Fri
Jul 31 2009 10:49am
The Perennial Hugos Ballyhoo

Every year, pretty much on schedule, there are, shall we say, heated disagreements about the Hugo shortlists. The novels tend to be at the forefront of such debates, but it’s not limited to them; art awards, stories of various lengths, and visual presentations aren’t free from controversy either.

Probably the saddest thing about such discussions/flame wars/dog-piling is that there’s a false dichotomy being promoted on both “sides.” I’m talking about the good old “you have poor taste and it’s your fault the Hugos suck, you schmuck” versus “you’re too elitist to simply enjoy books unless it’s something convoluted like Ulysses1, you academic” so-called debates.

To them both I say: oh grow up. The Hugo nominations aren’t the result of dumb versus smart, elitist versus down-to-earth. The fans of SF/F are yea numerous these days, and there are many sub-cultures that value sometimes vastly different things—why else do you think that an award like the Hugos settles on what may be thought of as a common denominator among many of these factions? These are books we commonly know and that are, no matter how many people like to curve their grading, actually a good cut above much of rest of the field.

Not to mention that, as the old saying goes, we contain multitudes, each one of us. I’m never going to stop being amused at those who find it incongruous that someone who loves vampire grocery store romances also loves James Joyce2, or those who can’t believe that professors of classical literature may not also obsess over Doctor Who. I think you’ll find that among individual nomination ballots, there’s quite a few oddball listings. Everyone I know prides themselves on having a wonderfully quaint, mixed tastes that others just don’t have.

It’s easy to forget that your tastes are actually personal, not objective—the results of who you are, how you grew up, who you hang out with. You can take apart any book you like and decry its lack of artfulness and meta-themes, or maybe sniff at its overly pontificating wordplay—but chances are that someone is perfectly capable of tearing apart your favorites, too, and for perfectly good reasons, at that. You don’t need a degree in literature to do this—and you don’t need to be “uncontaminated” by said study of literature either.

There’s also a lot of weird disrespect going on every which way, and somehow doesn’t take into the fact that nobody who bothers to vote in the Hugos, much less even contemplate about the Hugos, is actually stupid, filterless, or thoughtless. They have their own reasons for picking what they did—reasons you may not understand and even hate. Again, it’s culture. There are people who can analyze the intricate soap opera cycles of superhero comics with as much pizaaz as those of us who engage in mythopoeic play; there are those who can pick out the growth and development of story and character in Harry Potter as much as those who study the Golden Age classics of science fiction. Is it not enough that we fans are all, while disparate in opinion, still akin in our tendency towards taking many things as Serious Business?

Given this variety among us, even within each of us, there’s nothing wrong with an award for which “the best” has always been defined as “most popular amongst the many tribes of SF/F fandom (or at least those who bothered to vote)”? You may have traumatic memories of popularity awards in high school, but they do have their place. For when you’re talking about a group as diverse as we are, it’s an important vector to take note of and to reward. And remember that it’s never good enough—was never good enough for any of us—to simply hear about such and such a book, even if it’s free. The book has to be liked, and liked well. It’s quite difficult to write a book that crosses so many borders, which every nominee has managed, despite the throng of conflicting opinions.

Indeed, these reasons are why the Hugo nominees often cross into awards like the Nebula Awards, World Fantasy Awards, Prometheus Awards, John W. Campbell Memorial Award3, etc. etc. etc.—i.e., into territory many might consider more controlled. Juried awards are also a victim of accusations of bias towards mediocrity; I see no reason to vilify popularity awards more especially so. None of these awards, even the juried ones, serve the same purpose.

The Hugos are a valuable award. Across varied fandom there isn’t an award quite like it.

And if you want to change its course, then get a supporting membership next time. Good gods, if only there were enough of us, the price might sink down some more. 


1 I'm aware that I now owe Nick Mamatas one dollah.
2 And now I owe him two dollahs and possibly some change via Paypal.
3 Not associated with Worldcon. That would be the John Campbell Award for Best New Writer.

Note on image used: a combination of Blue Skies, © jurvetson, and Night Sky, © coda. Both are licensed for commercial use (Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic).


Arachne Jericho writes about science fiction, fantasy and other topics determined by 1d20, at Spontaneous ∂erivation. She also thinks waaay too much about Sherlock Holmes. You can read about her faux-literary schmoo tastes at Tor.com on a semi-biweekly basis.

50 comments
Sam Voy
1. Sam Voy
This starts out as a sensible, balanced call to order, but rapidly lands squarely on one side of the debate, without any argument. You say 'It’s easy to forget that your tastes are actually personal, not objective'. But this is exactly what the 'elitists' and 'academics' are denying: we're saying that there are real, objective standards of literary quality (however fuzzy-edged, contested, etc.). That's obviously controversial, but it's not enough to respond with 'oh no there aren't'. NB I'm not expressing any particular view about the Hugo shortlist this year - I haven't read enough of them to comment. I'm addressing the more general claim about quality.
Sam Voy
2. Nick Mamatas
I doubt most contemporary academics, enamored as they are with the postmodern condition, are ready to argue that there are "objective" standards of literary quality.

They are arguing for the superiority of some readers over others, not some objective standard of quality of books.
James Goetsch
3. Jedikalos
Ah, if only we could all chill out and have a beer with the Prez.
Sam Voy
4. Sam Voy
Nick:

(1) I don't know which 'contemporary academics' you mean, but I am an academic, and I'm not enamoured of the postmodern condition (whatever exactly that is). Nor are any of my colleagues that I know of.

(2) I'm arguing that some readers are better at reading than others. That doesn't mean we're better or more important people, it just means that we're better at discovering the qualities of what we read. We get that way by long practice and conversation. Writing obviously gets better with practice. Why wouldn't reading?
Sam Voy
5. Nick Mamatas
1. Sam, what sort of academic are you? Are you in an English department? Any of the humanities?

2. Writing gets better with practice? Not in some sort of uncomplicated manner, especially when looking at published writing—and unless you're sneaking into the homes of aspiring writers, we're talking published writing as most of our available sample of writing.

Feedback from the marketplace often keeps writers from improving once they've developed the ability to write publishable fiction. Many many writers satisfice and then plateau rather than improve once they publish regularly. Not only is it not "obvious" that writing gets better with practice (except for beginners), I'm hard pressed to name authors who actually do get consistently better over the course of their careers.

Reading doesn't necessarily get better with practice either, especially if one simply reads the same things or the same sorts of things over and over. In the same way, no matter how many years you spend driving to work, the corner store, and church, you'll never suddenly develop the ability to perform complicated stunts in your Volvo, nor will you be so good at driving it that you can then drive a big rig.
Sam Voy
6. Nick Mamatas
1. Sam, what sort of academic are you? Are you in an English department? Any of the humanities?

2. Writing gets better with practice? Not in some sort of uncomplicated manner, especially when looking at published writing—and unless you're sneaking into the homes of aspiring writers, we're talking published writing as most of our available sample of writing.

Feedback from the marketplace often keeps writers from improving once they've developed the ability to write publishable fiction. Many many writers satisfice and then plateau rather than improve once they publish regularly. Not only is it not "obvious" that writing gets better with practice (except for beginners), I'm hard pressed to name authors who actually do get consistently better over the course of their careers.

Reading doesn't necessarily get better with practice either, especially if one simply reads the same things or the same sorts of things over and over. In the same way, no matter how many years you spend driving to work, the corner store, and church, you'll never suddenly develop the ability to perform complicated stunts in your Volvo, nor will you be so good at driving it that you can then drive a big rig.
Sam Voy
7. Sam Voy
Nick - I'm a philosopher. But for the record, the Eng Lit academics I know aren't cheerleaders for postmodernism either.

To the point: agreed, neither writing nor reading always or in an uncomplicated manner get better with practice: I was being too simple.

But I don't need to deny your complications to make my point. All I need to say is that there's some way of practicing reading which improves one's ability to distinguish the real qualities of what one reads. It involves, amongst other things, reading widely, particularly in what's widely regarded as excellent, and talking about that reading with other people who read widely.

That means that some people do have a better - i.e. more objective - grasp than others of real differences in quality between books. And that's all that's needed to make Arachne's 'your tastes are actually personal, not objective' false (for some people, at least).

To connect this with the most recent version of the Hugo ballyhoo: Adam Roberts is a highly skilled reader, and his opinions about literary quality have some authority (not unchallengeable authority). It's not enough to say, in response to his grumbles about the 2009 Hugo shortlist, that they're just expressions of personal taste.
Daniel Abraham
8. DanielAbraham
I, like all mere mortals, fear to swim in waters where Nick Mamatas is known to feed, but here we go.

It does seem to me that reading (and writing) tends to get more particular with repetition. Not better. The more I write, the more I find the kinds of things that interest me about writing, and the more I indulge them. That seems pretty common. Sometimes, that makes people into better writers. Sometimes they wander off into a near-solipsistic kind of wizard's twilight like late-era Heinlein.

Readers, I think, get more interested in (and aware of) the things about reading that interest them. I would be willing to bet that the level of passion and care given to analyses of the Star Wars universe are similar in kind to academic wrangling over, say James Joyce. (I'm sorry. Do I owe someone a dollar?)

Sam. Understand that I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you say there are real, objective standards of literary quality, but you also say that they are fuzzy-edged and contested. I'm not sure how to reconcile those two assertions. I have an immediate skepticism of things that are real and objective but unmeasurable and resistant to definition.

It seems to me more probable that the "elite" and the "why-don't-we-call-us-The-Great-Unwashed" may simply be involved with different projects. By the standards of one project, even the best of the other is still crap, much the way the best beer in the world is still lousy iced tea.

The question then becomes which project should be the basis of critical judgment. Which is the status project. I don't see why the Hugos in particular shouldn't go right on being a measure of what the people who care enough to vote liked the most (even when *my* story doesn't win). The Hugo voters aren't all involved with the same projects that turn my crank. They are judging by different standards, and I am hard-pressed to think that mine are better than theirs on those occasions when they're different.

Even if something gives you no pleasure, it seems uncharitable to dismiss the genuine pleasure it gives to others.
Sam Voy
9. Sam Voy
Daniel - no problem with being put on the spot. It's good for me, and anyway it's more interesting than what I should be doing (and will have to get back to soon).

Maybe we mean different things by 'objective'. I mean something like this: in disputes where what's objective is involved, there are reasons to be given for an answer or answers. Consider the following example questions:

1. Is strawberry ice-cream nicer than vanilla?
2. What is 2+2?
3. What is the atomic number of gold?
4. Is the Riemann Hypothesis true?
5. Who was the greatest saxophone player of the twentieth century?
6. What was the best science fiction novel published this year?

1 is not objective - some people prefer strawberry, others vanilla, no-one is asserting anything about ice-cream other than 'its properties cause me to have certain sensations (more than do the properties of other kinds of ice-cream)'. 2 and 3 are definitely objective (I assume you'd agree?), although it takes more training to understand 3, its answer, or why that's the correct answer. 4 is objective in a rather different way: presumably there is an answer; there are complex arguments (which I don't understand) for particular answers; but we don't yet know what the answer is. 5 and 6 seem to me to be objective - i.e. to be susceptible to reasoning - in yet another way. There are reasons to be given for answers to both of them. They might include appeals to: particular structural features of pieces of music or novels; the skills of musicians or novelists; originality; influence; beauty. There are answers which plainly have a prima facie claim: 'John Coltrane' would be a disputable but not a stupid answer to 5; 'Kenny G' would get you laughed at by anyone who knows what she's talking about. But 5 and 6 are not simply analogous to 1: we're not asking just about sensations caused, we're asking about how good things are, and we can give reasons for judgements about such questions.

Much shorter Sam: 'objective' means a lot more than 'measurable'.

More briefly on other points: (a) I completely agree that there are many different ways that practice can shape writing and reading, as Nick pointed out. I just need to claim that at least one kind of reading practice leads to more precise discriminating ability. (b) I have no beef with the Hugos - they can reward whatever they please. My objection is to the claim that they couldn't do anything except reward what happened to please some people.
CE Petit
10. Jaws
IMNSHO*, Arachne's post goes all pear-shaped here:
Given this variety among us, even within each of us, there’s nothing wrong with an award for which “the best” has always been defined as “most popular amongst the many tribes of SF/F fandom (or at least those who bothered to vote)”?
Sorry, but redefining "glory" to mean "a good knock-down battle" is not going to meet anyone's needs -- unless the objective is to create a failure to communicate (yes, I know, the Warden did it on purpose, but we're not running a chain gang).

If the Hugos want to remain a popularity contest, they should call themselves "favorite," not "best"... as "best" does, itself, imply some objective measure (both generally and legally). Phhhhht!

I simultaneously try to maintain a sense of humor and ire about this. I've got them literary values myself...

* Of course my opinion is not humble. I may be only an adjunct, but I am an academic... at least by preference.
Kate Nepveu
11. katenepveu
if only there were enough of us, the price might sink down some more

I suspect pigs would fly first. (Those familiar with WSFS politics are welcome to comment.)
Sam Voy
12. Nick Mamatas
Sam: Ah, a philosopher! That explains the 'whatever exactly that is.'

I suppose the root of our disagreement is that you underestimate ice cream.

Is strawberry better than vanilla? Well, do we mean the strawberry made by the wonderful gourmet shop Christina's of Somerville MA, the even tonier Ici of Berkeley CA, the stuff extruded by Good Humor in a massive factory, the big chunky stuff I make myself, instantly, with liquid nitrogen, as a party trick? Or the stuff of pseudo-gourmet brands like Häagen-Dazs. (Ice cream for social climbers!)

As a fat guy, let me enlighten you: Christina's is it. Every Good Humor factory on Earth should be burned to the ground. The crew at Ici will escape with only a few slaps across their faces for their audacity, and in my lonely Saturday nights on the couch I suppose I find the Häagen-Dazs stuff more than a little comforting in its naivete, despite myself.

All things can be reasoned within a discursive community.

Roberts reads lots of SF, but is his mode of discrimination important to the Hugo-voting discursive community? What they prize and what he prizes are likely two different things.(Robert wants more experimentation it seems; Hugo voters, from the selections they make, would rather have much less of that.) There is nothing fundamentally better about either experimentation or nostalgia. Roberts is rolling his eyes and saying, "Oh dear, STRAWBERRY again? What about lavendar-sour plum ice cream with a drizzle of Amedei Porceleana chocolate? What about the traditional beetle-shell/goat milk cold cream of Chiapas! How about that guy who makes bacon ice cream!

The most particularly useful discrimination would involve a more complete understanding of what Hugo voters want. Roberts doesn't seem to have that; he can only tsk tsk at them. In response, the Hugo voters can only trot out the usual counter-snobbery snobbery. "Oh YAH! You think yer better'n me! I'll kick yer ass!"

Same as it ever was.
Daniel Abraham
13. DanielAbraham
Looking at your 5 and 6, it seems to me (and I am not a philosopher nor particularly practiced in rigorous argument) that the problem comes in defining "best" and "greatest."

If I made the argument (and I'm making up facts here, but bear with me) that Kenny G. made more money than John Coltrane, or that he sold more albums, or that he performed in front of more and larger audiences, or even that Kenny G.'s music had a greater note-by-note consistency between performances, the issue would be with the criteria I was using. When you invoke "someone who knows what she's talking about" I think you may mean someone who already agrees with your idea of what's important about books and music.

I agree that you can have a flavor of objectivity when you have clearly stated, explicable criteria that you've chosen to judge by. I can't help feeling that the choice of criteria itself though is more the issue.

It seems to me that defining "best" as level of technical sophistication or as popularity among followers of the genre is more like the choice between vanilla and strawberry.

Your (a) objection that one kind of reading leads to a more precise discriminating ability seems to suppose that there aren't other ways of reading that allow equally precise discrimination on other criteria. For example, a friend of mine wrote a Star Wars tie-in novel, and was amazed and impressed by the expertise out there on the ability to judge fidelity to the details of previous Star Wars universe works. Having someone be able to discriminate with great precision which novels in that universe match the canon on issues like what ships have blaster bolts of what color and whether an alien's carapace spirals to the left or right doesn't seem to be what you're talking about.

Also -- and with all respect -- I'm a little bit confused by your (b) objection. Given the mechanism by which the Hugo awards are determined, anything that gets the award will by definition be chosen on the basis of what pleased some (eligible, voting) people. To do something other than that -- to award it to, for instance, a work of greater technical sophistication -- you would need to change the pool of eligible voters to one with more people who found technical sophistication pleasing, and you'd still have an award going to a book or story that happened to please some different set of people.

But maybe I'm overlooking something.

I think I'm hearing you say that the criteria you use are self-evidently the best ones. Am I understanding you correctly?
Sam Voy
14. Foxessa
Haven't read most of the Hugo nominees but I do know who will be the greatest sax player of the 21st century -- he's the son of a terrific musician friend.

In the meantime I'll vote for Lenny Picket.

And that unknown horn player on stage at the Maple Leaf one Wednesday night during Mardi Gras season back in 2005.
Sam Voy
15. Sam Voy
Nick – that’s beautifully done, and I stand corrected about ice-cream. If only I’d thought to use beer as my example instead, I’d have seen the problem (I feel about Weihenstephaner vs Stella Artois much as you do about Christina’s vs Good Humor).

To both Nick and Daniel: is the problem something like this? You can agree that literary discrimination involves giving reasons – it’s not just a matter of de gustibus non disputandum (as some of the objectors to Adam Roberts claimed). But you think that are lots of different discursive communities in which different kinds of reason work: in particular, you think (1) that the Hugo community and the ‘elitist’ community just have different standards for what counts as a good reason; and (2) that there’s no non-arbitrary way of choosing between such discursive communities and their reasons. I hope this doesn’t mangle either of your views too much, I’m just trying not to write ever-longer comments.

I don’t agree with that picture of reasons (or reasoning): very roughly, I think reasons get their force from human nature not from human discourse, and that some discourses can therefore be corrupt. I don’t think that the kinds of reasons I find appealing are self-evidently the right ones; I think they’re the ones laboriously discovered by several thousand years of creative effort to which we – luckily – are the heirs. In other words, I don’t buy (2) above. There is a non-arbitrary way to choose one discourse over another: choose the one which best suits our developmental nature as human beings. Note that I don’t necessarily believe that one is exactly Roberts’s discourse. I’m just defending the thought that there are better and worse discriminators of the value-properties of literature, and that it’s not entirely a matter of choice what those properties are.

That’s horrendously compressed and lacking in argument: sorry, it was that or write 20,000 words (or just gesture in the direction of Aristotle, Hume, and Mill).

I’m going to have to drop out of this now: my wife is on her way home and will want supper. Thanks for the interesting chat, all.
Daniel Abraham
16. DanielAbraham
Sam suggests:

There is a non-arbitrary way to choose one discourse over another: choose the one which best suits our developmental nature as human beings.

You have indeed summarized my argument quite well, and my sketchy knowledge of Aristotle, Hume, and Mill may exclude me from a useful engagement with the issue.

I'll say that my training in evolutionary biology and my experience as an educated layman suggest that (1) human nature hasn't yet been (and may never be) adequately defined, (2) the pleasure taken from an experience may be a better guide to its suitability to our nature than rational analysis, and (3) I genuinely can't imagine asking whether The Graveyard Book or Hunter's Run better suits our developmental nature as a human and coming up with a meaningful consensus.

For what it's worth. :)
Jeff Soules
17. DeepThought
@Sam Voy #15:

I don’t agree with that picture of reasons (or reasoning): very roughly, I think reasons get their force from human nature not from human discourse, and that some discourses can therefore be corrupt.

And your objective proof of a universal human nature is...? (I believe in one too, but I doubt it's the same one you do; what then?) How would this perspective account for systematic cultural differences in literary evaluation; are those who differ from us just "corrupted discourses?" Do disagreeing individuals simply have broken quality meters?

There is a non-arbitrary way to choose one discourse over another: choose the one which best suits our developmental nature as human beings.
So we must objectively select the proper criteria for determining how well a discourse suits our developmental nature as human beings... a meta-discourse turtle stack.

[the kinds of reasons I find appealing are] the ones laboriously discovered by several thousand years of creative effort to which we – luckily – are the heirs.

If criteria are evolving toward improvement, do you then reject the aesthetic judgments of prior generations which disagree with our own? What of favored writers who fell out of favor, but have since been restored in our time?

I’m just defending the thought that there are better and worse discriminators of the value-properties of literature, and that it’s not entirely a matter of choice what those properties are.

Here's the crux: if that's true -- if there are criteria for judgment which are objectively demonstrable as better, and which may be objectively measured -- then why have a vote at all? Voting is unnecessary. Either the individual makes the objectively right selection; or she is insufficiently trained to perceive the objective truth, and therefore her opinion can be dismissed out of hand until such time as she undergoes appropriate aesthetic re-education.

And it is immensely problematic that the "objective criteria of quality" which people (not necessarily you) propose always tends to represent an elite, wealthy, white, hetero-normative, male, academic perspective. If the privileged discourse has proven itself by evolving to its privileged position, and other discourses disagree, they must simply be corrupt; and if this tracks closely with power relations in society, well, the world we've inherited was laboriously constructed over thousands of years...
Sam Voy
18. Nick Mamatas
There is a large excluded middle between "arbitrary" criteria and the sort of teleology being hinted at here.

I doubt anyone is all that arbitrary when it comes to Hugo voting. It is unlikely, for example, that anyone decides his or her Hugo votes in the way I decide which type of strawberry icecream is best--by putting it in my mouth. (In fact, I am SURE that no Hugo voter has ever put the nominees in my mouth!)


Other than that, I'll only ditto the last graf of #17.
Madeline Ferwerda
19. MadelineF
... “most popular amongst the many tribes of SF/F fandom (or at least those who bothered to vote)”?

More specifically "most popular amongst people who want to pay $50 a year to SF/F fandom".
Arachne Jericho
20. arachnejericho
Some of the comments here amuse me, because I was arguing for tolerance of tastes on various sides. Which is tilting at windmills for some, I know, but I think needs to be said.

I have less of a sense of humor than John Scalzi, however, who explains more about the Hugos, and it involves tacos and, in the comments, discussions about Anathem and previous literary picks for the Hugos (like Brasyl and Yiddish Policeman's Union) and future picks (in particular, The City & The City is almost certainly going to make the short list next year).

Jedikalos,

Ah, for a beer summit. Truthfully, I think all Hugos---and frankly, other awards too---discussions can improve with alcohol applied.

(Indeed, if some of the weirdness going on behind the Nebulas that I hear about is even partly true, I think libations in excess are necessary all around.)

Sam and Jaws,

While I appreciate the circle of "normal" literary merit, I have always been humbled by my chosen minor by some of its more outre choices for classics to remember, even by "our" standards.

Things go in and out of fashion, of course. As they do everywhere.

Also, Jaws, the books involved in the Hugos have a lot more than just space battles going on in them. Although the reduction to caricature of the "other side"'s tastes is amusing---indeed, as amusing as the reduction of so-called "elitist" tastes, and really, it all is so ridiculous.

Nick, Daniel Abraham, DeepThought,

I am most partial to your comments, but then, I would be. And I also ditto DeepThought's last graf in #17, with feeling. One of the more painful reasons I dropped the comparative lit major down to a minor is echoed there.

Kate,

That makes me feel a little bit sad. And curious. But still sad.

Madeline,

I think the $50 fee, which is offset these days by the voter packet---let me tell you, it way way offsets the price; the novels alone more than make up for it---does help make the Hugos more serious.

And I don't know, I would end up spending all that on the novels anyways. The Hugos and the Nebulas have almost always provided the base reading lists for my friends (casual fans of SF/F who don't vote in the Hugos, so no, they don't "contaminate" the nomination pool).

On another note, I hear that nominations for the Hugos have been turned down before (or at least, indications are such in some of the comment threads on Scalzi's Whatever). I have no idea why, but apparently Pratchett regularly turns them down, as does Neil Gaiman (with an exception this year, obviously). John Scalzi turned down the fan award nomination for 2009 back in 2008. I'm sure there are more we don't know about.
Madeline Ferwerda
21. MadelineF
There are two things going on. Why $50, and why give money to S/F fandom. Anyone who wants to vote is already shelling out gobs of money to buy new stuff in hardcover. It's not an enticing benefit to then get the stuff you didn't care to buy, in electronic form. And why would anyone not raised in fandom pay to support it? Maybe in 10 or 20 years when inflation has made $50 a reasonable price, and there's a chance to get some new voices heard.
Arachne Jericho
22. arachnejericho
Madeline,

I'm pretty sure that Cheryl Morgan and John Scalzi can tell you more objectively why $50 and why to fandom better than I can---and I think they've done it, repeatedly, in the past.

I can only tell you what I experienced, which is: when I first made my foray into SF maybe over a year ago, I wasn't shelling out gobs of money for hardcovers. I didn't know what to buy, apart from Gaiman and Pratchett; how the heck would I know? Why would I spent that money at all, going in random directions?

And why yes, I do have $50 in spare change to throw at authors, but if I don't even know who they are, much less what may be considered median books, that doesn't help me either.

The voter packet from 2008 was, on the other hand, an excellent leg up. And the one from 2009 would have been equally excellent for someone new to the genre.

You know. New voices and all that.
Sam Voy
23. Sam Voy
Hello again.

Here’s an imaginable elitist position: there is a short, self-evident list of value-properties for literature; it’s the list used to form the official (white, male, heteronormative) canon; that uniquely correct canon is a fully-ordered list running from best to worst – Middlemarch is better than The Death of Ivan Illych is better than Cyteen is better than … all the way down to the worst novel in the world (suggestions invited).

I don’t believe this, and I doubt that anyone else does either.

Here’s an actual subjectivist position: responses to literature are simple matters of individual taste like preferring strawberry to chocolate ice-cream (of equal quality, thanks Nick M). The claim that Middlemarch is better than Cyteen just means ‘I enjoy reading Middlemarch more than I enjoy reading Cyteen’. A claim that this preference is correct or true is just a snobbish category mistake: a literary version of looking down on people who use the ‘wrong’ fork for the fish course.

I don’t believe this, but many commenters on Roberts’s Hugo grumble post apparently do. It’s what I – perhaps unfairly – took Arachne Jericho to mean in the OP here when she says that ‘your tastes are actually personal, not objective’.

Here’s a third position which I gestured flailingly at above: reading is a complex activity which exercises a range of human capacities – imagination, empathy, analogy, grasping and playing with patterns, projecting possibilities, modelling friendship and enmity, taking pleasure… (this isn’t a complete list). Done well and engaged with the right kinds of texts, reading expands and deepens those capacities, and expanding and deepening these (and other) central human capacities is a good thing. There’s a difference between someone who reads widely and well, and someone who only reads (the soft-porn lad-mag) Nuts: the Nuts reader is underdeveloped as a human being. So, texts which engage human capacities in this way are better than texts which don’t – better for us.

This position doesn’t entail that the white, male, heteronormative canon is a correct and complete account of the best in literature. In fact, it implies that it probably isn’t, precisely because its engagement with human life and capacities is partial. This position also doesn’t entail that there’s a single, uniquely correct, fully-ordered list from best to worst, because people differ both in their developmental needs, and in what nourishment their already-developed capacities crave.

What this third position does do is make sense of the ideas, (i) that there is better and worse in literature, and (ii) that some people are better – more developed – readers than others, whose views about better and worse have some (not absolute) authority.
Daniel Abraham
24. DanielAbraham
Sam suggests:

some people are better – more developed – readers than others, whose views about better and worse have some (not absolute) authority.

Sam, I appreciate your weighing back in. I hear you saying some things here that still confuse me.

You've suggested that fiction is better when it suits our developmental needs as humans.

I'm curious what standard and evidence you use to support the supposition that the people who prefer, for instance, Middlemarch to Cyteen are better better developed as human beings? Are the Cyteens as a set more abusive to their children, for instance? Are they more prone to suicide or clinical depression? What it the living mark of a better, more developed reader that privileges their opinion? Or, if there is no difference, then how do you claim superiority?

I feel that you have set the better, more developed reader (by which I assume you mean college-educated academics) as a class capable of judging in a meaningful way the humanity of others. That's quite a burden you've put on them. I would like you to justify that claim to authority and judgment in a concrete, demonstrable way. And preferably one that doesn't devolve to social class. :)
Andrew Mason
25. AnotherAndrew
Sam Voy: I think I can agree both that one can give reasons within a specific discourse for holding some books better than others, and that some discourses are objectively better than others because they better suit our developmental nature as human beings. But it's a big step from there to saying that there is such a thing as the discourse which best suits our develpopmental nature as human beings. Human beings have all sorts of needs which arise from their developmental nature, and books can satisfy various needs; so the question which books are the best can have different answers depending what we are looking for in them, and none of these answers need be wrong. (Given your latest comment I think we may be in agreement here - but in that case it's not clear if there is any real ground for knocking the choices of the Hugo voters.)

Deep Thought: it's true that if there were clear, objectively demonstrable criteria, there'd be no need for a vote. But isn't it equally true that if it were just a matter of personal preference (which I don't mean to claim you're saying), there'd be no need for a vote? What I like, in a simple insitinctive sense of 'like', isn't going to depend on what a lot of other people like - I'm not going to be swayed in my choice of ice cream by the votes of others. Voting seems made for cases where the answer is neither demonstrable nor simply subjective. (Well, this kind of voting, anyway - political voting is a bit different.) In asking a community to make a judgement we're implying that there is something to be discerned, at least according to the standards adopted in that community.
Sam Voy
26. Sam Voy
Daniel: some misunderstanding going on here, doubtless my fault:

(1) I don’t have any view about whether Middlemarch is better than Cyteen or not, I just picked them out of the air as two good novels. When I said that there isn’t a single, fully-ordered list of texts from good to bad, I meant that we often won’t be able to tell which of a pair is better, or even if either really is better. I’m arguing against the subjectivist view I sketched, which claims that there are no such rankings: that Nuts is as good, for someone who enjoys it, as Cyteen is for someone who enjoys it.

(2) I don’t think that college-educated academics will necessarily be better readers. They may have had more chance to practice – if they’re humanities academics, for instance – but there are plenty of very well-read non-academics, and plenty of academics who never read anything outside their own, narrow specialism. Similarly, people who work as park rangers will probably, but not necessarily, be better at outdoor survival than people who don’t.

(3) a better-developed human being is someone who has further developed the central human capacities (like imagination, empathy, etc.). This is better for that person, just as it’s better for the healthy person to be healthy rather than ill. It’s not a claim to superiority over other people, or an ability to judge others’ humanity.

AnotherAndrew: I don’t think we disagree about much, depending on how much weight you want to put on ‘none of these answers need be wrong’. Some answers will be wrong, on my view: there will be corrupting discourses and texts which we’d be better off without. I think lad-mags like Nuts form one such. I’m happy to agree that SF in general is hugely valuable (and incidentally contains many of my favourite books). And I still don’t have any particular beef with the Hugos: they can reward what they choose. I just want to reject the defence that goes “this is all a matter of taste, and my taste is as good as anyone’s”.
Arachne Jericho
27. arachnejericho
Sam,

In #23, yes, your assumption was quite unfair.

I knew this post was going to be viewed as taking one side or the other; it was not meant to be, but every post in this conflagration is being taken that way, so it was inevitable.

In general:

Personally I like to see opinions from all sides when it comes to the Hugos, because I see value in what people vote for---and the reasons always interest me. I don't care how literary or how un-literary, if that is an actual real term or valid comparison.

But I dislike people assuming that (a) I'm on some badly caricatured "side", or (b) that I don't actually have the knowledge to deal with one consideration or another when, y'know, I do, or (c) that I'm feckless in what I choose for the Hugos.

Nobody likes (a), (b), or (c) directed at them.

And for anyone who votes in the Hugos, none of these are true. And even for people who aren't voting, but who wish they could, none of these are true either.

People sometimes don't believe this kind of detail, but I do. C'est la vie.
Jeff Soules
28. DeepThought
The human virtues can be engaged and developed by a wide range of works, even the most questionable or marginalized*. The extent to which this is possible depends on the depth of the reader more than the depth of the work. "I don't see the merit of less-literary works" is properly understood as an indictment of one's own eyes more than the other's tastes.

* I do not of course mean some trite idiocy such as all works being equally good; just that to a skilled reader, even excrement can be fertilizer.


@Sam Voy #23:

There’s a difference between someone who reads widely and well, and someone who only reads (the soft-porn lad-mag) Nuts: the Nuts reader is underdeveloped as a human being.

Why characterize those who don't agree with one's aesthetic judgments as those who read only trash? Only because it is impossible to imagine that one's views could be completely contradicted by equally well-read, sensitive readers.
It's almost a calculated insult to anyone who doesn't already agree with Work A's superiority: the assumption that "I see more merit in Work A than Work B, therefore it's better; if you disagree, it must be because you're insufficiently read/insufficiently skilled as a reader." That is effectively Roberts' argument; I'll take him as representative. And it's literary snow-blindness.

Human capacities in literature:
imagination, empathy, analogy, grasping and playing with patterns, projecting possibilities, modelling friendship and enmity, taking pleasure

To take a more dignified example than lad-mags, compare A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man to The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, or even Tunnel in the Sky (since Roberts seemed so allergic to YA). There's an excellent case that the Heinlein novels, including the juvenile, stimulate and expand those human capacities you cited above better than the Joyce novel, because the latter is bogged down with autobiographical self-obsession and a needless focus on experimental literary technique, while the former are tightly plotted, engage great ideas of human existence, and feature crisp characterizations in settings more stimulative of the imagination (moon colonies and reborn societies being less commonplace and less frequently represented in our culture than Dublin prostitutes).

I don't disagree that some people are better readers than others. I do disagree that it is a sign of being an inferior reader to have a difference of opinion in one's considered preference. The problem with the "elitist" and "literary-absolutist" argument is that it automatically assumes that the elite-side ranter couldn't just be wrong. The argument Roberts presented is that the Hugo shortlist is a bastion of mediocrity because its candidates show insufficient literary experimentation. This is equivalent to the argument that Picasso is better than Rembrandt, because the latter's paintings are too boooooringly representational, or that Wagner exceeds Tchaikovsky on account of being more atmospheric and less tuneful. And in any event, it ignores the possibility that excessive literary experimentation might make for a worse book, and that even when it doesn't, it may just blind a certain kind of reader to the book's weak fundamentals.
Arachne Jericho
29. arachnejericho
DeepThought #28,

You know, I never thought about that comparison between PotA and Tunnel in the Sky. (I've never read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.) Though I'm very fond of Joyce, I think that is an excellent case.

(I'm taking up a collection of Joyce mentions used in actual arguments here for N.M., up until the Worldcon Hugos ceremony.)

I totally agree that experimentation can get over-wrought, leading to some... interesting... revered classics in post-modern literature.
Daniel Abraham
30. DanielAbraham
Sam Voy #26,

Yeah, I could have put that better too.

It seems like we're all fairly in agreement that there are different conversations (including the white, male, heteronormative one) and that the standards of each of this discourses is different internally.

I think I'm going back to Nick's comment in 17 about this being a meta-discourse turtle stack. I think what I'm reaching for is a basis on which corrupt v. uncorrupted discourses can be determined.

To borrow your use of Nuts, apart from our shared disdain of pornography and less-than-omnivorous reading tastes, how did you come to the conclusion that ladrag readers are as a class less healthy and developed than other people?

And is it possible to generalize that process of discrimination? Could we pass the same kind of judgment on readers of Star Wars novels? Urban fantasy? Romance? Those who read exclusively classics?

My concern bein' that we may have pushed back the level at which subjective decisions are being made, but I'm not sure that does quite what you're intending it to.
Arachne Jericho
31. arachnejericho
Small note: meta-discourse turtle stack and various insights in #17 are DeepThought's, though at least the last 'graph were approved by Nick. ;)
Sam Voy
33. Nick Mamatas
No fair commenting on the weekend! :)

A couple things:

Many people are able to differentiate between that which they like and that which is good. An extreme example: I like Pop-Tarts. Yet, it would be extremely silly for me to go to a restaurant with one or more stars from Michelin and express disappointment or outrage if Pop-Tarts were not featured on the dessert cart.

By the same token, when I bite into a Pop-Tart, I'm not going to spit it out if it doesn't taste like a La Madeline au Truffle from Knipschildt Chocolatier. It would be foolish of me to do so even if I disliked Pop-Tarts in the first place. "You call THIS a truffle?" No, I don't.

While many of Roberts's rhetorical opponents seem to be using the rhetoric of absolute subjectivity, I doubt that is their actual position (if only because they are defending Hugo voting in principle and often name books they are shocked Shocked SHOCKED that Roberts or whomever may not like). The rhetoric is weak here, not the taste. But that's bloggin' for ya.

And, of course, there is the Hugo ideology, the fannish whip-crackers demanding either participation or silence, and all that ridiculous rot. No, I need not invest in the quality control function of my local Pop-Tart factory in order to point out that Pop-Tarts are not truffles. "Gimme fiddy or STFU!" is a lame rejoinder.

All that said, Roberts wasn't really pointing to truffles or elite taste or that which is valorized by the academy: he was pointing to other SF which strikes me as not all that different than what was on the Hugo ballot anyway. Lee Konstantinou’s POP APOCALYPSE is not qualitatively different than LITTLE BROTHER. The fascistic, overlong, overwrought and ultimately nonsensical THE DARK KNIGHT is not a zillion times more awesome than the cryptofascistic, overlong, and oddly understated if ultimately nonsensical IRON MAN. Let's not go nuts with this elite vs unwashed thing. This is a slapfight between lovers of frosted Pop-Tarts on one side and the unfrosted kind on the other. "Only kids like frosting and sprinkles on their Pop-Tarts!" "Nyah nyah, you're an old fart who doesn't like to have fun!"



The other issue: "Central human capacities" is one of those things that aren't quite so central after all. There are any number of societies where it is considered a central human capacity to slavishly accept one's place within a harsh hierarchy of the state, family, and ultimately the cosmos (with the state being reflective of an exalted heaven). There are others where a central human capacity is the cultivation of personal honor even unto self-destruction or even social destruction. (These are often the themes of literature of these cultures as well.)

And I'm sure that modern Western "central human capacities" may seem monstrous to others as well. Hell, they often seem monstrous to me. (Yes, I do mean all of you and whoever you voted for and how you raise your children.)

Then there is the simple value of the antinomian, which even the basic thumpadunk prose of much SF can manage to great effect, perhaps better than the contemporary realism valorized for so long by members of the middle class as being the sort of literature that makes one better at living life. SF is also potentially a mind-blowing experience of a different order and category than the experiences of experimental fiction (which I also love and which has also blown my mind).


I'm reminded of Delany's criticism of THE BLUEST EYE by Toni Morison, which connects both the points here -- whose central human capacities (which must include "aesthetic appreciation"), and the importance of the antinomian:

As a black man with a twenty-three-year-old black daughter (and my daughter had a white mother), I'm bothered by a book that quietly dramatizes notions of "racial purity" (with all but one of its villains neurotic mixed-blood blacks) and quite articulately presents about being other than you are as the first step into madness.


It is difficult, ultimately, to claim that the best art is that art which makes people better people, since the majority of people on this planet are treated poorly by concentrations of power and that power includes the creation and promulgation of ideologies one of which is that there is some "better" type of person that one has failed at being. And by extension, that one could become better by submitting willingly even further to power and to the instructions of the powerful.

Sometimes there is value to the art that thumbs its nose at that which is good and great and wonderful about us right at this very moment.
Sam Voy
34. Nick Mamatas
AND I lost the keyword there: quite articulately presents fantasizing about being other than you are as the first step into madness.
Sam Voy
35. Sam Voy
Hmmm. I’ve been making an effort to make it clear (1) that I don’t have any beef with the Hugos – I’m disagreeing with one common, subjectivist view about literary quality, which the ‘perennial Hugos ballyhoo’ usefully brings out into the open; (2) that I don’t think that the traditional, mainstream canon accurately describes all of literary quality; (3) that I don’t think that people with (e.g.) academic qualifications in literature therefore have some kind of exclusive jurisdiction over judgements of literary value.

Even so, several recent comments – DeepThought’s in particular – take me to be defending a caricature elitist view that – to take DT’s example – Portrait of the Artist… must be better than The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (and if you disagree, you must be some sort of ignorant prole). As DT points out, we can argue using my account of quality that the reverse is true. But why would I want to dispute that? I’m happy to have that discussion, because it helps prove my point! I haven’t tried to give a convenient justification for the pre-existing value-judgements of a social elite: I’ve tried to show the possibility of objective (i.e. reason-guided) value-judgements. That there are objective judgements available obviously implies that current judgements, including the judgements of elites, may be wrong. Anyone who – from an elite academic position or from anywhere else – claims that it’s just obvious that Portrait of the Artist… is better than The Moon is a Harsh Mistress should be challenged to back that claim up with arguments, and neither ‘I like it more’ nor ‘I have a PhD in English literature’ is a good argument. (NB neither of these statements applies to me – I love The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and my PhD is in political philosophy.)

Arachne: whether or not you intended to come down on a side, you do argue for a subjectivist position in the OP (or if you don’t, I don’t understand your argument at all). That’s a coherent position and there are arguments for it, but I disagree with it, and I’ve tried to say why. I don’t believe, and haven’t said or implied, either of your (b) or (c), so to be honest I don’t think I deserved that slap-down.

Nick M: of course, you’re right that different cultures have had very different accounts of what the central human capacities are. Why would I disagree with that? And of course, we’d be very foolish to suppose that our culture has the complete and correct list of such capacities. I think our culture is pretty corrupt, although it has bright spots. Probably, no actually existing culture has been quite right about this. Probably, some cultures have been mostly wrong, as measured by the actual failure of people in them to live good lives.

I expect that at this point, Daniel and others are going to appeal to DT’s ‘turtles all the way down’ argument: ‘good lives’ according to what standard? But the problem with that move is that it applies to any judgement at all, not just judgements of value. You can always ask of some offered reason to make a judgment (that 2+2=4, that the atomic number of gold is 79; that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is better than Portrait of the Artist…, that a free person’s life is going better than a slave’s): according to what standard is that a reason? What reason can you offer to take that as a reason? But that way lies radical scepticism. And the fact that this move always leads to scepticism is good enough reason to reject it. (This is a common-enough argument that the sceptical move has a name: it’s called ‘poisoning the well’).

I agree that there are arguments to be had, and difficult judgements to be made, about what the best (most flourishing, most successful) human life would be. I could hardly disagree, since those arguments are what I spend my professional life on. But I don’t agree that disputes about that question are ‘subjective’ or ‘a matter of taste’ or culturally relative. And I therefore also disagree with the claim that disputes about books are ‘subjective’ etc.

This comment has now gone on quite long enough…
Sam Voy
36. Nick Mamatas
Radical skepticism and poisoning the well are themselves two radically different things.

For that matter, "Define your terms" is also quite different than either radical skepticism or well-poisoning.

Conflation of an insistence that one define one terms with radical skepticism OR poisoning the well, however, is a pretty obvious sliding slope fallacy.

"What is the good?" isn't something that can be just shrugged off.
Sam Voy
37. Sam Voy
Nick -

1. 'Radical skepticism and poisoning the well are themselves two radically different things.' - and no-one has suggested otherwise. Poisoning the well is the name of the move which, by insisting that we always need a further reason to take a reason as a reason, leads us to scepticism. ‘X leads to Y’ != ‘X is Y’. What I’m arguing (admittedly in a pretty compressed way in my last comment) is: (i) the fact that this tactic entails scepticism should make us reject it; (ii) therefore, some reasons just are reasons, without further separate reason for taking them as such; (iii) successful human life is a candidate for such a reason; (iv) here are some suggestions for what that life would involve (I’ve already offered an incomplete list with specific reference to reading: 'imagination, empathy, analogy, grasping and playing with patterns, projecting possibilities, modelling friendship and enmity, taking pleasure').

2. 'For that matter, "Define your terms" is also quite different than either radical skepticism or well-poisoning.' - I have done my best to define my terms, at some length. Whether I’ve been successful or not, the fact that people have been discussing those terms suggests that you can’t claim I haven’t tried.

3. 'Conflation of an insistence that one define one terms with radical skepticism OR poisoning the well, however, is a pretty obvious sliding slope fallacy.' - I've made no such conflation. I've responded to a specific criticism - 'turtles all the way down' was DeepThought's nice way of putting it, and Daniel has also pressed me on it - with a counter-argument. See (1).

4. '"What is the good?" isn't something that can be just shrugged off.' - nor do I think it can be. I have defined the concept of the good by reference to an analogy with healthy development. I have made some suggestions about the content of the good by listing a variety of central human capacities which are cultivated by reading. I haven't given a complete account of the good, for two reasons: first, I don't have one (I'm writing a book which offers a partial catalogue, but it won't be finished for quite a while). Second, I'd be very surprised if even a reasonably comprehensive but incomplete catalogue would fit into a blog comment of non-ridiculous length.

5. I didn’t address what I think is the most important part of your last long comment:

It is difficult, ultimately, to claim that the best art is that art which makes people better people, since the majority of people on this planet are treated poorly by concentrations of power and that power includes the creation and promulgation of ideologies one of which is that there is some "better" type of person that one has failed at being. And by extension, that one could become better by submitting willingly even further to power and to the instructions of the powerful. Sometimes there is value to the art that thumbs its nose at that which is good and great and wonderful about us right at this very moment.


That’s an equivocation on ‘better’. Of course, claiming that there is ‘some "better" type of person that one has failed at being’ is one way of entrenching power (another way is to claim that all forms of life are equally good, and then use advertising to sell ‘lifestyles’). But that doesn’t tell us anything about what actually being better – that is, living a life which is better for the person whose life it is – would be. The reason why you’re right that there’s value to the art that thumbs its nose at ideological visions of what’s ‘better’ is that it’s an attempt to destroy a damaging illusion. Honestly, how could you read my comments above and suppose that what I'm arguing for is an art which endorses whatever vision of the best human life is convenient for an elite? The idea of really better and worse lives is a ground for radical criticism of such elites; it’s the notion that we shouldn’t or can’t have any such idea that’s conservative. See plenty of revolutionary political thought, from Epicurus to Marx, which argues that there’s a real best way of living as a human, and that current mores and power structures corrupt and stunt people.
Arachne Jericho
38. arachnejericho
Sam #35:

First, I can't think how that actually was a "slap-down" and secondly, I have no idea why insisting on "objective" standards isn't ultimately a rejection of many sides; whereas having an open mind---and not "subjectivist", as you define it--- doesn't also accommodate "objectivist" viewpoints. It's a bit of a meta position on the part of the article. That you can only interpret this as being only subjectivist rather than accepting your opinion also is rather silly, but oh well.

"If you're not for me, you're against me"---that's how you come across to me.

Incidentally, the last bit of my comment was not targeted at you. It was addressed
as "in general".
Sam Voy
39. Sam Voys
Arachne - Having an open mind means not rejecting alternatives out of hand, without evidence. It doesn't mean never having an opinion. I have long-considered opinions about some of the issues raised in your post; I've given reasons for those opinions, read counter-arguments with interest, and responded as best I can; we've had a pretty smart, interesting discussion which I've enjoyed. Seriously meant question: how would you have preferred me to respond to the OP and to comments?
Sam Voy
40. Nick Mamatas
Poisoning the well is the name of the move which, by insisting that we always need a further reason to take a reason as a reason, leads us to scepticism.

But that hasn't been insisted upon. It's actually not all that difficult at all to argue for a reason for a reason. You mentioned Marx. Why should Marx's narrative of human emancipation be taken seriously -- that is, what is the reason for the reason? Well, a Marxist would point to the fundamentality of materiality as opposed to, say, the Idea.

Sure, can materialism be argued against? Yes, but it can be argued against in terms other than "Aw, you're just saying that because you're a Marxist!" or "There's another turtle down there somewhere!" We can say that materialism can/can not explain/predict novel facts, for instance. We can point to people who are materialists yet who are anti-Marxist, demonstrating to a certain extent that materialism is not always an ad hoc Final Turtle for Commies.

This is also an issue when it comes to the summing up of Marx as having argued that there is "a real best way of living as a human" -- it's not so. Marx had very little interest in, say, how aristocrats might best live as humans, or capitalists. Indeed, his answer is that they must not live as aristos or capitals, even to the point of suggesting that they may not be let allowed to live, period.

If people are wondering aloud about the marginalized when you cite Aristotle and talk about the centrality of this or that set of aspects of humanity is that the very same rhetoric has historically been used to exclude and to marginalize.

What people seem to me to be asking is "If it's not turtles all the way down, at least point to your Final Turtle so we can get a look." You invite such questions when you make functional claims about literature and its utility to living better/freer/etc.
Sam Voy
41. Sam Voy
Hmm - dunno how I managed to change my handle to 'Sam Voys' there.
Sam Voy
42. Sam Voy
Nick - sure, my response to the 'turtles all the way down' objection doesn't answer the question you've just asked. It wasn't meant to - it was meant to answer what I took to be DeepThought's argument, further pressed by Daniel. Maybe I misunderstood them. And I haven't argued that it's never possible to give a reason for accepting a reason - that'd be crazy. I argued that some reasons are bedrock - they don't require further support - and that human flourishing is one such.

My answer to the 'final turtle' question (nice) about the nature of flourishing is the one I've already sketched. I don't have a complete list of central human capacities, but they include (edited and extended from earlier comment): imagination, empathy, analogy, grasping and playing with patterns, projecting possibilities, friendship, taking pleasure, independence, benevolence, and creative self-expression.

As I've already noted, the fact that structurally similar views have been used as cover for oppression is not a counter-argument: it's guilt by association, and could in any case be applied to pretty much any moral/political view. Structurally similar views - with far more similar content - have also been at the heart of progressive and egalitarian politics.

Marx: this has the potential to take us way OT, but OK:

...Marx as having argued that there is "a real best way of living as a human" -- it's not so. Marx had very little interest in, say, how aristocrats might best live as humans, or capitalists. Indeed, his answer is that they must not live as aristos or capitals, even to the point of suggesting that they may not be let allowed to live, period.


I disagree. Marx was certainly interested in how aristocrats should live as humans: they should stop being aristocrats, because being an aristocrat is a corrupt way of making a living - corrupting for the aristocrat, who is failing to express herself through work - and is part of a corrupt economic, social, and ideological system which damages everyone involved in it. Of course, Marx thinks that the only way aristocrats can do that is wholesale revolution - they can't do it one by one, and they mostly won't do it voluntarily.
Arachne Jericho
43. arachnejericho
Sam Voy #39,

I wasn't saying that opinion aren't to be had; indeed, what I say is that multiple opinions exist and que cera cera. Whether any one person rejects another opinion is also que cera cera. You're looking for opposition to your point of view---and in the article that doesn't exist. The comments, of course, may be something else.

I don't really have any recommendation for how people react; they can react in your way or in other ways. The question of "how did you want me to react" is, to me, just weird. Why should I demand or expect you to act one way or another? I may call you on it, but I don't buy into the idea that there's a proper way to react to anything I write. Interpretation of intent, though, is another matter.

I wonder if that kind of thing is where we fundamentally disagree, including on subjects beyond the topic of even this general conversation.
Arachne Jericho
44. arachnejericho
An additional note: I find it difficult to believe in "bedrock" sensibilities, having lived in a culture where some of what's been mentioned as irrefutable is defnitely not the case. While I dislike that culture, it would be quxiotic at best to claim that their sensibiliies are somehow less essential than our own culture's.

And some of those sensibilities that I still have are in direct conflict with the culture I live in now. (Committment to social structures over true love, for instance. Or the idea that love, at least as portrayed in a lot of literature, does not exist. And "worse", according to Western Culture.)

When I was younger and still looking forwards to a lit major, I made the mistake of reading Western texts with these values and mores in mind. And I didn't understand why it wasn't okay to read Shakespeare with what may be broadly called an Eastern mindset, but it was perfectly okay to read foreign translations with a Western mindset.

You know. Not what I came to comparative lit for.

It's okay though because I make money now. *g*

That experience shaped my understanding of critique and opinion later. For good or ill, I don't know. I get signals from many directions that it's not okay, but you know, context is the ocean.
Daniel Abraham
45. DanielAbraham
I suppose the point I'm reaching for here is that while I agree there are better, more humanizing books/discourses/thoughts, I don't see any way to judge them. If people report that cheesy soft-porn ladrags of the Nuts variety have made them deeper, more spiritually developed human beings, I may be skeptical. But unless there is some genuinely objective measure (differential incidence of violence, depression, suicide etc.) that I can point to, I don't see what basis I (or anyone else) has to refute the claim.

In practice, I think this means that the value of a piece of work *is* best judged by how well it satisfies its readers. I don't see how that's different from how much they like it.
Sam Voy
46. Sam Voy
Arachne:

1. There very obviously is 'opposition' to my view in the OP, because the OP asserts a view with which I disagree. What does 'It’s easy to forget that your tastes are actually personal, not objective' mean, if it doesn't disagree with the view I've been sketching? Whether people accept or reject my or anyone's opinions is not 'que cera cera' unless those people are completely unreasonable: there are reasons for and against opinions, and reasonable people listen to them and modify their views accordingly. Nick and Daniel, in particular, have been doing a sterling job of pushing me to do just that. I hope I've done something similar for them. This isn't an unfamiliar activity: it's just ordinary human debate.

2. I haven't mentioned anything as 'irrefutable'. I haven't claimed that 'our own culture' has the 'essential' sensibilities and some other culture doesn't - in fact I've explicitly denied that very claim. I don't have any problem with reading Shakespeare with an 'Eastern mindset' - why would I? What does that have to do with anything I've said? I don't think you're really arguing with me: certainly, you're not responding to anything I've actually written here.

Daniel:

We're still misunderstanding one another. I haven't claimed that reading makes one healthier in the sense of not being depressed etc. I suggested an analogy, not an identity, between literal health and development. I've already listed some of the capacities I think are central to human life: see most recently the second paragraph of comment 42. And I've already said that 'objective' means a lot more than 'measurable'. So I don't accept your test for objectivity, nor therefore your fallback to self-reported satisfaction as the measure of value.
Jeff Soules
47. DeepThought
A ton to respond to here. No fair commenting while I'm at work! :)

In general: the "final turtle" is always the same: the turtle-stack ends with shared definitions. Necessarily, always. Those are the only "reasons which can be taken as bedrock" that Sam can legitimately refer to, because they're the necessary-and-sufficient precondition to communication. Definitions are created by discursive communities. If that seems "subjective" or "relativist," forgive me, but it's a basic tenet of linguistics: it makes no sense to talk about a definition divorced from definers (though one must not make the mistake of assuming that because something is a social construct, it is somehow less "real" -- linguistic communities exist, and words do have meanings). Disagreement over definitions does not make one discourse "corrupt" (an argument either circular, lazy, or subjective), it merely means that reasoned discussion can't yet happen; that the sides aren't yet using terms defined precisely enough, and thus aren't yet speaking the same language.

Philosophical (as opposed to scientific or factual) arguments reduce to argument over the correct definition of terms.


This brings up the point:
Sam Voy:
But the problem with ["turtles all the way down"] is that it applies to any judgment at all, not just judgments of value. You can always ask of some offered reason to make a judgment (that 2+2=4, that the atomic number of gold is 79; that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is better than Portrait of the Artist…, that a free person’s life is going better than a slave’s): according to what standard is that a reason?

According to the standards all parties have agreed to, of course.
The judgments you list are of distinct types, because the definitions involved are under different degrees of dispute. "Two and two is four" is incontrovertible because speakers universally ridicule debate on what the meaning of "is" is. Similarly, non-scientific discourses do not dispute the definition of atomic weight; they simply don't have one.
"Best," though -- this is an extremely polysemous word. Even within a single individual's use it has a great many mutually irrelevant (and in some cases mutually contradictory) meanings. It simply isn't worthwhile to argue about what the proper definition of "best" is; that's the point of the M-DTS. It's far more valuable to state one's objective observations, i.e. say what one actually means.

Objectivity, thus, is not a binary property but a gradient, based on how widely accepted the definitions are. "Michael Phelps is the best swimmer" is a more objective statement than "John Coltrane is the best saxophonist." The former implies an obvious, agreed-upon definition of best: the guy who holds the records (or do we mean the one who tries hardest, or can hold his breath the longest, or whose form is more ideal...?) This is a less objective claim than 2+2, and a more objective one than freedom's superiority to slavery, which is in turn more objective than Heinlein's superiority to Joyce. All cases depend upon how fundamentally agreed-upon the definitions are.

A "relativist" understanding of meaning, though, does not imply rejecting the existence of truth. I believe in true and false ideas. Truth, properly understood, is a measure of the predictive force of a given mental model of the world. An idea is "true" to the extent that it predicts conclusions which are held up by observation* (i.e., all truth is hypothesis). For objective/tightly-defined statements about gold and math, which can be readily verified by independent observers, truth is nigh-absolute. For internal states, verifiable prediction becomes harder (though not impossible). For judgments of literary quality -- what sort of predictions could reasonably be made by a claim of "best literature?" None!, not that can be reliably verified by multiple independent observers, not without you first clarify the meaning of "best." There cannot be truth about the idea of "best literature" because the statement implies no distinct mental model which can supply independently-verifiable predictions about any claim other than itself (until additional ideas are introduced to give shape to "best" -- which we can then either evaluate objectively, or continue to refine until we're talking in agreed-upon terms).


As for my comments about the merits of specific works, they are more a response to Roberts than to you, Sam. However, I intended to show that would-be objective definitions of quality in literature are themselves subjective, insofar as they probably aren't agreed-upon by the parties in the conversation, even when those agree that objective standards exist. Roberts' preferred Hugo candidates fail by your objective definition of literary quality; who's right then? Probably the folks who just took "best" to mean "What I think is most worth reading for people who don't have the time to read them all," and didn't start the ballyhoo in the first place.


* (thus, yes, feng shui, or astrology, or divine intervention, could be a perfectly true means of understanding the world, as long as it is consistently effective in its predictions. If an idea's predictions are so vague as to be unverifiable or trivial, or can only be made in retrospect, then it isn't *false* exactly, just right useless and meaningless.)
Arachne Jericho
48. arachnejericho
Sam,

There very obviously is 'opposition' to my view in the OP, because the OP asserts a view with which I disagree. What does 'It’s easy to forget that your tastes are actually personal, not objective' mean, if it doesn't disagree with the view I've been sketching?


Ha. In a way, you've been a perfect example of a point of view people should tolerate: from what I've been seeing here, it is pretty much your preference to view and test reasons from a reference point set up by a series of standards.

But it's not everyone's preference. However, some people like to pretend that such a way of approaching material is somehow snooty and thus "less worthy".

If you disagree with this, that's still cool, because people tend to pick out value judgment systems based on different rules, and some will violently disagree with each other.

Basically, my intentions when writing the article was never to join the debate, but to watch from the sidelines and wonder at people who argue so fervently over literature that others would take us all down a peg for even considering awarding at all.

Thus I don't see why the article as written actually opposes you. The article doesn't care about truth. It just acknowledges that people see truth in different ways. And whether or not what you're arguing for is true, other people may not see it that way.

From that perspective, I really don't see your problem with it, unless you just want to butt heads against a wall.

I haven't mentioned anything as 'irrefutable'. I haven't claimed that 'our own culture' has the 'essential' sensibilities and some other culture doesn't - in fact I've explicitly denied that very claim.


Well, you do claim:

I argued that some reasons are bedrock - they don't require further support - and that human flourishing is one such.


And that was what I was responding to. Even if you say that you support the idea of different essential sensibilities of cultures and how ranking them is difficult, you keep referring back to one or another argument of "bedrock" and "fundamental" reasons.

Especially with your rejoinder,

Probably, some cultures have been mostly wrong, as measured by the actual failure of people in them to live good lives.


Yes, Western Culture isn't ideal, but "good lives" is... an odd way of defining how you look at other cultures, since "good" needs a reference point of some kind, and has very often been used to mean "my culture" versus "your culture" (or, as is sometimes the case, "my perception of their culture is better than our culture").

And I don't think there are any bedrock reasons that don't need to be defended, that aren't wrong from another perspective. But that's just me.
Daniel Abraham
49. DanielAbraham
Sam suggests:

I've already listed some of the capacities I think are central to human life: see most recently the second paragraph of comment 42. And I've already said that 'objective' means a lot more than 'measurable'. So I don't accept your test for objectivity, nor therefore your fallback to self-reported satisfaction as the measure of value.

I'm very sorry to be so dim. What I'm hearing you say is that 1) there are books which are objectively better than others and 2) we can't tell what they are.

You can see how that might be confusing. Is that what you're saying? Or does it at least clarify *how* I've misunderstood?
Sam Voy
50. Sam Voy
Hi – sorry it’s taken me a while to get back to this.

1. Daniel – you’re not being dim, you’re asking challenging questions, and I’m increasingly not having the time to answer them as they deserve – sorry. This is similarly inadequate, but I’d like to appeal again to the three (ideal-type) positions I sketched in comment 23. My position was supposed to be a middle ground between the elitist position which ranks everything, and the subjectivist position which rejects ranking entirely. In particular, I wanted to say that there are real distinctions of quality to be made in the field of literature, but to deny that there was a single, complete rank-ordering. The next question is, how to make those real distinctions? I was thinking of close criticism as done by (e.g.) Lionel Trilling, or Paul Fussell, or John Stuart Mill when he explains (in his Autobiography) how Wordsworth woke the capacities for appreciating beauty his early education had stunted. So, I don’t expect to come up with a rank-ordering of all literature (as I jokingly suggested in 23, Middlemarch is better than The Death of Ivan Illych is better than Cyteen is better than … all the way down to the worst novel in the world) – but I do think that criticism can be more than reports of how pleasant the reader found the book.

2. DeepThought – there’s a lot going on in your comment, I’m not sure I understand all of it, and this is going to be just as inadequate as my response to Daniel. How does your account of truth account for the possibility of discovery? ‘True’, according to you, means ‘accurately predicts future observation’. But how are we to tell what’s been observed, and whether it confirms or falsifies the prediction? It looks like: by agreement. And that makes the test of truth not the world, but us: George Orwell to the white courtesy phone… My shorter, even less adequate response is: we don’t agree about what truth is; on your picture, this means ‘true’ doesn’t mean anything for us; what are we to do now, to continue the conversation?

3. Arachne – I find it very hard to respond to your latest comment, as indeed to all of your comments, because they seem to be discussing a strawman, or at least a very distorted version of anything I believe or have said. Perhaps I’m just not expressing myself very well, but I dislike the role I’ve been cast in, I don’t have the time or the energy to continue trying to correct it, and so I’m just going to bow out of this exchange.

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