Aug 30 2012 2:00pm

Rothfuss Reread: Speculative Summary 13: The Way He Knew His Own Hands

The Patrick Rothfuss Re-read on, Speculative Summary 13: The Way He Knew His Own HandsMy excessively detailed reread of Patrick Rothfuss’s Kingkiller Chronicles is over, but the speculation goes on. I’m going to post the occasional speculative summary of cool things posted since last time. Spoilers for all of The Wise Man’s Fear and The Name of the Wind—these discussions assume you’ve read all of both books, and frankly they won’t make the slightest bit of sense if you haven’t. This post is full of spoilers, please don’t venture beyond the cut unless you want them.   

Abbreviations: NW = The Name of the Wind. WMF = The Wise Man’s Fear. D3 = Day Three, the forthcoming final volume. K = Kvothe or Kote when I can’t figure out what to call him and I’m feeling Kafkaesque. MT: Myr Tariniel. D = Denna, 4C = Four Corners, CTH—that thing I can’t spell! IID3Y = Is it Day Three Yet?

Useful links: The Sleeping Under the Wagon post. The re-read index. The map. The timeline. Imaginary Linguistics.

Do you know how many Rothfuss threads have been posted on since last time I did a speculative summary at the end of July? Not how many comments, how many threads? 27. Not tired of talking about this yet, are you? And is it D3 yet? It is not. Not even a little bit.

But Thurule had Pat sign his Kindle!

To save you from ferreting about at the bottom of 27 threads, it’s time for a new summary thread.



Dangerzone wonders about different types of waystones:

One is standing upright and the other laying flat, which we were told happens sometimes from age. However, Arliden’s rhyme indicates that there may be a more meaningful distinction. The rhyme identifies Standing stones, Laystone, and Greystone. 

We’ve talked about the rhyme and “something something ell” but not considered whether there is a distinction there, and there could be. Where do we see waystones that aren’t upright standing stones? That one where he sits with D in the sea of stars, the ones near Trebon, any others? I don’t think we know enough about them generally to be able to tell. Anyone?


Spades Again

Dangerzone considers Elodin’s question from an angle we haven’t examined—not how did he know, but why did he ask that?

When Manet gives Kvothe the business about the spades he’s angry that Kvothe is distracted and not paying attention to the game in front of him. He’s being sarcastic, asking this patently obvious question in order to draw Kvothe’s attention back.

So, I would suggest that Elodin was doing the same thing. The question is who does he think is not paying attention, what game does he think is being missed, and what exactly did he want to draw attention to?

I think it’s the Master’s manipulation of Kvothe who at the very least they must recognize as a powerful and potentially dangerous Arcanist. Elodin is basically saying “Hey! Look at what’s going on around you.” (reminiscent of his line about his teaching Kvothe even though Kvothe refuses to learn).

However, he may also have been trying to get the Master’s attention drawn to Kvothe, a young but talented student that is going to require better than their usual steering in order to keep him in line.

At the very least it demonstrates his lack of respect for the Admissions process which all of the other Masters seem to take seriously enough.

It would be more likely to get Kvothe’s attention, as Kvothe knows what it meant when he heard it before, whereas it would be incomprehensible to the Masters, I’d think?


Justice in Siaru

Dangerzone again—I think you’d better be promoted to E’lir in the department of Imaginary Linguistics.

Rothfuss DID spend a lot of time on a small sequence between Wil and Kvothe. Specifically the definition of “Sheyem” a Siaru word that translates to balanced. Wil mimics a scale with his hands to indicate this.

Capital-J “Justice” Erlus, who arrested Skarpi a few chapters [before], wore a necklace of scales.

The old-woman in WMF who runs the Ademre School is named “Sheyen.” I bet there’s a connection there. At least it would indicate her name means Justice or Judge or something similar.

Except that there isn’t a connection between Ademic and Siaru, is there? And even if there is, while she is asked to judge whether Kvothe can stay, she isn’t a judge. What she is though is balanced—both mentally and physically. If that’s the root of the word it may also be the root of the name.


Ruh, Ruach


It would seem to me (and maybe someone has posted this elsewhere, but I can’t find it) clear that the Ruh are descendants of at least the purpose of the Ruach, singing “songs of power” and all that. Ruh and Ruach are Arabic and Hebrew (respectively) words that mean both Wind and Spirit.

That does seem suggestive to say the least.

Coyote Blue:

“Ruh” is Arabic for spirit or breath, and I’m pretty sure it’s “Ruach” in Hebrew. Edema Ruh = Spirit of the Adem? Adam’s Breath?

The human spirit is associated with the Breath of God in Genesis, since it’s what animates the dust. Hebrew tradition also divides into written and oral versions of Biblical history. Interesting, and possibly not coincidental, that the Ademre seem a bit more focused on exactitude, while the Ruh are prototypical “free spirits” - but they seem related etymologically.


The Stars, Kvothe’s Hands

Dangerzone points out something from right at the beginning, before I was paying attention to hands:

“Looking up, he saw a thousand stars glittering in the deep velvet of a night with no moon. He knew them all, their stories and their names. He knew them in a familiar way, the way he knew his own hands.”

I think there is a LOT in that paragraph. For one, when did he have the time to learn all of their names and stories? Secondly, with all of the discussion about Kote’s hands....

I think if we’re willing to anthromorphize the Moon (and I’m on board with that) then we ought to consider the Stars/Aleu as well.



Rhinna/Roah Wood

GBrell has a typically interesting insight:

Perhaps that wood has the unique ability to trap things. There are at least two entities that are known to be trapped: the Cthaeh and Iax. So it’s certainly possible that the box holds something keeping those entities trapped.

If this is the case, what is K doing using it for his mounting board for Folly? Does he want to trap Folly? (Good luck with that!)

And Tim Kington has a thought on Folly:

“It looked as if an alchemist had distilled a dozen swords

What if this is because Kvothe Shaped the sword using a Name for Sword? It would be the very essence of a sword then.

It would, wouldn’t it? And it would be a foolish thing to do too, maybe?


K’s State Again


I’m personally convinced that he is in the same state he was as a stray in Tarbean but this time he has affected this change upon himself purposely. I believe that he isn’t fully awakened after being Named by Skarpi until he plays the lute at the camp fire on the way to Imre and that the song he plays is his own name (there’s been plenty discussion on this relating to his playing the names of things when in the forest, etc.). I’m of the solid opinion that the reason there “of course” is no music is that it would open the doors of the mind to his hidden self and that’s what he needs to avoid at all costs.


That’s how I’ve read the Kote/Kvothe divide as well.

Assuming that we’re right, however, we need to consider a couple discrepancies.

Kote/Kvothe is able to fight the scrael. This doesn’t seem to involve sympathy, but seems to require his fighting talents. As an explanation, in WMF, he tells Bast that he “picked the time and place for the scrael rather carefully” which seems to imply that he can undo at least some portion of the Kote binding.

I’m also not sure our awake/sleeping distinction explains the fight with the two soldiers. Kvothe is clearly winning until one of the soldiers “jerked his arm roughly out of the innkeeper’s grip. Kvothe had half a moment to look startled before the soldier’s elbow caught him in the temple.” Do we believe that Kvothe acted out the fight prior to that point subconsciously? He has the talent until he seems to lose it.

After that point, he tries to do the two-handed variant of Break Lion (or at least that’s what I’ve always interpreted his attempt as), but can’t make it work. This is like the sympathy with the skinwalker, knowledge of the skill, but an inability to perform it.

The two aren’t really the same. And I’m not sure the conscious/subconscious divide explains them.

We also need to explain Kote/Kvothe’s “one single perfect step” on the last page of WMF. Do we interpret that as implying that the Ketan and his Ademic fighting skills aren’t lost to Kote, just unpracticed? I’m more inclined to believe that he would have lost those skills as well as his ability to perform sympathy. (This is also a problem for any theory that argues that the Waystone Inn itself limits Kvothe, as is the exploding wine bottle.).

My opinion at this point is that Kvothe’s alar broke, much like the much-mentioned Ramston steel. This prevents him from performing conscious sympathy, but doesn’t limit his sleeping mind.

I think it’s likely that he has re-Named himself, owing to the giant foreshadow with Elodin at the end of WMF. How that affects him specifically is completely unclear to me, but I think you’re right that music reharmonizes him to his true Name. Hence why he was recognized by the traveler at the beginning of NotW after he sang.

How this fits with whatever is held in his thrice-locked chest is also unclear to me, but I think Jo’s theory of his lute is probably the most logical. Although, part of me thinks that Marten’s story of Taborlin the Great may give us more clues. In it, the King Scyphus placed Taborlin’s sword, staff, cloak, key and coin.

We haven’t seen a staff, but Kvothe has certainly acquired the sword, cloak, key and coin. Perhaps those are the items in the chest?

He could get a staff in D3 and put it in.

There used to be weird small ads in the back of magazines when I was a kid that said “Open Joanna Southcott’s Box!” I always used to wonder what they were talking about and why they were so vehement about it. Sometimes they said things like “Perplexity and distress of nations will continue until they open Joanna Southcott’s box!” I have transferred all desire for box opening to Kvothe’s chest, and it’s only because there’s an internet that I’m not posting cryptic ads.

Thistlepong, following on from this in regards to K’s alar:

Assuming his Alar is broken, what if there’s nothing esoteric (well, beyond it already being magic) about it? What if whatever betrayal he suffered constituted an irreconcilable challenge to his ability to believe. I can imagine his certainty with regard to a few things already being core to Kvothe-in-the-story. Destroy one and he undergoes the existential crisis, unable to really believe in anything without doubt anymore.

Could be.


Alexandria Quartet


I can’t help but think that we’re going to see an Alexandria Quartet style novel all from Denna’s viewpoint, once the main sequence is finished. Or maybe just how awesome that could be.

That would be totally awesome and I would buy it in a heartbeat.


A Hint from the Brazilian Translation?

Bernardo says:

i’d like to point out that in brazilian’s edition there’s a translation mistake (probably) that seems to give out something.

master ash in portuguese version is ‘mestre freixo’
and cinder is

in page 516 denna sais freixo gris’ instead of mestre freixo’ or just freixo’

If this is an error because the translator knew something, it would certainly be evidence, but it’s the kind of real world external evidence I don’t like. Still.


Master Ash

Arcticcivvie summarises the Cinder argument very well:

Maybe the biggest reason I feel this way is that Kvothe is actually pretty good at naming, although he doesn’t realize it. I think that’s a deliberate theme on Rothfuss’s part. He names his horse “One-Sock” on accident. He names “Auri,” and that’s significant too, according to Elodin. He even guesses Nell’s name. Just like he often says seven words around Denna, he often names things correctly. And so when trying to pick a name for Denna’s patron, Zizoz is right- he picks all F names in a row, getting very close several times to Ferule. Then he settles on “Ash,” which is (in English) another word for Cinder.

Also, Kvothe has an interesting exchange with the Ctheah, who, of course, spends the conversation teasing him with hidden truths and wordplay. The Ctheah gives him some hints and details about Cinder (although Kvothe is having a hard time figuring it out). Then in his next sentence he says “He beats her, you know...” referring to Denna and her patron. Read straight through, it seems like a subtle reference, telling Kvothe exactly who Denna’s patron is, although Kvothe misses that, too.

I don’t think we can get any further with this without new information.

Coyote Blue has an off-the-wall new suggestion:

The “seven words” sequences are what make me consider it. Kvothe says seven words upon first meeting Denna that make her fall in love with him. Elodin asks Kvothe about seven words during the first entrance exam. Denna later asks if “writing stuff down” magic exists, and constantly points out whenever Kvothe says charming sentences of exactly seven words. Elodin uses Fela as an example when explaining to Kvothe why he doesn’t get naming...but when Kvothe “forces the issue” near the end of WMF, he doesn’t use seven words, and Elodin’s romantic lesson remains unlearned.

Elodin is already the dangerous-but-loveable third rail. He clearly doesn’t give a rip about his reputation, and knows too much. What if he’s playing both sides? What if the ill-fated relationship with Denna is in his interest? 

I really don’t think so because of how he reacts when Kvothe mentions name-changing. If he knew D, he’d know about that and he wouldn’t react the same way.


The Ever Moving Moon


We know from the frame that the moon is still moving. At the beginning of NW there’s no moon. At the end of WMF there’s moonlight. So, regarding Jax’s box and the Loeclos box, one of the following must be true. Thery’re not the same, or he doesn’t open it.

That does seem inarguable.


The Name of the Wind

Wallace Forman has an intriguing idea:

Remember when Elodin makes his class look for twenty books and Kvothe finds all of them except for one, called “En Temerant Voistra” which no one seems to have heard of?

If that isn’t it precisely, then it is some other name which Elodin is trying to trick the students into chasing without realising it.

My guess is that it literally means “The name of the wind” or “The Wind’s Name” in some language Kvothe and the other students do not know (but is not the wind’s “true name”), and master Elodin was attempting to force the students’ sleeping minds to seek out the wind’s name, unbeknownst, the traditional first task of student namers.

I love this. Anyone Imaginary Linguists got any evidence one way or the other? I love it, it just seems such an Elodin thing to do.


CTH and the Frame


if Rothfuss’s original draft didn’t have the frame story, did it not have the Cthaeh? (or Bast?) Because the frame story as currently written has Kvothe unaware of the extent of the Cthaeh’s influence until midway through day 2. This means that if the Cthaeh were included the Cthaeh would have influenced the story in the original draft, but never gotten textual credit.

This is the most meta worry of all time! I swoon with my hand on my forehead. And how very like the CTH it would be to do that and nobody know!

Seriously, I don’t think these books would be anything like as good without the frame. It’s the narrative cleverness that makes them worth paying attention to. And of course Rothfuss knows that, and it’s why he rewrote them. Is rewriting them.

A Fox:

I am a firm supporter of the theory that K is waiting as honey in a trap, playing his own beautiful game, the right way (hopefully!). I like to imagine that the frame would have appeared last, following his story in a linear manner, but that it was rearranged to add more drama and mystery. 

Drama and mystery and narrative tension. Don’t underestimate narrative tension. There’s warp and woof here because of the frame, we have the border but not the middle.

Me, on how the CTH messed up Kvothe:

Going to Ademre meant that Kvothe missed the wedding, where he might have learned a lot. And it meant that he killed the false troupe—he had the skill and he was in the right place—which made a break with the Maer. If he hadn’t spoken to the CTH he wouldn’t have gone beyond the Stormwal in pursuit of the Chandrian and might have had a completely different time back in Severen.



Valyrian asks:

Has someone already tried to put the various pieces of “road” and “path” imagery into context? We have the broken road in Hespe’s story. We have Tehlu’s two sides of the road in Trapis’ story. Then Kvothe’s quote about music and how the Lethani relates to roads/paths (it’s not a path, but it helps choose the path). Anything else? The Edema Ruh live on the road. I feel like it turns up too often to not be related somehow, but so far I can’t make sense of it.

The Old Stone Road?

Lots more great speculation on the Tinker Tanner post, far too much to summarize all of it.

Jo Walton is a science fiction and fantasy writer. She’s published two poetry collections and nine novels, most recently the Nebula winning Among Others. She reads a lot, and blogs about it here regularly. She comes from Wales but lives in Montreal where the food and books are more varied.

Mordicai Knode
1. mordicai
I'm only halfway through "Wise Man's Fear" so I can't read this, but! My big theory is that the whole frame sequence of Kote & the inn & Chronicler is a trap for the Chandrian. We know they intervene when stories about them are told, & Kvothe is building the biggest, baddest story of them all...& when they come, he's going to bring the sky down on them.

That is my guess, anyhow.
Gary Singer
2. AhoyMatey
I didn't realize you were still posting on this, Jo. Awesome! At least I'm caught up now...

@1, I thought it was trying to name the Chandrian individually, or using their names, that called to them. Otherwise they would have caught K while he was studying.
3. chibi
I've read the books for the first time only half a year ago, and reading these, I already feel like rereading them...
4. Tox
Thistlepong, following on from this in regards to K’s alar

What if whatever betrayal he suffered constituted an irreconcilable challenge to his ability to believe. I can imagine his certainty with regard to a few things already being core to Kvothe-in-the-story. Destroy one and he undergoes the existential crisis, unable to really believe in anything without doubt anymore.

What if Ds song (the one that master Ash is helping with) is the correct song and what K beleved was wrong.
Dave West
5. Jhirrad
The Name of the Wind
Wallace Forman has an intriguing idea:
Remember when Elodin makes his class look for twenty books and Kvothe finds all of them except for one, called “En Temerant Voistra” which no one seems to have heard of?
If that isn’t it precisely, then it is some other name which Elodin is trying to trick the students into chasing without realising it.
My guess is that it literally means “The name of the wind” or “The Wind’s Name” in some language Kvothe and the other students do not know (but is not the wind’s “true name”), and master Elodin was attempting to force the students’ sleeping minds to seek out the wind’s name, unbeknownst, the traditional first task of student namers.I love this. Anyone Imaginary Linguists got any evidence one way or the other? I love it, it just seems such an Elodin thing to do.
While I love the idea of this, I don't think there's any linguistic evidence to support it. We have two words which are associated with the wind: quoyan and aerlevsedi. Neither of these seem to share anything with the above.

I don't want to speculate too deeply, but voistra seems to be a quasi-Latin root word, and the entire phrase practically screams Latin origin (much like Tema/Temic do). I'm making the assumption that this is a Tema/Temic phrase. Of course, we believe that Siaru has borrowed a lot from Tema/Temic, so it could be written in Siaru. All that said, Pat has fallen back on Latin root origins for pronouns before (all of the 'te' type usage for 'you') which leads me to believe that voistra is the second person plural pronoun, just as in Latin, it's vos.

If that is correct, then I have a hard time thinking that the title of the book has anything to do with the wind itself. What intrigues me the most is the word temerant, which is in fact a Latin word, the third person plural of the verb temero, meaning to violate, or contaminate, or dishonor. Maybe it's something like, "About Our Disgrace". That's my best guess.
Ashley Fox
6. A Fox
(My T key is not working unless I ram my finger ino it-which is tiresome-so apologies for the state of this post! Rather oddly I do acually have a cold...)

"Except that there isn’t a connection between Ademic and Siaru, is there?"

There may be. During he adem secion I noted he silmilariy of word/meaning. Later, during/afer the timeline the founding of Ceald stuck out. A nomadic people that seled. Much like he adem. I believe is quie possible hat hese various groups where he Ruarch pos spliing along belief sysems/fear.

It is, of course, worh noing ha hese peoples, were not sudigated by the empire/amyr, still hold beiefs/knowledge of times/peoples pre CW.

"En Temerant Voistra”
Ive ried a hand at interpreting this-and he only vaguely possible answer seems to be a joke.
Temerant-3rd person plural presnt active indicatice (!) of temero (latin). Temero: violate, defile, dishonour, disgrace.
Voistra. Well I stumbled. Though vo istra (in a couple of languages I dont know) oftens means: definition, intrepatation, meaning.

So perhaps it means "For those who are disgracfully interpretating"

Which made me lol even if its wrong!
7. fuzzyillogic
An horrible tought: if by chance Rothfuss is following all these speculations, and by being too clever you're forcing him to costantly rewrite his manuscript to try to be worthy of all our expectations?
Joking... :p
Dave West
8. Jhirrad
@7 - PR has said specifically that he's not following these, because of things like that. He doesn't want to get caught up in what we are saying and speculating, which might cause him to re-think his Awesome World of Awesomeness.
John Graham
9. JohnPoint
Tox @4 -- That's definitely an interpretation that I've been in favor of all along. At the risk of being overly redundant: this is not a simple story of good vs. evil.

If Skarpi's story is accurate, then it effectively says that the Chandrian are evil, and the Amir are good. But that's not how the world works, and it's not how Pat tells stories.

Instead, I expect that the story of Lanre is much more complex -- perhaps along the lines of what Denna wrote. Kvote doesn't know this during the nonframe story, wreaks vengance on them (or tried to etc.), and causes a bunch of problems in the 4C, before finding out that his belief was inaccurate.

That would certainly be something that could cause him to break -- the question then is whether he was hid his true name, renamed himself, or "cracked" (a la Thistlepong's interpretation).

Re the thrice locked chest: my money is on it containing all of his "kvothe" possessions. His lute (which he needs to play in order to "nap out of it" -- whatever "it" is), his shaed, his rings, his candle and key etc. I believe that he locked them all away. From himself, and from "prying" eyes.

Sidenote: Bast and Kvothe speak about the Fae in presnet tense (e.g., Bast says something along the lines of "they don't even share a border with us" when he's talking about the skindancer). So that indicates that, whatever he did do, Kvothe didn't destroy the Fae, or cause the two worlds to merge. I don't remember whether this has been pointed out before, but it's important to remember.
Rob Munnelly
13. RobMRobM
As a personal matter, I've reached the point of diminishing marginal returns of proposing insights into the text of NoTW and WMF but am appreciative of those with the stamina and cunning to keep coming up with new and thoughtful ideas and questions. Bravo to the posters and thanks to Jo for fostering and maintaining this remarkable series of blog posts.
14. Soloce
@Wallace Forman, others re: En Temerant Voistra.

Instead of Latin, if we skip a bit forward, temere means...wait for fear. Further (though I think this is a coincidence), the you/he/she subjenctive is "tema."

Knowing French and Italian, and not having any direct linguistics background, I would translate this as something like, "Fearing Yourself" or "Fearing What Is Yours," or more archaically, possibly "On Your Own Fear." I really tried to think of a way it could be "What Wise Mean Fear," but that would just be too meta-cheeky even for PR!
15. Marián, son of Marián
hi there,

great, that it keeps going, this show of re-reading and is wonderful, thanks Jo, for your time and devotion to this story:)

I was wondering - and it may be a shot to nowhere - whether the sword "Folly" may be the one of Cinder - Ferula? Look, if the description fits... it´s certain, that it´s not Caesure, that´s hanging on the wall...

was it mentioned before? has the idea been brought forward? if yes and it is a nonsense, then I apologise for wasting your time...

but if it could be true, what does it imply? that Kvothe and Cinder met, having a delightful time and then exchanging the swords in soccer-players style after a good match? :D, I think, that if Kvothe wanted to avenge his parents, he had this guy on his mind - Cinder... If the sword Folly belonged to Cinder, does it imply, that he´s dead? we know, that the Chandrian are still intact, as a group... it´s not impossible, that one of them is missing, is it?
Remember, that for Kvothe was the first meeting with the Chandrian in the camp of his parents very important in one thing - he saw how Knowing one´s name - Cinder´s by Haliax - and Speaking it out was used to control him. He even heard his true name... did Kvothe have then a weapon in knowing his name?
and what would be true on what Chronicler said about Kvothe, that people say he became a new Chandrian?
Was the purpose of ordering, mounting and presenting the sword on the wall a sign, that he knows the rest is coming and that he is awaiting them? provoking them with this?
well, just a thought of mine...
16. Marián, son of Marián
one more thing that I noticed - regarding the "Justice in Siaru" page up -

the old woman and teacher of the Adem school is called "Shehyn", not "Sheyen" ...thus it is not giving much sense anymore, if you want to compare it with "Sheyem" in siaru... and even if it would be connected somehow - I don´t see how, I don´t see the importance of the connection in the whole thing...
thistle pong
17. thistlepong
This is how you recognize a reader who heard the name in the English version of the audiobook. The pronunciation is sheyem with an "n" instead of an "m." Presumably those pronunciations are correct, particularly given Pat's comments about spending hours on the phone with Nick Podehl getting them right.

I don't necessarily endorse the "Justice" post, but I tend to think the languages are all interrelated. Kvothe notes the similarity between tempa and temper, linking Aturan and Ademic. Siaru and Faen hvae some similarities; heck, ciar is a Faen word. Tema-Temic-Aturan are pretty much a direct line. This may all be an artifact of it all being borrowed and made up words Pat thought sounded cool, or it may be intentional. Or both.

Thinking about the hints about alchemy lead me, probably inevitably, to alchemical symbolism and thus at alchemical structure. I've been looking at the formal structure of the books, literally "how stories work." I'm not too confident about the specifics yet... world enough and time and such.

However, I'm slowly being pulled into the Cinder camp. So I'm gonna throw out a couple ideas and see if they resonate with anyone. Structurally, Ash should probably be Cinder. Kvothe should come into conflict with Cinder and both should be destroyed or, in Tak terms, removed from the board. We know Kvothe faked his own death, so he's effectively gone. We know there's a rumor of a new Chandrian and folks are coming around to Folly being Cinder's sword. I know there's sparse evidence, which gbrell's articulated. It's something else he wrote that twisted me, though.

What if rhinna and roah have a unique ability to trap? Okay. What if it doesn't have to be a unique ability? But yah, what if the chest is a trap?

I can't help thinking the Seven are immortal and unkillable, either as a result of Selitos's curse or consuming the rhinna flowers. In that case all Kvothe could hope to do is hold Cinder. He suggests to Bast that someone might be in there. Folks assume it might be Denna, but that would be serious dickery, especially for someone he talks about even now with a fond sadness.

What points to Cinder? The story really gets going when he mounts Folly on the roah board: folks come to the inn, Chronicler happens by... Anyway, y'all know I think Selitos is the Cthaeh and how the mountain glass in the Loeclos keeps him in place. So how about the sword on the board firmly and finally holds Cinder in check? Maybe it's even the third lock? Heck, the third lock should even be silver in color, according to the tinker's pennies thing.

The second diversion here is folks, myself included, occasionally speculating a parallel hero's journey for Denna or even that she's the real hero or whatever. In an alchemical structure, that's work out cleanly, hot red Kvothe and cold white Cinder coming together over ash (from her pov) and leaving her... enlightened. Kvothe was right about the Chandrian. Cinder was also right. A new truth revealed. The war is over.

I know, I know, there's a war going on. There's a difference between a Vintish Civil War and the Creation War. I dunno, maybe I'll get my Re'Lar status revoked for that or expelled or whatever...

Oh, and Cinder dying or being removed works for the Cthaeh, too. So there's that.
George Brell
18. gbrell

The idea that Folly is Cinder's sword came up again recently in another thread. I'll repost my argument for why the two swords are not the same.

Cinder's sword is described as:
"His sword was pale and elegant. When it moved, it cut the air with a brittle sound."
"His eyes were like his sword, and neither one reflected the light of the fire or the setting sun."

Folly is described as:
"It shone a dull grey-white in the room's autumn light. It had the appearance of a new sword. It was not notched or rusted. There were no bright scratches skittering along its dull grey side."
"It was slender and graceful. It was deadly as a sharp stone beneath swift water."
"But when the light touched the sword there were no beginnings to be seen. In fact, the light the sword reflected was dull, burnished, and ages old."

So Folly does reflect light, unlike Cinder's eyes and sword. It only reflects dull, burnished, old light. Those words, particularly "burnished" are used repeatedly to describe the ageless blades of the Adem, so I think it more likely that its decribing an Ademic sword rather than Cinder's. The better connection between Folly and Cinder's blade is the use of "elegant" to describe the latter and "slender and graceful" to describe the former, suggesting that they may share a similar shape or underlying identity.
19. mratfink
@5 If the book translates to About Our Disgrace i'd bet it is about the Amyr and the reason no one has heard about it is because it is about the Amyr and like all Amyr books it has gone missing
Dave West
20. Jhirrad
@shalter - Thanks! I've been busy with a lot in my personal life, and so while I've tried to read these, I haven't really had time to post in quite a while. As it was a linguistics issue, I felt compelled to chime in. :)

@19 - I was thinking something similar in terms of a connection to the Amyr. The (potential) name makes me think it's some sort of treatise about the fall of the Amyr, about their disgrace, or dishonor, and someone within the organization has chronicled it.
Dave West
21. Jhirrad
@14 - Even if we move past Latin to French and Italian, it still seems to be second person plural. Vous in French, Vostro in Italian, Vosotros in Spanish. Voistra just rings way too close to that for me to not be connected. Also, I'm just not sold on it being fear. In Italian fear in that sense is paura, and in French, it's peur.
22. Marián, son of Marián
@18 gbrell

thanks for the quoting, I didn´t have my books within my reach...

I must say, that the describing of the Folly doesn´t agree with the describing of Cinders sword... But I still have the feeling, that the sword plays a role here...
let´s say, that the sword is reflecting the personality of the owner... it´s only a theory of course...would it fit then?
since it was explicit written, that the sword was non-reflecting, just like Cinders eyes, here in the Inn, with the new owner is it - just like K - somehow dull and it seems old (older, than it is)...

@17 thistlepong

I like the idea of the interrelation of languages... there were some things, that woke few questions in me, I am going to ask them soon, maybe we get somewhere afterwards...I have read the thread with the linguistic topic and I believe, that a good question might provoke some good answers :) let´s see...have a nice morning/evening in your part of our 4C of the Earth :)
23. Molybdenum
But Cinder's sword has to reflect light, otherwise it would be black. It just didn't reflect the setting sun or firelight specifically. This is similar to Folly, as by the description it does not seem to be reflecting the light in the room. Instead it is reflecting some other light, some ages old light.

So both swords are reflecting light (as any non-black, non-transparent object must), the light they are reflecting just isn't the light in the general area of the sword.
24. Marián, son of Marián
@23 Molybdenum

you´ve put it right, better than me...

plus something else was mentioned when remembering Cinder´s sword... I reckon, that Kvothe said something about a strange silence, that surrounded his sword...
What a coincidence, that we have a silence in the Inn, whose origin is not known yet - or not proven/discovered yet
George Brell
25. gbrell

Yes, technically, all objects reflect light (even black ones). Blackbodies are theoretic constructs.

But this is clearly being used metaphorically. What two objects are being compared? Cinder's eyes (which are black) and his sword (which is "pale").

"Except his eyes. They were black like a goat's but with no iris. His eyes were like his sword, and neither one reflected the light of the fire or the setting sun."

I take the fact that two essentially opposite colored items are both described as being non-reflective to be evidence that neither is glossy. And that they reflect none of the scene's ambient light (in this case, the fire and the sunset).

And that fact makes them the opposite of burnished.

Folly explicitly reflects the ambient light, but in doing so it changes the nature of the light, changing what had been bright, new light into old, dull light. Indeed, the sword is described: " shone with the knowledge that dawn was a small beginning compared to the ending of a season: the ending of a year."

So in one case we have an object that explicitly does not reflect ambient light and in the other one that does. That makes the two different, to me at least. Then again, Folly is described as "grey-white," which is close to "pale."

I do think that Marian is on to something with Cinder's sword's silence, however: "It reminded me of the quiet that settles on the coldest days in winter when it hurts to breathe and everything is still."
Ashley Fox
26. A Fox
GBrell wonderfully illustrates how the words differentiate, but this does not necessariily mean they are not the same sword. The sword could have changed, or been shaped, by it's transition of owners. Much like the sword the Adem give K. Perhaps here there is a deeper change. Thistlepng's alchemic coniderations could be bought to bear here. If the sword as undegone an alchemic process in K's hands (Whom we know now knows Cellum Tincture and presumably has studied other methods than what we have whitnessed at the uni)-the distillation of a sword.

It seems the sword is tied into the silence, as is K and the waystone. Is the sword key? A literal key to the thrice locked chest? Folly and the theories that pertain to the box containing his lute etc, his good qualities would embrace a poignant dichtonomy.

I cant help but feel these elements add to a trap, of and within the Waystone.
Jo Walton
27. bluejo
If the chest is a trap, what is K doing trying to open it at the end of WMF?
Mordicai Knode
28. mordicai
Why can't Caesura be Folly? Changing the hilt & bindings is hardly comperable to changing its Name, which he's already done once.
Justin Levitt
29. TyranAmiros
Re: En Temerant Voistra:

Latin temere basically does mean 'fear', but often has a shade of 'uncertainty' or 'fear of the unknown'. The Indo-European root meant 'blind'. I would translate the phrase as 'In your own uncertainty," or better, "In that which takes your out of your own depth."

This parallels the idea of chasing/searching for the wind, the idea of Naming being found in the wild places and the unconscious mind. Note the relationship to the first few times when Kvothe finds the Name of the wind--times when he, the actor, loses control of the scene.
Mordicai Knode
32. mordicai
Can I also note that it took me WAY too long to figure out that Lady Meluan Lackless is Kvothe's aunt? & that the Lackless Box is probably what is in the thrice-locked chest?
33. Nameless
... he tells Bast that he “picked the time and place for the scrael rather carefully”
This implies that there are times at which K dares to be Kvothe, but tries to hide himself the remaining time. Maybe it is significant that the scrael fight is in a moonless night. He is hiding from a power that is sided with the moon. Presumably this power assumes he is dead.Whether this power is sided with the Chandrian or is hunting them is unclear, but it seems that a wise men fears its absence.

Regarding K's state, I side with those who are reminded of the alar training game that is described in NotW. One part of K's mind has hidden things like info on who to unlock the chest or who to fight. Only when his weakend alar breakes in moments of danger or anger this knowleadge bubbles to the surface. When K had to keep up his defence against Ambross, we already saw how straining longterm alar usage can be. In the frame K. had to keep up his role probably for years and it starts to fail him. Bast is trying to accelerate this process either out of ignorance or because of his hidden agenda.
Steven Halter
34. stevenhalter
Just at the Rothfuss reading. They, shall we say, underestimated the crowd size. Pat found a slightly larger room in which it was just possible for everyone to fit (breathing in alternate sequence). No estimate on D3 yet. He learned his estimation ability is suspect with WMF.
Good time.
35. MNfan
@#34- Shalter, could you possible give as a summary of the reading you attended? Thanks.
Steven Halter
36. stevenhalter
@35:With the room change, he only had about 20 minutes, so he did the Guinea Pig story. If you google Rothfuss Guinea Pig you should be able to find that. He did tempt us with a secret story, but then went for humor. I got a very brief chance to thank him for the books and tell him to go ahead and take his time with D3. He seems to appreciate people telling him to go st the pace he wants rather than as quick as possible. :-)
He also read a couple of short poems. He commented that he likes meter and rhyme rather than the new styles.
Steven Halter
37. stevenhalter
Just so I don't give the impression that everything at Worldcon is rushed, I did get to chat with Charlie Stross and Walter Jon Williams last night for about 3 hours.
Hello There
39. praxisproces
thistle pong
41. thistlepong
Wow, and congrats to Pat's editor, Betsy Wollheim.
Jeremy Raiz
42. Jezdynamite
Congratulations Jo. What amazing news!!! You must be over the moon.
Jo Walton
43. bluejo
Thanks everyone.

It was still here when I woke up this morning, so I think we can be sure it wasn't a dream.

And yes, I was delighted to see Betsy Wollheim win. WMF was quite high on the nominations list too.
Sahi Rioth
44. Sahirioth
Grats, Jo! And Betsy got what was coming to her, too =). Too often the editors do not get the attention they deserve (like how directors tend to get credited for films, but the names of the screenplaywriters seldom get famous). This is why I have a "ritual", sort of, that I think should be mandatory: whenever reading a book, I always read the "thanks to..." part, since if it turns out to be a good novel, I feel I owe it to whoever helped it become such a good novel.
Steven Halter
46. stevenhalter
Jo@43:If it was a dream then we must be moving into Fae as I saw you get it. That was a great amount of fun. Good acceptence speach.
I was also pleased by Betsy Wollheim winning. From the bits PR has posted, it seems pretty clear she both enabled him to write the book as he wished and helped him to realize that vision that we have been having so much fun with here.
John Graham
47. JohnPoint
First -- Congratulations Jo!!! Woo hoo!

Second: re En Temerant Voistra and @14: I definitely would not put it past Pat to name his own book -- in many ways, it seems right up his alley/humor to include it in the text, particularly in the context of Elodin's comment along the lines of "this ond (e.g., the Wise Man's Fear)... I don't even know if it's in there" or whatever his specific quote is. Particularly if Pat threw that in there at a moment when he was overwhelmed by the amount of work he had to do to finish it.

I know we don't have the linguistic connection, but...
Alex L
48. Quercus
For the "voistra" part of En Temerant Voistra:

If we're looking to the romance languages, how about French "voir", to see? Je vois, tu vois, etc. So "voistra" could be another way of saying "see-er", or figuratively "wise man".

A slight stretch, I know...!
thistle pong
49. thistlepong
Double Post
thistle pong
50. thistlepong

A lot if that was coffee talking through a morass of recent reading. It's a puzzle piece that doesn't quite fit and an idea I can't support fully. On the other hand, as a community we're of the opinion that Newarre is in eastern Vintas. Eastern Vintas is a terrible place to hide from a Vintic bounty. We have no idea why he's trying to open the chest in any case.
51. KCC4291
On the subject of K's state in the frame...

Firstly, the idea that part of his name is in the thrice-locked chest. I always took the part of the Jax story where he locks the moon's name to be embellishment for the sake of the story. A name reflects the total understanding of something. Or more accurately, a name IS the total understanding of something. You can't trap your understanding of something in a box. I don't think it would be possible even in this world where a thing's name lets you manipulate said thing.

What I think is more likely is that Iax shaped the moon's name, changing it and therefore the moon's very nature. I don't quite know how this could be done, except to say that it might have to do with the magic Denna is so interested in: that of writing something to make it true. That magic could be how shaping is done; you write something that must be/come true about a person or thing by using its name, and thus change the thing's nature and name. (This could bring an interesting twist and a reason for a fallout between Denna and Kvothe. She, knowingly or not, becomes a Shaper and Kvothe's Knower (assuming he is one) responsibilities make him stop her) This could be said to be "trapping" a part of the name, because Iax could be seen as "trapping" part of the moon's nature to his will, pinning it down so it can no longer change with the owners will.

What does this have to do with K's state in the frame? For starters, it means I don't think it's part of his name in the chest, nor do I think that a name change is required or makes sense for his problems. If the above is even a little bit correct and Shaping is required for a name change, and Shaping is Bad, it seems unlikely he would do it to himself, nor does it seem likely he would let someone do it, then somehow be strong enough to get the chest. A change in his nature would mean that he is completely unable to competently do the Ketan, not sporadically switch between master and incompetent novice.

I think his problems are not physical, but psychological. Basically, I think he has performance anxiety. I think he tried to use his abilities once for something big, like saving someone's life, and failed. Now he questions everything and his confidence is shot, but he can still do it when no one's around or when he doesn't have time to think about it.

An obvious example would be if a man has trouble...performing...for his significant other. He then gets anxious, worries over it, fears it will happen again. That fear causes the very thing he's afraid of, and he starts to avoid situations in which he'll be required to perform, like going to a town where no one knows your name and nothing is expected of you.

Anyway, that all ended up a lot longer than I was expecting. I apologize for any rambling, inappropriate metaphors.
thistle pong
52. thistlepong
Pat called Hepse's "The Boy Who Loved the Moon" an "abridged, abbreviated, low-brow version told around the campfire," on the ComicsOnline podcast (01-04-12.) So, you might be right about embellishment. He also said he and Nate Taylor were pitching the full version to Dark Horse as a graphic novel. Here's hoping.

Conflating Jax and Iax might be a mistake, even without the above. All we have to go on is a false cognate between a campfire story and a name mentioned once in a tavern tale. Might be exaclty what we're looking for. Might not. It screams red herring to me.

I think we're meant to connect Elodin's panic over the notion of changing one's name with Kvothe's current state and the story of Lanre. Whether his name change is nominal or noetic is still up in the air, though.
53. Nameless
Just reread the Tehlu discussion in Part 11 of the reread that focused on Teh meaning 'lock'.
Has anybody considered the parallel of Teh+lu to Lock+less ?

Actually Tehlu became famous for trapping the evil that was haunting the world by binding him to a wheel and throwing him in fiery pit. This may or may not be a colorfull description of what the original Lockless did.

It puzzeled me anyway that whatever mighty Lockless did, was forgotten by menkind. This would be totally explained, if we encounter him troughout the story by his untranslated name as Tehlu.
Mordicai Knode
54. mordicai
Oh, man, I think it is DEFINITELY the Moon's name in the box, yeah!

Also, if the Moon's name is in the box, & the Moon represents the bridge between our world & Faerie, I think we can speculate two forces: one opposed to the connection of the worlds, who seek to shatter it, & one in favor of integration between the worlds.

So who would that be? Chandrian & the Amyr? & which is which?
Steven Halter
55. stevenhalter
Nameless@53:Yes, we've looked at the various combinations that Tehlu could be:
Teh + lu -- lock less, lock first, lock moon, and probably others I am not remebering.
Steven Halter
56. stevenhalter
mordicai@54:Does this mean you are caught up in finishing the two books?
At least part of the name of the moon being in the box is a popular theory. Of course, the whole Jax story may be more allegorical than literal.
I suspect there are rather more than just two forces at work.
Mordicai Knode
57. mordicai
56. shalter

Yep! I read 'em. Is there anything apocraphyl that I should read?

Anyhow, yeah, I'm sure the story is allegorical; it obviously isn't literal. How much truth there might be peppered in it...well. Anyhow, I think the Name of the Moon & the connection between the worlds has got to be at the crux of things.

I mean, the Chandrian clearly have an agenda, whatever it might be. Right?
Steven Halter
58. stevenhalter
@57:Well, reading through all of Jo's posts and all the comments is always useful :-)
But, in the meantime, yeah there are a lot of agendas out there. The Chandrian have one. Haliax in particular seems to have something in mind.
The Amyr (who/whatever they are) have the "Greatest Good" thing going on.
The Fae probably have a number of competing agendas.
The Tinkers have an agenda.
The various human political rulers have agendas.
The Cthaeh has an agenda.
The Masters at the University have agendas--probably both mundane and more interesting.
Kvothe wants to find out who killed his parents and what he can do about it.
Denna almost certainly has an agenda beyond writing some songs.

The Creation War and its various causes and effects, movers and shakers, does seem to be the crux of everything.
Exactly what that crux is can be a myriad of things at this point, and that is what is beautiful.
thistle pong
59. thistlepong
Tor (yep, this here) just reported via Locus that Pat just sold another trilogy to DAW. I can link without my posts getting eaten. If we're picking sides, I'm saying it's not about Kvothe.
Steven Halter
60. stevenhalter
thistlepong@59:That's my guess. Maybe still in the 4C, but probably not about Kvothe.
61. Ilyena
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but I noticed a similarity between how Kvothe is described when he named Felurian and how the angels are described in Skarpi's story.

The angels are described as such: " settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold."

Kvothe, when looking at his reflection in Felurian's eyes, says: "My power rode like a white star on my brow."

What has anyone to say of this? I know Kvothe seems a lot like what little we know of the Amyr, but the description was of angels so I'm not entirely sure what to think.
thistle pong
62. thistlepong
I believe it's been pointed out. Always made me wonder if that scene with the ruach took place in Faen.
George Brell
63. gbrell

To expand on what thistlepong said, here's a previous post in response to essentially your question with two links to the older re-read sections discussing the issue.
thistle pong
64. thistlepong

Isn't "one lock" most likely, with "first lock" perhaps second if we're reaching? In the timeline thread thesissy confirmed the theory that the first seven days were numbers
Steven Halter
65. stevenhalter
thistlepong@64:Yes, those are my preferred meanings.
George Brell
66. gbrell

That was why my first question to Rothfuss in the "Admissions" thread was about the etymology of Luten.

1) "Lu" appears to be a shared root of "Luten" (the first day of the span) and "Ludis" (the name of the moon in Hespe's story). Considering that days two through seven in the span appear to be named based on their numerical order (e.g., Caenin/Chaen is the seventh day and shares the root Chaen - "seven" - with Chandrian), does "lu" represent "one"? Or is the etymology of "Luten" similar to the etymology of Monday in English from "moon day" and thus "lu" represents "moon"? Or is it some combination of the two? Is "lu" in "Tehlu" the same root?

Unfortunately, he didn't answer it.

I think that both "one lock"/"first lock" and "moon lock" are possible based on whether you think the days originated from the numbers or the numbers originated from the days.

Or we could go another level of recursion. The Germanic names for the week's days are descendants of 's Day (Odin to Wednesday, Thor to Thursday). These were apparently renamings of the Roman deity-named weekdays (note that Saturday is the artifact being Saturn's Day). We know that the Aturan Empire is a Holy Roman Empire analogue. So what if the weekdays are named after the original "gods"?

Numerous cultures have a Moon Day. What if Caenin/Chaen doesn't share a root with Chandrian, but is a descendant of Chandrian's Day. This could also fit with a theory I've seen that discusses how the Tehlins added four extra days to the Span (Felling, Reaving, Cendling, Mourning). You have a pagan week spanning seven days (Moon's Day, Sun's Day, Theden = Tehlu's Day, Ordal's Day = Orden, etc.) that is coopted by the Tehlins as the week and also as the numbering system (so Chandrian shares a root because they were the origin of the number seven).
thistle pong
67. thistlepong

I don't see any of your posts in the thread, so maybe you missed it? The Dutch translator essentially confirms the numeric days plus Aturan/Tehlin associations for the final four of the span. I suppose that doesn't necessarily dismiss other interpretations, but it does provided definite etymology.

And we're still just putting Temic? and sygaldry runes together and celebrating our ingenuity. It doesn't explain Laurian's ignorance of chaen, which should have been common knowledge at least in terms of the day of the span. I suppose it should also be "lock" "one" translated word for word.
Steven Halter
68. stevenhalter
gbrell@66:Yes, an answer would have been nice--although a non-answer may mean that we are on to something (or that Pat had a bad bite of burrito just before answering).

Hopefully D3 will give us some resolutions to some of these or Pat may be more forthcoming after D3.
69. coyote_blue
@bluejo, OP: I stand duly corrected on Elodin-as-schemer; I agree with your counter-point. That said, it still begs the question of what Elodin is doing when he asks the question in NOTW that he could only pull out of Kvothe's head. The Occam's Razor answer is that that is exactly what he's doing, and that more significance should be given to all the examples of people "pulling names out of the air".

I also retain the right to guess that "seven words magic" is at least one example of using words to make things true - whether that's shaping or not...well.

@Sheyhn pronounced "Sheyem" - Japanese has a letter that is both M and N simultaneously, because you keep your mouth closed when you utter it. (A clear N sound requires your teeth to be together, but your lips to be open.) I have no idea if that's significant to our pale Zen samurai people.

gbrell @18: The description of Folly makes me think it's a blunt sword, and that the blade metal is a window - as if the light that comes out is not the same as the light that goes in. That description makes me think of other blade stories - Pullman's "Subtle Knife", that cuts the world instead of people; Murasame, the blade that weeps clear water when drawn; that corny line in Kill Bill when Sonny Chiba praises a blade so sharp that "When this blade shall face the Lord God, even the Lord God shall be cut!"

That's a stretch, yeah. But that's the problem with poetical descriptions, innit?
George Brell
70. gbrell

I think I checked out of that thread after the initial twenty or thirty comments (pre-translator forum discussion). Didn't comment because I thought your work stood on its own. After reading what I missed, I have a comment on the passage below:

Again, notes from the translator's forum. The first seven days are numbers - day nr 7 is Chaen, hence Chandrian Felling, Reaving, Cendling, and Mourning all have rough English translations or at least strong associations. These have religious significance tied to the Tehlin religion, and to the observant reader, this is revealed in the story told by Skarpi.

Except the tale was told by Trapis, not Skarpi.

What I would like to know is whether the translators are instructed to leave the names of the days alone or if they translate them to fit the numbering. If so, do they also translate Chandrian or leave it alone?

I would also like to know about the Chaen vs. Caenin distinction (which could possibly explain away Laurian's ignorance of Chandrian).
thistle pong
71. thistlepong
To the best of my knowledge, the days are the same in German, French, Swedish, and Dutch with variation in the last four to convey meaning. I've never seen a variant for Chandrian: Spanish, Catalan, Brazilian Portugese, and Polish in addition to the above.
Sahi Rioth
72. Sahirioth
Regarding the pronunciation of "Shehyn":

What's the source for the name being pronounced as "Sheyem"? The audiobook? And, if so, is it with an almost inaudible second 'e' (making it sound like "Shane" or "shame"), or really as 'sheh-yem'. Because the latter, to me, seems odd; consider that the pronounciation of all other names in the series (so far) seem to fit either with how a speaker of English would pronounce them, or a speaker of another Germanic or Romance language would. ('Kvothe' being an example of an English way to pronounce it, and Saicere ('sigh-sair' if English pr.) being e.g. French/Portuguese.)

I always assumed (not having an audiobook but the ordinary text) that Shehyn was pronounced as "SHEH-hün" (that umlauted 'u' sounding like a German one, or a French 'u' in words like 'une', or a Swedish/Danish 'y').
thistle pong
73. thistlepong

That would be me. Or the audiobook itself, I suppose. I tend to check when folks bring up specific pronunciation questions.*

sh? ?n SHAY ehn

sh? ?m SHAY ehm

The Adem have kind of a Dutch accent.

*most of the time it's just a public service
...he's said in several interviews that there are correct pronunciations, but he appreciates the arguments over them 'cause it reminds him of the Raistlin debates of his geeky youth...
Edit: can't link, can't use special characters... (first syllable hard a, second syllable schwa)
74. Mathmonk
Consider the following possible storyline:

The Jakis family is plotting to acquire the throne of Vint. In order to do so they must kill all the successors before them including the current king, the Maer, and the Lackless heirs including Meluan. They were behind Caudicus’s attempt on the Maer’s life, but Kvothe foiled that in WMF.

One of Ambrose’s plots succeeds and he successfully gets Kvothe expelled from the university. This probably will incorporate the stone door in the archives. Auri will be significantly affected by the events surrounding this, and it’s possible that Kvothe loses her, and this is where the dark part of Kvothe’s story begins to show.

Due to the efforts of Stapes, Kvothe’s heritage becomes known to the Maer and Meluan Lackless and they reconcile with Kvothe, and Kvothe will work out the significance of the Lackless Box. This will also give Kvothe the resources he needs to investigate the Chandrian and the Amyr in earnest. He is able to contact the Amyr, most likely through Dagon or Master Lorren.

The wheels begin to turn on the Jakis plot to kill the King, the Maer, Lady Lackless, and probably a few other successors. Kvothe is unknowingly manipulated and tricked by Ambrose, using Kvothe’s hatred for Ambrose against him. Kvothe’s actions end up furthering the assassination plots, unwittingly and foolishly assisting Ambrose. The significance of copper and its effect on naming will be revealed.

Denna’s song gets her on the Chandrian’s bad side, but her patron is either an Amyr or at least affiliated with them (he wouldn’t be a Chandrian himself because they wouldn’t want her to write a song about them, we know they don’t like that). So they capture her, and Kvothe finds out she’s with them and rushes off to save her.

Kvothe is assisted by the Amyr and locates Denna, he tricks one of the Chandrian and is successful in rescuing Denna from them. However, the Amyr, and probably one of the original Amyr with wings of fire (the angel) insists on keeping Denna for a reason we don’t know yet, but it is for the “Greater good”. Kvothe finds this unacceptable and fights the Amyr, and through a feat of naming kills him/her in order to save Denna. But in the aftermath, he loses Denna anyway (whether by death or another way).

When Kvothe returns to Severen, he finds that the assassination plot has been carried out, and Ambrose has used sympathy in the execution of it. The Maer survives because he was wearing the gram that Kvothe made, but Lady Lackless, the King, and others (one of them a poet perhaps), are killed. Kvothe’s unexplained absence combined with his previous actions, and some excellent framing by Ambrose leads the Maer and the community to believe that he is responsible for the assassinations. Kvothe sees this as a betrayal on the Maer’s part. The Maer regrets trusting Kvothe, and sees him as responsible for his wife’s death making him the penitent king. Kvothe daringly escapes Severen, but this only confirms to others that he is guilty, and the Maer puts a price on his head. Kvothe realizes that he was manipulated and considers himself responsible for the death of the king even though he didn’t do it himself. Because of his foolishness, he feels justified in saying that he earned the name “Kingkiller”.

The Amyr angel that Kvothe killed was serving the important function of guarding a border to and from the Fae world, probably west of the Stormwall mountains. Kvothe returns to the Fae (after significant difficulty in finding out how to get there again) in order to keep the “Demons” out of the mortal world. Kvothe is only partially successful in this, but he befriends Bast along the way, and is at least able to slow the “Demons’” progress. Somewhere at this point in the story Kvothe suffers some kind of physical and/or emotional trauma caused by loss and constant failure (this will likely involve music), and loses the ability to focus his Alar, and perform feats of naming. He also stops practicing the Katan, perhaps due to injury.

Upon his return to the mortal world Kvothe finds that there is a war going on between King (formerly Maer) Alveron and the Jackis family, who has allied themselves with another nation through the marriage of Ambrose to their princess. The Jakis family claims that Kvothe was working for the Alveron to assassinate the king, and that Lady Lackless was collateral damage, and therefore Alveron should not be king, and Ambrose, being next in line should be king. Alveron claims that the Jakis family was behind the assassinations, and that Kvothe was working for them, noting that Kvothe and Ambrose were students at the University together, and that the feud between the two was merely manufactured to avoid suspicion.
At this point, having failed in all his endeavors, and haunted by the loss of those he cared about, Kvothe takes on the name “Kote” meaning disaster. He and Bast go into hiding and buy the Waystone Inn. Which is where the tale begins.

This obviously doesn’t cover everything that will need to happen and it is highly speculative, but I think we’ll see some elements of these themes in B3, though probably not in this order. I’d love some feedback on these speculations, or in modifications to include other foreshadowing elements.
George Brell
75. gbrell

You can get links in your post if you follow the following steps:
1. Paste the link (it should appear as light blue).
2. Right click and select unlink (it'll turn black).
3. Delete the "http" lead in and the pair of forward slashes, leaving you with:
76. Marián, son of Marián

an interesting theory, though I can´t agree with all of it...due to lack of time - am at work right now - I am reacting only regarding the following thought of yours - "Denna’s song gets her on the Chandrian’s bad side, but her patron is either an Amyr or at least affiliated with them (he wouldn’t be a Chandrian himself because they wouldn’t want her to write a song about them, we know they don’t like that)"

I wouldn´t say, that they don´t like songs at all...they said precisely, that Kvothe´s parents were singing the WRONG sort of songs...
that doesn´t imply, that they don´t like songs at all, or better said, that they don´t like songs about THEM at all...

It rather confirms the theory, that they want to create some song of their own, with their agenda in it..
is Denna´s patron Cinder - Master Ash?
77. Chizzle1890
Has anyone else noticed parrelels between the Wheel of Time series and the king kill chronicles?
The most notable one being the relationships of adem-edema ruh (Speculation) and the aiel-tinkers.
In the WOT (and as speculated in the kingkiller chronicles) the two groups are splinters of a relatively recent ancestor and have polar beliefs. These opposite philosophies manifest itself in WOT: beliefs about fighting and - the kingkiller chronicles: beliefs about music.
Not sure about any of this but if the WOT influenced Rothfuss' writing than this might be a clue to the true nature of the adem/edema ruh
Ashley Fox
78. A Fox
It has been noted, and mentioned to Pat-who stated that he has not read the series beyound the first book a long time ago. (in one of his blogs and in an interview I believe). Make of that what you will.
79. grillo
wow, i just stumbled into this re-read and went through it all in a couple of days, amazing read and contributions from everybody.

this is my first comment and the only thing i can offer is my dusty high school latin , so regarding "En Temerant Voistra"

if 'voistra' is indeed 'vostra' it could stand for 'your things'. literally it is 'your', but lacking the noun it refers to in this case latin assumes that noun to be 'res', things.

so going with the meaning of 'temero' as violate or dishonor it could be 'on the digracing of all your things' which is quite a weird title, even though quite evocative.

But the verb is conjugated in the plural third person, so i don't think i can correctly twist temerant in the sentence from a verb to a subject, so i'd have to again assume an unnamed 'they' as a subject to it, and this way i get
"about them dishonoring all your things"

but it doesn't make a lot of sense uh? my teacher would probably award me a C for the literal translation being formally and grammatically correct, but not quite there regarding the meaning. or it's just not really latin.
Gordon Chow
80. shalaran
"All the truth in the world is held in stories, you know." ~ Elxa Dal pg. 349. WMF

I was rereading everything when I just realized the significance of that line and how much foreshadowing Patrick Rothfuss puts into his books and I suspect the mini stories within. I'm amazed at how much depth has been gleamed by everyone on this forum when I decided to look up my suspicion. I believe even the story Elxa Dal told Kvothe at the White Hart of "The Ignorant Edema" hints at this and also to the part of the story Kvothe fast forwarded through of his ship being sunk and barely making it Vintas alive. Though I am curious to when the third book comes out, since everything everywhere seems to be totally speculative.
Steven Halter
81. stevenhalter
shalaran@80:No word on when D3 will be out. Pat is writing at his own pace and won't provide any estimate as he learned he is really bad at estimates. :-)
Wallace Forman
83. WallaceForman
Re: Master Ash and Cinder

I strongly support this theory. We expect that Cinder was at the Mauthen Farm, and we know that Denna was as well. What was she doing there? Master Ash quizzes her on the information she could give about the guests at the party, their descriptions, and their number. Denna knows the exact number: 26 people.

Only after Master Ash collects this information, while Denna is away from the farm, do the Chandrian attack. The Chandrian had wanted to make sure that they killed everyone attending the wedding and who had thus seen the artifact. Once they had information from Denna, they could know exactly how many people they had to kill.

The other evidence - the naming of ash, the Cthaeh, Denna's Lanre song, is also quite good. Really the strongest evidence against the theory is that the Bredon theory is fairly strong too! So what we really need is some sort of convincing synthesis of the two theories, and I have not seen one yet.
Wallace Forman
84. WallaceForman
Re: En Temerant Voistra

There's no real support for my translation theory in Latin, but I think that Rothfuss makes only an indifferent use of Latinate etymology in his languages. Most words are not Latinate in form. Note the Imaginary Linguistics page:

Here are my notes on possible uses of Latin etymology in words in the compendium that are Latinate and have suggested translations (my reviews in bold after relevant entries)

Tu : LanguageSiaru - NW Chapter 32You - NW Chapter 32 Tua : LanguageSiaru - NW Chapter 32Your - NW Chapter 32 (tu and tua for the second person singular is Latinate)

Ludis: LanguageUnknown -- WMF chapter 88the name of the Moon (similar to "luna" moon)

Aeruh - NW Chapter 26Possible translation: Air - "Aeruh, I command the air." - NW Chapter 26 (similar to aer, Latin for air)

Ivare Enim Euge: LanguageTema NW Chapter 38 - Motto of the AmyrFor the Greater Good - NW Chapter 38: Translated by Master Archivist Lorren (this is quite a mixed bag. Ivare is like "iuvare" meaning "to aid" which is similar to "good" but not to the preposition "for". Enim means "therefore" and euge means "Woah!" or something like that. So one of these words conceivably is similar to what a word in the phrase should mean, but not the word in the relevant position.)

Vecarum: LanguageSiaru - WMF Chapter 37judiciary powers (vicarius is priest, and since the Aturan empire was founded on a religion, this etymology may be intentional)

leviriet: LanguageSiaru -- WMF Chapter 18sunny (no etymological connection - Latin translation might be "strong" or "lift" or "polish")

Embrula: LanguageUnknown possibly LanguageSiaru -- WMF chapter 38Fae women (looks quite latinate but has no real Latin translation)

Gatessor: LanguageSiaru -- WMF chapter 23loaner, possible translation (looks Latinate, but no obvious translation)

It's a pretty mixed bag
The Latin for wind is ventus; Latin for name is nomen. Temerant sounds a bit like "tremulus," "turbulent," and also temerious, all Latinate. How about temperamental? Another possible translation of "En Temerant Voistra" might be "the ever-changing wind." Less self-referential, but still clever.

As someone above notes, temerant is a bit like, "Tema" which is related to an older language Temic. Perhaps the root word for these languages has something to do with names?
The real reason I suspect that "En Temerant Voistra" means "the name of the wind" is just that it would make for good dramatic irony.

1) The traditional first task of Namers is discovering the name of the wind. Finding these books is the first task Master Elodin gives his student namers.

2) Elodin tells the students that he is not sure "En Temerant Voistra" is in the library. None of the students find a book of that title.

3) Later we learn that most students find that they have to "chase the wind." They cannot find the name of the wind at the university.

4) However, Kvothe later does find the name of the wind in the library. (It was there after all?) He can't call it there safely though.

5) Self referential! Having the students look for a book called the name of the wind in a book called "Name of the Wind."
thistle pong
85. thistlepong
New(ish) interview:

I don't think there's anything especially novel in there compared to other interviews. It seems to both reaffirm that this story (if not Kvothe's entire story) is a tragedy and that there's no existential war or threat at work. I could swear this is the first time he's said in print that the books are meant to be read and reread for details. That's comforting for us treasure hunters.

(topic change)

A poster in one of the earlier thread linked to It seems to be getting better. After looking through some of the edit history I discovered that JezDynamite has exerted a civilizing influence on it by carrying some of our work to the masses. Can we call him our Viari, Jo?

(and thanks to grbrell for the linking advice)
Andrew Mason
86. AnotherAndrew
By the way, if En Temerant Voistra does mean 'The Name of the Wind', this would be a nice Gene Wolfe parallelism.
Mordicai Knode
87. mordicai
86. AnotherAndrew

You can't go wrong looking for Gene Wolfe parallels, not in my book.
Steven Halter
88. stevenhalter
En Temerant Voistra: En -- probably in
Temerant -- there are a lot of temera conjugations and offshoots in all of the romance languages. Many revolve around random or unworthy
Voistra -- If we split that into Vois tra, then from French we get vois = see and tra = work. tra = between in Italian
So, if you tilt your head just right you could get things like "see through the randomness", "Your work is unworthy", " "Don't believe what you see", or a number of things.
Jeremy Raiz
89. Jezdynamite
85. thistlepong

Thanks for the nice comparison, but if I'm Viari (hahaha), you're the immortal Head of the "Acquisitions" Department for all your contributions to all 8 (read it here, 8!!!) of the 400 post long Wise Man's Fears threads on the asoiaf site.
thistle pong
90. thistlepong
“Well…not the music. Don’t ask about that, or why he doesn’t do magic anymore.”
In general we've assumed that Kvothe can't do magic anymore. We cite Kvothe vs Shambleman at the end of NW as evidence. We point to the parallelism between his Alar and ramston steel. We suspect it was shattered.

On the other hand he implies he can break Chronicler's binding of iron, he stops the inhumanly strong Bast with one hand, and there's clearly something happening with the bottle of strawberry wine.

And that quote implies, however loosely, that he chooses not to do magic. We know he chooses not to sing rather than being unable to. We suspect he might be unable to play the lute due to a possible hand injury, but there isn't even a show of trying, yet.

Anyway, is there much support for Kvothe laying down his tools voluntarily or is it technically wilder speculation that the Selitos/Cthaeh thing?
91. DB3006
I am somewhat late in the discussion, but I will jump in the apple cart nonetheless...
I believe K is the eighth figure figure in Nina's drawing. In NotW, according to Cronicler "They were the same dark eyes...Eyes like an angry God's.". K's powers are strongest either when afraid or angry. In WMF, Nina said "He looked so angry. He looked like he was ready to burn down the whole world."
Auri tells him "you look like an Amyr...Kvothe is one of the Ciridae."
Wallace Forman
92. WallaceForman
One more run at "En Temerant Voistra."

Over the doors of the archives are inscribed the words: "Vorfelan Rhinata Morie." Wil translates this casually as "The desire for knowledge shapes a man." Some commenters have suggested previously that Wil may be somehow crucially mistranslating the phrase. There has also been debate as to which word means what. Note that the three word translation is rendered to mean four separate important words (desire, knowledge, shapes, man). Is "desire for knowledge" rendered by one word, so that perhaps "curiosity" is a better translation? Is the word "man" even in the original, or has Wil just added it to create an idiomatic translation? (Perhaps the original is a passive, null-subject construction, e.g. is shaped by desire for knowledge.) Anything is possible, really, but suppose for now that "Morie" is the "shape" word.

In WMF, a song called "En Faeant Morie" is played at the Eolian. I propose that it is a folk story about "The Shaping of the Fae." This is a real event in the world's history and a legitimate subject for a song (though not one Kvothe would regard as based in truth at the point in the narrative when the song is played).

Translating "En Faeant Morie" as "The Shaping of the Fae" is consistent with translating "En Temerant Voistra" as "The Name of the Wind" in two ways. First, it retains the use of "En" as an article. Second, it retains the use of "ant" as a possible genetive case ending (used to show possession). Under this interpretation, "Temerant" could mean "of the wind" (with temer being a possible root form for "wind") and voistra would mean "name."

Anyhow there are any number of ways this could all be wrong, but it seems at least somewhat plausible.
93. DB3006
Does anyone have a guess about the name Moreth? Deanna talks in her sleep during the draccus adventure.
Jeremy Raiz
94. Jezdynamite

Moteth is only mentioned once over the 2 books. Arwyl (from the asoiaf site) writes what I am thinking (I've shortened Arwyl's text a bit for clarity):

"...when Kvothe wakes her up after seeing that the draccus was going to Trebon, she mutters the word "Moteth". Her earlier drugged-related ramblings were ... words that made sense ... so I'm wondering if this Moteth was a person, maybe her patron? ......But then it could also be some simple word like "Mother", uttered in muffled way since she ..." was just temporarily woken up and in a drugged daze.
95. Herelle
Hey, I totally missed the last few blog posts. I thought it was over until D3. I´m happy to have been wrong. Now I started reading the posts as well as the comments, which I haven´t finished yet. But, I had a thought I´m sure I will forget if I had to read every comment before sharing it, so here it is:
There was so much speculation about the moon and where it is when it is not in the 4C sky. As far as I´ve seen we have only been considering the monthly moon phases. What about daytime though, or better parts of the day where the moon is not in the sky. The moon traveling between 4C and Fae daily would just open up so many more possibilities, don´t you think?
96. Marco.
I vote that Kvothe was cursed, much in the way the 7 were. In the beginning of the day 2 frame story, there's a line about Kvothe having given up hope of sleep - at first this feels like a throwaway line about tossing and turning in bed, but upon reread this feels like what Halihax is going through.
97. DB3006
.90 thistlepong
I think along the same lines. K took out the Scrael without difficulty. I haven't made any assertions about the music. There must be a reason for telling the story in three days.
Brandon Lammers
98. wickedkinetic
Alright, been away a while (not in Fae, regrettably) but had these few silly thoughts while catching up

-K's father can be both Faen (or part-Faen) and also Arlinden. We know very little of the Bards' bloodline, only that he and K share serious musical talent and they had a positive relationship, do we have any reason to believe K's Dad was 100% mundane/ common/Ruh-born/nothing special about this guy please move on? maybe there's more to know on both sides of his family tree....

- along the same lines, D could be part-Faen. also (this is a lark) perhaps there is a CTH counter-part and D is its agent while K is CTH's agent....

- did the Lute case save K from drowning/shipwreck? how significant that it came from D?

- is Elodin = Taborlin?

on Copper:

- Copper is highly conductive (as is silver (werewolves), and gold) - perhaps in 4C it is highly conductive of 'magic' - working as a drain or 'sink' and un-shapeable due to its absorption or conduction properties? - plus it also has magnetic properties (i.e. Faraday Cage) related to its electrical properties...

A Faraday cage is a copper net that makes something electro-magnetically invisible I think - cancels its magnetic properties in some way? I've seen it used frequently in Stross's Laundry books, also in Gibson's latest stuff a guy keeps his cell phone in a copper-net-pouch around his neck so he can't be GPS-tracked because he's a paranoid drug-addled loon with special powers or something.....
Steven Halter
99. stevenhalter
wickedkinetic@98:A Faraday cage can be made from any conductive material although a better conductor makes for a better cage. Basically, it blocks electromagnetic signals from entering (or leaving).
Silver is more conductive than copper and gold is next.
John Graham
100. JohnPoint
wikedkinetic @98 : we can speculate that either Naming or Sympathy (or possibly both) involve EM radiation in one way or another. Perhaps having an Alar is really about being able to "broadcast" EM from your brain onto the item that you're performing sympathy on.

The copper mesh in the Rookery certainly seemed like a Faraday cage to me -- it was able to block out any EM signals from the environment (hence, the "hush" that Kvothe noticed in the building), and would consequently block any EM signals from the Sympathist/Namer who is a resident thereof.

It certainly makes sense that Sympathy and/or Naming would be relate to the ability to project "brainwaves" (essentially, just EM radiation of one type) on the environment. Seems logical, and is somewhat connected to the laws of physics in our world, which Pat like to mirror.

This also corresponds with the other rules of Sympathy. E.g., the distance of irreversible decay (or whatever it's called) for a sympathetic link. Wven with a very powerful brain, one could only "broadcast" their brainwaves for a certain distance. The other rules seem to match nicely, too.
John Graham
101. JohnPoint
Double post: deleted.
102. DB3006
In TNW Auri gives K a key that unlocks the moon. She also gives him a wooden ring to keep his secrets. Does anyone have a theory?
George Brell
103. gbrell

It could be bunnies.


Auri gives Kvothe a variety of tools including key, coin and candle, the three items that Taborlin has stripped from him in the opening tale. Whether they are more than that ... there has been some conjecture, but I don't remember anything concrete.
Sahi Rioth
104. Sahirioth
Sort of unrelated, but still... Can someone with an audiobook please tell me how Chronicler's family name is pronounced? Lochees, that is.
Sahi Rioth
106. Sahirioth
I always figured it sounded more Scottish, like "loch-ease". But the proper way to pronounce it seems to suggest a kinship with the Lockless, as has been theorized before in the comments.
Steven Halter
107. stevenhalter
I've been mulling over the copper as a Faraday cage for magic and I am kind of liking that path. It would be very interesting to ask Pat (and get a real answer) on whether a mesh of silver could have been used in the stone with a similar effect in the cell room.
If so, this would imply it is a physical characteristic of the metals that allow them to hinder magic effects. If not, then it is specific to copper.
Obviously, a silver mesh/sword would be more expensive than a copper one. Silver knives are quite traditional as magic implements.
The copper as a "Faraday cage" does help explain the difference Kvothe felt as he entered the cell room.
124. DB3006
I wander what is significant about the name Eolian... It means caused by, or carried by the wind. Also, Aeolus was master of winds in Greek mythology. Hmmm...
130. OliverStein
Theory about Cinder's immortality, which I think is rather underanalyzed, along with the immortality of Haliax's men.

Cinder is immortal somehow, and that this was granted, not an original ability, which seems reasonable, as only Lanre has reign over the Doors of the Mind. (Sleep, Forgetting, Madness, Death)

Cinder is as old as Haliax, as were the rest of the Seven, as they helped him betray the Empire. As such, he was not recruited after the fact. He knows how rain falls, so to speak.

Caesura is the name for Kvothe's original sword, and Kaysera is a bastardization of that, rather than a name for Folly.
Corollary: Folly is not Caesura, which I do not imagine could be shaped.

Here is the leap- Cinder, or something he possesses (For expedience, his possession, if it is one, will be his sword.) grants his immortality, and does so only because he or it has been shaped. As such, when Haliax threatened and hurt him with the Name Ferula. (Rather than his proper name, after being shaped, (Not before, or it would not ping his name-radar) which is Ferule.) I propose that this was his original name, or a variant on his new one that is not immortal.

The implication: Kvothe kills Cinder (I am convinced by his "I have killed men, and things that were more than men, every one of them deserved it." speech that he has killed one of the Seven, and logic indicates that he would kill Cinder, as he has a personal antagonism towards him, along with it providing a source for Folly.) by Shaping him, either back to who he was, or something entirely new.

The probable reality: This has to connect to how he opened The Doors of Stone. (Note: TDOS could be the Lackless door, the 4-plate door, anything. No matter what, he opens it.) As such, he either:
Opens the door by Shaping (Unlikely, as we see Haliax Shape/Name, and Kvothe has a chance to do it to Felurian.)
Opened the door to learn to Shape (Unlikely, as he can Shape already; all he needs is power over Cinder's Name, a easy task in the long run.)
He opened the door to find Cinder. (To me, this is most likely, assuming my theory works.)
George Brell
131. gbrell

Just lost a long post addressing your points to the internet, but I'll try and re-create it.

I've always tied Cinder's (and the other Chandrian's) immortality to Skarpi's story re: Selitos and Lanre. His words are:

"By the power of my own blood I bind you. By your own name let you be accursed.
"This is my doom upon you. May your face be always held in shadow, black as the toppled towers of my beloved Myr Tariniel.
"This is my doom upon you. Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace.
"This is my doom upon you and all who follow you. May it last until the world ends and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky"

This ties in with an earlier theory posited by someone else that the Chandrian's signs are actually knacks that have been either perverted or greatly enhanced beyond control. This ties in nicely with line: "Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace."

As I laid out previously in comment 18, I don't believe that Folly is Cinder's sword, but I do agree that Kvothe is likely to meet and kill Cinder by the end of D3.
132. Amperage
I am very late to the game here, but
"en temerant voistra"
A namer is never tott (taught?)
Carla Huybert
133. Unimaginative1
@132. Amperage

Seriously? Now I have to look for anagrams too?

Is there any stone Pat left unturned?
135. slybttrfly
1st time here although Ive read the books a half-dozen times. Has anyone commented on the fact that K's alar is like ramston steel, but when he meets the tinker (by the eld) K mentions his father used to say ramston steel is the best knife you will ever have until it breaks (not a direct quote, dont have the book on me) implying that it is brittle. I think this supports the theory that his alar is "broken" in some way.
Steven Halter
136. stevenhalter
slybttrfly@135:Yes, we've noted that and it is one of the supporting pieces that Kote is broken or Kvothe broke. Of course, it could be a red herring, but good picking up on that.

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