Fri
Aug 6 2010 2:27pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Winter’s Heart, Part 8

Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so, but the Wheel of Time Re-read, man, that’s for reals.

Today’s entry covers Chapter 11 of Winter’s Heart, in which Lessons Are Learned, Lines Are (Finally) Crossed, and I get all horological on your ass.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of information regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And now, post, incoming, six o’clock!

Chapter 11: Ideas of Importance

What Happens
Trying not to vomit from holding saidin, Rand steps through the gateway into a thankfully empty storeroom in the Caemlyn Palace. Lews Therin begs him to let go of the Source, comparing it to being in the Pit of Doom, and he does so as soon as Min steps through. Min immediately has a sneezing fit from the dust they’ve kicked up, and he wishes she had been willing to stay in a dress, as her outfit will unquestionably draw attention. She demands to know why he’s thumbing his ear at her “like a loobie,” and he replies that she’s beautiful, to which she snaps back that she gave up everything else for him, so forget about the dress; and anyway she needs to be recognized, since Rand won’t get anywhere with the ugly Mask of Mirrors disguise he’s wearing. He acknowledges her point, and says as long as they finish quickly before anyone suspects he’s here.

“Rand,” she said, her voice soft, and he eyed her warily. Resting a hand on his chest, she looked up at him with a serious expression. “Rand, you really need to see Elayne. And Aviendha, I suppose; you know she’s probably here, too. If you—”

He shook his head, and wished he had not. The dizziness had still not gone completely. “No!” he said curtly. Light! No matter what Min said, he just could not believe that Elayne and Aviendha both loved him. Or that the fact they did, if it was a fact, did not upset her. Women were not that strange! Elayne and Aviendha had reason to hate him, not love him, and Elayne, at least, had made herself clear. Worse, he was in love with both of them, as well as with Min! He had to be as hard as steel, but he thought he might shatter if he had to face all three at once. “We find Nynaeve and Mat, and go, as fast as we can.”

Min lets it go, and they exit the storeroom quietly, and Rand thanks his ta’veren-ness that the hall is empty. They don’t get far before running straight into Reene Harfor, who recognizes Min. Min is delighted to see her, and asks if Reene can take them to Nynaeve al’Meara or Mat Cauthon, as “this fellow” has something to deliver to Nynaeve. Reene gives Rand’s unsavory disguise a suspicious look, and answers that she doesn’t know any Mat Cauthon, but offers to take the package to “Nynaeve Sedai” for them.

Rand jerked upright. Nynaeve Sedai? Why would the others—the real Aes Sedai—let her play at that still? And Mat was not here? Had never been here, apparently. Colors whirled in his head, almost an image he could make out. In a heartbeat it vanished, but he staggered. Mistress Harfor frowned at him again, and sniffed. Likely she thought him drunk.

Min frowns, but replies that she thinks Nynaeve… Sedai wants to see “Nuli” (meaning Rand), and asks Reene to show him to her rooms while Min takes care of something. She sprints off before either of them can say anything, and Rand thinks furiously that she is going for Elayne, and might ruin everything. Reene is very distrustful of “Nuli,” but agrees to take him to Nynaeve, giving him a sharp look when he forgets himself and walks next to her instead of behind. As they head through the corridors, Rand senses a large number of women channeling, and asks Reene how many Aes Sedai are in the Palace; Reene reluctantly replies that there are five, counting Lady Elayne and Nynaeve Sedai. Rand is disappointed that there are only three “real” Aes Sedai, as he’d hoped there were more perhaps ready to follow him here. He wonders where Mat is, and again sees the colors, this time accompanied by what he thinks might be Mat’s face, and he stumbles again, which doesn’t improve Reene’s opinion of him. He’s beginning to regret coming here.

Nynaeve is teaching Talaan shielding techniques, furious that Sareitha had ditched her turn, forcing Nynaeve to take it instead. She gets past Talaan’s defenses, and tries not to be upset that Talaan already matches Nynaeve’s strength and hasn’t even reached her full potential yet. The other Windfinders in the room (and Zaida, who attends every lesson even though she cannot channel) interrupt Nynaeve, discussing what she did and ordering her to try again; Nynaeve is just grateful Renaile is not there. This time Talaan succeeds in shielding Nynaeve, to her shock, but only Nynaeve bothers to congratulate her on her success. Nynaeve tries to end the lesson, but Zaida commands she do it again, and Talaan succeeds in shielding Nynaeve a second time. This time Zaida commands Talaan to hold the shield, and decides to test Nynaeve’s claim that it was almost impossible to break a shield without being much stronger than your opponent by threatening to flip Nynaeve upside down at the count of five. Nynaeve ends up struggling with every ounce of strength to break the shield and prevent that humiliation, but is unsuccessful, even though she notices for the first time that there is a “soft point” to the shield.

“Did she truly try as hard as it seemed, Kurin,” the Wavemistress asked finally, “or was all that thrashing about and whimpering just a show?” Nynaeve tried to summon an indignant glare. She had not whimpered! Had she? Her scowl, such as it was, made no more impression on Zaida than rain on a rock.

“With that much effort, Wavemistress,” Kurin said reluctantly, “she could have carried a raker on her back.” The flat black pebbles of her eyes still held contempt, though. Only those who lived at sea got any respect from her.

Zaida orders Talaan to release her and dismisses Nynaeve abruptly, telling her same time tomorrow; Nynaeve points out that it is Sareitha’s turn, but Zaida replies that Nynaeve’s teaching is “more edifying” than the others, and if she doesn’t show she will be fetched. Constrained by their terrible bargain, Nynaeve forces herself to make the ritual obeisance of a Sea Folk teacher before leaving, though she does make a point of slamming the door behind herself. In the hall, she runs into Alivia, who gives her the message that Mistress Corly and three other Kin would like to see Nynaeve at dinner, and it is not phrased as a request. Nynaeve demands to know what Alivia is doing without an escort, trying not to be uneasy in the extremely powerful former damane’s presence, but Alivia has stopped being obsequious to anyone a few days ago, and just shrugs.

“There wasn’t anyone free, so I slipped out by myself. Anyway, if you always guard me, you’ll never come to trust me, and I’ll never get to kill sul’dam.” Somehow that sounded even more chilling, delivered in such a casual tone. “You ought to be learning from me. Those Asha’man say they’re weapons, and they aren’t bad, I know for a fact, but I’m better.”

She repeats Mistress Corly’s “invitation” and strolls off. Nynaeve knows that the “dinner” is nothing more than an excuse for Reanne et al to criticize how the Aes Sedai are allowing themselves to be treated by the Windfinders, and is wishing she’d never thought of teaching them to have backbone when Talaan dashes up to her to beg breathlessly to be taken to the White Tower, as she will never be “chosen,” referring to the token (and weak) Sea Folk channelers who get sent to the Tower in order to keep Aes Sedai away from their people. She tells Nynaeve that she cannot stand it anymore, being twice as harshly driven as anyone else simply to avoid showing favor to her clan, which is very highly honored already. Amazed, Nynaeve replies that she can see Talaan wants it very badly, but—Talaan takes this as agreement and thanks her profusely before dashing off, ignoring Nynaeve’s shouts that she hadn’t promised anything. Lan appears, and comments that she looks like she ate a “rotten plum.” Nynaeve hugs him, thinking of the utter disaster Talaan was going to create, and thinking that soon everyone would be ordering her around like the Windfinders.

“Do you remember how you kept me in our rooms yesterday morning?” she murmured, looking up in time to catch a grin replacing concern on his face. Of course he remembered. Her face grew hot. Talking to friends was one thing, but being forward with her own husband still seemed quite another. “Well, I want you to take me back there right now and keep me from putting on any clothes for about a year!” She had been quite furious about that, at first. But he had ways to make her forget to be furious.

He threw back his head and laughed, a great booming sound, and after a moment, she echoed him. She wanted to weep, though. She had not really been joking.

They return to their rooms to find Reene Harfor there with an extremely ugly man carrying a scrip on his shoulder. Reene tells Nynaeve that the man claims to have something Nynaeve needs urgently, and Nynaeve embraces the Source immediately as Lan goes on guard, alerted somehow by her face. Then the man tells her Mistress Thane sent him, on “Women’s Circle business,” about Cenn Buie. Nynaeve stares at him, and slowly says she remembers now. Reene is highly suspicious, but leaves. Nynaeve begins to demand to know how he knows those names, and the man ripples and changes into Rand; Nynaeve is astounded that he knows how to disguise himself with the Power.

“I see you didn’t take your own advice,” Rand said to Lan, just as if she were not there. “But why do you let her pretend to be Aes Sedai? Even if the real Aes Sedai let her, she can get hurt.”

“Because she is Aes Sedai, sheepherder,” Lan replied quietly. He did not look at her either! And he still seemed ready to draw his sword in a heartbeat. “As for the other… Sometimes, she is stronger than you. Did you take it?”

Rand looked at her then. To frown disbelievingly. Even when she pointedly adjusted her shawl so the yellow fringe swayed. What he said though, shaking his head slowly, was “No. You’re right. Sometimes you’re just too weak to do what you should.”

“What are you two blathering about?” she said sharply.

“Just things that men talk about,” Lan replied.

“You wouldn’t understand,” Rand said.

Nynaeve sniffs, and lets go of saidar, knowing she doesn’t need to protect herself against Rand, even though she thinks he looks harder than she remembers. She tells Rand they know about Cairhien, and tells him Egwene can help him; Rand replies he’s not hiding exactly, just until he kills some “men who need killing,” and doesn’t see what Egwene can do, assuming she’s in the Palace as well. Nynaeve growls back that Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat, and has an entire army with her; she thinks there’s no safer place for Rand to be than with her and three hundred sisters to protect him. Rand stares at her in surprise, but then rather dryly disagrees. He asks if Mat is with Egwene’s army, then clutches his head and staggers. Nynaeve jumps up and Delves him, discovering the new wound on top of his old unHealable one, and a shield on them both which she realizes must be saidin. She backs off uneasily.

[Rand] looked down at her calmly, and that made her shiver. He seemed another man entirely from the Rand al’Thor she had watched grow up. She was very glad that Lan was there, hard as that was to admit. Suddenly she realized that he had not relaxed by a whisker. He might chatter with Rand like two men over pipes and ale, but he thought Rand was dangerous. And Rand looked at Lan as if he knew it, and accepted it.

Rand turns to his leather scrip and pulls out two heavy statuettes of a man and a woman holding crystal spheres aloft. He asks her to keep these safe for him until he sends for both them and Nynaeve, after he takes care of his men. He explains what they are.

“I was told by… someone… once, that a man and woman using those sa’angreal could challenge the Dark One. They might have to be used for that, one day, but in the meantime, I hope they’re enough to cleanse the male half of the Source.”

If they can do that, Lan asks, then why wasn’t it done in the Age of Legends? Rand snaps back that he doesn’t know, or care; it has to be tried. Lan points out that it could get Nynaeve killed, and is clearly not about to allow that. Nynaeve has already made her decision, however, and knows neither of them will like it.

“I think it is a wonderful idea,” she said. That was not exactly a lie. It was wonderful, compared to the alternatives. “But I don’t see why I should sit here waiting for your summons like a serving maid. I’ll do it, but we all go together.”

She had been right. They did not like it one bit.

Commentary
I remember when I first read the beginning of this chapter, and realized Rand was in the Caemlyn Palace, that my reaction was to physically sit up straight, in an “oh holy crap” kind of way. Because, did this mean that two of the myriad relentlessly parallel-for-centuries storylines of Our Heroes were actually about to cross?

Liek whoa, y’all.

It really says something about the structure of the later WOT books that even the mere possibility of Rand meeting up with one of the Supergirls, let alone Mat or Perrin, felt like such an event to me. An event named FINALLY, GOD.

Although, I looked it up, and Perrin was actually the last one of our Hero Starter Kit who saw Rand in person, in ACOS a little over a month earlier. At this point Rand hasn’t seen Mat, Aviendha, or Egwene since the middle of LOC (or, almost three months), and he and Nynaeve haven’t been together since the end of TFOH (or almost five months). In reader time, that translates to four years for Perrin, six years for Mat/Aviendha/Egwene, and seven for Nynaeve.

But the winner is Elayne, who at this point has not been in the same room with Rand since the Stone of Tear in TSR—or, in other words, almost nine months for the characters and eight years for the reader.

That is some crazy shit right there.

Of course, post-TGS the “winner” for “goes longest without seeing Rand” is up for grabs between Egwene and Mat, neither of whom (unless I am very much mistaken) have been in the same room with him from mid-LOC through the end of TGS. I have, to my surprise, been unable to locate even a summarized chronology of TGS online, so I don’t know how much in-story time it encompassed, but KOD ended six months after the last time Mat or Egwene saw Rand in LOC, so we’re at six months and counting at the bare minimum—for the characters.

And while this (probably) doesn’t beat Elayne’s record in internal chronology, in reader time that is—wait for it—FIFTEEN YEARS. AND COUNTING.

I know, right?

So… yeah. Anyway, given all that it is probably not too surprising that the idea of Rand and Elayne meeting up here had me bouncing in my seat, more or less literally.

Of course, then what happens but we cut to Nynaeve getting humiliated, at frickin’ length, by the goddamn Windfinders, which in my opinion may qualify as a violation of the Eighth Amendment. That was a low blow, WOT.

Seriously, could I hate them more? I think I could not! What kind of lame-ass culture believes that teachers should literally be punching bags? Or, for that matter, believes in treating anyone as if it’s acceptable to test them to destruction? I mean, yes, okay, in America we don’t exactly treat teachers with the respect they deserve either, but at least we only underpay them and overwork them and keep them in horrible and sometimes dangerous working conditions and force them to adhere to arbitrary and absurd standards and…

Um.

…right, moving on then!

So I didn’t get my Elayne reunion in this chapter, but I did get a Lan-Nynaeve-Rand one, which was almost as good. It made me happy that Nynaeve still automatically trusts Rand enough to release saidar around him, though perhaps incongruously I don’t blame Lan for remaining on guard at the same time. His and Rand’s semi-cryptic exchange about weakness was great even as it made me roll my eyes a tiny bit. I disagree with the female characters on a lot of what they call Rand a woolhead about, but this isn’t one of them.

And, I SUPPOSE the Windfinder interlude in this chapter did a pretty good job of justifying (certainly in MY eyes) Nynaeve’s determination to basically drop everything and run for the hills with Rand. If I had been her I would have been on his heels like white on rice, y’all. Talk about getting the hell out of Dodge… And it’s not like she won’t have Her Man with her.

Speaking of Mr. Kinky Lan, HAHAHA. Naked games in the bedroom, eh? That is completely awesome. It’s always the quiet ones, man!

Alivia: Is much creepier than I remember her being. But I guess being a slave and forced to blow shit up for four hundred years might screw with a person’s head just a tad. Hell, I have to imagine just living that long no matter what you’ve been doing has to skew your perspective to some extent. This has always been a thing I’ve kind of wondered about in stories where people live triple or more a standard human lifetime. I mean, watching everyone you knew growing up get old and die while you still look like you’re in your twenties; how can that not mess with your head?

Ta’veren Telepathy in Technicolor™: Reception’s getting clearer, I see. A little more tinfoil on those rabbit ears and we’ll be good to go!

Also, nice little grace note in this chapter, with Rand forgetting himself and walking next to Reene instead of behind. It’s a little thing, but it’s the sort of detail that jumps out at me, as an indication of just how much Rand’s changed since the self-effacing farmboy we met almost exactly two years ago (in internal chronology; for the readers, a decade). Just throwing that in there.


And having thrown that in there, I am also throwing in the towel on this a-here post, for I is slippin’, slippin’, into the future! Enjoy your weekend, chirren, and I will see you on the flipside!

218 comments
Gaidal
2. Gaidal
Another great post, Leigh! Can't you do these every day? Two times a week just isn't enough.
Bryan Cogswell
3. shmoo
Happy Friday!

Ok. Now to read this without the boss knowing...

This is like a very slow drip drug. Always leaves me wanting more. More. More.


More.
Brett Michie
4. bchurch
Awesome as always, Leigh. Thanks again for all your hard work.

I too remember thinking Finally, God at this point.

Here's hoping ToM will bring more, much anticipated reunions.

Oh, and lol at Hero Starter Kit.

--edit for stupid spelling error . . grrr.
Andrew Belmont
5. rosetintdworld
For me the funniest part of this chapter is when Nynaeve is staring at the ugly stranger standing in her room and babbling about Cenn Buie, and thinks: "That was Women's Circle business." As if that is anything approaching the weirdest thing about the encounter! This strikes me as a very accurate portrayal of how your mind works when you are totally confused and need to grasp on to some kind of truth to steady you. I chuckled quite a bit.

Anyway. I hate the Windfinders, and I hate hate hate Nynaeve's extended "punishment" that begins here (or a little before,) and continues until she gets her awesome back in KOD. (Because, let's face it, the adventure in Far Madding only gives her opportunities to look foolish, and she never really takes much credit for the Cleansing. Which speaks to her growing maturity, but whatever.)

Thanks for doing all the internal and external chronology research, Leigh, so we don't have to. I agree that in WOT, main characters bumping into each other is always way more exciting than it has any right to be.
Bonnie Andrews
6. misfortuona
Thanks Leigh.

Stupid Sea Folk. That's all I've got to say.

Mis-would like to sink the whole bloody fleet
Sandy Brewer
7. ShaggyBella
I love Nuli. In the audio book, Michael Reading does a great country accent.

Rand's ugly disguise:
Anyone looking at him would see a man inches shorter and years older than Rand al'Thor, with lank black hair, dull brown eyes and a wart on his bulbous nose.

... And in one corner of the room was a roughly dressed, lumpy fellow with a horrible wart on his nose and a script dangling heavily from his shoulder.

I love it.
Max Espensen
8. Andvari
Only one chapter? :-( I don't even remember this being a beefcake either.

As ever though, some wonderful turns of phrase to appease us, Hero Starter Kit was my favourite. With all these "reader years" numbers flying about I'm really quite glad I only got into it just before Knife of Dreams was released. The TGS wait (admittedly the most traumatic what with RJ shuffling off the mortal coil and all) was one I would never want repeated.

Re: Alivia. Why is she, despite 400 years and having effectively no memory of anything different before that, so freedom-happy and willing to embrace her rightful place as a shit-powerful channeller? All other damane that we have seen are so programmed to be subservient and view themselves as property and like pets (and indeed Mylen adjusted to that view in a matter of months). Is it just sheer strength of willpower, or is directly related to her incredibly large strength in the Power? Is it explicitly mentioned at all why she is so unusually confident?
Brandon D
9. Ishmayl
Pretty much an interlude chapter. Oh well, other than Lan and Nynaeve's conversation, not really a lot of interesting going on.

And seriously, some Seafolk need to receive some serious frakkin UPPANCE, and SOON. I really, really hope RJ planned some sort of ridiculously awesome redemption for that entire race, because otherwise, I'm currently hoping they just all die horribly in the Last Battle.
diane heath
10. jadelollipop
My thought was that Lan's ? had an easy answer (perhaps too easy). In AOL both Powers were clean. No need to clean them. AOL ended when Saidin was tainted after DO sealed away. I was thinking that the CK was not available but then realized it was...IIRC some wanted to use them to seal the Bore???
But with the Breaking of the World
1. No one would trust a man with access to the CK
2. The location of the CK (or the access keys) were unknown.

Edit for #3 (thanks LC @ 13) The connection to Shadar Logoth escaped me.
Sadly far too many refuse to acknowledge that Rand has a clue about anything he does. They should walk in his shoes (for a day even) and then Shut Up :)
R B
11. MasterAlThor
Slippin, slippin into the future. I got that.

Yay me!

Rant

So this chapter here is the reason why Alivia should have won that dang tournement we had a few months back. But noooooo....you chumps forgot all about that didn't you. Nynaeve vs Alivia and Nynaeve wins. What a bunch of malarkey.

Rant Over

Rand and Lan goodness. I don't care I don't think either of them is being a woolhead. You love someone enough to want to keep them out of danger cause if you lose thme, you might become Perrin on his worst day.

You know it's true. You can't argue with that logic.

Dragon

Edit
Sharon E.
12. Sulin
Thanks Leigh! LOL@ "Hero Starter Kit."

Yay, Lan! (quiet men, indeed). :D

Love the little detail of Rand's forgetting himself, too. He's come so far, yet still has a long way to go.

Alivia-creepy, yet awesome. I mean, she likes to blow stuff up!

Oh, one more thing: Die, Seafolk, die!!!!

SulinoftheIAgreeWithMySpearSisterAiel
Gaidal
13. Lurking Canadian
I've always thought Rand's statement to Lan (about how he doesn't know why the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends didn't use the Choedan Kal to cleanse the source) was strange. He knows damned well why not: the Aes Sedai didn't have access to Mashadar, because there was no such thing.

I know Jordan is still trying to be cute and not tell us Rand's plan, but I still think Rand should have said something like, "What I'm planning wouldn't have been possible then". Not only does this have the benefit of being true, it also would give Nynaeve and Lan an enhanced sense that he knows what the hell he's doing.
Gaidal
14. BenM
Top 10 (not!)

The Sea Folk, like, suck, totally okay?

Seriously, how rude are they? They're even rude to each other, let alone anyone else.

Only one chapter today, bummer.... plus we still have to wait almost a whole month for Way of Kings. :(
Maiane Bakroeva
15. Isilel
Well, very funny and and on the whole enjoyable chapter, IMHO. I love Nyn-Lan and Nyn-Rand interactions and amazing mutual trust between the latter 2. After all the misunderstandings and suspicions, that was just beautiful.

Yes, Windfinders are pretty hateful. But... Nyn made this "bargain". Does she have the moral right to run away and unload it on unfortunates who had nothing to do with this fiasco?

Talaan - what on earth happened to her? Will we see her as Dreadlady next? On one hand, I'd like it, because the Shadow badly needs some competent and strong channelers to be a bit more menacing. Also, there was a lot of talk of Shadow recruiting SGs early on, but nothing in that vein after TFoH.
But OTOH the implication that being dissatisfied with one's culture and abuse it bestows makes one evil would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

As to Alivia, possibly the fact that she was collared so early was a blessing in disguise as there likely was little need for breaking her. Maybe that's why she recovers so easily. Also, it isn't like she'd be the first in the series to make an U-turn once their prior beliefs were shattered. I mean, consider all these Aiel who throw away spears and go into service in Far Madding! Also, she was clearly touched by Rand's ta'veren influence, IMHO.
Tricia Irish
16. Tektonica
Just one chapter?! Oh no! The next one is such a goodie too!

Thanks, Leigh. I agree with your total disgust, dislike, disdain of the Seafolk treatment of the AS, especially Nynaeve. I like the solution someone had on the open thread, I think, that Egwene should tell the Seafolk that they're not being taught properly, and insist they be put in novice white! LOL....that would be rich.

Nice to see Talaan want to learn and be AS too. That should rock the SF world. Isn't it her mean sister that tortures her so?

Loved seeing Lan laugh out loud. So nice that he has found some happiness after decades of warderdom, losing his AS and being so alone. Nynaeve, you rock....and I used to dislike you so much!

And why is Lan so wary of Rand? I guess he doesn't know him quite as well as Nynaeve. I'm happy to see her drop her guard around him anyway and agree to help him immediately.

I also loved Rand's ugly disguise and how he lets Nynaeve know that he's from the Two Rivers. Nynaeve's amazement at Rand's ability when he drops his disguise is telling, as well. He is learning fast, appears "harder," and has some BIG plans.

I loved that Min is so selfless that she runs off to find Elayne, inspite of Rand's admonition not to. I wouldn't blame her if she wanted to keep him all to herself as long as possible, but she is thinking of Rand's mental health more than her own, and does the right thing. I know she has had her visions and knows what will be, but still.....I *heart* Min.
Gaidal
17. RSmillard
Thanks for the great post, Leigh.

However, I think you may have left out a "slippin" at the end - it's "slippin, slippin, slippin into the future" - three "slippins"

Fly like an eagle!
Lucas Vollmer
18. aspeo
Good post Leigh!

This chapter continues to fuel my dislike for the SF. I realized they probably aren't all like this, but the ones that are seriously need to be taken down about a hundred pegs! I wish the AS would get a clue and realize that even though they said they would teach the SF, they never agreed to teach them according to the SF way of doing things. (At least I'm pretty sure they didn't agree to that, and if they did... then well... that pretty much sucks for them I guess) It's really pretty sad if a channeler with such great potential as Talaan is almost begging to be taken away from her culture because she gets treated so badly.

I did enjoy Nynaeve, Lan, and Rand all meeting up together though. I really like how Nynaeve can still automatically trust Rand even though she sees how much harder he has become.

One last thing. I loved Nynaeve asking Lan to take her to their rooms and not let her leave for a year! LOL I loved Lan's and eventually Nynaeve's reaction to this too. It's great to see characters have a good laugh sometimes, even if Nynaeve meant it seriously at the time.

Andvari@8
I firmly believe that the "reader years" between books is what makes these plot lines seem to drag on so badly. They may not be the most engaging compared to some of the earlier book plots, but they are moving the story along in their own way. Now that I am following along with the re-read these plots don't seem nearly as bad as I remember them. I guess I'll just have to wait until we're firmly in the middle of them to be sure though.
Gaidal
19. EarthandIce
I thought the CK were not finished until after the Bore was sealed. I will have to go look that up.

I really like Nynaeve's innate trust of Rand, that he will not do anything to hurt her. Lan is just being his normal Warder Self, recognizing in Rand the same dangerous quality as in himself.

I also like Min taking it on herself to go find Elayne and Aviendha. It shows her acceptance of her choosing/having to share. I am not sure I could do it.

Ok, went and checked WoT Encyclopedia and do not have my books at the moment, and the reference I was looking for was not quoted. If I remember correctly, the CK were in the works before the Bore was sealed (Lanfear and Asmodean know about them) but I seem to remember they were not finished until later.

Just going to go Slip-sliding away..........
Lannis .
20. Lannis
The "reader time" math blows my mind... and reminds me just how long I've been reading this series. Oh the bitter-sweetness that will be AMoL...

And I remember on first read thinking, "wait, Rand's in Caemlyn? Holy shit!"


Thanks Leigh, have a great weekend! :)
j p
21. sps49
I think the CK were finished, but the areas with the access keys were overrun. Gotta check tSaSG.

And Lan is reacting to Rand's potential, not his intentions.
andrew smith
22. sillyslovene
Yeah, so I think that Leigh hit on something important for the reason people don't like this part of the series- mainly it's the fact that no "cool" people have interaction. I was on encyclopeidaWOT the other day, looking at their synopses of the books. They have these little plot thread diagrams that show chapters and peeps and how they interact. Starting halfway through LOC all the plot lines stop converging and go straight across with hardly anyone meeting or interacting with anyone else through until tGS, and then, it's only slight by the end.

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

I guess that just means ToM and AMOL will just be that much cooler as people actually start running into each other...
Janet Hopkins
23. JanDSedai
re: Talaan's relatives

It is her mother and her aunt that ride her so hard, although she says she will miss her mother if/when she goes to the White Tower.

And my second time through the series I was amazed at how fast things are actually happening; so much so that I started a calendar and mapped out the events of the 7-9 books. And then I found Steven Cooper's Timeline of WOT, which was so much more complete that anything I could come up with.

I, too, was enthralled by the fact that two plot threads were coming together (in every sense of the word!). It was truly a feeling that "this *had* to happen". The writing was true to the plot, and also true to the characters.
Morgan Crawford
24. Jenesis
Bummer I was really looking forward to the Lily in Winter summary
Kev Hamm
25. cavynmaicl
Ah, the wonder that is watching the SF learn. I want to know when the Windfinders to the Sailmistress of the Clans of the Annoying Boat People will ever actually try the weaves themselves. Am I right in thinking that seeing the weaves isn't enough, they have to actually weave them to remember them? And how would the WttSofCofABP have reacted when Talaan wrapped a shield around her and turned her over for a good spanking. Especially her Aunt Horrible!

I think the AS need to point out that the ABP agreed to have AS teachers, and even if Egwene can't convince them to put on novice white, the fact that teachers should see their students doing the weaves should be obvious. Having to make the kids take out the WttSofCofABPs to show them how well they've learned. Shouldn't be that hard, really.

And yes, I'm over-abbreviating things because I like making others feel as lost as I am when I'm rereading some of these posts. Yeesh, we're worse than the military.
Matthew Smith
26. blocksmith
Leigh

Another great re-read...makes Fridays even better.

I have to admit that the brief romance scenes between Nynaeve and Lan definitely make her seem more real and more likeable (not that I ever didn't like Nyn, except during her self-flagellation stage relative to Birgitte).

Hoope you all have a great weekend.
Debbie Solomon
27. dsolo
I've been lurking for a while, but decided to jump back in with a comment after reading Leigh's timelines. This was the first book that I had to wait for, as I came to the series late. I remember being disappointed, as I wanted to see Faile rescued, and the story seemed like a lot of filler. When KOD came out, I reread all the books, and discovered that it made much more sense. I still think some of the descriptions could be pared down, but the action wasn't as slow as I remembered. I really appreciate the rereads, as they enhance my understanding. BTW, I didn't remember Nynaeve noticing the soft spot in the shield before - I smell a foreshadowing.
lin mei
28. twicemarked
I think the interaction between SF and others are written like how the former military personals interact with civilians, in a civilian setting.

Civilians tend to think the former military personal are very rude. But the former military personals just think that is how they always behaved, in a military setting.

So the SF just need to learn they are no longer on a boat, and their law no longer applies.

As far as the SF's uppance. By this time, most of the SF are under the control of Seanchan in Ebou Dar. So strickly speaking, they have paid. It is just that the annoying SF are shown here on screen, but their suffering are off screen, until Mat set them free.
Theresa Gray
29. Terez27
@Leigh - your boy Steven Cooper did as well as could be done with the TGS in-book timeline:

http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book12

...as mentioned by JanDSedai@23.

EarthandIce@19 & Sps49@21 - according to one of Rand's earliest Lews Therin memories, they were finished only after the Bore was sealed:

[quote]TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

There were angreal, like the round little man in Rand's coat pocket, and sa'angreal, like Callandor, that increased the amount of the Power that could be safely handled as much over angreal as angreal did over channeling unaided. Both were very rare, and prized by Aes Sedai, though they could only recognize those attuned to women and saidar. These two figures were something else, not so rare, but just as highly valued. Ter'angreal had been made to use the Power not magnify it, but to use it in specific ways. The Aes Sedai did not know the intended purpose even of most ter'angreal they had in the White Tower; some they used, but without knowing whether the use they put them to was anything like the function they had been made for. Rand knew the function of these two.

The male figure could link him to a huge replica of itself, the most powerful male sa'angreal ever made, even if he were on the other side of the Aryth Ocean from it. It had only been finished after the Dark One's prison was resealed – How do I know that? – and hidden before any of the male Aes Sedai going mad could find it. The female figure could do the same for a woman, joining her to the female equivalent of the great statue he hoped was still almost completely buried in Cairhien. With that much power... Moiraine had said death could not be Healed.

But that is in conflict with the BWB:

TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 4 - The Fall Into Shadow

Just as the sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The ter'angreal required to use them were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal, because of the danger of uncontrolled resonances during the final stages, and that region was overrun by the Shadow forces under Sammael. Fortunately the ter'angreal themselves were hidden and the place where they were made destroyed just before the invasion (it had been a secret all along), so neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of the tools of Power were within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to use them; without the ter’angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out by the huge flow of the One Power probably within minutes.

Lews Therin Telamon argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that it was now the only chance; yet Latra Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplaced seals had spread, and more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the Fateful Concord, even many who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the circle. Latra Posae managed to have agents sent to attempt to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory.


Since the BWB is supposed to be a human-error-riddled history-type thing, then I'd normally be inclined to trust Rand's memories, even though he hasn't quite yet realized where they are coming from (he realizes a few paragraphs later when Lanfear shows up). But it's hard to say. In the last chapter of WH, Lews Therin says that they were never tested, and that at least fits with the BWB. Maybe that's what Rand meant the first time; testing is, after all, an essential part of production.
Gaidal
30. Lambada
TGS Chronology, as well as for all the main books:
http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book12
Gaidal
31. AppleBrandy
Hm.. I see that Leigh buys into the NEA propaganda. Funny that. Back in WOTworld, I don't see how the Sea Folk could possibly have such a dumb law about 'shorebound' teachers. The only thing would be if it was created to stop there being any shorebound teachers - because who would work under those conditions with something to teach?

I bet there are at least 20 Sea Folk Aes Sedai, and they should send only them as teachers.
Thomas Keith
32. insectoid
Yay, new post! Thanks Leigh!!

Not much to say, except that this Nyn-Lan-Rand reunion was a long time in coming, and is about to get awesomer. And... the Sea Folk need to take a long walk off a short pier. Because I Said So.

Terez @29: Thanks for keeping us informed! The other day my mom asked me, "What's up with all the walls of text by Terez?" and I'm like, "Umm... er, it's what she does." I can't even remember your fan-site affiliation! ::hangs head in shame::

Bzzz™.
Alice Arneson
33. Wetlandernw
AppleBrandy @31 - Actually, there are only 3 Sea Folk Aes Sedai currently: Zemaille, Aiden and Nyein. All three are apparently Brown, and they share rooms on the upper levels of the library. In New Spring, there were four, but two were very old.
Theresa Gray
34. Terez27
LOL, I am a Theorylander. Sorry about the walls o' text. It seems there are mixed feelings on them. But I guess it's easy enough to scroll. :)
Tricia Irish
35. Tektonica
Insectoid@32:

Theoryland for Terez.

Question: Since the Seafolk have been sending channelers to the AS to keep the AS from investigating further, albeit weak ones, why don't the Seafolk AS go back to their country and TEACH the other channelers, the Strong Ones, to do the weaves. Even if they can't make some of them work, they could pass along the weaves?

Terez@34: We LOVE your walls 'o' text!! You are my guru!
Ron Garrison
36. Man-0-Manetheran
My favorite part of this chapter is the reunion with Nynaeve. I've liked her all along beginning with her running after Moiraine to save the kids from those terrible AS. As Wisdom she felt responsible for them. After all that Rand has been through at this point, who does he turn to for help? Nyn. She's the only channeler he can fully trust, and that means a lot. I was so happy and proud of her.

Structurally I like the way RJ set up this emotional reward by having Nyn being driven crazy by those sea people in the paragraphs leading up to it.

Terez - Love your walls o' text. I learn a lot.
Captain Hammer
37. Randalator
That's Technicolor Ta'veren-O-Vision™, Ta’veren Telepathy in Technicolor™ is just a cheap knock-off...
noble thayer
38. joetheman
@33 this reminds me of a crazy theory i had on the Sea Folk, all the SF that are in the AS are browns that are also Libarians, who have near unlimtied access to the 13th depostory, which means the SF may be acting toward the AS with a true knowledge of their history, since as part of the Bargin with the SG the Sea Folk in the tower can go back to the Sea Folk which could mean that they are in contact with the AS sea folk

another thing is that the Sea Folk are probaly desentes of AOL Naval Forces probaly explanes their socetiy
T C
39. Freelancer
Ok, let's see here...

HHG, check.
Pulp Fiction, check.
Top Gun, check.
Steve Miller, check.
And I still probably missed one.


rosetintdworld@5

Agreed, but it balances nicely when Rand names his place in Rhuidean the Roof of the Winespring Brothers.


jadelollipop@10

Actually, from the SASG, there is a point where the place hiding the Choedan Kal access keys is overrun by the forces of the shadow, and unavailable to Team Light. (Yes, SPS49 has this first, I'm confirming it)


MasterAlThor@11

Indeed. Wishing safety for loved ones is honorable. Unless you cannot allow yourself to think of men's actions as honorable. Then it just irritates you, because deep inside you still know it's honorable, but you have to criticize it.


Isilel@15

Nynaeve is being just a tiny bit cowardly here. She isn't so passionate about helping Rand because she loves his plan, she barely knows he has a plan. She just wants out of her self-inflicted torture of teaching the Seafolk. No, your monitor is working fine. Yes, this is me agreeing with you. Could someone help Isilel back up, please?

Now, back to our normally scheduled behavior. The Seafolk live hard lives, folk who must depend on everyone around them to survive the open ocean have to accept a hard discipline, have to recognize the absolute authority of the chain of command. So I give them a bit of slack in being used to having their own way of things. Besides, every group has contempt for every other group, it is only where the Seafolk have the upper hand from a Bargain that they are able to take advantage of the opposite party this way. I would suggest that they earned this bargaining skill through centuries of being mistreated and taken advantage of by the shorebound in every port they visited. Never underestimate the background details of Jordan's purposes.


twicemarked@28

And, see above. We agree in concept, but there is no way the Seafolk are going to "learn they are not on a boat", when they hold the upper hand in the Bargain. That's Elayne and Nynaeve's fault.


Terez27@30

It also conflicts with the Strike at Shayol Ghul. Oh, and in response to 34 while I have you, keep it coming. The ones who care, care to know as much as possible.


AppleBrandy@31

Zing! My thoughts exactly. The most powerful single union in the nation, and the "go-to" rhetoric whenever a politician wants more money.


Tektonica@35

You mean Wetlandernw and I are officially retired? It was about time...


Oh, and Leigh, sometimes it's the verbose ones. ;-{)>
Alice Arneson
40. Wetlandernw
Freelancer - Hi there!! ::waves:: Agreed on all points - along with a few LOLs and/or high5s:

Then it just irritates you because...

Could someone help Isilel back up, please?

Never underestimate the background details...

The ones who care, care to know as much as possible.

The most powerful single union in the nation...

It was about time...
Alice Arneson
41. Wetlandernw
And, you know, that really didn't contribute a single thing to the discussion, did it? Neither does this.
Tricia Irish
42. Tektonica
Freelancer@39:

I didn't say she was my only guru. ;-))
john massey
43. subwoofer
?

Must be Freaky Friday-

This has nothing to do with the blog either. I heard it back in the day and as Wind has recently lost a family member, I thought I'd share. It is sad, but from a dog perspective, true sometimes, unless, like me, you are part dog yourself.



Woof™.
Julian Augustus
44. Alisonwonderland
Freelancer @39:
Ok, let's see here...

HHG, check.
Pulp Fiction, check.
Top Gun, check.
Steve Miller, check.
And I still probably missed one.

Yes, Simon & Garfunkel.
craig thrift
46. gagecreedlives
Any gamblers out there that would like to give me the odds on that Talaan has sussed out the aes sedai ranking system and that’s part of the reason she wants to go to the White Tower.
IIRC a windfinder will find herself back being a deckhand if her Wavemistress retires. Would be very tempting to join an organisation that has a more stable pecking order (which she would be near the top) then the constant ups and downs. Also would take odds on Talaan being a darkfriend

Isilel@15

Don’t forget the captain of the cultural u-turn team in Aram.

Tektonica@16

I think in part the tension between Rand and Lan is the former teacher meeting up with his protégé. Bet ya given the right opportunity both of them would love to have another bout of practicing swords together.
Birgit
47. birgit
another thing is that the Sea Folk are probaly desentes of AOL Naval Forces probaly explanes their socetiy

The World of WoT says that they knew nothing of ships when they fled the Breaking by leaving the land.
Maiane Bakroeva
48. Isilel
Freelancer @39:

Are we habitually at odds then? I confess, that I didn't notice this. I guess, that I am "living in perpetual fog", eh? ;).

Gagecreedlives @46:

Don’t forget the captain of the cultural u-turn team in Aram.

I sincerely hope that Alivia's U-turn is different and will lead to something good!

BTW, folks, I have been messing with English-Latin online translators yesterday and one of the words I got for "protector" was... altor. How cool is that?
Dorothy Johnston
50. CloudMist
To Subwoofer, re #43:

Awwh! Cute puppies! Just how do you insert pics into these messages?
T C
51. Freelancer
Tektonica,

Aww, a warm & fuzzy for a Saturday morning. How nice of you.


Birgit,

The Seafolk have had 30 centuries to develop the seafarer's forms of discipline. Anthropologically speaking, it would develop very similarly no matter when, where, or under what circumstances it was begun. You have to behave certain ways to survive at sea.


Isilel,

Nah, in truth we agree about quite a number of things in-story. I guess I thought I was being clever, and clearly failed.


Alisonwonderland,

I hunted all over the post for a Simon & Garfunkel reference, because there's no way I would have missed one. Then I realized how that has happened in the past. I entered the post via a "Latest Comments" link, which prevents you seeing Leigh's tranfer link. Aaand, that's Billy Joel, not Simon & Garfunkel. You might have been thinking of
"Time it was, and what a time it was, it was
A time for innocence, a time for confidences..."
Theresa Gray
52. Terez27
Another thought on the post - 'reader-years' only count for those who follow the release of the books, fortunately. After the series is complete, it's a whole different ballgame. I have argued before that the reason why books 7-10 were so unappreciated is because people had to wait so long for them (especially TPOD seems to have caused some screams since Mat wasn't in it). But I have noticed that RJ said multiple times on the LOC book tour that LOC almost killed him. I think he was serious.
Jonathan Levy
53. JonathanLevy
subwoofer@43

Which one is Sub and which is Woofer? :)
j p
54. sps49
Terez27 @52-

Books 7-10, with 6 displaying the first symptoms and 11 only an improvement by contrast, simply use too many pages for the amount of plot advancement taking place. Not everyone has waited for those books to be published, and they remain less popular after rereading. Even this thread contains several reasons for the unsatisfying writing of the later books (bar TGS).

I am sure you do not intend it so, but your proffered reason sounds condescending to me. I have my own, perfectly valid reasons for being bored for most of those books, and the time taken to produce them is not part of it. I am very glad that my perseverance is being rewarded in these final books.

For me, TPoD wasn't just lacking Mat, it left his cliffhanger ending go an entire long book and into the second before being resolved.
diane heath
55. jadelollipop
I have always gotten TPOD,WH,COT, and KOD mixed up as to which plot line was in which book. I now realize it is because they repeat the same plot lines and so I get confused as to which segment of said plot is in which book. I love the Mat/Tuon segments. Re-reading the series makes the Faile captured/Faile must be rescued more tolerable. I still hate the AS heading to Tar Valon and Andorian Succession plots.
TGS at least resolved one of those so I am a happy camper :)
Gaidal
56. potato92
@ Freelancer @ 39

Okay, I get what you're saying about the sea folk only being so awful because of how their culture was forced to evolve yada yada yada . . . I even agree with it. That doesn't make reading about them any less painful!

And I very much disagree with your statement about Nyn being "cowardly" for wanting to drop the sea folk tutoring to go help Rand. That's not cowardly, that's just natural! You'd have to be crazy to want to stick around for that sort of treatment when you could be off doing something more useful for Rand. You know, the-guy-who-could-really-use-some-help-right-now.

Then again, I may just be being biased because I
Gaidal
57. potato92
Dang . . . it dropped the rest of my comment.

I was just saying that I may just be biased because I
Gaidal
58. potato92
WHY DOES IT KEEP CUTTING ME OFF?!?!? ALL I WANTED TO SAY WAS THAT I LOVE NYNAEVE AND THAT I PEED MYSELF A LITTLE WHEN LEIGH CALLED LAN "MR. KINKY"!!! THAT'S ALL!!!

Ahem . . . sorry for the all caps fest. I'm sure it was like reading the fifth Harry Potter book (you know, the one where Harry was really angsty like all the time?) all over again. I just get a little annoyed at my computer for showing me a perfectly good preview then dropping the last parts of the sentence for no good reason. So there.
Thomas Keith
59. insectoid
Terez @34: Theoryland, okay. Don't misinterpret me—I don't mind the walls-o-text at all. Keep 'em coming! :)

Potato92 @56-58: LOL!! If you use a text editor (like many of us do) to type out your comment, and then copy and paste it into the comment box, it should work fine. However, if you're already doing that... well, Tor.com can get a little strange sometimes. ;)

EDIT: I just got a bizarre "Could not delete folder" error. See what I mean?

Bzzz™.
T C
60. Freelancer
potato92@56/57/58
That's not cowardly, that's just natural! You'd have to be crazy to want to stick around for that sort of treatment when you could be off doing something more useful for Rand.
We must be honest. Nynaeve's normal viewpoint of any decision to action made by Rand is presumptively negative (woolheaded, foolish, etc). She foregoes this usual behavior because she has a separate internal agenda. Running for the hills from the results of a Bargain she is responsible for agreeing to. Her departure would leave the unpleasant aftereffects of her bargaining failure to another channeler. An action appropriately defined as cowardly, QED.
Jonathan Levy
61. JonathanLevy
Freelancer@60

A lot of the unpleasantness Nynaeve is fleeing from is a result of the Sea Folk's unilaterally insisting on their own interpretation of the contract. Nynaeve's Bargain did not include the phrase "...and the teachers will be treated like trash", the Sea Folk added that on their own. So they bear some responsibility.

That said, Nynaeve is running away from an unpleasant task, thereby dumping it in someone else's lap. And she certainly bears more responsibility that the poor person who will replace her.

So I do completely agree with you that she's being cowardly, but I only partially agree that she brought it on herself. The Sea Folk are being grossly unfair.

Of course, Elayne did drag them to Caemlyn with a creative re-interpretation of her own, didn't she? 'Oh no, you can't go back to your ships until we're sure the weather is back to normal'.
Amir Noam
62. Amir
Terez27 @52:
When I read the series TPoD was the last book out. Even so, I felt the quality (and my enjoyment) dropping starting from book 7 (or arguably 6). After waiting for WH to come out, and despite its kick-ass ending, I simply got to the point where I realized I simply didn't care what happens to these characters anymore. (Besides, all the TAN discussions on the rasfwr-j newsgroup were way more interesting than the on-topic stuff :-) )

I still haven't read any of the books after WH (the reviews I've read for CoT were not encouraging!). However, this re-read (and Leigh's writing Talent) has kinda re-kindled my interest. I think I might read the later books when the re-read catches on to them.
Amir Noam
63. Amir
Jonathan Levy @61:
Of course, Elayne did drag them to Caemlyn with a creative re-interpretation of her own, didn't she?
So Elayne is really the one to blame for the whole SF mess (at least on the Caemlyn side; in Cairhien it's Rand's fault). She could have ditched them in a gas station along the way, or something!

And as others have pointed out, the AS could have tried to be creative with the wording of The Bargain to their advantage (such as sending incompetent teachers, arguing on teaching times and style, etc.).
Captain Hammer
64. Randalator
potato92 @58

I'm sure it was like reading the fifth Harry Potter book (you know, the one where Harry was really angsty like all the time?) all over again.

No, it was more like that scene in the movie Never Back Down where Max wanted to invite Lisa over for dinner but the phone was broken so he had to yell really loud. Then it turned out that the phone wasn't broken at all and that instead Lisa had accidentally lit firecrackers in her ears which messed up her hearing and then they had dinner. But that was just what the evil Fabergé egg stealing aliens wanted him to believe...
Tess Laird
65. thewindrose
I am pretty sure while we never get the exact wording of the Bargin made with Nynaeve and Elayne, that the Aes Sedai 'teachers' would be going to the ships, the Wind Finders would not be coming to them. Just like with Rand and the square mile of land - any Sea Folk laws could not be challenged within their square mile. I do hope that Egwene can come up with something else they may want, and in turn lessen the horrible Bargin Nynaeve and Elayne made.

Nynaeve was assuredly looking for a way out. Remember before the actual legitimate escape Rand offered - she had asked Lan to keep her in their room, naked for a year! And while she laughed and blushed at this, she also thought to herself that she wasn't exactally joking.

@43 subwoofer! **sniff sniff** *eyes are leaking* Reminds me of Thor as a pup. Isn't it amazing what those two pups will look like when grown?

tempest™
Joseph Blaidd
66. SteelBlaidd
Something occurred to me relative to the "Bargain." Unless there is something I missed in their send off Elayne and Nynaeve didn't have authority to make a bargain on behalf of the whole Tower.

If it is assumed that any AS is empowered to speak for the whole White Tower under all circumstances, then that is to me a major reason to have the Oaths.
Tess Laird
67. thewindrose
SteelBlaidd - that might be a reason Egwene can alter the Bargain a bit. Since Nynaeve and Elayne made the Bargain as Aes Sedai under the Rebel Amyrlin, maybe there is room to work... If any Aes Sedai makes a "Bargain" and says she has Amyrlin backing, the Tower is not going to publicly rescind said "Bargain" - the sisters who made it should get into hot water though!
(Nynaeve and Elayne were under the Amyrlin's authority for the Ebou Dar trip, while the other sisters that went with them were under the Hall's.)

Oh yeah, and MasterAlThor - remember the Sulin vs Lan match up a few months before??

tempest™
Sydo Zandstra
68. Fiddler
Wetlander@35:

why don't the Seafolk AS go back to their country and TEACH the other channelers, the Strong Ones, to do the weaves.

Because they count themselves the lucky ones, and will not go back to that horrid culture even at gunpoint.

Remember Talaan...


Edit: And because they KNOW how teachers are being treated there ;)
Kev Hamm
69. cavynmaicl
Egwene should make a new law that requires service time under Wise Ones or Windfinders or even Kin before they take a chair in the hall. The she can send Lelaine and Romanda to the Sea Folk. Because that would make me cheer!

(And am I the only one who constanly spoonerisms their names to Romaine and Lelanda? Like they are some crap salad? Anyone? Ok then…)
Alice Arneson
70. Wetlandernw
Fiddler @68 - That was Tektonica, not me. :)

Incidentally, since the Bargain called for 20 teachers, it wouldn't work anyway. As I said above, there are only 3 Sea Folk Aes Sedai. Not nearly enough to fulfill the bargain. And as you say, there's no indication that they have any desire to go back. They seem to keep to themselves, though, so they aren't exactly integrated into the Tower that well, either. ::shrug::
john massey
71. subwoofer
Wasn't quite what I was gunning for- er... above my doggie pics is a link to a blog site recapping a story I heard awhile ago on the radio. Anyways, as I felt it was poignant to woofs passing on, I thought I'd share as it was touching, even to an old coot like me-

ahem

Oh Mr. Charles Adler, how could you do this to me....

A while ago, Charles Adler (AdlerNation) Talk show host, read a heart wrenching story, written from a dogs perspective, and it is as follows:

HOW COULD YOU? A Dog's Story

When I was a puppy, I entertained you with my antics and made you laugh.You called me your child, and despite a number of chewed shoes and a couple of murdered throw pillows, I became your best friend.

Whenever I was "bad,"you'd shake your finger at me and ask "How could you?" - but then you'd relent, and roll me over for a belly rub.

My housebreaking took a little longer than expected, because you were terribly busy, but we worked on that together. I remember those nights of nuzzling you in bed and listening to your confidences and secret dreams, and I believed that life could not be any more perfect. We went for long walks and runs in the park, car rides, stops for ice cream (I only got the cone because "ice cream is bad for dogs," you said), and I took long naps in the sun waiting for you to come home at the end of the day.

Gradually, you began spending more time at work and on your career, and more time searching for a human mate. I waited for you patiently, comforted you through heartbreaks and disappointments, never chided you about bad decisions, and romped with glee at your homecomings, and when you fell in love.

She, now your wife, is not a "dog person" - still I welcomed her into our home, tried to show her affection, and obeyed her. I was happy because you were happy.

Then the human babies came along and I shared your excitement. I was fascinated by their pinkness, how they smelled, and I wanted to mother them, too. Only she and you worried that I might hurt them, and I spent most of my time banished to another room, or to a dog crate. Oh, how I wanted to love them, but I became a "prisoner of love."

As they began to grow, I became their friend. They clung to my fur and pulled themselves up on wobbly legs, poked fingers in my eyes, investigated my ears, and gave me kisses on my nose. I loved everything about them and their touch- because your touch was now so infrequent - and I would have defended them with my life if need be. I would sneak into their beds and listen to their worries and secret dreams, and together we waited for the sound of your car in the driveway.

There had been a time, when others asked you if you had a dog, that you produced a photo of me from your wallet and told them stories about me. These past few years, you just answered "yes" and changed the subject. I had gone from being "your dog" to "just a dog" and you resented every expenditure on my behalf.

Now, you have a new career opportunity in another city, and you and they will be moving to an apartment that does not allow pets. You've made the right decision for your "family," but there was a time when I was your only family.

I was excited about the car ride until we arrived at the animal shelter. It smelled of dogs and cats, of fear, of hopelessness. You filled out the paperwork and said "I know you will find a good home for her." They shrugged and gave you a pained look. They understand the realities facing a middle-aged dog, even one with "papers." You had to pry your son's fingers loose from my collar as he screamed "No, Daddy! Please don't let them take my dog!" And I worried for him, and what lessons you had just taught him about friendship and loyalty, about love and responsibility, and about respect for all life. You gave me a goodbye pat on the head, avoided my eyes, and politely refused to take my collar and leash with you. You have a deadline to meet and now I have one, too.

After you left, the two nice ladies said you probably knew about your upcoming move months ago and made no attempt to find me another good home. They shook their heads and asked "How could you?"

They are as attentive to us here in the shelter as their busy schedules allow. They feed us, of course, but I lost my appetite days ago. At first, whenever anyone passed my pen, I rushed to the front, hoping it was you - that you had changed your mind - that this was all a bad dream... or I hoped it would at least be someone who cared, anyone who might save me. When I realized I could not compete with the frolicking for attention of happy puppies, oblivious to their own fate, I retreated to a far corner and waited.

I heard her footsteps as she came for me at the end of the day, and I padded along the aisle after her to a separate room. A blissfully quiet room. She placed me on the table and rubbed my ears, and told me not to worry. My heart pounded in anticipation of what was to come, but there was also a sense of relief. The prisoner of love had run out of days.

As is my nature, I was more concerned about her. The burden which she bears weighs heavily on her, and I know that, the same way I knew your every mood. She gently placed a tourniquet around my foreleg as a tear ran down her cheek. I licked her hand in the same way I used to comfort you so many years ago. She expertly slid the hypodermic needle into my vein. As I felt the sting and the cool liquid coursing through my body, I lay down sleepily, looked into her kind eyes and murmured "How could you?" Perhaps because she understood my dog speak, she said "I'm so sorry. "She hugged me, and hurriedly explained it was her job to make sure I went to a better place where I wouldn't be ignored or abused or abandoned, or have to fend for myself - a place of love and light so very different from this earthly place.

And with my last bit of energy, I tried to convey to her with a thump of my tail that my "How could you?" was not directed at her. It was you, My Beloved Master, I was thinking of. I will think of you and wait for you forever. May everyone in your life continue to show you so much loyalty.

Adler on Line. now heard on 11 stations acrossCORUS..www.charlesadler.com

=
There, there now, take a bunch of deep breath's, dry your eyes, it will be alright... I promise...


====================================================


Woof™.
Tess Laird
72. thewindrose
sub, I knew what you were saying, at least. Enough with that story though, my eyes are red rimmed enough, and no, not from drinking too much.

I was over on the predictions thread, and I am still laughing at that picture. What is up with the long handled sword Mat is using. Ohhh, that is the ashandarei. :)

tempest™
diane heath
73. jadelollipop
There, there now, take a bunch of deep breath's, dry your eyes, it will be alright... I promise...


I certainly hope so. I may be teary eyed the rest of the night.
Ron Garrison
74. Man-0-Manetheran
The Bargain
The Mistress of the Ships is head of the Sea Folk (or is there someone higher?) Whatever. As the supreme leader, she could probably change any agreement that she was never a part of. Why can't Egwene do the same? "I'll honor the teaching, but to do it properly, all those we teach must be Novices of the Tower." Heh. Heh.
john massey
75. subwoofer
@Wind- the loyalty and faith of our animals has no bounds. In the end, they will be waiting there for us on the other side. At the end of the day, that is the point to take away from this. Yur pup will be there for you. As I have said, all dogs do go to heaven. I firmly believe this.

... er, with the exception of Cujo. That pooch just don't belong.


Woof™.
diane heath
76. jadelollipop
I had few comments to make in the previous thread re: the lowering of awesomeness for Nynaeve (no longer strongest. No longer best at Healing etc) but I am reading KOD and apparently I missed or forgot an entire chapter (#23 Romanda POV) which "kills the goat" IMO. Tiana, the Rebel Mistress of Novices tells Romanda that Sharina and some of the older women (who had been Wise Women in their villages (sigh) were not only good at Nynaeve's New Healing but Most of the older women only have to see a weave once to have it down.
I guess it is enough that the "New Healing" is creditted (sp) to her...Grrrr.
This one upsets me because seeing a weave only once and knowing it is one reason so many feel that Rand will survive death via yanked out of TAR.
craig thrift
77. gagecreedlives
Sub@75

Mate dont worry about Cujo I will look after him. Seems appropriate for some reason....
Jonathan Levy
78. JonathanLevy
jadelolipop@76

Regarding the theory that Rand will be yanked out of T'A'R: I always saw Birgitte's being torn out of T'A'R as a one-time thing, not any sort of foreshadowing. I'm not sure why people think it foreshadows anything. Does a woman warder foreshadow more women warders? Does Elayne making an A'dam foreshadow her making more A'dams?

Also, there are "precepts, as strong as Law." Precepts set by the Wheel, or by the creator, or some such. "Nothing but ill has ever come from breaking them". It seems a bit strange to me that the wheel's plan for containing the dark one and moving to the fourth age requires breaking its own precepts. Especially if that happens every time we get to the end of the third age. You'd think the Heroes would have noticed by now.

Anyway, I think it's a very imaginative theory - but just a bit too imaginative. I think we'll wind up settling for just a regular resurrection, or maybe the Moridin/Rand body-switching theory.

Amir@63

So Elayne is really the one to blame for the whole SF mess (at least on the Caemlyn side; in Cairhien it's Rand's fault).

I think Mat's Taveren-bargaining display was enough to make the Sea Folk impossible to deal with. Of course, ditching them would have meant they were impossible to deal with, but elsewhere. Sigh.

And as others have pointed out, the AS could have tried to be creative with the wording of The Bargain to their advantage (such as sending incompetent teachers, arguing on teaching times and style, etc.).

My suggestion was that they should send non-channelers through the Acceptatron, make them Aes Sedai by the Amyrlin's decree (now that there's a precedent), and ship them off to the Sea Folk. Preferably men.

subwoofer@75
I'm pretty sure the loyalty and faith of my cat has some very definite bounds. :) But your post was touching.

Fiddler@68
You're right about the teachers, but remember that Talaan is an exception, because of her powerful clan.
Gaidal
79. Granten
It's good to actually see our heroes talking to one another (something they seem to be allergic to doing for most of the series) but I have to ask if there were a somewhat more intelligent way of getting Rand there.
Amir Noam
80. Amir
Jonathan Levy @78:
I'm pretty sure the loyalty and faith of my cat has some very definite bounds. :)
And his intelligence? :-)
Captain Hammer
81. Randalator
jadelollipop @76

Tiana, the Rebel Mistress of Novices tells Romanda that Sharina and some of the older women (who had been Wise Women in their villages (sigh) were not only good at Nynaeve's New Healing but Most of the older women only have to see a weave once to have it down.
I guess it is enough that the "New Healing" is creditted (sp) to her...Grrrr.


I don't have much of a problem with that for several reasons.

strength: It was established fairly early on that Nynaeve was the same strength as Moghedien and that Moghedien was nowhere near as strong as e.g. Lanfear. So someone stronger than Nynaeve was bound to pop up sooner or later.

Healing: Yep, Nynaeve pioneered a new way of Healing, traditional medicinal knowledge applied unconsciously to the One Power method. And she will be remembered for doing that, just like Louis Pasteur or Alexander Fleming in our world.

But, again, it was established that in the AoL there was a form of Healing that took all energy from the True Source and not from the patient which is still the case for the Nynaeve way. Also Nynaeve is, after all, still "just" an instinctive Healer and pioneers often lose ground to others once their field of excellence becomes common knowledge, especially if they are self-taught and have no academic education.

That means, for all the revolutionizing her approach did in the art of Healing, improvements were to be expected once Healers with more experience in the science of One Power Healing applied their knowledge to Nynaeve's approach.

Remember how the Aes Sedai immediately started developing new ideas once they saw Nynaeve Heal Logain. They were all like "What is this I don't even...why did you use X, no one uses X...hm, I can see how X might do Y in a person suffering from Z". Nynaeve didn't (and still doesn't) know enough about what the One Power does inside a patient during Healing to refine her approach. And even with the improvements there is still a long way to go concerning AoL Healing.

So yeah...all to be expected, really...

And as I said in an earlier re-read: Nynaeve is strongly foreshadowed to requisition her awesome back. Healing death and all that. Remember, with all the lack of academic training, she is still more able to think outside the box and develop radically new ideas. That is her real strength in Healing...
diane heath
82. jadelollipop
Jonathan Levy @78. My complaint was more about the further reduction of Nynaeve's uniqueness. Her ability to know a weave once was cited many times in reference to the yanking out of Birgitte. I do think Rand will survive although I don't know how. I don't think it will echo Harry Potter in anyway,unless Harry's Kings Cross meeting with Dumbledore is a TAR equivalent. :) The Body Swap theory reminds me of the James/Remus Switch theory. It was wrong and I think the Rand/Moridin theory is wrong too. Guess the whole thing is a RAFO .
john massey
83. subwoofer
@Jade- yeah, when we hear about Nynaeve being stronger than Elayne, Egwene and even Moiraine, we are given the initial impression that she is someone rare. But Randalator does have a point, someone was bound to come along, we just did not know if it would be for Team Light or the guys with the black hats. In New Spring we have it beaten into us the precedence that strength is in terms of ranking and deference. One thing I have noticed is that not a lot of Aes Sedai are giving Nynaeve any kind of deference. I am looking forward to Nynaeve officially being recognized as Aes Sedai and getting some proper respect.

As for Healing, well, the Aes Sedai did question Nynaeve six ways from Sunday on why/how she did what she did. Although it is not scientific method, there is bound to be some improvements. And things do have to happen at a rapid pace now as the Last Battle approaches.

@GCL- ahh yes, silly of me to forget. Thankfully, Mr. King did not do a crossover novel because yeeeeeee! That would just creep me out. This was back in the day when suspense was suspense. As opposed to the gore-fests of today, which after a point, become formulaic. Always felt GC needed a pet...


Woof™
vo mabulay
84. alreadymad
subwoofer @83
Indeed, from the scene where the Yellows observe Nynaeve's healing en masse, you get the idea that they actually do have some well grounded basic theories on healing. It's just that their primary experience is with only Air and Water, and they are limited only by what the institution teaches them.
Barry T
85. blindillusion
...And also their oft-times annoying desire to never do anything that steps away from Tradition and “the way it has ‘always’ been done".
diane heath
86. jadelollipop
I recall some Yellows complaining/questioning Nynaeve on why she used everything (Earth,Fire,Spirit,Air and Water(. My guess would be because as a wilder on her own she used everything including kitchen sink to get the result she wanted. :)
Egwene's POV in the Tower in KOD mentions that the Healing she is given (up to 3 times a day so far) is the Old Healing which proves that Beonin has not betrayed weaves. (Sisters still asking Leanne about Travelling). Puts Elaida on level of Taim --keeping certain weaves to herself. (Logain accused Rand of that when he first saw Deathgates)
Gaidal
87. alreadymadwithnewhealing
blindillusion @85
You can't really blame them. Unless the weave had been proven to be truly effective, as Nynaeve did in this case, very few are willing to risk the potential harm of a weave gone wrong. They could cause more harm to the patient or (heaven forbid) end up stilling themselves. Though of course carefully controlled experimenting should have been encouraged.
James Jones
88. jamesedjones
54 sps49
I am sure you do not intend it so, but your proffered reason sounds condescending to me.
LOL. Yeah, I have to really concentrate to avoid hearing a holier-than-thou tone whenever reading Terez's posts. Of course, I heard the same tone the first few months of Free's posts, too. I'm sure it'll go away eventually. ;)

Here's hoping for 100 posts before tomorrow...
Barry T
89. blindillusion
AMW –

But that’s just it, isn’t it? Two seconds after seeing Nynaeve use Fire and Earth in her Healing, the Yellows present were already thinking about how “fire used just so” and “earth used here in this ailment” could prove effective. This is the group that knows the most of the human body, and as such, should have realized how these various aspects of the Power could be used to Heal in betters ways than the simple use of Air and Water alone.

It took a catalyst for them to realize they’d only been using 50% of their potential. So, Tradition hobbled them.
Gaidal
90. Bourgeois Nerd
Randalator: Are you sure about Nyn's Healing still using the patients' resources to heal instead of the One Power like in the AoL? I thought Nyn more-or-less rediscovered that ability; it just has to be developed to that level again. Her patients don't seem as weak as those with Old Healing, at least.

BTW, I don't think Nyn is getting short-shrift in the Awesome department, despite others overtaking her in ranking and Healing ability. She gets to help cleanse saidin at the end of this book, there's the Total Awesomeness of the Golden Crane, and I just reread TGS and she has several really, really cool moments, including a Healing one (with a bit of help from Rand). She's also become more mature, an Aes Sedai, but mostly the good parts of being Aes Sedai instead of the annoying crap.

I hope her and Damer Flinn get to get together and have a Healing Powwow.
Theresa Gray
91. Terez27
jadelollipop@76:

This one upsets me because seeing a weave only once and knowing it is one reason so many feel that Rand will survive death via yanked out of TAR.


Others might be able to do it, but none of them were there when Moghedien ripped Birgitte out. The emphasis on Nynaeve's ability is mainly to highlight the fact that she can most likely duplicate what Moghedien did.
Matthew Smith
92. blocksmith
Subwoofer@various

Loved the story...a touch teary eyed, I must admit. You should try to find the Bill Simmons column (on ESPN) that he wrote when his dog passed. I cried, have to admit.

The pictures of the pups (and the full grown German Shepherds...thanks Windrose) are great...the one in the foreground is a spitting image of my dog, Kenna (from Ceanna).
Gaidal
93. Lightspawn
Something minor I've noticed; multiple times in this and the preceding chapters, characters make references to there being five Aes Sedai (including Elayne and Nynaeve). Aren't there six (Elayne, Nynaeve, Merilille, Sareitha, Vandene, Careane)? I'm pretty sure this is before Merilille left to see the borderlanders. Am I missing something?
Karen Jacobs
94. KJacobs
Sub @ 43 & 71: Wow! I'm playing catch-up with the comments after the weekend, and now I'm sitting at my desk snuffling like an idiot. Heartbreaking, and unfortunately so true. Thanks for sharing.
Alice Arneson
95. Wetlandernw
Nothing to do with this thread, but I thought y'all might like to see this. Lannis already scored a Blue Ajah appearance (as Lannis!!) in TofM - anyone else going to jump in?
diane heath
96. jadelollipop
Brandon Sanderson Okay, up bright an early (well, for me) and starting work on the TofM final draft. Need to do 10% of it today at the minimum.


Re: New Healing vs Old Healing
She used the old method of Healing that made Egwene gasp as though doused in an icy pond and left her ravenously eager for breakfast
Apparently these side effects are not present with New Healing
when N heals Rand it is referred as " a chill that ripples through him"
Captain Hammer
97. Randalator
Burgeois Nerd @90

Are you sure about Nyn's Healing still using the patients' resources to heal instead of the One Power like in the AoL? I thought Nyn more-or-less rediscovered that ability; it just has to be developed to that level again. Her patients don't seem as weak as those with Old Healing, at least.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure.

Nynaeve used the bloody bandages to wipe Dailin's stomach, smearing away bright red new blood and black crusts of dried old. There was no wound, no scar, only healthy skin considerably paler than Dailin's face.

With a grimace, Nynaeve took the bloody cloths, stood up, and threw them into the river. "Wash the rest of that off of her," she said, "and put some clothes back on her. She's cold. And be ready to feed her. She will be hungry."
(TDR, ch. 38)

Nynaeve was on her hands and knees, head down and shaking. "Light!" she muttered. "Doing it that way . . . was like peeling off . . . my own skin. Oh, Light!" She peered at Elayne. "How do you feel, girl?" Egwene pulled her hands away.

"Tired," Elayne murmured. "And hungry. Where are we? There were some men with slings . . ."
(TDR, ch. 29)

rested her hand on Elayne's forehead and grunted in satisfaction at finding it cool. "I Healed Dyelin. She will need time to recover her strength fully, though. She lost a great deal of blood.
(WH, ch. 10)

All of Nynaeve's patients experience the hunger associated with Healing and in case of Dyelin who had to regenerate a lot of Blood during the Healing need several days to recover.

Nynaeve's Healing still takes the energy from the patient. It may be more effective in using that energy (patients are "hungry", not "ravenous"; see jadelollipop above) and not have some of the uncomfortable side effects (dito) but it is beyond the shadow of a doubt NOT AoL Healing.
Alice Arneson
98. Wetlandernw
Randalator @97 - I'd delete that last one if I were you. "She will need time to recover her strength fully. She lost a great deal of blood." Nothing about her being hungry, just that she's weak from blood loss. Even Nynaeve hasn't yet figured out how to replace the blood someone lost from a wound.
Tess Laird
99. thewindrose
Another interesting idea about Healing - remember when Moiraine asked Rand to pull power through Callandor, so she wouldn't have to use just his own energies? There might be something there? - that will lead to the actual way AOL Healers operated?? Although that is the only time I can recall someone asking another to do that, so it may be nothing.

tempest™
Tess Laird
100. thewindrose
We do be slacking on the commenting!

Yay!! 1 hunny!! I slipped under sub's radar and nabbed myself 100:)

Wetlandernw - cool news on having a chance to be in the book! I think it is great when authors do this for their fans and also for charities. I liked your response on that other thread, too!

tempest™
Alice Arneson
101. Wetlandernw
thewindrose @100 - Hey, cool! And thanks - I get so irritated when people jump in with stupid, condescending and uninformed garbage like that.

::eyeroll::
Captain Hammer
102. Randalator
Wetlandernw @98

Nothing about her being hungry, just that she's weak from blood loss. Even Nynaeve hasn't yet figured out how to replace the blood someone lost from a wound.

Yes she has. It's called "Healing". Healing essentially accelerates (and increases) the body's natural healing factor.

But she could wash away the worst injuries as if they had never been, or Heal so whoever she Healed appeared to have spent days recovering on her own, or anything in between.
(CoT, Prologue)

But the strength and energy to regenerate that blood came from Dyelin's body and that left her weakened. After all her body did in a second what would usually take months (120 days to replace all red blood cells in a human body, that's longer than most bone fractures take to heal). Nynaeve just explains why Dyelin wasn't back to 100% after a healthy meal and a full night's sleep. Healing severe blood loss takes a greater toll on the patient than a simple cut or a clean fracture...
Gaidal
103. sleepinghour
I'm pretty sure Nynaeve was still using the old Healing back in TDR. Uno also flails around and gasps when she Heals him in either FoH or LoC, which only happened with the old Healing.

The chill Rand comments on in later books is actually from Delving (checking someone's health). Nynaeve herself mentions she hasn't found a better way yet to Delve someone.
Maiane Bakroeva
104. Isilel
IIRC, AoL Healing didn't take energy directly from the OP, but from the Healer. Which is why it wasn't suitable for use on the field of battle and was eventually replaced by the "first aid" Healing that the AS had at the beginning of the series. It takes the energy mostly from the patient, which leaves the Healer comparatively fresh and able to perform many more Healings.

Re: all the people who are able to use a weave after seeing it once or to invent stuff right, left and center a few weeks after they first touch the Source - it really harms the worldbuilding, IMHO, because it makes the AoLers look like complete fools.
I mean, in AoL future AS were selected at 10 and were taught for decades!
And they also naively thought that there was a "science" to OP, when in the series all people who invent weaves have no clue about theory of channeling and need none, etc.

Another problem is that if all this can be rediscovered intuitively/by chance, then how come that neither WOs nor WFs, not to mention pre-collar Seanchan were able to rediscover something as highly desirable as Healing? I mean, it is a pretty common Talent, right? And all these channelers are pretty much guaranteed to come into situations where they'd really, really want to Heal somebody often enough.
Ditto Traveling, though to a somewhat lesser degree, perhaps.

Re: SF AS, seems like they cut the ties with their people completely. Maybe they hold their "sacrifice" against their people?

It is still quite baffling that in 3K years they didn't manage to pass on something as extremely valuable as Healing and linking back to SF.

Certainly seems like at least some clans should have schemed to get AS knowledge before now. And also, what, with lack of oversight over AS, so that decades may pass before one is declared dead, if a SF sister chose to go back to being a Windfinder, who would know? The sacrifice never needed to be irrevocable...

Speaking of yanking people out of T'AR, I kind of hope that something like that has very sharply defined limits, because otherwise any Hero of the Horn could essentially live forever. Much as I like Brigitte, I hope that eventually even the warder bond won't be enough to keep her on this plane of existence out of season.

Ditto, while Rand is my second-favorite character, and it is heavily foreshadowed that he will die and return back to life, I hope that the story doesn't cheat and let him survive the new Sealing. The Dragon's sacrifice, the whole of it, should be true and not a subterfuge.
Roger Powell
105. forkroot
Isilel@104
You make some pretty good points. I guess for the sake of the story, we have to accept that the "Pattern" has now dictated the rise of channelers with AOL-type strength and that furthermore these "discoveries" (or rediscoveries) come more easily to these new uber-channelers.

Furthermore we need to accept that Randland was quite static and set in all of its ways prior to the end of the Age approaching. So set, that it would never occur to weak SF tower Browns to take information (like Linking) back to their people.

So the pattern kept everything static until it was time for everything to change in a hurry!

Actually, as a cosmology/story-framework, the idea of the Pattern and ta'veren make willing suspension of disbelief a lot easier than for some other fantasy worlds.












Take it from me as I work through Drizzt's adventures - it's hard to believe that Drizzt and all of his buddies never snuff if (permanently). At this rate, I may have to break down and read GRRM!
Justin Levitt
106. TyranAmiros
Isilel@104

My understanding is that the problem with the Healing the Aes Sedai used is because it only uses 3 of the 5 powers, so the Fire and Earth needed to make the Healing truly work have to come from the patient him or herself. Nynaeve's true Healing draws on all five powers, so the body doesn't have to draw on itself as much. I don't think either Healing draws from the channeler more than a normal weave would.

About channeling in the Age of Legends, I kind of see it as similar to our own age. I'm in academia, and it's made very clear that experimentation only happens within limited bounds. Further, methods of training serve to limit how you think about a topic. This would have been highly magnified in the tightly-controlled atmosphere of the AoL

I would bet that early Aes Sedai in the AoL (or soon after channeling was discovered) probably knew a way to heal severing, since it's probably related to the weave for severing. However, since severing itself was a rarely-used weave (they could use the Oath Rods for punishing channelers more effectively), it wasn't used often enough to warrant inclusion in the standard training. It's not precisely a weave you'd want to have floating around anyway. Over time, it was forgotten.

Another example is Semirhage. She could heal some proportion of cases normal methods couldn't because of her experimentation and skill. However, it wasn't enough to justify her IRB (sorry, bad academic joke)--that is, she couldn't demonstrate that the pain was worth the additional lives saved.

My guess is that Healing in general is a very dangerous weave if you don't know what you're doing. Look at Nynaeve's fear of making Rand's eyes worse in KoD. For all its flaws, the White Tower is probably doing the best job of preserving the knowledge base of the Age of Legends. Through its apprenticeship structure, it is probably best able to preserve knowledge of Healing by making sure that up-and-coming Healers found their way to someone who could teach them.

Given the nature of Sea Folk, Aiel, and pre-Arturian Seanchan training, it is likely that such identification is less likely to occur, though my hunch is that many Wise Women use a very rudimentary form of Healing in combination with herbs. In Seanchan, it's important to consider that the Aes Sedai fought for control amongst each other, making it again less likely that a potential healer would find her way to the right teacher.
Rob Munnelly
107. RobMRobM
Fork - you've never read GRRM? Arrrggh. Get yourself to a bookstore and read them ASAP, especially since they are now (meaning, literally, right now in Northern Ireland and shortly, in Malta) filming Game of Thrones as an HBO mini-series with top flight cast and production values.

If the concern is that the series might be too "gritty" for you (Freelancer's term), then go to the library and start reading the three Dunk and Egg novellas (one in Silverberg's Legends I compilation; one in Silverberg's Legends II compilation; and one in Martin/Dozois Warriors compilation). The three are brilliant and enjoyable and not so gritty, and are set 80 or so years before the principal series. Once you're comfortable with his writing style and characters, you'll likely feel compelled to dive into the main series, gritty or not. I have a WoT-like fixation on the series and am dyyyyyiiiiing for the next book to come out.

Rob
Roger Powell
108. forkroot
RobM^2@107
Well after getting hooked on WoT, I swore that I wouldn't start another series until all the books were available. As I understand it, the Fire and Ice series isn't done, right?

I will admit this - years ago, in Omni magazine, there was a brilliant short story "Sandkings" that I was very impressed with. That was my introduction to GRRM, so I have no doubts that he has serious writing chops.

I will also admit that I'm leaning toward breaking my vow anyway with Brandon's Way of Kings series. I figure that a lot of you will be reading it and there will be leak-over onto the WoT reread discussions :-)
Alice Arneson
109. Wetlandernw
RobMRobM - Actually, "gritty" was used by many to describe GRRM. Freelancer's term was "coarse."
Gaidal
110. EarthandIce
Just checked in, have not read all comments from the weekend.

Oh, yeah, GRR Martin. I had picked up one of his books oh, about 7 years ago and did not connect with it for some reason, then my sister really recommended the books. At the time I was working for a Walden's in the local mall, and needless to say I am one of the ones waiting for him to finish the next book. His problem seems to be the same one Jordan had; his books are so long he breaks them up. The last one out was split, with the remainder supposed to have been finished except for a bit of polishing. Well, that has been, oh four years or so. Now the current one is being split the last I read on his blog.

Drizzt!!! Great books and really not that, um, gritty. I have the pleasure of owning a poster that was used to promote Exile. Drizzt is shown in the cave, oh, rats, spoiler!







fighting his gohlum father.
john massey
111. subwoofer
@Wind- well, yas didn't sneak nuthin'. My motherboard went up in smoke today so I had an IT dude camped in my office trying to recover my hard drive on my new computer. Good times.

Healing- I think that this is an area of balance. The Channelers, male and female are discovering all new ways to kill. Look at the way the Asha'men blew the Shaido up. Look at the way Rand & Co were wailing on the Seanchan and Shaido. The revolutionary Healing had to come about to keep things even. Mankind must let its ability to heal and create keep pace with its ability to destroy, even in the WoT.

Woof™.
Thomas Keith
112. insectoid
JLevy @78:
I'm pretty sure the loyalty and faith of my cat has some very definite bounds.
I can sure agree with that sentiment... our three are definitely troublemakers sometimes!

Fork @105: Then I take it you haven't gotten to The Ghost King yet... ::flees to bunker:: As for GRRM... I'm only 3/4 of the way through A Clash of Kings (finally done with DBZ; maybe I can finish reading it now!), and I'm rather surprised how many characters are left, considering all I've heard about the series from my mom.

WetNW @109: I agree with both terms, and would definitely apply them to at least 2 of the main characters (so far).

Sub @111:
My motherboard went up in smoke today...
Urgh, that's a bad day allright! I hate it when that happens. (Of course, being a DIY-er I have the tools and the talent to replace parts that go bad. ;))

EDIT: Another funky unexplained error after posting:
SOME_ERROR_CODE - Delete failed: '5ac25d9d8b0ea195089d94817b3ddbe8.php'

EDIT EDIT: Oh, and hex 0x70. >=}

Bzzz™.
Theresa Gray
113. Terez27
@insectoid - are you now in the 'seen every episode and all the movies' club? I have been in that club since DBZ first aired in the US; I even started buying up Japanese eps with subtitles toward the end there.
j p
114. sps49
Healing- I had the impression that one of the "new" breakthroughs was using Fire, which no AS does anymore. That may have been Asha'method rather than Nynaeve; I gots to go look that up....

Insectoid @ 112- you can fix bad motherboards? I have an HP laptop for you somewhere here.
Alice Arneson
115. Wetlandernw
On a completely unrelated subject, I was just noticing in TEotW that there are, apparently, a fair number of Warders in the Borderlands and patrolling the edges of the Blight. Agelmar, talking about Sheinaran preparations to head for Tarwin's Gap and the lack of support from the other nations, says "None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here..." That doesn't give us any number, but it does indicate that there are more than one or two. I personally would read it to indicate probably 50 (give or take about 30) Warders spread out across the Borderlands. ::shrug::

After several hours of research I can find no evidence that Warders are ever anything but those warriors bound to Aes Sedai. If there are some number of Warders spread throughout the Borderlands, there must also be a fair few Aes Sedai there. Maybe the Green Ajah does go to guard the BlightBorder. As far as I know, it doesn't actually say so, but it would seem logical that they would be Green sisters whose Warders were out there with the scouts. Maybe there's a mix within the Ajah - 1) those who stay in the Tower to look out for the interests of the Ajah, recruit new sisters, do research, whatever... 2) those who want to do real battle now and go to the Border to do so and 3) those who go out and about in the world at large, pursuing various individual studies or agenda relating to fighting the Shadow and preparing for the Last Battle. We haven't really seen any of the 2s in action, but who knows - maybe they'll show up in one of the next two books. The only 3s I can really think of would be Cadsuane, Vandene and maybe Alanna; we just don't know enough about the extraneous activities of the other Greens we see out and about, to know whether they're 1s or 3s.

Anyway, something to think about in the morning while y'all are twitching for the new post.
Thomas Keith
116. insectoid
Terez @113: No, haven't seen the movies. But I have seen all 291 episodes. I had seen well over half of them on the air, and decided it was worth buying all 9 seasons (not all at once) just so I could watch them again. :)

SPS @114: I said replace, not fix. ;) And the only spare laptop mobo I have is for my old Toshiba...

WetNW @115: Makes sense—there ought to be some Greens up there; they can't all be lollygagging around the Tower.

(Lollygag is a funny word.)

EDIT: "SOME_ERROR_CODE - Delete failed: '2970c16a0061a14201e3601d0c80c544.php'" Again. I get the feeling Tor.com doesn't like me. Or perhaps it doesn't like Chrome anymore—that's the third error in as many comments. :(

Bzzz™.
Theresa Gray
117. Terez27
@insectoid - I didn't buy them all at once either. Spent over $1000 before I was done. Most of the movies suck, but you must watch 12 and 13 if you haven't already. Those two rock. I recommend the original Japanese with subtitles for those.

@wetlander - I always figured that was a TEOTWism, along with the Two Rivers boys thinking that guarding the Blight was what Warders did. But the idea of Warders having excessive experience in the Blight seems to have dwindled as the series went on. Another strange thing is that Lan says Elyas taught him much about the sword. Maybe that's true, but I got the idea Lan was rather a badass before he met Moiraine, and couldn't possibly have needed much help in that area. But Elyas teaching him about the Blight? That's GOT to be a TEOTWism.
Jonathan Levy
119. JonathanLevy
Amir@80
And his intelligence? :-)

He has his good friend the Concrete Cat to supply that deficiency.
Jonathan Levy
120. JonathanLevy
jadelollipop@82
Her ability to know a weave once was cited many times in reference to the yanking out of Birgitte.

Could you please provide some quotes & references? I don't remember reading a single such reference, and if I missed something that big I'd really like to remedy it.


Isilel@104
Re: all the people who are able to use a weave after seeing it once or to invent stuff right, left and center a few weeks after they first touch the Source - it really harms the worldbuilding


I was about to type a reply for this, but I see forkroot@105 took the words right out of my mouth.

I'll just add how Nynaeve spontaneously rediscovers balefire against the 3 Myrdraal in TDR, and so does Rand when he tries to distract Lanfear from killing Asmodean after Rand has beaten him.

TyranAmiros@106
I would bet that early Aes Sedai in the AoL (or soon after channeling was discovered) probably knew a way to heal severing

We have a PoV from Moridin in which he is shocked that these primitives have discovered a way to heal severing. I think it's far-fetched to suppose that something like healing severing could be forgotten in an Age dedicated to discovery and building (unlike the 3rd age, whose main motif is decay). If there's one piece of knowledge a guild of channelers will preserve, it's how to heal severing, in the same way that a guild of pianists would never forget how to regenerate an amputated finger, or a guild of soccer players how to heal a broken leg. The greatest fear of a channeler is being severed - you can depend on it that if 3 channelers sit down for dinner and only one of them knows how to heal stilling, by the end of the meal they all will.

(Semirhage was condemned because she) couldn't demonstrate that the pain was worth the additional lives saved

Semirhage was condemned because her judges were horrified to discover she enjoyed inflicting pain and did it often and deliberately. She was condemned as a Moral Obscenity. It is only in her own twisted mind that she attempts to justify her sadism by balancing it against the benefit she gave.

In other words, she was not condemned because she COULDN'T demonstrate that the healing justified the pain, but because she ATTEMPTED to demonstrate it - because she thought that could possibly be a morally acceptable argument.

Terez27@117
TEOTWism? Love that, hadn't seen it before :)
Thomas Keith
121. insectoid
Terez @117: TEOTWism? That's a new one. :) Anyway, off-topic: since you seem to be in the loop, is DBGT any good? I missed its airing on CN; read a little about it online, and was wondering.

JLevy @119: Concrete... Buh?

EDIT: Left Torie a shout about these weird errors.

Bzzz™.
Amir Noam
122. Amir
Jonathan Levy @120:
If there's one piece of knowledge a guild of channelers will preserve, it's how to heal severing, in the same way that a guild of pianists would never forget how to regenerate an amputated finger, or a guild of soccer players how to heal a broken leg.
You are right, but is healing someone who was severed the same as healing someone who was burned out? If this healing only works when the person was severed (as the ultimate punishment) and is not applicable for burning out (accidents) I can see how this might not be common knowledge.
(Still, based on Moridin's comments I'm inclined to believe that healing severing was indeed unknown in the AoL).

Terez27@117
TEOTWism? Love that, hadn't seen it before :)
:-)
We use this all all the time on the Malazan re-read blog. There it is called GOTMism, after the first Malazan book - Gardens of the Moon. Used to refer to inconsistencies between the first book and the erst of the series

insectoid@121:
Yes, his Concrete Cat might arguably be more intelligent :-)
(JLevy: no offense, man. :-) send him my regards)
Gaidal
123. Stromgard
I was under the impression that Semiraghe added pain to her healing of people AND LIED TO EVERYONE when she told them it was a necessary part of the process.

In other words, she added the pain for no other reason than personal pleasure.

Or do i remember wrongly?
diane heath
124. jadelollipop
JL@120 I simply meant that it was known that Nynaeve could learn a weave after seeing it one time and in the postings about theories re: Rand being returned from the dead via TAR ala Birgitte it was often repeated. You could probably find such statements at Dragonmount or within this re-read. Within the story line itself I could only cite the yanking out of Birgitte. For some reason I think that Siuan was the first to comment about Nynaeve's ability (in TGH) on the way to Tar Valon IIRC. I will try to find that later :)
john massey
125. subwoofer
@Insectoid- Good stuff:) but that is what I hire folks to do so I won't go on a rage and "Hulk Smash" the durned computer. I do not have the patience to do that. Inevitably the "why won't this damn thing work?!" question crops up.

I'm a cave-woofer.

DBGT? It was okay, just kiddiefied. Trunks was the grown up in that one. And no Namics(sp?)-specifically, Pic was absent. Anyways, if you wanna score the OG stuff with subtitles, it is much better with all bit more graphic- not made for CN- schtuff.

Woof™.
R B
126. MasterAlThor
Wind,

Sorry it took so long to respond to you but I have had a busy weekend.

Why,oh gods, why did you have to remind me?

(breath)

Ok, I'm not gonna rant about that. Not going to...

Free,

Hey you did alot better that I did. I only caught the Steve Miller reference.

That is really bad cause Top Gun is one of my favorite movies.

Dragon™
Thomas Keith
127. insectoid
Sub @125: No Nameks, huh? I can live with that.

And sometimes I do feel like going "Insect Smash" on the computer. ;)

*twitch*

EDIT: Huh... no error in IE8. 0x7F=}

Bzzz™.
Gaidal
128. alreadymadwithgreens
sps49 @114
Using Fire was pioneered by Nynaeve. She's the one pointed out for using all five powers.

Wetlandernw @115
Aisling Noon was a 2. She was Aes Sedai advisor to one of the Borderland rulers. Until she returned and got captured by the Black Tower that is. I wonder if she has Warders.
Leigh Butler
129. leighdb
Hi guys,

With regret, there will be no post today, owing to a completely unexpected (and unpleasant) dental emergency I had yesterday.

The next post will go up Friday.
Jonathan Levy
130. JonathanLevy
insectoid@121

I have a small concrete statue of a cat in my garden. Whenever my cat's intelligence is castigated, he's compared to the concrete one. Though my cat did figure out how to open doors. The Concrete Cat hasn't done that yet, thank the Light.

Amir@122

We know that there is an important difference between severing and burning out - Siuan and Leane can use the A'dam on Moghedian, but Setalle Anan (a burned-out Aes Sedai) can't use it on Joline (WH). It's possible that the healing process is not identical. It's also possible that it is identical, or very similar.

Also, stilling can happen by accident - for example, if you're trying to shield someone who is channeling, and make the edge of your shield too sharp (this can be deduced from Nynaeve's battle with Moghedien, where Nynaeve is trying to still her but the edge gets dulled and just shields her). Also, at Dumai's wells, Rand stills a bunch of Aes Sedai without actually intending to - though admittedly his weave he was using wasn't very delicate.

Besides, it might be nice to undo a judicial stilling - mistakes do happen.

So I still think a weave to heal stilling is very likely to be preserved - even given that a weave to heal burning out is even more likely.


Stromgard@123

She was tried for two things: one is causing unnecessary pain while healing, the other is deliberately torturing horrible people just for the fun of it (LoC:6)
Had anyone she pulled back from death’s grasp ever said they would rather have died than suffer the little extra she exacted? And the others? There were always those who deserved to suffer. What matter that she enjoyed giving them their deserts?



jadelollipop@124
Ah, ok. But still - just because Nynaeve, when sitting in the tower being taught Novice's weaves under her nose learns them the first time, doesn't mean she's going to learn a super-complicated-unheard-of-weave performed by Moghedien on Birgitte, who is a few dozen meters away, after being tortured by Moghedien.

It's like expecting a music student who can repeat simple tunes to reproduce a six-second sound-bite of a symphony after hearing it once.

Also, Talent plays a role. Elayne is pretty quick at picking up weaves, but when she watches Nynaeve do her healing, she can barely follow what is going on. We see this when Nynaeve heals the wounded Aiel in TDR, and when she tries to heal Birgitte.

One last thought - for all they know, Birgitte has been torn from the wheel, never to be reborn. Inflicting that on Rand is not a simple decision. Besides - what's going to happen the next time the third age comes around?
Ilya Surdin
131. Surdin
leigh @129:
:( Feel well, Leigh. Unfortunately, the dental emergency field is one I'm very familiar with.
I'll be less addicted to the reread now, since I'm starting my own pre-ToM reread. But please be back on Friday. :)
Lucas Vollmer
132. aspeo
Stromgard@123
I was under the impression that Semiraghe added pain to her healing of people AND LIED TO EVERYONE when she told them it was a necessary part of the process.

In other words, she added the pain for no other reason than personal pleasure.

Or do i remember wrongly?


That's the way I always read it too. I seem to remember that this was the reason she was under the threat of being bound by a binder or being severed, and thus fled to swear to the Dark One.

Actually I just looked it up on encyclopedia WOT and it confirmed that I actually remembered correctly lol. It also says that she tortured an entire city to death just to prove that she could, and for her own pleasure.

So yeah, even before going to the shadow she was the kind of person who inflicted pain for her own pleasure.

Leigh@129
I hope you will be feeling better soon! We will be awaiting your re-read post on Friday!
Thomas Keith
133. insectoid
Leigh @129: Arrrrggghh... Hope you're feeling better soon!

JLevy @130: That's pretty funny! Concrete cats... what won't they think of next? ;)

Bzzz™.
Rob Munnelly
134. RobMRobM
jlevy - "One last thought - for all they know, Birgitte has been torn from the wheel, never to be reborn. Inflicting that on Rand is not a simple decision. Besides - what's going to happen the next time the third age comes around?"

Exactly. Both run grave risk of not being reborn unless they do such heroic stuff they are reappointed as Heroes by however that process transpires.

id - "Ah, ok. But still - just because Nynaeve, when sitting in the tower being taught Novice's weaves under her nose learns them the first time, doesn't mean she's going to learn a super-complicated-unheard-of-weave performed by Moghedien on Birgitte, who is a few dozen meters away, after being tortured by Moghedien.

It's like expecting a music student who can repeat simple tunes to reproduce a six-second sound-bite of a symphony after hearing it once."

No. I believe the text is crystal clear that Nyn can reproduce any weave she sees, no matter how difficult. I'd bet my kids that there won't be a situation where Nyn would love to pull Rand out of TAR and can't because she doesn't remember Moggy's ripping out weave. (Since my kids have been crabby lately, this is not as unattractive as prospect as might be seen at other times. Just kidding, of course.)

Leigh - sorry. We'll strive to keep the twitching to a dull roar.

Rob
Gaidal
135. Branwhin
Boo on dental emergencies! Hugs and painkillers, Leigh. Nastiness. Right when we're all looking forward to the next chapter, too ... Murphy's a goat-kissing (censored), isn't he?

Awwww! Lan is so cute when he laughs. I love these bits of romance. Interesting that Lan is thawing just as Rand is trying to freeze himself to death.

In other news: Nuli is hilarious, and Min is adorable. And I also loved the bit where Rand automatically stepped up beside Mistress Harfor. Just a little thing, to say as much as it does.

I was also excited by this chapter, and wondering how that meeting was to happen with any degree of subtlety. Of course it didn't, also hilariously, but we'll get to that later. Cheers all!
Daniel Goss
136. Beren
A random thought I just had about the difference between severing and burning out. I've always thought of it like this (and forgive me if this analogy has been used before):

Severing -- equivalent to cutting your spinal cord leaving you paralyzed from the waist down. Yes, the capacity for walking is still there, but the ability of the body to communicate with those limbs has been lost. Theoretically, if one could repair the spinal cord (and atrophy hasn't set in too badly and any of a number of things that would ruin the metaphor -- just go with it, ok?) one could restore function to the parts of the body that were no longer working and walking would again be possible.

Burning Out -- Equivalent to a double-amputee. Not only has the ability to walk been lost (not counting prosthetics or any number of things that would make the metaphor void -- c'mon, work with me!) but there are no longer any legs to heal. Kinda like when Nynaeve said she couldn't grow back Rand's hand.

Anyway, if this has been said before, then consider me late to the party. However, it seems logical to me.

Beren
edit because Beren can't spell today
Tina Pierce
137. scissorrunner
feel better Leigh. We're contacting Flinn from the bunker to see if he can come & help you out
Roger Powell
138. forkroot
Hi Leigh - bummer about a dental emergency. I feel your pain rather acutely as I'm still recovering from my own a couple of weeks ago. What was really weird was that the periodontist said he's never seen my condition occur in someone even 1/2 as old as I am!

He got all excited and took a bunch of pictures for medical journals. Great... nothing sucks worse than having something medical that isn't "routine".

OTOH, maybe this means I'm scheduled to live to 200 (assuming no binding rod)?
Alice Arneson
139. Wetlandernw
Terez @117 - There are undeniably some things in TEotW that don't quite make sense in light of later developments. My initial thought was "oh, it's one of those artifacts of incomplete world-building in the first book." But like I said, I did several hours of research, and from Book One on, even the glossaries clearly define Warders as "warriors bonded to Aes Sedai." I don't have a problem with the TR boys (or anyone else who hasn't had actual contact, particularly from a relatively isolated area) thinking that "Warders guard the Blight" in a sort of urban-legend manner. Their only knowledge of Aes Sedai and Warders comes from stories and legends, which we all know are incredibly reliable... In TEotW, they had some pretty funny misapprehensions about Aes Sedai, too. And cities, and Ogier, and Fades, and... all sorts of things. So I don't count their belief as an error - it fits perfectly with the situation. But when Agelmar talks about Warders out in the Borderlands, and in the same book's glossary it's quite clear that Warder=warrior-bonded-to-Aes-Sedai... I have to think that Warders mean there were also Aes Sedai in the area.

insectoid @121 - You might have better luck sending Torie an email - she'll see it sooner than a shout.

Stromgard @123 - That was my understanding as well.

alreadymad @128 - Good one! Incidentally, Aisling was born a Tinker - and she has "fierce eyes." Seems odd for a Tinker-born girl to choose Green - and be a 2 at that.
Lucas Vollmer
140. aspeo
For anyone interested:
The e-book cover for KOD has been put up on Tor's front page, go check it out!
Amir Noam
141. Amir
Leigh@129: Hope you feel better soon!

aspeo@132:
I seem to remember that this was the reason she was under the threat of being bound by a binder or being severed, and thus fled to swear to the Dark One.

You remember correctly. To quote from the Big Book of Bad Art:
was known for her ability to heal any injury, even to bring people back from the brink of death when all else had failed. She was often summoned around the world to deal with the most difficult cases, in particular to do with the brain.

In addition to being a Restorer, she was also a sadist.

Her pleasure was often exacted along with the healing. A little extra physical and mental pain was a small price to pay when compared with survival.
...
Those people she felt society could do without, however, were not so lucky. If they did not die from the torture, she killed them after.
...
Confronted by a delegation from the Hall she was given a choice: to be bound against violence, never to know her pleasure again, or to be severed from the One Power and cast out in disgrace from the Aes Sedai. To her, there was no choice. She became one of the first to make the journey to Shayol Ghul, one of the first to dedicate her soul to the Great Lord of the Dark.

I know, I've just admitted to having the BBoBA :-(
But I swear: I was young, I didn't know what I was doing (the devil made me do it! That's it!)...
When I bought it I did not yet read Leigh's "review" of it...
Thomas Keith
142. insectoid
WetNW @139: No worries—she saw it.

Aspeo @140: Yes indeed... very cool!!

Bzzz™.
Justin Levitt
144. TyranAmiros
JLevy @ 120
Given how easily Healing severing has been discovered by both Nynaeve and Flinn, I'm still inclined to think it was deliberately hidden/lost due to the fact that it would have been a fairly useless weave given how few were actually severed (as far as we know) in the Age of Legends. The "fact" that it was impossible to Heal would have even served as a useful belief--it would be the ultimate deterrent. By the time the Forsaken were around--presumably tens of thousands of years after channeling was discovered--everyone would "know" that it was impossible to Heal severing, and think it a useless inquiry (not to mention the problem of finding test cases).
Amir Noam
145. Amir
(Damn, this message keeps getting flagged at spam by tor.com. Hope this times it goes through)

Leigh@129: Hope you feel better soon!

aspeo@132:
I seem to remember that this was the reason she was under the threat of being bound by a binder or being severed, and thus fled to swear to the Dark One.

You remember correctly. To quote from the Big Book of Bad Art:
was known for her ability to heal any injury, even to bring people back from the brink of death when all else had failed. She was often summoned around the world to deal with the most difficult cases, in particular to do with the brain.

In addition to being a Restorer, she was also a sadist.

Her pleasure was often exacted along with the healing. A little extra physical and mental pain was a small price to pay when compared with survival.
...
Those people whe felt society could do without, however, were not so lucky. If they did not die from the torture, she killed them after.
...
Confronted by a delegation from the Hall she was given a choice: to be bound against violence, never to know her pleasure again, or to be severed from the One Power and cast out in disgrace from the Aes Sedai. To her, there was no choice. She became one of the first to make the journey to Shayol Ghul, one of the first to dedicate her soul to the Great Lord of the Dark.

I know, I've just admitted to having the BBoBA :-(
But I swear: I was young, I didn't know what I was doing (the devil made me do it! That's it!)...
When I bought it I did not yet read Leigh's "review" of it: http://humor.darkfriends.net/Seduction.txt
Alice Arneson
146. Wetlandernw
Now that's funny!!!! For everyone who's missing their fix today, I suggest a trip to read that link posted by Amir @145. ROFL!!
Lucas Vollmer
147. aspeo
Amir@145
I know, I've just admitted to having the BBoBA :-(
But I swear: I was young, I didn't know what I was doing (the devil made me do it! That's it!)...
When I bought it I did not yet read Leigh's "review" of it: http://humor.darkfriends.net/Seduction.txt


Lol it's ok I own the BBoBA too...
When I got it, I thought it was just an addendum to the WOT-verse, but now I know the error of my ways ;)

Also I agree with Wetlandernw, that link makes for some fun reading!
Thomas Keith
148. insectoid
Amir @145: I just went to that link... BAHAHAhahaha!! Leigh rocks. ;)

We own the BBoBA too; it does explain a few things, Bad Art aside...

Bzzz™.
Abdel Masdoua
149. TheDarkOne
So do I...
But it's the british one, without the Bad Art, so I never had the eye-gouging thingy going on for me. :-)

How is that for Mat-luckiness?
Leigh Butler
150. leighdb
Amir @145:

*blink*

Man, I forgot all about that. Talk about your blast from the past...
Gaidal
151. Ian B Manc
Leigh, please, please, please do a read through of the BBoBA.

I can almost taste the humourous derision to be cast at it.
Theresa Gray
152. Terez27
WARNING: WALL O TEXT

Insectoid@121 - GT SUCKS HUGE DONKEY BALLS. The only thing that's better about it is art quality, but it doesn't matter because they screwed Vegeta up horribly. I think they were jealous of how sexy he was. The plots are inane, and the character development is downright horrible. @127 Piccolo is awesome. I dunno if I would like DBZ without him. Have you seen Team Four Star?

Amir@122 - Indeed, I stole it. ;)

Leigh@129 - Been grinding them much? :D

wetlander@139 - The only reason why the Two Rivers perception fits in with the rest of it as a TEOTWism is that RJ obviously had it in his head that guarding the Blight was part of what Warders did, so that perception is necessarily a part of it.

JonathanLevy@120 - Here are a few references for you:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 18 - To the White Tower

The Amyrlin was silent for a moment. "Useful," she said at last. "Something useful. You wanted a sword. Suppose a man came at me with a sword. What would I do? Something useful, you can be sure. This, I think."

For an instant, Egwene thought she saw a glow around the woman at the other end of her bed. Then the air seemed to thicken; nothing changed that Egwene could see, but she could surely feel it. She tried to lift her arm; it did not budge any more than if she were buried to her neck in thick jelly. Nothing could move except her head.

"Release me!" Nynaeve grated. Her eyes glared, and her head jerked from side to side, but the rest of her sat as rigidly as a statue. Egwene realized that she was not the only one held. "Let me go!"

"Useful, wouldn't you say? And it is nothing but Air." The Amyrlin spoke in a conversational tone, as if they were all chatting over tea. "Big man, with his muscles and his sword, and the sword does him as much good as the hair on his chest."

"Let me go, I say!"

"And if I don't like where he is, why, I can pick him up." Nynaeve squawked furiously as she slowly rose, still in a sitting position, until her head almost touched the ceiling. The Amyrlin smiled. "I've often wished I could use this to fly. The records say Aes Sedai could fly, in the Age of Legends, but they aren't clear on how, exactly. Not this way, though. It doesn't work like that. You might reach out with your hands and pick up a chest that weighs as much as you do; you look strong. But take hold of yourself however you will, you cannot pick yourself up."

Nynaeve's head jerked furiously, but not another muscle of her twitched. "The Light burn you, let me go!"

Egwene swallowed hard and hoped she was not also to be lifted.

"So," the Amyrlin continued, "big, hairy man, and so forth. He can do nothing to me, while I can do anything at all to him. Why, if I had a mind to" – she leaned forward, her eyes intent on Nynaeve; suddenly her smile did not seem very friendly – "I could turn him upside down and paddle his bottom. Just like – " Suddenly the Amyrlin flew backwards so hard her head rebounded from the wall, and there she stayed, as if something were pressing against her.

Egwene stared, her mouth dry. This isn't happening. It isn't.

"They were right," the Amyrlin said. Her voice sounded strained, as though she found it hard to breathe. "They said you learned quickly. And they said it took your temper burning to get to the heart of what you can do." She took a struggling breath. "Shall we release each other together, child?"

...

Nynaeve stared at her a moment longer, then nodded. Abruptly she grimaced. "Light, I did not think anything tasted worse than raw sheepstongue root. I'll remember that, the next time you act the goose, so watch yourself."

Egwene winced. That had been the first thing the Amyrlin had done trying to rouse Nynaeve's anger. A dark glob of something that glistened like grease and smelled vile had suddenly appeared and, while the Amyrlin held Nynaeve with the Power, had been forced into the Wisdom's mouth. The Amyrlin had even held her nose to make her swallow. And Nynaeve remembered things, if she had seen them done once. Egwene did not think there was any way of stopping her if she took it into her mind to do it; for all her own success in making a flame dance, she could never have held the Amyrlin against a wall. "At least being on the ship isn't making you sick anymore."


Nynaeve never did novice training. She started out copying Siuan's weaves. A reminder:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 15 - The Gray Man

Egwene stared at her. "What? What did you do? Nynaeve?"

"'Of the Five Powers,'" Nynaeve said in a lecturing tone, faintly mocking, "'Air, sometimes called Wind, is thought by many to be of the least use. This is far from true.'" She finished with a tight laugh. "I told you there were other ways to defend ourselves. I used Air, to hold him with air. If it is a he; I could not see him clearly. A trick the Amyrlin showed me once, though I doubt she expected me to see how it was done. Well, are you going to lie there all day?"

Egwene scrambled up to hurry after her around the gallery. Before long a man did come into sight around the curve, dressed in plain brown breeches and coat. He stood facing the other way, balanced on the ball of one foot, with the other hanging in midair as if he had been caught in the middle of running. The man would feel as if he were buried in thick jelly, yet it was nothing but air stiffened around him. Egwene remembered the Amyrlin's trick, too, but she did not think she could duplicate it. Nynaeve only had to see a thing done once to know how to do it herself. When she could manage to channel at all, of course.


And we were reminded again in TGS:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 7 - The Plan for Arad Doman

"Here is the eighty-first weave," the White said. The glow of saidar sprang up around her, and she channeled, crafting a very complex weave of Fire, Air and Spirit. Complex, but useless. The weave created three burning rings of fire in the air which glowed with unusual light, but what was the point of that? Nynaeve already knew how to make fireballs and balls of light; why waste time learning weaves that repeated what she already knew, only in a far more complicated way? And why did each ring have to be a slightly different color?

Nynaeve waved an indifferent hand, repeating the weave exactly. "Honestly," she said, "that one seems the most useless of the bunch! What is the point of all these?"

Daigian pursed her lips. She said nothing, but Nynaeve knew that Daigian thought that this all should be far more difficult for Nynaeve than it was. Eventually, the woman spoke. "You cannot be told much about the testing. The only thing I can say is that you will need to repeat these weaves exactly, and do so while undergoing extreme distraction. When the time comes, you will understand."

"I doubt it," Nynaeve said flatly, copying the weave three times over while she spoke. "Because—as I believe I've told you a dozen times already—I'm not going to be taking the test. I'm already Aes Sedai."

"Of course you are, dear."

Nynaeve ground her teeth. This had been a bad idea. When she'd approached Corele—supposedly a member of Nynaeve's own Ajah—the woman had refused to acknowledge her as an equal. She'd been pleasant about it, as Corele often was, but the implication had been clear. She'd even seemed sympathetic. Sympathetic! As if Nynaeve needed her pity. She had suggested that if Nynaeve knew the hundred weaves each Accepted learned for the test to become Aes Sedai, it might help with her credibility.

The problem was, this placed Nynaeve in a situation where she was all but treated as a student again. She did see the use in knowing the hundred weaves—she'd spent far too short a time studying them, and virtually every sister knew it. However, by accepting the lessons, she hadn't meant to imply that she saw herself as a student!

She reached for her braid, but stopped herself. Her visible expressions of emotion were another factor in how she was treated by the other Aes Sedai. If only she had that ageless face! Bah!

Daigian's next weave made a popping sound in the air, and once again the weave itself was needlessly complex. Nynaeve copied it with barely a thought, committing it to memory at the same time.


Brandon read all of the RJ interviews while he was working on The Gathering Storm (no doubt Team Jordan informed him that we treat them as canon, so they were important to know). I think that Brandon had this one in mind when he put in this reminder:

Lord of Chaos book tour, 25 October 1994, Seattle - Edward Liu reporting

I asked him if what he has read on the net has ever affected what he writes. He said if many people correctly theorize what will happen latter on, he tries to put less clues of what will happen in the future. Also he said that if he finds out that too many people have a totally wrong idea of something, he occasionally tries to put in a clue hinting to what is actually right.


RobM@134 & Jonathan Levy@130 - I'm not sure why everyone assumes that Birgitte is no longer bound to the Horn and the Wheel. Min's viewings indicate that she is still in the game:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 12 - A Lily in Winter

Coming toward them was an apparition that made Min's jaw drop. Consternation pushed Rand beyond awareness. From comments she had known that the Captain-General of Elayne's Guards was a woman, and Elayne's Warder to boot, but nothing else. This woman had a thick, intricate golden braid pulled over one shoulder other short, white-collared red coat, and her voluminous blue trousers were tucked into boots with heels as high as Min's. Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Elayne's Warder and Captain-General of the Queen's Guards . . . wobbled ... a little, as though she had already been into the oosquai. Servants who caught sight of her decided they had work in another part of the Palace, leaving the three of them alone in the corridor. She did not seem to see Min and Aviendha until she almost walked into them.

...

"You're Birgitte Silverbow!" Min breathed. She had been sure even before Aviendha said the name. No wonder the Aiel woman was behaving as if she feared those threats would be carried out right then and there. Birgitte Silverbow! "I saw you at Falme!"

Birgitte gave a start as if goosed, then looked around hurriedly. Once she realized they were alone, she relaxed. A little. She eyed Min up and down. "Whatever you saw, Silverbow is dead," she said bluntly. "I'm Birgitte Trahelion, now, and that's all." Her lips twisted wryly for a moment. "The flaming Lady Birgitte Trahelion, if you flaming please. Kiss a sheep on Mother's Day if I can do anything about that, I suppose. And who might you be when you're to home? Do you always show off your legs like a bloody feather dancer?"

"I am Min Farshaw," she replied curtly. This was Birgitte Silverbow, hero of a hundred legends? The woman was foul-mouthed! And what did she mean, Silverbow was dead? The woman was standing right in front of her! Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man. Legend or no legend, that superior air irritated her no end. "Elayne, Aviendha and I just bonded a Warder," she said without thinking. "And if Elayne is celebrating a little, well, you better think twice about storming in, or you'll be the one sitting tender."


Gaidal is always born before Birgitte:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings

"Is Gaidal about?" Nynaeve asked. He was usually close by Birgitte, and he made Nynaeve nervous, refusing to acknowledge her existence, scowling when Birgitte spoke to her. It had been something of a shock at first to find Gaidal Cain and Birgitte – long-dead heroes linked in so many stories and legends – in Tel'aran'rhiod. But, as Birgitte herself had said, where better for heroes bound to the Wheel of Time to await rebirth than in a dream? A dream that had existed as long as the Wheel. It was they, Birgitte and Gaidal Cain and Rogosh Eagle-eye and Artur Hawkwing and all the others, that the Horn of Valere would summon back to fight at Tarmon Gai'don.

Birgitte's braid swung as she shook her head. "I have not seen him for some time. I think the Wheel has spun him out again. It always happens so." Expectation and concern both touched her voice.

If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with no knowledge of who he was, yet destined for adventures that would make new legends. The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape the Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wait again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel. New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.

"How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. "Years yet, surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

"I do not know, Nynaeve. Time here is not like time in the waking world. I met you here last ten days gone, as it seems to me, and Elayne only a day before. What was it for you?"

"Four days and three," Nynaeve muttered. She and Elayne had been coming to speak with Birgitte as often as they could, though too frequently it had not been possible with Thom and Juilin sharing the camp and standing night guard. Birgitte actually remembered the War of Power, one lifetime of it anyway, and the Forsaken. Her past lives were like books fondly remembered from long ago, the more distant dimmer than the nearer, but the Forsaken stood out. Especially Moghedien.


She is still tied to Gaidal - she will not weep alone for eternity like Moghedien threatened - but now she will be much older than he. The cycle of her rebirth was changed, but that is all. For Rand, it will be no change at all, because he will have only just died.
Theresa Gray
153. Terez27
WARNING: WALL O TEXT

Insectoid@121 - GT SUCKS HUGE DONKEY BALLS. The only thing that's better about it is art quality, but it doesn't matter because they screwed Vegeta up horribly. I think they were jealous of how sexy he was. The plots are inane, and the character development is downright horrible. @127 Piccolo is awesome. I dunno if I would like DBZ without him. Have you seen Team Four Star?

Amir@122 - Indeed, I stole it. ;) I tried to give you a link to my profile at Malazan Empire, but I got spammified.

Leigh@129 - Been grinding them much? :D

wetlander@139 - The only reason why the Two Rivers perception fits in with the rest of it as a TEOTWism is that RJ obviously had it in his head that guarding the Blight was part of what Warders did, so that perception is necessarily a part of it.

JonathanLevy@120 - Here are a few references for you:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 18 - To the White Tower

The Amyrlin was silent for a moment. "Useful," she said at last. "Something useful. You wanted a sword. Suppose a man came at me with a sword. What would I do? Something useful, you can be sure. This, I think."

For an instant, Egwene thought she saw a glow around the woman at the other end of her bed. Then the air seemed to thicken; nothing changed that Egwene could see, but she could surely feel it. She tried to lift her arm; it did not budge any more than if she were buried to her neck in thick jelly. Nothing could move except her head.

"Release me!" Nynaeve grated. Her eyes glared, and her head jerked from side to side, but the rest of her sat as rigidly as a statue. Egwene realized that she was not the only one held. "Let me go!"

"Useful, wouldn't you say? And it is nothing but Air." The Amyrlin spoke in a conversational tone, as if they were all chatting over tea. "Big man, with his muscles and his sword, and the sword does him as much good as the hair on his chest."

"Let me go, I say!"

"And if I don't like where he is, why, I can pick him up." Nynaeve squawked furiously as she slowly rose, still in a sitting position, until her head almost touched the ceiling. The Amyrlin smiled. "I've often wished I could use this to fly. The records say Aes Sedai could fly, in the Age of Legends, but they aren't clear on how, exactly. Not this way, though. It doesn't work like that. You might reach out with your hands and pick up a chest that weighs as much as you do; you look strong. But take hold of yourself however you will, you cannot pick yourself up."

Nynaeve's head jerked furiously, but not another muscle of her twitched. "The Light burn you, let me go!"

Egwene swallowed hard and hoped she was not also to be lifted.

"So," the Amyrlin continued, "big, hairy man, and so forth. He can do nothing to me, while I can do anything at all to him. Why, if I had a mind to" – she leaned forward, her eyes intent on Nynaeve; suddenly her smile did not seem very friendly – "I could turn him upside down and paddle his bottom. Just like – " Suddenly the Amyrlin flew backwards so hard her head rebounded from the wall, and there she stayed, as if something were pressing against her.

Egwene stared, her mouth dry. This isn't happening. It isn't.

"They were right," the Amyrlin said. Her voice sounded strained, as though she found it hard to breathe. "They said you learned quickly. And they said it took your temper burning to get to the heart of what you can do." She took a struggling breath. "Shall we release each other together, child?"

...

Nynaeve stared at her a moment longer, then nodded. Abruptly she grimaced. "Light, I did not think anything tasted worse than raw sheepstongue root. I'll remember that, the next time you act the goose, so watch yourself."

Egwene winced. That had been the first thing the Amyrlin had done trying to rouse Nynaeve's anger. A dark glob of something that glistened like grease and smelled vile had suddenly appeared and, while the Amyrlin held Nynaeve with the Power, had been forced into the Wisdom's mouth. The Amyrlin had even held her nose to make her swallow. And Nynaeve remembered things, if she had seen them done once. Egwene did not think there was any way of stopping her if she took it into her mind to do it; for all her own success in making a flame dance, she could never have held the Amyrlin against a wall. "At least being on the ship isn't making you sick anymore."


Nynaeve never did novice training. She started out copying Siuan's weaves. A reminder:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 15 - The Gray Man

Egwene stared at her. "What? What did you do? Nynaeve?"

"'Of the Five Powers,'" Nynaeve said in a lecturing tone, faintly mocking, "'Air, sometimes called Wind, is thought by many to be of the least use. This is far from true.'" She finished with a tight laugh. "I told you there were other ways to defend ourselves. I used Air, to hold him with air. If it is a he; I could not see him clearly. A trick the Amyrlin showed me once, though I doubt she expected me to see how it was done. Well, are you going to lie there all day?"

Egwene scrambled up to hurry after her around the gallery. Before long a man did come into sight around the curve, dressed in plain brown breeches and coat. He stood facing the other way, balanced on the ball of one foot, with the other hanging in midair as if he had been caught in the middle of running. The man would feel as if he were buried in thick jelly, yet it was nothing but air stiffened around him. Egwene remembered the Amyrlin's trick, too, but she did not think she could duplicate it. Nynaeve only had to see a thing done once to know how to do it herself. When she could manage to channel at all, of course.


And we were reminded again in TGS:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 7 - The Plan for Arad Doman

"Here is the eighty-first weave," the White said. The glow of saidar sprang up around her, and she channeled, crafting a very complex weave of Fire, Air and Spirit. Complex, but useless. The weave created three burning rings of fire in the air which glowed with unusual light, but what was the point of that? Nynaeve already knew how to make fireballs and balls of light; why waste time learning weaves that repeated what she already knew, only in a far more complicated way? And why did each ring have to be a slightly different color?

Nynaeve waved an indifferent hand, repeating the weave exactly. "Honestly," she said, "that one seems the most useless of the bunch! What is the point of all these?"

Daigian pursed her lips. She said nothing, but Nynaeve knew that Daigian thought that this all should be far more difficult for Nynaeve than it was. Eventually, the woman spoke. "You cannot be told much about the testing. The only thing I can say is that you will need to repeat these weaves exactly, and do so while undergoing extreme distraction. When the time comes, you will understand."

"I doubt it," Nynaeve said flatly, copying the weave three times over while she spoke. "Because—as I believe I've told you a dozen times already—I'm not going to be taking the test. I'm already Aes Sedai."

"Of course you are, dear."

Nynaeve ground her teeth. This had been a bad idea. When she'd approached Corele—supposedly a member of Nynaeve's own Ajah—the woman had refused to acknowledge her as an equal. She'd been pleasant about it, as Corele often was, but the implication had been clear. She'd even seemed sympathetic. Sympathetic! As if Nynaeve needed her pity. She had suggested that if Nynaeve knew the hundred weaves each Accepted learned for the test to become Aes Sedai, it might help with her credibility.

The problem was, this placed Nynaeve in a situation where she was all but treated as a student again. She did see the use in knowing the hundred weaves—she'd spent far too short a time studying them, and virtually every sister knew it. However, by accepting the lessons, she hadn't meant to imply that she saw herself as a student!

She reached for her braid, but stopped herself. Her visible expressions of emotion were another factor in how she was treated by the other Aes Sedai. If only she had that ageless face! Bah!

Daigian's next weave made a popping sound in the air, and once again the weave itself was needlessly complex. Nynaeve copied it with barely a thought, committing it to memory at the same time.


Brandon read all of the RJ interviews while he was working on The Gathering Storm (no doubt Team Jordan informed him that we treat them as canon, so they were important to know). I think that Brandon had this one in mind when he put in this reminder:

Lord of Chaos book tour, 25 October 1994, Seattle - Edward Liu reporting

I asked him if what he has read on the net has ever affected what he writes. He said if many people correctly theorize what will happen latter on, he tries to put less clues of what will happen in the future. Also he said that if he finds out that too many people have a totally wrong idea of something, he occasionally tries to put in a clue hinting to what is actually right.


RobM@134 & Jonathan Levy@130 - I'm not sure why everyone assumes that Birgitte is no longer bound to the Horn and the Wheel. Min's viewings indicate that she is still in the game:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 12 - A Lily in Winter

Coming toward them was an apparition that made Min's jaw drop. Consternation pushed Rand beyond awareness. From comments she had known that the Captain-General of Elayne's Guards was a woman, and Elayne's Warder to boot, but nothing else. This woman had a thick, intricate golden braid pulled over one shoulder other short, white-collared red coat, and her voluminous blue trousers were tucked into boots with heels as high as Min's. Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Elayne's Warder and Captain-General of the Queen's Guards . . . wobbled ... a little, as though she had already been into the oosquai. Servants who caught sight of her decided they had work in another part of the Palace, leaving the three of them alone in the corridor. She did not seem to see Min and Aviendha until she almost walked into them.

...

"You're Birgitte Silverbow!" Min breathed. She had been sure even before Aviendha said the name. No wonder the Aiel woman was behaving as if she feared those threats would be carried out right then and there. Birgitte Silverbow! "I saw you at Falme!"

Birgitte gave a start as if goosed, then looked around hurriedly. Once she realized they were alone, she relaxed. A little. She eyed Min up and down. "Whatever you saw, Silverbow is dead," she said bluntly. "I'm Birgitte Trahelion, now, and that's all." Her lips twisted wryly for a moment. "The flaming Lady Birgitte Trahelion, if you flaming please. Kiss a sheep on Mother's Day if I can do anything about that, I suppose. And who might you be when you're to home? Do you always show off your legs like a bloody feather dancer?"

"I am Min Farshaw," she replied curtly. This was Birgitte Silverbow, hero of a hundred legends? The woman was foul-mouthed! And what did she mean, Silverbow was dead? The woman was standing right in front of her! Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man. Legend or no legend, that superior air irritated her no end. "Elayne, Aviendha and I just bonded a Warder," she said without thinking. "And if Elayne is celebrating a little, well, you better think twice about storming in, or you'll be the one sitting tender."


Gaidal is always born before Birgitte:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings

"Is Gaidal about?" Nynaeve asked. He was usually close by Birgitte, and he made Nynaeve nervous, refusing to acknowledge her existence, scowling when Birgitte spoke to her. It had been something of a shock at first to find Gaidal Cain and Birgitte – long-dead heroes linked in so many stories and legends – in Tel'aran'rhiod. But, as Birgitte herself had said, where better for heroes bound to the Wheel of Time to await rebirth than in a dream? A dream that had existed as long as the Wheel. It was they, Birgitte and Gaidal Cain and Rogosh Eagle-eye and Artur Hawkwing and all the others, that the Horn of Valere would summon back to fight at Tarmon Gai'don.

Birgitte's braid swung as she shook her head. "I have not seen him for some time. I think the Wheel has spun him out again. It always happens so." Expectation and concern both touched her voice.

If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with no knowledge of who he was, yet destined for adventures that would make new legends. The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape the Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wait again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel. New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.

"How long do you have?" Nynaeve asked. "Years yet, surely." Birgitte was always tied to Gaidal, had been tied in story after story, in Age after Age, of adventure and a romance that even the Wheel of Time did not break. She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

"I do not know, Nynaeve. Time here is not like time in the waking world. I met you here last ten days gone, as it seems to me, and Elayne only a day before. What was it for you?"

"Four days and three," Nynaeve muttered. She and Elayne had been coming to speak with Birgitte as often as they could, though too frequently it had not been possible with Thom and Juilin sharing the camp and standing night guard. Birgitte actually remembered the War of Power, one lifetime of it anyway, and the Forsaken. Her past lives were like books fondly remembered from long ago, the more distant dimmer than the nearer, but the Forsaken stood out. Especially Moghedien.


She is still tied to Gaidal - she will not weep alone for eternity like Moghedien threatened - but now she will be much older than he. The cycle of her rebirth was changed, but that is all. For Rand, it will be no change at all, because he will have only just died.
Barry T
154. blindillusion
Wow Leigh,

Blair Witch Project, FTW! Right? No.... Yeah, I suppose you're right.

Very amusing review though.

I've skimmed through the book several times (and now have it on my computer), but thankfully no dimes were hurt in the pursuit.

edit: Just went and looked at that picture of Rand for the first time...must say...ouch.... And now I have to go find a rowan tree next to a cemetery. Sigh....

edit 2: Terez, has Min seen Mat since he gained the memories? I'm curious as to what Mat would look like, having all those in his head...

Which leads me to a frivolous prediction for ToM: Min will see the need to invent sunglasses when RPM rejoin each other. I'm pretty sure those sparks are going to be blazing.
john massey
155. subwoofer
Frieza was a guy? But he had a husky woman's voice, kinda like Myrtel from a show I forget. And don't forget the lipstick.

Vegeta- loved death of a Sayan Prince. Good stuff.

And thanks for the wall-o- text warning. I care but wow. I have the attention span of a dog.



Squirrel!

Woof™.
Thomas Keith
157. insectoid
So, is everyone off chasing squirrels now? ;)

Terez @153: That's quite a Wall. Re: GT... I'll take your word for it; I've spent quite enough as it is. ;)

Bzzz™.
Jonathan Lynn
158. kreeble
Re all the posts about the Seafolk Aes Sedai:

1) As has been stated, there are only three within the Tower. And as part of the Bargain, those three were to be given leave to stop being Aes Sedai and return to the ships.

2) I forget which of the 3 supergirls it is, but one of them remarks that the SF AS were isolated because of their distance from the water. Talaan is the oddity in that she WANTS to go to the Tower. For the rest of the culture, it truly is a sacrifice to undertake.

3) As Librarians, there isn't any guarantee that they would have access to the 13th Depository. The only persons who know of it are the Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, and the specific librarians who tend to it.

And I thought there would be a 4 for some reason. But I cant seem to remember which posts nagged at me. Its late.
Theresa Gray
159. Terez27
blindillusion@154 - Nope, Mat was already gone after Sammael when Min arrived in Caemlyn, and of course Min was already gone by the time Mat got to Salidar. She hasn't seen Mat since Falme. Odd to think about, that. Also, she showed up at the Tower in book 4 not long after Mat had left, of course. They keep missing each other.

subwoofer@155 - Frieza was feminized in the English dub because of his appearance. His Japanese voice was more manly. Goku's voice, different story. Also, that was Vegeta's second death, right? I think I liked his first death the best.

insectoid@157 - I bought like 3 GT tapes, and then wished I hadn't. I didn't even buy all of DragonBall, even though I liked it...wasn't the same as Z (partly due to lack of Vegeta). In fact, I didn't watch all the DB eps...did read the whole manga for the story, but I don't know some of the filler bits from the anime.
john massey
160. subwoofer
I dunno. GT were like Archie comics. I still watched because I am loyal to the series. Kinda like me and RJ. I stuck with it through WH and CoT.

What was a train wreck to watch was the movie. That went sideways from the first scene. Le sigh. Vegeta is hilarious though, the way he flips out at Goku on a regular basis. And Vegeta's first death? Too much whining, not enough dying. I am always partial to last stands.

Woof™.
Theresa Gray
161. Terez27
LOL, I decided to be loyal to Akira Toriyama. He had almost nothing to do with GT. That's probably why it sucked. Even he thought it sucked.
Alice Arneson
162. Wetlandernw
Terez27 @153 - Well, you can certainly read it that way if you wish, but it's certainly not "the only reason" it fits. IMO, the boys' misconceptions regarding Warders fit right in with their misconceptions about a lot of other things, some of which very quickly become obvious even to them. If you want to read it that "Warders in the Blight" near the end of the book is still an ism, fine; there's no evidence to prove it's not. However, I would like to point out that there's no evidence to prove that those Warders were not really there, or were not bonded to Aes Sedai, either. We haven't spent much time in the Borderlands since then, except for the meeting of the rulers and Lan & Nyanaeve's jaunt to World's End etc. Unless it was relevant to the story somewhere to point out that an AS (or several) had "served time on the Border" it could easily just not have been mentioned.

In the absence of proof either way, I like to enhance my enjoyment of the story by assuming there were Green sisters up there fighting the good fight. If you wish to shrug it off as "RJ goofed it" you have every right to do so. But unless you have some kind of actual proof, don't try to convince me. :)

kreeble @158 - in New Spring it was mentioned that there were 4 Sea Folk Aes Sedai, but two of them were very old. Presumably one of them has since died; alternatively, both have died but a new one has come in the intervening years.
Theresa Gray
163. Terez27
@wetlander - I didn't say it was the only way that their misconception fits, just that it's necessarily a part of RJ's goof. The proof that the 'Warders guarding the Blight' thing being a goof is in the fact that we haven't heard about it since book 1, and some other things (like the fact that they had to send sisters from the Tower to capture Taim, and to advise the Borderland rulers...no mention of any sisters in the Borderlands in the entire series). But I don't particularly care about your opinion on it.
Karen Jacobs
164. KJacobs
Terez27 @ 163: "...no mention of any sisters in the Boarderlands in the entire series"

I may be mistaken, but weren't there sisters with the Borderland rulers when they had their secret meeting? I know they met some along the way that they gathered in, but I would swear that at least one ruler brought their advisor with them.
Theresa Gray
166. Terez27
KJacobs - yeah, they had advisors...but almost all the rulers have Aes Sedai advisors. We're looking for evidence of Warders guarding the Blight itself. Only one of the advisors - Coladara - was actually with the Borderland rulers when they went south. The rest had just mysteriously showed up. They were likely either those sent by Siuan to recapture Taim or sent by Alviarin (see TFOH prologue).
diane heath
167. jadelollipop
The comment about the 4 Seafolk AS reminds me that in KOD one Aes Sedai was mentioned as from Malkier.
Gaidal
168. chaplainchris1
Re: the SF Aes Sedai, esp. @158 and @104:

I've long held the Looney Theory TM that the Sea Folk sent to be Aes Sedai are engaged in a conspiracy of sorts against the Aes Sedai, at least when AS conflict with SF. I don't just mean the current three SF Aes Sedai - I mean *all* of the SF Aes Sedai, ever, for the last 3000 years.

At the least, there's a conspiracy of silence. Apparently, the early indoctrination by the Sea Folk has been effective enough that in 3000 years, *none* of the SF "sacrificed" to the Tower have revealed to their sisters the existence of large numbers of SF Windfinders who can channel. One would expect that occasionally one of these girls might have resented being sacrificed and sent away from their people, or would simply have bought in to WT indoctrination, and said "hey, you know that problem where our numbers are dwindling? We should go recruit from my people, there's thousands of channelers there!" Even with all the stuff about the WT being the hope of the world, none of the SF Aes Sedai ever betrayed that secret.

Then consider that all three of the current SF Aes Sedai are Browns, Librarians, and keepers of the 13th depository. (Contrary to kreeble @158, we are told that they are the keepers of the secret histories.) Also, the only other SF Aes Sedai we know of, from New Spring, was *also* a Brown Librarian.

Come on. ALL FOUR known SF Aes Sedai not only choose Browns but end up assigned to the Tower Library as keepers of the secret histories? The coincedence is a bit much.

The glossaries continually draw attention to the fact that the librarians also have access to the 13th Depository, not just the Amyrlin, Keeper, and Sitters. Why make such a point of that? Unless the Librarians might be important at some point. Given the fact that Nynaeve and Elayne's bargain gives the three the right to give up being AS and return to their people, it raises the possibility that the SF might soon have access to ALL the AS's dirty secrets.

There's also a reference - I think it's Siuan talking to Moiraine in Fal Dara, in tGH - that the SF Aes Sedai are being closemouthed about the rumors and prophecies regarding the Coramoor. I believe Siuan says something like "it seems in this our sisters are Sea Folk before they are Aes Sedai."

This could be a big problem for the Tower, and it's why Talaan is important for more than just her incredible strength. She's the first known SF to ever *want* to leave her people and become Aes Sedai.

Given all this, it *is* a little strange that the SF Aes Sedai never passed on skills like Healing and Linking. But a) given that they were sent very young, they might not know fully what Windfinder training consists of, and b) they may be running a narrow tightrope of keeping AS secrets from the SF and SF secrets from the AS. But the fact that all the known SF AS are assigned to the 13th depository makes it seem as if they are aiming for this before they ever enter the Tower - as if they're sleeper agents, not drawing attention to themselves but instructed to learn all they can about Tower secrets in case the SF ever need them.

I only half belief this, but...
Gaidal
169. eurorandlander
leighdb @ 150: I guess we can safely assume that your review did NOT reflect the opinions of Paramount pictures or its affiliates?
Alice Arneson
170. Wetlandernw
KJacobs @164 - All we know about those thirteen sisters is this:

Accompanying King Paitar of Arafel to the Black Hills meetingplace were his advisor Coladara (Ajah unknown) and seven other Aes Sedai who were visiting her. No identities or affiliations, no indication of whence they had come, or why. While it is possible that they were the ones Siuan sent to take Taim, it is also possible that they were in Arafel for any of a number of other reasons.

Tenobia brings Illeisien (Ajah unknown) and four more (also with unknown identities or affiliations) who were in Saldaea for reasons unknown, but apparently not for the same reason as Memara, the "advisor" (Red and possibly Black) sent by Alviarin to keep Tenobia under control. Tenobia assumed they would "go scurrying to find Memara," but instead they "were more intent on secrecy than I."

Lots of unkowns. We might RAFO, or we might not. Until then, we can only guess at their reasons for being there. I have my guesses, which might not be the same as someone else's, but none are susceptible of proof as yet.

Oh, and incidentally, Ethenielle's advisor Nianh (Ajah unknown) and Easar's advisor Aisling (Green Ajah) were not with them because they'd vanished the second they heard about the troubles in the Tower. Tenobia probably did not have an Aes Sedai advisor (prior to Memara) since she "tolerated the counsel of soldiers, but no one else."
Tess Laird
171. thewindrose
We can't count out Moiraine can we? She and Lan have been up to the borderlands and blight. She also has visited Someshta once before! Also, in New Spring there are a ton of Aes Sedai wandering around the Borderlands, making Moiraine nervous. Even !Dun! Cadsuane has been up there.

I am pretty sure Elyas has been up there - maybe with Rina. Ingtar remembers a warder who could talk to wolfs.

The Namelle sisters were retired in Arafel, and they traveled extensively.

tempest™
Karen Jacobs
172. KJacobs
Wetlandernw @ 170: Thank you for digging up the specifics. You were very gracious, as always! :)
Alice Arneson
173. Wetlandernw
thewindrose - I always forget about that! New Spring is my least-read of all the books, so I don't have those events set in my head as well. Good points. I wonder if the anthill was stirred by the Aiel "war" and got some sisters looking outside the Tower and deciding to go out and be active for a while, but after 20 years they have grown less eager to be out and about, and more inclined to return to the Tower to rest. No proof of that either, of course; IIRC, the only thing we know about it is that roughly a third of the active AS tend to be out of the Tower around the time that the series takes place.

KJacobs - :) I try! I hate to either brush off or go along with new ideas with nothing but my own preconceptions for basis, so I usually can't help it - I have to see what I can find. In this case, we found... no proof of anything but the presence of 1 known and 12 unknown (and unexpected, from our viewpoint) Aes Sedai in two Borderland nations. I'm glad you pointed them out, though; I had thought about them at one point and intended to go look it up, and then I forgot.
Theresa Gray
174. Terez27
@wetlander - I asked Brandon about it, since he seemed to be in a talkative mood today:

I would say that yes, they are up there guarding. There are a disproportionate number, it seems, at times. Morgase had one AS, as did Berelain, to give advice. Borderlanders often have more.


Of course, we know exactly how many the Borderlanders have had lately so far as advisors go, so it seems to be a safe assumption that there have been less lately (re: the disproportionate number), and we can also assume there were less (probably none) when Malkier was overrun.

The 12 that joined Coladara...could be Siuan's 12, and could be something Alviarin cooked up. Hard to say till it's all over, but they seemed to be unexpected visitors, and Ethenielle at least is uncomfortable about having so many with them.
john massey
175. subwoofer
I hate to either brush off or go along with new ideas with nothing but my own preconceptions for basis,


@Wet- ahhhhhh, but that is all part of the fun of this blog- flying off with half baked schemes. Like I tell my wife after we have been at the 7 layer bean dip- Let 'er rip.


Woof™.
Heidi Byrd
176. sweetlilflower
@sub: you meant to say, "...after we have been partaking of the Bowl of Winds...", right?
Alice Arneson
177. Wetlandernw
Terez - Well, now, that's an interesting answer...! I confess to being a little surprised - it's the answer I would have wanted but not really expected. Cool!
Theresa Gray
178. Terez27
I also asked about Elyas, and he MAFO'd that. If it was RJ, I can see him working that into the other Moiraine prequel or something, lol...Elyas just happened to know one or two of the Malkieri that trained Lan, or something, and accompanied them into the Blight. I only asked him that because no one had asked him anything about Lan yet.
Jonathan Levy
179. JonathanLevy
Terez27@153

Wow, you've certainly gone to a lot of trouble. There are a few more references than I remembered. Still, there is a very large gap between the situations you quoted and the situation with Moghedien. With Siuan, the weave is sitting there in front of her for a while, before she duplicates it. With Daigian she's sitting there calmly demonstrating to Nynaeve, who copies it easily. This is not quite the same situation with Moghedien:

Something seized her feet, jerking them backward and up off the ground; her hands flew up and back until wrists met ankles above her head. Her clothes became powder that slid from her skin, and her braid dragged her head back until the braid rested on her bottom. Frantic, she tried to step out of the dream. Nothing happened. She hung doubled in midair like some netted creature, every muscle strained to its limit. Tremors ran through her; her fingers twitched feebly, brushing her feet. She thought if she tried to move anything else, her back would break...
...The thickness vanished from Nynaeve’s mouth. "I am alone, you stupid- Pain. As if she had been beaten from ankles to shoulders, every stroke landing at once. She bellowed shrilly. Again. She tried to clamp her teeth shut, but her own endless shriek filled her ears. Tears rolled shamingly down her cheeks as she sobbed, waiting hopelessly for the next...

...Nynaeve fell to the ground like a dropped sack. The fall knocked every speck of breath from her lungs as surely as a hammer in the belly. Straining to breathe, she struggled to make racked muscles move, to fight through pain to saidar.

Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. "Go, Nynaeve!" It was a mumbling shout. "Get away!" Birgitte’s head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.


The ability to memorize weaves is not a magical attribute. It doesn't mean that every weave performed around Nynaeve will be automatically stored in her brain, as long as she was awake and her eyes weren't closed. Here, she's in Mortal Danger, has just been dropped on the floor, is struggling to breathe, and is desperately fumbling for Saidar to save her life. You expect her to notice the details of Moghedien's weave? That's asking a lot.

To put it another way - anyone can repeat back a sentence they just heard - but many people will get it wrong if you distract them. Almost all will fail if you tie them up, torture them a bit, and drop them on the floor just before. Not that I know this from personal experience, mind you, it's just common sense. Anything more complicated than a sentence is almost certain to get muddled up. Reproducing a complicated weave perfectly, when any mistake might have disastrous consequences? And being confident enough of your memory to make the attempt? Let's just say that if this is what Sanderson is referring to, I'll be very disappointed.


I'm not sure why everyone assumes that Birgitte is no longer bound to the Horn and the Wheel. Min's viewings indicate that she is still in the game:

I'm not assuming that she's no longer bound to the Wheel. I believe that it's still an open question. As for being bound to the Horn, I don't think it can summon her when she's not in T'A'R, no matter how she was ripped out. I'm not sure you meant to suggest otherwise, so I'll leave it at that.

As for being bound to the wheel, you state the facts explicitly, but only hint at the argument implicitly. I will try to dispute what I suppose your argument to be. I hope you will forgive me if I have not guessed correctly. The facts you bring are:

1) Min sees many images around Birgitte, too many for one lifetime.
2) Min sees her connected to a man who is both older and younger.

You implicitly assume (though not without basis) that:

3) The viewings reflect solely the future.
4) The 'both older and younger' refers to their relative age during one "weaving-out" of the wheel. For example, if they are woven out as follows:
Age 1: Jane & John
Age 2: Deirdre & Dan

You assume that the ages thing refers to the age relation between Jane & John, or between Deirdre & Dan, but not between Jane & Dan or John & Deirdre.

Therefore you conclude from (3) that she is still bound to the wheel, but from (4) that their age relations are no longer constant, meaning that from now on she will sometimes be older then Gaidal.


Here's how I understood it:

(3) Notwithstanding positive assertions that Min sees only the future, I consider this viewing of hers to be like her viewings of Lan (cradle with sword, 7 ruined towers). In other words, it reflects the identity of the person, not an specific event in their future. This means that she's seeing a reflection of Birgitte's past lives.

I also think it unlikely that the wheel has the age lace planned out so far in advance, and in such detail, that a thousand years earlier an image appears for Min to read. We've seen in the past that images/auras changed based on a character's actions (e.g. Nynaeve's heavy man's ring of gold only appeared after her relationship with Lan was established, the swarms of sparks appeared greater when Nynaeve showed up at Baerlon in tEotW), which implies a degree of freedom of choice. I don't think the weave of the heroes' lives has been planned out infinitely far ahead.

(4) The 'both older and younger' is because John is older than Jane, but younger than Deirdre in the previous example.

So my conclusion is that we learn nothing of Birgitte's future from this.

Mind you, I'm not saying that it's clear-cut either way. I certainly hope to see her find Gaidal. That would probably lengthen the series by two books though... ;)
Gaidal
180. joe heron
now that the new covers are caught up with this blog, can you use that instead of those DKS covers. i bet you your blog will increase in traffic 100 folds!
Heidi Byrd
181. sweetlilflower
@Jonathan Levy: If you look at the archived RJ interviews, he explicitly said that all of Min's viewings are of the future.
Leigh Butler
182. leighdb
eurorandlander @169:

Not necessarily, no.

joe heron @180:

That wouldn't be very symmetrical of me, so probably not.
Matthew Smith
183. blocksmith
Wetlandernw@165

Wow...I didn't realize my computer screen could drip sarcasm.
Alice Arneson
184. Wetlandernw
Oh, please tell me the dripping didn't damage your computer.
Matthew Smith
185. blocksmith
Wetlandernw@184

I could only be so lucky.

Leighdb@182

Perhaps not symmetrical, but it would open up entirely new avenues to your re-read introductions...you could mix in a little new cover vs. Sweet covers comparisons, contrasting artistic styles, scene selections, etc.

You know us...we like to run and run and run(*while banging pots*).
Bonnie Andrews
186. misfortuona
You know us...we like to run and run and run(*while banging pots*).


Blocksmith, that might be the best description of us I've ever heard.

Mis-dibs on the collander
Tess Laird
187. thewindrose
**Looks about furtively** Don't forget the scissors:)

tempest™
Karen Fox
188. thepupxpert
Re BBoBA - ooh ooh I want one I want one, where can I get it???
James Hogan
189. Sonofthunder
I believe this is it?

http://www.amazon.com/World-Robert-Jordans-Wheel-Time/dp/0312869363/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281643069&sr=8-18

I saw this once at a "Friends of the Library" booksale(incidentally, the same one that I bought every single WoT book, $16 total!) and flipped through it; I had only read the first two WoT books at this time so I was a bit confused as to all the characters...I wish I'd bought it now, I think it was only $4!
Rob Munnelly
190. RobMRobM
Where's Leigh? We're running dry here. Help! Somebody bang a few more pots.

Rob
Gaidal
191. joe heron
blocksmith @ 185
leigh did mention in a prior post she will not retro edit any of her blogs as it dilutes the essence of blogging, or something like that.

BUT now that those covers are here, and its current and relevant to content, why not address it as so?

@ leigh. did you ever mention what you thought about the DKS covers as a whole? can you say that the covers are the best that can be done for this series currently? i think it'll be interesting to hear an honest statement from an officially tor sponsored blog. maybe its neither here or there....

*bangs pots*
T C
192. Freelancer
blocksmith,

So many references to banging pots, but I like This one the best.
I draw comfort from the fact that they defeat their own claim with their discordant din...
For myself, stirring the pot is preferable, donchano.

At the same time, I can't get behind the idea of a cover-art comparison. We all know that it would amount to little more than a Sweet-roast. The eBook cover articles by Irene already exist as places for such discussions. I think it wise of Leigh to hold to the "symmetry" of sticking to her existing format, and reviewing the print covers with the ultimate entry for each volume.


Mis-Betty Crocker,

Collanders do make for great pretend-marching-band instruments, do they not?
Bonnie Andrews
193. misfortuona
Free@192
We're pretending? :(

Mis-disappointed
Thomas Keith
194. insectoid
Blocksmith @185:
You know us...we like to run and run and run (*while banging pots*).
Yeah, that's us allright! LOL!!

Mis-collander @193:
We're pretending? :(
Freelancer might be. ::runs for cover::

Bzzz™.
Heidi Byrd
195. sweetlilflower
Okay, I have a new plotline to discuss for the next few hours. Verin said that the LB will not be fought the way Rand thinks it will. So, how does Verin think Rand thinks the LB will be fought? TL lines up their army while TD lines up their army and we have a big throwdown? Pistols, oops! I mean dragons, at dawn? OP duel? Bake sale? Come On! We can bang some pots and have some fun at the same time! Yeah for new, odd plotlines!

Also, since the SF and the Seanchan look similar, do you suppose Hawkwing's second wife was from the SF?

edit: I hit the "post" button and got some weird error message... but my post showed up here anyway. Freaky... :)
john massey
196. subwoofer
Wha?

Screw the dang pots! I'll use my armpit. phfttt! phfttt! phfttt!

Isn't that what Billy and the Boingers did?


Woof™.
john massey
197. subwoofer
So anyways, not to be controversial- perish the thought- but what about the new book covers. I think the general consensus is that the existing book covers look like mung. The artist that did them should be beaten soundly about the head and cast out to survive in the cold and the snow- and no I do not mean send him up here!

Anyways, we have these cool and splinky artists doing kick ass covers, like this last one, why don't we use them to bang out one for ToM? Why do we have to go with mediocrity?

Woof™.
john massey
198. subwoofer
@Sweetlil- have I not introduced you to the magic of edit?

Pots and huffing... in the span of 20 posts. Is something going on that I should know about?

Woof™.
john massey
199. subwoofer
Gahhhh! dang thing ate my edit!

lemme see if I kin remember...

I got some jokes not meant for this pg site...

Naw... anyways, I was ranting about the power of edit. Let this be an object lesson for those folks who grab the first post. Yeah, sure, go hard, get the gold, but then go back and actually say something. The power is yours. Unless you are some noob that is still red, but if you have been around, what is your issue with going grey?

Free always posts later, but it is relevant. Me, I'm simple, but as I have said, these current books honk me off wayyy too much to get passionate about. I think in a fit of rage at the plod that never dies I threw the books against something hard, like my fire place, and just couldn't be troubled with a rescue. I find them and start into these grinding chapters- lookout yo. And I can't be bothered with the minutia. I'm just not wired that way. I have said in the past- I have the attention span of Doug and all- Too much to do in RL. Heck, when I care, I stalk these posts butt and drop wtf's from afar, but this stuff would have me banging my head, if I didn't already suffer from brain damage(I've wised up in my dotage). I'm not saying bring the kitchen sink- but dang, ya know?

But what do I know?

Meh.

Woof™.
john massey
200. subwoofer
2 Hunny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Wha? Was it something I said? I start ranting and the thread dies? Shucks... sorry.

As for Leigh- yup, she is all kids of awesome, and I stand by her not edit to appeal to the masses position. Good stuff there. It is what it is and we all love these blogs/posts as they are so don't rock the boat. But the covers kill me. It's been a running joke in my circle that a 3yr old with crayons drawing stick figures... I can't draw to save myself, but geeze, I can get the details right and not leave fans scratching their heads wondering who spiked the kool aid.

Woof™.
Heidi Byrd
201. sweetlilflower
Subwoofer, I'll get you one post closer to 200.

Well, I was going to help you get closer to 200, but you just reposted your trademark! That's cheating. You at least have to make some snarky comment...

**goes off in a huff**

edit: just so the previous posts make sense, I'll leave my original comment.

Sub: You did a good job with the snarky comments :)
john massey
202. subwoofer
Whew!

There- that was my venti- mocha- latte- frappa-crappa for the day.

Wait- can't we afford a real stage? Maybe just a podium? What's with this soap box? Do they still make soap? Is this an antique? Can I sell it on E-bay?

Woof™.
T C
203. Freelancer
Don't rock the boat? That's like saying don't run around banging pots! It's the box again, he wants to put us in the box!


sweetlilflower,

You have to take the Woofer for who/what he is, and that's what he is.


Oh, and subwoofer, about your reference to my posting habits, I refuse to try and hit an early comment. It's much more fun to find out what the "first responders" think, and then play the field. I just worry that if I say my piece right away... Well, you get the idea.
Jonathan Levy
204. JonathanLevy
sweetlilflower@181

I'm aware of that. But Min's viewings of Lan don't fit very well into the "future only" mode. My feeling is that Jordan retconned her ability. At first it was useful to introduce backstory, but once we already knew the characters he used it to foreshadow and to drive the plot.

Of course, that explanation is much more convincing for viewings in tEotW than in WH, but Birgitte's future lives being foretold millenia in advance is also a bit hard to swallow.
Leigh Butler
205. leighdb
joe heron @191:

I did not, not here anyway. But I talk about each of the covers individually on the last post for each book (except possibly for TEOTW), so you can garner an overall impression from those.

OK?
john massey
206. subwoofer
@Free- I get it, you like to counter punch. Or maybe you are saving the best for later, to loosely paraphrase Wet, you don't want to "blow your wad".

After last night I was doing laps looking for these books, but I have the sinking feeling that there were burning logs in the fireplace when I was doing my version of the shot putt w/ big book. Insulting part was, at some point, after forgetting the PITA factor of WH, I bought a second book,hardcover, so both copies seem to have gone sideways. I have Scotland Yard working on it.

Banging pots- I am not sure the world is ready for that.

Woof™.
Lucas Vollmer
207. aspeo
Sweetlilflower@195
I think the LB will be full of battling/battlery/battlesing(???). :P
Anyways, there will be a lot of fighting with heavy use of channeling on both sides, and it will make for a great read. However, I also think that Rand will most likely not be there. I'm thinking he will be in T'A'R fighting Ishydin or maybe even the DO somehow. I could see the this battle affecting the one on the ground much like at Falme.

I'm not sure how the bore is going to be sealed, but I'd like to think that it will involve both male and female channelers working together to do it. It would fit very strongly with the underlying theme that the greatest accomplishments occur when men and women are working together.

Also, I didn't realize the SF and the Seanchan looked similar. Did I miss something somewhere? For some reason I always pictured them looking more closely like the Aiel, I don't really know why.

Subwoofer@202
What's wrong with getting on a soapbox? I love getting on mine... ;)
James Hogan
208. Sonofthunder
Well it's a warm day in Houston and yet I'm still enjoying my Friday Starbucks Mocha Day(Hm, should I trademark that??) and feel in a posting mood. Of course, the problem with that mood is that supposedly I should have something worthwhile to contribute, as well. Hm.

Well anyways, this is sort of off topic(but I figure we're getting a new post anyway soon, right?), but in response to sweetlil@195, it does seem like the prevailing opinion in RL is that the Last Battle(not Narnia!) will be fought classic-Blight style. Massive good armies of the Light versus millions of Trollocs. But of course, I figure Rand will have to be off doing his fighting-Dark-One thing meanwhile.

A thought I've had recently on TG: with all the focus on the TP, and with our knowledge that the TP is the DO's essence, would it make any sense for Rand to channel as much of the TP as humanly possible into a...void or somesuch? And hence destroying his own body and the DO at the same time? I don't know, just a wacky idea I had.

And I think I really need to stop posting when I'm on a coffee high. *runs away*
James Jones
209. jamesedjones
195 sweetlilflower
So, how does Verin think Rand thinks the LB will be fought?
She's probably one of the few who can accurately guess at that.

As for me, I think the LB will be a constant retreat from Tarwin's Gap. Shadowspawn will pour out of the blight (and any Way Gates left unguarded). Several places, such as TV and Andor, will provide renewed forces just as the light is about to be slaughtered. But it will take up an entire book because the shadow will fight the light all the way back to Illian (where the Horn is always referenced in prophecy), where Rand will provide some miracle through his death to stop the destruction of mankind... oh, and the wheel, too.

Or maybe I'm just being a little pessimistic, but that's how I've always seen it: Near-total apocalypse before the end.

Edit: to add that I think the Borderland rulers' stance that "the LB will be fought in the Blight" is just another of those quotes that RJ loved to throw out just to show how completely wrong his character's information is.
john massey
210. subwoofer
To be clear, I'm not saying that you have to say something profound about WoT(would be handy tho')- chapter-wise, as you can tell, I go off topic frequently- heck, I am wayy off the reservation half the time- anyways, just put some effort in, something beyond "hey first post". Power of edit. If you want to, say something original, like "nice socks Leigh". I dunno. Something that stimulates conversation, gives folks a chuckle, makes them think, makes them want to bleach their eyeballs, whatever. Be creative.

Something beyond monkeys flinging poo, any monkey can do that, hurl a biscuit or a copy of Narcs Anonymous.

Edit- I have money that says Mad Max is in the last book.

Woof™.
D.I. Rock
211. FeatherDancer
195. sweetlilflower

What Verin said from WH.
The Chosen are predictable, but the Great Lord is aything but. Even after decades of study I can't be certain exactly what he wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be.

I always felt Verin's comments refer to the DO's attempt to ravage Rand's spirit and twist his soul. I think it was Moridin who tells Graendal to make Rand suffer pain of heart. I assumed other Chosen and lesser dark minions were given instructions aimed at similar ends. Team Dark's efforts at sowing chaos and creating confusion were part of the battle too. All things targeted to repeatedly swing Rand against the stops.

It was a pretty successful campaign. It drove Rand to completely shut himself away emotionaly, even from Min, and culminated with almost killing Tam.

I do think there are battles yet to come. Alludra & Matt's Dragons have to happen. Rand and Min still need to figure out what to do about the Bore and neutralizing the DO. Then Rand and friends have to carry out the plan. But, creating pain of heart for Rand and Company has been a winning tactic and I don't think it will be given up by Team Dark.
diane heath
212. jadelollipop
I am re-reading Gathering Storm (am currently reading Tuon's conversation with Beslan) It occurs to me that the Seanchan empire is much like the Roman Empire (take the oaths/keep them/go your own way). I rather think that the Seanchan empire will be a way of uniting the lands on both sides of the world after TG.
Hence the mention of a side story of Mat/Tuon in Seanchan proper.
Rand may have helped the Land of the Madmen as well since once the current crazy male channelers die off the new ones won't go insane.
Jonathan Levy
213. JonathanLevy
All this pot-banging reminds me of an old Scots poem I read once. The kilt-wearers from a previous thread will doubtless appreciate it!

To the Tron-Kirk Bell:

Wanwordy, crazy, dinsome thing,
As e'er was fram'd to jow or ring,
What gar'd them sic in steeple hing,
They ken themsel,
But weel wat I they couldna bring
Waur sounds frae hell.


http://books.google.com/books?id=d2iHPXK0DgMC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=tron+kirk+bell&source=bl&ots=96quQK2FXh&sig=Kxy-QvQWJCu78tV0SdSv2ywIWx4&hl=en&ei=RXNlTMWKFM-YOMKG6b8N&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tron%20kirk%20bell&f=false
Matthew Smith
214. blocksmith
I think I need to clear up some slight misconceptions. First, I agree with Mis and Insectoid that certainly, we (the Commenters) very much enjoy the running and the (pot) banging.

However, my reference was to indicate that, should Leigh choose to do so, the cover comparisons would have given us much enjoyment...similar to Ruprick's excitement at moving to Oklahoma. Because we like open spaces too.

I have no intention or desire to ask Leigh to edit her work (crossed that bridge and then blasted it). I was merely thinking about the many pithy comments she could make by saying "and on this ebook cover we have a dark, brooding, Gunslinger- reminiscent Mat so eloquently evoked in graphic detail" on one line and then "...since when did Loial turn into an overgrown squirrel wearing a coat?"

So yes, I guess Free is correct that it would be a Sweet roast (note not a sweet roast...although it could be that too).
Matthew Smith
215. blocksmith
Boy...that was odd. Big error message, yet post showed up anyway.

I am pleasantly surprised/concerned.
Matthew Smith
216. blocksmith
Subwoofer@196

Was that an altered cover of The Joshua Tree album?

If so, the walrus looks nothing like Adam Clayton, Jr.
Birgit
217. birgit
Also, I didn't realize the SF and the Seanchan looked similar. Did I miss something somewhere? For some reason I always pictured them looking more closely like the Aiel, I don't really know why.

The Amayar probably look like the Aiel. They also follow a version of the Way of the Leaf. Seanchan is a big continent with different peoples. Some Seanchan look like Sea Folk, but not all.
Mike McD
218. msmcdon
Referring back to the earlier discussion on the boys thinking of Warders guarding the Blight and the glossary's confirmation of same -- has anyone else had the impression that the glossary is a corrupted source sometimes?

I don't have the books in front of me, but I feel like I've noticed a few times how the glossary repeats bits of... maybe not misinformation, but incomplete information. Just like the frequent RJ passages talking about how stories twist as they spread, I feel like the glossary is sometimes (purposefully) made a bit flawed.

After all, why else include the notes on the calendar in front of every glossary? My take is that RJ was trying to make the glossary feel more like an appendix to a history tome, with all the attendant misinterpretations.

So, to get back to the point, it didn't seem incongruous to me to have the glossary "confirm" the boys' naive notions of what Warders do. But maybe that's just me, eh?
Alice Arneson
219. Wetlandernw
msmcdon @218 - Well, actually, the glossary didn't confirm the boys' idea. They had this notion that what Warders do is guard the Blight and fight Trollocs (without reference to Aes Sedai); the glossary clearly states that Warders are "those warriors bonded to Aes Sedai."

Still, the question of the accuracy of the glossaries is valid. RJ said quite clearly that the BBoBA is not entirely accurate, but reflects the beliefs/understanding of the "historians" who were compiling it. I've always assumed the glossaries were accurate, but mostly because it never occurred to me that they might not be. There are several places where they quite clearly say things like "it is believed" or "they assume" or the like, indicating that the belief or assumption might not be quite correct.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Like I said - I never really considered that they might be deliberately misleading.
Thomas Keith
220. insectoid
Blocksmith @215: Don't worry, you're not the only one getting the big error messages. I've let Torie know about it, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see if they go away. ;)

Bzzz™.

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