Oct 15 2010 3:31pm
The Wheel of Time Re-read: Winter’s Heart, Part 21

Greetlings, WOTlings! Welcome back (finally) to the Wheel of Time Re-read, eh?

Today’s entry covers Chapter 32 of Winter’s Heart, in which we contemplate Risky Business, though with surprisingly little sock-sliding.

“Distinctions”, the Prologue for Towers of Midnight, the upcoming newest release in the series, is now available for download, and a preview of Chapter 1, “Apples First”, is available here. A special preview of Chapter 8, “The Seven Striped Lass”, can be found here. If you would like to read my completely spoiler-free advance review of Towers of Midnight, you can find it here.

Please refrain from posting spoilers for the Prologue, Chapter 1 or Chapter 8 in the posts for the Re-read, in order to protect those who have not yet read them, or do not intend to before the release of the entire book. Spoiler discussion is going on here, in a special post just for discussion of preview material; please keep all spoilers there. Thanks.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to all of the above plus links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

Also, scheduling note: Due to various circumstances, not the least of which being that I need to come up with a suitably stupendous (or lengthy, at least) spoilery review of ToM Real Soon Now, I have made an executive decision to finish off Winter’s Heart by the end of the month, and then we will be going on hiatus again for the release of the new book. But probably not for as long as I did when TGS came out; I’ll have more specifics on that later.

However, for the nonce you can expect the one-post-a-week scheduling to continue for the rest of October, which is to say there are two more posts after this one to go to finish off WH. So expect the next one next Friday.

Okay, so there’s all that. And now, a post!

Chapter 32: A Portion of Wisdom

What Happens
Rand shows a serving man in a large inn his drawings; the man is not certain, but thinks that one of the men in them is staying at the inn. Rand orders wine and goes to sit at a corner table, hearing snatches of talk from the patrons, including rumors of plague in Far Madding (triggered by a black and bloated corpse found in the streets), and that the Stone of Tear is under siege. The latter is a new one on Rand, but he thinks that Rafela and Merana should be able to handle whatever is going on there. Two men come in while he waits, but neither are Torval, and Rand thinks of how Min, Nynaeve and Alivia have gotten sick of canvassing for the Asha’man, and believe Kisman and the others fled after Rand killed Rochaid; the women are outside the city today, and Rand can tell Min is very excited about something. Lews Therin thinks the women are right, because no one sane would stay where there is no Source, and wants to know why he has a madman in his head. Rand mutes him, and thinks that he can handle not touching the Source in order to kill the renegades.

That is not the reason! Lews Therin shouted, forcing past Rand’s efforts to shut him up. You are afraid! If the sickness takes you while you are trying to use the access ter’angreal, it could kill you, or worse! It could kill us all! he moaned.

Wine slopped over Rand’s wrist, soaking his coatsleeve, and he loosened his grip on the winecup. […] He was not afraid! He refused to let fear touch him. Light, he had to die, eventually. He had accepted that.

They tried to kill me, and I want them dead for it, he thought. If it takes a little time, well, maybe the sickness will pass by then. Burn you, I have to live until the Last Battle. In his head, Lews Therin laughed more wildly than before.

Rand leaves the inn, and runs into Verin; he asks if Cadsuane sent her, trying not to sound hopeful, and Verin answers that Cadsuane would never do that, and adds that Cadsuane is out riding with “the girls”. She natters a bit about Alivia’s potential until Rand asks her for news; she tells him the Seanchan have crossed the border into Illian, though they have not yet reached the city. Rand is very upset by this, thinking all that slaughter in his campaign against them had been for nothing; Lews Therin disagrees that battles change nothing, but adds that the problem is you don’t know what they change until it is too late. Rand asks Verin if Cadsuane would talk to him about something other than his bad manners if he went to see her. Verin replies that Cadsuane is very much “a traditionalist,” though she’s never actually heard her call a man “uppity,” but thinks she will listen to Rand if Rand can mitigate the bad impression he initially made on her.

“Few sisters are impressed by titles or crowns, Rand, and Cadsuane less than any other I know. She cares much more about whether or not people are fools. If you can show her you aren’t a fool, she will listen.”

“Then tell her… ” He drew a deep breath. Light, he wanted to strangle Kisman and Dashiva and all of them with his bare hands! “Tell her I’ll be leaving Far Madding tomorrow, and I hope she will come with me, as my advisor.” Lews Therin sighed with relief at the first part of that; if he had been more than a voice, Rand would have said he stiffened at the second part.

He adds, with a bit of difficulty, that he apologizes for his behavior in Cairhien and promises to watch his manners in future. Verin asks if his leaving means he’s found whatever he was looking for in Far Madding, but Rand dodges the question; Verin tells him where to find Cadsuane, and adds that he could hardly do better for an advisor. She leaves, and Lews Therin murmurs that “that woman” frightens him; Rand allows only that Cadsuane makes him “wary.” Rand meets up with Lan back at their inn, and explains his decision to leave, saying he’d thought he could afford to take the time to deal with the renegades, but realizes he cannot.

“I thought I’d be done with them by now, but events are already marching ahead of what I expected. Just the events I know about. Light, what’s happening that I don’t know about because I haven’t heard some merchant nattering about it over his wine?”

“You can never know everything,” Lan said quietly, “and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.”

Rand asks Lan what Nynaeve and the others are doing with Cadsuane; Lan tells him they asked Cadsuane to teach them, because Nynaeve thought it would help Rand to catch Cadsuane’s interest. Lan informs Rand coldly that he’d better appreciate the sacrifice his wife made in doing this, considering how Cadsuane treats her like one of the Accepted. Rand mutters that that’s how Cadsuane treats everyone, and tries to figure out how to deal with her. Nynaeve, Min and Alivia enter the common room, and Rand asks casually how their ride with Cadsuane went. Nynaeve glares at Lan, but Rand tells her Verin told him, and also apologizes for whatever she went through; he adds that he has asked Cadsuane to be his advisor, and is less than pleased at the admonishing approval he receives from them (though Nynaeve is less enthused than the other two). Nynaeve is excited, though, because Cadsuane has shown her what two of her ter’angreal do: one of her rings can detect saidar and saidin being woven up to three miles away, and her belt is a Well, which can hold a small reservoir of saidar. She demonstrates the latter by brushing his face with Air. Nynaeve thinks Cadsuane knew them because her hair ornaments do similar things, which thrills Rand not at all, to know Cadsuane can channel in Far Madding. The innkeeper interrupts with a letter for Rand, which she hands to Min, along with the (to her) highly suspicious news that a woman was asking after him. Rand says it was Verin, impatient for the woman to be gone; the innkeeper admonishes Min that she should keep a close eye on such a pretty husband. Min is highly amused by this, and opens the letter herself, “as if she were a native of this mad city.” Rand is warned by the bond and snatches the letter just before she goes to hurl it in the fire.

“Don’t be a fool,” she said, catching his wrist. She stared up at him, her large dark eyes deadly serious. All that came to him through the bond was a grim intensity. “Please don’t be a fool.”

“I promised Verin I’d try not,” he said, but Min did not smile.

He smoothed out the page on his chest. The writing was in a spidery hand he did not recognize, and there was no signature.

I know who you are, and I wish you well, but I also wish you gone from Far Madding. The Dragon Reborn leaves death and destruction where he steps. I now know why you are here, too. You killed Rochaid, and Kisman also is dead. Torval and Gedwyn have taken the top floor above a bootmaker named Zeram on Blue Carp Street, just above the Illian Gate. Kill them and go, and leave Far Madding in peace.

It’s got to be worrisome when the crazy dude in your head is the one making more sense. Mmm… although, Rand is sort of also making sense, too, at least in the sense that denial and revenge aren’t actually crazy excuses, just kind of lame ones. Lews Therin continually demanding to know why he has a madman in his head, nevertheless, is both kinds of funny—funny ha ha and funny ouch.

Lan’s words about a portion of wisdom—well, not to get all surfer dude on you, but that’s, like, way deep, man.

Seriously, though, this is a thing which has been observed and commented on throughout history. The temptation to stay put and not go forward because you don’t know whether it’s all going to work out in the end is, in my opinion, one of the single largest factors that hold people back from going for what they want in life. It’s kind of a “duh” statement, maybe, but taking risks is scary. And no one ever achieved anything great without taking some kind of risk to do it.

You could have a debate, of course, over whether the risk Rand is contemplating is not a tad over the top. I mean, there’s taking a risk that something will blow up in your face, and there’s taking a risk that THE WORLD will blow up in your face. Taking the latter chance might be considered just a weensy bit irresponsible, you know?

But then again, the risk is commensurate with the possible result. The taint on saidin shattered the world, pretty much literally; it’s only fitting that removing it should hazard the same consequences.

It helps, of course, that all things being equal we can be pretty sure Jordan wouldn’t have had Our Hero end in that way, but that’s the type of meta observation it’s better to attempt to ignore if you’re going to properly enjoy narrative tension, so, yeah.

The other part of the risk Rand is taking, of course, is of a different kind: having the courage to not achieve a goal—to recognize that failure is actually the better option. It was a very mature decision for him to make, actually. Until Fain went and screwed it all up, natch. I hate him a really lot, you guys. Stop standing in the way of Rand’s Emotional Embiggening, dude!

…And stop trying to murder him, too, that would also be great.

L’anyway. Possible gaffe in this chapter, in that Nynaeve demonstrates her Well to Rand by brushing his face with Air, and yet guards do not storm the inn ten minutes later. I suppose the implication is that a tiny enough amount of saidar would get under the radar (literally)?

And as for Verin’s conversation with Rand: NOOOO, DON’T—crap. I am with Lews Therin on this one. Rand making Cadsuane his advisor: does it prove he’s gullible, insane, or just insanely brave? I think the answer is Yes. Sheesh.

Also, wow. I… really did not remember that Verin actually used the word uppity here. For those of you who may not be aware of this, “uppity” is a serious trigger word, in America at least, when it comes to bigotry, both in a racist and sexist context (Google it and look at the first ten hits if you don’t believe me), and there is no way that a man raised in the American South, as Jordan was, would not have known that. Verin’s implication that this was a typical derogatory term applied to men in Far Madding, therefore, is basically Jordan’s way of indicating in no uncertain terms that they are, collectively, a bunch of straight-up bigots. You know, if the revelation later in the chapter that it was typical for wives to open their husbands’ mail wasn’t indication enough (because are you kidding me with this crap, seriously), but the “uppity” thing really made me blink.

I remain uncertain whether this is intended to excuse Cadsuane’s behavior toward Rand, or an attempt to make us impressed that she’s as “non-traditional” as she is considering her upbringing, or what. But this combined with her frequent use of the appellation “boy,” which previously I had tried to ignore… um, yikes.

To be fair, though, she later refers to Nynaeve as “girl,” so I don’t think the “boy” thing was intended to be quite as… pointed a reference as “uppity,” but, well. I am just rather… befuddled, shall we say, at being asked to reconcile blatantly prejudiced attitudes with a character I am supposed to be rooting for. I’m trying, because I recognize that it could be considered hypocritical of me not to, considering what I’ve said in the past about accepting other gray moral areas in various Lightside characters, but this one is… well, let’s just say this is a gray area that’s particularly hard for me personally to stomach in a character I’m (evidently) meant to like.

Either way, though, it’s certainly a risk to take as an author, to ask the reader to do so. Hmm.

And on that, Like, Way Deep Thought, Man, I leave you. Time of your life, huh kid? *air guitar* See you next week!

Chin Bawambi
1. bawambi

[You know my first comment rule. Consider yourself warned and don't do it again. - Torie/Mod]
2. Freelancer
And thus doth the twitching subside.

Thank you Leigh, for that. Now if only the Risky Business reference hadn't been consummated in the jump link...::sigh::

Sometimes, you really gotta just say no.
Kerwin Miller
3. tamyrlink
I don't care what anyone says....I still think that when Lews Therin said "that woman frightens me" he was in part talking about Verin also. (or maybe considering her awesomeness later, I want him to be talking about her) (but I really thought that from the beginning). I always thought it was a hint at something about Verin's character...
Matthew Smith
4. blocksmith

Thank you on this windy rainy Friday in the Northeast...we was jonesing for a re-read.

Rand's conversation with Verin and LT's response (was he refering to Cads or Verin?) takes on totally different overtones with the reveal from TGS. Sneaky Verin Lives (for now).
5. rmrpbutt
Sigh...only 1 chapter...but it's better than no chapters...Leigh we need you back here regular! Life is empty of joy and happiness without your twice weekly re-reads!!!!!!!
6. boquaz
Cadsuanne in the mold of a runaway slave (male channeler) bounty hunter. Interesting take. I'm inclined to agree, but for the sake of argument...

Is it the dehumanization of men in general which drives Cads to such offesive behavior, or dehumanization of Rand in particular? Could Verin be planting doubt in Rand's (and the reader's) mind here? Look carefully at what she said. Sneaky Verin is using a trigger word here to manipulate Rand into behaving a certain way, and seeing Cads in a certain way. Rand will think Cads is a pain because of her personal prejudices and background. Perhaps that will cover the general AS tendancy to think the Dragon is a tool, to be stuffed in a box and brought out when needed. Verin works very hard throughout the series to get Rand to trust the AS, and may not realize yet that the only way to do that is to get the AS to see Rand differently.
Noneo Yourbusiness
7. Longtimefan
Rand leaves the inn, and runs into Verin; he asks if Cadsuane sent her, trying not to sound hopeful, and Verin answers "Moiraine sent me and I have been trying to follow you for two years now. Geez, get a clue."

Which, of course were all lies since Verin was not so oath bound as many had believed her to be. :)

It is so interesting to re visit all the Verin conversations and wonder when she is saying the truth because it furthers her goals and when she is lying because it furthers her goals.

Much like the licks required to attain the center of a lollipop, the world will never know. Stupid portions of wisdom and the knowing of not knowing.

Hooray for the return of the re-read and I hope the time off was relaxing. Looking forward to the finish of Winters Heart and the great big and most fantabulous spoileriffic review of The Towers of Midnight! Thanks Leigh for getting your gumption shoes on and stomping around the internets so many years ago with the WOT FAQ and associated associations so we can have the joy of your insight as this series continues in the hearts and minds and internets of us all.
8. Freelancer
It takes a bit of a mental u-turn to make that thought apply to Verin. Rand understands that LTT is referring to Cadsuane, by reflecting it with his own emotion being "Wary". He knows that Verin plays the game deeply, and he knows that she had plans she'll never discuss with him, but Verin makes him neither afraid nor wary. It has to be Cadsuane.

Lan’s words about a portion of wisdom—well, not to get all surfer dude on you, but that’s, like, way deep, totally gnarly, man.


I don't quite agree that Rand's analysis about deciding to leave is because he has maturely chosen to accept that failure is the better option. He just doesn't believe he can waste any more time hunting for them. His itinerary is forcing him to adjust his priorities.
Also, you have little trouble reconciling the blatantly prejudiced attitudes which are ALWAYS expressed by Nynaeve, why not Cadsuane? Which of them has said that men couldn't button their shirts without a woman to help them? And said it of two men who had saved her from capture twice and other harm twice more.

Just saying...

LTF @7

Thomas Keith
9. insectoid
Great Galaxies, a new post! Thanks Leigh. :)

Hmm, once-a-week... that's alright. We won't break anything, I swears.

On the chapter:

Lan does deep thinking!

"That woman frightens me": I wonder if LTT means Cadsuane, or Verin? (It seems tamyrlink agrees with me.) But perhaps I'm just reading too far into it.

"Uppity": ::blink:: Hmm... hadn't though about that. Time to go do some deep thinking.

bawambi @1: ::rolls eyes::

10. AndrewB

Hope you had a nice vacation. I do not have anything to say about this chapter or your comments thereto.

Hmm. Two more posts. The next to posts will contain a good number of chapters to review and analyze. Good for us (as there will be much to desicuss/debate). Bad for Leigh, since she will have to be a busy bee to finish. (This is on top of doing a spoiler review for ToM).

Well that is why you make the big bucks. What is that? You do not get paid. Well then, better you having to summarize those chapters than me.

I like my roll as Wednesday/Saturday morning quarterback just fine, thank you.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Brandon Daggerhart
11. BDaggerhart
Nice. I love Lan's quote, which is very Socratic:

"One thing only I know, and that is that I know nothing."

Go Sorcralan.

Also, almost done w/ Far Madding to the purpose of the entire book (though, I do enjoy the scene coming up between Lan and Rand as one of the most poignant in the entire series).
john mullen
12. johntheirishmongol
I still don't see the point in having Cads as a character, unless it's just to piss Rand off a lot. Like an alchohalic having to reach the bottom before giving up booze, it isn't necessarily true. And to me Alivia isn't all that much of a character, almost everything we get from her is secondhand from other characters, but she is going to have a big role somehow in the final battle..again an expanded character where we really didn't need one. While I love the books, someone at some point should have stopped RJ and said no more characters.
13. TehBane
What is it with people destroying wine cups whenever they get emotional? Seriously.
Ben Frey
14. BenPatient
To be honest, I grew up and have always lived in the South, and I was completely unaware of the origins of the word "uppity" or any of it's original context until you pointed it out.

We just called rich, snobbish white kids "uppity" here. I've never even heard it in a different context, so it is completely possible that the actual symbolism that's implied by the term was accidental, although I'd imagine Jordan was from an era where my concept of that word hadn't yet replaced the original intent. There are lots of words like this. A generation or two removed, and the people using the word don't even slightly consider it to mean what it used to mean. When I say something is "retarded," like "That coach is retarded for taking Bobby out of the game!" I am not in any way talking about mentally handicapped people, and in that case, I'm even aware of what I'm saying, and it still doesn't "register." Same thing with "that's stupid" or "that's dumb" or "that's gay" or "that's idiotic."

At one point or another, all of those things were dirty names for specific people. When a 12-year-old kid says them in 2010, they don't mean it as a slight to gays or dumbs or retards or stupids, they have completely separated the word from its original meaning. I don't really know how I feel about this, but I know that as I've grown up and thought about those words, and thus become more aware of what they "mean," I use them less often.

But at some point, you have to leave PC behind and just say what you mean in a way that most people will be able to understand it. What do you call the coach that takes the guy out of the game if you can't call him stupid or retarded or dumb or ignorant or idiotic or lame or any of the other inevitably-loaded words that people use to describe someone they disagree with. I mean..."That's lame" is offensive, if you take it back to the origins of the word. "That umpire is blind!" "Are you crazy?"

you see what I mean?

"I emotionally disagree with the choice made by the team coach with regards to the substitution of Bobby." just isn't something people are going to say.
Brian Vrolyk
15. vyskol
I don't think we're necessarily supposed to like Cadsuane.

I have a hard time believing that Jordon missed the mark by that much. :P
Tricia Irish
16. Tektonica
I'm with Tamrylink@3 and Insectoid, in that LTT meant he was wary of Verin, and Rand was wary of Cads. In fact, I think both voices were wary of both of the AS! Rand doesn't trust any of them.

It is really interesting to read the Verin POVs now with our new insight. And it's also interesting to read the Rand/LTT dialogues knowing they were always one and the same. Rand arguing with himself and his fears, is my take on it.

“You can never know everything,” Lan said quietly, “and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.”

A great quote. One we should all keep in mind as we postulate on the last two books and make predictions! Love the bit about courage.
Max Espensen
17. Andvari
Heh, the "uppity" thing is like the reverse of the "golliwog" we had a few weeks back; in the UK I wouldn't say uppity had particular connotations, but now you mention it I remember hearing it does so in the US. And obviously, writing as a USian, RJ would know the prevocative nature of that word. IT's an interesting comparison to draw, that's why we come back to these re-reads there's usually something new that I hadn't considered.

I've said (perhaps not here, actually) it before, one of the reasons I love WoT is because of the complex characters in it and the fact that the "good guys" are not all perfect, likeable characters. For that reason, I always like reading Cadsuane, even if I know I wouldn't get on with her personally.

But I suppose Rand sees no choice other than to make her his advisor on the back of Min's viewing. Perhaps he's all about the better the devil you know school of antagonistic old harridans.

The whole thing about fools is interesting with Cadsuane being (in her mind at least) of extremely high intelligence and also until recently the most Powerful and got me down a thought train which basically resulted in: for Power-wielding individuals are Power and intellect in positive correlation? You never meet a stupid Aes Sedai, and yet statistically they can't all be intelligent, I mean they get educated in the Tower but as numerous aristocrats in public schools could show you, getting the best education in the world wouldn't make you fundamentally more intelligent. The Supergirls should therefore be the most intelligent and the whole thing about Nynaeve being able to pick up weaves after one showing seems to bear that out, as that is something related to intelligence rather than wisdom (to go all AD&D on ya). I want to see a really stupid Aes Sedai though. It'd be amusing.
Rob Munnelly
18. RobMRobM
No offense to all, but I really dislike these Far Madding chapters. Something about them just doesn't appeal. Bring on the Cleansing, ASAP.
Karen Fox
19. thepupxpert
I also don't have too much to add re Winter's Heart either but I am surprised I hit in at below No. 20. Just got finished with Way of Kings and I really really liked it. A little slow in the beginning and adjusting to yet another new universe and another new cast of characters but by the end it was rockin'!
Daniel Hanley
20. Kythorian
"You never meet a stupid Aes Sedai" ??? I don't even know what to think of that. The vast majority of the Aes Sedai we have met have been at least somewhat stupid in my opinion. Now there is a correlation between power and speed at which you can pick up new weaves, but that doesn't really have much to do with intellect. Thats just part of the ability(or thats how it is presented, anyway). But we constantly see plenty of stupid decisions from Elaida and lots of others.

Unless you are asking about actually mentally retarded Aes Sedai...but a mentally retarded person wouldn't become an Aes Sedai...they would either burn themselves out or kill themselves, or they would simply lack the other qualities needed to become an Aes Sedai. For that matter, the Accepted test would kill any really stupid women. Anyone who couldn't remember that they should enter the rings (or at least couldn't work out what that really meant) would just stay in that world, and not ever return. My guess is that the Aes Sedai wouldn't allow any really stupid people to get that far though. They don't want a mentally retarded person weilding Saidar. Its dangerous, and probably bad press.
Chin Bawambi
21. bawambi
@ BenPatient
I guess you'd have to say "He pulled a Wannstedt" (Kotite or Marinelli or Isiah Thomas - insert your favorite bad coach)
@ insectoid
Was that for my self trumpeting or my beloved Buckeyes?

Seriously though thanks as always Leigh and hope you had a great vacation ... I sometimes think that the characters of Nyn and Cads were written as comic relief on multiple levels by RJ.
Not just the irony of their pot kettle statements but combined with the gender flipping that RJ does so well with both they can be the proverbial burr under the readers skin.
Julian Augustus
22. Alisonwonderland
BenPatient @14:
To be honest, I grew up and have always lived in the South, and I was completely unaware of the origins of the word "uppity" or any of it's original context until you pointed it out.

You must have led a fairly sheltered life (or had no interest in American history). What Leigh was being too delicate to say explicitly is that in the US South in days past, the word "uppity" was almost invariably followed by either the N word or the W word and, in the case of the former, a lynching or a severe beating.
j p
23. sps49
I aslo grew up in the South (FL, AL, TN), and the only times I ever heard "uppity" was when someone oldish thought a young 'un was giving them lip. And yes, I am aware of the usage from days long past.

Grr, Cadsuane. Maybe she get Rand and the Asha'men angry enough to pierce Shayol Ghul like the Arisian!Lensmen did Eddore.
Daniel Hanley
24. Kythorian
I grew up (and live) in South Carolina...People around here do tend to avoid the word "uppity", because it does have those connotations. Especially racial connotations. So although I have never actually heard someone use the word in that way, I am very aware of how it used to be used. RJ grew up in a time when it was still used that way, so I am certain he was very aware of its connotations(even disregarding the fact that he was a historian), regardless of if some of the people on this these comments were unaware. But it doesn't really surprise me, given SWMNBN's upbringing in a place as sexist as Far Madding. And it does help explain some of her behavior towards Rand. Its hard to tell what is her attempts to manipulate him, and what are genuine feelings that politeness from a man is defined as putting up with whatever a woman feels like.
25. buddhacat
Re: Uppity

These days the accepted term is "socialist."
Matthew Hunter
26. matthew1215
Matthew Hunter
27. matthew1215
@25.... Really, really, let's not go there. I see what you did there, and it's a patently offensive accusation, but this is not the best place to have that discussion. At least gun control debates can be kept reasonably civil, that can of worms you are poking at would be a huge mess.

I don't find this excursion into Far Madding culture to be at all exculpatory of Cadsuane's behavior. I suppose it's nice to have an explanation for her attitude, but I'd rather not have the character, I think.
Elena Vaccaro
28. EarthandIce
Finally close to the end of the loooonnnnnggggg story line in Far Madding. Granted it only was a couple of chapters, but I thought it took forever to get them out of there.

We make assumptions about characters, and then they throw us a surprise, but then Lan has thrown out surprises before. He had a first class education not only in the martial arts, but in other areas as well. He is the Uncrowned King of Malkier after all. Lately he has felt the need to answer most questions with about, oh what, 3 feet of steel? And Aes Sedai forged at that.

BenPatient@ 14: There are people out there who are offended by these terms. Last week there were at least three teen suicides and one attempted suicide linked to being bullied, two of the suicides were of gay teens, and the attempted suicide was of a teenager who is mentally handicapped. All three of the suicides were called gay. The mentally handicapped person was called a retard. Now two of the suicides were at the same school, which does not say much for that school system.

Now I did as Leah suggested, went to Google and looked at the first 10 results. Three were definition pages, only one used the race implication as one of the definitions. All of the others were in the line of social climbing, or status climbing. Two were for a Firefox application, one was a post about John McCain’s language during the last presidential election, one was a blog about Uppity Women and the other three were a blog that is now a tribute to the original author.

Now I had a similar reaction to my use of the phrase ‘peanut gallery’. I was told back in the late 70’s it was a similar negative reference. I just Googled it and came up with :
1. (figurative) people whose criticisms are regarded as irrelevant or insignificant (resembling uneducated people who throw peanuts on the stage to express displeasure with a performance)
2. rearmost or uppermost area in the balcony containing the least expensive seats
Familiarity information: PEANUT GALLERY used as a noun is rare.
In addition, there was a peanut gallery on the Howdy Doody show, which I somehow missed as a child.

Now, what am I supposed to believe?? It is all in our subjective lexicon, or our personal experiences. I am not saying we should be insensitive.... Oh rats, PC can be a pain!
Daniel Hanley
29. Kythorian
To Matthew1215, Oh, I wasn't excusing her behavior just because that was how she was raised(that never serves as an excuse in my mind) I was just saying that it was good to try and understand where the character's motivations come from, and this is clearly a peice of who SWMNBN's character is. It actually makes me like her a bit less, in fact. Though maybe we will see her begin to overcome her personal bias. We can hope so, anyway. Well, either that or see her die. One of the two will happen before the end of the series.
Being from the UK I honestly had no idea the word 'uppity' had so many connotations - to me it's always just meant 'someone with an increadibly high opinion of themselves'.

To put it another way: that the person was acting in a way that made it clear they thought they were superior to those around them, rather than believing themselves better than they had the right to be because of race, age, class, sex etc.

Certainly adds a new slant on the whole Cadsuane, Far Madding experience...
Daniel Goss
32. Beren
Every time that you type the word "Cadsuane," somewhere, a Ta'Veren gets slapped.
Just sayin'.




Cadsuane Cadsuane Cadsuane Cadsuane Cadsuane Cadsuane

Marianne Bohnlein
33. shrewgoddess
Uppity has connotations that meant something in the past, but those connotations have been reduced with the passage of time. Also, as tempting as it is to place our own cultural past on a completely different culture with a completely different past, I just don't think it can be done. Despite connotations, "uppity" had a very specific meaning - someone who is getting above himself. Cadsuane seemed to think that Rand was getting above himself. Was there another word that would have fit better?

I'm certain that RJ knew the connotation behind the
word, but he is still writing about a land, a culture, a people who
wouldn't carry those same prejudices that we do. And part of the fun of reading fantasy novels (at least for me) is to immerse yourself into that world and escape ours.

After all, if you're a US citizen, how much does it hurt when someone calls you a wanker?
Douglas Miller
34. douglas

You really want Rand, Mat, and Perrin to get slapped, don't you?

Or do you know of some other ta'veren currently alive?
Elena Vaccaro
35. EarthandIce
douglass @ 34: I have a sneaking suspicion that Tuon is ta'veren. There is the scene when Beslan is called in to audience to explain why he has stopped holding court. When he gives his Oath to Fourtuona, he asks if she is ta'veren, and she thinks it it superstition. Then when Rand meets with her, she resists his Ta'vereness. Strenght of Will? or ta'veren?

So she is getting slapped right along with Rand, Mat and Perrin. Oh, my!!
Franz Antonio
36. Nazgul86
I've read this book perhaps 3 times already, yet I still don't grasp why Rand had to come to Far Madding. Is it just to kill the 5 men or does it also have to do something in connection with cleansing saidin? If its also the latter, what's the connection?
Daniel Goss
37. Beren
@34 Douglas
Shhhhh -- I'm trying to get Faile another spanking!
Daniel Hanley
38. Kythorian
To Shrewgoddess @ 33, fair enough, except that in this instance, there are definate parallels between our world and that one. While the technical definition of uppity is someone who thinks they are better than they are, the historical definition we are discussing refers to someone being uppity for thinkint that they are as good as you. A sexist man from the 50's might have thought a woman was being uppity for daring to want to work instead of stay home and make dinner for him. For daring to think that she should hold the same job as him and make as much as him, etc. Cadsuane appears to think that Rand is uppity for daring to place himself on the same level as her. Because of course he should be following her every command like a dog. Or a Far Madding man, appaerntly.
Daniel Goss
39. Beren
@36 Nazgul
My understanding is that his reasoning is twofold.

1) Get rid of the five rogue asha'man. Partly for revenge/because it needs to be done, and partly so that they don't attack him during the cleansing.

2) Give himself some time to get over the sickness that he's been experiencing. Obviously, that one didn't work out so well. Come to think of it, neither did the first, really.
Skip Ives
40. Skip
@18. RobMRobM - I agree with you. This is why we don't
summarize these chapters. My synopsis would be: "More Far Madding insanity, Fain Ackbars Rand, though he plans on pulling a Han."
@7. Longtimefan - please never, ever, use the verb "lick" that close to the nouns "Verin" or "Cadsuane".
41. Freelancer
Peanut Gallery has it's origins in the vaudeville theaters of all those decades ago. The cheapest seats, with poor visibility, bad air, and often accessible only from an outside staircase. The only food service available was from tray vendors, offering roasted peanuts and such.

It was not uncommon for people in those unenviable seats to heckle performers who didn't adequately entertain, prompting the rejoinder, "That's enough out of the peanut gallery".

With Howdy Doody, the in-studio audience of kids was seated on bleacher-style benches, and referred to as the Peanut Gallery. Often when they would have some kind of quiz with nifty prizes in the offing, Clarabell the Clown would exclaim, "No kibitzing from the Peanut Gallery".

Topical trivia: The original Clarabell for the Howdy Doody Show was Bob Keeshan, who must have just not liked his own name much, since he managed to bring great TV fame to two names, neither of which was his own. The other?

Captain Kangaroo.
Cameron Tucker
42. Loialson
So close....Yet so far....*reaches*


Towers of Midnight is very soon....

Btw I just realized that the title is coolly coming out near Halloween, and the title is a bit scary.

Diggin that.

YAY Auntie Leigh is back!

what? more waiting?
Aw shucks, oh well....
43. MoJoAS
Long time lurker, 1st time poster.

While reading Leigh's re-cap a thought occured to me. It is assumed that the letter delivered to Rand was from Fain as he has a trap set-up for Rand when he goes to confront the two renegades, but what if it wasn't? When the innkeeper brings the letter, she mentions a woman not a man. What if the letter was from Verin?

There are a number of reasons why Verin would want to pass this information on to Rand. She could be pushing him to wrap things up because the longer she has to stay in the city the more risk there is that the Council will find out who she really is. There is also the possibility that she is concerned about Rand being caught by the Council and shipped to Tar Valon if he stays in Far Madding too long, which almost happens. There are probably other motivations that could be considered here but I can't think of anymore off the top of my head.

Since Rand hadn't told her what he was doing in the city she can't just come straight out and say she knows where Torval and Gedwyn are hiding. So she used her Sneaky Verin (tm) abilities to send him an anonymous letter. The letter itself reads more like it was written by a devious woman rather than an insane man (not that Fain isn't also devious). I may be completely off base on this but I think it is an intriguing possibility.

I am at work right now so do not have access to my books to read the section to see what the exact wording was that the innkeeper used, nor do I have the time to do any digging in the online databases to see if there is any info out there about this. Does anyone know if there is a quote from RJ or Team Jordan that directly states the letter came from Fain? Alternatively, does the actual text in the book indicate that the delivery of the letter and the visit from the 'mystery' woman were separate incidents?
Theresa Gray
44. Terez27
I grew up in MS. Still live here. Yes, the word 'uppity' is at least somewhat associated with racism. I believe the phrase 'uppity N-' appears a few times in Gone With the Wind. The association was probably deliberate on RJ's part - he's mentioned in interview that Far Madding is the only true matriarchal society in Randland.

That being said, I don't understand the attitude that everyone who just so happens to be conditioned in a society with prejudices should automatically be unlikable, especially one like Cadsuane who has shown signs of progressing away from that mentality, and wears her good intentions on her sleeve.

The debate is similar to one we've had here a few times about the Seanchan. RJ set them up as the Evil Empire, and then gave us Seanchan characters who were - surprise, surprise - human, just like everyone else in the series. Likable. Just because we like them doesn't mean we condone the evils of their society. Though of course, we will like Tuon less if she does not snap out of it soon - primarily because the responsibility for those evils now rests on her shoulders.
45. Shadow_Jak
I do trust that everyone realizes the *REAL* reason that Leight brought up the whole "uppity" thing.

It was a quite obvious ploy to try devert the discussion away from the subject of ... ***SPANKING***
46. Shadow_Jak
...She glided away through the rain looking nothing so much as a very stout swan.

Sometimes that woman frightens me, Lewes Therin murmured...

I confess, I though he meant Verin too. Was a little bit of a jolt for me when Rand took him to mean Caddy. Especially on this re-read, with our current knowledge of Verin.

Also, "a very stout swan". Paints quite a vivid picture in mymind. LOL!
Thomas Keith
47. insectoid
Free @41: Good (evening), Captain! ;)

I do remember watching re-runs of Captain Kangaroo when I was young; it wasn't on the air much longer after that. And my parents have told me stories about The Howdy Doody Show, Engineer Bill, Mister Ed, and other shows of that era.

EDIT: Oh, and Sheriff John. My mom thought that should be included.

48. Shadow_Jak
"Oh dear, I'm afraid C*dsuane is very much a traditionalist in some ways, Rand. I've never actually heard her call a man uppity, but..."

That's the direct quote, three dots and all. So she didn't finish the comment. I think it's clear that RJ meant this to be a slight to Rand, in just the same connotation Leigh mentions.

But note: Good old Sneaky Verin...
Keeping to the Oaths (though she didn't have to).
She actualy says just the opposite of want she means him to hear.
Caddy likely said no such thing.
Julian Augustus
49. Alisonwonderland
Terez @44:

That being said, I don't understand the attitude that everyone who just so happens to be conditioned in a society with prejudices should
automatically be unlikable, especially one like Cadsuane who has shown
signs of progressing away from that mentality, and wears her good
intentions on her sleeve

Seriously? You mean, as in "her good intentions are perfectly obvious"? I would say that is a complete misuse of a common phrase. Think about it, if her "good intentions" were so obvious Rand wouldn't suspect her of always acting to manipulate him and wouldn't hate the very ground she walks on.
50. Shadow_Jak
@44 amd @49

Cadsuane who has shown signs of progressing away from that mentality, and wears her good intentions on her sleeve

Seriously? You mean, as in "her good intentions are perfectly obvious"?

OK, so her intentions are not so obvious to Rand, but they are to the reader.I actually like Caddy now, (though it took me a while!)
Bill Reamy
51. BillinHI
Terez @44: I have to agree with Alisonwonderland @49 that Cadsuane's intentions are not at all obvious to everybody all the time. Yes, she did (finally) reveal to Verin that her intention was to get Rand to TG and she would do anything to achieve that. However, the way she goes about getting Rand to become human again is not only wrong, it doesn't seem to be very obvious, maybe not even to her own group of AS. I think her Far Madding prejudices are reinforcing her AS prejudices (or vice versa, whatever) and she appears to me to be very contemptuous of men in general (as all AS are!) and Rand in particular. Even Egwene as recently as the end of TGS is still thinking of Rand as someone who needs to be controlled, or at least guided. Only Min has a clue that Rand needs to be helped, not guided or controlled.

Edit to add: I like Cadsuane's purpose, but I don't like her at all and I really think that was RJ's aim in the way he wrote her character.
Tricia Irish
52. Tektonica

I'm glad someone else knew who Howdy Doody was!
*Aside: I got to meet "The Captain" once when he sat behind me at a Giants game at the Meadowlands. A life highlight!*

Cadsuane's intentions towards Rand are not at all obvious, imho. It took Verin quite awhile to convince herself of Cads being on team Light . Given Cads (and most AS) prejudice against men in general, and channelling men in particular, and her abrupt and confusing interactions with Rand, I certainly don't blame him for not trusting her.


Only Min has a clue that Rand needs to be helped, not guided or controlled.

Agree. This is what scares me about Egwene.
Scientist, Father
53. Silvertip

Whoa. Massive jealousy.

Captain K is no longer in evidence on our dial, unfortunately ... but my kids are both crazy about Mister Rogers in reruns. Whom I understand was every bit as warm and fuzzy a person in RL. So much of a better example than almost anything being made now.

Still. Jealous.

Theresa Gray
54. Terez27
Yes, Cadsuane's intentions are on her sleeve. Go back and read the scene where she appears, again. Rand overreacted to her because Merana freaked out, but the truth is that he was quite rude to her for no good reason, seeing as how she walked in there alone with no protection, and he was surrounded by allies. The way she responded to him was no less than he deserved. The next time Rand met her, he brought his Asha'man with him to intimidate her.

Every action she has ever taken has been to his benefit. Even her smacking him in Tear was to his benefit. He was acting like a child, and therefore she treated him like one. But Rand was planning on cleansing saidin with nothing but Lan for protection against the Forsaken. That's why he went to Far Madding first - so he could kill the renegades and not have to worry about them sneaking up on him while he was doing it. He just decided to ignore the possibility that the Forsaken might show up.

Cadsuane was the one that brought his defenses and organized them. She is the one that saved his ass in Far Madding. She saved his ass in Cairhien, too. She is one of the few people in the series with the courage to stand up to Rand when he is being tyrannical. And he would be dead a few times without her.
April Moore
55. aprildmoore
Hmm.. The things you learn on this reread. The remarks on "uppity" were all news to me and I grew up in Tennessee. Here, at least during the time I've lived, it was usually used to denote a youngster who needed an attitude adjustment or just someone who had an overly high opinion of themselves.

I do think it's likely R.J. understood the connotations - he was both older and wiser than I. But I wouldn't automatically assume that those connotations are widely understood today. Language does change a lot, even in a single generation.
Scientist, Father
56. Silvertip

I actually saw these folks perform in a converted barn in Davis, CA once. Great show. Don't mess with them.

(and no, your Uncle Silver would never rickroll you. Honest).
Heidi Byrd
57. sweetlilflower
@Terez, it pains me to disagree with you, especially after meeting and liking you. It is the first meeting with Rand that actually makes me dislike Cads. Almost every other one of her scenes is either amusing or informative. She claims that she will treat others as they act towards her. However, when she first meets Rand, she walks in and complete bedlam ensues. She then pets one Asha'man, talks over Rand's head to an AS, and is generally rude and unlikeable.
Yes, she does not know what Rand has just gone through, but with her intelligence and experience, I would have expected a much different introduction. I would not begin to guess what her intentions are, at this point, but she begins on the wrong foot and then gets a bit better with exposure. She treated him like he was beneath her notice and unworthy of recognition or placation when she did not have any prior meeting with him. Once she explains that she will treat him like he acts, should Rand have started examining her face and talking about her to others as if she weren't present?

I am not one of the Cads haters, but the first scene is what ruins any chance of me actually respecting or liking her as a character.
Julian Augustus
58. Alisonwonderland
Terez @54:

Yes, Cadsuane's intentions are on her sleeve. Go back and read the scene where she appears, again.

Sorry, but you are still misusing the expression, or you don't really understand what it means. Cadsuane's intentions are not obvious, not in this scene, or well after that. If they were, Verin wouldn't nearly have poisoned her, months after this scene, because she (Verin) was unsure of Cadsuane's motives. Cadsuane eventually tells Rand that whatever she does is for his good, but her subsequent actions are unconvincing to his most important audience, Rand, and he comes to believe that she is all manipulation and nothing else. Don't say her good intentions are perfectly obvious to everyone on first sight (which is what wearing some emotion on your sleeve means); it isn't.
john massey
59. subwoofer
First off- Yay Leigh! Back in the game! One post per week? Well, we'll live- barely- but I suppose it is a decent trade off if it means your next "break" is more abbreviated. But geeze! The next chapters really rock lets get to 'em.

This chapter went in a few directions, but it was good. Secondly, Rand has no extra juju to threaten people with, I hope he gets that people are following him because they like him and respect him, not because he is the great and powerful OZ. Soak that in buddy.

Verin- did somebody call her sneaky? Ummm- yah- can any other word describe her so well? And it is a gimme that LTT was talking about her. Caddy gets some credit, but way too much if we all think that LTT is already thinking past Verin. Verin, as we all discover, is covered in awesome sauce in her own right, LTT is wise, go with it.

Caddy. I see where many people are coming from here. OTOH Caddy really rubbed Rand the wrong way and has not done much since to right that ship. OTOH, it seems to be intentional. I have mixed feelings. Caddy does comment that her methods were to test Rand's metal, and she was impressed. But how should she be? Terez points out that Caddy was a stranger in a strange land and Rand had all the deck stacked in his favor. Didn't Bashere or Ituralde preach attacking when you seem weakest at a place your enemy least expects? Kinda like a Sun Tzu thing... I could see Caddy use that idea.

Another option is to walk into Rand's world, all dignified but "respectful" and take it on faith that Rand will accept her, when he is pushing away all other AS and has serious trust issues with the White Tower in general. Look at what Caddy says when she finds out from Min about the box and what Galina did. She knows what is going through Rand's mind. I think given the time constraints here, she can either bugger around like other AS or separate herself from the herd.

I think we still have to wait and see what Caddy does as her swan song, for Rand and for the asha'man. She knows she is going to die soon. We know Caddy is going to die. Let's see her go out in a blaze of glory, I think she has it in her. This is either going to be Leigh's 2 or 9 on her predictions list. I'm willing to wait and see.

Wow- epic.

Antoni Ivanov
60. tonka
Actually that's one of my favourite scenes. What else should
she have done? He is Dragon Reborn, the savior of the World and she needed some way to test him. By being very nice to him ? They are thousands of people that fawn on Rand.

Sub is right, Cad needed to stand out in some way too. What she did during their first meeting is something that should earn people's respect because it was incredibly brave, she walked in to the most powerful man in the world surrounded by Aes Sedai and Male Channelers already serving him and she treats him like crap.

If that was some other person (like Taim) she wouldn't have survived her first meeting. So what she did takes a lot of courage and it is something she needed to do.

I cannot imagine her doing any thing different if she wants to test Rand to see what he is and in the same time separate herself from the others of his thousands followers and
subordinates some of them High Lords and Aes Sedai.
Theresa Gray
61. Terez27
I believe Cadsuane is probably one of the most straightforward characters in the series. When she walked in on the first scene, bedlam ensued, but certainly not because of anything Cadsuane did. Rand immediatedly shouted at her as if she had come in on the attack - as if she would be stupid enough to do so alone, with him surrounded by guards - and it was only then that she condescended to the Asha'man to show him that she would not be cowed into fear.
Heidi Byrd
62. sweetlilflower
@tonka: Its not that she isn't brave, it is that this is the only scene in the whole series where she is hypocritical. In almost every other instance, she is responding to how Rand or others have acted. In the first meeting, she is acting exactly how Verin portrays her in our current chapter. The quintessential Far Madding woman with an extra dollop of AS pride and entitlement on top. She could have addressed Rand first, showing that she is willing to work with him. She didn't need to be submissive, that would not have worked. But, she should have shown that she was an equal. There is not one other person in all of WoT who is above the DR, and she comes in and acts like her opinion and her desires are the most important thing. If she really wanted to "test him", and still be consistent with her own professed ideals, then she could have answered his original question in a matter-of-fact voice and then proceeded to ask questions of her own.
My point here is that had this meeting gone differently, had Cads held to her professed beliefs, I would champion her all the way. However, since first impressions are lasting...

I will be one of the first to say that she gets a lot of good stuff accomplished. Rand would be dead or worse if not for her planning and preparation during the Cleansing. She tries to be a good advisor, most of the time. She makes him see reason concerning the Aiel, and she is one of the most non-prejudiced AS in the whole series. But, the first meeting between her and Rand is demeaning and, frankly, disappointing to me. Cads could have been the coolest and most awesome AS we have met, but instead she comes across as a bully and a hypocrite solely b/c of this first meeting.

edit to add: the reason I say she should have responded to Rand is that it is not just that bedlam ensues. Right after Cads is announced the following sequence happens.
from ACoS: Chapter 18, As the Plow Breaks the Earth

"A strikingly handsome woman swept in right behind (Riallin), iron-gray hair gathered in a bun atop her head and decorated with dangling gold ornaments, and it seemed everything happened at once.
"I thought you were dead," Annoura gasped, eyes nearly starting out of her head.
Merana darted through the ward, hands outstretched, "No, Cadsuane!" she screamed. "You musn't harm him! You must not!"
She then answers Annoura and chastises Merana. Rand asks who she is and from what Ajah. She does not answer him. After two AS that he somewhat knows have had such an outrageous reaction to this unknown AS, of course Rand is going to be leery of her. It is at this point that she examines Narishma, most thoroughly I might add. Again, Rand asks her what she wants. Her response is, "So you are Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn. I'd have thought even a child like Moiraine could have taught you a few manners." This sentence is the first thing she says directly to Rand. It just gets worse, but I'll leave it to you to pull out your books and read through it again.
So, if you are a reasonably intelligent person, and you are looking to have a productive working realtionship with someone else, what seems to be the logical step to take here?

I would suggest reading the rest of the scene, since it just gets worse.
Roger Powell
63. forkroot
There is a quote from R.J. explicitly stating that none of the other major characters (besides Rand, Perrin, and Mat) are ta'veren. He tossed in the "major" qualifier mostly to have fun with us (per the continuation of the quote.) I think Tuon qualifies as a major character, hence she cannot be ta'veren.

Now, having acknowledged the statement of the Creator, I will admit that Tuon, Egwene, and Nynaeve (and possibly others) have demonstrated some sort of "Pattern-mojo" even if they are not strictly ta'veren. Perhaps we could consider them "ta'veren-linked" so that although they don't warp the pattern the way the boys do, nevertheless what appears to be random chance is the pattern molding their paths, with sometimes startling results.

One good example would be when Moggy tries to balefire Nynaeve in Ebou Dar. Nyn is saved by a fluttering dove that startles Moggy enough that she misses the cabin of the boat where Nynaeve is.
Thomas Keith
64. insectoid
BillinHI @51:

Only Min has a clue that Rand needs to be helped, not guided or controlled.

Maybe Cadsuane will listen to her, now that Rand nearly went off the deep end...

Tek @52: I'm with Silvertip—way jealous! Closest I've come is seeing Fred Rogers, Bill Cosby, and Art Linkletter as co-marshals of the Rose Parade 7 years or so ago. That was pretty cool.

Apologies everyone if my comments seem frivolous; I've nothing better to do at the moment.

::failing to ignore Ben-Hur in background::

Theresa Gray
65. Terez27
forkroot@63 - just to clarify, he said none of the major female characters are ta'veren.
66. birgit
When the innkeeper brings the letter, she mentions a woman not a man. What if the letter was from Verin?

"This was delivered for your husband this morning, Mistress Farshaw," she said, handing Min a letter sealed with an untidy blob of red wax. The innkeeper's pointed chin rose. "And a woman was inquiring after him."

The delivery of the letter and the woman are separate. The style of the letter doesn't really sound like Padan Fain, but it could be written by Mordeth.
Jonathan Levy
67. JonathanLevy
49. Alisonwonderland
Re: Cadsuane's good intentions are worn on her sleeve.

Keep in mind that nobody specified *which* sleeve. Personally, I think they're sewed on to the inside of a sleeve at the bottom of her laundry pile back in Ghealdean, where she was supposedly tending roses.
(End tongue-in-cheek)

62. sweetlilflower
She could have addressed Rand first, showing that she is willing to work with him. She didn't need to be submissive, that would not have worked. But, she should have shown that she was an equal.

I don't pretend to be representing your entire considered opinion of Cadsuane, but I think you've made a significant point here, in pointing out alternative behaviors available to Cadsuane, which she rejected. I would like to add my 2 cents to this, by pointing out a case where she behaved precisely as you described - in forging her alliance with Sorilea.

Cadsuane treated Sorilea as an equal, who might or might not be on her side.
Cadsuane treated Rand as some sort of unknown tool, or potentially dangerous pet, which needs to be prodded and tested a bit to see how it should be handled. Is this hammer heavy enough? Does this cat allow me to pick it up by the scruff of the neck? "There's good mettle in that boy". "If you want to see what he's made of, push him from an unexpected direction".

For some reason, Sorilea was exempted from this treatment.
Maiane Bakroeva
68. Isilel
Jonathan Levy @67:

Don't forget that it was Sorilea who told Cadsuane that Rand would reject stuff offered freely. Hence Cadsuane's subsequent behaviour. Personally, I have no problems with her entrance - she had to intrigue Rand and distinguish herself from the other AS, as well as show from the start that she wouldn't be dominated. It is her subsequent interaction with Rand and others that sticks in my craw. And also that her stature among the AS is based on strength. I mean, really? _That_ is the legend?

And BTW, what's the deal with AS still exhibiting the marks of their cultures of origin centuries after the fact? I mean, they only spend the first 15-18 years of their lives there...

Anyway, I both like and dislike Far Madding interlude.
I like it mostly for Rand's interaction with Lan. I was really miffed when Rand, in his paranoia re: Moiraine suddenly decided that Lan was nothing more than her spy and mouthpiece - despite prior experience to the contrary.
It was also refreshing to have Rand not being super-powered for a bit.

I dislike it because Rand's plan re: chasing Dark Ashaman was abyssmally foolish, (and people criticize Elayne? really?) as well as because it felt like "marking time" and stole the space and build-up from the Cleansing.
IMHO the Cleansing is the only part of books 7-12 that really needed much more on-screen developement. It felt very perfunctary to me. Everything else was too lengthy.

Re: Far Madding - well, after all the many, many patriarchal settings in fantasy, I don't get the fuss. Yes, unpleasant, but less so than many other examples.
Of course, in a society that distrusts men and considers them lesser, allowing them to bear arms and guard that society makes zero sense, but here RJ's preconceptions strike again ;).
Stefan Mitev
69. Bergmaniac
I discovered this reread project about a week ago and since then I've spent an unhealthy amount of time reading it. Now I finally have a chance to comment on a recent update, about time. ;) Too bad it's one of the chapters I don't like much, but that's life, I guess.

Anyway, first I want to thank Leigh for the great job she's done so far. Reading this is quite helpful in preparation for ToM and so funny too.

Back to the current chapter -this is where Rand really started to annoy me. He was behaving like an idiot, walking into obvious traps, risking his life left, right and centre. Didn't he realise that while he's in Far Madding, one anonymous letter from the Darkfriend Asha'man is enough to get him captured by the authorities there? And given that those authorities aren't sympathetic to him at all, this is not good news. Not to mention the possibility of just gathering a band of Darkfriends thugs and killing/capturing him in a conventional battle.

Sure, being there prevents attacks with the Power by the renegade Asha'man, but presents many other risks, which IMO are much bigger in total. And this is even before he decided to walk into the obvious trap after he got the letter. Nynaeve should've told him how well "It's not a trap if you know it's trap" mentality worked for her back in Tear in Book 3.

I much prefer him in TGS even in his darkest moments. Sure, he is ruthless and on the edge of insanity, but at least he is smart and made decisions which make sense from his current viewpoint, even if the cost is really high from an ethical point of view.

Thankfully Cadsuane happened to have the really plot convenient well ter'angreals to save him a few chapters later, otherwise he deservedly was in big trouble for his arrogant idiocy.

I totally agree that the Cleansing needed much more setup. It's by far the most important moment in Book 7-11, maybe in the whole series, yet it got way less setup than many minor events and was actually done in one chapter. It certainly deserved way more screen time than that, especially considering how plotlines with way less significance went on and on for hundreds of pages.

Something poitive for a change - Verin is cool as usual. As for Cadsuane, I dislike her attitude, and I think too often she treated Rand in a counterproductive way, but at least she's competent unlike the vast majority of the other Aes Sedai, who are almost as arrogant and have very little to back this up with. I just wish she could have been competent without being so obnoxious most of the time.
Antoni Ivanov
70. tonka

Btw the "really plot convenient well ter'angreal" was the reason Rand got captured in the first place and then released with its help. I think it was quite brilliant of Jordan.
Max Espensen
71. Andvari
@69 and 70:

I've no doubt that RJ had invented Wells a long time before Winter's Heart but the way he only brought them up at Far Madding is a bit frustrating as people will inevitably talk about them as a kind of deus ex machina which is probably unfair to someone of Jordan's planning. Perhaps he could have had Verin mention them at the stedding in TGH for example?
Antoni Ivanov
72. tonka
@71 Actually it was mentioned or rather used in the first book. The Eye of the World was a well of gigantic size. So yes Jordan had invented this very early in the series.
73. Freelancer
Are we really having the Cadsuane debate again? Well, just you wait until Wetlandernw is back. Have you so quickly forgotten? Even subwoofer, who first applied the title SWMNBN, is now (more) sympathetic to Cadsuane's actions and motives. And yet the hate continues. If there is anyone who hated Cadsuane more than most, it was a gent named Brandon Sanderson. But he has admitted that his opinion of her has undergone a drastic revision.

Her reasons for presenting herself as she did in the first few meetings with Rand were stated by her not long after. Push a man from a direction he does not expect, and you will see what he is made of. She wants to know who/what she is dealing with in this 20-something male channeler. She also wants him to understand that he cannot intimidate her, or successfully push her back in her own way.

Does she make mistakes? Oh please. Show me the character who doesn't. Just remember what she thinks to herself when she sets down Harine for trying to be overbearing:

"I don't care a fig for your Coramoor," Cadsuane continued, her voice still mild. All the figs in the world for the Dragon Reborn, but not one for the Coramoor.

Andvari @71

Why would Verin have anything to say about a saidar well during the visit to Stedding Tsofu? Just so you know, this is ground which has been covered before, and author answers to the question are clear that Verin did NOT channel to delve Trayal, saidar was not involved, and she does not appear to have a well.
Joseph Blaidd
74. SteelBlaidd
An important point to remember about Verin's use of "uppity" is that she is a Native of Far Madding as well. Remember from her previous pint of veiw that she is having to work to not fall back into local paterns of behavior. The remark is specifiy that she has NEVER HEARD Cadsuane use "uppity" to refer to a man. It seams reasonable to conclude that she dosn't think that men should not have a say in things. However we also know from Cadsuanes on PoVs that Sorelia is the first person she would consider an equal sence Norla, and that she is not impresed by crowns and titles. So why should she asume that this 20 year old kid kows what hes doing? Especialy when he often seems to be demonstrating the opposite.
Wayne Wilson
75. stylusmobilus
Rand is really cold. The land is really cold. Towers of Midnight is coming soon.
john massey
76. subwoofer
Wow, I don't think we are having a Caddy debate, but if we are, no biggie, we have time until next Friday to kill.

Speaking of which- we all know that RJ does everything intentionally. Some of us were just talking about that in regards to "wells" that hold Saidar. The Tinkers are around for a reason. The Sea Folk are around for a reason. The wolves are around for a reason, so is Berelain. Is there any doubt that RJ made Cadsuane the way she is on purpose? I don't see him writing such a polarizing character by accident. The question becomes- why Caddy?

Is she there to show the ultimate fall of the old guard- the end of 3000 years of female Aes Sedai?

Or, is Caddy there because that is what Rand needs. A strong advisor that isn't going to lick his boots or take his crap, unlike everyone else. While my initial knee-jerk reaction to her was less than pleasant, lets look at the other side. I have had young kids- 20 somethings- working for me before. And their sense of entitlement and know-it-allness was really grinding, especially when most are still wet behind the ears. You have to walk a mile in a man's shoes before you can understand. Not a lot of the kids working for me were off their mom's apron strings for very long. Just out of school or from grade school to university etc, with no real life experience... all the while having mommy and daddy to fall back on, at the same time, insistant that they have experience and they know what they are doing. I'm not old, but sometimes I can see disaster like this coming a mile off.

Rand. In many ways is much the same. Yeah, he can draw from LTT's memories, after he reconciles himself with LTT- before he is just fodder for some shrink's couch, but Rand is not ready to go down that road willingly. Rand is also doing a masterful job at driving away everyone, not just the sycophants but also the people who do care and want to help. Rand is being a dink to all. I think after Dragonmount, Rand will be more like books 1-3 but here? Meh.

Bottom line, Rand does need Caddy, she isn't all subtle manipulative like Moiraine, or 95% of the rest of the Tower, but Caddy gets the job done, even though Rand or the rest of us, don't like her methods. I think RJ did that on purpose.

john massey
77. subwoofer
Broke this up as it was getting too long.

Rand in Far Madding. I think Rand needed this, or a stedding. At this point in the story Rand is afraid of the Power. He is at the point were he either goes and hides in a room when he attempts to seize Saidin or he is holding onto it all day- when he is not fighting LTT for control.

I often talk about a true hero being a guy who gets things done without any special powers. I think Rand is remembering what it was like at the start of the adventure when all he had was his dad's sword and a wide eyed view of the world.

The other thing is, Rand vs. 5 Channelers is not good odds. Rand still has trust issues, with everyone around him, so although he has Caddy and a whole troop of Channelers following him, does Rand trust anyone when the chips are down? Not yet. I feel that he would rather trust to his wits and his skill with a blade than with trusting others or his abilities with the Power. Trusting what is real and tangible in front of him.

This actually reminds me of Rand's first time in Caemlyn where he is running from the mob and has only his feet and his street smarts to keep him alive. Rand's thinking has matured since then, gotten quite a bit darker, but he has a grasp of strategy. I actually enjoy what goes on here.

john massey
78. subwoofer
Pt 3-

The one thing that does grind on me is the crushed cups. What is up with that? Is everything made out of a soft lead or pewter? Are these things a funny off-round shape so the structure has no integrity? Has anyone tried to crush a metal cup IRL? Bloody hard! And I think back then, the molds for these things were not as fine- cups were much thicker, nowadays I think we use a metal stamp- but anyways, why can't Rand just have a handful of walnuts or something? Same goes for Perrin, the guy makes the darn things, why can't he build a sturdy cup?

john massey
80. subwoofer
Well- I suppose I can crush one of those... How about one for the Dragon?

j p
81. sps49
Oaky, sub, where have those balls been?
Jonathan Levy
82. JonathanLevy
..aaaaaaaand I just pre-ordered ToM. In hardcover. Overseas. I'm not sure if I deserve a round of applause or a round of commiseration - or neither :)

There are worse addictions, I keep telling myself.
Jonathan Levy
83. JonathanLevy
81. sps49

Maybe he just got back from the Vet's.........?

(evil chuckle)
84. Ouroboros
OMG! This is terrible. I've just found out the Cadsuane drinks a cup of tea in the Towers of Midnight. I can't believe this. Is there no depth to this woman’s wickedness? I'm so angry that I just broke another bloody wine cup. It looks like I'll have to put in an order for those titanium goblets I saw on Amazon the other day.

But seriously, Cadsuane didn't call Rand uppity. Verin is just saying that Cadsuane is not impressed with Rand at the moment. I think calling Cadsuane a sexist from this alone is rather a big stretch. Dare I suggest that certain personages are allowing there long standing opinion of Cadsuane to get the better of them? :)

Also, if we're going to bash Cadsuane for mistreating men, we ought to stop and take a look at Nynaeve. After all, you can hardly complain about a light shower until you've been out in a down pour. :)

On the woman that frightens LTD

Okay, I'm confused by the confusion. Rand is watching Verin leave, and that's the thought that comes immediately before LTD's comment. So, it's Verin he's talking about. Rand then comments about Cadsuane, following in the same vein. It's like saying:

The rain poured on Rand's head. "I don't like rain," Lews Therin said. He didn't like the cold.


I really want to know what this picture is. After all, shaming people should be an equal opportunity sport. [I need a smiley with shades and a white stick!]

13 TehBane

Well, a trope isn't a trope unless it's... err... a trope? BTW, it works much better with glasses - they shatter - harder to clean up, though.

@54 Terez27

Her intensions might be obvious to the reader with future knowledge, but they're far from that to the characters in the moment. If they were, Verin, who is very good at manipulation, wouldn't have nearly poisoned her. It takes a long time for some characters to work out what she's about.

57 sweetlilflower

I suppose this just shows how differently everyone views things. The first scene between Rand and Cads is probably the one which puts me most firmly on Cadsuane's side.

It’s the reader's attachment to Rand which is causing the misunderstanding. They don't want to face up to the fact that at this point he's coming across as a very unlikable character to almost everyone else.

TFoH: 46

He did not understand why those coming before him began to sweat and lick their lips as they knelt and stammered the words of fealty. But then, he could not see the cold light burning in his own eyes.

ACoS: 35
... Lady Caraline kept her eyes on Rand. She drew rein three paces away, just far enough so he could not reach her afoot before she could dig in her heels. “I can only think of one gray-eyed man with your height who might suddenly appear out of nowhere, unless perhaps you are an Aiel in disguise, but perhaps you will be so kind as to supply a name?”
“I am the Dragon Reborn,” Rand said, every bit as arrogant as he had been with the Sea Folk, yet if any ta’veren swirling of the Pattern was at work, the woman on the horse gave no evidence.

Rather than leaping down to fall to her knees, she merely nodded, pursing her lips. “I have heard so very much about you. I have heard you went to the Tower to submit to the Amyrlin Seat. I have heard you mean to give the Sun Throne to Elayne Trakand. I have also heard that you killed Elayne, and her mother.”

“I submit to no one,” Rand replied sharply. He stared up at her with eyes fierce enough to snatch her out of the saddle by themselves. “Elayne is on her way to Caemlyn as we speak, to take the throne of Andor. After which, she will have the throne of Cairhien as well.” Min winced. Did he have to sound like a pillow stuffed full of haughty? She had hoped he had calmed down a bit after the Sea Folk.

85. alreadymadwithbookrelease
At least I'm pretty sure one of the bookstore chains around here will carry TOM. It had TGS before. They also ran out of stocks on the first day, but this time I got mine reserved :P
Thomas Keith
86. insectoid
Bergmaniac @69: Welcome to the bunker, we've got fun and games... Relax, Suffa, he's new! ;)

Free @73: Re: Cadsuane... Well said sir!

Blind @79 et al: ROFL!!

Cameron Tucker
87. Loialson
Ah! Caddy....

Not much to say here. She isn't my favorite, but hey, Momo will be back soon!! Yay, she IS a fave. I'm SO ready for some more Moiraine Infodump™ goin on.

She really does own the trademark for that in this series I think btw.

Oh, and random addition. Just finished a saturday nap, and I had a stormlight archive spinoff dream. Weird having spren in your dreams y'all. Was very fun, and scary creepy at parts. It actually ended too(I usually only dream my dreams in bits, it's rare to get the whole dream/story of it/ for me in one go). I'm thinking of writing it out and posting it on the WoK spoiler thread. Was very impressionistic for me. Makes me realise just how good of a writer Brandon is when my subconscious begins to refer to HIS made-up worlds in my made up worlds( in my head) :).


(P.S.: btw is there any way to change font size when I post? Copy and paste from ms word automatically puts it to the same size as the rest of the text when I paste. Drat)
88. Tesla_sunburn
84. Ouroboros [/b]
I wish I could find it funny that you guys are being so terribly condescending about other peoples opinions on Cadsuane while being so willfully ignorant. Verrins "uppity" quote is not really open for interpretation. It is very strait forward. Verrin is telling Rand he must understand that Cadsuane is a product of the Far Madding culture i.e. she has trouble with the idea of an equal relationship with a man.

You know, this is my first post but I have been lurking for quite awhile. It seems to me that every time a Cadsuane discussion breaks out there are three sides. The people who have a reasonable dislike of Cadsuane while acknowledging her good qualities, the people who reasonably support Cadsuane while admitting she has flaws. and then the people who believe that Cadsuane is perfect and no one should be having the debate.

You are of course free to do as you choose but if you can't really have this debate and instead liken your opponents reasonable arguments to silly things then why not abstain from taking part in the discussion?
89. alreadymadwithmorecads
Beren @39
Rand's primary reason in coming to Far Madding was indeed, to kill the rogue Asha'man. It didn't work out, but that was more due to Fain's interference than any flaw in his plan. The plan was to lure the Asha'man where their advantages of numbers and Power were nullified. Instead, as a blademaster, Rand knew that without the One Power he could take all four or five and still come out on top.

Terez27 @54
I wouldn't agree about her first meeting with Rand. Cadsuane went there to announce her presence. And to show Rand that him and all his allies were not enough to intimidate her. And hopefully to intrigue him enough that he wouldn't destroy her on sight. Not that I think her arrogant enough to pit her ter'angreal against the Dragon Reborn and win. She went there to deliberately provoke Rand. Rand thought so. She said so herself. She just walked in and was very condescending to everyone. All to see how Rand would react. Part of her tactic, I suppose, to show the Asha'man she would not be cowed. But she went overboard. She might think Rand had no manners, but she was in his throne room throwing her weight around.

I think there's only one font size on the page. Word might give you a different font, but the actual script on the thread won't recognize it and just set it to default when it posts.

Tesla_sunburn @88
Ah, but that's the good part of the debate. No, scratch part. That's the prelude to the good part. The good part is afterwards when everybody heads down to the bunker for some cake and oosquai...
Thomas Keith
90. insectoid
TLO @87: Us mere commenters can't do silly font tricks, but the blog author can. (See Leigh's commentary on WH part 9.) You can change the font color, though, so that's something.

Max Espensen
91. Andvari
Tonka@72: It's kind of the case in that it's a similar thing but a Well is a ter'angreal and The Eye of the World, for all its untainted liquidity, isn't a ter'angreal so isn't a well. The two are not comparable and there is no reason to think that another exists, especially given the uniqueness of tEotW.

Freelancer@73: Yep I'm very much aware of what did and didn't happen at the stedding, but I'm opining that if RJ had developed the concept of Wells by that point, it would have been a useful time to mention them if he had desired. He didn't, so either hadn't or didn't feel the need to, resulting in people claiming they were a deus ex machina in WH. Which I'd imagine to be out of character for him. The series is so well-endowed with impressive foreshadowing and lengthy plot threads that develop books later that it seems an odd oversight to me, that's all.
john massey
92. subwoofer
@T_Sunburn- you forgot the forth side- folks that down right hate Caddy and would not pee on her if she was on fire.

With the exception of gun control we are all fairly even keeled around here. No point in getting up in arms -heh- here. We are all just trying to have a conversation about a world we enjoy, we are not trying to topple a nation or cure cancer so no point in getting our collective knickers in a knot (those of us that choose to wear knickers anyways).

FWIW-It's hard to stay mad at your drinking buddies.

@sps49- the balls are green, where'd ya suppose?

Annnd... Just saw the movie Red, was good fun. Gave it a paws up.The pink piggy John Malkovich stole the show:)

93. tesla_sunburn
I defy you to find a single post supporting that point of view subwoofer
john massey
94. subwoofer
I defy you to eat ice cream outside in -40 celcius weather.

john massey
95. subwoofer
Kidding- it's true- it is hard to stay mad at your drinking buddies.

Thomas Howard
96. didymos
Andvari @91:

The Eye of The World (the actual part containing the saidin) most certainly was a well. Word of RJ sayeth so:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 23 January 2003, Washington DC Borders Books and Music - Soni reporting

Soni: So the Eye of the World is a well, right?
RJ: [pauses] Yes and no. It's in the same class of objects as a well, but on a different scale.
Soni: So could it be refilled by a male channeler?
RJ: No. Remember, lots of Aes Sedai died to make it.
Soni: To keep it pure.
RJ: That, among other things. Look, a normal well is like this water glass. [he gestures] The Eye is like a liquid nitrogen canister.
Soni: So are wells made with the opposite half of the power that they were meant to contain, like Rand did at Shadar Logoth.
RJ: [sly smile] No, they don't work like that.

So, there you go: wells were introduced in the very first book of the series. The Eye may have been a unique variant of the concept, but nonetheless it was "in the same class of objects".
97. longtimewotfan
Drinking English beer will allow you to channel in Far Madding....
Barry T
98. blindillusion
Well, if one were wishing to find posts of Cadsuane hate, the A Crown of Swords, part 11 post would be one place to look.

Sure, I don't believe anyone said they wouldn't pee on her were she on fire, but the sentiment was there...between the lines.

Of course, my views on Cadsuane have changed, do in large part to Wetlandernw's rather strong defense of the woman. I'll never like Cadsuane, though I now feel she's doing the best she can with what she has to work with, along with her own...failings?


And cream outside in -40 C (-40 F)? I'll be there. I'll even bring the drinks. Bunker of Solitude.
Alice Arneson
99. Wetlandernw
Hmm. Comments abound. Late to the party, but I'll say my piece anyway. As always. :)

First: I'm with a couple others on thinking that "that woman frightens me" was about Verin, not Cadsuane. It just makes more sense in context. Also considering Verin's behavior as noted by Rand (and presumably noticed by LTT), it's a reasonable comment. And in the whole context, it reads to me like LTT mean Verin, but Rand was thinking about Cadsuane and didn't register that LTT wasn't. JMO.

About Nynaeve using her Well in this chapter - I sort of assumed that a small enough use, like brushing Rand's cheek with Air, was under the radar. I have a hard time thinking it was a gaffe, given what happens in the next chapter and the effect thereof. I was pretty sure RJ put it in on purpose, partly to give Nynaeve some faint rationale for thinking she could get away with what she tried, and partly to demonstrate (yet again) how frequently she doesn't think all the way through something before she does it.

Regarding "Uppity" - In the first place, don't forget this is Verin's word here. You can't accuse Cadsuane of holding attitudes which offend you just because Verin (who can lie like a Tairen carpet if she wants, anyway) says "I've never heard her say that." For all we know, Verin has heard her say it a thousand times. For all we know, Cadsuane has never even thought anything like it, and Verin is just saying it to plant ideas in Rand's head. For all we know... Verin's words don't tell us a single reliable thing about whether or not Cadsuane thinks of men in accordance with her Far Madding heritage. Best to consider Cadsuane's own thoughts on that, rather than buy into any particular interpretation of (Sneaky) Verin's implications as though they were gospel truth.

In the second place - I have to say I've never until today heard of "uppity" as a racist and/or sexist remark in any context. And when I googled it, either as "define" or by itself, I didn't get much of that either. One link on the first page of hits does not, to me, indicate overwhelming evidence of "a serious trigger word." So I'm not from the South; so maybe Jordan was more aware of this connotation than I am. Or maybe he used it as it is defined by most dictionaries: someone who is overly arrogant or has an unduly inflated opinion of himself, or someone who thinks he's all that and a bag of chips, and can therefore do anything he wishes without regard for the rights or opinions of others. I suppose we could ask Harriet or Maria to clarify his intention in using it; they might or might not be willing to do so. Frankly, there are times coming (and a few already come) where the term in its dictionary definition really could be applied to Rand. IMO of course.

Ben @14 - I don't think the racist connotation is the "original" meaning.

(Like Andvari @17, this reminds me a little of someone's reaction to the use of "golliwog" recently - from what I could learn, the offensive connotation was due to a particular book/toy series that was popular in Britain a few decades ago, and has by now become a derogatory slang. I couldn't find much evidence of it having high visibility in America. Not that I did extensive research, but I did come to the conclusion that it's a bit judgemental to assume that an author is necessarily using a term with the same colloquial and offensive definition a given reader associates with it. Possibly naive to assume said author is unaware of said definition, but certainly not worth getting hot and bothered - and offended - without further supporting evidence.)

More to Andvari @17 - Part of the reason you rarely see an Aes Sedai with a real lack of intelligence is the training process. It takes a certain level of intelligence just to get through novice training; even a girl with relatively high strength but little intelligence would get gently (?) weeded out and sent home as unsuitable. (If she didn't do something truly stupid and burn herself out, anyway.) So... I don't think channeling ability and intelligence are necessarily related.

Kythorian @20 - Of course we've seen a lot of Aes Sedai do stupid things, but that's different than what Andvari was talking about, as you clearly understand. Everyone does stupid things, due to lack of information, incorrect assumptions, cultural prejudices or whatever. That's not limited to Aes Sedai - it's human nature, and reflected in most of the significant characters in the books.

Shadow_Jak @50 - :) !!!

Terez @54 - Hear, hear!

Freelancer @73 - Indeed! Well said, sir. Thank you for saving me the trouble. :)

Tesla_sunburn @88 - Well, I have to say that for a first post you're remarkably free with telling people to stay out of the discussion. I doubt anyone here actually thinks there's a single character who is perfect. To quote Ouroboros, "I suppose this just shows how differently everyone views things." The fact that he goes on to state his views, as others have, is quite acceptable here. We all have our opinions, and are free to state them. Sometimes we state them strongly, and sometimes we debate them quite strongly. What's the point of having an opinion if you won't defend it?

Oh, and everything is "open for interpretation" - especially anything Verin says, all things considered. As noted, she can lie with impunity, as well as making use of the standard AS misdirection and word-befoggery.

subwoofer @92 - ROFL!! Fourth side, indeed! And a large one it is, too, though notably smaller than it used to be. ;)

ts @93 - No way could he find "a single post supporting that point of view." If he were to bother looking, he'd find several hundred - as would you, if you honestly went looking.

@all - And on a completely unrelated subject - a LONG time ago we had scotch in the bunker, and someone mentioned one they considered "the best ever" which they discovered on a visit to Scotland. (An assessment with which several others agreed, BTW.) Can anyone tell me what that was, or do I have to go back and look it up? (tonka? toryx? I think one of you had something to do with it... but I could be wrong. I have an awful feeling it was on part deux of the TGS open spoiler... and I really don't want to toil through that again.)
Heidi Byrd
100. sweetlilflower
Verin's comment and our reactions to it remind me of something BWS said at Dragon*Con concering misconceptions people have about the story. When we first read this exchange between Rand and Verin, we liked Verin and took her meaning instead of what she actually said. Now, I am laughing at myself for not seeing the word twisting.
101. Tesla_sunburn
99. wetlander
I in no way wish to tell anyone not enter a discussion. Just that that I don't see the point in people just mocking the other sides point of view instead of making arguements against them. I apologize if I gave that impression.

As for Verin, no I don't think so. Verins motivation and and reason for saying anything is always in question(being the master spy she is) but what she intended rand to take away from that is pretty obvious. Why, and what she expected Rand to do though. *shrug* who knows.
102. Tesla_sunburn
Also I apologize I meant that you can not find a single post in this thread with that point of view. Nor have I seen it for quite some time
Max Espensen
103. Andvari
didymos@96: Hmm, I'd hardly say that quote lends any support to that. At best he says "yes and no" and then elaborates on the differences (which to me implies it's a lot more no than yes). Perhaps it comes to how you define it, but to me it's evident that the fundamental properties of a well are that it is a ter'angreal (i.e. physical object) which can be refilled by drawing the One Power through it. Both of those things are not applicable to tEotW. The thing you can say tEotW really introduces is the concept that the One Power can exist outside of its own collective mass where it usually resides, yes. But that doesn't make it a well in my opinion.

This is more interesting in my view anyway the physics and mechanics of the One Power. Of course, it's pretty dangerous ground to start applying our laws to a world which as the One Power but as we are left vague about the nature of the One Power it is interesting to speculate about things like how a stedding works. Is it the same mechanism as Mat's amulet? The danger for me is to just think of it as like electricity and that a stedding is something which is just an electrical insulator. Or maybe it's like heat and the stedding just creates a thin layer of vacuum around it. I wish we knew more about it, though I suspect RJ deliberately left it vague as it probably doesn't interest everyone and it would be too difficult to explain succinctly, even if he has a complete construct in his head. It's something that would make a nice chapter in the encyclopaedia though, I hope he left a lot of notes on it!

Wetlandernw@91: Yeah, I assume you're correct, but this is what I was wondering, in the sense that presumably the overall experience of being a novice and the tests will weed out people, but the tests themselves seem more about bravery than intelligence and from what we've read they tend to send away people who are lazy or overly rebellious or weak in the power. I can't recall anyone being sent away for stupidity though of course that doesn't mean it doesn't happen of course. What if someone with low natural intelligence came to the Tower with amazingly high potential in the Power? Would they try to take her on anyway? It'd be interesting to see.
john massey
104. subwoofer
Pregnant wife not sleeping= Sub not sleeping:(

@T Sunburn- no worries. I think you are new here so you probably are not aware of a few of things. First, Leigh doesn't like Caddy-heck, Leigh refers to Caddy as "a dreaded frenemy". Second, until recently, I was not her biggest fan either. Third, unlike Wetlander, Terez, Free and a couple of other folks, I really can't be bothered to go look something up- sounds too much like work. When I go to work, I work, here, I just wear a goofy hat and drink a lot.

As Blind referred to- ACoS 11. All are very familiar with it. The first appearance of Caddy. Much was said. Not very hard at all to find... negative comments about her here. There are quite a few of the position 4 stance there and on this thread in general. They are just respectful of the rest of us so they bite their tongues and suffer in silence. Thanks guys:)

105. Freelancer
Who is thinking of Cadsuane, and who is thinking of Verin...

“Few sisters are impressed by titles or crowns, Rand, and Cadsuane less than any other I know. She cares much more about whether or not people are fools. If you can show her you aren’t a fool, she will listen.”

“Then tell her… ” He drew a deep breath. Light, he wanted to strangle Kisman and Dashiva and all of them with his bare hands! “Tell her I’ll be leaving Far Madding tomorrow, and I hope she will come with me, as my advisor.” Lews Therin sighed with relief at the first part of that; if he had been more than a voice, Rand would have said he stiffened at the second part.

Lews Therin is relieved that Rand has decided to leave this "prison" where "there is no Source", but hearing that Rand wants Cadsuane as his advisor causes him to "stiffen". The subject is not verin. Lews Therin did not "stiffen" at Verin's appearance.

Sometimes that woman frightens me, Lews Therin murmured, and Rand nodded. Cadsuane did not frighten him, but she made him wary.

Is it the suggestion of some that Rand does not know who Lews Therin is speaking of? Or that he changes the subject with no reason? The topic of discussion had been Cadsuane. Neither Rand nor Lews Therin has expressed anything remotely like fear about Verin. On the other hand, Lews Therin always goes silent when Cadsuane is around. It is the overbearing Green who frightens Lews Therin, not the absent-minded Brown.


As for condescending, calling the folks here "willfully ignorant" moves you into that category quite firmly, wouldn't you say? And as for not being able to find a single post in this thread, one of your three Cadsuane factions hasn't been represented in any thread that I can find. Please point out a commentor, or a thread, where someone considers Cadsuane perfect. You'll not find me calling her so, and it seems the thought might have been aimed at me, since I weighed in with questioning why we were having the Cadsuane debate again. And yet, in that same comment, I admitted that she, like everyone else, makes mistakes. She too often chooses bullying, when being more engaging might have worked. She presumes her greater life experience substitutes for authority, when she really has none beyond what others allow her, or what she can force from them. So, who exactly is in this "Cadsuane is perfect" faction? And if you are willing to call out a group collectively, who are these "willfully ignorant" people?
Thomas Howard
106. didymos
It "hardly lends any support" to it? Sorry, but...huh? Seriously, that response baffles me. I don't see how you can draw that conclusion from what RJ said: he confirms it outright, stating that it is in the same class of objects and refers to the kind we see later in the series as normal wells. The clear and dead obvious implication being that the Eye is an abnormal well.

Anomalous as the Eye may be, however, that doesn't change what it fundamentally is:

An object created with the OP, which can store a finite amount of the OP indefinitely, and which requires channeling in a particular way to fill it. Which is to say it's, well...a well. As far as the refilling thing goes...not an issue. Doesn't change a thing. RJ's meaning was clear: if you had a bunch of channelers you were willing to spare, you could refill the Eye. You simply can't do so with one dude, or with exactly the same techniques.

Now, people are welcome to argue as much as they like over whether or not the Eye should have the same "term of art" applied to it. RJ seemed to think it probably deserved a different one, but hadn't bothered to coin it. Personally, I don't actually care what anyone calls it. I say "well" works just fine, but you can call the thing "Dave" if you like. Whatever the label, the fact will always remain that it does exactly the same thing as a well, only moreso, and that's all that matters as far as the worldbuilding goes. The concept was firmly established. It just didn't see another use until much later (cf. the True Power).

Also, we've seen other anomalous power-wrought gizmos which have pretty much the same relationship to the objects in their class: the Choedan Kal. The Eye is to a well as the Choedan Kal are to sa'angreal. Even down to the fact that the CK get a special name, require non-standard methods to "operate" (very powerful channelers+access ter'angreal), and aren't portable. They're still in the "Really good OP capacity enhancers" category, despite being (like the Eye) "on a different scale" (which, really, is putting it extremely mildly), and people still call them sa'angreal on numerous occasions.
Max Espensen
107. Andvari

I'n baffled as to how you think "Yes and no" lends support to either answer or how you think a glass of water and a Dewar of liquid nitrogen could ever be confused with each other. I guess we should comfort each other in our perpetually perplexed states.

Same with Wells, we've both said our piece and it largely comes down to how loosely you define Wells, your definition is looser than mine. I've already agreed that at the broadest sense of it, True Power existing outside itself has been mentioned but tEotW doesn't lead to the idea of an object which be permanently refilled, it's lake rather than a glass of water. I'm not so concerned about the size of it, more the idea of an object containing the Power rather than the Power existing itself as a pool, they are not the same thing or type of thing as their very physical structure is different. Again, in my opinion, the existence of the Eye as a nebulously-defined lake of saidin doesn't imply that the One Power can be stored in objects. I'm not losing any sleep over it though, it was more an idle comment on RJ having the opportunity to present Wells beforehand and not.

(Re: Choedan Kal, they are frequently referred to as sa'angreal whereas tEotW is never referred to as a Well so I'm not sure why it's relevant to your point.)
108. Wes S.
My two cents:

I myself caught the "uppity" reference the first time I read Winter's Heart. And no, I didn't think Jordan put it there by accident. He certainly was of an age (and I barely am) when such language was used, or at least misused with racially derogatory intent. Assuming "uppity" can be used in any kind of non-derogatory context, anyway...

It speaks volumes about how much progress we've made in this country toward racial equality, that most Americans born in the last two generations - even in the South - don't realize that "uppity" once had a racial connotation at all. (Too bad certain political leaders and the media can't recognize that...No, wait, sorry, let's not go there. Frikkin' politics...)

But I wonder if Cadsuane isn't the sort of person who's best described by the old joke "I'm not prejudiced; I just hate everybody." By the time we meet her, Cads has spent quite a few decades - centuries, even? - as an Aes Sedai, with all the training, education and experience that implies. Cads' life experiences therefore have worked to temper whatever attitudes and prejudices she started out with - and maybe reinforced a couple of them - and IIRC she's one of the most powerful channelers the Aes Sedai had to start with. Between her power and her experience, Cads recognizes few, if any, equals. For instance: Since her first appearance in the series, Cads treats many of her fellow Aes Sedai almost as badly as she did Rand. And treats most everybody else as a servant, when she isn't treating them with indifference or occasionally contempt.

It seems to me that the few people she is willing to treat as equals - or at least worthy of respect - are those who are willing to match her own drive and determination. I think that's why Cads has such regard for Sorilea, despite Sorilea's weakness in the One Power. Judging from later chapters of The Gathering Storm, she also seems to be developing some respect for Min, because of the intense efforts Min is making to educate herself and help Rand. (It probably helps that Min, through her research, came to the same conclusion Cads had concerning Callandor...)
109. Freelancer
didymos is right. The Eye is a container of the Source, in fact is a well in appearance, unlike those ter'angreal which bear the name. The difference is probably that the physical container itself used to store the essence at the Eye cannot be refilled in the same way that Nynaeve's ter'angreal can. That would constitute the reason for the "yes and no" answer.

The question at hand being whether the author introduced the concept prior to Winter's Heart, the answer is yes.
Tess Laird
110. thewindrose
This part from 'A Portion Of Wisdom' is interesting:
Lan smiled, a rare event without Nynaeve present. It did not reach his eyes, though. "She forbade me to reveal it to you, but since you already know....She and Min convinced Alivia that if they could catch Cadsuane's interest themselves, they might be able to bring her closer to you. They found out where she is staying and sasked her to teah them." The smile faded, leaving a face carved from stone. "My wife has made a sacrifice for you, sheepherder," he said quietly. "I hope you remember that. She will not say much, but I believe Cadsuane treats her as if she were still one of the Accepted, or maybe a novice. You know how hard that woul be for Nynaeve to bear."
"Cadsuane treats everyone as if they were novices," Rand muttered. Uppity? Light, how was he to deal with the woman? And yet he had to find a way.
{...}"A remarkable woman, Cadsuane," Alivia said{...}"A strict taskmistress, she can teach."
{..Min..}"Remember she wants an apology for Cairhien. Think of her as your aunt, the one who won't put with an nonsense, and you will do alright with her."
"Cadsuane is not as bad as she seems." Nynaeve frowned at the other two women, and her hand twitched toward the braid drawn over her shoulder, though all they had done was look at her. "Well, she isn't! We will work out time. That's all it will take. A little time."

I like the forshadow that Rand owes Nynaeve here, I hope it is pointing to Rand sending help to Lan.

And we have "uppity" mentioned again. With some more words -to inform us he was using it as it's defintion I think. Overweening, persumptuous, taking liberties. These do all describe Cadsuane, she even thinks about what it would take to break her when dealing with Semi, and was amazed to think they were alike.

john massey
111. subwoofer
I have been skirting the issue, but I use "Yippy skippy" in every day conversation- is there any Southern slang for this too? Inquiring pups want to know.

Who is thinking of Cadsuane, and who is thinking of Verin...

... and who is thinking of spanking Berelain;)

I think Rand does owe Ny, especially after she helps Rand cleanse Saidin. Big time. But this is a start to things- as Rand goes into his downward spiral of guilt and mis-trust, he has Nynaeve as the one female channeler that he can fall back on, time and again. I think that this is the point where Rand sees that there is at least one person in his immediate sphere of influence that he can trust who has no designs on using him as a stepping stone for greater things. Remember this lesson well Sheepherder.

Jonathan Levy
112. JonathanLevy
92. subwoofer
We are all just trying to have a conversation about a world we enjoy, we are not trying to topple a nation or cure cancer so no point in getting our collective knickers in a knot.

What are you talking about?! I've been working on Tanzania for six years now, and this is the thanks I get??

92. subwoofer (just to help you out)
93. tesla_sunburn
I hate Cadsuane. If she were on fire, I wouldn't pee on her.
Especially if there was a high-pressure hose available linked to a very cold water source.

99. Wetlandernw
I've recently discovered 'Caol Ila', a very smooth and peaty single malt, yet not as smokey as Laphroaig. Do you know it? Has anyone else tried it?

Also, I never heard even a hint of 'uppity' having any racist connotation. Of course, I'm not the right person to ask. I think it may be fair to say that occasionally Fearless Leader presents an interpretation which is slightly more provocative than that held by the average Fearless Follower, engendering a loooong discussion which otherwise would never have come up. A cynic might suspect that this is done on purpose! :)

This in no way detracts from the great pleasure we derive from reading her works, written with rare wit and great ability. It might even add to it.

Andvari @17
Wetlandernw @ 99
I think it's not so much that we don't see stupid Aes Sedai; it's more that we never see an Aes Sedai publicly acknowledged as stupid, or publicly treated as such. I think 'publicly' also includes a conversation between two people. This is because of the power they wield, the authority which proceeds from the mystery with which they wrap themselves, and the cultural context which sees a Matriarchy as the natural order of things.

The only people who break this taboo are the Forsaken, Fain, and... Mat. :)

101. Tesla_sunburn
I in no way wish to tell anyone not enter a discussion. Just that that I don't see the point in people just mocking the other sides point of view instead of making arguements against them.

I think most of the people involved don't see it as mocking. Think of it as an old married couple talking - you can be shocked to hear how they speak to each other, but when you realize they've had the same conversation every night for the past 30 years, you don't worry about it any more.
(Just to clarify: I understand that you meant no offense to anyone, and I personally took no offense at all.)

Also - welcome!

107. Andvari
(Re: Choedan Kal, they are frequently referred to as sa'angreal whereas tEotW is never referred to as a Well so I'm not sure why it's relevant to your point.)

Sa'angreal are a well-known category, and are therefore frequently discussed. On the other hand, the name "Choedan Kal" comes from Lews Therin, so everyone else has to call them Sa'angreal, simply because there is no alternative.
Contrast this with Wells, which are rare and almost unknown - it is even possible that Cadsuane invented the name, or even just used it as a description of the ter'angreal, and Nynaeve took it for the name. The Eye had its own private name, and was very famous, especially in the blight. It is therefore no surprise that the Eye was always called the Eye.

Because of these differences in context, I don't think the differences in naming schemes are sufficient to break the analogy. I think the "Choedan Kal to Sa'angreal as Eye to Wells" analogy is a good one.
john massey
113. subwoofer
@JL- well then, I didn't know you were in the market for gold mines, although I did picture you as a farmer;)

As for the Eye of the World- oh, well:P

Aes Sedai- yeah, I think that if the female channelers showed any potential at being a complete numb nut, the tests will have weeded them out. In New Spring we see the lengths Moiraine and Siuan had to go through, and they were the best at that time. Imagine how impossible it would be to pass anything if you had room temperature IQ. I just don't see it.

Aes Sedai may be self absorbed, self centered, cowish and oblivious to the world around them, but that doesn't mean they are dim, by any stretch of the imagination.

Holly Finnen-Stewart
114. Branwhin
Hmm. Far Madding gives me the collywobbles for several reasons, not least of which is how horribly uncomfortable it must be for channelers. Add in the misandrist attitude, and it's just horribly wrong all around.

Though, I must say it gives us a clearer picture of where Cadsuane came from ... I never would have thought it Verin's native city, though. Interesting.

Pumpkin loaf in the bunker ... last one in's a rotten egg and will be scrubbed by Suffa!

*streaks for the bunker*
Tess Laird
115. thewindrose
Since we are getting all crazy about meanings of words - Branwhin - streaking to the bunker - do it fast!! I will have a blanket waiting;)

subwoofer (sleep deprivation - it is just starting:)
According to the Urban Dictionary:
Yippy Skippy: a sarcastic answer to anything that you have to do or something that doesn't sound fun. also can be used when you just don't give a damn about something and want to use sarcasm.
Idiot 1: I'm leaving.
Idiot 2: Yippy skippy.

Good pumpkin loaf:)

Alice Arneson
116. Wetlandernw
I just have to say it one more time... Cadsuane does not use the word "uppity" ever in the series. Remember, this conversation is between Verin and Rand; Cadsuane is out of the city with Nynaeve, Min & Alivia:
"Verin, if I went to Cadsuane, would she talk with me? About something other than how my manners don't suit her? That's all she ever seems to care about."
"Oh, dear. I'm afraid Cadsuane is very much a traditionalist in some ways, Rand. I've never actually heard her call a man uppity, but..." She laid fingertips against her mouth in thought for a moment, then nodded, raindrops sliding down her face. "I believe she will listen to what you have to say, if you can manage to erase the bad impression you made on her.[...]"
I find it difficult to understand why people insist on discussing this as though Cadsuane had actually called Rand uppity (whether with discriminatory implications or without), when in fact we don't know that the word has ever crossed her mind, much less her lips. Stop it, already!

IMO, Verin certainly wishes Rand to think about how to interact with Cadsuane, and obtain her advice, without wasting any more time trying to intimidate or browbeat her. Again IMO, there are several reasons for Sneaky LightMole Verin to want Rand to get this. (Keep in mind her statement: "You could do far worse than Cadsuane for an advisor, Rand, but I doubt you could do better." Now that she is confident that Cadsuane is not Black Ajah, she wants Rand to have this, the best advisor available.) For one thing, browbeating and intimidation are obviously not going to work on Cadsuane, partly due to her personality and partly to her ter'angreal, so an effective working relationship requires Rand to stop trying that tactic.

For another thing, it's Rand's mindset and humanity that are vital to the survival of humanity, not Cadsuane's. If Cadsuane spends the rest of her life thinking she's better than everyone else, the only real effect is that she'll continue to annoy, frustrate or intimidate others, depending on their personalities. If Rand spends the rest of his life thinking he's better than everyone else, continuing his current trend toward arrogance, coldness, and inhumanity, his victory could be worse than his defeat. It really is important for Rand's mindset to change;
a good place to start is for him to choose to be polite to other people. And why not be polite to someone who has a lot to offer him, while he's at it? IMO, he needs to stop thinking that he and only he can come up with tactics, strategies and solutions that will be effective. Certainly many of the final decisions will be his, but he could benefit greatly from the input and experience of others, and at this stage of the story he's moving farther and farther away from this.

There are more, but that's enough to be going on with for now.

Oh, and about weeding out girls who just aren't smart enough to become Aes Sedai, I doubt those would even get as far as the real testing. Someone with loads of potential but no smarts might end up being a novice for a long long time, but she wouldn't even be allowed to test for Accepted until she showed enough intelligence to cope with the responsibility. More likely, I think, she would get enough training to make sure she wouldn't do any damage, and then she'd be sent back to her people. But you don't hear about it - probably because it's not really relevant to the story.

EDIT - to remove the tiny spoiler, since I couldn't get the text color thing to behave itself. My apologies to anyone who read it and didn't want to.
john massey
117. subwoofer

This run for the bunker is so liberating!!

john massey
118. subwoofer
@Wind- I resemble that remark;)

Alice Arneson
119. Wetlandernw
subwoofer @117 - LOL!! Love it.

Got some surprisingly yummy homemade plum wine for the bunker - dry or sweet, they're both good. Husband and father-in-law were experimenting last year, and it turned out to be a very successful experiment.

See you in the bunker!
Julian Augustus
120. Alisonwonderland
Wetlander @116:

For one thing, browbeating and intimidation are obviously not going to work on Cadsuane, partly due to her personality and partly to her ter'angreal, so an effective working relationship requires Rand to stop trying that tactic.

Isn't that a laugh. Cadsuane has tried unrelenting browbeating and intimidation against him non-stop (I am curious how else you'll interpret slapping him around and hitting him with power-wrought switches) since she met him, to the extent that Rand has developed an insane hatred of anything to do with her. Cadsuane apparently thinks that is a good way to build an effective working relationship. I'm glad you at least acknowledge that is a poor tactic. What I have difficulty with is that you decry Rand's attempts to impress her with his title and power (which excludes physical violence against her person, yet you call that browbeating and intimidation) and in the same breath excuse what is in my view Cadsuane's much more reprehensible behaviour (which includes employing physical violence against him).
Alice Arneson
121. Wetlandernw
Alisonwonderland @120 - Cadsuane showed up in A Crown of Swords; I'm now finishing Crossroads of Twilight in my own reread (a full book after this point in Leigh's reread) and so far in those three-and-a-half books she's never used the Power against him. So far, she slapped him once for using balefire in a totally stupid situation (which induced him not to use it again in another stupid situation) and she slapped him another time for using "language" after she just got done warning him not to do it again. Please note that the second slap came after he had asked her to be his advisor, when she told him that if she agreed to do so, one of her terms would be not to cuss at her. Granted that she hadn't agreed yet, but he wasn't exactly demonstrating any ability to control himself.

In return, so far Rand has shouted at her, cursed at her, tried to use his handful of Asha'man to intimidate her with titles and Power-wrought weaves (which failed utterly and laughably), and is finally attempting to control his behavior and use the barest courtesy.

I fail to see how any of that adds up to Cadsuane trying "unrelenting browbeating and intimidation against him non-stop". The closest thing she's done to "intimidation" was to let him know that she knew (far more than he) what men were likely to go through as they were affected by the taint on saidin. The fact that he freaked out when he realized that an Aes Sedai knew more about it than he did hardly counts as deliberate intimidation in my book.

In this situation, he notes that he's "wary" of her - as well he should be, since he has yet to attempt more than about two reasonable conversations with her.

I'm sorry, I just don't see your claim that "Cadsuane has tried unrelenting browbeating and intimidation against him non-stop (I am curious how else you'll interpret slapping him around and hitting him with power-wrought switches) since she met him, to the extent that Rand has developed an insane hatred of anything to do with her. " is even remotely relevant at this point in the story.

EDIT to add: I haven't done an exhaustive search, but the only time I can find that Cadsuane actually used the Power on Rand in the whole series is in KoD Chapter 21. He's shouting at people for things other people did and she feels his manners are... lacking, considering what was accomplished on his behalf by the people he's roaring at. Can you point me to the rest of your examples, please?

Second Edit: Incidentally, let's not forget that at least three times she saves Rand's bacon. In Far Madding, once he was captured they would have turned him over to Elaida if Cadsuane had not "browbeaten" the Council into releasing him to her. (Can you give me anyone else who could have done this?) At the Cleansing, Rand would have sat down with Nynaeve and no protection except Lan, not thinking that all the Forsaken (except Mesaana, who chickened out, and Semirhage, who was busy slaughtering the Imperial Seanchan family) would show up to stop him. If Cadsuane had not organized a defense for him, he and Nynaeve would have been toast long before saidin was clean. Then when he met with the fake Tuon, it was Cadsuane's presence with her ter'angreal that unmasked Semirhage in time to limit the damage to Rand's hand instead of his life.
j p
122. sps49
I dunno, Wet; Rand doesn't expect to survive Tarmon Gaidon. The character is portrayed as doing as well as he can while dealing with a LOT of stress, although under the influence of the Dark One (via the TP) lately.

Rand has been mostly successful so far. Cadsuane has had less success. Perhaps she could think about maybe modifying her methods, as Moiraine did? There is no point in testing the Dragon Reborn or having him jump through hoops, he is the One and Only Hope of the Entire World and All Creation, Too.

Try and help him succeed, okay, everyone?

Try harder.

(Oh, please, hide your spoilers better or leave them out. I'm twitching from the wait and from avoiding the spoiler threads as it is!)
Alice Arneson
123. Wetlandernw
sps49 @ 122 - I most humbly apologize for the spoiler. I had entered it in a way that should have hidden it, and it was hidden in the comment box, but I forgot to check it in the actual comment. I will fix it or remove it, and promise to check more carefully in future.

As far as Cadsuane's success... prior to Rand's arrival she had dealt with more than 20 male channelers, and helped them survive the gentling longer than any men captured by the Red Ajah. In CoT, Rand's party is staying with a man who is eternally grateful to her for taking his brother, who came home and lived at least 10 years after he was gentled. It argues a certain amount of success. The fact that the Dragon Reborn is a somewhat different case is obvious, but hardly something that could be planned for in any way. Rather an unprecedented thing, that.

If you think about it, the only thing Cadsuane consistently got on Rand's case for was his manners - which you ought to be able to admit were mostly atrocious in those cases, however understandable. And generally, she only got on him for failing to control his anger, though of course she didn't phrase it that way. She never, that I can find, tried to tell him what he ought to be doing about the last battle or other Dragon-y things unless he asked her opinion. In those cases, she gave her considered opinion as his advisor.

As has been mentioned before, Moiraine only "changed her tactics" after a year and a half of (attempted) micromanaging Rand's path didn't work. Cadsuane has had, from the time she met him until the end of Winter's Heart, about three months with him. By the time she declares that "I have failed" and tries a different tack is just about 5 months. The comparison is... a little odd, I think.
Thomas Keith
124. insectoid
Wetlander @123: I've found that text color is lost when you preview the comment; if you change the color right before you post, it will stay. (Likewise, if you edit, you'll have to change the color once again.) Add that to the list of comment-box bugs, Irene. ::waves::

edit: 15 days till drop date... *twitches*

Jonathan Levy
125. JonathanLevy

but hey, Momo will be back soon!! Yay, she IS a fave. I'm SO ready for some more Moiraine Infodump™ goin on.

Here's a thought. Moiraine will probably be a central character in ToM, at least after the point where she's rescued. But it will be the first time Sanderson writes her. With other characters, he had a whole book to get a feel for them, and sometimes messed up badly, even though he seems to have improved (yes, I'm thinking of Mat, and I know not everyone agrees with this opinion).

What's Moiraine going to sound/feel like when we finally meet her again? Is she still going to be mysterious and aloof, a Blue at heart? Or is she going to feel totaly alien to her previous self?
Theresa Gray
126. Terez27

I haven't done an exhaustive search, but the only time I can find that Cadsuane actually used the Power on Rand in the whole series is in KoD Chapter 21. He's shouting at people for things other people did and she feels his manners are... lacking, considering what was accomplished on his behalf by the people he's roaring at.

Also, she gave him a count of three before she smacked him. And when she did, Rand saw the point (after a moment of whining). And once again, Cadsuane saves him from ruining everything.
Antoni Ivanov
128. tonka
@125.Jonathan Levyshe going to feel totaly alien to her previous self?

Yes, likely this but not because of Sanderson. But because she has been absent for a 8 books and who knows what has happened in Finnland. I am not really sure she is going to play that central role as you seem to think
129. simonk1905
Wow I never knew that about the word "uppity".

TO just illustrate my point at the first mention of the word I think of this.
It's a childrens book from my childhood and not until today did I think that there could be any other interpretation of the word other than some one who is a bit stuck up. I am sure this book would go down like a lead balloon in the deep south.

Needless to say I live in the UK and am in Leigh's debt once again for the educational and enterntaining nature of the WOT re-read. I will be sure to moderate my vocabulary should I ever make it to Dixie.
Tricia Irish
130. Tektonica

I've found that if I post with a whited out spoiler (which we do over at the Malazan reread all the time), I have to immediately edit to white it out again, and then it's white and invisible in the post. Kind of pain, but it does work.

Cads: Bottom line: Her methods were not achieving her desired ends. She needed to change them. She is a smart lady and should've seen it wasn't working sooner. IMHO.
Theresa Gray
131. Terez27
It was starting to work, though. One example is the scene we were just talking about - Rand did eventually see what he was doing wrong, after Cadsuane smacked him around a bit. What would he have done if she hadn't? Most likely, there would still be a mess in Tear.

Rand didn't start to go truly off the wall until the Semirhage incident, at which point it was too late for Cadsuane to try something different. But she did anyway. Really, fetching Tam was a wonderful idea. The bit about the script was a little off to me, though. I wonder how much of that was RJ and how much was Brandon. And it worked, if not quite in the way Cadsuane intended.
Rob Munnelly
132. RobMRobM
@128 - Mat's destined to give up half the light to save the world. My strong assumption is he's losing his eye as part of a bargain with Finns to get Moiraine out. If true, the saving the world reference means she's going to be pretty darned critically important to the end game.

Theresa Gray
133. Terez27
Which we already knew from Min's viewing - Rand will almost surely fail without her.
Valentin M
134. ValMar
Terez @ 133
Just got ahead of me. IIRC Moiraine wasn't mentioned by name but it was safe to assume it was her.
I am a bit surprised that this viewing didn't seem to weigh on Min more or at all, that we could see. Or affect what she was doing to help Rand. I suppose there are limits to what an author can do in such a complex series.
Cameron Tucker
135. Loialson
@125 JLevy

Oh, I dunno on that. Brandon's been doing WoT for a few years now. With all the notes on Moiraine, knowing all her backstory, even having the outline for the second prequel(which I don't think we will get really), I'm pretty sure she will be well done. I mean, really, look at the seven striped lass and see how our Mat is back(with less scripts like in tGS thank heavens...was funny yes, but not really what I thought was Mat. The bench yes, the scripts, no)!

Besides, Team Jordan is working real hard to make sure he's getting the voices right(like BS mentioned Avi, Tuon, etc), and I think he's doing a darn good job. I even like his pacing better than RJ's(tGS had SO much goin on...unlike CoT, and such).

*dodges rotten fruit*

All in all, he's getting the job done, and doing it admirably.

Plus, he's a very nice and likeable person. That always helps.
Dorothy Johnston
136. CloudMist
Coming out of early voting this morning, I almost told a reporter -- on camera -- from the Tampa Tribune that I was voting early because I plan to spend Nov. 2 inhaling Towers Of Midnight. Fortunately (or not), I passed on the opportunity to reveal myself as a total WOTmaniac. :) I did, however, get to vote for a Mosquito Commissioner.

Getting slightly back on topic, I thought I'd pass on the warnings from Theoryland and Dragonmount: do not read the Glossary first thing! Apparently, there's something very spoilerish in there.
Antoni Ivanov
137. tonka
I didn't mean she is not going to be critical in the battle against the DO but that she might not play that much in the books, e.i. she is not going to be much on screen. I really hope I am wrong. She is my favourite character (well she and Rand both).
138. hamstercheeks
Andvari@17: I agree that we've never seen a stupid (i.e., low intelligence) Aes Sedai; I think most of them are pretty sharp to begin with, and the WT education adds extra polish. However, I don't think strength in the Power necessarily means high intelligence. For example, Cadsuane values Daigian and Kumira (R.I.P.) despite their lower strength, because they're insightful and observant.

EarthandIce@35: Like forkroot says, some characters have "Pattern-mojo." Tuon is likely one of them. Remember, Talmanes once asked Egwene if she were ta'veren; we all know she's not.

...Or is she? dum dum dummmmmm
Tricia Irish
139. Tektonica

LOL. And what, pray chance, qualifies one to be a Mosquito Commissioner? We need one over here on my side of the peninsula! This weekend was very very buggy. Let me know if they're effective!

PS: The first thing I'm going to read is the Glossary, even tho we shouldn't! Spoilers schmoilers.
140. hamstercheeks
Jonathan Levy @ 82:


I did the same thing. There are worse addictions.
James Hogan
141. Sonofthunder
I actually almost never read the glossaries, but now I'll be tempted to when I pick up the book. Hmm...

Oh and I was over at Dragonmount and was tempted ever so sorely by their Spoiler forum for ToM. I even peeked inside. Bad idea...since seeing the titles of all the threads piqued my interest further. Apparently there are a number of people that have read the book, judging from the size of a few of the threads on there! I refrained from going further, though. The only spoilers I still want is Chapter 2. Hinthint, Tor.

Oh and Cloudmist, hello from a former Tampa resident!! *waves*
john massey
142. subwoofer
Well then, good morning WoTers:)

Woulda been here earlier but I was waging a war vs. internet being down. Irony is, company's muzack suggested I go online to avoid long waiting time on the phone. I have a word for this.

Caddy- question- how many False Dragons has she successfully er... saved? Not including Taim, who I think needs some serious smackdown.

Incidentally, I love the tag "Hamstercheeks":)

I am also wondering about Noal. I don't know if I want him to be the one who is the "red shirt" for the ToG escapades. I was thinking that maybe Perrin tags along. Now, now, hear me out. Maybe Moiraine didn't talk about him because she dosen't recognize his "Young Bull" persona. And Perrin has a vested interest in whooping Slayer's a$$ who is known to take refuge in Ghenji, at least in his dreams. Perrin has also been buggering around the Tower in his wolf dreams too. Or, on another track, maybe before he gets Berelain to rescue Galad, Perrin gets Mat's butt outta a sling in a Tower rescue? That's when they lose Noal.

Just a thought.

Edit- last clip didn't do what I wanted it to.

Tina A
143. Tinaa
@99 Wetlandernw - I think WAAAY back then I advised 'Lagavulin 16 Year Old' as a belter of a malt. I have since discovered 'Auchentoshan 18 Year Old', which has taken over in my cabinet...
144. ONEwithPOWER
Ok, can someone help me out here..?

I've been trying to find this bunker I keep hearing about for over a month now, but all I've seen that provides any indication of where it may be is a pile of clothes with footprints leading away from them, going in the same direction as some paw prints I saw earlier...

I don't suppose anyone would be so inclined as to show me the path..?

I have cheesecake...
145. birgit
I've already agreed that at the broadest sense of it, True Power existing outside itself has been mentioned but tEotW doesn't lead to the idea of an object which be permanently refilled, it's lake rather than a glass of water.

The True Power is the DO's power. The One Power (saidin and saidar) comes from the True Source.

I am a bit surprised that this viewing didn't seem to weigh on Min more or at all, that we could see.

She does worry about it and thinks of it repeatedly.
j p
146. sps49
Wetlander @123- Maybe it isn't a very good comparison, but still.

I'm not a Cadsuane hater- she has been critically important where you've cited- but arg, that is one annoying character. Maybe your defensiveness regarding her (as percieved by me) brings too much of an urge to refute and how close she came in TGS to really messing up Rand is still fresh in my mind.

Terez27@131- The script has to be RJ, I think. A genuine conversation, even if enabled (and JUST enabled) by Cadsuane, would not have been perceived by Rand as a final, everyone-has-motives-even-my-father-who-I'm-seeing-for-the-first-time-since-learning-my-family-tree betrayal. Plus TP access influence.

Two weeks and counting...!
147. Branwhin
This-a-way, ONEwithPOWER, and welcome with or without cheesecake! I will take a nibble (or two). Yum.

Suffa will show you where to put it on the buffet board.
Matthew Smith
148. blocksmith
Posted early this round, but not often...

But have to chime in for Wetlandernw@93 (and JonathanLevy@112)

I can't recall the post, but I think I may have been the one to initially bring the Scotch to the bunker. I went on a trip to Scotland in '04 and had the following:

My best beer ever (MacEwan's 80 schilling...still gives me chills when I think about how good that was on tap) and I tried Caol Ila there was very excellent Islay. And then they started importing it later that year.

With regards to scotch, as long as you don't rely on the cheaper ones (well...the $30 per bottle range...if that's considered cheap), I highly recommend the following...(and any that are more than 12 years old)

Macallan 12, Balvenie double wood 12, Oban 14 (this is great had some last night), Balvenie 17, Macallan 18 (both of these are amazing but are very expensive).


Caol Ila 12, Lagavulin 16 (this is fantastic...but a touch pricey), Laphroaig (not as smooth but still good).

Hope this helps....

And with regards to Cads, there is a fourth (or fifth) group...those that feel that horse has been beaten, buried, dug up, re-beaten, flayed, and re-buried.
Thomas Keith
149. insectoid
CloudMist: Re: Glossary... Really? That's unusual... I don't recall anything really spoilery in TGS's glossary.

So unless Leigh pipes up and confirms this, I'm going to go with Tektonica... Glossary first thing! ;)

Blocksmith @148:
And with regards to Cads, there is a fourth (or fifth) group...those that feel that horse has been beaten, buried, dug up, re-beaten, flayed, and re-buried.
Ooh, ooh! I'm in that group! ;)

150. Tesla_sunburn
So, uh geez. Really wish I wasn't responsible for this.

I know its the conventional wisedom that Rand planned to heal Saidin with Nyneve alone but does he ever say that? He keeps the majority of his plan pretty quite if I recall correctly.

He was going to pick up Nyneve, is it possible he was going to pick up some ashaman up along the way?
151. Tesla_sunburn
I really don't feel calling Tam was a different idea. Or atleast it wasn't a drastic enough change. At the center of it she was still trying to manipulate Rand. Though granted "have a calm talk with Rand" time already ran out.

It always bothered me that Min, Nyneve and Cadsuane all have the same revelation about Rand and Cadsuane changed the least. The other two even tried talking with Rand and discovered that if they had talked to him sooner they might have saved him.
Barry T
152. blindillusion
Hmm. Glossary. I haven't read one since, hmm, LoC? Perhaps I should backtrack a bit. Spoiled, FTW! Right? No? Mmk.

14 days, 7 hours, 24 minutes until I start my Wal-Mart Search for ToM.

Yep, slow Monday.
Daniel Hanley
153. Kythorian
According to what I read, it sounds like Asmo's killer is revealed in the glossary, as well as another big spoiler for the events of ToM itself. If you don't mind having two things(one of them very major, from what it sounds like(not the asmo thing...who really cares that much about that anymore? Whatever the other spoiler is sounds like a big deal though), go ahead and read the glossary first, sure.

I don't have the books in front of me, and its been a while since I have read WH, but I believe he is pretty hesitant at first when Cads offers to organize his protection detail. The implication (or maybe outright said) is that he wasn't planning on taking anyone to protect him.
Rob Munnelly
154. RobMRobM
Re Glossary - detailed entry on Fists of Heaven in pre-TGS books gave me the idea they would be the vehicle used in the upcoming WT attack. Looked kind of spoilerish to me. Still waiting for the detailed Shara entry in TGS to bear fruit. R
Ron Garrison
155. Man-0-Manetheran
Shara: Note to self, check TGS Glossary.

I thought it interesting how often Noal brought up Shara in his tales in CoT...

Any (new) thoughts on Demandred in Shara???????
john massey
156. subwoofer
Wow- so I read the Glossary- not much there other than all the Seanchan terms which fly right over my head on a daily basis. The Ajah stuff is interesting but as for Shara- I'll let more discerning minds get into that. No comment.

I was in the process of rereading KoD which has its moments towards the end- I am at the Elayne part and just not feeling the book. I figure I'll try to muscle through to the Golden Crane chapter- my favorite in the whole flippin' series of books- then I dunno.

Rereading the Glossary in TGS prompted me to reread the prologue in TGS and man, I got chills.

Thulin hesitated, then stepped away from the wagon, laying a hand on Renald's shoulder again. "I'm sorry to be so abrupt. I... well, you know how i am with words, Renald. I don't know what that storm is. But I know what it means. I've never held a sword, but my father fought in the Aiel War. I'm a Borderlander. And that storm means the end is coming , Renald. We need to be there when it arrives... Light preserve us, my friend. We need to be there."

Holy Moo! This coupled with the stuff that is floating around out there now- ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! I'm dying for Nov 2.
I tells ya!

@Blocksmith- buddy- you got some expensive taste in booze! Or maybe I'm just a cheapy. Mind you this sounds like another clip of "Weekend at Bobby's" again. But lemme pull up a lawn chair and pour some in my Slurpee cup- I'm there;)

157. AndrewB
When I pick up a new WoT book, the first thing that I do is read the Table of Contents (for the chapter names). Occassionally, I will get a spoiler. The best example was in LoC in the chapter called "Raising of an Amyrlin" (or something close to that affect). I knew that Egwene would be raised Amyrlin (as a result of the foreshadowing in prior books).

The second thing I do is read the glossary. It occassionally helps to clarify some points. The Sea Folk society and the Seanchan society come to mind. I cannot recall a spoiler that appeared in one of the WoT's glossaries. However, there is always a first time.

I will read the chapter table of contents and the glossary first. Even if it is confirmed that there is a spoiler in those pages.

Will the bunker itself be spolier free? If so, we can always discuss BWS' new series. Now that was an interesting book.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Theresa Gray
158. Terez27
ValMar@134 - She was mentioned by name. It was oblique, but only very slightly so, as far as RJ goes. First, Min thinks that Rand will almost surely fail without a woman dead and gone. A few paragraphs later, she thinks that Moiraine was the only viewing she ever had that failed.

Sonofthunder@141 - No one at DM has the book yet, except for Jason and Jenn who are not talking. Everything on the TOM spoiler board deals with pre-release material at the moment, including reviews. The recent reviewers to talk - Larry and Pat - are covered in the only thread on that board that appears to have been started by me (I actually made the post in another thread, and Luckers moved it to be its own thread). But even they have only given review-type hints. Larry was the first to mention that Asmodean's killer is revealed in the book, but he won't say who it was, of course. That's the biggest 'spoiler' on that board.
Alice Arneson
159. Wetlandernw
hamstercheeks @138 - Excellent point re: Daigian and Kumira; most AS treat them almost like servants (or Accepted, which is about the same thing for them!) because they are so weak in the Power, but Cadsuane comments several times on their powers of intellect, insight and observation.

sps49 @146 - I just find it ironic that Moiraine is held up as an icon and example when she, as Rand's first AS contact, had a significant role in his mistrust of AS in general and those who have "plans for him" in particular. And that it took her SO long to realize that she can't make him play things her way - I mean, really, 18 months worth? Once, just at the end of TEotW, she "turned him loose" for a short time, but with hidden strings which didn't actually remain hidden from him all that long, so he trusted her even less. Then when she caught up with him again she spent more months trying to coerce, persuade and manipulate him into doing things the way she thought he ought to do them. Finally, when she knew she was running out of time, she "remembered how to control saidar" and used that to try another means of controlling Rand. Don't get me wrong, I like Moiraine, but she screwed up pretty badly too. And she had a chance at him before he got so hard, and scared, and psychotic. Why don't people complain more about her manipulation?

Tesla_sunburn @150 - He was going to pick up Nyneve, is it possible he was going to pick up some ashaman up along the way? Who? The only (living) Asha'man he's been willing to trust (sort of) for quite some time are Jahar Narishma, Damer Flinn and Eben Hopwill - the ones who show up with Cadsuane & co. It's not completely impossible that he had another idea for defense, but he never mentioned it even in his thoughts. Not in what little we see of his planning, and not in the three books since then. He certainly didn't make any suggestions or objections when Cadsuane started organizing the defenses, and gave no indication that he'd had any plans for it himself.
160. mellow yellow
Its also important to note that Moiraine didn't have any respect until after she had been through the rings in Rhuidean. She realized then that her time with him was growing short, and she'd better start using it wisely.
161. Wortmauer
RobMRobM@154: Still waiting for the detailed Shara entry in TGS to bear fruit.

...You mean the entry that first showed up in CoT. I don't think it will.[*] It's not really new information, just distilled from info we already had in the books, primarily from Graendal way back in LOC chapter 6.

Also, if I understand correctly, RJ didn't even maintain the glossary personally, so I don't think it's a vehicle for foreshadowing.

[*]Although, given Noal has been there, who knows? Maybe there's a redstone arch or metallic tower in Shara and that's where the rescue party will come out. Then we can have yet another circus travelogue, with a wagon train of exotic animals being imported from Shara across the Waste to Randland! I can hardly wait!
James Hogan
162. Sonofthunder
Ah, thanks for that info, Terez. I just saw the thread titles and assumed there was much spoiler-y goodness inside...still, I will maintain my distance for self-discipline purposes.

And Wetlander@ 159, good thoughts on Moiraine. She definitely greatly retroactively benefited from her actions at the docks and preceding...and I think we still have a soft spot in our hearts for her because she was the Aes Sedai standard, the "classic" AS, if y0u will. She was mysterious and devious and yet fully on the side of the Light. And face it, although her actions towards Rand and the corresponding results don't stand up to close scrutiny all the time, she is quite a bit less grating than Ms. M. For me, at least!
Jonathan Levy
163. JonathanLevy
113. subwoofer

@JL- well then, I didn't know you were in the market for gold mines, although I did picture you as a farmer;)

My wife is hoping for a pair of gold earrings for our next anniversary, and at the current prices it's cheaper to subvert the country and take over the mine :(

128. tonka

Yes, likely this but not because of Sanderson. But because she has been absent for a 8 books and who knows what has happened in Finnland. I am not really sure she is going to play that central role as you seem to think

Yeah, those are also good reasons for her to be a little different. As for her centrality, I should have been more precise. There will be at least a few chapters where she is the central character. I didn't mean to suggest that it would be so for half the book.

135. theLIGHTONE
True, Mat is done very well in the seven-striped-lass, but that just points out how off-key he was in TGS.

158. Terez27

ValMar@134 - She was mentioned by name. It was oblique, but only very slightly so, as far as RJ goes. First, Min thinks that Rand will almost surely fail without a woman dead and gone. A few paragraphs later, she thinks that Moiraine was the only viewing she ever had that failed.

Wasn't that reaction also triggered by her seeing Caraline Damodred, who looks a lot like Moiraine? I also think the evidence is sufficiently convincing.

Re: Glossary
If I were writing the glossary, I would paste the string "and also killed Asmodean" on 20 random entries, and then apologize and fix it in the second edition :) :) :)

Come to think of it, that should have been done that for TGS's glossary, not ToM's.... (evil chuckle)
Maiane Bakroeva
164. Isilel
Wetlandernw @159:

as Rand's first AS contact, had a significant role in his mistrust of AS in general and those who have "plans for him" in particular.

Yet most of it wasn't due to anything Moiraine did or didn't do, but what she represented - a very unwelcome and terrifying change in Rand's life. And Rand lapping up Ishy's anti-AS propaganda didn't help either.

I am really not sure what people think she should have done differently in TEoTW - TDR. Should she have told Rand that she was pretty sure that he was the DR the first time they met? _That_ would have gone over well, wouldn't, given how even after climaxes of TEoTW and TGH and all the proofs he got, Rand still thought that the White Tower could be setting him up as a False Dragon.

When Moiraine told Rand the truth in TGH and TDR , he reacted with disbelief and suspicion.
He was also refusing to learn what he needed for his future role, hence Moiraine manipulating him into position of authority in TGH, so that he would be forced to do so. She knew that the time was far shorter than she had initially thought - what should she have done?

Moiraine's big mistake was in TSR, when she failed to realize how much Rand had grown and changed in the short time and that he was ready for honest dialogue, as he wasn't before. Because of this abrupt and profound change, comparing length of time that Moiraine spent with Rand to that of Cadsuane is meaningless. Rand in TSR is a very different person from Rand in TDR, not to mention that LTT started to come out too, to comlicate the matters further.

Also, RJ depicted Moiraine's reactions to Rand's ta'verenness in a pretty contradictory manner. In the first 3 books she often relied on it to carry him through or to give her an idea of what to do. But in TSR she was suddenly completely blind to it's implications.
The usual for WOT dumbing down of authority figures, to demonstrate that a hero(ine) deserves to be in command, I guess ;).

Anyway, I found Rand's and Moiraine's working relationship at the end of TFoH vastly preferrable to that between him and Cadsuane.
Even though the fact that Rand needed the (false, IMHO) reassurance of the oath of obedience to interact with Moiraine as an adult diminished him in my eyes...
Frederick Huxtable
165. tegeus-Cromis
Regarding the killing of Asmodean:

Asmodean Asmodean, AsmodeanAsmodean Asmodean, Asmodean
Asmodean Asmodean, oh oh oh Asmodean
Come and rock me Asmodean...

Baby baby do it to me rock me
Baby baby do it to me rock me
Baby baby do it to me rock me

Everybody knows it was Colonel Mustard in the Pantry with the Mortar and Pestle, and "You!" was a misprint - it was actually "Ewe!" - he was distracted by the sight of his pet sheep Ewe who he hadn't seen for over three thousand years, and Colonel Mustard tried to hammer some sense into him, but failed, fatally for him, since the pestle was basalt - so in a very unfortunate sense, Colonel Mustard rocked him to death.
(Well? Are any other theories quite as entertaining? :)
James Hogan
166. Sonofthunder
Awesome. Although, I still like the theory that it could be a certain one-eyed Shienaran. ;)
Dorothy Johnston
167. CloudMist

I'm not sure what a Mosquito Commissioner does. It just appeared at the end of a long list of positions (Senator, governor, county council, etc.) .

I won't read the glossary in TOM but do promise that the first thing I'll read in AMOL is the end scene. Is there anyone that won't do that?
Valentin M
168. ValMar
Terez @ 158, J Levy @ 162
Thanks for the remainders.

Re the comparing Moiraine and Cads. I agree with Isilel (spelling?) that we cannot compare the lenght of time they spend with Rand. First, and less important, Rand wasn't with Moiraine all the time. Second, Rand was a very different person back then.
Whilst I may be biased in favour of Ms Damodred (she is the WOT character I hold in highest esteem- "favourite" would be an incomplete description- even before she tackled Lanfear) I respect Cads and what she is trying to do.
Both Moiraine and Cadsuane had a lot of personal traits, habbits, ways of dealing with people, through which they had to deal with Rand. Rand too had to absorb Mo and Cads' interactions through a rather unfavourable prism for the AS- e.g. Ishmael's machinations for Mo, Elaida/BA blundering for Cads.
Cads had a very difficult task and arguably failed. So far. She will be beneficial for Team Light in the end, I'm sure.
But, ultimately, Moiraine is a character at least one level above Cads in the series.
Tricia Irish
170. Tektonica
OK Blind@169: That is just creepy. Looks like a bunch of Myrdraal, in drag.
john massey
171. subwoofer
?? I thought it was a bunch of GAP mannequins wearing lettuce.

@SonofThunder- the spoiler threads are not soo bad, heck, I even posted on their a couple of times. It is all good stuff.

@tegus- LOL! I always had a sneaking suspicion.

@JL- China raised it's interest rates this morning, commodity prices should be dropping;)

Max Espensen
172. Andvari
Jonathan Levy@125: It is a worry that he might miswrite Moiraine, but (I guess depending on what transpired in Finnland) there will be lots of good reasons(/excuses) that she will be different. Maybe it will be more appropriate that she is written differently if something significant has happened. It could be interesting to compare her with Elayne, who he also hasn't written anything from and who presumably hasn't changed much.
john massey
173. subwoofer
Well, RJ has written Moiraine in a few different voices. I find that Moiraine in New Spring was very different that the Moiraine we see in TSR. It was for obvious reasons, as Moiraine was growing up, but look at what happened to Mat for being moments in 'Finnland, he was changed for life. Death plus mutliple person memories will do that to you. Moiraine fell into that world and is trapped there, no telling how that will change her. For all we know, she is wearing someone else's skin to blend in and now has pointy teeth.

I do admit, I am curious to hear how BS writes Moiraine, but I think it is necessary for her to evolve as a person. I would be very disappointed if Moiraine sounded the same.

Elayne? Well, maybe she will grow up into the queen she needs to be. The loopy mood swings as a result of pregnancy was getting me down. I am looking forward for Birgette and Mat to get back together. No Gaidal Caine in sight but meh.

James Hogan
174. Sonofthunder
CHAPTER 2!!!!!!!!
Kat Blom
175. pro_star
subwoofer@173 , I concur. The Mat/Birgette interactions are good times...let's hope for some of those in 2 weeks...squeeee!!!!! the countdown is on...

and blindillusion....shudder.
Daniel Goss
176. Beren
Chapter two is out! Of course, it's audio. Does anyone know if that will play on a smartphone? My computer at work doesn't have audio enabled. :(
Tess Laird
177. thewindrose
I have to wait until I get home to listen to chapter 2. Hmmm, maybe I should say there is an emergency at home.
Ok, I can handle this. I can wait. This will be practice as I can't take off time like last year and have a nonstop readathon!
blindillusion, yikes! Looks like members if a cetain faction I can't mention here;)

I would think Moiraine would be a bit changed if she has spent months with the snakes and foxes. Elayne is a Queen now and a soon to be new mom - I think that would change someone as well. I certainly matured a bit when I started a family, and I started late(30).

sub - Nice foray into Economics, would you like to play some Game Theory?

Don Barkauskas
179. bad_platypus
My post @178 was flagged as spam, but it contained a link to a BWS interview in which he confirms a spoiler in the ToM Glossary and suggests not reading the Glossary first. I assume the post will show up eventually...

The site is "Grasping for the Wind" and there's a link to it on BWS's Twitter.

Edited to correct silly typos.
Matthew Smith
180. blocksmith

Usually good liquor=no hangover. But I will always choose spending a few extra $$ for better taste. Why drink it if you don't enjoy it? Well, besides that. And that. And that.
Nicole Santa Maria
181. little_minion
Thought I'd check out the glossary, too. Nothing about Asmo's killer, but there are a bunch of books listed:

Commentary on the Dragon (by Sajius)
A Comprehensive Discussion of Pre-Breaking Relics
Echoes of His Dynasty
Falling Shale (history)
Marks and Remarks (history)
Meditations on the Kindling Flame (WT history)
Pelateos' Ponderings (by Pelateos)
The Proper Taming of Power (history)
Thoughts Among the Ruins (history)
The Wake of the Breaking

I'm not sure what the significance of these in-universe titles are; I don't even remember them being mentioned in TGS. They seem to be AoL and post-AoL writings...hmmm...neurons not currently firing...I leave this mystery to others.
Daniel Hanley
182. Kythorian
No no drink until you enjoy it. Even PBR starts tasting good eventually. and I'm convinced that PBR is made by having a drunk horse pee into a vat of dirty water. But enjoying the taste of higher quality alcohol from the beginning is definitely a nice advantage to no longer being a poor college student.

To little_minion @ 181, we are talking about the glossary in ToM. Apparently Asmo's killer and one more very important reveal from ToM is revealed in its glossary. So if you want to actually read the reveal of both of those, you should read the book before reading its glossary.
Thomas Keith
183. insectoid
Blind @169: What the heck?? O.o
LOL at Tek and Sub's suggestions.

SOT @174: Oh boy!! I'll listen to it later.

Bad_platypus @179: Hmm... well, maybe I'll just skim through the glossary. And if I see any mention of Asmodean I'll quickly turn the page and convince myself "I didn't read that! Nope, didn't see it, la la la!" ;)

Kythorian @182: ROFL!!

Matthew Smith
184. blocksmith

I can sympathize with the college drinking days...Keystone, Old Milwaukee, Milwaukee's Beast were all staples. Don't miss those days.
185. Hawkido
This whole Eye vs. Well debate is very interesting...

I see them as the exact same thing but seperated for the exact reasons that Jordan said... the size and scale. It would be like comparing a superfreighter to a carry-on bag both equally as portable as their analogues, and both hold about the same proportions as their analogue, and the time effort to fill them would be about the same as well... so filling a carry on bag would take a few seconds of stuffing and provide you with an immediate supply of goodies whereever you are. The superfreaighter you kinda have to be near it as you can't very well haul it around, filling it could take a life time even if you had 99 other people helping you (unaided by powertoys (TM)) but could contian all the goodies you would need to accomplish even the most monumental of tasks.

But the Real-Deal sealer is that so many of the words in WoT are of semitic origin (hebrew/aramaic, etc...) as most all other languages are derived from them. I feel it should be pointed out that "well" and "eye" are the same word in semitic languages... Plus how many songs/poems/love-stories compare wells to eyes? "eyes as deep and dark as wells", "I could drink from/drown in her eyes"

ala a'kul a'hal

k, so the contrast is size and scope, the likeness is in the actual function. I believe even Momo stated that all the AesSedai could ever conjure of the liquid TP (bidet?) was about a teaspoon. So I can see how creating this deep well of the stuff would/could consume the very channelers (Male and Female). I wonder if the same method used in the cleansing was also used in the drawing process used to fill the eye with liquid saidin free of the taint?

Haha I used taint, bidet, and liquid TP in the same post!
Alice Arneson
186. Wetlandernw
Isilel @164 - I don't know that I personally think Moiraine should have done anything differently - but then, I don't know that I personally think Cadsuane should have done anything differently either. Each acted according to the information and experience she had. I personally like the story Jordan wrote, so I have no real complaints. I just think it's extremely ironic that people criticize the one while applauding the other, when their actions were really not much different. The big difference is that Moiraine is young, beautiful and mysterious, while Cadsuane is old, blunt and forthright. FWIW, my primary issue with Moiraine, is that she deliberately reinforced the "Aes Sedai mysteriousness" but did nothing to counter the "Aes Sedai untrustworthiness" stereotypes for far too long. If anyone cares, my primary issue with Cadsuane is her habit of throwing huge (and sometimes painful) information out as if it were an afterthought. In both cases, I know they did it on purpose, but I don't have to like it. ::shrug:: I've just gotten to the point where I have to remind people that Moiraine wasn't perfect either.

CloudMist @167 - I, for one, will NOT read the end scene first. I don't want to know until I get there.
187. Wortmauer
Cadsuane: first impressions, I think that's our big problem with her. When someone asks you the equivalent of "Who are you and how'd you get into my living room," and your response is to ignore the speaker, walk up to a guest in said living room and examine him like a slave on an auction block ... well. You have no business using the word "manners" in any context other than a sentence beginning with "Oh, I'm so sorry, where are my."

(Her condescending talk of "children at play" and "that's a good boy" are no better, but by then we expect her opinion of herself to overrule social graces.)

She wants to make the point that thrones and titles do not impress her, I get that. But really, would that sort of entrance have been any more appropriate in a merchant's receiving room, or a pauper's hut? Or, this might be a better analogy, a private conference room in an office complex? You don't just barge in unannounced (well, OK, announced 1.5 seconds prior) and then act like you have a perfect right to be there and if anyone asks you why you're there you can not only evade the question but ignore the speaker.

Actually, the first few seconds of her entrance were pretty cool, although the Aes Sedai habit of being too high and mighty to wait to be admitted to a room kinda makes me sigh. (But most of the Aes Sedai do that.) It was ignoring Rand's quite reasonable questions and then having the gall to talk about his manners that sealed it. Yes, his tone was a bit harsh, but if you show up in my living room uninvited, mine would be too. Especially the second time I have to ask you what you're doing here.

But, rereading those bits of ACOS, something from the following chapter (19, "Diamonds and Stars") jumped out at me. Cadsuane is questioning the other Aes Sedai:
What of the rest, out in the Aiel camp? All Elaida's, I suppose. Have they also ... apprenticed ... themselves? None of us have been allowed as close as the first row of tents. These Aiel seem to have no love of Aes Sedai.
So: how did the Aiel stop Cadsuane from going where she wants when she wants? Nobody else can. Why didn't she just stare and stalk and Mistress Snip her way through the tents to talk to the da'tsang Aes Sedai or whomever else she wanted?
188. alreadymadwithcadsstill
Wortmauer @187
Totally agree with you, and I couldn't have put it better myself. This Aes Sedai habit of walking right after being announced is actually a breach of protocol. Anybody else would ask to be announced, wait for the king, queen or high schmuck to give permission, then wait for the court functionary to usher them in. Aes Sedai skip everything but the first part, which always tends to grate. Particularly if you're a ruler with no small amount of channeling ability yourself.

As for not getting in to see the others. Cadsuane just couldn't browbeat the Aiel. See, she was able to get into that throneroom because wetlander protocol wouldn't dare stand in her way. Aiel protocol on the other hand....
Thomas Keith
189. insectoid
Wortmauer @187/AMW @188: Reminds me of Q in Star Trek: TNG, who almost always appears without warning. I think the power Aes Sedai wield goes to their heads a little... why else would they be so improper?

Actually... I can't recall Moiraine doing anything like that. She must be the only semi-respectful one of the lot! ;)

Less than 2 weeks to drop date...

Charlotte Ringer
190. LadyCharChar
Wortmauer@187 and AMW@188

I completely agree, Cadsuane is just outright rude. I understand that she is supposed to be 'legendary' in the eyes of other Aes Sedai but her own idea of self importance is completely obnoxious. As you both pointed out if someone barged into my house and ignored my questions I would be furious and have no manners or respect for that person has she never heard the expression treat people how you wish to be treated? If she wants repect from Rand she should earn in and vice versa, just because in your head you think that you are ultimately amazing does not mean that everyone does or in fact should believe it! Sorry for my rant, Cadsuane just really irritates me, she can be very brilliant with dealing with other arrogant obnoxious people but it strikes me very hypocritical that she lectures others for behaving like her. Oh sorry I forgot only Cadsuane can be amazing, im surprised with the size of that womans head that she can even fit through Throne room double doors! Grrr

She has respect for the Aiel for standing up to her but she expects Rand to roll over and let her tickle his tummy?

Wow, I guess I hadn't realised how much she irritates me!

Insectoid @ 189
Moiraine was one of the only Aes Sedai that I have actually felt respect for
Gregg Sivyer
191. Destroyer
Hi all, long time reader, new poster.

After starting my own re-read (again) for ToM, it has been such a pleasure to discover this re-read. I'm just starting CoT.

You all seem like old friends, especially the frequent flyers, as I have read through the threads from the start up to this post. It has been very interesting to see the disparate views expressed throughout these threads and see some of the issues that I had not appreciated from my own re-read.

For me, the biggest revelation has been how the events of tGS has altered my perception in relation to Sneaky Verin in my re-reads. Yes, she is awesome (and one of my favourite characters) but what did she have to do in the past due to her dark-side leanings to get to where she is now?

At least now that I've caught up, I'll be able to ask questions or comment knowing that there is some chance that it will be seen. I'm looking forward to it!

Sorry for the mini Wall-O-Text on my first post.
Tricia Irish
192. Tektonica
LadyCharChar@190: Well said. ;-)


Welcome! You actually made it through ALL the posts??? You deserve some kind of medal, or maybe a cocktail in the bunker.....welcome! Suffa.......... that you're here...keep posting!
Jonathan Levy
193. JonathanLevy
171. subwoofer
Maybe I'll buy her an Chinese Bond instead. Let's see... "Structured investment vehicle"... sounds pretty safe...

185. Hawkido
In Hebrew, at least, 'Eye' and 'Spring' have the same root, but 'Well' is different. (By 'Spring' I mean water-gushing-out-of-the-ground-Spring, not Summer/Winter/Autumn/Spring-Spring). Hence you have Ein Gedi (Goat's Spring) and Ayin tachat Ayin (an eye for an eye). 'Well' is a different root (Be'er). Hence Beersheva = Seven Wells.

191. Destroyer
Welcome aboard! If anyone asks you to "bring a cake to the bunker", just say "I'm working on some asping rot cookies". :)
194. hawkido
Jonathan Levy @ 193

Thanks for the correction on the hebrew... Been working on that language, however in Arabic "Ein" (same word, alot are the same words between aramaic, arabic, and hebrew, except seen's turn to sheens and a few other dialect twists) is both well and eye... yes there are other words for well also... but ein is the base and original word used as such simply because all springs were eventually turned into wells to prevent contamination. oher words would be more accurately translated into cistern or the like. Of the ancient languages I think i like hebrew the best, at lest anchient hebrew and paleo hebrew, as they seem to be the oldest.
Gregg Sivyer
195. Destroyer
Wetlandernw @ 121

Is it confirmed that Semirhage didn't attend at the cleansing because she was slaughtering the Seanchan family? I thought she had attended the cleansing even though we didn't get a POV from her.

EDIT: According to Encyclopaedia WOT, RJ is said to have stated in a Tor Q&A that Semirhage attended the cleansing (which I couldn't find), which makes sense to me since she would have got Mesaana's treatment if she hadn't followed Moridin's order.
Eric Hughes
196. CireNaes
as I have read through the threads from the start up to this post.

Impressive....most impressive. How long did that take you?
Daniel Hanley
197. Kythorian
To destroyer @ 195, it has been confirmed by RJ that Semirhage was at the cleansing. She just wasn't mentioned. RJ didn't want to turn the whole thing into a list of everyone who was there. So she, like the other forsaken, ran around hiding from lightning bolts and trying to throw some ineffective counter attacks. But she was definately there. mention this. I should finish reading comments before I respond. But yeah. The only forsaken not there were Mesaana and Moridin(who RJ said had an excuse, though he didn't go into what it was. Probably just an inability to do much because of his link with Rand)
Thomas Howard
198. didymos

Here's the quote:

Week 15 Question: At the risk of being RAFO'd: Mesaana was punished for ignoring her orders to go to stop Rand from cleansing Saidin. Was Semirhage also punished for ignoring orders, or did she have special exemption? (If you're going to RAFO us, consider giving us some other little tidbit instead?)

Robert Jordan Answers: Semirhage was present at Shadar Logoth, though not seen. You didn't see Graendal, either, though admittedly Moghedien thought of her, thinking it would be good if she or Cyndane died. If I always tried to show everyone who was present at a battle or the like, the books would be a LOT longer than they are now. And those battles would get rather boring, a list of names. Go down the checklist and make sure everyone gets mentioned. Boring. Anyway, Mesaana was the only one who tried to sit it out. By the way, Moridin also was not present, for reasons that will become self-evident as you read on.

Apparently, it slipped RJ's mind that we did see Graendal: Verin's circle tangles with her, and Verin specifically notes the streith gown (though she doesn't know that's what it is) and golden hair.

You can find the QOTWs various places, but this collection is the most convenient.
j p
199. sps49
subwoofer waaay back @92-

Am I wrong in believing those are ben-wa balls?

Wetlander @159-

Moiraine has been gone so long, it is easy to de-emphasize the bad and remember the good. Just like past military service :)
Moiraine did put it that way, which I had forgotten- but doesn't she also mention learning to dance to his tune?
The differences to me are just that Moiraine did learn better, and wasn't written to be abrasive like Cadsuane is.

CloudMist @167-
I'm not!


Re: "Uppity"- Clarence Thomas used the word 19 years ago. CNN just showed him use it in response to Anita Hill's accusations at his Supreme Court nomination (which is being discussed because hs wife is starting up with Anita via text(!)).


Blame katenepveu-

The killer of Asmo will be known,
will be known,
will be known.
The killer of Asmo will be known,
In Tee Oh Mmmmmm!

But please don't talk about the Glossary or anything here!
Thomas Keith
200. insectoid
Destroyer @191: Welcome! You read all of the posts? Bravo! Hopefully you didn't try to read all the comments... or did you? (If you did, you surely deserve an award!)

What's with the goofy new header?

edit: Oh... steampunk. Of course. How did I manage to get 2 hunny??

edit edit: Well, that's 800... here's to many more! (If last year's monster spoiler threads are any indication...)

Gregg Sivyer
201. Destroyer
CireNaes @ 196

I don't remember when I started, but probably about 3-4 months. I read the books on the bus to and from work and then read the re-caps and comments that night while my wife works. I generally got through two parts per night, although some times it was only one, depending on the number of posts and the length of the posts *waves at gun control debate*.

didymos @ 198

Thank you for that link.

various @ entire thread

I'm from Australia and I never knew that "uppity" had racial connotations. I always read that phrase as manipulation by Verin to try and bring Rand and Cadsuane together. It is interesting that Verin is also from Far Madding but does not appear (to me) to exhibit the same attitude towards men as Cadsuane.
Eric Hughes
202. CireNaes

Hmmmm...memory loss eh? Not uncommon after so much exposure. Your award awaits you in the bunker, insectoid has it...
Thomas Keith
203. insectoid
I do? Oh... yeah... of course I do! Excuse me for a moment...

::runs out of the bunker in search of an award::

204. Delafina
What it seems like a lot of people saying, "Huh, what? I never heard uppity used in a sexist/racist sense," are missing is that the very connotation of the word itself is pretty icky.

"Uppity" basically means that someone is acting like they have more rights/inherent status than they are entitled to based on their place in the social hierarchy. The closest synonym for "uppity" is probably "getting above oneself," which, again, assumes that there's a level one should be occupying. The fact that in the first page of google results, the people you see it applied to are women and African-Americans (most of which are ironic attempts to reclaim the terminology, like claiming "b*tch" as a positive word, and one of which is a news article about the word being a code-word someone applied to Obama) should tell you all you need to know.

The only way that I can imagine reading the word as nonoffensive is if you're actually okay with the idea of a social hierarchy -- i.e. the idea that some people have more inherent worth than others, whether because of their lineage, their gender, their wealth, their race, or their age.

I don't believe it's possible for me to get "uppity," because I don't believe that there's anyone out there whose inherent worth as a human being is greater (or for that matter, less) than mine. Someone can tell me I'm behaving arrogantly, and I accept that their opinion is valid even if I think they're wrong. "Arrogant" refers to the amount of help I think I need, what I think I know, etc., rather than my inherent worth. "Uppity," on the other hand, cannot help but imply that they believe I have a rung on some sort of latter of worth that I should be occupying.

I'm not even comfortable applying it to children, because while I believe that by virtue of having less experience with the world, less maturity, and less developed brains, children should generally do as adults tell them, I don't view children's disobedience as acting "above" an appropriate place on some ladder. Their position of required obedience is temporary and has nothing to do with who they are, but merely what stage of life they're in.

Returning to the context of the story, however, while "uppity" is a word that makes me question the motivations of the person using it, as others have pointed out, Cadsuane never actually uses it.

We get POVs from Cadsuane. They're not always flattering to her, but while we see her thinking that Rand is rude, or Rand is becoming too hard, or Rand is stubborn, or Rand doesn't understand something he needs to understand, these are all things one can plausibly think about an equal. We never, to the best of my recall, hear Cadsuane thinking Rand is getting above his appropriate station as a man.

And knowing retroactively that Verin is Black Ajah and is capable of doing unethical things to ultimately advance an ethical cause, it seems strange to blame Cadsuane for something Verin implies she thinks while throwing her under the bus.
Gregg Sivyer
205. Destroyer
Delafina @ 204

I'm chalking this up to another learning experience on this re-read, which is why it has been such an enjoyable experience.

I've always thought of "uppity" in the sense of someone "playing up" or "acting up" in the sense of them being naughty rather than as someone exceeding someone else's perception of their inherent social station in life. In fact, now that I think about it I'm GLAD that I've never defined or used uppity in that sense of the word.
Thomas Keith
206. insectoid
Okay, I'm back with an award!

::crickets chirping:: Hmm. Well anyway, here is one "Award For Blog-Reading Thoroughness" for Destroyer. Cheers!

::crickets still chirping:: Where'd everyone go? There isn't even anyone on the spoiler threads. Do I have the bunker to myself? Oh wait... Suffa is still here.

a a-p
207. lostinshadow
Welcome to the bunker Destroyer, and kudos for having read through all that!

Delafina@204 - you make a good point that uppity in and of itself a judgmental word, even if you don't connect it to any racist or sexist attitudes.

don't like the Far Madding chapters at all, so nothing really to say.

the discussion on Cads is like the energizer bunny - it goes o and on and on...
Cameron Tucker
208. Loialson
Insectoid @206
Never been to the bunker for one reason...Suffa....
I'm wondering if the bunker is all that fun lately with Suffa there...please tell me someone removed her larynx before bringing her, or better yet had Tuon(or Selucia, heh) pull a Thera on her?

Our own Suffa da'covale. I could live with that. :P

(btw, who invited her anyway, anyone remember?)

I got the PEACHES OF WOTDOOM pie on delivery to the bunker, enjoy!
Cameron Tucker
209. Loialson
Oh, and if ya'll didn't know yet, Terez transcribed all the free portions to date (even the audio, now wasn't that nice?) of ToM onto one dandy link

210. Wortmauer
theLIGHTONE@208: Who invited Suffa? What a strange question. You don't invite a damane. You buy, lease or borrow one. As well ask who invited the easy chairs.

S'redited to add: or the elephants.
Alice Arneson
211. Wetlandernw
Wortmauer @210 - Stop it! I really hate it when I snort tea up my nose. It's a waste of perfectly good Assam.

S'redited, indeed. I guess that would explain a few things around here...
Janet Hopkins
212. JanDSedai
re: S'redit

But nobody talks about the elephant in the room! And that would explain why we can't keep track of the peanuts to go with our beer.
Between the elephant and the peanut gallery throwing them all over the stage/discussion, even the fifty lb. bags go fast!

And, yes, I have been so desperate to keep reading WOT that I have read every one of the glossaries at least once.
Thomas Keith
213. insectoid
Wortmauer @210 et al: ROFL!!

11 days to drop date... and two great WH chapters coming mañana! (Or so I assume.)

James Hogan
214. Sonofthunder
Yeah, new post day!! You're right, insectoid...these are good chapters coming up...actually, some of my fav chapters from the whole series! *can't wait*

I started TGS a few nights ago for my final read before the big day. Surprisingly, it's going slowly - I've only read through Chapter 2! I need to really pick up the pace if I have a chance of finishing. Still though, it helps allay the twitching. Speaking of...

215. kixoka
Definition of uppity ... see Aes Sedai...
Daniel Smith
216. Smittyphi
Destroyer @ 201

I'm rather new here myself but I'm slightly jealous. I read the books last year but didn't find the reread until this year. It took me a couple of weeks to get through them, reading most of the posts as well (Gun control got a little crazy). I laughed out loud at some points and was glad I no one else was in my office at the time.

After ToM comes out, I will start from EotW and read the books and the reread together so I don't miss anything.

217. Ouroboros
Massive wall coming!

@ 62 sweetlilflower

She then answers Annoura and chastises Merana. Rand asks who she is and from what Ajah. She does not answer him. After two AS that he somewhat knows have had such an outrageous reaction to this unknown AS, of course Rand is going to be leery of her. It is at this point that she examines Narishma, most thoroughly I might add. Again, Rand asks her what she wants. Her response is, "So you are Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn. I'd have thought even a child like Moiraine could have taught you a few manners." This sentence is the first thing she says directly to Rand. It just gets worse, but I'll leave it to you to pull out your books and read through it again.

As you wish :)

(I'm only doing this to show you what my thoughts are on this. I'm really not trying to start a fight.)

Merana opened and closed her mouth, looking abashed of all things, and the tingling vanished abruptly. Rand did not release saidin, though, nor did the Asha’man.

“Who are you?” he demanded. “What Ajah?” Red, by Merana’s reaction, but for a Red sister simply to walk in like this, alone, would require suicidal courage. “What do you want?”

Rand isn't asking politely, he's demanding, and given that Rand often comes across as being pretty scary, it's a fair bet that he's quite a way from politeness. So, I don't think it's inappropriate for her to ignore him.

Without a word, Cadsuane swept across the room to the two Asha’man ... Dashiva stared her up and down, and sneered. Although looking him straight in the face, she did not seem to notice, any more than she appeared to notice Narishma’s hands on his sword when she put a finger under his chin, moving his head from side to side before he could jerk back.

“What lovely eyes,” she murmured. Narishma blinked uncertainly, and Dashiva’s sneer turned to a grin, but a nasty one that made his former smirk lighthearted in comparison.

I'll admit that I wouldn't want to be Narishma here, but given Rand's demands, and Dashiva's whole demeanor, I think it's important for Cadsuane to prove that she won't be intimidated by men who can channel.

“Do nothing,” Rand snapped. Dashiva had the gall to glower at him before sullenly pressing a fist to his chest in the salute the Asha’man used. “What do you want here, Cadsuane,” Rand went on. “Look at me, burn you!”

Now I may not be a diplomat, but I'm fairly sure that swearing at people is a pretty good way to set someone against you. The simple truth is that Rand has now become used to people doing what he says without argument, and he doesn't like being denied. Also, this is a bit of an over-reaction. Rand could have found a way to make his point without the bad language.

Yes, yes, I know that he's been very badly abused by the Aes Sedai, but if Rand was thinking clearly, he would have realized that, especially from the other sisters reactions, that Cadsuane is not a run-of-the-mill Aes Sedai.

She did, turning just her head. “So you are Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn. I’d have thought even a child like Moiraine could have taught you a few manners.”

I'd say this is fair play. The Maidens do a little hand talking, which everyone ignores.

Cadsuane ignored the byplay too, directing a smile to Berelain. “So this is your Berelain, Annoura. She is more beautiful than I had heard.” The curtsy she made, bowing her head, was quite deep, yet somehow without any suggestion of obeisance, no hint that she was in any way less. It truly was a courtesy, no more. “My Lady First of Mayene, I must speak with this young man, and I would retain your advisor. I’ve heard you have undertaken many duties here. I would not keep you from them.” It was as clear a dismissal as could be, short of holding the door open.

Okay, some people might say that this is stepping across the lines of protocol, but don't forget that all rulers consider themselves to be at most equal to Aes Sedai. We've had plenty of comments about what the relationship is; even the Lord Captain Commander would run to obey a summons by the Amerlyn Seat.

What I'm saying is that while Rand might think himself the highest authority in the land, not everyone else does - look at the Andorans for proof - so what Cadsuane does here is probably considered business as usual for everyone else.

Rand and Berelaine make a show of formal etiquette, in fact, Berelaine shows much more deference to Rand; I think she's trying to make a point to Cadsuane.

When the door closed behind Berelain, Cadsuane said, “It’s always good to see children play, don’t you think, Merana?” Merana goggled, head swiveling between Rand and the gray-haired sister. Annoura looked as though only willpower held her upright.

Again, Cadsuane is pointing out that she recognized the show for what it was. We're also now having Marana and Annoura's astonishment rammed down our throats.

... Is that a tea tray? I would like some, if it’s fresh, and hot.”

Channeling, Rand scooped up the tray ... He filled three, replaced the teapot and waited. It floated in midair, supported by saidin.

Three very different women in appearance, and three distinctly different reactions. Annoura looked at the tray much as one might a coiled viper, gave a tiny shake of her head, and took a small step back. Merana drew a deep breath and slowly picked up a cup with a hand that trembled slightly. Knowing a man could channel and being forced to see it were not at all the same. Cadsuane, though, took her cup and sniffed the vapors with a pleased smile. Nothing could tell her which of the three men had poured the tea, yet she looked across her cup straight at Rand, lounging with one leg over the arm over his chair. “That’s a good boy,” she said.

It's very hard not to see the floating of the tray around as anything other than an attempt to intimidate Cadsuane. Also, note Rand's arrogant posture: "lounging with one leg over the arm over his chair." So, once again, Cadsuane is making nothing more than what the military types would call a proportional response, whilst also showing that saidin doesn't frighten her anymore than the Asha'man do.

Rand quivered. No. She would not provoke him. For whatever reason, that was what she wanted, and she would not! “I will ask one more time,” he said. Strange, that his voice could be that cold; inside, he was hotter than the hottest fires of saidin. “What do you want? Answer, or leave. By the door or a window; your choice.”

I know it's childish to keep score here, but that might actually be the third strike. Either way, it's bloody rood, not to mention stupid. It must be obvious to a blind goat heard in Seleisin by now that this woman is not going to be intimidated. And Rand still hasn't stopped to think about why Marana was so certain that Cadsuane might actually be able to harm him.

All things considered, I don't think that anything Cadsuane says in the rest of this scene is unreasonable. She has to make it clear that she means business and that Rand cannot treat her in the same way he's been treating everyone else.

I’m not saying that Rand doesn’t have his own reasons for behaving as he is, but people will react according to how you act, and so Rand has brought a lot of this on himself.
Daniel Hanley
218. Kythorian
"Rand isn't asking politely, he's demanding, and given that Rand often comes across as being pretty scary, it's a fair bet that he's quite a way from politeness. So, I don't think it's inappropriate for her to ignore him."

Yes...he is demanding...and as someone pointed out earlier, how is it not reasonable to demand that someone at least identify themselves when they barge into your house and proceed to examine the place, ignoring you the whole time. I would say that yelling and even cursing is appropriate. Especially since she is refusing to even identify that she isn't Red(and seems like she probably is, given the reactions she is getting from those who do know her). So it would be like a random person walking into your living room with his hand tucked under his coat around a gun shaped object, and you demanding that they identify themselves, explain themselves, and show you their hands, or you are going to point your gun at them. He isn't even pointing at this point, just making the intruder aware that he has his own gun in case it becomes needed. Then the intruder tries to make a point that they are not intimidated by absolutely ignoring all of this, so you yell some more. Hell, if I was Rand, I would have already thrown her out the window by now.

How is Rand the impolite one in all of this? His reactions seem very reasonable given the insanity of what SWMNBN is doing.
219. Ouroboros
@ 67 Jonathan Levy

Sorilea has already proven herself. She is the big cheese of all the Wise Ones and extremely old to boot. Rand is just a kid who has left a path of destruction a mile wide behind him.
Daniel Smith
220. Smittyphi
I read the first SWMNBN debate and it was the cause of my partial migraine at the time but I agree with Kythorian@ 218

Everybody knows who he is but some random Aes Sedai who wanders in and causes ALL other Aes Sedai to pratically faint would make me nervous in light of the Dumai's Well. A proper introduction by SWMNBN to Rand and then a show of non-intimidation and a clear purpose of her actions would've at least put some of the tension to a slightly containable level. But SWMNBN has Far Madding-itis
Alice Arneson
221. Wetlandernw
Ouroboros @217 - Well played, my friend! ::applause:: Nice analysis. And I agree.

(Then the really funny one comes a month later when he tries yet again to intimidate her (slow learner in some cases, our Rand), taking along his Asha'man, announcing all his titles, even doing "intimidation weaves" and she just looks at him. And Damer Flinn is trying so hard not to laugh. At least someone has figured out by now that trying to intimidate her is childish. And at least Rand finally seems to catch on when it all falls flat.)
Alice Arneson
222. Wetlandernw
Kythorian @218 - The analogy to your living room is ... flawed, at best. This is not Rand's living room. It's not his home. This is the Sun Palace, and it belongs to the nation of Cairhien. Rand has not even claimed the throne here. The Sun Palace is not Rand's property, any more than it is Dobraine's, or Colavaere's, or Moiraine's, or Rhuarc's, or Berelain's. In point of fact, those first three have a much more valid claim on it than Rand.

If you want a slightly more accurate analogy, a bunch of people are meeting in a hotel conference center, called together by Rand, who has made this particular hotel his local headquarters. Over the course of the morning, several people have walked into the meeting, knowing they would find Rand here. This one has the misfortune (?) to be an unknown to several of those in attendance, and regarded with awe and some fear by others. For the rest of it, see Ouroboros @217.
Franz Antonio
223. Nazgul86
Now that's truly massive! :-)

I really must congratulate Destroyer for going through this one and more.

Rob Munnelly
224. RobMRobM
Wet - I usually agree with you on Cads but not on this one. I like the 218 analog. She might be attacking him at any point and she won't identify herself. She is acting obnoxious and implicitly threatening as a tactic to test his steel his steel, which is her prerogative, but I'm not going to criticize Rand for responding in anger. His anger and behavior is fully reasonable here -- perhaps not so much later once it is clear to all she has no plans to physically attack him.
Lucas Vollmer
225. aspeo
I agree that Rand showed some incredible restraint when he first met Cadsuane, and Kythorian@218 gave a very good example of why that is. Cads may have dealt with many male channelers, and humbled some rulers, but Rand is an extremely powerful channeler a ruler of men and a product of prophecy. He is everything Cads has ever dealt with and much more all in one tragic young man.

On the other hand, I didn't have a problem with her wanting to come in and show Rand that she wasn't intimidated, but her continued disrespect of treating him like a spoiled child is hard for me to understand. How can she really think that she could get anywhere with him by continously trying to piss him off? I understand that Rand needs to know that he can't just bully everyone around him into doing what he wants, but I just can't agree with her approach.

Don't get me wrong, for the most part I actually think Cadsuane is a pretty good character, and when she's not dealing with Rand I enjoy reading her sections. This is why I think it gets me so upset to read her interactions with Rand because it just seems like they should be going so differently!

Even if we go with the idea Rand is in a hotel conference center instead of his living room, Kythorian's analogy still holds up the same for me. We have to remember that Rand was the leader of the group that had liberated Cairhien from the attacking Aiel. Whether he has a claim to rule or not, Rand is the one that the people are going to look towards to lead them. This still leads to the fact that anyone coming to see him should be properly introduced before they can come in and potentially cause a huge problem. (Like killing/stilling the dragon reborn!)

Maybe I just see Rand through rose-colored glasses, and because of that I see can only see Cadsuane's actions as being more detrimental than his are...

To sum up, I like Cadsuane but I don't like the way she treats Rand.

Sorry for letting that evolve into a Wall'o'text :)
Grainne McGuire
226. helen79
@216, @201

Very helpful re-read - thanks to all for insights. I first read books in 1994 and only read each one once, so really was quite lost in the later books. So much so, that I would go the WOTFAQ and wonder where some of the questions came from, let alone the answers, particularly for LoC onwards. It all makes a lot more sense now.

Rereading since January, caught up on the posts in September, but skipped the gum control thread and gave up about 1/3 way into the whole spanking debacle and thereafter skipped discussions of sp***king. Obviously lacking stamina...
Daniel Hanley
227. Kythorian
To wetlandernw @ 222, I disagree that the Sun Palace isn't his building. The fact that he has not actually claimed the crown is effectively meaningless. He has taken over all of the functions of government for the time being, he does sit in the throne, and everyone works for him. He mediates political disputes, distributes food to the people, manages the military to protect the people. He is the government. You can say he stole the Sun Palace from its rightful owners if you want, but since Rand is acting as a dictator at the moment, that doesn't really matter. Effectively, whatever Rand claims is his unless someone is willing to argue with him over it, which no one is in Cairhien.

And the fact that he plans on giving the throne to Elayne just further stresses the point that it is his to give. The nobles accept him as ruler, the people accept him as ruler...the military certainly absolutely supports him. Actually calling himself king is just a technicality, and one he could have taken at any point if he wanted it. The fact that this claim is made by force of military strength doesn't make it any less valid in a fuedal society. Claims of blood only matter so far as they motivate people to support you as monarch.

The sun throne belongs to the nation of cairhien, and the nation of cairhien belongs to Rand until he gives it up.

I'm not arguing that Cads is evil and needs to die or anything like that. I am of the opinion that she is a mostly good character, she is just somewhat annoying and should have gone about things very differently. But more importantly for this argument, that Rand is pretty much justified in how he acts towards her, at least innitially, which unfortunately formed both of their first impressions of eachother.
228. Ouroboros
"how is it not reasonable to demand that someone at least identify themselves when they barge into your house and proceed to examine the place, ignoring you the whole time."

She did identify herself.

The door opened again for Riallin. “An Aes Sedai has come to see the Car’a’carn.” She managed to sound cold and uncertain at the same time. “Her name is Cadsuane Melaidhrin.”

So, she gave her name to the door guards and was announced. Rand didn't even need to ask for her name since he already knew it.

As for her barging in, yes, it would have been more polite to wait for permission, but everyone barges in on him, from Egwene, Moiraine, and Aviendha, to the Wise Ones and the Clan Chiefs; sometimes when he's in the bath! If your excuse for Rand's behaviore is that Cadsuane didn't wait for his permission to enter, then he now has the right to be rood to half of his followers.

She only starts ignoring Rand because he makes his demands. And Rand doesn't wait long before making them. Cadsuane enters, Annoura says "I thought you were dead," and Merana runs forward screaming "no cadsuane, you mustn't harm him."

Of course, she could have ignored Annoura and Merana, but that could have resulted in Merana doing something stupid; it would also have been rood. She could also have turned round and said "well, I'm clearly not dead Annoura, don't be an idiot. Merana, shut up and grow up. Release the source." In stead, she diplomatically chides Annoura, and settles Merana down, defusing what could have been a disasterous misunderstanding. Rand then plows in with his demands.

As for your gun annalogy, Rand is clearly not frightened by Cadsuane's "gun".

The woman was deliberately trying to provoke him. The question was, why provoke a man she must know could still her, or kill her, without exerting himself?

He has two Asha'man, one oath sworn Aes Sedai, another who advises Berelaine, and a whole squad of Maidens. So, I fail to see how his initial roodness can be justified by fear.
Rob Munnelly
229. RobMRobM
Ouro- since Cads had her ter'angreal that melted weaves, she probably could have killed him. And there is always the speed factor - if she struck unexpectedly and fast, she might have gotten through and killed or hurt him. Given Reds and their inclinations and her refusal to respond, he plainly has cause for concern.

Eric Hughes
230. CireNaes
Gum control. Now there's something I can get behind. Singapore FTW!!!
And bloody rood indeed. Substitutionary atonement at its best.
Eric Hughes
231. CireNaes

If Rand was not holding the source when she came in then she might have had a shot. But LTT has always shown up in quick response scenarios and saved Rand's bacon. I don't think it would have been any different here if she had attacked.
232. tesla_sunburn
Cadsuane is just rude for that entire scene.  BEFORE Rand does anything.   Come now they both acted poorly to each other on first meeting and it has hamstringed the relationship.  It certainly was all or primarily Rand.
Kat Blom
233. pro_star
Remove the asperatame from sugar free gum and all will be joy and sunshine!!!
RobMRobM - have we figured out if Cads' ter'angreal is like Mat's, in that direct weaves will unravel, but indirect weaves (throwing objects) will still work? How rude that someone hasn't tested HERS yet, although poor Mat had horse apples thrown at him at some point....
234. tesla_sunburn
Correction.  It certainly wasn't all or primarily Rand
235. whoami
Okay, it seems we have people here arguing that Cadsuane needed to storm in and put Rand in his place due to his arrogance, and others think Cadsuane's rudeness is over the top. Let's posit this scene, from Cadsuane (understanding that in the WOT universe, it could NEVER happen...communication, you know).


I am Cadsuane Melaihdrin. It is true that I am known for capturing male channelers and bringing them to the Tower to be gentled. I have no interest in bringing you to the Tower, gentling you, or harming you in any way.

But, given my experience with men who can channel, I know what you are going through." (meaningful look).

"I have more experience with male channellers than any other Aes Sedai alive, and I have more experience with rulers and nations, as well. I do not serve the Tower. I serve the Light.

I can help, and you need my experience."
236. birgit
(Then the really funny one comes a month later when he tries yet again to intimidate her (slow learner in some cases, our Rand), taking along his Asha'man, announcing all his titles, even doing "intimidation weaves" and she just looks at him.

It was Dashiva who did the weave, but Rand didn't stop him. The Forsaken probably wanted to make relations between Rand and AS more difficult.
237. alreadymadwithmindgames
Ouroboros @217
Nice blow by blow account. But I've got comments. Andoran nobles might need to be shown the gun to acknowledge Rand as the highest law in Andor, but Rand never actually required them to swear Oaths of fealty to him. Cairhienin nobles, however, did swear. That makes Cairhien his vassal state. So he is actually the highest law in the land of Cairhien.

Also, Rand might have been abrupt with Cadsuane, but all this is in the knowledge that Cadsuane walked in there for his benefit. That whatever Cadsuane might say or do, she walked in there to see him. He might have been rude, but he was also showing Cadsuane that her goal is right there on the throne. And to stop misdirecting him by being condescending to everyone. That she should either get down to business or leave.

And why exactly was it necessary to insult Rand? Show that she was not intimidated may be. But go so far as to unhinge him? That was uncalled for. You'd think she wanted to be Queen of Cairhien the way she behaved in that throne room.

They were both playing mindgames with each other. And Rand unfortunately blinked first.

Wetlander @222
That's semantics. The Sun Palace may belong to the people of Cairhien. But you might also argue that Cairhien at the moment, belongs to Rand. The Sun Palace is Rand's official residence and headquarters in Cairhien. Cairhien's nobles all swore oaths of fealty to him. Its people look to him for food and security.

CiraNaes @231
Agreed. Rand only fights LTT for control when he has time to worry about it. In quick split second emergencies he usually just goes with the flow. That said, if Cadsuane had managed to rouse the Dragon, her ter'angreal would not have been able to help her. Skill will even the score.
Chris R
238. up2stuff
My take...
Cadsuane was playing mindgames as a test as alreadymad stated. She knew walking in to tht meeting she wanted to test him. She had this all planned out, not a knee-jerk reaction to his manners.

I dont care if he was hosting a meeting in a throne room, or a port-a-potty, he was the accepted leader in that scene. She was the rude one for not extending any kind acknowledgement to him. "By your leave" or "What are you doing, boy?" Either would have been more RESPECTFUL than just blowing him off.

Ask me, Cads is the rude one.
Alice Arneson
239. Wetlandernw
RobM @224 - Huh? I didn't say anything at all about Cadsuane's behavior today. All I said was that an audience chamber (where he's been meeting with all manner of people, both invited and not) is not at all the same thing as your private living room.

Kythorian @227 - "Effectively, whatever Rand claims is his unless someone is willing to argue with him over it, which no one is in Cairhien."

I find that statement absolutely hilarious. First you say that Cadsuane has no right to treat him as anything less than King, and then you say that the Palace is his because no one is willing to argue with him over it. Circular reasoning, much?

RobM @229 - Rand would only have "cause for concern" if he knew that Cadsuane possessed ter'angreal which could melt his weaves etc. In the quotation provided by Ouroboros @228, he clearly thought that he could "still her, or kill her, without exerting himself." He has no "concern" over what she can do to him. The fact that he can't, in fact, do either of those things no matter how he exerts himself, is completely irrelevant to this scene. The fact that she could start wrapping people in air and throwing them around the room and they couldn't do a thing about it is completely irrelevant to Rand's behavior, since he doesn't know. Her ter'angreal don't affect anyone's behavior but her own, because no one knows about them until Far Madding and the Cleansing.

whoami @235 - Two problems: One, the other Aes Sedai in the room had everyone completely freaked out before she had a chance to say anything. Two, do you honestly think Rand would have listened to her? Seriously?

birgit @236 - Yes, Dashiva did the intimidation weave; it was not strictly part of Rand's instructions but, as you say, Rand did not stop him. It looked very much as though Rand tried to make use of it, until he realized that it was having more effect on himself than on Cadsuane. I personally find Damer Flinn's reaction not only priceless, but very telling.
Daniel Hanley
240. Kythorian
To Wetlandernw @ 239, my point was simply that Rand did own the Sun Palace under the law as it stands in Cairhien. The fact that he was making the law at the time is irrelevent. I'm not saying its a great system, but its how things work in any society with absolute rulers. So in that society, the Sun Palace was Rands, and those who show up should explain themselves, or be ready to be tossed right back out. Or be yelled at.

I do agree that I don't think that rand was afraid of her, exactly. But just because you are not afraid of someone's threat doesn't mean that you are obligated to just let it go. You have every right to curse or yell at someone who is giving an implied threat in your property without any explaination of why they are there. I'm not saying that how Rand handled himself was the best way to go about it either, but I do think he was justified in his reaction based on what Cads was doing.

And I don't know if Rand would have listened to her if she had acted that way...I can almost guarantee it would have gone at least a little better than it did, though how much is hard to say. Certainly Rand wouldn't have welcomed her with open arms, given the low level of trust he has in any Aes Sedai at this point, but I don't think things would have gone downhill as quickly as they did if she had treated him like an adult. Not even like a king...just not a child would probably have been enough to base some sort of mostly non-combative relationship on.
Josh Matthews
241. jdm
I'm so excited for the endgame of this book.
242. mary781
As far as the whole calling someone "boy" thing....If you were a few hundred years older than someone, what would you call them? Just saying!
243. Darkfriend
Everyone seems to be avoiding discussing who wrote the Letter to Rand in Far Madding, if its obvious it just went over my head. Leigh did not even mention the possible author?
Sam Mickel
244. Samadai
It was Padan Fain who wrote the letter

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