Wed
Apr 20 2011 12:00pm
Malazan Re-read of the Fallen: Memories of Ice, Chapters 8 and 9

Memories of Ice by Steven EriksonWelcome to the Malazan Re-read of the Fallen! Every post will start off with a summary of events, followed by reaction and commentary by your hosts Bill and Amanda (with Amanda, new to the series, going first), and finally comments from Tor.com readers. In this article, we’ll cover Chapter 8 and Chapter 9 of Memories of Ice by Steven Erikson (MoI).

A fair warning before we get started: We’ll be discussing both novel and whole-series themes, narrative arcs that run across the entire series, and foreshadowing.

Note: The summary of events will be free of major spoilers and we’re going to try keeping the reader comments the same. A forum thread has been set up for outright Malazan spoiler discussion.

Another fair warning! Grab a cup of tea before you start reading—these posts are not the shortest!

Chapter Eight

SCENE 1

Gethol walks across a landscape of bones, complaining about the unpredictability and insolence of humans. He recognizes that now he is “broken” Hood has discarded him. He opens his Omtose Phellack warren as he tells Hood “I know you now . . . who—what—you are. Delicious irony, the mirror of your face.” Inside the warren, he senses its weakness due to the millennia of T’lan breaches and attacks, and knows Omtose, like the Jaghut, is dying. He comes across a fissure, “sweet with decay and disease”, an “invitation” from the Crippled God. He enters it.

SCENE 2

Gethol arrives at the tent of the Crippled God, but demands the God remove the tent as Gethol will not “crawl.” The CG tells Gethol it was Gethol’s desire for vengeance, his “personal desire” that disappointed Hood and in Hood’ s mind threatened Hood’s “meticulous plans.” Gethol recognizes immediately that the CG is poisoning Burn and the CG agrees, saying it will one day kill her and the world will die, telling Gethol “these chains must be broken.” Gethol scoffs at the idea he might help the CG, saying he was there at the Chaining and besides, all worlds die. The CG says Gethol is the weak link, however, having failed Hood now and also when “your brother Gothos called upon you.” The CG then reveals his cards, informing Gethol he plans to “join the game” and offers Gethol the position of Herald, and the possibility of higher, King even. When Gethol warns him the Deck will resist and his House will be “assailed,” the CG says the Deck’s maker “is dust” and thus no one can control it, offering up the resurrected House of Shadows as proof. Gethol agrees.

SCENE 3

Murillio, Coll, Kruppe, and Quick Ben are playing a game of bones and Kruppe has won every throw, to Quick’s amazement (not because Kruppe is winning but because he can’t figure out how Kruppe is cheating). Korlat arrives and tells Whiskeyjack Rake would like to see him. Rake tells WJ he is contemplating “the nature of happenstance” and of people who find themselves thrown together for a while and whose lives are therefore changed, no matter how brief the contact. Whiskeyjack tells Rake he doesn’t fear change. Rake continues by saying the tension, the rivalries, etc. among the alliance are clear, but despite that Rake feels a sense of hope. When asked why, Rake brings up Paran, whom he simply “likes.” After some silence, WJ suggests Rake is a bit curious about Quick Ben and goes on to tell the story of how he met him. Quick was a “middling wizard” working for a Seven Cities Protector, one of a 12-mage cadre. The city was taken, Dassem killed the Holy Protector, and the cadre fled into the desert, chased across the entire desert by Whiskeyjack’s thrown together squad of 70 leftovers (including Fiddler, Hedge, Picker—first time under WJ) guided by Kalam, recently recruited into the claw. They come across a corpse at a time as they continue, each one strangely shriveled:

Kebharla: “more a scholar than a mage”
Renisha: High Meanas
Keluger: Septime priest of D’riss, the Worm of Autumn
Narkal: warrior mage sworn to Fener
Ullan: Soletaken priestess of Soliel
Set’alahd Crool: Jhag half-blood whose sword was blessed by an unknown ascendant
Etra: mistress of Rashan
Birith’erah: mage of Serc warren of sky
Gellid: witch of Tennes

As they went on, the squad was tempered, changed by Raraku, “annealed” (a word used to also refer to Stormy et. al “annealed” in the warren of fire aboard Silanda). Finally they come across Quick Ben sitting alone awaiting them. He tells Whiskeyjack he and his men have been changed by the Holy Desert, that Raraku “has burned the bridges of their pasts . . . and they are yours, heart and soul.” Whiskeyjack reveals he’s known for some time that Kalam and Quick had been conspiring, but he was “curious” as to what had been happening with the mages. He asks if their souls “clamor” within Quick Ben and wonders what was the end planned for? Quick Ben says the clamor has “subsided” as being a ghost within is still better than dying. He tells Whiskeyjack the end was only for survival, that they hadn’t thought the squad would make it and now he and Kalam would follow Whiskeyjack if he’ll have them. Whiskeyjack will, but says Surly will take them and Quick says only if she knows. They join the squad and the first engagement was the retaking of G’danisban where the squad of 70 plus Quick and Kalam “crushed” 400 warriors in a night. Even Rake is somewhat stunned at the tale and appreciates that Whiskeyjack told it despite Rake specifically asking for it. Whiskeyjack refers to the same “instinct” Rake had mentioned earlier, implying he “likes” Rake and trusts him. Rake says he was impressed by how WJ defended Silverfox and WJ says he was equally so that Rake stood down. Rake says Kruppe still has him wondering and Whiskeyjack basically says yeah, good luck with that. Rake says he’ll keep his distance from Quick until he leaves so as not to make Quick nervous. He says he enjoyed the evening and maybe he can share some of his own stories sometimes (he has a “few” he says). Before Whiskeyjack leaves he also says Silverfox has nothing to fear from him and he’ll rein in Kallor. Whiskeyjack leaves realizing he’s made a friend this night.

SCENE 4

Crone asks Rake if it is wise to make a friend of a “short-lived mortal,” reminding him of his past “tragic” experience with such. Rake’s answer: “one can find precious value in brevity” is vaguely mysterious enough to frustrate Crone and she flies off in a huff once Rake tells her to bring Kallor to him. Rake tells Korlat he is leaving for a while to seek “Silannah’s comfort” and tells her to protect Silverfox and keep a watch on Kallor. He wants to be called if Kallor “errs” but tells Korlat not to hesitate in bringing the “full force” of the Tiste Andii on him if needed. Korlat wonders at that, saying such hasn’t been done for a long time, but Rake says why risk not using enough power. Korlat agrees, but is still troubled at the idea of 1100 Tiste Andii joining warrens when it took only 40 of them at the Chaining to “destroy the Crippled God’s entire realm—granted, a nascent realm . . . Eleven hundred . . . we risk devastating this continent.” Rake says use restraint if it turns out to be needed, but he doubts Kallor will risk anything.

SCENE 5

The Mhybe dreams herself young in the tundra world Silverfox had been born in (Telann), watching large beasts and coming across footprints, a dream she finds torture when she awakes in her broken, old self. She begs the Rhivi spirits to take her life. Kruppe arrives bearing a gift. He tells her that while extending the caverns/tunnels below Darujhistan, rough-hewn chambers were discovered with ancient artwork and rough altars on which were found copper ornaments (anklets, torcs, etc) to ease pain. The Mhybe is touched, but starts to explain while copper heals, it doesn’t work on age, but Kruppe interrupts. He tells her scholars examined the altars, paintings, etc. and says it has been confirmed that these belonged to the original Rhivi spirits—once mortal, perhaps the first band of Rhivi (the same ones the Mhybe just named as she asked them to take her life). The Mhybe wonders in her mind how Kruppe knew she needed such a gift this morning especially. Before leaving, Kruppe tells her not to discount dreams. The Mhybe wonders “whose path did I cross last night.”

SCENE 6

The scene shifts to Picker and Antsy’s squad getting dropped off by Twist’s Black Moranth at the foot of the Barghast Mountains. Antsy starts to blame Paran and Picker tells him to cool that kind of talk. Paran tells them Quick Ben has been delayed and that Antsy’s squad is to remain to escort him to catch up to the rest of them who are leaving with Trotts. Blend appears and tells them she overheard Paran and Trotts discussing how Trotts once held some kind of high Barghast rank and he’s going to try and get the White Face Barghast to ally with them against the Pannion, though it might involve Trotts having to do personal combat challenges.

SCENE 7

Paran, looking at his group, recalls Whiskeyjack saying the Bridgeburners would be retired after the war, how rituals are needed to help usher the soldier back to the “normal” world, and wonders what “does he or she become?” He worries about what will happen when they meet the Barghast and thinks perhaps a quick death would be a blessing.

SCENE 8

Quick Ben is moving through warrens, finding them “infected” and “corrupted.” He says it has the feel of the Crippled God but logic would argue it’s a defense by the Pannion, which leads him to think the two are connected. He shifts to Hood’s warren (or along the edge of it) and finds it is resisting the infection better. He comes across a bound sticksnare, the spirit (named Talamandas) of the White Face Barghast that Bauchelain and Korbal had loosed and then bound. Talamandas tells Quick Ben the necromancers would have dragged from him secrets of his people, such as that the Barghast came from the seas and were in fact once T’lan Imass that failed to arrive in time for the Ritual. Isolated, they changed. Quick asks what Talamandas would do if Quick Ben freed him and Talamandas says he would try to free the First Family spirits because the ancient bindings have kept them from ascending into true gods and thus the Barghast themselves are not changing/ascending, are stagnating since the ancestors cannot give them guidance; he wants to help the Barghast survive. Quick asks if survival is a right or a privilege and when Talamandas says the latter, Quick frees him.

 

Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Eight:

Hood is a harsh taskmaster! Gethol fails in his bid to entice Fener’s followers into the service of Hood, manages to get himself injured, and is thence discarded from Hood’s service. I’m distinctly glad that Hood is not my boss at work #inane.

This is something that interests me—and possibly has implications for the future, especially considering Gethol is being tempted by the Crippled God: “I know you, now, Hood. I know who—what—you are. Delicious irony, the mirror of your face.” We also learn there that the Jaghut warren is dying through two causes—both the intrusions of the Imass, and the disease of the Crippled God towards all the warrens.

A quick explanation from the Crippled God about why Gethol was so summarily dismissed: “Your temper endangered Hood’s meticulous plans, you see that, do you not? It was this that so...disappointed the Lord of Death. His Herald must be obedient.” It does sort of beg the question what Hood’s long term aims are? Why is it that he needs the support of those who follow Fener? What is he trying to achieve?

Ooh, Gethol is brother to Gothos, who we have already met! And Gethol was present at the Chaining of the Crippled God as well, and is the weak link... We’re seeing an awful lot of the people now who were present at that Chaining—seeing their motivations, their desires and which side they might fall.

Hmm, interesting... We gain a new Master of the Deck in the form of Paran, just as the Crippled God decides to bring forward a House of Chains. Coincidence? I think not! But it seems as though the Crippled God is as yet unaware of Paran:

“The Deck of Dragons will resist you, Chained One. Your House will be...assailed.”

“It was ever thus. You speak of the Deck as an entity, but its maker is dust, as we both know. There is no-one who can control it. Witness the resurrection of the House of Shadows.”

This gives me a few additional questions/thoughts... Did the Crippled God have a House previously? If so, which? Who is the maker of the Deck of Dragons, and is he/she really gone? Could this be Draconus? And, finally, was the resurrection of the House of Shadow a complete accident? Would it not have happened had there been someone in control of the Deck at the time?

It’s strange, but I somehow see Quick Ben as being above playing at dice with the regular troops. Because he’s so very mysterious and goes off on his own a lot, it is humorous now seeing him interact with the other Bridgeburners. I adore the jousting between Kruppe and Quick—brilliantly played. *grins* And Kruppe must be something very odd and slippery indeed for Quick Ben not to be able to pin him down, and ascertain the source of his power.

“Warrens suddenly abound, licking the air with invisible flames, aaii! Kruppe withers beneath such scrutiny—mercy, Kruppe begs you, malicious mage!”

Quick Ben is definitely trying to find out who or what Kruppe is, but I picked this out because of the use of the word “flames”—is it only me who thinks of dragons at that point?

After having seen the Crippled God form the House of Chains, we now hear why he was able to, even with Paran’s new role: “No pattern has formed, by way of sincerest assurance, for the principal in question has fled from his appointed role. Said flight naught but an illusion, of course, though the enforced delay in self-recognition may well have direst consequences.”

Another quick mention of Whiskeyjack’s bad leg: “He rose slowly, favouring his bad leg.”

I know that we’ve talked about Rake holding the position of Knight of Dark, but is this the first time it’s been said so explicitly? Erikson here uses that description directly.

I love here how Rake approaches the subject of Quick Ben so obtusely—and some of the descriptions of Rake still have me breathless: “Rake’s veiled eyes sharpened on Whiskeyjack’s for a moment, then casually slid away once more. [...] The extraordinary eyes found the commander once again, a contact just as brief as the first.”

Ahh! Here, this must be the very beginnings of the Bridgeburners, yes? “Seventy soldiers rode at his back, a cobbled-together collection of marines, engineers, infantry and cavalry; each from squads that had effectively ceased to exist. Three years of sieges, set battles and pursuits for most of them. They were what Dassem Ultor judged could be spared, and, if necessary, sacrificed.”

*giggles* Oh, this is priceless! Seeing the origins of Fiddler’s name—and a mention that his hunches “ain’t missed yet.”

Okay, does this tell us who might be the other souls within Quick Ben? Strikes me that the dessicated remains of each mage indicate that their “life source” or soul has been taken in by the others to sustain them and keep them moving. We have so far: Kebharla (a delver of mysteries); two other corpses not given names; Renisha (High Meanas); Keluger (Septime Priest of D’riss); Narkal (sworn to Fener and aspirant to the god’s Mortal Sword); Ullan (Soletaken priestess of Soliel); Set’alahd Crool (Jhag half-blood—whose sword has been ablaze with the blessing of some unknown ascendant); Etra (mistress of Rashan warren); Birith’erah (mage of the Serc warren); Gellid (witch of the Tennes warren)... That there is eleven names—add in the “original” Quick Ben and that makes twelve... Heh, we’re still not given everything, are we? But at least we know now why Quick Ben is so familiar with the rules of the Fener religion!

And here is the real formation of the Bridgeburners: “The hunters were embraced in silence, now. Raraku’s silence. Tempered, honed, annealed under the sun. The horses beneath them were their match, lean and defiant, tireless and wild-eyed.”

You know something? This section where Whiskeyjack tells some of the mystery of Quick Ben is SO MUCH MORE rewarding, coming as it does three books into the series, than if we had had it all info-dumped within the first novel to ensure all the readers that needed hand-holding could keep up. Knowing the characters, knowing the mysteries, makes this extraordinarily powerful stuff....

Quick Ben = originally a mage of Meanas.

And here: “He was never much, sir. I doubt he’ll be able to muster a defence.” Yeah, maybe before he suddenly gained all that extra magical power and knowledge.

Hahaha, unbelievable! Kalam leading Whiskeyjack and his assorted nobodies to a death in Raraku, and communicating all the time with Adaephon Delat—and yet Whiskeyjack survives. Not only survives, but cottons onto their game and is curious enough to let it continue. Just brilliant, perfect stuff.

Awwww, Whiskeyjack revealed Quick’s secrets to Rake as a demonstration of trust and a formation of true friendship. This whole sequence has been awesome, I cannot tell you how much. And it ends on such a lonely, but hopeful note: “Gods below, I have made a friend this night. When did I last stumble on such a gift? I cannot remember. Hood’s breath, I cannot.”

This here makes me sad: “Anomander Rake watched the old man limp away down the track.” When did Whiskeyjack get old? I’m also saddened by the fact that Crone brings up the idea of an immortal trying to befriend a mortal—most of us will have watched Highlander. Who wants to live forever?

Interesting that Rake seeks comfort with Silanah. This is the dragon that he took blood from in order to become a dragon Soletaken, correct? [Bill: Dragon yes. That one, no.] Does this mean a link always remains? Or does he consider it spending time with his own kind? Is Rake ever in danger of losing himself?

Wh.....aaaa....t?! That indication of the power of the Tiste Andii is phenomenal: “At the Chaining, there were but forty of us, yet we destroyed the Crippled God’s entire realm—granted, a nascent realm. None the less, Lord. Eleven hundred...we risk devastating this entire continent.”

The Mhybe’s dream is excruciatingly painful—to be that which you are no longer, to have something which you have no longer, is no doubt something we’ve all experienced during our dreams. Personally, soon after the end of my last relationship, I had one dream where it was as though the break-up had never happened, and was crushed all over again when I awoke, so I feel The Mhybe’s pain in this instance and can entirely empathise.

“Who walks my dreamscape this time?” Heh, it seems we’ll soon experience a dreamworld as crowded as Tel’aran’rhiod!

This is a tremendously sweet scene between The Mhybe and Kruppe, and I am glad to see some abate in her misery. Also intrigued by the fact he calls her Holy Vessel and asks her to maintain faith—is she on the path to ascend? Or is he merely honouring the sacrifice she made with his words?

Umm, I’m not sure I like Antsy all that much. Right now I just find him annoying—his speech patterns, his panic at what is happening. After the generally calm demeanour of the Bridgeburners and their stoicism, he seems so out of place. I don’t find him humorous. Anyone else, or is this just me? [Bill: He may grow on you. Or not.]

This next quote? My dad was a member of the Armed Forces for 22 years and I’ve seen this in action: “Yet, when it’s done, what is the once-soldier? What does he or she become? An entire future spent walking backward, eyes on the past—its horrors, its losses, its grief, its sheer heart-bursting living?”

Still confused about ascendants and gods! See, he is called the Crippled God, but then Quick Ben thinks, “That bastard ascendant may well be chained, his body broken, but I can feel his hand—even here—twitching at invisible threads.”

And, finally, a deeply intriguing end to the chapter—where we find that the Barghast are a lost branch of the T’lan Imass, and that they have failed to develop and grow as a race due to the fact that their Elders were restrained by the rituals conducted by the Barghast. I suspect that Quick Ben has gained an ally in the form of Talamandas—and what happy coincidence that the Bridgeburners are about to try and gain the help of the White Faces and Quick Ben frees an elder spirit of that clan. *grins*

 

Bill’s Reaction to Chapter Eight:

That’s a great image, the landscape of bones. I also like how Erikson isn’t satisfied with the visual but offers up as well the auditory, with the slope “clattering” beneath Gethol as he walks. Once again, we get one of the frequent refrains in the book: those darned humans not doing the expected.

It probably needn’t be said, but yes, those lines about Gethol knowing Hood are meant to point us toward certain lines of thought regarding Hood, or at least, prepare us for certain revelations to come regarding the God of Death. We’ll leave it there for now.

A subtle reminder of our book’s title as Gethol walks through Omtose Phellack, “through the frozen memories,” i.e. memories of ice.

The “invitation” from the Crippled God is certainly an appropriate one: it “breaks” the warren in the form of a fissure, is “sweet with decay and disease,” has “bruised and pocked” the veins of ice. And from the beginning of the book and his new Deck cards, we know the CG seeks the “flawed,” a description that Gethol certainly fits thanks to his recent encounter with that pesky mortal.

Anybody else think the “meticulous plans” Hood feels were threatened by Gethol’s anger go a bit beyond poaching the Grey Swords from Fener?

It’s an interesting tone/phrasing from the Crippled God when he discusses his poisoning of Burn—less villainous ranting than one might expect. And an oddly passive voiced “these chains must be broken” phrasing. In the context of all life’s destruction, there are certainly several ways to read how that line is delivered.

It’s a nice tease, that cutting off the CG as he’s about to relate Gethol’s earlier failure “when your brother Gothos called upon you—” Called upon him for what? To do what? And that Gothos gets around in this series, doesn’t he?

Amanda, you’re right that the CG doesn’t know about Paran yet. It isn’t often we readers get to feel superior with regard to our knowledge of what’s going on in these books, so it’s a nice feeling to be reading the CG’s so-assured “there is no one who can control [the Deck]” even as we’re raising a collective hand and going “hmmmm, sir? Umm, there’s this Malazan guy...”

The CG’s means of convincing Gethol to join him is a bit depressing, eh? The whole, look at me, think of how my House will take in the broken and the failed. Now look at the world out there and tell me there aren’t a hell of a lot of those. Hard to argue with that point. As Gethol realizes once he thinks about it a bit.

It’s a nice transition from that landscape of bones we were just at a few pages ago and the tossing of the bones in the game that opens this scene. Kind of funny to see Quick Ben, the character whose mysteries drive all us readers up the wall, to be so befuddled and frustrated by Kruppe. Quick’s cry that Kruppe is “slippery” should remind us of his alias back in Darjhistan: the Eel. Serves Quick right—how’s it feel buddy?

As Amanda points out, yet another reference to Whiskeyjack’s leg. They certainly are piling up. Just saying....

I really enjoyed this scene between Rake and Whiskeyjack, the easy sense of camaraderie between the two, the way it goes unspoken but clear. And how Rake is so concisely characterized by “Rake is fine,” after WJ calls him “lord.” And the way that beyond all the entanglements of alliance and diplomacy and shared goals and geopolitics and all, it comes down to that instinct of “do I like someone?”

I also enjoyed a smile at Rake’s smile when Whiskeyjack says, “I hope you can be patient” before he launches into his story. Somehow I think Rake has that quality (and that WJ knows that of course). And of course, the story that makes up the bulk of the scene is just so intriguing for the amount of information we get regarding Quick Ben. For instance, as Amanda says, we see just why it is Quick could stun the Grey Swords with his knowledge of their titles and workings—helps to have a warrior mage sworn to Fener rattling around inside of you. It’s just another example of how if we display some of that “patience” WJ mentions with regard to story, we’ll get not all but lots of answers to mysteries that arise. I also like the catch-all out Erikson builds into his character by having one of those souls inside him being a “scholar”—so anytime Quick dredges something up unrelated to those other souls inside him we can always just say, well, Kebharla must have looked that up sometime. Finally, as Amanda says, despite the listing of names, we’re still not told everything. Grr.

Beyond the info on Quick Ben, I’m with Amanda on how it is also wonderful to see Fiddler and Hedge and Whiskeyjack’s first meeting, Fiddler with the Holy Protector’s helmet and Hedge naming him Fiddler. As a rereader, it’s just a great fond chuckle kind of moment to see these old friends we’ve spent so much time with getting together the first time.

And a few other notes. Recall Temper was in that First Sword. The way Whiskeyjack mentions names we don’t know: the mages Tesormalandis, Stumpy, which lends the book that sense of an entire world again, the idea that we’re seeing only slivers of what goes on. How the Bridgeburners were cobbled together from leftovers, something we’ll see a lot of in this series. The way the name “Bridgeburners” arrives. The image of Fiddler as “young” and a “lad.” Kalam calling all of the Bridgeburners “so young.” Hedge putting a fist through the fiddle: Hedge and Fiddler, oh so good a storyline. The clever communications method employed by Kalam and Quick and Fiddler figuring it out. Whiskeyjack going on out of simple “curiosity” —I love that about him. The image left to the imagination of the newly-created Bridgeburners storming G’danisban. Rake being impressed. The way Rake says he’ll “instruct” Kallor—which is good and all, Kallor has shown he will back down face to face with Rake, but does anyone think he’s the sort to take to being “instructed” as if he were a recalcitrant child? Whiskeyjack’s “gift” of friendship.

We see that Whiskeyjack’s belief that he made a friend this night isn’t a misreading on his part, that Rake feels that way as well. And then we get good ‘ol Crone pointing out the inherent problem with that. We know how that friendship will end most likely. And we’ve gotten some hints in this chapter.

We get some important set ups here in this relatively brief scene. The idea of the Andii merging their power together and the force that would create. And the idea being planted that Kallor may not stay leashed. You’re right Amanda, that Chaining also keeps getting fleshed out, as here we get that Rake wasn’t alone there, but was joined by a group of Andii including Korlat. And the Jaghut mentioned earlier. We’ll continue to get more on that.

This section ends and begins with a focus on dreams, and they will play a very large role by the end of the book. It’s interesting the Rhivi pieces appear like flint, were “shaped, worked, to mirror a heritage.” I’m assuming that heritage was the Imass—anyone see it differently? As usual, we were set up for this earlier when the Mhybe mentioned how the copper ornaments she wore were not working.

I like how Kruppe feels an affinity for Manek, yes, in regards to the trickster aspect (though I admit to not really seeing Kruppe so much in that vein), but I think more so for the “great heart”; Kruppe is a character who is so often a reminder of compassion’s necessity and gifts.

The scene with Paran’s ruminations on soldiering is another example of those moments that for me distinguish this series—the willingness to slow the action (or bring it to a screeching halt) and allow for some meditative moments. How does the soldier who has been one his/her own life return to the real world? A world of “solicitude and calm” that worms into their “safe prison of cold control”—the thing that has kept them sane in an insane world of death and pain and grief and horror—and leaves them vulnerable or, to use one of Erikson’s favorite words, un-armored. How does he or she move forward and turn away from a past filled with all that grief and horror? It’s no surprise that an anthropologist writer goes to the idea of ritual—the way rituals connect us to certain truths and paths or help usher us through or on to other ones: “The ritual is a turning around, a facing forward, a gentle and respectful hand like a guide on the shoulder.” Think of the rituals surrounding death—all the ways they’re meant to reconnect the griever to the social world and life.

The poisoning of the warrens, and Hood’s resisting it somewhat better, will obviously have some effect on tactics and plot, so something to keep an eye on. As is yet another reference to a connection between the Crippled God and the Pannion Seer. That’s an interesting piece of info, that the Barghast are descended from Imass—we’ll have to see how that plays out. I’ll say that the past history of the Barghast will play a major role in this series.

I like again the anthropology/archaeology look at how long-lost traditions get their start. In this case, the trees on the barrows coming from the tradition of burying the dugouts (a piece of info setting us up for a future event).

I like as well the concept of an entire culture stagnating without the guidance of their ancestor spirits. I don’t think this is exactly what Erikson was going for, but it reminds me of the “those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it” (substitute “learn from” for “remember”).

The relationship between Talamandas and Quick, which begins with some mutual respect I think as Talamandas answers Quick’s question regarding survival being a right or a privilege, is just beginning here and is going to be a true pleasure to watch unfold. And it ends in this section with the same question we all have for Quick Ben: “who are you?”

Chapter Nine

SCENE 1

Toc and Envy’s group are nearing the border of the Pannion, the city of Bastion. Toc notes Envy is a bit different since she’s returned (after her discussion with K’rul, which Toc doesn’t know about). Envy mentions how the Imass have outlasted their gods and asks Toc how he imagines the afterlife. Toc wonders what the point is—the soul passes through and Hood or someone decides what to do with it. And Envy asks what if they do nothing with it, if it wanders purposeless. He answers the Imass seem to have a purpose—killing Jaghut. When Envy asks what if none are left, Toc says ask Tool. She says she did and he doesn’t know if any are left. She tells Toc to consider what would it mean for the T’lan Imass if the war is over and he thinks “A second Ritual of Gathering . . . an end to the T’lan Imass.” And Envy says, and what if no spirit waits to embrace those “weary” souls? Toc says he hopes she is wrong because Tool is his friend. Envy informs Toc that the Summoner of the Gathering is with the Malazan army, then implies they march toward a Jaghut: “like a white-hot knife through ice, we thrust to the heart . . . of frozen timeless soul.” A Kell Hunter appears and the Seguleh move to take it on, a test of their abilities. They, um, pass. Tool is shaken by Mok’s abilities, thinking he could not have done what Mok did, and he wants to challenge him immediately, as “the First Sword of the T’lan Imass must be without equal” (this coming after a conversation on “arrogance”). Envy puts Mok to sleep to forestall the duel.

SCENE 2

As they enter inhabited areas, Envy’s group takes steps to be less visible. Tool goes to dust and Envy casts illusions over the “dogs.”

SCENE 3

They enter a temple inside the Pannion town. Inside they find bodies hanging from hooks. The priest tells them the temple master, Seerdomin Kahlt, awaits them, as does a dinner. Envy tells Kahlt the masked three are Seguleh, a name Kahlt recognizes. He considers them arrogant and says they’ll learn when they have to fight Seerdomin rather than unarmed priests. He asks if they’ve come to beg forgiveness and before Envy can answer, Toc replies they are seeking to deliver a message to the Seer in person. Kahlt says that may be allowed, but it’s not his call, and then leaves. Envy says they’ll probably be attacked at night. They’re escorted to their bedrooms and Toc falls asleep. He’s awakened by a scream and soon Baaljagg crashes in through the door. They’re joined in the hall by Garath and then eventually by Envy, who tells Toc Senu and Thurule are dealing with Kahlt and the soldiers that haven’t been taking care of yet while Garath will destroy the temple. Toc says the Seer will send an army after them and Envy says he’ll have to respond in some fashion. Toc says he doesn’t match up to this group, not being a Seguleh, a near-ascendant Ay, a dog that appears as strong as a Hound of Shadow, a T’lan Imass, or a witch. Envy almost compels him but decides against it. Tool appears and says K’ell Hunters are coming.

SCENE 4

They come to a crossroads and Envy gives a history mini-lesson based on the writing on the crossroads’ posts. She tells them the Pannion Domin seems to have been a colony of the Genostel archipelago, a group of seafarers halfway across the world whose “glory waned centuries ago.” Toc says they were clearly conquered and Envy says that’s always the way: “a civilization flowers, then a horde of grunting savages with close-set eyes show up and step on it. Malazan Empire take note.” Toc then quotes Kellanved’s words to “never ignore the barbarians,” then wryly informs Envy Kellanved was killed by a civilized woman with close-set eyes. They head toward Bastion. As they continue, Toc wonders how the Pannion is managing to feed their armies and expansion and cities with such an empty countryside. Envy says perhaps they’ll learn in Bastion. Toc challenges Envy for the real reason she’s doing what she’s doing and coercing/manipulating them all into joining her. She rejects that she is manipulating or coercing any of them and Toc doesn’t buy it, flustering her until she says “he’s just like Rake.” Pleased at having an upper hand for once, Toc relaxes and starts to relate his story, beginning with his birth, his mother being Cartheron Crust’s sister.

SCENE 5

They enter Bastion, which smells of death and fire and they realize the Pannion’s are eating their own dead. Three priests meet them and offer to guide them. They relate how Bastion was the site of the first “Embrasure” 14 years ago, where the Seer “returned from the Mountain, speaking the Words of Truth, and the power of those words rippled forward.” A caravan was killed (“rewarded”) and the first Child of the Dead Seed born nine months later—Anaster, who now leads an army of Tenescowri, along with his mother, toward Capustan. The group comes across Anaster and a mob and as chaos ensues, Toc leaves the group to “join” the Tenescowri since it’s heading for the Malazan army.

 

Amanda’s Reaction to Chapter Nine:

Esslee Monot dismisses the notion of the K’Chain Che’Malle. Oh dear....

Pfft, still not liking Envy, with her “darling’s” and the way she acts with Toc.

There is a new closeness between Toc and Baaljagg, I note.

I just adore hearing Toc’s thoughts—firstly his musings on the old Emperor: “...the Emperor was a tyrant...I think. Then again, maybe not. Despotic, sure, and monomaniacal, even slightly insane...” and then his observations of Mok’s new adornments: “Hood’s breath, does the man even know? If I was Senu or Thurule, would I dare tell him?” Just brilliant!

And then a very interesting discussion on the T’lan Imass—the fact that they haved outlived their gods and that their war with the Jaghut might be over (the only thing left to sustain them). What next for them? Everything is currently building towards the Second Gathering....

Then a paragraph which is pretty much the distillation of everything we have said regarding “sides” in a war: Unhuman creatures sworn to genocide. Brutal, deadly, implacable. Relentless beyond all reason. Toc nodded towards the T’lan Imass ahead of them. “Because he’s my friend, Lady Envy.”

Mention of the fact that the Pannion Seer either is or has connections to the Jaghut: “Like a white-hot knife through ice, we thrust to the heart...of a frozen, timeless soul.”

Wow, just wow—now we see the true strength and skill of the Seguleh—others have struggled to take down the K’Chain Che’Malle, but Mok just slices this one apart with ease, and with maybe a little nonchalance. I love how Toc then tries to convince Tool that he could have done as much.

Ugh, ugh, ugh—something about Envy and her flirtations repels me. She is so manipulative, so cruel. I suspect this is going to be one of those characters who just rubs me the wrong way no matter what she does. [Bill: Imagine her and Antsy together....]

And ahhh, an immediate picture of how delightful the Pannion Seer and his (her?) followers are—murdering the villagers who have assisted building a temple. Not the first atrocity, I suspect....

“No respect is accorded mindless animals within the Domin.” Bah, we’ve seen some beasts with fine minds in the series so far.

Lady Envy really is as subtle as a brick through a window, isn’t she?

This is a fine horror sequence—the uneasy dinner, the lack of other inhabitants, the drugged (magicked sleep), and then moans and cries from outside the bedchamber. But what horrifies me most is the change in Garath—a Hound? “The gentle pet was gone this night, and in its place Garath had become a slayer of the highest, coldest order.”

I do think that Toc underestimates himself some when he says this: “Lady, I’m no Seguleh. I’m not an ay on the edge of ascendancy. I’m not a T’lan Imass. I’m not a dog that can stare eye-to-level-eye with a Hound of Shadow! And I’m not a witch who can boil men alive with a snap of her fingers!”

Oho! It sounds as though Garath could be recruited into the ranks of the Hounds of Shadow, but is a little reluctant about the idea. *grins*

Nice to see Toc resisting Envy’s charms as well! I like the comparison with Rake.

*chokes* Alright, chalk up a further atrocity in the form of eating their own dead. I guess it does remove that pesky problem of trying to sustain an ever-expanding army.

An army of hundreds, and Toc worries that none will be left alive to proceed towards the Malazans after the wrath of Baaljagg, Garath, the Seguleh, Tool and Envy herself. Ye gods, there is some firepower... A truly explosive end to the chapter!

 

Bill’s Reaction to Chapter Nine:

I like the little characterization we get of Dujek via Toc’s memories: “the old High Fist despised tyranny.” As well as how, in usual Erikson fashion, such a declarative statement immediately gets shaded in complexity: “which is ironic, since the Emperor was a tyrant . . . I think. Then again, maybe not.” Also nice coming after Quick’s freeing of Talamandas: the world writ large and the world writ small.

We’ve had hints earlier about one possible outcome of the Second Gathering, and here it comes a little more bluntly—the idea that it may lead to the “end” of the T’lan Imass. Recall what the Grey Swords were told, that the T’lan Imass might be of “less value” at the completion of the Gathering. Here, I’d point you to the line about no spirits “waiting to embrace all those weary, so very weary souls.” Remember that one.

While we’ve got the file cabinet drawer open in this area:

  • “a frozen, timeless soul”
  • “if I stay with these people, I am a dead man”
  • “the power of your stone arrows”

I like Toc’s interior monologue as they enter the Pannion: “Unfamiliar faces, gauging regard . . . The natural effects of society. Do we all possess a wish to remain unseen, unnoticed? Is the witnessing of our actions by others are greatest restraint?” It’s a common cultural concept—that we behave differently knowing the eyes of our friends and family are on us. Would we give in to our baser or more cowardly/selfish desires/acts if those eyes weren’t on us? Who are we when we’re at home, unwitnessed? What stays the hand in public may not work in private. What happens to those who travel in the Heart of Darkness where those eyes and societal rules and strictures and comforts aren’t around? Keep an, ahem, eye on this idea of witnessed and unwitnessed; it will stay with us throughout the series all the way to the very, very end.

When Envy tells Toc jokingly, “then again, we could embrace the faith—do you think we’ll convince him” little does she know that this is what Toc will in fact end up doing (kinda).

More substantively, another bitter twist of observation regarding humanity: “have you ever noticed how language can be twisted to mask brutality?” This came up at least in DG if you recall, the way we have to demonize an enemy, make him “inhuman.” This broadens the idea a bit, the way we refuse to hold a mirror up to ourselves (as we’d hate what we saw) by distorting the vision through naming it something else (“collateral damage” etc.) Language is the “mask we wear,” to hide our acts not only from others but ourselves. It’s an interesting contrast with the Seguleh as Envy points out.

“Well-trained” beasts indeed. Envy’s got some nicely dry lines throughout this section to help break up some of the darker plot events and musings. Sorry Amanda, I kinda like Envy.

Darker musings such as “It’s always the way, isn’t it? A civilization flowers, then a horde of grunting savages with close-set eyes show up and step on it.” Cycles of history—Envy and Duiker would get along well I think. And we get yet another sign of Kellanved’s wisdom: “never ignore the barbarians.” And more dry wit with Toc’s observation that he was killed by a civilized woman with close-set eyes.

Poor Toc. Hard not to empathize with his feelings of inadequacy surrounded by the company he keeps after all: First Sword of the T’lan Imass, a trio of Seguleh (including the 3rd), seemingly ascendant or near-ascendant creatures, and Lady Envy. He reminds me a bit of Xander in Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. Of course, Xander ended up saving the world all by himself one season, so perhaps Toc shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss himself. What a horrible choice though—to join that army of cannibals. This is not going to be a pleasant journey....


Bill Capossere writes short stories and essays, plays ultimate frisbee, teaches as an adjunct English instructor at several local colleges, and writes SF/F reviews for fantasyliterature.com.

Amanda Rutter contributes reviews and a regular World Wide Wednesday post to fantasyliterature.com, as well as reviews for her own site floortoceilingbooks.com (covering more genres than just speculative), Vector Reviews and Hub magazine.

67 comments
Steven Halter
1. shalter
@Amanda&@Bill:

Quick was a “middling wizard” “He was never much, sir. I doubt he’ll be able to muster a defence.”
Heh, we’re still not given everything, are we?


Nope, we're definitely not given everything here. There's the two unnamed corpses, but there is some misdirection going on here also. Kalam's trying to underplay things and WJ's knowledge isn't quite complete. For example, we already know that Quick wasn't just a "middling" wizard of Meanas. In GotM, we know that Shadowthrone recognizes him:
"It is you! Delat! You shape-shifting bastard."

and that Ben was (the?) high priest. So, middling -- not so much.Great is the mystery of QB. :-)
Chris Hawks
2. SaltManZ
I seem to recall Envy rubbing me the wrong way before, but this (third) time through, I'm really enjoying her. I know I quoted this yesterday in the previous post, but I love how when she's talking with Toc early in the chapter, she asks, "Can no value be found in good intentions?" And then, later, insists that "Intentions are unimportant, my dear." :)

The conversation about the T'lan Imass—that their war may be over, the possibility of a second ritual to make them mortal again, and that no spirits remain to embrace them after death—moved me to tears.

You know something? This section where Whiskeyjack tells some of the mystery of Quick Ben is SO MUCH MORE rewarding, coming as it does three books into the series, than if we had had it all info-dumped within the first novel to ensure all the readers that needed hand-holding could keep up. Knowing the characters, knowing the mysteries, makes this extraordinarily powerful stuff...
I agree 100 percent, Amanda. I think this is a big part of why its fans love this series so much; yes, it can be work, but these little moments of payoff (and because so much is withheld initially, there are so many of them) make it so very worth it.
Steven Halter
3. shalter
@SaltManZ&@Amanda: Yes, I completely agree that it is cool that WJ's description of the nascent Bridgeburners chase of Quick Ben happens here in the third book.
It is a fantastic insight moment into Quick, Kalam, WJ, Fiddler, Hedge, the Bridgeburners, and Rake. We get a bunch of info in a very nice fashion. Also, it doesn't tell us everything. It hints at more things around the edges or maybe even right in the middle.
It's really one of my favorite scenes.
Thomas Jeffries
4. thomstel
There's nothing like a couple chapters of serious competence porn.

I mean come on, anyone who's read any Jordan over the last couple decades who read the bit between Whiskeyjack and Rake, didn't you just want to squee the WHOLE TIME? I mean, capable characters talking and respecting one another?! And it's not even an isolated incident in this book; there's several more very poignant exchanges between those two to come, including a borderline weepy bit following a bit of misunderstood mercy on the battlefield...

And I don't know about the rest of you, but even in my elementary school days, I always enjoyed being on the team that had quality over quantity. I don't care for Toc devaluing his own ability (or maybe he's just realizing that, in comparison, he puts the mission at more of a risk), but seeing the motley crew mopping up an entire temple full of bad guys...still makes me grin like crazy. Knowing that the full plan for Team Envy is to slice a path all the way to the Seer himself, through his hordes of cannibals and packs of undead sword-armed allosaurs...yeah, what seemed silly to start seems a bit more plausible after this point...
Sydo Zandstra
5. Fiddler
Hi guys. Kinda busy in RL, but here's a quick stop by comment:

@Amanda:
Interesting that Rake seeks comfort with Silanah. This is the dragon that he took blood from in order to become a dragon Soletaken, correct?

tCG spoiler:
@Bill: Are we sure about that? (considering that when we see/find out about Tiam in tCG, the phrase 'drinking from Tiam's blood' gets a whole new dimension...)

Umm, I’m not sure I like Antsy all that much. Right now I just find him annoying—his speech patterns, his panic at what is happening. After the generally calm demeanour of the Bridgeburners and their stoicism, he seems so out of place. I don’t find him humorous. Anyone else, or is this just me?

Antsy is one of those soldiers that whines and stuff when he's not in a battle. Comparable to football (for Bill: soccer) players, who seem to be such nice people in person, but who change into killing machines right after the ref blows his whistle to start the match....

Note: After Blackwood and Pale and all the other bad stuff that happened in the Genebackis campaign, Antsy is still alive. That proves something...

For the record, I like him too, and I like Envy as well. Loved the mask thing...

[i]An army of hundreds, and Toc worries that none will be left alive to proceed towards the Malazans after the wrath of Baaljagg, Garath, the Seguleh, Tool and Envy herself. Ye gods, there is some firepower... A truly explosive end to the chapter!

My answer, that somehow stays in italics whatever I do to it:
Not this army of hundreds only, Amanda. The whole territory of the Pannion Domin is between Envy's party and where the Malazans are now. Toc was thinking long term here...
Iris Creemers
6. SamarDev
The story of the founding of the Bridgeburners (including the news there was no mastersergeant for Fiddler, but Whiskeyjack!) is pure gold.
I very much like the characterization of Rake when Whiskeyjack enters his tent, which is 'indistinguishable from all the other tents of the Tiste Andii', so no glitter and glamour for their highest Lord.
He found Anomander Rake seated in a leather-backed folding camp chair, his long legs stretched out before him. An empty matching chair was opposite, and set to one side within reach of both was a small table on which sat a carafe of wine and two goblets.
This is so Rake. And so unlike the standard 'dark-Lord-with-the-even-darker-sword'.
Remember that when in GotM Rake visits Baruk for the first time, it is a visit full of dread / tension, even although Baruk offers him wine at his desk. During the third visit they sit with wine at the fire, while Rake is repetedly described as stretching his legs towards the fire. An easy pose we will see back later in the series.
Hugh Arai
7. HArai
thomstel@4: I didn't read it so much as Toc undervaluing himself as much as judging he's competing in the wrong "weight class".
B T
8. amphibian
Oh, Stumpy! Wait till you first-time readers find out all about about Stumpy.

I could go on for days, but I'll let you have the pleasure unspoiled...
Robin Lemley
9. Robin55077
Ah, finally we are up to the story of the formation of the "Bridgeburners" !!!

Here are a few of my thoughts as I read through this today:

First, isn’t it odd to see Quick Ben referred to as a “middling wizard”?

Whiskeyjack goes on to name the Empire’s mages fighting against the Holy Protector’s cadre in Aren…”Bellurdan, Nightchill, Taschrenn, A’Karonys, Tesormalandis, and Stumpy...” That's right, Stumpy. Do you think SE throws "Stumpy" at the end of this list of impressive names, just to see if we are awake and paying attention? "Stumpy" always makes me laugh here.

A few paragraphs later, we see how Fiddler got his name, directly from Wiskeyjack, not the same route taken by almost every other soldier we meet who received their “name” from Braventooth.

And here we finally get to learn (and I use that term very, very loosely) about the different warrens that QB can use and how he came about them...through shifting the souls of 11 other mages into his own body. At this point, we know:

1. Kebharla – Delver of mysteries - more scholar than mage
2. Nothing revealed
3. Nothing revealed
4. Renisha – High Meanas
5. Keluger – Septime Priest of D’riss
6. Narkal – sworn to Fenner and aspirant to the god’s Mortal Sword
7. Ullan – Soletaken priestess of Soliel
8. Set’alahd Crool – Jhag half-blood, unknown ascendant
9. Etra – mistress of Rashan
10. Birith’erah – Mage of Serc
11. Gellid – witch of the Tennes warren
12. Quick Ben – mage of Meanas (“Priest of Shadow” per GotM)

After the pursuit across Raraku, the hunters were “tempered, honed, annealed under the sun.” WJ saw in Kalam’s face “disbelief, awe, and more than a little fear.” “Raraku had taken them all.” QB says, “Commander, your soldiers…” “They are more…and less. No longer what they once were. Raraku, sir, has burned the bridges of their pasts, one and all – it’s all gone.” “And they are yours. Heart and soul. They are yours.”

QB says that he and Kalam will join Whiskeyjack, if he will have them and with Kalam’s reply, “The Claw will be…displeased” “Too bad for Surly” this gives us the answer as to how/why Kalem left the Claw.

Whiskeyjack surveyed his soldiers, “a company, culled from the army’s cast-offs, now a bright, hard core. “Gods, what have we made here?” and the next paragraph tells us, “The first blood-letting engagement of the Bridgeburners was the retaking of G’danisban – a mage, an assassin, and seventy soldiers who swept into a rebel stronghold of four hundred desert warriers and crushed them in a single night.”

Thus, the formation of the Bridgeburners!
Tricia Irish
10. Tektonica
I think the chapter with WJ and Rake is my favorite of this book. (Not that there aren't tons to choose from!)

Not only do we get all the awesome history of the BBs....and I agree Amanda, waiting for it made it extra sweet.....but we also get incredible humanism from WJ and Rake. To find common ground, respect and trust in the midst of war and edgy factions, takes a great leap of faith, a trust in ones instincts. And Thomstel, you are so right....communication...openness!! (Much lacking in WoT characters.)

I'm going to keep that handy-dandy list of QB's warrens on my desktop for reference from now on. Love that guy. Thank you Bill and Robin.

The Toc and Tool friendship is wonderful, and the QB/Talamandas relationship is unlikely yet obvious, from mutual respect standpoint. Lady Envy is just "meh" to me, but I don't dislike her. Antsy is a riot....in a cranky kind of way.

I really do love the way we slowly get to know these characters. No early info dumps from SE, and I've grown to love it! I also love how both race and sex differences aren't even mentioned other than as pure description. So refreshing! It doesn't matter!
Per Beltoft Madsen
11. Herr_Flick
@ 4
I have to say I only got halfway through this book the first time i tried reading this series.
Maybe it's because I never read superhero comics, or didn't start playing roleplaying games until I was a little older, but Lady Envy's little unkillable party just became to much to stomach for me. Call it competence porn, I hoped someone would just figure out none of these guys were using shields and would shoot them.

I have read the whole series, and really liked it - but I had to constantly remind myself to accept the "level" of some of the characters. (And even then, I had to take a second break from the series in a later book, when a man performs precision surgery with a longsword against an armored barbarian wielding a two-handed sword - it just became too much for me).

Having said that, this series is brilliant. The characters and their interactions, the scope and history is what makes these books. I have laughed, teared up and been intrigued. I just had to prepare myself before reading each book.
Robin Lemley
12. Robin55077
Sorry everyone! As I read my chapters each week, I make notes as to points I initially think to make. USUALLY, I read everything posted by all of you (and Amanda & Bill) before I post. However, as I am at work this evening and my internet connection at work is questionable on the best of nights, when I logged on earlier this evening and realized that I did, in fact, have a good connection, I simply posted before reading everything else.

Sorry that my post was basically just a repeat of other’s posts! That will teach me not to read first!

:-)
karl oswald
13. Toster
eh, it's not such a big deal robin. no harm, no foul.

i love looking at that list you made though, because despite the fact that we've got a soletaken, a half-jhag, a potential mortal sword and a bevy of witches and wizards, those two corpses that get no mention are the ones that stick in your skull. who are they? what did they add to QB's mix? as the series goes on, that question becomes ever more pressing and the subject of some pretty ridiculous theories. this guy is one of the most compelling characters in all of fantasy, imo.

@ 11 Herr Flick: i definitely get where you're coming from in terms of "come on! just put an arrow in her skull dammit!" it seems like it should be easy, but if she can see it coming, envy would probably be able to prevent it killing her. a few chapters from now we'll see just how ridiculous things are going to get with envy's group. however, i always thought that this was a good way of reiterating that in this world, there are characters who will literally tear armies to pieces if you give them the chance. take icarium. take rake. take raest. now take envy.

edit: those who have finished the series might get a slight lawl at the "arrow in the skull" line. just so you know, totally unintentional :P
Gerd Kochem
14. Kah-thurak
@Herr Flick

I had to take a second break from the series in a later book, when a man performs precision surgery with a longsword against an armored barbarian wielding a two-handed sword

Naturally you do have a point here, but when I read this I immidiately thought of a K1 fight I saw some years ago: One fighter was extremly passive for nearly two rounds while his opponent dished out kicks and punches by the dozens. But by the end of round two he shot one clean roundhouse kick, perfectly hitting the kidney with the ball of his right foot. The other guy went down, and couldnt continue. Some things arent as impossible as one might think ;)
Jozefine Propper
15. Onderduikboot
I just registered with Tor.com. If only for the Malazan Reread. Been following the reread since I started to reread the series myself. First time I got to Toll the Hounds, realized that I missed a lot of details and started all over again. At the moment I'm rereading RotCG. But every wednesday I'm looking forward to all the comments. It's great to get all your insights. No comments on the reread at this early stage. But just wanted you to know I'm peeking. Totally hooked anyway!
Amir Noam
16. Amir
Note the echoes between this exchange:
Gethol: "Your House will be... assailed."
CG: "It was ever thus"

and the Standoff of Doom™ from chapter 5, where we had:
Rake: "You stand alone."
Kallor: "It was ever thus."
Amir Noam
17. Amir
Bill/Amanda,

FYI, the link at the top of the post to the main re-read index is broken.
David DeLaney
18. David DeLaney
Just a quick note -
Amanda:
>It does sort of beg the question what Hood’s long term aims are?

Er, no. It _raises_ that question. It doesn't start off with an answer to the question and then go to asking the question, it's not circular logic. Calls for the question maybe, but "begging the question" is an idiomatic something else.

(and ... Hood's long-term aims? I don't often get to say "you wouldn't believe me if I told you", but this is one of those times. File that thought...)

--Dave
Brian R
19. Mayhem
@Amanda
"Still confused about ascendants and gods! "

The easiest way to deal with it for now is the logical simplification that All Gods are Ascendants, but not all Ascendants are Gods.
It doesn't actually work that way, but it helps (see #1)

It sort of runs on a scale similar to ancient mythology
* Ordinary mortal (for varying levels of ordinary)
* Powerful mortal (eg. your average mage, shaman or named Tiste)
* Ascendant (Demigod, has attained powers beyond ordinary warren usage, eg. Envy, Caladan Brood, the various Soletaken)
* Lesser God (the newest gods, still finding out the limits of their powers, eg Shadowthrone, the First Heros like Treach or Ryllandaras)
* God (standard powerful deity, evolved from modern worship, eg. Beru, Mowri)
* Elder God (deity that has been around a *long* time, predates the warrens as we know them, tied to more primitive forms of worship, eg Mael, K'rul, Draconus)
Elemental Forces (eg. Mother Dark)

Most people we see mentioned as Ascendants who haven't gone further to full on Godhood appear to have intentionally refrained, for deliberate reasons. One factor is that to be a God entails having worshippers which grants additional power, but the worshippers in turn can impose controls on what that god can do, and can siphon off that power to their own ends (eg. Mael & the Jhistal). Many of the more notable Ascendants actively discourage worship.

#1 We later find out much more of the shifting paths of the pantheon, and the origins of some of the more powerful members but that falls under RAFO. Also Elder races may sidestep the whole process.
Steven Halter
20. shalter
Herr Flick@ 11: Just remember that we aren't in Kansas anymore.

As Toster@13 mentioned, if an ascendant warren user has time to see and/or plan for attacks, then they aren't going to be fazed by them. You learn a few tricks in 100,000 years.
So, one just needs to adjust one's disbelief to the current world situation and then let it flow.
Gerd Kochem
21. Kah-thurak
Lady Envy should, in a combat situation, have enough wards in place to foil any simple attack on her. Remember how Tattersail wasnt simply killed by the Hound of Shadow in GotM and she was "only" close to beeing a High Mage, while Lady Envy is a little more than that.
Amir Noam
22. Amir
Obviously, if Lady Envy saw an attack coming, she could simply wrap the incoming arrows in flows of Air, and then weave Fire and Earth just so to... hmm... wrong series...
B T
23. amphibian
To supplement Kah-thurak's point @ 14,

I'm a mid-level grappler for my experience and weight class. I've gone across the country and rolled with people, so I feel pretty confident in saying that. Perhaps within the year, I'll rise to the upper level of my division and win a few tournaments.

When I roll with someone much better, someone who was or is elite, they slice through me like that "longsword wielder" against the "two-hand sword guy". They understand the game/action on a level that is so far beyond mine that it's instinctual. Their skills and movements are so deeply imbedded within their neurological pathways that they are seeing and reacting to moves near instantaneously, while I lag behind. They're also utilizing perfect or near-perfect technique, while mine isn't as good.

That gap between action and reaction only widens the more time I stay "alive" against them. It gets bigger and bigger until their much better technique puts me in worse and worse positions and they inevitably defeat me.

Furthermore, defense does not mean "retreat". It means fending off attacks until the moment to go on the offensive arrives. The very best are incredibly good at surviving until that moment and then taking advantage of it so well that it's eerie. Roger Gracie, the world's best submission grappler, is a master at this. He beats everybody on the planet with the simplest, most basic moves and it's because his defense is perfect and his attacks are perfectly timed, weighted and considered.

TL;DR: It actually is realistic to see surgical destructions of good fighters by the very best in combat sports.
Thomas Jeffries
24. thomstel
re: BBs and Whiskeyjack:

“And they are yours. Heart and soul. They are yours.”

Cripes, that line is fraught with portent now, ain't it? It used to just be fairly dramatic...
Thomas Jeffries
25. thomstel
@Mayhem

"Most people we see mentioned as Ascendants who haven't gone further to full on Godhood appear to have intentionally refrained, for deliberate reasons."

I wonder if it's anything like stopping a Pokeman from evolving? ;)

I've been curious about this too. There's quite a lot of data points out there that seem enough to create some rules. Then you sit down and try to and it doesn't make sense: too many seeming exceptions.

"There is more than one path to ascendancy," he mutters, frustrated.
Iris Creemers
26. SamarDev
Hi Onderduikboot, welcome on the active side! Peeking is nice, participating even better...
(And another Dutch native to join the club, I guess? :-) )
Kimani Rogers
28. KiManiak
Thanks Amanda and Bill

You know, I was tempted to write that Chapter 8 was one of my favorite chapters so far, but I find that 3 of the 9 Chapters we’ve read so far are among my favorites, and I know that there are at least a couple more coming up (probably more) that also rank up there. So, let’s just say that I like this book a lot, but that I really like about a third of this book (I could still do without all the sections on the Mhybe)

Anyway, I find that the common traits that the 3 chapters I really liked so far(Chapters 3, 5 and 8, in case you were wondering) share, is that a lot of information about individuals makeup/abilities, origin stories and or discussion of capabilities is introduced to the reader, but in a way that flows naturally in the story and fits the situation (Character X isn’t telling Character Y something they already know; Character X is telling something important and relevant to Character Y that informs both the reader and Character). Whether its info about Silverfox/SoCN/Ravens in chapter 3, or Paran/Master of the Deck/almost-Rake-&-Kallor-vs-Brood-& Whiskeyjack-over-Silverfox-standoff in 5 or the “Whiskeyjack shares a drink and the story of the Bridgeburners with Rake” in this Chapter, you get a lot of information delivered in a not-at-all-dry way.

Some more quick observations:

I love that Quick Ben was completely confounded by Kruppe!

Thanks to the various folks (Amanda, Bill & commenters) who pointed out what souls, warrens and other attributes are all jumbled up in the mysterious Quick Ben. Also, what information we don’t know yet (what did those other 2 unnamed characters gift Quick Ben with?)

I totally agree that getting the origin story of the Bridgeburners 3 books into the series is so much more rewarding. We had to work for it (one thousand pages plus of reading worth of work, darnit)! And, we know that there’s still so much more about each of these characters origins that we don’t know (and may never know, for that matter).

As for Antsy, yeah I’m not a big fan. Just wait; he’ll continue to annoy. Envy also tends to irritate me, but only when she tries to be all seductive and manipulative. She is pretty good in a fight, though.

I recall that when I first read this that Garath raised a lot of questions. I’m currently halfway into BH and I think I still have those questions. Then again, this reread has shown me that I missed a lot of things in this book the first time I read it, so it could just be me.
Kimani Rogers
29. KiManiak
Some comments on some of the comments :-)

thomstel@4 – re: capable characters talking – Yeah, I love WoT but the times you wanted to basically strangle someone for not communicating with someone else (coughPerrinandFailecough) are almost innumerable. Truly appreciate that Erikson shows us Rake and Whiskeyjack sitting down, talking, and voila, a cool friendship based upon respect has been born.

@8 & 9 – Okay, you guys have sold me. I’m looking forward to finding out more about this Stumpy character

tek@10 – re: race and sex handled by Erikson in this series – I think this is an excellent point. Race and gender are mostly only noted for descriptive purposes only. Few exceptions prove interesting: the women in Capustan being unable to join the army until the Grey Swords came along, for one.

Herr_flick@11 – I don’t want it to seem like folks are ganging up against your opinion or anything, as you definitely are entitled to feel what you feel about this or any other book/series. I will say that, for me, part of what makes this series interesting is that there are multiple levels of skill/power that Erikson has shown, and that I can buy into an elite character (especially if someone is considered a “mortal sword,” a Third of the Seguleh, or a Champion) being able to do something that seems incredible, like slicing tendons and muscles to render their opponent essentially unable to move.

Toster@13 – when you listed all of the skills/abilities that were linked to the souls inhabiting Quick Ben, it leads to all kind of questions. Like, you have to wonder if those souls’ warrens are the only skills/abilities that he can access? And yeah, what did those 2 unnamed people add to QB’s arsenal?

Mayhem@19 – Thanks for the breakdown of the Power Levels. Periodically, Erikson will have a character present a way for the reader to try to understand the whole “Ascendant/god” thing, or the warren/magic thing. As of halfway through Bonehunters, I have to say that the best Ascendant explanation I have seen/read was when one relatively new Ascendant was explaining it to another relatively new Ascendant in BH.

As for the warren/magic thing, I think the best explanation I’ve seen so far is from a certain red-armored mage to a female traveling companion in Midnight Tides. But who knows, parts of each explanation could be contradicted and then explained in an even better way in a future book…
Amir Noam
30. Amir
I'll add my voice to the choir and say that I, too, feel that it's much better to find out about the origins of the Bridgeburners in the middle of book 3. (and did anyone here when first reading the series imagined that their name refered to them having "burned the bridges of their pasts"?)

This is also that exact reason why I think it's not the right move to read Night of Knives immediately after Gardens of the Moon. Besides providing a possible spolier as to the identities of Shadowthrone and Cotillion (it's only really spelled out in Deadhouse Gates, though observant readers can guess it earlier), reading NoK so soon also ruins the build-up of reader imagination as to the events in Y'Ghatan and the fall of Dassem.
David DeLaney
31. ksh1elds555
Re: the souls in QB... one of them is mentioned to be a half-Jaghut Soletaken. Does that mean QB is soletaken? I think I read it somewhere but can't recall reading about him shapeshifting. Although, there's so much detail in the books, I might have missed it.
Steven Halter
32. shalter
kshields555@31:Exactly what form of soletaken is QB is one of the hotly debated Malazan topics.
Since he did (in some fashion) take 11 other souls into his body, one could say that he has a diversity of souls and is therefore a d'ivers or at least the very essense of the word soletaken.
Whether or not he has actually ever been witnesed shape shifting is another interesting question.
Iris Creemers
33. SamarDev
@ 31 Ksh1elds555
Shadowthrone has called QB a 'shapeshifting bastard' in one of the previous books and the witch in Pale (ch. 4) called him a 'snake of the desert, but up till now we haven't seen proof of it, just hints like these.
(btw, you are mixing two souls: Ullan = Soletaken priestess of Soliel and'Set’alahd Crool = Jhag half-blood. --> don't make it more complicated than it already is ;-))
Kimani Rogers
35. KiManiak
Amir@30 –

Yeah, I followed the recommendation of you, Fid, Tek and others to not read Night of Knives until after reading Deathhouse Gates and Memories of Ice (I actually read it right after Midnight Tides and before starting Bone Hunters). I appreciated the recommendation; it would have been a challenge for me to go from Gardens of the Moon and NoK and then still want to read DG, because there wasn’t much of a link between the first two.

DG is great, but it also takes some characters from GotM and continues to flesh them out. You start off the 2nd book being invested in some of those characters. I was drawn in to Fid, Kalam, Croakus and Apsalar. I was able to learn more about Coltaine, Duiker, Heboric, Felisin, etc because early on there was still some familiarity with the characters (and we have the link of Ganoes’s two sisters). We were given greater looks into some of the Bridgeburners (hints of their past, more current demonstrations of how badass they actually are), and I was hooked enough to want to learn more about them, as well as these other, newer characters.

I think it would have been a lot harder to go from reading about Whiskeyjack, Ganoes, Kalam, Rake, etc if the next book I then read had little (if any) reference to any of those characters and instead only introduced Temper (who was cool) and Kiska (who was incredibly annoying). Without the support of a reread group, I may not have carried on :-)

I also think that Erikson may have had a general idea about how the readers would react to no direct linkage from one book to the next so early on in the series, which is why House of Chains (written the way it is) is unleashed on the reader -in its particular style- as book #4, when the average Malazan reader is already invested in this universe and will go through those first 250 or so pages. Also, that may be why he felt comfortable doing something like what he did for MT and know that, again, the average Malazan reader will be able to go through a whole book like that and appreciate some of the broadening of the universe without having a lot of (initially obvious) links to the previous works.

Finally, in going from NoK to BH, I thought I noticed some slight changes in the way the realm and inhabitants of Shadow are portrayed between the MoI/HoC representation (before NoK was written) to the BH representation.

Or, maybe they had always been written that way and I was only able to appreciate the distinction after being given the foundation of the first 4 Erikson Malazan novels and then the slight shift in “focus” from the Esselmont Malazan novel.

Either way, a big thanks to those Malazan vets for their guidance and advice; I am truly loving this series and this reread.
pat purdy
36. night owl
Hi everyone- I've been in a mad scramble to catch up on the last 3 postings, I was away preparing for, and helping my mom celebrate her 100th birthday.

I agree that these were important and revealing chapters. Great commentary and clarification for me on some points that flew over my head.

One thing I did pick up on, and did not see anyone else mention, is when Mhybe is internalizing that she had the life force for silverfox, since she was the only one alive of the group ( Pran Chole, Nightchill and Bellurdan). Then in the scene of Tool talking to Toc, he says that something is drawing on his life force. Since he is 'dead'....what life force? Will we find out who or what is drawing on his power?

Once again, lots of answers and many more questions!
M D
37. Abalieno
Err, I'm still busy commenting the previous chapters and require some assistance...

Not looking for spoilers but I'm raising some questions that I'd rather narrow down. At least to make a distinction between proper questions and those that are only result of misunderstanding (at least a few of them).

So could some of you go back to that previous chapter and clarify certain things? :) Only need to read my very last comment there, the questions are bundled there.

Repeat: no spoilers, just help me rearrange the pieces we have already.

I read all of the useful ZetaStriker's post but lots of questions are still there (and I think he slipped in a spoiler or two as well...)
karl oswald
38. Toster
@ 36 night owl. tool is referring to the power of the tellann warren that is bound to every t'lan imass. as the first sword he is kind of a special case - not quite a bonecaster but something more than a regular t'lan.
Bill Capossere
39. Billcap
Fiddler@5
I know what you mean and you definitely have a point (thanks for whiting out btw), but this was one of those where I figured anything but a short and sweet, if oversimplified, response would be better than allowing some continued speculation down that path without the context to come, which it seemed to me would lead to more problems than it was worth being more precise. (if that makes sense)

HerrFlick et. al
I confess, as I’ve done already a few times, that I’m not unbothered by some of the power level issues here and there. They just get outweighed in my mind by all the good and great stuff so I can quickly move on from those few moments where the suspension of disbelief doesn’t quite hold for me.

Toster: I wondered about that intentionality the moment I read that :)

Robin: as others have said, certainly no apologies needed

Mayhem: nice clean hierarchy--thanks!
Mieneke van der Salm
40. Mieneke
Sorry for being scarce, real life has this sucky habit of getting in the way of my online time. Anyway, I read last week's post but didn't really have anything to add to it, so didn't comment there. This week though, I had to comment if only to squee! What brilliant chapters were these!

Onderduikboot @15: Welcome to the reread and your nick had me sniggering. I guess we Dutchies are multiplying, aren't we? Or are you Flemish?

Mayhem @19: Thank you for that very concise explanation on ascendancy versus godhood. It may be simplified, but it clarified things for me a lot!

night owl @36: oh wow, 100! Congrats to your mom, that is one special birthday :) I hope she had a lovely time!

So on to my own comments *let the squeeing commence*

Okay, first of all, the punitive army of the Seguleh has me snorting every time I see it. That being said, they face their first K'Chain and they score! I really hadn''t expected that, I thought they'd need Tool.

I know Amanda and several others are irritated by Envy, but I kinda like her. Her flirting with Toc is funny and I love that Toc actually manages to hold his own half of the time.

Moving a bit back, I adore the encounter between Rake and Whiskeyjack and the genesis story for the Bridgeburners. Although it raises more questions than it answers. As has been observed by many others ;-)

And the revelation that the Barghast were actually descended from Imass, wow! I wonder how that will play out.
Amir Noam
41. Amir
Re: The Imass/Barghast revelation:

Actually, I was always underwhelmed by this. Way back in GotM we've already been informed that humans are the descendants of the Imass.

Was there really such a sense of mystery about the origins of the Barghast?
Chris Hawks
42. SaltManZ
@41: I guess you could assume that Imass -> Human implies Imass -> Barghast (even though Barghast are tehnically nonhuman) just on account of their near-humanness. But the real revelation, to me, is finding out that they're a mix of Imass and Tartheno/Thelomen/Toblakai.
Amir Noam
43. Amir
Tuesday:

'How many other fools have tried to outwit Bauchelain, I wonder?'
'Cemeteries full, I'd imagine.'
Amir Noam
44. Amir
'Well, a god that finds friends instead of mindless worshippers… dammit, I'm his, Gruntle, body and soul.'
Steven Halter
46. shalter
Bek Okhan assures us the denial will be absolute, and final.
T'isten'ur, the Grey-Skinned. Demons in the oldest tales who collected heads, yet kept the victims living…heads that remained watchful...

"Beru fend me, I underestimate even the true idiots in this company.'




Amir Noam
47. Amir
'It's protective sorcery that's keeping him asleep.'
'Can you speed things up?'
'Sure.' The healer slapped the wizard.
David DeLaney
48. FJ
Is anyone using the spoiler thread or is there a new one? The last comment is from 4/7
Amir Noam
49. Amir
FJ,
The spoiler thread does seem to be a bit dormant.
Amir Noam
50. Amir
This has to be one of the best chapter opening sentences ever:

Spindle's hairshirt had caught fire.



And for some reason I feel like almost every sentence with Picker/Blend/Antsy is quote-worthy :-)

'If boredom was fatal there wouldn't be a soldier alive on this whole world, Blend.'

'The problem's simple: starting with the sergeant writhing around over there, the whole Oponn-cursed squad is insane.'
'Except for you, of course--'
'You kissing my dung-stained boots, lass? Wrong move. I'm crazier than the rest of you.'

M D
51. Abalieno
Read most of the first chapter. Many pieces that slide into place, but mostly stuff that does not remain ambiguous like K'rul from the previous chapter, and that I remembered from my first read.

Had forgotten about the details of characters involved, like the story of the Bridgeburners. I think Fiddler embodies the concept rather well:

Raraku, sir, has burned the bridge of their past.

Bridgeburners, then. What actually Quick Ben intends is not too clear to me, but the idea of the name itself is clarified by Fiddler earlier in that passage:

The fiddle's mine. Bought it in Malaz City, planned on learning how to play.

...

It's broke. But once the war's done I'll get it fixed, won't I?

It's the question at the end. The sense of false hope, and then regret. The way all possibilities are erased by one current choice, and there's no going back. So it's that last hope in that question that lingers.

This is especially relevant in the Malazan series because it happens stylistically. I've said many times that there are almost no "slice of life" moments in all the books. There are no characters living a normal life, there's no sense of routine. Basically all characters, and not just the Malazans, are uprooted from their past. Usually books follow a completely different patten, a link is made with the reader through slice of life scenes, then changes to bend the story into a plot, after the familiarity between reader and character is already solid.

(while it's a bit too obvious that in not revealing the names and nature of two of the mages that QB absorbed Erikson just wanted to keep his hands free, least the need for new skills suddenly arose... heh)

Wondering if the city where the Protector was holed up was Aren, and if the "slaughter in the streets" refers to the T'lan Imass, since that's a scene that was mentioned a few times in previous books. More puzzle pieces to lock into place.

It's more explicitly implied that the first scholar that merges with Quick Ben is the one who knew about "soul-shifting". And this may as well be an explanation of where the knowledge came from about putting Hairlock in a puppet, in the first book. Not sure if others mentioned this (I've heard of shifting one soul - sending it into a vessel prepared for it.).

I avoid writing much about the scene with Gethol because of spoilers, but it's interesting that he says that "All worlds die". Runs counter to the idea that something like Burn can "renew" indefinitely. Maybe it has a more metaphorical meaning. It's also interesting the mention that there was a maker of the Deck of Dragons. The Crippled God is definitely interesting for the twist on the concept. He gives a chance to those who are victims of injustice. The broken, the lost. He basically predates on legitimate feelings, gives them a voice. There's no balance in the call for "vengeance", but the idea stays powerful because it's... earnest. We've seen that the intent is far from pure (remember the merciless scene with Munug), but he is no worse than other gods and their selfish interests. It's also mentioned that he was chained to Burn's bones, and those bones were seen by Quick Ben when he was saved, so that also should clarify the confused image. I think it was done only to reinforce the idea that Burn is a body representing the world.

Instead I wonder what is that forty Tiste Andii destroyed at one of the chaining. The Crippled God's entire realm. But we knew that the CG blew up in the sky when it was brought down. It was torn from his realm. So what have they done exactly, and why? Maybe he was building up power again when he started healing and so the chaining was done to obliterate whatever power it built again (destroying the warren he recreated). Or maybe he opened a portal back to his realm (but then if the Tiste Andii completely destroyed it, it would mean that the threat ceased)?
Steven Halter
52. shalter
Abalieno:

least the need for new skills suddenly arose

I don't think that is the reason those two names aren't revealed. I think that SE knows very well who those two are and what their capabilities are. It is just that now is not yet the time.
M D
53. Abalieno
Are they specifically reevealed later or it stays up in the air?

I was also wondering if there's something revelatory about Kruppe when Rake called him "cherub". It's used as a form of speech, referring to his physical aspect, but maybe there's something more...
B T
54. amphibian
@ Abalieno, 53,

To answer your questions would be to spoil things. So read ahead and find out...
M D
55. Abalieno
*laughs* Come on! No one pointed out the beginning of Chapter Nine? I laughed when I saw it: Essle Monot. Or maybe no one pointed it out because it's too obvious?

Essle Monot is clearly a play on Ian C. Esslemont ;) Reminds me of a tradition of Lovecraft for playing with names in his letters. Like E'ch-Pi-El (HPL), H. von Liebkraft, or Klarkash-Ton (Clark Ashton Smith).

Especially worth of mention because I think this books has a rather playful attitude toward some Lovecraftian concepts. The staggering scale of the timeline and how Elder Powers can still be re-awakened. Sometimes I even think that Erikson outclassed Lovecraft on Lovecraft's own field...

Greatness! Besides, does that plaza comes into play at some point? Or is mentioned again? From the description it seems that most of Stratem is empty. Basically the same of Jakuruku pre-healing. Stonewielder is set on Korelri, north of Stratem, so this seems to complete at least the "idea" of the geography. I'd say the gaps are mostly filled (beside narrowing down certain contradictions about the relative position of such pieces of land...).

Contrary to Amanda I think Antsy is great and the scene in particular is the best humor up to this point in the novel. Instead of a couple of jokes and call backs we got it going for the whole scene, while, again, not disconnected from the "plot". So we got humor that isn't just auto-referential, but that is used for the exposition of plot. Nothing better since it's great fun to read. Really, those few pages were great and brilliantly written.

Btw, Bill noticed the transition from the CG scene to Quick Ben & Kruppe playing knuckles (or how that game is called). I guess there are a number of links. Not just "tossing bones", but also the games of the gods and the games of the mortals. In this case transposed even literally since it seems "something" is affecting Kruppe's luck. The "cosmic sympathy" is a great way to frame it, but it leaves me wondering what is going on exactly (while understanding that Erikson blatantly plays with the fact that it's "tabu", it's a smokescreen that hides, probably nothing, it IS the smokescreen).

Which reminds me what Erikson wrote recently in an interview about Tavore's motivations being hidden. Making a parallel with real-history Alexander. What I think here is that I particularly love misdirection, mystery and defiance. Yet it's always dangerous ground to tread. I wonder what Erikson truly thinks about this.

In the case of Tavore (not relating to anything specific since I don't even know the story) the trick works (about never revealing clearly specific intentions and motivations, keeping the character in misty speculation and wonder, as for Alexander), I was saying, the trick works as long you give not one, but a number of possibilities. You won't know exactly what's the specific one, but you would have a number of plausible possibilities that justify what happens. You don't have that final revelation, but you also have a feel that the story was consistent and well grounded.

The point in the end is that in "real" history we know that there are causes, maybe a complexity too intricate to grasp and describe, but historians continue to look and speculate because THEY KNOW that history, I'd say, is "virtuous". It went in a certain way and is motivated (by whims or elaborate reasons, but still motivated). In the case of fiction it's the *writer* who has to establish and work toward that sense of plausibility and consistence.

So in the ends it amounts to the reader's hope that Erikson, as a writer, KNOWS. That there is answer to something that has been kept hidden, intentionally.

The series is in a dangerous position, as I said, because the deeper you question it, the more it gets uncertain (as someone said in one of the last chapters: the more you know, the more vague the answers). I'm left wondering if those theodicy kind of questions, like Kruppe and Quick Ben true origin and explanations, or who comes before between K'rul, Burn, Mother Dark and the Azath, if all these kind of questions have a good and plausible explanation at least in Erikson's own mind and control ;)

I mean, what is sleight of hand, and what is cheating? Is Erikson cheating us (like moving continents around, fill the gaps in space, rearrange the timeline, keeping two of QB souls hidden maybe to fill them up later)? Is it cosmic sympathy?

That's why I could really sympathize there with Quick Ben, trying to figure out Kruppe. As if: are you really real or someone is messing with *me*? ;)

In another recent interview Erikson said that Kruppe is the way he is. A tautology! But it maybe means "metaphor made real". He put a tautology in the book as a character. I am sure it's something he could dare doing (same with the eel thing, being slippery) ;)
B T
56. amphibian
The continents have stayed the same since the genesis of the series. The timeline has been somewhat consistent - although with the introduction of new characters and events, improvisation of new ideas and old characters and interweaving them all into the story in different ways, things got jumbled a little bit.

The timeline isn't broken, but it was bent in a couple of ways. Forgive Erikson those slight "square peg in round hole" moments. D'rek on the Malazan boards has managed to make a timeline that is pretty damn good about explaining where everything is and it all fits together well. Be warned that it's spoilerized until the latest book.
M D
57. Abalieno
I didn't want to reenter that kind of discussion.

What I meant was solely about those parts of the puzzle whose solution is kept hidden through the series. I'm wondering if Erikson himself has the solution, or is playing with the rules.

Kruppe is already a "meta" character, and playing with the rules wouldn't even be a problem since he plays already outside them. It's purely daring, and Erikson, I'm sure, has no problem with that.

I'm not sure instead about going deep in motivations and way back to the origin of fundamental powers. The problem, contrary to Kruppe, is that we've been given some pieces of those puzzles, so also a natural desire to see through it all. Those pieces aren't enough to solve that puzzle and the question about whether or not a solution already exists is legitimate.

In the Tavore example Erikson said:

It’s all about interpretation, and to that extent I’m no longer part of that conversation. My work is done, as frustrating as that might be. Interpret as you will.

Now I could say: I can't come up with a satisfying interpretation that explains everything I'm given. Erikson can then compare Tavore to Alexander, but the simple difference is that one is a work of fiction and the other not. So while I'm certain an explanation exists, maybe out of my reach, in one case, it's instead normal to have doubts when the work is fictional (and the writer human). So I can wonder: "Has the writer the answer? Has he posed the same questions I have to himself?"

Sometimes I doubt. But I'm also never *certain* that Erikson has made a mistake or has not thought thoroughly something that is already insanely complex. He has demonstrated both that he can keep an amazing control of the disparate parts, as for leaving some of them deliberately uncertain. Maybe he has followed his instincts without giving it all a rational explanation.

LOST is also an example of writers cheating to an extent and not having the "solution" themselves, deep down.

But my previous post was also a sort of "meta" thing, in the sense that I sympathized more than criticized. Taking that scene in the book (Kruppe cheating, QB having doubts) as the context of what I was doing here.

The examples I used as "cheating" are all factual.

"moving continents around" - There are at least an handful of minor inconsistencies proven. One of which pointed out already in this book.
"fill the gaps in space" - This was me quoting an interview again. Gaps in the timeline as in continents so that you don't run out of space to "reinvent". It's not a "flaw".
"rearrange the timeline" - Mistakes happen when you need to link parts that do not match up. All writers mess with their timelines. This can be done, obviously, without the reader noticing it.
"keeping two of QB souls hidden maybe to fill them up later" - Like the gaps in space and time.

The point of these examples is not to use them to criticize Erikson. I was simply listing "legit tools" that are available to ALL WRITERS. Then wondering if those questions I was examining were affected by those "tools" or not.

As I said, the questions and doubts are legitimate.

Take again the priest of flies in the Prologue of DG. I asked Erikson what was the specific message Hood wanted to show Heboric. Erikson said that he wanted to keep it ambiguous and suggest a number of possibilities. Then leave it to interpretation. And I replied that the problem for me was that some of those possibilities contradicted each other, and between them I couldn't find one that could entirely explain the scene.

Now in this reread we "discover" that Fener's power is waning. It's not something shown in DG, but it's been talked about here. Hence all my questions in the previous chapters about what is that caused this waning of power (again something without a definite answer).

Because, if Fener's power is waning, and this weakness is not directly caused by Heboric calling down his god, then it makes sense that Hood, at the time of DG's prologue, KNEW that Fener was ALREADY on the edge of his realm.

So it suddenly MAKES SENSE that Hood sent the message at that point (even more so now that we see him messing again with some of his followers, Hood is directly assailing Fener's power).

See how everything is connected? The problem is how deeply you can backtrack, and how everything has been defined consistently deep down.

That's why I have this stack of questions, because motivations hide behind other motivations. Answers to questions bring up more questions that need an answer. Everyone in this book thinks and says that Fener is a vulnerable power. But we don't have a clear insight on the ORIGIN of this vulnerability. Only some vague guesses. So, everything builds on this foundation.

Someone in the previous chapter said that Fener's power is waning because the cult has been dropped, so weaking the power of the god. But this obviously leads to another question: who is that made the choice of dropping the cult of Fener? Were other gods involved and playing behind the scenes? Who made the first move, and why?

If you look at the big picture this SCREAMS to be answered. Hood at the prologue of DG, all that happened to Heboric, and now the Crippled God plans, and all that K'rul is doing, manipulating Toc and other characters... all is directly or indirectly linked to the weakening of Fener.

In GotM I don't remember anything specific about Fener, in DG we only see some consequences, and in MoI the waning has been taken for granted. After MoI Fener's cult has practically fallen.

So we miss that origin that put all this into movement.

Thematically Hood is going strong because of all the death due to the events. So one would expect that in a time of war also Fener would go strong. Instead he's the first to fall, why?
Iris Creemers
58. SamarDev
@ 55 Abalieno re Esslee Monot (the dubious)
lol, that reference. And it's about Stratem as well. Nice catch!
Sydo Zandstra
59. Fiddler
@Abalieno:

I see your need for answers, but in some cases it's really hard to give them without spoiling things, even up to the last book. So I'll give some general ones, and hope it'll be enough for you for now.

Fener's cult being dropped was heavily influenced by Emperor Kellanved's decision to root it out of his empire, and since the Malazan Empire is/was the biggest conquering force in the world there, that cost Fener souls/prayers and therefore weakened him.

However, since we know Kellanved became Shadowthrone, you might wonder about how much planning was involved here. It just might not be a worldly decision of cutting out religion from your army here, but the first steps in the Big Chess game instead. Especially since later books will show that Shadowthrone, Hood and the Queen of Dreams are working together on some plan.

It's hard to go into details with Fener here, but we haven't seen the last of him yet. IIRC, you have started reading Midnight Tides, so you are familiar with the Lether continent, and the Errant. Fener will show up there, still vulnerable. Fener will also have a role at the end of The Crippled God, which is why we just can't talk about it much without dealing out huge spoilers.

Hood will be going to surprise you in many ways in the later books too. You might guess where that is heading after you have read The Bonehunters. I wouldn't be surprised if you did.

As for Kruppe, Erikson wrote Toll the Hounds as a story told by him, and you see it in the writing style. Some fans didn't like that much. I loved it.


On the Eslee Monot thing, good catch indeed. I totally missed that. Then again, the last time I read Memories of Ice was before I got to read Night of Knives, so Esslemont was more in the background for me back then. :)
B T
60. amphibian
Fiddler, thanks.


I see your need for answers, but in some cases it's really hard to give them without spoiling things, even up to the last book. So I'll give some general ones, and hope it'll be enough for you for now.



That's exactly the situation I'm feeling myself in: trying to give some good answers without sullying the future reading experience of people - not just the question-asker. The decision by Kellanved to purge the Malazan army of Fener was a curious one and it has implications that go so far as to affect Malazans all over the planet. But discussion of such is best left until later books.
M D
61. Abalieno
Yes, and I asked precisely because up to the point I was reading this kind of subplot was left behind and I didn't know if things were simply move forward without more reveals about this specific detail. As I said, up to this point, it's like the major movement is suspended without knowing the original shove, and it's on this second read that I try to pinpoint those details that I missed on the first.

So I'm glad to know that this "hinge" of plot is not left for granted. Shadowthrone backing up Hood makes sense as well.
David DeLaney
62. Jordanes
Amphibian @ 56

Let's not try and defend the timeline - broken broken broken. You just have to ignore it, unfortunately (and, fortunately, the books are so good in many other ways that you can do so). SE once said (around the time that RG came out) that it would be explained by how time in the Nascent works differently, but it never really was. And even without that, there are many many other timeline issues. "Bent" is far too kind a word for it.

You can sort through it, as D'rek has done, but it means changing outright some things - effectively, putting your own elements into someone else's story. Not that even that is necessarily bad, it can be cool to imagine things in your own way. So I'm not saying that such activity is useless - it's certainly not - I'm just saying it's pointless to defend the timeline in any way :)
M D
63. Abalieno
Been busy finishing and writing comments about Bakker's "The Darkness that Comes Before". Finally.

Back to Malazan. Still need to finish this chapter, but close. The beginning of chapter Nine is again what I considered off putting in my first read. The way the narrative "color" switches from drama to something more surreal and baffling. If I've associated in previous scenes the Che'Malle with dramatic tension, here everything goes the other way. It's a bit of turning the tables approach that doesn't help the plausibility of the story. It crosses that particular line of balance.

Now I have a different approach, even if there's still something that makes me feel a certain resistance. The whole Toc storyline in this book is more "over the top" than the rest and playing openly with RPG tropes. Along the way there's interesting dialogue and humor, but it still puts me off balance because it seems to create a contrast with the rest, or working in a counterproductive way toward the more "serious" parts. After all, these encounters seem just winks about the power-level of the characters, that are usually more muddy. As if Erikson is taking common criticism about his books and giving a shove further in that direction (instead of clinging to hardly earned realism).

The discussion about T'lan Imass prepares the path for the Second Gathering, but it's when they arrive to the hamlet that I liked Lady Envy the most. Amanda says she lacks subtlety but I think this aspect is done well. The point is: she needs no subtlety, if not to play her own games.

In the discussions with Toc it seems that she lacks a certain self-awareness, but sometimes she plays more openly with the way Toc perceives her, that is different from how she is. So she's not as clueless as she sometimes appear. What I like in this particular scene (and the way I interpret it) is that she's like a Kruppe within the box (Kruppe blurs the confines of the book, while Lady Envy only those of these scenes). She's above this level of events, as if playing a game "from above", making the rules as she pleases.

The contrast with Toc is obvious because Toc is vulnerable. He knows fear and he is trapped "within the box", meaning that he's within the events, without a real control of them. On the contrary Lady Envy knows no fear. It's like entering an horror movie while knowing you're immortal. What does it become? An amusement park. It's great fun because you're on top, know what will happen and can play with it any way you want. She's out in the world only to be surprised and amused. Curious like a kid.

Hence the teasing to the Seerdomin. Toc is worried, but for her it's always a situation looked from the top down. Which brings back to what I wrote above. She can entirely change the game. In this specific context, she's a walking Deus Ex Machina. But it is fun specifically because it's done so plainly and explicitly.
David DeLaney
64. Jordanes
Abalieno @ 63

I think you're right to a certain extent that Lady Envy represents a Deus Ex Machina because of the seeming impossibility of anything overcoming her.

But, as we see over the course of the rest of the novel, her invulnerability does not wholly extend over the other individuals who make up her party - in other words, she's not employed as the sole reason for why they make it as far as they do despite the overwhelming odds facing them. There is much description of the injuries the rest of them suffer, and so in that sense - by showing the cost inflicted - the plausibility of what they achieve is skewed a little back towards reality.
Steven Halter
65. shalter
Being nigh invulnerable does not a DEM make. It could make a Mary Sue or other literary trope, but not a DEM.
Now, in this particular case Lady Envy is neither a DEM or a Mary Sue. She is a powerful figure who to this point has not encountered anyone of equal caliber in the story. Recall that there are powerful figures ahead.
But, RAFO as we will see more with regard to that.
M D
66. Abalieno
I was not using DEM with a negative connotation. That's why she is "within the box", since she's above current events but within the frame of the overall setting. Kruppe is a step further since he defies the frame itself, not just a context.

But my point was to interpret the whole chunk of story in chapter 9. It's done with a different narrative register that feels like contrasting and working against the rest of the novel. But maybe it's not a lack of balance, but an effect intended to push against those rules (so the use of Lady Envy as something that defies the frame).

I'm interpreting the whole thing for a narrative intent, not just what it means for the plot.

...and I see that I'm not done here and already 3 chapters behind...
M D
67. Abalieno
Finished here and not much to wrap-up.

The choice that Toc makes at the end seems a bit forced. Not just because it's done on a whim when all sort of unpleasant things were being revealed (about who/what he was about to join), but because the character falls too much in the trope of the "unwilling hero" underestimating his power. I'd say it edges the same border as Duiker in DG, where he anticipated doom at every corner while escaping it for most of the book. It's "unbelief" that clashes so much with the amount of stuff coming from the left field that at at some point you'd imagine the characters would start to EXPECT something different.

In this specific case I think that Toc couldn't be safer in the Malazan world. In spite of the the veil surrounding Lady Envy, she's still a mostly benign power. Toc also knows that another god (K'rul) is being actively manipulating him, so taking care of him, if you want. One understandably may not like this kind of situation, but it's still a decent compromise when it comes to self-preservation. And then there's also Tool. Not the greatest company in the world, but still far from justifying Toc's escape. He is a bit of a kidnapped prisoner, but the moment to escape doesn't seem a well picked one.

I noticed instead that the "Embrasure" was "felt". And that "it arrives like a fever". So I guess this eases a bit the plausibility of an army of cannibals, or the way a majority can be such a vehicle. There are surely horrible examples in history about what a seething mass of people can do, but as far as I know they are momentous episodes, like a sudden folly that takes the mind when one's sense of self "merges" in a mass and vanishes. While the army here is something that went on for a long time, and so requires that the mass embraced this kind of fate without trying to oppose it. If there's a magic push then it is a bit more plausible.

This is also the moment that I figured out the identity of the "captain" in DG. I expected Amanda or Bill to point this out:

He laughed, not harshly, but with genuine warmth. "Come along, Envy. I'll bore you with a detailed recounting of my youth - it'll pass the time. I was born on a ship, you know, and it was more than a few days before Toc the Elder stepped forward to acknowledge his fatherhood - my mother was Captain Cartheron Crust's sister, you see, and Crust had a temper..."

A nice tidbit. I remembered that the captain's name in DG started with a "C", so went back to check that book and it was indeed the same character :) It also sheds some light on the family ties and how these people were related.

Also first mention of Genostel and I'm wondering if and how they were related to the Barghast. From previous revelations we know that the Barghast also arrived from the sea, then for some reason refused to travel again. The end of chapter 8 revealed that the Barghast were originally Imass, that couldn't join the ritual just because they were too far away. Yet, how can this make sense? The scene of the prologue showed Imass, on Genabackis, shortly before the ritual. So were at this moment "future" Barghast away from Genabackis? And then came back to settle?

About the population of the Pannion domin Toc says:

by all accounts the Pannions were once hill peoples. Herders. Barbaric. Rivals of the Daru and Gadrobi tribes.

These "hill people" may be what we know as these original Barghast, so conquering the Genostel people who arrived here, even before.

I'm also wondering if Barghast stagnation is a product of the ritual. Talamandas says they became isolationist, but this also comes a page before Lady Envy starts wondering about T'lan deities. Maybe there's a bit of a leap to make, but we're told of Barghast stagnation, then that they descended from Imass, and then Lady Envy muses that Imass gods and faiths have become "ashes". Going back, Talamandas explains that the Barghast stagnation depended on the fact that Barghast ancestors "are prevented from giving true guidance". The same was explained by Bauchelain (with the difference that he didn't ask kindly):

Simply an eternal ... stagnation. The belief system, with all its ancestor worship, is anathema to progress, or so I have concluded given the evidence.

The missing link is the original motivation, with or without intent. Talamandas says that the way these ancestors are trapped prevents them from developing powers, becoming gods and then provide that "guidance". So why Barghast decided to trap their ancestors that way? Is this related to the fact that their original gods became ash with the ritual? That they suffered in some way repercussions?

Ah, and a little bit of foreshadowing:

"We stand on their land, Captain. The soul beneath us is the blood of their ancestors. Blood whispers. The Moranth hear."
"Surprised you can hear anything inside that helm of yours," Paran muttered, tired and irritated.


The Moranth hear :)

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