Jun 30 2011 1:37pm

Rothfuss Reread: The Name of the Wind, Part 11: Every Tale Has Deep Roots Somewhere

Patrick Rothfuss reread by Jo WaltonWelcome to part 11 of my ridiculously detailed re-read of Patrick Rothfuss’s Kingkiller Chronicles. This week’s post covers chapters 66-70 of The Name of the Wind, but also contains extensive spoilers for the whole book and the whole of The Wise Man’s Fear—these discussions assume you’ve read all of both books. It will fill you with spoilers if you read beyond the cut without reading both books first. We’ll still be here with our speculations if you rush out and read them now and come back.

Abbreviations: NW = The Name of the Wind. WMF = The Wise Man’s Fear. DT = Day Three, the forthcoming final volume. K = Kvothe or Kote when I can’t figure out what to call him and I’m feeling Kafkaesque. MT: Myr Tariniel. D=Denna

Useful links: The Sleeping Under the Wagon post, in which there are lots of theories. The re-read index. The map.


Chapter 66 is Volatile, which is of course the bone-tar.

The bone-tar canister gets too cold and explodes, there’s a fire in the Fishery, Kvothe rescues Fela. It’s interesting that he doesn’t do it by magic but that he needs magic to do it. He uses a binding to break the drench to soak himself, but he accomplishes the actual rescue entirely physically.

And of course, wouldn’t you know it, it makes him miss his appointment with Denna. He loses one of his two sets of clothes and his only pair of shoes and he’s badly hurt, but he limps to Imre late to find her — and she has left with somebody, a man who might be a patron. This is the first mention of Denna’s mysterious patron and could be the first time she meets him. It would be paranoid to think he sabotages the bone tar, wouldn’t it?

Deoch doesn’t recognise him, so he can’t be local. And Deoch’s description is “White-haired, wealthy, you know the type.” This is pretty much our only description of Master Ash. Now does that sound like Bredon? Yes, I’m sorry to say it does. Does it sound like Cinder? Maybe. Cinder’s white-haired, but not old. You wouldn’t say “You know the type” about somebody like Cinder I don’t think.

And the chapter ends with Kvothe enjoying hearing people talking about him. (If he lived here, he’d be googling himself ten times a day.)

He doesn’t think back to it, but the shoes he lost are the secondhand pair the nice shoemaker in Tarbean gave him.


Chapter 67 is A Matter of Hands.

The title refers to Kvothe and Kilvin both damaging their hands in the disaster.

Kvothe goes back to the Fishery which is deserted and partially wrecked by the events of the morning, and finishes making his blue emitters. He doesn’t rest.

Kilvin comes back and jokes with him about leaving the lamp around and the number of things in his pockets. He says “Expect disaster every seven years” and we learn what “Kote” means.

He explains to Kilvin how he got through the fire, and Kilvin explains how he put it out — a sample of the stuff for a link and “am empty heat eater.” We don’t know what a heat-eater is at this point, but we see Kvothe make one later in the Draccus incident.

Kilvin mentions that Elodin knows the Name of Fire, and there may be other people there who do. Kvothe is disbelieving, even though he has seen Elodin call the Name of Stone. He says “Those are just stories.” I think this is wrong. He saw the wall in the Rookery collapse. He knows it’s real.


Chapter 68 is The Ever Changing Wind, a title it seems to me we have seen before. Yes, Chapter 46, the very chapter I was just mentioning, where Elodin breaks the wall. But there’s no naming here, just Fela and Auri and Mola and a passing breath of the absence of D. And it’s interesting that this chapter title that says “ever changing” is the only one that is repeated and therefore stays the same.

Kvothe is grumpy because his poverty and the precariousness of his situation. This hasn’t changed at all, except because of the losses in the fire, he’s just thinking about it. He buys boots with the money from the emitters.

Then he meets Fela in the Eolian. I like Fela, and this is where she gets characterised. Fela grew up listening to fairytales and asking “Why doesn’t she push the witch out of the window? Why doesn’t she poison the ogre’s food... why doesn’t she save herself?” And now she has had to be saved. If anybody thought Rothfuss was being dumb about D (as opposed to Kvothe being dumb about her) this ought to be enough to dispel that. Fela’s one of the ten percent of people at the University who are women. She’s a scriv. She sculpts. She’s very bright. And Kvothe puts his hand comfortingly on hers and: “Her hand wasn’t the delicate fragile thing that I had expected. It was strong and calloused...” Fela’s exactly the kind of minor character you never see in patriarchal narratives.

And she listened to fairytales and asked why the girls didn’t save themselves. It may also be worth noting that we don’t know any of those stories. Or rather, they sound much more like our world’s stories — like Rapunzel and Jack the Giant Killer. We have not heard any stories in this world where there are witches and windows or ogres and food — but Fela’s Mondegan, so they are probably Mondegan stories.

Then she gives him a cloak. This is his third cloak — first the one he got for his twelfth birthday from Shandi in the troupe, then the one he bought on a fripperer’s cart in Tarbean, and now this one. He gets another from the Maer and then a fifth from Felurian. I expect he’ll stick with that one. Fond of cloaks.

D sees Fela putting the cloak on him and looking as if she’s embracing him, in a typical romantic comedy misunderstanding. I wish he’d give D up and get involved with Fela — not now, when Fela’s happy with Sim, but then, when she gave him the cloak. Fela could have helped him become human. Oh well.

At least he doesn’t chase after D, he stays and has a drink and then goes back to the university. Fela tells him she’s studying with Elodin, and he has weird methods, and is more than half mad.

Then he starts to see Auri and panics because he thinks she might have been hurt when the bone tar went down the drains. He finds Mola and persuades her to come and help if Auri needs help — and Mola follows him onto the rooftops. They find Auri and she gives Kvothe a mysterious coin:

“It will keep you safe at night. As much as anything can, that is.” It was shaped like an Aturan penance piece, but it gleamed silver in the moonlight. I had never seen anything like it.

I think it’s an Amyr coin. I think this because “Aturan penance piece” invokes the Aturan church, and what else might they have had. I think this connects to Auri naming him her Ciridae in WMF.  Also, keep him safe at night — he’s about to be attacked.

When he asks her if she saw the fire, her reply is “Holy God, yes,” which is an oath we have heard nobody else swear — they say by Tehlu’s this and that, and they say other things, but not this. I think she may have been an angel.

The sea salt, full of trace minerals, has cost him more than he can afford. Again, we see Auri as humanizing Kvothe — he cares about her, he cares for her.

When he says Mola can leave before he plays, she urges her to stay and says he has a voice like a thunderstorm, Maedre again. Oh, and she has come down from the roof because the moon came out of the clouds. Auri doesn’t want the moon to see her.

Going back with Mola, they discuss why telling people about Auri would be a disaster — it would get her locked up. And then clothes — Mola is surprised Auri won’t take second hand clothes because she doesn’t look Cealdish. I do like how the different places have actual different culture and customs.


Chapter 69 is Wind or Women’s Fancy which sounds like half a proverb. In fact it sounds like the proverb in Joan Aiken’s A Small Pinch of Weather which goes “Men and weather, women and cats.” And we get the whole proverb: “No fickleness in flight like wind or women’s fancy.”

He goes to Imre with excuses but really to look for D in vain. Deoch says she’s left town, and he also says “I might not be one of you University folk but I can see the moon on a clear night” which sounds like he can see things that are very clear, but actually has a subtler meaning. It’s amazing how often the moon gets mentioned casually. And of course, he’s talking about his experiences with D. And he says it was two years back. If D is the age she looked when Kvothe met her, she’s have been fourteen then, ick. But she has always been a girl on the edge of being a woman. “I suppose she was younger but I can’t say she seems any older now.”

Deoch says women hate Denna, because men are attracted to her, and Kvothe says that must be why she’s lonely. And she disappeared “Sometimes for a span. Sometimes for months.” I wonder if she is drawn into Fae and doesn’t come out again in the same place. Now when I read this before it made no sense, it makes no sense for somebody to wander off because they’re fickle by nature. Also, Deoch’s explanation about how hard it is for her to make a living when she has no family and nothing but charm makes sense and is sympathetic, but how much more when she has to keep moving.

And on the way home he is attacked by professional footpads paid by Ambrose to kill him, and fights them off with some magnesium shavings and bluff. Then going home he finds a note from D in the window, too late, as always. He cleverly attaches hairs to leaves to make him impossible to find using the magic dowser they have, and while watching the leaves blow about meets Elodin, who tells him the courtyard is the Quoyan Hayel, the House of the Wind. Then he goes home, reads the note, and realises the men might have some of his blood on their knife from his wound. He puts his bloody shirt into a wine bottle and floats it down the river.

The first time I read this I felt whiplash, from the leisurely drinking with Deoch to the attack and fleeing, and then what comes afterwards jolting him right out of everything.


Chapter 70 is Signs. Signs of the Chandrian — which he encounters entirely by chance.

He wakes up not knowing where he is, and we don’t know either — and he’s barricated in a room in some waterside inn in Imre, where he went in the middle of the night. He has breakfast and frets about the attack and then suddenly overhears “blue fire” and suddenly his priorities are entirely reset and he has to go off to find out about the Chandrian that had been in Trebon a day ago. He finds out that Trebon is about seventy miles away by road — after a lovely conversation in which the innkeeper wants to give distances in days, which is very plausible and frustrating and exactly the way people never normally write in fantasy.

He goes to see Devi, and she cleans and stitches his wound. She tells him the rumour that he’s the next Taborlin and blinded his attackers, and agrees to spread the rumour that next time he’ll kill them, to make them think twice about taking the job. And then he starts bargaining for twenty talents for a horse, putting up everything he has — Rhetoric and Logic, his lute, his pipes, and a promise of sharing a way in to the Archives if he finds one.

And we’ll stop there and start next week with buying the horse.


Comments from last week

Lots of great stuff as usual.

Broken Tree

Artful Magpie. Herewiss13 and RobMRobM and Lambson agree that Kvothe’s Broken Tree aspect refers to his alar being like a bar of Ramston Steel, the best knife you ever have until it breaks. His alar must break sometime in between where we are and the frame, in DT, and this may be how he becomes Kote. Dwndrgn thinks the broken tree is the broken family heritage from the Lackless side. DEL thinks

the “Broken Tree” aspect has multiple meanings, referenceing both Kvothe’s hidden identity as a Lackless(Lockless) heir...AND later on as a foreshadowing of the breaking of the Cthaeth.

The Lethani is a defense against the influence of the Cthaeth. We know that Cthaeth has the ability to see the future and can influence things to the most likely path of destruction, but the Lethani allows people to reach the point of doing what is right by the Lethani. Even on the path to destrcution there are paths that led back to a world free from the Cthaeth’s influence.

In the framing story we have multiple evidence that the ill-made house of Jax(Fae) is open, with Faen encroching everywhere. The Creation War is ongoing.

Ongoing, or maybe Creation War II? I wonder about that Penitent King — especially in view of “Aturan penance piece.”

Department of Imaginary Linguistics

Artful Magpie said in response to GBrell:

“From Chapter 51, we know that the rune ”Teh“ translates as ”lock.“ What does that make ”Tehlu“ translate as? I read someone conjecture that it means ”first lock,“ but it wasn’t clear where he was getting the”first“ portion.”

The first day of the span is Luten. Since the seventh day is given as either Chaen or Caenin and we know that Chan/Chaen means seven, it seemed likely that the first seven days in a span were named according to their number. Luten would then be first day or day one.

So Tehlu is “first lock” or possible, as Shalter suggests “locked first.” The Department of Imaginary Linguistics is promoting Artful Magpie to E’Lir.

Jo Walton is a science fiction and fantasy writer. She’s published two poetry collections and nine novels, most recently Among Others, and if you liked this post you will like it. She reads a lot, and blogs about it here regularly. She comes from Wales but lives in Montreal where the food and books are more varied.

Ellie Virgo
1. Egglie
Just wanted to say how much I am enjoying this re-read. I loved the books but I missed layers and layers of stuff! You, and all the commenters, have given me a real appreciation of how clever this story is.

You've also made me realise that sometimes it's more fun to read a series before it's finished and enjoy the speculation - and given that I bought the name of the wind specifically because the uk cover made no mention of it being part of a series, that's pretty good going :-)
Ashley Fox
2. A Fox
The coin-I suspect it may be a key for one of the locks of the four plate door. The locks that are not shaped typicaly, the coin that is also not typical. This realy is a hunch.

The attack on K was NOT from Ambrose.

The attackers state they had missed him in Anilin.

"We've lost him twice already. I'm not having another cock up like in Anilin"

K joined the caravan from Tarbean which was heading to Anilin, he got off earlier at Imre. K had not met Ambrose yet, let alone done anything to make Ambrose want to kill him. The assasins could be from the Chandrian, but I rather think they are from the Church in relation to events with Skarpi.

Also I suspect that Denna is the one that gave them the hair for the finder.
Steven Halter
3. stevenhalter
One thing that I find quite interesting is the iron grate that Auri uses to go into the underthing. Kote can't seem to figure out what closes it as:

I felt around in the dark under the grate, trying to figure out how Auri kept it closed.

He has told us he is good with locks, but this doesn't seem to be one he is good with at all. From the first time he saw the grate (chapter 51) he noticed that there were runes engraved on the bars of the grate. It seems to me that the grate is probably kept closed through sygaldry of some sort. Auri has either figured out the sygaldry or put it there in the first place. K is usually pretty quick on the uptake so it seems odd that this hasn't occured to him.
Lurking Canadian
4. Lurking Canadian
@2: Maybe, but I think you're reading too much into it. It's also possible that these are just a pair of low-life scoundrels who kill people in more than one town. Anilin is just a reference to a contract they screwed up.

On the one hand, Rothfuss doesn't waste words, so maybe it's a clue. On the other hand, it's more of that "local collie" stuff, suggesting that even the minor characters have backstories.

Besides, doesn't Sleet in book 2 basically admit to hiring this particular pair of low-lifes for Ambrose?
Skip Ives
5. Skip
The coin seems to be a reference to Taborlin's tools, mentioned right back at the beginning of Chapter 1 "Key, Coin, and Candle", which also makes me wonder about K's sword. Folly indeed.

Rothfuss does seem to go out of his way to tie Kvothe and Taborlin together, picking up the same tools is only natural.
Sim Tambem
6. Daedos
@4 I agree. The footpads were doing something else in Analin. Could it be related? Yes. Did it have anything to do with Kvothe? I seriously doubt it. That being said, it could have had something to do with Denna (she does mention running into expected trouble in Analin), but I prefer the "'s more of that "local collie" stuff, suggesting that even the minor characters have backstories." theory. It seems more likely.

When he asks her if she saw the fire, her reply is “Holy God, yes,”
which is an oath we have heard nobody else swear — they say by Tehlu’s
this and that, and they say other things, but not this. I think she may
have been an angel.

I seem to remember Sim using similar language (at least in WMF). Conversely, it is interesting that Wil uses Tehlu's name for swearing somewhat regularly. Strange, considering their backgrounds. Then again, they live in a relatively small world (as far as we've seen). Turns of phrase would spread over the centuries.

That being said, Auri could very well be one of the Amyr, or an angel of sorts (Fae maybe). Only, would an angel swear like that? I'd expect her not to swear at all.
Clay Blankenship
7. snoweel
I've started highlighting some of these significant passages on my Kindle; if any Kindle readers wants to "follow" me (go to to turn this on), feel free. I doubt I'll have much to add beyond what's being said here but as long as I'm marking these passages, I thought I'd offer to share.
George Brell
8. gbrell
Two quick things (probably more later):

Fela is Modegan, not Mondegan.

Also, it's possible Luten refers to the moon, the same as Moon-day (Monday), based on the name given for the moon in the Jax story, Ludis. This was brought up last thread, but makes for super-interesting theory as now:

Teh-lu = "lock-moon" or "moon-lock"

Which starts a whole landslide of fun. Was Tehlu Iax? The separation of Fae from "regular" persons certainly seems to align with the church's (and the prevaling popular) view of demons (or people with special abilities). It also places some of Bast's comments in a fun Gene Wolfe-esque light ("Stream and stone, it's frightening how primitive you people are."). Considering that, based on Felurian's comments, the current world is a pale reflection of what was once grand.

What's really fascinating is that, in human history, there really isn't a lot of evidence for massive technological decay. Even in the dark ages, small groups held on to advances or they were reintroduced by trade. The level of decay that's being attributed to this world, particularly the University (where naming has fallen almost completely from grace, which it appeared to have post-Creation war, unless Elodin's stories in WMF are recollections of super old myths), would require catastrophe on a massive scale (i.e. on the scale of the Creation war). Even so, why have the Fae not continued to develop since they seem immune to this purge?
Lurking Canadian
9. KatieG
Lurking Canadian; I'm not so sure about that one, given that Sleet was also chastising Kvothe for asking about it. He just might have let K think Ambrose had done it.
Lurking Canadian
10. Cralic
Love the re-read, thanks for doing it. Just read both of them a few months ago for the first time and haven't got to go back through them. There was a bunch that I seem to have missed, mostly the moon and some stuff with Auri.

Does anyone think that maybe Auri is scared of the moon in a way? That maybe her and D hate each other, know each other, or may be related or something? I don't recall them ever hearing about the other or meeting... speculation.
lake sidey
11. lakesidey
About D being 14 when Deoch was pursuing (?) her....maybe not. She doesn't seem to age - Deoch pretty much says as much. Would spending time in Fae do that to you? In K's case it seems to be unclear - he comes out of Fae with hardly any time passing in the outside world, not looking much older but with a full growth of beard. Does that mean time passes slower in Fae? Or just differently - sometimes slower, sometimes faster (Narnia, anyone?) If so, D could be going to Fae as the ultimate way of staying young.

(Of course, if she's literally the moon then all bets are off, the moon would hardly age so's you'd notice, not in two years at any rate)

Crazy tangent: At some point while I was reading the books I remember wondering whether Auri and D could be the same person. I have no idea what prompted the thought, but I have to point out, no-one's ever seen them two dames together, nein? And they are moon-connected and all that....ok, ok, so it's crazy. Forget it.

Steven Halter
12. stevenhalter

When he asks her if she saw the fire, her reply is “Holy God, yes,” which is an oath we have heard nobody else swear — they say by Tehlu’s
this and that, and they say other things, but not this. I think she may have been an angel.

In chapter 25 of WMF we have:

There was another flicker of lightning, and I saw her standing closer. She pointed at me, grinning delightedly. “You look like an Amyr,” she said. “Kvothe is one of the Ciridae.”
I looked down at myself and with the next lightning flicker I saw what she meant. I had dried blood running down the back of my hands from when I’d been trying to stanch my wounds. It looked like the old tattoos the Amyr had used to mark their highest ranking members.
I was so surprised by her reference that I forgot the first thing I’d learned about Auri. I forgot to be careful and asked her a question, “Auri, how do you know about the Ciridae?”
???Auri?” I asked gently.
“I don’t like telling,” she said softly, her voice thick with tears.

So, Auri knows about the Amyr & Ciridae and it does not seem to be a terribly pleasant memory for her. There does seem to be something ethereal and angelic about her various descriptions, so I lean in the direction of her being an angel also. This is disturbing as K says he kills an angel.
Just a bit later (same exchange, next chapter) we get Auri saying as Kvothe trys to apologize:

“No.” She gave her head a tiny, firm shake. “You are my Ciridae, and thus above reproach.” She reached out to touch the center of my bloody chest with a finger. “Ivare enim euge.”

In chapter 41 (WMF) we learn that Ivare enim euge means For Greater Good. Kvothe notices that from an original manuscript written by Gibea. Gibea was probably a member of the Amyr.
Her claiming Kvothe as "her" Ciridae, then using the Amyr motto and her mode of swearing (Holy God) and her pain at the memory all suggest she is tied up in the Amyr/Angel story in some deep fashion.
Lurking Canadian
13. ArtfulMagpie
Yay! I'm an E'lir now! ;-)

One thing I've noticed, and this may be purely incidental, is that both the wind and the moon are frequently referred to with the same epithet, "ever-changing." And the fact that at least once or twice people (Kvothe included!) have sworn oathes "by the ever-changing moon" always reminds me of the line in Romeo and Juliet in which Juliet tells Romeo "...swear not by the moon, th' inconstant moon/ That monthly changes in her circle orb/ Lest that thy love prove likewise variable."
Steven Halter
14. stevenhalter
gbrell@8:Tehlu either being Iax or being locked away with him or locking him or the moon are all interesting possibilities from the name. I like Lu being moon (related) as I mentioned last thread, but I also like the lu=first, so that ludis is "first something" for the moon. Could go either way (or both at the same time.)
As you say, it is great fun to speculate on these paths.
Dave West
15. Jhirrad
In re linguistics - I think we're going too far afield from a proper linguistic model by constantly trying to piece together things into a compound word. See the entire discussion regarding the name of Tehlu. I think we are trying to overcomplicate the issue by doing this.

We seem to have enough textual evidence that the root 'teh' most likely is lock. However, I'm not sure that the portion of the word 'lu' is anything more than a possible declension, indicating what part of speech 'teh' is referring to. Because we don't decline nouns in English, we often forget that many, many languages do so, and that it's easier to construct a new language with declensions than without. It provides a baseline structure. It seems to me that Tehlu could be something like "The Locker", or perhaps even "The Un-locker". The fact that it became a name and ultimately therefore a proper noun makes me think that the 'lu' on the end is describing something to do with the lock, rather than adding another noun to the mix. It also leads me to speculate that it was a title originally, rather than the name of the individual. So you have a reverse-Caeser here. The title eventually became the name of what was probably the most powerful and famous person to hold the position, or possibly the last.

A quick look at the Old Tongue in the Wheel of Time shows a similar occurence when you have a major catastrophe that sets civilization back technologically - it used to be that the leader of the Aes Sedai wore the ring of T'amyrlin in the Age of Legends, and the current leader of the Aes Sedai is now called the Amyrlin.
Steven Halter
16. stevenhalter
Jhirrad@15:Yes, that is all quite possible and is a worthy path to explore. However, we also don't know the linguistic rules of these languages Rothfuss has constructed, so we can't rule out either path of exploration.
In support of the lu part of Tehlu being a declension is that the followers of Tehlu are called Tehlin. If lu were integral to Tehlu, it wouldn't seem like you would modify it in that way.
Dave West
17. Jhirrad
shalter@16 - That's correct. All that said, the fact that we seem to be coming up with multiple options for what the 'lu' could translate as makes me more inclined to believe that it in fact is less likely to be a separate noun. Occams Razor and all.

An interesting piece of study might be trying to figure out how many words we find that 1) Are only 2 characters (in most languages which use complex alphabets 2 character nouns are extremely rare) and; 2) End in a vowels (many languages use this as a method to help create parts of speech). It could help us to set up a structural frame. Maybe I'll work on something like that this weekend.
Steven Halter
18. stevenhalter
Jhirrad@16:That's an interesting thought. Sumerian springs to mind as an example with lots of one or two syllable roots. The language don't really look Sumerian at all, but Rothfuss does seem to be playing with some proto-language notions.
A framework like you mention would be great!
George Brell
19. gbrell
@15: Re: no proper linguistic model

But that's why this is fun (unlike declensions, which are confusing). I like the idea that Tehlu could be "the Locker," which definitely fits well with the parable told by Trapis.


"In support of the lu part of Tehlu being a declension is that the followers of Tehlu are called Tehlin. If lu were integral to Tehlu, it wouldn't seem like you would modify it in that way."

Pythagoras = Pythagoreans. Even if that weren't the case, the linguistic decay argument works both ways here.
Steven Halter
20. stevenhalter
gbrell@19:Yep. The language(s) could be decaying into the arrived at words from several directions. It could also be that both meanings are correct and Rothfuss is having fun with multiple shades of meaning.
Lurking Canadian
21. suzannef
In this section we have not only Fela, as Jo says, but a few other real women-- Mola, Auri--to dispell the idea that Denna is poorly written, as opposed to poorly understood by K. Mola does seem a little vague, though, until she becomes a main player in the plot against Ambrose in WMF.
Ashley Fox
22. A Fox
On angels. Please, please, stop putting a christian light on the names 'angels' and 'demons'. Christianity does not exist in K's world.

Yes parallels can be drawn between the Christian Church and the Tehlin Church. However the comparison is one of a critical nature (Yes, yes, if you are Christian you probably will not like reading this part). As in the C' Church took on many different pagan aspects, sanctifing some and demonising others. Old gods/beings in new roles which suited the desires of that old court in Rome who laid the acceptable foundations of christianity. The T' Church is comparable in that it has taken stories (such as Skarpi's) and taken the parts that glorified Tehlu etc and sanctified them- 'Angels', whilst dubbing beings who didnt fit into their precepts 'Demons'.

However in the text alternative, older and seemingly truer versions are told. Of the Creation war etc. It quite clearly states that the 'angel' like beings are the Singers, and their description is far from the floaty-white-gowned-cherubic images we may associate with that word. The singers/angels are a bit more raw.

'Demons' seem to apply to the Chandrian, the Faen, and any who disagree with the T' Church.

Also Skarpi's treatment at the hands of the Church show that they clearly try to surpress any ideas that differ from the accepted gospel-ring any bells? imo the T'Church grew up partially naturally (or perhaps even out of fear of the judgements of the singers, who are there to act on wrongs they see. Setting up quide lines/commandemnts to avoid getting got by them) with Tehlu's legend but was also encouraged by the Amyr (until the split, by which point the Church was convinced of its sanctity, becoming a purer religion, if you will)

Its shown that those who follow the Church are actually quite ignorant of what is really happening in the world/of old truths, all the things K discovers, this ignorance would make it less likely for someone to, discover the truth of the creation war, free the moon, bring down the barriers between Faen and the world.

One of the things I really admire about Rothfuss was the parallels/critique he was drawing of the C' Church.
Dave West
23. Jhirrad
@gbrell 19 - I disagree that declensions are confusing. I actually think they are MUCH easier. Once you've learned them. It imposes a more rigorous structure on the vocabulary of a language, and more freedom on sentence structure. I think that the old poetic Latin is so cool and beautiful because the verbs are always the last thing in a sentence. It adds to the suspense and drama of the language if you will.

The structure of declensions is also why I feel like an author as rigorous and detail oriented as PR would go with them. His books are tight. Perhaps moreso than any other books of similar length I've ever read. Creating a tightly structured and controlled language would fit with his overall story-telling model.
Steven Halter
24. stevenhalter
A Fox@22: Yes, certainly angels and demons are unique referents to beings (or historical amalgams) in Rothfuss' world.
Not sure where the christian connotations you mention are occurring. ??
C Smith
25. C12VT
Re: Tehlu. Another argument for the "lu" part not being meaningful is that we also see "Tehus" (as in "Tehus Antausa Eha" - the phrase used to banish demons) instead of Tehlu.

@22: If the Amyr (or another in-the-know group) did influence the church's teachings, that would explain why those teachings apparently include effective ways of dealing with "demons", as we see when K takes the body of the scraeling to the local priest, who does "all the right things for all the wrong reasons" (p. 13). It seems somewhat implausible that very specific pieces of information, like what type of wood to burn, would survive when the larger picture information has been lost or garbled - unless the information the church had was garbled from the beginning. Very manipulative of the Amyr (or whoever) to use the church that way while withholding so much crucial information.

Re: Auri. I noticed that although the female students of the university usually know each other (Devi says they're all assigned the same living quarters), Mola and Auri don't appear to have met before. Hard to say for sure, but I think Mola would have said something if she had known Auri previously.

@23: I totally agree with you about Latin. Latin poetry can just do things English can't (though English is better for rhyming).
Hello There
26. praxisproces
@22&@24; yes, not quite sure what is Christian about Jo's discussion so far. Regardless, though, I will admit to gasping out loud when shalter @12 recalls that, according to Devan at least, Kvothe killed an angel. If Jo's guess about Auri is on target here (and lord knows it feels right; she's too mysterious and knows too much and is too obviously very old) then we might be set up for a really awful event in Doors of Stone. I'd hate to see that.

The coin is obviously Taborlin's coin, which as Jo says is obviously also an Amyr coin, which conclusively demonstrates Auri's extranormal place in the cosmology, and also establishes that Taborlin himself must have been an Amyr (and thus also an angel?) himself.

And I agree, I think we suffered from severe misdirection in the Sleet sequence. The Anilin line, which I had completely forgotten, just doesn't admit of another explanation. We know that Pat doesn't waste words, it's become effectively the first principle of the whole re-read. Why would that line be in there if it isn't significant? Background characters just don't get that kind of color here because it's not needed, it's a waste of space and so he doesn't do it. We don't learn the names of innkeepers, we don't hear about the patterns of the porcelain or the designs of the dresses. Kvothe is a storyteller and he is telling us the things that he remembers, and he only remembers the things that end up being relevant. The footpads have been hunting him for months, and so can't work for Ambrose.

I'm not on the faculty in the imaginary linguistics department, though I admire all of you who are, you're adding a lot of richness to the re-read that might be absent otherwise. I will say it seems terribly likely, based on these discussions, that Tehlu has something to do with the locked box and the moon, regardless of how the name parses; it does seem, however, unlikely that he is Iax/Haliax.

This does raise - and this is something we'll have to address long from now - questions about Hespe's story about Jax and the moon, especially regarding the old man in that story, the oft-mentioned Teccam, Tehlu, and Puppet. I think it's quite possible they're all the same person, but that will have to wait a few months.
Ashley Fox
27. A Fox
"@22&@24; yes, not quite sure what is Christian about Jo's discussion so far."-I never stated that Jo's discussion was christian. I said that there are clear parallels between the Church in K's world and the Church in ours.

They were both founded with political agendas, based upon the self sacrifice of a man/holy being. They both took old faiths/truths/gods and fit them into the context of their own beliefs. They both have a history of surpressing alternate belief systems. Burning witches/arcanists. Demons and Angels. They both have fractures within the church itself and a bloody history. These are just the ones that i can think of, off the top of my head. Thats without even touching on the christianisation of Ireland and its myths (thats where most fairy stories come from).

"The coin is obviously Taborlin's coin, which as Jo says is obviously also an Amyr coin,"-the connection to Tarbolin is definately there, but i do not understand how it is obviously an Amry coin. Or how there is any link to a con and the Amyr. What evidence supports this?

"also establishes that Taborlin himself must have been an Amyr (and thus also an angel?) himself."- In skarpi's story it clearly states that the singers/angels were on group who would bring justice to wrongs whitnessed. Selitos was another group who founded the Amyr, seeking revenge. A third group was afraid to become involved in the event of the great. Amyr and Angels are NOT the same. (I have theories on the Ruarch and subsequent splitting here, but its not relevent at mo, and I've posted it before.)

Saying that, regardless of supposed angelic qualities, I also have a feeling its Auri who will die.
Lurking Canadian
28. mochabean
@13 ArtfulMaggie: I was thinking the same thing yesterday and it happens so often that I don' t think it is accidental.
Lurking Canadian
29. ArtfulMagpie
Something that would be useful to the discussion would be to know in what language are the runes used in sygaldry? To me, the word "rune" connotes Old English/Anglo Saxon. That also means the short length of the words makes sense...a lot of the words still in English today that came directly from Old English (or Old Norse, in some cases) tend to be the short, simple ones. Pig. Cow. Man. War. Egg. Sky. Hell. Like that. We have further proof that Rothfuss is drawing on those real-world cultures in the Eld Vintic poetry Sim recites. Eld Vintic poetry, like Old English and Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon poetry, uses caesurae and kennings.

So if the actual word "Tehlu" is in Eld Vintic or a closely related language, many of the other versions we see (Tehlins, Tehus, etc) could basically be language-related all the various ways "Jesus" is spelled and pronounced in other languages...Jesu, Yeshua, Isa, etc...and we should keep in mind, too, that "Tehlu" might not be the original word, but a variant itself....
Dylan Thurston
30. dthurston
@2, 4, 6: I was struck by how little evidence there is that the footpads were actually after Kvothe. They were clearly uncertain about his identity. The only thing that had was the hair-compass, so they might have known his hair was red, but there are other redheads in the story. He was ambushed after the meeting with Deoch; could they actually have been after Deoch? Later on (after returning from the trip) Kvothe makes some comment about Ambrose looking smug, but that didn't seem definitive to me. Contrast this with how well it's established that Ambrose was doing the sympathetic attacks in WMF.
Sim Tambem
31. Daedos
@22 - Although there has been no real mention of Christian parallels thus far, I think the use of the terms "angel" and "demon" automatically create one (whether we like to admit it or not). There are a lot of other terms PR could have used, but he chose ones that (in most of the world, at least) have very religious – specific religious – connotations. I don't know why he did it, but he did. I still side with the theory that the Chandrian are somehow the good guys (or Haliax / Lanre at least) and the Amyr are the bad guys. Why? Because it is interesting. I'll try not to be heart-broken when book three proves me wrong, though.

I know we really haven't gotten to Puppet yet, but we should talk about him anyway. He is interesting. Keeping candles in the heart of the stacks, looking at people as only Elodin and other Namers can, being randomly entertaining, carving things. He gets a prize.

@26 - When Kvothe gets back to the University after his foray into the East (and the Faen realm), Auri tells him he has to promise her he won't run off again. Kote is nowhere near the University. He has run off (again). Does this mean something happened to Auri or between Kvothe and Auri? Yes it does. Fact.
Lurking Canadian
32. Kvon
Sorry if I missed this in previous linguistic discussions, but if Chan=seven, then do we know what Chandrian means?

When I read the section with D leaving, I thought she was having a series of short-term patronages, do we know this is the same man as in WMF?
Lurking Canadian
33. ArtfulMagpie
Sorry if I missed this in previous linguistic discussions, but if Chan=seven, then do we know what Chandrian means?

Ben tells Kvothe's father that it means "seven of them." :-D
Sim Tambem
34. Daedos
@29 - I was going to bring up that very point. The fact that the phrase
"Tehus Antausa Eha" shows that Tehlu isn't likely his actual name, but a variation of some sort. The common (Aturan?) language used throughout the story seems to be the "youngest" of the languages we've seen. I can not verify this specifically, but almost every other language we've seen appears to pre-date the Aturan empire / church / etc.
Lurking Canadian
35. SKM
Regarding D:

Someone in an earlier post commented that Denna's names all sound like Diana (the moon goddess). When I first read NW, I immediately noticed that all her names sounded like Dinah, the Biblical character famous for having been raped. I dismissed it as coincidental, but after the Bechdel scene in WMF -- maybe not?
36. herewiss13
In re: Christian parallels, I wonder if we can extract any further information/clues from the Amyr/Templar parallel. Two extremely powerful religious/militant organizations destroyed by the church/state (or _were_ they?!?). A Ciridae is obvious not a Knight Templar, but given some of the echoes between them, I just wonder if there are other echoes we could deduce.

...probably no brazen speaking head, though. :-P
Dave West
37. Jhirrad
Some formatting glitch messed up my post. I'm fixing it now.

@29 - The runes are a really, really interesting linguistic point here, especially considering that many of our linguistic assumptions are based on the given and known meaning of runes. The fundamental runic language we know of is Norse. Though really, any alphabet is a runic alphabet when you think about what a 'rune' is.

And the problem is not one of short words. Linguistically there is a huge difference between words of 1 or 2 characters and those of 3 or more. Especially nouns, which is what we are primarily discussing here. I'll admit that I'm not that well versed in Sumerian which was mentioned earlier, and so I can't comment on the frequency of these words in that language. However, in most modern (and when I use the word modern to define a language, I'm applying to that to anything that is less than 2500 years old) languages which use a complex alphabet (being defined as using a phoentic alpahbet rather to represent sounds rather than characters to represent entire words, ideas or concepts) you find that the use of 1 or 2 character NOUNS is extremely rare. Plenty of pronouns, some verbs, adverbs, and even an ocassional adjective. But NOUNS like that are hard to find. Why? That's a fantastic question, and if you can figure that out, why, I bet there's a Ph.D. waiting for you at the end of that scholarly rainbow. However, the linguistic evidence shows it's rare, which is what makes me think it is much less likely to be the case here.

This weekend when I have a little free-time I'm going to try and go through the words that aren't in the 'common' language as represented by English. I searched online and couldn't find that anyone has done that yet for this series. I helped a little on the one for WoT way back in the old days. It's something which I'll need help from people to fill in translations that we are reasonably certain about, but I think should be a valuable resource to understanding these books.
Ashley Fox
38. A Fox
The convo with sleat is amiguous at best. K detects truth in the fact that Sleat put Ambrose in contact with asassins, but he frowns, unsure, when Sleat refuses to directly answer whether he/Ambrose is responsible for the atack on K, as a matter of confidentiality. It seems that Ambrose has dealings with Sleat and asassins, but not if those were the ones to attak K.

Also there is the matter of K's hair in the finder (as other have noted). As far as I can tell K and Ambrose have had no physical contact. However, Denna shortly after meeting K on the caravan,

"Penny for your thoughts?" She asked, brushing an errant strand of my hair"

This with her trouble in Anilin and history as a con woman..well.
Katy Maziarz
39. ArtfulMagpie
"Though really, any alphabet is a runic alphabet when you think about what a 'rune' is."

My understanding, which may admittedly be limited, is that each rune stands for a sound, yes, but also has a name apart from that sound...a name that is a full word with a meaning of its own, not just a simplified representation of the sound. (Like pronouncing the letter "S" as "ess.") So runes really are quite different than our letters in at least one way...though, of course, they are related, as both can be called alphabets.
Dave West
40. Jhirrad
When speaking of runic alphabets vs. others, it really is semantics. Some scholars even think that some Norse runes developed from the Latin alphabet. It's really a small point.
41. herewiss13
@39: while our alphabet is a little more phoenetic than some, it's still not a one-to-one correspondence. "Aitch" comes to mind and "Double-U". Less clunky is the greek alphabet, which definitely has names for each letter that are more than the sounds they represent (i.e. alpha, sigma, phi, omega, etc.)
Ashley Fox
42. A Fox
My understanding of runes is that they are germanic in origin, and are more a set of symbols representing ideas that developed into idividual letters that compose words.

These were replaced with the latin aplhabet during eurpoes christianization. (Which in turn came from the greek alphabet)
Sim Tambem
43. Daedos
Japanese is another good example of a phonetic / meaning based runic system (called moras). Each Japanese character means something and has a sound. Japanese is a little different in that it has characters that represent single, double, and even the occasional tripple moraic sounds. They also have different sets of characters depending on a words origin, but that is another story entirely.

It is hard to evaluate PRs runes given what we know. We know what a few of them are, but we have no idea what they look like (or do we - fill me in here if I am wrong).
Ashley Fox
44. A Fox
Curiously scraeling, or Skraeling comes from the same origins as Runes, being germanic, and was a word used to describe an unknown/foriegn people-rekoned innuits around canada.

Considering the paralles I have drawn above, it should be considered that around the times of the creation wars when runes where in existance there were forces fighting on the other side whoms nature we are not certain on. Perhaps in the frame story these people have returned, with skraelings..
Katy Maziarz
45. ArtfulMagpie
Okay, regardless of anything else, the fact remains that the runes used in sygaldry all have names that have meanings. Key. Lock. Clay. Etc. My questions would be... Do they also represent sounds? Were they part of a true written language at some point? Or do they ONLY have names/meanings that can be used in sygaldry? And if they were part of a written language, WHOSE written language? What culture? What spoken language? How old are they? When and why was the written language part lost, with only the sygaldry remaining?
Katy Maziarz
46. ArtfulMagpie
"Curiously scraeling, or Skraeling comes from the same origins as Runes,
being germanic...."

And "sceop" or "scop," which literally means "shaper," was an Old English world for "storyteller." Skarpi's name always reminds of me of this word, somehow. Could just be coincidence, though....
Ashley Fox
47. A Fox
Sceop...isnt that the old dude who joined the Ruh in one of K's stories?

Re. The whose runes are these then? Perhaps the same as those who have the skraelings...

The oldest distinction we have between people is Knowers and Shapers. IMO Naming is a gift they both share, the difference being how they use it.
Katy Maziarz
48. ArtfulMagpie
Sceop...isnt that the old dude who joined the Ruh in one of K's stories?

OMG it totally is. *headdesk* How did I miss that?!?
Sim Tambem
49. Daedos
@47 - He is, but it doesn't seem significant. His story didn't have the depth that some of the others have had. The story of boy with the golden screw in his belly-button, for instance. Now that one will prove to be significant.
Ashley Fox
50. A Fox
@48 LOL!

@49 of course it does! Vast personal significance to K. Also wouldnt be surprised if Skarpi/ Sceop were the same person. Or title given to someone who keeps the old stories alive in the face of the Church. Not to mention the ring of standing stones.

There is also similarities in the chara of Teccam/the guy in the cave who warns iax.
Katy Maziarz
51. ArtfulMagpie
Also wouldnt be surprised if Skarpi/ Sceop were the same person. Or title given to someone who keeps the old stories alive...

Exactly what I was thinking, after I recovered from banging my head on my desk, ha. And what is doubly interesting is that "sceop" means "shaper" and was used to mean "storyteller." Is Sceop/Skarpi a Shaper? If Skarpi is the same person as Sceop, then he's also Ruh, at least by adoption....
Sim Tambem
52. Daedos
@ 50 - Sorry to mislead - sarcasm is tricky without intonation.
@ 51 - I'd say the similarities in their names is not a coincidence (nor the meaning that you have so deftly unearthed). So, is Skarpi an Amyr, or something else entirely? I'd say he's definitely one of the "good" guys (if such things exist in this story). Without him Kvothe would still be begging and thieving on the streets, his mind safely stowed away behind the doors of forgetting.
Skarpi also send Devan. I am sure he'll play a significant role in the forthcoming book.
Does it seem odd to anyone else that Kvothe hasn't found any other Ruh? There must not be many of them at all.
And what happened to Lord Greyfallow (spelling?)? Is Kvothe still, technically, in his employ?
Lurking Canadian
53. Arra
I've been thinking about the origin of the Tehlu's and Encanis' story and I think that Encanis is really Iax and the story is about Encanis/Iax being locked/binded behind the four plate doors.
Lurking Canadian
54. Arra
I'm also waiting to find out that K isn't really a Ruh. He mentions way too many times that he's Ruh down to the marrow of his bones, and I think he's up for a rude awakening. His mother is the Lockless heir, but his father is actually a fae. Don't know if that means Bast is his father or if Bast is the demon he tricked to get his heart's desire?
Katy Maziarz
55. ArtfulMagpie
One more thing that just occured to me. Whatever writing system is commonly in use, I do not think it is alphabetic. When Chronicler is describing his so-called "cipher" to K back at the very beginning, before K even starts his story, he says this: "There are about fifty different sounds we use to speak. I've given each of them a symbol consisting of one or two pen strokes. It's all sound. I could conceivably transcribe a language I don't even understand." So Chronicler's "cipher" is actually an alphabet, with symbols representing sounds. And K is unfamiliar with the concept, but figures it out just as quickly as Kvothe has ever figured anything out.

Probably doesn't mean much. Just interesting, given our discussion of writing systems above...
Lurking Canadian
56. SusieBlu
This is something from last week post by chrispin

... K's mother had dark hair (like Denna)
and his mother said his father does not have red hair, although it’s
open to interpretation...

In WMF the Adema have a different view on procreation. Kvothe's explaination to man-mothers is the child looks like the parents well in his case he doesn't look like his parents. So this may be evidence supporting the Adem's theory.
Steven Halter
57. stevenhalter
ArtfulMagpie@55:Actually, Chronicler's system sounds more like a phonetic shorthand system like handywrite. I think there is a mention somewhere when they are in the Archives of various alphabets being used.
Katy Maziarz
58. ArtfulMagpie
Hrm. I'm not really familiar with shorthand. I'll have to go look into it.
Steven Halter
59. stevenhalter
There are various kinds of shorthand. Some do words and letter combinations. Others are more like what Chronicler describes--representing sounds rather than letter stand-ins.
George Brell
60. gbrell
Skarpi, Sceop is a beautiful catch.


I think that's certainly an interpretation that many of us might agree with. At the same time, there are a lot of numerological similarities between parts of that tale and the Chandrian (the seven that didn't cross), which, if Skarpi's tale is accurate, arose after the enemy "was locked behind the doors of stone." It is just as possible that Tehlu is an amalgam of legends or a modification of an older root story (an explanation that accounts for the majority of the New Testament, for example).


A part of me likes the non-Ruh theory, but I've got three pieces of evidence; two against, one for:
For the theory possibly is the little-discussed reference to Kvothe's father by Lorren of Arliden as "Arliden the Bard." Admittedly, he then asks "which troupe he performed in," but the title of Bard seems fairly high for the absolutely Blood-less Edema Ruh.
Against is the fact that 1) Arliden seems to hold Illien in especially high regard, a slight oddity for a non-Ruh (though Netalia does as well and it would be obvious for a musician to celebrate his hero regardless of race) and 2) that the story of Sceop (WMF Ch. 37) demonstrates that the Ruh are inclusive in adoption, so even if neither of his parents was Ruh by Blood, they were Ruh by adoption.

@56: Re: Dark-haired-ness

From NotW, Ch.8: "They were both beautiful, with dark hair and easy laughter." Putting that to rest.

With regards to the man-mothers, I really can't believe that PR would include parthenogenesis in the story. Not only would it be experimentally testable (not every culture is as sexually free as the Adem and the entire population of noble's daughters - who presumably should be maidens prior to marriage - would provide an obvious grounds for experimentation), but it means that bloodlines are purely matrilineal, which means that Kvothe wouldn't actually be a Lackless since Vintas has patrilineal descent of names (unless they pulled a Targaryen and had incestuous marriages for five thousand years). Since red hair is recessive, this doesn't need to be so complicated.

Oddly, why is it the King of Vint, but the country is Vintas?
61. amphibian
I don't have as much investment in this, but I really do think that "Teh" and "Lu" are significant. The "Moon-lock" theory seems to fundamentally fit together in my head.

Since the followers of Tehlu are the Tehlin, then Tehlin probably translates as Followers of the Lock or something like that. Words like Anilin or Taborlin could possibly fit into that idea.

So if that's right, then is it significant that K comes from the LockLESS family? The Church and the Amyr power was cut by the peerage/powerful people, of whom the Lockless family have been part of for a very long time. The family traditions, with the box, the Fae-related mythology, and so on makes me think that the Lockless family has ancestral ties to whoever opposes the followers of Tehlu - perhaps the Chandrian?
Jo Walton
62. bluejo
I was talking to my geneticist husband about parthenogenesis, and we came up with some ideas. Parthenogenesis as it exists is always a female producing another female. And there can be both -- plants that really do this -- that reproduce sexually sometimes and parthenogenetically other times. If women could conceive alone when the moon is in certain positions, and sexually when it is in other positions (half each), and if sexual births were 50/50 male/female and parthenogenetic births were all female, you'd end up with a population which was 65% female. And I think this is what we see with the Adem! Think how many of them were female, all the significant ones!

And then Kvothe, if he's not the son of a god, and if he's all miraculous Lackless parthenogenic male, destined to open the box and let out all that bad stuff?

Oh, another thought -- maybe it's Pandora's box, and maybe what's still locked in the triple locked box is hope, which will be the eucatostrophic ending of DT.

I'd love that.
Lurking Canadian
63. Halcyal
A small point, mostly speculative, possibly repetitive and unlikely to sway the argument much one way or the other, but the ‘lu’ in Tehlu and Luten might be a meta-descendant of 'lunar'. We certainly have evidence (the Sceop catch being the most recent arrival) that Rothfuss adapts real words from various languages and myths for use in this story.

A Fox @ 38: A penney for our thoughts, in turn. The temporal aligment of the footpads searching for 'months' really doesn't sit well with Ambrose being the purpetrator. Niether does the spacial alignment, particularly not with a human-compas charm included as necessary support. Kvothe goes to the University and works at the Eolian. He shouldn't be that dificult for an assasin to track and find, particularly not one hired by Ambrose, with access to the kind of information that Ambrose could provide. The hair in the hair-tuned compas, meanwhile, is easy to dismiss in a vague way as something that Ambrose could have obtained, but the reality is that trying to get one of Kvothe's specific hairs (which he keeps short) as he goes about his day-to-day activities would be an endeavour unlikely to see much success unless Ambrose was being exceedingly obvious about it, which we are given no indication of. That scene with Denna, however, is exactly the sort of thing where a bit of casual hair collection might have occured beneath Kvothe's notice, and where we as readers are given a bit of harmless interaction that is actually the situational foundation of something more significant. The various mentions of Anilin that come together to potentially associate with the attempted assasiantion (the footpad's reference, the caravan's destination after Kvothe left it and Denna's trouble there) only add colour to the idea that Ambrose was not the perpetrator of the event, and let us not forget the feeling Kvothe had that he was being watched during a portion of his exodous from Tarbean.

Having said all of that, I personally think that it's a bit premature to jump ship and declar Denna guilty of colusion; I still favour her, at worst, as being on the chaotic neutral band of the character spectrum, but I wouldn't really be terribly suprised, given both the book's subteler and more overt cues, if she turned out to harbour a few dark secrets pointed directly in Kvothe's direction.
Lurking Canadian
64. Halcyal
Uhg. In-browser spell-checker fail. I suppose that's what I get for counting on those red, squiggly lines for highlighting spelling mistakes, instead of combing through the words properly myself.
Steven Halter
65. stevenhalter
Amphibian@61:I like that Lockless tie-in as opposed to Tehlu--the Lock(er) of something. Nice thought. I am becoming more convinced that Tehlu is an amalgam and at least parts of the amalgam may not have been particularly "nice".
Steven Halter
66. stevenhalter
Jo@62:That does seem to lend more weight to the Adem
parthenogenesis. I am pretty much convinced it must be the case that the Adem know what they are talking about.

That's an interesting thought that Kvothe could be a "miraculous" Lackless parthenogenic male. I wonder of part of the cause of the family splitting into its different branches could be when a Lackless female heir produces a male heir sexually. Then, Kvothes mother being forced out (or running off) could be traditional in the family.
C Smith
67. C12VT
Jhirrad@67: I've also been thinking of compiling a list of non-Aturan words and hopefully their meanings. Maybe we could split up the books between anyone who's interested and all put our data in the same place (Name of the Wind wiki? What do you think the best location for this would be?).

@63: I think it would be fairly simple for Ambrose to get one of Kvothe's hairs - he probably wouldn't do it himself (not his style), but he could easily pay someone else. Say while Kvothe is drunk at the Eolian.
Dave West
68. Jhirrad
@61 and 65 - Interesting thoughts. It still fits fairly well with the structure that we're finding.

I'm not sold that Tehlu would necessarily translate as "Locker" (though I don't think it's necessarily a bad option - still one to keep on the table), but from an academic linguistics standpoint (and yes, I chortle a little when I think to myself that I'm applying academic linguistics to an imaginary language which we have been given no concrete structure on from the creator of the same), it appears to be something other than a word compilation.

I don't dislike at all the possibility that Tehlu could actually translate as Lockless, or possibly something Unlocked or Without a Lock, Lost Lock, where the 'lu' is describing the lock. I just have a really hard time seeing is as a separate noun.
Katy Maziarz
69. ArtfulMagpie
"I don't dislike at all the possibility that Tehlu could actually
translate as Lockless, or possibly something Unlocked or Without a Lock, Lost Lock, where the 'lu' is describing the lock. I just have a really hard time seeing is as a separate noun."

One small piece of evidence that "Lu" is actually a word in and of itself, in at least one language...When Kvothe is testing Chronicler's ability to keep up with his story using his "cipher" or shorthand, one of the random things he says to Chronicler is "Lhin ta Lu soren hea." So, of course, we have no idea what it means or what language it's in. But the word "Lu" does appear as a separate word....
Sim Tambem
70. Daedos
Thoughts on the Adem parthenogenesis theory...

1. Adem women are fighters (probably all of them are, at least when they are young).
2. Adem women seem to all be in excellent physical condition for fighting - let's say at 10% body-fat (or less).
3. Women need 17% body-fat to ovulate (which is somewhat necessary for having children).

This would explain why none of them have children while they are away (as is claimed), since they only leave as mercenaries (and while they are ripped like professional gymnasts). Adem women probably would not achieve the necessary body weight to have children until they settle down (or, as the women might believe, "decide to have a baby"). With their social practices, this would almost immediatly produce offspring.
Also, the fact that they believe mothers decide when to have children makes their views of social interaction make much more sense (from their perspective, at least).

That is my theory, at least.
Dave West
71. Jhirrad
One of our big problems with deciphering the language here is that I don't think it's one language we're being exposed to. We know that there are a lot of languages at play in this world, and we have to try and figure out which words we hear come from which languages. That makes this entire exercise even more challenging.
Steven Halter
72. stevenhalter
ArtfulMagpie@69:I think that Lu has a number of meanings in various languages. In one it realtes to the Moon (Ludis). In another it is normally a declension (Tehlu, Tehlin). In the day names it could denote First or Moon (inadequate context to clarify). In the "Lhin ta Lu soren hea." it is a seperate word, which could be Moon or something else.
I would then guess that the name Tehlu is a bit of wordplay for those in the know (Amyr). To the Tehlin it naturally denotes their diety in their language. To others, added meanings give it other (possibly negative) connotations.
Andrew Mason
73. AnotherAndrew
I really don't think Denna can have been involved in a plot to kill Kvothe in Anilin - even if others were expecting him there, she must have known that he had dropped out before getting there. So either:
a. Someone else planned to kill him in Anilin, or
b. The assassins are, as lambson suggests, referring to a previous job, possibly a hit on Denna.

Have we a list of languages, by the way? There's Aturan, Siaru (the Cealdish language), Yllish, Tema, Temic (what exactly is the relation between those two?) and Faen, which I don't think we're meant to know about yet. Any others?
Steven Halter
74. stevenhalter
jhirrad@71:Right, exactly. We have a bunch of languages. We only have concrete meanings for a few words. The language snippets aren't always labeled. Plus, they are made up languages without provided grammars.
Good times. :-)
75. herewiss13
@62: I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but we primarily see women Adem because most of the men are away as mercenaries (as are some women, but proportionately, more men are just away). IMO, Moon-phase parthogenesis would just be a little too skiffy, even for the sort of rational-fantasy Rothfuss is writing. I think it's more a matter of illustrating cultural blindness. The Adem are sooo cool and wise and rational and deadly and civilized, not like barbarians...but they don't do music and they aren't clued into human reproduction, so they aren't supermen.
Lurking Canadian
76. suzannef
@73 Tema is ancient Temic, I think.
Andrew Mason
77. AnotherAndrew
But isn't Temic itself ancient? Who speaks it now?
Sim Tambem
78. Daedos
Temic evolved from Tema, so Tema is older. Kvothe learns Temic (I believe) during his trial so that he can be tried as a priest in Imre (or something similar - that's the story we are given, at any rate), but I don't think anyone really uses it. It is probably used by the church the same way Latin was used by the Catholic church a few hundred years ago.
Steven Halter
79. stevenhalter
Yes Temic predates Tema (NotW ch 12):

“You’ve got a good ear,” Ben said to her. “It’s Temic, actually. Predates Tema by about a thousand years.”

Elsewhere it seems to be mentioned that Tema itself isn't used much outside of church litergy and courts.
So no one really speaks Temic and few speak Tema.
Sim Tambem
80. Daedos
@79 Thanks for the correction; I accidentally switched the two around on my last post. And I agree.
Katy Maziarz
81. ArtfulMagpie
So, yeah. Tema and Temic are basically related the way Church Latin and Classical Latin are, I'd guess. Similar, but not identical, with one version being a dead language and the other one only living on in Church-related contexts.

Add the Adem tongue to our list of languages, btw. Though really, they kind of have two languages, one spoken and one signed. Sort of. :-)
C Smith
82. C12VT
I think "Lhin ta Lu soren hea" is probably Siaru, since we see "lhin" used somewhat frequently by Cealds. It seems to mean something like "yes" or "right" - e.g. on p. 392, Wilem says, "I will buy the first drinks, lhin?" It's probably related to the also commonly used lhinsatva.
Sim Tambem
83. Daedos
@82 Nice catch - I hadn't even noticed the lhin and lhinsatva connection, but I remember they seemed to give t he same overall impression. I think you're right on the money there.

*Also, if any one is intersted, all Cealds have Russian / Ukranian accents in the audio version. I wonder if Patrick Rothfuss had a say in how that project came together...because there are some very familiar accents for each of the different geographical demographics.
Ian B
84. Greyfalconway

Yeah, I was surprised by some of the accents, like Adem being sort of swedish or something, "yu lika da chokkit, ya? Von glurgen burgen" whatever accent that is. I kind of had them with an oriental accent for some reason when I initially read it.
Lurking Canadian
85. Niki S.
I love all the accents in the audio books-- though it's pretty amusing to hear a French accent suddenly pop up. Or, no. I love all the accents except for one: the tinker Kvothe meets in the upcoming chapters. He sounds like a stoned Beatle and it ruins the scene for me.

I don't know if I would have liked the Adem quite as much had I just read the book. I thought the audio book made Tempi absolutely adorable.
Jo Walton
86. bluejo
Jhirrad, shalter: If you do a language wiki I'd be happy to link to it in the links section of these posts. And I think it's a terrific idea.
Lurking Canadian
87. LAJG
@46, 47 etc re Skarpi and Sceop: When Kvothe and Tempi are on their way to Ademre, Kvothe says "I'm not speaking..." assuming he is speaking Aturan but then realizes he actually said it in Ademic: "sceopa teyas..."

Sceopa = speaking in Ademic?
Lurking Canadian
88. LAJG
@ 49 re the stories of Sceop and the boy with a screw in his belly button: the endings of both of these stories disappointed their listeners. I wonder if we're being told (warned?) not to expect an entirely satisfactory ending to this story?
Lurking Canadian
89. Sojka
Throwing out some theories:
1. If Denna is the Moon, Kvothe is the sun.
He's a musician, which could be a nod to Apollo/Lugh. His hair. His eyes - a reference to chlorophyl?
He's always had a temper, and the first time we see him really, intentionally hurt somebody out of anger he uses fire twice - once to burn Pike's belongings and once to burn Pike (the fish or a piece of wood?) himself.
He keeps refering to the slow circles he and Denna move in - like orbits. In one of the upcoming chapters, when he begins meeting her suitors, he thinks about how they react to her reaction to him and says something like She shines with my light. And although the Moon may be in the sky at the same time as the Sun, the Sun may never know the night as there will always be a part of Denna Kvothe will never understand - despite the fact that he takes the page with that admission from Chronicler and destroys it.
2. As far as looking for the ancient cities - I wouldn't be surprised if the mountains of Myr Tariniel were destroyed in the Creation War. If you look at the map, the southwest Commonwealth and Yll are mountainous, and one body of water between them is called the Reft. Drowned mountain ranges are a real geological feature (the San Francisco Bay is one, the Chesapeake is a drowned canyon) and destroyed landscapes pop up in epic fantasy. This would mean the first Creation War was so long ago (+2000 years) the changes to the landscape have become normalized to the people who live there.
3. The black wood chest at the end of Kvothe's bed in his inn has a who in it - maybe Denna, maybe Auri, maybe a part of one of them or him.
4. Has anybody else noticed names starting with "Deo-"? I think it's related to the Indo-Euro root for year. There's one in the alibi Kvothe tells Bast to spread around after he's recognized by the drunk in his inn, and then of course Deoch at the Eolian (aeolian?)
5. Reshi - res is the rune for seek, what does shi/hi mean?
thistle pong
90. thistlepong
For the folks concerned about the meaning of "lu," I think ArtfulMagpie's first instinct was correct; lu=first if it equals anything. Tehlu would be some form of "lock first." Luten would be "first day." And Ludis would be "fisrt moon," which, in fact, what Ludis is in Hespe's "The Boy Who Loved the Moon."
Lurking Canadian
91. LAJG
@ 89: His eyes - a reference to chlorophyl?

Have you noticed how much Kvothe is associated with leaves? He seems to be surrounded by them almost everywhere he goes.
Ashley Fox
92. A Fox
A point against Denna being the moon; Watching an interview with Rothfuss, about WMF he states that they (K&D) are both teenagers( with emphasis). Talking of how their relationship is developing, how although K was on the streets etc this just made him durable whereas D has been out in the world and is much more experianced.

Of course whilst she may not literally be the moon, does not mean that she isnt comparable to the moon, or the story of Iax and the moon etc. Them orbiting one another etc is poetic prose relating to their relationship, drawing paralells with other aspects of the story.

Oh and with Auri; I found the clip peeps keep refering to which states that originally she wasnt part of the story. Pat says that she became such an important part he had to do much of his rewriting to put her in (and that her scenes are some of his fav's, with which I concur). And whilst she is not important to the boiled down plot, plot. She is very important to K. IMO This unfortuneatly doesnt rule out her death driving K to some king killing descisions. :(
Lurking Canadian
93. DEL
The most interesting aspect of the books is the changable nature of stories and myths. The framing story itself is an attempt by a famed debunker to get to the heart of the myth of Kvothe. All stories are presented not as truth, but as lies that speak to the truth. All stories except those of the Chandrian, however.

Skarpi is keeping the tales alive in the minds of children with his tales, tales that some group/individual want changed. The tale of Lanre in particular.

How can one person who is centuries away from the tale know the truth? Should the door of stone remain closed? Is part of the name of the Moon trapped within them... or is it the remnants of the Shapers/Demons/Evil Fae?

Some day another super talented person who grew up with tales of the hero Lanre trapped beneath the door of stone could free him.... or a super-talented person who grew up with tales of the moon trapped behind them. If one got the story WRONG then what horrors might be unleased.

Do the thrice locked boxes hold names? What is their relationship with the doors of stone. I think Kvothe put part of his name in the box along with whomever is in there.

Trying to understand the purpose and history of the formative events of this world is hard enough without storytellers with agendas changing fundemental aspects of the story.
Lurking Canadian
94. DEL
I come down on the First Lock side of the Tehlu debate for one reason: Tehlu's story. He locks away all the lesser and greater demons except for the Chandrian and Encanis. No mention is made of the Moon. I have a deep suspicion that all the Doors of Stone and the Lockless Boxes date from the genesis event of the Tehlu tale.

@53 Arra Encanis has the same shadow shrouded face as Lanre/Haliax. Iax seems to be the person who betrayed Lanre, hence his adoption of the name Haliax(One who is opposed to Iax(*needs support)).

This interpretation brings about some intersting theories.
1. Trapping the moon ends the war. The ill-made house is no longer open to the world...though some Fae came come and go with much effort, they have nothing like the power the do on their home turf.
2. Iax somehow uses Lyra/Moon to accomplish this.
3. Lanre being devastated looks for ways to free Lyra, finds the Cthaeh, and he is corrupted, leading to the sack of the remaining cities.
4. Lanre as Haliax spends the next couple millenia searching for ways to free his love. Big problem: freeing her will cause the re-ignition of the Creation War.
5. Tehlu wether he is Selitos or not, seeks to keep Fae(demons) away from the world. Leading him to lock up everyone with demon of naming powers, and seriously cramping Encanis's style. Keeping the Moon locked away is bad.. but you know its For the Greater Good.
6. In the framing story the Moon is either free or completely, as opposed to partially, trapped. We know this because Bast is free to exhibit all of his powers and strength.
Ashley Fox
95. A Fox
1. The frame story is represented as the closest thing to truth the reader gets, yes the great debunker...who is seeking the truth in all of the K stories, such as he admits to putting about himself. The chandrian stories are perhaps the stories of least truth as these are little more than fragments of bursery ryms. Lest you ment the adem/scarpi stories of the creation wars/aftermath. Even so the hinge upon the moral stance of the 'whitness' and perspective of thse telling the story.

2.Theres no story of the moon/Lanre trapped behind doors of stone. Just Lanre's unamed enemy in Skarpi's tale.

3. There is no evidence that there is a person in the box. Just suposition from a few people.

4. The doors of stone's first mention is at the end of the creation war. The lockless box only has guessed dates. But the 'tehlu genesis' of the church seems to be way after the creation war/Tehlu becoming a singer. He becomes mortal, seemingly, centuries later. No boxes in Trapis' story. There are no demons, that is church propaganda.

5. The ill made house is a metaphor. For faen being shaped. Everything in Iax' story is either a meaphor or heavy with the symbolism. (I dont the moon is even literal.)

6. Tehlu is not selitos. Tehlu became a singer, Selitos founded the amyr. As of yet we do not know how the singers administer their judgement. We do know they have no interst in namers. Otherwise the university simply would not be. The singers react to what they whitness. Perhaps Tehlu as singer whitnessed something that haliax did, and sought to punish him. From this event could grow Trapis' story. Of course Haliax cannot die.

Dont confuse the earlier myths with the church/amyr politiking.

7. Bast powers in the frame prove nothing. Felurian demonstarates how her power is very much in effect in both worlds, before The Event that leads to the situ' in the frame.

Speaking of perspectives: Who says Lanre was corrupted? What if he actually came to see the 'right' and was persecuted for going against the majority?
Lurking Canadian
96. DEL
@ A Fox- Well they are all theories
1. In the first chapters when Ardilen is speaking of the Chandrian, he notes all the tales agree... and these are the ONLY stories that don't change. Is this because of some fundamental truth.. or the actions of someone keeping the tales from changing?
2. We know Iax is behind door of stone through Felurian(though not when that happened), We know Iax trapped part of the name of the moon in a box. We have only partial evidence that Tehlu was the one who locked all the demons away.
3. The old man in Jax's tale tells him that the box is to hold a name, to hold a name is to hold a person. What other explaination do you have other than that someone's name is in that box?
4. We do have a date for the box, it is ~3000 years old. We have a date of the Creation War it was ~5000 years ago. Demons are just a shorthand for Faen/Shapers church propaganda for sure, but still useful if you know what is behind the label
5. The Ill-made house is a metaphor for the realm of Faen. The fact that despite doors and windows that are locked there are still gaps in the joining and ways to leave/enter. Just the way humans and fae can reach each others worlds depending on the phase of the moon. This is because the moon is literally torn between the two worlds.
6. Good points. I haven't caught the Tehlu as a singer part...I thought he was an angel.
7. Well... we will see about that point :)
Kerwin Miller
97. tamyrlink
i dont read all the comments so i dont know if this has been mentioned, but has anyone ever noticed that Kvothe says a lot of sentences to Denna that have 7 words in them?
thistle pong
98. thistlepong
The moon is fundamentally unchanged in the frame story. In NWc1 K looks upon a night with no moon. In WMFc151 Bast reaches for his axes on the mantle, gleaming in the dim moonlight.

The greatest shaper catalyzed the Creation War by pulling the moon into Faen. Only Bast names Iax in this role. Based on the Atas of Saicere the war probably started somewhere around 5500 years ago.

Lanre effectively ended the war; either at Drossen Tor or with the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. Skarpi says the enemy was "set beyond" the doors of stone after Drossen Tor. Felurian says the greatest shaper was "shut behind" them. Based on the Cthaeh's testimony, the betrayal was roughly 5000 years ago.

The supposed age of the Loeclos Box is 3000 years. So the piece of the name of the moon, if "The Boy Who Loved the Moon" us accurate, was trapped at least 2.5 millennia before it was made. The Loeclos Box is in Vistas. If the stolen piece if the name if the moon was in the Four Corners, the moon wouldn't be compelled to move between realms.

Trapis gives a date for "The Burning Wheel," roughly 1000 years ago; coincident with the foundation if the Tehlin Church and the Aturan Empire.

Bast's abilities in the frame are commensurate with Felurian's assertion that the Fae give up a portion of their power when they travel to the Four Corners: disguising his appearance and some minor grammarie. He exhibits nothing remotely comparable to Felurian in Faen.

Haliax isn't trapped in the narrative, so he's neither in the box nor behind the doors of stone.

Arliden agrees with Ben; he's never heard a humorous story about the Chandrian. But they exist. Kvothe finds them in the archives.
Lurking Canadian
99. storps
Isn't Haliax a pseudnym that K uses to avoid saying Alaxel's real name?

Also, I like the idea of trying to synthesize the information collected here into the NotW wiki since that seems like the best place.
Sim Tambem
100. Daedos
@98 - Well said. And thanks for the in-frame moon update (I was wondering about that).

I wanted to add that the Lockless box is only estimated at being 3,000 years old. If it does have Yllish knots on it (as we are led to believe), then it could be as old as recorded language. Any civilization like that mentioned in the tale of Lanre was bound to have recorded language (maybe it was even done in knots). I think the box is older than 3,000 years.

Weren't we told that Iax was the foremost Shaper? That would put him behind the doors of stone.

Trapis doesn't have a clue when his story took place. He could have been 10,000 years off for all we know.

Also, I didn't get the impression that Bast has all his powers at all. There is also no indication that Felurian had all of her powers in Kvothe's world. We are told that the Fae give up a portion of their powers when they cross over; I think that should be taken at face-value.

And, finally, PR's mention that Denna and Kvothe are both teenagers (brought to us by A Fox) - very nice. I am still all for Denna being symbolic, but I couldn't see her as actually being the moon in any way. It just didn't feel right.
Lurking Canadian
101. Matt P
This is off topic, but Devi apparently means Goddess in Sanskrit, mainly used for Hindu Mythology. One of the Devis, Durga Devi, apparently fights demons and was able to kill a very powerful one.

It would seem that Devi has that name because she's able to fight demons like the Chandrian.
Josh Miller
102. alphagold3
On the topic of angels:
People keep using the term 'angel' as though the angels mentioned throughout both books refer to actual angels. However to go back to A Fox's comparison to christianity, demons are just fallen angels in christianity. So since demons are just Fae as we are told at some point in one of the books (I believe it was Bast that said this), could not the angels just be Fae as well? That is the way I have read and interpreted the use of the term 'angel' in the books. I always took the line about him killing an angel to be the general public not knowing the details about angels much as nobody knows the details about the Chandrian or the fact that, as Felurian says, "there never were any human amyr". In fact somewhere in the books (I don't remember where and I'm not at home where I can look it up) someone tells a story in which Aleph (who seems to be the actual god of the universe in which the story takes place) turns Tehlu and several others into the 'angels' and sends them out to fight 'demons'.
However if my theory is true and the angels are another kind of Fae, then the only way for Auri to be the angel that K kills (as theorized by other posters) is for her to be Fae. Based on her knowledge of the Amyr and the Ciridae I could almost believe that but at the same time, K portrays her as being a crazy human and not a Fae so I don't know who/what she is. The problem with Auri being the angel K kills is that I can't see why he would have to kill her to keep Denna (or whatever her real name is).
Also, I like the idea of a wiki but shouldn't it be called the Kingkiller Chronicles wiki instead of the NotW wiki since that's the name of the series as a whole?
thistle pong
103. thistlepong
The presumed age of the Loeclos Box is only the lesser half of the argument; it's unlikely to hold a piece of the name if the moon because she wouldn't be compelled to travel between realms if it did. The LB might be older than 3000 years; Kvothe's poor estimation about Saicere certainly suggests that possibility.

Trapis not only has a clue, he has a relatively narrow range. That his statements coincide exactly with the history of the Tehlin Church at least implies good information.

Pat's mentioned this in interviews and readings. He chose the name Devi because it was like devil, and only later learned its Hindi meaning after meeting someone named Devi.
Steven Halter
104. stevenhalter
Jhirrad & C12VT: I'm willing to take part of a book for the language wikification. The "name of the wind wiki" (already existing) looks like a decent place to hang such a project.
Feel free to contact me.
Lurking Canadian
105. Matt P
@101 - That makes more sense. I was thinking that most of the parallels we've seen so far are European and not Asian. Thanks.
Lurking Canadian
106. Niki S
For the language wiki, it might be worth noting that the common tongue spoken is definitely letter-based and not syllable-based (like, say, Japanese). I know this was being discussed earlier (I think about the runes? Also about Chronicler's speed notation methods.)

Bees,” I said. “And brewers in Bredon.” Auri smiled. “That's three bees.”
Lurking Canadian
108. Herelle
@99 storps

Isn't Haliax a pseudnym that K uses to avoid saying Alaxel's real name?
Does Haliax / the Chandrian have real names? Felurian calls him/them (I forgot) the nameless one(s), when Kvothe tries to persuade her to tell their story and she refuses.
Gerd K
109. Kah-thurak
They do. The Adem tell them to Kvothe and he and Bast argue over the dangers of naming them while telling the story.
Ashley Fox
110. A Fox
They are refered to as nameless by F, so as toavoid calling them. this uncontrolable response to their true name is one of the reasons there are so many names for the same person. (Lanre)/Haliax, Encanis, Alaxel.

Interestingly Haliax is the closest to the true name (Bast's reaction). H' a'liax. A'lax'el. This lends a good amount to the veritability of scarpi's tales. They do seem to be the closest to the truth. Excepting Adem and those Fae who were actually there. Of course all three sources concur, if they give various perceptions of the events.
Lurking Canadian
111. cyan
Long time listener, first time caller....

I've been following this re-read from the very beginning and it's been really truly awesome! The depth and insight that you all bring is amazing and mind-boggling. I salute you all.

What brought me out of the woodwork to comment here is the continuting speculations on language/linguistics. Trying to make a connection between sygils/runes to a latin-based language may not be viable here. Someone up-thread brought up the Japanese language, but only part of that is applicable. About a third of the written language used by the Japanese are Chinese characters (kanji).

In Chinese, every character (rune) is pronounced with only one syllable, regardless of whether it is a noun, verb, adjective, etc. One character = one syllable. But here's the kicker: the structure of some (a lot) of written Chinese characters is a construct of a number of other characters, and the whole doesn't always have anything to do with its parts. But the one syllable rule always applies.

So don't be too limited in your thought process about the sygaldry to language connection, nor language to syllabic representation.
Ashley Fox
112. A Fox
@111 Nice hearing/reading from you!

I rather think the lang' guys, and thread a general view Tema as comparable to latin, not the runes/sgyldry. Those seem to be most comparable to, coupled with other mythology etc used, to tie into the germanic/norse runes of our world.

With the possible exception of the Adem these books have a very western/european (which is very common in fantasy) feel to them, so I rather doubt the comparability of the Japenese/Chinese characters.

I think its easiest if we draw direct comparisons to europe in our own history.

Tribes, pagans and the use of germanic tongues. Inc 'faerie' tales.=use of runes.
thr Roman Empire, spread of Latin; Tema
Christianization of Rome/Europe, church latin,; Temic (Tehlinization?)

Of course we are not quite sure where the 'Roman Empire' element came from. The enemy in the creation war? Unlikely that the 'losers' lang' would remain. Less the enemies where the older 'tribes' and the side whose perpective we have seen represtents 'the Empire'. Or perhaps this was a new E arose from the ashes of the creation war. I would argue that the E existed during the creation war as there is evidence of a Dark Age described following the war, which apparently ended when Tehlu and Encanis faught. Resulting in the A church, transition from Tema to Temic.
Ian B
113. Greyfalconway
Deleted my post, wrong thread lol, reposting on this week's
Lurking Canadian
114. Lottemotte22
I got a weird question...
Can't the King that is being killed by Kvothe be himself!?
Okay, this sounds really odd.
But K talks a lot about how rich the Maer is,
and there is also a lot of talking about how much influence Lackless and Ambrose and everyone has.
Isn't it possible then ( assumed Kvothe is really a Lackless) the he has somehow killed a part of himself.
And thus a King!?
I see that this theory has a lot of gaps and is somehow wrong,
but I thought about that, and want to know your opinion on that...

I also have to say that he has killed Ambrose is much more plausible.
Because in NoTW someone said that he saw the place where K has killed him...
So probably not himself.... but i dunno.
it just worked quite nice with the broken Alar and broken tree stuff...
After writing this though, my thesis sounds really wrong.
But whatever...;)
115. Psyzygy
"In support of the lu part of Tehlu being a declension is that the followers of Tehlu are called Tehlin. If lu were integral to Tehlu, it wouldn't seem like you would modify it in that way."

I don't have a position on the derivations or morphological compositions of any of the invented words, but I will point out that

teh + lu + in > tehlin

Would not be at all unusual. When two vowels come together, languages often provide a method for simplifying the sequence--delete one vowel (with the dropped vowel determined by position or quality), insert a glottal stop or glide between the vowels, fuse the two vowels into a new vowel, delete one vowel and lengthen the remaining vowel, etc.
Lurking Canadian
116. Thawra Desbarra
Guys, just a thought here. It is said that Kvothe's first lover called him "Dulator". Naturally, the first creature that comes to mind is Felurian. Now Felurian might have called Kvothe such since he something that is "due later", a clever word play in reference to Kvothe holding Felurian's unfinished song as hostage.

But on the other hand, this can also be construed with respect to Kvothe's transformation to a simple inn-keeper named Kote. It is interesting to note that, modulation is a process done in a similar fashion to a musician modulating a tone (a periodic waveform) from a musical instrument by varying its volume, timing and pitch. This makes sense since it has light reference to Kvothe being a musician while at the same time being an ingenious foreshadowing of a defining change in his personality.
Lurking Canadian
117. Pooja

I have been trying to answer this for some time.

Why can 'Kote' not mean 'Expectation'?

There are two words Kvothe does not know the meaning of ... and it seems from the dialogue that one translates to verb form 'expect' and the other to noun form 'disaster'.

Is the second word described somewhere else as meaning expect / expectation? If not, are we taking the meaning as disaster due to order of the words (which may not be entirely correct as many languages list the verb first and others list the subject first)?


--- Pooja.
George Brell
118. gbrell
The original phrase is: "Chan Vaen edan Kote."

Kvothe's response is: "Seven years ... I don't know Kote."

And Kilvin's translation is: "Expect disaster every seven years."

We assume that "Chan" likely shares a root with Chaen, which we know from Ben means "seven."

Assuming that Kvothe translates in procession, that makes "Chan Vaen" = "seven years." Other constructions become very strange because they would separate the number and years without any linguistic clue to connect them (e.g., "seven disaster years expect").

We have a slight problem in that Kilvin's translation gives us three words to pair with two: expect, disaster, every.

If we assume that verbs/nouns are more important than adjectives (which could be implied or incorporated into the noun - like "chiquita" in Spanish), you're correct that "edan" and "Kote" should pair with "expect" and "disaster."

My best arguments for "Kote" pairing with "disaster" are as follows:
-Since K(v)ot(h)e uses it as a name, we'd expect it to be a noun.
-It's capitalized (as are "Chan" and "Vaen"). Since this gives us an expression with 3 capitalized words vs. 1 uncapitalized, we guess that its underlying language is like German and has all-noun capitalization. This also works with "Chan Vaen" being "seven years."
-Your alternate suggestion is "expectation," which is a different form of the word. It's possible that the verb and noun are the same in the underlying language, but Occam's Razor suggests fewer assumptions as being more likely to be correct.
Lurking Canadian
119. Pooja
Thanks gbrell. Your second point about nouns probably being capitalised convinces me. It should mean disaster.

But let me play the devil's advocate. Two things:

Your third point: In Hindi, the verb form of the word 'expectation' (aashaa, ummeed, apekshaa etc) does not change the word itself ; the rest of the sentence structure, specially the subject's noun-form make the meaning clear. As I speak Hindi, it is easier for me to assume that the word may remain the same. Are there more languages who do this?

Edan means fire, or blaze and is apparently an Irish word. Doesn't that make it more likely that it may mean disaster?


--- Pooja.
Lurking Canadian
120. Pooja
One more nugget in favor of the theory that 'Kote' might mean "to expect"/"expectation" instead of 'disaster': His original name, Kvothe actually means "to know" - it is not a noun, it is a verb. So, there is no reason to assume he must have chosen his new name as a noun.

Just a theory. Don't kill me. I am just hedging my bets :)

--- Pooja.
Laura Taylor
121. Lauranimal
1) So I have a couple of thoughts (not sure all of them should go here). Since there is much talk of the interperetations of Tehlu in this thread, I would like to point out that Maedre has 3 meanings. I would think that Tehlu having several meanings... maybe even depending on how you say it... would be an acceptable proposition. (If Tehlu was a Title or position... then might his original name have been Menda?)

2) I couldn't help thinking that the coin Auri gave to Kvothe is a Gram. (and I'm also curious as to what has become of the Gram Kvothe started at the same time as the Maer... but didn't finish? Thats got his blood, hair, saliva etc! Where is it now? He made a whole new one when he got back to the University and heard Ambrose was returning)

3) Is it unreasonable for me to think there is a similarity in the names Elodin and Eolian ?

Talk about late to the party! Hope there are still some folks in on this conversation!
Lurking Canadian
122. jorgybear
“It’s interesting that this chapter title that says “ever changing” is the only one that is repeated and therefore stays the same.” Yes, but the wind cycles (sort of), so while it changes, it can come back to what it once was. This leads me to think of Kvothe becoming Kote in the Waystone Inn, and (I’m sure) becoming Kvothe once more, as he did in Tarbean.
Could Auri’s mysterious coin have been some sort of Gram? What ended up happening to it? (Apologies to Lauranimal, I write these theories as I read the main blog, then a couple of the comments. I'm not trying to steal other people's ideas.)
“Auri doesn’t want the moon to see her.” Wasn’t Auri said to mean “sunshine” or something? It would fit that sunlight and moonlight can’t be seen together. Having just typed that phrase, I am reminded of the old joke where two people are claimed to be the same person, “You never see them together”, so Auri may be part of the moon as well? The part that Iax/Jax stole, and locked behind the 4 plate door, but found her way out through the Underthing? A bit of a stretch of logic, perhaps.
“I suppose she was younger but I can’t say she seems any older now.” So she was probably still 16 then, if she is in fact the moon, and doesn’t age.
Kate Hunter
123. KateH
Auri is afraid of someone, maybe someone in particular, or maybe (a certain category of) people in general. When K brings Mola to look at her, he says only that he's brought a friend. Auri: "Is he nice?" K explains that Mola is female, and Auri relaxes considerably. If she's merely incredibly gunshy in general, why would Mola being female set her at ease? By Auri's standards, she takes to Mola very readily, though Mola got pointers from K on how to behave. I think Auri would have been much more freaked out by a male friend. She's none too fond of Elodin, even though she's seen him a lot and presumably he's never given her real cause to fear him. Yet she's clearly fond of K, a male. Why? PR has deliberately withheld K and Auri's meeting and early acquaintance. What is Auri afraid of?
Kate Hunter
124. KateH
@lauranimal re: Elodin/Eolian - I don't think there's a real connection. I always read/hear Aeolian when I see Eolian. Not that Eolian is insignificant. My association with that is the aeolian harp, which is played by the wind. Basically it's a sort of ancient Greek windchime, named for Aeolus, the god of winds. I'm sure someone else has pointed this out in one of these comment sections before now. Just bringing it up here since you raised it.
Drew McCaffrey
125. PallonianFire
I don't know if anyone is still paying attention to this thread, but I'm growing more and more certain that her patron is Cinder. (Now, whether Cinder is also Bredon is still up in the air).

I say this because there is one GIANT event in this chapter that screams "Chandrian", and that is the fire in the Fishery. Hear me out.

We have the quote, "Ferule chill and dark of eye." Cinder, yes? Now, the canister of bone-tar is TOO COLD. Could Cinder have been checking up on Kvothe, inadvertently causing the canister to break open? Afterward, knowing Kvothe was indisposed, Cinder could easily have headed over to the Eolian and been all "oh, you need a patron?" with Denna.
Lurking Canadian
126. afree
In the first paragraph under Chapter 70 you mispelled "barricaded" is not "barricated."
Mark Norton
127. Remillard
When he asks her if she saw the fire, her reply is “Holy God, yes,” which is an oath we have heard nobody else swear — they say by Tehlu’s this and that, and they say other things, but not this. I think she may have been an angel.
I read the books several years ago, but with the release of Auri's story, I decided to reread and stumbled upon this re-read and analysis.

Ms. Walton earlier said something in one of the earlier sections to the effect of wondering how the Adem birth stories were mixed with the idea of parthenogenesis. I think it may be worth thinking about the curses in the world. It's not "Tehlu's this and that", it's almost always specifically "Tehlu's tits and teeth". Alternatively Kvothe uses "God's burned body" which is also evocative of the Tehlu/Encadis struggle.

However religious, vulgar, or scatological oaths and curses might be, there's usually a real root to them and the alliterative pace to them comes along for the ride. So I started thinking about tits and teeth. First, for someone who seems portrayed primarily as masculine (though I would have to go back to Scarpi's story and see if he related Tehlu as being explicitly male, or if it was my own reading of it that imposed that image onto him) swearing by Tehlu's tits seems to be ... odd to say the least. Perhaps Tehlu is more androgynous? Or perhaps androgyny is the wrong assumption given Ms. Walton's curiosity. Rather than possessing no gender specific traits, perhaps Tehlu possesses both masculine and feminine specific traits? (not entirely sure if there's a diametric opposite to the word androgyny). In that sense, parthenogenesis seems quite likely in some fashion.

Teeth is a little harder to parse, however assuming it's not along for the alliteration ride, could there be a connection between that and the white teeth of a denner resin addict?

I don't know if anyone reads the comments as this article has been out for quite awhile, but these are the things I'm thinking about right now.
Kate Hunter
128. KateH
Hi Remillard. Just wanted to say, yes, someone's read your comment. It's a good one. Oaths of the 4C world would be an interesting area to explore in greater depth. You've made a nice start here.

In general, oaths that have any foothold in religion or that invert the sacred would probably vary a lot from place to place in 4C. At least that's my guess, because I get the sense that relgion varies quite a bit from place to place, though I can't cite specific passages to support that off the top of my head.

Auri is Cealdish, I'm pretty sure, and so far as I know, we have little to nothing to go on with Cealdish religion. Maybe it's just the alliteration, but where my mind goes with "Tehlu's tits and teeth" is teething and unpleasant breastfeeding situations. He did grow up rather fast, right? I realize this is weird and may not add up at all, just the first thing that comes to mind.
Lurking Canadian
129. highwaycrossingfrog
@125 PallonianFire I'm a year and a half late in catching your post but I just wanted to say YES! Exactly my thought when I read Jo's synopsis. It's not paranoid at all to think that an enemy of Kvothe/Denna's patron caused the fire in the Fishery. I too believe Denna's patron is Cinder (and also Bredon). It seems odd to have the combustion of what we are explicitly warned is a highly flammable substance unless properly chilled caused by frost, though it is later explained away quite nicely. But Cinder is definitely associated with cold. Beside the reference in the Adem story you found, we also have Kvothe's first meeting with him:

"His hair was shoulder length, framing his face in loose curls the color of frost. He was a creature of winter’s pale. Everything about him was cold and sharp and white."

His eyes don't reflect fire or sunlight. He sheathes his sword "...with the sound of a tree cracking under the weight of winter ice."

I'm almost convinced it's Cinder's handiwork, presumably to introduce himself to the stood-up Denna. The only points against are that it's a pretty extreme and inefficient way to accomplish anything - he can't control whether or not Kvothe is hurt and misses the date - and there is a danger of Kvothe being killed, and I am equally nearly convinced that The Chandrian want to keep him alive to open the Lackless box/door.
Joanna Andrews
130. highwaycrossingfrog
I think there is some confusion here over the Amyr and the singers. Some people are referring to the Amyr as a separate group from the singers or 'angels' described in Skarpi's second story, but I think the text is rather ambiguous. The issue as I see it derives from the narrative describing some of the Ruach standing with Selitos, who wishes to form the Amyr, and then:

"Most of the Ruach hung back from Selitos, too. They were afraid, and they did not wish to become involved in great matters. But Tehlu stood forward saying, “I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you.""

Others are then named. So one interpretation is that Selitos forms the Amyr, then Tehlu and a bunch of others form a third group, who people seem to have identified as the singers. But they are never called that in the story. I always read it that Tehlu and the others were volunteering to serve Selitos as Amyr, i.e. "Most...were afraid...[b]ut Tehlu stood forward." We actually have no information at all on the singers other than Haliax's "Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe?", and based on the lower case 's' I'm inclined to think that Haliax means singers in general, e.g. people like Arliden who keep The Chandrian's names alive in songs and stories, and by naming them cause them pain. Any other interpretations? That is, if there is anyone left reading this :)
Joanna Andrews
131. highwaycrossingfrog
Me again, third post in a row. Sorry. But my brain keeps popping things up, and as I am probably the only one at this party, forgive me if I talk to myself!

A little something that was prompted by A Fox's post @95. "Lanre's unamed enemy in Skarpi's tale", who are trapped behind the doors of stone at the end of the Creation War. I believe we do know who this enemy is. If we examine Skarpi's tale in conjunction with Felurian's (first-hand) account in WMF, the two sides in the war were the Namers and the Shapers.

First there were only Namers, who were also Knowers. These included Selitos, Lyra and, originally, Iax. They could look at a thing, know it's true nature and thus Name it, giving them the ability to control, but not change it. Then at some point Iax and a bunch of nameless guys become Shapers. They start creating stuff left, right and centre, and the Namers tell them to stop, because it's dangerous. But the Shapers go ahead and create the Fae realm, splitting it from the Ruach/pre-human realm by giving it stars. And the final straw is Iax acting like a colossal jerk and pulling the moon part-way into Fae and/or stealing a piece of her name. This sparks the Creation War. Cities are razed, countless thousands die, and finally the Shapers make a black monster which kills Lanre. Lyra brings him back. Years pass and because of Lanre and Lyra the Shapers are greatly reduced and everyone thinks the war will be over soon. But something happens to Lyra. And then something happens to Lanre, involving the Cthaeh. He becomes Haliax, crushes Myr Tariniel and is cursed by Selitos, who firms tree Amyr
Joanna Andrews
132. highwaycrossingfrog
Accidental premature post!

*forms the Amyr.

So if I'm right, the Shapers are behind the doors of stone. Best guess, Kvothe opens the doors of stone in The Doors of Stone (not a stretch!) and unleashes them, probably somewhere to the east, since the Skraeling are moving east to west. Hence why there are now Skraeling, and skin dancers, where we have earlier been told demons who could wear the skin of men had been eradicated.

I'll try to make that my last post, at least until the next section of the blog!
Anthony Pero
133. anthonypero
I think I agree with your last paragraph @130 RE: protection from "the singers". I think Arliden is exactly what Haliax was referring to. The danger of singers is the danger of songs... they can expose truth in a way mere text can't, because of how they can spread like wildfire.

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