Thu
Jan 10 2013 1:00pm

Rothfuss Reread: Speculative Summary 17: A Break in the Line

Rothfuss Re-read Speculative Summary 17: A Break in the LineMy riduculously detailed reread of Patrick Rothfuss’s Kingkiller Chronicles is over, but the speculation goes on. I’m going to post the occasional speculative summary of cool things posted since last time. Spoilers for all of The Wise Man’s Fear and The Name of the Wind—these discussions assume you’ve read all of both books, and frankly they won’t make the slightest bit of sense if you haven’t. But we welcome new people who have read the books and want to geek out about them. This post is full of spoilers, please don’t venture beyond the cut unless you want them.

Abbreviations: NW = The Name of the Wind. WMF = The Wise Man’s Fear. D3 = Day Three, the forthcoming final volume. K = Kvothe or Kote when I can’t figure out what to call him and I’m feeling Kafkaesque. MT: Myr Tariniel. D = Denna, 4C = Four Corners, CTH—that thing I can’t spell! IID3Y = Is it Day Three Yet?

Useful links: The Sleeping Under the Wagon post. The re-read index. The map. The timeline. Imaginary Linguistics.

Pat has posted the Currency Widget. That’ll be going into the permanent links. When looking at it, also note the extra information in the titles. This was greeted with much rejoicing—especially the information that Yll and Modeg have currencies and the following interesting comparison from Matt Pe:

I’m finding a lot of evidence that Vintish Currency is at the very least strongly based on Spanish Currency circa 1850. Interestingly, Isabella the II changed the Spanish currency system in 1859 from a base 8 system to a base 10 system. I’m foreshadowing with that comment.

Let’s start with the economic system before 1850.

In Spanish Currency at that time there was a coin called a Doubloon. This coin got its name because it had a portrait of Ferdinand and Isabella on it (i.e Royals). The value of this coin changed but in 1849 was worth 80 reales de vellon. As it happens, there was a one reales de vellon coin and it was called “a bit”. There was also a two reales de vellon coin commonly called “a quarterbit”. You’ll note that these coins exist in Vintish Currency also.

Given that in Vintish Currency; eighty bits equals a Royal and two bits equals a Quarterbit, I think it at least strongly suggests that a Vintish Royal is a Spanish Doubloon, a Vintish Quarterbit is a Spanish two reales coin( aka a Spanish Quarterbit) and a Bit is a one reales coin(aka a Spanish Bit). This much I’m certain about.

In Spanish Currency at this time, there was also a coin called a Spanish Dollar otherwise known as “a piece of eight” because it was made up of eight reales. However, it was made up of eight reales de plata fuerte, each of which is equal to two and a half reales de vellon (as of 1737). This would make it worth twenty reales de vellon and would make it equivalent to the Silver Noble. Given that Reales de Plata Fuerte were silver, it makes sense that the Silver Noble is made up of these reales.

This is as far as I’ve gotten which means I still don’t fully understand how the Ha’Penny, Penny, Round or Reel in Vintish Currency correlates with Spanish. Still, I think that the definitions for Bit, Quarter Bit and Royal are solid and I think that the one for Noble is correct. Even if I’m wrong about the Noble one, then the value of the piece of eight would be equivalent to the Round which means one of the two pieces of Vintish Currrency is explained.

I don’t have all the answers but I think it’s enough to strongly support my theory.

There’s also a brilliant discussion on the previous summary post about hierarchies of trust, which I’m not going to quote because I’d have to quote all of it. But here’s StevenHalter’s summary:

Hierarchies of narrative trust—All of the discussion is good here. Skarpi’s comment that all of the tales are true can be unpacked a bit more in that what we have is a work of fiction and so is completely false altogether also.

PR has given us a very internally consistent world and so we have some expectations of D3 maintaining that consistency. This allows us to attempt the various thought experiments that we have attempted as we go and to try to reason through the clues that have been given to date with some expectations of them being useful.

However, we don’t have D3 and so almost any of our expectations could prove to be false and parts of the story that we think true turn out to be not and vice versa.

PR has set this up so that we as readers may have our expectations overturned, but has also set things up so that Kvothe in the narrative (along with others) may be undergoing radical changes in their own perspectives within the story line. Good stuff.

Indeed.

Where was Caluptena?

What we know about Caluptena is that it was destroyed by fire and that a lot of learning was lost with it. It’s been mentioned here and there in different contexts.

Aesculapius compares it with the library at Alexandria:

Caluptena always brought to mind that great wonder of antiquity, the library of Alexandria. I love the clear implication that so much ancient knowledge has been lost from the 4C because of an act of wanton destruction that occurred during a fit of imperialist expansion.

and this fits my general impression. It’s something that happened a long time ago but in historical, not legendary time. To use Arliden’s analogy, we’re looking at grandchildren’s eyes here I think.

JohnPoint thinks it’s the old University:

A not unwise guess would be that the University is built on the ruins of Caluptena. We know that:

1) the University built on the ruins of something (the Underthing, etc.)

2) there was an ancient place-of-learning there (as per Elodin’s discussion of naming and the teaching of it) which would likely have included massive libraries or archives

3) the reminants are stored in the Archives, and would not have had to be transferred far.

I know we have (relatively well substantated) speculation that Imre/University is located where Belen was, but do we have anything stating that Belen and Caluptena are in different locations?

We don’t know for sure, but it doesn’t seem to fit the feel of the way Kvothe talks about it in the context of the Archives. Of couse, he wouldn’t necessarily know. There’s certainly the ruin of something in the Underthing, something that connects to the Archives through a back way. I don’t think we can dismiss this. There has been enough time for Caluptena to rise on the ruins of Belen and the University on the ruins of Caluptena.

Thistlepong thinks it doesn’t feel right, and Aesculapius thinks the Underthing is older:

. The OLD university (or whatever it was, and potentially therefore the Underthing...?) is described in such a way as to imply that it is *significantly* older than the current University; it’s hard to say exactly but Elodin’s description suggests a type of arcane knowledge more akin to that of the Knowers and Shapers of the Creation War than anything directly related to the University of Kvothe’s time. It could, however, have been a centre of learning that grew out of the remnants of the *aftermath* of the Creation War—and that was certainly what I thought Elodin was implying. The current University would then be whatever had grown and evolved from that start over the many centuries that followed, possibly even with interruptions that set back its growth from time to time because of the waxing and waning of politics, religion and superstition that could easily be directed against a centre of arcane learning.

Thistlepong:

I tend to think any contiguous throughline from CWE (Creation War Era) to the narrative is unlikely, whether it be the University, the Taborlin story, Tecam, or whatever. It stretches credulity especially in light of the actual history we get going back 2000 years with blips and rumors a bit further back. The Adem, essentially another incongruous civilization, seem to be the only exception, and even they seem to have lost most of the intervenng details. So I doubt when Elodin says “ancient university” he means much more than, ahem, a couple millenia.

Aesculapius goes on to suggest Caluptena might be on Yll:

For my money, Caluptena is (or rather was) on Yll and was destroyed as part of the invasion of Yll by the Aturan Empire. My gut feeling, with perhaps a little guidance from some circumstantial evidence, is that Yll was a last outpost of pre-Creation War civilisation and knowledge, and the library at Caluptena was at the centre of this.

The crushing invasion of Yll could simply have been part of general Imperial expansionism but, in the context of the stories and the things we’ve discussed about information relating to the Amyr and the Chandrian being censored, hidden or destroyed, then I’m almost forced to contemplate this as a much more deliberate act intended to wipe out both academic learning / recorded knowledge and also wider cultural knowledge. Why else so completely raze a civilisation and scatter its people and knowledge?

I’m struck by the fact that both Yllish knots and Adem hand gestures (and their (apparently) down-beat verbal tradition) all seem to be centred on the avoidance of things otherwise common to verbal linguistic traditions—perhaps only to be expected by societies with cultural memories of the destructive potential of overt expressive naming?

This is very interesting, but it also feels wrong to me because of the Alexandrian analogy. Caluptena looks like a Latin/Temic word, and the way they talk about it sounds as if it’s a site of their own civilization, not one that feels alien and odd like the way they think about Yll. This is a woolly impression that I can’t defend, but there you are.

But you know, Shalter, in a completely different context, talking about Bredon beer, in another thread suggests:

I am now picturing Yll in the role of Greece to the Aturan Rome. Thus, the Small Kingdoms could have had Yllish roots as colonies, much like there were numerous Greek colonies throughout the Mediteranean.

In which case, my argument evaporates.

Aesculapius unpacking some thinking:

Well, if the Lackless line is sufficiently ancient that the box potentially goes back to the times of Lanre, Lyra and Selitos AND the box has carvings that appear to be Yllish then why would it be such a leap for the Library of Caluptena (and the records of ancient times that it holds) to be in Yll...?

That was part of my thinking in considering isolated Yll as a last outpost of the ancient civilisation. I would agree that it would be too much of a stretch to consider anything beyond perhaps the isolated culture of the Adem and the Seven and the (true) Amyr to have any sort of true contiguous history right back to pre-Creation War days. Even the sort of last remnant in Yll that I was considering would be much changed and faded as a culture by the time of the invasion, perhaps to the extent that the true importance of the contents of the Library had been largely forgotten too.

If you think of the invasion as being some sort of “clearance” led by deeper forces than just the contemporary leadership of the Empire then maybe, just maybe, the were biding their time, waiting for the last true knowledge of Naming to die out before launching the invasion...? (Yes, I know that’s stretching the point a little). I’m very much inclined to agree about the relative age of the term “ancient” as far as Elodin is concerned; let’s face it, if we were talking about two thousand years ago then we’d be back in the times of the Roman Empire in Europe. That’s old enough to count as ancient! I certainly don’t think the current University has a truly continuous history back to much older times; rather, I imagine lots of “partial” histories as survivors of other centres of arcane learning slowly gravitated, at various times, towards somewhere they had heard of that might still survive as a centre for arcanists. The current university may even have begun as an “underground” movement (literally?!) in the Underthing, the ruins of a much older but well-remembered site, before being strong enought to surface and begin to construct its own buildings, beginning, perhaps, with places like the Archives (although I detect some implications that the Archives might actually be somewhat older...?).

I freely admit some of this is more than a little speculative but the link between the Leoclos, the box, Yll, ancient records and genealogies and therefore, potentially, Caluptena doesn’t seem to be any more of a stretch than some of the other links we’ve been musing over!

Interestingly, on the original map, there’s a place-marker dot on the island (?) of Yll, directly opposite Tarbean on the South side of the Reft. K comments on how much the Aturan Empire ground Yll to dust and how little currently remains. I’m guessing that Yll once included ALL of that island/peninsula and that the unnamed dot is the site of Caluptena. It means that the move to Imre/Belen wouldn’t have been such a great leap for refugees from Yll if there was already rumour of, say, arcanists in hiding there, and makes me wonder about the link from the end of the Great Stone Road at Imre, down river to Tarbean and then straight across the Reft to Yll.

and then, a very interesting further thought:

Just a thought: maybe the Yllish knots are only Yllish by association? Perhaps that’s just the place that they were mostly known to come from because that’s where they were last used and where the last great collection was?

What if the story-knots far pre-date Yll as a means of recording information? PR doesn’t create stuff randomly; we know the power of Naming and the potential for magic that becomes true if you write it down. My hunch is still that there is something in the nature of the story-knots in particular that allows the recording of information about the true nature of things (ie Naming!) but in a way that is somehow protected from the power of Naming. Thus the knots could have been in widespread use across Ergen but known only to K (and therefore us) through Yll.

This makes me wonder if there’s more to the metaphor of Jax / Iax unravelling the knot than we already think? I also wonder how this ties into the knotwork we now know to be on D’s ring...?

I wonder about that too. It’s possible that this is the case, and the knots on the box aren’t Yllish but date from an early period of widespread knot-use, without Caluptena being in Yll.

Pat deliberately refused to answer about the location of Caluptena when we did the admissions questions, saying it would be a spoiler. He also said that Kvothe would visit Renere, the three part city. This seems to me like another possible candidate for Lost Caluptena.

Cinder and the Sithe

Drew/TOh has a theory about why the Sithe they didn’t intercept Kvothe by the tree:

I had a theory for why the Sithe may have not been guarding the Ctheah. Maybe they had been drawn away to go after Cinder in the bandit camp (perhaps from the prayers during the fight, especially since the moon was closer to 4c, making crossing over easier). Since time passes (arguably) longer in the 4c rather than the fae, perhaps they hadn’t returned yet.

It makes sense the Sithe would be trying to kill the seven, especially if they were products of the influence of the Ctheah. Clearly, they would be trying to remove Ctheah’s influence from the world by killing parties that had been directly affected. (Additionally, this might explain why they’d send all of them instead of leaving some behind, so as to increase their chances).

And to build on that, maybe they’d been drawn off by Marten’s prayer, maybe they were coming and maybe they were coming when the Chandrian killed the troupe too. Maybe they powered Kvothe’s lightning bolt or did something to make it work without killing him, and maybe Cinder fled them the same way they fled the other time. We do know specifically that Haliax is keeping Cinder safe from the Amyr, the Sithe and the singers, so this would make a great deal of sense. As for why they haven’t got back in the time since, well, time is variable between worlds or maybe they’re in hot pursuit.

Aesculapius has an interesting thought:

“Why cant’ you find this Cinder? Well, that’s an interesting why. You’d think a man with coal-black eyes would make an impression when he stops to buy a drink. How can it be that you haven’t managed to catch wind of him in all this time?”
Have we considered compiling a list of all the people who have bought. K a drink up to the point at which he meets the Cthaeh? Is there a candidate in there for a Chandrian in disguise...?

That’s a very specific phrase to use; I know we all feel that the Cthaeh’s reference to meeting Cinder “twice in a lifetime” refers to the events relating to the attack on the troupe and then the bandits in the Eld but I wonder if it’s worth looking at who has bought K drinks all the same?

That would be an exhausting task. We don’t know all the people who bought drinks for Kvothe in the Eolian even the first time, and there were lots of times. Apart from “a zillion fans buy him drinks” I can’t think of any significant drink buying except from his friends—Sim, Wil, Sovoy and Manet—and Deoch.

Amyr

Audion wonders if Arliden might have been an Amyr:

This is a bit off topic, but I was re-reading things and has anyone mentioned the fact that K’s father might have been Amyr? Look at the facts, he tells K when he ripped his shirt it was “all for the greater good” and he DID marry a Lackless if what we think about K’s mother is true. Then him writing his song makes a lot of sense, even if it was just something an Amyr put him up to.

I’d always seen that remark as just one more example of the t-shirt theory, pertaining to Kvothe and not to his father. But you could be right. Though it doesn’t fit with Lorren—I think only one of them can be an Amyr, assuming the secret Amyr know about each other.

Imaginary Linguistics

Oliver Stein has a new thought on our old friend “rhinata”:

Rhin is shape. Ata is man. Ta is man, but actually changes the Rhin part— Man-shaped. As such, A Rhinata is a Shaper, and the Rhinta are man-shaped.

Could be!

Thistlepong Finds Alchemical Evidence For What King Kvothe Kills

No, really! This is so cool. First, the “calanthis” the red and yellow sipquicks that Kvothe uses to test Caudicus’s poison medicine, and which is also the name of the royal house of Vintas.

Having them thus connected, it’s incredibly interesting to note the opening action of the Cthaeh.

But my eye was caught by a single large red one, crimson shot through with a faint tracery of metallic gold. Its wings were bigger than my spread hand, and as I watched it fluttered deeper into the foliage in search of a fresh flower to light upon.

Suddenly, its wings were no longer moving in concert. They tumbled apart and fluttered separately to the ground like falling autumn leaves.

I can’t really see it as a coincidence. Kvothe’s already killed calanthis, colored red and yellow. Now we have the Cthaeh opening with a precisely color-coded killing. “The red ones offend my aesthetic.”

As the conversation progresses the Cthaeh encourages Kvothe to range further afield, to travel to the edge of the map for information. Part of his decision to go to Ademre is based on this. And there, ultimately, he receives the sword. He becomes the clever, thoughtless armed sixteen year old Abenthy discussed with him.

I think the Cthaeh set Kvothe on a collision course with Roderic. I think one of its machinations is Roderic’s death. I think Saicere is in Kvothe’s hands for killing, specifically for breaking the Calanthis line.

But, y’know, don’t take my word for it. As always, look to the text. The background we need is all there.

Ever the good friend, Wilem stepped in with a distracting question. “What is that pause you keep doing?” he asked. “It’s like you can’t catch your breath.”

“I asked that too,” Fela said, smiling.

“It’s something they use in Eld Vintic verse,” Sim explained. “It’s a break in the line called a caesura.”

Note that it’s Eld Vintic verse. Note that Calanthis is the Eld Vintic name for flits. Note that the royal line, Alveron’s word chosen rather than family, bears an Eld Vintic name. Caesura is meant to break an Eld Vintic line.

There’s more, including the alchemical requirement for the third book to be red, but that’s enough for me. I am absolutely convinced. This is exactly the kind of thing Pat does. Roderic is the king killed. I expect it’ll be Ambrose’s fault, though I retain hope that he may kill Ambrose too. (“Granddad? Who kills Humperdinck? Is it Inigo or who?”)

GBrell also likes this butterfly-king theory, and adds:

I will say, however, that if this is correct, I’m now inclined to think that the battle in Imre is separate from the Kingkilling. Whether it’s the obvious (Ambrose), the fated (Cinder) or some third party we’ve yet to meet, I still don’t know.

JohnPoint:

The Imre event could also be the “fought an angel to gain his heart’s desire” part of Kvothe’s legend.

Totally could.

Thistlepong:

I’ve been an advocate of separation of king and Imre for awhile now. Kvothe’s kind of a murderous little terror, so I’m not worried about collapsing stories together. And it’s, um, unlikely a king would be there.

It really is. But Ambrose is often there.

I also believe that when we have D3 we will be able to look back at the butterfly slaughter and identify all of them. It had never occurred to me they were anything other than scenery, butterfly effect, and possibly a connection to Felurian, but I am now absolutely sure that I will one day be able to put names to all of them. IID3Y?

Who Did Iax Talk To?

Bubbleset wonders:

My first thought is that the Old Man Jax/Iax spoke to was the Cthaeh. It’s his final half-hearted “no, don’t go” as Jax leaves—as if he knows what he’s just set Jax on the road to doing and isn’t interested in stopping it. And beyond the Tinker, which seems far more unlikely to me, he’s the only other character in the Jax tale. But the ties to Teccam seem equally clear. A man out chasing the wind, listening to the world and trying to understand it, and speaking from a cave.

My crazy thought is—what if they both are true? What if the philosopher Teccam of yore is also the Cthaeh of today? We know Teccam was incredibly wise, a teacher and philosopher, and “knew the shape of the world”. We know the Cthaeh is also in some ways omniscient and sees all, though he supposedly uses that power to create the worst outcomes. What if Lanre and Iax visited the wise philsopher, gained great knowledge, and then went on to do terrible things with that knowledge because they lacked wisdom. Teccam became the scapegoat and was trapped in his current prison, where now he maliciously plots. It also explains the Cthaeh’s hatred of the Chrandrian. I don’t completely buy it, but I think the character of Teccam still has some role to play in this story.

Interesting. I also assumed that Teccam has some D3 significance, but I hadn’t thought of that.

And Robocarp collects up everything we know about Teccam:

Still, I think Teccam deserves a closer look for his potential role in the more recent historical period. Here is a summary of everything we know about Teccam (that I could track down):

* Lived barefoot in a cave. (This is his “classic pose”; it could be apocryphal.)

* Taught groups of students at his cave; presumably the students sought him out.

* Statue of Teccam in front of Hollows at the University. Also a stained-glass window in the Master hall depicting him. Both depicting “classic pose”.

* Wrote Theophany, which seems to be a fundamental philosphical text, sort of like Plato’s Republic would be to us.

* Theophany contains this advice: “There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in a storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”

* In Theophany he defines a secret as true knowledge actively concealed, describes them as painful treasures of the mind, and distinguishes between secrets of the mouth and secrets of the heart. Simplifying, the former are secrets you want to tell, the latter secrets you want to bury in your heart. Seems to be one of Teccam’s less popular ideas.

* Wrote Underlying Principles. Not a long book, but thick. Assigned to Kvothe as pre-reading for Elodin’s Naming course, which means heaven knows what’s actually in it.

* Had a theory of narrative septagy. Septagy seems to be a word PR made up, since a Google search on the word only brings up the quote from NotW. My best guess is that it’s related to “septage”, the stuff inside a septic tank. The obvious thought is that Teccam theorizes that as stories pass from person to person, they acquire waste, but I think it’s more subtle than that. In a septic tank, bacteria is actually used to treat the waste, so the theory could be that a story has an essential truth that second-hand details won’t necessarily derail.

* Opined that wine is the only alcoholic beverage suitable for reminiscence (mainly because it’s relatively low alcohol content).

* Claimed that nothing in the world is harder than convincing someone of an unfamiliar truth.

* Said, “No man is brave that has never walked a hundred miles” and some more cool stuff about how much you learn on the road.

* Did NOT say, “Too much study harms the student”. That was Ertram the Wiser.

* Also did not say, “...some things are past valuing: laughter, land, and love are never bought.” That was Gregan the Lesser.

* Is credited with inventing or describing some kind of winch (that relies on simple sygaldry, since it’s made by lower-tier students in the Fishery).

It seems doubtful to me that Teccam was really a hermit teaching from a cave; the very fact that Kote calls it a “classic pose” suggests that it’s a bit of apocryphal legend about the guy. That, however, seems to be the biggest similarity between him and the Cthaeh. Teccam’s philosophy doesn’t seem to have much in common with the Cthaeh, even in an ironic sense. (Anyone else have thoughts about this?)

There are a couple eyebrow-raisers though. Teccam’s mention of “a night with no moon” is maybe a hint that he knows a little more than he lets on: he’s not just doing thought experiments but is giving advice based on special knowledge he has. (One wonders if that’s one of his secrets of the heart.) Also, Teccam’s winch connects Teccam to magic, and since it’s sygaldry it connects him to the (new) University. Assuming the winch is something properly credited to him, of course.

Nice to have all that together.

Death and the Afterlife

Sahirioth got this going:

What do we know about beliefs concerning death and the afterlife among the people of the Four Corners? It occurs to me that if everyone has a true/deep name, then perhaps they also have a soul (or the name is their ‘soul’). If so, where does it disappear to upon death? Lyra brought Lanre back from the dead, supposedly, so if there’s such a thing as souls in the FC, it can’t just dissolve upon death, right? Do the Tehlins believe in ‘Heaven’? Do other religious groups? Do people in general? Does Kvothe? Are there any indications, in the novels, that such a place as Heaven (similar to the Judeo-Christian notion) exists? Which begs the question: since the Faen realm is linked to the Four Corners’ world, are there other, ‘parallel’ planes of existence/worlds which are hinted at in the novel?

Thistlepong has a great deal of scholarship on the subject:

The bones are that heaven and hell exist, at least in language. Hell is not only referenced as a place, but as a place in relation to God. And Lanre is rumored to have suicided in order to search for Lyra in the land of the dead as well as having returned from death.

Hell is Present in all manner of cliches: /verb/ like hell, /five W’s/ the hell, hell/ish//ly/, /verb/ the hell out of /noun/, make your life (a) hell, like hell, hell (as introjection), hell to pay, hell of a /noun/, /verb/ as hell, chance in hell... And this ugly one delivered by Hemme:

“Now that the gates of hell are closed,” Hemme said in his normal, rougher tones. “We can begin.”

(NWp274)

So, hell is linguistically pervasive in the same manner as it is in the contemporary United States. While we can’t draw specific conclusions from this, we can infer a widespread conception of hell as a referent. Hemme’s quote firms up hell as a place and nudges the Tehlin Church a bit closer to historical Abrahamic traditions.

Still, it could be just a story that the metropolitan secular populations deploy as a habit; again like contemporary speech. Daeonica presents hell not only as a specific place, but one with the common fiery staging.

“It was like watching Tarsus bursting out of hell. You came through the fire and I knew everything was going to be alright.”

(NW502)

We don’t get too many lines from the play, but we do know that Tarsus sells his soul, ends up in hell at some point, and leaves again in what reads like an escape. Again, we have to infer from context the details of the transaction, but the purchasing party is almost certainly a demon. That’s another nudge towards our conventional picture.

It occurs to me that I implicated Tehlinism without any real backup, mostly ‘cause I knew it was coming.

“Nell, what in God’s hell are you doing letting him up? I swear you haven’t got the sense God gave a dog.”

(NWp642)

Trebon is a small town with a big church in the heart of Tehlin country. Kvothe’s trick with the wheel suggests divine intervention to them. That’s all a way of asserting that God, here, is Tehlu. God’s hell, then, is also Tehlu’s. I think we can safely say that according to the most widespread an influential religion in the Four Corners, hell exists. The souls of the victims of demons, willing or otherwise, and probably the wicked end up there after death.

Heaven is a bit trickier. It shows up once in the entire work to date.

“Someone half clever might dub you Pitch or Scuttle, ill-favored names. Or Slate, a sedentary name. Heaven forbid you end up Blackie, that’s an ill-fitting name for a prince like you.”

(NWp359)

If anything, it’s the same cliche use as hell which might lead to the same conclusions. I’m almost inclined to suggest it’s accidental, like a typo that never got excised. We give a lot of credit to PR with respect to word choice and take him at his word about obsessing over it. But we also know, with confirmation, that errors slip into the books.

So, with one inconclusive appearance and nothing at all to corroborate our assumptions when churches, angels, and hell are present, I’m guessing there’s no heaven. We encounter quite a few Tehlins, and even a version of Tehlu himself in Trapis’s story. Heaven, indeed any succor in or from a life lived virtuously, is notably absent.

We know Trapis is a Tehlin apostate, of course. However, that’s the version of the story Pat chooses to share. Tehlu, and by extension Tehlinism, merely threatens and bullies folk into right livin’.

Now, is all that just a story, or are there souls?

We know the soul-as-commodity exists in a well regarded fiction and with respect to the popular conception of demons. It’s a thing that can be bartered or stolen. It’s also present interchangebly with person in phrases like “didn’t a soul” or “good soul.” Typical cliched uses include “bottom of his soul” and “ out his soul.” More rarified yet still material are Kvothe’s metaphorical “my lute, my tangible soul” and his likening of Denna’s voice to a portrait of her soul.

Somewhat different from the fungible soul is the personal soul, my soul. Simmon makes an oblique jesting reference to his soul. Skarpi, however, in a Tehlin context, seems to take his soul rather seriously. Alveron refers to his romantically.

None of this really tells us anything about the relationship of the soul to the body or an afterlife, though. There are, luckily, a couple lines that suggest both.

“Poetry is a song without music,” I said loftily. “A song without music is like a body without a soul.”

(WMFp261)

Here Kvothe’s just being a bit douchey, but it establishes plainly the concept of a dual nature. It’s also not isolated.
Some thought fire would frighten him off, some thought salt scattered on the grass would keep him away, some thought iron would cut the strings that held the soul to his dead body.

(WMFp281)

This is a nested reference in story within a story within a story that’s culturally insensitve to everyone but the Ruh, in this case Vints, but the multicultural support for a soul and a body is there. Between those two quotes, we can tease out that the soul is necessary for true life and separates from the body at death.

If only there were a way to determine whether this was all linguistic artifact and superstitious dogma, right? I think there is. All of the above suggests a human belief in the soul. But the individual with the most interesting lines about the soul isn’t human; it’s Bast.

“How odd to watch a mortal kindle

Then to dwindle day by day.

Knowing their bright souls are tinder

And the wind will have its way.

Would I could my own fire lend.

What does your flickering portend?”

(NWp44)

We could probably devote a whole summary to torturing meaning out of his song, but the significant bit is that the being from parallel plane (or ekpyrotic brane) appears to believe in the human soul, too. And, by implication, his own.
“I leave it to Pater Leoden to distribute the remainder of my worldly goods among the parish, as, being an immoral soul, I will have no further need of them.”

(NWp680)

Bast’s actually lying here and probably poking a bit of fun at the local priest. On the other hand he’s acknowledging himself as a soul, rather than being in possession of one.

That’s an arduous slog to conclude that there’s probably a real immaterial soul for both human and faen. There might be an afterlife, indiscriminate and likely entirely grim. To be honest, though, I don’t find the characters to act as if there’s either.

A Fox:

I have to admit I had always just subbed Faen for Hell. Tehlins believe that Fae are demons, it was simply the next step.

‘Gates of hell’ vs waystones.

Tehlu’s path, choosing the right way. Mortal vs Faen. (Mortal used loosely, you know what I mean!) Good path casting out demons/fae, embracing the tehlin faith...bad way in support of demons/fae leading to hell/faen.

On Soul: Shamble-men, notably the soldier that had previously robbed Chronicler. It would seem as if they ‘cut the strings’ (Puppet?) of the soul, seperating it from the body they then inhabit. Or at least displaces the soul. The body also appears quite dead, bar the animation, hints at rotting, impervious to wounds....can a mortal bosy survive without a soul?

“I leave it to Pater Leoden to distribute the remainder of my worldly goods among the parish, as, being an immoral soul, I will have no further need of them.” (NWp680)

Putting aside Bast’s joking. This does seem to imply that if he WAS a moral soul (in a tehlin context) that he would have need of his goods again. Implying rebirth....?

The doors of the mind seems to be an older left over, dealing in tangent with the ability to manifest power as it does, and the fact that Lanre knew and was barred from them. It also seems it was this door that he was rumoured to have ventured through in pursuit of Lyra. And, as Haliax, cannot now go through.

I would be very curious to hear of the death practises beliefs of non tehlin countries; Adem, Ceald, Yll, Modeg. And somewhat of the Fae, though it seems their longevtivity/immortality would negate this somewhat.

Thistlepong:

Sovoy utters the phrase, “Gods all around us,” on Kvothe’s first day. Chances are Modegan are polytheistic. Interestingly, then next and only other time the phrase is uttered is by Bredon. Y’know, with the mysterious pagan rituals on his northern estates... realtively close to the Modeg/Vintas border. It may be nothing more sinister than and older tradition normal in another nation.

Gods, plural, shows up in plenty of contexts in plenty of mouths. Near as I can tell, the church of Tehlu is the only monotheistic religion; and then only kinda. Deoch, for example, casts Yll as polytheistic with, “Gods of my fathers.”

Bredon/Ash

JohnPoint:

What if Bredon is the Earl of Baedyn-Bryt?

a) We’ve located Newarre in northwest Vintas, with some degree of certainty.

b) Chronicler was heading to see the Earl of Braedyn-Bryt, whose estates are located within 3-4 days’ travel of Newarre, thus also in northern Vintas.

c) There is a town of Baedyn, where Chronicler was thinking of being able to get a new horse.

d) There is a town (place location?) of Bredon, where they brew beer that is consumed in the Small Kingdoms.

e) The Small Kingdoms are located adjacent to northwestern Vintas, thus near where we’ve located Newarre.

f) Bredon (person) is a highly placed noble in Vintas—potentially an Earl—and has estates in northern Vintas, not too far from where Newarre is located.

g) “Bredon” and “Baedyn-Bryt” are rather similarly pronounced—condensing it to two syllables from three, and a transfer of the consonate “r” from the end to the first syllable makes them virtually identical.

So, perhaps Bredon is the Earl of Baedyn-Bryt, and Kvothe chose Newarre partially to be relatively close to him, for good or for evil. This could be applied to anyone’s pet theory about Bredon. (If he’s Master Ash, K chose the location for revenge-ish intentions. If he’s a “friend” of Kvothe—Amyr, Fae, or whatever—the location may have been chosen for future support.)

Sidenote, wasn’t Baedyn-Bryt formerly a Lackless posession/title? Does that support Bredon being Aculeus Lackless? Thoughts?

And Thistlepong has a new candidate for Master Ash... the Maer

Regarding the colors, I wasn’t referring to Ash himself, actually. Denna wears blue and white exclusively after confessing her patronage agreement to Kvothe. It’s a nearly invisible detail. However, a fair amount of text is devoted beforehand to the concept in the context of Kvothe’s troupe, his search for a patron, and the explanation thereof to Wil and Sim.

What interests me about that is that it points solidly at Alveron. It’s an argument tangential to this one, but there’s almost as much pointing to him as there is to Cinder or Bredon. He meets the only description that might be of Ash. He carries a walking stick for which his need waxes and wanes; and for which wanes coincidentally with the Cthaeh’s proclamation. He’s certainly cruel. He certainly views power as a game, according to the inherent versus granted conversation with Kvothe. Denna’s own hints that her song might be for the Maer, that Ash is at least as secretive as the Maer, heck even that he’s graceful obliquely call Alveron to mind. Prior to his current illness, he’d been healthy for almost a year, freeing him up for travel; for developing a relationship with Threpe, for being in Imre and Trebon? And the morning after Kvothe’s fight with Denna, Alveron sends him away on a mission he’s not exactly well suited to.

And yet, as gbrell (152) notes, there’s no textual clue that Denna recognizes either party when they happen upon Meluan and Alveron in the garden. It does seem rather unlikely that he spends much, if any, time travelling. Again, nothing in the text suggests he does. And so, in the face of all of the above, I guess he’s probably not Denna’s mysterious patron.

The unlikely thing would be him being in Imre... but it’s not impossible. He knows Threpe. He could have asked Threpe to look out for girls. And he’s the right kind of cruel.

Promotions: Robocarp, JohnPoint and A Fox, you are all worthy of the rank of Re’lar. And I think Thistlepong and GBrell should be elevated to El’the, even if we don’t know quite what it means. I hope you can cope with your new rates of tuition!


Jo Walton is a science fiction and fantasy writer. She’s published two poetry collections and nine novels, most recently the Hugo and Nebula winning Among Others. She reads a lot, and blogs about it here regularly. She comes from Wales but lives in Montreal where the food and books are more varied.

123 comments
thistle pong
1. thistlepong
@bluejo... thank you ::gratitude::

That's the second time you've been responsible for my unabashed delight this week. I finally read Among Others (library got the kindle version) and, well, thank you for that as well.
Steven Halter
2. stevenhalter
In the PR reddit interview at:
www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1699yv/im_fantasy_author_patrick_rothfuss_ama/c7ucik9

PR mentions that it is the Eddas he is using for a model for
Eld Vintic poetry.
Roger Pavelle
3. RogerPavelle
For some reason, all the talk about poetry got me thinking of wayside/waystone. So, I came up with the following. Please feel free to make additions, correction, comments since I'm not a poet and trying to fit things to an existing format is HARD!


Tale of the Waystone Inn (::profound respect and apologies:: to H.W.Longfellow)
Hearken my brethren and you shall hear
Of Kingkiller Kvothe, a great balladeer
As related to Devan, a Chronicler of note
While living in hiding as the innkeeper Kote.
At the Waystone Inn of Newarre.

His names they were many; Bloodless, Arcane
Well-earned and owned by deed and action
And he sought for the Chandrian, who caused him much pain
By killing his family for some unclear infraction.
He told of Abenthy, who taught sympathy
While riding in wagons past town and city.
And Kvothe learned quite quickly, like Ilien of fame
But mostly Kvothe wanted to learn the wind’s name
For he once heard Ben speak it and saw that it came.

- Roger
Rob Core
4. robtcore
@ stevenhalter,

Thanks for completely killing my productvity today. ::actual gratitude, not sarcasm::

Excellent AMA so far (I'm about 75% through the first page).

He was asked about the re-read. He said he hadn't read it, and mentioned his interview here. Someone else complimented the "fantastic speculations" and here was his reply:

"Yeah. From the glimpses I've seen, they've got some incredibly fucking brilliant people digging into the stuff."

So a hearty congratulations to our Re’lar and El’the.

It seemed more proper to leave these alone to pluralize (à la "sheep") - is there textual support for this?
Kaizoku
5. Kaizoku
I'm reposting this theory from the last thread... if you read it earlier then skip it please...
I think Faen people are extremely 'spontaneous' when it comes to changes in their emotions. It is hard to explain so I'm going to put in a bunch of quotes and examples: This is what got me thinking: " He was getting too tangled up in the story. He can’t feel a thing halfway. A little time away will give him some perspective. Besides, I do have dinner to prepare, even if it’s only for three. " " I have heard people say that men and the Fae are as different as dogs and wolves. While this is an easy analogy, it is far from true. Wolves and dogs are only separated by a minor shade of blood. Both howl at night. If beaten, both will bite. No. Our people and theirs are as different as water and alcohol. In equal glasses they look the same. Both liquid. Both clear. Both wet, after a fashion. But one will burn, the other will not. This has nothing to do with temperament or timing. These two things behave differently because they are profoundly, fundamentally not the same. The same is true with humans and the Fae. We forget it at our peril." This supports the idea of Faens having super-quick changes in temper. They behave differently when confronted with a situation, and a minor offense could make a Faen guy go insane. At the end of Book 1, we see Bast getting extremely pissed in a second, and, after making elaborate threats, offering Chronicler a nightcap and blankets. And this: " “You’ll do whatever you can,” Bast said, his voice low. “You will draw him out of himself. You will wake him up.” He said the last words fiercely. Bast lay one hand on Chronicler’s shoulder, his blue eyes narrowing ever so slightly. “You will make him remember. You will.” Chronicler hesitated for a moment, then looked down at the circle of holly in his lap and gave a small nod. “I’ll do what I can.” “That’s all any of us can do,” Bast said, giving him a friendly pat on the back. “How’s the shoulder, by the way?” " And: " She made a disappointed noise of protest as I set the lute back into its case. “are you weary?” she asked with a hint of a smile. “I would not have tired you, sweet poet, had I known.” I gave my best apologetic smile. “I’m sorry, but it seems to be getting late.” Actually, the sky still showed the same purple hint of twilight it had since I first woke, but I pushed on. “I’ll need to be moving quickly if I’m to meet ...” My mind went numb as quickly as if I’d been struck a blow to the back of my head. I felt the passion, fierce and insatiable. I felt the need to have her, to crush her body to mine, to taste the savage sweetness of her mouth. Only because of my arcane training did I hold onto any concept of my own identity at all. Even so, I only held it with my barest fingertips. Felurian sat cross-legged on the cushions across from me, her face angry and terrible, her eyes cold and hard as distant stars. " And: " Felurian giggled like a brook. “you learned from books.” She looked at me as if she couldn’t decide whether or not to take me seriously. She laughed, stopped, then laughed again. I didn’t know if I should be offended. “You were rather good too,” I said hurriedly, knowing I sounded like the last dinner guest to compliment her on a salad. “As a matter of fact, I’ve read—” “books? books! you compare me with books!” Her anger crashed over me. Then without even pausing for breath, Felurian laughed again, high and delighted. Her laugh was wild as a fox’s cry, clear and sharp as morning birdsong. It was no human sound. " " Bast did look stricken. His face was pale, almost waxy. His normally cheerful expression was aghast. “Reshi,” he said, his voice as dry as autumn leaves. “You never told me you spoke with the Cthaeh.” “There’s a lot of things I’ve never told you, Bast,” Kvothe said flippantly. “That’s why you find the sordid details of my life so enthralling.” Bast gave a sickly smile, shoulders sagging with relief. “You didn’t really, then. Talk with it, I mean? It’s something you just added to make things a little more colorful?” “Please, Bast,” Kvothe said, obviously offended. “My story has quite enough color without my adding to it.” “Don’t lie to me!” Bast shouted suddenly, coming halfway out of his seat with the force of it. “Don’t you lie to me about this! Don’t you dare!” Bast struck the table with one hand, toppling his mug and sending Chronicler’s inkwell skittering across the table. " “Reshi, you need stitches,” Bast said. “And you need to let me do something about that tooth.” Kvothe climbed off the stool. “I’ll just chew on the other side for a few days.” Bast took hold of Kvothe’s arm. His eyes were hard and dark. “Sit down Reshi.” It was nothing like a request. His voice was low and sudden, like a throb of distant thunder. “Sit. Down.” " " Bast made a sharp gesture with one hand, his eyes still hard. “I did not ask for your opinion, Reshi.” The innkeeper looked down, uncomfortable. “It’s more than you should do, Bast.” The dark young man reached out and laid a gentle hand on the side of his master’s face. For a moment he looked tired, weary through to the bone. Bast shook his head slowly, wearing an expression of bemused dismay. “You are an idiot, Reshi.” Bast drew his hand back, and the weariness was gone. " Bast sighed, finally pulling his eyes away from the fireplace. “Think. The Cthaeh knows everything you’re ever going to do. Everything you’re going to say . . . “That makes it an irritating conversationalist,” Chronicler said. “But not—” Bast’s expression went suddenly furious. “Dyen vehat. Enfeun vehat tyloren tes!” he spat almost incoherently. He was trembling, clenching and unclenching his hands. Chronicler went pale at the venom in Bast’s voice, but he didn’t flinch. “You’re not angry at me,” he said calmly, looking Bast in the eye. “You’re just angry, and I happen to be nearby.” Bast glared at him, but said nothing. Chronicler leaned forward. “I’m trying to help, you know that, right?” Bast nodded sullenly. “That means I need to understand what’s going on.” Bast shrugged, his sudden flare of temper had burned itself out, leaving him listless again. " I think that Faens are far more prone to rapid changes in their emotions. They don't get a little angry, they get really angry really quickly...and they can calm down just as quickly.
Jo Walton
7. bluejo
Elodin can't be Manet: he's not old enough.
John Graham
8. JohnPoint
Thanks as always for the update Jo, and ::sincere gratitude:: for the promotion.

@3 Roger -- nice!

@4 robtcore -- there is textual evidence for E'lir being plural. While explaining the library to Kvothe in WMF (during Kvothe's first official trip), Wil complains about all the lazy E'lir in Tomes who get up tight when it takes a long time for the scrivs to fetch a book. Don't have the passage with me right now, so I can't quote it exactly, but I just reread it this morning. I'd guess that applies to Re'lar and El'the as well.

Also, re Caleptuna and Yll, in that same passage Wil mentiones the clay tablets which were the primary survivors of the burning. As such, that implies that Caleptuna either a) wasn't in Yll (since they're not knots), or b) was burned after the time that other forms of writing were taken to Yll.

@7 Jo -- are we absolutely sure of Manet's age? We know that he has been at the University for 30 years, but that Elodin could have also (since he was 14 when he first enrolled, and could well be 44 now...). If Manet is Elodin in disguise, he would want to appear older than elodin to match the times... However, I don't think that they are the same person either.
Kaizoku
9. jeanthesquare
Not sure if anything like this has been brought up before (I can't read ALL the comments, though I try...)

I was thinking about the Chronicler/Kote exchange, suggesting that some say there is a new Chandrian, implying Kvothe is one, or at least he is as terrible, and Kote darkly brushes it off.

However, this idea of a new Chandrian has way too much potential to just be dealt with in a simple "Kvothe, are YOU a Chandrian?" "No sir, I am not." This is a Big Deal.

Maybe there IS a new Chandrian. For example, perhaps in Day 3 Kvothe manages to kill Cinder, only for Cinder to be replaced. Hell, maybe Cinder is TRAINING his replacement...

In the frame it doesn't quite seem like Denna is dead, but she definitely seems somehow far away and unrecoverable. And Denna thinks Lanre is a hero.

To me it feels like it would really fit this story, and the tragedy it feels like it is shaping into, for the love of K's life not just to throw in with his worst enemies (this is already suspected if we think Ash=Cinder), but to truly become one of them, to be altered, to become more than a woman, and less.

It also fits with two things that many have separately pointed out: that Denna's story is the reflection or inverse of Kvothe's, and that Kvothe is an Amyr in all but name, or Amyr-in-training. Denna having Cinder for a patron would make her a Chandrian-in-training, wouldn't it?

Some have speculated that Kvothe has killed Denna, but maybe this is something he has yet to do, and is (understandably!) putting it off. Or maybe he will find a way to save her, leading to eucatastrophe.
Kaizoku
10. Al Ged
Wouldn't a Yillish Library look like meat locker with a million ropes in place of chains? Sounds pretty combustable.
Jeremy Raiz
11. Jezdynamite
Thanks Jo for the new post!

Following on a bit further from the Cthaeh's killing of the butterflies (and the cleverly thought-out impact this has in the 4Cs).

After K visits the Cthaeh, he notices the curious absence of all butterflies at Felurian's clearing.

I wonder if this has also been orchestrated by the Cthaeh. Perhaps the lack of butterflies near Felurian is the foreshadowing of:

(1) 4C folk being stopped from crossing over into the Faen realm. i.e. equating the missing/absent butterflies with the future lack of 4Cs folk crossing into the Faen realm.

(2) Felurian's future imprisonment, death or her being trapped in the Faen realm without being able to lure folk into the Faen realm; and hence her isolation from the "butterflies/4Cs folk".

On a separate crazy note: what happens to the folk who Felurian traps in the Faen realm? They probably die from too much sex/desire but what if - I know it sounds weird - she somehow turns them into butterflies. Wild speculation and crazy shaping, I know! But I have some thoughts that I'll put on paper this weekend.
John Graham
12. JohnPoint
Jez @11 re crazy speculation about felurian and butterflies.

Isn't the skin around Felurian's eyes described as being very butterfly-like? On the pin-up calendar her "eyeshadow" appears iridescent but not (from what I can tell on the interwebs) veined or anything like that...
Jeremy Raiz
13. Jezdynamite
Johnpoint @12

Yes, they are. And throughout Kvothe's visit, Felurian is constantly surrounded by butterflies which are in regular physical contact with her.

My speculation stems partly from the butterflies sipping from the pale-blue flowers on the Cthaehs tree (which happens in the Cthaeh chapter in WMF) which I think is the rumoured Rhinna flower - i.e. a panacea (cure any illness, wound).

Perhaps some butterflies would revert back to their original 4cs shape by sipping from the flower, and the Cthaeh has to kill them to avoid this from happening.

I started down this path of thinking because I was wondering what happened to all of the people who had been drawn to Felurian over the 5 thousand or so 4Cs years (even more Faen years) since Murella was destroyed. Were they buried/eaten?

Could they have been converted to butterflies to keep lonely Felurian company? Perhaps rather than being killed when Felurian sexes them to exhaustion, they are turned into butterflies (she's magical, she has butterfly like features and performs magic without knowing how she does it, its part of her nature).
Ashley Fox
14. A Fox
Ooh promotion. :: gentle smile, gratitude::

So I read AMoL in but two days, an am feeling rather fazed.

So for now just a wee bit of butterfly themed spec:

Could they actually be an almost reverse butterfly effect? They seem to be portents of power. The CTH consumes them...are they actually a means of it consuming knowledge? Tasting the flavour of the power, the events which have shaped it?
Jeremy Raiz
15. Jezdynamite
A.Fox. Congratulatons on your promotion!!!

RE: Butteflies
Interesting. I can't see why not. Tasting power sounds delicious to me.

Re: AMOL.
Just quickly, does AMoL resolve all of the concucrrent threads to your satisfaction? I started reading them when the first Wheel of Time volume came out but I got sick of waiting. I haven't read the last 3 books and totally forgot about them.
Don Barkauskas
16. bad_platypus
Jezdynamite @15:
If you're looking for answers to everything in AMoL, you won't get all of them. For me, however, it was extremely satisfying. All the major plotlines were wrapped up, with some minor plotlines and a few mysteries left open.
Kaizoku
18. Dessert
In terms of Cthaeh's discussion of Cinder. I don't think Cinder bought Kvothe a drink, especially since he's only met Cinder twice, which are both already accounted for (at the campfire and at the bandit outpost).

Denna first meets Master Ash at the Eolian. No doubt he has stopped to buy a drink. Kvothe doesn't directly meet him there which satisfies the twice in a lifetime issue.

Kvothe catches an ash leaf in his mouth in a gust of wind when naming Master Ash. Essentially catching wind of him (it's similar to Elodin catching the milk pod).

This analysis seems consistent with "Master Ash is Cinder," although it doesn't quite fit with "Bredon/Alveron is Master Ash."
Kaizoku
19. Dessert
Re: Butterflies.

I always assumed the Cthaeh watched the butterflies to gain knowledge about the world outside his clearing. By watching how they move and what ones are there, he knows what timeline he's following. If one of them flaps out of turn, he can think about all the alternative futures to the one he planned and figure out what future he's in. As well as what he needs to do to get back on track. They are his feedback.

It could be possible that the butterflies either carry or are actual messages sent past the Sithe (how are they gonna see a butterfly, let alone shoot one). I'm not sure I buy that though, seems a bit far-fetched. They're probably just poor butterflies seeking out the flowers.
Kaizoku
20. Ryan H
Just a quick thought reguarding Lorren and the Amyr/Chandrian.

Lorren doesn't have to be an Amyr or have any formal connection with any of this to have his (suspected) actions make sense. He only has to have somewhat greater knowedge of them than people in general. Namely, I think that purging the collection of any mention of the Chandrian and related powers would be the first duty of any head librarian.

Think about it this way. Some student runs across a thin volume called 'Names of the Chandrian' by Phillip Diedsuddenly. Said student thinks it's neat and shows it to their friends. So you then have a dozen people sitting in the middle of your precious, precious library saying the names of the Chandrian over and over and over...

Maybe someone gives a lecture on mythology and tells the names o dozens or hundreds fo people.

The Chandrian and related subjects are OLD power and names and information about them is is activly dangerious. You would not need to know much fo the truth before treating anything associated with them like plague items. Or for viewing a first year student who is looking up information on them as actuvly reckless.

Part of Lorren's inclination to keep Kvothe out of the library might have been related to the worry that he would still be interested in the Chandrian. After all, even the most thourough librarian might have missed a dangerous volume hidden on some shelf.
Jeremy Raiz
21. Jezdynamite
Ryan H @ 20

What you wrote above makes perfect sense to me.

With that in mind, do you think Viari (Lorren's giller from NW, with the tattoos on his arms, which remind some of one of the Ciridae) is an Amyr?
Sahi Rioth
22. Sahirioth
Oh, snap! This:
The Imre event could also be the “fought an angel to gain his heart’s desire” part of Kvothe’s legend.
This is the first time I realize that quote is ambiguous. If Kvothe fought and angel to gain his heart's desire, the 'his' could refer to the angel's desire. Yeah.
Ashley Fox
23. A Fox
@Jez. :) It wraps a lot up and what is left is tantalizing rather than frustrating. If you liked the story when you read the books previously then I would definately reccomend finishing the series. There are some great moments, and its nice to have the satisfaction of seeing those threads woven together. However: The change between Jordan and Sanderson is a bit of a shock. Whilst I give him lots of credit and respect for taking on the task he did...he did'nt quite pull it off. There are a lot of faults and things that just do not feel right. So take a deep breath and accept that it is not Jordan-it helps.

Ok, so I had a quick catch up on the last thread and an odd thought occured to me reading Kaisoku's post and following comments. (I'm so glad that post was broken up more originally! ::serious underscores wry::)

So:
“Reshi,” he said, his voice as dry as autumn leaves."
-connecting up to the silence

“There’s a lot of things I’ve never told you, Bast,” Kvothe said
flippantly. “That’s why you find the sordid details of my life so
enthralling.”

"His voice was low and sudden, like a throb of distant thunder."
-Thunder, part of K's Name

"Bast made a sharp gesture with one hand, his eyes still hard."
(-An oddity that gesture. Mmm)

“It’s more than you should do, Bast.”
-What is that Bast is supposed to do?

"Bast shook his head slowly, wearing an expression of bemused dismay. “You are an idiot, Reshi.”

Then there was Shalters ob of some feeling K's actions with the fake Ruh were off. Which drew me to compare Basts actions with his hired soldiers.

The there is the putting it about which reflects how we leave K at the end of WMF, the flashes of temper, the showmanship, K's a bit fae round the edges, the power, the grandoise threats, K's test to see if Bast could open the thrice-locked chest, the yearning for K to wake up-to be whole again.

Is Bast what K has lost in becoming Kote? If a blade of Ramson steel wast to break it would leave you with more than one piece. K has lost much of his ability, seemingly, in the frame and yet takes a perfect step.

If Bast is a manifestation of his power, the vigour of his Name and the tempestuous nature that accompanies such...then it would leave the mundanity of his mortal half. Still intelligent, still a storyteller but with much lost. Throughout the narrative we see how such power aids K, but we also see how his personality leads him to mistakes and foolishness. Perhaps he is able to take that perfect step because these parts have been cut away.

Is this why, and how, he is a cut flower?

Now I'm tempted to read through the frame again and see if K becomes the innkeeper (as label rather than Kote, and Kvothe) when Bast is at the forefront. Note in the segment in which Bast is described as thunder K is labeled Kvothe...until Bast/Thunder...then he is the innkeeper.

EDIT to add: And then there is the only time we see K sleep...when Bast sings to him.
Kaizoku
24. shuntz
Ok bare with me here - after reading all the threads and comments :} (yep all of them) and the 2 books twice.

One thing that I do not think I have seen considered in depth is that one person in this story seems to have to be a Fean in glamour. There is enough foreshadowing with more than a few comments by Felurian (tinker glamour) and also the skinwalker thing.

Denna? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Could Taborlin be fean? could he be the one Chandarian that isn't one of the seven? One that opposes the others? Has he lived a long time? - is he Elodin (imprisoned and escaped), Manet (Spades!) and maybe Marten (who actually may have called down lightning on a chandarian by praying ). Teccam? probably not.

It's the Manet spades thing that really gets me. That has to be Elodin! Which would mean Elodin is from fean if he glamours himself as Manet..
Might be possible as Elodin is mysterious and no-one knows where he is from one minute to the next while Manet is always there.
(....or Manet and Elodin are secret Amyr society)

But I reckon there might be 1 skinwalker/fean glammoured around in the story somewhere. Unless that's just the tinkers ;/

Yea, started strong ended weak, as my logic started falling nameless from the sky.
Steven Halter
25. stevenhalter
A Fox@23:Ooh, I like that--Bast has been created/separated from Kvothe and needs to remerge with Kote to reform Kvothe. Thus, Kote is going to "die" to recreate Kvothe.
I'm not sure I believe that is what will happen, but I would be content if it were to happen.
- -
26. hex
There's been a lot of speculation that Kvothe later confronts, fights, and or kills Cinder in Day 3. I don't have the quote handy, but doesn't the CTH say running into him was a twice in a lifetime chance? If Kvothe did fight him at the bandit camp as the CTH suggests, wouldn't that mean that he's not going to see Cinder again? That'd mean either Cinder is not D's patron, or K never confronts him.

The CTH also gives some lame justifications for setting him on Cinder's trail, so I don't know where that leaves this thought. While the CTH is completely truthful, he's probably the most unreliable as he's not imparting information with the recipient's best interests at heart.
thistle pong
27. thistlepong
@23/25

What if Bast were such a "piece" plus Denna?
Bruce Wilson
28. Aesculapius
The various Horcruxes of Kvothe...?!

Actually, that's a really very interesting idea and I like it a lot!
Steven Halter
29. stevenhalter
There have been various conjectures through the reread of Bast being Kvothe's son and none have ever been particularly satisfying. The conjecture at23 by A Fox of Bast being a piece of Kvothe is quite interesting, especially if we combine the concept with the thrice-locked chest. This gives us a Trinity, and that is quite interesting from an alchemical/mythologic point of view.
From wikipedia:
The concept of the spagyric remedy in turn relies upon the three cardinal principles of alchemy, termed as salt, sulphur and mercury. "The basis of matter was the alchemical trinity of principles – salt, sulfur and mercury. Salt was the principle of fixity (non-action) and in-combustibility; mercury was the principle of fusibility (ability to melt and flow) and volatility; and sulfur was the principle of inflammability."
Elsewhere, one can find that this alchemical trinity is associated with the biblical Trinity as Sulfur = Father = Sun = Gold = Kvothe?, Salt = Son = Bast?, Mercury = Holy Spirit = Moon = Thrice Locked Chest?. And, of course, there are many other mythological trinities that resonate here.
This also corresponds nicely to the motif of threes that we see elsewhere in the book (tell me three time, trifoil compass, Kvothe+Wil+Sim, ...)
Ashley Fox
30. A Fox
We have chatted about the Waystone and it's possible qualities before. Perhaps it functions as some sort of anchor?

Prologue. A silence of three parts.

(1st silence)"Thunder would have muttered and rumbled and chased the silence down the road like fallen leaves."

Bast sneaks in furtively (2nd silence) "They made an amalgam of sorts"
Amalgam-"An amalgam is a substance formed by the reaction of mercury with another metal. Almost all metals can form amalgams with mercury, notable exception being iron." (wikipedia)
-Ohh Shalter look at that ;)

K is the innkeeper, passive laying awake in bed. (3rd silence in chest and his hands)

"The Waystone was his, just as the third silence was his. This was appropriate, as it was the greatest silence of the three, holding the others inside itself."

Ch.1 Apple and Elderberry

Bast- " His blue eyes prowled the room endlessly, as if searching for a way out."

Bast opens, singing. K 'inkeeper'.
K wishes to speak frankly, becomes Kote.
K awknowledges Bast saved those in inn. Bast affirms K could have done it easily. K becomes inkeeper, asks for Bast's knowledge.
("Exactly the verse I was thinking of")
K becomes Kote in antipation of telling his tale
-
"The man who called himself Kote" does inkeepery things. Lokks at Folly. Is the inkeeper.
Answers door, interacts, is Kote. Brass bound barrels.
Puls beer, inkeeper.Considers the last night, Kote. He flits betwen the two depending upon his actions contrasting with his knowledge. The knowing "Graham lifted an eyebrow at the inkeeper." after K tells of a mandamus.
-
K sorts apples, makes cider, is distant. Inkeeper. (Also it definately is autumn)

Ch.2 Holly
Varying beween inkeeper and kote depndant upon action/inaction
Bast active.
The laughter...Bast laughs uncontrollably, K laughs thrice.
The convo between K and bast re what to do with the holly can almost be read as an inner monologue. Even to being startled out of it when Chronicler speaks.
Bast "lifted the half formed circle up to his own head...."From the stories I've heard" Kote said, "holy traps them in a body too."
Bast "I've just heard stories."
The inkeeper fumbles and breaks the holly wreath. Bast succeeds, wrought ith grammerie.

(of note in this section: The CTHs power? Skin dancers
" They're supposed to look like a dark shadow or smoke when they leave the body, are'nt they"

Does Chronicler know?)
-
Inkeeper mostly, Bast absent, flash of Kote with interest, then kote when atempts to reveal who he is to Aaron. Curiously when he ost tries to convince he is the inkeeper-such as Aaron see's. Bast returns, active. Becomes Kote when Bast accuses him of mooning over D. Bast becomes passive, listening. Kote flickers into the innkeeper as he touches into where he left off. Then he becomes Kvothe when looking at what he previously said about D. In keeper hands back sheet. Kvothe looks around room, starts telling.

I'm going to go through the rest but suspect I'm heading into too long with this post. lol @ Aesc! Nice ideas peeps...specially Shalter! With that little in-text support too!

I'm viewing the fluxuations of K to be similar to those of Mortal and Faen when the moon moves betwixt and between.
Steven Halter
31. stevenhalter
A Fox:That is interesting that iron doesn't form an amalgam with mercury. I wonder if PR knows that?
thistle pong
32. thistlepong
A Fox! You stole the jump on me. I've had a series of blogs mostly formatted about the prologues and epilogues mostly formatted for months. I just can't seem to polish them and keep littlepong alive and happy. So good catch :)

I'm actually kind of surprised you folks cotton to the alchemical notions since I brushed them off for so long myself.

stevenhalter@29

I mentioned that in another context in Summary 14 and Jo quoted it for Summary 15. Those are the principles Pat teased us about in the Admissions Interview. They're also likely the subject of Teccam's Underlying Principles. Since his other work is Theophany, I tend to see him as a renaissance alchemist like Paracelsus. Anyway, another good catch.

I get, like, no response when I draw Potter comparisons, but I'll try again. The big deal chest in HP is Mad Eye's, which is seven chests in one... in a seven book series... wherein seven's the primary magical number. Pat's put more effort into his threes than Rowling into her sevens; or at least there are more of them. Aeculapius's comment sparked the similarity and yours kindled it to flame.

@31 He surely does. He's talked about the intro for D2 being one of the most labor intensive parts of the book. And as it's one of the significant differences from D1's prologue, it can't be happenstance.
Steven Halter
33. stevenhalter
thistlepong@32:Right, I was adding on here for the 3 alchemical principles. I am seeing how all that dovetails here.

I like that HP comparison--nice.
George Brell
34. gbrell
@20.Ryan H:

Think about it this way. Some student runs across a thin volume called 'Names of the Chandrian' by Phillip Diedsuddenly. Said student thinks it's neat and shows it to their friends. So you then have a dozen people sitting in the middle of your precious, precious library saying the names of the Chandrian over and over and over...

Maybe someone gives a lecture on mythology and tells the names o dozens or hundreds fo people.

One thing I would consider is that the Names are only dangerous when a few people know them. Kvothe makes this point when Bast freaks out about him reciting Shehyn's poem. To steal his metaphor, it's like tracking one person in a muddy field that's just hosted a square dance; too many foot prints hides identity as easily as too few. Interestingly, Kvothe actually seems to indicate that the old Names have re-entered circulation. Which then begs the question of how they were re-discovered:

Kvothe frowned. “I have slept my thousand nights and traveled several thousand miles since then, Bast. It is safe to say them once. With all the hell that’s breaking loose in the world these days you can believe people are telling old stories more often. If the Chandrian are listening for names, I don’t doubt they’ve got a slow din of whispering from Arueh to the Circle Sea.”
Ashley Fox
35. A Fox
Thistlepong. Oops. Post them! I certainly would not mind if they were not quite up to you're exacting standards. I think I'm rather oposite in you in that I get an idea, chase, and typy type out a bluergh of words. Not that you can't tell, or anything, what with my horrendous typos! It's my distilation process if you will.

On that note, I have just been putting together a post going through the frame sections (in another window). Formatted much the same as above...it's rather long. Do people want me to post it? I feel rather bad upon occasion at my lengthly posts...

On alchemy, I must admit that I only started picking up on them becuase of your observations and subsequent chatter here. Am still quite ignorant on the subject.

I do like Shaters link between the alchemic symbolism and the possible K/Bast seperation. Distillation of the soul? What is the gold? (There is a moment of it I've noted in the unseen post I mentioned.)

Harry Potter: Do you think this could have fuelled the Arghness that came at the HP comparison and cartoon?
Steven Halter
36. stevenhalter
A Fox@35:I've been wondering at the lack of Gold/Sun also. There is a Sun in the 4C--they mention it, but there seems to be very little concern about it compared to the moon in the 4c. Probably because no one has stolen the Sun, but in our own past, the Sun was concentrated on quite a lot. ASeems significant in omission.
Ashley Fox
37. A Fox
Here's a condensed version of that post, highlighting symbols and possible K/B seperation. There's more, but...yeah. Bast has all of the elements of K's name appear. The heart and wound. Alchemical in nature. Bast seemingly doesnt know, and K seemingly has forgotten...yet there are moments when there's almost an awknowldgement. The Waystone plays a part, of the greatest silence, as K's hands, as K, as the thrice locked chest.

And I think Chronicler knows.

Ch.47 Hempen Verse
"Sunlight was hard and bright as a bar of gold." K as inkeeper and Bast work in tandem to play trick on Chronicler-the story. Becomes Kvothe when Cob&Co leave. Avtive. thrusts home point. Bast supports, passive. Continues tale.

Ch.105 A certain sweetness K is Kvothe. (previous qoutes.) Bast "I dont care what other shit you spin into gold here! But you dont liw about this, Reshi! Not to me!"
"Bast closed his eyes and pounded the table like a child" And breaks the wood...broken tree.
K "It's the truth behind the stories....{Bast} covered his eyes with one hand"
"I can't for all the salt in me..."-Bast
"Bast laid his bloody palm on the table. The wood groaned and the broken timbers snapped back into place...flame the colour of blood."

Ch. 136 Close to Forgetting
"Quit expecting me to be something I'm not...God's mother, why can't you just leave me aone?"
Bast stood still as a startled hart, his eyes wide.
Silence flooded the room, thick and bitter as a lungful of smoke."
Bast:"Realisation broke over Bast's face like sunrise."
Also Thunder

Ch. 151 Locks
Bast in his rrom. Passive. C comes though window. Bast wraps himself in shawl "It was a choas of ill-matching fabric and faded colour except for a bright red heart sewn in the centre". Rings of love, service and
enimty. Bast, about K. "He knows the hidden turnings of the world...and what he doesnt understan he's quick to grasp.' Bast's fingrs flicked iddly at the edges of the blanket "and he trusts me."
C:"Are you listening to me?Are you finally awake?"
-
Kvothe:"Smal and wounded"
"bad news he already knew"-but has almost forgotten?
-
"Grab a piece of fire"
The wind encourages.

Epilogue: A silence of three parts.

1st. Lacking. rain, lovers, music.
2nd. distant reverlry (of sheps funeral) broken by the wind.
Rustling leaves (reflecting bast's atumn leaves) and the screeching of an owl. That fades.
3rd. Of the things K has lost. In the locked locks, the cider he made,
the broken and gone tables/chairs, his bruises. In his hands.
The man, K, rises from his bed, in pain. Hidden he takes a perfect step.
'Thief in the night (ealier ch title of liar and thief).
The 3rd silence is also in the Waystone.
Kaizoku
38. Simurgh
A thought that occurs to me on reading the section regarding the meaning of "rhinta" - man-shaped. What occurs to me is that it could also mean "A Man, Shaped" or "shaped-man" i.e a person who has had their Name changed. We already know that Haliax has had his named changed, but I don't know if there is any evidence of this for the rest of the Chandrian.

Knowing that there is/was some speculation regarding Kvothe changing his Name, if this were true then technically Kote would be Rhinta. This coupled with the "rumours of a new Chandrian" and "The important people know the difference" conversation feels right to me. Rothfuss-esque if thats a thing.

I'd also like to just let you know that I am amazed at some of the details you all have teased out, sometimes from the barest clues so :deep respect:
Wallace Forman
39. WallaceForman
I think the Bast qua fragment of Kvothe theory has some appeal to it, but it also has some large holes, so I'd like to offer pushback.

1) Bast has knowledge that Kvothe did not.

Bast knows things about the Faen world, such as about the Cthaeh, Glamourie and Grammarie, etc. that Kvothe does not ever seem to have learned. We could suppose that Kvothe actually did learn these things from Felurian, but the knowledge was simply incorporated into Bast. But this explanation has problems. Bast and Kvothe both claim that Felurian would not have talked about these things, because it was impolite, bad luck, boring for her, etc.

2) Bast has a history of his own.

Kvothe tells us that Bast is the "son of Remmen, Prince of Twilight and the Telwyth Mael" (punctuation tends to suggests that Remmen, not Bast is the prince, but can anyone confirm that Rothfuss reliably uses the Oxford comma?). Kvothe is certainly not the son of Remmen, so far as we know.

3) The history shared by Kvothe and Bast does not accomodate Bast's unique knowledge and history.

The most likely time for Kvothe and Bast to have "separated" is the date of the as yet unknown "event". Chronicler says that the event occurred not even two years ago. Bast meanwhile, has been Kvothe's student for nearly two years. If Bast had separated from Kvothe at the time of the mysterious event and remained with him thereafter, then his persona would never have had time to develop his independent knowledge and his apparent 150 years of life experience.
Ashley Fox
40. A Fox
:) Yep. Those are the dissenting points that occured to me also. It certainly seems as if they should provide solid disproof...however.

1. Knowledge.
Skin Dancers:
"From the stories I've heard" Kote said, "holly traps them in a body too."
Bast "I've just heard stories."
After Bast says verse. K: "Exacty the verse I was thinking of." (Ch.1 WMF)

Felrurian's impartings, told: Grammerie/Shaping (shaed), story of moon, sex. Info: on Tain Mael, the Daendan, the gorse Court. Gorse meddled in the Berentaltha between Mael & House of Fine. Gorse scrorned by dayward. Berentaltha a dance. A thousand small, scattered facts. Never look a Thiana with both eyes at once, gif of 1 cinnas terrible insult to Beladari.

It's curious how many of the Stories are about the Mael. From where Bast comes. The knowledge of Faen that Bast is surprised K knows is from Felurian: Berantaltha. K has heard of the Sithe, but Bst says he does not understand them.

CTH: K has me the CTH, after the pain of that meeting sends him into an almost sleep, much like Tarbean. His thinking mind may not comphrend the CTH...but his sleeping mind does, and is wounded. Felurian tells K the CTH is a seer, Bast forces home the reprucussions. Felurian tells K a story of the Rhinna flower, K see's the flowers when he speaks with the CTH. Bast connects these pieces of info for him and K comphrehends. Although Fel would not have directly mentioned he CTH she certainly old stories about CTHish reprucussions.

Unexplained: CTH talking to Lanre. Nameless. Scaendyne. Though the latter two are possibly in Fel's tales.

K knows alchemy, bast glam/gramourie. Shrug. D3. We have seen glimmers of the story heading into that direction and we dont know for certain what Fel taught K in the creation of the Shaed.

There is also Basts hiring of the soldiers. Elderberry wine: was this that K made explode, that Bast is looking for in Ch.1, that he asks the soldiers to find, and drinks before he kills them. In the prolodgue Bast is sneaking in. In ch.1 K notices the door unlocked, later he pointedly leaves the key in the door, ostensibly for Chronicler. He also makes a point of sending Bast away before the soldiers come..

2."son of Remmen, Prince of Twilight and the Telwyth Mael"
This could be misapropriated knowledge from Fel's tales, to fill in a history. She is of the Twilight, she speaks of the Mael. And then there is that comment of K being sired by 'some passing god'early in NotW, K's oft described as Fae aound the edges.

3. The 150 years is addressed above. (Though I could easily offer lots of Faen/Mortal time slippage spec with no evidence! ;) ) Agree with the event/two years...very young isnt it?

"Bast closed his eyes and pounded the table like a child in the grip of a temper tantrum"
B: "Do you think i'm a child?"
K about B&C: "Oh...You're both so young."
Chronicler: "I was trying not to offend the innocent ears of our young friend here".
Steven Halter
41. stevenhalter
Pat posted his moment of whimsy for the Jay Lake fundraiser on his blog here:
blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2013/01/my-terrible-surprise-the-dreaded-high-school-novel/
It contains an excerpt from a novel he wrote in high school and some reflection thereof.
Ashley Fox
42. A Fox
"I figured I’d have at least a week or two before I had to come up with anything. Plenty of time for me to wrap up my own fundraiser, finish a story I have due,..."

Is this a short...or D3?!
Roger Pavelle
45. RogerPavelle
@40
Kvothe breaks the elderberry wine when fighting the skin dancer at the end of day 1 (but couldn't set it aflame).

Another dissenting point is that Bast has seen Denna and didn't have the same reaction as K (not perfect features but perfect ears). We don't know when this happened either, but I would say it points to them being separate people.

- Roger
Ashley Fox
46. A Fox
Cheers! My NotW is missing and I rather quickly scanned Jo's posts to find where we had seen Elderberry wine before. Obviously a little too quickly.

I had been puzzling over the significance of it. Now it makes sense. It represents Kote's failure to be Kvothe. Bast hires the soldiers to remedy this, also getting them to collect the Elderberry. He does drink it rather bitterly (and knows where it is to tell the soldiers after K says it's there somewhere.)

The apples from NotW, all ripe and rosy, now old and only good for cider...with some stored carefully away. Extended metaphores ahoy.

Elder is quite a powerful symbol. Transitions, regeneration. Death and rebirth.

The Denner memory is a curious one. It's been ticking over in my mind. K forgot that Bast had seen her. Does this imply that she was present at The Event? To me the fact that it is Kote who loves her still, and Bast a bit more ambivalent signifies that it is the man who loves her, not his power. A more honest love.

(I honestly love elderflower. Yum)
thistle pong
47. thistlepong
OFFTOPIC

I think we're all working from the same text here. A lot of us are on ebooks or first edition, first printings. However, the first print of the WMF paperback is apparently different from all the others.

Here's one example we've talked about from:

Kindle, Hardcover, and Paperback 2nd printing onward:
I handed him Alveron’s ring.
Stapes put it in his pocket.
“I also wanted to return these.” I handed him the two rings he had given me. One bright gold, one white bone.
(p. 927)
Paperback 1st printing:
I handed him Alveron's ring.
Stapes put it in his pocket.
"I also wanted to return these." I handed him the two rings he had given me. One bright silver, one white bone.
(p. 933)

Does anyone have the alternate version?

/OFFTOPIC
Ashley Fox
48. A Fox
British, Hardback 1 3 5 7 9 10 8 6 4 2 (So, 2nd ed, I think??) p.927

"One bright gold, one white bone."

Seems it was perhaps a mistake tha got caught and edited.

"To my fabulous agent, for keeping the wolves from my door in more way than one" Always intrigues me ;)
Roger Pavelle
49. RogerPavelle
@48 A Fox
I think that indicates a first edition. The standard is to drop off numbers to indicate a later edition (so second edition would be 3 5 7 9 10 8 6 4 2). Pat discusses some of this on his blog (this link and an earlier one mentioned in this blog):
http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2011/03/first-editions-a-conversation-and-another-interview/

- Roger
John Graham
50. JohnPoint
thistlepong @ 47: My hardcover 1st US printing is the same as the paperback first pringing: "one bright gold, one bright bone" (p.927).

But the ring was silver when Stapes originally gave it to him :
Then, I was standing in the hallway. I opened my hand and saw a fine silver ring with Stapes' name etched across the face. Alongside it was a second ring that wasn't metal at all. (p. 442)
And it's definitely silver when Bredon sees it in Kvothe's bowl the next day.

Question, in the Kindle and later editions, is the ring silver or gold when Stapes first gives it to him?
thistle pong
51. thistlepong
Silver, to the best of my knowledge. The first run of the paperback is alone special. Another difference is that during Bast's rant, he says, "Jax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon," rather than Iax.

@Roger, it's a first edition, first printing. Each subsequent printing drops the lowest number. So that second example would be first edition, second printing.

As far as I know, the British edition is supposed to be in British English and therefore slightly different, but I've had no way to explore that.
Ashley Fox
52. A Fox
lol, I probably shouldnt have abused it as much as I have then!

It is in proper English :P 's' instead of 'z'. Colour instead of color. Ect. I can't imagine it makes a difference, except in terms of not jarring.

I also have Iax speaking with the CTH. Now that is a curious change. We get Iax from Scarpi alone, dont we? And Jax from Hespe. If Bast's Iax is changed to Jax that would lend more credance to Hespe's story. Mmm. I really want to hear the Adem's second story!
John Graham
53. JohnPoint
So, am I correct that in all of the editions except the first paperback printing, the ring is initially described as silver (when Stapes gives it to Kvothe), then described as gold (when Kvothe gives it back to Stapes)? And in the first paperback printing, it's silver both times? If so, that is bizarre.

If this discrepancy has been discussed before, I missed it...
thistle pong
54. thistlepong
Johnpoint@53

Yes. afaik that's the only one, and I hadn't seen it discussed anywhere until december-ish when someone elsewhere quoted it. Folks confirmed 2nd print and 3rd print paperbacks looked like the hardback and kindle versions.
George Brell
55. gbrell
It's weird that the change was from Silver/Gold to Silver/Silver when it makes more sense as Gold/Gold, since Stapes is claiming to be "in debt" to Kvothe and would therefore be recognizing him as of a higher station.

Perhaps some copy editor caught it in the 1st paperback, but changed the wrong one. It got changed back, but no one has massively publicized the original discrepancy?
thistle pong
56. thistlepong
gbrell@55

It honestly looks like they're from different files. Perhaps the paperback was meant to incorporate corrections to known errors but ended up with more errors than corrections? Oh, and silver/silver makes more sense. Stapes definitely would place Kvothe above himself. The debt is the bone ring.

So far, these are the noted differences:

1b. ch 105 "Interlude - A Certain Sweetness" page 691 pb (1:1)
"Not wrong, Reshi, catastrophic. Jax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon...."
2b. 101 is titled "Close Enough To Touch" while 103 is titled "Lessons"

3b. page 933 pb (1:1)
I handed him Alveron's ring.
Stapes put it in his pocket.
"I also wanted to return these." I handed him the two rings he had given me. One bright silver, one white bone.
1a. page 688 k/hc pb(1:2-x)
“Not wrong, Reshi, catastrophic. Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon...
2a. 101 and 103 are both titled "Close Enough to Touch"

3a. page 927 k/hc pb(1:2-x)
I handed him Alveron’s ring.
Stapes put it in his pocket.
“I also wanted to return these.” I handed him the two rings he had given me. One bright gold, one white bone.
I really need to get ahold of one of these.
Kaizoku
57. Ryan H
Two small things.

The first on the Kvothe/Bast split theory. The very start of WMF chapter 129 Kvothe and Bast are talking about naming theory and Bast specificly states that he did not learn naming theory from Kvothe. At least one point where they have explicitly differnt knowledge.

Secondly, right afterwards Kvothe states that he has 'slept his thousand nights' between hearing the Adem story and relating the names. Timeline wise that means the framing story is taking palce at least 3 years after the end of WMF.
Kaizoku
58. velleity
Two quick thoughts:

1. The angel that Kvothe kills is one of the original Amyr-angels (from Skarpi's story), who, like the Seven, are still alive. I.e.: Perial, Ordal, Andan.

Subpoint to this is that, when the drunk tavern visitor recalls that "I saw the place, in Imre, where you killed him. The cobblestones are all shattered." I don't think that's from killing Ambrose Jakis. I think that's where Kvothe killed the angel.

2. The four-plate door is IN the Archives. I think what's behind it is all the secret information about the Amyr: all the books that have been quietly purged from the main Archives, and from libraries around the world. (Possibly one of the jobs of the armed scrivs who travel the world acquiring books.)
Kaizoku
59. Britunculus
Just a thought or two.

Denna -> Denner (4C term) -> Opium -> Heroin

Kvothe is the bad guy.

Denna is the hero of the upcoming story.

Oh and I buried a comment on an older thread but I'll repeat it here:

I think Bredon is Kvothe's grandfather on his mother's side. He was at the Maer's place to set up the betrothal with the Maer. Bredon knows who Kvothe is which is why he helps him. Big clue is who Kvothe (who often names people correctly with his sleeping mind thinks of Bredon as 'grandfatherly'.
Sahi Rioth
60. Sahirioth
Re: discrepancies/errors in different editions
My copy of WMF is British, hardback, 2nd ed

Silver @ page 442
Gold and bone @ page 927
Iax @ 688
Close Enough To Touch @ chapter 101 & 103

Also, are we not making a mistake? Are the rings from Stapes at pages 442 and 927 the same ring, does Kvothe not get both a silver and a gold at separate occasions? (I honestly can't remember.) Also: printing error or Kvothe lying/getting mixed up/cleverly tricking Bast or Chronicler or both/changing due to making a mistake (i.e. said silver first, but was supposed to be gold)
thistle pong
61. thistlepong
Sahirioth@60

That it was all changed back suggests that at least something in the 1:1 pb was dreadfully wrong. That it wss ever changed suggests that some things in the the primary version is inaccurate.

Stapes never gave him a gold ring, in either version.

See, under normal circumstances errata like thr silver/gold shift would point to an unreliable narrator. The discrepancies wrench certainty.
John Graham
62. JohnPoint
thistlepong @61 -- Alternatively, as you implied above, the 1:1 pb could have been an older file that was accidently sent to the publisher, and not purposefully changed to correct errors. I don't know how publishing works in the digital age, but it seems like the file would have to be reformatted for pb format, etc., so it could well have been an earlier version. Then, after it was published, someone noticed the mistake and they changed the file for the second printing, without correcting (potential) actual errors in the originals.

So in summary, the ring metals could be correct in the original version (silver first, then gold) and an indication of an unreliable narrator or something similar, or they could be an error that wasn't corrected.

Has anyone noticed an error in the 1:1 hc version that WAS corrected in later versions (similar to the triangle issue in NotW)? That might answer part of the question for us...
thistle pong
63. thistlepong
Johnpoint@62

I smell a lotta if comin' off that post. The ambiguities annihilate any chance of certainty regarding those passages. And thus we can say maybe whatever only.

I'd be intrrested in seeing the triangle differences quoted, as I've only heard them referred to. And I'm willing to collaborate with any others in comparing texts. I have 1:1 hc's, kindle versions, and audio.
John Graham
64. JohnPoint
thistlepong @63:
The ambiguities annihilate any chance of certainty regarding those passages. And thus we can say maybe whatever only.
That was more or less what I was trying to say @62. I should have also included another possibility in my summary -- the "error" could have been corrected in the 1:1 pb (along with other errors like the chapter titles and Iax/Jax ), then for some reason they were all changed back to the original text for later pb versions, possibly indicating that one of the "corrections" was itself actually a major error.

I'm also interested in comparing errors and errata in the various versions. I have 1:1 hc NotW, 1:1 hc WMF, and 1:5 hc WMF. I'll try to post the original text of the triangle question tonight (from 1:1 NotW). I've noticed the discrepancy myself, when I've read different versions, but can't quote the text off the top of my head...

I'll also take note of other errors (spelling errors, missing words, etc., of which there are at least a few in the 1:1) during my current reread, and we can determine whether any of those were corrected in later editions.

The ring question is another place that translations might come in handy -- unfortunately I don't have access to any.

Finally, I'd be very interested in comparing WMF 1:1 pb to the ARC -- so if anyone out there has an ARC of WMF, please let us know! (My prediction is that the 1:1 pb is the same text as the ARC, but that's just my gut feeling. And, as thistlopong said @63, there is "a lotta if" in that feeling...)
Dave West
65. Jhirrad
GAH! Why did we have to get a new one of these the same week as A Memory of Light?!? I promise to catch up on this and try to contribute soon ™.
Steven Halter
66. stevenhalter
Here is the triangle problem text from my Nook:
He nodded again, looking at me more closely. “You have a triangle,” he said slowly. “One side is seven feet. Another side, three feet. One angle is sixty degrees. How long is the other side?”
“Is the angle between the two sides?” He nodded. I closed my eyes for the space of half a breath, then opened them again. “Six feet six inches. Dead even.”
Kvothe's answer is wrong. Using the law of cosines:
(a^2 = b^2 + c^2 - 2bc cos C)
a^2 = 9 + 49 -(42 * .5)
a^2 = 58 - 21
a^2 = 37
a ~= 6.0828 feet
or about 6 feet 1 inch.
I saw somewhere that PR admitted that this was a mistake on his part, so the text must show Kvothe getting a correct answer, but there are a few ways to do that:
I would be curious if the text played with one of the given lengths, the given angle or the answer. Fudging one of the lengths makes squaring harder in the time given and changing the angle makes getting the cosine harder (or memorized). Changing the answer pretty much makes taking the Dead even part out--unless all of the numbers are changed to someting easier. Anyone have the updated text?
John Graham
67. JohnPoint
I don't have it with me, but did see the updated text last time I read NotW. Kvothe's answer was something along the lines of: "Six feet one inch. And a hair."

So (if my memory is correct) Pat kept the problem the same, and made Kvothe approximate the correct answer.
Steven Halter
68. stevenhalter
That would be the easiest route to go although hopefully he said less a hair as it is slightly less than one inch.
John Graham
69. JohnPoint
Yeah, 0.0828 is less than 0.0833... ::mild embarassment::

Anyway, I'm 99% certain that the correction was indeed correct, and I'm not positive that he actually used the word "hair," but that's what sticks in my memory. It may have been, "a hair under 6 feet 1 inch," but I think the adjustment came after the 6'1". It may have even been broken into three separate statements: "Six feet. One inch. Less a hair." Or something like that.
Steven Halter
70. stevenhalter
It's actually still somewhat impressive that Kvothe would be able to tell on the fly in a very short time under pressure that the answer is either over or under 6'1". The difference is fairly small.
thistle pong
71. thistlepong
Don't be, he'd een watching admissions for hours and he takes some pains to indicate which questions were new. In short, he cheated.
Steven Halter
72. stevenhalter
thistlepong@71:That's true--I had almost forgotten that point.
Roger Pavelle
73. RogerPavelle
@71 Even though he cheated, it seems nasty for the Masters to expect students to have memorized cosine tables in order to do the calculations in the first place.

- Roger
Steven Halter
74. stevenhalter
RogerPavelle@73:cos(60) = 0.5 isn't that bad. If it had been a random angle, that would be just way too nasty. Doing the law of cosines in your head under pressure is a bit nasty though.
Ashley Fox
75. A Fox
Taking a step to the side here a bit...just reread the scene where K follows D. Noticed something curious.

"She was moving through the crowd with a definate purpose, walking as if she had somewher important to be."
" I saw Denna stop suddenly at the mouth of a shodowed alley. she craned her neck for a moment, as if listening to something."

As if her Name was being called? She stops the rape, threatens to castrate the rapist if he doesnt leave. Later when she and the girl are speaking.

"...your accent. Where are you from?" That missing part could quite well be 'I recocognise..'

The girl's father is 'stable master' to a 'baron' in the 'western farrel'. The 'eldest son' is' going to take me anyway', force/ing himself on her.

Jakis is a boron. I'm pretty sure of a western farrel. Ambrose has a certain reputation.

We do not know what happens to the girl, although we know that D helps her with whatever path she chooses.

Ambrose was gone for the winter term. The girl had been a month in servern.

K's pregnancy letter...

Later when K returns her ring (after already blundering by leering at her, and his 'I get what I want') he say's he got it from Ambrose. Not I stole it from and set fire to his rooms, merely got as if two men passing ownership. She goes cold. She's dated and ran from him, possibly heard how he raped one of his families servant girls, then K speaks of a seemingly affable relationship with him...

Oh and on Bast/K divide (I know, Iknow...but more support keeps popping up!):
" My memories of my time in the Fae were oddly patchy,none more than my confrontation with Felurian, which had an odd, almost dreamlike quality to it. When I tried to remember it in detail, it almost seemed as if it had happened to another person."
George Brell
76. gbrell
Re: Law of Cosines

Most trig students can easily figure out cos(60) because it's the main component in the 30-60-90 triangle, which has sides of 1-root(3)-2 (respectively, paired with the angle opposite), which comes up all the time because two of them result from bisecting an equilateral triangle.

So all it's asking him to do is square two numbers, multiply them and then take the root of the resulting sum. Since 37 is so close to 36, it's obvious that it should be slightly greater than 6. Squaring 61 in your head is relatively easy (just multiply 60x62 and add 1 -> 3721, add two decimal places -> 37.21). So that makes his approximate answer impressive without being insane or the product of cheating (though he might have).
George Brell
77. gbrell
Re: Silver vs. Gold

The ring almost certainly should be silver. Check Chapter Sixty-Five.

"I placed silver ring on a tray in my sitting room. The bowl next to it now had two silver rings glittering among the iron."

And then later in the same chapter:

“But this,” he said, “is not horn. The grain is wrong, and Stapes would never give a horn ring alongside a silver one.”
Jeremy Raiz
78. Jezdynamite
A.Fox @ 23
thanks. I've got three WoT books to read now. And lots of catching up on the storyline before that to get up to speed.
Steven Halter
79. stevenhalter
gbrell@76:Right, it isn't out of the question at all that Kvthe could have answered the question--the question is only somewhat difficult given the context (standing in front of the Masters) and time crunch. Even if Kvothe cheated, someone came up with the answer in that situation.
Steven Halter
80. stevenhalter
Pat's latest worldbuilder blog post lists more excellent things to try to get by donating (or just because it is a good cause). Of particular interest, the copper knife guys made another copper knife and a "lady's knife" and in the intro to the lady's knife he mentions:
Since not everyone is going to need to kill something mythic.
Obviously implying that the copper knife is just the thing for killing something mythic.
thistle pong
81. thistlepong
Wow. If they hit 350k, they'll produce the Lockless Box.
Steven Halter
82. stevenhalter
Yes, that's one of the useful things. I wonder if it will be complete with a piece of obsidium stained with the blood of a demigod.
John Graham
84. JohnPoint
gbrell @77 --

Yeah, that certainly seems like the case. However, in my mind, the weirdest part is that the 1:1 pb is "corrected" to silver both times, but later printings were changed back to gold when Kvothe returns it to Stapes. Though, as thistlepong indicated above, there were other changes in the 1:1 pb that aren't in any of the other editions (chapter titles, and such). That's why I think that the 1:1 pb is an earlier draft (ARC or beta reader version) that was mistakenly published, and not an attempt to correct errors. If that's the case, we're left with the question of whether Pat meant it to be gold the second time or whether it's an error.

Re the Lockless box: sweet! I wonder what they'll use for the wood. It's also not clear whether they'll make several/many of them, or just one...
thistle pong
85. thistlepong
JohnPoint@84

I'm pretty sure bluejo was going off the ARC through at least ch105 of the WMF reread. ::vague, distant:: While it might be inappropriate to press for details, you might be able to check the chapter titles against those in the posts. Pretty sure that's the only reason I thought to ask about those particular numbers.
thistle pong
86. thistlepong
Checked quickly. Jo's ARC and the 1:1 pb chapter titles are incommensurate.
Nisheeth Pandey
87. Nisheeth
Wondering, what will he put in the leocles box? And will it be given out before or after D3 is published?
And will it have the yllish knots on it?
Ashley Fox
88. A Fox
Argh I want that box.

Here's an intersting inerview on heifer/calender themes:
http://www.fantasyliterature.com/author-interviews/patrick-rothfuss-discusses-his-2013-fantasy-pin-up-calendar/
Jo Walton
89. bluejo
I was going from the ARC up to March when I bought the Kindle version, and I think I continued to go by the ARC chapter numbers just for consistency, though when I was in Britain with the Kindle and without the ARC I might have got confused.

I believe that when I originally got the ARC there was something about not quoting from it without checking the actual published version, to which I should have perhaps paid some attention... too late now. Surely they realise when they hand these things out that people might use them for this kind of thing!

I have an ARC of NW too, but I mostly used the paperback.

The ring he gives back to Stapes is gold in the ARC, but it's silver when he gets it.
Jo Walton
90. bluejo
There will be a post on Thursday, but it won't be a standard speculative summary, it's some stuff I noticed when I was re-reading both books (as e-books) all the way through this week.

Also I WANT THE BOX. Even if I can't open it. I have donated, in the hope that my mite might help. I want the box to exist.
thistle pong
91. thistlepong
bluejo@90 That sounds excellent; except two posts in two weeks is terribly distracting :) Thnaks for confirming the silver/gold bit.
Steven Halter
92. stevenhalter
Jo@90:Cool--speaking of rereading, these books are rewarding for that. The box would look really nice on a mantle--just getting it to exist would be excellent. I would also be torn with actually asking him for a favor or keeping the ring. Ahh, good to dream.
thistle pong
93. thistlepong
The favor would be telling us if the box would have that stone in it. Or can I be your amanuensis? That was some breathless nerdery right there.
Steven Halter
94. stevenhalter
thistlepong@93:lol. I saw one of Pat's criteria for his assistants is to not mind seeing him without pants.
thistle pong
95. thistlepong
Nobody wants to talk about depictions of women in the books. However, I totally wanna share this interview he gave about the pinup calendars. I'd also like to thank A Fox for exposing me to it.

http://www.fantasyliterature.com/author-interviews/patrick-rothfuss-discusses-his-2013-fantasy-pin-up-calendar/

In it, he's rather more open and direct about, well, a lot of the stuff we've hassled over than we've seen in print before.

Edit: we're all barbarians here in the middle america, stevenhalter
Steven Halter
96. stevenhalter
thistlepong@95:Thanks for the interview link. The calendar is an interesting experiment. I understand the points Pat is making and the comments from Briggs, Carey, Harris and Hobbs were very good.
Pat has said before that he is well aware of the issues that he is dealing with both in the calendar and the various pieces of the books that we have discussed in the past.
thistle pong
97. thistlepong
What the heck? This one will be thrown over for tomorrow's anyway.

You should have been able to infer that, while I suspected he wouldn't wear something that said "My Marxist-Feminist Dialectic Brings All the Boys to the Yard," without a nuanced appreciation of the subjects, I haven't been wholly satisfied to that effect by his public statements.

You seem to be suggesting that I might have missed blogs or interviews. If so, I'd dearly love some links to point me in the right direction. The most recent blog re: feminism was a bit of a sham. The most innocuous wide eyed email propped up some very easy, very vague responses. This interview was entirely different, perhaps because Hobb articulated the position he often takes and freed him up a bit.
Steven Halter
98. stevenhalter
I'll have to look around a bit. I seem to recall Pat saying something along these lines somewhere, but don't recall where just now.
"My Marxist-Feminist Dialectic Brings All the Boys to the Yard,"
Is full of win.
Yes, I am not wholly satisfied with some apparant contradictions in parts of the book (and pin-up) that seem to be, well problematic would be a good term.
It is good to think about these things. (The unexamined position and all) Unfortunately, online things can turn into shoutyness--although we mostly avoid that here.
Jo Walton
99. bluejo
I'd be happy to do a post about women in the books... but I do find the calendar extremely problematic. It's problematic depending on where you put it. In the bedroom, no problem, in the living room... don't ask me round. In the workplace... completely unacceptable. You look at that kind of picture and it's bringing sex into the atmosphere, and a particular view of sex. There are times and places where that's inappropriate -- workplaces, and also as the interviewer says, living rooms of houses with children.

I've no problem with people looking at people they find attractive, but once you get that out in public and hang it on the wall where other people have to look at it whether they like it or not you're making a different kind of statement. That statement is "I am putting this in your face, deal." This is not about whether you like looking at sexy women, it's not about whether sexy women like being looked at, it's about whether it's OK to impose your desire to see sexy women over my desire not to. I've worked in offices with pin up calendars, and it was horrible and very difficult to find a way to say you're uncomfortable -- especially in a position where it's majority male. Looking at that calendar, which I hadn't seen before, reminded me a lot of that kind of situation and made me feel very uncomfortable.
Steven Halter
100. stevenhalter
Jo:I had pretty much the same reaction to the calendar. I found it questionable, uncomfortable and had no particular desire to order it. As you say, it really wouldn't go anywhere in our house.
Now, I can appreciate that the artist and the writers who volunteered characters are both aware of the problems and trying to make the pictures non-objectifying. For me, they didn't quite get to their goal.
A post dealing with the women in the books would be quite interesting and hopefully a good discussion.
Ashley Fox
101. A Fox
You guys are like a comfy blanket.

"My Marxist-Feminist Dialectic Brings All the Boys to the Yard,"

This made me giggle, then snort, then laugh at my snorting, then snort again. Well done.

Jo, my curiousity is piqued to see what you have unearthed.

I will also through in my support for a study of the women post. If I may suggest an aspect?

The Male Gaze. Comp the scene with Fela at the end of WMF and the scene with D&K at the river (stone story).

We've discussed the Fela section before but having recently reread these bits I believe they are worth examing together.

On the calender. I own it. I got my friend into KKC and he offered to buy it for my birthday. I must say I had similar concerns as you peeps, and still do to a certain extent.

But the art as captured more than the sexuality of the women, its captured their characters, the feel of the books ect. (Felurian and Cersai being the most erotic...understandably!) It's interesting to read each authors take and then look at the resulting work.

Gaimens, centred in June, is interesting in that it is very knowing. Amanda Palmer's flagrant sexuality, her hairy armpit (made me laugh, there was a nice moment when I unwrapped my gift with friends, inc the one who's hair related poem was read by Palmer, in the buff, to Gaimen (meta mind implode)) and expression that challenges as she holds up a calender. B&W version, same pose etc, but with her in a demure 50's frock, holding up a calender of...
George Brell
102. gbrell
I would also love a post discussing the role of women in the books.

Re: the calendar

I feel that I have a very similar reaction to a lot of posters. I find the images impressive, but I have no idea where I would display it. It's definitely not workplace appropriate and I wasn't sure that I wanted to make any specific statement by hanging it in my home (and I'm pretty sure it's a statement of some kind).

With that said, I appreciated the interview and it's more fleshed-out discussion of the issues (I also agree with thistlepong that his re: feminism email was a fluff piece).

"My Marxist-Feminist Dialectic Brings All the Boys to the Yard"

This may make it onto a shirt.
EDIT: Or already has:
tshirthell.com/funny-shirts/my-marxist-feminist-dialectic-brings-all-the-boys-to-the-yard/
Kaizoku
103. Marco.
"The most recent blog re: feminism was a bit of a sham."
@97
Couldn't agree more.
One of my professors delivered a great speech years ago about the difference between people who want to make art and people who want to be artists. I think we're seeing shades of that here.
Steven Halter
104. stevenhalter
gbrell@102:I had no idea that was an actual meme--well played thistlepong.

That would be an amusing twist. What Denna has actually been doing in all of her moving from place to place is organizing the proletariat of the 4C in a workers revolution.
Ashley Fox
105. A Fox
"That would be an amusing twist. What Denna has actually been doing in
all of her moving from place to place is organizing the proletariat of
the 4C in a workers revolution."

This would be all kinds of awesome. (But then maybe I'm biased).
thistle pong
106. thistlepong
Well, there are a couple constraints on that. Notably, if he's any kind of modern Marxist he'll see the folly of transitioning from preindustrial feudalism to soviet collectivism. And there's been no foreshadowing of any kind to that effect. ::binary five, winky face::

@104 no rly
Steven Halter
107. stevenhalter
Now that I went to his blog and found that article, I can actually Remeber reading that when it came out. Too many threads going today; stack dump and overflow. ;-/
Sahi Rioth
108. Sahirioth
@bluejo (99)
What. The. F**k? I don't know if you just expressed yourself clumsily, or you seriously meant what you said, but this one sentence in an otherwise good post made me angry:
it's about whether it's OK to impose your desire to see sexy women over my desire not to
Perhaps you didn't realize, but this is uncannily similar to what homophobes say about gay couples' public displays of affection. Essentially, "keep that in the bedroom, so those who don't want to see it don't have to". The problem with the pin-up calendar is NOT with people's desire to see sexy women, it's HOW they see sexy women, namely as an object and nothing more. I totally agree a pin-up calendar has no place in a workplace, but that's because it's a clear statement that objectifying women is fine. Whereas if it's in a bedroom it could plausibly be more about the sexy than the objectification (but still cause one to wonder why the owner of the calendar bought an item that so clearly objectifies women in the first place).
Bridget McGovern
109. BMcGovern
@Sahirioth, 108: Stepping in as moderator here, with a reminder that we try to keep things civil. If you have a question about how Jo or any of the commenters in this discussion have expressed themselves, by all means ask them to clarify or explain what they meant, but please try to do so in a respectful manner and tone. Thanks.
thistle pong
110. thistlepong
Sahirioth@108

Even deliberately removed from context, the bit you quoted is still rich enough to portray the desire to see rather than to be.
Jo Walton
111. bluejo
Sahiroth -- Where I've heard homophobes saying "keep it in the bedroom" is about holding hands and kissing where that would be fine for straight couples, which is discrination. If people (of any gender and sexuality) were actually having sex in the street or in the workplace, would you still object to a request to "keep it in the bedroom"? Can nobody ever say that in any circumstances?
Nisheeth Pandey
112. Nisheeth
Going off the current topic of discussion, I noticed some other things:
1) We know that Kvothe takes a single perfect step at the end of WMF. I made search for the phrase, and apart from this one instance, it was only used to describe Shehyn's ketan thrice.
i) Once when she tests Kvothe's ketan.
ii) Twice during her duel with Penthe.

2) I noticed a bit too many mentions of the bottles (in the bar and around) in the Frame. (these are the ones I can remember on the top of my head):
i) Kvothe breaks one when he is angry at Chronicler (NotW, The Price of Remembering (I think)).
ii) Kvothe uses one as a weapon against the skin-dancer.
iii) Bast fixates upon them when he is passing his time in the morning (WMF, the first chapter).
iv) The mercenaries take one from Kvothe when they rob him. (WMF)
v) Kvothe looked at them for a moment before leaving to go to his room.(WMF, Locks).

3) This might be just me, but why was Bast distracted at the end of WMF (ch. Locks). he has a blank expression, not moving etc. He also seems to be lacking energy. Was it becasue of his failed attempt with the mercenaries?
George Brell
113. gbrell
@112.Nisheeth:

The most common interpretation of the single perfect step I've seen (and that I agree with) is that Kvothe/Kote is practicing the Ketan ("he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step."). I think, based on context, he's probably returning to it after a long hiatus. What that means in connection with the Kvothe/Kote divide, his possibly locked up Name/lute/cloak/etc., and the story is unclear. Though I think it's interesting to tie in to the "masks" theory that Bast espouses at the end of NotW.

*Sidenote re: masks: if anyone hasn't read Mother Night by Vonnegut, I strenuously suggest it as Bast's mask theory is one of the central plot points.

There are a lot of bottles. I think the contents of the bottles is also important. He breaks a bottle of strawberry wine (i), the same wine that he shares with Denna in the Trebon chapters. The mercenaries take a bottle of elderberry alcohol (iv), apparently upon the direction of Bast.

Bast's lethargy could be because of the failure of the mercenaries to re-awaken Kvothe. But since his mood doesn't seem to end until he and Chronicler discuss the Cthaeh, I'd say that it's more tied to the conversation that the three have in Ch. 105 (Interlude-A Certain Sweetness): the story is a tragedy.
thistle pong
114. thistlepong
@113

(And others)

Thanks for the book recommendation. Anyone else recognize bits from other books?
Carl Banks
115. robocarp
I guess my concern about the calendar is the jarring psychic effect. Usually it's interesting to see other people's visualizations, and it's often uncannily similar to mine. But I saw a thumbnail-sized image of Felurian from the calendar, and have no desire to see it full size. It was so different from how I visualized her it was painful.

(Also, Phedre's marque was disappointing. I imagined it to be intricate and colorful, not a glorified barb wire.)

I suppose that effect is more likely for sexy characters, because we tend to invest more into their physical appearance.
Nisheeth Pandey
116. Nisheeth
@gbrell, 113:
About the first, I agree that he was practicing the Ketan (that was what I thought as well). What I noticed was that the Perfect Step was something shown only be the Sheyn, some-one whose Ketan is considered extremely good. Sonething Kvothe's Ketan was not wen he left the Adem.

Regarding the bottles, I seem to remember Denna wanting a strawberry wine, but Kvothe didn't have it because he refused the tinker's offer.

About Bast, that makes more sense. Thanks.

Edit: Oh, and the book you suggested, I will give it a read, after I get done with Garden's of the Moon.
George Brell
117. gbrell
@116.Nisheeth:

He takes a series of perfect steps during his test with the Adem:

I moved through the dancing branches of the sword tree. Not running, not frantically batting them away with my hands. I stepped carefully, deliberately. It was, I realized, the way Shehyn moved when she fought. Not quickly, though sometimes she was quick. She moved perfectly, always where she needed to be.

He and Denna share strawberry wine in NotW Ch. 65 ("Spark").

You are correct, however, that he turns down the Tinker's offer of strawberry wine (and to quote Denna, "that's what you get for not listening to a tinker").

He also acquires strawberry wine twice for her after Trebon, but she's already left and nothing indicates he ever gives it to her.

There are no mentions of strawberry wine that I can find in WMF.

Enjoy Gardens of the Moon.
Steven Halter
118. stevenhalter
Nisheeth@116:There is also a very good reread of the Malazan books here at Tor. Feel free to check in.
Adam Price
119. Zuphlas
It might been mentioned before, but rather than the Chandrian powering Kvothe's thunderbolt, I thought that the implication was that Cinder *travelled* by thunderbolt, tying in with the nonsense rhyme about the Chandrian that seems to only have the one important line (and thus purpose of being included specifically in the story) that 'they come and go in the blink of an eye, like a bright bolt of lightning out of the sky'. While Kvothe mentions that his galvanic binding is trying to attract lightning, it's also reported that there was more than one lightning bolt - I wondered if Cinder might have drawn one in to travel by before the bolt that Kvothe drew down hit the tree.

Haliax has his shadow travel, as we see in the first book, but he also says that he doesn't always go out with them - I assume that they didn't just walk away from the scene of the crime when he wasn't there.
George Brell
120. gbrell
@110.Zuphlas:

Welcome to the re-read!

I wrote a rather long piece about Cinder and the weather that hypothesized travel-by-lightning, but it didn't spark a ton of discussion. Look it over and see if it sparks any further thoughts on your part:

tor.com/blogs/2011/12/rothfuss-reread-the-wise-mans-fear-part-17-all-the-stories-in-the-world#232512
Adam Price
121. Zuphlas
Thanks gbrell! I see what you mean, must have missed your comments there, I'm glad it's not just me who took that away from the poem.

Interesting idea about their means of travel being different and to do with their signs, but I think personally I'm leaning more towards lightning being a more general talent. In the discussion Ben has with Arliden and Laurian, there are no fewer than two mentions that the Chandrian come and go like lightning (though he actually says from 'a clear blue sky', which definitely had me thinking of it as a talent or form of magic). Given how careful Rothfuss appears to be with descriptions, I'd have expected to have had at least one other clue from folk legend as to alternative forms of travel if they each had individual versions - it's interesting I think that there's no mention that I can recall where they travel by shadow, though we've seen them do that. Which is the sort of thing I'd expect if lightning was a far more common way for them to travel when Haliax wasn't there.
Kaizoku
122. Silver
the anger of a gentle man.
Could that be Kvothe being reffered to, albeit out of timeline? It's often anger/greif that preceeds the calling of the wind.
Anger when he realises the Bandits are just that, leading to their deaths
Angry Argument with D leads to the cool of their relationship

Just a thought, though it might just be ordinary truth.
If anyone wants to run with this, please do
Kaizoku
123. A SCIENTIST
“It was like watching Tarsus bursting out of hell. You came through the fire and I knew everything was going to be alright.”(NW502)

The Christian St. Paul (Paul of TARSUS) was responsible for the formation of the Roman (mainstream) Christian Church. Although not an associate of Jesus his work (following his convversion on the road to Damascus) led to the incorporation of non-Jews into the church, which they ultimately came to dominate. Perhaps the use of Tarsus suggests a role for this individual in the conversion of the actual events of Tehlu's story into the modern church?

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