Sat
Jan 31 2009 3:04pm

Battlestar Galactica Round Table: “The Oath”

And we’re back with the round-table style discussion about this week’s episode of Battlestar Galactica, “The Oath”, and then we open it up to the rest of the Tor.com community for a big ol’ discussion. The participants this week are Torie Atkinson, Threresa Delucci, Rajan Khanna, and Pablo Defendini. The conversation starts after the cut, and there are many spoilers. So if you haven’t seen the episode, please stay away from this post!

Pablo: Last night’s BSG was so good, I had to watch it twice in a row. [soapbox rant—A word of advice to Hulu: if you stop posting Battlestar Galactica the morning after it airs, as seems to be your plan after the first five episodes of season 4.5, I—and I’m sure many others—will go back to BitTorrent. As it stands, failing posting right on the air date/time, this is acceptable. Please keep it up—end soapbox rant]

Last week I didn’t understand why the writers were going to waste their time with a mutiny plot this close to the end of the show, but now I see: it’s facilitating a return to form for many characters: Roslin finally snaps out of her silly funk and starts being a player again. Zarek’s out for blood, power and the presidency. Starbuck’s back to kicking ass and being an adrenaline junkie: “Take a breath, Lee. It feels good being alive.” The Old Man and Tigh play buddy cops. Gaius “I have no desire to leave you, but I have to go” Baltar is back to his self-preserving ways. Hilarity ensues. That said, his try at a back channel conversation with Gaeta was admirable, and it was good to see the return of the dynamic that’s been developing between him and Roslin since they were both back on the base star during the attack on the resurrection hub.

It was frustrating how long it took the CIC to realize what was happening, and it was hard to watch sleazy Gaeta fooling everyone on the phone. Although he’s right about one thing: Adama’s not the leader he was when they started.

The dramatic performance by Tigh’s Eye when he finds Roslin’s been shackin’ up with Adama was priceless. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Michael Hogan can emote more with that one eye than most actors can with their whole damn faces.

And frakking Gaeta needs to be airlocked ahora. Preferably by Laura “Airlock” Roslin herself; she hasn’t lived up to that nickname in far too long.

Torie: I thought this was a truly stand-out episode. It was the first great one of the season, and my only wish is that it had happened in Season 3 instead of so close to the end of the series. It allowed each and every character to get in touch with the reasons why we loved them so much early on the series: Starbuck finally stopped being a crazy religious nut and went back to kicking ass; Lee snapped out of his politician mindthink immediately and became Apollo again; Roslin got her shit together, finally; and the Old Man and Tigh got a chance to be close again, without any of that I-don’t-know-what-you-are bullshit.

I really liked the way that Gaeta very quickly finds that he doesn’t have the charisma or the sheer power to command loyalty the way that Adama does, and I just know that’s going to be his undoing. I’m hoping Adama himself will get to airlock the bastard, but Roslin would be an acceptable replacement. Zarek was merciless and brutal as always—it’s good to be reminded that for all of his talk of rule-by-the-people he’s still a goddamn terrorist.

This is the first episode in a long time that made me excited and impatient for next week. I can’t wait. I hope it ends with a bang.

Theresa: I also enjoyed this episode so much I had to watch both airings. 

I, too, think Moore & co. are bringing the characters full circle... yet completely changed. Adama isn’t the leader he once was. (Loved his “It was an honor to have served with you,” an echo of his words when Galactica was saved from Cylon attack by the Pegasus.) Roslin’s not the same president, Kara’s not the same soldier, Lee isn’t just his father’s son. And I don’t think the mutiny is a waste of time. The fleet has every right to be pissed, hurt, fractioned, and, frankly, I think they are entitled to completely distrust the Cylons. The human genocide was only, what, about three years ago? I can understand where Gaeta and Zarek are coming from on some level. Adama and Roslin continually, often forcibly, demand that the fleet just trusts them and they all get led down dangerous paths that usually have little reward. 

I’m hoping me see more of tough-gal Kara. I missed her trigger happy ways. Loved the snark between her and Hot Dog. Come on, after last week that is a fitting call sign. And Kara has frakked half the fleet.

Also happy to see clever, self-preservation mode Baltar. I was getting tired of his Cult of Lonely Women. Also thought this mutiny was a great way to integrate him into the main story again. Finally! He and Roslin do have quite a bit in common, aside from horrible aides. But that was a great point, too. Who else missed Billy in that moment? Best. Aide. Ever.

Some of the conspirators surprised me. Et tu, Seelix? It sucks to see Gaeta turn into such a slimy villain. While I can understand his hate of the Cylons, his anger at the Adama administration, he just doesn’t do his cause any favors. I am still really surprised by this character’s arc. He is so uncharismatic, so... not threatening. But I believe he was acting more to prop up power for Zarek, not for himself. How could he ever think he could be a leader? At this point, I’m positive he’s getting airlocked. Poor Mr. Hoshi! 

I loved the Laura/Bill romance. Playing house together, saying that sad goodbye. Good to see the Old Man making his stand with Tigh by his side again. Full circle, but completely different. Bill has his ship to regain and his love to fight for. Adama’s back! Bust out the flashlights!

Finally, can people stop threatening to rape Athena? It’s become her distinguishing feature now or something.

Raj: This was the perfect episode after last week. Last week was set up, this week was the explosion. I was glued to the screen, though I had to pause it at several times, just because I needed to take it all in and I didn’t want it to be over with so quickly.

I was a little pissed that we finally got to see some of Helo and then he gets knocked out.

Gaeta is completely slimy, I agree. And he has to die in some completely fucked up way now. Roslin’s “I am coming for you” line is now understandable.

And as others have said, I loved the return to form (though as Theresa said it wasn’t a complete return). I loved Kara shooting the mutineers. I loved seeing Kara and Lee tear shit up again (face it, Lee’s been boring since he started wearing the suit).

I’m looking forward to seeing the stand-off with the base ship. It’s been done before, but I do love those stand-offs. I don’t believe that Tigh is going to die (they still haven’t brought back Ellen), but I think Adama is entirely vulnerable.

And they did better on the Baltar, but I still want more.

23 comments
Pablo Defendini
1. pablodefendini
Theresa, I agree: too much rape, and it's sad to not have Athena be more active (and Helo, too); although it was nice to see that the crew of the "the Beast" didn't just magically fold into the culture of "the Bucket" seamlessly after the showdown between Cain and Adama.

There were a few things about this episode that threw me off: for one, how did Starbuck and Lee know who was friend and who was foe? Also: was Athena referring to the Final Five as a whole, or to Anders in particular when she said that Anders was especially important, when they were all in the brig? Minor things, to be sure, within the context of a fantastic episode.

As for the fate of Tigh and Adama, I don't know. I'd hate to see the Old Man go out so blandly, even if, say, he gets injured and spends the next few episodes on his deathbed (hey, there's your dying leader!). Now, Tigh.... I could totally see Tigh dying, and then being resurrected somehow, in the same way I'm assuming they will resurrect Ellen Tigh. We'll see what happens.
Rajan Khanna
2. rajanyk
Pablo: Good point about Tigh. I hadn't considered the possibility of resurrection.

I had the same question about Lee and Kara in the ship - it seemed like the main distinction was that the mutineers were mostly Marines, but of course that didn't include everyone.

And it is interesting that we're still seeing old issues come up - not just the mistrust of the Cylons, but as you mentioned, the friction between Galactica's crew and the former Pegasus crew, and even the friction from New Caprica. Lee said that the Cylon attack was three years ago, right? All of this stuff is still bubbling under the surface.
Jason Henninger
3. jasonhenninger
My main thought throughout was, "Well, that's more like it!" The one before it just pissed me off. This one was solid.
Jen Hill
4. greybon
Awesome episode. I was so happy seeing them rise back up again. I was confused by Lee and Kara somehow knowing friend v foe like that too.

Anyone else watch this during regular broadcast on SciFi? I ask because I wonder at the spoiler commercials that kept happening throughout. They showed at least one scene before it happened. Then later they showed us some scenes from next week. I'm annoyed that they did that!
Dayle McClintock
5. trinityvixen
@4: I think I'm going to have to insist on watching everything time-delayed. That was the only way I could have made it through that episode once it started! And now you tell me there are spoilers, that's even more reason to do so.

Theresa: My personal "et tu?" moment was with Racetrack. Seelix proved herself to be inordinately hostile to Cylons after her trip on the Demetrius and she was working on embarrassment and disappointment in Sam because romantic tension leading to murder always makes sense. But Racetrack!? She's pretty much the only non-Starbuck/Apollo pilot to have been there from the beginning and she's turned traitor. Whyyyyyyyyyyy!?!?!?! I mean, fantastic drama--the person always there in the background finally moving up and out, but that killed me. Racetrack!

Pablo: I didn't think Gaeta's sleeze-face was any different from his "I'm surrounded by idiots"-face which is why no one could figure out he was up to anything. But I did think it was hilarious how they kept cutting back to him every time Hoshi would go, "Hey, wait, there's something not right." Every time Gaeta had this expression like "Quit doing that, I'm trying to take over the ship, you dumb bitch." And then Hoshi got marched off, too. Wedding's been canceled methinks.
nutmeag
6. nutmeag
Great round-table. I can't say I disagree with anything you said. If you want a good article on the inner-workings of Gaeta, check out io9's latest BSG article--http://io9.com/5143404/why-is-gaeta-so-bad.
Pablo Defendini
7. pablodefendini
@ nutmeag
Yup, Annalee's right on-point with a good recap of Gaeta's history, although in addition to Gaeta's desire to stay true to his convictions, she overlooks his chronic case of hero-worship, which is why he always ends up in the lapdog role to people like Baltar, and later Zarek, men who have created a cult-of-personality about them. I mean, remember back in the first season, when he was all fawning over the great Gaius Baltar, science genius?

@ trinityvixen:
Oh, I think the wedding was canceled a while ago—I'd say as soon as Felix came back from his ordeal on that Raptor during the webisodes...It's just that poor Mr. Hoshi never got the memo.

And yeah, one of the added bonuses of not watching shows when they air, or on the broadcast network, is the absence of stupid or spoilery commercials. I've yet to be subjected to spoiler-laden previews of next week's show, or—even worse—had to sit through KFC trying to sell me on something called a "Frak-pak", whatever the hell that's supposed to be. Oh, wait. They changed the name once someone actually told them what "Frak" is supposed to mean. Now it's the "Can't-say-that-word-on-television Pak". Yeah. Way to pander AND condescend, ya fucking idiots. To paraphrase Jeff Smith: "Stupid, stupid ad creatures."
Angel Banchev
8. Tiranas
I second the time delayed watching.It just makes for a more thorough watch of the episode.Plus being a non-american i am spared the torture of watching the commersials :) Remeber last week with the Splat! Effect ? :) That was just plain stupid and now KFC...Like wtf ? :) About the Ep finaly something solid character-wise.Tigh and Adama playing the Last Hero Routine was just pricelles to watch.And i second again the bit about Michael Hogan.That man`s eye deserves a friggin` Oscar !
Finaly Roslin steps up from the whole i lead-the-world-now-leave-me-alone routine.It was about time too.

On another notion Gaeta`s behavior is understandable but its nice to see what he goes through while attempting to defend his position.Plus Pablo you`re right that Gaeta has a hero-worship thing but i think its curious to see how he tryes to become one himself by doing what he thinks is right.I think that someone in the last round table said that because he lacks the whole Hero Aura thing he turned to Zarek.All and all i think that he is becoming more interesting to watch.And yeah the whole i-try-to-overtake-the-ship-stop-trying-to-get-in-my-way face was a good touch to the whole feel of him.


Starbuck is back and it was nice to see her kick ass again.

Guys Baltar...well no comment there though i cant say im surprised by his attitude.It was his from sometime in the third season.

I do hope that neither Adama or Oscar-Eye Tigh gets killed though and see them in a Terminator Mode :) Now that would be good american TV.
CE Petit
9. Jaws
If you want to take some time out away from assuming too much about the Cylons and the Humans, think about the parallels between these three episodes and the aftermath of Brown v. Board of Education. One of the strengths of BSG is that it's much more than just allegory. Some fen have been busy for a couple of years trying to draw incident-by-incident parallels to the Captivity, and to Exodus, and for that matter to several other (usually religious) narratives, but I think they're missing the point. And the next two episodes will do a pretty good job of debunking that, one way or another... and I'm saying that based on narrative threads only.

I suspect that the "explosions" in this episode will prove nothing more than triggers for bigger ones.
Josh Kidd
10. joshkidd
Does anybody else find it amusing that Gaeta is leading a rebellion of the minor characters against the major characters. You can almost hear the voice in his head:

"Would it have killed them to give me a few move lines? Anders and Torie get to be in the Final Five! How are they more important than me? Four frakkin years and all I get is a webisode series. Seems the only way to get noticed on this show is to do something crazy. Well, I'll give them crazy. Unite my underwritten comrades, it's time to take the spotlight."
Mitchell Downs
11. Beamish
WOW. And I am not talking about the episode - I am talking about the fact that you are all praising it.

This was a beat-for-beat stock mutiny storyline - right down to the cliff hanger before the cavalry arrives in Act I of the next episode. It was completely unoriginal and uninspiring writing - sure the actors give credible performances but the story is tired.

I agree 100%, we are finally seeing these characters return to form - but the only reason we need such a stock story line to re-redefine characters is because ever since the horribly executed New Caprica storyline they have all drifted so far from their identity as to become useless and dull - a fine metaphor for the series too.

Though it will be viscerally satisfying to see Gaeta and Zarek die in some vicious, cold and nasty manner - I am still not confident we will get it. Even if we do - I do not know if it is going to be enough for me to actually care anymore. I am only watching out of a need to complete the show.

Of course, if the Marines storm in, riddle Adama and Tigh with bullets while Gaeta launches a full AA broadside at the Rapyor vaporizing Roslyn, Tyrol and Baltar - then I might be interested in the story again.
Pablo Defendini
12. pablodefendini
@ beamish #11
Though it will be viscerally satisfying to see Gaeta and Zarek die in some vicious, cold and nasty manner - I am still not confident we will get it.

I agree with that, at least... Sure, it's a standard mutiny plot, but it still makes for a good story.

I actually found the New Caprica storyline very engaging in its entirety. The allusions to the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and the graying of issues surrounding insurgencies and so-called terrorist actions was, to me, compelling television, and—more importantly—politically challenging at a time when most of mainstream entertainment was afraid to tackle these themes in any way that went against the knee-jerk nationalist party line.

And come on: the scene where Adama jumps Galactica directly into atmo in order to launch a blitzkreig-like Viper raid during the season 3 opener is badass, in my book.
Dayle McClintock
13. trinityvixen
@10: Snerk. I can totally see this as the revenge of the scenery! They're tired of being killed off already! It makes total sense, especially considering that Dualla was the last to die before this all got started...
Mitchell Downs
14. Beamish
@ #12
And come on: the scene where Adama jumps Galactica directly into atmo in order to launch a blitzkreig-like Viper raid during the season 3 opener is badass, in my book.

Yeah...you got me there. :-D That was a fantastic bit of cinema.

I have always felt the New Caprica story was an aborted attempt to change the show and stop being "Exodus in Space" - it was abandoned before it was established leaving us with half a change.

It certainly had moments of resonance, however (to torture the Iraq metaphor), the show never had its "Surge". Instead it played out like the cut-and-run option and thus failed to actually deliver anything new. Look at all the RetConning we have seen - either they never knew where they were going or they had to change it radically at the end of the New Caprica story.

That "half-change" is why I would love to see Adama and Tigh simply die in a hail of bullets - at least that would signal real change.
nutmeag
15. Uland K.
Boy, I have to say I'm pretty surprised at the unreserved scorn being piled on Gaeta. As much as I'm fond of Adama ,Roslyn and the rest of the "power circle", I have to agree with Gaeta on a very basic level.
Firstly, the rest of the fleet has no compelling reason to trust the breakaway Cylons. I wouldn't. I don't.
Secondly- though I think even Gaeta would agree that a pure Democracy is impossible under the present circumstances- the councils' ability to represent/defend the rights of the citizenry has been thrown aside a little too easily by Adama and Roslyn ,who, some viewers seem to think have a "right" to the positions they enjoy, for some reason. They don't.
I like them too, but they need to be held to account.
So, while I don't know that Gaeta's plan was the right thing to do, I'm in sympathy with his motives.
Yes, it was a desperate move, and he's clearly not equipped to lead in the way an alpha type like Adama is, but in a way I see it as an honourable move.
I thought the Athena/Rape scenario was unfortunate. I thought it created an undue association: basically , that mutiny is what "bad guys" do.
None of the parties are clean. To make that association is to offer an easy way out for the viewer, who I think would get much more out of trying to come to terms with a very complicated scenario.

As an aside, I have to say that comparing Cylons to racial minorities, and the joining of these two forces to Brown vs. Board of education is not only an unworkable analogy, it's offensive to minorities ( unless you're willing to argue that different races are "programmed" to do evil or something.If Cylons are similar to any sort of demographic, it's to any distinct group that attempted total genocide....) .

One basic difference I seem to have with many of my fellow BSG fans is that I'm unwilling to forget that the Cylons all but wiped out humanity. The only reasonable response is to airlock the lot of them. I see the under-representation of this view as a major deficiency in the series as a whole.
Dayle McClintock
16. trinityvixen
Uland K said:
As an aside, I have to say that comparing Cylons to racial minorities, and the joining of these two forces to Brown vs. Board of education is not only an unworkable analogy, it's offensive to minorities...

I agree that comparing immortal killer robots to any real life group is not only problematic in terms of the analogy but offensive. I have two friends at each other's throats over the Jews vs Nazis argument vis a vis humans vs Cylons. Too many arguments we'd make based on our history are too charged to make for a good analogy.

And, again, IMMORTAL KILLER ROBOTS. It's really hard to hand-wave away that aspect of Cylonicity because it is what makes them so fundamentally different from humans that they were totally unable to realize why humans would be pissed at them once they said they weren't going to hunt them for sport any more. It's why Natalie's revelation about the importance of mortality to the 2/6/8 faction was such as dramatic shift in Cylon psychology and why they were finally able to come to any sort of partnership at all. I mean, mutiny, people booting Cylon engineers off their ships, yes, but think about it: every time the Fleet jumps, that decrepit basestar jumps with it. That's monumental.

One basic difference I seem to have with many of my fellow BSG fans is that I'm unwilling to forget that the Cylons all but wiped out humanity. The only reasonable response is to airlock the lot of them. I see the under-representation of this view as a major deficiency in the series as a whole.


It's a POV I sympathize with but that I can't fully support. It may be a ret-con, but there is at least some intimation that humans might have provoked the Cylons by peeking over the armistice line. Does that excuse Six and her cohort of immortal killer robots from eradicating humanity because of a mandate from God? Hells no, but it complicates the issue. And if it boils down to who-started-what-first, you could go back to the fact that Cylons were slaves and only knew humans as aggressors. Or, if we're to believe the experiences/hidden memories of the Final Five, we could go back further to when the Cylons were attacked back on Earth. (The intimation, given the apocryphal stories of the 13th tribe, would be that humanity had something to do with that.)

But even without playing eye-for-an-eye, humanity has to come back to a point where they look at the almighty white board of death and add up the number and get extinction. Unless they intermingle with the hardier Cylons (say there are only 1,000 on that basestar--that's still 1,000 more potential producers of offspring), humanity is doomed. It may be a bitter pill to swallow, but humanity would have to accept extinction and to die to spite the Cylons and then what good does that do?
nutmeag
17. Uland K.
Trinity- Thanks for the response. I think that we, as viewers, have expectations about some kind of ultimate resolution that probably will involve Cylons and humans coming to some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement, or simply becoming one. It's probably so, and if presented in stark terms - join together or die- I'd obviously go for it. But, as it stands now, if you put yourself in the shoes of basically any human in the fleet- if you knew only what they knew- I think the best plan would be all out destruction of Cylons, period. If their ultimate goal is to achieve safety/security, I think that's what the vast majority in the fleet would want to do.
But I don't for a second think that there are any easy answers, or that intelligent people couldn't disagree. That's why BSG is so frackin great.
nutmeag
18. Dylan C.
@Uland K. - While I share your surprise at the black / white light that everyone seems to see the Mutiny in I think you go a bit far. Sure, there are obvious reasons to not trust the rebel Cylons but your statement that "The only reasonable response is to airlock the lot of them" would be like if, as a response to the Third Reich, all Germans were shipped to work camps and gassed. genocide or mass killings is not a rational or, more importantly, an acceptable response to genocide.

On your point of the threat of rape it seems to me that it was less to push the mutiny as a whole fully into the "bad guys" camp than to reiterate what I see as a major theme of the series, that dehumanizing one's enemies is wrong. It was also one of the particular people who threatened it before and I'm sure Gaeta would not support that action which both limit it's relevance to the mutineers as a whole. It did seem to represent that that mentality still exists in the fleet.

Anyway it has seemed to me for a while that the show is either moving towards a reconciliation with the Cylons for mutual survival or a refusal to trust the Cylons and mutual destruction.
Rajan Khanna
19. rajanyk
Dylan hit on what I was going to say, which is that I don't think you can paint any side on the show as homogeneous.Obviously there are different factions on the human side, with a spectrum of beliefs. What I think much of the show has been trying to show us is that it's the same for the Cylons. And while it's more likely that the Cylons have a more unified social structure, I think the Cylon's internal split has shown that there can be differences in opinion, even among the same model. It's all well and good to talk about programming, but I think we've seen plenty of evidence that whether or not that programming every really existed in the current models, it's no longer a limiting factor.
Dayle McClintock
20. trinityvixen
@Uland: I would have agreed with you way back when there were no innocent Cylons. When Helo prevented Adama from killing the infected Cylons (who would have resurrected and spread their disease to all Cylons), I was the most vehement Helo-hater around. It seemed like the stupidest frakkin' thing to pass up on. I acknowledge that it would have been Genocide but only to a point because of the unique make up of Cylon society. The key difference is in the fact that Cylons are all soldiers. (Until Boomer, Caprica, and D'Anna started to act up, all Cylons were soldiers. The fact that very humans believe the Final Five were completely unaware is another matter.) We have this understanding that soldiers are fair game so long as we are in a state of war. Ever since the attacks on the colonies, humanity has been at war. Ergo, although killing all Cylons is technically genocide, it's still covered as "war."

But, as you said, this show isn't content to let us off with that easy answer. We are uncomfortable with the idea of killing off all the Cylons (especially with biological weapons) even as the need to beat them down seems essential to humanity's continued existence. The stress of wanting fairly understandable revenge and knowing you have to work with the enemy just to have a future is probably why the Fleet is going nuts in the first place.
nutmeag
21. the rhino
Agreed that this was the first truly enjoyable episode in a mostly strange and illogical, in my opinion, beginning to series 4.5. I must admit that I've just gotten caught up and watched all the episodes back to back last night, which may or may not have been a mistake, I'm still not sure. Frankly, I'm still not sure what to think of the new season.

I know this discussion is about this episode, but I have to say something about the first episode: What the hell was wrong with Earth? Low-level radiation? So what? Maybe I've been playing Fallout 3 too long, but it seems to me like Earth was just fine. No one wore any sort of radiation suits or breathing apparatus while they were on the surface, there was grass and shrubs and trees growing back already, and compared to the bleak existence on the ship, Earth looked like a step up to me. Maybe not a sunny, tropical paradise, but at least like New York in winter without the buildings, or like how I'd imagine a cold, Scottish landscape. Didn't they say the nuclear blast had happened like 3000 years ago? What's the big deal with a little low-level radiation?!?

Again I apologize, but about the second episode and Sweet Dee's suicide: was it implied that she was a Cylon herself? Was she humming "Along the Watchtower" to herself before she shot herself? At this point it seems to me like the whole Final Five crap has been blown out of the water, its now more like the Final Everyone Else! My understanding is that we got not-so-subtle hints that Starbuck, Ellen Tigh, and Dualla could all be Cylons. When Lee fraks up at the press conference and says about the last of the Final Five, "We have reason to believe she is dead", could he be talking about Dualla? Ellen? Maybe I'm just ignorant of some tidbit no one else saw but ye who dwell in the land of the webisodes. If so, please excuse my ignorance, but please feel free to enlighten me.

Finally on to episode 3. So I agree that it was good, but only good in comparison, only good because the other two were so bad. We are all happy that all our beloved characters are back to form, but only because they had strayed so far, otherwise we'd be complaining that they haven't changed one bit.

It takes an armed revolt to get Roslin to have a problem with Zarek taking over, but if it had just happened from her lack of enthusiasm, then President Zarek would have been ok? And much has already been said about Starbuck and Lee and their apparently innate "I-know-I-can-trust-this-guy-with-but-a-glance" Spidey-sense, but it must be repeated: bullshit! Also, they've been breeding mistrust for Cylons for years, and Adama has been one of the staunchest proponents of this, being that he IS the military, but all it takes is a drunken male-bonding moment laced with a little bit of suicidal tendencies with his old pal Saul the One-Eyed-Toaster (I guess that makes him the new Centurion model) to make him see that Cylons can be trusted after all! Awwww! Kodak moment! Double bullshit!

You know what would have been cool, what would have shown us that Adama meant what he said to Gaeta on the CIC about the consequences of his mutiny? If he had shot that punk marine in the face instead of letting him go. I guess it's true, Adama is not the man he used to be... good thing he's dead. Yeah, right!

And so, on to the dramatic cliff-hanger! What was the point? How exactly did Adama and Tigh staying behind help anything at all? And please, I hope nobody invokes that bullshit "go down with your ship", "running is for cowards" crap. My understanding was that they stayed behind to ensure that the Raptor got away, but it made no difference, the escape was a success anyway. So again, what was the point? Oh, right, I remember... the point was so we could have some sort of contrived cliffhanger! Please, excuse ME! I forget that good TV writing is hinged upon contrived plot-lines for the sake of creating that feeling of "I-can't believe-they-did-that-but-maybe-hopefully-next-episode-they'll-fix-it" feeling that keeps us all coming back for more!
nutmeag
22. Uland K.
Dylan, et all- I just can't imagine that after planets full of humanity have been murdered by Cylons that any human would realistically settle down for debate about what it means to be human, or wether a machine can or should ever be alloted "human" rights.
But let's pretend that isn't so. I'd argue that while we , the viewers, know any given Cylon can act independently- that they do have a will and can choose right/wrong actions- we also know that they can be programmed. Therefore they'll always be a threat, imo. Even if the Cylon "network" is done away with completely , we don't know that it can't be rebuilt. Their technology is so far advanced that it isn't something some kind of central command could control.
Cylons will always be a threat. The best way to insure the survival of humanity is to eliminate that threat.

-And, as an aside, I still say that comparing Cylons to any historical human race/political movement just doesn't work. There are certain parallels , sure, but nothing that can really work out as an analogy.
nutmeag
23. Hoopz
"What the hell was wrong with Earth? Low-level radiation? So what?"

People visit Chernobyl all the time, without radiation suits as well. There are animals roaming around, and there is plenty of vegetation. But you wouldn't want to actually live there.

Low-level radiation which is fine for a day or two could still kill you within a year. It's simple math: level of exposure = intensity x time.

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