with the characters' backstories, but circle back to them after we've been drawn into the drama.

Obviously different people will see things differently, but for my money, volume 1 is still the place to recommend that new readers start.
Captain Hammer
1446. Randalator
browniesb@1323

What happened to Leanne in the attack on the tower—did I miss something.

She was still imprisoned deep underground when the Seanchan attacked. She more or less missed the whole thing...

Is anyone else now wondering if Verin was the mysterious Sedai who helped Fain escape at the start of TGH?

As per the TOR Q&A it was Ingtar and a Fade who released Fain. No Aes Sedai involved...


Silvertip@1445

You're absolutely right. Starting with New Spring might be an option for those who have already read the series at least once. But a new reader would miss the entire character- and world-building that is essential both for fully understanding and appreciating the events of New Spring.

New Spring clearly is NOT the starting point for the narrative. That is TEotW which, thus, should be read first.
Henry Loose
1447. schrodinger
The DO seems to be the kind of evil that needs to be destroyed... the whole unmaking of the pattern cannot be a good thing for team light. Instead of just re-establishing a balance between the DO and the Pattern, Team Light should just replace him (i don't know how) with a "lesser" evil (lesser in the sense that it wants to rule the pattern, not destroy it), such as Fain (I know somewhere in the masses of posts on one of the pre-released parts that someone suggested throwing fain into a vacuole and that would somehow make him into a new DO (but DO "lite").

please feel free to tear this theory apart. :-)

edit: my point being that the pattern must be in balance, but the DO is outside of the pattern... so just get rid of him and the evil that works within the pattern (Fain, etc.) will be enough for it to be in balance.
Barry T
1448. blindillusion
Schrodinger@1447

I don't think Fain would exactly fit the bill for this theory of yours. Fain might actually be worse than the DO we already have.

Perhaps any of the surviving Forsaken with the exception of Moirdin. Let's say Moghedien. Even better, Cyndane stuck like John Cusack via the end of Being John Malkovich.
Henry Loose
1449. schrodinger
blindillusion@1448

how would someone who uses the shadow's techniques be worse than the shadow itself? like I said, DO "lite"
Wilson Grooms
1450. wannabecritic
I wanted to inject some of my own thoughts into the Moridin conversation.

Part of the conversation between Rand and Moridin ("Is that what happened, Elan? Did you lose hope?" Not the exact wording, but you know the part) Leads me to believe that Moridin/Ishamael/Elan Morin Tedronai had his own "What use is saving the world?" moment, but instead of the solution coming to him like it did to Rand he just gave up.

Another theory, though it conflicts with the canon of how the wheel spun out the dragon, is that Elan was the hero in a past age, and, blessed/cursed with his memories from that age a la Lews Therin/Rand, decided it wasn't worth it to go through that over and over again.


Also, on a different note, Rand should be convincing the other Forsaken to join him, as you remember Elan so elequently explained that they were all fools who would recieve no rewards form the Dark One, as remaking the Pattern in his image would destroy all life anyways.
Crystal McMillan
1451. CDragon27
Verin Rocks! she was always one of my favorites and if she had to go then damn, the girl went with style!
Rand's attack on Min, I also had to put the book down and step away. I was so horrified at how he broke that collar, and I really thought that was going to be the end of Min(my favorite of the 3 girl-friends)
Rand's reunion with Tam made me cry, I was so horrified and scared of what poor Rand has become.
Thank goodness he reached bottom and bounced.
but finally I have to give some love to the Band of the Hand and the arguement about the poor great-aunt. I laughed out loud, and I can't remember ever doing that with a Wheel of Time book.
Barry T
1452. blindillusion
schrodinger@1449

I'd have to say Fain is completely insane and obsessed with killing the Savior. At least the DO is only trying to fulfill its purpose…namely the destruction of the Wheel. =)

As for why I say one of the Forsaken? They all want to be immortal. I say given them the chance. Why do I say Cyndane? Well, as Lanfear she wanted to usurp the DO anyway. Why do I say let her have the role but in a situation like John Cusack via the end of Being John Malkovich? Because I think it would be a fitting end for her.

EDIT: hmm, I just realized I've somewhat usurped an interesting theory. I'm sorry schrodinger. I'm gonna go try to pull my foot out of my mouth.
Captain Hammer
1453. Randalator
CDragon27@1451

I have to give some love to the Band of the Hand and the arguement about the poor great-aunt. I laughed out loud, and I can't remember ever doing that with a Wheel of Time book.

I've done that several times before. But agreed, all slightly-off-ishness of Mat's character aside, him overcompensating for the lack of preparation in Hinderstap, and his soldier's reaction towards it, is hilarious without end...
Roger Powell
1454. forkroot
blocksmith@1441
Just behind the giant bottle of Maker's...yep, here it is (dusting off bottle) the good stuff. 25-year old Macallan, just for you. Best served neat with one drop of water to bring out the aroma. Grab a small glass with cool water to clean the palate in between sips.
You sir, know how to imbibe good scotch correctly.

Me? I had never cared for the stuff (because I thought Chivas was supposed to be "good"). Then one day I was in Edinburgh and toured the Scotch Whiskey institute, followed by some tasting lessons.

Really surprised the wife when I arrived home from the UK with a bottle of 25-yr Balvenie under my arm (surely do love duty-free shops). Told her that the Chivas should be put in the pantry and labeled "cooking whiskey"!

And in order to relate all of the above to WoT: Anyone noticed that there doesn't seem to be any hard liquor in Randland? Just ale and wine, unless I'm missing a reference somewhere.

Silvertip@1445
Strongly agree with you, for exactly the reasons you stated. I have always encouraged WoT newbies to start with TEoTW. NS is good after LOC, even though it was published after ACoS IIRC. Actually it is good to read it before ACoS because Cadsuane's arrival on scene goes a little smoother IMO.
T C
1455. Freelancer
RobMRobM@1421

Nice breakdown. I'd add that the Seanchan attack facilitated the reunification of the Tower in a massive way:
- No more Elaida
- Many sisters witnessed Egwene opening up that full case of bad on their enemies
- Ajah heads buy Egwene as a true Amyrlin
- Rebels come home
- BA gets purged
- Tower residents, in spite of any battle losses, multiplied well over 5 times, perhaps approaching 8 times, with arrival of rebels and more than 1,000 novices

The White Tower just became more formidable than at any time in the past five hundred years, at least.


Lannis@1425

No, Perrin's crowd has not met up with the Whitecloaks on-screen yet, you're correct about that. I do believe that there is much more than the dramatic aspect involved in this necessary scene, however.

One thought that you reminded me of with your humorous Perrin/Galad/Faile scene. While Faile and Perrin have never met nor seen Morgase before, can we suppose that all of those Cairhienin nobles in Cha'Faile never recognize her? Can people raised in Daes Dae'mar really not know the appearance of the most influential ruler in their area of the world? One with many ties to their own nation? They really are useless idiots.


goodben@1429

You'll have to explain to me how someone (Graendal's agents) can be clear about a person's activites, but not their personage. That's a deep stretch. About the Oath Rod, Egwene has mused before that the forsaken may know how to get around it. I don't know about that, but I know that Brandon has already stated that Mesaana is still a sister in the Tower. I'll see if I can squeeze a bit more from him this Sunday.


MasterAlThor@1431

Yes, it was said that there would be no scenes on Seanchan soil.

While my personal philosophy doesn't demand that there be evil to balance good, since evil is always merely a corruption of good, I think that the cosmology of this story demands it. The Dark One is not, however, a god. He is more than a concept, he is a createdsentient entity, but the purpose of his existence was always to provide the "equal and opposite" energy to drive the Pattern. And, it was Beidomon with Mierin.


silverprl1@1432

Your remark could be read two distinctly different ways. If I read it as you intended, I believe that you improperly discredit Jordan with your remark. The character growth, development, introspection was intended for this stage of the story all along, it wasn't a decision on Brandon's part. I understand the impression of such due to the change of authors, but that is incidental to what was an already established outline of events. If, on the other hand, you were simply saying you were glad that Brandon took up the baton and let us finally get to this part of the saga, then never mind, and I too am quite grateful to have the story finished, and finished well.


pablo@1433

Heya Pablo! Welcome to the insanity. BTW, Narg did it.


blocksmith@1441

You mean to say that the 80's Lakers were rough on the Pistons. And on the Celtics, the Bulls, and whoever got in their way.


BillinHI@1444

Along with Silvertip, I believe it's best to start with TEotW. The Tolkienesque introduction to the world, and the slow reveals about various aspects are too special to be undermined by New Spring. I'd wait until after TDR at least before reading the prequel.


schrodinger@1447

I could hope that Jordan wouldn't have crafted such a "machined" solution. No human soul could serve as a replacement for the function of the Dark One. But, we'll all RAFO.


Randalator@1453

BTW, a Stormleader Report includes Brandon answering the difference in Mat's character, and that it was fully intentional, not because he doesn't understand Mat. So everybody up off the Creator's stand-in! Read and learn.
Rob Munnelly
1458. RobMRobM
Free - great minds think alike.

Actually, the more egregious slip up is that the Cha Faile folk should recognize Breanne Taborwin, who is a Carheinian noble (on screen in the party scene in TGH) and sister/niece/daughter to Lord Dobraine.
Captain Hammer
1459. Randalator
re: Oosquai

Forkroot also forgot Brandy. It's not only the Aiel who love themselves some high octane stuff...
Wilson Grooms
1460. Tektonica
People we’re happy are gone and don’t care how they left:

Semirhage- liked her exit! Thought it was one of Cads better moments when she figured out that humiliation was the key to getting to Semi. The scene with the Sad necklace/Min strangling/TruePower use was truly frightening. I agree with Silvertip #577 that Semi was set up by Moridan to eliminate her and to get Rand to use the TP and start sliding toward the DO. (He also told Rand about balefire to eliminate his rivals and sow more chaos in the pattern.)

Graendal- really didn’t like her and thought Rand’s balefiring of the whole palace was efficient, smart tactically and advanced his slipping into madness/darkness plot arc. Cold, so cold.

Elaida- One of my all time least favorite characters. An arrogant shrew. Hope she is permanently gone, but she’ll probably rear her snotty head again at Tarmin Gaidan….hopefully fully cowed and leashed and blasting her way to redemption.

Masema- This whole plot line was a drag and the waste of practically a whole book! Good riddance and thank you Faile.

People we’d like to see leave:

Cadsuane- Arrogance personified. If she wants Rand to be in touch with his feelings, why doesn’t she SAY so? All the behind the scenes machinations and civility demands are just infuriating….to Rand and me! I’d want to defy her too! She’s old and supposedly wise, but so self-involved (like most Aes Sedai) that she can’t “read” people. She treats them like kids and manipulates them. As Min says, “Why can’t we just help Rand instead of trying to control him.”

Faile- A completely nutty woman. I don’t understand her at all and her entire plot line with Perrin and the Shaido was just a bore.

Seafolk- More irritating people who don’t communicate and keep secrets.

People we’ll miss:

Verin- Had her pegged from the moment she told Rand that “Moraine sent her” on the way to Carhein?, way back in Book 2-3? BA….But so deliciously sneaky and smart. Not a one dimensional Evil Person. Loved her redemption with Egs and can’t wait to see what’s in all those letters! Helen #515 had the letter/death time table worked out perfectly. Amalisa #576 has a great Verin expose’.

People that are improving:

Nynaeve- She used to drive me bonkers, but she was awesome as a true friend to Rand (and standing up for Mat to Tuon). Thank you Brandon for less braid pulling and dress smoothing. She has a good character growth arc too. She’s learning to deal with Cads and is so brave about Lan. But her continued friendship/support of Rand was wonderful and put her very high on my list of great characters.

Rand- He was my favorite character for many of the early books, but then he became very one-dimensional. Brandon really let us inside his head, and did a great job of showing us his craziness/darkness/anger/, essentially, Fear. My heart bled for him. The resolution in the final chapter was so moving. The integration of LTT’s memories when he realized that Ilyena has had a chance to live again, finding his raison d’etre, the sun breaking through….all good. And yeah Tam for talking straight sense to him and then yelling at Cadsuane!

People we’d like to see improve:

Mat- my favorite bad boy! Love him. And I loved his confusion about himself, now that he’s married, gulp, a prince, double gulp and has agreed to go to the Tower of Genji. I thought what others saw as a different Mat, was really more like the old Mat, pre-Tuon, with the Band, plus his new confusion. I could’ve done without Hinderstap, a pointless Evil bubble. Really Mat’s whole appearance here could’ve been in one chapter. I wish he’d moved forward more, maybe have gotten to Caemlyn and was preparing for Genji. Did love his “alias descriptions” for the guys, LOL. What’s in Verin’s letter to him?????

Perrin- Like the Wolf/GoldenEyes thing, but with Faile, he’s an idiot…of course she’s insane and could make anyone look like an idiot. The whole Shaido/Masema/Seanchan BOOK was a bore for me. He needs to be reunited with Rand soon, please. Like Isilel said #528, why didn’t we get the good stuff, like the Morgase reveal and meeting up with Whitecloaks instead of more of his “pondering”.

Min- There, but not there in this book. I really like her…smart, normal, loyal, in love. More Min please.

Avienda- Getting better. I’m looking forward to her return as a WO and hope we get to see some of her visions in the columns. Hope she and Min get close too in the next book so the three “wives” can go into the climactic book in a untied front with Rand.

Elayne- Can the pregnancy just be over, please. Can Morgase return and calm Gwayn down, please. (Slap him upside the head, please.) Can our main character/heroes get back together please.

Gawyn- Oh ug. Why oh why does he persist with the I Hate Rand stuff? Egs told him he didn’t kill her. So has everyone else. Wait until he finds out his sister, The Queen, has bonded him, is having his babies and wants to marry him! Wait til he finds out he’s Galad’s half brother! Really can’t wait for this reveal.

Tuon-Fortuona-Hate the new long name. She’s strong and smart and rigid. I do hope being a sul’dam and her time with Mat softens her views on collaring all channelers. The world needs wisdoms and needs the channelers to reproduce too, if they want to continue to have them. I don’t think Rand will Treat with her until she gives up on collaring and property (slavery). Will that happen? Can Mat help here?

MIA:
Fain: Another yucky plotline. Hope it gets resolved quickly in the next book.
Lioal: Heart Lioal. Miss him. Hope he’s had enough honeymoon time in the stedding to be ready for the Last Battle and to finish his book! Bring back Lioal!
Lan: Awesome man. Will he survive? Will Nynaeve ever get his Bond? Has he gathered an army up there?

Tune in next year for the answers to these and other burning questions!

More to follow on various plot lines. This is just too long. I'm through the comments to #600...back to work!
T C
1461. Freelancer
Randalator@1459

I was going to mention the Brandy from Winternight, but there were two reasons not to.

1) After Birgit identified me as the most verbosest commentor, I couldn't miss the chance to send a 1-word comment.

2) Giving only a partial answer also lowers my guru factor.

A two-fer, and it isn't Tuesday.
Tess Laird
1462. thewindrose
Forkroot - Osqui - I know spelling is wrong.

Edit - See what happens if you don't refresh for awhile!
Noneo Yourbusiness
1463. Longtimefan
@ Freelancer 1455 about Morgase invisiblity syndrome.

I think there are a few factors that play with people being able to identify Royal Morgase which obscure the identity of servant Madghin.

One would be the role. As much as she may still look like herself it has been referenced in the books that nobility cast few glances at servants so taking a good look at one to see the similarities between a poor maid and a former queen is not inherent to thier titled nature.

Two would be the presentation. Mogase the Queen had many visual enhancements available to her that Madghin the maid does not. Hair and make up being formost amongst them. In the escape from the palace and the grip of Rahivn she reveals to the reader how she had visited amongst the people with some lanky hair and soot stained cheeks.

That was just minutes (maybe a few hours) after being bathed and groomed and painted as a public figure often would be. It is much like sighting a female celebrity of a certain age out buying groceries. They are not as "enhanced" as they would be for "show". Still beautiful and still gracious (or brusk depending on the person) but not as easily recognizable.

It is a bit of a streach to think that no one has recognized Morgase yet but it is not unbeliveable.

Galad would know her in any guise because of the daily familiarity that he would have.

That however is not just facial regognition but movemnet and mannerisms that are so subtle to those who would see her only in an audience but be so much a part of her identity to people who saw her every day in different situations.

I have been able to pick family members out of a crowd just by the top of thier head bobbing along in the pattern of their stride. Then again I am tall enough to see over most crowds. I guess it would not work so well for people under 5'10"
Thomas Keith
1464. insectoid
Free @1461: I'm probably the least verbosest (Is that a word?) commenter, so... Guru!

Shouldn't there be a new post by now? *twitch*

Is there any oosquai in the bunker?
Rob Munnelly
1465. RobMRobM
@1463 - I'm still betting that Tam recognizes her even before Galad shows up. Still hoping that they'll end up together (and Tam's evident pleasure in talking about her gives me some hope....) Rob
Wilson Grooms
1466. cps2195
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but TGS is #1 on the NYT bestseller list.


Congrats to BS for his first #1.
Roger Powell
1467. forkroot
OK, OK ... points to Freelancer for getting there first. Since there is no oosquai in this age (an age long past, an age yet to come) I will do my penance tonight with ouzo. Close enough?

Tektonica - good to hear from you, but a minor quibble: Verin needed no redemption. Wetlandernw nailed it when she explained that Verin has always been on the side of the light, BA-mole activity notwithstanding.

What has become clear is that there are all kinds of darkfriends, some more and some less committed to the DO (and some not at all, like Verin.) Sheriam appears to be a good example of a somewhat indifferent darkfriend. She certainly could have done much more damage to Egwene's cause had she been a virulent darkfriend.
Rob Munnelly
1468. RobMRobM
One quick thought - with Morgase and Galad in the house, lots of reasons for Perrin to head towards Camelyn where, low and behold, Mat is there at the same time. We might actually get a short Two Rivers reunion before Mat heads off to storm the castle (I mean the Tower).

Note to all - we're definitely going to get the full on-screen Perrin-Galad-Morgase-Berelain-Tam interaction in ToM, as well as Mat's dragon building activities in Camelyn.
Don Barkauskas
1469. bad_platypus
forkroot @1467:
Verin needed no redemption. Wetlandernw nailed it when she explained that Verin has always been on the side of the light, BA-mole activity notwithstanding.
From Verin's encounter with Egwene, it's pretty clear (to me, anyway) that she (Verin) felt she needed redemption for the actions she'd been forced to take to maintain her cover while in the BA. I suppose you could argue that the 70-year mission that ended with Verin giving Egwene the list of BA was her redemption, but IMHO Verin didn't see it that way.
James Jones
1470. jamesedjones
1455 Freelancer
BTW, a Stormleader Report includes Brandon answering the difference in Mat's character, and that it was fully intentional, not because he doesn't understand Mat.
I dunno, Freelancer. Saying that Mat could not "...have lived through the events in his plotline at the end of Knife of Dreams and not come out a changed man," sounds defensive. It's an explanation for why this is not the Mat we all knew and loved.

Now, I've got no way of knowing if RJ would have written Mat in exactly the same way. He might have. And BS writing is above and beyond anything we have a right to expect as fans. So, we can't make the call if Mat's changes are right or wrong. But they are clearly unpopular with a number of fans, especially the ones that peg Mat as their favorite. This new Mat is a big improvement for some, and a big loss for others.

I just know that from the moment he woke up in the WT, Mat has been my all time favorite POV. Unfortuonately, that is no longer the case. And... I'm honestly not sure if any other character is worthy of that #1 slot.
T C
1471. Freelancer
Longtimefan@1463

You're right, of course. I know those things, but there's a difference between wandering among a crowd of commoners who wouldn't expect to see her, who would automatically discount a moment's recognition as coincidental given her "guise", and folks who probably have encountered at least her image numerous times if not herself, and are now camped together for several weeks. All I'm saying.

As for picking folks out of a crowd, I definitely know what you mean. My wife and I worked out a trick for us to find each other when my aircaft carrier would return home after many months. I'd be among the hundreds of white-uniformed squids manning the rails, but I'd make sure to be in the same general zone of the ship. Then as soon as we were free to "relax" from a posture of attention, most guys would wave their arms around wildly. At 6'4", and with long arms, I'd just stretch one hand straight up as high as I could, which is much higher than most. Within three seconds, someone in the crowd below would go berserk, and that would be her. Worked every time.


RobMRobM@1463

Not sure Tam recognized her, but his comments about her seem less to be personal pleasure, and more to be general gladness that his queen isn't dead. He chose to live in Andor after his time in the Illian army for a reason, and I suspect it is his favorable opinion of how Andor is ruled. He's a queen's man.


insectoid@1464

Alright, you, I'll see you Sunday. I'll have your "Guru" in a bag full of TGS, Warbreaker, and Elantris to thump you with, if you aren't hiding behind your mom. ;-)
James Jones
1472. jamesedjones
1471 Freelancer
At 6'4", and with long arms, I'd just stretch one hand straight up as high as I could, which is much higher than most. Within three seconds, someone in the crowd below would go berserk, and that would be her.
ROFL!

I gotta wonder about all the other sweethearts in the crowd not going berserk. :D
Alice A
1473. Wetlandernw
MasterAlThor @ 1431 - Didn't Jordan say that we will not see any scenes from Seanchan in the last books? Hmmm. I can't prove that one way or the other until I have time to do some more research. I never got all the way through wotmania once, much less thoroughly, before they shut it down, so I'm a little fuzzy on what was there. I'll look around and see what I can find. If he said that, I can only say that Towers of Midnight is kind of a strange choice of names, given the origins. OTOH, Freelancer says it's there, so I believe him. May still go look it up later, just to see the exact wording. (Free - can you tell me where to look?) Still leaves me wondering about the title, though. RAFO, I guess. (Unless I get to the book signing in Seattle and have a chance to ask something about it.)

Tektonica @ 1460 - ...why didn’t we get the good stuff, like the Morgase reveal and meeting up with Whitecloaks instead of more of his “pondering”. Because all the good stuff was moved to the next book. As I understand it, Brandon/Harriet/Tom agreed that this book would follow two of the major arcs, with the other two in the next book. Putting little bits of the "good stuff" in this book would detract from the effectiveness of the storylines in the next book. We needed some Mat/Perrin stuff in this book, partly to avoid the "Where was he???" wailing that happened over a couple of other books, but they very carefully pulled ALL of the MOAs and other significant elements of the Mat and Perrin arcs out of this book so as to make the next book just as awesome as this.

Then again, I liked what he did with Perrin in this book, and I can easily see it as necessary movement (growth) as well as set-up for the next book. Perrin went down some pretty dark paths recently, but in this book he gets to the point of evaluating things more objectively than he's been able to for a long time. I found it a healthy time of reflection for him, and I expect it to be useful in getting to where he needs to be at the beginning of ToM. So IMHO, Perrin's scenes served a dual purpose of giving him screen time and getting him through the "boring" introspection and set up for coming awesomeness.

Oh, and same sort of thing goes for Mat. Use his scenes for a combo of screentime and setup. Expect the big stuff in the next book.
Matthew Smith
1474. blocksmith
Forkroot@1454

I am so jealous!!! Balvenie double wood (12-year) is my favorite scotch years vs.$. My trip to Edinburgh and that same Heritage Museum of Scotch Whiskey (or whatever that title is) was incredible. I also came home many bottles heavier and many dollars err pounds lighter. On that note, where in Randland would you put a good Links-style course? I'm thinking Illian near the Sea of Storms.

Freelancer@1255

Thanks for the post of BrS's comments regarding Mat. Confirms most of what the commenters here thought. To parrot what Wetlandernw said...if it made through BrS, Harriet, Maria, and Alan (it is Maria and Alan that also edit, correct?)...it must be right.
Matthew Smith
1475. blocksmith
Wetlandernw@1473

My opinion on the TOM title was some reference to towers we know at just before TG (i.e, just before the stroke of midnight). I thought, maybe black tower/white tower, maybe Tower of Ghenjei/Shayol Ghul? Some other combination, all of the above? After some research and realizing that the Towers of Midnight are physically a place in the Seanchan Empire, I guess all bets are off.
T C
1476. Freelancer
Wetlandernw@1473

Hmm, I'm beginning to think that I simply accepted another's comment regarding that business, as I can't find it now either. Well, an easy enough question to ask of Brandon on Sunday if I'm allowed.

To me, "Towers of Midnight" definitely brings a Tolkienesque "The Two Towers" flavor to it. As with blocksmith, I had presumed that the major plot arcs would include the Black Tower Throwdown and the Tower of Ghenjei Moiraine Rescue, without considering the name connection in Seandar.

In fact, I'd be happy to bring questions from the crowd, again if it's allowed and there's time. Be advised, I'll be double-checking the Dragonmount blogs to make sure I don't ask anything already answered by Brandon elsewhere. Time is too valuable if the information is already available.

So far, I have:

1. Can it be confirmed from what we already know that Mesaana is disguised as an Aes Sedai? (He has already stated that she's still in the Tower following the Seanchan attack, and I think he said as a sister, but I'll try to pin it down)

2. Does the title "Towers of Midnight" indicate that some portion of that volume will take place on Seanchan soil?

Bring 'em on.
Don Barkauskas
1477. bad_platypus
@1473, 1476
Here is the quote you're probably remembering:
There are no plans to visit Seanchan in any greater extent than it already has been visited, and there are not going to be any visits to Shara either.
Source: East of the Sun fantasy convention, Stockholm, Sweden the 16-18 of June 1995.
So it's second-hand information from a con that was a decade-and-a-half ago. :-)
craig thrift
1478. gagecreedlives
I will have to go double check as well but I thought RJ's original quote was that Rand wasnt going back to Seanchan.

I was thinking however that the Towers of Midnight might relate to the Black Tower and possibly Moridin's palace.
Rob Munnelly
1479. RobMRobM
@1474. I'd put the course on Toman Head near Falme. West coast, just like Ballybunion in Kerry (which I played a few years ago). R
T C
1480. Freelancer
Hmm, also sounds like Cypress Point. Well, that's nothing like a links course, but Monterey could pass for Toman Head terrain-wise. That would make Carmel the equivalent of Falme.
Alice A
1481. Wetlandernw
bad platypus @1477 - Yup, that was about the best quote I could find, too. Also this one, no more specific really, dated November 1977:
Kate from State College PA: In a previous statement I believe you had basically said that the action of the series would take place in the lands known to Rand and his friends, i.e., not Shara or Seanchan and yet the new book has a lot of stuff about those lands--have you changed your mind? Is action in either of these two lands a possibility now?

RJ: No. Except for the possible occasional divergence, like for Rand's excursions to Seanchan when he chased after Aviendha. I was willing to put as much as I did into the guide because I will not be using those things in the books in the same way that I used Kandor or Saldaea.
So that leaves us... about where we were before. Its hard to believe they'd choose the title without some thought of the Seanchan location of the same name, but also hard to see what about that location could be so significant to the upcoming book that they'd use it for the title.
Ron Garrison
1482. Man-0-Manetheran
And She shall hence be known as Verin - The Black Mole

Whew! Lots of us finished up over the weekend I see. Awesome of awesomness. KoD was terrific in that many of the plot threads were completed, and TGS sped up the pace.

Enjoyed the book immensely, but at Forkroot (@346) noted: "Modern idioms sneaked into the text ('Do that math')...I think BS is less aware of what is 'current jargon' because he is young and doesn't remember when people didn't say 'not an option'. Can you imagine how jarring it would be to have a WoT character say 'right on! when affirming something. Those of us who grew to maturity in the 70s would have thought nothing of it." Add to that such glaring 21st century words as "backstory." Team Jordan should have caught that one.

So many moments requiring a shout and fistpump. You've all mentioned them. Strongest scene for me was definitely the Semihage/Rand/Min/Morodin one. In the space of three pages I was agast that Semi had escaped - horrified that she had the black adam around Rand's neck - unbelieving that Rand would kill Min but afraid he would - screaming at the totally unexpected grasp of the True Power and breaking of the adam - worried at the fleeting "face" that came with it - and finally very disturbed at the blackness that followed Rand. OMG! What an event! And yes, I'm certain the face was Morodin's. Whether he was a concious party to the moment or not, I can't say. But I do remember in the Prologue that he told G,D & M that Semi deserved to be captured for trying to kill Rand.

Egwene's rise to glory was a perfect counterpoint to Rand's descent in to despair. So much to love, but at the end of the battle when the brown AS who was at command central realised that the heroine of the moment was "Egwene." - I confess I teared with pride.

The last chapter was another extraordinary moment in a book filled with them. The setting on the summit of Dragonmount next to the huge abyss was perfect. So much, again, was said in a very short space: the triumph of love over despair made me think that Ilyena will be/has been reborn. Ilyena = Elayne? Perhaps.

And still there are as many questions left unanswered:
What's up with Taim, Logain, the BT?
Where is Demandred with which army? what throne?
Who is Mesaana masquerading as?
How the heck will the Mat/4Tuon-a story work out?

Most intriguing plot line, for me though, is the Moridin/Rand connection. Is Moridin being swayed to the Lightside? Rand has discovered WHY he has been reborn. Has Moridin? And, by the way, the DO cannot be destroyed. There is no good without evil, no top without a bottom, no front without a back, etc., etc. His mark upon the world is through others. Why has he forbidden the Chosen from killing Rand? That would be no victory. Only bringing Rand over to the Darkside would be a victory.

And finally, did anyone mention BELA!?!?
Roger Powell
1483. forkroot
Man-0-Manetheran@1482
Yup - The irrepressible subwoofer@593 mentioned our favorite equine.

Blocksmith@1474
I think I got my story slightly wrong - it was a 21 yr old Balvenie (not 25) ... the "Portwood" product. Terrific.

For a true links experience - I'd look for barren windswept dunes on the Saldean coast. Then when you get sick of bump and run golf, Travel to the Aiel waste for a real "target" course like we do in Phoenix.

Then when you get sick of losing golf balls, Travel to Tremalking for a verdant (but windy) 18 reminiscent of Hawaiian courses (right BillinHI?)
T C
1484. Freelancer
I'm going to go ahead and get myself in trouble here.

There is good without evil. They are not true opposites, just as light and darkness are not true opposites. A single candle is able to disperse darkness near it. It is physically impossible to bring darkness to a light, even the tiniest light, and diminish that light. The only illusion of power which darkness possesses is when light is absent.

Likewise, evil is always a perversion of good. (Relativists please hold your breath, I understand that you disagree with the dogmatic definition of either) When one man robs another, he believes that more money in his hands will be good for him, and chooses to care more about that than the harm done to his victim. But it isn't the harm that he seeks, it is being more rich himself. Even the most depraved actions have at their base a motivation that seems "good" to the perpetrator. Evil done in the name of evil, with no internally motivated goal only exists with the insane, and I cannot speak to that. Even terrorism, as vicious and heinous as it can be, is motivated by a belief that one way is better (first superlative of good) than another.

I accept the need for such a strucural cosmology in a story as equivalent forces of good and evil. But in truth, good and evil are not equal and opposite, and never can be. Good has power and value inherent unto itself. Evil only has a perverted, selfish, inhuman good as a value.
/rant

All that said, Jordan handles it far, far better in this story than any other I've ever encountered, and I believe that there will be surprises in the conclusion. I've seen glimmers to give me hope.
Roger Powell
1485. forkroot
Hah, Freelancer you have not been told the real truth about light and dark. Actually this whole thing about "photons" is just a ruse. The elementary particle is actually the "darkton" (particles of dark). When you open a dark closet, all the darktons rush out and the closet not longer has them (that's why it's no longer dark).

So call "light bulbs"?? Hah! What a misnomer! They are actually darkton absorbers. And the sun... well it is the ultimate darkton sink. It will absorb all the darktons around unless something like a building or tree gets in the way to prevent the darktons from flying sunward.

I'll leave it to you to figure out how your house-sized laser absorbs phased darktons... I need to go get another ouzo.
Alice A
1486. Wetlandernw
Thanks, Free. Didn't have the time or brain function to respond on that point, but hoped you would. :) Were you the one who, way back, pointed out heat/cold, light/dark, and I think another not-equal-and-opposite pairing that I can't remember? Or was that somewhere else?

And for the record, Robert Jordan was NOT a moral relativist, by his own declared statement.
Michael Maxwell
1487. pike747
Love hearing all of this from those of you who love WOT as opposed to the "this drags on forever but I am owed an ending crowd." I wish it could never end. Saying Egwene ROCKED falls so far short. I love Strong female characters (I am male) even the ones I might have certain disagreements with and I quadruple love it when they are allowed to show their unique strengths in subtle and full on asskicking ways. There are several moments in WOT where I have broken down in tears over RJ's depiction of REAL feminine and masculine love. 1.Lan and Nynaeve's conversation in the blight in EotW (I shared this with a female friend and we both broke out in tears as she read it) 2. The ceremony when Elaine WHO? WT....? and Aviendha become first sisters. 3. Nynaeve rallying the Malkier to make sure that Lan, in spite of himself, will not fight the shadow alone 4.Egwene seizing the prolonged moment from her capture to the Seanchan raid and fully realizing the day and what it means to rule and to serve. Her dedication to her responsibility and her pure joy at knowing and being able to do exactly what needs doing exactly when it needs to be done. I know there are more but these are the stand out moments for me relayed chronologically rather than rated. Right now Egwene does indeed rock and is at least Nynaeve's equal for my favorite character. I know this is about sword fighting and magic and junk but I care not what a story is about but who it is about. Rand is tragic. I do hold out some hope for him. He has laughed, that deepest, most cleansing of belly laughs but does he have the voice for the song? I think that, my friends is the key to it all. Thanks for sharing and for letting me share
Michael Maxwell
1488. pike747
Let me change this comment to my opinion of Brandon. When I read the excerpt posted here before the book's release I noticed a distinctly different voice. While reading the book I noticed that less. I don't know how much of that is because there are parts written by RJ or what. All I know is it felt like a WOT novel and I liked it, better than many of the more recent ones. I have high hopes for the next two and the time will pass too slowly. How did they manage an entire book without a trip to Caemlyn and with barely a mention of Elaine?
Michael Maxwell
1489. pike747
As I edit out these redundancies it provides me with an opportunity to address that which I missed in the original. I also loved The part where Gareth Brynne and Siuan Sanche bonded and acknowledged their affection for one another.
Michael Maxwell
1490. pike747
Sorry about the multiple redundant posts. I was, and am on a computer at the library. There was very heavy usage at the time so it was quite laggy. I was also about to be kicked off due to the library closing. So I guess I went click happy and it was not a random bubble of evil
Wilson Grooms
1491. alreadymadwiththeBA
Isilel @1420:

No known BA (i.e. on Verin's list) were taken by the Seanchan. Someone did a census after the attack, and all the known BA were confirmed in the tower.

Since, no one reads all the comments, here goes my question for the fourth time to the top of the stack:

Why does Egwene think that list of 3 sisters could be Mesaana? The list is sisters not on Verin's list who had disappeared or were taken. But earlier, she seems to know that exactly 40 were taken (including over two dozen full AS). And none of these 40 are on Verin's list either, so what is special about those 3?

Also, exactly 60 BA (plus twenty from the rebels) escape. But she includes Evanellein in this list whose disappearance only "strongly suggests" that she is BA. Does this mean that not all 80 AS who leave are on Verin's list? Or does she think the disappearance confirms Verin's list because Evanellein was on it?

If Brandon has confirmed that she is still in the tower, I think she has to be a Novice or Accepted. The Oath Rod worked in the AoL. There is no way around it. Did they make Novices and Accepted swear on the Oath Rod?
Roger Powell
1492. forkroot
pike747@1487,1488,1489,1490
Thanks for sharing and for letting me share
And share you did, repeatedly!

Agree 100% though with your sentiments.

EDIT: I have this strange urge to cross the Atlantic in 3 modest sailing ships. Where did that come from?
Captain Hammer
1493. Randalator
re: Mesaana - Aes Sedai or not?

I guess Mesaana could have slipped through the net with sneaky phrasing/reasoning. For her "I am not Black Ajah" is still a true statement even under the Oaths. After all she is technically not Aes Sedai, most certainly doesn't consider herself Aes Sedai and therefore simply CAN'T be Black Ajah.

In a way the Forsaken don't even consider themselves Darkfriends, as far as I recall. To them Darkfriends are nothing more but useful idiots. So even claiming not to be a Darkfriend might be possible for her...
James Jones
1494. jamesedjones
1487 pike747

There's this wonderful little button on any of your own posts (once you're a registered member, which you are). You might try clicking on the Edit button on your 2nd, 3rd, and/or 4th post. You can prevent anyone, who hasn't visited the page tonight, from noticing the quadruple slam. :)
Henry Loose
1495. schrodinger
hmmm... quadruple post (1487-1490) the dark one's touch is being felt upon the spoiler thread.
Sam Mickel
1496. Samadai
I think I am jealous, knowing that Leigh and others are at the New York book signing right now.

Stupid Oregon being one of the last places he is coming to.
Sam Mickel
1497. Samadai
To all North Americans, have a wonderful night.

To all Europeans, why aren't you in bed.

To all Asians and Australian area people, Get to work. ha ha.
Thomas Keith
1498. insectoid
Free @1471: Actually I'll be hiding in front of her! I'm dressing as a Dedicated Asha'man. And we have three books between us, so I guess we're evenly matched? ;)

EDIT: So close to 1500...Where is Sub??
craig thrift
1499. gagecreedlives
Samadai I am working. Im working to help crack 1500 posts
F Shelley
1500. FSS
woohoo - 1500!

We're all crazy!
Hurin Smells
1501. HurinSmells
on "eternities": let’s not forget about the realms of the Portal Stones. There’s the potential for infinite eternities (how about that one blind?!) when you consider that all possible realities are reflected on a world accessible via the Portal Stones.

on Rand/Egwene/Tuon: I’m hoping that the new enlightened Rand will get some perspective and realize that he needs to bend a little rather than trying bash everything into submission. Given the ever diminishing timescale towards the Last Battle I think he will realize submitting to Tuon and Egwene is the most efficient way to bring peace to a chaotic world. That way he can leave running the world to people who know what they’re about and he can get on with defeating the DO. This is based on Tuons POV that once she’s Empress not even the Dragon Reborn is her equal, the Seanchan version of prophecy that calls for Rand to kneel before the Crystal Throne, and the Foretelling that say that Rand will kneel before the Amyrlin and “feel her anger”. I reckon Egwene may be pretty angry if she learns Rand has submitted to the Seanchan, and the best way to quell her will be for Rand to also submit to the White Tower.
Wilson Grooms
1502. The Dogboy
Haven't got through all the posts, up to number 350, long way to go, so sorry if this is already mentioned.

Plenty of scenes I am looking forward to in the next books, but a big one will be Rand and Aviendha's marriage ceremony. My dim memory from TGS was of a big fight between Bael's relatives and Melaine's relatives, which was only won by Bael after his first wife (can't remember her name) elbowed Melaine in the ribs.

Imagine Rand (with backup maidens) v Aviendha & co. Battle royal!! Hope we get that one on screen.

BTW - Quality posts Leigh, top stuff.
Barry T
1503. blindillusion
Freelancer@1476

Think you could ask about the Bloodknives's ter'angreal?

Per Mr Jordan:

Q: Do certain races have better ability at channeling than others? For example, the Sea Folk at very good at weather, the Aiel have a high proportion of Dreamers, and the Seanchan can make ter'angreal.

RJ: The Seanchan can only make one kind of ter'angreal. They haven't thought about making another....


For some reason this has been bugging me more than anything else in the novel.
Rob Munnelly
1504. RobMRobM
A few more comments on reflection as I re-read.
- Love the way that Rand and Nyn peg Mat during the negotiation with Fortuona: Rand: "I trust Mat has his reasons. He always does. And they seem so logical to him at the time.... as solid a friend as one could hope for. Though he does grumble about what his conscience makes him do." Nyn: "Yes, he drinks and gambles too much.... His heart is golden under it all."
- Nyn isn't just backing her Two Rivers buddy - I believe she's grown to understand Mat better following the Ebou Dar experience.
- I'm convinced that Tuon's next line would have been to tell them that he's her husband, if Rand hadn't taken over the conversation with his ultimatum - else why would she have started the discussion talking about something she and Rand had in common.
- Clear that Tuon was able to reject Rand because she was afraid of the saa aura of darkness that he got after using the TP. (Note that chapter title - A Halo of Blackness.) "Such darkness. How could one man contain it." Query how they are going to get around that to get to a deal - presumably, Mat will have to be involved.
- Verin's letter to Mat contained her back up plan in case she couldn't get a hold of Egwene on timely basis. (Go to this hiding spot; get books; deliver to Egwene or Cadsuane.)
- Love Verin's description of the purpose of the Brown Ajah - working for the future not the present. (Similar to the excellent description of the Yellow that I covered in an earlier post.)

Rob
Patrick Huff
1505. pattack
Ty Freelancer for the loc. of the tower, I kinda had a good idea where it was, but any insight helps.

Just wonderin' if anyone knows of a more detailed map than the one in the books?

With all the crisscrossing the continent, from town to town, that someone has to have taken a crack at it.

My last post got eaten by dark forces, had to do this one again....
Rob Munnelly
1506. RobMRobM
Another note - Min had an advance vision of the Dragonmount experience in the Force of Light (Graendel) chapter. Hadn't noticed that before.
Patrick Huff
1507. pattack
As far as Fortuona is concerned, I wasn't all that surprised at the Beslan encounter, I was more surprised at the White Tower attack.

The Seanchan army has been very deliberate in its actions to date. The intel given to the Empress was very sketchy at best. I find it hard to believe that they would attack so far away from their home base without even an idea what they were in store for. Let me put it another way. I wasn't surprised at the attack, because it had been fortold by Egwene. I was just surprised at the lack of preparation and knowledge the Seanchan had beforehand. Seems kinda fishy is all. Let me know what you guys and gals think?
Rob Munnelly
1508. RobMRobM
@1505. Search Thirteenth Depository website. they have kick ass maps - don't know if they cover the Tower of Ghenji but they might. Otherwise, enjoy the remarkably thoughtful articles.
Wilson Grooms
1509. Tektonica
@1467 Forkroot:

@ Verin's redemption:
It just seemed like a redemption scene when at the very end Egwene says to Verin, "Your soul is pure white", or similar. She absolved her. But I agree with you....like Tam says....your intention is important and Verin's was excellent secret agent White work!

@1473 wetlandernw

@why didn't we get the good stuff with Perrin?
I understand they moved that section to the next book, but personally, I'd rather not know anything than the small info dump from Tam about Morgase and the reveal from Rand that Perrin was talking to Whitecloaks...Galad?
ie: No news would've been better

I'm just sayin.....
Barry T
1510. blindillusion
HurinSmells@1501

I suppose it depends on your view of Life, and Death, in general. Eternity is something that can only be reached after death. Life is finite. Death is forever. Or at least it is to me. I don't believe in rebirth. In my beliefs, once you die, you move on to the afterlife, which, for lack of a better word, I call Eternity. Hence the reason I find the concept of eternities to be amusing. To me, there is only one. Now, whether or not I believe in Heaven and Hell is rather irrelevant in this belief as they both equal to that same thing, i.e. the afterlife.

Unlike Mr Jordan's Wheel of Time series, I follow a linear belief system.

Now, to tie this into the WoT, you brought up the issue of Portal Stones. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these the lands of “if” and “might have been”? In other words, while it is possible to visit these lands, they are not, for lack of a better description, the “True World”. Who's to say where the inhabitants of these lands go after death.

But let's say for the sake of argument that the inhabitants of the Portal Stone worlds are real and not reflections. Well, that would mean in the afterlife, what little of one there is before rebirth, there is an infinite number of, say, Uno's inhabiting the Grave. How can that be possible? Because, after all is said and done, there are three constants in the WoT: the Creator, the Dark One (who is Lord of the Grave) and Tel'aran'rhiod. Did the Creator create an infinite number of each individual? Is the Dark One the "caretaker" of an infinite number of each soul?

Could be. As I said in this post I wasn't really trying to apply the word to the WoT. I was simply saying I find the whole concept of “eternities” to be amusing because of my own beliefs and research. I suppose I should have said that from the beginning, but I didn't want to bring my belief system into the discussion.

And now, just to tie everything up in nice little bow of my own thoughts, let's discuss Tel'aran'rhiod for a moment. This is the Dream World and as such everything in it is a dream, or in other words, a construct of the Real World it wraps itself around. So, while it is possible to die in this world, is it possible to live in this world? Or, if one does die in the Dream World, does one go to the Dream World's version of the Grave or back to the Real World's version of the Grave? After all, the only creatures we know inhabit the Dream World after death are the wolves and the Heroes of the Horn. Special cases. (And yes, wild animals too, though there is no evidence on what place these animals have in regards the the Real World.)

To me, the Dream World has always been a bit like the Matrix. As Morpheus tells Neo, the body cannot live without the mind (excuse the paraphrase there). Dieing in the Dream is much like being killed in the Matrix...or having your link pulled out in other words.

(And yes, I realize the above isn't a perfect analogy because whatever hurt a person takes in the Dream World they also have upon waking. Still, it's a good analogy...I hope.)

Have a good night everyone

- Blind

Oh, and I forgot to say it yesterday...but Saints 8-0. Good times ya'll, good times.
Barry T
1511. blindillusion
pattack@1505

Check out my post@1409 for a direct link to a map as mentioned by RomMRobM@1508.
John Pigott
1512. AbEnd
From an early draft of the "Veins of Gold" chapter:

"And Rand, with his Rand-feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling, how could it be so? It came without ribbons. It came without tags. It came without packages, boxes or bags. And he puzzled and puzzled 'till his puzzler was sore. Then Rand thought of something he hadn't before. What if Life, he thought, doesn't come from a store. What if Life, perhaps, means a little bit more. "
john massey
1513. subwoofer
EDIT: So close to 1500...Where is Sub??

Sub was being a good husband and changing out the faucets for the bathrooms. There was a sale... and we have four bathrooms. Boy, did that take me awhile. Must of been why I was putting it off, replacing ye olde fixtures in awkward surroundings- and I do not mean the back seat of a Volkswagen.

Looks like folks saw birgit's post and it lit a fire under them...

@Pike- I'm exactly the opposite, I am all in it for the magic and sword fighting. Guess that is the kid in me.

@forkroot- why take the easy way out? Make a course right in the Blight. Watch out for the "sand traps", the "hazards" are really hazards, and if you miss the fairway, you're on your own. May need bigger clubs...

If you are gonna pepper BS with questions, one of the first should be, "would it be possible to not use the answer RAFO?" otherwise I am sure an obvious pattern will arise here. My only other suggestion would be any hints of the fate of Lan... Will he continue his awesomeness?

As for Verin- I may be wrong here, but she is the second character that goes from the Dark to the Light in her last moments. Ingtar was the other. Sheriam was a disappointment in that regard. I am hoping that if there are any other baddies cloaked in supposed goodness, they find their way back into the Light too.

Woof™.
Rob Munnelly
1514. RobMRobM
Thanks, Blind. Other misc points:

Interesting how Ituralde and Tuon comment on Rand's grace, which no doubt has either resulted from or at least benefitted from his warder bonds.

During Tower battle, Egwene expressly states her goal of punishing Seanchan so they never attack the WT again. Pretty clear that message will be accomplished.

Some have noted lack of security of WT angreal storeroom but it is protected by strong wards - Eg bypassed those by travelling. Others could not get to them.

I like that Eg gathered all of Elaida's stuff so that others can study and figure out whether she was doing something secret that needed to be addressed. Clever.

I may have said this earlier but the Younglings are going to be in the Prologue - getting invited to WT and being subject to the biggest meat market in recent Randland history, as AS have a group of young seasoned warrier ripe for pre-TG bonding. Yowza.

I'm dying to see Caduane and her coterie travel to TV to see Egwene. That will be a fun meeting, teed up by statement by Cads that current group of AS are useless and the Aiel saying that Egwene has honor.

Also Eg will need to send an emissary to Camelyn to see Elayne. Perhaps Siuan? Leane? Not sure who else she can trust to deal with her old friend.
Alice A
1515. Wetlandernw
HurinSmells@1501 - Nitpick... the Foretelling says that "Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger." Not necessarily kneeling, there. Unless that bit is somewhere else and I missed it.

And on a related note, reading that whole Foretelling...
The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.
Yup, Elaida, and you're part of the "remnants cast out and scorned..." Well, maybe snatched out, and the cast out could be the BA, but I love seeing a good Foretelling fulfilled. ;)

blindillusion @ 1503 - what bugs you about it? That they only make a'dam and it doesn't occur to them to make something else? Or... 'splain?

Tektonica @1509 - ...I'd rather not know anything than the small info dump from Tam about Morgase and the reveal from Rand that Perrin was talking to Whitecloaks... That I can understand. I'm really curious as to why they left/put those in. They have kind of a spoiler effect, which is pretty surprising in a WoT book. We're more accustomed to being told something is "obvious" when it's thoroughly hidden! On the bright side, at least we'll only be waiting another year to find out more. But yeah, I kinda would rather not have gotten those bits just yet, especially since I haven't figured out if there's a specific reason for them to be included.
john massey
1516. subwoofer
@Rob- yes, this vaunted Warding. And Eggy Traveled right by them. I get the impression that more and more people have the Travel bug. I am pretty confident that I could swing a cat in a room full of AS and hit at least a couple of the ladies with the bug.

I wonder what will happen to Elaida's new Tower now that she has been leashed? Hopefully the builders can stop wasting their collective time and resources and focus on the coming storm.

Eggy can either Travel herself or maybe Dream to Elayne or Ny to go for a visit.

I am going through a mead phase myself. Seems like a good idea. Fermented honey...

Can't help but notice that Pablo posted but no mention was made of a fresh Leigh post. Hmmmmmmmm. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K. Gotta a patch on my arm, but it is a rather cumbersome big HONKING BOOK! Leigh! Send help... Maybe a fresh post to tide us over...

Woof™.
Nicholas Forrester
1517. Roy007
Personally I have always had a problem with the Seanchan version of the prophecies that the Drgaon must submit to the Crystal Throne. Since the Dragon submitting to anyone is not mentioned in the mainland version of the prophecies I am assuming it was a PR move by a previous Seanchan ruler who never thought they would be called on it.

Personally I am starting to think it is their version of the prophecies precisely because it *won't* happen. In a "well if our sacred prophecies are wrong what else have we screwed up over the millennium?" way.

Though I do love how the Seanchan have all their omens and when they don't work it was "human error" and not "has this omen *ever* actually worked?" Though often it makes me want to bang my head into the wall.

As far as Rand possibly submitting to the White Tower goes all we have from Foretellings is that he will know the Armylin's anger. It says absolutely nothing about who will win that fight or if there will even be one. We may even wind up with Egwene chewing the hell out of Rand and then agreeing to follow his plans simply because she knows trying to manipulate him will just screw everybody over.

Nynaeve remarking that Rand had bullied too much for it to work was nice except for the fact it came across as she was more annoyed that such a strategy wouldn't work rather than any real sympathy as seen later when she joins with Cadsuane and Co's attempt to use Tam to manipulate Rand.

Min however was easily the most awesome character in the whole book for FINALLY saying that maybe people should actually try to help Rand instead of failing at manipulating the hell out of him and making everything complicated.
Scott Terrio
1518. Renegade248
Just info for people complaining about Mat in TGS.

One of the storm leaders over on dragonmount has posted some Q&A from Brandon's book tour. one of the questions was pertaining to the change in Mat in the book. This is what the storm leader wrote.

Brandon describes Mat dealing with Tuon leaving as Mat having his feet knocked out from under him” and says that in Robert Jordan’s notes it says specifically that “Mat refuses to be coming husbandly”.

just thought you all may want the info.

Btw, TGS is one of my favorite books in the series, easily comparing with TSR, TFOH, and LOC.
Alice A
1519. Wetlandernw
From the "for what it's worth" department... I just copied a whole bunch of Egwene's dreams here, that seem to be relevant to the events of TGS or the following events. What do you all think? (Note that "she" always denotes Egwene unless otherwise specified.)

She had dreamed of Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.
Maybe we're not done with the Seanchan attacking the WT after all, eh?
Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.
Will this turn out to be the same Seanchan woman as the one with the sword? Or will it turn out to be one of the damane or suldam with Elayne, who gets sent to Egwene in the next book?
Rand building a wall with him on one side and her on the other, her and Elayne and others she could not make out. "It has to be done," he was saying as he piled up stones. "I'll not let you stop me now."
This was always assumed to be Rand isolating himself from humanity, but what's the betting that Rand will decide to sacrifice himself by taking the TP into himself to seal the DO, and blocking everyone away to keep them from getting hurt or touched with the TP? One possibility...
Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken.
Most people have assumed this was Morgase/Elayne being angry at Rand for taking the Lion Throne, but what if it's the Crystal Throne? Or the Amyrlin Seat?
Or a dream of a storm, great dark clouds rolling without wind or rain while forked lightning bolts, every one identical, rent the earth.
"The Gathering Storm", anyone? Does it match up with the prologue? (My book isn't handy at the moment.)
Twice, right atop one another, she dreamed of taking [Gawyn] by the shoulders and trying to turn him to face the other way against his will. Once he brushed her hands away roughly; the other time she was somehow stronger than he. The two blended together hazily.
Well?
In another, [Gawyn] began swinging a door closed on her, and she knew if that narrowing gap of light vanished, she was dead.
Does this have something to do with the "rescue", or something we haven't seen yet?
On bare feet, Gawyn walked [toward her] across a floor of broken glass, shards breaking at every slow step....she could see the trail of blood left by his slashed feet.
Ditto?
...a man riding on a black stallion. Gawyn. Then she was standing in the road in front of him, and he reined in. Not because he saw her...but the road that had been straight now forked right where she stood, running over tall hills so no one could see what lay beyond. She knew, though. Down one fork was his violent death, down the other, a long life and a death in bed. On one path, he would marry her, on the other, not. She knew what lay ahead, but not which way led to which. Suddenly he did see her, or seemed to, and smiled, and turned his horse along one of the forks...
Ditto?
She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe....
I got nuthin' on this one.
Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop.
Is this related to Elaida's attempt to take her down? Or is it yet to happen?
A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.
Berelain or Tuon?
[Egwene climbs up on top of a spire.] A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.
Love the imagery here. Anyone want to take shots at specific interpretation?

Just for the fun of it.... Maybe next week we can do the "miscellaneous prophecies." :)
Barry T
1520. blindillusion
Wetlandernw@1515

Naw, it's simply that going by that quote from Mr Jordan the only ter'angreal the Seanchan make is the a'dam.

Now they have another ter'angreal that it seems they make. It's either that, or they have a lot of them. And while the Bloodknives are rare, it seems a far stretch to me that they have enough of these ter'angreals to outfit an entire unit of their army.

Of course, they could simply go and collect them after the Bloodknives have performed their function, but I doubt that as well. If just anyone could follow behind an assassin and collect what they had on them at the time of his/her death it would kind of forgo the need for the assassin in the first place.

So, the entire concept of the Bloodknives bugs me. What can I say. I don't like super-secret assassins no one can see. Haven't since I read Salamandastron by Brian Jacques all those years ago.

And I'm curious as to whether Mr Jordan changed his mind or if Mr Sanderson had to ad lib what makes the Bloodknives so deadly.

---

Misc. Point

Sharina gets a serious MOA a la the end of A Message in Haste. I realize people have mentioned her in passing throughout this post, but damn. She's badass here.
Barry T
1521. blindillusion
Wetlandernw@1519

She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe....


I got nuthin' on this one.


Maybe she has to tear down what the Tower has represented/been for the past 3000 years so she can rebuild it to make it ready for the Last Battle?
Roger Powell
1522. forkroot
pattack@1507
The Seanchan army has been very deliberate in its actions to date. The intel given to the Empress was very sketchy at best. I find it hard to believe that they would attack so far away from their home base without even an idea what they were in store for. Let me put it another way. I wasn't surprised at the attack, because it had been fortold by Egwene. I was just surprised at the lack of preparation and knowledge the Seanchan had beforehand. Seems kinda fishy is all. Let me know what you guys and gals think?
Agreed that they are normally pretty deliberate. They do like surprise blitzkrieg-style attacks with their "Fists of Heaven" though. I think their rationale was that they were much more likely to catch the marath'damane napping when the line of conquered territory was far away from the WT.

In that respect, they were right and they almost won a stunning victory but for the ill-chance that a supremely competent and powerful former damane was available to thwart them. (And yes her strength in the power was important. She had to use the novice circle to circumvent the you know what but once in the circle she could Travel and then use the sa'angreal effectively precisely because she had done those weaves as a powerful channeler before.)

Our own history has taught us that more than one battle was turned on a small piece of chance, and so it was for this battle.

One more point: You are right that they really didn't know what was in store for them. The Seanchan army is incredibly well-organized with competent officers, air cover, and an unmatched coordinated channeling force. They really only have one weakness and that is they tend to be somewhat overconfident in their ability (the "Ever Victorious Army" y'know) and they do not react quickly when their opponent uses hitherto unknown tactics on them. This is how Ituralde was able to hold them off so long.

I don't think they knew about linking and didn't account for that in their plans (since the a'dam prevents damane from linking.) It is to Elaida's everlasting shame that the WT wasn't ready with a linking defense (similar to what the SAS had in place.) Elaida now has plenty of time to contemplate her mistake :-)
Alice A
1523. Wetlandernw
You can tell I'm not feeling very creative tonight; I keep posting stuff copied from other places. This one is a collection of quotes from storm leader reports over on Dragonmount. If you have the time, it's kinda fun to read. Here are some things I caught in my perusal that either are relevant to things discussed on here, or that I just thought folks here might enjoy. They are just listed in the order I saw them on the reports, which is mostly reverse chronological.

Robert Jordan never really intended to clarify on whether Rand is hearing Lews Therin because he’s insane or if he’s really there.

Q. After Knife of Dreams came out, Robert Jordan had said he was writing two more prequels…will you [Brandon] do them and what’s the status on them now?

A. There are notes for two prequels, one based around Tam’s story, and the other about Moiraine and Lan before they went to the Two Rivers. There are also notes for three additional books, Outriggers, which take place in the Wheel of Time world. Brandon equates being handed the Wheel of Time series with being handed the One Ring – the longer you hold onto it, the harder it gets to let go. He doesn’t want to ruin Robert Jordan’s world; Robert Jordan and the series deserve to be allowed to rest. However, Tom Doherty wants them to be written, though the decision is ultimately up to Harriet – if she decides they should be written, he’ll do it, but his gut says ‘no’, they won’t be. At this, he was met with an “aaawwww!” from the fans, and nodding, he said that it is with a heavy heart but he feels it would be best. The last he heard, Harriet was leaning towards ‘no’. If he does write them though, he feels there should be no more after this, “it would be nice to have a will” so no more can be made. He admitted that this is a half answer, but concluded with “Robert Jordan’s legacy is more important.”

Brandon said someone killed by balefire could be reborn and woven back into the Pattern later, but the Dark One cannot resurrect that person.

Brandon did point out his desire to have the next book, Towers of Midnight, (to some extent a reference to 13 towers somewhere in Seanchan) published at this time next year.

One person asked if he wanted to change anything in the story. Brandon said he wouldn’t really, as it’s RJ’s story, but he would remove the spanking scene, as it’s just not his own style, which got many laughs.

And in regards to cover artwork, for TGS, Harriet picked the piece, and Brandon wrote out a description of the scene for the artist. To ensure that they have artwork from the same artist (Darrell K. Sweet *cough*) for the remaining two books, Brandon has already supplied scene descriptions for those books’ covers, so presumably they are already in existence or will be soon.
Barry T
1524. blindillusion
From A Fount of Power:

Saerin turned to find four Red sisters entering the room. Notasha was wearing a white dress bloodied up the left side, though if the blood was her own, she'd been Healed. Katerine's mass of long black hair was frazzled and tangled with chips of stone. The other two women wore ripped dresses, faces soiled with ash.


Mesaana perhaps? She's the only Red named in this paragraph save Katerine. She's wearing a white dress. She's suspect simply because of who she enters the room with (though don't you just hate being tarred with the "guilt by association" brush). She's bloodied with no other evidence of a wound. She just happens to show up in the Command Center.

Granted, she's probably a red herring but eh well. I checked and didn't see her name mentioned in the 1500+ entries above.

----

On an unrelated topic. I also re-read Siuan's confession to Bryne regarding Moiraine's and her 20+ Year Plan.

I'd never really put it into perspective before just how much both of them sacrificed to see the Dragon Reborn survive to fulfill his destiny.

I bring it up to ask this question: How pissed does everyone think Moiraine is going to be when she is rescued from the ToG only to see how so many people contrived to royally fuck up everything Siuan and she worked so hard for?

(Sorry for the vulgar language as I'm sure some will take offense to the use of that word, but how else would you put it?)
Wilson Grooms
1525. Tgrant
Hi, never posted here before but I gots some thoughts bursting out of my head.

I finished TGS last week and altogether was very satisfied, even giddy. After such a long series some of the story lines wrap up with breathtaking suddenness, and sometimes they seem a little cheap because of that, but I think it’s hard to for the authors to build something up so large and then meet the expectations. Still, I’m awed by Verin, Egwene, and Rand. Rand’s so tortured and thinks he’s doing what has to be done and won’t let the people who want to help him help him. Unfortunately most of them think helping him means controlling him – the ongoing theme of the Aes Sedai in this series. Even Egwene thinks that’s the way of it as shown by her thoughts when she is finally in control of the WT. There will be sparks there in the future obviously between Egwene and Rand. Min is the only one who sees that that isn’t the road to go down to help Rand. She may be the key to helping the Aes Sedai and Rand work together in the end. I think she’s the only one who sees clearly where everyone is coming from. There was a sentence in the book toward the end where she remarks that maybe controlling him isn’t the way to go about it. I think she’ll be the key to a lot of things. She’s been there the whole time with Rand and is just about the last person he trusts, even though the DO has driven a wedge there too. Mabye just maybe she is Ilyena.

There were some references in previous books, few and far between, about a third person in Rand’s head, I was reminded by the WOT FAQ. Now it’s clear that somehow Moridin is in there. There is a connection there that has yet to be fully revealed. But LTT and Ishamael and Rand are somehow in each other’s heads. I suspect Moridin found a way in and is using his influence to try to finally turn Rand to the Dark One. But the connection goes both ways as shown by Moridin asking Rand to leave.

The DO is clearly using the True P to try to get Rand addicted. It was clearly the DO’s plan to use Semirhage to force Rand into a position where he would have to use the TP. She knew at that moment that the DO had betrayed her to get to Rand. I agree with @158 that is was her punishment by the DO/Moridin. So much for Semi-Forsaken.

The deal of her being broken by being spanked wasn’t well done. It would have been more believable if it had been done better, but it just wasn’t well done. It should have taken time for the humiliation to get to her, and a few tantrums, before she finally broke. Oh well.

Matt… uh… he’s still there. The “zombies” seem to me like a RJ idea that was poorly implemented by BS, but that’s speculation of course. And “saidered” must have been a BS idea, but I still found it hilarious.

Cads makes the mistakes all the Aes Sedai make. She tries to manipulate. They can’t control Rand, they have to help him on his terms (mostly) if they are going to be any help. Moiraine was the only one who seemed to not have this compulsion to control everyone, or at least she controlled it. It will be exciting to see how integral she is to helping Rand get along with the rest of the AS.

Ah, Verin, that most awesomest of diabolical plotters. If these women are going to take so much power unto themselves, more of them should be like Verin. The sacrifice was colossal, and with large potential for failure. She’ll obviously go down as one of the greatest players leading up to Tarmon Gaidon. It just shows what one person can do if they make the sacrifice. I don’t really care that the justification for her telling all the secrets to Egwene rather than someone else was not strongly supported. The reveal was just too cool for me to worry too much about that. I’m sure she had good justification for going to Egwene, even if the authors didn’t give us meticulously point them out!

It seems Rand and LTT have achieved the “reintegration” that Semirhage referenced when she was captured. I don’t think they are two people anymore. The spirit has united fully with body, or something like that. Maybe it’s been happening and that’s why he recognized the sword without LTT telling him. He couldn’t recognize LTT’s memories as separate from his own anymore. He even seemed a bit puzzled the time because the sword seemed so old. So I think it’s his own sword from the Age of Legends. I think he is already becoming LTT and LTT’s memories were not separate anymore in his mind. He is LTT now, he truly is the Dragon Reborn and I think in the future books his awesomeness will only get more awesomenessy so that everyone will recognize his greatness and gladly follow him to Shayol Ghul and the Last Battle, because he’ll be so awesome. Or maybe he’ll lead a barely coherent alliance that threatens to shatter in the slightest breeze, I don’t know. I sure hope the Aes Sedai and Seanchan and everyone gets in line. Reminds me of politics. Everyone thinks they know the right way to do it and the leadership challenge is to unite a bunch of headstrong morons. Sometimes it’s not so much who’s right, but getting something done by uniting behind strong leadership, even if they aren’t perfect, like Rand. So go Rand.
T C
1526. Freelancer
forkroot@1485

You think I haven't heard about "lightbulbs" as dark suckers before? I taught electronics for the Navy for a total of 6 years. It's old and tired. I'd love it when someone would tell me they spent several years in civilian electronics training before the military, and were taught that electricity moves from positive to negative. I then ask them where the highest positive voltage is on a CRT screen (tube TV set). Why, the B+ anode on the back of the screen, of course. And the most negative? The electron gun at the cathode in back. Oh, so electrons jump off the screen and fly to the electron gun in a 12.75KHz beam pattern. I got your dark suckers. In Bill's immortal words, PHBTHBPHBTHTHPHB.


Wetlandernw@1486

Might not have been me, don't think I would have gotten engaged about heat/cold in the same way. Sounds like someone with more physics training, they love thinking in Kelvin.


pike747@1487/88/89/90

Nicely saidsaidsaidsaid. Trying to get into the top 50 the easy way?


forkroot@1492

When I left work I wondered who would hang out for the Columbus special. Shoulda know'd.


Randalator@1493

We have a winner! The forsaken absolutely differentiate themselves from darkfriends, we've seen it more than once, the contempt they have for the pitiful wretches who lick their boots. And easy enough to take the oaths, say "I am not of the Black Ajah", and/or "I am not a darkfriend", then go on your way, steal the rod later that night and remove the oaths. Much more likely on Mesaana's part than trying to hide while being someone who can be given chores, or expected at lessons.


insectoid@1498

Bah, no worries, I couldn't hurt a fly. And I'll be dressed as a balding, bearded middle aged guy who just got out of church.


HurinSmells@1501

Your point is taken, and a good one. But not all possible worlds are accessible via portal stones. Only those to which links, and therefore symbols, had been discovered. The bigger question would be, how did someone get to them without a portal stone, in order to include their "address" on the portal stones? As with how many licks it takes to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know.


blindillusion@1503

Will do! Any chance you have an online reference to that Q&A, I wouldn't want to chase that one with secondhand hearsay.


pattack@1505

I answered this @1388. It's ten days' slow river travel north of Whitebridge on the Arinelle, somewhere just to the south of a line due east from Baerlon, and within two miles east of the river. That's as precise as it's going to get.

Hold the presses! Thanks to RobMRobM@1508, I've got a link to a Map of Andor which marks both Shadar Logoth and the Tower of Ghenjei. Of course, it is speculative, but to me is appears valid given the textual descriptions.


subwoofer@1513

Have to stop you there. Verin did not need to find her way back to the Light. She was always in the Light. She bought an e-ticket on the darkfriend ride because she'd been caught by Black sisters snooping into their business. It was play or die, so she went undercover. Mole for the Light, as I first declared her back up in the 300's somewhere. Her last mistake was over 70 years ago, getting caught. After she took her new oaths, she knew how her end would be managed. Her 70 year plan was gathering enough info about Team Shadow and the Black Ajah, then finding the right person to give the info to while she sipped some tea in the hour of her death. She was never a baddie. Heck, if she was she would have killed Cadsuane when she had the chance. When she was sure Cadsuane meant Rand no harm, she held up.


Oh, backing up a bit to Wetlandernw@1473

Guess what I found while poking about on the 13thD for maps? WoTMania has been resurrected as Read and Find Out. Slightly altered front end, but content remains. I'm very happy about that, they have a great theory forum.


Wetlandernw@1515

blindillusion@1503 is disillusioned ::snicker:: about RJ's statement that the only ter'angreal the Seanchan have made are a'dam, when we read that the bloodknife assassins wear a ring ter'angreal. And I will ask Brandon.


Wetlandernw@1519

On Egwene's dreams...

- Rand never sat on the Lion Throne, many have pointed that out in the past, so it could be the Crystal Throne. I don't quite imagine him sitting on the Amyrlin Seat. spanking it, yes...
- The golden hawk is a Seanchan sigil. Egwene and Berelain? Yeah, that's not happening in this turn of the Wheel. Then again, you would think Egwene would deal with anyone before the Seanchan. Then again, she trusts her dreams, so maybe she'll be amenable.
Wilson Grooms
1527. Planeswalker
blindillusion @1524

nice catch there with Notasha! :) now, we;ve got another good candidate here for Mesaana...

Tgrant @1525

i like your idea there with Min as Ilyena reborn. Used to think it was Elayne too. But it would be great if we find out she is since I've always favored Min over Elayne and Aviendha.
Kurt Lorey
1528. Shimrod
Somehow, I think the Bloodknives' ter'angreal are one-time use objects, attuned to the activating user.

I wonder where they derived from, the War of Power or from the damane who created the a'dam?
Rob Munnelly
1529. RobMRobM
Wet-your last dream is the one that Egwene used as the sign that a Tower attack was coming but would not be successful.

There's also the other Eg dream where she is walking on a cliff, begins to fall and is saved by a Seanchan woman. Can't figure out how this is going to happen now - I had assumed we'd get something during the Seanchan attack. I'm betting Tylee will be the savior but not a heavy bet.

Final misc point - wonder whether Eg will take her own advice to the Whites and either directly offer an embassy to Rand or do some info gathering/spying first to find out where his head is at. I assume she'll find Nyn's or Avi's dream and ask her to travel to TV
Barry T
1530. blindillusion
Freelancer@1526

But of course.

Emma asked it under the DragonCon 3 September 2005 section. And the question is in there, but my eyes are hurting now.

And "disillusioned"...why, only the best word ever.
Maiane Bakroeva
1531. Isilel
I am with Randalator @1493 that Mesaana simply swore the 3 Oaths and could truthfully say that she was no DF/BA. A better declaration to demand would have been "I do not serve the Shadow" - no way around this one, even for a FS.

Freelancer @1526:

IMHO Egwene would have been competent enough to hide the Oath Rod in a place known only to herself and to ward it with inverted traps, both in waking world and in T'AR.
So, IMHO Mesaana is still bound... and her main objective now is to find the Rod, which will eventually lead to her discovery and confrontation with Egwene. And also explain Egs continued survival with an FS ensconced in her stronghold.

Shimrod @1528:

I am fairly sure that the Bloodknife death-rings would work safely on channelers and only suck life-force out of non-channelers because they need something to run on. We will see the whole WT equipped with them yet, IMHO.
BTW, Egwene's stupid rage at Siuan prevented her from learning about the assassin so far. I guess that Gawyn will redeem himself by saving her from one of the others.

And it is quite likely that RJ simply changed his mind re: ter'angreal that the Seanchan can make.

Just as he changed his mind re: penances for AS, for instance. When Alanna asked for a beating and a penance of labor in TDR it was something outrageous and unheard of, but in the later books it becomes a matter of course.
john massey
1532. subwoofer
@Free- correct, it is the human to dog translation. And we bought her a snuggie so it cuts down on her typing skills. Batteries died on my mouse so Sub isn't going to scroll back up( she also hates using the keyboard if one is available, an animal thing), but what I meant was that it is good to see the guys I like die in honorable ways. Their last acts a testament to who they are deep down. Sorry I am still smarting from the Giants last four games. Need to drown my sorrows.

But holding Caddy up as an example of good acts- I know it may be my wool-headedness, but I think Caddy should of died, or at least been taken down a peg. She may be handy in the last battle- Caddy could demonstrate what a real Green / Battle Ajah Sister could do. On the other hand, Rand giving her guff was satisfying in itself.

@Wet- maybe what Eggy dreams has much to do with weevils in the food before she went to sleep ;)

Woof™.
Leslie Annis
1533. Lannis
Wetlander @ 1519: re: Egwene's dreams...

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.


I think this is probably in reference to Alivia.

And Egwene's Gawyn dreams, and all the convolutions thereof... they're probably the biggest reason it irked me that Egwene didn't manage to get around to talking to Gawyn in tGS... I'm not talking about a big smoochy-smoochy heart to heart, but just telling the guy that she's horribly busy, things are in crisis, and as soon as she sees to her duty she needs to sit down with him and talk--alone! Might tide the boy over a bit and keep his thoughts from thinking he's not important to her... you know, kind of the opposite effect of ignoring him...? GAH!


I've finally started keeping a sticky on my desktop with number of the last post I read... this scrolling thing is for the birds...


On another note: a big thank you to everyone who participates in the reread! My hubby's gone hunting for the week, and in the past I've been known to go a little berserk (7 days, 5 kids, 3 outings, 1 dentist visit, 1 hubby phone call... s'a long week). Thank you all for keeping me company! :)

Oh, and I made apple pies! :D
Wilson Grooms
1534. UK Chris
I was wondering if anyone else noticed the time lapse that goes on between Rand seeing the boys in the "colors" (e.g. Mat is in Caemlyn) versus when we see them in subsequent chapters? Sorry if someone posted this already -- I got through about 600 comments and then just searched for "time lapse" ;)
Captain Hammer
1535. Randalator
Roy007@1517

Though I do love how the Seanchan have all their omens and when they don't work it was "human error" and not "has this omen *ever* actually worked?" Though often it makes me want to bang my head into the wall.

Actually, I've come to think that this is a big honking double standard we have here.

We so readily believe in Foretellings, Viewings, Dreams, Prophecies, probability-warping ta'veren...why not omen?
Roger Powell
1536. forkroot
Freelancer@1526
Ah yes, I should have known that you would be well acquainted with the theory of darktons. Hopefully some of our younger posters have now been enlightened... err, "endarkened".

blindillusion@1524
"Notasha" hmm? Unfortunately the name makes visualize someone saying: "Yes, I huv made it here, but vere is Moose and Squirrel?"
Wilson Grooms
1537. Emond Fielder
"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one." Seems to me the "three" are Min, Avi and Elayne. Rand needs all three of them, why else would he have needed to fall in love with all three of them? They join together to provide him some vital help - no idea what that might be.

Rand touching the True Power - maybe the Creator finally showed up and he has the same access to the TP as the DO - we all like balance, after all. So, the Creator allowed Rand to use the True Power.
Barry T
1538. blindillusion
forkroot@1536

Well, of all the Forsaken, which one reads the most like a cartoon villian anyway?

After all, Mesaana "found how to teach them all!!" Mwahahaha
T C
1539. Freelancer
blindillusion@1530

Excellent, consider it asked.

Isilel@1531

I could imagine that scenario. I did not speculate as to what will or won't happen regarding Mesaana, only pointed out that currently known events do not in any way preclude her from being in the guise of an Aes Sedai in the Tower. My money is still on Danelle.


forkroot@1536

Sometimes you're bad. This time your Badenov. Is Leigh then our Fearless Leader, Boris?


Emond Fielder@1537

With Callandor, the three is a circle of two female and one male channelers. Much, much speculation in the metric ton of comments regarding which two female channelers will work with Rand:
- Elayne/Aviendha
- Nynave/Alivia
- Moiraine/Nynaeve
- Moiraine/Alivia
- Egwene/Tuon
- Cadsuane/Alanna (FTW!) ;-p

Regarding Rand & the Twu Powah, I think the image of Moridin's face flashing as he embraced it somewhat precludes anything to do with the Creator. Also, suddenly introducing yet another aspect to a channeling power this late in the game would be a bit cheap.


I'm up to 4 questions for Brandon. Any others from the field? I may have to work with insectoid and his mother to spread them out, can't imagine anyone will be allowed that much time chatting with him, but by Saturday I'll prioritize the questions and see how many can be snuck in. I need to check on Dragonmount and see if anyone has asked about Graendal/Asmodean in the right way to avoid a RAFO, such as, "Has Graendal been terminally acquitted of Asmodean's murder?". It's worth a try...
R B
1540. MasterAlThor
Forkroot, Freelancer and Subwoofer...

You guys are hilarious. Thank you for the laughs.

Forkroot....
Moose and Squirrel. Havent seen that since I was a kid.


Freelancer....

You at least understand what I was getting at right? I was just saying that I think in this world that the pattern will not allow for intinite evil or good. Though if the DO can break the wheel, why can't the DO be taken out of the equation?

Oh and by the way....your guru is showing

Wetlandernw....

You never need to apologize to us.

I will take on your Egwene dream with the disks.

She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe....


I believe that she is trying to take down the Aes Sedai. And by that I mean her fight for control of the Tower.

I don't remember where it is but she has a thought that she must become the WT. It was more of a realization.

We all know that "the guardians will balance the servants" Maybe this refers to Egwenes reluctance to unit the two towers.

Freelancer....

Lakers are my all time fav bball team. But even they got swept by the Pistons in the 80's. And the the Bulls just embarrased them twice.

Oh I almost forgot.....your guru is showing


And now for something completely different.


To all those who serve our great country (US). Thank you. Your service has not gone unnoticed.

To those who serve their country (not US). Serve with honor and return home safely.

You all are missed.
F Shelley
1541. FSS
@ Randalator 1535

A few years ago I posted a loony theory that the Seanchan might be on to something regarding "omens". My thinking was that if the Wheel of Time is a self-correcting mechanism designed to keep the Ages looking fairly similar, then perhaps those self-corrections of the Pattern would be viewable in the smallest details of the visable world (i.e. the bahavior of ants or bugs or what-not). You know the whole chaos theory quote of Ishamael's that a butterfly flapping its wings causing a whole mountain to fall? Well, if the butterfly flapping its wings isn't random, but the Wheel exerting its influence, then someone looking for "omens" may be able to deduce some future event.

I was laughed out of the room at the time, but I still like my loony theory. After all, Tuon did rise to the throne by reading these omens. Who's to say they're complete bunk...
R B
1542. MasterAlThor
Now that that is done....where is the Cognac???
Tess Laird
1543. thewindrose
::Raising hand shyly(yeah I am real shy;)::
Freelancer - Since Verin has been outed, can you ask if she was behind Demira's attack?
In the next book, ToM, will we get to see some 13/13 action????
Much thanks, from one of your humble shishyas:)

The syllable gu means shadows
The syllable ru, he who disperses them,
Because of the power to disperse darkness
the guru is thus named.

– Advayataraka Upanishad 14—18, verse 5
Barry T
1544. blindillusion
Freelancer@1539

Awesome. Thanks much.

Thewindrose@1543
The syllable gu means shadows
The syllable ru, he who disperses them,
Because of the power to disperse darkness
the guru is thus named

-Advaya Taraka Upanishad 14—18, verse 5

Very cool
Captain Hammer
1545. Randalator
Tgrant@1525

There were some references in previous books, few and far between, about a third person in Rand’s head, I was reminded by the WOT FAQ. Now it’s clear that somehow Moridin is in there.

Well, that has been clear at least since Knife of Dreams, if not earlier...

There is a connection there that has yet to be fully revealed. But LTT and Ishamael and Rand are somehow in each other’s heads. I suspect Moridin found a way in and is using his influence to try to finally turn Rand to the Dark One.

Um, does "Don't cross the streams" mean anything to you? Rand and Moridin have had a connection ever since their balefire streams touched in Shadar Logoth. And that sounded not half as dirty in my head.

And from TGS it is pretty obvious that this link is anything but intentional on Moridin's part...
James Jones
1546. jamesedjones
1543 thewindrose
The syllable gu means shadows
The syllable ru, he who disperses them,
Because of the power to disperse darkness
the guru is thus named.
So, Freelancer has the power to control darktrons. It all makes sense, now.
Wilson Grooms
1547. alreadymadwithDarkfriends
Randalator @1493/Free @1526/Isilel @1531

Nuh uh. No way. If Mesaana gets away with saying, "I am not a Darkfriend," that is stupid. She clearly is a friend of the Dark, even if she thinks she is above the rank and file. Even Aes Sedai can't twist intent that much. Note that this is the wording used by Egwene and the way she thinks about it. It doesn't have anything to do with "Black Ajah."

And Free, ask my question(s) @1491!
Matthew Smith
1548. blocksmith
Forkroot@1483 and @1485

I have sampled the 21 and it is most excellent. Now if I can get my hands on some Two Rivers Tabac, we could truly relax in the bunker.

The light vs. dark thing...way funny.

Wetlandernw@1519

I'll take a stab at a couple...

She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe....


I think this is Eg's first attempts to undermine/break support for Elaida not working and her realization that instead she needed to build-up or unify the WT to be successful.

A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.


This I interpret as the attack disrupting the WT and even though unsteady, support and unification may begin from the bottom (base) up.

On bare feet, Gawyn walked [toward her] across a floor of broken glass, shards breaking at every slow step....she could see the trail of blood left by his slashed feet.


And finally, I think this dream represented all the decisions that Gawyn made from the tower overthrow to the present...repeated battles and loss of men for a cause he was not sure about but always, ultimately, in pursuit of Eg.
Barry T
1549. blindillusion
JEJ@1546

Of course Freelancer has the power to control darktrons.

After all, he's Chuck Norris:

Darkness is not the absence of light. It is the presence of Chuck Norris.


see: Freelancer@1526

Bah, no worries, I couldn't hurt a fly. And I'll be dressed as a balding, bearded middle aged guy who just got out of church.


Mmm hmm...wouldn't hurt a fly...? Look who's being modest. Bearded. Yep.

(sorry, couldn't help myself =))
Matthew Smith
1550. blocksmith
Freelancer

One question that I would love answered is why the death scene with Graendal was omitted. I don't believe that such a question or response has been on any of the storm leader posts. Of course, if as Leigh suspects (sorry...pretty sure she just raised the question, but I couldn't resist) than an RAFO answer could speculate conjecture on her disposition.

I know, that never happens.
Bill Reamy
1551. BillinHI
forkroot @1483: You are correct, sir! Of course, I don't play golf myself, even though I live right around the corner (literally) from an excellent course (Makaha Valley Resort, aka West Course). My coordination-level, not to mention my frustration-level, are set way too low to make golf at all enjoyable for me.

blindillusion @1503: That extra ter'angreal thing has been bugging me too. I suspect that's a little touch that Brandon threw in and Team Jordan missed it or just decided to let it go.

patack @1507: I think For(Tuon)a was still being thrown for a loop following her meeting with Rand, but also the Seanchan are under the mistaken impression that the WT has a nuclear-grade weapon (Elayne's partial unravelling of the gateway) and they do know that the WT has Travelling. I think they are hoping to get both of those in their raid. As well as taking a bunch of marath'damane out of the picture, one way or another.
Captain Hammer
1552. Randalator
alreadymad@1547

Nuh uh. No way. If Mesaana gets away with saying, "I am not a Darkfriend," that is stupid. She clearly is a friend of the Dark, even if she thinks she is above the rank and file. Even Aes Sedai can't twist intent that much. Note that this is the wording used by Egwene and the way she thinks about it. It doesn't have anything to do with "Black Ajah."

That is the flaw with this oath. It allows the "oathee" to make any untrue statement as long as he believes it to be true.

To the Forsaken "Darkfriend" is a name exclusively reserved for cannonfodder-type lackeys. So from their POV they are not Darkfriends. That the Aes Sedai's intention of demanding this statement is quite different (as is their definition of "Darkfriend") is irrelevant. It's the oathee's mind that counts.

If Mesaana doesn't consider herself a Darkfriend, she can say so even under oath.

Now "Do you serve the Shadow/Dark One" would be different. I don't think you can reason your way out of that one.
R B
1553. MasterAlThor
*looks behind a couple of bottles* Ahhh there it is *takes Cognac and pours a glass*

Now where was I.....

@ Various...

Plesae explain why you all think that Tam and Morgase are going to hook up? That would make Morgase...what would Lini call her...a chit. Now I know that there are some less than favorable opinions of Morgase but she just goes from being foolish over Tallanvor to being in deep smit with Tam? Doesn't make sense. But if you got something let me know.

@ Freelancer....

Your guru...ah it's getting old. Anyway, who is this Narg and what did he do? If he hurt Bela you may have some unpleasant questions to answer.

@jamesedjones....

I would say that Mat is just different. Not unpleasantly so, just different. I would hope that those of us who noticed that Mat was a little of would not change our minds about the character.

Alreadymad....

Freelancer answered some of your questions *points up there somewhere*

I might be misunderstanding the way you are phrasing the question but in the AoL novices and accepted (if they had them) did not swear on binders.

Now if you meant in this Age. Well *points up again* I do believe that someone has tackled this one too. Good luck on finding it.
R B
1554. MasterAlThor
*passes blocksmith a cask of Two River Tabac*

Here ya go. We got more in the back. That is if forkroot is bogarding it all, again.
Wilson Grooms
1555. alreadymadwithDarkaquaint
Randalator @1552

I still don't buy it. Is there a POV somewhere saying they don't consider themselves "Darkfriends?"

The glossary says:

Darkfriends: Those who follow the Dark One, believing that they will gain great power and rewards, even immortality, when he is freed from his prison.


MasterAlThor @1553

No one has answered my question regarding the discrepancy in Egwene's lists. (1491)

My last question was if the current Novices and Accepted also swore that they were not Darkfriends on the Oath Rod during the Purge. I'm guessing not, since Verin says that the BA only recruited from full sisters. This seems much more likely a place for Mesaana to hide, even though it means Graendal was wrong. A huge oversight on Egwene's part if so.
Wilson Grooms
1556. Nightbaron
@Freelancer

It'd be nice if you could ask about the Sulin mis-step in the book (placing her in Rand's group while she should be with Perrin's group), and if they are considering changing her to Nandera(sp?) in future publications.

It's not really a question, but I just hope they have heard about it and are planning to correct it.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to hear why "blood and ashes" was suddenly replaced by "bloody ashes"... :P
Wilson Grooms
1557. Nightbaron
@AlreadyMad:

I'll try to reply to your question; about Egwene's list. My understanding is that Egwene had

1) Verin's list of Black Ajah
2) A list of confirmed abducted sisters by the Seanchan (ie: people had witnessed their taking, like with Elaida)

The list of three names are the sisters who are unaccounted for, and are not in either of those lists. So they might be Black Ajah that Verin missed, might have been taken by the Seanchan, or might be Mesaana.

What I'm not sure is why Evanellein(sp?) is not on that list, but instead that her disappearance "strongly suggested she was Black Ajah". Is it because someone witnessed her leaving?
Ron Garrison
1558. Man-0-Manetheran
Love this blog, but coming in at 1482 was tough. So much to think about! I keep hopping back and forth.

Free- and Wet-: Didn't mean to imply that good and evil were equal - and more specifically - in a fixed proportion. What I was trying to say is that there can never be a time when there is only good. There is always an ebb and flow. Free-, you said it better @1416. If the DO is destroyed, then the Wheel stops turning.

Callandor - "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

My first thoughts were also "what three people?" Now I'm totally swayed by the argument that it refers to the three powers. And who wields them thru Callandor? Freelancer, once again you are all over it. The Egwene/Tuon/Rand combo has a certain thematic appeal of White Tower/Seanchan/Randland united.
Sam Mickel
1559. Samadai
Just a thought.

I think that most of us here believe that Lanfear was posing as Else back in tDR, so she could get the SG's to go to Tear.

But, what if it was Mesaana. There is her pov (can't remember when, although I believe she has only had 1 or 2 pov's) that she was helping Belal set the trap for Rand. I am kind of believing that the trap was Mesaana's and Lanfear used it to fulfill her own agenda. Thus Egwenes vision of Liandrin laughing at her and Lanfear laughing at Liandrin
Matthew Smith
1560. blocksmith
AlreadymadwithASlists@1555

I will take a stab...

Eg describes herself as examining a list of all the women in the WT, broken down by ajah. "Many" had notations indicating they were BA and escaped, BA and captured, and Taken by the Seanchan. There is further explanation that the taken list includes nearly 40 initiates, of which more than 24 were full AS (for math say 25 AS and 14 Nov/Accepted). Eg also indicates that the BA in the WT on Verin's list were all accounted for after the fighting, but most (not all) had escaped prior to Eg being raised to Amyrlin. The few BA in the WT that were not captured were executed. In addition they had captured 3 additional AS (through the reswearing of the oaths) that were not on Verins's list. Ultimately a total of 80 BA AS (60 from the WT and 20 from SAS) escaped.

Now here is where it gets interesting...

The last paragraph of page 763 states that her next list had only a few names...these were AS not on the Verin list and had either been taken by the Seanchan or had disappeared following the attack. To me, this indicates the 40 on the previous list were either a)known to have been taken or b) known to have been BA. i would have thought the second is unlikely as novices/accepted would not be AS (in the black ajah...course they could be lowly DF cannon fodder), however Eg further states on page 764...

"Each woman in the White Tower had proven that she was not a Darkfriend. Each woman on Verin's list was accounted for. She'd been executed, she'd been captured, she'd fled the White Tower the day of Egwene's ascension, she'd been taken by the Seanchan or she was out of the tower at the moment-and had been for some time...."


This tells me that the 25 or so on the 40 "taken by the Seanchan" list were mostly BA edit: as they were on Verin's list and that the three on the second list are 1)currently missing, 2)could not be confirmed as being taken by the Seanchan, 3)have not been out of the WT for a some time, and 4) were not on Verin's list. This means Eg cannot cannot confirm anything except that those three are not currently in the WT, whereabouts and affiliation unkonwn.

Eg's note that Evanellein is missing is linked with two other Sitters in Chapter 46 To Be Forged Again on page 716, both of whom were on Verin's list, but she also goes on to list two other red Sitters (Javindhra and Pevara) who we know are on a mission and are unlikely to be black. But she is not including them with the three other names described above.
Rob Munnelly
1561. RobMRobM
@1553 - OK. This has been my one looney theory, based on following principles.

1. Tam needs a wife. He is an excellent, honorable man. He was pegged as most eligible bachelor in first chapter of EOTW. Rand is going to be busy with his own life. Tam needs a permanent partner, or there won't be a happy ending. Wheel of Time requires closing that circle raised in the opening of the series.
2. He likes redheaded women (like wife Kari).
3. Morgase in EOTW noted that she had some knowledge of Two Rivers tongue. Only TR character that we can tie to Camelyn is Tam, who while serving as Second Captain of Companions, obviously spent time in Camelyn as his wife is a merchant's daughter from there.
4. Supposition is that there is some connection between Tam and Morgase that lead to her knowledge of the TR tongue - not that they dated but that she as a young noble (not queen yet) saw him in a professional role and was impressed or may have been a friend or cousin to Kari.
5. Elayne is infatuated with someone from the TR; Gawyn is too; why shouldn't Morgase be any different.
6. Re Tallanvor, too much text to suggest that they would not be perfect together. Assumption is that he will die defending her, not that she'll dump him.
7. Hope is that Tam will recognize her and make a connection - I'd also love to see him show off blademaster skills "on screen" and save her.
8. They end up together and get to take care of the grandkids back in Camelyn for a happy ending.
9. If not Morgase, we'll need to find someone else cool for Tam - perhaps Leane or Alliandre, but Morgase is the best fit.

Hope that helps.
Rob
Sam Mickel
1562. Samadai
You know we are basing our belief that the world needs the DO to help turn the wheel of time, but remember that belief is based on what we have learned from the Aes Sedai. After all the things that they have gotten wrong who is to say they are right about this. Darkness isn't required, it is an afterthought
Wilson Grooms
1563. jefff
@various

re: penultimate

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya

Penultimate means second to last not final, last, paramount or supreme.

Just thought we should clear that up. ;-)

Enjoying all of the comments - only up to the 770's though. Whew!
Wilson Grooms
1564. alreadymadwithlists
Nightbaron @1557

The second list was not a list of confirmed abducted sisters. Saerin took a census after the attack. There is a list of every woman in the White Tower with notes next to "many" of them. "Black, escaped. Black, captured. Taken by the Seanchan."

Egwene then thinks that every person on Verin's list was seen "alive and healthy" after the attack.

Egwene then seemingly contradicts herself thinking that every person on Verin's list is accounted for: captured, executed (weren't all the captured sisters executed?), fled on the day of her ascension, taken by the Seanchan (she just said they were all seen after the attack), or had been out of the tower for some time.

Then the three names are not on Verin's list and either disappeared or captured. But Evanellein should be on this list as well. As should all the captured sisters.

There's either a misstep here, or a clue.

blocksmith @1560

Good catch on Evanellein. The 25 of the 40 were not BA, or at least, none of them were on Verin's list. Everyone on Verin's list was seen alive and healthy after the attack.

Maybe the 40 were known to have been taken, but it seems unlikely, since it is implied the 40 came from the census (i.e. they were missing).
T C
1565. Freelancer
Ok, taking notes. I'll see what I can do, but this is beginning to look like I'll have to co-opt folks in the signing line to get them all in...

And you know what, I'm thinking that Leigh is just lurking here. As long as we're keeping ourselves busy on this post, why should she work on a fresh one? The twitching needs to accelerate, and soon, or she'll just extend her "vacation".
R B
1566. MasterAlThor
amw....

I had to go through all the post to find what I was refering to.

amw @ 811
Freelancer responded at 827
SoneA responded at 814

Neither of these responded to the Egwene question.

amw@1147
Eswana responded at 1149
Freelancer responded at 1158

Both answered but didn't really answer.

Sorry, I had to make sure the taint wasn't affecting me.

So to answer your question. My thoughts are Egwene is just supposing. We have more info about who Messana is that she does. A lot of us believe that it is that Brown sister Danelle(?)

We could be wrong. Evanellein is the only one of the three corrrect? Are Javindhra and Pevara the others? If so we happen to know where they are.

I don't know that I can be of anymore help than that.
Thomas Keith
1567. insectoid
Free @1565: Well, I haven't thought of anything better than "Will Moiraine be in the next book?" Certainly nothing that won't earn me a RAFO.

But then, maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough. :)
Kurt Lorey
1568. Shimrod
@1561 RobMRobM, got me thinking about theories this afternoon, looney theories in particular. So here's mine for the day.

Anybody ever consider that Asmodean is beyond the Dark One's reach because he was somehow redeemed when he died (kind of like Kari al'Thor)?
T C
1569. Freelancer
amw,

I've noted each of the four times you raised those points, but as you well know, there's nothing in the book to help answer your questions, and no good inferences can be drawn, even indirectly. So, while I will give it my best shot to raise the issue, other than word from Brandon there's no value in you asking it yet again in this forum, because nobody here has more than a wild guess.


Samadai@1559

Books not handy, so have to do this from inference. Mesaana would have no motivation to "clue in" the SGs to go to Tear after the Black sisters. See, it seems she's the one who sent them. Lanfear, on the other hand, was all about messing with everyone else's plans, just so she could have Lews Therin to herself. So, setting up a "trap" that was obviously a trap sends the SGs on their way to Tear, but armed with awareness that it's a setup. Everybody gets trouble that way. That's got Lanfear fingerprints all over it.

Also, don't we get a glimpse regarding who had disguised as Else? Too busy to check enc-wot just now, could some other person play guru for a moment?
Wilson Grooms
1570. alreadymadwithDanelle
MasterAlThor @1566

Yeah, I saw the responses, but no real answers.

The belief that Danelle was Mesaana was partly based on the fact that she wore bronze. Now that she's wearing white, there's even less evidence in what wasn't a very strong case to begin with.

The three sisters on Egwene's list have never been mentioned by name prior to the epilogue.

Also, I just noticed from the FAQ (Robert Mee, Bailey's Crossroads signing, VA, January 23, 2003) that RJ said we have seen Mesaana's alter ego, which rules out all three sisters on Egwene's list. Hmm.... Also, we don't have a physical description of Evanellein, so there isn't really any evidence to suggest she is Mesaana (and RJ said we should be able to figure it out).

I guess Egwene just being wrong would be an answer, but it doesn't really address why she is internally inconsistent in her thoughts.

Freelancer @1569

I keep hoping I'm missing something and someone smarter than me will spot it. And getting other people's wild guesses is exactly the point of theorycrafting.
Wilson Grooms
1571. theoryman
Hmmm, my theory is quite unusual.

I think that Rand could channel the TP in this book because he was becoming the "incarnation" if you will of the Dark One...

If you think about it, especially after the semirhage incident there are several comments about the "shadow" that seems to be around him, also in the scene with Tam he specifically mentions how the room got "Darker" when Rand enters.

Even earlier in the book you get the impression that Rand, in his effort to become harder, starts to care less and less. Not only suppressing these feelings but REALLY stopping to care for the lives of others.

Since there are 2 books left i´m not sure that this is it but my main theory is that the "Last Battle" was actually when Rand confronted "himself" on top of Dragonmount and brought himself back from the brink of destroying the world. (by the way, he was actually standing on his own grave at the time). Another reason that I suspect that this might be the case is the prophecy that goes something like "The great battle done but the world not done with battle". There will still be a major showdown in the coming books but I think that the Dragonmount scene was the TRUE last battle.

Hack away at these very,very flimsy suspicions..:-)
Sam Mickel
1572. Samadai
Freelancer,

That is almost what I meant. I know Lanfear likes to Mess other peoples plans up to affect her own. That is why it could be likely Mesaana was posing as Else, to get the girls to fall into her and Be'lals trap. Remember Liandrin knew they were coming, and Mesaana is the most likely one to let her know.
There is no point of view from any forsaken about posing as Else. And nowhere to my knowledge is it proved definitively that Lanfear was her. Although it is possible, I agree. I was just trying to think outside the bunker
Ron Garrison
1573. Man-0-Manetheran
re. Else Grinwell

From the Tar Valon Library: "Lanfear pretends to be Else to set Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne on a the trail of the Black sisters on their way to Tear (TDR, Ch. 25). Later we find out that the real Else has been sent home ten days earlier (TDR, Ch. 29).

re. Evanellein's appearance

"Only a rumor," the Gray sister replied. Her silk dress, matching the fringe on her shawl, was finely cut and scooped low at the neck. Often Elaida thought the woman should have been Green, so concerned was she with her looks and clothes. "Almost everyone in those poor lands is a refugee, including those who might send news. The Panarch Amathera has apparently vanished, and it seems an Aes Sedai may have been involved... " (Evanellein to Elaida; The Fires of Heaven, Prologue).

Sure doesn't give me a clue other than we know the Foresaken to be extremely vain. Anyone else?
Wilson Grooms
1574. Tinaaa
On Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne.

Am I right that Fortuona (really don't like the new name BTW) is now that throne personified? Would Rand - now that he has his nice mojo back - not out of common courtesy bow to her as Mat's wife? This would fufill prophesy nicely would it not?

I raise your 21 yr old Balvenie with a 16 yr old Lagavulin Single Malt. I just adorrre living in Bonny Scotland!
Don Barkauskas
1575. bad_platypus
@1573:

But that doesn't address why they draw their conclusion about Lanfear, so it's not very helpful.

@1569:

No inference needed; Lanfear drops her Illusion disguise and Egwene sees her. Unless Mesaana looks identical to Lanfear or replaces the Else disguise with a Lanfear disguise, it was Lanfear.

alreadymadwithDanelle @1570
I guess Egwene just being wrong would be an answer, but it doesn't really address why she is internally inconsistent in her thoughts.
IIRC, Egwene even thinks to herself that none of those three quite fit, so she's aware of a problem with her evidence/reasoning.
Sam Mickel
1576. Samadai
Man-o-Manetheren,

I am not saying that Mesaana was posing as Else, only the possibility that it could have been her.

I respect all those sites and what they have to say and they are probably right. But nowhere in the books (that I can recall) does it state for certain that it was Lanfear posing as Else. If someone has seen a posting from RJ or remember where in the book it states that Lanfear was posing as Else I would be satisfied.

Like I said to begin with it is just another theory outside the bunker
Wilson Grooms
1577. Nightbaron
Going from memory, as I don't have the books here, but the evidence that Else was Lanfear was that

1) we knew Lanfear was roaming the White Tower at that time, as she visited Mat in his room

and

2) the chapter where Else meets with Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve has the Lanfear icon (Moon & Stars).

I can't remember any other evidence, but it IS interesting to revisit that event and look at it again with the information we have now.
Wilson Grooms
1578. Nightbaron
Adding: I see bad_platypus replied with the actual evidence; Egwene meeting Lanfear after Else turns a corner. Totally forgot that one!
Wilson Grooms
1579. little minion
RobMRobM @1561

Doubtful. Even if Tallanvor does die defending Morgase, it would be so weird to have a Tam/Morgase and Rand/Elayne (etc) pairing.

Or perhaps they like keeping it in the family...

Ick.
Ron Garrison
1580. Man-0-Manetheran
You are right Samadai, nowhere does it say for certain that it was Lanfear. However, we have encountered Lanfear numerous times dressed in silver and white, and that is the description of the person who Egwene ran into in the hall. So either it was Lanfear or RJ was deliberately misdirecting us.
Ambrose Scalvini
1581. MagicDragon
A thought came to me last night about who Messana might be, well not specifically but how she could still be in the tower unnoticed. I have seen guesses from one of the sisters that ran, to accepted and novice, even a sister that took the oaths but had a way to overcome the oaths. The last I find unlikely as in the Age of Legends the oath rods were used to bind criminals that could channel to stop their criminal acts. I don't see anyone during the AoL including the Forsaken trying to find a way negate the effects of the oath rod.
My idea is simple, none of the above, she is there as a servant. Mogheidien taught Elayne and Nynaeve how to mask their ability to channel, I think it is safe to assume Messana knows this trick as well. Masking her ability and posing as a servant she could roam the WT and no one would pay her any attention.

RobM 1561
You raise some good points, I've always felt Tallanvor was a bit young for Morgase anyway. Tam told Rand that she was with Perrin's group so he has already recognized her. I don't recall in any of the previous books about Tam and Morgase actually meeting 'on screen' but that may just be my memory failing again. lol. I don't see Tam hooking up with Leane or any AS as that would mean bonding him a warder and often on the move. I have pictured Tam as a farmer and happy to be so, only fighting out of loyalty and doing what was needed...perhaps when he was younger he also craved a bit of adventure and a chance to see the world. I wouldn't want to see Tallanvor dumped but I think going down fighting protecting Morgase would be a good end. And yes to seeing Tam 'on screen' showing some skill with the blade would be interesting. I gotta disagree about the living in Caemlyn, as I said I see Tam as a farmer and the way Morgase left it might be, politically speaking, better if she didn't go back to live there.
Wilson Grooms
1582. Nightbaron
My two cents on the Tam-Morgase thing:

It's an interesting theory, however I have to address "Tam needs a permanent partner, or there won't be a happy ending." from RobMRobM's explanation @1561;

I don't think one needs to be in a serious relationship to have a "happy ending", and maybe Tam can stand in for us happy single guys at the end!
Wilson Grooms
1583. dweeb
Haven't Read all FOURTEEN HUNDRED PLUS comments to see if I'm alone ... but isn't that the same essential cover "art" work as TDR???
T C
1584. Freelancer
amw@1570

There is far more (all circumstantial, true) evidence for Danelle than simply a bronze dress.
- Danelle has no friends in the Tower, is not well known by anyone
- A Brown, with big blue eyes and an often dreamy expression
- Danelle has no position of authority within the Tower
- Danelle brought the masons who were not masons to the Tower for the coup against Siuan
- Danelle is in the group that came to shield then still Siuan and Leane (could easily have been the one to murder Alric)
- Danelle is among Elaida's "council" after her installation as Amyrlin
- Danelle has a habit of absentmindedly tapping her fingernail to her lips

Most importantly, she is not on Verin's list. You say that isn't evidence. I say it is. If Danelle were Black, given all of the above, she would have made it onto Verin's list. Unless she were not Black, but in fact a forsaken. She would never report to a heart, never reveal herself as Black to another sister. I doubt more than a very few ever knew that Mesaana was around the Tower.

A much stronger case than for anyone else, I believe. Especially including that Jordan has stated that Mesaana's alter ego has been seen.


theoryman@1571

This story, in very many ways, is quite traditional in its adherence to the fantasy adventure genre. Within that milieu, there is no way in any of the infinite worlds of "if" that Rand al'Thor is an incarnation of the ultimate evil. He was in danger of allowing the darkness to outweigh the Light in his soul, but that is all.


Samadai@1572

After "Else" leaves, and Egwene runs outside to chase her, she runs into Lanfear. So beautiful it stunned Egwene and made her feel like a little girl, adorned in white and silver, black hair. Now before you say that Mesaana just disguised herself as Lanfear for a moment to fool Egwene, none of the SGs had come in contact with Lanfear before this, wouldn't know one forsaken from another. Also, it is just like Lanfear to "be herself" for such a moment, and push Egwene on her way with a tiny nudge of Compulsion. (If you read that scene again, Egwene later couldn't understand why she'd obeyed the beautiful woman's command to go away) It would be unlike Mesaana to disguise as Lanfear in such a situation. Nah, it was Mierin.
Maiane Bakroeva
1585. Isilel
Samadai @1576

nowhere in the books (that I can recall) does it state for certain that it was Lanfear posing as Else.

Except that Egwene follows Else at some point in TDR, loses her out of sight behind a corner for a minute and then runs into a stunningly beautiful, tall woman with dark hair and eyes, dressed in white. Certain enough for me.

So, why are the TAS BAs merely "captured" and not executed already?
And why weren't novices/Accepted tested also?

Finally, why is Egs sitting in her study alone and then wandering the corridors with just her Keeper?

Any safety is illusionary, surely, what with Travelling and with the fact that non-channeling DFs could still move freely through the White Tower.

Frankly, if I was the Shadow, my next move would be trying to kill all the channelers of the "cleansed" WT. Drop some cyanide in their food, for instance.

And they really need to come up with something to protect against Travelling ASAP. It was always difficult to suspend disbelief re: Rand using Travelling to such a great effect, but Shadow failing to do the same _and_ failing to defend against it.

Ditto the Pattern being in such flux - from what we have seen in Columns in TSR the reality wasn't in such a sorry state during the War of Power. There must be a way to reduce the bubbles of evil et al.
Leslie Annis
1586. Lannis
Okay, I don't have my book here (sister's borrowing it), so please help me, guys... where is Danelle? I don't recall her ever being mentioned in tGS... I'm guessing still in the WT, seeing how she's our best candidate for Mesaana (IMO), but I'm pretty sure I would have noticed her name pop up somewhere, gongs going off and all... but I don't remember seeing it anywhere... anyone? Pretty please? Thank ye kindly! :)
Ron Garrison
1587. Man-0-Manetheran
While refreshing my memory of the whole Lanfear/Else issue, I happened upon a chapter just before (TDR 21) where Egwene first wonders if Verin might be Black. Then she dismisses the idea. It's also where Verin tells her about Tel'aran'rhiod and gives her the t'a ring. There is also a great passage about Moridin "Betrayer of Hope".

"Heart of the Dark. Ba'alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope. Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth. A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark? Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is -"
Wilson Grooms
1588. Silvertip
@Freelancer:

Cool! I was hoping somebody would take a whack at the whole good-depending-on-evil structure that I and others have erected!

If I understand your two posts correctly, you're drawing a distinction between the WoT cosmology discussed @1416, in which the saidin/saidar and possibly Light/Darkness dichotomies drive the Wheel, and our own Universe, which you argue @1484 has good that exists independently.

That's certainly an important distinction; I at least was specifically talking about WoT-verse above (way back @785). Interestingly, there are places in WoT where, even in physics as opposed to metaphysics, darkness as an active force (no!no! not darktrons! [covers head with arms] ) seems to exist. I'm thinking of the darkness that seems to spread from Ishamael when he attacks Moiraine in the Heart of the Stone, and that is observed around Rand at various points in tGS. Maybe even more explicit is the description of the Ways, in which lantern light (I'm paraphrasing from memory) seems to disappear into the darkness more quickly and thoroughly than it should, as if the darkness were a force that consumes it. For all that one doesn't exactly expect fantasy novels to slavishly follow the laws of physics as we find them in our world, that simple description was always particularly jarring to me. Women using only their minds to channel the forces underlying reality to light fires and blow sh-- up, fine; but light itself behaving nonphysically, whoosh.

You make an excellent point about most "evil"-doers having convinced themselves that they're doing rightly -- that's actually the biggest single way in which fantasy books diverge from reality, IMHO. However, I'm still not convinced that some measure of our appreciation for moral and ethical actions doesn't come from at least knowing the possibility of their opposite. It comes down to free will (and by the Light, I am not opening *that* can of tomatoes): I have the choice to, say, return a wallet I find lying on the sidewalk or to keep the cash for myself. If I didn't have that choice, if I didn't have the possibility of doing the wrong thing, what would it mean to praise me if I did the right thing?

And we are now well above my pay grade on the metaphysics/philosophy end of things, so I'll stop now while I'm not too far behind. For WoT, bottom line, I think you and Herid Fel are right: at the end of AMoL, I expect the Dark One to be alive and intact, but locked inside a prison that has been restored to its pure state.

Thanks!

S
Barry T
1589. blindillusion
MagicDragon@1581 re: Tallanvor being too young for Morgase...let us take a look:

Morgase was born in 957NE and is 43 years old. Tallanvor was born between 963-965NE and is 35-37 years old. In the grand scheme of things this is not much of an age difference.

But let's look at some of the other relationships in the WoT (these being their ages at present time, not necessarily when the relationship took place):

Morgase-43 / Thom (circa 930 NE) around 70
- My belief is Thom is younger than this though.
I'd say late 50's to early 60's.

Morgase-43 / Bryne-50
- The man is a little older than the woman, so
probably no objections here.

Rand-21 / Elayne-18
- Some may frown, but in a few years no one will
care.

Rand-21 / Avi-19(20?)
- See above.

Rand-21 / Min-24(25?)!!
- GASP ~ the woman is older? The shame.

Siuan-42 / Bryne-50
- Man only 8 years older than the woman? At their
age it's a non-issue (blah)

Moiraine-44 / Thom-70(?)
- Well, at his age he's lucky, right, right?

Perrin-21 / Faile-16-20(?)
- If she's 16 then damn Perrin, that's wrong. If
she's 20 then no one cares.

Mat-21 / Tuon-19
- See Rand/Avi...not an issue.

Nyn-27 / Lan-47
- Let's say Lan were 30. Nyn would be 10. Let that
thought roll around in your head.

Morgase-43 / Tam-60(?)
- 17 year difference? Well, in this crowd, eh.

Now, why did I do all this? Besides being bored, I did it to ask the question, "What does age matter?" Also, if the man is younger than the woman, the relationship seems less likely? Why does Tallanvor seem too young for Morgase when we all truly love the Lan/Nyn relationship.

Age is just a number.

Now, as to the Morgase's future relationship possibilities...I don't really have any thoughts. I'd like to see her with someone who will treat her well. I'd also like to see Tam with someone who will treat him well. I've never really cared much for Tallanvor's character, but I see no fault in him...so why does he have to die?

Blah. Age, like time, is a man-made concept.

(I took these ages from the 13thD.)
Wilson Grooms
1590. alreadymadwithliptap
Lannis @ 1586

The last time we saw Danelle was in the prologue of aCoS. Alviarin passed her in the hall.

I agree she is the most likely candidate to be Mesaana, I'm just saying it's pretty slim evidence. Also, I'm pretty sure we don't see Danelle tap her lip. Mesaana does, but so do many other characters.
Wilson Grooms
1591. Silvertip
A small postscript to my last comment. I've always given RJ major props because, although he does have Sauron-type BWAHAHAHA-evil characters (DO, Forsaken, shadowspawn, ...) he also includes people who do harm while (because) they've convinced themselves they're fighting for the good. I'm thinking of the Whitecloaks, but also of Aridhol. Do we all have too much experience with people like the Whitecloaks, committing all sorts of fiendish acts in the belief they're doing the work of the Creator? Oh yes ...
Sam Mickel
1592. Samadai
Just to be stubborn,

If it was Lanfear that she ran into chasing after Else, how come in all her later view points(like when she is thinking about how powerful Lanfear was) she doesn't say anything about them being the same person. I don't believe she would have forgotten something as feeling like she was compulsed. She specifically states "if I didn't know better I would have thought she used compulsion on me". Or something to that effect. If Lanfear had no time or desire to alter her appearance from her true self then Egwene would certainly remember seeing the most beautiful women in the world before. and it was stated by Mesaana that she helped Bel'al set up the trap.
Matthew Smith
1593. blocksmith
Alreadymadwithlists@1564

You may be right, but examine the quotes again. She previously describes the 40 as being taken by the Seanchan. She later than states that all the BA on Verin's List were either executed, captured, fled, or were taken by the Seanchan. That means at least some (maybe not all) of the 25 AS taken were black.

MasterAlthor@1566

Javindra and Pevara were not on Eg's list of three. The three are Nalasia Merhan (brown), Teramina (green) and Jamilila Norsish (red). I was trying to understand if that meant Javindra and Pevara were on the list as fled. They were known to be gone from the WT before the attack, but no one has provided Eg with an explanation that we, the readers, have been privy to.
Wilson Grooms
1594. FirstTimeCommenter
-1593 blocksmith

I believe the Pevara/Javindra disappearance is due to the secret Red Ajah mission they were sent on that Egwene doesn't know about.

Us readers have a pretty good idea it has to do with Bonding Ashaman though.
Matthew Smith
1595. blocksmith
FirstTimeCommenter@1594

Thank you...you are correct that we the readers are aware of their mission but we are not sure if Eg has been informed, thus the doubt as to what category Eg has put them in.
Hurin Smells
1596. HurinSmells
So I saw the tralier for 2012 last night and it got me thinking... I know BS has said he plans to get aMoL done for release in NOV'11, but has also said he intends to take the time to do it right. So I think we may be in for a MAR'12 release. Given that, perhaps the Mayan Calendar was minunderstood to indicate the end of time in 2012, but was actually predicting the end of THE WHEEL OF TIME!

Dun dun dun!!!!

:)

nearly 1600 posts broke my brain.
Barry T
1598. blindillusion
HurinSmells@1596

::nods:: It shall be a momentous day in history when the Wheel is complete.
Barry T
1599. blindillusion
The Dark One did it, I swear.
Barry T
1600. blindillusion
Because I sure didn't expect a Triple Post from one click of the mouse.

Guess it's my own personal 3-in-1

(1600...yay?)
Wilson Grooms
1601. alreadymadwithnumerology
blocksmith @ 1593

Read my response at 1564 again. She does seem to imply that some on Verin's list were taken by Seanchan, but RIGHT BEFORE THAT, she says every Black sister on Verin's list was seen alive and healthy after the Seanchan attack.

In fact, she specifically laments the fact that 60 Black Ajah on Verin's list escaped AFTER the Seanchan attack.
Sam Mickel
1602. Samadai
What are the names of the boxes that the Forsaken keep finding old things in?
T C
1603. Freelancer
Yes, I believe that Tarna and Pevara went to the Black Tower to ask Taim about bonding Asha'man in balance for the sisters bonded in the failed raid. Too bad, Pevara was decent for a Red.


Samadai@1602

Stasis boxes.
Captain Hammer
1604. Randalator
alreadymad@1555

"A Darkfriend?" Selene said mockingly. She sounded amused, not angered. She sounded contemptuous. "One of those pathetic followers of Ba'alzamon who think he will give them immortality and power? I follow no one. There is one man I could stand beside, but I do not follow."

[...]

You need not be a puppet for the White Tower or prey for Ba'alzamon's Darkfriends.


(TDR, ch. 20)

Granted, Lanfear must lie to Mat here. But as with her contempt towards Aes Sedai in TGH, that part of her statement rings very very true.


Isendre thought she was dealing with simple Friends of the Dark.
(TSR, ch. 58)

Again Lanfear makes a distinction - Darkfriends simple run of the mill baddies, Forsaken off the scale...not just Darkfriends.


Friends of the Dark — Darkfriends they were called, now — had begun learning just how strictly they would be kept to their vows now that Rahvin and the others were freed.
(TFoH, Prologue)

Rahvin, too, considers Darkfriends as a faction seperate from the Forsaken and not a general term for "Great Lord"-er.


"The Dark One," Rand broke in sharply around his pipestem. The Great Lord of the Dark was what Darkfriends called the Dark One. Darkfriends and the Forsaken.
(TFoH, ch. 03)

Interestingly, even Rand sees the Forsaken as something else than just Darkfriends.


Suddenly, it occurred to her that this fellow knew a great deal for a Friend of the Dark, especially one not many years past twenty.
(ACoS, ch. 25)

Another indication from Moghedien that the Forsaken don't consider themselves Darkfriends. Otherwise her statement considering the general out-of-the-loop-ness of Darkfriends doesn't make that much sense.
T C
1605. Freelancer
Randalator,

So, what you're allowing with those well-gained quotes, is that Mesaana (coughDanellecough) could take the first Oath, then state that she is not a darkfriend, and be telling the truth as she believes it.

As an interesting parallel to this, when Rand first encounters Selene on the other world, he asks if she is Aes Sedai. She shows immense contempt and declares that she is not. Now, I know she is free to lie to him, but it seems fair to say that she hasn't considered herself Aes Sedai since turning to the shadow. If one of them could say truthfully that they aren't Aes Sedai, when they most assuredly had been, how easy to say that they are not darkfriends?
T C
1606. Freelancer
blindillusion@1589

I believe Harriet is on record somewhere recently, stating that Faile is closer to Perrin's age than to Ewin Finngar, and that an adjustment to the text is prepared for the next release of that volume. Call her 18/19.

Maybe it was one of the other members of Team Jordan. I'll bet it can be found on Dragonmount.


And time is not a man-made concept. The increments by which we choose to measure time might be, but not it's existence nor passage. Time is an essential building block of the universe within which we operate. If you claim that's man's doing, I'm calling for the happy van.
Barry T
1607. blindillusion
Freelancer@1606

Yes, I know, though I don't recall where I heard the statement either. But there are still many, many people that believe Faile is only around 17 now. And I wanted to stick close to the source material I was using, which is why I didn't start putting Thom's age at late 50's to early 60's.

RE: time - Of course the past, present and future exist, as does the line that connects them...we can even call it time, I suppose.

But it seems to me that most/some people view time as that which can be divided into segments, placed into a calander, viewed by a watch, assinged an age and sent on its merry little way. I find that concept laughable, though sadly I too have to subscribe to it.

I just don't consider myself to be 28 years old. Some days I feel very young and others I feel ancient.

Edit to add the bit about time. Didn't read your whole post Free..my bad.
T C
1608. Freelancer
Silvertip@1588

Yes, it is a thing that causes me some tiny grief about this story, that darkness is given a presence of power. Just as you noted, the Ways with their inhibition of light, and the halo of darkness around Ishamael early on, and Rand once he touched the True Power, are clear demonstrations of shadow overpowering light. Events which are inherently impossible except as illusion.

Some will say that I cannot make such a blanket statement, that there must be worlds where our physical laws don't operate. Only between the pages of a book.
Leslie Annis
1609. Lannis
Freelancer and blindillusion: re: Faile's age...

It was actually R.Fife who asked and Maria who answered... scroll down to the paragraph after the photo of Richard in the yellow shawl posing with Brandon and Harriet...

No, this isn't a rickroll, I promise! :)
T C
1610. Freelancer
BillinHI@1551

Just noticed your comments there, not sure how I missed them before.

I've played Makaha West. And the Army/Navy course, and Kaneohe. I'm a hack, but golf is a sure cure for perfectionism.

Readdressing the Seanchan objectives for attacking the White Tower, they did indeed want to get the uber-powered explosive weave they believe the Aes Sedai possess, as well as Traveling. They will put some new damane (hope Elaida's among them) through the wringer trying to get them to show off the explosion weave, and they'll be wasting their time. Hah!


Blindillusion@1606

Your words; "But it seems to me", "I find", "I just don't consider", "I feel". All very empirical, hmm? Time is stable, if not quite a constant, whereas human emotions and sensations are so very unreliable. We all feel differently at different times, purely proving that as an unstable foundation for an argument of merit. Or, are you simply trying to prove that you've earned your nick? ::duck::

By the way, how do you figure I'm Chuck Norris? He'd have to jump to hit me above the chest. That he easily could is beside the point.


Lannis@1609

Thanks! I couldn't remember the specifics, only that I was pretty sure it was a Team Jordan answer. Good on you.
T C
1611. Freelancer
BTW, has anybody not yet noticed the post by Irene Gallo about the e-Book cover for The Great Hunt? You don't want to miss it.


::wave::
Roger Powell
1612. forkroot
One interesting thing about TGS, we finally had a major character die. This has been mentioned before of course, usually with a nod to WoT being the exact opposite of GRRM's stuff (wouldn't know myself.)

But when dear, sneaky Verin passed on I thought to myself: Gosh that's the first time that someone in the top 20 characters died (and stayed dead).

Which led me to consider who exactly would be considered the 20 most important characters in WoT?

Before I give you my list, let me state that my criteria for "important" were "screen time", "POV time", and impact on the plot. So, for example, the Creator doesn't count nor does the DO - even though they are the most "important" entities in the WoT world. Also, I considered the 12 books and New Spring as canon (which helps Lan make my top 10.)

Lastly, a soul only gets on the list once, so Rand and LTT get one slot.

So without further ado, here are my top 20 characters ranked by my subjective criteria.
1) Rand/LTT
2-5) Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nyaneve
6) Elayne
7,8) Moiraine, Lan
9, 10) Suian, Min
11) Elan/Ishy/Moridin
12) Verin
13,14) Thom, Avienda
15,16) Gawn, Galad
17) Cadsuane
18) Fain
19) Tuon
20) READER'S CHOICE

Choose from: Loial, Logain, Gareth Bryne, Lanfear, Morgase, Elaida, Faile

Three questions to you all:

#1) Who would you choose for #20?
#2) Which of the above is mis-ranked the worst
(feel free to tell me I did a good job)
#3) Which of the above will snuff it in the next two books?

So - let the slings and arrows begin. I have stocked the bunker with an adequate supply of food, single malt, and water; furthermore none of the above characters are in there with me (and you know who I mean.)

EDIT: Almost forgot... No subwoofer! You may not put Bela in the top 20.
john massey
1613. subwoofer
Ahem, sorry folks, to take a bit of a serious note and stray from my usual easy going self. Tomorrow I am going down to the legion to join some of the guys remembering what was. I attempted to put on my old uniform, but being in PPCLI, I was a lean bugger and literally, half the man I am now. God, it was the best of times and very real. You do get to see the character of men in times of war.

Anyways, this is my tribute to all the men serving. Also to my brothers in arms. To me, it is important to remember the sacrifice made by better men than me.

Thank you,

John.
Alice A
1614. Wetlandernw
Random notes...

Freelancer, I have a Brandon-question for you. Ask him for a middle initial we can use on here to avoid calling him (or his writing) BS. I sent him an email via his website, but either he hasn't got to it yet, or I forgot to enter my whole email address (which is entirely possible) so he couldn't respond.

I still keep seeing people use the word "compulsed" so I did a search... RJ never never ever used the word "compulsed" but he did several times use the word "Compelled" referring to the use of Compulsion. Check IdealSeek for the specific uses thereof. (Interesting note, that he didn't use anything other than "used compulsion" for the first 8 books or so, although he did use "compelled" in a more traditional sense as appropriate. It's only in the last two books that he specifically says someone had/may have/was Compelled.) So for those who just think it's fun to say compulsed, well, there's no help for it. But for those who ever actually wanted to know, there it is.

Y'all have just about made my head hurt with the discussion of Egwene's lists. I've been meaning to go back and reread that part to see if I could sort it out, but now I think I won't (other than as part of a normal re-read). Clearly it's no more... clear... when studied than when it was first read. Oh well.

Hi, everyone! Mostly just checking in...
Thomas Keith
1615. insectoid
Fork @1612: For the survey:

1) I'm gonna say it's a toss-up between Loial (who will have an important part at the Great Stump) and *gasp* Elaida (who is important, but for all the wrong reasons).
2) The list is fine, however... Sneaky Verin just about undid Ishy's Black Ajah...shouldn't she be above him?
3) Ishy and Fain have got to go, and maybe Cads (but not till she gives her hair thingies to Nyn).

I can't believe I said anything nice about Elaida.
*dives into bunker*
Wilson Grooms
1616. Hopper's Mum
Over 1600 comments, wow! I'm up to 901! Still haven't got the book, so the reviews are fulfilling some of the need. By the by, you know you've been reading too much WoT when your eyes see an email address @aol.com and your head reads Age of Legends dot com!
Keep it coming folks - till Leigh gets back, it's all I have till Christmas!
craig thrift
1617. gagecreedlives
Wetlandernw@1519

She had dreamed of Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.

Id say there will be another attack after Tuon figures out that aes sedai can use the one power as a weapon when they feel in danger.

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.

Possibly Alivia or Tuon but Im gonna throw out something a bit loony and say Tylee. Tylee will be involved in the next round of fighting for the White Tower and somehow becomes convinced that the seanchan needs to be allied with the White Tower for the last battle.

“Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken”

Still think this is the lion throne. Now that Morgase has been outed I wonder what she will say to Perrin who she thinks is one of Rands lackeys.

“Twice, right atop one another, she dreamed of taking [Gawyn] by the shoulders and trying to turn him to face the other way against his will. Once he brushed her hands away roughly; the other time she was somehow stronger than he. The two blended together hazily.”

Could be her trying to get Gawyn to leave her alone while she consolidates her power in the White Tower. Or possibly sending him back to Elayne.


forkroot@1612

I would try writing a list like yours but I would change my mind with rankings every 30 seconds.

For #20 with the options you gave us I would say Lanfear. She was pretty influential in the early books and she did sort of release the dark one.

As I said I would of changed my mind every 30 seconds but I think I would have Moridin and Fain higher. As the 2 big bads of Randland they are pretty influential in the story. I would of looked at including hopper and the finns for the development of Perrin and Mats characters.

Moridin, Cadsuane and Fain have all got massive targets on their backs.

Subwoofer I will check out the links when I get home tonight from work.
Hurin Smells
1618. HurinSmells
fork@1612 - Verin is only mostly dead! IMHO she'll be back as a Hero of the Horn once Mat get's his lips back on it :)
Leslie Annis
1619. Lannis
Freelancer @ 1610: Meh, you guys (as a group) are always quick to help me answer my questions... s'nice to be able to do the same. You're welcome. :)

@ HurinSmells: Verin is only mostly dead! BAHAhahaha!

@ Subwoofer, Freelancer, and all others out there who are serving, have served, or will one day serve our/your country... a big thank you for what you do (have done, or will do) for the rest of us! I know I appreciate the chance to do what I want to do--on any given day--without fear for myself or my family. Thank you!
Barry T
1620. blindillusion
Freelancer@1610

Well, guess that just depends on what you constitute as an argument. I'm not trying to get you to see my view of a word. I'm just stating a thought of mine. I would never try to press my views on anyone, which is why I don't tend to argue. But I also stick to my guns. Believe it or not, I've put a lot of thought into how I see the world.

When it comes to words why should I only subscribe to the definition in a dictionary? Shouldn't I be able to apply my own meaning to them as I see fit as long as I at least stay within the realm of the plausible?

Now, were I trying to argue a point, I would never use the word “I” so much. In fact, I doubt I'd reference myself much at all. Just offering you a different take on the world.

And speaking of emotions, how would it make you feel to know I believe there are only two of them?

As to my nick...I guess it depends on how you'd define such a concept as a blindillusion. (Disillusioned just seemed too plain and most people would of only seen the negative aspect of the word and assumed I'm disappointed all the time.)

In regards to you being Chuck Norris...a few years ago, back in my E3 days, my friends and I spent a good deal of the time we should have been fixing F-16s looking up silly crap on the Internet. Chuck Norrisms were some of them. JamesEdJones's comment about you controlling darktrons reminded me of the one I posted.

Finally, and forgive me if I misstep, but you seem to view the world in a fairly scientific light. I...don't.

------
And I would like to express my thanks to John@1613. To all my military brothers and sisters I wish a very calm, peaceful Veteran's Day.

Thank you to those who served before me and thank you to those who serve with me now,

Barry
Rob Munnelly
1621. RobMRobM
@1613 - Woof/John - thanks for the service. Unlike some Massachusetts folk, I do know some people in the Armed Forces and respect them very much. My wife's brother in law is a retired Air Force colonel who saw action as a MedEvac flight nurse in all major U.S. engagements since the late 80s; and the brother of my wife's other brother in law is a high level officer in U.S. special forces currently serving in Iraq.

Rob
Rob Munnelly
1622. RobMRobM
@1612 - You forgot Birgitte as no. 20.
T C
1623. Freelancer
subwoofer & all other veterans,

A crisp salute to all who serve/have served, to all who aid & support, and to all patriots of liberty the world over.

Take a big shrug and stretch, relax for a day, and know that you are loved and appreciated. That mountain will still be there on Thursday, and we know that you'll not hesitate to step back in under it.

Never forget those who have been lost doing their duty. Never forget what we have because of what they gave. Never forget what they left behind.
Rob Munnelly
1624. RobMRobM
Re Tam-Morgase, I don't see mid-late 50s to 43 as that big of an age difference. My S-i-L is mid-40s and is married to someone more than 20 years her senior. (The fact that I am only a decade younger than Tam has nothing to do with my opinion that a marriage to a relative youngun is AOK.) I also don't have a big ick (or even a little one) re single parents of a couple getting together themselves - perfectly natural IMO. Also, very convenient for babysitting the mutual grandkids.

I don't necessarily see Tam as returning to the farm after TG. I could easily see him as living somewhere close to his only son, in a quiet family-oriented life.

I also don't want to diss single people with the thought that Tam needs a bride - it is just thematically too perfect having Tam mentioned as most eligible bachelor in the Two Rivers in the first chapter or so of EOTW and then having that goal come to fruition in AMOL. If that's the case, than who is worthy of him? I'm open to creative suggestions.

Finally, while Tam shares Mat's concern with trusting AS too much, he is a blademaster, TG is coming and it's hard to envision him sitting on the sidelines. In that context, I could see him being bonded by an AS that he grows to love if Morgase doesn't happen. Leane, who is a newly adopted Green and interested in finding a warder worthy of her, and a redhead to boot, is an obvious possibility. If Siuan gets a new warder, why can't she?

Rob
Barry T
1625. blindillusion
Lannis@1609

Thank you for that. And you just have to love the way Maria put it:

Faile is about the same age as Perrin. She is not jailbait.


RobMRobM@1624

I think Tam/Leane would be a good match if for no other reason than I enjoy both characters.
Ed Dyer
1626. HumbleReader
I've finally caught up after 10 days of being just a hundred or so behind. Whew :-)

I think we saw foreshadowing of Verin's awesome hour of glory with Egwene, when Cadsuane commented on the letter Verin had left for Rand when she left the manor house after the battle with the trollocs (KOD 20) "A woman of many masks"
Roger Powell
1627. forkroot
RobMRobM@1622
You are right, Birgitte should have been one of the options for #20. There's a whole bunch of characters that I like (e.g. Rhuarc) that fall just a bit short, but Birgitte is important to the story and even gets POV time.

One of my other favorite minor characters, Leane, finally got a tiny POV in TGS. First time for her, but not quite enough boost to consider her a candidate for #20.

gagecreedlives@1617
Fain was a tough call because he doesn't get a lot of screen time; but I think we're all pretty sure he figures prominently in the resolution of the story.

Ishy was a tough one - I just couldn't take anyone out of the top 10 as they all have a huge screen time and POV time advantages over Ishy. OTOH he's extremely important to the story.

Another interesting tidbit - Almost all of the top 20 (including the candidates) were introduced in TEoTW or right at the beginning of TGH (Siuan, Verin, Lanfear). If Birgitte is added to the list, she first appears late in TGH.

Faile is a bit later in TDR then there's a huge gap until Cadsuane (ACoS, unless you want to count her appearance in New Spring.) Tuon is the latest major character to appear (WH).
Wilson Grooms
1628. Tgrant
So I was reading more about the mystery sword and where people think it comes from. This is old news to some of you, so move along. Lots of people think the sword is Artur Hawkwing's Justice and there is evidence to support that. I'm still not sure I like that, though. Why would Hawkwing's sword be THAT important? What connection did he have to the Dragon whatsoever? Further, the scabbard has dragons on it. Unless they made the scabbard when they gave Rand the sword, I don't know why Hawkwing's sword scabbard would have dragons.

I had another thought I haven't seen anyone mention, though someone prob has. Maybe the sword is a physical version of the flaming power sword he used to make. Maybe LTT had it made in the Age of Legends as a physical version to carry around, a symbol of who he was(though it seems it would probably have some cool powers of its own). So Rand would recognize it as a replica of his flaming sword. I don't think the flaming sword had herons on it, did it? Anyway, if anyone has some insight on that theory, if someone has disproved it, I will be eternally less obsessed if you inform me.

@1545 Randalator Yes, I like Ghostbusters too.
craig thrift
1629. gagecreedlives
forkroot@1627

Well Fain had a fair amount of screen time in the early books. Led the trollocs to the Two Rivers, the reason Rand went to Falme, gave Rand the second unhealable wound which gave Rand the idea on how to cleanse the taint and also the reason for Perrin going back to the Two Rivers and becoming lord golden eyes. Throw in the combination of Mordeth and you have anything involving Shadar Logath.

But its your list and as I said I dont think I could make a list that even I would agree on :)
Wilson Grooms
1630. daggers
re 1628
I'm almost positive the first time Rand uses the sword of flame it had the herons on it... but I don't have the book with me to double check but I;m fairly sure... wither that or I always pictured them there but I'm not sure why I'd do that.
Barry T
1631. blindillusion
Me@#### re: this

Away from the off-topic and back to the story...though I do so love the off-topic.

Here are some sections of Sealed to the Flame I found interesting:

~1~
The woman's time as head of the Blue Ajah's eyes-and-ears had taught her to be parsimonious with information, doling it out like a stingy employer on payday.

The way Egwene thinks of this just seems a little too modern to me. Eh, no biggy really, but it took me out of the story for a moment...which doesn't happen often.
~2~
She had to be as logical as a White, as thoughtful as a Brown, as passionate as a Blue, as decisive as a Green, as merciful as a Yellow, as diplomatic as a Gray. And yes, as vengeful as a Red, when necessary.

Now, either Egwene is being disrespectful here, or this is how she sees the Red Ajah. My question would be in what way are the Reds arbitrators of vengence?

Also, this is a nice follow-through on the Sisters earlier in the novel wanting Egwene to join their respective Ajahs. While she is of no Ajah she shows here that she is of all of them. Which is exactly what the Amyrlin should be.

Perhaps this should be the precedent from here on out, i.e. choosing a strong Accepted to take the position of Amyrlin.
~3~
We never should have let Elaida disband the Blue Ajah, Jesse thought. The Blues might have been willing to come back, had it not happened. But it was such a dishonor that they dug in. Light only knew how dangerous that was; the histories were filled with accounts of how dogged the Blues could be at getting their way, particularly when they were back into a corner.

It's just a nice nod to the Blues. Very cool.
Wilson Grooms
1632. Browniesb
Well child, remember that even a blackthorn bush has flowers sometimes, beautiful and white among the thorns.

Verin Sedai to Egwene in their first conversation,

TGH 176
Henry Loose
1633. schrodinger
that seems to be a fitting epitaph for Verin... nice find Browniesb.
Wilson Grooms
1634. Doomgiver
Maybe this isn't that important, but does anyone remember the comment (I think from TDR) about 'the greatest treasure in the world' being in the Mountains of Mist? Is it coincidence that the ToG is also in the MoM?

Also, if Tam marries Leane, will Rand have to call her 'Mom'?
Captain Hammer
1635. Randalator
Doomgiver@1634

Maybe this isn't that important, but does anyone remember the comment (I think from TDR) about 'the greatest treasure in the world' being in the Mountains of Mist? Is it coincidence that the ToG is also in the MoM?

It is coincidence. Especially that part where it isn't in the Mountains of Mist at all...
j p
1636. sps49
subwoofer @1613-

I hear ya! Uncle Sam decided to measure me for all my non-utility uniforms late in boot camp, when I was a size not seen since junior high. Which means they NEVER fit me on the few occasions I was allowed outside. I couldn't get them on at all today!
Barry T
1637. blindillusion
Doomgiver@1634

The Tower of Ghenjei isn't in the Mountains of Mist. It's approximate location can be found here, in what appears to be Caralain Grass.

And also, isn't this topic in reference to the time Perrin was trying to send Faile on a false trail to discover the Horn of Valere?

From The Dragon Reborn, The Falcon

"I've heard stories of something behing hidden in the mountains." Would she believe him. He had never been good at lying. "The stories did not say what, but it's supposed to be the greatest treasure in the world, so maybe it is the Horn.


Yes, the false trail.
~~~
Also, I could see him calling her Mother. =)

edit: Opps, didn't mean to step on your toes there Randalator@1635.
Noneo Yourbusiness
1638. Longtimefan
My question about Tam being married off is "Why?"

He has been a bachelor for almost two decades. If he had intended to re-marry he would have made a move in that direction before now I would think. (then again it is a fictional character and that is just my opinion.)

It is possible that he remained single so Rand would not have to deal with a step-mother. It just feels like an odd motivation.

Even if he only digs foreign chicks the Two rivers had plenty of exotic women coming into town while he and Perrin were still there.

To me the "Tam must get married" movement has little to no motivation based on the material in the books but plenty from the reader interest.

If the story is putting Morgase and Tallanvor on a path to "happily ever after" then it will probably continue that way. It does with everyone else. Except for Egwene and Galad. That is an example of two people making eyes and nothing coming from it.

Lini is available so why is no one hooking Tam up with Lini?
Aidan Young
1639. aidanyoung1102
Here are my adjustments to the list:

1) Rand/LTT
2-5) Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nyaneve
6) Elayne
7,8) Moiraine, Lan
9) Elan/Ishy/Moridin
10)Fain
11)Thom

12,13) Suian, Min
14) Elaida
15) Verin
16) Aviendha
17) Lanfear
18) Tuon
19) Cadsuane
20) Faile

#1 and #2:

I think Fain and Ishy have had a huge impact on the overall plot and so I have to put them up there above anyone but the central characters.

I put Thom so high because he has saved the main characters so many times throughout the story, plus he's about to play another (hopefully) big role in ToM.

Elaida is responsible for SO MUCH BAD.

Honestly, 15-20 kinda blend into one for me.

But it's awesome that there have been so many significant characters in this series. What about Bashere, Rahvin, Moghedien, Taim, Suroth, Bayle Domon, Egeanin, Alviarin, Sammael, Halima, etc...

#3) Which of the above will snuff it in the next two books?

I think Lan dies. Sad.

If any of the main three die, I think it will be Perrin.

I think Moridin is the die part of "to live you must die"

I hope Fain bites it
Wilson Grooms
1640. Silvertip
No ... Rand has to call *Egwene* Mother, at least if he wants to show the new Amyrlin proper respect.

S
Barry T
1641. blindillusion
forkroot@1612

I thought your list was crafted quite well.

For you amusement, here is my own:

1) Rand
2) Elan/Ishy/Moridin
3-6) Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve
7) Elayne
8) Moiraine
9) Thom
10) Fain
11) Lan
12, 13) Siuan, Min
14) Verin
15) Avienda
16) Cadsuane
17, 18) Gawyn, Galad
19) Tuon
20) Loial

Who gets killed? Of the above? I'm gonna go with Thom to make way for the Tam / Moiraine match!! (Just kidding, just kidding. Thom will get his Aes Sedai.)

I hope none of them because I've never seen the need of killing off characters (well, the GGs at least).

But I'd say Cadsuane, Moridin (in some way, hopefully permanently this time), Rand (in some way, though he'll be back) and Fain.

Two interesting thoughts I'd like to put submit:

~1~ What is it with readers complaining that none of these characters die? It's kinda like being upset that a friend hasn't been killed yet, isn't it?..."Well, Tim has been to war twice now, in very dangerous situations both times, and he's still alive? I'm kind of upset, he should've been killed." Umm, huh?

~2~ What if the way to win the Last Battle is to kill Moridin, permanently? The DO loses its human surrogate for all Eternity, which would hamper its ability to do, well, anything.

And sure, lots of reasons ~2~ won't work, but still, it's interesting. Simply for the thought of how kill to him in such a way that he will not ever be Reborn.

edit:Moved Moridin to 2 because that's kind of where he belongs.
Rob Munnelly
1642. RobMRobM
@1638. Lini's significantly older than Tam, as she served Morgase's mother as well. So late 70s at best. But on merits Lini would be a good catch for anybody. Rob
Maiane Bakroeva
1643. Isilel
Blindillusion @1641:

What is it with readers complaining that none of these characters die?

Because if no important characters die, it is difficult/impossible to convince oneself that the danger was ever real.
I mean, if Evil can't even accomplish _that_, then ending the world seems to be quite beyond it's scope, no?

This is one of the greatest weaknesses of our beloved WoT. Many consider WoT villains to be completely ineffectual and nonthreatening, because all of their victories/villainies only succeed against faceless off-screen folks or are glories of the past.
TGS finally provided an intelligent, though wasteful plot of the Shadow and retroactively rehabilitated some of the past foolishness, but that's the only example besides Rand's abduction by Galina, which was clever in execution, if not in concept.

And still, Rand succeeding where LTT failed felt like somewhat of a cheat, because Rand was spared the event that broke LTT. He never killed anybody close to him.

Anyway, I really hope that some of our heroes die in TG. A great war without any irrevocable sacrifice from the good guys becomes nothing but a cartoon, robbed of all poignancy and heroism.

My candidates for the butcher's bill in the end:

Rand. TGS has certainly provided an alternative explanation for "he who is dead yet lives" and I began to believe again that he is not safe. Which is no mean feat and one of the reasons TGS is so awesome.

Or Perrin. He is the dutiful one, whose arc in many ways parallels Rand's. One of them will go, IMHO.

Egwene or Nynaeve. There were enough hints in TGS that those who burn brightly die young. Also, back in TSR Amys said that she had a Dream of Lan dying when he hears of Nyn's death. Now, a Dream is only a possibility, not certainity, but it is suggestive.

Lan. Either due to above or due to Min's vision of Nyn weeping over a grave.

Gawyn. IMHO, he is toast whether Egs lives or not. I just don't see a happily ever after for them. IMHO her Dream of a violent death for him was for when he becomes her Warder.

Siuan and Gareth. IMHO, she misinterpreted Min's vision (again), and feeling safe, will stay away from him for too long.
Her musings on what she'd like to do with her life in TGS were right along the lines of a soldier doing the same just before getting killed in war movies.

Cadsuane. Just because.

So, IMHO:

2 of the main characters

3 beloved secondary characters

2 less loved secondary characters

Their loss will provide the necessary gravitas to victory over the Forces of Evil.
Helen Peters
1644. Helen
As I think I'm catching up with the comments you lot post a few hundred more: I'm up to 1341 now, only (only) 300 behind still.

Apologies to sub/free/whoever it is getting upset about multiple posts, I did do a search and only came up with Seaine's name once on this thread. But even if this has been said I'm gonna say it again. Somewhere up there, waaay up there, before post 1341, someone commented about at the end when the ajah heads are discussing putting someone malleable on the amyrlin seat, so the ajah's could run the place. Seaine is the head of the white, isn't she? Well, 10 years (or so) ago, it was Seaine who proposed Siuan for the Amyrlin seat. ACoS, ch8, 'The Figurehead': Eg was thinking about age:
Rarely was anyone chosen Sitter before she had worn the shawl 70 or 80 years at least, and Amyrlins generally longer. Often much younger. So when the hall deadlocked between 4 sisters raised Aes Sedai less than 50 years before and Seaine Herimon of the White suggested a woman who had worn the shawl only 10 years, it might have been as much exhaustion as Siuan's qualifications in administration that brought Sitters to stand for her.
Or it could have been a plot by the Ajah heads. So the comment 'look how that turned out' was probably coz she ended up 'backing' the dragon reborn.
Or did everone know this already?

Edit to say: this is why I love these books, all the intricate details going back and forth over all the books. I'm only up to chapter 10 in my post TGS re-read of books 7 to 12 and there's already a couple of Verin comments that, in light of her TGS revelation, don't so much 'make more sense' but made me go 'aha'.
matt
1645. mattyh
@1644 helen

i don't think seaine is the white ajah head - ferane is.

however, you could still be right in that the ajah heads may have had a hand in getting the sitters to agree.
Captain Hammer
1646. Randalator
blindillusion@1637

edit: Opps, didn't mean to step on your toes there Randalator@1635.

Yes, you did! I know what you're up to. All of you in fact. But you won't succeed! Because the cheese doesn't wear me, I wear the cheese! Take that, Reptilians!
john massey
1647. subwoofer
@Lannis &all thanks

@sps49- yes, my beret seems to be my last vestige of my days gone by that still fits. Glad to see my head hasn't swelled too much;)

-Edit @Helen- let 'er rip, no offense taken:)

While we are compiling lists in the wee hours, here is mine.

1-3)Rand, Mat, Perrin
4)Moiraine
5-7)Eggy, Ny, Elayne
8-10)Lanfear, Demandred, Moridin
11)Bela!
12)Lan
13)Fain
14)Bashere
15)Rhuarc- if BS discovers him again.
16)Avi
17)Thom
18)Tuon/ O'Fortuona
19)Min
20)Hopper

Tripod- three main characters, they are linked and need each other to make this work.

Moiraine- she started it!

Eggy- Amrylin- hello? Ny- Wisdom. Elayne- Queen.

Lanfear- still alive. Demandred- Linked to Dragon/Wheel/Battle. Mor- linked to Rand.

Bela! Of course. Carried two Amrylins, has the heart of a lion, and is an awesome horse.

Lan- Represents all the Borderlanders.

Fain- lucky 13- Was in the first book. Has to be a reason he is still around.

Bashere- too strong a character and too powerful in his own right to be ignored.

Rhuarc- If BS rediscovers him, heck, rediscovers the power of the Aiel and how RJ wrote these secondary characters, will be a major player.

Avi- WO extraordinaire.

Thom- he was there to. And here he is, still influencing the boys.

Tuon- Seachan empire- major story arc- c'mon.

Min- figures out what Fel meant. Saves us all.

Hopper- dream world. Saves Perrin yet again. Wolves are cool.

For those who don't make it to the last page:

Lan&Ny. Blaze of glory.

Rand. Well, he is taking a beating here, and he has wounds that don't heal, like cancer. Death will be a release.

Thom. Mat is a bard in training. Will take up the craft. Thom and Morgase will go out together, Tal never had a chance.

If BS figures out how to write the Aiel, they will be the bulk of cannon fodder. Sulin, Bael, Amys, Rhuarc, and any other Maidens close to Rand.

Bashere- will pass the torch to Perrin.

Caddy- bound to happen. If not, I'm gonna write myself in and kill her with my bare hands.

And of course, a host of baddies bite it too.

Woof™.
Sara H
1648. LadyBelaine
Helen@1644

Sarcastro wrote a nice recap regarding the whole Ajah Head Conspiracy up at 697, oh, about a 1,000 posts ago :0

(it's also helpful to read: WOTFAQ 2.6.5: Who's Who in the Halls of the Tower; What’s the Mystery About the "Too-Young" Sitters?)

Seaine is not the Head White (or as I like to call it, Tete Blanche), Ferane is, so its unlikely that Siuan's ascension was one of those times that the Ajah Heads tried to run the Tower as a Cabal.

Siuan was supposedly picked because the Tower had just had a bunch of Amyrlins die in rapid succession, so they wanted a younger woman, and they kept deadlocking on the other candidates.
john massey
1649. subwoofer
Because this day calls for it. Let there be Peace for all.

Woof™.
Leslie Annis
1650. Lannis
Re: Cannon fodder and butcher bills...

IIRC, Brandon Sanderson said somewhere that there's a list of characters who kick it, so he gets to play the headsman...

Now, where I heard this? Um... s'lost somewhere in my travels... anyone have a link?

EDIT: I lied--or at least, I can retrace my steps enough to find it. Google is my friend.


From a Stormleader's Facebook note:

Here are some fan questions and Brandon’s quotes from during the signing.

“There are a surprising amount of deaths in the notes, so I get to play headsman” -Brandon
T C
1651. Freelancer
blindillusion@1620
Finally, and forgive me if I misstep, but you seem to view the world in a fairly scientific light.

I know it looks that way. In truth, I hold in contempt any "scientific" thinking that presumes to preclude the supernatural, the metaphysical, which may be clearly seen all around us. Science has its place as a method of viewing and understanding the physically observable world. But that place should never be elevated to presume to declare anything about the unobservable, the spiritual.

The discussion of a concept fails to retain value if there is not a common understanding of the concepts themselves. That is the essence and the beauty of language, a bridge of commonality without which no discussion of merit can even begin. So, I would have a difficult time maintaining an aircraft on course (or airborne, for that matter) if I decided that my personal definition of East, or up, needn't be as constrained as that of my navigation system.

To say that you reject the traditional definition of time is to say what then, precisely? These fleshly tabernacles which our souls inhabit reside within a natural universe of four physical dimensions; three of space, and time. One of the great and constant desires of humanity is that wish to "go back and do it over", and yet it cannot be so.

I do, of course, believe that there is an existence which is outside of time. But it is not experienced while we live and breath as we are now, in this temporal world of flesh and blood.


Re: Tam's future love life.
While considering this, I'm reminded of our heroes who have "paired up" to this point of the story. It seems that each of our major characters has gotten almost exactly the opposite of what they would have wished in terms of a significant other(s). I've spoken to this before.

Mat - Despises nobles. Can't stand people who are too serious. Likes women "with a bit of wiggle to them", preferably a bit older. And he gets Tuon. Boyishly slim, short, young, imperious, paranoid Seanchan Empress Fortuona.

Rand - Wanted Egwene. I should say that he wanted what he believed Egwene would become. An unassuming farmwife with whom to share a quiet life. And he gets a Princess, a warrior, an Oracle.

Perrin - Let's just say that a scheming, spying, hotheaded lioness wasn't his romantic goal.

Nynaeve - Harder to pin down, but easy to imagine that she wouldn't have been looking for someone more stubborn, more determined, more self-assured than she believes herself to be. Hello, uncrowned King of Malkier.

Thom - An Aes Sedai? Never in a million years. Or so he thought. Understood that it hasn't happened yet, but they two are players of the Game, and they'd been tiptoe-ing around this for a little while already. We know that Thom is hooked, and Moiraine addressed her letter to "My Dearest Thom".

Now what's humorous, is that Egwene and Gawyn seems to be the least contradictory pairing of the bunch, and theirs to date is the most dysfunctional.

All that to say this. I don't wish upon Tam any such trial.
Rob Munnelly
1652. RobMRobM
Re deaths,

Nyn and Lan will live and re-found Malkier. I will bet heavily on this outcome with cookies or other valuables.

Thom and Moiraine will live - who else will write the songs that make the whole world sing?

Rand will die but will be reborn, probably in Moridin's body.

Bashere, Tenobia, lots of Aiel, all the Foresaken (including Taim), Fain (please!), Cadsuane (please!), and most of the Green and Red Ajahs and some other AS. My expectation is that lsiel will not be happy with the body count among significant characters.

Rob
Rob Munnelly
1653. RobMRobM
Free - great insight. Under that theory, clear that the unassuming AS-distrusting farmer should get a queen or, in the alternative, an AS. R
Sara H
1654. LadyBelaine
RobMRobM1652:

"Thom and Moiraine will live - who else will write the songs that make the whole world sing?"

Bair e'Mannelow?
john massey
1655. subwoofer
@Rob- naaaaaw. I see Lan doing his "embrace death" thing and sheaths the sword within himself killing off a dreadlord or some such. Ny is close to his side but can't get to him in time so she pulls an LTT and pulls in a ton of Saidar and wipes out half the battle field.

Blaze of Glory. Malkier will live forever in hearts and minds and tales of yore.

"Thom and Moiraine will live - who else will write the songs that make the whole world sing?"
-Loial.

I think Tam has it figured out. Maybe, while it is ironic, he will take up with Leane and have a happily ever after.

Woof™.
T C
1656. Freelancer
Helen@1644

No worries. I don't get upset at someone raising a point already mentioned. It's more about the appearance of being lazy or inconsiderate, and you obviously are neither. Let that be my hangup, not yours. ;-)


Isilel@1643

There is another way to approach one's suspension of disbelief, in regards to no major characters dying. From a retroactive viewpoint, people who don't reach the end of a journey have less opportunity for input to the outcome of that journey. So for the most part, those who will turn out to play the largest parts in determining the final result are those who managed to survive all of the hazards along the way.

If, for example, Elayne had died in her first dangerous encounter of the story (let's say Liandrin didn't want her along for the trip to Falme through the Ways, and tossed her over the side into the abyss), then another character would have gotten her screen time, and we'd be complaining that that character always manages to survive against all odds.

So, with that perspective in mind, I don't get bothered about the seeming lack of realism in who lives (better to say who doesn't die).

And there are more than plenty of characters involved as it is, if there were a continually shifting flow of major characters due to deaths of current ones and introduction of new, well, egads.


LadyBelaine@1654

::groan:: To the corner with you, young lady.
Captain Hammer
1657. Randalator
re: deaths

Since TGS I have an inkling that Egwene will go down as "Tower-Healing Warrior Amyrlin of Awesome Badassery"(TM) during Tarmon Gai'don. Don't know why I do, it's just a very strong gut feeling.

Rand, well...token death/rebirth.

Fain, well...token Gollum.

Lots of Aes Sedai, among them Cadsuane. Her last lines will probably be "Now listen, you balefire stream. If you're swinging rapidly towards me, the least thing I expect is some respect and decent behav"

Gawyn. Just because.

Perrin. Sees Faile die, goes berserk/wolf-serk, kills a shitload of Shadowspawn/Darkfriends, gets overwhelmed, dead.

All Aiel minus the remnant of a remnant (a.k.a. Rhuarc + X).

Mat and Tuon will pull through. They still have an empire to secure.

Thom and Moiraine will live. She died once already and to abort the countdown towards a relationship in the final books is just bad. No payoff, no death.

Lan and Nynaeve. Screw the odds, they have a nation to repopulate!

Rand's threesome obviously have a funeral pyre to attend to.
Rob Munnelly
1658. RobMRobM
"Now what's humorous, is that Egwene and Gawyn seems to be the least contradictory pairing of the bunch, and theirs to date is the most dysfunctional."

I'd argue they fit the pattern as well: small village wisdom in training and all around self-assured ooh ooh girl with modest but conflicted Prince/warrior.

Also the Gareth-Siuan is a classic example of the same trend. Ditto re Julian Sandar and Thera.

Least conflicted pairing will be Galad and Berelain.
Rob Munnelly
1659. RobMRobM
Woof - good point re Loial, but I still think T and M will live and love. Re Lan-Nyn, per RJ Min's vision of Malkier baby with sword in hand was forward looking, so I expect that will happen after TG. And Tam-Leane looks like a fine outcome to me, among several of the other options.

Re the poster above about Tam staying single - I believe he focused all of his energy into raising his son. With Rand on his own, Tam needs something to live for and mere farming the back 40 and hanging out with Mayor isn't going to cut it.
Captain Hammer
1660. Randalator
RobMRobM@1658

Pairing Randland's hottest chick and a Whitecloak who should "abjure all pleasure, for goodness is a pure abstract, a perfect crystalline ideal which is obscured by base emotion."

Color me conflicted... *g*
john massey
1661. subwoofer
'K- Lan gets Ny preggers and then sheaths the blade thingy, shouts "for Frodo!". He's old to begin with and Ny will live for a long time. It would be like pairing a human with an elf. Ny lives and raises their son to be the true crowned king of Malkier.

Birgette dies and rejoins the Wheel, spinny out thingy, Heros of the Horn.

Gotta get going here. I see at least a couple of other main characters passing on too. This is an epic battle, to live up to the hype, no one can live forever and there has to be some sacrifice.

Woof™.
Kurt Lorey
1663. Shimrod
@1651 Freelancer, guru

Who you callin' "fleshy"?

@way too many

Who'd have thunk there would have been so many romantics around here? Starting to sound like some ten year olds I knew pairing up their Barbie dolls with some G.I.Joes.

;)
Tess Laird
1664. thewindrose
But Ken was such a wussy. G.I Joe much more, ahh fleshy;)
Rob Munnelly
1665. RobMRobM
@1663. Shim, you are just too funny. But not too surprising - we've spent 12 books with these folk, we want them to be happy after the books end.
Matthew Smith
1666. blocksmith
To all the active service men and women...you have my heartfelt gratitude for the sacrifices you and your families make every day. I wish you all safe returns to your friends and families.

To all the Veterans...your service and dedication will never be forgotten; thank you for all you have done for this great country.
Wilson Grooms
1667. Dr. Thanatos
Crazy theory of the day [in case it wasn't in the 1644 above]:

I originally thought the three to be united with the use of the sword were Rand, Loony Lews, and Moridin. However, given recent events, consider the following mathematical equation:

Min+Elayne+Avienda=Ilyena

'nuff said!
Matthew Smith
1668. blocksmith
I can also confirm what RobmRobm said at 1621...There are at least two of us.

Forkroot@1612

I like your list and would only add some food for thought/20ish types that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

Shadar Harin-maybe an embodiment of the DO, but still a character, pardon the pun, with a face.

Slayer/Isam/Luc-responsible for many untimely deaths and bound to play a role in TOM. Also likely to die in TOM.

Demandred-involved in so much and still not dead yet...not even once.

And I think Cadsuane and Davram Bashere will be toast in TOM.

Freelancer@1656

No Bair E huh...ok, how about Alannas MorS'redit?
T C
1670. Freelancer
Dr. Thanatos@1557

That's Minaviyne.


blocksmith@1666

Thank you.

blocksmith@1668

Now get in the corner next to LadyBelaine.
Kurt Lorey
1671. Shimrod
As I live and breathe*, I've learned a new word today.

Thanks Free.

* edited for omitting an "e".
Captain Hammer
1672. Randalator
subwoofer@1661

'K- Lan gets Ny preggers and then sheaths the blade thingy, shouts "for Frodo!". He's old to begin with and Ny will live for a long time. It would be like pairing a human with an elf.

Arrrr, when that ever happens, I'll eat even starfish! And I'm quite picky with my food.

Sorry...channeling my inner pirate.
Wilson Grooms
1673. alreadymadwithwords
Shimrod @1671

Here, learn another word: breathe. ;)
Kurt Lorey
1674. Shimrod
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA, amw...whateverisonyourmindinaparticularmoment.

That's poor typing skills.

Good catch, though.
T C
1675. Freelancer
Randalator@1672

Hey, that corner is running out of room. You all are getting beyond nutso, apun my word.

Help Leigh! They've zoomed right past ludicrous and straight to plaid! The next stage is balls of yarn and bowls of petunias.
Roger Powell
1676. forkroot
I usually try to avoid saying things in these posts that others have already said, but this calls for an exception:

Every day, and especially on this Veterans Day, I give thanks for those who put on the uniform of our armed forces and serve (or served) to protect our country.

Note to the non-US citizens who frequent these rereads: No disrespect is intended to you when we get a little US-centric as we talk about our troops. We also respect the sacrifices and service rendered by the forces of our allies. (I was really fortunate to be in Australia during ANZAC day a few years ago.)

It's interesting...want to start an argument in the US? Just ask whether we should have gone to Iraq (or about troops in Afghanistan, etc.). Want to get a bunch of Americans to agree? Just talk about our deep respect for those are in uniform (or who wore a uniform) in service to our country.

That's because we respect sacrifice and commitment. We love the doer, not so much the talker. We love the common soldier more than the general. We love organizations like the Marines because it seems that's one of the few places where words like "duty", "honor", and "pride" are not scoffed at as passe.

Robert Jordan certainly subscribed to this. It is not an accident that some of the most admirable characters in WoT exemplify the values we admire in our veterans. Characters like Gareth Bryne, Rodel Itulralde, and Rhuarc command our respect for their discipline, courage, forthrightness and honor.

Consider Mat and how popular a character he is. One of the reasons - the way he would not leave his downed comrade in Hinderstap. Just like a Marine.

So to the men and women in our armed forces both now and previously: A heartfelt "THANK YOU!"
Wilson Grooms
1677. daggers
@1641
If you gentled Moridin and put him in a vacuole that broke off from the pattern would he be permanently killed since he is no longer part of the pattern?
Rob Munnelly
1678. RobMRobM
A quick observation from my re-read. My initial sense of aggravation at the Hinderstap zombie fest has been reduced considerably when I consider to the ridiculousness entailed in the nondisruptive physical switching of the Brown Ajah and novice wings in the White Tower. If the Dark One can do that, Groundhog night in Hinderstap is not such a big freakin deal.

Another is that my biggest WTF in the entire book was LTT saying he liked Weimaron. I almost lost my lunch. That TPOD talking scene between Wei and the two Darkfriend Asha'man and Wei's continual messing up of every battle plan since TSR has convinced me he is a Darkfriend, if not a Foresaken. He is also a rude, pompous idiot jerk if you accept him on his own terms. Can someone please explain this in a way that makes sense?

Rob
Barry T
1679. blindillusion
RobMRobM@1678

Ah yes @ scary Dark One twists to the pattern causing buildings to shift around. And how nice that it made it so convenient for Egwene to fight her battle. Bet the DO is thinking, Well, shit... on that one.

And as to LTT saying he liked Weimaron (translation - wee moron) made me pause for a moment as well. Loyal? Umm, sure, if loyality can be defined as wanting to go against every command you're given because you want that grand charge. And honest? Really?
Elroy Skimms
1680. elroyskimms
Forgive me for not reading the full list of 1675 previous posts prior to throwing this out there. I have some questions that were left by the book and haven't had time to investigate them. So here, for your viewing pleasure, are my questions.

(1) Does Rand's access to the TP come from his link to Moridin?

If the DO controls who can and cannot wield it, either the DO let Rand wield it OR Rand is being changed by his link to Ishy as Ishy is being changed by his link with Rand. Semirhage thinks that the DO betrayed her by giving Rand access to the TP. I don't think the DO intentionally gave Rand access to the TP. Which also connects to my #3, see below.

(2) Does balefire made from the TP not unravel the thread back in time, just cut it out at that moment?

When Rand used the TP to balefire Semirhage, the bruises that Rand left on Min should have gone away. If regular balefire can remove a complex compulsion weave without a trace, I would expect that we would have seen some sort of timewarp in the Semirhage scene. Perhaps the shattered male a'dam would have been found whole where Sem. dropped it a few seconds earlier (the a'dam being useless without 2 female channelers). Either this scene was poorly written or TP balefire works differently. Considering the specific mention of Min's bruises later in the book when discussing the affects of balefire makes me think that TP balefire has a different affect on the pattern.

(3) I think the "3" that Rand has to unite as one is Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power. In order to completely seal in the DO, Rand will need to wield all 3 of the Powers, via Callandor. We know Callandor magnifies the "taint" of Saidin. Perhaps that is a hint that it is possible to combine the TP, which comes directly from the DO, with Saidar and Saidin, through Callandor while linked with a woman to bring in Saidar. This also relates to my 1st question. If the DO knows that all 3 Powers are needed to seal him up, then he would not grant Rand access to it. But, through his link with Ishy, Rand is able to wield the TP.

-E
Wilson Grooms
1681. too long in coming
Very much enjoyed the book. We've all been waiting a long time for it, and it nearly made the wait worth it. Nearly.

I loved the scene with Tam, Min, Nyaeve, and Casdsuane where Min makes the lights come on.

Anybody think Laras is Messana? She helped divide the tower by helping Suain escape and tried to "help" Egwene do the same. She gets to interact with nearly everyone and would never be tested for the power. I think we are in for a surprise there.
James Jones
1682. jamesedjones
1678 RobMRobM
Can someone please explain this in a way that makes sense?
Sure. But only if you assume that he's not a darkfriend, which would mean he's been busy messing up their plans with his ineptitude, too.
Roger Powell
1683. forkroot
OK - on our drive towards 2000 comments, here's something to do. Complete the following sentence:

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when:

Here's my offering.

I've been staying at a very confusing hotel this week (Westin Bonaventure in LA, in case anyone cares.) It's really easy to get confused on where you are and how to get back to your room.

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when you get lost in the hotel and your first thought was that the Dark One shuffled the rooms and halls around.
Tess Laird
1684. thewindrose
1678 RobMRobM-
I think I know why you are confused with Weimaron. He is not an Andoran noble or from the Two Rivers.
*Nods head, problem solved.*

Actually, that is a good question - maybe Moridin is effecting LTT's thoughts as well? He is either the biggest bumbling idiot(who never gets dirty) we have met, or he's a big time dark friend(I am going down with him being a Demandred proxy.
Rob Munnelly
1685. RobMRobM
@1683.

When you have written more than 50,000 words on this WOT blog (that is equivalent of 200 pages of text) while having a wife and two small children and a job that requires 60-plus hours per week....
T C
1686. Freelancer
elroyskimms@1680

RE: Your list of questions.

#1) I think Rand pulled it via Moridin's access, and without his knowledge or expectation. I don't believe, as many others do, that Shaidar Haran set Semirhage up to die that way.

#2) Current speculation is that actions taken by others indirectly related to one who gets balefired aren't as easily erased. Though Semirhage was controlling Rand, it was his hand choking Min. Also, he used a very carefully controlled beam of balefire on both Semirhage and Elza. No damage to the walls or anything else. So possibly only a few seconds of reversal, and the choking of Min was happening for longer than that.

#3) That thought has been offered (by me as well), but many (Leigh included) would consider it all wrong to use the power of evil to defeat evil. I agree.


too long in coming@1681

The easiest way to disprove Laras = Mesaana is that Laras was in the Tower kitchens back in New Spring. But there are bunches of other thoughts against it as well. Just search the page on "Laras" and you'll see.
Kurt Lorey
1687. Shimrod
@1678 RobMRobM

LTT wasn't exactly the greatest judge of character in the Age of Legends, so liking Weiramon isn't so out of line for him.
T C
1688. Freelancer
RobMRobM@1685

And your point is. . . ?


Oh hey, forkroot. You caught comment 1492, well I nabbed one I wanted as well. Props to anyone who can figure out which comment # and why. (Hints: Not this one, and it's since the Columbus special)
Leslie Annis
1689. Lannis
forkroot @ 1683:

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when...

Your friend's status on Facebook says they're back in A.D. (Abu Dhabi), and you think Arad Doman... XD
F Shelley
1690. FSS
forkroot @ 1683:

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when...

You've tried to acheive the flame and void.

And you know you've gone crazy when you succeed.

Also - when you try to ignore the heat/cold as described in New Spring.
Wilson Grooms
1691. little minion
Isilel@1643:

If I remember correctly, Amys didn't tell Nyn that she Dreamed Lan would die when he hears of her death... What she said was, "A'an'allein will die the day he hears of your death," or something to that effect, meaning Nyn should be more careful in her BA hunt because Lan would be devastated if anything happened to her.

That said, I do think there's a chance that Lan will die. WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH
T C
1692. Freelancer
Lannis@1689

At least Arad Doman has seasons. Every day is summer in the UAE.
Matthew Smith
1694. blocksmith
forkroot @ 1683:

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when...

Someone cuts you off in traffic and you call them a daughter of the sands.

When you lose at cards holding bullets and mutter to the winner that they have the Dark One's luck.

When you start seeing some great uses for a binding rod; for example, having your teenage daughter swear she will not date until she's out of college.

When you start judging coworkers on how well they play Daes Dae'mar.
Wilson Grooms
1695. little minion
Randalator@1657:

RFLMAO at Cadsuane's last words to the balefire stream.

Is there an ==AMoL Last Lines== contest out there?

Alviarin: "The Dark Mark [TM] will protect me!"

Fain: "It's never over, al'Thor! *gollum*"

Faile: (I don't care. As long as she dies.)
Sam Mickel
1696. Samadai
Forkroot @ 1683,

You know you have been spending too much time with tWoT when...

You have very vivid dreams about being an Ashaman in Randland and you wake up trying to weave Saidin.

You are out camping and you pick up a stick and start working the sword forms on the trees that are attacking you.
Thomas Keith
1697. insectoid
Free @1688: Am stumped. But your post @1675 made me LOL. :)

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when you keep trying to come up with WoT-like names of famous singers. ;)

Samadai @1696: Did you actually dream that? Am remembering your other very vidid WoT dream...
Captain Hammer
1698. Randalator
blindillusion@1679

And as to LTT saying he liked Weimaron (translation - wee moron) made me pause for a moment as well. Loyal? Umm, sure, if loyality can be defined as wanting to go against every command you're given because you want that grand charge. And honest? Really?

Well, Lews Therin is a big loony who wears his underpants on his head (metaphorically speaking, what with being an incorporeal voice in someone else's head and all). Being insane is what comes with the job.

So, making rational statements on other characters kinda is against work ethic. Them loonies have their pride, too.
Adam Loops
1699. Cecero
You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when...

Your girlfriend sees someone on the beach who is really pale and says "it looks like he's glowing" and I think she has the Talent to see ta'veren.
Sam Mickel
1700. Samadai
Insectoid@1697,

Yes, I keep having vivid dreams about the WoT, but for the life of me can't figure out why.**laughing to himself**


edited for: whoo-hoo post 1700. you can call me little woofer
Thomas Keith
1701. insectoid
Hokey Smokes! Leigh just posted something!
Micheal Jessop
1702. moggle
Congratulations to Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson for dethroning Dan Brown's 'The Lost Symbol' to take the #1 spot on the New York Time's Best Seller List for fiction.

Well deserved.
Sam Mickel
1703. Samadai
Speaking of things going on inside of peoples head,

My niece sent me a Facebook message last night, it said. "see voice in my head I do have friends and now I don't need you. Wait, come back it's lonely in here without you".

Now I asked her if she had read the WoT and she hasn't so since she is a dark haired beauty that prefers to wear white I asked if her friends name was Lanfear or Mierin. luckily it wasn't.
Henry Loose
1704. schrodinger
FSS @1690

been there, done that...

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when...

instead of working on assignments, you spend your time designing ogier built cities (very architecture specific).

you read history books to try and spot characters in their previous incarnations and previous tarmon gai'dons.

you start judging coworkers on how well they play Daes Dae'mar... oh wait, blocksmith covered this one... :-D

you calculate how many years it will be before you can be reborn and participate in the events of the books.

you call the inner monologue of your life Lews Therin

... count me in on the vivid dreams...
R B
1705. MasterAlThor
Hello all, *waves*

forkroot @ 1612
1. Elida...how could you forget her?
2. Galad...Not enough screen time and think about it, if you take him out of the story would it go on without him just fine? Yep.
3. I don't see any of them dying.

forkroot @ 1683
You know you've been reading to much WoT when...

You are mad at your kids and you call them Aran'gar and Osan'gar.

You are constantly trying to learn the weave for balefire...cause someone just cut you off again.

When you see a beautiful woman and feel like you have been compelled to look at her...at least that is what I tell my wife.

When you get on your computer and the first thing you do is check Tor.com for a new post.

When you *twitch*
Galen Brinn
1706. GatheringStorm
You know you're reading too much WoT when you log in at work in the morning and it takes you all day to read all the damn posts from 5PM the day before till 9AM when you refresh the Spoiler/Review page...
Roger Powell
1707. forkroot
MasterAThor@1705
You are mad at your kids and you call them Aran'gar and Osan'gar.
I gotta be careful if I'm sipping a soda and reading this blog. Almost sprayed the computer screen when I read this one.

BTW Elaida was given on the list as a candidate for the #20 slot, so I didn't forget her. Seriously considered her for a higher slot - it's just tough.

Re Galad: He is a little low on screen and POV time but I believe his role in bringing the Whitecloaks onboard with Team Light is fairly important. Also betting on the fact that he's Rand's half-brother and is due to be an important player in TG. No real argument with those who rate him lower.

Subwoofer!! Not only did you ignore my "no Bela" plea (which I knew you would), you didn't list Siuan anywhere in the top 20! C'mon man, she and Moiraine were the only remnants of Team Light for a long time. She's had a lot of POV time and screen time and a big effect on the plot. She's gotta be a top-tenner IMO.
Thomas Keith
1708. insectoid
MAT @1705: Ditto on the checking Tor.com first thing.

You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when you find yourself using WoT curses more often than real ones!
R B
1709. MasterAlThor
Hey how do we find out if Team (Air) Jordan is coming to a city near you?

And I just read on Dragonmount that Brandon said that there is something not being discussed on the boards that "will blow our minds" when we find out.

Any guesses?
Sam Mickel
1710. Samadai
You know you have been spending too much time with the WoT when you refer to Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday as unimportant days, and are spending MWF constantly hitting refresh.
Wilson Grooms
1712. Aye Aye Sedai
One might think this refers to Verin but from Leighs recent post on the signing tour in NYC that this is likely referring to a clue (s?) that are in books 4-6.

Shall we all go back and re-read and repost while waiting for leigh to resume the re-read ?

Hmm

And it also appears that Brandon refuses to say if G was/was not responsible for Asmo's death - per a query on if Balefire was strong enough to go way back in time (year +) . It also implies that the BFing of the palace might have only erased a few hours of time - at best a few days.
R B
1713. MasterAlThor
Freelancer...

is you comment at 1688 obscure or widely known?

I am guessing it should be a date...
Rob Munnelly
1714. RobMRobM
If we really want to hit 2000 or 2500, we need to hit a couple of fresh new issues. I propose that we try to figure out what particular character arcs will be in ToM. Please review and comment and pick apart with omission, changes, additions. Others can pick other characters at their convenience.

I'll start with Mat.
- He'll travel with Band and its hangers on to just outside of Camelyn with Verin.
- He'll send the three AS off on their respective merry ways into the City (and they will hear about tower reunification and head to TV).
- He'll continue to pine for Fortuona.
- He'll visit Elayne and enlist her help in getting the resources together to build Aludra's dragons (a very big job).
- Either Setalle will out herself or Elayne will discover that Setalle is a former AS who knows lots about ter'greal and will help her discover what she has and, potentially, make more.
- Mat will have a good oosquai drinking session with Birgitte.
- Mat will hear from Elayne about Seanchan attack on Tower and be concerned that all out war with Fortuna is coming.
- Mat will open Verin's letter and have to do something not particularly time consuming or difficult but interesting.
- Perrin will show up with some of this gang (at least Galad, Berelain, Morgase, Basel Gill, Lini, Langwin and Breane) and a mission to find Rand or do something on Rand's behalf (that will have to be discussed in another post); he and Mat will have a short reunion (finally) before one or both heads out
- He'll drop Olver with the Band (and Olver won't be happy about it.)
- Mat will get his group together (Thom, Noel, Domon, Leilwind, couple of Redarms), travel via gateway to Whitebridge, get to a boat and head upstream to Tower of Ghenjie; Olver will stow away on board.
- Thom, Noel and Mat will go into Tower (without Olver), cheat (iron, matches and song) and will save Moiraine; Mat will lose his left eye while there. This is obvious big finish for this arc.
Julian Augustus
1715. Alisonwonderland
What does Min have to do to earn a little respect around here? She's been in the books since the first 100 pages or so of tEotW, saved Rand's life after he received the wound that never heals at the end of tGH, she would be considered a SG if she could channel, her visions are essential guides to the direction of the plot, and most important, without her Rand would have gone cuckoo and the world would be fucked. Yet, someone (and you know who are) has her at #19, below even relatively inconsequential characters like Tuon! Come on.
j p
1716. sps49
forkroot @1676-

I missed ANZAC Day, but Christmas (1988) in Australia in a US uniform was very nice.

subwoofer @1661 and other posters-

I do not foresee a happy life for Lan; I agree his life span is too short for Ny.
john massey
1717. subwoofer
Whew! It was freezing out there. I was getting strange looks because of my hunting gear, but it is designed for sitting in a tree stand for extended periods of time so I was doing well. Poor guy a few spots down fainted. Ah, life in the Blight. Good ceremony. Window washers and construction workers all paused when the time came.

@Alis- yes it was me. Tuon- linked to Mat. Queen of an empire, the empire Rand is trying to deal with and the empire that attacked the Tower. I thought that any person that gets their own story arc and chapters and eventual outrigger novels... not so inconsequential. Maybe I should of placed O'Fortuona higher.

Min, as the guru said, is an oracle. Big juju there. She did take a back seat for several books and personally, I was not a big fan of the way her relationship develops( or lack of) with Rand. And she is around, but that is because of her attachment to Rand. She is a major player, just not high on my personal list. Others lists may be different, but there you have it, personal preference.

@little minion- Hmmmm, maybe I should of had it the other way around. Ny dies in battle and Lan could not save her so he goes on a bender. Well, maybe. or maybe like my other thought and Lan dies in a blaze of glory and Ny raises their unborn child to be the new king of Malkier. End result, all that "hairy chested drivel" that Lan keeps on about when he tells Rand about men like them and the whole wedded to death thing... it was foreshadowing.

Woof™.
R B
1718. MasterAlThor
Ok Freelancer...

At this time of the day you are probably hanging with the fam. Eat, enjoy time with the wife and kids and then get back here so you can answer these guesses.

1584: Miyamoto Musashi was born
or Sir Walter Raliegh sends an expiditon Roanoke Island.

1603: Samuel de Champlain sails to the Blight...er Canada

*doing his best Linus imitation*

THAT'S IT!!!!!
john massey
1719. subwoofer
I still go with my theory that the door to the ToG does not open unless all the prescripts are met. Of course I was wondering who checks on this? If they knock on the door, a snake guy or a fox guy says "yes", Mat gives the guy a winning grin and a fat sack of lies and there you have it. In like Flint.

These letters are getting to be real ticking time bombs waiting around. It is like crack the thing open already, we know that they will change the course of events... Maybe I should of wedged that letter in my top 20 list.

Woof™.
R B
1720. MasterAlThor
Woof...

Do you know where I can find a list of cities that Team Jordan will be visiting???
john massey
1721. subwoofer
@Free- 1455 Johannes Gutenberg invents the printing press and the first book is printed. This revolutionizes the world and brings books to the common people instead of a select few.

Woof™.
john massey
1722. subwoofer
@M A T- give this a go.

Living in the Blight here, we miss all this stuff.

Woof™.
T C
1723. Freelancer
MasterAlThor

Nope, none of those. And I'm still at work, I'm afraid.

I had thought about gunning for 1620 (Plymouth Landing), but I don't watch the site quite that closely.
T C
1724. Freelancer
sps49@1716

I had the good fortune of pulling into Perth on Juy 4, 1992. Actually, on July 5. The night before, our entire Carrier Task Force did a little fireworks show a couple miles off the coast.
We're talking .50 caliber tracers, 20mm tracers, 2.5" guns, 3" guns, 5" guns, loads and loads of flares and other assorted "skylights". Each ship passed slowly in port parade of the carrier, and lit up the sky once they cleared our fantail.

Best Independence day light show I've ever seen. Ain't nothin' like the real thing. . .Baby!

And the Oz-folk treated us wonderfully, as always. Perth and Hobart are my favorite two non-U.S. cities by far, thanks to the people.
T C
1725. Freelancer
subwoofer@1721

The post of concern is after 1492, though you could draw a line from your comment toward the correct answer.
R B
1726. MasterAlThor
Freelancer...

You still didn't answer my question about whether this is something well known or obscure.
T C
1727. Freelancer
MasterAlThor

Moderately obscure, I'd say. Though, most of the folks I am close to would pick it out in an instant. I know that's very little help. But hey, it's a puzzle...


Back to subwoofer@1721

I wasn't sure, so doublechecked. The Gutenberg press is commonly attributed as having been completed in 1440-1445. I wonder where the 1455 came from that you stated.
Rob Munnelly
1729. RobMRobM
@1720 - Brandon's website has a link to the schedule for the TGS visits.
john massey
1730. subwoofer
1686- If you like physics- Newton published Principia Mathematica

Or we have the Declaration of Indulgence, which eventually lead to freedom of religion.

Both very pivotal things happened in this particular year.

Unless you are a fan of windmills or Shakespeare. Then it would be an earlier date.

1455 for the abbreviated Bible.

@Rob- my link at 1722.

Back to surfing the 'net for furniture.

Woof™.
R B
1731. MasterAlThor
Alrigh...Subwoofer

I have to ask because I am so inept at using the computer. How do you get the blue links???
john massey
1732. subwoofer
Pssst, M A T- keep this a secret;)

must practice your google-fu

wink wink nudge nudge say no more...

Woof™.
Rob Munnelly
1733. RobMRobM
Woof @1730. You should know I never click into links in these posts. Never been rickrolled and never want to get caught later.

I would have had Min higher than 19 as well. Then again, I tend to visualize her as Kate Beckinsale so that helps. :-)

I see no one yet has commented on my Mat character arc. Hope someone settles in and gives it a good hard thought that leads to some other angles. It also will be interesting to think about Rand's next move and Egwene - both will no doubt be in the book but no more than five chapters or so. Perrin's is a big undertaking and I don't yet have a clear idea of his next move. Maybe he'll be in Camelyn, find the growing things ter'greal with Setalle's help, and head off to the Tinkers to figure out the song and how it helps. Other plotlines could be commented on as well - Who will be interacting with Borderlanders? Taim? Feel free to dive in, the water's great.
T C
1734. Freelancer
subwoofer@1730

Precisely. The entry you linked indicates the first complete book set on movable type, not the invention of the press. There were a number of years between one and the other.
T C
1735. Freelancer
Finally quitting the salt mine for the day. Be home in a while, and we'll see if anyone has uncovered the Truth.
john massey
1736. subwoofer
@Rob- I thought that was me @1719... must be getting too cryptic again.

Well Kate, hmmmmm... right then, in that case I'd bump her up to definitely top 10, Bela too.

I live by the golden rule- treat others as you would expect to be treated... so I hate rickrolling so I wouldn't do that to other people here :)

@guru- I see I mistyped again. Personally I always associated one with the other as that date was ingrained in my mind's eye, but yeah, the press was earlier- but the Bible stood out for me. Back to the thing though, was I close? 1686?

I still nailed my particular date. And mine is a gimme.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
1737. Aye Aye Sedai
@1714. RobMRobM Mat will open Verin's letter and have to do something not particularly time consuming or difficult but interesting.

Did we every decide if an AS can write something against the 3 oaths (i.e. a lie) or conversely can a BA write against one of their 3 W - are darktrons responsible for the dark oaths??

Or could she?? - given the caveat that the note is not read until after her death (or at the hour of).

Has anyone reviewed Verin's paths since we first saw her and noted anything unusual- other than the EOTW comment about being sent by Moraine ?
john massey
1738. subwoofer
I thought Mat agreed with Tuon that they would be on opposite sides?

And I also figure that the moment all three of the boys are together, that is when the Last Battle starts. Mat and/or Perrin will probably feel a "Ta'veren Tug" and make a bee line to Rand.

Woof™.
Ben Goodman
1739. goodben
I'm rather doubtful that Mesanna got caught in the Oath Rod trap when almost the entire Tower BA contingent escaped. I'll concede it's possible, just very unlikely.

I still think that the Tower BA knew something was up and took off when a message or meeting with the Rebel BA leaders fell through.
craig thrift
1740. gagecreedlives
forkroot@1676

Did you get a chance to play some 2 up while you were down here for ANZAC day?

elroyskimms@1680

Im starting to think that Rands TP usage was a plot of Moridins to a) get Rand desperate enough to reach out for the true power and b) to punish Semirhage.

forkroot@1683

“You know you've been spending too much time with the WoT when:”

Well I don’t know just about WoT but I almost didn’t respond to an email at work the other day because it wasn’t addressed to gagecreedlives.

Aye Aye Sedai@1737

AS cant write a lie. Moraine confirmed this when Alviarin sent Rand that letter way back when.
Wilson Grooms
1741. Jill47
Olver is Gaidal Cain.
R B
1743. MasterAlThor
Jill47...
Cannot be. Jordan has stated that it is not so...try again.
Don Barkauskas
1744. bad_platypus
Aye Aye Sedai@1737

AS cant write a lie. Moraine confirmed since when Alviarin sent Rand that letter way back when.
Additionally, the BA hunters were comparing what AS had written to what they could be proven to have done as a method of locating BA. This clearly implies that they think this would work; i.e., that the Oaths prevent writing a lie.
Roger Powell
1746. forkroot
gagecreedlives@1740
I was in Melbourne, desperately trying to get a ticket to the MCG to catch the big Aussie football game. It was Essendon vs Collingwood. Couldn't get a ticket so I had to watch on TV. Got the last laugh when the heavens opened and it poured for most of the contest.

I'm always wary of painting an entire people with a broad brush but IMO Australians truly are the friendliest people on this planet. Love it every time I get to visit.

Jill47@1741
Hello Jill47. Welcome aboard. You might want to tell us a bit more about yourself and how you liked TGS. The Creator (which is how we refer to the late Robert Jordan) has specifically refuted the notion that Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn.

While it's a bit much to read all 1700+ comments on this page (not to mention the other reread posts), you can try using your browser search to check and see if something has been discussed before. If you did that with "Gaidal Cain" you'd find the relevant information in earlier comments on this page.
LT Tortora
1747. Lucubratrix
Finally finished the book (it's tough when a certain giant online bookseller gets it to me a week late, then with the 14-hour days at work, well...). My impressions of it echo a lot of the 1700+ (!) comments, so I won't go into too much detail.

Overall, thought it was great. Since we're nearing the end of the story, a lot has to get resolved without opening new plotlines, and Brandon Sanderson did a fantastic job. The only thing that jarred was in Chapter 34, when Mat was coming up with elaborate(ly ridiculous) backstories for his men. Really? Funny, yes, but I have a hard time believing that Mat would think those stories would hold up. I know he's got the memories of generals, not spies, stuffed into his head, but it still seemed a stretch.

On a more positive note, I think my favorite scene was the first conversation between Gareth Bryne and Gawyn. It just struck me immediately as an interaction that rang very true, and was absolutely the voice of an experienced commander giving a lecture to someone who desperately needed it.

On "three becoming one"--my vote is for the merging of Rand/LTT/Moridin, for two reasons: First, it's a twisted nod to the Trinity, consistent with Rand as a Christ figure; and second, two characters are very confident that the interpretation has to do with Callandor. Of course, it's entirely possible that we're close enough to the end that the red herrings start to go away, but it does seem that throughout the series, prophecies are fulfilled in ways that none of the characters quite manage to guess until they figure it out in hindsight.

Freelancer @1692, I'll argue that point. In May, temperatures in Dubai were only in the mid-90s; by June, they were in the mid-120s. A 30-degree variance counts as changing seasons, right?
craig thrift
1748. gagecreedlives
forkroot@1746

Ahhhh the AFL. Well I have to ask did you actually understand what you were watching?

I was in the US last year and had an absolute ball of a time. The people were extremely friendly. Although there was some problems with my accent. It was a case of 2 countries seperated by the same language :)
Barry T
1749. blindillusion
RobMRobM@1714

I'll address you're comment here:

1. I'll agree with you Mat's story arc will begin with Traveling to Camelyn with Verin. Or at least I hope so because it'll give us a little more time with her. And think about it. Since ToM will most likely begin several weeks/to a month before the end of tGS, perhaps we'll even get a POV from Verin...maybe delivering more letters.

2. And sure, I'll say Joline and Edesina will leave Mat far, far behind. But for some reason I think Teslyn will stick with him. I'm a little interested in a further explanation for why she seems disappointed in him a la On A Broken Road.

3. Yes, I'm sure his thoughts of Tuon will continue to cloud our otherwise happy-go-lucky Mat's usually bright disposition. And odds are, some people will continue to see this as writing Mat's character the wrong way.

4. Mat will visit Elayne and discuss starting capital for the production of the Dragons. Thanks to the alum deposits in Danabar she'll be able to finance at least a partial beginning to Aludra's dream. (I still say that the Dragons are going to be hinge-point for the 4th Age, though, and not used much in the Last Battle. Weapons development at this level is too unpredictable to secure a slew of these cannons in such a short amount of time.

5. Re: Setalle and Elayne. I think Setalle will be outed when the gang learns of the White Tower attack. This will lead to discussion, which will lead to realization, which will lead to many fine ter'angreal conversations between Setalle and Elayne during Elayne's POVs (which will happen in ToM so some people better start getting used to the idea).

6. Yep, Mat and his good friend Birgitte will get blind stinking drunk while Mat learns all he can of the ToG. Notice I said “learn” and not “pump her for information”. Birgitte will tell all she knows freely. (Won't that be a change of pace!!)

7. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Mat doesn't get a tad bit angry at Tuon for the Tower attack. But yes, he'll also see the inevitable, barring of course Rand making peace with the Seanchan. Mat's going to follow Rand's lead on this one, not Egwene's. (That could be where Egwene's anger towards Rand comes in.... He makes peace with the Seanchan and tells Egwene she must not seek vengeance for the Tower attack.)

8. I'm really, really hoping that Mat's letter deals with the location of the Horn of Valere, which at last mention is still in the White Tower. The only other thing I can think that Verin would tell Mat would be the location of Padan Fain. Both Verin and Sheriam had a hand in Healing Mat. What if the letter tells Mat he is still connected to the dagger? Granted, Egwene thinks this unlikely, but as skilled as that girl is, she's still a novice is many areas of just what can be done with the Power.

9. RE: Mat and Perrin's reunion? I think it will be brief. At least one of them has too much to do. I'll come back to this one.

10. This is Mat we're talking about. He's a good father figure in some ways, but very dense in others. He'll be bringing Olver with him.

11. Mat and Co. will set out, though I think they'll be Traveling all the way to the ToG. I don't see Mat, or Thom for that matter, wanting to chance waiting on a boat. (Unless of course Mr Sanderson wants to try his hand at writing about sailing...but we've already gotten several Mat+Thom/Boat Trip=Interesting Story scenes before. I can also see this more twitchy Mat bringing at least 400-500 of the Band, Talmanes, Teslyn, and several notebooks worth of new material for everyone's “characters”.

12. I agree that Olver will not be entering the Tower at any point. I think these scenes are going to be some of the most interesting in the story so far. Mat will gamble away his eye. The cheats will be successful. They'll save Moiraine. Jain will most likely not make it back. I can see all contact with the 'Finn being broken after this point, i.e. the Tower falls and the Redstone Doorway in Tear explodes/melts/implodes/crumbles/gets up and walks away...take your pick.

13. Mat's arc will end with everyone catching their breath...and then comes something BIG that will leave the reader staring in shock. (What this will be I have no idea...but this late in the game who really things these characters will have even a second to relax, collect their thoughts, brush off the dust and tend their injuries?

~ Now, back to Perrin. I would love to throw down some thoughts on just what he'll be getting up to in the next two books. But since his story got so bogged down trying to rescue Faile, who can really know. He has some leadership issues he's finally starting to deal with. He has to let Rand know about Alliandre and the “missing” Prophet. In other words, he needs to tell Rand about his failure. But other than that..who knows.

~ Rand, if we see him, will most likely be doing his walkabout/beggar thing, reading the land and the people and making some serious decisions. End of the story, Epilogue perhaps, we'll see him meet up with the Borderlanders and catch a glimpse of Demandred.

~ Egwene, if we see her, will be meeting with the other SGs to discuss important stuff.

~ Avi will return with bridal wreath in hand...but no Rand. (As long as the story doesn't end with the marriage of the 3 of them to Rand a la another epic fantasy series that ended recently I'll be content.)

~And I'm done.~

Oh, Jill47@1741

Olver is Shivan the Hunter. ;) Now all we have to do is find out if he has a sister and where she might be....

(And yes, I know the chances of Olver being Shivan the Hunter are way, way out there (as far was we know, he doesn't have a sister). And Mat saw Shivan and Calain when he blew the Horn..and Olver would of already been born at that time. But with the end of the 3rd Age coming rapidly in our direction, Shivan has to be out there somewhere. Mr Jordan stated Shivan and Calian are always there at the end of an Age. But ~grr~ Olver just has to have some big plot point we're all missing.)
R B
1750. MasterAlThor
Torie....Pablo....

I have never spoken directly to you but I just wanted to let you know, that the pattern is starting to unravel again.

Some of the text is becoming squished.

Maybe if you had a Choedan Kal you could cleanse the taint?
Henry Loose
1751. schrodinger
@gagecreedlives 1748

...were you watching "Patton" on AMC recently? I distinctly remember that line from the movie when it was playing on Memorial Day (greatest war movie ever btw).
craig thrift
1752. gagecreedlives
schrodinger@1751

Considering I'm not sure what AMC (American Movie Classics?) is I am gonna have to say no.

I heard it when Australia played England in a recent rugby league game and I thought it was funny.

Patton is a great movie though.

This is somewhat unlikely but Im hoping Verins instructions to Mat are to get the horn of valere so he can blow it in the ToG. Wonder what the result of that would be
Barry T
1753. blindillusion
gagecreedlives@1752

RE: Mat blowing the Horn of Valere in the ToG.

I do believe this would happen.
T C
1754. Freelancer
Aye Aye Sedai@1737

Rand asks Moiraine straight up if the First Oath held for written words the same as spoken. He asked after reading the two letters from the Tower. Let me see....
"It is her hand," Moiraine said. "What do you make of it, Rand?"

"I think there's a rift in the Tower, whether Elaida knows of it or not. I assume an Aes Sedai can't write a lie more easily than she can speak one?" He did not wait for her nod. "If Alviarin had been less flowery, I might have thought they were working together to pull me in. I can't see Elaida even thinking half of what Alviarin wrote, and I can't see her having a Keeper who could write it, not if she knew."



Lucubratrix@1747

Sure, changing from Summer to Hades' Porch.


Schrodinger@1751

It's a common enough line, though I too remember it from the movie, when Patton addresses the British troops.


gagecreedlives@1752

I agree that part of Verin's letter is going to be about the Horn, since only she and Siuan know where it is kept. Certainly not in a usual storeroom, sisters do occasionally have permission to access items from those. Blowing it inside the ToG? Certainly qualifies as music, but it's kinda large to hide, and they wouldn't allow it inside, I imagine.


Subwoofer@1730

Not 1686, though both of my children did senior class science papers on Newton, quite the marvel he was. The 1455 Gutenburg Bible was most certainly NOT abbreviated, it was 1282 pages, the first mass-produced book of more than pamphlet size ever.


MasterAlThor

I'm sorry, missed your last guess. No, not 1686, and on 1688 I said that it was not that comment. Somewhere between 1492 and 1688. Follow a path suggested by some of the commentary between subwoofer and myself on this sub-thread (hah!), and you may see the light.

I'll bet Wetlandernw could figure it out, if she were lurking. (see @1688 for the puzzle)
Thomas Keith
1755. insectoid
Well, that narrows it down to about 17 different years...
T C
1756. Freelancer
Oooh, ouch. What exactly is it you're saying?

And did I ever say it was a year? I might have, but I don't remember doing so.
Thomas Keith
1757. insectoid
Free @1756: A year would be logical; I'm just guessing.

Since you and Sub mentioned the Bible a while back, perhaps it's the 1606 King James Version of the Bible?
T C
1758. Freelancer
insectoid@1757

That is not a correct guess.
Barry T
1759. blindillusion
Freelancer@1688

I'd agree with insectoid...a year would be logical since you started al this by saying:
Oh hey, forkroot. You caught comment 1492, well I nabbed one I wanted as well. Props to anyone who can figure out which comment # and why. (Hints: Not this one, and it's since the Columbus special)

Just saying...

Anyway, I got bored so...
1526 – New Testament translated to Swedish and the New Testament arrives in England from Germany where it was printed.
1565 – The pencil is created.
1569 – The first English Lottery.
1603 – the Black Death starts in England. Sir Walter Raleigh is arrested for treason.
1605 – The Gunpowder Plot is discovered.
1606 – Guy Fawkes is executed. Australia is sighted by England. The Union Flag is created.

Lots of interesting things happened in the years 1539, 1584, 1608, 1611, 1651, 1656, 1669, 1670, 1675, and 1686, but I'm thinking you're talking about something GRAND.

That's why I'm going with 1565, the year the pencil was created.

Research is fun =). I do so miss college sometimes....

edit: I got to thinking it might be in the etymology of your namesake, but "freelancer" was coined by Sir Walter Scott in Ivanhoe. And it also has nothing to do with what you and Sub have been talking about.
Carl Jennings
1760. atergoboy
Any idea if/when the tinkers will find the Song?
Lily
1761. Lily of the Valley
@ blindillusion @ 1749

Shivan and Callian: Twin brother and sister who herald the end of one age and the beginning of another. There might be some potential for that in babies currently gestating in A Certain Supergirl. :-)

Also:

You know you've been reading too much WoT when...

You hear "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" and imagine that Mat would make an amzing fiddle player.

You sometimes wish you could somehow transport yourself into the series just to tell everyone they're all idiots, and then give them all the information they've obviously gotten wrong, just because they won't talk to each other.

You feel smug at imagining the looks on their faces were you to do so.

You can't watch any show on television without finding some WoT parallel, SOMEWHERE.

You *sniff* unintentionally when someone says something you don't like/agree with.

You refer to people who have never read the series as "the Lost Ones".

On a different note:

I am completely baffled at the level of Die Faile Die sentiments sometimes expressed. :\ Honestly, besides the fact that her and her husband have a bit of a cultural divide to surmount, [exacerbated by BOTH parties, might I add, not just herself] she is a practical, intelligent young woman who handles herself and those who trust her with dignity and confidence. The same cannot be said about Perrin, and it is in his general direction you should be headdesking.

I like the character -shocker!-, and I think that's all I'll say on that. :)
T C
1762. Freelancer
Lily@1761

I like Faile as well. To Dhoom with the Faile-haters.
T C
1763. Freelancer
blindillusion@1759

I love research as well. I do not miss college for an instant.

Just FYI, my nick is a tribute to a great bunch of guys to which I once belonged, and still consider myself a member.
Thomas Keith
1764. insectoid
blindillusion @1759: Isn't Wikipedia wonderful? :)
T C
1765. Freelancer
1765 - Patrick Henry's "If This be Treason" speech.
Barry T
1766. blindillusion
Freelancer@1763

Awesome.

I miss these guys. I wish I could of found a way to stay in the Air Force but had to know if I could make it as an officer.

insectoid@1764

Yep. Wikipedia, some research a few years ago after V for Vendetta came out (because the whole Guy Fawkes persona fascinated me) and a crap load of study on English History back in the day.
T C
1767. Freelancer
Ok, so that insectoid doesn't hurt me on Sunday, I'm giving him credit. He got the event correct, but not the year. The King James Bible, known as the Authorized Version, was published and dedicated in May of 1611.



An interesting aside, it is the only English translation of the Bible which has never been Copyrighted, and indeed legal documents prohibit any attempt to do so. The idea being that no human may lay claim to, nor draw royalties from, God's authorship. Ironic, since it remains history's all-time best selling book, by several degrees of magnitude.


Two good bits of history for this year:
- Lunar longitudinal navigation solved
- Mason-Dixon Line established
Maiane Bakroeva
1768. Isilel
RobMRobM @1714, ToM predictions:

Mat will get his group together (Thom, Noel, Domon, Leilwind, couple of Redarms), travel via gateway to Whitebridge, get to a boat and head upstream to Tower of Ghenjie; Olver will stow away on board.

Aaah! Mercy! No boats, please! No unnecessary and completely unreasonable feet-dragging like in books 7-11. Enough is enough. Let them just Travel to within a couple of hours riding from the Tower.

Egeanin/Leilwin seems all set to being Aludra's apprentice and a budding artillerist - let her. She also may be somehow critical for Egwene (or not).

Anyway, I hope that Mat gets to the Tower of Gengji relatively quickly. Maybe a couple of nearly successful attempts on his life will prompt him to open Verin's letter as soon as possible and be on his way to the Finns. After all, where better to hide from the Shadow?

I also hope that his adventures in the Tower will be meaty and exciting and that they'll emerge with Moiraine 2/3 or so through ToM, so that she has an opportunity to actually do something in Randland. It has been far too long.

Speaking of which - I hope that Sanderson manages to write Moiraine well. She is my favorite WoT character, but there always had been a strange dichotomy between her perception from outside, where she seemed to be quite witty in a dry way and often "laughing inside" and her few POVs from the series proper, where she was strident and humorless. Granted, she was always under great stress in her series POVs, but still...
NS aside, of course, but unlike some I don't see her quite as the "same person, only younger" in NS.

Egwene - well, there is a ton of things she still needs to do to get the WT ready for the Last Battle.
Chase out/kill Mesaana (Egs really needs to set Siuan the task of deducing who she might be), train her channelers for battle and teach them to act in concert with the troops, launch a propaganda war against the Seanchan so that they'd be unable to sweep the sul'dam issue under the carpet and will be forced to abandon leashing, finding out what happened to AS who went to BT and confronting Rand about his allowing it to turn into a DF central, catching and beheading more BAs, etc.

Rand - well, Taim, Logain, the BT obviously as well as somehow binding 4Tuona to serve him and having his confrontation with Egs. Oh, and somehow figuring out how to seal the DO perhaps?
As well as teaching his followers as much as he can from LTT's knowledge and skills. He can now teach women as well, if he links. If Sammy and Semmi could work the opposite half of OP in a link, so can LTT.
LTT also knew the Seed Songs and stuff. True, they have no Nym, but if those were living ter'angreal, then channelers can substitute for them, if not as efficiently.
Maybe he will finally show how to prevent/counter-act Travelling? Because by now it has gotten ridiculous how insecure everything is and why important people on all sides aren't getting captured and murdered right, left and center.

Perrin... hm, not certain. Meet up with Galad and Morgase's reveal preventing a clash, sure, but what else? WCs are rather unimportant now. Maybe Tenobia and Bashere getting killed and Faile becoming Queen of Saldea and he her consort? Would be an interesting reversal, as now she will be in a command position and able to act openly, rather than sneaking behind Perrin's back. Maybe it will make her less irritating?

Oh, and we'll see what Graendal cooked up for Rand's "torment of the soul", whether she is alive or not (IMHO she ought to be). Alanna finally toast?
T C
1769. Freelancer
"Torment of the soul?" Where does that come in?
Searching...
Searching...
Do you mean "pain of heart . . . frustration . . . anguish"? Those are what Moridin demanded that Graendal give to Rand. Well, unless she set some instructions with one of her pets that wasn't in her compound to be wiped out, it will be hard for her to meet that objective. Besides, I think Semirhage managed enough of that when he was choking Min. Look what that earned for the shadow. One more zapped forsaken.
Kurt Lorey
1770. Shimrod
Holy moly, Freelancer needs to be lowered over the side to chip paint, or something. He's taking this NumberOnePosterWhoWritesAtLengthAndBeingConsideredTheSiteGuru thing too seriously.

roflmao
Birgit
1771. birgit
Birgitte will help Mat with his faster crossbows. She always insists that the is just an archer, that skill should be useful for something.

Perrin, Rand and Avi will rediscover the Song. Loial will convince the Ogier to help them with the Seed Singing instead of disappearing from Randland.
T C
1772. Freelancer
Actually, I've been working hard to bring my average words/comment down. Isilel and blindillusion have been putting me to shame for walls-o-text lately. After birgit's listing on the LoC#31 post, I felt. . .






wait for it. . .








Compelled.
Kurt Lorey
1773. Shimrod
LOL. At least you weren't compulsed.

Few (including myself) pay enough attention to Strunk.
matt
1774. mattyh
from a recent signing, BS has said that mesaana is still in the tower (i can't find the relevant link, sorry guys).

so! did she fool the oath road? "i am not a darkfriend (because i am chosen! muahaha!)"

or

is she hiding as a novice/accepted? (might explain the white dress in the prologue)

or

is she laras (i have trouble subscribing to this theory, given that mistress of the kitchen is such a prominent and well known figure, AND she was already in new spring).

personally, i think she used that loophole in the oaths..BUT if so, now she can neither lie nor use the one power as a weapon except in defense..which is very crippling for one of the forsaken!

so, from that hint BS gave us, we can eliminate all sisters on egwene's list who fled the tower or are missing.

PS i still think it's danelle :)
Joanne
1775. Joanne
Hi all can I join the general craziness in the bunker?
I have chocolate and nice German beer leftover from the Oktoberfest on offer.

I don’t post very often but I have read the posts here since the beginning of the re-read (even TSR#10). You guys are great, and hilarious.
Keep it up.

You know you have been reading to much WOT (re-read)
When you seriously consider asking Brandon Sanderson on writing advice… on your Ph.D thesis

Regarding Fail,
I truly hope she will not die, I don’t like her but Perrin already lost his entire family. If he loses Fail too that would be awful.
Maybe Perrin will die saving Fail…

Now can someone please Compel me not to think on WOT
Need to work…aargh…(help?)
T C
1776. Freelancer
mattyh,

I too think it's Danelle. She snuck soldiers into the Tower grounds disguised as masons in time to depose Siuan, among numerous other things. But, about the Oath Rod, a forsaken shouldn't have much trouble getting their hands on it before too much time passes. Consider, Verin was expecting to "borrow" it to try and remove her dark oaths, only to learn from Egwene that Seaine had it, Ironically for their Black Ajah search. So Mesaana could have removed the oaths within a fairly short time.

Following Veteran's Day, it just seemed proper to stand watch over this comment.
john massey
1778. subwoofer
'K, alcohol has worn off... lemme tell you about wile veterans and their capacity to drink liquor at discounted prices... back to the grind today. Ooooo that makes my head hurt:(

I miss my guys although I was part of a smaller nucleus within.

@M A T- my wife is the IT department in our house. I just pound at keys until I get results. My general MO.

@guru- shoulda known. That's what you get for trying to mutli-task and hunt geese. Am much better with my bow.

Maybe something controversial will put us over the top? I dunno, Warder's cloaks are really frilly?

Faile & Perrin reminds me of the song "uptown girl".

I am in search of a Sheinarian bath and a swift steed to get me to work now...

Woof™.
Rob Munnelly
1779. RobMRobM
Lsiel - nice points. My responses below.

"Mat will get his group together (Thom, Noel, Domon, Leilwind, couple of Redarms), travel via gateway to Whitebridge, get to a boat and head upstream to Tower of Ghenjie; Olver will stow away on board.

Aaah! Mercy! No boats, please! No unnecessary and completely unreasonable feet-dragging like in books 7-11. Enough is enough. Let them just Travel to within a couple of hours riding from the Tower."

On reflection, I agree. Why travel to Whitebridge and find a boat when you can travel to Caralaine Grasses and walk.

"Egeanin/Leilwin seems all set to being Aludra's apprentice and a budding artillerist - let her. She also may be somehow critical for Egwene (or not)."

Interesting point. I had the other option of her joining Elayne's guards - they were friends in Tanchico and Birgitte could use the help. Issue would be what Domon does with his time, as ain't no ships in Camelyn.

"Anyway, I hope that Mat gets to the Tower of Gengji relatively quickly. Maybe a couple of nearly successful attempts on his life will prompt him to open Verin's letter as soon as possible and be on his way to the Finns. After all, where better to hide from the Shadow?

I also hope that his adventures in the Tower will be meaty and exciting and that they'll emerge with Moiraine 2/3 or so through ToM, so that she has an opportunity to actually do something in Randland. It has been far too long."

I expect that the escape from the Tower will close out the book and Moiraine's impact will be felt in AMOL - but it would be great if I'm wrong.

"Speaking of which - I hope that Sanderson manages to write Moiraine well. She is my favorite WoT character, but there always had been a strange dichotomy between her perception from outside, where she seemed to be quite witty in a dry way and often "laughing inside" and her few POVs from the series proper, where she was strident and humorless. Granted, she was always under great stress in her series POVs, but still...
NS aside, of course, but unlike some I don't see her quite as the "same person, only younger" in NS."

Agreed. She's the coolest character in Randland and hope BS finds the voice.

"Egwene - well, there is a ton of things she still needs to do to get the WT ready for the Last Battle.
Chase out/kill Mesaana (Egs really needs to set Siuan the task of deducing who she might be), train her channelers for battle and teach them to act in concert with the troops, launch a propaganda war against the Seanchan so that they'd be unable to sweep the sul'dam issue under the carpet and will be forced to abandon leashing, finding out what happened to AS who went to BT and confronting Rand about his allowing it to turn into a DF central, catching and beheading more BAs, etc."

Agree that she'll have her chance to express anger at Rand but will then move onto cooperation.

Finding out about the missing AS is next big job, and I hope that the strike team that goes after the Black Tower will be a mixed Asha-AS team led by Logain.

Propaganda war against the Seanchan is an interesting concept -- not sure I buy it but interesting.

There will be lots of work integrating all of the new novices. Also might get the Kin as well. Query whether there will be tension with the Sea Folk - need to live up to Elayne's deal and also Talaan and Merlille will show up too.

"Rand - well, Taim, Logain, the BT obviously as well as somehow binding 4Tuona to serve him and having his confrontation with Egs. Oh, and somehow figuring out how to seal the DO perhaps?
As well as teaching his followers as much as he can from LTT's knowledge and skills. He can now teach women as well, if he links. If Sammy and Semmi could work the opposite half of OP in a link, so can LTT.
LTT also knew the Seed Songs and stuff. True, they have no Nym, but if those were living ter'angreal, then channelers can substitute for them, if not as efficiently.
Maybe he will finally show how to prevent/counter-act Travelling? Because by now it has gotten ridiculous how insecure everything is and why important people on all sides aren't getting captured and murdered right, left and center."

I expect Rand to lie low, following his epiphany on the mountain top. There will need to be a reconciliation with Cadsuane where she'll accept blame - remember, she gave Callendor to some of her friends to test, so he needs her to get it back. Fortuona will reach out to him later in the book but will ask him to bring Mat back, which will delay the final Seanchan deal until AMOL. I expect he'll have to deal with the Borderlanders, one way or another. Query when his vision will go, so that he walks like a beggar. I expected to see signs of vision deterioration in TGS, but it will have to happen sometime. Maybe an offshoot of the power draw that killed off the CK.

"Perrin... hm, not certain. Meet up with Galad and Morgase's reveal preventing a clash, sure, but what else? WCs are rather unimportant now. Maybe Tenobia and Bashere getting killed and Faile becoming Queen of Saldea and he her consort? Would be an interesting reversal, as now she will be in a command position and able to act openly, rather than sneaking behind Perrin's back. Maybe it will make her less irritating?"

Perrin is the hard one to figure out. In book, he realizes he needs to find and get back together with Rand. Yes, Galad/Morgase. Yes, travel to Camelyn to find out what's happening. Wonder whether he'll be sucked into BT attack, as I think one of his Asha's has a wife and family there. More likely, he'll be tasked with helping make Elayne's seed growing ter'greal work by finding the song for the Tinkers.

"Oh, and we'll see what Graendal cooked up for Rand's "torment of the soul", whether she is alive or not (IMHO she ought to be). Alanna finally toast?"

Graendel is toast. Interesting point whether she has something in the works that will torment Rand, such as an Alanna trap. Interesting idea - should have taken Alanna in the death pool.

Rob
john massey
1780. subwoofer
Heh, my eyes were moving faster than my comprehension. I saw 4tuna and thought that was a new spin...

Woof™.
T C
1781. Freelancer
RobMRobM@1779

Yes, Sora Grady was, at one point, the only wife left among the men who came to learn, and has remained no matter what. I'm sure Jur wants to get back.
James Jones
1782. jamesedjones
ToM theory:

Going by Moggy’s threat to Birgitte, she’s a bit of a twisted romantic. I see her as pursuing revenge against Nynaeve or Egwene via Lan or Gawyn, respectively. Maybe both. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Gawyn revenge plot will be successful.
Kurt Lorey
1783. Shimrod
My Pet Looney Theory of the Day™:

Elayne will be able to make much more successful ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal when she figures out that they turn out better when made with a combination of saidin and saidar.
Captain Hammer
1784. Randalator
Even Loonier Theory of the Day™:

"The three must be as one" refers to Elayne, in a Callandor-enhanced circle, combining angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal into an aptly titled über'angreal that utilizes the True Power to close the DO's prison.

Ah crap, now I spoiled the AMoL-ending for you all. Sorry.

Btw. if we need a new topic to push this baby to 3000...spanking? *duck and cover*
R B
1785. MasterAlThor
Freelancer...

I thought that it might have had something to do with the Bible...

Good grab on 1776

Aren't we getting close to the year you were born??? Ooops sorry that would make you younger wouldn't it?

I have a theory that was handed to me for discussion.

Could there be a unified theory of WoT?
If so how would it work? If not, why not?


Shimrod:

A list of recognized gurus

1. Leigh
2. Wetlandernw
3. Freelancer
4. forkroot

There are others but I have found that these 4 tend to know there stuff. They are like E.F. Hutton.
Rob Munnelly
1786. RobMRobM
Other miscellaneous observations as I've re-read TGS.

- Cadsuane doesn't have Callendor - she gave it to people she trusts for study. In light of Rand's nuking of the CK, sure hope that those folk are not BA and they give it back to her and Rand. Query whom she'd trust with such an awesome responsibility.

- When Tam showed up to confront her following the Rand meeting debacle, I didn't realize that Cad actually used the power to bind Tam and lift him in the air. In an MOA, Tam isn't provoked, calms Nyn down, and calls Cad a bully - after which she puts him back down.

- To me, this was a change in Cad's personality. In other books, she treated immature people with disdain but always showed respect to strong/mature people. There was no call for Cad to treat Tam with anything less than respect. This was a bit of overkill by BS (or RJ), just as I see Elaida as overkill. In both cases, flawed characters were turned into cartoons to strengthen the point when I would have preferred not to be beaten quite as hard over the head.
Wilson Grooms
1787. little minion
You know you're reading too much WoT when you sniff and immediately regret it because no one else is there to appreciate your expression of disdain.
Sam Mickel
1788. Samadai
Gagecreedlives,

Should know this one.

Freelancer and Subwoofers game
Sam Mickel
1789. Samadai
Here is an interesting thought,

If Demandred is indeed with the Borderlanders armies, then it brings new meaning to the 13 sisters that are with that army. Black Ajah you think? Demandred and Semi are partners so maybe he has one of the domination bands as well.
Wilson Grooms
1790. Tektonica
Samadai @ 1789

That kind of makes sense. This is such an odd thread, to me.....it's been mentioned quite a few times, but we've really never been on the "inside" to get a POV. Makes me wonder about the relevance.....but those 13 sisters have been mentioned many times....ummmm, missing blacks?
Barry T
1791. blindillusion
Freelancer@1776

Consider, Verin was expecting to "borrow" it to try and remove her dark oaths, only to learn from Egwene that Seaine had it, Ironically for their Black Ajah search. So Mesaana could have removed the oaths within a fairly short time.


Actually, Egwene didn't tell Verin where the binder had gone.

Saerin, Egwene thought, and the others. They must have taken it again. "I'm sorry, Verin," she said.


And at what point would Mesaana of removed the Oaths? She hasn't taken/re-taken them yet. After Egwene is "rescued" from the Tower she goes back and gets the Oath Rod from Saerin. When she gets back in the Tower she decides to hide the angreal, sas and ters in a more protected location, which is after the Tower purge.

Unless I'm reading your comment wrong, which is always possible.

~ I agree, nice grab at 1776.

~ As to my recent Wall-of-Texts...I've had two, count 'em two, days off for Veterans Day.

~~Going back to take a nap =) Last night was...well, Mat would of been proud. The drinking didn't start 'til 3 A.M
Wilson Grooms
1792. KZK
I hope we can get a permanent thread up for WoT/tGS Errata-Only discussion. Not to knock on BS's excellent work, but their are definite problems that need discussion/fixing. Since I'm only at chapter 10 of my slow reread, I'm sure there will quite a bit more that needs to be fixed for future printings, and also which needs to be brought to BS's attention.

Errata:

Other posters have picked up some unusual Idiom that is very out of place in the WoT: "Do the Math", "Saidared", "politicking", "homicidal", Etc.

Chapter 1: The Idiom 'Pawn' is used by Rand. Randland doesn't seem to have chess or chess idioms, Pawn is not used in any other WoT book except once to sell something (as in Pawn shop). See http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=pawn


Chapter 2 Egwene thinks all the SAS spies were gray. Were all the SAS spies gray like the text says? I don't think they were.

Chapter 2 Does the AS heat trick affect sweating, or just ones ability to ignore temps? Preventing sweating is good way to die.

Chapter 2 Elaida call Egwene a wilder which is not really true. Does Elaida think of her as a wilder in earlier books?


Chapter 5 It's cute how Cads doesn't remove the air weave from Semi's ears to let Merise think she is still questioning her, but wouldn't Merise notice the weave of air hadn't been dissipated?

Chapter 6 Turan says "save face" what he probably should have said was that she would break him to prevent having her eyes lowed for a period of time.

Chapter 6 Leane says "Palace Guards", which it seems to me should actually be "Tower Guards", as I don't think of the WT as a palace nor reason for Elaida's "palace" to have guards visiting Leane.

Chapter 8 Siuan say "one of the two others" which should be "three" The next phrase "The other" should also be changed to "Another".


Chapter 8 Egwene says "Romanda...discovered the forsaken." This is an huge error, because Siuan does not explain who figured out the halima/forsaken connection or otherwise use Romanda's name to Egwene. Egwene doesn't know this. This error continues in the next paragraph.

Chapter 8+ Starting in chapter 8 "Great Captain" is replaced by "general" in most cases where it should not have been. Jordan only used general in a few particular instances: "Captain General" of Queens guards, "Banner General" of Seanchan forces, Etc. See http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=general


I've only gotten through chapter 10 in my slow re-read. So my observations re:errata will end here, but I'm sure I and others will notice some more.

---
Chapter 27-8: From another forum someone wrote that mat sent three redarms with the Aes Sedai, but then we never see/hear from them again. I haven't gotten this far in my slow reread so I haven't checked if this is true or not.

---
Chapter 37: Sulin is in rands camp here, but in actuality she is with Perrin's group. Others have written of this.

--
Chapter 41: Possible error with how rings and angral work in tower battle. Others have written of this.


-----
Other tGS/WoT Observations:

Freelancer@1125. Their is no no surface area in a balefire calculation. Surface area is irrelevant to effect, as the smallest amount of balefire destroys a thread completely. Balefire, works outside of the pattern (per RJ), and works on threads alone, burning them backwards in time. So a more correct calculation would be something like this: The affect of balefire is correlated to the size of the beam, which increases linearly, however the power needed to increase the size of the beam likely would increase at an exponential rate, probably a Square law (since balefire is flat).

Their is no paradox possible from balefire: it, once created, acts outside of the pattern, outside of time, so if a balefires b, then c balefires a, b does not come back, because the thread for b was burned out of the pattern permanently.


I wonder, does Aviendha's ability to read residues have anything to do with her ability to read ter'angreal. I think they both would come from the same base talent.


The Dream About Perrin's White shroud: does that have anything to do with the Viewing of Berelain's man in White?

100 Companions: seven sets of 13 linked male channelers (for each seal) = 91, what were the others doing (IIRC it wasn't exactly 100)?


How the 20 BA SAS potentially escaped: it was clear in KoD that Alviarin was suspicious of one of the BA hunters and gave orders to have her watched. She likely was somewhat aware of the Hunting and sent out a warning before the axe came down, allowing wary BA sisters to escape.
Bill Reamy
1793. BillinHI
Isilel @1768 and others re propaganda war on Seanchan: My gut feeling is that if the Seanchan leashing of female channelers became common knowledge, there would be plenty of Randlanders ready to jump on their bandwagon. This would be entirely due to the WT's arrogant and bullying attitude over the last 2-3000 years. Not that I think leashing is a good idea (I certainly don't) but the AS have not covered themselves with glory, even with all the good they have done. I think there is as much fear of and resentment toward AS as there is respect. They isolated themselves when they should have been out and about in the world at large, not hiding in the WT.
Wilson Grooms
1794. Lily of the Valley
D: Awwww, I wanted 1789! -George Washington ftw!-

:D Guess I'll have to wait for 1800, then!

[Because Thomas Jefferson -might- have been even cooler than Washington. IMHO.]
Bill Reamy
1795. BillinHI
KZK @1792: Men cannot link by themselves, there must be women in the circle. Women, however, can link by themselves. Yes, there were more than 100 Companions (can't find the right number right now) but it doesn't really matter.
Guillaume Bergeron
1796. Nightbaron
Here are my previsions as to Towers of Midnight. I think RobMRobM is mostly right about Mat's arc, but I'll reiterate how I think it'll go, by characters.

Sanderson mentioned that while tGS focused on Rand and Egwene, ToM will focus on Perrin, Mat and Elayne. So let's get to them first.

Mat:
- Start off by traveling to Caemlyn, meeting up with Elayne and Birgitte again
- Drops off the Aes Sedai there along with Setalle, discusses construction of dragons with Elayne, leaving Aludra to oversee their production
- Hangs out in Caemlyn drinking with Birgitte, waiting for the 30 days to elapse
- Is sick of having Thom push him to leave for the ower of Ghenjei, so he opens Verin's letter
- Verin's letter directs him to Tar Valon to grab the Horn of Valere. Mat has an opportunity to travel there with Joline and Edesina (I like the theory that Teslyn sticks with him), so he has to weigh Verin's request against Moiraine's request (as per a dream/viewing which has been mentioned in this thread)
- Mat decides on Tower of Ghenjei, possibly sends Juilin/Egeanin/Domon to Tar Valon to get the Horn, which might end up with Egeanin and Egwene meeting and being "connected."
- Mat and co. travel to the Tower of Ghenjei
- Mat, Thom and Noal enter the Tower and search for Moiraine
- As much as the idea makes me uncomfortable due to Moiraine's warning, I think Olver sneaks in anyway.
- The arc ends with Moiraine's rescue.

Perrin:
- Encounters Galad and his Whitecloaks
- Has a confrontation with Byar and Bornhald, I think he might win them over eventually
- Galad recognizes Morgase
- Cadsuane comes to visit, brings Tam with her
- Asha'man get some rest, travel to Caemlyn
- May meet Mat, though I think Mat will have gone already
- Spends some more time in the Wolf Dream with Hopper, learns more about Tel'Aran'Rhiod

Elayne:
- Gets her coronation
- Chats with Mat, Aludra, builds dragons
- Gets reunited with Galad and Morgase
- Goes into labor
(seriously, don't see what else her arc could be about at this point.)

Others:
- Logain gets back to the Black Tower and confronts Taim about his activities. Frees the Aes Sedai from both delegation (Reds from the Tower and delegates from Salidar) and supplants Taim, becomes M'Hael
- Fortuona learns Traveling from Elaida, checks out Seandar for a small scene (ie: Jordan mentions nothing will happen there except possible small scenes like The Far Snows), may bring back Crystal Throne
- Rand and Egwene meet again, and he shall know her anger. This is possibly tied to the Black Tower ordeal, ie: Logain might seek help from Egwene to defeat Taim and his minions, and she might end up going
- Lan and his armies gather, we probably get a prologue scene from him

So there's what I think. Just to make this post longer, I also want to add something which has been said before (maybe in this re-read, can't remember), but I am still of the opinion that there is no Song. We saw first-hand how the Tinkers started, how they broke off the Aiel to... (I so wish I had the book here to get the actual quote) "find the old songs again" with no mention of a singular Song. I believe that "information decay" turned it into looking for a specific Song, but that in the end, there is no Song to find.

I understand I might be completely wrong, however since the first time I've read it, this is how I interpreted what Rand saw in the columns in Rhuidean.
Wilson Grooms
1797. Lily of the Valley
Not only can men not link by themselves, but outside of a circle of two [one man one woman] there must always be two more women then there are men. The strongest circle is one of 72 linked channelers. After that the circle cannot get any larger. [Per the BBoBA] So, technically, there can be 66 women and 6 men [giving the significant 666 to some readers], but the strongest circle would actually be 35 men and 37 women. :>

The 100 Companions were probably loaded down with as many angreal and sa'angreal as possible, with more than a few ter'angreal in there developed specifically for war, and then launched their attack. They couldn't link at all.

And IIRC there were something like 113 Companions, or 120. I'm not sure, but it wouldn't be too hard to find. I have all books doggie-eared to death.
Wilson Grooms
1798. procreator
I'm new to this amazing thread, though I've read all the books several times. I very much enjoyed The Gathering Storm and applaud the new writing team's efforts - not least their way with chopping out unproductive storylines.

The thing that's been staring me in the face (having only read the first 1000 posts, perhaps someone has now said this) is the question about Rand standing on his own grave. If you accept (and I know there are sceptics) that Rand and LTT are the same soul, then when Rand/LTT stand at the top of Dragonmount, then he's standing on his own grave. It's where LTT died and the mountain is on top of the place he died.
James Jones
1799. jamesedjones
1796 Nightbaron

Good catch on Perrin learning the wolf dream. This is going to be a major plot point in ToM. Also, he needs to find Rand somewhere to save him from women using the OP to hurt him. According to Min's vision, Perrin has to be there to save Rand from that at least twice, and we only have the end of LoC so far.
Rob Munnelly
1800. RobMRobM
NightBaron - nice work. Can't review in detail right now. Re the song, look at EOTW prologue where LTT asks Ishy if he can sing the song. It implies it is real. Ditto re the song scene in Rhudien with Someshta (Green Man). Also I believe there is some type of growth component to Min's dream about Perrin in EOTW - so, I believe the song is real and Perrin will find it.

Rob

Edit: Woof!! 1800 baby!
Matthew Smith
1801. blocksmith
KZK@1792

I think there are two errata you can delete from your list...

Relative to Eg's knowing about Romanda, in Ch. 8 on page 150, 7th to 8th paragraph, Siuan tells Eg that a Forsaken was in the camp and that "Romanda made the connection".

Also, regarding Leane's reference to Palace Guards. In actuality, Elaida was well into the process of constructing a palace on the Tower grounds and, if that isn't enough, it may have been a back-handed comment on Elaida's control of the tower being more like that of king/queen than an Amyrlin.

Otherwise, I basically agree with your assessment. Not sure any book is perfect.
Guillaume Bergeron
1802. Nightbaron
RobMRobM @1800

I again don't have the book here, but according to IdealSeek (and my own memory), LTT asks Ishamael if has the Voice. That does sound like this is a Talent, probably necessary when used in conjunction with the Nym at the scene we saw with Someshta. However, I don't believing we were witnessing the Song, I think we were witnessing one of many growing songs, and I concede that maybe Rand will now remember one such song, have the Voice himself, and use it alongside the Tinkers, who will then believe they found the Song. I'm not convinced however.
T C
1803. Freelancer
MasterAlThor@1785

Ahh, you waited patiently to get some of your own back. Well, if you want to play...
There are others but I have found that these 4 tend to know there stuff. They are like E.F. Hutton.
That would be *their* stuff. Don't want to enrage forkroot


Samadai@1788

The Empire lands down under. Since you have 1789 also, you should have called it out as well for signing of the U.S. Constitution.
Noneo Yourbusiness
1804. Longtimefan
Going over the Verin subject a little bit.

Verin specifically singles out Cadsuane as the only Aes Seadi that Rand should trust (in her letter left behind in The Crossroads of Twilight)

Was this Verin using her personal opinion of Cadsuane (not listed as Black by Verin) or is this some interpretation of Prophecy in conjunction with Min's viewing that Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Ashaman something important that they will not like learning?

Could one of the letters that Verin had with her be for Rand explaining in more detail what Verin's interpretation of the viewing may mean in the context of the Karaethon Cycle? I do not have any guess mostly because I think the section of that literature has not been shown in the previous books.

Could Cadsuane teach Rand how to admit when he is wrong (do not see how that would translate to the Ashaman except by example) not by her own actions by by his actions in banishing her which may have to be reversed because of the information in the letter that Verin may have left for him?

Humility is not to make oneself less but to know that some decisions are not always appropriate in hindsight and to admit the mistake while correcting the action.

I realize that is not the dictionary definition but it was more of a thought about how Rand focused on being only one way, Right. In failing he would beat himself up as wrong but neccesary and get all worked up over that. Other people would forgive him (or not) but he did not seem to forgive himself as much as just punish himself or push his errors aside as penalties the world had to deal with because he had more important things to do.

To forgive himself is something he just realized at the end of the book but he has not applied that knowledge publicly. Small steps it seems.

Laughter and Tears are closely related emotional states based on personal realizations. In the case of self forgivness there can be laughter at one's self at the joy or relief of realizing a situation can be fixed. There can be tears at the sorrow or frustration of loss that cannot be reversed. There can also be tears while laughing because of the complexity of emotions in certain states of awareness that can happen with being able to forgive one's self.

Rand does not need Cadsuane's forgiveness for being rude to her and mistrusting her actions. He needs to forgive himself because in doing so he will be able to see how to work with Aes Seadi without suspecting them (well not constantly suspecting them) and how to assert himself without pushing people away.

I use the word forgive instead of accept for the specific reason that when a person asks someone to accept something they are not intending that action or behaivor to change or for any accomodation to be made to correct the discomfort that action or behavior may have caused.

Forgiveness is asked for when someone realizes not only that what they have done may be inconvenient, disrespectful, or harmful to themselves or others but when they chose to change.

To ask for forgivness means that the mistake is acknowledged and efforts will be made to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Sometimes it even entails taking actions to repair some of the damage the actions may have caused.

If Rand can forgive himself his arrogance so that he may correct the mistakes of the past (both in his life and previous lives) then he may de-banish Cadsuane and find a way to respect her as a person while not being controled by her as an Aes Seadi on his terms instead of dominating the interactions between them (the same thing he did not want her to do) to assert his independence.

Or some sort of blah, blah, blah like that.

It is a slow office day here so I had some time to ramble in my own mind. And here on the post as well. :)

Here's to a really long (really really long) message board and many more posts to come.

(clinks glass of ginger ale with all. I do not drink ... wine.)

Edit: to put it succently (too late) Rand had accepted the fact that he was the Dragon Reborn but he had not forgiven himself for being the Dragon Reborn. The revelation at the Dragonmount may be the begining of him understanding that difference.
T C
1805. Freelancer
KZK@1792

RE: The heat trick. Yes, it prevents sweating. This has been pointed out as unhealthy many times on WoT boards, but the behavior has been consistent from very early on in the series.

Elaida called both Nynaeve and Egwene wilders when they first arrived in Tar Valon. I always presumed that it was mostly driven by her contempt for Moiraine, but Elaida is so bullheaded that once she decides something, she'd never change her position, so they have always been wilders in her mind.

The 100 companions did no linking. Males cannot form circles without female channelers, period. And there were 113 according to TSaSG.


procreator@1798

Yes, Rand is standing on his own grave on Dragonmount. And there's no rational skepticism about Rand & LTT being the same soul, because Jordan said that exact thing directly. The debate is on whether the LTT persona is really there, or is a construct of Rand's insanity designed to isolate him from his Kinslayer memories. Paint me in the "he's real" corner.
R B
1806. MasterAlThor
Freelancer...

Thanks for that. I might go and edit that.

I have a question for you. Do you think Asmo was killed with the One Power?
R B
1807. MasterAlThor
Incase no one has....


Welcome Joanne and procreator.

You guys are more than welcome to join us in the bunker. Drinks and food are over there. *points*

Pull up a chair lean back on your knife and let your tongue go free.
Leslie Annis
1808. Lannis
Joanne @ 1775: re: entry into the bunker...

Well, we're pretty friendly here, and anybody who comes bearing chocolate *and* beer is certainly welcome! I see M A T has already shown you the treat table... :)


Procreator @ 1798: I agree with your opinion of the "Rand standing on his own grave" viewing... when I read it, I had the same connection, so I'm crossing my fingers that that's fulfilled...


Looney Theory Time

(oh, the sad part here is I may have already said this on a previous thread but I dunna know... things is fuzzy today...)

Okay, so M A T reminded me of a thought I had re: Asmodean's death. Now, the remark was that the DO can't reincarnate Asmodean because of how and where he died... (and actually, this falls into the "big clue" in books 4-6 that Brandon says we've missed--as per Leigh's NY signing recap)...

Back in books 4-6, there was less traveling and more skimming... (perhaps someone can confirm if skimming started in tSR? Off the top of my head I think so, but Lord knows I've been wrong before...). Anyhow, I'm wondering if perhaps Asmo opened that so-called pantry door and actually encountered Grandael's skimming portal and stepped off into the blackness, to fall forever...

I'm thinking this because there's a couple of mentions of the consequences of falling off a skimming platform, and one of the Aiel fall off (on the way to Shadar Logoth?), right about books 5-6. Anyhow, after those books, there's way more Traveling and not so much skimming anymore...

The whole "big clue missed" thing has me thinking of what occurs in those books but not much in others... though, truthfully, if Asmo had fallen through the blackness, would he have died? (I suppose he'd eventually starve to death or die of thirst, yes?), and even if he did we're back to Graendal being the only one left to confirm such a fact and her POV is toast... so, unless she told someone...

[/looney theory time]

Oh, BTW, there's 5050 results for "Graendal killed Asmodean" on Google... wow... :|
Wilson Grooms
1809. First Selector
*sighs* finally caught up : ) I finished my latest WoT reread of 1-11 two weeks before the TGS release and used Leigh’s reread posts to tide me over. Love Leigh’s posts and have enjoyed the interesting and entertaining comments. Thanks all for helping to meet my WoT fix!

Loved TGS. Thank you Brandon and all of Team Jordan!! !

KZK @ 1792:
“Egwene thinks all the SAS spies were gray. Were all the SAS spies gray like the text says? I don't think they were.”

I didn’t recall this, so I tried looking back. What’s the line you’re thinking of? Perhaps you misread this line: ‘Beonin says she’d warned the Gray sisters that Elaida knew they were spies.’ Eg’s not saying that all the spies are gray, just that the gray spies are in the know as Beonin mentions in KoD.

“Elaida call Egwene a wilder which is not really true. Does Elaida think of her as a wilder in earlier books?”

I don’t remember Elaida calling Eg a wilder when she first came to Tar Valon as Free says (although it could be) but right before Eg’s Accepted test Elaida definitely does. Elaida gets her shawl all in a twist and says how Eg is a wilder in spirit or some such.

Re: Lan’s death
I was worried for much of TGS about Lan dying, what with Rand’s thoughts and Ny’s worries. But actually Min’s viewing made me worry less. I feel like we’re being set up to think Lan’s gonna die. And that seems like the obvious interpretation of Min’s viewing. So why tell the readers this particular viewing? I think that either Lan is the one in the viewing but it turns out that he lives or that it’s someone else in the viewing. Either way, vive Lan!
Matthew Smith
1810. blocksmith
Lannis@1808

Only problem is that Asmo's death scene is described as when death took him.

That sounds like a pretty quick death as opposed to starvation or even massive deceleration syndrome following a long fall.
T C
1811. Freelancer
MasterAlThor@1806

Yes, but it is pure supposition. The death was fast, and all of the reasonably potential suspects are channelers. I don't consider Fain or Slayer to be reasonable suspects. I'm afraid that if it wasn't Graendal we're left with Moiraine or Lanfear. Wait, was Loial in Caemlyn on that day?

Lannis@1808

Rand actually "skims" in TEotW, to get from the Green Man's place to Tarwin's Gap. He didn't build a moving platform like later, he created a stairway.

Nice thinking about that as a death mechanism for Asmodean. But can it square with him shouting, "You! No!"? And the last narrative that the words still hung in the air when death took him. He died quickly, and as you say, falling in Skimville would be anything but a quick death.
Matthew Smith
1812. blocksmith
But I do love the idea of going back to read books 4 through 6 to try and find the clue no one has mentioned.

IMHO, it must be pretty damn well-hidden clue for the gurus and other WOT readers to have missed it. I give myself an ice-cube's chance in hell of spotting it.

"So your saying there's a chance?!"
Rob Munnelly
1813. RobMRobM
@1812. Who said we missed it? Just something that most people had missed - and we're not most people. I'm betting we're going to learn what it is and say "hah - knew it."
Wilson Grooms
1814. Lily of the Valley
Maybe Asmo was killed by the -opening/closing- of a gateway. -shrug- x3 I'm not too invested in this mystery. Either I'll learn or I won't, but it's never really bothered me.

=o Claim the year the War of 1812 ended. Cool.
Wilson Grooms
1815. Lily of the Valley
Could that happen? If Asmo was sliced through with a gateway, and somehow part of him was lost in the space outside of the Pattern, would that have any bearing on his soul being beyond the reach of the Dark One? I mean, sure, the only reason the DO would want him back was to torture him for all eternity, but still.
Ambrose Scalvini
1816. MagicDragon
First Selector 1809
Yes Elida and most if not all AS see Egween as a wilder, one who began to learn to channel before comming to the WT. Moiraine did help Egwene touch the source for the first time, as Egween as soon to touch it on her own so Moiraine didn't really have a choice. Even though Egwene was taught by an AS it was not done in the WT and is thus labled a wilder.
F Shelley
1817. FSS
@1811 - No, Loial was either in Duopotamia that day, or on his way to the Stedding en route to Caemlyn at most.

I don't think Asmodean's killer is the small clue BS mentioned. If it was, then it was very small indeed.

BTW - I don't think Asmodean was too far from the DO's grasp. I think the DO let him "die the final death" for his betrayal.
Kurt Lorey
1818. Shimrod
Some Aes Sedai call others "wilders" because they dismiss any learning outside of the Tower could have been valid, and/or in an attempt to be dismissive of the person's abilities/knowledge.

Elementary school stuff.
Wilson Grooms
1819. First Selector
MD @ 1816:

I agree and wasn't questioning that. :) just answering someone else's question about Elaida calling Egwene wilder. :)
T C
1820. Freelancer
So I took another look at The Strike at Shayol Ghul, since it came up earlier, and something in the End Notes raised a hair:
Before her death during the Breaking (which cannot be specified from the evidence of the manuscript, unfortunately either as to time or place), Latra Posae apparently rose to a prominence which rivaled that of Lews Therin before her. During the fighting aginst the Shadowsworn before the Breaking put an end to what by that time seemed inconsequential by comparison, she gained the name Shadar Nor, best translated as "Cutter of the Shadow" or perhaps "Slicer of the Shadow" (the difficulties of precise translation from the Old Tongue, with all its multiple meanings, will always remain with us). It is thus ironic that no other document yet discovered so much as mentions her name or acomplishments. Perhaps this will serve to restore Latra Posae Decume to her proper place in history.

I wonder. Was there truly no other document remaining to declaim her accomplishments, or were there actually no accomplishments (for the Light) to be recorded? If the Old Tongue phrase can be translated "Cutter of the Shadow" or "Slicer of the Shadow", based only upon two words, what if the truly accurate translation were "Shadow's Cutter". What if Latra Posae were a darkfriend, and her efforts guaranteed failure at Shayol Ghul? What if her entire life's purpose was to divide the women from the men among the Aes Sedai?
Roger Powell
1821. forkroot
KZK@1792
Regarding errata: There's another goof in the conversation between Mat and Joline regarding the number of horses she would need to leave with. She omits her warders.

Regarding balefire:
Freelancer@1125. Their is no no surface area in a balefire calculation. Surface area is irrelevant to effect, as the smallest amount of balefire destroys a thread completely. Balefire, works outside of the pattern (per RJ), and works on threads alone, burning them backwards in time. So a more correct calculation would be something like this: The affect of balefire is correlated to the size of the beam, which increases linearly, however the power needed to increase the size of the beam likely would increase at an exponential rate, probably a Square law (since balefire is flat).
If balefire worked on threads alone, how would it dissolve physical objects? We've seen BF take out columns (in Tanchico) and half of a boat (in Ebou Dar). We've also seen Rand be very careful with the amount of it in order to burn out Trollocs without the beam continuing on and harming his friends.

I guess one theory is that when BF contacts something living, then the effect is on the entire living thing irrespective of the width of the beam, whereas if it contacts something like a column the effect is limited to dissolving an area in the physical object equal to the cross-section of the beam.

Certainly it couldn't just take out the entire column (unless the beam was that wide); otherwise what is to say that it wouldn't remove the whole building, since the idea of a "column" is just our way of identifying a part of an interconnected structure.

One problem with the theory above: If a small stream of BF can burn an individual out of the pattern (vs. just burning a hole in that individual), shouldn't the individual's clothes (e.g. Trolloc armor) remain?

MasterAlThor@1785
Oh my! You honor me to put me on a list with Wetlandernw and Freelancer. Can't say that I have aspired to that level of "guru-dom", but thanks for the compliment. Actually my aspiration would be to included on a list of the most "eclectic" posters.

Freelancer@1803
That would be *their* stuff. Don't want to enrage forkroot
Yeah I noticed, but the man just stroked my ego so you think I'd dump on him?

Longtimefan@1804
(clinks glass of ginger ale with all. I do not drink ... wine.)
You put some Angostura Bitters in that ginger ale and I might just join you. It's a great drink for the designated driver at social occasions.

gagecreed - Heck yes I understood what was going on. I'd already been to the Colonial and watched Essendon beat Adelaide, and I'd watched a bunch of other games on TV with Aussie friends. So I understood the rules and so forth. Obviously I'm not claiming a serious fan's knowledge of the intricacies.

==
A puzzle for all of you number grabbers.. I wish I'd been in around the time to grab 1775. That year is special to me, so you should be able to figure out the town I grew up in.
James Jones
1822. jamesedjones
1820 Freelancer
What if her entire life's purpose was to divide the women from the men among the Aes Sedai?
More like: Her entire life's purpose was to reestablish gender equality missing in the AOL for all the female fans out there. ;P
Wilson Grooms
1823. little minion
KZK@1792:

Elaida has always thought of Egwene as a wilder. Very early in the series, I think in tDR, she says something like, "You will always be a wilder, regardless of when you began channeling." Her contempt possibly stems from Egwene's association with Nynaeve, the strongest wilder. It also didn't help that Eggy was found by Moiraine, whose gallivanting aroused Elaida's suspicions.

But technically, no, Egwene isn't a wilder. However, chapter 2 is pretty consistent with Elaida's insults to her throughout the series.
craig thrift
1824. gagecreedlives
Samadai@1788

Would the answer happen to be the first fleet arriving in Port Jackson.
Rob Munnelly
1825. RobMRobM
Fork - would that be Lexington or Concord MA?
T C
1826. Freelancer
jej@1822

One of these days I'm going to think you're serious, and I'll never waste my time with your comments again. Glad I haven't thought that yet.


gcl,
::points at 1803:: Could be. I didn't know the Port Jackson name, but when he said you'd get it...

forkroot@1821

Leigh is the one-and-only WoT guru, she of FAQ awesomeness. Wetlandernw a worthy and capable understudy. I'm just faking it and keeping the pot stirred.
Jacy Clark
1827. Amalisa
Freelancer@1820

Interesting theory. Very interesting.
T C
1828. Freelancer
And one more comment-grab for me. Maybe less, maybe more obscure than 1611.
craig thrift
1829. gagecreedlives
Sorry free didnt mean to step on your toes. I just logged on and did a search for gagecreed to get to where I was last night and saw that question and decided to answer before I read the rest of the posts.

Oh and Leigh is definitely (definiteleigh, I know *groan*) THE Guru but there is certainly a few very good understudies that comment here.
T C
1830. Freelancer
gagecreedlives@1829

Oh no, it's not like that. You didn't step on anything of mine. I was just glad that I had the same idea. Hey, you guys do call yourselves down under, right?
Sam Mickel
1831. Samadai
Freelancer@1828,

Since you work with lasers, does it have anything to do with the invention of the first electric motor.

Maybe evolution does exist?
craig thrift
1832. gagecreedlives
We certainly do Freelancer.

That actually brought to mind an old joke. Have you ever heard of an aussie kiss?







Its like a french kiss but down under
T C
1833. Freelancer
Samadai@1831

Nope, not electrical in nature, but you've given me a new target #. ::whistles::

Evolution is farther from reality than WoT ever was.
Sam Mickel
1835. Samadai
hmmmm.ok. Perhaps I have a dirty mind but....no I definitely have a dirty mind.
Sam Mickel
1836. Samadai
Freelancer @1833.

I agree but that was my little nod to this game
Wilson Grooms
1837. alreadymadwithimposters
Sigh... this is what I get for not getting my copy right away. Just finished reading, so all the alreadymad posters are impostors.

Also.. some observations:
>for some reason, the word homicidal simply does not fit in a fantasy novel. dunno why.
>yes, I agree, the lack of details on other arcs was a side effect of the Breaking. er... splitting.
>I don't know about you, but I thought Mat's arc was bloody hilarious. Much better than that sorry excuse for a travelling circus.
>finally it's been proven. LTT is not real
>this is the first time the men are depicted as making unnecessary gestures while channeling
Sam Mickel
1838. Samadai
AMW@1837,

I think that (along with several others here) that this proves he was real all along.
Wilson Grooms
1839. alreadymadwithrealandnot
whatever real means.

As far as I'm concerned, the ending proved that the voice was just a figment of Rand's paranoia and stressed out mind. Created to serve as a receptacle for those feelings, impressions and thoughts that Rand could distinguish as not coming from his own life experience. Those that made use of LTT's vaster experience and world view, as well as those that he could ascribe to the madness.

Also... I have an idea now of how it is to end. I was right in assuming the Dark One had to be pushed back from the Bore. But Rand can't use Saidin alone as LTT did since according to LTT this is what tainted Saidin. Touching the Dark One with it. It is possible using Saidin and Saidar can produce a mutal shielding effect. The looney theory is that Rand will use his link to Moridin to channel the True Power. Use that to push back the Dark One while Saidin and Saidar create the Seal. Hence... the Three become one.
T C
1840. Freelancer
amw@1839

Are you for real? Maybe not, but LTT was.


RE: Three become one

Great Scott, Batman, I think you've got it!

Oh wait, that's been around the block a couple of times. Yet that doesn't diminish its merit as a theory. Though some have suggested that using the power of evil to defeat evil was not good juju.

I'm still not saa-tain how I feel about it.
Leslie Annis
1841. Lannis
Blocksmith @ 1810, and Freelancer @ 1811: re: Asmodean and skimming...

Dammit... I *knew* there was a reason no one clarked on to this one earlier... like I said: brain fuzzy day... Thanks guys! :)

@ Free: I wasn't clear enough: I figured that Asmo saw Graendal on the skimming platform before stepping off into the darkness... hence the "You? NO!"

Back to balefire... :|

Lily @ 1815: But would half of Asmo's body be laying there in the palace for someone to stumble upon? No evidence was left behind...

FSS @ 1817: re: "the final death"... yes, that's what the books say, but in a question/answer at a signing, RJ reportedly said that the reason the DO wasn't resurrecting Asmo was because of how and where he died... I just don't have the link (sure it's back in tFoH thread somewhere...).
Sam Mickel
1842. Samadai
What if,

Lots of people keep hoping that one of the Forsaken will realize the error of their ways and join team light. So lets say because of their link that continues to form, Moridin starts questioning his beliefs and decides Rand could be right. Him and Rand are Faced off in the Last Battle when all of a sudden Moridin draws in all of the true power he can and blocks the DO back into his prison. Then Rand and party use Saidin/Saidar to recreate the prison. Moridin has redeemed himself and is no longer spun out to work the DO's will.
T C
1843. Freelancer
Lannis@1841

Gotcha. Much better, though still not a quick enough death.


Samadai@1842

I don't know. Somehow I think that once you've called yourself Ba'alzamon, or even Betrayer of Hope, you're just not very likely to toss it all for a "Go Light!" lapel button.
Sam Mickel
1844. Samadai
Oh, I agree Free. I was just thinking of their link working both ways. I seriously don't believe it, it was just a random thought. interesting though?
James Jones
1845. jamesedjones
1839 alreadymadwithrealandnot

Paranoia? Stressed out mind? Split personalities do not go away because you decide that they are not real. This is a fantasy novel, and LTT was a real personality. None of the evidence fits the qualities of a construct.

Back to silly stuff.

Edit: None of the evidence from tGS fits the qualities of a construct.
matt
1846. mattyh
further observations on usage of particular words:

"grit" (verb) one's teeth
used very sparingly in books 1 to 11, about once per book, maybe less
used over 40 (!!!) times in TGS. this is a sure sign the last battle is coming.

"warp"
used only 3 times in books 1 to 11, to describe the pattern
used over 20 (!!) times in TGS, to describe a physical disturbance in the air. sorilea even SPOKE the word. aiel shouldn't use such words >_>
Roger Powell
1847. forkroot
By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
their flag to April's breeze unfurled
there once the embattled farmers stood
and fired the shot heard round the world.

     Ralph Waldo Emerson

RobMRobM - Yes, Concord. Well done. BTW, we Concordians consider the incident in Lexington to be the scattering of rabble. It wasn't until the British made it to Concord that the war started.

April 19th is a BIG DEAL in Concord. April 19th, 1975 was a HUGE DEAL. Our little town of about 16,000 (at the time) swelled to half a million people, including President Ford. My sister was a radio DJ and got to broadcast from the bridge. It was fun to be part of.

EDIT: Much to my embarrassment, brain fade had me incorrectly attributing the poem to Longfellow. A gentle reminder from our revered Wetlandernw set me straight.
craig thrift
1848. gagecreedlives
Samadai@1842

You got me thinking (good to see something can) about the link between Rand and Moridin. We know Rands physical injuries are affecting Moridin but how far will this develop. Will Rands multiple warder bonds start being felt by Moridin? And say if one of the bonds is snapped will Moridin feel the warder death wish come on. Will he start feeling the love between Rand and his women?
Wonder what an unhealable shadar logath dagger wound would feel like for the champion of the dark?
Wilson Grooms
1849. alreadymadwiththesplit
jamesedjones @1845
Deciding they are not real does not make split personalities go away. Acknowledging where the problem began does begin the process. Acknowledging that he is LTT's rebirth and second chance made him certain he would not hear the voice again.
Roger Powell
1850. forkroot
Lannis@1841

@ Free: I wasn't clear enough: I figured that Asmo saw Graendal on the skimming platform before stepping off into the darkness... hence the "You? NO!"
Then wouldn't it have been:

You?
No
     o
       o
        o
         o
          o
           o
            o!
T C
1851. Freelancer
gagecreedlives@1848

You enumerate all but the most significant of Rand's injuries when considering their impact on Moridin. The one Ishamael himself inflicted, the unhealable wound from his staff over Falme. How about he suffers the pain of that thing for a time. Sweet justice.
Patrick Huff
1852. pattack
#20. How about the DO himself....

Granted he hasn't had but a minor role through SH, but you gotta admit, without him, no story.

In that case, maybe a top 30 list would be better than 20, since many of the posters made legitimate arguements for the 20 spot.

I used to do this for music, create a top ten and invariably someone would get left out.

I don't think its all that important to list charactors by worth to the story. All the charactors are important to the overall strength of the story and its integrity. I've never been one for popularity contests anyway.

One of my favorite charactors is mother Guenna, I'm guessing she didn't even make the top 100..
Rob Munnelly
1853. RobMRobM
Fork @1847 - of course I knew you were from that area from our Kimballs discussion many posts ago. Pretty easy guess in context.

I'm south down 95 and a bit west in one of the W towns - close enough to make it to Kimballs in a particularly desperate moment when our then-infant son wouldn't sleep and the DW really wanted a sundae, but not close enough to get there more then a few times since then (he's now 12).

I'm originally a North Shore coastal kind of guy myself, but I have walked over the rude bridge, canoed down the river and had lunch at the Concord Inn.

Rob
Roger Powell
1854. forkroot
Freelancer@1843
Samadai@1842

I don't know. Somehow I think that once you've called yourself Ba'alzamon, or even Betrayer of Hope, you're just not very likely to toss it all for a "Go Light!" lapel button.
Well he assumed those names before he crossed balefire with Rand. You must admit that Moridin doesn't quite seem like his old "BWAHAHA" self in that fireside chat with Rand.

They were almost, dare I say it, "chummy"?

I wonder how Moridin felt during the time that Rand was collared? If he had to give permission for Rand to draw the TP (though I doubt it), I could see him very much in favor of using the TP to destroy the collar.

Then there's the whole issue of him claiming Rand invaded his dream.

Definitely something's up with our #1 dark-side dude. Not claiming he's coming to the light ... I honestly don't know.
Carl Jennings
1855. atergoboy
The only way I see for the Song to be found is for a Tinker to go to Rhuidean...

A little over halfway through TGS...
Roger Powell
1856. forkroot
RobMRobM@1853
I'm originally a North Shore coastal kind of guy myself
Ah, then you are undoubtedly acquainted with the finest fried clams in the world at the Clam Box. My stomach rumbles even now as I pine for them.

pattack@1852
#20. How about the DO himself....

Granted he hasn't had but a minor role through SH, but you gotta admit, without him, no story.
Granted, but that's why I excepted the DO and Creator when I introduced the list.
I don't think its all that important to list charactors by worth to the story. All the charactors are important to the overall strength of the story and its integrity. I've never been one for popularity contests anyway.
It was just a fun exercise, and another topic to help us drive toward 2000 posts. I originally had only a top 10, but agonized enough over that that I had to expand it to 20.
One of my favorite charactors is mother Guenna, I'm guessing she didn't even make the top 100..
I don't even know who she is, so yeah probably not the top 100. Heck WoT has so many characters, maybe she's not in the top 1000?

My favorite obscure character is Mutch, a stablehand in Baerlon with a tude.

EDIT: Looked up Mother Guenna - jogged my memory. She's the herbalist in Tear. She makes the Top 1000 for sure :-)
Rob Munnelly
1857. RobMRobM
Fork - been to Clam Box but my spouse and friends tend to join the crowds at Woodman's when we're up in that area. (My home territory is a fair bit south of that.)

Guenna is the Tairen wisdom in TDR. Cool for her limited screen time but top 50 at best. I'd almost rather go for Perrin's blacksmith buddy from that era or, even better Daerid from the Band.
Leslie Annis
1858. Lannis
Free @ 1843:

Somehow I think that once you've called yourself Ba'alzamon, or even Betrayer of Hope, you're just not very likely to toss it all for a "Go Light!" lapel button.

BAHAHAHAhahahahhaha! ::wipes tear::

forkroot @ 1850: BAHAhahaha!

Okay, I need to stop sipping my drink while reading posts... wiping away drips... was going to put "I need to stop drinking and posting" but it somehow didn't embody what I meant... ;)

Go Light!
Barry T
1859. blindillusion
Don't know if he's a favorite obscure character, but he's the reason I'm always glad I have my own bathroom when I read tEotW. Who you might wonder?...

Ara, our favorite bath attendant at the Stag and Lion.

He's also responsible for showing us our first glimpse of the Wonder Boys' ta'veren effect.


~~digging toe in the sand~~ can I have a "Go Light!" lapel button if Moridin doesn't want his?
craig thrift
1860. gagecreedlives
freelancer@1851

Very true. Sweet justice indeed.

forkroot@1854

I think both of em are just exhausted. Both know that they are in the end game but its not quite time for them to fight yet. And hopefully we get a Moridin PoV me thinks this bond between the pair disturbs him more than he lets on. Could be interesting times if Demandred figures out whats going on. Its not like he has a great love for either

For what its worth my favourite obscure characters are Betse the barmaid and Ross from the Wandering Woman. He only has one line but it’s a corker.
Sara H
1861. LadyBelaine
My favorite obscure characters are Mulaen, the bitchy head housekeeper in the damane kennels in Falme, and Elansu, the harridan of a head housekeeper in the Tairen Stone, who was able to resist Thom's charm ;)
Wilson Grooms
1862. Tektonica
First, I must say.....I am so major league impressed with all of you experts! I've read these books at least 2 times completely and scanned another time or two. I've followed Leigh's read throughs, with great amusement and I've explored various websites on and off for several years. And I know NOTHING compared to you guys. Thank you so much for filling in my blank spots!

Next for the frustration part.....I log in several times a day trying desperately to keep pace, but alas, I'm always hundreds behind, again. I've read certain sections in depth and scanned others, but from my 4:30 log in today until now, at 9:06pm, 67 new posts have gone up....and this is considerably slower than it was at the beginning. Help!! (Not that I want you all to stop! I'd miss you so! ) It's really fun seeing all the personalities out here in the cyber WOT.

A few quick responses.....

Freelancer, #1651, beautiful prose, succinct and cogent. Do you write for a living?

RobMRobM, #1714, love your idea for character arcs. I'll have to work on that off line and post later....Glad you picked Mat to talk about...my personal Fav POV.
Also RobM, # 1733, what is rickrolled?

I really hate to show my ignorance here, but hey, how else will I learn....
what is IMHO and RAFO? Fill me in, please and I'll try to be smarter form now on. I'm kind of a newbie to this online chat thingy.

Which brings me to my last question.....why is my name still red? How long or how many posts do you have to do before you can just blend in? I see people here I've never seen before and they "blend". Just asking.....

Maybe I need to bake cookies? Oatmeal chocolate chip anyone?
Noneo Yourbusiness
1863. Longtimefan
As to the "where" for Asmodean's death. Would not Tel'aran'rhiod be a bit closer to a "where" that would relate to what had been happening in Caemlyn prior to his death? Tel'aran'rhoid is a strong location in books 4-6 as Rand and Egwene enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh and Perrin is "too strongly" there according to Hopper. This may be a "clue" spread out amongst the characters.


The Forsaken can because the can channel and enter in the flesh by opening a portal or in Moghedien's case while sleeping somehow. Isam/Luc has his own way in but I suspect it is his own skill and not something the Dark One can utilize to reach in to the world of dreams.

Could it be possible that who ever wanted to kill Asmodean opened a portal to Tel'aran'rhiod and disguised it as a pantry door which he opened and then subsequently died in a place where death is the same as in the waking world?

Weather the disguise was intentional to lure him or just a way of hiding it until they exited the world of dreams I will not speculate.

Not to dismiss the skimming idea but just a thought I had because it was being discussed.
R B
1864. MasterAlThor
Freelancer...

Jules Vern and Tolstoy were born.

Andrew Jackson won the Presidency, by the way I dated one of his decendants.

Asomdean's death.

I am starting to really think that he wasn't killed by the One Power because some one would have felt the weave. I don't think that it was Fain or Slayer either as they had no reason to kill him.

I think that who ever did knew that he was not Jasin Natal but Asmodean.

I just irks me that I can't figure it out.
Leslie Annis
1865. Lannis
Tektonica @ 1862: This is rickrolled.


Sorry guys, I couldn't resist... ;)

EDIT (following):

Oh, and Tektonica, to be grey you have to register and log in to Tor.com. It's free, and has some perks--like the ability to read the preview chapters of tGS before it's release last month.

Oatmeal chocolate chip, yummy! Feel free to have some apple pie, there's plenty, and I'll be making more tomorrow! Raisin, too. :)
craig thrift
1866. gagecreedlives
Tektonica@1862

Welcome to the party

IMHO = In my honest opinion
RAFO = Read and find out

And to become part of the grey ghosts of the forest you have to become a registered user.

Happy to take cookies and show you where the refreshments are in the bunker.

*edit*

That is if Subwoofer hasnt consumed them all
Barry T
1867. blindillusion
Tektonica, as I'm writing this I'm sure others are responding as well. But...

IMHO = In my honest opinion

RAFO = Read and find out

And to "blend" you'll need to register wit Tor.com.

And Oatmeal chocolate chip cookies will be a fine addition to the bunker.

I'm bringing yellow BBQ sauce myself...made with mustard. Seems a fav here in my local.

edit: See Tek...and it makes me smile to know I was right. Hands down one of the better online communities I've ever been part of.
Rob Munnelly
1868. RobMRobM
Tek - welcome. Pull up a chair. Happy to have some of your cookies.

Yeah, I like Mat too.

IMHO - in my humble option - common web abbreviation in some circles.

RAFO - read and find out - favorite response to Robert Jordan himself to fan questions.

To turn gray, you need to register at Tor.com. Not hard to do and you no longer have to deal with authentication code to post.

Free is not a professional writer, but he plays one on this website. In real life, he works with fricken laser beams....
Leslie Annis
1869. Lannis
Oh, and for Tektonica and anyone else wondering, some of the acronyms and short forms we use (DO = Dark One; RPM = Rand, Mat, Perrin; Supergirls = Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne) are WOT related, but not all. Some, like IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), or FWIW (For What It's Worth) can be found online. Google the letters and the word "lingo" or "slang" and it'll pop up on the Urban Dictionary or elsewhere.

Gotta exercise that Google-fu to keep it strong! ;)
Alice A
1870. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @ 1765 - Cool! He was a major factor in naming our firstborn. Also - very cool nick source. Thanks (again) for your service. Hadn't worked much on the puzzle - I've been pretty busy the last few days. Glad to see it solved so I don't feel guilty for not getting it right away... ;)

Joanne @1775 - Let me add my welcome to that of others, and say.....when you seriously consider asking Brandon Sanderson on writing advice ... on your Ph.D thesis. ROFL!!! My daughter is once again convinced that mom's just a bit nuts. Sad, when you're only 6 years old.

@1792 What dream about Perrin's white shroud? The only "shroud" I recall from the dreams was "Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud."

1799 jamesedjones - You made me think of something... What if Perrin was supposed to have been there to prevent Semi from putting the DB on Rand, and he wasn't? Min's viewing said
"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever.... But with two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you [Rand]...." "If he's not, something bad will happen to you." "Very bad." Rand: "Then I'll just have to keep him around." Min: "I don't know that that will be enough, it will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."
Does the use of the TP, and the ensuing black aura, constitute "very bad"? Just a thought... maybe this was what Perrin was supposed to have been around to prevent, and he didn't because he got sidetracked. (Not that I call rescuing your wife from slavery a bad idea, you understand; being there for Rand at the cost of losing your beloved new wife, probably forever? That would NOT be an easy call, no matter how some fans hate the story line.) Anyway, if this was IT, I hope we find out...

Freelancer @1820 re: Latra Posae Decume... I too have wondered this, although I didn't think about it enough (or at the right time) to have brought it up here. I think at the time I assumed that there must have been some indication in the language that made it clear that "Shadow" was the direct object rather than the possesive. However, given the "difficulties of precise translation," maybe so not. I'm at least tentatively on the DF side, though I doubt we'll ever know, more's the pity.

Forkroot @1821 - Was going to guess Boston; different poem by the author you cite, previous day. (Not to step on your toes, but didn't Emerson write Concord Hymn?)

And just because I have to... on the subject of gurus. Let me say first that I in no way even begin to approach Leigh's level of guruhood!! In fact, her work on the FAQ is the source or at least starting point for probably 75% of my inputs here. (And, by the way, several of her colleagues from that effort post on here occasionally, as well. We just don't recognize their nicknames very often. I see you guys...) Thanks to thewindrose,
"The syllable gu means shadows The syllable ru, he who disperses them, Because of the power to disperse darkness the guru is thus named."
I am both more flattered and more humbled to be thought of as a guru. Truth be told, I'm basically an obsessive-compulsive with a sporadic eidetic memory. (It's sort of a modified version of the popular "photographic memory" term, for those who haven't heard me say it before.) Since I remember so much of what I read, whenever someone asks a question and I know I've read the answer (or the lack of answer, if you know what I mean), I love to be able to provide it. I know it can be a very annoying "know-it-all" or "ooh-ooh-girl" kind of trait, but on the other hand, if I can contribute to the dispersing of the darkness, well... YAY! So thanks, all, for letting me be part of these good times.
Roger Powell
1871. forkroot
Tektonica@1862
IMHO - In my humble opinion
Variants:
IMO - In my opinion
IMNSHO - In my not so humble opinion
IMSOO - In my significant other's opinion
ITOOSRDOTS - In the opinion of some random dude on the street


RAFO - "Read and Find Out!" A phrase used to maddening effect by the original Creator (Robert Jordan) and now the exclusive property of one Brandon Sanderson. It means "I'm not answering your question, and if you are lucky you might see it answered in one of the future volumes."
Leslie Annis
1872. Lannis
Blind @ 1867:

Hands down one of the better online communities I've ever been part of.

I second that! Cheers! :)
R B
1873. MasterAlThor
Dont forget Rob that he lives near the coast. So he may already have a pool full of sharks for those laser beams.

LOL.

HI Tek ::waves::

Welcome to the Dark Side of the Moon.
Rob Munnelly
1874. RobMRobM
Wet - good point. I nominate Linda for one of the open guru slots. Linda of 13th depository fame, that is. A remarkable, if not out and out mindblowing, website if you haven't visited. Rob
Roger Powell
1875. forkroot
Wetlandernw@1870
Gah! Yes, of course it was Emerson. I knew that.. but the old brain betrayed me when I posted in haste. That one's worth an EDIT.

Longfellow did the "One if by land, Two if by sea" poem which is also read at the ceremonies since it documents Revere's ride that warned the patriots. And just so there's no confusion, I'm aware that Revere didn't make it to Concord, but Samuel Prescott (whom he picked up on the way) did.
R B
1876. MasterAlThor
Wetlandernw...

Were ya been. Subwoofer, forkroot and Freelancer have been getting out of hand. Do you know how hard it is to keep these guys in line?

Since you are hear (forkroot you chime in on this too) do you think that Asmodean was killed with the One Power?

Edit: That should be here not hear
Roger Powell
1877. forkroot
M A T - Since you asked, I was firmly in the "Graendal did it" camp, which would imply the One Power. Now that she's been BF'd into oblivion I'm not so sure. Sanderson has promised to reveal Asmo's killer (I was hoping he'd do in TGS, but noooo he had to keep us wondering.)

If Graendal did do it, then we'll either need a flashback or maybe it'll come up in CONVERSATION WITH THE BIG NASTY WHO DOESN'T USE LOWER CASE.
R B
1878. MasterAlThor
The thing that bothers me the most about Asmodean death is that he stumbled upon his killer. His killer wasn't hiding in the pantry, but it soes seem like he/she was waiting for him to open the door.

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.

"You? No!"

The word still hung in the air when death took him.


How in the nine hells would anyone know where Jasin Natael was or was going to be. So they could sit right where they needed to be in order to kill him with no witnesses? How do they even know their way around the Royal Palace?
Wilson Grooms
1879. Tektonica
Thank you all, Gagecreedlives, RobM, Blindillusion, Lannis, Forkroot, MasteralThor for the cyberslang info! I'll be so cool now! What a great community.....and I feel so much smarter now!

I thought I did register when I signed up for this? No? I get emails everyday from Tor.com now....I'll check further.....

KZK@1792,
Isn't Berelain's man in white Galad? Wasn't there some mention a few books back about her falling for a handsome man in white? A Min viewing? I know I didn't make this up. (Now I need to know how to check my facts!) Anyway, Galad's handsome and a "whitecloak", yes? Help me out here anyone, if you remember this.

Nightbaron@1796 or RobM@1802,
Re: The Song...Isn't that what the Ogier sang in the AOL to make the crops grow? (Lightbulb moment: Don't the Seanchan call their elite Ogier troops Gardeners?) So there is a Song or Songs. Someone a zillion entries ago mentioned that Rand might know those songs if he does access those old memories. Maybe Perrin finds them in the Wolfdream? Or perhpas Mat the Bard in training with his ancient memories? Did RobM go over all this already?

Anyway, thank you all and I'll go back to baking now......
Tricia Irish
1880. Tektonica
Just a quick check to see if I'm "gray" now...

I had registered ages ago, but didn't sign in! Duh.
Think I've got it right now....

Thanks! Group hug.
Barry T
1881. blindillusion
Tektronica@1879

Do you log-in at the top of the screen though?

I actually clicked the remember me button and wonder of wonders...it actually remembers me everytime. Even at work, and with Vista my computer is so firewalled I can hardly do any real work. But Tor.com always comes through. YAY!!
Leslie Annis
1882. Lannis
K... was just on Facebook and there's a Storm Leader report from Lexington KY, that had some answers to some of our questions...

Below are some of the additional facts/snippets/details I picked up while taking notes throughout the evening.

This is perhaps old hat by now, but Brandon has coined new term MAFO referring to Maria, one of the fact handlers behind Wheel of Time. She sometimes wears a RAFO hat and tips it for Brandon when he can’t give someone an answer.

Brandon’s introduction to Fantasy came by way of three female authors: Barbara Hambly, Anne McCaffrey, and I missed the third (sorry).

Brandon said there would be a sequel trilogy to Mistborn and also a short story spin-off that would likely be posted online.

Harriet indicated that the Bloodwrasps mentioned in TGS is not a typo of Bloodwasps and is a new thing we haven’t seen yet.

Brandon says of the five Redarms that enter Hinderstap with Mat that the three that seem unaccounted for when everyone else escapes are not “forgotten” and their circumstances are RAFO. He also said that he appreciates the finding of continuity errors so that they can be corrected before books go to paperback, but they are an unavoidable part of the business. He doesn’t like when authors ignore continuity on purpose, but understands accidents.

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

Brandon admitted there would be overlapping chronology between The Gathering Storm and The Towers of Midnight and that Graendal’s name will be mentioned a few times.

Brandon said the progress of book completion is sometimes edited down and then up depending on the subtraction or addition of submitted content.

Jordan’s outline for WoT’s conclusion was about 2500 pages.

Brandon is a fan of Jerry Garcia ties.

Jordan was intentionally vague about the issue of Rand and Lews Therin’s one soul and what part madness played in the two identities.

Brandon’s pregnant wife is due in late Jan / early Feb.

When it comes to Asmodean’s death or possibility of rebirth or potential killers, Brandon seems oddly obsessed with balefire being the means of death when discussing talking points.


Sorry for the wall of text, guys... but I thought it might be interesting--and not everyone is out and about on FB. Oh, and to be clear: this is not my note... just linking/copy/pasting. There's actually a whole report and pics, too! Enjoy! :)

Oh, and Tek: you're welcome. :)
Wilson Grooms
1883. Branwhin
@Woofer! Gracious! I didn't realize you were a Winterpegger too, if only temporarily (the military does tend to shift one about)!

"but being in PPCLI, I was a lean bugger and literally, half the man I am now. God, it was the best of times and very real. You do get to see the character of men in times of war."

Oh, and because I didn't post yesterday, *HUG* for you and all our other Service members out there, regardless of nationality.

And also @1624 (on an unrelated note), isn't Leane a brunette?

Brannie
Richard Swafford
1884. joebobrich
Did anybody else find it just a tad sappy that "LUV" is the solution to Rand's breakdown/meltdown, deeper underlying problems? Not bad sappy, but just a bit eh. I felt the same way after watching "The Fifth Element." Not bad, but just a bit sappy.

One big thing tho: Where the heck is the "Creator" in all this? The Dark One and his minions are moving about the world, but do the "good guys" get any help from the all mighty being on their side? It's easy to see that Rand is being set up as a type of Christ figure, but there's something suspicious in this magically balanced world (saidar/saidin, yin/yang, etc) that the Light and the Creator are absent.

One last question: Who ever said that the True Power is exclusively something of the Dark One? I think the poster who interpreted "the 3 shall be one" has to do with TP, Saidin & Saidar is on to something.
Alice A
1885. Wetlandernw
Longtimefan @ 1863 - I agree that TAR is a likely "where" for Asmodean's death, especially since, as you point out, death there is really really dead if you are there "in the flesh."

My biggest problem is that he seems to be going on a random wander, opens a random door, and BLAM - "death took him." How do you set a trap for someone who is wandering randomly around a place he doesn't know, catch only that person, and have no one else find out about it? This, of course, applies to ANY suspect. I just don't see how they caught him. Unless it was a random trap, too, but that makes no sense at all. Why set a trap and disguise it as a small door that looks like it might lead to a pantry? GAH!! This makes my head hurt.

@various, RJ said it wasn't Padan Fain, so you don't have to worry about that one any more.

MasterAlThor @ 1876 - Been lurking a lot and trying to read the posts, but I've been awfully busy lately. Glad to see things are still strong here! (FWIW, I have a small boy with a severe learning disability. Since we do a combination of private- and home-schooling, it involves a fair amount of work at times. Seems to go in cycles, and lately it's been on the heavy side.)

As for Asmodean, along with what I said in the first paragraph, I think it's quite likely he was killed with the OP, but there's no evidence I can point to. I don't think it was Slayer, just because I don't think so. No good reason. I don't have any really satisfactory theory, truth be told. As I said, it makes my brain hurt just to try to figure out how to work the trap. But you said the same thing in your next post, more or less.

Tektonica @1879 - Wow, I never thought of that before. What if the Seanchan Ogier still know the seed-singing? As you say, the "Gardeners"... Oh, wouldn't that be a fun little loopy twist - the Tinkers will find the song when they hook up with the Seanchan Ogier somehow. Too funny to even think about!

blindillusion @ 1881 - "...my computer is so firewalled I can hardly do any real work. But Tor.com always comes through." Hey, that's the first good thing I've heard about Vista in ages! It's got something right after all. ;)

joebobrich @1884 - Somebody on the signing tour (Harriet or Brandon, I think) said that the True Power is the essence of the DO, or something to that effect. Once I get this w-o-t posted, I'll go find it in context and provide it here. Meant to do that before now. Oh, and re: your question about "where is the Creator"... I don't have an answer. It's one of the things that has always slightly irritated me in WoT - it seems to be a very deistic setup, and even though it's well written and consistent, it's just a "thing" that always gives me an itch. I dislike deism.
Rob Munnelly
1886. RobMRobM
@1883. I don't believe the books expressly state Leane's hair color but as a domani with coppery skin I assumed she'd have reddish hair. Rob
Rob Munnelly
1887. RobMRobM
@1885 - Wet, my 12 year old has big issues that require a special learning environment. Been through very heavy work periods with him in past but he's doing well now and increasingly self-reliant, so life is good. My ten year old daughter, however, is developing pre-teen attitude in a big way....

Rob
T C
1888. Freelancer
Tektonica@1862

First off, you've clearly no need to become "smarter". More knowledgable, ok. Then again, which of us shouldn't always be striving for that? To not ask the question is to demonstrate true ignorance. The other kind can always be alleviated, that kind is forever.

Next, thank you for the kind words. Writing has never been a vocation of mine, but writing in different forms has been a necessary part of many of the things I've done. Sometimes I manage to impersonate eloquence, much more often I border on sadly boring, with a terrible habit of correcting errors. ::cough::

Oh, and if I were to choose, oatmeal raisin is always, always the bomb.


RobMRobM@1868

The way you say it almost makes it seem interesting.


Wetlandernw@1870

Great catch on the Min viewing about Perrin, Guru!(Hey, if they won't let me do the Perrin "I'm a blacksmith" thing, then you are so stuck). Another of the things Jordan does so well within his foreshadowing is not only the expected type, but the negative or unexpected. For there to be two events where something very bad "might" happen to Rand, it would be on par for them not to have much in common. I think the collaring and choking of Min qualifies. It was definitely very bad.


MasterAlThor@1873

Well, unless I get my billion dollars.


MasterAlThor@1878

Not meaning to pick on you here, but this always gets me. That door that Asmodean opens, not only is it not a pantry door, but the text doesn't even say that he thinks it is. He's just wandering about looking for a pantry, and opens a door in a random hallway. Maybe it's a through door, maybe not. The key phrase is
intending to find his way to the pantry
So he doesn't believe he's there yet.
Yes, I know this doesn't help solve a thing.


Tektonica@1879

The man in Min's viewing about Berelain falling head over heels for a man in white is not identified. Galad has been the strong favorite ever since he joined the Children. And a stronger favorite now that they've met. Oh yes they have, just not on screen yet. So yes, it is probably Galad.


Lannis@1882

Thank you! That certainly will help when I'm parsing out the questions for Brandon at the local signing. Still taking inputs if anyone has a question left burning their innards.


joebobrich@1884

Not sappy at all, in my opinion. Real. The great majority of emotional distresses are related to a perceived lack of love, or loss of love, or guilt over having hurt a loved one. No, the veins of gold matter so much more than most credit them for.
As for the True Power, given that it's use is exclusively by permission of the Dark One, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.


Oh, BTW. In 1828 Noah Webster published the world's finest English dictionary.
Rob Munnelly
1889. RobMRobM
Free - you of course may ask whether the Two Rivers' most desirable bachelor will be married by the end of the series....


EDIT: or ask whether we will find out the source of Morgase's knowledge of Two Rivers speech in EOTW.
Thomas Keith
1890. insectoid
Free @1888: Oatmeal raisin cookies? Where...where?? :)

Man, someone mentions Asmodean and suddenly we're nearly to the 20th century of comments...

Which made me laugh when I said that to myself out loud. ;D
Wilson Grooms
1891. Aye Aye Sedai
1888. Freelancer - Questions for you to ask

Can you ask if it correct to assume that Cadsuane role is to teach Rand to Laugh and Love or can we expect a different life lesson? Perhaps this lesson was learned in this Book? If so will BS be giving her a grand death as he so desires? Perhaps spanked to death?

Was the Compulsion on Elza from SH or Verin - ( I read it as being from SH and then later figured it may have been from Verin way back in the Aiel tents.)

And if SH cannot be physical ( ie did not grab the bracelet) - how can he effect his punishments.

Can an AS write a lie if they know no-one else reads it? (ie can Verin put in betrayals of the 3 dark oaths in writing and thus the 10 day requirement - ie was she in TV 9 or 10 days after leaving the note with Matt?)

Ask what are the wording of the Three Oaths.
Alice A
1892. Wetlandernw
RobMRobM @1889 - Oh, I like that last question. "Will we find out the source of Morgase's knowledge of TR speech?" :) And thanks for the encouragement up at 1887. There are times it's too easy to feel alone.

In other news, I couldn't find the quote about the True Power being the essence of the DO; I'll keep looking. I just have to remember where all I was web-wandering the other night. *sigh* But as Freelancer pointed out, we do have this quote from one of the Storm Leader reports:
Brandon explained that the True Power can only be used by someone that the Dark One has allowed to use it. The True Power is perhaps more powerful then the One Power in the way a drugged up person is more powerful then someone not drugged up. In the moment the drugged up person may be, but in the long run maybe not. Further explaining the True Power he said the guardian in Far Madding cannot stop it.

A couple of others I hadn't seen before:

1. When asked about Rand’s new sword, Brandon acknowledged that most people assume it is Artur Hawkwing’s and that Rand had last seen it at Falme in The Great Hunt. Brandon did not outright declare this to be true, but he did agree that the logic makes sense. [note from Wetlandernw: This makes me think it's totally wrong! Then again, maybe it was supposed to have that effect. Sounds like we'll find out, anyway.]

2. Even Brandon had moments of “Aaaah! I knew it!” He also has had the “wait, really?” moments and often, while going through notes, has said, “Ah, that group is right!” (Referring to groups on the message boards.) He also confided that there is one thing that isn’t being discussed on any of the forums yet that will blow our minds when we read it.

3. [Brandon] also said that the series’ ending puts certain threads in perspective. For example, Morgase, my least favorite character, apparently turns out to be less annoying than she appears. Also, fans will better be able to understand the importance of some of the lesser- liked books, like Crossroads of Twilight. [W: Good news, folks!]

4. [W: Here's one that cracks me up, from the Midnight Release party:] Q: Will any previously unknown Black Ajah members be revealed? A: I will yes that. Yes, there will be Black Ajah members revealed in The Gathering Storm. [W: HAH! Ya think?]

And finally,

Robert Jordan never really intended to clarify on whether Rand is hearing Lews Therin because he’s insane or if he’s really there. [note from W: yes, I know I posted this before, but I thought I'd point it out again in case someone missed it. And cares.]
Alice A
1893. Wetlandernw
I finally found it. In the Storm Leader report from Milford, NH: "...we started asking him our own questions, everything from the nature of the True Source (it is, in essence the soul of the Dark One)..." So there it is. Paraphrased per the writer's memory, but clearly of the DO and not of the Creator.

EDIT: I just realized that she said the "True Source" instead of the "True Power" but it's fairly clear what she meant. People get those mixed up a lot for some reason.
Noneo Yourbusiness
1894. Longtimefan
@ Wetlander,

I really do not know how to account for Asmodean wandering into a trap. Unless the trap was woven into his dreams or laid down in front of him from a strategic vantage point.

Then again it could just be random chance that he stumbled on the door that hid the gateway and the person behind it had woven a trap or was poised to kill anyone who may have opened the door.

Is it possible he was dreaming? I do not know. His point of view seems to be one of someone who is awake but... it has been said that some people when dreaming had no idea that they were in the Dream World. Wondering and being lost are common actions in dreams.

Also just to be generally annoying to the Tam/Morgase crowd I am going to submit that it cannot happen because.....

Tam is gay.

I can hear people flinching over the internet. Here is my reasoning (tongue in cheek)

He did not conceive Rand with Kari as Rand had already been born. He and Kari never had any other children. He never married again even though in the Eye of the World it is hinted at that the women of the Two Rivers were trying to get him married again.

hmmmmm..... sounds like the classic non practicing gay man that literature is often fond of.


On the more realistic note (of fiction), I am more inclined to believe that he is just one of those people who love once and do not need to marry again.

My grandmother never married or even dated after my grandfather died and lived for 27 years after he passed. She had 15 grandchildren to keep her occupied so maybe that had something to do with it. :) There are some grandchildren in Tam's future.
Nicholas Forrester
1895. Roy007
@926 "I've already written off seeing Elaida go "oops!" when she finds out Rand fulfills her Andorian foretellings"

I just thought of one way that we could still see that scene.

Rand and Tuon meet at the negotiation table again and someone makes a quip about Rand's "common" parentage and Rand reveals his father was an Aiel clan chief and his mother the Daughter Heir of Andor. In the background Elaida the damane is so damn shocked she draws Rand's attention to her and he recognizes her and turns back to Tuon his anger reignited and Tuon is unable to resist this time and the Seanchan become bound to the Dragon.
Barry T
1896. blindillusion
I think I'll take a stab at the who killed Asmodean conundrum. insert Wall of Text here

Let's look at the final moments of his life:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.


Well, first off, the blood draining from his face. What if it wasn't the person he saw that caused this reaction, but what the person he saw was doing that caused it. Maybe he stumbled upon a murder.

Second, the question, "You?" Now, as a result of there being no inflection in Asmodean's voice, who's to say the question was asked in fear? Could he have made on observation and been asking, "What are you doing here?"

Third, there's the exclamation "No!" Now, what's one way of being killed in this series that would give the recipient of said method time to exclaim anything?

Why, balefire, of course. Let's look at some of the evidence provided by tGS:

After some very descriptive scenes of Rand powering up the access key in A Force of Light we get:
Something impossibly bright formed in the air before him, and Min cried out, backing away. The air itself seemed to warp, as if pulling away from Rand in fear. Dust blew from the ground in a circle around him, and the trees groaned, lit by the brilliant white light, the pine needles rattling like a hundred thousand insects scrambling over one another. Min could no longer make out Rand, only a blazing, brilliant force of light. Pure power, gathered, making the hairs on her arms rise with the force of its nubulous energy.

And from The One He Lost we have:
A prick of light grew in front of Rand, sprouting from the center of the access key. The weaves for balefire spun before him, and the access key grew brighter as he drew in more power.
By that light, Rand saw his father's face, looking up at him.
Terrified.


Well, obviously, balefire is noticeable before it's direct use upon something/someone. So, imagine it on a much, much smaller scale and you have the reason for Asmodean's exclamation, "No!" This also gives him time to say “No!” before the stream is let loose.

Finally, Asmodean's last word hung in the air when death took him. Seems like a pretty clear result of using balefire. The echo(?), or perhaps simply the sound of the word, was still there while his body has (man I hate to use this word but I cannot think of another one to use) disintegrated.

So, I wrote all that to say that perhaps Asmodean wasn't surprised by who he saw behind that door. Perhaps he was surprised by what he saw happening behind that door. And he cried out because he saw his death coming in a "prick of light" he could do nothing about.

I'd have to say this scene probably lasted longer than many of us think. Asmodean opened the door and had at least a few seconds to absorb what was happening in the room, which led to the physical reaction. He had a moment to wonder out loud about the person behind the door. Then he had time to defy the inevitable. Perhaps 20-30 seconds all told.

Now, I have no intention of postulating just who was behind that door. When it comes to suspect numero uno, Graendal, I've never thought she lacked motive to kill Asmodean, but I have always wondered what would be a reason for her to be in the Royal Palace of Caemlyn of all places.

As to the possibility that Asmodean stumbled upon something he shouldn't have I'll ask this: Did anyone else go missing at this time who simply hasn't been missed yet?

(I realize there are probably some earlier examples of balefire being used, but these work fairly well. As to the time I alloted for the scene to play out...it's only a guess. It depends on how quickly he took to absorb what he was seeing. And of course, I could always been dead wrong =). I'm hoping you guys will have fun tearing this one apart...or agreeing with me.)

3 More Points:
~Yes, I feel absolutely dirty for the stream is let loose comment.

~I've always been taught that "hung" is NOT the past tense of "hang". In fact, my Renaissance and Reformation professor not only made note of this in the paper I'd written for him, he also took a few seconds out of his lecture to mention it to the class...thankfully he didn't name names. Oddly enough, I'd written that paper compairing Rand's hanging of Mangin to some tidbit of fact I don't recall which happened during that era.

~And "prick" of light...snicker.
Carl Jennings
1897. atergoboy
From what I remember, pictures are 'hung' and people are 'hanged'
Barry T
1898. blindillusion
Well, he was a young professor. The word 'hung' has gone the way of so many other words, i.e. straight from their original meanings to their modern, vulgar, "slang" meanings.

Sad, really, when you think about it.

Consider my other two points at the end of that comment and you should be able to draw a picture of where I was going with those points.
Bouke de Boer
1899. Bouke
OK, I'm only at comment 180 or so, but couldn't wait to point out some of my findings. Here goes.

1. Rand's new sword. I'm firmly in the Justice camp for a number of reasons. Rand knows the sword from his own memories and later on also makes the connection with Falme, i.e. Hawkwing. Secondly, in the WOTFAQ, Justice is named as a reference to the Hallows (3.06).

2. Tuon / Fortuona. Disregarding all comments above about Fortuona being a really stupid name (to which I don't agree), I thought it pretty well thought out that the new name of the Daughter of the Nine Moons / Empress includes her old name, but expands on it. Haven't seen any mention of that fact yet, but like I said, I'm only at comment 180 right now...

EDIT: @191, the first one...


3. Rand vs food spoiling. The biggest example of this were the warehouses in Bandar Eban, but really, there are more instances of this happening throughout the book. The one that sprung out at me the most was Nyneave's tea spoiling while she's in the room with Rand. That definitely happened right after she saw the dark aura around him expanding.

4. About the different style of BrS (BS does indeed bring other images to mind). I mainly had this feeling during the first few chapters. After that, the story had sucked me in, so I was too preoccupied to notice. Then again, I think I was also influenced a lot by al the comments on these chapters as they were pre-released. Self-fulfilling prophecy much?

5. The cover art. There have been major issues posted with the US cover art. I have only one thing to say: Luckily, I'm reading the UK version of the books...

6. There was a comment about Rand respawning multiple times between LTT and himself so he could have recognized the sword from those memories. I seem to recall reading somewhere that some heroes are only respawned at great moments and not every generation or so, and that LTT/Rand/The Dragon was one of these. But, since I already explained my Justice-theory, it is obvious that I don't buy this "respawn and remember"-theory.


In short: loved the book, can't wait for ToM!!
Thomas Keith
1900. insectoid
1900...Mercy!

Bouke @1899: Do you suppose the food spoilage (e.g. Nyn's tea) in Rand's presence might have something to do with his contact with the True Power and/or Moridin?
Wilson Grooms
1901. procreator
After all the discussion about the three different Powers (or Sources), I've been wondering about the apparent lack of the Creator's direct interaction with the events in the real world. Are we perhaps leading up to a point when the three Powers will be used together and produce the missing Power - that of the Creator? In other words, has the original Power - that of the Creator - been divided by the misdeeds of the DO as part of his evil intentions?

Just a thought - I suspect you've all discussed this before now and I've missed it!
Bouke de Boer
1902. Bouke
insectoid @1900: It has been raised before, also by Leigh, that Rand's evilness is a result of his link with Moridin. I think you are right that this link is influential (though I think this has more to with Moridin himself than the TP). Evilness + ta'veren = muy muy mal.

procreator @1901: the fact that the Creator plays no role in this whole thing is not something unique to Randland. Compare this to the biblical setting, where god takes no active hand, but uses prophets etc. to do good, whereas his counterpart, the devil, is portrayed as an actual "person", taking a much more direct approach.
So I don't think that we have yet to see the creator 'stepping in'. He (or she) (or whatever)'s just not that kind of guy (or gall) (or whatever).


Another point that I wanted to make: I believe this is the first book where a FS gets offed before the book's climax? (and TWO at that!)
Probably due to the many wind-ups that have to be maden, but still... Thoughts?
Cheryl
1903. First Selector
@1899/1900/1902:
I tend to think food spoilage and dark spook aura were from Rand having touched the TP not just the connection to Moridin himself (as that's been in place for awhile now). I also think that touching the TP has skewed Rand's ta'veren twist to the bad.

LongTimeFan - The idea that Asmo was asleep and dreaming when he died is intriguing. I don't know if I believe but it's definitely interesting. Does anyone know anything that could refute the theory?
Rob Munnelly
1904. RobMRobM
Wet@1892 - hang in there. Internet groups are your friend when times are difficult. (Keep real friends too, of course.)

Re Elaida - we'll definitely see her in the next book (ugh).

Re Tam as gay - don't think so. He doesn't dress well enough. (ducks)

Re Asmo, all signs pointed to Graendel as the one who rummaged around dead Chosen's castles looking for AOL equipment and Asmo had the bad luck to walk into her short-term hiding place, causing him to be BFed. I still think she did it - but how will that be disclosed to the reading public? PERHAPS VIA A TALK WITH DEMANDRED....

Food spoilage was happening before Rand got the TP. I do like the fisher king point that Rand is one with the land, so that spoilage got much worse once he got the TP. Query whether things will get better post Dragonmount or whether they are going to have to re-discover the song or starve to death.

"3. [Brandon] also said that the series’ ending puts certain threads in perspective. For example, Morgase, my least favorite character, apparently turns out to be less annoying than she appears...." Remember that she was MoA for pretty much all of KoD. We need to think about what Elayne will give her as a mission once she gets back to Camelyn - maybe she'll work with Aludra to get the dragons built.

R
James Jones
1905. jamesedjones
1884 joebobrich
Did anybody else find it just a tad sappy that "LUV" is the solution to Rand's breakdown/meltdown, deeper underlying problems? Not bad sappy, but just a bit eh.
YES!!! Thank you! The whole, "maybe we get a second chance." revelation did not offer any awesomeness for me.

Of course, I might not be the support that you were looking for, but, in all seriousness, the ending seemed trite.
Cheryl
1906. First Selector
@1904:
Didn't mean to imply that Rand channeling the TP started the spoilage. But I also think that the spoilage got worse after he did, especially in his vicinity.

Re: Asmo. I've also been in the Graendal did it camp. If she did, then maybe Moridin knows and will give the reveal?

I'm excited for the Elayne/Morgase reunion and curious to see what Morgase's role will be afterward.
Wilson Grooms
1907. alreadymadwithspoilage
First Selector @1906
You are probably right about the spoilage getting worse after Rand used the TP. The spoilage has always been characterized as being accelerated by the Dark One's touch. I can see it getting worse near someone who has used the Dark One's own brand of Power.
Maiane Bakroeva
1908. Isilel
Freelancer @1820:

What if Latra Posae were a darkfriend, and her efforts guaranteed failure at Shayol Ghul?

I thought that this idea was pretty much debunked by TGS revelation that LTT's Sealing required OP to touch the DO? I.e. that it was only Latra's opposition that prevented the tainting of saidar too?

IMHO, it is much more poignant and powerful if _both_ plans of dealing with the DO had significant drawbacks and both sides had very valid reasons for their extreme stances.

It was nice to finally see LTT's compeletly reasonable rationale for opposing and delaying the production of the two mega sa'angreal, which rendered their use to build a barrier around the Bore impossible.

However, LTT's all-consuming guilt, so great that Rand struggled so long and hard against his AoL memories (which, as the _Dragon Reborn_ he is supposed to have, IMHO), makes much more sense if yes, he was partly responsible.
If what happened wasn't the result of betrayal or something completely unpredictable, but if LTT knew all along that there was a weakness in his plan, but chose to believe that it wouldn't matter.

Anyway, I have a crazy theory that Latra went to the Finns in the end and deposited the Ring of Tamyrlin and her knowledge with them and that that's why Moiraine had to go to Finnland.

Wetlandernw:

TGS revelations about the effects of even removed Compulsion on an individual completely rehabilitated the post-Rahvin Morgase to me. She was struggling with post-Compulsion trauma and the healing process was additionally hindered by her being ignorant about what really happened. I still don't see what role she is supposed to play, though, because those who dislike her would disbelieve this explanation and even those sympathetic to her couldn't be sure whether she is wholly restored.
I wish somebody would have bothered to tell Bryne and Gawyn, though.

The point of CoT? I could imagine there being a point to some stuff there, but not to the thing entire.

But then, after TGS I am more convinced than ever that books 7-11 should have been compressed into 2 great volumes, 3 at most.
What was the point of the Bowl of Winds again, if "the land is one with the Dragon", eh?
Leslie Annis
1909. Lannis
Free @ 1888: "impersonate eloquence"... nice turn of phrase. :)

And you're welcome! Your question hunt sent me to Dragonmount to find you the rest of the Storm Leader Reports for weeding your list. And thank you for letting us help with your questions! I don't get a chance to go to a reading (hopefully Toronto will be a stop on the next tour?!), but I'm really appreciative of your generosity in letting us give you some input! :)

Oooh, I like RobM's question @ 1889: re: the source Morgase's familiarity with the Two Rivers accent. Though I'm wondering if that'll get a RAFO... hmm...



@ Many... re: Cadsuane's lesson to Rand. I myself think this is fulfilled now... I mean, it was classic ass-backwards fulfillment of viewing... especially since Cads knew she had a task to do! So she screwed it up, plot tension builds, and BAM! It was what was supposed to happen all along, and reader breathes sigh of relief... The typical disclaimer should be applied, of course: my track record is sorely lacking... in no way do I assume I'm right... ;)
James Jones
1910. jamesedjones
1908 Isilel
What was the point of the Bowl of Winds again, if "the land is one with the Dragon", eh?
I think this goes back to Thom's musings on the raker in the beginning/middle of tSR. He suggested that he, and the other non-dragon protagonists, would be lucky if history got their names right. I'm sure RJ enjoyed writing the 4th age bits in the beginnings and endings, just for the chance to tweak the reader with how the records get smudged, and mistranslated, and generally politically censored for the next few generations.

Edit: That goes for prophecy and foretelling, too. But that's almost never bungled. :D
Carl Jennings
1911. atergoboy
For anyone interested...

http://ebookstore.sony.com/wheel-of-time/?j=22164492&e=cdjenning@cableone.net&l=16138702_HTML&u=252406744&mid=83886&jb=0
F Shelley
1912. FSS
@1908 - What was the point of the Bowl of Winds again, if "the land is one with the Dragon", eh?

Well,when I first brought it up I was only talking about the food spoilage issue. It has been stated time and again by Team Light and the Forsaken that the Dark One was influencing the weather. In fact, one of the Forsaken thinks to himself that the DO has "strained" to touch the world so much...
Alex Johns
1913. almuric
Well, I finally finished the book. Had to hurry up with CoT and KoD to get there, but I managed it. Overall, I liked it. There were a few spots that jarred, but overall I didn't have problems with most of the prose. Good job, Brandon. People have already picked over the parts I had a problem with and I don't need to repeat them.

Verin was awesome. Just had to say that. Although, wouldn't keeping a list of Black Ajah people be tantamount to possibly betraying them? How can you be sure it won't fall into the wrong hands? Why wouldn't someone have been able to write the list down somewhere and just 'accidentally' leave it behind at some point? Easy way to get rid of someone you don't like.

I think Tuon was able to resist Rand's Ta'veren commands because the Pattern made her. The Seanchan needed to attack the WT (as per Dreaming), Elaida needed to be removed (as per kharma, you loony fruitcake), Siuan/Gareth needed to save each other (as per Min), Egwene needed to be a bad-ass (BadAssInACan). It wasn't time yet for him to kneel before the throne, which btw, he wouldn't have been doing anyway since she wasn't empress yet.

Hinderstap? What was the point of that sequence? How did that advance the plot in any way? The little scene in the previous book where the trader got sucked down with the ghost town was enough. Why did we need the Twilight Zone episode? It seems like padding. (And I'm attuned to that right now, having to slog through WH and CoT recently. Ugh.)

That's how Masema dies? Really? He's been a major pain-in-the-ass for this long and Faile offs him in a short bit in the Prologue? He doesn't even get a chapter? Something seems off there. Did Jordan just not write that part and Brandon didn't feel like doing it? As much as I hated the whole Faile rescue plot-line, I wouldn't have minded Mat's Hinderstap chapters being replaced with Masema gets his come-uppance.

On Rand's use of the True Power? I think it was a by-product of the crossed Balefire streams. I don't think he was given explicit permission. I think Moridin has permission to use it and I don't think he needs to ask every time he wants to do something with it. I think it was all that was left to Rand at that point and he would never have noticed it if he had access to the One Power. I think that will have ramifications for Moridin. Maybe enough to where he's no longer Nae'blis and Demandred gets his moment of awesome. (I can feel it coming. Can't you?)

I hope to see a Graendal PoV where we see what she does just before being balefired. I think it's obvious that she must have been as there's been no indication that you can remove Compulsion remotely.

That's all for now. Maybe more later.
Matthew Smith
1914. blocksmith
Forkroot@1853 and RobmRobm@1856

I swear I could tell you didn't pronounce your r's by your typing. This coming from someone living for 34 years in Mass. By the way, not sure if you were aware, but Vermonters call us "turkey herders" in addition to the more offensive use of Mass and holes.

Kimball's is great. So is Brown's (near or on the NH border) for good seafood outside of Boston...and you can BYOB there. I have very fond memories of living in the area including escorting the "militia" from Hudson/Stow through one of my project sites in April, 1995.

And my two cents on Asmodean...I am still in the Graendal camp until I learn otherwise.

Jamsedjones@1905

Early on and after my first read, I had similar feelings and compared it to the Grinch scene on top of mountain. However, in re-reading the last two chapters, there is nuance and detail that demonstrates progression from rage to concern to understanding. In addition, and while it may seem trite, we have been being led to this point since provided with the information that he needs to learn laughter and tears again.
R B
1915. MasterAlThor
So the Rand's new sword is Justice thing was starting to hack me off. I needed to go and find out just exactly why so many people think this.

First let me say that I do not believe that it is Justice.

What sword do I think it is....Turak's sword.

Hawkwings sword was described as shining like a mirror. Rand's new sword is described as being centuries old.

So theres an argument for and against. But what seals it for me right now is this.

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the pPattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself..."


TGH Chpt 47

He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin's memories-but Rand's own.


TGS Chpt 1

Now if Lews Therin and Artur Hawkwing hang out, where ever the HotH hand out at, don't you think that Lews Therin would have recognized the sword?

That Rand did and LT didn't should mean that it could be Turak sword. Of course we didn't exactly get a LT thought on the sword so who knows if he did or didn't recognize it. Plus we don't know how old Turak sword is.

Also, I don't believe that anyone is actually thinking this (if you are you might need to stand in the corner) but I don't see AH dropping his sword for someone to find it later after the battle at Falme. Or during for that matter.

Final point. Are not kings buried with their swords? Don't we get some info about Hawkwings last days? As the most important man on the planet at the time, would he not be buried with his most famous weapon?

Just some thoughts, have at them.
Sean Banawnie
1916. Seanie
Isi@1908:
Some interesting points. I'll have to chew on the Finnland crazy theory. I hadn't seen that 1 before , not crazy, I think. No concrete evidence but an interesting theory , nonetheless. I have always felt some sympathy for Morgase, this just gives me backup. I'm looking forward to everyone learning just what she has been through. And survived .
Barry T
1917. blindillusion
MAT@1915

I don't know if the sword is Justice, but I don't think it's Turak's sword either. In A Halo Of Darkness Rand thinks about facing Turak and killing him. But he doesn't mention, or even think to himself, that he now has the sword Turak used during that duel.

But then again, there's this line:
Rand reached down, touching the sword he wore at his waist. ... For more reasons than one, it made him think of the last time he had been in Falme.

Perhaps one of those other reasons would be that it's the sword of the man he killed.

But then again, just before that Rand is thinking about an ambush and goes for the sword, not the ter'angreal hanging from his saddle. Suggests he thinks the sword will help if caught in an ambush.

So, it's always possible that one of those other reasons is that it's Justice. Blah...until BrS tells us, by way of Rand, who knows.

sigh, but I'm sick at the moment and my eyes are hurting, so I might of misread that section of A Halo of Darkness just now.
Guillaume Bergeron
1918. Nightbaron
MasterAlThor @1915

I don't think the theory is that Rand found Hawking's sword which he would have lost at Falme, I think what he saw at Falme was the TAR version of that sword, that Artur probably carries around between lives, and that Rand found the actual real centuries-old sword.

ie: Horn Hawkwing's sword shone like mirror, but after centuries of decay, it now doesn't.
Wilson Grooms
1919. alreadymadwithcadsmess
Somebody pointed out that Cadsuane had to teach Rand to acknowledge his failings (or something to that effect, it was a rather long post). Unfortunately, this is a lesson no AS, not even one of Cads' stature, is in any position to teach. And yeah.. she blew it. She was working off of the collective blindspot of the White Tower and Far Madding. Two of the most female dominated societies in the Westlands. Tam was right, she was a bully, plain and simple. Even she could not refute it. And when Rand exiled her she also realized she could only push and prod at something so much until it snapped back into her face.

As for Logain, Tarna, etc, does anybody realize Logain, and the respective embassies from the rebel AS and the Red Ajah are all incommunicado? Something tells me something big is happening at the White Tower and they're all embroiled in it.

Also, Tam is in Tear, what about the army (and nobles) he was travelling with?

And yeah.. this book is chock full of wonderful quotables:
"What would you do if I could give you a hundred men who could channel?"
"Madmen?"
"No, most of them are stable."
Bill Reamy
1920. BillinHI
M A T @1915: I believe it is mentioned that Rand's new sword had been buried for hundreds of years and just unearthed now. That makes it impossible for it to be Turak's sword. BTW, I'm firmly in the "Justice" camp as Hawkwing as a recalled Hero of the Horn would not be carrying a real sword at Falme.
Tess Laird
1921. thewindrose
Also MasterAlThor, the blade Rand has now was found buried around the area they are in now - Arad Doman. I don't think Turak's sword would have been buried.
This whole incident could just be a set up of how Rand and LTT are merging beyond 'oh that was my thought, or his', because as we know at the ending, they are now one and the same.

If Asmo was dreaming and in TAR - there would have been a body left over. (All though a curious thought is if you are dreaming yourself into TAR and then got balefired what would happen to your body that is asleep in the real world? We have seen whole sections of the Andoran place balefired in TAR, but they are still there in real life. I think if you get balefired in TAR you are dead, but you would still have a dead body in the real world.)
And we don't have any dead Asmo's laying around.

So I have been kicking around a thought at 13D about Pevara and the 5 other Reds that went to the Black Tower: Brandon said something interesting about Pevara According to a Storm Leader report, he said he is considering publishing a novella about her/the "holes" at some point on his Blog. - Dominic
My idea was this:
I think we are going to see the 13/13 trick with the Reds that went to the Black Tower to bond some Asha'man. In 'Remember the Old Saying' Pevara, Tarna, Desala, Jezrail, Javindhra and Melare travel to the Black Tower to bond up to 4 asha'man each(looking at the Greens for example.) Taim regards them contemputuosly as they have an audience with him - "I didn't ask your names," Taim cut in coldly. "I asked why you came here."(...) "You say you want to bond Warders? Reds?"(...)"Very Well."
Pevara blinked in spite of herself. "'Very well'?" She must have misunderstood him. He could not have been convinced so easily.
Taim's eyes seemed to bore into her head. He spread his hands, and it was a mocking gesture. "what would you have me say? Fair is fair? Equal shares? Accept 'very well' and ask who will let you bond them. Besides, you must remember the old saying. Let the lord of chaos rule." The chamber erupted with men's laughter.Pevara had never heard any saying like that. The laughter made the hair on the back of her neck try to stand.

On a personal note - my kids may have access to the one power. I have some how been convinced to let both of them have friends sleep over on Saturday. I get very fuzzy on the topic when it comes up, and can only think of ordering pizza and smiling. Sound like compulsion?
T C
1922. Freelancer
First, blindillusion holds a comment # that I very much wanted for a new history puzzle.


Isilel@1908
I thought that this idea was pretty much debunked by TGS revelation that LTT's Sealing required OP to touch the DO? I.e. that it was only Latra's opposition that prevented the tainting of saidar too?

Thank you. That is the statement I have been waiting for. Now the theory:

Elayne, with the help of Setalle Anan (aka Martine Janata) will design a ter'angreal which uses both saidar and saidin, and creates an energy which is neither, but which opposes the True Power. She will need Rand's help to test it out, but what else good is her affinity for items of Power going to do? Anyway, Lews Therin said that "something had to touch him", but in this case it will be the result of a weave which cannot be tainted, because it will itself buffer both halves of the One Power. That will hold back the DO while the Bore is sealed properly.

And, I'm strongly of the opinion that the Tower of Ghenjei was not around until long after the Breaking. When Mat defines the timeframe for the memories he has gained, it does not go back anywhwere like that far in the past. So Latra Posae didn't go there with the ring of Tamyrlin.


Lannis@1909

I'm afraid that if that question gets RAFO'd, It'll provide evidence supporting the Tam/Morgase romance theory.

I do not believe that Min's vision regarding Cadsuane teaching a lesson has been fulfilled. First off, that Rand has found laughter again is not Cadsuane's doing. Second, he's not unhappy about his Dragonmount experience. Min said that Cadsuane would teach him an important lesson, him and all the Asha'man, and they wouldn't like it one bit.


jej@1905

Trite? I'm so sorry...


MasterAlThor@1915

It would be very hard for Turak's sword to be unearthed by scholars digging at a statue site, since he's been dead less than two years. The Seanchan are all about ceremony, I'm sure that all of the High Lord's belongings were cared for appropriately.


amw@1919

Did you mean something big is happening at the Black Tower? Yep, something big. Opposing sets of Aes Sedai going there to bond Asha'man, opposing factions of male channelers. How twisted if Tower Aes Sedai bond with Logain-faction Asha'man, and Rebel Aes Sedai bond with Taim-faction Asha'man?
Joseph Blaidd
1923. SteelBlaidd
RE Fre @1888
to joebobrich@1884

Not sappy at all, in my opinion. Real. The great majority of emotional distresses are related to a perceived lack of love, or loss of love, or guilt over having hurt a loved one. No, the veins of gold matter so much more than most credit them for.
As for the True Power, given that it's use is exclusively by permission of the Dark One, it's hard to come to any other conclusion.


From the 13th chapter of the Epistle to the Coritnians

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the btruth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


Where charity is the translation of the Greek Agape or 'the highest form of love'.



Oh I brought REED's Ginger Brew to share with the rest of the DD' s in the bunker(note you'll want to cut the first glass with water thi first time you try it). I also brought coconut pecon pepermint and Andies mint chocolate chip cokies.
T C
1924. Freelancer
Thanks SteelBlaidd, that was good. I understand you didn't wish to post the entire chapter, but the conclusion is essential:
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Agape isn't necessarily the "highest" form of love, but it is the selfless, unconditional form. Fileos, or brotherly love, and Eros, or romantic love, each have a self-interested component. Oh, ok, so Agape is the highest, and I'll hush.

RE: Reed's. Yep, nice and flavorful, and even sharper than Vernor's.
Bouke de Boer
1926. Bouke
Re: the sword. The notion that Rand's new sword is Turak's, combined with the statement that it was "dug up" recently at an old site, leads to a small "argh" bubbling up inside me. Those two just don't go together, IMO...
Carolyn Goodwin
1927. metacarolyn
Hi all,

I'm home on maternity leave (which is why I had time to read all 1900some comments over the past few days) and I've got babies on the brain.

kab1@1172 - I don't have any real evidence for this, but I also think that 6-7 months along sounds too far for Elayne's pregnancy. Someone posted a comment recently in which BrS verified that events in ToM will overlap some with events in TGS, so in any case I think she will still be in the 1st or early 2nd trimester when we see her next.

One thing I kept wondering when while reading TGS was this: Why hasn't anyone told Rand that he's going to be a daddy? I know Avi has been avoiding him, but Min certainly could have said something. I'm assuming that she hasn't because it never popped up in Rand's internal dialogue. Wouldn't this be a good thing to mention to a guy who is struggling to find meaning in his life (or in his upcoming death)? Or do they think he is too unstable to handle surprises?

Finally, does anybody think that babies could be in Min's future as well? She can't read her own aura after all, and evidence suggests Rand is plenty fertile. Of course there is a contraceptive tea available, but no word on whether she's drinking it.
Barry T
1928. blindillusion
Darn you Freelancer@1922

~ shakes fist in rough rendition of Rand a la The Death of Adrin~

I'd take a guess and says it's 1917 but sooo much crap happened in that year.

But you do like obscure history, so....

Ugh, I hate being sick. Not gonna look...not gonna look.

edit:

RobMRobM@1904
Re Asmo, all signs pointed to Graendel as the one who rummaged around dead Chosen's castles looking for AOL equipment and Asmo had the bad luck to walk into her short-term hiding place, causing him to be BFed. I still think she did it - but how will that be disclosed to the reading public? PERHAPS VIA A TALK WITH DEMANDRED....


I'm drawing a blank. Graendal has rummaged through the the castles of the dead Forsaken? What signs point to this?
Wilson Grooms
1929. ania hyek
Hey guys i just wanted to ask that whether it is possible to link two mails and one female. I am not sure if it is mentioned any where. If possible it will solve the problem of "3 into one" and that prophecy about callindor "whosoever draws it comes next" or some ting like that by linking rand , narshima and Nyn/Aleyne/ Aviendha /Eg

sorry if repost couldn't go through it all. Ciao
Maiane Bakroeva
1930. Isilel
Freelancer @1922:

The Red Stone doorway ter'angreal that Mat went through certainly dates from the Age of Legends (it was in Rhuidean, after all), so timing of his memories is irrelevant. And IMHO the Tower of Genjei predates the doorways, as they were clearly created for safer interactions with the Finn than the Tower provides.

I dunno, since Rand has regained his equilibrium without Moiraine, IMHO there needs to be some other compelling reason for her to return. Also, the Odin analogy of Mat trading an eye for knowledge would apply.

And the brief mention of Latra in KoD and particularly how it was stressed that it isn't known how or where she died just suggested the ToG to me. She would have been the last to wear the Ring of Tamyrlin too as the last aknowledged leader of AoL AS.

As to Elayne's participation in creation of a shiny new prison, I dunno. IMHO, something else will be involved than ad-hoc creations of clever ter'angreal. Particularly since she only managed to copy/make a couple of simple ones so far and won't be able to reliably channel for some time yet.

Oh, and BTW a potential signing question - how do people learn to weave the opposite half of OP when leading a mixed circle? Do they suddenly see the weaves of the opposite half? Does everybody in a mixed circle see them? Does it take longer to learn the opposite weaves (it should)?
Guillaume Bergeron
1931. Nightbaron
BlindIllusion @1928

Graendal herself mentions rummaging through Sammael's possessions in Illian after his death. Which is how the theory that Asmodean surprised Graendal while she was rummaging through Rahvin's possessions came to be.
T C
1932. Freelancer
blindillusion@1928

Year correct, but it's what happened that's fun.


Isilel@1930

Ok, let's see. There is a window of opportunity for Latra Posea to go into one of the doorways between TSaSG and the Breaking, I give you that. Still doesn't preclude her being dark.
Birgit
1933. birgit
If Demandred is indeed with the Borderlanders armies, then it brings new meaning to the 13 sisters that are with that army. Black Ajah you think? Demandred and Semi are partners so maybe he has one of the domination bands as well.

Do ter'angreal work in Far Madding?

Jules Vern and Tolstoy were born.

Andrew Jackson won the Presidency, by the way I dated one of his decendants.

Asomdean's death.


Seems the problem with resurrecting Asmo is not where he died, but when. The DO couldn't retrieve his soul from our Age.

Although, wouldn't keeping a list of Black Ajah people be tantamount to possibly betraying them? How can you be sure it won't fall into the wrong hands?

Verin's notebooks were in her personal code. If she doesn't leave the book with the key to the code lying around nobody can read it.

How twisted if Tower Aes Sedai bond with Logain-faction Asha'man, and Rebel Aes Sedai bond with Taim-faction Asha'man?

The offer to the SAS was to bond Soldiers and Dedicated, not full Asha'man. Taim's special classes are the only full Asha'man not raised by Rand. Tarna's TAS get permission to ask anybody. That includes his black Asha'man.
Matthew Smith
1934. blocksmith
Masteralthor@1915

In chapter 1, Rand thinks to himself "How odd that they should find this now...and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding".

Do we know who "they" are? Aiel? Seafolk? Domani? Saldeans?

I can't recall if it is explained in more detail somewhere else or if I missed it. My point being the they may help answer the question.
T C
1935. Freelancer
blocksmith@1934

Indeed, an important detail. The sword was unearthed by scholars at an archeological site. But were they the ones who brought it to Rand? And under who's commission are they digging?
T C
1936. Freelancer
On this year, the finest American-made automobile ever designed. Name it.
Cheryl
1937. First Selector
Metacarolyn @1927:
Congratulations! I have a 4 month old. : ) IMO Min won’t get pregnant, at least not before TG. It doesn’t seem to fit with her in my mind. And it seems like it would make her . . . more vulnerable. Sure Elayne can’t channel some of the time but at least she can sometimes. And Elayne didn’t have to go through the 1st trimester ickiness. If Min became pregnant, she’d be kind of weakend for the Last Battle. Of course, Min is a non-channeler surrounded by channelers so I guess you could argue that she doesn’t need to be on her game. On Rand being a dad - I do think he wouldn’t have dealt well with the knowledge with the state he was in.
Barry T
1938. blindillusion
Nightbaron@1931

Ah yes, just went back and re-read. Guess during my re-read for ToM I should stop skimming over the Forsaken parts. But I suppose that could be what Asmodean stumbled over per my post at 1896.

Freelancer@1932

...hmmmmm, fun, huh? I'll look into that.
Maiane Bakroeva
1939. Isilel
Freelancer @1932:

Still doesn't preclude her being dark.

But given that there were very valid reasons for Latra's vehement objection to LTT's plan and that humans even having a chance against the DO in the 3rd Age resulted from this action, why would she be dark?

Not to mention, that she had to have the Wheel's backing to convince so many people to stand up to the strongest ta'veren ever.

IMHO, it is much more powerful if both LTT and Latra were right... and wrong. Maybe if they had come up with a third plan instead, a lot of woe could have been avoided.
Matthew Smith
1940. blocksmith
Freelancer@1935

IMHO, the Domani were too disfunctional at that time to be funding an archeological dig...unless the sword is a DF plot and Graendal was funding it.

Of course, it could have been a local philantrhopic lord funding it but I find that hard to accept giving general chaos and the threat of an invading army.

So...um....not sure if that gets us any closer.
Guillaume Bergeron
1941. Nightbaron
birgit @1933

Considering that Nynaeve's well worked within Far Madding, I would assume that all ter'angreal work there.
Matthew Smith
1942. blocksmith
And now with Miller time (I use that term loosely, you won't catch me drinking anything but a well crafted IPA, Stout, Scotch, or Maker's...yes that makes me a beer/liquor snob) fast approaching, I can look forward to spending on hour or two Monday morning getting caught up on the posts...I'm predicting 2400.

Here's to a great and safe weekend to all.

Pats 31, Colts 20
T C
1943. Freelancer
Isilel,

I totally agree with you. This was all based on the wording of those final paragraphs in TSaSG, coupled with past occasions where we later learn that something was hinted to in a way that would be hard to have foreseen. So the description of two different translations of Shadar Nor, the disclaimer about the innacuracy of direct translations, and the mysterious lack of other history about her, just suddenly seemed like it mattered more than I'd supposed. That's all.
Barry T
1944. blindillusion
Freelancer@1932

J.R.R. Tolkien begins work on The Book of Lost Tales, which would eventually become one of the Greatest Stories Ever Told!!

It's a fun fact from that year.

Free@1936

I'm gonna go with the 1936 Pontiac Business Coupe Street Rod.

Nice.
Leslie Annis
1945. Lannis
Free @ 1922: (1922--first issue of Reader's Digest is published... wow, it's been around a loooong time!) Re: Cadsuane's lesson... Dammit, you're just smashing my ideas left, right and centre! ;)

Truthfully, though, I'd forgotten about the "teach the Asha'man" part...

I obviously need to get my book back from my sister and reread it already... :/
Sam Mickel
1946. Samadai
re: People complaining about Egwenes' awesomeness Making the AS lesser people.

Egwene in no way was better than those AS. She had already come to the conclusion that the tower was more important than anything. It is and was something that they needed to remember. It was simply that their pride and selfishness had gotten in the way. What she did was to remind them of their responsibilities regarding the Tower. that is what she did, she restored their collective common sense.
T C
1947. Freelancer
On this year, my mother graduated from high school. She had no children yet, and I'm 4th of 5, so there, MasterAlThor.


blindillusion@1944

Cool rod, but nothing like as designed in 1936, and the original Pontiac was very far from the finest car of it's time, much less ever. That V8 is circa 1967 with 1980's trim pieces.


Lannis@1945

Nice one on Reader's Digest, I didn't have anything in mind for 1922. Just 1917. Of course you have a good historical year there. September 2, the Japanese surrender to Allied forces aboard the USS Missouri, ending the Pacific conflict of WWII.
Kev Hamm
1948. cavynmaicl
Wow, we're closing in on 2,000 comments, and I haven't read anything beyond 1,300 or so. I know what I'm doing this weekend! Keep 'em coming!
Leslie Annis
1949. Lannis
@ Free: BAHA! Totally looking at your post numbers, not mine! Yes, 1945 was an excellent year! And how could I not notice that with Remembrance Day only two days past?! :)
Leslie Annis
1950. Lannis
Um, and we'll get to 2000, for sure, if we keep playing the year game... 1950: my mom was born. I miss that pretty lady. :)
Tricia Irish
1951. Tektonica
Oh dear. Another 75 or so entries behind. I need a clone to keep up and still have a life!

Jojobrich@1884 and Wetlandernw@1885
We all know that Team Rand is the help sent by the Creator! They are the good guys sent to save the world...Mat, Perrin, Rand (and his memories), the SG's, The Aes Sedai (the good ones), the Heros of the Horn, the various Armys, etc.

Although the DO communicates to his minions on a regular basis, the Creator seems to be more trusting that the Good People with Free Will that he created will figure out what to do.

Faith seems to run both ways.

Hopefully, Rand is now in a better position to figure out what to do with help from Min perhaps.....and Mat to get the Seanchan on the same page..... the Aes Sedai and Ashamen to provide the firepower, etc.

I'm not a big deist either. That's why i like the idea that it's "Up to Us" to save ourselves, given the moral fiber to do the right thing and to care enough about each other. And that's my sermon for today...haha....didn't mean to get preachy.

RobM@ 1887
Good luck with the 12 year old! My daughter became an alien at 14 and remained on her own planet until 20. I am now "cool" again, so it does get better! As my mother-in-law wisely said, "You have to love them the most when they are the most unlovable." Wise woman. (Must've been speaking from experience!)

Freelancer@1888
you're right, "knowledgeable" is the correct word, but I'd like to be "smarter" too. And thanks for the confirm on Galad.
T C
1952. Freelancer
Did everyone take a nap or something? ;-)

ania hyek@1929

Was looking back and saw your comment. The answer is no, there cannot be more males in a circle than females. In fact, if there is more than one male, there must be at least two more females. Females may number no more than 13 for each male, and the maximum circle is of 72 channelers. Them's the rules, according to the Guide. (Lily of the Valley already noted these things @1797)
Bobby Stubbs
1953. Valan
Hmmm, finally got up to 1000 comments and now they're up to 2000, hmmm...

My Synopsis (to echo and dissent with others):

Rand: Carried my favorite storyline of the book. Yes, it was uncool to see my 2nd favorite character become more or less evil. But the writing of his character was unparalled IMO, and the story was riveting. I loved (and hated) his dispatch of Graendal (not due to a lack of a Grandal POV, I can chalk that up to balefire eliminating her POV (yes I realize that doesn't make sense due to previous erased-by-balefire POV's, I just don't care :) )). It also contained my favorite quote of the book - "You make her think you're sitting down at the table to play her game. Then you punch her in the face as hard as you can."

The Min-Semiraghe scene was one of the best scenes in the entire series, and the not-so-bigass ending was my 4th favorite ending of the series(behind books 2,6 and 9). I got my boy back, yo!

Mat: I totally agree this is where the difference between Sanderson and Jordan was most noticeable. Mat was not quite the same Mat, but I can see why he was not quite the same and I got over it quickly. Lightsong is up there with my all time favorite characters, right under Mat, in fact, which might explain my opinion, however.

"Bloody ashes" did get under my skin a bit though. The "zombie" scene was 1 - not a zombie scene - and 2 - really cool.

Perrin: Absolutely perfect, it would have been weird for Sanderson to immediately give his cool back to him. Now, however, he's set up to get it back (finally).

Faile: Thank you, thank you, thank you. God I hated Masema.

Egwene: Made of Awesome. As far as the dumbing down of the Aes Sedai, AFAIC Jordan started that in LoC. We know Aes Sedai are selfish pricks who (for the most part) can't see past their noses.

Fortuona: Lady Luck? The name's too perfect to hate. C'mon guys. You know Mat's still gonna call her Tuon anyway. Another spot on character.

Ituralde: Awesomesauce.

Aviendha: Loved it. She's my favorite SG.

Moridin: A baddy, but still a badass. That foreshadowing scene of Rand's integration was too cool. And flashbacks to the Eye of the World are always awesome.

Semiraghe: Glad she's dead. Evil bitch.

Gawyn: See? He's not that bad, just confused. I'm glad Egwene spurned him though, it was... warranted.

Suian and Bryne: Yeah, about time.

And no freakin Elayne!!

LTT Real or not: Rand is LTT. The second personality is not real. It can't be real because Rand was putting all the stuff he didn't want in his personality into the other, which included parts of himself (emotions) and past memories, while retaining some of LTT's memories for himself - namely - Forsaken details. So no, the personality is a construct and does not represent an accurate LTT, IMHO.

Thank you Brandon, Harriet and Team Light!

Bring on the Towers of Midnight!!
T C
1954. Freelancer
To expand on the above...

If the Aes Sedai want to link 30 sisters, it takes 3 male channelers being in the circle. With those same 30 sisters, there could be up to 28 men.
Sam Mickel
1955. Samadai
Free,

But they are not all linked together, correct?
Barry T
1956. blindillusion
Why yes Free@1952, that was a wonderful nap and thanks for asking.

And no cars looked like that in '36? And I just KNEW a Pontiac couldn't be described as a fine automobile. Just please tell me it wasn't a Ford.
Well, I've always been more of a 60's car guy myself. I'll have my Impala one of these days...sigh.

What are we talking about right now?

In 1956 the Wizard of Oz played on TV for the first time. My Dad says he just loved watching it.
T C
1957. Freelancer
No. Not a Ford. Ford couldn't touch this with a 10' pole.





And we all know what was built in 1957.

Henry Loose
1958. schrodinger
another 13 and 13... the 13th storm leader report came in on the 13th of november. cue creepy music... and its a friday... duh duh duuunnnnn.
Barry T
1959. blindillusion
Freelancer@1957

Crap, I forgot all about Duesenburg. Like I said, never was much of a 30's car guy. 'Bout all I know about cars from that era is a result of reading Clive Cussler books back in the day.

1958 ~ This is created by Gerald Holtom.



Hmm, missed it by two mintues. Oh well, still a cool fact.

schrodinger@1958

Friday the 13 = Mini-Holiday. Festivities to begin soon.
T C
1960. Freelancer
Two VERY HUGE events in history during this year.
Helen Peters
1961. Helen
1896. blindillusion
Evidence against balefire - RJ said how and where he died would stop the DO resurrecting him, we know using BF as the 'how' would stop the ressurection so if he was BFed then 'where' wasn't important, but RJ said....

1933. birgit
Do ter'angreal work in Far Madding?

Well, one does, the one that detects chanelling. Is that the same one as the one which blocks sadin/saidar, or does that make 2?

Now it's 5 past 2 in the morning, I'm going to bed now I've caught up with all the posts. Night all
Barry T
1962. blindillusion
Free@1960:

I'm going to go with JFK getting elected and the Civil Rights Act of 1960.
Henry Loose
1963. schrodinger
blind@1962

you probably got it... I was thinking cold war stuff... way off.
Lily
1964. Lily of the Valley
Samadai @ 1955

Yeah, they'd all be linked together. It'd be one giant circle. Women can only link up to 13, then they need men to help expand the circle after that.

"Not only can men not link by themselves, but outside of a circle of two [one man one woman] there must always be two more women then there are men. The strongest circle is one of 72 linked channelers. After that the circle cannot get any larger. [Per the BBoBA] So, technically, there can be 66 women and 6 men [giving the significant 666 to some readers], but the strongest circle would actually be 35 men and 37 women. :>"

My post at 1797, so no one has to slog back through them all and risk their computer refusing to load anymore. [Mine's done that more than once...]

Also: 1963 was the year my Momma was born. =D Only 27 more to go before I can try to snag my own birth year!
Ron Garrison
1965. Man-0-Manetheran
WHEW! Without internet access for two days. I began reading where I left off on Tuesday, and that was 4 hours ago! Some notes:

Biggest argument against Laras (or any servant) being Mesaana is that they do actual work. I'm thinking a Foresaken is probably not that great of a cook. I'm sure they have been cooked for and waited upon for millennia - tho' we don't know the specific accommodations in the Bore.

Elaida has got to be on the Top 20 list, no matter how much we hate her. She was giving grief to Siuan and Moiraine way back when they were Accepted!

Verin's letter to Rand: She tells him of Latra Posae and exactly what went wrong between the AS and LTT and how to get it right, now that he has a second chance.

Where's the Creator? He's the Creator. Once the world was created, he was done. Otherwise, he would be known as the Meddler, the Fiddlearounder, the Whywontheleaveusalone guy. Anne Rice got a great handle on this character in Memnoch, the Devil.
T C
1966. Freelancer
Time to head home. You guys aren't even close on 1960.

To quote MasterAlThor during his Looney Tunes zone somewhere up above; "Ain't I a stinker?"
Alice A
1967. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @ 1960 - Well, at least one of them was pretty small at the time - only 8.5 lb. :) Sure glad you nabbed the number, since I didn't get here in time.

In other news, now that I've finally caught up for today, here are my notes. (Cheers for Notepad, so I can write as I read!!)

Bouke @ 1899 - Not seeing how you get Justice out of WoTFAQ 3.06 at all. The only sword it talks about is Callandor.

RobMRobM @ 1904 (Also Isilel @ 1908) - Please note that on the quotations, I was copying directly from someone's post on Dragonmount. (My comments on their comments were included, bracketed, in green.) The comment about "Morgase, my least favorite character" was his/her opinion, not mine. I personally liked her a lot, which is partly why I found her storyline (from Gaebril on) so painful. I like the idea of her teaming up with Aludra to get the dragons built. What a project manager, eh?

almuric @ 1913 - Verin's list falling into the wrong hands was never an issue - it was all in a code that involved lots of drawings of plants and such. No one could have figured it out until she wrote the key, which she then hid with the book & bookmark ter'angreal, and promptly gave to Egwene in "the hour of her death".

@various - re: the sword. I'm pretty sure it's not Turak's sword, since it was unearthed (IIRC, in the process of digging up an old statue) only recently after being buried for centuries. It could be Hawkwing's, but if it is I hope there's a REALLY good reason for it. Otherwise I find it an irritating solution. IMHO, the best evidence for Justice is the lack of specific mention of any other significant swords. I still think it would be cooler for it to be a sword Rand remembered using in one of those lives he saw during the Portal Stone trip to Falme.

Freelancer, you could always ask if the sword backstory was originally going to be in TGS and got moved to ToM. BTW, I loved your 1936 car, though I never would have gotten it in the game. Gorgeous!

Valan @ 1953 - Perrin: Absolutely perfect, it would have been weird for Sanderson to immediately give his cool back to him. Now, however, he's set up to get it back (finally). Hear, hear!! Well said. Also re: Fortuona. Yup. But I still disagree on LTT's reality. Just don't buy the "construct" theory. However, it's clear (from Brandon's signing comments) that we will never have that clarified for us, so we can all just think what we like.
Wilson Grooms
1969. Robyn Calden
Speculations- Some ideas on fulfilling visions..

On Mat-the whole losing an eye idea. I was having trouble picturing mat intentionally losing an eye- besides its pretty gross. I was imagining Min's viewing (yeah, previously posted way way back) of bloody mat, Thom's poker in the fire, and I think this must happen via him playing with Aludra's fireworks- and causing an unintended explosion that blinds him. He's bloody, refuses a healing... or maybe there is no Aes Sedi around, or maybe they eye is too damaged to be healed

On the Rand-beggar scene... it seems to me that it would be much more cool if instead of going back to being the Dragon Reborn and dealing with Cad, his generals, the maidens, etc., after his epiphany, that he continues with a little sole searching/intelligence gathering/Taverning posing as a beggar wandering/traveling around Randland. In this pose he might easily end up bowing before ForTuona, or getting a chance to chat with Egwene. Maybe he can check out his buddies...see Lan... oh the possibliities are endless without all that entourage

Well just my thoughts. Really, I can't get through all these posts and catch up, so I hope this hasn't been said already. Nobody did up till #1300, so I hope I'm safe.

Thanks for the forum. My husband is TWO books behind, so I can't keep track of the spoilers and discuss with him.
Rob Munnelly
1971. RobMRobM
By the way, Lily, you made me feel old as I am older than your Momma. Please tell me you're still in high school....
Rob Munnelly
1972. RobMRobM
1960 - Oakland Raiders formed as part of initial AFL. Second one. I win again Lews Therin....
Alice A
1973. Wetlandernw
Man-0-Manetheran @ 1968, RobMRobM @ 1972 - Nope. Keep trying. (Leastways, I'm pretty sure I know the two he's thinking. I could be wrong. It could happen.)
Wilson Grooms
1974. WolfBrotherInTampa
OK, so I read TGS during my business trip to Philly this week, and finished this evening on the plane ride home. EXCEEDINGLY good book, and a great read. I am a huge fan of BS (actually picked up Mistborn when I first heard he was going to finish the series and have been hooked ever since). So, like everyone else here are my thoughts...

"HOLY CRAP" moments:
-- Practically the entire Egwene arc, though I think she has a bit too much awesomeness right now (unless she is ALSO taveren and nobody knows it). EVERYBODY screws up, but we barely see it with her - like she can do no wrong right now
-- Rand BFing the fort...
-- The scene in Hinderstrap. Yeah, I know - most folks hated it. I thought it was pretty cool, actually... the Pattern having a hitch in it that would cause that... WOW, TG is CLOSE!!!
-- Of course, Verin Sedai at the end. What a shining example of self-sacrifice there. Verin has always been on the fringe of my awesome characters list, but she is now firmly ensconced.

"OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOkay" moments:
-- About half of Rand's arc. His "I have to be harder than cuendillar" nonsense was kind of over the top for me. A *good* ruler has to care about his/her people, even the common ones (as someone says in the book even - maybe Gawyn?). For him to act how he did was bizarre... damned insanity!
-- Elaida's disappearance. This made me cheer, and say out loud "that bitch had it coming"... it was still odd in the way it was presented.
-- Masema's internal thoughts after Faile stabbed him. I assume when you are dying, you may have something like that going on, but still...
-- Perrin's arc. Perrin, my friend, I am disappointed for you. You did NOTHING special in this novel. You kibitzed over wagon wheels, and Faile, and were forcefully kicked out of the dream by Hopper... but nothing else important at all!

*HEAD DESK* moments...
-- The craziness that is Lan riding out to Tarwin's Gap to face down the Trollocs. This has BETTER be addressed in TOM, at least in some form.
-- Characters MIA: Taim, Logain, Elayne/Birgette, Windfinders, etc. WTH?!?!? Where were these folks? What's going on with the BT? What's up in Andor? WHERE THE HELL IS LOGAIN???
-- The Borderlanders hiding *HIDING* in Far Madding? The spend their WHOLE BLOODY existence watching the Border and being warriors, and they HIDE at the eleventh hour? Someone had better snap some sense into these folks, quick!
-- ARGGHHHH!!!! When are we gonna learn who Mesaana and Demandred are posing as??? BAH!!!

New theories for me, after finishing....
-- Callandor will be wielded by Rand and 2 women. The 2 women are up for debate. The main contenders are Avi, Elayne, Nynaeve, Alivia, and Egwene. There are strong cases for each of them, though I am leaning currently towards Nynaeve and Egwene. Can't give a logical explanation right now, but that is what I am thinking.
-- The sealing of the prison will happen with a combination of Callandor and the TP. Can't figure out how just yet, but that is my thought.
-- Min, though not a channeler, will play a HUGE part during the action of TG. She has been tagging along for some time now with her visions... she has a more major role to play coming up.
-- Mat and Thom's 3rd will be Olver. He is small and ugly, but not real noticeable. He adores Mat, and will do as instructed during the rescue. All 4 come out alive, and the *finn are locked away until the 3rd Age comes again.
-- There will be peace with the Seanchan... and Mat will combine their army with the Band to be the field soldiers during TG.
-- Perrin will lose himself to the wolf during TG, but will come back to himself in the end. I have a strong feeling Elyas will play a role in that as well. I also think that group will be the downfall for SH.
-- I think that T'A'R will be a crucial area for the LF to defeat the forces of the DO in TG. If the LF can knock out Mogi and Cyndane before it starts, Egwene and the Wise Ones will provide a distinct advantage in T'A'R.
-- By time TG starts, the only Forsaken left alive will be Moridin.

OK, that's it for me for now. May the Light shine upon you all!

WolfBrotherInTampa
Rob Munnelly
1975. RobMRobM
Invention of the fricken laser beam. I win again Lews Therin....

I know that the 1960 birthday year has to be right, and have trouble not buying the birth of the Raiders too.
James Jones
1976. jamesedjones
Post

Edit: Just wanted to claim my year. :P

Edit Edit: And the 200 mark for the US, although that's less important depending on your region.

Edit Edit Edit: And the year they made "Star Wars" Woo Hoo! sorry for the fast typing getting away from that one. lol

Edit Edit Edit Edit: The year Stephen R Donaldson finished "Lord Foul's Bane" to begin the Unbeliver chronicles.
R B
1978. MasterAlThor
AAAAAAAAgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

1972 was supposed to be mine.....

Dammit I didn't show up fast enough.

I knew I felt a disturbance in the Force.

RobMRobM

Got them both I see
R B
1979. MasterAlThor
jej

Star Wars premired in 1977
Noneo Yourbusiness
1980. Longtimefan
@ 1919 Alreadymadwithcadsmess

I am going to make two assumptions here,

One, that this is not the original alreadymadwith because I have my doubts that a m w would not read a post that was too long if the intent was to respond to it nor forget to mark which post or who wrote it.

Two, I think it may be in reference to a post I wrote.



This is what was written:

"Somebody pointed out that Cadsuane had to teach Rand to acknowledge his failings (or something to that effect, it was a rather long post). Unfortunately, this is a lesson no AS, not even one of Cads' stature, is in any position to teach."

This is the part of the post I think it is commenting upon.

@1804 "Could Cadsuane teach Rand how to admit when he is wrong (do not see how that would translate to the Ashaman except by example) not by her own actions by by his actions in banishing her which may have to be reversed because of the information in the letter that Verin may have left for him?"

It goes on to say that the lesson is not her teaching him directly but being the point he has to learn from. (sort of, I will admit it gets rambly).

I realize it is a whole century and a half behind us now so I do not think many will read it but I just wanted to address the comment at 1919 if that comment was about my comment at 1804.

I have been busy so that may account for the large lapses of time between these posts.
Rob Munnelly
1981. RobMRobM
Tor was broken for 15 minutes. Posts went up to mid hundreds and that's it. Just like Brown Ajah moving.
Lily
1982. Lily of the Valley
RobMRobM:

:) I just graduated, actually. On my way to COLLEGE BABY! WHOOO! *fist pump*

Also: Holy cow, I just realized that I'm as old as Egwene. I suddenly feel inadequate. .-.;
Rob Munnelly
1983. RobMRobM
Congrats, Lily. Where you going to go?

My kids are still little, 12 and 10, so I have a while to go.
Barry T
1984. blindillusion
Well, if you can't beat them, join them. Not really a philosophy I practice, but I guess I can follow the bouncing ball just this once. So, I'll do a little add on to my post at 1896.

Alright, so people want to talk about Asmodean being pulled into T'A'R as a way to meet Mr Jordan's statement about it not being only what killed Asmodean, but also where he was killed that led to the DO being unable to spin him back into the Pattern. OK, let's dish.

Now, some of you have wondered about a gateway to T'A'R' being behind the door Asmodean walked through as the means to his arrival in the World of Dreams. Well, I'll raise this question: What if that entire scene is in T'A'R'? Let's look at the evidence for that question:

Tucking his harp under his arm, Asmodean drifted away from Mat and Aviendha.


Now, I've managed many physical movements in my life, ie walking, running, I can stay balanced on a skateboard for long periods of time and I can walk on my hands, but I have never physically drifted without the aid of a four-wheeled conveyance, namely my friends 1997 Nissan Skyline. AWESOME.

But I have drifted off to sleep without noticing it before. In fact, as an insomniac, this happens more than I'd like, usually in situations where it doesn't pay to fall asleep.

So, here's my hypothesis:

1~Asmodean's killer notices him asleep in the courtyard.
2~Said killer pulls him into T'A'R' to play with him, or perhaps hoping to gather information.
3~Asmodean wakes up in T'A'R' and walks away from the courtyard. (Sure, there's evidence that Mat and Aviendha were actually in the courtyard with him at the time, but with all the other things possible in that world, who's to say they couldn't be constructs. And after all, Mat and Aviendha talking...really?)
4~Asmodean wanders around for awhile and is killed once the killer realizes there is no information to be gathered. By balefire no less, which meets both criteria for Mr Jordan's double whammy.
~~(This also meets Mr Jordan's statement that opportunity trumps motive in this murder investigation. What better opportunity than having someone firmly in your grasp.)

One other piece of evidence, if evidence it is, would be the balefired walls Asmodean notices along his search for that ever elusive pantry. I suppose this evidence depends on four things:

1~ Is it the balefire Rahvin threw at Rand?
2~ Is it the balefire Rand threw at Rahvin?
3~ Do the effects of balefire go away once the person who weaved the balefire is balefired?
4~ How long do the effects of balefire last in T'A'R'?

(For the location of this balefire in the text, look a few pages into The Threads Burn. As you can see, the balefire used by both Rand and Rahvin travel different paths, as evidenced by Rand's having punched through the wall.)

~ Now, I still don't know if Graendal is the killer. For one thing, are we ever given any evidence that she is this good at controlling T'A'R'? The only two people we know of who could pull this kind of hocus pocus are Lanfear and Moghedien. But then, as is evidenced here practitioners of hocus pocus come in threes.

OK, back to the Friday the 13 festivities.

Wish I could of gotten 1979 or 1981. The former for something really, really freaking funny and the latter for more personal reasons.

edit: One to add statement about the years. One to add an "l".
Guillaume Bergeron
1985. Nightbaron
Okay, RobMRobM's 1981 post reminded me of yet another loony theory I have.

What if, around the end of Towers of Midnight, most main characters meet back up in Caemlyn (since it seems like a lot of the arcs seem focused on heading there), and then just as the Brown Ajah and Novice quarters were switched, the Caemlyn Palace gets switched with Moridin's Palace in the Blight.

Boom, Tarmon Gai'don begins.
Thomas Keith
1986. insectoid
Birth year snatch! :D

I actually went through the entire day without realizing it was the 13th!
Noneo Yourbusiness
1987. Longtimefan
@1984 blindillusion,

I doubt the balefire could be either of the beams in the exchange between Rand and Rahivn.

It was Rand's balefire taking Rahvin out of the pattern that allowed Asmodean to exist again after having been killed in the approach to Caemlyn.

If he was killed with balefire it would have to be from someone who was around after Rand balefired Rahvin.
Alice A
1988. Wetlandernw
Someone shoot holes in this:

In order to seal the Bore, and do so without tainting the True Source, they have to keep their weaves (saidin and saidar) from touching the DO, right? Rand and Nynaeve once linked and together used saidar to create a conduit, through which the taint on saidin was siphoned off and fed into Shadar Logoth, but without saidin (or the taint) and saidar actually touching. So my new theory (I haven't decided yet whether it's looney or not) is that Rand and two women, wielding Callandor, weaving saidin and saidar together, will create a similar effect in which saidin and saidar are used to press the True Power (the essence of the DO) against the prison, holding the DO in place while never touching either. Logain and/or Egwene, using linked AS and Asha'man, can then place a new, perfect seal on the Bore, making full use of the True Source (the essence of the Creator?), men and women working together, to remake the prison as it was meant to be.

I hope that made sense. I think I'll post it and come back in half an hour to see a) whether it still makes sense and b) what holes have been poked. Anyone need a fork?

And you still haven't figured out the other half of 1960.
Henry Loose
1989. schrodinger
No! how could we have missed this: 1948: Robert Jordan's birth year
T C
1990. Freelancer
RobMRobM@1970

Actually, I was thinking of Wetlandernw for the one. (though true, I was born that year as well)

The other is closely related to the 1917 issue, that nobody tackled. Albert Einstein expanded upon the theory of spontaneous photon emission, to include stimulated emission, giving birth the the concept of Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation.

Thanks, Al, I have a job because of you!


RobMRobM@1975

Yes and no. You have the issue correct, though not the specific event. The laser was invented several years earlier, according to patent law. 1960 witnessed the first sustained beam of collimated light via stimulated emission. ::wink::

I'm flattered that you remember I'm a Raider fan, but that would only have been placed just barely above JFK if I were making a 1960 list, and that would be pretty low.


MasterAlThor@1979

I wanted that post. Year I first dated my wife (shhh, 30th anniversary of our first date is in a couple of weeks, and she doesn't know what I've been planning). And btw, correct on Star Wars, I went the second night.


Wetlandernw@1988

Actually, RobMRobM gets full credit. He got one half @1970, the other @1975.
Wilson Grooms
1991. mad dog 311
Now that I have read this book twice I hear these words from Queen/David Bowie while reading or thinking of Veins of Gold.

Turned away from it all like a blind man
Sat on a fence but it don't work
Keep coming up with love but it's so slashed and torn
Why, why, why?
Love

Insanity laughs under pressure, we're cracking
Can't we give ourselves one more chance?
Why can't we give love that one more chance?
Why can't we give love, give love, give love, give love, give love, give love, give love, give love?
'Cos love's such an old fashioned word
And love dares you to care for the people on the edge of the night
And love dares you to change our way of caring about ourselves
This is our last dance

This is ourselves under pressure, under pressure, pressure

Anybody with me?
Henry Loose
1992. schrodinger
i claim the year of my birth.

edit: damn you mad dog... that would have been my post number... oh well... whoosah... whoosah.

edit edit: actually, damn you slow isp... it seemed to flare just as I needed to claim 1991. Its back now.
Barry T
1993. blindillusion
Longtimefan@1987

I know. I was talking about the walls that were balefired by Rand and Rahvin when Rand first starts chasing Rahvin through the palace before they enter T'A'R'.

I'm saying Asmodean was balefired in T'A'R' after that event.

But hmm, Rand does call himself death in To Caemlyn. Maybe he killed Asmodean. As we see in tGS, a la Veins of Gold, Rand goes away for awhile. Perhaps this is one of the first times before the continuous "Rand/LTT" combo in the later novels. After all, while in T'A'R' Rand almost loses himself to LTT as a result of Rahvin's trying to...fade him out of the Pattern?

Of course, people are going to HATE that comment because it implies LTT is a symptom of Rand's insanity....

~~Hmm, I'm going to come back to this Rand Did It Theory later. If I can gather my thoughts on it...and make it work...I'll write it up and put it under the appropriate section of tFoH re-read as this section is a novel in and of itself. But this theory...interests me.~~
James Jones
1994. jamesedjones
1979 MAT

But it was made in 1976. That's when Lucas came up with the final script. Kinda hard to believe. I mean, we're watching the Harry Potter kids head for college while we wait for the next two to finish filming, and they're supposedly working miracles by putting it together this fast, in our time. Huh.

Edit: Of course, that's rationalization. RobMRobM beat me to the 1977 post. *shrug*
Alice A
1995. Wetlandernw
A couple of things from the latest Storm Leader report, regarding things that have been discussed here:

Q: How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

A: We’ve heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief – many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the King was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.

Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.

Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.

Freelancer: Rats. I thought I'd finally gotten one. I assumed you were referring to the events of September 17th and 25th. ;) Important events for some of us, anyway.
Sam Mickel
1996. Samadai
Wetlandernw@1988

I like your idea it sounds plausible to me. I was kind of going off the idea that Rand manipulates Moridin using the True power and Narishma and 2 women use Callandor to seal the bore.
James Jones
1997. jamesedjones
If anyone can find the actual text from the BBoBA that lists the restrictions on the men and women involved in a circle, I would appreciate it. Going by the conversation Rand and Asmodean have in the beginning of tFoH, it is strongly implied that one woman can link two men. Asmodean twice suggested it, once for Lanfear and the second for Egwene. Neither took the idea of Lanfear seriously, and Rand shot down the idea of Egwene. But it left me convinced that one woman can link two men.
T C
1998. Freelancer
Folks, I'm pretty certain that Narishma has done his part already, as far as that prophecy is concerned:
"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

Narishma drew it out, Narishma followed Rand as a wielder of Callandor, at Shadar Logoth.


Wetlandernw@1995

Yes, the event of the 25th was half of that one, the first operational laser was the other. Of course, I'm happy to share half with you.
Barry T
1999. blindillusion
Wetlandernw@1988

Grabs fork

1~Your theory still ends up with a Seal...for the most part.
2~There's no part where Rand's blood stains the rocks of Shayol Ghul.
3~It just seems too...complicated. I guess it just seems too many people are involved.
4~I do like the part of your theory where the True Power is used against the Dark One.
5~I sometimes wonder if our heroes are going to have to sacrifice the ability to channel to make the Dark One's prison completely whole again. After all, eventually the ability has to go away...at least for a time. The Wheel has to spin around to us at some point.
6~The loss of the ability to channel would basically take out the Seanchan's need for slaves, thus making them more tolerable to some areas of the Westland.
7~This would also make cannons/firearms an extremely dangerous weapon since there would no longer be a balance to them.
8~Can saidin and saidar be considered the essence of the Creator? We're told they're the powers that spin the Wheel. If there is a direct power from the Creator, wouldn't it be called something else, thus making 4 Powers?
9~We've already seen the conduit used once. Would Mr Jordan rehash something that big and make it less by having it be the way the Light wins?
10~I also like the part of your theory where men/women work together, but I think it's going to involve something else. Perhaps they have to work together to sacrifice the ability after Rand works his mojo on the Dark One's prison.

Woo-Hoo ~ Got my Graduation Year. Party Like It's 1999 anyone?
T C
2000. Freelancer
2k, and we haven't broken the Int3rwebz.


Ok, I was randomly wandering among the 3-digit comment numbers, and came across a tagline from MasterAlThor@991 that just screamed for attention.
As an aside I was just informed that no one is hot except my wife. I guess this means I won't becoming to the bunker later.

Seriously? You needed to be informed of that? You're fortunate that the informing wasn't punctuated with an iron skillet. Most married men are already quite clear on this fact.

That is, not that no one is hot except your wife, but that. . . oh, you know what I mean.
Barry T
2002. blindillusion
I don't know Free. I still can't ctrl F certain numbers, especially those in the 1800s range.

edit: Hmm, might be Explorer.

edit: edit: The film The Count of Monte Cristo came out in 2002. Worth a mention simply because it's an alright film, though it completely screwed up my favorite book of all time.

Long live Edmond Dantès, perhaps the greatest fictional character ever written.
T C
2003. Freelancer
Hmm. I've got three browsers open (Chrome, Opera, Exploder), and can search in the 1800s fine.

20th anniversary year for me.
Lindy Brown
2004. lbrown
Finally caught up with all the posts. For awhile there I thought I never would. I tried to read a bit every night but always found myself behind. Yay!

I wanted to snag my birth year but I was a little too late. It's 1980.

But 2004 was actually the year that I read most of the WOT series for the first time. I actually read the first book in late 2003 and I don't know when exactly I picked up the 2nd one but I think it was a couple months later. Then a little while later I read the 3rd book and from there on out I was hooked. As soon as I finished one book I had to immediately get and read the next one. Good times!
Ilya Surdin
2005. Surdin
blindillusion @1999.5
I've feared since around TDR that it's going to happen. I believe it might be, but I really don't want it to happen. Many fantasy themes come around to loss of magic in the end of the series, and I think it takes a lot of what makes these worlds special out of it.
Rob Munnelly
2006. RobMRobM
"Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it."

Ways to defeat the Oath rod? WTF? Avoid channeling spirit into it? Have ter-greal like Mat's medallion on you? In both cases, the problems is that others can see the weaves/impact on weaves or you'll have to create an illusion that a weave was done when not. Could Mesaana use the True Power block the rod - is that weave visible if done? Other ideas?

R
Lindy Brown
2007. lbrown
@ 1002. Amalisa
From Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 21, "A Mark":
Startled, Alviarin found herself with her begging hands stretched up toward a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green. A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years. She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters, though no Chosen she had met showed any sign of agelessness, but she could not match that face to any name. And she realized something else, as well. That face was afraid. Hiding it, but afraid.

Nowhere in all of the foregoing (including the parts outside of the quotes) indicated that Mesaana changed her appearance in any way. Alviarin knew she should have gone face down on the floor but was unable to do so she would have seen if there had been a change and, considering the intricacy of her internal monologue through this passage and afterward, I think there would have been some mention of it.





No, what I'm saying is that Mesaana didn't change her look in this passage. She was her normal self with no illusion. Well, she started out with her normal shadowy illusion that she usually used when appearing to Alviaron. But when SH appeared, that all vanished since SH suppressed her ability to channel. What Alviaron sees now is the real woman, what she really looks like.

To elaborate on this....

It occured to me that the reason that Alviaron can't place Mesaana but she looks "tantalizingly familiar" could also be because of the absence of the ageless look. If Mesaana is posing as a sister, she has to have the ageless look. But in the passage above she probably doesn't and so looks slightly different. Look at Siuan and Leane after they were stilled and lost this. They looked a tiny bit like their former selves but usually people couldn't recognize them.

Of course that brings up the question, "Is Mesaana's ageless look real (i.e. caused by her swearing on the oath rod) or is it fake (i.e. her using illusion)?

It doesn't seem feasible that the ageless look is caused by the former because it takes years to develop that look after being sworn on the OR and now that Mesaana apparently doesn't have it, will she have to reswear on the oath rod again to regain it? This line of thought causes all kinds of problems.

So, it has to be the latter. The ageless look is illusion. Which brings us back to what I said before. Mesaana is using illusion to change her appearance when appearing as a sister in the tower. Of course, this theory presupposes that Mesaana is a sister (which I firmly believe).
Lindy Brown
2008. lbrown
@ 1041. Wolfmage

Nicely said and I understand what you are saying. It does make sense that way. I did believe in the "LTT is real" theory before our own Leigh voiced her opinion about his in the re-read posts. But after thinking about it I really came to believe the "construct theory".

I guess the one thing that cinched it for me that the construct theory is the right one is that Rand and LTT are the same person, same soul. How could LTT be real in Rand's head if that's true? They are the same person. LTT is Rand, Rand is LTT. There can't be a separate entity in Rand's head that is LTT.

But I agree with you about LTT just vanishing. If LTT was just a construct it doesn't seem realistic that LTT would just vanish now that Rand accepts himself as LTT. That may be just a mistake on RJ/BrS's part.
Lindy Brown
2009. lbrown
Sorry for all these posts. I wanted to catch up with stuff I wanted to respond to.

@1093. blocksmith
Actually, now that I say this, I can't recall a scene with PF following the cleansing of saidin. There must have been one, right?

No, I don't think there was.



@1172. kab1
According the timeline Elayne got pregnant the night of Feb 17th and KoD ends at the end of April. I'm not sure how much time has passed in TGS, is it really 4-5 months?! WOW!

No, I don't think so. I don't think tGS was longer than a month, but can't be sure till we see the timeline updated. I could be wrong.
Helen Peters
2010. Helen
lbrown @ 2007
I agree about Mesaana's disguise, that it's only the ageless look. Remember Avi commenting about whatsherface in the stone, he that got stilled

Mad dog @1991
I'm with you

Blindillusion @ various
I accept your tar for where he died, but still think BF is an easy cop out, and will be disappointed if it was that. Now Rand as the killer, or maybe LTT in Rand's head, hmmmm....


Forgot to say earlier, Mesaana could easily swear she does not serve the shadow on the oath rod, her thoughts... 'Serve, me serve? I don't serve anyone'. However that doesn't explain how she could get round it.


Edit to add: Re Elayne and her pregnancy, if she's this far gone, Melaine must be getting ready to drop.
Rob Munnelly
2011. RobMRobM
@2009. No need to be sorry. Bring em on. (Why stop now?). Rob

P.s. I seem to recall one of Lazarus Long maxims being "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." Anyone name the author and work?
Scott Sherris
2012. ssherris
I now firmly believe that Katerine is Mesaana. I'm disappointed, Leigh, to see she's not even mentioned in your Mesaana FAQ (http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.2_mesaana.html).

Here are the points for her being Foresaken:
* She is Black Ajah
* She has not been in the tower long - in fact she was an Accepted when Rand was born.
* She was paired with Black Sheriam in the search for Rand after his birth
* She was involved in "boxing" Rand
* She was the one who coordinated Colavaere's ascension to the throne
* She was able to escape from Aiel
* She took control of the camp at Dorlan
* She was one of the only sisters who could tell what Egwene was doing (making cuendillar) and captured her
* She can travel. Even though it is widely assumed that the Tower sisters learned how, she is the only one actually seen doing it.
* She took over for Silviana in the quest to break Egwene, and strongly implied that she could do things to her that Silviana couldn't.

I think the clues point to her as a mastermind pulling strings in the white tower, and the clues relating to Colavaere and travelling are the strongest indicators against her. Not to mention the fact that she's taken such a prominent role in book 12!
F Shelley
2013. FSS
@ssherris @21012

Some of your points work against you, or are neutral:

She is Black Ajah
- so are 200 others

She has not been in the tower long - in fact she was an Accepted when Rand was born.
- and the Forsaken closest to the Pattern and freed were freed during the events TEOTW, when Rand was 18 or so.

She was one of the only sisters who could tell what Egwene was doing (making cuendillar) and captured her
- They felt her channeling.

She took over for Silviana in the quest to break Egwene, and strongly implied that she could do things to her that Silviana couldn't.
- Yes, but for maximum chaos, she wanted Egwene to last as long as possible to give the rebels hope and the tower to remain broken


Important event this year: none; the world ended in 2012 because the Mayans couldn't be bothered to extend their calendar any further.
F Shelley
2014. FSS
@1995

Q: How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

A: We’ve heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief – many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the King was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.


Woot!!!!!!! I nailed it! And I nailed it first (way back at post 165).


Wooot!
Scott Sherris
2015. ssherris
@FSS,
I don't think the fact that she's one of hundreds of blacks works against her. She's become more prominent and in my mind that because Jordan/Sanderson is setting her up for a fall. Who cares if some random sister turns out to be Mesaans? It would be anticlimactic.

Regarding your last point, we learned through her conversation w/ Sheriam that Mesaana is disappointed in the choice of Egwene b/c she wasn't working out as expected. That happens at exactly the same time as Egwene is released into Katerine's custody in her new capacity as Mistress of Novices.
R B
2016. MasterAlThor
Ok, so you guys all snag important years to me.
1972,1977,1993,1995,1999,2003,2004,2007,2011

That's a lot of years to be hoggin for one person, but alas.

If you want to guess go ahead. But know that they are all personal. I'll give some hints.

1972- A beginning. There are neither endings or beginnings, but it was a beginning.

1977- See 2000. Another beginning.

1993- It starts first in Jan and then in May. Long story. I was a baaaaaadddddd boy.

1995- World Changing event that brought me here

1999- See why Free wanted 1979

2003- See why Free @ 2003. Mine just started.

2004- First of two

2007- Second of two

This should be easy.

I just noticed that Free and Wetlander were born in 1960. Wow that makes you guys Greybeards. *dives for bunker*

Freelancer @2000
My friend not everyone is as blessed as you haven been married 30+ years. I haven't even hit 10 years yet. So I'm still wet behind the ears.

lbrown @2008
LTT as a construct cannot work. Here's why. Anyone who has a pshichotic break cant just will himself to be better by accepting who he is. That would be cheap and disrespectful to us the reader.

They have the same soul. That is not up for arguement. They are two different people fighting for control. He just needed to intergrate himself so that LTT could go back to just being a memory or hanging out at the HotH cafe.


Edit: I forgot 2011.

Hopefully the 2 things that happend at 1993 will have an ending here. And a beginning too.
Cheryl
2017. First Selector
@1997:
From BBoBA - “The number of men in a circle is limited only by the fact that with the exception of the linking of one man and one woman or of two men and one woman (and, of course, two men and two women), there must always be at least one more woman in the circle than the number of men.”

@2009: I think longer than a month passed in TGS. Don’t we have people thinking that several weeks have passed multiple times in the book? Maybe I’m misremembering; definitely possible.

@2012: I always assumed that Mesaana would be a non-Black sister. Plus, we get Katerine’s pov back in LOC and I don’t think her thoughts make sense as Mesaana.
Nicholas Forrester
2018. Roy007
I had a thought while reading the book and I keep forgetting to post it.

Elayne acts 11 kinds of heroically stupid in fights because Min saw that she would give birth to healthy babies and therefore not only must she survive every fight but she will do so in good health.

Problems with that interpretation:

1 She is assuming that the babies Min saw are the ones she is currently pregnant with. She could easily lose them by fighting in battle while pregnant and then get pregnant again. ~Marginal possibility included only to give more interpretations.

2 We know that Min only has visions of the future where the Pattern exists. If the Pattern ceases to exist her vision become false and never get fulfilled. So with Elayne being "visioned" into having babies in the intact Pattern her not having babies and the Pattern being intact are mutually exclusive! Thus if Elayne ever screws up and dies or loses her babies the Pattern ceases to exist!

How would that happen you ask? Well Rand is a keystone in the final battle and if he finds out his lover was not only pregnant with his children but is now dead I am pretty sure that would cause him to snap and for the Dark One to win and destroy the Pattern.

So right now Elayne is definitely one of my least favorite characters because she is constantly flirting with the end of reality so she can be The Hero.
Lindy Brown
2019. lbrown
@ 2011. RobMRobM

Thanks!

@ 2012. ssherris
Yes, I can see where you're coming from. It seems that Mesaana would take an active role with what is going on with Egwene. But does Katerine have blue eyes? I seem to recall Mesaana having blond hair, too, but I don't know if that's true. Katerine is dark haired.

@ 2014. FSS
Congratulations!

@2017. First Selector
@2009: I think longer than a month passed in TGS. Don’t we have people thinking that several weeks have passed multiple times in the book?

Well, it's possible. I'm itching to map out the chronology myself just to be sure.
Tricia Irish
2020. Tektonica
Freelancer@1990
L.A.S.E.R. Is light acting as a particle there or a wave? So focused, must be particle? Clue me in, I'm really trying to get this stuff. Is it related to Balefire?

Maddog@1991

Love the lyrics....perfect theme song for WOT or at least Book 12.
Wilson Grooms
2021. alreadymadwithelayne
Roy007 @2018
The other problem is that while Min may have viewed the babies as being born healthy, it is an entirely different matter for them to be born free. Elayne could just as easily give birth to healthy babies in captivity. Giving the enemy not one, not two, but three hostages.
Ed Rafferty
2022. BigBoy57
For some reason I can't believe that Graendal is really gone - it was just too easy - after all, she was being set up as the sneakiest, cleverest, most wary - blah, blah, blah ... of all the FS - even Moridin gave her compliments on the deal (or wait - was that just ironic foreshadowing?) .. nevermind, onwards.

What do we need if Graendal was to survive?

We need a woman channeler to have used compulsion on Ramshalan and then to have been BF'd out of the pattern by TDR.

Now, which FS had the habit of going through fallen FS property again?

If Graendal had gone through Semi's belongings in Ebou Dar she just might have picked up a certain blonde-ringleted BA bad girl (she being in the near vicinity) and after un-doing what Moggy did - voila !! - one patsy to take her place when big bad Rand came calling.

Too much?? Ah well - my looney theory for the day.

RobM @ 2011 - Robert Heinlein - "Time Enough For Love" ?
Wilson Grooms
2023. AndrewB
Is the 13/13 turning mechanism an established Randland fact. I ask this because IIRC, characters who said or implied that the process wroks are Black Ajah members (who can all lie). We, the reader, first receive confirmation that such a process can occur when Sheriam tells Eg the channelers can be turned (after she goes through her 2nd ring).

The second mention is by one of the Black Ajah when the Supergirls are caught in Tear.

Is it possible that the 13/13 trick is a lie promulgated by the Black Ajah?

On another matter, anybody want to guess what we WOT lifers have overlooked somewhere between books 4-6. I would love to hear some guesses as I cannot think of anything.

Other than Rand as LTT and Birgette (sp?), does anyone think that any Heroes of the Horn have been reborn during the current WOT timeline? If so, do we care to guess if these characters have appeared on screen yet? (Please no Oliver/ GC discussion. This has been discussed ad nauseum.)

I beleive that at least one of the Aes Sedai with the borderlands (and probably at least 3) are Black and are working under Demandrad's direct supervision. I think this is more likely than that the majority of these sisters (if not all) are followers of Cads. Comments?

Thank you for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Eva Casillas
2024. EvaLou
Ok, so, I can't seem to catch up on all the comments from the beginning (I'm up to about 400), so I'm just gonna jump in.

The theory about Rand and the Tinkers' song got me thinking about something from KOD. Remember when Avi realizes that she can read angreal? Here's the quote:

A stone carving the size of her hand...was for growing something. Not plants. It made her think of holes, only they were not exactly holes. And she did not believe anyone had to channel to make it work. Only sing the right song!


Any ideas if this object is related to the Tinker song? I can't figure out what would "grow" something "not exactly holes." But I think it will definitely come up again in the story.
Noneo Yourbusiness
2025. Longtimefan
@2024 I believe the "holes" that can be grown are the Ways. When I read that passage I had thought that she found an object that would allow for new ways to be built now that the taint is off Sadin.

It may not need direct channeling, only singing (Ogier have some songs and a Talent in Singing) but it may be similar to when the Bowl of the Winds was used where only Saidar was being actively channeled but Sadin entered the weave to complete the attempt to change the weather.

If the singing activates the angreal it may pull Sadin from the pattern and use it to "grow" the beginning of a Way tunnel. The trick would be anchoring the Way and leading it to grow to a second point at a determined location.

It seems like a reasonable gift to give the Ogier when the men who could channel knew they would go mad so they would want to not be directly involved in making the Ways.
Alice A
2026. Wetlandernw
blindillusion @ 1999 - responses (though you have to realize I have no major attachment to this theory; it's definitely still in the test phase.)

1 - Okay, so instead of a seal, they remake the prison whole and perfect while the DO is held as described.
2 - Yeah, blood on the rocks must happen. Easy enough, though, considering that he's got a couple of never-healing wounds in his side; they can break open and spill lots of blood during the wrestling match.
3 - Too many people... I always felt that it would be appropriate in the context of WoT to have the re-imprisonment be a group effort, where a lot of people MUST AND DO communicate effectively in order to work.
5 - End of channelling? No idea, but I sure hope not. My preference would be that as "mundane" technology increases, the need for the Power would gradually fade out. Better yet, leave it's disappearance for another Age. There are plenty of Ages on the Wheel, after all; no need for it to only last parts of two.
8 - "essence of the Creator" - I have no idea if this is anywhere near true. There's no evidence for it anywhere, that I know of; it just seems logical from my perspective. We've been told that the True Source really is more powerful, especially in the long run, than the True Power; therefore, it seems reasonable that two strong channelers, male and female, working together, would be significantly stronger than someone using the TP (as would be appropriate for the essence of the Creator). Also, if saidin and saidar are what drive the Wheel, it makes even more sense (to me) that they are the power of the Creator. I think it depends on your theology.
9 - Conduit was already used... That's exactly why I think it might be used again. Why come up with something that big and cool, and not make it important in an even bigger and cooler way later? I think it's very much something Mr. Jordan would have done. How would the cleansing of saidin be made any "less" by making it the precursor to the ultimate Cleansing?

In any case, it's been made abundantly clear that the key to winning is going to be men and women working together, and that I'll stand on.

Rob @ 2006 - Hadn't thought of the use of TP - IIRC you can't see the weaves of the TP unless you're the one using it. Not sure where I got that idea from, though; multiple hints, I think. It might still be as simple as "as long as she believed it to be true" or unswearing later. He was VERY careful not to say, wasn't he?

alreadymad@various - even though we'd all miss the various addenda, I'd like to see you log in. Then I'd know the comments were really yours as opposed to someone who liked your idea a little too much. *sigh* Can't have it both ways, can we? ;)

EvaLou @ 2024 - I always assumed that angreal had something to do with growing the Ways, though I've never gone back and looked up what we know about that process. Since it involved the Ogier, singing seems logical. JMO.

MasterAlThor - I do NOT have a beard!!!!
Alice A
2027. Wetlandernw
Hah - I'm going to get into the year-grab just once. God willing, this will be the year of my 40th wedding anniversary. :)

Edit to add:

EvaLou - welcome!! By all means just jump in. It will take you weeks to catch up on the comments, so don't feel obligated. If you want to be sure you're not repeating something, or that your question hasn't been asked and answered multiple times, you can search for a key word, but I wouldn't worry too hard about it. In any case, the one you just asked hasn't even been mentioned on this thread, to the best of my knowledge. (For what it's worth, though, the search can be worth it sometimes if it's been discussed a lot, because you get to read the whole back-and-forth business, instead of just one or two answers that you're likely to get on something that's been thoroughly beaten on.)
Eva Casillas
2028. EvaLou
Longtimefan @ 2025 Of course! The Ways makes perfect sense. Maybe they will be able to grow new Ways before the last battle as a way to move troops quickly without using the TS? Maybe that's why Team Jordan was emphasizing Perrin's trouble with moving so many people with an Ashaman who was too tired and/or weak?
Eva Casillas
2029. EvaLou
Wetlandernw @ 2027 Thanks for the welcome and for the tip about searching. I've already read enough about how Matt was "off" to be annoyed with that kind of repetition. :)
Wilson Grooms
2030. AndrewB
@2012

In addition to the other arguments against your theory that Katerine is Mesaana (sp?), TGS led me to believe that Elaida taught Katerine how to channel. In KoD, she was only going to teach the new weaves (including traveling), to her favorites. In TGS, Elaida is said to rely almost exclusively on Katerine (especially since Tarna (sp?) went to the BT). That is why she knew how to travel; not because she is a Forsaken.

As to why Katerine was not mentioned in the FAQ that Leigh used to maintain, please remember that that FAQ is only current as of COT. At that point, the most you could say about her is that she is a fervant Black sister. (As opposed to Sheriam who only joined as a means to advance politically in the White Tower. She never wanted to be around for the Last Battle and have to answer to Forsaken.)

{Back when the FAQ was lasted edited, I was only a lurker and did not provide any theories. Leigh (or anybody else around during those days) will have to confirm whether anybody opined that Katerine was Mesaana.}

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Eva Casillas
2031. EvaLou
I'm on my second read-through now and I was struck by something.

When Perrin is inspecting the wagons, Balwer mentions to him that it's a shame the Shaido Wise Ones were sent away with the Sheanchan, and how Balwer would have liked to question them. The weird part was the mention of the "objects of power" that seem to be fakes. How would Balwer be able to tell that they were fakes if the Wise Ones couldn't tell? Seems really fishy to me, but Perrin didn't give it a second thought.

I'm glad Egwene has been able to knock out a large portion of dark friends surrounding her, but I'm still looking for them around Rand/Mat/Perrin.

PS - I did a search for Balwer first before commenting, so I am confident this has not been discussed. I am now patting myself on the back. :D
Alice A
2032. Wetlandernw
On the Mesaana thing... Brandon's answer to that question leads me to think that instead of focusing on ways to get around the Oaths, we should think of ways to circumvent the Oath Rod itself. If this is true, I have (so far) come up with four possibilities. Feel free to throw darts (once I'm out of the way).

1) There is a weave of one of the other elements that she could invert (so as not to be visible to others) which would negate the effect of channeling Spirit into the Rod.

2) If you are wearing an illusion, the Oath Rod doesn't work on you.

3) Mesaana snagged another Sister and (after using either drugs or Compulsion on her) placed an Illusion of her WT-identity on that Sister and sent her off to swear on the OR in her (M's) place, removing the Illusion and all memory of the event asap.

4) She created an illusion of the weave of Spirit, so everyone only thought she was channeling Spirit into the Rod, then imitated the outward appearance of the effects of re-swearing.

I'm sure there are plenty more, but it's a place to start.

::jumps clear::

THROW!
Barry T
2033. blindillusion
Don't know if this has been mentioned, but what's a way to beat the Oath Rod? Well, where did Mesaana swear her Oaths to the Dark One? (And I'm actually asking because I don't know.) But perhaps, if she swore in Shayol Ghul, those Oaths trump any sworn on a simple ter'angreal.

After all, at the end of the day, that's all it is. A simple ter'angreal created to bind criminals.

(Sure, Semirhage ran to the Shadow to escape a binder, but ehh. I think Semirhage was actually quite the coward with an extreme ego, a tendancy to be sadistic and a reputation many people feared.)

edit: Wetlandernw, writing about the same thing at the same time...minds thinking alike and all that.
Alice A
2034. Wetlandernw
Okay, I'm going to keep a list on my computer of the ways we can come up with to get around the Oath Rod. If/when we find out the truth, we'll be able to see if we came up with the right answer. :)

Just to make sure I don't miss any, please make sure you say something in the first line or so of your post about Oath Rod theories or something like that.
Tricia Irish
2035. Tektonica
Wetlandernw@2032

Mesaana wouldn't have to worry about the oath rod if she was impersonating an accepted or novice! Has that theory been debunked?
Henry Loose
2036. schrodinger
my oath rod theory:

massena believes that she is not a darkfriend or BA. she believes that as one of the Chosen that she is superior to them... thus, swearing on the oath rod that she has never been a darkfriend or BA would not be a lie to her.

i'll have to go back and look at the exact wording that egwene uses to make the sisters re-swear, but i'm pretty sure that it was along the lines of "i'm not a darkfriend or BA" and not along the lines of "I don't support the DO".
Wilson Grooms
2037. alreadymadwithitems
Evalou @2031
I think the suspect "items of power" were the Nar'baha. Sammael used them to fool the Shaido.

Wetlandernw @2032
Or she swore knowing the Oaths did little to stop her anyway, as her MO thus far has involved actions that are well within the Oaths. She may also have the ability to remove the Oaths as a later time using another binding rod or some similar AoL ter'angreal that could negate them. Sammael managed to get his hands on one, no reason to suspect the other Forsaken would be unable to duplicate such feat.
Eva Casillas
2038. EvaLou
alreadymadwithitems @ 2037

I realize what the items were, I just don't understand how Balwer would be able to recognize that they were fakes.
Noneo Yourbusiness
2039. Longtimefan
Messana and the Oath Rod (or Binder in Age of Legends speak)

As a Teacher she may have been privy to knowledge about how the Binder would work. Maybe she had to apply "Binding" to someone in the Age of Legends.

I guess the question would be "has there been any hints in the previous books about how to get around the "binding".

Does it have to do with who is channeling Spirit into the rod? Does it have to be the person swearing? I suspect that if someone is being bound they would not want to channel the Spirit themeselves.

Is it possible to weave a ward around the Oath Rod that would keep a person from touching it thereby keeping it from setting a binding on someone. ie. Invert weave of some kind of shield or ward to place around the rod and place it before swearing and then channel into it as would be required without the rod touching your skin. If the rod requires contact then the binding would not hold since no contact would be made.

Conversely Messana could place a shield around herself (inverted of course) much like the shield Rand and Taim used to keep the rain off in a scene I can only vaguely remember. If the Shield prevents the rod and spirit from passing through (much like the ward against eavesdropping) then someone could swear one hundred oaths on the rod and it would have no effect on them.

So after thinking this out in text I am going to throw my vote down for Messana placing a shield around herself like a glove that while hidden and inverted prevents the Rod and Spirit from passing through to touch her.

There are my two cents from the 21st Century.
Ron Garrison
2040. Man-0-Manetheran
EvaLou at 2031: I read that passage the other night, and I too, was mystified by it. I know what items he is referring to, but what is puzzling is why that little tidbit was dropped on us. What will be the ramifications?

My Oath Rod Theory:
The three oaths all begin “Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow..." If Mesaana feels no obligation to the Light or has any worries about salvation and rebirth, then perhaps the vows are just meaningless to her. Lame, but I have nothing else...
T C
2041. Freelancer
ssherris@2012

Katerine is indeed a "mastermind" of sorts, in a manner of speaking "Elaida-lite". But she cannot be Mesaana, for one very simple reason, one that you enumerated. She was Accepted when Rand was born. The forsaken were not loose.

Also, there is no way a forsaken is going to act as Black Ajah, for multiple reasons. First, because if forced to swear on the Oath Rod that they are not, they will be found out. Second, it limits them. Black Ajah hearts are a communication link that no forsaken would wish to be tied into, when they can do what Mesaana was doing to Alviarin. It would be utterly foolish.


MasterAlThor@2106

1972 - First Breath
1977 - First day of school
1993 - Stint in the greybar hotel? Or joined service? Started medical school?
1995 - First read of TEotW
1999 - Found your honey
2003 - Swore to your honey
2004 - Honey gave you a present. An eating, sleeping, crying, pooping present
2007 - Present @1 got a sibling

I'm not to 30 years of marriage, had 25th last year. 30 years from first date upcoming. Yes, I remember things like that.


First Selector@2017

Good work, thank you.


Roy007@2018

Wow, you worked awfully hard there to give yourself an extra reason to hate Elayne.


Tektonica@2020

Photons possess all of the characteristic behaviors of both wave and particle energy. Just as Infrared wavelengths possess all of the characteristics of both light and heat energy.


EvaLou@2031

One must remember how adept Balwer is. He would have interrogated people involved in the Shaido "traveling" event that Sammael did to them. He created the gateways, but with them believing that the "fool boxes" did it. With sufficient questioning and deduction, Balwer could easily determine what really happened. That and the knowledge that the boxes never behaved again as they were first thought to.


Tektonica@2035

In some people's minds, it has not been debunked. In others it was bunk from the beginning. Brandon wouldn't say anything about thinking of ways to defeat the rod if it meant being someone it wouldn't be used on. But that's the least of the evidence against. Schrodinger@2036 has the essence of it. She doesn't think herself BA, or a darkfriend, because she is superior to either.


amw@2037 (If, that is, that is your real name)

I agree. I suggested before that Mesaana could take the oaths, swear that she's not Black, then using combinations of illusion, mask of mirrors, whatever else, snatch up the Oath Rod and remove the oaths within a day or two.
Eva Casillas
2042. EvaLou
schrodinger @ 2036
massena believes that she is not a darkfriend or BA. she believes that as one of the Chosen that she is superior to them... thus, swearing on the oath rod that she has never been a darkfriend or BA would not be a lie to her.

I'm not sure I can agree that Mesaana does not consider herself a darkfriend. Hmmm.

You also wondered about the exact wording...
Egwene had everyone in the SAS swear that "I am not a Darkfriend" after retaking the oaths. But she did not go through the same ceremony yet with the sisters in the Tower. So I assume this discussion is about what she will do when confronted with this situation?
Henry Loose
2043. schrodinger
@EvaLou 2042

I believe that the forsaken believe that there is a distinct line between simple darkfriend and Chosen, thus, if Massena believes herself to be of the Chosen, then she cannot be a darkfriend, because she is above that. It is like one of those things that the oaths make aes sedai do to avoid telling the truth (a half truth, or omission or some such).
Rob Munnelly
2044. RobMRobM
2022. Of course. Nice job.


2027. Mine too. (I'm only a year younger than you and Free, so that makes some sense.)

2014. Yes you did. We salute you. S A L U T E!!
Richard Fife
2045. R.Fife
@1382: Yes I am.

@WetlanderNW: You had me splitting a seam. What's funnier is how true so much of it is. As to a new, better bunker, I can neither confirm nor deny.

I am going with the "believe it true" for Messy being unfound, and my camp is still going to be Danielle. Considering how the Chosen think of "The Friends of the Dark of this age," it makes it sound like a darkfriend, in their minds, is some fool who helps the shadow, where the Chosen are the Shadow by proxy. Think Auxillarist vs actual Enlisted Military.

I can't say I really have anything else to say, though. I am not completely gone, although I am forced to only skim the comments as opposed to fully read them. It has been a kind of busy-ish past month or so for me ^^; I'll try to be around once the re-read kicks back into gear though. Cause, you know what? I'm never gonna give you up.
Jacy Clark
2046. Amalisa
Remember the questions that Egwene asked Sheriam: 1) Are you Black Ajah? 2) Do you consort with the Forsaken? 3) Do you serve the Dark One?

One of my favorite musicals of all time is "1776". One of my favorite scenes is one of the ones between John and Abigail, where he is enumerating his faults, and she denies them all stoutly, until he points out that he's pigheaded. She chuckles and says, "Oh, well, there you have me, John. You are pigheaded."

"Oh, well, there you have me, Egwene. I do serve the Dark One."

I can imagine that Mesaana would not masquerade as a member of the Black Ajah. So much better to pull the strings from outside. However, the questions of consorting the Forsaken and serving the Dark One... I don't know. Yes, it could be argued - thinly - that she would consider the Forsaken as the Chosen and the Dark One as the Great Lord, but still... She would know who they meant. And knowledge gives the lie.

No, I agree that there has to be a way to defeat the Oath Rod. If Mesaana is still in the Tower (as apparently she is, since Egwene thinks so and Brandon has confirmed it), and if she is masquerading as a Sister, then how?

Longtimefan@2039's idea of a shield of Spirit, inverted, sounds interesting. But if such a solution was possible, it must have been one that she came up with at the last minute, otherwise why not teach it to others in the BA? In failing to share what seems to be a relatively simple remedy, she made it possible for Egwene to strike a devastating blow against the BA. That won't make Shaidar Haran very happy.

Man-o-Manetheran@2040

On the binder given to the Wise Ones, Galina swore "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth..." She considered that the "under the Light" part wasn't necessary but that the Wise Ones expected a "strong oath" so she swore by a Light she no longer believed in. It took...
Ron Garrison
2047. Man-0-Manetheran
Oooo - good catch Amalisa! This is indeed a puzzler.
Noneo Yourbusiness
2048. Longtimefan
@2046 Amalisa

That is a good point. If Messana knew about a type of shield that would prevent the Oath Rod from taking effect would she have shared that information with the BA?

There is the point that the BA have to re-take the oaths to retain the Ageless look so not only would she have to reveal the secret about how to get around the oath rod (not an advantage since bound BA have the extra incentive to obey the Forsaken by oath) but also reveal the secret of how to weave a disguise AND invert the weave. Weave inversion is definitely something the "Aes Seadai" Light or Dark do not know prior to Mogheiden being captured.


During Egwene's purge of the Black Ajah there may not have been time to contact any of the sisters who were fleeing. I also doubt that Messana would care to since they are "beneath" her. She could just contact them later or Travel them in if she needs them. She would use the ability to get around the rod only for herself so she could maintain her position and re-sow her chaos. This will be her undoing as the pride of Forsaken-ness has been kind of the Achilles heel in most cases.

Chances are she will think herself safe and then some one (Egwene probably but hopefully the Black Ajah Hunters just so they get a bit of a big win under their belt for all the trouble they went to) will find an inconsistency or hint and pounce.

Someone will probably die in the capture.

Messana will say something to Egwene along the lines of

"I heard you made Mogheiden your washer woman for months. Do not think you can do the same to me."

Egwene would say "Never thought of it" and kill her on the spot.

Just my two cents.
Jacy Clark
2049. Amalisa
Longtimefan@2048

I'm still waiting for the whole "Moghedien-as-captive" thing to rear its ugly head. I'm remembering Egwene's Dream about the axe falling and if someone gets there in time, she'll be saved. Considering that she had everything well in hand, I don't think it meant her rescue from the Tower. I think that there's still a good bit of trouble, even personal danger, ahead for Eggy.
James Jones
2050. jamesedjones
Around the Oath Rod

Well, we've got two pieces of information that my looney theory hinge upon. First, the SG are unwilling to teach inverted weaves to the rest of the AS since that would have made their secret Chosen cheat a little more vulnerable. And second, Rand taught Nynaeve how to erase a weave by weaving it backwards (how that's different from inverting a weave, I have no idea).

So, my thoughts are that it could be possible to invert a reversed weave of spirit through the oath rod in order to negate the effects. Maybe? Perhaps?

Also, I like Longtimefan's idea for just shielding yourself from the physical rod.

And, thank you to the First Selector at 2017, for finding that quote about linking two men and one woman. Makes the idea of Rand, Moridin, and whoever, a bit more plausible.
Alice A
2051. Wetlandernw
R.Fife - You ARE still here! Missed you. Thanks again for the post on the big opening event. I think we lost the key to the bunker by now... but we're keeping Elaida out, anyway. Need a badger? He's totally useless.

Longtimefan @2048 - Egwene would say "Never thought of it" and kill her on the spot. LOL!! I liked your scenario. :)
Lindy Brown
2052. lbrown
@ 2016. MasterAlThor
1977- See 2000. Another beginning.

2041. Freelancer
MasterAlThor@2106
1977 - First day of school



I think that 1977 is your wife's birth year.
Barry T
2053. blindillusion
~~Just some things I found interesting from the 13th SLR from DM:

~1Q: Do the Seanchan consider the raid on the White Tower a success?

~1A: Yes, they consider it a success, but they’re disappointed that they didn’t get their hands on the Aes Sedai superweapon.
Can you just imagine Elaida spluttering as she denies knowing anything about such a weapon.

~2Q: Will Moiraine be rescued in the next book?

~2A: You’re assuming that Moiraine will be rescued.

~2Q: Will Moiraine’s rescue attempt be in the next book?

~2A: You’re assuming that Thom and Mat will attempt to rescue Moiraine. (I’ll tell you, he’s as bad as an Aes Sedai.)
I put these two togther for the simple reason that I'm going to try damn hard to make it to JordanCon next year (if such a thing is still possible). I believe I can tell already the Mr Sanderson is going to be frustrating.

~3Q: What will be the focus of the next book?

~3A: ....There will be a lot more Mat and Perrin than in this one. I suppose you could say that if there was going to be a rescue attempt, the logic place to put it would be in a book with a lot of Mat.
Especially if he misanswers(?) questions one moment and almost answers them the next. Gah.

~4Q: Will Fain be in the next book?

~4A: ....Now that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed, all of the Mordeth power that remains in the world is in Fain.
This would be the reason I hope Verin's letter to Mat tells him the location of the Horn of Valere and not that she and Sheriam left a link between him and the dagger.

~5Q: In Falme we saw Rand fighting Ishamael and the Heroes of the Horn and the Seanchan were mirroring the progress of the battle. Does this mean that there is something inherently evil about the Seanchan Empire?

~5A: Nobody in WoT is inherently evil, except for Shadowspawn. At the time, the Seanchan were being led by a Darkfriend.
I'm sure this was talked about during the tGH re-read, but it's interesting to get verification of what I thought when I read the book

....Cuendillar can be destroyed using the True Power. There is another way to destroy cuendillar, too.
Hmmmm. Oh, really? Ha! Hawkwing's Justice, dun dun dun!!!

Key:
Red words= My thoughts
.... indicates I removed part of the answer.
Blue words= I'm not being serious.
Alice A
2054. Wetlandernw
Wow. I finally figured out the mental image I've always had of Moridin... I'm seeing Morden from Babylon 5. I just hope the end matches. ;)
Wilson Grooms
2055. stargazer
On defeating the oath rod:

Of course you can say anything at all, so long as you believe it to be true. What if Mesaana can (temporarily) hypnotize herself or otherwise alter her mental state such that she "forgets" that she's a servant of the dark one? This doesn't even necessarily require any Power usage - just regular real-world hypnosis techniques could do the trick (though augmenting that with the power is certainly not out of the question). Likewise, imagine an Aes Sedai with multiple personality disorder, where the different personalities believed different things to be the truth.

I'm not saying that either of these crazy ideas is necessarily actually relevant for Mesaana... I mostly I'm just speculating on other ways to get around the Oaths in general. I agree that "Forsaken are different from Darkfriends" seems like the most likely explanation, apart from Sanderson hinting that there's some other way around the oaths.
Helen Peters
2056. Helen
About Mesaana's identity.

~ She seemed familiar to Alviarin ~ we're assuming that this is becaued it's the same face Alv knows but without the ageless look laid over it. We're assuming that the ageless look is Mesaana's only disguise.
But, in that case we need to look for a very old sister who had been out of the tower long enough that everyone had forgotten what she looked like, but still knew about, because otherwise she would have to disguise herself as someone else, face and ageless look both.
Or, we need to look at someone who was an accepted back at tEotW, that looks sort of similar to Mesaana, that was nondescript, that none of the sisters particulary remembers, that was raised about the time that Mesaana was freed, so that she could just use a 'hastily acquired' ageless look for a disguise.
If either one of those is valid, it would help cut down the list of suspects.
Though if the first is the reason, then it would put a whole new meaning on the tower split. Adelas, Vandene and Cadsuane are all old AS that have been out of the tower for so long that in Cads' case everyone assumes she's dead. If Mesaana is posing as an old sister returning from retirement she would need to manipulate things so any other old sisters are disuaded from coming back to the tower. A + V went to Salidar, Cads to Rand, Romanda to Salidar. Are there any old AS returned to the tower?
Helen Peters
2057. Helen
On getting round the oath rod.

It's a trickle of spirit that binds. Maybe the trickle needs to be a certain amount. If just a hair less of spirit is channeled then it doesn't work. Course, that's only any good if you're the one channeling and being bound. Though it's something they could have figured out in the AoL, the judge or whatever they were called back then was feeling particularly lazy, bound someone with only half the power normally used and they went and re-offended.



You know you're WOT obsessed

~ when you're reading a totally different book, A falls over, B cringes because they weren't close enough to catch them and you think 'why didn't they just channel air to catch them?'

~ when you eat a chocolate chip biscuit/muffin/cookie and pick the chocolate chips out complaining of weevils.
Birgit
2058. birgit
I realize what the items were, I just don't understand how Balwer would be able to recognize that they were fakes.

Sammy called them fool's boxes in the OT. Balwer probably knows the OT and realizes that they must be a joke.

Stilling makes the Agelessness disappear. If you unswear on the Oath Rod, it should also disappear. Since it takes some time after swearing to get the Ageless look, the Black Ajah hunters who unswore the Oaths and then reswore them should look different for a while.
Bill Reamy
2059. BillinHI
Helen @2057: You've got more problems than WoT Obsession if you're picking chocolate chips (the best part) out of your biscuit/muffin/cookie! LOL

birgit @2058: I know that stilling removes the Oaths as well as the ageless look, but do we know that just unswearing the Oaths removes the look? If true, there are a lot of different-looking AS in Tar Valon these days.
Wilson Grooms
2060. NeedMoreBerelain
I greatly enjoyed this book. Thanks to everyone involved in making this happen.

A few random thoughts:

1. Who, what, where is Mesaana? I figured we'd get the reveal after faithfully enduring all the agonizing White Tower chapters in the past few books, but I'm still without a clue on this mystery. (Sorry, but I really loathe the Aes Sedai as a whole, and it's really an arduous task to slog through any of Egwene's scenes. I hate that story arc with a passion and I don't think anything can fix that until we finally get the long-overdue comeuppance that all these so-called Aes Sedai deserve. They are all miserable failures).

2. It looks like either Sorilea or Bair are Darkfriends. Hmmm.

3. Tuon appears to realize that she's in deep shit with Rand now. I wonder if she'll ever know how close she came to being burned out of the Pattern.

4. Speaking of balefire...some have mentioned that the Dark One wants a crazy-ass broken and nihilist Rand to go around Balefiring everything. This seems like a decent evil plan, and could explain why Moridin tells him about the resurrection/balefire stuff. The problem I have is that if this is one of the easy ways for the DO to "win", then why doesn't he just have the Forsaken walking around balefiring entire cities? There must be something more subtle to it.

5. Rand taught random Black Tower guys the balefire weave. That seems very un-good.

6. Why was Perrin in this book? Or any book?

7. First thing that came to mind with the Callandor/three-as-one prophecy was saidin/saidar/true-power. How about a circle with heroes of the light and shadow mixed in?
R B
2061. MasterAlThor
Good morning people. I was reading the post and I see I got some answers to my querries.

Wetlandernw....

Greygeards is just the term my family uses for the age challenged. We call my grandmother that and she laughs.

Freelancer....
You got almost everything right.
1977 and 1993 are incorrect.

lbrown....
Hey that was a very good guess. And you are correct sir/madam.

EvaLou....
Welcome to the party. Please stick around.

Your catch about Belwar made me think that he could possibly be Demandred. No real proof other than we know that he is with an army. Wouldn't that be something.
Wilson Grooms
2062. alreadymadwithreswornoath
BillinHI @2059
Unswearing does remove the ageless look but it has never been described as instantaneous. Hence, by unswearing and then immediately reswearing everybody looks the same as they always have with the ageless look.

MasterAlThor @2061
I don't think it's Balwer. We do know Masema was being manipulated by one of the Forsaken.
The Dragon had appeared to him in the night before the attack. Appeared in glory! A figure of light, glowing in the air in shimmering robes.
And Masema would have followed anything from such an apparition, hence, Demandred's rule over him is secure. The problem with this, of course is that Demandred may not know that Masema's followers were decimated at Malden.
Noneo Yourbusiness
2063. Longtimefan
@ 2060 NeedsMoreBerilan

Hello, it is Sunday and I am bored so here are a few personal answers to the questions posted above.

1. Who, what, where is Mesaana? I figured we'd get the reveal after... the... White Tower chapters.

I agree, it would have been nice to get the Mesaana reveal in the White Tower chapters. Hopefully it will happen in the next book but it may have to wait until the beginning of the third book.

WetlanderNW posted this answer from the current Sanderson signings at @1995

"Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect."

Now this does not confirm or deny the three sisters that were on the list Egwene was reading (Throwing the Danelle theories right under a Grolm) but it makes it seem like they are the three likely candidates.


2. It looks like either Sorilea or Bair are Darkfriends. Hmmm.

Hmmm, Indeed. It may be possible for a Wise One to be a Darkfriend. (Knowing the failure of the past and all that) but I believe the general consensus is that Wise Ones are not so into the Shadow so probably not. (Shocking if it turns out to be one of them)

3. Tuon appears to realize that she's in deep (trouble) with Rand now. I wonder if she'll ever know how close she came to being burned out of the Pattern.

Probably not. Who would ever suspect that a) the Dragon Reborn knew balefire, b) could level whole cities with it and c) your city was at the top of the list? Unless Rand goes through some going clean euphoria where he tells everyone about the things he was going to do but did not in some sort of affirmation seeking behavior.

Rand "Hey Tuon..."

Fortuona "Empress"

Rand "Yeah, that, uh I just wanted to say that I was totally all up in here about to Balefire you off the Pattern and I took a moment to chill out and it's all good now."

Fortuona "What?"

Rand "I said, I was all up in here...."

Fortuona "The Empress does not understand "all up in here."

Alwin "I believe, Mistress, that it is the "New Tongue" which is spoken in the time many wheel turnings from now."

Fortuona "What?"

Alwin (whispers) "Just go with it, it is popular with the new readers."

Fortuona (whispers) "Who? Nevermind." (to Rand) "Why are you here?"

Rand "I just wanted to say it's all good and you're welcome."

Fortuona "Uh, Ok, By the way, now that you are here I think I dropped a bead from this dress. Could you come here and help me find it?"

Rand "No problem Empresscakes."

Rand goes up and kneels before Fortuona to help look for the bead and fulfills the prophecy to "Kneel before the Crystal Throne."



4. Speaking of balefire...some have mentioned that the Dark One wants ... Rand to go around Balefiring everything. This seems like a decent evil plan, and could explain why Moridin tells him about the resurrection/balefire stuff. The problem I have is that if this is one of the easy ways for the DO to "win", then why doesn't he just have the Forsaken walking around balefiring entire cities? There must be something more subtle to it.

I believe this has to do with the Dragon being one with the land. It is more destructive when he balefires something because of his connection to the fabric as Ta'veren and his position as Dragon Reborn.

5. Rand taught random Black Tower guys the balefire weave. That seems very un-good.

I agree.

6. Why was Perrin in this book? Or any book?

It is part of the Trio based story telling used in this series. There are many FAQs and Theory posts on the symbolism and importance of each of the characters. Perrin is important because the Author decided he was and is in the story for the same reason.

7. First thing that came to mind with the Callandor/three-as-one prophecy was saidin/saidar/true-power. How about a circle with heroes of the light and shadow mixed in?

Would these be Redeemed darkfriends or Forced darkfriends?


and @ 2062

"The problem with this, of course is that Demandred may not know that Masema's followers were decimated at Malden."

they were not decimated, they were annihilated.

There are off to sing with the bleeding choir invisible. They, sir, are ex-followers.
Jacy Clark
2064. Amalisa
Longtimefan@2063

#3 - funny stuff!! :D
Wilson Grooms
2065. NeedMoreBerelain
Longtimefan @2063 - Would these be Redeemed darkfriends or Forced darkfriends?

I've had a feeling for the last few books that Moridin might come back to the Light. Maybe just temporarily?

One thing that I'm pretty sure of now after re-reading the Semirhage chapter is that Moridin is the one that allowed Rand to access the True Power. While Semirhage was torturing Rand, Moridin would've been in extreme pain via the "link" to Rand, and would've wanted Semirhage stopped/killed/whatever-it-takes.

I don't think that was some elaborate plan devised by the DO to addict Rand to the True Power. I think it was more about Moridin selfishly trying to avoid pain.
T C
2066. Freelancer
MasterAlThor@2061

Age challenged? I'll take you straight up in any sport you name, "youngster".

I saw your reference to 2000 for your 1977 item. But I never give away a lady's age unless she does first. (As Wetlandernw did regarding us both being 1960 babies) 1993 I got nothing, except it's a very long term deal, I was just tossing spaghetti on the wall. Undercooked, as usual, nothing stuck.

Longtimefan@2063

I have to disagree with you about Mesaana. No time to get into the details, I'm about out the door to see Brandon. But, when he says that Egwene makes some deductions, he is saying she realizes those three couldn't be her, that in spite of her other logic, Mesaana is still there, which means she has defeated the Oath Rod. I've worked this out several times, it's fairly certain. And it's still Danelle.

And to follow up regarding Masema's followers, they are bleedin' demised, they have shuffled off their mortal coil, they have gone on, passed over.


Ok folks, hopefully I'll get more than one or two questions in, catch you on the flip side.
Wilson Grooms
2067. alreadymadwithnihil
About teaching balefire, Rand did not teach it to random Asha'man, he taught it to Narishma. One of his inner circle, the one he trusted enough to draw Callandor out of the Stone, and therefore single out as the "one who will come after". He also specified that it was for fighting Forsaken, not any other enemy.

LongtimeFan @2063
You are confusing the actual result of the battle of Malden with the result of Faile's ambush. Yes he lost a lot of people at Malden, but he was still able to run off with a handful of followers. That does not quite follow the definition of annihilation. Of course he was annihilated by the time Faile was done with him, though.
Noneo Yourbusiness
2068. Longtimefan
@2066 Freelancer

"I have to disagree with you about Mesaana. (When) Brandon...says that Egwene makes some deductions, he is saying she realizes those three couldn't be her, that in spite of her other logic, Mesaana is still there, which means she has defeated the Oath Rod. I've worked this out several times, it's fairly certain. And it's still Danelle."

Hooray. I have only read the new book once. (I know, the shame, the shame) but I am glad that the Danelle theory is still in play. It is a good theory.

@2067 Alreadymadwithnihil,

You are correct they were not fully removed by the battle at Malden. I was confusing Demandread not knowing the damage from the battle at Malden with not knowing the fate of Masema and his followers.

On this date I will be 100 years old. Go team Future!
Tricia Irish
2069. Tektonica
NeedmoreBerelain@2065

Like the idea of Moridan letting Rand at the TP or perhaps, gasp, reaching through Rand with the TP to end the Pain he, Moridan, was experiencing from Semihage, through Rand. Thus, letting him know how to use it! Can't imagine Moridan wanting to be collared by Semi along with Rand.
Brilliant theory.
Lindy Brown
2070. lbrown
@2065. NeedMoreBerelain

Yeah. Good job. No one's come up with that yet. That makes a lot of sense. :)
Julian Augustus
2071. Alisonwonderland
So many posters are twisting themselves in knots and inventing all kinds of imaginative scenes to make Rand "kneel in front the crystal throne". Nothing of the sort is going to happen and I'm kind of surprised that all these posters, if they are serious, don't see the certainty that the Seanchan version of that prophesy is corrupted.

Look at it this way. The Randland version says the Dragon will bind the nine moons to serve him, while the Seanchan version says the Dragon will kneel to the crystal throne. Only one of these can be right. Which one? Well, the Seanchan monarchy has a strong incentive to corrupt the prophecy in order to tighten their grip on their society. To make the "prophesy" say that even the promised savior of the world is subordinate to the crystal throne is obviously highly beneficial to the occupants of the throne.

On the other hand, what motives would the people in Randland proper have to corrupt their version of the Karaethon Cycle in this respect? Absolutely none. Indeed, nobody on this side of the Aryth ocean even knew what that prophesy meant!

Even without the motives test, the Seanchan version fails on logic alone. The Dragon's rebirth is promised as the only means of the world's survival against the DO in the last battle. It is logically inconsistent for such a savior to be subordinate to another earthly power. If someone else is dictating his actions, or his actions have to be in accord with the wishes of another entity, then how on earth would he be the "savior"? It is whoever he answers to or whoever approves his actions who would be the "savior"!

The Seanchan version of the prophesy doesn't make sense, and there's no need to try twisting all kinds of scenarios to make Rand fulfill a fake self-serving prophesy.
craig thrift
2072. gagecreedlives
You know you’ve been reading too much WOT when you read a sign that says not to use cellular telephones in this area and you read not to use cuendillar telephones

And

When you refer to going to the toilet as the dark one breaking free from his prison.

Might have something more intelligent to add later
Sam Mickel
2073. Samadai
in this year I will celebrate my 102nd birthday.

Damn you alisonwonderland{shakes fists}

ditto to you gagecreedlives
Lindy Brown
2075. lbrown
I finished my mapping out of the storylines of tGS and figured out how many pages were dedicated to who’s Poinr Of View (POV) (as I’ve done with all the other books. Yes, I know, I’m a little crazy.)

The results were generally what I expected but there was one surprise (see below).

We all expected Egwene’s thread and Rand’s thread to take up the bulk of the story, correct? Well, that was true. Looking at just the character’s POVs, the top 2 characters that got the most “face time” (POV time) were:

Egwene – 148 pages (21% of book)
Rand- 101.5 pages (14% of book)

But guess who was at # 3? I was pretty surprised to learn this:
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Mat - 75 pages (11% of book)

He’s not too far behind Rand! I didn't expect that as Mat was only a sideline character in this book. While not much happened to advance Mat’s plotline, he did have a fairly lengthy section in the middle of the book detailing his adventures in Hinderstap. And if you think about it, Mat is the only “representative” of his group. He’s the only one that has a POV. While Rand, on the other hand, is far from the only “rep” of his group.


# 4- 12 are as follows:
Nynaeve- 63 pgs (9%)
Gawyn- 48 pgs (7%)
Siuan- 34 pgs (5%)
Aviendha- 33.5 pgs (5%)
Min- 31 pgs (4%)
Cadsuane- 29.5 pgs (4%)
Tuon- 26.5 pgs (4%)
Perrin – 20 pgs (3%)
Ituralde- 16.5 pgs (2%)

There were 28 total points of view. The rest had 1% or less of the book (in this order) : Renald, Faile, Graendal, Bryne, Jesse, Romanda, Saerin, Adelorna, Falendre, Masema, Tylee, Omnisicient, Sheriam, Leane, Semirhage, Elaida


Now, if we put it in terms of Story line, the rankings are a little different.

Rand/Arad Doman thread- 293.5 (42%)- This includes POVs from the people in Rand’s “group”: Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Min, Aviendha, Semirhage and also those that are part of the whole AD thread: Graendal, Ituralde and the part of Tuon’s POV that involves the Meeting.

Egwene/Tower thread - 270 (38%)- This includes POVs from Gawyn, Bryne and the AS both in the Tower and among the rebels and the applicable Tuon point of view (the one where she sends her rakens off to the Tower).


Mat thread- 75 (11%)

Perrin- 32 pgs (5%) This includes Faile and Masema

Tuon/Seanchan – 23.5 pgs (3%)- Excluding parts mentioned above

So, there you have it. Egwene beats Rand when it comes to personal POV time but Rand beats Egwene when it comes to his whole thread v her whole thread. And Mat representation seems drastically reduced when looked at by plot lines.
Wilson Grooms
2076. Lord Baltimore
I have to agree that Egwene has become my new favorite character. With the whole Ebou Dar business that seemed to last 10 books, I pretty much lost faith in all female WoT characters.

but then... Egwene starts laughing at Silviana DUN DUN DUN! and suddenly she's on track as the most terrifyingly awesome AWESOMENESS of the entire novel! I loved the battle with the Seanchan and everything Egwene did after that was just mind blowing. I wanted to wring the throats of all those man-hating Reds, but then she makes Silviana her Keeper and I was OKAY WITH IT! In fact, I LOVED IT!

One thing I've noticed about Brandon Sanderson: he makes his characters stand-by their beliefs until they have no choice but to do something else. This is visible in Rand and Egwene's storylines. Egwene thinks the Tower should be unified peacefully, but realizes that Tarmon Gaidon is too close, so decides to attack Tar Valon. Fortunately, the Aes Sedai are willing to accept her so she doesn't need to. Rand on the other hand, thinks he needs to solidify himself in order to be stronger, but breaks once he nearly kills Tam (btw, my heart was practically broken at that scene). Then he realizes that emotion is just as important as strength.

In short, I LOVED IT!
R B
2077. MasterAlThor
Freelancer....

Much respect for the Greybeards...but if you really wanna play any sport? Your funeral.

Let's start with football then we can go to basketball.

No cheating with your lasers set up in various spots to blind me either. I am too smart for that.

I know you older guys like to cheat when you can't get us youngsters straight up.

Seriously, if it wasn't for you guys us youngsters wouldn't be around to give you a hard time.

Much love and respect.

As for 1993...if you look at me from the side (what is that term) you just might find the answer.
Wilson Grooms
2078. fathertully
why cant the three become one thing mean three different class's or kinds of channelers.

for example seanchan-black tower-white tower

or at least male channeler if not black tower. three different classes of channelers, all of whom were supposed to be advesaries of the DO.

any thoughts?
Sean Banawnie
2079. Seanie
Alisonwonderland:
I can see a scenario where Rand does kneel to the Crystal Throne . He offers her a chance to save face and solidfy her grip, in exchange for her support and more reasonable treatment of channelers etc.. And to intervene with one very pissed off WT . Which doesn't really want to fight with TG approaching and who wants Elaida back anyway.....
Alice A
2080. Wetlandernw
fathertully @2078 - It's an interesting idea. The only thing I know against it off the top of my head is that a sul'dam/damane pairing can't link with anyone else. However, an unleashed Seanchan damane or a sul'dam who accepted her ability might be a possibility. So there's no reason it can't. I think my biggest reason for not thinking it likely is that we haven't seen those three particularly pointed out as different. They are different, no question, but in that sense so are the Windfinders, the Kin and the Wise Ones, so you have 6 different "types" or "classes" of channelers. It doesn't seem... specific enough, I guess. Still, we can't rule it out based on the evidence so far.
Rich Gold
2081. richg25
got my book and had a vacation last week (already planned) with no internet access - so I'm a little late to all these comments - but a quick search shows that I think nobody's mentioned something yet. Suian actually tells Bryne all about her reasons for doing what she did - actually sharing enlightenment. It's been mentioned many times that one theme of this series is the lack of information sharing. When I read this scene, I thought this might actually be a first? Someone actually sharing detailed info about their motivations!
T C
2082. Freelancer
Hi all. Just saying a quick howdy, got in the door from the signing a few minutes ago. Will gather thoughts, eat dinner, then let you know what I learned and how it went.

As if you all didn't already know, Brandon was a complete prince. He has been working his butt off on this tour, yet when he walks into a location there's no sign of how tired he must be. Gracious, and patient, and humble, and transparent.

More later.
R B
2083. MasterAlThor
So that is where Freelancer has been.

Hi Wetlandernw

Anything good going on? I have been spending time with the fam and doing homework, so I haven't really perused the board yet.

If there is any interesting theroies out there let me know.
Lindy Brown
2084. lbrown
@Freelancer

How many people were there and how long did it take to get through the signing? I'm going to the Portland signing on Thursday and kind of wanted an idea what to expect.
Alice A
2085. Wetlandernw
Hi yourself, MasterAlThor. Not a lot going on; it's been a quiet afternoon & evening. I've collected a few ideas about the Oath Rod thing, but most of that came in a burst last night. I'm sure you've seen it by now. If I were able to go to a signing, I think I'd take a list of our ideas along and ask Brandon if we are anything like on the right track. However, I don't think I'll be able to make it, so... Oh well. I'm sure someone will get there. Maybe Freelancer mentioned it - I'm really looking forward to reading his post-signing thoughts & update!
Lindy Brown
2086. lbrown
@ 2061. MasterAlThor
lbrown....
Hey that was a very good guess. And you are correct sir/madam.


Thanks! It's madam if anyone cares. :)
R B
2087. MasterAlThor
lbrown....

We all care.

Do you know what those bacon bar pastry things are? Someone from Portland mentioned them in a different post?

Are they Maple Bacon Bars??? I am not sure.

Wetlandernw....

You guys deal with the Oath Rod. I am still trying to figure out the BIG clue we missed in books 4-6. I am going to throw a fit if it is something simple like Sammuel being in EotW.
Thomas Keith
2088. insectoid
Hey folks,

My mom and I were at the San Diego signing, and had a great time chatting with Freelancer. We talked about everything from WoT to lasers and other SFF series.

Brandon was very nice, and wondered when I was going to be promoted to Full Asha'man (I went as a Dedicated). Haven't downloaded the pix yet.

Most of Free's questions got RAFO'd, but Brandon did answer some of them; I think I'll let Free tell you what the answers were.

lbrown @2084: Hmm, I'd say at least 100 people. It took Brandon about 2 hours to get through the whole line.
Ron Garrison
2089. Man-0-Manetheran
With all the good stuff in TGS to love, I'm extra fond of Chapter 15 A Place to Begin - ie. Chock Full o' Clues:

"Why have you come here?"
Come here? Rand thought, with shock. Hadn't Moridin brought him?
"I feel so tired." Moridin continued, closing his eyes. "Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."
Moridin gave no reaction. He was still staring at the flames. "We are connected...That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

Moving on to Min and her search for clues on sealing the Dark Ones prison:

She shook her head. What was she doing trying to solve a scholarly mystery? But who else was there? One of the Brown Ajah might be better suited, but could they be trusted?

Hmmm. Brown? Who do we know that might have left Rand a letter...?

"The clues--if that's what they are--are vague. I will keep looking. I promise. I'll find answers for you."
He nodded, and she was surprised to feel his trust through the bond. That was a frighteningly rare emotion from him recently, but he did seem softer than he had during previous days. Still stone, but perhaps with some few cracks, willing to let her inside. It was a beginning.
She tightened her arms around him and closed her eyes again. A place to being, but with so little time left. It would have to do.

And finally I have to quote the dialog between Rand and Min that sounds like this blog:
"...Lew Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He's real."
"...Rand, he's you. Or you're him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they're remnants from who you were before." LOL! I half expected Min to do a *headdesk*.
Barry T
2090. blindillusion
Just some things from the 13thD breakdown of the NYC signing that I found interesting.

~1 It came up at this time that Maria is writing a WoT encyclopedia, to be published shortly after aMoL. Harriet interjected that it will be a “real encyclopedia” not like the “World of the Wheel of Time” her exact words were “Think Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition”.
All I can say is AWESOME and I WILL be buying this no matter the cost.

~2 Q: Is there a Perrin wolf dream/vision that is fulfilled in the time from when Rand almost kills Tam to his epiphany at the top of Dragonmount?
~2 A: If you mean Perrin’s dream with the bandage over his eyes, and dressed like a beggar than yes, that dream was fulfilled by Rand’s actions from Tear to Ebou Dar to DragonMount.
Hmm, well, wonder if this squashes my theory of Rand doing his walkabout/beggar thing in ToM? (I did think this qualified as Rand's beggar experience way back at the top of this Thread.) Because Min also saw a beggar's staff for Rand. And it's interesting that the bandage around the eyes is mentioned. Would that be related to:
And Rand opend his eyes for the first time in a long while

seen in Veins of Gold? Was the bandage simply symbolism? Appears so.


~3 Q: You mentioned a clue that occurred in books 4-6. What can you tell us about that?”
~3 A: Brandon mentioned that he isn’t on the web constantly so he can’t state for certain whether or not it has been discussed. However he doubts very strongly that it has ever been discussed at length. That being said he did say that he was ‘very surprised’ that it hasn’t been discussed. Basically he thought it more important than ‘who killed Asmodean”.
This doesn't help in the least, but it is a little bit more information regarding the Books 4-6 clue every apparently missed.

Q: What did you think would happen at the end before you read the ‘real ending’?
A: Brandon talked a long time about how the first place he ever went on the web was rec.arts.rj. He talked about how RJ stood on the shoulders of giants, mentioning JRR Tolkien by name and he also said that he was surprised that RJ’s genius hadn’t crushed the giants beneath him. When he finally read the ending that RJ wrote he felt the ending was right, perfect and satisfied the promise of the books. He went on to say that aspects of the ending surprised him but that they made perfect sense.
The ending is right, perfect, satisfies the promise of the books, and some aspects are surprising but make perfect sense? I cannot wait to read it!! Two more years of chatting with you fine folks until that day, though. And then hey, we have the Encyclopedia to discuss too!! Good times, they shall continue to come.

~~~
MasterAlThor ~ I see you and Freelancer are gonna play some sports. ::wicked grin:: I challenge both of you to either the vert or street for a little skateboarding.

Or perhaps a light gymnastics workout. I'm a little rusty, but it should be fun for all. =))
T C
2091. Freelancer
Ok, sorry it took so long, but here goes. (I wanted to watch the premiere of the new "The Prisoner")

First off, as Insectoid has already pointed out, we met. Sat in the crowd with he and his mom (an occasional poster here as well, I'll let her decide if she wants to identify herself). The sequence of events was as follows:

- Brandon told the story of his selection as the WoT-completing author.
- He read a few pages from the opening of the Prologue (which he also emphatically stated was all Jordan's material, much of it word-for-word).
- He described "The Materials", the variety of forms of notes, completed scenes, paragraphs, fragments, audio dictations, etc. that were collected by RJ's assistants after his passing and basically dumped in Brandon's lap. Daunting isn't in it.
- The signing. The proprietors of Mysterious Galaxy, (a small, very pleasant independent bookseller which specializes in Hard Sci-Fi and SFF) had everyone exit the store to prepare for the signing, as it required setting up two lines. Those who had already purchased a book, and been given a signing line number (Insectoid & Mom were #1 and #2, yours truly was #3) in one line, those who needed to purchase a book for signing in another. As most of you have read regarding other signing events, Brandon gives each person his complete attention for several minutes, having a sincere conversation, while personalizing his signatures. He accepted questions during this time, but limited to one or two per person. When I told him I had a list of questions from the TOR.COM Leigh Butler re-read crowd, he said he'd gladly work with me after the main signing line.

I would estimate 120-130 folks got between 1 and 5 books signed each. Several brought Warbreaker (myself included), Mistborn or Alcatraz books, and he signed anything of his that was brought, while limiting personalizations.

After the main signing line, he began signing store stock books, as well as doing additional personalizations for the Storm Leaders, who did a terrific job and enjoyed the time as much as any of us. Once he began this, he looked back at me and said, "Two more questions now, go ahead". Then periodically as he was working he'd take more.

During this activity, he was handed the store phone several times. It seems he found a moment in all of this to send a tweet, and folks following him on Twitter started calling in because he told them he'd be at the store about another 45 minutes. The first call came from Australia. He spoke like a long-time friend to each of the folks on the phone, and prepared personalizations for them to be delivered.

Once everything else settled down, and a few Storm Leaders who hadn't read TGS yet had gone, he took a bunch more of my questions. When the shop workers started looking at the clock, he said "Let's let these folks close up, I'll step outside with you for a few more minutes to ask the rest of your questions". We shook hands and he got into the car to take him back to his hotel about 75 minutes after the signing was supposed to end.

This is already a wall of text, so the questions will follow. I just wanted everyone to know how personable and engaging Brandon was to everyone with whom he came in contact. Never once did he give the impression that he wished he weren't there, or that he was burned out by this tour, and he thanked everyone for being faithful readers.


Brandon reading intensely from the Prologue


Brandon talking about Harriet's first call


Brandon with a balding, bearded guy who went there straight from church.


I told him my TORdot nick, and said he didn't need to write any message. He did anyway. Eat your heart out!
T C
2092. Freelancer
San Diego Signing Event, Part II

Something I don't believe that Brandon has previously said as clearly as he did to us today, or else has not been reported. Harriet made it clear to him that Robert Jordan greatly enjoyed the discussions which came up out of the books, that it was one of his great joys to know how much thought was inspired by his work. Because of this, quite a number of the times when Brandon answers a question with RAFO, it might not turn out to be something that will be written into the story, but giving an answer which would end theorizing and discussion wasn't something he wanted to do (yet). He really does wish to answer questions which won't spoil the future text of the story, but he also wants to honor this thinking of Jordan's.

So some questions will have a RAFO next to them, but with a + to indicate it might not really be a Read And Find Out situation.

The questions, in no particular order, and the answers Brandon gave:

Q. Did Verin have anything to do with the attack on Demira Sedai in Caemlyn?

A. RAFO+. Even though Verin's gone now, so much Verin discussion remains that it shouldn't be disturbed. (He took several seconds deciding to RAFO, if that means anything)

Q. Has Narishma fulfilled the prophecy regarding Callandor and "who draws it out shall follow after"?

A. RAFO.

Q. Will Elaida ever learn how badly she has misinterpreted her Foretellings?

A. RAFO+ (He smiled at this one, almost wanting to answer, and later reminded us that there are possible future outrigger stories, which he dared not spoil)

Q. Does Tam al'Thor have a romantic interest in his future, and if so, has he recently encountered the object of this interest?

A. RAFO+ (With a similar comment to the Elaida question above, a Tam-centered story is outlined)

Q. Were the references to Galad, both from Rand's technicolor scrying of Perrin and Tam's mention, intentionally left in place as teasers, or an accidental artifact of the book division?

A. Intentional.

Q. Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

A. Part of it. (That strongly suggests that the "laughter and tears" connection is valid)

Q. Has Graendal's death in any way acquitted her as a suspect in Asmodean's death?

A. (short pause) No. (longer pause) For that matter, I'm not saying definitively that she's dead. (I followed up on this, describing my logic regarding Ramshalan, and got a strong nod, but no more words)

Q. Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?

A. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

Q. Did Ishamael have a hand in how the Seanchan prophecies have come to differ from those of the westlands?

A. RAFO+

Q. Is Tuon's new name, Fortuona, an intentional play on the Latin Fortuna? Many see this as a semantic trick for calling her Lady Luck, which fits being Mat's wife.

A. Good question, and I'm going to allow you to say yes, as I don't think anything of that nature was done without a purpose, but it was Jim's (Robert Jordan) choice, which Maria dug out for me when I realized I needed to create a new name for her upon ascending as Empress. (Hah! All you naysayers who bagged on Brandon for this, saying Jordan would never have chosen such a goofy name)

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

Q. It has been noted that Sulin is incorrectly referred to in a scene with Rand's group in Arad Doman. Who should have been named in the text there?

A. Sulin.

Q. Was the Compulsion which Elza told Semirhage about, Verin's work from after Dumai's Wells, and was it Shaidar Haran who told her about it and to ask Semirhage to remove it?

A. Yes.

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

Q. Is the ter'angreal which Aviendha identifies as related to holes, and requiring a song to activate, the Talisman of Growing for the Ways?

A. (Huge grin) RAFO.

Q. Some commenters (AMW) have noted a seeming discrepancy regarding Egwene's accounting for captured, missing, dead, and present sisters. Is this true, and can it be explained?

A. RAFO.

Q. This was asked at a previous event, and you had to check with Maria regarding whether you should RAFO of give an answer. When Carridin recognized Mat in Ebou Dar, did that trigger some method by which Sammael showed up, like a pager, or was it coincidence?

A. Haven't heard yet from Maria on this one, so it is still a MAFO (Maria and find out)

Q. Did you enjoy Tam calling Cadsuane a bully?

A. (Broad smile) Immensely! She needed to hear it.

Q. Will there be reciprocity for Cadsuane's treatment of Semirhage?

A. If I have anything to say about it.


Ok, folks, that's about it. One other tidbit, Brandon said that there are no scenes in TGS that he invented. Some scenes were from very rough outlines, some in detailed outlines, and some completely finished, but he did not think up scenes at all. He said that there was much creative work for him to do, and there were scenes that he altered in order to blend in with those before/after. He said that Harriet told him that Jim often wrote a dozen or more drafts of a scene before letting anyone else read it, so he didn't have to presume that every word among the notes and outlines was exactly how Jordan would have ended up wanting it, which allowed Brandon the freedom to do what he believed best for the book as a whole. He did quite well indeed.

A thank you to Patrick and Mike at Mysterious Galaxy for their patient and pleasant natures. It was a very long day for them, and I for one appreciate how well they managed everything.


There are about as many again inside the store. It took around 40 minutes for the line to be completely inside, another 50 for the end of the line to reach Brandon.
Ed Rafferty
2093. BigBoy57
Well done Free.

Sounds like you had a great time - I'm so jealous!

Does that answer about Elza and Shaidar Haran exculpate the Wise Ones? I'd have hated to have seen one of them being Darkfriends - though when you think what they allowed Sevannah to get away with you could wonder.

What about that "no scenes invented by BS" - that's one in the eye for all those who loathed the Hinderstap scenario and thought it was all Sanderson - "RJ would never have done something like that" - LOL.

Do we really need to wonder if we are WoT obssessed - 2000+ posts into this thread? Come back quick Leigh - we need you!

By the way - all you characters who keep posting about books 7-11 being no good - I have to say that book 7 (ACoS) is one of my favourites - more than Load of Choss which was only saved by the abduction and Dumai's Wells battle scenes.
Thomas Keith
2094. insectoid
Free @2091, 2092: Nicely wrapped-up.

re: Elza: Am puzzled now; what was the purpose of removing the Compulsion? Would Verin's "instructions" have prevented Elza from harming Rand?

re: Sulin: But...but...she was with Perrin in KoD! I suppose this is another book-split artifacts, huh?

I'll unload our pix tomorrow (read: later today).
T C
2095. Freelancer
Ahh, an important PS.

Brandon's middle initial is W, and he's perfectly fine with folks referring to him as BWS or even just BW. He said his Dad called him "Bee-Dub" for a long time. So there you go, Wetlandernw.


BigBoy57@2093

Yes, there were no darkfriend Wise Ones involved in Semirhage's release. Shaidar Haran gave Elza what she needed to do all of it. She killed the sisters shielding Semi, she untrapped and robbed Cadsuane's wooden box.


insectoid@2094

I'm sure Verin's work had any number of pieces that a Black would rather have removed, though we'll never know exactly what.

re: Sulin, I got the strong impression that some female channeler in Perrin's camp is holding out on him, and knows Traveling. Sulin is reliably seen in Perrin's camp during his pages. Then again, Brandon has said that there's a several week time shift for Perrin's current thread. It could be that once they really did get moving, that Sulin asked to be sent to Arad Doman so she could return to guarding her first-brother, and it is just due to the book division. But Brandon sure had a grin on his face when he said it wasn't an typo.

BTW, I do not have the most comments recorded on the re-read threads, according to Birgit's research during the LoC31 thread. The most total words, yes, but subwoofer and alreadymadwhen have many more entries.
Ed Rafferty
2096. BigBoy57
Hah! I couldn't think of Brandon as "Bee-Dub" I'm afraid - it's too close to what we in Oz call a VW - a "Vee-Dub."

Don't you guys go to bed over there on the East Coast of the USA?
Kurt Lorey
2097. Shimrod
Great review, Freelancer.

I'm kinda with BigBoy57 on the "Bee-Dub" thingy. Around my neck of the woods, those initials represent a "wings" eatery. Of course, maybe BWS really like wings?

Small quibble. I thought Elza actually only killed a single sister (Daigian) in her attempt to help Semirhage?

Hmm. Maybe Sulin is with Perrin, and Graendel is masquerading as Sulin at Rand's camp? (That's my Looney Theory of the Day).
Bouke de Boer
2098. Bouke
Argh, this page takes forever to load!

Also, this page takes an increasing (yet ever-fun) amount of time to keep up with. The work, it helps not.

Sooo, my reply since before the weekend, and more than 200 posts later:
Wetlander @1967. You're right, it does talk of Callandor only. How did I evah read Justice into that?!
(But I still think the sword is Justice, though...)

MasteralThor @2061. Balwer = Demandred... sneaky! But don't we have POVs from Balwer over the last few books? What do they say/imply/leave open?

Now, back to work... -sigh-
Bouke de Boer
2099. Bouke
Heh. My post says 6.02 AM, and I'm at work. No, not a graveyard shift. Just Europe...
Maiane Bakroeva
2100. Isilel
Freelancer @2095:

Yes, there were no darkfriend Wise Ones involved in Semirhage's release. Shaidar Haran gave Elza what she needed to do all of it.

But how did he know where Cadsuane kept it? I doubt that she would have shown the box to Elza, as she was well aware of BA's existence and of the general risk of sharing such important secrets without need.
Also, due to Verin's Compulsion Elza seemed fanatically devoted to Rand and likely to obey his whims, so showing her where access ter'angreal was hidden was particularly unlikely.

IMHO, if Elza with SH's enhancements could beat the wards without knowing exactly how they were constructed, it just points at Bair as a DF or a Compelled pawn of the Shadow.

Re: Sulin - so Sorilea was holding out on Cadsuane, while seemingly approving of her plan to humanize Rand? I mean, if somebody transported Sulin, then they knew quite well where Perrin was. But how is it that Rand didn't react to her presence and failed to connect the dots?

BTW, if Cadsuane really had been good at manipulation, she would have done exactly as Rand surmised at first - i.e. sent Nyn to Perrin and left bringing Tam to Rand to her.
Jim Adams
2101. dubjazz
Dub is of course Bud spelt backwards.
Wilson Grooms
2102. NeedMoreBerelain
Nice summary Freelancer.

Interesting info about Elza there. I still don't see how Shaidar Haran knew where Cad's box was unless the Aiel helped him.

Another thing about that whole scene was that the balefiring of Semirhage/Elza didn't seem to have much effect on the sisters that were maintaining Semi's shield. So that's a clue that has to mean "something" - either the balefire wasn't strong enough to undo actions that far back (how much time passed in that scene? 10-15 minutes?), or maybe Shaidar Haran himself took care of those sisters?
Birgit
2103. birgit
I thought Elza actually only killed a single sister (Daigian) in her attempt to help Semirhage?

Elza killed 3 sisters (Daigian first). Rand balefired Elza. The balefire revived 2 sisters, but wasn't strong enough to revive Daigian.
Helen Peters
2104. Helen
I thought Elza actually only killed a single sister (Daigian) in her attempt to help Semirhage?

That's how I read it as well. One dead, no warder, the 2 sisters with warders only knocked out, otherwise their warders would have given warning that something was up.
Maiane Bakroeva
2105. Isilel
Birgit @ 2103:

Elza didn't kill sisters who had warders, but put them into some kind of trance to avoid giving alarm. Frankly, somebody should have thought to check them for Compulsion afterwards, too.
Barry T
2106. blindillusion
Freelancer@2092

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.


Thanks for asking my question Free.

As to the answer BWS gave.... I guess one could assume the Ring ter'angreals used by the Bloodknives are relics from the land that was Seanchan before Artur Paendrag Tanreall's armies...purged...the land and made it their own.

It was a land of small city-states(?) that vied for power among themselves. Assassination was probably practiced heavily throughout.

Then, that's only a guess on my part. It is good to know 1)Mr Jordan didn't change his mind and 2) Mr Sanderson didn't just decide the Seanchan could suddenly make more than just the a'dam.
Bouke de Boer
2108. Bouke
Re: Balefiring Elza and the dead AS. The POV of the chapter starts with the release of Semi, then shifts to Rand returning to Arad Doman, and ends with the balefiring.

Is there any indication that Semi was released minutes before she slaps the Domination Band on Rand?
IMO, it could have been quite some time since Elza offed Daigian. We know that balefire in extremis (Rhavin) goes back only half an hour, so the small bar that vaporizes Elza would probably erase just a few minutes.
Tricia Irish
2109. Tektonica
Back in my post @2069, I hypothecized
that Moridan reached Through Rand to use the TP on Semirhage in desperation using their strange connection.

Man-o-Manatheran @ 1089 sites the quotes from Chpt. 15 in the Moridan conversation with Rand in TAR, to paraphrase:
Mori: "Why have you come here?"
Rand: "why have you brought me here?"
Mori: I'm so tired, Is that you or is that me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

From Freelancer's report on his Brandon interview @2092,

Brandon answers: "No one can channel theTP without the DO's permission. Rand doesn't have it.

Sooooo......either Rand and Moridan ARE merging somehow.OR Moridan reaches THROUGH Rand to act on Semirhage .

Questions:

Can Moridan be turned to the Light by Rand? (Not likely)

Is the Darkness that's seen around Rand after he uses the TP really Moridan manifesting through Rand into the world?

Can Rand get any useful information from Moridan through this link?

Has Rand gotten rid of him since Opening His Eyes on Dragonmount?

Dun Dun Dun....tune in next book to see if our Hero rids himself of his doppleganger!
Richard Fife
2110. R.Fife
@2071 Alisonwonderland re: corrupt prophecy

I don't think the Seanchan prophecy is corrupt. After all, it did have the comments about the Wolf King choosing the hammer over the axe. From what we have seen of Foretelling, it is not exactly like standard Prophet on the Mountain type prophecy. Nowhere has it been said that the entire Kaetheron Cycle was made by a single AS (at least as I can remember). Why could there not have been AS over in Seanchan that had Foretellings as well. Maybe some of them were identical, but perhaps, as it was a different edition, there were omissions and inclusions.

So, perhaps the Dragon will kneel before the Crystal Throne and bind the 9 Moons to him. Although, I have to wonder if he can bind the 9 Moons anymore, since Tuon is no longer the DotNM. To the kneeling, I can see a simple treaty resolution where they bow to eachother fulfilling both sides. Or perhaps, just like the rest of the Prophecy's, it means something completely wonky and sly.

As to three as one, crazy theory to mix some in. Perhaps Saidin and Saidar will be mashed together with the TP for the new seal, and in doing so will seal all three away as they merge. Thus channelling can end too (as much as I'd prefer it didn't).
Wilson Grooms
2111. Kaffis
In response to ErrantKnave, comment 51 in the NYC Signing thread, diverted here for a bit of spoilage...

I didn't guess that RJ was more explicit about how Rand and Verin's sections would go, either. They definitely seemed to be the more jarring parts of the book.

Rand's activities seemed rather disconnected from any plans he'd had before, and his taverenness failing while meeting Tuon (resisting taverenness through strength of will? Never would have expected that from Jordan!).

Also, Verin I wasn't sure of. It certainly seemed like one of the most likely candidates for "former fan gets to write their favorite theory into reality" syndrome. Not that that's bad -- even if it had turned out that Verin's resolution was pure Sanderson, it would have been awesome. But to look back at it as Robert Jordan's "very explicit" intention, and realize that we, as the fandom community, came so close on so little evidence... so close with TWO theories that were nearly right despite being a pile of wild speculation perched precariously on a little off-hand lie...

Very cool.
Richard Fife
2112. R.Fife
@2111: Just a comment on force of will resisting Ta'veran, Egwene did it back in TFoH, iirc. Or perhaps the beginning of LoC. It was the scene where she goes to talk to him in Cairhien before the TAS embassy barges in on them. He asks her to tell him where the SAS are, and she feels a very strong desire to tell him, but manages to resist. So, rare, but not unprecidented.
James Jones
2113. jamesedjones
2112 R.Fife

But Egwene was only able to resist by grabbing saidar. Tuon did it by sheer willpower alone, proving that she is much cooler. :P
Todd Willis
2114. tswillis
This may have been brought up before but i'm not going through all 2113 post to check...But, I just wanted to say that I'm soooo glad that we still get to read about all the BREASTS in RANDLAND wooohooo!!!! ample, bossimy, arms underneath, skinny but well you get the picture YEA!!!!
Matthew Smith
2115. blocksmith
Nothing like being wrong on two predictions...although, my catching up went substantially faster this morning.

lbrown@2009 and Blindillusion@2053

First, thanks Blind, for posting that information.
I asked the question about Padan Fain with regards to his involvement at TG and in what capacity we may see him. Knowing that he (and the dagger) are all that remains of SL and evil therein, I definitely believe he will be key in eliminating Shaidar Haran.

Wetlandernw@2026

I still hope that his blood on the rocks means Luc is sliced and diced there...

Evalou@2031

Clearly Balwer gleaned something from his conversations with captured Shaido. After all, the WOs put the boxes down, the gateways opened in front of the assembled Shaido, and they were transported to places wide and varied. I'm not sure why, if he were something other than what he is (spymaster/information collector), he would want some of the Shaido WOs to question. If he were Demandred in disguise he would definitely know what the fool boxes were and that Sammael was behind it. I think his reaction to learning that Forsaken could be in disguise was one of disappointment that Perrin knew something he did not.
Wilson Grooms
2116. alreadymadwithdemandred
Demandred had me wondering. His statement was that his rule is secure and that he and his men would be ready. While Masema was obivously acting at the behest of one of the forsaken masquerading as a being of light, he's a bit unstable, which is not what Demandred's statement implies. Demandred's statement implies a standing army or armies. But where would he get another significant fighting force in the Westlands? There's Taim's darkfriend Asha'man, of course, but they can hardly serve as frontline fighters. Graendal did not have any sign of him being among the Borderlander army. I had thought he might also be behind Rhadam Asunawa, but the Whitecloaks have essentially abandoned him. Besides, Amadicia and Tarabon are under Seanchan control and therefore Semirhage's sphere of influence.
What I think is that he might have esconsced himself in Murandy. We hear little about that place nowadays, but behind the scenes the fractious nobles are now united behind Roedran. In fact the last we hear, Roedran was able to assemble a significant enough fighting force to make Talmanes and the Band of the Red Hand choose the better part of valor. The scary thing about this is that it means Demandred assembled his forces without using the typical tools the Forsaken use. No compulsion. No aggressive actions to neighboring countries. Just old fashioned political maneuvering. Which makes him even more dangerous.
Don Barkauskas
2117. bad_platypus
If he [Balwer] were Demandred in disguise...
Demandred is not Balwer. RJ said at a CoT signing that we had not yet seen Demandred's disguise on-screen. Balwer appeared multiple times in CoT and earlier.
Tricia Irish
2118. Tektonica
R.Fife@2110

Re: The Seanchan prophecy that Rand would Bind the Daughter of the Nine Moons To Him......

That has kind of happened with her marrying Mat, hasn't it?
I mean Mat is one of the three best buds from the Two Rivers and firmly in Rand's camp 'O Light. Is that enough binding? Thoughts?
Maiane Bakroeva
2119. Isilel
IMHO, Demandred is in Shara. As the trolloc raid on the manor showed, troops without channeler support would be worthless against Rand and Co.

And Sharans are ideally suited for quick transformation into legions of terror. Their male channelers are conveniently labeled on the face and wholly ignorant. Plucking them and indoctrinating/training them should be a snap compared to Taim's toils at the BT. Keeping them loyal and obedient ditto. Plus the DFs among female channelers, who'd convince general population to follow Dem.
IMHO fighting in Shara was Demandred seizing and securing power and eliminating non DF female Ayyad.

The Shadow won't be limited to Shadowspawn and WT/BT fugitives in the Last Battle - they'll have troops that can be moved by Travelling and a good amount of very strong channelers.

We won't see Shara though - IMHO we'll first hear of Dem's army after he attacks the Aiel remaining in the Waste. The Aiel will be also able to conveniently identify invaders as Sharans.
Barry T
2120. blindillusion
R.Fife@2110

RE: The Prophecies of the Dragon - Isn't it mentioned that Hawkwing's armies brought their edition to Seanchan with them? I'm not sure. But I've aways thought the Seanchan PofD were corrupted by Ishy before the fleets ever left Randland.

Ishy's contributions to Hawkwing's hatred of the Aes Sedai is also seen at this time. It's also one of the reasons I dbout the Seanchan will ever look at Aes Sedai as anything other than those who need to be leashed. Ishy's manipulation of Hawkwing/his family + over a thousand years of thinking this way = the a'dam is here to stay?

~Also, wouldn't the 9 Moons be a symbol of the Seanchan Empire? And the Daughter of the 9 Moons a title Tuon had to represent her position in that Empire?
Tess Laird
2121. thewindrose
Freelancer - Very cool, and I am very jealous.
Sounds like it was a wonderful time.

Thanks for asking about Demira(I will of course maintain my belief that she was behind the attack) - who knows maybe all those letters Verin had were not just for Mat and how unpredictable he is(all though in that unpredictability there is a certain predictableness, if you are, say like sneaky Verin). So I think all those letters are for other people - yay more Verin action!
Don Barkauskas
2122. bad_platypus
@2110,2120:

The Empress rules form the "Court of the Nine Moons" (referenced at least twice in tGH according to encylopedia-wot.org), so "Nine Moons" is, in fact, all of Seanchen.
Tricia Irish
2123. Tektonica
Isalel@2119

Great argument for Dem being in Shara. I keep forgetting about Shara, but I don't think it would have been mentioned if it wasn't going to play a part. We got alot of info on how they function there as well, from Noel, aka Jain. We wouldn't need that if there wasn't a point. Enjoyed your reasoning. It was really the first time I could see the point of Armies in this battle. I thought it would be much more of a Channelling battle and then the sealing of the bore.

blindillusion@2120

The Seanchan hatred/distrust of the Aes Sedai/channelers is understandable given their history, but if they come to realize that the sul'dam can be taught to channel too....including Tuon/Fortuona.....that might change their minds. Plus, I don't think that's a point Rand or the Tower or RJ, for that matter, would concede.

Any theories on how that will resolve?
Ron Garrison
2124. Man-0-Manetheran
Yes, Tektonica, I think that conversation is extremely significant. This unusual connection between Rand and Moridin has them both unsure. And these guys have been around for a very long time. It certainly sets the stage for something completely unprecedented to happen.

As for Moridin reaching THROUGH the bond to shatter the a'dam, I think you have the right of it. What with the "I could throttle Semirhage for what she did." comment and BWS's confirmation that Rand does not have the DO's permission, I'm convinced.

Might there be another circumstance in the future where Rand/Moridin are being so threatened that M reaches through again? Maybe with even more far-reaching consequences? My money's on "Yes" - but then in the back of my mind is "Betrayer of Hope."
Matthew Smith
2125. blocksmith
bad_platypus@2117

Previous post (edit: by others) had alluded to Balwer being someone different than what he was portraying. My point was that he was not Demandred, so thank you for giving more definitive proof.
Wilson Grooms
2126. tinamurrah
There is brief mention that there is stirring in Shara, but no characters have yet been introduced, nor do we know much at all about them. It is my assumption that TG will involve all people, not just those in Randland & Seanchan. Perhaps Demandred has taken up a powerful place there….
Just a thought …
Wilson Grooms
2127. CJD
@2110 R.Fife

'I don't think the Seanchan prophecy is corrupt. After all, it did have the comments about the Wolf King choosing the hammer over the axe..'

The Westlands version of the prophecy also talks about the Wolf King choosing the hammer – from TSR chapter 56, Verin to Perrin, before the battle of Emond’s Field:

'She reached up to turn his axe in its loop on his belt, studying it. "When are you going to give this up for the hammer?"'

‘Corrupt’ doesn’t have to mean completely different, just enough to damage the integrity of the prophecies. There are probably small but significant changes – too many, and it would be much more likely that someone from the Westlands would realize it and counter it. Wouldn’t it be nice if someone could have said to Rand, (at any time between Falme and when he met Tuon) “umm, do you realize that they have a version of the prophecies that says you must bow to them?”.

I think the Seanchan version of the prophecy probably replaced ‘He will bind the nine moons to serve him’ with ‘He will kneel before the Crystal Throne and serve the nine moons’, or something similar, and probably has other ‘minor’ changes, perhaps as well as a few additional sections that are Seanchan-centic. I'd think a Westlander seeing a version like that would dismiss the Seahchan sections and not notice minor embedded changes unless they were actually studying the text.

BTW, I am a long-time lurker – and I have really enjoyed the re-read and all of the posts. Thanks to all!
Julian Augustus
2128. Alisonwonderland
Isilel@2119

Excellent theory, and one that fits all the known facts. I think you have the right of it.
Noneo Yourbusiness
2129. Longtimefan
@ 2111 Kaffis and @2113 Jamesjones

(2111)"Rand's... taverenness failing while meeting Tuon (resisting taverenness through strength of will? Never would have expected that from Jordan!)."

(2113)"But Egwene was only able to resist by grabbing saidar. Tuon did it by sheer willpower alone."

this brings up an interesting question. Did she resist by willpower alone?

A few points

a)Tuon has the ability to channel.
b)Egwene used her hold on Saidar to resist the Taveren pull.
c) Wilders often channel for the first time unknowingly under conditions of extreme stress. (Rand and Bela's fatigue, Nynaeve and bonebreak fever)

Looney therory

Could it be possible that Tuon was channeling for the first time without knowing it during a time of stress?

This is not the most tidy idea but if someone wants to run with it and find all the relevant points feel free.
Wilson Grooms
2130. Dedicated
Concerning the binding of the Nine Moons to Rand.
I am wondering if Rand might use the Ashaman version of the warder bond on Fortuona. That would certainly fulfill the prophecy, but it might also infuriate Mat, assuming he found out.
Wilson Grooms
2131. PelicanPete
Has anyone dressed the fact that since Jain Farstrider (Noel) was compulsed (not a real word)and tortured by Greandal, that this too (the compulsion) should have dropped off?
Maybe now he can act sober?
Wilson Grooms
2132. ysiamrich
Hi - I've been luriking around the re-reads for awhile and just finished TGS which I really enjoyed. I've started to read through some of the posts and was wondering if it has been discussed that Rand's laughing at the end of book is more an insane laugh. He doesn't destoy the world and there is now only one but is it Rand or LTT or Moridan?
I probably need to go re-read that chapter but it was a thought I had at the time.
Tina A
2133. Tinaa
Having just had surgery and being forbidden to lift a book, I have just begun a re-read via audio books (I am currently dictating to my long-suffering non-WOT-loving husband, he MUST love me!). Going to throw this completely looney theory into the mix and see what comes out...

re: Mesaana in hiding. The only sister I have come across who 'taps one finger thoughtfully on her lips' is.. wait for it...





Moiraine. EoTW chapter 10. *ducks*


Ok, please stop throwing stuff, I can't defend myself! I'm sure (virtually) that Moiraine isn't a forsaken in disguise. Although, all of the talk about Mesaana hiding in 'the tower' never specifies the White Tower, does it? (Correct me if I'm wrong, please) Could the tower in question be the tower of Genji? (sp?)

Have fun with this one!
Julian Augustus
2134. Alisonwonderland
Seanie@2179
I can see a scenario where Rand does kneel to the Crystal Throne . He offers her a chance to save face and solidfy her grip, in exchange for her support and more reasonable treatment of channelers etc.. And to intervene with one very pissed off WT.

and R.Fife@2120
So, perhaps the Dragon will kneel before the Crystal Throne and bind the 9 Moons to him.

I get the impression that what we have here is a failure in definition.

In the WoT world, kneeling to someone is synonymous with acknowledging that person as your lord/master. Check back to tEotW where Ishamael kept on trying to persuade Rand to turn to the shadow... his main argument was that the DO would give Rand immortality, dominion over everyone else, etc., etc., all Rand had to do was kneel to the DO just once.

So, if the prophesy says the Dragorn Reborn will kneel to the crystal throne, it means Rand will acknowledge the occupant of the crystal throne as his lord/master. You don't really think that is consistent with the logic of the series, do you?

The Randland version, as quoted by Moiraine in tDR says "he will bind the nine moons to serve him". That is the exact opposite of the Seanchan version in terms of the relationship between Rand and the Seanchan empress. Both prophesies cannot be corect.

If you believe that Rand will kneel to the crystal throne, you are in effect saying the version quoted by Moiraine is incorrect.

Everyone is at liberty to believe whichever one of the two versions they want, but I am saying that logically the Seanchan version doesn't make sense in the context of the story.

Oh, I didn't imply that the entire Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle is corrupted, only that the Seanchan had very good motivation to reverse the relationship between their empress and the Dragon Reborn.
R B
2135. MasterAlThor
First and foremost, a big thank you to Freelancer. You are awesome and a good portion of us are insanely jealous.

Now on to the rest of you.

Blindillusion...

Mrs. AlThor would have our heads for attempting to vert, halfpipe or even looking at a skateboard. Maybe we could do something else....like Tai Chi.


Freelancer....

Greybeard indeed. Great pic brother.

Bouke...

We don't get any POV on Belwar that I can remember. But the theory has been debunked.

R.Fife....

You tickled a thought about the DotNMs. It said that he would bind the DotNMs to him. (paraphrasing) Mat's marriage would qualify.

tswillis....

YES!!!!! I too am glad. My wife would fit right in Randland.

AMW.....

What I think is that he might have esconsced himself in Murandy. We hear little about that place nowadays, but behind the scenes the fractious nobles are now united behind Roedran. In fact the last we hear, Roedran was able to assemble a significant enough fighting force to make Talmanes and the Band of the Red Hand choose the better part of valor. The scary thing about this is that it means Demandred assembled his forces without using the typical tools the Forsaken use. No compulsion. No aggressive actions to neighboring countries. Just old fashioned political maneuvering. Which makes him even more dangerous.


Very interesting.

bad_platypus....

Thanks for debunking my possible Belwar/Demandred theory. BTW does the name Perry mean anything to you?

Isilel....

I like this theory. Tell us more please.
Richard Fife
2136. R.Fife
@2131 a) I think it was Ishy that messed up Jain's head, from his taunting of Rand in early books. b) if it was Greandal, her compulsion would still be there, as it would have been laid on him years prior, and I doubt even CK balefire was that powerful.

@2132 I think it is supposed to be the amalagation of Rand, LTT, and all the previous Dragons. In short, he is the Kwisatz Haderach (sorta). Moridin is still who he is, I think, but Rand has fully developed into the "Champion of the Light"
Henry Loose
2137. schrodinger
@alisonwonderland 2134

i think most of us agree with you that the seanchan version of the cycle of the dragon is corrupted, to the extent that the relationship has changed between the rulers and the dragon, however, I believe that the reason it changed was due to Ishamael's influence over the later years of Hawkwing's rule (he would have had influence over pretty much everyone in that court, including Lothair paendrag (sp?) before he went to conquer seanchan. (I remember that somewhere, Tuon mentions that the original inhabitants had a cycle that was different from the current one, and more resembled the one seen in Randland). Ishamael's main goal being to spread discord and distrust before and during Tarmon Gai'don. Ishamael does brag about influencing the decision to send troops to seanchan and how it would harm the efforts of the light come Tarmon Gai'don. Just some thoughts. (most of us, i think, believe that to get around this attack by Ishamael, Rand will do what Ishamael does not expect him to do, which is bow to the throne to have a unified light force).
Kjell Løvås
2138. Kjell
This is my first post. I have not read all comments so what I want to say others may have already mentioned. Mesaana is very happy to get the 12 dream ter'angreal. Will we see Egwene experience from her testing in TDR chp. 22 come true. Will Mesaana use the dream ter'angreal with 13 Black sisters to turn Egwene to the dark one in Tel'aran'rhiod, or try to turn her.

I think the book was great. And the re-read is fun. Keep up the good work Leight.
Henry Loose
2139. schrodinger
@R.Fife 2136

good analogy to the Kwisatz Haderach, although not like the Paul Maud'dib version, but the Duncan Idaho version (who is actually remembering past lives, instead of ancestors) in the later books done by Herbert's son.
Wilson Grooms
2140. ysiamrich
On the kneeling to the throne, Rand could kneel to the throne to make peace (I know not in synch with my Rand is insane comment). His obeservations were that the Seachan were better at nation building than Rand is so he could kneel in exchange for leading the combined forces. The Nine Moons would be serving Rand for the war and Rand would help the Seachan create peace after the war.
I think that the seal being perfect would mean the end of the source and no more issues with a'dam/sulam.
R B
2141. MasterAlThor
Longtimefan....

If Tuon gets sick in the next book we will have our answer.

Tinaa....

Danelle and I think a few others display this trait.
Maybe your husband was.....compulsed???

Joking aside, get well soon.

And thanks to Tinaa's husband for helping her stay in contact with the crazys.

Alisonwonderland....

I agree with your assesment. If Rand does kneel to the Crystal Throne then something is wrong with the Karaethon Cycle. Nothing so far proves that it is corrupt. The Seanchan Prophecies were corrupted by Ishy.

I just don't understand how Rand will bind her to serve him. That is the important part. Serve him.
Wilson Grooms
2142. ysiamrich
@ 2136 - I like the Kwisatz Haderach thought - I am a big Dune fan so can go with that.
Carolyn Goodwin
2143. metacarolyn
First Selector way back @ 1937: Thanks! And Congrats to you too! Mine are 2 yrs & 2 months. You're probably right about Min, it was just one of those random thoughts.

tswillis @ 2114: This reminds me of one of those words that stuck out as not right in TGS. At one point we hear about someone's 'bust'. I stopped reading and said "bust! No, that should be bosom!".

Dedicated @ 2130 and others regarding the Binding of the Nine Moons prophecy: Maybe Rand & Egwene will have Fortuona swear on the Oath Rod, aka Binder. Probably not likely, but who knows?
Ron Garrison
2144. Man-0-Manetheran
Given the extreme narcisism of the Seanchan imperial family, might they live forever, it takes little convincing for me to believe that the Seanchan version of the prophecies underwent a small "edit" at some point.
Julian Augustus
2145. Alisonwonderland
Schrodinger@2137
most of us, i think, believe that to get around this attack by Ishamael, Rand will do what Ishamael does not expect him to do, which is bow to the throne to have a unified light force

I don't want to keep harping on this, but it doesn't seem to be understood that locically we can't have it both ways. If we believe that Rand will kneel to the crystal throne, for some of the reasons stated, then it also means we are saying the Randland prophesy that says "he will bind the nine moons to serve him" is wrong and cannot be fulfilled.

I have stated reasons why I believe the prophesy that says he will kneel to the crystal throne is wrong and cannot be fulfilled. I'll be curious to know on what basis supporters of the kneeling prophesy are dismissing the prophesy about binding the nine moons to serve him.
R B
2146. MasterAlThor
metacarolyn....

That would be a dirty trick. Rand & Egwene wouldn't stoop to something so low would they? I mean they are the good guys right?

I love it. Make it happen BWS.

Couldn't you just see it?

Rand to Tuon;
Sooooo, you're the Empress now.

Tuon: Yes

Egwene: And you will not concede to letting your chanellers go?

Tuon: ..... (what right does she have to speak to me)

Rand....

Well let me offer you a gift. (Egwene hands Tuon the Oath Rod, while chanelling just a thin flow of Spirit) You should repeat after me.....

That would be great.
Sam Mickel
2147. Samadai
I hate to debunk a good theory, but if Tuon channeled you would think that there would have been some reaction from all the suldam and damane she had brought along. Not to mention Nynaeve with her knowledge of them surely would have said something about Tuon channeling.
Cheryl
2148. First Selector
On the nine moons prophecy debate:
So first of all if either prophecy is corrupted, it makes sense to me for it to be the Seanchan for reasons others have given. But I don't think the 2 prophecies are necessarily mutually exclusive.

I think it possible that just the interpretation of the Seanchan prophecy is wrong. Light knows this happens plenty in the series. Sure to bow to someone is generally accepted to mean 'acknowledge as your master'. But it seems to me that prophecy tends to turn accepted meanings on their heads. So the prophecy could actually be fulfilled by Rand simply bowing to Fortuona out of respect/diplomacy and then proceeding to some how bind the Seanchan to him.
Carolyn Goodwin
2149. metacarolyn
Master Al'Thor @ 2146:

Funny, but no, they'd never manage to trick Tuon. I was picturing her in a situation dire enough that she agrees to swear in order to get Rand to trust her.

Would the Oath Rod even work on Tuon? Someone who could learn, but has never actually channeled. hmmm . . .
T C
2150. Freelancer
Follow-ups...

RE: Elza. True, she only killed Daigian, I had that wrong.

We call VW's Vee-Dub's here in the states as well. It was his suggestion.

RE: Darkfriend Wise Ones. I'll make it clearer. There are none in Rand's group.

RE: Elza's "devotion" to Rand. Not true. She took the oath, because she was determined to see him live to face the Dark One, and lose.

The balefire Rand used on Semirhage and Elza was pinpoint, very small.

RE: Bloodknife rings, BWS gave me the strong impression that they were acquired in a mass cache. Still a number of possibilities, such as Ishamael during one of his periods of freedom.


Tektonica@2109

I'm sorry, but it was Rand who embraced and used the True Power. There is no room in the text for it to have been Moridin using Rand as a conduit.


RE: Seanchan prophecy of the Dragon, it is corrupt. BWS agreed with that part. He RAFO'd whether Ishamael had a hand in making it corrupt.


Tektonica@2123

I need to address your statement that we wouldn't learn details about Shara unless they had a point in the story. This isn't necessarily true. According to BWS, Jordan included massive amounts of worldbuilding details in order to make the world more realistic, even if those details provided no function to the plot. That doesn't mean that the theory is wrong, it could be dead on, but we can't assume that just because we've learned how channelers are handled in Shara means that knowledge matters to the conclusion of the story. No guarantees of that sort.
Henry Loose
2151. schrodinger
@2145 Alisonwonderland

the two, (while the seanchan version is corrupt) are not mutually exclusive). Think of the seanchan servants. They bow to their "masters" yet some have enormous control/power...

Rand's main goal is to have a united light army to win Tarmon Gai'don, to do this, he needs the seanchan. Tuon will not back down, its not in her character, but she will compromise. If Rand agrees to bow to her, she could agree to some of his demands, allowing for a unified force, thus serving Rand's goals overall.

It could also be that, as I mentioned above, since Mat is now a part of the seanchan imperial court, the prophecy is already fulfilled. (Mat serves as a part of Rand's army, and as a weaker Ta'veren, he is subservient to Rand's pull on the pattern).

I personally think that the first idea is the more likely. Rand has a meeting with Tuon, they agree to terms where he recognizes Tuon as ruler, and she agrees to put the might of the seanchan empire to serving Rand's goals for Tarmon Gai'don. (the bowing being a sort of BINDING contract between Tuon and Rand).

Just a quick question: why do you dismiss the corrupt seanchan prophecy? just because it is corrupt does not mean that it cannot come true... Jordan put it in for a reason.

Edit: also, going on the fact that the K cycle has been fairly ambiguous so far and that until an event happened, in some of the cases, it was not obvious what that event would be; we will have to RAFO in ToM (I know that is everyone's least favorite phrase, but unless Senior Sanderson is feeling exr-eh-heeemely generous, I doubt we will know for at least another year).
Kurt Lorey
2152. Shimrod
Offhand, I would have to presume that none of the Forsaken knew how to make ter'angreal, angreal or sa'angreal.

Otherwise, they would have likely made their own. Graendel had found one in a cache. Lanfear picked one up (briefly) that was left in front of her by Moiraine, I can't think of any others.

Seems more likely that some pre-Seanchan channeler had the knowledge and made them as weapons during the incessant "Aes Sedai" wars that occurred before the arrival of Artur Hawkwing's son.
Richard Fife
2153. R.Fife
@2145: The prophecy is already rife with apparent contradiction, such as the whole callandor prophecy with the Dragon needing to draw it before he conquers the Stone.

Thus, as they said, it could be a tit-for-tat treaty. Rand gets Seanchan for TG, Seanchan get the "authority" of the Dragon post-TG. It is a bit of a logical bend, but prophecy seems to like that.

I'm still not completely sold on the Seanchan Prophecy being a true corruption so much as just another version. Even with Ishy's influence during Hawkwing's time, and even with the original Seanchan version of the prophecies being different from what was brought.

As to the arrogance of the Seanchan Imperial Family and them possibly having corrupted: if the corruption happened, I'd bet it happened pre-conquest. Most likely having prophecy saying "Even the savior of the world will bow to you" would make them pretty uppity.
Richard Fife
2154. R.Fife
just read stuff that went up while I was typing.

Re: Freelancer: if BWS says that the prophecy is corrupt, then so be it, WoG. I'll still say that I'm more of the opinion that Ishy would have done it than the Imperials themselves. Also of the opinion that über-Dragon Rand would be willing to compromise with the Seanchan.
Ron Garrison
2155. Man-0-Manetheran
Freelancer: re. the use of the True Power by Rand

Did you not quote BWS as saying:
Q. Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?

A. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

Sounds like he is saying Rand did not channel the True Power.
T C
2156. Freelancer
Longtimefan@2129

It's certainly possible that Tuon made her first embrace of saidar while resisting Rand, unfortunately that hasn't been asked yet. Of course, it would be RAFO'd on principle if it had.


Dedicated@2130

You think Rand wants anyone else crowding that head of his? He just ended one connection, and he still has five more, two of which he doesn't love.


PelicanPete@2131

Two things. I don't think it was Graendal, but Ishamael, who did to Noal Charin what keeps him from remembering. . . what he can't remember. And that happened more than long enough ago that it wouldn't be undone by ANY amount of balefire. Ramshalan's Compulsion was less than an hour old, and Rand certainly used enough on Graendal to wipe that.

I'll remind you that Brandon said yesterday that he refuses to verify that Graendal is dead.


Tinaa@2133

Get better soon!

Three different POVs place Mesaana as among the White Tower residents. Not to mention her interactions with Alviarin. She has to be there, and able to eavesdrop at random.


Rand will NOT bow to the Crystal Throne, this I Foretell. He is who he is, and serves no human government. He should never show subservience to anyone but his Creator. Just as our President should never bow to another nation's leader. ::sniff::


blindillusion/MasterAlThor - Skateboarding is definitely out. It's for teens with a low center of gravity, not tall people with lots of upper body weight. Bad juju.


I believe that Shara and Murandy are the best two bets for Demandred.


Kjell@2138

If my math is correct, Sheriam acquired 18 dream ter'angreal for Mesaana. She threatened to remove a digit (finger or toe) for every one of 20 which Sheriam failed to retrieve, 19 when Sheriam admitted one was already lost (with Siuan? can't remember OTTOMH). And we later see Sheriam with one bandaged finger, Egwene wondering why she hadn't sought Healing.


Samadai@2147

You would be correct, every other female channeler would notice if Tuon channeled. Some might be able to notice if she simply embraced the Source for the first time, if they were close enough and paying attention. Remember, Egwene didn't defeat Rand's ta'veren pull by channeling, but by grasping saidar. So, you may be onto a good evidence that Tuon hasn't yet manifested her ability, put there might be a small hole in it as well.


metacarolyn@2149

Good question, I would believe that the Oath Rod would function on anyone with the ability, whether they've ever channeled or not. I make a connection with the a'dam trick the Empress of Seanchan occasionally plays, putting the bracelet on a man. Those times when the two die screaming, it was a man who could have learned.


Man-o-Manetheran@2155

He was saying that Rand channeled the True Power while sidestepping the DO's restriction, by pulling through his link with the only person who does have permission. I absolutely promise you, though he danced around saying those words, had you been there you'd understand that's what it means.
Don Barkauskas
2157. bad_platypus
MasterAlThor @2135
bad_platypus....

Thanks for debunking my possible Belwar/Demandred theory. BTW does the name Perry mean anything to you?
He's a semi-aquatic, egg-laying mammal of action...

:-)
Don Barkauskas
2158. bad_platypus
(Edited to re-correct reference in first quote.)

Freelancer @2156:

Tinaa@2133

Three different POVs place Mesaana as among the White Tower residents. Not to mention her interactions with Alviarin. She has to be there, and able to eavesdrop at random.
Two of those (Alviarin and Graendel) both even specify that Mesaana is posing as an AS. Does Verin specify Mesaana is an AS? (I belive so, but I don't recall for sure.) (It just occurred to me that in the above possibly "White Tower residents" = AS. If so, ignore this comment. :-)

Rand will NOT bow to the Crystal Throne, this I Foretell.
Your arguments make sense, but I'm in the camp that both sets of prophecies will turn out to be true---the whole "multiple meanings when translating from the Old Tongue" will somehow rear its ugly head.

Kjell@2138

If my math is correct, Sheriam acquired 18 dream ter'angreal for Mesaana. She threatened to remove a digit (finger or toe) for every one of 20 which Sheriam failed to retrieve, 19 when Sheriam admitted one was already lost (with Siuan? can't remember OTTOMH).
You are correct; the Salidar Hall assumed Leane had it when she was captured; they didn't know she had been lending it to Siuan.

metacarolyn@2149

I make a connection with the a'dam trick the Empress of Seanchan occasionally plays, putting the bracelet on a man. Those times when the two die screaming, it was a man who could have learned.
Minor point, but it would probably also happen with sparkers, judging by Rand's reaction when he merely touches the clasp of an a'dam in tFoH.
Wilson Grooms
2159. WhizNZ
I confess I haven't gone through all the comments but I don't think this has been brought up yet.

Cadsuane mentions in one chapter that she tried on the a'dam and found that there was no way to remove it. From TGH we know that a damane who tries to remove the a'dam with the intention of releasing herself experiences nausea and this is consistent with Cadsuane's experience. However, I've always struggled to understand how the Windfinder in WH managed to remove her a'dam. She would still have had the intention to release herself right?

I'm sure someone much more learned than I will have an answer to this, I was going to bring it up in the re-read posts but since Leigh's gone on vacation...

Longtimefan
With regards to Tuon channelling wouldn't that be great if that was true. But I'm pretty sure somewhere it says Tuon had about 100 sul'dam damane with her so one of them must have spotted something so I have to agree with Samadai there.
Wilson Grooms
2160. Dedicated
Freelancer @ 2156

Bonding the empress seems to be a logical possibility to resolve the prophecy to bind the 9 moons to him. I am not certain that another link would bother him all that much. Rand is after all the master of links. He has the 5 people inside his head, yes, but that is just part of the story. He also has his taveren links to to Perrin and Mat. And who knows how many people are caught in his taveren whirlpool in the pattern. There may also be a link to Mordeth through the Shadar Logoth wound. And now maybe he can remember multiple lives of past dragons.

WhizNZ @2159

Mat removed the windfinders a'dam. He made her practice removing one, not for her benefit, but instead to allow her to know how to remove the a'dams from the other windfinders.
Now all of that said, I do not think Rand would do this. First, because Allana did it to him and he knows how he felt about it. Second, if he knows the Ashaman method of bonding, he would have to kiss her to do it, which is an assault that neither Fortuona nor Selucia would be willing to allow.
Wilson Grooms
2161. Dedicated
Boy that post just got messed up. Last minute additions do not work well. The WhizNZ line about the windfinders was supposed to come at the bottom, not in the middle of the post!
T C
2162. Freelancer
bad_platypus@2158

Yes, it goes without saying that a male sparker, or one who has already learned, would also suffer in the a'dam link with a damane. I was intentionally pointing out that ter'angreal which work on channelers would likely work on non-sparkers who've never channeled as well, thinking of Tuon and the Oath Rod, in answer to metacarolyn


Dedicated@2160
Second, if he knows the Ashaman method of bonding, he would have to kiss her to do it, which is an assault that neither Fortuona nor Selucia would be willing to allow.

Wouldn't thrill Mat either.
Matthew Smith
2163. blocksmith
ManoManetheren@2155

On the TP channeling by Rand, I have come to two following conclusions...and your statement of

Sounds like he is saying Rand did not channel the True Power.


got me thinking along one of them. For both, it is assumed, I think correctly now, that Rand is channeling the TP through his connection/link to Moridin

The first is that the whole sequence of events...Semi being freed, SH/Elza delivering the Domination Bands, and the ultimate use of the TP by Rand was calculated maneuver by the DO to both force Rand into using the TP and punishing Semi (and Elza) for their failures.

The second, possibly more intriguing but less likely theory, is that Rand channeling the TP was an unintended consequence. This would mean the goal was to capture Rand and deliver him to SG as a captive and bound. Obviously I am trying to read into the information provided by Freelancer on this.

It's the next logical step I still thinking out. If intended or not, what will Rand's use of the TP ultimately mean?
Wilson Grooms
2164. Bandenjamin
OK, so I didn't read 2200 comments, but I did manage to get through the first 800 and there was a repeating theme that's been bothering my.

Why the insistence that the TP is actually evil? Maybe we are simply misinformed and like the OP/TS it is just another power, neither good nor evil.

begin looney theory

Maybe the TP is actually what the DO's prison was made out of at the end of the previous 3rd age, and it doesn't come up as something that gets noticed again till the 2nd age when Miran (sp is wrong, but I have no books) drills a hole to access it.

From that the channeling people infer that the TP can only come from the dark one, maybe he just has a certain measure of control over his followers accessing it. He obviously has control over them accessing the OP (see LoC).

Maybe when Rand reached out the the TP he just did. So when Rand, Logain, and Alivia link they can each bring a different power through Callendor and seal the DO prison good as new.

/looney theory
T C
2165. Freelancer
blocksmith@2163

I cannot share your conclusion. The "calculated maneuver" to get Rand to channel the True Power is actually the much less likely scenario, indeed impossible because it would really mean that the DO authorized it's use by Rand, and he specifically did not.

That Rand "accidentally" discovered his indirect access to the DO's Power is far more likely, in spite of being unintended by all parties. Here's the logic. Nobody can channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission. Only Moridin has that permission, Rand does not. But the Dark One doesn't know everything, and the Dark One sensing the True Power being used would assume that it's Moridin using it. And in a way, it is, with Moridin acting as a ter'angreal for Rand, giving him that indirect access.


Bandenjamin@2164

If you searched in the thread on True Power, you would have quickly discovered this thought being answered quite thoroughly. The True Power is effectively the essence of the Dark One. Those are Brandon's words from one of the signing events.
Ron Garrison
2166. Man-0-Manetheran
Whether Rand used Moridin as a ter'angreal or Moridin reacted to the a'dam through the bond is a fine point. What is significant is this BOND. These guys have been reincarnated thousands of times, but this is NEW.

"Why have you come here?"
Come here? Rand thought, with shock. Hadn't Moridin brought him?
"I feel so tired." Moridin continued, closing his eyes. "Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

Bandenjamin:
The True Power is the Dark One's
The One Power is the Creator's manifest as saidin and saidar.
Wilson Grooms
2167. Wes S.
Freelancer@2165

I'm one of those who's been wondering from the beginning if Semirhage's attempt to kidnap Rand was actually meant to succeed in the first place...and that the whole point of the exercise wasn't to capture Rand, but rather put him in a position where he would have no choice but to reach for the True Power in order to save himself. (And Min, of course.)

And if the Dark One wasn't the one pulling Semirhage's strings, then why not Moridin himself?

Yes, I know, it was Shaidar Haran who freed Semirhage, with Elza's help, and we know thanks to Mesaana (*shiver*) that "Hand of the Dark" isn't just a name, but this isn't the first time he's seemingly done Moridin's bidding. Remember it was Shaidar Haran who brought Moghedien as a captive to Moridin in the first place, and it's been clear ever since Moghedien's mindtrapping that Moridin is calling the shots for the forces of the Dark...and pretty much doing what he wants, with the so-called "Great Lord's" blessing.

Including, it would seem, giving Rand access to the True Power through himself. Because there's no question that Rand channeled it.

And, as somebody pointed out, whether Moridin was channeling the TP through Rand or letting Rand channel it through him, the DO would simply figure it was Moridin either way. Assuming the DO cared, under the circumstances.

As to why Moridin would do such a thing - and why the DO might let him get away with it even if He didn't actually give either Moridin or Rand permission to do such a thing:

We know from several sources that the TP is incredibly addictive. Perhaps Moridin is trying to corrupt Rand and bring him to the dark side ahead of time, as it were, so it will be less of a battle to merge with him later. Remember how "sweet" the TP tasted to Rand? Sort of like how the fruit of the forbidden tree was supposed to taste to Eve.

I also forget who mentioned that there was a definite Arthurian parallel between the darkness growing within Rand, and the blight that seems to be sweeping all of Randland. Ever since Rand channeled the True Power (however he got hold of it) it's as if Rand was carrying around his own personal thundercloud. Warps of darkness in the air around him, and all that. As the king goes, so goes the land. And it would definitely suit the Dark One's purposes to have all the land dying even before Tarmon Gaidon.

And despite the uplifting ending of TGS, I'm wondering if that shadow of darkness is still clinging to him. Or if that darkness is entirely, as Leigh put it, "Moridin-leaking bullshit."
T C
2168. Freelancer
Wes S.@2167
I'm one of those who's been wondering from the beginning if Semirhage's attempt to kidnap Rand was actually meant to succeed in the first place...


Anyone is absolutely welcome to speculate all they wish. After considering it, I find it falls apart:

Shaidar Haran POV:

Let's teach that Black "sister" Elza a few things, so she can free Semirhage and open that wooden box with the Domination Band inside. We'll let her know she's got a mild, unusual form of Compulsion inhibiting her choices. Semirhage will have to remove that once she's free.

We'll give no direct instructions to Semirhage, but we'll hope she decides to collar the Dragon as quickly as possible.

Then we'll hope the Dragon gets so desperate that he discovers an unknown access to the True Power. We know this is impossible, nobody can channel the True Power without the Great Lord's permission, but we also know that he's the most strongly ta'vereon person in history, so we're sure he'll find a way.

When the Dragon channels the True Power, let's hope he uses it to destroy the Domination Band, which so many agents of the shadow have suffered so much trouble to acquire, and with which we had hoped to control him.

Now let's hope he balefires Semirhage, because she failed so much she deserves to be burned out of the Pattern. Even though she was a useful agent, and had remained successfully undercover for months, he can blast Elza also.

Now that we had him collared for just a few moments, and he's free again, he'll turn his heart so hard that he'll be ours more than if the collar had stayed on him. That will be worth the loss of the collar, and a member of the chosen, and a faithful Black "sister". I'm sure of it.

Graendal is late for her latest appointment, I wonder what's keeping her?
craig thrift
2169. gagecreedlives
I was leaning towards the Semirhage was set up camp but no longer so sure.

I think it might depend on what the actual relation between Shaidar Haran and Moridin is.

What if Shaidar was working independently and it was part of a master plan to get Rand collared/captured but Moridin sh*ts himself and decides he doesn’t like where this is going and how it could affect him uses Rand to somehow channel the True Power.

BTW well done on the Q&A session Freelancer. I am completely jealous.
Wilson Grooms
2170. NeedMoreBerelain
One way to have Rand channel the True Power, even though the Dark One has only given permission to Moridin, would be if the Dark One was fooled by the weird Rand/Moridin link and from his point of view the two are indistinguishable.

I guess this is a tad bit loonier than the conduit explanation. Maybe more interesting though.
Alice A
2171. Wetlandernw
Well done, Freelancer! I am envious, especially since it doesn't look probable that I'll be able to make it to the Seattle signing on Wednesday. Thanks so much for asking my favor of a middle initial. ::great sigh of relief:: I have lots of thoughts on the rest of your Q&A (and subsequent comments), but it will have to wait until the kids are in bed. Let me say again, well done, and THANK YOU! (Love the pix, too!)
Thomas Keith
2172. insectoid
Free @2165 re: True Power: That is... frightening to contemplate. As Leigh noted, nothing good can come of this...

EDIT: Graendal is late... Heh.
T C
2173. Freelancer
NeedMoreBerelain@2170

Not loony at all. My take on how it worked is that Rand drew the TP via Moridin's granted access. As far as the DO can tell, Moridin channeled it.


Funny tidbit from last night. As the good folks at Mysterious Galaxy were trying to shut down, Brandon suddenly says, "Do you guys have the second Dresden Files book? I need something to read on the flights, and I'll buy it."

They sold it to him. Now, I know that they're in business to make money, but if you ask me Brandon just made them a fair bit, they could have sprung for a paperback for the NYT #1 fiction author.

Just sayin'.
Jacy Clark
2174. Amalisa
Tinaa@2133

*weaves a Healing*

Moiraine as Mesaana. No. I will throw up my hands in despair and never read another epic fantasy book again if that turns out to be the case. *lol*

Actually, lots of Sisters tap their lips with their fingers while thinking. Apparently, to make us all wonder who it could be...

Freelancer@various

So the Graendal-is-alive theory isn't completely off the table??

So very jealous of your opportunity to meet with BWS and ask him questions! Awesome job! Congrats!
Tess Laird
2175. thewindrose
Freelancer, what were your questions for BWS?

On the Rand channeling the True Power, I think it was his last chance if you will to not kill Min. He was grasping at straws and one happened to be his link to Moridin and he used it. The link goes both ways, so of couse Moridin is going though some of what Rand is, so I see it as him saying the hell with Semi - balefire her - here have some power to do it. (Wetlandernw - I loved B5 - Morden indeed.)

A good thing to think of now is, will Moridin let him taste that power again? Can he stop Rand if Rand tries to use it again. How bad for the light if he does use it(I am imagining very bad.)
T C
2176. Freelancer
Still at work, so no access to the text, but guess what, it has already been posted here:
He screamed, in both rapture and rage, and wove enormous spears of Fire and Air. He slammed the weaves against the collar at his neck, and the room exploded with flames and bits of molten metal, each one distinct to Rand. He could feel each shard of metal blast away from his neck, warping the air with its heat, trailing smoke as it hit a wall or the floor.

Folks, this is Rand. Channeling. The. True. Power.

Knowingly, intentionally. He didn't know what he'd gotten hold of at first, except that it let him channel. But this is not a description of Moridin channeling through him. Rand is deciding what to use and how. Can we give that up yet?
Ed Dyer
2177. HumbleReader
@2165 Freelancer -
And in a way, it is, with Moridin acting as a ter'angreal for Rand, giving him that indirect access.

But that is exactly how two channelers link to form a circle. It is described as such when the SG's teach the Windfinders when they set up the circle to use the Bowl of the Winds. Does that mean that the rules on linking as described in the BBOBA apply only to the One Power, but not the True Power? This must mean that two men can link with the TP !

(or else that either Rand or Moridin is not a man :-)
Wilson Grooms
2178. Tyranassam
Regarding the Seanchan version of the prophesy...

Tuon was a sul'dam, so she was able to control an a'dam. Perhaps she and Alivia will link with Rand through the male a'dam, thus fulfilling both versions.

"The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him."
Wilson Grooms
2179. YT99
Actually, I think Rand using the True Power is demanded by the Pattern. In one of the scenes in TGS where Rand is talking with Lews Therin, LT mentions that the reason saidin got tainted was that in order to seal the DO in his prison, something had to touch him. Because the female Aes Sedai refused to participate in the strike at Shayol Ghul, it was just LT and the Hundred Companions. Thus, it was only saidin that touched the DO to re-seal him in and saidin was tainted. Rand pulling in the True Power through his connection to Moridin sets him up to be able to seal the Bore with the True Power, and walk away with no taint.

I don't think it was planned or allowed by the Dark One, Moridin, or Shaidar Haran - it's the Pattern.
Wilson Grooms
2180. Tektonica
Along this Rand/Moridan thread.....

OK, Rand drew the TP through Moridan. Moridan has permission to use the TP and the DO probably doesn't know that Rand managed to access it. The DO may not have a clue that the two are even linked.

This link is what we should be focusing on, INMO. (Hey, I used initials! Got it, thanks again.)

Will the link to Moridan continue to taint Rand and all he touches...the weather, the land, the food, his mood, etc.
Or is Rand stronger than Moridan???

If he stops using the TP and gets in touch with his reasons for saving the world, ala Tam, could Rand pull Moridan to the Light? Convert him, so to speak.

So you think this link will have a positive or negative effect on Tarmin Gaidon? Any effect at all?

And thanks Free, for your synopsis on the signing with BWS and the pix. I'm so jealous! Down here in the right hand corner of the country, we got nothin'...nada...no signing. I'm living vicariously.
T C
2181. Freelancer
Thewindrose@2175

Ok, I'm confused. If you are now calling him BWS, then you read the Q&A I submitted @2091 & 2092. Am I misunderstanding your question?

I don't think Moridin has any control over whether Rand grasps the True Power. Neither of them understand the workings of the connection between them. Yes, it is impossible for the result to be anything but bad if Rand draws upon that power anymore. As it is, we have to wait to learn if he retains that shadow aura. I sadly believe that he does, and requires more steps of returning to his original, more innocent nature, before he can truly be ready.
Tricia Irish
2182. Tektonica
Along this Rand/Moridan thread.....

OK, Rand drew the TP through Moridan. Moridan has permission to use the TP and the DO probably doesn't know that Rand managed to access it. The DO may not have a clue that the two are even linked.

This link is what we should be focusing on, INMO. (Hey, I used initials! Got it, thanks again.)

Will the link to Moridan continue to taint Rand and all he touches...the weather, the land, the food, his mood, etc.
Or is Rand stronger than Moridan???

If he stops using the TP and gets in touch with his reasons for saving the world, ala Tam, could Rand pull Moridan to the Light? Convert him, so to speak.

So you think this link will have a positive or negative effect on Tarmin Gaidon? Any effect at all?

And thanks Free, for your synopsis on the signing with BWS and the pix. I'm so jealous! Down here in the right hand corner of the country, we got nothin'...nada...no signing. I'm living vicariously.
Wilson Grooms
2183. alreadymadwithmanyposts
Tektonica @2123
I don't see any other way to resolve that short of Rand returning to the original plan of pounding the Seanchan to dust until they capitulate.

ysiamrich @2140
It is by no means definite that the Seanchan are better at nation building. Rand has successfully stabilized 3 nations, the same as the Seanchan. Only in Rand's case, 2 had been under the control of Forsaken, and the third had been in the throes of civil war.

Man-o-Manetheran @2144 etal
I myself believe the Seanchan version has been editted. I'd like to see an inventive way to resolve the seeming contradiction, but chances are good that Luthair or Ishy or both together between them corrupted the Seanchan Imperial version. After all, it is the only version that specifically states Rand will bow before the Crystal Throne. Furthermore, the Seanchan Imperial version states that Rand will fight the Last Battle on their behalf. Furyk Karede himself noted that it was unique in this aspect. The versions previously found on the Seanchan homeland prior to Luthair's arrival, as well as the versions found in the Westlands all omit this detail. As for Luthair himself, the man betrayed the Aes Sedai who gave him the a'dam. Such a man would absolutely stoop to editting the prophecies so as to elevate his heirs.

First Selector @2148
Given how much of a stickler for status and hierarchy the Seanchan are, I don't see how Rand could bow to the Empress and retain a shred of authority. If they somehow get Rand to swear to serve them, they will enforce it if they have to use one of those collars. Matter of fact, I'm beginning to suspect that's what the Seanchan will try next.

metacarolyn @2149
I was given to understand the Oath Rod works on practically anyone who is holding it and swearing Oaths while Spirit is being channeled into it. It doesn't have to be the one holding the Rod to channel spirit. Somebody else could channel and the Oaths would still be binding on the one holding the Rod.

Freelancer @2150
A face flashed before his eyes just before the True Power filled him. It's generally a given that Rand gained access to it by way of Moridin. Who's to say Moridin did not deliberately give Rand access to the True Power? After all, Moridin by now feels whatever Rand feels. His left hand feels numb, the exact same hand Rand no longer has.

schrodinger @2151
The problem with being subordinate to the Seanchan is that they will demand to collar every marath'damane in sight. And the "Black-souled Tempests" as well. This is where their first set of negotiations failed. Rand won't budge, and I don't see the series as a whole having Rand bow on this detail.

re:the Signing
Any chance of BWS crossing the Pacific for a signing?
Tess Laird
2184. thewindrose
Freelancer, not to pry, but I was just wondering which were your own questions - but not a big deal:)
And way to go in getting many questions answered, that was totally 'thinking on your feet'!!

If I was Brandon, I would demand to hop the pond(I've a great love for traveling).
Wilson Grooms
2185. yt99
@ tyrannasam #2178

Actually, I've always thought the Seanchan versions of the Prophecies of the Dragon were edited for propaganda purposes. Every Seanchan POV or comment we have heard has mentioned that the prophecies on this side of the world are wrong because they don't mention the Dragon serving the Crystal Throne.

Wouldn't the simplest answer just be that with the totalitarian nature of the Seanchan empire, they just change all of the copies to make the Dragon subservient to the Empress, burn any that don't mention the Crystal Throne being superior even to the Dragon Reborn, and kill anyone who says differently?
T C
2186. Freelancer
HumbleReader@2177

Or it means that, due to the crossed balefire streams of different Powers, they have a built-in link which does not behave according to existing rules.


YT99@2179

Welcome to the madness. That's a new theory. Well, actually, not so much. Comments 55, 85, 99, 190, 282, 721, 724, 893, 1330 & many more (I didn't want to spend more than 2 minutes searching)

Tektonica@2182

It's always good to have a vicarious experience with a novel. I know a lady who once had a novel experience with a vicar, not quite so good.


amw@2183

Yeah, do you really believe that the Nae'blis up and said, "Hey, Lews buddy, have a taste, embrace the horror"? You can't push a Power on somebody through a link; you can, however draw on it through one.
T C
2187. Freelancer
yt99@2185

Now that one I agree with wholeheartedly. Doesn't any totalitarian hegemony revise history and other writings to support their own agenda and status? Why, yes they do. And it would be one more bit of geo-historical behavior that Jordan modelled into his awesome world.
R B
2188. MasterAlThor
bad_platypus

He's a semi-aquatic, egg-laying mammal of action...

Doobie, Doobie, Doo ba Doobie, Doobie Doo ba
Tricia Irish
2189. Tektonica
Just realized I used the wrong initials back up i 2182...hahaha...trying to be so cool....IMHO...sorry.
Wilson Grooms
2190. kab1
I'm never going to get caught up on all the posts, but I did read Free's Q and A of the book signing and I just wanted to say thanks so much for asking all the questions and posting the answers, and of course that I'm jealous! BWS seems like an amazing person, Harriet choose wisely. I really wish I could have made it a signing this year. I don't care how far I have to drive next year, I'm going!

@Free, did you see in the the SL reports on Dragomount that someone asked if Rand used compulsion on Tuon? (of course BWS said no) made me laugh.

I think the answer I was most intrigued with was "Sulin", I can't wait for ToM! Thanks again. Hopefully I can keep up with the comments better when we start the reread again.

Also wanted to say that I was right about Hinderstrap- of course BWS didn't make that up, RJ wrote it. I'm glad that he said all of the scenes were RJ ideas in form, I figured that's the way it was, BWS doesn't seem like he would just write in parts that weren't in RJ script (even if it was a rough draft).

I'd also like to echo that I really like books 7-11, all the new characters, subplots, and length really got me into the world. I really liked WH.

Concerning Messana, I'd agree with Free's interpretation that when Brandon said "Egwene's not incorrect" he meant he wondering if Messana was still in tower and defeated the oath rod. This was my first interpretation of his statement as well. I'd also like to add (this may have been mentioned above) that I think it would be easy for Messana to reswear on the oath rod that she is "not a darkfriend" or "black ajah" as she's not, she doesn't consider herself to be either- she's one of the Chosen.

On a side note- I would think that the whole darkfriend thing would be an out any black sisters as well who do not think of themselves as simple darkfriends, but rather something more, as they are black AS, and we know how highly some of these AS view themselves. Mind you I don't think that this "out" will actually be used in the plot of the book as I don't think RJ viewed it this way.

Okay I've clearly begun to ramble....
Tricia Irish
2191. Tektonica
Freelancer@2186

A vicar? No. But the vicar's son.......not so bad! It was a long time ago.....
You are very clever.
Eva Casillas
2192. EvaLou
Isilel @ 2119

I had the same idea about Demandred being in Shara and crossing the Aiel Waste. That makes more sense to me than him being in Murandy. I wonder if Aviendha will come across some evidence of this while out there and warn Rand?

And thanks to those who responded to my question about Balwer. I never thought he was Demandred, but I still think he might be a darkfriend. Although, I don't want that to be true. I just can't figure out how he would know that those boxes were fake. Sure, he must have questioned any Shaido prisoner with knowledge about them. But none of them should have known they were fake either. The boxes appeared to work at least once to open gateways, and I don't remember reading that the Shaido Wise Ones ever figured out that they were fake. So, again, that just seems fishy to me.
Eva Casillas
2193. EvaLou
@ 2188 Great, thanks. Now I'll have tune stuck in my head all night.
Barry T
2194. blindillusion
Man-0-Manetheran@2166
Whether Rand used Moridin as a ter'angreal or Moridin reacted to the a'dam through the bond is a fine point. What is significant is this BOND. These guys have been reincarnated thousands of times, but this is NEW.

::nods head:: Yep, I'd have to say this should be an important theme we should all be looking for in the novels. The NEW occurrences. Such as:

~ Fain - obviously important

~ The Seanchan - I kinda put them here for the Ogier. I think they're going to prove to be very important.

~ Verin - handing the Light a list of not only Black Ajah, but also Darkfriends. I for one think Egwene is doing the world some serious damage if she only focuses on the BA.

~ The link, of course, and all that goes with it.

~ Shaidar Haran - I don't know if we can say for certain, but this is possibly the first time the DO has has an avatar loose in the World. Just think if he finds a way to break his connection to Shayol Ghul. ~It'd be interesting if he killed Fain and used the dagger's evil to break his tie to the DO = My looney theory of the day.

~~So, is anyone else getting a Harry Potter/The Dark Lord vibe from the link between Rand and Moirdin? Perhaps it was a one shot deal and now that Moirdin knows it's possible for Rand to channel the TP through their link he's going to be more careful to close that link.

And wouldn't it suck if Rand suddenly wants him some TP like an addict wants their drug of choice?

@MasterAlThor and Freelancer ~ Hmm, no skateboarding huh? How's about a nice game of chess?

~ And Free, I'm 6'0" and 28...and spent over 4 years as an F16 Crew Chief. Bring of the vert =). ~~Oh yes, and best all around skater I know personally...because he can still kick my ass...is 41, about 3 inches taller than me and has a love of fine Italian food/wine. I'd have to say he was my first mentor...great guy \m/ ~~slice of life done....
R B
2195. MasterAlThor
EvaLou....

Your welcome...anything to help.
R B
2196. MasterAlThor
Blindillusion....

Yes a game of chess would be nice.

Freelancer....

I am 6'3" 275lbs. No way I am getting on a skateboard, so I am there with you on that one.
Eva Casillas
2197. EvaLou
blindillusion@2194

Yes, Harry Potter was the reference I used when describing that scene to my husband! Then he immediately connected it to the Ghostbusters idea that the two streams should never touch.

The most interesting comment to me between Moridin and Rand was when Moridin wonders what would happen if one of them dies. Hmmmm. Maybe Moridin won't let Rand die now for fear of losing his own life.
Barry T
2198. blindillusion
EvaLou@2197 ~ Your second comment also ties into the theory of some people that Rand will die but somehow his soul will pass into Moridin's body. I think it's an interesting theory and anything that keeps Rand from the Grave is a good thing to me.

~~As to what happens to Moridin's soul? Maybe it finally gives up and tells the DO to, "Stuff it."
Barry T
2199. blindillusion
MasterAlThor@2196

I get you. After all, the last time I played football I broke my collar bone...I still shiver when someone passes me a ball. A greater pain I've never known...and I've faceplanted off the side of a half-pipe.

As for basketball ~~ Umm, well, about the best I can say is that I've never been hurt playing basketball.
Wilson Grooms
2200. somewheresouth
I really enjoyed the book and got a bit sad thinking RJ would have really enjoyed writing it. You can tell BS did:)

In terms of Mat being off, I have a looney theory!:

Mat seems off because instead of being "awesome-but-no-one-appreciates-it-mostly", he's being obviously not awesome: whingy& not paying enough attention to danger& his band etc. And he's also acting a lot more like he did when he had the SL dagger. Maybe this is Not Coincidental? Mat thinks to himself at some point that "he hadn't thought about the dagger in a long time" and sort of starts having a lust interlude over it again. Someone else (I think maybe Egwene) thinks that anything Sheriam did was sus, IN PARTICULAR healing Mat of the SL taint. I thought this was a red herring. What if it's not? What if the dagger is baaack? In that case Mat probably has to toast Fain in Caemlyn before he goes to the tower of Ghenjei.

And Verin gives him a letter and tells him to wait in Caemlyn. I reckon she's set him up to toast Fain (especially after all his comments that he thinks Fain is still after him, with gholam in tow). Thankfully, that will be end of Fain and we can all be happy.

Discuss? :)

ha ha. Saidar is a verb now!

I'm just hoping Perrin finds the song quickly so all the Domani don't starve. That was heartwrenching. (Hang on, who is supposed to find the song? I always thought it was Perrin but after Egwene's need walk am not so sure. Maybe she and Hopper lead him to it. And then Rand and Loial sing it?)

I thought Rand was a readable character again in this book. I haven't enjoyed his POVs so much since TEOTW. Almost cried every time he talked about getting the shit kicked out of him so much it didn't matter anymore.

I liked the zombies:)

thanks RJ, BS, Leigh, Jason&all.

I spent most of last wednesday (when I finished) going "wow,wow,wow, frakking wow"

...then hopped on here and tried to read all the comments, but am still only up to about 300. Think this will keep me busy until the next one:D

xx
Thomas Keith
2201. insectoid
And now, as promised, my embarassing pictures. :) Believe it or not, I've never used Flickr before now.


My mom insisted on taking this shot in front of the TGS window display at the bookstore.


Here's me with Brandon. He said that he always appreciates Asha'man attending signings. ;)


My mom (Babokathy) with Brandon. Her only question concerned the whereabouts of Marsh at the end of Mistborn 3 (which Free and I turned into a looney theory about Shaidar Haran).


Me standing outside with a balding, bearded guy you all know as Freelancer.

Welcome to the 23rd Century.
Wilson Grooms
2202. stargazer
Back to the discussion about Tuon defeating Rand's ta'veren-ness, I think the right answer was given by Chriscot all the way back up at comment #659. Tuon didn't defeat Rand's pull, she did exactly what he (and the Pattern) needed her to do. She had to say no to him, and then launch the attack on the White Tower at precisely the right time to take out Elaida, let Egwene have her Crowning Moment of Awesome, and re-unite the Aes Sedai under someone who we know will be cross with Rand at first, but will eventually do the right thing and get along before Tarmon Gai'don comes down the line.

If Tuon had said yes to Rand, then he gets the Seanchan but is stuck with Elaida and a split tower, and potentially open warfare between the two camps of Aes Sedai. Not good at all... Yeah, sure, he wants her to submit to him then, but in the immortal words of the Stones, "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need".
Eva Casillas
2203. EvaLou
blindillusion@2198

I saw that theory about some kind of merger between Rand and Moridin. I don't like the idea really. I don't want the hero to end up in a villain's body or any way connected with evil, even if it means that Rand gets to live after the LB. But I do think the link with Moridin will somehow save Rand's life at some point (which it has already, in a way).

I do think Rand will live after the Last Battle, though, because he is the Messiah figure. He will die then live again. Maybe Nyn will heal death, or maybe a stream of balefire will reverse time. Whatever it is, I just don't want it to be a permanent link with Moridin. Ug.
Eva Casillas
2204. EvaLou
somewheresouth @2200

I know what you mean. I'm still reading the early comments too. :D
Lindy Brown
2205. lbrown
@ 2087. MasterAlThor
We all care.

Ahhhh!

Do you know what those bacon bar pastry things are? Someone from Portland mentioned them in a different post? Are they Maple Bacon Bars??? I am not sure.

Bacon bar pastry? No, I'm afraid I can't help you there. I've never heard of them.

Thank you, insectoid and Freelancer for your comments about the San Diego signing. I can't believe Brandon answered all those questions for you, Freelancer. That's really awesome.

It sounds like I was correct about my initial impression after reading the book that all the scenes were indeed RJ's.
Noneo Yourbusiness
2206. Longtimefan
The Maple Bacon Bar is available at Voodoo Doughnuts which is only 7 blocks away from a Powell's Bookstore but sadly not the one that will be hosting the Signing on Thursday.

Great job Freelancer and insectoid for the Q and A and Photos from the San Diego Signing.

I will not be going out to Cedar Hills. Work and such (sigh).
Carolyn Goodwin
2207. metacarolyn
alreadymad@2183: The person holding the oath rod doesn't have to be the one channeling, but they do have to be a channeler. I think this comes up in KoD or TGS when someone mentions they can't use the rod on warders. Also discussed in the wotfaq.
T C
2208. Freelancer
blindillusion

Best skater I knew personally? I would have a hard time choosing among three: Stacy, Tony, or Skitch. I still think Stacy totally diss'd Skitch by leaving him out of the movie. My younger (only 45) brother still skates several days a week, but he's got Peter Pan syndrome. He's still living in 1979.

In reference to your other offer @2194, 1461.


lbrown@2205

And everyone else, Honor to serve. If I can tell a short story...

When I heard two years ago that Brandon was "the guy", I went and bought Elantris. There was no question in my mind that Harriet had done right. I went on Brandon's website, sent him an email of encouragement and my impressions of Elantris. He sent a reply, not a form "thank you for reading", but he specifically responded to the things I had to say, and did so as if we'd talked about such things many times before. Needless to say, I was extremely impressed.

The next day, another email came from him. This one was an autogenerated email about the upcoming Hero of Ages tour stop in San Diego (same place, Mysterious Galaxy). Well, I had to go, though I'd never gone to a book signing before. He read from the book (a stirring chapter about Ten-Soon preparing for his trial), took Q&A, and spoke quite personally with each person who brought him a book to sign. He made sure that it was he who accomodated the fans, not the other way around.

So, having had that experience, I had a clue what to expect. My only minor point of trepidation was whether his expanded fame had impacted him. Well, the Dragonmount Storm Leader reports, his own blog, and other interviews prove that he is the same humble, engaging guy.

So I had confidence walking in there with 2-1/2 pages worth of your questions. I still didn't expect that he'd give me extra time, that I'd have to choose carefully which questions to ask. But, like Mat, he made a promise that he'd hear every question I wanted to ask, and he did exactly that.

I felt slightly guilty trying to take up more of his time than others, but I stayed back while he blasted through signing store stock books (not just TGS, but Warbreaker, Alcatraz, and Mistborn volumes as well) until he waved at me to keep asking each time.

Finally, he didn't answer all of those questions for me, but for us. I made it clear that the questions came from among the rabid crowd of Leigh Butler addicts on TOR, and even named many of the top commenters, with insectoid's help (thanks, Birgit! That list came in handy) Anyway, you could not ask for someone more pleasant to deal with, or more interested in his fans. Brandon Sanderson is MOA.
Peter Leventis
2209. PL1
Further to Stargazer @2202 and others @2110, 2120, 2122

The prophesy says that the Dragon "will bind the nine moons to serve him". Semantics is really important in Randland. If Tuon had agreed then, this would not have fulfilled the prophesy as she was not yet Empress (and the Daughter of the Nine Moons != Nine Moons). Remember, Tuon deliberately delayed becoming the Empress (i.e. the Nine Moons) until after meeting with Rand. The alliance/binding/whatever between the Dragon and Seanchan (if brokered by 4Tuona) had to await her becoming the Empress. And I guess all those other events mentioned by Stargazer above had to happen.
Lindy Brown
2210. lbrown
@ 2206. Longtimefan
The Maple Bacon Bar is available at Voodoo Doughnuts which is only 7 blocks away from a Powell's Bookstore but sadly not the one that will be hosting the Signing on Thursday.

Thanks for the info. Does it really have bacon in it?
Alice A
2211. Wetlandernw
Freelancer, first I want to thank you again for such a great report on the signing yesterday. I also appreciate your willingness to stay until everyone was done, even though you were third in line, so that you could get our questions answered. Your commitment on our behalf is impressive. I'm sure it was a hardship to stay and talk with Brandon afterwards, too...! ;)

The information on the RAFO business was pretty cool, and I know I hadn't read that in any of the Storm Leader reports. Did he give you the + indicator on which were "real" RAFOs and which were left for discussion purposes? Lots of food for thought (and discussion, of course) in all that. And lots of RAFOs. Probably not a lot more than we expected.

*Verin... I'm betting we'll find out more of her activities in ToM, so not surprised about that one.
*Narishma... Hmmm. That creates even more food for thought. What's still to come?
*Elaida... Oy. Outriggers??? Involving Elaida??? Or would this be the Mat/Tuon story? That's my guess. Wonder if that means we won't see anything of her in the next 2 books.
*Tam... a prequel AND an outrigger? Wow. ;)
*"Preview" of Galad & Perrin, Tam's reveal... I'm glad to hear it's intentional, that it wasn't just a miss in the editing. But now I'm really curious as to why they wanted it in. Hmmmm. ::think, think, think:: I got nuthin. Will ponder.
*Cadsuane & Min's vision of teaching Rand & Asha'man... Okay, now I'm really looking forward to following this plot! I loved the bit where Tam put Cadsuane in her place, and she may need more, but I have a certain admiration (and a little sympathy) for her in a way. ::ducks into bunker:: It will be interesting to see what she still has to teach all the Asha'man!
*Graendal... Oh, boy. Here we go again. On this one, I'm perfectly content to RAFO - the ramifications get too complicated! And I've always felt that way about Asmodean's killer anyway.
*Rand/Moridin/TP... I still think Rand drew it through Moridin, without the consent of either Moridin or the DO. I'm guessing without the knowledge of either, although I'm not sure about M. Pretty sure the DO doesn't know, unless Moridin knows and decides to tell. So glad to hear that it wasn't a plot of the DO. I didn't think so, but it's nice to have it confirmed.
*Prophecy... Good answer. I'd really hate to have this definitively answered at this point! ;)
*Tuon/Fortuona - HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ::does victory dance:: Told ya so. No way was that unplanned from the distant past. Hah!
*Seanchan, ter'angreal, and the assassins rings... Did Semi make them, or did she find a bunch of them in a stasis box? Possible they were left from before the finalization of the Paendrag conquest, but I'm guessing the stasis box. I do think it's possible Semi made them, though, in spite of someone's certainty that none of the Forsaken can make them. IIRC, ter'angreal are easier to make than angreal or sa'angreal. If she knew how they worked back in the AOL, there's nothing (so far) to say she couldn't duplicate them for the Seanchan.
*Sulin. Well. Can't wait to see what this one's all about! So, guys, take that off the "errata" list.

LOVE LOVE LOVE the knowledge that all the scenes were RJ's. I've had a personal problem with a lot of the ragging on BWS for "messing things up" according to a bunch of readers (not too many of whom are left on here by now, I guess). Great vindication, though.

Freelancer, good work. Thanks again. This is just way too much fun. :-) Hope this wasn't too incoherent. It's getting late.
Barry T
2212. blindillusion
Freelancer@2208

Dude, who are you and when can I read your autobiography?

You knew Randy Rhoads? You knew some of the guys I studied...and well...wanted to BE...for at least for part of my childhood.

Well, should the opportunity ever arise, I'd like to shake your hand. Former Military. Knowledgable of all things cool. But then, some of the greatest stories I've heard in my life have come from sitting across the bar from someone and just listening. So, as for your post @1461 in RE: to my post @2194:

I was going to mention the ~Brandy~ from Winternight, but there were two reasons not to.

1) After Birgit identified me as the most verbosest commentor, I couldn't miss the chance to send a 1-word comment.

2) Giving only a partial answer also lowers my guru factor.

A two-fer, and it isn't Tuesday.

Sure, we can get together and play chess and drink brandy any old time ya want. If only for the stories because I'm quite sure you'd kick my ass at chess.

And please, give my respect to your brother for me. I can only hope to still be able to get on a board at 45.

As for the questions I'd like to extend my thanks for asking them for all of us as well. I think tomorrow I'm going to try to sludge through the Dragonmount Forum for questions asked at the signings that didn't make the 'News' page. ::sigh:: It's going to be dreadful...=)
Barry T
2213. blindillusion
Wetlandernw@2211

If I read Freelancer's assessment correctly regarding the ring ter'angrea it would appear the Seachan found a cache of the things.

And I would doubt Semi would have anything to do with them as it seems through the reading that the Bloodknives are a fairly established organization within the Seanchan army.
T C
2214. Freelancer
Wetlandernw

Aww, shucks, I'm sitting here blushing.

Yes, where I marked a RAFO+, it either meant that it was possible material for an outrigger story, or that even though there isn't likely to be more information presented in the final books, he didn't want to squelch fertile discussions.

For Tam, I don't know if it's two different things. I got the impression from something he said that there is an outline dedicated to his life story, which possibly means from well before the WoT timeline to after it.

For Elaida, the sense I had was that an outline for life in the Seanchan empire after the WoT timeline. Now I cannot imagine that damane will still be leashed by story's end, but da'covale may still be property. Imagine a stilled Elaida fetching the Prince's tabac. ::HOWL::

On Seanchan prophecy, I hesitate to add this, because it isn't solid. But I read people moderately well, and the expression Brandon gave me when I asked if Ishamael had a hand in it getting corrupted, well, it's good he went into writing and not professional poker. If I were a betting man, he confirmed not only that the Seanchan version of the prophecies had been altered, but that Ishamael did indeed figure into it somewhere. Now, whether that started before Luthair Paendrag sailed across the Aryth Ocean or not, I cannot say. And, I could have been bluffed.

On the Bloodknife ter'angreal rings. I get the sense that the Bloodknives have existed for more than two years. Those are specialized ninja-like shadow assassins. You have to be raised to that kind of game, so my thinking is that those rings are also Ishamael's find from one of his periods of freedom.
T C
2215. Freelancer
blindillusion@2213

I'm just this guy, see? Seriously, growing up in the San Fernando Valley in the 60s and 70s, it meant almost limitless possibilities. I had an unusual amount of freedom in my late teens, a car and a couple of connections. It doesn't make me special, it makes me grateful. Many I could name didn't get from there to here, and I tried very hard to self-destruct at times. The invincibility of youth, it nearly killed me more than once.

1461 wasn't a comment number. It's a rating, or it was 17 years ago when I last had time for it.
Ilya Surdin
2216. Surdin
Gah, I was sure there was going to be a new re-read post yesterday.
Maiane Bakroeva
2217. Isilel
Folks, I really don't see how Rand channeling TP could be anything else _but_ Shadow's plot, whether DO gave Rand permission to channel TP or not. We don't even know what is involved in such permission, BTW, maybe it can only be bestowed at SG.
And frankly, I am surprised that you want the first clever Shadow plot since forever to turn out to be a coincidence.

Consider this:

Particular care has been taken to discredit Cadsuane. Why bother, if Rand was to be taken to SG?

The Choedan Kal access key was left behind. Again, why? If it is the tool for world destruction that has to be wielded by Rand, would it not be logical to have both in the same place?
Also, if Rand could be just captured and turned, why all the previous pussy-footing?

We were flat-out told that the Forsaken are predictable and that the DO actually prizes this quality of theirs above everything else. Well, Semi's actions were very predictable. She had to avenge herself to restore her self-image.

The one very interesting answer to Freelancer's excellent questionnaire is that Seanchan can only make the a'dam, BTW.
So, who made copies of the Domination Band? Which is made of cuendillar, BTW, that the Seanchan also don't know how to produce. Hm...

Another interesting thing is that the drawbacks to DB as described by Moggy wouldn't really be significant for Seanchan or any well-structured organization of female channelers (such as WT), where the bracelets could be passed around all the time, so that the feedback loop that would allow the male channeler some manner of control could never grow. So, why was DB abandoned? Why didn't Ishy give it to Seanchan? Why does it feel evil, when a'dam doesn't?

Oh, and another possible question for a Q@A with BWS, if anybody else here goes - how is it that Seanchan channelers retained the skill of using the Portal Stones for longer than they did Travelling, when it requires more power? Also, why didn't they use the Stones to journey across the Ocean, as well as for bringing exotic beasts from parallel worlds?
Wilson Grooms
2218. alreadymadwithportalstone
Using the Portal Stones to travel has serious limitations. Rand, already one of the more powerful channelers was barely strong enough to carry his contingent to Rhuidean. With an angreal. None of the Seanchan channelers are anywhere near as strong as this. In addition they would need the symbol for their destination. And I don't remember the Power requirements for either using Portal Stones or Travelling ever being compared, but using the Portal Stones requires less skill. Just channel into the requisite icons. Whereas Travelling requires knowledge of the destination, knowledge of the point of origination...etc.

Looney theory:
The domination band feels evil because the cuendillar in it has a tendency to soak up the Taint passing through the male channeler when he channels Saidin.
Matthew Smith
2219. blocksmith
Freelancer

Thanks for the great questions to BWS and follow-up posts. You are quite the focus for yesterday/today and deservedly so. Also, while I don't totally agree with your assessment of which scenario below is more likely, you very much helped to maintain the flow of this idea in the right direction (from my standpoint anyway).

Freelancer@2165, WesS@2167, Gagecreedlives@2169, and insectoid@2172

While the viewpoints differ on whether or not Rand's TP channeling was intended or unintended, I think this can be safely stated. If TP channeling by Rand (yes...through Moridin) without the DO's permission was not the intended occurrence, than is Leigh's statement "nothing good will come of this" true? I conjecture not necessarily. Let me rephrase...

If the plan all along was to force Rand to use the TP through Moridin, then this event was manipulated to benefit the DO. And,clearly, this would not be a good thing.

If the plan was to capture Rand and either:

A)the DO was unaware of Rand's connection to Moridin which allowed him to use the TP through Moridin without needing specific permission from the DO to do so; or
B)Moridin allowed Rand to use the link without clearing this through the DO because of his own personal concern as to what the consequence to himself would be if Rand was captured and bound.

Therefore, if truly an unintended consequence, I would argue it is not necessarily a bad thing. Either the DO or Moridin or both were unaware that Rand could channel the TP through Moridin and this action, therefore, not anticipated. Is it also possible they (at least the DO) remain unaware?

I would add that, based on my reading of the comments herein, the overwhelming opinion of commenters who have weighed in on this subject is that this ability to tap the TP will be critical in the sealing/recreating the DO's prison.

Along a dis-similar line of thought which somewhat helps my argument, we are assuming that SH was acting through direction by the DO, Moridin, or both. What if SH was acting on his own because capturing and binding Rand would give him the freedom from SG that he has been seeking since 5 or 6 books ago and the tapping of the TP was the unintended consequence of that action?

Final note sorry for the Wall O'Text...sometimes you get going and just can't stop yourself.
Bouke de Boer
2220. Bouke
Hundreds of new posts, timeconsuming it do be. Luckily, many of the points I was about to make while reading the first of them are already discussed by now. Timesaving it do be.

Thus, only a few new remarks at this point!

Demandred: depending on how far one stretches the definition of "on-screen", King Roedran has been mentioned a few times in various books, so he just might have to be discarded as a candidate. Which leaves only Shara as a significant position for Demandred to be. Apart from the BT, of course (somehow I don't see him parading around with the Borderlanders, without absolutely anyone knowing about it. Though Graendal entertains a small thought in that direction).

Resisting ta'veren: With al the sul'dam around, it would probably be difficult for Tuon to embrace the Source without them noticing. However, the key factor here is that one has to focus on recognizing it. With the friggin' Dragon Reborn at point blank distance, feeling for the Source probably doesn't rank very high in the focussing department... Not fully debunked, IMO.

Domination Band: I'm confused, but where does it say that there actually were copies made? Didn't Nynaeve tell Egeanin to get rid of the thing, who didn't, which left the DB in possession of the Seanchan, allowing Semi to get her filthy scheming little hands on the blasted thing?

For now...
S Diller
2221. CuenDiller
I was just wondering...a lot of folks are saying that IF Noal was compulsed (?) by Greadal, (if she did die) it still would not have disappeared because it was done so long ago. BUT, wouldn't the fact that she did die (if it is a fact), and ripped out of the pattern, take any compulsion away no matter how long ago it was performed?
Bouke de Boer
2222. Bouke
Isilel @2217:
Your last remark about bringing the monsters back: I never thought of grolm coming from a parallel univarse. I just figured that Rand, Hurin and Loial visit a possible world where the Corenne happens earlier and the Seanchan win flat out, later to be wiped out by some serious Trolloc action.

Re: use of TP. I agree with all of you who say that Rand's use of the TP was not intended by the DO / his Forsaken chummies. In any case, Leigh is right about the end result: nothing good will come of this.
Scenario A) Semi succeeds, Rand is taken to SG. "I win again, Lews Therin..."
Scenario B) All plays out as in the book, the TP gets its first hooks in addiction-prone Rand. Evil galore, "I win again, Lews Therin..."

The fact that the link between Moridin and Rand is something that both of them don't know how to explain leads me to believe that there is no way anyone in the DO's camp could have anticipated that Rand would reach for and actually get his hands on the TP.

PS Another long post. Damn, but I can't seem to get my thoughts into sentences that are of the short kind!
Tricia Irish
2223. Tektonica
Another day, another 30 posts overnight to catch up on.....

Evalou@2197 and 2203

@ Rand/Moridan dying: interesting little twist. What would happen to Mori if Rand died? Is that motivation enough for him to keep Rand alive, merge completely with him, try to turn him or be turned? And what about that sword wound for Ishy, Bel'al at Falme? (I'm losin' it, can't remember who it was! yikes.) Wonder if Rand's wounds are part of why Mori is so tired and in such pain. Could he fix that for Rand?

Don't blame you for not liking Rand in Mori's body....creepy, but I do think there's some kind of NEW merger happening that hasn't happened in past lives before. Could Moridan's soul just quit or does the DO take it? Then it's just an empty body.

Would Rand still be the Dragon? Would he still be able to channel?

Somehweresouth@2200

Would so love to see Mat toast Fain in Caemlyn! Wonder if Rand's wound from the dagger would then get healed?

Insectoid@2203

Loved Marsh as SH!! lol. Definite similarities.

Great pix too. Nice to put faces to the names. You guys make good Ashamen...even in a necktie. BTW, your mom doesn't look any older than you! Ageless face....ummmm.
Thank you!
Tricia Irish
2224. Tektonica
Another day, another 30 posts overnight to catch up on.....

Evalou@2197 and 2203

@ Rand/Moridan dying: interesting little twist. What would happen to Mori if Rand died? Is that motivation enough for him to keep Rand alive, merge completely with him, try to turn him or be turned? And what about that sword wound for Ishy, Bel'al at Falme? (I'm losin' it, can't remember who it was! yikes.) Wonder if Rand's wounds are part of why Mori is so tired and in such pain. Could he fix that for Rand?

Don't blame you for not liking Rand in Mori's body....creepy, but I do think there's some kind of NEW merger happening that hasn't happened in past lives before. Could Moridan's soul just quit or does the DO take it? Then it's just an empty body.

Would Rand still be the Dragon? Would he still be able to channel?

Somehweresouth@2200

Would so love to see Mat toast Fain in Caemlyn! Wonder if Rand's wound from the dagger would then get healed?

Insectoid@2203

Loved Marsh as SH!! lol. Definite similarities.

Great pix too. Nice to put faces to the names. You guys make good Ashamen...even in a necktie. BTW, your mom doesn't look any older than you! Ageless face....ummmm.
Thank you!
Tricia Irish
2225. Tektonica
How did that happen twice? How do I get rid of one? Sorry.
Maiane Bakroeva
2226. Isilel
AMW, Bouke:

That the Seanchan exotic animals are from the parallel worlds and were brought by channelers via Portal Stones to fight the Shadowspawn infestation after the Sealing is flat out stated in the White Book of Ugly Art. So, yes, they were powerful enough to bring over big beasts such as to'raken et al.

And we don't know how "simple" or otherwise the Portal Stones are to operate. Rand did so instinctively, probably tapping into LTT's skills - but he did a lot of things that way at first, including Skimming, warding and eventually Travelling, so it is not an indication.

Verin wasn't powerful enough to use a Portal Stone, supposedly, but she was strong enough to Travel.

It is a question that seriously bugs me - if women too weak to Travel could link to do so or use an angreal, how on earth could it have been forgotten? Particularly considering survival advantages of it.
Moreover, how could it have been forgotten _before_ the much more esoteric and less useful art of operating the Portal Stones was?

What is even more confusing is that when a couple of mad male channelers advance on Paaran Disen in the Columns vision in TSR, AS speak like they have days before the madmen arrive and nobody considers the likelyhood of them just Travelling/Skimming in. And those men were definitely powerful enough to Travel, given that one of them has already obliterated a huge city on his own.

There is some mystery there, IMHO. Did Travelling and Skimming become impossible at some point after the Sealing? Could it even be the "small thing" that will have big significance?

Re: what DO could or couldn't anticipate, didn't the FS say how upredictable DO's knowledge was?

There is no way that Choedan Kal would have been so blatantly left behind if DO/SH truly intended to bring Rand to SG, IMHO. As seen in the "Veins of Gold" it was _the_ Creation-destrying tool in the hands of the DR.
Captain Hammer
2227. Randalator
Woah, you guys, stop with the wordiness. I have trouble keeping up. Seriously, I think I can hear my brain panting.

Also, I'm trying to suppress my monthly correct-spelling-of-major-characters-places-items-and-events rant ... gnnnnnnnnnnnnhrruhhhrrg ... MoridinMesaanaTarmonGai'donBe'lalNoal... *claps hand over mouth*

Where are my pills...?

*gulp*

I'm good now...
Kurt Lorey
2228. Shimrod
Anybody wonder if any character picked up Verin's angreal.

Egwene didn't recognize it, but I wonder if Meidani did? And, what exactly did Meidani do with Verin's body?
Bouke de Boer
2229. Bouke
Hm, some good points here, Isilel!

I'll have to get my hands on a copy of the BBOBA then. I'm beginning to feel as if I missed some major league info by not having read it yet...

The Travelling implications are definitely worth noticing. Hadn't thought of that before, and I can't think of any reason why these Talents would suddenly have been 'lost'.

The DO's knowledge is indeed unpredictable, but I always perceived that in a negative way. The way I see it, the DO gleans info from many sources (DF, Chosen, vermin etc.) but doesn't get it automatically from every source. Ergo, while he sometimes hits the jackpot and knows of stuff that the Chosen think he doesn't, it's more often the other way around where the DO is left in the dark (pun intended).

Lastly, the Choedan Kal being left behind does indeed pose some problems. But still: why the hell would Moridin / the DO / SH want to set Semi up in this way? The chances of Rand successfully escaping the Domination Band sans TP are practically nonexistent, and I still think that they didn't know about that.

Randalator @2227: my apologies. I'm totally with you on the name issue, though!
(Although I know for a fact that the Dutch edition of WoT changed Rand Al'Thor into Rhand Altor, so maybe therein lies a small problem for foreign commenters?)
Captain Hammer
2230. Randalator
Shimrod@2228

And, what exactly did Meidani do with Verin's body?

I just had a vision of a dinner in the White Tower.

Novice A: "I wonder where Verin Sedai is right now. I haven't seen her in quite some time."
Novice B: "Me neither."
Meidani: "Oh relax children, I've got a gut feeling Verin's around here somewhere hahahahaha, after all isn't there a little Verin in all of us? hahahaha... hahaha, in fact, you might even say we just ate Verin, and she's in our stomachs... right now! AHAHAHAHAHAHA!... Wait, scratch that one."

Too much TV...
Ron Garrison
2231. Man-0-Manetheran
Freelancer @2176

That settles it in my mind! I re-read that passage last night, and it is pretty clear that Rand was drawing the power. Of course he had to be channeling it through Moridin. That's also confirmed with the shadow-y face.
Valerie Varner
2232. VarnerV
I have SOOO not been able to keep up with the comments on this post. I think I am still reading at around post 250 or so. But - I did want to share my excitement about meeting Brandon Sanderson tonight at the signing in Los Angeles...!! I can't wait.
T C
2233. Freelancer
blocksmith@2219

If I could presume to speak for Leigh, I believe that her point in saying that nothing good can come from Rand channeling the True Power is that he is taking into himself an aspect of evil. And this is quite apparent, what with the shadow aura, his altered nature, etc. The fact that he becomes able to consider balefiring Tam al'Thor is all the evidence I need to know that having accessed the DO's juice was ungood.

Well, sometimes good overcomes evil, and Rand broke through on Dragonmount. Now, we've no clue yet how much bad stuff he has left to overcome, having touched the concentrated evil, but we can be quite confident that it is bad.

If you're convinced that Shaidar Haran prepared the scenario for Rand to be collared yet break free a few minutes later, and for Semirhage and Elza to be balefired employing a Power that nobody else on the planet knew Rand had an indirect link to, then OK, stick to your guns. I can't see it.

Yes, many have commented that using the True Power to help seal the prison makes sense. Leigh also stated that she didn't like this idea, (nor do I), because the good guys should never win by using the bad guy stuff, or it just really isn't a victory for the good. Whether Robert Jordan sees it that way remains to be seen. I have my money on no using concentrated evil to fight evil.


Cuendiller@2221

Noal was the victim of Ishamael, not Graendal. But the other answer is no. A weave such as Compulsion, once set in place, is tied off. It is no longer "connected" to the channeler. Then dying a natural death wouldn't remove the Compulsion, and only a balefire strong enough to have removed their thread to before the weave was channeled would remove it.

Tektonica@2223

When you comment under a registered (grey) name, there is an edit option alongside FLAG | BOOKMARK under your name. Then you can make the second comment look like a PS. We've all done it.

I'm no Asha'man, suit & tie are required for our church choir, and I didn't want to take the time to change before the signing.


Randalator@2227

You have me seeing John Astin's character from Night Court, a mostly harmless psychotic who's "Feeling muuuuch better now".

As for getting behind on the comments, make like a squashed tomato and catchup.
R B
2234. MasterAlThor
Freelancer....

Whoa man you have had a life.

Wait....did you say that was a ranking???

You mean you were actually ranked at chess???

Impressive, most impressive.

I will now just refer to you as Guru Freelancer.

And it would be an honor to play against you.

Does anyone know where Subwoofer is???

Methinks that he got a hold of one of those Seachan assassin rings and is plotting something nafarious against me for calling Canada the Blight.

If I do not return you guys know what happend.
Cheryl
2235. First Selector
Bouke@2220:
Re Demandred: It was my impression that ‘on-screen’ would mean actually having the character present in a scene. So I think King Roedran is a possibility for Demandred. (Though I’m leaning toward Shara.)
Re Domination Band: Its mentioned in KoD I believe that Semi has multiple DB’s with her when she comes to capture Rand.


Random note on Borderlanders: I don’t think any of the forsaken are with the Borderlanders. Wouldn’t Hurin smell them?

Randalator@2230: LOL love it

And forgot to say earlier: Thanks for the Q&A post Freelancer!
Captain Hammer
2236. Randalator
Freelancer@2233

Noal was the victim of Ishamael, not Graendal. But the other answer is no. A weave such as Compulsion, once set in place, is tied off. It is no longer "connected" to the channeler. Then dying a natural death wouldn't remove the Compulsion, and only a balefire strong enough to have removed their thread to before the weave was channeled would remove it.

And per BWS during a Q&A even all Choedan-Kal-ed you will get a backburning effect of about four days max.

As for getting behind on the comments, make like a squashed tomato and catchup.

Why don't you all make like an outlaw and hold up?
Maiane Bakroeva
2237. Isilel
Freelancer @2223:

for Semirhage and Elza to be balefired employing a Power that nobody else on the planet knew Rand had an indirect link to

I take issue with this. Moridin certainly could have figured that out and had a good reason to do so, given how he was affected by the link. He also could have shared his deductions with tDO _or_ tDO could have known it already, due to its memories of prior Ages.

And again, Moridin was the one who advised Rand to use balefire on the Forsaken, so...

Finally, explain to me this - if Rand's kidnapping by Semi was supposed to succeed, why did they blatantly left CK behind? And, for that matter, why bother to discredit Cadsuane?
These actions are far too deliberate to fit anything except an intentional plot to corrupt Rand, IMHO.
Captain Hammer
2238. Randalator
Isilel@2237

And again, Moridin was the one who advised Rand to use balefire on the Forsaken, so...

I still wonder if that was completely intentional or little-goody-two-shoes-seepage from Rand, just as Rand gets bad-boy-mojo from Moridin through the link. At least Moridin seemed to be a little dizzy during their conversation.
Wilson Grooms
2239. alreadymadwithsmelling
First Selector @ 2235

Hurin can't smell darkfriends, which is what the Forsaken are regardless of what airs they choose to put on.

I'll be at Vroman's tonight if anyone wants to say hi to the "other" one.
Bill Reamy
2240. BillinHI
EvaLou @2203: Doesn't one of the prophecies mentioned earlier in the series talk about the sun rising twice in one day? Sounds to me like that could be the result of a really big Balefire hit. I'm not too thrilled with the idea of Rand in Moridin's body, but it would be Rand's soul and not Moridin's, so it would be better than the alternative: no Rand.

Edit: Found it: from TGH: "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth.
Wilson Grooms
2241. alreadymadwithtravelloss
Isilel @2226
Operation of the Portal Stone is depicted and explained several times. All one has to do is channel into the appropriate icon/s. No specific weave. Strength comes in when one is carrying others along with him/her. Verin is strong enough to open a gateway but not strong enough to carry Rand and his party plus horses. And we can assume that most Seanchan damane are not as strong as she. Just strong enough to carry a sredit or grolm or two but not strong enough to bring an entire army. Even Rand came close to losing it just bringing a war party of Aiel plus pack horses and loot. And this was with an angreal.

For the Paaram Disen episode, I suppose they could form a rough estimate of how long it would take the men to get from one place to the other. Assuming they stop to destroy things along the way, even with Travelling.

As for the loss of these skills. I have my own pet theory that they were lost sometime while the White Tower was being formed. See my guess is that the older, more experienced ones did not want to form a White Tower just so they could lord it over other nations and rulers. They were holdovers from the traditional "servants of all" philosophy. The younger ones wanted to and would not be deterred, forced them to obey. As part of the conflict the older Aes Sedai simply did not pass on some of their knowledge to the upstarts.
Wilson Grooms
2242. little minion
re: Graendal's death

I re-read the prologue and there was a sentence there that would explain why Graendal didn't cut and run as soon as Ramshalan came calling: "She hated leaving her stronghold and her pets."

Freelancer@1171 has an excellent scenario for why she would have stayed instead of fleeing as soon as Ramshalan said the D-word. Graendal probably judged that Rand hadn't cottoned to her yet, decided that the best course of action was to Compel Ramshalan to send back to Rand for later use, and step up her plotting. Then POW!

Graendal is toast.
Stacy Berger
2243. anIceFan
For the first time ever I found myself begging for Egwene scenes. She was so awsome in this and her storyline so well done. I can't help but feel that we, and she, got robbed though by Elaida being carried off by Seanchan. I want(ed) a scene where Elaida aknowledges Egwene as the true Amyrlin.

Hated Rand throughout the book, but I guess we were supposed to. I was horrified at him stranglin Min, not so much about the balefire thing.

I will also be at Vromans tonight, 5 year old in tow.
T C
2244. Freelancer
MasterAlThor@2234

A chess rating is not that special, tens of thousands of people have them, quite a large number of them much higher than mine. I'm not especially talented at chess, I'm just determined and stubborn. Back in the early Compuserve days they held online tournaments, and ratings were generated from the results. I carried on with it for a time, found some shipmates to play here and there, and submitted transcripts to maintain the rating.

Wetlandernw calls herself OCD about some things. For me, the moment competition can be smelled, it's like making David Banner angry.


First Selector@2235

Semirhage had six sets, because Rand was bringing five Asha'man with him to the meeting with "Tuon".


::points at Randalator:: You mean Moridin says something he normally wouldn't? But that only happens when near a ta'veren.
James Jones
2245. jamesedjones
2240 BillinHI
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth."
Kinda screams apotheosis if you read it a via 're-creation'. At least the line came from RJ, so no one can accuse BWS if it happens that way. :P
Tess Laird
2246. thewindrose
Of interest from book signing 11/16/09(aproximation, things are a bit wonky on dates at the moment)Dragonmount
About the Seanchan Assassins:
15. Question: Is it an assumption that we haven’t seen the last of these individuals right here (I was pointing at the Seanchan assassins)?

15. Answer: There were five sent. We know one is dead. The other four, they may have lived or died through the assault, it was pretty chaotic, but they are expert warriors with ter’angreal focused on letting them hide.

15. Followup Question: How long does that affect last? Days?

15. Answer: That affect can be stretched if they take it off, for several weeks. It is going to kill them eventually. If they are wearing it straight, it’s not going to last long, a matter of days, but if they take it off they can hide for a matter of weeks. So, there are four unaccounted for, who have orders to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can.
Kurt Lorey
2247. Shimrod
The book addresses the longevity of the Bloodknives once their ter'angreal have been activated. IIRC, it isn't more than five days.

Still, that may mean four (or so) are still wandering around considering the apparent timeline in the chapters concerning the White Tower.

I doubt they would (or perhaps even could) take those ter'angreal off. Avoidance doesn't seem to be the Seanchan way.
Matthew Smith
2248. blocksmith
Freelancer@2223

My apologies for any confusion. I did not mean that Rand uses the TP and then becomes Ebeneezer Scrooge on Christmas morning. More, I was leaning toward at some opportune moment, the ability to tap and use the TP will disrupt/sabotage the DO's plans. I agree that Rand touching/channeling the TP is, to him, likely more like being exposed to a high dose of radiation...effects manifest over time.

I was always of the opinion that Rand's capture, torture, and escape at Dumai's Wells was a convoluted scheme to turn Rand against the AS and thus further divide the forces of light/expand chaos. In some ways, I can see this as being similar because it was certainly successful in making Rand less human and sowing dischord (at least making it worse) between Rand and those closest to him.

However, I am intrigued by the idea that this was not intentional. Since we know the DO is not omniscient, I prefer the idea that SH, DO, and Moridin did not see this one coming or, at least, that Moridin and SH may not be sympatico.
Maiane Bakroeva
2249. Isilel
AMW @2241:

I have my own pet theory that they were lost sometime while the White Tower was being formed.

Doesn't work IMHO, as Jonai encountered an AoL AS wandering around on foot a couple of decades after the fall Paaran Disen. She didn't Travel even after taking a few sa'angreal and neither did she offer to transport the da'shain anywhere. She did Heal all the sick, though, so it wasn't because she was callous.

The AS who joined the Jenn Aiel a few generations later also couldn't Travel, although they still retained amazing skills at warding and could either make or programm ter'angreal - such as the Crystal Columns.

so they could lord it over other nations and rulers.

You did notice how all the notable leaders of Light during the War of Shadow were AS, yes? And how they had a whole people devoted to serving them? And how LTT lived in a palace?

WT may have it's problems - a lot of them due to Ishy's efforts, but it isn't like AoL AS were self-effacing either.

Without the WT nations and rulers would have fought each other with OP and evil rogue channelers would have preyed on people - as in Seanchan, where Travelling was also somehow lost.

BTW, exotic beasts were brought over to Seanchan via the Portal Stones long before the a'dam was invented, so no damane.

As to "just" channeling into a symbol, again we don't know what is involved. Rand didn't yet see the weaves at that point, it was all subconscious for him.

No, IMHO loss of Travelling and Skimming was either a giant plot hole... or it has some significance.

BTW, another good question to ask at a signing:

Why didn't people hide in Portal Stone worlds to escape the Breaking?
Also, if the Ways could be created during the Breaking, why not secure refuges for some people?
Guillaume Bergeron
2250. Nightbaron
One of the reasons why Traveling/Skimming stopped being used during the Breaking and the ensuing years might be that the world was changing too much too fast, and it stopped being reliable.

I could imagine a few AS Traveling to somewhere they knew and opening a gateway into what was now an ocean, or somewhere lost in the mountains, etc...
Galen Brinn
2251. GatheringStorm
I give up...I can't keep up on this thread. Went out of town for the weekend and now I'm hopelessly behind.
Don Barkauskas
2252. bad_platypus
Freelancer@2162:
bad_platypus@2158

Yes, it goes without saying that a male sparker, or one who has already learned, would also suffer in the a'dam link with a damane. I was intentionally pointing out that ter'angreal which work on channelers would likely work on non-sparkers who've never channeled as well, thinking of Tuon and the Oath Rod, in answer to metacarolyn
Heh, actually reading the thing you're responding to? That's clever. I completely agree with your parallel and was merely quibbling about your wording, which implied that only learners would have that effect. I tend to be a little OCD about little details like that. :-)
Joseph Blaidd
2253. SteelBlaidd
I'm with Bouke@2222, no mater how it played out afterward, just geting the DB on Rand was a win for the DO. Moridin understands the tendancy of complicated plans to fail(the first arrow) so he hedges his bets and plays both sides of the table as mutch as he can, I doubt he would depend on a plan that requires a very unlikly chain of events to work.

On Demandred in Shara. I remember Rand thinking that even Shara is curently in the midst of its own civil war, so the odds of it being a good place for Demandred are slim.

Also anyone else ever notice that WoT can mean both Wheel of Time and Wall of Text ;-)
Jay McMahon
2254. maddergrey
Just my own humble theory on one thing in TGS. (I have read almost every one of these posts but I did skim a number of them so if I missed this I am sorry.)

The only thing I have is the strange funeral procession in Bandar Eben that Cadsuane and the others watch.(cant remember everyone there I let somebody borrow my book). MY theory is that is actually a future event instead of something from the past. Just seems a little different to me in the way it was described. Also weird for appearing every night at the same time I think. My theory would also make that Rand's funeral procession to the sea. (whether he is actually dead for real or not).

yep that's it
Ron Garrison
2255. Man-0-Manetheran
No one has posted for a bit about the Great Big Clue we all missed somewhere in Books 4-6. I'm still stumped, but I found this puzzlement regarding the DO:

“If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all.”

Portal Stones anyone? Unfortunately it's from Book 3, The Dragon Reborn, A World of Dreams
Galen Brinn
2256. GatheringStorm
Isilel said:
Why didn't people hide in Portal Stone worlds to escape the Breaking?


The probably did...on the other side of the world. That's where I think the Grolm, etc came from in Seanchan.
T C
2257. Freelancer
SteelBlaidd@2253

Wetlandernw was the first to employ the dual-use of W-o-T here, IIRC. Fitting, though now I can't remember if she was using it to describe one of my comments. ::stare::


I see that Dragonmount still doesn't have a Storm Leader report from San Diego. Jason, if you are lurking here, and don't get such a report, I'll expand on my comments at 2091 & 2092 and submit it to your news link.
Barry T
2258. blindillusion
Regarding the Choedan Kal@various

Why would the Shadow want it? Shaidar Haran has no need for a ter'angreal. Moridin has never shown any interest in any of the various types of angreal, has he? Sure, there is the possible exception of Callandor, but, if anything, Ishamael was interested in keeping Rand from getting his hands on it more than having it for himself.

Wouldn't they rather leave it with Rand? It's a tempting device, after all. It allows a male to channel Earth shattering amounts of the power, has no defects and as an added bonus it’s pocket-sized.

It’s also addictive…a plus for the Shadow. It keeps Rand from having to deal with Callandor, a defective/incomplete sa’angreal…a VERY big plus for the Shadow. And basically, that’s the key point. By leaving the CK with Rand they leave him with access to something just about anyone would rather use as opposed to the device MENTIONED IN PROPHECY.

And who’s to say Callandor is still incomplete? Perhaps when it was on that table in the AoL the Aes Sedai had yet to make it where a man needed to link with two women to use it.

The CK was nothing more than a distraction and a dangerous one at that. I mean Lanfear wanted to use the two with Rand!! That should be an obvious clue that nothing good could come from using them.

edit:

JEJ@2263 ~ Well sure, there is that. And taking out the Taint was a good thing. I was kinda going for a...The CK is too much power for any one man to hold...kind of thing.
Thomas Keith
2259. insectoid
Tektonica @2223/2224: Thank you! My mom will surely appreciate the comment. I've told her that one of these days I need to find her a green shawl.

Randalator @2227: LOL.

Free @2257: The Storm Leaders are probably still typing up all of your questions!
Wilson Grooms
2260. Dedicated
Isilel @2249

The problem I see with hiding in other worlds with the portal stones is that they are reflections of this world. What happens here, happens there as well. They may have tried to hide, but the world would break in the other worlds as well and unheaval there might come without the warning that a male channeler is in the area. So anybody who fled there would likely decide that it is actually safer here and quickly return.
Bouke de Boer
2261. Bouke
SteelBlaidd @2253: Aah, but what if Demandred started the civil war for his own gain?

Plus, rumors from Shara are always halftruths and twisted, so 'civil war' could mean anything from a fullscale revolt to a common barroom brawl.
Tess Laird
2262. thewindrose
I thought the civil war in Shara was caused by Graendal taking the current leaders:The current Sh'boan and Sh'botay, Chiape and Shaofan, are(were) enjoying Graendal's hospitality.
James Jones
2263. jamesedjones
2258 blindillusion
The CK was nothing more than a distraction and a dangerous one at that. I mean Lanfear wanted to use the two with Rand!! That should be an obvious clue that nothing good could come from using them.
Absolutely! I mean, aside from that little distraction at Shadar Logoth, it was a completely ebil tool.
Wilson Grooms
2264. alreadymadwithaolaessedai
Isilel @2249
We have no information on how AS leaders of the AoL gained their positions. It could be a simple power grab or simply that the longer lived Aes Sedai had a longer time in which to serve, make their mark and prove their suitability for the positions they hold. Working to prove their worth is obviously something modernday Aes Sedai are loath to do. Similarly, while it is easy to dismiss the AoL Aiel as an indentured race, the fact that a pact was involved suggests the Aiel entered service voluntarily. Again we have no information on the circumstances surrounding this.
Tricia Irish
2266. Tektonica
Freelancer@2233

Thanks for the heads up on the edit function....I tried to use it to eliminate one of my accidental entries, but no go. You are always so "free" with your helping comments. This somewhat computer challenged Mackie appreciates it.

Insectoid@2258

Glad to hear your mom's a Green....we need more warriors for TG.
F Shelley
2267. FSS
OK - so on facebook Brandon confirms that we've seen Mesaan's alter ego on screen prior to TGS (prior to KOD, I believe).

If you count New Spring in that, my vote for Mesaana's secret ID is: Tsutama Rath.

If not, then I have no clue. I like to read Fantasy, not mysteries...
Thomas Keith
2268. insectoid
FSS @2267: The fact that Tsutama is in NS all by itself eliminates her as a possibility--the Forsaken weren't free yet at that point.

EDIT: Unless, of course, Mesaana killed the real Tsutama and took her place...but she could have done that with any sister, so... nah. I'm gonna stick with Danelle.
R B
2269. MasterAlThor
insectoid....

Are you trying to play matchmaker for your mom.
You know that Greens often marry their Warders.


So we are looking for the BIG clue in books 4-6. What are the overall story arcs in those books?

Have we ever found out about the ramifications of using the Bowl of Winds yet?

I know that is in book 7, but that still needs to be discussed.

If anyone is going to a book signing you should ask about that.

Now that my ADD moment is over. Are there any characters missing? Did we know of any places that were mentioned in passing?

Come on people the combined intelligence in this bunker should be enough to solve world hunger. We should be able to figure this one out.
Wilson Grooms
2270. altarego
re: Rand channeling the TP

We know that in times of great stress Rand has been able to at least perceive the connections the FS have to the DO (end of EotW and FoH). We also know that the male adam link isn't perfect.

Rather than come up with some complicated mumbo jumbo re: a link with Moridin, it could be that he unconsciously drew the TP vis a vis his link with Semirhage.

That would definitely explain her follow shock and disbelief and her *immediate* recognition of betrayal.
Leslie Annis
2271. Lannis
Hi guys, been busy lately... a few days, three pies and about 9 dozen cookies later (apple pies, chocolate pie, more snickerdoodles and some hermits...)

Freelancer @ 2091 & 2092: Thanks for the excellent recaps! :)

CJD @ 2127, ysiamrich@ 2132, Kjell @ 2138, and anyone new I've missed: Welcome to the club! Cookie? :)

Tinaa @ 2133: BAHA! I like you and your shit disturbing ways! Feel better! ;)

Free @ 2208: re: Brandon... I totally agree with your assessment of him, and I haven't even gotten to a signing (nor will I, seeing how none are in Toronto...). I've been following him on Facebook, and the guy is a windstorm, blowing from city to city, attacking every airport bookstore and signing all stock copies of tGS (sometimes even hiding WoT bumper stickers!)... the act has been affectionately labelled "brandalism" and he's on a rampage! His Facebook status updates are humble and fun, and totally fan-based... he loves to interact with the fans and keep us all up to date on what's going on with him. All in all, he seems a really decent, down to earth kind of guy... and the more I'd heard about him the more I knew (before I'd read tGS) that Harriet'd made an excellent choice, and IMHO nothing in tGS contradicts this--his talent is equalled by his humility and appreciation for the fans, his own, and those WoT-based. :)

Yes, Brandon Sanderson is MOA!
Wilson Grooms
2272. AndrewB
Some posters (including myself) have wondered aloud over the "glossed over" tidbit from somewhere between books 4-6. Well, I know have a guess.

In the DSR, we learned of two female access keys of the CK (the one in Tanchico and the one in Rhuidan (sp?) [the Aiel city, in case my spelling is so bad]). However, we are only told of one male access key. My guess for the overlooked tidbit is the status of the second male access key.

Was a second key ever built? If so, what is its condition? Where is it? If only one was built, why?

If Rand can find the second male access key (assuming one exists and it is whole), he can thereafter use it. Remember, at the end of TGS, he destroyed his male access key during his moment of epiphany.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Captain Hammer
2273. Randalator
Tektonica@2266

Glad to hear your mom's a Green....we need more warriors for TG.

So...where exactely does the green Ajah come into play there...? *snark*


AndrewB@2272

If Rand can find the second male access key (assuming one exists and it is whole), he can thereafter use it. Remember, at the end of TGS, he destroyed his male access key during his moment of epiphany.

I think, Rand not only destroyed the access key but the sa'angreal, as well.

Rand used its own power upon it, crushing the distant globe, shattering it as if in the grip of a giant's hands.

The Choedan Kal exploded.
(TGS, ch. 50)

He crushes the "distant globe". The access key is not that distant, it's right there with him on top of Dragonmount. He destroys the sa'angreal which in turn causes the destruction of the access key...
Thomas Keith
2274. insectoid
MAT @2269: Nnnno...I don't think my dad would approve!

Lannis @2271: That reminds me...I never got my oatmeal raisin cookie. I think it got lost somewhere wayyy back in the 1800s. :(

Randalator @2273 re: Green: Be careful now, or I'll have to throw my cookie at you! :D
Wilson Grooms
2275. alreadymadwithChoedanKal
Randalator @2273

You're right that the sa'angreal is gone, but the access key is not the Choedan Kal. The Choedan Kal is the sa'angreal itself, the distant globe.
Wilson Grooms
2276. Bill Door
RE: The Big Clue

(Lord of Chaos, Under the Dust) -- I've always wondered what it was that Nynaeve and Elayne would have found if they had followed through with their Need-search when they first wound up in that White Tower storeroom in Tel'aran'rhiod.

They surmised that it was a ter'angreal that nobody had figured out how to use, but wrote it off and excluded it from their search because they couldn't get to it. Maybe it's got something to do with the Big Clue; it sure did give me a loose-end vibe when I read it, and now that Egwene is in control of the tower...
T C
2277. Freelancer
altarego@2270

Interesting thought, except for one small point. Only Moridin has permission to access the True Power. Semirhage had, until shortly before that scene, been a captive of Rand's entourage. Moridin said she was to remain that way as punishment for hurting Rand and for failing to capture him. (In that order, by gum) So there's no way she's getting opened up to the True Power, therefore no way for Rand to gain it through her.


amw@2275

That big huge statue near Cairhien, the one that put Rand into a trance, where he quoted that old Aiel line about spitting in Sightblinder's eye on the last day, and scared Lanfear spitless? Yeah, Rand made it go boom. It sploded. No more Choedan Kal. Finding another foot-tall statue now is pointless, for there is nothing to access with that access key.


adriansedai@2279

Don't be too certain that the name Suffa wasn't RJ's choice. Many felt likewise about ForTuona, and it was not Brandon's doing.


P.S. Brandon tidbit of the day. While at the San Diego signing, he referred more than once to not being good with math, "I'm an English major, Jim!". And yet, he spoke of preferring big fantasy books as a teenager because of their more desirable page-to-dollar ratio. Later on, when speaking of his hours of agonizing after deciding to say yes to Harriet, he said (as close as I can recall to verbatim, and edited for brevity);
"There are bigger fans of The Wheel of Time. Fans who devote entire websites to character appearance, or the FAQ. And there are better writers. Writers like George R. R. Martin who are amazing to me. But when I drew a Venn diagram in my mind of Wheel of Time fans and published fantasy authors, the intersection of the two included one person. Me. So if I wanted it done right, I had to do it."


A couple of interesting mathematical references for someone who claims no affinity for numbers. Definitely worthy of the White.
Wilson Grooms
2279. Adrian Sedai
Firstly, I have just finished TgS and am now feeling sad and depressed that i have to wait a year for the next book. damn you Brandon, why did you have to do such a good job? Once or twice you were a little clunky and not as subtle as Mr Jordan (naming elaida Suffa was fun but not subtle as thats what most of the readers want her to do) but I loved every page. I didn't even feel like anyone was off at all, though I do agree that Egwene seemed a bit too Super even for a Super Girl. Mind you, elaida was as mad as a fish by the end and it is a staple of all good literature that the bad guy has to humiliate and bring down the good guy (the classic monologuing and easily escaped off camera death trap) whilst the good guy will just kill you. I find it more shocking what Egwene did with the Black sisters. Possibly that it happened off camera so it seems very offhand. A paragraph or two and bye bye large number of ladies of dubious morality. I just have a gut feeling that RJ would have spent more time inside Egwenes head dealing with the morality of it. In many ways she came across as cold and hard as Rand.

Ah Rand.... Does this mean we can stop disliking him and wanting to shoot him through the head with a bolt gun now? I liked him to start with but have found him intensely irritating for around 6 books now. I'm hoping we can get back to the caring emotional man we saw in the beginning instead of the insane doodah he has been for such a long time now.

Did anyone read the prophesy at the end? It looks like at least one of Fortuona's has come true. She really needs to look at them a little less literally.
"At the end of time, when the many shall become one,
the last storm shall gather it's angry winds to destroy a land already dying.
and at it's center, the blind man shall stand upon his own grave.
there he shall see again, and weep for what he has wrought."

the many shall become one is obviously Rand and his infinite counterparts (lews therin included) making peace within him. All those remembered lives stretching to infinity reminding him of love, peace and hope.

The blind man standing upon his own grave is obvious too. Rand was so blinkered in his vision of the last battle and his role in it he became blind to everything and everyone. Only standing on Lews Therins grave were his eyes opened and he could see what he had become. Unfortunately Fortuona seems to think that some mad woman will gouge his eyes out with spoons or something.

I can't remember who said it as it was hundreds of posts ago but someone was saying that they thought Rands laugh at the end was an insane laugh. To quote the book again, "Rand looked up at it. Then he smiled. Finally he let out a deep throated laugh, true and pure. It had been far too long."

Not insane laughter, good laughter. It seems our boy is finally on the mend.

And finally, how rubbish is the US cover? Here in britain we have the most beautiful cover. It is purple storm clouds sweeping across the front with the triple circle logo stamped into the center. None of the deformed badly drawn people you lot have. If I was in charge of Tor art department I'd find me a new cover artist pretty sharpish. A well drawn art print of Egwene blasting Raken from the sky, her hair blowing in the wind atop a broken tower. Thats more like it :)
Ron Garrison
2280. Man-0-Manetheran
"Ricky! You got some sploden to do!"

Thanks for the grin, Free.
Wilson Grooms
2281. Valsuvious
I just wanted to say and see if anyone else had caught onto this bit of intel. B.S. said recently that we are missing something that has begun between Books 4 and 6 that is way more pertinent than who killed Asemodian and in my opinion could only be 1 of 2 things. One could be the link between the land itself and the physical and mental well-being of the Dragon Reborn. The only other connection could be that someone looked over something with the power that we have not realized to be important and that it will be important, especially right before T.G. I might even be way off base here but being that I have been reading this series for over 10 years now, I feel like I have gotten a firm grasp on things. Btw, Verins scene with Egwene was very well done. It felt like RJ's voice was directly at hand in that scene. It was as if I felt a part of Rand snap in the scene where he tapped into the True Source through the Moridin link and smashed her with it. It was extreme vindication as well as extreme disbeleif and horror at the same time as to what he turned into. When Rand told Cadsuane straight up that if she did not leave his sight that he would try to use just his tavereness to stop her heart !? You could have heard a pin drop in my head at reading that. Part of me still feels that the old bat deserved it though.
Captain Hammer
2282. Randalator
Welcome Valsuvius, in this here madhouse. Leave as long as you still ca...ah well, too late.

re: Big clue in Books 4-6

Yes, we are aware of that. And I doubt it is your first idea. The whole Dragon-is-connected-with-the-land issue is well known, along with the mythological source for that aspect (the Fisher King).

Other than that we're still more or less clueless, despite the supposed clue-ity in the books...
Tricia Irish
2283. Tektonica
Randalator@2273

Now don't be bashin' Insectoids' mom's favorite color. The Green needs some new leadership!

Adrian Sedai@2279

Beautiful summary. Made me want to start another reread. I totally agree with you about the cover art. I take the dust jacket off so people won't think I'm reading a children's book.

Maybe we should ALL dig out Books 4-6 and get to work.....

Or bake more cookies....Pumpkin Pie anyone?
Leslie Annis
2284. Lannis
insectoid @ 2274: Dude! You totally need a cookie?! We've got cookies! ::waves hand:: This way to the bunker, folks! This way to the treat table!

Ooooh! Pumpkin pie? Don't mind if I do! :)

Uh, guys? I think we're going to need more lawn chairs... I don't think we'll get that many recliners in here... ;)

Ooh! Ooh! Found a closet! ::opens, digs through:: Nah, no lawn chairs... but I found where R.Fife stashed our tutus!




Aaaand I have nothing constructive to add, obviously... XD




...





Go Light!
Stephanie Johnson
2285. cinmngirl70
Well, I don't think I'm ever going to catch up (just got to post 2100), so I'll just go ahead and post!

I think Mesaana could defeat the OR by creating one in T'A'R, the same way Nynaeve created the A'Dam to bind Moggy.

I think it was odd that she made Sheriam collect all the T'A'R dream rings.
Henry Loose
2286. schrodinger
...I'll get started on the cinnamon rolls (1 lb of butter, so not for the weak of heart :-)).

I'm going to start re-reading the series (can't just jump into books 4-6 now can I?). Not knowing what we missed is making me crazy, and I'm not crazy, am I? (no, no I'm not) Thank you voice in my head. (yes, yes; now go make those cinnamon rolls). Right away boss.
T C
2287. Freelancer
cinmngirl70@2285
I think it was odd that she made Sheriam collect all the T'A'R dream rings.

First, howdy! Welcome to the jungle, we've got fun and games.

So, about your Mesaana oddity. Consider this. When she sent Sheriam after those items (not all were rings), she threatened her with loss of a finger or toe for each that she failed to retrieve. To me that means the mission is important to the forsaken, she isn't just making busywork for an inadequate Black sister.

Why would they be important to her? Directly, not at all. But keeping them out of the hands of the non-Black Aes Sedai, very important. Can't have a bunch of channelers wandering the dreamworld. Also, remember that in the timeline of things, Halima has run from the rebel camp not many days past. Any chance she and Mesaana have spoken? More urgency to remove any advantageous objects, especially since she has might well have figured that the seige is about to turn into attack.

schrodinger@2286
::raises an eyebrow:: Are you poking fun at a new commentor's name? ::points to 2285:: Or is that your answer to Tektonica's pumpkin pie cookies.
Cheryl
2288. First Selector
Thinking about possibilities for clues in books 4-6.

Let's see, we have a lot of info about T'A'R that is introduced. Perhaps something we learn about that?

We've got Rand & co in the Waste, Cairhien, Caemlyn. SG & co in Tanchico, circus, Salidar. Perrin mostly in Two Rivers.

Graendal, Sammael, Rahvin, Lanfear plotting.

There's also the Tinker caravan incident with Mat.

Hmm...

edit: grammar
Henry Loose
2289. schrodinger
@freelancer 2287

that was an answer to tektonica's pumpkin pie cookies... sorry if it seemed I was trying to make fun of anybody's name (btw, the cinnamon rolls are delicious, its one of the few baked items of deliciousness that I was able to wrangle from my mom's cookbooks before I went to college... another was for homemade donuts, I'll bring those to the bunker later :-)).
D.I. Rock
2290. FeatherDancer
Regarding the missing links starting in books 4-6

I'm doing re-reads & am still on Book 6. Some things that have been itching at me so I thought I'd throw them out.

1. Murky stuff that happened after the Aiel War? There are references to Aes Sedai being involved in nasty business after the Aiel War and there are other references in later books but I don't recall them all. Might be clues in those passages.

2. Rand and Min. Well these were things I was thinking until they becane estranged in TGS. Starting in book 4 Rand starts making mental observations about Min. First he refers to tme with her as being like balm for his wounds, later he questions why he feels so comfortable around her, several times he mentions that she seems able to read his mind - more so after they are bonded. I recall when I first read the books thinking those observations are tied to his general feelings for her. But now I recall that Min's talent is something that is old and was lost - recently returned. Sometimes makes me wonder if there is some connection between them in other turns of the wheel. Maybe not lovers all the time but there is a Dragon & there is a being that plays the role of Seer/Philosopher. The Dragon has to do what he does and the Seer has to navigate the puzzles of prohecy?

3. Book four is when Matt's memory's from other lives start to come to him. Little snipets of history start leaking out when he is caught up in one of their thoughts. Maybe there are things hidden there.

Just some random thoughts.
Scott Terrio
2291. Renegade248
Here is some answers from one of the BWS signings. This is taken from the Dragomount forums.

1. Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

1. Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

2. Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

2. Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

• I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.
• Brandon is concerned about the HCFF's digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon. [Luckers Note: This seems to confirm that it will be revealed in ToM]


I still can't figure out what it is, but hopefully someone else can from the quote above.
Julian Augustus
2292. Alisonwonderland
AMW@2239:
Hurin can't smell darkfriends, which is what the Forsaken are regardless of what airs they choose to put on.

He can't smell your ordinary run-of-the mill darkfriend who hasn't commited any murders recently, but he definitely can smell Forsaken, even if he doesn't realize what he is smelling!

Check back to after he, Rand and Loial came back from the portal stone world with Lanfear. He specifically mentioned that he could smell evil on Lanfear, but attributed it to the portal stone world (nice bit of misdirection on Jordan's part): tDR, pb, p270
I could smell it all the time, there, killing and hurting and the vilest evil you could think of. I could even smell it on us. On all of us. Even on you, my Lady, if you'll forgive me for saying so. It was just that place, twisting me the way it twisted your eye.
Eva Casillas
2293. EvaLou
Hi all! Enjoying the comments. Here are my thoughts:

I'm wondering if the clue we missed might have to do with the dream world. Personally, I'm fascinated by that place. Nynaeve's need-search bringing her to the WT, Egwene's need-search bringing her to the Tinkers, and Perrin sensing something far away but being pulled out by Hopper are all clues to something (or several somethings). I'm wondering if there are lots of other clues during previous books that might have been overlooked.

I've also been wondering how it might be possible for Graendal to have survived. It seems obvious that she must have been in the palace when the messenger was sent in. Is it possible that she could have set the weaves for Compulsion, sent him back, and then ran far away? What I'm getting at is, maybe the weaves disappeared because the place where the weaves were performed disappeared. If the palace technically did not exist at the time the messenger went there, he could not have met Graendal. Therefore, he was no longer under her compulsion.

In other words, maybe the weaves disappeared because that moment never happened, not because Graendal is dead.
Julian Augustus
2294. Alisonwonderland
Talking about Hurin, I don't think anyone has yet picked up on this clue. Here's TGS, p693:
"Well," Huring said, sighing. "They did tell you----" He hesitated, seeming distracted by something. He sniffed audibly. "Now that...that's strange. Never smelled that before."
"What?" Rand asked.
"I don't know," Hurin said. "The air...it smells like a lot of death, a lot of violence, only not. It's darker. More terrible." He shuddered visibly.

So, the question is, what is Hurin smelling? A couple of possibilities.
1. Rand himself. His dark aura is translating into evil Hurin can smell.
2. Someone very close to Rand, perhaps one of the Aiel chiefs, or one of his trusted Ashaman, a member of Rand's party that went to meet Hurin, is a DF. If so, who?

Any thoughts?
Wilson Grooms
2295. Adrian Sedai
I think I've worked out how Mins visions work. I apologise if someone has already pointed this out but at nearly 3000 posts I've sort of lost track of what I've read and what I haven't.

Cadsuane points out that Min sees threads in the pattern from far in the future. Now, if we accept that the wheel weaves a tapestry from the lives of the people and everything in the world, then there has to be a pattern. Some of the threads have to be important so there is a set of circumstances where some of the people involved are steered by the pattern towards certain events. It is like a master craftsman creating a patterned carpet. Some of the threads can be placed anywhere and it won't make a difference. Other threads are vital for reasons such as stablility, consistancy of design etc. What Min sees is the threads when placed for set reasons. The wheel has laid those threads in place which will lead them to the event that Min has seen. It doesn't mean that free will has been removed, only that the person has done something or put themselves in a position where they are briefly important for the design of the pattern. I imagine that the wheel itself would protect the person until the event has been completed and then the person would revert to being an ordinary thread again able to do much as they like until they become important again. This would also explain why Min nearly always sees visions around Aes Sedai as they are such a bunch of interfering busybodies poking their noses into everyone elses business that they would keep being woven into important positions within the pattern due to their own actions.

Cadsuane also points out to Corele that the only way Mins visions would fail to come to pass would be if the pattern was destroyed. The way I looked at it at the time of reading was like a person knitting a jumper. You can see the wool being laid down in stitches and most of them are the same. Sometimes a different stitch or colour of wool is used and this creates a design. Rip a thread out and the jumper becomes distorted (balefire) but still fundamentally untouched. Rip too many out and it starts to fray and needs darning. Set fire to the jumper before it is complete and you have a useless mess fit only to go into the bin. Terribly simplistic I know, but it was one of those things thats been bugging me for a long time. Since Min was introduced in fact :)

As for the sudden discussion of books 4 and 6, I've not read them in the longest time but if it was as obvious as Brandon thinks it is, surely Leigh would have noticed and commented in her re-reads. If there is anyone outside the RJ camp who knows the books inside out it's her. I don't always agree with her gender politics (actually, I rarely agree but thats one of the things that makes the re-reads so much fun, watching Leigh head-desk over things I don't find even vaguely odd)but you can't deny, the girl knows her WoT. I'm loving the re-reads so much as she is pointing out stuff I'd missed every time such as giraffe skeletons and car logos. It's like the "who killed Asmo" question. RJ was quite irritated about the whole thing as to him it was blindingly obvious. To the rest of us it is one of the last great burning questions. That and "Who is Mesaana". Another one that RJ couldn't understand why we hadn't worked it out. I think Brandon has fallen into the same trap. He is so close to the material now that he forgets we lack his priviledged info. If Leigh hasn't spotted it with her magnifying glass and fine tooth comb I doubt if the rest of us mere mortals will find it.

And note to Leigh--- Please please please please please start the next re-read. I'm dying here!! I need your posts and my own personal head-desking at your head-desking. I'm fully healed so you can carry on.........

Pretty please??
Wilson Grooms
2296. Adrian Sedai
EvaLou @2293: I think you miss the point about Graendals compulsion. she basically mind wipes her victims to the point that they can't even summon enough mental energy to live. The compulsion is the only thing keeping them alive. Assuming Graendal is as cocky and superior in attitude as the rest of the Chosen she wouldn't suspect that the victim was anything other than what he seemed. We know he was bait but she didn't. All she did was put another victim under her control to be used later or not depending on how important he turned out to be later. We can assume that he told her everything he knew about why he was there so she knew he was working for Rand and it made sense to send him back possibly as her own spy. She wouldn't have compulsed and run as she didn't know Rands plan. If she had removed the compulsion to try to trick Rand into thinking she was dead the poor man would have collapsed like a puppet with the strings cut. The fact that he was suddenly not compulsed and was perfectly normal, and that he didn't appear to have ever been compulsed is in my opinion extremely strong evidence for bye bye graendal time. even mild compulsion leaves a mark.
Eva Casillas
2297. EvaLou
Adrian Sedai@2296

I was perfectly convinced that Graendal was dead based on the evidence of the weaves vanishing until BSW said that he wouldn't confirm that she's really dead. So I'm just trying to think of ANY way that she could have put those weaves on the messenger and yet not died in the balefire. The only thing I can think of is that she did run away and the weave disappeared because that moment in time (when she placed the weaves) was erased. Maybe I didn't explain it right, but it kind of makes sense to me. People keep telling Rand that he doesn't really understand balefire, so maybe we, as the reader, don't completely understand it either?

Edit: "BWS"
M. Kristall
2298. The Ninth Horse
As per Freelancer (TYVM) @2092
No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

I see no interpretation of this quote that allows for Rand to channel the True Power in any way.

He screamed, in both rapture and rage, and wove enormous spears of Fire and Air. He slammed the weaves against the collar at his neck, and the room exploded with flames and bits of molten metal, each one distinct to Rand. He could feel each shard of metal blast away from his neck, warping the air with its heat, trailing smoke as it hit a wall or the floor.

There are three possibilities for something like this that I am aware of:
Saidar: we are led to believe that Rand cannot use that and Semirhage would recognize it if he somehow did;
Saidin: possible if the Domination Band were faulty, but Rand would recognize it and we would know, being in his POV and all; and
True Power: only Moridin can channel it, but it seems very like Rand channeling.
Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

Perhaps Moridin was already channeling the True Power and Rand was just directing the flows? It seems more likely that BWS misspoke, IMO.
Wilson Grooms
2299. Adrian Sedai
EvaLou @2297 Sorry if it appeared to be me criticising you. As you can see from my post I'm totally convinced of Graendals death but following on from your logic I can see how you could make a case for her survival. If you mean Brandon by saying BSW then I suspect he doesn't want to give anything away at all, even confirmation or denial of something like that. I don't think that balefire is that complicated to be honest. It burns the thread of the person back through the pattern to before they died so everything they did was erased but the memory remains. It was Graendal herself who cast the compulsion so in my opinion it would still have been in force if she ran off but the palace was balefired. But thats just me. There may be something to balefire we don't understand yet to change my mind. Now if it was Moghedian then I'd be looking for the body. That woman is sneaky!!

And may I say, I've been reading this thread since it started (even though I've got lost and forgotten where i had stopped reading the night before) and I'm delighted at how little flaming there is. Normally, on every other forum I'm on, a thread this long has a nasty habit of descending into chaos and horror. I think it says something about the quality of Wot fans that we can disagree quite strongly over things and still remain polite and friendly. I've been waiting to post until I finished the book but thought I'd be too late as I assumed that the powers that be would have locked it for getting nasty and it hasn't happened. All I can say is "Yay team" :)
Thomas Keith
2300. insectoid
2300 woo!

Lannis@2284: ::grabs a handful of cookies:: Here Randalator...

Maybe a new post tomorrow? It's now been three weeks, and some people are beginning to twitch as they run out of theories. And we've run out of historical dates; maybe someone can think of a new game to play. ;D

Question: How did LTT recognize the True Power? Just by the evil feel of it, or by seeing Moridin's face?
T C
2301. Freelancer
The Ninth Horse@2298

Rand channeled the True Power. He himself. He drew it through his unique connection to Moridin, which completely sidesteps the Dark One's restrictions. Moridin has access, and through him, Rand had access. That is all there is to it. Period. Full stop. Moridin had nothing to do with it, and while it is unlikely, he perhaps didn't even know it happened. Shaidar Haran didn't know it was possible, so he couldn't have "arranged" for Rand to use the True Power to free himself and balefire Semirhage.

Now, when Brandon answered that question in the way he did, he was absolutely NOT telling me I was wrong. His expression was clearly that this was a correct interpretation, just that he felt the need to give an Aes Sedai answer. In fact, it substantiates the question. The True Power was channeled, there can be no question about that. Rand did not channel saidar through Semirhage, she would have put a stop to that instantly if it had happened. She knew it was the True Power, and cried out to the dark one for having betrayed her, as it seemed. Why? Because it appears to her that Rand has been "blessed" with access to the dark one's Power. But she is wrong! He did use that Power, but via an unexpected pathway. Moridin as angreal is the best way to put it.

Also, that Lews Therin recognizes the True Power proves it. He tells Rand that it's death and betrayal, to cast it away. To answer insectoid@2300, Lews Therin had been the general for the Light during the War of Power, surely he'd experienced the True Power at use. If nothing else, he was touched by it at least once. In the first scene most of use read in TEotW, Ishamael uses the True Power to Heal Lews Therin's insanity, so he can suffer anguish of heart as the Kinslayer:
"A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

Enough?
Barry T
2302. blindillusion
insectoid@2300:

Shield, check. Armor, check. Krytoses, because it's like a sword but awesomer, check. Ferocious pet dragon named Ned, check. Clear escape route to the bunker, check. Paper bag filled with homemade peanut butter cookies, check. Lawn chairs for Lannis@2284, check. ::sigh:: here goes nothing...

LTT didn't recognize the True Power. Rand did, from his past memories of dealings with the DO. LTT was a symptom of Rand's insanity. Rand has been talking to himself all this time.

...wasn't all for naught after all ::takes deep breath:: Lawn chairs intact if a little dusty. Bag ripped a little but all the cookies are safe. Escape route worked like a champ. Ned safely back in my backpack...small dragon. Krytoses awesomer than ever. Armor, thrown in the corner. Shield, tossed to the side...who needs a shield anyway, right?

~~Sorry~~ I'm a little bored and can't sleep.

edit:...and by dragon I mean cat, and by cat I mean ka'rin because it's like a cat, but awesomer.

~~~yes, I still can't sleep....
Thomas Keith
2303. insectoid
Free @2301: True, true.

Blind @2302: How do you know about the Secret Society of Little Dragons??! ;)

Am bored too. Can only hope for a new post before this mammoth thread gets to the 25th Century.
Bouke de Boer
2304. Bouke
Re: Graendal. Personally, I never had issues with Graendal dying offscreen. To me, it was just a way of showing that Rand was getting more ruthless by the minute. Semi, toast. Oh yeah, I also came to Arad Doman to get to Graendal. There she is! Snap, she's toast.

Hmm.. toast makes me think of cookies. Cookies are gooood...

Re: balefire. Balefire burns a thread from the Pattern. I don't think a building or a location is considered a thread. Only actual people form the threads in the Pattern. So removing the location doesn't remove the actions that took place at that location if the person who performed said actions is not balefired as well.
Cheryl
2305. First Selector
Are those cinnamon rolls ready? mmm...cinnamon rolls...


Random late night Ajah musings:
So the Red's avowed purpose should be null & void now that saidin is cleansed. After TG, the Green's main purpose is fulfilled. Then what?

Do the Red and Green Ajahs disband? :o Do all Ajahs disband and the Aes Sedai return to a structure more similar to that in AoL? Do the Green and Red each come up with a new focus? Or is channeling gone after TG? Or does something completely different happen?
Maiane Bakroeva
2306. Isilel
Freelancer @2301:

Moridin had nothing to do with it, and while it is unlikely, he perhaps didn't even know it happened. Shaidar Haran didn't know it was possible

Well, then explain why he ordered Elza to leave the access to Choedan Kal behind. This makes zero sense if he/they truly believed that Semi would be bringing Rand to SG.

Moreover, if it turns out that the only impressive gambit of the Shadow in the whole WoT was just a series of Keystone screw-ups, I personally will be deeply disgusted.
One of the high points of TGS for me was that the Shadow was finally doing something clever and in such a way that some of the previous stupidities were explained away.

Speaking of Graendal:

I hope that she is alive, because her end is completely at odds with her characterization, IMHO. Of course, I felt the same about Sammael, too (and will go in detail when we have ACOS re-read).

Anyway, Rand told us how intelligent she was, with plans within plans, etc. But what we have seen was quite dumb. I.e.:

In her own POV Graendal thought how she'd abandon anything and run instead of confronting Rand.

So what was she still doing in Arad Doman once an immensely strong ta'veren showed up there and started telling everybody who'd listen that he was looking for her?
No matter how well she thought she was hidden, the chance-twisting could uncover her. She knew this - she had to deal with LTT before. The clever thing to do would have been to relocate her lair. She could Travel, after all.

What was she doing, sending out distinctive couriers and having insignificant patsies brought to her lair? Not smart at all.

Why on earth did she send a Compelled patsy to _slowly_ poison a distinctive courier, instead of either freeing him or destroying the "prison" personally or via her net of DFs? If she was really erasing the tracks, it was incredibly inept.

A lot of people knew of Semi's death, including servants, a BA, etc. How could Graendal not know that Rand was over his "not hurting women" phase?

And finally, Ramshalan. According to Sammael (paraphrasing) Graendal so often used Compusion like a hammer, that people forgot that she could also use it very subtly and undetectably.

So, how on earth was a heavy Compulsion on the obvious patsy of the DR a clever opening move? Wouldn't not Compelling him or doing so very subtly - i.e. leaving the opponent uncertain, have been much more in character for an opening move in an intricate game?

Why would Graendal just remain sitting within a line of sight of an immensely powerful, crazy enemy?

Couple all of this with G's orders to torment Rand psychologically, of the results of which we saw no sign and...

the only plausible IC conclusion is that Graendal has finally done something that the FS should have been doing from the start.
I.e. grabbed a BA, taught her Compulsion and set her up as a decoy. Maybe the hapless BA was even Delana , courtesy of Aran'gar or Galina, somehow.

Either that or Granny's death was as OoC and unsatisfactory as Sammy's was.
Tricia Irish
2307. Tektonica
featherdancer@2290

I like your recounting of Rand's musings on Min from the early books....Maybe SHE is Ilyna (sp, sorry, in a hurry), Seems likely after her near murder in TGS.
He IS doing things differently this time!

Adrian Sedai@2295

Loved your very cogent explanation of how Mins vision works. Thanks for sharing!

Have some new theories....later.....

Gotta go bake....
Kurt Lorey
2308. Shimrod
The whole thing with the assault on Graendel is a little off-kilter.

Initially, I just wrote it off to the differences in BWS' writing style. But, now...
Wilson Grooms
2309. alreadymadwithhurinsmells
Re:Hurin
No, Hurin can't smell darkfriends per se. But he can smell the evil things they've done.

EvaLou @2293
One of the ways I see for Graendal to slip out is by having a pet Black do the compulsion weaves.
Kurt Lorey
2310. Shimrod
I don't think having a "pet" BA would be Graendel's style. Interesting thought, though.

IIRC, Hurin smells evil where it has touched the Pattern (he could "follow" Fain's trail, even across worlds).

In some odd manner, I think that Rand may now have one of those "thick, black ropes" acting as a potential conduit of the True Power, but only through Moridin. I think that may be what Hurin was sensing. The touch of evil generally emating from Rand.
F Shelley
2311. FSS
Re Graendel's "death".

She could have just tied off the weave to disapate within a few minutes. Nynaeve didn't check for residues (not sure if she even knows how)...
Barry T
2312. blindillusion
Isilel@2306

I've never had that big of a problem with how, well, pathetic the Shadow is, especially in regards to the Forsaken. They're considered so powerful because of Legend. Sure, what they did in the AoL was scary powerful, but their power is also based off what the Westlanders grew up seeing as possible with the Power. Wouldn't many of the AoL AS be capable of doing exactly what the Forsaken did? Yes, the Forsaken were some of the most powerful of their Age, but that doesn't mean they were competent. Look at why the DO chose them.

Also, War had to be reinvented during the AoL. Is it really that surprising that the Shadow's greatest Generals are being out-fought on the battle field by what they equate to savages? The Forsaken are underestimating their enemy. The only reason they haven't all been taken out yet? Their enemy overestimates them.

Now, as for why the Shadow is winning? Well, it's easy to win a war when your enemy isn't fighting it. Chaos is winning this war for the Shadow.

Also, the CK had to be destroyed because it was too addictive and Rand would have always chosen it over Callandor. It seems to me that that is exactly what the Shadow would want, hence the reason it was left behind.

AMW@2309

Does Graendal have any pet Blacks? That seems like a Moggy and Messy trait.

And would anyone be able to do the level of Compulsion Graendal is capable of? She was considered one of the best in the AoL, correct?
R B
2313. MasterAlThor
Captians Log 111809

No sign of Subwoofer yet. Where is he? No strange occurances have happend in the past few days. I know you are out there Sub. I can sense it.

Errrr...did I just say that out loud just then?

Isilel....

Evil is cocky. That leads to hubris and stupidity. Yep doesn't match her character but she is deeed. Toast. Ghost. Audi 5000. Gone.

Don't like it either but how else should she have been killed?

Cookies? Cinnimon Rolls?
Aaaaaawwwwwwww Yyyyyeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhh.

Now I am not big on pumpkin pie, but I will be making some sweet potato pie. Good stuff.

Freelancer and anyone else who spoke to BWS about the BIG clue....

Did you get the impression that it was an event, a person or a thing? That would help us figure this out.

You know we should just assign people to look at certain things in those books. Like someone going over the Forsaken parts, someone else looking at all the Mat parts etc. etc.

If we all take a part and pour over these books we should be able to find all kinds of interesting things.

Anyone up for it?

I have to go to class but should be back to the bunker about 2pm EST. Also have a doctors appointment at 3pm. So I will be checking in.

Just let me know what part you would like to take if you are interested and I will keep track of who is following what path.

Here is a list of those we have to follow....

Rand
Perrin
Mat
Nyn/Elayne
Forsaken (yes all of them)
Egwene
Aiel
Elida
Suian/Min/Leane

Remember we are only following the POVs.

If there are any other POVs that anyone thinks we should be following let me know.
Eva Casillas
2314. EvaLou
Adrian Sedai@2299

No worries. I didn't feel criticized, just a little patronized as if I was a newbie who didn't know the basics. Just a little...not much really. And I agree, the people on this board are much nicer than other sites I've been to.

Isilel @2306

I like your reasoning. It doesn't seem smart for her to have stayed in the area of the DR. But she also felt very safe in her fortress and hated to leave it. And a decoy would only work in this particular situation. It wouldn't have worked if she had to meet the DR face to face. He would have known it wasn't her.

Or maybe she really is dead and BWS just wanted us to keep speculating...
F Shelley
2315. FSS
@2268 - I don't think her being in New Spring eliminates her at all. She was a known Aes Sedai who appeared "on screen" prior to KOD. She had been banished after the "vileness" after the Aeil War.

Then Elaida brought her back to the Tower, and those who have met with her and whose internal monolouge we've seen thought she had changed during her 20 year exile. She had grown "harder" and her eyes were wilder or something like that.

So, an Aes Sedai changes and those who know her best think she's changed, but attribute those changes to another factor. Perfect cover for slips. She also approved the Reds going and bonding men. Men who follow an almost certain darkfriend.
Matthew Smith
2316. blocksmith
MAT@2313

All for it...and the overlap should be to the benefit of finding this clue.

I feel like I am back and school...and tonight the assignment will be to read pages x through y and provide your theme as to what the overlooked clue is. Grammar and spelling will be checked. Make sure you write in complete sentences and watch your punctuation.
M. Kristall
2317. The Ninth Horse
@2301 Freelancer
Rand channeled the True Power. He himself. He drew it through his unique connection to Moridin, which completely sidesteps the Dark One's restrictions. Moridin has access, and through him, Rand had access.
I didn't see any reasonable alternative to that explanation myself, hence my post. I can accept that Brandon misspoke or that I misinterpreted what he said (though, again, I'm not sure how *). Maybe I'm just being pedantic.

* I tried as hard as I could to interpret his words in a way that what happened…happened. But I could not.
Elroy Skimms
2318. elroyskimms
Freelancer @ 1686

Current speculation is that actions taken by others indirectly related to one who gets balefired aren't as easily erased. Though Semirhage was controlling Rand, it was his hand choking Min. Also, he used a very carefully controlled beam of balefire on both Semirhage and Elza. No damage to the walls or anything else. So possibly only a few seconds of reversal, and the choking of Min was happening for longer than that.


I see the possibility of only a few seconds reversal. If the book would not have specifically brought attention to Min checking the bruises that did not go away, I would have supported this completely. But I'm going on record as saying that I think TP balefire works a bit differently, though not sure how. If I'm right, I'll be sure to reference this post as proof to my geniusness. if I'm wrong, I'll delete this post and deny it ever happened :-)

That thought has been offered (by me as well), but many (Leigh included) would consider it all wrong to use the power of evil to defeat evil. I agree.


Had Shadar Logoth not been used to cleanse Saidin, I would have assumed that adding liquid evil into the easy-bake-oven-cupcake recipe to destroy evil would not make sense. Perhaps in breaking the seals and freeing the DO, Rand will have access to the TP that doesn't come through the DO? I don't know, but I think that the 3 becoming 1 is more about TP/OP than about Rand's harem.

Also, I forgot to mention in my post. But I'm not too thrilled about the loss of LTT's voice after the destruction of the Choedan Kal. I'll need to re-read (again) to see if LTT's voice started to appear after Rand first encountered the CK as it was being dug up in TGH. If not, I think we need more details about how Rand could have known all of the stuff from the AoL. I'm assuming we'll get more details on the LTT voice in the next 2 books, so I reserve the right to change my mind on this. But for now, I'm not feelin warm and fuzzy by the info we have been given. Though I think that the vision/prophesy of Rand standing on his own grave may have been met in Rand standing on the top of Dragonmount and then silencing LTT from his mind.

-E
Matthew Smith
2319. blocksmith
And I would volunteer to look follow a place instead of a person...T'A'R.
Ian Walker
2320. Auspicium
So it's time for a slightly loony theory (my first one!).

EDIT: So after reading 2000 comments and skipping down to add my own, I discover that all I managed to accomplish in my first paragraph was a reiteration of what stargazer said above. This is getting way too long :-P



What if Rand's ta'verenness in his meeting with Tuon actally forced (or maybe just solidified) her resolve to attack the Tower. It's been stated that what one wants is not the same as what one needs and that the Pattern has a way of providing what we need before we need it. Rand (and indeed the whole world) needs 1) a unified White Tower and 2) someone competent to head it. The Seanchan helped this in two ways. One, obviously, is that it allowed Egwene to be SuperBadass to the Extreme. Which is great and all but if they hadn't removed Elaida as well the split would've continued and even another week would've been time wasted. The Seanchan raiding the tower was the quickest to get the Tower under one competent ruler. Also consider that if the Seanchan hadn't attacked the Tower, Egwene would still be prisoner and unable to do anything about the Black Ajah (which apparently is a whole fifth of the White Tower!). The Tower being whole, Egwene being Amyrlin, and the BA Purge could only have happened as quickly as they did because of the Seanchan raid. Of course it's possible attributing it to Rand's ta'verenness is a little strong, and it may just be a simple blessing in disguise but there ya go.


Now, in response to what we missed in Book 4-6. I, too, immediately thoguht of Nynaeve and Elayne using need in T'A'R and winding up in a storeroom in the Tower. I also thought of when someone (Lanfear if I'm not mistaken) saying there are only two more powerful sa'angreal than Callandor for a man to use. One is obviously the male Choedan Kal, but the other is a mystery. Could it be in the storeroom Nynaeve and Elayne accessed in T'A'R's Tower reflection with need? Most likey a female channeller wouldn't be able to recognize a saidin-attuned sa'angreal (it has been speculated that Elayne may have discarded some male angreal when sorting through the Ebou Dar stash).

@FFS 2315. I think I'm forced to agree with insectoid. Your logic for Tsutama is quite sound however as insectoid points out Mesaana could've easily done the same to Danelle. Indeed if she's posing as a Sister then she would've had to have killed (or disposed) of that sister. Also impersonating Tsutama well enough that people who knw her well would only notice some minor hardening doesn't seem likely. It'd be easier to impersonte a friendless person. I'm not saying it couldn't be Tsutama with the evidence you cite, but some of that evidence could also be used to widen the suspect list. (I spent waaay more words) on this than I thoguht I would.

Aaaaaand I'm spent.
Barry T
2321. blindillusion
elroyskimms@2318

RE: DO Evil vs SL Evil vs Easy-Bake-Oven

About the only thing is, the DO's Evil is Complete Evil, or rather the Source of all Evil.

Aridhol used the Shadow's tactics and in doing so succumbed to Evil, thus becoming Shadar Logoth. Aridhol would fall under the Good Intentions and Paved Road sections of the Big Book of Evil.

So, by using Shadar Logoth Rand set an Evil created to destroy EVIL and said EVIL into opposition. Really brilliant, when you think about it. Using the TP for anything good, though? Um? Not good. though I do think the TP is going to be used against the DO in some way...just don't know how...

As for the Easy-Bake-Oven…nice imagery.
Bouke de Boer
2322. Bouke
Auspicium @2320: Your Looney Theory doesn't sound so looney to me. I actually think it could be true, though I doubt this is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

As for MasterAlThor's suggestion @2313: I'm game, but I'm still halfway through my re-read of TGS. After that, I'm ready to start! Should be the day after tomorrow...

BTW, elroyskimms @2318: LTT's voice first started in TSR, IIRC. That's quite a while after TGH, so I don't think the two are connected. LTT's voice starts after Rand channels more and more often and the taint gets to him.
Maiane Bakroeva
2323. Isilel
Bildillusion @2312:

I've never had that big of a problem with how, well, pathetic the Shadow is, especially in regards to the Forsaken.

I did, though not with all of them. Early deaths made sense, since they came about via arrogance, ignorance and over-eagerness as well as not understanding the DR's unprecedented nature, and so did Semi's death (assuming it was a result of the Shadow's plot). Others... not so much.

Yes, these people are much less than their legend. However, they have survived War of the Shadow and preceding Collapse that already made things far less idyllic. They have also survived the backstabbing of fellow Chosen, of which there was a myriad at the time. Every DF channeler was called so.

Further, LTT remembers them as capable.

There are 2 things in particular that always made little sense to me:

That the FS didn't make a straight beeline for known and at the time very laxly guarded *angreal cashes in WT, Tear and Rhuidean upon being freed.

And that they made so little and so ineffective use of DF channelers. Something that should have been a very natural thing for them to do, given the age they come from.
Particularly the generals. So, yes, Sammi's military efforts were totally OoC without a channeler corps.

Re: pet Blacks, Graendal could always order her DF network to find her some. There are DF signs etc. after all, which allow them to find each other and FS orders to be relayed. Or she may have gotten some courtesy of Aran'gar.
We also don't know whether Compelling such weak target as Ramshalan required that much skill. Nynaeve noticed that the weave was different, though.

As to how else Graendal could be defeated - I'd prefer if everything wasn't all rosy in the end and some FS remained at large.
But if she had to die, the logical approach would have been for somebody other than Rand to go after her. Somebody who she wouldn't have run from.

Also, the CK had to be destroyed because it was too addictive and Rand would have always chosen it over Callandor.

Indeed. Which is why Elza's orders to leave it behind prove that nobody really expected Semi to bring Rand to SG. QED.
Guillaume Bergeron
2324. Nightbaron
Auspicium @2320

I like the idea that it's connected to Lanfear's mention of the second most powerful male sa'angreal (Book 4), and Elayne and Nynaeve's need bringing them to the Tower storerooms (Book 6). From the clarifications on this point, it seems Brandon is saying the hints are in books 4 AND 6, not books 4 TO 6.

Quote:
"1. Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned."

However, he also seems to be talking about an event that is going on behind the scene. Could it be related to the Tinkers (seen in the TR in Book 4, and the murdered ones Mat finds in Book 6, who left the "Tell the Dragon Reborn..." message)?
Tina Murrah
2325. Tina.Murrah
I have a couple of thoughts bouncing around in my head, its hard to catch back up on these posts everyday.
My first is in regard to MasterAlThor @2269

Are there any characters missing? Did we know of any places that were mentioned in passing?

There is the "Island of Madmen" far to the south that the Sea Folk are afraid of... any relevance anyone?

And as far as the Big Clue in books 4- 6, and I know my time line might be off, but what became of the wagons & wagons of ter'angreal/sa'angreal(possible male angreal??) from Rhudiean that was in Cairhien? Did these ever make it to Tar Valon?

Also someone please help me.. What’s going on (currently) with the Ogier? Last I recall it was mentioned they were meeting? Do we know why?
And the Tinkers? Have they vanished or is it just me? Are we not supposed to know yet??
Tess Laird
2326. thewindrose
This post is back from Part 10 of Lord of Chaos - thought I would bring it up again in relation to some of the posts about when Elayne and Nyn were using need in TAR.

HurinSmells brought up an interesting idea on the last thread. Nyn and Elayne are using need and end up in the same room as Egwene:
Chap 14 At the sight of Nynaeve and Elayne, Egwene did not step out of the dream: she leaped out. {...}She did not think they had seen her, but what under the Light were they doing there,(emphasis RJ) in a part of the Tower that held nothing of interest?
Back in Chapter 13 Suddenly Elayne gasped, "Egwene!" Nynaeve whirled around, but the passage was empty. "I saw her," Elayne insisted. "I know I did."
So need brought them to Egwene first, then she stepped out of the dream and when they took their next step Egwene was no longer in T'a'R to be found so they ended up in the room with objects of power. So that was a good forshadowing of something that the SAS needed I thought. Just caught it this time because of HurinSmells comment.
Guillaume Bergeron
2327. Nightbaron
What’s going on (currently) with the Ogier? Last I recall it was mentioned they were meeting? Do we know why?

Yes, they are meeting to discuss opening the Book of Translation (not clear on what it is, though it sounds like a ter'angreal, which might make them leave the world of men, considering they are not around in our age).

And the Tinkers? Have they vanished or is it just me? Are we not supposed to know yet??

We saw in tGS that they are gathering around Ebou Dar, but I'm thinking that yes, the missed hints are about the Tinkers, as per my previous post.
Ian Walker
2328. Auspicium
@2324 nightbaron

Something to do with the Tinkers is definitely number two on my list. If Mat's going off to Finnland then Rand and Perrin need something to do (other than family reunions). Both are connected to the song (Rand's ancestry, "Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs", Dream Thom saying the Dragon is tied tot he land, Min viewing Pering with trees flowering around him in tEotW.) after all.


@2325 Tina.Murrah

It was stated in a Q&A session that that the wagonloads of stuff from Rhuidean has been warded by Rand and is kept guarded in Cairhien. (Aildieb is in the Sun Palace stables).
Ron Garrison
2329. Man-0-Manetheran
2291 Renegade248
Clarification please. You used the term "hidden thing." Was BWS referring to something that is hidden, or just that the clue was hidden?

2293 EvaLou
"In other words, maybe the weaves disappeared because that moment never happened, not because Graendal is dead." I think you are correct. We know that Compulsion is a weave that is tied off, so the existance of the channeler is of no consequence. It is WHEN it happened. Not buildings, not people, TIME! Seeing as how this is our only "evidence" of Graendal's death (and we all wanted her dead!), I think this is a very good catch! Thanks!

Channeling after TG - my looney theory:
Premise: The Creator and the Dark One are polar opposites. The One Power is the Creator's; the True Power is the DO's.
IF, as has been postulated, Callandor uses Saidin and Saidar (together the One Power) AND the True Power to seal away the DO, then I submit the following for your consideration:

As these two powers are polar opposites, when they meet it will be a huge deal and the fallout would be that they neutralize each other. No more channeling. No damane, no AS, no BT - just Aludra's big ole cannons. Firepower becomes the weapon of choice for the New Age.
Ron Garrison
2330. Man-0-Manetheran
2325 Tina.Murrah - Island of Madmen
Rand asks Harine what the Sea Folk do with male channelers. Her answer was that they were given the choice of either being thrown overboard or put ashore on an island. It would make sense that this is the island.

The "Big Clue"
The recent mention of the Tinkers and the Way of the Leaf got me thinking. What's up with the Tinkers? Why are they in the story? Are they just colorful characters (pun intended)? What purpose did Aram's character serve? The Ways are marked with Avendasora (sp?) leaves. Ogier and Aeil all have major cultural connections to trees. The song? I'm going to be looking with a sensitivity to these groups.

Thinking of trees reminded me of Agent Orange, one of the uglier weapons of the Vietnam war. This herbicide was used to kill vast swaths of jungle. It also had a lingering effect that prevented anything from growing there for years. No one knew what effects it had on people downstream, etc. RJ, as a veteran, most certainly would have seen it.
Wilson Grooms
2331. alreadymadwithBS
I went to the signing last night in Los Angeles. Here are the questions I asked Brandon:

Q: "Do the Forsaken consider themselves Darkfriends?"

A: "I would think yes." [Then he saw right through me.] "Oh, I see. Tricky. You're asking about the oath rod. I think the Forsaken would have a hard time saying no to that. That's not the sort of mental gymnastics you're going to see."

So, na na, Randalator. (Just kidding. Thanks for the research @1604. That's the kind of communal knowledge that keeps me coming back.)

Then I asked him my questions from 1491. He said it may be a continuity error, but he wanted to look into it. I'll let you know what he says. I asked if there was a clue there about Mesaana, or if I was looking the the wrong place. He said that what we were supposed to take from that passage is that Egwene thinks Mesaana is still in the tower, but has no clue who she is. (He implied that there was no clue there, just perhaps incorrect wording.)

Then, without any real prompting, he said there is a way to defeat the oath rod: Compulsion.

So, maybe Moridin puts a mind-trap or Compulsion on Mesaana after her spectacular failure?

P.S. Did anyone else who had their book signed think Brandon's signature was just him scratching out his name?
Rob Munnelly
2332. RobMRobM
Wow. Go away for a conference and come back 600 posts later.

My epiphany from several days away from this thread (because trying to read it on my blackberry would have broken the device) is that we need to think about the title of the final book: A Memory of Light. Obviously important to RJ, as the title is his, and RJ has already written the final chapter. My thought is -- we may not be talking about Rand's memory of light but Moridin's. Rand will die, Moridin/LTT/Rand will be the three become one in Moridin's body, and a critical point will be Moridin returning to the Light and ending his eons-old battle with the light as the DO's leader.

How that happens - no idea, but it makes sense.

Rob

P.s. Free - thanks for asking the Tam question to BWS at the event. RAFO indeed.
Tina Murrah
2333. Tina.Murrah
@ 2329. Man-0-Manetheran
No damane, no AS, no BT - just Aludra's big ole cannons. Firepower becomes the weapon of choice for the New Age.

I agree, only it make me wonder... how, when the wheel turns again, will the OP be reborn into the pattern? Some sort of Nuclear Fallout, thinning the seal on the dark one's prison again? (Sounds frightenly plausible... )
Eva Casillas
2334. EvaLou
Man-0-Manetheran@2329

We know that Compulsion is a weave that is tied off, so the existance of the channeler is of no consequence. It is WHEN it happened. Not buildings, not people, TIME!


Yay! Someone who thinks my theory might be right!

alreadymadwithBS@2331

First of all, your name changing cracks me up. :)

Thanks for posting your questions to BWS. I love how he understood the real meaning of your question. So Cumpulsion can beat the Oath Rod? Huh? I'd like to hear some theories on how exactly that would work.
Ron Garrison
2335. Man-0-Manetheran
RobMRobM
That idea has been bouncing around in my head ever since reading Chapter 15 of TGS the second time. I like it. It makes perfect sense. And your link to the title puts the icing on the cake. ...er, cookies.
Stacy Berger
2336. anIceFan
Is it just me, or does Fortuona sound like a stripper name?

I have 3 thoughts on Graendal, all have been mentioned here.
1 is that she had a pet black that she instructed to provide the compulsion, I am kind of liking this one.
2 she did the compulsion in a manner that it would wear off. The timing would have to be to precise for this. She might know that Rand would come for her, but not exactly when.
3 she is DED dead! No more thread, bye bye G, wasn't nice knowing you. Don't forget to write, call when you get there.
Bill Reamy
2337. BillinHI
Tina.Murrah @2325: Nightbaron and others covered what I was going to say, but I will add that, IMO, Loial will convince the Ogier to stick around and fight the Last Battle alongside the humans and not open the Book of Translation (which would, indeed, take them to another world).

Also, they absolutely _have_ to meet up with the Gardeners from Seanchan!
Tricia Irish
2338. Tektonica
Masteralthor@2313

Dividing up the search load is a great idea. Hope someone has an idea of it's a person, place, thing or event. That would help.

Make assignments....or we'll just volunteer. I'd like to explore a real long lost clue rather than more "who killed Asmodean" and "is Graendal dead". I know it's a frustrating dangler, but I really don't think it's very important in the long run. IMHO.

Man-o-Manatheran@2329

Like your theory about crossing the streams of the OP and TP, ala Ghost Busters, and ka-boom, end of channelling. I've wondered about that for awhile....

My current Looney Theory:

Has Rand somehow occupying Moridan's abandoned body after sealing the Bore and winning for the Light, with no TP/Saidan, just being a normal guy. He'll have two hands again and will no doubt still have the mental skills for sword fighting....might need some physical practice....but would still be a great warder for Elayne. He'll be anonymous...new face....and he's Andoran royalty, mentally anyway. He'll let others, Mat/Fortuona, Perrin, Elayne rule the world and he'll enjoy his life/kids/wives, etc. And they live happily ever after.....I'm sure it won't be all that sweet and light....I hope not, actually, but it would be nice if he got some sort of life/reward.
Tricia Irish
2339. Tektonica
RobM@2332

Like the Moridan/LTT/Rand merger and Moridan coming to the light. That would change the old Pattern! And it would get Rand conveniently into a new body and all integrated and stuff.

Welcome back!
Captain Hammer
2340. Randalator
Man-O-Manetheren @2329

We know that Compulsion is a weave that is tied off, so the existance of the channeler is of no consequence.

No, it is completely irrelevant if the weave is tied off.

Rand argues that if he balefired Graendal past the point in time where she created the weave, then she obviously can't have created the weave in the first place. Ergo, it has to vanish, tied off or held.

The place (read: the fortress) is also irrelevant because it is NOT destroyed backwards in time but just ceases to exist the moment it gets hit. So what ever took place there has still taken place after the balefiring if the person responsible for it is still alive.

Evidence for this is the (confirmed) death of Rahvin. Rand balefired him 15-30 minutes back in time and in the process destroyed the part of the palace he happened to be in. If balefiring had destroyed the colonnade Rahvin was standing on backwards in time, too and, as EvaLou argued, had erased any events associated with it during that time, Rahvin wouldn't even have been there and couldn't have been balefired by Rand because there wouldn't have been a colonnade for him to be on. See where I'm going with this?

Balefiring an empty building doesn't affect the events that took place there before its destruction. It just gets destroyed the exact instant the balefire touches it.
Wilson Grooms
2341. little minion
Isilel @ 2306:

Yes, I agree that Graendal's character was set up so well that her off-screen exit seemed like a cheat. Hopefully we'll have something in ToM about her last moments?

Re: the "big thing" in books 4-6

Maybe we can identify it by listing the major events in the books? Off the top of my head, in no particular order:

- BA hunt in Tarabon
- Elaida raised Amyrlin
- Salidar and the rebel AS
- Trollocs in the Two Rivers
- Alanna bonds Rand
- Semi tortures Cabriana
- Aran'gar and Osan'gar
- Pacifying the Shaido
- Rand accepted as Car'a'carn at the Golden Bowl
- Moiraine "dies" fighting Lanfear
- Mat does fighting stuff

Obviously there's way too many to fully list, as those are pretty much the most exciting books in the series. We can only hope that Leigh catches something in her re-reads.

My vote is that it has to do with Taim or Demandred.
Kathy Keith
2342. Babokathy
#2331 @ already mad:

Hi, I just popped into the comments to see how many I will have to read once I get TGS read. I did not read to spoil myself.

About BWS book signing non-signature:

YES! I was aggravated by far that he didn't actually SIGN my book. He did this to everyone's books. He non-chalantly did an identical squiggle over his printed name. Then addressed the personal message. He even did this to my hard-bound "Mistborn" book. So it's not like he was attempting to disengage himself from taking credit away from RJ for the WOT novel.

Maybe he fears someone will steal his signature and start forging checks from his accounts?! I cannot believe that his actual personal signature could fit onto a check; and that squiggle is no more readable than a Doctor's sig.

Babokathy
Wilson Grooms
2343. little minion
anIceFan@2336:

LOL -- Yes, "Fortuona" DOES sound like a stripper name!
Kathy Keith
2344. Babokathy
Open message to all:

I live in San Diego area; AM newspaper states that Comic-Con 2010 has already sold out all of their 4 day passes! That most people bought theirs while they were at the 2009 Con. And that single day tickets will go on sale around Dec. 15th, while supplies last. Only available thru www.comic-con.org

BWS mentioned at the S.D. signing that he'd like to come participate in Comic-Con next year.

126,000 people attended this year. It was so big they are thinking of moving the whole shebang to a larger venue in some other city in 2012.

I went in 2004 and met Mr. Jordan and attended his panel discussion. It was awesome. Even that year, the convention was too huge like a sardine can. And parking is a nightmare. Plan to get a nearby hotel or take transit.

At $35 apiece per day, I might skip it and plan to attend BWS next book signing, which will be nice and intimate.
Birgit
2345. birgit
In some odd manner, I think that Rand may now have one of those "thick, black ropes" acting as a potential conduit of the True Power, but only through Moridin.

The black ropes were the protection from the taint, not the TP.

She could have just tied off the weave to disapate within a few minutes.

Strong compulsion would still damage his brain.
Guillaume Bergeron
2346. Nightbaron
when the wheel turns again, [how] will the OP be reborn into the pattern?

I really don't think the One Power (or the True Power) can really be gone from the Pattern (even during our age), as it is the driving force of the Wheel of Time. No OP, the Wheel doesn't turn. I think that in Ages like ours, people lose the ability to touch it, not that the OP itself is gone.

So [Compulsion] can beat the Oath Rod? Huh? I'd like to hear some theories on how exactly that would work.

I'm guessing that if you Compel someone to believe something, then they could tell lies they believe without issues. But that's more about sidestepping the Oath, not "beating" the Oath Rod. I guess Mesaana could have compelled the entire room to make them think she took the Oaths already?
Julian Augustus
2347. Alisonwonderland
Isilel@2323
There are 2 things in particular that always made little sense to me:

That the FS didn't make a straight beeline for known and at the time very laxly guarded *angreal cashes in WT, Tear and Rhuidean upon being freed.

We, as readers, know that there were *angreal caches in Rhuidean, Tear, and the White Tower. But how would the Forsaken have known? Let's examine each place in turn.

Almost nobody in the wetlands knew of Rhuidean, and even those who did know of it didn't know what it was, because the Aiel never spoke about it to wetlanders. Those who even knew the name Rhuidean only did because they surmised it was the city in the clouds Jain Farstrider wrote that he caught a glimpse of, and everybody thought he must have been seeing visions due to dehydration or something. I seem to remember that even Moiraine, who has royal family education plus Aes Sedai education, and has criss-crossed the wetlands in the last 20 years, didn't have a whisper of Rhuidean. So, how would the Forsaken who were only just released have known not only about the existence of Rhuidean, but its significance, that it had a huge collection of *angreal from the breaking?

With respect to Tear, recall that the Forsaken when released each made a beeline for a center of power and established him/herself there. And you know how jealously the FS guarded their own turf and wouldn't countenance another FS coming into their territories or even knowing where he/she was. So, Belal ensconced himself in Tear as a High Lord, and probably knew about the cache. But he would have jealously guarded it against any other FS even knowing about it. He himself didn't care for any of *angreal in the cache, because he was after much bigger fish, Callandor.

Finally, the White Tower. I remember at the Forsaken social Graendal happened to mention that Sammael was moaning about not having shocklances to arm his troops and was looking for an angreal of decent strength. Messaana then chimed in to say that there was *angreal cache in the Tower but that it is warded and the AS count everything twice a day. Messaana does not appear to possess even an angreal herself (and we know there are sa'angreal in the Tower storeroom), so we can be fairly confident that the cache wasn't simply siting there for anyone to pick up.

In short, I think you do RJ a disservice by claiming that he has the Forsaken acting stupid, at least in this respect. If Demandred, for example, had known about any easily accessible cache he would have gone for an angreal or sa'angreal and launched himself at Lews Therin, as someone at the Forsaken social said he was looking to do.
Julian Augustus
2348. Alisonwonderland
Re The hidden secret in Book 4 - 6.

I think Isilel has found the perfect answer. It is Demandred hiding in Shara. No other explanation comes close.
Wilson Grooms
2349. MatHornsounder
TGS was an awesome book!! Glory Glory to BS. Many said d 1st chapter wasnt good but i disagree.That part told how all d borderlanders went to the call of the last of the Malkier.
N i think Demandred might'v been manipulating MASEMA as he remarks on the Dragon appearing to him on the night b4 d attack in the form of light.The Dragonsworn might'v been the army that Demandred was assembling.Also people dont forget Demandred always wanted to be the dragon,so he takes the dragons identity.
N guys i think Rand might wield callandor with Avi n elayne.
Finally Egwene shws some sense in this book and though i loved her battling the seanchan i still dont like her 'controllin' n 'guidin' Rand and making him pay for what happened to the sisters who tried to take the Ashaman down.They got Tit for Tat...
& what about Taim,Logain and Narishma??
I hope the nex book comes soon coz im goin mad here waitin for it Aargh!! Hope the other 2 books are longer(about 1000-1200pgs).
Until then....
SUFFA WILL BE A GOOD DAMANE!!
Wilson Grooms
2350. Dedicated
Nightbaron @2346

My theory:

Look at what happen to Meidani when she had conflicting orders from the oathrod. She practically choked because she was required by the rod to say something that she believed to be false and to not say any untrue word at the same time. That is because the oathrod is a form of compulsion. But true channeled compulsion is stronger, so someone who is compelled to lie can overcome the oath to not say any untrue words. The questions then become who put the compulsion on Messana, what other orders were included in said compulsion, and when, if ever, will the compulsion be released?
Guillaume Bergeron
2351. Nightbaron
Dedicated @2350

Good point, the Oath Rod does end up putting compulsion on people.

Can the effects of the Oath Rod be perceived, just like Nynaeve could see the compulsion on Graendal's victims? Could they be reversed without the Oath Rod?

Intriguing.
T C
2352. Freelancer
Isilel@2306

Moridin had nothing to do with Semirhage/Elza. Shaidar Haran did, and I cannot begin to speculate about his reasons. He wanted Elza to get the Domination Band to capture Rand. What would he want with the CK access key? Maybe he doesn't want a male forsaken to have a chance at the thing. Couldn't say. That doesn't change the certainty that Moridin did not cause the True Power to be channeled to free Rand, he did it himself.

Graendal is gone.


@all

Brandon made it clear that he was interested in keeping discussions alive, rather than shutting them down. It wasn't long after that, following the question about Graendal's death acquitting her as a suspect in Asmodean's murder, that he paused, then carefully said, "In fact, I'm not going to definitively say that Graendal is dead". My perception on how and why he did so was simply to allow the theorizing to continue. So go ahead, but she's dead.


FSS@2311

This has had some discussion, and I believe that Ramshalan would still have been suffering after-effects if the Compulsion simply dissipated rather than being erased. Also, there is less than 10 minutes between Nynaeve testing him and finding Compulsion, and testing him after the balefiring and he's clean. In your scenario, Graendal would have been gambling on a very precise timetable, as well as guessing Rand's scheme exactly, to make that work. Not veyr plausible.


MasterAlThor@2313

I didn't talk to him about that new easter egg hunt. I can't remember now if I knew of it before, or not until after his San Diego appearance.


FSS@2315

Are you speaking of Tsutama? Might be possible, but there hasn't been one scene where she was involved in anything that could have the mark of darkfriends on it, unlike Danelle.


ElroySkimms@2318

Good point at the end there. Something unique happened when Rand first encountered the Choedan Kal statue outside cairhien. He pulled up the ancient Aiel vow about spitting in Sightblinder's eye on the last day. Where did that come from? Not LTT, it's more recent than the Da'shain. If that hadn't happened in book 3, I'd start to think it was part of Brandon's new goose chase.


Tina.Murrah@2325

The wagons are still in Cairhien, under guard, ever since Moiraine's "death".

Tinkers have recently been gathering near Ebou Dar, because the Seanchan keep the peace strongly, and don't allow them to be mistreated as they are elsewhere.

RE: Ogier. Brandon has said that the Westland Ogier and the Seanchan gardeners do meet. That's all we know.
Tina A
2353. Tinaa
No looney theories tonight, just a quick shout to:

Master Al’Thor @ 2141, Freelancer @ 2156, Amalisa @ 2174, Lannis @2271

Thank you all for your healing thoughts. Am now able - barely - to type by myself (extreeeeemly slowly…), so poor long-suffering hubby does not have to! Bless him, he’s been feeding me cinnamon rolls by the handful.

Is there a lawn chair at the bunker with arm rests? And please may I come rest there awhile?

EEDIT *Good grief, there's been 9 posts since I began typing!*
Birgit
2354. birgit
Those who even knew the name Rhuidean only did because they surmised it was the city in the clouds Jain Farstrider wrote that he caught a glimpse of

That was not Jain but an unnamed peddler 600 years ago who told the story to the author Soran Milo. Milo wrote about it in a book called The Killers of the Black Veil.
TSR ch. 22
Tina A
2354. Tinaa
No looney theories tonight, just a quick shout to:

Master Al’Thor @ 2141, Freelancer @ 2156, Amalisa @ 2174, Lannis @2271

Thank you all for your healing thoughts. Am now able - barely - to type by myself (extreeeeemly slowly…), so poor long-suffering hubby does not have to! Bless him, he’s been feeding me cinnamon rolls by the handful.

Is there a lawn chair at the bunker with arm rests? And please may I come rest there awhile?

EDIT *Good grief, there's been 9 posts since I began typing!*
Wilson Grooms
2355. daggers
@2340 If the building isn't destroyed back in time then how come when Moghedien used balefire to try to kil Nynaeve when she was on the boat the two halves of the boat were spread apart as soon as the balefire hit as if the front continued on and the back stopped before it was actually hit? Just curious because it seems to imply that buildings are effected it as well but I don't think destroying the building Graendal was in actually allowed for the compulsion to be removed since the place didn't exist... although I'm not 100% positive Graendal is actually dead due to her being portrayed as very sneaking I won't be 100% she's actually dead until the dark one confirms it lol
Tina A
2356. Tinaa
Make that 10. And double posts. How did that happen? Must be either bubbles of evil or the dodgy arms...
Stacy Berger
2357. anIceFan
Have we been told definitively that Messana is posing as an Aes Sedai or do we only think that because it makes the most sense?

I would say that by the end of TGS that she is either not an Aes Sedai or that she has left the tower. I think to have her find a way around the oath rod is just too hokey. Also there is no way that she would know about Egwene having them all re-swear the oaths, so she wouldn't have been able to prepare for that. I think she is posing as someone lower than a full sister, not sure exactly how low.
Mark Stokes
2358. Mark_S
@ 2355. daggers

Because the oarsmen (is that a word) were balefired, so all the rowing that happened, suddenly didn't happen. (IIRC)
Matthew Smith
2359. blocksmith
Freelancer@2352

Not to beat a dead horse...but I think there is something very crucial in this scene beyond that Rand channels the TP and your statement helps cement this idea...

Moridin had nothing to do with Semirhage/Elza. Shaidar Haran did, and I cannot begin to speculate about his reasons. He wanted Elza to get the Domination Band to capture Rand. What would he want with the CK access key? Maybe he doesn't want a male forsaken to have a chance at the thing. Couldn't say. That doesn't change the certainty that Moridin did not cause the True Power to be channeled to free Rand, he did it himself.


If your statement about Moridin having nothing to do with Semi/Elza (by this I assume you mean the attempt to capture Rand) is true, and I am not saying its not just making use of it, than Moridin and SH are acting independently for a reason. Could be that the DO feels that Moridin would try to interfere with SH (and Semi/Elza) because Moridin is against capturing Rand and/or Rand being allowed to make use of the TP through him.

Therefore, if Rand's use of the TP was intentional but Moridin had no part in it, then there is serious dischord between the two ultimate lieutenants of the Dark. This is good for Team Light (the dischord that is)and could be the beginning of real questioning of allegiance for Mor/Ishy/Elam. If the use of the TP was unintentional, I stand by my earlier conjecture that it will ultimately help in defeating the DO.

And yes, that horse is now no longer quivering.
Wilson Grooms
2360. alreadymadwithrepeating
anIceFan @2357

Brandon stated that Mesaana is still in the Tower. He also stated that there is a way around the oath rod (Compulsion) with the strong implication that Mesaana has used it.

Clearly, quite a few people (at least all sixty escaped Black Ajah) knew Egwene was going to make them re-swear the oaths.
Wilson Grooms
2361. MatHornsounder
@1025...great one blindillusion that sent shivers down my spine.
I think Rand might actually kill Shaitan(yup i said his name n im fine) in the process drying up the OP and destroying the TP.
By doing this there wont be any wheel of time but the Ages will go on a linear scale (like our time perhaps) and firearms and nuclear weapons becoming weapons of choice.....of course that i dont have to like it(remember somethin) but it may b true.
ALSO i think that THE SEANCHAN HAVE CORRUPTED THE DRAGON PROPHECIES BCOZ WHEN LUTHAIR CROSSED THE ARYTH OCEAN THERE WAS NO SEANCHAN PEOPLE BUT ALL WERE RANDLANDERS AND NO CRYSTAL THRONE.They must have changed the prophecies to give their RULERS MORE POWER IN SEANCHAN.so logically RAND DOESNT HAVE TO KNEEL TO TUON......
WHAT DO U PEOPLE THINK?
Tina Murrah
2362. Tina.Murrah
2330. Man-0-Manetheran
If this "Island of Madmen" is where Sea Folk dumped their male channelers, all we know is that there is/could be a butt-load of future Ashaman. Rand should scoop them up...

UNLESS

THIS is where Demandred has taken up a powerful leadership. Imagine. Him. Building an army of trained male channelers... (shiver)
Wilson Grooms
2363. Adrian Sedai
I think we forget that we are in receipt of knowledge Graendal isn't. Clever though she is and more sneaky than Rand ever could be, she didn't know Rand was standing just outside her fortress. Even if she realised that the victim was part of a wider scheme of Rands she would expect something a lot less brutal and straightforward than 10 minutes after placing the compulsion to be balefired out of existance. There is also no evidence that she knew of the fate of Semirhage and Rands change of heart about hurting women. The problem with clever people is that they can be terribly dumb sometimes. rand has so far taken his time in dealing with the forsaken. Samael was allowed to roam free and do what he liked. Demandred and the others only met their end because they forced Rands hand. Lanfear was removed by Moiraine. It is likely she felt that Rand would bide his time and be on the defensive leaving her time to plot and plan as normal. Rands decision to deal with her immediately and with balefire probably didn't even enter her head. As Rand said, the way to deal with an opponent cleverer than you is to sit down to play their game then punch them in the mouth. clever sneaky people don't expect their opponents to be so crude. It is what us normal people would do however. Very few of us actually plot and scheme to bring someone down, we normally just go for the throat. It's why I love Scott Evil in Austin Powers so much. He is saying what the rest of us are. Why put your enemy in an easily escapable death trap? "Just shoot him. I'll get a gun, we can do it together. It'll be fun."

So much for sitting on the fence eh? I believe that unless Brandon tells us otherwise she is dead. I'm enjoying the theorys of how she could survive though.

And one plot hole that does annoy me. when Egwene had everyone retake the 3 oaths and swear they weren't darkfriends why didn't she also get them to swear they weren't Mesaana. After her experience with Moghedian she knew that the forsaken didn't consider themselves to be darkfriends. They actually looked down on them and despised them as being a bit pathetic, selling themselves to the Dark One with such little reward. Even if Mesaana reswore she wouldn't have been lying as to her she wasn't a darkfriend. Finding out who Mesaana was pretending to be would be at least number 2 on my list, possibly joint first with the identity of the BA. And I don't know about everyone else, but I'll be terribly disapointed if she turns out to be a minor character we need the WoT faq to remind us of who she is and where we saw her. With no evidence whatsoever and just wishful thinking i'm betting a whole shiny penny on Alviarin turning out to be Mesaana :)
Wilson Grooms
2364. alreadymadwithagain
Adrian Sedai @2363

See my post @2331. Brandon basically stated that the Forsaken do consider themselves Darkfriends.

Mesaana is not Alviarin. Alviarin meets Mesaana and is afraid of her.
Wilson Grooms
2365. Adrian Sedai
Alreadymadwithagain @2364

Thanks for that. I missed your post till you pointed it out to me. And all I can say is "bugger!!". I was going by memories of early books where Moggy was taking the micky out of darkfriends and saying she wasn't one. Brandon however is now the ultimate authority so what he says over rules all else. Mind you, I do still consider it to be the most elegant solution without messing about with compulsion and deus ex machina fiddling. If you believe somethings true then as far as the oath is concerned it is true.

And i did say it was wishful thinking about Alviarin being Mesaana. I had completely forgotten abou the scene where Alvy is kneeling to Messy and receiving instruction. So again, "bugger!!".

2 for 2 tonight, I'm doing really well :)


And whats with the captcha thing to post? I know why it is there but some of those words aren't even words!!
Wilson Grooms
2366. alreadymadwithwronganswer
alreadymadwithrepeating @2360
That doesn't answer anIceFan's question. Yes we are told Mesaana is still in the WT, but the proper answer is, nobody knows exactly who or what Mesaana is masquerading as. Most only theorize she might be an AS. I don't.

MatHornsounder @2361
Absolutely agree.
Stacy Berger
2367. anIceFan
AlreadyMad...
Didn't hear Brandon say that. I heard the question about whether forsaken see themselves as DF's. It could have been while I was chasing my 5 year old around Vromens.

Anyway, I still don't think she is AS
Ron Garrison
2368. Man-0-Manetheran
OOOoooooooooooooooo Tina! An army and a throne is what he said. No more "almost Dragon Reborn" for Demi! That would be a major can of whup ass!

When Rand asked Harine, she answered, but then RJ moved on. ::cluedrop::

As we rapidly approach the 2500 mark, it is clear this board is just getting too big. It's too big for those who haven't caught up to even begin to read it and make sense. No wonder there are so many ideas being tossed up, balefired and then repeated. Please Leigh! Let's start the re-reads!

And when we start again, SOMEBODY POST A NOTICE HERE!
Tess Laird
2369. thewindrose
A.P.B

Missing subwoofer...
In T'a'R sometimes takes this form -


Last seen doing 20 things at once...

Also MIA:

Our beloved poster, we miss you so! Please come back, massive twiching starting...
Thomas Keith
2370. insectoid
Isilel @2306: Nicely summed up. It could even have been, say, Moghedien, since we haven't seen her for a while.

Auspicium @2320: I like your theory that the hints possibly point to the unknown male sa'angreal.

Nightbaron @2324: Thanks for agreeing.

AMW @2366: Am confused now... Which alreadymad is which??

Wind @2369: Yes indeed... Leigh, come back to us!
Sam Mickel
2371. Samadai
I can think of one excellent reason for Shaidar Haran not to have them take the access key.

The Forsaken are not to be trusted, even by the Dark One. IF it is true that it is powerful enough to kill him then he damn sure doesn't want the most untrustworthy bunch of Backstabbers in history to have it. Moridin is probably the only one he could "trust with it" but of course he trusts no one. If Semi has a deal with Demandred she could give it to him to use. If any of the Forsaken know that Moridin and the DO's plan involve everyone dying and no more turnings of the wheel they are just the type of people to try and kill Moridin and the DO.
Wilson Grooms
2372. alreadymadwithwrongquestn
alreadymadwithwronganswer @2366

Are you really there? You're just a voice in my head!

I wasn't really addressing that part of anIceFan's question, but I will now.

Graendal's sources told her that Mesaana was an Aes Sedai in the prologue.

Alviarin thinks (ACOS: Prologue), "[Mesaana] must be one of the sisters; surely she was not among servants, bound to labor and sweat." Also, Alviarin thinks that she looks "tantalizingly familiar" when her disguise is disrupted by Shaidar Haran.

When asked if we have actually seen Mesaana's alter ego in the Tower, RJ said, yes, we have [Robert Mee, Bailey's Crossroads signing, VA, January 23, 2003].

RJ's statement is the strongest evidence, in my mind, that Mesaana is not a servant or Novice/Accepted. Of course, we don't know for sure (and we did see Mesaana in white in TGS prologue), but Danelle still seems a likely candidate.
Tina Murrah
2373. Tina.Murrah
@ 2368. Man-0-Manetheran
We're a tough crowd, most of us having read the series more then once. After, what's it now... over 12,000 pages of literature, what a few posts?
:)

There were quite a few earlier posts on the Seachan Traveling & using Portal Stones, and how the ability was lost.I thought I would offer a tid-bit of knowledge on the topic.
In what someone(sorry i couldn't find the post again) cleverly named The White Book of Ugly Art that I will henceforth be referring to as WBUA it states:

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all but the descendants of beasts brought back form parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the breaking, probably in attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While their effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent was eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair's arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of Portal Stones, however, was lost.

Yeah. Lost. Probably around the time they started leashing AS
For anyone who doesn't own WBUA I would recommend it. The artwork leaves a lot to be deisred, but it is helpful for those of us that didn't attend the Columbo School of Reading a Book.
Sam Mickel
2374. Samadai
I just had an interesting idea that is relevant to Rands new sword.

Artur Hawkwings first wife was speculated to be an Aes Sedai (big book of bad art). What if she had a Foretelling that someone in the future would need Hawkwings sword Justice. She could Have told him it needed to be buried in a certain spot or since no one knows where he was buried it could have been buried with him.

I know its crazy but since we have no knowledge it could be possible however improbable.
Wilson Grooms
2375. alreadymadwithWBUA
Tina.Murrah @2373

Heh. On rawsfrj (Usenet) we called it the Big Book of Bad Art (BBoBA).
Patrick Huff
2376. pattack
I had forgotten the chapter in which Perrin, in the wolf dream, follows Slayer to the Tower of Ghenjei. Could it possibly be a tie in for Perrin to enter the Tower in the wolf dream to help Mat, Thom and the one other not specified?

Remember the little man angreal that Rand lost during the battle at Dumai wells? Do we know what happened to it?

To answer a couple of posts, I do believe that the remaining BA, (some of them anyway) will be given a dream Ter' angreal ring to unite their cause and help their planning and I do believe that Egwene and possibly some of the wise ones will deal with them in Tel'aron'rhiod. Mesaana too!!!

Yes, it is always nice to hear about ample bosoms,cleavage, and filmy Domani dresses, but I want to know when does the movie come out LOL!!!!

Switching gears...

I am disturbed at how convenient it is for the Asha'man in Perrins group to suddenly be unable to make gateways. How it is possible that the most powerful beings created, can't find angreals? You would have thought that Mesaana would have at least inquired about the storeroom in the tower and raided it already, considering her lack of firepower among the other forsaken. One more point is how was the rebel Aes sedai camp not aware of the incoming Seanchan attack? Wouldn't they have passed right above the camp on the way to the tower?
Wilson Grooms
2377. Seamus1602
I have to counter those saying that this board is too big/long. I'm an obsessive reader/watcher/consumer of fiction. I love getting into a new epic story. Unlike most of you, I don't have the WoT history to call upon. I picked up TEotW for the first time in May 2009, and I have to say that I love this thread, as well as the rereads, because it consolidates theories and discussions, so I don't end up searching endlessly through chat rooms and message boards. I get to indulge my obsession in one place!


So, on to some wild speculation re: death of the OP and the ongoing turning of the WoT:

First, despite the foreshadowing that does occur, I find it hard to believe that the OP will die at the end of this age for 2 reasons:

-What is the point of having or including the 1000+ novices attached to Egwene (not to mention the seeming importance of Sharina) if they will all become useless and go back to their lives at the end of the LB?

-But the main reason I think the OP will live on is that our age is, according to Thom, the 1st Age. If this is true, that would mean that we have 4 more ages to go to get to our age, all of which would lack channeling.


Because I am convinced that the OP will live into the 4th Age, I also started speculating further how it would eventually die off.

My first question is, what is the process of going from Age 7 to Age 1? Is it the same 'Time of Change', or is it significantly different?

Further, our Age scientists have established a very long non-human history to our world. I specifically wonder about dinosaurs. They obviously exist in our Age (Age 1), but how does that occur? Is the 1st Age a few hundred million years long? Also, how does the theory of human evolution factor into this story? Is that a part of the 1st Age, or is it discounted as a theory by the WoT world?

Given these questions, I believe that the 7th Age ends in some natural phenomenon that in turn creates what we know as The Big Bang, which begins the [very long] 1st Age.

In this theory, channeling could very well exist up until the moment of the end of the 7th Age. In fact, it could exist in the 1st Age, too. What if, per WoT, channeling is possible in our Age, but no one recognizes it as such because the only channeler that exist are wilders (really lucky/skilled/exceptional people). The end of the 1st Age would be likely brought about by the tacit understanding of what channeling is and how to teach it in others.

Which leads me to my last point. If the OP is the manifestation of the Creator, then it must exist is all Ages, which leads me to believe that the ability to channel does not disappear, merely the knowledge of what channeling is and how to do so is lost. We now believe that channeling (read: magic) is impossible. That belief is not so different than all the beliefs AS hold as to what is possible and what is not. Could we 1st Agers be laboring under the same self-delusions as the AS?
Wilson Grooms
2378. Seamus1602
@pattack 2376

I've always assumed that Taim walked away with the fat man with a sword angreal, but I have no evidence of that.

I, too, have always wondered why Mesaana would not have raided the Tower's angreal storerooms. I really hope there's an explanation for this.

The Seanchan approached from the South (over the river), per my understanding. Further, none of the (to)raken would have been visible (flying during the night) until the damane started channeling with visible effect.
Wilson Grooms
2379. Seamus1602
Re: the Prophecies of the Dragon

I have always believed the Seanchan K Cycle to be corrupted, and the corrupted parts will not be fulfilled (Rand won't bow to Fortuona). I agree with those who have stated that the 2 cannot both come true. I'm of the belief that Ishy did not cause the corruption directly. He influenced Hawkwing against AS, but I've always assumed the corruption to be a result of some active politiking on Luthair's part. I would assume that the '9 moons' precedes Luthair's arrival, only because I cannot imagine that he would create a new power and link them to something obviously subservient (he will bind the 9 moons to serve him). Instead, Luthair found an AS that already ruled from the 'Court of the 9 Moons', usurped her power, and decided to change the prophecy to fit his new nation's needs (and pride)

tGS also made me wonder about the distinction between the Seanchan K Cycle and E Cycle (referenced as the closing prophecy). I believe the E Cycle to be an actual, uncorrupted prophecy that existed in Seanchan prior to Luthair's arrival.
Leslie Annis
2380. Lannis
Tinaa @ 2354: re: lawn chairs with arm rests... there's a few recliners kicking around from when the bunker was less party house and more safe house (though always nut house!)... Oh! There's one free right here! ::moves a tutu, some vampire teeth inserts and empty chip bags; dusts off the seat::

Um... guys? I think we need to pass the hat to chip in for a maid... R.Fife is gonna kill us...! XD



Re: The Big Clue... I'm leaning towards the actions of the Tinkers... or lack thereof, if you think of the message scrawled unfinished on the wagon... "Tell the Dragon Reborn" what? And did anyone mention the Tinker slaughter? Does Rand know? We know he understands the link between the Tinkers and the Aiel, so what would he do with the knowledge of the slaughter? I mean, instead of internalize it--you know, before became the schnazy new "Veins of Gold" Rand...

Musings, folks? :)
Wilson Grooms
2381. daggers
2358. Mark_S
If it was the oarsmen being balefired you would think both parts of the ship would have moved the same distance I find it highly unlikely that only the oarsmen in the back were balefired... however I do not have the books with me to double check and see if it was stated in the books that way but usually the oars on a boat run down both sides equally or in smaller boats are in the middle but if it is just the middle I still believe that both parts of the ship would have continued to move at the same rate assuming that the boat had equal depths at both sides... but I guess if the back was heavier it would allow for the back to slow more than the front just not the distance in the books, however RJ had a degree in physics and would know more than I on the subject since I didn't major in that even though I've taken quite a few classes in the subject
Wilson Grooms
2382. Seamus1602
@Lannis 2380

re: The Big Clue (this is the one BWS referenced as coming from 4-6, right?)

I agree that the Tinkers have yet to play their full role, but why would BWS reference all 3 books and not just LoC?

After some thought, I am somewhat to not very convinced that the undiscussed theory has something to do with Taim's getting free and then showing up in Caemlyn to Rand.

We've never gotten details on how Taim escaped, especially considering that Liandrin's BA (whose purported plan it was) were all in Tanchico at the time. So how did he get free?

Further, why does RJ go to the lengths he does to point out how different Taim looks:

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.

The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile, and he rubbed his chin. "I shaved, Bashere." his voice held more than a hint of mockery. "It is hot this far south, or had you not noticed? Hotter than it should be, even here. Do you want proof of me? Shall I channel for you? ... What does everyone not know that you and Mazrim Taim will?"


Given Bashere's lack of recognition and Taim's use of the 3rd person, could BWS's undiscussed theory have something to do with Taim not being Taim?
D.I. Rock
2383. FeatherDancer
2382. Seamus1602


I have always thought Taim was Demandred
Wilson Grooms
2384. Seamus1602
@FeatherDancer 2383

Even with RJ's statement otherwise?
D.I. Rock
2385. FeatherDancer
I was unaware of that statement. If RJ said that I'm sure he's not. I thought that when Rand first met him in LOC sooo long ago.

Dang, now I have something else to puzzle about.
Leslie Annis
2386. Lannis
Seamus @ 2382: re: Tinkers in books 4-6... well, they make a HUGE appearance in book four, helping out with the Battle of the Two Rivers and all... perhaps it's not a message to search all three books, but around those three... and well, we've seen hints of the Tinkers since then--though nothing really concrete from them for storyline--and the comment was along the lines of "it pops up around books four to six... then hints of it come up again later..."

And, well, we know their backstory, but RJ was a pro at weaving things in and out of the narrative... so I'm thinking that the Tinkers aren't just important because they're related to the Aiel and helpful to some of Our Heroes... I think they'll be coming into play big time in the last two books. Just like RJ to pull that thread back around and tie it back in... surprise!

So my money's still on the Tinkers. :)

@ FeatherDancer... re: Taimandred... yeah, no... sorry to help burst that bubble. Taim is not Demandred.
R B
2387. MasterAlThor
Seamus....

I thought about that for a second. The whole Taim looking different thing. I liked it until I had a thought.

If you look through this post you will see a picture of Freelancer.

Now I don't claim to have intimate knowledge of Freelancer but now that I have seen his picture I could pick him up at the airport.

If he was to shave that would be a different story. He would look younger and I wouldn't recognize him.

Logically, Bashere wouldn't have that much to do with Taim. Didn't the AS catch Taim in the first place? Wasn't Cadsuane involved?

Bashere probably would have faced off against him a couple of times but that doesn't mean that he had his face memorized.
R B
2388. MasterAlThor
thewindrose.....

I had a coughing fit when I saw you put out an APB on Subwoofer and Leigh.

You almost killed me. ROFLMAO.

Welcome back RobMRobM. No more conferences for you. You are needed here.

I think it was stated by Wetlandernw that R.Fife has a new bunker, to which Fife would neither confirm nor deny the exsistance of. In short I think we are ok here with the mess.

Let's just clean up after ourselves.
R B
2389. MasterAlThor
Ok so it was suggested that I start assigning people threads to follow. So for those involved we are starting on TSR.

Here are your marching orders.

blocksmith: T'A'R
Bouke: Perrin
Tektonica: Seanchan
MasterAlThor: Egwene

We should just concentrate on the POVs of what we are looking for. So lets start there.

Man-O-Manetheran, little minion....
I am not clear on if you are wanting to join this or not. You can as I will not turn anyone away.

Anyone wanting to help just let me know. If you don't want to be assinged something then just let me know what you are looking for.
Jay Dauro
2390. J.Dauro
Okay, I was going to wait until I caught up, but after reading 1900 comments (I am within 500, at least when I go to bed tonight), I decided to go ahead and post. And I do hope there is a cot in the bunker, because I need a nap. I will bring my Oatmeal Blueberry cookies.

I did enjoy the book. Halfway through my second "listening", and still amazed at scenes.

Some comments

goodben @1225 on Egwene not liking the Asha'man's bonding of AS.

I believe the AS also look askance at someone killing AS. So the Asha'man have a choice, have the AS be upset because they bonded sisters, have the AS be upset because they killed sisters, or die.

Since I wouldn't want to die, I would say it's my choice on the other two, and the AS can just be upset.

What I expect is that by the time we get to having to deal with this, few of the bonded sisters (even Tovaine) are going to want to undo it.

Various.

Thanks for pointing out the relation between Hinderstap and Valhalla. In Valhalla (Odin's hall) the men are training for the last battle, by fighting all day and recovering and feasting all night. Since Odin is one of the main influences behind Mat, possibly we will see a further connection as the LB approaches in WOT. This looks much more like it was planned by RJ, and it may get tied in later. And after Brandon's comment that we will find out more about the three Redarms, I am even more convinced.

forkroot @1454 about something stronger than wine or beer.
Go back to the beginning, TEOTW page 3 - What was Tam delivering to the Winespring Inn for Bel Tine?

Various
BrS has always said that he was not trying to duplicate RJ's exact style. And word choice is one of the major element of style. So far I have not had a problem understanding what is happening, or been flipped out of the story, so it does not bother me.

As always, the comments here are outstanding. It really makes me appreciate the complexity of WoT much better.

Jay
Wilson Grooms
2391. Seamus1602
@MasterAlThor 2387

You make good points that shaving a beard could cause confusion.

But that still leaves the questions as to why RJ would make it a part of the story. It could just be a red herring, but why mention that Taim had a beard vs. not?

That passage has always stuck out to me as something completely unnecessary unless we actually come back to it at some point.

I try to imagine the process RJ went through writing the story. While I don't deny that I am far from perfect at that exercise, it is very hard for me to read that introduction (literally the very page that Taim, a rather large character/antagonist come on scene) without wondering why RJ would take time out of the Rand/Taim interaction to specifically have the one character present with any past history with Taim question whether or not he was Taim. The whole scene could skip that entire section and pick up with Bashere growling "Taim...", as he does after Taim's little speech to him.

In short, the mere inclusion of such a detail screams to me that, at the very least, it is a red herring, and, IMO, is more likely an important story point that will come back up.
Barry T
2392. blindillusion
Seamus1602@2377

I like your reasoning. It makes for an interesting read. I've been one say that the knowledge of the ability to channel will end with this Age. It's nice to see a valid point regarding it not ending just now after all.

Though, are there 7 Ages? I don't recall.

And for your surfing pleasure, as you might not of seen it during the re-read, here is a wonderful post written by our very own Wetlandernw. The links within that comment may aid your search for all things WoT.

Also, I've found this to be helpful as well.

Me? I usually always reference at least one of those links before I post anything

Also, you should really get rid of that ratty old red coat and get yourself a nice, new gray one instead.

Cheers
Henry Loose
2393. schrodinger
@MasterAlThor

sign me up.

i've got a free week coming up with thanksgiving, so assign away.
Wilson Grooms
2394. Seamus1602
@blindillusion 2392

Thanks for the linkage. I love the WOTFAQ (nice work, Leigh, also, as an unabashed Apple fanboy, I have to say that it was pretty awesome to see Erica Sadun, of TUAW fame, as one of the listed authors)

Though, I swear, I had to think about your post for a full 5 minutes before I figured out what you meant by the red/gray. I think I actually have a login name (which I got when reading tGS ch 1), but I'm also a bit [very] lazy.

Unless I am very mistaken, there are 7 ages, as shown by the number of spokes in the WoT.
Roger Powell
2395. forkroot
M A T, thewindrose - now you've gone and done it...sniff...hurt my feelings. Subwoofer doesn't post since Friday and there's an APB; forkroot hasn't posted since the day before that and does anybody care? No...sniff, sniff... oh... wait, are those snickerdoodles I smell? Oh yes, I'd love to pull up a chair.

Meanwhile...Seamus1602@2377 - I'm not sure that Thom definitively identified our Age (mosk vs. merk, etc.) as the First Age.

There was quite a bit of discussion about this earlier. The problem with our present day being the "First Age" is what to do about the Portal Stones? These are identified as being made in an Age BEFORE the Age of Legends. Since we don't have them now, the only way we can be the First Age is if the Portal Stones will be made later in our Age - which in turn implies that we will discover the OP and channeling in this Age.
Wilson Grooms
2396. Hardcore
Maybe the Bashere not recognizing Taim thing is a red herring (and it most likely is), although it does set up the interesting possibility that fake-Taim may actually be Demandred, since if he weren't actually Taim, RJ would have been telling the truth when he said Demandred and Taim weren't the same person. It's a ridiculous stretch, I know, but it certainly opens up a fun line of thought... at least for me. I'm not keeping my hopes up for it to be true, but who knows? I'll just have to wait a year or two to find out.
Wilson Grooms
2397. trattman
2071. Alisonwonderland
2110 RFife

2134. Alisonwonderland

Regarding ‘corrupt prophecies’

I have read these posts and the ones which followed.

Until I read The Gathering Storm, I thought the same as Alisionwonderland – the seanchan prophecy was corrupted because of self interest.

However, I am now not so sure.

Lets look at it this way – which is more likely, the seanchan changed the prophecy for control or Ishmael changed the westlands prophecy deliberately to assist the shadow? He had the opportunity to do so and even refers to ‘a doom yet to come’. While that could be some of the events so far, it could equally be the division of the light because Rand wont surrender.

Next, what is the reason that Rand has to be the one in control of the administration of an empire? He had pretty much said to hell with everyone when I die – don’t care what happens, just have to make it through the last battle (granted that might have changed a bit from the end but he is clearly still pretty fatalistic about his survival chances). What is wrong with a firm empire in control? What about the scene when he sees the seanchan and says apart from what they do to channelers, they are not too bad? What if there is a deal that does away with the a’adam in exchange for Rand swearing to Tuon?

Is it possible that learning to surrender is part of what Rand needs to learn to win? How does that tie into the Saidar issue? He has to link with women to win right? Does he have to ‘surrender’ saidar and ‘fight’ saidin at the same time (admitedly, he does have some practice from the cleansing...)?

Lastly, one of the great themes with the books is that the what the characters think isn’t always right. In fact, I’d say that misinformation and the characters belief in the wrong facts is more common that them knowing the truth. So, aren’t you just buying into the ‘westlands’ view of the prophecies without considering that it is them that are wrong?

Just some thoughts that it might not be as clear as you think.
Bouke de Boer
2398. Bouke
daggers @2381, re: bf'd oarsmen.
IIRC, the BF causes the boat to jump backwards (edit: due to the rowers not having rowed anymore) and because in that space there is now water, the boat sinks immediately. I don't know if the halves of the boat are that significant. For me, the important thing was that the boat was split and that the parts shifted to a place where there was now only water and no diverted water because of the boat. (Does that last sentence even make sense any more?)

MAT @2389: If you need me, I'll be over in that quiet corner of this here bunker. You know, the one with the good lighting and comfy chairs for studying. And yes, those are copies of WoT parts 4-6! Keen of you to notice, have an Oreo!

trattman @2397: While I agree with you that both versions of the Prophecies could easily be the corrupted version, I would like to point out (as it has been done in some previous posts) that the DR being the Messiah-figure of this grand epic does not combine easily with him bowing to and giving ultimate credit to a third party.

Thought: unless you compare the DR to Hercules, who gets his assignments from Euripides... Will that hold?
T C
2399. Freelancer
The bit about Bashere questioning Taim isn't precisely a red herring, as there is a valid reason for it being there. Taim proves who he is by telling Bashere about that couple that were sent to assassinate him, and what he did to them before sending them back to the Saldaean palace. We needed to know that Taim was dangerous and cold-blooded. The rest was a plot device to get there.
Thomas Keith
2400. insectoid
2400...wait, was that an impact tremor? I'm fairly alarmed here. ;)

Hey, here's a fun way to pass the time waiting for a new post! (I swear under the Light that this is not a rickroll.)

*runs back into the bunker for another cookie*
T C
2401. Freelancer
blocksmith@2359

Moridin and Shaidar Haran's relationship is not well defined. Moridin most certainly will do what he wishes as long as he thinks it won't cause him trouble with the dark one. Shaidar Haran, it would seem, is more constrained in some ways, while being more powerful in others.

One proof that they do not follow the same agenda: Moridin did not want Semirhage rescued. He utterly forbade it when meeting with the remaining "free agent" forsaken. Then Shaidar Haran goes and gets her freed.

Among a few questions to ask are how Shaidar Haran knows who is a darkfriend. It has been so since the beginning of the story that darkfriends are easy for the shadow to identify, but we don't know anything of the method. It is possible in Elza's case that Mesaana, who likely learned about all of the Black Aes Sedai, passed along the name of the only BA currently travelling in Rand's group. The next question is how Superfade can know that Elza is the victim of Verin's Compulsion. Is it because she refused to respond to Shaidar Haran in some way? Wouldn't attack the Dragon Reborn, perhaps? We don't know.

Moridin seems resigned to how he expects things are going to play out, and doesn't get too worked up about it. But he surely doesn't like it when Rand suffers pain, and he is forced to share in that discomfort.
Rob Munnelly
2402. RobMRobM
MAT @ 2388. Nice to be back. Only a three day trip to Chicago but didn't fire up my laptop (and, as we know, blackberry is a nonstarter at this point of the thread).

Forkroot - I'll welcome you back. Taishar Massachusetts.

I'm still trying to figure out when I should post my reviews of the next two series on my fantasy/sci-fi reading survey, which are Salatore's Dark Elf Trilogy and Hobbs' Farseer trilogy. I'm overdue for discussing them but I was hoping to wait for the next post from Leigh. (For those following at home, I surveyed the group for five or six top sci-fi fantasy books or series written over the last 25 years - dating back to when I last read the genres omnivorously. The highest vote getters were Feist's Riftwar series, Bujold's Vorkosigan series, several Connie Willis books (Doomsday and To Say Nothing), Hobbs' Farseer books, Salvatore Dark Elf and Weis/Hickman Dragonlance series -- as a bonus, I added in Donaldson's Gap Series.) So, it's Weis/Hickman and then I need to figure out what to read next, either in genre or elsewhere.) Should I post or wait?

I'll hold off until later any discussion of the latest threads.

Rob
Wilson Grooms
2403. alreadymadwithprophecies
trattman @2397
Occam's razor points to the Seanchan version being the corrupted one. It's much easier to conclude the detail about Rand serving the Crystal Throne as a Seanchan Imperial retcon than to say that all the versions Rand read plus all the versions on Seandar prior to Luthair's arrival, all of which never mention the Dragon Reborn kneeling to the Crystal throne as incorrect. A Seanchan general corroborates that the Seanchan version is unique in this regard. Though of course, his conclusion went the other way.

Re: Min's viewing
Didn't Min view Nynaeve weeping over a grave? Bad tidings?
Leslie Annis
2404. Lannis
trattman @ 2397: re: corrupt Kareathon prophecies... wow... see? This is why I participate in the reread... right there? Right there?! Yeah, you kinda just blew my mind. Even just the concept of that being a possibility completely missed me... so simple and yet so effective... call me stunned.
Matthew Smith
2405. blocksmith
MAT@2389

The engineer in me wants to fully evaluate the entire subject before presenting a summary of findings...the reader in me wants to post as possible "clues" become evident.

I can feel the conflict building within me.

I will commence the review this weekend...

A quick note on Graendal that I have not seen mentioned before that may reinforce her death...in the prologue, just before the meeting with Moridin, Graendal remarks

"She turned her attention away from the messenger-if she couldn't have him, then she wasn't interested in him-and looked through the open gateway. She hated being forced to meet with one of the other Chosen on their terms. She hated leaving her stronghold and her pets."

Loath to leave=more chance she was there during balefiring=six feet under.

As to Demandred's identity...we may also have a hint in the prologue...anyone remember a character(s) that never smiles or enjoys anything?

She definitely would have been loath to leave her fortress even after discovery.

Freelancer@2401

Is the attempted rescue by SH the first time we have disobeying a direct order occurring (understanding that SH was not at the Forsaken social in the prologue) between Moridin and SH? I get a sense of forshadowing from Moridin when rereading the interchange with Mesaana regarding freeing Semi

"Perhaps the Great Lord will find some use for her in the coming weeks, but that is his to determine".

Oh great, now I'm back to thinking the whole thing was a setup of Semi to get Rand to use the TP.
Wilson Grooms
2406. Seamus1602
@Freelancer 2399

Good reasoning. I'm not sure if it's my desire to be right about this or actual reason that is still pushing me to believe that Bashere not recognizing Taim has greater significance. I'm still somewhat clinging to Taim referring to himself in the 3rd person, something, I believe, he's never done since. But I will admit that the inclusion of Musar and Hachari and their wives does give a reason for the passage (though that info could as easily have been presented by Bashere when Rand told him of the amnesty, or on their walk to meet Taim, leaving out the unrecognizable Taim). But again, I'm not sure if that thought comes from a desire to be right or actual reason.

My first question, how Taim escaped, still bugs me, however. It may be as simple as a BA plot from within the WT, but the complete lack of direct info about his escape has always struck me as something we may come back to.

The above paragraph is all speculation, not evidence, so I'll admit that this theory doesn't appear to hold water as BWS's Big Undiscussed Theory, as I previously stated. Darn.
Wilson Grooms
2407. Dreamwolf
Re: Freelancer 2411 about how Shadar Haran knows who is a DF.

In the first books its frequently mentioned that you shouldn't speak Baalzamon or Shaitan's name but use euphemisms as otherwise he would be aware of you! If that's the case the dark one certainly knows everyone who has sworn to follow him and therefore Shadar Haran knows.

About what we missed in book 4... etc, I was always curious how the fact that we learned that there were multiple access keys made to the Choedan Kal I think six or twelve to each. It's a moot point now that the CK is destroyed but it would still be rather annoying for e.g. Demandred if he had have and used one the last year.

Re Brandons answer about the oath rod and compulsion. If we go back to the original use of the binder i.e oath rod it seems clear that it uses a variant of compulsion and that you certainly aren't supposed to be able to counter it personally but what if you had a accomplice who could remove the weave. That could be countered by a oath not to ask anyones help with countering the original oaths but no such oaths are used now.

My guess is that the current prohibition on compulsion has made the AS forget a lot of ancillary knowledge about "psychic surgery" and "memory edits" that is possible but border to close to compulsion.

Finally how could SH teach Elza weaves to counter wards, does he channel saidar? or was Elza given access to the true source?

Leigh we miss you
Ian Walker
2408. Auspicium
@2377 Seamus1602

As a Man of Science, I have to say I really like the explaination you give. Your musings on the Existential Metaphysics of Reality With Respect to the One Power would make the White Ajah proud.

Also its nice to have another young'in here. While I've got you beat by about 2 years (which, relatively, can be a lot or a little) I often feel I've come decades late to the party. Newbies Unite!

@2395 forkroot

A way around the Portal Stone problem is to say that the version of the First Age that preceded the Third Age we know is a slightly different version than our own First Age. That is to say, we live in a First Age, during a different cycle, or turning of the Wheel and the Third Age that follows our age will be slightly different from the Third Age we're used to from the books.

So maybe in their turning of the Wheel they have Portal Stones and in this one we have heiroglyphics and/or the Rosetta Stone and such. Every Age can't be exactly the same during each turning after all. Hell, we could even be a First Age that occurs during a cycle where Ishamael leads the Shadow to triumph (he has said it happened, though apparently without the Dark One destroying the Wheel or else that would've been the end.)

If we're really the First Age of course.

Actually that brings me to another point. If, as Ishy says, they've fought this battle a thousand times and sometimes Ishy was the victor, why didn't it end there? Obviously the DO failed to break the Wheel; so why is it a big concern this time around? Why can he (the DO) do this during this turning but not the ones where Ishy wins?


@ insectoid 2400

My browser at work won't let me open the link. However thanks to the "ataricommunities" web address I can be reasonably sure it's "The Wheel of Time" by Isam. Am I correct?

If so, give it a read if you haven't already people. It's a good time indeed.
Bouke de Boer
2409. Bouke
Blocksmith @2405:
As to Demandred's identity...we may also have a hint in the prologue...anyone remember a character(s) that never smiles or enjoys anything?


I can think of two people who meet these criteria, Mazrim Taim and possibly Talmanes. The first falls off by RJ-default, the second laughs at a couple of occassions in TGS (right?).
Either way, they both have mucho screentime, so fall off anyway...


Dreamwolf @2407:
In the first books its frequently mentioned that you shouldn't speak Baalzamon or Shaitan's name but use euphemisms as otherwise he would be aware of you!


Ba'alzamon is the Trolloc name for Ishy, not for the Dark One. IIRC, we get this from one of Verin's POVs.

edit: see also Man-o-Manetheren @1587


Auspicium @2408:
Why can he (the DO) do this during this turning but not the ones where Ishy wins?


Probably, the DO has a learning curve that is impossible for the human mind to grasp...
Wilson Grooms
2410. little minion
MasterAlThor@2389:

I'm in! I will do my best!
Cheryl
2411. First Selector
@2406:
IIRC Taim's mention of the two Saldaeans and their wives (and his attitude while discussing it) also created a lot of tension in the room that Rand then had to diffuse. Considering that, in addition to what Freelancer said, it makes sense as a literary device that RJ included the interchange.
Tina Murrah
2412. Tina.Murrah
@2377 Seamus1602
I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean that the OP or the TP would be destroyed, only that using both the seal the DO's prison would lock access to them behind the seal as well. (Therefore taking some catastrophic event such as nuclear warfare or ... a giant meteor hitting the earth to weaken the seal again for another turning of The Wheel)

Your argument about the all the new novices being brought to the WT has me rethinking this theory though. Your logic is undeniable; I’d have to agree with 2408. Auspicium

Back to Demandred, and I can’t say why I’m harping on this, but wasn’t it established that his secret identity hasn’t had any on-screen time yet? I’m still among those thinking he is in Shara or my own pet theory King of the Island of Madmen
Cheryl
2413. First Selector
@2412 Re Demandred
RJ said after COT that Demandred's alter ego hadn't been on-screen. So I guess he could've been on-screen in KOD or TGS. But IMO, we still haven't seen him.
Tina Murrah
2414. Tina.Murrah
@ 2413
There arent any new characters introduced for the first time in KOD or TGS are there?

I'm thinking Demandred is going to have to come out guns blazing because the first glimpse we have of any new male character everyone is going to jump all over him as Demandred, I dont think there is any hiding at this point.
R B
2415. MasterAlThor
I have to let you guys know that I am coming down with something. I will be out of commition for the next few days.

All of you please be well.

PS...I haven't had any pig or been bitten by any birds, so I should be ok in the next few days.
Tess Laird
2416. thewindrose
Sorry to offend Forkroot - you know I look forward to your posts. But we are talking about sub - number one poster extraordinaire:

1: subwoofer;763;105604;138.0

14: forkroot;235;30547;129.0

I think he is even 100 posts above all of the alreadymads put together(second place).

I am just hoping he wasn't hanging out with Graendal when she and her lodge became toast. Maybe he got locked into the bunkers bathroom and can't get out?

MasterAlThor - I am down for perusing 4-6, kids are going to the in laws until next Wednesday. I don't want to narrow down, probably search different sites and see what may be missing that way, checking out what others are coming up with here?
Sam Mickel
2417. Samadai
M A T,
Sleep well and wake.

Due to a change in plans I am going to the signing in Portland OR tonight.
So if you have any questions let me know.

I am going to ask if Demandreds alter ego has been seen in the last 2 books and/or if his alter ego has been mentioned in the books( to find out if it could be the King of Murandy).

Sorry about the short notice.

edit for; I have about five hours between now and when I am internet accessless
Ron Garrison
2418. Man-0-Manetheran
M A T: Thank the Creator that I continued reading down to "little minion's" post (2410) and didn't balefire you immediately. In your post at 2389, it looked like you were referring to me as a little minion, and I bow to no one! OK, maybe Freelancer.

I've got some time off over Thanksgiving, and I'll look into the Tinkers, Ogier, etc. in Books 4 and 6. I'll appreciate anyone else who is interested to make sure I don't overlook anything.
Wilson Grooms
2419. alreadymadwithkneeling
Bouke @2409
Taim did enjoy saying "kneel to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt".
R B
2420. MasterAlThor
Samadai....

Please ask about the effects of the usage of the Bowl of Winds. Will we see what the end results of its usage are?

to everyone helping with the BIG clue, thanks.
Just pick something and look away. After Turkey Day we should post findings.

Thanks for the well wishes.
Jacy Clark
2421. Amalisa
What are we researching in 4-6? I have tons of time on my hands atm and will be glad to help...

Edit: Saw M A T's post. *grumbles at the excrutiatingly slow page load* "Big Clue". Roger that.
Ron Garrison
2422. Man-0-Manetheran
Samadi - Here's a question! Ask if we will learn more about the Island of Madmen in the upcoming books.

M A T - Sending you Healing. Stay warm and eat cookies!

OK - I've been meditating on the OATH ROD:

From BWS's answer, it is confirmed that the Oath Rod works with Compulsion. And that makes perfect sense. When one swears on the Rod, it compels the user to follow their oath.

And what is Compulsion? It is a weave - plain and simple it is just another weave. We know that weaves can be warded against. Just like a ward against evesdropping or a ward to protect your dreams from someone. I think it is just as simple as Mesaana warding herself against Compulsion. And for someone who's hung around Graendal for a few hundred/thousand years, it would be a good ward to know!

IIRC, most of the AS don't even know how the Oath Rod works, and if she inverted the weaves, they certainly wouldn't have a clue what was going on. With her ward in place, she could lie like a rug and the Compulsion weave wouldn't effect her in the least.
Sam Mickel
2423. Samadai
M A T and M O M,

I have your questions down. Anyone else for some questions for Brandon Sanderson at tonights signing?
Cheryl
2424. First Selector
@2414
Well not many anyway. But there were some. For example, there was a Whitecloak mentioned in the KOD prologue (Kashigar or something similar). Someone in the re-reads thought he could be Demandred. (Though I'd vote it's not.) Can't think of any other characters introduced OTTOMH.
Jacy Clark
2425. Amalisa
*weaves a Healing for Master al'Thor*

Samadai... I'm thinking of Egwene's Dream of having her head on the block, with the ax falling. Would you please ask him if she is still in that kind of danger (maybe when it comes to light that she'd kept Moghedien as a captive?) or if her "rescue" from the Tower meant that dream was fulfilled?
Barry T
2426. blindillusion
Samadai....

You should invite Mr Sanderson to the bunker.
Rob Munnelly
2427. RobMRobM
2423 - will we find out source of Morgase's knowledge of Two Rivers speech in EOTW?

Rob *whistling*
Tina Murrah
2428. Tina.Murrah
I second the motion: 2422. Man-0-Manetheran
(Thanks!)

I almost don't want to ask I want to wait abe BE RIGHT!
Guillaume Bergeron
2429. Nightbaron
Samadai @2423

You could try asking if Shara and/or the Island of Madmen will play a big part during Tarmon Gai'don (which might help with the Demandred theories).

How about asking if Moridin was aware of SH's plan with Semirhage?

I'd also like the clarification on whether the Big Clue (TM) is in Books 4 TO 6, or in books 4 AND 6. Since I saw a quote earlier, my impression is that the hints are in 4 AND 6, not 4 TO 6.
Sam Mickel
2430. Samadai
Amalisa, Blindillusion, RobM,

I have your questions down. If were inviting Brandon we better clean up the bunker and set up the story telling chair in the front. I want to sit in the first row, please.

Anymore questions for the signing tonight?

I will take pictures and If I can figure out how to do it might even run it live on my computer.
Tess Laird
2431. thewindrose
Samadai - Enjoy your tome with BWS - sounds like he is a great person to meet.

If you have a chance maybe ask about Pevara, Tarna and the 4 other Reds that went to ask Taim to bond Ashaman as warders. 13/13 action happen to them?

Is there a Forsaken(like Cyndane) close to Elayne at present time(end of KOD). My thoughts are Sylvase.

Thanks - and have a good time. Look forward to what ever info you come back with!
Guillaume Bergeron
2432. Nightbaron
I have another loony theory to share, one that might be debunked easily as I just thought of it, but I lent tGS to a friend so I can't research it to see if it has any feet.

My question is: do we have any proof, through another of her PoV or during the actual conversation, that Mat actually meets up with Verin herself?

I ask this because we had been told in the beginning that Moghedien and Cyndane were in the area, looking for Mat and Perrin. When Mat heard of the sketches and that there was a lady looking for him, I was convinced Mat was on his way to meet one of the Forsaken. But then it turned out to be Verin. But could it not have been her? Could it have been Cyndane/Moghedien in disguise?

I know, I know, it's not only a loony theory, it's not very elegant, but it'd be interesting if Mat ends up considering a mission for Verin which is really work for a Forsaken. It would also explain away the Great Ta'veren Pull tale which I had trouble buying.

This will probably be debunked quite easily, but I thought it was still an interesting idea, and what else do we have to talk about? :P
Jeremy Preacher
2433. jpreacher
Nightbaron - It's possible that things are not as they seem, but the text til now doesn't support it, I think. The Forsaken are under pretty strict orders to kill Mat and Perrin, not send them off with notes they may or may not open. Cyndane and Moghedian in particular are in no position to improvise.

IIRC, there's no Verin-POV stuff that'd be hard proof, but Mat does see that she has several letters similar to the one she gives him, and Verin tells Egwene that she's made arrangements to set various plans in motion. That's internally consistent, at least.
Cheryl
2434. First Selector
@2432
Tomas is with Verin when she meets Mat. Sorry to debunk your theory. :)
Sam Mickel
2435. Samadai
Nightbaron and Thewindrose,

I have your questions. I am sure I will have a great time tonight and will relay it all back to everyone tomorrow.

Anyone else have any questions for Mr. Sanderson for tonights signing in Portland?

Are any of the posters on here beside myself going? Would you like to meet up?

Let me know
Sam Mickel
2436. Samadai
If anyone from Eugene/Springfield area needs a ride I have 2 seats available
Tess Laird
2437. thewindrose
Some Storm leader q/a's from kcf on 13D


Q: Did Rand directly have the DO’s permission to channel the TP?

A: It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DO’s direct permission.

This lead to lots of discussion about the whole Semirhage death scene. Basically, she felt betrayed by the DO, and Brandon says she’s a very astute person. Brandon also said that Moridin and the DO are on the same page with most things and that Moridin is the most trustworthy forsaken for the DO.
My interpretation is that Rand channeled the TP through the link with Moridin, but this was not discussed. Also it was strongly implied that idea that DO served Semirhage up on a platter for Rand to balefire is true.

Q: You mention that SH has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?

A: SH needs a minion to most of his work for him. Elza was essential to SH in getting things done.

This lead to lots of discussion about swearing to the shadow – basically, it’s a very bad idea and you forfeit some very basic protections when you do. SH has special power over those that swear to the DO, and the forsaken in particular. I asked about Alvairin’s special mark, and he said SH has similar power over her. The implication is that there are lots of ramifications for swearing to the DO. Brandon mentioned that this makes Verin all the more remarkable.
Wilson Grooms
2438. Adrian Sedai
Nightbaron @2432

The character we saw on screen was consistant with the verin we know and love. I didn't feel anything was off, even taking into account the differences in RJ and BWS writing styles. The taveren pull story could have been true or a complete pile of ant poo as we know for a fact now Verin could lie whenever it suited her.

We do have to accept that Brandon is talented and awesome, but at times a tad clunkier than RJ in his writing. I'm not criticising, as I said before I think he did an awesome job. There is always a danger that anyone trying to complete a work as beloved as this will provoke a lot of fan ire. The fact that we are here 2400 posts into a discussion and everyone loves the guy shows what a good choice he was.
Rich Gold
2439. richg25
556. Aye Aye Sedai - makes a good point about the ageless look - it's something I've wondered - if the BA have removed their oaths, how do they still have the ageless look? Do the black oaths have the equivalent effect? Does the oath rod (or it's black equivalent) basically make you stretched like with a face-lift?
Rich Gold
2440. richg25
>> 450. BillinHI - I really hope someone can show her (and the rest of the Seanchan) the error of their ways re damane & dacovale.

I've often felt that the argument that the Seanchan could understand is that they are thieves. They are stealing a servant that is already "owned" by someone else - in this case, the Creator or "the Light". Perhaps as the "Light Incarnate", that's how Rand might be able to convince them.
Wilson Grooms
2441. alreadymadwithagelesslook
richg25 @2439
Swearing on the Oath Rod causes the ageless look. Black Ajah remove the original 3 and replace it with their own set of Oaths, still on the Oath Rod, so they still look ageless.
Joseph Blaidd
2442. SteelBlaidd
Samadai@2417

Questions:
1. Did RJ leave an explicit record of how he used symbols in the books (colors, artifacts, people, places, animals, etc.). For example white is often used to represent the healing sleep and "death" of winter that leads to rebirth while black is the final death of the Dark One.

2. Did Egwene squeaze Moghedene for infomation about T'A'R as well as new weaves.
T C
2443. Freelancer
blocksmith@2405

Shaidar Haran is not subject to Moridin, as if he were another forsaken. So what we see in the Superfade freeing Semirhage is a rift of agendas among the heirarchy of the shadow. That isn't on a par with disobedience.

As for the concept that freeing Semirhage is a setup to induce Rand to access the True Power, let's follow that one more time...

First, a supposition on my part. Moridin has told nobody, not even the dark one (and therefore not Shaidar Haran), that there is a connection between them of any kind. I cannot believe that the dark one would be pleased to know of it, so it has been Moridin's secret ever since Sammael got Mashadar'd. With that as a given (and yes, still subject to debate):

1. Moridin want Semirhage to stay captive because of the pain she caused him indirectly.(Remember, selfish and petty, that's the forsaken per Verin)

2. Moridin admits that he doesn't fully understand the "bond" between he and Rand.

3. Moridin has no method of deducing that Rand can access the True Power via his Nae'blis permission.

Now, even if 2 & 3 were incorrect, and Moridin knew exactly how Rand could get at the True Power, he still would have had to tell Shaidar Haran, and agreed to discard his previous stance to leave Semirhage a prisoner, in order for ANY scenario which has an agent of the shadow plotting to make Rand channel the concentrated evil.

What we do know of the story to this point, with a dash of Occam and a pinch of forsaken POVs, doesn't mix to produce such a concoction.


Seamus1602@2406

Joiya Amico, the Black sister who was stilled in the Stone during the SGs escape (uh, thanks Mat!), told them that Liandrin planned to free Taim, and set him on a path of destruction in Rand's name. Since the other intel gained by questioning those Blacks in Tear turned out to be valid (something in Tanchico dangerous to Rand, aka Domination Band), there is good reason to give weight to this being what happened, the Black did it. Remember that two Aes Sedai were killed when Taim was freed. That's not easy to do to sisters who are holding a fulltime shield on a false dragon who can channel.


Man-o-Manetheran@2418

Only a fool would bow down to me. I do not think you are a fool. Maybe I should ask Nynaeve.


Samadai

Whatever you do, don't drop my name. He'll probably run screaming if he thinks another of Leigh's addicts is stalking him.
Uhh, not that I am.

Q. What did Moridin sense when Rand channeled the True Power through his Nae'blis access?

Q. Did Shaidar Haran know that Moridin had forbidden the forsaken from attempting to rescue Graendal? Do they communicate at all lately?
Wilson Grooms
2444. FirstTimeCommenter
Freelancer @2401


"It is possible in Elza's case that Mesaana, who likely learned about all of the Black Aes Sedai, passed along the name of the only BA currently travelling in Rand's group."


I thought there was one more black sister with Rand. I don't my books with me right now, but i think it was a white that was with Rand that was black. The one that was suppose to be beautiful.

I could be wrong, hopefully somebody can verify this.
Ron Garrison
2445. Man-0-Manetheran
Freelancer @2443
Nyn and I go way back, so ask away. She's completely stopped pulling her braid ever since I told her that I thought Lisa Kudrow should play her in the movie.

Hmmmm. 2445: The 500th anniversary of my birth. And I've still got that ageless look.
Wilson Grooms
2446. lindal
Seriously – 2400 comments. I was going to politely read them all before commenting, but phew…
Can someone corroborate the following interpretations:
The Seanchan have Elaida and therefore have Traveling?
Nynaeve actually quit whining?
So when Verin used compulsion on Beldeine and Katerine several books ago, was she confirming that they were black ajah or was she giving them some sort of marching orders? Both Katerine and Beldeine are MIA by the end of TGS.
Do you think Rand recognized the sword from his time in the crystal columns in Rhuidean? If so, it could be a sword from the AOL, when dragons weren’t reviled.
I don’t think we know enough yet to think that all of the special forces Seanchan are gone/ dead.
Sam Mickel
2447. Samadai
FirstTimeCommenter,
It was Egwene when she was thinking about black sisters. She thought of one Name( I can't remember it) that was black along with Elza That had sworn to Rand. But she is not with Rand she is in Caihien with the sisters that stayed there.

Freelancer,
I was going to mention you as Freelancer anyways( I don't think I ever caught your name) I am sure he will get a kick out of us crazies.
I assume you meant Semi and not Graendal
Sam Mickel
2448. Samadai
I have a little more time for more questions for Brandon at the signing in Portland tonight.
Wilson Grooms
2449. Dedicated
lindal @2446

The Seanchan do have Elaida, and call her Suffa. I assume that they will soon have Traveling and all of the other weaves that Beonine taught Elaida.
I doubt that Nynaeve quit whining permanently, but she has on a few occasions including in this book.
I think Verin used compulsion to give the sisters instructions that would help Rand. She may have used it as well to confirm the identities of Black sisters, but that is not certain.
The sword Rand is carrying seems likely to be Artur Hawkwings sword Justice. He saw that sword at Falme, which would explain why he thought of it while on the way to talk to Tuon. Besides it is as far as I can remember the only special sword mentioned anywhere in WOT.
I am fairly certain that not all of the Seanchan special forces are gone. Four are not accounted for as of the end of tGS, and they can live for weeks yet. And there are prophecies concerning Egwene that have not yet been fulfilled about her life being in danger and her not seeing the danger. That may be Messana, or it may be the Seanchan assasins.
Rich Gold
2450. richg25
regarding Graendel speculations - alive or dead? I just think that at this point, there isn't enough time to keep spinning out more plot threads - some of these have to wrap up, so from that stand point, I think she's gone.
Wilson Grooms
2451. Baravius
Great review LB. I've been waiting for weeks to read it because I've had to work around my life to listen to the thirty three hours of audiobook.

Awesome Awesomeness!!! This is probably one of the top three books in the series for me behind only EoTW and TDR. The scene with Tam, though infuriating, was amazing and in fact the last fourth of the book was nothing but awesomeness.

Verin: I've been waiting for this reveal for soooo long. I'm actually surprised it came in this book though. I was anticipating longer. I've liked her for so long and now I feel so vindicated in that. She was better than I thought and her scene was the first time in the series that I've ever teared up.

Rand: Wow! I hope the darkest days are past as they seem to be. I couldn't believe the TP thing and I'm still divided on it. I lean to the direction of it having something to do with Moridin though. I think that that is what the darkness people see around him is too. I was more shocked about the "almost killing Far Madding" thing than anything else. The borderlanders are the good guys even if their leaders aren't. The almost killing Min and the almost killing Tam things were the most *headdesk* things that have happened in the entire series to me. I was going nuts on both of those. (Kudos to Tam for handling it well) The end with Rand was strange to me. I didn't think it was anticlimactic at all. It only had one character but it reaked of disaster until Rand worked things out. There was some obvious foreshadowing earlier in the book with Rand's thoughts on the Choedan Kal (sp.?). I never for a second believed he might actually destroy the pattern but the hand of the creator slapping him off the side of DM did cross my mind. Overall, one of the best scenes ever IMO.

Egwene: FINALLY!! All of her scenes were stinkin' wonderful IMO. Things couldn't have happened better and now all she needs to do is stop by Emond's Field for tea at the Winespring. I think Mesaana may no longer be a sister. I don't think she is one of the three, that's for sure. Egwene is a woman now and definitely is Amyrlin. Our little innkeeper's daughter has grown up.

Siuan and Bryne: Siuan really ticked me off by disobeying Egwene. I don't think it was so much that she was wrong but that I knew Egwene was okay. Bryne is one of my favorite characters and will be a great balance to her. I'm glad that line is finally done with.

Perrin: He was frustrating. I felt like I was showed the scenes I couldn't care less about and only glimpsed the Galad scene which was annoying. Faile was pretty cool and the scene around the fire was much needed closure. Perrin is being Randish with Hopper and that gets on my nerves especially since generally Perrin is my favorite character. Redemption had better be good.

Mat: I loved it. The very first conversation with him seemed forced but after that it flowed nicely. I must be the only one who thoroughly enjoyed Henderstap (sp.?). A little zombie diversion was much needed amidst Rand's darkness and Egwene's pins and needles. That's really all Mat was in this book and I don't have a problem with that. RJ used Mat and Nyneave in that way all the time. On a side note, I thought BS wrote Talmones better than RJ. At least he seemed more real. I wish there had been more Thom and Noal though.

Fortuona: not crazy about the name sister, but that's up to you I guess. I thought Mat was supposed to teach her that she isn't god incarnate just because she is the seanchan golden child. She is the one seanchan that should know better than to think they have a right to something some ancestor conquered 1000 years ago. Seriously... I guess it's probably realistic though and I should accept it. Mark my words, her poo stinks and she is going to find out soon. Kudos on avoiding the Taveren swirl though.

Cadsuane: I'm going to make somebody mad here. BS is a great writer. I've read all of his published stuff and I love it. Warbreaker is one of my favorite books. He didn't write Cadsuane all that well IMO. He has said he doesn't like her and I think that has shown through here. The only scene where she really felt like Cads to me was the one where she spanked Mogs.

Tam: has risen to my top five favorite characters even if he is a prototypical father figure to virtually everyone around him. His conversation with Rand was one of the best in WOT until rand went nuts. I hope he can forgive Rand someday.

Overall, great book. Sorry for the diatribe. I left some stuff out still though.
Guillaume Bergeron
2452. Nightbaron
lindal @2446

I don't recall Beldeine being missing at the end of tGS. We had the scene with her, Cadsuane and Min, I believe we learned that she bonded Karldin the Asha'man, but I don't recall anything suggesting that she's Black Ajah.
Wilson Grooms
2453. Aneid
2451. Baravius

Tam: has risen to my top five favorite characters even if he is a prototypical father figure to virtually everyone around him. His conversation with Rand was one of the best in WOT until rand went nuts. I hope he can forgive Rand someday.

That is the great thing about being a father (step or not) there is no need for forgiveness there is only love.

I can guarantee, if Tam is written correctly he is torn up inside, not for what Rand did, but because he will believe, and I am this way, that he should have been there for Rand. He should have done more to find Rand. He should not have stopped until he found his son and helped him through this.

I know it makes no logical sense, but I will get no argument I wager from parents, Tam probably feels like there was something more he could have done, he should have done. When Rand and Tam meet again it will be an apology fest with both apologizing and in turn telling each other they have nothing to apologize for
M. Kristall
2454. The Ninth Horse
No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.
It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DO’s direct permission.

Rand (as an individual) does not have the Dark One's permission to channel the True Power
Moridin does
Rand has permission by default because Moridin does
If the Dark One were aware of this, either Moridin's permission would be rescinded or Rand would have permission (following the logic that if the Dark One is aware and can do something about it but does not then permission is implicitly granted)
Semirhage was not freed so that Rand would channel the True Power

Also it was strongly implied that idea that DO served Semirhage up on a platter for Rand to balefire is true.
(from thewindrose@2437)
If the Dark One intended for Rand to Balefire Semirhage then she was more successful in her second attempt than she was expected to be.
What is the likelihood that if Rand sees someone approaching him with a Domination Band in the future, he will instinctively Balefire them?
Ron Garrison
2455. Man-0-Manetheran
Sam - Have fun tonight!

I finally found the reference to the map of the "Land of Madmen". It is in the Big White Book, The World of Robert Jordan’s the Wheel of Time.
Alice A
2456. Wetlandernw
Oh, here's a ROFL for y'all. From Brandon's twitter:
Last night at the signing a guy had me sign one of the leatherbound limited edition TGS. I was very careful, saying, "Tell me exactly what you want. I don't want to mess up a $250 book." The woman with him gasped loudly and said. "WHAT?"
Lesson: dudes, if you're going to buy an expensive book without telling your wife what it cost, give me a heads up not to say anything...
Hah! I'll bet if anyone else hands him a leatherbound, he won't say anything about the price anyway!
Tricia Irish
2457. Tektonica
Whew, finally caught up. Keeping current is exhausting. We may never get dinner around here! Let alone cookies for the bunker!

Samadai....have fun for all of us tonight. If you get a chance, could you ask if the Moridan/Rand/LTT is the Big 3 merger?

Master AlThor@2389

I'm on board for the Seanchan POV in 4-6...I'll dig out my old marked up paperbacks this weekend and get going. Thanks!

And Feel Better. Where's Nynaeve when you need her? Hit it with mega Vit.C until she shows up.

Freelancer@2401

Isn't there a comment made by SH when he is "retraining" Arangar and Osengar about wanting to be more independent from the DO....ie: have his own life, so to speak? I totally agree that there is no communication btwn SH as the DO's avatar and Moridan and the rest of the Forsaken.

RobM

Where do you post about the various Fantasy series? You mentioned two of my all time Faves in your short list of recommendations....Just finished the complete Feist, and Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy is perhaps my very Fave, after the WOT, of course! I'd love to have somewhere to discuss these books/characters, as it's lonely in Fantasyland down here on the beach....the hubby does murder mysteries. Do you have another cyber life?
Wilson Grooms
2458. alreadymadwithmadRand
lindal @2446
I'm of the camp that the dragon marked sword was LTT's. Who else would carry a dragon marked sword? Rand simply remembers it from his own memories because he claims everything sword-related as his. Channeling and history related memories he pushes onto LTT. As the book progressed we see him begin to continually use the first person even when referring to LTT's memories. The sword was only the precursor.
Rob Sellers
2459. RobSS
#2458

I agree... Got to be LTT's

Enough with the "Justice"
Henry Loose
2460. schrodinger
wait... brainstorm... since LTT and artur hawkwing are from different ages... you see where i'm going with this? it could be both of theirs!
Wilson Grooms
2461. alreadymadwithjustice
schrodinger @2460
Possible of course, however if it had been Justice, don't you think someone would have mentioned by now the strange animal etched on Justice?
Leslie Annis
2462. Lannis
blocksmith @ 2405: re: Graendal's loathing to leave...

She turned her attention away from the messenger-if she couldn't have him, then she wasn't interested in him-and looked through the open gateway. She hated being forced to meet with one of the other Chosen on their terms. She hated leaving her stronghold and her pets.


Your assessment, blocksmith, is: Loath to leave=more chance she was there during balefiring=six feet under. At the risk of sounding like a certain someone arguing about the existence of LTT, um, I'd take the same passage you've quoted and say that it seems like it could indicate that Moridin has the ability to coax her out of hiding, regardless of her lack of motivation to do so, and could in fact be a hint that she wasn't in her stronghold.

Now, that said, this is just a thought that struck me, so I'm saying it. But really, I'm in the same camp as you, blocksmith: she dead. She dead dead.

(Aaaaand for my next trick, I'll contradict myself...)

Now, there's a chance (slim, I'll say) that she's got a BA sister in there weaving compulsion on any old messenger/stranger that walks through the door, thereby allowing Graendal to be in a different place, letting Rand balefire the palace/house on the lake/whatever and Nynaeve delve and discover no more compulsion in Dippity Court Dude...

Again, I think Graendal's gone... someone mentioned that it's too late in the series to bring about new plot threads, and I think they're right... (I apologize for not checking the name, but it's been a long day...)

Cheers! :)
Wilson Grooms
2463. AndrewB
After digesting TGS (by which I mean that I read the book, completed a re-read and read most of the postings here), I have one or two disappointments (the reason for the hesitation between 1 or 2 will be discussed below).

First, is the concept of the Bloodknives. {I appologize beforehand. This will be a rambling criticism. If you do not like such complaints, feel free to skip.} According to the text, their rings (once activated), make them "super" assasins. (I would surmise a step below Gray Men [and Gray Women] but certainly better than the average assassin.) We are told that if worn continuously (sp?), the Bloodknives will die in a matter of days. "Removing the ring would slow that process slightly, but once activated ... the process was irreversible." (TGS, pg. 560).

During the attack, one of the 4 is killed on screen. Therefore, 4 are left. A couple of scenarios will occur TOM. We find out that these 4 died off-screen during the battle. Second, they are around and killing Aes Sedai before they are killed. If they take off their rings at times, they may be able to spread out their remaining life forces.

My problem is that after the 12th book, RJ included a new plot thread: The damage these assassins could cause. At this point we (the reader) do not need new plot threads.

If, on the other hand, the remaining Bloodknives do not kill anybody else, I believe it was a useless plot device. The attack on Suin & Gareth could have been done by a Seanchan not powered by such rings.

Another problem I have with the rings is the interpretation that I believe I read above from a Q&A signing where BWS said that by taking off the rings, one could extend his life weeks. If BWS said this, I believe it contradicts the language that I quoted above.

Comments on the use of the Bloodknives as a plot device at this stage of the game.

{Query: Is it possible that Evanellein did not escape but rather was killed by one of the Bloodknives? -- I hope not}

My second disappointment is the resolution of the Rand as a beggar viewings/dreams. His beggar status (including use of staff [TGS, pg. 750] & curing of blindness [TGS, pg. 760] were resolved in 11 pgs. I thought the build-up deserved more than 11 pages where Rand just walks through Ebou Dar as a refugee and sits on a mountaintop. (That said, I do like the last chapter -- how he finally finds his "vision" and destroys the CK.)

IIRC, the viewings/dreams were discussed frequently in the books. My disappointment is that I believed such a foreshadowing deserved a more significant resolution.

For those still reading, my hesitation with this second disappointment discussed early in this post concerns my own recollections. If I am right and the beggar viewings/dreams are mentioned a lot in the books, then I am disappointed by how RJ chose to resolve this issue. If, on the other hand, the heavy discussion was not in the books themselves, but rather in the fandom, then it is only me as a crazy fan who should be disappointed. Because had I been a casual reader who could not remember those past viewings/dreams, then I should not be disappointed. Thus, it is a me problem, not an author problem (to steal ESPN's Colin Cowharts' phraseology).

Comments to this disappointment are appreciated.

Sorry for the rambling posting. Thanks for reading my musings.

AndrewB
T C
2464. Freelancer
M-o-M@2445

Well, I guess I'm not the oldest commentor here. Drat. Lisa Kudrow? She's way too tall, and way too blonde. In every definition of the word.


lindal@2446

Elaida is not likely to be the only sister capture who could Travel, but then it only takes one. So yes, the Seanchan will be making Gateways soon.

Katerine escaped before she could be brought to Verin after Dumai's Wells, so she never got any "instructions".


Samadai@2447

Yeah, I meant as Freelancer. Just don't say anything that might connect you to the guy in San Diego with 3 pages of questions, and you'll be fine.

Yes, I meant Semirhage, thank you.

Brandon's tweets are getting more and more humorous.


Dedicated@2449

About the unaccounted for Bloodknives, to be specific they can survive for between 5 days and several weeks, depending upon their use of the ring. (Not even remotely a hat tip to LoTR, nope, not at all)


Baravius@2451

If Verin's scene with Egwene was the first time in WoT that brought tears to your eyes, you're made of cuendillar, and you need to fix that fast. Oh, and it was Semirhage to whom Cadsuane applied the board of education to the seat of learning.


The Ninth Horse@2454

Yep, I'm with you. But this seems to have become one of those debating points where everyone has chosen sides and won't budge. Like Gawyn under Compulsion.


Tektonica@2457

There is the potential for a misinterpretation of the Shaidar Haran POV to which you refer. I took it as you did originally, but on recent re-reads I've adjusted my thinking. Why would a construced creature who's entire existence is focused on the dark one want free of him? Check his words again (I can't right now, in a couple of hours) and you may find that he longs to be free of Shayol Ghul. Now how else could you spin that thought?


schrodinger@2460

So you think Hawkwing acquired Lews Therin Telamon's weapon a thousand years later? I don't imagine that LTT carried a sword around in his day.


Lannis@2462

I'm glad you think she's dead. But just to follow through on your "Now there's a chance..." The only reason Graendal would set such a scheme in motion as to "hire" a channeling darkfriend, teach them Compulsion, and have them use it on any arriving messenger, would be that she unraveled Rand's plan to balefire her entire compound, testing a messenger both before and after to verify that he hit his target. A plan he developed on the spot, with no precursor or prelude. She isn't going to solve a puzzle that she doesn't know exists.

It's more likely that Elaida will suddenly interpret all of her past Foretellings with perfect accuracy, will escape the Seanchan, will Travel to the White Tower, and deliver herself to Egwene for arrest and punishment for everything she's done since deposing Siuan.
Leslie Annis
2465. Lannis
@ Free: Oooooh! Do you think that's truly in Elaida's cards?! I do so love self-realization! [/sarcasm] ;)
j p
2466. sps49
I take Shaidar Haran as an extension of the Dark One, who is imprisoned in Shayol Ghul. The DO is jetting around in his avatar, but not as freely as he wants.

I see SH as the DO; he doesn't want to be free from himself. (Herself?)
Barry T
2467. blindillusion
Freelancer@2464

RE: Your comment to Lannis@2462 involving Elaida suddenly becoming MOA...

That poor, poor snowball.
Wilson Grooms
2468. MrJanduin
Hello new people! I skipped work today to finish the book. Well worth the setback. It's good to feel the series moving again.

Sorry for a long post, but I gotta get it out! I simply don't know what to do with myself now that this book is finished.

What I loved:
1) Egwene and the White Tower Saga--I was enthralled despite some character simplifying for speed. Egwene vs the Seanchan linked with the novices made me giddy. I'm not going to lie...I got up and danced a number of times.

2) Verin's character climax and finale. I don't remember ever feeling the sense of pride, awe, sorrow, and happiness reading a book that I did during Verin's final scene. (Maybe the climax to A Tale of Two Cities or the death of Oy in the Gunslinger series) What a great character arc!

3) Rand being collared and tapping the True Power. I am in accord with those who've said that this scene was one of the best in the series. It was eery and hopeless with a great deus ex machina thrown in.

What I didn't like:
1) Mat. He's still my favorite character and he made me laugh out loud more in this book than in any other, but it was overdone. He was a caricature of himself.

2) Some Dialogue. I appreciate not trying to write exactly like RJ, but you can't change the vernacular of a series' characters. There were a lot of "Ayes" and mistreated "bloody ashes" and small anachronisms that really bothered me. I liked that RJ's dialogue didn't resort to the typical medieval forms so many fantasy books use and they popped up occasionally in this one.

3) Names. I really disliked many of the new character names. One of the reasons I don't read very much fantasy fiction is because I find most books use really stupid names. RJ was the best I've ever seen at creating character names that fit. I'm going to chalk this up to age and research that BS can't possibly have yet. The only other person to be really good at it was Tolkien and he had a really expansive bg in mythology and language to pull it off.

All in all, I loved the book. I don't think there could have been a better spot in the series for Brandon to have jumped in considering all of the necessary changes in tempo and character development. I think RJ would have been proud. I can't wait for the next one.
Alice A
2469. Wetlandernw
Hey, guys, the dragon isn't etched on the sword. It's lacquered on the scabbard.

I've come to the conclusion that there's just a whole book-full of stuff that we're going to have to wait and see. We seem to have a lot of people "choosing sides" on issues like whether Graendal is dead, whether Semi was set up to fail (and by whom), whether Rand was set up to use the TP (and by whom), and so on. Brandon is giving us a LOT more in hints than RJ ever seemed to, but he still doesn't want to kill the discussion so he won't answer everything. It's quite intentional that there are lots of things we just can't figure out from the text. Me, I think I'll keep a private list of guesses on how these things will play out in ToM, but I'm bowing out of discussion! Well, except to correct obvious misreadings of the text, like the dragons NOT being on the sword...

Sure am looking forward to the re-read starting again. I'm about worn out on TGS speculation. I think over Thanksgiving, if I have any reading time I might just go back to the beginning and do a very slow re-read of my own. And what do you know, I finally got my husband to try it! Don't think I'll make a rabid fan of him (like those of us on here...), but I'm hoping he'll at least get all the way through and enjoy it. :)
Alice A
2470. Wetlandernw
MrJanduin @2468 - Careful there. I doubt BWS made up a single name in the entire book. He commented one time that in RJ's materials was a huge list of characters that hadn't been used yet - names, backstories, the whole nine yards; part of it was culture-building for himself, part was creating characters for use as needed in upcoming segments. So there was no need for him to create new names. For example, a lot of people ragged about the name "Fortuona" as a bad BWS attempt... Turned out that when Brandon realized he needed the "Empress Name" for Tuon, he asked Maria, she went on the hunt, and came back with the name RJ had already chosen for that purpose: Fortuona. Shucks anyway.
T C
2471. Freelancer
MrJanduin@2468

First off, what were you thinking letting Shaiel cross the Dragonwall while with child? Did you know you had a son? He's been making a name for himself these last couple of years. Several names, in fact. Car'a'carn, Coramoor, Dragon Reborn. Also, he's the only person to ever sit atop Dragonmount, but I doubt he'll be telling anyone about that.

Only other thing I wanted to say was that you can't be sure that any names you are unhappy with were BWS's creation. Lots of folks were displeased at Brandon with Fortuona as a name change, but it turns out that was Jordan's choice. Likewise, some readers complained abou how different the Prologue of TGS "sounded", and couldn't Brandon get closer to RJ's style than that, only to find out that it's almost word-for-word Robert Jordan.

Edit: ::nudges Wetlandernw:: Quick on the draw. And I thought you were tired of this thread.
j p
2472. sps49
Samadai- hope to see a post-signing post from you tonight!

Is anyone here going to be in Clayton or San Jose (CA) Saturday? Half Moon Bay is too far to go in Friday traffic, but it might be fun to compare notes and take notes on every question answered. (Unless BrS or someone is tweeting them somewhere?)
Wilson Grooms
2473. Seamus1602
@lindal 2446

I've been having this weird [crazy] idea that Elaida will be granted a redemption arc. Basically, Elaida kept Traveling secret, only giving it to her closest confidants (Tarna and Katerine, maybe Tsutama). Given this limited knowledge, Elaida/Suffa is the only captured AS who knows how to Travel.

Elaida's redemption then comes through her NOT revealing how to Travel to the Seanchan. How does she do this? No real clue, other than she's stubborn as hell, and in fact has some supernatural Fain stubborness. In essence, Fain's touch means that she can never become a 'trusting pet', no matter the torture she's put through.

Having said this, I really hope that the only time we see Elaida before the end is when Rand next meets with Fortuona, and she brings all AS damane, including Elaida. At which point, Rand is like, 'Really? Really?!? This is your plan? You can kill that b*tch, for all I care'. Though I guess All You Need Is Love Rand may not say exactly that. Course, this means the Seanchan will have Traveling from Elaida at least.
Roger Powell
2474. forkroot
Well, well things have taken quite a twist for me. I live in the Phoenix area and was thinking about attending BWS' signing in Scottsdale last Monday, until I found out that my company was sending me out on a trip again (6th week in a row, ugh).

So I flew to Portland, ended up reading about Freelancer's trip to the signing and felt sorry that I wouldn't get a chance, when I realized that BWS is coming here! Ahah!

Then this morning my laptop died, so it looked like I was going to have to jump on a plane and go home, missing the signing.

Then... wonder of wonders, my customer had a dead laptop of the same type that was a willing "organ donor". So I'm back on-line (as you can see) and still here in Portland.

Too bad I missed the time window to tell Samadai that I'll be there - hopefully we'll figure it out at the bookstore.

It's also too late to volunteer to ask questions. Hopefully you got all of yours to Samadai.

I'll be posting tomorrow with how it all went .. but for now I gotta run :-)
Tricia Irish
2475. Tektonica
AndrewB@2457

As for Rand as the beggar and being blind: I really never liked that part of the prophecy, so I was very pleased with the resolution being more self-inflicted and introspective (metaphorical) than some new plot twist (actual). Rand went off alone in disguise and observed the Seanchan world and took himself to DM to think. Not as dramatic as a mutilation, but more satisfying for me philosophically. I enjoyed being inside Rand's head more in this book, even in the Bad Rand parts. We really got some insight into his "crazy-think", thus making his realization at the end of the book more powerful. Just my opinion, of course.

Freelancer@2457

I don't know why SH would want to be free of his maker either, unless he was made too intelligent and had developed a sense of self. Who knows if he could even exist without his connection to the DO? I think it's interesting how he must act "through" the DFs or Forsaken and can not directly affect the world, just like the DO cannot, yet. He really is the avatar for the DO, isn't he? I'll check the quote. Thanks.
Wilson Grooms
2476. MrJanduin
Welandernw@2470 - I didn't want to specify any particular names for that reason. They may all have been RJ's. However, they felt different to me in this book.
Wilson Grooms
2477. Seamus1602
Re: Faile & Co vigil for the Rolan-ites

I've seen many comments about how this scene was nice closure/was moving/was a good conclusion.

I heartily disagree. When Faile said 'We have great toh. Toh that cannot be repaid,' I was literally screaming at my book, 'NO! You dont!'

I hate few things more than a hypocrite. Rolan et all were exactly that. They knew exactly what the Shaido were doing prior to joining up. They knew the Shaido had abandoned jie'toh, yet they still decided that that was where they needed to be.

Rolan and the boys kidnapping Faile and friends meant, IMO, that Rolan et all had incurred great toh to Faile's group. Toh which they were only partially able to repay by protecting them from being raped (in Alliandre's case, protect her from being raped again). In short, Rolan and Co. are directly responsible for their capture, as well as Alliandre's rape. IMO, no niceties or sudden realizations of love can undo that. Rolan and his Brotherless are absolutely despicable people, and not at all redeemed in my mind cause they remembered late in the game that they, and the Shaido, had long since abandoned jie'toh.

Arella's Maiden does deserve some respect. She was Shaido and was merely staying with her clan, which does not excuse her, but makes her differ from the Brotherless. Her choice to protect A did show jie, as opposed to the Brotherless' hypocritical nonsense.

Also, that scene truly served to actually show me Morgase's royalty, something we haven't seen in a long while. Morgase didn't need any protector. Faile's learning, and Alliandre's getting pretty good at the Neville Chamberlain school of diplomacy (though I realize she was forced to it), but Morgase was able to use her Malden time to reclaim her queenly stature.
Tricia Irish
2478. Tektonica
Way to go Forkroot! The Wheel turns in mysterious ways. My jealousy continues unabated! Can't wait for a full report from you and Samadai....
Thomas Keith
2479. insectoid
Free @2464 re: SH: Marsh. ;)

EDIT: By the way, isn't it your turn to snatch a nice big round comment number?
Wilson Grooms
2480. Seamus1602
@Freelancer 2464 & Tektonica 2475

The SH quote is:

'A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow it needed. The day was coming. It would come'

Though I, like Tektonica, originally thought that this meant that SH wanted to be free of the DO, upon further inspection it seems clear that SH merely does not want to be linked to Shayol Ghul anymore.

This, combined with other Forsaken/DFs referring to the 'Day of the Return' or whatever when the DO's free, as well as SH's own reference to himself as 'the Hand of the Shadow' the paragraph before the above quote, seems to indicated that Freelancer's interpretation is more likely.

SH wants to be free of Shayol Ghul because the DO wants to be free of Shayol Ghul/his prison. Once that happens, 'It (The Day of the Return) would come.'
Julian Augustus
2481. Alisonwonderland
Freelancer@2443:
Joiya Amico, the Black sister who was stilled in the Stone during the SGs escape....

That's a neat trick there, turning two sisters into one! The black sisters were actually Joiya Byir and Amico Nagoyin.
Henry Loose
2482. schrodinger
@freelancer

I remember him fencing... although a fencing sword is not the same as the sword that rand has acquired... all things are possible... unless the opposite is stated directly in the books, by the author, or in clues.

You do bring up a valid point... with all the modern tech of the AoL, i doubt that LTT would have had a sword... why use one when you're the most powerful channeler alive?

And if someone by some chance is able to shield him... well, he's probably not going to be able to move either because they'd bind him in air... and we'd all be shit outta luck.
Rob Munnelly
2483. RobMRobM
@2457 - re my reading various sci-fi and fantasy classics. I'm doing it within our WoT re-read posts. I started the process during one of Leigh's breaks (maybe when she was away at Jordancom), derived my list from the 100-plus recommendations I received, and have been periodically reporting as I completed the work or works in question.

Best bet for finding the dates the survey was taken is to search on the Tor.com site for Willis or another lesser known name on the list - that will lead you to the WoT posts from which my list was developed.

Short answers so far:

Feist/Riftwar - liked but didn't love.
Donaldson/Gap Series - loved but parental caution on how emotionally violent it is.
Bujold/Vorkosigan saga - loved!!
Willis/Doomsday Book - loved
/To Say Nothing Of the Dog - liked very much but not perfect
/Firewatch (short stories) - liked

Now I need to report on Salvatore's Dark Elf trilogy and Hobbs' Farseer books (I finished the first trilogy a week or two ago and I'm about to finish the follow up Tawny Man series that follows the same characters 15 years later). Not going to do it tonight.

Rob
Henry Loose
2484. schrodinger
@Rob

I personally found the first few series that Salvatore did to be very good... they were my favorite until I discovered WoT. His latest series "Transitions" leaves something to be desired... The Cleric Quintet is just amazing, and all the Drizzt books up to Transitions rocked.

anyway, my two cents

edit: if its not on your list, add The Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny... a really vibrant and rich world.
T C
2485. Freelancer
Alisonwonderland@2481

Egads. That's whay I get for posting here while running 7 or 8 applications on 2 screens at work. I must have skimmed the lines on Encyclopaedia-wot and jumbled them. Good catch. Anyway, Amico was the one who got stilled, and told them to go to Tanchico. Joiya swore that she repented, and told them of Liandrin's plot to free Taim.

Sorry 'bout that.


RobMRobM

When a fantasy reader first meets Drizzdt Do'Urden, I find it hard to imagine a more sympathetic hero to root for. Salvatore certainly milks Drizzdt's popularity, and some will claim that the stories become too one-dimensional after awhile, but Drizzdt is the Chuck Norris of fantasy adventure fiction.
Barry T
2486. blindillusion
@Various RE: LTT using/carrying a sword...

From What is Written in Prophecy, chapter 55 of tDR:

The Forsaken (Be'lal) laughed, amused, swinging his blade in quick flourishes to either side of him; the black fire roared as if swift passage through the air quickened it. "You were a greater swordsman, once, Lews Therin (Rand)," he said mockingly. "Do you remember when we took that tame sport called swords and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said man once had?


As the AoL technology was destroyed during that War men turned to old ways of fighting. I'm sure Lews carried a sword. He's one of the people that brought that form of war-craft back into the world.

~This could also be said to be evidence that our Ages comes before the 3rd Age. The use of swords to kill comes from the old volumes.

~~I've always liked this quote from Be'lal because it's pretty cool that they took the game and re-learned its true purpose. I've always enjoyed fencing =).

~~~This is also one of the reasons I question the Forsaken's, and even LTT's, competency as Generals. They were using a "new" form of war. The Generals in the present day have been using this form of war for thousands of years.
john massey
2487. subwoofer
An APB? What am I? America's 10 most wanted?!

Geeze folks, I thought I dropped a hint on my last post- re 1925- 'tis the season, so I went bowhunting. Took our quads out to the middle of nowhere Ablerta, AKA the Blight- and shimmied up to some of our stands and rediscovered why people die from exposure. Good times though:) The quiet helps clear your head of all the unnecessary noise that gets rolling around in there shut up LTT- get out of my head! and grounds you.

Note to self- wampum makes too much noise, tips deer off.

I see Guru Free went buck while I was away, awesome, give 'er!

@1883 Branwhin- shucks, thanks! Have I got some stories about what us canuckle heads got up to...

@Various- I see we have all gone on a cookie bender... have I discussed the merits of jerky?

Much to say, will Ketchup later, gotta shower- ahhhhh blessed hot running water, shave and nab some cot time. Maybe say "hi" and kiss my wife... thing about adventure, sometimes it is good to be home :)

Woof™.
T C
2488. Freelancer
Sub,

I did what? And you were gone for awhile?

Wise that you got the running water thing ahead of the wife thing. Might have ended up right back in the cold.
bex
2489. somewheresouth
The End of the World As We Know It:
I'd be upset if channeling went out with this age, but I suspect so would most of the main characters. Not being able to touch the Source = large amounts of pain/longing & fading away, and as most of the main characters are channellers, this is probably not good for their future happiness.

Random Question:
Do we know the origins/etymology of the "Nine Moons"? This probably isn't relevant, but could be interesting.

Stupid Observation: If Robert Jordan was the Creator, and Brandon Sanderson is the chosen instrument of the Creator to finish his work, then it's amusing that his first name is bRANDon.
Thomas Keith
2490. insectoid
Hey Sub! You got back just in time to snatch comment 2500. ;)

Free recommended Salvatore's Dark Elf trilogy to me, as well as a few others I can't remember. Perhaps I'll read Ender's Game first.
Wilson Grooms
2491. alreadymadwithtravellers
On Travelling:
Yes, the Seanchan will most likely have Travelling the next time they meet Rand's forces, but I doubt it will significantly overturn Rand's advantage. For one thing, damane can't link. And the average female can only make a gateway as large as a doorway. Most not at all. Even the largest Gateways made by women are barely large enough to accommodate mounted riders. Meaning while the Seanchan will be able to move people around with it, they won't be able to do so at the same scale as the Asha'man taxi service.
Also, I'm not quite sure whether they have to break Elaida first, or whether she'd talk just by being collared. But there's another factor that might work to Rand's favor.

On Drizzt:
I liked Dark elf trilogy and icewind dale. Unfortunately by the time I got to the forth or fifth trilogy, it was getting tedious and formulaic. I enjoyed Road of the Patriarch, though, featuring Artemis Entreri and Jarlaxle.
Henry Loose
2492. schrodinger
Freelancer@2485

He milked it to the very end... Hunter's Blades=good, Transitions=bland/blah/not very good... before then, the chuck norris of fantasy is a great title for Drizzt.

Blindillusion@2486

perhaps Be'lal was being metaphorical...

"You were a greater swordsman, once, Lews Therin (Rand)," he said mockingly. "Do you remember when we took that tame sport called swords and learned to kill with it, as the old volumes said man once had?"

this seems to be that he is taking a specific word (swords) and applying it to a general field that was learned (war)... I believe that here he is just saying that fencing helped them to understand what war was (feints, etc. I don't know the actual terminology), I take it to mean that they took fencing and expanded it, rather than they knew fencing, and so then when it came time to kill each other they went ::swishy-swishy-swish-swish::

I always liked this quote because it is about taking something fundamental and making the leap into a whole new realm far beyond what was started with. Just looking at Fencing terminology on wikipedia, I can see a lot of the application to warfare, what with all the different types of attack, defenses, and ways of defeating an opponent.

Maybe LTT had a ceremonial sword, or something, but I doubt he had one that he would use for actual fighting (a fencing sword and style being different from a thicker, say, cavalry word, or even a footman's sword and style)

Just some thoughts, shoot back some ideas at me, maybe we can have a... Conversation:
The back-and-forth play of the blades in a fencing bout, composed of phrases (phrases d'armes) punctuated by gaps of no blade action.

to the bunker ::sniff:: cinnamon rolls seem to be almost done.

edit: ohmygod somewheresouth@2491 great find! that is almost too good to be true... cinnamon rolls are delicious.
Lindy Brown
2493. lbrown
Wow, there's a lot of new posts today that I haven't got through yet.

Well, I went to the book signing tonight in Portland, OR. It was the first book signing I've ever been to. It was really neat! Brandon said that this is the 4th time he's come to that same location. Yay! Maybe he'll come back next year.

My boyfriend and I got there about an hour before it started and I was able to get the 23rd ticket. I got my book signed about an hour and a half into the signing. Unfortunately, I was a little nervous and so forgot what I wanted to say to Brandon. I wanted to thank him profusely for taking on the Wheel of Time and tell him he did an excellent, fantastic job with it. I guess I can still email him.

I did get to ask him a question, though.

I asked, “Is Demandred behind the events of Lord of Chaos?”

Brandon's Answer: I got an official RAFO card (yay!) and he said he can’t answer any questions related to what Demandred is doing. But he referenced the part where Demandred goes before the Dark One at the beginning of LOC and the Dark One asks if Demandred will release balefire in his (the DO’s) name. Brandon said we don’t know yet whether Demandred has done that (released balefire) yet or not.

One answer that stood out to me during the Q&A session earlier in the evening was that Brandon confirmed that when Masema had his vision of the Dragon Reborn (referenced in the prologue of TGS), he DID actually see someone. It wasn’t just a delusion. Which confirms what a lot of you have been thinking.

Anyway, I think some of you fellow posters were there tonight. I heard that Samadai and fookroot were there. I think I saw who you guys were but was too chicken to come say hi. :(
LT Tortora
2494. Lucubratrix
Closing in on 2500 comments. Forget the Gregorian calendar; this is moving towards star dates.

Schrodinger@2492 and Blindillusion@2486, I had always taken Be'lal's comment literally (that is, there had been fencing, but eventually they began using swords that would kill) and left it at that, but now I wonder if "swords" might not have been a sort of mock battle game. The Romans had something similar, where boys rode horses in elaborate formations that simulated a battle:

...They rode apart,
to right and left in equal ranks; the three
squadrons had split their columns into two
separate bands; and then, called back again,
they wheeled around and charged like enemies
with leveled lances. Now they start new marches
and countermarches in the space between them;
and interweaving circle into circle
in alternation, armed, they mime a battle.
(Virgil, the Aeneid)

If this game existed in the AoL, it's not a stretch to see how someone with a little creativity and a good tactical mind could add real weapons and cause real bloodshed.
Bouke de Boer
2495. Bouke
Wow, it takes almost 45min to catch up after a good night's sleep.

Thoughts for today:

alreadymadwithkneeling @2419: So true, lol!

MAT @2415: Since saidin is cleansed, I suppose male Healing would be feasible as well. Although this would probably not bring you back to full strength (as per the male-on-male / female-on-female Healing theory)... Get better!

various @2458-59, 2482 and 2486:
Heh, the sword is Justice, IMO. However, re: LTT actually owning and using a sword: Why not? Certainly considering Be'lal's quote...
Moreover, IIRC, heron-marked swords were created with the power during the AoL, right? Or was this after the Breaking? If during AoL, they certainly would have been using swords, and LTT could easily have had one as well.
Regardless: Justice!

AndrewB @2463: I think the beggar viewing doesn't come up that often in the book(s), it was (is) heavily discussed in bunkers everywhere.

On Drizz't: yes, he's MoA in the first books, perhaps earning him the Chuck Norris title, but I always feel that the series are way too much centered on him. Personally, I like Dragonlance mucho more, because there is more world-building going on and the focus is on multiple characters. (yes, in later books other characters appear in Salvatore's books, but still: mostly Drizz't)

On a side note to this: check this one. Also, nice way to wait for posts.
Though only if you're into the whole RPG thang...

Edit: typo
j p
2496. sps49
I'm going to ask if the fat man angreal just got lost, or did Someone steal it and we will find out. It may be our Book 6-7-8 (or whatever) mystery, too- unless this has been asked & answered at a signing already.

Rand's sword- why would he make a point, in his internal POV, that he recognizes the sword from his own memories? This may be another place where I agree to disagree with many, but this disqualifies LTT as the sword's prior owner.

2500? Ha. Some anonymous poster just got 17,000,000 on /b/ today.

Edit: correct number
Sam Mickel
2497. Samadai
Hello everyone,

I just got back from the book signing a few minutes ago. it was awesome^2. Lbrown you should have come over and talked were both pretty nice. Maybe next time.

Just one quick thing before I go sleep in the bunker.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Just kidding but I will post a long post tomorrow maybe even with pictures if I can figure out how to do that.

It was great to meet Forkroot there, it is a pretty good story which I will relate in my next post even if he does it first.
Maiane Bakroeva
2498. Isilel
Freelancer @2464:

The only reason Graendal would set such a scheme... would be that she unraveled Rand's plan to balefire her entire compound,

Not at all. All she needed to know to come up with setting a decoy was that Rand was actively looking for her - which she had to know if her information net wasn't totally useless. Rand certainly told it to anybody who'd listen.
At this point, the clever and prudent thing was to relocate, Travelling in as business required, but leave a decoy with instructions to imitate G's behavior.
That would distract Rand, lead him to wasting time on inconsequential matter and if he tracked the decoy and attacked the compound also lead to mental pain once he realized how he'd been duped.

Very IC and in accordance with G's orders from the prologue.

Re: Moridin/SH, needless to say that I completely disagree with your assessment.

IMHO, Moridin figured out how the link could be used after Rand showed up in his dream, informed the DO - who was pleased, since it gave him a hold on Rand, etc. While Moridin forbade the other FS to rescue Semi, he did tell them that the DO may have a use for her. And also that he himself wished to kill her for her actions. Well... it seems to me that things have certainly gone according to his wishes, no? IMHO, SH and Moridin were clearly working in concert.

Seamus:

Great minds think alike! I also hope that Elaida manages to withhold Travelling from Seanchan, cause it will be unbelievable if competent as they are they don't immediately cause a lot of damage with it. I'd like a little redemption for her after all the mustache-twirling, too.

And there is a simple way for Elaida to do it if only she thinks of it. All she needs is to formally swear to herself without any loopholes that she won't betray any secrets/channel for Seanchan and the First Oath will do the rest.

Tectonica:

I think that there is a Robin Hobb discussion board somewhere on the nets. BTW, a sequel to the Farseer double trilogies and the Liveship trilogy has come/is coming out. It was supposed to be 1 large volume, but publishers chopped it in 2. The first half, "The Dragonkeeper" is out in hb and is very enjoyable, IMHO.
Maiane Bakroeva
2499. Isilel
Sps49 @2496:

I'm going to ask if the fat man angreal just got lost, or did Someone steal it and we will find out.

Eh, didn't we have Osan'gars POV, where he gloated over nicking the angreal? I am away from my books, so I can't provide a chapter. Anyway, as such it has either been slagged by Elza and Co. or still lies on the burned hill near ex-Shadar Logoth where Osan'gar died yet again.

If somebody is looking for a question to ask, maybe you could ask this:

How do people learn to weave the opposite half of OP when leading a mixed circle? Do they suddenly see the weaves of the opposite half? Does everybody in a mixed circle see them? Does it take longer to learn the opposite weaves (it should)?

Pretty please!
Sam Mickel
2500. Samadai
Ok, one quick note before I head to the world of dreams.

Direct from Brandon Sandersons mouth.

Sylvaese is not a forsaken, nor was ever intended to be.

I will repost again tomorrow.

Isilel at 2498

you are wrong about one of your points, but I am mean and going to save it for tomorrow.

edit for comment #2500 wot wot also the year of my 429th birthday
Wilson Grooms
2501. Annonymous
This book gives all sorts of clues as to how Rand will go about locking the Dark One back in his prison.

We know from Min's readings that "something" has to touch the Dark One to be able to lock him away. We know Lews Therin's attempt at touching the Dark one with Saidin didn't work, so it's safe to assume Saidar would be tainted too. Hense the need for the Rand-Moridin connection - he'll have to use the True Power.
Wilson Grooms
2502. mer1234
I don't think that the Dark One has anything to do with Rand suddenly getting access to the True Power:

Ishamael/Moridin = The Dark One's champion
Rand = The Creator's champion.

It stands to reason that the Creator would be powerful enough to give Rand access to the True Power, and I do think that the Dark One would have won the fight right then and there if Semirhage was able to force Rand to kill Min.

Comments on this theory, anyone?
Bouke de Boer
2503. Bouke
The DO = the True Power.

Ergo, the Creator's got nothing to do with it. (theories re: active role of Creator aside...)

If Rand had actually killed Min, things would have taken a drastically different turn indeed. As per the Warder-bond, Rand would probably have gone on a full-scale rampage. The consequences of that, I leave to your imagination, but it wouldn't be pretty...
Tricia Irish
2504. Tektonica
Good morning all....another day, another 30 posts to catch up on. I swear, I need to check in 3 or 4 times a day to keep the reading level reasonable. But, isn't it fun!

What goodies does anybody want for the bunker today, while we wait with bated breath (what does that mean?) for Samadai's and Forkroot's report.

Seamus@2480

Thanks for the direct quote. In the reread of that, It does seem as if he is voicing the DO's desire to get out of Jail and not SH's desire to be free of the DO. Appreciate it!

RobM@2483

Thanks for the clues for searching....although I dont' know how or where on Tor to do that....I'll poke around. Did you like the Farseer Trilogy? I liked it better than the conclusion of the Tawny Man triology. I assume someone mentioned GRRMartin's Game of Thrones, etc. Good stuff that, if he would ever finish it. (But there's a movie coming!)

LBrown@2493

Good get on the Balefire comment! Ummmm....we should be looking for that. Has anyone besides Rand and Moridan and Moraine used it?

Isilel@2498

Thanks for the heads up on Robin Hobb's sequel to Farseer/Tawny Man. I didn't much like her Soldier Son trilogy, but I'll check out Dragonkeeper.
Thanks!

Various: OK, it's unanimous, Drizzt is next....so nice to hear everyone rave about a series I haven't read ANY of! I'm always blue when a great series ends....nice to have something to look forward to! (Imagine how bad it will be when THIS one actually concludes! Whaaaaaa!)

Mer1234@2502

I totally agree that if the Semi had forced Rand to kill Min he would have been completely lost. Over the edge. Bye bye. Gone over to the the dark side. (LTT's worst fears confirmed.....killing Ilyna again.)

I don't know that the Creator has any access to the True Power...that is the DO's baliwick, however he IS the Creator, so perhaps he created the DO and his power and put him in the Bore in the first place. Thoughts on that anyone?

Does the mixing of Saidar and Saidin produce the One Power? Or is it a separate thing again? Thoughts?
Wilson Grooms
2505. gesear
Has anyone given much thought to the nature of Fain/Mordeth's power?? What I mean to say is, that WOT seems to have rigidly defined sources of power, ie AS and Ashaman channel the TS from the Creator which turns the Wheel, Moridin channels the TP from the DO.

Where then does Fain get his power?? We have been getting hints that it has been steadily growing ever since he got the knife from SL and by the end of KoD he was creating illusion... That's pretty impressive seeing as he can't channel!

He is ultimately, a power unto himself. A power that is growing with time. I really wonder how much this wildcard will come into play come the last battle!
Wilson Grooms
2506. Seamus1602
Love the fantasy book discussion. All the love for Drizz't pushed me over to Amazon to check out the series. Here's my question:

Where do I start? Homeland? Is there another 'prequel' series? Please help...
Tess Laird
2507. thewindrose
samadai - Cool you got to meet Forkroot! Bummer - I was hopping Lanny/Cyn was close to Elayne and found out about about the daddy - yes I wanted some psycho ex girlfriend drama, with Elayne or Avi balefiring her. Oh well.
So did you ask anything about Berelain? You did have that very vivid dream of her. You don't happen to be wearing a lot of white now, do you:)

Tektonica- Moggy tried to balefire Nyn. And Nyn has used balefire, as well as Avi.
The bumbling BA's with the balefire rod have used it as well. I wouldn't doubt that Rahvin used it in the major fight of his life with Rand either, but I don't have the book with me to corroborate.
Guillaume Bergeron
2508. Nightbaron
Tektonica @2504

I don't think the "mixing" of saidin and saidar makes up the One Power, since they don't mix, just that they both together form the One Power, which in my understanding is the Power of the Creator (as opposed to True Power from the Dark One)

gesear @2505

Fain actually started making illusions as early as The Great Hunt, when he made the flies/loop thing that Rand stumbles into in that small village. As for where his power comes from, I just imagine that Aridhol itself became a power. Not a channelable power, with weaves and stuff, just some power which grew on its own to stand against the Shadow (but became just as bad). Maybe in a way it's Man's own Power? (as opposed to DO or Creator)
Rob Munnelly
2509. RobMRobM
@various. I started my inquiry for reading materials in TFOH part 27. My request is post 264 and recommendations flow for the next few hundred posts after that.

Regarding my reading activities, I should note that in recent years I have read GRRM, the entire Sanderson oevre (except that I am only 2/3 of way through reading third Alcatraz book to my kids), and Enders Game/Speaker for the Dead/Ender's Shadow. Dating back to my active sci-fi/fantasy reading days, I have read lots of stuff, with special places in my heart for Zelazny, Heinlein, LeGuin, Asimov, Vonnegut and especially Herbert's first Dune book - which remains my favorite single book in the genre (I try to ignore the later books).

Rob
Bouke de Boer
2510. Bouke
Seamus1602 @2506:
The first books are the 'Dark Elf Trilogy': "Homeland", "Exile", and "Sojourn". Pick it up from there.
Tess Laird
2511. thewindrose
Oh and Samadai and Forkroot and various... Is there a sign we use at gatherings to pick each other out? I would like to find a MN society(I had to miss the signing here, grumble husband grumble), and would love to sit at a bar or coffee shop(bar higher on list) and discuss idea's.
Matthew Smith
2512. blocksmith
Freelancer@2443

I hear you and don't necessarily disagree...I am still trying to make up my mind on the whole issue. But, and forgive me if I am interpreting this incorrectly, your suggested question regarding SH leads me to believe you may have a small smidgen of doubt.

TheNinthHorse@2454

I suspect permission to channel the TP likley requires swearing to the DO...

RobmRobm@2483

From your list it would appear you have not read any of Brust's work. His Vlad Taltos and pre-cursor series have been discussed/reviewed by Jo Walton on the TOR site. Personally, I think they are great. Most of the stories are short (2 to 3 hundred pages) as compared to WOT.

SubWoofer@2487

Best jerky I ever had was venison from the southern tier in western NY...and it goes great with Scotch. You bring the jerky, I'll be pouring.
Wilson Grooms
2513. gesear
@Nightbaron 2508

Was that Fain that created the flies illusion? I thought it was Lanfear (Uno saw a woman in white looking out from a window didn't he?)

As to 'Man's own Power' I agree. The thing is, the wound Rand receives from the SL dagger and the evil contained within it - the man-made evil - is just as unhealable as a wound received from the Dark One's own TP.
Wilson Grooms
2514. alreadymadwithlostsword
schrodinger @2492
Bel'al had a heron-marked blade. And he acknowledged LTT as a better swordsman. Lan indicated that the practice of using the heron to mark the best swordsmen started in the AoL. I don't really see any reason to take Bel'al's words metaphorically, when taking them literally is simpler and works just as well, even better in fact. Besides, where do you suppose Rand's instinctive skill with the sword came from? He was such a natural that with practically no training, just his natural stance was recognized by Gareth Bryne as being that of a blademaster. His first kill was one who had earned the heron mark. The simplest explanation is that swordsmanship is actually the first of LTT's skills to bleed through.

sps49 @2496
The fat man angreal either got scooped up by one of the Aes Sedai who were able to escape as a souvenir, or by one of the Asha'man. Though if it was one of Taim's men that found it, he probably has it by now, and we will see it again. I don't recall any POV from Osan'gar that says he has it, though he would also be a prime suspect for scooping it up.

As the book progressed, Rand also began to claim his knowledge of the Forsaken as his own. He stops making distinctions between his memories and LTT's. Besides, he always makes it a point to claim swordfighting memories as his own. Channeling and history related memories he always pushes onto "LTT". Also, the entire book is about Rand accepting that LTT's memories are his own. The sword was just the foreshadowing.
Ben Goodman
2515. goodben
Re: character names

Brandon said (at JordanCon, I think) that he has a different way to come up with character names than Jordan--he likes to use related sounds and linguistic tricks. He mentioned that in some of the names that he's come up with Maria had him change them because they weren't quite right. I expect that some of the new names are Brandon's, but it's possible that none of the characters he named have shown up yet.

Brandon did say that Jordan came up with the Fortuona name. I don't know that that is the name Jordan would have settled on if he had finished writing the book. I suspect that he would have even though I don't like it.

One of the challenges of writing a book like this with an attitude like Brandon's is that he feels obligated to use everything that Jordan came up with even if it wasn't completely polished. He's mentioned that Harriet has given him considerable leeway here because she's aware of it, but I suspect that his own internal pressure is pretty high not to change things like names that Jordan came up with.
Rob Munnelly
2516. RobMRobM
@2513 - the group extensively discussed the issue when reading the relevant chapter in TGH and ultimately concluded that Fain was indeed responsible rather than Lanfear. I don't recall but believe that external resources support the Fain hypothesis. Rob
Tina Murrah
2517. Tina.Murrah
@ 2504. Tektonica
HBO is making a show about GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series which i believe they are calling A Game of Thrones, after the first book.

Is there a movie too?
Guillaume Bergeron
2518. Nightbaron
gesear @2513

What RobMRobM @2516 said. I recall reading the Jordan and/or Sanderson quote which confirmed it, but I've read so much WoT material in the past couple of months that I couldn't tell you where I picked it up, I'm sorry.
Rob Munnelly
2519. RobMRobM
HBO miniseries on first 9 or so chapters of Game of Thrones is being filmed now, with a Fall 2010 expected show time, and plans to expand if filming looks promising. Tor.com has posts re the cast list.
Barry T
2520. blindillusion
RE: Character Names =

~Mr Sanderson also gives "cameo" appearences in his novels to his readers. I've seen several times on his Facebook page that he's added people into ToM...or that's what I suppose he's doing.

~~I don't suppose they're characters, but more of name drops.

~~~I think I recall reading on his Facebook page that he added one of his fans, and then he apologized for dropping a Trolloc on said fan.
And you know...that'd be a shitty way to go. Not even killed by the thing in battle...it just falls on you and splat....
Wilson Grooms
2521. lindal
@ a bunch of people
Thank you for all your clarifications and responses; it gives me a bunch of things to rethink.
TheWindRose @ 2511
I’m up for a cup of coffee and a chat about TGS. I missed the signing here as well ?. I’m in the northern suburbs. I wonder how many other Minnesotans there are on this board?
Leslie Annis
2522. Lannis
Sub @ 2487: ...shimmied up to some of our stands and rediscovered why people die from exposure.

BAHAHAhahahahaha! Too funny! Uh, I mean, sorry for your predicament! ;)

Bows, eh? Excellent! The hubby will be jealous. He just came back from his hunt and we've got some venison coming because one of the crew got one, but not my hubby this time... s'okay--I just filled the freezer full of baked goods, where would I put the meat?! :/

goodben @ 2515: re: names and notes... (yes, there is something WoT related in this comment! GASP!) I totally agree with you about the pressure Sanderson must be facing re: things Jordan had in his notes. It must be terribly difficult to weed through those 2500 pages (!?!) and feel obligated to present as much Jordan to the fans as possible, while remaining critical and creative with the content...
you know, because it's not like there's a huge community of people paying attention or anything... :O
Wilson Grooms
2523. alreadymadwithswords
Bouke @ 2495

There are heron-mark swords and there are power-wrought swords. They are neither the same, nor mutually exclusive.
Tricia Irish
2524. Tektonica
thewindrose@2507

Forgot about Avi and Nynaeve in the Stone and that black balefire rod thingy.
I'm sure your right about Rahvin using it in the showdown with Rand at the OK Tel Aranroid corral. Thanks for the memory jog.

RobM@2509

Thanks for doing my homework for me! I'll check out the posts.

It sounds like we have the same library, although I haven't read most of the SciFi stuff since college....a long long time ago....I should probably reread most of them, as my memory from then is pretty fuzzy......The first 3 Dune books were wonderful, I just reread those to my son a couple of years ago, then they went south quickly and the books by his son....don't go there.
LeGuin, Vonnnegut, Heinlein...the best!

Discovered Fantasy with JRRT about 10 years ago on a cross country drive with my son, where we listened to the Hobbit, and have been on a tear ever since. My husband's a murder mystery guy, but we did agree on a couple
of great Stephen Kings'....a surprise for me, as his stuff usually scares me sleepless. Loved loved loved the Dark Tower series and and the King/Straub twofer The Talisman and Black House. I pass that along.

When I heard Sanderson was writing the last WOT books, I ran out and read all his stuff and loved it, especially the Mistborn series. Liked Ender's Game as well, but haven't gotten past that one.

I'm looking forward to discovering Drizzt while I wait for the next two WOTs. Thanks all for that recommendations. This is fun....we could do your survey all over again?

OK, back to WOT.....
nolan
2525. topknot
Blindillusion@2920

Brandon did a charity event where he auctioned off cameos in the books for donations, the highest bidder got his name and description as one of the characters in the books as well as a line. There were also several runner ups and if I remember a random drawing including all of those who donated at least $20.
The names were subject to approval from team Jordan and could be modified in order to fit more naturally into the story.
Tess Laird
2526. thewindrose
lindal and any other Minnesotans - yes I am up for a meet and greet. Maybe after Thanksgiving? I have an account here, just give me a shout out and we can plan somethink(haha):)
Wilson Grooms
2527. FirstTimeCommenter
Any thoughts that Shaidar Haran was a 13/13 turned to dark character?

That mechanism hasn't been used, but has been mentioned several times in the series. We don't what effect being turned has, and it might just be a SuperFade.

My biggest problem with this is, that the Forsaken haven't seen anything like SH, and I presume they have seen a 13/13 turned person.
Barry T
2528. blindillusion
Ah yes, I remember hearing about that. Reading from his Facebook page made it seem random, though. But then, I haven't been a member of his page for long.

And I was simply commenting to someone's comment up there about having to go to Maria for a question on if a name would work.

I'd imagine these are those names.
T C
2529. Freelancer
::Looks around smugly for a moment::

I warned her. I told Leigh we'd bust 2,500 comments if she stayed away, and here we are. Insectoid, I gave your suggestion a moment's thought, and decided I've hogged enough attention over the last two weeks, nabbing post 2500 would have appeared awfully selfish.


Samadai@2500

Glad you got the honors there. But, you must tell me your secret for time travel, if you aren't due to be born for another 62 years? Because seriously, anyone deserving of taking this blog to a new level of insanity ought to have their centuries straight. Or their subtraction.


Tektonica@2504

Bated, in that form, is a truncation of abated, which means to halt or reduce an activity. So, simply put, you're holding your breath.

Seamus1602@2506

Drizzdt's saga begins with Homeland, followed by Exile, then Sojourn. However, those were written as prequels. Drizzdt's character is introduced in the Icewind Dale Trilogy, consisting of The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, and The Halfling's Gem.

It was somewhat of a surprise to Bob Salvatore that Drizzdt turned into the most beloved character of the first volume of the Icewind Dale story, and by the time the trilogy was complete the need for a story about the Dark Elf's life before coming to the surface was in huge demand. I recommend reading the Dark Elf trilogy first, though some would prefer to read them in publication order.


Nightbaron@2508

That trap with the repeating scene of flies and such during TGH was Lanfear's doing, not Fain's. Remember the woman in white in the upper window?


blocksmith@2512

No, I haven't revised my impression, but if it can be answered, a small debate can be settled.


amw@2514

I agree with your assessment, LTT was an excellent swordsman. I just question if he would wear one regularly, in the manner of a more contemporary general, when in that day it was a very new thing to use them as weapons instead of toys.


goodben@2515

There is now a San Diego Storm Leader Report on Dragonmount, and within it there's a video segment where Brandon speaks about exactly that topic among others. It's worth a watch, you'll find he wasn't too squeamish about getting creative where he felt the need (The back of my dome is visible in the lower left corner of the frame from time to time). His Prime Objective throughout is that it be Robert Jordan's book, finished to publishable form by him. He says, when asked how much of the work is Jordan and how much Sanderson.
"It's 100% Robert Jordan, and there's a whole bunch of me in there too."
Wilson Grooms
2530. SpeedRacer
I saw some posts about Rand being blind in relation to the prophecy. I thought it was clear that was fulfilled. He was blind figuratively, he was sitting on his(LTT's) grave while there on Dragonmount, his self introspection cleared his blindness.
Barry T
2531. blindillusion
Freelancer@2529 & Nightbaron@2508

Here's something Mr Jordan is claimed to have said, but it's not written as a direct quote, so it's open to question, I suppose.

Someone asked about the house and the flies. [The Great Hunt Ch. 10 - most people thought this was Lanfear. - Terez] He said it was a time loop trap set by Fain and if Rand had not left the house it would have repeated indefinitely till Rand died.


Here is a link to where I got that info.

Enjoy
nolan
2532. topknot
Blindillusion@2528

Sorry I didn't mean to single out, I meant to post that to various. I just stuck on your name when I posted.
Wilson Grooms
2533. alreadymadwithLTT'sswords
Freelancer @2529
If we take Bel'al's comment literally, he and Lews Therin between them (and likely a few others) pioneered the use of swords as weapons. Lan relates soldiers and officers alike used them during the War. Though I agree, no mention of a sword was made by the time Lews nuked himself.
Tricia Irish
2534. Tektonica
Freelancer@2523

Thank you, as usual for filling in my blank. Abated, of course. What a careful reader.

Cookie?
Roger Powell
2535. forkroot
Hi all - Gotta make this brief as I'm supposed to be working here at the customer site.

Before I get to the signing - just a note that for the second straight day I am consuming a Bacon Maple bar from Voodoo Doughnuts here in Portland and they are totally AWESOME. I vote we stock the cuendillar bunker with these. I'm going to take some home to my wife - we'll see how they travel.

Yesterday was quite a day. I was delighted when things worked out that I could go to the signing. I managed to negotiate Portland public transit and got there just as Brandon was finishing his remarks to the assembled crowd. As I was trying to figure out how to contact Samadai (who had no idea I was going to be there), I was approached by a bookstore employee who asked if I needed a ticket.

I got my ticket from her and explained my dilemma. Well she was nice enough to make an announcement, asking if there was anyone there with a "screen name" of Samadai - because forkroot (she pointed at me) was looking for him. A younger man on the opposite side of the room looked quite surprised, so I waved at him and made my way over there.

We had a blast talking about WoT stuff and soon had a little crowd of WoT fans talking and exchanging ideas. No one else identified themselves as participating in the re-reads, but we talked it up to the dedicated fans. Hopefully we'll see some of them join us. (lbrown - what a shame you didn't identify yourself to us! We would have loved to talk with you.)

Samadai had an early number so he went up and got his books signed. Due to my late arrival, my number was near the end. I made a huge mistake though: Obviously I didn't have my copy of TGS with me, but I was planning to buy Warbreaker and have BWS sign that. Should have snagged and held a copy; instead I waited until my turn in line only to realize that all the copies were gone. So I picked up a couple of the Alcatraz books and Brandon signed those.

By now you should have expected that Brandon would be polite, patient, witty, engaging and an all-around good guy. And he was all of that. I guess what really stands out about him is his consideration for other people.

As was the case in San Diego, Brandon agreed to stay late to address the questions but asked that we do it outside the bookstore since they would like to close up. Samadai had gathered the list of questions that you all had requested, and Brandon answered them patiently and thoughtfully.

I won't steal Samadai's thunder on those answers, but I will give you the answers to the two questions that I asked. My first question pertained to whether there was a mistake in the text when Joline is negotiating horse counts with Mat - did she overlook her warders? BWS looked surprised and said that if indeed the text didn't account for them that it was a mistake as Joline would not have forgotten them.

My second question was if any of the major Aiel characters was an unexposed Darkfriend. This got RAFO'd right away, so draw your own conclusions.

Lastly I want to mention that in general conversation at the end, Brandon was very careful to state that we cannot assume that Rand drew the TP through the link with Moridin; nor may we assume the opposite. (In other words, we're not supposed to have enough evidence yet to draw a conclusion.) Furthermore it seemed that he wanted to make it clear that we cannot discount the idea that the DO did indeed "set up" Semirhage (pretty much per Isilel's scenario). I'm not saying he's telling us that that is what happened, but he was almost insistent that we did not close the door on that line of speculation. Take it for what you will.

OK, It's been said before, but I have to say it again. We WoT fans are fantastically lucky that Brandon was chosen to complete the series. This guy has obvious reverence for WoT, the necessary skills as a writer, and an almost fanatic devotion to "keeping it RJ's story". Plus he's just a great guy.

Given that he's been so generous with his time to us the fans, I'd like to make a quick shout out now for one of his cause celebres that he mentioned at the end of his group address: He made a plea for us to support independent booksellers (brick and mortar places). He pointed out that things like the signing certainly can't happen if all of the books are sold on-line.

So if you can't meet him at one of his signings but want to say "Thank You" in your own way, then go buy one of his books at your local independent bookseller!

Oops - so much for being brief. I'll follow up after Samadai if there are any loose ends to chase.

Oh yeah - one more thing ... Portland needs to run their Red Line trains a little later. Cab fare was expensive!
Barry T
2536. blindillusion
topknot@2532

All's well in the bunker when info is being scattered to the appropriate parties.

And I don't mind being singled out...it gives me something to do other than work.

Reviewing SOPs = not much fun.
David
2537. whoami
New idea on the Rand TP incident. Well kind of, it's more of a refinement, really.

We all know that Rand and Moridin are merging, even to the point that Moridin *feels* Rand's missing hand, and probably even the ache in his side (can't remember that one exactly).

What do you think happened when Semi collared Rand? It's possible that Moridin just went INSANE. That may have accelerated the merging and opened up the True Power to Rand. TP access may have been a temporary thing that lasted only while Moridin was in shock due to the Domination Band, or it could be a more permanent thing that lasts as long as Rand and Moridin are joined so closely.

If this is true, it was probably completely unanticipated by Moridin, and leaving the CK on the floor is a red herring of one sort or another.
Henry Loose
2538. schrodinger
alreadymadwithlostsword@2514

what I meant was that, as well as being good fencers (swordsmen), and referencing that, Bel'al was employing a play on words so that "swords" took on a double meaning, one for fencing and one for warfare in general.

As I said before, when the time came to fight, I doubt very much that they just literally realized that they could kill people by using swords, but that they took it and the techniques and skills used in "the game of swords" and applied them to large scale battles.

Just take a look at these fencing terms and how they apply to warfare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fencing_terms.

The banter between Rand and Bel'al is both literal and metaphorical... as per the wonders of the english language.

::burp:: (excuse me) too many cinnamon rolls.
Guillaume Bergeron
2539. Nightbaron
Freelancer @2529 and BlindIllusion @2531

Thank you Blind, that's what I remembered reading, yes. I think it makes the most sense, anyway, as the trap is much more consistent with what we find out about Fain's powers in later volumes (making illusions) than anything we've ever seen done with the One Power. Oh and yes, I did remember the flash of Lanfear in the window that Uno saw ;)
Gbed
2540. Braig
Note to all on swordplay and whether or not LTT employed it in actual battle scenarios:
Ask Sammael where he acquired that nasty scar.

Also, peruse the battle scene with Rand and Sammy.

Good info there!
T C
2541. Freelancer
forkroot@2535

Thank you for the effort you went to last night. I know it was worth it. I can just imagine the look on Samadai's face when he got "paged". At Mysterious Galaxy, when I introduced myself to Insectoid, his mom's draw dropped and she just said "Awesome, I'm Babokathy on TOR", now my jaw dropped, and I said, "Awesome!". We had an excellent time talking. (lbrown, never fear to approach someone at a public gathering. If they turn out to not be worth your time, that's their problem, not yours)

I also thank you for the added comments regarding Rand/Moridin and DO/Semirhage theorizing. As I said in my report, Brandon wants to continue RJ's habit of promoting, rather than diminishing, continued discussion with his answers. That said, I will stick to my belief about those scenes, and Isilel will do likewise, and we'll all RAFO.

Ditto on supporting independent booksellers. Both in person and on Twitter, Brandon praised Mysterious Galaxy as his favorite independent bookshop to visit on tour, a remarkable comment given that the place is small and very focused on SF/F. But they have a terrific, helpful (slightly nutty, they'd fit right in here) staff, a dedicated following, and I will gladly allow an extra few dollars on the price of a book to keep them around.

Can't wait for Samadai's report. Thanks again, forkroot!
T C
2542. Freelancer
Nightbaron@2539
the trap is much more consistent with what we find out about Fain's powers in later volumes (making illusions) than anything we've ever seen done with the One Power

But we have seen Moghedien (not Lanfear) create such a trap before. She was shocked when her victim was able to escape it. This was why I believed the trap Rand got caught in was her doing. I'll let someone else give the reference/quote.
Barry T
2543. blindillusion
Nightbaron@2539

Wouldn't this incident be something other than Illusion? If Mr Jordan did say those words verbatim, then a "time loop trap" is something far more dangerous than a mere Illusion.

But then, I don't recall the Illusion he crafts in KoD. And as I don't have my books, I cannot look it up.

But there is no doubt that Fain has some of the more dangerous powers in the series. Some he got from the DO. Others he got from Mordeth. And then there is the possibility he may have been contaminated by Machin Shin.

Guy's absorbing all the Evils of Randland. Not to mention he's insane. He's now in possession of the only relic of Shadar Logoth. And he wants Rand something fierce.

I hope he gets taken out by some random, nameless character. I'd find it very amusing =)

edit before post:Freelancer, look at my comment at 2531. Let's discuss....
Rob Munnelly
2544. RobMRobM
@2543

"Luffa - please destroy the little man with the big knife and I'll give you a cookie."

"Yes, Sul'dam. With pleasure...."

Rob ;-)
Sam Mickel
2545. Samadai
I am going to be putting up my post pretty soon, however am not a 100% sure how to add the pictures to my comments. is it a simple copy and paste or maybe 1 of you could put the instructions here or in my shoutbox(I am kind of looking at You Freelancer,since you just did it a few days ago).
Of course anyones help is greatly appreciated.

And indeed I am a time traveler.or not
I guess that would have made my 529 birthday
Sam Mickel
2546. Samadai
Forkroot,

I am sorry I could have easily given you a ride to your hotel(hiding out in bunker feeling ashamed) :(
Guillaume Bergeron
2547. Nightbaron
Freelancer @2542
But we have seen Lanfear create such a trap before. She was shocked when her victim was able to escape it.

Hmm... really? I have no recollection of that. Not that I don't believe you, but even though I'm pretty confident in my WoT knowledge, I don't remember such an event. What was the context?

BlindIllusion @2543

Fain first creates an illusion on screen in WH, if I'm not mistaken, having two Asha'man (who were dead, or one of them was dead) appear to go up the stairs to surprise Rand and Lan. I haven't read WH in years, though, so my recollection here is patchy.

Samadai @2545

This is how
[~img]url-of-image[~/img], but without the ~ characters
Sam Mickel
2548. Samadai
Forkroot,

You dont mind if I post the pic with you, me and Brandon do you?
Sam Mickel
2549. Samadai
Nightbaron,

unfortuanately(see what I did there?;) I don't speak computerese. Maybe if you could long hand it?
Rob Munnelly
2550. RobMRobM
@2547 - Egwene vision of marriage and baby in the Two Rivers while in T'AR, as I recall. But was it Moggy or Lanfear who was responsibie; I don't recall. Whoever did it was shocked that she was able to escape.

Lanfear did have swimming/biting dreams with Rand in the Two Rivers in T'AR but I don't believe that was intended as a trap.

Are there others? Rob
Barry T
2551. blindillusion
Nightbaron ~

Yep:

Fain kills Gedwyn and Torval then attacks Rand. He uses new powers to create an Illusion, but Rand slashes him with his sword. Fain flees.(WH,Ch33)


~~Quote from the Padan Fain section of the Encyclopaedia-Wot.
Guillaume Bergeron
2552. Nightbaron
RobMRobM @2550

Oh, right, ok, though that was in T'A'R, where anyone can do such a thing, One Power or not.

It's true that it sounds similar to what happens with the "flies time loop", though I still maintain it's more consistent with Fain's powers as shown than with the One Power as shown.

(Unless Lanfear had an inverted gateway right at the door which opened into the T'A'R version of that house, where she set up the dream trap... but I digress, I chose to believe the alleged Jordan quote, that Fain did it)

EDIT: Samadai, see your shoutbox. You can always reply to me on mine if you need further help!
Thomas Keith
2553. insectoid
::munching a cinnamon roll::

Free @2529: Thanks Free! ::writes down book titles:: Not that I couldn't have figured those out by myself, but wasn't actively looking yet. May go back to MG to snatch those.

Fork @2535: Nice review!

Free @2541: Well, it was pretty easy, as I was the only Asha'man in the whole store. :)

RobM² @2544: Wouldn't it be funny if Elaida nuked him? Suffa is a good damane.

Mmm, these things are good. Thanks Schrodinger ;)
Leslie Annis
2555. Lannis
forkroot @ 2535, Samadai and Freelancer: Thanks so much for the recaps, there's so many of us that just can't make it to readings! It's greatly appreciated! :)

(Sorry guys, no new baking... just cooking up some clean laundry... perpetual chores suck.)
Barry T
2556. blindillusion
RobMRobM@2544

I was thinking more along the lines of Fain hiding behind the corner of a building as Rand walks towards him, unknowing.

And just as Fain takes that first step some woman dumps her washwater out the window and Fain slips and breaks his neck.

Sure, Rand's ta'verenness could be said to of killed Fain, but the random, nameless woman provided the means.

But yes, the woman should get a cookie.
Rob Munnelly
2557. RobMRobM
@2556 - that would work but I'd feel guilty about the cookies that would burn to balance this happy event....
Birgit
2558. birgit
Any thoughts that Shaidar Haran was a 13/13 turned to dark character?

I don't think there are any good fades.

Could Fain's dagger kill the gholam?

The female a'dam was invented in Seanchan, but the male a'dam was found on this side of the ocean. Where does it come from? Could that be the clue from book 4?
T C
2559. Freelancer
blindillusion & Nightbaron

Guys, I have no trouble deferring to WoG about such a thing. I was unaware of the quote from RJ that it was Fain's doing, and instead attributed it to Lanfear due to~

1. The similarity to what Moghedien did to Egwene in Emond's Field in T'a'R.

2. The sighting of Lanfear by Uno (Ingtar?) in that chapter where Rand gets trapped.

I'm aware that what Moghedien did was a more likely a trick of T'a'R than of saidar, but prior to Winter's Heart there was no evidence that Fain could control a person perception of events that way, so Lanfear was the more logical choice.
T C
2560. Freelancer
RobMRobM@2544

"Luffa - please destroy the little man with the big knife and I'll give you a cookie."

Who is Luffa? Are you channeling O'Reilly? I bet you meant Suffa (Elaida). I will most certainly ROFL the first time I read her saying, "Please, mistress, Suffa will be a good damane from now on..."

Brandon, do you think you can squeeze that in?


Nightbaron@2547

In a note under the "Blue Carp Street" chapter on Encyclopaedia-wot, it says
Robert Jordan has confirmed that Fain has the ability to create illusions from the recent past as also demonstrated in TGH, Ch10.

Now of course, this is an indirect quote, but since Jordan referenced Rand's repeating vision from that house in TGH to show that he has done it before, it's fairly well settled.


Samadai@2549

To link photos in comments, you first need an online location of the photos. It cannot be linked from your local hard drive, and you cannot embed the photo file itself in a comment. So you need an account with photobucket, flikr, imageshack, etc. Don't use imageshack, I've given up on them after I couldn't resize anything easily. flikr and photobucket seem best. Once you upload a photo file to your account on chosen site, it's possible to grab the code needed for the message board. Have fun...
Guillaume Bergeron
2561. Nightbaron
Freelancer @2559

Hehe, yeah, I know what you mean. For the longest time I had assumed it was Lanfear as well, but I could never reconcile the HOW with what we knew about the One Power. So when I recently read the quote attributing the deed to Fain, it was a real "Aha!" moment for me. :) Thanks for the corroborating evidence!

I just love that all these things that I used to assume were inconsistencies in the early books eventually get explained away (like Ishamael's peculiar way of traveling in the EotW Prologue, which I had assumed was a goof, until we learned of the True Power).
T C
2562. Freelancer
With Fain on my mind, an idea bubbled to the surface.

In TSR, a Myrddraal being held prisoner by Faindeithdeth agrees to a deal of some kind, and we haven't seen further evidence of this yet. Whatever the agreement is, deciding to agree to it rather than die painfully made the Fade sweat. How evil or dangerous must an assignment be to scare shadowspawn?

Any chance this is part of what we're supposed to be hunting for?
Leslie Annis
2563. Lannis
@ Free: IIRC, Fain is a free agent, so perhaps the Fade was being ordered to abandon/mutiny orders from a Forsaken? Just a speculation...
Leslie Annis
2564. Lannis
And yes, it sounds like a good candidate for our hunt... :)
Barry T
2565. blindillusion
Nice one Free@2562

I've been thinking the mystery clue has something to do with the Tinkers. But that scene has always lurked in the back of my mind.

I hope it comes up at some point as it goes to show just how eVIL Fain is.

Do any Shadowspawn act OoC with a Myrddraal leading them during those books?

I'd guess this is something else for MasterAlThor to add to his list of homework assignments.
Barry T
2566. blindillusion
RE: Lanfear in the window...

Uno (get that, the one-eyed man) saw her twice during that section. He commented that it had to be the same woman. Ingtar thought he might be seeing things.

I always read that as Lanfear looking for the perfect time to strike...err get Rand alone.
Henry Loose
2567. schrodinger
Braig@2540

I'm not certain (I don't have the books with me), but I'm sure one of our resident guru's could assist us... I don't know if the wound on sammael happened during a regular practice before the war, or during the war once sammael turned. If it's the first case, the theory about LTT not having a sword in battle holds some water, whereas if the second is the case, the theory about LTT not having a sword in battle... well, lets just say its up creek w/o a paddle.

edit: actually, the scar could be from a power related battle: lightning, rock fragment, hardened air, etc.
Wilson Grooms
2568. alreadymadwithsuffa
Speaking of Suffa, was Suffa BWS' idea or RJ's?

Freelancer @2652
Errr.. whatever can make a Fade abandon his allegiance and join Fain can probably make the Fade sweat at least. The Fade can scare others with a look. Fain can scare Fades with a look. And no, no Trollocs acted OOC with Fain. They're not smart enough except for Narg. Fades were acting OOC though.
Ron Garrison
2569. Man-0-Manetheran
Luffa - pretty good name for ole Elaida - seeing how a luffa can really rub you raw.
Wilson Grooms
2570. daggers
I'm pretty sure the scar was made by LTT and the reason Sammael didn't get it healed was because of it being made by LTT, and he kept it as a reminder that he would one day best LTT
Tess Laird
2571. thewindrose
The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time:
Sammael's scar was a livid groove that slanted across his otherwise attractive face, as if a red-hot poker had been dragged from hairline to jaw.{...}In the fourth year of the war he suddenly went over to the Shawdow. {...} It was Lews Therin Telamon who gave him his scar, a scar he was determined to wear until Lews Therin lay defeated before him.

As Tel Janin Aellinsar, he was a world-renowned sportsman before the war, competing in a number of events, among them archery and a bloodless competition with swords, at which he was the world champion.

Eventually those loyal to the Dark One felt themselves stong enough to act. In a swift strike they made an attempt to free the Dark One completely and take control. This event was the actual beginning of the War of the Shadow, which pitted the followers and minions of the Dark against those who fought to resist, and which soon involved the whole world. During the resulting ten-year struggle, all the forgotten facets of war were rediscovered, in many cases twisted by the Dark.
Some sports, such as swordplay, formerly considered a tame form of exercise, were reinvented as deadly martial arts.

Edit for groove - feel Free to point out other typos:)
Roger Powell
2572. forkroot
Quick note to Samadai before I run to the airport.

Don't feel bad at all re: transport. First of all, you needed to go in the opposite direction. Secondly, I thought I was OK because the Blue line was still running to downtown. It wasn't until I got downtown that I found that the Red line that I needed was done.

Feel free to post any and all pictures.

Now I'm off and running.... (huff! huff!)
Andy McKellar
2573. Kellar23
One of the longest, most enjoyable threads I read, I dont feel I know enough to contribute but I love reading.

Thanks to Leigh and everyone onwards :)
Barry T
2574. blindillusion
Kellar23@2573

Everyone has something to contribute in the bunker. Speculation is always fun. Feel free to lean back on your knife.
T C
2575. Freelancer
amw@2568

Yes, Fain can scare a Fade. But that Myrddraal is already bound up as Fain's captive, has already been tortured and humiliated. It is the offer Fain makes which causes the Fade to sweat. I want to know what that could be.


Thewindrose@2571

Thank you. Umm, I had to read the first part like three times, trying to figure out a "livid grove", before I realized it must be "livid groove". Curse my eyes.

Sad that it doesn't specify how, or precisely when, Lews Therin gave him the scar. We can reliably presume it was a fencing wound, I suppose. I mean, if they faced off once the War of Power was underway, I don't see them agreeing to forego the Power and using steel. Maybe if it was Hanzo steel.


forkroot@2572

Since when do you give someone permission to feel me? ::stare:: Oy, I'm losing it. Time for this week to end so I can have my brain back.


Kellar23

Bah, you think you need to know something to comment here? Have you read the stuff I write? Come on in, the water's. . .

wet.


Edit: blindillusion@2574

What, you too? I'm tellin' you, first one that tries it...
Tess Laird
2576. thewindrose
blindillusion - That sounds kind of bad out of context - the knife part:) But indeed, it always a pleasure to hear from everyone, novice to Amrylin if you will...

I am looking forward to this hinted about WoT Dictionary that will supposedly come out after AMoL!! The book I just quoted from @2571 is not cannon, so not everthing is correct:(
Sam Mickel
2577. Samadai
Hey everyone, I think my words per post count is going way up


So here is my report from the Gathering Storm book signing Last night In Portland OR.

First off Powells book store is enormous. it is roughly 3 times as big as my local Barnes and Noble/Borders stores. It is by far the biggest book store I have been in in my life. And it isn't even the biggest in Portland, its downtown store I'm told covers an entire block, is 5 stories tall (I believe that is what I was told) with a parking garage on top.

I arrived at about 5:30 and was about the 30th person there,(one of the gentleman I ended up talking to most of the night had been there since 10:00am). Another girl had driven 600 miles from central Idaho to come to the signing. Her Father had come with her and walked up to Brandon and thanked him for making his daughters night. Brandon got up and shook both their hands.

At 7:00 the storm leaders came out and Brandon followed about 5 minutes later. I know, that like me, many of you have followed his signings and what he talks about and probably have it memorized, but I'm telling this story:) He talked about his love of reading, and mentioned going into his local bookstore and seeing tEotW for the first time. He had to come back and get it a week later because he was broke. He mentioned how RJ and the WoT is the reason he chose to become a writer. He then talked about perusing the internet one day and finding out about RJ dying, how it was like finding out all his childhood friends had died at one time. he talked about the eulogy he wrote for RJ. How he came down stairs one morning(noon) and got the message from Harriet asking to talk to him. He finally decided to write the books because he could not think of another person who was a huge fan who had studied the story as much as he has and was also a published writer. He talked about flying to meet Harriet at her house, she invited him in with an offer of food, and asked him what she could get him. He said "the ending of the book and who killed Asmodean". I too have read this many times before but the impact of hearing it was phenomenol.

BWS then took a few questions that have been answered to death. One question he took that I hadn't yet seen was, Was Masema just having visions or was someone actually there with him? BWS answered Masema is crazy, but he is not deluded about someone being there. I then asked has Demandreds alter ego been seen since CoT? He said that is a good question, but I'm not going to answer it. I actually asked this next question after the signing but since it is relevant to this question I am putting it here. I asked has Demandreds alter ego been mentioned in the books but not seen? He gave me a very guarded look and said, That is a very well though out question, paused for a moment, and said " there have been to few characters introduced in the last few books for me to answer that. Speculators unite.

The question segment ended and Brandon sat down to start signing books. I was talking to several people around me when I heard, Is there a poster named Samadai from Tor.com here? Needless to say I was shocked to hear someone announce that, I turned around raised my hand and said "thats me". Well the Powells book store worker said to me "well we have Forkroot from Tor.com right over here" I looked over to see him waving at me, he came over and told me how he ended up there( which he talked about in his posting). As forkroot mentioned we also collected a gathering of people to talk to.

They called the ticket holders up 10 people at a time and so I was in the 3rd group pf people near the end of the line #28. When I was at the front of the line I introduced myself to Brandon. I told him my screen name at Tor.com said I heard He at met Freelancer at another signing, he remembers you. I then mentioned that we all had come of with some more questions for him and were wondering if he had time. He told me to stick around to the end and he would spend some time with us( I told him about Forkroot as well). Done with my time I went back and hung out with Forkroot and the others, where we discussed all the same things we all discuss on here. Forkroot then had his turn. After he was done there was a few more people and then the storm leaders had the picture and signings. Forkroot and I had our picture taken with Brandon, then we all went outside after profusely thanking the Powells store staff, and enviously thanking the Storm leaders.

Out in front of the store Forkroot, myself and a couple of our new friends gathered around Brandon. Forkroot asked his questions first which he already posted up there at 2535. Then we got down to the questions that you guys gave me.

Master al'Thor wanted me to ask. Have the effects of the Bowl of Winds been fully realized? Yes, but the weather patterns are so huge that it will still take a long time to normalize everything.

Man o Manetheren wanted me ask. Will we hear anything more about Shara or the Land of Madmen? That was our first RAFO

Amalisa had me ask. Has Egwenes dream of having her head on a block and an axe falling come true? Brandon answered, It has not she is still in danger of that happening. Then he Looked at us and said, " it may, or may not also have something to do with Mins vision of Gawyn either saving or killing Egwene. Big smile on his face for that one.
Great job Amalisa, you receiced the correct Question bonus.

RobMRobM had me ask 3 questions. Will we find out where Morgase learned the 2 rivers speech? Will Tam end up with a wife? Was Kari AL'Thor related to Morgase?
RobM you get the triple RAFO award

Nightbaron had 3 questions as well. Is Shara or the Land of Madmen involved in the last battle? 5th RAFO

Was Moridin aware of Shaidar Harans plans with Semirhage? His answer was, word for word. The Dark One trusts Moridin more than any other Forsaken.

NB's last question was. Is the big clue no one is talking about in books 4 thru 6 or books 4 and 6? He answered "It is in the section of books 4 thru 6, but not necesarily in all of them. It could be only in 1 of them 2 of them or all 3.

TheWindRose asked. Are there any forsaken around Elayne? Brandon paused for a moment, then said. So many people are trying to figure out where Demandred is, I am not sure I can answer that. Forkroot and I both said no not Demandred, we were talking Cyndane or Moghedian. Then we said for example some postulate that Sylvaese is Cyndane. he said "no, sylvaese is not a forsaken and was never intended to be.

TheWindRose next question was. If the SAS and TAS delegations to the Black tower will be 13x13'd? and so we had our 6th RAFO.

SteelBlaidd asked 2 questions. Did RJ leave notes on records of how he used symbols in the WoT, ex. colors White meaning life, black meaning death and the Dark One? "He left extensive notes that we would have to wait for the encyclopedia that Maria is going to put out after the books are finished.

His other question was. Did Egwene squeeze Moggy for info on the Dream World? That was our First MAFO( Maria And Find Out).
He also said that Egwene is a powerful dreamer and it seems unlikely that she didn't squeeze her for the info.

Freelancer asked. Did Moridin sense when Rand Channeled the True Power through him? Our 7th RAFO. But he did say. "We don't know if that is what happened or not and that might or might not have been Moridins plan all along. we don't have enough info to decide that yet.

DId Shaidar Haran know Moridin had forbidden the forsaken from rescuing Semirhage? Yes he did, no further comment.

Moridin vs. Shaidar Haran, who is the boss? He again stated that Moridin is the Forsaken the DO trusts the most and not enough info is known about SH.

The last question I asked was. Will Elaida be able to withhold traveling from the Seanchan? He gave us another look, and with a smirk said," I will say that is going to be an onscreen RAFO." Right after saying that he said. "Let me ask you this, Do any of you believe Elaida has the will to resist the A'dam? We all said No right away, he gave us a smirk and shrugged his arms. Now although that wasn't a definitive statement, done with hisbody language it damn near locked it up.

We all thanked him profusely for his time(20-30 minutes). Forkroot and I told him we thought he did a great job and we couldn't think of another person who is more suited to finishing the books. We said goodbye to the others, Forkroot and I shook hands and we went home( Forkroot I am very sorry I didn't offer you a ride to your hotel)

I forgot to put this up there but while BWS was signing the storm leaders were walking around giving out cool things. I got 3 bumper stickers, ''I killed Asmodean", "Bela is a darkfriend", and the WoT symbol. Also a map of Randland, a bookmark, and 2 flyers, one for a wtiters conference with BWS in Los Angeles and the other for JordanCon 2010.

I promised pictures and will get them on here but I cant do them here at work. So after I get home I will put them here.
Sam Mickel
2578. Samadai
I hope everyone enjoys it.


Forkroot if I forgot anything please let us know.
Wilson Grooms
2579. J.Dauro
Finally caught up. Whew. Getting a late start on the book almost killed me on the comments.

I brought cheesecake for the bunker. And I want to try one of the Maple Bacon Bars.


alreadymadwithBS @2331

I have a couple of signed books from BWS. And his signature does look as bad as mine. Just how it goes, I guess.
Barry T
2580. blindillusion
Before I go read Samadai's comment, just want to LMAO for a moment at Free's comment.

And Wind...yeah. I agree. My son was pulling my hair as I wrote that comment. Bit distracted. Off to read Samadai's comment.
Ron Garrison
2581. Man-0-Manetheran
Bela is a Darkfriend????????? Say it isn't so! Damn. Her cover was deeper than Verin's!

Got my first RAFO. Yippee. BWS is getting very cagey. (Almost) every answer can be taken multiple ways. Read And FInd Out they are NOT mentioned again - or RAFO that they are!

THANKS Sam!
Tess Laird
2582. thewindrose
Samadai - that was awesome, and how cool is it that BWS wants to get together with fans and talk, Freelancer has described him perfectly.

So can we speculate that there may be a forskaen by Elayne by the pause? Perhaps one we were not even thinking of?? We know Duhara is by her - BA. And someone had to be behind Arymilla Marne's rise to major player - she didn't do that on her own.

I have read a lot of the storm leaders reports, and you guys waiting until the end of the night are getting some great answers comparitively. I think BWS has heard some good things about us(or maybe he has heard of the bunker and is unsure about our intentions;).
Gbed
2583. Braig
@TWR

Well, we should e-mail BWS and have him join us. Just let him know that the bunker is only for riding out the Last Battle.....and cookie consumption!

Back to the clues in Ch. 4-6, I'm placing my vote for Mat's hat. After all, it IS a bloody good hat! Maybe it has qualities that he isn't suspecting, considering where he actually got it.

Another thought that I've had is what are the swirls our trio see, actually? I have never really seen this discussed, but that means nothing as I haven't been involved in the online community much.
Is it possible that they have not realized everything that those windows into each others situations mean? Might there be other things that they can do with this "ability" that they don't realize?
Brett Michie
2584. bchurch
Samadai and Forkroot

I am SOOOO kicking myself right now!! I just relocated to Portland last month and have had sporadic internet internet access and had no idea about the signing yesterday. I feel like such a bad fan. Thank you for your recaps though; it assuages my shame a little to be able to attend the signing vicariously through your accounts.
Ron Garrison
2585. Man-0-Manetheran
Ta'veren Color Swirls:

Given the many times each of theThree experienced this new phenomenon, I'm quite certain it will play a major role between now and TG. I found it a bit annoying the way they all dismissed it as an unwanted distraction.

When Mat was wondering where Rand was, he did look for clues. Since Rand was indoors, there was nothing that Mat could use to distinguish location. At some point, someone is going to "reach through" to the other(s).
Alice A
2586. Wetlandernw
Braig @2583 - Funny that we haven't talked about the swirlycolors thing... though I'd guess it'll come up in the re-read. It's been driving me up the wall - RPM should be using it to communicate somehow, or at the very least they should take advantage of the visibility it gives them of one another. Of course, they don't know that each of them can see both of the others, so there's a perfectly good reason they aren't taking full advantage of it, but still...! (And of course, there's the little disadvantage of sometimes seeing one another in... private moments. Oops.) I do hope that they work out a way to make use of it soon, though. Ought to come in handy.

About those Storm Leaders... when ToM comes out, I think we need to get Storm Leaders from this group. There are people on here who could do a MUCH better job of reporting on these events than they got this round. Some of them were okay, but honestly, can't these people think of anything to ask that hasn't been asked and answered at every event already? *sigh* And can't they write without sounding completely giddy? **sigh**
Henry Loose
2587. schrodinger
@man-o-manetheran

I think you've hit it on the nose

if it started around that time.

a not so widely discussed phenomenon that will prove to be important.

good job.
Julian Augustus
2588. Alisonwonderland
Topknot@2525:
Brandon did a charity event where he auctioned off cameos in the books for donations, the highest bidder got his name and description as one of the characters in the books as well as a line.

Jordan himself did the same thing before KoD was published, and from what I understand raised a huge amount of money for charity.

Remember the character Chaz Guyborn in KoD, the one who came to Elayne's assistance with some troops, was made a lieutenant of the guards, and performed some heroics in the battle for Caemlyn? That was, I understand, the name of the winner of RJ's naming raffle. His wife bought him his shot at immortality.
Gbed
2589. Braig
The swirls would be quite useful, I agree.
Especially if it's a way of pattern enabled traveling for ta'veren. hmmmmmmm
"Ride your Thread, Boys!" woohee
Barry T
2590. blindillusion
bchurch@2584

Yeah, know how you feel. I could have gone to the signing in the Creator's backyard...err, Charleston. Could of met R.Fife and everything. Eh well, I plan on going to the ToM signing because I'll most likely still be in South Carolina.

And I hope to be able to make it to JordanCon. Atlanta isn't too far away...if that's where it's going to be again.

Samadai@2577,
Think you could hook a guy up with the skinny on what exactly that JordanCon 2010 flyer says...


And Samadai, Forkroot, thanks much for getting more fuel for the fire. We'll burn all the theories to facts before we're done
...mmwhahahaahha*cough*cough* sorry...

Wetlandernw@2586

Want to go ahead and bumrush Dragonmount and pepper them with stones...err...reasons some of us should be Storm Leaders for ToM?
Sam Mickel
2591. Samadai
Sorry ladies and gentlemen, due to the technical incompetence of someone,(i'm not saying who):( pictures will be tomorrow
Thomas Keith
2592. insectoid
Samadai @2577: Nice report! Glad you and Fork got to meet.

M-o-M @2585: Hmm...interesting. When did the Technicolor Ta'veren-o-Vision first appear? AFAIK the colors first appeared around WH or CoT, but I'm not certain.
Alice A
2593. Wetlandernw
blindillusion - Yup. I think I'm going to apply next time around (at least if they have a signing in the area) and in the "why pick me" section put in a plug for any and all Tor.com commenters as being among the most knowledgeable, fun-loving, literate and articulate fans they will ever have the pleasure to meet, and any who apply should be seriously considered for the job. Can you imagine a signing where all the Storm Leaders are from the tordotcom gang? Wooo-hooooo!! We might not be very efficient when we all got together, but would it ever be a fun night!!! Wish Atlanta wasn't so far away - I'd love to go to JordanCon 2010, but about the only way it could be farther from me and still be in the ConUS would be Florida. At least in Florida I have a cousin I could nominally be visiting. Don't know a soul in Georgia. *sigh* And I no longer work for a company that has me flying all over the country, either. Just don't see it happening.

Can't believe it's taken me this long to say it, but thanks to lbrown, forkroot and Samadai(!) for your reports back on the Portland signing. You really make me wish I'd been able to attend Seattle's, but it was another thing that just wasn't happening. (Tell me this isn't ridiculous - the signing was officially from 7 to 10 pm, but the bookstore closes at 8, and if you weren't there by closing time you couldn't get in. Oy. How stupid is that???) Anyway, I'm really glad so many here were able to go - it's been great reading your reports. And thanks for all the time to ask questions on our behalf!! Hey, seriously, we need to get some reps on the Storm Leader teams next time so they can go with a list of intelligent questions. You guys did great.
Henry Loose
2594. schrodinger
jordancon is in atlanta? definitely going, even if I have to skip classes.

by the way... I thought storm leader was a reference to the gathering storm... so wouldn't towers of midnight need something new for the name? like tower leader or something? (although that would be lame)
T C
2595. Freelancer
Samadai,

Well done. Good batch of questions. Pretty soon a plot-based question will have no chance of getting anything but a RAFO, or a heavily qualified non-answer. Sneaky like Verin.

Speaking of which, something else sneaky is going on. When I asked about Rand channeling through Moridin, between Brandon's words and his body language it was a moderately strong affirmative in spite of being an Aes Sedai answer. Now he's qualifying even a RAFO to say we can't be sure. Either someone near him is reading this board and feeding him our intel, or he is lurking here and using our discussions to refine his answers.
::waves @ Brandon just in case::

Alright, now I have some new questions...

Where is the gholam? It was still chasing Mat weeks out of Ebou Dar, but no word of it this time.

Slayer has employed Gray Men on numerous occasions. Are there any left? Has he enlisted any new people to become a Soulless?

Speaking of Slayer, what has he done since failing to kill Rand at Far Madding?

Alanna. She showed up with Verin at Emond's Field, and Verin never did answer Perrin's question of why they were there. He didn't believe her that it was a hunt for channelers. Alanna bonded Rand without permission. Alanna and Sheriam were novices together. Alanna and Verin (and Liandrin) are part of Siuan's entourage in Fal Dara. Alanna is in the Stone of Tear with Darlin and Caraline when Rand visits there in KoD. And finally...

Twice during The Butcher's Yard (ACoS Ch2), Rand points at someone without looking. Once at Alanna, ordering her to Heal him after Taim had offered and Rand wouldn't let Taim touch him. The other at Corlan Dashiva when "randomly" selecting an Asha'man to accompany him.

Each of those things is very thin on its own. Stacked up they make a suggestion, if not strong evidence. Has Alanna been Black all this time?
Sean Banawnie
2596. Seanie
Samadai & Forkroot :
Thanx for the Q&A.BS sounds like a greatguy/fan/writer all rolled up in one. I've said it before and believe it even more now. WOT is in good hands.

Peace favor your mouse .
T C
2597. Freelancer
It's not necessary to "bumrush" Dragonmount about being Storm Leaders. Jason had the idea to select strong fan volunteers to do the gruntwork at the tour stops, so that the smaller bookshops wouldn't need to hire temp help for the event. Very smart move, and it worked out great. So, Dragonmount managed the whole business, holding the essay contests to select them. Any of us could have applied. The San Diego signing being on a Sunday midday, I couldn't consider committing to the time, with pre-existing obligations at church, or I would have strongly considered it. Though, after the fact, I would have been the world's oldest Storm Leader by far, from what I've seen. Awkward...


Wetlandernw,

Did you try calling in to the Seattle event, or arranging for a signature? I'll be bummed if you got nothing to show for his appearance that close to you.


insectoid@2592

Hmm, good question. When did that behavior start? I had been thinking it was earlier, like PoD, but now I'm not sure. Will check in a bit...


schrodinger@2594

Interesting thought. How about Tower Guard? I'm calling it here and now.
Alice A
2598. Wetlandernw
2594. schrodinger @2594 ...I thought storm leader was a reference to the gathering storm... so wouldn't towers of midnight need something new for the name? like tower leader or something? (although that would be lame) Yeah, that would be lame, wouldn't it? Tower Guard, maybe? Who knows. Whether they come up with a new name or not, though, last I checked they plan to do it again when ToM comes out. So when someone sees the announcement come out, we'll post the link on tordot and then we can all rush over and apply. :)
Alice A
2599. Wetlandernw
Freelancer - Hey, great minds... I forgot to post my comment and it was sitting there in preview mode while you came up with the exact same title. So you and I can be the "oldsters" next time? I noticed that for all they were hoping for a "diverse range of ages" I didn't see anyone in the pics that looked much older than BWS himself (other than Harriet, of course).

No, I didn't end up calling in. I had places to be and things to do until about 9 pm, so obviously I couldn't make it before the store closed. I checked his twitter to see if he said anything about calling in (he didn't) but I didn't have the energy to try much else. Had a splitting headache all day (in spite of afore-mentioned things to do) and it became just one of the things on the too-many list. I'll survive. But next time, now that I know where to look in advance and all that good stuff, I'll make sure I can get there. Hopefully the timing will be better and I can try for Tower Guard! ;) And of course I'll take along my TGS and the copies of Mistborn, etc. that I'll pick up between now and then...
T C
2600. Freelancer
Honestly, folks, Wetlandernw and I are not Corsicans, but I don't know how that happens so often. The "great minds" cliche just doesn't cover it.

I moved my pics to a better photo server, and revised my San Diego report, just in case anyone cares. Better sized photos of Brandon @2091

P.S. Brandon has a blog entry up while he's waiting on an airport delay. It's about his Magic duel tomorrow against Jason of Dragonmount. Funny stuff.
Barry T
2601. blindillusion
@Various RE: the swirling colors ~

~ They seem to appear for Rand in As the Plow Breaks the Earth, Chapter 18 of aCoS. But they seem to first appear as a symptom of his insanity as this is also the point where it seems he starts to manifest aspects of LTT's personality. It's interesting to note that this is also the chapter where Cadsuane shows up for the first time.

~~ In Floating Like Snow, Chapter 13 of tPoD, Rand is thinking about the colors, but these thoughts are coming from his wondering if LTT is real. He is wondering if the voice was ever there. which is wasn't, since it's a symptom of his insanity =).
isn't this the point where the "voice" of LTT flees as a result of Cadsuane asking Rand if he hears voices?


~~~ Then in Leaving the Prophet, Chapter 1 of WH, we have :
Perrin had no time for the Murandian's sulks. Rand had sent him to bring back Masema, and Masema was coming. As always of late when he thought of Rand, colors swirled in his head, and as always, he ignored them.

This would be the first time another member of RPM (thanks Wetlandernw) mentions the colors.

~~~~ And from Another Plan, Chapter 29 of WH, we have Mat with:
"Who cares what stories people tell?" A male a'dam? Light, if the Black Ajah had gotten that onto Rand's neck, or the Seanchan had.... Those colors whirled through his head again, and he made himself stop thinking about Rand. "Gossip isn't going to hurt...anybody." No colors that time. He could avoid it as long as he did not think about.... The colors swirled again....


Thank you IdealSeek. Now, this was just a search for "colors swirled".

I did a quick search for "colors whirled" as well and found that the earliest quote for that phrase was Chapter 11 of WH. I took a quick look and that would be Rand's moment of RPM kaleidoswirl in WH when he's thinking of Mat not being in the Royal Palace.

::sigh::It would seems "colors flash" as well. At the end of Rand's section of Ideas of Importance Rand actually sees Mat's face in the ta'veren kaleidoswirl.

Bah, I'm done =). The colors appear to start for Rand as far back as aCoS and for the others in WH.

edit: Misspelled "stories"
edit: edit: For easier understanding, Ideas of Importance is Chapter 11 of WH.
T C
2602. Freelancer
I compulsively double-check photos on my camera's memory card before deleting, and this time I'm very glad I did. A photo I failed to include...

Bouke de Boer
2603. Bouke
Freelancer @2595: Nice deduction on Alanna! I think she's still up for debate, since she wasn't on Verin's list...

The color-thingy started after LoC, IIRC. By that time, our ta'veren trio had split up, so the Pattern would start demanding that they meet again later on. I don't recall when it is mentioned first, but I think it was Rand who first notices the colors and dismisses them.
Since it occurs after LoC, I don't think it qualifies for the Big Clue (TM). Nevertheless, worth discussing. Thoroughly.
edit I don't refresh this page while I'm catching up, because it takes forever (forever, I tell you!), but blindillusion@2601: that covers it lock, stock, and barrel. Way better than my clouded memory...

Various on swords: I always assumed that war and related subjects were reinvented prior to the War of the Shadow, but reading these posts, it would seem that this period of dubious inventivity (is that a word?) happened during said war. There goes my theory that LTT et al., due to their increased lifespan, had had lots of time to get a rank Awesome in sword-fighting, lethal.

Back to the cookie-stash, catching up on 80+ posts takes it out of you...
Lindy Brown
2604. lbrown
@forkroot-
I've never tried those Maple Bacon Bars, despite living in Portland for the last 17 years. I don't frequent downtime too often. I live in Aloha which is right by Beaverton, so I only had to come 3 (or 4) miles to the signing. I was so glad Brandon was coming practically to my front door. I hope you enjoyed your stay in Portland.

@forkroot and samadai-
Sorry I didn't come and talk to you guys. I would have loved to be there afterwards when you guys were grilling Brandon. But I probably wouldn't have been able to stay that long anyway because my boyfriend was nice enough to come with me (although he's not a WOT fan) and he didn't want to stay real late in the evening. What time was it when you guys left?
Thomas Keith
2605. insectoid
Free @2595 re: Alanna: Could be coincidence. She hasn't done anything AFAIK like lie or anything. But it does merit asking... if only to get a RAFO.

Free @2600: You do mean 2091, don't you? :)
These Photobucket pics aren't going to suddenly disappear, are they? (Happened on Dragonmount.) And, why is your pic with BWS now black & white? Inquiring minds are curious.

Blind @2601: Huh. I guess it's not the Big Clue then.

Free @2602: That picture is very important. :) Our friend in Santa Clara was very happy to see that Mysterious Galaxy still has her photo of RJ.
Lindy Brown
2606. lbrown
@forkroot and samadai-
Oh, and I also wanted to thank you guys for your reports of the signing. Did either of you hear what the first question was during the General Q&A at the beginning? It was a guy at the back of the crowd who Brandon called up to the front to give him a RAFO card. I didn't hear what his question was. :(


@ 2447. Samadai
[Egwene] thought of one Name( I can't remember it) that was black along with Elza That had sworn to Rand. But she is not with Rand she is in Caihien with the sisters that stayed there.


I looked this up. It was Nalaene Forrell. She is mentioned is being “ bound to Rand,” as well as Elza. I tried looking her up on Encyclopedia-wot to see if we had seen her before and she wasn’t even listed.

@2504. Tektonica
Good get on the Balefire comment! Ummmm....we should be looking for that. Has anyone besides Rand and Moridan and Moraine used it?


Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. And he said it in response to my question about the events of LoC , so it makes me wonder if any of the events of LoC were caused by balefire. I don’t see how they could, though. I guess it could’ve been just a clue to what Demandred is doing in the series as a whole.


@2543. blindillusion
But then, I don't recall the Illusion he crafts in KoD. And as I don't have my books, I cannot look it up.


I think the illusion is the one in WH. I don’t think we’ve seen Fain at all since WH.

@2568. alreadymadwithsuffa or anyone

What does OOC mean? And AFAIK?


@2583. Braig
Another thought that I've had is what are the swirls our trio see, actually?


Has anyone ever considered what would happen if the 3 are together again? If the color swirling thing is still happening when they are together, they are going to get major headaches. They’re going to have constant color swirling and images in their heads. Hopefully, this is only a phenomenon that happens when they are apart.


@2601. blindillusion

Does Rand see either Perrin or Mat in his first coloring swirling in ACoS? Does he just see the colors?
Barry T
2607. blindillusion
insectoid@2605 re: 2601

I don't think this was ever thought to be the missing clue.

It's just something that should be discussed. Wetlandernw mentioned this in regards Braig@2583.

Then the question arose as to when they started. As I'm often bored after my wife and son go to bed, and spend many nights fighting a years-long battle with insomnia, I decided to answer the question.

And as I mentioned once so long ago...a few days ago I believe...I do love doing research. =)

lbrown@2606

RE: Fain. Yes, I noticed that after doing a little bit more research once I got home from work. Regardless, though, thank you for taking the time to send a reply.

RE: Colors. No, he just sees the colors. I believe ~ and I could be wrong as I didn't look up all the instances where Rand sees the colors~ that the first time Rand sees either Mat or Perrin is in the section I mentioned in my comment. It even goes so far as to say Rand stumbled because he was so surprised to actually see Mat's face.

RE: What will happen when RPM are together again? I'd imagine if Min is anywhere near them she's going to need sunglasses because those sparks are going to be in a freaking FURY.

Also, I think once RPM is back together the swirls will stop. It's much like the Pattern needing the Dragon Reborn and spinning out False Dragons in answer to that need. The Pattern needs them together and hopefully it'll be soon.

just as long as they don't start thinking how the other knows more about women though....blah
T C
2608. Freelancer
insectoid@2605

If pics disappear, it's because they no longer exist where the link claims they do. If I renamed, or folderized, photos that I have linked somewhere else, the link will go bad. Probably what happened with that one Storm Leader report.

On the B&W photo, it seemed to look better. To me, anyway.


lbrown,

OOC = Out of character
AFAIK = As far as I know
NTTAWWT = Not that there's anything wrong with that
Tricia Irish
2609. Tektonica
Samadai questions@2577

Thanks so much! Great questions and a few new things to chew on, snarl, chomp chomp...
Glad you had a great time. We do love hearing about it all and it is so nice to know what a great guy BWS is. I can't think of another Fantasy writer I've read who could do a better job. Looking forward to the pix! Good luck on that, it sounds, ummmm, technical....

Interesting that BWS said the Moridan is the FS the DO trusts most, I assumed that, as he is N'aeblis.....but that brings up a couple of points...
1. Does the DO know of his connection to Rand? I assumed that was caused by the crossed BF accident, and was not a planned event to link the DO minion to Rand. Moridan seems "surprised" by the link, so I'm going with accident.
2. Would the D.O. TRUST Moridan if he knew of the connection? It could be helpful to the DO, but then again, we've seen Moridan suffer as Rand suffers, and he might "help" Rand is some instance to escape pain or a deadly situation, not knowing the effect it would have on himself.

Re: Egwene's head on the block......So it hasn't happened and has to do with Gawyn either helping or hurting her....in my search for "the big clue" in book 4, I got sidetracked in chapter 1 by a number of Min's viewings, when she goes to the WT as Elmindreda with messages from Moraine to Siuan. She talks with Gawyn and sees:

"Gawyn was going to be wounded on the day the Aes Sedai died.....and he was going to be hurt more than the blood told, hurt somehow deeper than wounds of the flesh."
Also:
"...his face a bloody mask. A sword floated above his head and a banner waved behind it. On the sword, the symbol of a blademaster. I could not say if it belonged to Gawyn or threatened him. The banner bore his sigil, the charging White Boar, but on a field of GREEN, rather than the RED of Andor."

Isn't Green the Seanchan color, that really dark green? Or is it the Green Ajah, or something i"m not getting? Doesn't look like a happy ending for Gawyn and Egs to me.....Any thoughts gurus?

Braig@2583

LOL...of course, Mat's Hat!!

About the swirls. I always kind of assumed it was some sort of "energy" moving along the pattern pulling at these guys to get back together or work in concert.....which, of course, they slough off and ignore. Hopefully, they'll figure out it's useful and employ this communication mode.

Freelance@2594

Good get on Alanna! I always just thought she was kind of pathetic, whining and crying all the time, but maybe she's being punished in some way by the DO or FS, for not keeping Rand close and under control. Very impressive number of ties to Verin. Of course, we now know that Verin was Black, but really White, in her heart, so to speak, so maybe she was just keeping an eye on Alanna after she did the bonding with Rand to see that she didn't do something bad or stupid to him? Has she done Anything of note?

And great picture of BWS with RJ's picture as well. Awwwww. Miss him.....

Thanks all. I've now caught up to you busy night time posters and can have breakfast....would a Maple Bacon Bar be considered breakfast? What are they?????
Ron Garrison
2610. Man-0-Manetheran
insectoid @ 2592

I could be wrong, but I don't recall this happening before this book. Third opinion? It happened in this book all the time!

edit: Thanks for the great research, blindillusion. It's getting really difficult to scroll this thread.
Guillaume Bergeron
2611. Nightbaron
Tektonica @2609
The banner bore his sigil, the charging White Boar, but on a field of GREEN, rather than the RED of Andor."

Isn't Green the Seanchan color, that really dark green? Or is it the Green Ajah, or something i"m not getting?

I believe the White Boar on a field of green is the standard of the Younglings.

@various

I don't think Alanna is Black Ajah. I think her purpose in the story is to die at the Worst Possible Time for Rand. Just my gut feeling.
Ron Garrison
2612. Man-0-Manetheran
Musings on Hinder's Trap

My re-read last night was Mat's adventures in Hinderstap. Yep, given RJ's naming conventions, the fact that it sounds like Hinder's Trap is a pretty good clue (or red herring) about what's going on there. (Tonybere said it here first.) Of course it failed to trap our ta'veren boy, but inns are filled with those it did trap. The new icon suggests an unraveling of the pattern. It looks like crochet work where threads are being pulled. Trap or unraveling - probably not important. I took the whole sequence as more of a side story than something pertinent, but I could be wrong.

Only mystery in my mind is the missing three soldiers. No one, I mean NO one wonders, "Where's Huey, Dewey and Louis?" Given Mat's concern for every one of his men, it is totally unbelievable that they could ride back to camp and never notice the three were missing! This just screams "error!"

Lannis reported that BWS said, "the three that seem unaccounted for when everyone else escapes are not 'forgotten' and their circumstances are RAFO." Joline failing to include her warders in counting horses was acknowledged as an error, and I think this one is too, IMHO - regardless of his AS reply.

OK, assuming they were left behind intentionally by the author, then I think it is safe to assume that they were killed and awoke in an empty bed and are doomed to repeat that forever or until _____ happens. Mayor Barlden: "The first people trapped here after nightfall were relatives of Sammrie the cooper. We found blood on the walls of his home the next morning. But his sister and her family were safely asleep in the beds he'd given them. Now they have the same nightmares we do."

"What in the bloody name of Hawkwing's left hand is going on here?" Mat demanded.

Left hand? OK, I have no clue where this expression came from. I don't recall hearing it before. Rand lost his left hand. Did something happen to Hawkwing's left hand that I don't recall? Does any of this matter? Sorry 'bout the WoTxt, but it bothers me.
Lindy Brown
2613. lbrown
@2607. blindillusion
RE: What will happen when RPM are together again? I'd imagine if Min is anywhere near them she's going to need sunglasses because those sparks are going to be in a freaking FURY.


LOL!


@ 2608. Freelancer
OOC = Out of character
AFAIK = As far as I know
NTTAWWT = Not that there's anything wrong with that


Thanks for the info.
Helen Peters
2614. Helen
2601. blindillusion

@Various RE: the swirling colors ~

~ They seem to appear for Rand in As the Plow Breaks the Earth, Chapter 18 of aCoS. But they seem to first appear as a symptom of his insanity as this is also the point where it seems he starts to manifest aspects of LTT's personality. It's interesting to note that this is also the chapter where Cadsuane shows up for the first time.


Hate to contradict, especially as I was getting over my obsession and back to sanity myself. ACoS, Chapter 7, Pitfalls and Tripwires. He thinks back to time in the box, 'just him, and the pain and the thirst and the voice of a long dead madman.....His friend. Something flashed in his mind. Not images, just flickers of colour and motion....The flashes had begun inside the chest, them and a thousand more hallucinations.'
Bouke de Boer
2615. Bouke
Tektonica @2609:
The banner is indeed that of the Younglings. For the other part: that vision was fulfilled after Siuan was deposed and rescued. His face was a bloody mask when he let Min, Siuan and Leane escape. He earned the heron-marked sword that day by killing Hamar.

M-o-M @2612:
I just passed that chapter in my re-read as well and the remark about Hawkwing's left hand sprung out at me as well! I have no idea what it could mean, though...
Barry T
2616. blindillusion
Helen@2614

No contradiction there. My search on IdealSeek followed certain phrases. I began with colors swirled and then noticed that the colors also whirl and flash. Now it would seem they come in flickers as well.

And by following the bouncing ball, one can see the evolution of the Colors:

They start with Rand as flickers because he's in the box and he needs a part of RPM, namely Perrin.

They grow in intensity the longer RPM is apart.

Rand begins to push the colors out to Mat and Perrin.

Rand sees Mat's face in the Colors.

Eventually, each of them can see moments of the others lives in the Colors....

Of course, that's a rather condensed version. But with the beginning based in Rand's need, as shown in the passage provided by Helen, we can see the Colors are getting stronger the longer these guys are apart.

sorry if that makes no sense...I'm in a bit of a rush...off to the zoo
Lindy Brown
2617. lbrown
2607 & 2616. blindillusion

I found that part where Rand first sees Mat's face when the colors whirl in his head (the part you referenced in post 2607 where Rand stumbles, meaning this must be the first time because he's taken so by surprise.) (Right?)

It's WH, Chapter 11, Ideas of Importance. Rand arrived in the Royal Palace in Caemlyn with Min and is wearing that mask of mirrors that makes him look really ugly. When he thinks of Mat (wondering where he is) he sees the colors swirl and sees Mat's face and is so surprised he stumbles. Mistress Harfor, who is leading him to Nynaeave, thinks he's drunk and chastises him.
Gawin van Waesberghe
2618. McArcher
Hi All,

long time lurker here. Read just about the entire thread and i've got two crazy theories

1 re: Hawkwings left hand => Wasn't the sword Rand got a one hander and suspected to be justice, the legendary sword of Hawkwing? Would fit in nicely if Hawkwing lost a hand somewhere along the way.

This could encourage Rand to start practising and trusting his skills as a swordsman again instead of relying on the OP only.

2: Re the swirls

What if this ties in with the three become one proficy? LTT-Rand-Moridin is out of the question on that one since we now know that LTT was never real?
What if somehow the tavereness /power needed to seal the DO away is so great that it could not be borne by one person, and the pattern divided that up amongst RPM.
Ties in with Min's vision regarding regarding Rand failing with out the other two / The darkness and the fireflies receding when Rand is alone , holding their own when Rand and Perrin are together as well

Sorry for the ramblin' just floating my 2 cp's
T C
2619. Freelancer
insectoid,

Ok, I was mistaken. The problem with the photos being linked on Dragonmount is a bandwidth issue. I don't know what that means to photobucket, but it is only happening to the photos they linked on the report for the signing. Perhaps they should have divided up the pics into multiple albums. I really don't know. While looking through the photos, however, I found you with your Dedicated pin showing:





And, here's Brandon being shown the pages of TORdot questions he was up against:

Ed Rafferty
2620. BigBoy57
Morning all, just caught up with the latest posts.

This thread is definitely getting out of hand.

I just had a flash from some old movie I must have seen - there's a fox hunt going on and the pack of hounds is momentarily flummoxed - they're poking into every corner of some farmer's yard - chooks are squawking, hunter's on horses are bellowing instructions at the hounds and footmen - the hounds themselves are barking wildly - whips are cracking - suddenly one of the hounds gets a sniff of something and they're off again as a solid pack with the rest of the hunt in hot pursuit. Calm and sanity return - must be an ad break!

I don't know why these thoughts occurred to me , honest!
Roger Powell
2621. forkroot
Freelancer@2575
forkroot@2572

Since when do you give someone permission to feel me? ::stare:: Oy, I'm losing it. Time for this week to end so I can have my brain back.
Took me a minute to figure out what you were talking about, then I roared with laughter!

thewindrose@2576
The book I just quoted from @2571 is not cannon, so not everthing is correct:(
You want "cannon", ask for Aludra. I think you meant "canon". (nothing mean-sprited intended here, I just got a chuckle from the typo)

Samadai@2577
Great summary! I'll chime in with one extra bit: When Brandon RAFO'd us on RobMRobM's questions, he pointed out that one of the prequels involves Tam's story. Since there is a possibility of that prequel being written, he wants to be especially careful when answering questions about Tam as he would not like to "spoil" Tam's story.

Oh, BTW, I told Brandon that RobMRobM was our chairman of the Department of Redundancy Department. :-)

One more thing to mention: Regarding the scenes in TGS, Brandon clarified that every scene had "Robert Jordan's touch". This meant that either RJ had contemplated the scene, or that the scene was an extrapolation of a character arc provided by RJ, or a logical consequence. So I took this to mean that BWS did not invent any new "filler" or story lines; however we can still argue about whether Hinderstap was a planned RJ scene or a BWS "extrapolation" (his word BTW). Hopefully we will know eventually, as I am sure that Brandon will ask Harriet's permissions (after AMoL) to do annotations like what he has has done for Mistborn.

Confidential to Freelancer and Wetlandernw: I'm an "oldster" like you both claim to be (Samadai's forthcoming pictures will prove it so). In the WoT fan world though, none of that matters. I felt totally comfortable discussing WoT theories, etc. with everyone at the signing, even though most were a generation younger.

lbrown@2604
We didn't get to the questions outside the bookstore until around 10:45PM. As I have mentioned before, BWS is an extremely considerate person. He was cognizant that the bookstore employees had put in a l-o-n-g day and he made sure to take care of business so that they could get the store closed. So perhaps it was best you didn't try to stay for all of that! Here's hoping that your boyfriend turns into a WoT fan some day.

Of course if he doesn't, that should be no big deal. I have lots of people, starting with my wife, who are hugely important to me and who just don't happen to be readers of epic fantasy. The key of course is that your SO recognizes that it's of interest to you and respects that. Even though my wife has zero interest in the WoT books, she took a great deal of pleasure hearing that I was able to make it to the signing and that I enjoyed it so much.

From what I have read on this site, many others are fortunate to have understanding spouses who are happy to see the pleasure that the WoT series gives us. What Freelancer's wife did was seriously awesome (just as one example.)

Tektonica@2609
would a Maple Bacon Bar be considered breakfast? What are they?????
When hot and fresh they should be considered breakfast, lunch, or dinner - depending on the current time. I took some home from Portland and my wife and I had them with breakfast this morning. Still good a day later, but no longer a slice of heaven.
Tricia Irish
2622. Tektonica
Bourke@2615

Thank you for the Gawyn recap. I obviously have been away from the early books FAR too long and don't remember enough, or much, it seems. I bow to the resident guru's of WOT fandom here, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.
(I got so excited in my search for Seanchan possible BIg Clues, that I was seeing them everywhere. It's the only excuse I can offer.) I feel so duh, I think i'll just go back to lurking.

I could blame my memory lapse(s) on the fact that I'm in the "oldster" camp too and the mind is going......

Big Boy@2620

LOL.

Samadai and Forkroot thanks again for the great recaps.
Thomas Keith
2623. insectoid
Wind @2576: Wait...how is the BBoBA not canon? RJ wrote it.

Free @2619: Yes, I did find those, but I had to hunt for them. :)

There is a live feed (TGS_SJ) of the signing in San Jose on USTREAM.TV. I see Harriet!
Linda Taglieri
2624. Linda
@Freelancer:

One of the NY Stormleaders is over 60. His report is on the 13th Depository.
Julian Augustus
2625. Alisonwonderland
Insectoid@2623:
Wait...how is the BBoBA not canon? RJ wrote it.

No, it was written by Teresa Patterson with input from RJ. But that is not the reason why it is not considered canon.

RJ wrote that the whole thing is told from the viewpoint of people writing of events long after they happened, and (I am paraphrasing here from memory) may contain rumours, misrepresentations and perhaps even fabrications. So he was warning us the fact that something appears in the BBoBA should not be taken as meaning it is 'gospel'.
Ron Garrison
2626. Man-0-Manetheran
Freelancer:
"Department of Redundancy Department"
Sounds like you are also a Firesign Theatre fan as well. I spent many wonderful times at The Old Same Place in Santa Barbara when I lived there.

EDIT! Forkroot! I got my old-timers mixed up. We old-timers tend to do that...
Thomas Keith
2627. insectoid
Feel Free: BAHAHAhahaha!!

Alisonwonderland @2625: Well, I guess you learn something new every day...

Man-O @2626: It was Forkroot not Freelancer. Anyway, my dad is also a FT fan, especially of "Waiting for the Electrician".
Wilson Grooms
2628. UnwiseOne
Ok, I'm not through reading the 2600+ comments but so far I haven't seen anyone raise this li'l point... Most of my views on the book in general have already been expressed by others, including Leigh; I'll skip echoing it and just go straight to my little nitpicking point.

One of the few places where I spotted something that I saw as a mistake (I didn't, for example, look Joline's Warders' horses in the mouth) or OoC behaviour/thinking was in Chapter 19, Tuon's POV. First it says "Suroth's betrayal, however... Chaos, indeed, when the leader of the Forerunners herself turned traitor." So far, so good. But then, further down the same page, in the description of the room, ten kneeling da'covale are mentioned. "Suroth was not among them." Of course she wasn't! Suroth Sabelle Meldarath is no more! Therefore, even if the da'covale formerly known as Suroth had been one of the 10 kneeling to Tuon's right in this chapter (which she isn't, since it says so), I think Tuon's thoughts would have been exactly that: the da'covale formerly known as Suroth. So I think it would have been better to mention that ex-Suroth was not among them...

I'm not saying I think the Seanchan themselves are so truly brainwashed by their system that they actually forget who a person was, once they are made da'covale. Suroth's showing off Amathera (Thera) to Morgase in one of the earlier books proves that. But I think that in their conscious minds they do follow the whole name change etc pretty strictly, whether a person moves up in the world or down. Look at Tuon's consistent treatment of Egeanin/Leilwin for example. If Egeanin could become Leilwin, then I think that as Suroth became da'covale, Suroth is no more, and they (incl. or especially Tuon) will always considerin that da'covale as any of the other property - of course they'll in reality recognize her and know very well who she was but they probably won't think of her by her former name, even in their own minds. That's my thought. Suroth is dead just as much as the appearance of Fortuona is "The Death of Tuon".

Oh and to clarify, what I started off by quoting: it makes perfect sense, however, for Tuon to think of Suroth as Suroth when she's thinking about events in the past - when Suroth was still Suroth.

Minuscule detail, I know!
Wilson Grooms
2629. Silvertip
By coincidence, the organization Tower Guard exists, and I've been associated with it in a couple of different capacities over the years. (The reference is to the bell tower on the campus of a certain University That Shall Remain Nameless).

https://www.msu.edu/~towergrd/aboutus.html

On a related note, anyone with a moment should try and console Master al'Thor. I believe he's having kind of a bad day. (Although my friends & neighbors aren't a lot better off).

S
Tess Laird
2630. thewindrose
insectoid - What Alisonwonderland said about how the book isn't canon - is true - that's why I am looking forward to the promised dictionary/guide to come out after the main books have been released.

Freelancer - I did fix my typo @2561 this morning (teehee).

MasterAlThor feel better soon, hopefully this thread is entertaining you...
Ed Rafferty
2631. BigBoy57
I've just worked out what I think is a looney theory - when I went to search through the posts here though, for "burned out", the one that sticks out is twicemarked@112's post.

He/she has only posted once but seems to have had my crazy idea much earlier though it's not quite clear.

Anyway here it is FBOFW - when Rand destroyed the CK by feeding the biggest ever channeled burst of Saidin back through it, he also burnt himself out. That's it for him - no more Saidin ever. No healing possible by Nyn or Flinn or whoever.

The only possibility of the DR channeling again is through his link through Moridin to the TP - uh-oh!

Could be the three required for Callandor will be Rand (TP), AS (Saidar) and Ashaman (Saidin) - I know I've see THAT speculation before but now there's a good reason for it.

It's almost crazy enough to be true!

Maybe I'd better take refuge in that bunker for a while.
Richard Fife
2632. R.Fife
*walks into the bunker*

What the...!? WHO MADE THIS MESS! *pulls out several a'dam and domination bands* OK my little Suffas, time to be good damane and clean up!

Also, BigBoy, considering the reaction we have seen to people being stilled, I highly doubt Rand would have had the ability to laugh after that. Anywho, the since the buffer-protection for the CK was in the access key, he probably was safe from the back-lash, just as Nyn wasn't burnt out from the female CK being over-drawn. Nice consideration, though. I'll still bet at Alivia, Rand, and Narishima (or maybe Logan) on the trifecta who use Callandor to reseal the prison.

Oh, also, if you are too scared to go look at the review of New Moon, my laptop tells a truth that is two fold (just have to add an L for the Twilight version):
Barry T
2633. blindillusion
I went to search one of my favorite sites to see if I could find a quote saying you have the ability to channel to be able to channel the True Power so I could give a response to BigBoy57@2631.

Couldn't find it, though I know I've read it somewhere. Just wanted to say, if Rand did burn himself out, which I doubt he did, he wouldn't be able to channel the True Power. Also, R.Fife answered in a different way.

Anyway, the point is I did find some interesting things I haven't seen discussed here. Some quotes from BWS during his signings:

Q: Will we see Nynaeve Heal the darkness that it in some of the male channelers before the Cleansing?

A: Nynaeve has said before, and believes, that everything can and should be able to be Healed, except for maybe death, and she certainly believes that it is possible. I’m not going to say whether or not it will happen.

Hmm. It's been talked about before, but this is interesting.
_______________________
Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channelers' strengths. On that list, only six people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much any time we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two One Power strength scales – an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.

Brandon was pretty certain that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana, who isn’t particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

So, by deductive reasoning, Nyn could have probably trounced Semi and could without doubt trounce Mesanna =)
_______________________
Question: (something regarding the bruises remaining on Min's neck, and if this was a typo)

Brandon: No, that is correct. Rand caused the bruises, so balefiring Semirhage would not make them go away. Balefire only removes paradoxes caused by the direct actions of the one who is balefired. And the bracelets remained after Rand balefired [Semirhage and Elza] because they weren't really part of Semirhage or Elza.

Claire: (comment regarding the thread on Dragonmount where some are arguing that by balefiring Graendal's palace, the compulsion disappeared since there'd never had been a palace in the first place, and others are arguing that it doesn't work that way, objects don't have threads).

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls. Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.

I added this one because it's something that has been discussed up there in the posts. Well, there's the answer for those who wondered if a building has presence in the Pattern.
_______________________
The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage. There will be consequences from Rand's True Power use.

The True Power is usually not able to be used without the Dark One's consent. Semirhage certainly thought that the Dark One intentionally betrayed her.

Rand did not use Compulsion, or any other weaves, on Tuon at their meeting. Tuon's refusal was mainly due to her innate sense of self. At this point, she firmly believes that she is the most important person in the world.

The above are just some random quotes I found interesting. Regarding the use of the True Power, I wonder if BWS gets flustered sometimes...?

Just some fuel for the fire, though some of these quotes might have been mentioned before. It's hard to remember.

I did find it cool that some of Freelancer's questions (to include mine =)) are mentioned on this site.

Anyway, Peace~~

the Quotes on this comment were taken from the "One Power, the True Power, Channeling, Objects of The Power" section of the above mentioned site.
Jay Dauro
2634. J.Dauro
forkroot @ 2621

Can I head up the Natural Guard, Porgie?

They still do good stuff.
T C
2635. Freelancer
Interesting. The first time I ever visited Theoryland.com, I was abused for my thoughts and I never went back (something about how Verin didn't lie in TGH, but that she could). Now they piggyback onto my report here. Well, if I were a girl I'd have to sniff, or fold my arms, or something. As Leigh once said, the noive.

I caught one very interesting tidbit from the Half Moon Bay appearance today, while trying to watch the live feed. When asked if Elayne was Ilyena reborn, Brandon had quite a bit to say, in spite of the direct answer being a RAFO. He said that Robert Jordan was very careful to not answer questions which characters in the plot wouldn't know the answer to. In this case, even though there's a glimmer of a speculation in Rand's mind about whether Ilyena has been reborn as someone he knows, there is nobody alive at the current state of the story who could know the answer. So it's a Read and Find Out, but you might not ever find out.

That was the only new bit of information that I caught, thought there may have been much more. Either my cable modem or my ISP was being very intermittent anytime a streaming video got going, and I gave up after about twenty minutes.

So, does anyone here know when the M:tG duel will begin, and is there any kind of feed for that?

Also, what is Brandon's avatar for his Twitter account? I cannot make heads nor tails of that image.
T C
2636. Freelancer
Jason sent two tweets a little while ago:

I am holding, at this very moment, a piece of paper, in @BrandonSandrson 's handwriting, that says the name of Asmodean's killer. No joke...


Now, Brandon assured us that only four people living know who killed Asmodean (with absolute certainty), so I found it hard to believe that he'd hand over the answer to Jason, especially just before they are supposed to engage in "combat". Then comes the second half:

... In Korean. And HEAVILY scribbled out. On both sides. He gave it to a San Jose Storm Leader Pics to come. -Jason
Wilson Grooms
2637. OldWoman
Brandon's avatar looks like the cover for his 3rd Mistborn book.
Barry T
2638. blindillusion
Hmm..Mr Sanderson's picture on his Twitter account? I couldn't say, but it might be the cover for The Hero of Ages.

That's the profile picture he uses for Facebook.

edit:Hm, oh well....
Tina Murrah
2639. Tina.Murrah
@ 2577 Samadai
Just got home from work (bartender) and I couldn't get out of there fast enough becuase I knew that you would have posted your Q & A from the signing by now.
Thanks so much for asking about the Island of Madmen and Shara. I'm actually quite pleased with a RAFO for now.

On a totally differently note: how are there so many poeple on this thread from Portland? Where are all the NJ people?
Wilson Grooms
2640. StoneDogAiel
I would just like to give a shout out to forkroot and samadai, the two wonderful gentlemen I met at the Portland signing. It felt good to talk about why's and where's and how's of the series with fellow fans!
T C
2641. Freelancer
Welcome aboard, StoneDogAiel. forkroot is one of the more prolific commenters among those following Leigh Butler's reread. Hopefully she'll be returning to those duties soon, as I believe the Pattern will unravel if this thread hits 3,000.
Barry T
2642. blindillusion
Well, just got done watching Brandon beat up on EVERYONE in M:TG.

He said I was wasting his time for making a snide comment about the show Lost. How awesome is that.

And he remembered Freelancer. I thought that was pretty damn cool.
j p
2643. sps49
@ all-

I planned to have an update from the Clayton (CA) signing or at least the San Jose one, but girlfriend issues made me late for Clayton and breaking up cost me the fun in San Jose.

I really wanted to be at Clayton Books; it is small and out-of-the-way so I figured questions would be easier. I don't know how it went, but the store had maybe thirty GS books on a cart. I did support my "local" independent by getting a Guadalcanal book for myself and two for my gf's little girl.

Did anyone make the Clayton or San Jose events?

forkroot @2621 re: SOs- Words to live by.
Lindy Brown
2644. lbrown
@2621. forkroot
Here's hoping that your boyfriend turns into a WoT fan some day.


Yeah! He's not a reader, though, and not into Sci-Fi/Fantasy. But he did allow me to read to him some parts from tGS. Oh, well. I got my brother, mother and step-father reading WOT, though. They are all still reading books 2-3, so it will be awhile till I can discuss anything with them.

2633. blindillusion
There are two One Power strength scales – an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list.


Hmm. So what does that mean, I wonder? Do the two lists use different criteria to judge strenghth in the OP?


2642. blindillusion
He said I was wasting his time for making a snide comment about the show Lost. How awesome is that.


I love Lost! Can't wait till I comes back in January. I've had WOT to keep me going during the long break from May to now, but I don't know what's going to keep me going for the next 2 months. I guess the holidays and seeing family.
T C
2645. Freelancer
lbrown@2644

The "old" Saidar Strength Rankings topped out with Nynaeve. It didn't take many female channelers into account for a few possible reasons:

1. They hadn't been introduced yet (Talaan, Alivia, Sharina, Someryn, etc.)

2. Their strength hadn't been referenced in a way to compare with others of known position on the old scale (Lanfear, Semirhage, Mesaana)

We did know that Moghedien and Nynaeve were comparable from Tanchico.

Prior to TGS, there were six channelers identified as stronger than Nynaeve, and two as on the same rank. The stronger:

Lanfear (Cyndane is still stronger, but not by as much)
Alivia
Graendal (Dead?)
Mesaana
Semirhage (Dead)
Sharina

If Graendal is truly dead (she is), then only four remain with greater strength than Nynaeve.

On the male side much less is known. Rand is the strongest, Logain and Taim are both not far behind. Narishma is very strong as well.

If I was selecting three channelers (for the Light) for a circle on the basis of strength alone, it would be Rand/Logain/Alivia.
Barry T
2646. blindillusion
lbrown@2644 RE: Lists

~I belive the 'old' list would be pre~Alivia ~Sharina ~Talaan ~Someryn. Back in the good ole days when only a few of the Female Forsaken were stronger than Nynaeve.

The 'new' list would of been created to include them.

And isn't it neat that each of the nationalities has a powerful channler.

Nynaeve/Sharina ~ Westlands (Hmm, they get two?)
Alivia ~ Seanchan
Talaan~ Atha'an Miere
Someryn ~ Aiel

~~And going by what Mr Sanderson said, there is now only one Female Forsaken more Powerful than this group of Lighters: Lanfear/Cyndane

Mesanna and Moghedien are weaker than this New Crowd.

Dun!Dun!Dun!!! Perhaps the Shadow should watch out...

Except:
~Sharina is a Novice.
~~Alivia is apparently set to help Rand die in some way and only knows how to be a weapon.
~~~Someryn hasn't been seen since CoT and is either on her way back to the Aiel Waste or has an a'dam around her neck.
~~~~Talaan seems to of ran away?

edit: Opps, looks like Freelancer beat me to the punch, but what else is new.

Except Free@2645, Mr Sanderson is pretty certain Nynaeve is stronger than Mesanna. He is also pretty sure Nynaeve was stronger than Semirhage, though they were close.

Not conclusive evidence by any means, but the 13thD might need to change its list....
Thomas Keith
2647. insectoid
Wind @2630 re: The Encyclopedia: And I will buy it when it comes out. Until then, I'm totally dependant on the Encyclopaedia-WoT, WoTFAQ, etc., etc.--and you folks.

R.Fife @2632 re: the mess: Sorry...those cookies and cinnamon rolls and Maple Bacon Bars and stuff go a looonnnng way. ;)

Free @2636: Oh, that is too funny! BAHAHAha...

Free @2641: I predicted it, remember? You said 2500 and I said 3000. Which leaves--::counts::--353 to go. But it depends on whether Leigh posts on Monday. Could be chancy.

EDIT: This was my 36th comment on this one thread. Scary.
Wilson Grooms
2648. KZK
blocksmith@1801 Doh. Ok, delete Chapter 8 Romanda Errata. IIRC Jordan may have had Leane refer to Palace Guards in a previous volume, (I think there was some thread about it on rawsfrj). But that's just a minor quibble.


Freelancer@1805 On the Heat trick, I could swear Jordan has had it both ways at different times for different characters, but oh well.


First Selector@1809 It's clear in that scene that Egwene thinks all of the spies are Grey. Elaida know who all of the spies are, and they are not all Grey. Beonin warned all the spies, who again, are not Grey.


forkroot@1821 While Balefire effects on objects like clothes seems inconsistent, I think the best way to deal with that problem it to think of the pattern as being more 3dimentional, and for matter to have sub-threads, being that the wheel/pattern is everything in the randland universe. In fact when Rand thinks that the weird room shiftings are the dark ones loosening of the pattern, it's clear that objects have threads. Also the bore was created at a thinness in the pattern, again implying that the pattern was everything including matter. In either event Souls are unaffected by Balefire, and will always be reborn (write this every time Balefire is discussed, because the misbelief that Balefire destroys Souls is widespread).

-----

Known / Suspected Errata:

Other posters have picked up some unusual Idiom that is very out of place in the WoT: "Do the Math", "Saidared", "politicking", "homicidal", "compulsed", "Bloody Ashes", Etc.

Chapter 1: The Idiom 'Pawn' is used by Rand. Randland doesn't seem to have chess or chess idioms, Pawn is not used in any other WoT book except once to sell something (as in Pawn shop). See http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=pawn


Chapter 2 Egwene thinks all the SAS spies were gray. It's clear in that scene that Egwene thinks all of the spies are Grey. Elaida know who all of the spies are, and they are not all Grey. Beonin warned all the spies, who again, are not Grey.

Chapter 5 It's cute how Cads doesn't remove the air weave from Semi's ears to let Merise think she is still questioning her, but wouldn't Merise notice the weave of air hadn't been dissipated?

Chapter 6 Turan says "save face" what he probably should have said was that she would break him to prevent having her eyes lowed for a period of time.

Chapter 6 Leane says "Palace Guards", which it seems to me should actually be "Tower Guards", as I don't think of the WT as a palace nor reason for Elaida's "palace" to have guards visiting Leane.

Chapter 8 Siuan say "one of the two others" which should be "three" The next phrase "The other" should also be changed to "Another".

Chapter 8+ Starting in chapter 8 "Great Captain" is replaced by "general" in most cases where it should not have been. Jordan only used general in a few particular instances: "Captain General" of Queens guards, "Banner General" of Seanchan forces, Etc. See http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=general

Chapter 12: Missing word: Had. "It was the first time Egwene [had] been ordered to attend one of them."

Chapter 12: Shienar Sword. "Shienarian" would be more correct.

Chapter 13: Gawyn refers to Egwene as a "Pawn".

Chapter 19: Tuon thinks about Suroth: "The deathwatch guard saw to her, at least until her hair grew out." Which is is written in the past tense like this had already happened, yet a few paragraphs earlier, we learn that this is the day after Tuon has returned / Made Suroth Da'Covale.

Chapter 19: Galgan claims the WT are Rand's "Pawns".

Chapter 20: Typo page 314: "Cairhien in fashion" should be Cairhienin unless it was meant as the "in fashion" in Cairhien, which is very awkward.

Chapter 20: Joline's Math is off per Warder calculations. Others have written of this.

---
I've only gotten through chapter 20, and post 1900 in my slow re-read. So my observations re:errata will end here, but I'm sure I and others will notice some more.
---

---
Chapter 27-8: Missing Redarms, however, Sanderson says RAFO.

---
Chapter 37: Sulin is in rands camp here, but in actuality she is with Perrin's group. Others have written of this.

---
Chapter 41: Possible error with how rings and angreal work in tower battle. Others have written of this.

---
Chapter 50: Rand hold his head in his Hands (plural).

-----
Someone asked about new chapter Icons, Unless I'm mistaken the Fish in Chapter 18 (apparently Siuan's Icon) is a new one we haven't seen before.

Now if I were Egwene I'd have the new river chains, when they are remade, be made individually out of Cuendillar (remembering to keep the links individually separated with air flows when they are turned. Also if Egwene wanted to she could have a very thin plating of Cuendillar made around the outside of the tower (they would have to paint it, to keep it 'white'), which would make the tower impervious to outside attack (and give it vastly greater structural integrity, although there might be issues with insulation).


What does the MOA acronym mean? Never seen it before.
Michael Ikeda
2649. mikeda
R. Fife@2632

Wait a second. Isn't Bela the Creator?
Wilson Grooms
2651. Seamus1602
KZK@2648

Egwene does not think all the SAS spies are Gray.

She says, "Beonin said she'd warned the Gray sisters that Elaida knew they were spies."

In KoD, when Egwene confronts Beonin:

"'I have already warned Meidani and Jennet.' [said Beonin] They were the two Grays among the ferrets. [thought Egwene]"

In short, Egwene's tGS comment meant that she was surprised that Meidani was still in the WT, given that Beonin had warned the 2 Gray spies (including Meidani).
Wilson Grooms
2652. Seamus1602
KZK@2648 and others re: angreal usage while linked

I've seen some post further up (circa 1000) talking about how Vora's sa'angreal was used by Egwene to channel while linked (as opposed to channeling through the angreal, and then linking, like they did with turtle brooch angreal and the gold bracelet with the Bowl of the Winds).

I've always thought that the linked power of a circle could use a sa'angreal because that is exactly how it is used when Healing Mat in tDR. The AS link, and then Siuan draws through Vora's sa'angreal. Further, the Bowl of the Winds proves that a ter'angreal can be used by a circle. I see no evidence in the books that a circle cannot draw power through an *angreal.
Birgit
2653. birgit
Someone asked about new chapter Icons, Unless I'm mistaken the Fish in Chapter 18 (apparently Siuan's Icon) is a new one we haven't seen before.

Siuan's fish already appeared in New Spring.
Bill Reamy
2654. BillinHI
KZK @2648: Birgit beat me on Siuan's Fish icon in New Spring, but I believe the adjectival form of Shienar is Shienaran.

I know, a tiny nit, but I haven't posted for a while.
Wilson Grooms
2655. .benja
Book 12: Storm Leaders.

Book 13: Snakes and Foxes.

Book 14: The Hand of the Light.

[[someday I'm going to say something productive, I swear I will]]
Lindy Brown
2656. lbrown
Thanks to
2645. Freelancer
2646. blindillusion

for your explanations. So the new list is only a revision of the old list.

I find it amazing that even though Lanfear's strenghth is diminished significantly since she was reborn, she is still stronger than everyone else (the women channelers). So how strong was she to begin with? WOW!
Ron Garrison
2657. Man-0-Manetheran
I like those names .benja! I think that maybe with Leigh's help we might have more presence at future signings.
Barry T
2658. blindillusion
lbrown@2656:

Lanfear in a nutshell courtesy of the 13thD.

Level 21

The strongest known female channeller is Lanfear:


Some said she had been the next most powerful of the Forsaken next to Ishamael

- The Great Hunt, Blood Calls Blood (Echoed in the Glossary)

No one knows the strength of the Forsaken, except that Ishamael and Lanfear were the strongest

- The Dragon Reborn, The Hammer

She [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal.

- Winter’s Heart, With the Choedan Kal


Cyndane was correct; Alivia did have an angreal. Moiraine has read up on the Forsaken, including from Vandene’s and Adeleas’ considerable library. Cyndane/Lanfear has all the knowledge of the Age of Legends when there were millions of channellers. Her comments that no woman could be stronger than she was when she was Lanfear make it certain that she is on the top level.
T C
2659. Freelancer
KZK@2648

The first mention I can find anywhere about the trick of ignoring heat or cold is from Reflection, Chapter 3 of TSR, describing Moiraine:
She must have run to come so fast, but she was calm as a frozen lake now. It took a great deal to ruffle Moiraine's serenity. Her blue silk gown had a high lace neck and sleeves slashed with darker velvet, but the heat and humidity did not appear to touch her. A small blue stone, suspended on her forehead from a fine golden chain in her dark hair, flashed in the light, emphasizing the absence of the slightest sheen of sweat.


I can find no reference to someone ignoring temperature using the trick, and yet sweating. As I said, the behavior might be questionable, but it is presented with consistency throughout the story. Also, I excluded references in New Spring since they could count as retconning if there had been a problem.

Regarding use of the word pawn, you make a presumption that the word, and its usage, originates with the game of chess. King, queen, knight, bishop, rook, pawn. Why would one piece name of the bunch be an invention brand new with the game? No, pawn is derived from peon, someone who is considered little more than a tool, or a puppet, to be used at their master's whim. Chess uses the name because a word fitting the description of that piece's function already existed.

RE: Sulin; not an error, per direct answer from Brandon to me, see comments @2092.

RE: Rand and references to hands; this is dealt with in the Prologue, where in Rand's POV he clasps his hands behind his back, then reflectively notes that he still thinks of himself as having hands. Not an error, since we're in a Rand POV on Dragonmount.


mikeda@2650 & KZK

Around here, we tend to use MOA to mean Made of Awesome.


RE: Balefire, and inorganic matter having threads. Brandon answered this one straight up, that all objects have threads. Now, some have run with this to support a theory for keeping Graendal alive by saying that with her compound being balefired, that removed Ramshalan's Compulsion, because it was woven on him there. The logic is that if the place where something happened to someone disappeared, even if the person who did it to him is still alive, the effects would be erased. I cannot agree. The threads of the building structure had no part in Ramshalan being Compelled, their removal has no bearing on his condition. To say that since he could no longer have gone into the building to get Compelled means it has to have not happened is, I admit, clever semantic gymnastics, but it doesn't stand up. Besides, it's moot, since Graendal has joined the choir invisible.
Wilson Grooms
2660. alreadymadwithsaidarstats
Agreed. Lanfear's statement that no one could be stronger was most likely based on statistical data taken during the AoL when the channeling ability was more widely documented.
Rob Munnelly
2661. RobMRobM
Fork at 2621. ROFLMAO! (I would have chosen RobM but it was already taken by someone.) Rob
Wilson Grooms
2662. StoneDogAiel
Regarding Lanfear's Strength in the OP:

While it certainly seems as if Lanfear would be considered an expert on the subject, keep in mind that there are things discovered in THIS age that weren't thought impossible in the AoL. Also, due to the well documented arrogance of the Forsaken, Lanfear could just be full of herself.

Alivia could very well be stronger, or as strong as Lanfear was. Obviously, the angreal boosted her PAST that level, but there is no way of knowing just how much that angreal added.

Alivia + Angreal > Lanfear

Without knowing the value of the angreal, there is no way of knowing who is stronger in and of themselves.

Just saying.
Wilson Grooms
2663. alreadymadwithchannelstat
StoneDogAiel @2662
You are correct in taking Lanfear's arrogance into account. However the things you mentioned that were discovered in this age but thought impossible in the AoL are more in the way of Skills and Weaves. Other ways of doing things. I see no reason to suspect that the probabilities and limits involved in having the ability to channel is altered as well.
john massey
2664. subwoofer
Hi all! :)

Sorry I have not been my usual prolific self, but renovating my new digs and dressing half a buck seem to be sucking up any spare time I have. I see Free has been picking up my slack so Yay!

To me the list of ranking for female channeling strength is similar to that of the top Blade masters. A mouse could starve on the difference. I get the impression that it depends on who is wearing what bobble and who is caught unawares. Knowledge of weaves also makes up for a lack of juice. AlreadymadwhenBerelainsshoulderstrapfell was right on that account. There is much time spent sneering and deriding current day channelers for their ignorance of Weaves lost.

I think Ny, worked up in full braid-tugging righteousness can hold her own. Mind you I do remember Ny even reflect on Alivia. As far as Lanfear, she did show a lot of... oomph, but she also had an angreal of some sort that she was using to whoop Rand and Co.- just before she got tossed through the doorway. Now it seems that her new incarnation is not as it should be. It strikes me that the D.O. has his own cracked sense of humor.

Speaking of such, are their any Dreamers... or for that matter, odds makers amongst us who will predict Leigh coming back, much like Moiraine the White, in our darkest hour?

Edited because I almost shinobied this post by leaving an italics open...

Woof™.
Sam Mickel
2665. Samadai
Hey everyone,
I uploaded the pictures to my profile and they are open for everyone to look at.
The first one is the Powells book store worker introducing Brandon.
A couple of Brandon.
An Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah
Moiraine?
myself and Brandon.
Me showing Brandon the list of questions.
Brandon signing
Brandon and storm leaders
myself, Brandon, and Forkroot.

edit for. just click on my name and scroll down to my pictures. click them and watch slide show
Tricia Irish
2666. Tektonica
Question....

If one of us finds some good info on the missed "big clue", where should we post this info after Leigh comes back to us and starts the rereads?

Will this post still be operational? (If it doesn't crash because of it's own weight!)

Just asking....
Sam Mickel
2667. Samadai


Samadai, Brandon and Forkroot (from left to right)
Alice A
2668. Wetlandernw
KSK@2648 Re: cuendillar sheathing on the WT: No painting required. They just have to find a way to put an iron plating on the stone; then when they change the iron to cuendillar it turns white.

Regarding your "list of errata" I must note that some of your list is really personal preference. While I understand that many people are bothered by the idiom, it's not "error". It's just the difference in language used by a different storyteller. A case could possibly be made for characters using different words than they have used before, but I really think that most of it falls in the category of "if it didn't bother Harriet enough to change it the first time, it won't be changed." I don't think you're going to see them deciding to take "do the math" out of future editions just because some of the readers don't like it.
On the other hand, there are some actual errata.
-Chapter 8 page 146, paragraphs 2 and 4 need to be corrected for number consistency.
-Chapter 12 page 196, 2nd full paragraph, 2nd sentence should read "...Egwene had been ordered..."

And so on. Those are the kind of things that they really do want to correct, and the best way to help with that is to send the specifics to them; you can bet they'll be corrected in the next printing.

BTW, if Brandon actually wrote "compulsed" please tell me exactly where. That IS errata, since RJ used the term "Compelled"; it needs to be corrected. (It is also a pet peeve of mine, since "compulse" isn't a word. I can't believe Brandon would do that!)

I would suggest that if you really care, go through your list and take out the things that have been addressed at Q&A (Sulin, Joline's warders, the Redarms, etc.) This will require some research on your part, although this group does a pretty fair job of kicking your shins if you miss those, especially if you ask for input. Also take out all the "idiom irritants" as noted above; Brandon told us he wouldn't write like RJ, and we just need to suck it up and get over it. When you have a clean list of actual errors, with as much detail as you can give them so they don't have to read an entire chapter just to find one missing word, send it in. They will appreciate it. Off the top of my head, I don't know exactly who you send it to, but somewhere in Tor-land there's got to be a way to get the info to them. If nothing else, email Brandon via his website and ask him where to send it.
T C
2669. Freelancer
You know, sometimes we can take a piece of information at face value. Lanfear is crazy about certain things, but she isn't stupid, nor is she self-deluded, other than towards Lews Therin. So her internal POV about Alivia's strength is honest, and informed by hundreds of years of experience, including specific research about the Power.

None of the other female forsaken ever have an internal thought about being the strongest channeler, because they all understand that it's Lanfear.

Whether or not the rankings at the 13thD are valid, Lanfear sits alone atop it.


subwoofer@2664

Never in this life would I be capable of handling your slack. I couldn't match your style, and trying would just embarass myself.

Yip™. (See what I mean?)


Samadai@2665

Good job with the pics. I probably should have done likewise. As I look at the shots of you talking with Brandon, I offer a small thanks to the folks who run the store in San Diego. They have this nice little kidney shaped table at snack-bar level, with Brandon sitting on a stool. It puts him much closer to eye level, so folks aren't talking to the top of his head while he's signing books. Brandon should make that a demand for any place that wants him on his next tour.


Hey forkroot, it's great that you were able to be there while on company money, can't ask for better than that.
Henry Loose
2670. schrodinger
hmmmm... this will be my 63rd or 64th post (I lost count somewhere along the way)... maybe half of those were productive, the other half were like this one (devoted to my late night ramblings/impulses). More brownies are on the way to the bunker (turns out that the cinnamon rolls didn't last as long as usual... cinnamony deliciousness wrapped in doughy goodness does go fast) ;-).

mmmm... chocolaty goodness :-P

on a side note: some written material is good when it gets to a length that takes days to read... I can name one off the top of my head ;-)... this post is not one of them. A new post is needed (my first clue came when it took me 5 minutes to load this page, using my high speed internet).
T C
2671. Freelancer
@All

Just as the live feed from the Magic thrashing which Brandon delivered last night was ending, he was saying that he plans to hold a live chat open interview of some kind in the near future. The feed cut in the middle of what he was saying, but he had just made a comment to the folks watching and chatting on Ustream about how he has been answering some of our questions (and doggone if he didn't notice my nick and ask if it was the guy from San Diego on Tor.com). Anyway, keep your eyes peeled, he might be answering more of our questions soon. Woohoo!


Ahh, Samadai, the text labels for your pics are out of sequence by one. Unless you think you're Moiraine, and some girl in a Storm Leader's shirt is you.


schrodinger@2670

I'll bet it isn't your connection, but your browser. Chrome loads in about 1/4 the time of Exploder, and it never takes more than about 20 seconds to load this monster.
M. Kristall
2672. The Ninth Horse
I agree that the load time on this page is absurd. Why can't there be separate pages? Maybe a web forum would be better.

(By the way, I just measured my load time with a stopwatch and came up with 29 seconds, which is also download time (measured with `time wget 'http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=58170' -O /dev/null`; average rate was 227KB/s, which is nowhere near the ceiling here). And yes, I have nothing better to do right now.)
Barry T
2673. blindillusion
pokes head into the bunker after a nice Sunday out with the family...

looks around...

mutters to self,
I'm not cleaning up this mess...

shuts door and walks away....
Thomas Keith
2674. insectoid
Samadai @2665: Nice pictures! Although as Free pointed out they are slightly mislabeled. Where'd they get their green shawl??

Free @2671: Haven't ever tried Chrome before, so I wouldn't know if that'd be better than Explorer.

The Ninth Horse @2672: I agree...the page should be split. Oddly enough, though my load time (measured with a stopwatch) is about 25 seconds in Internet Explorer, it took wget on Cygwin 52 seconds to connect and download the page--at 99KB/s. Hmm.

No, I have nothing better to do either. Except play Unreal. :)
Alice A
2675. Wetlandernw
Hmmm. We may need a cuendillar seal on the door of the bunker if it gets any riper...
Barry T
2676. blindillusion
You know, if Leigh posts a new re-read tomorrow ~and I hope she does...twitch...~, it's going to be interesting trying to discuss aCoS without mentioning what happens in tGS.

I just read through the section in the Prologue where Elaida is thinking about her new palace. I couldn't help but wonder...if she'd lived out the rest of her life as Amyrlin...would she of wanted to be buried in it and have it sealed off as her tomb?

I mean, would someone that narcissistic ever allow someone else to reside in her palace?

Guess we'll never know.... Hope there's a scene in ToM where we see Egwene tearing the damn thing down.

Speaking of Tar Valon, I wonder if the only other way to destroy cuendillar besides using the True Power is to have the person who created it reverse the weave? Might make it easier for Egwene to open the harbor.
Ed Rafferty
2677. BigBoy57
How does that old saying go?

"There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics".

Something like that any way - I guess 2,000 year old statistics don't make it any less true. Maybe Cyndane will be in for a shock or two come TG.

My suggestion - one of you "talented" persons launch a blast of balefire into the bunker - should clean up fine!
Henry Loose
2678. schrodinger
clean up fine? might destroy the bunker!

...

maybe an extremely refined stream of it

...

nonono... no balefire, only on forsaken; the pattern is too stressed already, what with the enormity of this thread.

maybe weaves of air to clean out the junk and water and earth to scrub the place?

...

or we could relocate. I hear R.Fife has a new bunker... perhaps we could follow to this new location?
T C
2679. Freelancer
Samadai@2667

The pic doesn't show. If you tried to link it from your TOR profile photo album, that won't work. You need a web storage that provides a url for each photo file. imageshack didn't work for me, I've been pleased so far with photobucket, but I know many folks use picasaweb (now a Google product).


insectoid,

Google Chrome is the fastest loading browser I've ever seen. And in repeated tests, it loads this thread at least 7 seconds faster than Explorer. I have a good connection most of the time, so that means around 12 seconds against 19.


schrodinger@2678

Some day I'm going to get brave enough to visit that bunker. Ever since the first mention of Elaida in it, I've stayed clear. So no fair blaming the mess on me. However, I think that Air, Water, and Earth is just going to end up making dried mud. I suggest temporarily removing the furniture and such, then using Air and Fire to turn all the debris to ash and blow it outside. Faster and more sanitary.
Bouke de Boer
2680. Bouke
Can't we get Elaida to clean up? After all, she's in an a'dam... Or maybe just Compel her a little bit.

That's not evil, is it? Or is it? Naw...
Barry T
2681. blindillusion
Well, while I was walking away from the bunker I did see Narg walking towards it with a bucket in hand and a mop slung over his shoulder. He was muttering about not doing windows...which I wondered at, since it's a bunker....

I thought it was a little crazy to hire him, but hey, it's not my bunker. I just visit from time to time.
Maiane Bakroeva
2682. Isilel
Blindillusion @2676:

it's going to be interesting trying to discuss aCoS without mentioning what happens in tGS.

Why ever should we do that? It would be awful. One of the big draws of the re-read is discussion of the influence of early scenes on what comes much later or our shifting perception of them. And given how TGS changes a lot of this... any attempt to skirt the new info will just make the re-read a hollow shell.

I mean, almost a month has passed since TGS appeared - this is a more than generous period of spoiler grace.

Personally, I kind of want an index of all re-read chapters where Verin appeared previously, for some fresh speculation.
Jay Dauro
2683. J.Dauro
But wait, the bunker is cuendillar, all balefire will do is remove the contents. Presto, clean bunker.

Of course we'll need new furniture, but that's a small price to pay. I'll make sure there are no leftover cookies first though.
Barry T
2684. blindillusion
Isilel@2682

I agree that a month is a long enough grace period for people to of read the novel. But there are those that are waiting and those who haven't finished the novel yet.

It's up to Leigh on this one. Hope we find out today.
Wilson Grooms
2685. alreadymadwithbunker
Freelancer @2679
When did Elaida get into the bunker? Last I heard of her was in the sweat tent. Not a lot of people went in there with her.
Leslie Annis
2686. Lannis
Hey guys, as for Leigh's new post, I wouldn't expect anything today... she mentioned a month off, so I'm assuming that we won't see anything until Friday at the earliest... though my money's on Monday.

Good gawd, has it almost been a month?!

Hmm... I think we can persuade Elaida to clean up the bunker... my only issue is that she's still funky from using the bunker as a sweat tent months ago! If her personal hygiene is that bad, can we really trust her to do a good job on cleaning the place?! :|

Narg, on the other hand, has already exhibited signs of being an enlightened soul... human speech and all that...

Erm... that said, we might want to warn Narg that we'll be using balefire on the bunker... I have to admit that it sounds a decent way to get rid of those crumbs... though we'll never reclaim any lost change in the recliners...

I think we could get Elaida to take the empties to the liquor store for a refund... she likes to think she's enterprising...

(My page load time's approximately 8s... one-one thousand, two-one thousands... Firefox. Macbook.)
Barry T
2687. blindillusion
Hmm, a month, eh? Well.... Yeah, that makes sense. Though sometimes it seems like it has been a month since tGS was published.

And we're still going to balefire the bunker? I can see warning Narg...Bela would be pissed if he got nixed....

The question, though...do we let Elaida know? Sure, it'd be the right thing to do. But she might thank us.... I mean, who could go any amount of time being called "Suffa" without going completely bugshit?

Yep, someone go get the nearest Asha'man. Let's get Narg out of there. Send Elaida to clean that really nasty spot over in the far corner....

man, work is dull today. dreary overcast sky. blah =(

edit:

"SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES: NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN THE STAIRS."

::Looks at::
Katerine!!!
Gawyn
Beonin
Berelain
Faile
Perrin
Fain
Elaida “Suffa”
Elayne
Eyndel
john massey
2688. subwoofer
Sooooo........

Leigh posts within minutes of the book hitting the newsstands and now we are all blowing in the breeze out here. I dunno, there are only so many things I can kill before having to focus my attention on other er... things. Some of the damage was my fault. Gnawing on the furniture. Sorry, give the dog a bone for pity's sake. When a dog gets bored, things happen.

As for Elaida- scorched earth policy here folks. Bunker can be a kiln for a day. Maybe we can practice making angreal.

I can do the jerky thing in a smoker outside. Help clear my sinuses from the "odor". Now in search of some chocolate chunk...

Woof™.
Matthew Smith
2689. blocksmith
Blindillusion@2687

"SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES: NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN THE STAIRS."

That is GREAT!!! I can't wait to slip that one into a conversation.

And as we approach comment #2700....

Leigh, Leigh, where for art thou, Leigh?
Wilson Grooms
2691. alreadymadwithbugsht
blindillusion @2687
I mean, who could go any amount of time being called "Suffa" without going completely bugshit?

I thought she was already bugshit before she was renamed Suffa.
Barry T
2692. blindillusion
Rob@2690. Yep. Him.

AMW@2691. I'd say she was a crazy, narcissistic bitch. But bugshit? Not really. Now she's going to be petting rocks and insisting she eat her food out of a grolm's skull because it helps defend against bollywholly's.
Leslie Annis
2693. Lannis
Hmm... Eyndel... maybe we should get him to clean the bunker?

Nah... I second the motion of calling an Asha'man... balefire it is! All in favour?

(We might want it clean before Leigh's new post goes up...)
Sam Mickel
2694. Samadai
Freelancer,
I was trying to post them using Flickr, but it was a no go. I tried to edit it but it would not allow me to remove the comment.
Everyone who looks at my profile pics of the book signing the picture titles are all of by one(thanks Free and Insectoid).
Henry Loose
2695. schrodinger
Freelancer@2679

when I said earth I meant minerals and chemicals (such as in cleaning solutions)...

blocksmith@2689

I believe that phrase means "why are you" rather than "where are you"... In the original shakespeare it was used in the sense of "Why are you Romeo (why are you a montague)".

so why is she Leigh?
Leigh Butler
2696. leighdb
Hey guys,

Sorry for the extended absence, but real life happened, a lot. Let's just say "Crazytown" doesn't even begin to cover it...

Anyway, an update on the update situation: There will be no Re-read post today, or this week, because it is Thanksgiving week, and we have six people and two dogs in for the holiday, and I am in Crazytown, and it just so ain't happening.

So. Tentative plans are for the Re-read to resume in December. I'll let you guys know a specific date when I have one.

Thanks for sticking with it, guys, and thanks for your patience. I really do appreciate it.
Rob Munnelly
2697. RobMRobM
@2696. 4,000 here we come....

@2695. Exactly correct. A Leigh by any other name would smell as sweet....

@2692. I'll bite. I have no memory of Eyendel and my work computer blocks efforts to get to the Encyclopedia WoT. Please tell me who he/she is and why he/she deserves to be on your list.

Rob
Henry Loose
2698. schrodinger
hmmm... 3000 posts here we come.

might even get to 3500.

watch this week fly by.
Henry Loose
2700. schrodinger
@Rob

you think we can break 4000 (and quite possibly the internet?) ;-)

If it is a week, I'll say 700 more posts (it is a holiday and people will be spending time with their families). If it is later in december, then I will agree with your 4000 assessment.

edit: wooo 2700!
Barry T
2701. blindillusion
Eyndel
A soldier in the Band of the Red Hand.

Physical Description ~ Nil
Chronology ~ Once
* Captain Mandevwin orders Connl, Admar, Dongal, Eyndel and Madwin to get their men in position for the attack on the Seanchan army. (KoD,Ch27)


That would be Eyndel.

Reason: Well, because I knew people would look at his name and say, "Huh, who's he?"

And, well, I was just scrolling through the Encyclopaedia Wot looking for more names and his jumped out at me...so I added him.

~blindillusion...throwing obsure characters at ya for shits and gigs......as if there weren't enough characters to KTO....

edit: Egads, how could I forget Cadsuane. Once she gets to the bottom of the stairs I'm going to run down them, help her back up to the top and push her again.
Rob Munnelly
2702. RobMRobM
@2700. Yes, but it depends on content - we need some good topics to discuss that go beyond merely rehashing what has been said over comments to date.

For example, I'd like predictions of
- what Avi will do when she comes back from Rhudien.
- where Moggy and Cyndane will show up.
- what Merlille and Talaan have been up to after leaving Camelyn in KoD.
- whether Liandrin will be back on the loose after Suroth's fall.
- whether Galad will have to spank Berelain for being a very naughty girl....(Did I say that out loud?)

R
Barry T
2703. blindillusion
Rob@2699

Well, I put the quote in there in the hopes that others would create lists of who should make like a slinky and...slink? Just something to keep everyone amused.
Roger Powell
2704. forkroot
Freelancer@2669
Hey forkroot, it's great that you were able to be there while on company money, can't ask for better than that.
Well, the company giveth and the company taketh away. I was planning to go to the Scottsdale signing a few days earlier, but the business trip prevented it. Fortuona smiled on me though, and the Portland signing made up for that.

BigBoy@2677
How does that old saying go?

"There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics".
I prefer my version, which any skier will testify to: There are lies, damned lies, and snow reports.

One more amusing note from Portland: As Samadai, myself, and several others were standing to the side chatting, a young man in a Storm Leaders T-shirt came up and wanted to challenge us with "trivia". He had a couple of questions that were way too easy for that crowd (e.g. who was the Tairen lord that the Gholam offed in Ebou Dar?). We answered all of his questions instantly and started asking him some tougher stuff. Poor kid beat a hasty retreat and I called after him as he fled: "You picked the wrong crowd kid!". I hope we didn't scar him for life.

RobmRobM@2702
For example, I'd like predictions of
- what Avi will do when she comes back from Rhudien.
I have a pretty good idea what she's going to do with Rand, but it would not be appropriate for a family-friendly website ;-)
Sam Mickel
2705. Samadai
Guaire was tired of running. It had all started when he had lost control of his temper.

He had always been a small young man and been beaten on by the boys of his village, Maseen, Which was deep inside Darmovan. He had gone to the village market to trade some of his farms tabac for the wool that his mom liked to spin. The village boys had jumped him as soon as he had walked into the village. He had gotten one good shot on the village bully, Jaim, befroe they swarmed him and took him down. He wasn't sure what happened next, he started going numb, and all he had thought about was burning them all. A few seconds later he awoke to screaming as the village boys were rolling on the ground all of them on fire. The villagers were coming out and staring at him when he was hit in the back with a rock.
"Kill him before he goes crazy and kills us all."
"Call the Aes Sedai tell them he channeled."
Guaire had looked at the hostile crowd and decided to flee.

It was now a month or so later when he slipped inside an old barn on the outskirts of an unknown village. Light help me I have channeled, he thought for what must have been the thousandth time. When will I go crazy, who will I kill, all my loved ones, cities. It wouldbe better to kill myself.

Finally worn out he covered himsel in hay and fell asleep. He awoke to a womens voice saying. "We know you are in here, come out or this barn will catch on fireand burn to the ground.
guaire came out from the hay to be confronted by six women in red shawls. "I didn't mean to hurt them I didn't know what I was doing."
He felt a sharp slap against his face and fell back.
" Quiet boy, do not talk when your betters are speaking." their leader said. "We will give you two choices, we will gentle you now, take you to your village where your family will watch you die or, you can do what we tell youand earn a place of glory"

Although I deserve to die, I do not want my family to see. Tell me what I must do.

The leader turned to her sisters and said. " I must go to the tower and tell the highest we have found one. When he is ready you know what to do. Start gathering men to support himand make him declare it when it is time." As she turned to leave one of her sisters said. Safe travel Bonwhin, at last the Reds will have an Amyrlin of their own.
Matthew Smith
2706. blocksmith
Leigh

Great to hear from you and best wishes for a safe and enjoyable the holiday. Eat much and prosper.

As you can tell by comment number 27,000,000 your plan for WOT domination is succeeding.

Is there some hint in the use of the word "we" that "we" here should be taking some significance in?

Schrodinger@2695

Perhaps you are correct, but clearly my use of this oft-repeated line from one of the all time great Shakespearean romantic tragedies coaxed Leigh out of her brief sabbatical to update us on her status. At least I am firmly believing that was not a coincidence. (looking into the mirror) gosh darn it...people do like me.
Rob Munnelly
2707. RobMRobM
"Out damn Leigh" (I mean "spot")....

"The quality of Leigh is not strained...."

"Friends, Romans, Leigh, lend me your ears...."

"Some Leighs are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them...."

"Alas poor Leigh, I knew her Horatio...."

"That Leigh, she has a lean and hungry look...."

Rob (p.s. As a game, feel free to name the underlying Shakeapearian play for each).
Henry Loose
2708. schrodinger
RobMRobM@2702

"For example, I'd like predictions of
- what Avi will do when she comes back from Rhudien.
- where Moggy and Cyndane will show up.
- what Merlille and Talaan have been up to after leaving Camelyn in KoD.
- whether Liandrin will be back on the loose after Suroth's fall.
- whether Galad will have to spank Berelain for being a very naughty girl....(Did I say that out loud?)"

in order: 1) come to understanding w/ min and then *cough* ummm... heehee... have a "talk" with Rand
2) moggy and cyndane... probably no shows until TG
3) merlille and Talaan... either show up at WT or I'm thinking we might finally see the 13 13 trick (used on Talaan to get the shadow some more serious firepower)
4) I don't think Liandrin will be back... not much time left to wrap up so many threads
5) heehee... I think you've pretty much got it.

Samadai@2705
that was great... did you make that up or find it somewhere?

blocksmith@2706
I know I'm correct

@2707
"Alas poor Leigh, I knew her Horatio...." Hamlet
"Friends, Romans, Leigh, lend me your ears...." Julius Ceasar
Alas, I cannot name the rest. (looks at the large shakespeare tome on top of the microwave)... *muses* (pun intended) perhaps I should peruse its depths once more.

edit: out damn fuzzy memory! how could I forget Macbeth? The bunker needs to be done being "cleansed" soon because I need a place to hide.
T C
2709. Freelancer
isilel@2682
Verin Page on Encyclopaedia-WoT


forkroot@2704
Nalasean, FTW. Duh.


Blocksmith@2706

::::GOOONGGGGG::::
Thanks for playing, try again sometime.


RobMRobM@2707

MacBeth

I don't know

Julius Caesar

Twelfth Night

Hamlet

Julius Caesar
T C
2710. Freelancer
And onward to the rear...

RobMRobM@2702

1. Aviendha will settle with Min, then she will fulfill another Min vision. She'll need Rand's help.

2. Moghedien will be sent to kill Perrin, Cyndane to kill Mat. Moridin is getting very tired, and tired of failures.

3. Merilille has been hiding since she learned of the Tower siege. Following the Seanchan attack and Tower reunification, she will pop up at the Tower.

4. Liandrin doesn't get to go anywhere. She's a channeler in Seanchan hands. A demotion from da'covale to damane. Drinny is a good damane.

5. Balefire the both of them, they've each done more harm than good.
Wilson Grooms
2711. Silvertip
freelancer @ 2709 I don't know:

Merchant of Venice
Rob Munnelly
2712. RobMRobM
So we still need Shakespeare no. 2 quote. I'll give it a bit before I let you all have nice answer. (There is a clue in the above response.)

Edit: silvertip got it.
Sam Mickel
2713. Samadai
schrodinger@2708,

That was off the top of my head. Since it is apparent we are going to implode I tried to lighten the atmosphere up by telling a story.
Matthew Smith
2714. blocksmith
Freelancer@2709

That's what happens when an engineer tries to quote Shakespeare.

But I still say...

Ask and you shall recieve. Did and done.

And absolutely a case of being at the right place/right time...i.e biggest coincidence on the right side of the Mississippi.

And to add to the list...

Our great Captain's Captain.
Wilson Grooms
2715. .benja
Man-0-Manetheran @2657: =)

blindillusion @2687 and everybody grousing about characters in lieu of a re-read, I have two words for you: Perrin BROODS. And if you didn't get that, you need to (re)read Mike Hoye's old re-read of the ending of the Wheel of Time!


RobMRobM @2702, no prediction, but I'm hoping Avi will actually propose to Rand, the Aiel way. I want to see that.

But then, I want Cadsuane to be awesome, the Aes Sedai to be competent and the Forsaken to be scary.

I predict that RJ plotted Hinderstap, because I don't see Brandon inserting something that far out of left field (but I do see RJ doing it). Not sure whether that means it'll be plot-relevant, though.
Wilson Grooms
2716. .benja
But then, I want Cadsuane to be awesome, the Aes Sedai to be competent and the Forsaken to be scary.

Though then again, I also really wanted Egwene to become Amyrlin ever since Elayne joked about it in TGH! :-)
Wilson Grooms
2717. Silvertip
@2712 RobMRobM

Sorry you didn't get the chance to extract your pound of flesh.

S
Barry T
2718. blindillusion
Here you go, Rob@2702

- what Avi will do when she comes back from Rhudien.
~ Well, I said somewhere way, way up there that Avi is gonna show up with a marriage wreath, but alas, no Rand for most of ToM.

- where Moggy and Cyndane will show up.
~Cyndane? Don't know, but I'm sure whatever she's up to she will fail in a spectacular way.

~~Moggy? Well, with the debacle of Black Ajah at the end of KoD I can see her seeking out a new whipping-post, if she can do so without Moridin noticing. She’ll rescue Liandrin from the Seanchan, untie her knot and set her loose to do some dastardly deed or another. I mean, Liandrin has to get free somewhere along the line. Either one of the SGs or Moiraine has to ice this moron at some point or another.

- what Merlille and Talaan have been up to after leaving Camelyn in KoD.
~Long discussions about pillows, or am I thinking about two different characters? Anyway, I see Talaan wearing a new white dress in the near future, which is going to piss off a thus far useless, and rather annoying, Atha'an Miere.

- whether Liandrin will be back on the loose after Suroth's fall.
~ See Moggy

- whether Galad will have to spank Berelain for being a very naughty girl....(Did I say that out loud?)
~ I can see this as being about the most awkward relationship ever to ship out of Port Relation. Think about it, you have Berelain, possibly the most (foward) woman in WoT, and you have Galad, who always does what’s right. What’s right by the Children of the Light? To remain abstinent (or at least I think this is a prerequisite of membership. Or at least appreciated if not necessarily required?)

Rob@2719 ~ Yeah, that was the wrong word. Forward would be better. ~change made~

.benja@2715 ~ At what point did I "grouse" about Perrin? I know he "broods", along with several other things. I simply said I wanted to push him down some stairs. If you don't think he made some SERIOUS mistakes in the not too distant past, well, I just don't know.

Hmm, my 123 post on this Thread...
Rob Munnelly
2719. RobMRobM
2718. Berelain is very unpromiscuous, with only two prior notches on her bedpost. Safe to say Galad will find good reasons to get himself out of the Children ASAP. Also safe to say that he'll be heading off to TG before hooking up and Berelain will be yearning for him to come back from storming the castle to give him the welcome home she deserves....
T C
2720. Freelancer
Silvertip@2711

Ahh, that 'splains it. The only major Shakespearean play which puts me to sleep, either in print or on stage. Taming of the Shrew is more engaging, in my mind.


Samadai@2713

See, some folks got it, some folks don't. I don't. Stuff I've seen, stuff I've known, I can tell those stories. Making up stuff, not so much. Ah well, as Dirty Harry says. . .


blocksmith@2714

Sorry, I didn't intend to be rude, the GONG was for the Smalley reference. Blech! And, since you brought it up...
Ask and it shall be given you;
Seek and ye shall find;
Knock, and it shall be opened unto you

Matthew 7:7


.benja@2715

Brandon says that there are no scenes in TGS which he conjured out of thin air. Every scene was imagined by Robert Jordan. He had liberty to creatively adjust scenes for continuity, timing, pacing and interconnections to other scenes. In fact, his answer to the how much was RJ and how much was him was "It's 100% Robert Jordan, and there's a whole lot of me in there too".


And if TOR goes down in flames when I push the POST button, you can all blame me. If my count is correct, this is comment #200 for me, on one thread. ::stare::
H.Voortman
2721. Grijze Vos
[TFOH: 15, What Can Be Learned in Dreams, 214]

Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken.

Imo this dream of Egwene concerns the Chrystal Throne. If so, the throne had to be empty when Rhand kneeled. It also explaines how he can bind the Nine Moons.
Wilson Grooms
2722. .benja
Freelancer @2720, yeah, I know, but as forkroot said @2621, as per Brandon's comments it may still be "extrapolation" on his part. Me, I'm thinking the zombies are yet another sign that RJ is touching the pattern :)


BTW, have y'all already discussed how Egwene's remaining Seanchan prophecies are going to play out? (hard to search for, "Egwene" and "prophecies" and "Seanchan" and "sword" and "running" are all so unspecific...)
Henry Loose
2723. schrodinger
Freelancer@2720

you have 130 more posts than me ::salutes:: that is the exactly the number of people it takes to turn 5 channelers to the shadow at the same time.

I've got nothing else.
Ben Frey
2724. BenPatient
I wouldn't call Myrddraal "people" though...
H Brian
2725. hbrianmcfarland
Hi, first time posting, but here are some thoughts regarding this book and the next, when some of the other major prophecies will likely be required to come to pass.

First,
Loved the book, even though it took forever for this part to play out, Rand's 'breakdown' was a long time coming. What can we say about it? Rand knew himself he was never insane, just angry because he couldn't be himself because he couldn't be like other folks and live his life the way he wanted. (Which he came to realize at the end isn't so bad, he just has to adjust his own vision of his future.)

Second, I think the '...white bar... and the three will become one' does not involve Callandor but balefire and the 'third' will be Moridin.

Other prophecies:
Logain and his glory: Demandred, who RJ went waaaay out his way to describe as similar in facial structure and appearance as vaguely Saldean, will be faced by Logain and defeated. For those who argue that this cannot be, think about where the Dreadlords will come from.

I have to leave for a bit and will discuss my opinions on other prophecies in a while,
Brian
Wilson Grooms
2726. alreadymadwithshedeserves
RobMRobM @2719
she deserves?

Grijze Vos @2721
I thought that chair referred to the Lion Throne. Elayne wasn't happy to find out what Rand did to it during his short tenure in Caemlyn.
Rob Munnelly
2727. RobMRobM
@2726 - I thought some might find that amusing. R
T C
2728. Freelancer
hbrianmcfarland@2725

Welcome to our nightmare. The prophecy Min reads doesn't say "white bar". I can't promise this is verbatim but it's very close:
He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.

Min and Cadsuane both agree it's about Callandor, that's pretty strong evidence in its favor.

RE: Logain, you aren't suggesting Demandred is Taim, are you? Might want to duck and cover if you are, and all I'll say is "Incoming!".


amw@2726

Several commentors on many sites have noted that Rand never actually sat in the Lion Throne. He set it up above where he had a less formal chair placed for himself. Elayne's anger when she saw that in T'a'R was because she perceived this display as him showing off a trophy, where he intended it to honor the true ruler as being above his position. In regards Andor, if I can look into Rand's head a moment, he thinks himself nothing more than a protector-prefect, if you will, since he recovered it from forsaken control. He took on the responsibility of management, dealing with Reene and Halwin, but never once thought himself as king there.

Anyway, the Crystal Throne concept seems more apt. First off, while Elayne would be seriously displeased had Rand sat on the Lion Throne, I don't believe her disposition would rightly be called "murderous". This is a place where Jordan's wording would have been significant. Fortuona, on the other hand, upon finding a male channeler usurping her seat...
Wilson Grooms
2729. Rukaiya
Another lurker coming out of the woodwork here. I've got to say, I've really enjoyed reading all the comments and speculation here, as well as going through the re-reads. It's so much fun to see other folks' ideas on a series I love. Anyway, reading tGS inspired me to embark in a massive re-read of the entire series and some things have struck me in light of the events in this book.

I know the Rand-Moridin balefire incident has been discussed to death, but some of the Rand-Ishamael interactions in the earlier books have been catching my attention. For instance, in The Great Hunt, Ishamael tells Rand that "We are tied together as surely as two sides of the same coin" and also "sometimes old enemies fight so long that they become allies and never realize it. They think they strike at you, but they have become so closely linked, it is as if you guided the blow yourself." Do you think this is just Ishy being his usual portentous self, or is some serious foreshadowing going on here (or both)?

In a similar vein, I was glancing through the WoT FAQ, and I noticed a discussion of the "Third Man" in Rand's head who starts popping up in tPoD. The FAQ hasn't been updated to include the last few books and I don't know if it's been discussed here at all, but especially after tGS, it seems like Moridin may have been making guest appearances in Rand's head as early as the PoD, given that this seems to begin after the great balefire showdown in Shadar Logoth. Further, Rand describes the face of the third as blurry, neither himself or LTT, but familiar, which would apply to Moridin, since Rand has met him once. LTT names himself, Rand, and the mysterious third as "destroyers," also applicable. Finally, LTT asks "How many will we three kill before the end?" Moridin has definitely racked up the dead. So did the Moridin-Rand bond really go back that far? It's been a while since I read those books, and I'm pretty fuzzy on the details.
Wilson Grooms
2730. alreadymadwithberelainman
RobMRobM @2727
Even the Wise Ones think she deserves a man. And not just any kind of man.

Freelancer @2728
Yes, you actually have a point. It's just that most think it's the Lion throne.

Rukaiya @2729
Yes, IIRC there was eventually a Rand POV where he recognized the face as the man who helped him in Shadar Logoth.
Guillaume Bergeron
2731. Nightbaron
Okay, about the Rand sitting in a chair, and the woman being murderously angry, here are the quotes which make me think this is in reference to the Lion Throne.

First, Rand did sit on it.

Fires of Heaven, paperback, page 958:
"They're both dead," Rand said bleakly. He sat down on the throne, his head resting against the moonstone Lion of Andor.


Second, mere pages later, Morgase has some thoughts about men sitting on her throne.

Fires of Heaven, paperback, page 963:
She would have her throne back, and woe to Gaebril or any man who though he could sit on it in her place.


In other words, it was never about Elayne, and it was fulfilled in tFoH.
H Brian
2732. hbrianmcfarland
Back to my last post:

On Logain's prophecy: Other facts about 'Taim' that we know: He had been captured by a team of sisters, several of which were known to be Black Ajah (this team of sisters also included Cabriana Mecandes, and we KNOW what happened to her).

'Taim' taught the Asha'man weaves that he obviously did not use against the Saldeans (and could not know?) or he likely would have had more success. He also knew the trick to ignore heat that he may have learned but likely did not know that either.
(War having a tendency to prevent thoughtful discourse in comfort.)

'Taim' also knew how to detect channeling in other men!!! Given no other man after the Breaking had survived long enough to meet another man who could channel, much less recognize he could channel, what makes you think that some lowly guy from Saldaea could learn it, but that story could have been easily added to cover Demandred's knowledge.

Demandred was asked specifically by the Dark One whether he would use balefire in his name.

On Demandred's looks, which RJ took great pains in reminding us that Demandred looked Saldean, altering his appearance via inverted Mask of Mirrors would have taken so little power to maintain that Rand, being unused to seeing/feeling the power in men would not have recognized it. (Though Lews Therin may have, but he was rarely lucid in the early parts of Lord of Chaos, or just about any scene in which Taim appears.)

The last and most important thing, 'Taim' knows about the Lord of Chaos! Nowhere in any of the other books does anyone besides the Forsaken mention the Lord of Chaos, and yet Taim does at the end of Knife of Dreams, when Pevara asked to bond Asha'man. (That confirmed it for me.)

The third man in Rand's head was confirmed as Moridin/Ishamael in the dream sequence in The Gathering Storm. (Don't remember the exact passage here, but Rand instantly recognized him early in the Dream sequence and even called him by his AoL First name.)

Other prophecies:
Rand meeting with Egwene as Amyrlin Seat/Rand sitting on the Crystal Throne: This will happen prior to Rand going to Seandar to sit on the Crystal Throne, but not before one of the damane captured in the raid on the Tower becomes one of Egwene's aides. (Elayne was mad, but not mad enough to kill Rand.) Rand going to Seandar may also fulfill the other prophecy in which he carries a beggar's staff. (Min mentions this in EotW.)

Mat losing an eye will likely happen in the Tower of Ghenjei while saving Moiraine.

Until later,
Brian
H Brian
2733. hbrianmcfarland
On Galad leaving the Children: Very unlikely since he is their leader (and they likely will not follow Rand without him, since it was his idea to fight alongside Aes Sedai). However, Berelain will still likely to have to wait until after TG for him. Although, it never occurred to me that it would be Galad (or any other whitecloak) as when Min had her vision they were dealing a substantial amount with the Aiel, I thought it might be a gai'shain she fell in love with.

Brian
Wilson Grooms
2734. Rukaiya
Wow, can't believe I missed that. Goes to show that I gobbled tGS down too fast. I'm going to enjoy reading it again more slowly. Thanks for the quick responses!
Sam Mickel
2735. Samadai
Brian,

Robert Jordan has flat out stated that Taim is not Demandred. Never was intended to be
T C
2736. Freelancer
NightBaron@2731

Hm, I stand corrected. But just to be nitpicky, Morgase doesn't know Rand has sat on her throne, and likely never will. So, kind of a squishy one there. It doesn't preclude the prophecy being about the Crystal Throne.


hbrianmcfarland@2732

Robert Jordan:
"Taim is not Demandred."

That more than settles it, I'm afraid.


Brandon recently stated that Rand has already fulfilled the "beggar" vision, with his post-Tam-reunion Ebou Dar walkabout, while considering a clean wipe of the whole city.


RE: Galad & Berelain. Many have long figured Min's vision for Berelain meant Galad. She's among the most attractive women around, who would she fall head over heels for? Just the prettiest boy around. The day he became a Whitecloak, that one was a cinch.
Sam Mickel
2737. Samadai
Freelancer,
Sorry I got there before you, but in my defense it was the first time I have been able to debunk a Taim=Demandred theory
Leslie Annis
2739. Lannis
@ Samadai: if we wait long enough, we'll all get a turn... s'like the Olver = Gaidal Cain theory... it just keeps surfacing. It takes us all to spread the truth. ;)

@ hbrianmcfarland: Welcome to the insanity! S'good to have all this new blood! Would you like a cookie? Oatmeal date turnovers!

I'm going to have to make some more snickerdoodles... we didn't rescue the end of the batch before we hired that Asha'man to balefire the bunker... s'a little toasty in there... and really, we'll have to pass the hat for sure now... dude wasn't cheap. And... well... we'll have to replace R.Fife's furniture and scrape up some new lawn chairs (again).

Good news... the Elaida infestion is officially over! :D
H Brian
2740. hbrianmcfarland
I'll concede the Taim/Demandred point, however, there are far too many coincidences for me to entirely give up Demandred's involvement.

I remember that particular comment now, because RJ did hint at the time there was something else working in the background of that plotline.

(And this was after Osan'gar was made known as Corlan Dashiva.)

2702@RobRobM: As for what Avi will do after Rhiudean. Remember Rand's Dream regarding Him carrying Aviendha off with Elayne and Min fighting off Aiel? She has already made her decision regarding being married to him once she had become an 'equal'.
I think Min's help with the Wise Ones 'tasks' will help settle the decision in Aviendha's mind.
Leslie Annis
2741. Lannis
Um... are you guys reading a comment tally somewhere? Or are you manually counting your comment listings in your profile? Do I dare look?

(Estimate: 50... though I'm probably waaaay to high... or underestimating my addiction...)

EDIT: I counted in my profile listing... 51... a little too creepy in accuracy... ::shudder::
Abraham Park
2742. Abe
Hey guys,

I have these question marks surrounding Rand al'Thor, and I was hoping if some of you could help me out :)

First, what happened to him on Dragonmount? Besides finding out the voice of Lewis Therin is forever gone, like...why did he laugh? Did he laugh because he will never hear the voice again?

Second, based on his "new change" if there was a change in his attitude, how is he going to act in the next book? I mean will he be more sane? Is he going to be more kind? What about his "I must be as hard as a rock!" personality?

Finally, was it because of Tam's advice about why a soldier fights that helped "change" Rand, or was it because of what Lewis Therin said about this time trying to make it right?

I would really appreciate any solutions because I'm just way too confused over this...
H Brian
2743. hbrianmcfarland
Who knows how he will act?

Remember, there have been small musings on Rand's part that he thought he was sane, and that Lews Therin was not, but because he was acting the way he was, most were questioning that assumption.

As for the rest, we'll have to see.

I think the hardness factor will still be there, but it won't be anywhere near as severe as it has been. (I think he might even get married in Towers of Midnight, given that likely will happen prior to Tarmon'Gaidon.)
Sam Mickel
2744. Samadai
Freelancer @2738,

Wait, when did I get nominated for guruhood? I would like to thank the academy(er fellow posters). umm yeah.

Lannis I counted my comments and am now up to 88 for this post. I think that is close to my total for every other post.
Ron Garrison
2745. Man-0-Manetheran
Let's put the Olver = Gaidal Cain theory to rest.

Olver = Alfred E. Neuman. Done.

Oatmeal date turnovers? Sounds yummy. I've never had one before.
Sam Mickel
2746. Samadai
Since the bunker has now been deElaida'd I made some very good Banana and zucchini bread for the bunker. Here are a couple of new recliners and some glasses for the oosqai
Alice A
2747. Wetlandernw
Ahah! I've only got 45 comments on this one! Of course, the fact that I didn't start until the 700s, when all the best stuff had already been said, might affect that...

As for the re-read, I personally (and very selfishly) am grateful that it won't start up until December - I'll be out of town and with limited internet access, and I'd have to play catch-up all over again.

Sam - congrats. ;)
T C
2748. Freelancer
Abe@2742

Rand has put a thing or two back into their proper perspective. How large a shift it was, and how much he has left to correct, remain to be seen. Min's viewing regarding Cadsuane is partially accomplished (per direct answer by Brandon), so there is more to come (and whatever is left must include the Asha'man as well). But he remembered that love is above all. Chapter title, anyone? He will most certainly drop back from his "I must become cuendillar" position. He will resume a more human behavior, and he might even rescind his banishment of Cadsuane (though Brandon won't like doing it).

Remember, he's been on the slope to that bottom he hit ever since the shadowspawn battle in the Stone. That's when he began to believe that he needed to be harder. Perhaps he is now able to hear folks tell him that stronger doesn't mean harder. But it won't be instantaneous. Climbing up is harder than falling down.

To answer your question, absolutely yes, it was his final reflection on the comments by Tam, and asking himself the why, that led him to his epiphany. It was the question of why that led to Lews Therin's sudden realization that Ilyena isn't gone forever, but can live again as he has.

For my money, Rand has always been mostly sane. He became disturbed, very much so, but who wouldn't while carrying that same mountain and thinking themselves alone to do so? When Lews Therin was finally able to let go of his grief, when Rand was finally able to bend from trying to be so hard, the two personalities became compatible, and merged. According to Brandon, Rand believes that he will never hear that voice in his head again. Belief and order give strength.
Tess Laird
2749. thewindrose
Hey, why did we let Elaida go? I am assuming we could have put one of the WiFi A'dams on her, and we could have had her cleaning, and most importantly, since she can't lie, we could have questioned her about what has actually happened compared to what she thought her Fortellings were about.

I will supply some Pumpkin and Apple Pie, even if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving come and have a piece. (I have whip cream and ice cream for the pies too.)

And how 'bout some Grand Marnier, Drambuie and 43 for an after dinner treat.

And if TOR goes down in flames when I push the POST button, you can all blame me. If my count is correct, this is comment #200 for me, on one thread. ::stare:: = Guru Freelancer
T C
2750. Freelancer
Nightbaron,

Took one more look, and the final words of Morgase's POV quote struck me:
She would have her throne back, and woe to Gaebril or any man who though he could sit on it in her place.


I think we can all agree that Rand never considered himself Andor's ruler, and so even though he sat on the throne, it wasn't "in her place". This thought verified by him setting the throne aside so that he wouldn't be seen sitting on it as though he ruled.
Barry T
2751. blindillusion
Freelancer@2748

Climbing up is harder than falling down.


Especially with the ramifications of using the True Power still to come. I'm dreading that part. Rand has been through enough...and he still has to "die".

On a lighter note...

backs truck up to the bunker

Well, since I suggested the Asha'man and didn't chip in for his services, I suppose I'll restock the bunker.

I've got two recliners. I've got three and a half couches. I've got lawn chairs. I've even got some cots for those who stay a little too late doing research. (it's nice being in the military =))

Also, though it's getting cold, I've got some homemade Milky Way ice cream (a Thanksgiving tradition) and some more peanut butter cookies.
Tricia Irish
2752. Tektonica
Samadai@2705

Loved your story and was *head-desking* frantically trying to remember where that passage was! Thanks for clearing that up. You could have a career......
john massey
2753. subwoofer
Woosh!

@Leigh- Crazytown, Eh? Sounds like you need to spend some quiet time up in one of my tree stands. Great for clearing your head:) Just remember the important things in life:
"Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper."

-- Cohen the Barbarian Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic


@Samadai- I'm sticking with my burbon- trouble though it may be, it is better the devil you know...

@allthelongtimelurkersfirsttimeposters, welcome:) First off, I didn't do it, and watch out for Fife's rickrolling. The rest is duck soup.

@Lannis- pass around a hat? Forgetaboutit. We'll just wonder down Fraternity Row and "borrow" the couches and sundries left on various porches. Not that I have ever done such things, but it is a cheap way to furnish a place, and it is somewhat Robin Hood like...

As Rand was sitting on a mountain top contemplating his navel I know he did a 180 in his current state of mind but I was thinking of some of the things he said to Ny in the past, specifically with him not joining Lan.
"I don't plan to abandon the southern lands, not at all. When the Trollocs punch through the Gap, they will break up into fists to invade. That's when my forces will hit them, led by Bashere, Traveling by gateway, we can pick the best battlefields to suit our needs."
"Rand," Nynaeve said her anger fading to horror. "Lan will die!"
"Then who am I to deny him that?" Rand said. "We all deserve the chance to find peace."...
..."My duty is to kill the Dark One," Rand said, as if to himself. "I kill him, then I die. That is all."

..."A Borderlander's place is guarding the Border," Narishma said. "I was a cobbler's son, and yet I was trained with the sword, spear, bow, axe, and sling. Even before I joined the Asha'man, I could best four out of five trained southern soldiers in a duel. We live to defend. And yet they left. Now of all times. With thirteen Aes Sedai."


Makes me think that Rand's plan is thought out to an extent. Assuming Lan accepts the role of "bait" to the Trollocs. Tactically a couple of things bother me. First off, what about Mat and using his skills? Then there is the whole Aiel question and why Rand would leave them, Rhuarc et al., out of the picture. Seems a waste of resources.

And Rand has this really large army of well trained soldiers, far removed from the Gap and he just leaves them. I know there is the whole "box" thing going on, it just bugs me that the big one is coming and Rand isn't gathering up everyone to go meet it.

I also think that Ny will change things. If she is smart enough to get things going for Lan- re. The Golden Crane chapter- then she should be smart enough to Travel to the Borderland armies and tell them that al'Lan Mandragoran, Lord of the Seven Towers, Lord of the Lakes, and true Blade of Malkier is marching to the Gap, what are they doing putzing around in no man's land- get your butts where they need to be- and Gateway the whole army there.

The Seanchan thing will do a 180. The chapter with introducing OFortuona the heads of Trollocs and examining the bodies is a start. I do not recall any mention of Myrddraal but I am sure as soon as the Empress has a close encounter with one, that tune will change and she will be figuring to deal with the Blight too. Gradually it seems that many of Tuon's wrong suppositions of Randland are changing- her initial perception of Mat, the way she dealt with Beslan, even meeting Rand...
He had interrupted her twice in a row. The Daughter of the Nine Moons. How could he be so bold?
He was the Dragon Reborn, that was how.


Once she shakes the superstitions her people in regards to prophecy, and hegemony, I think it will be a cool epic battle at the end. Or if she stays on the same path, she will be fighting against her husband in the end because Rand will have Mat deal with the Seanchan.

Edit- Great Googly moogly- didn't realize I rambled for so long... I just finally got around to saying things like I have been threatening to if I had time. Dang!

Woof™.
Leslie Annis
2754. Lannis
blind @ 2751: I've got three and a half couches.

And now I've got visions of chain saws... buzzzzzzzz Thanks for the contributions!

I got nothin' else tonight, folks... though possibly more baking tomorrow--it's the bake 'n freeze season... the Christmas Crazy is around the corner! Wait! Does this mean there'll be more post-pausing for the holidays around the corner? Meh... I'll be busy anyway... :|

@ Sub: if we're not passing the hat for furnishings, perhaps we should pass the hat for something holiday-y for Leigh? Maybe we should be good little rereaders and give our bloggess-momma a cuendillar plate with our handprints?

Hmm... it's gonna have to be a big plate...



(I sense we'll be going sideways soon... *twitch*)
Sam Mickel
2755. Samadai
Lannis,

Sideways came and went a long time ago.
H Brian
2756. hbrianmcfarland
Re: 2753
I think Rand is going to change his mind regarding letting Lan defend Tarwin's Gap alone, or at the very least be convinced to change his plans somewhat. I think his initial plan will stay relatively the same, but once the Borderlanders come on board, which Rand may deal with early rather than late, (thirteen Aes Sedai and all) they may insist on going to the Gap to defend it, especially if they learn the Golden Crane is defending the Gap alone.

Given the circumstances, this scenario comes to mind: Rand realizes that the Borderlanders are attempting to protect themselves from his channeling and goes to meet with them. Rand convinces them to join him and the Aes Sedai convince him to go meet with (or form a circle and shield him to take him to meet) the Amyrlin, who they think is Elaida because the news hasn't reached them about the attack and Elaida's capture/Egwene's ascension. Then he meets with Egwene as Amyrlin, etc.

(Remember that the events at the end of KoD didn't overlap TGS until about a third of the way through. Hence the reason I think this is a more viable scenario early in the book rather than near the end. IMO, any scenario that brings the Borderlanders into the fray near the end of the book could very well make things end badly for the Light.)
john massey
2757. subwoofer
@Lannis- yes, that would be a mighty big plate;) How about the gift that keeps giving. Leigh seems to be a busy person, running around, many things on the go. How about a personal organizer, or an assistant? I hear Suffa is putzing around with time on her hands...

@brianmc... hmmmmmmm. Interesting, and it does tie in nicely. Only problems I have is the whole "box" scenario. Rand isn't gonna play that game again. Not for all the tabac in the Two Rivers. And if Rand can't channel, then neither can the 13. Plus... I don't see Rand playing the fool again and wondering into such a situation without Asha'man or at least Ny and friends. He went to see OFortuona with Ny so it seems like he would repeat a similar pattern for future parleys. Maybe take some WOs or even some of the AS that took the oath of fealty to him.

Edit- Grrrrrrrrr! The load times here! My old Dodge could turn faster than this lumbering thread!

Woof™.
john massey
2758. subwoofer
And I second Samadai's sideways comment- we slid sideways and kept on going down to queer street a long time ago. Hell, we slid past the lunatic asylum and walloped into barmy land. Popluation WoT Tor followers, now Leigh-less.

Try the pies. Martna Baily makes them fresh daily.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
2759. Rukaiya
@brian

I can't help thinking that even if Rand does change his mind, he might be too late. That vision of Nynaeve weeping over a grave does not bode well. I keep trying to think whose grave it could be, other than Lan's, and I'm not coming up with many candidates. I really hope that isn't the way it works out, as I've always really liked Lan, but my gut tells me that maybe we're about to be hit with a character death stick.
Guillaume Bergeron
2760. Nightbaron
Freelancer @2750

I can understand and agree with how you interpret Morgase's words, however, if we examine the actual prophecy:

The Fires of Heaven, paperback, page 300:
Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken

It seems to still apply perfectly to the situation. It doesn't mention the owner knowing that Rand sat down on it, just that Egwene knew the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken, which Morgase basically demonstrates in my previously quoted comment.
john massey
2761. subwoofer
And if we are putting out an APB for me, how about for Wolfmage, JEJ, FSS & Co. My guess is that they can't get their fingers free to type. Straight jackets may be in vogue, but they are very restrictive, especially if you just got veneers.


Woof™.
lanyo lanyo
2762. lanyo
And
I finally caught up. You guys covered everything. In the whole world. I love reading all the ideas, and learning which can't be, and then all the ridiculosity.
I'm so bummed I couldn't get to any signings. I would love to meet some of you guys as well!
I have nothing valid to contribute. My eyeballs are tired, and I'm in awe of all you people.
Alice A
2763. Wetlandernw
lanyo @ 2762 - And I'm in awe of you for plowing all the way through this mess!! Sideways doesn't begin to cover it, does it? ;) Glad you didn't get lost...
Henry Loose
2764. schrodinger
in regard to nynaeve weeping over a grave. Min could not interpret the vision, so it is not certain to come to pass yet. I think it was put in TGS to indicate that if Rand kept on his present course behavior-wise, that it would have dire consequences outside of the world ending ones. By hinting that a very popular character was going to die if Rand did not get his act together, I think BwS or RJ made it all the sweeter when he finally did get his act together (hey guys! Lan might not die after all! yay!)
Barry T
2765. blindillusion
schrodinger@2764

Perhaps the “grave” Nyn is crying over is meant to be figurative and not a literal grave, which is why Min cannot get an accurate read on the vision. Maybe this is the point in the story where Nyn is so sick of all the death around her that she finally manages to heal someone who has died. I think she'd be so horrified by what she's done it's something she would never do again...until she has to save Rand in some way.

Wetlandernw@2763

Though it could be said I'm one of the participants who has caused this thread to tilt several degrees beyond sideways on several occasions, I agree it is no mean feat to worry oneself through this monster.
~Happy you stuck with it lanyo@2762.

Lannis@2754

Interesting story there. Happened while I was stationed at Luke AFB in Arizona. It involved an eventful trip to Vegas, a woman with a pocket knife, my skateboard going through the windshield of a Mercedes ~NOT my fault~ and, well, yes, a saw. Very amusing. We still get a good laugh when we talk about that night. Good times.
Carolyn Goodwin
2766. metacarolyn
Just want to share a few tidbits I picked up from reports on dragonmount and theoryland.

First, "Rand gets a new sword in chapter one. It has been confirmed by Kathana Travaeler that this is Justice through direct email correspondence with Brandon and Maria."

And here's an interesting bit from Brandon regarding the True Power: "The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern. It leaves scars on the Pattern. Robert Jordan said in an interview or maybe it was actually in the books, when you make a gateway with the True Power you are actually ripping a whole in the Pattern and going somewhere else. When you are using the True Power that is what you are doing, it is contrary to the Pattern."

To me, this makes it even less likely that Rand will use the true power to save the world.

If you read the rest of the posts, there are a few other interesting pieces of information that I at least hadn't seen before.
Wilson Grooms
2767. Seamus1602
blindillusion@2765, schrodinger@2764, others

I've thought since reading the 'Nyn weeps over grave' vision that it would end up being one of the 2 women Nyn 'hates' (Moiraine or Cads) or Birgitte.

I don't believe Mo will die again, so I'm leaning towards Cads dying (after completing her teaching, which is what will turn Nyn to truly respect and honor her).

This conclusion is based upon my idea that Lan's arc would not end with his death merely because Malkier will need a king.

Additionally, I tried to list characters that Nyn would weep for and came up with the following: Birgitte, Lan, Egwene, Elayne, Rand, Mat, Perrin, maybe Min, Avi, and any other 2R native. I throw Cads and Moiraine in there because I've always thought Nyn's personality is the quintessential love/hate. Essentially, she hates them until she admits to herself how much she respects and admires them (which she has begun doing for both as of tGS). Of those, I can only see Birgitte, some 2Rers, and Cads dying before the end. I discount the 2Rers because it seems to vague. Maybe Tam?

One last nutty theory to throw out in the love/hate category would be Alivia. Theory: Alivia helps Rand die, and in so doing sacrifices herself and helps defeat the DO. Rand comes back (whether by Nyn's actions or not), and Nyn realizes the sacrifice of Alivia. Perhaps this is further colored by Nyn's ongoing disrespect and suspicion of Alivia (cause Nyn can and will feel guilty).

So, IMO, Nyn weeps over Cads, Birgitte, or Alivia. I lean especially toward Cads because I feel that would nicely wrap up Nyn's personal growth plot.
Henry Loose
2768. schrodinger
hey, waddaya know! the prophecies about Rand's "sword of justice" were right. It is the sword: Justice. Just like all the other prophecies, a vague double meaning gave us a clue that we weren't able to confirm until we were told that it was the case. Sorry for the jibber-jabber, its 1 am and I need sleep. ::looks around bunker, snorts, shakes head:: who left this furniture in a pile? ::rummages, drags out a couch:: night all ::plops down with a copy of EoTW::

edit:

::looks up at Seamus1602's post:: gaaahhh!!! just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. The cads idea would fit so well, and I could believe it when it happened. ::settles back down with a snort, to "sleep"::
Barry T
2769. blindillusion
I did my own read through of the Dragonmount Q&A Complilation Page and noticed this:

• Verin’s revelations will have ramifications throughout the last two books. Brandon is surprised that more people haven’t been asking about this.


I'd have to agree. Especially if Egwene continues to focus only on the Black Ajah portion of Verin's Who's Who of Dark Friends.

schrodinger@2768

Well, I asked Narg to get things organized. Just so hard to get good help these days. And after I insisted we warn him about balefiring the bunker. Sheesh.
Wilson Grooms
2770. Whettingstone
So, managed to trundle through most of the posts (I got lost a few times and probably missed a couple somewhere). Lots of good theorycrafting and ideas. Surprisingly little flaming aswell. Kudos for both of that to all of you.

I wish I could go on a book signing aswell (I think they're all done now though?) but alas... Living in the frigid north of Europe is not a good place for those.

I'll most likely keep on lurking and not post a lot. Don't really have the time for making up theories, I just like reading ideas and deciding if I agree or not.

So, my post here was kinda useless but I still wanted to say: Keep up the good work all of you and especially Leigh with the rereads.
Wilson Grooms
2771. Planeswalker
Metacarolyn @2766

I guess that resolves the Justice sword debate.

Oh and the question, 'Is Cads Ilyena Reborn?' solicited an Ewwwwww from BWS. That was really funny... Ditto to 'ewwww' a million times!
Thomas Keith
2772. insectoid
Free @2679 re: Chrome: Then I'll have to try it. ;)

Leigh @2696: Hope everything is well; please come back soon!

RobM² @2697: 4000, indeed. Schrodinger is probably closer to the mark with 3500, but whichever it is, we may need some of that NASCAR duct tape to fix Tor.com...

Lannis @2741: I have a little notepad by my computer that, aside from recording where on the thread I left off, I write the numbers of my own posts. 38. ::shudder::

Samadai @2755 & Wet @2763: I believe this has escalated into sideways in a different dimension... perhaps along an 11th-dimensional string?

Aaannnnd I feel like a zombie cause I've been driving for half the day, which is why I can't think of anything useful to say...

*twitch* *shiver*
Wilson Grooms
2773. Seamus1602
blindillusion@2769

Thanks for pointing out the rest of Verin's info. I'll admit that I haven't given much thought to the ramifications of Verin's book beyond the BA names. My thought has been, well, there's like 100 BA running around, so they'll have to deal with that.

Now, I am wondering about what further tidbits Verin's book will contain. I feel that it's hard to guess because so little info was provided about the main body of the book. Verin says it's the Dark's 'Names, locations, explanations... Everything I learned about them.'

I'm drawing a blank on what else of great use there would be except the BA names. I'm guessing that her info will be very important to Caemlyn, Elayne, and Andor, specifically referencing whatever she may know about the BT and Duhura's plans.

Are there any other active DF plots that we have any visibility to? Maybe she'll give the full explanation of Taim's escape - also a possibility for as-yet-unseen 13x13 trick: Taim the false Dragon >>> 13x13 >>> M'Hael with Forsaken-like speech patterns: 'so-called Aes Sedai' (or was it 'so-called Aiel'? ...not sure). Whatever else happens with Taim, he's got to be connected to AoL or AoL channelers somehow, or all that 'so-called' business is pointless.
Wilson Grooms
2774. Seamus1602
I, like others, just cannot walk away...

insectoid@2772

I second the idea that Chrome is awesome. I don't use Windows often, but when I do, Chrome is the way to go.


Re: specific people being reborn

Egwene is Latra Posae Decume reborn. Look it up. It's too true for me to even give reasons. It's like a self-evident truth.
Joanne
2775. Joanne
regarding Verin...

I have been wondering about the time-line lately.

Verin visits Egwene on the day before the Tower raid which is within 2-3 days of the end of the book. And she was with Mat on the last day of his story line.
BS has indicated somewhere(?)that Matt's story line ends several weeks before the others.
So that leaves Verin 2 to 3 weeks to do other things...?

Any ideas?

ps: my 5 year old home computer now refuses to load this thread so I can only read this at work. o-oh...
Bouke de Boer
2776. Bouke
Post #21 on this thread, that's .76%. Yay!

I'm working hard on my Perrin re-read, so I have preciously little time to comment. Besides, the 100 posts since my last covered most...

-dare I say it? Sure, because I can!- And Justice for all!!

::dodges, ducks, dives, dips, and dodges::


More later.
Alexander Foff
2777. Abbumaru
Sorry guys, offtopic, but Bouke, is that you, THE Bouke? If it is you, I had no idea you were a WoT fan. =)

Enjoying the discussion guys, keep it coming! ;)
Richard Fife
2778. R.Fife
FYI, if a new bunker exists (NOT THAT I'M SAYING IT DOES), it is made of cuendillar that was made with the True Power. Seek this unconfirmed sanctuary at your own risk.
Tess Laird
2779. thewindrose
Yipes!!
I know R.Fife left plenty of clues that he was a dark friend - (see all the rickrolling), but it is like a sucker punch to the gut when he said his new bunker is made with the True Power...

Also- more to do with our lovely reread(which I hope starts up soon). Survey - I would like to be able to include tGS info. Thoughts?
Matthew Smith
2780. blocksmith
Freelancer@2720

Stuart was funny...for about 15 seconds.

ATMwithshedeserves@2726

RobmRobm was just taking a page out of the Bill Parcell's handbook for indirect motivation.

Samadai@2744

Congratulations...but I was disappointed in your acceptance speech. No shout out to Mom or a signicant other for their support through all those difficult times in your life?

Subwoofer@2753

That's Bourbon with an O...and Maker's or Baker's is a satisfactory substitute for Scotch.

Metacarolyn@2766

Thanks for posting the information about Justice...settles some discussions. But regarding the TP, not necessarily. In fact, you could argue the opposite. Perhaps the TP will be used to reshape the pattern, but not in the DO's image. I think that's a stretch, but not BTROP.

Finally, and thank you hbrianmcfarland@2756 for helping this come together in my head, I am giving greater credence to Demandred being with the Borderland Army (hereafter referred to as the B army). Bear with me if this has been stated before.

If Demandred is with that army he has accomplished two very important strategic maneuvers prior to TG starting. First, he has effectively stripped the borderlands of the bulk of their best trained/armed fighting force leaving them under-defended in the face of invading Trollocs. Second, he has the ability to, at the minimum, sabotage the B army or, at the maximum, to take control of the B army and attack the other light forces from the rear. And if the latter case is true, I think we can also assume that the 13 AS and multiple Asha'man from Taim will be on hand to assume Dreadlord roles.

I don't think Demandred would enjoy Far Madding very much, but, as stated, there are some ways around those limitations.
Matthew Smith
2781. blocksmith
thewindrose@2779

I asked this question before, relative to how can the rereads continue, from a theory/commenting standpoint, without TGS spoilers? Some pretty substantial plotlines are resolved/advanced in TGS and plotlines that were resolved between the subject book and KOD have definitely been used to answer questions.

I second your motion.
john massey
2782. subwoofer
@Blocksmith- who taut mee how to spel? I was doing the er... non Canadian version, like labor and labour, humor or humour, color or colour... yeah, that's it, that's what I did;)

The True Power- nasty stuff. Hanging out in that bunker would be like selling your soul. Do not let some lead you astray by telling you all will be okay. Same people that said Santa was invented by Coca Cola, and the Easter Bunny came from Cadbury. Darn it, I believe!

IMHO the best form of recycling is to recycle homes and cars. Not spending energy and natural resources to build new cars or new homes. This extends to bunkers. I am willing to put in some time to reno the bunker we have as opposed to moving into a bunker made by the true power. I've played this game before, not a big fan.

Woof™.
Leslie Annis
2783. Lannis
Samadai @ 2755: Sideways came and went a long time ago.

Yeah, see? We kinda sorta got back on track there... I was thinking more of the Twitchfests we've had in the past... she's not so nutty yet... on it's way, though... ;)


Sub @ 2757: Yeah, Suffa showed up last night with a pouch full of change--I forgot we'd sent her to return the empties when we balefired the mess... She'll do as an assistant, though I can't see her actually being helpful... and she'll probably try to take over the reread from Leigh... I'm not sure Leigh'd be so grateful for our present... :O

Hell, we slid past the lunatic asylum and walloped into barmy land. Popluation WoT Tor followers, now Leigh-less. = BAHAhahahahaha!

Oh, and add a few more to the APB list: Siuanfan, Aiel1219, odigity, UncrownedKing, tonka... there's a few we're missing... :/


blind @ 2765: See? Now I really want to know why there's three and a half couches... ;)


Whettingstone @ 2770: Your post here will never be useless! Feel free to jump in, even if it's debunked, we're generally a friendly bunch! :)



Re: Cads as Ilyena reborn... ::shudder::

I like the idea that there's a little piece of Ilyena in each of our three ladies (Minaviyne), hence the "three become one" line... though, as I've pointed out (@ #700) above... there's a LOT of threes that that line could entail... s'tricky... but that's why I love this series--you appreciate all the set up so much more when you reread and can truly grasp the scope of the foreshadowing. :)


@ thewindrose: I reckon one of the reasons for our little break (aside from letting Leigh play catch-up) is so that we can openly discuss tGS on the reread posts... the month off was kind of to give folks time to finish the new book... at least, that's what I gathered initially, maybe I'm just making shit up now... :O

Um... so to clarify: Yes, I think we should be able to include tGS info in our reread--it just opens a big door for our speculation and discussion! :)


EDIT: grammar
Barry T
2784. blindillusion
I concur with those that think tGS should be added into the re-reads.

Just think of all the things we'll be able to put the kibosh on so as to concentrate on the unresolved.

Lannis@2783

Well, the three couches are just your normal, every day couches. The half a couch is a result of that Vegas trip. And you know what they say about Vegas ;)
Maiane Bakroeva
2785. Isilel
Thewindrose:

Absolutely, the re-read has to include TGS spoilers, otherwise it will be gutted.
It isn't like we were able to have thematically structured discussion of new revelations here, and re-read could give us the opportunity. Not to mention that significance of many things was radically changed by new info.

Anyway, re: help to Lan and the Borderlanders - IMHO we are falling into Rand's mental trap here, thinking that _he_ must deal with everything.

The Tower owes Malkier a debt and IMHO Egwene will be sending AS for channeling support and some troops to him as soon as she contacts Nyn, which probably will be in her first chapter in ToM.

As to the Borderlander rulers, per tPoD prologue they are doing whatever it is, because the WT wasn't dealing with their concerns, whatever they are. Which, suggests to me that this is again the job for Egs and not Rand.

There were reasons for why Egs had to become Amyrlin and Rand's counterpart to some degree.

As to Rand, he has to quickly impart the OP/singing methods of growing food to his followers, which he now ought to remember from LTT's life, so that humans have a chance to survive this year.

And deal with the BT.

And figure out the whole re-imprisoning the Do thing.

Seanchan, I imagine, will be a team project involving all of the Duopotamian 5 and more to bring into the fold.
john massey
2786. subwoofer
@Isilel- exactly! There has to be a reason for so many main characters- the whole tripod thing- you know the mention that if you cut down one leg of the tripod all the others fall too. So if you kill Mat or Perrin, Rand will not succeed with his war with the Big Baddie. And yes, The Borderlanders don't have to be Rand's problem- he has bigger fish to fry. Let Ny deal with getting help to her husband. I am sure with enough braid tugging and sniffing, she can bully anyone into going to help her husband.

Ditto about the D5 dealing with the Seanchan. Rand does not have to have all the answers. It is a big world out there. Getting by with a little help...

@Blind- what do they say about Vegas? Is it the same thing they say about big feet? Probably a clown? Or what they say about taking a flying leap through a Cheerio? And I am an optimist- I don't think of it as half a couch, I think of it as a chair and a half;)

Woof™.
Rob Munnelly
2787. RobMRobM
@2772. I made a prophecy that Tor.com would break twice. I'd like to see that fulfilled.

Lsiel. Lan is not dying and agree strongly that there will be a big dose of tower help up there, including Sharina (so that Nyn's Acceptatron dream will be fulfilled).

Query whether Rand will actually be in hiding for most of ToM and whether he can successfully fuzz the bond enough to keep Avi, Alanna or anyone else from hunting him down.

I should note that I for one am disappointed by claim that TGS satisfied the Rand being blind prophecy. Fisher king piece on Moridin's board had bandages over his eyes. Rand had beginnings of vision problems at end of KoD which were ignored in TGS. Vision should have been getting worse in TGS and then culminating in nearly blind intention of blasting Seanchan at end of TGS. Didn't happen - not cool.
Barry T
2788. blindillusion
@Woof,

You know...what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. And the 4 times I've been to Vegas, interesting things have happened...you just has to leave the Strip. Granted, more interesting things happened in New Orleans. New Orleans is MOA.

Gee, I love that city....

wanders off remembering some good times in the Big Easy...
john massey
2789. subwoofer
@ Blind, yes, have been to Vegas recently... they stopped comping stuff like they did 10 yrs ago:( It's changed since, but at least there is still the next beer fest in 2010. Your night sounds like something from The Hangover. As long as the valet does not show up with keys to the Cruiser you borrowed the previous day... ;)

Yes NO. Best bud is a Sooner. Spent some spring breaks down thataway. Depending on your moral stance, good or bad things happened;) And this year, damn good football team. Breeze is lighting it up!

Er... WoT related, still pondering the big drop that we all missed on all of the chat room discussions. What could it be? Bela is the Creator? Sounds like Paladin from Dragonlance...

Things seem to be going sideways here folks...

Woof™.
Birgit
2790. birgit
What’s right by the Children of the Light? To remain abstinent (or at least I think this is a prerequisite of membership. Or at least appreciated if not necessarily required?)

Dain Bornhald is Geofram Bornhald's son. The mother is never mentioned, but they don't keep it secret that they are father and son.

Also- more to do with our lovely reread(which I hope starts up soon). Survey - I would like to be able to include tGS info. Thoughts?

Maybe we could mark spoilers so those who haven't read it yet can skip them.

Query whether Rand will actually be in hiding for most of ToM and whether he can successfully fuzz the bond enough to keep Avi, Alanna or anyone else from hunting him down.

Rand is on the warder end of the bond. Can warders mask the bond?

Before everyone starts counting comments, I mean to run my program over this thread when the reread continues.
Bouke de Boer
2791. Bouke
TGS should be up for discussion in upcoming re-reads, obviously. Otherwise, what's the use?

Abbumaru @2777
Sorry guys, offtopic, but Bouke, is that you, THE Bouke? If it is you, I had no idea you were a WoT fan. =)

I wouldn't call myself THE Bouke, but at the least an actual, non-fictional, breathing, walking, talking, WoT-Reread-following (addicted? Neh.) Bouke.


Re: the Big Clue:
Hopefully, I'll be through TSR by tonight, so I can share my first research findings with you fine people. My full-body research paper should be published in the next week or so...
Barry T
2792. blindillusion
@ Woof, You know, of the 4 times I went there I never made it to the floor of a casino...or one of the shows for that matter. As for the story of the half a couch...well, as much as I like dragging stuff out, the most amusing part of that night was actually the woman with the pocket knife.

As for the Hangover? I've heard it's amusing but I really don't watch many comedies...go figure.

Hmm, something on topic?

• Hinderstrap is a re-imagining of the old ‘Stone Soup’ folk tale.


Really? That's some re-imagining.
Maiane Bakroeva
2793. Isilel
RobM @2787:

Lan is not dying

Oh, he totally is. Only a little later than Nyn fears.

and agree strongly that there will be a big dose of tower help up there, including Sharina (so that Nyn's Acceptatron dream will be fulfilled).

Malkier is gone, IMHO, and it would take decades if not centuries to reclaim the land it stood on. Re-imprisoning of the DO will still leave his creations around for people to contend with.

BTW, I now wonder if Nyn remembering to channel in her test and almost getting stuck aren't results of BA machinations.
Sheriam prepared her for the test, after all, including the memory obfuscation weave... and I don't remember who operated the ter'angreal, if they had reasons to temper there as well.
T C
2794. Freelancer
subwoofer@2753

Oh, there you are. Bout time you rogered up and returned to your verbose self. Was beginning to wonder.


Lannis@2754

Sideways? Lemme tell ya, for some time now we've been skating on the other side of the ice. (points for identifying that reference) Reality has taken on a permanent 14.32 degree phase shift thanks to us.


blindillusion@2769

I did ask about Verin. And everything got RAFO'd. The only question related to her that Brandon answered was if Elza's Compulsion was Verin's work after Dumai's Wells, and ye said yes.


insectoid@2772

NASCAR duct tape? Bah. Try the stuff we use on carrier aircraft. It isn't called 500 mile-per-hour tape for nothing.


Seamus1602@2773

Verin was the only agent for the Light who knew the truth of Slayer, that he was an amalgam of Luc and Isam. I would assume such intel would qualify for a place in her book.


I believe that Taim's escape was Liandrin's work, just as the SGs learn in the Stone of Tear.
Wilson Grooms
2795. alreadymadwiththeGuardian
subwoofer @2757
Aes Sedai can channel within the Guardian's area. There are two areas to consider regarding Far Madding's protection. There is a smaller area that also blocks out Saidar, but this extends only as far as the city proper does. Outside and up to quite a distance, only Saidin is blocked out. So Rand is under threat if he comes to the Borderlanders alone. Frankly, if I were Rand, I'd have given them a warning shot from outside the Guardian's influence. A small bolt of lightning or a single fireball oughta convince them.

schrodinger @2764
Agreed, the vision was disturbing, but I always thought that if it was Lan's grave, Min would have known.
Ian Walker
2796. Auspicium
With regards to Rand taking a chair that doesn't belong to him: I've always believed it was simply Colavaere Saighan. I can't envision Rand doing something that would cause Elayne to be murderously angry with him (which is how Egwene specifically phases it, as in "angry enough to do murder"). Even post-compelled Morgase is smart enough to know the Dragon Reborn needs to be kept alive. Even Tuon only wants him to kneel and then use him according to prophecy. Colavaere is the only woman who is dumb enough to want Rand dead, consequences be damned. Though even as I'm writing this I realize Sevanna could count since the chair symbolized authority among the Aiel. Though again she never wanted him dead (just tame; she can't exploit the Car'a'carn's station if he's dead.)

I think this is a case of over-interpretation, but that's just my opinion.


Edit: In regards to Min's viewing of Nynaeve:

When Min viewed Lan in Book 1 she saw a baby with a sword. Later RJ said (don't have the link, sorry) that Min views things that will happen, and not past events. He was esentially answering the question of "Was Min's viewing in tEotW about Lan as a baby, or Lan's baby?" I believe she saw his future heir, so either he lives happily ever after, Nynaeve is pregnant right now and he's screwed, or they have a hot n' steamy reunion before he's offed :-(.

Obviously I'm hoping for scenario one...
Leslie Annis
2797. Lannis
Okay, re: the sideways issue... was scrolling through our petite thread here and realized, that yes, we've been sideways for a while...

I guess I'm just in denial. ;)

*twitch-ity twitch*
Wilson Grooms
2798. alreadymadwithVerin
Seamus1602 @2773

I think the biggest revelation Verin has coming is related to how to fight the Dark One. Remember her musings about how the Last Battle wasn't going to be what everyone expected...
Matthew Smith
2799. blocksmith
Freelancer@2794

Thank you for recalling Verin's awareness of Isam...I had forgotten the specific mention in the story about Verin noting that with interest.

She may also have some insight (perhaps from interaction with Forsaken?) about Fain...she did follow Rand's party and observe the Myrdraal nailed to the door.
john massey
2800. subwoofer
Verbose? Waddaya mean? I lost 10lbs in the last month with the move;)

Nope, rdo today for an energy audit, Kinetico system install, furnace estimate and a huge whopping honey-do list. Will be in and out, but rambling as per usual. Maybe even have some salient things to say. Maybe even relevant to the WoT.

As for Lan, love the guy, but I am tellin' ya folks- not everyone is gonna live to the end of this one. And I'm not talkin' about Rand kacking or Mo' or any other character dying and coming back or being mostly dead. I am talking the final death here, going through clothing and looking for loose change...

*** Gahhhhhh- epic load times here!!***

Edit Wahoo! didn't even notice- The Big Two Eight Double O Buck! Yeah baby! Sorry, will go back to normal posting now...
Woof™.
john massey
2801. subwoofer
@AMWBerelainsdressfell... yes, or have it rain flaming balls of poo...

Verin- more code to decipher. Have a feeling that her book will be like unlocking the Caramilk secret.

This mysterious thing in book 4-6 is really burning my a$$ though. What in the name of Poseidon could it be?! I'm going to either finally find these books and re-read them, go out and buy new ones- windfall for Tor- or look back on Leigh's Cliff's Notes.

Edit- Gahhhh!!! I've seen squirrels load faster than this page. We could get a team of midgets to load this faster... @@#%$$## Dark thunder cloud over head!!

Woof™.
Roger Powell
2802. forkroot
Freelancer@2720
Brandon expounded on this subject a bit more in Portland:
Brandon says that there are no scenes in TGS which he conjured out of thin air.
True.
Every scene was imagined by Robert Jordan.
Mmmm... no, on further review he backed off on this. He told us that every scene had "Robert Jordan's touch" and elaborated on that to say that either the scene was contemplated or was an extrapolation of a character arc that RJ had set in motion.

He had liberty to creatively adjust scenes for continuity, timing, pacing and interconnections to other scenes. In fact, his answer to the how much was RJ and how much was him was "It's 100% Robert Jordan, and there's a whole lot of me in there too".
All still accurate.

blindillusion@2788
You know...what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
My rewrite of the Las Vegas Motto:
The money you take to Vegas, stays in Vegas


amw@2798
No doubt there will be a lot of goodies to come from Verin's research. Perhaps this sets up for a scene where Eg meets up with Min and they can compare Verin's revelations with what Min dug out of Harid Fel's notes.

The whole thing makes me wonder, once again, about Verin's timing of her death. Given that she's had this "last hour" loophole saved up for some time, why did she choose the time that she chose to hand it all off to Egwene? Especially when (as others have noted) Eg's ascendancy was still in doubt?

The only thing I can come up with is:
1) She was under various restrictions and orders per the BA oaths she had been forced to swear
2a) She had been given (or was expecting) some order that if she carried it out would have been extremely damaging to team light
-or-
2b) She felt that her duplicity was about to be discovered by team dark

So she invoked the "loophole" while she still could, either because detection was imminent or because if she didn't she would have been compelled to do something really bad.

Sneaky, crafty, Verin! We're gonna miss you. Your soul is bathed in pure white.
Tina Murrah
2803. Tina.Murrah
I think that some of our beloved main characters have to start biting the Big One . Yeah, it’s sad and all but who is going to believe that the battle to end all battles isn't going to have a few casualties?

(Sorry Lan)

(and … Rand…??)
Wilson Grooms
2804. FirstTimeCommenter
@2790 Birgit

Sorry if this has already been answered but I was too lazy to hit refresh to see if somebody got to it before me.

Warders can mask the bond, a la Elyas and his Aes Sedai. He is technically a Warder that ditched his Aes Sedai when he went Wolf. He mentioned he learned to mask the bond so she couldn't find him.
Ron Garrison
2805. Man-0-Manetheran
Tuesday's WHAT IF post:

OK, Moiraine knew she was not going to die by falling through the red frame t'a. She passed her bond to Myrelle for safekeeping.

WHAT IF when she is rescued from the ToG, she asks for Lan's bond back? Yeah, when we all thought she was dead, we assumed it was going to be passed to Nyn, but it hasn't has it? Hmmmm.

Got to go run some errands right now... ::Ducks out::
Matthew Smith
2806. blocksmith
MOM@2805

Can you imagine that reunion...Nyn to Mo

"Oh no you dinnit!!!"

While Myrelle stands in the background nodding sagely "oh yes she did".


Following that, much slapping and braid pulling then Moiraine being turned into a horse in TAR.

But in all seriousness, no chance. Mo gets Thom. Nyn gets Lan...and they all LHEA. Unless of course some of you pessimistic commenters have your way.
Roger Powell
2807. forkroot
M-o-M@2805
I'm pretty sure that we learn from Moiraines POV that she wants Nynaeve to end up with the bond. The reason she arranges for Myrelle to be the temporary bond holder is that Nyn is still only an Accepted when arrangements need to be made.

I don't think this is due to Moiraine having a great fondness for Nynaeve -- but she DOES have a great fondness for Lan and she knows that he loves Nyn.
Ben Goodman
2808. goodben
@ Freelance 2794

The plot revolving around Taim was Joiya's story. Since she was still under the BA oaths, it couldn't have been an actual BA plot. If the BA actually freed Taim it would've been "too coincidental to appear in fiction" rather than Joiya telling the truth.
Tina Murrah
2809. Tina.Murrah
@2805. Man-0-Manetheran
Wont Moiraine want Thom as her warder when she is rescued?

@ All
Any other Gleemen Warders we know about?

::edit:: Tried to post a resposed quickly and didnt check my spelling
Wilson Grooms
2810. alreadymadwithmaskedbond
FirstTimeCommenter @2804
I was under the impression that Elyas' Aes Sedai masked the bond. Not the other way around. Can anybody find the specific text?
Henry Loose
2811. schrodinger
wait. Just wait a minute. Do you guys think...? Nah... he wouldn't... well... maybe... Is it possible that BwS is pulling a fast one on us? Hinting that there is something important that we missed in books 4-6 to distract us from something else? He's sneaky and crafty enough. Or he could just be having a huge laugh over the fact that OCD people like us think we missed something and that its driving us nuts. Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, we may have been punk'd.
Wilson Grooms
2812. violetdancer
First post from a long-time lurker. Please be gentle. I began reading your posts in May to answer some of my own questions and think you guys are great. One thing never touched on in this thread or the re-read is the story line dealing with Herid Fel.

Hadnan Kadere had a bunch of DF wagon drivers. One fell into the ter'angreal and had to be pulled out by Lan. The driver's name was Herid, and he was the first of the drivers to run off. I always assumed that he was Herid Fel, and he made contact with the Finns.

Is his problem with Min not that she is pretty, but he views something about her? And what is he doing while he's fishing?

I don't know if this is the missing clue in Books 4-6 or not, but its certainly something not discussed.

Also re: sealing/healing the DO's prison. What if it has to be done from the inside? Someone or several someones will have to make a sacrifice.
Wilson Grooms
2813. FirstTimeCommenter
@2810 AWMmaskedbond
Here is the quote:

"Rina's your Aes Sedai? But how could you run into her? The bond lets you know where she is." That nudged something in Perrin's memory, but whatever it was melted away at Elyas' reply. "A fair number can fuzz the bond, in a manner of speaking. Maybe they all can. You don't know much more than she's still alive, and I know that anyway, because I haven't gone crazy." Elyas saw the question on his face and barked a laugh. "Light, man, a sister's flesh-and-blood, too. Most are. Think about it.
Would you want somebody inside your head while you cuddled up with a likely wench? Sorry; I forgot you were married, now. No offense meant. I was surprised to hear you'd married a Sal-daean, though."


I guess that can be read both ways. The Wench comment made me think the Warder can block out the Aes Sedai
Barry T
2814. blindillusion
birgit@2790

Dain Bornhald is Geofram Bornhald's son. The mother is never mentioned, but they don't keep it secret that they are father and son.


Very true. And the funny is, I remember Elder Bornhold because I always found him just as frightening as Niall. It’s just always seemed that abstinence was the preferred stance of the Children. Don’t know where it comes from and I suppose I’m completely wrong.

Freelancer@2794

My bad. I didn’t mean to imply that you didn’t ask questions concerning Verin. I suppose I should have worded my comment @2769 better. My concern centers on hoping Egwene dissimulates the information in that book, perhaps even the key. But she appears to be focusing on the Black Ajah, which is understandable given her position. Sadly, though, we all know how much these characters enjoy hoarding information. Egwene even chastises herself for this practice. I hope she walks the walk.

Also

Try the stuff we use on carrier aircraft. It isn't called 500 mile-per-hour tape for nothing.


How about “elephant snot” and safety wire?

forkroot@2802

LMAO. That’s why I didn’t go onto the casino floor.
Sam Mickel
2815. Samadai
Awesome Verin,

Lets think about some of the things that we have heard Verin say or do.

The Great Hunt; She tells Moiraine and Siuan about the dark prophecy, and identifies one of RPM as the Dragon Reborn. She tells them that She first had a clue about what was going on at the end of the Aiel war. So, was she involved with the torture of the Amyrlin or was she assigned to keep an eye on Mo and Siuan. If so, she kept her knowledge to herself. She must have had to lie to her superiors about what they were up to, to save their lives.

Verin telling Rand not to channel in Falme. We have speculated about that but in hindsight was she saving Rand from being discovered by Ishamael to soon? She obviously knew what was going to happen there.
Wilson Grooms
2816. Dedicated
Just an odd Verin thought. Of all the darkfriends we have seen, only 3 have turned back to the light. Ingtar, Verin, and Thomas. The ony other thing we know these three have in common is that they all took the 4 month, alternate lives portal trip with Rand. That trip changed Ingtar we know from his comments in Falme. Verin and Thomas were already planning their betrayal of the DO, but I wonder what affect that trip had on them. Did it cement their will to redeem themselves as it did Ingtar?
Wilson Grooms
2817. G-bo
Seamus1602@2773 and others

I know the Taimandred theory has been debunked so I wanted to throw out a new theory (as far as this posting anyway): Taim is Moridin.

Here's the evidence:

He clearly likes black and red - Moridin's colors.
He uses the phrase "let the lord of chaos rule" - which is only said amongst the forsaken.
Dashiva (Osangar) followed his orders.
He clearly has darkfriend/forsaken tendencies.
And then there's Bashere's lack of recognition of Taim mentioned by Seamus1602@2382.

Discuss.
Sam Mickel
2818. Samadai
Thomas was not on the trip with Verin, she left him behind. One of the Aes Sedai commented about it in the chapter where they are getting on the boat to go to Tar Valon from Sheinar.

:: edit for:: Anaiya was the Aes sedai
R B
2819. MasterAlThor
This is just an update. I am feeling a little better but I am not well enough to go through the 500+ post to see what everyone has been up too.

Hopefully, I will feel better after TDay. This sucks guys.

My wife and I are victims of a drive by oinking (yes, we have swine flu) and that has put a serious crimp in our lives. Oh, did I mention that both of us also have pneumonia. Happy days.

Thankfully, our two little ones haven't caught it yet.

Well that's all I can do for now. Be well everyone. I hope to see you all soon.
Wilson Grooms
2820. alreadymadwithmasking
FirstTimeCommenter
A fair number can fuzz the bond, in a manner of speaking. Maybe they all can.
Since Elyas is speaking as if he is not included in either group(a fair number or all) despite being a Warder, then he must mean the Aes Sedai. Not the Warders themselves. For that matter Aes Sedai POV mention masking the bond so as to hide from their Warders, or hide what their Warders are doing, several times. Alanna does it when Rand and Min go at it. One of the Black sisters does it so as to prevent her non DF Warders from tracking her. In this case they are talking about the possibility that they may run into Elyas' Aes Sedai without Elyas knowing she was near.
john massey
2821. subwoofer
@M A T- damn swine! I hope you exact a measure of revenge when you get back on your feet. In the mean time, take that nasty H1N1!

@amwyoufoundoutitsnotbutter, didn't Rand say something about muting out Alanna? Or is it just Traveling from place to place making the bond seem fainter?

I dunno, I feel like Mat wondering what the deuce a bell founder is used for other than bells.

“You had best hope we can. Did you think we could just let him run about loose? Headstrong and stubborn, untrained, unprepared, maybe going mad already. Do you think we could trust to the Pattern, to his destiny, to keep him alive, like some story? This isn’t a story, he isn’t some invincible hero, and if his thread is snipped out of the Pattern, the Wheel of Time won’t notice his going, and the Creator will produce no miracles to save us: If Moiraine cannot reef his sails, he very well may get himself killed, and where are we then? Where is the world? The Dark One’s prison is failing. He will touch the world again; it is only a matter of time. If Rand al’Thor is not there to face him in the Last Battle, if the headstrong young fool gets himself killed first, the world is doomed. The War of the Power all over again, with no Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions. Then fire and shadow, forever.”- Siuan


I am surprised that no one beyond the Gholam and Fain are actually stalking the boys to make sure they don't make it to the Last Battle. I am also wondering about the reunion of Mat and the Horn. That is something on the back burner of late.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
2822. Seamus1602
Isilel@2793

I have always thought that the rebirth of Malkier would coincide with the end of the LB. If not, it's like, 'Oh, we took out the DO and the Forsaken, but, damn, too bad we still have this years long battle with Trollocs, Fades, and other shadowspawn.' Doesn't hold water to me. If they can beat the DO and his gathered forces, it's difficult to imagine that some lowly shadowspawn will be more difficult to take care of.

Freelancer@2794, AlreadyMadWithVerin@2798

Thanks for the further ideas on Verin's book. I totally forgot that Verin knew the Luc/Isam connection. But I also wonder if Verin will be able to contribute to how to fight the LB, mainly because I believe her view to be that the true LB will be fought within Rand, meaning that exterior help will really amount to nothing. He will have to come to it on his own, as he's begun to do.

Tina.Murrah@2803

Yeah, I'm not convinced that any of the 1st circle core will be dying at the LB. Rand will, of course, though he'll come back. As I've said before, Lan will live to be king of Malkier. The only somewhat main characters I can see dying are: Birgitte, Cads, Alanna, Tam, Bashere, Rhuarc, Noal/Jain, and maybe some others that I've likely missed, but none more important than those. I want to include Gawyn, but that's just wishful thinking. Egs deserves better.

Dedicated@2816

Tomas was not with Rand et all on the 4 month Portal Stone voyage, so he did not experience that. It should also be noted that Verin did not turn, as she always viewed herself as Light-spy amongst the BA. Tomas, similarly, was bonded because he wanted out (had already turned from the shadow).
T C
2823. Freelancer
forkroot@2802

Yes, I've read more recent Q&A where he did get less specific about that. So plot arcs are all Jordan, but some vignettes used to move them in the right direction might have been Sanderson creations. I do know that Hinderstap was Jordan's idea.


goodben@2808

The Tanchico story turned out to be true as well. I know, Amico was stilled, freed from the Oaths, and could speak freely. But also remember that Talene told on herself while still oathbound, albeit under the Question. Perhaps Joiya believed the duress adequate to speak. I don't know. But it's mighty coincidental that she names a plot to free Taim, who then gets freed. And we don't know what Liandrin was up to for a substantial period of time. I'm playing the Occam card on that one.


M-o-M@2805

Just to be nitpicky and accurate, Moiraine set the bond-passing in place before the Cairhien docks. She did not consciously "pass" the bond to Myrelle in the midst of the fight with Lanfear. Her bond was severed, which triggered the transfer to Myrelle.


amw@2810

Warders can "fuzz" the bond as well. Elyas does say this, but there's also Birgitte who has been told the same thing, but (because she's the same gender as her AS) she can't seem. . .to. . where's the Oosquai!!!


schrodinger@2811

Brandon is sneaky, without question. But he also has integrity. When a trick like that fails, you've lost a tremendous attribute; credibility. He wouldn't risk that.


Dedicated@2816

Verin was never, ever, a darkfriend. She was investigating Shadow activites (we aren't told precisely what, but let's say she uncovered proof of the Black), and was found out. To avoid execution, she joined up undercover. Her Warder, Tomas, she had already chosen to help out of darkfriend status. Verin does not need to be redeemed in the way you suggest. She had been serving the Light from within the Black camp for 70 years, the faulty Portal Stone trip didn't suddenly make her see the error of her ways.


MasterAlThor@2819

Just got moved to the top of my prayer list. You and your wife hang in there, and take all the vitamin C and B complex you can get your hands on.
Wilson Grooms
2824. alreadymadwithfuzzybond
Freelancer @2823
That's my point. Fuzzing the bond seems to work exclusively for channelers. Despite being told how to do it, it did not work for Birgitte nor did it work for Min.
Henry Loose
2825. schrodinger
subwoofer@2821

don't forget slayer. RPM all seem to have their specialized stalker:

Rand-Fain
Perrin-Slayer
Mat-Gholam
Barry T
2826. blindillusion
Freelancer@2823 RE: Dedicated@2816

And didn't Ingtar re-join the Light because Rand was willing to sacrifice himself for Egwene instead of seeking Glory with the Horn?

I really need to stop posting from work. It's a lot easier with the books handy.
Matthew Smith
2827. blocksmith
MAT@2819

Likely you and your wife are already doing so....

Stay in touch with your caregiver on this...the pneumonia that can result from Swine Flu has a chance of being very very dangerous. I'm not a doctor at all, just someone that has children in the high risk category of this so I am somewhat informed.

I hope you and your wife Get Well Soon.
Ben Goodman
2828. goodben
Freelancer @ 2823

Talene was discovered when she wouldn't reswear the Oaths. After that it was a matter of forcing her to forswear her BA Oaths. I don't recall if it explicitly states that they did this, but I can't imagine they would let her run around free without having done it. After that they could get whatever they wanted out of her without interference from the BA Oaths.
Wilson Grooms
2829. Seamus1602
schrodinger@2825

While Slayer does seem Perrin-specific, the last time we saw Slayer was when tried to kill Min and Rand in Far Madding. Plus, his introduction indicated that his true task was hunting down Fain, not any of Tav 3.
Wilson Grooms
2830. Dedicated
Freelancer @2823

Maybe I chose poor symantics there. I did not mean to suggest that Verin was redeemed by the portal stone. I said that she had already been planning to betray the DO. She had her notebook which shows that she had been collecting data to betray the BA for the 70 years she was in the BA. That shows where her heart has been. But at the same time, Verin was sworn to the DO by her own free will, under coercion, but she chose swearing over death. My thought here is that she was connected to the shadow, and she passed through the portal stone which had significant impacts on those who made that journey. Now that we know her story, I wondered if her experience had any similarity to Ingtars', given the obvious connection.

MasterAlThor @2819

You have my sympathy, my wife and I and my daughter all caught H1N1 at about the same time at the end of September. That was a miserable 5 days. The worst part for me was trying to make sure my 3 year old son did not get it as well. That we succeeded has to count as some kind of miracle.

Samadai @2819 at al
Thanks, I had forgotten that Thomas had been left behind on that trip. I wonder what he thought when Verin seemed to have unexpectedly disappeared for 4 months. I would guess he was near panic given his very precarious position.
Tina Murrah
2831. Tina.Murrah
@ 2822. Seamus1602

I can't see that happening. They are main characters, not reincarnations of Bruce Willis. Someone has to die. Even in the AoL team Light suffered some losses, through death or betrayal. At this point there are so many warder-bonded people all we need is one or two major deaths to start spinning everyone into chaos.

I guess we can’t all be Shakespearean or GRRM in our expectations of the Big Show (TG). Just the voice of a skeptic and a pessimist to mix in with all you “a chair and half ” people. @ subwoofer

?
Tess Laird
2832. thewindrose
So next year we have the book 13 release(looking promising on time line). So we have book 13, ToM, 13 towers of Midnight in Seanchen, and...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. I Fortell,
we will finally see the 13/13 turning done on some channelers - my guess would be Pevara and the other 5 Reds.
john massey
2833. subwoofer
@Tina-*LOL*- they really do exist. Makes great reading chairs!

As I have said before, I am gunning for the final book to be the big book of whoop a$$! Big battle with the Shadow, Lan in the Gap, Dread Lords, Battle Ajah, and all sorts of epic fighting. Something to do Homer proud. It is what keeps me going in this series, otherwise Idda pulled the pin long ago.

That and comfy underwear.

Woof™.
Tess Laird
2834. thewindrose
I need to get out of here(work). I just read Lan in the Gap, and I was picturing him at the Gap, with some frightened teenager asking him if he needed any help.
Wilson Grooms
2835. MatHornsounder
Hello evry1....
this is just my 3rd post....n ive been tryin 2 read all ur posts.....looking at them,i dont think ive much to contribut and i hope some of my theories dont sound loony(its 3am here in INDIA n im tired n sleepy)
1st of all,ive all said that d Seanchan prophecies r corrupt...and i think someone here confirmed it
Also hw could Taim live for 15 years without the taint having any effect on him???
Rand got affected quite early
Maybe taim has a link 2 the DO
also the black sisters did say dat some of them were gonna free Taim in TDR
I also think that Rand might use his Aiel and legion of dragon along with MAT's military prowess to strike at Shayol gul while Lan and d borderlander's occupy the DO at tarwin's gap..
i also think rand may send some Ashaman to help LAN
(probably Narishma)
And Nynaeve might'v been cryin on RAND'S GRAVE after TG??what say
also i think Cads needs to teach the ASHAMAN laughter(d way she indirectly taught Rand)
also can someone tell me what RAFO means???
*Yawn* m really sleepy here
N I REALLY HOPE DAT U GUYS DONT FIND MY THEORIES LOONY!!
Robert Phelps
2836. Seamus1602
Tina.Murrah@2831

Is Lan the sole point of contention here? As I've stated previously, I believe that Malkier will be reborn and that they will have their king in Al'lan Mandragoran (also fulfilling Min's 'baby with sword' viewing by making babies with Nyn).

People I don't believe will die, with reasons:

Rand - he'll die, but come back
Elayne/Min/Avi - they have to be alive to see Rand's funeral bier off (per 3 women with boat viewing)
Mat - no real reason other than 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'; that becomes strange if he has to die in the process, as well
Perrin - needs to become Wolf King of Saldea
Lan - needs to have baby, Malkier needs king
Nyn - needs to have baby
Moiraine - already died once, needs to marry Thom
Thom - needs to marry Mo

I guess Egwene could die, especially if channeling ends (my reason for her ongoing existence would be related to the WT and the 1000+ novices she's gathered; if channeling ends, those become moot points)

I do think you've hit on something with the idea of betrayal, which I would think we'll see some of from our 2nd circle core and other outlying characters (poss. Bashere, Aiel WOs, AS). I also believe that warder-bonded deaths will occur (poss. Alanna, Birgitte, AshaWarders, AesWarders)

I understand that deaths will seem to be more and more inevitable approaching and during TG, the assorted prophecies and whatnot seem to indicate quite a bit happening for our characters post-TG. Now, if you wanted to talk about people dying post-TG (in Nicola's prophesied ongoing battle with the Seanchan), I could be more on board. But that thought would mean to me that TG happens, at the latest, halfway through AMoL, which is tough for me to wrap my head around.
Tina Murrah
2837. Tina.Murrah
@ 2835. MatHornsounder

I don't think Taim was going around balefiring Forsaken for 15 years, I think he was like lighting candles and stuff, I suspect thats one of the reason that Rand was affected by the taint much faster.

And whats with all the CAPS dude?
Tina Murrah
2838. Tina.Murrah
@ Seamus
I'm not arguing any of your points, I just think it’s unrealistic to have them all live.
...except for maybe the Lan comment, last I checked the dad only have to live up to the conception, not the birth... and if Nyn has a son Malkier does have a future King.

Can’t we off Faile too?
Wilson Grooms
2839. little minion
FirstTimeCommenter@2444:

No, we haven't seen proof that Sarene (the White) is BA.

Get well soon MasterAlThor!
Noneo Yourbusiness
2840. Longtimefan
Holy Canollis! 2840 comments. That is some comment page. I have fallen behind since the reports from the Portland booksigning by Samdi. (nice report).

I suppose this will get to 3000 by December 1st.
Wilson Grooms
2841. Dedicated
MatHornsounder @2835

RAFO - Read And Find Out

It was the standard answer RJ gave to questions that would reveal to much.

In other words, Team Jordan is not going to tell anyone the answer.
Don Barkauskas
2842. bad_platypus
alreadymadwithfuzzybond @2824:
Freelancer @2823
That's my point. Fuzzing the bond seems to work exclusively for channelers. Despite being told how to do it, it did not work for Birgitte nor did it work for Min.
IIRC, it was Min who told Birgitte about fuzzing the bond, saying something like "It didn't work for me but maybe it will for you." Other than that, I don't think we've ever seen a "traditional" Warder try to fuzz the bond.

Now, have we seen any channeling Warders attempt to fuzz the bond? I don't believe Rand has, and I don't believe Logain's AS have. Have we seen a POV from any other channeling Warder?

I read the quote in 2813 as AMW does---that Elyas is saying the AS can do it, not the Warder. In other words, from the evidence it looks like only channelers can mask the bond; the question is if only the bondholder can mask it or if the bondee can as well, assuming the bondee is a channeler.
T C
2843. Freelancer
amw@2824

I understand, but realize that both Birgitte and Min have unique situations in their bonds, which alters the behavior.

- Birgitte is a lady bonded to a lady, which as we've seen has caused their female cycles to synchronize, and gives that unfortunate positive feedback loop for their emotions.

- Min (and Aviendha) are joined in a 4-part bond, which was woven with saidar. Technically, Elayne bonded Rand as warder, and included Min and Aviendha on her side of the bond, which grants them the ability to blank it just as a sister could. But with the three of them sharing in one side of the bond, they can't blank out Elayne's sensations, only Rand's. That's why they needed the O_osquai.

I'll hunt some when I'm at home, but I believe there's also a clearly stated case of a Warder hiding from his AS by blanking the bond.


blindillusion@2826

When Ingtar confessed to Rand, his motivation for turning to the shadow was an utterly defeated spirit. The Blight advancing, shadowspawn attacking, and the Sheinarans, seemingly alone, holding the line. He couldn't see a chance of victory, and so was pulled to the shadow. In Falme, he was moved by Rand's willingness to risk himself for Egwene. He remembered his why, if you will, that the struggle agsinst evil, even if defeat is the result, is worthy of the effort. He repented, and chose an honorable end.


MatHornSounder@2835

Taim is not as old as Rand believes. That has been said by Robert Jordan. At Winter's Heart, he is about 28 years old. Unless he began channeling much younger than is common for men, it hasn't been much above 8 or 9 years. Still quite a time for avoiding madness, this is true. Still a straw to add to so many others (knows how to test men, knows several destructive weaves, wasn't immediately recognized by Bashere, recites "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", refers to "so called" Aiel, etc.), which makes a significant pile indicating that he has always been much more than he seems. But not one of the known forsaken.


Sarene is not Black. Of the 5 TAS who were captured at Dumai's Wells and treated as da'tsang, only Elza was a darkfriend. There is a scene with a POV from each, sometime after they have sworn to Rand. Elza is the one who is shown realizing that Rand must remain alive in order to face the "Great Lord", and lose.
Wilson Grooms
2845. Rukaiya
Random question here . . . if Rand starts getting saa, would there be any good guys who might guess what it means? It'd be neat if he did have them before a major battle with a Forsaken, just to see his or her reaction.
john massey
2846. subwoofer
@Free- very true about Ingtar. It is very profound when people lose hope. It effects an individual down to their core. Ingtar was a raised Borderlander, a "no mercy to the Shadow" kind of guy. It has to be year upon year upon year of build up of defeat to alter him. As Jahar Narishma has said, Borderlanders live to defend. I think that is why I identify with them more so than any other characters.

Aiel are awesome, and it would be nice to shoot lightening out of every orifice but at the end of the day I prefer the everyman who still fights when they don't have special powers or abilities. I like people who stand up for others and what they believe in and are still, at the end of the day, normal. And I am a big fan of last stands. RJ gets this and writes it very well. Winning against the odds.

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
2847. alreadymadwithfuzzybonds
Freelancer @2843
IIRC Min felt Rand's emotions as well. She described it as like wildfire. And Elza was not the only BA among those sworn after Dumai's wells. There was another one that Elza was able to identify.
lanyo lanyo
2848. lanyo
No. All our "good guys" have to live. As many of you point out, this isn't GRRM. I will be super unhappy if more than a few tokens die. I've been reading for more than a decade, I love these guys, I refuse for them to not triumph AND live happily ever after.

And to the book covers, you should do what I do, and hang out with what I call the illiterati. The people I know either do not read more than magazines, or they read romance novels. Either way, they're in no position whatsoever to judge my books.
Robert Phelps
2849. Seamus1602
Freelancer@2843

Per my understanding of the Elayne/Avi/Min bond, both Avi and Elayne create identical bonds that they then share with Min. During the bonding, Elayne says that Avi creates the exact same weave as Elayne, and lays it over what Elayne has already created.

"As soon as the weaves were in place, she passed the lead of the circle of two to Aviendha. The weaves already made remained, and Aviendha immediately wove identical weaves around Elayne, and around Min again, blending that one until it was indistinguishable from Elayne’s before passing control back."

So, though Elayne went first, she and Avi should have the same exact bond, while Min's would be slightly different.
Wilson Grooms
2850. tacoma
lanyo @2848

"...illiterati."

Made my afternoon. Thank you!
Ron Garrison
2851. Man-0-Manetheran
Woofer! - 2846: "it would be nice to shoot lightening out of every orifice".

Balefire is bad, but bowelfire is just disgusting. Please don't do it in the bunker!
Dan Benjamin
2852. bandenjamin
@2843 Freelancer

IIRC Avi was able to successfully mask the bond when Min reminded her of the trick. Brigette and Min were not. Big difference there is Avi can channel while other two cannot so it would stand to reason that ability to channel would be part of it.
Jacy Clark
2853. Amalisa
I have a bad habit, when I've been gone for a couple of days, to start at the bottom of the posts and read "up" until I get to the last one I remember. (I'm also one of those sicko's who will read the end of a book first. I know, I know...)

So, en ma fin est mon commencement. (Sorry. Just finished Margaret George's excellent Mary, Queen of Scotland and the Isles.)

Freelancer@2843

I'll hunt some when I'm at home, but I believe there's also a clearly stated case of a Warder hiding from his AS by blanking the bond.


That would be Elyas.

And, yes, Min did refer to Rand's feelings as a raging wildfire, and speculated on whether or not she was able to engender those same feelings in him when they were together.

There will be more, I'm sure...
john massey
2854. subwoofer
@Man-O, I am putting in the sweat equity to reno the bunker, plus ponying up for the new hot tub and the LED TV. C'mon, join in, its only natural.

Woof™.
Thomas Keith
2855. insectoid
Seamus @2774: I'm not convinced about Chrome yet; it loads this thread in about the same time so far. Also, it doesn't refresh to the point on the page where I had it. :|

R.Fife @2778: Ummm. That's really scary, man. You're not gonna find me going in that thing (if it exists).

RobM² @2787 re: Tor.com: Don't worry...it will. ;)

Free @2794: Your "phase-shift" idea sounds loads better than my "string theory" @2772. Re: 500-MPH tape: That's what I meant; I couldn't think of what to call it because I was a zombie. Re: Verin knowing about Slayer: Good point.

Sub @2801 re: load time: Squirrels load...what? Nuts?

Blind @2814: Oh yeah..."elephant snot" is great!!

M A T @2819: Sorry to hear that. Get well soon!

Man-O @2851 re: bowelfire: LOL!
Henry Loose
2856. schrodinger
I'll pony up the money for the pantry and fridge (I was going to bring a music player, but knowing that we have such diverse tastes in music, THAT argument would distract from our discussions of WoT). Ummmm... Tor.com.... have we finally broke you? my screen is all weird, and in such a raw format... the pattern is breaking.
Tess Laird
2857. thewindrose
schrodinger - Did you just mention a pantry? Maybe we should forget about having a pantry, someone might go in search of it and disappear forever...
Wilson Grooms
2858. alreadymadwithda'tsang
Freelancer @2843

23 Tower Aes Sedai were captured at Dumai's Wells and made da'tsang. 5 were the first who begged to be allowed to swear fealty to Rand (including Elza). There are at least two more among the 23 that are Black: Fera and Nalaene. Both were still in Cairhien with the Wise Ones last we heard. We don't know if any of the others are Black, though it seems unlikely.
john massey
2859. subwoofer
@Schrodinger- can you say karaoke?

Something wrong with nuts? Some of my best friends are nuts. I married a nut...

Woof™.
Sam Mickel
2860. Samadai
Subwoofer
I don't think there is enough alcohol in the bunker to convince me karaoke is a good idea
Henry Loose
2861. schrodinger
thewindrose@2857

its the perfect trap then: Asmo's killer will feel comfortable in that setting and use it, all we have to do is set up video cameras to find out whodunit.

(anyone feel like sacrificing themselves for the greater good? anyone? ::looks around:: *snorts* hmph...)
john massey
2862. subwoofer
Nobody said karaoke was a good idea, just something to do. I'd suggest bungee jumping, but we are in a bunker, so karaoke it is... Was thinking about Risk, but that takes forever. Maybe Guitar Hero, maybe Rock Band, Ooh, ooh! I think there is singing in that. I sing like Siuan rides a horse- or I sing a little hoarse- heh- but still, let 'er rip.

Any real food in this "pantry"? Like my old buddy Jack Burton used to say, "what the hell".

Woof™.
Barry T
2863. blindillusion
schrodinger@2861

Well, there's always Elaida...
T C
2864. Freelancer
Hey, Karaoke is the stuff. You got "Lido" on that rig? How about "Under the Boardwalk"? Wait, wait, I got it, "Unchained Melody".

Yeah, I'm old, so what?


insectoid@2855

No, the string idea works fine, but only within a universe of 10 dimensions. Three concurrent/congruent sets of 3 physical dimensions, and time, which is shared by two of the three sets.


amw@2858

Yes, I was specifying from among the da'tsang which were the first five to swear, Elza and Sarene among them.


Ahh, I found it. Thank you Leigh!
“You fool!” Ingtar snapped. “We have what we came for. The Horn of Valere. The hope of salvation. What can one girl count, even if you love her, alongside the Horn, and what it stands for?”

“The Dark One can have the Horn for all I care! What does finding the Horn count if I abandon Egwene to this? If I did that, the Horn couldn’t save me. The Creator couldn’t save me. I would damn myself.”

Ingtar stared at him, his face unreadable. “You mean that exactly, don’t you?”

That's when Ingtar realizes that recapturing the Horn won't redeem him from his choice of the shadow, that it must be from within himself, not for any thought of glory, but one pure thought of choosing the right.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..."
Titus 3:5a
Robert Phelps
2865. Seamus1602
Freelancer@2864

Was gonna say I'd get up there and belt Lido with you, but I was thinking Lodi by CCR. If that's what you meant, CCR ain't just for old folks! If not, please educate me on my error.
john massey
2866. subwoofer
Well, if we are talkin' Boz Scaggs, then sure, one for the road- Lido. But I was thinking more like Lola... maybe we can swap Lola for Fortuona or Selucia. I dunno, when I get going on Bourbon, the singing just comes natural like. If anyone has ever gone to a Karaoke Bar, most of the singers have liquid courage going for them.

Woof™.
Thomas Keith
2867. insectoid
Free @2864 re: string theory: Say Whaaaaat? ;)

(I actually don't understand string theory. Didn't really understand Stephen Hawking's books, either.)

I think the Seven Spokes WoT chronology loads faster than this monster!
Alice A
2868. Wetlandernw
**break it, break it, break it**

Who, me? Just stopping in to throw a couple of darts regarding some stuff up north there... I read it sometime this afternoon anyway.

@Whoever was talking about Min's vision: she saw Nynaeve weeping over a corpse, not a grave. This could be significant, if it's the event that leads to her Healing death. For that matter, it could be significant for several other reasons. Anyway.

@Whoever was talking about how the True Power rips the Pattern and therefore couldn't be used to seal the DO's prison... Said prison is outside the Pattern:
The Creator imprisoned the Dark One outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation.
If this is true, and I think we can assume so, then it's possible that using the TP to seal the prison would not affect the Pattern at all. Not saying it will happen, just that there's a mighty big loophole in the argument.

I have to admit I'm a little disappointed with the sword = Justice resolution. Partly I just didn't particularly like the idea; more, I'd rather have found out via the story, somehow. Oh well.

If you want any more opinions on whether characters will die by the end... I personally think that a lot (not ALL, though!) of secondary characters that we really like will die in the process of TG, dealing with the remaining Forsaken, cleaning up the Shadowspawn, and fixing whatever Egwene finds in Verin's book. So I'm betting several of the favorite Aiel will go, along with large numbers of unnamed ones. Asha'man - more of the good ones will die, and hopefully LOTs of the bad ones. AS - yup, just like the Asha'man. Kin, maybe; Windfinders/Sea Folk, maybe; some TR folks, probably; Seanchan, probably about half the ones we've actually met along with large numbers unnamed; and so on.

Main characters? I don't think we'll lose many. Rand I'm not entirely sure about; he may "go into the West" somehow. Mat & Perrin live, along with their wives. Egwene lives; I suspect Gawyn may die defending her. Nynaeve lives, and I sure hope Lan lives with her; I'd like to see her Acceptatron experience be real. However, Min's viewing of the baby with the sword might just mean that their baby will be crowned king of Malkier because his father died at Tarwin's Gap. (Or, more likely, later, since I can't really see wiping him out that soon. Not good narrative play.) Elayne lives, to rule Andor for several hundred years. If Gawyn dies, she won't have a First Prince of the Sword, but maybe Rand can do that. ;) Aviendha & Min live, I think, but I have no idea where they'll end up.

Seriously, in spite of what some folks **coughIsilelcough** ;) would like to see, I really think all the first-tier players will live. Not "happily ever after", because they'll have lost so many friends and comrades, but I think they'll survive. If nothing else, there's no real reason that those 8 or 10 people shouldn't survive. For one thing, it's a work of fiction and is not required to reflect RL statistics; for another, even RL is pretty random: one whole group can survive while another group loses 3/4 of its members.
Wilson Grooms
2869. Silvertip
OK, I have it:

Boz Scaggs killed Asmodean.

S
T C
2870. Freelancer
Seamus1602@2865

Heh, Lodi. CCR is the sort of group I'd rather not subject to karaoke. Almost sacrilege. I would have once said the same about the Righteous Bros., but once that song was used in Ghost, well, it just isn't the same. You could say it lost that lovin' feelin'.


subwoofer@2866

Now, while I do believe that Manilow and karaoke were made for each other, umm, Lola? ::eyeroll:: How about a couple of rock ballads by Styx; Lady and Babe...


insectoid@2867

Good, your brain hasn't been infected. Might as well be a pod once you get superstring theory. Nobody asked about the 14.32 degrees, I'm saddened.


Silvertip@2869

Don't you mean video killed the radio star?

Accusin' the Boz? That's Lowdown.


Wetlandernw@2868

Oh, a WoT-related topic. Good. Ahem...
Brandon did say he gets to play the Grim Reaper for the final books, and many heads will roll. There are so many that should have assumed room temperature before Verin, it seems we can take that as a sign of things to come. However...

The characters who survive the end of the story:

Perrin/Faile
Mat/Tuon
Egwene/Gawyn
Nynaeve/Lan
Minaviyne & babies
Moiraine/Thom
Rhuarc/Amys/Lian
Logain
Morgase
Alliandre
Juilin/Amathera
Bayle/Leilwin
Sharina
Elaida

Oh yeah, and Rand.

Everyone else is fair game.
Bouke de Boer
2871. Bouke
violetdancer waaaaaay back @2812:
I'm not sure, but I always thought Herid Fel was an older guy. I don't think the ages of both Herids match...
Could be wrong, though. I can't recall any descriptions of both.

Re: masking the bond, IMO this is something both Warders and AS are able to do. Maybe AS are more proficient at it, because they already know the no-sweat trick.
Also, Min and Birgitte have trouble concentrating enough because of the intensity of the emotions that they are experiencing at that point... Hence copious amounts of oosquai.

Re: character deaths. At first glance, I would like to see all major characters survive the TG-show, because we've been with them for so long now (totally irrational, I know).
But then, if some of them have to kick the bucket, then I could live with an exit a la Verin, which is totally MOA.
I can see the point that logically / statistically speaking some of Team Light will have to pay the proverbial butcher, but it just doesn't seem fair. Not to them, for their effort during 12+ books, and certainly not to us, the longtime fans. Who would want to see a loved one die? Ah, but then again:
Reality's got nothing to do with it, people, it's fiction! (Just wanted to pop that one in, but since I am also one of a selected few who stick with it for 2870+ posts: who am I to speak?)
Thomas Keith
2872. insectoid
Free @2870: Okay, then I guess I'll ask: what does 14.32 degrees refer to?

Those that live: You left out Siuan/Gareth!

I suppose the only reason Elaida has to remain alive is so she can clean the bunker? ;)
Kurt Lorey
2873. Shimrod
Freelancer, the (ex)warder who masks the bond with his Aes Sedai is Elyas Machera.

Wetlandernw, where did I miss that Rand's new sword is absolutely confirmed to be Justice??
Tricia Irish
2874. Tektonica
I had a dream about the old scene where Talmanes is wandering around Murandy building an army for King Roedran, so I did my own wandering around The 13th D and Dragonmount and found this stuff:

King Roedran of Murandy hires Talmanes to build his army, TPOD, Ch. 18, also WH, Ch.9 (This while Mat is off in Ebou Dar with Elayne and Nynaeve.)

The Band finishes the job for Roedran, KOD, Ch.25. (And was well paid for it...a years wages.)

A spy for Roedran is found by Renee Harfor in the Palace in Andor, COT, Ch. 14.

Tylin & Suroth return to Ebou Dar when it's reported that an army has disappeared in Murandy, WH. Ch 31.

A trader, Azereas, tells Rand that Roedran is building an army in Murandy and it's too unsettled to trade there, WH, Ch.32

The Seanchan leave an army on the border in the Molvaine Gap to protect against an attack from Murandy, KOD, Ch.11 and 27.

This doesn't seem to get mentioned much again, but something made me wonder what's going on here? Seems like a loose end.

King Roedran isn't mentioned much either, so this might be totally irrelevant, but I'd like to know who's commanding this army? (Demandred, maybeeeeee?)

And what has happened to it? There seem to be armies everywhere.

Anybody have any ideas on this?

OK...back to searching for Big Clue hints in 4-6 in the Seanchan POV.....I really don't like them very much.....
Tricia Irish
2875. Tektonica
And Happy Thanksgiving All...

Turkey and Pumpkin pie for the new bunker!

Will Elaida serve?
Barry T
2876. blindillusion
Tektonica@2874

I'm one of those people leaning towards Demandred either being the mind behind the Murandy army/nation (perhaps masquerading as Kind Roedran), or he's with the Borderland Armies in Far Madding.

And Elaida serve? I say let her work the coat-check counter. Sure, she might steal the change out of your pockets, but I cannot picture her knowing how to maneuver around a table.

Hmm. Roedran...Theoden of Rohan.... Hmm...hmm. Wonder if there's a Wormtongue in Roedran's Court?

Oh well, probably been thought of before.
Barry T
2877. blindillusion
Shimrod@2873

He (Elyas) is nervous about the Aes Sedai. He can feel that his Aes Sedai, Rina, is still alive. Most Aes Sedai will free their Warder if he really wants to go, but Elyas ran away. He describes how an Aes Sedai can "fuzz" the Warder bond so that all he can tell is that she is still alive.

This is taken from the Encyclopaedia WOT.

Ref ~ tPoD Chapter 10 Summary
Bouke de Boer
2878. Bouke
Shimrod @2873: The sword is Justice, check @2766.

Tektonica @2874: Nice summary of Roedran! It does have merit, but I'm betting on the following (looney??) theory: Demandred is in Shara, whilst acting at the BT through Taiminion.


Aaaaand I'm starving, where's that waiter? Suffa! Suffa! ... She's going to have to be punished again, that bad, bad damane!
john massey
2879. subwoofer
Dang Free, you're like a music snob or something;)... just picture if you will a bunch of carefree people in the bunker, half cut, singing something without complicated lyrics, because, from personal experience, at some point a person's ability to read and keep up to the machine is greatly reduced when all the mental faculties are not there. Lola will shortly become Yoda, Yo, Yo, Yo, Yo Yoda...

Mind you all the other...older songs are pretty easy to belt out, so let 'er rip. Hopefully you can do the Righteous Brother's justice, 'cause I couldn't hit that pitch with a 2x10. I'm gonna rock the mic with "desperado" so nyah, then I have to slip into "with or without you" because if I have to sing let it be something I like that's easy. Unless for some odd reason, somebody wants me to make the other wolves howl.

Sorry to say, I know that BwS is not GRRM, but it will push the bounds if the Grand Poohbah of battles takes place and everyone lives. When Pervin died, I scratched my head, then Fel, then Nalesean, so yes some secondary characters will die, but some main ones too. Maybe Perrin, Manetheren went out in a blaze of glory. I don't see a few other characters getting to the end either. I won't drop names because I don't want to start a flame war but c'mon, everyone lives?

Woof™.
Robert Phelps
2880. Seamus1602
subwoofer@2879

In a 'real world' Last Battle, I doubt everyone would live.

But in a WOT Last Battle?...

I won't go through names, but it seems that all the main characters have things to do post-LB. Tough to find one main character that doesn't have a logical argument (based upon prophecy) against him/her dying.
Tricia Irish
2881. Tektonica
blindillusion@2876 and bouke@2878

Demandred in Shara, Far Madding, or Murandy with an army, and acting through Taimandred in the BT....should be one of the above!

Roedran=Theodran, nice connect.

We haven't ever seen a Roedran POV, have we? This seems like it's kind of left field, but why is it even there? And he certainly overpaid for Talmanes services, didn't he? Ummmm.
john massey
2882. subwoofer
Awww I dunno, when I hear some stuff about a guy wanting to die, book after book, death following them, laying dead flowers on a dead grave, well then, it is either melodramatic or heavy foreshadowing. Any way you slice it, big battle= carnage. If people died in the Iliad then why not here, the prophecy can fit after the fact.

Gotta run, work beckons:)

Woof™.
john massey
2883. subwoofer
Edit: Strange things are afoot at the Circle K

Woof™.
Joanne
2884. Joanne
I still think the most likely place for Demandered to be is in the BT as a person in the shadows controlling Taim.
This would be the most beneficial position for him in his alliance with Mesaana en Semirage. With Mesaana in the WT and Semirage near the Seanchen damane together they would have controlled the largest population of channelers in Randland (before things went sideways for them anyway).
Also, Mesaana and Semirage have used a similar tactic of hiding in the shadows as a person of seemingly minor importance.

Regarding the deaths,
Can we try to get Suffa to do a foretelling for us? She should be good for more than cleaning
Wilson Grooms
2885. Dedicated
Joanie @ 2884

I can see the scene now:

"Suffa - fortell for us the ones who will live and who will die"

Suffa suddenly goes stiff, eyes glazed over and she says:

Raging winds
And
Fires burning
Only the creator knows these things.
Wilson Grooms
2886. alreadymadwithRoedran
Tektonica @2881
Well Roedran did pay Talmanes a lot. But judging by how the Band retreated from the force he was able to assemble, I would say he was about to ask for a refund. And I'm not sure if Roedran himself has appeared on screen, but if he hasn't he might not need a wormtongue Demandred, he might actually be Demandred.
Barry T
2887. blindillusion
Who lives and who dies?

Open the Characters index at Encyclopaedia WOT.

Scroll through the alphabet.

73% of the Characters without last names will die in the Last Battle

8% of the Characters with last names will die.

So, that's 81% of the Characters given a name in the series that will die in the Last Battle. That should make people happy, right?

100% of the nameless Characters who die in the Last Battle will be dead by the end of the series. =)

I was going to go through picking out names, but I'm just not that bored yet...

Who stands a 101% chance of making it through the Last Battle? Why, Bela, of course.
Barry T
2888. blindillusion
AMW@2886

Well, the reason I made the connect between Roedran and Theoden of Rohan, besides the names being similar, is that perhaps Padan Fain was moonlighting in his home country between aCoS and WH before going to Toram Riatin's side.

Not likely, so I suppose this could be considered a Looney Theory.

I'm of a like mind that perhaps Demandred is Roedran. We've been told we haven't seen Demandred's alter-ego, but that doesn't mean we haven't heard of him. He's either there or with the Borderland Armies.

I don't see why he'd be in Shara. The only Forsaken we know spent time there was Graendal, right? And if his army is in Shara, wouldn't it be a little difficult to bring them across the Waste? Gateways can only be made so large. And wouldn't he need to provide a reason for running off and fighting the Westlanders?

How much would it take to convince a secluded nation to leave its seclusion?
Matthew Smith
2889. blocksmith
Freelancer@2870

So you didn't lose that loving feeling when Maverick almost got Kelly McGillis?

On the list of characters who live, I have a feeling (which usually means I am 180 degrees from right) that Elaida will redeem herself and go out kamikaze style against Dreadlord Alviarin. There would be something so complete about this that I really want it to happen.

And since music was brought up...I propose a movie list selection for the new LED set in the bunker.

My 10 Guilty Movie Pleasures in no particular order

Last of the Mohicans
Slapshot
Dumb and Dumber
Caddyshack
Empire Strikes Back
Patton
Saving Private Ryan
Kelly's Heroes
Full Metal Jacket
Midway

Happy Thanksgiving to All
Wilson Grooms
2890. alreadymadwithnaeff
blindillusion @2888
Good point about Shara. I doubt Graendal would have been able to visit there long enough to pinpoint then kidnap the ones she wanted if it was Demandred's bailiwick.

I've got a bigger question about Naeff. This is a new kid on the block and I do believe this is his first appearance. Who is he? The text simply says he was one of the first bonded. Was he bonded by an Aes Sedai? This does not agree with the restriction that Aes Sedai may only bond Soldiers and Dedicated. Only the Jahar etal were bonded as full Asha'man. Furthermore the only Aes Sedai allowed to bond them would have been of Egwene's faction and I do not see why he would have been allowed to remain with Rand if that was so. The other possibility is that he was one of Logain's faction who bonded an Aes Sedai. Though I wonder why the passage would say that he was one of the first bonded, rather than he was one of the first to bond.
Don Barkauskas
2891. bad_platypus
Various@various re: Warders masking bond:

Here is the exact quote from tPoD, ch. 10:
"...Warders don't run off often, boy. Most Aes Sedai will free a man who wants to go---most will---and anyway, she can track you down however far you go if she decides to hunt..."
If Warders can mask the bond, then Elyas clearly doesn't know how.

And the next paragraphs are the quote that seems to be confusing people:
"Rina's your Aes Sedai? But how could you run into her? The bond lets you know where she is." That nudged something in Perrin's memory, but whatever it was melted away at Elyas' reply.

"A fair number can fuzz the bond, in a manner of speaking. Maybe they all can. You don't know much more than she's still alive, and I know that anyway, because I haven't gone crazy." Elyas saw the question on his face and barked a laugh. "Light, man, a sister's flesh-and-blood, too. Most are. Think about it. Would you want somebody inside your head while you cuddled up with a likely wench?"
The "a fair number" in the context of the whole passage has to refer to AS, not Warders. The "wench" comment is because Perrin is male, so Elyas assumes Perrin would be with a woman; the passage could be written in a gender-neutral way by replacing "a likely wench" with "someone".

Freelancer @2843:
I understand, but realize that both Birgitte and Min have unique situations in their bonds, which alters the behavior.

- Birgitte is a lady bonded to a lady, which as we've seen has caused their female cycles to synchronize, and gives that unfortunate positive feedback loop for their emotions.
From WH, when Elayne masks the bond, she "disappears from my [Birgitte's] head"; it's only when the passion starts that Birgitte has the problem with Elayne's emotions coming through. That is the result of female/female (and I would guess male/male) bonding.
- Min (and Aviendha) are joined in a 4-part bond, which was woven with saidar. Technically, Elayne bonded Rand as warder, and included Min and Aviendha on her side of the bond, which grants them the ability to blank it just as a sister could. But with the three of them sharing in one side of the bond, they can't blank out Elayne's sensations, only Rand's. That's why they needed the O_osquai.
As AMW pointed out above, Elayne and Aviendha did equivalent things during the bonding, so the only one not the same might be Min. But Min is clearly feeling Rand's feelings, not Elayne's, as she thinks that it would be interesting to see if she [Min] could engender the same passion in him. When she reminds Aviendha of the masking trick, Avi comments that she had forgotten it "with him in my head"---no mention of Elayne---and when Avi tries to mask the bond, it works. It's not conclusive, but I think it is pretty clear that Min and Avi are only having problems with Rand's side of the bond, not anything from Elayne.

Finally, in partial answer to my own question above, the scene with Toveine after Gabrelle and Logain's night is inconclusive, because while it is true that no mention is made of her trying to mask the bond (which she surely would have if she could, since the sensations were keeping her awake), she is a Red and quite likely didn't know the masking trick, since she would never have expected to take a Warder.

Summary: IMHO, the simplest explanation is the non-channelers can not mask the bond, regardless of which end of it they're on. Channeling bondholders can mask it; I'm on the fence about whether channeling Warders can mask, although I'm leaning towards "no." Same-gender bonding causes the masking to be imperfect but doesn't affect who can mask.

Aside: What does Perrin's thought "That nudged something in Perrin's memory, but whatever it was melted away at Elyas' reply." refer to?
Don Barkauskas
2892. bad_platypus
blindillusion @2887:

Who lives and who dies?

Open the Characters index at Encyclopaedia WOT.

Scroll through the alphabet.

73% of the Characters without last names will die in the Last Battle

8% of the Characters with last names will die.

So, that's 81% of the Characters given a name in the series that will die in the Last Battle. That should make people happy, right?
Ummm... by this logic, if 100% of the Characters without last names and 100% of the Characters with last names will die, then 200% of the characters will die? That's a lot of character deaths. :-)

You actually mean .73p + .08(1-p) = .08 + .65p, where p is the proportion of Characters without last names.

(Yes, I know the post was meant as a joke, but the mathematician and statistician in me just couldn't let this pass.) :-)
Barry T
2893. blindillusion
bad_platypus@2891

Aside: What does Perrin's thought "That nudged something in Perrin's memory, but whatever it was melted away at Elyas' reply." refer to?


It probably refers to how the group of Aes Sedai in LoC knew where Rand was. He wondered about that at the time.

It's either that, or he's remembering a comment Rand made about knowing where Alanna is?
Barry T
2894. blindillusion
Opps. Things are unraveling fast...

bad_platypus@2892

I just knew someone on this thread would call be on my poor math skills. I never was very good at it.
Kurt Lorey
2895. Shimrod
@2891 bad_platypus. IIRC, it wasn't Elyas talking about masking the bond, but some separate Aes Sedai discussion with Egwene or Nynaeve later on. Still, until such time as I run across it again, I'll stick with your explanation.

@2892 chatty cathy. Too funny.
Ron Garrison
2896. Man-0-Manetheran
Elaida as waitress? I don't think so. She's just the type that would spit in your food. I think I'll just have her keep my wineglass filled. ...and silenced with a gag of Air.

Last Battle: I think we are all going to be quite surprised. It will not be what we imagine.
Wilson Grooms
2897. Caerlie
Huge congrats to you Leigh, you’re witty and irreverant with a lovely way of hiding the odd cult pop culture reference in which makes me grin and feel all clever and special when I spot it.

OK. So I know I’m taking it right back to the beginning of this post but bear with me cause I’ve just finished reading it and I’m too excited!

On Monday my copy of TGS arrived on my desk courtesy of Amazon. Monday night fled from work, poured a big glass of red wine, put on some classical music and turned to the first page. Sigh. So nice to see these old friends again, friends who I realise I've known for, gulp, 16 years. By midnight Egwene was on the floor after her verbal fisticuffs with Elaida and I thought I should turn out the light. On Tuesday night no such luck, this time port and some chocolate was the accompaniment to me staying up till I’d reached the sweet end. On Wednesday i booked in an eye test, reading TGS in 12 hours will do that to a girl.

Am SO in love with WOT world again.

Think Sanderson has done a completely spiffing job. So clever to include some good old reminiscing in the POVs' of the major characters; it made me trust him as the caretaker of the series, but it also reminded me how much the characters have grown and made it clear that we’ve turned the final corner and are on the home stretch.

Adored the two main story arcs. Since Egwene admitted her toh, she’s been one of my all time favourite characters. I reckon 'cause she is one of the few, if not the only major character who had the luxury of really choosing what she wanted to do. Sure, at the beginning it was cause she was wide eyed, innocent, thought she knew everything (as every good head strong teenage girl does), and fully embraced the coolness of being able to channel. She was a kid in a sweet shop. Gimme more, and to hell with the tummy ache! BUT and this is the cool bit, pretty early on she learnt that this stuff was real and the consequences were life and death and she kept on, we saw her learn, we saw her swallow her pride cause she saw the bigger picture, we saw her do the right thing because it was right, and we saw her take risks and do wrong when she thought the ends justified the means, and then best of all we saw her put her hand up when she’d made a mistake. Now of course she’s still an RJ woman, so this sense all goes out the window when she’s dealing with men. But then every RJ woman does that, except for Birgitte and to a lesser extent Min. So you can’t blame her too much, she was written that way.

And Rand, oh Rand. This bit was genius. For most of the series I’ve just thought, “meh….for Light’s sake man, enough with the whinging and the keeping people at arms length, enough with all the self pity. I (being woman) have just wanted to shake him cause reason doesn’t seem to work. And yeah I know he’s actually been sort of going crazy and I should have a bit more sympathy, but I’ve not actually liked him enough to care. Except from Dumai’s Wells, much of his never ending hardening of character and coldness has resulted from inexperience, suspicion, prejudice or what I found to be irritating self loathing and self pity.

This time though it made sense, it really was the last straw, which made it all the more gut wrenchingly awful. In the Semirhage scene I finally GOT it. It was one of those self realisation moments that Leigh has so eloquently talked about in her re-read blog. But this was a self realisation moment of a reeeeeally bad kind. So instead of squealing “Yay!” I found myself wailing “ No Rand, don’t go there”. Later when he talked to Nynaeve I could see that in his mind it was perfectly justified and that if that had happened to me I might do the same thing.

Which made the ending triple sweet and splendid. Pure genius to have this grand realisation emerge from thought. The setting? On top of Dragonmount - Fabulous! The cast? Just Rand ON HIS OWN. The method? Having a good old Rodin moment - Ace! Finally time to think, away from all the people trying to lead you by the nose, trick you, convince you and love you. Genius. So when LTT was gone and Rand laughed I got a big old grin on my face and thought wooooooah Rand’s back, hell he’s not even back he’s finally arrived, he did it all on his own and he’s going to be able to kick some serious arse at TGI TG time.

Elaida’s Defeat – yep did find it a bit of anti climax, but am sure we ain’t seen the last of her. I’m hoping for an OMG POV from her when we next see the Seanchan, maybe Fortuona will take the leash for a little while. Empress and former Amyrilin Seat showdown? Tres cool.

The Big Bad Black Ajah Reveal? Sadly another anti climax. Not the Verin bit, that was completely Awesome, but the exposure, capture and executions? It all felt a bit rushed. I mean for years and years we’ve been wondering who is Black? We’ve spent hours pouring over the books, trying to work it out, we finally do and we don’t get a chance to to enjoy and linger over their collective “oh shit” moment? That kinda sucked lemons. But again am hoping for that opp in the remaining books. Now i'll have to re-read it properly, this time with glasses!
T C
2898. Freelancer
Amalisa@2852 & Shimrod@2873

No, this discussion has already been had. Thanks to FirstTimeCommenter@2813 for making the quote handy:
"Rina's your Aes Sedai? But how could you run into her? The bond lets you know where she is."
That nudged something in Perrin's memory, but whatever it was melted away at Elyas' reply. "A fair number can fuzz the bond, in a manner of speaking. Maybe they all can. You don't know much more than she's still alive, and I know that anyway, because I haven't gone crazy."
Elyas saw the question on his face and barked a laugh. "Light, man, a sister's flesh-and-blood, too. Most are. Think about it. Would you want somebody inside your head while you cuddled up with a likely wench? Sorry; I forgot you were married, now. No offense meant. I was surprised to hear you'd married a Saldaean, though."


So, Elyas' words strongly suggest that the fuzzing is something only the Aes Sedai can do, and where he says "Maybe they all can", brings with it the implication that maybe not all can. So I was initially wrong about that. Also, with the additional debate on the subject, it seems logical to conclude the following:

~ A channeler on the "control" side of a Warder bond can mask it. Existing Aes Sedai evidence, plus Aviendha's success at masking the Rand/Elayne consummation support this.

~ A non-channeler on the "control" side of a Warder bond cannot mask it. Granted, Min is the only extant case of this, so she is a sample of 1, but there it is.

~ The person on the "controlled" side of a Warder bond being able to mask it is still in question.

~ A person on the "controlled" side of a Warder bond of the same gender as the "control" side cannot mask the bond. Once again, with a sample size of Birgitte, she cannot even control the emotions feedback between the two.

And yet, I was thinking there was a scene where a sister says she hadn't been aware of her warder's whereabouts for a time, then suddenly he is coming toward her. Or else I've sufficiently fuzzed my memory that I've scrambled the scene in my head.


insectoid@2872

I'm glad you asked. A quarter-wave (90 degrees of a circle) divided by 2Pi produces this arc (14.32 degrees). The length of the chord across this arc has very interesting properties concerning energy transmission. Now, the question is, are you glad you asked?

And you're right, I left out Siuan & Gareth. Former Amyrlin Seat, deposed, stilled, weakly Healed, working hard at being the best Number One she can. Former Andoran Captain-General, named among the Great Captains, kicked to the curb unwanted, stumbles into rebellion, organizes a siege of the White Tower, plays the Game like few alive, new Warder to his finally admitted love interest. What else is there for them?

Blaze of Glory, that's what. Bards will compose epics.


subwoofer@2879

Snob? Just didn't take you for a Manilow man. In case you hadn't noticed, one subtopic upon which I never engage here is that of beverages. Stopped drinking when I turned 21. So that never impairs my lyric management. Other inherent issues might, but the level is consistent. And hey, Desperado works. How about Colour My World? Misty?


blocksmith@2889

Don't get me started on that movie. I worked in the same hangar when they were making life miserable for us, and what did we get? Half-price tickets to the premiere. That's right, not freebies for the squids, half-price. Bah. Best part of the whole movie was the opening sequence, with the steaming flight deck, catapult crews and aircraft final-checkers up close and personal during launches. Scared my wife silly, as I was a final-checker at the time.

Give me Twelve O'Clock High anytime. For my other movie submissions:

The Sting
The Dirty Dozen
Casablanca
K-Pax
Cool Hand Luke
Braveheart
V for Vendetta
Bull Durham
Sabrina (Bogart/Holden/Hepburn 1954)


Caerlie@2897

Hi! And also, wow.
Don Barkauskas
2899. bad_platypus
Freelancer @2898:
And yet, I was thinking there was a scene where a sister says she hadn't been aware of her warder's whereabouts for a time, then suddenly he is coming toward her. Or else I've sufficiently fuzzed my memory that I've scrambled the scene in my head.
That was one of the BA, and the implication was that she had been masking the bond and then deliberately unmasked it so that her Warder could find her. Don't remember which book it happened in, though.
Henry Loose
2900. schrodinger
my movie submissions for the bunker:

Godfather I
Godfather II
Godfather III
Donnie Darko
Flash Gordon
The Usual Suspects
Soylent Green
Mad Max 2
Fight Club
A Beautiful Mind


just started re-reading EoTW and with all the new information in TGS, some stuff seems different when I go back.

just 100 posts to go before we've roughly gone from the end of the breaking to TG. I think that we'll get there tomorrow.
Rob Munnelly
2901. RobMRobM
Not a complete list but a fun mix of high and low culture

Godfather I and II (Shro - please don't tell me you picked III - aaaarrrrgggghhhhhhh)
Witness for the Prosecution
Dr. Strangelove
Manchurian Candidate (Angela Landsbury version)
Chinatown!!
Zulu
Italian Job
Jean De Florette
Seven Samurai
Young Frankenstein
Life of Brian
Wilson Grooms
2902. alreadymadwithfuzzywarder
bad_platypus @2899
Actually, I think that was Sarene. She commented that her Warder was coming closer. She had not been masking the bond. They were the dragonsworn Aes Sedai and had left their Warders behind in Cairhien to come with Cads to Far Madding. All of the Aes Sedai who left their Warders in Carhien at this point agreed that the Warders were drawing nearer.
Wilson Grooms
2903. Agrivar
Not sure if addressed previously but why could Egwene not have escaped the White Tower (had she wanted to) by simply entering T. in the flesh the same way that she moved from the Waste to Salidar when called to the Amyrlin Seat?

Would have liked the Black Tower storyline to have moved forward, even a little bit in TGS.

Ag.
Wilson Grooms
2904. alreadymadwithenteringTAR
Agrivar @2903
Egwene essentially forms a gateway to enter TAR in the flesh. Same way that Rand does. And she can't channel to do so even had she wanted to.
Richard Fife
2905. R.Fife
@2903 because she still had to weave Saidar to make the TAR and the real world the same.

Bunker needs more 80s movies.
Labyrinth
Dark Crystal
Monster Squad (cause wolfman's got nards)
Legend (original version, not Director's Cut)
Kurt Lorey
2906. Shimrod
Did anybody here go to one of the book signings and pick up a copy of the mysterious crossword puzzle that was being bandied about as a Bread & Circuses distraction?

If yes, and if you aren't visited by a Forsaken before you can digitize it and send it along, please digitize it and send it along so we can see it.

It was mentioned on Dragonmount in one of the write-ups, but the person who stated that there was a digital copy has gone missing. I suspect the influence of the Dark One.
Guillaume Bergeron
2907. Nightbaron
AMW @2902

I vaguely remember the scene Freelancer is talking about, and thought it was a group of Black Ajah, with one of them suddenly sensing her Warder coming near... so while the scene you quoted probably did happen, I don't think it's the one he meant...

I would bring my books to work so I can do proper research and quoting, but I think my manager might have an issue with it... ;)
Matthew Smith
2908. blocksmith
Caerlie@2897

Well said on so many points...nice to read even after nearly 3k posts.

Freelancer@2898

Sorry for bringing Top Gun into your thinking...I have to admit that it made me try (unsuccessful...damn eyes) to be a fighter pilot at the time, but in hindsight, I am inclined to your way of thinking.

I liked your list...10 is just way too few. No room for Eastwood (GBU, Escape from Alcatraz, Unforgiven), Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Glory, Das Boot, so many more.

The warder bond...no books with me the summary you provided jives with my recollection. Too bad Cads and the other AS never got the chance to ask Semi about Cabriana Mecendes. They may have gotten some interesting information on the warder bond. Not that I wanted to revisit that scene in any detail...the original made my skin crawl.
Matthew Smith
2909. blocksmith
I liked the others too except for Godfather III...

Man...that brings up Goodfellas and Casino. And as soon as you say Deniro...you get Taxi Driver and Raging Bull.

Relative to 80's...Fast Times at Ridgemont High and Breakfast Club have to be there.
Matthew Smith
2910. blocksmith
We could also try movies that mirror what we think will happen in TOM and MOL...for example, if you are in the "major characters better die" camp, we could screen Resevoir Dogs or The Departed.

Personally, I like the above selection of Flash Gordon for the ending...only relatively small characters and the Evil Villain (kind of) die while the main characters get the girls.
Rob Munnelly
2911. RobMRobM
@2910 - Elaida wearing the Princess Leia slave outfit....? [There's a visual for you to imagine].
Barry T
2912. blindillusion
The bunker needs some Quentin Tarantino:

Pulp Fiction
Reservoir Dogs
Kill Bill

And how about..something for a change of pace:

Momento
Dogma
Le fabuleux destin d'Amélie Poulain
S.L.C. Punk
12 Monkeys

And because they're good:

The Last Samurai
The Fifth Element
Wilson Grooms
2913. Caerlie
Freelancer - thanks for welcome
Blacksmith - jolly kind of you! Thanks!
Wilson Grooms
2914. Silvertip
@2899, 2902, 2907: I believe Nightbaron is correct and bad_platypus (is there such a thing as a good one?) was thinking of a different scene than the one with Cads et al. I want to say it's when the remaining BA from Liandrin's group are sitting in Ghealdan somewhere wondering why they haven't heard from Moghedien lately ... but damned if I can remember just where that passage was.

In terms of movies, it sounds like the new Cormac McCarthy adaptation will have a lot in common with the scenes of the Aiel migrations during/after the Breaking, but it'll be a while before it can be brought into the bunker. Also sounds a tiny bit depressing.

S
Joseph Blaidd
2915. SteelBlaidd
Whew go away for a couple of days and it takes 3 to catch up.

In other news

Sunday the 22 at 2344 the Daughter Heir of the House of Steel came into the world.


WoT tie in is that because my lovely wife gave birth completely naturally I have become very knowledgeable about labor and delivery unassisted by modern technology, so if Elayne delivers on screen and Brandon gets it wrong I'm going to have to go kick his ***. :-) Especially after it looks like RJ has done some good research on the subject.

On post
Samadai@2705

Win and Awesome, you win the thread.

MoM@2745

"Olver = Alfred E. Neuman. " Sweet some one else for my faction.

subwoofer@2753
Re:
And Rand has this really large army of well trained soldiers, far removed from the Gap and he just leaves them. I know there is the whole "box" thing going on, it just bugs me that the big one is coming and Rand isn't gathering up everyone to go meet it.

He told Hurin to tell the Borderlanders that he would gate them back home to their posts if they wanted so he's not leaving them there he's just not getting them personally.
It seems a fitting counter point to their wondering why he's playing "Risk" in the southlands instead of paying attention to the Borderlands for him to call them out for running around chasing him instead of doing their jobs.

Movies I'm bringing

The Princes Bride
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Hero
The Forbidden Kingdom (Jakie Chan & Jet Li FtW)
House of Flying Daggers
Iron Monkey
Mononoke Hime
The Radioland Murders
Clue
Pirates of The Caribbean (all of them)
The Matrix(shame they never made a sequel)
What Dreams May Come
Saints and Soldiers
The Magnificent Seven

I've got more but that sounds like a good start.
T C
2916. Freelancer
Shimrod@2906

Never heard of said puzzle.


Nightbaron@2907

You know, that might be the one I'm thinking of. However, it doesn't necessarily support my original thinking. If the Warder came much closer via Gateway, then the Aes Sedai's comment would have nothing to do with the clarity of the bond, just that while she sensed him as very distant one moment, he was much closer the next. Oh well.


blocksmith@2908

To say that there's a difference between fighter operations IRL and what you get in Top Gun is understatement raised several orders of magnitude. First and foremost, if you're flying a Tomcat and you decide to get into a furball, you've already made at least two serious mistakes. F-14 fire control radar lets you shoot at a confirmed bad guy from anywhere between 4 and 75 miles away, dependent upon weapon load. It's big, it's fast, it's powerful, but it isn't twitchy. You can't yank it around like a Falcon or a Tiger Shark. It's a stand-off interceptor, and it's advantage is hitting them before they can even confirm you're in the air. But since that would make for boring cinematography...

Agree that 10 constrains the list of movies. So, excluding titles already mentioned, I'm submitting a list for a friend...

Papillon
Stripes
All the Right Stuff
Jeremiah Johnson
The Silence of the Lambs
Leon (The Professional)
To Kill a Mockingbird
2001
The Prestige
Blade Runner (NOT the "director's cut", I ::cough:: err, my friend here wants that narration at the end)


blindillusion@2912

I was going to include Memento, quite the trippy movie. I like being made to think more than just having action tossed at me in an endless stream. Maybe I'll submit a list of worst movies, and really start a war. ::waits to see who adds THHGthG::


SteelBlaidd!!!

Good on ya, man. Here's a prayer that everyone stays healthy and happy. Your first?

Edit: Just noticed your comment about The Matrix. One word...









BULLSEYE!

Well played.
Wilson Grooms
2917. alreadymadwithborderlords
I always did figure Olver as Alfred E. Neumann reborn.

Re: borderlanders
Rand probably did the best he could with the Borderlanders. I understand the Borderlanders reluctance to meet with a potentially unstable man. However, they came close to insulting him by sending Hurin when Rand expected them to show themselves. On top of that they expected Rand to come to an obvious trap where he would be helpless to whatever it was they(and the Aes Sedai with them) had planned. Rand was right. The south of the Westlands was also a valid concern for him. But the Borderlanders had only the Blight and they had no call to leave it.
Sam Mickel
2918. Samadai
Steelblaidd,

Congratulations, that is awesome news. House Steel is in good hands.

Thanks for the good words on my story.
Sam Mickel
2919. Samadai
Hellooooooooooo,

Damn, I think I am all alone in this bunker and Elaida keeps staring at me. ::shudder:: I hope a fade pops out of nowhere and kills me soon.
Jacy Clark
2921. Amalisa
Steelblaid, your daughter is beautiful! Congratulations on this most wonderful of miracles! God's blessings on you and your family!

*weaves a Healing for Master al'Thor and his family*

Freelancer@2898

I believe this is what you are looking for - and it confirms that your assessment is right, and that I completely misread the Elyas/Perrin discussion:

Winters Heart, "A Plan Succeeds":

At times, Asne wondered how much of Eldrith's apparent vagueness was real. No one so unaware of the world around her could have survived this long. On the other hand, she had been unfocused enough to let the masking slip more than once before they reached Samara, enough for her Warder to track her...
(...stuff about Moggie, the Prophet, Amadicia...)
... What had sparked the decision to leave was the arrival of Eldrith's Kennit in the town, sure that she was a murderer, half convinced she was Black Ajah, and determined to kill her no matter the consequences to himself.


On the subject of those who will live and die... I'm in agreement with the ones who voice the hope that our beloved main characters manage to survive. But I'm beginning to have a sick feeling that the most vulnerable one may be Egwene. In some ways, Verin's sacrifice may be a foreshadowing. Egwene may find something so important, so necessary to victory that she'll consider it worth it to "Sheathe the Sword"...

As for bunker movies... ah... well... Alfred Hitchcock (Notorious and To Catch a Thief, in particular), Mel Brooks, LotR, most of the Star Trek franchise, Star Wars - A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, Bull Durham, Young Frankenstein, Blazing Saddles, Sleepless in Seattle, The Big Chill, Patton, To Kill a Mockingbird (probably the most faithful adaptation of a book ever filmed) the James Bond movies with Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan, Three Days of the Condor, All the President's Men, just about anything having to do with the legends of King Arthur or Robin Hood, Westerns - the old classics (most especially with John Wayne), and the more recent ones like Silverado, Dances With Wolves, Tombstone, Quigley Down Under, anything with Cary Grant, Katharine Hepburn, Spencer Tracy, John Wayne, Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall, Jimmy Stewart, Sean Connery...

I'm about to go into my annual holiday baking binge... requests?
Tess Laird
2922. thewindrose
Congradulations House SteelBlaidd, what a sweet and beautiful Daughter Heir. Thank you for sharing with us:)

Oh, and I believe that subwoofer knows The Princess Bride by heart.
Sam Mickel
2923. Samadai
I am not sure that I will have web access tomorrow, so Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it. Happy Thursday to those who don't.
john massey
2924. subwoofer
@Steelblaidd- beautiful child! Awesome picture! Is she yours? :P

@Free- Manilow- where the deuce did that come from? By following the link, it goes to The Kinks song Lola from back when. Dude, take it easy:)

Well, if we are gonna compile movie lists I'll toss mine in:

The Quiet Man
300
Big Trouble in Little China
The Goonies
Shoulin Soccer
Raiders awesome.
Silverado
Dr. No
er Monsters
Lost Boys

@Samadai 2705- schmuck that I am I had no idea that was free style. Well done! I was wailing through sites trying to see where that quote came from. Duh. I had a Golden Retriever moment.

Woof™.
Julian Augustus
2925. Alisonwonderland
bad_platipus@2891:
Aside: What does Perrin's thought "That nudged something in Perrin's memory, but whatever it was melted away at Elyas' reply." refer to?

When Rand was kidnapped by the Tower AS and Perrin went to the rescue, they met the Salidar AS. First, they asked Perrin what he was doing there when the DR was a few days north. Perrin answered that the Tower AS has kidnapped Rand, and he (Perrin) was in pursuit of the kidnappers. Alanna then burst out something to the effect that, "see, I told you he (Rand) was injured". The AS then told Perrin that Alanna could locate Rand. Perrin wondered about how Alanna could do that.

Later, when Rand was rescued, Perrin noted that Rand could point out Alanna without even looking in her direction. Again, something tickled in his mind but he couldn't connect the dots then. He was reminded of the Rand-Alanna issue in the scene you quoted, when Elyas was talking about the warder bond, but as usual he couldn't put two and two together.

Hope this helps.
Roger Powell
2926. forkroot
Steelblaidd - Let me add congratulations as well. That is truly a great picture, BTW.
--

Master Al'Thor - Hope you are on the mend
--

Thinking about the Borderlanders... What is going on with them? We've had ample references to the Borderlander lifestyle and outlook. Heck, the TGS prologue begins with a scene that underscores the overwhelming sense of shared responsibility for readiness for the Last Battle.

We've had Narishma talk about it, etc. etc.

So the behavior of the Borderlander armies in the southlands is, frankly, bizarre.

I hate to say it, and I suppose that Freelancer may groan but ... is there compulsion at work here? I mean c'mon ... Agelmar is with them. We know his character. Does this behavior match anything we know about him?

Whether it's Demandred's work or something else, clearly "Something Is Up" with the Borderlander armies.
--

Lastly, I want to wish everyone in the US a happy Thanksgiving (subwoofer, you already had yours!)
john massey
2927. subwoofer
Well, I'm still thankful. I have much to be thankful for. And the idea of a second Thanksgiving... Even better than the idea of Second Breakfast! mmmmmmmmmm... turkey...

Woof™.
craig thrift
2928. gagecreedlives
Just popping in to say happy thanksgiving (or whatever the seasonal greeting is) and hope y'all have a good holiday
Wilson Grooms
2929. bungo
Re: Rand's new sword (and this might have been said 50 times already - I'm not going to read everything here)...

I'm pretty sure Rand saw the sword weighing down the dragon banner during the Breaking while he was in the Ancestotron.
Wilson Grooms
2930. bungo
@2929 You're an idiot. Obviously that sword was Callandor.
Maiane Bakroeva
2931. Isilel
Seamus 1602 @ 2888:

Tough to find one main character that doesn't have a logical argument (based upon prophecy) against him/her dying.

IIRC, the only main character that can't die is Mat and not because of any prophecy, but because we know that the outriggers centered on him were being contemplated.

Rand - well, I always thought that he'll do a cheesy Harry Potter "death", but TGS made me think that "if you will live you must die" may simply refer to reincarnation. He just has to impregnate Avi before he goes.

Rand's women - can't die before Rand, certainly, but after? IIRC only Aviendha has definite assurances of survival, which we aren't privy to.

Perrin - no vision precludes his death, as Faile will likely inherit the Broken Crown before or during TG. Ditto Faile.

Egwene - nothing precludes her death and her words when she accepted the stole struck me as possible foreshadowing. Ditto Gawyn.

Nyn - the vision of baby with the sword may preclude her death. OTOH, Min didn't see that it was hers.

Lan - nothing precludes his death. He only has to get together with Nyn one more time if the vision was of their baby. Malkier is gone and won't be magically resurrected. It will remain in legend and myth.

IMHO, out of 5 TR kids 2 will die and remain dead. One boy and one girl.

Didn't Sanderson say that there is a surprising number of deaths (all outlined by RJ of course) in ToM already?
Rob Munnelly
2932. RobMRobM
Steel - congrats on the babe. I'm surprised and impressed your wife went along with the name Aviendha though.

Rob
Rob Munnelly
2933. RobMRobM
Lsiel - what's the point of the Golden Crane if they are not going to be the foundation for the new Malkier post-TG? That is a certainty IMO. Only issue is whether Lan will rule with Nyneave (and Sharina at their side, as I expect) or whether he'll die gloriously after impregnating Nyn and the kid will grow up to rule.

I'm still betting big bucks on Rand dying, being reincarnated somehow into Moridin's body and then impregnating Avi, fulfilling Min's vision that there is something odd about the kids.

BWS did say he gets to play the Grim Reaper, but I'm still betting that carnage is mostly limited to minor players. Rob
Wilson Grooms
2934. alreadymadwithturkeyday
I wish I could go to the bunker but I received a better offer. In any case I've got several movies I'd recommend but I'll start with a few:
Excalibur
Robinhood: Prince of Thieves
Robinhood: Men in Tights for comic relief
The Abyss
Band of Brothers
Casablanca Here's to looking at you, kid
Willow
Ferris Bueller's Day Off
Weird Science
War of the Roses
Grosse Pointe Blank

Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US of A. I'm not, but seeing as Thanksgiving has granted me a day off, feel free to greet me as well.
Bouke de Boer
2935. Bouke
Ah, the sweet thrill of reading WoT comments... ::snaps out of it::

OK, so.. re: character deaths. Like the summaries, I'm moving from "Of course they all live, the prophecies say so!" to "Mweh, battle done, world saved, exit stage right" and back again. There are good arguments both for and against either. Inwardly, still rooting for the They-almost-die-but-not-quite-so-live-to-see-another-day scenario...

Movies I'm bringing:
- Lock, Stock and 2 Smoking Barrels
- Snatch
- Anchorman
- 40 year old virgin
- Finding Nemo
- Trainspotting
- The Departed
- Batman Begins
- The Dark Knight
- Scarface

Would have brought a ton more, but you guys already supplied those (excellent choices!)

Can't help it, but bungo @2929: the sword, it do be Justice (I wonder what the wordcount is on Justice over this thread...)
Jay Dauro
2936. J.Dauro
Happy Thanksgiving to all who are celebrating. Are we having turkey in the bunker?

Congratulations Steel. A lovely Daughter-Heir.
Richard Fife
2937. R.Fife
The new bunker, (if it exists) is having Turducken.

Happy Turkeyday to those who celebrate, happy JustAnotherThursday to those who don't.

To death counts: I anticipate a high mortality rate even amongst major players. My bets for major deaths are:

Perrin (honestly, there is nothing saying he has to do anything post TG, as much as we want him to)

Thom (He gets to rescue Mo, then ends up dying saving here again during an MoA)

Mo (She goes apeshit over Thom's death and Kamakazes)

AND

Egwene via Gawyn. Why, you ask? Simple, so far every single "dual" vision we have seen has come out on top. I think it's time for one to flip the "wrong" way.
john massey
2938. subwoofer
Ahem, 'Tis the day of the turkey and the day of Thanks for many things. As such I will say thank you if anyone cares to forward me their leftovers ( I prefer the lighter meat). I am more than happy to help out an overburdened fridge;)

Oh yeah, forgot one- for Frodo. Some want to balefire this series, IMHO, I am glad it came out and although not perfect, still is better than the void that was.

Woof™.
john massey
2939. subwoofer
As far as deaths go, remember, only the good die young.

Woof™.
Jacy Clark
2940. Amalisa
Happy Thanksgiving!

Here's a weird thought re "Aviendha's four, but there's something odd about them" thing...

What if she has two of her own sired by Rand, but she adopts the other two via the Aiel adoption ceremony after Elayne dies or is killed. That gives her four, all Rand's children. It would probably mean the end of House Trakand's rule of Andor, but for all we know there may not be an Andor after the Last Battle.

I think back to the Trolloc Wars - which will seem like a picnic compared to the Last Battle, don't you think? The Ten Nations were pretty much toast when all was said and done. And if there's no more Andor, then there's no real impediment to Perrin resurrecting Manetheren.

Okay, going a little far afield there, I'll admit...

So, again, happy Turkey Day to those who celebrate it, and will see you all again on the comatose side of it all! :D
Jacy Clark
2941. Amalisa
Happy Thanksgiving!

Here's a weird thought re "Aviendha's four, but there's something odd about them" thing...

What if she has two of her own sired by Rand, but she adopts the other two via the Aiel adoption ceremony after Elayne dies or is killed. That gives her four, all Rand's children. It would probably mean the end of House Trakand's rule of Andor, but for all we know there may not be an Andor after the Last Battle.

I think back to the Trolloc Wars - which will seem like a picnic compared to the Last Battle, don't you think? The Ten Nations were pretty much toast when all was said and done. And if there's no more Andor, then there's no real impediment to Perrin resurrecting Manetheren.

Okay, going a little far afield there, I'll admit...

So, again, happy Turkey Day to those who celebrate it, and will see you all again on the comatose side of it all! :D
Leslie Annis
2943. Lannis
My Guilty Pleasure movies to add to the list:

The Count of Monte Cristo
American Beauty
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
The Taming of the Shrew (Elizabeth Taylor version)
The Shawshank Redemption
One Flew Over the Cuckcoo's Nest
Interview with the Vampire
Sweeney Todd
Juno



SteelBlaidd! Congratulations! She's beautiful! :)


bungo @ 2929 & 2930: BAHAHAhahahaha!


Amalisa @ 2940: re: Aviendha adopting Elayne's babies... you know, that's not a bad theory--especially since Elayne's all "I'm not gonna die, my babies are going to be fine!" So now I'm wondering if it'll be some last minute cesarean with Elayne dying and the babies surviving her... hmm... tragic, yes, but plays to the irony of the "survive to give birth" viewing: what if that's the last thing she does? Leaving Min, Avi and Alanna to be the three weeping over the funeral pyre? Hmm...

Truly, though, I think Alanna's cannon fodder...

(Psst: Amalisa... Because you're logged in, you can hit edit and change your double post... ;)


EDIT: Added a couple more movies... :)
Guillaume Bergeron
2944. Nightbaron
Lannis @2943

Unless Alanna somehow becomes "the lion sword", I doubt she'll be the third woman on the funeral pyre, as per Nicola's Foretelling:
The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.
Guillaume Bergeron
2945. Nightbaron
Ooh, ok, I just had a thought re-reading the Nicola Foretelling I quoted above.

The wording "He who is dead yet lives" had me thinking... We've heard many times about the dangers of going too strongly in Tel'Aran'Rhiod. Hopper has warned Perrin a few times of it, and I believe the dreamwalkers have mentioned it as well. tGS also alludes to the fact that Perrin needs to learn more about T'A'R before the Last Battle.

So here's the theory (is it loony? You tell me!):

Rand ends up in T'A'R and faces Cyndane there ("You're mine, Lews Therin!") and she ends up holding him there and pulling him stronger and stronger in T'A'R. Perrin goes in the Wolf Dream, and thanks to his newly learned dreaming skills, is able to defeat Cyndane and help Rand, thus fulfilling Min's viewing that Perrin must save Rand from women who could channel a second time.

However, at this point, Rand's soul has been disconnected from his body too long, so the body actually died, yet his soul still lives, stuck in T'A'R.

Then when the Rand's Harem find his body and put it on the funeral pyre, Rand is the man who is dead yet lives.

We could then add the theory that Rand will live again using Moridin's body, however this happens.

What do you guys think?
Richard Fife
2946. R.Fife
@2944

Oh, forgot about that prophecy commented on Guardians (Asha'man) and Servants (Aes Sedai). As per that prediction, seems rather indicative that channeling will survive to the 4th Age.
Leslie Annis
2947. Lannis
Nightbaron @ 2944: re: "the lion sword"... erm... good point... was just thinking of three women... Meh, the delivery of Elayne's babies will be after TG... erm, unless TG takes months and months (which it could, I suppose...), so the viewing could be of a heavily pregnant lion sword... whoa... weird image... :O
Tess Laird
2948. thewindrose
Happy Thanksgiving to all. I was trying to find a quote from the book and came upon the formal Tuatha'an leave takng:

"You came in peace," Raen intoned, bowing formally, hands on his chest. "Depart now in peace. Always will our fires welcome you, in peace. The Way of the Leaf is peace."

"Peace be on you always," Elyas replied, "and on all the People." He hesitated, then added, "I will find the song, or another will find the song, but the song will be sung, this year or in a year to come. As it once was, so shall it be again, world without end."


And now I have a funny thought - Perrin as the Wolf King and Elyas will find and sing The Song to the Tuatha'an.
Richard Fife
2949. R.Fife
Nightbaron@2945

Also, remember that Rand is connected to the Horn (at least as per Hawkwing in book2). If Rand dies... then the horn is blown... doesn't that mean Rand comes back?

Also, could pull a Birgette on him and just rip him out of TAR like Moggy did. Although, what that'd do to the pattern in general, who knows. I could see him still being bound though cause the pattern is just stubborn.

Oh, and Steel, grats on the little one. Just don't be too harsh when she starts climbing trees ;)
Wilson Grooms
2950. violetdancer
Re: Masking the warder bond. There is also Lan telling Nynaeve that Myrelle will know what he's doing. Nynaeve asks if he can make sure Myrelle knows who he is with.

Perrin and Elyas: Perrin may also be remembering Moiraine's coin Finders from TEOTW. Does anyone else suspect Mat's hat is one for Lanfear?
Sophie O'Neill
2951. Caerlie
@Amalisa good theory. orrrr. Melaine, Bael and Dorindha all bite the big one and Aviendha is there to rescue the babies?
Cheryl
2952. First Selector
Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate! I've got a cranberry apple pie for the bunker.

@2950
Re Mat's hat: interesting idea but I don't know that something like that would survive Lanfear's trip to Finnland.



Re character death:
I'm betting all the Two Rivers 5 and their honeys survive (except maybe Gawyn). Deaths will include:
Birgitte
Cads
Siuan & Gareth
Bashere
Alanna

hmm and others...out of time - gotta go help cook!
T C
2953. Freelancer
To all of good cheer in every land,

May today, and every day to follow, find you with more for which to be thankful than yesterday. May your thanks be directed to Him with whom we all have to do, and from whom all good and perfect things flow. Enjoy the day, love your family, and scarf like you've been starving for a week.


Amalisa@2921

Thank you for finding that passage, probably what I was half-remembering, though I thought there was a case the other way around, where the Warder was masking. I was clearly wrong.

We appear to be from the same place, you and I. Not a geographic place, but your movie choices tell me much. If I had continued to add more, I would have certain begun with Hondo. You named Sean Connery twice, my daughter would love that.

I too am baking today, rhubarb pie with a lattice double crust. I add a little pineapple to even out the tartness of rhubarb, where some prefer to smother the taste with too much sugar. From two years ago:






thewindrose@2922

But, who doesn't know the Princess Bride by heart? Why, that's ____________!


bungo@2930

Hey there, none of that here. No calling commentors idiots, even if they are you. On the other hand, always wiser to refuse others the chance to flame you by flaming yourself. Well played.


RE: Character demise. I've said this before, but it bears a fresh visit under the circumstances. If one takes a retroactive view of the story, as having been written about those who had the greatest impact on the outcome of a worldwide conflict, it is less "unnatural" (or whatever judgmental word you might choose), that the vast majority of the protagonists would survive. If, for example, Thom had died in Whitebridge keeping that Fade away from Rand and Mat, an author looking back on the whole thing might have not bothered to note his inclusion at all. In any history of major conflict, there are survivors. The great majority of the time, stories end up involving the lives of the survivors rather than those who fell prior to the climax. It doesn't make the story less realistic if you look at it that way, is all I'm saying.
T C
2954. Freelancer
Alanna as the Lion Sword? That's a serious stretch. That foretelling is clearly naming Minaviyne.

Lion Sword - Daughter Heir of Andor
Dedicated Spear - Aiel Maiden
She Who sees Beyond - Coal miner's daughter from Baerlon


More movies:

Jaws
Rocky (#1 only, thank you)
American Graffiti
Ben Hur
Spartacus
Bringing up Baby
A Streetcar named Desire ("STELLA!!!")
In the Heat of the Night ("They call me Mr. Tibbs!")
A Clockwork Orange
...
. . .And I can't believe none of you veterans have gotten around to picking. . .
...
The Green Berets ("Fighting soldiers from the sky...")
Wilson Grooms
2955. daggers
Why is everyone saying that Birgette is going to die didn't Min have a viewing where she was with Gaidal Cain and he was much younger than her? All the other images were of them two where Birgette was the younger of the two, so I highly doubt she'll kick the bucket.
john massey
2956. subwoofer
Well, as you can see- Pilgrim, I am a big John Wayne fan, but I much prefer Chisum, Hondo, or Maclintock to the Green Berets. Good movie, but Platoon had a better feel, IMHO. Any way you slice it, you can't go wrong with JW.

Not going to get into the Birgette thing... especially with Olver about. Ugly kid.

Wha? Pie? Forget this, I'm coming to SD to er... sample the local cuisine.

Edit- for "Pilgrim"- I had to give the Duke a nod. Couldn't resist, especially with Thanksgiving State side. Shucks.

Woof™.
john massey
2957. subwoofer
Turducken? Is that tofurkey gone wrong?

Woof™.
Lynn McDonald
2958. meal6225
Rhubarb with pineapple?! Must try that when next I have fresh rhubarb in the Spring. I usually add strawberries to cut some of the sour. New favorite pie is concord grape pie. Alas I must take a holiday shift at the lab so will eat my feast as leftovers tomorrow. Happy Thanksgiving to all wherever the Pattern has you!
Wilson Grooms
2959. J.Dauro
Sub @2957

Turducken

Stuff the deboned Chicken => deboned Duck => partially deboned Turkey

Include different dressings

3 meats in one.
Wilson Grooms
2960. daggers
lol it's a turkey stuffed with a duck stuffed with either a chicken or a hen
Guillaume Bergeron
2961. Nightbaron
J Dauro @2959

So THAT's the meaning of the prophecy, Rand will hold Callandor and have a meal of Turducken to give Thanks to Team Light for defeating the Dark One!
Wilson Grooms
2962. AshamanDavid
I was determined to read all the posts before contributing but it is becoming overwhelming. I'm on post 2379 right now and the page is just getting longer... You guys post faster than I can read! :P

I have a theory to what The Eye of the World was meant to be used for. I think that it was meant to be used to seal the Dark One's prison. The Eye is a well so presumably if the Dark One would try the same counter-stroke, the Source would not be tainted, simply the saidin in The Eye. In this way The Eye would be a protection against the counter-stroke.

One point of evidence for this is the lives that the Aes Sedai gave to make the saidin in the well pure. I believe that with tainted saidin the seals would be weak. I'm thinking here that the Aes Sedai were counting on the counter-stroke striking too late to taint the saidin in the well and not corrupting the seals.

The sacrifice made by these Aes Sedai now seems useless because Rand removed the taint. Of course, who knows if Rand would have so eagerly drawn from it in EOTW if it had been tainted...

I am undecided whether The Eye of the World will play any role during the Last Battle.
Guillaume Bergeron
2963. Nightbaron
AshamanDavid @2962

That's an interesting theory, actually! I like it, and I like it more than the "using the True Power to seal the prison" theory, personally.
Ron Garrison
2964. Man-0-Manetheran
“The Big Clue” - My Report

Well, here is my promised report. Since I’m not as familiar with the Ways of WoT blogs as many here, I can’t be sure that it hasn’t been discussed to death elsewhere. Please forgive if I only brought up an old topic!

My assignment was the Tinkers and The Way of the Leaf. While I still feel that we have yet to see the significance of them, I failed in my sleuthing. For some reason I kept getting turned aside to look at the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. I’d go for a reference to some Tinker thing and I’d open the book to an Aelfinn and Eelfinn reference. I finally decided it was a ta’veren thing and went with it. So here it is in roughly the order experienced. This is all from The Shadow Rising.

Chapter 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei - Birgette to Perrin:
(There is no way to win) “Except to break the rules,” she said. “’Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.’”

Chapter 15 - Into the Doorway - Aelfinn to Mat:
“Good, you have brought no lamps, no torches, as the agreement was, and is, and ever will be. You have no iron? No instruments of music?”
Mat thinks about the knife in his hand. ::Well, the blade was good steel,not iron.:: “No. No iron, and no instruments of...” Clearly his half truth passes. Break the rules. The reference to iron and music is repeated three more times in this chapter.

Also on the “breaking the rules” front, Mat is told he can only have three questions answered. His three questions are:
1. "Should I go home to help my people?"
2. "Why should I [go to Rhuidean]?"
3. "Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean?"

Being Mat, he just keeps asking away. They answer his fourth question, “What fate are you talking about?” This gets him 3 more answers!
"To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!"
"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"
"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!"

OK, back to the iron, music, fire subject: We have a musician in Thom. Aludra has given Mat firesticks. While Mat has great skill with knives, knives might not necessarily be the iron of choice here. The important thing is that he has shown that by breaking the rules, these can all be brought into the ToG through trickery.

On a slight tangent, I posted the other day a “what if” question: What if when Moiraine is rescued, she asks for Lan’s bond back from Myrelle? I came upon this quote from Moiraine while researching the above. Referring to Nynaeve: “She will have him if I die, and not before.” Hmmmm. Just sayin’...

That’s my WoTxt. Nothing earth Breaking, probably not The Big Clue, but it’s all I got.

And I’ll bring the Monty Python movies. Proper preparation for the Last Battle requires laughter. Just ask Rand.
Ron Garrison
2965. Man-0-Manetheran
Great quote from Verin to Egwene: "Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what (The Great Lord) wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

And Windrose, thanks for the Song quote:
"Peace be on you always, and on all the People. I will find the song, or another will find the song, but the song will be sung, this year or in a year to come. As it once was, so shall it be again, world without end."
Barry T
2966. blindillusion
Couldn't let the day pass without stopping by and wishing everyone Happy Thanksgiving. And to others...a wondrous Thursday?

No time to think about a WoT related topic, but I'll add some movies to the bunker's growing collection before I go start with the leftovers. As subwoofer said...

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm turkey.

The Boondock Saints
Stardust
Flight of the Navigator
The Illusionist
Rounders
Equilibrium
Raising Arizona
The Breakfast Club
Stand by Me

And


Wait for it...




I bring you....





Solarbabies

Oh, and because I don't think anyone will mind, for the young at heart, number 11 will be:

The Last Unicorn
Wilson Grooms
2967. alreadymadwithlastunicorn
Oh god...
Magic, do as you will. Magic, do as you will...

That has to be the lamest incantation ever.
Henry Loose
2968. schrodinger
::opens bunker door::
*sqweeeee*
::looks around for signs of life::
"hello-ello-llo-lo-o?"
::pauses::
"anybody there-ere-ere-re-e?"
::looks around, deciding that nobody is there::
::door closes::
::looks around outside, pulls scrap of paper out of pocket and scribbles on it, sticks it on the door::

happy thanksgiving!
p.s. hinges need oil

edit: new addition to the movie collection... Band of Brothers
R B
2969. MasterAlThor
My friends....

Thank you one and all for the well wishes. My wife and I truly appreciate them.

Steelblaidd....

There is very little more prescious than a baby girl. She will make a fine Daughter Heir.
Congrats my friend.

Update.....




Meet my new grandson. Pheonix Alexander, Tai'shar Michigan.

He is a light one isn't he? Don't forget that I am black. Doesn't matter to me. I am just happy that God made hime healthy.

Ok I know that you guys are going to kill me for it, but I don't know how to make the picture smaller. Sorry.

Movies....

Better Off Dead (Two dollars)
Highlander (too bad the didn't make any others)
Enter the Dragon
Legend (Jet Li)
9 to 5
Wilson Grooms
2970. Aye Aye Sedai
Previously Thinking about the Borderlanders... What is going on with them? We've had ample references to the Borderlander lifestyle and outlook. Heck, the TGS prologue begins with a scene that underscores the overwhelming sense of shared responsibility for readiness for the Last Battle.

With respect to the Lost Hint - Perhaps it revolves around Bashere - recall the interplay with him and Taim; The borderlanders are looking for Rand but the Queen (tenobia?) has avoided the AS envoys (from elaida) and wants to speak with Bashere (more than with Rand it seems) - they hang out to aid Elayne and then end up in Far Madding - Im just speculating that perhaps there is something "wrong" with Bashere ( IIRC a blackness around him per Min) and then there is the "broken Crown" Now wouldn't Bashere being a DF be quite a knife in the kidney?

Wonder if there are any other thoughts??
Joseph Blaidd
2971. SteelBlaidd
Thanks everyone for the good wishes.

Her big brother is enjoying His promotion.
RobM@
Steel - congrats on the babe. I'm surprised and impressed your wife went along with the name Aviendha though.


???Where did you get that idea, though Aviendha is a very pretty name her name is Rianna.



M A T
Congratulations to you on the new generation as well

Unfortunately It looks like your picture is inside the yahoo fire wall so the rest of us can't see it :( (try uploading it to photobucket or picasa(Google) or flikr)

Of course its a lame incantation hes a loser wizard.
And the Last Unicorn rocks so there :P
Flight of Dragons is pretty cool too.

Oh. do we have the the Three Musketeers yet(the one with Micheal York, and Charlton Heston)

And as it is Thanksgiving we need Planes, Trains and Automobiles
Carolyn Goodwin
2972. metacarolyn
SteelBlaidd: oooh, she's a cutie! Congrats to you and your family.

MasterAlThor: Congrats on your grandbaby! Wish I could see the pic.

All: Happy Thanksgiving! I baked some yummy pumpkin bread to share. Only 4 more days until December and possible re-read continuation!
Sophie O'Neill
2973. Caerlie
Question - So Egwene gave the BA Hunters a right old ticking off for using the Oath Rod to make Meidani and the other 'ferrets' obey them. But, she did a similar thing by asking some of her rebels to swear fealty to her. Is she being hypocritical or can she get away with it because she's not used the oath rod to do it and they could break their oath if they wanted to.
Bouke de Boer
2974. Bouke
Nightbaron @2944. That settles the 'Is there channeling in the Fourth Age?'-debate, IMO (R.Fife @2946 agrees, yay!)

R.Fife @2949. The Horn brings back reflections of the Heroes, not the actual ones. Your theory is congruent with the rebirth explanation of "To live, you must die". Personally, I don't buy that one. Of course, the Dragon will be spun out in future editions of the Wheel, so I'm leaning more to an explanation in the form of Rand actually being alive after TG.

violetdancer @2950. To me, Mat's Hat is just a cool gadget. Like I-Phones and fancy wristwatches. But waaaaay cooler than that!

daggers @2955 and subwoofer @2956. I can't recall where that vision of Min can be found. Anyone?
Subwoofer, the Gaidolver theory has been debunked by RJ Himself, so that would be a 'nicht nicht'...


And finally, a (belated) congrats to Steelblaidd!
Henry Loose
2975. schrodinger
Is it all the turkey (or turducken... my favorite 3 becoming 1 theory so far), or the fact that we're all stuffed on stuffing (and pie and rolls... (I may have nibbled on the occasional veggie)), or both; but today there was a lot of quality discussion (which I find surprising considering 3000 posts in).

Loony theory of the day: everything has a weakness... even seemingly indestructible things (cuendillar)... so it stands (on very shaky legs) to reason, that the DO has a weakness; that weakness could be turducken. Rand cooks a turducken, the DO sits down to eat it, and Rand brains him over the head with callandor. Moridin arrives, realizing his master is dead, dies of shock on the spot. Rand sits down, starts eating the turducken and starts laughing so hard that he starts choking on the turducken. His body dies, and his soul goes into Moridin's untouched body.
T C
2976. Freelancer
MasterAlThor

Good to "hear" from you. Congratulations on the new boy. It appears that you linked directly from Yahoo! mail for the photo, that won't work here. Do as SteelBlaidd suggested. Continued prayers for your family's health, and speedy recoveries.


SteelBlaidd

I'm glad you specified the 1973 version. Considering the relative casts against the 1993 version...

Charlton Heston > Tim Curry
Michael York > Chris O'Donnell
Oliver Reed > Kiefer Sutherland
Richard Chamberlain > Charlie Sheen
Raquel Welch > Julie Delpy
Faye Dunaway > Rebecca DeMornay
Frank Finlay = Oliver Platt

Given those two casts, they should have left it alone and never considered a remake.
Wilson Grooms
2977. Grijze Vos
Aye Aye Sedai @ 2970

Little is known about the Borderlanders and as long we don't know the story of the Broken Crown we can hardly say anything; we can only speculate. Here are some speculations of me:
1. The Broken Crown is made of iron.
2. A smith will reforge the Broken Crown and becomes King of Saldea; perhaps even Leader of the Borderlands. In that case the other kings will swear fealty to him.
3. Tenobia will betray Rand to the Aes in the camp of the Borderlanders
4. Bashere will be sentenced to dead for treason
5. Bashere will be saved (by Perrin becoming king)
As I said before this are just speculations, but I hope they will lead to a nice discusslon.

Freelancer

Thank you for defending my theory about the Crystal Throne. You did it quicker and in better english as I could have done.
john massey
2978. subwoofer
@Free- you had me at Charlton "Moses" Heston. Yup, it was an infinitely better movie. Everybody must have turkey hangovers today. Suffering from the 3 become 1 prophecy;)

A thought for the hidden thing in the books 4-6, was on the 13D and mention was made of Perrin's wolf dreams predicting the future and it occurred to me that the whole Slayer/Luc/Isam thing fell by the wayside. Maybe Lan bumps into Isam in his trip to the Blight. Or maybe the passing resemblance to Lan happens and Isam leads half of Lan's army into a trap or something.

'K- that was stretching it and it is full of holes but I may as well throw something out there and see what sticks too. At least maybe then BwS will say we left no stone unturned.

@Man-O well done on your assignment!

@shro- no, you were not alone. I was trapped under something heavy... er... the reno thing is trumping posting at least while my wife is awake;)

Woof™.
Leslie Annis
2979. Lannis
schrodinger @ 2975: Turducken as 3 becoming 1 theory... I'll vote for it. And I'll add Rand cooks a turducken, the DO sits down to eat it, and Rand brains him over the head with callandor might not only be the best thought out plan that Team Light has on their game plan as of yet, it is also the best use of Callandor we've seen thus far... ;)

Oh, and I've brought... ::checks bag:: WD40 for the bunker's hinges, Suffaida, get on that, will you? And sitting there so quietly while scrhodinger was looking for company was very rude! Granted, we all know that you're not first choice, so perhaps staying quiet was a blessing for him... hinges, Elaiffa... ::points:: hinges, please. No Turducken for you!
Wilson Grooms
2980. alreadymadwithvalkilmer
Caerlie @2973
Yep Egwene probably drew the distinction at having used the Oath Rod. Recall that this was after Elaida spoke of forcing sisters a fourth oath of obedience. Also, Egwene knew the lifespan shortening effects of the Oath Rod.

@Steel
Congratulations man. And to your son too for his promotion. Though he'll probably like it less when the princess starts getting princessy, such is the fate of older brothers.

re: Movie collection
Some Val Kilmer favorites
Top Secret
Real Genius
Thunderheart
The Ghost and the Darkness
The Saint
At First Sight
Red Planet
Rob Munnelly
2981. RobMRobM
@2971 - Steel, guess I should have added an LOL or winkie sign after my post. Aviendha does sound vaguely Welsh so I thought it could work. Rianna is nice too.

Rob
Tess Laird
2982. thewindrose
Ok - The Turducken Theory by schrodinger has me me cracking up:)

So we had a great dinner, and afterwards came the nap. I will have to say mine was greatly helped out by wine.

I remember when we were coming up with names that could actually be used on babies from the WoT, and someone had mentioned Aviendha *shrugs* to lazy to find the thread.

MasterAlThor - another round of well wishing for you and your family -a new grandkid - how wonderful!

The Oath Rod - I really want the scence 'on screen' when Egwene and the other AS's find out the Oath Rod was used on criminals in the AoL. It has already been brought up on how there is much more belief in someones statement without cohersion then what an AS says while binded by the oaths. In fact we have been hammered over the head with how AS can twist words about to basically lie but still not be caught by the oaths.
Even as late as tGS - Yukiri nodded. "I didn't think that you'd be so childish as to expose us out of spite. We should have realized that you, like all of us, would have experience pushing and bending oaths to suit your needs."
Chapter 12 Unexpected Encounters - a highly relevent chapter for some of the discussions on this thread. It talks about 'a fourth oath', and how you can believe something, and really believe it - see Meidani's thoughts throughout the chapter- it ends: "You really are the Amyrlin," she finally said. It was an odd comment. Hadn't she just sworn that she accepted Egwene's authority?
Wilson Grooms
2983. Planeswalker
Oh no! That pic by M A T is not loading. Now my page is wider and scrambled...

But I saw that baby pic a couple days ago... yup, baby is beautiful. :) congrats M A T!
Tess Laird
2984. thewindrose
I love Band of Brothers - what a slew of emotions that mini-series takes me through. It's not to often that war on the big or mini screen is done right - but BoB nails it!
So if we can bring mini-series as well, how about tv shows? So we could have Serenity as well as Firefly. I would also recommend Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica(the new one) without the ending, all the Treks, I did like CSI Las Vegas(Grisom was my favorite), Sopranos.
Ron Garrison
2985. Man-0-Manetheran
Hello Friday all! So nice to be among sane folks who refuse to go shopping on this day. This day was meant for leftovers! I made some dynamite cranberry chutney which we've all been looking forward to in a turkey sandwich - tart, spicy and with a habañero kick.

Thanks for the wag of the tail, Woofer. My WoTxt was already too huge, but I spent a lot of time following the Slayer thread. You're right that it kind of just laid there. For me it was just so odd, I couldn't make anything of it at the time. Now Tower of Ghengei, Luc, Isam, Aelfinn, Eelfinn are all linked up in the same box.

Names, names, names. Lannis, you mentioned Suffaida which made me think about the old gal and her new pet name. I originally read Suffa as rhyming with loofa. But it could be pronounced like a clipped "suffer" (drop the r). Suffa = Suffer

I've always liked the hidden humor in some of RJ's names:
Weiramon = weary man
Hinderstap = Hinder's Trap

There are more. I bet we can come up with quite a list...
Charlotte Giurgiu
2986. almdoipad
You want a looney theory? Asmodean. If it is where he died that this is hinging on, I'm going with the realm of the Finn. Specifically the Eelfinn who grant wishes. I postulate that a wish by Moiraine or Lanfear brought Asmodean to 'Finnland. And what greater surprise would cause "You? No!"? Whether Moiraine's wish or Lanfear's I shan't even go into. But I really like this where.

And.... destroy.
Sophie O'Neill
2987. Caerlie
Oh all this thanksgiving food talk is making me hungry. *drool*
One day will have to go to the states and experience it myself. The whole idea of pumpkin in a dessert intrigues me.
Wilson Grooms
2988. Cowboy Funk
Ok, I just finished the book. I took my sweet time with it trying to enjoy every single page but now that I am done I cant wait to read through it again at a normal pace.

As with most, my favorite scene was the Semi/Rand/Min scene for the pure fact that I literally had anxiety over it. Very well written and amazing outcome. I felt a bit of Rand die in that chapter and it definitely set the mood for the remainder of the book and Rands eventual downard spiral.

Second favorite chapter; Hinderstap! I love these side little adventures and this one was especially eerie to me. Well done start to finish and it made me spooked to go out that evening. lol.

I liked Brandons writing...the first chapter really was a dupe. It made me believe I would be annoyed and unfulfilled for the rest of the book but by ch. 3 I didnt even notice the difference. Obviously he wasnt as eloquent as Jordan in descriptions, etc. But I think he stayed true to the theme of WOT and added his own spice.

All I know is I am glad there is new WOT out there in the world...but now I have to wait a year for the next one!!! *sigh* Time to reread again.

and P.S. I am at work...day after turkey day...pure evil.
Jacy Clark
2989. Amalisa
While we're on the subject of looney theories...

I saw this on another forum and, at first, went "naaaah". But then I started thinking about it. And thinking about it. And thinking about it some more...

Rand has to die in order to live. Maybe we're over-complicating things here a little with the being reborn in Moridin's body or living out his life in T'a'R or going to the Eelfinn/Aelfinn.

The solution has already been done once. Why not again?

Yeah, yeah, the theory... I'm getting to it.

Balefire.

What if someone kills Rand, but does so in the presence of Nynaeve or Aviendha or Moiraine (that last would be super sweet!), and one of them (or all three, for that matter) balefire that person immediately and with sufficient strength to "undo" Rand's death.

Scenario: Sometime in the last book (or the end of book two), Alivia (who, I admit, has bothered me from day one) decides it's time for Rand to die. Whatever the reason. Min's viewing or she's a DF or she's just been seriously unhinged after centuries on the wrong end of an a'dam. The critical moment comes but, fortunately, Nynaeve or Aviendha or Moiraine (yes, I'm assuming she will be rescued. And still able to channel) or all three are there when it happens. Individually or linked, they balefire ol' Alivia out of existence. Poof! Rand sits up with a "wha' happened?" look on his face.

Like I said... it's been done before. Why not again?

I didn't include Elayne in the scenario because she may or may not have delivered at that point, but if she has, she could be there, too. IIRC, neither Avi nor Elayne has ever actually used balefire but Nynaeve and Moiraine both have and, in a circle, either of them could focus the weave with sufficient strength to get the job done.

Yes, I know there are the Dreams (Melaine's and Bair's) and Foretelling (Nicola's) of Rand on a boat (why a boat?) with three women in attendance. (IIRC, only Nicola's identifies, however cryptically, who those women are.) Also, Egwene's dream of Rand on the funeral bier with three women (unidentified?) watching over him. That could happen, too, at some point in the future. The point is that Min's viewing (re Alivia) and Egwene's dream don't have to be of the same moment in time, right?

Okay, I'm rambling now... Go ahead and poke holes in all of the above...
Jacy Clark
2990. Amalisa
Master al'Thor... Congratulations on the new grandbaby!! Blessings all around! :)

Freelancer... I imagine you and I are probably pretty close in age, which may have something to do with that "same place"... :D

Caerlie@2987

This recipe for pumpkin pie is my favorite! I'm guessing you'll have to convert for metric and celsius...?
T C
2991. Freelancer
Caerlie@2973

There are differences. The first to swear to Egwene as Amyrlin did so to gain her trust, and unprovoked. They had treated her poorly when they were above her, and they still didn't like her, but she had earned their respect and trust, and they thought it the only way to prove themselves. The sisters whom Egwene "pressured" to swear had been caught behaving very badly. If within the Tower, their actions might have bordered on the criminal. And in the AoL, criminals were Bound.

The BA hunters had rationalized a good justification for forcing Meidani to swear an additional oath, but it was truly nothing more than convenience for themselves, and a virtual Compelling in its application.


Bouke@2974

I'm in agreement with you. Spinning and stretching the interpretation of "to live you must die" as meaning being reborn in a later age, that's natural for souls, nothing special, not worthy of a 'finn answer.


thewindrose@2984

Oh me, let's not start with TV shows, because then people will be naming stuff like Alias, Heroes, House, Lie to Me, L&O SVU. You wouldn't want that, would you?


Shopping? Today? Why would a sane person do such a thing? Is saving a few $ worth inducing a stroke? Risking life and limb on the roads as well as indoors? Seeing human beings turned into semi-sentient monsters? I've seen the Left-4-Dead video game, and it looks just like Black Friday to me, just with a few less weapons.

Nope, doing some general housebody stuff, enjoying a weekday not thinking of numbers, munching on hard sourdough pretzels and pistachios, sipping Bundaberg root beer.


Amalisa@2989

I'm gonig to poke just one teeny tiny hole, ok? Alivia hasn't "decided Rand needed to die". Min's viewing is that she will help Rand to die. Alivia knows nothing about this herself, and I guarantee neither Min, Rand, nor Nynaeve (I believe the only ones who know of this viewing) are going to tell her. There's been no suggestion of any kind that she's a darkfriend.


@2990

Well, since mine has been established here, to the day, I wouldn't dare make a suggestion about any lady's proximity to my own age. I may be many unpleasant things, but I'm not that rude.
Wilson Grooms
2992. Tom Hendriks
Hey everyone!

First of all I want to thank Robert Jordan and Brian Sanderson for writing this wonderful book. My favourite passages in the book are the Verin revelation, the battle with Egwene versus the Seanchan and Rand finally laughing! I can't say that it's my favourite book though, because I got so very frustrated with Rand. Still, props, it's a great book and very well written.

Thanks for the discussions here. Some nice thoughts! I obviously couldn't read everything, but you're giving me plenty to think about. I will share some of my own thoughts with you here.

Am I the only one who got very scared when seeing how powerful Shaidar Haran is? It made me wonder why the Dark One wouldn't use him more often to assassinate some of his opponents.

Another mindbreaker for me was the fact that Rand has lost Lews Therin's voice in his head. I always hoped that Lews Therin's part of Rand dying would explain the visions of Rand dying at the Last Battle. Now I'm wondering in what way Rand is going to die.

Who do you all think are going to wield Callandor with Rand? I think the theory that Tuon will do it is a little far-fetched. I suspect it to be the most powerful channelers - Alivia and Nynaeve. Alivia will definitely have to stay close to Rand in order to help him die.

I wonder in what way Rand will fight the Dark One. Will the Dark One take control of the body of Shaidar Haran and use him as a means of contact with the world? What IS the Dark One? Is the Dark One something physical?

With so many important generals on Rand's side: Rodel Ituralde, Davram Bashere, Mat, (+ Gareth Bryne), I wonder who will be chief in command of the armies at the last battle. New tactics on the side of the Light: dragons and channelers on raken! *can't wait!*

For the next book, I suspect that Taim and the Black Tower will attack Andor. Elayne has little to do but raising and army and producing dragons and she would be important in the next book. I think that would explain why the control of Andor is so important to the outcome of the Last Battle - If Taim grabs control of Andor, there would be a huge problem. I really hope not too many non-Darkfriend Asha'man will be killed.

There, enough ramblin' for now. Kiss kiss and greetings from the Netherlands!
Ron Garrison
2993. Man-0-Manetheran
Tom @ 2992 - "What IS the Dark One? Is the Dark One something physical?"

Those are very good questions, and I think the Dark One is not a physical being. That's why I believe that defeating "him" will be a very tricky thing.

I really like Verin's remark that was slipped in her wonderful chapter: "Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what (The Great Lord) wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."
Sophie O'Neill
2994. Caerlie
Freelancer @2991

@ Freelancer
Although I agree there are differences, mainly to do with your excellent point about it being “ a virtual Compelling in its application” I’m not convinced that Egwene’s reasoning stands up. Especially if we consider how much weight swearing an oath holds in Randland, just ask Siuan and her pruney looking hands!

For Egwene’s part, yes Theodrin and Faolain offered first, but it was Egwene’s choice to accept it. . although oh how deliciously tempting!

With Myrelle and the other sister, undoubtedly they had committed an atrocious act if Siuan’s reaction was anything to go by, however essentially Egwene was taking advantage of a situation which would further establish her power base. It could be argued she then abused that by demanding that they not only obey her but Siuan as well.

To be fair to the BA Hunters, as far as they were concerned the rebels were behaving very badly indeed and had essentially committed treason against the rightful Tower. Not only that were also on a mission to further destabalise it - and had to be stopped whilst not jeopardising a hunt for the BA. So that’s just as bad if not worse than what Myrelle had done to Lan as the impact was on the Tower, and everyone in it, not on just one person.
Both sides were taking advantage of situations, one took advantages more than the other and certainly demonstrated a desire to further abuse it.

Guess it won't bite Egwene on the bum as long as she releases those Aes Sedai from their oath of fealty.
T C
2995. Freelancer
Hello Tom. Good to hear from the Netherlands. About the Dark One, I don't believe he's a corporeal entity. So, how do you confine an unfettered spirit?


Unresolved clue report. I decided to reread TFoH. I wasn't given a specific assignment, but I figured it this way. If you ask a person to pick a number between 1 and 7, you get more answers of 3 & 4 than all the others combined. It is a human behavior. So when Brandon said that the first clue about this mystery that gets too little mention is found between books 4 & 6...

And, the first unaccounted for item that I have found is in the chapter Figs and Mice. At the end of the chapter, Ronde Macura sends two pigeons, one to Tar Valon, and one West, destination unidentified. Once she leaves the pigeon coops, the owner, Avi Shendar, lifts her message off of his writing pad, and sends a third pigeon "in still another direction".

Ronde is a yellow informant, and probably gets some pay for her messages. She is also being paid by someone else for copies of those messages. Whitecloaks are not an option, as Amador is still to the East. So a pigeon flying West pretty much has to be going for Tanchico. If the destination were Falme or Bandar Eban, a more distinct direction of North and West would have been used, matching the aiming of North and East used for the pigeon heading to Tar Valon.

As far as Ronde would know, the Black sisters are still in Tanchico, if she had been hired by them. Who else would pay her for information about two wandering Aes Sedai? Moghedien? Her intimation at the end that she wouldn't mind seeing Nynaeve suffer might tie into Moggy.

As for Avi's third pigeon, this one could be bound for Bandar Eban, Illian, Murandy, or even the short trip to Amador.

I'd say there's a very large loose end there. Maybe.
Wilson Grooms
2996. daggers
@2974 It's in Ch12 of winters heart
Wilson Grooms
2997. Tom Hendriks
Hmmm, I couldn't put the thought out of my head of what the Dark One is... effectively I could only come up with 'True Power'. A thought that just came to my mind after reading through some people's posts and maybe a simple way to defeat the Dark One...

Everything has some kind of opposite. Most fantasy books are based on evil fighting versus good. In this case you have the Light fighting against the Dark. There must always be a balance of some sort.

What if you picture Saidin and Saidar as being the Light and True Power as being the opposite: the Dark (One). I can imagine the Dark One fighting Rand and his 2 female companions. Rand using Saidin and Saidar and the Dark One using True Power.

Now wouldn't it be great if it would somehow end with the Dark One forming a huge beam of balefire from True Power, Rand forming a huge beam of balefire of Saidin and Saidar, and these beams of balefire would meet, balance up and completely erase Saidin, Saidar and True Power. And with True Power being gone, effectively the Dark One being gone?

I thought it was an interesting idea.... it wouldn't do much good to the Pattern though.
Tricia Irish
2998. Tektonica
Whew. I leave for 2 days and another 100 posts go up! You were all so very productive, I can't imagine you were full of Triptophan from all the turkey! Hope everyone had a great TDay. Lots of great new theories and thoughts and posters. Welcome all.

Steelblaidd, congratulations! Beautiful baby girl! Enjoy the next 14 years, then duck.

Master alThor, hope you are feeling better, and congrats on the grandbaby too!

Freelancer@2916 and blocksmith@2908, re: your discussion of planes: we took a quick trip to grandma's house Thursday, with the added bonus of a visit to the Smithsonian Art and Space Museum at Dulles, and wow! The
F-14 and the Blackbird were my personal faves, but the Space shuttle, various satellites and the Enola Gay were awesome too. A don't miss stop in the DC area, if you're ever there.

And Rhubarb pie is my personal favorite too...NO strawberries, ever. I'll try some pineapple next spring. Pretty pie picture...nice lattice work, very impressive. I'm drooling.....

Nightbaron@2945, Interesting new theory...complicated, but interesting....

Violet dancer@2950, Mat's Hat! lol....I like it!

General question....Have we ever heard just WHY the Borderlanders left the blight? There was some vague mention of looking for Rand, but that seems so lame. Why bring the whole army to look for Rand? (With 13 Aes Sedai, who haven't been identified.) Is there a connection between what they're up to and Bashere? If Bashere is a DF and the Borderlander army is nearby, and he's formed a second army, ostensibly for Rand, could it be a plot to stop the DR? Thoughts???

blindillusion@2888, I forgot that we'd been told that we hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego.....gives more credence to Dem=Roedran or Dem with the Borderlanders. I agree with you about it not making much sense asking an army from Shara, who has effectively sealed themselves off from the world, to come fight in the westlands. The Shara references all just seem too vague to me.

Great movie library so far! May I add a few....

Lawrence of Arabia
Once Upon a Time in the West
LOR
The Wizard of OZ
2001
LaStrada (or any Fellini)
The Bourne's
Gladiator

I'll bring the popcorn.....
Henry Loose
3000. schrodinger
3000... what to do with this awesome responsibility that has been placed upon me? This can't be a lame post, because, well, after 3 weeks of this post and the many many commentators working their way slowly towards this mark, it would be, well, lame.

down to business.

As Tom Hendriks@2992 pointed out, team light has a lot of generals working for it, although a lot hinges on what the seanchan do. Rand, as of his meeting w/ forTuona, is ignoring them, hoping he can defeat the DO before they cause to much trouble for him (although after his dragonmount realization, he probably has changed that view). So Bashere and Mat are most likely to be facing the shadow's forces from start to finish. Once Ituralde learns of Rand's leaving of AD, he will likely turn back to face the seanchan. Bryne will also be facing the seanchan because he works for the white tower. The borderlanders and Algemar are a wild card, they could be where they are to do just about anything, but eventually, they will face the shadow. so two of the five remaining great captains are likely to face the seanchan, unless a truce is made, and two are to face the shadow, and one is stuck in limbo with the borderlanders.

A truce with the Seanchan changes this. Ituralde can stay in the borderlands, and Bryne, once Rand comes to the WT, or talks w/ Egwene and faces her anger over a truce w/ the Seanchan, can lead the WT forces to the borderlands, without fear of another attack on the WT. Algemar and the borderlanders will either feel shamed (or they already have been) into returning to the borderlands.

In regard to the BA hunters. I think that they will be the ones to find Messana, because they need a MOA.

Man-0-Manetheran@2993
The nature of the DO. I have two theories about the nature of the DO. either he is the anti-creator, or the embodiment of chaos. The creator imprisoned him at the moment of creation, and he is outside the pattern. the words outside and imprison seem to contradict each other, because when we imagine imprisonment, we think of inside. So, my theory: The DO is a sphere of evil, trapped by the pattern, or, the pattern is a sphere of "good" that keeps the DO out, as fortifications keep out an army. The bore acts as a doorway through the wall of the pattern, either way, it is the weak point. Rand's task is to make the doorway as strong as the other parts of the wall/pattern. (easiest metaphor I can come up with for this theory is a bubble of air in an endlessly high sea. It floats there, surrounded by something that is always trying to come in.

3 becoming one: see my above turducken theory.

general "predictions"/fortellings:

Mat, Thom, Farstrider go to finnland, rescue Moiraine, Farstrider dies/left behind.

Logain kicks Taim's BUTT!

forTuona somehow realizes she is wrong and needs an alliance w/ Rand (I'm still open to Rand bowing to her, although w/ concessions to Rand)

Forsaken continue to act stupid, although Ishydin remains top dog, and only one to realize DO's true plans.

Black Tower cleansing (byebye Taiminion and followers)

Aeil will die/kill, its what they're good at.

Perrin finds song of growing in time for most of land to not starve to death, Tinkers help spread it so that everyone has food to eat.

Elayne will give birth and finally realize that she is not invulnerable *crosses fingers*

Cads dies and many readers will rejoice (but then, as per Min's story to Perrin in TDR, they will relize that they will miss her... or at least look back fondly... scratch that, they'll still hate her).

Just some random musings from the bunker. (suffa did a good job on the hinges... suffa still a bad damane, but good job on the hinges).

edit: as you can tell, I had to move the pattern a bit to get this post... I have won again Lews Therin.

edit: I just realized that this comes on the one month anniversary of the release of TGS (and this thread, maybe we should get Leigh a present?)
T C
3001. Freelancer
Tektonica

What had me thinking of you as late teens or early 20's? Your movie choices say otherwise. And I'm not trolling for details, just saying...

Yep, the Tomcat was retired early, it was still the finest fighter available. Dogfighting was never it's goal, but being able to throw a Phoenix at the enemy from well over 60 miles, a greater distance than the next best fighter radar can track. So your death is on the way before you even know there's a Tomcat out there. Also, yes, the Habu is utterly unmatched as the finest example of American engineering ingenuity, considering its design began in 1957, first flight in 1962, and there still isn't another normally powered aircraft which has flown higher or faster. I had the honor of meeting Kelly Johnson, the Lockheed Skunkworks senior designer, several years before his passing.


Schrodinger

How long have you been sitting there punching F5 waiting for 2998 with that prepared comment? Lame? Well played for timing, but fairly transparent for ambition.
Henry Loose
3002. schrodinger
Freelancer

I got home from doing an architecture assignment, typed it up, and realized it was at 2998. I was so excited that I couldn't wait.

...Ambitious? Moi?... well, maybe a tiny bit.

Okay, a lot.

but as the saying goes: all's fair...
Wilson Grooms
3003. UnwiseOne
Freelancer, back at post 1350 you wrote:

Ahh, I finally found it. After suffering through dozens, if not hundreds, of "Don't know if this has been brought up, because I'm not reading the comments..." comments

I confess, I'm guilty of at least one of those, and if I ever post anything again it's likely to be another one. *Gasp!* Really, a thread like this would have needed to be its own little forum. You have people talking about hundreds of different topics - some adding their own first impressions of the book, others keeping a discussion going on some specific topic that interests them, and yet others perhaps reporting back from a meeting with Mr Sanderson.

I guess you have a point; for someone to chip in with their 2 cents' worth on something brought up in the OP (or worse, in the book itself) they really ought to have read through the 3000+ comments.... and ideally remember what was said where and by whom... However, personally I'm violating this as I write, so I guess I'd better seek refuge in the abovementioned (see, see, I have scanned through some of the comments!) cuendillar bunker??

Here comes the mandatory smiley to take the edge off potential offensiveness of the blatant disregard of the WoT community rules (Don't know if they've been brought up/ exist, because I don't read the comments) displayed in this post.

;-)

I'll try to play nice from now on, and not post again until I've read all the comments, at least in this thread.
Tricia Irish
3004. Tektonica
Freelancer@3001, I don't know whether to be insulted by your supposition....
Do I really seem that young? Don't answer that. (No offense to anyone in their 20's......It's just that I'm far from that.) I think, from some of your posts/references, we are probably in the same peer group. Nick Danger for the bunker?

Very awesome on the Clarence Johnson meeting! The Blackbird is the most beautiful design. Simple, elegant, efficient.

UnwiseOne@3003, Oh, just post away.....they're really very nice and the bunker is clean and well stocked after thanksgiving.
john massey
3005. subwoofer
@Schrodinger- well done! To be honest, I was contemplating taking up the last 10 spots, or 18 or 30 because I am that type of guy, but whatever, I'll live, you have done the loft 3000 far more justice than I could of, actually discussing WoT instead of random Pop trivia. Could of given a few links, but that is me splitting hairs like the knob I am.

@UWO- awwwww let 'er rip. Bottom line, if you have said something already stated, either we let it fly or somebody will politely or not so politely let you know the err of your ways.

-Does anyone want to venture about the secondary characters and how they will fair. Much props to BwS for taking on this task, however I do feel concern about the back seat the Aiel have got wrt the idea Rand had to control the Westlands with them if he could not bring peace. The characters IMHO have lost their voice and I hope they are not just red shirted cannon fodder...

@Me- well done for keeping sane on such a crazy day! You were going to watch this post like a hawk, but the real world interrupted with making money and you took heed and got your priorities misaligned;) You made it to the end of a mixed up week, high paw Sub!

Woof™.
Lynn McDonald
3006. meal6225
Congratulations to Steelblade and MasterAlThor on the birth of child/grandchild. My number 2 child received his first college acceptance letter with money offered!

Will Leigh return on Monday? Please?

I dont think the bunker movie library will be complete without "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".
Thomas Keith
3007. insectoid
Well, 3000 comments in 1 month isn't bad. That's an average of 93.75 comments per day!

SteelBlaidd & M A T: Congrats on the little ones. :)

Nightbaron @2961: BAHAHAhahaha!!

Steel @2971: Rianna is a nice name. But it got me thinking about WoT, and the Big Clue from books 4-6...

According to the EWoT, three of Liandrin's group of Black sisters that Moggy gave assignments to in TFoH ch. 18--Rianna Andomeran, Jeaine Caide, and Berylla Naron--haven't been seen or heard from since then. Does anyone suppose they'll be important in the next book?

Lannis @2979: Elaiffa/Suffaida--nice. ;D

Free @2991: Our family went to the Zoo--which was no worse than attempting to go shopping anywhere.

Schrodinger @3000: Yes, Leigh deserves a present. How about a cinnamon roll?

Tektonica @3004: No offense taken. ;)

meal6225 @3006: Oh boy, here we go again. If we start talking about Monty Python again, there'll be 4000 comments by next week instead of just 3500...
Wilson Grooms
3008. Not Lost?
I think the clue has to do with book 4, "The Dedicated". In fact I think much of the series hinges on that and the preceeding chapter. (2 of the very best in all 12 books) "10,000 Aiel linking arms and singing..." No accident Rand spent time with the Tinkers near the end of TGS.

dead on @2965
Tricia Irish
3009. Tektonica
Was on my way to read Ch.s 25 and 26 that Not Lost mentioned in 3008, and touched on the end of Ch. 24 and have this question/observation:

Mat is in Rhuidean with the Snakes in the ter'angreal. I noted that Mat asked 3 "questions" and they just stared at him, but when he made three "requests", they were granted. 1. Wanted the holes in his brain filled. 2. a way to be free of the Aes Sedai. 3. He asked to leave. What does this tell us about the difference in the 2 doorways and does it pertain to how he will beat the snakes and foxes in the Tower of Genji? (Besides cheating.)

I've been researching the Seanchan POV in books 4-6 for the Big Clue and don't have anything new yet. More later.

Re the Movie Library:

Gotta have Clint Eastwood:
Fist Full of Dollars
For a Few Dollars More
The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
Stacy Berger
3010. anIceFan
I appologize for this all around but...
I seem to recall Min having a viewing of Tuon rescuing Egwene from the white tower. I went looking through the FAQ and I can't find it.
anyway, the point is, I believe that this got resolved in TGS. It was the attack on the tower that allowed Egwene to free herself.
Wilson Grooms
3012. AndrewB
SteelBlaidd & M A T -- congratulations.

@2962 re the pure pool of saidin. IIRC, the pure pool of saidin was used up by Rand at the end of TEoTW. He and Aginor were have a One Power battle (for lack of any other desciption) and Rand "used up" the entire pool. Also, it was after the pool was used up, the others found the Horn of Valere, LTT's banner & the 1st seal.

@2995 re different pigeons. Every time I reread that section, I have always interpreted that Ronde both her pigeons to the White Tower. One was sent north to Tar Valon; the second was sent to Tar Valon via a different route. As I understand it, messengers who sent messages via pigeons (in our world) would frequently send multiple pigeons to ensure that the message was received. A message sent via pigeon is not the most reliable method of communication. Something may happen to the pigeon.

It is my opinion that Avi's message was sent to a Blue sister in the White Tower. It would be like the Blue Ajah to have its agent be the operator of the pigeon service to copy all messages sent onto the Blue (especially if the Blue knew that Ronde was a Yellow agent). I thought that sending the pigeon to the west was just a different route to send the pigeon to Tar Valon so that all 3 pigeons would not arrive at the same time.

I have never sent messages by pigeon so I am only guessing.

@? Somebody above (I appologize for not remembering) mentioned Mogi's BLack sisters who have not been seen since Mogi have them their assignments. I like your guess that this is the clue that BWS said has not been discussed much.

Happy Thanksgivings to all who celebrate this holiday. A happy and healthy holiday season to the non Americans and Canadians.

If there are any JW's out there, sleep well.

I am sure nobody cares, but the following are my choices for movies in the bunker:
all of the LotR movies made by Peter Jackson (not the animated versions from the late 70's;
Godfather I & II;
Platoon;
Star Wars movies (New Hope; Empire Strikes Back; & a Return of the Jedi) [although I do not mind the other 3 movies];
Ferris Bueller's Day Off;
Beverly Hills Cop (just the 1st one);
The Last of the Mohicans (the Daniel Day Lewis movie);
The Original Muppet Movie;
The Jungle Book movie (Disney's 1st cartoon)
[what can I say, I love the Muppets {especially the Muppet variety show & the Jungle Book movie -- nothing beats the Bear Necessesities (sp?)}]; and
Citizens Kane

Thank you for reading my musings.
AndrewB
Jacy Clark
3013. Amalisa
anIceFan@3010

In CoT, Egwene Dreams of clinging to the edge of a cliff. A Seanchan woman climbs down and offers her a hand and tells her they can reach the top together. I may be wrong, but I don't think that Min has seen Egwene since, like, forever - The Great Hunt, maybe?

Freelancer@2991

The problem with Min's viewing of Alivia is that we are told about it after the fact. In WH, Rand asks Min (while they're in Far Madding) if she's had any viewings re Alivia, and Min says she's had many but none that she can understand, or something like that. Then, two chapters later, she tells Rand that a) she likes Alivia but b) Alivia is going to kill Rand. Rand clarifies, as you did, by saying: "You said she was going to help me die. ... Those were your words."

After books and books of being co-observers of Min's viewings, we get thrown this one almost casually. Well, maybe not casually but certainly not "in the moment". I would have expected Min to go off like a rocket over a viewing like that, and certainly not like the woman who was going to have anything to do with Rand's death.

Anyway, as far as the looney theory is concerned (and, again, I can't take credit for it - other than carrying it to the point of coming up with a scenario), having someone kill Rand, then having that someone balefired more or less immediately would meet the requirements, wouldn't it?

Not Lost?@3008

As for the Aiel/Tinker's Song - yes, I believe it is going to be a very important thing. After Tarmon Gai'don. Kind of like Samwise using Galadriel's gift to restore the Shire. On the other hand, the Aiel sing as they go into battle. Wouldn't it be a kick in the head if the Aiel have had the answer all along? Hmmm...

And re page loading issues... some of you may have already figured this out, but I've found that clearing my cache before coming to this page helps a lot.

Is it December yet?? :)
Wilson Grooms
3014. Aye Aye Sedai
Ok more summaries of q/a here
More Q& Few A

Of particular interest was the discussion on Souls and powers and body transmogging. - it appears that he is saying that Lanfear may not be Cyndane (yeah right) but that if she were there is a logical reason for her diminished power level that apparently is not caused by her being stilled and then reborn ( although he does admit his understanding of Cyndane's apparent power was mistaken per Maria) -

Unfortunately this may just kill my lanfear killed Asmp theory that had her being stilled and killed - so it is likely that she had hidden *'angreal (ring of tamrylin anyone) and that perhaps she will not be stilled - just killed and reborn.

Also it is interesting to note that the Finns have vast numbers of Ter'angreal
perhaps it will be part of the mission to deliver/trade for Moraine and perhaps Elayne and Avi will make /create/find the appropriate items.

Also - hinted at another way to destroy cuendillar - what is this- is it possible to reverse the forming weave or perhaps it is a crystalline alignment of the One Power that is disrupted by the True Power and perhaps more One Power can also effect it.

Also - interesting to Note that BS is amazed that he has not had more questions on Verins Roles and Plans - except to avoid the question on Demura (sp?) attack.
Wilson Grooms
3015. Aye Aye Sedai
Oh I forgot to mention that I noticed that it is BS's understanding that Fain's taint has affected Elaida. He noted that many fans forgot that they interacted on screen - but he understands that Fain's taint has accentuated or amplified certain tendencies (paranoia and delusions of Grandeur anyone.)

Oh and above - Asmp = asmo.

Nobody seems to have ever asked about Bela or more importantly if a bonded man can then bond the same woman - permanent circle anyone??

11 more months???? sigh
Henry Loose
3016. schrodinger
new to live you must die theory:

(seriously, not a turducken theory)

To live you must die. To live this time around, to live after TG this time around, The Dragon must die. For Rand to live he must eliminate the need for the Dragon in the future, thus killing The Dragon (if the DO is "dead", the Dragon need not be reborn. So Rand lives, but The Dragon dies.

Once Rand dies of old age, he just goes back to TAR to live the rest of eternity in peace... he's deserved it. (Minaviyne might end up there as well... if you can count that as peacful)
Wilson Grooms
3017. Grijze Vos
Aye Aye Sedai @3014
Is there a possibility Lanfear wanted 3 things from the Eelfinn and after being fulfilled paying the price: being weaker in the OP.
If so; what could that wishes have been.
T C
3018. Freelancer
UnwiseOne@3003

Please do not cherry-pick my words, it makes you sound like an. . .oh, too late. Recall from my comment @1255, that I pointed out how simple Ctrl-F searching for keywords can help you to not repeat as a new theory, one which has already been discussed. I never once suggested that someone be verbatim conversant with everything touched upon here (my words exactly, "You don't have to study each comment to find out if someone has brought up the same idea. Search). I was offering, not a scolding, but advice to actually allow new commentors to seem more informed, rather than less. You, as well as anyone else here, are welcome to comment how, and upon whatever, you please. I am not the keeper of the rules, though you would pretend that I believe myself such. So, do what you think is right, but as a new piece of advice, have something more substantial than a poor attempt at beating a strawman for a full page, when next you feel the need.


Tektonica@3004

I've looked back aways, and it seems that another poster who first appeared at around the same time as you was indeed a young adult lady, and I somehow conflated my remembrance of the comments. I assure you, it was not for a supposition of immaturity on your part that I had banked my misinformed assumption. Your comments are always substantial in their content, and I am quite glad that you're among us.


Tektonica@3009

Well, if you're going to toss the Spaghetti westerns on the pile, might as well add Two Mules for Sister Sarah. The look on Hogan's face when she was greeted by her "sisters" near the end...


anIceFan@3010

It's actually not Tuon. Here:
She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. she had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a holt that wrenched her arms. feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. there was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. the edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the coulds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! they had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!


Now, one might argue that since the Seanchan woman isn't named, it could still be Tuon. But I suspect Egwene would have shown concern over being pulled up from a precipice by someone of Tuon's miniscule stature.
Henry Loose
3019. schrodinger
Freelancer

the seanchan woman is, in my opinion, either: a) a representation of the seanchan nation, b)Egeanin, or c)Tylee

my vote is for Tylee

(I also think its funny that the seanchan have southern drawls and have a general named tyLEE)
Barry T
3020. blindillusion
schrodinger@3016

To live you must die. To live this time around, to live after TG this time around, The Dragon must die. For Rand to live he must eliminate the need for the Dragon in the future, thus killing The Dragon (if the DO is "dead", the Dragon need not be reborn. So Rand lives, but The Dragon dies.


I don't know, but I cannot see a complete end to the DO being possible. After all, what's good without evil, or some such philosophical postulating?

I'm of the opinion, and I suppose many people will disagree, that Rand has to take Moridin out of the Pattern forever, i.e. no possibility of re-birth, to make this the Last Battle {with the Dark One}. Granted, this thought ends with a "no need for the 'Dragon'" scenario as well, so I suppose these theories can co-exist....

…And as Rand dies his soul is placed into Moridin's body. Sure, there's still the need to complete the DO's prison, but I'm rather flabbergasted as to how that will be accomplished. Though one could reason that the "sparks" Min sees have something to do with this. They are, after all, trying to "fill" the Shadow. Could that be something other than catchy symbolism for the War between the Light and the Shadow?

and for those who don't like the thought of Rand being placed into mini-Evil's body...well, didn't Moridin's "shell" start as an innocent Borderlander?

I hope eveyone had a happy Thanksgiving.

Oh, SteelBlaidd@2971

Thanks for the defense there. After all, if it hadn't been for movies like the Last Unicorn, Flight of Dragons, Willow, Legend and, of course, The Princess Bride, I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking with you fine folks.
Rob Munnelly
3021. RobMRobM
@3020. To have you missing from this group would be ....Inconceivable!

By the way, what is Flight of the Dragons? Never heard of that one. Rob
john massey
3022. subwoofer
I dunno, I am still scratching my head (and no, I do not have fleas) about the whole Moridin angle. IMHO it reeks like a stinky red fish meant to throw us off from the battle between Rand and D.O. proper possibly represented by Demandred. I am also wondering about the introduction of the Super Fade... what is the purpose of it and in the Big Battle, who will take it down? Things that make me go...

Woof™.
john massey
3023. subwoofer
Oh yeah, while I am at it, I forgot a few pivotal movies in my life:

White Fang
All Dogs Go to Heaven
Lassie Come Home
A Dog of the Regiment
Benji
Homeward Bound
Best in Show
Beethoven
Lady and the Tramp
Turner and Hooch

And although the artist's name is contrary to my nature, I could attempt to belt out this tune with Free:)

Woof™.
Richard Fife
3024. R.Fife
@2989 Amalisa: I'd imagine the boat is more a reference to our legend of King Arthur. When he died, he was placed on a boat and the "Three Queens of Magic" were on the boat and ferried him to Avalon. one thing I find interested is that they talk about a funeral bier, but have we seen a culture yet that burned its dead? Borderlanders bury (last embrace of mother), Sea Folk commit to the sea, Aiel bury (standing up, facing the sun), and all the other nations seem to have traditional graves too.

@2992 Tom Hendriks:
Heya, thanks for joining up. I will point out that BwS has stated that Elayne was the only plot thread that was "ready" for TG, and all the others needed to catch up to her, so I have a feeling she is going to get little more than some lip service in ToM. To which I am not sorry. *ahem*

As to Taim, I am still of the opinion that Demandred's "army" is the Black Tower, and Taim is his proxy. It may be a small stretch to call the corrupted (and possible 13x13'd) Asha'man an army, but I think even a hundred or so of them is equal to a few hundred thousand regular troops. Dumai's Well, anyone, when they were still only a few months trained and of lesser numbers?

@3021 Flight of Dragons is an absolutely awesome cartoon about a modern day writer and scientific mind being zoomed back in time to when magic was still around and having to help the good wizards defeat the evil wizard so they can make a last sanctuary for themselves (as the advent of science was killing magic). Also, James Earl Jones voiced the evil wizard. And there were dragons, lots of dragons. Loosely (very loosely) based on a book of the same name.

To the hint, the only thing that bugs me about Moggy's missing Black Ajah is that BwS insinuates that the "hint" has been brought up several times in semi-unimportant ways. As I recall, those BA disappeared in book 5 then were perhaps only mentioned co-incidentally in book 7 by the BA in Ebou Dar. Of course, I'm only about 1/5 of the way through TPoD right now, so I may be forgetting hints from later. So I guess it could fit.

What about Shara in general being the clue. It is talked about in remote passing here and there, but not much is ever said. I don't think its the 3rd continent, as that has not even managed to show up in the text proper, only in the BBoBA.
Anita Reynolds
3025. bobbins
I promised myself that I would not comment until I had finished the book and all of the comments. And I have finally caught up. (thank goodness for Thanksgiving slowing some of you down.)

At the Lexington, KY (Nov 10) signing Harriet said that she had read some adamant statements, (at on line sites) about what was BWS and what was written by RJ and stated that: "in every case that she had seen, the remark was 1oo% wrong"

SteelBladd Congratulations, babies are a wonderful experience, And after 4 all natural, homebirths (yes I am an old hippy why do you ask?) I will help with the giving of grief if BWS gets it wrong.
M A T Congratulations, grand babies are better than babies, (until you have the raising of one in which case they act more like babies.

Is it stated anywhere that Perrin finds the song? Cause Elayne has the I-pod thing...could it be on that? Or in the Kimbal? I want to at least see the directories for those things.
Anita Reynolds
3026. bobbins
That is Kendle not Kimbal.

Leave me alone, I am old, and full of leftovers.
Wilson Grooms
3027. alreadymadwithkindle
You mean Kindle.
Anita Reynolds
3028. bobbins
Yes, that is what I meant. So much for being clever.
R B
3029. MasterAlThor
I have returned....like McAurthur.

I still have a little cough but it is much better than laying completely immobile on the couch and watching football till my eyes bleed....

WHAT AM I SAYING!!!!

Egh....anyway. On with the insanity.

Turducken....love it. Wife and I laughed for a good 30 min.

Samadai. Thank you for asking my question, but I didn't ask it right because I wanted to know about the effects it had on saidar. Oh well.

I was watching a lot of tv with my kids. They like this show called Penguins of Madagascar (yeah I like it too). It reminded me of some of you guys.

Skipper/R.Fife
Kowalski/Freelancer
Rico/Subwoofer
Private/Insectoid

Reasons are self evident. Check it out is you get the chance. Very funny.

I may even be inspired to write a scene. That will be funny. Just have to figure out how to get the WoT element in there.

Ok....I will post some more later. Gotta check some things.
Tina A
3030. Tinaa
Re-reading 4 through 6, don't think this has to do with the big clue, but please can anyone help me with this?

In tSR, chapter 42 A Missing Leaf, Perrin is dodging Slayer after Loial locked the waygate. Slayer is chatting to throw Perrin off balance and mentions 'the renegade'

“It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died.” Slayer’s voice became angry. “The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck than the White Tower.”

Just who is this renegade?
Henry Loose
3031. schrodinger
possible clue in books 4-6: bubbles of evil start appearing in the first part of book 4. I don't know how widely discussed they are.



the renegade slayer is discussing is Fain.
Lynn McDonald
3032. meal6225
#3007 Insectoid My apologies if my movie suggestion was a repeat. I have skipped sections of this thread
and shall put on white for a year and a day.

3030 Tiana--I think the renegade he is referring to is
Fain. Nobody likes that guy!
David
3033. whoami
Could the book 4-6 thing be the ripples of reality that appeared in Knife of Dreams?

These ripples also appeared when the Bore was created in book 4, and may indicate that the seals are breaking.
Wilson Grooms
3034. Not Lost?
Did any one notice (going back to book 4, chap 26 again) that the soldier who reports on LTT's strike at Shayol Ghul wore a helmet like the Seanchan? What is the connection?
Wilson Grooms
3035. Chriscot
@3031 - bubbles of evil appeared prior to book 4. The first that I recall was in the beginning of book 2 - Rand is caught in the air, while practing swordwork with Lan in Fal Dara, iirc.

@3033 - the Bore was created in the Age of Legends, when Mierin/Lanfear and Beidomon drilled a hole the Dark One's prison. What are you referring to in book 4?

However, the ripples in Knife of Dreams remain weird to me - I'd sort of written 'em off as weird bubbles of evil or a sort of generic "the Dark One stirs" - but it'd be cool if they occurred when a Seal was broken. I don't buy it, though, since the two Seals Elayne and Nynaeve brought out of Tanchico broke without anyone knowing anything had happened.
David
3036. whoami
Book 4 has Rand's journey through the pillars in Rhuidean. That's where we see the Bore created and the first occurrence of the ripples.
David
3037. whoami
In fact, in hard cover, page 306 of the Shadow Rising

"the ground rippled under their feet. The air rippled, too, in spreading waves."

This happened at the time the Bore was created.
Henry Loose
3038. schrodinger
Chriscot@3035

I don't believe that the wind at the top of the tower in TGH was a bubble of evil, just generic "Evil-o-the-Blight". As Lan said, strange things happen near the blight. Besides, all the bubbles of evil had something really out of the ordinary happening (such as the first one in Tear, or trek to Rhuidean incident where physical shapes actually got up and attacked RMP/RM) The wind acting weird is not in the same category as a bubble of evil.

Whoami was referring to when Rand went through the Ancestitron in Rhuidean and when one of his ancestors, who was an Aiel for Mierin/Lanfear, saw the creation of the bore. (whoops! you got there before me, whoami... :-) )
Thomas Keith
3039. insectoid
meal6225 @3032: Actually it isn't; but often when MP is brought up the residents of the bunker start spouting quotes. ;)
Henry Loose
3040. schrodinger
another possibility for the clue that BwS mentions: breaking the rules. I think that in TSR it is for the first time that the game of snakes and foxes is mentioned, and that the only way to win is to cheat. Also in TSR, Rand, after coming back from Rhuidean, mentions to Mat that he's going to do something that Mat should like; he's going to break the rules in a way that nobody expects. I'll see if this is mentioned later throughout books 4-6.
Maiane Bakroeva
3041. Isilel
R.Fife @3024:

Re: burning the dead, Aes Sedai seem to do it, at least sometimes. Tamra in NS, Anaya and Kairen whenever they were murdered (WH?) all got funeral pyres.

As to Taim, I am still of the opinion that Demandred's "army" is the Black Tower, and Taim is his proxy. It may be a small stretch to call the corrupted (and possible 13x13'd) Asha'man an army, but I think even a hundred or so of them is equal to a few hundred thousand regular troops.

Too many big fish in a small pond, IMHO. Moridin (whose color scheme Taim favors), Osan'gar, Taim himself who is prbably a Neo-Forsaken and now Demandred's main focus? All for a couple of hundreds of Asha'man? When the other side will have several _thousands_ of channelers of both genders? Doesn't compute to me.

Asha'man were as effective as they were because they had advantage of surprise. Nobody really knew how to fight a body of trained male channelers and moreover both at the Wells and at the Manor they had all terrain advantages on their side. An army led by a good general, with channeling support of his own would deal with them handily.

However, it is a good point that armies without channeler contingent are going to be relatively worthless - which is why Murandy, Whitecloaks or even the Borderlanders wouldn't merit Demandred's primary focus, IMHO.

Shara now, with all those conveniently labeled and wholly ignorant male channelers... and whatever DFs there are among female channelers - now _that_ would be a prize, IMHO. No culling there, so superior OP strength, presumably. And normal people are accustomed to have orders "transmitted" to them by the female Ayyad, so it would be relatively easy to spin things so that there is a conventional army too, one that can use gateways.

Demandred may have been taking Shara, walled settlement by walled settlement, without anybody the wiser for the last few books. Not even Graendal, who doesn't think in terms of channeling armies.
Tricia Irish
3042. Tektonica
Freelancer@3018

Nice to know you didn't think I was just flailing around here, but my tongue was firmly in my cheek ;). I do tend to be a Big Picture person, rather than the very detailed, fact gather some of you wonderful experts are, which makes me very thankful for you! I really enjoy the depth of research and plethora of theories on these threads. I don't think I have a single friend here at home that reads Fantasy or SciFi, so this discussion with all of you is a real treat!

Re: Movie List,

Two Mules for Sister Sarah is another goodie. I only listed my Old School faves, as most of the newer films were already in the Bunker Library. Some of my list are rather slowly paced, but, being in the visual arts, I chose many for their visual beauty as well as message, plot, character, ie: Lawrence of Arabia, Once Upon a Time in the West, 2001.

Isilel@3041 and a few others,

I find it odd that the Big Clue, and specifically Demandred in Shara, wouldn't get a bigger story line. I know it would make the series probably two books longer, but it sounds really interesting to have explored.

Shara's OP forces are probably very strong, as you said, no culling, but why would they care to come west and fight? Motivation? Escape, maybe??

The Borderlanders do have the 13 Aes Sedai with them to use the OP. Of course, they have to be threatened......their behavior is still baffling to me.

Did a reread of Rand's adventure in the Ancestatron and I think we might find lot more clues in there....Ogier singing (Do the Seanchan Ogier (Gardners!) have the song?), the beetle like helmuts of the soldiers (Seanchan again), ripples during the boring of the bore, foreshadowning of the destruction of the Aiel, again? Perhaps a return to the Way of the Leaf?

Think I'll go over to the 13th D and poke around. What other sources would anyone recommend for research?
Richard Fife
3043. R.Fife
Isilel @ 3041 I will note with Shara that while they do mark the faces of all boys born of Ayyad (or even a half-Ayyad union), they let them breed a few times then kill them. I doubt there is really all that large a population of male Ayyad. I will grant you the no-culling thing, though.

One thing that bothers me about Shara is that it's either going to be a left field (especially since the vast majority that is known about it is from the non-canonical and out-of-series BBoBA), or it would have to be a large plot thread, which I am of the opinion there shouldn't be any more. As per Harriet at JordanCon, there are supposed to be two massive climaxes in each book. I'd say Egwene uniting the Tower and Rand laughing on DM definately counts as too. Next book should have a Perrin-plot and Mat-plot climax, then who can say what the two major victories of Tarmon Gaidin will be. Perhaps a Minas Tirith style victory, then a Frodo, er, Rand in the Pit of Doom victory. I guess Shara could be the evil army, except it isn't "needed".

You know, we could be over analysing this way too much, and Demandred is the forsaken actually in charge of getting all the Trollocs and Shadowspawn ready so that Moridin can sit around and mope.
Richard Fife
3044. R.Fife
Oh, also to the fish in a pond comment (not picking on Isilel, honest! Others have said it too).

O'gar is dead (possibly to be resurrected yet again, we will see), and while Taim likes black and red, it isn't like that isn't a popular "look at me, I'm evil" color scheme. The color's could be a red herring. Also, Forsaken can work together (or even be made subservient bitches). O'gar's job was to get next to Rand, and he did it via becoming an Asha'man.

Demandred, if he even feigns to be an Asha'man, would be higher rank, probably second to Taim. Although, I have a feeling that he isn't. More likely, any Alter-ego Demandred has is just so he can go around and get info first hand without having to solely rely on his proxies that he doesn't want to know he is Forsaken.

So, I think the Black Tower is solely Demandred's project, ruled via proxy Taim, and O'gar was just briefly collaborating so that he could get next to Rand. Moridin has nothing to do with it, save from possibly having been Taim's initial teacher as Ishy. Anyone want to bet a gold crown on it?
john massey
3045. subwoofer
Whew! Sorry folks, have a new woofer, 5 month old border collie cross from the reservation( have a pic on my profile)and she needs lots of exercise! I love Lucy!

Hard to read with big loving eyes looking at me- told my wife to go away- heh- anyways, I was studying a few chapters and pondering. Wish I was this studious in school. I am inclined to agree with the Fifester in regards to Demandred. In the prologue, BwS takes time to reflect on Demandred from Graendal's POV.
He stood their, handsome and hawk-nosed, his lips drawn in perpetual anger... Yes, he was a cold one. Perhaps Graendal underestimated him. he very well might be the most powerful of the three, more dangerous than Semirhage. Shew as emotionless and controlled, true, but sometimes emotion was appropriate. It could drive a mand like Demandred to actions that a more coolheaded person couldn't even contemplate.


I know it has been said but I will agree that Mesaana is a White AS in the Tower.

Seanchan and Aiel...
"And the people who have these are the same people with whom al'Thor whishes to make peace?" Sorilea shook her head. "Creation of these abominations alone should warrant a blood feaud. I heard that there were others like it. What of those?"
Methinks that either Caddy is a baddy or one of the Aiel are going to the Dark Side. Reason being is that Moridin wanted to show Rand pain and suffering and it seems that Caddy and the Aiel have done just that. Unfortunately for Mor, it gave Rand the motivation to discover laughter again and focus, but still. Not sure. Maybe one of the gurus can give me clarity on their thoughts of the situation.

I am just here for my beeps and whirrs and to regurgitate weapons...

Dune.

Woof™.
Tess Laird
3046. thewindrose
A couple idea's on the Forsaken.
We have Osan'gar acting as Dashiva, there by command of Moridin.

I think Taim has been instructed by a Forsaken before they all broke out of their prision - except of course Ishamael - so it looks likely that Ishamael was the master at that time. We know The Forsaken have used the same people that another Forsaken is using(another one of those great perks to becoming a dark firend;). So Demandred could be be using Taim as a proxy at this time.

I think Demandred is a loose cannon, he has not been brought into subservience to Moridrin(at least I have not read anything suggesting this). So Taim wears black and red now, and that suggests working for Moridrin -but that could be a red herring. Or it could be an example of Taim doing double duty.

Something from Winters Heart that hasn't been talked of much - from chapter 35 With the Choedan Kal - On Tremalking the Time of Illusions is at an end. I don't think we really reviewed this that much? An entire race mass commits suicide. They have ties to the Sea Folk, and where are they from originally? Why was it nessessary for Alviarian to be there to witness it(help it along?). So - it's not 4-6 but a mystrey...
Wilson Grooms
3047. alreadymadwithdemandred
Isilel @3041
I like the Shara idea. Except that I don't see how Graendal would have gone to the risk of obtaining prizes from among the Ayyad solely for the purpose of misleading Sammael if Demandred had been there.

R.Fife @3043
Certainly possible. However I don't see the task of getting Trollocs and Shadowspawn ready being complicated enough to warrant a general of Demandred's skill. It doesn't take much to make them toe the line. He said that "our rule is secure". Rule usually implies humans.
@3044
I think it was mentioned early on that various of the Forsaken were also assigned a specific person/group to watch out for. Halima/Aran'gar was to watch over Egwene and the Salidar AS. Osan'gar was to watch over Rand. Both of the gars by this time were taking orders from Moridin.
Wilson Grooms
3048. Rukaiya
This question isn't really about The Gathering Storm, but something I've encountered during my re-read and figured the resident gurus might be able to remember something applicable. Why are the Aiel the People of the Dragon? Is it ever explained? We find out in The Shadow Rising that the ancestors of the Aiel served the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, but there's nothing that particularly links them to Lews Therin Telamon. They seem to serve all Aes Sedai. But post-Breaking, Aiel clan chiefs emerge from Rhuidean wearing the symbol specifically linked to the Dragon. Is Rhuidean itself connected to the Dragon somehow? Maybe the Jenn Aiel and the last Aes Sedai were paving the way for prophecy's fulfillment?
Tricia Irish
3049. Tektonica
R.Fife@3043

LOL: Demandred organizing the DO's troops so Moridan can sit around and mope. Isn't it the truth! We sure don't get alot of info on what the FS are up to....I'm still betting Dem is in Murandy or masquerading as King Roedran with a human army.

Rukaiya@3048,

I'm certainly not one of the resident gurus, but I think I can some light on the People of the Dragon issue......When Rand goes through the Ancestatron in Rhuidean, one of his past iterations' grandfather served LTT and gets killed for it, and he was an AOL Aiel. Ergo, the AOL Aiel served LTT, before he went nuts and started killing everyone. My guess is that some of the Aes Sedai were involved as well, and yes, they preserved the various 'Angreal for the next go round on the Wheel. See Book 4, Ch. 25-26.
Birgit
3050. birgit
.When Rand goes through the Ancestatron in Rhuidean, one of his past iterations' grandfather served LTT and gets killed for it, and he was an AOL Aiel. Ergo, the AOL Aiel served LTT, before he went nuts and started killing everyone.

The Da'shain Aiel who was killed was a servant of Mierin (Lanfear), not LTT. LTT was an AS and therefore must have had Aiel servants, but it is not clear where the connection between Aiel and the Dragon comes from.
Wilson Grooms
3051. Violetdancer
Re: the song

When I read the prophesy at the end of TGS, I wondered who or what the many might be. Your comments regarding the Tinker's song gave me an idea.

Different groups know a part of the song: Tinkers, Aiel, Ogier, as well as anyone who has been through the rings at Rhuidean. Perhaps all they need to do is compare notes to make the many voices. Aviendha will have just been a witness and may put it together.

I'm curious how the Nym will be brought back from the tree in the Blight that Loial sang.
Wilson Grooms
3052. alreadymadwiththepeople
People of the Dragon actually started out as a misnomer. The Da'shain served all Aes Sedai. But as the War of Power progressed they became increasingly identified with the highest ranking leader of the Aes Sedai, Lews Therin Telamon the Dragon himself. Until the name just stuck.
john massey
3053. subwoofer
I still scratch my head at the mass suicide of the Amayar. They are supposed to be the water version of Tinkers and are peaceful. I gather they study stars or something or maybe a race of seers. The End of Illusions may be the sea version of the Last Battle. Either way, I don't see pacifists fighting this one out so I guess they gave up hope.

I am also uncomfortable at the idea of Aiel Dark Friends. Mat's ex was one but what would it take to change the basic nature on an Aiel? They are a warrior society that lives and breaths Ji'e'toh. The idea of becoming a DF should incur much toh for them. Even their very oath
"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last day."
brooks little room for a truce or alliance with the Shadow. Maybe that is the 13x13 thing.

Dog is calling, gotta go

Woof™.
Lindy Brown
3054. lbrown
AndrewB @ 3012
Every time I reread that section, I have always interpreted that Ronde both her pigeons to the White Tower. One was sent north to Tar Valon; the second was sent to Tar Valon via a different route.


I thought it was fairly well established that the pigeon sent by Ronde to the west was to the Seanchan. The Seanchan were in the west at that time and we see Ronde with the Seanchan later. She's the one who gave them forkroot.


Freelancer @ 3018
Plus Tuon is unlikely to be wearing a sword on her back.


schrodinger @ 3019
Yes, I agree with you. I think it will be Egeanin or Tylee.


Tektonica @ 3042
I find it odd that the Big Clue, and specifically Demandred in Shara, wouldn't get a bigger story line. I know it would make the series probably two books longer, but it sounds really interesting to have explored.


I agree. I've always been fascinated by Shara and wished that that land would be more fully explored. I suppose Noal could tell us a lot about it, if he chose to.
Ron Garrison
3055. Man-0-Manetheran
@ 3041. Isilel, et al

Male channelers in Shara "when they reach their twenty-first year or show signs of channelling, whichever comes first, are put to death and cremated." (TGS Glossary) Therefore, I'm thinking there might not be many left available. Of course, we don't know how long Demandred might have been working on this - if indeed he has been. Or, he could be using the women I suppose...

In the Land of Madmen, if it is indeed where the Sea Folk exile their male channelers, there might be the makings of an army.

At this point, Demandred speculation is rather pointless. I think it is just RAFO.

Just finished the slow read of TGS. The last four chapters are chocked full of imagery and important stuff. Here is one puzzle:

Rand is in the Heart of the Stone. There. Lews Therin said. We stood there. ... Fighting the Seanchan wasn't our first failure, Lews Therin whispered. No, our first failure happened here. In this hallway.

I went back and read all of the battle in the Stone, and the only thing I can find that might be considered a mistake would be that Rand didn't balefire Ba'alzamon. But that doesn't satisfy me. Anyone else have a clue?
Wilson Grooms
3056. hello578
the failure in the hallway was not being able to revive the dead girl
Ron Garrison
3057. Man-0-Manetheran
Thanks hello578. That was sort of what was implied in TGS, and I know it weighs on Rand heavily. That was in the back of my head as I went to read it again. I went all the way to the end of TDR, and it was not there. It must be in the next book as a flash back (?) I don't remember.
Wilson Grooms
3058. Chriscot
@3055 - Rand's first failure was the failure to resurrect the little girl with Callandor. You can see in this scene that, by this point, "Lews Therin's voice" is as much or more the voice of Rand (the original kind-hearted Rand personality) rather than the voice of his past life.

The failure is that, for all his power, he couldn't save or make right things for that little girl...or all the others who will die. It's part of his despair and near-death, before he remembers that as long as the Wheel turns there will be second chances for life and love.
Ron Garrison
3059. Man-0-Manetheran
Well, thematically, that makes perfect sense. I guess I was looking too deeply for something missed. I hope that Big Clue in Books 4-6 wasn't a little trick on BWS's part. Come on Leigh. Let's start up the re-read again!
Wilson Grooms
3060. BenM
Wow, are you folks prolific. I got my book on that Thursday, finished most of it before work Friday, finished the rest when I got home. I've wanted to read all the posts, got to 800-900, you guys have 3000 already, yikes. I decided I'll never catch up at this rate. I just read the 2800-end. Anyway, before I get to TGS, let me add a few movies:

A Few Good Men
Back to the Future
DeJaVu
Entrapment
Equilibrium
Frequency
I Robot
Knight's Tale
Matrix I and II (was that a joke? There ARE sequels. III was ok, didn't like the ending very much, though it was probably realistic that that was the best the good guys could do.)
Maverick (another comic relief movie)
Minority Report
Miracle
The Net
Next
Ocean's 11 (not 12 or 13)
Paycheck (in spite of Affleck playing the good guy.)
Premonition
Thomas Crowne Affair
Wilson Grooms
3061. BenM
Taking a page from BwS, I'll divide my comments into 3 (or more) posts.

Mesaana: Maybe we're being too exclusive saying Mes is this or that. What's to say she wasn't pretending to be AS, then switched to a novice, then maybe to a servant, etc.? Ways to defeat OR? Hmm, Be out of the Tower, Illusion of channeling on the OR, Doesn't think of herself as DF, be impersonating a non-AS...

Masema: at last, and good riddance. I think Demandred was the "Dragon Reborn"

Perrin and Faile: I never hated her viscerally like so many seem to, though she WAS annoying re: Berelain. That seems to be a thing of the past, glad she finally gave Perrin a break. (The rescue dragged on way too long, of course.)

Demandred: I think he's at the BT, maybe Murandy, I doubt Shara

Rand: Good job on descent into darkness, and recovery. Glad Min's ok. When he was collared, and then took the TP, it was like, Oh crap, NOT good. Semi and Elza got their just desserts. When he BF'd an entire fortress, I was like "holy crap, did he just do that?". Many of his scenes were just chilling. Still, I think he was right about Graendal, and her minions. Very clever, in a sense, more than he gives himself credit for.
Wilson Grooms
3062. BenM
Egwene: Definitely awesome. She's been one of my favorite characters in the last few books. Well done. She was good, but made some mistakes. I don't think her MoA were excessive.

Avienda: I wasn't 100% sure the punishments were a test, at first. The seeds, for example, didn't seem that much different from some of the other punishments WO have doled out in the past (e.g. Find one red grain of sand.) I did SUSPECT that it was a test. I basically knew once they started getting to the REAL da'tsang tasks, like moving rocks back and forth. Interesting view into Aiel ways.

Gawyn: again, never hated him. I always liked him. He was an honorable guy, though quick to make snap judgements without knowing all the facts. Still and all, it's about time someone set him straight. As for Egw, his point of view is understandable. Last he knew, she was just accepted, and now all of a sudden (to him) they prop her up as Amyrlin. He's not really far wrong. Egw herself even kind of sees it, how both Towers raised her for underhanded reasons, and in fear.

"Sealed to the Flame": didn't that mean just the Amyrlin, and anyone else who already knew something? Shouldn't they have said "Sealed to the Hall" or something? "Sealed to the Ring" would be just AS and accepted, right? "Sealed to the Tower" would include novices, if I'm not mistaken.

prophecy: I used to think that Seanchan prophecy was all corrupted. But I'm not so sure about Seanchan prophecy any more. Now, I know both sets of prophecies can't be 100% true. My opinion is, most of the Randland prophecies are correct, some of the Seanchan ones. Maybe Rand will make a token kneel, just to get a treaty, for example.

Mat: Except for the first part, calling women goats, very funny. The dice analogy, went a little overboard at the end, but it was priceless, and sorry ladies, in general, he's dead right. I didn't take the Hinderstrap scene as a zombie movie ripoff, just another Bubble O' Evilness. It was actually kind of a fun story. I don't think it hurt anything having it in there. Even if it wasn't, how much more could BwS do in just this one book? I don't think he'd want to take away from ToM.
Wilson Grooms
3063. BenM
Favorite lines from Mat's scenes:

"They are nefarious creatures indeed."

"By the time they're done... you'll be left with no coin, several lists' worth of errands to run... and a splitting headache. You'll sit there and stare at the table and begin to wonder, just maybe, if those dice didn't read twos after all. If only to preserve what's left of your sanity."

"I half believe that if I were to peek into your tent at night, I'd find you mumbling it in your sleep. 'I'm going to keep bloody gambling! Bloody, bloody gambling and drinking! Where's my bloody drink? Anyone want to gamble for it?'"

Sheriam: Not entirely surprised that she's BA. Verin, I was like Oh, crap, when she first revealed herself to Egwene. I never had really believed her to be Black, just "very dark brown", or purple of some sort. So near and yet so far. Verin=MoA, for sure. I wonder if some of her letters were for Perrin, and possibly others. What she said to Mat, I believe her. Most BA learn to avoid outright lies most of the time, and Mat IS very strongly ta'veren.

Tuon: When I saw the chapter title, I was like, don't even tell me that after everything Mat went through, and finally getting married, his wife is dead. I don't like the new name. I don't know that "lady luck" is intentional. I can kind of see RJ having the same "Oh, God, no" reaction to that that he had to "death took him"= Moridin. But who knows?

I wonder if Verin saw her end when Rand used the portal in TGH?

I agree with Suian. It was the SEANCHAN for crying out loud! For all she knew, Egwene could have been captured and taken away. They did succeed with one of the Amyrlins, after all. It would really suck if they got Egwene too. (Suffa, bwah-HAHAHAHAHAH. BAD damane!)

I think that we may be making the "The three shall be one" way more complicated than it needs to be. I think it just means that Callandor, not the CK, should be used in TG. (Of course, the CK is a moot point now, anyway.)

Cads: while she certainly can be annoying, she's more of a proper, diginified AS than most nowadays. Still, it was enjoyable to see Tam stand up to her the one time.
Lindy Brown
3064. lbrown
Man-0-Manetheran @ 3055-

That scene where Rand tries to revive the little girl is in the beginning of The Shadow Rising, when Trollocs attack the Stone of Tear.
Henry Loose
3065. schrodinger
Loony Theory time:

I think the Ring of the Tamyrlin is going to show up in one of the last two books as a huge power weapon for team light. I think that it is actually what Taim and Logain's fight will be over (Taim learns location, Logain learns location, they go there, fight, cause huge unspeakable damage, and Logain wins)... Might also fulfill Min's "halo of glory" over Logain's head Viewing.
Bouke de Boer
3066. Bouke
schrodinger @3065, re: Tamyrlin Ring.
It would be nice for the Ring to be a powerful tool. Also, since it was mentioned in the very first Prologue of the whole series, it is very fitting that it should be used to end the series as well, i.e. play a pivotal role in TG.

schrodinger @2999.
Very, very sneaky...

daggers @2996, re: Min's viewing of Birgitte.
Thanks! At the office right now, but will look it up tonight.

Freelancer @2995, re Ronde's pigeons.
I agree, that is one left very open. lbrown stated that the second one went to the Seanchan @3054, but where does that leave the third? And more specifically, to whom were they sent?

Tom Hendriks @2992, re: the royal line of Andor.
Yes, this could mean that Elayne has a major part to play. However, while I'm sure she does (as one of Rand's three women and being a significant force with the OP), I'm not sure whether this is related to Elaida's Foretelling.
Since we don't know exactly when Elaida had the Foretelling, it could have referred to Tigraine mothering Rand. If that is true (and I for one believe it is), then I'm ROFLMOA at Elaida's misinterpretation! Yet another proof of her stupidity.

Also, yay for the Netherlands! Where do you live? I'm currently residing in our nation's great capital, Amsterdam.
And on a side note for everyone else: I usually abbreviate Amsterdam to a'dam. Is that to be considered frightening?

Amalisa @2989, re: Rand resurrected by balefire.
I don't think that scenario works in combination with the funeral bier Foretellings/Viewings. Plus, that card has already been played for Mat, so unless Perrin will get the same experience, I don't think it fits well in the series, things being balanced and all that.

Subwoofer @2978, re: Big Clue and Slayer+Ghengej+'Finns.
I'm doing the re-read of Books 4-6 on the Perrin thread, and have gone through TSR now. Apart from that thread and the Tinkers, there doesn't seem to be much there.
TSR is where Slayer is introduced, but the Tower has been seen in TEOTW (by Mat). Also, I think Slayer was just trying to trick Perrin into entering the tower by stepping out of T'A'R next to it, thus ending his trail there.


Here's to hoping my next post will be at the WoT re-read for ACOS: Cheers!
Bouke de Boer
3067. Bouke
Oh, and to Various @various, re: Shara.
It will have to play a role, right? I mean, there are no loose threads in WOT. Even minor characters are not introduced without reason (excluding a handful of peasants, innkeepers, and soldiers), so why is Shara in the storyline, if not to be revisited later on?
OK, so maaaaaybe it's not where Demandred is hiding. But to just leave it lying there? I have a hard time believing that...

Edit:
Bouke @3066:
Here's to hoping my next post will be at the WoT re-read for ACOS

Hmm, that one went down the drain instantly, didn't it?

So here goes again:
Here's to hoping my next post will be at the WoT re-read for ACOS!
Matthew Smith
3068. blocksmith
SteelBlaid

Congratulations! Beautiful daughter.

MAT@2969

Congrats, Grandparent!

And you were so right on Highlander...The line in the movie should have been "There should be only one".

Freelancer@2916

A couple of things four years in NROTC (and the instructors) taught me...F-18s were the better true fighters while the F-14 (and the Phoenix) missile system was the best long-distance enforcer. This from pilots I actually spoke to.

Lannis@2943

How could I forget Shawshank?

Originally, I had thought the Seanchan saving Egwene was a symbol for the Seanchan in general helping her. If this dream represented the Seanchan attack, I guess this would be true. However, it doesn't seem correct that Egwene attacking and killing Seanchan in defense of the Tower jives with this dream. Therefore, I feel that future help from a specific Seanchan, my guess it Tylee as well, will be forthcoming.

Finally, and I may have missed in the comments, but will someone please bring Blazing Saddles to the bunker?
Rob Munnelly
3069. RobMRobM
As discussed in prior re-read posts, I have been reading various fantasy and sci-fi books written over the past 25 years or so as identified through group recommendations. Here is my review of the Farseer books by Robin Hobb.

Hobb is a woman writer and actually has three trilogies and associated short stories set in this particular world. I read the first trilogy (Assassin's Apprentice, Royal Assassin and Assassin's Quest) focused on Fitzchivalry Farseer, bastard son of the crown price who shows up on the royal family's doorstep at age six, is raised in thes stables by his father's man, is brought into the royal household and trained as a secret assassin for the crown by another royal bastard, and is possessor in some degree of both of the forms of magic of this world (the Farseer "skill" magic to communicate with and control people across distances; and the despised and feared "Wit" magic to communicate with animals).

I also read the Tawny Man trilogy, which picks up Fitz's story 15 years after the momentous events Fitz was centrally involved in that closed out the first trilogy. (The middle trilogy is the Liveship trilogy and is set in a country far to the south of the Six Duchies area ruled by the Farseers - but I am aware there is some overlap in characters and storylines.)

I loved both trilogies. Complex and sophisticated storytelling that highlights the very complicated life of Fitz, who is both heroic and flawed and has to battle with a difficult set of public and secret obligations to the Farseers and those with whom he is close. The other major characters also also well drawn and memorable. Some might see the stories as slow moving but I found them appropriately paced for the build up that happens during the course of both trilogies.

I'll shortly follow with my other review that I owe the group.

Rob
Rob Munnelly
3070. RobMRobM
One pet peeve re my Farseer review above - the covers of the paperback editions I read gave away too much of the story. The first one showing a picture of Fitz as a child with some dogs is neutral but the second one (Fitz with another animal) discloses a development that does not occur until mid-book and the third one (which I can't even talk about for fear of spoiling the plot) discloses a critical development that is not even hinted at until the last 200 pages -- and at a level of detail that allows one to guess precisely the central conclusion of the trilogy. I have rarely been as aggravated at a publishing company as I was upon seeing the final cover as I could guess what was coming even though not plainly revealed in the text itself. Darned spoilers....

Rob
T C
3071. Freelancer
AndrewB@3012

Ronde has two thoughts upon deciding to send her second message. The first:
In these hard times, a woman had to make out as best she could, and there could be no harm in it, not the sort of reports she made to Narenwin.

This indicates two things. First, that she is being paid for her duplicates. Sending two pigeons to make sure that the message arrives in Tar Valon might be a valid precaution at times, but it would gain her no extra money. It seems logical to assume that members of an Ajah's eyes and ears would receive a regular stipend of some sort, rather than just upon delivery of information. So the implication of this thought is definitely an additional recipient, from whom she expects monetary thanks. Second, she believes that her normal reports are of no substantial consequence, and is rationalizing her willingness to send her information to someone besides the White Tower as harmless.

Her second thought is this:
Wondering if she could ever get the taste of forkroot out of her mouth, she would not have minded if the report brought just a little harm to the one who called herself Nynaeve.
This doesn't strike me as something she would find herself thinking if the White Tower was the only destination for her message. No, whoever else she is informing is someone who may cause serious discomfort for a channeler, Nynaeve specifically.

Now, given the succeeding events, that Ronde is punished by Elaida's direction for her failure, and then goes to Tanchico to side with the Seanchan against Aes Sedai, it seems clear that they were her second addressee all along.


schrodinger@3019

I see Egwene's dream of being aided by a Seanchan woman with a sword on her back as a representation, not a specific person. Basically, without Seanchan assistance, she isn't going to get where she needs to be. Tough pill for a former damane to swallow.


subwoofer@3023

You left out Snow Dogs. Resurrecting Uhura and Our Man Flint for a lightweight doggie comedy? Can't get any better than that.

Without looking at the link I guessed Moonshadow. I guess you can't really belt out that one, but that it would be Cat Stevens was pretty obvious.


MasterAlThor@3029

Kowalski? Well, I have examined your analysis, and find it no better than 30% accurate. ::blink:: Hmm, very well, 45%.


chriscot@3035 & whoami@3037

In TSR Ch 26, The Dedicated, a single ripple occurs, as described by whoami. In KoD Ch 5, Something strange, three ripples occur, in increasing magnitudes, scaring the daylights out of everyone in Malden. The descriptions aren't detailed, and it is quite possible that the two events are related. I had always taken the occurence at the Collam Daan as something of a concussion wave caused by the creation of the Bore.


subwoofer@3045

There have been too many Cadsuane POVs where she is trying to get Rand prepared "correctly" to face the Dark One. Her entire concern that if he's too emotionless, too hard, he'll lose, makes it impossible for me to consider her a darkfriend. Also, if she were Black, she would have just let the other sisters continue to fail at questioning Semirhage, rather than discovering how to break her down. That said, we have no idea to whom she entrusted the other male a'dam and Callandor.

Dune, yes, but only the SciFi channel version. The one with Sting was a sad imitation, and took many more liberties with the story.

thewindrose@3046

I would agree that if any forsaken taught Taim, it had to be Ishamael. Once the initial Taimandred business was debunked, I never have believed that Demandred is even indirectly connected with Taim. That he is acting on Moridin's behalf is more believable. Either Murandy or Shara would make sense as Demandred's point of power.

It seems logical that the Amayar are a branch of the Aiel descendancy. There were several branching off points. The group that leaves to find the song becomes the Tinkers, it might be that an additional breaking happened among those, with some going to sea, and becoming the Amayar. The Water Way is far too close to the Way of the Leaf for there to be no connection.


subwoofer@3053

Melindhra was a darkfriend, but was not a channeler, so she couldn't have been turned via 13x13. There are weak hearts anywhere and everywhere. Besides, she was Shaido.


M-o-M@3055

I don't think the Isle of Madmen is, as you said, "where the Sea Folk exile their male channelers". They are given a choice, be sunk at sea tied to a rock, or put ashore on a deserted island. It was clear in the text that they aren't all sent to the same place, ala some leper colony type of deal.


BenM

Interesting movie choices. For me, the best of all of those is actually Frequency. Yes, it was a joke about The Matrix not having sequels, but II and III are such horrible story sequences that it's as well to say that there were no sequels.


Bouke@3067

You can't actually assume that there are no loose threads. BWS has said that there are subplots which were never meant to be completed. Just because a place, or a culture, or whatever has been referred to, does not mean that it will be brought into the foreground, or any details added. RJ's purpose was building a world that seemed as real as possible. To know all there is to know about a smaller "world", actually makes it less believable.


blocksmith@2068

F-18s? Lawndarts. I was on the first deployment with Hornets, and they failed miserably. As forward positioned land-based craft for Marines, fine. But as carrier-borne fighters, horrible. To get on target any distance away from the BG required one of two choices. Two refuelings each on the outbound and inbound legs, or else three fuel pods, leaving much less ordnance payload. Tomcats can carry 20,000lbs of fuel and still pack 8 missiles, or 6 missiles and 12 bombs.
Rob Munnelly
3072. RobMRobM
Here's the other review. It was recommended by several (notably Freelancer) that I read R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf trilogy, giving the backstory on Drizzt Do'Urdan, the drow (dark elf) ranger who lives far in the north country in his Dungeons and Dragons land world. After reading that, I then read the earlier Icewind Dale trilogy in which Drizzt makes his first appearance.

I loved the first two books of the Dark Elf trilogy that laid out Drizzt's upbringing in the violent and violently competitive Dark Elf culture and his eventual decision to exile himself from it and live elsewhere underground. The first book in particular is very well done at explaining the culture and the unique circumstances that lead a "good guy" such as Drizzt to come out of it. I found the third book -when he made it to the surface - less compelling, largely because I had plausibility problems with his chief adversary (i.e., given Drizzt's extraordinary battle skills, I couldn't believe that an obnoxious human was worth worrying about and would deliberately seek him out) and some aspects of his training as a ranger.

I liked Icewind Dale but you have to have a tolerance for the heroic, D&D writing style followed by Salvatore where our heroes take insane risks and survive in the face of near-ridiculous odds. I did like each of the main characters (especially Drizzt, who is particularly compelling, but also Regis, Bruenor, Wolfgar and Cattie-brie), several of the minor characters, and several of the plotlines that challenged the characters during the three books. So I liked them and found them worth reading but didn't love them.

Rob
Rob Munnelly
3073. RobMRobM
Wow. Silence on the thread. Never thought I'd see that.

Yes, Blazing Saddles is already in the bunker (and Young Frankenstein as well) and yes, the Dune miniseries -- while having its own flaws towards the latter half - is much better than the David Lynch movie version.

I also agree with Free on the Macura pigeon problem, which is one of my favorite throw away puzzles in the WoT and was discussed at some length when we covered that chapter during the re-read.
Ron Garrison
3074. Man-0-Manetheran
Silence. Yeah, it takes quite a bit of time to catch up each day! Thanks to all who offer up the threads of information that make this board so addictive.

Just a quick note on PIGEONS: Homing or messenger pigeons only return to their home. To use them, they must be physically transported to a point and then released. A Tar Valon pigeon, for instance, would only go back to Tar Valon. An Ebou Dar pigeon would only go to it's home in Ebou Dar. When released, they fly up and circle a bit before heading off in the direction of their home. So two pigeons going to TV by different routes is just not possible.

Re. TBC4-6: I re-read Chapters 25-26 of TSR last night (Rand in Rhuidian). I don't think I really had paid much attention to the Aiel, Ogier, Nym singing in the fields before. Very interesting.
Kurt Lorey
3075. Shimrod
@3071 Freelancer.

IIRC, pretty sure Demandred actually told Taim to kill Rand once. I'll go back and try to find it.
Tricia Irish
3076. Tektonica
RobM@ 3069

So glad you enjoyed reading about The Fitz. He is one of my all time favorite characters. I might just have to drop in and visit him again to fill up the year of waiting on WOT. I thought Hobbs' world, and their magics, were beautifully realized and I enjoyed her focus on character as well as action.

The Favorite Character Thread on the B & N Scifi/Fantasy website picked Drizzt more than any other character, and on that basis I just started the series with Book 1. Not very far in but so far I find their world pretty frightening. Glad to hear you liked Drizzt. That might keep me going. Also happy to hear he makes it above ground. The darkness and constant violence is depressing me.

Hey, think Leigh will post today on the reread thread?? Whooppee. I think we've beaten this horse nearly to death.
Sam Mickel
3077. Samadai
Shimrod@3075,

It wasn't Taim that was ordered, it was Raefar Kisman, one of Taims underlings. It is in Winters Heart where he escapes Rand. He is thinking about How Taim ordered him to kill Rand. Then Later Demandred Orders him to kill Rand and tell no one, not even Taim. Then Moridin told him to kill Rand if he could but above all else bring him all of his posessions.
Sam Mickel
3078. Samadai
Interesting side note on that point of view. Kisman refers to Demandred and Moridin as Forsaken, not as the Chosen. I'm sure it means nothing, probably a continuity error.
Ron Garrison
3079. Man-0-Manetheran
Paper Question:

I've been going back and re-reading a lot since finishing TGS, and I noticed immediately that the paper used for the older volumes was a much smoother, much higher quality paper than used for TGS. Checking the verso, I noticed all my older volumes carried the info that "This book is printed on acid-free paper." TGS does not say this.

Question for all: What does your volume say?
Tina Murrah
3080. Tina.Murrah
3071. Freelancer & M o M

Doesn't the fact that they call it The Island of Madmen alone attest that this is where they dump thier male channelers?
Tina Murrah
3081. Tina.Murrah
::edit::
sorry for the double post, that was me being impatient with the load time.
Wilson Grooms
3082. KZK
Known / Suspected Errata:

Other posters have picked up some unusual Idiom that is very out of place in the WoT: "Do the Math", "Saidared", "politicking", "homicidal", "compulsed", "Bloody Ashes", "bust", Etc.

Chapter 1: The Idiom 'Pawn' is used by Rand. Randland doesn't seem to have chess or chess idioms, Pawn is not used in any other WoT book except once to sell something (as in Pawn shop). See http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=pawn


Chapter 2 Egwene thinks all the SAS spies were gray. It's clear in that scene that Egwene thinks all of the spies are Grey. Elaida knows who all of the spies are, and they are not all Grey. Beonin warned all the spies, who again, are not all Grey.


Chapter 5 It's cute how Cads doesn't remove the air weave from Semi's ears to let Merise think she is still questioning her, but wouldn't Merise notice the weave of air hadn't been dissipated?

Chapter 6 Turan says "save face". What he probably should have said was that she would break him to prevent having her eyes lowed for a period of time.

Chapter 6 Leane says "Palace Guards", which it seems to me should actually be "Tower Guards", as I don't think of the WT as a palace nor reason for Elaida's "palace" to have guards visiting Leane.

Chapter 8 Siuan says "one of the two others" which should be "three" The next phrase "The other" should also be changed to "Another".

Chapter 8+ Starting in chapter 8 "Great Captain" is replaced by "general" in most cases where it should not have been. Jordan only used general in a few particular instances: "Captain General" of Queens guards, "Banner General" of Seanchan forces, Etc. See http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=general

Chapter 12: Missing word: Had. "It was the first time Egwene [had] been ordered to attend one of them."

Chapter 12: Shienar Sword. "Shienarian" would be more correct.

Chapter 13: Gawyn refers to Egwene as a "Pawn".

Chapter 19: Tuon thinks about Suroth: "The deathwatch guard saw to her, at least until her hair grew out." Which is written in the past tense like this had already happened, yet a few paragraphs earlier, we learn that this is the day after Tuon has returned / Made Suroth Da'Covale.

Chapter 19: Galgan claims the WT are Rand's "Pawns".

Chapter 20: Typo page 314: "Cairhien in fashion" should be Cairhienin unless it was meant as the "in fashion" in Cairhien, which is very awkward.

Chapter 20: Joline's Math is off per Warders calculation. Others have written of this.

Chapter 21: "stands of long, thin grasses". Seems like this should be "strands".

Chapter 24: Gawyn Refers to Egwene as a "Pawn", Again.

Chapter 25: Missing word: She. "But [she] would lose a great deal of credibility."

Chapter 27: Typo: "If course I need you, Thom!", should be "Of".

Chapter 27-8: Missing 3 Redarms, however, Sanderson says RAFO.

Chapter 28: "The town unravels at night, and then the world tries to reset it each morning to make things right again." Shouldn't it be the "wheel" that is doing the resetting? The world is afterall an artifact of the wheel and the pattern.

---
I've only gotten through chapter 30, and post 2400 in my slow re-read. So my observations re:errata will end here, but I'm sure I and others will notice some more.
---

Chapter 37: Sulin. Not an errata, according to Sanderson. So the Questions are: 1. Which one is the real Sulin, and which one the Masquerade? 2. Who is pretending to be Sulin, and for what purpose? 3. How long has this deception been going on? Seems most likely to be CynFear or Moggy, but I present the theory that the Fake Sulin is Greandal, and that the BF trick failed because of this (she removed the compulsion on the spot before Nyn checks him).

---
Chapter 41: Possible error with how rings and angreal work in tower battle. Others have written of this.

---
Chapter 50: Rand holds his head in his Hands (plural).

-------
-------

Randalator@2340 Your theory about balefire and buildings is completely wrong. 1. Balefire exists outside of the pattern and is permanent, (i.e. it can't be undone by other balefire). This means their is no temporal paradoxes with balefire. Buildings and other Matter are burnt backward in time. See the Nynaeve / Moggy balefire scene on the boat, for an example of how matter is indeed burned backwards in time. 2. It's not perfectly clear from the existing writing, but matter/everything does have some sort of threads that the Great Lord is affecting as he attempts to touch the world, per Rand's thoughts on the shifting room phenomenon as a loosening of the threads in the pattern. So again, balefire only works on threads. Peoples (Humans, Ogier, *finn, possibly some shadowspawn, etc) threads are somehow different from matter threads (probably because they have souls attached to them). In either event Souls are unaffected by Balefire, and will always be reborn (write this every time Balefire is discussed, because the misbelief that Balefire destroys Souls is widespread).



----

With a large bar of Balefire and a large number of strategically placed gateways, you could do some really weird stuff.


Since it was pretty clear in KoD that Semirhage brought many copies of the Domination Bands with her when she attacked rand, what happened to all of the other ones?


Some people are suggesting that the Seanchan are a force for peace and stability in their conquered lands, but this is really just the peace of the sword. The near constant rebellions, assasinations, and attempts to overthrow and usurp the throne, show just how truly peaceful the rule of Seanchan really is, which is not very.


Souls are distinct from the pattern, and only loosely bound to the wheel. What would happen to all the souls if the Great Lord succeeded in destroying the wheel? Seems like he would be able to then take all of the souls, like Rand suggests in TGS Chapter 22.
Ron Garrison
3083. Man-0-Manetheran
One of Samadi's questions of BWS (thanks man!) was: "Will we hear anything more about Shara or the Land of Madmen? That was our first RAFO."

Since both Shara and the Land of Madmen were mentioned in the same question, the answer can be interpreted the following ways:

Yes, you will hear more about Shara.
Yes, you will hear more about Land of Madmen.
Yes, you will hear more about both.
No, you won't hear more about Shara.
No, you won't hear more about Land of Madmen.
No, you won't hear more about either.
RAFO
An answer worthy of an Aes Sadai.
Tina Murrah
3084. Tina.Murrah
RobM & Tektonica
I read and liked the Hobb trilogy Assassin Apprentice & Co... but didn't you find them .. anti-climatic?

You spend the whole first two books and most of the third on an amazing storyline, a great adventure, and then the end is wrapped up summary style, without the main character ever even seeing any of it. And then he lives as a hermit!! I was deeply disappointed with how this trilogy turned out.

Should I read one of the other trilogies? Will they fix my overall sense of let-down at the end of Fitz’s journey?
Wilson Grooms
3085. Tinaa
Loony theory / Big Clue time again, I’m pretty sure this one has already come to light in the thread or the re-read, but every time I try to search my laptop spectacularly crashes and lies whimpering in a heap, so I’m going to throw it out here and see what happens.

In FoH, ch 26: As Min, Siuan and Leanne arrive in Salidar with Logain, Min views a White AS - Carlinya. She sees a raven that she thinks is a tattoo.

In the following chapters, Carlinya seems very upset that Siuan “knew of Rand al Thor and conspired to hide him from the Tower”. Siuan recalls Carlinya as a novice and Accepted; she broke a rule once a month to be seen to fit in, yet never understood why the other girls saw her as an AS pet.

Gareth Bryne is wary of Carlinya, she “reeks of ambition”, and Carlinya says to Bryne “you will be serving the Light and justice in serving us”. Carlinya spends a lot of time in these chapters looking like she disagrees with the other AS.

All this is leading to my loony theory…

Do the Seanchan already have a foothold in the White Tower? And have they had one there for years?

And. Discuss.
Rob Munnelly
3086. RobMRobM
Tina - I liked the ending to the first book, which is apparent from early in the series via chapter intros. The tension comes from why things ended the way they did. I do recommend that you read Tawny Man. Rest assured that where Fitz ends the first series is not where/how he ends ultimately. No guarantees you'll be happy with how things end in that series either, of course....

Although, without spoiling much, I don't have a problem with ambiguous or non-heroic endings. Part of what makes Fitz great is he does all of these heroic things and isn't able to take public credit for them for various reasons, a theme even more pronounced in Tawny Man. I found that to be a compelling dynamic that affects his interactions with the Farseer leadership who know precisely how important he is to them and struggle to figure out how to reward him. (It also makes for a great scene towards the end of Tawny Man where all sorts of his chickens start coming home to roost.)

Rob
Tina A
3087. Tinaa
RobM @3086
*Heh* Two Tina's in a row. Have to admit I was a tad confused by your post until I read the one above mine...
Cheryl
3088. First Selector
Samadai @ 3078:
In an earlier book (TFOH maybe) Liandrin thinks about how she still thinks of them as the Forsaken in her head even though she's supposed to refer to them as the Chosen.
Roger Powell
3089. forkroot
Hmmph! All this talk of movies to stock the bunker and nobody mentioned:

Dark Star

For shame!

You are all false data
Tricia Irish
3090. Tektonica
Tina.Murrah@3084

I didn't read the Live Ship Trilogy. It's set in a different milieu and only tangentially related, but the The Tawny Man trilogy takes up 15 years later with Fitz and the Fool and a different adventure. I liked it alot and really liked that ending. It's really a 6 book story line.

Did I find them anti-climactic? No. Fitz seemed very very real to me and, oh, I think RobM put it very well above in 3086. Well said Rob!

Go for it!
Rob Munnelly
3091. RobMRobM
3089. I didn't know that Star Jones made a movie. Or was it Mazzie Star? :-)
Tina Murrah
3092. Tina.Murrah
@ Tektonica & RobM
Well thanks, I will give the second set of 3 a try then (as soon as I finish First Lords Fury, by Jim Butcher.)
Barry T
3093. blindillusion
I have a question regarding Ms Hobb's books. Is the Farseer/Tawny Man series better than the Soldier Son trilogy?

I found the first book of the Solider Son to be readable at best, but couldn't even get through the first 100 pages of the second. ...and, well, that's only about the 3rd time I've never finished a book I'd started.

And I'm actively looking for more books to read, like some of the above.
Wilson Grooms
3094. alreadymadwithsinging
the windrose @ 2948 / bobbins @ 3025
From Min's very first viewing in tEotW Ch 15, about Perrin:
"...trees flowering all around him."

Sounds like Perrin may have something to do with the Song.
T C
3095. Freelancer
KZK@3082

I'll be gentle this time, and simply say that many of the items in your comment have been laid to rest, either as resolved in a knowable way (and in several cases differently than your perception), or understood to be open. However, very few of them are actually errata as you suggest. Now, to be thorough and answer a few that I can speak to without references handy...

Pawn - Isn't originated with the game of Chess. The term, derived out of peon, refers to a person or thing which is at one's disposal, to be used as a tool for leverage or trade. It is older than its use to name a Chess piece by more than two centuries.

Egwene, Beonin, spies, and the Gray Ajah - First Selector answered this one (you misread the passage, or misremembered it) @1809

I find no problem with "Sheinar sword", as it is described in a sister's room. However, even if I thought it needed to be corrected, "Sheinarian" would be wrong, it would be "Sheinaran".

This one I'll quote you first:
Chapter 19: Tuon thinks about Suroth: "The deathwatch guard saw to her, at least until her hair grew out." Which is written in the past tense like this had already happened, yet a few paragraphs earlier, we learn that this is the day after Tuon has returned / Made Suroth Da'Covale.

The phrasing of this internal POV is not past tense, and is appropriate speech, given that it immediately follows the phrase "saw to her", which employs the exact same reflective tense.

"Stands of long, thin grasses" is correct, as it would be for trees or other verticaly significant flora.


RE: Sulin, you make an assumption that there is a fake Sulin, when there is at least one other, far more likely possibility. One of the female channelers in Perin's camp can Travel, and has sent Sulin as a messenger. It may be that this has been going on for some time. Also, Sulin, whether real or fake, was not with Rand, Nynaeve and Ramshalan, so even were it Graendal in disguise, would not have been handy to remove the Compulsion. Also, Graendal would have had to work out Rand's exact intentions vis-a-vis the visit by Ramshalan in order to counter it so precisely, and this strains credulity.


Semirhage had five copies of the Domination Band made, because Rand was brining five other male channelers with him to the meeting with "Tuon". Cadsuane gave them into the secret possession of unnamed Aes Sedai, for study.
Maiane Bakroeva
3096. Isilel
It is no longer true that details about Shara were only in the World Book. They have since made their way into the series itself. They are even in the glossary of TGS that contains very little (no?) fluff.
This seems a little excessive for a detail that is destined to be just color, no?

As to the numbers of Ayyad males - it is a good point, sure, but they have to have certain minimal number at all times to keep their procreation program going without too much inbreeding.
And Shara is quite big, IIRC. So, a couple of hundreds of recruits if the same standards as at the BT are applied would be quite probable, IMHO.

Also, if Ishy had enough foresight, then the Ayyad system of taking a male out and secretly killing him is ideally suited to spiriting one away.
Ron Garrison
3097. Man-0-Manetheran
Isilel @ 3096
When I saw that rather large entry for Shara in the Glossary, I had pretty much had the same thought as you. Why? Why now? I'm beginning to lean toward the Shara theory more and more. Good point about taking the males off to "kill" and encamping them somewhere. Tho' I think you meant Demandred, not Ishy(?)
David
3098. whoami
Freelancer @3071

Actually, three separate ripples, each stronger than the last, may work with the seals breaking theory.

Each seal breaking would release a ripple of 'change' in the pattern, and each ripple would be stronger than the last as the Dark One's touch on the pattern grows.

In the Age of Legends, the ripple would have happened at the instant the Bore was complete, creating only one ripple, but you'd think it would have been a strong one.

The appearance of the storm in TGS may also be an indicator that the seals are broken (or is one left?) and the Dark One is ready for Tarmon Gaidon.

Finally, on a related note, Brandon's Q&A, posted on DragonMount, has these facts that are pertinient to the DO and the seals:

1) The True Power is corrosive, and even destructive to the pattern. TP channeling harms the pattern. This would tend to suggest that opening the Dark One's prison and letting the True Power touch the pattern would have a destructive effect. It's possible that sudden exposure to the True Power would cause ripples, but that's just speculation.

2) Cuendillar, which the seals are made of, can be destroyed only by the True Power, due presumably to it's destructive effect on the pattern, and one other unspecified method. I would assume that the Dark One has been putting some effort into destroying the seals and they may have broken unnoticed by the cast and crew of the Wheel.
T C
3099. Freelancer
Ok, taking the night off. 30 years ago today was the first date for my wife and me, and she's getting my undivided attention. I had just finished rebuilding the engine in my '71 Olds, and she still remembers the sound of the unmufflered exhaust from the next block. I remember the look on her Dad's face. By some miracle, she wasn't hidden from me.

Now, you kids don't make a mess while we're out, or you'll know why. And no staying up late watching old movies, you be in bed on time, it's a school night.

No.

I said no.

One scoop of ice cream, or four cookies, not both. And thinking I won't know would be a mistake. Now kiss Mom good night.
Tricia Irish
3100. Tektonica
Blindillusion@ 3093

I was really looking forward to the Soldier Son Trilogy and totally agree with you. I did manage the first 2 books, but couldn't finish the third. Gave up.

So yes, the Farseer and Tawny Man are MUCH better!!

Freelancer@3099

Congratulations and happy date anniversary. Glad to see you have your priorities straight!
Julian Augustus
3102. Alisonwonderland
RobM and Blindillusion:
I cannot recommend highly enough The Black Company series by Glen Cook and the Vlad Taltos series by Steven Brust. Talking about Brust, one of the Tor commenters, Jo Walton, has been giving her impressions of the various books in the Brust universe, right here on Tor. You can find the links on the Tor home page.
Barry T
3103. blindillusion
I promise, I'm working on something to write that's WoT in nature...

But that will have to wait until the Saint's game is over. GO SAINTS!!!

Anyway, I've been reading up on the Vlad Taltos books. Can anyone recommend a reading order? I'm thinking of getting the compilation books: The Book of Jhereg, the Book of Taltos, the Book of Athyra and going on from there.

Oh, some more movies for the bunker.

American Psycho
Catch Me If You Can
Dazed and Confused
Hearts in Atlantis
Heathers
Lucky Number Slevin
Meet Joe Black (original and re-make)
Mirror Mask
Pan's Labyrinth
Requiem for a Dream
Seven
Stir of Echoes
The Usual Suspects

(Elaida is going to need to get busy. We need more shelves built stat. Especially since if this thread goes much longer, we're going to start bringing in our libraries.
Rob Munnelly
3104. RobMRobM
3103. No Saints talk, please. Too painful. Also, based on your movie list, you are a very disturbed person - not that there's anything wrong with that (and you have Dazed and Confused there so you can't be all bad).

3102. A few have recommended Brust. I'll consider him. If you can give me your recommended starting point, I'd appreciate that.

3100. I haven't read Soldier's Son, so thanks for responding.

R
Alice A
3105. Wetlandernw
Good grief, people! I go away for a few days and come back to find you've broken 3100!!! Now I have to go figure out where I left off and get caught up again... Then again, I see we've stooped to discussing movie recommendations. Maybe I didn't miss much, eh?
Barry T
3106. blindillusion
RobM@3104

Disturbed? Neh, not really. Just eclectic. Some movies should be watched at least once.... Take RfaD. Only seen it once. Will never watch it again, but among other things it's one of the reasons I never went down some of the paths I had the option to go down at one point or another.

RE: That team not to be mentioned...I've been waiting years for this.

RE: Brust ~ Vlad sounds like an interesting character. I'm thinking I'll go in publication order...unless there is another suggestion out there....

Oh, and Stir of Echoes. It's horrible that this was the Movie Twin of the Sixth Sense. SoE was a much better movie.

Wetlandernw@3105

We've also moved on to talking about books. There's that....
Roger Powell
3107. forkroot
Hmmmm... I'm ready to get going on talking about A Crown of Swords. Shout out to Leigh: "You 'bout ready to get on the horse again?"

This will be the first time that we'll be back in the earlier books but with all of the revelations from TGS available. Among other things, Verin's reveal puts a whole new light on her momentary flip out when she learns of Katerine's escape.

Presumably Verin knew that Katerine (like Elza) was Black Ajah and she was probably planning to cook up a protective compulsion on her as well.

Yes indeed, there will be plenty to comment on.

*twitch* *twitch*
Wilson Grooms
3108. Planeswalker
It's clear that we'll still have previews of "dead" personas in ToM. We have Verin and Graendal, for sure. Anyone else you might think? Coz I'm sure there's no more seeing to Semiraghe for that matter.

By the way, I'd like to add "Braveheart" to the bunker if that's alright. Can't miss the this one - "Every man dies, not every man really lives."
craig thrift
3109. gagecreedlives
Well if we are going to stack the bunker with DVDs may I suggest Mad Monster Party. My personal favourite childhood movie. Any movie that features a tap dancing Dracula, an all in brawl with all the classic monsters and a Beatles tribute band made out of skeletons, well you know your in for something special.

Its the Mummy

Now that we know Verin was black it makes me wonder what her and Alanna were really up to down in the Two Rivers. I understand that Verin was a mole for the light but if she was going to survive as part of the black for 70 years(?) she must have had to do some dastardly deeds. And what was Alanna up to down there when she kept mysteriously disappearing?

Also when Siuan visited Fal Dara way back in tGH she had 3 confirmed black ajah members as part of her entourage (Verin, Alviarin and Liandrin) wonder if there were anymore.
Rob Munnelly
3110. RobMRobM
Braveheart's there already.

I do understand the eclectic nature of your movie recommendations and your feelings about the football team that is not to be mentioned - my above post was (mostly) LOL.

Fork - note that my book reads and reviews have been a consistent feature of the re-read since late summer. I've done Feist, Donaldson, Bujold, Willis and now Salvatore and Hobb. All I have left is Weis/Hickman's Dragonlance and I'm done. I was hoping to save the last two reviews for the first CoS re-read but couldn't wait anymore. Rob
Maiane Bakroeva
3111. Isilel
Re: Hobb, I am a fan, but I just couldn't summon any enthusiasm to proceed with the "Soldier Son" trilogy after the 1st volume either.

But "Liveship Traders" trilogy is another beast entirely - I love it, apart from the ending. But then, I hated the ending of the "Tawny Man" trilogy too. It has a multi-POV structure, that might alienate those who prefer to concentrate on one character exclusively, but surely not the WOT aficionados!

And there is a sequel Rain Wilds duology to it (that is really a very big book split in 2), of which the first part is out in hb ("Dragon Keeper") and the second part is coming out in spring.

I also love Brust, though I prefer the Paarfi Chronicles (same world, a thousand or so years prior and a Dumas-like narrator) to Vlad and can't recommend his standalone "Agyar" (non-Draghaera) enough. But Vlad is excellent too.

You can read it in publication order.

Internally chronological order would be something along these lines:

Taltos, Dragon, Yendi, Jhereg, Teckla, Phoenix, Athyra, Orca, Issola, Dzur.

I didn't yet read Jhegaala, so I don't know where it will fit.

BTW, it looks like a lot, but they are thin, quick-moving books.

Re: WoT. Dead people's POVs in ToM - I really hope that we get at least one more of Verin. Personally, I strongly suspect her of setting up the burning out incident of Martine Janata/Setalle Anan and then compelling her to forget what happened. It would be interesting to see them meet.

Also, I am kind of disappointed that Verin didn't visit Siuan or leave her a letter before her demise. It looked to me that Moiraine and Siuan were almost her protegees in the past and that she somehow protected them from the BA a bit, maybe even prevented Tamra from revealing their names back then. Maybe a letter will still arrive, though.
I also expect that Verin would have left something to Elayne, what with a DF stronghold barely 10 miles from her capital.

As to Katerine, I had a distinct feeling that Verin didn't _know_ that she was a BA until she escaped. She thought to herself the "circumstances (of her escape) made everything plain", etc.

Speaking of which - how come that Galina wasn't showing DF signs for all she was worth when she was captured by the Shaido? Surely there were some DF among them who could have helped her to escape also.
Matthew Smith
3112. blocksmith
Blindillusion@3103 and RobmRobm@3104

Cannot agree more with Isilel@3111 regarding Brust.

I recommend the Vlad Taltos sereins in publication order...there is background provided in Jhereg (the first) that is not in other books. Following books give you excellent character development. Yendi is a chronologically before Jhereg, but second in publication. The have very good flow and read quickly.

The Paarfi romances are also very good...written in entirely different perspective and voice...and take place before the Vlad series, but involve some of the same primary (other than Vlad) characters.
john massey
3113. subwoofer
Sorry folks, been busy! New dog + fresh snow + renos= no time for Subwoofer to post.

@Free- you always pick these wonky songs... I dunno if you have a cracked sense of humor or if you are just really old and the memory is slipping;) Don't worry in your twilight years you have probably forgotten more than I know so I will pad respectfully around the aged guru.

Not much to say beyond this Shara thingy is starting to bug me. Now of all times towards the end of the series we are bringing in a new land, probably with a new prophecy and all this gobbly gook.

Grrrrrrrrr.

Woof™.
Tess Laird
3114. thewindrose
Isilel - The Shaido are such a divergent culture of the Aiel, they probably have their own 'DO' that they believe in.
It just seems so strange that from Wise One down to regular Aiel they are so different. Especially the Wise Ones, they have to see what happens when they go through the Anscestron? They let Sevanna be a Wise One? Something is just not right about them.

Hey, maybe this is what hasn't been discussed much that BWS was referring to.

How about Therava - she is crazy mean, seems quite selfish - perfect makings for a darkfriend. And I don't know if Galina is just having nightmares about Therava, or Therava is an unknown(to our other Aiel dream walkers) dream walker. There are just so many puzzles with the Shaido.

Oh, and before everyone brings up the normal seeming Clan Leader Maeric - I know there are some more normal Shaido - but why don't they do something about how mangled Ji'e'toh gets?
Matthew Smith
3115. blocksmith
Subwoofer@3113

I agree...

Introducing a Sharan story line at this point in the series would be...frustrating. It's time to wrap up storylines, not introduce new ones.

That said I could see a scenario, similar to the LOTR Wildmen or Easterlings, where Sharans arrive in the middle of a battle to help Team Rand or show up as an ally of the DO under a Forsaken. The similarity to LOTR is that neither force got much screen time but both were important relative to the battles themselves.

This would provide, potentially, a brief Sharan POV (say prologue to AMOL...Sharan general surveys the landscape before him observing two opposing armies locked in combat and thinking about their miniscule odds of survival) and some actual interaction with Sharan forces/culture.
Roger Powell
3116. forkroot
RobM^2
Hope you weren't thinking that I was disrespecting your book reviews! I've followed them all because I want recommendations for my own future reading.

My itchiness for resuming the reread is based on the unwieldiness of this thread and a desire for some fresh perspectives on the series.

thewindrose
Therava's pretty nasty, true. Given the number of threads that still need wrapping up, I would hope that the remains of the Shaido are off-screen for good, and that Galina will be tormented for years. So we'll hopefully never know if Therava is a darkfriend.

Isilel
Also, I am kind of disappointed that Verin didn't visit Siuan or leave her a letter before her demise.
Maybe she just didn't have time? I'm becoming more and more convinced that something forced Verin's hand. That's one way to explain why she revealed what she did to Egwene while Eg's future was still in doubt.

We haven't learned everything about the BA oaths. Presumably Verin had dodged around doing too many evil deeds during her years as a mole, although I'm sure she had to do some stuff, just to keep the dark side thinking she was on board.

Maybe a new order had come to her that was so heinous (like kill Eg?) that she felt it forced her to implement her exit strategy? I wonder if we'll get any more clarification on that in ToM if indeed we go back in time and get more Verin POVs.

blocksmith
Introducing a Sharan story line at this point in the series would be...frustrating. It's time to wrap up storylines, not introduce new ones.
Agreed. Furthermore I would posit that any appearance by Sharan forces that would affect battles (either way) would smell of deus ex machina. RJ/BWS are better than that.

Having said that, and further admitting that the resolution of TG is likely more about what happens at Mt Doom instead of Dagorlad plains, one must wonder: Where is the scary force for the dark?

Team Light may be fractured and contentious, but after what happened outside Algarin's manor, I don't see how a million Trollocs is all that scary.

If (big if) the Black Tower situation can be resolved and the BT, WT, Seanchan, great captains and their armies, Whitecloaks under Galad, etc. are all playing for Team Light, then it's hard to imagine anything for Team Black that could contend with them unless there were hundreds of dreadlords to back the black armies.

So if Shara is to play any role in the final books, I would imagine it would have to be to help make Team Black a little scarier.
T C
3117. Freelancer
Back to KZK for a few more items...

The entry from chapter 20 is indeed a typo. Where Talmanes' head is "powdered after Cairhien in fashion", it is the space which is unnecessary, and should read "after Cairhienin fashion". Possibly the word had been broken across a line at some point in editing, I've seen the same elsewhere in the book, in the first couple of chapters.

Where Egwene, in chapter 25, says "But would lose a great deal of credibility", is perfectly acceptable as an internal thought. Elaida had been identified as the object of the thought, and the requisite "she" had been employed by Seaine in the previous spoken sentence, "She would retain the shawl". You would be more correct to question the word shawl, which probably should have been stole, since it was Elaida's title in question, not her sisterhood.
Matthew Smith
3118. blocksmith
Forkroot@3116

I think the million trollocs will be augmented with beaucoup dreadlords and Fades, and possibly even other blight-living shadowspawn forced out by the Forsaken/Dreads...this would make them more formidable than the large attack on the manor house.

I think the Sharans, if they show, are a 50/50 split on their allegiance. Meaning heads they fight for black, tails they fight for light...or vice versa. This is based solely on the lack of information we have. Conjecture on a closed society of which we have almost no information is...well...conjecture.
Maiane Bakroeva
3119. Isilel
Subwoofer et al.:

I don't envision Sharan culture being depicted in detail. We already know what we need to know about them, which means, BTW, that their appearance won't be Deus ex Machina. Nor do I think that they have any Prophecies of the Dragon.

I strongly suspect that Shara, like Seanchan, was under power of the Shadow when the Breaking made such concerns irrelevant and that, along with Ishy's interference during the 3rd Age, affected their culture.
Seanchan didn't have any Prophecies of the Dragon until Luthair and Co. came. Essanik cycle came into existence after the conquest as it's prophecies were given by damane according to BWS. If Sharans have any prophecies, they are more likely to be Dark prophecies of some stripe.

Anyway, the role of Sharans will be to bolster the Shadow IMHO, to provide it with an army that can Travel and sufficient channeler support. As things currently stand, even if all BT went Dark, the forces of Light would still be at a big advantage.

Now, while it may be true that ultimate victory and defeat won't depend on armies (though we don't know this, it may be more like LOTR where both prongs of action were crucial), the DO _will_ settle for trashing the world as much as he can if outright desctruction is out of his reach. So, military aspect _is_ important too.

I mean, given how many characters and how much buildup went into it, it really couldn't be otherwise.
Jay Dauro
3120. J.Dauro
Last night, lying in bed, channeling (lowercase) my inner Mesaana.

I am one of the Chosen, hiding among these so called Aes Sedai, and using an inverted disguise to appear as one of them. But sooner or later one of them may get the idea of using that blasted Binder to have me foreswear all of the Great Lord's Oaths, and then swear their silly 3 oaths. They can then ask me to state that I am not a Darkfriend. Well I can get around that, I am not a Darkfriend, I am one of the Chosen. But what if they ask me to state that I do not serve the Great Lord?

I may not be able to equivocate my way through their questions. And even if I can, I would still be stuck walking out with my Oaths to the Great Lord gone (which could be dangerous, the Great Lord might decide I should be gotten rid of just in case.) Besides, then I have to get rid of their cursed 3 Oaths by getting access to a Binder.  

Of couse I could find another Binder and keep it in my room. Maybe I can come up with an oath on it that would allow me to say the words on their Binder without having to mean them. But can one Binder remove the effects of another?  And I would have to find another Binder.

That may be dangerous. Better to never touch the blasted thing. Maybe that is the answer.

I am already using an inverted disguise. I will get a pair of algoda gloves. I can alter my disguise weave so that everyone sees hands instead of gloves. Then I don't have to touch their blasted rod, I will have to remember to hiss a bit as I "foreswear my oaths", but I can do that. 

Or maybe I can weave a set of gloves from Air? If my "gloves" were inverted they would never see them. Much better. 

But wait, who is that young Yellow with all of the jewelry? Could those be ter'angreal? What is happening to my disguise? 


At 3:00 AM, who knows what nightmares you may have?

Jay
Rob Munnelly
3121. RobMRobM
Fork - understood re the books. All I can say to that is...."Break it, break it...."
john massey
3122. subwoofer
I didn't know Fifester wore jewelry;)

Woof™.
Sam Mickel
3124. Samadai
Don't tell the Fifester, but I saw him ducking into his new bunker With Galina and Elaida earlier.
::shudder::

What do you guys think of my new avatar?
Sam Mickel
3125. Samadai
I was just kidding, it was actually 13 Black Ajah sisters and 13 Myrdraal.
john massey
3126. subwoofer
Tam finding Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount- Nice!

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
3127. Grijze Vos
Almdoipad @2986
I had the same idea for a long time, but lately I discovered that Asmodean was killed in T'A'R. You can easely find that out in tFoH. You have to read the conversation Rand had with Nynaeve, then you will find out that the damage that Rand caused by killing Rahvin is only in T'A'R. Now reread the death of Asmodean.
Richard Fife
3128. R.Fife
@3127 No, they had a pretty protracted balefire fight in the real world before the swap to TAR. Just before Rand enters TAR, he has to dodge a mega-blast from Rahvin that cuts through the hallway.

@3122 & 3124 I have my saa filled eyes on you.
Sam Mickel
3129. Samadai
@3128,

You just have to want to come back to the light.
Ron Garrison
3130. Man-0-Manetheran
A cool tidbit I found yesterday while reading about Verin and Egwene in TDR. This is where Verin gives her the ter'angreal ring for dreaming. After Egwene leaves the room, Verin looks at some papers that were in the same box. They were notes from Corianin Nedeal, the last Dreamer of note:

"Page upon page, covered with a precise hand, the black ink barely faded after nearly five hundred years. Corianin Nedeal's notes, everything she had learned in fifty years of studying that peculiar ter'angreal. A secretive woman, Corianin. She had kept by far the greater part of her knowledge from everyone, trusting it only to these pages. Only chance and a habit of rummaging through old papers in the library had led Verin to them. As far as she could discover, no Aes Sedai besides herself knew of the ter'angreal; Corianin had managed to erase its existence from the records."

A couple chapters later: "Item. A rod of clear crystal, smooth and perfectly clear, one foot long and one inch in diameter. Use unknown. Last study made by Corianin Nedeal. Item. A figurine of an unclothed woman in alabaster, one hand tall. Use unknown. Last study made by Corianin Nedeal. Item. A disc, apparently of simple iron yet untouched by rust, three inches in diameter, finely engraved on both sides with a tight spiral. Use unknown. Last study made by Corianin Nedeal. Item. Too many items, and more than half the "use unknowns" last studied by Corianin Nedeal. Thirteen of them, to be exact."

Then in The Shadow Rising (((BOOK 4! - BOOK 4! - BOOK 4!))) we get this little passage: "A list lay in Egwene's pouch of the ter'angreal, most small enough to slip into a pocket, that had been stolen by the Black Ajah when they fled the Tower. They all three had a copy. Thirteen of those stolen ter'angreal had "no known use" written alongside, and "last studied by Corianin Nedeal." But if Corianin Sedai had truly not discovered their uses, Egwene was sure of one of them. They gave entrance to Tel'aran'rhiod; not as easily as the stone ring, perhaps, and perhaps not without channeling, but they did it."

Corianin's notes coupled with Egwene's (and Elayne's and Avienda's) power and talents could be a huge help to the Light!
Ron Garrison
3131. Man-0-Manetheran
Post 3131. Hold it up to a mirror and it becomes the dreaded 13 13.
Leslie Annis
3132. Lannis
Free @ 3099: She's a lucky lady! Happy first date anniversary! :)

Re: Shara... I'm quite back and forth on whether Shara will play a part in TG... it's slowly being introduced more and more, and yet it still feels like it'd be out of left field... yeah... I dunno... RAFO I guess...


I'm thinking our newest post from Leigh will be tomorrow... being a Wednesday and now into December... crossing my fingers...

*twitch*
Tess Laird
3133. thewindrose
I think R.Fife has his saa eyes on Nyn. He really wants all the 'special' jewerly she wears. And to trick her, he will wear his yellow shawl and lead her into to his new bunker made from the true power.
All though, come to think of it, he won't be able to use those trinkets since he can't channel saidar. He must have the 13/13 trick waiting for her in the bunker.
*Stay away from that bunker* I think I can hear strands of R.A. coming out through the door ~~run! It's like the ripple from when the bore was made....
Rob Munnelly
3134. RobMRobM
Re Shara - I'm reminded of the same pattern with Fists of Heaven in the glossary that convinced me that they were going to be used to attack the WT even though barely mentioned in text. If Shara is beefed up in this glossary compared to earlier books, watch out - bet it will play some role. R
Wilson Grooms
3135. alreadymadwithmirrors
Man-o-Manetheran @ 3131

Actually it becomes the strange 1E1E.

Jay @ 3120

Brandon has pretty much stated that Mesaana has gotten around the Oath Rod via Compulsion.
Wilson Grooms
3136. thepupxpert
Did anyone pick up on the Mesaana/Theodrin link - they both put a finger to their lips when in thought? So Theodrin would be my pick for Mesaana in the White Tower although at this point she's sworn fealty to Egwene!
Leigh Butler
3137. leighdb
Hi all,

New Re-read post going up Monday, December 7th.

Thanks to everyone for being so patient, you're like butter.
Tricia Irish
3138. Tektonica
windrose@3114, et al,

There sure are alot of suspect Shaido. Their behavior is nothing like Rand's Aiel and they seem to be disliked and held apart from all the other clans. So, there could be a DF connection, but personally, I hope we never see them again! They had enough screen time with Perrin and Faile. And I too hope Galina suffers forever with Therava. They deserve each other.

forkroot@3116, et al,

I think we'll get a lot more Verin in the last two books, as her letters to all the other important players become revealed. She was a great plant in the story from Book 1, to aid Team Light at the end! She knew tons o' stuff and I'm sure passed it on in those letters. Verin was a good mole! Hopefully she'll shed some light on all the "last studied by Corrianin Nedeal" ter'angreal, as per M O M @ 3130.
Tricia Irish
3139. Tektonica
Yeah Leigh!! New post Monday, Dec. 7th!!
Thank you, thank you!

Hope you had some good R & R, and all is well.

We're waiting, ummmmm, impatiently!
T C
3140. Freelancer
J.Dauro@3120

Brandon recently said that Compulsion could defeat the Oath Rod. BTW, I do not believe that the forsaken used any form of binder ter'angreal to take those oaths, just the Black Ajah. Remember that they were surprised to learn that the Aes Sedai of the present age bound themselves like criminals. If the oaths to the dark one are accompanied by some form of being Compelled, it would override the oath taken using a binder.

Grijze Voz@3127

I find myself wondering why Asmodean would go looking for a decent wine in T'a'R, rather than the corporeal palace. Or would you suggest that he did not realize where he was?

Also, was there no damage done to the palace in the real world prior to Rahvin running to T'a'R? He and Rand did trade balefire shots at the beginning of the encounter, and it was after that when Rand felt Rahvin's gateway residue and matched it, ending up in T'a'R.


Heya Leigh! Thanks for letting us know how much longer we will twitch!
Ron Garrison
3141. Man-0-Manetheran
New Re-read Post! New Re-read Post! New Re-read Post! New Re-read Post! YEAH!!!!
Wilson Grooms
3142. alreadymadwithShaido
Even Mat's ex was a Shaido.

Re: Mesaana and Theodrin
Theodrin's in the rebel camp. Mesaana laired in the White Tower and does not seem to display a lot of knowledge about the goings on in the rebel camp. That was Halima's domain.

Freelancer @3140
There was dammage to the palace. Asmo could trace the glassy lines and knew what caused them.
Rob Munnelly
3143. RobMRobM
Only six days to crack 4000. Better get moving. R
Vecki
3144. vecki
Oooooh Leigh, a post on my birthday?! Makes getting older a bit more worthwhile :)
Rob Munnelly
3145. RobMRobM
An hour without a single post? Not a good start guys. Show Leigh what we're made of. Break it, break it, break it....

Edit - got one in the meantime. Excellent.
Wilson Grooms
3146. teirza
Dang! I quit reading at about post 800. I remember thinking we might get to 1500 before Leigh returned, but 3000 already, we really need something new. Thanks Leigh - a reason to love Monday again.
Wilson Grooms
3147. Grijze Vos
R.Fife @3128
Nor Rand, neither Rahvin used balefire. Rahvin used lihgting to kill. In T'A'R only Rand used balefire to kill Rahvin.

Freelancer @3140
No. Asmodean didn't realise he was in T'A'R. He didn't make a gate to T'A'R to get some wine, because he is much to weak. The gate was createn by his murderer.I think it was Lanfear.
john massey
3148. subwoofer
December & Santa is on his way, Leigh is on her way.

We are like butter eh? Yellow and greasy? Or is it taste so yummy but really fattening?

Saa what?

Wife has a teleconference so I can't chatter much and the dog is calling soooo.... awww I got nuthin'

Woof™.
Thomas Keith
3149. insectoid
Still lurking about.

Schrodinger @3065: Wasn't it mentioned in this mess somewhere that Moiraine the White could show up with the Ring? Just sayin'.

RobM² @3072: Now now, don't spoil it for me! I picked up the TPB omnibus of the Dark Elf Trilogy and still haven't read it. By the way... Will the story make sense to someone (like me) that doesn't know diddly-squat about D&D?

Man-O @3079: Mine doesn't say diddly about the paper, so maybe it's just a hardcover thing? Or did the other hardcovers say "acid-free paper"?

Free @3099: LOL.

Isilel @3119: Good points about the Shara mess. However:

Now, while it may be true that ultimate victory and defeat won't depend on armies...

Are you suggesting that Rand needs to go to the Pit of Doom and toss the Ring of Tamyrlin in?? Or maybe Fain needs to toss the SL dagger in. ;D

J.Dauro @3120: BAHAHAhahaha!! That would be cool.

Samadai @3124: Thank you much for the disturbing images (meaning Galina, Elaida, Fife, and 13x13, not your avatar--that's cool!).

R.Fife @3128: Let's see, how does that Whitecloak saying about coming back to the Light go...? Don't have a book handy; tried IdealSeek but couldn't find it. Anyone? Free?

Leigh @3137: Hi Leigh! Thanks for the reassurance. Hope everything is well.

RobM² @3143: That may be difficult. In the last 10 days (not including today), there's been an average of only about 51 comments per day (with an overall average of about 89 comments per day over the last 5 weeks).
Henry Loose
3150. schrodinger
have to clear away the rubble before we can start again... Has there been anything, and I mean ANYTHING that we have not discussed on this thread?

::scratches head::

I'm confused... was it R.Fife's new TP bunker or our cuendillar bunker that was destroyed? I could draw up some new plans for us.

Six days to new post. Six days 'till my final project for architecture is due. The 7th is going to be an interesting day.
Richard Fife
3151. R.Fife
@3157 From TFoH, paperback pg 934, chap55
He had only a moment's warning to throw himself flat, a hair-thin slice of time between feeling flows suddenly woven and an arm-thick bar of white light, liquid fire, slicing through the wall, ripping across like a sword where his chest had been. Where that bar slashed, on both sides of the hallways, wall and friezes, doors and tapestries ceased to exist. Severed wallhangings and chunks of stone and plaster broken freed to the floor.
So much for the Foresaken fearing to use Balefire. Who had told him that? Moiraine. She surely had deserved to live.
Balefire leaped from his hands, a brilliant white shaft streaking toward where that other bar had originated.
That happens two paragraphs before he reads the residue from Rahvin running to TAR and copies it. Asmo was in the real world (or at least was not in TAR solely for having seen balefire damage).

Another Asmo thought, since we are on it: RJ had said that it was both how and where a Forsaken dies determines if they are unresurrectable. So far, the Forsaken that have been resurrected could all be argued to have been in TAR when they died, so that might be the where. the Gar's first lives were at the Eye, which moves around and responds to need much like something in TAR (to which other, more intense people than myself originated the theory of the Eye having existed in a TAR pocket). Ishy died in TAR, then the corpse fell out into the real world. Lanfear was definitely at least not in our world when she died (well, now if she died with certain tricksy quotes from BwS about "Did Lanfear really die?")
Oh... Here's a thought. Maybe Lanfear wasn't DO resurrected, but instead she knew to ask the Finn, for her third wish, to be released alive. And what'd they do? They popped her out in a different body. She was then probably snatched up by Ishy or SH and dragged to the Pit of Doom to be mind-trapped. She had to have f'd up in the DO's eyes fairly much to have been Mind Trapped, seeing as death itself doesn't warrant it. Neither Gar was mindtrapped, after all. Hrmm.... Maybe the DO found out what she did to Asmo, and thus in training Rand.
Ron Garrison
3152. Man-0-Manetheran
insectoid @ 3149:

The old hardcover volumes all say "printed on acid-free paper". TGS says nothing - and the different feel is really obvious. The previous volumes are on much smoother, stronger paper. I sent a question about it to Tor customer service, but haven't gotten an answer.
Thomas Keith
3153. insectoid
Man-O @3152: ::fishes out hardcovers of CoT and KoD:: So they do--right above the publisher address! But not in TGS. I wonder why they would change the paper?

EDIT: The MMPB's do not have that message either (but that's probably because they're MMPB's). Don't know about the TPB's.
Rob Munnelly
3154. RobMRobM
Insectoid - no need to know D&D to understand Salvatore (my memory of that era and those monsters is largely limited to hanging out with my older brother when he played with his friends in college in the early 80s). Enjoy the books.

shro at 3150. We could use more focused attention on predicting plotlines of all significant characters in ToM. We've done a lot but hard to see that we've exhausted it entirely.
- Cadsuane's next moves after her psychic beatdown by Tam? Apologize? Go to Egwene? Send someone (Nyn?) to find Rand and bring him back?
- How about Amys and Sorlea - will they go to the White Tower when they hear good news about Egwene, with Cad or on their own?
- Is Rand going to lie low (as he'll have to for book purposes, otherwise there won't be room for the Perrin, Mat and Elayne plotlines that need to be covered)? How can he do it with so many women holding his bond and, if so, where will he go?
- What's the betting pool on how many Malkieri and other borderlanders will answer the call of the Golden Crane -- 1K? 10K? 20K?
- Where are Moggy's remaining BAs?
- What's the over/under on AS deaths due to the Seanchan assassins? 5? 15? 25? Anyone we know going to bite the dust?

ETC. Lots to talk about. Get cracking. Rob
Ron Garrison
3155. Man-0-Manetheran
RM2: Agree. The respect that the WO's have for Egwene certainly portends well for a reunion between the Aiel and AS. I look forward to the scene.
Wilson Grooms
3156. alreadymadwithposttgstalk
RobMRobM @3154
Cads apologize? It's possible. She's already acknowledged to herself that she mishandled her dealings with Rand. And Tam pointed out that she had overplayed her living legend status to somebody who doesn't care.

Amys and Sorilea don't really have any reason to go to the White Tower. No reason at all. Egwene has her own path, they have theirs.

Rand can't lie low because he still has to resolve the Seanchan. Mat and Perrin will most likely have their parts to play. And as for Elayne, I was under the impression that she was already where she was supposed to be and everybody else was gonna be playing catch up. Her rule over Andor is secure and the Andoran nobles have already mobilized their armies. I can't really stand another plot thread to detail what happens after the Succession. What is this a soap opera?

As for the borderlanders, the rulers themselves feel confident the Blight can be ably defended with what they left behind. That indicates a significant ratio compared to the 200K they brought with themselves. I'd guess 30-50% of that 200K can be raised/recruited. Assuming the bulk of these men will enlist with their own nation's armies, that would leave Lan with maybe a sixth to a fifth of that 30-50%. In short 10K-20K. Unless everybody decides to rally to his banner.
craig thrift
3157. gagecreedlives
Ok predictions for ToM

Cadsuane to get a recall and will give and receive an apology to/from Rand.

A better reunion between Tam and Rand. May also include some other Two Rivers folk.

Tuon unable to negotiate with Rand will send the Prince of the Ravens to do it for her.

The Band of the Red Hand with dragon cannons to be the saviour of Lan and the Malkieri army. Possibly Nynaeves doing while Mat is off playing in the Tower.

Mat to lose his eye in a bargain gone wrong with the Finns.

Gawyn to save Egwenes life from a seanchan assassin.

Loial to meet the Gardeners. The Gardeners to lead the Ogier in the last battle but leave the service of the Seanchan due to an escape clause involving steddings.
Henry Loose
3158. schrodinger
gagecreedlives

I don't think it will be a deal gone wrong with the Finns. When Mat when to the White Tower in TDR, he talked with Siuan and she asked him something along the lines of: when the flames are high, where will you be? (meaning will you be in the thick of it trying to save anyone you can?... this was in reference to a story about her uncle who died in a fire when he went into a burning building to save some children)... this also could be along the lines of Min's vision of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue stone out of a fire. Mat will willingly sacrifice his eye.
T C
3159. Freelancer
insectoid@3149

I don't know that it's a Whitecloak saying, but there's what Rand says to Ingtar: "No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light."

On the Dark Elf Trilogy, I've never touched D&D, and it has little bearing on your enjoyment of the Forgotten Realms books. It is worth note, however, that there are rules set in place for authors who intend to write in the Forgotten Realms universe, just for continuity's sake, and AD&D plays a part in those rules. It doesn't make the stories mysterious or hard to understand, but it can give them a canned feel, even for a master storyteller like Salvatore.


R.Fife@3151

::stares:: Ok, I want back the 10 minutes I just spent typing almost the exact same post, including the quote, commentary about that scene, and similar thoughts about T'a'R not being beyond the DO's grasp for catching a body.

See, I open a Notepad app when I'm prepping a comment, and deal with previous comments as I get to them. So I'd already finished with all that before I read your copy. ::mutter:: And the first person to make a "great minds" comment linking Richard and myself gets Rickrolled when you least expect it...
craig thrift
3160. gagecreedlives
schrodinger

You may be right, I may be crazy but the quote from KoD makes me think otherwise.

"Having those foxes in his head was a thousand times worse that the dice however hard the dice rattled. Could the Eelfinn see through his eyes? Light, what was he going to do? He doubted any Aes Sedai could heal him of this, not that he would trust them to, not when it meant leaving off the foxhead. There was nothing to be done."

Now I can so see Mat in the heat of the moment confronting the Eelfinn and demanding they get out of his head and stop looking through his eyes. Followed by a nice little plucking sound.
Henry Loose
3161. schrodinger
gagecreedlives

that could be part of it, but I think it will be voluntary. Due to all of the fortellings/dreams about him weighing an eye/half the light to save the world (and we already know that Moiraine needs to be there for Rand to succeed), I believe it could be that Mat asks them to release Moiraine, and also to get out of his head and stop seeing through his eyes... however, they could take this as the price he is willing to pay... lose the eye they see through.
craig thrift
3162. gagecreedlives
Yeah your probably right about it being voluntary schrodinger but I just like the idea of Mat losing his temper, losing his eye, then really losing his temper and a big Cauthon size can of whoop ass being opened.
Thomas Keith
3163. insectoid
Free @3159: Aha--now IdealSeek finds it: in TGH ch. 46 (the one you referenced) and TSR ch. 5. It might not be a Whitecloak saying, but it sure sounds to me like the sort of BS that a Whitecloak Questioner would say.

You and I seem to think alike; I do the Notepad thing too, if it's a long comment (like 3149).

GCL @3162:

losing his temper and a big Cauthon size can of whoop ass being opened

BAHAHAhahaha!!

EDIT: Guess what, folks? I'm starting to see occasional memory allocation errors on this page! It's TSR#10 all over again...
craig thrift
3164. gagecreedlives
Freelancer & insectoid

Didnt Bornhald say something similiar to Egwene and Perrin way back in tEotW. Something like no one can walk in the dark for so long that they cant repent. Except Perrin who was going to be hung for killing whitecloaks anyway.

Does that sound familiar to anyone else?
Thomas Keith
3165. insectoid
GCL @3164: Sounds like what I was thinking of. I will check TEotW (later) in the morning.
T C
3166. Freelancer
All this talk of plucking eyes, and now I'm seeing Uma Thurman snatching Daryl Hannah's one good eye out of her head.


As for what happens next, I would like the prologue to feature Loial at the Great Stump, convincing the Ogier to leave the Book sealed. And, a question. Do the Ogier of Seanchan carry on in the same vein, with extended meetings among inhabitants of several stedding? Do they know about, or care about, the Book of Translation? With the length of the fabled Ogier memory, it would be hard to imagine otherwise. Are the Gardeners the only manner of service for the Ogier in Seanchan lands? Are they granted longing leave for stedding visits?

Okay, that's more than one question.
Wilson Grooms
3167. whettingstone
@3166, Freelancer:

From what I remember reading (somewhere, can't say where) the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the longing due to there being a lot more steddings in Seanchan than in Randland.

Maybe some of the gurus can confirm or disprove my statement above?
Wilson Grooms
3168. LeeJH
KZK @3082 might have hit on something with Sulin. While Freelancer was the only one to respond, and say she wasn't with Rand, she was. She was the one poking her head back through the gateway giving the all clear, and then Aiel are holding R when he returns from Graendal's fortress. He added the BWS that not an error, so it ought to be discussed. BTW long time lurker, 1st post...had been thinking the same about Sulin.
Ed Rafferty
3169. BigBoy57
Just some random musings before this thread goes (thankfully) bye-bye.

This series badly needs (needed?) something like "The Council of Elrond" - remember how that clued everybody up, got them on the same page, gave them a chance to sort differences out, argue things out, decide on strategies, drink, eat and be merry - phew! - just what Randland needs. Hang on though - that happened 256 pages into LotR, how far into this epic are we? 6,000, 7,000 pages? What would we call it? The Council of ?????? - I give up.

One other thing - one of my favourite (private) looney theories was that Lews Therin had tried to Balefire himself so far out of the pattern that Ilyena would have been brought back to life - what an old romantic I am. Then somebody pointed out that "The Creator" (RJ) had said that LT only offed himself by OD'ing on the one power - rats!

Lately, thinking about this again, it came to me that it should be impossible to balefire oneself. Think about it - spin up the weaves, aim them at yourself and release them. Poof - sparkling motes fade away - what you did is unravelled from the pattern - but the first thing unravelled is your balefire weavings - pop! - that's you popping back into existence and shaking your head thinking WTF? Or is it like a hangfire - the pattern won't LET you balefire yourself, so it short circuits the firing mechanism, so to speak. Again I give up - I'll leave it to our gurus to sort out.
Ed Rafferty
3170. BigBoy57
Did we finally break Tor.com? The following gobbledegook is appearing at the bottom of my browser page. What does it mean?


Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 75497472 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 6401808 bytes) in /www/sites/www.tor.com/files/html/libraries/joomla/environment/response.php on line 178

Nah - it's still posting.
Jay Dauro
3171. J.Dauro
I do realize that BWS dropped a hint that Compulsion could be used to defeat the Oath Rod. But he also said we need to think of ways to beat it.

Longtimefan @2039
I missed this on my time through. (When you are 2000 behind to start, you do tend to read quickly.) But you came up with this idea first.

Brandon's first quote:
Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.


AMW @2331
Then, without any real prompting, he said there is a way to defeat the oath rod: Compulsion.


If you face Egwene to swear "You are not a Darkfriend" a simple compulsion will cover this answer. But you don't know what they are going to ask. So this compulsion starts to look a bit more complex. ("Have you ever served the Dark One?" "Have you ever opposed the Light?")
But when I think of the descriptions of Compulsion we have seen in TGS. Would I want those weaves of the power threaded through my brain? And can I do it to myself? I can't heal myself. If I can't, who am I going to get to do it? Semirhage? Moridin? I don't think so.
So I need to find someone that I can Compel to put the weave on me. This way I have a bit of control on what happens.

All in all, this doesn't look attractive (better than actually having to reveal myself, but not attractive.)

And BWS has "pretty much stated" it was done with Compulsion. Not flat out stated. So I have a bit of wiggle room. ;^)

This is why I speculated on using the Oath Rod to "Bind" myself before I have to show in front of everyone. We know the Oath Rod is a form of Compulsion that I can do to myself.

Still preventing the actual contact seems the easiest way.
Tricia Irish
3172. Tektonica
RobM@3154, gagecreedlives@3157, etal:
My humble predictions on your musings:

Predictions:
- Cadsuane's next moves after her psychic beatdown by Tam? Apologize?

-I think a nice serving of humble pie would take her a long way with Rand and Tam. A short scene where she brings them back together and apologizes could redeem her, and get Tam in Rand's life as an advisor. But could that happen?

-Could Cads Go to Egwene? Send someone (Nyn?) to find Rand and bring him back?

-Maybe she could go to Egs and tell her to unite with Rand and get ready for TG. Nynaeve has definitely emerged as Rand's most trusted AS, as she has a long history with him, and really cares about him, not just because he's the Dragon. She would be the logical choice to find him, but, she needs Min or Avi, who hold his bond to help her find him. See Rand below.


- How about Amys and Sorlea - will they go to the White Tower when they hear good news about Egwene, with Cad or on their own?

Don't see this happening. They would expect Egs to be successful. She is their student! And they have other things to do...TG? Rand? Keeping the Aiel from abandoning Rand? Cads could do some good in the Tower and Egs can keep her in her place. Maybe Cads bites it there, from one of the Seanchan assassins.


- Is Rand going to lie low (as he'll have to for book purposes, otherwise there won't be room for the Perrin, Mat and Elayne plotlines that need to be covered)? How can he do it with so many women holding his bond and, if so, where will he go?

There will probably be less Rand, but he should be integral to the resolution of the other plots....Perrin, Mat, Lan, Borderlanders, Seanchan.
Would so love the Big 3 to get back together! Will that happen before the last book?

Perrin and Loial get together, meet the Gardeners, find the song and sing. Weather improves from the song and Rand's new Lightness, (being one with the land), and people stop starving. This gives the people hope, and rallys them behind Rand for TG.

Mat saves Moraine, loses his eye (voluntarily, but crankily), and Moraine and Thom get a moment of romantic awesome. Then Mat does the negociating for Tuon with Rand, as per gagecreedlives@3157! Love that! Finally, he and Rand are back working together with the Seanchan, whew!

The Seanchan, btw, agree not to collar marathe'damane, will rule the lands they have taken already, and both Rand and Tuon Bow to Each Other.

Elayne is in place. A Rand/Elayne reunion might take place to get them on the same page, but one chapter, please. Does Rand even know she's pregnant? Why in the age of Traveling don't they see each other/talk more?
(I mean Avi knows. Has she told him?) Oh, I remember, no one communicates well. Right.

-And where did Moggys BA's go?

Black Tower? Various evil plots?Borderlanders? (I really don't trust them. They should be in the Blight. Why they brought an entire Army to look for Rand is very suspicious.)

And the Black Tower coup....I'm betting on Logain to beat up Taim, seize the tower and straighten things out. (Rand needs to mend fences with him too, btw. He hasn't been treated very well. Rand has lots of 'splaining and 'cusing to do.) Could be one of the Big Battles of the next book..BA bonders/Black Ashamen vs. Good AS bonders/Logain vs. FS = fireworks!

- What's the betting pool on how many Malkieri and other borderlanders will answer the call of the Golden Crane -- 1K? 10K? 20K?

- The borderlanders will get sorted out in Far Madding by someone, Nynaeve/Cads or Egs maybe?, and return to the Blight and be led by General Lan with Itularde and his army.

- What's the over/under on AS deaths due to the Seanchan assassins? 5? 15? 25? Anyone we know going to bite the dust?

-Not many....5, say. Egs gets mad. They are threatened. More fireworks!
Maybe Gawyn redeems himself here, saves Egs and becomes likable. Egs bonds Gawyn as her warder. (Elayne doesn't need him, she'll have Rand.) Maybe Cads is there and bites it. Can't lose Egs....too much plot invested.

Let's keep these predictions coming! It will be fun to look back on our follies.

Question: How do you make italics on these posts? My Mac doesn't give me any type choices...bold, italic, etc. How do you guys do it?
Wilson Grooms
3173. alreadymadwiththelight
Ingtar: No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light

Can't find Bornhald's actual quote in EoTW though.
john massey
3174. subwoofer
'K folks, I'm back in the game:)

I was reading TGS aloud to my dogs yesterday and we came across a couple of things.

Don't have it here in front of me but I laughed when I read about the Mayor of er... Hinderstap recounting what happens at night to Mat. Mat reflects to himself that Thom is memorizing everything and says that he hopes Thom gets Mat's part right in the ballad and that he remember's to mention his hat.

Also, in the back of the book in the glossary, the letter Moiraine gave to Thom was reprinted. Significant? I think so. Anyways, it goes on about Mat having to ask before Thom could reveal anything and so on.

Why would Mat not want to go to rescue Moiraine?

Thom was wondering about how much Mat needed him and lamenting about being a washed up old gleeman. The impression I get from the letter is that Thom is going to play an integral part in the ToG rescue. Several times in the text it was mentioned that Thom rivaled Morgase, Bryne, and others for playing the Game.

Moiraine told Thom to remember the Game when it comes to the 'Finn. Maybe that needs to be dissected, how to play the Game of Houses, or who is the master of that game. Lanfear? The Nobles fiddle with it, Aes Sedai play it in their sleep and for some royalty, the Great Captain Bryne and some Foresaken it comes as natural as breathing. I am thinking that maybe Farstrider will be along for the ride and Thom will be the great guide in this story arc.

Hmmmmmmmm

Woof™.
Matthew Smith
3175. blocksmith
ATM@3156

IIRC, the borderlanders indicate that one of the reasons (or validations) for leaving the borderlands was that the Blight was unusually quiet at the moment. This may mean it is not quite as well defended as you might think.

And wow is the page loading slowing down...near 3200 comments must weigh quite a bit.
Barry T
3176. blindillusion
Tek@3132

]i[ word ]/i[

Turn the brackets around and you get this.

Bold is ]b[ ]/b[

It's all in the bbCode link right above the post box.
Wilson Grooms
3177. alreadymadwiththegame
subwoofer @3174
You need not go far to find a master of the Game of Houses. Thom is himself, a very accomplished player, having been known as the Silver Fox during his time as courtbard of Caemlyn.

blocksmith @3175
Can't really tell without the books handy. I do recall them saying that their realms could be ably defended even if the Blight suddenly got active again.

What I really want to learn is how to do the strikethrough.
Sam Mickel
3178. Samadai
What the borderlanders said was. The lands are protected well enough, short of a second trolloc war starting.
Tricia Irish
3179. Tektonica
blind@3176

Thank you so much! I've corrected my post at 3172 to read easier, putting RobM's questions in ital.

Thanks for the hint on the bbcode link too. Obviously, I don't visit many bulletin boards or write HTML.

I'll be freakin' hip soon. Haha.

And how do you do the strike through?
Tess Laird
3180. thewindrose
amw - it would be strikeout, but the admin team would need to allow use of it for us.
Sam Mickel
3181. Samadai
As for Lans' army, I am thinking it is going to be quite large. Nynaeve finds three people to follow him in a little flyspeck village near Worlds end. In New Spring Lan sees many men who were from Malkier in Canluum, which is a big city. He has 1300 miles to cross and word is going to spread like wildfire as he travels east. Just for example look at what Talmanes did with the band in one country that isn't even united, he doubled the Bands size. 7000 more troops in a matter of months, following a general no one really knows much of. Every one in the Borderlands knows of Lan and most of them are hoping that Lan will raise the Golden Crane once more. Think about how much population is needed to support an army of 250k men, at least ten times that amount, and that is only part of the Borderlands armies.

I am going to step out on a limb and say by the time Lan gets to Sheinar he will have an army in excess of 200 thousand with an extra 20-30 thousand camp followers.
Jack Diamond
3182. violetdancer
Re: Compulsion and the Oath Rod.

I don't believe that anyone from the AOL would willingly touch a binder. Given the hint by BWS, I have to think horses not zebras. The easiest way for Mesaana to defeat the Oath Rod would be to Compel witnesses to believe that she swore the oath on it.

I didn't see The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai on the movie list.
Tess Laird
3183. thewindrose
Why would Mat not want to go to rescue Moiraine? - subwoofer

Well, he really is not fond of AS at all, and even thinks to himself that he is only doing this for his good friend Thom. This is another one of those *funny* things that happen to Mat, he always ends up doing/having exactally the opposite of what he wants.
Ron Garrison
3184. Man-0-Manetheran
J.Dauro @ 3171 re. Oath Rod
Because the Oath Rod was originally used on lawbreakers who could channel, the Rod itself uses Compulsion. Whatever oath is sworn, the Rod then compels the swearer to obey.

Think about the Foresaken - Graendal in particular. The woman practically invented Compulsion, or at least has taken it to the max. If you were one of the other Foresaken, wouldn't you think real hard to warding against Compulsion?

I think that Mesaana simply wove a Ward against Compulsion, inverted the weave so that it couldn't be seen, and swore like a sailor.

Tektonica @ 3172 re. italics et. al.
Not a Mac/PC thing. Click on the bbCode link above the POST A COMMENT box. Another little window will open showing the codes. You have to insert them manually - whether you are on a PC or a Mac. I use a Windoze box at work (dammit) and a Mac at home. edit: I see blindillusion has already helped.

Subwoofer @ 3174 re. Mat's hat and all that
I'm with you on all that. Question: Where did Mat pick up this hat in the first place? I do not remember.

All re. Borderlanders
I think it falls appropriately to Nyn to go set them back on the path and join Lan. She is the legitimate Queen of Malkier which puts her on the same level as the other leaders, not to mention being a mighty, mighty kickass AS!
Wilson Grooms
3185. Dedicated
violetdancer @3182

The problem with compelling witnesses to believe that she swore the oath on the binder is she has to compel everyone at once. The scene as I recall was of ALL the Aes Sedai gathered in the courtyard before the tower reswearing the oaths one at a time before everybody. I do not think it would be possible to place compulsion on 500 Aes Sedai at one time. Especially since they would be on the lookout for anybody who was going to try to anything else except swear on the rod.
Wilson Grooms
3186. alreadymadwithcompulsion
J.Dauro @ 3171

I don't think Brandon is throwing us red herrings. I think he wants us to know, but he can't tell us. Remember, he's been a fan himself all these years. Also, she can't take a prior Oath on the Oath Rod, because all oaths are removed before the oaths are re-sworn.

Dedicated @ 3185: exactly. My bet is that Moridin Compells Mesaana after her claim that she had a virtual army of Darkfriends, then spectacular failure.

@ Various

In Chapter 30 of tEotW, Geofram Bornhald asks Byar what to do with Egwene and Perrin. Byar says to kill them. Bornhald says, "No man is so lost that he cannot be brought to the Light."
Tess Laird
3187. thewindrose
From WOT Characters, Chapter PoV's(tSR) - Misdirections - Mat has been eyeing Kadere's wide brimmed hat and offers him a gold mark for one like it. A hugely fat woman with a lovely voice comes up from the second wagon. She takes Kadere's hat and gives it to Mat while introducing herself as Keille Shaogi. She says she seldom offers any man a bargain twice.3 Mat pays for the hat and puts it on.
::grimace - load time is annoying::
Kurt Lorey
3188. Shimrod
@3184 Man-o-Manetheran

Lanfear (in the disguise of Keille Shaogi) sold Hadnan Kadere's hat to Mat in the Waste.

edit: @3187 thewindrose. Quit whining! Your load time is better than mine! ;)
Tricia Irish
3189. Tektonica
M O M @3184

Thanks for the tip, as well. I think I've got it now. My condolences on your Windoze at work. I"ve never had one, but my husband does. Can you say clunky? (Not meaning to start an Op war here, just sympathizing!)

As for Mat's hat....he got it from the peddler in the waste...the baddie DF that was traveling with Lanfear in disguise. (When Rand and Mat were traveling from Rhuidean to Cold Rocks hold.) It was the peddlers hat, and Mat needed one for sun protection SPF, so he bought it from him. Do you think it has traceable properites? A magic hat?
Richard Fife
3190. R.Fife
Man-o-Man: Lanfear gave Mat the hat in TSR when he offered to buy it off of the other peddler's head (Hadran Karede? Can't remember for sure, and at work without books)
Tricia Irish
3191. Tektonica
Shimrod@3188

Thanks for providing the names. I can't remember my friend's names anymore, let alone all these characters.

It's Hadnan Kadere. (Kerede is a Seanchan general). And Lanfear's name was Keille Shaogi when in disguise. Mat offers 1 gold mark for the hat. Lanfear snatches it off Hadnan's head and says, "I seldom offer any man a bargain twice."[ SR, p. 592 in paperback./i]
Wilson Grooms
3192. tearl
Samadai@3181

Basically agree with you. In particular, he'll sweep up Renald Fanwar and Thulin.
Jay Dauro
3193. J.Dauro
Man-o-Manetheran @3184

Yes, if a ward against Compulsion is possible, that would be the best way. But do we know that it is possible? IIRC Brandon's comments said "Compulsion" not "Ward against Compulsion"

AMW @3186

Interesting. Do we yet know that Oaths on one rod are removed by a different rod? Can we set an "Oath" that cannot be removed?

No matter what, I still don't want Semi or Moridin, etc putting Compulsion on me. And we have often be told that doing certain weaves on yourself is difficult or impossible. So unless we are looking at a ward, I am still wondering how I would use Compulsion to block the Oath Rod.
Jay Dauro
3194. J.Dauro
Removed Double-Post
Wilson Grooms
3195. Lindal
Looney Theory:
Could Laras be Mesaana? Verin says she is many things, but not Black Ajah.
Barry T
3196. blindillusion
Lindal@3195

That theory has been discussed and for the most part discounted. Laras was in New Spring and has stayed in Character throughout the series.

I tend to think she either works with the Kin by sending runaways to them, or she simply helps runaways get out.
Wilson Grooms
3197. alreadymadwithLaras
Lindal @ 3195

Do a search for Laras on this page. There are fifty instances. (Well, fifty-two now.) The short answer is that she is almost surely not Mesaana.

Verin says that Laras is many things, but not a Darkfriend. She was specifically looking for Mesaana but couldn't find her.
Jay Dauro
3198. J.Dauro
Lindal @ 3195

See 230, 245, 268, 308, 309 (probably the definitive quote), 352, 364, 376, 380, 388, 399 ...
Ron Garrison
3199. Man-0-Manetheran
J.Dauro @ 3194

OK, I've spent waaay too much time trying to do a Find on BWS's remarks about the Oath Rod and Compulsion. I give up, the Board is now maxing out all the RAM on this PC.

However, I'm pretty sure that BWS, in his vague AS way, said that the Oath Rod was linked to (works with) Compulsion. We do know that Compulsion is a Spirit weave, btw. I don't think he actually implied that the way to defeat it was Compulsion. If someone can come up with the quote, I know I'd appreciate it. Until then, I'm sticking with my Ward Against Compulsion theory. (Pat. Pending)
Thomas Keith
3200. insectoid
BigBoy57 @3169: I believe, if there was one, that it would be called The Council of Moiraine. ;)

BigBoy57 @3170: I saw it too, earlier this morning.

AMW @3173: Okay, I found it. Near the end of TEotW ch. 30, Bornhald to Byar:

Remember that the Tenets also say, 'No man is so lost that he cannot be brought to the Light.'

Tektonica @3179: I think strikethrough went bye-bye somewhere around TSR#10...

EDIT: 3200... I'm afraid Tor.com may go boom soon... *twitch*
Jack Diamond
3201. violetdancer
Dedicated@3182

Of course you're right. All this puzzling caused me to have a brain fart. I was thinking about how the BA hunters used the Oath Rod: one at a time with only a few witnesses present.

Tektonica@3189

Magic hat indeed! Mat got it from Lanfear's hand. Besides a Finder what evil lurks...?
Wilson Grooms
3202. Eric Coplin
I searched this discussion and couldn't find this question before...hopefully I didn't miss it.

Do we ever find out why Tam fought for Illian in the Aiel War? Wouldn't he have fought for Andor? I don't recall this ever being refereneced before. Perhaps he had some kind of falling out involving Morgase back then?
Birgit
3203. birgit
Moiraine told Thom to remember the Game when it comes to the 'Finn. Maybe that needs to be dissected, how to play the Game of Houses, or who is the master of that game.

She writes that he should remember the game Snakes and Foxes, not the Game of Houses.

You need not go far to find a master of the Game of Houses. Thom is himself, a very accomplished player, having been known as the Silver Fox during his time as courtbard of Caemlyn.

He was the Gray Fox, not the Silver Fox.
Wilson Grooms
3204. Silvertip
@3202:

That's a really interesting question that I haven't seen discussed either (at least on this thread). I had always assumed that Tam was just out wandering around and happened to be in Illian when the Companions were recruiting (aren't they something like the French Foreign Legion anyway?), but it certainly could be that there's more to the story. (Loony theory time: Something to do with why Morgase heard the speech of the Two Rivers in her youth? or are we all just overthinking that statement?) I believe that one of the planned prequels, which now may or may not be written, involved Tam and Kari, perhaps those events are part of what was plotted for that, er, plot.

@3157 From the standpoint of the characters, I really like the idea of Gawyn saving Egwene from a Bloodknife ... but, from the last chapter of TGS, I have the idea that some time (a few days at least) has passed since the Seanchan assault/BA purge. Repairs to the walls are underway, Egwene is commenting on Silviana's effectiveness as keeper, so forth. (Agreement/disagreement from the resident Gurus and Apprentice Gurus?) Wouldn't the little buzzer on the assassins' lives have gone off before that?

@ various: I'm thinking we'll see relatively little of Rand on-stage in ToM, not because he's lying low, but because ToM will overlap a good deal in chronology with both TGS (including some catchup with Mat and Perrin, as well as a cameo by Graendal setting up her demise and (ha!) revealing that she killed Asmodean) and with the first portion of AMoL. In other words, Rand's first POV's in AMoL won't be that much later in clock time than his scene on top of Dragonmount, but we'll already have seen contemporary events at the Tower of Ghenjei and Black Tower by then.

Just speculating --

S
Ben Goodman
3205. goodben
@ R Fife 3024 & RobMRobM 3021

The animated movie Flight of Dragons also draws a lot of the plot from the Gordon R. Dickson novel _The Dragon and the George_ which is very good (much better than the movie Flight of Dragons).

The plot is about a newly minted American English Ph.D. whose fiancee gets sent to another world through a bizarre experiment. He follows after her but finds himself trapped in the body of a dragon named Gorbash and his fiancee is kidnapped by the Dark Powers. He has to rescue here while being trapped in the body of a dragon in a mideivel-ish England that has dragons, talking wolves, and magicians. The title is due to dragons calling humans georges.

I also like the sequel written many years later called _The Dragon Knight_ was also very good. After that Dickson wrote a bunch of others mostly titled The Dragon and the _____ which were also fun.
Wilson Grooms
3206. Dedicated
Silvertip @3204

Yes, I agree time has passed, but we do not know what all has transpired besides whatever Egwene is thinking about. I am pretty sure, without being able to check my books right now, that this would not be the first time we got a fast forward view from a character and then later got a fill in of events that happened to them before that POV was fulfilled. So maybe by the time Egwene is thinking these thoughts Gawyn has already saved Egwene from the assassins and is her warder. Only Team Jordan knows.
Wilson Grooms
3207. joefred
The Rand plotline has been the truly central theme throughout the series. It was always leading here. The danger to Rand, and the danger to the Wheel is not necessarily that he loses, but that he WINS, wins as this Rand, doesnt just defeat the DO but defeats him AND TAKES HIS PLACE. Thats why he can draw on the True Power WITHOUT the DO's permission, without channelling Moridin. The Dragon Reborn and the Kinslayer were never different, they are the same person, just as Moridin is Ishamael. Remember, Moridin was surprised to see Rand - "Why did you come here?" even as Rand thought it was his dreams being invaded. And the link between Moridin and Rand seems to me to be between brothers, twins even. "After 70 years of studying I still dont know what the DO thinks, or why he does what he does."
Sam Mickel
3208. Samadai
Just some random speculation on Tam.

Maybe when he left home he went to Caemlyn for several years, maybe joined the guard, met Kari Trakand, married her. She didn't like the way people gossiped about her husband so the moved to Illian with a recommend from Morgase to join the Companions. They lived there for a while, long enough for Tam to rise through the ranks to Second Captain. Then He fought in the Aiel war. Finds Rand on Dragonmount and deciding he has had enough of war and death, quits the Companions and heads to the 2 rivers with Rand and Kari.
Wilson Grooms
3209. Silvertip
@3208 Samadai, do we know from somewhere that Kari was named Trakand? Or is that part of the speculation?
Julian Augustus
3210. Alisonwonderland
Jeez, I keep falling farther and farther behind!

Blindillusion:
Anyway, I've been reading up on the Vlad Taltos books. Can anyone recommend a reading order? I'm thinking of getting the compilation books: The Book of Jhereg, the Book of Taltos, the Book of Athyra and going on from there.

You should definitely read the books in publication order, in the exact order you have listed in the compilations above. Actually, what you have is exactly the way I also started.

The reason it is best to start in publication order is this. The first book, Jhereg, shows Vlad as a kind of caporegime in the Dragaeran underworld; he controls his own territory and runs crap games, prostitution, you name it. The following books move back and forth from his beginnings to continuing from here he is in Jhereg. I found the filling in of events only referred to in later books somewhat tantalizing.

More important, Jhereg, and the following book, Yendi, have the most complex impossible tasks that Vlad had to fulfill. It is an excellent place to start and to get to know the characters. Armed with an understanding of Vlad's quirks and foibles, the simpler plots in the chronologically earlier books like Taltos, are easier to understand and enjoy. I'm not sure that someone starting with Taltos will get the same enjoyment of the books.
Tess Laird
3211. thewindrose
In the WOT Character site, Kari is described as a merchant's daughter from Caemlyn, but of course little is really known of her.

Samadai - is your new avatar a picture of you on a very steep snowy mountain? - inquiring minds want to know:)

Silver fox/gray fox - snicker - Thom could do a commercial.

I am home now, and I am going to check out the Glossary - sounds like I am missing some new stuff.
Barry T
3212. blindillusion
Alisonwonderland

Thanks much. Now if I could just find the books. None of the books stores around here have a copy of the fist compilation.

And after a rather bad situation with Amazon, I don't like ordering books online.

Oh well...might have to give them another chance. But at the moment I've started Hobb's Farseer trilogy, so we'll see.
Sam Mickel
3213. Samadai
Kari being a Trakand was just speculation, but from Brandons look when I asked him, Who knows.

Thewindrose@3210, it is definitely a man picking up a baby on a snowy mountain ;)
Roger Powell
3214. forkroot
alreadymadwithcompulsion@3186
I don't think Brandon is throwing us red herrings. I think he wants us to know, but he can't tell us
Omigod!

I can see it now. Harriet, Alan, and Maria are standing around a seated Brandon Sanderson as he gets ready to sign the contract to complete AMoL.

Harriet: "OK Brandon, before you sign, we need you to hold this pretty little rod and swear that you will not reveal certain WoT plot lines."

(Maria is concentrating strangely during all of this.)
Wilson Grooms
3215. alreadymadwithoathrodbws
Does the oath rod work on men? Non channeling men?
Wilson Grooms
3216. LeeJH
This is a re-post from 3169 since it raised no discussion nor did anyone open the bunker door although I brought choc. chip cookies. Oh well.

KZK @3082 might have hit on something with Sulin being Graendal. While Freelancer was the only one to respond, and say she wasn't with Rand, she was. She was the one poking her head back through the gateway giving the all clear, and then Aiel are holding Ramshalan when he returns from Graendal's fortress. KZK added the BWS comment that Sulin's appearance was not an error, so it ought to be discussed. BTW long time lurker, 1st post...had been thinking the same about Sulin.
Patrick Huff
3217. pattack
I browsed through most of the posts, so if this has been brought up forgive me.


As far as we know from Ba'alzamon-Ishamael-Morridin, the Wheel of Time has spun out mant last battles in the past. The DO has never won or the wheel would stop. The breaking of the world destroyed much of what was. Documents, civilizations even most of the land and seas had changed.

My question is why isn't there any discussions from previous ages regarding prophesy? Is LTT the original dragon? If he is then obviously Morridin is lying. It is inevitable that the DO will eventually win, one of the dragons is bound to slip up.

This is puzzling if this (last battle) has taken place hundreds of times already, why would anyone even bet on the DO actually pulling this one out?

I know some of this doesn't make sense, I am having a little trouble articulating my thoughts on this issue, because I am confused as to how this hasn't been addressed by the author. I hope that Morridin is lying about the ages past, because it would be hard to hide all the inventions, technology, relics and civilizations even with the breaking.

Is the next series of books going to have book 3 The Dragon Re-reborn? GRRRR... help me people any guruish thoughts would be welcome.
T C
3218. Freelancer
Eric Coplin@3202

My personal presumption regarding Tam (because it always did seem more like he should have gone into the Andoran forces), was that Illian was actively recruiting for an action against Tear during a time when he was handy, and he rose quickly during that time, so stuck with them through the Aiel War.


Pattack@3217

That has always been my only serious issue with a series of this nature. The concept of a repeating temporal "cycle", while popular among some philosophies, is irrational. As the foundation for a story such as this, it always has many more questions than it could possibly answer. So at some point, you have to dismiss those implausibilities, and just enjoy the story on the merit of the author's craft. ::shrug::
Thomas Keith
3219. insectoid
Fork @3214: BAHAHAhahaha!! That is too funny!
Rob Munnelly
3220. RobMRobM
Re Tam, the Illian companions are the only army in Randland that is open to people of all countries and economic classes and people rise to the top through merit rather than noble birth. Why go to Andor and be part of an army of one of the nobles when you can go to Ilian without limits.

Samadai, it is possible that Kari is a minor Trakand or (more likely) a Trakand-aligned merchant family but my supposition is that he rose to be an officer first and then met Kari during a stay in Camelyn rather than vice versa. I believe in TGH Moiraine stated he joined the companions at an early age, which is inconsistent with supposition. (A fun one, even if it doesn't work. Keep em coming.)

Rob
Wilson Grooms
3221. Silvertip
Freelancer@3218: As it sounds like you know, in eternal recurrence qua Nietzsche (if I remember correctly from Lo These Many Years Ago) the repeating times are alleged to be identical states of the universe to the last detail -- so there would be no possibility of a different outcome the next time around. (Those ideas actually had weird similarities to some principles of statistical mechanics, at least until the quantum versions blew things to hell). Anybody know if RJ was a Nietzsche reader?
craig thrift
3222. gagecreedlives
LeeJH@3216

I really doubt Graendal could pull of being Sulin. For starters she would need to enough about the ji’e’toh not to make any errors, she would have to learn maiden hand talk and I seriously doubt she would have sufficient skill in scouting to blend in with the aiel.

Pattack@3217

Maybe the dark one cant win and knows it. And she/he/it is just doing it for shits and giggles to pass the time. After all nobody really knows what the DO wants.
T C
3223. Freelancer
Silvertip@3221

RJ was an everything reader. Mythology, philosophy, psychology, religion, literature, history, etc. Not necessarily in that order, but his expertise in each is evident. I daresay one wouldn't get too far in an academic pursuit of philosophy without encountering Neitzche, Des Carte, Voltaire and the like. While each had some seminal thoughts, I'm not a fan of the overall views of any of those three. I find much better philosophy coming from those founded in the hard sciences: Einstein, Newton, Tesla.

Now, to your real point, WoT as a cosmology obviously allows for a different outcome on each cycle of the Wheel. Whether any of the things Ishamael told Rand were true or not regarding Lews Therin serving the shadow on some turnings, there's little question that we are expected to accept that such is plausible.

At the same time, I find myself trusting Rand when he replies that he is certain he has never bowed to the dark one, not in any of his myriad lives.

But as much as I appreciate the epiphany that bounces Rand off of rock bottom, I oppose belief in such a worldview very strongly. The idea that with the repeated turnings of the Wheel, or even from age to age within a turning, souls have new chances to live, and love, to "get things right this time", is not the structure that any sentient, powerful Creator would generate. And that brings me right up against where folks would begin to lose interest in the discourse which would follow.
Wilson Grooms
3224. Grijze Vos
R.Fife @3151

Sorry, I didn’t mention this in my theory. But…., it didn’t happen! Using OP creates a paradox. The pattern has created a new reality from the moment Rahvin was no longer a part of it till the moment he died. Rahvin was already ripped out the pattern before Mart, Avi and Asmo were killed. In this new reality Rahvin don’t exist anymore and can’t use balefire. And would Rand try to balefire a not existing man? This paradox still gives me headache: how could Rand kill a not existing man.
Vince Ranalli
3225. Vincer40
leighdb@3137
(Hi all,
New Re-read post going up Monday, December 7th.
Thanks to everyone for being so patient, you're like butter.)

YAY!!!! We have missed you Leigh I hope you have had a nice time off (haha! really?) I look forward to Dec 7th.

Vince
Wilson Grooms
3226. whettingstone
@3224, Grijze:
According to what you're saying balefire cannot be used as how can something be used on someone or something that doesn't exist?

Balefire is paradoxical as a spell (or weave I guess) but I think the analogy that RJ used explains it well; imagine a thread that is set on fire. It burns for a little while (depending on the strength of the "caster"). Thus, balefire "rewrites" history but without the balefire nothing would have happened.

It's basically the same as using a timemachine and killing your parents before you were born. What happens to you then? Paradox.

Not sure if that made sense.
Just accept that balefire is paradoxical.
Tricia Irish
3227. Tektonica
joefred@3207
The Rand plotline has been the truly central theme throughout the series. It was always leading here. The danger to Rand, and the danger to the Wheel is not necessarily that he loses, but that he WINS, wins as this Rand, doesnt just defeat the DO but defeats him AND TAKES HIS PLACE. Thats why he can draw on the True Power WITHOUT the DO's permission, without channelling Moridin. The Dragon Reborn and the Kinslayer were never different, they are the same person, just as Moridin is Ishamael. Remember, Moridin was surprised to see Rand - "Why did you come here?" even as Rand thought it was his dreams being invaded. And the link between Moridin and Rand seems to me to be between brothers, twins even. "After 70 years of studying I still dont know what the DO thinks, or why he does what he does."

Very interesting new theory. I don't know about Rand becoming the DO, because of past iterations of him, but I agree that Rand and LTT were never separate people. Rand just realized LTT was his memory and perhaps there will be others.
Wilson Grooms
3228. Aneid
@3217. pattack

The books address the turnings of the Wheel in different ways. The stories of the Soviet and US fighting with lances of fire (missiles). The tale of someone flying to the moon. Then there was Rands thoughts when the Horn of Valere was sounded. Rand knew all the heroes of the horn and by countless names from other turnings of the wheel. The Mercedes Benz emblem in the Shadow rising. The portal stones, as Lanfear stated that they were artifacts from before her age, and not completely understood.

I agree with your assertion that completely and utterly destroying any evidence of past turnings seems completely loony. But as Freebaser stated “So at some point, you have to dismiss those implausibilities, and just enjoy the story on the merit of the author's craft. ::shrug::
Wilson Grooms
3229. Aneid
Obviously I meant Freelancer … sorry Free
Wilson Grooms
3230. Grijze Vos
Whettingstone @3226

I can accept the paradox as far as it concerns the death of Rahvin in T’A’R. But Rand and Rahvin used balefire in Caemlin before and caused a lot of damage. This struggle took place in the "rewritten” history; so there isn’ t any damage in Caemlin anymore. See also 3147 and 3151
Matthew Smith
3231. blocksmith
Tektonica@3227

I understand your view and opinion, but the discussion of LTT being a memory, separate soul trapped within Rand, split personality, etc., has yet to be resolved even with Rand's statement on the Mount.

Remember, it was both LTT's memories and voice that were in Rand's head. Mat never carried on conversations with his memories. He learned from them, but there was no back and forth discussion on the merits of cavalry out-flanking foot-soldiers.

Rand, from the POVs we were provided, on occasion sought out council and information from the "memory" in his head and carried on conversations. Also, that "memory" tried and succeeded, on occasion, to seize saidin and channel.

Therefore, LTT split personality...maybe. LTT a separate entity trapped within Rand...maybe. Just a memory? I don't believe that is likely.
Matthew Smith
3232. blocksmith
Grijze Vos@3231

I think you may be missing something here...let's say that Mat, Aviendha, and Asmo had been balefired by Rahvin instead of killed with a lightning blast...there would be no more M, A, Asmo no matter how large a balefire Rand put on Rahvin. Balefire burns out people/things from the pattern...therefore, anything balefired by Rahvin before he was balefired by Rand would remain...balefired.

Is that a record for saying balefired in one sentence?
Wilson Grooms
3233. alreadymadwithselftalk
blocksmith @ 3231

Mat never carried on conversations with his memories, but he also never channeled tainted saidin nor had the fate of the world riding so clearly on his shoulders. Also, he knew the mechanism by which the new memories were implanted, where Rand did not understand his past lives. As has been argued at great length elsewhere, creating a separate personality is a common way of dealing with stress. This doesn't mean that people with split personalities are actually more than one person.
Tricia Irish
3234. Tektonica
blocksmith@3231 and alreadymadwithselftalk@3233

I agree with selftalk, split personality stress disorder.

IMHO, Rand was so freaked out when these "memories" started appearing, he gave them a name and separate personality. Finally, on Dragonmount, he gets it, and doesn't expect to hear LTT again. We get to go around again and he understands that he doing just that!

I'm just hoping that if there are other iterations of LTT/Rand/Dragon in his head, he might get some help from those memories in dealing with the DO.

If we do go around again, wouldn't it be nice if we could understand our past lessons and move forward, and not have to repeat past errors! Here's hopin'...
Wilson Grooms
3235. Silvertip
@3223 Freelancer: good thoughts ... I completely agree with you that at some point under this cosmology paradox is inevitable if you think too hard about things, so we just appreciate the fact that it was constructed well enough to not detract from the telling of the story. (The same thing is true about balefire, which joins time travel as a species of reverse causality that renders a completely logically consistent story undoable). It'll be interesting to see how many layers of this onion RJ/BwS/Team Jordan peel off in the final volume, I can't escape the suspicion that there is another reveal or two coming about how the system is supposed to work via which form Rand's (presumed) ultimate victory takes.

S
Wilson Grooms
3236. Grijze Vos
Blocksmith @3232

If Rahvin was removed from the pattern before he killed Asmo, Avi and Mart he cannot use balefire at that moment because he don't exist anymore. So, those three would live anyhow. (see Moraine's explication in tFoH, chapter 6).
So I think you are missing something here!
Sydo Zandstra
3237. Fiddler
Finally caught up reading this Mother of Threads...

@Grijze Vos
I think what blocksmith means is that Rahvin didn't BF any people, but just fired a few misses doing damage to the palace using that weave.

The shot at Asmodean, Mat and Aviendha was a lightning bolt, as stated.

If it had been BF, they wouldn´t have been brought back by a huge BF shot at Rahvin, because they´d have been been burned out of the pattern (their current lives, not their souls). Balefire damages the Pattern. You cannot repair that by more balefiring.


And yay!. More Dutch people...
Matthew Smith
3238. blocksmith
Grijze Vos@3236

You may be missing my point...

Yes, Mat, Avi, and Asmo were "reborn" because Rahvin was removed from the pattern by balefire far enough back so that his channeling of lightning had not occurred. However, it has been explained by many who have thought this out much more than I(even to the point of asking the Creator himself) that the effects of someone using balefire would not be reversed if that person themselves was balefired. This is part of the balefire paradox commenters are referring to.

That is why the initial damage caused by Rahvin prior to entering TAR with Rand chasing remains.

I like your idea that Asmo stumbled into TAR and he was seeing balefire damage as he was looking for the pantry in TAR. Unfortunately, we don't have enough evidence to conclude this (or how he got there)with the current information. Therefore, the damage he was noticing could have been in the palace or in TAR.

Edit: added from
Wilson Grooms
3239. Grijze Vos
I like to say my last post in other words:
Mart, Avi and Asmo were killed by lihgtning, but they are still alive, because no lihgtning was used
Wilson Grooms
3240. Grijze Vos
I like to say my last post in other words:
Mart, Avi and Asmo were killed by lihgtning, but they are still alive, because no lihgtning was used
Rob Munnelly
3241. RobMRobM
From Brandon Sanderson's site - not necessarily good news. And I was hoping for it to hit the shelves by the end of summer. Rob

++++++

Right now I'm back hard at work at TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT, which I'm guessing will come out more toward the end of November 2010 rather than exactly a year after THE GATHERING STORM
Patrick Huff
3242. pattack
Another wonderful tale had me thinking the same thing. LOTR is an awesome story, probably my fave. JRR Tolkien created an entire world just barely unreal. The charactors are inspiring, the depth of the detail of Middle Earth is like none other, but why didn't any of them ask the Eagles to carry the damn ring to the Volcano and drop it in?

I'm not saying it detracts from my love of the story or the fact that the dark one has an 0'fer going detracts from my fascination of the Wheel of Time, I just thought that it would be interesting to hear some ideas from some of the posters.

Freebaser Ha Ha Ha!!!! Light up everybody, join us in this celebration.....
Wilson Grooms
3243. Mzlorraine
He's re-writing Matt :X
Wilson Grooms
3244. Grijze Vos
Fiddler @3237

Hello, fiddler, are you sitting on the roof. Anyhow, thank you for welcoming the dutchies.

Fiddler @ 3237, Blocksmith 3238

I agree with you that a person that is balefired cannot be revived. But this is a different situation:
Mart, Avi and Asmo were balefired, but they are still alive, because balefire was never used .
Oh, how I love this paradox. In this “rewritten “ history Rahvin did use lightning nor balefiring, because he didn’t exist. Neither did Rand use balefire until he killed Rahvin. Before there was no need to use it, because Rahvin didn’t exist.
Barry T
3245. blindillusion
RobM@3241

I'll throw my hat out there and say as long as it gets published in 2010 I'll be happy.

~~~~~

On a more world news note, I'd like to give you this:

Saving the World one country at a time. Let's start with Sweden.
T C
3246. Freelancer
::nods to Aneid, pokes Pattack:: Never went that way, watched too many friends flame out because of it. I would have had a mildly unpleasant comment for Aneid, but for the correction. It was clearly unintentional, and that's cool. Had it been otherwise, I have little tolerance for being tagged with a drug reference, and would have shown my bad side. Pattack, grow up.

Grijze Vos

If I may take a stab at this conundrum... Balefire exists outside of the Pattern, and must if it affects time. So when Rand balefired Rahvin, actions of his which occured in time, and within the Pattern, if you will, were nullified by a reversal of the temporal impact of those actions. If, however, he had used balefire to kill anyone prior to his own demise, the channeling which did so would itself have been outside of time, and could not be reversed by Rahvin being balefired. That's the best I can offer as an answer.


Silvertip@3235

Time-based logical errors can be found in any and every story which purports to alter, or allow non-standard movement through, the time continuum. I give you an example, from a movie my wife absolutely adores. In "Somewhere in Time", where does the pocketwatch originate?


RobMRobM

Brandon has been saying all along that the expected release timeframe for Towers of Midnight and A Memory of Light would each be a year from the previous volume, unless something went wrong. So not really bad news, it is the expected news.
Rob Munnelly
3247. RobMRobM
Free - I had thought he was ahead of TGS pace and would be in position to get it published comfortably before late Oct. 09. I certainly can take a month's delay but I'm concerned about slippage into 2011.
Wilson Grooms
3248. Silvertip
@Free: If your wife is a Somewhere in Time fan, and you want to give her an Anniversary gift sometime that will make you very popular for a nice long time, take her for a vacation to Mackinac Island and stay at the Grand Hotel. The whole setting is there: People run around finding the tree that the heroine is standing under in their favorite scene, and so forth. Not my thing, but hey.

Got another one: In the first "Back to the Future", who invented Rock and Roll?

At least those examples are clever storytelling. The finale to Star Trek: Voyager was execrable.

S

p.s. Fiddler, Grijze, etc.: can a third-generation Dutch-American join the club?
Alice A
3249. Wetlandernw
Grijze Vos @3239 & 3240 - I'm confused. Sometimes you seem to say that Mat & Aviendha were killed by lightning, and other times you imply balefire. They were never ever hit with balefire. They were struck by Rahvin's lightning, and later were found alive because when Rahvin was balefired, the lightning "never happened". The balefire effects on the palace are still there, because balefiring Rahvin does not remove the balefire either he or Rand used before entering TAR. It's awkward to describe, but balefire can't be undone by balefiring the balefirer. Any other weave, or any other action at all, can be undone by balefiring the doer of that action. Balefire is different; it can't be undone. (See Freelancer's explanation @3246.)

(Edit - too much balefire in the second sentence.)
Tess Laird
3250. thewindrose
RobMRobM - I understand what you are saying, and I want the next book as soon as possible too. But I want it to sparkle and shine like tGS - so I will wait patiently and plague all of you with inane humor(or try to;)
Brandon has said that ToM will have a lot more plot threads to follow - and he has heard from several about working on Mat more.

So, we have Leigh back on Monday, Yeah!! And a post that will load much faster. I wonder what they will do with this one? Keep it open? I have seen that other posters have gone back to older threads and have posted tGS stuff there. Maybe instead of going back, we can have some theme threads(like Verin) and review all that she has done up to tGS and how her revelation has changed what was thought. (Pretty please Leigh and TOR!)
T C
3251. Freelancer
RobMRobM,

Yes, he was planning for October next year, and in fact has said that there's an artificial deadline for release something like the week before Thanksgiving, or else it has to wait until well after the holidays. Books released at that time of year usually don't fare as well. But as the 13th book of this saga, I don't think it makes the slightest difference at all when it's released as far as sales volume is concerned. Those who will buy it, will buy it any time of year, and those who aren't prepared to buy it probably wouldn't buy it at all. You just don't pull someone into a story of this scope by the penultimate volume. Heck, maybe even JamesEdJones will buy it.


Silvertip,

Yes, a similar thing in a way, where Marvin calls cousin Chuck to tell him about this new sound, which is actually Chuck's own as yet undiscovered sound delivered back in time to him via Marty. But there's a difference. If Marty hadn't gone back in time, Chuck would probably still have discovered that sound. In "Somewhere in Time", that pocketwatch cannot exist, because it has no origin. She gives it to him at the beginning of the movie; when he goes back in time, he gives it to her, just before he discoveres a 1979 penny in his watch pocket. So, the watch could never have been purchased, could never have been manufactured. It's a temporal mistake in the story.


::waves at Wetlandernw:: Hey there, Lady Guru. I was beginning to wonder if we would need to send subwoofer's pups out on a search.


thewindrose

WoT Theme threads, now? Soon this won't be TOR.com, but WOT.com. I mean, check out the navigation pane on the right, it's already more than half WoT. Not that it's a bad idea, you're right. I'm not sure that poor Pablo wants any more WoT invading the site, though. And I almost feel bad for Leigh. Whatever she decides to write about the opening of ACoS, that post is going to get HAMMERED by everyone who has quit commenting upon, or even looking at, this behemoth.
Jay Dauro
3252. J.Dauro
Freelancer @3251

This temporal loop concept (where did the watch come from?) has been included in many stories.

For my favorite, see Heinlein's "—All You Zombies—", probably the ultimate temporal loop.
john massey
3253. subwoofer
For those who have already begun to twitch, may I suggest some of this.

For all the quitters out there- nyah:P Winners never quit and quitters are hung by their ankles and drown as a symbol... or words to that effect.

Gotta do some painting soon here. Am rereading TGS again just for recollection purposes. Upon first blush Mat was a tough read, now it seems better. I am wanting the Aiel to find their voice again though. For several books the characters really jumped off the page, now, not so much.

Caddy is still as annoying as always, and Eggy has come about, she is written much older than her years. I am interested to see where Perrin and Faile fall into the mix as far as their interactions with each other. Rand, well, needs to have a true heart to heart with Pops, this time without leaping to misinformed conclusions. And Hurin, well, he is as loyal as the day is long and has the heart of a banner-man.

Woof™.
Barry T
3254. blindillusion
Subwoofer

Your comment RE: Hurin

::nods::

Kid's gonna be a Hero of the Horn one day. The Pattern is in need of a man with a good nose.
Alice A
3255. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @3251 - Hey, yourself! ::waves:: Yeah, I'm starting to feel like a stranger here. ;) We were pretty much out of touch from last Wednesday through Monday night, and it's taken a while to catch up. (Went to a nephew's wedding in Montana, and my dad only has dial-up. Non-starter for this beastie.) And of course, every time I see a question I'd like to answer, seven or eight people have answered it before I get close to a chance. We've got some serious guru-training going on here! Well done, folks.

Had to laugh at this one: And I almost feel bad for Leigh. Whatever she decides to write about the opening of ACoS, that post is going to get HAMMERED by everyone who has quit commenting upon, or even looking at, this behemoth. When that bandwagon pops up, there'll be a crowd waiting to get on it for sure! Have to say it will be nice to get to a post that responds in a second or two instead of 30 or 40. And it really will be fun to see what effect the revelations of TGS have on those discussions.

On a loosely related subject, wow! on all the new arrivals! Congratulations to Steelblaidd - she's beautiful! (hope you get some sleep in a few weeks); MasterAlThor (get ready: squeeze 'em up, sugar 'em up, send 'em home...); subwoofer - she's a right pretty little thing! (now you'll seriously get more exercise than you know what to do with!). Very after-the-fact in my well-wishes, but sincere nonetheless. Hope all are doing well.

I started Eye of the World again this afternoon, but I may have to rethink. I just got my husband started on the series, but if he decides my obsession is more than enough for one family, he might quit. Maybe I'll figure out a way to create a book jacket that will disguise what I'm reading... ;)

And in looking for something else, I ran across the scene with Rand and Nynaeve, when she removes the compulsion from that kid and the aftereffects. ("A Conversation with the Dragon") Wow. BWS can write "heart-wrenching" with the best of them, can't he? *sigh*

Hope I'm not incoherent tonight; if I am, blame the Vicodin... I'm still looking things up, so may post more later.

P.S. Freelancer, thanks again for asking my question about a middle initial. I feel so much better writing BWS. And I notice many others seem to feel relieved by the knowledge as well. :)
Rob Munnelly
3256. RobMRobM
Free and Wind - understood that we want Brandon to do a totally excellent job ... but I want him to do so and finish NOW.

If we really want to push for 4,000, maybe we should wind up this thread with the character survey we did back a few books ago - where we rate the main characters on a 1 to 5 scale -- with one being DIAF and 5 being as hot sh*t in a cup -- and one of our numerologists totals up the results and has fun with the anomalies. Given that the re-read group has probably doubled since we did this initially and that some characters may be trending upwards or downwards based on TGS, this might be a fun way to kill a day or two.

Do you agree? Copy the list below and have at it. I'll do my own after this gets rolling. I would do the following characters to keep it at manageable size:

Rand
Mat
Perrin
Egwene
Nyneave
Thom
Faile
Fortuona
Cadsuane
Berelain
Aviendha
Min
Lan
Bashere
Elayne
Logain
craig thrift
3257. gagecreedlives
For the Survey

Rand 4
Mat 5
Perrin 4
Egwene 4
Nyneave 4
Thom 5
Faile 3
Fortuona 3
Cadsuane 3
Berelain 3
Aviendha 3
Min 4
Lan 5
Bashere 5
Elayne 2
Logain 4
Barry T
3258. blindillusion
So Wetlandernw who is in the guru-training program? Wonder if I might be eligible for a shiny, new, official WOT Guru Certificate.
~
Hmm, so, after this thread, I wonder what the stats birgit posted here would look like?
~
RomM: I suppose I missed that last survey. What is DIAF?
Alice A
3260. Wetlandernw
blindillusion @3258 who is in the guru-training program? You, for one. Can't give a list of names off the top of my head, but I've noticed several folks stepping in to do the research and come up with the answers. Some have been around for a while, and some are pretty new to the scene; in both cases, I say "Well done!" to you all.
craig thrift
3261. gagecreedlives
blindillusion

you have 2 options. Died in a fire or died in a fart. Give you one guess which one is my personal favourite
Rob Munnelly
3262. RobMRobM
I'm an easy grader

Rand 4 (too emo for a perfect score)
Mat 4 (lost points for writing down script)
Perrin 3 (better go up in ToM)
Egwene 4/5 (don't get cocky)
Nyneave 5 (MoA throughout)
Thom 4
Faile 4 (I like her)
Fortuona 4 (I like her too)
Cadsuane 3 (lucky to get this high)
Berelain 3
Aviendha 4 (took too long to figure it out)
Min 4
Lan 5
Bashere 5
Elayne 3/4 (expecting her to go up in ToM)
Logain 5
Ron Garrison
3263. Man-0-Manetheran
Hi all. Had to quit looking at this thread from work as it was freezing up the weenie Dell. Thank the Light that Leigh will start up ACOS on Monday. I started my re-read so I could actually read along. The Prologue goes from Elaida right into Sevanna, so expect lots of headdesking! It's so nice to see her wax poetic on how she alone will save the world and be able to say: "Suffa is a good damane."

BTW - I've decided I will pronounce Suffa as a clipped "suffer."
Barry T
3264. blindillusion
Survey

Rand 5 (He might be Emo, but still badass)
Mat 5+ (7 Kinds of Badass)
Perrin 3
Egwene 5 (She made tGS)
Nyneave 5 (Only Aes Sedai with Rand's back)
Thom 5 (One of the coolest characters)
Faile 3
Fortuona 4 (Could either fall to 3 or climb to 5)
Cadsuane 1- (Where's the stake?)
Berelain 2 (Eh)
Aviendha 4 (Should be great in ToM)
Min 5 (Said the smartest thing ever RE: Rand)
Lan 5 (Eyes of Death)
Bashere 4 (Eh)
Elayne 4 (Absence and all that)
Logain 5 (Logain + Taim / Battle for the Black Tower = Taim goes boom)

If it's alright, I'd like to add another name:

Moiraine 5++ (When she shows back up she's going to make hot sh*t in a cup look cold)

Wetlandernw: Awesome
Ron Garrison
3265. Man-0-Manetheran
re. Character Survey:

How did Verin not make the cut? 5 for sure!

Rand 5
Mat 5
Perrin 5
Egwene 5
Nyneave 5
Thom 4
Faile 1
Fortuona 2
Cadsuane 3
Berelain 1
Aviendha 4
Min 4
Lan 5
Bashere 3
Elayne 4
Logain 4
AND Moiraine 5
Wilson Grooms
3266. alreadymadwithRandsissues
Man-o-Manetheran @3263
Yup.... Suffa is just like "suffer" with the end slanged. As in gangstah. On another note, is Suffa RJ's idea or BWS?

Re: Rand's issues.
Verin was right. It wasn't just the taint on Saidin it was also the amount of stress on Rand's shoulders. He literally carried the fate of the world in his hands and he had accepted that the burden was his and his alone. And what thanks does he get? Nobles continually second guessing him. Aes Sedai bullying their way around and messing up his plans. His own friends untrusting of his abilities and/or commitment.
That said, when LTT's memories started resurfacing, he literally freaked out. His belief was that the memories would take him over. That that was how he would go mad. His own personality set aside in favor of the Dragon, whom he believed to have died mad. When he made observations thru the benefit of LTT's own vastly more experienced worldview he recognized the difference between his experience and LTT's. This is when he started hearing the voice. When he remembers LTT's grief at slaying his kin, he hears LTT moaning and weeping. When he seizes Saidin, he feels LTT's vastly more familiar and instinctive feel to using the One Power and knows it is different from his experience, he feels LTT trying to take control of Saidin. As time progressed and he became more preoccupied with getting the dieing part over with, "LTT" became a receptacle not only for LTT's memories and impressions, but also of the parts of himself that he did not want. The caring, sympathetic side of himself.
Finally came the epiphany. He is the Dragon Reborn. Those parts of him he had conveniently labeled as LTT, those were parts of him. He was LTT's second chance. They had never been two persons.
Ron Garrison
3267. Man-0-Manetheran
Beautiful, amwR! It's great to go back and read the opening of TEotW again. It all becomes so clear.
Wilson Grooms
3268. Planeswalker
For the survey...

Rand 4 (agree, too emo to be 5.)
Mat 5 (he is who he is!)
Perrin 4 (should've been lower if it weren't for the beard!)
Egwene 4 (2 pre-tGS.)
Nyneave 4 (3 pre-Lan/Nyn.)
Thom 5 (gotta love the Bard. where's Loial?!)
Faile 4 (well, she likes the beard!)
Fortuona 3 dunno. hard to rate.)
Cadsuane 2 (Tam said it best.)
Berelain 4 (you gotta love her! she's got balls!)
Aviendha 3 (drama queen.)
Min 5 (she's always there. always.)
Lan 5 (can't hate the guy. just too cool.)
Bashere 5 (can handle rand's emo-ness.)
Elayne 3 (spoiled brat.)
Logain 3 (dunno. another one hard to rate.)
Moiraine 5 (never a bully. understands the best things to do.)
Verin 4 (very sneaky. sneaky. sneaky.)
Henry Loose
3269. schrodinger
wow. I go away for a few days to knock together some 4 meter cubes and you guys knock out another 100 posts. So much amazingness going on right now. First, I walk into calculus, and find my professor reading a well worn copy of TDR, and after a great discussion of WoT, I may have a higher grade ::crosses fingers:: (although not likely).

My WoT risk board is coming along slowly (hoping for christmas test run with amigos)

Rand 5 (was a 4, but laughter saves it)
Mat 5 (if perfection was human, it would be this)
Perrin 4 (lots of potential for TAR and TG)
Egwene 5 (MOA after MOA)
Nyneave 5 (woot! a badass in the making, spend enough time with Lan and anyone becomes a badass)
Thom 5 (craftiest guy around, his political maneuvering is almost as enjoyable as Mat's)
Faile 3 (never really hated her, just wished for a quicker rescue, has risen from a 2 in KoD)
Fortuona 4/5 (teetering on the brink, alliance w/Rand will clench 5)
Cadsuane 2 (what can I say, after Moiraine, everyone looks bad)
Berelain 2 (what's the point?)
Aviendha 5 (we got some badass moments coming!)
Min 5 (when everyone else is stupid, she's always sane)
Lan 5 (quintessential badass)
Bashere 2 (what's the point?)
Elayne 4 (only because of association with Kin and windfinders)
Logain 5 (always one of my favorites, ever since book one, and Min's later viewings... MoBA coming up)
Moiraine 5 (do I need to say it?)
Verin 5 (again, do I need to say it?)
Loial 5 (as his name states... hope we can hear his speech to the stump)
Thomas Keith
3270. insectoid
This is my 50th comment on this thread! Tor.com could go boom...

RobM² @3241: Nov. 2010 sounds good to me. Maybe it'll get bumped up a week like TGS did. Ya never know.

Balefire: makes perfect sense to me. Not! ;)

Free @3251: Re: WoT.com...That gave me an image of you Gurus invading the Fandom panel at JordanCon 2010! Or perhaps you could start your own panel. I might be there. Maybe.

RobM² @3256:

Rand: 4.5 (we'll see)
Mat: 5
Perrin: 4
Egwene: 5
Nynaeve: 5
Thom: 4
Faile: 3
Fortuona: 3
Cadsuane: 4
Berelain: 2
Aviendha: 4
Min: 3
Lan: 5
Bashere: 3
Elayne: 4
Logain: 4
Moiraine: 5+
Verin: 5

Wetlander @3260: What are the requirements to be in the program? Is there a class? :)

Schrodinger @3269: Or, you may be able to recruit him/her into the ranks of the WoT Gurus.
Henry Loose
3271. schrodinger
@insectoid

I think the title of the class is The Wheel of Time; and the instructor is called Robert Jordan (Teaching Assistant to Mr. Jordan is Brandon Sanderson)

(only a little bit of sarcasm ;-)... night all)
Wilson Grooms
3272. whettingstone
Some has started to reread the entire series just like me and a lot of stuff is coming clear.

I constantly get these "Wow, was he/she/it introduced that early?".

For example I just finished TDR and when Mat fights his way down to the dungeons he meets one of the high lords and proceeds to beat the crap out of him after a lengthy fight. Who was the high lord if not Darlin.

That made me go "WTH? Did we hear about him this early?".

Also, re balefire again.
I actually don't have a large problem with balefire. But then again, I've spent a lot of time thinking of time paradoxes and with those you basically have to just accept otherwise you'll go mad.
Cheryl
3273. First Selector
Yay a survey. here I go ...

Rand 4
Mat 5 (the foray into script writing aside)
Perrin 4 (he's been MoA at times)
Egwene 5 (has steadily improved to pure MoA)
Nynaeve 4
Thom 5
Faile 3 (never hated her. hmm maybe should be 4 after Masema's coup de grace)
Fortuona 4
Cadsuane 3
Berelain 2
Aviendha 4
Min 4
Lan 5 (because he so badass)
Bashere 4
Elayne 4
Logain 4

Edit: forgot two of my favs
Moiraine 5
Verin 5
Wilson Grooms
3274. lowlandr
After leeching for months on the re-read, I though it was time to lose my postfobia and share some thoughts and questions with you.

For starters I would like to say that I think BWS did a very good job of writing tGS. He caught the ‘WoT-spirit’ for me, and I can’t wait till ToM. Secondly I’ll just pop in here with the threats. Unfortunately I don’t have the time to go into all the subjects which have been addressed in this post (though I’m tempted).. I’ve got a house to rebuild J

@3246 Freelancer & @3249 Wedlandernw
(balefire discussion)
Although the question asked at the end of this section, isn’t primarily focused on balefire itself, it does give me a nice introduction to clarify my question a bit.
We all know that balefire ‘burns back’ certain threads, depending on who or what is hit and the strength used. With the burning of threads a (tiny) bit if the pattern is undone.
BWS also declared that the TP ‘rips’ through the pattern each time it is used.
This leads me to the following questions. Is an action done with the TP directly or indirectly a part of the pattern or does it stand apart? What would happen when someone using the TP getting balefired? (e.g. person A TP’s lighting to kill B. C then balefires A (using the OP with sufficient power). Would B live again?)

@all
A second thing which had me wondering for a while (and still is), is about our beloved scoundrel and his relationship with the Finns…
When Mat visited the Eelfinn in Rhuidean he gets granted 3 wishes, one of which was to fill the holes in his memory. The Eelfinn granted this wish by filling the holes with military knowledge and the knowledge and proficiency with the Ashandarei.
Why? Why did the Eelfinn choose to fill the holes in his memory with those two aspects? The Eelfinn chose it very specifically, but what was their motivation? Why not random stuff, or make him the best cook in Randland?
Is it his ta’vereness, to get what he needed? Are they motivated in stopping the DO from winning TG? Or are they just balancing the scale a bit, to see what happens/makes TG a bit more interesting?
john massey
3275. subwoofer
@Wet- thanks for the shout out, you have no idea. Dog woke me up this morning for our morning run(thank God I was Infantry) and we booted 'er. Stumbled out and got going. I checked my watch to judge when we reach our half way point of 1/2 hour and it was 4:45?!! Usually we get up at 5 and go for it. Totally had me discombobulated. ##%#@ fluffy dog!

For the survey:

Black, no cream or sugar.
Over hard, not runny.
Whole wheat, not white bread.

Rand 3- may get higher, lets see if he gets where he's going.

Mat- 4- lad has potential
Perrin-3- has to learn to Woof™.
Egwene-3- likes Gawyn- Gah!
Nyneave-4- sniff
Thom-4- yay for one of the better written secondary characters.
Faile-2- well...
Fortuona-3- lost a point for the name.
Cadsuane-Phaw!
Berelain-4 Da#n Girl!
Aviendha-4- points for being Aiel
Min-3- points for reading
Lan-5- there can be only one!
Bashere-4- yay
Elayne-1- grumble...
Logain-3- his time will come.
Rhuarc-4- BwS has to bring the Aiel back.
Gawyn- 1- put in my van and push off a cliff.
Siuan-4- well, she has learned how to duck. Fish guts!

Fatal Error stuff starting to happen on Firefox. Le Sigh!

Woof™.
Rob Munnelly
3276. RobMRobM
Wet and others. I should have added Verin to the survey - that was an oversight. However, like Moiraine and Tam and Gareth, whom I deliberately chose not to add to the chart, good bet that all will get 5s so what's the point.

In retrospect, I should have added Gawyn, if only for entertainment value. Ditto re Siuan.

Gawyn - 3 (mostly for swordsmanship and increasing self-awareness; everything else is MoS)

Siuan - 4 (easily could have been a 5 but I don't want to be too easy).
Rob Munnelly
3277. RobMRobM
Lowlandr - welcome. Won't touch the balefire point but re the second, my supposition is they worked with the memories the Finns possessed. Only seasoned warriors and adventurers would have the guts to go into the Tower of Ghenjie to risk their lives to get answers or favors -- probably not too many cooks. LOL.

Great question though. Rob
Kurt Sickinger
3278. sizzlerspack33
Ahhh a survey *rubs hands together*

Rand 4- back on the right path, but still a "wool-head"

Mat 5 - just consistently Awesome
Perrin-3- much like a roller coaster... up,down
Egwene-4.5- TGS made her almost perfect (still don't like herideas for Rand)
Nyneave-4- our baby's all growns up!!
Thom-4- love him, but hasn't been good for a while. Women!?!?
Faile-2- lots of room for improvement
Fortuona-3- just scratching the surface. anticipating reunion with hubby!
Cadsuane-tired of her
Berelain-4 Sneaky good all along
Aviendha-3.5 - ehh waiting for more
Min-4- -1 for not trying hard enough w/ Rand
Lan-5- MoA everytime on "screen"
Bashere-2.5- started well...now????
Elayne-2- never seems as naturally "super" as everyone else
Logain-3- too high for now.has Verinesque potential
Rhuarc-3.5- another strong starter how does he finish?
Gawyn 1-only good thing was him getting Pwnd by Mat
Siuan-4- sooo smart, yet so dumb sometimes
Leslie Annis
3279. Lannis
Survey:

Rand - 5 (got seriously scared for his psyche... excellently done!)
Mat - 4 (needs to sort out this "married thing" and will be MOA again)
Perrin - 3 (get your shit together, P!)
Egwene - 5 (her plot arc was just too cool!)
Nyneave - 5 (a gutsy girl who's coming into her own)
Thom - 4 (regaining MOA status)
Faile - 4 (points for killing Masema)
Fortuona - 5 (horrible name change but I like her)
Cadsuane - 4 (she's dropped for me: maybe she's becoming too human?)
Berelain - 3
Aviendha - 4 (agree with RobM... I figured out her "punishments" right away and was disappointed she wasn't bright enough to do so herself...)
Min - 3 (lost points for being quiet, even though I understood why--I like me a snappy Min)
Lan - 5
Bashere - 4
Elayne - 2 (getting annoyed with wonky pregnancy references)
Logain - 5 (I really want Logain to be a force to be reckoned with! Give him more power! Take down Taim!)
Verin - 5+ (The Light bless her sneaky sneaky little heart!)
Moiraine - 5 (the anticipation is killing me!)


lowlandr @ 3274: Welcome aboard! :)



Hmm... haven't had any error messages yet, but I'm running Firefox and high speed cable internet... though the load times're getting longer for me (20-30s). MONDAY! :)


Oh, and if anyone's looking for gift ideas for small children, Viking Dad has some ideas...


EDIT: grammar and readability... GAH!

EDIT (again): Wow... in this year I'd be 1300 years old... or, you know... dead.
Tess Laird
3280. thewindrose
For the survey:This may seem almost like someone elses:)

Black, no cream or sugar. Sounds like kaf(I like mine with lots o' cream and sugar)
Over hard, not runny.
Whole wheat, not white bread.

Rand 3- may get higher, lets see if he gets where he's going.
Mat- 4- lad has potential
Perrin-3- has to learn to Woof™.
Egwene-4- likes Gawyn- Gah!(Actually she disses him;))
Nyneave-4- sniff
Thom-4- yay for one of the better written secondary characters.
Faile-2- well...(Moves up one for Mesema)
Fortuona-3- lost a point for the name.
Cadsuane-Phaw!(1)
Berelain-4 Da#n Girl!
Aviendha-4- points for being Aiel
Min-4- points for reading(Multiple points for reading, I am expecting a foray into the higher mathematics-chaos, fractals, and dynamics- soon.)
Lan-5- there can be only one!
Bashere-4- yay
Elayne-4- grumble...(come on sub, she is preggers, kind of like someone you are acquainted with:)
Logain-3- his time will come.
Rhuarc-4- BwS has to bring the Aiel back.
Gawyn- 1- put in my van and push off a cliff.
Siuan-4- well, she has learned how to duck. Fish guts!

Thanks Sub - pretty much on the same page. You know, we had a lab named Loki once - totality lived up to that!

And RobmRobM - you are a softy.
Michael
3281. budgemano
Hi all.

Seeing as how there are over 3000 (!) comments already and no way I am reading through all of that, has there been any mention of when Leigh might re-start this blog? Of course I want to give her all the time she needs to deal with all the stuff in her life, but I am getting antsy over here.
Michael
3282. budgemano
Haha nevermind, started reading up from my comment and there it is on 3263. Awesome!
Rob Munnelly
3283. RobMRobM
Wind - I am in full accord with the first part of your survey (drinking black coffee as we speak) although I might go for pumpernickel instead of whole wheat. R
Wilson Grooms
3284. Lowlandr
@3277 RobMRobM

thank you for the welcome!!

A quick reply.
The core of my 'balefire' question is the relationship between the TP and the pattern, not the 'balefire paradox'. In the context of my question I would consider balefire as a 'checking mechanism'.

Ok... about the finns.

There are three (known) entrances to the world of the finns. First the ter'angreal in Tear to the Aelfinn specificly, second the ter'angreal in Rhuidean to the Eelfinn and the Tower of Ghenjie (ToG). Conclusion from this could be that both finns share one world, but don't mix (appearences, different entrances).
The ter'angreal in Tear comes from Mayene, where the rulers used it to stay out of the hands of Tear. Considering the livespan of a Randlander and the context of the world I will asume that a generation is 25 years. This makes 4 generations per 100 years, thus 4 visits per century. I don't know (books not at hand, but see the explanation by Moiraine, beginning tSR) if the ter'angreal was exclusively used by the king/queen or by more highranking nobels, but I consider it save to asume that not too many people have used the ter'angreal. Were all these users warlords/general? I don't know, but the memories Mat has are very diverse. If the rulers of Mayene are in Mat's head, wouldn't it contain a lot of seabattles? also the last 300 years it has been collecting dust in the 'all the crap that might be connected to the power'-room

the second ter'angreal to the Eelfinn has been located since the Breaking in Rhuidean. As far as we know this ter'angreal hasn't been used since then.

The only one we know how to enter the ToG is Brigit. She has this knowledge because she was ripped for TAR, and not reborn. Knowledge about the ToG is very rare, if not lost, was it not for Brigit. The chance of someone entering the world of the Finn via this way is very very slim.

This leads me to the question, how did the Eelfinn get their hands (paws??) on the memories from a whole bunch of people (most from after the breaking) in the head of Mat? Mat memories go from before the Breaking till about 1000 years before the storyline (IIRC).

The finns didn't have access to contact to humans (see arguments above). The Aelfinn had contact with humans, but that would imply that the memories would had some (larger) degree of seabattles. So far we haven't seen any of those (Mat remembers dancing with one of the Seafolk, and getting (nearly) killed by one; this is the most 'sea' memories we've seen)

So how did the Eelfinn get the memories?
1. Did they get it from the Aelfinn (which would prove that the races having contact (and a good relationship)). I don't consider it likely, but it is the best explaination I can come up with. On a side note: the Aelfinn did sent Mat as a general to Rhuidean ("Go to Rhuidean, son of battles")
2. Is there an entrance to the Eelfinn we don't know about? I consider this unlikely because considering all the memories, it had to be well known and well accessable.
3. is it in some way attached to ta'verenness? The memories which he had suggest at least people who could make things happen/influenced a lot of people around them. The Eelfinn made a selection and put the warcraft in Mat's head.
4. This is the 'I have no freaking clue option'. Please feel free to enter your opinions/findings.

Well with is small introduction I come back to your answer, RobM.
It is a very likely answer, though I'm temped to say it is only a part of the answer. I'm pretty sure that the Eelfinn made a selection in the persons whos' memories they put in Mat's head (a lot of Mayene visits to the Eelfinn, no memories concerning them or sea).

conclusion: I think that the Finns don't want the DO to win TG, else no Wheel and no alternative world, thus no Finns. so they tried to help out.


Well.. I'm glad I did a 'quick reply' :s... Imagine a long one :)
Wilson Grooms
3285. dannielle from Australia
Rand 4 – Who would be him? Not I! He's doing his best under very trying circumstances.
Mat 5 – Got to love him! Not nessassarily marry him though.
Perrin 3 – I think he's going to grow on me now Fail's all sorted. I hope so.
Egwene 4 – Again. She's where she's supposed to be, doing a remarkable job.
Nyneave 4 – I'd want her on my team. For anything. Her loyalty is undisputable.
Thom 4 - I'm still waiting for the “Tom and Moiraine” story.
Fail 3 – Her and Perrin just bug me I'm afraid. Again thinking their story will suit me better next book.
Fortuona 4 – I think if she wasn't seanchan she would of rocked.
Cadsuane 2 – I question her Oaths
Berelain 2 – Hussy
Aviendha 5 – She will make a fine Wiseone
Min 4 – Just cause her “special thing” is being Real.
Lan 4 – He's just COOL
Bashere 3 – Rand needed someone like him
Elayne 3 – Just have the babies already!
Logain 4 – He has something to add
Taim 1 – My money is on him as Demandred

And that's my view on things.

Hi Wilson

Dannielle
Australia
Jack Diamond
3286. violetdancer
One last comment before I head off for the weekend and then back to the reread on Monday. I know it's been beaten to death, but to me the relationship between Egwene and Gawyn reeks of Lanfear's meddling.

Whenever Lanfear got into that You're-Mine-Lews-Therin mode, what come to my mind is Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. She's completely off the deep end. For someone who is so comfortable with walking the Dream, I can't believe she wouldn't do a little proactive suggesting (Not Compulsion) to deter Egwene from mooning over Rand.

Think about how Nynaeve made herself get that bad taste every time she lied. It was a T'A'R suggestion to herself. And we know that Lanfear was spying on Egwene's dreams. Lanfear possibly made suggestions to Gawyn as well (that whole rescue Egwene from Rand scenario).

Anyway, that's my two cents. I don't believe Lanfear would chance Rand having feelings for anyone but Lanfear.
Wilson Grooms
3287. dannielle from australia
Sorry for adding Taim but i felt it needed to be put out there

wonderful job leigh

dannielle
Jack Diamond
3288. violetdancer
One addition to my post at 3286:

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Lanfear did some suggesting to Berelain about Perrin. Lanfear did use Berelain to carry a message to Rand and Moiraine in the Stone, and I think that was after Berelain tried to seduce Rand.
Matthew Smith
3289. blocksmith
Wetlandernw@3249

Yes, the number of times you type balefire/s/d in a post about balefire makes you want to balefire your post. Balefire.

RobmRobm@3257

Wow...Die in a fire...that's strong hate. I prefer Oxygen Thief...not quite as painful.

M-O-M@3262

Move to Massachusetts...we will teach you to say Suffa, Haavaad, and Paak properly.

Schrodinger@3269

Good luck with calc...I sympathize with the professor thing. My 101 prof actually threw chalk at me for asking a question about something "he" hadn't taught us yet. He gets a 1.

Subwoofer@3275

Black, Over-Easy, Wheat.

And the survey...

Rand 5 (badass even with one hand)
Mat 5 (he speaks for himself)
Perrin 4 (lacks something...a certain je ne sais qua)
Egwene 5 (KOD and TGS put her over the top)
Nyneave 4 (even with defeating Moggy)
Thom 5 (almost always the right place, right time)
Faile 2 (sorry, not a fan)
Fortuona 3 (jury still out)
Cadsuane 3 (annoying but occasionally impressive)
Berelain 3 (same)
Aviendha 5 (I have a thing for algode)
Min 5 (most "human" character for me)
Lan 5 (MOA)
Bashere 4 (tough one)
Elayne 4 (not quite to Min Avi level, but there is still time)
Logain 3 (not enough screen time yet)
Verin 5 (her big scene answered so many questions)
Gawyn 3 (annoying but room for improvement)
Siuan 5 (has any other character, besides Rand gone through so much and still is on their game?)
D.I. Rock
3290. FeatherDancer
Rand 5 -struggled with a ton of crap & made it
Mat 5 -just absolutely loved him since day one
Perrin 3 -negs & positives put me neutral on him
Egwene 4.5 -pre TGS her attitude annoyed me
Nyneave 4 -neg points for gratuitious braid pulling
Thom 4.5 -Ultimate Game Lord, whimps to Elayne
Faile 1 -I wana skip pages when I see her name
Fortuona 2 -neg points for her love of leashing
Cadsuane 1.5 -Does not get she ain't the boss
Berelain 3 -works hard for her peeps of Mayane
Aviendha 2 -way too much drama + trama for me)
Min 5 -big reason Rand's soul has stayed intact
Lan 5 -Super cool and he makes a Hadori look good
Bashere 4 -points for horsemanship + saddle tricks
Elayne 2 -just never liked her much, too spoiled
Logain 3 -cause I'm neutral on him
R B
3291. MasterAlThor
Alright, earlier I said that I was back. And then I disappear like a Fade. Well, I have been kinda busy catching up with all the stuff I was into before I got sick.

Putting my house and family back together has taken a lot more time than I thought.

First off welcome all you new guys. First time posters are the new blood that we need. We wish that you guys would have come in sooner but we are definitely glad that you are here now. Stick around.

Second, thank you all for the well wishes and congrats to my family. We sincerely appreciate it.

Third, M-o-M.
I like your Book 4 theory. I will look to see if it is mentioned in some other books.

Fourth, survey time

Coffee: Cream and sugar
Eggs: Hate em, unless it's an omlete with lots of meat, cheese, onions and salsa.
Bread: Either

Rand 4
Mat 3 Just not enough of him
Perrin 2 He might get better
Egwene 5 MOA
Nyneave 3 I thought she went backward
Thom 3 Not enough, he seemed to mope
Faile 2 The less of her the better
Fortuona Who? I see only Tuon
Cadsuane 2 Ha! Humble pie don't taste so good
Berelain 2 Crazy hot chick, but selfish and crazy
Aviendha 4 Hot redhead, can fight and can think what more could you want.
Min 3 She bugs me don't know why
Lan 5 He can take it, he's a MAN
Bashere 3 Smart, competent general.
Elayne 3 Needs to do something to elevate her
Logain 3 Cleanse the Tower, and you get a 5
Verin 5 MOA. who wants to argue?
Bill Reamy
3292. BillinHI
For the survey:

Rand - 4 (will be a 5 at the ultimate end)
Mat - 5 (despite his early problems, he really _gets_ it)
Perrin - 3 (don't think he gets it yet, but hope that will change in the last 2 books)
Egwene - 4 (not perfect, but getting there: still thinks AS know better than anyone)
Nyneave - 5 (real pain early on, but has had the most impressive character growth)
Thom - 5 (great game player, even better friend)
Faile - 3 (improved over the last 2 books, but has a ways to go)
Fortuona - 3 (too many misconceptions about everything not Seanchan)
Cadsuane - 3 (might have the right idea(s) but implementation is dreadful)
Berelain - 3 (has her good moments, but not enough IMHO)
Aviendha - 5 (as other Aiel, doesn't get wetlanders, but still MoA)
Min - 5 (not a Super Girl but keeps going and does an excellent job with Rand)
Lan - 5 (beyond Awesome!)
Bashere - 5 (if he's even close to a Darkfriend, I will be seriously pissed!!)
Elayne - 3 (should improve over the last 2 books but has had too many D'OH moments)
Logain - 4 (I expect him to become a 5 after cleaning up the BT)
Moiraine - 5+ (the ONLY Aes Sedai to get Rand and what needs to be done)
Loial - 5++ (one of the very few characters with no down-side)
Verin - 5 (her soul is definitely pure white)
Sydo Zandstra
3293. Fiddler
@Grijze Vos about Rahvin using BF/Lightning on Mat/Asmodean/Aviendha:

From you spelling Mat's name as Mart, I guess you read the Dutch translations. For the record, I'm Dutch myself, but I have only read WoT in English.

It could be possible that the Dutch translation made it less clear what caused Mat's, Asmodean's and Aviendha's death there. I'd have to check the Dutch copy of FoH that I bought for my mother. That could be causing the misunderstanding here.

The English version is clear on it though.


@Bouke: I work in A'dam. ;)

@Silvertip: why not? :)
Barry T
3294. blindillusion
Lowlandr@3284

To help you with your question about Mat and the 'Finns, I give you these from Mr Jordan.

Hope it helps.

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview [Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview] that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

And
Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?
RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring. [See TOR Questions above - RJ clarified that most of Mat's memory donors entered 'Finnland through the Tower of Ghenjei. - Terez]


Got these from here which stems from here.
Sam Mickel
3295. Samadai
Dannielle from Australia @3287 AND 3285,

Robert Jordan has stated many times that Taim is not Demandred, nor was he ever intended to be.

Edit for; when I read that it sounded like an ass wrote it. it was only intended to be informational, not demeaning.
Wilson Grooms
3296. alreadymadwithsurveys
lowlandr @ 3274

See a great discussion on Mat's memories on the WoT FAQ.

dannielle from Australia @ 3275

I shouldn't even bother, but Taim is not Demandred.

Also, I find it highly ironic (read obnoxious) that people complain about the length of this thread, then participate in something as frivolous as rating the characters.
Tess Laird
3297. thewindrose
I find it illuminating that people still browse and comment with the long load and refresh times. Read: Don't be a sour puss:) I am sure on Monday we will all be back to good little commenters. This happens when we have been left alone to long:)

And I am getting the fatal error *whistles*
Wilson Grooms
3298. Silvertip
@Violetdancer:

Could be ... but I suspect that if Lanfear had thought of Egwene as a serious rival, she would simply have murdered her rather than doing something subtle like finding her another partner. (Although: Remember her actions at the very end of TGH).

S
Leslie Annis
3299. Lannis
@ thewindrose: your comment made me smile. We'll have lots of (ahem) participation once Monday's post hits the interwebs...

@ Everyone: Have a cookie and be glad that the down time has given us sufficient time to teach Elaiffa/Suffaida how to properly clean the bunker... she's much better at keeping up a clean place instead of starting from a mess... though with the amount of movies now stocked there, I won't suggest balefiring it next time: it'd be too much to replace...

::peruses the shelf:: Hrmmm... where did our copy of Star Wars go...? I think Suffa's been a bad bad damane...
Wilson Grooms
3300. alreadymadwithsuffaida
I think I heard Suffa muttering about there being no women on the Jedi Council...
Tess Laird
3301. thewindrose
I think Suffa was just mad because Depa Billaba or Adi Gallia didn't want to become pillowfriends.
Wilson Grooms
3302. AielAdam
At this late stage and 600+ references to Verin in the comments (!) you'll have to excuse me if this has already been said.

Has anyone compiled a list of possible Shadow activities that Verin got up to? Was she the one who unlocked the Waygate in Duopotamia in the TSR?

Bring on Monday!
Tricia Irish
3303. Tektonica
Survey says:

Rand 4 - Back to a good character arc. Come on Rand, go for a 5!
Mat 5 - My favorite Bad Boy.
Perrin-3- loses points for Faile.
Egwene-4.5 - A bit worried about her hook up with Rand.
Nyneave-4 - Used to be a 2, but has proved her worth and loyalty. A lot less braid pulling, yeah!
Thom-4 - Wish he was my grandfather.
Faile-2- I run from women like her and I'm a woman.
Fortuona-3 - Strong but her action with Rand and Mat will determine her awesomeness.
Cadsuane-2- Not very effective with Rand and too arrogant.
Berelain-3 - eh.
Aviendha-3.5 - Strong but irritating.
Min-5 -Smart, loving, a rock, and she reads.
Lan-5- Such high character.
Bashere-2 - Don't know about this guy. A cipher. Could go either way.
Elayne-3 - She's smart, will be a good queen, and is who she is because of how she was raised. She's OK.
Logain-3- Still to be seen, but we hope he goes up!
Gawyn 1- Arrogant, uninformed, but opinionated.
Siuan-4- Smart and getting wiser.
Loial - 4 - A bit verbose, but so sweet. Come back!
Morainne -5- Smart, gutsy, independent, key.
Verin - 5 -Smart, very gutsy, and independent.

This was fun! Thanks RobM

Breakfast:
Black, over easy, wheat, fruit, please, Suffa.
Rob Munnelly
3304. RobMRobM
3302. No. The waygate was opened by Slayer.
T C
3305. Freelancer
Black. Only. Always. And plenty of it.

I see someone else suggested omelet before I could:

3 eggs
crumbled bacon
roasted tomato
onion
bell pepper
mushroom
chipotle salsa on top

Toast? Bah. Hash browns, almost blackened outside, buttery inside.

Characters?

Rand - 5
Mat - 3
Perrin - 4
Egwene - 4
Nynaeve - 3
Thom - 3.5
Faile - 3
Tuon - 3.5
Cadsuane - 2.5
Berelain - 2
Aviendha - 4
Min - 4.5
Lan - 4.5
Bashere - 4
Elayne - 4
Logain - Is on this list, why?
Verin - 4
Siuan - 4
Moiraine - 4.9


Violetdancer@3288

So, Berelain waltzes into Rand's bedchamber, barely dressed, clearly expecting Rand to accept her "offer". I think we can all agree that Lanfear had nothing to do with that. Rand's refusal turns into something much more nightmarish, thanks to the bubble of evil, scaring the First out of her wits (not out of her clothing). Berelain won't be using her carefully crafted image of an "easy woman" to bother Rand again, but she is still the same person. So she shifts her focus to Perrin. And suddenly her behavior is laid at Lanfear's feet? Occam says no.

Same goes for Egwene/Gawyn. There is no forsaken "suggestion" going on, just true, personal affection. Some readers don't like Gawyn, so they need to find a dastardly reason for Egwene to like him? Psychobabble folks call that projecting.


With Elaida/Suffa having her name twisted around, I found myself reading Eluffa, which in my head sounded like e-loufah, which caught me a serious HUZZ (Leigh would say **wibble**). The idea of her rubbing up against me. . .just nasty.


AielAdam@3302

Slayer unlocked the waygate, he told Perrin this in one of their wolfdream encounters.
Tess Laird
3306. thewindrose
Only seasoned warriors and adventurers would have the guts to go into the Tower of Ghenjie to risk their lives to get answers or favors -- probably not too many cooks. LOL.

Ever see Iron Chef? My mom had me watch it when I was visiting - those people would venture to the ToG for sure! Also, I think Laras would too:)

Wet and others. I should have added Verin to the survey - that was an oversight. However, like Moiraine and Tam and Gareth, whom I deliberately chose not to add to the chart, good bet that all will get 5s so what's the point.

I would have included Lan in the pretty much assured to get all 5's, but he got one 4 so far...
**Edit while posting Lan got another non 5 - 4.5, which can be rounded up to 5, anyways...
Sam Mickel
3307. Samadai
Coffee; make it sweet and light
Eggs; over medium
Toast; no thanks. bacon, now we are talking

Rand- 5
Mat- 4.5
Perrin- 4
Egwene- 4.5(5 if all the crap she spouts about controlling Rand is drivel she says to keep the AS in line)
Nynaeve- 4.5
Thom- 4
Faile- 2.5
Tuon- 2.5
Cadsuane- 2 (will hit 4 if she goes down in a blaze of glory)
Berelain- 2(meh)
Aviendha-3.5
Min-4.5(Love a smart women)
Lan- 4.66(Moraines return brings him to 5+)
Bashere- 3.5
Elayne- 4(been around to many pregnant women to not know her awesomeness is just covered in baby hormones.
Logain- 2(meh)
Verin- 4.9(she had to have done some bad things)
Siuan- 4.25
Moiraine- 5+( once she is back she raises Rand, Lan, Nynaeves levels
Daniel Goss
3308. Beren
My addition to the Thread of Dhoom

Characters:
Rand - 5: Please, please tell me that with the laugh, the emo whining is done.
Mat - 4: Whining over not wanting to work replaced with whining about married life. Not nearly as funny. Knock it off, most of these points are based on nostalgia.
Perrin - 3: Sir (almost) not appearing in this book?
Egwene - 5+: CMOA for the series, as far as I'm concerned.
Nynaeve - 4
Thom - 3
Faile - 4: Never liked you, still don't, but you killed Masema. Take your points and get out of here before I change my mind.
For(Tuon)a - 5: Her army most likely has Travelling now. Do you want her mad at you?
Cadsuane - .5: Yes, that's a decimal. The whole book you just looked for better ways to manipulate someone who is cracking under the pressure of too many people trying to manipulate him. DIAF is too quick. Slow-dip acid bath for you.
Berelain - 3: Remind me what we keep you around for? Oh, that's right. And put your dress back on.
Aviendha - 5: Took you long enough. Longer would have meant you were an idiot. Quicker would have just been whining about your unfair punishments.
Min - 5: Smarter than the average oracle.
Lan - 4: Kill something in a mildly cool manner and that final point is yours again.
Bashere - 5: Rand hasn't made you bury a grove of trees yet, so apparently you two are still BFF.
Elayne - 3: Have the kids. Make more ter'angreal.
Logain - 3: Meh
Verin - 5++: Best. Plot Twist. Evar.
Siuan - 4: Yes, you finally are allowing yourself to be human. Yes, you are still annoying.
Moiraine - 5: These points will be active retroactively once you appear on page again. Guaranteed.
Roger Powell
3309. forkroot
AielAdam@3302
Has anyone compiled a list of possible Shadow activities that Verin got up to? Was she the one who unlocked the Waygate in Duopotamia in the TSR?
I think you missed the point of Verin's reveal. Although she had to become Black Ajah (to save her own life, presumably after she was caught "studying" them), she was always on the side of the Light.

This is not to say that she didn't do some evil things. In 70 years of being a mole, she would have almost certainly had to do things in service to the DO on occasion, just so she wouldn't be suspected.

I would imagine that like any mole, she'd try to do the least damage to her secret allies and try to make her superiors think she had done a lot more. It's the same problem that an informant who infiltrates a drug gang faces.

With that in mind, it is pointless to go back through the text and try to attribute any act of the Shadow to Verin. If indeed any of the acts were by her (the attack on Demira maybe?), then they would have been because she had to do something to avoid detection and/or they actually furthered the cause of the Light.

--
On a completely unrelated note: Samadai ... I bow to your Rose Bowl bound Ducks!
Wilson Grooms
3310. 2-Fleurs
C'ant wait for monday! Love to join the discussion, but haven't a clue where to start, so here's a question "Has anyone ever given some serious thought to the duality in the WOT books? The one power, male/female, light-dark etc What does that say for the connection between the Creator and the Dark one?"
Jacy Clark
3311. Amalisa
The Wheel will start weaving again come Monday. And the Tor.com server can maybe breathe a bit!

Survey:
Rand - up to 4, once he made it to the top of Dragonmount. I'm sure he'll achieve 5 before it's all said and one.
Mat - Before going to Tar Valon, he was a 3 tops. Afterwards - all the way up to 5!
Perrin - 4. He's figuring it out.
Egwene - 5. Of all of the TR folk, she has shown less fear and has been the most willing to embrace change and tackle whatever is thrown her way.
Nyneave - 5. She and Mat have grown the most.
Thom - 5. Awesome.
Faile - 3. Lose the jealousy, and she'll end up a 4 easily.
Fortuona - 4. Can't blame the girl for holding to the things she's believed all her life. I think she'll come around and see that the Seanchan way isn't the only way - eventually.
Cadsuane - 3. She was a 4 until TGS. Backslid when she mishandled the Rand/Tam meeting. Don't get me wrong. Rand seeing Tam was important, but she should have been more forthcoming with Tam.
Berelain - 3. Purely based on the fact that the Wise Ones like her. They obviously see something worthwhile there. She could go higher.
Aviendha - 4. I fully expect her to be a 5+ before it's all said and done. She's just no there yet.
Min - 5. Loves Rand unconditionally. She's the most important one of the three.
Lan - 5. He has to live. He just has to! 'Nuff said!
Bashere - 5. He can't be a DF. He just can't. 'Nuff said!
Elayne - 3.5. I give her props for juggling the whole Daughter Heir of Andor/Aes Sedai thing. I don't always like her, though.
Logain - 3. Waiting for the glory...
Moiraine - 5+. Can't wait for her to return!
Loial - 5. Sweet, sweet Loial!
Verin - 5. The best.
Siuan - 5. Doesn't know the meaning of the word "quit"!
Gawyn - 3. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Gareth - 5. Two words: Sean Connery.
Wilson Grooms
3312. AielAdam
Thanks RobMRobM, Freelancer

forkroot@3309:

I'm well aware of Verin's circumstances of joining the BA and how she would obviously try to avoid harming the Lightside as much as possible (without being too suspicious). I was just interested in seeing if anyone had figured out which Shadow acts were committed by her, because there must be some. Do we know if she was at the Darkfriend Social in TGH?

Just throwing it out there...
Sam Mickel
3313. Samadai
Forkroot@3309,

Thanks, I hope Arizona pulls off the upset this weekend for you.
Wilson Grooms
3314. Adrian Sedai
2-Fleurs @ 3310

Isn't it obvious? The creator is male and the dark one is female. They were a couple until the creator did the dirty and cheated on the dark one so the dark one is now doing the equivalent of cutting up his suits and pouring bleach on the mercedes. She isn't evil, just out to break the creators shiny in revenge :)

Actually, thinking about it, its probably more like a gay relationship. The creator is the butch one and the dark one is the screamingly effeminate one. If you've ever seen a camp screaming queen getting revenge on the boyf you'll understand how vicious they can be :)

and before anyone asks, yes I'm gay and yes I've seen the damage. It makes breaking the wheel of time look like tea party!!
Henry Loose
3315. schrodinger
@Amalisa
sean connery as gareth bryne would be amazing! (if we could ever get some movies of the books... however, I believe they would be terrible, something to do with length and cutting plot, etc.)


someone new for the list: Elaida/Suffa (If Suffa is a good damane and gets me a sandwich, she might not get a negative number)

verin was not likely to be at the DF social in TGH, my guess would be for the leaders of the BA, or top two (Bors only sees two, and being a whitecloak, I'm sure he would have mentioned more). So Alviarin and Galina would be my guesses.

she probably had something to do with the amyrlin switcheroo in NS and was probably the culprit in the attack on the SAS by Aiel... I'm certain as more of her letters are opened, we will discover more.
Patrick Huff
3316. pattack
First of all Freelancer, that was a joke, if you can't take one I feel sorry for you. As for flaming out, gotta cull the herd somehow.
Remember it was your generation that made it ok to light up, fuck anything that moved and break the rules at every opportunity. Not to mention put this country in the biggest hole that would make the bore look like a pin prick.

Call me defensive?
Wilson Grooms
3317. 2-Fleurs
Adrian Sedai @ 3314

Ok, personaly I would go for creator woman, Dark One male, male jalous bully etc... But what would happen if we took him out of the picture..........., wher would all the fun go??????
T C
3318. Freelancer
forkroot@3309

It is certainly not canon, but the quickly-flashed grin followed by a studied poker face which I got from Brandon, when I asked if Verin had orchestrated the attack on Demira, it spoke very loudly to me. It was the look a professor gives a student who asks the right question at the right time, ahead of when the professor is going to have to explain it anyway.

Disclaimer: It was not my question, I am not taking credit for it. Whoever brought it up, feel free to raise a hand and take a bow.
Ron Garrison
3319. Man-0-Manetheran
@ 3314: Adrian Sedai

LOL! But you left out taking his favorite golf club and smashing the windows of his car!
T C
3320. Freelancer
pattack

I can see that you failed to do as I suggested. Defensive? No. Offensive? Yes. Boring? Utterly. Welcome to my ignore list. I know, I know, as if you cared. That's fine too.
Alice A
3321. Wetlandernw
lowlandr @3274 - First, Welcome to posting! You know we have a lot of fun with it, so I'm glad you're joining in.

On the balefire discussion, I can only make semi-educated guesses, which someone else will disagree with because they interpret the info we have differently than I. However, given the question you postulate, I think person B would live again. (If it were done with the OP, it's a no-brainer, obviously, but TP-lightning is an open question. As you know, or you wouldn't have asked, of course! :P)

On the second question, there's no "right" answer obtainable at the moment - or at least not in anything I've read, which isn't necessarily exhaustive but includes most of the "canon". My personal theory is that it's a combination of his ta'veren effect and the fact that the memories obtained by the 'Finn are (as noted by others) primarily those of brave and adventurous types. Given that limitation, they of course could have given him the least helpful of those memories - making camp, cooking, hunting, sleeping (or not) on rocks or tree roots, ruling Mayene, whatever trivia floats around in everyone's heads. Instead, they gave him really good stuff - battles, strategy, tactics, logistics, dancing, invective and insult. Might be that they want the DO defeated - who knows what link their dimension has to him? However, I think it just as likely that the ta'veren effect was heavily involved in the whole venture, from his entering Rhuidean, to entering the ter'angreal, to the things he said and the "answers" he received, to Rand coming out of the columns just in time to resuscitate him. The Pattern needs Mat to know certain things, have certain skills, and that's what being ta'veren is all about.

And today's Google "Quote of the Day" is singularly applicable to this thread...
Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know.
Hah! Look like anyone we know around here? ;)
Richard Fife
3322. R.Fife
*pokes head out BunkerV2* Oh... I went all this time without even noticing the small flame war going on in the background? Rockin! Need some eye drops for these dang Saa.

My 2-cents on the Balefire question. Let me put it in computer terms. If you balefire someone, you emptied the recycling bin. No going back and undeleting, no closing without saving and getting it all back.

So, when Person A is balefired by Person B, then Person B is balefired by person C, A does not come back because when the second balefire is looking back through the pattern trying to undo what person B did, it can't figure out what was supposed to go where the first balefire hit, so it has to leave it.

Balefire the balefired balefirer to no balefiring effect.
Tess Laird
3323. thewindrose
Hi Free - I asked you to ask BWS about Demira -and thanks again btw:)

From that which is not canon tBBoBA:{...}when channelers on both sides discovered balefire. The liquid white-hot fire was invincible, burning anything it touched into nonexistence.
This weapon was used liberally for a year by both sides - until they discovered its hidden cost. The searing energy of balefire did more than kill or destroy - it actually burned threads from the Pattern. Not only that; whatever had been done because of those vanished actions also no longer had been done. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time its victim ceased to exist. During the year of unrestricted use, entire cities were burned from the Pattern, and the world and its universe were threatened by the broken and loose threads. Reality itself was in danger of unraveling.
Faced with the possible dissolution of existence, both *sides*, without formal agreement or truce, simply stopped using balefire.


*sides*My question to this would be, if Elan Morin Tedronai understood this, why did he not continue to destroy everything with balefire? He knows what he and the DO wants - total oblivion. Is it possible that only the Dragon can make this happen? That if Rand, on the LTT's grave had channeled balefire through the Choedan Kal, that this would be the only way to destroy the world?
Agree with R.Fifes assesment on how balefire works.

Edit: I do like to use cannon instead of canon:)
Barry T
3324. blindillusion
Wind@3323

Good thought. I mean, wouldn't the One who is destined to save the world be the One who could without doubt destroy it?

In part, that seems to be what this story is about.

Anyway, just my 2 bits. I somewhat take balefire at face value. It destroys everything.
T C
3325. Freelancer
Balefire's primary effect is the removal of its target (animal, vegetable, or mineral) from temporal reality. Once that has happened, and that person or object is outside of temporal reality, not even the use of balefire on the original wielder of balefire can restore said person or object to temporal reality. Things killed or damaged by non-balefire means remain within temporal reality, and any change in their status caused by a victim of balefire is reversed, if said change in status is within the temporal range of the balefire's effect.

Mat, Asmodean and Aviendha died to Rahvin-fired lightning strikes. Proof of this is that their bodies were still present. Had they been killed by balefire, there would have been no corpses. Once Rahvin has been balefired, his actions back to (at least) those lightning strikes had been erased. However, the damage he did to the hallways by weaving balefire at Rand, even though that happened more recently than the lightning strikes, was not erased. The material of the palace which was damaged/missing due to balefire, is utterly gone from temporal reality as though it never existed, and destroying Rahvin in the same way cannot bring it back.

Q.E.D.


thewindrose@3323

I would like to posit an answer to your question about Ishamael. Destroying "everything" wouldn't necessarily free the dark one, so he isn't going to allow that. He needs to be freed to win. Even if everything else burns, the Wheel would turn, and the Pattern would come around to the beginning again. That wouldn't accomplish the dark one's objective.
Alice A
3326. Wetlandernw
thewindrose @3323 and Freelancer @3325: Continuing the thoughts... Possibly, the Pattern and even the Wheel could be destroyed if Elan/Ishy balefired freely "all over the where" (as my daughter likes to say), but the DO would remain imprisoned since his prison is outside the Pattern. Not exactly the main objective, there, when the "Great Lord" is stuck for eternity in his prison. With no ongoing world, there would be no hope of stupid people deciding to drill a hole in the prison to tap a new source of power. The DO doesn't want to break the Wheel until he is completely free.
Tess Laird
3327. thewindrose
Freelancer-
So for Elan to meet his final death and never be born again, the DO would need to be free, stop the wheel of time and viola? Sounds right:)
Edit to include Wetlandernw:)
john massey
3328. subwoofer
Awwww shucks folks. It was the crack of dawn, my dog has no concept of time- go figure- and I was hungry. When I get hungry food is the only thing on my mind. And for me, fiber trumps starch, at least to keep me healthy and um... normal, and I don't know any potato farmers NTTAWWT.

The taint from Bunker 2.0 will be seeping soon. I see some unsuspecting innocent noob getting Rickrolled in the near future.

Ahem, *clink*, *clink* I am thinking that Balefire is the WoT version of a scorched earth policy. Burn it to the ground and when it's gone, it's gone. Point of no return, no matter what jiggery pokery goes on afterwards. Done is done. Fork please:)

Hussy? Maybe if I call her that B would hold it against me;) crap, I'm married...

When one teaches, two learn.
Robert Half


Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
3329. Silvertip
OK, somebody's making Bellamy Brothers jokes ... Monday can't come soon enough, this one's getting a little out of hand--

:-)

S
Don Barkauskas
3330. bad_platypus
thewindrose @3327:
So for Elan to meet his final death and never be born again, the DO would need to be free, stop the wheel of time and viola? Sounds right:)
As someone who plays the viola, I believe you meant "voilà".
:-) (Although I'm sure there's a good viola joke in there---a viola sounds so bad it can stop the turning of the Wheel, or some such.)
Barry T
3331. blindillusion
Off Topic:

I finally got around to putting tGS on a shelf. And I had to rearrange twenty books to make it fit!!

Don't get me wrong, I love a long book, but this thing could be considered a deadly weapon in at least 37 States.
Roger Powell
3332. forkroot
blindillusion@3331
Hah! Just imagine how thick it would be if RJ had not passed on. He had sworn that the series would end in one more book, even if they had to invent a new way to bind it.

Perhaps there would have been an adaptation of a commercial that is currently running. Something like:

Guy enters apartment carrying a humongous book

Guy: "Honey! I'm home. And I've got the new release of A Memory of Light!"

Drops book on coffee table. There is a crash as the entire table goes through the floor into the apartment below and lands in front of a guy sitting on his couch.

Guy in lower apartment: "Sweet! Amazon is faster than I thought!"

The guy in the upper apartment looks through the hole

Upper Guy: "Dude, I want that book."

Lower guy examines the book.

Lower Guy: "So you ordered one too, huh?" ...

Lower guy is leafing through the book.

Upper Guy: "That's not your book!"

Lower guy continues leafing...

Lower Guy: "Check. This. Out!! Wow... so THAT'S who killed Asmodean"
Jonah Feldman
3333. relogical
On the neverending balefire debate:

In my opinion, balefire's effects cannot be erased, even by balefire. The description of the theory behind it makes me fairly certain of this.

But what people always forget is that there is a reason that time travel and time manipulation are impossible in real life.

No matter what form of time travel is used in your story, it creates a paradox. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. There is no way to affect the past and not alter the future, even so slightly that it's unnoticeable. All of your favorite movies lied to you. Time loops look nice, but they don't actually resolve anything, in fact, they make things worse.

If you're going to have time travel, fine, it's fiction, go ahead. Just come up with a ruling and make it work. The whole 'pattern' metaphor makes it easier than normal. Hopefully, the "Balefiring the Balefirer" problem never happens, so we don't have to address this.
Rob Munnelly
3334. RobMRobM
22 responses. Survey says


Rand: 4.38
Mat: 4.56
Perrin: 3.45
Egwene: 4.52
Nynaeve: 4.75
Thom: 4.31
Faile: 2.7
Fortuona: 3.2
Cadsuane: 2.15
Berelain: 2.72
Aviendha: 3.84
Min: 4.27
Lan: 4.68
Bashere: 3.81
Elayne: 3.45
Logain: 3.61

Partial vote category

Moiraine: 4.99
Verin: 4.83
Loial: 4.75
Rhuarc: 3.83
Gawyn: 1.85
Siuan: 4.13
Gareth (one vote): 5
Taim (one vote): 1

Winners

Major character: Nyneave in upset over Mat
Minor character with full voting: Lan
Minor character with limited voting: Moiraine

Losers

Major character: Faile
Minor character with full voting: Cadsuane
Minor character with limited voting: Gawyn

Most variable responses: Bashere, Berelain, Fortuona.

Rob
Wilson Grooms
3335. dannielle from Australia
@ samadai 3295
Thanks for the heads up about Taim/Demandred. I was SO sure. And no you didn't come across as an ASS, unlike

@ alreadymadwithsurveys 3296
I thank you also for bothering to set me straight but you infact did sound like an Ass
Tess Laird
3336. thewindrose
No matter what form of time travel is used in your story, it creates a paradox. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. There is no way to affect the past and not alter the future, even so slightly that it's unnoticeable.

Well... We are here in existance, as well as multiple universes so how did that happen - isn't that the ultimate paradox? Or never say never:) (p.s.to Free - I do believe, so therefore I am:)

Oh, and thanks bad_platypus I did mean voilà.
Do you play the Viola professionally? It is so cool what a diverse and talanted forum we are. Obviously I make the grammarians flinch a bit here and there;)

Forkroot - good one! (All though I do believe RJ said he 'wasn't gonna give it up' - evar!) Or maybe put in that Encyclopedia that I long to get my hands on when it comes out.
Leslie Annis
3337. Lannis
fork @ 3332: BAHAhahaha!


Dannielle from Australia @ 3335:

I like you! Welcome to the bunker! This way to the treat table...


Not to panic anyone, folks, but I've been watching our newly stocked DVD shelves... I think Elaiffa's been stealing from our collection... Star Wars is definitely gone... and so's the majority of our Monty Python set. ::gasp!::

Bad, bad damane!
john massey
3338. subwoofer
The dog is winning. So far she has dragged me out of bed at all odd hours, destroyed two pairs of shoes and the fact that there is a blizzard outside doesn't even phase her. Just sits there in the snow and looks a me freezing my butt off. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Jedi councils etc. Was thinking that there is always a Jar Jar in every story. Somebody totally annoying yet either throw in to lighten the mood or relate to children. He is not nec. comic relief but I am putting Gawyn up for the WoT Jar Jar. Any other ideas? Anyone second the nomination?

Excuse my manners, welcome to our little community all:) I see a bunch of new posters, or at least people who have joined onto the WoT thread. For the most part, we don't bite, but, like my dog, we have been know to destroy the odd pair of shoes-stares at R.Fife pointedly and then not "heal" them.

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh- dog.........
Woof™.
Jack Diamond
3339. violetdancer
Freelancer@3305

No. I think because Berelain did those things, Lanfear felt threatened. She may have suggested that Berelain focus her attention on one of Rand's friends.

What makes me suspect something more to the Egwene/Gawyn relationship/obsession are little bits like the one on p. 191 (TGS, Unexpected Encounters). Egwene is thinking on Rand and how much he's changed and how much she's changed since they left the Two Rivers. And THAT leads her to think of Gawyn. Even she thinks it's odd.
Tricia Irish
3340. Tektonica
Welcome Danielle from Australia! I like your spunk.

Alreadymadwiththesurveys@3296 is just sour grapes. Sure we complain, but you see, we're really proud of the length! Which is why we make lists of characters, movies for the bunker and complain about Suffaida. We are WOT junkies and this is our current fix. (Until Leigh returns on Monday!)

Sub@3338

I second the Gawyn for JarJar! Very funny. Perfect. Still annoying.

And RobM. Thanks again for the survey and the recap. Very telling.
Richard Fife
3341. R.Fife
Subwoofer @ 3338
I post one little, harmless link, and all of the sudden, everyone wants me to wear a scarlet R. Light!

Honestly, I don't think Lanfear would have felt any threat at Berelain in the beginning of TSR. She was at the height of her "I'm perfect, everything else is an insect, and LTT/Rand is already mine and just doesn't know it." After all, she let Min snuggle right up next to Rand in TGH and said "keep him safe". Also note that this before Lanfear started to actively seduce Rand (naughty dreams style later in TSR). Perhaps she was enjoying his "innocence."
Rob Munnelly
3342. RobMRobM
Re the survey results at 3334 above, I should note that I had a more elaborate description of the results, with notes and wry commentary, but I twitched and deleted it all. Arrrgggghhhh.

Rob
Tricia Irish
3343. Tektonica
I don't believe it. I just wrote a long entry on the lack of Seanchan clues in Books 4-6, and some interesting bits about Rand and Verin, went to post, and it erased my entry.

So Rob, although I would love to read your musings and wry commentary, I totally understand, as I don't want to re-write mine either.

Check out Book 6, Ch.6 for Ishamael's views on Rand being LTT's soul reborn, and Book 6 Ch. 46 for an amusing take on Verin/Merana/Demira.

Anyway, there's not alot of Seanchan in these books that hasn't been totally rehashed. They get going in Ebou Dar. Big Clue must be elsewhere.
Jack Diamond
3344. violetdancer
RobM@3342

Good thing you weren't weaving Balefire when you twitched. We might have lost Las Vegas.

Tektonica@3343 Re: the Big Clue

I've been rethinking my original idea about Herid Fel and the Finns (way back at 2812) and wondering if there isn't a connection not only to Min but also Olver. Maybe Fel wished he could be young again? I know he was killed because he was giving out the Shadow's secrets, but why so spectacularly?
T C
3345. Freelancer
relogical@3333

I do believe that the argument has been made, that every case of fictional time travel includes anomalies, anachronisms, or impossibilities which cannot be adjusted or corrected for. Those do not, however, constitute nor even point to
a reason that time travel and time manipulation are impossible in real life.
The most reliable evidence possible that there will not be time travel during human existence upon the Earth is simple; nobody from the future has traveled back and tried to fix things that have gone wrong in history. Time is linear and immutable.

Moving through space at great speed does indeed alter the pace of time progression, but on a miniscule scale, and the closer a moving object's relative velocity approaches that of light (c), the more energy is required to continue accelerating, as an asymptotic function approaching infinity. And even at that, the result of increased velocity is to reduce the pace of time passage, not reverse it to the past, not leap it to the future. Why? An even easier answer; that's the way God wants it. We experience life bound by this linear time, from our beginning to our end, once and once only, with a single objective. Choose to love the Creator, or not. The almost humorous part of that is, everyone gets their wish. If you choose one way, you spend eternity with God. If you choose the other way, you spend eternity away from God. Free will at its finest.


thewindrose@3336

The way you wrote that, I do believe, so therefore I am, almost suggests that you are saying your belief causes you to exist. I'm hoping that's an error on my part, but if not, it's an interesting thrashing of DesCartes. "Cogito ergo sum" declares that the ability to think is proof of existence, as well as an effect of existence, not a cause.

RobMRobM & Tektonica

I always use a Notepad to compose comments, then paste them in here and fire away. If the browser fails for some reason, I haven't lost the text.
Thomas Keith
3346. insectoid
Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be a Tor.com-shattering kaboom!

Just kidding. ;) But the load times and fatal error occurances are increasing.

Sub @3275: When did breakfast become part of the survey? For the record: I don't drink coffee (OJ is fine), eggs scrambled, either wheat or white toast.

Anyways, I'll add my vote for Siuan=4, Gareth=5, and Gawyn=2 (who still has a lot to prove...)

Lannis @3299: I think Elaiffa is looking for the plans to the Death Star ;)

Fork @3332: BAHAHAhahaha!!

Lannis @3337: I wonder why she would want Monty Python?

Sub @3338: Good Idea! I'll third your nomination.

Oh goodie, my Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator!
Richard Fife
3347. R.Fife
To the "real time travel" concept, it could be that the past is as mutable and unset as the future, thus time is not a 1-d timeline, but a 2-d one in all directions (or perhaps 3-d into meshes).

Therefore, any travel would have 0 effect, as all you did was follow another branch at the current juncture you visited, and any returning forward (or even the initial rear) motion has to be a vector across possibilities, not just a scalar increment of time.

In WoT speak, perhaps Balefire is just changing which Portal Stone world is the "main" one and shifting things around.
Ron Garrison
3348. Man-0-Manetheran
@ 3346 insectoid

Suffalaida: The Amyrlin that says, "Ny!"

And I'll have:
coffee - black
eggs - over easy unless there are any fresh cinnamon rolls!
bacon - crispy

Thank you. ::rides off to sound of coconuts::
Tricia Irish
3349. Tektonica
Re: Violetdancer@3344.
I've been rethinking my original idea about Herid Fel and the Finns (way back at 2812) and wondering if there isn't a connection not only to Min but also Olver. Maybe Fel wished he could be young again? I know he was killed because he was giving out the Shadow's secrets, but why so spectacularly?


I went back and reread your entry @2812. I hadn't made the connection between Herid Fel and Herid the wagon driver. (Lots of people have the same name, after all.....just not in the WOT.) Fel does seem to disappear often enough, but how would he get to the waste, to fall through the doorway to meet the Finns? That would take a lot more time than going fishing does. I'm not holding my breath for this theory, but Fel is a bit of a cipher. Where does he get all his info? Just the books? I hope we get more about him, and what Min is reading.

As for Min, he could have some sort of intuition about her, but we haven't read anything to indicate he has "viewings". I took his thinking Min was good looking at face value, but it is an odd thing for RJ to have mentioned, and actually have brought up again several times in the books. Ummmmm.
Food for thought.

When you mention Olver, do you mean to imply that Fel's soul was put into Olver? I don't think that could've worked, as Olver is too old. Maybe we'll have to talk to the time travel guys, above. I don't think so.

Free@3445

Thanks for the Notebook tip. I suppose I could use Word and copy and paste. I don't have Notebook. What is it?

Insectoid@334, Lannis@3299

I didn't think Elaiffa had enough of a sense of humor, read any, to steal Monty Python. Maybe she just wanted to tick us all off.

Breakfast for dinner anyone? Is Sufaida still serving? Coffee black and strong, scrambled with salsa, and I'll have some of that bacon too. Did someone say Cinnamon buns? Yum. Go Gators!!
Michael Schroeder
3350. tacoma
Freelancer @3345

The most reliable evidence possible
that there will not be time travel
during human existence upon the Earth
is simple; nobody from the future has
traveled back and tried to fix things
that have gone wrong in history. Time
is linear and immutable.

How do you know this? How can you prove it? Would we be able to know if anything in our past has been changed? This kind of counterfactual isn't evidence at all.

Also,

Moving through space at great speed
does indeed alter the pace of time
progression, but on a miniscule [sic]
scale...

I agree. I also think this does constitute time travel. It's been documented on a number of occasions that clocks "lose time" as they orbit the earth. Current astronauts with time in space are actually younger than everyone else based on the time dilation--they have aged less. Granted this isn't dramatic and not a controllable (or significant) occurrence, but it means that it has happened in our lifetimes and says something about how we experience the passing of time.

As to the part about God wanting us to experience life this way (which is the more interesting question): I wonder if God's will has anything at all to do with this or if in fact, He just set the wheels in motion, so to speak, and our mental capacities are just too limited to really comprehend time motion at all. I would submit that experiencing anything at all about the passage of time is impossible for humans and that our perceptions of the effects of time passing is what we're really talking about.

By way of example, do you remember how time used to drag on when you were waiting for something (Christmas or a birthday) when you were a child and now, as an adult, the year goes by so quickly and Christmas is here before you know it? I believe that this is just our perceptions at work. When you're 6, a whole year is a sixth of your life. When you're 36, a whole year is 1/36th of your life. The ratio here (1:6) should, IF it was measurable, mean that for a 36 year old, the passing of 6 years should "feel" the same as one year for the 6 year old. I don't believe that's true, but again, it's not something you can quantify. Time passes at, for all practical purposes, a constant rate, yet our perception of time passing is based on how much we've "experienced" and not on how much time has actually gone by.

Oh, and I know who killed Asmodean. Actually that's a lie...I don't know much of anything at all except that I feel a new post coming any day now. That and I need to get my thesis finished. And this lamp, but that's it![2]
Tricia Irish
3351. Tektonica
The Gators looked awful. The Tide ruled. They were awesome. ( I am not a Gator, but I have many friends who are, so I must root for them at game time. Go Hawkeyes!) I just wish it had been a better game. Thanks for a great four years, Tebow. It was fun to watch you.

Re: Free and Tacoma@ re: Time travel:

Help me out here....

Time is a totally human construct. It is relative to where you are and the speed you are traveling. (General Relativity.) Our perception of the passage of time is probably just as valid a way to evaluate our time here on earth as any other construct.
Spacetime is a different animal. I'm trying hard to grasp it all, but it makes my head hurt.
Jay Dauro
3352. J.Dauro
Tektonica @3349

Not Notebook but Notepad. This is a basic text editor in Windows.

START => ALL PROGRAMS => ACCESSORIES => NOTEPAD

Handy for plain text (such as what we post.)
Barry T
3353. blindillusion
Tektonica@3351

Time is totally a human concept = THANKYOU!!

Someone who agrees.

You should see a discussion Freelancer and I had at...1589, 1606, 1607, 1610, 1620 and 1651.

We disagree, but discussions with Free are always fun.
Henry Loose
3354. schrodinger
regarding time travel... my favorite theory is the "whirlpool" theory (I don't actually know the name of the theory, this just represents it best). The basic theory is that you can go into the future, but not into the past beyond the use of the time machine (would explain lack of people with death rays trying to take over the world).

regarding SEC championships... As an Auburn student... well, lets just say that I have a less than favorable view of Alabama. Although come on Tebow... you lost, that doesn't mean you have to cry... be a man, if you lose, accept it and learn from your mistakes.

can't wait for monday, tiiiiimmmeee iiiiiiisssss sssssssllllllllooooooowwwwwwwwwwiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnngggggggg dddddoooooooowwwwwwwwnnnnnnnn. In the words of Monty Python: Get on with it!
Wilson Grooms
3355. Silvertip
Is it Time again?

The distortion of time we have been able to impose on something as large as a spacecraft so far is indeed tiny (albeit measurable, as Tacoma points out). The effect, however, is not inherently small. In particle accelerators, certain particles that should decay in, say, microseconds, are observed to hang around for seconds or minutes because they are moving at some large fraction of the speed of light. (I'm out of my field here, but I believe my description is at least qualitatively accurate). Effects such as this can be time travel in the sense of two objects moving into the future at different rates, but nothing is ever observed to travel in time in the sense of moving backward and revisiting events that have already had a causal influence on that object. RJ's discussion, quoted somewhere up there ::points vaguely up the page:: about time in regular space versus TAR is actually quite sophisticated here, and fully in tune with special relativity. Birgitte can't say how time calibrates between the real world and TAR at any given point, but we still know that Olver can't be Gaidal Cain, since that would violate causality.

@R. Fife: What you propose more or less works within Hugh Everett's many-worlds interpretation -- it's what the Star Trek "reboot" took advantage of. (Although, in RL, having one world be the "main" one would probably amount to a privileged reference frame, which is verboten). But I suspect you are due for a visit from the ghost of Occam ...

@Freelancer: Just for myself, rather than invoking a Creator, I personally will instead stick with the physical rationale, namely, that travel backward in time would inevitably lead to intolerable paradoxes in causality, even if we manage to avoid overtly and directly doing violence to our ancestors (everything affects everything, basically; the traveler couldn't avoid "contaminating the timeline" from his/her first breath.) But whatever works for you, brother, is fine by me ::picture friendly grin removing any suggestion of irony from that sentence:: Where you and I do agree, I suspect, is in the thought that the only tolerable universe for sentient beings to live in is one where we have choices to make, and those choices have consequences, and we bear the responsibility for those consequences. There's no such thing as a do-over. Which is why many-worlds gives me a moral stomachache also.

Whether we actually live in a morally tolerable universe, of course, is a different question.

Peace,

S
Wilson Grooms
3356. Adrian Sedai
2-Fleurs @ 3317
You could be right. I hadn't looked at it from that angle. Of course, it makes perfect sense. The Dark one is the abusive ex husband :)

Man-O-Manethren @ 3319

Lol. the events you mentioned didn't come to my attention until after the event. Poor guy, you'd think he would know by now that a certain type of young lady doesn't see a person, they see a meal ticket. One made me laugh, she has allegedly been seeing the gentleman concerned for many many months but complains he was lousy in bed and didn't think about her needs. How very strange that she is now selling her soul for large sums of money.


We return you now to regular programming. Please try not to break the lovely Tor web site as I'm suffering from withdrawl symptoms without Leighs wonderful re-reads.


As an aside, because I can't be doing with the long load times and refresh rates waiting for the captcha to pop up the accept.............

I notice nobody has commented on the rather obvious point of Galad joining the whitecloaks. I thought it was so obvious that people would have commented on it to the point of death but nope, not one peep.

Galad had to join the whitecloaks. They were a force for good set up to act as an army during the coming final battle. Until that time, they were to act as a force for the light, to keep the peace and root out the forces of darkness. Over the centuries their purpose was corrupted by power and politics, seeing evil where none existed. They became so convinced of their own point of view that anyone who believed differently was obviously a darkfriend. The aes Sedai were behind the breaking of the world so were obviously evil.

Galad is (for those who understand the reference) Lawful Good. He would make most Paladins look like they aren't trying. He will do the right thing no matter what the cost. We have only ever really seen him from the viewpoint of Elaine who really doesn't like him and doesn't understand his morality.

Galad is probably the only person in the entire WoT world who can take over the whitecloaks and steer them to the place their founders intended them to be. Anyone else taking over would be tainted from the process but Galad does it from seeing something is wrong and putting it right. not from any sense of personal ambition, but from being the only person who can see what needs to be done and doing it. As far as he was concerned it didn't matter if he was to be executed immediately afterwards. His sense of right and wrong is such a part of him that he couldn't do anything else.

I like Galad. I just think he gets a bad press because of Elaine and our instinctive dislike of Taringail. Political marriages work extremely well as a device for bringing peace to opposing factions, they don't often work well for the people actually involved. tigraine gone, Taringail not happy, Morgase unaproachable, it's no wonder the poor bloke has issues. If the Dark one had given it any thought Galad could have been a major force for his side. Imagine what would have happened if his qualities were utilised for the forces of darkness instead of the light.....
Alice A
3357. Wetlandernw
Adrian Sedai @3356 - It's just possible that no one has discussed Galad joining the Whitecloaks here, because it happened long ago. Eight books ago. Not a hot topic for discussion on the TGS thread. And we have seen him from his own rather extensive POV, in the prologue to Knife of Dreams.
Jacy Clark
3358. Amalisa
Insectoid@3346

Oh goodie, my Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator!


Ah... thank you for that! *lol*
Thomas Keith
3359. insectoid
Amalisa @3358: You're welcome :) The load time here was getting depressing.

EDIT: And fatal errors; can't forget those. ::sigh::
craig thrift
3360. gagecreedlives
subwoofer@3338

Im gonna go for Weiramon as the WoT Jar Jar. I actually like Gawyn and Galad.
Richard Fife
3361. R.Fife
@3355 Silvertip
a) Occam does not deny the possibilty of complex solutions, but instead only indicates the greater possibilty of simplier ones. That said, it also says "the simplest solution that matches the evidence". If the evidence is "Time Travel is possible", then a many-worlds solution does match (however poorly executed by that movie.)

b) The "Main World" thing I brought up was in reference to Randland only and drawing from the discussions of how portal stone worlds are "thinner" and "less real" the further from the "real world" you got.

c) This being Cthulhu month on Tor.com and all, I have to say: no law says this universe has to be rational to our level of sentience. In fact, it is rather presumptious, for athiest or religious vein, to assume that we could understand the whole of the universe. From the religious, your diety is always seen to be of a greater intellegence and understanding than you, and therefore could have created the universe in ways you will never be able to parse. From the athiest, well, we are as pond scum to the rest of the universe, so why think we could understand everything. We hardly expect real pond scum to understand advanced calculus and physics. So, yeah. Cthulhu f'tang.
Rob Munnelly
3362. RobMRobM
@3360. Wow, I never knew Jar Jar was a darkfriend.

Upon reflection, I still see LTT's unprompted endorsement of Weimaron as the biggest WTF moment in TGS. If I actually believed LTT is all a construct of Rand (I remain skeptical, despite the TGS closing), I'd have dropped Rand a half-point or even a point based on that comment alone.

One survey follow up - the rise of Nyneave to favorite character status is a huge shocker, given how many people disliked her based on her conduct in the early books and, even now, based on how temperamental she remains. But sticking with Rand - who needs her desperately - even though her Mashiara is heading to likely death in the Borderlands counts for a lot.
Leslie Annis
3363. Lannis
tacoma @ 3350: Very interesting post... I wasn't aware of clocks losing time in orbit, though I've heard, before, that same theory of time and patience relative to age. Sorry, don't have anything of substance to add... just thought I'd wave to you, Freelancer, and Silvertip from the peanut gallery. :)


Ahem, *cough* sorry BlindIllusion... I think I may have spaced on the earlier conversations about the nature of time... or, you know, scrolled through some of the mess... can you truly blame me? ;)


Tektonica @ 3351: Here, I brought some Advil for those of us in the cheap seats... :)


Tektonica: Yes, Elaiffa's slowly culling our DVD deck... we're missing Full Metal Jacket and Labyrinth now! Damn it, Suffaida! What are you doing with them?! Anyone want to suggest disciplinary tactics?


@ RobM: re: Nynaeve's climb to the top... I agree with your assessment there... the fact she's bandwagoning the Self-sacrifce and Needs of the World Train with Rand in order to actually have time with her Mashiara down the road makes perfect sense to me.


EDIT: Just totally rude to spell Tektonica's name wrong... twice. :/
Wilson Grooms
3364. dozburger1
Apologies if this is blindingly obvious to everyone else, but I’ve always been confused with a question raised by the attached passages of text. Firstly:

Question
In the AoL, The Dark One broke free either partly, or wholly from his prison. If he did so, what prevented him from immediately taking control of the Pattern and reforming it in his image?

The Sources

From Rand’s Aiel ancestor’s viewing of the Bore being created:
“What seemed a tiny chip of white spun away from the Sharom in a jet of black fire; it descended, deceptively slow, insignificant. Then a hundred gouts spurted everywhere around the huge white sphere. The Sharom broke apart like an egg and began to drift down, falling, an obsidian inferno. Darkness spread across the sky, swallowing the sun in unnatural night, as if the light of those flames was blackness. People were screaming, screaming everywhere.”

From The Strike on Shayol Ghul:
“We still cannot be certain how long passed between the creation of the Bore and the actual beginning of what would come to be called the War of the Shadow, yet plainly at least fifty years and possibly more than one hundred were marked by a rapid decline in the social order and an equally rapid increase in a thousand ills that previously had been either rare or entirely unknown.”

From LTT:
“.. we used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way!”


Some thoughts
It seems that even if the Dark One is touching the Pattern, it doesn’t mean he’s ‘won’. Did the Pattern protect itself, even though the Dark One was touching it? If so, how? Probably with something other than swords and the One Power prevented him from winning – I mean it wasn’t like a whole bunch of soldiers stood next to the Bore and stopped him from getting out. And likewise, The Strike on Shayol Ghul makes it clear that a One Power barrier was NOT erected around the Dark One (this was proposed, but wasn’t performed).
So the question (for me) becomes: what else could have prevented the Dark One from taking control? My tuppence: I think it was the ‘amount’ of order still present in the Pattern – perhaps where a certain amount of order is present, the Dark One (who embodies chaos) cannot conquer. So perhaps to defeat the Dark One, Rand has to do something to increase the ambient level of order present across Randland. If the amount of overall order were to reach a peak at the time when Rand breaks the seals, then perhaps the Pattern might even remove the Bore from itself - as order would seem to be anathema to the Dark One.

That’s a bit of a loony theory – but I just think that removing the Bore (not sealing, because the Bore has to be removed from the Pattern as Herid Fel pointed out) will involve a bit more than the True Power, saidin, saidar and a few sa-angreal…
Tricia Irish
3365. Tektonica
blind@3353

Re: Time. A compadre! I don't pretend to the understanding Free has, being a professional and all, but he is enlightening to read! I've been revisiting some old books from college philosophy of physics, and trying to meld them with current thinking, ie: string theory. Headdesk, headdesk, headache.

As for our reality (not WOT); one planet, one run, make it the best you can! Anything more is gravy.

Adriansedai@3356

Re: Galad. I respect his rightousness, but I think he'd be a pain to hang around with. He is a simple, understandable guy, and you're right, his selflessness could be just what the Whitecloaks need to bring them back to what they were intended to be.

RobM@3362

Re Nynaeve: I am shocked too, even at my own new found admiration for her.
She was my very least favorite character in the early books. That could be because of her constant braid pulling, temper, and lack of self-awareness/introspection. She always had a good moral compass, however. Now that she's accepted her Aes Sedai-ness, found love, can channel at will, and has (mostly) stopped the braid pulling, she's much more tolerable. It is her stalwart support of Rand that really puts her over the top. She and Min, the only two he can really trust......and of course, her love for Lan.

Lannis 3363

I didn't even notice the spelling. Just nice to be noticed.

dozburger1@3364

Very interesting! And a good topic for discussion, if the site doesn't crash....
What will it take to seal the bore? I like your "order" theory, but their must be more.....thoughts anyone?
Wilson Grooms
3366. alreadymadwithnynaeve
Of course Nynaeve is gonna stick with Rand even while her husband is heading off to his death. Rand is the
only one who can send help. I'm still not sold on her, she still has a lot of wrong-headed preconceptions and assumptions even as she tries her best to somehow connect with Rand. She still thinks she knows better than Rand what to do. I have a feeling all her baggage about what men should do as opposed to what women should do will still end up biting her in the ass.
john massey
3367. subwoofer
@insecoid sub hungry= can't think about anything else. And my wife keeps getting me random things when we go out for breakfast etc and I ask her to order me the "usual".

El Blizzardo Diablo here. Poopy. -16.6F or -27C. What was I thinking living up here? And the dog wants to go for a walk. That should be an adventure:(

Ny- well I believe much can be attributed to the way she is featured in TGS. Very prominent, very loyal. And the sniffing and braid pulling and teeth gnashing has been er... written out of the story. Maybe a BwS thing. She was a sack of hammers at the begining, but things can change.

Time Travel- I am of the Doctor Who persuasion myself and wonder what would happen if one of the Forsaken stumbled upon a Tardis in a stasis box...

mmmmmmmmmmmmm bacon...

mmmmmmmmmmmmm coconut cream pie... maybe even key lime...

wipes drool dinner?

Woof™.
Jay Dauro
3368. J.Dauro
Time Travel
With all the recent discussion, I started looking at the article on Wikipedia They actually have a great article. For those interested, give it a look. Some very interesting ideas.
Bill Reamy
3369. BillinHI
And now for something completely different.... although not really, given the recent comments re Nynaeve...

Funniest Nynaeve line ever? In TFoH, Ch 33 A Question of Crimson, Valan Luca asks about Nynaeve's puffy eye (which she had acquired from Latelle earlier) and Nynaeve comes back with "I did not like the way it looked at me in the mirror this morning, so I bit it."
Tricia Irish
3370. Tektonica
alreadymadwithnynaeve@3366
Well, there is that. She is a know-it-all, as most aes sedai are. She is looking out for Lan, which she should do, as his wife, and a key member of Team Light. I also think she feels for Rand, and as the former Wisdom, she still would like to help him in any way she can. (Chodan Kal.) She'll be there at the End, fighting all the way....I hope.

I can't believe I'm defending Nynaeve. My teeth used to ache when she was on screen. (Much the same as Faile.) But she is proving herself brave, true and loyal, and thank you BWS for toning her down!

Sub@3367

You are crazy. Humans can't live at those temperatures. What were you thinking getting a new puppy in the winter??

Lannis@3366....forgot to thank you for the Advil too. Will need it after I read J.Dauro's link to Wiki on Time Travel@3368 Thanks both.

BillinHI@3369 Great line! RJ having fun.

Seriously, I was just listening to a lecture on the Iliad and the Odyssey where they discussed the characters in terms of types of heroism. Achilles was the hero that did the right thing, no matter what, and Odysseus was the trickster, making his name by guile. I'm sure RJ, and all of us, for that matter, have read this, and the 13thD no doubt has an essay on it, but I thought I'd mention it here because of the recent discussion on Galad.

I was also struck by the Rand/Mat fit. Rand not wanting to kill women, wanting to feed the starving nations, let justice rule for both nobel and common men.....this before his little TP backflip....and Mat, the obvious trickster. I'm sure it's totally intentional.

Back to the NYTimes......
Henry Loose
3371. schrodinger
@Subwoofer

Yay! Doctor Who. I can't wait for the new specials to come out... it sucks being in the US (in regards to Dr. Who) because we have to wait basically a whole year later than the viewers in the UK (whats the situation up north?).

I'm thinking this is how Asmodean died (we don't know whether or not the door he opened was blue ;-) ), Asmo opens TARDIS, sees the Doctor, and dies of shock upon seeing that the inside of the ship is bigger than the outside. The Doctor is stunned, first, that someone could enter the TARDIS, and second, at the fact that someone just died on his floor. So he gets out of there and realizes that he still has a corpse on board. Then Daleks attack and Asmo's body is destroyed, and the Doctor and the TARDIS escape.
Jacy Clark
3372. Amalisa
Huzzah! I'm a Who-vian from waaaay back, thanks to PBS! (One of the many reasons I'm a fan of Public Broadcasting!) I really love David Tennant, and Chris Eccleston was also awesome. But Tom Baker will always be the Doctor...

How have we managed to not have a Doctor Who discussion before now? Or did I just miss it... hmmm...

subwoofer@3367 - I don't do coconut (except in pina coladas), but I will add a key lime pie to the baking frenzy - just for you!

dozburger1@3364 - Very interesting... Remember Verin's discussion with Egwene back in TDR: The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order.

As I was rereading that passage, something else jumped out at me. After Verin described the Age Lace, the warp and the woof and that there is only one Creator and only one Dark One for all the worlds, Egwene asks her what it has to do with being a Dreamer.

Verin answers: ...The point is that there is a third constant (emphasis mine) besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod...

Maybe the Dark One has be confronted in T'a'r. Or maybe seals placed in T'a'r are all that can hold him. Rand can enter the World of Dreams. So can Nynaeve and Egwene. And Perrin, for that matter.

*will have to ponder this some more*
Wilson Grooms
3373. Adrian Sedai
wetlandernw @ 3357

I wasn't saying that he hadn't joined a long time ago. It's just that there has been a bit of Galad bashing many hundreds of posts ago (possibly thousands) and i was surprised that there wasn't a defence of the guy from an opposing point of view to "Galad is a git" that crops up regularly. And as threads are pulled together and plot points from as far back as TEOTW are now starting to make sense I thought i would share what I felt was obvious now from the point of view of TGS. I accept that Galad had a cameo in this one but I suspect he is going to have a good chunk of plot heading his way soon. Rands is complete for now, Egwene likewise. The next book is (hopefully) Matt and Perrin and from the sound of it we might be going back in time a few days to Galad meeting up with Perrin and finding his mom is alive. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a box of tissues ready. After she has spanked him for joining the whitecloaks I suspect there will be a bit of overdue stepmother and stepson bonding going on and I don't want to be taken by surprise like I was with Verin.


As a side note, does anyone know how to get tear stains out of paper? The pages went all wrinkly :(
Tricia Irish
3374. Tektonica
Adriansedai@3373

I always thought Galad got a bad rap. He is a good guy, if a bit rigid. As I said above, in 3370, you wouldn't want to "hang" with him, but you would want him on your side.

I think Morgase will initially be appalled that he is in White, given her rough treatment by the WCs, but when she finds out he killed her Perp, she'll be thrilled. BTW, do you think he gets together with Berelain, or does she just fall for him? (As per Min's viewing of her falling for a man in white.)

Amalisa@3372

Very interesting Verin quote about Tel'aranroid.....so it surrounds or is within all worlds.....maybe that IS where they have to go.....thoughts anyone?
Patrick Huff
3375. pattack
fr n hv nvr bn n thrd tht hd s mny whnrs. Frlncr y vrblwn wndbg, g #$%@ yrslf. t's t bd y ddn't flm t nd sv s ll frm yr nsffrbl lm pstng. dn't gv flmn' ht bt y r ny f yr crns n hr.

Why dn't ll y nrds lvn' n th bnkr g bk sm spng rt cks nd sv th wrld frm yr drb slss rmblng.

thght ths wld b gd st t ntrtn sm qstns nd t prvd sm nsght f my wn, bt nstd ll gt ws grp f crr WT trds hrlng crp frm thr rfcs n vry drctn nd dmnshng nyn wth nw ntrprttn r d. ll ths bhnd th gs f mn tht s dd nd cn't bck p hs r hr ds frm th grt bynd. HW CNVNNT!!!!

f hv md ny nms n hr wh dn't dsrv t m srry. Fr ths f y pld p n yr bks lk trds n th sht thrn, GT LF!!!
Jacy Clark
3376. Amalisa
Adrian Sedai@3357

Re tear stains on paper... I would let them stay as a poignant reminder of being so deeply moved by the written word. :)

As a side note: I was a long time archivist for a fan fiction/roleplaying site. It was a practical thing, due to the fact that our server wasn't the most reliable and it would crash on a regular basis. So I have literally years of creative effort by a devoted group of writers stored on my harddrive (as well as beaucoup cds because, hey, what's the point of it all if my harddrive fails, right?).

The point being that, due to the incredible load time and fatal errors generated by this thread, I have now saved it. (Also due to the fact that I'm oh-so-slightly OCD.) For some odd reason, Notepad disappeared from my computer months ago. Also, oddly enough, I couldn't get the posts to copy/paste onto Wordpad unless I did them one at a time - or by paragraph, for the longer posts, and I'm not that OCD. So I was forced to save them on WordPerfect11 (of which I'm not fond). It does, however, allow for page count. As of the post immediately prior to this one, this one thread now takes up 1354 pages. That's not including photos, which did not copy.

I will draw the line at calculating pages by poster. It does scare me a little that I would even think of the possibility... ;)

Oh, and as a point of reference, Leigh's post that started this madness was seven pages... :D
Ron Garrison
3377. Man-0-Manetheran
@ 3356  Adrian Sedai:
Thanks for your very thoughtful essay on Galad. That is the first time I’ve ever considered him a character that could have a positive influence on the story. You are right on. Elayne described him as having to do the right thing no matter who it hurt. That’s exactly the type of person it would take to straighten out the Whitecloaks.

AND - He first started hanging with the Whitecloaks in Book 4 (TBC?)

@ 3360 gagecreedlives:
Weary Mon as Jar Jar - Oh yes! That gets my vote.

@ 3362 RobM2
Nyn gets lots of points in my book because she stays with Rand knowing that he needs her a lot more than Lan. Yet she longs to be with Lan. Duty heavy as a mountain. I can’t help but contrast that with the huge angst of Perrin who can’t make any decision without going on and on and on about Faile. That drives me nuts.

@ 3375 pattack
Maybe you need to find a forum where you are appreciated, pattack. I, for one, certainly don’t appreciate your attitude.
john massey
3378. subwoofer
@Pattack- ? Obviously I must of missed a comment or something somewhere because that completely came out of the blue. That, or my ability to read between the lines has greatly diminished. Dude, it's just a blog, no need to get so hot under the collar about things;) I hope you handle things in the real world a little more relaxed. Sorry, but I was putzing along rereading some blogs whistling to self then Wham! Pattack goes postal and takes everyone out. Perhaps saving some comments for people's in box, or on the other hand, calming down.

In my past on earlier threads, I have posted things that I regret. Once it is out there, it is out there. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. My life goes on, but I hope you get a handle on your anger, life is too short to live with that kind of hate.

WoT related, was thinking about time travel. RJ made it possible. The portal stones put Rand &Co ahead of other world events, they may also move around time, different plausible sequences re Verin's explanation. Everyone experienced all these other worlds and possibilities when Rand tried to channel. This then begs the question- if these places do exist, is it possible to Travel to them? And can a person weave to an alternate time and change things? And though people had a viewing of these times, is it possible to exist in these other realities? Does changing them change things elsewhere.

Gahhhhhhhhhhh! I think this is what Free meant when he didn't want to get too into this. Mind is boggling now.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Woof™.
Alice A
3379. Wetlandernw
dozburger1 @3364 - The DO did not break free in the AoL. I'm not sure what your thinking is, but some of the implications (not sure if you meant this or not) need to be clarified. First, the Bore was a hole in the DO's prison, which allowed him to affect the world but did not free him completely. The Sharom was essentially a research lab (not the DO's prison), and as the location of the experiment that resulted in the Bore, it was destroyed in the backlash (the section you quoted from Rhuidean). LTT's original plan to seal the Bore was to place the Seals with a combination of saidin and saidar, but they were only able to use saidin because of the Fateful Concord where the women all refused to cooperate with LTT.

Other than that, it's an interesting theory. For myself, I think that its more "personal" than that; i.e. the DO, like the Creator, is a person (not to be confused with a human!) rather than a force or concept, and the restraint on him is more than the presence of order. But that's just my view, and we'll have to RAFO what form the re-imprisoning will take. Not that we can't have fun speculating, though. ;)

Amalisa @3372 - I like the theory on imprisoning the DO in TAR... I'd not thought of the conversation you quoted in the context of defeating the DO. Definitely worthy of more thought!

Adrian Sedai @3373 - Like you, I never found it particularly surprising that Galad joined the Whitecloaks (at least I think you said that...). It makes total sense. However, understanding him doesn't make me really like him any better, and I personally never felt particularly moved to defend him. I don't hate him, by any means, but (speaking only for myself) having someone jump up and down and call him names leaves me relatively unmoved. More interesting things to think about in TGS. And with a few exceptions, the newer folks jumping on and letting fly with their personal likes and dislikes hasn't been all that interesting (again speaking personally). Those who have been on here for the last 11 months (or a significant portion thereof) had most of the discussions about who we like and hate, and why, and lots more (!!) during the course of the reread, and most of us aren't particularly interested in rehashing it all. Especially not with all the other goodies available.

FWIW, I really hope we get to see the Galad-Morgase reunion. They do love each other, very much, and always have. Morgase had to force herself to seem disinterested, playing on the expectation that since he was "only her stepson" she wouldn't love him as much as Elayne & Gawyn. As for Galad, he expected to die in defense of her honor, which speaks for itself.

Oh, and Tektonica @3374, Morgase already knows Galad is a Whitecloak:
Morgase kept her face smooth with difficulty. Niall's news last evening, during one of his surprise visits, had come as a shock. Galad a Whitecloak! At least he was safe, so Niall said. But assuredly he would be part of her escort when she returned to Andor at the head of an army of the Children.

No, Galad was no more safe than Elayne or Gawyn. Perhaps less. The Light send that Elayne was secure in the White Tower. The Light send that Gawyn was alive; Niall claimed not to know where he was, except that he was not in Tar Valon. Galad was a knife to her throat. Niall would never be so crude as to even suggest it, but one simple order from him could send Galad where he would surely die. The one protection he had was that Niall might think she did not care as much for him as for Elayne and Gawyn.

- Lord of Chaos, Chapter 9


pattack@3375 - Get over it. You actually had a good comment or two way up there somewhere, and those are always welcome, but this kind of trash is a waste of space. Stuff it.

Amalisa @ 3376 - LOL!!
Wilson Grooms
3380. Planeswalker
reNynaeve,

Its obvious that Nynaeve is the only AS (except Moiraine) that now understands Rand should not be guided... but supported. That's why even though i heart Egwene during TGS she still thinks Rand should be brought down and guided by the White Tower. Too proud to notice their lack of insight. As for Nynaeve she slowly gets what Moiraine got all those days trying to manipulate Rand's actions.

you know what? i am too excited to know how the very first meeting of Cads and Moiraine will go. Very much like (Cads vs Tam - winner: Tam) or (Cads vs Sorilea - winner: tie)... let me know how you guys think their meeting will go? I bet Cads will defer to Moiraine but still calling her 'girl'. :p
john massey
3381. subwoofer
Does imprisoning the DO in T'AR give him reign over dreams or nightmares? Sort of like a WoT Freddy Krueger? And the DO did use dreams to try to bring Rand, Mat and Perrin to the Dark Side... it seems like the easiest for the DO to access people and speak with them short of them coming over for tea. I dunno if imprisoning the guy in a place where he can get to everyone would be a safe idea.
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. -Albert Einstein


Woof™.
Thomas Keith
3382. insectoid
"No blasters! No blasters!"

Seriously, though, pattack, please keep your flames to yourself, okay?
Wilson Grooms
3383. Planeswalker
rePattack,

Seriously though, i find some of the peeps here not GURUish as they claim or as others say they are (they even bow!). but respect other people's opinion so as for them to respect yours. you don't have to basically agree with them (see Cads and Tam). they may not be right sometimes. but at least they don't flame you. when Free mentioned he doesn't care a wit about you. you should just have said the same thing to him too. and not flame everyone here. who knows really, we do have a LIFE. and it may just be even better than yours. :)


reTimeTravel, paradox, God, etc,

i really wanted to say something about this. but reading flames here in our post just ruined my mood to reply. maybe later. and oh, God exists. take what you will of it. :)
Wilson Grooms
3384. dozburger1
Wetlandernw @ 3379
Thanks for the interpretation – I have to admit that the scene Rand witnesses (by proxy) is still very confusing for me. I think I’m assuming that the Dark One was partly free. Here’s my super-general and thus almost completely useless theory on the subject.

One Way to Imprison the Dark One Theory
For the Dark One to be completely imprisoned, the Pattern must achieve a state of complete order for at least a single instant.

Simple Explanation
If the Pattern was completely ordered then no chaos would be present. The Dark One is chaos. Thus he would, as a consequence, be removed from the Pattern. If he was removed from the Pattern he would not be able to touch it. Hence he would be imprisoned. Sounds vague and unachievable, I know, but...

More Detailed Explanation
If the Dark One was completely free he would win immediately. Or maybe if he had won, he would be completely free.
It seems that he was partly free when the Bore was drilled, and by ‘free’ I mean that he could directly influence the Pattern – witness the increase in chaos and disorder that followed his partial freedom.
What stopped him from achieving complete freedom when the Bore was drilled? It seems to me that the Pattern itself continued to prevent his complete escape. And more, the state of the Pattern was very important – that state itself prevented him from achieving complete freedom.
So perhaps the Pattern can reach a state where the Dark One is completely free – presumably when the Pattern is in complete chaos?
And as a contrapositive - the Pattern can reach a state where the Dark One is completely imprisoned. This state would be total order (whatever that looks like!)

All this leads me to the theory above, but that’s just my take...

Of course, there’s probably a number of ways in which the Dark One can be re-imprisoned, as you say, let’s RAFO :)
Jacy Clark
3385. Amalisa
subwoofer@3381

I don't think it would be imprisoning the DO in T'a'r.

Verin's statement is that T'a'r is the only other thing - besides the Creator and the DO - that exists everywhere. Remember that what happens there is permanent. So if Rand/Nynaeve/Egwene/Perrin/any others or any combination of the foregoing went to T'a'r, reworked the Seals or focused Callandor or whatever it is they're going to do there, it would have a permanence that maybe wouldn't exist otherwise. The DO would either be destroyed or still imprisoned in Shayol Ghul (someone said waaay up the thread that it's unlikely the DO would be destroyed because evil can't be destroyed. I agree; it can only be overcome.) Think of it like this: Tel'aran'rhiod would be the battleground, the theatre of operations. Needless to say, there would still be mucho fighting in the real world - as a necessary diversion to allow the real combatant(s) to get close enough for the killing/imprisoning blow. (Hello. Yet another WoT/LoTR parallel. Not that I have a problem with the parallels.)

Anyway... my theory track record isn't the greatest in the world so I'll just bow to the inevitable when something comes along to blow it all to Shayol Ghul and back. However, eternal optimism compels me to keep trying. Blind squirrel and all that... :D

Insectoid@3382 - *lol*
Tricia Irish
3386. Tektonica
This took forever to load on my new, fast mac. It was pretty fast until today. (Just reporting, not bragging.) Therefore, I'm very glad Leigh will be back with us tomorrow to start a new thread!

It's been fun here in the bunker. Thanks all for great new theories, insights, and teaching me how to navigate this site. (Still more to learn, I know.)

My last read through of the books on my own has to have been a couple of years ago, and I've forgotten many details. You all are filling in the holes in my brain and reigniting my love for the series. You've turned me onto lots of new research sources too....not to mention breakfast, cookies and movies .....but we've got to do something about that new maid.

Although it was pretty scary to jump in here with the guru's, and there are gurus!, it's been fairly painless. Someone on here needs to learn laughter and tears.....at least laughter.

Really liked today's discussions of time travel, Tel'aranroid as battleground, Nynaeve and Galad. Hope they continue in the rereads, or somewhere!

Signing off of this one. See you on the flip side.
Alice A
3387. Wetlandernw
subwoofer @3381 - I won't speak for the originator of the idea, but I was thinking of it differently. You're quite right that confining the DO to TAR, and letting him have the run of the place, would be a horrible thing. (Worse than turning Elaiffa loose in the bunker without her a'dam!) I was reading it that certain members of Team Light, working together in TAR, could (possibly) reseal the DO's prison from there rather than from the "real world." It would add a certain extra usefulness to their previous adventures in (and resultant control of) TAR, wouldn't it?

Planeswalker @3383 - well said. Few of us claim the title "guru" except tongue in cheek - in truth, there are only a few here who can claim anything like it with authority. Well, really, Maria and Wilson are the only authoritative voices I've seen here; AFAIK Harriet, Alan and Brandon have not posted here, or at least have not made themselves known if they did. There are several others who, like Leigh, have documented hours (weeks, months, years!) of researching, compiling, sorting, massaging and otherwise working with the mass of information obtained not only from the books, but also from conversations, blogs, emails and whatever other sources they could find. (A non-exhaustive list of contributors to those efforts that I've caught here, in no particular order: Linda, Richard B., Richard F., Maia, Jason, Evan, Sydo and... rats, I know I've seen some more. Sorry, I don't mean to exclude the rest - you know who you are. I just went blank.) They could claim a certain authority, if they wished, but mostly don't bother; they just post their opinions like the rest of us and enjoy the discussion.

Those of us who have been (as I said, mostly tongue in cheek) dubbed "gurus" by the group are primarily drawing on our extensive re-reads and our familiarity with the work of those others to answer questions or, in some cases, point out the fallacies of certain arguments. We are also, in general, fairly opinionated folks who aren't afraid to express those opinions but usually have some pretty fair evidence before coming on too strong. So... I suppose it's to be expected that when we (and I mean all of us) play our usual roles, some new people who don't know those roles will take exception to what we say. (For example, some time back a new user was offended by a smart remark jamesedjones made... but only until he realized that you have to take ANY jej remark as a joke until you're sure it's not; that's his role here.)

That said, I do find it irritating when some newbie comes in and starts calling names when he has no history and no familiarity with the personalities already established here. Most of you are perfectly capable of taking (for example) Freelancer's or my opinions for exactly what they're worth: informed opinions. You might or might not agree, and we might have a multi-post debate because you also have informed opinions, but we don't call each other names or fling accusations at each other.

Oh well. Those who get it, stay and integrate (and are welcomed); those who don't get it, eventually get too offended when no one appreciates their obvious superiority and go away (and no one grieves their departure).

Sorry about the wall-o-text... I'm rambling.

Amalisa @3385 - Well, I spent so much time composing my wot that you already answered subwoofer's comment. Let me just say that as looney theories go, it's far from the looniest I've heard. Given the evidence we have to go on, there's certainly no reason I know of that it couldn't be the real deal. (Rats. I just looked up the passage you referenced, and it's in book 3. For a minute there, I wondered if you'd come up with The Big Clue!) Still, it fits a lot of different things, not least Verin's comment that "the Last Battle will be fought differently than Rand expects" or whatever she said. Good thoughts!!
Wilson Grooms
3388. Adrian Sedai
Wetlander @3379
sorry if I gave the impression that I was expecting Galad to join the whitecloaks, it was a surprise for me. We had only seen them as a corrupt organisation using their powers to subjugate and control people. For Galad to join them seemed to be a bit contrary to the way he walked through the world. Obviously there has been a lot going on with them since and it gradually became obvious to me where RJ was heading as he wrote them.

and thanks for the passage about Morgase and Niall. i had completely forgotten that scene. At the time of reading I was more annoyed than anything else that RJ had chosen to include yet another diverging plot instead of concentrating on what I considered to be the main story. Of course, the whole series is a masterclass in world building, and the detail of different stories is one of the things that makes the whole place come alive, but at the time I just wanted to give him a slap and scream a lot at his habit of going off on a tangent :)


Amalisa @3376
Something tells me this whole thread is going to end up longer than the entire Memory of light trilogy. Thanks for telling us the page count, no wonder it takes people so long to catch up!!
Jay Dauro
3389. J.Dauro
OK Adrian Sedai and Amalisa, you did inspire me a bit.

By my copy to Word, this post so far has 544,526 words.

Or to look at it another way, it's almost twice the length of TGS. (OK, the count includes the housekeeping on each post. And the double posts. But still, that's a lot of words.)

Who says we are not productive (I've seen the Treat Table.)
Wilson Grooms
3390. Adrian Sedai
lol J.Dauro @3389.

If its taken us this short space of time to come up with half a million pages, how come Brandon is dragging his feet on the last 2 books? He's supposed to be a terribly prolific writer capable of turning out an amazing number of words a day. doesn't he know how many people are holding their breath waiting to see how it all turns out? barbara Cartland could churn out up to three books a day, so for someone more talented like Brandon 2 a day shouldn't be a problem!!

Or am i thinking infinite number of monkeys syndrome again?

And if Leigh went mad over a thread with a mere 800 posts, imagine how she's going to react to nearly 3500? Good job she hates spanking. It'll be off to the naughty corner and no jaffa cakes for the lot of us, I can see it....
Rob Munnelly
3391. RobMRobM
3389. JD - I bow before your greatness. Technology is so cool.
craig thrift
3392. gagecreedlives
Tektonica

I for one would love to hang around Galad. The most beautiful man in the cosmos is sure to leave a string of broken hearted ladies that would need a shoulder to cry on.

And obviously Ive missed something along the way. Where did that pattack attack come from?

*edit* And what under the light is a jaffa cake?
john massey
3393. subwoofer
@Wet & Ama- thanks- was thinking about the theories much- Pretty much all I do on my walks with Lucy other than-please don't fall, please don't fall.

Yes I do see the parallel to LotR again- back to my Lan saying "for Frodo" comment wayyyyy back when people were complaining that Lan would be Trolloc fodder. It would be good that there would be all these major skirmishes- Lan, Aiel, Bashere and Asha'man, the White Tower at some point, Mat and the Band etc. And the real battle with the DO goes on beyond all this. Maybe another battle in the clouds with the ebb and flow going with the Dragon vs. the DO beating on each other.

And let us not forget the Heroes of the Horn. They are coming for the Last Battle too. At some point Mat is going to have to get his hands on the Horn again. I forget where that buggered off to. Did Fain get his hands on it again?

Anyways the T'AR idea is growing on me. There has to be a reason for the whole tripod analogy. There also has to be a reason for Perrin to be so strong a Dreamer, and the whole "Wolf Dream" thing. Hopper saying that Young Bull is too strongly here, and that Perrin should let go and run with him. I think that is very important in the upcoming books. The whole battle with the Dark One, the wolves have always done their part and sacrificed themselves willingly because they get the importance of what is going on.

Maybe the wolves join in the fight in T’AR. Mat general’s the forces in the real world and Rand has Perrin guide him through the dreams. It has been said that Rand will not succeed without Perrin at his side, or some such, maybe this is where that was headed?

At the very least, Perrin’s wolf dreams keeps the DO at bay for some reason. Perrin is also stronger in the dream and can do more. Look at how he saved Faile. I am thinking that Perrin would be much more effective in the dream world than buggering around in WoT reality. Not to mention the reaction that Moggy had when Rand was fighting Rahvin in the flesh in T’AR. Team those two up in the Wolf Dream and I think that there is potential. Maybe it is just my canine instincts kicking in. Maybe it is all a wolf dream...

Woof™.
craig thrift
3394. gagecreedlives
Subwoofer

Siuan has hidden the horn somewhere that only her and Verin know. So Fain thank Christ hasnt gotten his hands on it.
Wilson Grooms
3395. Planeswalker
@Wetlandernw,

Ah, a guruish reply. :) i kid!
you missed two other authoritative people though, especially here in TOR: pablo and tori. though they don't reply much... they just balefire your texts... and kaboom, your post is gone!

There. now i feel like replying to these crazy topics. i tell you. CRAZYYYYY topics!

Now, as for timetravel. here's what i think. it isn't as linear as we think. like in WoT universe, parallel universes do exist. when you timetravel, you didn't just go back in time. you also get to create a new space. meaning: if tiger went back in 2007 (by timetravelling) to undo his 'alleged' affairs, he also created a new alternate reality... wherein he didn't. its a new universe (no.2) all by itself. in this one, he may want to still have an affair, but particularly be much more discreet than ever or avoid the incident with his wife, however he may want to play this out. confusing eh? see below:

ORIGINAL UNIVERSE: tiger w/ affair
ALTERNATE UNIVERSE 1: tiger w/o affair
ALTERNATE UNIVERSE 2: tiger w/o affair but the tiger in this world is knowledgeable about 'original universe' events until 2009

This perspective of multi-universe actually resolves the problem of having paradoxes. That's it for now. I want to explain more but seriously, why do we discuss this? The DO doesn't even give a damn care. ahahaha
Wilson Grooms
3396. Adrian Sedai
Gagecreedlives @3392

The US has its own unique cookies and cakes, and so does Britain. A Jaffa cake is a small, flat, round sponge cake with a dollop of orange preserve in the middle covered in a thick layer of chocolate. Sold in packets or tubes, they are delicious when first opened but the sponge dries out if left exposed for too long so the whole packet must be eaten in one sitting for to do otherwise is a sin against nature.....

My sister believes that you can eat one and reseal the pack, but I think thats all the evidence I need to prove she's a witch and in league with the dark one!!

And I just found out that there is a wikipedia entry for them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_cake
Wilson Grooms
3397. Planeswalker
gagecreedlives

i think sub just wanted to imply that verin and siuan may have hidden the horn inside the tower (where else could they think of a better place?). and last we know, a) Fain was inside WT, and b) Fain is somehow linked to the dagger (which for sometime is hidden with the Horn). Fain now has the dagger. If he found the dagger, and the horn was by chance somewhere beside it. Then Fain may have it too.

Another one of those looney theories. but plausible.

PS. what is it with cakes and puddings in the yuletide season? does suffa know how to bake them in the bunker? wait... do damanes get commanded to cook too?
craig thrift
3398. gagecreedlives
Thank you Adrian Sedai.

Sounds like something I will hunt down next time Im in the States. And dont worry eating large amounts of food in relative short periods of time is a specialty of mine

Planeswalker

That could of been what he meant. Wouldnt be the first time I misinterpreted something. However the horn wasnt hidden with the dagger. After Fain finds the dagger and has a confrontation with Alviarin he thinks to himself that he has to leave and doesnt have time to find the horn.
Ron Garrison
3399. Man-0-Manetheran
Planeswalker: Suffalaida can't even boil water without the One Power, and we know she can't do that without her Sul'dam's permission. If you think I'm eating her cookies, you're crazy!! ;-)

Tektonica: I've discovered that this page opens in Firefox for Mac about 5 times as fast as Safari.
R B
3400. MasterAlThor
So I am just catching up with all this and whoa....

The time travel thing. I am a learned person but I don't even want to talk about that.

Pattack....
Why do you think that we do not respect your opinions? Did you do something to make that true?

Sub, Fife, myself and others are always saying silly things. Everyone loves us.

I don't need to come to the defense of Free but I will cause he has earned my resepect. Freelancer is a very intellegent and wise person, to blame his whole generation for our current problems is acenine. My generation didn't come along and make things better and neither did the group behind us.

Seriously, we all respect the thought and views of others, even when we don't agree with them. Why blast anyone for not agreeing?

Yes, it is kinda like NATO around here, but that is what makes it great. We are kinda like a click, but I like to think of us more like a family. You have members who get along and ones who don't. If you don't want to get along, that's ok, we will still accept you and what you bring to the table.

Just one thing, don't insult the bunker. R.Fife worked hard on it and we worked just as hard to take it from him. Plans are already underway to take the new one.(That's right Fife, you can't have nuttin to yourself)

Pattack, I have read some of your post. You make some valid points in some of the stuff in the reread. You are a smart guy/girl. Take it down a 1000 come back tomorrow and post away. We will still read and comment on what you have to say.

This is Grey Ajah territory so I will bow out now as I would wear a Brown shaw.
Barry T
3401. blindillusion
Just wanted to chime in and say Syfy produces some odd remakes of old stories. I enjoyed Tin Man and so far Alice isn't too bad.

But it always makes me wonder if, along with the theatrical release of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and the soon to come Alice in Wonderland, there is ever going to be a new major motion picture release of the Wizard of Oz. Not that I'm saying there should be, but it's something I've been expecting for years.

And, much like Tektonica, I believe I'm going to sign-off on this thread. This is probably close to my 200th post on it. I suppose I've contributed enough to the insanity. I hope to see everyone on Leigh's shiny new thread tomorrow.

~Blind

~~MAT@3400 ~ Couldn't agree more

~~~Err ~ Post# 157...But who's counting, right?
Wilson Grooms
3402. Silvertip
I also will join Tektonica in thanking everybody on this thread, guru and newby alike, for a really interesting and (almost) uniformly respectful discussion. WoT and this site really seem to have attracted a higher class of discussers (sic?) than you typically find. You all have enriched the book for me in a real way, and I'm grateful.

@Amalisa 3385, that was me waaaay up there :nods:, although I don't think I was the only one.

And I hadn't considered it before, but (like subwoofer) I find the idea of an important role for TAR in the final confrontation to be growing on me. As has been said, what happens there connects to all the worlds, so if the DO has to be defeated throughout the multiverse ... uh-oh, my head is getting ready to explode again.

The Light shine upon you all,

S

p.s. I still think Semirhage was set up.
Wilson Grooms
3403. Aye Aye Sedai
pattack@3375 - WTF - mate??? This seems like harsh comments out of left field - by and large this has been a very social and accommodating community - unlike others that I have been on and trolled. May have missed a posting or two out of the 3000 (and counting) - and based on your nasty post I would not be surprised if you never read this - but your whole post was out of line for this forum and that type of post is specifically which causes newcombers to quake and fear posting anything. If you have ideas - please post - certainly beats the discussions on what DVDs to watch while in the bunker ( where we should be reading WOT - nynah - hmph)


Back to the WOT - so did we decide that Balefire is like a giant Moon Moth ( reference anyone?) that will chew up a particular thread - once that thread is gone then any subsequent action that relies upon/interacts with said thread is moot. So I agree that the BFing of the BFer does not UNBF the BFed. (say that 5 times fast)

But why was it important for the DO to release BF - as we know that Moirane and Rand know of it. Supposedly Taim doesn't but the 13 BA took the black rod of BF.

Also if Rand needed the CKal to BF Grendal's Place - how in the Wheel did they destroy whole cities with BF in the Age of Legend? Esp if Rand is much much more powerful and the CK were not at everyones fingertips for use.

Discuss
Wilson Grooms
3404. saptio
linking? circles can go up to around 60 iirc. That would have to be almost as powerful as the CK wielded by one man no matter how strong.
Alice A
3405. Wetlandernw
Adrian Sedai @3390 - ROFL!! Barbara Cartland, indeed!

subwoofer @3393 - you give me an idea...We all know the wolves are important to TG. What if they start out attacking Trollocs, maybe at Tarwin's Gap, and as they are killed left and right, they pop into TAR where they promptly join into the battle against the DO & minions there. Not sure exactly what they'd be doing, but if nothing else a wolf pack could be extremely distracting for any of the FS who are trying to be cunning in TAR. And I think you're right that Perrin's strength in TAR will have some significance in the big whoop-de-do. Especially if we're right that the showdown with the DO happens in TAR.

@several - No, Fain does not have the Horn. In The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 19, "Memories", he thinks to himself "No time to find the Horn of Valere now" and he's out of the Tower and off the island before sunrise. With the dagger, without the Horn. I know gagecreedlives already said that, but if you want the reference, there it is. :)

Aye Aye Sedai @3403 - Re: balefire in the AOL. Just a thought, with no actual proof (or none that I've got the oomph to go find), I'm guessing that during the War of the Shadow, a fair bit of the fighting (on both sides) was done with linked men & women, as well as a variety of angreal and ter'angreal. Granted none of the *greals would have been at the level of the CK, but a linked circle can increase the power levels a fair bit. And we know that both sides used balefire freely until they realized what effect it was having on the Pattern.

And hey, what's with people signing off? We'll never make 3500 if the most prolific posters go away... Then again, that might be a good thing. I guess if I were serious about reaching 3500, I could have been making separate posts out of the comments to each individual...

Or not.

Hey, there's a new post coming tomorrow!! Not sure when I'll get to it - probably 500 posts into it, at the rate people have been twitching on here. Oh well.
Wilson Grooms
3406. alreadymadwithbigbalefire
Aye Aye Sedai @3403
They had more channelers willing to use it then. Either several firing individually at something, or linked in a circle.
And about releasing Balefire... Paradox = Chaos
Wilson Grooms
3407. Planeswalker
From what has been said, hmmm, well i guess Fain doesn't have the horn. Can't wait then about Verin's letter to Mat. *expecting for it to be an additional Verin's MOAness...

So where do you guys think the horn is then? Caemlyn? Andor? Must be in Tar Valon based from what Fain said last...
a a-p
3409. lostinshadow
Ok wow - amazing how far behind a person can lag because of a postal strike and a nasty bout of the flu.

but all is well now and I have finally gotten and read GS.

so before I read everybody else's comments (all 3407 of them actuall 3408 with Leigh's) I wanted to get out my own untainted personal reaction.

Bravo Brandon Bravo

I really enjoyed that, maybe I'll note the differences from RJ after the 3rd or 4th reading but I was too lost in the telling to care.

Ok, now back to actually reading what people have been saying
T C
3410. Freelancer
tacoma@3350

I wondered how long it would be before someone asked your question, how would we know if our past had been changed. Of course we cannot, but if time travel were viable in such a way, I daresay that the actions of certain historical figures would not be in our histories:

Nebuchadnezzar
Pot Pot
Mao
Stalin
Robespierre
Hitler
etc.

Of course the argument would continue with something along the lines that perhaps events far worse than those committed by these men had already been erased. But you see, given time travel, the moment one atrocity is removed, the histories would report only what events had now occured, after which the most significant atrocities then known would be the ones dealt with. The philosophical games can be played all day by both sides, and nobody who has once chosen a side will ever be satisfied by the arguments of the other, so I leave it there.

I am curious about the [sic] employed where you quoted me, following the word miniscule. It suggests that either I misspelled the word, or misapplied it. I'm aware that the more arcane spelling of minuscule is considered by some few to be the only correct one, but in fact the spelling in most common usage today, not just colloquially but even in reference material, is the one I used. Perhaps this is not true in the UK, but in the U.S. it is, and that's where I am.

As to the point of discussion, time dilation due to an enhanced velocity of travel through space is distinctly not time travel. It does not allow the leaping forward or reversing of one's position in time. An astronaut who orbits the Earth at 50,000 nm/h will have aged less than if he had sat in his living room for the same number of hours. But his location in space is knowable throughout the journey to those outside of his high-velocity bubble, he doesn't "wink out" of time in one place to show up in another at a later hour/day/week/year. And even were I to concede that it was a micro-example of time travel, it accomplishes nothing of the intended desire of time travel, either to leap into the future, or revisit the past, and is effectively pointless on that score.
...and our mental capacities are just too limited to really comprehend time motion at all.

I believe that you have this backwards. We certainly perceive time motion. What we are incapable of properly conceptualizing is a reality which does not have time as a dimension. Usually, a person's first attempt to consider this produces the image of everything standing still. This is because our thoughts always include a temporal tense, so that if we are thinking of no time, then we are thinking of no motion. But there is an existence outside of time; in fact there are two. And the reason why we are bound within the dimension of time, the reason why we cannot ever succeed in breaking from the linear passage of time during this existence, is the most significant reason for our existence.


Tektonika@3351

How humans have chosen to measure time, slicing it into seconds, minutes, years, is our construct. Time's existence, and it's linear passage from a beggining to an end, those are God's constructs.


Amalisa@3372

Ahh, well done. I'm always amused by those who think that this or that bit of the plots were a lack of planning on Robert Jordan's part. I am more convinced than ever that his planning was thorough beyond belief. Through completely different avenues, three of our Two Rivers heroes are able to enter T'a'R unaided. To add to your thoughts, we know that wolves will fight in the Last Battle, and we also know that wolves walk T'a'R at will.

Pre-post addendum: I see that others have taken on this position as well. I've pondered it since I realized that Egwene, Perrin, and Rand each visited T'a'R unintentionally.


Adrian Sedai@3373

Galad actually gets more good press of late than Gawyn, which I feel is backwards. They have both made bad choices for seemingly good reasons. The difference in them is defined quite well by Egwene in TGS after she is reunited with Gawyn. Gawyn cares about things truly, where Galad cares only in what is right.


subwoofer@3381

The DO did not do anything with the dreams of our Ta'Veren Tripod, that I recall. It was Ishamael and Lanfear who came to them.


dozburger1@3384

A good conceptual theory, I believe. However, as long as beings with free will exist, able to make choices, there will never be an instant of complete order. Plenty of evidence to that right here of late.


subwoofer@3393

The Horn is hidden in or near the White Tower somewhere. Only Siuan and Verin knew where. Had it been in the same storeroom as the Shadar Logoth dagger, Fain would have grabbed it then.


Planeswalker@3395

Well, Pablo is certainly not a WoT guru, as he is just now enjoying the books for the first time.

To me, the multiverse theories are philosophical pablum, designed to allow discussion of time travel while neatly pushing aside the unavoidable paradoxes by having them cause "new realities". That, and just another way in which men try to usurp the power of God.


Aye Aye Sedai@3403

We know that during the War of Power, there were male and female channelers on both sides. So, the answer to how they BF'd whole cities is linked circles. Also, we don't know for sure that Taim doesn't know Balefire, only that he denied knowing it when Rand asked. Pre-post addendum: several folks got this thought in while I was composing this novella
Thomas Keith
3411. insectoid
Hmm. It seems that the thread loads twice as fast when I'm logged off, despite the fact that I moved to Firefox. When I log in is when it decides to crawl, get fatal errors, etc.

Firefox also likes to check my spelling. Grr.

I sort of doubt it'll get to 3500 before Leigh's post tomorrow. However it may reach that point eventually.

J.Dauro @3389: That must be an enormous Word file. 10 to 20MB maybe?

Adrian Sedai @3390: Yeah, probably the infinite monkeys thing. Although, while they may in time be able to produce Shakespeare, would they be able to produce something as detailed as WoT?

Free @3410: Nice wall o' text. BTW I finished Homeland the other day and am reading Exile now. I like them so far (though they are sorta dark).
Wilson Grooms
3412. Planeswalker
@Free

I was talking about people with authority here in this forum (TOR admins)...

Anyways... multiverse theory is a philosophical pablum? Really???

Now, I guess we wouldn't care much about all these naive philosopical idiots explaining this in studies, researches, and other lits.

Multiverse wiki
Many-worlds wiki
Multiverse study

Ok. I won't go on defending this crap as you may call it. :) And oh, its actually not trying to usurp God's power... we actually have a term for this:
Ontology wiki
Ontological Argument

PS. oh and guys, im not rickrolling the links above. not my style. yet. although, you're in for some headdesking if you can't stand philosophical ideologies... really... ***headdesking***
Wilson Grooms
3413. Planeswalker
ooops. let me just follow it up that i was trying to defend the idea of multiverse theories and ontological argument above as not only a simpleton's excuse for unreasonable things we've discussed earlier.

I found that my post defended the idea too much that i may offend Free or anyone. i was trying to reason out if that's a good excuse. :)hehehe

Believe me, i studied philosophy and discussed much of these things for quite a while. and i really mean quite a while...

Let's get back on track to WoT. Leigh's post should be up in a few hours now...
Jay Dauro
3414. J.Dauro
insectoid @3411

Nope. 1.5 MB as a docx

It's only ~6.5 MB here as an HTML page.
Rob Munnelly
3415. RobMRobM
Re the discussion of battles in TAR, it was a theory of someone (don't recall who) from near the outset of this re-read that Rand would fight the One Power battle, Mat would fight the conventional military battle, and Perrin would lead the battle in TAR. Could happen. R
Rob Munnelly
3416. RobMRobM
Twitch.

P.s. *cricket chirping noise* on this post. C'mon peoples, let's show Leigh some energy before the post comes out. How bout we predict the jokes Leigh will make? I'll start: I bet that the phrase "Suffa is a good damane" will be used at least once.
john massey
3417. subwoofer
Day 4 or 5 of El Blizzardo Diablo er, to quote Letterman.-18F here and dropping. Something about monkeys and brass balls... Gilligan where's the coconuts?

Hmmmmmmmm?

Where was I? Oh yes, fighting etc. First off, welcome lostinshadow. Come on in, we're forming a Polar Bear Club. um... balefire etc.- was thinking that the Forsaken do not like the idea of linking or sharing control/ giving control with others so I do not see that happening for razing cities. Am more thinking that there were some toys with serious juju used and lost in the Breaking. Maybe even a balefire angreal.

Also was pondering the dream thing re Free's response. Yes Lanfear and I believe Demandred buggered with Rand and Mat and Perrin's mind, but I also think the DO was speaking directly to Rand at one point. Join me and you will be Na'bubby or something First among all the others. I believe only the DO would offer that to Rand, not any of the Forsaken. But I am know to be wrong. Maybe crazy from the heat, who knows? :P

Re people signing off- Remember what I said about quitters? C'mon, cowboy up- let's see this puppy through to the end. Then they will close the thread like they did #10 and we can all bask in the glory. Maybe TOR will give a prize to the last poster? Pablo? Torie? Pretty Please? With pie on top?

Woof™.
Wilson Grooms
3418. Planeswalker
Last poster? Last? Last? damn. 82 more to go... can't reach it... awww, shucks
Torie Atkinson
3420. Torie
@ pattack

Until you can treat your fellow commenters with respect, you'll just be spewing consonants.
john massey
3421. subwoofer
Psssst- Torie- what about the prize? Maybe a light up TOR dingle ball or something?

'Tis the season:)

Woof™.
Don Barkauskas
3422. bad_platypus
Planeswalker @3380:
you know what? i am too excited to know how the very first meeting of Cads and Moiraine will go. Very much like (Cads vs Tam - winner: Tam) or (Cads vs Sorilea - winner: tie)... let me know how you guys think their meeting will go? I bet Cads will defer to Moiraine but still calling her 'girl'. :p
Well, technically it won't be their first meeting, since they met in New Spring. :-) Also, I really don't see Cadusane deferring to Moiraine; she's not really that much into deferring to anyone even when she "should" (by AS rules), and she's both significantly older and significantly stronger than Moiraine.
Wilson Grooms
3423. alreadymadwithreturnedmo
Well yes. However, I do see Moiraine totally rubbing it in that Rand trusts her. She doesn't like Cads' either, and even suspects her of being Black.
Matthew Smith
3424. blocksmith
Freelancer@3325

Which QED were you using? I just googled QED and got Quantum Electrodynamics to Quickly Ends Dandruff...no joke.

Forkroot@3332

Too funny..."Don't come down here, I'm not dressed reading TGS."

Pattack@3375

You get a 1. But there is time to salvage your score. Start with some respect and polite disagreement.

Planeswalker@3395

I suggest a fourth universe for Tiger because I think he enjoyed the dalliances too much to erase them anywhere...he goes back in time 5 minutes to escape Elin's wrath before she clocked him with the 3 iron.

Freelancer@3410

On Galad...but he killed Valda, an absolute scumbag swordmaster, in a duel. That kicks him up a notch or two, easy. In that case his caring only about what was right was the right thing.

Looney Theory Time

The Horn is with the Aelfinn and Verin put it there. Mat will recover it rescueing Moiraine. Yes, it has holes (i.e., how did Verin get in with it and then get out) but it would nicely wrap up two story lines (as long as Verin's letter explains some things so no Deus Ex Machina...see I learn new things here).

And we are only about 600k bytes away from exceeding the limit...BREAK IT! BREAK it! BREAK it!

edit: added I'm for proper english:)
Tricia Irish
3425. Tektonica
OK, I'll do the cowgirl thing and do a small part to get us there.....

I know, I signed off last night, but I dumped some stuff, rebooted, and today my computer is humming along again. Maybe it was the dsl, who the *bleep* knows. Machines.

ManOMan, Thanks for the Firefox tip. I have it, but dont' use it much because I'm all warm and fuzzy with Safari...bookmarks, familiarity, etc.

Planeswalker@3412&13

Thanks for the Ontology links. I am enjoying the ongoing alternate Universe/Time travel debates, although it requires massive doses of Advil. (My philosphy studies are a very dim memory.)

Free@3410

I agree that we are incapable of comprehending a world without time, because we are here on Earth and function in linear time. IMHO, time itself, however it is curved, in however many dimensions, is still a human construct. Perhaps it is just that we lack the words and experience to describe properly what the lack of time would mean or look like.....It's just too immense and different from our reality. And frankly, I like the Mystery.

Many above: I think the Tel'Aranroid theory is VERY interesting.
Since it is within and surrounding all Universes in WOT, it would be an effective place to seal the Bore. Rand, Egs, Moraine?, link in the flesh in Tel'A, fight the Forsaken, use Calendor and seal the bore there, and/or Perrin leads the wolf army there to distract or protect them while they do it. Mat and Lan are on the ground stemming the Chaos.....

How does this fit in with Rand dying and living again? Guru's please....when you die in Tel'A, you die for real, yes? So, ummmm, how do they bring Rand back, or will Tel'A help his soul somehow transfer to Moridan, unless Mori's been balefired? Is there a way Rand could bite it in Tel'A and still be OK in the real world? Die and live again?

My head's hurting again. I wish I could remember all the details some of you seem to retain about the physics of this universe. Thoughts?
Peter Leventis
3426. PL1
Blocksmith @3424

QED used thus is "Quod erat demonstrandum".

I just saw that Leigh has posted a New Reading: COS 1. Woot!
john massey
3427. subwoofer
New post folks! ACoS!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Woof™.
Torie Atkinson
3428. Torie
Merry Christmas, WoTers! You get your wish:

A brand new thread.

This thread is officially closed, so please continue the conversation in your shiny new space. And subwoofer: the prize goes to me! I always get the last word! Mwahahaha!
This page is closed for comments.