Sep 28 2010 1:43pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Winter’s Heart, Part 20

Bells are ringing, WOT fans! Which is what happens when you get kicked repeatedly, I hea r. But hey, it’s still a Wheel of Time Re-read, bruises and all!

Today’s entry covers Chapters 30 and 31 of Winter’s Heart, which brings a whole new meaning to the term “shotgun marriage”—or, more appropriately to the setting I suppose, er, “spearpoint marriage”? “Runaway marriage”? Something like that. You know what I mean!

In other news, the Prologue for Towers of Midnight, the upcoming newest release in the series, is now available for download, and a special preview of Chapter 8, “The Seven Striped Lass”, is available here. If you would like to read my completely spoiler-free advance review of Towers of Midnight, you can find it here.

Please refrain from posting spoilers for either the Prologue or Chapter 8 in the posts for the Re-read, in order to protect those who have not yet read them, or do not intend to before the release of the entire book. Spoiler discussion is going on here, in a special post just for discussion of preview material; please keep all spoilers there. Thanks.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to all of the above plus links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

Scheduling note: Much as I know it will pain your greedy little hearts, this is the only Re-read post going up this week, and I am not at all certain whether there will be a Re-read post the following week. This is because in a few days your Auntie Leigh is going on her first real vacation since, um, 2009, and thus she is cutting back decisively, one might even say vehemently, on anything that remotely smacks of actual toil, because all work and no play might make Leigh a Jack Nicholson. And no one wants to see that, really. Trust me. You can’t handle the Jack Nicholson.

I’m not sure about no post next week, though; being so close to the end of Winter’s Heart I kind of want to just finish it already, but I also kind of desperately need a break, so we’ll see. I’ll keep y’all posted in the comments. And yes, I suck, I know, but I totally promise your hearts will go on. For reals, I swear.

So there’s all that. And now, the post!

Chapter 30: Cold, Fat Raindrops

What Happens
The next day, Mat goes around reassuring himself that everyone knows their roles for that night, trying very hard to convince himself that nothing will go wrong. He makes Nerim and Lopin repeat their instructions about where they and the Redarms are to wait outside the city for him, and orders them to only wait until sunrise before going on without him to Talmanes.

The alarm would go up with the morning inspection of the kennels, and if he was not out of the city before that, he expected to learn whether his luck ran to stopping a headsman’s axe. He had been told that he was fated to die and live again—a prophecy, or near enough one—but he was pretty sure that had already happened.

Nerim and Lopin both murmur their agreement to go without him; Mat suspects they’re lying, but lets it go. He is surprised that Olver isn’t more upset about leaving Riselle, but Olver points out that she’s getting married (Mat reflects that her Seanchan beau hadn’t stood a chance against “that marvelous bosom”), and tells Mat he isn’t a child anymore, before making Mat promise they will play Snakes and Foxes more once they leave. Beslan is very upset that Mat is only letting his rebels set a few fires as a distraction, and Mat makes him promise again that he himself will not participate, and be prominently seen getting drunk in an inn when the fires happen, in order not to endanger Tylin. Mat sees money changing hands among the servants when they see the Redarms moving their horses out of the stables; the sul’dam are obviously amused by the gossip that Tylin’s Toy is leaving. Mat sees Teslyn in the stableyard looking dazed and shocky, and worries that she might be about to break. Mat goes back to Tylin’s rooms and worries about his ashanderei, which he has to leave in the rooms until the last moment. Fretting, he sits in the dark room and waits, hoping everyone else was doing what they were supposed to be doing; Egeanin in retrieving Joline, and Juilin in retriving Thera.

Thom, Joline and the others from the inn would meet him just before he reached the Dal Eira. And if he did not reach it, Thom had gone ahead with carving his turnip; he was sure he could get them past the gates with his forged order. At least they had a chance, if it all fell apart. If. Too many ifs to think about, now. It was too late for that.

Four hours past nightfall, Mat leaves the room and heads to the stableyard, trying to appear casual. Finally, riders appear at the gates, but there are too many of them, and Mat almost retreats before Egeanin strides up, trailed by Domon and two sul’dam with their heads down. Egeanin informs Mat that his man Vanin is “very rude,” and that he didn’t tell her Joline had two men and Setalle Anan coming with her, but luckily Egeanin knows how to adapt, and had the Warders (and Setalle) acting as her entourage (they are still at the gate). She introduces Mat to the sul’dam (Seta Zarbey and Renna Emain), and Mat wonders what hold she has on them, but decides it doesn’t matter.

“No point standing here,” Mat said. “Let’s get on with it.” He let her changes in the plan go without further comment. After all, lying on that bed in Tylin’s apartments, he had decided to risk a change or two himself.

I hereby nominate this for Most Random Chapter Title in WOT. “Cold, Fat Raindrops”? Really?

Sometimes familiarity with narrative tropes is a good thing, and sometimes it can really lead you down the wrong path. The first time I read this chapter, for instance, I was convinced Mat’s worry about his ashanderei was a Chekhov’s Gun that was going to ruin the whole scheme; I thought he was going to be prevented in some way from getting to it and have to blow the escape by refusing to leave it behind, or some such.

This, quite understandably, pissed me right the hell off, as I was so frickin’ ready for Mat to get out of Ebou Dar at this point it wasn’t even funny. Of course, then it turned out that getting the spear was the least of Mat’s problems, so you know, nevermind.

Re: Mat’s thoughts about dying and living again: I know which incident Jordan said fulfilled the prophecy about Mat dying and living again (being resurrected by Rand balefiring the ever-living crap out of Rahvin in TFOH), but it occurs to me that this is probably not what Mat thinks is the fulfillment of the prophecy, for the very good reason that he doesn’t even remember that it happened. Mat, therefore, must assume that his near-hanging in Rhuidean (and resuscitation by, again, Rand, except with CPR instead of balefire) was what did the trick. I don’t really have a point in bringing this up; I just thought it was interesting because it hadn’t really occurred to me before.

Beslan: Aw, poor frustrated revolutionary. Have fun getting hammered, man! Oh, and I hope no one missed that Mat was essentially bossing around the crown prince of Altara, by the way. Yep, dude, you’re still just this guy. Suuure.

Egeanin: another erroneous Chekhov’s Gun, in that I thought for sure if the ashanderei didn’t derail the plan, she would, if through nothing more than her sheer being-annoyingness. Thank God I’m wrong a lot, eh?


Chapter 31: What the Aelfinn Said

What Happens
Egeanin is annoyed when Mat comes with her and the sul’dam to the kennels; Mat grins and tells her he has a “small errand” there, nothing to worry about. In the attic, Renna and Seta head for Edesina and Teslyn’s cells, and when Egeanin and Domon follow, Mat steels himself and darts into the cell he remembers containing one of the Sea Folk damane. He claps a hand over her mouth when she wakes, and asks what she would do if he took the collar off, praying he hadn’t gotten the room wrong.

“I would free my sisters, if it pleases the Light that should happen.” The Sea Folk accents in the darkness made him breathe again. “The Light be willing, we would cross the harbor, somehow, to where our people are held, and free as many as we were able.” The unseen woman’s voice remained low, but grew fiercer by the word. “The Light be willing, we would take back our ships, and fight our way to sea. Now! If this is a trick, punish me for it and be done, or kill me for it. I was on the brink of yielding, of giving up myself, and the shame of that will burn me forever, but you have reminded me who I am, and now I will never yield. Do you hear me? Never!”

“And if I asked you to wait for three hours?” he asked, still crouching over her. “I remember the Atha’an Miere judging the passage of an hour within minutes.” That fellow had not been him, but the memory was his now, passage on an Atha’an Miere vessel from Allorallen to Barashta, and a bright-eyed Sea Folk woman who wept when she refused to follow him ashore.

“Who are you?” she whispered.

“I’m called Mat Cauthon, if it makes a difference.”

“I am Nestelle din Sakura South Star, Mat Cauthon.” He heard her spit, and knew what she was doing. He spat on his own palm, and their two hands found each other in the darkness. Hers was as callused as his, her grip strong. “I will wait,” she said. “And I will remember you. You are a great and good man.”

“I’m just a gambler,” he told her. Her hand guided his to the segmented collar around her neck, and it came open for him with a metallic snick. She drew a very long breath.

He shows her how to open the collar, and hopes she waits as promised. He leaves the cell, and almost walks into a der’sul’dam, who is facing away from him, talking to Egeanin. Mat almost attacks her before Egeanin silently warns him off, and instead slips shakily out of the attic and runs to Tylin’s rooms. Inside, he is stunned to find that Tylin has returned early. She stares at him, and says Suroth heard of an army disappearing in Murandy and decided to cut their trip short.

Tylin glided to him across the carpets and fingered his plain green coat. “The trouble with having a pet fox,” she murmured, “is that sooner or later it remembers it is a fox.” Those big dark eyes peered up at him. Suddenly she seized two handfuls of his hair and pulled his head down for a kiss that curled his toes in his boots. “That,” she said breathlessly when she finally let him go, “is to show you how much I will miss you.” Without the slightest change of expression, she slapped him so hard that silver flecks floated in front of his eyes. “And that is for trying to sneak away while I was gone.”

She tells him to stay with her one more night, but Mat tells her he has to go tonight, and is taking Aes Sedai from the attic with him. He tries to convince her to come along, but she rejects the notion with scorn. He tells her he’d tried to arrange it so no suspicion fell on her, but now – she cuts him off and tells him he will tie her up, to make it look like she resisted, and she will be very angry and Seanchan Blood-like and put a bounty on his head. Mat believes her. Tylin gets rather fussy about the verisimilitude of getting tied up; Mat tells her he will miss her before he pushes her under the bed, and is surprised to realize it’s true. He grabs his spear and heads to the stableyard anteroom, but no one else is there; he growls and starts to go to check the stables.

“So you are intending to leave. I cannot allow that, Toy.”

Mat spins and see Tuon, and desperately tries to grab her, but Tuon fights back with surprising effectiveness, knocking his spear out of his hands and fending him off. Mat doesn’t understand why she isn’t screaming for help.

For some reason, after a few moments her full lips curved in a smile, and if he had not known better, he would have said those big liquid eyes took on a glow of delight. Burn him, thinking about how pretty a woman was at a time like this was as bad as trying to price her gems!

Tuon goes to kick his bad hip, and succeeds, staggering Mat, but suddenly Noal appears and grabs her from behind. Only now growing furious, she tries to shout, but Mat gags her with her own veil; she tries to bite him. Noal asks if he usually has this kind of trouble with women (Mat: “Always”), and adds that he didn’t know what Mat was planning, but had decided to leave himself anyway. Mat ties Tuon up with strips from her dress, earning a second painful kick in the process, and notes with amazement that she doesn’t look afraid at all. Juilin shows up with a woman in da’covale robes; Thera squeaks at the sight of Tuon and prostrates herself. Juilin asks what Mat intends to do with Tuon, and Mat replies that they’ll leave her in the hayloft to be found in the morning. Everyone hides at the sound of people approaching, but it’s Egeanin and the rest of their party; Edesina looks calm, but Teslyn is “a quivering mass of eagerness.” Egeanin starts to explain why they were delayed, but then she sees Tuon and stops dead.

“Oh, Light!” Egeanin said hoarsely, sinking to her knees. “You madman! It’s death by slow torture to lay hands on the Daughter of the Nine Moons!” The two sul’dam gasped, and knelt without hesitation, not only pulling the two Aes Sedai down with them but gripping the a’dam right at the collar to force their faces to the floor.

Mat grunted as though Tuon had just kicked him square in the belly. He felt as if she had. The Daughter of the Nine Moons. The Aelfinn had told him truth, much as he hated knowing. He would die and live again, if he had not already. He would give up half the light of the world to save the world, and he did not even want to think about what that meant. He would marry… “She is my wife,” he said softly. Somebody made a choking sound; he thought it was Domon.

“What?” Egeanin squeaked, her head whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to slap her face. He would not have thought she could squeak. “You cannot say that! You must not say that!”

“Why not?” he demanded. The Aelfinn always gave true answers. Always. “She is my wife. Your bloody Daughter of the Nine Moons is my wife!”

Everyone stares at him, all the Seanchan gaping in horror except for Tuon herself, whose expression is unreadable. Then Selucia hurries in (Mat groans), and tells him fearfully that what he is doing is “foolish beyond madness”, but can be fixed if he draws back, “whatever the omens”. Mat tries to soothe her, assuring her that she won’t be harmed; for some reason her fear disappears, and she tells him she will obey him as long as he does not harm her mistress, but if he does she will kill him. Mat doesn’t consider this much of a threat from her. Noal asks if he intends to leave them both in the hayloft.

“No,” Mat replied, looking at Tuon. She stared right back, still with no expression he could read. A boy-slim little woman, when he liked women with flesh on their bones. Heir to the Seanchan throne, when noblewomen gave him goose bumps. A woman who had wanted to buy him, and now likely wanted to put a knife in his ribs. And she would be his wife. The Aelfinn always gave true answers. “We are taking them with us,” he said.

At last, Tuon showed expression. She smiled, as if she suddenly knew a secret. She smiled, and he shivered. Oh, Light, how he shivered.


Well, I bet there aren’t too many people out there who can claim their marriage vows had actual profanity in them. I always knew Mat was a man after my own heart.

I think marriages in Vegas have more ritual than that one did. Okay, granted, as we find out later, that was only half a marriage, but still. Heh. Hah.

Amusement aside, I remember I was very much divided in my own mind about the second of Mat’s fates to come true, the first time reading this. Being a player is so much of who Mat is as a character, I was honestly kind of sad to see the inevitable end of that approach, mostly because he seemed so against it himself. I’m very much in favor of fidelity once you’ve committed to a relationship, don’t get me wrong, but at the same time I don’t have much patience for commitments you’re dragged into against your will, which is certainly what the Tuon thing struck me as for Mat. It’s like an arranged marriage, but even worse, because the actual universe is deciding it has to happen. That… kind of sucks, if you ask me. Love should be voluntary, dangnabit.

Yeah, I know. But still. Self-fulfilling prophecies give me headaches, y’all.

Regardless, though, it was still a great cliff-hangery way to end Mat’s plot arc. Or, “DAMMIT!” as I said at the time. Heh.

We get a better picture of where Tuon’s head was here later on, but I have to say it was very opaque to me on first reading, and even later she remains very much a character I don’t “get” in terms of motivation. Maybe I’m just constitutionally incapable of comprehending how being kidnapped would be even remotely fun no matter what prophecies I’d had about it. But hell, maybe the thrill of being out of control of things for once was a heady experience for her, or something. I can kind of see that, for a person with her background.

And contrariwise, sort of, I suppose in a weird way that I approve that she made Mat work at “carrying her away,” instead of just letting it happen. But in general, I don’t know; I think Tuon is just a strange, strange girl who I would never be able to talk to at a party. Mostly because I would probably end up beheaded inside of two minutes, but you know.

The Tuon thing aside, I loved this chapter for how generally awesome Mat was in it, all heroic to the nines and stuff. The interlude with the Sea Folk Windfinder, in particular, is one of my favorite moments in this book. If anything should ever come of Nestelle’s gratitude to Mat, that would be really cool.

Also, bye, Tylin! At frickin’ LAST, sheesh. I remember being very indignant that Mat thinks he is actually going to miss Tylin, because, agh. No. I have never been so thrilled in my LIFE to see a character fall by the narrative wayside, you guys.

Of course, I don’t think even she deserved to go the way she eventually does, but, well. I was still ridiculously glad to see her out of Mat’s life. Even aside from the whole nonconsensual aspect of their relationship, Tylin’s whole purpose seemed to be about making Mat less than he was, and I pretty much completely resented that. Bah.

Even though, I will give her credit for grasping Mat’s circumstances as quickly as she does and going along with it—relatively. There is certainly a kind of person who would have given Mat much more trouble about the whole situation than she does, so I suppose—SUPPOSE—that that should be acknowledged about Tylin. Grumpily acknowledged, but acknowledged. So there; I acknowledged it. And I’d better get some good karma out of it, too!

Chapter title: It’s kind of hilarious, and I don’t know if it was intentional or not, that even though we’ve known about the Snakes and Foxes/Aelfinn and Eelfinn since TSR, it’s not until five books later that it’s actually confirmed that the Snakes are the Aelfinn and the Foxes are the Eelfinn—and in a chapter title, no less! I’ve always wondered if that was something Jordan actually meant to keep the readership in suspense about, or if he just kind of forgot to mention which was which in the books until now. I don’t know why he would want to keep us in the dark about it, really, since knowing which is which doesn’t really help in any discernable way, but hey, sometimes he was kind of bloody-minded that way (cf. Asmodean), so what do I know.

At least the long uncertainty gave the fans plenty of opportunity to make Scandinavian-aimed “*finnland” jokes. IKEA may have gotten mentioned a disproportionate number of times, is what I’m saying. And fjords, and the pining for which thereof. Heh.

So, bye, Mat! Have fun eloping from the castle! See you in the next book!

And bye, Re-readers! See you in the next installment, which may or may not be next week, because I am about to full-bore tilt at some serious rest and relaxation windmills, you guys. It’s so crazy it just might work! Y’all play nice while I’m gone, ‘kay? Ciao!

Jay Shifflette
1. jaybird
Thanks Leigh
No One Shining moment?
2. Be'Lal
"Then Selucia hurries in (Mat groans), and tells him fearfully that what he is doing is “foolish beyond madness”, but can be fixed if he draws back, “whatever the omens”."

Was Selucia talking to Mat here, or to Tuon? I read it as talking to Tuon--the explanation for her sudden calming would also appear to be getting some sort of signal from Tuon.
4. Cyphon
And yes, I suck, I know, but I totally promise your hearts will go on.

/me winces. (Also, how sad is it I noticed that - regressing about 10 years in one go right there)

Not the best way the best way to lead into the re-read.

Also, this is one of my favourite chapters, in part because I think the interaction with Tuon/Mat is some of the best in the series for Mat. Or maybe I'm just a sucker for pre-determined romances....
Sam Mickel
5. Samadai
Some very excellent chapters with Mat. I was a little surprised that WH ended with Mat this way, and COT was Them just sitting in the circus doing nothing.
6. earlgrey
Great post, Leigh. Have a good break. And you are the miracle.
Karen Jacobs
7. KJacobs
Have a wonderful vacation Leigh! You've certainly earned a break. Don't worry about us - we have our shiny new TOM threads to play on, and I'm sure we can come up with a cage match or survey to keep us busy until you return. Rest & relax!
a a-p
8. lostinshadow
While I enjoy the hilarity of these chapters and always liked Mat and Tuon as a couple, the way poor Mat gets suckered into the marriage does seem a bit forced. After all, he'd have never said she was his wife if it hadn't been foretold. So too much of a forced self-fulfilling prophesy that.

Though regarding Leigh's comment that love should be voluntary - none of our heroes seem to have gotten that lucky. They all seemed to have been forced/destined into falling in love with types that quite frankly they would normally would not have touched with a ten foot pole.
Barry T
9. blindillusion
Enjoy the vacation Leigh.

Because yay! 3000+ posts are nigh... Or something like that.

And I don't know...a post through the mindset of Jack Nicholson could prove interesting...just saying....

And yes. These chapters. Mat goodness. But I'll comment on them later. Must. Write. Briefing. Nooo!!
James Jones
11. jamesedjones
Easily, some of my favorite Mat chapters. Makes you wonder if RJ propped Mat up as "Tylin's toy" for so long just to make these chapters all the more awesome. If so, I can appreciate it, but I still haven't been able to forgive it. 'Cause, ugh!

Enjoy your vacation, Leigh! Stay away from the water, and anything fun dangerous. We need ya back in a few weeks. But I'm sure we'll come up with a few ideas for killing time (such as Mat and Tylin pseudo-switching bondage roles). :P
2 Be'Lal

I'd definitely say Selucia was talking to Tuon initially. But that's not the way Mat saw it. Probably one of the only times that Mat gets it wrong when he was really seen as, "just this guy, ya know."
Noneo Yourbusiness
12. Longtimefan
Egeannin is certainly not "helping" in this fun little marriage ceremony which I am thinking she may know about yet does a very poor job at keeping Mat from repeating himself the required three times.

The "What?" does set up the repeat since most people will repeat themselves when it seems that what they said was not understood the first time. However the insistence that Mat not do something is pretty much a guaranteed way to get Mat to do something.

I wonder if he had said it four times it would have skipped past the ceremony and just fell back into conversation.

It is a very quick and fun scene with all the action and quick talking. Well in my mind they are talking quickly.

It does speak well enough of Tylin that she knows when to let Mat go that it makes the "release" of Tylin a bit more moving when it is mentioned in the next book.

Forward the Plot, and into the Story once more!

Uh, how much of this book is left?

Lannis .
13. Lannis
Thanks for the post and happy vacation, Leigh! Cheers! :)
Bill Reamy
14. BillinHI
Great post as always, Leigh, and fully enjoy your time away from all the madness. I still have hours of video to edit and digital pix to get into slideshows from my (overly long) vacation, so maybe I can get caught up on all that.

Mat truly is awesome in these chapters, as usual. The freeing of the SF gives me chills just reading the recap! It also goes to show that as annoying as the SF can be (have been!), they have their good side as well.
Rich Bennett
15. Neuralnet
Love this chapter where Mat makes his break for it. I imagine Mat is a (sea) folk hero now. Be funny to see him meet up with nestelle again.

Leigh I hate to say it but you need a reread assistant or partner. Tor should appoint someone to help you out... this reread has to be one of the biggest things driving eyeballs to their site... I Love (note capital L) your rereads Leigh but just wish there were more of them. no reason why two people (you and someone else) couldnt alternate doing the reread.
16. MojoMan
Selucia is totally speaking to Tuon, no question about it. Her reference to the "omens" is a dead giveaway.
Tina A
17. Tinaa
I love these chapters, Mat just keeps on getting better and better.

Leigh, enjoy your time off! Rest, relax and come back to us soon! We'll try to play nicely while you're gone...
Kurt Lorey
18. Shimrod
Have a great vacay, Leigh.

I too, would like to see Nestelle start up some hero talk about Mat with her compatriots. That could come in very handy sometime.
Maggie K
19. SneakyVerin
Happy Vacationing Leigh! no worries-although we eat up your posts at an alarming rate, I think we all know you deserve the break!

I wasn't as flipped out about the Tylin thing as some others were...Maybe I'm just too old, but I truly saw it as a role-reversal story and not a male sex toy story. So I felt his leavetaking from Tylin was a very moving scene.
The "marraige" scene was funny and beleivable. Only our Mat!
j p
20. sps49
Tuon trusts her future readings/ omens/ etc. enough to feel secure that she will at least be alive until she completes the marriage ritual. Having that at your back probably helps handle any fears or worries about being carried away.

Awesome Mat, awesome chapter. Isn't it nice when stuff actually happens, y'all?

But poor Nestelle din South Star is probably dead or recaptured with the rest of the Windfinders.
21. aross07
@11. jamesedjones

Mat was Tylin's Toy so that he could survive Ebou Dar, actually. He needed his luck so that Semhirage would not identify him. She did not, at least, not until it was too late for her to lay hands on him.

And perhaps as a funny plot intermezzo, too ;-)
22. Freelancer
Many readers seem to look at fictional prophecies as statements which "push" actions into place. Perhaps some authors write them that way, and perhaps Jordan did as well. But I view prophecies as pre-cognitive statements of future fact.

In the easiest example to discuss, Min has viewings which she knows will come true. The viewing itself doesn't cause the event, though neither does it allow the event to be changed because of the viewing. Siuan and others keep failing to accept that, to their own discomfort. Being warned that something will happen doesn't let you keep it from happening, and Min knows this. So, her viewing that she and two others would love Rand doesn't make her love Rand (it surely doesn't make Elayne or Aviendha love him), even though some would argue that her awareness induces resignation on her part to this fate.
Once a particular moment in time has passed, all speculations about different outcomes than what really happened are instantly moot. Mat was told that he'd marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons. The Aelfinn can read what would happen. That Mat's awareness of an outcome might (or might not) have altered precisely how it could have happened is immaterial. He wasn't forced into this. To suggest that would be to suppose that, had he not continued interrogating the snakes until they told him this, then it would not have been able to happen.

To a being able to "see" differently across time, there is less difference between a future event and a past one than for those who are bound into a linear temporal reality.
Justin Vickers
23. ScoundrelTheToy
So when Mat tells her to be calm nobody will be hurt, you think Tuon did her hand signals to Selucia and that's why she calmed down? Not because of what Mat said? That would make sense. I never thought Selucia calmed down for that reason, but if Mat didn't see 'em then we the reader wouldn't know so it makes sense.

One other thing that's always bugged me is in the chapter 'As If The World Were Fog' when Tuon makes the comment to herself that she kept some secrets from Selucia and didn't want to have to sent her to the headsman for breaking her (Tuons to Mat) word. What 'secrets' of her Foretelling by the damane did she tell Selucia, if anything? My best guess is she told Selucia they might be taking a trip soon and that's it. Otherwise why does Selucia get so mad at Mat when he sets them free in "Under An Oak" when Tuon completes the marriage ceremony.

Basically, what I'm trying to say/ask is if anyone else has any insight into this because I've never been able to figure out the intricacies fully here. Like Selucia seems to have no idea that Mat started a marriage ceremony and this whole trip is about a political match foretold for Tuon and subsequently the Empire.
24. Gabemar
This is one of my favorite chapters of WOT. And this is why WH is my favorite book post LoC, until GS came out.
25. AndrewB
Leigh said: " I think marriages in Vegas have more ritual than that one did."

I have seen some Vegas weddings with much less ritual than the 1st half of Mat's ceremony.

(For instance, mine -- my wife and I were living in Vegas when we finally decided to get married. One Saturday morning we got our marriage license at the Courthouse and then went across the street to be married by a civil magistrate. We were both wearing shorts. My family were quite surprised after I told them)

Anyways, just saying that Vegas weddings can be quite informal; even if Elvis is not officiating.

Leigh, do not pull a Mat on your vacation and get married to somebody you barely met. Other than that, enjoy your vacation.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Maiane Bakroeva
26. Isilel
Hm... Mat's storyline finally kicks into gear... only to come to basically a screaching halt in the next book. Meh. He is great both at planning and adapting on the fly, though.

Tuon, yep, don't get her either. She has been raised to marry for the good of the Empire - I don't see how she'd be able to resign herself to Mat so easily, omens or no. Also, I'd have thought that getting kidnapped at this point would be deadly dangerous for her political position and life? How could the Empress, MSF see it as anything less than failure?
And I see no chemistry between Mat and Tuon either.

Oh, and let me just laugh sardonically at the notion that Semirhage didn't have the wits to bug Tuon with inverted locator waves to the hilt. Of course, she also didn't manage to get Tuon alone for re-modelling in 2 years and this given Tuon's history of vanishing from time to time :(. It seems that the "long sleep" of the FS was more in the nature of lobotomy...

Nestelle din Sakura is actually pretty bad-ass. She did manage to free other WFs and collectively they did rescue their people, grabbed some ships and escaped. How would our perception of the SF have been changed if we actually got to see it? Why do we witness only the annoying parts about them and those in great detail?

Another interesting tidbit is that Edesine, who had been a damane since the fall of Tarabon, IIRC, has it much more together than Teslyn. A pity that she remains a complete cipher due to her lesser standing in OP. Is it another example of hard versus strong? Or is she a DF? Though it does seem strange, if so.

I used to really like Egeanin, too bad that she really sucks in this plot-line. First, she, a sailor, suddenly became a prude who disapproved of making-out in Setalle's kitchen, now this and it will only become worse. Become an artillerist already and regain your former stature!
Lannis .
27. Lannis
Isilel @ 26: I completely echo your sentiments on Egeanin. She was Awesome when she was realizing the error of the mind-mush she'd been fed re: channelers. But now? Annoying. I understand she's stressed by her precarious position in the world (betraying the empire, seekers after her ass, whatnot), but man... she really brings things down. And Domon is basically her thug.

Maybe I'm just spoiled... XD
Jeff Weston
28. JWezy
NeuralNet@15 - I have to say that I think the continuity of Leigh's voice adds to my appreciation of the re-read. I for one am ready to wait rather than have a "substitute teacher", regardless of how qualified they are.

And remember that Leigh has a long history of analysis of these books. She is almost uniquely qualified to do this re-read.

What I am not looking forward to is November and December - I will receive ToM as a holiday gift, so I will have to absent myself from the re-read for that time to keep out of spoilersville. I can tell you that I missed it a good deal last year.

Leigh, for my part, enjoy your time off, and if you choose to get married, more power to you.
Kat Blom
29. pro_star
Leigh, have a great vacation!Be'Lal - I think you're right, and it is at Tuon, but...doesn't Tuon get surprised later on at Mat's ignorace about the 'omens' that are common knowledge in Seanchan culture? So it's possible if there were other omens present...
Roger Powell
30. forkroot

Another interesting tidbit is that Edesine, who had been a damane sincethe fall of Tarabon, IIRC, has it much more together than Teslyn. A pitythat she remains a complete cipher due to her lesser standing in OP. Is it another example of hard versus strong? Or is she a DF?
There is circumstantial evidence the Edesina is a Darkfriend. It comes from Verin actively refusing to share Traveling with the three Aes Sedai accompanying Mat. The only reason that I can come up with is that Verin had one of them listed in her little "black book", and Edesina seems the most likely.
Captain Hammer
31. Randalator
re: ongoing hearts

Hnnnnyyyaaaaaaarrrrrrgggh...! Don't do that! Ever! Again! Please! Pretty please with sugar on top! I'm going to clean my brain with a wire brush and acid now, thanks...


...okay, I'm back and blissfully happy now... *drool*

re: Mat's life/death moment

In TFoH, ch. 56 Asmodean thinks about lots of Aiel remembering him being killed in the Battle for Britain Caemlyn and is really creeped out by it (the whole five seconds he has left). The same probably happened to Mat so I suppose he at least knows of two occasions where the dying was followed by living again. Although I agree that he most likely tends towards the Rhuidan hijinks for the most likely candidate.

Sometimes familiarity with narrative tropes is a good thing, and sometimes it can really lead you down the wrong path.

Which, I guess, is also a good thing because yay for surprises?

re: universally arranged marriage

I propose that one doesn't voluntarily fall in love, ever. That would make things far too easy which, incidentally, things never are. Following that logic all "normal" relationships are arranged by the universe (or alcohol, fairies, unicorns, naked boys with bows and arrows...there's still lots of debate in the scientific world. Not leprechauns, though...). The only difference is: Mat got to look at the director's secret shooting script, where we usually don't. So, no voluntariness (yes that's a word, I looked it up) in all things love which will probably turn your headaches re: selfulfilling prophecy in to a full-blown brain meltdown.

Oh yeah, "pinin' for the fjords"? What kind of talk is that?
Lucas Vollmer
32. aspeo
Good post Leigh! I hope you will enjoy your time off, and will come back feeling rejuvenated! I always love reading your re-read posts, and I will be just fine waiting for them to come out.

Chapters like these are why I like Mat so much. He is pretty much badass without even trying to be. I really like how he finds out Tuon is the person who will be his wife, and then unknowingly performs his half of the wedding ceremony!

I also don't think that it's so surprising that Tuon seems to accept what Mat has done. She comes from a culture that is extremely steeped in following superstitions/omens/prophecies, and so it really shouldn't be surprising that she follows along with what she had already been told would happen.

I didn't approve of the way Tylin treated Mat all some of the time, but when he tied her up as part of the ruse I couldn't help but feel sorry for her since I know what is going to happen to her. I did find it pretty amusing at the way she greeted him though! Kissing him strongly and then slapping him just as strongly!

One last thing
Noal seems to show up at some the most opportune moments to be just a coincidence. Either he is watching after Mat for his own reasons, or someone is telling him to do it. Hopefully he is doing it on his own, but I can't shake the thought that Noal might have a more sinister purpose coming up in the last books.
Thomas Keith
33. insectoid
Aw. Don't worry Leigh, you deserve the vacay! After all, as Blindillusion pointed out, you need to be prepared for the 3000+ comment monster threads come November... ;)

At least we get two chapters of Total Matty Awesomeness. Anyway:

Mat: Awesome. Except for the part where he ties Tylin up. *headdesk*

DotNM: Nice timing, Egeanin...

Heh... pining for the fjords.

Seanie @10: Buh? Um... ::babelfish:: ...Ich verstehe nicht Deutsches? ;)

34. FeloniousMonk
Not to quibble or anything, but ethnically and linguistically, Finns are not Scandinavian.
35. Freelancer
Ahh, the point is, prior to knowing which of the groups is which (snakes = Aelfinn, foxes = Eelfinn), it became normal to refer to them simply as the 'finn. Which of course led to humorous comments about 'finnish this, 'finnish that, and hopefully you can follow that path without a map...
Don Barkauskas
36. bad_platypus
insectoid @33:

Seanie was making a pun on Auf Wiedersehn, which is German for "see you later;" the "wieder" part rhymes with "reader."
Thomas Keith
37. insectoid
Bad_platypus @36: Ohh... of course. Couldn't tell. :)

38. Freelancer

As Peanut would say, "NNNeeeaaaooowWW!" (5:46 in the clip)
Rob Munnelly
39. RobMRobM
Time for someone to cue up the fish schlapping song from Spamalot. In three, two, one....
40. keltainen
Must resist... Must resist... But I can't: Ikea is originally from Sweden. Too bad, I bet Tuon would be thrilled to get some of those curtains. Perhaps Mat could paid a visit to Sweden, too?

Have a nice vacation Leigh!
Leigh Butler
41. leighdb
@ 34 and 40:

Ah, but see, both of these things were known on the newsgroup, especially since we had several posters there from those countries. The willful ignorance was part of the joke.
Chris R
42. up2stuff
Free @ 22,

Wasn't there some kind of debate among the Wise Onces and dreamers about this when Rand, Moiraine, and company got to Rhuidean? I seem to remember that someone said something about Moiraine going in, and whether or not she should have been told to go, or not. Details are hazy, but it seemed like it was one of the "Oh no! I've gone cross-eyed!" moments.

edit to add:
Leigh, enjoy your vacation! We'll miss you.
Elena Vaccaro
43. EarthandIce
Well, Leigh, you deserve a vacation, have a good one and come back all refreshed so we can have many more WoT posts with you incredible knowledge of the series.

I really liked that Mat finally realizes Tuon was The Daughter of the Nine Moons. How many women/people had he asked about her? I lost count. As for Selucia accepting Mat's statement that he will not harm Tuon, I think Tuon had told her parts of the prophecy but not all.

We have to realize Selucia was the one who raised Tuon, and elected to stay with her after Tuon officially became an adult. "How many sacks of gold? One for every time she was punished as a child. The amount was impressive."

As for Mat dismissing Selucia's claim she would kill him if Tuon was harmed, Mat's only experience with women in a society that accepted them fighting was the Aiel. He has no concept of the intrigue of the Seanchan court. If I remember correctly, the only contact he has really had with the nobility outside of The Band was in Tear when he was gambling with the sons of the High Lords and was very reluctant to get pulled into the mess with their fathers.

The amount of 'omens' the Seanchan nobility use, it makes me wonder how they accomplished as much as they have. And Tuon's thinking ta'veren (sp?) was foolishness, well I guess watching ants beats believing in the Pattern being forced to change around ata'veren.

As an aside, I noticed many of us are acquiring cool icons. KJacobs, Tinna, and Lostinshadow have joined me with felines, bad_platypus has his/her cool pic as does insectoid. I really like the rose Lannis has and yay to Randilator for the Dragon Banner!

I am sitting in the library doing my best to not crack up at Peanut. I am marking the address as Jeff Dunham is one of my favorite comedians.

I will check back tomorrow, and we also have the Malazan re-read while Leigh is on Va-Ca.

And in tribute to Peanut, there is peanutbutter fudge in the bunker. Enjoy!

edit for spelling
Skip Ives
44. Skip
I just remember when the book came out and everyone was wondering "That can't be the way the Seanchan get married, can it?"

And of course the 'finn jokes.

@31. Randalator Following that logic all "normal" relationships are arranged by the universe (or alcohol, fairies, unicorns, naked boys with bows and arrows...

I see you had as much fun at college as I did.

Pining for the fjords,

Claire de Trafford
45. Booksnhorses
You see Leigh, the problem is that your re-reads are far too brilliant for us to allow you any time off! Actually, I suspect that I will be without internet access for the next week or so, so I shall graciously accept your vacation application and wish you well.

A fantastic Mat chapter. And a great SF character too; almost unbelievable - perhaps she'll stage some sort of coup and replace all the rubbish SF that we've seen so far with her friends.

Not much to say on Tylin other than to repeat my position on it being a consensual relationship.

Does Tuon have to marry for the good of the Empire? I was under the impression that the Empress was the absolute ruler and chose her consorts to suit herself. Speaking of which is it clear that all Tuon's sisters and brothers are full brother/sisters? I've got it in my head that the Empress can have husband, consort, lovers etc as she sees fit.

It does seem odd that Tuon abandons her responsibilities to 'run off' with Mat here; likewise that Semirhage hasn't jinxed things in the time that she had. Perhaps she's fallen into the classic villain trap of overly elaborate plotting plus long-haired cat stroking? I guess we just go with the flow here.

Can I come get some fudge from the bunker? Sounds great.
John Massey
46. subwoofer
First off- Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't abandon us Leigh- there are a bunch of people that do remote posting via smart phones- just putting it out there. Or you could pre- do a post and Tor could release it later... Awwww c'mon, you are not still put out from having us come over to check out the new book are you?

And whomever said it, yes, Leigh needs an assistant. Leigh is good for business. But a firm "no" to the alternate post idea. There is only one Leigh, no immitations accepted.

Mat- okay folks, I know we are not a big fan of any naval people. Seafolk or Seanchan. Mat ( most people's fav) now has strong ties to both. And now Mat has two ties to the Seafolk. Mat makes the MOA bargains with the Mistress of Ships and then he frees the captured Windfinders. I think this is good Karma and will repay Mat in the end. Something a lot like the mercenary ships in LoTR. I said it first.

Tuon. Well, I suppose she has her moments. Did get a kick outta Selucia. Mat is just interested in her er... apparel and and not so much that she could $h!t-can him in a heart beat. I still remember when Thom sees her in full action in upcoming chapters, that still cracks me up. LOL.

Tess Laird
47. thewindrose
So, I am wondering why there is no hardly any backlash for Tuon taking off on an adventure, while Elayne got lambasted?

And I think that the Empress has many different men in her life, but it is never stated directly in the text.
From KoD chapter 9 A Short Path:
His wife-to-be had had a brother and sister assassinated?{...}Half her siblings were dead, assassinated, most of them, and maybe the others too.{...}The Empress had borne many children, as every Empress did.

From KoD chapter 36 Under An Oak:
Her(Tuon) mother had loved her father, it was said.

When Mat is courting Tuon in CoT, Tuon is asking what Mat does for a living.:
"I'm a gambler," he said.
My"My father called himself a gambler," Tuon said softly. "He died of a bad wager."

So with all of that, I think Tuon has many different 1/2 siblings who all share the same mom, but not dad.

Philip Thomann
48. normalphil
My favorite image in the series is Mat sitting for hours in that chair as the sky darkens and rain falls, visualizing events as they occur, then getting up when it's time for him to start. It gets across self-possession.
Tricia Irish
49. Tektonica
Leigh...thank you and enjoy your time "off"!! We'll miss you, but we can entertain ourselves....;-))

Nice for your break to start on some awesome Mat chapters!

I know we've been over this quite a bit, but.... I always liked Tylin, and felt that she was a rather tragic character. I'm going to pull a Wetlander here and defend her, to highlight her heroic actions in this chapter......
She's totally isolated. Her husband is dead. (Probably some stupid duel.) She's the Queen, so who's she going to meet? Other nobles, courting her for Power, not for who she is? She's lonely! She's horny! Mat's fabulous, charismatic, ta'veren, fun and doesn't care who she is. I know she forces herself on him, but really, is Joe Average, ie: not a Noble, going to approach her? No way. She goes after him in the Ebou Dari fashion. She is the Queen, so what she wants, she gets.

And he ends up liking her...a lot. It was the way she got him that upset everyone, I think. It demeaned Mat, our hero, reduced him to her Toy, and was a bit violent in the beginning. (Of course the demeaning, was a necessary plot element for Tuon...to underestimate him, and for her realization of his complexity much later when she sees the Lion on the Plain.)

At the end , Tylin shows her true colors.....She knew he would leave at some point. He was a strong, charismatic man, after all, that's why she liked him. When he showed his backbone, she went with the plan. In spades. I really really think she cared about him.....and he about her. And of course, her end is horrid. She didn't deserve it. C'est la vie and c'est le livre.

*End of Rant*

I'm not sure how much of these prophecies Selucia is in on? I think Tuon keeps her own council, to a great extent. She may love Selucia in her own way, but Selucia is still property and as such, is certainly not her confidant. I have a feeling being a Seanchan Royal is a very lonely occupation. Selucia's job is keeping Tuon alive, and I'm sure she knows about the other disappearances which Tuon instigated, so she's going to just go along with whatever Tuon wants. IMHO, of course.

Egeanin was "enlightened" and is now getting very annoying....and it gets worse...ug. Doman too...what's up with this?

Aspeo@32: I think Noel has been compelled by Ishmael before he was sent to recover and deliver his message with/to the Ogier.

Psst....Leigh's away...paaaaarty in the Bunker! I'll bring some fresh habanero chili, and salsa verde from New Mexico...pollo, chips....just because I'm home, and it's Tuesday, and it's MAT!

BTW, Torie: I don't stay logged in, after all. In fact, the site logged me out tonight before I managed to compose and post, so I had to edit. Can this be fixed? I like staying logged in! So much faster. Thanks!
Julian Augustus
50. Alisonwonderland
Isilel @26:

I used to really like Egeanin, too bad that she really sucks in this plot-line. First, she, a sailor, suddenly became a prude who disapproved of making-out in Setalle's kitchen

There's nothing sudden about it, Egeanin has always been the biggest prude it would be your misfortune to meet. Remember at Tanchico when the seeker caused some disturbance in the night at the inn the supergirls were staying with Egeanin as a "guest". All the girls came out in their night gowns and only realized after a minute or so that the men were eyeing them appreciatively.

Domon made no effort at all to hide his frank appraisal of Egeanin, crossing his arms and pursing his lips in a disgusting fashion while looking her up and down.
The situation dawned on the other women quickly, but their reactions were quite different. Nynaeve, in her thin white silk, gave the thief-catcher a flat stare and strode stiffly into the room, poking a somewhat flushed face back around the side of the doorframe. Egeanin, whose linen shift was considerably longer and thicker than Nynaeve's - Egeanin, who had been cool serenity while being made prisoner, who fought like a Warder - Egeanin went wide-eyed and crimson-faced, gasping in horror. Elayne stared, amazed as the Seanchan woman gave a mortified shriek and leaped back inside.

And all this because a man could see her toes?
Maiane Bakroeva
51. Isilel

But didn't Egeanin react that way because there was some perceived similarity of her sleeping attire to that of a da'covale? Seemed like a cleverly inserted cultural difference to me. I can't imagine such a nudity-conscious sailor...

Re: Egeanin sucking, it is one of the many examples of secondary characters being dumbed down to make the main characters awesomer, supposedly. Personally, it does the opposite, IMHO. People accuse Egwene's storyline of that, but really, it has been happening around the TR boys much more.
52. Rand Al'Todd
Anybody else catch that a Windfinder escape, with fireballs, etc. will ALSO help cover Belan's fires, making it less obvious that they were intentionally set as part of a plot???

Mat does a good deed for the Seafolk - earning some future brownie points we hope, gets a bigger overall distraction to cover his escape, and covers his buddy Belan. Seems like those hours in the darkness were put to good use.
53. Freelancer
up2stuff @42

In that scene, the dreamwalkers knew Moiraine would go into Rhuidean, but in the dream versions she had always asked them permission. Instead, what happened was that Melaine accidentally let it slip that Moiraine would go. The other Wise Ones were displeased that Moiraine learned of it that way, and when she asked if it made a difference, they couldn't say.

Alisonwonderland @50

It isn't even remotely prudishness. Every aspect of Seanchan society is defined, and anything which steps outside of those definitions is reacted to in the extreme by Seanchan people. It isn't the amount of Egeanin's skin that is exposed which horrifies her. It is being seen in what she knows is an undergarment. It is being seen in other than the appropriate presentation for her station. As a junior member of the Blood, this is out-of-bounds, regardless if it is personally immodest.
Jay Dauro
54. J.Dauro
WH 31
"I'm called Mat Cauthon, if it makes a difference."
"I am Nestelle din Sakura South Star, Mat Cauthon." He heard her spit, and knew what she was doing. He spat on his own palm, and their two hands found each other in the darkness. Hers was as callused as his, her grip strong. "I will wait," she said. "And I will remember you. You are a great and good man."

KOD 22
Her tightly curled hair was nearly all gray, the honor chain across her left cheek heavy with gold medallions recording her triumphs, including one for her part in the Escape. Her wrists and ankles still bore the marks of Seanchan chains, though hidden by her silks now.

When it comes to the Escape from Ebou Dar, we know the Seafolk honor it. I think that if Nestelle managed to tell how she was released to anyone who stayed alive, the Seafolk will know Mat's name (else why did she ask?) And they will consider that they owe him big time. 

Isilel @26 et al

Even if Edesina is a darkfriend, how should that help her as a damanae? The Seanchen do not take it easy on darkfriends. I have to think that she is just stronger (not harder ;^)  ) than Teslyn. 

I see no indication in the text that Egeanin thought her linen shift resembled the almost transparent robes of a da'covale. It is specifically mentioned as longer and thicker than Nyneave's silk, and almost the same as a Taraboner dress. Although earlier we have seen Egeanin refer to Taraboner dresses as Those thin, scandalously draped dresses, one green, the other blue, were silk, not linen or finespun wool.  

I believe RJ is again waving cultural differences at us. The Seafolk consider running around topless normal, but thin dresses as scandalous. The Seanchen will accept something on da'covale, but be offended by the same thing on a free person. And do see some clothing as scandalous.
55. Rand Al'Todd
Also: from Leigh's synopsis:

"Mat spins and see Tuon, and desperately tries to grab her, but Tuon fights back with surprising effectiveness, knocking his spear out of his hands and fending him off. Mat doesn’t understand why she isn’t screaming for help.

"For some reason, after a few moments her full lips curved in a smile, and if he had not known better, he would have said those big liquid eyes took on a glow of delight."

Mat had been cryptic about how he paid for the
ashanderei. That had been her first view of him as something other than Toy. Here Tuon is getting herself another view of Toy, maybe her first real glimpse of the Lion. She has been trained in hand to hand combat and considers herself badass, but Toy is at least holding his own. She is pleasantly surprised and very pleased.

Then Noal grabs her from behind - not part of her plan - and she tries to shout and break free, until Mat says that he will take her with him - still a departure from her plan for the evening, but, she recognizes, another layer of the prophecy - time to go with the flow again.
Andrew Foss
56. alfoss1540
Jordan does rape in such interesting ways in WOT - Alanna against Rand, Ashamen against Aes Sedai (Logain was a classy mental rapist) and Tylin against Mat. This chapter is defintely part of why WH is among the best WOT books. This final scene absolutely blew me away. I almost likes Tuon for a while.
Sandy Brewer
57. ShaggyBella
Some random Mat POV thoughts that I liked, and a few questions.

Unfortunately, Beslan was another who seemed to think you could win at Snakes and Foxes.
(Or his Seanchan rebellion)

Maybe the serving women did not talk to the Seanchan women, but what one woman knew was always known to every woman inside a mile soon enough. (on the Suldam knowing he was leaving)

A knife plucked from his sleeve started a cut in the hem of her (Tuon's) dress, and he tore away a long strip to tie her ankles. It was a good thing he had gotten all that practice with Tylin earlier. He was not accustomed to tying women up. (A reason for Tylin's early return?)

In none of his memories could he find a way to deal with a hysterical woman. Except to hide.
( his memories are all from guys like himself!)

"Your Bloody daughter of the Nine Moons is my wife!" They stared at him, except for Juilin, who.took off his cap and stared into that. Domon shook his head, and Noal laughed softly.
(Noel has a strange sense of humor...I like)

Suroth learned an army had vanished in Murandy Was this Egwene's army going to Tar Valon?

"So you are intending to leave tonight. I cannot allow that, Toy."
Why should Tuon care if Tylin's Toy leaves the palace? It isn't really any of her business, unless she is trying to force her omen.

Also when Tuon is kidnapped it actually saves her life. If she had stayed in the palace, Semi would have murdered her when she did the rest of the royal family to enable Suroth. Probably why the pattern had the part about "Carry her Away"

ooh...ooh.... a wall o'text from me
Have a great vacation! You deserve it.
Justin Vickers
58. ScoundrelTheToy
Errr regarding the Empress and her having many concubines...I don't think so. I just think she's expected to have many children and she did, with her husband. It isn't unheard of for a woman to have 5 children and her husband dies. This doesn't mean she went around sleeping with random joe's just to produce children. Any child the Empress bears has to be a 'proper' child (husband/wife) to even be considered eligible to be the DOTNM.

We all know how big of sticklers Seanchan are to people having their proper places and the Empress in this society is almost considered worthy of worship and I suppose is by the 'common' people. I think almost the very thought of such a thing would lower her eyes for...untold ages! The reason Tuon thinks her mother was said to love her father is because these types of relationships are almost always entirely for political reasons and love doesn't factor into this. Not because her mother was married, yet slept around with random joe's just to have bastards that would inherently be illegimate heirs to the Crystal Throne.
Alice Arneson
59. Wetlandernw
Leigh - Have a great and relaxing vacation. Life's thrown you quite a few crazy twists lately. I hope you can do the things you enjoy most, cuddle that new nephew if you get the chance, and for a few days just forget everything that stresses you out. And if you find that you're so relaxed that writing a reread post sounds like fun, feel free! :) If not, we'll (probably) live just as long and die just as happy if we have to wait another week or so.

Tektonica @49 - Well done! And I agree, too. I like Tylin. (I don't necessarily like everything she did, but I like her.) And I love that line, "The trouble with having a pet fox is that sooner or later it remembers it is a fox." *sigh* BTW, did Tylin have any particular knowledge of Mat's "fox" identity? (E.g. "the fox that makes the ravens fly," "when the fox marries the raven" or any of that.) Those references seem to be mostly in Seanchan settings... Just idle curiosity, really. Obviously RJ purposely had Tylin to call Mat a fox, so we poor readers could catch the significance in case we missed it in other contexts, but I'm wondering if she had in-story reason to call him "fox" or if it's just another pet name as far as she's concerned.
By the way, just in case anyone can't remember or doesn't feel like looking it up, here's the text of Lidya's Foretelling:
Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other.
So she's facing the completion of the first sentence: she's seen Mat's ring, and now he a) has married her and b) is in the process of carrying her away. She fully believes the Foretelling, so I assume "She smiled, as if she suddenly knew a secret" is due to the explicit fulfillment of that first statement. And I think that knowledge is what makes her truly accept being "carried away" with no further struggle; if it's a Foretelling, what's the point in arguing about it? Not that she'll tell Mat, of course (maybe not even Selucia - I don't have the time to research that tonight), but she's not seriously going to try to outmaneuver a Foretelling. Notice, though, that she waits until he completes the entire prophecy before she completes the marriage ceremony. (Two whole books from now...!)
Thomas Keith
60. insectoid
Free @38: I hadn't ever heard of Peanut or Jeff Dunham before. (But it was funny anyway!)

Mmm... peanut butter fudge. :D

Hugh Arai
61. HArai

So, I am wondering why there is no hardly any backlash for Tuon taking off on an adventure, while Elayne got lambasted?

In my opinion, it's because Elayne deserves it. Tuon was kidnapped and went along to investigate the man she was fated to marry. Elayne was skipping out on her training and wanted to make Gawyn jealous of her having an adventure. Tuon brings Selucia, Elayne ditches Gawyn and Galad. Tuon knows the Seachan government manages just fine if she disappears, since she's done it before. Elayne knows Morgase will go into a rage if she disappears. And in a wonderful display of judgement of character, Tuon goes along with Mat, and Elayne goes along with Liandrin.
Yay new post!

And Leigh is on VK for a while*slumps*...well we'll just have to bear the silence for a bit then. Have a good time!

Rather a newbie poster here, but I have been following/lurking the re-read for a while...since LOC I think.

I really like the whole Mat/Tuon relationship. Recently I did my own little reread of winter's heart, then decided to read just the Mat chapters of CoT and KoD. Flowed really well and didn't drag much at all, unlike when it's kindof stuck in the middle of everything else. I also just kindof felt their, well, I don't know if relationship is really a good word for it, but their...somethingclosetoaromancedestinedmarriagethingy very satisfying. And Mat has SO fallen for Tuon by the end of it, hook line and sinker. At least he's got some class, bringing her silk flowers and such(aww...)

I guess you could do that with most of the characters here post LoC since the story arcs are so seperate for a while. I thought about doing it with Perrin(he was my fav up through tSR), but couldn't make myself sit through the PLOD again *shudder*. Enough is enough.(love the end of it though-but we'll get there when we get there I guess :) )

I think a possible reason Tylin call Mat a fox here is bc of his medallion. He wears it all the time. I'm pretty sure it mentions in one of Matt's chaps after Tylin and he...um, yeah.... he is just in his skin and medallion. She's seen it im 100% sure of(can't miss the big metal ornament while cutting off someone's clothes in strips-she did that I recall). And I think I should stop now bc it's late and I feel im ramblin a bit.

Now I just need to go grey and get an icon! :)

How do I do that again...?
Janet Hopkins
63. JanDSedai
Just click on the box in the upper right corner at the top of the page. It used to be called "My World", but I think it now says "Log-in". Then follow the prompts to enter all kinds of information about yourself. You might want to click on some of the regulars' names to get an idea of what you want to tell us.

It's a good time to get signed up and start posting, so you'll be ready to go when the new book comes out!
Captain Hammer
65. Randalator
EartandIce @43

The amount of 'omens' the Seanchan nobility use, it makes me wonder how they accomplished as much as they have. And Tuon's thinking ta'veren (sp?) was foolishness, well I guess watching ants beats believing in the Pattern being forced to change around a ta'veren.

Actually, I've become to think that that's a big honking double standard we WoT-readers are cultivating here.

We're all only too ready to believe in ta'veren twisting probability or in the Pattern as an actual existing entity that's not only the sum of the past but also actively designing and if need be changing the future by forcing individuals down certain paths. Cryptic prophecies written several millenia ago we accept as important rulebooks that have to and will be followed. A young woman reading auras and images around people and making foretellings that never fail we just take in stride without thinking twice.

But when we meet someone who believes in omens it's suddenly just supersticious mumbojumbo. Why? Because we've never seen them at work before. We're following the exact same thought process as the Randlanders (or the Seanchan re: ta'veren for that matter).

The more I thought about it those last years the more I started to suspect that the Seanchan omens are just another perfectly valid way of reading the Pattern.

Earlier today, 'd seen two dead rats lying on their backs, one with a tail in the mouth of the other. It was the worst omen she'd ever seen in her life, and it still chilled her to think of it.

(TGS, Prologue)

Cue arrow through Mishima's neck and Trollocs attacking the camp. Replace Tylee with Moiraine, put the scene into EotW and we wouldn't question the validity of omens even for a second. Moiraine said so, it obviously worked, omens got massive street cred, word.

Makes you think, huh...?
66. Rando al'Rissian
Freelancer @ 53

Eageanin was not a member of the Blood yet at that point. It wasn't until after Tanchico that she was entered into the Book. However, you are probably right that it was propriety not prudishness that caused her reaction. :)
Jonathan Levy
67. JonathanLevy
Neuralnet @ 15
No reason why two people (you and someone else) couldnt alternate doing the reread.

I must disagree. If there were two bloggers, much of the discussion would devolve to "Leigh2 would have been a lot funnier" or "Leigh1 would not have quoted so extensively" or "I can't believe Leigh2 didn't quote my favorite line, Leigh1 would have" and people would get passionate about it, leading to unpleasant arguments.

JWezy @ 28 I see we are in agreement, even if our reasons are slightly different.

Isilel @ 26
I used to really like Egeanin, too bad that she really sucks in this plot-line. First, she, a sailor, suddenly became a prude who disapproved of making-out in Setalle's kitchen...

Egeanin was always a prude. Remember the scene in Tanchico where the girls wound up standing in the hallway in their shifts being eyed by Domon/Juilin/Thom? She was more prudish than Nynaeve.
And, I see Alisonwonderland@ 50 has already covered this. But I think Egeanin freaked out not because her toes were visible, but because a shift is a bit like what a shea dancer wears, and nothing could be more humiliating than appearing like a shea dancer. The only thing I can imagine being worse is for an Aiel to have everyone see their toh.
Haha! I apunogize to everyone.
Ugh, now I see I'm repeating Isilel @ 51. Urrrgh!

forkroot @ 30
There is circumstantial evidence the Edesina is a Darkfriend. It comes from Verin actively refusing to share Traveling with the three Aes Sedai accompanying Mat

I must say I missed that completely. Is it in TGS? I'm not familiar enough with that book yet. Could you please point me towards the location?

Randalator @ 31

re: Mat's life/death moment
In TFoH, ch. 56 Asmodean thinks about lots of Aiel remembering him being killed in the Battle for Britain Caemlyn and is really creeped out by it (the whole five seconds he has left). The same probably happened to Mat...

Yeah, but if you don't already know that Balefire can undo actions, you're not likely to infer it from the fact that many people thought they saw you dead in a battle. You're more likely to assume that people got confused in the fog of war, or that someone else with a funny hat got killed and people thought it was you. Remember the darkhounds? Mat saw them chewing through his door and slobbering all over his arm, but when he sees the door is whole he convinces himself that he misremembered.

The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead!

aspeo @ 32
I can't shake the thought that Noal might have a more sinister purpose coming up in the last books.

Scary thought, especially since he's still under Ishamael's compulsion.

subwoofer @ 46
Why shouldn't Mat show some interest in Seleucia? She's beautiful! She's rich! She's got huge... tracts of land!

thewindrose @ 47
So, I am wondering why there is no hardly any backlash for Tuon taking off on an adventure, while Elayne got lambasted?

Well... the reason I don't blame Tuon is that she was kidnapped and had a Foretelling telling her it was inevitable. That's not exactly "taking off on an adventure" in my books.
HArai @ 61 Yeah, you said it already... :)

insectoid @ 60
If you haven't seen Jeff Dunham, you should check out Achmed the dead terrorist.

theLIGHTONE @ 62
Yeah, I've also done that - just followed the Mat thread in Cot and KoD. A very pleasant read.
Wesley Parish
68. Aladdin_Sane
With respect - or disrespect - to the dying and living again prophecy, I've always seen it as being the Rhuidean incident. Mat has some of the characteristics of the trickster god; he also has some of the personal characteristics of the Teutonic/Scandinavian war god Odin/Woden, and he was self-sacrificed and hung on a gallows.

To imagine any other situation fitting this prophecy, is too much like hard work, and furthermore, contradicts the RJ's consistency.

That being said, I've always wished Mat had suffered too much of a shock to think straight, and had said, "She's my husband. She's my husband. Your bloody Daughter of the Nine Moons is my husband." It would've been funnier ... and would've confused the living daylights out of Fortuona.

Anyway, they're off into the wild grey yonder, while you, Leigh, are likewise off into the wild blue yonder - whacko!!! Roll on the day!!! Enjoy your holidays!!!
69. QSNaz
Hi All, from a gorgeously sunny South Africa. I've been a looong time lurker, but seeing as things seem a bit slow today....

I've been loving this re-read, I can't believe how much I'm still enjoying this series, after +15years, and how much I've missed re-reading all by myself.

I still get goose bumps reading these chapters - Mat realising who Tuon is, Tylin letting him go. Man, RJ was good!

I've also been so impressed with the fanfic, you guys are amazing. Can't wait for ToM, though we'll only get in December :-(
Jay Dauro
70. J.Dauro
Possibly Verin does not teach the 3 to travel because she feels they might override her, and take Mat to Camelyn against her desire. (As I remember they all outrank her in the Power. And they do owe Mat, although you would never know it from their behavior.)

Leigh, we will miss your wonderful voice, but we will make do. Have a great time.
Rob Munnelly
71. RobMRobM
Quick thoughts (since I had a busy day yesterday).
- love love love the second chapter - one of my favorites.
- Tylin gets cool points for letting Mat go but loses them for hitting him (agh). Not cool, missy.
- Agree with the discussion above that the fox reference by Tylin comes from his medallion.
- I'm strongly in the camp that Mat "died" in Rhuidean rather than by balefire.
- Sea Folk scene is all kinds of awesome. Note that we haven't seen any in text indication that Nestelle was killed by Seanchan so, agree, here's hoping for the reunion with her or some other form of Cauthon worship from the SF.
- Leigh skips it but Egeanin got cool points for using her head and overcoming resistance to use of "Tessi" as her preferred damane.
- Love Tuon in this scene. Very cool. We don't realize it in text at this point, and only get it in the If the World Were Fog passage in KoD, but she's a master game player who is supremely confident of turning any situation to her advantage - including being kidnapped. Good for her.
- Selucia was definitely talking to Tuon about foolishness and omens rather than to Mat. Note to me it is clear the Tuon did not tell Selucia about Lidya's prophecy but no doubt they discussed various omens, as they always did. Those must have been interesting leading up to this....
- Interesting point above about the omens. We do treat them as being ridiculous but I don't recall a single instance where an omen is pointed out by Tuon that something consistent with the omen doesn't happen. But, on the other hand, I'm having trouble seeing how the pattern could work that indirectly - i.e., it wants certain people potentially to know something bad is coming so it ...makes two birds fly in circles over their heads. Yep, that makes sense.
- In case it's not clear to all, if Tuon hadn't given Selucia a finger sign to accept the situation without complaint, Mat would have been a dead man within two or three seconds. Her assassin skills versus a distracted, gentlemanly opponent. Brrr.
- Only one husband for the Empress - not talking Big Love Seanchan. The hubby is the Prince of the Ravens for goodness sake.
- Great cliffhanger ending for Mat's plotline in this book. Much more fun than the Rand Far Madding chapters that preceded it.
- On the subject to Leigh's re-reads and whether we should have a fill in, I'm opposed for the obvious reasons. Only deal I would agree to is the format of a couple of rereads I have seen, where the experienced poster and a newbie blog the same chapters together (a la the Malazan re-read or the Gestalt Mash re-read of Song of Ice and Fire). So we'd still get our Leigh.

Have a nice vacation, Leigh.

Maiane Bakroeva
72. Isilel
Well, Tuon was complicit in her own kidnapping, since she was there without her guards and didn't even try to raise alarm. Also, she was in position of immediate authority, unlike Elayne and abandoning that position for several weeks (!) really should have resulted in disgrace and/or death. So, I am not sure why she gets a pass.

Re: children of female rulers, it doesn't seem that illegitimacy would be too much of an issue,if Elayne is any guide. The thing is, with them one can be pretty sure that such a kid is indeed theirs, unlike with men. Of course, a chance for valuable political alliance gets lost in such a situation, I imagine.

And it certainly seems that the Empress had several husbands/lovers, who met variously unpleasant fates.
Tuon also said herself that she expected to wed for the good of the Empire... not sure how she managed to include Mat in this, at such an early stage and gambled everything on him being the right man.

BTW - isn't it strange that Tuon and every other Seanchan is unaware that Mat came to Tarasin Palace with several AS and that he had quite close relationship with them? It always seemed very incongrous to me that he wasn't questioned about Nyn and Elayne.

Re: ta'veren, in case of strong ones, it can be empirically proven. There is also a Talent of seeing them. We have nothing so definitive about Seanchan omens, the reverse in fact.
Tricia Irish
73. Tektonica
QSNaz@69: Welcome! So nice to have people here from all around the world. Time to go gray....top right hand corner!

RobM: Where is this Gestalt Mash reread of SoIaF? I'd love to see it!
Rob Munnelly
74. RobMRobM
Tek - google gestalt mash and you'll see it on home page. Or click on "books" link, which has the GRRM - and, as an extra bonus, a just-started Malazan reread.

Isilel - I'm not seeing any in-text support for why the Empress would necessarily have multiple or sequential husband/lovers, as opposed to one Prince who fathered many kids and then died. Do you have contra support? Re Elayne, there are important differences. Elayne is the sole heir, she has two brothers on site assigned to keep an eye on her...and she heads off on an adventure without a word to her named protectors. Re Tuon, there are other sibs, even though she is named heir, she is still under the veil (so is not yet the DoNM), and she has been given apparent latitude by Empress to engage in frolics and detours.

Jonathan Levy
75. JonathanLevy
QSNaz @ 69
Welcome aboard!

At last, someone in my timezone... :)
76. Looking Glass
Thewindrose @47:
So, I am wondering why there is no hardly any backlash for Tuon taking off on an adventure, while Elayne got lambasted?

For one, Tuon has a lot more reason than Elayne usually does to assume she’ll come out of this adventure alive and ahead. For another, Tuon isn’t (yet) actually indispensable to her society the way Elayne is: she’s certainly not the Empress’s sole heir, and “high lady Tuon” hasn’t assumed any responsibility for running the Corenne (that, by the way, seems to have been a deliberate decision specifically so she could have more personal freedom to act). Also, Elayne wouldn’t catch so much crap for it if it weren’t so habitual- she (and to a lesser extent the other SGs) started walking headlong into ambushes in book two, and hasn’t stopped yet.

(Of course, we do also have the somewhat unfair benefit of hindsight in knowing that Tuon’s decision did work out near-perfectly according to plan, while Elayne’s adventures tend to go off the rails pretty quick.)


ShaggyBella @57: Didn’t Semirhage imply that Suroth was the backup plan when Tuon disappeared? That was the point of worming her way in so close to Tuon. I suspect had Tuon remained in the palace, Semi would have kept her safe, and possibly not even felt the need to murder her family, as Tuon was undisputably in charge of the Seanchan in the only theater that apparently matters. (Do we know when that happened, by the way? I thought it was after Tuon left, but I’m not sure.)


Isilel @72: Mat’s public relationship to the Salidar AS is actually pretty easily downplayed, especially since the only people really positioned to know any specifics are close to Tylin or to Setalle Anan. Particularly given how distant and prickly even the Mat-SG relationship was at the time. If he were asked (and he might’ve been, whenever he swore the oaths), it would be really, really easy for him to play the part of a mercenary or something- someone hired by the Aes Sedai for temporary muscle, but not particularly fond of them or involved in their affairs. Especially given that they did leave the city without him.
Lucas Vollmer
78. aspeo

I think Noel has been compelled by Ishmael before he was sent to recover and deliver his message with/to the Ogier.

Jonathon Levy@67
Scary thought, especially since he's still under Ishamael's compulsion.

I agree that Noal has been at the very least under Ishy's compulsion in the past, and it worries me that he still is. I am now wondering if there is any evidence that he is still actively being controlled, or if he is more like a sleeper agent waiting for the best worst time to strike.
Max Espensen
79. Andvari
Ah, What The Aelfinn said is definitely in my Top 10 chapters of the whole series. Love this chapter, it encompasses everything good about Mat, is dramatic and resolves a mystery that's gone on for 6 books. Awesome times.

Leigh, don't worry about the re-read, I'm sure I speak for most when I say I'd rather you were doing it in a happy frame of mind. Plus I'd rather it was less frequent and high quality! Though it would make a neat type of sense to finish Winter's Heart before the release of ToM as I assume you're planning a multi-week hiatus as you did for TGS?

Also, another example of why they're so good even those of us who have read it multiple times still miss little facts and observations. In this case, that you only discover which Aelfinn/Eelfinn is which. Is it really now that you find out? I suppose I had the advantage of having KoD as the first book I had to wait for so could read up to here quite quickly, but it wasn't something I ever thought about.

I also like Isileil@26's point. Seeing the Sea Folk channellers escape would have really raised our general opinion of them I reckon, but we rarely see them do this kind of thing , whether it is on purpose or just because they're too minor characters to spend time on.

Just been re-reading TSR and it's amazing how different they are there. Do we think it's an anomaly that the ones in TSR are an anomaly and very nice or that RJ later decided that they were actually a haughty lot and originally were meant to be nicer?

Randalator@65: Another excellent point and one I remember thinking a while back, though not as articulated out as you (i.e. mine was basically, ah perhaps omens are actually true, it makes as much sense as the One Power really...) Perhaps the author deserves credit in the sense he makes us think like we are of their culture than ourselves as readers. I think it's something I'll look out for next time I read through, omens and whether there's conclusive evidence that they are fulfilled or ont. One question I suppose remains, by whom and how are they interpreted in the first place?
Wayne Wilson
80. stylusmobilus
Nah, no proxy for Leigh. Sorry. Irreplaceable.

Therefore, make sure you do enjoy your holiday Leigh, as there is a book coming that will make us post on a serial pest basis. And we will, of course, look to you for the provision of forums to do so.

So many comments about it, so I will cast my line in too. I don't think Rhuidean was Mat's death credit. He either still has it to do or it was the job Rahvin did on him at Caemlyn.

Everyone in Randland has some sort of connection to, or at least knowledge of, Aes Sedai. Perhaps Mat was questioned, behind the scenes. I'm not sure if they'd have pushed it. They were probably confident that they'd get the stragglers.
Birgit F
81. birgit
Does Tuon have to marry for the good of the Empire?

"Love? Tuon sounded surprised. "Perhaps we will come to love one another, Matrim, but I have always known I would marry to serve the Empire.KoD, ch. 36

A man can have more children if he has many women, but for a woman many children doesn't necessarily mean many men.
Suroth learned an army had vanished in Murandy Was this Egwene's army going to Tar Valon?


BTW, did Tylin have any particular knowledge of Mat's "fox" identity?

He has the foxhead medallion and a signet ring with a fox. Tylin must have seen both on him.
Mat is the fox and has to rescue an AS (who wears a serpent ring) from the snakes and foxes. Does that have anything to do with his connection to the finn?
John Massey
82. subwoofer
@JL- never figured Mat for a farmer or realtor;) I don't think there is anything wrong with relaxing with a nice mug of ale, setting back on a bench and looking at the back 40...

Elayne- well, I suppose stuff happens with her but at the end of the day she does get her tush over to Caemlyn for the fight for the Throne, and she does earn it. There is this Gawyn guy that really burns my ass and his lumping around the universe bugs me too.

This is not to say that I appreciate the dynamic that has evolved with Elayne and Mat, but that is a work in progress. Her impressions of Mat will not be tainted by Ny anymore and I feel that once the girls- all the girls- give Mat his props, all will be wavy gravy. I think that will come about when Mat meets Gareth Bryne and Mat outmaneuvers him. Cool stuff all around.

John Massey
83. subwoofer

Just putting it out there- but do you folks have an encyclopedic knowledge of these books or are leafing through the pages like lunatics?

Andddd- welcome theLIGHTONE- goes to show, don't be a lurker- we don't have rabies so let yourself in and set on down:) Fresh energy helps us get out on the shiny side of things.
You too QSNaz?!

Love the name Rando al'Rissian :)

Skip Ives
84. Skip
@49. Tektonica - I completely agree with you about Mat and Tylin, but I have no desire to go through the whole debate over that again. So I’ll just leave it there.

@74. RobMRobM - I don’t have my books with me, but I agree with Isilel. I was under the impression that the Empress was at least married more than once. The POVs of Tuon and Karede seem to indicate that, or I may be reading more into it then was intended.

Overall, this is not one of my favorite Mat chapters. Mostly because he has better ones, even ones involving Tuon. Maybe it is just residual bias on my part from getting this much and then being left with the cliffhanger. Tuon’s POV of Mat’s rejoining the Band, and Karede’s POV when Mat returns Tuon are two of my favorites of the later books.

Like Leigh said in her recap, I was just glad that none of the Chekhov’s Gun possibilities went off, delaying Mat’s exit even further. I always wanted to track all the storylines in the series, so I could do a reread of “Mat’s Story” or “Egwene’s Rise” or even “Perrin’s Perils”. Maybe once ebooks get sharable user footnoting and inter-book reference linking.
Birgit F
85. birgit
I always wanted to track all the storylines in the series, so I could do a reread of “Mat’s Story” or “Egwene’s Rise” or even “Perrin’s Perils”.

Encyclopedia Wot has graphics for the different plotlines in each book. Each group of characters has a different color line with dots for the chapters which are about these characters.
Rob Munnelly
86. RobMRobM
@84. Are you sure you and Isilel aren't thinking about Zelazny's Amber series? LOL. I have no memory of any text supporting that view but, of course, I could be wrong....
Tricia Irish
87. Tektonica
Mat is the fox and has to rescue an AS (who wears a serpent ring) from the snakes and foxes. Does that have anything to do with his connection to the finn?

OMG: I feel so thick. I never saw that! Wow. I'd say it does, but what? Verrrrry interesting, especially given what we hope to see in ToM. Thanks Birgit!
Skip Ives
88. Skip
Birgit @85 - I know Encyclopedia WoT has a good timeline. I meant an in-book designation. Some of my books have Post-It tabs in an effort to do that, but I lost interst, and it probably isn't good to do with signed first editions. Sorry for the confusion.

RobMRobM @86 - I don't think so, I haven't read the Amber books in around 15 years. I think it is more in the tone you read certain passages. It is possible that Tuon and Karede (as her former bodyguard) are simply using language to distance themselves from the killing of her siblings, but I didn't think so.
Cameron Tucker
89. Loialson
Birgit @81
*smack forehead*. Never saw that! Veeerry sly there RJ.

I love finding little nuggets in these books I've missed over the years.
diane heath
90. jadelollipop
Just a quick note before my grandson and I go for our walk.
1. I love the Mat/Tuon chapters. I was surprised at Tuon at first but have grown to love her as much as Mat. (Egeanin had to shock Mat to get him to say his portion of vows in ignorance which is perfect for Mat :) )
2. I believe Mat thinks Rhuidean fulfilled the die to live answer but I think it happened in Caemlyn. IIRC RJ confirmed this. In any case I think he is still connected to the Horn.
3. Leigh you will be missed but I know this group will come up with fun things to discuss while you are gone. Have fun
91. Freelancer
RE: Noal
There certainly remains an effect of whatever Ishamael did to him. Precisely what has never been known with certainty, though Compulsion is a reasonable deduction in this case. Noal remains unable to remember certain things, and when his thoughts stray toward those "prohibited" memories, he obviously loses his ability to focus mentally. Whether that was the end of it, and set in place simply so that Noal couldn't recall details which might end up serving the forsaken's enemies, or Noal is a sleeper (unknown even to himself) of the shadow, will have to be a RAFO.
He has not been near Min for her to have any viewings about him; clearly that is intentional, and he's the reverse of Verin, mole for the shadow. Hmm, except that he keeps doing things which save or protect Mat, or Mat's objectives.

RE: Mat's death
I thought this had been run through the mill already. Did not the author confirm that Mat didn't die in Rhuidean, did not fulfill that part of the Aelfinn's answer until Caemlyn? I was sure that had been settled by now.

RE: Snakes & Foxes
Yes, Mat is the fox who rescues snakes (Aes Sedai). How that parallels the dealings with the Aelfinn & Eelfinn is unknown, but that there is some sneaky underlying connection is pretty certain. It exceeds the bounds of plausibility that Jordan would have done this inadvertently. I think this is one of those things that isn't often mentioned because once you've noticed it you figure everyone does.

JWezy @77
So far, Achmed has only managed to "keel" himself. An embarrassing case of premature detonation. There's no little blue pill for that.
Hugh Arai
92. HArai
Just been re-reading TSR and it's amazing how different they are there. Do we think it's an anomaly that the ones in TSR are an anomaly and very nice or that RJ later decided that they were actually a haughty lot and originally were meant to be nicer?

Personally I think it's the group in Caemlyn that are the anomaly, and that goes for the Aes Sedai, SGs,Kin and Sea Folk. They're all packed together, all very used to being the ones in charge, all very much out of their comfort zones, all under a lot of stress and all convinced the concerns of their group take precedence over the others. The squabbling and general horrendous behaviour is pretty much guaranteed under the circumstances. Members of all the groups seem to be a lot more friendly and appealing away from the others in their own familiar areas, especially if they're undisputedly in charge.
Roger Powell
93. forkroot

- I'm strongly in the camp that Mat "died" in Rhuidean rather than by balefire.

If you check the earlier comments you'll find a reference from RJ that refutes that. Based on the RJ quote, it was Mat's death in Camelyn that fulfilled the prophecy, andconsidering the source we should consider that "settled law"
:-) (I had to do it folks, Rob's a lawyer!)

Jonathan Levy@67

forkroot @ 30
There is circumstantial evidence the Edesina is Darkfriend. It comes from Verin actively refusing to share Traveling with the three Aes Sedai accompanying Mat

I must say I missed that completely. Is it in TGS? I'm not familiar enough with that book yet. Could you please point me towardsthe location?

*** Whited-out text includes a minor amount of information from ToM Chapter 8, select it if you want to read it ***

This is very mild, but it's not until ToM Chapter 8 that we learn (by inference) that Verin did not show the weave for Traveling to any of the three Aes Sedai with Mat. They did go through the gateway though - so it's irrefutable that Verin would have had to arrange for them to not see the weaving somehow, either through subterfuge (who? Verin?) or outright refusal to let them watch.

J Dauro@70

Possibly Verin does not teach the 3 to travel because she feels they might override her, and take Mat to Camelyn against her desire. (As I remember they all outrank her in the Power. Andthey do owe Mat, although you would never know it from their behavior.)

IIRC, Verin was fairly strong in the power, so I doubt any of the three would outrank her. Furthermore, it's not anissue of her teaching them ahead of time, it's an issue of allowing them to see her weave the gateway. Thus whatever deal Verin had with Mat would already be in force.

EDIT: Used white text for spoilerish comment, instead of blank lines. Thanks Wetlandernw!
Elena Vaccaro
94. EarthandIce
Randalator @ 65 : I usually make the attempt to keep an open mind about things, and here I fell in the trap. I guess the line about the ants was the one that made me wonder how the Seanchan could make the decisions on the vagarities (sp?) of insects. And as RomMRob points out @71 we have not really seen the direct results of such omens while we have of ta'veren with all three.

And I will go looking for the Ice and Fire re-read. Mmmm........., maybe not until we have actual word from the publisher Dance of Dragons is on the way.

As for Tuon not getting flack about disappearing, those of us who have read all of the books know she has pulled the disappearing act before, even to the day of her funeral. When I first read the book, I gave her a pass because she was kidnapped, as well as knowing she had to have some sort of inteaction with Mat before the marriage ceromony was completed.

We also do not know all of the customs of the Seanchan. For all we know The Empress may have Consorts other than the Prince of Ravens.

Ahhh Birgit @81: Nice catch on the snake and fox paralell.

And welcome to the new posters. I do not always comment, but do read.
John Massey
95. subwoofer
@Birgit- soo... lunatics it is;)

Wow, Verin, Noal. Wow. I am still holding out against hope that Verin is going to be like Yoda or Ben Kenobi and merge with the Force/Source thing so we will hear her voice from beyond later. Or Verin is camping out in the ToG with Moiraine and Mat gets a 2-fer.

Noal. Well, we have that barrel scene and we know that Noal is filled full of regret for family lost etc. From what I have read on 13D and a few other sites, the Forsaken have messed with him. I don't know if he will have an Ingtar-like moment or if he will fall the rest of the way and cost Mat his eye.

John Massey
96. subwoofer
@Fork- you do realize that we do have to scroll by your post to get to the rest of the posts. That there gap thing just makes the scroll wheel on my mouse work harder.

Not complaining, just sayin'.

Roger Powell
97. forkroot
Hey sub - yeah... I was torn about it, because mentioning a very minor point from ToM Chap 8 is only borderline spoilerish. But Jonathan Levy asked a direct question and I guess I was erring on the side of caution.

I am still holding out against hope that Verin is going to be like Yoda or Ben Kenobi and merge with the Force/Source thing so we will hear her voice from beyond later.
FWIW, I nominate Verin to be a new, somewhat unconventional, Hero of the Horn!
Tess Laird
98. thewindrose
subwoofer - My vote for Noal is the Ingtar'esk like ending. He was messed with, but he has also wrote a book! How could an author mess with another - right;) He will go out helping Mat in some way - I hope!

Getting the one and only sub to 100 one post at a time:)


edit For terrible spelling and typing!(It is good I am not wearing my trading hat today!
Rob Munnelly
99. RobMRobM
@93 I hate it when someone pulls a controlling precedent out of their intestinal cavity. Darn you Forkroot.
Valentin M
100. ValMar
Very nice catch Birgit @ 81. Really elegantly set up by RJ. Again. Can't wait to see just how it will play out.
And the hunny goes back to Europe!
John Massey
101. subwoofer
Basics posting 1o1.

If you are not paying attention, you miss 100.


@Fork, no worries- it is what it is:)
Verin- yes, she could manipulate the heck out of the enemy. "What? Did I say that? Oh no, I didn't mean to imply"
Hand waving immitating bird in flight ensues. Enemy baffled, gets taking down with hockey stick...

@Wind- I am hoping for an Ingtar like ending myself. I re-watched the Moiraine clip, and geeze, it gets me every time. Hopefully Thom has it figured out in the end and is watching Mat's back.

Thomas Keith
102. insectoid
What's all this about a proxy for Leigh! No way!

New posters: Welcome! There is leftover birthday cake (three kinds), oatmeal raisin cookies, and peanut butter fudge in the bunker. Or So I've Heard.

JL @67: Entertaining Wall! ;)

Birgit @81: Nice catch!

Sub @83:

...do you folks have an encyclopedic knowledge of these books

Well, some of us do. ;)

Sub @101: With Leigh on vacay, there's always 200. And 300. And 400. ;)

Mike McCaffrey
103. earlgrey
HArai@92 You need to add that not only do they all think their group takes precedence, they believe that every other group is getting precedence over theirs.
Sam Mickel
104. Samadai
And how do we get to those 300 and 400's and higher. Let's see. We can discuss. Perrin spanking Faile, while Cadsuane Spanks Rand, pinches Mat on the bottom calling him duckling, ranting about the stupidity of hairy chested men, While Berelain the hussy sleeps around with Our main trio of heroes, who are contemplating banning wearing swords, cause swords don't kill people, trollocs kill people. And we can blame it the rampant sexism that is everywhere.
Roger Powell
105. forkroot
One weakness of the Ingtar/Noal(Jain) analogy is that Jain never turned from the light AFAWK. Yes, Ishy laid some compulsion on him, so he may have unwittingly served the DO's ends (and he may still, although I hope not).

Ingtar went over to the DO, then experienced regrets (ala Tomas, Verin's warder). He redeemed himself at the end though, and I still get goose bumps reading Rand's final words to him.
Ron Garrison
106. Man-0-Manetheran
Snakes and Foxes/Aelfinn and Eelfinn: Well, I know I was always confused, but I just assumed I missed something somewhere. I had no idea that it had never been mentioned. Good catch, Leigh! Happy vacation! Don't accidently leave your advance copy of ToM on the plane!

Be'Lal - I think Selucia's talk of omens was directed at Tuon. This and several references in the next book make me think that Tuon believed that this was destiny. She had gotten Tylin out of the way, and whether she planned on going with Mat, or "went along" with the kidnapping is probably moot. She sure as heck didn't really fight it hard.

lostinshadow - Yes Mat & Tuon's marriage was foretold and that's why he said "she's my wife." What wasn't foretold was that by saying it three times, his part of the marriage vow was completed. Dun!
Jonathan Levy
107. JonathanLevy
Randalator @ 65
I think you're absolutely right, and I also think RJ did this deliberately. Of course, there were one or two cases when Tuon retroactively decided that Seleucia must have miscounted the ants, so maybe her methods are not quite as reliable as Min's. But yes, we are biased towards the explanations we've gotten used to, and we don't take the Seanchan's seriously.

I think there's a parallel here with the Seanchan's prophecies. We've been hearing parts of the Karaethon cycle since book 1. It never mentions Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne. Therefore, we conclude that the Seanchan have corrupted their prophecies to flatter themselves. But what if a damane did truly foretell this?

Also, let me add another example to reinforce your point (not that it need any reinforcing). At the end of one of the books (LoC, I think) Mat is dicing in a tavern in Ebou Dar and has some bad luck, and mutters that at this rate the DotNM is going to come and claim him any minute. The guy sitting next to him is a Seanchan spy, and in the epilogue we learn that he interpreted that as an omen that the Corenne will succeed. Well guess what, he was right!

JWezy @ 77
You're just a stinking Halloween decoration! ;)

aspeo @ 78
We have a scene somewhere in KoD where Noal is in the middle of a sentence and suddenly stops, and his face goes blank. It just screams 'Compulsion kicking in!!!'. Combine that with Ishamael's ability to plant future instructions which are only activated under certain conditions (remember what happened to Bors/Jaichim in aCoS when he saw Mat?)... I agree it's a scary combination. Of course, when Noal was reprogrammed Ishy didn't know anything about Rand/Mat/Perrin, so maybe the amount of damage he can do is limited. I'm guessing he was just programmed to deliver his message and not reveal Ishamael.

Andvari @ 79
Seeing the Sea Folk channellers escape would have really raised our general opinion

And the more of them I would have seen die, the more I would have appreciated them!

subwoofer @ 82
I think you out-subtled me. I was referencing Monty Python and the Holy Grail. But now I'm confused.

birgit @ 85
Re: Encyclopedia WOT's color-coded plotlines.
I love that feature. It's so useful and clever after you see it, but if I hadn't seen it I never would have thought of it in a million years.

forkroot @ 93
Re: Verin & Travelling - Thanks for the ref. :) I thought the spoiler warning was sufficient, as long as it doesn't wind up being used more than once or twice per thread. I hope this didn't cause anyone else any grief, as it was on my behalf.

insectoid @ 102
You're just flattering me because I've adopted your excellent format for addressing many people in one post :).

Samadai @ 104
Sorry, no pillow friends will only get you to 250, 300 tops.
Eric Hughes
108. CireNaes
In regards to Noal I have this strange feeling that he's going to reactivate, try to hurt team light, and ends up killing Olver, Moiraine, or Thom. Don't know why, but there it is.
Ron Garrison
109. Man-0-Manetheran
Wetlandernw: Deconstructing Lidya's Foretelling:
"Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other."
"marry you and carry you away" - check
"marry you and set you free" - hmmmm. Any ideas on how Mat will set her free? I think that expression is too ominous to just mean he'll let her go again.

Jonathan Levy - Monty Python FTW @ 67 "He is no more!"

Birgit @85 - Very observant you are.

Samadai @104 - Now ya done it.
Daniel Hanley
110. dmhman749
To Jonathan Levy @ 107, the guide outright says that Ishy(as Hawkwing's councilor) sent altered Karaethon Cycles with the Seanchan invasion. So...the whole kneeling thing is just wrong.

As for the omens, I have considered this, and am withholding judgement for now. Certainly it may be possible to read the pattern through omens. On the other hand, it is generally pretty obvious that the state of things are pretty aweful in the world in the gathering storm, so when you know things are bad, you start looking for bad omens. So just because they found a terrible omen doesn't mean it is actually a valid form of seeing the future. Or it might be. I dont know.
111. Freelancer
M-o-M @109

"marry you and set you free" - hmmmm. Any ideas on how Mat will set her free? I think that expression is too ominous to just mean he'll let her go again.

Mat agreed to let Tuon go with Furyk Karede, a member of the Deathwatch Guard whom Tuon trusts like no other. Since you referenced a checklist, that's what is going on in Tuon's head:

1. Remembers Hawkwing's face
2. Carried me away
3. Commands the Band of the Red Hand
4. Set me free

That is the moment that she decides to complete the marriage vows, which to me proves the point.

Jonathan Levy mixed his Python references @67. Holy Grail & Dead Parrot.

Samadai @104

That's weak. Why, there must at least six or seven groups you didn't come within a mile of offending. In the words of George Carlin, if you're gonna play, PLAY!
M Anderson
112. DevilsAdvocate
Why does everyone except me seem to know about Ishy using Compulsion on Noal? Is this somewhere in the books and I've just completely missed it or is this extra-textual information? I've seen it referenced more than once in the comments, but do not remember reading it in the books themselves.

Help, please!
Daniel Hanley
113. dmhman749
to forkroot @ 93, first, yes, verin is one of the more powerful aes sedai(one rank below Moiraine and pre-stilled Siuan, if i remember correctly). In fact, i think she is in the lowest rank powerful enough to Travel. Of course, none of that matters, because the three aes sedai could have linked and certainly been powerful enough to Travel if they knew the weave.

But i think we are forgetting something...We see the main characters see weaves a single time and be able to casually use them from then on, but that ISN'T normal. Most of the main char channies(Rand, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, etc) are extremely gifted in the speed at which they learn, not just in the power they can channel with(though there probably is some correlation). But anyway, your average Aes Sedai would require seeing a weave multiple times for all but the simplist weaves to learn it, and a Gateway is VERY complicated. So there is no reason that Verin didn't just weave the thing in front of them, but too quickly for them to really know it well enough to reproduce it. Remember Rand being impressed that Taim could reproduce the Travelling weave after only seeing it once? It was one of the main evidences of the Taimandred theory back in the day, since people assumed he probably already knew the weave or he wouldn't have been able to reproduce it after only seeing it once(which still supports minion taim).

Of course, Verin could have actively taught them, but shes Verin...she is cautious and sneaky by nature. The fact that she didn't go out of her way to teach some random Aes Sedai an important weave is not evidence they are darkfriends. And the fact that they don't know the weave doesn't mean that Verin actively tried to hide it, it just means they are not one of the handful of most naturally skilled channelers alive.
John Massey
114. subwoofer
@Jl- so what is it- farmers or realtors that have you discombobulated? Farmers are salt of the earth and realtors well.... ah... I see.

Marry you and set you free-
There was this whole thing where Tuon was thought an imposter or there was a price on her head and Mat did not know whom to trust. Mat got Tuon past enemy lines and sacrifices himself and the band and some of the Deathwatch Guard so Tuon could claim the throne. ....

And I thought it was Rand that got to Ingtar. When Ingtar found out that Rand didn't give flying er... care at a rolling doughnut about the Horn or glory or any of that, Rand was putting life and limb on the line for a friend, that, to me, triggered something inside of Ingtar. "The Dragon's motivations are pure"... or something.

@Sam- you forgot goat killing. We know that the girls get their knickers in a twist over Rand being woolheaded- what if there was a thing going around that Rand did partake of the er... wanton hussy forbidden fruit? I could see there being an angry mob forming to lynch Rand and then B. And I do not see what the big deal is, Berelain is only securing her kingdom.

John Massey
115. subwoofer
@DA- allow me to help a little-

Jain Farstrider Charin: Jain Farstrider is with
Mat, under the alias of Noal Charin. A man of many mysteries, once used may years ago by Ishamael as a 'fool' to spread his tales about the Eye of the World to the Ogier. Jain still shows signs of recent Compulsion. His connection to Lan and Malkier comes from the fact that as a young
man, he was the one to capture the traitor Cowin Gemallan and bring him to Lan's father's justice. It is unknown if Farstrider is or isn't a Malkieri.

-Courtesy of Linda@13D.

Daniel Hanley
116. dmhman749
To subwoofer @ 114, Ingtar didn't know Rand was the Dragon Reborn at the time. If I am remembering correctly, all he knew was that Rand was a person of interest to ishy based on the darkfriend social. He didn't reveal himself in the sky of falme until right after that. But yeah, it was Rand's selfless desire to help his friends instead of seeking glory that convinced him to return to the light. "seek not glory, but only salvation" or something along those lines.
Ron Garrison
117. Man-0-Manetheran
sub - "marry you and set you free" Yeah. That's coming up. I forgot.

re. Jain Farstrider - "shows signs of recent Compulsion" doesn't necessarily mean that he is still under Compulsion. I sure want him to be a good guy.
Jay Dauro
118. J.Dauro
According to the 13th Depository's ratings, Verin comes in at Level 8, just strong enough to Travel by herself. Teslyn and Joline are ranked at Level 10, primarily based on having been Sitters. Edesina is not ranked, but speculation is Level 9 or 10. This is not gospel, but is why I said they outrank Verin.

But the main reason I got into this was to suggest that Verin could have had other reasons for not teaching these 3 how to travel, besides one being a darkfriend. She is trying to control Mat, and she can consider that the 3 could use traveling to defeat her plans for Mat. They also could use traveling to return to the Tower before her, and interfere there.

Even if the three are good enough to learn the weave on sight, Verin could manipulate things to prevent their seeing it. Heck, she's good enough to manipulate the Dark One.

Edit for spelling
119. alreadymadwithtuon
The prophecy goes:
"Beware the Fox that makes the Ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the Man that remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the Man of the Red Hand, for him you will you marry and none other."

So if you want a checklist it'll look more like this:
fox that makes the ravens fly (on signet ring) check
marry you(proclaim the marriage 3x) check
carry you away(went willingly) check
remembers Hawkwing's face (said no but was obviously lying) check
set you free (released to Karede) check
Man of the Red Hand (hmm.... Talmanes wears the red hand but is obviously Toy's retainer, scratch that, there's an entire army wearing the Red Hand all following Toy) check

re: Verin's gateway
Doesn't she know how to reverse her weaves. I was pretty sure everybody in Cadsuane's circle did. And she's certainly close to Cadsuane. She's the only one of the dragonsworn sisters Cadsuane trusts.
Captain Hammer
120. Randalator
Jonathan Levy @107

Of course, there were one or two cases when Tuon retroactively decided that Seleucia must have miscounted the ants, so maybe her methods are not quite as reliable as Min's.

The obvious analogy would be Elaida (or anyone with the Foretelling, really): She excels at completely misinterpreting anything she Foretells. Others with the Talent are in serious danger of misinterpretation, too, but don't do it that spectacularly because they usually don't deal in absolutes but "mights" and "ifs".

Min is a special case because she doesn't interpret. She just knows or doesn't but there's no conscious process to the whole thing. Take Sheriam's halo in TSR for example: Min -> "idunno", we -> "OMFG glory, yo!", reality -> "ker-TCHUNK!"

The way I see it, omens might work about the same way as weather proverbs/listening to the wind (without the actual Talent) do. It's a set of rules which comes from centuries of observation and experience and can be used by basically anyone who cares to learn them. Its accuracy, though, depends heavily on the skill of the individual doing the interpretation and even the best can be wrong occasionally...
Cameron Tucker
121. Loialson
Randalator @120
Take Sheriam's halo in TSR for example: Min -> "idunno", we -> "OMFG glory, yo!", reality -> "ker-TCHUNK!"


BTW I wonder what things Sheriam confessed right before she died. Eggy mentions she said stuff, but am unsure if it's at all important to the story.... It piqued my interest when it was mentioned towards end of tGS.

Any ideas on what it might be from all the gurus out there? Pretty sure it was all vaguearies and such, but still want the dig on that.
Tricia Irish
122. Tektonica
I just had a thought....rare, I know....but I'll throw it out there...

Since Leigh's away for one week, perhaps more, and Towers of Midnight is coming out in about a month...squeeeeeee....perhaps we could use this wee break, here, to go over major plot points/questions, etc. from The Gathering Storm? Get us back up to speed for ToM.....

Have we totally hashed tGS to death, or could we use a refresher? A chapter a day or theme per day? Thoughts?

I know I need a refresher! My brain is so toasted between this reread, the prediction thread, the prologue, Chapter 8 and Malazan....argh. I'm gonna go read tGS again now......
123. Freelancer

I would have hoped Egwene asked Sheriam about the Gray man attack way back in the Tower. Nynaeve pointed out that Sheriam never wondered who had knifed the Gray man, so either she knew something about them being there, or simply chose, because she was Black, to not investigate regarding an agent of the shadow. I'd want to know if she was aware of the other party (Slayer) and any additional details at her disposal.

Tektonica @122

Hey now, no fair calling Tektonica thoughtless. Be nice to one of our favorite commenters.

Hashed to death? Do we even know the meaning of that phrase? I'm still waiting for enough folks to have finished The Way of Kings to start talking about that story...
Tess Laird
124. thewindrose
Tek - that is a good idea. We could do it here, or they actually have opened the Gathering Storm open thread yet again. I believe it is only at #35 at present(unheard of, I tell ya!) It is the actual open spoiler review by Leigh for The Gathering Storm sans the 1000's of comments from us.

Julian Augustus
125. Alisonwonderland
JL @67:

But I think Egeanin freaked out not because her toes were visible, but because a shift is a bit like what a shea dancer wears, and nothing
could be more humiliating than appearing like a shea dancer.

A check of the quote I provided @50 shows that RJ took pains to let us know that Egeanin was NOT dressed anything like a shea dancer (very sheer see-through diaphanous dresses). If anyone's dress was close to a shea dancer's, it was Nynaeve, with her thin silk shift. RJ tells us that Egeanin was wearing a considerably longer and thicker LINEN shift. Yet, she looked to die of mortification because the men were looking at her in her shift. Her reaction was pure prudery, methinks.
Wayne Wilson
127. stylusmobilus
Having another discussion on TGS is about as pointless as fossicking for nuggets at the local gold field around here. Aand...

...since that comprises the whole town I live in, and people still regularly find good gold here, even at the chinamans' diggings (they leave nothing if they can help it) that is so worthwhile. Did anyone help Elza Penfell get hold of the Domination Band? If so, who? I reckon she had help, and I don't really know who to suspect, yet. Time for a new reread.
Cameron Tucker
128. Loialson
Hmm, maybe the other black sister that was with Rand Eg saw on Verin's list? Unsure right now. Don't think we got enough info, like we were on El's mystery murders til KoD.
129. Freelancer
Shaidar Haran told Elza where to find the Domination Band; provided guidance about defeating Cadsuane's wards; ordered her to free Semirhage, hand over to her the "jewelry", and inform Semirhage to remove the Compulsion (Verin's "Lite" version) from her brain. These things are known, if not all of the details involved.
Thomas Keith
130. insectoid
Sam @104: Oh dear... run, Bela, run! ;)

JL @107:

You're just flattering me because I've adopted your excellent format for addressing many people in one post :).

Well, actually I did find the comment entertaining. As far as the format goes, it's been made easier to adopt with the new text box thingumawhatsit... but you've taken it a step further with linking to user profiles.

Wind @124: But our 1000's of comments gave it character. (As well as random crashes, intermittent bandwidth gridlock, and mysterious error messages! Okay, I may be exaggerating a bit.)

Alice Arneson
131. Wetlandernw
thewindrose @47 - Elayne vs. Tuon going AWOL - Want my opinion? I think it's because most readers don't like Seanchan in general and couldn't care less if her disappearance messes things up. Along with that, we don't really know much about her at this stage, and if she stayed in Ebou Dar we never would. Alternatively, since Mat is fated to marry her, if she stayed in Ebou Dar he might have to as well, and most readers will take anything that gets Mat out of that town for good. Oh, and don't forget the number of readers who just don't like Elayne and like to point out all the things she does wrong. Tuon hasn't developed quite the level of animosity among the readers that Elayne has - she's a newbie, after all... ;) Oh, and all the readers that hate the Succession plotline, and can't help thinking that if Elayne had been in Caemlyn sooner maybe it could have been avoided.

I noticed a lot of people firmly stating their opinions as fact in several regards on this post. Hmmm...

No, I won't go there. Not tonight. I think I'll go to bed instead. Fortunately Freelancer answered most of them already. Freelancer FTW!!

Just had a funny thought - What if the DO and his minions don't realize that Verin was a mole for the light, and he thinks she's valuable enough to put into a new body? Oh, help. I don't think I shoulda thunk that...

forkroot @93 - You can also just put your spoiler quote in "white text" and tell people to highlight to read it. Then it's totally up to them. Also @97 - I'd love to see Mat's face when he blows the Horn and Verin rides down the mist with Hawkwing & Co.

Man-o-Manetheran @109 - (expanding on Freelancer's comment @111) - Tuon interprets Mat's decision (KoD ch 36, Under an Oak) to send her back with Karede as the fulfillment of "marry you and set you free" - and also the last thing to be fulfilled - whereupon she completes the marriage ceremony with "Matrim Cauthon is my husband. Matrim Cauthon is my husband. Bloody Matrim Cauthon is my husband. That is the wording you used, is it not?" LOL!

dmhman749 @110 - However, the guide can be in error, having been compiled by a bunch of historians who are... less than infallible.

DevilsAdvocate @112 - Compulsion is inferred by some as "what Ishamael did to Noal" but it is, AFAIK, not confirmed knowledge. We may or may not RAFO. This includes Linda's opinion @ 13D - "signs of recent Compulsion" may be true, or may be a misinterpretation of the symptoms. We all have our opinions.

Freelancer @123 - I did finally finish The Way of Kings (Saturday), but haven't had time to put thoughts together for discussion. Soon!! Where?
133. Freelancer
Huh? What'd I do this time? ::glances left, right, down...shrugs::

Notice: No dead parrots were actually harmed in the making of this thread. Professional stunt dead parrot on a closed course. Do not attempt this at home. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Hey Torie. Torie? TORIE! I know you're back there listening. Any chance of a Way of Kings (better yet a Stormlight Archive) discussion thread, or does Tor not believe there's enough interest yet? I mean, when was the last time you guys published a 1,000+ page novel? Just saying...
Jonathan Levy
134. JonathanLevy
dmhman749 @ 110
the guide outright says that Ishy(as Hawkwing's councilor) sent altered Karaethon Cycles with the Seanchan invasion. So...the whole kneeling thing is just wrong.

Hmmm... I hadn't remembered that. So the Seanchan versions are suspect, a priori.

Man-0-Manetheran @ 117
I think what was meant was that 'Jain recently showed signs of still being under compulsion', not that he 'showed signs of recently being under compulsion'.

J.Dauro @ 118
She is trying to control Mat, and she can consider that the 3 could use traveling to defeat her plans for Mat.

Hmmmm... interesting!

Randalator @ 120
The obvious analogy would be Elaida (or anyone with the Foretelling, really): She excels at completely misinterpreting anything she Foretells.

I agree, to a certain extent.
Min is a special case because she doesn't interpret. She just knows or doesn't but there's no conscious process to the whole thing. Take Sheriam's halo in TSR for example: Min -> "idunno", we -> "OMFG glory, yo!", reality -> "ker-TCHUNK!"

I agree that Min is a special case when she knows; but when she doesn't know, she's just like foretellings or omens. This example shows one of those rare cases when Min can be completely misleading, and is quite different from most of her visions. It's true that in this case Min didn't misinterpret her vision (but we did), but that's because of her character, not her ability.

The main reason I find the omens less convincing is that the foretellings are of significant events (the Dragon is Reborn. Pain and division come to the whole world), whereas Tuon's multitude of omens are very vague, on trivial subjects, and easy to reinterpret after the fact. Each time she can't twist the predition to fit the facts she happily twists the facts to fit the actual result.

If in a year you get 5 apparently clear-cut foretellings, and later discover 1 was a misinterpretation, I can say that the method is still valid but you have to be more careful. If in a year you see 500 omens, and most of them are "Oh be careful-hey nothing happened-yeah, because I was careful", but for 100 of them there's no cop-out and you have to say "hey I miscounted the ants AGAIN", then there's something wrong with the method.

The way I see it, omens might work about the same way as weather proverbs/listening to the wind (without the actual Talent) do. It's a set of rules which comes from centuries of observation and experience and can be used by basically anyone who cares to learn them. Its accuracy, though, depends heavily on the skill of the individual doing the interpretation and even the best can be wrong occasionally...

(Rant warning) Personally, I consider centuries of observation and experience to be a very risky proposition without the light of the scientific method. The Romans used to foretell the future by examining bird entrails - based on centuries of observation and experience. As late as 1815 surgeons were attempting to heal gunshot wounds by opening a vein - based on centuries of observation and experience.

Freelancer @ 123
Hashed to death?

If it's been hashed to death then it's just ripe for a bit of kicking, no?

Alisonwonderland @ 125
I'm not saying she was actually dressed like a shea dancer. I'm saying that in her mind her clothing was much too much like a shea dancer's, because it was a white dress and she had nothing under it. She even says "I am no shea dancer", if I'm not mistaken. BTW, I don't think this rules out prudery as the explanation - I believe this case is a good example of her prudishness. Another woman might have thought that being associated with a Shea dancer is an excellent opportunity to tease the guys. But I also think that if, say, her shift was green rather than white, her reaction might not have been so extreme.

insectoid @ 130
Glad you enjoyed it :) But the linking to user profiles is not being done intentionally - I think when I copy/paste a name directly into the edit-box, I get a link, but if I go through a program like notepad, then I don't.

Wetlandernw @ 131
I'd love to see Mat's face when he blows the Horn and Verin rides down the mist with Hawkwing & Co.

Haw Haw Haw! Brilliant idea.
135. pilvi
Just a thought: Rand has lost a hand and it's almost a fact that Mat will lose an eye, so what will Perrin lose? His mind? Or his other half? (Die Faile, die! Just kidding.)
Thomas Keith
136. insectoid
Free @133:

Notice: No dead parrots were actually harmed in the making of this thread. Professional stunt dead parrot on a closed course. Do not attempt this at home. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Yes indeed—after all, they had to nail it to the perch! ROFL!

JLevy @134:

I think when I copy/paste a name directly into the edit-box, I get a link, but if I go through a program like notepad, then I don't.

That's not to say it isn't still a clever idea. (See link above.)

137. AndrewB
An unanswered TGS question: When Mat went to Hinderstap, he brought 5 Redarms with him. Three of them followed the Aes Sedai. When all hell broke loose, there was neary a mention of these three Redarms. What happended to them? I know that is not important to the plot in the remainder of the series. Nevertheless, I would like to have known what their fates were.

Second question: The remaining Bloodknives will have to be dealt with. I will refrain from posting any additional critiques/harangues on the Bloodknives topic until Leigh reaches this point on the re-reads. Suffice it to say that as a plot development, I do not like it.

Other than a minor ToM spoiler below, all I have left to say is the following: "Jalapeno on a stick"

Thanks for reading my musings,

p.s. minor ToM spoiler below

In Chapter 8, Teslyn tod Mat that she and the other Aes Seadai were leaving to go to Tar Valon. It was Mat who offerred her horses. Tesyln did not say that she, Edesina or Joline could not make a gateway due to Verin not showing then the weaves.
138. Gorbag
Lidya's Foretelling:

Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free.
Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other.

Bah, rats, foiled again! I always thought it referred to Colonel Mustard in the Conservatory with the mice and figs!
Jonathan Levy
139. JonathanLevy
pilvi @ 135
Perrin lost his reason when he met Faile, his sense of proportion when she got kidnapped, and he'll lose his only chance to break free of her when Berelain meets Galad.
Nazley Frieslaar
140. Nazley
Insectoid @ 102

Thanks for the cake, especially as its my birthday today! Yep, I just made it as one of those wonderful September people.

Tektonica @ 73
So, it turns out I'm grey already (I registered for the newsletter). Only I used Nazley, so goodbye QSNaz. I'm the poster previously known as QSNaz lol
Rob S
141. RobSS
Jay Dauro
142. J.Dauro
AndrewB @137

I believe BWS has said that we will learn more of these Redarms.

And hi Jose. On a stick.
M Anderson
143. DevilsAdvocate
Wetlandernw @ 131

Thanks! That makes a little more sense, though I'm not sure I buy Noal's behavior as evidence of Compulsion. He's like 75,513 years old. Trailing off in the middle of a sentence and losing a train of thought is not that strange for someone of his advanced years.
Tricia Irish
144. Tektonica
Wind@124: Excellent idea and an appropriate place for tGS discussion.....guess I missed one of the many WoT threads! Too many choices!! So here or there...I care not.

PS: Sorry I went off traveling without you....next trip, ok? I'll give you the heads up.

Happy Birthday Nazley! And goodbye QSNaz. You need to post more often, so you remember who you are! LOL.
Valentin M
145. ValMar
DA @ 143

Some of the folks here can tell us what this is like ;)
Birgit F
146. birgit
Just a thought: Rand has lost a hand and it's almost a fact that Mat will lose an eye, so what will Perrin lose?

Rand is Tyr, the one-handed god, Mat is Odin, who gave an eye for knowledge (Moiraine's knowledge that will help Rand?), Perrin is Thor, he has a hammer.
Tess Laird
147. thewindrose
Maybe Perrin will lose the beard;)

OK, I know that one was bad - Lo siento!

Wetlandernw at 131 - that is what I figured too.

The super girls did have a knack at getting snarled up in traps in the beginning. (Why it's almost like they were getting kidnapped! But by bad guys instead of Mat! So Tuon knew that Mat was a good guy? (Think about what she really new about him. He was Tylin's pretty, got hanged for an ashanderei, and maybe he was taking sweets to a damane.)
And even though she had major misgivings about Suroths ambitions with regards to the Empire, well she could just fix that when she got back from this important mission(man hunt on a quest for a stud - yes I know bad taste again!) I enjoy almost everything in these books, but not at the same time!
I will bookmark the thread I mentioned again(I am unable to link at the moment) - it is fun to read Leigh's comments from tGS again:)

Lucas Vollmer
148. aspeo
Freelancer re:tWoK
I have been waiting for more people to start discussing the book myself. I think it will take time, especially since the biggest BS fans are as much or more interested in wanting to talk about the overall cosmology of his different books. I think that is interesting but there is only so far you can go with it after a while.

Also I think I need to go back and do a more thorough re-read before I will be able to discuss the book on a good level. There is definitely a lot of information in all of those pages!

It's kind of amazing to realize how spoiled I am when I start thinking about all of the resources and discussion that surrounds an established series with a huge fanbase like WOT. When I look for stuff on the tWoK I have to keep remembering that this is only the beginning of an epic series, and that the discussion will only get bigger and better as more books are added to the Stormlight Archive over time.

Sorry for kinda going off topic :)
Daniel Hanley
149. dmhman749
to wetlandernw @ 131 about ishy messing up the prophesies of the dragon according to the guide...Yeah, the guide is probably wrong in some places, but this seems one of the least likely places for that to be the case. The historians who wrote the guide talk about corrupted prophesies sent over to Seanchan, then people return from seanchan with different prophesies? Also, knowing what we do, it seems very in character for the type of stuff Ishy was up to for him to have thrown in a corrupted set of the prophesies at that point.

Asfar as I know, all of the prophesies of the dragon were made back around the breaking, or shortly after, and compiled during the time of the Ten Nations. If a new prophesy was made over in Seanchan, they wouldn't have just tacked it in with an already completed book of prophesy. Also, several Seanchan(can't remember if it was Tuon or someone else at this point) have commented on the fact that there seem to be a number of minor differences between their 'real' version and the Randland version. Including the line about the nine moons being bound to the Dragon Reborn. Which means that things were taken out of the prophesies the Seanchan have, not just things added, prooving that there were alterations, not just a few additions.

In short, we have no reason to suspect that the Guide is wrong in this instance, and every reason to believe that it was right and the Seanchan versions are simply corrupted and incorrect.

To Jonathan Levy @ 139, while I, like almost everyone else, hate Faile and hope she dies, I don't really see why people think that Perrin would be so much better off with Berelain. Apart from the possibility that she might be a darkfriend, she is at least as manipulative and almost as bitchy. We haven't seen it as much because Perrin didn't end up with her, but I can easily see her turning out just as bad if he had married her instead of Faile.
Tricia Irish
150. Tektonica
Valmar@145: Now be nice!

Birgit@146: Perrin is Thor, he has a hammer.
If I had a hammer.......

Sub and Windrose and I are trying to get some GS discussion going over on the reposted GS Leigh review thread, in prep for ToM....y'all come on over.....we've got some time on our hands with Leigh's hiatus!
John Massey
151. subwoofer
@dmhman- well, yes, but in terms of apparel, although we were subjected to a few scenes of Faile naked *shudder* we still have not come to the scene were the straps on Berelain's dress actually comes off.

I think she uses double sided tape.

She cheats.

Valentin M
152. ValMar
dm @ 149
I agree with your point on the prophesies. It's the logical thing to assume up until it is directly refuted in the books. This may or may not happen.
On Faile/Berelain/Perrin. Perrin might or might not have been better with Berelain but his experience would've been different. She is not Saldean.

Tek @ 150
Just trying to get advantage of other people's experience and wisdom ;)
Hugh Arai
153. HArai
The two most relevant quotes from Elayne (leaving out the maybe I'll get to hit on Rand bits):

"If you three can go off and have an adventure, you needn't think I am going to stay here and wash dishes, and scrub floors and have some Accepted berating me because I didn't make the fire the exact shade of blue she wanted. Gawyn will die from envy when he finds out."

"I've never had an adventure. I'll bet we won't either of us cry ourselves to sleep on an adventure. And if we do, we will make sure the gleemen leave that part out."

Even Egwene and Nynaeve call her on that, till she proclaims the only way to stop her from going is to tell Sheriam on her.
That's not being kidnapped, that's forcing your way in, and not just in my opinion.

I'll admit the Liandrin vs Mat comparision is a bit unfair, but then I've always wondered how anyone (not just the SGs) could fall for Liandrin when in my opinion she could only be more obvious with an "Evil scheming bitch" sign blinking over her head.
Jay Dauro
154. J.Dauro
IIRC we see at the end of TGS that the Seanchen have been adding to their version of the Prophecies. And I expect that we will find that both sets of prophecies come true (cause RJ likes to mess with our heads. See Min's prophecy about Sheriam. )
Marcus W
155. toryx
I'm a little surprised at all the people who want to see Faile dead. Love her or hate her, you have to be aware that if Faile actually died Perrin would go absolutely berserk and probably die soon after.

Sure, Perrin's love for his wife is rather overwhelming at times but I don't think he deserves to die for it.
Daniel Hanley
156. dmhman749
Well Perrin needs to get over that. His insane levels of love for a woman who is more or less an unlovable person, given everything we have seen of her makes me think less of him. He was one of my favorite characters in the early books, but every interaction he has with Faile, or about Faile, has made me like him a little less. Not to mention all his bitching about leadership and the wolf stuff is getting old.

I'm not saying I want Perrin dead, but if the only way to buy Faile's death is to have Perrin die heroically avenging her, I think I would be ok with that.
John Massey
157. subwoofer
@toryx- yeah, well I suppose so. But can we just nick her a little? Maybe an appendage? Rand loses a hand, Mat loses an eye, Perrin loses... well, I dunno, maybe somebody accidentally wounds her in the throat and Faile is relegated to hand gestures for the rest of the story.

Sandy Brewer
158. ShaggyBella
WOT Spam:
Just a reminder that the eBook of Gathering Storm is now available. It is $9.99 USD and takes only a few minutes to download. Also comes with the cool White Tower, Egwene vs. Raken cover. I have gotten most of the eBooks recently and using the search feature is great. Also they don't take up much room!
Daniel Hanley
159. dmhman749
To subwoofer @ 157, Ohhh...i like that idea. She mentions at some point that she knows the language of fans, so just give her a fan and let her gesture away. Of course, Perrin can't interpret the fans, so he can just ignore her.

I like it.
Sam Mickel
160. Samadai
Well, if her only means of communication is fans, at least there will be a nice breeze........all the time
Karen Jacobs
161. KJacobs
Nazley/QSNaz @ 140: Happy Birthday, and welcome to the bunker!

Sam@160: Love it!
162. Rand Al'Todd
I thought we had come to a consensus that the entire Plotline That Will Never Die was just a set up to establish that
Perrin will do ANYTHING to keep Faille alive.

Faille is to be captured again and Perrin will actually betray Rand as part of a deal to keep her alive. Didn't somebody quote him on another thread as coming out of the Portal Stone Alternate Reality Sample Machine with a statement about "Oh, I didn't really betray you after all." ????? (Or am I mis-remembering again???)

Maybe "She Who Will Not be Balefired" will grab her by mistake while trying for Nyn or Min, then decide to settle for what she has. (Dove in the hand is better than a raven and a rat in the bush!)
Thomas Keith
163. insectoid
Bizarre weather we're having... first a heat wave, now scattered clouds, rain, thunder, and small animals hail. Weird.

Gonna head over to The OST Reloaded to check out what's happening there.

Nazley @140: Happy Birthday! How fortunate!

Tess Laird
164. thewindrose
HArai - When Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne meet up with Liandrin at the Tar Valon Way Gate she is mad at them because Elayne and Min are with them. She says that she had had something worked out for Elayne and Min, but this would work just as well. So had Elayne not gone with them, she would have been dead.

To her saying that she wanted to go an adventure. Well, people are going to read that differently in how they regard Elayne. If you don't mind her, it would seem that she is throwing out a bunch of different pleas to Nynaeve and Egwene and seeing what sticks. And one of the most interesting bits is that Min has a viewing: (tGH Chapter 38 Practice)
"I think she has to come as much as the rest of you. The rest of us. I can see the danger around all of you more clearly, now."

So there is a similarity here in that Elayne has a Min Viewing and Tuon has a damane(Lidya) Fortelling spuring them on.

Just before Liandrin came into the room, Elayne had asked Min if she saw anything, and Min indeed see's something new: (tGH Chapter 38 Practice)
"Danger. You are all in some kind of danger. Or you will be, very soon."

Than Liandrin comes in and kicks Min and Elayne out, and tells Nynaeve and Egwene that Rand and the two other boys are in trouble and need their help. Liandren leaves so that they can get ready and Elayne and Min come back in and want to go as well. And then Min has the second viewing that I reviewed before.

Barry T
165. blindillusion
Insectoid. Small animals, huh? Magnolia weather?
James Jones
166. jamesedjones
162 Rand Al'Todd
Didn't somebody quote him on another thread as coming out of the Portal Stone Alternate Reality Sample Machine with a statement about "Oh, I didn't really betray you after all." ????? (Or am I mis-remembering again???)

It was Mat who grabbed Rand after the portal stone incident, and told him he wouldn't betray him. Perrin just pulled his hands away from his eyes (ready to claw them out), and says something like, "No matter what we do or change, some things are always going to happen."
Warren Soulard
167. Hrothgordo

It was Mat that came out of the Portal Stone telling Rand "I would never betray you. You know I would never betray you, right?".

It basically screamed that Mat had indeed betrayed Rand in those timelines. Pesonally though I think that would have been more a case of Mat betraying that Rand could channel to someone and not acting directly as an agent of the DO.

As to Perrin, there is no way that he betrays Rand directly. I think the Plotline established to him that he can't go mental again. In fact, I think Perrin will face a choice where Faile is in direct danger again and he will be forced to leave her to her own devices to get out of it. It will be heartbreaking for him, but necessary.

On a good note such a move would actually be seen as a strong act of love and respect by Faile herself. Yeah it's crazy, but probably ends with some Saldean farmgirl reference.
Thomas Keith
168. insectoid
Blind @165: Well... needless to say, it's a little startling to hear hail at all when only yesterday it was 90°+ out.

By 'small animals', of course, I meant 'cats and dogs'. ;)

Daniel Hanley
169. dmhman749
Well, the Plotline That Will Never Die had a lot of reasons for existance. It was difficult to actually read through it, but it further established the basis for new Manetheren, it closed out the shaido plot-line, it closed out the Mesema plotline, and it created a foundation on which an actual willingness for the Seanchan to work with Rand instead of believing they have to defeat him and control him can possibly grow out of. None of these had anything to do with Faile, on whom way too much focus was given for such an annoying character, but she did serve as the instigation for the whole thing.

It would be interesting if Perrin was forced to betray Rand to save Faile, so I'm not saying its going to happen, but its not like there are not plenty of other reasons for the whole thing to have happened.
Tricia Irish
170. Tektonica
Valmar@152: Of course I am! Aren't you?

Re: Elayne running off....Good points Windrose....both Min and Lidya are plot movers.

I also think Elayne has no desire to be left behind, doing chores. She's had an exceptionally sheltered life, and needs adventure and a good dose of the real world. Some struggle is character building, pun intended, and she gets to interact with "normal" people in the "real world"....of Randland.

JEJ@166: You are right sir, it was Mat who grabbed Rand and said he would never betray him. There has been quite a bit of speculation regarding Perrin being the actual betrayer, however, given the extremes he's willing to go to for his wife. Maybe it will come down to Perrin saving Faile from Graendal??

I like the Faile with the Fan in the corner waving idea...a lot!
Hugh Arai
171. HArai
thewindrose@164: I fully agree Elayne would likely have snuffed it if she hadn't gone. I didn't think that was in question. But I think if you check that section again you'll see that Elayne deciding to go was what made the viewing of danger clearer to Min.

"Not clearly enough to make it out, but I think it has something to do with you deciding to go. That's why it is clearer; because it is more certain."

As Nynaeve says "That's no reason for her to come".

The only part of Min's viewing that might argue toward her going is that Min also says: "She is linked to-to those boys as much as you, or Egwene, or me."

In any event, when she made the decision to go Elayne had no idea staying would likely have been even more dangerous. If you want to judge based on the results, I think Tuon still comes out ahead since her decision netted her Mat :)

For the record I prefer Elayne to Tuon. You don't have to agree, I was just trying answer why I think Elayne was primarily looking for adventure and Tuon wasn't.
M Anderson
172. DevilsAdvocate
Just because Elayne would have ended up dead if she didn't go with Liandrin is no excuse for her petulant begging to go with the other Super Girls. There's no way she could have known that she would've been dead otherwise. As readers, we can breath a collective sigh that she went and didn't die (or not, depending on your feelings about Elayne), but I don't think it excuses her behavior. That's like a Frankfurter counterexample.

My problem with Elayne's behavior (besides the chin in the air) is that she was effectively breaking the law by haring off on an adventure. Tuon is the brute squad boss and can do whatever she pleases, so I don't think it's a fair comparison.
Barry T
173. blindillusion
At this moment, exactly one year ago, I posted my first comment. (Well, as a registered user anyway. I posted one comment as a red. (Which reminds of this one time I was wearing a red shirt in Korea and this old woman st….))

Oh yeah. 13.
174. alreadymadwithlanguages
Sigh.. the only language that truly seems to work with Faile is the language of spanking and make up forwardness...
Tess Laird
175. thewindrose
Fair enough HArai:) I just was struck by the commonality of the two.

Congrats blindillusion, here's to a new year of commenting;)

Jerry Blair
176. Linekat62
Yea now into my favorite part of Winter's Heart which was the book that started my introduction to WOT. With Mat realizing Tuon is his betroved to be "Daughter of the 9 Moons" his story takes on a new twist, but beware Tuon is still Seanchan. (Death by slow torture might be fun).
Jonathan Levy
177. JonathanLevy
dmhman749 @ 149
The historians who wrote the guide talk about corrupted prophesies sent over to Seanchan, then people return from seanchan with different prophesies? Also, knowing what we do, it seems very in character for the type of stuff Ishy was up to for him to have thrown in a corrupted set of the prophesies at that point.

Granted, all this. But one of the alledged corruptions is that the Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before TG or all is lost. It's difficult to see how Ishy could have put that in 1,000 years earlier, before the armies went across the sea. He has no way of knowing that 1,000 years from now there will be an empire in Seanchan and the emperor will sit on a Crystal Throne and that this Crystal Throne will symbolize his power. The Crystal Throne might have been broken, or lost, or never found, or replaced with the Jade and Suede Throne by an empress 200 years ago who thought it went better with her complexion. This particular prophecy smacks of a genuine foretelling in my opinion.

I'm not saying that there were no additions, or modifications. It's just that this particular addition might be genuine.

To Jonathan Levy @ 139, while I, like almost everyone else, hate Faile and hope she dies, I don't really see why people think that Perrin would be so much better off with Berelain.

I don't think he'd be better off with Berelain, though I realize my previous comment sounded that way. To be honest, I did not have Perrin's interest in mind when I suggested it. I don't particularly want Perrin to be happy. He doesn't deserve it anymore. The only thing I want is for the Perrin-Faile-Berelain triangle to end, some way, any way - but permanently. A few deaths would be ideal; barring that, we'll wait for Galad to save the day.

Maybe after Berelain falls for him completely it'll turn out he's gay. She walks into his tent and finds him lip-locked with Asunawa. Distraught, she flees blindly, falls off a cliff, and lands on Faile, killing both of them. I should write this down.
Skip Ives
178. Skip
Jonathan Levy @177 - Now that's something I would read, and Leigh would finally have the male pillow friends she has been bemoaning the lack of. ;)
Tricia Irish
179. Tektonica
Blind@173: Happy Tor Birthday. You didn't arrive much before me then, and I thought you were an original! Fooled me!

JonathanLevy@177: ROFLOL. I love the cliff part....
180. Freelancer
Oh, Blindillusion is an original, alright.

That is to say, one of a kind, anyway.

Barry T
181. blindillusion
Well Freelancer and Tek, one does try one's best.

That is to say, one likes to keep his friends entertained.

Rob Munnelly
182. RobMRobM
@180 - C'mon Free and Blind, you should know the old elitist grammarian dictum "Abandon hopefully all ye who enter here." *sniff*

p.s. Happy B'day, Blind.

p.p.s. You share the day with one of my many sibs.
Julian Augustus
183. Alisonwonderland
JDauro @154:

And I expect that we will find that both sets of prophecies come true

But how can it? One prophecy says he will bind the nine moons to serve him. The other says he will kneel to the Crystal Throne (in case that is unclear, it means he will serve whoever is occupying the CT). How can both come true? So many posters have invented some ridiculous scenarios to make such mutually exclusive events occur.
Barry T
184. blindillusion
Erp. Should I say anything?

Suuuurrrreeee, why not. 'Tis not my birthday per se, but my first year of commenting here at Tordot.

Thank you for the thought though. Unbirthdays are much cooler any way, as there as so many of them.

And a happy B'day to your sib nonetheless Rob.
Jay Dauro
185. J.Dauro

If I knew how my name would be on book covers. But I am betting that's how it ends up.
Scientist, Father
186. Silvertip
@143 DA

Trailing off in the middle of a sentence and losing a train of thought is not that strange for someone of his advanced years.

The problem I have with your logic here is
Alice Arneson
187. Wetlandernw
Jonathan Levy @134 - "But I also think that if, say, her shift was green rather than white, her reaction might not have been so extreme." Maybe, but if her shift were green the obvious question for the time would have been "who were you expecting to see your shift, that you had one made in green??" Nobody is supposed to see your shift, so they are not made from dyed fabric. Can't see Egeanin doing something so outlandish.

Seriously, though, I don't think "this is too much like what a shea dancer would wear" is the issue. It's mostly a matter of "I can't be seen in my underwear!! What kind of woman do you think I am?" with the shea dancer comment being an example of the kind of woman who doesn't mind being seen in her nuthins.

AndrewB @137 - Brandon answered that question (about the 5 Redarms). He said: RAFO.

DevilsAdvocate @ 143 - FWIW, I'm not at all convinced that Noal is operating under Compulsion. I expect to RAFO.

dmhman749 @149 - regarding the Seanchan version of the prophecies, I have for you two quotations from Brandon Sanderson, this:Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?
Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…
Question: In both?
Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.
And this:
Q. Did Ishamael have a hand in how the Seanchan prophecies have come to differ from those of the westlands?

It appears to me that your absolute confidence that the only reason the two are different is that Ishamael was meddling with the Seanchan version, and that the Randland version is the canon is... simplistic, at best. There's a lot we don't know about it yet. I'm with J.Dauro - I think both versions will prove true, and I'm really looking forward to finding out how. That kind of stuff is what made RJ's story the fascinating read it is - we rarely guess the really good stuff until we read it. I for one am purely happy to read the story that's been written, without trying to second-guess it.

dmhman749 @156 - "Well Perrin needs to get over that. His insane levels of love for a woman who is more or less an unlovable person, given everything we have seen of her makes me think less of him." Well, that's one person's opinion, I guess. Perrin obviously does not find her "an unlovable person" and neither do many readers. As for "getting over" his love for his wife... Excuse me?

Rand Al'Todd @162 - As others have said, that's Mat. In case anyone wants the detail, Mat came out of the Portal Stone adventure saying "Rand, I'd never tell anyone about - about you. I wouldn't betray you. You have to believe that." All Perrin said is "We don't have many choices really, do we, Rand? Whatever happens, whatever we do, some things are almost always the same." So I agree with Hrothgordo, that in some of those other lives Mat betrayed Rand's ability to channel to someone critical. I also agree, from several bases, that
"Perrin will face a choice where Faile is in direct danger again and he will be forced to leave her to her own devices to get out of it. It will be heartbreaking for him, but necessary.

On a good note such a move would actually be seen as a strong act of love and respect by Faile herself. Yeah it's crazy, but probably ends with some Saldean farmgirl reference."

dmhman@749 - Well, I could argue that, but from what I've seen of your posts there's no point.

many@many - Please don't forget the following two points regarding Perrin:

Quoting from Alan Romanczuk, regarding the scene in KoD where Perrin cuts of the Shaido's hand:
What is striking about that is not only the surprise in what happened to Perrin’s personality, but the fact that we see the depths of this man who had been operating at an almost emotionless state, or at least with a single, fixed purpose, which was saving his wife. We see him, the peace-loving blacksmith who, just through fate, is thrown into a position of leadership, suddenly do something that is completely out of character, or that we think is out of character, when in fact it is springing from his depths, something that needs to be done. So, in that scene, we see an inkling of Perrin becoming the person that he needs to be to take part in the Last Battle.

Then, quoting from TGS, some of Perrin's reflections:
He hadn't been a good leader lately. He'd never been a model one, of course, not even when Faile had been there to guide him. But during her absence, he'd been worse. Far worse. He'd ignored his orders from Rand, ignored everything, all to get her back.

But what else was a man supposed to do? His wife had been kidnapped!
He'd saved her. But in doing so, he'd abandoned everyone else. And because of him, men were dead. Good men. Men who had trusted in him...

I think that points toward Perrin realizing that if he's needed for the Last Battle, he'll have to do it. He doesn't have to like it, but he will do what has to be done, even if that means (like I think it will) allowing Faile to be in danger on her own. IMO.

Silvertip @186 - LOL! Nice one. :)
188. Freelancer
dmhman749 @156

To paraphrase, "Extremism in the defense of matrimony is no vice!" ~ AUH2O


I'll see your "If I had a hammer", and raise you a "I'd rather be a hammer than a nail".

Silvertip speaks for many of us. Up to a certain point, anyway...


Well played. Apparently it was your turn. He who has ears...
189. Ingridkj
I've always loved this part of the book. I always enjoy the Prophesies coming true, and even more *how* they come true.

Also, Finland isnt in Scandinavia =P But we still love you Leigh
Jonathan Levy
190. JonathanLevy
Wetlandernw @ 187
... if her shift were green the obvious question for the time would have been "who were you expecting to see your shift, that you had one made in green??"

Well, she wants to be captain of the green, no? Maybe if she's feeling playful in the lingere shop... hm... nah. :)

Seriously, though, I don't think "this is too much like what a shea dancer would wear" is the issue. It's mostly a matter of "I can't be seen in my underwear!! What kind of woman do you think I am?" with the shea dancer comment being an example of the kind of woman who doesn't mind being seen in her nuthins.

I agree with everything you say here. I don't think the two interpretations are at odds with each other - I think they complement each other. How much of Egeanin's prudishness is typical of the upper classes of Seanchan and how much is her own nature? It's not easy to distinguish between the two. But it's not an outlandish notion to suppose that the fact that the lowest level of human property is marked out by making it walk around half-naked has some influence on the prudishness of the upper classes.

In other words, if da'covale wore burkas, Egeanin would be Berelain. :) :) :)

Freelancer @ 188
Can I play too? "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Birgit F
191. birgit
Perrin is single-minded about rescuing Rand, too:

Who can say how far they will have gone, into other lands even, and how many carried off claiming they are gai'shain." A strong odor of contempt came from him at that last, but Perrin understood none of it. What did it matter how much land had to be reconquered - or even how many people died, though that thought came reluctantly, painfully - stacked against Rand, the Dragon Reborn, being taken prisoner to Tar Valon?

LoC ch. 53
James Hogan
192. Sonofthunder
Hmm, not sure if this next is entirely on topic, but ah well. Just noticed that we were talking about Faile a bit(a few comments back), and I wanted to throw my support behind her as well...I don't want to see her dead!! She's actually one of my favorite female characters in the series, but sadly, her POVs in the past 3-4 books have tended to be my least favorite, precisely because of the company she (unwillingly) keeps.


But Faile herself, as a character, I'm quite fond of. And I can see why Perrin fell for her. I'd be crazy insane for grief in his place. Sure, Faile's not perfect and acts bewilderingly towards Perrin at times...but hey, what woman is ever perfectly understandable anyways? *ducks and runs* Seriously though, just wanted to put my banner up in support of Faile. She's an admirable person.
193. Freelancer
Jonathan Levy @190

Play all you wish, but umm, the other two were from songs, so BZZZZZZT, wrong answer, better luck next time.

Birgit @191

You go! Props for Perrin...
Daniel Hanley
194. dmhman749
To Wetlander @ 187 hmm....I had not read those quotes about the prophesies before. My belief that the whole kneeling before the crystal throne is something Ishy added is suitably shaken. I still lean towards that, but it is very possible I am wrong.

As to how Ishy could have known about the Crystal throne...well, it is a powerful ter'angreal, and perfect for a ruler, so it makes sense people would keep it around, and whoever wins over in Seanchan would keep it. Also, if there is a prophesy floating around about the Dragon Reborn kneeling before the crystal throne, that would be even more incentive for whoever rules to sit on it. Any ruler would want the Dragon Reborn to kneel before them. So I can see Ishy seeing it as very likely that the Crystal Throne would still be around, and putting that line in the prophesies means that he puts whoever sits in it directly against the Dragon Reborn. And if something does happen to it. *shrug* it just becomes another weird prophesy no one understands. It would be a zero risk, high potential reward type thing for Ishy to add to a set of prophesies he is already messing with. But I could be wrong. I too wait with anticipation to find out, because however it happens, its going to be interesting.

As for:
I for one am purely happy to read the story that's been written, without trying to second-guess it.

Thats pretty much the point of these threads. We try and predict what will happen based on what we have seen so far. You believe both prophesies will come true, I believe the Seanchan version is wrong. We will both read and find out. *grin*

As for the whole Faile issue, well, I might have overstated things, but I just don't like her or anything she touches.
Marcus W
195. toryx
subwoofer @ 157:
But can we just nick her a little? Maybe an appendage? Rand loses a hand, Mat loses an eye, Perrin loses... well, I dunno, maybe somebody accidentally wounds her in the throat and Faile is relegated to hand gestures for the rest of the story.

*laugh* Unfortunately, I think Faile would burst into flames or something if she didn't get to shout at Perrin at least once a day or so. She'd not likely survive the experience of losing her ability to speak.

Personally, I don't hate Faile but I can't really see what Perrin sees in her either. Then again, I don't see what Rand sees in Elayne or Aviendha or Mat sees in Tuon or Lan sees in his wife. The only mainstream female character I find remotely attractive on a personality level is Min and even she strains my temper from time to time.

As far the betrayals go, I don't believe either Mat or Perrin is going to betray Rand. Rand might believe that they have but in reality I don't think it'll actually happen.
Tricia Irish
196. Tektonica

I'll call you on your "I'd rather be a hammer than a nail", and raise you a "When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

--I didn't realize your quote was from a song too. ??

Edit: I see JonathanLevy got there too!
John Massey
197. subwoofer
Oooo Oooo- yeah, I've become one of those girls- a new game? Can I play? Hammers... not going with the obvious, Hammer time... hows about-?

@toryx- well, maybe Faile can relegate herself to plucking Perrin's chest hairs or tugging at his beard. Perrin was always the calm, quiet, thoughtful type. You know, the type that snaps, becomes an axe murderer and then the neighbors say ," we never saw that coming, he was so nice". Maybe Faile drives him over the edge, that is her purpose in this story, I can't see any other reason in the universe when Perrin has the pull of ta'veren going for him, he has to attract the Nanny.

Daniel Hanley
198. dmhman749
Eh...I get most of the relationships. Rand liking Aviendha makes sense...They spent a lot of time together in books four and five, and I can see what starts as an appreciation of Aviendha being the only person around who doesn't treat him like The Dragon Reborn, or He Who Comes With The Dawn growing into love.

Min...well, that just started as a friendship that grew from that, so I don't have a problem there.

The only one of Rand's women that makes no sense is Elayne. Lets see...they meet for one afternoon in Caemlyn, Elayne fantasizes about him for a year or so. Then they meet again in Tear, and spend...what...less than a week making out in corners of the Stone? At what point, exactly, did they fall in love?

Nynaeve and Lan...well, its a little fast, but they do spend a lot of time together, and what starts as a respect for eachother's tracking and forestry skills can grow from there, then they spend a lot of time together between books one and two, so i can tentatively accept that.

Tuon and Mat...eh...well, they both know they are supposed to end up marrying eachother, so they are pretty much looking for reasons to like eachother. I'm not sure that they truely are in love at this point, for that matter, though I guess they are getting there.

For Perrin and Faile...yeah, I don't really get it either. Yeah, they spend a lot of time getting to know eachother, but she is a relentless harpy the entire time. I would say he must be a closet masochist, but we have seen his thoughts, and he doesn't appear to enjoy it...

As for Perrin or Mat betraying Rand, I also think its pretty unlikely. Perrin still has to save Rand again, so between that and gathering his forces and moving to the blight, there just isn't time for him to betray Rand. Unless he does choose to save Faile instead of Rand, and thats what leads to Rand getting killed, which would be interesting, but the indications from tGS point towards him growing beyond that, so it seems unlikely. Then Mat is pretty focused on saving Moiraine and making the dragons atm. There isn't much time for him to do anything else before taking over the armies of the light. And he is probably the only general that both the wetlanders(with the legend of the Band of the Red Hand still growing) and the Seanchan(as the Prince of the Ravens) will accept as their overall general.
James Hogan
199. Sonofthunder
I have to say, I think part of the attraction to Elayne for Rand is tied to his old relationship with Egwene, and his Two Rivers attitude toward relationships in general. When they hang out in the Two Rivers, Egwene(Rand's bride-to-be) basically transfers ownership of Rand from herself to Elayne. Rand sees a pretty girl(who also happens to be Daughter-Heir). He is what, 21? Normal male responses to a pretty girl's flirtations ensue in their make-out week back in 1999. Or whenever.

He once was "tied" to Egwene. She was the only woman he ever really considered marrying. Elayne now neatly slides into that slot. Rand's not the modern college frat guy of today and thus doesn't forget about her the moment she's gone and chase after another girl. Of course, he does end up chasing Avi(by accident!), but that's another story. But in my mind, at that point in the story, Rand basically considered himself and Elayne one tiny step short of betrothed, and that never changes. Despite his, um...interactions with Avi and Min.

And speaking from(pretty recent) experience, it doesn't take a 21-year-old guy much to convince himself he's in love. Even less if it's mutual. And you don't see her for a long time. And she's extremely mysterious and confusing(which for some strange reason, is exactly what we guys fall for).

So speaking from Rand's approximate age, I find his feelings towards Elayne pretty normal. Rand going with three girls at once, not so normal(can't fathom that), but hey, thankfully that's not prophesied about me.

Edited to say...please somebody hurry and grab 200! It is tempting me exceedingly.
Tess Laird
201. thewindrose
Dang, Europe is holding on to the hunny marks. ValMar got 100 too! subwoofer, is this what happens when you're juggling to many threads?

And WoT related, ummm - Hey Mat's got his line down "I'm just a gambler."

Daniel Hanley
202. dmhman749
To Sonofthunder @ 199, But Rand doesn't even know about Egwene's agreement to pass Rand to Elayne (which is pretty messed up, when you get down to it ). So in his mind, there is no pass off. The woman he had already decided he wasn't going to marry tells him she doesn't love him, leaving him free to make out with the hot princess who apparently likes him all of the sudden. Which is fine, but I don't see how it equals a direct transference of thinking hes going to marry Egwene (which he didn't anymore anyway) to thinking he is going to marry Elayne.

I am 25, so I get it too...I certainly wouldn't say no to a woman who is as beautiful as Elayne is supposted to be, but that doesn't mean you fall in love with her in less than a week. The book treats it like a normal thing too. Its not even like the book is trying to push the idea of love at first sight(at least from Rand's end...Elayne seems to do exactly that). Rand meets her, thinks she is attractive, but with no further thought beyond a few normal sexual fantasies before he is suddenly portrayed as in love with her, with no inbetween at all.

As for the going with three girls at once...well, as far as I can tell, he is only effectively actually dating one(Min). Elayne is just an occasional booty call(and not even that, recently), and he doesn't even see Avi. We will see where it goes eventually, but its not like he is actively trying to go out with three women at once at this point.
Valentin M
203. ValMar
Windrose @ only 201
I was merely answering the desperate plea of a fellow poster. Always glad to help. I wasn't hiding in the bushes, waiting to pounce like lame chicken on a ripe tomato. Honest.

Regarding betrayal, Mat is supposed to have his role set up pretty straightforward- the General of the Light forces. And to blow the Horn. Perrin is more iffy. But I also think, and hope, that there won't be a direct betrayal from Mat or Perrin.

Also, it is, indeed, a fact that so far Min is the only partner of Rand's, in practice (no pun intended). The other maidens had a go at him only for a few hours. For all Min fans out there lets hope this is not because she won't last the end of the books.
Sam Mickel
205. Samadai
Orbit(the WoT publisher for some other countries has chapter 1 of ToM available. Here is the link, only not in link form.

Edit for. I realize I am a joker, but I am not kidding about this
Chris Lough
206. TorChris
Samadai ain't kiddin'! The first chapter of Towers of Midnight is up from Orbit and Tor. We've opened a spoiler thread for the first chapter for readers who haven't bought the prologue and want to remain in the dark about it until the book release.

Spoiler thread is here: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/10/spoiler-thread-for-apples-first-the-first-chapter-of-towers-of-midnight

(Great chapter, too.)
Valentin M
207. ValMar
Bloody hell, before 2 Nov will there be anything of the book left unposted?! At least with GRRM when you read preview chapters you have 6-7 years to forget them by the time the whole book comes out.
Barry T
208. blindillusion
Well, I think they're going to keep the details of Narg's surprise b'day party a secret....

Just saying....

You know...'cause Narg's pretty important.
Marcus W
209. toryx
Man, more spoilers for me to avoid.

I still don't get the relationships. I mean, I read a lot of the earlier books when I was in my teens and twenties too and even then they didn't make any sense to me no matter how full of drama my love life was at the time.

I guess it's just that I don't/ didn't fall in love with someone just because I spent time with them. Or because they were beautiful. It's the personalities that matter and most of these women are about as appealing to me on a personal level as a box of hammers.

I also find it odd that people complain about the "I'm first!" posts but completely ignore the people grabbing for 100 or 200 or 13. To me it's all equally silly and obnoxious, particularly when there's not an actual post there. But then, I'm a curmudgeonly sort of guy. :)

(And yes, it's a slow day for me.)
Eric Hughes
210. CireNaes
Perrin lost his axe. Stop...hammer time. Ohhhowhhh.

Since Woof wouldn't do it.
211. Freelancer
Tektonica @196

Oh, absolutely. El Condor Pasa by Simon & Garfunkel (Not to be confused with Finkel, who is Einhorn).
Chin Bawambi
212. bawambi
Val can win all the marks he wants as long as the US gets the ones that count in Wales.

EDIT: Although I just did take the Celsius 100 LOL
Thomas Keith
214. insectoid
*crickets chirping* Hmm... either it's a slow day, or ToM Ch. 1 is generating more discussion than I thought it would.

Blind @208:

You know...'cause Narg's pretty important.
Too important to be captured? ::winks, nudges Sub::

Bawambi @212: LOL! I'm gonna hold out for hexadecimal 100. ;)

Alice Arneson
215. Wetlandernw
insectoid @214 - Well, it's Friday night, and everyone knew there would be no post today due to Leigh's vacation. So maybe a bunch of the regulars are out trying to distract themselves from the twitches, not knowing about Chapter 1. :)
216. Freelancer
bawambi @212

And your glory boils over.

Hey insectoid,


Have fun with that.
Thomas Keith
217. insectoid
Free @216: Umm... that kind of stuff hurts my brain at this hour... Can I take a rain check? ;)

(I'm kidding; I'm actually stumped. It's been 6 years since I attempted any sort of advanced math.)

Jonathan Levy
218. JonathanLevy
Freelancer @ 193
Oh dear, once again I realize I've been playing by different rules :(

Sonofthunder @ 192
I was pretty fond of Faile in TDR and TSR. Things went downhill in ACOS when Berelain showed up.

dmhman749 @ 194

That's an interesting idea, that Ishamael made the prophecy in the hopes that it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I like it a lot. But I think it depends on Ishamael knowing that the it exists, and it's not lost like so many other ter'angreal since the breaking. The only way I can see this happening is if the chair is in Randland, and Hawkwing's son takes it with him to Seanchan.

If it's sitting in a basement somewhere on the other continent, or if Ishamael knew it existed 1,000 or 2,000 years ago but hasn't heard anything of it since, or if it's being used by some petty kingdom in the other continent... well, it's a bit of a forlorn hope. I'm not saying it's destined to fail, but Ishamael can make any change he wants to the prophecies - wouldn't it make sense to make a change which has the highest likelihood of being considered relevant in 1,000 years, and causing damage?

Say, 'the Dragon Reborn will fly through the air, that's how you'll recognize him'. If that is strongly believed, it might cause Seanchan to not recognize Rand as the Dragon until it's too late. 'The Dragon cannot defeat the shadow unless he is brought to Tarmon Gaidon in chains' - that'll guarantee a needless war if it is believed. 'Tarmon Gaidon will not start until the Dragon Reborn is 30 years old' - that might make the forces of the Light a bit complacent. These examples I just pulled out of a hat, I'm sure much better ones can be invented.

But if the crystal throne is lost, or broken when its ruler was overthrown, and destroyed as a symbol of the old regime, or unrecognized (maybe someone painted it purple), or sitting in a holding like Tear's because people are afraid of the Power - then the fake prophecy 'the Dragon must kneel before the Crystal Throne' does no damage whatsoever. At worst people might be a bit worried, or start looking for it a bit, or even call a Great Hunt for the tHrORNe.

So yes, the crystal throne prophecy contains no risk for Ishamael, and has a chance of causing a lot of damage, but it also has a very large chance of doing absolutely nothing. And there are plenty of other prophecies which could have been made up which had a high chance of causing trouble.

toryx @ 195

As far the betrayals go, I don't believe either Mat or Perrin is going to betray Rand

I'm with you here. I think there was a motif in book 2 (foreshadowed in book 1) that Mat might accidentally reveal that Rand can channel because of his big mouth. Once Rand was proclaimed the Dragon, it became obsolete.

dmhman749 @ 198

Rand liking Aviendha makes sense...They spent a lot of time together in books four and five, and I can see what starts as an appreciation of Aviendha being the only person around who doesn't treat him like The Dragon Reborn, or He Who Comes With The Dawn growing into love.

Aviendha treats Rand like nobody special (and he remarks on it in his mind) until she goes into Rhuidean. From then on she treats him like she hates the sight of him.
219. Shadow_Jak
"Then Selucia hurries in (Mat groans), and tells him fearfully that what he is doing is “foolish beyond madness”, but can be fixed if he draws back, “whatever the omens”."

Please note her positioning when she said that...

'With a groan, she darted to half crouch between the kneeling sul'dam with one hand on the shoulder of each, as though seeking their protection"

On my first read, this is where I thought, "Oh boy! the fit is fix'in to hit the shan!"
What is the greatest threat in the room?
The damane.
What's the best way to disable a damane?
Kill, or even just injure her sul'dam.
Selucia was only a vulcan pinch away from clearing the field of channelers.
I was a bit dissappointed. Oh well...
220. Shadow_Jak
@ 219
Always wondered if I was the only one one of the few to notice that Selucia was prmed to take out the damane...
or if this was one of those things that others found so obvious that it did not bear a comment.
Alice Arneson
221. Wetlandernw
Shadow_Jak - I suspect most of us were so busy trying to figure out what was going on in other regards, or just being swept along in the narrative, that it didn't really occur to us. Me, anyway. I'd never really considered that she might be preparing to take out the sul'dam, mostly because it wouldn't occur to me that she might view them as a threat. ::shrug:: You may be right. Or you may be crazy. Lots of that going around, you know. ;)
Valentin M
222. ValMar
Shadow_Jack @ 219
In posts like this I find much of the pleasure in these threads. That Selucia had placed herself to be able to kill the damane/suldam never occured to me; for the reasons stated by Wetlander. Even if you are wrong.
But I guess that the buxom assassin was reading herself to take out the channelers. The only other reason for her to stand behind them is for protection. But Selucia knows that if the suldam would protect her, they would've dealt already with the threat against Tuon.

PS toryx @ 209
Re grabbing 00's. The answer is very simple. Double standards. Posters here know that I am rather awesome and terrific member of this community and don't dare to complain, lest I go and leave the place impoverished.
This may also apply for other, more prolific, grabbers of 100's (cough, Sub, cough).
223. Shadow_Jak
Wetlandernw @221

You may be right. Or you may be crazy.

Thanks! or maybe not? Anyway, the two are not really mutually exclusive ;-)

ValMar @ 222
I agree, no reason for Selucia to think the Sul'dam were going to help her. And she certainly doesn't need protection from the others, or at least she doesn't think she does.
She likely doesn't have a clue just how tough Thom and Noal are. And, unlike Mat, neither has shown much compunction about fighting women. They are old enough to know better!
Alice Arneson
224. Wetlandernw
Shadow_Jak - How true. It's just that I'm constitutionally incapable of saying "you may be right" without adding some permutation of "I may be crazy." Traces of a misspent youth or something. :) Perhaps I should have added that "it just may be a lunatic we're looking for."

ValMar - Indeed!! :)
Valentin M
225. ValMar
Also to add, the "discovery" of Selucia's sneaky homicide plan shows how rewarding it can be to keep coming back to WOT. Little bits and pieces like this keep coming out of the woodwork and one person alone cannot find them all. Except RJ himself.
226. Shadow_Jak
Wetlandernw - If I'm crazy then it's true, that it's all because of you (and you, and you, and oh yeah, you too). But you wouldn't want me any other way ay ay.
"misspent youth". Yeah, youth is just so darn wasted on the young. I sure I could do youth ever so much better now.

ValMar - Lost count of how many rereads I've done, But I always find new nuances. And this re-read, with everyone views makes it so much more fun.
227. Ouroboros
Okay, so I go away for a month, come back and find that someones called the decorators in. That new edit box is a lot of fun, although I'm not sure that my screen-reading-thingy is convinced. (I'm hoping that this will show up in the clear and not turn into some kind of cyberspacial garbage on route.)

It looks like I haven't missed that much. Apart from Perrin sulking, Berelain Berelaining, and Elayne slowly, oh so very slowly, staking her claim as the Lion Queen.

Still, at least I'm back in time for the good stuff.

Now to read the comments. Which thread to start with, though? They seem to be multiplying exponentially!
228. Wortmauer
Alisonwonderland@183: But how can it? One prophecy says he will bind the nine moons to serve him. The other says he will kneel to the Crystal Throne (in case that is unclear, it means he will serve whoever is occupying the CT). How can both come true? So many posters have invented some ridiculous scenarios to make such mutually exclusive events occur.

Wouldn't be the first time for a "logically implausible" prophecy. Remember everyone's puzzlement (in-story) about how the Stone wouldn't fall until the Dragon held Callandor? A chicken and egg problem. Nobody could reach Callandor, in the Heart of the Stone, without going through a lot of stiff Defenders.

I don't really hold to the Crystal Throne bit being genuine, but I'm also not ready to dismiss it just on the face of it being hard to reconcile with other "knowns." I also don't accept that it necessarily "means he will serve whoever is occupying the CT." For an object lesson on the predilection for pedantry in Pattern prediction, we need look no farther than Sheriam's halo.
229. Ouroboros
I hereby nominate this for Most Random Chapter Title in WOT. “Cold, Fat Raindrops”? Really?

Ah, the first draft included a scene with Mat doing a silly little dance routine with the ashanderei and his hat around a lamppost in the pouring rain.

As for Mat's thoughts on his dying and living again; he married Tuon. He's definitley out of second chances now!

Bye-bye Ebu Dar. See you again in TGS. This city needs to cell postcards for WoT fans that read "The weather is fine. The company is bloody awful. Wish I was back in Cairhien.

I must say, Seanchan weddings sound very cheap. I'll have to remember that if I ever get lucky!
Alice Arneson
230. Wetlandernw
Shadow_Jak @226 - Oh, too sadly true. I, too, could do youth much better now. :)

Ouroboros @227 - There you are! Just in time for all the good new bits! And as funny as ever. Good to see you again.
Julian Augustus
231. Alisonwonderland
What's with all the fixation about Ishy tampering with the Esianic Cycle? I believe the prophecies were tampered with, but why does it have to be by Ishamael and no other? Whether the Esianic Cycle was put together from scratch in Seanchan, or was a revision of the Karaethon Cycle which was carried to Seanchan by Luthair, the only people who had the incentive to tamper with it and make the DR subordinate to the Crystal Throne are, ta-da, the occupants of the Crystal Throne! They had the motive, the means, and the opportunity to corrupt the prophecies. And they most likely did. Why invent all kinds of convoluted theories to make Ishy the culprit?
232. Ouroboros
2 Be'Lal + 11 jamesedjones

I always took it that Selucia is talking to Tuon.

“Whatever the omens, this can still be rectified if you will only consent to draw back.”

This only really makes sense in relation to Tuon. I.E. Tuon is doing this because she has seen three to'raken laying addled eggs in the middle of a perfect circle of poo that was deposited by thirteen s'redit after a lightening storm that lasted three days.
Thomas Keith
233. insectoid
Well, I'm totally bushed. Did the Miramar Air Show today—brain's fried. That rain check on the math puzzle valid through tomorrow Free? ;)

Ouroboros: Welcome back! We all missed your good humor.

234. Ouroboros
22 freelancer

There are quite a lot of examples of people doing things because of a prophecy. I'm not saying that the events wouldn't have taken place without the prophecy, but it always seemed to me that the wheel was taking a shortcut.

Also, while many of the individual prophecies may not be self fulfilling, the foretellings and viewings when viewed as a whole could be viewed that way. Both Mat and Tuon have received prescient knowledge of there wedding and it would have been pretty difficult to persuade them if it had not been for those two foretellings; Mat avoids nobles like the plague and Tuon will only marry for the good of the empire.

The simplicity and immediacy in which things occurred leaves no doubt in my mind that the Wheel was going for the quickest route. That's the problem with massive ontological concepts - they never stop for pedestrians.

To put it simply, most of the prescience we see is really just the Wheel's way of making sure that things fall out in the right way. It doesn't just throw individual prophecies out for the enjoyment of a handful of lucky souls. Each foretelling and viewing is intended to nudge people into place so that an event can happen, or so that the next prophecy in the chain can play its role. The prophecies are fully intigrated with each other and very much players in the piece.

Having said all that, we also have the free will prophecies, in which the choice is actually part of the foretelling. The prophecy about Rand and his hareem in a boat states that the future teeters on a blade, and Min has a viewing of Gawyn which flickers back and forth between two possibilities. Also, Egwene's dreams often have a sense of warning to them. This implies that there are a few points in the pattern when things can be changed on a large scale. And finally, there is the caveat that the foretellings will only hold true if the pattern itself survives each event,

Personally, I think this is where things are heading. In spite of all the foretellings, viewings, and dreams, there will come a time when Rand will have to choose which way to throw the big switch, and that is what being the Dragon is really all about. Everything he has been through will have been to prepare him for this choice. It may be that the scene on Dragon Mount was that choice, but there could be another. Rand visited Gethsemane and kept the cup, but what happens next?

One last thought. Did the Creator make the wheel so that it would always oppose the Dark One? Are some of the things which are happening to Rand happening to ensure that he will make the right choice? Or is there really no choice at all?

Wow! That post went sideways.

Here endeth the rambling.
235. Ouroboros
26 Isilel. RE: seeing the SF escape.

You mean you really want another diversion at this point in the story?

31 Randalator. RE: all "normal" relationships are arranged by the universe (or alcohol, fairies, unicorns, naked boys with bows and arrows...

You forgot bunnies. Oh, and money.

32 aspeo

Noal is Demandred. He also killed Asmodean.
Tricia Irish
236. Tektonica
Wet & Shadowjak: You two managed to use about 95% of those lyrics and even make some sense. Bravo.

Welcome back Ouroboros....well said @234. Keep 'em coming. Did you have a nice vacation?
237. Ouroboros

Sheriam admits to steeling the dream ter'angreal - which will hopefully make things interesting for the dream walkers - but I don't remember there being anything really earth shattering in her confessions.
238. Ouroboros
@ many on the Seanchan prophecies. Perhaps this will help.

Luthair: Well here we are in our nice new land.
Advisor: Yes, thank the Light we left those pesky Westlanders behind.
Luthair: Yes, they really didn't appreciate everything we tried to do. Or Dad.
All: May he live forever.
Advisor: No, those Aes Sedai were really ungrateful. I hate Aes Sedai. Don't you?
Luthair: Yes, my trusty Advisor, I hate Aes Sedai. So, we need a really good palace to rule from.
Advisor: Oh that's easy. Just use that castle over there.
Luthair: What, the one with all the moons on it.
Advisor: Yeh, that one.
Luthair: What do we call it.
Advisor: Well, there are nine moons on the wall, so how about the Court of the Nine Moons.
Luthair: Done. Now, we need a throne.
Advisor: Oh, that's easy. Just use that old crystal chair we nicked from Tear.
Luthair: Isn't that a tirangrewhat'sit.
Advisor: Maybe. Why don't you sit in it and see.
All: Wow! You're magnificent.
Scribe: Erm, their may be a problem.
Luthair: Oh?
Scribe: There's a thing in the prophecies about the Dragon Reborn binding the nine moons to serve him.
Advisor: Well, you could rewrite the prophecies.
Luthair: What! You can't do that!
Scribe: No! We can't do that!
Advisor: Do it!
Luthair: Uhr, I don't feel very well.
Advisor: DO IT!
Luthair: Change the prophecies.
Scribe: But-
Luthair: The chair says change the prophecies.
Scribe: Yes your magnificence. And why do you look like some one just hit you on the head?
Luthair: I don't know. Advisor, why do I look like someone hit me on the head?
Advisor: I couldn't say, worm.
Luthair: What did you call me? And what's your name anyway.
Advisor: Nothing your magnificence. And you may call me Alys.
Luthair: Alys? What kind of a name is that?
Alys: Oh, it's old tongue for bullshit. Shut up.
Ludhair: Yes, but isn't it a girls name?
Alys: No, anyone who doesn't want to give their real name can use it.
Ludhair: Yes, but isn't that a little obvious?
Alys: No, because the pattern wills it not to be. Now shut up you bug under a rock.
Luthair: You can't talk to me like that. I'm the emperor.
Alys: I can channel, you can't, and I can compel you into a retirement home.
Luthair: Yes Master.
Alys: Now stay here and grind the peasants into the dirt while I pop back over to Tar Valon and screw around with the Red Ajah some more.
Luthair: Yes Master.
Thomas Keith
239. insectoid
Ouro @238: ROFL!! It all makes sense, now... xD

Valentin M
240. ValMar
Ouroboros @ 238
It does help :) I noticed "you may call me Alys" line. Wasn't this what Moiraine said in book 3? It has stuck in my mind as a very good example of Aes Sedai speak.
241. Ouroboros
187 Wetlandernw RE: Perin

I really wasn't surprised when he got axe-happy in COT. In fact, I seam to remember thinking "finally, can we get some closure now" when I read it. Time for a brief summary.

Book 1: He gets introduced to the wolves. He goes crazy when Hopper is killed and cuts down two White Clokes.
Book 2: he has to voluntarily communicate with them in order to follow Fain.
Book 3: He almost becomes a wolf when he enters T'A'R to free Faiel. It's clear when reading that chapter that he's losing control.
Book 4: He does a pretty good job of holding onto his human side here. And there aren't really any insane rages.
Book 5: He gets a lot of quality time in the dream.
Book 6: Dumai's Wells. Say no more. Okay, that's not fair. He goes nuts with the axe and enjoys it. It isn't really until book 7 that he starts to reflect on just how much he enjoyed it, but he did.
Book 7: Perrin makes it perfectly clear that he values Faiel more than the rest of the world "let it burn". This shocks Loyal and Gaul.
Book 8: Perrin's reaction to the guy with the ears on a string proves that he's really not that good at containing his anger.
Book 9: He proves that he can't hold it together when she's taken. He comes very close to killing Hopper in the dream. He then begins abandoning the responsibilities to the men with him.
Book 10: Chop-chop! He also admits that he'd do a deal with the Dark One if it would get Faiel back.
Book 11: He loses his head when the attack on Malden begins and turns into a raging animal again. When he sees Faiel being lead by two Shaido, he goes mad and tries to hack them into sausage meet. He is incapable of assessing the situation rationally at this point, he is 75% animal. Again, he reflects later that he enjoyed the killing.

The point is that Perrin's "descent" into animal rages began far earlier than COT and I don't think that what he does in COT is out of character at all. It's there for all to see in the third book at the latest. The peace-loving blacksmith is what he wants to be, not what he is. This is why he has such a problem being around the tinkers, because they represent what he can never be, at least not until after the last battle is done.
Ron Garrison
242. Man-0-Manetheran
Ouroboros - Welcome back! Thanks for that historical recap of Perrin. "This is why he has such a problem being around the tinkers, because they represent what he can never be..."

This made me reflect on Aram who shadows him adoringly and then turns on him in the end.
243. Ouroboros
Tektonica, + Freelancer
Please be aware that under the bylaws you may not hammer in the evening, at least not in this part of the land. Also, if you're planning on ringing any bells, could you please do it over there; silence is, well, you know.

207 ValMar. RE: Bloody hell, before 2 Nov will there be anything of the book left unposted?! At least with GRRM when you read preview chapters you have 6-7 years to forget them by the time the whole book comes out.

*shnarf shnarf shnarf*

211 Freelancer. RE: (Not to be confused with Finkel, who is Einhorn).

Yes. Gender is no bar to his call.

And we're now both going to the special hell for bad comedy!

216 Freelancer

I can't believe you just did that. You're such a cube! A hex on all your bases! :))

We're now also going to the special hell for geeks.
244. Ouroboros
218 Jonathan Levy. RE: Crystal throne.
One point to consider is that we have never seen a Seanchan thinking about the prophecy that the Dragon will bind the Nine Moons to serve him.
It's possible that the Seanchan set up the Court of the Nine Moons and only later realised that there was a passage in the prophecies that told of it being subject to the Dragon. They then not only expunged the passage, but added a new one in which the Dragon kneels to the Crystal Throne.
To put this another way, there was no reason for the Westlanders to remove the nine moons prophecy but plenty of reasons for the Seanchan to do so.

The prophecy about the Dragon kneeling could have been made by a Seanchan channeler but I have reservations. I think it's possible that this little contrivance will be one of the things that forces Fortuona to re-examine some of her convictions.

219 Shadow_Jak

This is certainly possible.
245. Michelej898
Just curious before I read the comments...I'm one of the ones who will get the book when it comes out and don't want to read any chapters/spoilers...are there any on this thread? The books are my birthday present to myself (10/28 and last year I got the book ON my birthday. Now have to wait a few more days this year.
246. Ouroboros
@ many

Thanks for the re-welcomes. I was on a kind of working vacation which was a lot of fun but ridiculously hectic.

230 Wetlandernw. RE: Oh, too sadly true. I, too, could do youth much better now. :)

We have enough youth. How about a fountain of manners? At least, that's what I think when I meet some of the current crop.

231 Alisonwonderland

Because it's always Ishy. Ishy did it. Ishy killed Asmodean. Ishy is Demandred. Ishy will be the next Amerlyn Seat. Ishy is Einhorn!

233 insectoid

Well, I'll try and keep my "good humor" going through COT.

240 ValMar

I think the White Tower has little "you may call me Alys" cards printed for all the Sisters. Even Galina used it. I just love the idea of Ishy using it too. Maybe he gave them the idea as a twisted joke.

242 Man-0-Manetheran

Let's leave discussions of Aram until the relevant chapters, otherwise there will be almost nothing to talk about! Except for how much everyone hates Berelain, Faile, Perrin, Elayne, the plot, the weather...
247. Ouroboros
245 Michelej898

This thread *should* be spoiler free. There are dedicated threads for those who enjoy rolling around in spoilage.

Speaking of which...
248. Shadow_Jak
Ouroboros @141
RE Perin
Good points and good timeline on Perin
Speaking of Perin...

I always thought of him as the Red-headed stepchild among the Big 3.

Rand is, of course the DR. Reborn Hero of the Ages.
But also, consider, Rand was groomed for Leadership from the beginning.
First by Moiraine, Aes Sedai, High Lady, master of the Great Game and by LAN, Warder, Blademaster, uncrowned King, the ultimate Warrior. What better role-model?
In Tear, he had Thom, a true master of the Game, if ever there was one, and Rhuarc, another impeccable role-model. Not to mention Elayne, heir to the Queen of Andor, and well trained in ruling (and with a natural talent for canoodling!).
Later he had the guidance and advice other Clan Chiefs and Bashere, one of The Great Captains.
Plus, of course lots of kindness and love from Wise Ones, oh and did I mention Cad, er... SWMNBN?
And of course, the Madman in his head.
So he's had lots and lots of proding, I mean training as a Ruler.

Mat, on the other hand has had to get by without all that help... well except for all the memories and talents of hundreds if not thousands of Warriors and leaders stuffed in his head. Not to mention, he's the only one we know (who isn't a gholem) who can sass just about every Aes Sedai in the Tower and get away with it... via the handly dandy Fox Head medalion.

Perin.... Well, he met some nice Tinkers (and Lon Chaney Jr). His best bud and role model is a dead wolf. All the real guidance he has had in how to be a Ruler comes from an insane, Saldean girl and a Hussy from Mayene. (There once was a hussy from Mayene... Gotta be a good limerick in there somewhere). Both of whom mostly just want to get him in the sack.

So anyway, that's my take on Perin and his crisis of leadership. I think he has done very well considering.

Wow. what a wall of text...
Sorry about that Chief.
Ron Garrison
249. Man-0-Manetheran
OK Shadow_Jak, I accept your challenge:

There once was a hussy from Mayene
Whose tactics some readers thought obscene.
Some think her jaded,
But Mayene's n'er been invaded.
So perhaps she's not as loose as she seems.
Thomas Keith
250. insectoid
Ouro @246:

Because it's always Ishy. Ishy did it. Ishy killed Asmodean. Ishy is Demandred. Ishy will be the next Amerlyn Seat. Ishy is Einhorn!

LOL!! A card printed with "You may call me (insert random BS name)" would be more flexible. But I love the idea!

Let's leave discussions of Aram until the relevant chapters, otherwise there will be almost nothing to talk about! Except for how much everyone hates Berelain, Faile, Perrin, Elayne, the plot, the weather...

Don't forget Sevanna, Therava, Galina, the Sea Folk, Cadsuane, random political hot-topics...

Shadow_Jak @248:

Sorry about that Chief.

Don't worry about it Max... walls o' text are a admirable thing around here.

Man-0 @249: ::snortchucklegasp::

Wayne Wilson
251. stylusmobilus

There once was a hussy from Mayene
That invaded a really wet wolf dream
Because she's a player
She got down with Slayer
And now she's all nasty and mean.
Janet Hopkins
252. JanDSedai
I would like to join the throng in welcoming Ouroboros back! I was wondering just a few days ago where you had gotten to. So, join us for some cookies (and apples!); join the twitching!

Of course, in my mind, my posts could be just as erudite, comical, and relevant as Ouroboros', (or Sub's, or Sam's, or any number of people), but alas, when I sit at a keyboard, my brain freezes. Couple that with my dismal typing skills and OCD tendencies, the wit fails to flow.

Oh well, I tell myself I have other talents. Unfortunately, anything involving communication is not one of them!
Julian Augustus
253. Alisonwonderland
Insectoid @250:

A card printed with "You may call me (insert random BS name)" would be more flexible
Didn't Verin pull out that same stunt a couple of chapters ago? When asked her name in Far Madden she answered: All of you may call me Eadwina
Janet Hopkins
254. JanDSedai
Style @251

You just had to do it, huh?!
Jonathan Levy
255. JonathanLevy
Yay, Limericks! No better way to discover that I've been pronouncing the names in my head unlike every other person in the world.

Here goes:

There once was this First of Mayene,
Who chose Perrin above other men,
She said "What is the deal
with that nutcase Faile??
He rejects me again and again!"

There once was this First of Mayene,
Who tried Perrin again and again,
To explain it she quoth:
"It's an Ogier's Oath,
Now it's time for Take 410!"
256. Wortmauer
Levy@255: Nice. My humble contribution:

So this Berelain, First of Mayene,
Was a lady who dressed for the men.
She once tried for Rand,
But as I understand,
Was just into the sons of Tigraine.
Wayne Wilson
257. stylusmobilus

Nice and nicer. This is funny.

We know Berelain thinks shes grander
Than Faile and Queen Alliandre
So she dumps ol' Lord Perrin
No shift she is wearin'
As she macks the Lord Captain Commander
258. Freelancer

Since you missed Ouroboresus' comment @ 243, it works like this:


If you noticed my notation carefully, the "h" is lowercase, this means base 6 (hex) rather than base 16 (Hexidecimal). However, you could have, as he likely did, reverse-engineered the answer given that the fourth position of significance in any base is b^3, and since 216 is indeed 6^3...

Make like a squashed tomato...
259. Ouroboros
When the hussy who came from Mayene–
Who was wanted by most of the men–
Tried to snuggle Aybara,
His wife from Saldaea
Fed both the sluts eyes to a hen!
Thomas Keith
260. insectoid
Loving the Berelain-themed limericks! You guys are silly. ;)

Free @258: Oh okay... I did see Ouroboros's comment, but I guess I was a little slow this morning. I wonder why... And besides, I wasn't sure which comment # you were referring to, mine or yours.

...And run! ;)

261. Ouroboros
Hehehe! Sooner or later it always goes this way doesn't it? Fun though.

255 Jonathan Levy

Pronounceation - sorry - Pronunciation FTW. That's what Authors get for being all clever and linguistic like.

257 stylusmobilus

*snicker* Nice rhyming.

I know we've come up with some strange ways to pass the time but this really takes the biscuit. Oh well, Here's another.

When Berelaine gets off her throne,
The Westlanders let out a groan.
When she last left Mayene,
She was found by Gallenne
In Tear, bestridin' the Stone!
262. Freelancer
insectoid @260

Not run, catch up.

Jonathan Levy
263. JonathanLevy
Ouroboros @ 261Lucky Stone!

Ouroboros @ 259
Well done finding a way to fit 'hen' in! :)

We thought Berelain's shameless pursuing
would bring about Perrin's undoing,
But she said "Truth to tell -
his wife's hotter than hell,
and the target of all of my wooing!"
James Hogan
264. Sonofthunder
I may like writing poetry, but limericks are well nigh impossible for me...but I'm loving all of these!! Thanks for the smiles this Monday morning, y'all!
Jonathan Levy
265. JonathanLevy
This is addictive.

When Berelain, fresh out of steam,
met Galad, she thought him a dream.
But then to her dismay -
she found out he was gay!
Now she bats for the opposite team.
Valentin M
266. ValMar
J Levy @ 263

lol! This would be one hell of a twist! Maybe you know something we don't?

Nice to see the tumbleweeds being cleared out from this thread. I just have to hope that the exodus to the spoilers is a promising sign for TOM.
Wayne Wilson
267. stylusmobilus

It is, isn't it?

The alco we call Berelain
Is guzzling cheap nasty champagne
Downing some shots
Fron a bottle of scotch
Screaming, '...who blew my cocaine...'
Jonathan Levy
268. JonathanLevy
ValMar @ 266

Fortunately, the story has a happy ending:

When our Perrin felt like a fifth wheel,
(what with Berelain smooching Faile)
Weeping on Galad's shoulder,
made the whitecloak grow bolder -
And he whipped out his power-wrought steel!
269. Ouroboros
Now the First of Mayene is a flower,
That most men want to quickly devour.
When she saw Perrin last,
She got naked so fast,
That you'd think she was using the Power.
Jonathan Levy
270. JonathanLevy
Nice one Ouro :)

Berelain tried with kisses to smother,
Bashful Rand hiding under his cover;
When her offer was spurned,
to the blacksmith she turned,
'cause one Ta'veren's as good as another!
Jonathan Levy
271. JonathanLevy
stylusmobilus @ 267
I swear I can stop whenever I want to!

The First of Mayene tried to trade,
on good looks for political aid;
But she rued her success,
and soon longed for a mess -
"It's been seven years since I got laid!"
Cameron Tucker
272. Loialson
BTW, are we 100 percent sure that the one who took the dream terangreal from Sheriam was Messana? I was reading a BS quote comparing how messana shows up in disguise (voice of chimes), and how the forsaken showed up in tGS to Sheriam(voice is raspy). He wanted to point out the difference between the two. I think the other one is Graendal(raspy voice). She's definitely in on Halimgar's stuff, so she might have the know how to get sheriam under her thumb.

Whadyall think?
Valentin M
273. ValMar
J Levy & Ouroboros
Limericks and other stuff like that is not my thing usually- good or bad- but yours have made the afternoon much less dull. Cheers!
Tess Laird
274. thewindrose
The lonely First of Mayene, Lady Berelain
Was chased away by a young swain
the gambler and her were too much the same
the blacksmith turned out to be quite lame
As foreordained, the man in white ends the campaign;)

theLIGHTONE - we are not 100% on who was bossing Sheriam around - just that it was a very stong saidar user. It could very well be Graendal, as at one of DF Socials Aran'gar is making moves on Graendal. But if you want to get deeper into this line of thought I would go to one of the spoiler threads:)

Heidi Byrd
275. sweetlilflower
@our many limerick writers:

276. MasterAlThor
Helloooooooooooooooooooo there,

WB Our. glad to see you again. keep bringing the funny.


what the????? I don't follow your crazy lingo.

New icon for Alice.....lookin good

Thomas Keith
277. insectoid
I take it back... they're very silly!! LOL! xD

I probably won't do one, though... I haven't tried to write a limerick in donkey's years.

Free @262: ::jabs with pincer:: That'll learn ya! ;)

278. Wortmauer
There once was a Mayener hussy,
Made Perrin get shouty and cussy.
She flirted and flaunted
When all that she wanted
Was Goldeneye(s) to her Octopussy.

So Berelain's out in the boonies
With four or five factions of loonies
And Perrin and Faile,
Against her to rail
(Yes, they rhyme in this tale)
But, admit it, she's got some cojoonies.
Rob Munnelly
279. RobMRobM
Had to get in on fun. Rob

There once was a First from Mayene
who used looks oft to cause a big scene
from Rhuarc to Rand
to Smith and then Whitecloak dand
Skipping only one Matrim Cauthe(e)n
280. Ouroboros
266 ValMar

On the exodus, people are bound to want to talk about anything new they have. Except for the small number - not including yours truly - who have enough will power to wait for the full release.

If you want to do some prep work, you've got four weeks to read the whole series again. :S

I'm still stuck on LoC. I may have to skip a few. :)
281. Ouroboros
270 Jonathan Levy

'cause one Ta'veren's as good as another!

Excellent! Ahem.

When the First of Mayene went to Tear,
The girls told the boys to stear clear.
But young Rand al'Thore
Did their warnings ignore.
Now he thinks that he'd rather Lanfear!
282. Wortmauer
Keep 'em up, folks, another 18 or so hours of twitching.

Lady Berelain sur Pendraeg,
On a hunt for
ta'veren to shag,
Got a look at Mat C,
But -- he's "too much like me" --
Not to mention the tongues that would wag.

So, the ruler of tiny Mayene
Did a credible job in Cairhien,
But her
Daes Dae'mar
Clearly wasn't on par
With a 16-year-old Saldae-enne.
Wayne Wilson
283. stylusmobilus

Thats it. I'm stopping, after this one. Really.

The First is a horny young lass
Completely lacking in class
She came on to Rand
Poor Perrin got banned
And also let Rhuarc spank her ass!

I'm running out of ideas too. Might have to get inspiration from the kids.
284. Ouroboros
Still going :)

There was a contemptable slattern,
Perrin's wife was determined to flatten.
But the First without fear,
Found herself a long spear,
And cut Faile out of the pattern.
Tricia Irish
285. Tektonica
All excellent you guys! Wonderful entertainment! Thanks.
Michael Catapano
286. hoping
There once was a girl from Mayene
who, with oilfish, made quite a scene
After doing High Lords
she said, 'what small gourds'
and decided to school with ta'veren

For the purposes of this limerick, I take artistic license. As I read the books, I always pronounced ta'veren as
'ta va REEN.' Now that my wife has started to read, or rather, listen, I now know that the proper way is to say 'ta VAH ren.'

A little suspension of disbelief, thank you.

I would also have you know that my wife was responsible for line four, altho I don't know why.
287. Freelancer
Of a sudden in this sorry age,
Limericks appear all the rage.
But for Mayene's bold First,
My scorn is the worst,
In this fad I will not engage.
Wayne Wilson
288. stylusmobilus

Your lack of engagement has produced a fine limerick. Keep on abstaining.

the windrose@274

It was Mesaana. She had more than a passing interest in the Rebel camp. Remember, Aran'gar told her to butt out at a meeting they had. Think it was the same one where she tried to hit on Graendal.
289. Freelancer
Having said that I would not take part,
In this silly, insidious art,
I must now desist,
Indeed I insist,
Lest the readers' brain begin to smart.
Rob Munnelly
290. RobMRobM
This ought to kill this trend off.

For her Ogier's Oath Berelain's new plan
Was to write limericks Faile could not scan
When Annoura asked her why
She replied with a sigh
"To make my poems like chalk on a blackboard to my Saldeaen reader I have decided to fit as many words on the last line as I possibly can."
291. Wortmauer
No sooner is Perrin's wife gone,
Berelain tries seducing their pawn.
If his second were she,
He'd be her number three,
The first having been Weiramon.

Hmmm, quality is slipping; I think that's pretty much all I got. Moving on ... I've recently come into a stray cat, not yet named. It occurs to me I could call her She Who Must Not Be Named. Maybe too meta? And the accepted abbreviation is unpronounceable, so I'd have to call her Catsuane for short, and that's just wrong.

Maybe "Dapple". She is kinda dappled. But only, of course, if she proves to be at least somewhat intelligent. And lupine.

Or is it? I've heard some cats, at least, make sounds not entirely unlike "swmnbn."
292. LadyCharChar
I have finally caught up with this re-read! Its been a race to try and finish re-reading the books before The Towers of Midnight comes out (I completely missed The Gathering Storm deadline by about a year!) This is my first ever post, just wanted to say how amazing this re-read has been and how helpful, I honestly must have read the book the first time with my eyes closed the amount of things I missed! So thanks alot Leigh.

There is one thing I wondered about, Mins viewing (was it Mins viewing?) about Perrin and the Falcon and the Hawk, Faile is the Falcon but who is the Hawk?

Valentin M
293. ValMar
Congratulations for the first post LadyChar.
The Hawk is Berelain.
294. Freelancer
MasterAlThor @276

Not sure if you're referring to the base 6 number notation, or the tomato line. Here goes. in Base 6, the value of 1000 would be equal to 6^3, or 216. Insectoid has the habit of catching post numbers with a significant value in Base 16 (Hexidecimal, prefixed with 0H), so I took advantage of one that had an interesting value in Base 6 (prefixed with 0h) and tossed it at him. As for the other, the classic "worst joke in the world" is:
Two tomatoes were heading down the street. One gets hit by a truck. The other turns around and says, "Hey, catch up."

I later shortened the thought into, "Make like a squashed tomato and catch up".

And, sorry about that.


Welcome to the bunker. We got fun and games. Seeing as how you went to the effort to work through the re-read (well done!), you'll want to "go grey" and register your login. It will allow you a profile, you'll be able to edit your own posts, bookmark and flag others, send shouts to other commentors, and it won't be possible for knuckleheads to spoof your name with thoughts you would never consider. Just saying, jump on in, we don't bite. Down, sub! Good boy. ::wave::
Tricia Irish
295. Tektonica

I vote for" Catsuane"...**.teehee**....very appropriate!

LadyCharChar@292: Welcome! Cookies in the Bunker while we wait impatiently for Nov. 2nd. Suffa is a good damane.
Charlotte Ringer
296. LadyCharChar
Thanks for the advice Freelancer@294 I have gone grey!

Valmar@293 I thought it was Berelain but I somehow had convinced myself that it was not because it was too obvious...

I still have to read Crossroads of Twilight and Knife of Dreams again and finally get to read The Gathering Storm all before November...doable? I think so...maybe...

I have another little annoyance why does Min get to spend an inordinate amount of time with Rand compared to Elayne and Aviendha? Seems a little unfair, not that im anti-Min

Also Tylin grrrr! Mat is far too amazing to be made a 'pet of' im so glad she midly redeemed herself but 'letting him go'

Its so nice to get these things of my chest! No one else I know is interested in the slightest and its frustrating getting 'your crazy its just a book' stares from them.
Daniel Hanley
297. dmhman749
To LadyCharChar @ 296, welcome to the forum. Thats a pretty hefty reading schedule. Doable, if you have the time to put into it, but not easy. Good luck though. Corssroads of Twilight is...ok, at best, but knife of dreams and the gathering storm are both very good.

As for Min...well, Elayne is a very busy person, what with the whole trying to rule Andor and all. Avi is...well, hanging out with her, and will eventually need to finish her wise one training. Min is the only one with a lot of free time(or other than reading philosophy books, but she can do that wherever Rand goes).

Besides, a lot of people have put forward the idea that Min isn't going to make it to the end of the series, so it could be RJ giving Min as much happiness as she can get before she dies and Elayne and Avi get to share Rand for the next several hundred years. Even if she doesn't die in the books, the fact that she isn't a channie means she has a lifespan of less than a fifth of Elayne and Avi's, so she should get to spend as much time as she can with Rand in that limited (by comparison) time frame. Very reasonable in that light, to my eyes at least.

As for Tylin, yeah, she is annoying, but thats more a product of the fact that all Ebou Dar women are annoying. She is just a product of the insane culture, so I don't really blame her personally.
Charlotte Ringer
298. LadyCharChar

I hope Min doesn't die but as I haven't read Gathering Storm yet perhaps people know more than I but since you have put it like that I can definitely see your point of view that either way Min has much less time with Rand than the others, which is sad now I think about it.

P.s Morgase certainly didnt seem to have a problem juggling men and the throne, seems to me like she has had quite a few men in her time *haha

Speaking of Min not being a 'channie' (Nice word) are there theories on why she can see things/peoples futures?

I realise im coming across as very green but my memory is awful
Tess Laird
300. thewindrose
I can't speak to the thought if there are any theories on why Min can see things/peoples futures. But in my mind, there would need to be a reason for her to hang out with Rand than just being ummm, very comforting;)
So Min gets to be the Seer.

And I too think that Min will not be around at the end of this series, but would be pleasently surpised if she were still live.


**edit** 300 hunny!!! The hunny comes back to North America!
Valentin M
301. ValMar
Darn it! Failed to clean sweep :( Had run out of beer and had to go to stockpile again.... Well, let it be a consolation for the bi-annual American spanking in the Ryder Cup.

About Min, I did state once that the reason she is with Rand so much is that she may die. But this is very tentative reasoning. After all Elayne and Avi's duties are elsewhere. Min is a "seer" and her logical place is with Rand. Also, with Rand having a whole "harem" it would be somewhat farcical if none were with him at all.
Daniel Goss
302. Beren
re: Rand's Women

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get my actual thought across here, but I'm going to try.

Something that I've always felt about Rand's Harem is that each woman represents a different phase in life, or a different 'kind' of love.

Min would be the 'young love.' The passionate, can't get you out of my head, walk around holding hands, "you hang up, no you hang up, no you" type. Fitting, as if all four of them survive she will be with Rand only when he is relatively 'young' so it would be fitting for her to receive the bulk of his time during this phase in his life.

Elayne is the 'adult' love. Responsibility, a family, probably a kingdom to run. This would be the part of his life where he will probably spend more time with Elayne. Min is gone, having lived a full life. Elayne, because she is going to be bound by the oath rod, will outlive Min by about 250 years, but probably no more than that. Rand will be in his middle years when she has reached the end of her lifespan. Also, since Andor has a queen and never a king, when she is gone he will have no place there.

Aviendha represents the old, comfortable love of two people who have spent a lifetime together and know each other inside and out. These are the two that will grow old together shepherding the remnant of a remnant of the aiel.

I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say with all of this, and I may just be stating something that everyone else sees as intuitively obvious, but it seems to me that the author had three women with such radically different expected lifespans for a reason. Of course, this is assuming that Rand even survives the Last Battle in such a way that he can spend any time at all with his wives . . . but that's another debate entirely, and even if he doesn't I don't think it invalidates this assessment.

Anyway, done rambling for now.
James Hogan
303. Sonofthunder
LadyChar, that's only 3 books...you got that easy. Only what, one a week? ;) Make it your bedtime reading. Best nighttime reading there is.

Oh, and welcome to the re-read!!!
James Hogan
305. Sonofthunder
One thing that makes me sad about moving over to Scotland from Texas is that I no longer get to read Leigh's new posts at lunchtime...now it happens after I'm already off work. Most sad.

And on the Ryder Cup note...even worse than losing it is hearing about it from all the Scots here at the office.

And on a slightly WoT note, I wondered, we are supposed to get Chapter 2 eventually, are we not? Does anyone know when that's forecast for?

And ahh, I double posted! ...I blame the ghost @304.
Tina A
306. Tinaa
SonofThunder @ 305:

Welcome to Scotland! Have you been here long? You'll get used to the late afternoon / early evening post times, although I must admit that Mr T occasionally has to get his own dinner on Tuesdays and Fridays...
Charlotte Ringer
307. LadyCharChar
Jonathan Levy @299
Thanks for the welcome!

Thewindrose@300 & ValMar@301
Yeah i guess thats true that Min is where she needs to be, being a seer and very comforting (that made me laugh!) but I just wondered why there isn't anyone else with her abilities and why Min specifically has them? Is her mother a Jackal? (Sorry for the Omen reference, just watched it last night and its in my head)

That is certainly a valid theory but it would be a bit sad if each had to wait until one dies before they get a good shot with Rand but I completely understand what you mean about each one suiting a different stage in Rands life/maturity.

I also hope Rand survives the last battle otherwise he would have done all the work without the benefits but I suppose thats sort of what 'heroes' do? I also wondered, if he survives will he still be King of Illian and Ruler of Tear etc or will he relinquish those titles?

Thanks! One book a week...easy, I just wont go to work, who needs to work anyway when theres Randland, which is much more fun! Its already my nighttime, morningtime, lunchtime reading, im slowly plodding along!
Heidi Byrd
308. sweetlilflower
So, I just had a horrible thought I am now sharing it with all of you so you can also cringe. We were all so happy for Mat to finally leave Ebou Dar, but he will have to go back! Tuon has decided to make it the center of the empire! Horror of horrors!!!!! There will probably be more scenes in that wretched city! Whyyyy...
John Massey
309. subwoofer
Not so bad a thought. At least Mat would not have to sneak around the Seanchan. As Prince of the Ravens, he can be who he is... with a shaved head of course:)

Pitty none of the limericks were of the Nantucket series. Back in the day of WoT I am sure they had buckets:P

@LadyCharChar- welcome. It is customary for new members to bring a guest-gift. We accept all credit cards.

Question- is there room in a broken world for Rand after TG?

John Massey
310. subwoofer
I am currently plowing through CoT and it is a surprisingly good read. The Perrin saga is definitely a low point for him- especially taking into context the reason for Perrin burrying his axe in a tree, but wow, there is some very powerful writing here. And much of the text that I glanced over now leaps out of the page. When I wonder how the heck somebody gets that kinda info from the books, everything seems to be explained in some of the chapters that drag along in that book. Good stuff.

And I am noting that the x-factor- Caddy is still not in communication with the Tower.

VJ Bruce
311. vjbruce
New poster here, but long time reader (since tEotW first came out,) and multiple re-reader (as so many are,) and lurker of Leigh's posts and all the comments since last year. I've learned so much from you guys -- it's like all those re-reads I did just never stuck or something.

Until recently I had no one with whom to share my WOT addiction, as hubby doesn't read WOT (and I'm kind of shy about posting to this forum of experts). But my adult daughter just finished tEofW and immediately started tGH ! Yay! I still can't really share with her too much, though, because although we read at the same time in the same room, we're volumes apart!

She asks questions I refuse to answer ("Do Rand and Elayne hook up?") and makes comments that cause me to grin ("So Rand really IS the Dragon Reborn! Cool!"). And when she saw me with tears falling down my face as I read the current spoiler chapter 1, she just wants to read faster. :) I envy her in the sense that she won't have to wait for any of the books except the last one.

But I also wouldn't trade the wild ride of the last 20 years with these books, nope, not at all! Also, as many others have said, I'm anxiously awaiting the conclusion of the series but also hating the idea of not having any books left to go. Sigh.

I make a mean apple pie and have brought a couple for the bunker, where I'll now go lurk quietly and read madly, as I've still got two books to go before Nov. 2.
Roger Powell
312. forkroot
Wow! Going grey and bringing apple pie for the bunker on your first post! That's what I call "making an entrance". Well met!

I've always sort of hoped that somehow Rand could survive the whole thing (OK, so he dies and is resurrected... whatever) and eventually retire to a quiet place minus the LTT memories. Then again, Frodo never truly found peace in his old world did he? (not counting passing into the West)

What a change - Texas to Scotland! Hmm... well at least you will get a chance to play golf as it should be played, drink scotch as it should be drunk and eat haggis as it ... wait... err... OK, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
313. Freelancer
For those doing the obligatory pre-release re-read of their own, fear not. You have plenty of time to finish before drop day. I set my own re-read start so that I'd have a liesurely time with each volume, and am on pace at the end of The Fires of Heaven. Yes, I'm sick. I'm not a terribly fast reader, but I'm not much of a sleeper, so 200+ pages a day is pretty normal. I refuse, however, to repeat last year's all-nighter with TGS.


Welcome to the insanity! It must be great fun to watch the reactions of someone else enjoying this story for the first time. But, whatever in Chapter 1 would have brought tears? ::duck:: I love a good apple pie, and we certainly have some good apples.
Birgit F
314. birgit
Something that I've always felt about Rand's Harem is that each woman represents a different phase in life, or a different 'kind' of love.

The association with life phases is the other way around. Avi is the Maiden, El the adult, Min the old wise woman (honorary Wise One as a Seer and the one who ages fastest and is oldest anyway).
315. parabola
@314 - Elayne is not just the adult, she is the Mother.
Karen Jacobs
316. KJacobs
Whew! Finally caught up with all the comments - at least on this thread. I'm finding it tough to keep up with all the active threads we've got going now - what are we up to? 5? Not complaining though - loving every minute of it!

Ouroboros @ several - Making up for lost time I see! Welcome back!

Love all the limericks!

Wortmauer @ 291: I think 'Catsuane' is a wonderful name - I'll bet even Sub would approve, now that he's softened his stance a little :) You may have to post a picture of her for us, though!

LadyCharChar - Welcome to the Bunker!
Kat Blom
317. pro_star
Guys, the limericks....just pure awesome. Thanks to all for making my cubicle dwelling life a little gigglier. Halfway through Path of Daggers, I WILL be caught up by ToM daggum! (hmm, wonder how angry the bosses would be if I start reading in my cube?)
LadyCharChar: Welcome!! Pull up a chair!

vjbruce: I hear ya. That chapter....I'm not gonna say anything...but...dang yo. Is it November 2nd yet????
Daniel Goss
318. Beren
@315 Parabola
since we have nothing better to talk about . . .

I disagree -- Avi fits the 'old wise woman' much better than Min. While Min may be an honorary wise woman, Avi is a wise woman by title (or will be soon) and will certainly live to be quite old, which will give her the benefit of many more years of experience than Elmindreda Farshaw is likely to receive. And since Elayne is by default the Mother, if we assume that Aviendha is the older one, then Min must be the maiden. If we use that archetype, anyway.

Brandon Daggerhart
319. TankSpill
Has Leigh updated yet whehther or not she will be posting this week? I didn't see anything, but my search function doesn't work on this computer and didn't look at every single post in extreme detail.
VJ Bruce
320. vjbruce
Thanks for the welcomes -- I feel like I've known all of you (and known of the bunker) for quite some time now. And I do like to putter around in the kitchen.

And yeah, not only did tears fall, but a full-body tremble happened at the same time! I was very surprised by my totally involuntary reaction. Yep, WOT addicted. Sheesh. Or, maybe as my daughter says, I'm just a sap. :)

Freelancer, I'm in awe of your re-read pace. There's no way I could do that. If I don't get some sleep at night, it comes upon me involuntarily at work the next morning. Dang work.

My daughter said last night that she doesn't like Mat very much. Which reminded me that in my first reading I didn't like him much either, until a couple of books had gone by. And of course, I heart him now!
Tess Laird
321. thewindrose
To twitch or not to twitch?
Each minute of waiting turns up the pitch.
Will there be a reread today?
To keep all of our twitching at bay?
Or will we all have reason to ***$itch

*** This is in no way a dig at Leigh - We loves you very much! Just going with the limerick thing, and going a bit insane at work - I wish I could read books here:)

Valentin M
322. ValMar
Tears and full-body tremble! Well, bugger me! Maybe I should read the 1st half of the book which is out already. But no, I will resist and will reap the rewards later.
Welcome vjbruce! Just had dinner, no need to bring anything for me.
323. Ouroboros
Okay, one last limerick. but not about Berelain. Ahem.

There was an old sniffer called Hurin,
Who was briefly besotted with Mieren.
When before her he knelt,
It was Rand that he smelt,
Who said: do not blame me! Ask Lews Therin.
Leigh Butler
324. leighdb
Hi guys,

As you've probably guessed, there will be no post today, and you can almost certainly assume there won't be one on Friday either. On the upside, I am having a very lovely vacation and will be sure to be rejuvenated when I come back next week.

So until then, have fun!
Janet Hopkins
325. JanDSedai
re: Other Threads

The Re-read
Open Thread WOT
TGS open spoilers
Open Predictions TOM (non-spoiler)
"Distictions" open thread (spoilers)
TOM non-spoiler review
Tower Guard applications
TOM tour dates
"Apples First" first chapter of TOM
326. Freelancer
Boo! Hiss! ::wave::

Have fun, Leigh. We'll be fine, we won't break a thing...
Thomas Keith
327. insectoid
A big Bunker welcome to our newest posters! Buffet is thataway. Limericks are optional.

Free @287/289: Those are pretty good for someone who didn't want to join in... :)

Wortmauer @291: Catsuane... LOL!! And I think your mention of Weiramon finally killed off the limericks. ;)

Free @294: Maybe I should start going after base 6 numbers, just to throw everyone off...

Ah yes... the Maiden, the Mother, and the Seer. It all fits.

Free @313: Pre-release re-read... I did my best last year, but wound up galloping (so to speak) through CoT and KoD, right up to the opening of the bookstore on drop day. Maybe I'll just re-read TGS a bit... that'll refresh my memory enough.

Wind @321: ::chuckle:: *twitch*

Leigh @324: Wah. Enjoy the rest of your vacay! :)

Tess Laird
328. thewindrose
Ahem, exactly what are you trying to get at JanDSedai;)

Karen Jacobs
329. KJacobs
Wind @ 328: I think JanDSedai was answering a roundabout question from me back at 316 when I referenced how hard it is to keep up with all the new threads. . . . Thanks JanD! :)

Leigh - good for you! Enjoy yourself!

vjbruce: MMMMmmmmm Apple Pie! Welcome! I know exactly what you mean about not having anyone to share the books with in real life. The husband of one of my good friends has started listening to the books, and I can't wait for him to catch up so we can talk about them! It is amazing how much this re-read and all the awesome posters here have opened my eyes to some (ok many!) of the subtleties in the story that I completely missed on my own.
Daniel Hanley
330. dmhman749
On the roles of Rand's women, keep in mind that Egwene plans for old aes sedai to remove the oaths and go into retirement, giving them just as long a total lifespan as non-aes sedai. And thats assuming the oaths don't get removed completely, which they might(I hope they are, but Egwene is pretty firm on that, so i guess we will see). But regardless, Elayne should live as long as Avi. They are both about the same strength in the one power, so their lifespans should be roughly the same.

-But Min is certainly not meant to be the 'maiden' character...She is the most deep thinking, etc of them all. And her being the 'old wise woman' makes more sense for her too...she is going to be the one who dies soonest. I agree that Avi would be closer to the 'maidin' architype. She is firey and passionate, etc. But none of them are perfect architypes. *shrug* Also, the fact that Min is infertile(drinking that tea that i cannot remember the name of) also parallels the old woman, not the maidin. Elayne is pregnant, and Avi will be in the future(which makes sense for the maiden of the group).

To LadyCharChar, Rand has already given up the throne of Tear, and the king of illian is still alive (and in the tower...they might run into eachother in the next couple chapters). I assume he will hand that throne back too. Rand never wanted to rule any nations, he just wanted them to follow him to the Last Battle. Unfortunately, it kept turning out that he needed to defeat them to get them to follow him because of all the forsaken interference. Once his role as the Dragon Reborn is done, all the nations will go back to their respective rulers. Only the Aiel will still follow him(since I assume he would still be the Car'a'carn even after his duties as the Dragon Reborn are done...they are not linked, and becoming a chief is for life).
Karen Fox
331. thepupxpert
Free & various - I actually finished my series re-read a bit early and finished TGS just in time to start BWS' WOK. About half way through that right now so I'll probably be done with ahead of TOM. Any other "light" reading you can recommend before November?
Daniel Goss
332. Beren
To play devil's advocate:

By your own argument, Avi fits the 'old woman' archetype much better. The older woman may have been a mother at one point, but certainly the maiden never was or will. This applies especially if Min dies young, as some are suggesting that she will. And as for Min not being passionate . . . I don't think that argument can be made. She's certainly been passionate with Rand. Many times.

Basically, Min feels like the "Now," Elayne feels like "Soon," and Aviendha feels like "Later." If that makes more sense.

Daniel Hanley
333. dmhman749
...what??? "The older woman may have been a mother at one point, but certainly the maiden never was or will. "

Umm...ok...neither of them has been a mother yet, so they both qualify equally for the old woman if that is the criteria. And certainly the maiden never was or will??? Of course a maiden will. almost by definition, the maiden architype is someone who hasn't experienced womanhood yet, but will soon. ...exactly the situation avi is in, if 'womanhood' is defined as motherhood here.

In min's own words, she has comforted Rand, which seems more the old woman way to phrase that than the maiden way. Oh, im sure there has been passion, but the sort of passion that you race after someone across the world and through a blizzard to tear eachother's clothes off after you have both been fighting it for so long? *grin*

Anyway, Min has always felt more like the friend/eventually lover who you are just comfortable to be around, while Avi is the person that Rand doesn't want to love, but can't keep himself from doing so. Also, there are the internal questionings he has about if he really is in love with her in books five and six, which sounds more like what goes on in the teenage type relationships(He asks at least once "how do you know if you are in love" or something like that thinking of Avi). But as relatively little of this is based on actual fact, and mostly based on how we feel about the relationships, and obviously we completely disagree on that, I don't see how this is going to go anywhere.
Daniel Goss
334. Beren
Oh it's not going anywhere. Both of us have valid arguments. As none of the three exactly fit any of the classic archetypes, we could talk all day about which fits each of them most closely, but the truth is there is no perfect answer. That is to say, I don't think that the author specifically meant for the three of them to parallel that model exactly. I merely like speculating on them

Rob Munnelly
335. RobMRobM
For Woof @309

A lass far way from Nantucket
Sought Perrin love so bad he couldn't duck it
Dragged him into her tent
Spread a story so bent
That all thought that she really did ___
Karen Jacobs
336. KJacobs
RMRM @ 335: I think you're getting punchy! :)
Thomas Keith
337. insectoid
Beren: re: the Maiden... Keep in mind Min's viewing that Avi would also have Rand's babies. Perhaps this line of thinking has something to do with the 'odd' part...?

RobM² @335: ROFL!! xD

Tricia Irish
338. Tektonica
vjbruce & Ladycharchar:

Welcome! There's no one here in Florida to share WoT with either. :-( This reread has opened my eyes to many missed things, and introduced me to so many great new people! Glad you're both finally posting! And gone Gray and in the Bunker with goodies too! Yippee!!

My theory on Rand post TG: Should he still be in a corporeal state, I don't see him ruling anything, except perhaps the Aiel remnant, as Car'a'Carn, or the joint "Towers."

When he was leaving Rhuidean, he said he would like to return and see it flower. Perhaps that will be the new Aes Sedai headquarters, for both the male and female Aes Sedai, as in the Age of Legends?

I so don't want Min to die. She's been the rock that has held Rand together. (As much as he was still together in tGS.) She's fated to die long before the others anyway, but, I have a really bad feeling about this.......
Daniel Hanley
339. dmhman749
To Tektonica @ 338, yeah, I hope Min doesn't die either, but I am having a sinking feeling that she will more and more as I think about it. It would do a lot of things. It would show that Rand doesn't need to be held together by her anymore. He proves that he can continue on without going Dark Rand while facing the same sort of true heartbreak confronting so many of his people in the Last Battle. If he is one with the land, and the land is to be broken again according to prophesy, it follows that he should suffer heartbreak too, and I can't think of any better way to further demonstrate this mirror between the DO and his people than this.

It could be used as part of a the choice Rand needs to make--ex-maybe Rand can use the TP again to save her, but must decide not to in order to keep the DO from getting a hold on him. Or something. Plus there is the fact that Avi and Elayne are both channies with similar life-spans to Rand, and they are both already first sisters, so it would be a lot easier to get rid of Min and just have them both marry him than to have Min get to know Avi well enough to become first sisters with her in the short period we have left. Also, there is that thing from the prologue of ToM which we are unfortunately not supposted to discuss here which indicates it might go that way.
Wayne Wilson
340. stylusmobilus

Hello, and welcome. We're really nice, aren't we? Isn't it a relief to come to a posting forum and not be continually insulted?

I think Rand will give up his throne pretty much straight away. That will happen, I think, in the next Rand POV, as he meets Mattin Stepaneos in the WT. In his true form, I feel thrones and titles are irrelevant, and possibly restrictive. In other words, he is beyond the titles.

Subwoofer wants you to buy him something. I'll settle for a dark fruit cake.
M Anderson
341. DevilsAdvocate
Beren @ 332

No fair!! That's my role!! :P

Umm... So if Warders go bats**t crazy when their Aes Sedai dies and Rand was bonded by his three ladies, what happens when one of them dies (even if Min dies at a nice old age)?

Will the bond with the other two offset the vengeful craziness? Or will he go nuts? I kind of suspect the former, but it feels like a bit of a cop out. I guess there is a precedent for "saving" Warders by passing the bond or rebonding them (cf. Lan), but it seems too convenient if that's the case with Rand.

This is probably answered elsewhere in the reread or in some FAQ somewhere, but am kind of feeling lazy right now and can't be asked to look.

(Sorry if that is a bit rambling, but it's been a long day at work and now I have 3 hours of Financial Management lecture to listen to... sigh...)
Thomas Keith
342. insectoid
*crickets chirping* Something funny's going on here (and not ha-ha funny)... I'd swear there was a comment by Jonathan Levy @342, and by myself right after that. Did I imagine them, or did they get swallowed up??

Karen Jacobs
343. KJacobs
Insectoid@342: I was thinking the same thing! Everything from this morning has vanished. Just sent Torie an email to let her know.
Tess Laird
344. thewindrose
Oh dear, I believe insectoid is caught in Hinderstap with Jonathan Levy now!

Actually, you are correct, there is something going on. I couldn't log in for a while, and then when I was able to, comments were like 12 hours old. Oh dear, I may be in Hinderstap too!

Tricia Irish
345. Tektonica
I kept refreshing and getting a list with comments 17-18 hours old.
Hinderstap indeed! Or groundhog day.
Torie Atkinson
346. Torie
Hey all-- @KJacobs just gave me the heads-up on the weirdness going down here. I've passed it on to the code monkeys and hopefully we can get this fixed ASAP. So sorry!
Chris Lough
347. TorChris
Hi everyone,

The site had a hiccup this afternoon and we seem to have lost all updates made here since midnight. We've restored all posts but any comments made are gone for good. We apologize for the inconvenience (and sympathize, boo to this!).

- Chris
Thomas Keith
348. insectoid
Glad to know I'm not going nuts... Thanks Torie and Chris! Hiccup, huh? Maybe the server needs a drink of water. ;)

Is the new book out yet?
Quiet, you! 26 days to go.
Too long... too long!

349. Freelancer
Ok, everyone line up. Recall your posts from last night, and resubmit them all. In order, please.

::not holding breath::

The "Code Monkeys" love it when you call them that. For reals.
Sam Mickel
350. Samadai
"Suffa, Bad damane. Quit messing around with the bunker and losing things. Go clean the Sred'it cages."
Chris Lough
351. TorChris
@348. I think the server had a drink of water. :)
Thomas Keith
352. insectoid
TorChris @351: Oh... my mistake. Had to have been time travelers, then. Or balefire. ;)

Megan Messinger
353. thumbelinablues
TorChris @351, I think the server had a drink of something stronger!
Rob Munnelly
354. RobMRobM
Thank goodness my Nantucket limerick survived....
Bonnie Andrews
355. misfortuona
Sigh, balefired!!
Sorry folks I think that was my fault. (Note to self no comments on Sufa's weight in the future)
Anyway I will iterate my welcome to the newcomers.
Hello Lady Char Char ( I really want to know the origin of your name)

vjbruce hmmm, well you aren't here yet now are you. How strange. Well at anyrate we're glad to have you and your additions to the bunker. I also had no one to share my WoT obbsession with until I met my new family here, and though many rue the day I showed up, I sorely Mis it on those days that I do not find my way here.
Anyway be patient, the days of tongue biting and looking over your daughter's shoulder will come to an end.

Smityphi - So sorry we didn't role out the welcome to you earlier. Come on in, have some apple treats, enjoy the bar, and don't comment on Sufa's weight and all will be well.

Mis-is sad apparently balefire, or other greedy posters, wiped out the fruitcake before I could get to it
Sam Mickel
356. Samadai
Who was in my stash of the Oosquai? Bad server monkey.
Torie Atkinson
357. Torie
Sorry about the BF you guys. Someone has been lax in their ritual sacrifices. I won't name names, but you know who you are...

@ 349 Freelancer

It's a term of endearment! Code monkeys are some of the best people in the world, with big warm fuzzy secret hearts.
Daniel Smith
358. Smittyphi
@Tektonica 345 Yikes. Bad day for Groundhogs day. Of course, that's the whole point isn't it?

@Misfortuona 355 Thanks for the carpet and bunker. I'll take a virgin drink of any variety. No alcohol for me.
VJ Bruce
359. vjbruce
Mis @ 355
Thanks for the repeat welcome. And yes, I'm still here! Original posts @ 311 and 320, but this morning's post is toast. In it, I made a shout out to fellow newbie LadyCharChar and commented on a post by Freelancer that isn't there anymore. :) Oh, well, these things happen.

And yeah, eventually I won't have to bite my tongue in response to my daughter's WOT questions, but in the meantime I'm actually having quite a good time telling her to RAFO! (insert incredibly evil mom-laugh here)
360. branwhin
Bad Suffa! Very bad damane.

I'm giggling at all the limericks ... Ouroboros, I think you just about killed me with your Hurin one.

Welcome to all the new posters! Great to see new people. I'm contributing a turnip-and-apple bake to the buffet, as well as a basket of crisp fresh apples. Oh, and plain mashed turnips also. Hmm, I also seem to have a pumpkin pie in here. Enjoy!

On the actual chapter discussion (?) Mat's comment about having a 'small errand' in the damane kennels is amusing. Nothing for Egeanin to worry about indeed. She'd have had a litter of kittens, I'm sure, whatever her feelings about Elayne and Nynaeve.
Bonnie Andrews
361. misfortuona
Bran, Sister I love you - you know I do, but Please, I beg you, do not bring turnips into the bunker or we may have to dance the spears.

Mis-stepping out for some fresh air
Chin Bawambi
362. bawambi
Thats all right mis ill turn any leftover turnips into irish lamb stew and ill bring some dark chocolate gingers while im at it

Ron Garrison
363. Man-0-Manetheran
I'm pretty sure I was at post #365, anyway it was just a welcome to all the new posters. Some of the gang is away on the spoiler threads, but the rest of us are here ready to party! The Berelain Limerick Collection is among our finest hours...
364. Freelancer
Clearly, somebody didn't like my post telling the truth about Mat. Here I was, minding my own business, telling vjbruce that if her daughter doesn't like Mat during her initial read of the story, it's a very good sign for her.

Until the story gets beyond the Jangai Pass, there isn't much to recommend about Mat.
Daniel Goss
365. Beren
Someday, someone is going to go through all of the posts' comments and make a collection of the funniest bits. I shudder to think of the sheer scope of that task, but I'm sure there's somebody out there crazy enough to do it.

And yes, the Limerick Collection had me ROFLing (RingOFL?)
John Massey
366. subwoofer

And so my post goes up in smoke again... hang on...


@RobM- I am thinking that the blank is for the word bucket. What? It rhymes;)

@LadyCC- money is for the gift shop items... slinkies, T-shirts, decoder rings- unless you wanna buy me a dingle ball:)
Nope the Brandy fruit cake is perfect. I call 'dibs'.

I believe I had other stuff to say about Perrin, but I am struggling to remember. Something like Perrin does have some problems with his humanity, but he did throw the axe away. That has to count for something. Mat is having problems 'settling down' , not being a gambler. Perrin is having problems being more than just a blacksmith. Rand, at the end of tGS has finally come into his own. Let the other two boys catch up. I think given what has happened to the boys, they will all step up and be the heroes we want them to be.

John Massey
367. subwoofer
I think theWindRose has it nailed. We are stuck in Hinderstap.

Do not try the meat pies.

And mind the crazies. No, no really. Mind them. They bite.

Daniel Goss
368. Beren
Hinderstap: Come for the wool, stay for the night life.
369. Wortmauer
While you're welcome to our town in Hinders,
At sunset you'll be cut to flinders.
Then if you run away
And return the next day....
While you're welcome to our town in Hinders,
At sunset you'll be cut to flinders.
Then if you run away
And return the next day....
While you're welcome to our town in Hinders,
At sunset you'll be cut to flinders.
Then if you run away
And return the next day....
While you're welcome to our town in Hinders,
At sunset you'll be cut to flinders.
Then if you run away
And return the next day....
Sam Mickel
370. Samadai
Hinderstap: Anger problems, marital discord. We have your solution here in our nice peaceful village. Come on over stay the night. You can spend a quiet evening discussing your problems. Within 4 or 5 sessions your problems will seem like nothing at all. This is a limited time offer, must accept before Tarmon Gaidon.
Thomas Keith
371. insectoid
*crickets chirping* Hmm... perhaps the crickets are twitching.

Sub @366: Don't you have a dingle ball? I could've sworn we got you one. Did it get stuck under the sofa in the bunker again? ;)

Sub @367 et al: ROFL!! I love that limerick.

Since Jonathan Levy seems to be absent... I had responded to his comment @342 before both were victims of an unfortunate accident...

To paraphrase his comment: Rand is still in college. He likened Rand's women to: a) the girl you nailed when you were both drunk and now she won't give you the time of day; b) the hot blonde who's out of your league and doesn't have time for you, and you're wondering how you managed to score with her; and c) the frat girl you've been messing around with for a while before you realize she's your girlfriend.

What? Photographic memory? I don't know what you're talking about. ;) But I thought the comment was too funny to let stay balefired, so.

Alice Arneson
372. Wetlandernw
Hey, all! This seems like an appropriate time to post this, although I still don't have pictures ready to post.

After the Way of Kings signing in Seattle, Brandon asked the store to send the remaining swag with me for general distribution to the fandom. So... here you go! (Everything is first come, first served. I don't think it'll be a problem, because there's a fair bit of stuff.)

Wheel of Time bumper stickers:
- Bela is a Darkfriend (yellow on black)
- I killed Asmodean (white on black)
- oval Great Serpent (white on black)
- Sly as an Eelfinn (white on black)
- Tai'shar Malkier! (yellow on black)

Those last two are new for Towers of Midnight, and have tiny text in the lower left to say so. If you've seen the Bela or Asmodean stickers, the Eelfinn and Malkier stickers are very similar.

The Way of Kings:
- 9x6" postcards, with ad-blurb on the back and that gorgeous cover art on the front
- 9x4" bookmarks (because An Epic Book Requires an Epic Bookmark; map of Roshar on the back)
- "Brandon Sanderson - The Way of Kings" glow-in-the-dark wristbands, blue on white

By the way, NO ONE gets my Great Hunt Code 17 Great Serpent bumper sticker. Just in case you thought you had a chance... ;)

I'll keep trying to get some pictures on my profile, just for fun. If you want anything, post me a shout with your name & address; mark it "Private" for obvious reasons. If lots of people want stuff and the shipping runs into actual money, I may ask you to consider sharing the cost with me via Paypal, but for now don't worry about it. I promise I will keep your personal info completely personal and private, and will remove it from my shoutbox as soon as I can; that's about all I can do in terms of privacy guarantees. Those of you on facebook can send me a message, if you prefer.

Those of you who have already asked... it's coming! I'm just slow. Thanks for your patience.
Jonathan Levy
373. JonathanLevy
350. LadyCharChar
(note: this is a reply to the pre-balefire 350)
Lord Darlin is crowned King of Tear. Rand had sent a couple of Aes Sedai to negotiate with the rebels in the Haddon Mirk, and this was the agreement they came up with. Rand wasn't pleased with it at first, but quickly came around.

This fulfilled a vision Min had of Darlin the first time she saw him - a circlet of gold with a sword on it. She knew he would be king, but of what country, she could not say.

If I'm not mistaken, Darlin was the High Lord which Mat bopped on the head when he went into the Stone of Tear to rescue the supergirls, way back in TDR.


Och, I left this comment in 'Preview' overnight, and now I come back and we've been balefired!

insectoid @ 371

With your help, I think I've been able to reconstruct it 100%. I must say your 'paraphrasing' was very very close to the original. Most impressive!

You guys got it all wrong! Remember, Rand is still in college:
Aviendha's the crazy b**** you nailed one night after a party when you were both drunk and now she won't give you the time of day.
Elayne's the hot blonde who's way out of your league and you still can't figure out how you scored her.
Min's the frat girl you've been fooling around with for a few months until you suddenly realize she's your girlfriend.
Thomas Keith
374. insectoid
Wetlander @372:

"Brandon Sanderson - The Way of Kings" glow-in-the-dark wristbands, blue on white

So they're "infused" with glow-in-the-dark... neat! (See, Free, you could have told me that.)

Jonathan Levy @373: You're welcome! I guess you could say a little autism goes a long way. Or something like that.

375. alreadymadwithdarlin

Jonathan Levy @373

Yes. Lord Darlin is one of the more common examples for conservation of characters. Mat first encounters him during the fall of the Stone. The first of the High Lords to be seen, it says something of him that he went out to fight, rather competently, in little more than his sleeping clothes. Next we hear of him, he has rebelled, and is hiding out in one of the more inaccessible corners of Tear. Shortly thereafter he travels north to Cairhien to help Caraline prepare for a prospective power grab.

I'd say Min's more of the nice upperclass girl who took you in and showed you the ropes... until you realize you've fallen for her..
James Hogan
376. Sonofthunder
@alreadymad, and to add to that...once you've fallen for Min, you realize she's already had a crush on you since the day she met you and has been stalking you ever since. Just in a really nice way.

And Wetlander, looking forward to those pictures!!
Charlotte Ringer
377. LadyCharChar
Oh no! I log on this morning and my comments have been balefired! I can't remember what I wrote now but there was definitely some mention of Brandy Fruit Cake, Victoria sponge, English Muffins, Scones with Jam and Cream, yum yum!

I would be happy to buy you a dingle ball, any particular colour?

Hello to you too! The story behind my name isn't that interesting but I will tell you if you want, I don't want to bore you though!

Jonathan Levy@373
Yeah I thought it was Darlin, didn't Min also see a crown over Logain's head? (is that how you spell it? I have been playing Dragon Age and I have the other Logain in my mind)
Charlotte Ringer
378. LadyCharChar
Hello! Lots of goodies for you!!

I agree with you, Rand will probably not be in any fit state to rule after the battle. Do you think he will burn himself out? Either way I should think after Tarmon Gaidon all he wants to do is sit in a comfy chair with a good cup of tea!
379. Freelancer
M-o-M @363

Oh, no. Please don't say that. If those limericks are our finest hour...::groan::

Beren @365

ROFLing? Some of them nearly had me ralphing...

insectoid @374

Infused with stormlight, you might say. Just knowing that you were wondering was so much more fun. Wasn't it so for you? Hey, look, sponge cake!

amw @375

Not sure if Darlin qualifies under the conservation of characters thingy. I'd say he was set up with a definite role to play all along, so his preliminary cameo in a fight with Mat isn't the same as say, Paitr reappearing in Amador after his momentary appearance as the bumbling darkfriend in Market Sheran.

LadyCharChar @377

For Darlin, Min saw the crown, with a slightly curved sword across it, and she knew that it was the crown of his future kingdon. For Logain, no specific objects, and no specific interpretation, but a flaring halo of blue and gold which spoke of power and glory to come.

By the way, I feel now is a good time to point out to you and the other recent additions to our crazy crowd here that I am quite happily married. Yes, this seems like quite the non-sequitor, but it's merely a preventive measure for the next time one of the regulars suggests that you feel free...
Charlotte Ringer
380. LadyCharChar
Ah I knew there was something about Logain and glory, I need to have a thorough look at the WOT FAQ I think!

Your happy marriage situation is duly noted, if someone asks me to feel free I shall decline, thanks for the forewarning lol.
Valentin M
382. ValMar
Not much WOT discussion lately, not surprisingly. I personally try not to attach the label of "character conservation" too freely. It has negative connotations and RJ should be given the benefit of the doubt in this 14-book saga, IMHO.

Non-WOT question. Yesterday I watched Juno. Do Americans really speak like that, in general? I hope you do know what I mean.
383. Wortmauer
Freelancer@379: Oh, no. Please don't say that. If those limericks are our finest hour...::groan::

I have this vague disquieting feeling that someone will someday compose a limerick for my epitaph along the lines of what I've inflicted on you guys. The horror! But I suppose it would be only justice. I just hope they make sure it scans OK. One of my secret weaknesses is extra feet in a limerick. Sends me into the same sort of twitching as loose/lose or definately.
VJ Bruce
384. vjbruce
valmar @382
In a word -- no! You're asking rhetorically, right? :) Seriously, I know teens here use loads of slang, but if the teenagers I know are typical, then the dialog in Juno was fairly over-the-top. Now, it may be that teens would like to be as witty and clever in their speech as Juno was in the movie, but that's something else entirely. (And I'm not dissing teens in general, because they can definitely be very articulate.)

It's also possible that all the teens I know are very un-hip or something. But the dialog in Juno reminded me of the dialog in the U.S. television show Gilmore Girls, which also featured lots of witty repartee, and which no one I know is good at in real life.

To bring this back to WOT, I think the dialog in the books is more realistic than either of the entertainments I mentioned. :)
385. Freelancer
LadyCharChar @380

For the quickest access to all of the various WoT "Prophecies", check Encyclopaedia-WoT. From the home page, select Index in the lefthand navigation list, then Prophecies from the top, just beneath the title banner. From there you can select from all of the following:

Aelfinn Answers
Aiel Prophecies
Dark Prophecy
Jendai Prophecies
Karaethon Prophecies
Min's Viewings
Egwene's Dreams
Wise Ones' Dreams
Perrin's Wolf Dreams

You'll also note the links for Characters, Books, and such. Have fun!

Jonathan Levy @383

I am most assuredly NOT being served...

ValMar @382

As a Valley Dude from the 70's, the birthplace & time of the lingo which in the 80's was destroyed by pretenders and produced in movies and on TV as "Valley-speak", I can authoritatively say no. Fer sure. Totally.
386. Freelancer

Actually, and in spite of the humiliation it is only fair that I admit as much, my daughter and I do a fair impersonation of the staccato back-and-forth featured in Gilmore Girls. It usually drives other folks away pretty quickly. ::shrug::
Ron Garrison
387. Man-0-Manetheran
Wetlandernw! Yoo hoo! I'm late to the post, so if I missed out, boo on me. I would love a "Tai'shar Malkier!" sticker. Please, please, please.
Heidi Byrd
388. sweetlilflower
I had a thought about Faile and I am going to share it with all of you. I have heard many negative comments about her and her relationship with Perrin, but I have one really positive thing to write, and that is that she accepts Perrin and his wolfyness. When he first tells her what he can do, she just accepts it and then turns it into a good thing. As bad as Perrin has been with integrating his two natures, how much worse would it be if the person he loves and trusts more than anyone else had freaked out or belittled him? So, there you go, you may feel free to argue the point :)
(Sorry, Freelancer, but I had to throw that in there)
Nazley Frieslaar
389. Nazley
Free @ 379 NO you didn't "Feel free" ROFL *choke*
You nearly killed me!

Wetlander - Free stickers! But what happens when they need to be sent to South Africa, maybe less Free?
Valentin M
390. ValMar
vjbruce & Free @ 384,385
I meant how most of the people in the film spoke not just Juno and other teenagers. I don't know how clever or witty it was or wasn't.
What made an impression on me was the sheer amount of slang. Much of the time it was thanks to context that I undersood what was said. Hence why I was curious if this is widespread in Minnesota and beyond.
My RL notable experience with US speech was when few of the Americans in school were from the deep south and the rest were imitating them, and exaggerating I suspect. I think I'm pretty sure how the Seanchan are meant to sound ;)
Joseph Blaidd
391. SteelBlaidd
for the New Blood
best place to get some analisys is http://13depository.blogspot.com/.

Been Sick and Working 14+days this last couple weeks. :P
VJ Bruce
392. vjbruce
Free @385
A Valley Dude, huh? Totally cool!! I'm a Valley Girl! Ah, the memories. (Haven't lived there since early 80's, though.) And I married a Valley Dude, too. And he's still, like, a totally awesome guy, all these years later.

ValMar @390
So much slang in that movie, yes! Definitely tough to understand some of it. That's true in most cultures, I think. In my experience in a business environment in the U.S., most adults don't use it. At home, though -- who knows? :)

sweetlilflower @388
I will admit it to all -- I like Faile! There, I said it.
Alice Arneson
393. Wetlandernw
Sweetlilflower @388 - Very good point. Not only did Faile accept Perrin's wolf connection unflinchingly, she immediately realized that it could be very useful for the two of them, and proceeded to pass all sorts of info to Perrin at critical moments by saying things too softly for anyone but him to hear. Made him look incredibly smart and well-informed in a couple of very advantageous situations, too.

vjbruce @392 - I like Faile too. Always have, no matter the "majority opinion" that some assume is universal. I don't like every single thing she's ever done, of course, but that's true for every character; it doesn't stop me from liking her quite a lot. She's smart, she's tough (and much stronger from her experience with "what must be endured"), and she's wholehearted. She's young, sometimes stupid, almost always stubborn, and too inexperienced to figure out how to control her reactions to other cultures. She loves Perrin all the way to her toes, even if the way she shows it doesn't always make sense to a non-Saldaean. I think many of us are no bettter than she at making allowances for differing cultures... :) Yeah, I like her.

Nazley @389 - I'll have to check and see what the postage is. It wouldn't be coming express, just regular old "first class mail", so it should be just a couple bucks. I'll get back to you once I figure out a couple of things. Ditto to all others outside North America. I don't think Brandon intended for me to go broke sending stuff (hence no express shipping!) but he knew that I'm in touch with people who would love to have these things, and if they stayed at the bookstore the vast majority would end up in the trash after a few weeks. So - I want to get the goods to everyone I can! As I said, I'll get back to you.
Bill Reamy
394. BillinHI
Wow, sure is quiet... ::crickets chirping:: ... Is there anybody out there or are you all watching the MLB playoffs, college or NFL football?
Thomas Keith
395. insectoid
BillinHI @394: All three. (though I didn't watch SDSU for more than a few minutes.) Looks like the only threads getting attention are the Spoiler and Prediction threads.

Sandy Brewer
396. ShaggyBella
Very quiet here...I have started a
re-listen and I am now into The Great Hunt. I have already noticed one - "give up my hand," Elayne cursing (during first meeting w/Rand) and Mat's new Luck in gambling and his carousing in Fal Dara in Shienar. And Verrin is sneaky
Daniel Hanley
397. dmhman749
Oh, yeah. I loved re-reading the Verin chapters in tGH and tDR (well...all of them in the whole series, really, but some of those were the most interesting) after reading tGS. Some of her actions and comments take on a whole new meaning. *grin*
Franz Antonio
398. Nazgul86
My first comment was actually in part 19. That makes me also new to this group although I was already following this re-read since last year just after the publication of TGS. Well, I started only now because I was generally only reading the re-read and Leigh’s commentary. Little did I know how mind-boggling the discussions are down below.

My poor contributions to the chaos:

Perrin: I generally have no problems with Faile nor with Berelain. My beef is actually with Perrin. I only wish that he love Faile less, just enough to be able to concentrate to other things, and give more attention to Berelain. He probably should have slept with Berelain a few times. Maybe he could be more like Mat had de did that.

Rand: On his 3 loves – no comment.

Mat: My favorite. I like Mat with Tylin. I also like Mat with Tuon. I even would have liked it if Mat and Birgitte became something more that what it was (now, that was a big loss of opportunity). Its probably distasteful but its fantasy anyway so I set all inhibitions aside when I read :-).
Brandon Daggerhart
399. TankSpill
@Wetlandernw, if it's not too late, I would love one of those Tai'shar Malkier stickers! What do I need to do? I would be happy to send you a self-addressed-stamped envelope if you would like.
Thomas Keith
400. insectoid
Wetlander: It's starting to sound like you ought to ask Brandon to make you an Official Distributor of Free Paraphernalia... ;)

...oh. Sorry about that, Free!

Re: Faile... I like her. She's got some hidden badass in her (what's that trope called again?), and she doesn't mind that Perrin is ta'veren or talks to wolves or any of it.

EDIT: 4 Hunny! Sorry about that, ValMar. ;)

Valentin M
401. ValMar
Dear Reader. If you came here to read an insightful comment on the WOT re-read you will be, probably, disappointed. I'm afraid it's merely a grab for the big four double O.
Since I'm one of the few here who have to avoid the spoilers on the other threads there's not much else to do for me. Not much of a discussion lately.
The calm before the storm...
Valentin M
402. ValMar
Damn, you bug!!!
Actually I was going for the big O1, like the previous hunny, 301. Honestly.

As for Faile, I am trying to keep an open mind, waiting to see what she does by book 14 before entrenching my opinion on her.
403. Freelancer
As I wrote about Gawyn on the "Apples First" thread, I can't bring myself to despise any of the characters who clearly identify as Team Light. Wetlandernw, as always, provides the appropriate mindset for viewing the human failings of an individual. What matters is not the decisions made, because those can be flawed by any number of things (invalid, ambiguous, or obsolete source information for example), and not prove the character to be an idiot. My standard is simple; are they operating from noble motives? There are actually very few characters who could be classified as Team Light who fail this test. Pedron Niall and Elaida being the most prominent. Both were more interested in securing their own name's legacy in the histories, than in working toward victory in the most important conflict of their turning of the Wheel. And both did so from positions of extremely elevated power in their respective portions of the land, multiplying their level of responsibility to others, and magnifying the results of their respective failures.

Perrin, for all the bad press he has gotten, was sent West with two objectives. Bring Alliandre to openly support the Dragon Reborn, and put a stop to the depredations of the Prophet and his followers. While the task was to bring Masema to Rand, that was indeed the overall objective, as it was hurting Rand's standing with much of the land because of the cruel behavior of "Dragonsworn". Well, Perrin is now Alliandre's liege lord, and Masema's crowd is no more. Objectives met, and it didn't cost the life of his wife to meet them.
As for Faile, she also has done what she believed best for not only herself, but the people for whom she and Perrin are now responsible. Agree or disagree with her methods, her motives and desires are not in opposition to Team Light.

Insectoid, how 'bout them Raiders?
Daniel Hanley
404. dmhman749
Yeah...the fact that someone is working for the Light is not enough for me. I'm sure many of the Questioners of the Whitecloaks wholeheartedly believe that what they are doing is in the service of the Light. That they are finding Darkfriends, not for their own glory, but to cleanse the land. Those are the best of motives--to save the world from darkfriends. Is what they do in the service of that cause ok?

If Gawyn actually does kill Rand in a fit of uncontrolled rage, is that still ok, since he thought he was avenging his mother, even though he is really murdering the Creator's Champion because he is too stupid to do a little investigating(regardless of if he comes back or not)?

Besides, Gawyn even fails by your own measures. He appears to be more concerned about avenging his mother than about true noble motives OR working for the Light. Placing revenge above the survival of reality is in many ways far more self-involved than anything Niall or Elaida ever did.
M Anderson
405. DevilsAdvocate
Free @ 403

My standard is simple; are they operating from noble motives?
Sorry, but I don't think I can agree with you there. Just because someone has noble motives doesn't meant they're not an idiot. Isn't there some saying about the road to hell and good intentions? While Faile slightly redeemed herself in the prologue of TGS, I still can't get over her manipulation of Loial and treatment of Perrin during the journey through The Ways way back in TSR. The childishness of it all (despite her noble motive of not wanting to be left behind and stay with the man she loves...) just makes me despise her.
Daniel Hanley
406. dmhman749
To DevilsAdvocate @ 405, While Faile has annoyed me through most of the story, I am still willing to give her a chance. She will have to act better than she ever has before to actually earn me not disliking her, but it is possible.

For "The childishness of it all (despite her noble motive of not wanting to be left behind and stay with the man she loves...) just makes me despise her." Keep in mind that she was sixteen at that point. She practically was a child. Which doesn't completely excuse her annoying behavior, no, but it does mean that I am still on the fence waiting to see if she has grown enough out of the events at Maldin to be a character I don't hate. We will see.
Thomas Keith
407. insectoid
ValMar @402: Oops? ;)

Free @403:

Insectoid, how 'bout them Raiders?

Sure, rub it in... They bribed the officials on that last "fumble" call!

Jonathan Levy
408. JonathanLevy
Hey wait a minute! What if Taim is actually Demandred?

(Scorning the bunker, charges madly at the enemy, laughing insanely)
Valentin M
409. ValMar
Have to agree with DA. History is full with people with noble motives. There is Mother Theresa. Witchfinder General, Stalin and Mao too. You can also throw in there Masema if you like. Berelain has noble intentions- protecting her small country. Some people still hate her though. Different people different standards I guess.
Noble intentions aren't enough for anyone, IMO.

Insect @ 407
Just bad luck for me, and it ain't competition. No worries.
Sandy Brewer
410. ShaggyBella
How about them Giants?....Sorry Atlanta.

The Cold Fat Raindrops chapter title reminds me of "Chubby Rain" the title of the movie created in the "Bowfinger" movie spoof. A really low budget SciFi produced by Steve Martin (Bowfinger) and starring Eddie Murphy (in 2 rolls) back when he was funny.

~twitch~ I got nothin' else
Leigh Butler
411. leighdb
Hey guys,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news again, but there is no post today. The next Re-read post will go up Friday, and all my crazy scheduling plans will be explained then, I totes swears.

See y'all Friday!
Jessica Thompson
412. CFP
Thanks for the update!

Stay happy and healthy. :)
413. Freelancer
Hmm. Between now and Friday I could make a fortune selling some anti-twitch cream.

If I had any.

It's alright, through Lord of Chaos and cruising. Three weeks, 6-1/2 volumes to go. No time for twitching.
John Massey
414. subwoofer

Anti-twitching cream? Heck, we may need to call out the riot police at this point, I saw an angry mob forming with burning torches and pitch forks and everything. They even took the time to dress as shabby villagers.

We miss you Leigh! Please come back! They may burn that Steampunk club to the ground and then go after TOR central.

Am on KoD myself and plugging along. The thing I am getting from re-reading these books is that I am actually paying attention to chapters I would otherwise skip over. And suddenly, what other folks have noticed are jumping off the page to me. If I could be bothered I'd be refuting the odd post here as some things in the text really contradict what is said, but hey, we are all friends here and I want to keep the peace as much as possible(not including the angry mob) so I'll just be here, setting on me lawn chair, sippin' me 7&7.

415. MasterAlThor
Ok I need to start paying a bit more attention.

First, Leigh takes #411. That is offically mine since it is my bday. Oh well finders keepers and all that.

Second, Leigh you promised that we would get a post today. We were good. No one shut down the site. No real flame wars. I think that you should send your copy of ToM to some of us as a way to make up for today. Please???? Pretty Please????

LTT says your dad would do it, so you should too. I told him that you probably have some type of Oath preventing you from doing it. To which he replied, "I got your Oath Rod..." So I said, "Hey this is NC 17, watch your launguage!"

Errr, yeah so anyway Leigh hope all is well. I got LTT in check for now so don't worry about a thing. See ya on Friday.

John Massey
416. subwoofer

M A T- you said nuthin' to me about a B-day!

Edit- never mind- false alarm- I get it now- 4-11 is your b-day.


you know how hard it is to clean up silly string and confetti?

Heidi Byrd
417. sweetlilflower
M A T, I don't think I'll ever get to claim a post if we are going by birthdays. Mine would be 908. :( Perhaps if we didn't have so many other threads to play with, this one would have reached that high.

On the Faile commnets, she annoys the heck out of me, but she does accept Perrin's wolfyness.

On the noble intentions, when I think about it, I would excuse certain actions if they occured due to good intentions. I am not sure how to explain my stance. If Gawyn refuses to be in the same room with Rand b/c he believes that Rand killed his mother, that is okay. But, if he kills Rand b/c he thinks Rand killed his mother, then that is revenge, which is not noble by definition. There is a differences between sticking to your principles in yourself, and forcing your beliefs on others through words or actions.
However, I will say that Gawyn needs someone to explain to him that Rahvin was Gaebril. Yes, Egwene told him Rand did not kill his mother, but her reasoning to him was that she just knew Rand would not do something like that b/c he loves Elayne. Many people have expressed their belief that Rand is innocent, but no one has been able to offer anything except supposition and beliefs to Gawyn. Anyway, Fain obviously infected Gawyn.
Thomas Keith
418. insectoid
Leigh @411: Ooh, this is gonna be good... I can tell! ;)

Free @413: If you had any, I would gladly have an order of anti-twitch cream! (With a side of Claritin. I'm getting over a cold.)

Sub @414: LOL!

Tess Laird
419. thewindrose
So, MasterAlThor is going to be 411!?!
Guess that means he didn't have to take any oaths;)

Post 411 - Head meet desk!! I mean, I hope you are having a great time away!

Ron Garrison
420. Man-0-Manetheran
Hey, that's OK Leigh. We're all preparing for the Towers of Midnight in our own way. I'm listening to Knife of Dreams in the car and reading The Gathering Storm - not at the same time, of course. It's hard to read and drive.

Like Sub, I'm paying closer attention to parts I might have sped through before. Yesterday was a big whoop for something I had completely forgotten: Berelain punching Galina's lights out! "Was that too hard?" LOL.

Ooo. Ooo. 4-2-0 FTW!
Thomas Keith
421. insectoid
Man-0 @420: Berelain punched Galina's lights out?? When was this?

Dorothy Johnston
422. CloudMist
To avoid twitching, why not come up with alternate names for the Darryl Sweet covers?

EOTW is easy -- We're Off To See The Wizard.
I can't think of good ones for TGH or TDR.
TSR -- Home On The Range
FOH -- ?
LOC -- Las Vegas Elvis
COS -- Pumping Iron
POD -- ?
WH -- Dashing Thru The Snow
COT -- ?
KOD -- ?
TGS -- I'll Never Go Hungry Again (from "Gone With The Wind)
Dean Byington
423. Baladune
@421 insectoid
Berelain slapped the snot out of Galina at her request in Perrin's camp after she was captured for questioning by Gaul. The smack was so hard almost knocked her on the ground and made her head swim/ears ring. Galina wanted to convince Therava that she had been acosted by bandits.
424. OwMasha
@422 CloudMist: TGH - Don't Be A Menace to Shienar while Using Portal Stones in the Hood?

TDR - The Hardy Boys: The HoverSaber of Tear

.. or not.
John Massey
425. subwoofer
@Cloud- TDR- every time I see that all I think is-

"By the power of Grey Skull!"

Captain Hammer
426. Randalator
CloudMist @422

EoTW - The Seventh Man
TGH - Black Men Can Lurk
TDR - Blade Floater
TSR - Breakfast At Rhuidean's
TFoH - City Of Lost Heroes
LoC - Love Me Tender Aes Sedai
ACoS - Hercules In Shadar Logoth
TPoD - Charge Of The Eight Cavalry
WH - Snow Falling On Goldeneyes
CoT - Ashandarei Of Sherwood Forrest
KoD - Why Perrins Don't Listen And Galinas Can't Read Maps
TGS - Rand al'Thor & The Quest For The Holey Manor
ToM - Three Men And A Ghenjei
Sandy Brewer
427. ShaggyBella
@423. Baladune @421 insectoid

Galina wanted to convince Therava that she had been acosted by bandits.

The best thing about that was Therava was very mad that Galina's face was bruised. She had all her hair burned off with the power, made her go naked. She was also hung from her ankles and beaten.

"Therava was particuarly upset over the bruises. She herself never marred Galina's face. What followed easily equaled her nightmares. And lasted much longer."

Thomas Keith
428. insectoid
Baladune @423 & ShaggyBella @427: Thanks... I had forgotten about that. Probably because it's in the PLoD... ;)

Sub @425: It all makes sense now... Rand is He-Man! xD

Rob Munnelly
429. RobMRobM
To all the GRRM fans - an interview today, confirmed by publishing co., includes the nugget that GRRM only has five chapters to go in Book 5, and all five have at least some text written already. He projects to finish no later than December. Yip, yip, yip, yippee!

Thomas Keith
430. insectoid
RobM² @429: That's nice to hear! I'll tell my mom. (As for myself, I'll keep that in mind if I ever get that far...)

Rob Munnelly
431. RobMRobM
insectoid - how far are you in them? Storm of Swords (book 3) is very good and pulls a big surprise/shock out towards the end....
Wayne Wilson
432. stylusmobilus

That is wonderful news. Enough to make me put my assignment down, log in and say thank you for making my day.

Thomas Keith
433. insectoid
RobM² @431: Oh... about 9 chapters into A Storm of Swords. I've been busy doing other things lately, and haven't gotten back to reading it yet. Probably won't start in again until after Towers of Midnight. Might read Gauntlgrym, too, when I get a copy.

*twitch* Where's that cream...

Jonathan Levy
434. JonathanLevy
426. Randalator
Great names! But shouldn't tPoD be the charge of the light brigade?
"Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of death rode the six hundred ."

429. RobMRobM
GRRM only has five chapters to go in Book 5, ...He projects to finish no later than December. Yip, yip, yip, yippee!

Pardon my skepticism (having waited five years? seven?) but did he say in which decade lies this long-awaited December?
James Jones
435. jamesedjones
426 Randalator
KoD - Why Perrins Don't Listen And Galinas Can't Read Maps

You don't see it? It's the Great Mustache Match of the Third Age! The young upstart against the wiley veteran; judged by Lina. How will she decide?
James Hogan
436. Sonofthunder
Hey, I forgot about this thread! We have so many active threads going, gosh!

If we keep it up, we just *may* get to my birthday post(518). Hmm, I need to think of something controversial to up the post rate.

And RobM, I think you asked me this on another thread...but yep, this is my first time reading ASoIaF, so please NO SPOILERS! All I know about the series is that GRRM has a fondness for killing characters, so I'm really trying not to get too attached to anyone. I'm nearing the end of Clash of Kings. And I really really really despise Theon "the Punk" Greyjoy.

All my WoT books are thousands of miles away and I couldn't justify buying new ones just for a reread...but I did buy the paperback of TGS, so in a few weeks, I'll re-read it right before ToM. My little sister is currently reading the series for the first time and is now reading TSR. I have to be *very* careful discussing with her, just because I don't want to mention something that's already taken place. I almost let slip the White Tower split before I realized she hadn't gotten there yet.

Wow, we're down to the last twenty days. And this post is very random - apparently I should lay off the coffee. Cheers, y'all!
Tricia Irish
437. Tektonica

You have good instincts re: Theon "the Punk" Greyjoy. Keep reading!

Thanks for the good news RobM. I saw that somewhere cruising around the internet, and just harumphed. Even if he does finish in December, pardon my skepticism, it'll be a year before it appears. (It'll probably come out just about the time A Memory of Light does. Fah! That'd just be the luck.)

Where are you in Malazan? Enjoying?

Randalator and Cloudmist: ROFLOL. Very good. More please!

My contributions:
The Shadow Rising: Wagon Train or How the West was Won.
Fires of Heaven: Zombieland

TEofW: loved We're off to see the Wizard!! LOL.
Rob Munnelly
438. RobMRobM
Wow - looks like Tor at my post. Short version: Your welcome; yes, you should keep reading as SoS is my favorite, with good stuff ahead; as with my Boston Red Sox winning baseball World Series after 86 years of frustration, sometimes bad things do come to an end - GRRM's problem was not effort but the creative issue of how to get key players into the same place in the correct order for plot development (the so-called "___ Knot") and he has now figured it out, so I am more than hopeful that December 2010 is a real date (that will allow for publication in the midst of the Spring 2011 broadcast of Game of Thrones on HBO, a huge marketing and publicity coup for both products); and, yes, Theon is a punk with (no spoilers) an interesting path ahead.

Tek - I am almost half way through book 9, Dust of Dreams (plus a few chapters into Night of Knives to boot), and yes I am enjoying the series quite a bit. Not my favorite ever but enjoyable and worth reading.

Rob Munnelly
439. RobMRobM
Either Tor or my computer is acting up, so I apologize for the typos in my laast post - insert "ate" and "You're" at the appropriate points, SVP.
Captain Hammer
440. Randalator
JonathanLevy @434

[i]Great names! But shouldn't tPoD be the charge of the light [b][i]brigade[/i]?

Damn, why didn't I think of that?
Daniel Smith
441. Smittyphi
Cloudmist @ 422

1. A Midnight Stroll
2. The Scavenger Hunt
3. The Air of Arthur (oh the puns on this one!)
4. The Traveling Circus
5. Battle for the Abandoned City
6. The Tamer of All
7. Halloween XI - Shadar Logoth
8. (Humbly refraining as nothing comes close to "charge of the light brigade").
9. Cold Leadership
10. Mat and the Multi-Colored Party
11. Masterplanning Misfits (Why Men Don't Listen)
12. Vengeance is Mine!
13. The Tale of Three Thieves
New Spring - How the Stroll Started
Elena Vaccaro
443. EarthandIce
Just in case it shows up in some sort of wierd space/time continum, the site ate my post, attempting to do so again.

Just checked Brandon's Blog where he has an update post on his writing schedule. Short of it is Memory of Light might/probably will not be out in a year from now, but in the spring of 2012.


I am also a bit skeptical on the publication date of GRRM. I might just wait until the entire series is published to finish reading it. And with this series it is not wise to get attached to any character. That is one of the reasons I think I like WoT and Malazan, you can get attached and not get really ticked off if the character ‘ceases to function physically’.

Loved the alternate titles, and yes Charge of the Light Brigade does make sense (I have used the charge line on several occasions when I was wondering about the feasibility of a project).

Also reading over at Malazan, almost finished with Bone Hunters. Took a bit of time and went over the The Dresden Chronicles for a bit.

Oh, I have pumpkin bread if anyone is interested. Forgot, have cream cheese for the bread
444. hamstercheeks
CloudMist @ 422:

The Eye of the World = Follow the Woman Riding Side-saddle
The Great Hunt = Everyone Wants My Horn
The Dragon Reborn = By the Power of Greyskull
The Shadow Rising = A Meal Before Dying
The Fires of Heaven = After the Firebombings
The Lord of Chaos = Desire
A Crown of Swords = He-Man Arrives
The Path of Daggers = Follow My Sword
Winter's Heart = Snowy Stroll
Crossroads of Twilight = I Think We're Lost
Knife of Dreams = This! Is! Map!
John Massey
445. subwoofer
Hmmmmm seems to be time to start killing time. Right , lemme take a crack at this one.

EoTW - White Women Ride Ponies
TGH - Great Yes... Didn't Say Hunt
TDR - Quest for the Piñata Whacker
TSR - How to Leash a Forsaken
TFoH - Spread Out! Find Waldo!
LoC -Lord of the Tight Pants
ACoS - Does this Tunic Make My Butt Look Big?
TPoD -Break it, Break it, Break it!
WH - When I get My Hands on Rudoph!
CoT - We Should be Able to Spot Red Stripes in this Forest
KoD - How to Marry an Empress in 51 Days
TGS - That Hole is Going to Cost Me an Arm and a Leg!
ToM -No, No, That is Not a Big Metal Phallic Symbol- Who Taught You that Word, Olver?!- Shut Up Noal!

Chris Chaplain
447. chaplainchris1
Hey, I didn't know folks were playing over here still! *grumps*

Ooh, pumpkin bread and cream cheese. *end grumps*

Sweetlilflower @ 417 - I was gonna use 123 as my birthday post, but by this logic I now realize I have to use 1203, which occurs...infrequently. *new grumps*

Of course, TOM will be out in TWENTY DAYS. *And* I've got the day off from work. *end new grumps, do happy happy dance*

Man, I've gotta remember not to do that dance during the workday. Now my co-workers want to know what the crash was. (I gotta little carried away.)

Subwoofer, post some contradictory posts please! Tell us what you're reading that goes against common wisdom. We need stuff to do, as I can't just keep eating digital pumpkin bread all day.

In that spirit, I post the following Wall o' Text.

I finished Knife of Dreams last week and have now been listening to The Great Hunt - which is a random progression, but I found an almost-new Audio-CD version at a used bookstore last week for only $20. It's funny! I mean, when I first started the series in 1996 - devouring the first 5 books in a week - I didn't have time to notice stuff like that. But at this stage Rand and Egwene and Mat and Perrin are so...so...teenagery! They're totally silly and don't realize it, and that's always fun...especially with the deadly seriousness of the later books.

It's also interesting to see the foreshadowing. Our first encounter with Siuan, in her first conversation with Moiraine, has her talking about not wishing to be the third Amyrlin in history to be deposed of staff and stole and then stilled. Oops! (And I was surprised, after Siuan's told Egwene about all the secret rebellions and stuff, to be reminded that only 2 Amyrlins in history have *officially* been pulled down. Those 2 are Tetsuan, who betrayed Manetheren, and Bonwhin, who made Hawkwing mad enough to besiege Tar Valon. Makes it (a little) easier to see why the Hall did nothing about Elaida for so long.)

Siuan also mentions that a deposed Amyrlin can't/won't be allowed to run free where she could potentially be a rallying point for opposition. Uh, yeah, guess that happened! She *also* mentions that no one could possibly rally to a woman who's scrubbing pots all day, which is interesting in light of Egwene's experiences in the Tower.

Sneaky Verin is interesting. So far, I note that Siuan recruited Verin and Leane to help her and Moiraine Heal Mat, after the dagger is stolen. Since they were looking for someone else they could trust (at least to not blame Mat for being tainted by Shadar Logoth) to be in on the Healing, that implies great trust in Verin. Interesting that Siuan picked her and not Anaiya. Interesting that Siuan's sort-of wrong to pick Verin, since she's Black Ajah. I wonder if Verin has to report on what happened to her superiors, and if she lies about it.

I've also paid more attention than ever before to the make-up of the Amyrlin's party. There are 14 + the Amyrlin (Siuan) and Keeper (Leane). I'd never paid attention to realize that there are 2 sisters from each of the 7 Ajahs making up the total of 14. Gives new significance to the protests that were raised about the Blues having 4 representatives, counting the Keeper and the Amyrlin. Things really *were* unstable in Siuan's Hall.

I'm also noting the pervasive Black Ajah influence - at least 3 of the 14 sisters sent with the Amyrlin and Keeper are Black (Alviarin, Liandrin, Verin). That's about the same percentage of Black to Light as in the Tower as a whole. I wonder if we have even more reason to be grateful to Verin than we realized. Verin is taken into Siuan and Moiraine's confidence here, and the Black are clearly suspicious and know something is up - they've had the Darkfriend Social, seen pix of the three boys, Liandrin is Compelling folks in Fal Dara and will follow Moiraine soon, and the Supreme Head of the Blacks is present. (Fal Dara's getting crowded with high muckety-mucks, hosting at once the Dragon Reborn, the Amyrlin Seat, the Supreme Head of the Black Ajah, and of course Mordeth.) Verin would certainly be questioned on what happened with Siuan and Moiraine - and I can only think she lies and dissembles. Without that, would the Black have tried even harder to corner Moiraine and Siuan and find out what they were up to?

Ok...that's stuff I'm thinking about. Any of it interest you folks? Anybody else see anything more interesting in their re-reads?
Bill Reamy
448. BillinHI
Yeah, re-reads really make for some major differences in how the reader views things going on in the books. I'm re-reading TGS and remember well that on my first read I was convinced that the woman looking for Mat or Perrin was Graendal (or at least one of the other Forsaken). I'm still not sure I totally believe Verin's story about the Pattern forcing her to look for Mat or Perrin. I'm almost convinced that she (along with other DF's, of course) has been ordered to find either Mat or Perrin and eliminate them. Being a mole for the Light, she only obeys the first part of her orders. The problem with that, of course, is how did she know where Mat (or Perrin) would be?

I also remember my total shock at the chapter title "Death of Tuon" on my first read. I mean, WTF! You can't kill off a character who is obviously so important to the story. I am still hoping for a major change of heart from (For)Tuon(a) as I really, really hate the Seanchan culture in general. I know, they provide some good things, but at a very great cost, IMO.
Thomas Keith
449. insectoid
CloudMist @422, et al: ROFL!!

Sonofthunder @436:

And I really really really despise Theon "the Punk" Greyjoy.

So do I, so do I. And just about everyone named Lannister, too! ;)

Sub @445: ::falling on floor laughing::

ChaplainChris @447: Nice analysis!

Tricia Irish
450. Tektonica

Nice summation! Thank you. I started over on a complete reread a few months ago...Samadai got me going by comparing the beginning of TEotW and the end of tGS.

I was so struck by the innocence of our heros and the girls. Teenagery indeed. It really made me sad.....so much is lost in the transition to adulthood and responsibility. The key, I suppose is to find the life and fun and sillyness, even while dealing with the real world.....and their worlds got pretty serious, pretty fast. Sigh. Their character arcs are steep.
451. Wortmauer
RobMRobM@429: To all the GRRM fans - an interview today, confirmed by publishing co., includes the nugget that GRRM only has five chapters to go in Book 5, and all five have at least some text written already. He projects to finish no later than December.

Years late, he learned the bitter lesson not to try projecting his finish date. But I do seem to remember last time he was optimistic enough to give a public clue - in spring 2009, the work was going well and he hoped to finish it by summer 2009.

While I don't think GRRM is my bitch (thanks, Neil Gaiman), I do read his updates about traveling to cons, hanging out in the UK with the HBO shoot, editing anthologies, and find myself wondering how in the world he finds any time to work on his magnum opus. I mean, it's his choice to work on it or not, but it just looks like he has chosen to be too busy to write.

chaplainchris1@447: Fal Dara's getting crowded with high muckety-mucks, hosting at once the Dragon Reborn, the Amyrlin Seat, the Supreme Head of the Black Ajah, and of course Mordeth.

Never thought of it that way! Too bad neither Ba'alzamon nor Pedron Niall dropped in. Or Elder Haman.

BillinHI@448: The thing about a title like "The Death of Tuon" is that putting major spoilers into chapter titles just isn't done. So it had to be allegorical in some way.

I think I do believe Verin's ta'veren tug tall tale. She didn't have to spin it to explain how she found Mat; he (and we) would have bought happenstance or an Aes Sedai scout/spy network.
Rob Munnelly
452. RobMRobM
"So do I, so do I. And just about everyone named Lannister, too! ;)"

insectoid - That conclusion may get more interesting as you get deeper into Book 3 and especially Book 4.

Wert @451 - but he's now solved the Knot, which he has been hacking at for several years. I'm feeling good about this (and la la la I'm not listening to discouraging words about this any more la la la).

I'm totally not buying the Verin bull-line. Lying to Mat for his own protection.

Sandy Brewer
453. ShaggyBella
chaplainchris1 @ 447
I guess I will try to claim 1202. We might get there, the rate we are going. (with no Leigh posts, sob) but we can have a nice party in December!
454. Freelancer
Verin had no reason to lie to Mat about how she came to be looking for him. What added value could there have been to concocting a tale stranger than those personal back-stories Mat had written out for his crew? The pull of a ta'veren is not controlled by the ta'veren, we've surely seen that time and again. It is subject to the Will of the Wheel. It is no more difficult to believe that the Wheel needed them to meet than any other ta'veren oddity we've witnessed.

Sorry blind. 4+5+4
Antoni Ivanov
455. tonka
452. RobMRobMI'm totally not buying the Verin bull-line. Lying to Mat for his own

I don't think Verin lied but she largely exaggerate it. Everyone is so concentrated on Rand being gigantic ta'veren that Perrin and Mat almost come as afterthought. I think she did exaggerate because she wanted to beat in Mat's tick scull, make him understand how important he is. Mat and Perrin are central to all this almost as much as Rand is and Verin realizes this and the Shadow realize that (hence Moridin's orders which Verin knows about). But Mat and Perrin seem not to.
Theresa Gray
456. Terez27
I see no reason to question the truth of what Verin said to Mat. Things are getting very dire at this point, and the Web of the Pattern is tightening. Things are stepping up.

Rob@452 - Wert might be offended. Not that Wort said anything offensive or untrue, but Wert is one of the biggest GRRM fanboys out there, lol.
Theresa Gray
457. Terez27
chaplainchris1@447 - I find new and interesting things on every re-read, though admittedly I find fewer things these days than I did way back when.

Also interesting are the troubles Siuan mentions she is having in the Hall. Talene was certainly behind the trouble with the Greens, and Galina might have been behind the collusion with the Reds. It is not necessary that any of the Red Sitters be Black, but Amira Moselle was one of the Red Sitters at the time (the other two were Teslyn and Pevara, whom we are relatively sure are not Darkfriends). Amira was made Mistress of Novices when Sierin Vayu became Amyrlin, and it seems that Sierin was a puppet of the Red - or perhaps the Black. Sierin's Keeper was Duhara, whom we are sure is Black.

Also, two of the White Sitters and two of the Green were among those who mentioned the '4 Blue sisters'. Talene was probably one of the Green, and Velina was probably one of the White (she is also Black). She said the Yellows 'muttered among themselves' but did not speak for or against. One of the Yellows was Black - Sedore - and the muttering probably came from the fact that Sedore was ordered to vote with the Blacks, but was not allowed to do so:

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 21 - A Mark
Elaida studied her for a moment, then gave a satisfied nod. The woman’s eyes still shone with emotion, though. Lifting the lid of one of the three lacquered boxes on her table, she took out a small, age-darkened ivory carving of a turtle and stroked it between her fingers. Fondling the carvings in that box was a habit she had when she wanted to soothe her nerves. “Now,” she said. “You were explaining to me why I should enter negotiations.”

“We were not asking permission, Mother,” Suana said sharply, thrusting her chin out. She had too much chin, a square stone of it, and the arrogance to thrust it at anyone. “A decision of this sort belongs to the Hall. There is strong feeling in favor of it in the Yel­low Ajah.” Which meant she had strong feelings. She was the head of the Yellow Ajah, the First Weaver, something Alviarin knew because the Black Ajah knew all the Ajah secrets, or nearly all, and in Suana’s view, her opinions were her Ajah’s opinions.

458. MasterAlThor
So i was doing my own reread of tGS and I came up with an interesting thought. Please feel free to tear this apart.

So my thesis is this: Randland will be different at the end of the Last Battle.

Now for my support of said thesis.

We know of at least 2 major wars since the end of the Age of Legends. Each of those changed the face of the nations. Some were eliminated altogether.

There are plenty of clues to this all through the books, but I am gonig to focus only on tGS right now. Chapter 44 Scents Unknown, Rand is discussing with Nynaeve his battle plans. When I first read through this I thought man Rand is just being hard. But lets take a closer look shall we?

"I don't plan to abandon the southern lands, not at all. When the Trollocs punch through the Gap, they will break up into fists to invade. That's when my forces will hit them, led by Bashere. Travelling by gateway to strike at each group of Trollocs from the sides or behind. That way, we can pick the best battlefields to suit our needs."

Nynaeve has a reaction to this that is very telling in my opinion.

The Seanchan would wage their war to the south and the west. The Trollocs would attack from the north and the east. The two would meet, eventually. Andor and the other kingdoms would be turned into a massive battleground, the people there----good people, like those in the two rivers----would have no chance against such warfare. They'd be crushed.

So Rand plans to fight the Last Battle his way. And that means sacraficing some of the middle kingdoms and the borderlands.
We also know that there are kingdoms with no leaders to run them. Well what does that mean? Simply this. Those kindoms are done for.

Here is a list of the countries I think are going to bite the dust.

Cairhien. Why cause without effective leadership nothing can survive the Last Battle.

Arad Doman. Same thing as Cairhien and they have the added trouble of starving to death. No one wants to take responsiblility for that.

Saldaea. Whoa wait a minute. Perrin is supposed to be come the new king of Saldaea. What gives? Well I will tell you. Perrin can't be Lord of Two Rivers, Lord Protector of Ghealdan and King of Saldaea all at the same time. So, what better way to fix that problem than destroying one of them. My money is on Saldaea.

Andor. Ok now that killed the flaming goat! your out of your mind. No, no I am not. Andor won't be destroyed. But it will lose some of it's holdings. It might even go through a name change. Andor as it currently exsist will no longer be after the Last Battle. Thus why Perrin will be able to ressurrect Manetheren.

Something else to think about. If you know the legend of Ragnarok, at the end a man and a woman come out of the Tree of Life to start the world anew. Perrin is the builder and that could make Faile the Mother archtype. Thus the Two Rivers would be the cradle of life. See where I am going with this.

There are all kinds of things in the books that point to Randland changing after the Last Battle. And let us not forget that the world is not done with battle. The upcoming throw down with the Seanchan is going to be epic and that will its effects on Randland changing too.

So please pick this apart (looks at Terez, Freelancer and Wetlander).


Oh and one more thing. I will not be 411 on my birthday Tempest. Thankyouverymuch. And even if I was that would make you what???? Oh, an even 666? Just sayin.
459. AndrewB
Sweetlilflower @417 said: "... Fain obviously infected Gawyn."

What support do you have for this statement? From what I can recall, Fain never came in contact with Gawyn. I think Gawyn beleives the rumors that he heard about Rand killing his mother and sister (for example, see his converstation with the peddler in LoC.

Chaplainchiss1 @447: I disagree that the presence of Suian and Leane effect the balance of sisters per Ajah. By tradition, the Amyrlin Seat and her Keeper are not counted as a member of the Ajah they came from (see conversation that Suian had with Moraine in TGH). It was like they stated: politics of the White Tower.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Daniel Hanley
460. Kythorian
Well...first, yeah, I think we all know that Randland is going to change following the last battle. It already has a great deal with the Seanchan arrival, Andor and Cairhein's likely combination, the re-creation of Manetheren, etc. I'm sure it will more.

But most of the specifics of your theory seem to revolve around the battle plan Rand came up with when he was Dark Rand. I'm 100% certain that this will not be the plan anymore when Rand returns from his revelation at dragonmount. The whole plan was...well, pretty evil, if likely effective. Rand is no longer evil, so that plan no longer exists. So while I'm sure there will be battles other than in the borderlands(the shadowspawn still have plenty of waygates), it won't be as Rand described it. He will do everything he can to save as many as he can, not just singlemindedly kill as many shadowspawn as is possible, without regard to the cost in non-soldier human life, as he was before.
Daniel Hanley
461. Kythorian
To AndrewB, Gawyn and Fain were in the tower at the same time following the Coup...We never actually see them meet, but it would explain some of Gawyn's absolute certainty that Rand killed his mother and was evil. Though we had already seen Gawyn's bad decisions at work during the coup itself, so who knows. I guess we can RAFO.
Tess Laird
462. thewindrose
Smiles at MasterAlThor - I will be just a sec - I need to get my Blue Dress on. You were saying:)...
I do agree there is going to be a geopolitical breakup of Randland. Maybe there will be a new Manetheren which consists of The Two Rivers, Ghealden and Saldea(I am sure you don't want to get rid of those Saldean farm girls.)
Andor will become a larger nation swallowing up Cairhien and other areas. The Forth Age has a place called Great Aravalon(LoC Prologue).
Maybe Mat will get a chance to name some places in Seanchen, when he and Tuon get over there.

463. Wortmauer
RobMRobM@452: "So do I, so do I. And just about everyone named Lannister, too! ;)"

insectoid - That conclusion may get more interesting as you get deeper into Book 3 and especially Book 4.

Oh come on, how can you not love Tyrion all the way back to his introduction, about 50 pages into book 1? Dude puts a permanent smile on my face. Easy to see why he's GRRM's favorite character.

but he's now solved the Knot, which he has been hacking at for several years.

Sure. And I hope you're right, I really do. But I'll believe it when I see it. He's also said that books 6 and 7 might each only take a couple years, book 5 was the anomaly. While I understand the reasoning, there too I will believe it when I see it.

OK, this thread isn't the time or place for Ice and Fire, but we've been twitching for like a month. (Well, half a month.) And the anti-twitch cream turns out not to be Free after all.

Terez27@456: Rob@452 - Wert might be offended. Not that Wort said anything offensive or untrue, but Wert is one of the biggest GRRM fanboys out there, lol.

Ha, I hadn't even noticed that I'd been conflated with The Wert. Didn't know he was such a fanboy. I am too, though, come to that.
Donna Harvey
464. snaggletoothedwoman
Hello everyone**waves** I have a question for the gurus. Has anyone ever seen any evidence of Gawyn being compulsed? He was with some of the Black sisters for quite awhile. Just wondering, his attitude has drasticly changed from the sweet kid at the Palace to the raving lunatic. I understand people change in adversity, but this is too much!
Oh, Chocolate cake with fudge frosting for the bunker, lets munch..
Tess Laird
465. thewindrose
snaggletoothedwoman - Freelancer loves that idea!!! Feel free to discuss that one;) I reserve judgement until I read the last two books, however I am fond of the idea. Others have suggested that he has been 'touched' by Fain(I think that terez27 is of that mind). However, I like the idea that (was it you subwoofer?) there will be a large Trakand reunion and everyone gets to slap some sense into his head(special spanking services could be provided by Lei...yeah nevermind;)

Captain Hammer
466. Randalator
MasterAlThor @458

That theory is pretty much a non-theory and more of a fact-ory. Just take a look at the prologues and epilogues:

- Boanne, Songmistress at Taralan, the Fourth Age
- Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age

There is going to be major changes in the transition from Third to Fourth Age. I don't think there is much need for discussion or picking apart...

snaggletoothedwoman @464

Yep, the idea has already been discussed in earlier installments. I think there was a tie between the "of course, his brain has been compulsified to a bloody pulp"-camp and the "no, he's just a bloody idiot"-camp...
John Massey
467. subwoofer
First off- I'd like to say that I don't think that Gawyn is all bad, IIRC Egwene says he has nice hair... that's gotta count for something.

I do like the idea that Gawyn was compulsed- that would explain the 180 degree turn around in character- but he seems to be driven by his smaller head these days- well, we'll call it his heart- because he did abandon the Younglings to go sit outside Egwene's tent on a daily basis.

Personally, I think the reunion, like most things in WoT is about everyone communicating and being on the same page. They don't have cellphones, phones, email/M'Hael's etc so communication is not good at the best of times. At the end of the day, all this will be relegated to the "drama" department and Rand & Co can get on with the business of the Last Battle.

Rand/ War reshaping the land- yeah, you can see that coming a mile off. Things have changed while reading the durned series. It is a safe bet that things are going sideways for many countries. Look at the bright side, after Berelain and Galad hook up, the White Cloaks will have a new home and Mayene will have a large standing army. Yay... that is, if most of the Children are not cannon fodder after the Last Battle.

Theresa Gray
468. Terez27
News flash: 'compulsed' is not a word. 'Compelled', on the other hand... :)

I'm not convinced that Fain and Gawyn had contact. It's not necessary to explain Gawyn's mistrust of Rand...but it could. It would make a lot of sense. It wouldn't explain his mistrust of Siuan, but it's not necessary to explain that, either.

I'm less convinced that he might have been Compelled. It would have probably been too difficult to predict he was going to come into contact with Rand at all, for a Black Ajah, and there is no evidence that any of them know Compulsion anyway (and evidence against - like Sahra Covenry, for example).
John Massey
469. subwoofer
If we play that game- Aes Sedai, ta'veren, Ogier, channelers etc are not words either, at least according to my spell check. I felt compulsed to say that;)

Fain made me do it.

What? It'll work for Gawyn...

Theresa Gray
470. Terez27
lol, you were hardly the first to use the non-word in this thread. I see it all the time. Just felt the need to spread the word...
Jack Diamond
471. violetdancer
There is another choice between Compulsion and being a douche. I posted this way back (and Free just loved it too ;D). Lanfear admitted to checking out Egwene's dreams and found Goofus (oops, I meant to type Gawyn) in the them. Being the jealous cat she was at the time, perhaps she left a dream suggestion that Egwene forget Rand and be in love with Gawyn. I thought it explained Egwene's sudden interest in him.

Also being very smart as well as very jealous Lanfear may have put a similar suggestion in Gawyn's dream. Such as, protect Egwene the woman you love at all costs, especially from that nasty bad Rand al'Thor, y'know, your enemy. Ok, ok, I'll go back to lurking now.
Kat Blom
472. pro_star
An interesting thought violetdancer. She did seem to flop quite quickly from "Going to marry Rand" to "Galad is so pretty! *drool*" to "yay Gawyn! Galad who?"
Happy Friday everyone!
Daniel Hanley
473. Kythorian
I don't really buy that...Egwene was shifting away from Rand from pretty early in the first book. Lanfear probably wasn't even free at that point, and certainly didn't know Rand was the DR, and therefore couldn't have possibly started this plan until tGH. And Egwene was already far more dedicated to becoming Aes Sedai than the whole loving rand thing by that point. As for Gawyn vs. Galad, while she did think that Galad was beautiful (along with everyone else in the White Tower), she seemed to like Gawyn more from the very beginning. Go re-read the early meetings between Egwene and them in tGH...it is pretty clear from the beginning that Egwene is probably going to end up with Gawyn, not Galad.
Wayne Wilson
474. stylusmobilus
I had a thought, and to quote MasterAlThor, please feel free to tear this apart:

Say the True Power, because it is the essence of Turd Excelsior, tunnels its holes outside the Pattern. This allows Shadowspawn to pass through, as it circumvents the Pattern, and shields them from dying somehow, as they have no souls. This might explain mass movement of Shadowspawn without Little Stinky around to bribe Machin Shin.

edit: Has this been weighed, measured and found wanting?
editx2...sub@445, Quest for the Pinata Whacker...LOL

*throws a few Mars Bars into the bunker....
Daniel Hanley
475. Kythorian
To stylusmobilus @ 474, the fact that such a method was not used during the War of Power means it is probably pretty unlikely to be possible. And shadowspawn have been using the Ways without anything to bribe Machin Shin for a while...they just go in a constant stream of groups of a couple dozen. They loose some of them, but most make it through. The Shadow is fine with some losses if it gets his shadowspawn where it wants them quickly and without any pesky armies to bar their way.
Wayne Wilson
476. stylusmobilus

You sure it wasn't used during the War of Power? I might be missing it but I don't recall hearing that anywhere.
Sanctume Spiritstone
477. Sanctume
“Oh, Light!” Egeanin said hoarsely, sinking to her knees. “You madman! It’s death by slow torture to lay hands on the Daughter of the Nine Moons!” The two sul’dam gasped, and knelt without hesitation, not only pulling the two Aes Sedai down with them but gripping the a’dam right at the collar to force their faces to the floor.
Mat grunted as though Tuon had just kicked him square in the belly. He felt as if she had. The Daughter of the Nine Moons. The Aelfinn had told him truth, much as he hated knowing. He would die and live again, if he had not already. He would give up half the light of the world to save the world, and he did not even want to think about what that meant. He would marry… “She is my wife,” he said softly. Somebody made a choking sound; he thought it was Domon.
“What?” Egeanin squeaked, her head whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to slap her face. He would not have thought she could squeak. “You cannot say that! Youmust not say that!”
“Why not?” he demanded. The Aelfinn always gave true answers. Always. “She is my wife. Your bloody Daughter of the Nine Moons is my wife!”

This is definitely one of my favorite parts of the series.

Daniel Hanley
479. Kythorian
To stylusmobius @ 477, They don't specifically say that such a thing doesn't exist, but the fact that shadowspawn can't go through gateways was one of the main advantages the side of the Light had during the War of Power. Of course, the Shadow had plenty of darkfriends, but the fact that they couldn't send hordes of trollocs through gateways kept the Light from being totally overwhelmed. It was discussed during one of the interviews with RJ, I believe...or possibly one of the questions of the week he used to do. I don't remember.

Besides...if there was a method to gate them around with the true power, they would have done so by now in the current age. Instead, they keep sending hordes of trollocs through the Ways, loosing lots of them as they do it.
480. Tridon
The part where Mat paces back and forth in his room, while going through the plan in his head, is simply the best piece of writing in this entire series. The atmosphere is nothing but perfect. One of the best written parts of any text I've ever read. Normally Leigh tends to comment a bit more on these insanely great parts, but it seems she forgot, and instead spent time commenting on the chapter title :p Oh well. Here Jordan really showed that he could be amongst the best of all writers.
481. Gabster
Well, I bet there aren’t too many people out there who can claim their marriage vows had actual profanity in them.
You have just inspired me to say "f*** yes" instead of "I do"...

Subscribe to this thread

Receive notification by email when a new comment is added. You must be a registered user to subscribe to threads.
Post a comment