Tue
May 11 2010 2:50pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Path of Daggers, Part 6

Greetings, and welcome back to the Wheel of Time Re-read!

Today’s entry’s gonna be a short one, for which I trust the phrase “helping a friend move into a fifth-floor walkup apartment” is more than adequate explanation. Also, ow.

Ergo, today’s entry covers Chapter 9 of The Path of Daggers, in which I accuse us all of secretly being dirty, dirty monarchists. The nerve of me!

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of information regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And now, the post!

Chapter 9: Tangles

 

What Happens
The next morning, Perrin actually shivers a little while dressing, though he thinks he must be imagining it. Faile sends her new servants in to clean the tent as soon as he comes out; Perrin is pleased that Maighdin and Breane don’t curtsy to him, but Lini is not pleased at all. Faile heads off with Balwer and Gill. The camp is stirring, and Perrin notes Grady and Neald off to the side practicing sword forms, which he thinks is better than their evening practice, which obviously involves saidin even if no one ever sees anything. Perrin tries to get his own breakfast, but Flann Barstere brings him porridge with profuse apologies for being late. Perrin sighs and heads to the Two Rivers section of the camp (Aram in inevitable tow), where he makes a point of saying a word or two to each man, and making sure they’re keeping themselves in good repair, even though their gestures of obeisance make him grind his teeth.

It was very strange. Having Mistress Luhhan or his mother tell him he needed new boots or his breeches mended had always been embarrassing, and he was sure he would have been irritated at the same from anybody else, but from grizzled old Jondyn Barran on down, the Two Rivers men just said “Why, right you are, Lord Perrin; I’ll see to it straight away” or some such. He caught a number of them grinning at one another when he moved on. And they smelled pleased! When he rooted a clay jar of pear brandy out of Jori Congar’s saddlebags […], Jori gave him a wide-eyed look and spread his hands as if he did not know where the jar had come from. But as Perrin walked on, emptying the brandy onto the ground, Jori laughed, “You can’t put anything over on Lord Perrin!” He sounded proud! Sometimes, Perrin thought he was the only sane person left.

The men do not miss the fact that Perrin hasn’t ordered the banners to come down for once; he watches the speculation grow among them and hopes it was the right choice. He thinks of checking on his horses, but when he looks toward the horse lines he sees three of the farriers looking at him anxiously, and thinks of how they freak out if tries to do anything with Stepper or Stayer. To his surprise, Aram suddenly pipes up to tell him that they think a lord who looks after his own horses does so because he doesn’t trust his farriers, and it embarrasses them as well. Perrin thinks that Faile had said the same thing, but that he hadn’t really believed her, and growls in frustration. He meets up with Basel Gill, who tells him that the Lady Faile is sending him (and Tallanvor and Lamgwin) into town for supplies. Perrin asks why Balwer isn’t going; Balwer appears and tells him that he is to be Perrin and Faile’s secretary, and then pointedly kicks Gill out of the conversation. Gill leaves reluctantly, and Balwer then tells Perrin that he can offer other services as well; he understands that Perrin has had some difficulties with the Children, and Balwer knows a “surprising” amount about them. Perrin answers that it would be better if Balwer knew about the Seanchan or the Prophet, and to his surprise Balwer tells him that he does not think the Seanchan have moved beyond Amador yet, and the Prophet was most recently seen in a town called Abila. He smells very pleased with himself, and Perrin assumes he is trying to build up his own importance. He thanks Balwer politely and turns away, but Balwer stops him and warns him not to underestimate the Children.

“They are much closer than the Seanchan. Eamon Valda, the new Lord Captain Commander, led most of their numbers toward northern Amadicia before Amador fell. He was hunting the Prophet, also, my Lord. Valda is a dangerous man, and Rhadam Asunawa, the Grand Inquisitor, makes Valda seem pleasant. And I fear neither has any love for your own Lord. Forgive me.” He bowed again, hesitated, then went on smoothly. “If I may say so, my Lord’s display of Manetheren’s banner is inspired. My Lord will be more than a match for Valda and Asunawa, if he takes care.”

Balwer heads off, and Perrin decides he must have a grudge of some kind against the Whitecloaks, though he is impressed that Balwer had divined the purpose behind the banners. Gill, Maighdin, Lini and Tallanvor have been watching this exchange with worry, and Perrin supposes they are concerned that Balwer was disparaging them in confidence. He tells Aram to go talk to them and casually mention what Balwer actually said to Perrin; Aram is reluctant, but when he finds out Perrin is going to the Aiel camp, agrees with little reluctance to stay behind. Perrin is not very enthused about going to see the Wise Ones himself, and instead wanders over to the Mayener camp first. Havien Nurelle and most of the officers come running, nervous about why he’s there, and Perrin (who doesn’t really have a reason) tells them he’s just looking around. They follow him, wincing whenever he comes upon a perceived flaw, but Perrin thinks the camp looks in near-perfect order to him. Feeling foolish, he rushes through the camp, leaving confusion behind him. Nurelle even more nervously brings up the fact that he’s seen the two Aes Sedai doing chores, and possibly overheard them being punished, and wants to know if Perrin will check on them. Perrin is not at all enthused about the idea, but says he will. Then Nurelle mentions that he heard Perrin let the Red Eagle stay; Perrin is startled at how quickly word got around, but tries to drop a few hints to encourage the cover story. Then he realizes that every last person in the Mayener camp is watching him with their officers, wondering what he was saying.

Raising his voice enough to carry, he said, “The Winged Guards will do Mayene proud if we ever face another Dumai’s Wells.” Those were the first words that came to mind, but he winced at saying them.

To his shock, shouting rose straight away among the soldiers, cheering, “Perrin Goldeneyes!” and “Mayene for Goldeneyes!” and “Goldeneyes and Manetheren!” Men danced and capered, and some snatched lances from the stacks to shake them so the red streamers waved in the breeze. Grizzled bannermen watched them with arms folded, nodding approval. Nurelle beamed, and not only him. Officers with gray in their hair and scars on their faces grinned like boys praised at their lessons. Light, he was the only sane man left! He prayed never to see another battle!

He heads to the Aiel camp, where Sulin comes over and congratulates him for no longer making the Wise Ones come to him; that hadn’t been Perrin’s intention in avoiding them, but he just tells Sulin he wants to see Edarra about the Aes Sedai. Sulin drily revises her opinion of his lack of foolishness.

Turning, she paused. “Tell me something. Teryl Wynter and Furen Alharra are close to Seonid Traighan—like first-brothers with a first-sister; she does not like men as men—yet they offered to take her punishment for her. How could they shame her so?”

Perrin is speechless; Sulin supposes he is shocked for the same reason she is, and disappointed, shows him to the Wise Ones tent. Inside, he is dismayed to find all six Wise Ones waiting for him. As soon as he is seated, Edarra immediately renews their previous argument, that Perrin must kill Masema; the dreamwalkers have seen that he is a danger to the Car’a’carn, and therefore must die. Perrin answers that if they could just give him an idea of what kind of danger, it would help; he certainly agrees Masema is crazy, but it will not help Rand’s cause to go around killing people who are on his own side. Edarra dismisses this as irrelevant, and Perrin changes the subject to Seonid and Masuri, pointing out that showing Rand has Aes Sedai loyal to him is not helped by people seeing them be beaten; the Wise Ones tell him it is none of his business, and then Edarra tells Seonid to stop eavesdropping and come in. Seonid enters and stiffly asks permission to speak to Perrin; upon receiving it, she tells him angrily that he will forget what he’s seen and heard, and stay out of it. Perrin grows angry and shouts back at her.

“Don’t you know these women would as soon cut your throat as look at you? Slit your throat and leave you by the side of the road! Well, I promised myself I wouldn’t let that happen! I don’t like you, but I promised to protect you from the Wise Ones, or the Asha’man, or Rand himself, so come down off that high horse!”

Seonid is even more outraged, but Edarra shuts her up, and Janina asks in amazement why he thinks they want to kill her. Perrin can’t explain about what he smelled, but answers he knows how they feel about Aes Sedai since Dumai’s Wells. Shocked, Nevarin tells him that Wise Ones do not kill apprentices; the Car’a’carn may not have meant it literally when he told them to apprentice the Aes Sedai, but the Wise Ones take it seriously, and they are treated no differently than any other apprentice. Edarra tells Seonid to tell Perrin her advice concerning Masema, and Seonid tells him she agrees with the Wise Ones; she’s seen what his followers do, and “even a faithful dog must be put down if it begins to foam at the mouth.” Perrin asks how he can even let her in sight of the man now, and points out that she knows that’s not what Rand wants. He asks if Masuri feels the same, and Seonid says she does, and furthermore that her oath to the Dragon Reborn demands that she keep this “animal” from him, both physically and from ruining Rand’s reputation among rulers to be seen embracing him.

“Masuri Sokawa,” Nevarin said calmly, “believes the rabid dog can be leashed and bound so he may be used safely.” For an instant, Seonid looked as surprised as Perrin felt, but she recovered quickly. Outside, she did; her scent was suddenly wary, as if she sensed a trap where she had not expected one.

“She also wishes to fit you for a halter, Perrin Aybara,” Carelle added, even more casually. “She thinks you must be bound also, to make you safe.” Nothing on her freckled face told whether she agreed.

Edarra then kicks a frustrated Seonid out, and the Wise Ones tell Perrin if he wishes to put a rabid animal next to the Car’a’carn, he’ll have to convince them. Perrin briefly considers making a run for it, but grimly settles down to argue his case.

Commentary
This chapter is something of an analogue to the chapter “A Different Dance” in LOC, where we got to see a “slice of life” of Mat and the Band. Although Mat is admittedly having something of a better time in that chapter than Perrin is in this, I like both chapters for pretty much the same reasons: both of them show how, in different ways, both Mat and Perrin have grown to be Leaders of Men. Whether they admit it or not.

Of course, Perrin is being a bit more emo about it than Mat (try to contain your shock), but I still very much enjoyed the details of his interactions with his men, and how their responses to him show what kind of person he is much more accurately than his own picture of himself does. (Especially the Mayeners, who are much more reliably responding that way in a genuine fashion, as opposed to the Duopotamians, who could conceivably be acting out of hometown loyalty, even though I think it’s pretty clearly more than that.)

Something that is both believable and frustrating about Perrin (well, many of Our Heroes, actually, but Perrin takes it to an extreme) is the slowness with which he can bring himself to accept something that runs counter to the way he thinks things should be. Which is why he’s still yelling at people not to call him “Lord Perrin” about three hundred years after he should have given it up as a bad job, and more importantly is why he still refuses (at this point) to understand why he’s continually at cultural loggerheads with his wife.

Frustrating, most definitely, but I can’t entirely blame him for it. Anyone who hasn’t been living under a rock their entire life has had the experience of running into beliefs/attitudes/opinions that are so contrary to their own that simply accepting that the other person actually thinks or feels that way is incredibly difficult, much less admitting that that view may have as much validity as your own—or at least that your not accepting the other viewpoint is not likely to do much to change it.

Although, if everyone believed that last bit, we’d still have slavery and no voting rights for women, just for example, so I dunno. And actually, the viewpoints in conflict here (feudalism vs. more-or-less-egalitarianism), is a contest where in the real world, the side Perrin’s fighting against (feudalism) has lost, resoundingly.

A whole discussion could be had, then, over whether Perrin is actually right to stick to his guns in refusing to buy into the whole lord/underling thing, and if so, why no one in the readership seems to agree. Maybe this is an over-generalization, but it’s certainly my read that the fans at large almost universally want him to just accept it, from either an expedience/plot motion standpoint or (perhaps) a vicarious wish-fullfillment thing. But it’s interesting that we all seem to feel this way, considering that most if not all WOT readers live in some form of modern republic state that either expressly or tacitly rejects this very feudal mindset—and that most of us (I’d venture to guess) are pretty okay with that.

And yet, we all want Perrin (and Mat, and Rand) to just shut up and be lords (or kings) already. Veddy interestink, no?

Anyway. Other notes on this chapter:

Balwer: Still one of the cooler minor characters in WOT, and one I was glad to see found a way to still be relevant after Niall was killed. Perrin initially underestimates him here (understandably, I think), but I do think he’s right that Balwer’s main motivation in throwing his loyalty so thoroughly to Perrin is for revenge. It’s just revenge against Valda (and Asunawa) in particular, instead of the Children in general (as Perrin thinks). Valda being among the frontrunners for Largest Tool in Randland, this is a gameplan I can get behind.

Aram: His insight about the farriers may not be the absolute last time he does anything useful for Perrin, but I can’t recall anything else offhand to supplant it. Blargle. We’ll see, I suppose.

Seonid: I’m kind of eyebrow-raisy about what Sulin said regarding Seonid, which is that she “does not like men as men.” I don’t recall ever noticing this comment before, but it certainly caught my eye this time around. Are we supposed to infer from this that Seonid is gay?

Not that this is a problem—quite the opposite, in fact; I’m thrilled, actually, to finally find a non-evil gay character in WOT, even if in such an oblique manner that you’ll miss it if your eye twitches while reading that paragraph—if, in fact, that’s what Sulin meant.

If that is what she meant, though, I’m just a tad puzzled as to how exactly Sulin would know this. I’m just having trouble buying that either Seonid or Masuri would have been in the habit of confiding their personal romantic profiles to Sulin. Or any other Aiel. Or, actually, anyone not Aes Sedai. And probably not most of them, either. So how did Sulin know, if that’s what she meant?

Well. Possibly, of course, that isn’t what she meant at all, and was just saying that Seonid wasn’t interested in romance, full stop (though this implies rather heteronormative bias on Sulin’s part, heh).

*shrug* Or, maybe her gaydar is just that good. Who knows.

Wise Ones: Oh, if only Perrin had listened to you on this one, ladies (and Seonid, who actually makes a very good point re: Rand's reputation). Alas, the killin’ o’ Masema is a long, long, long way in our futures. Le sigh.


And here’s where we part ways for the nonce, chickadees. Be as excellent as always to each other in the comments, and party on until Friday!

192 comments
Captain Hammer
2. Randalator
Sometimes, Perrin thought he was the only sane person left.


Boy, is that going to change or WHAT? *headdesk*


re: feudalism vs. democracy

Apart from where it is only a case of "Lord almighty, just fulfill your destiny already!", it could also be argued that in Perrin's case he's been elected into office by unanimous decision (well, minus one; but Perrin's vote doesn't count). As long as his peeps reserve the right to declare suckage on him and stop the obeying, I'm cool.

The same goes for Mat's general generality. He came, he badassed, he leads...grudgingly.


re: gaydar

From my own experience, being around gays will do wonders for your gaydar. Right to the point where you see someone for the very first time and you're like "Yep. Gay." whereas everyone else in the room doesn't have the slightest clue. And still you're right at least 95% of the time.

So, Sulin. Warriors, sexy loneliness, bonding, see Spartans, yadda yadda yadda...of course she is equipped with a Gaydar 3000 Deluxe...
Lsana
3. Lsana
I'm not sure how universal the desire is to see Perrin become a Lord. I like him, I (okay, well I used to) respect him, and I think he makes a great leader (or perhaps once made a great leader before the PLOD started). I'd much rather have him be Mayor Perrin than Lord Perrin, mostly because of the way him being their "Lord" turns the rest of the Duopotamians into a bunch of wusses who can't tie their own boots without Perrin's instructions.
Noneo Yourbusiness
4. Longtimefan
Something that struck me in the re-read is that Seonid says to Perrin that Masuri feels the same about Massema being killed but then Nevarin says that Masuri believes that he can be leashed and used safely making Seonid a touch surprised.

Is this a clue or just a misunderstanding?

Could Seonid be surprised because her statement may be seen as a lie (dun dun duuuun!) or perhaps that Masuri may have lied to Seonid (DUN!)

Or there was just a standard Aes Sedai word game playing out between the Masuri, Seonid and the Wise Ones.

As for the "not liking men as men" comment. Maybe Sulin is just surprised that for having two warders she does not show the same interest that Aiel would in an Aiel way. Then again Seonid may be one of the few secret lesbians that are sprinkled through the later books as the readership started asking where all the gays were.

Not to say that they were put in because the readership mentioned the lack of the gay. Certainly they were planned to be in the story from the very beginning.
Kerwin Miller
5. tamyrlink
aiel being perceptive like they are i just figured Sulin had noticed Seonid giving some other females the eye and not giving any males the eye.
what with how the aiel all seem to know each other and can tell clan, hold, and society from the cut of their cadin'sor a gaydar must be a cultural thing.

i found it interesting that Sulin wouldnt understand the AS/Warder relationship and couldnt see that is why they would offer to take her punishments. to keep seonid from the pain and the humiliation (because warders are just as sticky about AS dignity and what not as the AS themselves are)
j p
6. sps49
Agree with tamyrlink's 1st para @5. Or that Seonid sees her Warders as "just friends", not potential booty calls.

Perrin has been unanimously chosen as Head Executive (especially General) of the Two Rivers, and possibly Legislator as weel, but I haven't seen any indication of that. His new citizens wouldn't want him to be the mayor because he would not be equal to the other lords, Firsts, Daughter-Heirs, etc. cluttering up the landscape. He's doing well, but if his heir is more of a Weiramon than a Perrin 2, that could change.

EDIT: Oh, and Balwer is also an unemployed intelligence chief with not many openings available. He has had a day to suss out Perrin and decide whether he wants to apply for the Combined Task Force S-2 job.
Lsana
7. Seamus1602
Re: Perrin's kingship vs. Democracy

Maybe this is too technical, but a democracy is based upon instituions, of which none exist in Randland. These instituions can exist, but they haven't been created yet (and the democratic core value of individual liberty is not yet recognized as a value - see general Randland reaction to damane). As such, democracy has no foundation to build on in current Randland and is impossible for our characters short-term.

On the other hand, a king is not a bad idea when you (or we) know a great deal of the character of a potential king. In short, we want the Tav 3 to become kings cause we know they're good people who will take care of their subjects (until they go crazy and True Power-happy, but, hey, everybody's got a weakness!

Re: Sulin's gaydar

I've always thought that Sulin would know this because Seonid has been with one of the maidens at this point. I'm not sure if an AS would do that as an apprentice, but icould certainly see a maiden being forward enough to bring it up. In the end, I'm not sure but I think Sulin had some direct knowledge of Seonid's preferences.
Lannis .
8. Lannis
Valda being among the frontrunners for Largest Tool in Randland... I think this might be an understatement. :|

Seonid: The "does not like men as men" thing stuck out to me, too. But I'm wondering how much of Sulin's remark is that Seonid's two Warders are obviously loyal to her, strong men (and perhaps romantically interested?), and Seonid just isn't into them. Who knows...

As for Sulin, she's frakking awesome, so I'm actually liable to believe that yes, her gaydar is Just That Good! Ha!

Randalator @2: BAHAHahhahaha... you sir, are entertaining!

Thanks for the post, Leigh! Have a, erm, fun time helping your friend move? Yeah, good luck... hope it all goes (or went, as the case may be) smoothly.
Marcus W
9. toryx
I'm with Lsana @ 3. I'd rather he were mayor or governor or something than the Lord of the Two Rivers. And I really, really don't want to see him crowned a king.

But that's not so much because of any democratic fervor as it's just not right for his character, I don't think. He's just the kind of guy who would be a great representative for a democratic government. He doesn't want the job, he doesn't seek power and he's happy to stick with the things he knows.

And contrary to his inability to have a useful conversation with his wife, he seems to be more comfortable discussing solutions than coming up with them and forcing them on people. Well, this far, anyway. That'll change soon enough.

Given how wrong the Aiel usually are about Wetlanders, I think the Sulin is wrong. She's making the assumption that Seonid is gay only because Seonid has no physical relationship (that Sulin can see) with her warders.

So I suspect, though there's no telling whether I'm right or wrong on that one.
Lsana
10. Subbak
I agree on the Lord Perrin vs Mayor Perrin thing (the beginning of tFoH is insightful on that). However, the "Lord" status has a lot of advantages in a world that is, whether the characters want it or not, ruled by feudalism.

Mat's attitude as a general, however, is totally cool even from a modern point of view. He never stopped anyone from leaving his army, which is not what you get in an actual modern army where desertion can have pretty nasty consequences.

re: non-evil homosexuals characters, I don't know why everyone wants Moraine to be bi, but in my opinion she's exclusively lesbian until proven otherwise.
Captain Hammer
11. Randalator
Longtiimefan @4

Could Seonid be surprised because her statement may be seen as a lie (dun dun duuuun!) or perhaps that Masuri may have lied to Seonid (DUN!)

I think it's just another case of Morbus Aes Sedai.

Seonid: "Masema is dangerous, he must be killed!"
Masuri: "No, I believe that bound and controlled he could still be of use."
Seonid: "But what if he's not? What if he proves uncontrollable?"
Masuri: "Then he must be killed, eventually."

And a little while later with Perrin we have an Aes Sedai blatantly lying through omission. But most embarassingly she got called out on it almost immediately...


Subbak @10

re: non-evil homosexuals characters, I don't know why everyone wants Moraine to be bi, but in my opinion she's exclusively lesbian until proven otherwise.

Towers of Midnight will probably put an end to that. Go, Thom! *winkwink* *nudgenudge*
j p
12. sps49
Subbak @10-

I dunno, there is some foreshadowing of a Moiraine/Thom relationship. Me, I don't "want" her to be anything except AWESOME.
Mikey Bennett
13. EvilMonkey
I think Seonid was surprised she said it because she wasn't intending to reveal that particular tidbit of info and it got ta'verned outta her.

I think we want Perrin to lead because its inevitable. The pattern seems to have gotten it only half right with the Perrin pick however. His awesomeness, both on the battlefield and leadership department cannot be denied, yet the personality tendencies....lets just say leave much to be desired. When did the most mighty wolf king become Hamlet of all people? When TEOTW started it seemed that Perrin was the one most equipped to accept his own destiny, to be tied to Big Chief Rand, to be a wolfman, to be a key member of the last battle. Rand was running away and Mat was sick and doing his best to run away too. Yet Faile turns the guy's brains to mush and I am afraid that if she dies the third leg in the tripod is gonna go catatonic.

I really hope that in ToM Perrin gets this soul searching thing done with so he can stop being a liability to Team Light.

Shadowkiller
Sharon E.
14. Sulin
Yay, another chapter! I really enjoyed this chapter for the insight it gave us into day-to-day camp life and Perrin's interactions with his followers. I do miss the old Perrin though, I hope we see him again in ToM...

Re Perrin- He really should've listened to the WO and offed Masema at the earliest opportunity. Sigh...

Re Sulin's gaydar- I'm just very observant. ;)
Ben Frey
15. BenPatient
does Sulin know what she knows because someone or another has been Dreamwalking all over the AS "apprentices"?
Captain Hammer
16. Randalator
BenPatient @15

I don't remember WOs being that gossipy, especially concerning their dream spying.

Which isn't spying at all, mind you, because Aiel don't spy and WOs doubly so, thank you very much. Now go to sleep already, puny Wetlander, we need to know what you're planning.
Lsana
17. veins of gold
i ,for one ,alweys felt sad that the two rivers who did fine witout a lord are getting one
Tony Zbaraschuk
18. tonyz
Perrin's interactions with Balwer are one of the few fun threads in That Long Plotline ahead of us. I like Balwer, a lot. Competent guy.

Perrin's very competent, too -- even his instincts drive him to do the right things for his leadership position. It's just his personal life that has amazingly nasty upsets.
Lsana
19. Lsana
@7 Seamus1602,

The thing is that a democratic tradition did exist in the Two Rivers prior to the start of the series. It's not the same as any modern democratic institution, but it did seem to have a strong concept of limited authority and respect for individual rights. Then the whole "Lord Perrin" business started and it all seemed to fall apart. These people who used to believe in self-reliance and the whole "if the light doesn't will, we'll get by anyway" now can't do anything without running it by their "Lord."
Lsana
20. Megaduck
Randalator @ 2

I'm going to agree about the feudalism vs. democracy. Perrin was pretty much elected.

I would also say this is about responsibility. Perrin has a responsibility to these people, he's in command regardless of what he thinks about it. I don't care if he calls himself Lord or General but I do want him to at least acknowledge that he has responsibility here.

At the same time, I do sympathize with him wanted to be able to just get his own bowl of porridge for once. All those people pushing around must be stifling.
James Hogan
21. Sonofthunder
I like Perrin being awesome and everyone seeing him as such. I like him as a Great Captain and everyone treating him accordingly. I don't like him being arbitrarily handed the title of "Lord of the Two Rivers" or "Lord of Manetheren" or "Lord of the-Andor-that's-not-Andor" - mostly because, like veins of gold@17, the people of Emond's Field, etc, were doing just fine without a Lord - then Perrin gets handed the title and all his old friends are now his servants and he's not allowed to sit down and have a drink with them. Lame.

The whole period in what was it, beginning of TFoH? The time when he was in his "Lord's house" and Faile was holding court and making Perrin hear people's cases? I thought that was really dumb and was not pleased. So that's my thoughts on the "Lord" business...seems similar to others here.

But, I did like this chapter merely for the fact of seeing how much everyone else loves Perrin. Much better than the chapter a few books down the road where everyone hates him because they think he slept with Berelain...one of my least favorite chapters ever.
Pritesh Patil
22. MatHornsounder
Hahahahahahahaha
seonid doesnt like men as men!!!!
hahhahahahaahaha


Lsana @ 19 : agree with you totally!!


Perrin needs to come into his own soon and get his wolf powers maxed up to be useful at TG!

oh, btw

WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING WHO'S GAY AND WHO'S STRAIGHT???????????

its not as if Berelain is coming to meet me!

*Doorbell rings, a wind blows, music plays

erm...uh...gotta get that people, see you tomorrow!!
:P:D
Theresa Gray
23. Terez27
I think we accept feudalism in WoT - particularly to the point of just wanting Perrin to accept it - because it's obviously a part of the world that's not going to go away. We've got major characters as rulers, and the Empire descending.

We also have a contrast between rulers like Elaida - who believes she IS the law - and Morgase, who taught Elayne that even the queen must obey the law she makes or there IS no law (ignoring her temper tantrums after she escaped Rahvin, Morgase seemed to be a pretty balanced queen). The reason why feudalism was overthrown in the real world is that the monarchs drew all of the power to themselves, sparing no concern for the common man (in contrast to Andor's feeding the hungry or Egeanin's soup kitchens), or the rest of the nobility either. If not for the last, the common man might still be oppressed in the 'first world', but the nobility was not about to put up with that. Then there is the industrial revolution to consider; a similar revolution could be the end of feudalism in WoT.

However, if Randland is consolidated under Tuon's rule (as seems likely), then maybe not, because the conditions in the Empire aren't all that oppressive, outside of damane and da'covale. Those two things will likely be fixed in the upcoming truce; the damane part anyway. In fact, feudalism seems to lack oppression in most WoT nations. Rand noticed an extreme version of it in Tear, with something actually resembling serfs, but nowhere else that I can think of. But the point is, of course, that there is no real reason to overthrow feudalism if the common man is not being oppressed.
Lucas Vollmer
24. aspeo
To begin with, I don't care one way or the other if Seonid is gay or not. However, as I was reading the comments I was struck by another possibility for what Sulin said.

I wonder if it's just Sulin being unfamiliar with the AS/warder relationship. In the Aiel culture a woman with two men willing to take her punishment for her would probably be married to them, or in a relationship with them.

Seonid doesn't necessarily have to be gay just because she isn't sleeping with her warders, she might just not be interested in them specifically in a physical sense. I don't think it's ever stated explicitly by Seonid that she isn't interested in men.

Just tossing the possibility out there anyways...

P.S. I agree with what some have previously said in this thread about Perrin being a lord. The people of WOT mostly live in a feudal type fantasy setting. This means lords, ladies, kings, and queens. While I'd like to think that ideas of democracy and such will spring up, for now I am rooting for Perrin to accept his lordship. If you want to see it another way, he was pretty much elected by the people through acclamation. I think he is a good leader, and between him and Faile I think they could govern the Two Rivers very well.
Håkan Eriksson
25. h_a_eriksson
Regarding the not so flaunting gayness: I could very much se different senarios where Sulin outright asks Seonid if she is romantically involved with her wardens, and from there (through questioning or reasoning) come to understand that Seonid doesn't sing to the hetero tune.
Theresa Gray
26. Terez27
Concerning Seonid...I think it's pretty obvious that she's a lesbian, just because RJ loves his pillow friends, and I doubt he was trying to be dodgy with that particular piece of evidence. And yes, yay for a real lesbian in WoT (meaning not counting Siuan and Moiraine types that end up with men) that is not a detestable person. Too bad she's not a very developed character.
Barry T
27. blindillusion
Just a thought that may have been thought of before, but if so, I haven’t seen it…

Anyway, if the Aes Sedai are “apprenticed” to the WOs, does that mean they can pull a Sevanna and simply claim they are no longer apprentices, but are full WOs…?

Or perhaps they could even be reasonably thought of as ready by the WOs, a la Aviendha, and say they will no longer be apprentices…and as such be accepted as full Wise Ones?

Not worded well, to be sure, but I have a meeting to go to. Yay Army!

- Sorry, no thoughts on whether or not Sulin is bisexual. =|
Matthew Smith
28. blocksmith
Leigh...shorty but goody. Thanks again.

On Balwer...I originally thought his siding with Morgase and then Perrin was out of revenge for Niall's assassination, but something in Leigh's comments made me think maybe he wants revenge because he was unable to uncover the assassination plot in the first place. What kind of a spymaster allows his master to be killed by factions surrounding his master? Anyway, it's a slight difference in motivation, but potentially a crucial one.

On the desire to have a king...part of the overall frustration that comes through in the books (both stated by characters and expressed by commenters) is that few leaders are working together toward a common goal. Clearly, Perrin and Mat embracing their positions (after having demonstrated their competency)and joining with Rand would generate a world resounding "FINALLY!!!!" amongst the readers.

Not to mention I'm not sure we could stomach a scenario where just as the assembled leaders are about to vote, the Senator from Mass...I meand the Sea Folk rep, demands a new museum to the former Senator from Mass...I mean Mistress of Ships, be built as part of the vote authorizing force against Shayol Ghul.
Lsana
29. eurorandlander
While I liked the bit with the illicit brandy, it made me wonder. In many medieval armies, part of the rations was a set amount of booze. There are a variety of reasons for this, but it was common in Europe. However, we never really hear what the rations are for Randlanders, do we? I didn't think about it during my read through, and was wondering if anyone knows?
Matthew Smith
30. blocksmith
Terez27@23

Wait...didn't Marie Antoinette feed the poor in France cake? No? Ok...I guess you are right.
Mikey Bennett
31. EvilMonkey
@19 Lsana

The Two Rivers were doing fine without a Lord, and they would have continued to if they weren't living in the time of the Last Battle. If they didn't have what amounts to 2 Shadow assassins (Fain and Slayer) and a Brigade of Whitecloaks at their doorstep. They would have been just fine if they didn't have a few thousand Trollocs try to wipe their part of the map out of existence. And with the way the Rivers are growing, gathering outlander refugees from the wars going on all ova the globe, bringing in new ideas and culture shock type stuff, the need for an administrative head and a strong singular vision is necessary, or at the very least fits the world in which this occurs. Someone was going to end up lording it over them regardless, just because of the times they live in. Therefore, this adjustment period where the 2 rivers people try to find out their relationship to a lord and how to act regarding him/her was bound to happen anyway. I for one would rather it be Perrin, at least he has a vested interest and sees the people as more than just tenents on his territory at best and lambs to be slaughtered at worst.
Andrew Belmont
33. rosetintdworld
I'm not sure that I disagree with Perrin's resistance to Lordship. While I certainly can see how Faile's points are valid from the lens of her upbringing, and don't get annoyed with her for claiming that "these people are learning how to treat a Lord," at the same time I share Perrin's frustration with seeing people who clearly know what they are doing asking someone who clearly doesn't for advice. The audience in the LOC Prologue, this segment, and an early chapter in TGS ("Leaving Malden") all show the Duopotamians at their most confused and, to me, at least, irritating. (I recognize that I'm being impatient, and you can feel free to call me out on it.)

RE: Seonid. Several people brought her up as a "positive lesbian" when I was complaining in the Galina thread from LOC. Now that I've re-read the later books, I tend to agree that Seonid is gay. Tarna thinks that "Galina did not like men in that way" in KOD, using exactly the same phrasing, (and I think Moiraine refers to some tower clerks with exactly the same phrase in NS) so I think it's safe to assume it's local parlance and understood to mean one thing and one thing only.
Marcus W
34. toryx
By the way, Leigh...

Helping someone move to a fifth floor walk-up? That's just one step down from helping a friend hide a body. That's taking one for the team, man. Ouch.
Lsana
35. Lsana
@31 EvilMonkey,

Someone else raised the point that Randland doesn't have a democratic tradition, and I pointed out that yes, they do. So it isn't like these are people who don't know anything except bowing to some feudal overlord.

Yes, current circumstances probably dictate the need for a stronger authority, but that could have been handled by "Mayor Perrin" or "Warlord Perrin" or even "Dictator Perrin": Perrin takes temporary emergency powers that he will give up once the crisis has passed, whether that's in a month a year or five years. By endorsing the idea of "Lord Perrin," we're saying that the Two Rivers should give up their independence for the foreseeable future: Perrin has unlimited power over them until he dies, at which point his children take over the power, and so on until someone throws a revolt.

Perrin is probably a good person to trust with that power, given his disinclination to abuse it, but a possible abuse of power is not the only issue with the situation. The other issue is formerly strong, independent people becoming wimps and being eager to give up their own judgment in favor of Perrin's. I would like to see at least one Duopotamian say, "Y'know, I'll help man the walls, and I'll fight when you say, but its none of your !@#$! business how I thatch my roof. Tell your busybody wife to stay out of my affairs."
Janet Hopkins
36. JanDSedai
re: Perrin's lordship
Yes, the Two Rivers did well with out a lord up until now, but the only contact they had with the outside world was the annual peddlar, merchant caravans, and the stray gleeman. And Tam, who tried to forget what he saw in the Wide World of War. But with renewed contact with other lands, the duopotamians will need more representation that just individual mayors.

I think the duopotamians subconsciously recognize the need for someone to lead their villages through the wars and rumours of war; someone who has first-hand knowledge of the events shaping the end of an Age. They feel their lack of experience with outsiders, and would gladly leave the hard decisions to one who is demonstrably able to make these decisions.

So when Perrin steps up and tells others what they should be doing, it relieves them, and makes them proud that one of their own has enough knowledge to take charge. Perrin (and by extension, the reader) takes this knowledge for granted, but from the point of view of the insular Two Rivers, it is a welcome thing.
James Jones
37. jamesedjones
Re: Futileism vs dEmocracy

I've got to agree with Churchill on this debate. I vote at least once a year, and it never seems to accomplish anything productive.

At least Feudalism does something. But I'd hate to be subject to someone controlling my life (other than the police, management, politicians, bureaucrats, etc). *sigh*
Ron Garrison
38. Man-0-Manetheran
In times of danger, natural leaders emerge. There are those who can't just sit by and do nothing, so they begin. Others recognize that their action makes sense and join them, then more and more subscribe to the cause. A really strong and successful and effective leader gains the trust and respect of the populace. And to feel safe going forward, the natural desire is to proclaim this person: Leader, Lord, King.

Perrin is this archtype (with a lot of self-effacing reluctance thrown in for modern sensibilities). In the heroic story, this is an almost required character. In his masterful way, RJ rounded Perrin out with a lordly wife and other complications and demands. So we have The Reluctant Good Lord character and his symbolic banners.

I think it interesting that A LOT of fantasy fiction contains lords and kings and queens as well as wizards to save the day. It's almost like we have this cellular desire for a Good King to make things right and just. I think that is why we as readers are so anxious for Perrin to just accept this role. Vicariously we become part of his band. We want to cheer him, but as readers we are burdened with knowing his angst - which puts us in the uncomfortable place of feeling the call to leadership but not wanting it as well. Pretty darn good writing, RJ.
James Hogan
39. Sonofthunder
I suppose I'll cede the point that a Lord/Ruler wouldn't be that bad as the Two Rivers starts interacting more with the outside world - I still dislike the way Perrin being forced forward as Lord makes the Two Rivers folks look so dumb in comparison. I don't mind Perrin looking smart and decisive...as long as it doesn't make everyone else in the TR look like indecisive fools.
Noneo Yourbusiness
40. Longtimefan
As to Perrin being Lord or King or whatever non elected heiretical title he may hold now or in the future. For me it is not so much that I prefer a feudal system over a democratic one as much as in the storyline it seems that the Pattern intends Perrin to hold a certain title and sway as hinted to in the viewing Min had about the broken crown and in the Seanchan Prophecies about the "Wolf King" (which I always took as King who communicates with wolves instead of King of the Wolves.)

The Pattern (because of the Author and thereby the readership) sees Perrin becoming a leader of men and in the current political structure that means Lord if not King. (Mayor is not as influential; in a Pattern sort of way.)

I do not think most people are "Go Lord Perrin!" because of a deep seating longing for the times of yore and the fantasy of princes and princesses but from a very well laid storyline that pretty much indicates great and terrible things for Perrin and being a Lord is one of them.

Then again I may be the only one and everyone else is a Royalist just waiting for the day the world will return to its rightful place under the benevolent thumb of the British Empire and his Imperial Majesty King William, may he live forever.
T C
41. Freelancer
Hi Leigh,

Artie Johnson reference, FTW! (Curious that the complete phrase was often "Veddy insterestink; but shtupid!")

Yes, we all prefer our benevolent monarchies to representative republics in our fantasy reading. Not surprising at all.

About Seonid. Just because Sulin can detect that she isn't romantically inclined toward men doesn't indicate that she is toward women. More likely she is simply not romantically inclined at all. When considering the more likely conclusion in a case like this, consider the author. Would he have Sulin be one with such a refined sense of another's inclinations in the romance department? Not terribly plausible, as Sulin is the ultimate Maiden of the Spear, and even if she isn't asexual, she isn't very romantically inclined herself. I don't like the term gaydar, I prefer flame detector.


Subbak@10

Moiraine's behavior with Siuan was an issue of compatibility and empathy, not natural inclination. In New Spring, and in the early volumes, there is frequent mention of their intentions toward marriage to men. Moiraine's semi-veiled comment to the girls in Tear that she knows the face of the man she is going to marry, her cryptic courtship dance and later letter to Thom, all show that her romantic inclination is not aimed at women. Her jealousy toward Nynaeve over Lan isn't 100% exclusive of romantic thoughts.


Randalator@11

I agree with your scenario that Seonid misrepresented Masuri's true opinion, while saying no word that wasn't true.
Tim Cottrell
42. Wolfbrother87
From what has been said here, and in other places, and the fact that apparently no-one went to Jordan Con as him, i have one thing to say:

Am i the only one who doesn't hate 'emo' Perrin?

I think that i like him mostly cos i can see myself reacting in a very similar way to all of this. Plus He's a Wolfbrother (image) which is just pure awesome in my eyes.

Wolfbrother out!
Rob Munnelly
43. RobMRobM
@42. I like Perrin very much in these chapters. Interesting observation of Leigh to juxtapose this chapter with the Mat chapter in LOC. Very similar.

@41. Free - despite the name, many if not most Maidens appear to be very sexual. (Remember Maiden's Kiss?) They just don't want to get married to their lovers and be forced to leave the troops.
James Hogan
44. Sonofthunder
Wolfbrother87@42, I like Perrin in this storyline!! He does act very understandably and he does make decisions and get things done. Sure he's about to become half-crazed with grief(in the next few books), but even then, I'm sure I would act the same if my wife had been taken from me - in the upcoming Perrin/Faile/Shaido plotline, Perrin's POVs are heartbreaking and understandable. Even though I don't quite agree with his seeming willingness to serve the Dark One if it would free Faile, his passion echoes in my heart. I just very much dislike all the Faile/Shaido POVs. Grr. I've always liked Perrin, as I see myself as much more similar to him than to either Rand or Mat.
Hugh Arai
45. HArai
Megaduck@20:
I would also say this is about responsibility. Perrin has a responsibility to these people, he's in command regardless of what he thinks about it. I don't care if he calls himself Lord or General but I do want him to at least acknowledge that he has responsibility here.


You can't just abdicate your responsibility to think for yourself in favor of following someone else and then claim he's irresponsible for not telling you what to do. How could Perrin be anything but unhappy watching people he's seen acting independently all his life stop doing so?

He didn't get elected, he got volunteered. There is a difference. Give him credit, he steps up and does the job.
Tim Cottrell
46. Wolfbrother87
Welcome Brother RobM

Welcome Brother Sonofthunder

Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwww!
Sam Mickel
47. Samadai
wolfbrother87@42
I am a Perrin fan through all the books. As for his "emo"ness, does anyone doubt that Rand or Mat would "make a deal with the Dark One" to save their loved ones. In Fact Rand did just that to save Min. He made his deal and looked what it turned him into, a man that cares about nothing trying to save everything. Does anyone doubt that Mat would not do anything to save Tuon?
Tim Cottrell
48. Wolfbrother87
Welcome Brother Samadai

@47

Mat was has been able to leave 'Tuon' (can't remember her new name) to do what she has to do, and gone and fulfilled the promises he has made. he hasn't let his love compromise who he is, which Perrin is in danger of doing if he doesn't sort things out with Faiel (sp).

It is entirely possible that he will, and the realism of it all means I cannot hate him for what i haven't been through.

Wolfbrother Out!
Thomas Keith
49. insectoid
Sorry I'm late to the party; was catching up on some intense eyelid study. ;) (It's been really chaotic around here these last couple weeks, and a lot of hard work. Still a couple weeks to go, though. ::sigh::)

Great post as always Leigh!

"Slice of life": I've always thought that these kinds of chapters were interesting, though the one with Mat was much more entertaining. ;) As for Emo Perrin... Just accept that you're a lord and move on, huh?

Balwer: Is pretty awesome for a minor character.

Seonid: Er... I'm gonna punt on this one, as I don't recall reading anything obviously gay about her character.

Wise Ones re: Masema: Too bad Masema doesn't get offed for a long long while; much trouble could have been avoided (with Aram, for example)!

Bzzz™.
Lsana
50. chaplainchris
@3 Lsana - I'd never actually realized that PLotline Of Doom could be shortened as PLOD. How appropriate!

@7 democracy - does not require institutions as you suggest, simply a vote. Perhaps a republic requires these institutions...true democracy can be much simpler (though generally smaller as a result - i.e. ancient Athens vs. modern U.S.A.).

@34 re: Leigh taking one for the team by helping the friend with the 5th floor move - listen to this, Leigh! I mean, is it really worth having friends who interfere with my re-read?!? Um...I mean, who cause such hardship? See, I'm concerned about you. Not selfish on my part, nope. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

Re: Aiel dreamwalking and spying on Aes Sedai - the AS all guard their dreams, as Moiraine did, or so I've always understood. They're not dreamwalkers, but they know the weave of Spirit to guard their dreams - or so Moiraine implies in TEOTW.

Re: feudalism vs. egalitarianism - I think it's about leadership more than the titles. At least, when Rand literally became a king in ACOS, I wasn't all happy and wish-fulfilledy (?). I was more "oh crap he's totally bonkers now isn't he?" Oh, I suppose like most Americans I am fascinated a bit by the trappings of feudalism. But what I'm lookign for is not for the guys (or the gals) in WOT to get titles; I want them to frickin' LEAD already!

Rand's arc in TGH (bk 2) is very similar to what Perrin and Mat have been going through in later books - being treated as a leader, because you are one, even if you don't see it. In these circumstances, emo-ness (how can *I* possibly lead) and irresponsibility (why would I *want* to lead) are frustrating. Randland so badly needs leadership! And the plot so badly needs to advance! So you people hurry up and accept that you are leaders!

I think it's similar to what you've said before, Leigh, about the satisfaction in seeing competent people be competent. But I also think there's a deep hunger (certainly among us westerners) for competent, trustworthy leadership. I remember seeing "Air Force One" with Harrison Ford as president - an ok movie, but I was absolutely shocked by my visceral reaction to the portrayal of a president who didn't compromise principle and who did stupid things like insist the people he was responsible for get off the plane before he did. Arguably stupid, definitely unpragmatic, but absolutely inspiring. Egalitarian and democratic or not, I'd follow a leader like that.

And that's the kind of leader that at least some of our crew have the potential to be. Heck, Rand's been trying - worrying about sending humanitarian aid to Tear and Illian and Arad Doman all this time, with everything else going on. One of the heartbreaking parts of TGS, for me, was one he gave up helping Arad Doman and left. It just showed how defeated Rand was.

Anyway.
Lsana
51. chaplainchris
Re: Seonid. Yes, I think that's to be taken that she's not interested in men. I presume, but do not take as proven, that she is therefore interested in women. As someone else said, it might just be that she's not interested in her Warders, and the Aiel cultural blinders make Sulin misunderstand. I think the former (that she's gay) is most likely what's intended, though. As rosetintdworld points out @ 33, it's the same language used for Galina (which I remembered) and for clerks in the Tower (which I'd forgotten, and good catch!).

Something I'd not realized before - I guess this conversation indicates that Masuri wanted Masema bound with the Warder bond? That is what the "leashed and bound" is code for, right? And she thinks Perrin should be Bonded too? Ew.

Also, Masuri being Brown and already having a Warder and all, I guess that means she wants *Seonid* to Bond Masema?!?? No wonder Seonid wants him dead...being bound to that psycho? Ew ew ew spew in my mouth ew.
Tricia Irish
52. Tektonica
Thanks Leigh! Good luck with the moving. At least you won't need to go to the gym for the stairmaster today.

I'm on board with Evilmonkey@31. I don't think the Randlander even have a concept of democracy. They governed themselves well in the quiet backwaters of the Two Rivers with no conflicts or wars or overarching regional "needs."

Now they have Shadowspawn and Whitecloaks and the approach of TG. They need a leader for the "Region". Perrin came back to town and proved to be that guy. Elected. At least he's a local and understands the people and loves them and wants the best for them. It would be nigh near impossible for the individual councils to come to consenus quickly on any emergency, let alone war.

It's a plus that Perrin is a reluctant leader, too. To paraphrase Plato, Those that don't want to govern, should. Those that are anxious to govern, should not.

Balwer is a great character! Smart and hell bent on revenge or needing to expiate his guilt over not smelling out the murder plot in the first place. Another "sneaky" character. In a good way.

Seonid, who cares. Be anything you want or need to be. Live and let live. I do find it odd that the very private Aiel would even mention such a thing.
stephanie keenan
53. adriel_moonstar
Sorry, the vocabulary police have arrived...

Feudalism was a decentralized system of government in which kings were relatively weak. They maintained power by granting land to nobles in return for service, thereby attempting to keep and one noble or group of nobles from gaining too much power. Nobles in turn granted land and privileges to lower levels of society. The entire system ultimately rested on a large population of serfs who were willing (or were forced depending on your point of view) to work the land in return for a place to live.

In real world history the feudal system was not ended by the industrial revolution (except possibly in Russia) but by the Black Death. The swift decline in population caused labor shortages which enabled serfs to break away from the land and work at jobs of their own choosing.

(In Randland, we are told repeatedly of the ongoing population decline, which explains the absence of serfdom and slavery in most areas.)

The rise of strong nation states was tied to strong leaders and was actually aided by the concept of absolute monarchy. (The king is the land, blah blah blah...) THAT was effectively ended by the industrial revolution (although yes, it was questioned before then). But not until it had served it's purpose.

Many of the examples of mainland government in WOT are feudal in nature. (Including the Two Rivers, despite its lack of hereditary leadership.) The borderlands appear to have strong leaders. Everywhere else (including Andor) the rulers seem to depend on factions among the nobles for their power base.

I think the reason that most of us want the boys (and girls) to become rulers, is that we all know enough of history to know that for all it's faults monarchy worked. And you know final battle coming...Strong leaders wanted.
Rob Munnelly
54. RobMRobM
@53. "Help, I'm being repressed!" "Bloody Peasant" (name that movie)

@51. Leashed and bound intended to mean forced bonding? I always assumed that was just a colorful description our local Darkhound obsessed Brown, but... it could mean it, couldn't it? Ew relative to Masema is not the half of it. As to Perrin, Faile would kill them, irrespective of whether Perrin himself might be collateral damage. Having trouble believing this is what Masuri really meant, but it is possible. Ew.

Query whether that's why Masuri is being punished by the Wise Ones. That would certainly explain it more than simple disobedience. Certainly, huge toh if the Wise Ones let them bond Perrin.

@47/48 - All would be well with Mat until Fortouna makes him shave half of his head (as she thinks to herself during TGS).

@46. Welcome back, Bro.

Rob
Jay Dauro
55. J.Dauro
RobM^2 @54
"I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries."

MP&THG FTW
Lsana
56. Lurking Canadian
Count me as one uncomfortable with the Lord Perrin business. I tire of the emo and the Faile obsession, but I was always on Perrin's side about kingship. I can certainly understand that the Two Rivers needs an executive with war powers, since they're at war and will now need a foreign policy. If they want to call him "Lord Perrin" instead of "Mr. President" or "Alpha Wolf" or "Big Giant Head", more power to them. But I've never been comfortable with the social distance Faile insists on and I've always thought it out of character (read: ta've'ren, I guess) that the people of the Two Rivers agree. If their attitude was "Sure, I'll do what he says during battle, but I'm not bowing to him", I'd be much more comfortable.

@23: "because the conditions in the Empire aren't all that oppressive, outside of damane and da'covale."

I rather strongly disagree. Seanchan is a horror chamber from top to bottom. (I've never been able to decide if it is better or worse than the Domination of the Draka. I think worse, because at least the Draka let their slaves kill themselves.) Yes, if you keep your head down, kiss Blood ass at every opportunity and don't piss off a Seeker, it seems to be a reasonably peaceful place to live.

However, the treatment of damane is monstrous. The treatment of da'covale is equally monstrous. (Look at what happened to Suroth. You might thing that's not so bad, because Suroth is The Bad Guy, but then look at what happened to Amathera. Then reflect that da'covale isn't just for your life, it's for the lives of all of your descendants too.) The Seekers are roughly the KGB, with the unquestioned authority to ship anybody to the torture chamber on a whim.

For some reason, Cadsuane talks about Rand's victory being as bad as the Shadow's victory, unless Rand changes. I think she's wrong. It's a Seanchan victory that will make people wish the Dark One had won.
Noneo Yourbusiness
57. Longtimefan
Why Sulin misunderstands Seonid: an explaination in conversation.

Sulin (to other Maidens while Seonid is passing): It is a difficult decision spear sisters. With two men so similar I could start dreaming about Teyrl Wynter's eyebrows and find later that they were Furen Alharra's.

(Maiden's laugh)

Seonid (to Sulin): What are you talking about?

Sulin (internal monolouge) : What a lez.

Scene ends.

So many misunderstandings are based on such cultural differences. If only Seonid understood the innate eyebrow fetish that the Aiel have she could have made a witty and suggestive comment to gain some small respect with Sulin for having a sense of humor.

Apparently she is learning very little as a Wise One's apprentice.

Maybe by now she can tell where a scarf was woven by the flavor. Kind of like wine tasting.
Thomas Keith
58. insectoid
RobM @54/J.Dauro @55: LOL!! The one I remember is the one about the "cheesy lot of second-hand electric donkey bottom biters". ;D

Bzzz™.
John Massey
59. subwoofer
Righto to commenting-

Leigh- I believe we have the tech that lets us dictate to a computer which translates to text. Especially if your arms are sore from box-hauling. Hope you got more than beer and pizza outta the deal.

I first heard the "sir" thing in the army, and it did throw me. Out in the world, the first time I heard "Mr. Woofer" I looked around for me Da and realized the person was talking to me, when I am used to everybody calling me by "Sub". Meh- we get these honorifics as our station in life changes.

Perrin has to learn the importance of inspecting his men. They need it to keep them on their toes. And let your men do their jobs, that is why you have them.

Wise Ones- with the exception of two- I think the WO's are called that for a reason. Take their advice laddy.

Masema- does anyone else feel gyped that Rand does not come along, pop into Masema's living room and say "WTF? I am calling shenanigans. I didn't say to do any of this- donkey. Get your a$$ where it belongs"? Ahhh... maybe it is just me. The guy does bite it in the end.

Woof™.
Eric Hughes
60. CireNaes
M-o-M@38

"It's almost like we have this cellular desire for a Good King to make things right and just"

I love it. Too true. The Lord does provide ; )
Tess Laird
61. thewindrose
So did anyone see how Perrin was given a rubuke by the Wise Ones?
A squarefaced gai'shain who was half again as big as he was knelt to offer a golden cup of dark wine-punch on a elaborate siver tray.


Perrin is wondering what it meant that he was offered a golden cup, where it the beverage that is important - water would have meant equals and discussion, instead they bagder and grill him.

As to the question about what the Aes Sedai apprentices have to look forward to:
"We do not kill apprentices, Perrin Aybara," Nevarin said. She sounded shocked at the idea. "When Rand al'Thor asked us to apprentice them, perhaps he thought it was just to make them obey us,but we do not speak empty words. They are apprentices, now."
"They will remain so until five Wise Ones agree they are ready to be more," Marline added, sweeping her long hair over her shoulder. "And they are treated no differently than any others."


So it looks like the Aes Sedai can have their chances to become Wise Ones if that is their choice.

Perrin is quite lucky to get the servises of one Sebban Balwer:) One of the more cool scenes in the series is to be found in CoT of all places:) -
(The Forging of a Hammer)
Balwer blinked, then of all things, bowed with his hands folded at his waist. He smelled surprised. And gratified. Gratified? "As you say, my Lord. My previous employer disliked me suggesting unless I was asked. I won't make the same mistake again, I assure you." Eyeing Perrin, he seemed to reach a decision. "If I may say so," he said carefully, "I have found serving you...pleasent...in ways I did not expect. You are what you seem, my Lord, with no poisoned needles hidden away to catch the unwary. My previous employer was known widely for cleverness, but I believe you are equally clever, in a different way. I believe I would regret leaving your service. Any man might say these things to keep his place, but I mean them."

Very Cool!!!

tempest™
Theresa Gray
62. Terez27
@53 - yeah, I guess I just equate feudalism with any institution of nobility (like, if the commoners pay taxes to their local lord as well as to the crown). But I suck at history.
Rob Munnelly
63. RobMRobM
@57, LOL. Bravo.

@56. I disagree that Seanchan is a disaster from top to bottom. Well run army, well run administration, Tinkers are sufficiently comfortable to go to Ebou Dar en masse in order to be protected from Randland persecution, settlers are industrious. Then give thought to Randland in EOTW with Perrin/Egwene trek - whole north central part of land (think Caraline Grass) is currently uninhabited. Randland has plenty of room for settlers from Seanchan. Issue is they have to ditch the damane and da'covele and Seeker mishegas, and then things will be pretty darned good. Mat's just the guy to convince Fort of that.


@55. Of course. "What is your favorite color?"
Sandy Brewer
64. ShaggyBella
The 2 Rivers has (had) a history of democracy. The mayors were elected by popular vote. There was even tampering with the elections by Faile.
Faile POV LOC Prologue....
Each village needed a strong Mayor and a strong Wisdom to stand up for their interests....When Perrin had discovered she had been talking to the men in Taren Ferry before the election for mayor-if a man had good wits and was strong for her and Perrin, why should the men who were going to vote not know that she and Perrin returned that support? ..(Perrin was very angry) ....until she promised not to "interfere" again in any mayoral election, in the open or behind his back.....But it had not occurred to him to mention Women's Circle voting.



Also, when Sulin says

“Tell me something. Teryl Wynter and Furen Alharra are close to Seonid Traighan—like first-brothers with a first-sister; she does not like men as men—yet they offered to take her punishment for her. How could they shame her so?”

She understands Seonid and her warders have a very close relationship, but does not get the Wetlander custom of chivalry, protecting women from physical pain. Just the total opposite of the Aiel embracing pain to prove what ever it is they like to prove. For the Aiel, having someone else take your punishment would be very shaming.
John Massey
65. subwoofer
My example for yesterday's good relationship/marriage discussion.


I'll pop this on 5 too.

Woof™.
Rob Munnelly
66. RobMRobM
By the way - cool ToM news for the day. Tor just launched various countdown clocks for ToM. Pub date is 10/26/10 and you can add a clock to your website. Link is on Dragonmount twitter page.
Jay Dauro
67. J.Dauro
Subbak @10
From New Spring

"It isn't his bloody bed, Moiraine. And if it was, well, he has a gentle manner and the prettiest brown eyes you've ever seen. One of these days, you're going to find yourself ready to do more than dream about some man, and I hope I'm there to see it!"


As I remember there are others, but it is obvious that both Siuan and Moiraine think and talk about men. Although from her interaction with Cadsuane,
"Before you find a Warder like that, child, a brigand who wants to see what's in your purse will put an arrow through your heart. A footpad who'd faint at the sight of a sister in her sleep will crack your head, and you'll wake at the back of an alley minus your gold and maybe more. I suspect you'll want to take as much care choosing your first man as you do your first Warder"
Cads at least thinks she has still to lie with her first man.
Captain Hammer
68. Randalator
RobM² @54

Only if there's minstrels for dinner. And much rejoicing afterwards...
Roger Powell
69. forkroot
Freelancer@41
Her jealousy toward Nynaeve over Lan isn't 100% exclusive of romantic thoughts.
They've been together almost two decades now. One would imagine that that issue would have been long settled, probably by Moiraine suppressing any attraction because the Blue Ajah is not big on romantic entanglements (with Warders or anyone.) Still, one could forgive her a few wistful thoughts when Lan's true love finally appears, given how close they have been.
Tricia Irish
70. Tektonica
Sub@65: Where do you find this stuff? That was so cool! Yeah, we humans need more of that! Thanks!
Joseph Blaidd
71. SteelBlaidd
Terry Pratchett - Feet of Clay
No more kings. Vimes had difficulty in rticulating why this should be so, why the concept resonated in his very bones. After all, a good many of the patricians had been as bad as any king. But they were... sort of... bad on equal terms. What set Vimes's teeth on edge was the idea that kings were a different kind of human being. A higher life form.

....

Royalty was like dandelions. No matter how many heads you chopped off, the roots were still there underground, waiting to spring up again.

It seemed to be a chronic disease. It was as if even the most intelligent person had this little blank spot in their heads where someone had written: "Kings. What a good idea." Whoever had created humanity had left in a major design flaw. It was its tendency to bend at the knees.


The USA is not immune to this. We've had Two "kings" George Washington and John F. Kennedy(Its no accident that the Kennedy Administration is often referred to as Camelot).

This goes waaaay back. Consider, for example, the story of Saul first king of Israel.

1st Samuel 8-12 5 ... Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 ¶ But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.
7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
10 ¶ And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king.
11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.
19 ¶ Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.


Part of the Desire to elevate Perrin to Lord Perrin is that last expressed desire to have some one else holding the bag when things start hitting the fan.

Part of it is the desire to look good before other groups. To be "as the other nations." The Two Rivers has started to become a Nation again, after having been a amorphous region for generations, and the people want a Leader to represent them before the other nations, and they want some one who will represent them well. Part of the hyper-separation that Perrin is experiencing is because everyone is trying to behave like they think you are supposed to with a "King", to prove to the refugees that they know how, and over compensating. Part is because if he is more important they can claim a higher place at the Table of Nations. In a way Perrin is a Mascot as well as a leader. He is his Peoples representative and they want him to look good because that makes them look good.

Perrin's problem is that he doesn't want to be holding the bag and be the center of attention, and be responsible for choosing who lives and dies. Remember that Perrin is the shy one, the Geek, the "Fat Kid" in the Power Trio.

Also for those who blame Faile for Perrin's behavior during the Kidnap Plot. He has been Emo since book one (see the firs visit with the Tinkers), and he admits to himself in tGS(ch 17) that he hyper focused on Rescuing Faile in order to avoid thinking about all the "Lord Perrin" stuff.

I wonder if Moses is a parallel for Perrin leading the people out of bondage even including complaing about being Leader
Numbers 11:11-14
11 And Moses said unto the Lord, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
12 Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
13 Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat.
14 I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me.
15 And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, aout of hand, if I have found favour in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness.
Lsana
72. Lurking Canadian
@63: If you take away damane, and you take away da'covale, and you take away the Seekers, I don't think you still have Seanchan.

And I'm doubtful that they could even hold the empire together without at least two of those three (damane and Seekers). We have good reason to think that Seanchan nobles are routinely rebelling against the central authority as it is.
T C
73. Freelancer
RobMRobM@43

You make a valid point, one I didn't fail to be aware of. But mild to moderate promiscuity is NOT romance. I chose that word carefully.


RobMRobM@45

Monthy Python and the Holy Grail. "Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!"


subwoofer@59

No, I felt it was Faile's worst moment that she summarily executed Masema. After the Aiel decimated his men, and Cha Faile wiped out the remainder, they should have bound Masema, and gated him directly to Rand for judgement. He did all of his evil in Rand's name, there is where justice belonged.


forkroot@69

You have it about right, as I see it. Moiraine would never have considered Lan as a marriage prospect, due to differences in age, very large differences in national nobility cultures, and so on. But come on, Moiraine isn't pleased that Lan has found a love of his heart, because she knows she has lost part of him. There's jealousy there, however well controlled.
Hugh Arai
74. HArai
subwoofer@59:

Wise Ones- with the exception of two- I think the WO's are called that for a reason. Take their advice laddy.


He might have if they'd given him a real reason. Personally I'm happy Perrin won't kill a man just because a few Wise Ones say he's dangerous to Rand.
Tina Pierce
75. scissorrunner
Do we really WANT Kings & Lords & other royal rulers? Sure we do. At least we want the "Fantasy Ideal Royal Ruler". The wise, benevolent person who will give all to protect their own against the forces of "them".

MatHornsounder @22 - yes, WHY???

Subwoofer @65 - very cool!!! where DO you find these things???
Don Barkauskas
76. bad_platypus
Freelancer @73:
You have it about right, as I see it. Moiraine would never have considered Lan as a marriage prospect, due to differences in age, very large differences in national nobility cultures, and so on.
One small nitpick: Lan is only 2--4 years older than Moiraine (he was born in 953 NE, she in 956 NE from LoC Glossary). Other than that, I agree with you.
Lsana
77. OwMasha
(should have started catching up before she started drinking, but what the hey...)

re: Lord Perrin as opposed to Mayor/Democratically Elected Whatever - ol' Goldeneyes came back to the TR in a time of war. The Duopotamians, for all their spiky resilience and generally-sufficient awesomeness, did NOT know how to handle that, and he helped. Then, a massive load of refugees from the parts of the world that were still caught up in war/ensuing suffering poured in. Population explosion = serious cultural infusion and change, just as a general rule.

In the situation as it stood from TSR to ... well, an admittedly long time afterward .. it isn't so hard to understand that they'd want a stronger leader, someone to guide them through the uncertainty or even to stand by and say that, yes, what they're doing is still fine and justified. That level of submission doesn't necessarily have to be permanent ...

... in fact, now that I think about it, it had better d*mn not be permanent. Pull a Cincinnatus, Perrin! I still believe in you - sort of!
Mikey Bennett
78. EvilMonkey
@63 Rob

I agree with you that the Seanchan would not be a total disaster. As I understand it, only those at the top find existence uncomfortable despite the trappings of rule. After all, they modeled their empire after that of Hawkwing, one where the nobles got whipped repeatedly but a 10 year old girl could walk from one end of his empire to the other with a sack full of gold bullion and not get molested.
Even Rand in full destruction mode saw that their model worked at least fairly well. In TGS he stays his hand from laying waste to the capital because he sees a people who don't look oppressed or miserable, a place where even Tinkers live in safety from the bandits that plague the rest of Randland.

@72 L C

I also agree with you that without those 3 things there aren't Seanchan. But I think they could still survive without damane. Seekers they need for an automatic check and balance of their imperial government. And before everyone gets super indignant about da'covale, there are some of those imperial servants that have more power than the Blood. Seekers for example. Deathwatch Guard for another. And I seem to remember that property is not multi-generational unless so designated. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe being a Black guy my sensibilities should go haywire at the mention of slavery in any form, but in the case of the Seanchan there are slaves and there are Slaves.

Shadowkiller
Alice Arneson
79. Wetlandernw
Just a quick note... Granted that I'm not the one to "catch on" right away to all the sexual innuendo, I read the Sulin/Seonid comment as yet another reminder that Aiel and the rest of the world simply don't understand each others' concept of honor. Sulin doesn't understand the Warder bond, nor does she comprehend at all the willingness of one person to bear another's punishment. At the same time, the Warders (and Perrin) don't comprehend at all why she thinks it would be so horrendously shaming to Seonid for someone else to take her punishment.

To my reading, it's primarily about the inability of the representatives of two different cultures to understand the motivations and appropriate behaviors of one another. Much like Perrin and Faile, in fact; you can't begin to explain the differences until you realize that there are differences. Particularly in somewhat insular cultures like those of Randland(especially the Aiel), cultural mores and expectations can be embedded so deeply that it's almost impossible to accept that someone else could even hold such strange opinions or feelings.

Given all that, I wouldn't place much reliance on Sulin's ability to recognize "the signals" in the first place. Secondly, I can't think that in these circumstances, Seonid is all that concerned with bed partners; someone up there suggested that she had become involved with one of the Maidens, which I have to think is totally unlikely. (I mean, look at what she's going through here. Really???) Mostly, though, I could not care less about Seonid's sexual orientation unless it actually turns out to affect the plot.
Lsana
80. Jonathan Levy
There are a couple of lines Leigh didn't quote which made me laugh:

had a smooth tongue for any pretty woman, but he managed to look surprised and offended, both. “As you wish, Lord Perrin,” he muttered sulkily. “I’ll catch you up quickly.”

“I will be over with the Aiel.”

Aram blinked. “Ah. Yes. Well, it might take a while...."


Guess what! Aram and the Aiel don't get along so well! I wonder why that might be? Wouldn't you just love to see a Lost One With A Sword skipping and hopping through an Aiel camp? They'd probably all have an apoplectic fit and fall over like nine-pins.
Lsana
81. Jonathan Levy
MatHornsounder @22

You're absolutely right about the gay/straight issue. We've got 12+ books of 600+ pages each, where modern questions of sexual behavior play no role whatsoever, and this is still the first, last, and loudest thing that everyone wants to discuss. It says something very sad about our society that this has become the default topic of conversation even in entirely unrelated contexts.
Janet Hopkins
82. JanDSedai
re: Perrin's Lordship
So, why does Perrin want to pass off the leadership of his group? Who else knows enough to slice through the intricacies of changing national politics, when he is one of the people changing it?!

All of the Eomund's Fielders are uniquely positioned to take charge of the rapidly changing political landscape. They are the movers and shakers of this time, now, and we have seen that more traditional rulers are being left by the wayside.

I agree that Perrin is reluctant to lead, but there is nobody else that would have a clue what to do. Sure, he and his friends don't know everything that they could (or should), but they have the most information of anyone. As Harriet said in her interview with R Fife, it's all about making the best decision you can with the information you have available.
David Platt
83. The Not So Dark One
Whilst Perrin is their Lord the two rivers havent given up their Mayor - and Im sure he is doing a good job of running the place while the army is away. In terms of the men in camp - they are soliders and Lord / General / Captain or any sort of authority is there for a reason.
After the fighting? who knows, and the next Lord of the Two Rivers may not be as relaxed about Mayoral authority as Perrin is but the system is still there for now.

Eurolander @29 - I think Weevils feature heavily in the rations.
T C
84. Freelancer
Bad_Platypus@76

Yeah, that's one item in there I always had a problem with. Lan is presented as already nearing 40 when he first meets Moiraine. She and Siuan are suggested to be within a year or two of each other based upon their arrival at Tar Valon, their lockstep progression in strength and skill. Siuan is raised Amyrlin several years later at the age of 30. I've always believed that Lan was at least 10 years older.


Wetlandernw@79

Yeah, Leigh went right past the actual honor implications of Sulin's question to the more gender-involved subject. The misunderstanding on Sulin's part is in fact a difference in what is perceived as honorable. Most folks from other cultures would see honor in someone being willing to accept the punishment of another, an act of substitutionary sacrifice, where the Aiel see the ji in one's stoic acceptance and receipt of their own rightfully deserved punishment. They find shame in the idea that one person would want to rob another of that ji, bringing with it also the implication of weakness, and therefore shame.

Upon reflection, there is merit in the Aiel way of viewing these things. Jordan's handling of the intricacies is virtually lost upon us jaded re-re-re-readers, but it's still remarkable.
John Massey
85. subwoofer
@Free- I'm not going to bring up the obvious example, but like certain mass murderers in the last 30 years, we know Masema stinks of poo. IIRC Rand was hugely honked off when that one Aiel guy was brought to his attention for offing a tree-killer with a dragon tattoo. Something to the effect of "you know the law, wtf, why are you wasting my time for carrying out justice"... anyways, I just feel that they skipped the middle man. IMHO if Rand really wanted to kill Masema himself, he would have popped over and done it himself.

With the exception of the Shaido, what reason does Perrin have not to trust the Aiel? Ummm... beyond his cultural ignorance. Mind you, he is ignoring advice from Aes Sedai too, so maybe he is just being consistent.

Woof™.
Captain Hammer
86. Randalator
Freelancer @41

Her jealousy toward Nynaeve over Lan isn't 100% exclusive of romantic thoughts.

Yes, it pretty much is.

To her surprise, Moiraine felt a flash of jealousy. She had never felt that before, certainly not for any of the women who had thrown their hearts at his feet, or those who had shared his bed. Indeed, she had never thought of him as an object of jealousy, had never thought so of any man.
(TGH, ch. 22)

Actually all that she thinks of in this whole chapter is the close bond of companionship she shares with Lan. No romantic thoughts at all. They have spent almost twenty years together, fighting side by side, risking their lives for each other, being the only ones they really trust and now with Nynaeve entering the picture that relationship is coming to an end.

The jealousy she feels is that of a friend who has to come to terms with the fact that she is no longer the most important person in Lan's life.
Marcus W
87. toryx
Randalator @ 86:
The jealousy she feels is that of a friend who has to come to terms with the fact that she is no longer the most important person in Lan's life.

Well said. That's exactly it.

On the subject of Perrin's newfound nobility: I find it ironic that we're so concerned about the Two Rivers loss of independence when the reality of his lordship is that he's not even there to rule over them. He's like an English lord in the middle ages, taking all the strong men away to fight in his battles and leaving the Two Rivers on their own to deal with all the changes going on.

In effect, nothing much has really changed unless they choose someone else to make all the decisions in Perrin's place.

At the same time, I can't help but wonder how badly they're affected by the loss of all their able young men going off to battle. Particularly now that so many newcomers are coming into the Two Rivers, it's sort of ripe for all kinds of shenanigans.
R B
88. MasterAlThor
Tek @52
Wetlander,

Yep it doesn't matter unless it affects the plot. Seonid can like whoever she likes. It is irrelevant for now.

Dragon
Tess Laird
89. thewindrose
toryx - Indeed, Taim made a visit there and carried off a bunch of young men who could channel.
Logain is tring to keep an eye on them , but I guess this is could be a shiver moment for those of us who feel that Taim is not on team light:)

And some of the Forsaken do have the Two Rivers on their map, so it would be good for one of our Two River super kids to remember their roots, and send some help back, or a way to get alarms if something is happening.

tempest™
James Hogan
90. Sonofthunder
toryx@87, I guess we'll have to wait for the last chapter of MoL..."Scouring of the Two Rivers". Perrin and Mat return in their crowns and lay some whooping down on Taim/Shaido/whoever.

Edit, because I can't spell Mat. :(
Lucas Vollmer
91. aspeo
I have always kind of thought that the Two Rivers would primarily be left out of future forsaken attacks. Other than Perrin the main group has shown little outward interest to other people in talking about, or going back to the Two Rivers. It's already been attacked once, and Perrin was there to deal with it. This always seemed to be the one big battle for the main heroes hometown, and after that it would be left alone for the bigger battlefields that the Last Battle would bring.

Sonofthunder@90 I see what you did there ;) lol

Also, can someone tell me what duopotamia means? I've seen it used quite a bit in conjunction with the main heroes I think, but I'm not sure where it came from.
Maiane Bakroeva
92. Isilel
I have to say that I am with Lsana here. I hated when the Duopotamians hideously mutated from the tough, self-reliant people we first met into Perrin toadies and lick-spittles, who are unable to do anything without constant direction and encouragement by their "betters". Why do they need royalty? Why couldn't they have been like the Swiss? They even have Mountains of Mist to hide into, if they have to.

Mind, unlike most here I think that even in the modern world democracy truly works only in the small minority of countries and that most of the rest would have been better off with a monarchy than with the messes that they have currently (mostly due to the self-interested Great Powers meddling, too).

But TR had a strong, functioning democratic tradition already! All they needed was to figure out how to organize themselves in emergency - which peoples like the Swiss managed to accomplish iRL.

I also absolutely hate all that fawning and scraping over Perrin here - this is not true leadership at all!
True leaders, even royal one, could and did perform manual tasks and managed to be on friendly terms with servants, if they were so inclined, without losing respect or ability to command.
All this hulabuloo only demonstrates to me that Perrin is not truly a leader, but just a puppet of the Pattern.

And of course, his rational decisions in this storyline are all pretty bad, like here re: Masema. WOs and Seonid are absolutely right here, but Perrin, of course, has girl cooties and is inclined to do the opposite ;).

Generally, I really liked early Perrin, but IMHO the only example of true leadership from him was back when he bossed around Egwene in TEoTW. That showed that he had potential.

But while I liked his TR storyline in TSR, it was just painfully obvious even there that most of it was just the Pattern.
Not only was it obvious, but RJ went right out and said so via Verin.
I mean, Perrin's heart was in the right place, but nothing he did there was amazingly clever or convincing. People listened to him and began to follow him not because he was amazingly inspirational, but because they were caught in his ta'veren swirl.
But that was acceptable to me, because, well, it was Perrin's apprenticeship as a leader and generally it was an awesome last stand sub-plot, with excellently written battles.

But in this storyline?! No. It should have been well past that. It is one of the reasons that I hate it. If Perrin is really so incapable without ta'veren propping, then don't shove him down my throat as a leader of people. Surely he could have been a hero important to the victory of Light in some other way?
Jay Dauro
93. J.Dauro
aspeo
If you look up potamia in Wikipedia (or other sources) you will find one meaning of river or river valley. With duo, we get "Two Rivers" . Yeah, we do tend to get a little cute at times.
Ron Garrison
94. Man-0-Manetheran
Age Differences

Over several threads there has been a lot of discussion about age differences, so I'll just toss this one out: In a universe where reincarnation is a given, and we have been shown examples of souls that are hundreds if not thousands of years old, then a difference of 10-15 years isn't so very much.

Haven't you all found people who were much younger than you who can hold up a conversation as well as those of your own age? And conversely, I'm sure we've all met people of our same age or older who still seem like children.
Lucas Vollmer
95. aspeo
J.Dauro@93 Thank you so much! It all makes so much more sense now.
Tricia Irish
96. Tektonica
Isilel@92:

I find myself agreeing with you more and more these days! I think Perrin is a pretty unexciting leader too. He's better when he has to respond quickly and doesn't have time to "ponder". His choices in this whole "plod line" seem more reactionary than pro-active.

I just finished the SR and enjoyed him much more there, but you're right, even Verin states how interesting it is to watch "ta'veren-ness" in action. His ideas were good, for the most part, but he doesn't appear to be a forceful leader. Quiet strength, perhaps. Maybe they respected him since he "left" the Two Rivers with Aes Sedai and survived to come back with a very unique entourage. He did have the best ideas for self-preservation of the TR too.

Man-O@94: **waves**

You are absolutely right about age being relative. My friends have a 50 year age span. The phenomena of older men with younger women has been around forever.....of course the case could be made that men take longer to mature ;-))......and then there's the biological imperative. But really, when will the world stop caring if a woman is 10 years older than the guy? Geez. Who cares!!!
Jacy Clark
97. Amalisa
@several re Perrin's "lordship" - The best explanation for how Perrin got to where he is and what the future may hold for him (depending on how TG works out) is what his father-in-law told him on their first meeting:
Boy, the Creator never made the Houses. Some forget it, but go far enough back in any House, and you'll find a commoner who showed uncommon courage or kept his head and took charge when everyone else was running around like plucked geese.
If that doesn't render a large chunk of TSR down for stock then I ain't sittin' here with a laptop on my lap and a cat at my shoulder.

Lsana@3 - The fate of the Two Rivers was pretty much decided when Moiraine gave her speech about Manetheren and thereby stirred the embers of national pride in their collective consciousness. Perrin returning and leading them to rout the Trollocs and the Whitecloaks just sealed the deal. But in Randland, and by virtue of the societal structures inherent there, a "Lord" (or even "King") is necessary. These folks aren't ready for a representative democracy. And, eventually, the "new" will wear off. When the crises are past, the DO defeated and the world returned to some semblance of normalcy, the Two Rivers folk will return to their self-reliant, independent ways and then Lord/King Perrin will have his hands full! :D
~and~
Lsana@19 - Yes, they had a democratic tradition on a small scale; Emond's Field, Deven Ride, Taren Ferry and Watch Hill all had their own Village Council and Women's Circle. But they had no national unity. Also, remember that Manetheren took in more than just the Two Rivers; there was a big chunk of Ghealdan, as well. If (when) Manetheren is reborn, there will need to be a strong central leader who is capable of uniting the people beneath one flag. As for questions of democracy, whether as lord or king, I believe that Perrin would be a lot more democratic than most.

Longtimefan@4 - Seonid and Masuri... hmmm... interesting. I went back and re-read Perrin's meeting with Alyse/Galina at the beginning of KoD. Galina knows who they are but there's nothing from her pov to hint at either of them being anything other than Green and Brown. But would anyone other than Alviarin know all of the members of the BA? Things that make you go hmmmm....

@several re Seonid not liking men - Admittedly, it's a little unusual for a Green (as we are given to understand them) but we've seen other examples of AS who are so committed to their causes that they just don't think of romantic companionship, regardless of gender. Consider Moiraine (after Siuan and before Thom). I mean, she's been traveling for over twenty years with Lan, for crying out loud! I rest my case.

@several re Sebban Balwer - Agree. He is totally awesome! Like Halwin Norry (Elayne's "First Clerk"), he is one of those "minor" characters who shine the light into the dark places and keep our heroes from tripping and falling over their own egos. I love him!

toryx@34 - "That's just one step down from helping a friend hide a body." *rofl*

Sonofthunder@39 - What indecisive? The Two Rivers has, for all practical intents and purposes, elected Perrin. You can't chalk all of it up to ta'veren-ness.

Longtimefan@40 - Okay. I'll admit that I heard - faintly - the opening strains of "Rule Britannia" in my head just then...

Wolfbrother87@42 - No, you aren't the only one. And I'm already on record here that Perrin and Faile aren't all that unusual, and that Perrin's behavior later in the thread is completely understandable.

chaplainchris@51 - Omigosh! I never even considered the possibility that anyone would want to Bond Masema to try and control him! Oh, that puts a really twisted spin on it! Yikes!

RobMRobM@54 - Monday was International Monty Python Status Day on Facebook. Which would have made your post a gimme even if I didn't flashback regularly to silly walks and the like.

subwoofer@59 - While I loved the way Masema was finally dispatched, I do agree that Rand's handling of the situation could have been interesting.

Re "slice of life" - This chapter, and those like it, have a John Ford/John Wayne "The Quiet Man", "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon", "Rio Grande" kind of vibe. A little old-fashioned - but in a good way. Rousing the village folk/troops to bolster their spirits, people capering about, whoopin' and hollerin'. Then, when the intrepid hero/commander is sure he's pulled the wool over his followers' eyes, he goes to face the real issue of the moment and gets his butt handed to him on a platter by Maureen O'Hara and Mildred Natwick. Sort of...

I love those movies... *sigh
Jacy Clark
98. Amalisa
@several re Perrin's "lordship" - The best explanation for how Perrin got to where he is and what the future may hold for him (depending on how TG works out) is what his father-in-law told him on their first meeting:
Boy, the Creator never made the Houses. Some forget it, but go far enough back in any House, and you'll find a commoner who showed uncommon courage or kept his head and took charge when everyone else was running around like plucked geese.
If that doesn't render a large chunk of TSR down for stock then I ain't sittin' here with a laptop on my lap and a cat at my shoulder.

Lsana@3 - The fate of the Two Rivers was pretty much decided when Moiraine gave her speech about Manetheren and thereby stirred the embers of national pride in their collective consciousness. Perrin returning and leading them to rout the Trollocs and the Whitecloaks just sealed the deal. But in Randland, and by virtue of the societal structures inherent there, a "Lord" (or even "King") is necessary. These folks aren't ready for a representative democracy. And, eventually, the "new" will wear off. When the crises are past, the DO defeated and the world returned to some semblance of normalcy, the Two Rivers folk will return to their self-reliant, independent ways and then Lord/King Perrin will have his hands full! :D
~and~
Lsana@19 - Yes, they had a democratic tradition on a small scale; Emond's Field, Deven Ride, Taren Ferry and Watch Hill all had their own Village Council and Women's Circle. But they had no national unity. Also, remember that Manetheren took in more than just the Two Rivers; there was a big chunk of Ghealdan, as well. If (when) Manetheren is reborn, there will need to be a strong central leader who is capable of uniting the people beneath one flag. As for questions of democracy, whether as lord or king, I believe that Perrin would be a lot more democratic than most.

Longtimefan@4 - Seonid and Masuri... hmmm... interesting. I went back and re-read Perrin's meeting with Alyse/Galina at the beginning of KoD. Galina knows who they are but there's nothing from her pov to hint at either of them being anything other than Green and Brown. But would anyone other than Alviarin know all of the members of the BA? Things that make you go hmmmm....

@several re Seonid not liking men - Admittedly, it's a little unusual for a Green (as we are given to understand them) but we've seen other examples of AS who are so committed to their causes that they just don't think of romantic companionship, regardless of gender. Consider Moiraine (after Siuan and before Thom). I mean, she's been traveling for over twenty years with Lan, for crying out loud! I rest my case.

@several re Sebban Balwer - Agree. He is totally awesome! Like Halwin Norry (Elayne's "First Clerk"), he is one of those "minor" characters who shine the light into the dark places and keep our heroes from tripping and falling over their own egos. I love him!

toryx@34 - "That's just one step down from helping a friend hide a body." *rofl*

Sonofthunder@39 - What indecisive? The Two Rivers has, for all practical intents and purposes, elected Perrin. You can't chalk all of it up to ta'veren-ness.

Longtimefan@40 - Okay. I'll admit that I heard - faintly - the opening strains of "Rule Britannia" in my head just then...

Wolfbrother87@42 - No, you aren't the only one. And I'm already on record here that Perrin and Faile aren't all that unusual, and that Perrin's behavior later in the thread is completely understandable.

chaplainchris@51 - Omigosh! I never even considered the possibility that anyone would want to Bond Masema to try and control him! Oh, that puts a really twisted spin on it! Yikes!

RobMRobM@54 - Monday was International Monty Python Status Day on Facebook. Which makes your post a "gimme"... :D

subwoofer@59 - While I loved the way Masema was finally dispatched, I do agree that Rand's handling of the situation could have been interesting.

Re "slice of life" - This chapter, and those like it, have a John Ford/John Wayne "The Quiet Man", "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon", "Rio Grande" kind of vibe. A little old-fashioned - but in a good way. Rousing the village folk/troops to bolster their spirits, people capering about, whoopin' and hollerin'. Then, when the intrepid hero/commander is sure he's pulled the wool over his followers' eyes, he goes to face the real issue of the moment and gets his butt handed to him on a platter by Maureen O'Hara and Mildred Natwick. Sort of...

I love those movies... *sigh
Ron Garrison
99. Man-0-Manetheran
Amalisa@98:
From "commoner who showed uncommon courage" to Mildred Natwick - awesome post! Just awesome!
Karen Fox
100. thepupxpert
Freelancer @ 84 - Lan is probably in his mid to late 20's in New Spring when he first meets up with Moiraine. He is still traveling with one of the soldiers who carried him out of Malkier when he was an infant, that soldier dies in New Spring defending him. My impression was that they were no more than a few years apart in age, both in their 20's.
Lsana
101. Hrothgordo
Perrin’s reluctance is overplayed although it is somewhat consistent with his character. From the beginning he would always overthink things to make sure he didn’t hurt someone with his physical strength. Now his words/commands can do far more damage then anything he could have ever done physically himself.

Until this portion of the plot his leadership has been very inspired by being ta’averen but still solid. The arc in the TR was completely logical. The Whitecloaks and Trollocs had to be removed and the people unified. He did a terrific job there.

In LoC he is fundamental in leading the combined forces to save Rand. He formed the coalition and led it into battle. The Shaido would have overrun the WT Aes Sedai well before Taim’s arrival and Rand would be in the hands of Sevanna.

Despite my annoyance for this story arc, his reasoning is solid and actually saves a lot of time. Walking up and killing Masema would have still left you with a giant band of Dragonsworn cultists who want you dead (and who still rape and pillage the countryside). His decision to try to actually try to bring Masema and then use his people as fodder against the Aiel is actually a brilliant move. Sure Masema remains a threat to Perrin directly (until Faile takes care of it) but does not remain a threat to whole countries.

Is his emo-streak too wide . . . yes. But all three of the ta’avaren struggle with pre-destination regarding leadership and love. Rand and Mat struggle against the fated love thing way more than Perrin. And Perrin only struggles slightly more than them in leadership.

And keep in mind that he is the only one of the three that has to lead the TR folk. Mat gets somewhat emo when he wins a battle but loses 1,000 nameless soldiers. I think if he suddenly got the whole family of al’Seens killed he would be just as bad as Perrin.



Now the feudal/democratic debate is a little off kilter for two reasons.

One feudalism has significant flaws for abuse but was a fairly useful form of government for a long time. The whole thing really only came down because of the Plague killing off the majority of the serfs. The rest fell when the Industrial Revolution hit, and allowed better communication, travel and the need for less workers.

The other reason is that this is a time of war. Like it or not almost all democracies have understood the need to invoke a monarchy when war is declared. In the US the president is infused with huge amounts of power and can (and has) even overruled the Constituion.

Jordan comes right down to that with the AS rebels. The leadership is presneted as entirely a representative form of government. Once they declare war on Elaida though, the Egwene is given final authority on pretty much anything.
Karen Fox
102. thepupxpert
Hrothgordo @ 101 - very well said, I agree!
Hilde Sørensen
103. edlihs
thepupxpert@100
Lan is probably in his mid to late 20's in New Spring when he first meets up with Moiraine. He is still traveling with one of the soldiers who carried him out of Malkier when he was an infant, that soldier dies in New Spring defending him. My impression was that they were no more than a few years apart in age, both in their 20's.


From encyclopedia-wot.org
Uncrowned King of Malkier, a land which was swallowed by the Blight shortly after his birth in 953 NE. At the age of sixteen he began a one-man war against the Blight and the Shadow which continued until he was bonded as Warder by Moiraine in 979 NE.
(Lan)

Moiraine is born 956 NE in the Sun Palace in Cairhien.

20 somtehing yes.
Maiane Bakroeva
104. Isilel
Amalisa @98:

Well, and why couldn't TR small-scale democracy have grown into a larger-scale democracy? Historically, such things happened. Not to mention that Perrin most likely won't even be there to defend them or solve their problems during the most critical time anyway. I.e. they have abased themselves for nothing.

we've seen other examples of AS who are so committed to their causes that they just don't think of romantic companionship, regardless of gender.

Which never seemed even remotely plausible to me. Relationship between the AS and warder is already so close and intimate, what with sensing each other's emotions and physical states and being devoted to the same goals as well being prevented from forming lasting relationships with other people, I'd have thought that for the most part they would be in sexual relationships with each other. But RJ liked his women (at least the important ones) to be virginal/chaste, particularly early on, so...

Consider Moiraine (after Siuan and before Thom). I mean, she's been traveling for over twenty years with Lan, for crying out loud!

Well, Lan was not her type, but yea. But, then, in the first books RJ also wrote that Randlandian men don't marry AS because they can't handle their wives being more important than themselves, which also made zero sense in a culture with supposed gender equality, where such situations should happen often enough.
Oh, and Lan was 26 in NS, I think that it is explicitly mentioned there. Only 4 years older than Moiraine.

Re: Seonid, I really don't understand why the AS are such wusses where beatings are concerned. Surely those should be familiar enough to them after their training.

As to Masema - leader makes a big difference. Without him, his people would have turned into disorganized rabble that locals could have dealt with, with Perrin's help.
And Masema did bring Rand in serious disrepute and was fragrantly breaking Rand's laws, so yes, he should have been killed.
Bad decision to go all wishy-washy on somebody who least deserved it. How many people were killed, dispossessed or joined Masema's ranks until it was all over?
Hugh Arai
105. HArai
Isilel@104:

But, then, in the first books RJ also wrote that Randlandian men don't marry AS because they can't handle their wives being more important than themselves, which also made zero sense in a culture with supposed gender equality, where such situations should happen often enough.

Gender equality in a culture as a whole is not mutually exclusive with some weaker individuals not wanting to commit to long-term relationships with stronger individuals.


Re: Seonid, I really don't understand why the AS are such wusses where beatings are concerned. Surely those should be familiar enough to them after their training.

It's the humiliation not the physical pain that is the issue.
Valentin M
106. ValMar
Wetlander@79

I just love your "quick" notes ;)

Isilel@92

About democracy, you're right. The bulk of today's democracies are not democratic by western standards. I don't mean just the obvious countries with names with "People's" or "Democratic" in them. In many cases democracy is just a facade for an oligarchy or other type of local "elite".

Amalisa@98

About how a noble house begins. The quote explains how thing happen in Fantasy. I like it, that's why I read the genre. I wish that it is like this in real life.
Lsana
107. alreadymadwithmasema
chaplainchris @51
Bond Masema?! I guess we'll soon find out if any of the Aes Sedai in Perrin's party suddenly start crying all night.

toryx @87
Errr.. a lot of the newcomers eventually joined up with Perrin for the Battle of Malden. So less trouble from the men. And up until then Tam Al'thor and Abell Cauthon were nominally in charge of the town's safety. It's the Domani women that are apparently causing trouble.

Isilel @104
Considering how large Masema's following had gotten, I'm not so sure it would have simply melted away if Masema had been simply killed or captured. It might have disintegrated, but random men would have risen to take charge of disparate factions. And this is a following that is practically spread out over the entire Ghealdan countryside, and potentially violent enough to give Whitecloaks some pause. Masema's followers splintering would have gotten Perrin several headaches to replace the single monolithic Masema.

I'm getting in late on the Sulin thingy.
This is a woman who chose the spear over any sort of personal life she might have. I don't think she'd be that perceptive about the intricacies of male-female relationships particularly between Aes Sedai and their Warder(s).
John Massey
108. subwoofer
@Isilel- Hulabaloo FTW!! :)

Yes, ignorant masses following a religious kook- recipe for disaster.

Yay for Capt. Nathan Brittles! I was always partial to this movie- ahhhh good times:)

Woof™.
Lsana
109. chaplainchris
@ 107 alreadymadwithmasema - re: the potential plan to bond Masema.

Oh, I don't think any of the Aes Sedai *did* bond him. And honestly, the thought had never occured to me until this readthrough post. So it's not like a pet theory I've been carrying around.

But it's never been clear why Masuri and Annoura were meeting Masema in secret, or why Seonid thought he needed to be killed while Masuri thought he could be controlled. The leashed/bound terminology just jumped out at me this time. I don't know that it's really what Masuri had in mind, but it seems plausible.

I mean, how else would somebody even be able to imagine that they could control Masema but through Compulsion or Bonding?

In which case, I say again, ew mouthspew ew.

@104 Isilel - I'm not following. You say it never even seemed remotely plausible that some Aes Sedai were so devoted to their cause that they weren't interested in their Warders - given their common goals, close proximity, emotional connections, and isolation from other prospects. But then you blithely dismiss the non-relationship btw Moiraine and Lan by saying that he "wasn't her type." Why is it plausible for Moiraine and Lan and not for others?

I also don't buy that RJ put any special emphasis on having his women be virginal - esp. I note that you add "important" and "early on" as caveats. The important *guys* are just as virginal early on. They come from a culture where, if you're found having sex outside of marriage, you're marched before the Women's Circle and forcibly married. That's true for the men and the women, and Wil Al'Seen or Nelli Congar are the exceptions that prove the rule.

The men/AS thing - egalitarian culture or not, AS have super-powers, and even Warders are seen as servants as well as guards. Lan is the uber-Warder and even he only occasionally argued with Moiraine. And look at Egwene's (quite correct) lecture to Gawyn - that he *mustn't* question her (esp. publicly, or even just talking with friends) as it undermines her position. This combination of actual inequality, functional inequality, and social inequality is not real appealing to me, either. I mean, not that arguing is fun, but how does a marraige where you can't argue (or you must lose every argument) very appealing?

I totally hope for a wife who is an equal and will disagree with me and overrule me. But I want to be equal too, and disagree with her and overrule her. It has to be reciprocal. (Which is why I think SF marriage customs are...interesting.)

Hoping I don't sound like a medieval troll(oc) to be flamed. I think AS are cool. Except for the ones who are lame. But generally I think they're cooler than the Ashaman.

And...I'd totally marry an AS before an Ashaman, so there's that. :)
Sharon E.
110. Sulin
Dang, I'm out for a day and miss all the good discussion! *pouts*

I'll just go back to my re-re-re-re-read of LoC. ;)
Jacy Clark
111. Amalisa
Man-o-Manetheren@99 - Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it! :D

Isilel@104 - Well, eventually, a "modern style" democracy could evolve. The operative word being "eventually". The type of social and political experimentation that could evolve into a large scale representative democracy takes time. And time isn't exactly a luxury currently available to the Two Rivers - or any other place in Randland. Let's get them through Tarmon Gai'don first, 'kay? (I still hold with my assertion that Perrin will be a far more "democratic" ruler than most.) You say that Perrin "most likely won't even be there to defend them or solve their problems during the most critical time anyway". Tarmon Gai'don will be their problem and he will be defending them - barring some kind of GRRM "let's kill someone really important" moment. Whether at Rand's side or with the wolves in T'a'R or some other way, Perrin will be in the thick of things come TG and that will be the best and only way he can defend his people. Because if Rand et al fail, whether or not the Two Rivers/Manetheren is ruled by a king will be the least of their worries, don't you think?

As for Aes Sedai and romantic companionship... Several posts back, there was a parallel drawn between the White Tower and the Catholic church. While the White Tower is not a monastic order per se, the comparisons between Aes Sedai "Sisters" and nuns can't be completely discounted. The Amyrlin = Mother Superior... Novices - well, that comparison is pretty obvious. The Accepted have taken their temporary vows, and the Aes Sedai have made the Solemn Profession. And while the Three Oaths of the Aes Sedai bear no resemblance to the monastic vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, the level of commitment required for individual members of the religious (in the monastic sense) community and the Aes Sedai are similar. For some among the AS, I would imagine that commitment does mean to the exclusion of all else. Including romantic relationships.

ValMar@106 - Don't you imagine that at some point in the dim recesses of antiquity, some community/village found themselves facing danger and someone in that community/village stood up and said "this is what we should do" and they did it and it worked. And they kept following his advice until it became habit and, eventually, he was in charge. Yes, as time went on, kings and queens created lords but somewhere in the deep, dark past someone made himself a ruler simply by being stronger, braver, smarter and/or more ruthless than his neighbors. "The Creator never made the Houses," and God didn't hand out thrones and crowns way back when.

subwoofer@108 - Aaaannnnddd another hour or so spent on YouTube... *lol*
Hilde Sørensen
112. edlihs
Isilel@104

Which never seemed even remotely plausible to me. Relationship between the AS and warder is already so close and intimate, what with sensing each other's emotions and physical states and being devoted to the same goals as well being prevented from forming lasting relationships with other people, I'd have thought that for the most part they would be in sexual relationships with each other. But RJ liked his women (at least the important ones) to be virginal/chaste, particularly early on, so...

Consider Moiraine (after Siuan and before Thom). I mean, she's been traveling for over twenty years with Lan, for crying out loud!

Well, Lan was not her type, but yea. But, then, in the first books RJ also wrote that Randlandian men don't marry AS because they can't handle their wives being more important than themselves, which also made zero sense in a culture with supposed gender equality, where such situations should happen often enough.

As earlier mentioned the parallel between the monasteries in the middle ages is a big factor. But the point is the Ivory Tower mentality. The Aes Sedai are the reason they almost never get married. Look at the Sea Folk and the Wise Ones. They marry and are trusted. The Aes Seda isolated themselves from the world and then they were surprised the world didn't trust them. They thought that swearing a few oats on the Oath Rod was all it took to restore trust. They missed the point. When Egwene accepts the Oats she accepted the Aes Sedai mentality. Elaine and Nynaeve don't accept the Oath Rod because they are not actively part of the Tower. Nynaeve is still the Wisdom in her heart as much as Elaine is the Daughterheir /Queen of Andor in hers. It is Deeds that builds trust not Words.
During reformation, and to some degree before, the monasteries of Europe lost popularity and was under criticism because they were closed to the rest of the society.

Edit: Oat Rod replaced with Oath
Mikey Bennett
113. EvilMonkey
@112 edlihs

I have to disagree with you that the world mistrusts Aes Sedai. After all, every ruler in Randland has their advisor save the Whitecloaks (and with Galad assuming leadership that might change too). That Ivory Tower mentality is probably the only reason anyone remembers that there is a Last Battle to fight. They are looked to as an authority, a keeper of ancient knowledge, and anybody who leads is expected to deal with them. Even Rand for all his mistrust of them still has to be seen dealing with them as a symbol of the trappings of his power. For 3000 years these ladies have kept awareness of the enemy and awareness of the quite imperfect savior of the world in the minds of humanity. The varnish flakes off of their pristine image as we find out that these girls are all too human, but that is only because throughout the course of these books we have gotten to know quite a few of them. Windfinders and Wise Ones hold respected places within their communities but they don't have to deal with the world at large either. For a group that operates on a global scale, they must be seen as impartial, aloof even.

Hope that all made sense, operating on about an hour of sleep in the last 36.

Shadowkiller
John Massey
114. subwoofer
But it's never been clear why Masuri and Annoura were meeting Masema in secret, or why Seonid thought he needed to be killed while Masuri thought he could be controlled.

Perhaps they caught an hour of his show on the tele and were pouring money into supporting him.

As we are talking about ineffective leaders- Masema? The guy is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. How could he slime his way past anybody's radar (okay, whatever they had instead of a radar back then- birdwatching skills-I dunno) when he obviously had the light of lunacy in his eyes. Unless it was a lunatics of the world- unite! Every opportunist that falls out of a tree seems to have jumped on this wagon and are doing horrible things in the name of "following the Dragon". I still do not see why one of the Sheinarans did not off him from the word jump when he started foaming at the mouth.

Aaaaand by popular request....

Woof™.
Valentin M
115. ValMar
Amalisa@111

In the dim recesses of antiquity the ancestors of the noble families that followed were most often the "barbarian" warlords who swept aside the West Roman Empire. These guys gave land and title to their loyal followers, ennobling them as well.
Loyalty to their lieges and conquest led to the creation of new nobility, most often.
The scenario with someone defending their village and people following him and he becoming a lord sounds implausible. In feudal Europe this would be regarded as a dangerous precedent or an outright rebelion against the established "by God" order.

There is one type of situation close to Perrin's I can think of.
There were many smaller tribes or clans who moved into Western Europe. They were made up of a band of warriors with their families and other followers- a village worth of people. They just wanted a place to settle in the green lands of Gaul, Italy, etc. One of the warriors, the chieftain, managed to achieve his people's aim. He then accepted the overlordship of the bigger chieftain ruling the region. Thus, the chief of the now settled people gained the trust of his people and the acknowledgment of the local ruler. He build a manor, church, gave land to his warriors (knights) and his heirs followed in his place.

Thanks for reading my ramblings. A bit cynical but I believe what happened at the establishment of Venice is the exception not the rule.
Tess Laird
116. thewindrose
subwoofer(nice picture of Uno by the way - are you two related?;)
Elayne and Nynaeve took all the non-crazy Shienarans with them to Salidar. It must be one of those things that fall into the law of unintended consequences. Since Uno and crew left, there was no one to say - 'You have totally lost your wits' while sliding a sword between his ribs. I think Uno would have, he was starting to question what Masema was doing. Also, Moiraine knew about what was happening, but didn't have time to deal with it:(

So, I guess some may say that Uno and crew were running away from the problem by taking up with Nyneave and Elayne? I don't see that. I think things were happening very quickly, and Masema and his followers had just gotten to Somera from Jehannah when the girls show up. At this time Masema had not yet took crazy to a higher level. Without the other Shienarans Masema starts his campaign across Ghealdan.

tempest™
Hugh Arai
117. HArai
evilmonkey@113: Unless "are avoided if even remotely possible" counts as "dealing on a global scale" the Aiel and Sea Folk are perfect examples of two cultures aware of the Last Battle without Aes Sedai reminders. The Wise Ones deal with the wetlanders as much as the Aes Sedai deal with the Aiel. For that matter, there's the little matter of constant Trolloc raids and the Blight in case the Borderlands were ever in danger of forgetting.

As for rulers having advisor being an indication for trust, not so much. It would be more accurate to say that the rulers are wary enough of the AS that they don't refuse when the White Tower places someone in their court.

No one refuses an audience with the Amyrlin Seat, sheepherder. Not the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks himself. Pedron Niall might spend the trip planning how to kill her, if he could do it and get away, but he would come."


That's awareness of power. Not trust.
Lsana
118. Lasty
I'm not sure why some people think that Sulin is sexually inexperienced and therefore completely clueless about any type romantic relationship.

In FoH she tells Rand that she had a lover, but chose the spear over marrying him.
Matthew Smith
119. blocksmith
thewindrose@116

IIRC, by the time Elayne and Nynaeve show up and then leave with Uno and others, Masema is already off his meds and is refusing to attend group therapy.
Daniel Goss
120. Beren
Re: Masema

Dude has been off his nut since the scene in TDR where he attributes the wolves fighting for them to Rand's miraculous abilities. Can't remember the exact scene, but I do remember reading the line and thinking "There's a zealot in the making."

For what it's worth.
-Beren
Alice Arneson
121. Wetlandernw
ValMar @106 - Well, that one was "quick" compared to what this one was going to be... :)

Amalisa @111 - Well said.

edlihs @112 - "The Aes Seda isolated themselves from the world and then they were surprised the world didn't trust them. They thought that swearing a few oats on the Oath Rod was all it took to restore trust." It's not like they looked around one day and realized that no one trusted them any more, so they came up with this Oath Rod idea. Each Oath was added (over the course of something like a thousand years) in response to a particular situation, as a self-policing effort. I.e., something was done that they wanted to be sure no Aes Sedai ever did again, and it was important enough to decide that they all needed to take an Oath against it. We haven't been given specifics, but I could imagine something like this:
Back in the early years after the Breaking, there were Aes Sedai who made weapon ter'angreals which could be used by non-channelers. As the White Tower organized itself and saw how the nations were forming and re-forming around them, they realized how dangerous and horrible those ter'angreal were in the hands of men who were now trying to carve out kingdoms for themselves. Not only did they make it a mission to collect and safeguard all those ter'angreal (and all others as well), they took on themselves a solemn Oath to never make such weapons again. This was not to make outsiders trust them, but to be sure that not only they, but all future Aes Sedai would not make such a mistake again.
Please note that this is a possible scenario, not canon, but it fits with what we've been told about the Oaths. I could come up with similar situations for the other two, but I'm sure anyone who thinks about it for a few minutes could come up with several as well.

EvilMonkey @113 - Well said, especially considering the lack of sleep!

subwoofer @114 - "... lunatics of the world- unite!" Yup, that's it. :) Aside from the "it's part of the story RJ was telling" I've always wished someone would have quietly stuck a knife in him somewhere about 5 books ago...

ValMar @115 - " In feudal Europe this would be regarded as a dangerous precedent or an outright rebelion against the established 'by God' order." For Amalisa's scenario, go back a few hundred more years. Dimmer reaches than the ones where feudal systems are already established - she's talking about what started the feudal systems in the first place.

thewindrose @116 - In addition, by the time we meet Uno & co. in Samara, at least, it was too late; even the Sheinarans weren't allowed to take weapons into his presence or use his name.

Rats. I have a great long ramble on Perrin and another on whingeing about the lack of "realism" in WoT, but I don't have time right now. Later.
Lsana
122. Rand Al'Todd
Valmar @106 and @115:

"About how a noble house begins. The quote explains how thing happen in Fantasy. I like it, that's why I read the genre. I wish that it is like this in real life."

That IS how it happens in real life. Somebody steps up and makes something happen. The issue that has everyone else "running around like plucked geese" might just be a business decision instead of a Trolloc attack.

The punishment for doing a good job is being assigned a bigger/harder job. - defend the village, run the bake sale, etc.

Sure, many "leaders" are the offspring of the current leaders, but many others are folks who moved up through the ranks. And, EVERY royal family was established because at some point, some ancestor initially distinguished themselves enougth to start up the path to nobility.

Most European nobility can trace back for centuries, but eventually they come to that one ancestor who was smart enough, brave enough, strong enough, lucky enough to do something right and cause one or more of his neighbors to follow HIM instead of the other guy. Or to get noticed by the king, baron, duke, etc. and knighted, adopted, allowed to marry the daughter, or whatever that moved him up another step.

It still happens even today - look at the list of movie stars, musicians, military personnel, etc who get Knighted by Queen Eliz each year. BECAUSE they did something that showed ability, talent, whatever you want to call it.

Look at America's nobility - Vanderbilts, Rockerfellers, Kennedys, you name it - they all started with someone who "made it happen."

Look, for example at the Kennedys. Pappa Joe Kennedy was basically the son of a saloon owner. He used the system (and Prohibition and the Mob) to gain money, political power, money, control over all Scotch imported into the US, money, ownership of movies studios, money, an appointment as ambassador to England - where he did everything he could to assure that England would have to surrender to Hitler-, money, more political power, more money, the presidency for one of his sons, etc.

Bill Gates, Sam Walton, Wendy's Dave, Apple's Steve Jobs - all got where they are today because they "made something happen" and moved up accordingly.

And look at military promotions during a real war, in any army/navy in any nation: The war may start with all the officers being children of the nobility, but by the end of the war, the officers in charge are the ones who have moved up because they kept their heads and made better decisions in bad situations than the other guys.

Do many "good people" get overlooked? Yes. Luck plays a role too.
Lsana
123. Randlanddude
Freelancer@41 - I would try to stay away from "flame detector" unless you are really tring to "inflame" people. Even though I totally get your jest, substituting "flamers" for all gay people, well, it's a little disrespectful.
Ron Garrison
124. Man-0-Manetheran
Rand Al'Todd @ 122:
Yeah. That's what I meant.

Randlanddude @ 123:
Good advice.
T C
125. Freelancer
I was intending to be disrespectful. Is "gaydar" more respectful? Not in reality. The very concept under discussion is that one person can accurately, and with certainty, judge another's inclinations based upon only the most superficial evidence. That is truly disrespectful. Sometimes the only effective way to point out the absurd is through absurdity. We are fond of warning each other not to judge a book by it's cover. And then we accept ideas like "gaydar". Please. I'm just amazed it took so many comments before someone brought it up.
Noneo Yourbusiness
126. Longtimefan
If everyone was respectful and logical where would all the fun little dissmissive word play come from? What a drab and reasonable world that would be. :)

In general this has been a bit of a slow thread. Maybe it is just the one chapterness of it all.

Leadership and Lordship and Lesbianship are not many horses to beat really. All of them through the expectation of others but not from the individual in question shouldering the mantle intentionally.
Lsana
127. Subbak
re : Perrin's being a Lord vs a dictator for life, I just realised that feudalism does not mean hereditary monarchy. It is the case in WoT as well, as we can see with the Amyrlin Seat, the King of Illian, the Panarch of Tarabon (but apparently not the King), and the Mistress of Ships (possibly the whole Sea Folk Nobility is actually elected, each by its direct subordinates).
Sure, it's not democracy, but it solves some problems.
Roger Powell
128. forkroot
Anybody else noticed that the Open Spoiler thread appears to be inaccessible? I get:

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 75497472 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 6867363 bytes) in /www/sites/www.tor.com/files/html/libraries/joomla/cache/storage/file.php on line 100

I was bored and thought I'd wander over there :-)
Lsana
129. EvilMonkey
@117 Harai
"That's awareness of power. Not trust."

And how did those Aes Sedai get that power? And how did they keep it? The answer is that they have been the only group that survived the Breaking, so they have name recognition going for them first of all. They cannot keep such power through threat of violence or destruction, that is what the Oaths are for. They are class manipulators which makes rulers who deal with them on a daily mistrustful of them, yet even those rulers know the mission statement of the group, which is to prepare the world for TG. They fudge up the job from time to time, as Hawkwing can attest to. Yet their record of good to great service over the last 3000 years is unmatched. Just for an example of their legacy, when there is a problem of a mystical nature, one most people cannot deal with, they send in an Aes Sedai to investigate. When someone asks about ancient lore, they are looking to the Aes Sedai. When an Aes Sedai speaks on a subject, for most people they consider it a done deal. Not because they think the lady will blow them off the face of the earth if they refuse, or at least not entirely. Its because they see the Aes Sedai and believe that they generally know what they're talking about. And the great Aes Sedai are Very Great Indeed. Moraine, Cadsuane (even those who hate her can agree she is monolithic or at least formiddible), the two Aes Sedai who set the Aiel on their path, can't remember their names right now, Gitara Moroso (without her Rand might not have been born where he was supposed to and Moraine might not be alive to guide his first steps to power), soooper sneeeeaky Verin, the chick who got the Amrylin Seat after Bonwhin did such a FANTASTIC job with Hawkwing, a freaky good list to which one day we'll be adding the Super Girls. Are the Aes Sedai perfect? Hell no, hell no, hell no!!!!!! But their influence on the world is a net positive, one in which the world needed if they were going to make it to TG in tact. One last thing, it is a self correcting organization. Any Amrylin who seeks to rule the world from her seat is summarily smacked down, generally from the inside. Bonwhin and Elaida are examples of that (though Elaida got snatched by the Seanchan it's obvious to me that the hall wasn't about to keep putting up with her crap, even without Egwene giving them such a shining example to follow).

Shadowkiller
Tricia Irish
130. Tektonica
forkroot@128:

I just posted on the Open Thread, no problem.? Try again.

El Fitcho put in a link to the Tor promo material for ToM with a short synopsis of the book.

http://media.us.macmillan.com/video/olmk/catalogs/fall2010/Tor-Fall2010.pdf

Surprisingly it involves Perrin coming to term with his Leadership!! Just what we've been talking about! Check it out.
Lsana
131. Pierre_the _lurker
forkroot@128:

I kept getting this message using an older computer
on those Mammouth threads. Rebooting would fix it.
T C
132. Freelancer
Tektonica@130

I'm pretty sure that forkroot is referring to the first TGS Open Spoiler thread, the 3,428 comment behemoth with which we had so much fun for those last weeks of the year. It has been unreachable for quite a while, and the hamsters running that thread have been fired, died of starvation, or repurposed. I've submitted notice of this, as I'm sure others have, but so far no improvement. Not yet ready to declare it parrot-level dead yet, though. Perhaps merely pining.
Roger Powell
133. forkroot
Hi Tek
Yeah - I finally got over there because you posted and I followed that link from Latest Posts. Thanks!

Freelancer - I think you are right. The link I was clicking was from the Wheel of Time Master Index that Leigh links to at the top of this post:
Leigh Butler’s Review & Open Spoiler Thread - Giant, massive, book-destroying spoilers within! This is the place to sound off in the comments about the latest installment of the Wheel of Time.
So that's probably the culprit link.
Hugh Arai
134. HArai
Evilmonkey@129:

Just for an example of their legacy, when there is a problem of a mystical nature, one most people cannot deal with, they send in an Aes Sedai to investigate. When someone asks about ancient lore, they are looking to the Aes Sedai.


When you need your nation betrayed to its destruction, you look to the Aes Sedai...

I think we should just agree to disagree on this one.
John Massey
135. subwoofer
Well, heck, I am just going to toss my geek card officially into the ring. And forgive me, this may be a long one- so I am a hippo-crate. But I do press return so it is not a big wall-o-text, but something a bit digestible.

So anyways, back in the day I read Marvel, the X-Men. There was this big debate on if mutants- humans with extra powers should be licensed, tagged and collared. The movies came out with a similar theme. What it boiled down to was free will. These people, in minority, wielding great power, were allowed to walk around unfettered. The debate being, should this be allowed or, to protect humanity from this "threat", should these people be restricted in some way?

Individual freedom vs. safety of the Group.

And the mutants with crummy morals made a case to collar all mutants. And there were the mutants that gave a poo and they battled on the side of right, despite being outcasts and having to deal with the stigma of people they are trying to help scorning them.

So substitute mutant for Aes Sedai.

And the female Aes Sedai have a fetter in the form of the Three Oaths. In other cases it has been taken to the extreme in the form of leashes and collars. Where should the line be drawn? Are folks basically good and trying for the good of all mankind and should be trusted or are folks all basically evil and need to be governed, some more than others?

Woof™.
John Massey
136. subwoofer
Incidentally, does the second oath revolve around men using weapons to carve out a nation or men using Power wrought weapons against those that made them? It would really suck to die at the hands of something you created. Make a balefire yo-yo and die at the hands of some yo-yo master you happened to flip off unknowingly, and can do nothing to stop it.

Woof™.
John Massey
138. subwoofer
And my post was not that long- not like some epic sagas of late, so yay for me:)

Woof™.
Julian Augustus
139. Alisonwonderland
Wetlander @ 121
Rats. I have a great long ramble on Perrin and another on whingeing about the lack of "realism" in WoT, but I don't have time right now. Later.

I am shocked. All this time I have assumed from your writing that you are an American, but this word clearly labels you British! No American I've ever heard would say whingeing instead of whining. What's the deal?
Rob Munnelly
140. RobMRobM
140. I thought the same thing. A fifth column for Merrye Olde England in the Pacific northwest. Just ride down the lift, put your kit in the boot, and celebrate Guy Fawkes for us. R
Sharon E.
141. Sulin
Free@132- Parrot Sketch references FTW!

Sub@-LOL at balefire yo-yos! Now, where can I get one? :D

Edit for: I just read the ToM preview. Woo-hoo!
Alice Arneson
142. Wetlandernw
Alisonwonderland @139 - I just like the word better; it's much more descriptive of what I had in mind. Blame it on too much BBC - Red Dwarf FTW. :) Yes, I'm not only American, I'm totally western as well - born & raised in Montana, now living on the west coast (Seattle). Thanks, though - you made my day, and even got a chuckle out of my husband!

subwoofer @136 - We really don't know any of the circumstances resulting in the second Oath; just that for some reason it seemed necessary to all promise never to use the Power to make a weapon for one man to kill another. For all we know, the situation that triggered it may have been exactly what you suggest - the Aes Sedai realized that a weapon ter'angreal could be used against the White Tower as well, and brightly concluded that it would be a terrible idea to create such things.
Alice Arneson
143. Wetlandernw
I thought since things are slow today, I'd share a few musings on Perrin and some possible whys and wherefores. This definitely does NOT qualify as "a quick comment," ValMar. ;) BTW, the atrocious grammar is intentional, except where it's accidental.

First, a summary of where he's been...

We generally seem to agree that he started out cool. He was the level-headed one, the one who thought things through, the kind one, the one who tried to make sure he didn't hurt people (or at least not unnecessarily). At the same time, he listened to the stories, he dreamed of adventure, and he got that battle-axe because Master Luhhan found him practicing with it, so there was an adventurer lurking deep down inside him all along.

So. Next, all that travelling and the wolf thing, which is cool but don't forget that to match Elyas the well-adjusted, he also met Noam the non-adjusted (wolf in man-skin), and no way of knowing how his own experience will turn out. The ravens, and the question of whether he would have killed Egwene with his axe rather than let her be torn to pieces like that fox. And which would have been the better choice. The Whitecloaks, and the apparently irrevocable death sentence that goes with killing one of them, even in self-defense. Falme, with the Portal-Stone journey, quite possibly with some lives in which he went wolf. The Mountains of Mist winter, Faile, the Stone of Tear, the Ways...

Then we get to the Perrin-defends-Emonds-Field section, where he learned that his family had been murdered - ostensibly by Trollocs, but he knew perfectly well it was the Whitecloaks. Somewhat numb at this point, he pretty much decided what needed to be done and how he was going to do it, which resulted in a whole lot of people deciding he had the right idea and following along. Probably didn't hurt that the Aes Sedai seemed to support him; certainly the older men treated him as a man worthy of respect and equality, apparently because without attempting to tell anyone else what to do, he'd made good plans and generally smart decisions. Quite probably the ta'veren effect came into play, but there's still a basis of well-planned, thoughtful strategy. He didn't see it that way, because he wasn't really thinking of himself at all, but the men with experience and "horse sense" could see that the plans were good ones, so they supported him. Oh, and there's Slayer, the narsty slick git who wears two faces and likes to kill wolves in TAR. Definitely not Team Light material, and a natural enemy to the Wolf King. (Okay, we don't know about that yet.)

So... Two Rivers is defended, Trollocs killed, Whitecloaks driven out, everyone wants to honor the man they perceive as having saved them (though what he really did was lead them in saving themselves), and they really have no idea how to appropriately honor him. But they had that Lord Luc around to give them ideas, and now Mr. Goldeneyes has this beautiful, noble wife to give them more ideas, and they start calling him Lord Perrin. Oh well. But the ta'veren pull forces him to leave what was starting to look comfy, and he arrives at Dumai's Wells (accompanied by half the Two Rivers) just in time to interrupt the Shaido attempt to take Rand from the Tower Aes Sedai, messing things up long enough for the Asha'man to arrive and really mess things up (literally... ewww) and... so on.

On to Cairhien, the staged fight with Rand, the mission to make an alliance with Alliandre (hey, did he do that on purpose? get an alliance with Alliandre?), get Masema under control, and maybe figure out what the deal is with the Aiel rumors. Oh, yeah. And Berelain is coming along on this mission. Yeah. Yippee. Not. And here we are in the reread.

At this point and even as far back as the Battle for Emonds Field, I would argue that Perrin has very thoroughly accepted the responsibilities of leadership and even, largely, the role itself. (He may not like it, but he's accepted it. Note that there are several times in this chapter where he thinks about his responsibility for his men.) What he has NOT accepted is the title of Lord, and the attempts of his former peers and elders to treat him like a Lord (or at least like they think a Lord should be treated). He doesn't see himself as any different than he was when he, Rand, Mat and Egwene left Emonds Field in the first place, except for the wolf thing and the wife, so of course it makes him uncomfortable.

Well then. Onward ho, and all that. Winter hits, Faile is kidnapped, Perrin finds that the Shaido are gathering right there in front of him, Masema the rabid dog trails along foaming at the mouth, Aram the rabid Tinker trails along getting grubbier by the day but as eye-wrenching as ever. Perrin goes all hard-as-stone, thinks he'd ally with the Dark One himself to get Faile back, allies with the Seanchan instead, and knocks everyone's socks off by chopping off the Aiel guy's hand and promising to leave all five captives as footless, handless beggars somewhere unless they gave him answers. Okay, uh... no more Mr. Nice Guy? And the title of that chapter is "What Must Be Done."

Now, I give you a couple of quotations. First, from R.Fife's interview with Alan Romanczuk, after referencing that exact scene:
What is striking about that is not only the surprise in what happened to Perrin’s personality, but the fact that we see the depths of this man who had been operating at an almost emotionless state, or at least with a single, fixed purpose, which was saving his wife. We see him, the peace-loving blacksmith who, just through fate, is thrown into a position of leadership, suddenly do something that is completely out of character, or that we think is out of character, when in fact it is springing from his depths, something that needs to be done. So, in that scene, we see an inkling of Perrin becoming the person that he needs to be to take part in the Last Battle.
Second, from the Tor advertising blurb for Towers of Midnight:
Perrin Aybara is now hunted by specters from
his past: Whitecloaks, a slayer of wolves, and
the responsibilities of leadership. All the
while, an unseen foe is slowly pulling a noose
tight around his neck. To prevail, he must seek
answers in Tel’aran’rhiod and find a way—at
long last—to master the wolf within him or
lose himself to it forever.
I submit for your consideration the following:
Point A: that Slayer killing wolves in TAR might be (part of) the BFC.
Point B: that Perrin required an extremely painful (emotionally, not physically) and long-lasting experience (i.e. Faile's kidnapping), to reach the point where he is able to see certain things as "what must be done" and do them to save someone (Rand? Egwene? Who else?) in the Last Battle.
Point C: that the identity of the "unseen foe" appears to be someone other than Slayer, and might possibly be one of the Forsaken who particularly wants Perrin dead. Or maybe it's just Moridin, who needs Rand alive but wants Mat & Perrin out of the way and unable to help Rand.

So there you have it: my ramble on Perrin for today. I don't think I actually proved anything, which is okay since I didn't really intend to, but maybe I put together some things for y'all to think about. I am seriously looking forward to the release of TofM.

"Whingeing about lack of realism in a fantasy" ramble coming up next time it... comes up.
Brandon Wood
144. brad21088
*steps on soap box*
Ahem. The whole "gays in the WoT" thing disappoints and frustrates me to no end. Honestly? Big time fail. There are women who sleep with other women in the books, and only a handful of those, and it's never outright; rather, it's always veiled comments, like we're in the 50s again and the neighbor's light in his loafers or something. No, his loafers are just fine, he likes men. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things and it doesn't make me love the books any less, but it's sad because of how much more I could love the books. Obviously I don't need same-sex romance in media to have a fulfilling life (I'd've offed myself long ago were that the case), but I have to say, it sure it nice when I read a book or watch a TV show or whatever and I can say, "hey, look: those people are like me." It's not that I can't connect with the straight characters. I know what love feels like and Jordan (sometimes) pulls it off pretty well. The scene with Nynaeve almost drowning and one of her biggest worries being that Lan will see her looking like a hot ass mess? Totally been there. I get it. The fact that Nynaeve is a woman doesn't keep me from connecting with her. Perrin's doing anything to get Faile back? His rage at the Aiel who he thinks hurt her? Definitely get that, and it doesn't matter that Faile's not a man. I connect with the whole "loving so much it hurts, and the thought of someone so much as touching them the wrong way sending you into a frenzy" thing. But, as a gay man, it's nice to see a same-sex relationship every once in a while. I can't explain why; it just is. Yeah, we get the occasional woman-on-woman romp, but never the woman-on-woman relationship (and nothing at all of man-on-man). And that just... kinda sucks, I think. Brandon Sanderson put it nicely in a blog post of his: gay people exist in the world, so why not in fiction? Why not indeed, Mr. Sanderson.
Thomas Keith
145. insectoid
Still on the sidelines, watching paint dry; however, I just read the ToM preview—OMG, cantwaitcantwaitcantwait!! Or, to quote our Fearless Leader: OMG! Moiraine! Squee! :)

edlihs @112: Does the "Oat Rod" have something to do with Bela? ;)

WetNW @121:
I have a great long ramble on Perrin and another on whingeing...
::blinks::
Wait, what? I've never seen that word before. What's it mean? ...Oh, whining. Hmm.

Fork @128: You don't say... Add that to the long list of problems Tor.com has had this year, and uh... make it a holiday wish list or something. ;)

Free @132: LOL!! I just watched that online last week. Though IMO the Ministry of Silly Walks is funnier.

Sub @136: LOL at balefire yo-yos!

Bzzz™.
Hilde Sørensen
146. edlihs
insectoid@145
Does the "Oat Rod" have something to do with Bela? ;)

I'm too afraid to ask... :-) Please don't mind my "komplit lok of speling" (complete luck of spelling). English is not my native tongue.

Wetlandernw@121
I am aware of the at least official explanation of the Oath Rod tradition. But my point was that after the introduction of the Oaths a large (not all!) part seemed to have the mentality that now at least "we are safe and the world can trust us". I am not trying to disregard the benefits that the Oaths gave, but more and more it seems that the benefits are in imbalance with the negative effects.
Valentin M
147. ValMar
Firstly, one last kick at the dead horse- starting a noble house.
My basic point is that if there is a village in the mix of someone being ennobled, more likely it involved it's sacking, not saving. It's just the way the world was set up at the time. That's what my reading experience on the matter tells me. And notice I'm not talking in absolute terms here.

Wetlander@143

Just to make sure, I wasn't being negative re the lenght of your posts. They are like WOT- long but worth the read.
So Seattle. Can't think about it without Frasier in my mind. Nice association. And the nature around it is gorgeous. Maybe it is worth all the rain I hear about over there.
Lsana
148. Kremlok
Freelancer@125:

I, too, was surprised at the mention of "gaydar." A book, called Blink, shows that superficial things such as a "gaydar" should not be taken lightly. Just because someone "seems" to be gay at first glance does not in any sense ensure that he or she is gay. "Gaydar" is just a word similar to racism, in my mind, since it based on a judgement of outward experiences made in the first few moments. Sometimes, those types of judgements can come back to bite you.

Anyway, just my two cents on that issue. Otherwise, good comments!
Lsana
149. kremlok
Sorry...my last post should say "outward appearances" not "experiences."
Tricia Irish
150. Tektonica
Free@132:

Perhaps it was just a dead budgerigar? Thanks for the heads up about the thread.

Sub@136: You need to patent those yo-yo's! And thank you for the collaring vs. oaths post@135. The AS need to find that line....as do the Seanchan.

Wetlandernw, re: Perrin:

Nice synopsis! I'm just now rereading his story line in SR in Emond's Field and it is awesome. I too am looking forward to ToM to see how he resolves the Axe vs. Hammer, Man vs. Wolf, and see him understand T'A'R so he can fight there. I do wonder who the "other" foe tracking him is....forsaken is a good bet, unless Luc is involved as well as Slayer.

PS: Wingeing is a great word! It's almost physical as well as aural.
Tess Laird
151. thewindrose
Tek - Luc + Isam = Slayer;)

I would love to see Perrin learn T'a'R better! Maybe it can be an Egwene bonding moment(not that kind of bonding;)) - they did have an adventure in the beginning together - why not end with one.

ps short = at work:(

tempest™
James Hogan
152. Sonofthunder
Valmart @147, Seattle is indeed gorgeous! I visited the NW this past weekend and did some hiking in Washington and Oregon. Just amazing up there...Houston, TX does not have such sweet mountains. :( I must admit though, my whole time there, the sky was blue. It rains all the time in Seattle? Well, according to my sampling, it NEVER rains. :P Not that I minded.

And wow, I'm off topic.

Go Light!
Alice Arneson
153. Wetlandernw
There's an old song out there...

The bluest skies you've ever seen are in Seattle,
And the hills the greenest green in Seattle...

When we have lovely weather, it's truly lovely, but it really is gray a lot during the winter. :)

thewindrose - I was thinking exactly that when I put "Egwene?" in there - what a parallel that would be.
Karen Jacobs
154. KJacobs
Wetlandernw@143: Well thought out and beautifully presented as always! I have one question for you.... you say "he learned that his family had been murdered - ostensibly by Trollocs, but he knew perfectly well it was the Whitecloaks"... Are we ever actually shown that Perrin thinks Whitecloaks killed his family? WE know that Fain and his Dingycloaks were behind it, but I don't recall Perrin ever having reason to question Master al'Vere's story that trollocs were responsible. Had he truly believed that Whitecloaks were behind the murders, I don't think he would have been able to deal with them as calmly and rationally as he did. Thoughts?
Rob Munnelly
155. RobMRobM
@153. Reminds me of my trip to Ireland.

My wife to her cousin: "Wow, this is such a beautful green."

Cousin: "That's because it rains all the time."
T C
156. Freelancer
The greenest green I've ever seen is on Tonga, closely followed by Maui. And certainly annual rainfall totals are responsible there as well as places such as Tasmania, Vancouver Island, and Seattle. All places I've been, and I'm yet to visit Ireland, the homeland of my ancestry. So perhaps I'll revise my opinion of "the greenest green" when and if I get to see the Emerald Isle.
Marcus W
157. toryx
Wetlandernw @ 143:

As KJacobs points out @154, I don't think that Perrin actually knows that the Whitecloaks killed his family. He's never mentioned it, and none of the Whitecloaks he encountered in the Two Rivers ever admitted to it.

If he did know it was Whitecloaks that killed his family, I think the forthcoming encounter with Galad would go a lot different than it likely shall.
Thomas Keith
158. insectoid
Free @156: I'd certainly like to visit Ireland someday, too. But until then I have my bedroom, which I elected to have painted in two shades of emerald green. ;)

Annnnd I'm up too early again. ::yawns then twitches::

Bzzz™.
Barry T
159. blindillusion
Just jumped over to Amazon to read ToM's blurb. I really just have one comment:
The Last Battle has started. The seals on the Dark One’s prison are crumbling. The Pattern itself is unraveling, and the armies of the Shadow have begun to boil out of the Blight.

The sun has begun to set upon the Third Age.
Now that sent a chill down my spine.

I cannot wait for this book to come out!!
Daniel Goss
160. Beren
KJacobs @154
WE know that Fain and his Dingycloaks were behind it

It always stuck in my mind that it was Bornhold that did that?
And yes, during the scene where Perrin is having his talk with the mayor (where he crushes the brandy cup) doesn't the mayor say something like "he deserves the truth -- that was whitecloaks."?

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure he knows.
-Beren
Ron Garrison
161. Man-0-Manetheran
brad21088@144: Nicely said. Thanks.

Wetlandernw: Terrific, as always. Thanks to you too.

Blurb on ToM: Fired me up! And a final thanks for the link to Tek.
Daniel Goss
162. Beren
Myself@160
Correction, found the passage -- You were right, they think Trollocs did the Aybaras, but they tell him that whitecloaks did the Cauthons and Al'Thor.
There, I admitted I'm wrong. Someone call my wife.
-Beren
Andrew Belmont
163. rosetintdworld
Brad@144: Thank you. I have things I could add, I guess, but there's a new post coming and I don't really feel compelled to right now. But thanks for expressing what you did so evenly and eloquently.
Karen Jacobs
164. KJacobs
Beren @ 160:

I don't have my book with me at work, but I just pulled this from Leigh's TSR Part 10 Reread:
"Flatly, Perrin asks why even Whitecloaks would do such a thing, and Marin tells him it was Trollocs, and there have been several attacks in the countryside; the Whitecloaks are their only real protection." This was right after he's been told that his whole family is gone. So, really, Perrin's original instincts were correct (since he immediately assumed it was Whitecloaks), but he was specifically told that it was trollocs and not Whitecloaks.

Edit for - sorry Beren - you got in your retraction as I was posting! Have your wife log in - we'll all vouch for you! :)
Chin Bawambi
165. bawambi
Free and others:

The thing about Ireland is the depth and breadth of the green - the couple of times I've been there I am just amazed at the design of our eyes in their ability to differentiate nuances we can't really describe.

Also, don't let anyone tell you Irish cooking is bland - the growth of world class cooking schools/restaurants has exploded in the last 20 years - all the food is truly organic without the need for labels or marketing it just is.

Good time to go with the Euro way down too! Hope the Irish travel board gives me a cut LOL
Tricia Irish
166. Tektonica
Various, re: Perrin and the Dingeycloaks:

I don't believe the Whitecloaks are ever named directly, but Perrin knows that Fain is there and that he brings trollocs. He also knows that Fain/Mordeth is in cahoots with the Dingeycloaks...even has a camp in their compound. He knows the Whitecloaks want him dead. "Bait" is mentioned several times in regards to the Luhans and Cauthons that are being held captive in the Whitecloak camp, and Perrin knows they are hunting for him, which is confirmed when ALL the Aybara's are killed, aunts, uncles and cousins. Although the connection is never overt, I do believe Perrin connects the two.

Wind: I'm confused on the Luc/Isam thing. If they different iterations of the same person, one in TAR and one in RL? Is Luc then Slayer in RL?

FWIW: Ireland was the greenest place I've ever been. The whole countryside is emerald, dotted with black and white sheep. Stunning. So beautiful and charming and wonderful people!
Captain Hammer
167. Randalator
Kremlok @148

"Gaydar" is just a word similar to racism, in my mind, since it based on a judgement of outward experiences made in the first few moments. Sometimes, those types of judgements can come back to bite you.

It is only akin to racism if you let it affect your attitude towards someone in a negative way. Just concluding that someone is or isn't gay has no intrinsic value.
Tricia Irish
168. Tektonica
Bawambi@165:

Ditto on the food! Fabulous! All organic, as you say, and innovative and delicious.

Ok, now I"m drooling with my twitching....
Marcus W
169. toryx
Bawambi @ 165:

Good time to go with the Euro way down too!

No kidding! I saw that this morning and started regretting planning a trip out to the US west coast when I could have been going to Ireland or Europe. *sigh*

I agree with you about Irish cooking. For that matter, British cooking has come a long way too. The introduction of so many different flavors over the last few decades has really had a big impact. I eat like crazy whenever I go over there.

Tektonica @ 166 and others:

Ireland truly is amazing with all the greenery. But what I remember to be even more iconically true is the intensity of their rainbows. Holy mackerel, they're amazing. Between that and all the greenery, the rain is totally worth it. Not to mention that the rain's just another fabulous reason to stop at a pub for a pint of some of the best beer in the world.

I still prefer Scotland, though.

By the way...Luc and Isam, together are Slayer. All are one, one are all...Slayer isn't an individual person, it's just the name they/ he has assumed or are known by.
Tess Laird
170. thewindrose
Tektonica - what toryx said. Slayer has the choice of looking like Isam or Luc, but needs to decide this when stepping in and out of T'a'R. He can't be in the real world and change appearances without stepping back into T'a'R (and vice-versa in T'a'R.)

tempest™
Birgit
171. birgit
I'm confused on the Luc/Isam thing. If they different iterations of the same person, one in TAR and one in RL? Is Luc then Slayer in RL?

The Shadow combined Luc and Isam into one creature that the wolves call Slayer.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.

WoT-FAQ explanation of slayer
Birgit
172. birgit
I'm confused on the Luc/Isam thing. If they different iterations of the same person, one in TAR and one in RL? Is Luc then Slayer in RL?

The shadow combined Luc and Isam into one creature that the wolves call Slayer.

The spam filter ate my comment so I'll try again without the link.

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.02_slayer.html
Lsana
173. BenM
Imagine how nasty Slayer would be if he could look like WHOEVER he wanted to be. Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Thom, whoever. Yikes!
Lsana
174. chaplainchris
@114

Re: Masema, until the reveal that he was manipulated by a Forsaken, I always assumed that he'd been infected by Fain, some time off-screen. Consider: Masema's psycho; his crazy is contagious (not only do people join him, but per Perrin they start smelling crazy like him before long); and he's ostensibly a foe of the Dark One, but uses dark tactics and fills people with paranoia, seeing Darkfriends everywhere.

Sure sounds Shadar Logoth-y/Mordeth-y to me. But I guess I was wrong about that.

Of course, I thought So Harbor's paranoia, fear, and dinginess - like the dirtiness of Fain's Whitecloaks and Masema's rabble - was also a sign of Shadar Logoth influence. I don't guess we'll ever know, now, what was really going down in So Harbor that made things so bad.
Tricia Irish
175. Tektonica
Birgit@172, toryx, Wind:

Thanks for trying to set me straight. I read the link (again) and thanks for that, but I'm still mystified, as the writer of the link seems to be as well.

OK, so Luc and Isam have "merged" somehow. One died and one lived and they change bodies/personas in TAR and can appear in either RL or TAR as either person. What??

It's just more accurate to refer to the "new" being as Slayer. Right? My head hurts.

toryx, re: Ireland v. Scotland:

Ireland was never on my top 10 list of places I had to see, but when I got there, I was blown away. I could live there. Beauty, wonderful people, food, heritage...really magical. I liked Scotland too, but I didn't find it as warm and welcoming or as "fey", in the supernatural sense. More warlike in an odd way. Anyway...they're both great. Thankfully the Euro may make Europe affordable again!
Lsana
176. chaplainchris
Ok, just went to Amazon to check the blurb for Towers of Midnight. Some bits of it had already been quoted, and so I didn't get chills from those parts already quoted (which are cool!). Perhaps b/c I knew those parts were coming, I was taken by these two bits:

First sentence: "The Last Battle has started."

Plotz.

And in the middle of the section on Mat and the 'Finn: "He had hoped that his last confrontation with them would be the end of it, but the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills."

I know everybody says it now but Moiraine was the first to use it, and to use it with the most weight, authority, dignity...and ominousness.

Reading it in this context, I immediately went "OMG squee Moiraine!" Not those words...but that emotion. *Despite* knowing it was going to deal w/Moiraine, these confirmations (following phrases: "dance with snakes and foxes...playing a game that cannot be won...fate of a friend long lost...") made me, completely spontaneously and w/o a moment of thought to filter the impulse, break out into applause here at my desk.

Glad I'm the only one here right now. :)
Sam Mickel
177. Samadai
So Harbor was going through the same kind of thing as the village Mat visits where everyone goes crazy and kills everything in site. Just a weakness in the pattern where the Dark ones influence was stronger.
Alice Arneson
178. Wetlandernw
KJacobs @154 - No, in truth I don't believe we're ever given any proof that Perrin's family was really murdered. It was just too convenient that all of the Aybara family was killed, when not that many others were. Maybe it's just my prejudice or expectations, and maybe other whole families were wiped out but we don't hear much about them; ever since my first read I've been convinced that they were murdered and it was made to look like Trollocs had done it. JMHO. It just might have snuck in with inadequate textual support. ;)

RobMRobM @155 - Yup, that's about it. Much the same climate, as I understand it.

Beren @162 - I think that's a large part of what played into my assumption about the Aybaras - they know the Whitecloaks were responsible for the Cauthons, Luhhans and Al'Thor, in part because of the captives. But we know, and they don't, that the Whitecloaks particularly have it in for Perrin Aybara, so I assumed that Bornhald was behind that one too, and just took the lack-of-witnesses opportunity to make it look like the Trollocs did it. Or perhaps the Trollocs came in behind and made it look that way themselves.
Jacy Clark
179. Amalisa
@several re the Aybara family

[quote]The man who called himself Ordeith, even sometimes thought of himself as Ordeith, slunk through the tents of the Children of the Light, watching the white-cloaked men with a wary eye. Useful tools, ignorant tools, but not to be trusted. His eyes skittered hungrily across the tent holding the prisoners. They could wit for a while yet. A little while longer. They were only tidbits anyway. Bait. [b]He should have restrained himself at the Aybara farm, but Con Aybara had laughed in his face and Joslyn had called him a filthy-minded little fool for naming her son Darkfriend. Well, they had learned, screaming, burning. In spite of himself he giggled under his breath. Tidbits.
~~~TSR, Chapter 31, "Assurances" (emphasis mine)

Fain killed the Aybara family. Whether he had his "tame" Whitecloaks do it, or maybe he called in Trollocs, I'm not sure. Although, there was apparently enough left to bury in individual graves, and that would sort of lean more toward men doing the killing, I would think.

Gruesome thought, either way... And I hope that Perrin gets the honor of killing Fain. I really do.

EDIT: It must have been Fain's tame Whitecloaks. He did have a Fade with him, but I don't think he had Trollocs with him this time. (Of course, he did bring them with him when Emond's Field was attacked in TEotW.) For this go 'round, Slayer brought the Trollocs.
Alice Arneson
180. Wetlandernw
Amalisa - thanks so much for finding that!! I was just too pooped to go searching tonight. Thank you, thank you.

So yes, we know that Perrin's family was murdered, but he may not know for sure. As you say, though, the fact that there were individual graves is fairly plain. It should have given him some indication that it was done by men and not Trollocs.
John Massey
181. subwoofer
@Tek- here, this might make things clearer:)

Woof™.
Tricia Irish
182. Tektonica
Thanks Sub@181:

I get the connections family-wise. I just don't understand the mechanism that created Slayer. How/Who merged two people into one? The DO? Why them? Is there any insight on that?
Jacy Clark
183. Amalisa
Okay... so maybe the curse has been lifted. Will edit this post as a double...'kthx. :D
John Massey
184. subwoofer
Oh. Well then, here ya go.Courtesy our Leigh:)


Woof™.
Jacy Clark
185. Amalisa
I cannot begin to express how much I hate the spam filter. I wrote a nice long post in the block with a link and lost it when it was "flagged".

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!

Okay... Tektonica... for you...

I see that subwoofer beat me to the link. Imbedded. *wills her blood pressure to go back down*

Anyway... the mechanism...

The options that come to mind are: deliberate construct created by the DO ~or~ random construct created by a Bubble of Evil ~or~ a creation of the Pattern.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.

I believe that he is a construct of the Dark One. "The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill" indicates that he was created for a purpose. In WH, "Out of Thin Air", he remembers that he was "given many gifts" - like the ability to use T'a'R at will. Someone had to give him that gift, and the DO seems to be the likely choice.

But because I like to consider all the possibilities... :)

We know that the Mountains of Dhoom (hereinafter MoD) are a bad, bad place. Creatures living there are scary to creatures living in the Blight, so that infers that really dark, really bad things happen there. Like supercharged Bubbles of Evil, maybe. So when Lord Luc goes haring off to the Blight and passes through the MoD and encounters Isam, do they get tangled up in a BoE? Voilà, Slayer? The "two as one" isn't without precedent in WoT, of course. There's Lews Therin and Rand for Team Light. There's also Padan Fain and Mordeth, which is more appropriate for this discussion. The latter was also lurking in a bad, bad place - Shadar Logoth - as a spirit who was able to take corporeal form. He just needed a warm body in order to leave. What he didn't count on was that warm body being Padan Fain. Not a BoE or the DO's hand (I don't think he intended that to happen); more a case of possession, but the end result bears some similarities to what happened with Luc and Isam.

The Pattern theory...I think about Gitara Moroso. Well, and all Aes Sedai who can Foretell. I don't know if it has ever been set out specifically this way but, to me, Foretelling is the ability to "read" the Pattern. Some read it clearly (Gitara being an example) and others not so much (Suffaida's Foretelling that she would be the one to reunite the White Tower). If, as theorized, Gitara sent Lord Luc into the Blight, was she "reading" the Pattern? If so, then the Pattern "wanted" (for lack of a better term) Lord Luc to be there. We know from Moiraine that the Pattern is neither good nor evil. From TDR, "Within the Weave":
"The Creator is good, Perrin. The Father of Lies is evil. The Pattern of Age, the Age Lace itself, is neither. The Pattern is what is. The Wheel of Time weaves all lives into the Pattern, all actions. A pattern that is all one color is no pattern. For the Pattern of an Age, good and ill are the warp and the woof."
The Pattern needed Luc and Isam to be combined because the Pattern was putting the pieces on the game board, so to speak. All in preparation for the great conflict to come...

Again, however, I'm going with the Dark One as having taken a direct hand in the creation of Slayer.
Tricia Irish
186. Tektonica
Thank you Amalisa for your thorough theorizing...try to say that quickly. I think you've laid all the options on the table. I too hope we find out the "mechanism" that made Slayer, as it's a pretty novel construct in this world, and we were certainly given the head up about Fain/Mordeth. Thanks!

And Sub...thanks again for the link.

You guys are great!
Lsana
187. Delafina
"It's almost like we have this cellular desire for a Good King to make things right and just"

I love it. Too true. The Lord does provide ; )


Ugh, not all of us. Child-citizens want a king to come along and take care of them. Adults want to fix things themselves and write their own destinies.
Theresa Gray
188. Terez27
For further Slayer theorizing...I agree that he is important to the Pattern, and I have been wondering for some time what importance he will play in the end game. It's been theorized for years that Rand's blood on the rocks will actually be Luc's blood, and though I've always considered that to be a loony theory and a cheap way for Rand to make his 'sacrifice'...now that I believe Rand will die before winning the Last Battle, and be resurrected for the business at Shayol Ghul, it's starting to look more likely to me.

Also, if Slayer's talents are to come into play anywhere, then it makes sense that something important is going to happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. Since I think that Rand will die and be ripped out, then it makes sense to me that he will be in danger during that time. The Heroes can supposedly hide from anyone, but if Nynaeve finds Rand with Need, both she and he will likely be vulnerable at that time (recall Amys' horror story about searching blind, and there being no way to be careful). This could have something to do with why it is important for Perrin to master the wolf dream. It's also a candidate for Perrin's second time he has to be there for Rand (though I've been arguing lately that this is Caemlyn; Perrin already feels the pull that he felt before Dumai's Wells).
Lsana
189. alreadymadwithgaydar
Freelancer @132
So it's only mostly dead. Not all dead yet.

Kremlok @148
Not all personal characteristics are taken note of consciously. Some are just there, but you have to really focus your attention to pinpoint them and these "hidden" characteristics sometimes point toward that person's inclinations. This is where "gaydar" comes from. It's actually a part of the same set of first impressions that you get from a person that allows you to determine how to best deal with them. There's nothing inherently racist about that. I'd love to say we pay equal attention to all people we come across all day. But the fact of the matter is, we categorize, sort and filter the people we meet day to day. The racist and discriminatory part comes in when you target a person for hostility just on the basis of your first impressions alone without giving that person a chance to prove his or her worth.

On the spamfilter:
The only time I came across it was when I tried to post on two different threads simultaneously.
Tina Murrah
190. Tina.Murrah
I'll admit I didnt read all of the comments, but I browsed.

LB: If that is what she meant, though, I’m just a tad puzzled as to how exactly Sulin would know this. I’m just having trouble buying that either Seonid or Masuri would have been in the habit of confiding their personal romantic profiles to Sulin. Or any other Aiel. Or, actually, anyone not Aes Sedai. And probably not most of them, either. So how did Sulin know, if that’s what she meant?

Can't dreamwalkers spy on other peoples' dreams? I recall Egwene doing it quite a lot. Perhaps Seonid was having very loud sexy dreams like Gawin... just a thought.
Lsana
191. msjanic
As I am posting this wayyyyyyy after the first post I can't claim to have read all the previous posts (as there are a freckin' lot of them). RE: Perrin's lord or no thingy....As a mom I really feel for Perrin, yes there persuasive arguments for him taking on the responsiblity of leadership as that is what has been given. But would Perrin be happy being a king or lord? I don't think so. I would hope that he does the Last Battle thing (survives) and can go back to being a blacksmith. I know that is highly unlikely, but a mom can hope.
Cynthia Ahmar
192. tenkuu
It's funny how different relationships in relation to ranks are in Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth. Pretty much everyone who knows Richard continues to treat him as a friend moreso than as a lord. Perhaps it has something to do with the way each character accepts the leadership they're saddled with, and their attitudes towards it.
Theresa Gray
193. Terez27
tenkuu@192 - I rather got the impression that everyone who knows Richard treats him like he is made of pure awesome and they all want nothing more than to fan his reclining perfection, feeding him grapes and sucking his toes. Unless, of course, they are treating him like an idiot because the plot requires it, despite the fact that he always so miraculously solves all of their problems with his amazing intellect and prophetic derring-do.

Subscribe to this thread

Receive notification by email when a new comment is added. You must be a registered user to subscribe to threads.
Post a comment