Log In Using
Facebook
Twitter
Google

Your tor.com Acct
Tue
Sep 7 2010 1:25pm
The Wheel of Time: The Gathering Storm Open Spoilers Review

NOTE: Re-posted here for curious eyes is Leigh Butler's spoiler-full review of The Gathering Storm. We're working on smoothing out the original post so everyone can read the 3000+ comments. The discussion continues here.


Happy drop date, WOT fans!

Today marks the official U.S. release of the long-awaited twelfth novel in the Wheel of Time series, The Gathering Storm—the finest merchandise this side of the river Jordan, on sale today! Come on down, heh heh.

But you probably knew that. About time, eh?

Consequently, as promised, I have here my second and infinitely more spoiler-laden review of the book. This will also, coincidentally, provide you with a place on Tor.com to discuss your own spoilery thoughts and reactions to The Gathering Storm, because we love you and we want you to be happy.

So have at, but remember: please confine all spoilers for the new book to this post. There are many readers out there who for whatever reason are not able to obtain and read the novel on the day of release, so out of courtesy to them, please keep the spoilers concentrated in one easily-avoidable spot, mmkay? Thanks, y’all are rockalicious.

Also, this is obvious, but just for the record: There are GIANT, MASSIVE, BOOK-DESTROYING SPOILERS for The Gathering Storm under the cut. And you can bet that whatever I don’t spoil in the post, will get spoiled in the comments. Read at your own risk.

For what it’s worth, I strongly advise WOT readers to avoid this post until they have read the book. I know some of y’all have low willpower on this score, but I’m seriously telling you that you will miss out if you ruin the ending (and the middle, and all the other parts) for yourself before reading the actual book. Also, since I’m not going to be explicating the details of every last event I bring up, if you haven’t read the book first, some of the things I’m going to say may not make sense to you anyway, which is yet another reason to wait.

As someone with a terminal allergy to spoilers before the fact, that’s just my opinion, of course, and I ain’t your mama, but presumably you’re here because you semi-care about my opinions, so there you have one.

So, there’s all that. For those of you looking for a totally spoiler-free and yet also somehow-massively-verbose review of The Gathering Storm, go here. Honor to serve and alla that.

And now, having gotten all warnings, caveats, and stern remonstrances out of the way, click though to get to the meat. IF YOU DARE.

Just so you know, this is not going to be an exhaustive dissection of the book. For one thing, that would take too damn long, and second, I’m going to eventually be doing a very detailed recap of The Gathering Storm (henceforth abbreviated TGS) anyway, just like all the other books, so I have to save some gems of wisdom here.

*deep breath* Hokay. So, I guess the best way to go about this is to basically expand upon my little “list of scenes that made me react in some way” from the non-spoilered review, right? Right. It should be noted that several scenes fit several categories, so there will be some repetition in here.

It should also be noted that I’ve actually only done one complete read-through of TGS thus far, and that at Ludicrous Speed, so some of my memories have of necessity gone to plaid. I’m working on a second (much slower) read-through as I write this, but time constraints being what they are, I may not get to everything before this has to go up. We Shall See.

Anyway! The scenes. In the order I deem most coherent(ish):

Scene of partial *headdesk*ing: Was actually more of a “*headde*- wait. DAMMIT”, because it was when Cadsuane had her Moment of Awesome in besting Semirhage – and she did it with spanking.

*wibble*

That was ON PURPOSE, WASN’T IT, TEAM JORDAN. It’s a plot, I tell you. A PLOT AGAINST ME. I’m going to go curl up with a blankie now.

(Over-inflated sense of importance? Moi?)

Scenes that made me go “Aww”: When Siuan (finally!) bonded Bryne, and later on when he asked her to marry him. Aww. Their interaction in general in TGS was just sweet, which is something I don’t get to say too often about romantic relationships in WOT. Plus, one long-hanging prophecy down, whoo!

(As a side note, those Seanchan Black Ops kamikaze guys (I forget what they were called) really didn’t live up to their hype, did they?)

Scene that managed to profoundly irritate me at the exact same time I was going “HELLS, YES”: The (second) dinner scene in the Tower. Even as I was cheering Egwene’s verbal excoriation of Elaida, for it was unquestionably a Smackdown of Eloquent Awesomeness, I found it extremely difficult to believe Elaida wouldn’t have shut her up before she got more than two sentences into it. Plus, I have issues with Elaida’s character derailment, which sort of precedes TGS but really goes nuts here. I mean, she was always an incompetent martinet with delusions of grandeur, but in TGS (and especially in this scene) she’s practically twirling her moustaches and tying damsels to railroad tracks. Enh.

“Wait, what?” scenes: a number of them, really, including the manner in which Elaida was disposed of – not so much how she went (which was only appropriate, all things considered), but that we didn’t get to see her in the battle up to that point, at all. I don’t know, it was just kind of abrupt and “Oh, hey, we forgot all about her! Whoops, bye!” I just felt that as such a major antagonist, she sort of deserved a more detailed exit.

That being said, I devoutly hope that we will never ever see her again. If any part of Book 13 is concerned with mounting a rescue for her I may have to throw a tantrum.

Another “wait, what?” scene was the death of Sheriam. Though the scene in which she was exposed as Black Ajah was beyond awesome, I was like “That’s how Min’s viewing is fulfilled? Really?” I can’t decide if the viewing thing was clever or cheap, actually; it could really go either way. Of course, I may be a bit personally biased, as that whole thing torpedoed one of my favorite pet theories, that Sheriam was going to go down in a blaze of glory taking out Halima. Crap, I really liked that theory. Oh, well.

(Also, what, no thirteen on thirteen trick? Is that EVER going to come up? And Sheriam would have been so appropriate thematically for it! Man...)

And the big “wait, WHAT?” thing (but in a good way) was Rand channeling the True Power to escape Semirhage. Holy jumping Jehoshaphat, but I sure as hell never saw that coming. Not to mention, I believe the applicable category here is Very, Very Bad Things. Ai yi yi. Nothing Good Can Come Of This, y’all.

That scene is also the one that upset me so much I had to walk away for a while. This is my schizophrenic scene reaction, because while it was probably one of the most tension-filled and dramatic (i.e., well-done) scenes in the book, possibly in the series (certainly in the latter half of the series), I can’t say that I loved it. In fact I hated it, because it was so frickin’ terrible for Rand and Min. But you see the distinction: I didn’t hate it because it was awfully written, I hated it because it was as exactly as awful as it was supposed to be. So it was a great scene, but I hated it. Does that make any sense?

Speaking of which, Rand’s entire plot arc in TGS contains something of that schizoid reaction for me. I believe I am on record somewhere stating that I thought TPOD (Book 8, The Path of Daggers) marked Rand’s low point (both emotionally and in terms of my liking for the character); well, I was so, so very wrong, you guys. THIS was Rand’s low point, on both counts, and I was frankly shocked at what a terribly low low it was.

I’m not saying that it wasn’t necessary to have happened, storywise; if you view Rand as being the equivalent of an alcoholic (or anyone locked into a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior) who has to hit bottom before he can begin to climb back up again, it was totally necessary. And I’m not saying Rand didn’t have valid excuses either, like, oh, I dunno, the Head Evil Dude In Charge LEAKING INTO HIS BRAIN, but knowing all that did not make it any easier to read. I honestly kind of loathed Rand through 95% of his screen time, which, yeah, I’m really not happy to be made to dislike a protagonist so strongly. (In case you can’t tell, in general I am not a fan of antiheroes.)

Especially a character I had previously liked so much; Rand may not ever have been my absolute favorite character in WOT, but TPOD aside he was nearly always in the top five, and usually the top three. So while I’m sure his arc was probably very well done in a technical sense, I have a difficult time gaining enough objective space from my own extremely negative reaction in order to admit that.

This is what I was referring to as possible risks on Brandon’s part. Though obviously I know that Jordan outlined what was to happen in more than just a general sense, somehow the extremity of the depths to which Rand is sunk in TGS rings more to me of Sanderson’s demonstrated willingness to push the fantasy trope envelope (i.e. how horrible can we make the protagonist/hero/Messiah figure before he is riiight on the edge of irredeemable?) than Jordan’s more traditional adherence to, er, tradition.

Of course, I don’t know this is true for sure; I’m just guessing. Maybe this is exactly what Jordan planned all along and I have no idea what I’m talking about. But that’s the feeling I get, so there you have it.

(Aaand I now have a mental picture of Brandon chanting “How low! Can you go!” My brain, ladies and gentlemen.)

Whichever the case, Rand is the cause of both times I wanted to hurl the book across the room: once when he was reunited with Hurin, and when he finally reunited with (and then almost killed) his father Tam. (And a near third, when he offhandedly commented to Nynaeve that Lan’s death would “serve him well” or some such UTTER MORIDIN-LEAKING BULLSHIT. Gah.) Oh my God but I wanted to beat Rand senseless during these two scenes – actually more over the Hurin thing than Tam. Tam at least was sort of trying to provoke a reaction from Rand (if not remotely the one he got), and plus Rand was actually doing pretty okay with Tam – right up to where it all went to shit of course – but all poor adorable Hurin wanted was a kind word from “Lord Rand”. He was all so excited! And instead he got treated like dirt. Two, count ‘em TWO of the reunions I had been wishing and hoping for, and that’s how they go? GRRRRRR LEIGH SMASH.

Again, this is not me disparaging the scenes on their merits, so much as me expressing my feelings about what actually happened. Rand had better apologize to Hurin in the next book, is all I’m saying. Fortunately it looks like he might actually be in a headspace to do so, thanks to the ending.

And speaking of headspace: HAHAHAHAHA Lews Therin is gone. And in a way that STILL doesn’t definitively settle the “real or not real” question!!

Heh. Hah. HAH. HEE HOO HAH HAHAHA HAAAAAAH. I cannot figure out how I feel about that whole scene in general, but I tell you I chortled for like five minutes over the Lews Therin thing. I win again, Lews Therin! Except you don’t care, because you’re not here! HAH hee hee. You may all feel free to hate me now. Heh.

As to the end at large: I... really don’t know, you guys. I have to read it again. If I get to it before this goes up I may expand upon this, but otherwise I’ll let you guys argue about it, because I am well and truly divided. On the one hand I was like “THANK YOU JESUS, maybe Rand can stop being an asshole and I can like him again”, and on the other I was... feeling a bit anticlimactic about it all. I know it’s kind of insane to call a scene where basically Rand talks himself off the ledge of destroying the frickin’ world “anticlimactic”, but I think the operative word there is “talk”. I don’t know if this is unfair of me or not. Like I said, I’ll have to read it again.

Speaking of scenes that left me divided (not to mention stunned speechless): WHAT THE HELL, RAND, with the balefiring of an entire city. Or city-like compound, whatever. My reaction was seriously just, “Uh. So... wow, that... happened.” By all rights this should have infuriated me far more than the Hurin thing or the Tam thing, but I was just so shocked by it, I couldn’t even summon up any book-throwingness. Jeez.

Watch, I bet Graendal wasn’t even there, you guys. Yes, I know, the Compulsion on Whatshisname was gone, but you know the rules: we didn’t see a body! And on the one hand, if she wasn’t there, that makes what Rand did just that much worse; but on the other, if she was there, well, damn, because that means Graendal got an even lamer exit than Elaida did. We didn’t even get to see her! My reaction, she is torn!

Um, what else. Oh, right, the big one: my duly appointed Awesomely Awesome Scene of Awesomeness.

Which would be – Dah dah-dah DAH! – Verin’s Last Hour.

I’m sorry, I meant Verin’s Last Hour OF AWESOME.

I mean, come ON. That was frickin’ gorgeous, y’all. Seal, clapping like a. Oh, yeah.

I am so freaking vindicated in my love for Verin, you guys. For Indeed she did show herself to be the veritable Zen Master of Sneakiness to the very end, with the culmination of her Seventy-Year Project of Tying Up Like Fifty Plotlines In Twenty Pages. I ask you, what other WOT character has done so much for one fandom? NONE, that’s who, thank you, goodbye. Not to mention, she fooled EVERYONE – and that includes the readership at large!

Sure sure, there have always been those who believed she was Black, and I’m sure there were even a few out there who hit upon the exact Sidney Bristow Double Agent formula here (though now I’m picturing Verin in an electric blue rubber minidress, which is all kinds of wrong, and now you are too. You’re welcome), but I’m in a fair ex-WOTFAQ-editing position to say that the vast majority of the fandom never hit upon it. For we were most skillfully misled, you guys.

Most readers (including me) were of the opinion that she was not Black, but had removed the First Oath so that she could lie, with various iterations of Purple Ajah/Second Foundation Ajah/Very Old Verin Theory curlicues tacked on for effect. Read the FAQ article if you don’t believe me; the very fact that her article isn’t even in the “Black or not?” section speaks volumes.

We were so close to being right, but we weren’t, y’all. Not exactly. Because Verin (and Jordan) were just that sneaky. Too. Frickin. Brilliant. I sigh contentedly in their general direction!

So, yeah, I think it’s safe to say I hearted that scene. I will love it and hug it and squeeze it and call it George, oh yes. And I’ll fight any one of youse wiseguys what says different, see? Putemup, putemup!

(Okay, not really, because that means I would have to fight Jason Denzel, who I already know disagrees with me over which TGS Scene is Top Most Awesome. And, he’s a pretty nice guy, who also owns a fair amount of medieval weaponry, so I’ll let it go. JUST THIS ONCE.)

Incidentally, this is also one of the two scenes that made me choke up. Verin’s death was about as awesome a WOT character death as can well be imagined (certainly one of the most useful in, like, ever), but that made it even more upsetting that she had to go. I won’t lie, I had to get a tissue.

The other scene that made me tear up was, shockingly, the little vigil Faile and Co. held for their erstwhile protectors/propositioners while being held by the Shaido. Considering my virulent hatred for that entire plotline, getting mushy over Rolan et al was about the last damn thing I would have expected, and yet there I was. I don’t know, maybe it’s just that I’m more sensitized to expressions of grief than I used to be. Growing up sucks, sometimes.

Oh, yeah, which reminds me: Mat and Perrin were in this book.

And I can’t let a spoilerriffic review of TGS end without bringing up the Plot Arc of Total Awesomeness, only slightly eclipsed by Verin’s Hour of Awesome (which was really part of the arc anyway, so), which is of course the entire Battle for the White Tower.

Not just the actual battle part with the Seanchan, though that of course was beautifully done (excepting the lack of Elaida, natch), but the entire campaign Egwene wages from within to reunite the Tower, bring Elaida down, and finally at long-goddamn-last effect a Black Ajah Purge. Or, to put it another way, the awesomeness is encompassed by every single second Egwene is on screen. Basically, she rocked from start to finish, and as of this moment is in firm first place as my favorite (living) WOT character.

Our Ooh! Ooh! Girl is all grown up, y’all. I’m so proud! *sniffle*

And thank God she was there, y’all, because if the whole of TGS had been Mat and Perrin being irrelevant and Gawyn being an idiot and Rand being a giant city-balefiring jerk, I really would have thrown the book through the wall. On its merits, even.

But fortunately Team Jordan is savvy enough to figure out that we must leaven the sourness of bottom-hitting-avec-vague-promise-of-future triumph with the sweetness of actual triumph, and thus I am sated. At least until Book 13! In which Rand had better gain back his awesome, zallumsane.


Aaaand I’m spent. I know there’s tons I didn’t even get to, and I ended on kind of a weird note, but the madness must stop somewhere, and I’m sure you guys will be more than happy to lambaste my wrongness fill in the gaps in the comments.

(That’s how “lambaste” is spelled? Really? Huh.)

Anyway, we presume you have enjoyed your ride on TGS Spoiler Mountain, as we see you have managed to refrain from blowing up the planet theme park planet at the summit. Good on ya, Guvnor! Remain seated, please (Permanecer sentados, por favor) until the ride comes to a full stop. Then go forth, laugh, be fruitful, and multiply the comments! Peace out, G!


Leigh Butler is a writer and blogger for Tor.com, where she *headdesks* frequently for the amusement and edification of others, and also conducts a Re-read of the Wheel of Time series, which is currently completed through Book Six, Lord of Chaos. She currently lives in New York City, which is only appropriate.

70 comments
j p
1. sps49
Did you just balefire 3,000 comments? Boy, the Jedi are going to feel this one.
John Skotnik
2. ShooneSprings
Thanks for reposting this, I forgot to come back and re-read this after finishing the book. Oops... Thanks Tor!
Jack Diamond
3. violetdancer
Since all the other threads seem to have stalled, I'll pose a question here. Maybe someone will see it.
Does anyone recall where (chapter?) in 11 books there was a reunion between Egwene and Bela?
I keep thinking it was when Egwene arrived in Salidar, but I may be confusing that with the T'A'R Bela she rode there.
Jerald
4. Tzwolf
Wow, I think you summed up how I felt about this book perfectly. The only thing you skipped over was how in the heck Mat's little stay in the Twilight Zone town had anything at all to do with any other plot line. It just felt really non sequitor to me.

Great review. And yes Verin totally rocked.
Chris Lough
5. TorChris
@sps49 The original post and comments are still there, but the post doesn't load for a lot of folks due to the # of comments, so we've reposted the content for folks who want to brush up on the review as Towers of Midnight approaches.
Brandon D
6. Ishmayl
Though I disagree a bit about Egwene's awesomeness (personally, I'm in that weird camp that finds her to be quite a bit of a bully, and a little bit of, "No sister, you did not just compare your time in a tower jail cell to Rand being forced bent over in a box for two weeks, and end said recollection with a, 'Now I know how Rand must have felt.'"), most of your reactions were very similar to mine. I actually didn't find the ending too anticlimactic either - I foudn it appropriately done. Glad this was reposted, I was thinking about it a few days ago.
Megaduck
7. Megaduck
I'm rereading TGS and my favorite CMA is right after Rand uses the DO's power and escapes and then Cads walks in.

Yes, the potential corruption of the Messiah and the possible destruction of the entire world was totally worth the verbal smackdown that Rand gives her. CMA right there for Rand, he should have done that five books ago.

Then poor Cads demonstrates she STILL doesn't get it with her line, "Before she was working against a stubborn but basically good hearted boy..."

Gahhh! You FOOL! You should NEVER have been trying to work against Rand, your entire FailPlot was because you were working against him and he saw right through you and didn't really trust you. You should have been trying to work WITH the guy.

I hope she gives Rand a long overdue and very abject apology next book... sadly, I don't think she will.
Thomas Keith
8. insectoid
sps49 @1: LOL!! Well, as about half of those were either reports from signings, guesses referring to historical years, or otherwise mostly frivolous :P ... yeah, the Jedi'll feel that. ;)

Bzzz™.
James Jones
9. jamesedjones
7 Megaduck
I'm rereading TGS and my favorite CMA is right after Rand uses the DO's power and escapes and then Cads walks in.

I had no idea there was a County Music Award for that. No wonder Ronnie and Kix retired.
James Hogan
10. Sonofthunder
Hey, this is back! Good to see it again!

Except...now I really want to read TGS again. Thanks, Tor. Thanks a lot.

And yes, I just totally did read the whole review again. Leigh never fails to make me laugh.
Megaduck
11. Megaduck
jamesedjones @9

Crowning Moment of Awsome
:p
T C
12. Freelancer
insectoid @8

I represent those remarks. Not that an insane number of those "frivolous" comments were my own, no indeed...

Best line in the review? No contest:
(Aaand I now have a mental picture of Brandon chanting “How low! Can you go!” My brain, ladies and gentlemen.)

Thomas Keith
13. insectoid
Free @12: My apologies if I offended; you know perfectly well that we all had a good time being frivolous. (Of course, some time ago I made a copy of your signing report, so that won't get lost. :) )

Bzzz™.
Boquaz
14. boquaz
The scene I keep thinking about the most from TGS is the one with Rand and Tuon. Should I be happy? Tuon made a good decision, kind of. I can't blame her at least. But... why do the Seanchan have to be such bastards about everything?
Ben Kane
15. NerveAgent
The scene with Tuon and Rand was one of my favorites in TGS; I was glad to see someone finally standing up to the megalomaniacal and sociopathic tyrant that Rand has become (though I was none too pleased about her subsequent order to attack the White Tower). I wonder how Mat would react upon learning that his wife was almost balefired out of existence by his childhood friend...that is a confrontation I hope to see.
Daniel Hanley
16. dmhman749
I mostly agree...I loved every bit of the Egwene stuff as well. Its pretty shocking when I think back on it. Egwene was probably my third least liked character as of the end of book 10(only Gawyn and Faile beating her), but books 11 and 12 managed to completely turn around my opinion, but do so in a way that actually felt fairly natural. She seemed to grow into someone who was actually worthy of being Amyrlin. She still isn't my favorite character, but she is definately up there now(and yes, her equating her time in a cell to Rands time in a box being taken out to be tortured was annoying, but overall...). Hopefully we can see Rand grow into someone worthy of being the Dragon and leading the forces of the Light in the next book.
Sandy Brewer
17. ShaggyBella
The most emotional part of the book for me was when Rand and Nynaeve are talking, after she removed the compulsion from Kerb.
Rand says he doesn't have to climb back down the mountain, (the one no one ever climbed because it was too high & they could not get back down) so it doesn't matter if he is used up.
And that he does realize how hard he has become, because he must, and it is her job to care and to carry on afterwards. Also that Nynaeve was the only one who actually cares for him as a person, not just as the Dragon Reborn.

sniff, sniff

Hey, Thanks for reposting this.
WOT Madness takes it's toll.
Andrew Foss
18. alfoss1540
Just finished TGS 3 weeks ago (after starting and catching the reread 6 months late), and have started to reread EOTW. Wow WOW is worse than crack, heroine and nicotine combined!

I was most edge of my seat through all scenes with Mat/Tuon and Company. Masterfully written. At one point my wife almost had me committed for throwing the book after I thought they had left Mat for the final time - incomplete. At that point I was sure they would never get back to him.

Thanks for reposting your comments - I flipped when they were unavailable after I finised reading.

And Thanks Thanks for the Matterhorn ref. I question your conjugation, though I admit I was never able to figure out exactly how they were stating it from my Spanish English dictionary. And after riding the bobsleds over 100 times, I really started to wonder.

Looking forward to November 2!!!!!!!!!
Megaduck
19. Rand Al'Todd
Poor Galad!

In the hands of Asunawa, awaiting rescue by Perrin Cloak-bane!!!
john mullen
20. johntheirishmongol
I just finish a reread of Tgs saturday and its even more awesome when you delve into all the details. I think a big reveal is that info about callandor that is given out. Lot's of different interpretations possible, but my fave theory is that the three are women and that it will be the one's who are linked with Rand thru warder/love link so thats Elayne, Avienda and Min.

I sniffled a sniff when Verin died but also felt pride for her. Simply a superb character.

I had pulled out the book because Brandon was coming into town for a signing and I had this and his new one as hardbacks to sign. The last time I remember going to a signing was for Niven and Pournelle for Oath of Fealty and that was almost 30 years ago.

Can't wait for the new one to be out!
Tess Laird
21. thewindrose
Rand Al'Todd - Well, we know Galad is going to be ok since Rand Al'Thor:) sees Galad and Perrin together in a techno color moment. Beside, Galad's a Blademaster, and what - Asunawa has deep crazy eyes - Blademaster for the win!!

I can't beleive this is back. It will be fun to review the comments for this (do you think all 3 will be put together, or just the 2 and not the general thread) when that is put back together in readable form!

tempest™
Thomas Keith
22. insectoid
Wind @21: They might have to start a new website to showcase all 6000+ comments from all three threads—the WoT Blog Monster Thread Rally. ::snicker::

Bzzz™.
Megaduck
23. Hookedonweaves
lb@zero

"Not to mention, I believe the applicable category here is Very, Very Bad Things. Ai yi yi. Nothing Good Can Come Of This, y’all,"

Not necessarily! The DL sacrificed Semi in order to get Rand to use the True Power which being so addictive/corruptive would surely turn him……however Rand now has the ability to seal the DL’s prison which being made with the TP can only be resealed with it (anything else would be corrupted, e.g. the LTT “seals”) , after of course the LTT seals have been removed. Unfortunately Rand channeling all this TP to seal the DL in will totally corrupt Rand and he will in effect become the new DL or his avatar let loose in the world. At this instant Callandor wielded by Aliza and….....Umm, at this point things get a bit complicated, but I am sure RJ has an elegant solution.....

So many questions and so long to wait….
Daniel Hanley
24. dmhman749
There is no indication that the DO's prison is made with the TP. In fact, every indication seems to point towards the fact that the TP is the Dark One. Or a part of him, anyway. The bore was trying to reach the TP, and when it did, the DO came out.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the argument can't be made that the prison needs to be sealed with the TP, since that would prevent either side of the One Power from being tainted when it touches the DO. However, I'm not sure if I buy it. The TP has been regularly described as innately extremely destructive. Everything that it is used for seeks to destroy, even if that isn't the purpose you meant it for(killing that servant on accident comes to mind, but thats not the only time it has been described like that). I can't really see a force like that being an effective prison that is supposted to last through the ages.

But even more importantly, the DO has absolute authority over who can use the TP. You can argue that Rand is just accessing it through Moridin, rather than the DO actually having given him access to it, but I can't see the DO just sitting there allowing Rand to use the TP to close his prison, even if that is possible. I would think that the DO would just cut Moridin off from access if that is what is needed to prevent Rand from doing this.

I tend to agree that nothing good will come of the use of the TP by Rand. Harid Fel figured out (probably) at least the core of what was needed to seal the DO up, and it is unlikely he was even aware of the TP. I think there is another way which Min will re-figure out having nothing to do with the TP(though the TP will probably be important in the final book, especially if Moridin and Rand end up merging somehow, as has been suggested)
Marcus W
25. toryx
To date I've only read TGS once. I plan to read it again toward the end of October so it's fresh in my mind when ToM comes out. It'll be interesting to experience it again after so many months and conversation.
Mandy Jones
26. Ananda
Back when WOTmania was up, there was a theory that it wasn't the OP that would be used to reseal the DO's prison, it was the pattern itself. Didn't Moiraine say way back in TEOTW (sorry, I don't have my books on hand or I'd find an exact quote, but I believe it was in one of her sessions with Egwene) that the PATTERN itself was the DO's prison? If that's so, then it would explain the DO's encouragement of using balefire--tear apart the Pattern and Poof! he's free for good. It would also mean that Rand's sense of identity (which corresponds to the "strength" of his thread), and his ta'veren-ness (as the very definition is the ability to bend the Pattern to his will and/or needs)--and possibly the use of T'A'R, which is far more malleable than the "real" world--are way more important to TG than his ability to channel.
Personally, I agree with whoever came up with this. So much ado has been made of Rand's sense of being and the effects of being so strongly ta'veren for it to be a simple red herring or story-building element. I think comments such as Cadsuane's "his victory will be as dark as defeat" if he doesn't chill and remember who he once was (again, no reference...sorry ya'll) are pointing to the use of the Pattern versus the OP to reseal the DO away.
...Of course, there is merit in Rand "replacing" the DO as the new DO...Guess we'll just have to wait and see. *sigh*

Is it November yet? :s
Daniel Hanley
27. dmhman749
I don't remember that quote from Moiraine, but thats certainly possible. Though Im not sure how she would really know...none of the current Aes Sedai seem to really know much about the Dark One's prison. You would think that recording what was known about it during the war of power and passing that down, not to mention working out the philosophy behind how it might be fixed would have been a very high priority of the White Ajah...I mean, if Herid Fel can figure it out in a few months, you would think that the white Ajah could have worked it out over the past 3,000 years. That is really the only justification I can see for the existance of the White Ajah, for that matter.

-But regardless, I have read a theory about that which goes along these lines: The Ogier and the Tinkers and possibly the Aiel will sing the rediscovered song around Mt. Doom with the three ta'veren inside to re-grow the pattern over the bore. Or some such. My only problem is that it seems like this would have been attempted during the War of Power if it was possible. They had an entire people who knew the songs then, plenty of Ogier, and Green Men too. Maybe 1 ta'veren(LTT) wasn't enough to make this work? It also all seems a little hokey. But maybe. we will see. I am also having trouble waiting for ToM though...*sigh* I was fine for about 9 months, but once it started getting close and I started reading over the theory forums, etc to get familiar with the books again, i started really wanting to know what happens again.
Sandy Brewer
28. ShaggyBella
I am patiently waiting for the new book. TWITCH Well, I'm also planning to avoid the "Prediction Forum", the TOM Trailer, and the Prologue chapter when it becomes available.
I will see how that goes.
Thomas Keith
29. insectoid
ShaggyBella @28: Aw, you shouldn't avoid the trailer... It's not so much spoilery (which it really isn't) as it is squeeish! :P

Bzzz™.
Daniel Hanley
30. dmhman749
*nod* The trailer doesn't have any spoilers. Its just a quote from an earlier book to music. It is well done though.
Megaduck
31. up2stuff
Has it ever been stated flat out that LTT was ta'veren? It's kind of a "Duh, of course he is" I guess. But I can't ever remember the characters mentioning that, though there were a number of references to Artur Hawkwing and stuff. Not sure if it would make a difference, but I just kind of wondered.
Daniel Hanley
32. dmhman749
I seem to remember(but could be wrong) that at some point someone says something about Rand being the strongest Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing...maybe since Lews Therin Telamon himself. Or some such. I think. Its possible it was something along the lines of Rand being the strongest Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing, maybe even since the breaking, but even that implies LTT even if it doesn't specifically say it.

Regardless of any quotes, given the history we have, it seems pretty clear that the pattern centered on LTT for the War of Power, so it seems very, very likely.
Karen Fox
33. thepupxpert
Leigh - It was great to read these two posts together again! I'm about a third of the way into my re-read of TGS so timing on the new book is great! Just can't wait!
Scientist, Father
34. Silvertip
@9 JEJ:

Great ... gotta clean sprayed coffee off my monitor again ... good one!

S

p.s. We'll see about the "retirement." I went to Bob Seger's Absolute Last Concert Ever I'm Retiring Y'All at JLA in Detroit ... in 1985.
Tom Burton
35. Conky
And I just finished TGS a couple of hours ago. Wow! That was the most fun I've had reading WoT in a very long time. The only parts I didn't like were the Mat chapters. It didn't feel like Sanderson had Mat's voice right. It also felt like he completely changed Talmanes' character. Those chapters were overly goofy, but didn't make me laugh. It just felt like everything about them was completely wrong.

This of course was balanced with the awesome of Darth Rand, Verin, killing lots of Forsaken, and the fantastic story arc of fantasticness - The Fantastic Egwene. I was never an Egwene fan, and I actually started getting bored of her story line while she was with the rebels, but I've thoroughly enjoyed reading everything about her since she was captured. As much as I loved her in KoD, she was 10 times as cool in TGS. Egwene made this book.
Tess Laird
37. thewindrose
So if we decide to use this again, do we get to use knowledge from ToM Prologue(Distinctions) and chapter8, or should we just leave that to the spoiler thread for Distinctions?

tempest™
john massey
38. subwoofer
?

Are we here ?

::Tap, tap::

Is this thing on? Can you hear me now?

I brought the 7-layer dip...

Woof™.
john massey
39. subwoofer
Ahhhhhhhhh-@Wind- well, this is a spoiler thread- the disclaimer for WHpt20 says no spoilers there and schtuff, so I don't see anything wrong with this- unless we go over to the other spoiler thread, which is for ch8& the prologue, but I dunno. I am not picky. I don't see why we cannay let stuff rip here... after all, I did bring the bowl of the winds;P

Woof™.
Tricia Irish
40. Tektonica
Hi Wind and Sub....thanks for bringing the windy bowl, Sub....I think......I'm just glad we don't have smellavision.

Anyway....maybe....I'm suggesting....that this could just be a dissection of tGS in prep for ToM. Personally, I've read it all, so I don't care what Spoilers are discussed. I'm one of the people that often reads the ending of a book before I finish it too, so *shrug*...I care not. I'm just fuzzy on tGS, as it was a year ago, and the reread has taken me back in time, although we certainly discuss all the books there.

I've got about 100 pgs to go in the next Malazan book and then I'll be at tGS with a vengence. I need another read....
Tess Laird
41. thewindrose
Well, if the Bowl of Winds is here...
I have started to do a reread of tGS, and I finding some good morsels that must not have sunk in the first time. I don't know why I waited so long to reread it! Maybe because we know the end is on the horizon.

Let's see jow many threads we can juggle:)

tempest™
john massey
42. subwoofer
Let's see jow many threads we can juggle:)


And then somebody can toss in an axe or a chain saw:)
Yes, it has been eons since I have read tGS but I am only on CoT right now so I am doing things sequentially. Alls I gots to say about tGS is that Rand has much to make up for. There had better be a reunion scene where Rand says "sorry dad, I was wearing Min's underwear, it made me irritable". I don't know if Rand can use the same excuse twice, but he better say something to Hurin too.

*Sigh*

Maybe Rand goes back and Travels the Borderland army to where they belong and in the process, makes ammends for being a dip stick.

More to rant on but this is my start.

Woof™.
john massey
43. subwoofer
Was reading the FAQ about Verin- how did she Delve the crazy Ogier who lost his mind staying out too long if she was in a Stedding and could not touch the Source?

Or... to put it differently- can Verin touch the True Power?

We have been kicking a cat around on the other thread in terms of who Verin shows how to make a gateway and who does or doesn't see the weave. What if Verin was just powerful enough to actually make a gateway but the three ladies do not see the weaves because Verin did it with the True Power?

Woof™.
Daniel Hanley
44. dmhman749
I'm pretty sure that this from Leigh's review of ToM is about Rand:
“Okay, that may or may not have been quite a Crowning Moment of Awesome for _____, exactly, but that is unquestionably one of the coolest things that has ever happened in this series. All is forgiven, man.”
So hopefully we will see Rand make up for some of the asshole moves he made in tGS. Though that could be about Perrin.

I am pretty sure that the whole getting the Borderland army back to the borderlands is going to be more complicated than just showing up again and opening a Gateway back (regardless of if Demandred is there or not). There was just way too much of a buildup for it to end up like that.

But anyway, are we just going to go through this chapter by chapter, or what?\

To subwoofer @ 43, I'm pretty sure it was stated in an interview at some point that Verin had a well. And since so few of the Forsaken are allowed access to the TP atm, it seems very, very unlikely that Verin can.
john massey
45. subwoofer
Really? Did she? A Well? Well.

How come this was not mentioned or used when Caddy was trying to free Rand from Far Madding? When Sneaky Verin was being... sneaky and all "call me Ishmael" and schtuff. I dunno, I am keeping that door open as in 70 years of sneakiness, maybe Verin earned "Hero of the Horn" cred by sneaking one over on the DO.

Woof™.
john massey
46. subwoofer
As for the moment of either Seal clapping or all is forgiven, I am still going with some kinda Travelling. Now whether that is Rand getting the Borderland armies where they need to be making ammends or something else, I think there are 200 000 troops milling around for a very specific reason.

Maybe some Travelling genius, like Nynaeve, sees her husband in desperate times and comes to his rescue a la the Riders of Rohan. There is a huge whack of Travelling and the Borderland armies, Mat's Band of the rouge Hand and the Tower Guard come to Lan's rescue as the Hordes of the Dark descend upon Lan in his Last Stand. I just see that as the greatest MOMENT OF AWESOMENESS EVER.

Everything is leading up to it. Lan is there. There are armies forming but they are scattered all over the land and it may be a case of Lan, his friend Bulen and a pea shooter vs. the Dark Hordes. If something even comes close to this, I may make a vid of seal clapping and post it just because it is worth is. Heck. I am getting chills just thinking about it.

Edit- was, am, and always will be in awe of the power of Armored Cavalry.

Woof™.
T C
47. Freelancer
Verin did not delve Trayal at Stedding Tsofu. She did not employ a well (not proof that she doesn't have one). Jordan said at signings that detecting a soul's presence in a body does not require channeling (else how would the Ogier, unable to channel, have known what Verin would sense?), and that anyone would have recognized Trayal's "emptiness".
T C
48. Freelancer
Band of the rouge Hand? Does that make Mat the Rouge Rogue? The Red Rascal? The Crimson Cretin? The Scarlet Pimpernel?
john massey
49. subwoofer
@Free- from Leighs own mouth... er, fingers:

VERINISM: Verin and the art of Stedding Channeling: in [TGH: 29, Among
the Elders, 435], she inspects an Ogier who lost his mind to Machin Shin in
the Ways. For all intents and purposes, it looks like she's Delving him
with the OP. However, she is in a stedding, where touching the OP is
impossible. Even more, nobody thinks this is weird!


EXPLANATION: At a post-ACOS signing [Vancouver, 24 August, 1996], RJ told
Lara Beaton that "we're going to find out something in the next few books
about people without souls and characteristics of them. (he started out
saying that we're going to find out something significant about Verin, then
stopped)." After Perrin's too-long sojourn in the wolf dream in WH, we
learn that Aes Sedai are apparently familiar with these characteristics.
Berelain, to Perrin: "'You slept like a man already dead. [Annoura] said
you almost felt like someone who had lost his soul, cold no matter how many
blankets were piled on you. I felt it, as well, when I touched you'" [WH:
5, Flags, 145]. So evidently, anyone who knows what they're looking for can
tell when the soul is gone from a body, and Verin's examination of the
Ogier in the stedding didn't have to involve channeling at all.


Verin could also have used a Well, per WH. Though a rather ex post facto
solution to the discrepancy (and superfluous, given the above about
soulless bodies), we now know that channeling is possible in a stedding.
We have no evidence, however, that Verin actually possesses a Well, though
if she did it would be interesting to speculate on how that relates to her
arrest warrant in Far Madding...

- so yes, you may be right, but there are also other possibilities:) We will see. Nothing was definitely said about such things tho'.

Woof™.
john massey
51. subwoofer
Yes, well, the Lord Crimson thing really bugged me and I always liked Daffy playing the Scarlet Pimpernel;)

Woof™.
Tess Laird
53. thewindrose
So the Prologue(What The Storm Means) has 6 PoV's and a Header for tGS(we could also go into the similarites of this on to ToM?)

The Header is from the Journal of the 'UnKnown Scholar'. Could this be Min? If so, it is sad that she doesn't get name recognition.

The 6 PoV's are in order: Renald Fanwar(Borderlander), Falendre(Sul'dam), Tylee Khirgan(Lieutenant General of the Seanchen and of the Low Blood now, Graendal!(Forsaken) who I think we need to suss out more for sure!, Rodel Ituralde (One of Randlands Great Generals) and Masema Dagar(The Prophet).

In all the Prologue for tGS is telling me that TG is almost here. The UnKnown Scholar crys for it to begin(Min tells Rand that she has figured out some of what Herid Fel had deduced - Rand must break the remaining Seals.
Renwar heads to war - it must be done. Duty is heavier then a mountain, Death lighter than a feather.
Falendre - Rand orders her to tell the DotNM he wishes to meet
Tylee's unit is attacted by Trollocs - she also meets with Tuon later and sugests to Tuon that the Seanchen should join with the Randlander instead of fight them(So there is some good of what Perrin did!
Graendal - is shown here to have favor from the DO and as events have progressed she is someone we really need to review in detail
Rodel Ituralde - Is giving the Seanchen a run for their money, how is he going to play out?
Masema Dagar - Yes he buys the farm, but there are still some mysteries to solve here - Who is playing the shiny Dragon:)
And if we decide to compare to the prologue to Distinctions the mind just boggles!!!

tempest™
Daniel Hanley
54. dmhman749
Ah...well, i guess i was wrong about reading about Verin having a well...Can't remember what I was reading that made me think that. Oh well. Anyway on to the Prologue.

Not a whole lot to say here. The Graendal stuff is indeed interesting. For the question of who played the shiny Dragon, there was a post on theoryland about this recently. I lean towards Mogy, or possibly Cyndane. Apparently Bandon said that the soul of whoever played the shiny Dragon was female, which eliminates Demandred, who seemed to be the most common person put forward.
Tina A
55. Tinaa
~typing with squinty eyes, so as not to see the writing above...~

So, are there going to be ToM spoilers here? If so, I'll be off, and see you all over on 20...
Rob Munnelly
56. RobMRobM
@55 - ditto. I've not read the ToM prologue so will run for my life to nonspoiler threads. Tata. Rob
James Jones
57. jamesedjones
53 thewindrose
Graendal - is shown here to have favor from the DO and as events have progressed she is someone we really need to review in detail

Is there a TV trope anywhere that names and evaluates the rule that you can't kill the sexy villainess? She's smart and sexy, so you can't kill her. I'm reminded of the Dragonlance villainess that kills the uber-righteous palladin. Sorus Chatelaine (who kills herself, but is never bested by the guy who's obsessed with her) is another great example of the smart, sexy, unbeatable female foil.
john massey
58. subwoofer
@Tinaa & Rob, well shucks, at some point some of us need to be able to talk about spoilers- we did choose yes, and so here we are:)

As for the rest- what if Logain or somebody else is finally thrust into the fore and does the Scouring of the Black Tower or some such. There is something that is very much looming on the horizon methinks. Rand may finally learn to trust another male channeler and he gets hurt again-badly and then Flinn brings him back and Heals the missing pieces. This may qualify for the Seal clapping and the Oh NO! part.

@JeJ- maybe you were thinking of Jessica Rabbit.

There would be an image inserted here but apparently, that is no longer possible. Torie- Help!

Woof™.
john massey
59. subwoofer
Edit- well, craa-ackers and cheese! That didn't work, and due to the wonders of this new format, I can't even edit it to undo it. It was a good picture too.

Woof™.
john massey
60. subwoofer
Hi Torie:) I stand corrected, it is post 59- look up where is that dang upward arrow thingy to see the fun I am having.

wah.

Woof™.
Thomas Keith
61. insectoid
Don't tell me there's a separate bunker for Spoilers? At least I'm out of the random thunder and rain. (Strange weather all of a sudden!)

Sub @51: Free is right... he was the Scarlet Pu-Pu-Pumpernickel. ;)

Wind @53: Nice analysis!

Sub @58-60: Aw... that would've been very appropriate. :p

Bzzz™.
Tess Laird
62. thewindrose
Hi subwoofer and Torie too! The icon for adding an image is actually gone from my comment box - and I still have the linking problem.

jamesedjones - it would seem you have chosen to do the reserch on Graendal;)

But it is interesting that in the first prologue she get to watch Demandred and Mesaana as a reward and in the second prologue she has use of a little TP.

tempest™
Thomas Keith
63. insectoid
Wind @62: You should send Irene a shout—it seems she's in charge of collecting comment box feedback.

There's that thunder again... spooky.

Bzzz™.
Tess Laird
64. thewindrose
insectoid - Are the clouds black with some silver? When you look at them are they right above you one moment and leagues away the next?

Thanks for the tip on the comment box - I miss linking and imaging:)

temest™
Thomas Keith
65. insectoid
Wind @64: Light, I hope not! *rumble*

::looks outside:: O.o

They are coming...

Bzzz™.
Thomas Keith
67. insectoid
Sub @66: "I'm too important to be captured"... LOL!! Gotta love the Flintstones.

Bzzz™.
T C
68. Freelancer
Since it was brought up, today was the 50th anniversary of the original release of a Flintstones cartoon.

Yes, by five days, I'm older than the "prehistoric" Fred Flintstone. Your point? But that isn't all that I shared with that cartoon. Pop quiz, what real life city is referred to by the name of the hometown of that favorite stoneage family?
john massey
70. subwoofer
Bedrock?

I dunno Free- what else would you have in common with a "prehistoric" family? Ohhhhh the possibilities are endless;)

Yeah, I love the Flintstones. It is only as I have gotten older myself that I appreciate some of the jokes. Way ahead of its time.

Anyone wanna talk about the chances of healing Rand's hand. I know we have batted around the idea that Rand inherits a new body, but I am not feeling it. I am thinking that at some point here, Rand is going to stumble through a doorway or something and undergo a regenesis. Whether that is before or after the big fight scene is up for debate, but I do not see Rand in the fight of his life with sooo many things troubling him. I feel that Rand needs to be whole before he is ready.

Woof™.
Daniel Hanley
71. dmhman749
Well, there are plenty of theories about Rand dying, then getting pulled out of T'A'R' and having a new body. Then there is the one where his body dies and he gets put into Moridin's body. Or the one where he just merges with Moridin's body(like Luc and Isam), and so he can just choose to live in the undamaged body.

As for healing...I find it unlikely that he will visit the Finns to get healed. If he gets healed in the body he is in, it will be from Nynaeve figuring out to heal him(she has been complaining enough about how she should be able to heal the wound in his side, at least, to provide plenty of foreshadowing). Maybe she will link with Flinn and whoever the Yellow who bonded Flinn is(can't remember off the top of my head) and heal him with all of that talent in healing. Do other people's talent matter in circles, or just the power they provide and the talents of whoever runs the circle? I can't remember.

I'm not sure either way though. I could easily see RJ having Rand fight the last battle wounded...it is supposted to be a very hard journey. I think people are too quick to think Rand will be healed just because he is the main character and they feel bad for all that he has had to suffer through. I don't think it works that way, but we will see.

Subscribe to this thread

Receive notification by email when a new comment is added. You must be a registered user to subscribe to threads.
Post a comment