Mar 27 2012 2:00pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Gathering Storm, Part 25

The Wheel of Time reread on Tor.comIt’s a Wheel of Time Re-read! Either that, or it’s its own grandfather. Dun!

Today’s entry covers Chapter 44 of The Gathering Storm, in which I fail some more at philosophy and logic, and Rand fails some more at not being a giant poopy head.

We’re having one chapter this week so that the remaining chapters pair up all pretty. And because I said so.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general, including the newest release, Towers of Midnight.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 13, Towers of Midnight. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And now, the post!

Also, scheduling note: JordanCon 2012 is a-coming! I will be there, and speaking on some panels, and meeting people, and generally having the blast I always have whenever I go to this shindig. You should come, too!

Coincidentally, it looks like I will be polishing off TGS in the Re-read right before I go. Therefore, your Auntie Leigh will be taking her traditional between-book break starting the last week of April, before starting Towers of Midnight. How long that hiatus will be, I ain’t for sure yet, but I will let you know as soon as I do. And in the meantime, I will have some fun JordanCon-related blogging for you!


Chapter 44: Scents Unknown

What Happens
Rand, Nynaeve, Narishma, and Naeff are riding with a company of Aiel guards over the Plains of Maredo, heading to a meeting with the delegation from the Borderlander armies. Nynaeve is arguing with Rand about his plans for the Blightborder; she wants him to reinforce Lan’s forces at Tarwin’s Gap, but Rand replies that it would be “a waste of resources.” Nynaeve tries to swallow down her anger and speak calmly, even though Rand had been ignoring her reasoned arguments for days now.

Each day brought Lan one step closer to a fight he couldn’t win. Each day made her more anxious; several times, she’d nearly abandoned Rand and ridden for the north. If Lan was going to fight an impossible battle, then she longed to be at his side. But she stayed. Light take Rand al’Thor, she stayed. What good would it do to help Lan, only to let the world fall into Shadow because of a stubborn sheepherder’s stubborn... stubbornness!

Nynaeve yanks her braid and points out that Ituralde has said the Blight is “swarming” with Trollocs, and she bets the bulk of them will be at the Gap, the easiest point to break through. Rand tells her coldly that that is exactly why he won’t go there; he has no interest in letting the enemy dictate the battlefield. He intends to jump directly to Shayol Ghul instead. Nynaeve counters that there is no way Lan can hope to hold the Gap alone; if Rand does not aid him, he will be overrun. Rand replies that this is good; it will keep the Shadow’s forces occupied while he makes his move.

“Rand,” Nynaeve said, her anger fading to horror. “Lan will die!”

“Then who am I to deny him that?” Rand said. “We all deserve the chance to find peace.”

Nynaeve found her mouth hanging open. He actually believed that! Or he was convincing himself to believe it, at least.

“My duty is to kill The Dark One,” Rand said, as if to himself. “I kill him, then I die. That is all.”


“That is enough, Nynaeve.” Rand spoke softly in that dangerous voice of his. He would not be pressed further.

Nynaeve thinks of what will happen to the people of the Borderlands and beyond if Rand’s plan goes through: that the Seanchan and the Trollocs will meet in the middle eventually, and turn all the lands between them into a massive battleground, crushing everyone before them. She tries to think of something to turn Rand away from this course of action, but cannot think of anything. In desperation, she turns back to Cadsuane’s instructions for her mysterious “plan,” even though she resents being kept in the dark, and asks Rand if he knows where Perrin is. When he asks why, she says she is worried about him, but Rand doesn’t believe her. He tells her that he and Mat and Perrin are “connected,” but refuses to elaborate further.

Nynaeve settled back, gritting her teeth again. The other Aes Sedai spoke of being in control of their emotions, but obviously they didn’t have to deal with Rand al’Thor. Nynaeve could be calm too, if she weren’t expected to manage the most bullheaded fool of a man who had ever put on a pair of boots.

Nynaeve falls back to ride with Narishma, and asks if he, as a Borderlander, has any idea why the Borderland monarchs left their posts. Narishma replies that he was a cobbler’s son, and has no notion of the ways of nobility. He adds, though, that any Borderlander would die before breaking their word, and doesn’t know what to make of the armies abandoning their posts the way they have. Nynaeve thinks of Lan’s sense of honor and how it frustrates her even as she admires him for it, and vows again to find some way to help him. The Aiel scouts return; Rand asks if they complied with his restrictions – no more than two hundred men and four or fewer Aes Sedai. The scouts reply that they have, for they only sent one man, by himself. They come to the crossroads where the meeting is set to find a man waiting for them; Nynaeve is shocked to recognize Hurin, the thief-taker and “sniffer” from Shienar. Hurin begins to greet Rand with enthusiasm, but is cut off as Rand picks him up on flows of Air and holds him in midair.

“Who chased after you and me, Hurin,” Rand called, “the time when we were trapped in that distant shadow land? What nationality of men did I fell with the bow?”

“Men?” Hurin asked, voice almost a squawk. “Lord Rand, there were no men in that place! None that we met, beyond Lady Selene, that is. All I remember are those frog beasts, the same ones folk say those Seanchan ride!”

Hurin asks if Rand doesn’t believe it is him. Rand says that he supposes the Borderlanders sent Hurin because of their history together. Nynaeve feels sorry for Hurin, knowing how he had idolized Rand, and supposes this must be “unsettling” for him. Hurin is then distracted by the “smell” in the air, saying he’s never smelled it before.

“What?” Rand asked.

“I don’t know,” Hurin said. “The air... it smells like a lot of death, a lot of violence, only not. It’s darker. More terrible.” He shuddered visibly.

Rand doesn’t seem to care about this, and wants to know why the Borderlanders only sent Hurin. Hurin tells him he’s here to set the terms for the actual meeting. He explains that the Borderlanders are in Far Madding, and want him to meet with them there inside the protection of the Guardian ter’angreal. Rand cuts Hurin off and opens a gateway to a short distance away, then another to Far Madding; Nynaeve is confused by this until she realizes it lets Rand skip the step of learning the place he’s starting from, since Traveling to a place teaches someone that location well enough to create gateways from it, and is embarrassed that she never thought of that herself. The Borderlander army is camped all around the lake surrounding Far Madding, within the bubble of the Guardian’s influence. Rand comments that they expect him to “ride into their box,” but they do not understand that no one controls him anymore. He takes out the access key ter’angreal.

“Perhaps they need to be taught,” Rand said. “Given encouragement to do their duty and obey me.”

“Rand...” Nynaeve tried to think. She couldn’t let this happen again!

The access key began to glow faintly. “They want to capture me,” he said softly. “Hold me. Beat me. They did it once in Far Madding already. They—”

“Rand!” Nynaeve said sharply.

He stopped, looking at her, seeing her as if for the first time.

“These are not slaves with their minds already burned away by Graendal. That is an entire city full of innocent people!”

Rand replies that he would only strike the army, not the townsfolk, and Nynaeve counters that the Borderlanders have done nothing except ask him to meet them. She tells him that if he does this, there is no turning back. Rand replies it is already too late for that, but backs off, to Nynaeve’s relief. Rand gives Hurin a message for his leaders:

“Tell them that it will not be long before the Dragon Reborn rides to battle at Shayol Ghul. If they wish to return to their posts with honor, I will provide them with transport back to the Blight. Otherwise, they can remain here, hiding. Let them explain to their children and grandchildren why they were hundreds of leagues away from their posts when the Dark One was slain and the prophecies fulfilled.”

Hurin looked shaken. “Yes, Lord Rand.” […] His reunion with “Lord Rand” had obviously been far from what he expected.

They Travel back to Tear, and once there Rand surprises Nynaeve by telling her to look for Perrin camped with an army in the shade of a huge statue “shaped like a sword stabbing the earth.” She asks how he knows, and he says he just does. She asks why he told her, and he replies that he owes her a debt, “for caring when I cannot,” and leaves. She hurries into the keep, getting lost twice in the changing hallways, and finds Cadsuane in her room with Merise, Corele, and Min. Nynaeve feels sympathy for Min, who she doesn’t blame for seeming to avoid Rand lately. She informs them that she’s found Perrin, and Cadsuane praises her for being “of use” after all; Nynaeve is intensely annoyed that she is pleased by such a backhanded compliment. She refuses to tell, however, until Cadsuane tells her why Perrin is so important, and whether the information will end up hurting Rand more. Cadsuane is annoyed, and asks how the meeting with the Borderlanders went. Nynaeve replies it went as badly as could be expected, and relates what happened. She adds that she only barely stopped him, and that it might be becoming too late to do anything with him.

“That boy will laugh again,” Cadsuane said quietly, but intensely. “I didn’t live this long to fail now.”

Corele asks why it matters, to Nynaeve’s shock, and explains that Min’s viewings include things that clearly can’t happen until after the Last Battle; ergo, she thinks, since Min’s viewings are never wrong, that indicates that their side must prevail. Min informs her that she is mistaken, for if Rand loses, there is no Pattern; the Dark One will destroy it, and all prophecies related to it will fail. The others are silenced, and Nynaeve reluctantly concludes that assisting Cadsuane is of paramount importance. She tells them what Rand said about Perrin, and Cadsuane recognizes the statue, which is near the Jehannah Road. She tells them they are going there, right now.

She hesitated, then glanced at Nynaeve. “In answer to your question earlier, child, Perrin actually isn’t important to our plans.”

“He isn’t?” Nynaeve asked. “But—”

Cadsuane raised a finger. “There are people with him who are vital. One in particular.”

ObligatoryUghTGSRand: Ugh, TGS Rand. You hurt my heart, you really do.

It just keeps getting worser and worser, don’t it? Natrin’s Barrow to Arad Doman to this is just putting whole new dollops of lube on that slippery slope Rand’s rocking. We’re going to break the sound barrier at this rate.

Although, true, I personally found the first two incidents to be more appalling, but I think that’s mainly because (a) nothing catastrophically bad actually happens here, unlike the other two things; it’s just the fact that it so easily could have, and that this time Rand doesn’t even have the flimsy excuse of “(massive) collateral damage while engaging enemy,” because these are his own fucking allies he’s about to slaughter.

And (b), by this point I was just kind of numb to the shock of Rand’s increasing horribleness. It was like, oh, look, it got worse. Sigh, slump, wish I was reading an Egwene chapter instead.

Of course, in light of what happens when the monarchs do actually meet with Rand, I’d venture to speculate that this outcome was, in fact, by far the best that could be hoped for at this stage. Rand himself tells the Borderlanders in ToM that it was a damn good thing they didn’t pull their bitchslapping crap on him the first time he went to Far Madding (and seriously, what the hell with that whole thing, I am still just flabbergasted, but more on that at the proper time), and re-reading this scene now, I’m prepared to state that that just might be the understatement of the Third Age.

Possibly the Fourth, too, for good measure, because daaaaaamn. If you think Shadar Logoth in WH looked like a smoking crater…

Thank God for Nynaeve, yeah? Which just makes it all the more terrifying that she’d almost run off to help Lan (not that I blame her for wanting to), because I think it’s safe to say that Far Madding (or at least the area around it) would have been a smoking crater if she hadn’t been there, and that’s even without the bitchslapping incentive! So Nynaeve saves the day, if less pyrotechnically than is her usual saving wont, and that’s nice because it feels like it’s been a while since she’s gotten to do that.

Speaking of Lan, once again, WHAT THE HELL, RAND. Again, I tend to think Nynaeve actually underreacted to what Rand was saying, which was, basically, “not only am I not going to help your husband, I am basing my battle strategy on his certain demise! Yay!”

Well, okay, not “Yay.” Rand is not exactly in a “Yay” place at the moment, even a sarcastic “Yay.” So, yeah.

Anyway, Nynaeve. I guess she is just more practical than I am. I mean, it’s not like she didn’t know already that the chances of Lan coming through this alive were rather astronomically low, and it’s not like planning battles don’t involve planning on how to use the deaths of your own forces to your tactical advantage.

But it’s not so much the sentiment itself, it’s the callousness of the way he says it that would have had me seeing red; the fact that he just – doesn’t – care. Not even about Lan, his teacher, his first real ally (yes, even before Perrin and Mat), and the closest person Rand’s had to a mentor since he left Tam behind in the Two Rivers. Rand is the guy who, four books ago, fell off a roof to his certain phobia-triggering capture rather than let Lan fall on his own, and now he’s… this.

Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh.

But I think the part that got me the worst in this chapter was how Rand treated Hurin. That really upset me, because while I was angered on Nynaeve’s behalf, Nynaeve is a big girl who is more than tough enough to take what even Semi-Evil Rand can dish out. Whereas (and possibly I am making this up in my head, but whatever) poor Hurin was all so excited to see “Lord Rand” and was all hopeful that Rand would be pleased to see him, or at least, you know, was probably expecting that Rand would be capable of being fucking civil to him. And instead Rand is the biggest jerk to him ever.

It’s probably hypocritical of me, considering how indignant I’m going to be over the Monarch Bitchslapping Incident of ToM (and how mad I got at Cadsuane for doing it, too), but if I had been standing there I might have slapped him. You be nice to Hurin! He is awesome and was nothing but your friend, and he does not deserve to deal with the giant steaming pile of assholery that is Rand al’Thor right now!


Speaking of Cadsuane, DUN! I honestly can’t remember if I’d guessed at this point who she was going to retrieve from Perrin’s entourage. Going by my general track record, though, probably not. Also, I’m not sure I actually remembered Tam was with Perrin’s party at this point anyway.

Other random things from this chapter:

Traveling trick: I’m pretty sure I’ve said it before, but to reiterate for the record: Traveling makes NO SENSE. At least not to me, because I just cannot get my brain around the idea that you don’t actually have to know where you are going to get there. That is straight-up Lewis Carroll Red Queen deranged-making physics fail right there.

That said, I don’t particularly mind that it doesn’t make sense, for much the same reason warp drive technology doesn’t really bother me in Star Trek, because I tend to view both things as much more of a literary device than anything that needs to make actual physical sense. Someone once said that stories are life with the boring parts cut out, and instantaneous travel methods of any stripe contribute admirably to helping us all skip the boring parts, so why worry?

Yes, I am aware this is a little bit insane. But hey, it’s not like y’all don’t know what you’re in for by this point.

Also, ha ha, Corele fails at…

*three hours later* AGGGH. The entire field of logic and philosophy is fired. And so is Wikipedia. And Google. (Or, possibly, my online research skills. Shut up.)

So, I don’t know exactly what you call the thing Corele fails at, but she definitely fails at it. (Predestination paradox? No, that’s the Terminator thing. Newcomb’s Paradox? No, that’s not it. The paradox of free will? Not exactly. The problem of future contingents? Uh. Maybe? Determinism? Um… Syllogism? Er… Post hoc ergo propter hoc? MY HEAD ASPLODE)

The problem is not understanding what Min is saying, because it makes perfect sense to me: prophecies work as long as reality exists, otherwise they don’t. Duh. The problem is that I don’t know what you call that. Or if it actually has a name in the first place. Anyone who actually remembers their education in this stuff is more than welcome to help me out here.

And since I now have a splitting headache, this is where we stop! Philosophize away in the comments, and come back next week for some more yummy Egwene-y goodness! Ciao!

Sam Mickel
2. Samadai
This is a very emotional chapter to read. I can feel Rands emotions churning, as he clings to edge. He knows Nynaeve wants to help him and sees no way that she can, but gives her the info she needs to try.
great chapter
3. mityorkie
Corele failed at "thinking outside the box" - the box being the Pattern.

I doubt wikipedia entries on logic and philosophy have any room for true prophesy.
Philip Alan Smith
4. AlanS7
Rand's refusal to help Lan is icky, but I found it far colder when in Bandar Eban he said "His death could serve me well indeed." (Ch.31)
6. zackattack
“These are not slaves with their minds already burned away by Graendal. That is an entire city full of innocent people!” This is more or less why I am semi-ok with the balefiring of NB. It would appear Nynaeve agrees, at least in part. Or at least recognizes that there are defiantly worse things.

Anyone taking bets on Lan’s chances of surviving the Last Battle? I was kind of sad reading the end of ToM because it certainly seems to be setting up Lan’s heroic death. Also Min has a vision of Nynaeve weeping over someone’s corpse/grave. But then again this is WoT and no one ever really dies (or stays dead). Also it feels a little too obvious. So my guess: Lan survives. Somehow. Given that we last see him charging into a field of Trollocs that outnumber him like 20-1, I am waiting with baited breath to see how this works out for him.

Leigh, I believe the term you are looking for is common sense. Because…it’s really obvious? Any visions of the future would be obliterated when existence is unmade. Along with everything else there were no visions of. I actually rather like Corele and was annoyed that she was written as being kind of stupid here to make Min come off as non-useless.
7. AndrewB
Thanks for a great recap.

This chapter has another example of why I do not like Nynaeve. I do not have the book in front of me at this moment. Howver, IIRC, Nynaeve was not only mad at herself/embarrased for not knowing the Traveling trick. Rather, she was indignet at Rand for having the audacity to have learned something that the Aes Sedai did not where it came to channeling.

(BTW, if I am incorrect about Nynaeve's thoughts in this chapter, this is an example of where one's dislike for a character clouds said person's memories of the scene.)

Thanks for reading my musings,
Cameron Tucker
8. Loialson
Poor Hurin :(.

And Nynaeve is awesomesauce. Again.

I love Min to itty bitty pieces. She's the most...wifely (meaning all of the good connotations that comes with the marriage relationship/bond) of Rand's three chickas I think, and I love her for that.

Not that I dont love El and Avi, but Min just melts my heart, because she gives up EVERYTHING in her life for Rand, that takes alot of sacrifice and guts, so wow and yay for the supporting characters like Min (and kindly people in the corners like Anaiya Sedai) who make the world go round. Girls like that have far more power and influence than most give them credit for, and they plum just do so much good. I love girls.
9. parabola
I'm going to throw out the term Anthropic Principle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
ana liese
10. analiese
AndrewB @ 7

This chapter has another example of why I do not like Nynaeve. I do not have the book in front of me at this moment. Howver, IIRC, Nynaeve was not only mad at herself/embarrased for not knowing the Traveling trick. Rather, she was indignet at Rand for having the audacity to have learned something that the Aes Sedai did not where it came to channeling.
So by Traveling a short hop first, Rand memorized the location well enough to create gateways wherever he wanted—while skipping the time needed to learn the area! It was extremely clever, and Nynaeve felt herself blushing that she hadn't seen the possibility before. How long had Rand known of this trick? Had memory of it come from that ... voice in his head? -TGS
(BTW, if I am incorrect about Nynaeve's thoughts in this chapter, this is an example of where one's dislike for a character clouds said person's memories of the scene.)

Pretty much, yes.
11. Lsana
Reality existance failure? Not sure there's any real need to put a name to that; it probably can't happen, and if it does, we won't need to worry about names.

To be fair to Corele, I don't know that there is any reason to discount her interpretation of Min's viewings. Min is never wrong after all. Min's theory that she might be wrong if reality ceased to exist has some merit, but it's not a testable hypothesis, and I think it's been established that Min doesn't really understand how her gift works better than anyone else.

Of course, it's probably better to err on the side of caution and assume that the good guys could lose. If Corele is making a mistake, I would say that's it.
12. MostlyAnthony
Loialson, let's shake hands. Indeed, Min IS the best. The only one who really cares about Rand, not about the Dragon Reborn, car'a'carn, or whatever prophesised hero, no, Min cares abot RAND!
Matthew Hunter
13. matthew1215
Rand&Lan: Remember, Leigh, Rand didn't order Lan to ride to the Gap. Lan did that on his own, and while it would be nice if Rand's battle strategies can save Lan's life, I don't think Lan would expect Rand to lose the whole enchilada to save him. Lan is just answering the same call felt by the other borderlanders in the prologue. Rand is charged with the whole thing, not just the one piece; if anything, Lan is abandoning Rand rather than the other way around.

That's not to support or oppose deploying forces to Tarwin's Gap, it's just saying that I don't think Rand is morally obligated to shift the entire strategy that he has planned in order to save the life of one friend who ran off to do his own thing.

That said, not *caring* whether Lan dies is another matter, and Rand deserves criticism for that. Though I tend to think it's more that he's trying to harden himself not to care than actually not caring.

AlanS7@4: Yes, that line is the low point on the not-helping-Lan attitude.

Rand&Borderlanders: The bitchslap thing from the Borderlanders was clearly set up by the Pattern to destroy Rand here, before the last battle, if he was still the Dark Rand when he met with them. Doesn't make any sense otherwise. It's a last-minute kill switch prophecy to take out the Dragon if he's gone Dark.

Also, wiping out the borderlanders here WOULD represent a clear Moral Event Horizon in the way that people talking about Natrin's Barrow thought it was and were wrong about. Natrin's Barrow was, as you say, a case of massive collateral damage in a valid attack on enemy forces. The narrowly-averted event here would be a case of hundreds of thousands of casaulties from an attack on your own forces with no justification beyond Rand's ego.

Rand&Perrin'sPartyOfPeople: I am pretty sure that I guessed who Cadsuane was going to retrieve as soon as she said her line about it not being Perrin. Though I'm not sure how she knew Tam was with Perrin, there really wasn't anyone else with Perrin who could have made a difference, and I had been paying close attention to where Tam was.

Finally -- Traveling makes no sense. I get the strong impression that the whole set of rules about how it works was developed around the middle of the series to be consistent with how it had been used early in the books, rather than coming up with something that made sense in the beginning and then sticking to it. Unless, maybe, there's a Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle physics joke that Traveling is intended to analogize to.
Deana Whitney
14. Braid_Tug
Re: Post –
Poor Hurin. We’ve waited 9.5 books to hear about him again and he gets barley any time. Book 2 he’s in the company of Hawkwing, now he’s a messenger boy who gets this treatment? Waste! Hope he gets a moment of glory in aMoL, otherwise his return was truly a waste of a good character.

Re: Traveling –
Since it’s descried for the women as “making two places similar to each other,” I’ve not had a problem with the whole “know where you’re at, not where you’re going.” Because in a sense, you are making where you’re going, the place you are at. Hope that’s clear.

But for the guys who are boring holes in the Pattern from one place to another – no, that doesn’t make as much sense. Sounds more like the True Power’s way of ripping the Pattern apart to travel and a little to Shadow-like. Even with the whole adage of “the fastest way between any two points is a straight line.”
15. HeWhoComesWithTheNoon
I must say, although of course Rand has become this terrible monster in this book, this statement by him I can get behind:

“Tell them that it will not be long before the Dragon Reborn rides to battle at Shayol Ghul. If they wish to return to their posts with honor, I will provide them with transport back to the Blight. Otherwise, they can remain here, hiding. Let them explain to their children and grandchildren why they were hundreds of leagues away from their posts when the Dark One was slain and the prophecies fulfilled.”

Basically, Borderlanders, can we NOT give our messiah-figure, whose grip on sanity is getting more tenuous by the page, another GIANT thing to worry about? Why has he been ignoring the blight and the Borderlands, I don't know, maybe because you are the one group of people he should be able to trust to be loyal and do their duty without having to breathe down their necks the whole time?
16. Rancho Unicorno
This section actually affirms my faith in Rand's humanity more than it worries me.

NB/FM - In both cases, Rand knew he was in a bad place and can't see the trees that make the forest of his vision, let along the bird and other cute critters. In the former, Nynaeve couldn't talk him down, and he had to cave to his madness. In the latter, she could and she did. Is it fair for him to put that responsibility on her shoulders? No. Does he do it because he trusts her? Yes.

Nynaeve - Up to this point, her greatest strength in her relationship with Rand was that she sought to teach and counsel him - not guide or push him. She was neither in front or behind him, but at his side. Here, she begins to slip. Rand does not see it, but her caring for individuals (something Rand has forgotten) has caused her to try and guide him on the path that she thinks best. She may think it in his interests, but it's her vision that she's following. Obviously it all works out in the end, but she's not on a positive path right now.

Cads - No sir, I don't like her.

Corele - If I squint, I can see her confusion. Everybody says that Min's viewings are failproof. She has viewings that take place post-apocolypse. The world will survive. QED. That reality will cease to exist, rendering the viewings never successful (nor failed), is such a massive sword over her head, it's reasonable she forgot to account for it.

Hurin - Like others, I feel bad for the guy. But, I've met folks like him. Rand's treatment will flow right off his back. He'll chalk it up to a bad day - and in this case be too right.

Lan - I have a feeling that Rand and Lan are in more agreement that you're giving them credit for. Like Rand, Lan is looking for peace in death (granted, the whole getting married thing has shifted that a little). Both believe that they have a duty and obligation that nobody can help them with, seeking assistance only begrudgingly. Both love the other enough to not expect the other to assist in his doomed quest. And I suspect that neither would forgive the other for abandoning his own quest simply to provide aid. As far as sending people to support Lan, I'd call that out of the question as well - this is a Malkieri fight. Not a Borderlander fight, not a Westerosi fight, not world fight. It's the people of that one kingdom doing their thing.
17. NotInventedHere
Dark Rand is Dark. Team Jordan continues to hit us over the head with Rand planning on killing the DO, which I'm pretty sure is 50% of his darkness here. He has decided that nothing matters as long as he is there to kill the DO. Of course, killing the DO would be a big no-no and unmake the pattern, but so it goes. Rand is just so pissed off at everything that has happened, so beaten up, that he can't see anything other than this confrontation.

Incidentally, I think this is what the DO has been maneuvering towards the whole time - get Rand so worked up he tries to end the conflict 'forever' (like Ishydin, who realizes the war will never end as long as the Pattern exists, make him just want to end it one way or the other). The Choedan Khal was likely made for this purpose (or at least gives Rand the power to do it), and Rand's realization that he absolutely must not (attempt to) kill the DO is at least part of the reason he destroys it in ToM (or is it the end of this book? Don't remember). I believe you'll also notice that after his upcoming revelation he no longer discusses killing the DO, merely facing him; I think he finally realizes that the pattern requires light and dark, that the eternal struggle must go on or there is no living for anyone. His goal becomes (or returns to being) locking up the DO in a re-made cell to give the world a respite; it is beyond his power (or anyone's without unmaking the pattern) to end the struggle forever.

Oops, got a little sidetracked there, but Rand repeatedly stating he was going to kill the DO at SG ties in so nicely with his descent into darkness that I couldn't pass it up.
Rich Bennett
18. Neuralnet
The introduction of the traveling trick really annoyed me during my first read of this chapter and even now still slightly annoys me. It just seemed like they (Jordan's notes, Sanderson, or team jordon) decide to change the rules for traveling. I just cant believe that Nyneave or Egwene or someone else wouldnt have thought of this after the first or second time they used traveling to go anywhere. It would have been so obvious.
19. alea_iacta_est
I really like Nyneave in these chapters. In a way, she's come full circle and is back to being a Wisdom, this time with Rand as her only charge.
20. Kappi
For Traveling, I think you need to know where you are so that you can establish your point of reference in the world. If you know where you are, then it's easier to figure out HOW to get to where you need to go. Throwing out a Stargate reference (original movie), they needed the 7th symbol before they could use the gate. The 7th symbol was the point of origin, which is needed for them to plot a course or path. Maybe this is a crap example because they used 6 points for the destination... whatever. I have no practical or theoretical experience in such matters, but I like to think of it like an equation. You are at X. You want to get to Y. Y = X + 500.
21. MasterAlThor
Tactically what Rand wants to do makes sense. But leaving Lan to die to accomplish his goals is EPIC BAD. I couldn't believe that Rand could be that callous. Yes even reading the previous chapters.

This is where he started to drive me nuts. His treatment of Hurin and his "well thems the breaks" with Lan.

But what really stood out to me is Nynaeve. You can't complain about your husband going to die when you sent him there in the first place. That is just stupid. Yep Lan was mooning over going to do his duty and you were fully aware that he wanted no help, but you took him anyway. Sure you tried to get him some help by letting everyone you could find know that he was coming, but you knew it was't enough. So you tried to get Rand to help and when that clearly blew up in your face you want to get mad? You set your husband on this path. Don't get mad cause your master scheme didn't work the way you wanted.


As an aside. My uncle Richard Bell has been called home to be with our Lord. For those of you that care about me and mine please remember us in your prayers. Thank you.
Rob Munnelly
22. RobMRobM
@6 - yes, I'll take a bet that Lan survives and has a baby with Nyn that they can give a sword to, just like in Min's prophecy in EOTW.
23. MasterAlThor
@16 Rancho

I see your Ren & Simpy reference. Best episode ever was the Rubber Nipple Salesmen.

Do I know you? Did my wife send you? How do I know you are not the FBI?

Love it.

Rob Munnelly
24. RobMRobM
MAT - sorry about your uncle. Condolences. Rob
Birgit F
25. birgit
Though I'm not sure how she knew Tam was with Perrin

She first looked for him in the Two Rivers where she learned that he had gone to Perrin's army.

not a Westerosi fight

Because this is Randland. You are in the wrong series.

Who are Irwin Shrodinger and Heisenburg? Their names are Erwin Schrödinger and Werner Heisenberg. Are German names so difficult to spell?
Tricia Irish
26. Tektonica
See you soon, Leigh....and she's right...Y'all should come to Jcon!!

Nynaeve is AWESOME. She was my most disliked character from Book One until Cads arrived, but she has grown, and matured, and even, almost, become self-aware! She is brave, true, and loyal to Rand in the face of huge personal loss. Her priorities are screwed on right! She has been the one Rock for Rand through it all, and she gets my vote as the most awesome Aes Sedai. Yes, even more than Egwene, because Nynaeve questions "the rules", and is generous (after grousing about things), and knows what's truly important for our hero....who desperately needs her!
( I know their roles and responsibilities are different).

Loialson@8: Agree. Min is the bestest. She does love Rand, irrespective of all his titles, etc. She and Nynaeve have his back.

Poor Hurin. I felt terrible for him in this chapter. It really weirded me out when Hurin started smelling Death around Rand. ug....oh Rand.

Yes....Rand is a mess.
Thank you Nynaeve for saving all those damn Borderlanders...that should NOT have abandoned the Blight enmass, just to see if Rand is the real Dragon. Dumb Dumb Dumb. Unnecessary plot device. Waste of an army. Why didn't they just send a couple Heads of State, with a small entourage to meet with "the Dragon Reborn" and ask their questions??? Grrrr. (This was one of the dumbest things in all the books, if you ask me...but more on that later....)

Rand and Lan "get" each other, for sure. They've talked about how Death will be a relief. Lan has been seeking this since New Spring.....not that WE have to like it. Rand is being strategic. Although we don't like seeing him cold like this, he's juggling lots of balls, and has to see the whole picture. He did NOT send Lan to the Blight, by himself. Lan and Nynaeve did that.

I know Cads intentions are good, and lord knows Rand needs an attitude adjustment (understatement), but here she is again, not explaining to anyone, and trying to "manipulate" not help. I just don't like her methods....they aren't working!!! (understatement #2.)
Tricia Irish
27. Tektonica
Master al'Thor@21:

So sorry about your uncle ;-( My prayers go out to you and yours.
James Hogan
29. Sonofthunder
MAT - My prayers are with you and your family..
Roger Powell
30. forkroot
I am waiting with baited breath to see how this works out for him
Don't you mean bated breath?
    {:: sniffs zackattack's breath ::}
Whew! Never mind, you were right the first time.
    {:: just teasing, of course! ::}
Re Lan: I have stated in previous comments that I am very frustrated with Lan and his personal agenda. Here was a guy that was an important part of Rand's entourage - a friend, a mentor, and (as of ToM) the Warder to one of Rand's most important helpers. He is also an excellent general who should be coordinating his leadership with the rest of Team List. With the potential "End of the World" looming, he went haring off on his own personal honor mission, instead of being a team player.

None of that excuses Rand's coldness, of course. Presumably we're all in agreement that Dark Rand is really sucky. We would hope for some emotion from Rand (maybe sadness mixed with frustration).

With that said, if one of his generals goes AWOL and starts a battle, Rand is well justified in trying to make the best of the situation. If that means abandoning Lan to his fate (as a distraction), then so be it.

Fortunately for Lan (and for Mat, Perrin, and others before him), the Pattern will get him to where he needs to be and in the fight he needs to fight. I'm sure the revised Team Light strategy (presumably to be worked out at the Field of Merrilor) will include some help for Lan and his men.
Anthony Pero
31. anthonypero
RE: Traveling...

@neuralnet: Actually, this was a logical consequence that had been pointed out by fans for years. It was thrown in by Sanderson, I'm sure, as a wink and a nudge to fans.

As far as the "logic" behind needing to know where you are more than where you are going... Imagine looking at a map. If you know where you are on a map, you can just decide a destination and use the map to get there, whether you've been there or not. If you don't know where you are... it really doesn't matter whether you've been to where you are going or not. Knowing where you are in order to travel somewhere makes perfect sense to me.
Alice Arneson
32. Wetlandernw
matthew1215 @13 - FYI, Cadsuane went to the Two Rivers looking for Tam, found out he'd gone off to help Perrin, and so has been trying to find Perrin in order to find Tam. I liked the way their conversation helped Nynaeve recognize that it just didn't matter whether she understood or not, she simply couldn't withhold information out of pique. I also liked the way Cadsuane then told her what was going on and took her along to find Perrin and Tam. (A quick side lesson for Nynaeve in "what must be endured, can be endured"?)

Completely irrelevant, but I've always wondered if Cadsuane had heard a Foretelling about herself, the Dragon and the Last Battle, or if she just knows a lot about what is needed from her own years of research. From the beginning, she's been absolutely convinced that "laughter and tears" are terminally critical; there's got to be a back-story reason for that. I wonder if we'll ever find out. (Anyone seeing Brandon soon?)

NotInventedHere @17 - Good insight. Not saying it hasn't been mentioned somewhere before, but I don't recall reading it here. Thank you.

Neuralnet @18 - Not sure why it should annoy you here; it's been clear for a long time that Traveling worked this way. I suspect that, if anything, Team Jordan was giving a nod here to the fans who were annoyed that no one had figured out this trick a long time ago.

MasterAlThor @21 - I will be praying for you in your loss, as well as rejoicing in his gain.

birgit - no umlaut on my keyboard... ;)

forkroot @30 - :) Thanks! Was trying to think of a good response to baited...

anthonypero @31 - I like that analogy! Will (hopefully) make some comments on the actual text later...
Nadine L.
33. travyl
Traveling: I always took traveling unquestioned (the author has the right to set his rules as he needs them, and as long as he doen't change the introduced rules on whim, I don't care). But: AP, your explanation actually does make sense, thanks for providing it.

Because Rand arrived at Merrilor in Perrin's camp without mentioning of the Borderlanders (IIRC) I always imagined that we would see a scene with the whole Borderlander army coming to Lan's help.
Anthony Pero
34. anthonypero
Also, RE: Traveling.

Its been a long time since I've read it, but I believe Raymnond Feist's Magician, and other books set in the same world, follow the exact same rules of Traveling. I could be wrong on that, but that's the way I remember it.

I also seem to remember that they made "traveling rooms" that were identical in order to facilitate this... but I could be making that up, lol. Also, Magician was published in 1982, over 15 years before traveling happened on screen in tWoT. If my memory is correct, it could be that the rules for traveling were borrowed from earlier material, much in the same way that FTL travel is borrowed constantly in SF. In otherwords, if a method works, why come up with something new?
Matthew Hunter
35. matthew1215
Wetlandernw@32: Cadsuane asking Nynaeve for info and refusing to explain it until after Nynaeve got it was... well, I can't entirely say it was unjustified (if Nynaeve can't get the info, Cadsuane would have given away her plans for nothing), but I still think it sucks. As far as I am concerned, Cadsuane is the outsider who needs to prove her worth in order to gain the trust of Rand and Nynaeve and the other protagonists, not the other way around.

*Were I Nynaeve*, I would have told her to go hang; Cadsuane can explain why she needs the information or live without it. Maybe compromise by saying "I know where he is, you tell me why you want it, and maybe I'll tell you." I certainly wouldn't tell Cadsuane blindly and hope she was trustworthy.

I suspect you're right about the backstory, but in all honesty, I think the story as a whole would be better without Cadsuane in it.
Birgit F
36. birgit
From the beginning, she's been absolutely convinced that "laughter and tears" are terminally critical; there's got to be a back-story reason for that.

She read the prophecies:
Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.
no umlaut on my keyboard

Is Irwin instead of Erwin an umlaut problem? Maybe it is an ablaut.
A Burg (castle) is often on a Berg (mountain), but it is not the same thing. Bürger (citizen) is probably an ablaut of Burg that is also an umlaut.
Tricia Irish
37. Tektonica

Re Lan: I have stated in previous comments that I am very frustrated with Lan and his personal agenda. Here was a guy that was an important part of Rand's entourage - a friend, a mentor, and (as of ToM) the Warder to one of Rand's most important helpers. He is also an excellent general who should be coordinating his leadership with the rest of Team List. With the potential "End of the World" looming, he went haring off on his own personal honor mission, instead of being a team player.

Completely agree. Lan went on his own crusade (with a little help from his wife, who saw him chomping at the bit, and indulged him), and now he's just going to have to make the best of it. Sure, it would be nice to see Rand care about that, but that's not where he is right now. Rand could certainly use Lan...perhaps to help formulate a coherent plan for dealing with the Blight, in the absence of the Borderlander army....grrrrrr.
Sam Mickel
38. Samadai
MAT, You and your family are in my prayers.
13. matthew1215

You know, I think you sorta got it wrapped up there in the beginning of your comment.

Everyone, is focusing on each individual instance where Rand fails to do this or doesn't even acknowledge that. When in fact his job is to save as much as he can. But he can't do that if he wastes time concentrating on one city or one person. He can't spend all the time necessary to save Lan, nor can he hesitate to take down a Forsaken even when innocents might fall with the blow. He can't supervise the training of the Asha'man any more than he could supervise the organization of Arad Extra Dry's failing government. Everything is coming to a head horribly fast...and just imagine....can you imagine what must be going through Rands head nowadays? I think at this point despite his ongoing fall to the Dark Side, Darth Rand is still making the right calls. Its just his aura of Dark Ta'veren' is distorting everything he does. His corrupted soul is corrupting his efforts to do good deeds because the Thought processes behind the deeds are corrupted.

Its sort of like building the most beautiful ice sulptures the world has ever seen, in the perfect place....Antarctica. But because you are some how generating 10,0000 BTU's of heat from your own body, your every effort of work melts before it can be completed, even in this most ideal situation.

Until his soul turns from the dark his every effort will fail, just as it seems all is well. His intentions are not what is the problem, its literaly the corruption of his soul and thus his motivation, his reasoning, his lack of compassion for what he is doing corrupts his Ta'veren, hence it fails.

We all know this I think, but we lose focus on the broader picture and instead focus on individual happenings and are flaberghasted when he decides to coldly move on from his seeming failures. We forget to acknowledge that he IS correct when he says he must think about and save the lives of everyone, not just someone elses favorite like what Perrin did.Or like what Nynaeve would rather him do.

I mean what Perrin did to save Faile was just, just.....whoa! That was way worse than anything Rand or Egwene have yet to do. Purposefully and with no lack of callouseness, sell hundreds of women into what I think is the most horrible slavery, to save one person. I understand it, but commiting the act of the doing of it is just....Whoa! You know?

I don't know....what do you all think?

40. ryamano

Perrin didn't sell those women for the Seanchan just for Faile. By getting Seanchan help, he also eliminated a very destructive force in Ghealdan (the Shaido). These guys were raiding and enslaving basically everyone nearby. Perrin was just thinking about Faile back then, but in the end he probably saved more people from slavery (ga'shain) than he doomed (damane). Selfish reasons? Yes, but in the end a reasonably good net result.
Rob Munnelly
41. RobMRobM
@28 - EOTW 15.

As discussed in numerous prior posts throughout the years on this board (feeling my age, as I started earlier on this re-read than all or virtually all of the active posters), I'm aware of, but don't agree with, the interpretation that Min's viewing looks back to Lan as a baby rather than forward to his future child.

Paul Long
42. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Paul Long
43. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
Thomas Keith
44. insectoid
Hi Leigh! I sorta figured this would be a one-chapter post; it makes sense logically. Wouldn't want to break up Eg's re-Amyrlining, etc., after all.

JordanCon: *very whiny voice* I wanna gooooooo! Maybe I can twist Bab-o's arm next winter and convince her to take me to JC 2013, since by then we'll have lots to talk about. ;)

Rand: Is still being a butthead. A giant, delusional, completely insane, True Power-leaking butthead. Thank the Light he's nearly reached the bottom of his slippery slope.

Nynaeve: It's a good thing she's around to at least attempt to dissuade Rand from doing (any more) truly horrible things.

Min: Is an awesome scholar. And I heart her. That is all.

Pattern paradox: I personally would just call it 'paradox'. Though I'm sure one of our resident gurus can come up with a better name.

mityorkie @3:
Corele failed at "thinking outside the box" - the box being the Pattern.
Yeah, that works.

MAT @21: My sincerest condolences to you and your family.

William Fettes
45. Wolfmage
Oh boy. On the continuum of all Dark Rand's actions, IMO this was potentially by far the worst, even if he ultimately avoids falling off the
precipice here.

At this point, I was still feeling some not inconsiderable annoyance at the Borderlanders for leaving their posts and dithering around. But we subsequently learn they have a critical prophesy-based purpose to seek out Rand an determine that he's okay. It's basically the Creator's insurance policy against the DO capturing the light's avatar, so in light of that, it's hard to get too worked up quibbling about their methods.

I mean, Rand almost dropped a firey acopocypse on their heads simply because he was frustrated and vaguely but not plausibly threatened by the proximity of Far Madding - involving bad memories they had nothing to do with. So, not cool at all. Argubly this much worse in intention than collateral damage during war, as per NB, or his embrace of naked prioritisation, a narrow scope of concern and this kind of bleak futility in running from Bandar Eban.

I also agree that his treatment of Hurin is very shabby which is distressing on a personal level. Though it's obviously not something that is morally weighty by itself, it is a symbolically potent show of the decay in his heart at this point in the story.

Hurin was a favourite supporting character of mine in the early books, so it's hard when Rand disabuses him so callously.
Some Person
46. The Ninth Horse
Corele's logic:
Premise: Min's viewings must occur
Premise: Some of Min's viewings can only happen if TG is won
Conclusion: TG must be won

This is logically valid, but not necessarily correct. According to Min, the first premise should include the clause "if the Pattern continues to exist" (a.k.a., "if we win TG"), which makes it beg the question. Even so, neither premise can be proved: the first is not a falsifiable rule and the second depends on accurate interpretations of things notoriously difficult to interpret.
47. NotInventedHere
@34: I belive in Magician the Tsuruani (sp?) wizards used patterned mats to assist in travelling. As I recall, the mat was made with an intricate, unique design; once a wizard knew the design, they could travel directly to that mat. These were usually put in non-descript travelling rooms, possibly because that helped them focus on just the mat to get there (rather than having to memorize the whole room). I could be remembering it backwards, but I'm fairly sure tht's how it worked.

I do like the imagery of your map analogy for travelling, but I don't think it withstands scrutiny - it would seem to suggest that all channelers somehow know where everything is in relation to everything else, all they need to do is figure out where they are in relation to these knowns. I'm not sure this really gains anything compared to just saying, "Magic."
Anthony Pero
48. anthonypero
Corele's logic is flawed because she doesn't seem to understand the core concept of what Min does. She doesn't see the future... she reads the Pattern. In other words, she's lookin at the top of the box of the world's largest Jigsaw puzzle. She sees what a peice of the puzzle looks like when finished. If the puzzle is not finished however (DO wins, Wheel destroyed, no more Pattern), then it doesn't really matter what the Pattern would have looked like.

This is why I was disapointed when it was implied that all prophecy works this way in WoT. It would have been awesome if some prophecy was actually based on reading the future, or possible futures, rather than reading the Pattern.

In otherwords, if the Wheel was sentient, the Pattern would be the Wheel's intent. There might be many ways in which that intent might be circumvented. Total annialation of everything just being one :)
Alice Arneson
49. Wetlandernw
I find it very sad, and possibly just a tad odd, that Rand thinks he’s doing such a good job of making himself hard and emotionless. Yet he frequently displays frustration and anger, both very nearly unchecked, sometimes at such small things as having his thoughts interrupted when he didn’t expect it. And when someone has the gall to argue with him or try to find a safe place to meet him? “Kill ‘em all! I don’t need allies anyway!” He’s managed to squish down any positive reactions like laughter, joy, compassion, or the like, but he’s still pretty free with rage, bitterness, despair and frustration. And he doesn’t even seem to notice.

matthew1215 @35 – Obviously, our sympathies more naturally lie with the Emonds Fielders, because we’ve been with them since book one. If you look at it from a different perspective, though, Cadsuane has nearly 300 years of training, adventure, research, study, and general experience, while Nynaeve has a year or so of training, a severe block that has only been broken for a few months, wildly fluctuating emotions, and loyalty to Rand-the-person more than Rand-the-Dragon.

If I were in Nynaeve’s shoes, I would feel just like you do, and like she did right up until she realized that she had to take responsibility for her own actions, not someone else’s. (Specifically, she had to give the information she had to the one who needed it, whether she got anything in return or not.) On the other hand, if I were Cadsuane, I’d need a little more proof than I’d seen so far of Nynaeve’s good sense, before I let her in on something that critical. Just because she can Heal just about anything and came from Rand’s home village, that’s not enough to include her in the desperate plans being put together to try to pull Rand back from the plunge that awaits him at the bottom of this horrible slippery slope he’s on. There’s a short bit (not worth quoting in the recap, but relevant here) about Nynaeve and Cadsuane:
During the past week, Nynaeve had pressed Cadsuane for more information, but had failed. “Perform this task well, child,” Cadsuane had said, “and perhaps we shall give you more responsibility in the future. You’ve proven yourself willful at times, and we can’t have that.”
Nynaeve actually did try to insist that Cadsuane tell her what was going on before she’d share her information, and got a mild rebuke for it. When she retold the bit about Rand and the Borderlanders, and then heard the conversation about the possibility of the Pattern being destroyed, she realized that not only did Rand desperately need to change for the sake of them all, but she had no idea what to do about it other than to trust Cadsuane. Being a rather intelligent girl, if sometimes willful, she did the best thing she could see to do. She gave Cadsuane Perrin’s location (or what she knew of it); Cadsuane recognized it immediately, and they were off to find Tam.

birgit @36 – Not having been involved in the Schrodinger/Heisenberg conversation, I can’t speak for anyone else; the lack-of-umlaut was just too good to pass up.
50. Arturus
Does anyone know what the odd smell Hurin noticed was? Nobody above has mentioned it yet.

Was that the scent of the True Power from Rand?
Jay Dauro
51. J.Dauro
Rancho Unicorno @16

I think I have to disagree on a couple of points. Nyneave has often tried to guide Rand. I would say that is a big part of her arc, learning to be at his side. Which she does acheive at times before now, and really comes into in TOM.

And as is pointed out in TOM, it is not just a Malkiere thing. All of the Borderlands have sworn to help.
“Our ancestors swore an oath,” the young man said. “An oath to protect, to defend. That oath is stronger than blood, Lord Mandragoran. It is stronger than will or choice."
Towers of Midnight - 42

Master Althor.

Nyneave did not set Lan on this path. He brought it up, and was asking her to let him go, when she proposed taking him (and told a typical AS "truth".) But he was planning to leave before she let him go. Hell, he would have gone in New Spring if Moiraine hadn't convinced him to become her warder.

hihosilver @28

All of the prophecy type stuff can be found at www.encyclopaedia-wot.org, on the Prophecies page. Great reference, thanks to Master Quillin Tasil (who is based on Bob Klotz, the keeper of the Encyclopedia)

travyl @33

Bingo, I agree. I believe he has brought the Rulers (and a small force) with him to Merrilor, and sent the balance to assist Lan. Because the Borderlands have already sworn to fight.

matthew1215 @35

Except that Cadsuane is right about one thing. The only way to break Rand out of his descent is to confront him with Tam. It may not have worked the way she wanted or expected, but no one else had any clue. If Nyneave says nope, game over.

Cadsuane has saved Rand's bacon more times than anyone else. Without her, Rand never makes it this far.

Zexxes @39

But his plan here is not to save everyone, in fact, it is to save almost no one. He will kill the Dark One by allowng the Shadow to break through and kill everyone else, while he heads to Shayol Ghul.

Arturus @50

I always thought it was Rand that caused the smell. He has done more violence now than almost anything Hurin has encountered before.
Rob Munnelly
52. RobMRobM
@50. Yes, TP smells after it is used. Don't even need Hurin for that.

Jeff Schweer
53. JeffS.
Not so much the scent of the true power but smell of the evil slope that Rand is on it seems to me. When we first met Hurin, he could smell murder, evil, etc, etc. Now he smells something that combines all that and more.Dark Rand is dark and smells of Shayol Ghul
Thomas Keith
54. insectoid
Arturus @50:
Was that the scent of the True Power from Rand?
More than likely; though it could also be the Dark One's increasing influence on the world. (Maybe both, as they amount to the same thing...) That TP leakage is some scary stuff.

55. alreadymadwithcadsplan
Caveatar @42
That's a bit extreme. Rand was most likely just thinking along Lan achieving martyrdom. Thus a viable rallying cry for his armies.

Wetlandernw @49
Cadsuane's definition of being willful is having a will outside of her own. Let's face it. Despite all her accolades and supposed good sense she's a bully and a manipulator and Tam calls her out on it in the end. Yes she has the plan. But her plan can go to Shayol Ghul without the help and trust of others. That's one of Cadsuane's failings. She's been so right for so long she can no longer conceive that her way is wrong.

Say she needs Nynaeve to prove herself. Look at it from Nynaeve's side. What has Cadsuane done to prove herself? Try to rein in Rand? That was a major fail.

Forcing Nynaeve to act without information was a cheap attempt to regain the control she lost when Rand cast her out. It essentially forced Nynaeve to redefine her loyalties and priorities whether to Cadsuane or to Rand. And was it absolutely necessary? Did getting that single piece of information absolutely necessitate questioning Nynaeve's prerogative like that?

It did not.

Nynaeve could still have gotten the information she needed. Maybe know better what questions to ask for. Hoarding information and secrets never pans out in the series and Cadsuane despite her experience perpetuates the mistake.

RobMRobM @52

On Travelling:
I always related it to the oft-repeated analogy of bending the Pattern. In bending the pattern and pulling two sides together, the channeler essentially pulls the destination towards his/her location. In order to do this properly he/she must be anchored and to do that, he/she must know his location very well.

If you don't know your location, the Pattern doesn't bend all the way and what you get is Skimming.

On Lan:
Lan knew that too much attention was being paid to the South rather than the Borderlands. That's why he wanted to go there. Because Rand could not. Lan hoped to shame the Borderlanders into resuming their posts. RAnd may or may not know all this, but he also cannot abandon long term plans just to save Lan. Lan would not have expected him to, otherwise Lan would just have asked RAnd.

Jay Dauro
56. J.Dauro
alreadymadwithcadsplan @55

What has Cadsuane done? Hmm, let's see. How about preventing the Forsaken from killing Rand and Nyneave while they cleansed Saiden? Or rescuing him from the dungeons of Far Madding? Or getting him out of the bubble of evil after Fain had slashed him? Or preventing him from renouncing any of the treaties his Aes Sedai have negotiated?

Or saving Nyneave from being captured in Far Madding? Or saving Lan in Far Madding? Or teaching Nyneave how to use her Ter'angreal?

And what has Nyneave shown her? Stupidity in channeling inside Far Madding. Lack of control in wanting to attack in trying to rescue Lan there. Nyneave has many times shown immaturity (dangerous word that) instead of control.

Now, I do think highly of Nyneave, and I have wanted to slap Cadsuane often. But Cadsuane usually treats you as you act, act like a spoiled child, you will get treated like one. And that's sometimes the best that can be done for you.

As I said, so far, without
57. alreadymadwithcads
Regardless. This latest stunt forced Nynaeve to evaluate her plan on Cadsuane's merits rather than on the plan's own merits. A foolish attempt to force others to take her on trust alone when they should not have had the time to play power games.
Terry McNamee
58. macster
"and seriously, what the hell with that whole thing, I am still just flabbergasted, but more on that at the proper time"

I got the impression the Borderlanders believed, based on what their prophecy said, that they were testing his restraint. Basically, proving whether he had the (heh heh) Aes Sedai calm to not blow up in their face at this physical assault. It may also be that being Borderlanders, and knowing Rand had absorbed Borderlander honor via Lan, Ingtar, and Hurin, they may have felt it was the honorable thing to do to face such punishment without scorn or retaliation, so they were testing to see if he still had such honor. Or they were just, in an odd form of common sense, thinking that they wouldn't trust the Dragon to lead them in the Last Battle unless they knew he could control his temper and not crack under pressure.

"I’m prepared to state that that just might be the understatement of the Third Age." When you hit the nail on the head, Leigh, you really hit the nail on the head.

"But it’s not so much the sentiment itself, it’s the callousness of the way he says it."

Exactly. As Matthew1215 points out, as well as Zexxes and MasterAlThor, this is yet another example of where we can logically understand, rationalize, and defend what Rand does--he's absolutely right, he can't afford to focus on just one person or place, and he should not let the Shadow dictate where the battle will be--but we cannot possibly condone how he acts and feels or ultimately why he does it. It's a credit to Team Jordan that this is so well written--it really feels like a perfect example of how Jumping Off the Slippery Slope works. Everything Rand does seems perfectly justified at the time, or seems to be, or has a reason behind it, or makes sense on some level, so that like him we are fooled and led into believing this is the right course...until by the time we reach something so horrific it cannot possibly be allowed, we understand exactly how and why Rand got there, and are horrified ourselves at how close we came to the same brink.

Poor Hurin indeed. We can understand why Rand was wary, even aside from the Borderlanders being out of position and his state of mind, because Rand knows that people can be disguised via the Mirror of Mists. In fact many people have thought the Borderlanders were out of position due to the manipulations of the Forsaken, with Demandred (of course) being the one manipulating them. (This isn't even completely dismissed as of ToM, since he could still be hiding with them somewhere, and claims to have armies ready...) I wouldn't put it past Demandred at all to disguise himself as a close friend of Rand's to get close to him and betray him. But again, it's not Rand's actions that are the problem, it's the intent and mindset with which they are chosen and carried out.

"how indignant I’m going to be over the Monarch Bitchslapping Incident of ToM (and how mad I got at Cadsuane for doing it, too)" I can only assume, Leigh, that you were comparing the ToM incident with Cadsuane's slap in ACOS, since she certainly had nothing to do with what the Borderlanders did; in fact she was as shocked and appalled as Min, but it was Rand who told them to stay back and let it continue.

Whatever it is Corele failed at when not taking the unmaking of reality into account, I think it's clear that she believed in determinism, or more like predestination before Min explained it--that she thought prophecy had to come true no matter what, so if prophecies existed for after the Last Battle, that meant it was predetermined the Light would win. As TheNinthHorse already demonstrated, a valid argument based on a faulty premise.

To be fair to Corele though, who would want to consider the possibility that prophecy itself wasn't reliable, and that all of reality really could be undone? Also, she isn't a White; despite what Alanna said back in TDR about all Aes Sedai "doing some of it all" I really doubt many outside the White use logic, at least not to the extent needed to instantly recognize the failure of it here. Certainly not a Yellow like her. So her not getting this isn't necessarily a sign of stupidity, or her being made to look bad compared to Min.

I knew as soon as Cadsuane said it was someone with Perrin who was important that it had to be Tam. A) Who else would be able to get through to Rand? B) Foreshadowing, Rand had thought back in ACOS when he took the Ogier to the Two Rivers (and at other places too) that he was purposefully avoiding Tam, and we know in general he's been distancing himself from people he cares about to keep the Shadow away from them (It's Not You, It's My Enemies, textbook case) and C) We knew as of KOD that Tam had joined Perrin.

@8 Loialson: So agreed about Min. I'd say I don't get how people can dislike her, but it seems that thanks to life experiences and Your Mileage May Vary, anyone can be interpreted differently by anyone, and that's that.

@13 matthew1215: You may well be right, but I am wondering how you conclude the bitchslap thing was set up by the Shadow. It's certainly true that the event itself, let alone when it happens in the narrative, is certainly advantageous to the Shadow, but that doesn't mean it necessarily planned it or caused it to happen. Are you suggesting the Aes Sedai who made the Foretelling was Black? Or was the Foretelling just reading a future moment in the Pattern which the Shadow had arranged? It seems to me that the Foretelling was accurate, that it was indeed critical to know Rand had all of Lews Therin's memories before Tarmon Gai'don so that he could be trusted to lead and win, but the Borderlanders (like everyone else in this series) misinterpreted, took it too literally, and nearly destroyed reality by the timing and nature of their actions.

@14 WouldBeBrownAjah: I can't help thinking Hawkwing's comment to Hurin in TGH had to be foreshadowing. It'd be a shame if he thought Hurin had the makings of a Hero and it never amounted to anything.

@15 HeWhoComesWithTheNoon: Haven't seen you in a while! And totally agreed, the Borderlanders screwed up big-time here. I think your comment was actually stated in-series by Rand, that the one group he thought he wouldn't have to worry about to stay on guard, keep their oaths, and be loyal was instead off gallivanting about the continent. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.

@16 RanchoUnicorno re: Lan: That's one of the few ways in which I dislike him, that he keeps being so focused on his oath and the need to avenge Malkier and stop the Shadow that he doesn't care for Rand or the rest of the world or anything. As MasterAlThor pointed out, the whole reason he's gone is because he badgered Nynaeve about it until she felt she had no choice but to let him go and do his duty. What, he couldn't possibly wait until Rand had all the nations in line, peace declared (trying to parley with the Seanchan was "wasting time"??), and everyone ready to fight before haring off to the Blight? He didn't think it was important to keep the Seanchan from invading at their backs via Arad Doman, or get the Borderlanders where they were supposed to be? It seems he has the same failure Zexxes points out: everyone wants Rand to focus on their own personal problems and forgets he has to look out for the whole world.

I like Lan; I understand why he feels as he does about Malkier and the Blight; but as is usual for WOT, that doesn't stop him from making a stupid, ridiculous choice that, no matter how noble and brave his ride across the Borderlands is, could still very well end in his death, and for no good reason. Moiraine herself tried to prevent this by making him her Warder; if he does die, we can only hope that the way in which Nynaeve arranged it at least allows it to mean something this time. Basically, I'm in agreement with forkroot @30 and J.Dauro @51.

@17 NotInventedHere: Interesting theory. I think it's right. Of course it was Moridin who said the idea of killing the Dark One was stupid and dangerous, and we can't really trust anything he says--plus if killing the Dark One unraveled the Pattern and destroyed existence, wouldn't Moridin of the Despair Event Horizon have actually wanted that to happen, and encouraged it? That said, your explanation does feel right, particularly with Zen Rand now only speaking of facing instead of destroying him.

@21 MasterAlThor: In Nynaeve's defense, Lan was going to ride off no matter what she did; all she did was arrange it so it would take longer and he'd have men at his side, so that there was more chance he could be stopped from reaching the Blight or that he'd survive if he did make it there. The fact she's mad at Rand for not helping is not her blaming him for Lan being there in the first place (she knows very well she put him there and also that it was his will to go), it's blaming him for not caring for his friend and allowing Randland to be destroyed due to his fixated mindset. She's mad at Lan for putting her in this position in the first place, and at herself for giving in to his vendetta (which of course she won't admit), but she's mad at Rand for not seeing the danger in his line of thinking.

Also, my condolences.

@26 Tektonica: Couldn't agree more on Nynaeve, and Hurin scenting death around Rand freaked me out; I was definitely put in mind of what he smelled around Fain.

As for the Borderlanders, assuming Demandred or some other Forsaken didn't help manipulate them into taking all their armies, I see two explanations. One, we know Tenobia was mad at Bashere for joining Rand, so I can see her taking her army along; the others presumably brought theirs too as a show of strength and support for her, and because they thought they might need to fight Rand's forces if matters went pear-shaped. Considering Tenobia just went through a similar mess with Taim and his forces, and unlike Paitar and Easar she had nothing to prove to her Rand wasn't just another false Dragon...

Two, I still find it highly suspicious that thirteen Aes Sedai just happened to meet up with the Borderlanders and each other. Even assuming that the prophecy itself wasn't a Shadow plot, and that no Forsaken (Demandred) is involved, I could easily see some or all of those Aes Sedai being Black and manipulating the Borderlanders into leaving, with their armies, to completely screw up the Light's chances--we already saw Bashere's own Darkfriend cousin doing the same thing on a smaller scale in Maradon. The fact Cadsuane didn't know them all, that she was supposed to meet with them, but it happened off-screen and we still don't know who they are, is very suspicious to me.

@32 Wetlander, 36 birgit: An additional possibility is the footer prophecy at the end of this book. It comes from the Essanik Cycle, true, but considering what it states is both accurate to events and has nothing to do with the Seanchan, I don't see why Ishamael would or could have changed the prophecies to include it. Which means there's likely a comparable passage in the Karaethon Cycle.

@33 travyl: Good idea. However, in the epilogue of ToM, when Rand has his weird dream about Cyndane, he notes that his body is sleeping beside Min among the Borderlander armies on the Field of Merrilor. Of course this doesn't preclude him still sending them to Tarwin's Gap, especially since we have no idea when that scene happens in relation to Lan's last one in the book, but it does suggest logistics and timing will be rather tight. And J.Dauro's idea @51 makes sense too.

@39 Zexxes: Wonderful analogy. Between you and anthonypero's map and jigsaw puzzle analogies, it looks like the philosophizing is already beginning!

@41 RobM: I don't agree either, even though at first I too thought the viewing meant Lan's past, because of Jordan's assertion that all viewings are of the future. So this one would be Lan's future child, while Thom being viewed with a man tossing fire and the White Tower was foreshadowing his future association with Moiraine and the Supergirls and Mat (with Aludra's fireworks). Or even Rand, for all we know.

@49 Wetlander: I am fairly sure Rand's constant belief that he is doing well at controlling or not feeling his emotions, when he is quite obviously going darker and losing control of the negative ones, is meant to be dramatic irony which makes the reader more and more concerned for, and disturbed by, him.

@50 Arturus: We can debate whether it was the True Power, the dark Fisher King effect, dark ta'veren, or Rand's own soul, but it's very clear it's Rand himself Hurin was smelling.

@51 J.Dauro: That's exactly Zexxes's point. Rand should be caring about everyone and helping them all, not just individual cities or people, so Lan making such demands of him isn't right...but he isn't, and that is how we know Rand's good intentions are being twisted and subverted and that he needs to be saved from this downward spiral, which is why it's right for Nynaeve to call him on this. If he was doing things which actually helped save everyone, instead of abandoning them all, then she really wouldn't have a leg to stand on in Rand placing them all over Lan--but if he were doing such a thing, he wouldn't be in the headspace to sacrifice Lan, so it would be moot.

@52 RobM: LOL!!!

@55 alreadymad: Another great analogy. And I had forgotten, or didn't think about, Lan trying to shame the Borderlanders into acting with his actions. I still think he unfairly discounted what Rand was doing, and forgot there was more to the world than just the Borderlands and Blight, but I was being a little too hard on him.

And while the brewing brouhaha (see what I did there?) over Cadsuane will be fun to watch, let me mention I enjoyed Nynaeve's moment thinking about the abandoned crossroads and what it meant about the turning of the Wheel. We get a nostalgic reference to martyr Verin and her Brown's knowledge, and a callback to the fall of places like Hardan that was mentioned back in TGH when we first met Hurin. Very well done.
j p
59. sps49
Cadsuane. Pfft.

Sure, she has usefully heroic moments. It's Good Guys versus Eeeevil. Evereybody has Moments of Awesome. She is still pigheadedly wrong.

Her big aim is good, but she was so annoying that Rand banished her. Instead of trying to modify her behavior, she tries to manipulate others to continue her prior ways.

Her shit worked by accident- not because of her astounding wisdom or competence.
60. Halcyal
Corele fails at "Axiomatic Set Theory".
William Fettes
61. Wolfmage

Yeah, I said above that I won't quibble too much on methods regarding the Borderlanders. But it's still frustrating that they elected to take so many of their fighting men to confront Rand, undermining their history-spanning vigilance against the Shadow. Though I can see why having an army might seem like a welcome contingency to have at your back when you need to confront a major god-like power and you're fundamentally uncertain about their sanity and goodness.

I must say I do find Tenobia's childish Saldean temperament to be particularly aggravating.

Macster@ 58

No doubt a slippery slope can work like that, and it may be that what you said is exactly what the authors and Team Jordan intended.
Leigh has certainly indicated she sees these moments as more or less part of a seamless transition of Rand.

However, personally, I don't think that's necessarily apparent or true from the text. The three scenes can just as easily be read as three separate inflection points in the continuum of Rand's dark journey. That is, each scene evokes some essential aspects of Rand's problematic head-space, including some mutual ones no doubt, but they are more or less independent; importantly, they don’t necessarily impart momentum on each other, or follow a kind of self-reinforcing logic such that you could call it a slide down a slippery slope. For that reason, I think the phrase isn't exactly apt.
Leigh Butler
63. leighdb
Halcyal @ 60:
Corele fails at "Axiomatic Set Theory".
...wow, the Wikipedia entry on that is the single most unhelpful "explanation" ever. Would you care to expand on that for the clueless, e.g., me?
Paul Long
64. Caveatar
Check the forums for the thread addressed to you.
When you can.
All respects Leigh, Proud to follow you in the thread.
Original and # 63

Zexxes, I have no complaint.
I earlier received a 'gentle nudge' from a proper judge.
No 'clout' was needed and the nudge I heeded.
Visit the Forums instead if you will.
63. leighdb

Hey Leigh, I understand it to a degree. But.... I am quite rusty with it as I haven't had a need for such in a looooooong while. Suffice it to say it doesn't lend well to "Layman's terms" at all. I know for me it would be difficult to explain and the short end of it all that the Wiki lends, is as vague as can be and would require you to click on link after link after link after....Ahhhhhhhh!

Nawwwww... not fun reading material lemme just say!

But in as short and sweet a way as possible, I will say this:

Its all about how one happening relates to another and how one could in theory link every occurance together eventually, if you found enough common denominaters. We're not talking 6 degrees stuff, it looks a lot more complicated than that when you see it written down, but its actually not too difficult, once you know what all the sets represent. In this instance, Corele simply didn't follow all possibilities to their ends. Ruling out the paradox's as you go, you'd quickly find the "End of Line" (great song-Daft Punk) that Min came to. Corele was either to lazy or really stupid, not to come to the right conclusion. I'm thinking the former as I think we all came to the same conclusion before the words even got out of Min's mouth.

Thomas Keith
66. insectoid
Halcyal @60: I second Leigh's confusion... I looked that same page up, looked at it for 15 seconds, and said "Whaaaaat?" I didn't read any longer than that, way too deep for me!

Z @65: LOL at the Tron reference. Annnnd... I still don't get it. I think I'm going to stick with mityorkie's suggestion @3, "thinking outside the box".

Terry McNamee
67. macster
@Wolfmage: I see your point...but I wasn't trying to say that is how jumping off the slippery slope always works, just that the way in which Rand's character arc is being written, by having one bad decision be followed by another, with earlier ones seeming justifiable but later ones not, seems to suggest an illustration of the principle. It isn't that each decision is related to or follows from the previous, but that the 'slippery slope' Rand is on is one which leads to making worse decisions or adopting worse mindsets when making them.

You're right, they aren't directly connected (though I would contend that being able to destroy a bunch of innocent people to save them from mind rape, abandoning a bunch of innocent people to starve because you can't do anything for them, and almost killing a bunch of innocent people just because they annoyed you by how and where they chose to meet with you, does follow a chain of related issues and commonalities, as you yourself admit). However, I still think that there is a connection aside from the "harming innocents" angle--while only the first two have to do with expediency, what can be justified as an act of war, or placing the needs of the many over those of the few, all three show what is wrong with Rand's overall moral bankruptcy. The fact Rand can do, or almost do, these things and more importantly feel no remorse or regret, or utterly dismiss it as irrelevant and unimportant even if he does feel it, tells us something about his character. The decisions themselves may not be connected, or lead into each other, but the fact Rand is getting progressively darker and more corrupt as he goes along is what enables him to make them, and so callously. That is the slope he's on...not one of illogic, but one of self-destruction and inhumanity.
Paul Long
68. Caveatar
@67 Macster
However, I still think that there is a connection aside from the "harming innocents" angle

I do also. Rand did not go to Natrim's barrow to save the innocent
mindslaves of Graendal. He went to KILL GRAENDAL. He had no
thought for those people at all except to justify his use of balefire
to accomplish his personal goals even at risk to the Pattern.
Darker and Darker, said Alice, ..
Your opinion on my opinion please.

69. Hawkido
Traveling - Distance vector calculation. you cannot plot your vector unless you know where you are nor your distance, you still need to know your destination as well as your origin. The "Learning" your location is a little bogus.. you would think a map would help.

Skimming - is more like shooting a bullet, just kinda need to know where you want it to land, bu tthere can be no guarantee of destination. kinda like pulling the destination to you and thus not a complete instant and the path of least resistance will deviate your destination... you open a portal step in (create a warp bubble) and pull your destination to you then step out in the area to wanted to be in be not exactly (akin to warp bubble tech).

Literary mechanic for skipping the boring parts - reminds me of an episode of Dr. Who (Vincent and the Doctor, Series 5), Where the Doctor must await for an event in normal, real time. Wherein the Doctor is prompted to state:
"Is this how time normally passes? Really slowly. In the right order."
69. Hawkido

"Is this how time normally passes? Really slowly. In the right order."

Imagine that! *chuckle* likeylikey!

Alice Arneson
71. Wetlandernw
J. Dauro @56 – Well said. Cadsuane has repeatedly shown (in front of Nynaeve) courage, insight, resourcefulness, and a willingness to take extreme measures on Rand’s behalf. There was a funny little interchange, when Nynaeve was being stubborn about telling – something on the order of “I won’t tell you until you tell me. I have to know that my helping you won’t hurt Rand.” Cadsaune’s response was on the lines of “You seriously think I’d want to hurt him?” (subtext: after all I’ve done and risked to help him, why under the Light would I be doing something to hurt him now?)

I love Nynaeve, don’t get me wrong, but her reaction to Cadsuane’s praise shows that her subconscious knows what her stubborn conscious mind has refused to admit: that Cadsuane is usually right about people, and gives the praise or censure that is due their behavior. Not too many people like it when they get the censure side of things, but they usually deserve it. Obviously she’s not always 100% correct about their motivations or even their abilities – who can be, without the ability to get inside their heads? – but actions say a lot, and someone who cannot master themselves can’t be trusted with anything bigger. Not when the fate of the world is at stake.

sps49 @59 – Um, no. Rand did not banish Cadsuane for being annoying; he banished her because her complicated wards weren't enough to keep Shaidar Haran (via Elza) away from the Domination Band she was studying. Even he admitted within a couple of chapters that it had been “a poor move” to have done so.
72. al'Kohol
I share in the understanding that the weird borderlander prophecy is a last-minute check on Rand's sanity. The implication is that if Rand is too dark, he needs to be killed. It follows, then, that dead Rand is preferable to Dark Rand.

Somewhere in the books, Ish/Moridin reflects on the fisher, and how the only way to win was to get him on your side. It seems this is indeed a perfect analogy for Randland theology/cosmology, but I confess that I don't "get it." So, if the DO kills Rand, and trolloc armies overrun the entirety of Randland, he still hasn't "won?" Is it possible that there are entire Ages under the Dark One's thumb, just waiting for the calendar to turn and the Dragon to be born again to take another crack at it?

Given the nature of the pattern, Ages repeat; could we have a consistently repeating Age where the Dark One rules everything, until the Dragon comes back and puts him in his place? Seems plausible, but doesn't really pass the smell test.

Is the lesson, then, that only the Dragon can unmake the pattern?
Jonathan Levy
73. JonathanLevy
My condolences as well.

Are German names so difficult to spell?
Umm.... yes?

50. Arturus
and 52.RobMRobM and 53.JeffS and 54.insectoid

Pretty sure it was Rand. Whether it was a whiff of the TP, the scent of having killed so many people at Natrim's Barrow, or a reflection of Rand's Fisher-King-Effect status, I couldn't say.

55. alreadymadwithcadsplan
Cadsuane's definition of being willful is having a will outside of her own.
So true! So true!
But Cadsuane usually treats you as you act
Cadsuane also treats you the way she decided that you will act, before she's ever met you. For example, the first time she met Rand she treated him like a five-year-old who might or might not be ready for kindergarten.

Rand did not banish Cadsuane for being annoying; he banished her because her complicated wards weren't enough to keep Shaidar Haran (via Elza) away from the Domination Band she was studying
I think Rand banished Cadsuane because she was setting boundaries to his behavior, and after the Last that Could be Done he decided that he would no longer tolerate any boundaries to his behavior. Also, sheer vengefulness. His claim that he is punishing her for a failure is just an excuse.
Jonathan Levy
74. JonathanLevy
72. al'Kohol
I share in the understanding that the weird borderlander prophecy is a last-minute check on Rand's sanity. The implication is that if Rand is too dark, he needs to be killed.
My understanding is that if Rand is too dark, then all is lost and it is better to provoke him into destroying the world quickly, rather than enduring a drawn-out destruction.
Terry McNamee
75. macster
@68 Caveatar: Very good point, I agree.

@72 al'Kohol: I'm not sure myself. The only thing I can conclude is that if Rand dies, the Dark One still can't win even if his Trollocs overrun the land because to win he has to break the Wheel and remake the Pattern, and he can't do that unless he is fully free. He needs humanity for that; and in the War of Power, the Forsaken were "trying" to make a move that would fully break him free but we don't know what it was or if it would have succeeded. It's possible that the only one who can fully break him free is the Dragon, either because of how much power he has or because he's the Creator's champion, and that's why killing him (and then having an age of darkness until he is reborn and seals the Bore again) is preferable to letting him live, and why turning him is so important. See also the Fisher King connection to the land--it seems likely that if Rand hadn't destroyed the world, but also hadn't had his moment on Dragonmount and so had stayed dark, eventually his "warp in the air"/negative ta'veren effect would have so destabilized the Pattern the Dark One could have broken free without the seals having to be broken.
Paul Long
76. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
77. AwesomeRedFontGuest
I really liked Rand in this book. He was logical, and somewhat relateable. Maybe he was a little dark, but ya can't really blame the guy. And he DIDN'T kill all the people here, so that was a plus.

It would totally be just like the shadow to send and assassin disguised as Hurin, who we haven't been keeping tabs on for 9.5 books, out to kill him. Aside from the greeting, he might have been a little rude, but Hurin is kind of allied with assholes, so... if he hadn't been mean to him, he might have told all the assholes, and they might have seen it as a weak point or soemthing. It's also not too hard to see the logic in sith-Rand's destroy the universe act in VoG, but we'll get to that I guess.
78. TinaA

You and your family will be in my prayers.

~re-boot Lurk mode~
Birgit F
79. birgit
Two, I still find it highly suspicious that thirteen Aes Sedai just happened to meet up with the Borderlanders and each other.

Thirteen is the traditional number for gentling. It makes sense to have them around when they might have to deal with a channeler who is out of control and must be put down.

Hurin smells violence. Rand recently balefired NB (does abandoning BE to starve count as killing?). It's not surprising that he smells something around Rand.
Kurt Lorey
80. Shimrod
Perhaps Min's viewings could be better interpreted from mathematics or physics rather than logic or philosophy? The pattern exists, until it doesn't (the goal of the DO). In the same way, Min's viewings (of the future Pattern) always come true, until they don't (because there is no longer a Pattern). Not really a paradox at all. The Pattern is, or it isn't. It's a boolean state of existence.
81. The Grey Drape
I think the reason why Rand isn't to try killing the DO is a bit like cuendillar - attacking it makes it stronger; trying to kill the DO makes it stronger. Much like Herakles only succeeded in killing the giant Antaeus, a son of Mother Earth, by keeping him off the surface of the earth.

So when he calms down, he has a chance. Fuffering succotash! being Dark Rand he doesn't.
Rob Munnelly
82. RobMRobM
@ 81 - I always interpreted that as "thuffering thuccotash" myself."
Terry McNamee
83. macster
@79 birgit: True, but how did there randomly happen to be that many Aes Sedai with each of the Borderland rulers or in the group that was traveling by itself? It smells of the 'randomness' of the 13 in Liandrin's coven--a pattern where there is no pattern, or vice versa. For there to be 13 in that area, someone would have to have carefully planned, sent them, and then told them to all travel and meet up 'by chance' so as to deal with Taim/Rand. At the time this all happened, the Tower was busy dealing with the news about Taim's escape, then Rand taking Callandor. So either the 13 were part of the group Siuan sent to recapture Taim...or they were sent by Alviarin as part of Liandrin's intent to free him. And even if it's the former, there's still a good chance some of them might be Black and have maneuvered the Borderlanders out of position. Any Aes Sedai who haven't gotten resworn on the Oath Rod are suspect at this point (Annoura, Seonid, and Masuri certainly qualify), and the fact we still don't know who they are after all this time or what happened when Cadsuane met with them...
Paul Long
84. Caveatar
Deleted Cav
85. Halcyal
leighdb @ 63 (et al.):

Er... yah... sorry about that. Discrete mathematics, formal logic and their various kith and kin aren't always the friendliest creatures in the world (in the euphemistic sense of being like oil to the cerebral water of most people's minds, my own not necessarily withstanding). The Wikipedia entries on those subjects don't tend to be very well adapted to fostering a broader understanding amongst the general populous either, to put it mildly. (If you're feeling up to it, and I would entirely understand it if you weren't, you can try "Naive Set Theory" for a slightly more tractable article that more or less covers the same thing in a basic sense.)

That being said, the easiest thing that I can do is direct you to mityorkie @ 3. That really does pretty much characterize the whole concept in a winsomely off-the-cuff sort of way.

For slightly more elaboration, however, I'll try to give a generalized explanation (and I'll admit right off that I am very demonstrably not an expert in the subject, so take what follows as you will).

Basically the various branches and iterations of Set Theory (and Classification theory, etc.) concern themselves with, well, things being categorically parts of set, or classes, or orders, and how that applies to various workings within the spheres of mathematics and logic. To illustrate some of that in simple terms, the numbers 1, 2, 3, etc. would be elements of the "set/class/order" {numbers}, and a duck would be an element of the "sets" Birds, and Animals, and Things That Exist, and so on.

So, stirring in a light spicing of ontology and argumentative logic, one of Corele's basic failings in this instance would be that she doesn't consider the fact that Min's viewings are a consequence of the "future" weaves of the pattern (along with the influences of some Pattern Mystic Mojo), which are a Set of The Pattern/Reality, which has its continued existance predicated on The Dark One not destroying it, which is predicated on The Dark One not winning The Last Battle, which is predicated on The Light Side winning The Last Battle. In other words, Min's Viewings, which assert positive happenings after The Last Battle (which require The Light Side to win The Last Battle, and thus assert said victory) become invalidated (or, at least, no longer form part of a necessarily true argument) if the over-arcing "Set" of The Pattern (which contains all future events, which underpin Viewings) is rendered "not" by The Dark One's Victory.

Hopefully that makes what was admittedly a fairly obscure (if still somewhat accurate) comment slightly less esoteric, eclectic and possibly dyspeptic.
Valentin M
86. ValMar
MAT, my condolences as well.

I had forgotten how close Rand came to striking at the Borderlanders. Now that would have been truly shocking, far more than anything he has done so far.
Ian B
87. Greyfalconway
Did anyone notice how Min, Aviendah and Elayne are who Rand would be with if the pattern hadn't screwed with things and made him the Dragon Reborn? Like if his mother had stayed in the waste he would've grown up there and met Avi and fallen in love naturally and been together forever, if his mom had stayed in caemlyn he would've grown up there all courtly and met Elayne and fallen in love and been together forever, and if everything happened the way it did in the books and he ended up in emonds field but the pattern didn't need the dragon after all, he'd have met Min from the next town over and fallen in love and been together forever. So the whole him having three ladies thing is less a ridiculous scenario and really the pattern trying to make things right as best it can for him during this time of tarmon gaidon
Teresa Nielsen Hayden
88. tnh
Dear Zexxes:

When you find yourself making comparisons to puke and diarrhea, you may want to take it as a sign that you should stop and reconsider how you're expressing yourself.
89. Tom R.
If you want to classify Corele's reasoning error, I think it is an example of begging the question founded on a category error. The category error is the confusion over the exact nature of Min's talent pointed out up-thread -- it's a reading of the Pattern, not a true seeing of the future. Once that error is in place, Corele is implicitly assuming what she's trying to prove (she sees the future, so we must have won), which begs the question.
90. MasterAlThor
Thanks to all who have posted about my loss. Thank you for your thoughs and thank you for your prayers.

My uncle was a wonderful man who served his country in Korea and continued to serve as a postman until his retirement. When I was young he would always try to put the fear of God in me by telling me that if I didn't listen to my grandmother he would cut me with his knife. Never once did I ever give him reason to pull it. I really don't know if he actually carried one, but then I wasn't going to tempt fate now was I.

Again thank you all for your time.

91. Freelancer
Poor Hurin. That is the worst part of it for me. Nothing else Rand has done to this point, nothing at all, is as clear a display of his supressed humanity as his treatment of Hurin, specifically after the sniffer validates his identity.
“I don’t know,” Hurin said. “The air... it smells like a lot of death, a lot of violence, only not. It’s darker. More terrible.” He shuddered visibly.
Yep, Hurin, Lord Rand needs a bath. Don't worry, he's going to get a shower of glory on Dragonmount, and that stink will be off of him.

Rand's following reaction, thinking to destroy the Borderlander contingent, is based on his long-standing expectation that, of all people, the Borderlanders would follow him properly, without the political trickery or commanded submission of places like Illian, Tear, and Cairhien. What he knows of the people along the Blight - from Lan, from his time in Shienar - is of a deeply engrained honor, and hatred of the shadow. People who live, with their families, on the verge of the long war, people who hold that line and protect the rest of the continent from the denizens of the Blight. People who do not fear the Dragon as a demonized fairy tale, but as the leader for the end of that long war. Surely they will rally to his Standard, without being bullied. Rand's disappointment, augmented by his damaged mental state (how many days since Semirhage tried to kill Min using Rand's hands?), his growing darkness, all coalesced in this case into an unfeeling desire to 'encourage' them to obey him.
“These are not slaves with their minds already burned away by Graendal. That is an entire city full of innocent people!”
A relative justification from Nynaeve, of all people. And absolutely accurate.

RE: Lan

To think that Rand doesn't care is just mind-numbingly misperceptive. Listen to Rand's words. The things he says to Nynaeve and Min before his attack on Natrin's Barrow. He knows how horrible are the things he is doing, and is planning to do. But he sees those things as the way to save the world in his position. He's not completely correct in that analysis, but he is doing what seems to lead to victory. He cares, still very deeply, but has chosen to suppress what would be the normal Rand's reaction to that caring. Aided by that little extra he's getting both from, and through, Moridin.

As has been said, Lan wasn't sent to the Gap by Rand, he chose there to do what he's been planning to do for most of three decades; die in a blaze of glory in his fight against the Blight, and the shadow. Rand accepts Lan's choice, and considers how that choice can be tactically advantageous. Callous? Absolutely. When a squadron commander sends his fighters where there are going to be enemy planes, surface-to-air missiles, and other assorted ground artillery, it's expected that not everyone is coming back. He sends them all the same, if it advances the chance of victory.

And Cadsuane? My problem with her is on full display here. It remains one of the primary lessons of the entire saga. She refuses to provide one tidbit of information to anyone unless it cannot be avoided. Watch:

"Nynaeve, I have determined that the best possible chance to snap Rand out of this dark, furious state into which he has pushed himself is for him to meet with Tam al'Thor. Help me find him, but Rand should not know, or he will avoid the meeting. I've learned that Tam is with Perrin's forces. If Rand knows how to find Perrin, then we can bring al'Thor."

But no, telling someone else how, or why, may just lead to them suggesting a different approach, or even simply disagreeing. That cannot be permitted, so you move them around by stealth, like pawns on a chessboard who cannot know why they are being pushed, and hope it doesn't all blow up in your face before you can bring a plan to fruition. Cadsuane has more experience than anyone alive, in maneuvering the waters of the Aes Sedai, the master maneuverers of the society, and her method is driven by that experience. But the people surrounding her here are not playing a Tower version of Daes Dae'mar, they are fighting for the survival of the world. They are all on the same side, and nobody has proven their trustworthiness more than Min and Nynaeve. Unclench, woman.
Chin Bawambi
93. bawambi
I propose that we explore Buddhist/Hindi concepts in philosophy from the Wheel of Time more often than western ones as we enter the end game of the re-read as it were. For example, rather than set theory let us look at the concept of the nature of the universe and breaking out of the cycle of samsara in which we exist. In that case then Corele while having a pleasant philosophy and a probable higher karmic rebirth would just fail on understanding the non-dualistic nature of reality. The reason she wouldn't get Min's axiom that the pattern has to exist is because it doesn't fit at all in her known worldview.
Roger Powell
94. forkroot
Only one way I can think of for Lan's death to serve Rand. It would free up the only person he can trust and who he needs. Nynaeve. If Lan were dead, she could focus on helping Rand with no distractions and Rand Needs That.
Now that Nynaeve is actually bonded to Lan though (admittedly later in the text), when he dies she'll have to deal with the Warder bond grief. That could compromise her effectiveness.

Oh boy. On the continuum of all Dark Rand's actions, IMO this was potentially by far the worst, even if he ultimately avoids falling off the precipice here.
No argument here. I was shocked at the time, and wondered how he had even approached that "precipice". With that said, I still believe that the heavily suppressed "core Rand" would have stopped before actually slaughtering the Borderlanders.

I've argued before, and will restate: Who really saved the world? I think it was Tam Al'Thor, Bran Al'vere, Abel Cauthon, and all the rest of the Edmonds Fielders that raised Rand and instilled in him values that will make a difference in the end. As I noted before, Rand/LTT says this himself in ToM on the way to his more successful meeting with the Borderlanders.

I believe in this dark moment of frustration and temptation, Nynaeve was still able to reach "core Rand" and prevent a tragedy. Consider though if Tigraine/Shaiel's child had not been taken by Tam. What if he had been raised by the Shaido? Bye-bye Borderlanders (and bye-bye Wheel when Dark Rand destroys the world.)
87. Greyfalconway

I get it! It's sort of like the pattern finally, after 63,230,789 cycles, has finally found the right combination of differing realities to put together in such a way that instead of being in a permanent state of unraveling, the pattern would be ridding itself of its nemesis. And as a consolation Rand gets not one not two but threeeee Betty's to play with.

I really wish I could be Rand....well.... with out the icky corrupting dark aura, and and and Moridin mwahahaing in my head, and LTT talking about suicide stuff, and ........Cadsuane......

You know.... I'd rather be Mat.

Yeah I'd rather be Mat.

96. Looking Glass
NotInventedHere @17: I’m not certain that the idea of killing the DO is, necessarily, wrong. Nor do I think it's necessarily right... but it’s at least possible for a story to have a cosmology where light requires darkness without requiring some specific external personification of Evil. The Dark One might be required in WoT cosmology if you accept that he is the only possible source of evil, but I’m not convinced that the text proves that's the case.

Killing him might indeed be a bad thing in this story (or even just unnecessary- more important to refute the devil’s influence than his existence?) I just don’t think it has to be a bad thing.

Nor do I think it’s a given that the pattern needs to stay anchored to the wheel forever. Even if you take the continuation of destiny as required, not all patterns are cyclical.

greater variation for each turning of the wheel. If that’s true and not just a fever dream of mine, then it suggests the cycle is already inherently unstable on some level.]

Anthonypero @48: ”There might be many ways in which that intent might be circumvented. Total annihilation of everything just being one :)”

That’s an interesting question- can the pattern be circumvented without being completely destroyed? For all the talk of balefire tearing it up, the pattern seems to have planned for Mat and Aviendha to get un-killed, for instance. Anybody have conclusive evidence for or against the Dark One’s own power (bubbles of evil or similar) being specifically accounted for by prophecy?

Really, I’m not sure the prophecies would work at all if the pattern couldn’t incorporate most of what even the Dark One himself could do. If, for instance, his breaking the unbreakable seals wasn’t expected, then the pattern couldn’t expect the last battle at all.

On the other hand, assuming it can predict everything less than total annihilation also introduces questions, such as whether the pattern could predict the conditions which led to that.

Wetlandernw @49: On Cadsuane: In isolation, I agree that she could have some decent reasons for keeping her plan secret… not the least of which is that there’s some value for her in determining whether Nynaeve can bring herself to help, given the situation.

In context with the rest of the series, the sheer amount of confusion, chaos, and carnage that otherwise decent people have caused just by not bothering to give other decent people a straight answer makes Cadsuane’s (as it turns out, unnecessary) keeping of secrets from Nynaeve really rub me the wrong way.

Arturus @50: I don’t think the smell really needs to be (or, given what we know at the moment, can be) approached more specifically than “Rand has all kinds of nastiness floating around him”. All of it- the true power, the corrupting of reality around him, the excessive balefire use, the shadow of future descent into Ishy-style nihilistic evil- is all kind of part and parcel of the same problem.

JDauro @51: However, I don’t think it’s the just the actual violence Rand has done that Hurin’s smelling. Hurin’s smelled huge battlefields, and Shadowspawn and whatnot, and seems pretty certain that it’s not plain old violence, but something a bit more esoteric.

Alreadymad @57: Cadsuane’s reasons for secrecy may (or may not) have been as self-centered as you suggest. Still, Nynaeve wasn’t evaluating the merits of “Cadsuane’s plan, versus other plans”, she was evaluating “a plan, any plan, versus doing nothing and letting everything go to ruin”. Since that’s a choice she may have to face again shortly, it’s nice to know she went for a slim hope rather than proudly standing around.

It’s interesting to contrast Nynaeve with the female channelers of the AoL, who arguably went for the opposite choice. Hard to say if that was for the worse or not.

Actually, it’s interesting to compare a lot of this age’s cast with what we know of the last age- not just Rand vs. LTT, but Nynaeve and Egwene vs. the AOLAS, or, say, Logain with Sammael or Demandred.

Assuming Logain isn't Sammael or Demandred, of course. : )

WetlanderNW @71, JonathanLevy @73: The specific incident that led to Cadsuane’s banishment was very much a microcosm of a bigger problem people (in and out of story, and sometimes including me) often have with her.

Specifically, she took sole custody of both the domination band and the access key, having unilaterally decided that she- and no one* else- was capable and responsible enough to protect and control such dangerous potential. And she was wrong. Her blithe overestimation of her abilities in that regard apparently led directly to the situation going so FUBAR.

Of course, we the readers know what team light doesn’t- that it might (or might not) have been Shadar Haran rather than any human who got the bracelets. We don’t know much about his abilities, so it’s not clear what, if anything, would be sufficient to have stopped him; for all we know, surrounding the band in Rand’s best wards and dropping it at a secret location on the bottom of the ocean wouldn’t have prevented him from finding and retrieving the thing just as easily. Then again, it might have- the question is largely beside the point, since Cadsuane doesn’t seem to have even considered the possibility that putting sole control in her own hands might be anything less than the optimal solution.
Leigh Butler
97. leighdb
Halcyal @ 85:

Actually, your explanation made perfect sense to me. Thank you! And I agree, that seems to me to be exactly what Corele was failing to understand.

(Perhaps you should consider rewriting the Wikipedia article, heh.)


My condolences on your uncle's passing. It sounds like he will be greatly missed.
85. Halcyal

Nice explaination. I was to tired to twist my head on for that.


Why didn't I think of that? Too tired... I'm still too tired!

Hey! Does anyone no what happened to Sleep? 'Cus I haven't seen her in awhile.

Deana Whitney
99. Braid_Tug
@87, Greyfalconway
I really don't think that's how it would work.
If his mom had stayed in Caemlyn, 1) He would never be born & 2) Elayne would never be born.

If his mom had stayed in the Waste (or returned) he could have meet Avi. So that is possible.

In order for him to meet Min, he had to travel almost a week from EF. While not impossible, it was uncommon for Emond Fielders to travel like that. But I do think that was one of many things that happened during his book 2 “trip of possible lives.”
But it is fun to speculate.

The girls do represent his paths in life however: the courtier/leader, the warrior, and the common man.
Anthony Pero
100. anthonypero
Oh yes, the Hunny Snipe is back!

@tnh: For me, making comparisons to puke and diarreah are quite natural. I have small children.

I love TTD's Saidar users One Power Strength Rankings. The logic and thoroughness involved with working out who's stronger than who was well thought and they should be commnended for the effort. It makes an interesting read as well.

If you haven't cheked it out...do.

Birgit F
102. birgit
On the other hand, assuming it can predict everything less than total annihilation also introduces questions, such as whether the pattern could predict the conditions which led to that.

The Pattern doesn't predict anything. It just weaves a pattern from lives. Min can see parts of where some threads will go in the future, but if the Pattern is torn before the weaver gets to that part it will never happen.
Thomas Keith
103. insectoid
Halcyal @85: That's a bit easier to understand. Thanks!

AP @100: One of these days I'll get the hunny again... :P

Where'd everyone go? Don't tell me you folks got lost in the Thirteenth Depository...

Anthony Pero
104. anthonypero
I agree. Predict is the wrong word for what the pattern does. It's more like "predetermine" it plans in advance. But that implies a consciousness I don't think it possesses. At any rate we are agreed. If the Wheel stops turning, then it doesn't matter what the pattern predetermined. The Pattern is not the future, it's the Wheel's plan for the future.
105. AndrewB
Looking Glass @96 said: "Nor do I think it’s a given that the pattern needs to stay anchored to the wheel forever. Even if you take the continuation of destiny as required, not all patterns are cyclical."

Actually, in the world that RJ created in the WoT, they do. A cyclical pattern is central to the mythology/world view that RJ has written. JK Rowlings world could not exist without the existence of magic. Yet other SF authors have created worlds where magic is not present.

Thanks for reading my musings,
106. Rand al'Todd
RE: The "usefulness" of Lan getting killed in a battle at the Gap:

To Rand, Lan's battle at the Gap would be a diversonary attack and therefore will help Rand, even if Lan dies.

Rand says he plans to directly attack Shayol Ghul. As Leigh said, Lan's attack at the Gap will keep the Shadow’s forces occupied while he (Rand) makes his move. So every Trolloc fighting Lan at the Gap is a Trolloc who cannot be fighting off the main attack at Shayol Ghul. (Rand seems to be saying that he expects the two battles will be close to simultaneous.) Rand also seems to rationalize that even if Lan's battle at the Gap is over by the time he (Rand) attacks, the defeat of Lan'a army will open the path for the Trollocs to invade south, getting them even further out of position to defend Shayol Ghul.

Hard and callous, yes, but many RL generals have done the same thing.
Matthew Hunter
107. matthew1215
macster@58: I don't think the shadow set it up, I think the Pattern did, so that a Dark Rand gets offended by being slapped, attacks the borderlander armies, and is killed by the several hundred thousand men and aes sedai there (ending the game by knocking the board over) rather than continuing on to let the Dark One win the game. If I mistyped above, sorry.

I thought the Min-Corele thing was more fanservice than anything else. Fans have asked in various fora how prophecy (and/or Min's viewings) can exist of a time after the Dark One wins if there is a chance he wins, since Min's viewings are never wrong. This is the answer wrapped up in a bow: if the DO wins, prophecy is moot, there is nothing left.

Wetlandernw@71: After all Cadsuane has done to piss him off, "guide" his actions, and slap him around -- she wants him to win but she won't balk at hurting him or his interests, lying to him, going behind his back, or whatever she has to if she thinks that's necessary to get him to make the choices she wants him to make. Cadsuane IS the ultimate Aes Sedai. She wants to guide him. She's smart enough to want to do it right, rather than lock him up in a box and drag him to Tar Valon, but she's not on his side in the same way that Nynaeve and the rest are sometimes. She doesn't give a clipped copper penny for Rand as a person, even if she would die to protect the Dragon Reborn.

And that's why she rubs people so very, very wrong. She doesn't want to convince him to make the right decisions, she wants to manipulate or even bully him into making them.

Her role was one that Moiraine could have and should have filled, because Moiraine could fill that role with far more grace and wisdom. But she was busy elsewhere, so we got Cadsuane instead.

As for the domination band, Rand would have been justified in executing Cads on the spot for that screwup. He trusted her with the responsibility to keep it safe and she was showing the thing off, wards and all, to everyone in her retinue, including at least one black ajah...
Roger Powell
108. forkroot
He trusted her with the responsibility to keep it safe and she was showing the thing off, wards and all, to everyone in her retinue, including at least one black ajah
The text contradicts you. She only showed the domination bands to Sorilea and Bair (TGS Chap 14).

BTW, This was the source of the theory that Sorilea was a Darkfriend (since she could have seen how Cadsuane disabled the weaves.) Earlier in the chapter, we see Sorilea learning Cadsuane's weaves for blocking Semirhage's hearing - and Cadsuane thinks to herself that although Sorilea is weak in the power, she was a very quick learner.

BWS has since made statements in interviews that have cleared Sorilea.
Paul Long
109. Caveatar

Regarding Wortmauer's request re longwinded confusion.
I would like to suggest another possible modification.
The Forums are limited to 10000 characters per post
2000 words.
My longwinded response on # 24 went through with no
problem but when moved to the forum had to be split.
A limitation such as Wortmauer suggests
but of a max character count per post would cause some, (read ME)
to rethink their/my verbosity and at least increase the
post count and the Hunny Harvest if that is desirable as well as fun
The Developer Cometh you say and Riding the Dragon maybe
(pictures the Developer astraddle Rand and the Developer looks
like Min, and Elayne and Aviendha)

Just a thought.
Tess Laird
110. thewindrose
Caveatar - I am now picturing the Developer as Mystique from xmen...

Also at Caveater - I enjoy your posts(and I speak for everyone HA!). I think posting your musings and stories on the forum has been a great idea, and you posts here are pretty much on topic now - when they do go off topic(I use this term loosely here -( I mean when have we not gotten off topic on one of the WoT threads??) - it is prompted by something in the thread.

The post itself - If Rand had actually balefired Far Madding - or just kept it to the Borderlander Camps - could he have had the moment on the mountain?

And personal, but WoT related - I am very dissapointed that I can't go to JordanCon this year - I was really trying to get there. I will have to adopt a nothing will stop me mantra for 2013. I look forward to hearing about it from all who are attending.

Paul Long
111. Caveatar
@110 WindRose
Mystique from xmen... HOOOO BOY. Shouldn't do that to an old
codger. (But I will survive)
Hmm. Picture the Developer as Cads or Faile. Yeah.
That neutralized it.

Wind, I will complete your tribute on the forums later.
Had he balefired Far Madding he would have been doing
Moridin's desire. The borderlanders 13 were assisting
in assisting Moridin to provoke Rand to do the deed.

Teresa. I have deleted a lot of my posts on #24 and #25 ReRead
but the numbers and the "deleted, cav" are there.
If you could mass balefire the numbers and get the clutter out
of the way it would be good for me and good for people scrolling
and asking "WTH". Any responses to the deleted seem to have
quotes so that is okay.

And as usual, balefire removes the cause but leaves the effect.
Another contradiction
The Hunny Jars should remain with the original Poo bear which
got them.

Perhaps someone can note on the facebook discussions that
the garrulous old codger will keep the Thesaurus over by the
old field house and I will not throw sand in their sandbox.
(Cant think of a better image)
And they can return to where they used to be.
I will stay on the forums.
Wet Alice A , I am sorry to not honor your request to stay.
But I already paid for breaking my oath once.
That makes sufficient recompense.
My email and all else is on here and on the forums.

Best to all
Cav (no warnings and not even Gawyn nick)
112. Looking Glass
birgit @102, anthonypero @104: Um. Time travel tense terminology. Joy. I hope what I say next actually makes as much sense as I think it does, but time travel is notoriously hard to sort out so I may be blathering without realizing it. (End disclaimer.)

It seems, the way that characters use the term, that the Pattern is, by definition, the future (and the past and the present)… which may or may not exist.

Maybe it would have been more accurate to say that “various parties, including Min, can extrapolate from current conditions including the direction that the Pattern appears to be moving”?

Min says you can’t anticipate whether the Pattern will be completely disrupted by an outside force solely by looking at the Pattern. On the other hand, you can apparently anticipate a period when it is at risk of outside disruption, since that’s exactly what the prophecies of the dragon do. Maybe you can identify that period because the only force which could be outside currently isn’t outside and has to extricate itself before it can threaten unanticipated disruption.

Corele almost has a point- and doesn’t know why she’s wrong, because she’s never experienced balefire.

Corele’s argument is that Min is, for all practical purposes, experiencing the future, so the future Min is experiencing must exist, so the Dark One cannot have destroyed the future from some point before that onward. Assuming that if the Dark One wins he will destroy the entire Pattern- ie, the past, present, and future- then you don’t actually need Min’s visions for that argument. Corele could just as easily say that they’re experiencing the present right now, so clearly the present exists and therefore the Dark One cannot win (and subsequently destroy everything forwards and backwards) at any point in time.

I think that is indeed the anthropic principle, in combination with the assumption that what we experience must exist. Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that assumption is wrong. Lots of people, most notably Rand (and we readers, actually), have experienced events that never actually happened. Looking at the Pattern (if it doesn’t not exist), Rahvin died unceremoniously sometime before lunch when his body just kind of poofed out of existence, after which various other parties spent a couple of hours hallucinating that he was still around.

Of course, you can go the “I think therefore I am” route to argue that you, at least, exist. The anthropic principle would then imply that because you (for at least some value of “you”; let’s call it your soul) do presently exist, therefore Dark One cannot retroactively destroy your soul. It’s not a given that your soul’s existence implies the Pattern’s existence, though.

AndrewB @105: Yet other authors have written stories where magic is central to the story and mythology… and then goes away. There are a lot of Twilight-of-the-Gods type stories out there.

Then again, perhaps I’ve just got more in common with Ishy than I’d like to admit. I do find the idea that you could arrive at eternal damnation but not eternal salvation kind of depressing.

Though maybe the point is that neither truly exists, despite what the Shadow would have you believe. Or that you can get eternal salvation one day at a time, though the mathematical side of me is yelling about no induction to infinity on that one. Or something.

I suppose I’ll have to RAFO.
Sam Mickel
113. Samadai
Wow, It has turned into a ghost town in here.

I know it is on the ToM's cover, but has anyone besides me noticed that Noal looks like General Zod from Superman II. Well, as that actor looks like now (Terrence Stamp ( I think)). I was really looking at the detail of it, and noticed that
Alice Arneson
114. Wetlandernw
Samadai @113 - I have a whole lot to say, but it might be considered off topic and offend someone.

I'm still going to say it, but not until I have some quiet time to compose my statement. I'm well and truly upset with some people here, so I don't dare just say what I think right now.
Valentin M
115. ValMar
Ooh, should we gird ourselves for battle, Wetlander may be on the warpath ;)
I should read back the comments and try to guess the problem issues. Probably Cadsuane again... Views tend to be too one-sided on both sides (and obviously wrong- RJ would not write a character like that) and probably the posts who try to be balanced displease both sides.

Either way, I would urge everyone to make sure they are really upset and not mistaken about it. It's hard to write something like that without sounding patronizing to people...
Anthony Pero
116. anthonypero

I always look for the simple analogies. View the Pattern as a Novel. It has been written. View Time, Life, and other mysteries as the act of reading this Novel. What the novel says is preordained, it's already been written. Min is like a character in the novel who skips ahead in the novel and can read a portion of it out of context. So, the whole novel exists. But Life, Time, and therefore the Future, are the act of READING the novel chronologically. There's nothing to stop the Reader (the Wheel) from dropping the book in the bathtub (DO destroys the Wheel and Time, and everything), thereby preventing the book from being finished. Reading that is. Finished being Read.

But to further complicate matters, this is no ordinary Novel. While everything has been written, and is preordained in that sense, Min's fourth wall-breaking visions, skipping ahead in the story to see what happens, occasionally shows forks, or choices that will lead down divergent paths.

So, as I have now clearly demonstrated, The Wheel of Time is actually a Choose Your Own Adventure novel.

Don't drop it in the bathtub, Brandon.
Cameron Tucker
117. Loialson
@116 ap

Dont worry, Brandon has many backups :). And you don't bring your spare hard drive to the tub.
Karen Fox
119. thepupxpert
Wow super quiet, I've been gone for a couple of days and only about 18 posts from the last time I checked. Well, here's 119.
Alice Arneson
120. Wetlandernw
ValMar @115 - I don't get all that upset with people who disagree with me on WoT, though I do get annoyed by people who refuse to read the text and base their comments on exaggerations supported only by their own prejudice. But I don't get all that upset. Nor do I get mad enough to chew nails and spit tacks when someone misreads Cadsuane. She's a fictional character.

Like I said, it's technically off topic. And no, I haven't had time to work out my comments.
Matthew Hunter
121. matthew1215
forkroot@108: Even if we don't see it on screen, I think we can imply quite a bit from Elza's (sp?) presence at Semirhage's breakout. Elza is BA, and a long-running member of Cadsuane's retinue, and IIRC was basically right outside the room when Cads was showing it off to Sorilea and Bair.
Sam Mickel
122. Samadai
Elza was not a member of Cadsuanes retinue. She was one of the AS who had kidnapped Rand and was captured at Dumais Well. She was one of the first AS to swear fealty to Rand after Their "wisening".
123. Freelancer
Be double-warned. A barrage of my own will follow that of Wetlandernw. I'll just preview it by saying that some folks should be ashamed of themselves. The type who fawn over glossy, fake flowers in a bowl on the coffee table, but kick over tulips in the garden. Sometimes reality isn't as "neat" as you'd like. Well that's just too bad, growing up might teach you to get over it. Or it might not.
124. alreadymadwithmorecads
Halcyal @85
I got lost somewhere around the third "which is predicated upon".

Lookingglass @96
Maybe and maybe not. From what I can see Cadsuane simply strongarmed Nynaeve into going her way. Rather than letting Nynaeve make an informed decision, she forced her into the "it's my way or the highway" frame of mind. Yes she had a plan. Yes, nobody else did. But on no information at all and the simple faith that her plan will turn out the best, Cadsuane simply bullied Nynaeve into doing her dirty work for her.
Which is really what rubs me wrong. Wanting more information before you act is not pride. It's common sense. Cadsuane essentially forced her to abandon it and take a leap of faith on Cadsuane's plan. This after she praised Nynaeve for "having sense" or promise or potential or some such. Well apparently, having too much sense to question before acting is a no-no when you're following Cadsuane's plan.

As for Cadsuane's exile:
Part of it is chafing at the limits Cadsuane set on Rand's behavior. Part of it is her failure in a responsibility that she took on voluntarily with no input whatsoever from anybody else. She took the Domination Band and refused to let anybody else handle it. The buck stopped with her when it got lost.
Thomas Keith
125. insectoid
Wetlander & Freelancer: Well, you have my support, whatever it is you have to say; you're not the only ones upset (me, only a little, but still upset) by the recent trend here.

Alice Arneson
126. Wetlandernw
For the first time, I find myself deeply saddened by something I’ve seen on the WoT reread. I’ve been irritated, annoyed and occasionally steaming mad. I’ve been amused, enlightened and occasionally dumbstruck by brilliance. I’ve gotten annoyed at the trolls, rolled my eyes at the innumerable “look at my new theory: Olver is Gaidal Cain!” newbies, laughed myself almost sick and applauded heartily at the amazing poetry we’ve seen from time to time. I’ve been rude and been corrected; I’ve corrected others who have been rude.

But I’ve never before seen someone ask the moderators, on thread in front of everyone, to block one individual just because they don’t like the length and frequency of his posts. I can’t honestly say I’m shocked at the rudeness of it (which is sad in itself!), but I am deeply disturbed that some few, for whatever reasons, can’t find in their hearts to just scroll down if you don’t want to read it!

I cannot speak for everyone here, but I will speak for myself. When I have been rushed for time (or stretched for brainpower) I have scanned through or even skipped over some of Caveatar’s posts and not really stopped to think about what he said, knowing that it was my loss. However, in those that I have read (every one of which was triggered by on-topic WoT discussion), I have been stunned at the things he puts together, the eloquence with which he does it, the deep and abiding humor he applies and the poetry of his very thinking. I can’t hope to ever compete with the sheer volume of information he holds in his head, nor the leaps by which he connects things most of us would think irrelevant, but I can be grateful for what I learn from him. I can be grateful that he has the time to write what he’s thinking and the generosity to share it with us. I can be grateful that, however profound the effects of the stroke he suffered in the past, he is able to once again know what he knew and express what he’s learned.

Believe me, I understand the crunch of time and the need to skip over or scan through long posts sometimes. We all do it sometimes; that’s what the scroll function is for. For those frustrated by coping with the volume on their mobile, I even comprehend the frustration of using a tool that’s not really up to the task. However, I must point out that the platform you use is your own choice. What I really fail to see is why anyone else should be limited by constraints you chose for yourself. Nor, having chosen those constraints, why you should feel entitled to be blatantly rude to someone who has done you no harm.

Caveatar has never been anything but humble, humorous and courteous here. The sole exception might be when he spoke up in defense of another he felt was being maligned. While never speaking a word in self-defense, he would yet stand up for anyone else – and would come down hard on anyone who was overtly discourteous to a woman. Even that he did graciously, gently and with humor. I wish I could say the same for everyone here, including myself.

I am deeply distressed, offended and angered by those who so clearly place their own personal convenience over the goodwill, enjoyment and freedom of others. You are free to say what you will – but so is Paul Long. If he has more time than most of us, as well as more knowledge and experience, is that an excuse to be rude? He's passed his "threescore and ten" years, and is still eagerly learning and growing. Are you?

Rand at least had some excuse for his bad manners and lack of compassion; he had a round half-dozen extra people in his head, taint-madness, and the fate of the world on his shoulders. What’s your excuse? Your fingers get cramped when you have to scroll down too much? Gee, that’s so sad! Somehow, I can’t find much sympathy.

I want, badly, to ask Caveatar to come back to the reread, because I truly appreciate his input – even though I don’t catch half of what he’s saying. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I’ve seen more insight and sheer brilliance in 6 weeks’ worth of Caveatar’s comments than in the combined total input of those who complained. I want him back, but I’m not sure I can actually ask him to return again, if he’s going to be subjected to this kind of unadulterated crap.
Hugh Arai
127. HArai
Somewhat ironic: whoever asked for Caveatar to be blocked must be someone I skip over, since I missed that. Personally I find Caveatar's posting format tremendously difficult to follow but I can't say it ever occurred to me they should be prevented from posting. Definitely agree with your post.
Paul Long
128. Caveatar
@126 Wetlandernw.

Lady, I will try to respond to your post as it deserves.
Every word I say here is true.
I have been really impressed with your words.

I once broke a promise on my Iron Master's Oath and it cost me
pain that nearly comes close to childbirth labor.
A hot coal burning through the skin until the blood flows is painful.
It burns out the bad in the dark half of my mind and it restores
the good part and the kind part and the part which has become
distorted. I can deaden the nerves until I can watch it burn and
feel nothing like a leper does from his condition. The nerves send
no signal.
The paying the blood debt of a broken oath must be paid by an
increased sensitivity to cause the Soul to be Cauterised and the
Flame of the Mind to be reignited like Purifying a Defiled Forge.
That shit HURTS, and it goes on seemingly for friggin EVER.
The wound is cauterised and the blisters burned away and it
leaves no melanin in the wound. Pure white and ghastly.
That ghastliness is what the Soul was like Before it was cleansed.

I told Freelancer how right he was in reading my mind. Better
than I understood it myself.

I will tell you what a young man told his first love in an island
restuarant. But only a small part of it.

"I would break any oath, ...and suffer any punishment for it"
Which I did once because of your request.
And will do again if necessary to honor and respect the Gateway
of Life which you are. Proven to be by being a real Mother.
Pain of burning flesh is nothing to the pain of dishonoring
one such as you who knows what being a Maker is.

Anytime Alice, A.
Anytime At All, Artistic Arguer.
Acceed and Accept an Ada (Adornment) A.L.I.C.E
Lady, Mother, Maker, Eve Eternal.

Ancient Artistic Adept
Little protector of wealth,
Paul Edward Long

Cav is back to say.
Alice A YOU and Free and everyone here have helped me to heal.
Only two poisoned persons have hindered the healing.
I have removed their very names from my world inside my head
and now cannot see those when I read. I control my world as a
smith must.
Balfire like, the effect remains even with that. I remember the threat
to "anyone who disrespects me, whether 5, 30 or 80" and though
the name is not recognised in my mind, the link to those words is
now in the hands of the Cybercrime people to see if a threat exists.
I will leave it in their hands as I leave judgment to the moderators
here and I leave the choice to Tor and representatives to do what
they choose with my posts.
I scatter seed in another's field and harvest or uproot it is the
field owner who has the ownership of the resulting growth.
I merely hope to 'back up' what is coming back to my damaged
brain because I have no assurance that it will not happen again.
What better place than the place which helped it heal
and the people who were my therapy. You, and others here.
After all, Charlie Gordon didn't escape it and I have no Algernon
with a grave for my flowers. Flowers for Algernon is my posting
for any who accept it.
The only flowers I can give. I need none on my own grave. I choose
to be burned and scattered on Spirit Mountain which I can see in
the distance. The Center of Creation of the Desert Pai, Tribesmen.
My guiding rule is a poem made into a song.
I will pass this way but once.
If there's any kindness I can show
Let me show it now.
For I will never pass this way
Never see this Day,
I'll never pass this way again.
Not mine but I have written others.
For your pleasure and laughter Wet Alice
This: I have been asked 100 times, "Why don't you write a book?!"
I do not reply, "I have written several. If you really wanted to know
you could find out easily.
But you don't want to know Anything. You only want to Talk and
be the center of all. "
I say, "hmmm . Maybe I wlll but writing is hard."
Writing what I think is as easy for me as breathing.
On the story of Dite and Shallum and Tommy Trout the Trout Scout
I turned an Instant Messenger chat with a lonely woman in your
neck of the woods, many years ago before my stroke, into help
for a woman who was at her wits and life's end if something didnt
I made our conversation into a story, I wrote the tale, and the poems
and the action as fast as I could type and automatically wrote love
poetry which I read later. Didn't really read while writing.
It is on the forums. I am Vulcan, the woman was Coyote and
the thing is liked by many. Even me.
Try it when you get that 1 and a half minutes every day.
All my posts about my life experiences are accurate except the names
and places are not right to protect ..me mainly but them too.
I promised Wortmauer and I promise you. I will not leave this place
unless Malach Hamovis insists but I talk a good talk and maybe Death
gets lonely too.
Ain't that a good thought.
I will reveal what I am sure will happen in WOT
as I am sure it will happen in our world.
Rand has to bring Salvation to One for sure or it will keep
on forever.
The main thing is the First Son of Fire, Lucifer(Lightbringer),
become Satan(Enemy) and the dragon will drain all his Light
to restore that First Son of Fire to his original brightness.
Want to bet? RJ knows all the myth, history and religion and lore
I ever heard of in my life. And part of that is what I just bet on.

James Hogan
129. Sonofthunder
Wetlander@ 126 - well said.

Cav - I can't express myself quite as eloquently as Alice, but know that I agree with every word. I won't offer to call down fire from heaven on your behalf, but know that I greatly appreciate your sung thoughts and written words.
Paul Long
130. Caveatar
@129 Son of thunder.
You know who you are named for and you are named
for James. what are your sister's names and tell me you
left the fishing business and I will join a snakehandler
church, (Bullshit. I wont either.)
If you visit the forums and look for Caveatar Thread starter
you will find the sung wood, make that thoughts and written
words, make that paragraphs, long and many. LOL
Jimmy in Israel offered that to Jesus. The only way I am like
Jesus is we both actually care about people.
Well, He does, I try to.
Thank you Supplanter
Cav, (warning not included)
Paul Long
131. Caveatar
Copied to Forum Thread will remove from here after a while.
After WortMauer has a chance to read it here.
Paul Long

@355 Wortmauer
Jonathan Levy
132. JonathanLevy
126. Wetlandernw
But I’ve never before seen someone ask the moderators, on thread in front of everyone
It's worth remembering, in mitigation, that the post I suspect you were referring to was made on a necro thread, that is, one which was no longer being read as regularly since a newer one was up, and had devolved into a conversation between two or three lingerers. That post was deliberately copied into this thread by a third party, in what I can only suppose was a deliberate act of provocation, or baiting.

That said, I have also been scrolling a lot recently, and I believe you are quite right to remind people that this is the proper tool for those who need it.
Rob Munnelly
133. RobMRobM
I agree with Jonathan on the mitigation point and also note that the requestor IMO made his request in a respectful manner and has added substantial insights during his time contributing to this re-read. That being said, as I noted above, I'm happy to let Cave keep being Cave.


P.s. What was this WoT chapter about anyway? I can't remember. Ah, making scents of things. Got it. LOL.
Leigh Butler
134. leighdb
Hey guys,

Normally I try not to intervene in disputes in the comments, but in this case I really do feel that perhaps it is warranted for me to put my two cents in.

And my two cents are: trying to crowd out a member of a forum who is not actively trying to negatively impact that forum is not cool.

I understand the impulse behind the request, and I don't think there was any malice attached to it, but nevertheless I think it is not indicative of the kind of community I think most of us would like the Re-read to be.

Like many of us, I do not understand everything Caveatar has to say, but there's a distinct difference between being sometimes difficult to follow, and being a troll. Trolls deserve to be ousted from the forums they harass: Caveatar does not, and his presence here is anything but harassment, in my opinion.

Over the past three years I have been deeply impressed by the amount of grace, tolerance, and rationality shown by the commenters on this here Re-read. My ramblings are merely the jumping-off point: y'all are the community, and I am continually amazed at its vitality and inclusiveness - and a teeny bit flattered, even though I know it really owes nothing to me and everything to you guys. I would hate to see that tarnished by, well, by this.

So, let's not, okay? All forgiven, bygones and kumbaya and yadda, right?

Right! Carry on!

Jeff Schweer
135. JeffS.
I would like to add that this forum, with all of it's inanities, digressions and heartfelt passion for the work, is why I'm here. I've at least tripled my enjoyment of these books because of this reread.
And even when I've been wrong, or maybe just mistaken, I've never felt spite or condescension. I'm glad we're muddling through.

These last few weeks have been tough on all of us. I guess real life, the pressures and even the passion I mentioned before can get the best of us at times.
I really need this place for being with people who love something as much as I do even if we disagree on some things.
Deep breath...

I am only an egg
Paul Long
136. Caveatar
YO WortMauer
WTF are you? I need a response to that monstrous thing that I have
posted and have difficulty reading.

Put up a note or something So I can get it the hell off of this thread.
It is copied to the forums. Not lost at all.
But I need a response to my response to your response to...
Well Hell you get it.
IF that GD RL gets in the way again I am gonna put Darkun on his
ass until his is as dark and shiny as old codger Darkun.

With all respect to Wort and Leigh and all the people who have helped
me heal.
Dammit man, respond.
I will wait til you do.
Cav (no warning)
Paul Long
137. Caveatar
@132 and 133
Wort was posting on a dying thread.
I did the same
stuff was carried to the next thread because resurrection is tricky
I told Wortmauer the plain truth.
I agreed that things could be done and suggested supporting ideas.
I have no animosity at all to WortMauer.
I am only waiting til he has a chance to respond before I move that
extremely long thing.
So he can see and all can see what was taking place.

Someone who knows how please ask him to respond and let me
clear my part of this out of the main highway and onto a sideroad.

BTW : the Forum editor and stuff is much easier and has a limit
of 10000 characters. Good limitation too.

I grok waterbrothers (sounds like the Aiel do it not?)
I also am but an egg. Fried. In bacon fat. Over easy.

I love all yall healers and stuff.
Tricia Irish
138. Tektonica
Caveatar: Please don't go away.

To echo our fearless leader....we have always been a respectful and inclusive group. The past few weeks have not been indicative of this forums' usual demeanor. We need ALL voices, that aren't trolls...and you are NOT!

Everyone: If there is a post or a poster whose comments you dont' want to read...just skip it! Honestly, is that so hard??

Thank you, Leigh.
Paul Long
139. Caveatar
Tek. I aint gone no where.
I burned my soul clean to not go away from here.

Thank you for consideration.
And thank Wortmauer for speaking plainly without one of those
goddamned lying smiley frigging faces which are more insulting
when misused than anything he ever could say.

Say, do you suppose 'he' could be a she? I'd better not screwed that
gender thing up again. (yes it was on purpose with the ....)

WET. IF I have not totally misread your various comments
you are going to class with a potential perfect judge.
The latin student.
Put the situation to your seat partner in a symbolic picture and see
what perfect innocence answers.
And let us know.
Make it a clowder of cats agreeing on something and so forth.
Please? Or do not bother the innocent with the guilty(Me).
Paul Long
140. Caveatar
@132 JonathanLevy
...In what I can only suppose was a deliberate act of provocation, or baiting.
Your supposition was in error sir.
Had you read it you would know that.
If you made that supposition in support of Wortmauer, then thank you.
My deliberate act was deliberate but it was not provocation of him
or any damned body else.
I am honest to you like he was to me.
Thank you Robert Jordan
and you too JonathanLevy
Speak the truth but listen to others truth before you make any supposition
about Wortmauer or Me
I await your response be it never so blistering. I was raised over a
fire that would melt iron. Heat doesn't bother me at all.

If it is of kindness to Wormauer. I will bless you for it.
Paul Long
All moderators. Hesitate to stop anyone's response to this conversation
between interested parties. Please. Randland is destroyed for lack of
truthful communication. Thank you RJ you magnificent Scribe.
Paul Long
141. Caveatar
@Ms Butler
Caveatar does not
and neither does Wortmauer.
Where the hell is he/she/whatever I don't really care which?
I am concerned that an honest man/woman may leave and
I mean Wort, not me.
Dead serious and dead honest.

While I see you are here, I would love to see you post as whatever
along with us. Incognito and all. I love your responses. I haven't
been so passionate about anything for way too long.

If you really are a butler, would you buttle me a hot coffee with
Baileys or St. Brendans?
Or I will serve you one.

Paul Long,
Cav, no eatar.
Paul Long
142. Caveatar
One last time.
the possibility of crossing your mind.
Had I awakend in a hospital which had a staff that helped me to heal
I would not object in any way to one who told me,
"Hey. You are disturbing other patients. Give them a break."

If Wort is gone for whatever reason I will be like JOb
Then let thistles grow instead of wheat
and Cockles instead of barley.
The words of Caveatar will damn well be ended.
Somebody check and kick that damned RL's ass up around RL's shoulders.
Paul Long
143. Caveatar
While I wait I will tell all what Min will tell Rand Sedai.
And if you see the same you will stone me to death. Rightly so.
The solution to Rand's dilemma is the solution to an ancient
blacksmith's puzzle.
Min's buddy the warder could tell her if he has that one.
And Perrin could tell Rand if he knows the one I know.

Want the solution?
The Dragon must consider all parties.
The Main Party is Moridin Elan Moran Tedroanai, Satan Lucifer
Betrayer of Hope in Eden
Rand must use his blood poured out in Shayol Ghul, (hell) to
save THAT guy. MOridin.
Pour his dragonmount light full power back into Lightbringer
who has become Dark as a black hole.
Save the one who has caused all the problems for all history of the
Cycle of the Wheel.
Restore the Enemy to the Lucifer Light Bringer.

If he cant or will not then the frigging wheel will never get better.
So sayeth an Ancient BlackSmith's puzzle.
Goldsmith, weaver, scribe and many others art puzzle and weave.

Now someone would be right to kick my ass for even saying it.

And SAY, aint it good. The Champion of the Tor rereads has
even posted in here. Too bad LDB didn't get a hunny cause she
is a hunny. I seen(sic) her pic at a gettogether somewhere.
Take THAT Berelain, you hussy. Our Leigh puts you in the shade!
Can I get an amen?

I go to the Casino to get a coffee or 3.
If Wortmauer has left this Eden I will damn well go with him
into that Dark Night.
Maybe brutal honesty has no place in this Eden either.
Love you magnificent healers
All of you.
Wort, I am right behind you if you leave.
Lets go kick some sabertooth ass.
Might be fun.
144. Hawkido
Oh what the hell happened...
I left the Bunker for one day, and now the place is trashed! Leigh, can you post the next re-read soon so we can all move on to the next heated discussion re-filled with WoTtiness?
145. Hawkido
Wow... oh look there's a baby in the closet... and oh my there is a tiger in the bathroom, A TIGER!

Where's Doug?
Ron Garrison
146. Man-0-Manetheran
Caveator @ 143:
"Rand must use his blood poured out in Shayol Ghul, (hell) to save THAT guy. MOridin."
I like this thought. It's a further extension of my Looney Theory, and one that I hadn't carried fully forward. What is "A Memory of Light" - was it Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, or have we yet to experience it?

I think we have yet to experience it fully. For many cycles, the DO has tried (and sometimes succeeded) in turning the Dragon to the Darkside. I keep thinking how ironic it would be for Rand to turn Moridin to the Light. Cav, you carried it to the next step: Rand actually saves Mo's soul through self sacrifice. (Unless I misunderstood you.)

We have watched and agonized over Rand's long decline into darkness. We've seen his fight to save the world look more like he is going to destroy it. Balefire. Leaving the innocent to starve. Could the DO do it any better?

What ending did Jordan write so many, many years ago? I hope it is a triumphant one for the Light, and I'm sure it will be. For the Wheel so loved the world...
Sam Mickel
147. Samadai
M-o-M, I think it is an excellent take on what A Memory of Light could mean. I was thinking along the same lines in tGS spoiler thread. Though it was more Rands newfound peace leaking back through the connection to Moridin.

Caveatar, Wortmauer, I am happy you are both part of this community, and hope neither of you will leave. I have never been a part of a community where I have felt accepted by so many, even if all I have to say is "good job""great chapters", or to torture my fellow re-readers with a lousy fiction fiction.
Caveatar, I hope I have tenth of the grace and wisdom you have, because then I know I am a good man
149. Freelancer

Patience, my friend. I know nothing of Wortmauer, so I can but speculate. Many of the less frequent among this crowd pop in on Tuesday to catch the fresh Butlerian offerings, pitch in their tuppence, then return to shadow for the remainder of another week. It may be that he will not revisit until then. It may be that your oft-accursed RL has its grip on him, or some more mundane consideration explains his non-response.

Given the cant of his recant this past several days, he will likely think quite well of the "monster" you intend to cage.

For myself, I was quite displeased to see that you had balefired your own words, until I understood that you had transported them. A moment of white-hot rage quenched, until all but a dull gray displeasure remained for the selfish (if honest) demand for some non-existent concept of consistency herein. It is they whose hands ought to have been held to the forge, not your own, and Leigh's input @134 says it all.

ETA ~ tnh, please excise that uselessness @148.
Irene Gallo
150. Irene
Freelancer. Got it. Thanks for the flag -- they are very helpful to us.
Irene Gallo
151. Irene

Freelancer. Got-it. Thanks for the flag -- they are very helpful.
Paul Long
152. Caveatar
At Mano
I understood it from the time I knew that Elan was the original
and Ishamael was the current.

The entire history of our race from Eden, the purpose of God in the
Garden and Adam and all history.
TO restore the LIght to the Lightbringer who had turned black as
the pit.
Who did Jesus die to save. SATAN!
To restore the beloved First Son of Fire to Light and Love.

Listen to the wind and it all falls togethere, Christian Pagan, hindu.
Egyptian, ALL Of it.
ANd someone hit me in the mouth. I have already posted this on the
forums where it would not be seen just in case I am right.
The Ending that that most magnificent man wrote is this.
Michael, the angel facing Lucifer across the throne of god,
The first and second Sons of fire are twins. Cherubim. Dragon or winged
bull. Moridin and teh Dragon are in opposition now and Lucifer has
lost his light. He is a dragon too. Michael the brother will die on the
cross, go to hell , shayol ghul, spill his blood there and give all the
LIght he got on Dragonmount to Lucifer his brother, restoring
the Memory of light of Lightbringer, and dieing shedding his blood
to restore the only solution to the Wheel of Time.

Later, I have a visitor. A pretty and nice woman and don't you
wish YOU did.
153. Wortmauer
Cav@136: YO WortMauer
WTF are you? I need a response to that monstrous thing that I have
posted and have difficulty reading.
Ha! Sorry dude, I did read your response back on the previous thread — just been busy — work and such. I used to post here during work hours all the time, but let's just say it made a noticeable dent in my productivity, my boss noticed, he and I had words, and now I mostly save it for after hours. But I didn't mean to leave you hanging. I appreciated your response very much. I won't change the orientation of my smilies, though. (: I figure, with my emoticons, you have to turn your head the same direction you would if you were reading the spine of a shelved book. An American book, that is. I understand a lot of European publishers have the opposite convention, in which you turn your head left to read the spine. That always seems so weird to me. And I suppose "reading the spine of a shelved book" might be exactly the wrong explanation in this forum, since Robert Jordan's books are so thick the publisher can in most cases just print the text right side up.

Ahem. Where was I? Ah yes. I do periodically reload these threads, in general, until I conclude they're well and truly dead, which I generally conclude when the newest post is 2 weeks old. So if you or anyone else wishes to get my attention, feel free to respond in the "correct" thread even if it isn't the current one. I know plenty of other people also do similar things.

As for the "deliberate act of provocation, or baiting", I think JonathanLevy@132 didn't mean me, but a response to me that was posted on the current thread. tnh has since deleted that response (I assume she concluded the same as JL did), so we'll say no more on't.
Alice Arneson
154. Wetlandernw
JonathanLevy @132 - Yes, it was on a post which, by a few hours, was not the most recent. However, in the WoT reread, no thread is dead until the moderators lock it, and there are 20+ more comments on that particular thread at this point.

Caveatar - My boy would love you. I'm absolutely certain of that. If you're curious, I posted an old but very typical picture of him and his sister on my profile page. My rascals. (Obviously, all are welcome to look.)

Caveatar @143 - Blow my mind... What a concept. I've wondered whose "memory" the memory of Light was going to be, and suspected that it might be Moridin, but I never thought about the possibility that Rand would essentially pour the Light back into Moridin to win. If this is the case, I would venture to guess that Moridin would then use himself to seal the Bore somehow. Maybe even sacrificing himself to take Padan Fain into the proper place to seal it perfectly again. (I have a firm theory, only slightly looney, that the essence of Shadar Logoth will be the necessary buffer between the True Power of the Dark One and the One Power of the Wheel/Pattern/Creator. So I have to fit any other theories in with that one.)

In other thoughts... Please note that I don't expect anyone to change their mind because of this, but I'm going to say it anyway. 

If I'm in Nynaeve's shoes, I'm feeling more than a little bit freaked out by the way things are going. Rand simply cannot be allowed to continue freely on his current path, but neither can he be allowed to be hurt any more. To my immense frustration, I can only control so much. Therefore, I'm thinking that I have to be absolutely sure that nothing I do will hurt him, and I'm not trusting anyone else very much. I also don't have a very... positive attitude toward Cadsuane. First, she's walked in and just taken authority over all sorts of things, and I'm not really accustomed to acknowledging anyone else's authority - not even the Amyrlin, truth be told. Second, Rand is angry at her for not adequately guarding that beastly Domination Band, and he doesn't want to even hear her name, so I have to be careful about working with her. Third, she treats me like a child; a relatively intelligent child, sometimes, but still a child who can't be trusted with any real "grown-up" stuff.

Now she's asking me for information, without giving me the slightest hint of why she wants it or what she's going to do with it. I'm getting bloody tired of being kept in the dark, I don't like her, and I don't entirely trust her. So... I decide that, since I've got the information she wants, I'll require that she tell me the plan before I tell her anything.

Now for the other side: If I'm in Cadsuane's shoes, I'm not only frustrated, but I'm all too well aware that if Rand keeps going down this path, the whole world is going to pay the price. The Wheel of Time itself may be destroyed, and I've dedicated all my life and my not inconsiderable skills and knowledge to preventing that outcome. My first and best plan, based on more years of experience than anyone else has to their credit, has failed and I've been banished from Rand's sight. (Well, my face has, anyway.) Working with others who seem to have the same goal, or close enough for now, I've come up with another plan; in order to work, though, Rand can't find out that I've had anything to do with it or it will backfire. Nynaeve is strong, intelligent and resourceful, but she's also headstrong and impulsive, prone to speak without thinking, and a terrible liar (as in, she can't lie worth beans).

I need information that she is best positioned to get, but I dare not risk telling her the plan until I'm ready to put it into action. If she were to accidentally blurt out even the slightest mention of finding Tam al'Thor, Rand would forbid her to do any such thing. If she were to accidentally let him know that I were trying to find Tam, our best hope would be defeated before we ever had a chance to try it. My best chance is to get her to find out where Perrin is; when she has sufficiently accurate intel so that we can go straight to him, I can let her in on the plan on our way out the door (or through the Gateway). 

Now she comes in and says she knows where Perrin is, but she won't tell me where unless I tell her the plan. Without hearing what she's actually learned, I don't know whether she's got enough to tell us exactly where he is, or whether we're going to have to do some further digging to get his exact location. What do I do? Well, aside from not letting her get away with the stubborn-child act, I'm going to stall and see what happens. Asking about the Borderlanders' meeting should be both a good diversion and good information.

So: both positions are completely understandable and, to some extent, justifiable. Who should give in first? Obviously, the way it was written is in character - and suitable to the story - for both characters. With the realization that Rand is on a path to actually destroy the Wheel, Nynaeve decides that any plan is better than none, her pride notwithstanding. Fortunately, her description of Perrin's location (which Rand suggested she could eventually find with the help of the local scribes and librarians) is a place that Cadsuane recognizes personally, so the whole thing is resolved on the spot. Nynaeve is rewarded by not only being told the plan, but brought in on its execution; Cadsuane no longer needs to be concerned about accidental leaks. 
155. Freelancer

Well, the street involved is not guided by a sign saying ONE WAY. If Nynaeve's decision to apply leverage with the knowledge she was sent to gain can be called a "stubborn-child act", then equity suggests no less of a judgement be applied to the "I'm sending you to fetch me information, but not telling you why" act. It cannot be glossed over that Cadsuane is utterly out of favor, while Nynaeve is the only channeler truly trusted by Rand, the only reason Cadsuane finds herself having to get Nynaeve's help. Well, when you have to ask for help from someone you'd rather not deal with, to think you won't have a price to pay is not much less than arrogant.

Of course, as readers we can step back from the scene and think "They shouldn't be bickering over these things, they should be working together!", but you know we have been saying this since about the third chapter of TEotW, and it is the backbone of a major moral of the story. This comes back to the same point I made the last time. Cadsuane's default position is ALWAYS to share nothing if possible, as little as necessary when unavoidable. (So was Moiraine's early on, but she learned better)

Cadsuane is currently in a position which, with any humility at all, should require her to capitulate towards other more, not less. Your analysis is perfectly valid, that she fears any sniff from Rand that they are arranging a meeting with Tam, and it puts the Kaibosh on that plan, one of the only ones they have left to try and restore his humanity. That does not change that she expects others to trust her, while stubbornly evading reciprocity. Nynaeve's use of Perrin's location to extort more information from Cadsuane is tame in comparison.
156. s'rEDIT
Whew! Glad I haven't refreshed the page all day. I suspect that much of what I've read has disappeared by now.

I can't be eloquent, but I *can* say that I've enjoyed, valued, and looked forward to contributions from both Wortmauer and Caveator, I'd hate to see either or both disappear.

Thank you leighdb for stepping back in lend an official seal to what we all agree: let's keep community foremost.

Though it seems humanly impossible to literally "forgive and forget," we can do our best to mend the tattered pattern.
Paul Long
157. Caveatar
Moved to Forums
Paul Long
158. Caveatar
@153 Wortmauer
Thank you. I thought I had responded but it didn't get through.

I think we communicate very well but it only takes one misread
to screw stuff up.
Glad you are still here , and I am too.

On Topic. Lack of communication. Misunderstanding. Happens
all the time and that is the Tower of Babel.
one language didn't become 140 languages but everyone began to
misunderstand til they just gave it the hell up and spread over
the world.
I can see why.
I am still trying to get the Launcelot fight in my head. Doesn't want
to work.
I be off and catching up on that R L.

Paul Long
159. Caveatar
@146 Mano
how ironic it would be for Rand to turn Moridin to the Light

No one can walk in the dark so long.....


I like this thought. It's a further extension of my Looney Theory, and
one that I hadn't carried fully forward. What is "A Memory of Light" -
was it Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, or have we yet to experience it?
It was your comment about that that led me to consider that
Ishy and Moridin and Elan and the Memory of Light was the
memory of the Lost light of Lucifer.

I responded with a rhyme,something like

The one known as Man o ManeTheren
going mano a mano with Lews Therin
Tamyrlin Ring wearer, justice bearer
Bring Mercy to the Dark that's fairer
Cast a shadow of light into the blight
Fill the devil with Lucifer's pure Light.

Or some such.
I would hate to try to find it now.

You triggered the thought which I had not previously
Therefore it was due to your thoughts that I had my
thoughts and without you I would not have thought it.
(Damn I hate them "ought"s and nought is worse.)
So, as far as I know the entire idea is yours because I
had never seen others' ideas and posts about it.

RJ has been telling us that all along.
Moridin is in hell or rather hell is in Moridin. The flames in the eyes
and in the burning face of Ishamael.
Isha mael Man Prince.....Prince of Man, overseer angel for mankind.
(you have destroyed your people)
Taim= M'Hael They call him M'Hael which means "Leader" in the Old tongue
A false dragon . He joined Rand and is now second in command of the
Cav....Too much stuff, too little time.
Rob Munnelly
160. RobMRobM
Re Moridin, I have been saying for quite some time that AMOL refers to him rather than to Rand. I jumped on that particular bandwagon early - not that Tam will get married by the end of the series early but sometime in the past dozen or so books and 3 (?) plus years of this re-read. So I will take full credit, yes I will. (Do I feel like finding where I figured out that perspective, not at this point, no sirree.)


Edit - At least as far back at ACOS 20, in April 2010. Ditto re TGS 2 last September.
You can credit yourself for being the first to mention in this forum that your theory is such and such. But you can not take credit for the Idea itself. It is very likely, that we have fans out there who had ask the same questions and came to the same conclusions as you before you. Or maybe you thought of it first. It doesn't matter though, because unless the other was aware of your theory, he has just as much claim to the theory as anyone. If he came with it on his own outside of this forum its as much his own as yours.

That said, I think you were the first to mention it within a post.

Rob Munnelly
162. RobMRobM
Z - Putting aside the likelihood that somethone at Theoryland or Tar Valon.net or Dragonmount came up with idea that AMOL refers to Moridin, I'm probably not even the first person here on the re-read to come up with it....I just can't remember other posts at this point. I'm just happy to send up a few flyers and hope they work out.


P. s Long timers here know my detailed Morgase-Tam theory .... not looking so good at this stage of the series. Damn that Brandon Sanderson for not reading RJ's notes carefully enough, LOL. I'm sstill betting that Tam gets happily hitched by the end, bringing fullness of WoT to a point made in very first chapters of EOTW. I've always liked Leane - maybe she'll get herself a warder.
Anthony Pero
163. anthonypero
I believe I first heard Moridin mentioned as the subject of the title on this thread a few years ago. I haven't been on other fan sites since before RJ died.
Anthony Pero
164. anthonypero

I'd bet that Tam is one who kicks it in the last book. He can be sacrificed for emotional impact without affecting the plot one iota.
Rob Munnelly
165. RobMRobM
AP - that's certainly the other alternative, but I'm still favoring the happy ending option for my favorite character not named Mat Cauthon.
Anthony Pero
166. anthonypero
Others on my (kick the) Bucket List:

Siuan and Gareth Bryne
Gawyn or Galad
Moiraine (for reals this time)
Lan (which means Nynaeve needs to get herself knocked up REAL SOON NOW)

No one else I really care about will die. Except bad guys. And Seanchan.

EDIT: I think Morgase is going to kick it as well.
Ron Garrison
167. Man-0-Manetheran
RobM: "Re Moridin, I have been saying for quite some time that AMOL refers to him rather than to Rand."
anthonypero: "I believe I first heard Moridin mentioned as the subject of the title on this thread a few years ago."

Gee. No wonder every time I mentioned it, my comment went unacknowledged. Old news! As a friend of mine loves to say, "there is no cure for teh stooopid."
Tess Laird
168. thewindrose
Dang - I wanted to bring up RobMRobM Tam/Morgase theory;)
(It could still happen Rob:))

I was on the Ishydin was the one to get the Aes Sedai to start using the Binder and the Oaths they came up with - but Maria dicounted that one:/

Roger Powell
169. forkroot
What if it's Slayer who has the "Memory of Light" and ends up doing something to save the day?

After all, we know that he's somehow essential to the Light winning TG (thanks to Gita Moroso.) In theory, Luke was originally a "good guy" before being ambushed and merged with Isam. He might remember.

Or maybe it's Fain/Mordeth? After all, Mordeth started as opposed to the Dark One, before becoming evil in his own way. Could Mordeth somehow??? ... Nah, forget it.
Anthony Pero
170. anthonypero

I think Slayer's role will be to battle Fain. If we view Fain in the Gollum role, its possible that something he does accidentally will seal the Light's victory. It's possible that battling Slayer may trigger whatever this is.
Alice Arneson
171. Wetlandernw
forkroot @169 - Now that would be a plot twist - worthy of Sanderson himself - if Mordeth "remembered the Light". Padan Fain voluntarily places himself between the True Power and the True Source to make the seal safe?? It would be a cool turn, though I don't see Fain's warped, twisted and thoroughly overloaded brain being able to make a rational decision...

Freelancer @155 - We're making the same point, though I was doing it much more obliquely. In my "from X's perspective" approach, Nynaeve's "stubborn-child act" would be so primarily from Cadsuane's perspective, not necessarily anyone else's. I think it fits in her (probable) attitude of "She's not my primary job, but if I have the chance to teach her what (I think) she needs to learn along the way, I'll do it." FWIW, she might not bother for someone she thought had less potential than Nynaeve, so it's a weird sort of compliment... (Potential not in the sense of saidar strength, but the possibility of being what AS ought to be. Oddly enough, I think Cadsuane would agree with most of the readers that the current traditions of the AS are stupid and need some drastic modification. I'm betting she would have completely approved of Nynaeve's actions during her AS testing.)

I could have given Nynaeve's perspective a similar statement, such as not letting Cadsuane get away with her "I'm the final authority" act. If I'd spent several hours (or months, like I did with the Cadsuane fan-fic) trying to write a perfect parallel, I'd probably have done it, but I was writing during the judges' evaluation times while watching a speech meet, so it just ain't all that polished, ya-know-whut-I-mean?

The funny thing about reading this chapter now is that I sympathize with both sides. When I first read this in 2009, I was totally on Nynaeve's side and would cheerfully have clobbered Cadsuane with Min's biggest book if I had the chance. Having developed a greater understanding of and sympathy for Cadsuane since then, I can see all sorts of good reasons - as well as some not-so-good but readily comprehensible ones - for her actions here. If I were in Nynaeve's postition, I think I would probably react just like she does - hopefully, including the decision she made at the end. At the same time, if I were in Cadsuane's position, I would probably do exactly the same things she does. So what can I do, but defend both of them?
Anthony Pero
172. anthonypero
I'm beginning to feel about "Cadsuane Debate 2012" the same way I felt about the last 30 minutes of Face/Off with Nic Cage and John Travolta--The movie where I got out of my car (drive in) and literally started kicking and screaming "Somebody just die already! I don't even care who!"

Funny thing is, most people in cars around me just started laughing. They didn't even care that I was disrupting the movie.

So, "Cadsuane Debate 2012", I kick rocks in your general direction!
Alice Arneson
173. Wetlandernw
anthony, are you trying to tell me something?
Paul Long
174. Caveatar
@169 Forkroot
After all, we know that he's somehow essential to the Light winning TG

Yes I think so too. He is the example of two souls in one body which
Dragon and Moridin may have to be at the end to allow Dragon's
Dragonmount Light to restore the Dark Devil Satan Enemy to the
LightBringer Lucifer. How better to fight the Darkness than to light
a gajillion lumen Candle? Then no need to Curese the Darkness.
?? Curese? Or CURSE it even.
Cav (warningless)
Anthony Pero
175. anthonypero


Not you in particular. I didn't blame Nic Cage for Face/Off either. Also, feel free to continue! I'll just stand here and kick rocks while I scream at fictional characters who can't hear me.
Nadine L.
176. travyl
forkroot @ 169.
I don't say Slayer couldn't be the one to get the AMOL but
Slayer killed Hopper and Rand's Aiel dad.
Therefore I only hope he dies (don't care how) - Without meeting Lan or Rand.
Gerd K
177. Kah-thurak
Have you ever considered, that it is neither Cadsuane's goals nor her competence that is lacking, but that her problem is a mirror of Rand's own? She wants to do the right thing and comes up with solutions that make sense to her, but it is her utter lack of compassion that makes it impossible for her to help Rand. For example if she would actually feel pity for Rand after he has been put in the box by the Tower Aes Sedai, she might have been able to help him get over it - but all she sees is how it wil make her job harder.
Don Barkauskas
178. bad_platypus
Looking Glass @112:
Min says you can’t anticipate whether the Pattern will be completely disrupted by an outside force solely by looking at the Pattern.
And since the DO is outside the pattern, he could disrupt it, thus invalidating Min's viewing.

With the confluence of this comment and "Axiomatic Set Theory," I can't resist. This goes right to the heart of a concept called "undecidability" in mathematics. The classic example is the parallel postulate in Euclid's geometry ("Given a line and a point not on the line, there exists a unique line parallel to the given line through the given point."). This was "obvious" to people for thousands of years but could not be proven within the confines of Euclidean geometry. In the 1800's, it was proved to be undecidable: both the postulate and its opposite are consistent with the rest of Euclidean geometry. The way this was shown was constructing models "outside" of Euclidean geometry that obeyed all the other axioms of Euclidean geometry but had different behaviors for parallel lines: spherical geometry (there are no parallel lines---think great circles on a sphere with minor modifications), Euclidean geometry (the parallel postulate holds), and hyperbolic geometry (given the point and line, there are infinitely many lines parallel to the line through the point). Thus, you could assume any one of the three axioms and have the rest of Euclidean geomtry still work.

Similarly, in set theory, the Axiom of Choice (informally, "if you need to make an inifnite number of choices, you can do so") was for the most part assumed to be true but could not be proved within Zermelo-Fraenkel (ZF) set theory. Goedel and Cohen combined to show that in fact it's undecidable in ZF, and since it's so intuitively appealing, the usual start for set theory is ZFC (Zermelo-Fraenkel with Choice).

Even though it seems "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer" (see, I worked a WoT reference in!), the Axiom of Choice has lots of strange consequences. For example, using it you can show it's possible to take a single perfect sphere, cut it into five parts, and by rotating and translating those pieces (but not changing their sizes or shapes) reassemble them into two identical spheres of exactly the same size as the first! Despite results like that, most mathematicians use the Axiom of Choice and just accept the weird consequences.

And by the way, set theorists are people who other mathematicians think are geeks! (Just kidding, to any of you set theorists out there.) (Well, mostly kidding.)
179. AndrewB
bad_platypus @178 - your post would make a White Aes Sedai proud.

Thanks for reading my musings,
180. Freelancer
Wetlandernw @171

Ok then. Agreed that Cadsuane most likely thinks poorly of the majority of White Tower traditions, but while they are in effect, she will certainly use the relative status those very traditions grant her to maximum benefit. Also agreed about her internal opinion of Nynaeve, that she recognizes her strength of will as more significant than her strength of channeling. Anyway, my previous exlamation still stands, she needs to unclench and be more collaborative, less directive.
Alice Arneson
181. Wetlandernw
It would, quite possibly, be helpful. At this point, though, I don't think she thinks she can afford to open up - at least, not beyond her collaboration with the WO. (IIRC, we haven't actually seen much of that beyond the result of bringing Tam to Tear, have we?) And once she knows she knows she can go straight to Perrin, she does bring Nynaeve in on the plan. In a couple of chapters here, she starts doing some really good conversation with Min, too.
Birgit F
182. birgit
After Luc rode north, never to return, whispers said Gitara had convinced him that his fame lay in the Blight, or his fate. Others said it was that he would find the Dragon Reborn there, or that the Last Battle depended on him going. That was about a year before Tigraine disappeared. Myself, I doubt Gitara had anything to do with it, or with Luc.
LoC ch. 16

Nobody really knows what exactly Gitara Foretold. His is fate isn't necessarily to be on the Light side. Maybe it was simply killing Janduin that made him important.
183. yasiru89
It is understood I hope that Hurin isn't some sort of dog who got kicked by its master when it expected a hug on reunion, whereas Nynaeve is, what was it now, ah yes, a 'big girl'.

Hurin (the Borderland thief-taker Hurin acting as a messenger to a united military force of the Borderlands, as opposed to poor little puppy-dog Hurin with an emotional range between loyal and hurt) was well aware that Rand wouldn't be pleased to see just him there, and Rand himself, who has had reason for trust issues when he sees a familiar face since the dream attacks of tDR and recently lost a hand after a similar incident, quite apart from it having actually been Hurin, wasn't being some sort of despicable monster given what was at stake at the encounter. There's a difference between a character doing something awful and an awful reality coming to be, which is a point often lost on readers, as it would appear. Hurin would later come up in Rand's thoughts immediately prior to the climax of this book, and that seeing the man bothered him so, apart from what it made him remember, left me with the impression that Rand still cared.

On Lan, I see Rand's words as an attempt to convince himself to be harder than cuendillar by saying it and thinking it aloud (newly taken up; a sort of in story sign that this path would be futile is that the Shadow is hinted to be able to destroy heartstone, which I thought was clever if intended, but interesting nonetheless). A voice within him, not Lews Therin's, objects, which is crucially a sign that the character hasn't really fallen (to the point of being a wholly bad person as Leigh makes it out to be here) as far as he'd like to show quite yet. What's more important than what thoughts he entertains is what he intends and does and, most importantly, what he prevents himself from doing- not using balefire on the Borderlander encampment at Nynaeve's behest for instance (and thanking her for preventing him). Of course it's all terrible, but terrible things come of desperation sometimes and an attitude of incessant blame is a mistaken one.

The Travelling trick was brilliant. It's these details that tug at vague connections to possible real-world or abstract phenomena that keep me coming back to this series and makes the 'magic system' one of the best there is, getting so much mileage from simple tenets.
If any are interested, here's a nice link I stumbled upon a while back- http://stonedog.org/wot/science.htm

I had as little patience for Corele's misapprehension as Leigh seems to have, but it might be worth noting that she hasn't got as much information as a reader might have (and that from diverse sources, even the Shadow- via Ishamael/Moridin for instance) and lives in the actual universe in question.
Jonathan Levy
184. JonathanLevy
I was not referring to an action of yours. Wortmauer has it right at post 153. In any case, I do not think the matter is worth pursuing.

I keep thinking how ironic it would be for Rand to turn Moridin to the Light
It's a nice idea - and would be quite ironic - but wouldn't it come out of left field at this point? I don't think Moridin's character has been revealed sufficiently to make the readers empathize with his conversion. Having it be a key point in the lightside victory would be a bit of a deus ex machina.

And while it's true that it would give a great significance to the title 'A Memory of Light', this is not a requirement. Many of the titles of the later books have had only a tenuous relation to events in them, e.g. Crossroads of Twilight, Knife of Dreams, Towers of Midnight.


Very much enjoying your discussion of Nynaeve and Cadsuane. Excellent commentary.
185. yasiru89
bad_platypus @178-

Bravo! Always nice to see maths get a nod wherever it may be. I don't quite see how Corele's assumption has to do with axiomatic set theory as the post that brought it up contends, but it's the opportunity that counts!
Ron Garrison
186. Man-0-Manetheran
JonathanLevy @ 184 re. Moridin:
"wouldn't it come out of left field at this point?"
Actually, no. I think there was some strong foreshadowing in Chapter 15 of this book (re-read part 9), and I don't see it as a deus ex machina. I think we have been building toward it and rather than a "from out of left field" moment, it might be the unifying moment.

RobMRobM: While reviewing the comments for Leigh's re-read of Chapter 15, I see you definitely mentioned this theory. I was on hiatus from the re-read at that time and (unfortunately) missed it. You had some great comments:
"...squarely tees up the idea that it would be great to stop the Wheel from spinning out the same battle over and over again. I'm firmly in the "AMOL refers to Moridin" camp and his reconciliation with the light will save the day forever. If so, this chapter is a good early tease in that direction."
187. Wortmauer
anthonypero@166: Others on my (kick the) Bucket List:
You didn't mention Cadsuane. There's, like, no possible way she survives the next book. That her clock is ticking has been foreshadowed so strongly that it would be pretty weird for her to actually survive Tarmon Gai'don. Unless, I guess, she endorses Egwene's plan and "retires" to the Kin, sans Oaths, but I bet Cadsuane will be one of those like Romanda who would prefer to die as Aes Sedai.

I wonder if she'll die taking out Sorilea, thus pointing back to Min's thoughts that their confrontation, when it came, would be "memorable."

Speaking of Wise Ones, I wonder if Amys, Bair and Melaine will kick it battling the likes of Lanfear, Graendal and Moridin in Tel'aran'rhiod. For as many times as we're told it's dangerous in there and if you die there you die in real life , I don't think we've seen anyone die in the World of Dreams except wolves. And Noam, but he's basically a wolf. So I think we're set up to see at least one person die in his/her sleep that way.
Eric Hughes
188. CireNaes
@Wet and Free

Check out ToM Chapter 12: An Empty Ink Bottle Pgg. 189-191 (if you own the hard copy). It validates both of your positions.
Anthony Pero
189. anthonypero

Please see the qualifier at the end of my list. No one else I CARE about will die :)
Rob Munnelly
190. RobMRobM
@187 - Wort: lots of folk have died in the world of dreams, dating back to Darkfriends bumped off by Ishy in TDR. The last battle in the Tower a few chapters had lots of deaths, including Katarine and many other BAs and Nicola! I do think that the Aiel are going to take heavy losses coming up in the LB, likely including Wise Ones.

JL - agreed. Nostradamus, they sometimes call me. LOL (or AMOL).

Roger Powell
191. forkroot
Hey folks! A quick note - then I have to pack for an early morning flight. I just saw that Brandon has confirmed that he will do both prequels after all! (Presumably one is the prequel with Tam's story up through finding Rand and the other one is the story of Moiraine and Lan arriving at the Two Rivers in the nick of time.)

For more information, just "google" it. I won't put the link in since it will likely get this post flagged as spam - and I wanted to make sure this got posted today.
So.... Does everyone like the way this is now?

And all because of a few that just had to have it their way.

Anthony Pero
195. anthonypero
Yesterday I was going to create an official looking Tor account, like, I don't know, one named Irine, maybe, with some shoes on a boardwalk as my avatar, and then post on TTTSNBN that due to artwork constraints, the release date was going to need to be pushed back to June 2013. That would have been an epic April Fools joke...

But then I thought better of it.
196. Looking Glass
Anthonypero @116: Analogies are… dangerous, because it’s hard to demonstrate that they actually apply well enough to extrapolate from.

You could as easily say that the “novel” has not actually been written yet, and that the creator is simply dropping some hints to his adoring fans about what direction he intends to take the plot… maybe giving Min a glance at his notes on the high points, assuming he gets to write his novel and it isn’t shot down or torn into unrecognizable shreds by the publisher (here represented appropriately by the living incarnation of evil).

Which puts some extra meta in this particular metaphor, because at least some of Min’s visions have to have been written (IRL) well before the actual events they refer to, while others might have been written after the events they depict. But then they’re all read before the events they depict. If you want to make this metaphor self-referential, you could then argue that the books Jordan wrote have a different view of fate than the books we read.

Bad_platypus @178: Yeah… that was definitely a bit of math background leaking into my high-fantasy commentary. Two great tastes that taste great together?

Actually, it was more than a bit; a lot of my issues about “predictability” arise, in my own mind at least, from information theory concerns. (If the transmission of information from Destiny to Reality is subject to signal degradation, will destiny’s error-correction scheme be sufficient to overcome channel noise from the Shadow? Are we seeing a cliff effect, where reality perfectly takes its cues from destiny unless some threshold for outside interference is reached and reality becomes meaningless noise?) It fits well enough that it’s occasionally hard to remember that, y’know, the book might not have been written with that perspective first and foremost.

anthonypero @195: Darn, and I had a warehouse full of torches and pitchforks ready to go. Oh, well. This is the internet; I'm sure I can find someone who needs them.
Paul Long
197. Caveatar
@196 Looking Glass
Bad_platypus @178

!!!! Well Done! And dense as poetry or Maxwell's Equations.
Love it.

Nadine L.
198. travyl
forkroot @191
You didn't fool me at all. It was pure happenstance that I, after reading your post, went to check out Brandon's website to look for latest post.
And: it was april 2. when I decided to google it, because I didn't find any info on his site ; )
Karen Fox
199. thepupxpert
fork - well, you got me! I was completely ecstatic for like about 5 minutes until I scrolled down to the rest of the posts.
Sam Mickel
201. Samadai
So, as this thread seems to have died a little bit maybe no one will mind of I post another fiction fiction

Logain rode at the head of his army, they were finally out of Ghealdan and heading down the road to Lugard. He hated having to battle and kill the innocents sent against him, but what other choice was there. To lose the source, it would be like losing his hands at this point, better to die. So, he and his army were heading for Tear knowing full well what that meant. He would procaim himself the Dragon Reborn though he knew it was just a vanity to stay alive.

He had always been a very lucky young man. It had all started just after his dad died and and he inherited his families title. It seemed like things couldn't get any better for the Ablar family. Their long time enemies had exhausted their fortunes in the long feud and had come begging to be allowed to serve to repay the debt. The third son was the last surviving member of the family and he swore allegiance to the House. Even King Johanin had begun to notice the frequency that the Ablar family name came up. Logain was invited to visit house after house amongst the upper nobility of Ghealdan, those families hoping to add the rising noble to their factions. He had several of the finest families offer their daughters hands in marriage. Sadly he knew he couldn't accept.

He was 24 years old when it had happened, he was out with his families retainers on a survey of his land. He remembered the wolf erupting from the foliage to his left, his horse wild with fear bolting away from it. The uncontrolled gallop through the brush, he saw the chasm just as his horse jumped. He knew he wasn't going to make it, and he felt cold as he wished for something to land on. The horse came down and hit something solid with it's hooves and so startled was it, it came to a complete stop, standing over a chasm on a bridge made of air. He felt the connection to the bridge and as he dismounted and pulled his horse to the other side, he felt it begin to disappear. He felt as if all the light in the world was in his grasp, but slipping away, leaving him empty. He felt powerful and tired all at once. When his retainers caught up to him he was back on his horse attempting to recreate what happened, when he could not he motioned for them to follow along until they reached and area of the Chasm that he could jump across.

When he got home, his families oldest retainer took him aside. "Master Logain, I believe it is time for you to know the secret behind your family." The story of your family goes back about a 1000 years to just before the rise of the High King. Master Guaire Amalasan had just been defeated and taken to Tar Valon to be gentled. Your ancestor Aleis was a wilder that Guaire Amalasan had found in a little village inside Dhowlan. He came to respect and greatly admire her. When he was taken your ancestor fled back to Dhowlan to her village. a few months later she gave birth to a son, Reinar. When he was full grown he joined Hawkwings army and became a captain of great reknown. During the downfall he kept the alliance with the regional governor and was made a lord.

Your Grandfather was the last member of your family that could channel, He was taken to Tar Valon and gentled when he couldn't hide what he was doing anymore. That was 40 years ago. Your grandfather kept notes on everything he learned and thought of during that time. Though he was kept in Tar Valon until he died, he snuck out the journal he wrote with one of his friends. The old man had been rummaging through a chest as he talked and pulled out an old worn book. "Master Logain, this is his book, he would want you to have it, I serve faithfully to you and yours."

He had spent years studying the book, learning how to channel. How to summon the void and consume all emotion into the flame. It had taken him six months before he could summon the power everytime he tried. Three years after he had started channeling he had become as proficient as the notes he read allowed. There were already rumors of him abounding around the country. He could no longer hide it when another family moved against him, he had struck out against their army with fire before they could siege his house, and by then it was too late to hide. His family and allies were firmly behind him, and so he proclaimed himself the Dragon.

War had consumed Ghealdan as houses flocked to and against his banner. Word had come that King Johanin and the council had revoked his lordship, but by then it was too late. His army had destroyed the Kings own, and they were now on their way to Tear. Word had reached him that there was Aes Sedai and an army in Lugard, he hoped to get by without too many deaths.

Part 2 another time
Anthony Pero
202. anthonypero
@Looking Glass

Analogies are inherently incomplete. They are simply representative ways of looking at things. They often reveal more about the person who gives them than the actual content. Mine was meant to lead up to the punchline at the end, so it is even less viable ;)
203. Freelancer
You are all welcome.

Zexxes @193

That's always the way, is it not? Don't worry, two weeks goes by fast when you wish it wouldn't.

Nice, Sam.
Paul Long
204. Caveatar
@201 Samadai

I loved it. So Logain Ablar is sane still because the book of instructions
taught him how to do things the correct way and to avoid the insanity which comes with the taint?
The statement that "there is no one alive who could teach you to channel because all those men are dead, while true, is still Aes Sedai twisting."
He learned from a dead man's book. They elided or slipped past the fact
that Champollon translated the Egyptian Glyphs with the Rosetta stone
and no live man spoke or read that language.
Tar Valon bastards. You have much to answer for. All your depository
of knowledge which would let Thom's Nephew learn from a BOOK,
you didn't consider. You enjoy killing them or gentling them and lettting
them die to prove how dangerous those men are and secure your
heroic place as Saviors of the World. There is an adam waiting for you
and only a Sane Male Channeler can save your worthless asses.
I hope Logain Ablar is the one to decide and you had best thank
Nynaeve for healing him. He is your last hope,

Thanks Sam. Clears a lot of ideas up for me.
Write 'er Down.
I do not praise falsely. No need to wonder if I meant it.

Zexxes. You got Number one. Maybe you can get the 211?
Probably wont get to 300 unless someone gets to.....ah the hell with it.
RL is about to give me a case of the redass. Cant even get 2 minutes..

SO, Those dedicated Reds Never had to Gentle One Man Channeler?\
They could have allowed the stored information teach the men.
I have conceived a gentle dislike for them. Galina....you..
Sam Mickel
205. Samadai
Caveatar, no he hasn't eluded the taint, it just manifests a little differently for him. don't have time to finish it today though.
Paul Long
206. Caveatar
OK Sam. Say. Have you considered posting your writing on the
forums? The editor there works better for me. Don't know why.
It has a 10,000 character limit, 2000 words and tends to make
one aware when one (Me) is putting too much in one post.
And I am anxious to see just how it manifests in him. Iron
Control? hmmmmm . Hell, I like him as he is.
Post on, Oh Scribe of the Insightful Gaze.
Paul Long
207. Caveatar
WET and WILD, Wild Child with manners mild.

Cadsuane. She is Ilenya reborn. She went through the rings
and knows it. She also knows that if Lews Rand recognises
her he will go apeshit as a shaved monkey on coke.
She does as she does to prevent that.
I bet Mat Cauthon that before the final final end of the story
she Dances with Him and he Recognises her!
Name the bet an toss the diec.
That explains all her actions for me and I am satisfied that
he has already killed Cadsuane, at the first. She was on the
floor when Elan showed up to 'heal' him.

Padan Fain is Judas the Iscariot.
"Have not I chosen you twelve and One of You Is a Devil"
Before the wine at the last supper he told judas,
"What thou doest, do quickly. And Satan entered into him
and he went out..."
Already a devil, then Satan entered him, Mordeth, and he is going
into the blight to destroy the savior and the Devil that made him
do it.
He will end up hanging in a tree or nailed to one and his intestines
will burst if that is the direction RJ took it.
Else he will end as a traitor and even the devil can relent.
Padan Fain will not.
Probably DarkBringer will be Lightbringer again and if he cuts loose
with his full power of light, Mordeth will be just a puny mob boss.

The bore is still open because when it ruptured Ishy used the Rand
trick to block a closing gateway, and Ishy is keeping an opening into
the Chaos level so he can access the Zero Point Quantum Chaos which
disrupts the pattern. The Superfade is made from that darkness.

Only the use of the counteracting wounds in Rands side I worry about.
But the wound in the side of Christ which supposedly was caught in
the Holy Grail, and brought Life and healing by its power, makes any
sense to me.

OKAY. Fire away.
And if that isn't on topic with Wheel of Time then
School buses aren't yellow, the Pope is a Pentacostal Preacher,
A bear goes out of the woods to crap, and Seattle Wa is the Gobi desert.
LAUGH OUT LOUD. Shut up neighbor. Get a life neighbor. (alan next door)
Did you find the treasure in that map I left you after you pointed out
the Egwene dream stuff?
Nakomi, Gawyn, Egwene, and many others are hinted at to the point
of explanation in that chapter which only causes us to be pissed at
that arrogant Egwene SPYING on her friends so much that we don't
even consider that there is anything else there.
Misdirection. George Eric Weiss, Harry Houdini couldn't have pulled
a more slick and sly sleight of hand,

More other places and if I am right I can show precedence of idea
and if I am wrong I can say , "what? hell no that was about something
else. and just be ever so proud of having it both ways."
I wouldn't but you know how folks are. Sometimes.

Paul Long
208. Caveatar
What the hell happened Here?
Double post.
Oh well one more for the hunny
but Leigh B. Be Back tomorrow.

Alice Arneson
209. Wetlandernw
Caveatar @204 - Well, not really. The taint got them all eventually, and no amount of book-learning would have stopped it. It might, however, have helped them to handle it better; we know that was possible, because Cadsuane did it more than 20 times. Text is quite clear that when the Reds brought a man in, he died very soon after gentling, at least in part because he didn't want to live any more. That's one of my reasons for thinking that Cadsuane figured out a long time ago (and I personally think Norla had something to do with it, but there's NO evidence for that) that helping a man to make a real connection to his own humanity and his loved ones, knowing the value of love, laughter and tears, was key to both sanity and survival for men affected by the taint.

It would be nice to think that men could have channeled safely with enough/the right training, and the Reds were wrong all the time; on the other hand, that would make the Cleansing nothing but cheap theatrics. I don’t think I’d like that… I think they showed fairly conclusively during the Breaking that there wasn’t any way around it.

@207 - Regarding Cadsuane as Ilyena, someone else thought of it:
RANDOM CRAZY LADY: Is there any chance that Cadsuane might be Ilyena reborn?
BRANDON SANDERSON: I...wha?...First of all, I'm not going to answer that. Second of all...EWW! ... And you can quote me on that!
So I don't think it's likely to be true, since Brandon has had access to all the notes. RJ once told someone that Bela was Ilyena's avatar, but in context he was probably joking...

I'll have to go back to the Choss and see what I can find about Egwene. FWIW, my personal theory is that Nakomi is one of the Jenn Aiel who have been... elsewhere... for the last 2500 or so years. I'll have to review things and see what else I can pull out. (Of the text, not my mistletoe target...)
Alice Arneson
210. Wetlandernw
Okay, so I went back and reviewed LOC ch 14. In the in-between-space, you can see the dreams of people who live in other worlds, some of them worlds so strange that Egwene decided she had to avoid them completely. A reminder, then, that there is life in those other worlds, whether they are "other dimensions" or "parallel worlds" or just other worlds around other stars. We're not given that, just that they exist. That would certainly support the theory that the Jenn have been "elsewhere" - such as a Portal Parallel - and, since they're of the same stock as the modern Aiel, there's a good chance they have some accomplished dreamwalkers too. Maybe Nakomi is one of them, and either got into Aviendha's dream, or pulled Avi into her own. Or into TAR, for that matter. Either way, she'd be a very, very powerful dreamwalker to be able to do that.
Paul Long
211. Caveatar
Thanks Alice.
Email me regarding your children and what words are difficult for
Patrick. It is on the facebook thing. With other stuff.
Email me though.
I go to resolve what it was that caused my stroke.
On Topic. I love the wheel of time.

ETA ROFLMAO. Mistletoe Target indeed. Why it is a kiss of course.?
Still LMAO. Make that a standard old wives tail, tale.
Thank you. I needed the laughter just now.
The cleansing of the taint was not just for the men. It was chaos
coating the One Power. Fouling the pattern, not just the men.
But because Cadsuane saved them and Logain was not insane when
they gentled him...well Sam can 'splain it.
212. yasiru89
Wetlandernw @210-

I favour that theory on Nakomi, it seems more apt than most other candidates. The Jenn may have done something similar to what the Ogier are considering with their Book of Translation.

'Eww' is right on Cadsuane being Ilyena. I do think however that either Cadsuane or Egwene may well be that Latra Posae Decume woman from the Age of Legends, mentioned in The Strike at Shayol Ghul.
Paul Long
213. Caveatar
To Edit Post and add to length or to post separately and add to too many posts, that is the question. Whether to post or not to post, whether on topic really is when the topic isn't clearly defined. That is too.

Beats me.
Apparently even though L D Butler her own magnificent self has said she has no objection to having fun. She understood the reason behind the request to the moderators also. And so do I.
A lot of turmoil would have been avoided if Wortmauer had made the request directly to me instead of the moderators.
I would have understood and I would have agreed and I would have offered to help with my own suggestions. In fact after mentioning the moderators because only they can do anything the rest of it was explaining the effects of my too many and too long and too off the topic of the post.
I understood that and I had no objection myself even though it seemed to be asking the usher to tell the loudmouth in the audience to stfu they didn't want the opera spoiled and so on.
Wortmauer did not send a private message to the moderators as is evident that some did because tnh said she had gotten complaints about it and other communications that didn't mind.
The 'out of public scrutiny' didn't let me see the objection so I continued what was objectionable to those who said, "stop this flood of off topic bullshit", even though football scores mean nothing to me and I do not believe they play football in RandLand.
My problem is that I didn't know the behind the scenes private stuff.
The First Objector should have told me like Wortmauer did, flagged the post so the mods saw it, and it would have been fine.
Wort was a bit irritated, and no wonder, so maybe didn't think too clearly about that one little slip of the pen.
I have been posting on the forums and evidently people read it because there are over 6000 views so some freaking body is reading it yet only a few have posted a response. It still doesn't make sense to me.
Hell I know somebody should call BULLSHIT or I don't care for your assumptions, or RJ could NEVER have thought something like that or
well, you know.
The latest thing I noticed myself doing was referring to something from here in a post on the facebook site. No others do that and they do the sitting around our own private club, (I think. Invitation seems to be necessary to join in. I don't really understand how facebook works.
Then I realized that I had done something I don't do. I believe one has a right to face his accusers.
That is why I added the notification to the 'gimme respect or die' guy who prompted me, after post after post after post of badgering Wetlandernw, and I went back and found the supposed slur which must have an apology or blood must flow, and I found it and it was not insulting in any way and then it was "you are distorting the truth of what you did to me" and silly assed insolent disrespectful inability to tell the straight fucking truth, congenital or demonic possesion caused.
I wrote a little ditty to suggest Mistletoe as the answer because it was the thing to kill Baldur and nothing else could.
I liked it and I meant the badger to see it. I did not send it to Alice behind asshole's back.
Now I think if I post on the rereader facebook I am talking behind the back of one who does not read it. I want to gag and vomit when I think I am doing that.
If I post on the forum threads, then no matter if it is read I have no idea
if I am offending, pleasing, disagreeing or being pleasant or even communicating at all.
So, Neither Forum thread, nor facebook, nor private communication with email nor shoutboxes which were semi public under certain circumstances are suitable.
The disagreement about what constitutes being on topic and whether a scroll finger gets tired and all the stuff we all know if we have read this public place is just like any Public Inn. Lots of shit gets started in a Hell
like Tuon wanted to see. That is the place you learn about the people. Not academic or government institutions where the public only sees the result later and too late at that.
I early had the idea that some posters were friends and that they seemed to be discussing with reference to facts which had not been there in the public posts. I had no objection to that.

The thing is I may be the only one here who has read and considered
EVERY comment in the entire reread. I bet Leigh hasn't read them all.
Nor the moderators. nor any other poster and sure as hell not the one who never reads anything but its own links. Never. I tested. I am damned sure that is correct.
Response number one is usually, "I got it.", or "wheeee", or some such that makes it a race for first post which will never again be read so there is no need of saying anything in it.
"Thanks Leigh." seems reasonable enough but Leigh doesn't post a comment with , "I expect thanks" nor is there anywhere in any of the Wot books which mention this board at all. Only in private communications by people who have been at the cons and who have information not available to the rest of us.

You see my quandary.
Not that all will agree and most will probably not read this far.
I wanted to read and understand. Still Learning- As Always.
And the reread helped. If I wanted to repeat my own well worn path
I would have no trouble. I have read the Old Testament 75 times and the New Testament 150 times. No problem. Even though at one time I could quote most of it from memory.
That doesn't aid understanding. Only the person who says, honestly of course, "you are the dumbest asshole I ever had the displeasure of hearing and you don't know that shit stinks, BUT I am so great and understanding that I will explain it to you one more time.", can break
anyone out of that inescapable groove of their own viewpoint.
That one we should appreciate and thank those who agree for the encouragemen, yet understanding is not a majority opinion thing.
Hell, look who we have 'thought that we did it) elected to run the frigging country . All those politicians from George the First Washington, to AL the internet inventor to all the criminal bastards who fail to pass good laws or even give a damn if anyone notices or cares.
Same stuff here.
I don't get it at all.

I do know that RJ (the whole hive mind and drones and you know what I mean it aint that damn difficult to understand) and the rereread and Tor helped me to heal. The posters on this site helped me to heal and reconnect what had been lost. Much more than I had realized.
I thought to preserve that lost stuff just in case it happened again and I didn't want to be Charlie Gordon. I wanted to save it for myself but I know if it happens again I won't understand half of it.
The truth is that there is no need to preserve anything. It means nothing to anyone but me. Useless to all else and offensive to some.
Let it go. All of it is going to be gone forever soon enough and it doesn't really matter to anyone but me.
I am still not fully awake and you can judge for yourselves if in fact there is any thing worthwhile in the awakening memories and thoughts.
Apparently not for there is no communication to me either way. except a token note that "I read it. Its ok. Go ahead. We don't mind"
and I feel like Rita who was told to stay in her room and play with her toys by herself and not disturb the grown folks.
I would trade the entire internet for one day to play in that same room with her and with her toys. In fact all the days left to me.
I just hope I see it coming. I will go see my great great Greatly God Damned progenitor sooner than I had hoped. Fire is the devil's only friend and it is my friend as well. It means more to me than all churches and God's on Earth and lying bastards faking miracles on tv when the real thing is right before my eyes. Fire burns and the brutal truth burns as well but they both burn the soul clean.

I dearly loved the Raven sale item sequence and it had nothing to do with anything but the love of soul to soul communication.
I love the stories about those I loved and still love but they mean nothing to anyone but me.
I will continue to read and I will not balefire anything else. It is up to
the people who administer this site to do that. They can do it before I can select all and delete one of the posts.
I will continue my so called stories in private communications because then I will know the result of doing so.
I would love to write a poem for Patrick to read and in words and rhythm easy for him because he has the purity of soul to not harm any with it. By definition he is innocent.
"Whom the finger of God has touched is holy. Let no man hinder him."
is one old way of saying it.'
I mean Patrick and I mean Rita and I mean Jimmy who watched the Phoenix and who my dad thought worthy of burning his food earning fingers to the blood for. I thought it was worth it too.

And I mean one of my own grandchildren who everyone thought would not be 'normal', and I mean another who everyone thought would not live because of one kidney not formed and the other only half formed and failing. Daisy she is named and the Sun indwelling flower she is.
Still with us too.

So, folks, tell me what you think and I mean any who have read this far.
It means a lot to me to hear from others. I know what I think and I am sometimes in error. (had to do a joke. needed to.)

Today a new post comes up and this will probably not be read at all.
Tough on me. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
At least it will not interfere with the new one and can die a silent death.

Cav, no warning
214. Freelancer

Flowers for Algernon was, after Poe, the most impactful short novel I ever read in my growing up years.

Does the Facebook page allow "us" to vent about "them"? Yes it does. And I can understand that being seen as objectionable. Everyone is permitted to vent, and as you've noticed, doing so here can be counterproductive to the intent of this forum, so each approaches their own balance. Much of what has transferred to there was done privately in shoutboxes betwixt us one to one. The soonest return of those will be welcome.

BTW, your submission on TGS pt 22 regarding that subject above was rather profound, a good legalistic example of why one should remain silent once accused. Their own words, and all that...
Karen Fox
215. thepupxpert
Cav@ 213 - I read all of your posts. I read all of everyone else's too. I may not understand them all (i.e. I didn't remember Nokami at all!), and sometimes my eyes glaze over, but I do read them. I may not have a lot to add but I read and appreciate everyone taking the time to post on this thread.
Alice Arneson
216. Wetlandernw
Caveatar, I can't pretend to respond to your whole post (there's a lot there!), but for what little it's worth, I've read nearly every comment since January 2009. There are two exceptions. Extemely long posts, when I have very little time, sometime only get a scan rather than the in-depth reading they deserve; this applies to more than just you, in case you're worried. :) The other exception is that when someone seems to post only to be negative or to carry on a personal feud (non-WoT) with another individual, I do an extremely superficial scan to confirm that, yes indeed, it's just another one of those. I don't feel any need to read those!

Speaking of the ones you don't need to read, there was one a couple of years ago where someone was getting rathere abusive toward the other commenters in general. When he really crossed the line and made a comment full of profanities and obscenities with the clear purpose of offending as many people as possible, the moderator (Torie, at the time) disemvowelled his post. It was hilarious. He got the hint.
Dawn Boyall
218. deebee

I read everything on this forum. I don`t always understand your references, but that`s my failing. When you explain the connections you have made I realise that I`ve been slow-your association of words and ideas is wonderful And I`m a person who does cryptic crosswords for fun.

Posters on this site sometimes have the most amazing insights into characters and events. I can read a post and think there was a real flash of brilliance which makes me see things in a new light. Your suggestion that Rand will die to redeem Moridin was one of those.

But many people here have been great to read, ponder and occasionally reply to. I don`t have the depth of knowledge of the books that others do, I either have a very poor memory or a mere three or four readings is not enough!

Wetlander in particular often casts a new slant on things -I`m glad she`s still pursuing the Nakomi and other worlds theory.
But it`s almost time for Subwoofer to return, yay!
Paul Long
219. Caveatar
@ Freelancer

Thank you. Very helpful to me. I now understand the facebook thingy.
See you there probably.

Free. I need someone to respond by email to a couple of questions I have. I need of assistance. If you have time.
Would you? Email or facebook reply
John Massey
220. subwoofer
Rand- giant poopy head. Yep, that about sums it up nicely. How can one person fail so epically at so many different things in one chapter? Edit- hang on, I forgot about Suffa, but anyways- Mad skillz, or maybe just the madness, I dunno, but the guy really sucks here. Lan, the Borderland armies, getting trigger happy with that access key, and Hurin, of all things? Gah.

It is almost like Rand is playing "opposites" today. Looks at a list, plans for the most logical solution and then does the exact opposite of that.

.... and Hurin, of all things? Gah!

Rand, dude- Lan? C'mon now... bros before err... ahem. LEAVE NO MAN LAN BEHIND. What kind of sense does that make anyways? The war is at the Borderlands, the biggest push will be at the Gap, Rand should at least send a contingent there anyways... perhaps some Asha'man that Rand has been skirting... don't get me started on that... gnhhh, gnghh, gnghh,

.... and Hurin, of all things? Gah!

Like Howard Jones said, "things can only get better"...

Irene Gallo
221. Irene
Hey Guys,

Please forgive the intreuption but...I need some help! Does anyone know a juicy badass quote or two associated with these charcaters:
Alice Arneson
222. Wetlandernw
Mat - "Well, that killed the goat!" when someone went too far.

That's one of my favorites from the whole series. Will think on more...
John Massey
223. subwoofer
"It has to be there at the Last Battle. Nothing says it can't be used before then. Nothing says it can't.

"Swords aren't the be-all and end-all, you know. I could do fairly well
against either of you, I think, if you had a sword and I had my

"Everything always changes. The best plan lasts until the first arrow leaves the bow."

"Women are like...goats..."


'But your soul is not Brown. I can see it...Your soul is of a pure white, Verin...Like the Light itself.'

"'I have to go order people I care about to slaughter another group of people I care about."


"If you watch the wolf too hard, a mouse will bite you on the ankle."

"Death cannot be healed, Rand. You are not the Creator."

"There is a saying in Cairhien.... 'Take what you want and pay for it.' Siuan and I took the path we wanted, and we knew we would have to pay for it eventually."



John Massey
224. subwoofer
If somebody else sent them, why did they not tell him? They're all Darkfriends, aren't they? And why me Moiraine? Why me? Rand is the bloody Dragon Reborn!"


"As for you, Perrin... There are many threads woven in the Pattern, and some are as black as the Shadow itself. Take care one of them does not strangle you"


"The Light burn me!.... Are you trying to kill us, boy? Haven't you ever heard those things explode tems times as hard for as as for fire? Fireworks are the next thing to Aes Sedai work, boy."

..."You are trying to kill us.... If I decide I want to die, I will go to the Royal Palace when we reach Caemlyn, and I'll pinch Morgase!"

..."I am not afraid, you mud-footed swineherd... I am shaking with rage because I'm traveling with a goat-brained lout who might kill the pair of us because he cannot think past his own-"

Thom to Mat about the sensative subject of Aldura's nightflowers.

Kimani Rogers
225. KiManiak

I'll have to wait until I get home to check the books; I don't have Sub's recall (and like Wetlander, I would've picked Mat's "That killed the goat," when Joline went too far).

Might I suggest posting the request on the current thread (TGS reread part 26)? I'm willing to bet more of the regulars are checking that thread right now, and could provide some doozies.
Irene Gallo
226. Irene

I may do that...I didn't want to derail an ongoing conversation but, hey, a new one goes up tomorrow, right?
Theresa Gray
227. Terez27
One of my favorite Mat quotes:
"I don’t bloody care about your bargains with anybody else, you daughter of the sands," Mat snapped. So his irritation was not that well under control. A man could only take so much.

Gasps rose among the women behind her. Something over a thousand years ago a Sea Folk woman had called an Essenian soldier a son of the sands just before trying to plant a blade in his ribs; the memory lay tucked inside Mat Cauthon’s head, now. It was not the worst insult among the Atha’an Miere, but it came close. Renaile’s face gorged with blood; hissing, eyes bulging in fury, she leaped to her feet, that moonstone-studded dagger flashing in her fist.

Mat snatched it out of her hand before the blade could reach his chest and shoved her back into her chair. He did have quick hands. He could still hold on to his temper, too. No matter how many women thought they could dance him for a puppet, he could -"You listen to me, you bilge stone." All right; maybe he could not hold it. "Nynaeve and Elayne need you, or I’d leave you for the gholam to crack your bones and the Black Ajah to pick over what’s left. Well, as far as you’re concerned, I’m the Master of the Blades, and my blades are bare." What that meant exactly, he had no idea, except for having once heard, "When the blades are bare, even the Mistress of the Ships bows to the Master of the Blades." "This is the bargain between you and me. You go where Nynaeve and Elayne want, and in return, I won’t tie the lot of you across horses like packsaddles and haul you there!" (ACOS 39, "Promises to Keep")
And one of my favorite Moiraine quotes:
"Is that the way you all feel? You are all eager to run off to Illian and forget about Trollocs, and Halfmen, and Draghkar?" She ran her eyes over them – that stony glint playing against the everyday tone of voice made Rand uneasy – but she gave no one a chance to speak. "The Dark One is after you three, one or all, and if I let you go running off wherever you want to so, he will take you. Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself." (TEOTW 13, "Choices")
Nadine L.
228. travyl
Irene, quote not from, but associated with Mat: (KOD, 37)
"Crossbows and men with heart. You never had more than this, did you, Highness."
[i]"I told you," Mat said. "I had enough."
Nadine L.
229. travyl
This is not technically a quote or badass, but I like it: Mat, TDR, 32:
He tried to look sure and confident, the sort of man others had better not trifle with, a man with the power of the White Tower behind him. A long way behind me, I hope.
Theresa Gray
230. Terez27
More Mat quotes. If not precisely what you're looking for. Hard to fish without context.

"You are she. Birgitte, for true. Burn my bones to ash, it’s impossible. How? How?"

"Elayne and Nynaeve know and kept it from me, true? I weary of secrets, Birgitte, and they harbor secrets as a grain barn harbors rats. They’ve become Aes Sedai, eyes and hearts. Even Nynaeve is twice a stranger, now."

"A Wisdom isn't supposed to think of herself as a woman, is she? Not a pretty woman. But you do, don't you? Now. You can't make yourself forget that you're a pretty woman, now, and it frightens you. Everybody changes."
Barry T
231. blindillusion
"Luck is a horse to ride like any other."

"I caught a badger. Want to let it go on the village green?"

"Bad habits always pay off in the long run."

"What's life like if you don't take a chance now and then?"

"Always leave a way out, unless you really want to find out how hard a man can fight when he’s nothing to lose." (or perhaps that entire passage with Lan)

Give me your trust, said the Aes Sedai.
On my shoulders I support the sky.
Trust me to know and to do what is best,
And I will take care of the rest.
But trust is the color of a dark seed growing.
Trust is the color of a heart’s blood flowing.
Trust is the color of a soul’s last breath.
Trust is the color of death.

Give me your trust, said the queen on her throne,
for I must bear the burden all alone.
Trust me to lead and to judge and to rule,
and no man will think you a fool.
But trust is the sound of the grave-dog’s bark.
Trust is the sound of betrayal in the dark.
Trust is the sound of a soul’s last breath.
Trust is the sound of death.

Give me your trust, said the king on high...

Give me your trust, said the lady and lord...

Give me your trust, said the love of your life...

Trust is the taste of death.

Kimani Rogers
232. KiManiak
If we're going to do quotes about Mat, why not the verse dedicated to him:
We'll toss the dice however they fall,
and snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
then follow Lord Mat whenever he calls,
to dance with the Jak o' the Shadows.
If we're going for a quote that people will immediately identify him with:
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain. It's time to toss the dice
If we're going for a quote of respect from a fellow general (Karede):
Brave, but not overly brave....he is...adaptable. A man of many layers.
These were just a few quick ones from KOD. I'm thinking there are some good ones in ACoS (Mat and Birgitte, Mat and Tylin, Mat and the SuperGirls) and WH (Mat and Tylin, Mat and Tuon, Mat and, well, almost anyone in Ebou Dar).
John Massey
233. subwoofer
"Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?" -- Rand al'Thor

Terry McNamee
234. macster
@107 Matthew1215: Hmmm. It's possible that the Pattern would rather Rand be killed than stay dark and destroy reality. On the other hand, if Rand dies then there is no champion of the Light and the Dark One will escape and win, so I can't see the Pattern setting up for that eventuality. I stand by what I said: it was a prophecy of future events which were geared toward testing Rand's knowledge (and restraint), but the Borderlanders misinterpreted it and went too far. Possibly because they were encouraged by any Black Ajah with them.

@126 Wetlander: *thunderous applause*

@leighdb: And much thanks to you as well for your graceful intercession.

@Caveatar, Man-o-Manetheren, and RobM: I'm right there with you and have been for quite some time now. Moridin could be saved, I think he will be, and it may be that he has to be. I have to wonder if the link between him and Rand is (part of) how that will be accomplished... Though fork is right that Slayer will surely have a role in the Light's victory too, and Fain...

@171 Wetlander: "I'm betting she would have completely approved of Nynaeve's actions during her AS testing." --I agree!

@forkroot: Your April Fools joke was evil.

Also, Free and Wet: awesome debate about Cads and Nynaeve. You both make it very easy to see both sides.
Matthew Hunter
235. matthew1215
macster@234: There are explicit references in the text to the Pattern preferring a dead Dragon to a dark Dragon. I'm thinking it's in Ishy's musings on sha-rah somewhere. What it boils down to is simple: If the Dragon dies before whatever final confrontation is supposed to take place, *neither* side wins. Why do you think Ishy spent so much time ordering people not to kill Rand? If Rand gets turned, Dark Side wins. We don't know what exactly happens if Rand dies before the confrontation, but we know that doesn't equate a win for the Dark Side. There's no reason the Pattern wouldn't spin out a failsafe to deal with Rand if he doesn't sort himself out.
236. DougL
I don't have a big problem with Natrin's Burrow because I doubt anyone there had any Pattern related significance; in that removing them wouldn't unravel the Pattern. It was a pretty insulated community. I don't think he would have Balefired the borderlanders, maybe pelted them with hailstones or something, but you never know with dark Rand.

I freaking had Cadsuane and everything she's ever done, she is a tyrant. I don't like that she had anything to do with bringing Tam to Rand and Rand being healed. Nynaever is smart enough to have thought of that herself, why did the authors need to hold on to Cadsuane?
237. ajmills
Cadsuane is really annoying me a bit now. While she can stand up for other people, and dish out praise on rare occasions (like when Min was voicing her thoughts about Callandor), she really could do with learning a bit of humility herself. Actually, Aes Sedai could, as a whole, do with being a little bit more humble -- I had hoped Egwene would bring this to them, but it looks like she's just as bad herself, now. Oh, I know she's Amyrlin proper now and needs a certain air of authority, but, you know...

I had to have a look to refresh my memory, but to create a gateway by a male channeler, it was done by "creating a similarity in the Pattern". Perhaps you have to know one end of the gateway to create that similarity (how can you create something similar if you don't know it?) -- seeing as you can't know the destination unless you've been there before and know it well, you have to know your local area.

As for warp drive, well, that is actually theoretically possible -- we just don't have the technology and the ability to create the amount of power needed to drive it.
William Carter
238. wcarter
@237 I thought a similarity is how women travel (Rand seemed to think if a man tried that the pattern would tear him apart. Men travel by "boring a hole between two points and creating a "fold" in the pattern until the two places are right next to each other. Egwene said if a women tried that, she could litteraly slip between the strands of the pattern and dissapear.
In other words, men fold space with the power and women teleport with the power.


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