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posted Friday July 25, 2008 01:00am EDT

Some of Origins of Marvel (and Other) Comics

Jim Henley

In all the versions of it, no one missed him.

--Thomas Lynch, "Michael's Reply to the White Man"

Reading ComicsIn which I contribute more to The Valve's Reading Comics symposium than mere linkage. But first, more mere linkage, to playwright Justin Grote's appreciation of the book. I want to add megadittoes to his praise of the book, particularly the section where he explains how, "The genius of Reading Comics is that it combines the best of both [the fannish and formal critical] traditions." (Not so much for his assertion that SF fandom "began to emerge" in the 1960s.) I mention how much I agree with this part now because, in the way of things, I'll be spending a couple items on places where I disagree. So let's get to it.

The medium of comics has a Myth of the Fall that RC touches on, and that one finds elsewhere among critics, advocates and certain practitioners, and goes something like this:

Once upon a time, the comic-book industry offered a stupefying variety of material. From the late 1930s through the late 1960s you could buy monster comics, romance comics, humor comics, crime comics, horror comics, and, yes, superhero comics. Alas, as the 1970s turned to the 1980s, the two major corporate publishers, Marvel and DC, turned their backs on the general audience - especially children - to saturate the emerging (adult) fan market flocking to comics specialty stores, and since the fan market wanted superheroes and more superheroes, that's what the Big Two, and a remora-school of wannabes, gave them. As a result, circulations plummeted, the mass audience tuned out, and "pop" comic books lost their general-issue appeal, becoming the preoccupation of a dwindling audience of aging fanboys. Only once the independent comics (aka "comix") movement gathered steam from the late 1980s to early in the new millenium did at least a portion of the industry dare to provide the variety of sequential-art narratives that would appeal to a large audience.

This myth is very nearly completely backwards.

When I think of the 1970s, I think of the major comics publishers trying like hell to stay viable in the general-interest market and failing. The long-term trends in comic-book circulation. from the 1940s to the 2000s, move almost inexorably downward, except for a speculator-driven bubble for a few years around 1990. According to Wikipedia, Ben Morse of Wizard Magazine believed, based on his research, that the top-selling comic book of the early 1940s was probably Fawcett's Captain Marvel, and it moved around 1.4 million copies a month. Many comics had circulations of over a million per month, including most of Disney's line, and Dell's licensed properties like Tarzan and Roy Rogers. Timely's Captain America shifted nearly a million copies a month, and monthly Archie circulations seem to have been in the high six or low seven figures. The Kefauver/Wertham witch-hunt of the mid-1950s certainly crippled the industry, though apparently their biggest victim, William Gaines's EC line, mostly sold in the hundreds of thousands rather than millions per issue.

in 1960 there were still two titles selling a million copies a month, both from Disney, according to Statement-of-Ownership data compiled by The Comics Chronicles site. Superman, Superboy and Batman had circulations between a half-million and 850K. The "average" circulation in 1960 by CC's calculation was ~316,000. Per the SoO data for the rest of the 1960s, that was the last year any newsstand comic sold more than a million copies. The Adam West-driven Batman craze of 1966 and 1967 made Batman the top comic of those years, but it didn't crack 900,000 in sales. By 1969, the top two comics, Archie and Superman, barely break the half-million-copy mark per issue, and the average circulation is about a quarter million.

In the 1970s, Marvel Comics tried publishing sword & sorcery titles (licensed from the estate of Robert E. Howard), monster titles (Wolk offers a lengthy appreciation of the Marv Wolfman/Gene Colan Tomb of Dracula in Reading Comics), war comics (Combat Kelly seems to have failed in 1972, jungle adventure (Shanna the She-Devil sputtered out after two attempts), even Romance - Millie the Model lasted until 1973. DC tried science fiction (Kamandi), horror (House of Mystery and House of Secrets), war (as late as 1979 they debuted All-Out War, which appears to have lasted six issues. Marvel tried an entire line of black & white full-trim magazines, tending towards horror and science fiction.

None of it worked, except - sort of - the superheroes.

Wolk tells some of the story, and you can pick some of the rest of it up elsewhere. The newsstand channel collapsed in the 1970s, and not because of superheroes - Archie, Gold Key and Harvey comics continued to be available to distributors; at least, the ones the publishers didn't cancel continued to be available. Newsstand distributors and retailers gave up on comics because the low price points made them unprofitable compared to other things they could be selling - one reason Marvel tried to become a magazine publisher. The comic-book industry fled to the direct market just ahead of a cave-in. They took refuge in superhero comics because nothing else worked.

So the Myth of the Fall gets the causality wrong. But it also raises a question it doesn't bother to answer: why is it that only the superhero story remained (somewhat) commercially viable as the industry transitioned to the direct-market era. In theory, the industry might have dwindled to a core of aging romance-comics fans, or monster-comics aficionados rather than superhero geeks like me. What magic power did the likes of us hold that - let's face it - soulless corporations chose to chase our dollars rather than those of other slices of consumerdom? Why did the superhero pamphlet-sized comic die more slowly than other genres?

I think it's because superheroes really did remain comic books' competitive advantage: they were the kind of genre story that comics could tell effectively that other media couldn't. Romance readers enjoyed the rise of Harlequin and Silhouette. Milporn enthusiasts could buy Mac Bolan paperbacks, at least until they stopped reading. Horror fans had numerous low-budget movies that delivered the various kinds of fright kicks more effectively than could drawings on newsprint. If you wanted war stories, you could get them from movies, books or TV. But until recently, other media couldn't or wouldn't provide superhero entertainment as well as the comic-book medium could. It's not that there were no TV shows, no cartoons or no movies. It's just that, for the aficionado of superheroes, there weren't enough of them, and many of the ones that did exist didn't measure up. They had lousy effects or reeked of condescension or embarrassment. I watched the first Richard Donner Superman movie a couple years ago. Margot Kidder and Christopher Reeve turn in wonderful performances. But much of the movie is downright insulting to - people who love Superman. And the effects are pretty awful. Supposedly "You'll believe a man can fly," but without making his cape lift off the backs of his thighs. The water in the dam-break scene defeats the modelers - the drop sizes break the illusion. The script is deliberately cornball, and when you come down to it, the plot doesn't compel. Even otherwise very good efforts like the two Tim Burton Batman films betray moments of embarrassment on the part of the creators. Say what you will about the ex-fans and Asperger's cases the Big Two hired to fill the direct-market with superhero books from the early 1980s on: they didn't spend half their time winking at you.

The assertion that there is or was some "natural" fit between the comic-book medium and superheroes hovers over the preceding, and such assertions make art-comics and manga partisans roll eyes. So let's be clear: sequential art can and should be about lots of things. As Wolk suggests in Reading Comics, graphic romances aren't just thwarted chick flicks; illustrated memoirs aren't just ways to tell the story of your life in fewer words. The way that Daniel Clowes uses the conventions of the Sunday newspaper strip to structure Ice Haven results in a reading experience unique to the medium. You literally couldn't have that story, in the proper sense of the term, in another medium.

But. The monthly pamphlet comic could fulfill the conventions of the superhero story more successfully than the same format could fulfill other genres, relative to the other options available at the time (the couple decades beginning in the late 1970s). As Wolk notes, art-comics creators have been abandoning the pamphlet comic as un-economical and esthetically restrictive. It's becoming a book form rather than a magazine one. Manga has settled on the digest-sized, $10 paperback with hundreds of black and white pages: profitable to retailers;affordable to fans; portable; offering hours of value. And, really, still, more people watch TV.

We're also reaching the point where the superhero story itself is in the process of finding new homes. Some of the best work in the genre in the last 20 years has appeared outside of comics itself: the "Timmverse" cartoons based on DC Comics properties; about half of the "Marvel movies" that have come out in the last decade; various prestige-format books. We're starting to see some seriously intended prose novels too, as opposed to novelizations of existing properties. For good and ill, the pamphlets have become chiefly a means to amortize the costs of producing the paperback collections that will eventually hold them, and which are increasingly crucial to the business plans of the superhero comics publishers. The superhero comic didn't kill the rest of the industry back at the dawn of comics fandom, but the things that did kill the rest of the market may yet kill superhero comics.

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tags: comics, reading comics, superheroes, publishing

41 comments
Kate Nepveu
1.  Kate Nepveu
Friday July 25, 2008 07:32am EDT
Interesting discussion, thanks.
eric orchard
2.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 08:18am EDT
Really interesting argument and it does turn my idea of comic history on it's head. Is the suggestion that super heroes are now shifting away from monthly comics toward film, books and other formats?
Dave Robinson
3.  DaveRobinson
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 08:27am EDT
Some very interesting points and I agree that it's not so much that comics did superheroes better than any other genre but that every other medium did superheroes worse than comics.

I'm still a comic reader now and I love the stuff despite being in my mid-forties. Even so, the floppies are getting less and less of my money. Part of it is that I do have a family and so I need to get value for my luxury spending.

If I come home with a stack of twenty-five floppies they get picked up and I get 'the look.' "You paid how much for this?"

I can't really argue, $3 for a comic is hard to justify.

At the same time if I come home with a DC Absolute complete with slipcase I don't get the same look. I get the 'I know you like this stuff,' look instead.

The big reason is value. A great big full color hardcover is something she can see the value in, so spending money on it is fine.

I know sequential storytelling will stay around-- at least in the bookstores, but I too fear the floppy's days are numbered.
Kate Nepveu
4.  Robotech_Master
Friday July 25, 2008 09:29am EDT
I would like to have read comic books when I was a kid, growing up in the late 70s and 80s, but my parents wouldn't buy them for me and my allowance wasn't big enough to let me afford them. Even if I could have afforded them, there were other things I could spend my money on. And there wasn't any way to check them out from the library, either.

I think that was one of comic books' major downfalls (though obviously not one that stopped them from being successful for most of their lifespan)—if you missed issues, or wanted to learn backstory, you couldn't find out what you missed without spending a lot of money because libraries wouldn't stock them and you had to depend on your local comic book shop having back issues.

And you had to keep kicking in umpteen bucks per month to keep up with your favorite stories. It was like cigarettes, only not as unhealthful.

The Internet offers a lot of interesting possibilities for the graphic-art medium now. Phil & Kaja Foglio have stopped putting out comic pamphlets altogether for their Girl Genius series, going straight to the Internet with it and publishing printed collections instead.

I wonder if the big comic book companies might consider doing that eventually.
eric orchard
5.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 09:43am EDT
@ Robotechmaster..Here's what DC is doing. It's fairly new so I don't know what the plans are for collecting them in other formats. The quality is remarkably high although I'm not crazy about the interface.
eric orchard
6.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 09:43am EDT
and of course I forgot the link....
http://www.zudacomics.com/
Kip Manley
7.  kiplet
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 09:56am EDT
Orchard: Is the suggestion that super heroes are now shifting away from monthly comics toward film, books and other formats?
Specifically film and TV and videogames, I'd say; I wouldn't myself make the argument that prose is taking over superheroics in any meaningful sense. Point being that for the longest time the only place you could economically generate the eyekicks and spectacle that makes superheroes super was CMYK ink on paper. That's no long true; the only thing comics can now do better than video (to lump movies and TV and games under a single, ill-fitting rubric) is the history and the tradition—

—and the comics, yes. Those superhero comics that draw on the strengths of comics—the ability to drop you into another world defined by a (relatively) singular viewpoint; the intensely personal communication between artist and reader; the unique ways that information can be structured and set to flow between images on the page—those comics won't find meaningful competition in video. Comics that depend on spectacle and eyekicks will see their audience going elsewhere. Especially as the history and tradition starts migrating that way, too.

In other words, Christ on a crutch but the Watchmen trailer is almost as laughably bad as the Spirit trailer. (The fact that I may well prove alone in equating the two as having monumentally missed the point {to say nothing of looking like shit} in no way compromises my argument.)
eric orchard
8.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 10:21am EDT
(I'm pretending the Spirit movie isn't happening.)
On the other hand, when you do comics instead of film or video games etc. you have an unlimited budget for special effects.
Kip Manley
9.  kiplet
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 10:30am EDT
"Unlimited budget" in ink on paper loses to "unlimited budget" in CGI if all you've got and are going for is goshwow.
Melissa Singer
10.  masinger
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 10:38am EDT
I think that lack of access to the floppies isn't helping. While I understand that the direct market and comic shops saved the industry, it's very difficult now for a new (young) reader to develop an appreciation for "traditional" comics because they are hard to find.

I live in Queens in New York City. When I was growing up--in the same neighborhood I live in now--I bought my comics at the local "sundries" store. The same place sold newspapers, greeting cards, band-aids, candy bars, ice cream, magazines, cigarettes, toys, etc. I'm willing to believe that some member of my family shopped in that store at least three times a week, and I went every Saturday (when I got my allowance) to pick up new comics.

I could afford quite a stack, too, even on my meager 1960's income. (By the time we got into the 1970's, I was babysitting and had a more reliable cash flow.) My father sometimes picked up the tab (and read everything I brought home).

This corner store shelved comics in the magazine rack and later in a spinner rack, and I continued buying from them throughout high school. By then there was a comics shop in the neighborhood, but it was, as so many were in those days, a hostile environment for girls. I shopped there only rarely. It folded well over a decade ago and was eventually replaced by a smaller place that got through a lot of lean times by holding weekly Magic: The Gathering competitions.

By 1976, I was buying comics via a pull service and getting a nice box once a month, which I continued to do in college and for many years after. I supplemented this with occasional drop-ins at a very nice comic store in Manhattan, and this persisted until my daughter was born, at which time my disposable income sort of vanished.

A few years ago I began trying to interest my daughter in comics. She likes superheroes a lot, but mostly she reads manga (and like my father, I wait for her to be finished before swooping in for my own fix).

If she wanted to buy comics regularly, though, it would not be easy. There's that one comics store in our neighborhood--and it's not in a part of the neighborhood she gets to every week. She would have to decide to go there, make it a destination, and she isn't that motivated. There's another comics store sort of nearby, but we'd have to drive or take a bus to get there. Our local B&N does not stock comics, though some do.

Additionally, even at 12, she's wants value for her money. If she spends $10 on a manga, she gets a couple of hundred pages of story. If she spend $10 on three comics, she gets less than 100 pages of story.

The thing is, because comics in floppy form are alien to her, she's not interested in picking up the compilations, even though they're readily available in the bookstore and shelved with/near the manga.

I wonder if this lack of interest is typical of readers her age. I know that most of her friends, male and female, who read comics/manga are reading manga, not comics, and this even though they dutifully troop off to see the various superhero films (me too). The movies don't seem to inspire them to pick up traditional comics--but I'm willing to bet that this is in part because they can't find them in the first place.
eric orchard
11.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 10:52am EDT
@kiplit I'm not so sure, people are pretty cynical about CG now, remember Beowulf and others? Kids are finding their own imaginations are better than anything Zemeckis could come up with.And Gollum is looking way more dated than anything Jack Kirby ever drew.
Kate Nepveu
12.  Jon Hastings
Friday July 25, 2008 10:54am EDT
Great post, Jim!

Re: Spectacle

Spectacle is central to super-hero comics and, I would argue, super-hero stories in general. In the work of the best super-hero artists - Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Jack Cole - the spectacle is an integral and integrated part of a unique aesthetic vision. It isn't just a question of having an "unlimited budget", but also of being free of the industrial constraints of "Hollywood" special effects.

None of the super-hero movies (even the good ones) have come anywhere close to the kind of visual achievement of Jack Kirby's "minor" works - like Devil Dinosaur or OMAC - let alone his major stuff - the Fourth World, Thor, and The Fantastic Four. At best, these movies will have a moment or two where spectacle and poetry combine as in the best super-hero comics (the Hulk smashing tanks in the desert in Ang Lee's Hulk, Superman lifting the Kryptonite island into space in Bryan Singer's Superman Returns), but, for the most part, the effects are too tied down by convention.
Kip Manley
13.  kiplet
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 11:06am EDT
Talk of "poetry" drags æsthetics into it; talk of Jack Kirby this or that gets back to how comics is better than just about anything else at immersing you in one person's unique and compelling worldview. To get objective for the moment, and look at things that resemble numbers: the kids who we want to read comics are getting their spectacle elsewhere, in games and movies and TV. Period. Hard to argue with that. Whether we feel their imagination trumps the CGI in Beowulf is immaterial; they ain't feeding their imaginations on comics to nearly the extent they used to. They're elsewhere, scoring cleaner and purer hits.

By all means, comics should look for the poetry in spectacle, yes yes. But to depend on spectacle alone is to fight for ground we've already lost. Civil War didn't sell so well because it was widescreen spectacle; it sold well because it was every Marvel superhero fighting a battle that changes everything: playing with and hanging from the tradition and the history of the persistent, large-scale popular fiction that is the Marvel universe. (The spectacle in the comics was stiff and overly rendered and slow, bad comics, to my mind: a remixed storyboard with a sticky choral overdub and really cheesy synth effects.)

Now that Marvel's having such success in the movie arena, have you noticed how they're building tradition and history there? Tying the properties together in a persistent, large-scale popular fiction? There is still an economy of scale, yes yes: it's easier to put out 20 books a month to care for and feed your persistent etc. than it is to put out 3 movies a year, so maybe we should add "caring for and feeding persistent etc." to the list of things comics can do better than video. But caring for and feeding etc. isn't something you can only do in comics. So don't pin your hopes there, either.
eric orchard
14.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 11:13am EDT
I'm still not convinced. I teach at a boy's high school and no one really cares about super hero movies . Grand Theft Auto, maybe.The kids who love comics really love them. The one's who like whiz bang movies only like them and forget them soon anyway.
I never suggested relaying on spectacle alone. Fireworks has that covered.
Kip Manley
15.  kiplet
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 11:17am EDT
Grand Theft Auto, precisely.
eric orchard
16.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 11:19am EDT
Precisely what? Grand Theft Auto is replacing paper comics?
Jim Henley
17.  Supplanter
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 11:43am EDT
You guys are being smarter, faster than I can keep up!

On the question of whether and when the monthly superhero floppy will disappear: I dunno. From the publisher perspective, so long as they are at least a breakeven proposition they provide cash flow while getting enough material together to publish the next book. That's from a creator perspective too: do you think John Cassaday wants to wait nine months for a check while putting the next trade paperback together? As to the retailers, floppies provide a reliable stream of weekly visitors. IF they manage their own finances well, that's an advantage. Also, monthly pub schedules mean monthly hype.

That leaves us, the readers. What do we get out of the deal? Hard to say. I'm thinking one answer is "lowered transaction costs." Hang with me here a minute: I know I'm going to pick up my box. I know I'm going to give the shelves five minutes once-over for anything not in my box. I know I'm going to find out whether Leigh killed the mouse with the RatZapper I leant her, and I'm going to get in some face-to-face conversation with a couple of folks about comics etc. I don't have to think about it all that much. It offers the pleasure of habit, and a stream of new sensation without much search time. Then I've got the books and . . . here it all gets a bit hazy.
Chris Meadows
18.  Robotech_Master
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 11:54am EDT
It seems like the big comic book companies are becoming more and more "superhero IP companies" that just put out comic books in a sort of desultory way because it's what they've always done, darn it, while making their real money from movies and other licensing fees.

I suppose if the comic books just serve as scratch space to lay out ideas you can pick and choose from for movies, they pay for themselves in the movie rights…
Jim Henley
19.  Supplanter
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 12:23pm EDT
Well, I don't know if that's completely true.

I don't much like the return of company-wide "events" like DC's Unending Fucking Crisis and Marvel's One War After Another cascading maxi-series. BUT, I'll say this for it: it's a lot more work than you need to go to if all you want to do is keep your trademarks alive so you can license them. They're never going to make a movie out of House of M or 52. Thank God.
Kip Manley
20.  kiplet
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 01:05pm EDT
orchard: Precisely what? Grand Theft Auto is replacing paper comics?
That word "replacing" is doing a hell of a lot of murky work in that sentence.

Is Grand Theft Auto comfortably settling into the dusty paper-scented longjohn-wearing four-color void left by the drop in sales of floppies? --Of course not.

Do far, far, far more people play and enjoy and have cultural experience with Grand Theft Auto today than all of comics qua superhero comics? --I'd rather think the question answers itself.

Jim, o esteemed host: I've got no feel for City of Heroes. How's that MMORPG for building a persistent, large-scale popular fiction? (A term I'm stealing shamelessly from Jason Craft, by the way.) --Brad Hicks had some interesting things to say about the difficulty of role-playing therein, which seems to indicate maybe not so much, but that's just an MMORPG with superheroes--and the mistake to make here is to look only for stuff in other media that has superheroes in it, and not stuff in other media that the typical target Platonic archetypal audience is reading or watching or playing instead of superhero comics. --I think MMORPGs are an ideal form for building a large world that you only ever see from this corner or that, but there are so many different corners to see it from...

[Hmm. The URL bbCode doesn't seem to work.]
Kate Nepveu
21.  Lenny Bailes
Friday July 25, 2008 01:07pm EDT
Good essay, Jim! I'd be curious to read your take on the current state of DC superhero books. Now that DC has tried turning "monthly pamphlet comics" into "weekly pamphlet comics," it seems to me that the "ex-fans and Asperger's cases" *may* be spending more than half their time winking at the audience.

Arguably, Grant Morrison is now trying to translate the Christopher Nolan "Memento" experience from film to comics in Batman. And I have quite a bit of respect for the work of Denny O'Neill in the '80s, along with large portions of the collective opus of Paul Dini, Keith Giffen, Jim DeMatteis, and Kurt Busiek. Everything Darwyn Cooke turns out is still good to golden. But that said, I find most of the current weekly/bi-weekly DC product to be disjointed, uninteresting and poorly drawn.

My take on the root problem is that most of the current DC artist-writer teams, (unlike the ones that prevailed in the previous half century) aren't integrating text and panel art into a smoothly flowing, kinetic reading experience. My guess is that the pressure to produce product on a weekly/biweekly basis instead of monthly/bi-monthly/quarterly may be a large contributing factor to this.

Or, of course, I may just be getting old and senile: unable to make sense out of this generation's cutting-edge storytelling styles.
Jim Henley
22.  Supplanter
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 01:26pm EDT
Lenny, it's funny you say that. I find I'm reading a lot more Marvels than DCs this decade. DC's event series especially annoy me because they keep saying that the point of it all, from Identity Crisis forward is to set the official continuity for the next decade or whatever, and I'm like: Guys, that's like trying to sell theater tickets for the set construction rather than the play. Just change the continuity, give us a quick explanation, and get going already.
Chris Meadows
23.  Robotech_Master
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 01:29pm EDT
@Kiplet: Well, as a long-time City of Heroes player, I have to admit, not so good. The storylines within the game itself are interesting, but it suffers from a big problem common to all MMOs that I know of: everyone gets the same storylines (quests). So everyone, at one time or another, has to arrest Evil Bad Arch Villain Dude, and the conceit of the game is that "you" are the only one doing it, while all those other heroes are wandering around doing other random hero stuff. So if you took it at face value, not only does the supervillain prison have a revolving door on it, but the supervillains are all incredibly dumb because they keep pulling the same dumb stunts over and over again. :P You end up having to ignore it for the sake of the game.

There are people who happily write fanfiction around it, disregarding as many of those inconsistencies as they can (for example, http://www.rpcongress.com). And make no mistake, some of the story elements in CoH are decently original, or at least used in original ways. But in terms of creating an overall story, with player participation driving and directing it, not so much.
Dave Robinson
24.  DaveRobinson
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 01:59pm EDT
I still read more DC than Marvel, though I'm very much in the minority. My six-year old daughter's favorite character is Spider-Man though she likes Captain Marvel almost as much.

She only gets DC because I have problems finding Marvel suitable for a six-year old.

Having said that her siblings mostly read Manga, and while her brother will sometimes read comics he only reads mine and doesn't buy his own. He'll buy Manga though.
Jim Henley
25.  Supplanter
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 02:34pm EDT
Dave, what about the Marvel Adventures line. Do those not work for you as kids comics? Or does your daughter just not go for them?
Melissa Singer
26.  masinger
VIEW ALL BY · Friday July 25, 2008 03:30pm EDT
I don't know about Dave's daughter, but mine detested the few Marvel Adventures books she tried. She felt they talked down to her. She may already have been too old in terms of the demands she placed on reading matter, as she was more like 8 or 9 rather than Dave's daughter's 6. Dave's right, though, there's not a lot of Marvel that suitable for a 6-yo. Or even a 10-yo.

For a while my daughter liked some of the Johnny DC books, but she tired of the marginalia in Teen Titans Go! quickly and disliked the fact that most of the Johnny DC books, at least at the time she was reading them, did not have continuing stories. And overall she found them a bit silly.

She tried Justice League for a bit, since it features many of her favorite heroes (Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman), but felt that the female characters rarely got enough stage time and gave it up in frustration. She really liked the latest incarnation of Wonder Woman until, a few issues, in it seemed to turn into all fights and that was boring.

Unfortunately, once she has dropped something, it's hard to get her to go back, because there is so much other material competing for her attention. And like many people, she'd rather buy things that she knows will make her happy (Ranma 1/2, Legendz, Fairy Tale, Kitchen Princess, Emma, etc.) than spend too much of her limited funds on experiments. Her allowance only goes so far.
Kate Nepveu
27.  Mike Kozlowski
Friday July 25, 2008 04:01pm EDT
The eight-year-old boy in this household LOVES LOVES LOVES the Marvel Adventures books. He reads them every night, and when he goes on trips, they're the books he packs up to take with him.

And, having read a few myself, I don't think they're talking down to anyone. They're not in any particular continuity (which I am geek enough to be bothered by), but they're solid entertainment -- almost certainly as good as (well, realistically: BETTER THAN) the comics I read as a kid in the '80s.
Kate Nepveu
28.  Andromeda
Saturday July 26, 2008 06:05pm EDT
Orchard: I teach at a boys' middle school, and the spectacle-heavy movies are huge in their conversation. There are some manga fans, but a lot of them are the artists -- kids who can participate in manga not only by reading, but also by drawing. But the spectacle-heavy movies are for everyone. (I say "spectacle-heavy", not just "superhero", because you hear the same kinds of conversations around the rash of sword & sandal movies over the last few years.)
eric orchard
29.  orchard
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday July 26, 2008 06:07pm EDT
@andromeda my point is that the comics are more meaningful to the boys who read them. They are very cynical about movies.
Jeffrey Richard
30.  neutronjockey
VIEW ALL BY · Sunday July 27, 2008 01:27am EDT
@masinger , Well you know if it's an issue of keeping the kid's attention and not enough spellbinding matierial... you could always acquire some awesome super hero novels... ;)
Melissa Singer
31.  masinger
VIEW ALL BY · Monday July 28, 2008 10:47am EDT
@neutronjockey: Believe it or not, I haven't ever gotten many superhero submissions (this is NOT a call for submissions, lol), not when I was working primarily in sf&f, and not now, when I work in a wider variety of genres. What I've learned from the few pieces I've seen is that it's really hard to write believable superhero fiction, especially without pictures.

My daughter likes The Adventures of Ordinary Boy (I'm still learning how to make links work, sorry: http://www.harpercollinschildrens.com/HarperChildrens/Kids/BookDetail.aspx?isbn13=9780060774646) but feels that the girl character is not entirely believable and a bit too stereotyped--at 12, this child would not be likely to hold tea parties and play with dolls. But it's not bad superhero fiction for kids, especially the second book.
Kate Nepveu
32.  bartkid
Tuesday July 29, 2008 12:46pm EDT
>Manga... offering hours of value.

I have yet to read a 200-page manga in less than a half-hour, except maybe some Lone Wolf & Cub volumes which had extended endnotes.
Melissa Singer
33.  masinger
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday July 29, 2008 01:30pm EDT
It takes my kid between a half hour and an hour, depending on the manga, to read a new volume, but she tends to go back and reread the previous one or two in series when she gets something new.

And once she's done, she draws and writes stuff inspired by what she's read. So, hours of value, in more than one way.
Kate Nepveu
34.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
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Kate Nepveu
35.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
mick semiquaver moule ramarama abidi cynocrambaceae amoeboidism counternarrative
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http://lsotsetcysab.com
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http://wkoltzgkrzqf.com
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Kate Nepveu
36.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
mick semiquaver moule ramarama abidi cynocrambaceae amoeboidism counternarrative
qdbjd lrptr
http://lsotsetcysab.com
tmnhmb gnpis
http://wkoltzgkrzqf.com
wscvavc dbfu
http://bfwhybe.com
ietnv irjfsc
http://kdcmhf.com
Kate Nepveu
37.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
mick semiquaver moule ramarama abidi cynocrambaceae amoeboidism counternarrative
qdbjd lrptr
http://lsotsetcysab.com
tmnhmb gnpis
http://wkoltzgkrzqf.com
wscvavc dbfu
http://bfwhybe.com
ietnv irjfsc
http://kdcmhf.com
Kate Nepveu
38.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
mick semiquaver moule ramarama abidi cynocrambaceae amoeboidism counternarrative
qdbjd lrptr
http://lsotsetcysab.com
tmnhmb gnpis
http://wkoltzgkrzqf.com
wscvavc dbfu
http://bfwhybe.com
ietnv irjfsc
http://kdcmhf.com
Kate Nepveu
39.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
mick semiquaver moule ramarama abidi cynocrambaceae amoeboidism counternarrative
qdbjd lrptr
http://lsotsetcysab.com
tmnhmb gnpis
http://wkoltzgkrzqf.com
wscvavc dbfu
http://bfwhybe.com
ietnv irjfsc
http://kdcmhf.com
Kate Nepveu
40.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
mick semiquaver moule ramarama abidi cynocrambaceae amoeboidism counternarrative
qdbjd lrptr
http://lsotsetcysab.com
tmnhmb gnpis
http://wkoltzgkrzqf.com
wscvavc dbfu
http://bfwhybe.com
ietnv irjfsc
http://kdcmhf.com
Kate Nepveu
41.  John Cantrell
Saturday September 20, 2008 04:57pm EDT
mick semiquaver moule ramarama abidi cynocrambaceae amoeboidism counternarrative
qdbjd lrptr
http://lsotsetcysab.com
tmnhmb gnpis
http://wkoltzgkrzqf.com
wscvavc dbfu
http://bfwhybe.com
ietnv irjfsc
http://kdcmhf.com
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