Fri
May 7 2010 3:21pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Path of Daggers, Part 5

Happy suddenly summer, Wheel of Timers! This a-here is a Wheel of Time Re-read, in case it wasn’t screamingly obvious. Which it was. So THERE.

Today’s entry covers Chapters 7 and 8 of The Path of Daggers, in which we have a rather unexpected Moment of Awesome, as well as a Great And Possibly Completely Erroneous Epiphany. Hark!

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of information regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And that’s about the size of that, so click on for postally posted postage!


Chapter 7: A Goatpen

 

 

What Happens
Sweating in the heat, Perrin wonders if it is ever going to rain again as he studies the walled and heavily guarded town of Bethel through a looking glass, which is flying the flag of Queen Alliandre Maritha Kigarin. Alliandre has taken refuge here from the chaos sweeping Ghealdan, from the Prophet’s army to Whitecloaks raiding from over the Amadician border to common bandits; Perrin thinks of the rumors he’s heard, that Amador had fallen, though no one is sure to whom, and that Pedron Niall is dead. Perrin considers going in alone with just a few men, and Faile seems to read his mind, as she comes up to him and points out that he would never reach Alliandre without announcing who he is, when secrecy was supposed to be the entire point. Perrin knows she thinks she should go; she’s previously argued that her family name would get her through to Alliandre without a lot of fuss. Berelain comes up on his other side, drenched in perfume, and puts in that she thinks she should be the one to go, since it is the entire reason she came in the first place (Perrin rather doubts this), and Annoura will be admitted immediately so no one will know who Berelain is except Alliandre. Perrin notices that Seonid, who is sitting her horse a little way away, is staring at the sky, and her two Wise One keepers (Edarra and Nevarin) are doing the same. He asks if they see something, but Edarra says no; Perrin hopes she is being honest, and wishes the Asha’man, Grady and Neald, were there, as he is sure they would be.

More than half a week ago, now, a lace of the One Power streaking high across the sky had created quite a stir among the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones. And with Grady and Neald. Which fact had made a bigger stir still, as close to panic as any Aes Sedai was likely to come. Asha’man, Aes Sedai and Wise Ones all claimed they could still feel the Power faintly in the air long after that bar of lace vanished, but nobody knew what it meant. Neald said it made him think of wind, though he could not tell why. No one would voice more of an opinion than that, yet if both the male and female halves of the Power were visible, it had to be the Forsaken at work, and on a huge scale. Wondering what they were up to had kept Perrin awake late most nights since.

Nevarin demands to know if Perrin’s decided yet, and also what use their advice is if he doesn’t take it; Perrin thinks that choosing Seonid to go would give him an out re: Faile and Berelain, but is still unsure if he can trust Seonid. They are interrupted by Seonid’s Warders, Furen and Teryl, who have returned to report (to Seonid, ignoring everyone else) that all the local nobles are holed up just as Alliandre is, leaving the countryside to the Prophet and the bandits; Teryl thinks Alliandre will be thrilled to see a sister. Seonid gets permission to speak from Edarra (looking very irritated about having to do so), and argues to Perrin that having it appear to Alliandre that he has the Tower behind him will be more effective than either Saldaean nobility or a ruler of a tiny country like Mayene; Edarra adds that she and Nevarin will accompany Seonid to make sure she doesn’t say anything she shouldn’t (Perrin can hear Seonid’s teeth grinding). Perrin groans to himself that having the Wise Ones along will not help at all, considering the rumors flying around about Aiel, and reluctantly tells Berelain and Annoura that they will go. Berelain laughs and caresses his arm suggestively before he can stop her, but Perrin thinks Faile didn’t notice, as she only smells of disappointment. When he tries to apologize to Faile, though, she becomes outraged, though only Perrin can tell, and rides off. Berelain and Annoura listen impatiently to Perrin’s instructions, and he watches them ride off with worry; they are admitted with haste at the gates once Annoura shows her face. As Perrin rides back toward camp with the rest of the party, he tries to figure out why it was only after he tried to apologize that Faile had grown angry, when he’d been sure choosing Berelain would be what angered her.

Without Berelain, everything ran smooth as silk satin between them. Most of the time. But explanations that he did nothing to encourage the woman—far from it!—earned only a curt “Of course you don’t!” in tones that called him a fool for bringing it up. But she still grew angry—with him!—every time Berelain smiled at him or found an excuse to touch him, no matter how brusquely he put her off, and the Light knew he did that. Short of tying her up, he did not know what more he could do to discourage her. Ginger attempts to find out from Faile what he was doing wrong received a light “Why do you think you’ve done anything?” or a not-so-light “What do you think you’ve done?” or a flat “I do not want to talk about it.” He was doing something wrong, but he could not puzzle out what! He had to, though. Nothing was more important than Faile. Nothing!

Aram then points out a farm up ahead which is on fire, and Perrin sees a dozen or so roughly dressed men are trying to force their way into a high-walled goatpen, where three mounted women and a handful of men are trying to keep them out. Seonid advises him to leave it alone, pointing that killing the Prophet’s men will not help his task, but Perrin has no intention of leaving it, and asks Edarra if she can do something to “just frighten” the attackers, and she answers maybe. Perrin snaps for Aram, Furen and Teryl to go with him and takes off toward the farm; he is relieved that the Warders obey, but not that Faile decides to come along as well. He knows better than to say anything, though, and instead makes covert gestures to Aram to guard her. They are almost to the brigands when a monstrous clap of thunder and a wailing wheel of fire scatters them, to Perrin’s relief, but one of the women in the goatpen takes off too, galloping up the road. Perrin chases her, shouting that he means her no harm, and eventually catches up and grabs her horse’s bridle, asking forgiveness if he frightened her.

For the second time that day an apology did not get the response he expected. Angry blue eyes glared at him from a face surrounded by long red-gold curls, a face as regal as any queen’s for all that it was plastered with sweat and dust. Her dress was plain wool, travel-stained and as dusty as her cheeks, but her face was furious as well as queenly.

She starts to tell him off, but is interrupted by one of the other women, white-haired and bony, who gallops up and thanks Perrin, calling him “my Lord”. She starts at his eyes, but gets over it quickly and begins chastising the first woman, who she calls Maighdin, for running off. Maighdin accepts the tirade wearily, and Perrin notes that she doesn’t smell afraid of him even when she notices his eyes too. One of the others of the group comes up, a tall man with a wary scent, and Perrin realizes the wariness is directed at Maighdin, not him. He’s not sure what’s going on, but invites them to come back to his camp where they will be safe from brigands. Maighdin smells resigned, but refuses his offer politely, quashing the old woman, Lini, when she starts to say something; Perrin is further confused about their relationship.

Perrin glanced over his shoulder at the man trailing after. A hard-looking fellow, in need of a razor. Perhaps he liked fair hair. Perhaps he liked it too much. Men had made trouble for themselves as well as others for that reason before this.

Back at the goatpen, Teryl has captured one of the Prophet’s men, who informs Perrin that he’ll be “in deep muck” for this when the Prophet finds out; they were only obeying the Prophet’s orders, which is that if a man bothers a woman who doesn’t want him, he dies. He insists that the others were chasing Maighdin, and the Prophet will “have their ears” for this. Maighdin calmly says the man is mistaken, but Perrin is not so sure. The rest of her party, three more men and another woman, are approaching, but Perrin is distracted by the sight of Seonid, who has a scarf stuffed in her mouth; evidently the Wise Ones were not pleased that she had spoken out of turn earlier. Maighdin notices too; her mouth drops open and she gives Perrin a considering look, and Perrin thinks it a bit odd that a country woman evidently recognizes an Aes Sedai on sight. Teryl then tosses a bundle on the ground which he says their prisoner dropped. Perrin belatedly recognizes what the “tags of shriveled leather” are and snarls, recalling the man’s statement about “having their ears”. The man protests the trophies were someone else’s, not his, and nervously proclaims that the Prophet will hang them all if they do anything to him. Perrin gets up in the man’s face, making him shrink back in fear.

“If I could tie that to you, you’d hang from the nearest tree,” he growled. The fellow blinked, began to brighten as he understood what that meant, but Perrin gave him no time to regain his bluster. “I’m Perrin Aybara, and your precious Lord Dragon sent me here. You spread the word. He sent me, and if I find a man with… trophies… he hangs! If I find a man burning a farm, he hangs! If one of you looks at me cross-eyed, he hangs! And you can tell Masema I said so, too!” Disgusted, Perrin straightened. “Let him go, Teryl. If he isn’t out of my sight in two shakes…!”

The man takes off in a dead run, and Perrin is disgusted with himself for his threats, though Faile’s look of pride does much to assuage that. The others are not so thrilled, though Seonid can’t say so. The Wise Ones glare, and Teryl comments casually that he thought Perrin wasn’t supposed to let Masema know he was here until they met in person.

“I’m supposed to stop… that,” Perrin said, gesturing angrily to the rawhide string on the ground. He had heard the rumors, and done nothing. Now he had seen. “I might as well start now.” And if Masema decided he was an enemy? How many thousands followed the Prophet, out of belief or fear? It did not matter. “It stops, Teryl. It stops!”

The Murandian nodded slowly, eyeing Perrin as though seeing him for the first time.

Maighdin suddenly pipes up, and Perrin expects her to say she’s leaving, after overhearing who he works for, but to his surprise she tells him they accept his offer to rest in his camp. He nods, slowly, wondering if this is ta’veren work, for he recognizes two of the men in her party.

Commentary
Hokay. First, the obligatory headdesk:

*headdesk*

Ah, refreshing.

However, since Berelain leaves almost immediately, this actually wasn’t a bad chapter otherwise. Perrin even has a Moment of Awesome when he scares the crap out of the Prophet’s henchman. I have to say I enjoyed that quite a bit.

One of my—well, the only term I’m coming up with here is “kink”, and that’s not correct, but it’s close enough for horseshoes—one of my things that particularly make me happy in fiction is things like this, where two previously unrelated groups/plotlines/characters meet up unexpectedly, as Morgase and Perrin’s do here, and the whole dynamic of the story changes as a result. It’s just fun, sez me.

What I especially love about these plotline collisions is how they afford an opportunity to see familiar characters and/or situations through fresh eyes, and thereby gain a possibly unexpected perspective on those characters or situations. I guiltily love these collisions even more when, as here, we get to see the ways in which Our Heroes are badass and/or awesome that they themselves do not see on their own.

I last remarked on this in ACOS, I think, during the whole bit where Rand dethroned Colavaere, and how that scene reminded us of how very scary Rand is in the eyes of those who don’t know him even though we saw it through the eyes of someone who does know him (Perrin, in fact). And I ain’t gonna lie, I loved it.

So, too, here. Even though this chapter is from Perrin’s POV, it’s very easy to see how he is coming off in the eyes of Morgase/Maighdin and Co., and that is not an image of some bumbling jumped-up blacksmith (which is how Perrin thinks of himself), but of a very formidable and intimidating figure indeed. And again, I somewhat ashamedly adore it.

As for his inadvertent spilling of the beans re: his purpose to Masema by proxy, enh. I don’t really remember how all this goes (though I certainly remember how it ends), but I say, let the idiot know what’s coming for him. Maybe he’ll actually sweat a little; and if not, in the end I don’t see it making a lot of difference. Nor do I think it did, except possibly in speeding up the whole process, which is nothing but full of Yay in my opinion.

And plus Perrin was right to do it. Ears? Gah. Goddamn little slime.

As for the Faile/Berelain thing, please see the commentary to the next chapter, in which I have an epiphany!


Chapter 8: A Simple Country Woman

What Happens
The camp is in a secluded area, but Perrin knows that a small army moving around had to have generated rumors in the area even before he went and spilled the beans just now; he thinks he still would not have done differently, though. The camp is actually three camps, one for the Mayeners, one for the Aiel, and one for the Two Rivers men. Perrin sees Masuri glaring at him from the Aiel camp; Seonid (still gagged) looks anxious, but the Wise Ones look at him darkly, and Perrin sighs. He notes that Maighdin obviously recognizes the Mayeners’ uniforms, and thinks that she seems familiar somehow. He also sees Balwer noting the camp, and thinks that despite his appearance he sees even more than Maighdin does; the man makes him think of “a wolf testing the air”. The rest of her companions hang back. Perrin sees Grady and Neald are with the Two Rivers camp, watching him expectantly, and he thinks that they make him even more uneasy than the Wise Ones or Aes Sedai together. Servants come to take the horses, and Perrin grumbles to himself about having to let them curtsy to him, as well as the ostentatious tent he and Faile had. Then he notices the wolfshead banner and the Red Eagle banner are out again despite his orders to the contrary, and growls to himself. Maighdin has noticed them too, and says she’s heard about banners like these, raised in rebellion in the Two Rivers against Andor, and comments that Aybara is a Two Rivers name. She smells angry, and Perrin growls that they don’t know much about “lawful rulers” in the Two Rivers, since they mostly had to fend for themselves. He realizes that she reminds him of Elayne, then, but doesn’t attach any importance to this. Supposing she is Andoran, though, he tries to soothe her by telling her the Dragon Reborn means to put Morgase’s daughter Elayne on the throne, but to his surprise this infuriates Maighdin, who informs him icily that no man puts a queen on Andor’s throne, and Elayne will earn it by her right. Lini jumps in:

“You apologize!” the old woman barked. “This man saved your life, Maighdin, and you forget yourself, a simple country woman speaking so to a lord! Remember who you are, and don’t let your tongue land you in hotter water! If this young lord was at odds with Morgase, well, everyone knows she’s dead, and it’s none of your affair in any event! Now apologize before he grows angry!”

Perrin expects Maighdin to blow up at Lini, but to his surprise she apologizes humbly, even though her teeth are grinding, and he hastily accepts, wondering if women are all crazy. Faile proposes that she take the women off to clean themselves up, and the men go with Aram to do the same. Perrin nods, and adds that when Master Gill is done he’d like to talk to him.

He might as well have made that spinning wheel of fire. Maighdin whipped around to gape at him, and the other two women froze in their tracks. Tallanvor was suddenly gripping his sword hilt again, and Balwer rose on his toes, peering over his bundle, head tilting this way then that. Not a wolf, perhaps; some sort of bird, watching for cats. The stout man, Basel Gill, dropped his belongings and leaped a foot in the air.

Gill stammers a greeting, saying he’d thought with everyone calling Perrin lord he wasn’t sure he’d want to know “an old innkeeper”. Lamgwin then greets Perrin laconically, saying they’d heard about “young Rand” being the Dragon Reborn, and that he should have guessed Perrin would come up in the world too. He tells Maighdin that Perrin is a good man, and that he thinks they can trust him “with anything you’ve a mind to”. The two groups go off very reluctantly, and Perrin notes that Gill smells afraid.

Of him? Of a man tied to the Dragon Reborn, calling himself lord and leading an army, however small, threatening the Prophet. Might as well throw gagging Aes Sedai into it, too; he would take the blame for that, one way or another. No, Perrin thought wryly; nothing in that to frighten anybody. The whole lot of them were probably afraid he might murder them all.

He tries to put Gill at ease, chatting about his time with him in Caemlyn, but it isn’t working, and finally Perrin says he wanted to ask what brought him to Ghealdan. Before Gill can say anything, Lini barges in and admonishes an exasperated Gill to tell it straight and not go telling the young lord “more than he wants to hear”. She and Gill tell Perrin their story about how they all met up while Gill was trading wine in Murandy and have been running from “the troubles” ever since. Perrin grimaces at himself for wondering if their story is true, but Gill takes his silence as a demand for more information, and begins babbling nervously; when he mentions leaving Amador after the Seanchan took the city, a shocked Perrin grabs his collar and demands to know if he’s sure it was Seanchan. Uneasily, Gill confirms it, and Perrin is dismayed that they are back so soon; he thinks that if they have Amador, they surely have Tarabon too. He tells Gill that he can’t send him back to Caemlyn yet, but if he stays a while he’ll see to it. Lini studies Perrin, and suddenly declares she thinks he’s a good man, and should know the whole truth. Gill nearly panics, but then Lini informs Perrin that Maighdin was running from them—specifically, from Tallanvor.

“Well, it’s no wonder she doesn’t know her own mind half the time; you men snarl up a woman’s wits so she can hardly think, then you pretend you’ve done nothing at all. The lot of you ought to have your ears boxed on general principle. The girl’s afraid of her own heart! Those two should be married, and the quicker the better.”

Gill and Perrin both gape at her, and Perrin says he’s not sure what she’s getting at. Lini answers that since this Dragon Reborn does whatever he wants, she wants Perrin to marry them, with or without permission. Perrin stares, then makes a hasty excuse and leaves, deciding that women are all crazy. He heads to his tent, which is surrounded by twenty of Faile’s hangers-on, who almost challenge him before letting him pass, and he growls to himself about their Aiel-imitating idiocy. He goes inside to find Faile and Maighdin having very cautious tea with each other, and tells Maighdin that Gill told him their story, and assures her that she’s safe here. She smells wary in response; Faile agrees with Perrin, and offers Maighdin and her party places in her service, promising them fair pay and treatment. Maighdin chokes on her tea, but then strangely turns to look at Perrin thoughtfully, before accepting. She asks permission to leave, which Faile gives. Faile laughs in delight when she is gone, commenting that she has spirit, and would have “singed [Perrin’s] beard” over those banners if Faile hadn’t rescued him.

Perrin grunted. Just what he needed; another woman to singe his beard.

He tells her that Lini had asked him to marry Maighdin and Tallanvor, and also that the Seanchan have invaded Amadicia; to his consternation, Faile is more interested in the former news at first, but then reassures him that Amador is a long way away, and she is confident that Perrin can handle whatever arises.

“After all, you taught me to perch on your wrist, didn’t you?” That was what she claimed, though he had never seen any sign of it.

“They might be a touch more difficult than you were,” he said dryly, and she smiled again. She smelled extremely pleased, for some reason.

They argue briefly about the wisdom of contacting Rand with the news about the Seanchan, but Faile convinces Perrin that Rand surely knows already, and Perrin moves on to the banners, vowing this time he’ll burn them. Faile advises against this, pointing out that anyone who hears a man is going around raising the banner of Manetheren in rebellion will not think that man is doing anything else. Vastly impressed by her quick thinking, Perrin agrees, but adds that Alliandre will need to know the truth. Faile becomes wary at the mention of Alliandre, and reassures him that the Queen of Ghealdan is “a netted bird” for Perrin Goldeneyes.

If only he were half what she thought him. Alliandre was a netted bird, the Seanchan would fall over like dolls for Perrin Goldeneyes, and he would snatch up the Prophet and take him to Rand if Masema had ten thousand men around him. Not for the first time he realized that however much her anger hurt and confused him, it was her disappointment he feared. If he ever saw that in her eyes, it would rip the heart out of his chest.

He vows not to fail her, and they begin studying maps.

Faile waits until Perrin is deeply asleep before getting up, amused that he thought she wouldn’t figure out that he had arranged to “lose” their bed (which he had considered ostentatious), and wonders if her mother had found the art of managing a husband this difficult.

She loved Perrin with every fiber of her being, and he confused every fiber. Actually understanding men was impossible, of course, but he was so unlike anyone she had grown up with. He never swaggered, and instead of laughing at himself, he was . . . modest. She had not believed a man could be modest! He insisted that only chance had made him a leader, claimed he did not know how to lead, when men who met him were ready to follow after an hour. He dismissed his own thinking as slow, when those slow, considering thoughts saw so deeply that she had to dance a merry jig to keep any secrets at all. He was a wonderful man, her curly-haired wolf. So strong. And so gentle.

She sneaks out of the tent and heads through the camp, coming upon Maighdin and her companions; Tallanvor is arguing fiercely with Maighdin about something, but they all jump up when they hear Faile’s approach. She tries to put them at ease, but they remain wary as she moves on; Faile dismisses them to worry about later and heads to a secluded clearing where her people are waiting. Some of them bow or curtsy before catching that as non-Aiel-like, and Faile thinks that Perrin is right in some ways to consider them fools, but they had sworn fealty to her, which is the important thing. They had seen the importance of keeping their name for their “society” (Cha Faile, or the Falcon’s Talon) secret, though. The ones she had sent to Bethal are changing out of their disguises, the women trying to pretend they don’t mind being half-clothed in front of everyone and the men trying to pretend they don’t notice. Faile is annoyed that she couldn’t go herself instead of “that trollop”, but steers her mind away from it.

No, she would not think about Berelain. It was not Perrin’s fault. She repeated that to herself twenty times a day, like a prayer. But why was the man so blind?

Selande, the acknowledged leader of Cha Faile, reports that everyone in Bethel is petrified of the Prophet; Alliandre makes regular tours of the town to keep the people’s spirits up, but it isn’t really working, and in Selande and Meralda’s opinion, if Masema were to actually show up, the townsfolk would likely surrender immediately. Selande also has maps of the palace where Alliandre is staying, though she doesn’t know why Faile wanted them, and confirms that no one searches wagons leaving the town. Faile tells them they have done well, and tells them they will return to Bethal at first light, and explains what she wants them to do; they are shocked by her instructions, but all only say they live to serve Lady Faile.

And that meant they would serve her beloved wolf, whether he wanted them to or not.

Maighdin lies awake in her blankets, trying to reconcile herself to her new name and the new life it signifies, and notes the Lady Faile returning to camp. She thinks that Faile’s husband may not be nobly-born, but Faile certainly is, and her youth and inexperience may be of benefit to Maighdin. She catches her breath as Tallanvor kneels by her side (shirtless), and asks what this madness of taking service is all about. She tries to turn away, but Tallanvor puts a hand on her shoulder, which stops her, and she answers that a lady’s maid is better than a tavern maid; she has to make her way in the world now, and he is free to ride on if he doesn’t like it. He replies she abdicated her throne, not her wits, and Maighdin curses Lini for revealing that.

Angrily she sat up, brushing his hand away. “Are you blind, and deaf as well? The Dragon Reborn has plans for Elayne! Light, I wouldn’t like it if he simply knew her name! It must be more than chance that brought me to one of his henchmen, Tallanvor. It has to be!”

Tallanvor angrily says he knew that was why, and tells her Elayne is safe in the Tower, and no one will let her near the Dragon Reborn, and in any case there’s nothing Maighdin Dorlain can do about any of it except get herself killed. Maighdin retorts that she can watch and listen, but trails off. She realizes she is only in a shift and pulls the blankets around her, flushing, and says any chance to help Elayne is worth the risk. Tallanvor thinks it is dangerous, pointing out how Aybara threatened to hang anyone for looking at him wrong; he says he can believe it of a man with eyes like that, “like a beast”. If Aybara finds out who she is, or if Balwer decides to betray her… Maighdin pretends to be contemptuous of his fear of Perrin, though she shares it, and tells him again to ride on, then.

“Ride on if you wish, you say. Once, there was a soldier loved a queen from afar, knowing it was hopeless, knowing he could never dare speak. Now the queen is gone, and only a woman remains, and I hope. I burn with hope! If you want me to leave, Maighdin, say it. One word. ‘Go!’ A simple word.”

She tries to make herself say it, but cannot, and Tallanvor leans over and kisses her eyes before standing; she watches him wide-eyed. He tells her if she’d said the word, he would have buried hope, but he could never leave her. He goes away, and she berates herself that he is too young, and worse, he is right.

A lady’s maid could do nothing to affect events, and if the Dragon Reborn’s wolf-eyed killer learned that he had Morgase of Andor in his hands, she could be used against Elayne instead of helping her. He had no right to be right when she wanted him to be wrong! The illogic of that thought infuriated her. There was a chance she might do some good! There had to be!

A voice in her head mocks her for being unable to give up being Morgase, and for being unable to give up a man just because of how he makes her feel, either. She tells herself she will put Tallanvor in his place, but realizes she no longer knows what that place is.

Commentary
So, I kind of just had a revelation here, which may be wrong, but if it is right, puts a completely different light on the whole Faile/Perrin headdesk-ness, and I’m kind of all “whoa” over here.

My possibly-wrong revelation is this: I don’t think Faile knows that Perrin is aware of how angry she is all the time.

See, it occurs to me that while Faile definitely knows about Perrin’s super-hearing and vision, and may even know that his sense of smell is also more than ordinary, I can’t recall any point at which she indicates knowing that his sense of smell basically makes him empathic.

Which, honestly, is a quite the leap to make. If I may digress for a moment, I’ve thought before about pointing out that Perrin’s emotion-detecting nose is one of the most blatant examples of Star-Trekkery in WOT—by which I mean, the handwaving of more or less accurate scientific principles to extrapolate effects far beyond the realistic bounds of those principles in the real world. In this case, the maybe kinda sorta truth that animals can smell fear, extrapolated into an olfactory ability that can detect any emotion at all, even to fine gradations like the difference between puzzlement and irritation and so on. Which is, in a word, impossible.

I’m not really knocking it, however, because (a) It’s The Magic, Stupid, (b) it’s an extremely common (possibly even ubiquitous) side-effect of super-smell abilities in fiction, and thus one of those illogical logical things that people just expect at this point, and (c) it’s cool.

And (d), it’s the only way Perrin would have a clue about 99% of what the hell is with the people around him anyway, so it gets a pass under the “whatever moves the plot forward” caveat.

That being said, though, I don’t think it’s something a non-genre-savvy character (like Faile) would necessarily deduce without being specifically told about it. Which, to my knowledge, she never is.

This occurred to me when I read Faile’s POV in this chapter, and she thought this:

It was not Perrin’s fault. She repeated that to herself twenty times a day, like a prayer.

Which is in striking contrast to Perrin’s assumption that that’s exactly what it means every time she gets angry—that it is his fault. And of course Perrin is right to a degree—she does get angry at him and not Berelain, which certainly implies that she thinks it is his fault—but the thing is, if she doesn’t know that he can completely tell she’s pissed, it’s not actually an attack on him or an attempt to blame him or make him feel bad. In fact it’s the opposite; from her point of view, (most of the time) she’s hiding her feelings perfectly, and not giving Perrin any cause for stress at all.

That, as I say above, puts a wholly different interpretation on her refusal to tell him what’s wrong. If I’m right and she doesn’t know he smells her anger, then what she’s doing is not getting mad and then refusing to tell him why, which is infuriatingly juvenile behavior, but rather believing that she is hiding any sign of her anger from him altogether.

Which, granted, is still not stellar relationship-management, but definitely casts Faile in an astronomically more charitable light than I had previously seen her. I dunno, maybe everyone was aware of this and I’m just stupid for not seeing it before, but I think I had always made the assumption that Faile knew Perrin knew she was pissed, and was basically, like, brandishing her anger-smell at him in petulant accusatory fashion. But if that’s not the case, it’s much harder to blame her for not controlling her emotions when (if I’m right) she’s not even aware she needs to. Beyond outward facial expressions, I mean.

I’m not sure if this is making sense, but, there you have it. This doesn’t mean I’m giving Faile a total pass on all this, since she still ought to be communicating clearly with her husband about her feelings, and additionally even a guy with no sense of smell at all would have twigged by now to the fact that Faile is not exactly thrilled with the whole situation (especially since she has blown up verbally at him before now), but it does at least mitigate my annoyance at her to a certain degree.

We’ll see how well that charity holds up as this plotline trundles on. And, of course, if someone comes along with a quote that proves Faile knows about the Empathicness of Perrin’s nose and blows my whole theory out of the water, well, that’s something different again.

In other news, I wonder if I figured out here if Faile was planning to kidnap Alliandre or if that was sufficiently obscure at this point that I had no idea. Can’t remember, oh well.

In other other news, the fresh-perspective coolness continues, though I was a little startled to hear Perrin described as a “henchman” and a “wolf-eyed killer”, because wow. But, not unreasonable under the circumstances. I remember at this point being all impatient for Tallanvor et al to become as equally impressed by Perrin as they are currently intimidated. Because intimidated is vicarious fun, and all, but naturally I also want them to realize he’s awesome as well as scary.

The thing with Basel Gill I especially loved, mostly because of how they all clearly assumed that Perrin had deliberately waited to drop the bomb on them that he knew who Gill was for greatest psychological impact, when of course Perrin was doing no such thing. Again, I am always fascinated by this dynamic of how an outside perspective can have such a radically different interpretation of the point of view character’s actions and motivations.

As for Morgase (or Maighdin, as I suppose we must start calling her, at least for the nonce), sigh. She hurts my heart, I swear. I just want to fix her. Or alternately, make Perrin take Lini up on the marriage thing, even considering how insanely that goes against the grain. (Really, not in favor of forced/arranged marriages! And yet!) And the crazy thing is, this scene with Tallanvor at the end of the chapter actually represents progress. I really hope Morgase’s character manages to get some kind of redemption/closure before all is said and done, because I really don’t want to always feel nothing but pity for her.


Aaaannnd that’s what I got for this one, kiddies. Have a splendiferously fantabular weekend, and I’ll see you next week!

282 comments
Rob Munnelly
1. RobMRobM
I enjoy these two chapters. Here's a question - why the heck did Morgase try to get away by herself from a band of people rescuing her and why did she act like a grump when Perrin reeled her in gently? I've never understood that.

R

Edit - first post!
Andrew Belmont
2. rosetintdworld
Oy, the Plotline officially begins.

And yet, Leigh...

You managed to make fairly tedious chapters with Elayne bearable (not that the last two were tedious at all,) and here you've managed to make two fairly infuriating chapters ENJOYABLE. How do you do it?

I for one had never thought of Faile's possible ignorance. It is possible that someone will contradict it, but I like it. As you say, if she recognizes that Perrin has a cultural blindspot and that she shouldn't be angry with him, and is doing everything she can to remind herself of this and NOT be angry with them, then, well. I really can't find fault with her at all. (And people here will, I'm sure--but I challenge them to say that they've never tried really hard not to be angry with their significant other...and then gotten angry anyway.)

The one thing I did love about the Plotline was how Morgase tied into it. Not that I relish the opportunity for her to endure more punishment (Oh Lord...) but I do like it when Jordan reminds us that he really does plan to tie all this together at some point. And up to now, Morgase was basically the headliner of the biggest (as in longest, by page count,) side plot in the series. So seeing her relevance come to light is always a pleasure.
Darth Touma
3. Darth Touma
I had never thought of the Faile-Perrin emotion smelling phenomenon.. it does make me see things in a different light.. That alone made this entry somewhat paradigm shifting in my reading..

I love that about these re-reads..

Thanks, Leigh..

and off to the weekend

UP THE IRONS!!!
john mullen
4. johntheirishmongol
Well, now Perrin and Morgase has met and joined up. One of the things that I didn't think worked well, because of the whole perrin/faile/berelain thing, that I don't hear much about is why is Morgase keeping who she is a secret? Wouldn't it have been better to ally with Rand (who she had already done a favor) than to keep her status a mystery? Also, when she abdicated, she did it alone..even if she told Lini after...she would have needed witnesses or a proclamation of some sort ..

I think we will cover the P/F/B threeway a lot in the next few chapters so I will avoid it for now
John Mann
5. jcmnyu
I've always thought that Faile got mad at the situation of people seeing what happens. She always seems to get mad when there are witnesses to Berelain touching Perrin and Perrin reacting in a guilty way or Perrin favoring Berelain in a decision and then apologizing to Faile for doing so even if it was the right decision. She gets angry at Berelain for being a slut, and at Perrin for being embarrassing or acting like he might favor Faile beyond the strength of her arguments thus making her less than she is. But, Perrin is only being who he is and Faile knows this. So, she gets angry and then reminds herself that it's not his fault.
Andrew Belmont
6. rosetintdworld
jcmnyu@5:

You may be right that Faile additionally gets mad about Berelain's antics airing in public, but what really drives her nuts is that Perrin is gentle with her but gets angry at Berelain. According to her upbringing, he is treating her as unworthy and too fragile to face his anger, while implicitly complimenting Berelain on her strength. Elyas clues him (and us, I'd say) into this "fact about Saldaean women's personalities" (bleh) some time later, and re-reading all of their marital interactions, it seems accurate.
Ron Garrison
7. Man-0-Manetheran
Ahh, Lini. God bless ya! A rival for Bela as favorite character, or at least character with the most horse sense.

Morgase/Tallanvor: I didn't realize until this re-read that they were as close in age as they are. Now I'm even more annoyed with Morgase.

And then there's Perrin and Faile "Confusion Paso Doble" - a further variation on the lack of communication theme. Interesting thoughts Leigh. That makes a lot of sense, and it will be interesting to read on with that thought in my head.
Maiane Bakroeva
8. Isilel
Dunno, I wasn't impressed with Perrin's leadership here. Impulsively changing his whole approach to the mission? Meh. He should have detained the slimeball or hanged him. It is just another "irritation is just what the doctor ordered" ta'veren moment that he has so many of.

I still find his women troubles and general obssession with Faile headdesky too.

Oh, and I always believed that Faile is unaware of the extent of Perrin's sniffing, but she is still a complete douche, expecting him to instinctively understand the intricacy of idiosyncratic Saldean culture, which is considered extremely odd by any and all non-Saldeans.
Surely, as a high noble she sould have been aware of this? Particularly after seeing how different TR culture is for herself.

And, yes, IMHO it is pretty clear that she intended to abduct Alliandre.

WO behavior is petty and intransigent and certainly not helping the mission.

Morgase... sigh. What was that hare-brained attempt to flee her group about? And also, did she really intend to pretend being dead for the rest of her life, instead of making her abdication public? Even to her children? This is just so monstrously wrong...
Darth Touma
9. drragoon83
I find your theory about Faile quite understandable under the circumstances of their relationship.They don't exactly have the most open relationship and obviously have their secrets that they keep from each other out of what they consider necessity. Which makes the fact that they are madly head over heels in love with each other the reason why their relationship works and that can't be good for their ability to understand each other. Which makes them unable to figure each other out completely which is sad and maybe that's why this ark is so long well besides you know who
Ian Jackson
10. porus
Ooo nice insight on the Faile thing. That never occurred to me. I think I always assumed Faile could read Perrin like a book, even if she didn't know the extent of his superpowers. Then again, the Faile/Perrin relationship never grated my nerves as it seems to grate just about everyone else's.

I am one of the few (or only?) people who love Perrin and Faile to death. In fact, they are my favorite characters.

I am completely aware their relationship is a horribly dysfunctional mockery, but I just love them, and the only thing I hated about the multi-book kidnapping plot was that Perrin and Faile were separated. It broke my heart.

Ok friends, flame away. Bring the Faile hate. I still love her. :D
Brandon D
11. Ishmayl
Once again, the lack of knowledge/communication plays its major hand. Even discounting the whole Faile/Perrin lack-of-thing, I believe that someone at this point should have been able to let Gawain, Galad, Elayne, and Morgase know what the hell the rest of their family is up to. I know at this point that Our Heroes are not privy to the same exact dotes of information that we are, but someone, maybe a non-hero, could have put things together.

On a different note, have we ever seen a quote from Morgase, thinking about Rand at all and the time they met in the Throne Room?
Kate Collura
12. dreamwalker
Good catch that Faile probably doesn't know about Perrin's emotion smelling ability! It seems like one of those things that is obvious when pointed out, but yet it certainly didn't occur to me. I think part of why it seems that Faile's anger is meant to be obvious is because I think we are all familiar with people who attempt to be cold but disguise their anger very badly. This is how I imagined it, but Perrin actually thinks to himself that only he can tell she is angry, so this indicates that she actually does hide it well.

This is what I love - it is certainly not the first time in WOT I've suddenly seen something in a brand new way.
Darth Touma
13. Gaidal
Leigh, another excellent post, and another "makes you go hmmmm" revelation. I, too, never thought about Faile's ignorance of the emotion-smelling. In a lot of scenes I remember, she kept her face smooth and Perrin's nose "felt like it should be bleeding." What a great catch!
Marcus W
14. toryx
Yay! It's not another Elayne and Nynaeve chapter!

Thankfully, this is before the shit hits the fan so Perrin isn't quite so distressing yet. Granted, we're right back into the Perrin/ Faile/ Berlain Jerry Springer show. Yet at least there's some righteous Perrin anger at an issue he can at least do something about!

There's something about Lamgwin that I really like. I dig the way he greets Perrin when Gill is outed. I used to really wish he'd have a moment of awesome at some point, though by now I'm skeptical it'll ever happen.

On another note, is it just me, or does the name Lamgwin really seem inappropriate for his size? I don't know what it is, but the name makes me think of a slender, wiry guy who slouches to look smaller and less threatening. Whenever RJ describes him I'm totally taken aback.

Leigh: I think you're right about Faile. She really doesn't seem to understand that Perrin can smell her anger. I'd never thought of it before either, but it totally makes sense. She thinks she's being so patient and understanding and calm, never realizing that Perrin knows the anger and frustration that simmers beneath all that. It really explains a lot.

I don't agree that it's impossible to smell changes in emotion, though. But that's a whole other topic.
Lucas Vollmer
15. aspeo
This is why I always get so annoyed with the whole Faile thing. She knows that its not his fault for doing things the way he does. He is just trying to do the best he can, and is hoping not to screw everything up too bad. She even thinks to herself that he acts completely differently than any men she knew from Saldea. Yet, somehow she cannot make the jump to trying to understand how he operates, instead of stiffly thinking he should follow Saldean customs that he has no idea he is even going against.

She has been to his home in the Emonds Field. She knows what the people there are like, and that he is mostly like them in his approach to life. So the fact that she still gets mad about the way he tries to do the right thing, and does not explain why she is expecting him to act differently makes me want to throw up my hands in exasperation.

They are a married couple, and you would reasonably hope they would be able to communicate with each other. (I know, I know; people in WOT don't talk to each other, that's apparently against the rules :p) If she could have just told him why his handling of Berelaine was making her so mad, it would have saved us all so many headaches!

Also, Leigh I never made the connection that Faile didn't know that Perrin could tell she got angry by her scent. I don't remember it ever coming up at least. It does go a little ways into explaining some of the general confusion between the two of them, and why each acts the way they do around each other.

One last thing, I do always feel bad for Morgase because she is continually given some of the worst stuff to go through and usually has very little she can do about it except try to persevere. For a minor character, she garners a lot of my sympathies.
Darth Touma
16. Subbak
And that's one new idiot ball that wasn't dropped until Perrin catches up with Galad in the Gathering Storm...
I mean, I can understand why Morgase would hide her identity at the beginning, but geez, once she realises she's not among ennemies, revealing herself could actually help things a lot.

Plus, why didn't anyone think to tell Morgase about Gaebril = Rahvin? I mean, Perrin knew, and should have told Balwer at some point, and Balwer had no reason to hide it from Morgase.
Chin Bawambi
17. bawambi
Actually Leigh's point is why I never really found Faile even annoying just the lack of communication which is in almost every WoT relationship that causes me to headdesk. As a matter of fact Perrins smell-o-vision I don't think will ever be revealed even under the unlikely circumstance of the 3 TR boys actually getting together for a tete-a-tete-a-tete.
Darth Touma
18. chaplainchris
Gah!

This plotline! Gah!

Head, meet desk. Desk, head.

So, ok. Other than that - Faile and Perrin's super-smell thing. Leigh, I think you're right! I can't think of any instance where Faile shows knowledge of his empathy, whereas she definitely makes use of his hearing, to give him barely-vocal instructions, for example.

In which case...boy, have we (I) been reading Faile wrong. I may give her more of a pass than you, even. If she's a) aware that it's not Perrin's fault, b) doesn't say anything about it, c) doesn't show it in her face, and d) really doesn't know he knows...then I see her trying to manage her irrational anger rather than inflict it on him. Which is much more mature than passive-aggressively expecting him to figure everything out.

The only caveat is that he does ask her about it some. But then, her thought of wondering why he's so blind would also play into things.

Anyway, in my case, this had never occurred to me at all, so thanks Leigh!

Re: your thoughts on Morgase. Yeah, as I just said in the comments to the last post, Morgase was pretty cool when introed in TEOTW, and what's happened to her since is just atrocious. She's possibly the most mistreated and damaged WOT character...other than maybe Rand!

In other news, yay reread post yay yay Friday yay.

And that's that.
Ron Garrison
19. Man-0-Manetheran
Here's a thought on the Faile/smell thing to look at in the coming reads. Ok, Perrin smells that she is angry, but does "angry at Berelain" smell the same as "angry at me"? I would think if he's smelling the emotion, then it would smell the same. The object of that emotion shouldn't make it smell differently. Degree of anger, yeah probably, but that's not what I'm talking about. So... even more possibilities for confusion.
Darth Touma
20. chaplainchris
@ various - Morgase doesn't know, and doesn't really know even as late as KOD, that she's not among enemies.

Certainly she learns that Faile and Perrin are noble, good-hearted people in many ways. But that doesn't mean they're not going to end up opposed. Witness Perrin's interaction with Tylee - they have mutual respect and even liking, and wariness - and know eventually they may have to fight each other. You can like and admire but not be on the same side as someone.

Re: Morgase and Perrin, Perrin's just admitted (in ways a queen will surely misunderstand) not thinking he's subject to the Lion Throne. He's just decided to keep using the banners of Manetheren and use the pretense that he's trying to resurrect it to deceive the public. Morgase doesn't know it's deception. And he's got yellow eyes and is Dragonsworn, and the Dragon conquered Andor. And they don't know anything about Gaebril = Rahvin. And that doesn't seem strange to me, because MOST people don't know that, and Perrin would have no reason to mention it since it's long over and done with from him POV.
Skip Ives
21. Skip
I guess this is why I always gave Faile a pass. She is a teen experiencing life outside of her country for the first time. Even if Perrin wasn't equipped with a super-emo nose, she should be having issues dealing with him.

Morgase gets a huge pass on everything flakey she does, IMO. The fact that she is surviving Gaebril is more than many people would manage.

@11. Ishmayl - Gawain (until late in TGS) and Galad are in positions where no one with knowledge of the other family members is likely to tell them - though Galad may know about Elayne. Elayne has been a little preoccupied with staying alive lately, but she should know about Gawain. Perrin should take care of Galad, who can identify his mother. Morgase has been hiding with Mr. One Track Mind, so it is not unusual that she hasn't heard any news. the need for trust and communication is one of the themes of the series after all.
Darth Touma
22. the Salt King
Hey everybody! Long time reader, first time poster! Thanks to Leigh and all of you commenters for your discussions, they have entertained me immensely. I am surprised it took me this long to post. I think a bubble of evil caused this one...

Anyways-
I agree with jcmnyu on Faile's thought process; but that's not all of it. It's not just when in public with witnesses;she also gets mad when Berelain turns on the homewrecker aura and he reacts like a child, instead of treating her like one. I think in her mind, her anger comes from the fear that if she wasn't around and Berelain turned the super-sluttiness to 11, Perrin may not be able to resist.

This get cleared up later(I think in TGS, have to check)

However, this description of her thoughts does not contradict Leigh's theory of not knowing Perrin's onto her anger. In fact, considering we get way more POV action from emo Perrin than from punkish Faile(at least until the Shaido come into the picture...Yay!), we came to headdesking and forgot the implications of one important line that Leigh pointed out.

I myself have been converted, and have demoted Faile's anger issues from headdesk-able to a more suitable braid-pulling worthy facepalm.


And, like Leigh, I also love the small MOAs that come from the different POVs about main characters. Given that this plotline takes an excruciatingly long time, these are used very well in order to illustrate Perrin's growth.

I can't wait until the conversation with Alliandre. If I don't get my re-read posts on a regular basis I start going into withdrawal.
Birgit
23. birgit
Here's a question - why the heck did Morgase try to get away by herself from a band of people rescuing her and why did she act like a grump when Perrin reeled her in gently?

She is continuing her flight from Tallanvor.

why is Morgase keeping who she is a secret?

She answered that herself:

if the Dragon Reborn’s wolf-eyed killer learned that he had Morgase of Andor in his hands, she could be used against Elayne instead of helping her.


Morgase/Tallanvor: I didn't realize until this re-read that they were as close in age as they are. Now I'm even more annoyed with Morgase.

Perrin misjudges her age because of the slowing. She is older than she looks.
Darth Touma
24. AlfredTungstan
Regarding Morgase running away from her companions, I've always felt that she wasn't so much running away from them, but was attempting to run away from love, i.e. Tallanvor. After being mind freaked by a forsaken and raped by a white cloak, she has some issues in that department. I've seen it happen in real life. Someone who has been treated so poorly in past relationships that when someone good for them comes along, they either don't believe they are worthy of love anymore or they can't find it within themselves to trust the other person so rather than taking a chance, they run. I find Jordan to be spot on in his handling of Morgase. Like Leigh though, I do hope she gets her chance at "true love" before the end.
Ron Garrison
25. Man-0-Manetheran
birgit@23 re. "Perrin misjudges her age because of the slowing. She is older than she looks."
You quoted from my post, and I was referring to Morgase's constant excuse (to herself) that Tallanvor is "too young." OK, maybe she's just into Daddies. (kidding!!!)

AlfredTungstan@24 - I think your analysis is spot-on.
Darth Touma
26. Greyhawk
Leigh-

Not sure I give Faile the pass you do here. It is a good point and one I didn't think of my first time through-but on the whole I think Faile is aware that Perrin is aware of her anger/frustration, etc. because well--he asks her all of the time--see your excerpt for a prime example.

As for the Morgase story line--I have never liked it and find nothing to like this time through--IMHO, Jordan had a strong leader(Morgase) who was in the way of one of his supergirls assuming her on position of authority and had to get her off the throne, but for whatever reason didn't kill her (maybe he thought that would stretch credibility if all existing leaders conveniently died to allow a protagonist to take over). Hence this contrived I renounce my throne, pull out your hair storyline. It would have been much more interesting to have seen how Jordan depicted an existing middle aged (i.e. experienced--a trait that is given only lip service in the series -- male or female) smart capable woman without magic (not Aes Sedai) handle this mess.
Darth Touma
27. Silvertip
@21Skip and 24AlbertWolfram ;-), full agreement on Morgase. PTSD is very common in long-time abused women, the closest RL equivalent to what's happened to her, and to my understanding it looks pretty much like this. Here's hoping she can get her head screwed on straight by the end of the series.

Leigh, I agree with you about the implausible startrekkery (and I love Star Trek, but this isn't it) of Perrin's aromapathy, but I'm not as willing as you to give it a pass. It bugged me from the beginning, and after a few books (!) I finally worked out why -- it's a classic case of "tell them don't show them" lazy writing. Time and again, in a given scene or situation, instead of having interactions between or actions by the characters let us know what they're thinking and feeling, Perrin just shows up, scans the scene, somehow sorts out which scents are reaching his nose from which individual out of a large crowd present, and tells us what's in everybody's skull. As much as I love RJ and WoT -- and I wouldn't be lurking here if I didn't! -- to me, this is one of several bad habits he fell into in the middle books that are the root reason they're less satisfying reading than the first five or so. (" realized, too late, that [s]he had been speaking out loud..."). I could perhaps have bought Perrin being unusually sensitive to the emotional state of an individual he's interacting with directly, but the precision with which this Talent is deployed, IMHO, crosses that line between plausible suspension-of-disbelief fantasy and silliness that RJ normally walked so well.

Those who disagree, please weigh in!

S
Hugh Arai
28. HArai
Leigh: isn't it wonderful when the explanation for the confusion is that he doesn't know that she doesn't know that he knows how she really feels?
It's still annoying but hardly unforgivable.

Johntheirishmongol@4:

Morgase doesn't come forward because Perrin is "the Dragon's Henchman" and accidentally used the phrase "Rand wants to put Elayne on the throne". Which of course is the magic code phrase which causes Andoran noblewomen's noses to shoot straight in the air and their brains to turn off.

Things would be so much simpler if Rand's representatives would use the phrase "Rand wishes Elayne would step up and rule her own damn kingdom" but you know, rules against effective communication and all that...
Matthew Smith
29. blocksmith
Leigh

Another great re-read and thanks for the "epiphany" moment. I certainly never thought of it that way.

No time for anything else...have a great weekend assembled commenters.
Darth Touma
30. Booksandhorses
Thanks Leigh. I dropped Perrin's pov a while back, or skimmed it, so it is good to have some idea of what is going on without my blood pressure getting too precipitous :)

I think Perrin's sense of smell is really a curse in a relationship - like being telepathic. All relationships need some secrets to work. Hope he gets a nose ectomy at the end.
Andrew Belmont
31. rosetintdworld
@27 and others: It's funny, and I'm probably misremembering, but I never thought of Perrin's nose as a solution to every problem. It had the opposite problem for me: it felt as extraneous as Deanna Troi's empathy.

Or maybe I'm just too influenced by Isam's awesome summary of ACOS: "My super powers tell me that all these people glaring at each other, fingering their weapons, do not like each other. My super-strong nose tells me. My super-weak brain doesn't." Classic!
Darth Touma
32. evinfuilt
Morgase is such a tragic character. I hope dearly that her reunion with Galad brings her up a bit, and maybe inspires her enough to get married (or at least laid.) She deserves to go home to Camelyn with Lini, and retire to a peaceful and quiet life. Tallanvor can stay back in Camelyn, protecting the city, while Birgitte leads the rest of the army north for war.

Yeah, thats it, I desperatly want a happy ending for her. I don't want to read that someone heard that a Gholam killed her off-screen.
Marcus W
33. toryx
aspeo @ 15:

They are a married couple, and you would reasonably hope they would be able to communicate with each other. (I know, I know; people in WOT don't talk to each other, that's apparently against the rules :p)

In my experience, a surprising number of married couples in real life don't communicate either. This is actually an area I think RJ did pretty well (annoying as it is) particularly given Faile's youth and Perrin's uncertainty about women. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that by WoT's example of all that can go wrong when you don't communicate with friends/ family/ love interests helped me to do the opposite in my own relationships. It sure teaches you to value communication.

But man, it's surprising how many people in the real world don't understand that.
Dan Maus
34. UncleDan
As has been pointed out, Faile is still a teen, and while she may be quite educated in some regards, I know I was no relationship expert at that age. Re: Morgase and Talanvor, there is some progress in that department off screen. Right before these ladies are kidnapped into a certain other plotline, Faile thinks to herself that she knows they've spent "quality time" together and will force that marriage if she finds proof.
Maiane Bakroeva
35. Isilel
Birgit @23:

Perrin misjudges her age because of the slowing. She is older than she looks.

It still doesn't make sense for Morgase to have issue with Tallanvor's age in the setting of supposed gender equality. It is one of the cases where RJ forgets about it and just plugs in a convenient RL cliche.
Just like women in Ebu Dar assuming their husband's surnames, if Setalle Anan is an example to go by, rather than vice versa. Or Ilyena apparently losing her honorable third name when she married LTT.

Greyhawk @26:

Absolutely! It would have been vastly more interesting if we had at least one effective and experienced traditional ruler trying to come to terms with all those upheavals.
It isn't like Elayne doesn't have enough to do as a channeling knight errant/ ter'angreal maker.
Mark Stokes
36. Mark_S
Argh. The plot line. I wish they'd all get kidnapped and dragged away.
Darth Touma
37. Silvertip
@35 Isilel:

My impression was that Morgase tells herself that age is her problem with Tallanvor, but that it isn't actually the source of her reluctance. It looks like a combination of abused-woman-afraid-to-trust and I-still-think-of-myself-as-a-Queen-and-you're-a-punk-soldier to me. But I certainly could be wrong ...
Andrew Belmont
38. rosetintdworld
@35: In general, I think that WOT has some issues with young (or young-looking) women shacking up with older men and reading like a 50 year old male's wildest fantasy (I'm referring here to Nyn/Lan, Bryne/miraculously hot Siuan, Thom/Moiraine) but I don't see Morgase's thoughts on Tallanvor's age as problematic at all. Two ways I think you can see it: she's using a convenient excuse to hide from herself that she's terrified of emotional commitment after her rape (Leigh has suggested this,) or, she's desperately trying to remind herself of a reason to think of Tallanvor as "less," given that she's lost her rank.

As for Setalle Anan: she's desperate to forget the woman she was and needs an alias, why would she not take the name of the man who saved her life to honor him? She's clearly a foreigner, so the Ebou Dari neighbors wouldn't comment on her taking his name. (Or, you know, maybe Ebou Dari do pass the name through the male side. I agree with you that it would be sociologically inconsistent with everything else about their culture though.

Re: Ilyena Therin Moerelle? Do we know from somewhere that she dropped a name? Maybe he took her's? (Perrin adopts part of Faile's, remember.)
Karen Fox
39. thepupxpert
porus @ 10 - I'm with you on this, I think we're the only two people who find the Perrin/Faile thing refreshing. Compared to everyone else in the series denying or being confused about their feelings towards their significant others, Perrin & Faile are at least right out there with their relationship. I loved their interaction in the TR battle with the Trollocs, their marriage, their POV's about each other. I can relate to angst!
Maiane Bakroeva
40. Isilel
Rosetintworld @38:

But wouldn't Setalle taking her husband's name rather than vice-versa cause quite a bit of comment? If they are, logically for their culture, passing surnames through the female side, that is. Which, BTW, again, should be much more widespread in such a setting.

Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar became Ilyena Therin Moerelle. The honorable third name is always the last one, so it certainly seems like she lost hers in marrying the awesomeness that was LTT.
D R
41. Ouroboros
I never thought that Faile knew about the super nose. I just don't like the way she expects Perrin to conform to that loopy Saldaean etiquette without even knowing about it. The scene that really gets me is when she's running around the table to keep away from him. Perrin is also annoying, but that's just because he's - well, not the best when it comes to reading people. *mumbles something about children*

I think I'm going to start playing that communication drinking game. The next few chapters should be good fun. *speech is slurring already*

RobMRobM @1: One possibility is that she recognises the Power at work and flees from what she thinks is one of the Aes Sedai that she now hates - thank you Rahvin.

johntheirishmongol @4: I think Morgase has just settled into the rut of believing a lot of the worst stuff about Rand. What a surprise. Also, he did capture her kingdom and we all know what those Trakands get like about that one.

rosetintdworld @6: Right. The Aybaras get on much better after Elyas clues him in. Unfortunately, Faile gets captured almost immediately after this and we then get treated to three books of Emo Wolf.

Man-0-Manetheran @7: Hmm, Lini does believe the rumour about Perrin and Berelain much Paindrag.

Isilel @8: Agreed, the WOs really aren't helping here. And yes, Perrin hasn't quite grasped the concept of keeping on mission.

toryx @14: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! LMAO.

I always thought Lamgwin was quite appropriate because he moves in a slow and lumbering way.

aspeo @15: Nods in agreement.

Subbak @16: Take a drink.

Man-0-Manetheran @19: The smellphone usually rings immediately after whatever has happened to cause the emotional change. That's part of what makes these scenes annoying for me. He sees the trigger and the emotion and never puts it together. Maybe I'm being unkind, but Faile never struck me as being that mysterious. Annoying, but not mysterious.

chaplainchris @20: What you said.


rosetintdworld @31: I'd forgotten about that part of the summary. Schnarf, schnarf, schnarf. So long as Perrin doesn't start saying things like "great joy and gratitude" in a stupid voice, I think I'll be able to keep going.
Darth Touma
42. boquaz
regarding the empathic smell thing...

This is actually what I "do" (smell research, to put it plainly) and the way it's described in WOT is beyond what is possible (though you might be surprised how much I could get about your emotional make-up by swabbing your armpit - yes, my workplace smells god-awful at times).

However, the empathic effects described in WoT are close to realistic.

Scientifically speaking, dogs (more specifically, puppies) can detect human emotions faster and more accurately than human (children) can. Strange, but the theory is that they've been bred for it (man's best friend and all that), while we need some emotional distance distance so that we can stand to be around each other long enough to allow a whole other set of chemical cues to take over.

Now, that's not wolves (in fact, wolf pups were tested and found to not be able to do this at all). But! There is some precedent out there for this canine-related super-empathy that Perrin has.

When I see "smell" in WoT, I just assume that's Perrin's interpretation of something he doesn't really understand.
Andrew Belmont
43. rosetintdworld
Isilel @40: My mistake on Ilyena. I agree with you, then. That doesn't make any sense at all, and not only from a gender politics standpoint. (What's the point of honorifics if they drop upon marriage?) Some small consolation for Mierin, I guess. ;)
Captain Hammer
44. Randalator
re: Faile's smelly unawareness (sorry)

Okay, yeah, she might not know about his olfactory sensor phalanx. Do I cut her le slack for that?

Aww hell naw!

Why? Because this I'm-stark-ravin-mad-but-I-don't-tell-you-what's-wrong-and-if-you-ask-me-about-it-I'll-flat-out-deny-it attitude is something that drives me up the wall in real life. Actually it drives me up the wall, out the window, over the fence, down the highway, over the border and right into I'm-gonna-punch-Cthulhu-in-the-face-that's-how-pissed-off-I-am land.

This is one of the most annoying, infuriating relationship issues you can come across. Ever. It already is idiocy turned up to eleven and her knowing about his emotional awareness would only knock it up another notch. So again, does she get karma points for not doing that? Well, DUH...no, we're already at eleven here.


Isilel @35

It still doesn't make sense for Morgase to have issue with Tallanvor's age in the setting of supposed gender equality. It is one of the cases where RJ forgets about it and just plugs in a convenient RL cliche.

Do you remember that old "This is your brain - this is your brain on drugs" PSA? I think, we can drop the "on drugs" and replace it with "after compulsion". Morgase's brain is broken and all her bad decisions, relationship issues, etc. are a direct result of Rahvin's meddling.

Although she seems to have a thing for older men in general: Gareth Bryne, Thom...her encounter with the relatively youthful appearing Rahvin probably just added another layer of neurosis/psychosis to the damage.
Ron Garrison
45. Man-0-Manetheran
"Berelain much Paindrag" LOL, Ouroboros. Not much gets by Lini, so maybe the Berelain/Perrin thing is as convincing to the observers as Faile thinks it is. Nah.

re. "He sees the trigger and the emotion and never puts it together." I think that is thing that bothers me most about the Aybarras. Perrin comes off as so clueless so much of the time. I don't want him to be stupid.
Marcus W
46. toryx
boquaz @ 42: Fascinating! Particularly the bit about the wolves. I wonder if that's because they just don't know how to recognize the cues? Perhaps the information is still there, but they haven't developed a way to process it.

Have there ever been any tests on half-breed wolves?
James Jones
47. jamesedjones
41 Ouroboros

Re: Lack of communication Drinking Game.

Do NOT try this with the audio books. Without alcohol induced lysdexia, you might not survive the next few chapters. LOL
T C
48. Freelancer
Leigh. I had always presumed that Faile was ignorant of how easily revealed emotions are to Perrin. Yes, it is a more charitable view of her actions, and I think accurate to the progression of the story. Yes, she is still not excused for her "if you don't already know what's wrong I'm not going to tell you" behavior. She does love him, so I can't picture that she knew he could read her emotions and still "pretended" they didn't exist. No, she is pretending because she believes the pretense is working.

Now, that brings us to Perrin's culpability in this regard. There should have been, long before this point, a declaration such as:
"Understand this. I will always know when you are angry, jealous, displeased, curious, sad, proud, or whatever. Your big wolf can read emotions in someone's scent, and it's always true. Claiming that you aren't angry at me when it's impossible for you to hide it from me, that's lying to me, manipulating me, and telling me you don't trust me. Stop it now, and you might just enjoy the results."

Why does Perrin insist on keeping back parts of his WolfBrotherness from Faile? It's juvenile, and bolsters the situation of them working at cross-purposes all too often.


Man-o-Manetheren@19

It's multi-sensor integrated analysis at work. That is to say, Perrin correlates shifts in folk's scent/emotion with what is happening at that instant, who they are talking to/dealing with, and he draws a conclusion from that. So, he senses shifts in Faile's scent when he speaks to her, then he knows that he is the source of her shift in emotion. If she turns and stares at Berelain, inducing a change in scent, he analyzes the inputs accordingly. This requires a reader to be paying close attention to clearly understand what Perrin is determining, but it has long been determined that Jordan expected much from his readers in the comprehension department.
Karen Fox
49. thepupxpert
boroqz @ 42 - Agree. Anyone who has owned a dog for any length of time can attest to their amazing 6th sense for our feelings. They certainly are masters at reading body language but I think a dog with a good nose can smell emotion, I've owned a few like that and it made me do a mini-study on myself and my reactions to things. If I get mad about something, I get an immediate flush of emotion and my dogs can immediately sense it. Sometimes I find myself apologizing to them, telling them it's not their fault... :)

I think it is not a big leap to assume that wolves have that kind of innate sense but I think dogs just have it honed in from more use living with humans.
j p
50. sps49
It never occurred to me that anyone would think Faile knew about Perrin "smelling" emotions. I'm surprised!

I do take Perrin's sense to be akin to canines' emotional sensitivity, and he subconsciously rationalizes it as smell. But there isn't anyone who knows; he tries to keep all his wolfyness as secret as possible from everybody. Because he fears it, and fears becoming like whatsisname in TDR.
Hugh Arai
51. HArai
Regarding the empathic smell thing: It's apparent being a Wolfbrother means you can transmit/receive emotions because that's how wolves name themselves among other things. I don't think Perrin is picking up chemical cues when he picks up emotions I think it's just how he relates to this new sense.

Man-o-Manethern@45:

I think that is thing that bothers me most about the Aybarras. Perrin comes off as so clueless so much of the time. I don't want him to be stupid.
He's not stupid, his wife just doesn't make any sense based on any relationship he's had before. Hence his disbelief when Elyas first tries to clue him in. It's going to be hard when you treat your wife the best way you know how and it pisses her off and nothing explains why. Think about it: from Perrin's point of view Faile wants him to treat her badly. The one thing he refuses to do.
Darth Touma
52. Lsana
@40 Isilel,

Do you know for sure that the last name is the special "3rd name"? I always assumed that the middle name was the honorific. Notice how LTT is always referred to as "Lews Therin" or "Lews Therin Telamon" but never just as "Lews" even with people he knew well. Lanfear (who didn't get the 3rd name), on the other hand, is just "Mierin." The combination leads me to believe that the middle name is the one that you get special. Until someone quotes me a source, I will assume that "Moerelle" is Ilyena's honorific.

Of course, that raises the question of why Ilyena would change her name to take her husband's honorific rather than his family name, but that's a whole other can of worms...

@48 Freelancer,

I could believe that Faile doesn't know about Perrin's empathy-nose, but I can't believe "she is pretending because she believes the pretense is working." Perrin is constantly asking her things like "What did I do wrong?" or "Why are you angry with me?" These questions should clue even the stupidest people that maybe, just maybe, Perrin does know that she is angry.
Ron Garrison
53. Man-0-Manetheran
HArai, I don't think Perrin is stupid. Poor word choice. I just hate that he is kept in the dark so much. As a story device, I think it just went on waaaaaaay to long.
Jim T
54. nabcif
Dear Perrin,

I doubt that you tying Berelain up would make Faile happy. AT ALL.


(Long time reader, first time poster, yada yada. First time poster here, anyway--looks like I actually made a post in rasfwj, back in the day, which I didn't expect...)
Tricia Irish
55. Tektonica
I agree with everything that Isilel said@8. So much so that I'm going to repost it here!

8. Isilel
VIEW ALL BY · FRIDAY MAY 07, 2010 03:00PM EDT · AMENDED ON FRIDAY MAY 07, 2010 03:03PM EDT
FLAG | BOOKMARK
Dunno, I wasn't impressed with Perrin's leadership here. Impulsively changing his whole approach to the mission? Meh. He should have detained the slimeball or hanged him. It is just another "irritation is just what the doctor ordered" ta'veren moment that he has so many of.

I still find his women troubles and general obssession with Faile headdesky too.

Oh, and always believed that Faile is unaware of the extent of Perrin's sniffing, but she is still a complete douche, expecting him to instinctively understand the intricacy of idiosyncratic Saldean culture, which is considered extremely odd by any and all non-Saldeans.
Surely, as a high noble she sould have been aware of this? Particularly after seeing how different TR culture is for herself.

And, yes, IMHO it is pretty clear that she intended to abduct Alliandre.

WO behavior is petty and intransigent and certainly not helping the mission.

Morgase... sigh. What was that hare-brained attempt to flee her group about? And also, did she really intend to pretend being dead for the rest of her life, instead of making her abdication public? Even to her children? This is just so monstrously wrong...

From Tek: Morgase, marry the guy already! Geesh.
Sharon E.
56. Sulin
Yay, another re-read (thanks Leigh), yay Friday!

I didn't pick up on Faile not realizing about Perrin's Imzadi-nose, but I'm still not cutting her much slack for it. She often annoys me, for the same reasons others have stated.

I really like the part where Perrin gets all growly with Mr. Ears, it's one of the few times he impresses me.

And....can't really think of anything else to type that hasn't been said already, so FEH.

SulinoftheOosquaiSeptoftheTGIFAiel

Edit for: Oosquai is on me in celebration of Master al'Thor's Grajeeayshun. Cheers!
diane heath
57. jadelollipop
Still reading Fires of Heaven but I suspect that this go around I will not skip as much of the triangle of doom as I did last year (until Faile gets kidnapped anyway...we will see)....The idea that Faile is trying to keep her anger away from Perrin and that he is assuming that all of her anger is at him...not sure it helps the situation but it explains it somewhat.
I hate all that happened to Morgase but I have always been annoyed that she hid rather than acknowledge Perrin as a good guy. Everyone assumes that Rand is worse than the Dark One,makes it hard to save the planet.
Read somewhere (one forum or another...maybe here :)
that Perrin's tavern ability causes him to collect rulers. Guess Mat should be happy Perrin didn't see Tuon first.
Hugh Arai
58. HArai
Man-o-Manetheren@53. Agreed. Although as someone pointed out to me about Elayne's saga (was it you Wetlandernw?) these plot lines that seem soooooo long actually take place in 4 months or so, in story. Sorting out the first major hangups of your marriage in 4 months isn't that bad really :)

Isilel@8 and therefore Tektonica@55:

Perrin isn't actually all that impressed with his leadership abilities either. He hasn't had any training and he knows it. He's just a fairly sensible young villager who happens to be a ta'veren. Expect ta'veren things to occur. People in recent threads have claimed expectations are too high for Elayne. Be reasonable about expectations for Perrin.
Ron Garrison
59. Man-0-Manetheran
HArai: "Sorting out the first major hangups of your marriage in 4 months isn't that bad really."

True! Though it may seem an eternity. Hmmmm. Is RJ even smarter than we give him credit?
Thomas Keith
60. insectoid
Sorry I'm late to the party again. I've been a very busy beaver. ;) Wonderful post as always Leigh.

Ch. 7:
Berelain: ::removes glasses::

*headdesk*

::puts glasses back on:: Ow. Better.

Perrin: Is pretty awesome when he tosses threats at the prisoner.

Ch. 8:
Maighdin: Has Birgitte's problem of not knowing when to keep her mouth shut. ;) And she reminds Perrin of Elayne—HA!

Perrin identifying Gill: Was freaking hilarious.

Your epiphany: Hmm... I hadn't thought about that. It sounds plausible to me.

Bzzz™.
Darth Touma
61. Ian B Manc
I love your recaps, Leigh.I don't post often, but you've made me re read the books so I'm ALSO re reading the recaps. It gets...confusing.

They are also getting exponientially longer as well!
At this rate you'll have a higher word count than the man himself.

Anyway. I like Faile, and probably for the same reason I like Nynaeve. Ballsy and angry on the outside because this is how they have to behave to get things done. In a man this would be seen as alpha thing, in a woman it's dismissed.
Captain Hammer
62. Randalator
jadelollipop @57

Read somewhere that Perrin's tavern ability causes him to collect rulers.

I'm hanging around in taverns quite a lot and I'm also fairly able in that particular area but I don't seem to collect any rulers. Life's not fair... :-(
Jennifer B
63. JennB
Faile doesn't know about Perrin's emotion sensing nose, but she does know that he is aware of her anger. It's a pretty clear and common scenario: Wife gets angry and tries to hide it. Despite her efforts, husband picks up on it. Husband asks what is wrong. Wife answers with (and I quote)

a light “Why do you think you’ve done anything?” or a not-so-light “What do you think you’ve done?” or a flat “I do not want to talk about it.”

Just because she does not know the mechanism by which he senses her anger does not mean she does not know he senses it.

He is pleading with her to communicate with him and she refuses. I can't stand the way she treats him. It is just awful.

Isilel@8
I second everything you say here.

AlfredTungstan@24
I think you're explanation is good about Morgase's very odd behavior. It is still difficult not to be frustrated with her though. Luckily she does seem to get better.

boquaz@42
You have a cool job. Thanks for the info.

sps49@50
I agree with your surprise.
Ron Garrison
64. Man-0-Manetheran
JennB@63:
And of course there is the ever popular, "If you don't know, I'm not about to tell you."
Jennifer B
65. JennB
Man-o-Manetheran@64
I'm surprised that one wasn't on Perrin's list. I bet Faile uses that one all the time!
Darth Touma
66. Silvertip
@42 boquaz

Cool project! I remember the dog/wolf thing, which was fascinating ... I can sure see it though, being able to read & respond to humans would underlie a lot of the traits that people deliberately try to breed in (I have a labrador/chesapeake retriever cross who generally knows what I'm thinking before I do ... and that ability definitely would have fed into his ancestors being "good hunting dogs" or not). Darwin wins again!

When I see "smell" in WoT, I just assume that's Perrin's interpretation of something he doesn't really understand.


Hadn't thought about it that way ... could well be, in which case much of the startrekkiness goes away.

S
Karen Fox
67. thepupxpert
Regarding Morgase and looking younger than she is, why would she look younger than she is, she can barely channel and has not spent years working with the Power. Confused on that comment since she never took any oaths and is not AS.

Regarding age difference, Morgase was a young Queen and even if she had Elayne at 18 or 20 that would only put her at 40 now and assuming Tallanvor is in late 20's or early 30's, there is still a significant age difference. I'm glad to see it working the other way for once, besides the Matt/Tylin thing, that is the only other example of the woman being the older partner, and she was really quite a bit older!
Ron Garrison
69. Man-0-Manetheran
Morgase/Tallanvor ages

(edit - have the book) Chapter 8, page 176, Faile POV: "...the fellow who had ridden after her; 'young' Tallanvor, though there could not have been more than four or five years between them if that..."
j p
70. sps49
thepupxpert @67-

Elayne was her 2nd, she bore Gawyn earlier.
Rob Trotter
71. shadar
At least post TGS we know that Morgase has had to reveal herself. I wonder if she will find out about Rahvin then... The one I was disgusted with not knowing was Gareth Bryn.. Why has he not been told the forsaken are lose and impersonating rulers..
j p
72. sps49
Man-o-Manetheran @69-

That may be Faile's perception; she does not know about "slowing".
Darth Touma
73. Lurking Canadian
It's possible that Faile doesn't know about Perrin's emotion sniffing capability. I don't think there's textual evidence one way or the other so I could go either way.

However, I agree with JennB and others. Faile may not know how precise Perrin's emotion sensor is, but I have a hard time believing she thinks he doesn't know when she's angry. "No Perrin, I'm not angry with you. I'm not standing here fuming with my arms crossed because I'm mad, really. Even though I scratched holes in your back while talking about farmgirls at harvest last night, I'm just not in the mood today. And I'm not wearing my scratchiest, most uncomfortable nightgown in the middle of the hottest summer on record and refusing to so much as let you kiss my cheek because I'm mad at you, I'm just NOT IN THE MOOD. I'M NOT MAD AT YOU. GOD!"

Girl's not subtle, is what I'm saying.
diane heath
74. jadelollipop
Randalator@62 Sorry about the dropped e obviously meant ta'veren. My login dropped on me and went to red so I had to log back in and in the process misread my own note...just think how confused I would be without the preview option!
John Massey
75. subwoofer
@Rob1 I am still baffled by Morgase abdicating the throne.

@MOM- yay! Yes, I too am impressed by a lady that is Freelancer's age having so much pi$$ and vinegar. God bless her:)

@Leigh- only lady in the galaxy that finds blunt trauma refreshing.

Faile is young. Kids are self absorbed and sometimes do not notice how their actions/reactions affect others.

@Toryx- it is like naming a goon Shirley.

Woof™.
Ron Garrison
76. Man-0-Manetheran
sps49@72: As someone else pointed out, Morgase is extremely weak in the power, so slowing shouldn't be a factor.
John Massey
77. subwoofer
What if Perrin's off-put by Faile's indulgence in coin-peppers? Maybe Faile really does not clue in on Perrin's super nose.

Morgase- well, she is on the rebound- Tallanvor better hope for some guy in between there to be the guy that deals with the issues,the buffer, then he can swoop in after and be the "keeper". Lot's of women do crazy things after being used six ways from Sunday and been left for dead at the side of the road. Queens are no exceptions to this.

Woof™.
Jay Dauro
78. J.Dauro
Leigh, as usual a great job. Thanks.


birgit @23 MOM @7 and others

TFOH 19
"Why do you keep calling him young?" Lini demanded once the door closed. "It puts his back up. 'A fool puts a burr under the saddle before she rides."
"He is young, Lini. Young enough to be my son."
Lini snorted, and this time there was nothing delicate about it. "He has a few years on Galad, and Galad is too old to be yours. You were playing with dolls when Tallanvor was born, and thinking babes came the same way as dolls."
From this I would say maximum a 10 year difference, and probably not quite that much.



bawambi @17

Gabriel = Rahvin
Rand knows. Mat knows, Nyneave, Elayne, Egwene, Min know. But I do not think it is ever mentioned that Perrin knows. I have to agree with chaplinchris @20. Even if Morgase knows that Perrin is a good man, she does not know that Rand is, and still worries that Rand may harm Elayne.


Skip @21

Elayne may know Gawayn is serving the White Tower (through Egwene) but for most of that time, she does not know where he is, and wishes he would return. Gawayn does not discover Elayne is in Andor until TGS.


Silvertip @37

Exactly, age is not the real problem.


rosetintdworld @38

Except that Morgase's age comments start long before the rape. Yes, after the rape things do get worse, but she starts before leaving Caemlyn.


jadelollipop @57

Well, let's see, Rand is the Dragon Reborn. The Dragon is also known as Kinslayer, the breaker of the world, the man who caused the taint on Saiden. Very few Aes Sedai think he can be allowed to run free. No one appears to recognize that without him the DO would probably have already won. So I expect few people to really be comfortable with him. Some follow him truly, but most of the dragonsworn just do it so that they can pillage, etc.

Even if Morgase sees Perrin as good, many good people have followed bad leaders. The real test is going to come soon, when Elayne tries to explain to her mother that the Dragon Reborn is her lover, her warder, the father of her children, and soon to be her husband. And Aviendha's husband. And Min's husband. This is what I want to see.

All too often we forget that we know much that the characters do not. We know that LTT was trying his best. We know that Rand is basically a very good man trying his best. etc. And it's not just a lack of communication between characters, much of it is not known by anyone in world.
j p
79. sps49
Man-o-Manetheran @76-

I saw that opinion.

But Morgase has Slowed. I haven't seen test nor RJ quotes stating she hasn't, or that her strength is insufficient.
Andrew Belmont
80. rosetintdworld
@several: I am 99% sure I remember a quotation from Jordan stating that Morgase has slowed. Of course, now I can't find it, so I'm reluctant to state anything too definitively. The number of references to her appearing too young clinch it for me, though. Furthermore, we know that strength in the Power correlates to how much you slow, but there is no evidence that little strength prevents slowing altogether.

If anything, the fact that Sorilea is the "oldest Wise One" (LOC Glossary) when there are plenty of impressively powerful WO channelers suggests that Sorilea has slowed. And if she is strong enough to slow even a little, then Morgase should be, too.

J. Dauro @78: I was referring to Rahvin, not Valda. She started thinking of Tallanvor as "too young" after her first inkling that Gaebril might be more than he seems.
Tony Zbaraschuk
81. tonyz
Leigh: Very interesting take on Faile here. I'm going to have to think about it for a while, but I think you're on to something. (Though I still think both of them need a stern talking-to by a good marriage counselor. At least Perrin gets Elyas -- wonder if Faile will ever have A Talk with someone who knows what they're talking about. Maybe Lini in Towers of Midnight? I can hope, anyway.)
Faile does notice a lot of stuff about Perrin -- like his perceptiveness, and his strength, and a few other things. It's nice to see his awesomeness through her eyes from time to time, even if it does make the headdesking worse.

I like Lini, all the time. And the way she jumps in and force-feeds everyone the Agreed Cover Story right in front of Perrin is so funny! (Almost as funny as the fact that Perrin doesn't notice it.)

Morgase is trying to get away from Tallanvor, but she's decidedly not thinking straight at any point here. Besides PTSD from the rape, there's post-Compulsion damage from Rahvin. But she is, I think, right not to reveal herself to Perrin, and this is probably something she and the others decided on not long after getting out of Amador (most of her crew is at least competent, and Balwer is freaking brilliant): if she claims to be Morgase without proof, she'll just be taken for a madwoman -- though Aes Sedai might be able to figure it out, and be believed, she's got Rahvin's brainworms in her about that, and Balwer the ex-Whitecloak Spymaster has no reason to trust them either. And if she claims, and is believed, anyone in the area would have so many levers to use on Andor it isn't funny. Look what happened to her last time she revealed herself to someone...

One last thing, and that's that Perrin and Rand made one big mistake when setting up this mission: they forgot to arrange for a secure communication channel. It wouldn't have been that difficult (use gateways to move the Wise Ones back and forth), and it would have been so incredibly useful over the last few books. But I suppose that's what happens when you put together a Grand Secret Plan on your own without consulting anyone. Security bites.
Invisible Cheese
82. MatOdin
I never thought of Morgase's rape and susequent imprisonment by Valda as correlating to her paranoia Tallanvor-wise.
TO be honest, Perrin, after about book three, jsut pisses me off. First it's the 'oh FAILe, I have to leave you to keep you safe,' then the 'I am so not having anything with Berelain,' then the 'I don't understand your bloody Saldean customs, burn it,' and finally the 'I am so bleeping mopey now that Faile is gone,'
The guy should relax. As far as I see it, Perrin has spent his and FAILe's entire relationship either arguing, or on the brink of arguing.
Yes, that FAIL in FAILe was intentional. She fails the MatOdin test. B>
Darth Touma
83. alreadymadwithwolfnose
HArai @28
Yep, but that would increase their word count drastically. Not good for Lan's students, it reflects badly on him.

Isilel @35
We do have at least one traditional ruler coming to terms with those upheavals. Matter of fact, we have four. They're the Borderlanders.

rosetintdworld @38
I was under the impression that Perrin was actually following Saldaean tradition in that case. Faile identifies herself the same way, with suitable adjustments given her position as wife.

boquaz @42
I thought canines and a few other animals can detect the pheromones humans emit when they are afraid or angry. The pheromones themselves are odorless, but since the pheromone detectors are in the canine's nose, they effectively "smell" it as well. And they don't always like the smell. Perrin attaching distinct descriptions to the type of smell was probably just him anthropomorphizing. Although good point on Perrin now constantly using smell as a reference point. Just goes to show how focused he is on his sense of scent. Where others would say, "as far as I can see", he would now say, "as far as I can smell".

nabcif @54
Dear Perrin,
Nope, tying Berelain up won't make your wife happy, but it will MAKE ME VERY HAPPY INDEED. ;)

sps49 @72
IIRC Morgase was in her teens when she gained the throne. Around 16 or so and having just gone through a Succession, would have been very much under pressure to produce an heir. Gawyn would have been born a year or two later and he's around Rand's age. So 40 would be the upper limit for her age, probably late 30's. Tallanvor was an officer of the guard so he would have been early to mid thirties.

J.Dauro @78
YOu'd think that was one of the things they'd bring up during the catching up session they had in Caemlyn. Before the Aes Sedai decided to interrupt them .
Alice Arneson
84. Wetlandernw
Wow. It never occurred to me that most of the readers never realized that Faile didn't know about Perrin's "nose for emotion" thing. Maybe that's why so many hate her... I've always rather liked the girl, myself, and never really understood the anti-Faile faction. I'd also like to point out that, even when you "understand" that there are cultural differences, it's not a simple matter to set aside the entire structure of "how people interact" that you've grown up with and absorbed without analysis because that's just the way it is. This is especially true when it comes to gender relationships. Many things, this included, are part of your social interaction at a level much deeper than thought, so while it's possible to recognize intellectually, it's much harder to change your instinctive expectations and reactions. The fact that Faile tries so hard to understand, and not be angry at Perrin, and successfully hides it from virtually everyone else, is IMHO really fairly admirable for one so young.

The first time I read this, I seem to remember groaning when I realized that was Morgase, joining plot-arcs with Perrin. I was so annoyed with the whole Morgase plot, that on every reread I started to dread this plotline. Having since come to the conclusion that a) Morgase was (and possibly still is) fighting some serious Compulsion issues and b) has more purpose in the end-game of the story than was apparent at one time, I'm hoping I can find it less draining this time around.

Speaking of Rahvin's Compulsion, I suddenly started to wonder if part of Morgase's continuing rejection of Tallanvor is due to that. Morgase as we saw her earlier wouldn't let a little thing like 15 years or so stand in her way if she decided to choose a lover who was younger, although so far she's clearly preferred older men. Perhaps her natural preference for older men is obliquely reinforced by Rahvin's Complusion to adore him and only him, twisting her to reject Tallanvor on the basis of his youth.

Man-o-Manetheran @7 - Re: Morgase & Tallanvor being "close in age" - not really. The estimate that he's only maybe 5 years younger is based on Perrins guess that she's only about 10 years older than himself. In truth, its' more like 20 years plus; she has "slowed" somewhat due to her (marginal) channeling ability. If Perrin's guess as to Tallanvor's age is anywhere near correct, he'd have to be about 15 years younger than Morgase.

Subbak @16 - No one thought to tell Morgase that Gaebril was Rahvin because no one who knows she's Morgase knows about Rahvin, and no one who knows about Rahvin even knows Morgase is alive.

@Various, who feel that Perrin's nose is a wimpy plot device - I always felt that in fantasy, an author is restricted only by his own imagination. So he's created a character who has somehow been given many of the characteristics of a wolf. Vision, hearing and smell are all highly developed in a wolf; in this particular fantasy, so is telepathy among wolves. It would be deadly dull to have the super-distance- and night-vision, super-hearing (with the cool effect that his wife can make comments she knows only he will hear) and... uh... the incredible ability to know that everyone around you really, desparately needs a bath. It's a fantasy - why not make that super-sense as useful as the others? I thought it was a pretty slick trick, myself. Also, quite frankly, if we had to wade through all of Perrin's misadventures with him trying to figure everything out by reading body language and subtle tones, and given that half the people he needs to figure out are Aes Sedai, Wise Ones and Asha'man (all of whom are masters of outward self-possession)... can you imagine how many more pages it would take to sort out the mess? Gah!! Thanks, I'll take a cool wolf nose that can pick out everyone's individual scent and the emotions related thereunto.

toryx @33 - SO VERY RIGHT!!! Well said, my friend.

Okay, I may be repeating things others have said, but it's late and I'm going to post this without reading the rest of the comments. Hopefully tomorrow... maybe.... But it's shaping up to be a busy weekend.
Theresa Gray
85. Terez27
@Wetlandernw - "I was so annoyed with the whole Morgase plot, that on every reread I started to dread this plotline. Having since come to the conclusion that a) Morgase was (and possibly still is) fighting some serious Compulsion issues and b) has more purpose in the end-game of the story than was apparent at one time, I'm hoping I can find it less draining this time around."

See, you DO like theories! ;)
Don Barkauskas
86. bad_platypus
@various:
Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn.
From RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME" via the Theoryland quotation page.
Maiane Bakroeva
87. Isilel
Lsana @52:

The World book goes into some detail about the third names honorifics and yes, they are always last. Poor Ilyena!
And for that matter, in a truly equal society, why would a woman take her husband's surname?

AMW @83:

Well, it would be nice if said traditional ruler(s) also were more detailed characters with some screen time. Borderland royalty are just named extras and likely for the chop anyway.

Morgase has been already given quite a bit of presence and Elayne is much more fun when she is a super-strong channeller with rare talents, on a quest for the world at large, rather than when she is involved with Andor.
In fact, her Andoran angle feels like a waste, IMHO. As do the travails of Morgase after she escapes Rahvin.

Rosetintworld @38:

In general, I think that WOT has some issues with young (or young-looking) women shacking up with older men

Oh, absolutely. Also, with how all semi-important male characters get shacked up with virgins or the next thing to it, while being (much) more romantically experienced themselves. Except for Perrin, that is. And Rand with his first haremite - but he makes up for it with the rest ;).
Antoni Ivanov
88. tonka
I loved when Morgase joined Perrin, that chapter is one of my favourite in all books. The way they see Perrin, how different is from the way people who know him. And I've always liked Morgase ever since the first book.And her joining Perin's storyline was a very very good move. It adds new dynamics to the whole plotline.
Jay Dauro
89. J.Dauro
Wetlandernw @84

As quoted from TFOH 19, Lini says Morgase was still playing with dolls when Tallanvor was born. She also says that Galad is too old to be Morgase's child, and Tallanvor is older that Galad.

Morgase was 14-15 in 972 when Mordrellen died. Galad was an infant when Mordrellen died. From Lini's comments Tallanvor was a "few" years older than Galad. This puts a maximum difference of 14 (If Galad is just born, and Lini means 1 when she says a few), but I would interpret Galad to be at least 1 or 2, and a "few" years to be at least 3 years. So 10-11 years maximum.

And my opinion of Lini is that she can tell your age, and whether your smallclothes have been washed with a glance. At least for men.
Birgit
90. birgit
He exhaled slowly and told her. How he had met Elyas Machera and learned he could talk to wolves. How his eyes had changed color, grown sharper, and his hearing and his sense of smell, like a wolf's. About the wolf dream. About what would happen to him, if he ever lost his hold on humanity.

TSR ch. 41

Perrin tells Faile about his sharp senses, but doesn't explain that that allows him to read feelings.
Rob Munnelly
91. RobMRobM
Misc comments

- ok, no one still has a good clue why Morgase took off like a shot at the start after being saved. It makes no sense. She has very close companions, including Lini and Tallanvor, is relieved from a siege from killers, and takes off by herself. She must be acting that having her be recognized would hurt Andor or Elayne somehow. Possible theories:
+ she assumes her saviors are Seanchan and having her caught in the group will be harmful to Andor. But...they're not dressed like Seanchan. Unlikely theory.
+ Ditto re Whitecloaks.
+ Due to use of the power, she believes this is an Aes Sedai led group. This is most likely theory, but why would her being saved by AS be bad for Andor or Elayne? Concern that Elaida knows her too well and would use her ruthlessly for WT ends? There may be something here - thoughts?

- She's likely 15 years older than Tallanvor. She's about 40; he's a year or two older than Galad, so I assume 25 (Elayne 18, Gawyn 20, Galad 23). At least 12 or 13 anyway.

- She obviously has very ambivalent feelings for Tallavor, causing her confusion. He is younger and her pattern is older; he is an experienced soldier but without broader knowledge or skills, whereas her pattern is more broadly skilled and worldly; and she is still figuring out whether she is a Queen or something else. She knows he loves her but is concerned that loving her should not be enough.

- I agree wholeheartedly Morgase should keep her identity secret until she is with people she truly trusts. Query who that would be at this point in story - probably keep secret until she finds Elayne, Gawyn or Galad. Not sure who else is safe. She might have been hoping for one of Alliandre's predecessors, who would know her and whom she might have trusted, but the quick turnover of kings/queens closed that option.

- I'm not particularly troubled by the Perrin emo marraige story line. As you'll see, Elyas comes and that problem gets solved in a remarkable hurry. We just shift into the separate problem of Perrin emo wife-chasing story line. Perrin in PoD is actually a pretty good arc.

- Love Lamgwin - one of the coolest of the minor characters in WoT.

- Didn't realize until recently that Maighdin is the name of Morgase's mother.

- I don't have a problem with Perrin deviating from the going in plan of secrecy. He didn't realize how bad it was. If lying low meant that more people would be killed or tortured by these scum, he wasn't going to stand for it. I actually agree with that reasoning.

Rob
Captain Hammer
92. Randalator
jadelollipop @74

No need to apologize. It was just to good an oportunity for a corny joke to let it go to waste.


MatOdin @82

Actually, I disagree about the Morgase-slowing thing. I reckoon she's about 35/-40, and Tallanvor's roughly 25-30. Sorilea, as far as I know, did not slow.EGWENE DID NOT NOTE THE ALMOST AGELESSNESS SHE SAW IN THE OTHER WISE ONES, LIKE AMYS!

None of the Kin have anything resembling "almost agelessness". ;-)

Slowing just means that you look younger than you really are, the gap between appearance and biological age being wider the stronger you are. As was stated by RJ, Morgase has indeed slowed (see bad_platypus @86) but since she is very weak there is only a difference of about ten years.

If Sorilea is comparably weak and being the oldest WO pegs her at, say, 100 she would appear roughly 90 years old. In other words, no one would notice any significant slowing.

Concerning Morgase's age: She entered the White Tower at the age of 14 (TFoH, ch. 19) and left it "short of her sixteenth nameday" (TFoH, ch. 19) when Tigraine disappeared in 972 NE. So she must have been born in 956 or 957 NE which means, that in TPoD (1000 NE) she is 43-44 years old looking in her early 30s.
Joseph Blaidd
93. SteelBlaidd
I had forgotten just how many of my favorite chapters are in PoD.

Wet@84
A-bloody-men!
One of the things we forget is that in WoT the only scientifically trained psychologist currently practicing is Grendal. There are no books on talk therapy, or any other kind of therapy. No "MArs Venus" no "Five Love Languages" no relationship section in no bookstore where you can by no copies of no Cosmo.

I don't think I was ever consciously aware that Faile didn't know about Perrin smelling feelings, but it makes sense(:P). Even knowing that he can smell like a wolf she has to know that feelings can have smells to realize he can tell what she is feeling. Given how often she thinks about having to work around his other senses if she thought sent was something to worry about she would hav mentioned it. Personally I think Perrin is mostly at fault for not answering her "why would you think I'm angry?"s with "I can smell it." He doesn't because he is really uncomfortable talking about Wolfbrother things.

I would say that Faile does "know" that they do things differently in TR but, just knowing doesn't really help. As an example, and explanation for Morgase fleeing her friends, my wife had an abusive boyfriend all through HS. For several years after our marriage she would have panic attacks, the hard thing was if I tried to hold her, instead of being a comfort it would make the attacks worse. Her knowing that I loved her didn't help and my knowing that a hug was counter productive, and why, didn't make suppressing the reflex to give her one any easier or make it not hurt when she would push me away.
Tricia Irish
94. Tektonica
Coming so late to the party and having so little time this weekend, all I can do is agree with:

Ouroboros@41:

I never thought that Faile knew about the super nose. I just don't like the way she expects Perrin to conform to that loopy Saldaean etiquette without even knowing about it.

Really....as others have stated....she's been to the Two Rivers and if she wasn't all hoity-toity about being Saldean, she might have observed her new husbands' milieu. Why does she keep expecting him to convert to Saldeanism? I never thought she knew about Perrin's noseatron. She's just self-absorbed and non-communicative, which seems to be a requirement to be a character in these books....the non-communicative part.

Freelancer@48:

You are also right, sir...more communication breakdown!

Now, that brings us to Perrin's culpability in this regard. There should have been, long before this point, a declaration such as:
"Understand this. I will always know when you are angry, jealous, displeased, curious, sad, proud, or whatever. Your big wolf can read emotions in someone's scent, and it's always true. Claiming that you aren't angry at me when it's impossible for you to hide it from me, that's lying to me, manipulating me, and telling me you don't trust me. Stop it now, and you might just enjoy the results."


JennB@63:

Just because she does not know the mechanism by which he senses her anger does not mean she does not know he senses it. He is pleading with her to communicate with him and she refuses. I can't stand the way she treats him. It is just awful.


These two are the worst of the worst at communication....thank goodness they love each other....for some reason?

Yup....all of the above. Put me in the Don't Like Faile Camp and the Dreading This Plotline Tent.

J.Dauro@78:

I think/hope Morgase gets sorted out and has some reason for being in this plotline....she has potential as an awesome character and could, with Rand, be in the running for most abused character too. Morgase is hurting
psychologically...Rahvin head-mess, Rape, Abdication, Andor in chaos, Dragon Reborn in charge, etc. I am looking forward to the Galad/Morgase reunion and reveal, I hope, and what you said, below:

Even if Morgase sees Perrin as good, many good people have followed bad leaders. The real test is going to come soon, when Elayne tries to explain to her mother that the Dragon Reborn is her lover, her warder, the father of her children, and soon to be her husband. And Aviendha's husband. And Min's husband. This is what I want to see.

Should be some fireworks at that reunion.....that is, if they actually talk.

And who cares whether Tallanvor is younger....such a non-issue...the real issue is Fear. I'm royalty, he's not. I've been abused by several men lately. I must put my country first, not my feelings. What are my feelings? Age difference is just an excuse not to face her real feelings for him.....she likes and admires him, he did save her life, and I think she's attracted as well and feels guilty for it!
diane heath
95. jadelollipop
My trouble with these middle books is the prolonged Perrin/Faile/Berelain/Shaido line....Just be glad Sevanna didn't go after Perrin haha
I like the Perrin/Faile line until Faile gets kidnapped and Perrin goes bananas. I also hate that everyone believed what Berelain set up and I just don't like her on principal.
Re: Morgase...Will she trust Galad since he is now a White Cloak?
I always wonder why everyone is quick to accuse Mat of being the one to betray Rand (if anyone does) because as Leigh pointed out in re-read of EOTW Mat stood by Rand while under the influence of the SL dagger. In GH when Mat lived the lives where he thought he would betray Rand he was still under the influence of said dagger..reason for hunt.
I think Perrin lived many many lives as a Wolfbrother as well as being tied to Rand.
May be one reason he is still so upset at the chance of losing his humanity....just as Rand kept getting "I win again Lews Therin" which we know is false. Maybe Perrin kept losing his self to the wolf.
I am a firm believer in happy endings (fantasy after all) so think all 3 Taveren will survive but if one did betray Rand I would suspect Perrin over Mat because of the whole upcoming plotlines.
Jacy Clark
96. Amalisa
On the age issue:

972 NE: Tigraine disappears. She is Daughter Heir at the time of her disappearance. The Succession does not begin until after Queen Mordrellen's death. NOTE: Gitara Moroso was Queen Mordrellen's Advisor until the Queen's death.

973 NE: Tamra Ospenya is Raised as Amyrlin. She names Gitara as her Keeper of the Chronicles. NOTE: This puts Mordrellen's death as sometime during the 972 to 973 time period.

972 to 973 NE: Morgase, at not quite sixteen, leaves the White Tower and returns to Andor to fight for the Lion Throne. The Succession takes two years, and she marries Taringail to secure the throne (circa 974 to 975). NOTE: This puts Morgase's year of birth as 954 NE, at the earliest.

984 NE: Taringail is assassinated by Thom. NOTE: This puts both Elayne and Gawyn's births prior to 984 NE.

1000 NE: "The Path of Daggers"

So... Galad is, at least, 27 or 28 years old - and only that if Tigraine left while he was still a baby; he could be a year or two older. Gawyn is at least a couple of years older than Elayne; he remembers Gareth Bryne standing with him beside Elayne's cradle and explaining what it meant to be First Prince of the Sword. And if we use Egwene's year of birth for Elayne's (981 NE), then she is 18 or so as of TPoD, Gawyn is 20-ish, and Galad is late 20's.

Per Lini, Tallanvor has "several years on Galad", and Morgase "was playing with dolls when Tallanvor was born, and thinking that babes came the same way as dolls." For Tallanvor, his age would be early to middle thirties - probably closer to middle. Morgase would be anywhere from eight to ten years older than that.

Which, allowing for approximates and give-and-takes, works out just about right. Which still makes Morgase somewhat cougar-ish but also makes Tallanvor less of a boy-toy.

Now, I worked all of this out before caffiene, so feel free to check my calculations! *lol* (My information source was Encyclopaedia WOT.)

EDIT: The timeline from Seven Spokes confirms a lot of this, but actually puts Morgase's year of birth as 956 NE. Making her less a cougar and more a kitten...
Julian Augustus
97. Alisonwonderland
Tonyz @81
One last thing, and that's that Perrin and Rand made one big mistake when setting up this mission: they forgot to arrange for a secure communication channel.

I am almost certain the Ashaman attached to the mission was the secure communication channel, among other things. That is Rand's modus operandi. Problem is Perrin never even considered sending one of the Ashaman back to report to Rand what had happened. He was too busy moping about and making notches on his string.
Andrew Belmont
98. rosetintdworld
@several: (In best authoritative voice that will never work): Morgase has slowed. Sorilea has slowed. Both only a little bit. Anyone who has channeled a little bit will slow, only a little bit. Channeling extends your life span. Agelessness is completely different.

(And thank you, Randalator@92 for getting more in depth, so I didn't have to.)

Isilel@87: Bleh, agreed, although this is one of the issues that for some reason I have a little better time ignoring. Maybe because Jordan is a lot better about not saying things like "xyz is such a virgin" (which, to Randland's credit, seems to be a largely nonexistent concept,) than he is about saying things like "so-and-so is SO pretty and young looking, a bonfire beside so-and-so's candle..."

If I wanted to argue about none of the boys having a more experienced lover, I'd bring up Tylin. But given that Morgase has given us plenty of reason to talk about certain disgusting topics, I don't really want to go there. I will say that Egwene and Elayne's virginity never really bothered me at all. Elayne's upbringing explains that (Gawyn probably is a virgin too?) and for Egwene you've got the Papal imagery going on, so...

SteelBlaid@93: "One of the things we forget is that in WoT the only scientifically trained psychologist currently practicing is Grendal."

LOL!
Invisible Cheese
99. MatOdin
Randalator@92: The Kin don't have any of the 'almost agelessness' as they do almost anything they can to keep Aes Sedai from 'learning' about them. They only channel in emergencies (WIse Woman Delving the man who was dying in a duel) and generally maintain the utmost fear of Aes Sedai.
However, the Aiel Wise Ones channel all they feel like they have to. THEY LIVE IN THE WASTE! No Aes Sddai has ever gone there.
I'll just to my best guestimate to see how old Morgase is.
Let's say she was around 16 when she married Taringail and had Gawyn. Then, at 18 or so, she had Elayne. (Gawyn remembers barely being old enough to put his hand in Elayne's cradle to swear to protect her)
SOOO...
Morgase is roughly 36.
Invisible Cheese
100. MatOdin
I don't think that the slowing would really work for Morgase. Remember, Nynaeve is what 26, 30? and she looks 20. SHE is one of the most powerful female channelers there are, and she only has about a 6-10 year slowing effect.
comment number 100. LOL.
Captain Hammer
101. Randalator
Amalisa @96

This puts Morgase's year of birth as 954 NE, at the earliest.



Now, I worked all of this out before caffiene, so feel free to check my calculations! *lol* (My information source was Encyclopaedia WOT.)


Sound deduction with a minor miscalculation: If Morgase left the WT at not quite 16 in 972/973 NE it means Morgase's year of birth is in fact 956 NE at the earliest, just as Seven Spokes and my unworthy, humble self claim.


MatOdin @99-100

Morgase is roughly 36.

No. Proof: see above.

I don't think that the slowing would really work for Morgase. Remember, Nynaeve is what 26, 30? and she looks 20. SHE is one of the most powerful female channelers there are, and she only has about a 6-10 year slowing effect.

a) Word of God sez: Morgase is teh slows
b) Nynaeve is 26 pushing 27 and has a slowing factor of roughly 5 or 6 years. The difference to Morgase is that due to her strength at age 45 she will still look 21-ish. The gap between age and appearance is not linear. Women start to slow somewhere between 20 and 25 and from there on it depends on their strength how long exactely they stay in that general area. At age 300 Nynaeve will probably look like a woman in her early to mid 40s placing the gap at a lot more than Morgase's. Morgase's gap is already at its widest and will only narrow from here on out...
Julian Augustus
102. Alisonwonderland
Gah, double post!
Jacy Clark
103. Amalisa
@Randalator

I know... I saw that SevenSpokes confirmed your calculations. And I was erring on the side of making Morgase older. (Did my edit with the Seven Spokes link not show up? Because frankly I'm amazed that I could imbed any link at all! *lol*)

I think where people get hung up is with Galad's age. It's easy to put him in the same bracket with the rest of the "kiddies" when, per Seven Spokes, he and Logain are actually the same age. Interesting, huh...
Captain Hammer
104. Randalator
Amalisa @103

The link did show up. You just sounded a bit surprised as if you hadn't noticed where exactely the difference in results came from. So, ever the helpful, I pointed it out...
Jacy Clark
105. Amalisa
@Randalator

The Light knows I can always use the help! :D
Julian Augustus
106. Alisonwonderland
@all,
while it is somewhat entertaining to speculate on the correctness or otherwise of Morgase's "young Tallanvor" hangup, all our speculation is purely guesswork. Morgase's age can be reasonably accurately estimated at 43-44, but Tallanvor's age is complete guesswork. We are all assuming Lini is right when she states Tallanvor is older than Galad, but how would she know? By looking at him? Men looking much younger than their actual age, or boys looking older than their actual age (especially big 14-15 year olds who lie to get into the military) is fairly common. So Tallanvor could be anywhere from 10 to 20 years younger than Morgase, we have no way of knowing. I would accept Morgase's instinct on this one.
Jacy Clark
107. Amalisa
@Alisonwonderland

You have a point. We don't have Tallanvor's year of birth anywhere (that I can find) and that does put it purely in the speculation catagory. On the other hand, I'm leaning more toward the very wise Lini who (as J. Dauro said) is probably a pretty good judge of just about everything. Although, she did get the Perrin/Berelain thing all wrong...

Even more, I would think that Morgase would subconsciously amplify anything that might put a barrier between her and Tallanvor. Including years...
Jay Dauro
108. J.Dauro
Alisonwonderland @97

Except that Rand specifically instructed Perrin not to have any contact with him. TPOD-8
"They might be a touch more difficult than you were," he said dryly, and she smiled again. She smelled extremely pleased, for some reason. "I'm thinking about sending Grady or Neald to warn Rand, no matter what he said." She shook her head fiercely, smiles evaporating, but he pushed on. "If I knew how to find him, I would. There has to be some way to get word to him without anyone learning of it." Rand had insisted on that more than he had on secrecy about Masema. Perrin had been exiled from Rand's presence, and no one was to know anything remained between them except enmity.


Amalisa @107

Exactly. Morgase's real problem is not Tallanvor's age. So she magnifies the age difference to try to justify not accepting him.
a a-p
109. lostinshadow
way late to the party here I know but hey the weather was too nice to stay indoors with the computer on the first weekend I've had free since November.

boroqz @ 42 - that sounds like a really interesting job. :)

Wetlandernw touched on this above @84 but I'd like to add my voice to hers. To all those who think that it's ridiculous for Faile to expect Perrin to adopt her Saldean mores, I just have to say, it's not that simple. As anyone whose ever been in any kind of long(ish) term relationship with someone from a different culture can attest, a lot of what you expect from a partner is so deeply ingrained that you just can't help yourself. Your mind might tell you that a certain behavior doesn't mean the same thing to him as it does to you (i.e. how Faile thinks Perrin apologizing implies she is weak even though she does actually know he was raised differently) but years of cultural imprinting cause a knee jerk reaction. It's very hard to "get over it" and mind over matter is not as easy as it sounds.

Having lived in a lot of different cultures, I've had a lot of intercultural relationships, and I have a lot of friends who were or are i intercultural relationships and it's just very hard. When I started dating my (now) husband - who I actually went to kindergarten with and whose family's friendship with mine predates our existence - the first six months or so were so weird because for the first time in years I was not fighting through cultural miscues.

And most of my friends who went the international marriage route have divorced saying that corny as it may sound "love is simply not enough"

Just saying.

In reading the comments tonight, I've had my own personal epiphany that I like Faile the person even though she annoys me at times. She is actually a really plucky little thing and you know that girl has courage, and is able to get things done. And not by magic or luck or because she is a SG destined to be cool but because she has a brain and is capable of using all her training. Bet you she would have had got a much better deal with the Sea Folk had she been doing the bargaining!

That said, I still can't quite bring myself to like Faile and the reason is actually not anything she does (this is the epiphany part) but the person her relationship with Perrin has turned Perrin into. I used to like Perrin at the beginning and like many thought the wolf power was way cool and was annoyed he was afraid of it but also confident he'd embraced it. Instead his whole character became about Faile and once she gets captured his cool factor plummets to below redeemable.

So while Faile is actually a really cool character in and of herself I can't seem to forgive her for what happens with Perrin.

And I'm sorry I can't find who mentioned it above but I agree that personally I'm more worried about Perrin betraying Rand than Mat betraying Rand. Mat stands fast and true when it matters - we've seen that time and time again in the grip of his paranoia with the dagger, willingness to follow Elayne till no matter what. And Perrin? well he says it himself, it can all burn if he can't have Faile.

Well it's time to brew some drinks at the bunker. Since it's so sunny out today, I now declare Mojito season open at the bunker.

*Suffaida! where's the fresh mint?*
Antoni Ivanov
110. tonka
And Morgase has slowed! Robert Jordan told us in his blog :

- Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

And she looks 10 years older than Perrin which means that she looks 30ish when she is more than 40.


HERE some other interesting quotes about slowing from Robert Jordan:

Q: Does the rate of slowing depend on your strength in the Power?
RJ: Yes: Basically; you age at 1/X your normal rate, with X being dependent up to a point on Power strength. The Power acts as a natural rejuvenator on you; even at the point of death you won't look or feel worse than a normal 65-year-old.

Question: Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?
Jordan: No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow. You will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.


I asked Jordan when a man with the spark would slow...The answer is: Women usually slow at twenty, sometimes a little earlier, but usually around there. Men wouldn't slow until twenty-five, usually closer to thirty. He claims that they could go past thirty, but that probably depends on how early they start and how much they channel.


link

I cannot believe that any of Perrin or Mat would betray Rand. I am actually clueless how did you came to this idea ? Would anybody tell me ? I mean they are part of the tripod, if one leg of the tripod break, the whole fails.
Tricia Irish
111. Tektonica
lostinshadow@109:

In reading the comments tonight, I've had my own personal epiphany that I like Faile the person even though she annoys me at times. She is actually a really plucky little thing and you know that girl has courage, and is able to get things done. And not by magic or luck or because she is a SG destined to be cool but because she has a brain and is capable of using all her training. Bet you she would have had got a much better deal with the Sea Folk had she been doing the bargaining!

I agree....plucky is a good word for her. She ran away from home all the way to Illian to have an adventure, while very young. She goes after what she wants, starting with attaching herself to the "interesting group" of people she finds in The Dragon Reborn. She goes after Perrin with a vengence, and.....that's where things get confusing for me. I've tried and tried to understand what it is that Saldean women want, but I really really don't get it. I'm as confused as Perrin is, even with the omniscient viewpoint.

She isn't a bad person. Maybe it's a combination of her crazy Saldean customs and her youth. But she is strong, she gets things done and she's pretty smart. She's pretty much ruined the Perrin plot line for me. I just hope he figures out how to "be" with her and gets his Fu back.
Hilde Sørensen
112. edlihs
From The Ages of the Characters article on the Thirteenth Depository:

Gawyn Trakand - b. 975-978 NE, 22-25
Is “a little older than Elayne” in The Eye of the World, The Web Tightens, "a few years past twenty" in Lord of Chaos, Prologue, and the earliest he could have been born is 975 NE, since Taringail married Morgase after the Succession ended in 974.

Galad Damodred - b. 968-970 NE, 30-2
He was born prior to Tigraine’s disappearance in 972 NE (The Eye of the World, Glossary) and described as a young man in The Eye of the World, The Web Tightens. He was a child when Tigraine left in 972 NE and is too old to be Morgase’s son (A Crown of Swords, Irrevocable Words). Morgase is 43, so Galad is probably 30-32. He was probably about 2-4 when Tigraine left.

Tallanvor – b. 963-5 NE, 35-7
Is “a few years older than Galad and Galad is too old to be Morgase’s son. Morgase was playing with dolls when Tallanvor was born,” and ignorant of where babies came from (A Crown of Swords, Irrevocable Words). Galad is about 30-2 and Morgase is 43. Morgase must be less than 8 years older than Tallanvor to be ignorant of the facts of life.


Morgase Trakand - b. 957, 43
She was almost 16 when she contested the Succession in 972. Morgase looks young for her age because she has slowed (Robert Jordan on his blog), due to her successful attempt/s to channel the One Power.

Sorilea (Wise One) – b. prior to 870 NE, well over 130
The oldest Wise One with Rand. Her nephew is the grandfather of a man wanting to marry Enaila (The Fires of Heaven, The Fifth I Give You). She wants Egwene to marry her granddaughter’s youngest grandson (Lord of Chaos, Courage to Strengthen). Cadsuane suspects that Sorilea is about her own age in The Path of Daggers, New Alliances. She is well over 100, perhaps even as old as Cadsuane suspects.


And I add my voice to those who suspects Perrin more than Mat.
Tricia Irish
113. Tektonica
Tonka@110:

I think the idea of Mat betraying Rand started with Terez's theory about Gawyn killling Rand in the Battle of Caemlyn. She has a link to it over on the Open Thread at about 1083, I think. It's pretty interesting....

I hate to think about Mat even "inadvertently" betraying Rand. And I agree about the tripod too. ???
a a-p
114. lostinshadow
(I lent my books to someone so I can't check and my memory is foggy these days but) Actually I think the idea that Mat may betray Rand comes from when they went through the Portal Stones and afterward Mat tells Rand that he would never betray him.

Not sure why the possibility of maybe it will be Perrin who betrays Rand came up (suggesting an alternative assumes there's a hint that Rand will be betrayed by someone close to him and at the moment I can't remember what that could be (sorry claritin actually makes me forget my name sometimes so I don't think very clearly during allergy season) unless it's a hope invented by Mat lovers because we don't like the idea that Mat could betray Rand and since many of us are thoroughly fed up with emo Perrin it would be ok for him to be the betrayer?
Hilde Sørensen
115. edlihs
tonka@110
I cannot believe that any of Perrin or Mat would betray Rand. I am actually clueless how did you came to this idea ? Would anybody tell me ? I mean they are part of the tripod, if one leg of the tripod break, the whole fails.

From Character Parallels: Mat On the Thirteenth Depository:
Betrayer?

Mat sees his alternative lives in the If Worlds during the trip by Portal Stone to Falme. In at least one of those he betrayed Rand:

"Rand, I'd never tell anyone about - about you. I wouldn't betray you. You have to believe that!" He looked worse than ever, but Rand thought it was mostly fright.

- The Great Hunt, What Might Be

Yet Mat has denied knowing Rand to Tuon so convincingly she believed him (Knife of Dreams, As If the World Were Fog). Will Mat be like Peter, who denied Christ? A betrayal would tie in with Mat’s role as the Hanged Man, which in some Italian Tarot decks is named Traditore, traitor. In Renaissance Italy, traitors were hanged upside down by one foot, just like the figure on the Hanged Man Tarot card. It should be noted too that Judas hanged himself. Hopefully the knowledge Mat gained during the trip by Portal Stone that in an alternative life he betrayed Rand will prevent such a thing happening in this life. Unless he has made a firm promise, Mat – like all tricksters – is unreliable.
a a-p
116. lostinshadow
Oh yeah before I totally forget and since I am unlikely to manage to log on tomorrow

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!!!! to all you moms out there.

*pours another mojito and sulks cause mom is way too far away*
Captain Hammer
117. Randalator
tonka @110

I cannot believe that any of Perrin or Mat would betray Rand. I am actually clueless how did you came to this idea ? Would anybody tell me ? I mean they are part of the tripod, if one leg of the tripod break, the whole fails.

As she started around among the others, stopping briefly by each, Rand went to his friends. When he tried to straighten Mat, Mat jerked and stared at him, then grabbed Rand's coat with both hands. "Rand, I'd never tell anyone about — about you. I wouldn't betray you. You have to believe that!" He looked worse than ever, but Rand thought it was mostly fright.

"I do," Rand said. He wondered what lives Mat had lived, and what he had done. He must have told someone, or he wouldn't be so anxious about it. He could not hold it against him. Those had been other Mats, not this one. Besides, after some of the alternatives he had seen for himself . . . "I believe you. Perrin?"

The curly-haired youth dropped his hands from his face with a sigh. Red marks scored his forehead and cheeks where his nails had dug in. His yellow eyes hid his thoughts. "We don't have many choices really, do we, Rand? Whatever happens, whatever we do, some things are almost always the same."
(TGH, ch. 37)

They went through the alternative lives on their way to Toman Head via portal stone and Mat apparently betrayed Rand in enough lives that the impression stuck and he felt like he needed to both emphasize his loyalty and at the same time ask for Rand's forgiveness.

Since there are certain inevitable things in all these lives (Rand being the Dragon Reborn, for example, or as it seems Perrin becoming a wolfbrother) it has been speculated that Mat's inevitability might be said betrayal.

Although there has been even more speculation about what this betrayal might actually entail. I think, most of us believe that it wouldn't be an actual (like selling him out to the DO or going over to the Shadow) but more of a perceived betrayal. Mat's affiliation with Tuon and the Seanchan empire springs to mind...

Perrin betraying Rand is a more recent idea: Perrin claimed that the whole world can burn if it keeps Faile safe.

"Burn the Pattern," Perrin growled. "It can all burn, if it keeps her safe." Loial's ears went rigid with shock, and even Gaul looked taken aback.
(ACoS, ch. 3)

That was even before the Plot That Would Not Die and by then he is demonstrably in a state of mind where he would bargain the fate of the world against his wife, so betrayal candidate he is...
Eric Hughes
118. CireNaes
lostinshadow@109

"And most of my friends who went the international marriage route have divorced saying that corny as it may sound "love is simply not enough"

I can't tell you how hard it is to convince dating couples of this fact when I do singles conferences. It's a great observation and a powerful truth that can preserve marriages/relationships when recognized and compensated for by developing and accumulating commitment characteristics.
diane heath
119. jadelollipop
I was the one who mentioned Perrin as a possible betrayer over Mat because I see a lot of posts stating Mat will betray Rand (and the Portal Stone scene is one reason given). My point was that I don't think Mat will betray Rand. In those "other lives" apparently Rand failed to defeat the DO because he denied his destiny. (married Egwene, went mad, fought the Seanchan in Andor etc). At the time of the Portal Stone adventure Mat was under the influence of the Shadar Logoth dagger (if he had not been healed he would have been more like Fain IMO). Perrin stated that some things are always the same (becoming a Wolf Brother and being tied to Rand). I made the assumption that Perrin may have had a false ending in his lives as well --losing his humanity to the wolf.
I recognize the tripod simile (metaphor?) and believe they will reunite and work together although if one close to Rand does betray him I would think Perrin over Mat. It just seems that Perrin's arc peaked too soon and he was placed on a backburner for too long. Bornhald and Byar believe him to be a DF (under Fain influence in part) so how TOM resolves all of this is of great interest.
Heidi Byrd
120. sweetlilflower
I actually had some comments to make on these chapters, but others have pretty much said it all. I was reminded why I can't read the books along with Leigh b/c I just get sucked into them. I took PoD with me to get my oil changed yesterday morning thinking I would just read the two chapters...and I read the whole book. It amazes me that I have been reading these books for 15 years, and I still just CANNOT put them down. RJ was truly a genius and masterful writer.

I will say that I enjoy the whole Faile/Perrin/Shaido arc. Yes, it is painful to read about Perrin's emotional turmoil, but there are so many other interesting things going on that I can "tune out" his ramblings and focus instead on the world at large. Most of the other main characters are tied to large cities, so we get to see what is going on in the small towns through Perrin. Also, I really enjoy the whole Gaul/Chiad/Bair triangle thing. It is quite funny.
T C
121. Freelancer
Man-o-Manetheren@59

Yes.


Silvertip@66

Breeding for adaptations is not evolution, has absolutely no relationship to Darwin. Especially since those are intelligently engineered adaptations. They would argue more favorable for intelligent design than random mutation. Just saying, if you open that can, I will respond.


thepupxpert@67 & Man-o-Manetheren@76

Is doesn't require great strength or constant use of the Power to slow. It is natural, no matter how weak a channeler you are, though there is a variable influence by your strength. Morgase is older than she looks.


sps49@70

And she was married to the Damodred for a time prior to even having Gawyn.


subwoofer@75

Bring that mug of your within arms' reach, I'll show you vinegar.


rosetintdworld@80

That's because that's also the first time that Tallanvor has revealed his feelings for her. She saw how he looked at her, and immediately created a defense mechanism; he's too young.


Finally...

Betray Rand? Nobody from the Two Rivers would. Nobody.
Brandon Wood
122. brad21088
@1, Regarding your question about why Morgase gets snippy when Perrin saves her: I think it's because she's so sick and tired of being the damsel in distress. You have to remember she always considered herself to be a strong person. She was a queen, after all! used to leading and commanding an entire country, completely not accustomed to being rescued or feeling weak. Remember that by this point she's been broken down by torture and rape and has had to be saved multiple times by men. As awful as rape and torture are, it probably hits her in a different way. Being broken down, for her, was probably worse than the physical acts themselves. It's one thing to recover from a psychological wound and quite another to have to do that AND reconcile the fact that you're not as strong as you thought you were (and I'm not saying that she's not a strong person. She clearly is. What I'm saying is that SHE doesn't see it that way. She thinks she's weak for breaking down so easily; for giving in. There's a quote from the previous book that backs me up, but I don't have it in front of me at the moment...).
Jacy Clark
123. Amalisa
Changing the subject...

There is one little thing that stretches credibility with me, regarding the meeting up of the Morgase and Perrin/Faile story lines. Two, really, but the reasoning is the same.

Why is it that none of the three Aes Sedai with Perrin recognized Morgase? Even if they had never laid eyes on her, you would think that a fairly accurate description of one of the most preiminent rulers in Randland would be common knowledge among Aes Sedai. Enough so that someone would at least remark that this Maighdin bears a striking resemblance to Morgase. Or did they, and I just missed it?

Consider Annoura, who is a Gray and supposedly up on all things political. Or, for that matter, Seonid who is from Cairhien - considering the ties between Cairhien and Andor. I don't know how old they are but Annoura, at least, has achieved the ageless look. Seonid has Bonded two Warders. Masuri has been Aes Sedai long enough to have encountered seven packs of Darkhounds. What I'm saying is that all three of them have been Aes Sedai long enough that they may have even seen Morgase during her two years in the Tower. The scion of an important Andoran House would engender some notice in the White Tower, even if the girl had only negligible strength. At least, I would think so. Does the mere rumor of Morgase's death automatically keep them from seeing who she is?

And while we're on the subject of folks not recognizing folks... Elyas (yes, I'm jumping the gun here a little). He's a renegade Warder of a living Green sister. He's using his real name. Granted he doesn't recognize Masuri when he sees her but she's a Brown. Seonid, as mentioned earlier, is a Green. You'd think she would recognize the name "Elyas Machera", or her Warders would. We never see, that I recall, any direct interaction between Elyas and Seonid, but they are together in the same place at the same time on more than one occasion - spying on the Shaido camp, in So Habor, meeting with Masema. And Elyas does scout with Seonid's Warders...

I don't know. It just seemed odd that nobody recognizes anybody...
Luke M
124. lmelior
Morgase doesn't come forward because Perrin is "the Dragon's Henchman" and accidentally used the phrase "Rand wants to put Elayne on the throne". Which of course is the magic code phrase which causes Andoran noblewomen's noses to shoot straight in the air and their brains to turn off.

From Morgase's point of view it really does sound like Rand wants to use Elayne as a pawn. So I'm okay with Morgase's reasoning here because she doesn't know about them. But yeah, Elayne should know better.
Darth Touma
125. Silvertip
Freelancer @121:

As you imply, this is not the place for the argument. On the "meta" level, however, I will note that the entire first chapter of The Origin of Species is concerned with "Variation Under Domestication," as what we now call "artificial selection" played a major role in the development of the theory. An important later section is titled "Inherited Changes of Habit or Instinct in Domesticated Animals". Nothing to do with it? Hardly. And just so you know, you're stepping approximately as hard on my toes here as I would be to you if I implied that aircraft carriers are useless.

(If you're interested, Francis Collins, the current head of NIH and as sincere a Christian as you would ever hope to meet, has a marvelous book from a couple of years ago on reconciling the evolutionary and evangelical perspectives.)

And, now that we've each laid down our marker, I'll call a (unilateral, if necessary) cease fire, and get out of the way of the folks who would like to continue discussing poor Morgase.

||extends hand||

Cheers,

S
Kim B
126. Amaranthine
I never understood why people dislike Faile so much; I have always assumed that she did not know about Perrin's smelling abilities, because how would she know? He never told her.
Thanks for clearing that up by explaining why you've always disliked Faile, Leigh- and I'm glad that you figured it out! I'm sure that this is how we were meant to understand Faile; I doubt that Robert Jordan would have made her irritating on purpose.
Alice Arneson
127. Wetlandernw
HArai @51 - This is awesome! I'm so used to arguing minutiae with you that it feels strange to agree with you!! Especially that last paragraph. EXACTLY.

HArai @58 - Hey, you're making a habit of this!! I agree again! And it probably was me talking about time-frames. I've found something very addictive in Steven Cooper's WoT Chronology, and I refer to it frequently. I can't believe anyone would go to all the effort he has, to sort out the timeline of all the events in WoT, but I'm grateful that he not only did it, but shared it with us all. It's been amazing to be able to refer to it and realize just how little time has passed for the characters in some of these plot-lines.

insectoid @60 - Oh, yeah.
Berelain: ::removes glasses::

*headdesk*

::puts glasses back on:: Ow. Better.
Yeah. I loathe that woman in this whole thing. *headdesk* doesn't even begin to describe it. I think perhaps we're somewhat in the minority, since I've heard a lot of people opine that Perrin would be better off with Berelain than Faile, since they like the former better, but... I like Faile, and I loathe Berelain, and there you have it.

Terez27 @85 - Yeah, to some extent. More, I like seeing the big picture as revealed throughout the books. When it comes to speculating on what's coming in the rest of the books, I tend to like the little things; I'd rather get the "big picture" revelations by way of the book itself, with all the buildup and careful word-smithing of a well-written book. Just me. :) Wish I could have been at JordanCon to meet you, though!

SteelBlaidd @93 - Hey! Missed you! Excellent and powerful, if painful, example of how the head, the instinct and the emotion can be not only "not on the same page," but sometimes not even in the same book.

lostinshadow @109 - I agree with much that you say (most of it, really) except that I don't hold Faile to blame for the changes in Perrin - at least, not the ones that really bother me. I personally feel that most of the blame should fall on Berelain, who is doing her very best to make Perrin's marriage a living hell. More accurately, I suppose, she's trying to make Faile's life/marriage a living hell, but Perrin is caught in the middle, he's the tool, and I think it has more negative effects on him than on Faile.

@several re: The Betrayal. This is by no means a certainty. AFAIK, speculation began after the Portal Stone trip to Falme, when Mat tells Rand "you know I would never betray you." At first, some people believed this to be a foreshadowing that Mat would betray Rand; later, as people seemed to buy into the idea that there would definitely be a betrayal, they started to speculate in other completely unfounded ways - in this case, that Perrin would do the betraying. IMHO it's one of the... interesting... side effects of having so many fans (i.e. NOT part of Team Jordan) doing lots of research and speculation, and then posting these well-written articles, which are read and completely bought into by "the great fandom." Far too many people accept anything posted on these sites as proven fact, forgetting that it's all only fan speculation. Informed speculation, but still only speculation.
Thomas Keith
128. insectoid
Been busy again, but stopped by to say:

Wet @127: Re: Berelain... Yeah! Sometime in the last 2 books I'd like to see Galad teach her what is right. ;)

::yawn:: 0x80.

Bzzz™.
Theresa Gray
129. Terez27
Randalator@117

and

Freelancer@121

Pretty much what Randalator said. No one believes that Mat would betray Rand in the most common sense of the word. It's very feasible that he would accidentally betray Rand, though, and that he would somehow unintentionally contribute to Rand's death (like via the medallion) to complete the Judas parallel. It's also possible that his personality might lend to an accidental betrayal, thinking back to the scene in the baths at the Stag and Lion, in Baerlon, when Mat blabbed about the Trollocs in the Two Rivers, and Lan had a cow about it. If Rand is to sneak up on Shayol Ghul without anyone knowing he's coming (perhaps with Aviendha's little ter'angreal dagger), then there is an opportunity for Mat to betray Rand (by telling someone that he is alive, which he would know via the ta'veren color swirls, while everyone thought Rand was dead), and also an opportunity for Perrin to play Peter and deny Rand three times (though, unlike with Peter, this would be a good thing). Also, there is an opportunity for Mat to 'betray' the fact that Rand is alive when he blows the Horn, and Rand is not there.
Darth Touma
130. Der_Wikinger
Nobody seemed to have risen to the "arranged marriage" bait Leigh dropped with such subtlety overboard in the end of her last comment.

I'm assuming most people here in the forum prefer Western style marriages where the people involved choose their mates, instead of having a matchmaker ( usually the couple's parents ) choose for them.
Given the high divorce rate for "Western Style" marriages, I think it's safe to say that there's either something wrong with the marriage practice / institution or with the participants in it.

Unfortunately, I don't have any statistics regarding divorce among couples who had an arranged marriage. Perhaps, someone will back me up with the pertinent facts, but I seem to recall that arranged marriages do have a lower rate of divorce.
I'm interested in learning what most commenters here believe the causes for modern divorce are. Could it be that it's time to rethink "romance" marriages. Could it be better for society if the parental wisdom so often rebuked gets a little more trust.

What if the purpose of a marriage wasn't the total satisfaction of one person's needs ? What if the aim of marriage was to get to know, understand, co-operate and finally love another individual in this ordered progression ? What if a marriage was supposed to transcend the realm of a couple and belong to a greater sphere of extended family, clan or even community ?
Theresa Gray
131. Terez27
The causes of modern divorce are simple: divorce is allowed. This is a good thing, because people (particularly women) are no longer required to suffer through a horrible marriage forever. Typically in the past, divorce was only allowed when adultery (usually only on the part of the woman) could be proven.

Arranged marriages are not well thought of in modern, civilized societies for the same reason. Nowadays we think people should have a right to choose who they marry. Radical, I know, but there it is.
Birgit
132. birgit
She thinks she's weak for breaking down so easily; for giving in. There's a quote from the previous book that backs me up, but I don't have it in front of me at the moment...

She had always thought she was brave enough to do whatever needed doing, to face whatever came; she had always believed she could pick herself up and continue to fight. In one endless hour, without leaving more than a few bruises that were already fading, Rhadam Asunawa had begun teaching her differently. Eamon Valda had completed her education with one question. The bruise her answer had left on her heart had not faded. She should have gone back to Asunawa herself and told him to do his worst. She should have ...
Cowardice. Outrage welled up in Morgase, yet no words came. Her fingers knotted in the sheet. She did not think she could have decided in cold blood to lie with Valda, but had she, she could have lived with it. She thought she could. Another matter entirely to say yes because she feared facing Asunawa's knotted cords and needles again, feared worse that he would have gotten to eventually. However she had screamed under Asunawa's ministrations, Valda was the one who had showed her the true borders of her courage, so far short of where she had believed. Valda's touch, his bed, could be forgotten, with time, but she would never be able to wash the shame of that "yes" from her lips.


ACoS ch. 26
Darth Touma
133. Lsana
@87 Isilel,

So much for my happy little delusion. Why would the women give up their third names when they married? Unless it was just Ilyena? Maybe she comes from a famous family and decided she wanted to keep the tie to them as a 3rd name? Okay, I'm grasping at straws here, but I'm trying to come up with a way that the AOL wasn't as sexist as this implies.

For that matter, it makes the manner of address pretty sexist as well. Men are referred to by first and last name (Lews Therin, Elan Morin, Tel Jannin) but women are only called by first names (Mierin, Ilyena). Blah.

I could understand why women might take their husband's family name (it's easier on the kids if everyone has the same name, tradition says you go with the husband's name), but it makes no sense whatsoever in an "egalitarian" society for women to give up their honors when they marry.
Theresa Gray
134. Terez27
In TGS, Rand called Moridin 'Elan', without the 'Morin'. That might have been a BS-ism, but I don't think anyone has referred to him as 'Elan Morin' in the entire series (not that there has been much opportunity - this man has more names than any other character).

In the BWB, it uses the first two names to refer casually to the Forsaken who have three names, but it uses one name to refer casually to the Forsaken with two names. For instance, Balthamel is referred to as 'Eval' after his full name is given (two names), and Graendal is referred to as Kamarile Maradim after her full name is given (three names). The BWB is consistent on that. So it seems to be a matter of whether or not you have a third name. The single name thing might be something that is only done when you are quite close to the person in question, like Rand calling Moridin 'Elan' and Lews Therin calling his wife 'Ilyena'.

Of course, Lanfear and Moridin always refer to Lews Therin as Lews Therin, and Lanfear never gives Ilyena any other name (though I think she only calls her by name once). And the BWB also uses the single name Ilyena once, in the blurb about Lanfear.
Darth Touma
136. chaplainchris
@91 RobMRobM - um. You're missing the point. Morgase wasn't running away from Perrin, she was running away from Tallanvor and Co. She *does* have PTSD, and she's already been shown, at least once, to be on the brink of being suicidal - when she abdicated her next move was going to be to throw herself off a ledge at the Fortress of Light and fall to her death. She's not thinking straight, can't bear to be around people or deal with Tallanvor's feelings for her. That's why she's running.

And it may be that captivity with the Aiel was good for her - forcing her to focus on the present rather than the past, and recovering her spirit.

@ various re: Morgase slowing - per Elayne's explanation of slowing, *how much* you slow varies depending on how strong you are, but *when* (and, I infer, *whether*) you slow generally does not. Also, slowing is not a matter of being Aes Sedai or using the power alot. That's a myth born of Aes Sedai ignorance of what the Oath Rod does. The Oath Rod eventually leads to the Ageless look, but slowing happens whether or not the Oath Rod is involved. Without the ageless look, you just look younger than you should.

All of that is to say that Morgase is so weak in the power that she won't slow remarkable amounts - I doubt we'll see 5-6oo year lifespans for her! But she did slow and will have a remarkably long life. How long, we don't know; but it may be a good idea for her to get past her liking for older men and learn to be interested in younger, since she's gonna outlive the normal ones!

@ various re: Perrin changing his whole plan - well, that *is* leadership. Your plan is only good until real life happens, then you have to adjust. And I respect Perrin a whole lot for his reasons - putting an end to banditry and oppression of the common folks. Secrecy be d*mned, they're cutting off people's ears!!!!

@ various especially Tektonica at 94: you're absolutely right about the difference between *knowing* something and being able to adjust your emotional responses to it! I spent a summer in another country doing humanitarian work (from U.S., spent in Philippines) and was educated in many cultural differences. This didn't mean that sometimes the differences didn't smack you in the face or create stress and tension. F'r example, I had a *really* hard time with the hospitality culture - so friendly, but people wanting to make me things or feed me or clean up after me - especially, women waiting on me, when a) I was there to help, and b) believe in egalitarianism.

One of my biggest blunders, halfway through the summer when the cultureshock was getting a foothold - I refused to let a young woman wash my dishes, I insisted on washing my own. Really egalitarian and helpful...I reduced her to tears.

Luckily, unlike WOTers, we talked it through afterwards. But the point is, knowing a culture is different doesn't mean you don't instinctively react against it sometimes.

@132 birgit. God. Poor Morgase.

@ various - The Plotline that Won't Die is really painful at times. But I don't agree that Perrin loses all his Awesomeness to it. Even if you think he did for awhile, he's in full-on Awesome mode by KoD. He's put together this incredible alliance and this awesome plan and *WE HAVE HIM TO THANK FOR GETTING RID OF THE SHAIDO!!* Alleluia! Talk about a plot that won't die. Can't wait for the re-read to reach KOD so we can say - bye Therava, Sevanna, et. al! Don't miss you a bit!

Also, re: Perrin and betrayal - iirc in TGS Perrin is doing some soul-searching and beginning to conclude that his "let the Pattern burn except for Faile" attitude has to go. Like others, I don't see Perrin or Mat betraying Rand (though Mat doing some unintentional betryal is still possible, of course).
R B
137. MasterAlThor
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY

To all you MOM's (not M-O-M) you're the best. Have fun today.

Alrighty, on to what else I have to say.

I read the post on Friday but wasn't able to comment. I was busy.

So without reading the comments here are my thoughts.

Neald may have an affinity for Air. Wonder if anything will come of it?

Perrin and Faile BS continues.

Letsseewomenareallcrazy

Faile's thoughts here are about the only time I actually like her.

And thanks to Leigh for pointing out that Faile might not know about Perrin's ability. That was an eye opener.

And now I will go back and read the post.

GraduatedDragon
Hugh Arai
138. HArai
Wetlandernw@127: It's on the complex or veiled motivations that we tend to disagree on how to interpret minutiae. We draw different conclusions because the data is spare and supports multiple possibilites. Perrin is so refreshingly straight forward about his motivation that I'd be surprised if we weren't on the same page. I don't think we'll be arguing over Loial's plans either :)
Darth Touma
139. alreadymadwithbetrayal
CireNaes @118
I happen to believe physical contact is a major factor in ensuring a marriage works. Long distance relationships aren't really impossible, however it is one thing to form bonds while separated by vast distances, and quite another thing to maintain those distances even after the relationship has been formalized into a marriage.

insectoid @128
The image of Galad turning Berelain over his lap is an image i'll treasure for a very long time... sweet

chaplainchris @136
You! How dare you refuse Filipino hospitality! Just kidding, LOL. Hey everybody knows you're there to help, cleaning up after you was the least they could do, is how the mindset works.

On the betrayal issue:
It's hard to tell why Mat would be so worried about betraying Rand just after the Portal Stones incident. We aren't given any other details on what the others went through. What did Verin go through and did her experiences compare in difficulty to going through the Acceptatron? Based on how the story has turned out thus far though, Mat's primary fear seems to be that his own independent nature would lead him to take up a wildly divergent path from the one Rand and Perrin took. As in abandoning them early on in the game and being alone, now more easily coerced to the side of their enemies. Perrin for his part, seems more concerned by being a Wolfbrother in all his incarnations. I'd agree with what others say though. As things stand, nobody from the Two Rivers would dare betray Rand.
Tricia Irish
140. Tektonica
Various, re: Mat/Perrin betraying Rand:

I, for one, hope that neither of them betrays Rand, and I hope that Free is correct, that no one from the Two Rivers would betray Rand.

RJ has a way of borrowing from legend and epics and history but changing it and recombining various stories. I hope this is one of those instances. Red herrings have been written in, legends have been combined and I trust the outcome will be something new and surprising.
Julian Augustus
141. Alisonwonderland
Amaranthine @126
I never understood why people dislike Faile so much; I have always assumed that she did not know about Perrin's smelling abilities, because how would she know? He never told her.

plus M-A-T @137:
And thanks to Leigh for pointing out that Faile might not know about Perrin's ability. That was an eye opener.

and similar sentiments expressed earlier. Whether Faile knew or did not know that Perrin was aware of her anger is completely beside the point.

JennB stated the real issue perfectly in 63:
Just because she does not know the mechanism by which he senses her anger does not mean she does not know he senses it.

He is pleading with her to communicate with him and she refuses.

Leigh's Epiphany is a red herring.
j p
142. sps49
Re: names

A decision would have to be made for children. What will the family name be for them? Whatever it is, if one parent keeps a different name, then they will be the odd person out. The only way out of this is if both parent change to a third, unrelated surname, which will make every surname meaningless over time.

And don't suggest hypenated-surnaming. That gets unwieldy at the first generation used.

My Mexican "family" members historically use Christianname_Paternalsurname_Maternalmaidenname, with the paternal surname used as family (last)name on US dox. Some cousin branches got misnamed due to miscommunication.

So where does this leave us? Generally, all human societies use one parent's name as the family name, and most of those use the father's. I do not expect an author to solve this to everyone's satisfaction.
Hugh Arai
143. HArai
Lsana@133:

For that matter, it makes the manner of address pretty sexist as well. Men are referred to by first and last name (Lews Therin, Elan Morin, Tel Jannin) but women are only called by first names (Mierin, Ilyena). Blah.


Well, the Forsaken are hardly chatty and friendly so refering to each other by full name isn't much of a stretch. Similarly Lews Therin is more or less an obsession with them - full name. The times I recall Ilyena's mention as a single name were by Rand/Lews Therin and by Lanfear. Lanfear is not exactly motivated to show Ilyena respect and well, three names is a mouthful for your one true love and mother of your children. Similarly, the times Lanfear gets refered to as Mierin are times showing either emotional closeness or lack of respect.

In any event, extrapolating from the modes of address between 15 people who have serious history with each other to the sexism of their entire society strikes me as a big leap.

Alisonwonderland@141:

He is pleading with her to communicate with him and she refuses.


If that's your sole basis of dislike for Faile, I'm not sure why she's such a hot spot. Every female character I can think of and the vast majority of male characters do exactly that at various times. Exceptions would be hmm, Loial and Hurin?
Thomas Keith
144. insectoid
AMW @139:
The image of Galad turning Berelain over his lap is an image i'll treasure for a very long time... sweet
Glad I could help! LOL ;)

*twitch* 0x90.

Bzzz™.
Noneo Yourbusiness
145. Longtimefan
I wonder if everyone feels that this is a plot that would not die or if it is only a feeling from the majority of people who had to wait for the books at this point.

Someone earlier pointed out that the in story time line is about four months. A month a book. That is not unreasonable in such a complicated tale with so many characters involved in so many threads.

However, the waiting was seven years in real time for those who were grabbing every copy the minute it hit the shelves. Seven years is a long time for four months to pass.

For those who have just started the series try waiting about 2 years between reading each book. :) Then you may understand why so many people have a grudge against this storyline.

Beside the fact that it took a pretty decent character and darkened his edges quite a bit.

I liked fresh Perrin, I am not as fond of Cajun Style Perrin.
Darth Touma
146. chaplainchris
@145 Longtimefan - a month a book is...approaching ridiculous. IMO, and admitting that I enjoyed all the books...the story still stretched out too far. Not terminally too far, but too far nonetheless.

Like most of my posts. :) Poster child for brevity I am not.

And yes, Cajun Style :) hand-cutting off Perrin is tough to watch.

@143 Harai - re: not singling out Faile for hatred b/c she doesn't communicate; yes, exactly. This is perhaps the major theme, after all. At least it leads to a drinking game.

For the record, there are times where I'd like to smack (not spank) all the characters, but I like all the major ones, and semi-major ones like Faile and Berelain, too. Galad's redeemed himself a lot in my eyes from my initial dislike...and Gawyn's doing his best to make me hate him, and more or less succeeding, but I try to remember that he was once likable and hold out hope.

@141 Alisoninwonderland - Leigh's epiphany is not a red herring. If the WOT were black and white, it would be (er...red...black and white...whatever, mixed metaphors FTW!). But it's not, anymore than life is. For a lot of us, even a lot of us inclined to like aspects of Faile, her behavior toward Perrin seemed off the charts passive aggressive, in that we assumed she knew exactly how Perrin was feeling and refused to make things any easier for him.

Now, we have to back off from that and realize that she's not in his head the way we are. Because the key isn't if Faile knows that Perrin can tell she's angry sometimes; one assumes that at least some of the time she is. But she doesn't know the certainty with which he feels it, or how confused he is by it, or how helpless he feels. We know that b/c we're in his head. She's not. And she doesn't know the extent of his smell-power, so can't reasonably be expected to extrapolate the thoughts of his that we are privy too.

Which makes her passive-aggressive/refusal to communicate stuff not full-on intentional and hard-hearted; instead, it's a more reasonable, more human way of relating. It's something that's part of almost any relationship. It doesn't even have to be a significant other thing - how many of you have been asked what was wrong and said "nothing" even when there was? Communication, it is good, but the expectation that someone communicate all their feelings while they're upset w/complete vulnerability is also unreasonable.

I'm creating a wall of text and being unclear. What I'm trying to say is that, as Leigh suggests, this doesn't completely excuse Faile's behavior, but it does mitigate it. She may know he sees her anger sometimes, but she can't know the full extent of his knowledge or how much it bothers him...in part b/c the failure of communication goes both ways.

So, shades of grey involving the blame for Perrin and Faile's relationship woes.
diane heath
147. jadelollipop
I agree that the wait between books makes the plot lines seem longer. I noted that in my re-read last year waiting for Gathering Storm. I noticed that the Andor succession line went a lot faster and a lot of Perrin's plotline went quicker...but I freely admit to skipping a lot of Faile in captivity in my previous re-read.
Re: waiting for a book impacting its status in the line up....I honestly don't remember which one I had to really wait for. I am old (er) so memory fails. :)
I do know I have a strong dislike of POD compared to the rest so it may have been the one I waited for.
John Massey
148. subwoofer
Skipped over Faile like the plague.

Skipped over driven Perrin as the two arcs were so connected.

I was feeling very fruity over all the skipping going on.

Still can't do any flippin' links:(

Woof™.
John Massey
149. subwoofer
@AMW- yes, Berelain has been bad! We will send her to your room.

@Insectoid- those numerals... are you claiming to be 80 then 90 proof?
-a concerned alcoholic.

Woof™.
Darth Touma
150. AndrewB
chaplainchris @146: "Leigh's epiphany is not a red herring ... So, shades of grey involving the blame for Perrin and Faile's relationship woes."

Well said. My sentiments exactly.

Prior to TGS, Faile and Nynaeve were neck and neck my least favorite characters. I could not decide which of the two should die first. Post TGS, I have some measure of respect for Faile (e.g. the scene in the prologue and the scene with her and the others remebering the Brotherless).

That said, I would have rather RJ told the story so that Perrin ended up w/ Berelaid (er, I mean Berelain). But RJ chose otherwise. As the story stands, there is no way Berelain will end up with Perrin.

I still do not like the Faile very much (mostly because of her Saldean thoughts on marriage). However, as Faile's thoughts indicate, I think she has grown up.

Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
John Massey
151. subwoofer
Well- Perrin/Faile relationship.

Reminds me of some of the guy talk I have when I get together with some of my fellow married men. That and the usual sports talk.

For instance, when I tell my wife "the sky is blue", I am saying to her that the sky is blue.

When she tells me "the sky is blue", I am supposed to delve into and read between the lines and garner that something is taking her away from a good day/mood etc.

Where this goes sideways is if my wife thinks I mean something else altogether when I say "the sky is blue".

And when she tells me "the sky is blue", and I am a numb nut and take her thoughts at face value, well, boy that blows up in my face.

Sub in me and wife for Perrin and Faile.

Woof™.
Thomas Keith
152. insectoid
LTF @145: Cajun Style Perrin... LOL!!

Sub @149: No worries, Sub—I've never drank alcoholic bevs. The numbers are the hexadecimal equivalent of the comment number (so, 0x80=128, 0x90=144, etc.). You know... hexadecimal, hexapod, Insectoid, that kind of thing. Needed something to compete with Blind's triskaidekaphilia. ;)

Bzzz™.
Sandy Brewer
153. ShaggyBella
I am thinking that at the time of the Portal Stone traveling, Rand was very concerned with anyone finding out he could channel. It was new and scary for Rand, Mat and Perrin. I think that was what Mat was referring to....someone finding out about that. Rand hadn't accepted being the Dragon Reborn yet, until after Falma. Worry about betrayal at the final battle, would be pretty far into the future.
Alice Arneson
154. Wetlandernw
Der Wikinger @130 - You really like canned worms, don't you? Okay, I'll be a target. As divorce has been made easier, people jump into stupid marriages more and more easily because they know they can always get back out as soon as the marriage becomes inconvenient, boring, or . I'm not in favor of "arranged marriages" in the way that some cultures have done it, where the couple is betrothed when they are children or without even knowing one another, particularly when it's arranged as a matter of advantage to the parents. I am, however, very much in favor of parental involvement in the process of courtship. If a young man has to convince the girl's father that he not only desires to, but will be able to take care of and provide for his daughter, it makes the man take the whole thing a little more seriously. If a girl knows that she doesn't have to give in to the pressure from a man, because she has her family's support in refusing a man she's not sure of, you would have fewer of those "horrible marriages" some like to hold up as reason for easy divorce being a good thing. (How many of us know women who married a guy who was already abusive, because she was afraid of what he'd do if she said no? Or women who married a project - "he's not much now, but I know I can bring out the best in him if I marry him." Gah!)

Parents need to invest themselves in their children, so that the children trust their parents and can confide in them. Those children can and will wholeheartedly seek the advice of their parents when considering marriage, knowing that the parents want them to be happy and have a fulfilling marriage. Those parents, wanting the best for their children and not being driven by raging hormones to ignore their common sense, can help the children find wisdom in their choices for marriage.

As one friend says, his (very pretty) daughter had a great line for unwanted boys who would ask her out: "I'm sorry, my dad says I can only marry a man, and you don't qualify." That same daughter, when she couldn't really give a reason for not wishing to marry a particular young man but knowing that she did NOT want to accept his proposal, and yet not wishing to hurt his feelings, was able to go to her father and talk with him about it. Although he knew nothing against the young man, he respected his daughter's feelings and spoke with the young man, asking him to back off in his pursuit. (That father and daughter have a fantastic relationship.) She is now very happily married, with children. I have no idea whether she married that same young man or someone else (the latter, I suspect), but that's the kind of confidence I want my daughter to have, knowing that she doesn't have to figure it all out on her own.

Okay, now you can all jump up and down on me. :) 'Sokay - I'm confident in where I stand: Marriage must be for those who love, but neither warm fuzzies nor overactive hormones are sufficient basis for marriage. If you can't respect as well as love the person you marry, it's not going to work very well. And it must go both ways. Those with a little distance but deep investment in you as a person (i.e., parents!) can help you to see more clearly whether that is the case.

Oh, and divorce? It would rarely be needed.
Darth Touma
155. Croaker
I think my favorite line is this:

She thinks that Faile’s husband may not be nobly-born, but Faile certainly is, and her youth and inexperience may be of benefit to Maighdin.

To me this is the one time she is thinking like the master game of houses player we all know she is. I always found it funny that for all of Faile's, "I'm the sneakiest bad ass wife on the planet" crap, she had no idea that she has the freaking QUEEN OF ANDOR right in front of her!

I've always thought that if Morgase had not been operating minus a wagon wheel after all she had been through; she would have been manipulating Faile into doing exactly what she wanted pretty quickly.

I guess I just have no patience with this story line. I have known women like Faile, and I feel for Perrin. I know that fiction likes to portray them as "fiery" or "multi-dimensional," but in real life they are actually thought of as "psycho" or "exhausting." I mean is there anyone here that would want to be married to this woman? I mean can you imagine? Life is too short for this kind of drama.

This is not a sexist thing either. Imagine if it was Perrin acting like this. Everyone would be like, “freaking jealous insecure A-hole. She should totally leave him before he goes all Ike Turner on her.”

Plus I think if Perrin had not been able to get to her she totally would have slept with the Aiel dude.
Theresa Gray
156. Terez27
Wetlandernw@154 - I'm not so sure that people jump into marriages more quickly now than before, because before divorce was allowed, it was pretty much a social requirement to get married. If anything, the numbers of those who never marry at all are increasing, though it is still a social requirement in many ways. For example, if you want to run for president, you have to be married. It's not a hard rule, but it's definitely an unwritten one, and it generally applies to elected office. Same goes for pastors/preachers in religions that do not require celibacy of their church leaders. These unwritten rules are changing, but slowly.

So strange, that I came over here for moar WoT, and ended up talking about marriage, of all things...I am 32 and single! (quite by choice)
Captain Hammer
157. Randalator
Croaker @155

Plus I think if Perrin had not been able to get to her she totally would have slept with the Aiel dude.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. That's something I wouldn't hold against Faile...
Tricia Irish
158. Tektonica
Wetlandernw@154:

IMHO, marriage is a choice to make very seriously, once, if possible. I am glad that divorce exists as a last resort though. Women (and men) should not have to endure misery or abuse just because they said "I Do." I don't think people take it as seriously as they should, in general. Live together if you must, but don't get legally entangled until you are ready for commitment. (I know I'll get shot at for that remark! **ducks into the bunker**)

I totally agree with your assessment of marriage and parents' involvement with their kids. My daughter became an alien from 14-20 (she's fully recovered herself by 24). My husband's mom had the best advice....she said,

"You have to love them the most when they are the most unloveable."

It served us well, although it was very difficult at times, as we now have a wonderful, close relationship. She seeks our advice and counsel, as she knows we care like no one else ever will (unless she picks Mr. Right, perhaps). That kind of foundation, rapport and trust go a long way to steering kids into the best choices....in many things.

Edit: Looks like it's time for a new reread, as we are now officially completely off topic!
R B
159. MasterAlThor
Welcoming fresh meat....errr I mean new members. Yay!!!

Welcome porus, nabcif and Salt King.

And now on to our regularly scheduled program.


Randalator @44

LOL. Yeah that's right.

Sulin @56 Thanks for the drinks, Suffa I'll have a Cherry Mojito.

Freelancer,

Great analysis as always.

Wetlander @84

Hey take it from me, there is more to the We (insert adjective here) Faile Club than just her winning disposition.

Wetlander @154

*standing o* Well said. Bravo. Hear hear. More more.

I read your post here and I know what you really wanted to say but didn't. I mean I think that you had more but restrained yourself from saying it as to not start a flamewar. This is my opinion, I could be reading too much into it.

jemnyu,

Berelain is a slut??? Bad character does not equate one to be a slut. If you can prove textually that she is I will shut up about it.

Most will point to TDR when she is introduced and her willingness to sleep with Rand without even knowing him.

Sorry that is a political move. Not one that I condone but still it is a political move. Does this disqualify her from being a slut. No. But that would be one person that we know that she has gotten nekkid in front of.

Where are the others??? I believe that it may be implied but that is not proof.

So I say again prove it, and I will shut up.

MorningDragon
R B
160. MasterAlThor
Croaker,

I guess I just have no patience with this story line. I have known women like Faile, and I feel for Perrin. I know that fiction likes to portray them as "fiery" or "multi-dimensional," but in real life they are actually thought of as "psycho" or "exhausting." I mean is there anyone here that would want to be married to this woman? I mean can you imagine? Life is too short for this kind of drama.


To answer your question....crazy people.

This is not a sexist thing either. Imagine if it was Perrin acting like this. Everyone would be like, “freaking jealous insecure A-hole. She should totally leave him before he goes all Ike Turner on her.”


You are right.

AgreeingDragon
Marcus W
161. toryx
General Statements:

I like Faile, and I like Berelain. I don't like scenes with the both of them together, however. And I blame most of Faile's quirks on her upbringing and youth. If she and Perrin had more time, I think they'd eventually be able to learn to live more happily together. Particularly without Berelain around.

Perrin's upbringing is also a real problem. One of the negative consequences of the Two Rivers' general isolation has been that the sexes are so firmly divided. I think that alone has had quite an impact on the main characters and their relationships.

I'll also go so far as to say that I disapprove of RJ's description of the gender differences. I have made my peace with it by thinking that he developed the gender politics as he had so that he could bring humor and conflict into the series. I'd prefer that to thinking he might actually have believed that the differences between the sexes are really that profound.

On the other hand, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" was a bestseller and I've had to end relationships with women (plural) who bought it hook, line and sinker.

Anyway, the gender dynamics of WoT is the thing that I find most unbelievable in the series and is probably the crux of my disliking for various characters.
diane heath
162. jadelollipop
@161 I like Faile, and I like Berelain. I don't like scenes with the both of them together, however.

This is very true. One of my favorite Berelain scenes is the confrontation with Mat in the Stone.
"If I pinch your bottom you can slap my face but until I do I expect a civil word for a civil word" After looking him over she declares "too much like me"
I still say if Faile had not chased her down in Tear and laid claim to Perrin that Berelain would have moved on.

I also think Faile would have slept with the Aiel man who helped her while Perrin would/will never sleep with Berelain. Perrin more forgiving than Faile
Chin Bawambi
163. bawambi
In terms of Berelain - I have always seen her as the Mena Suvari character in American Beauty (pre-revelation of course). So unless you want to view her thru Lews Therin wolf-whistle vision she is useless in my eyes. Her interaction with Faile to become an intentional barb between Perrin/Faile would make her worse than any other light-sider if I met her in RL (and yes that includes Suffa).
Captain Hammer
164. Randalator
toryx @161

I'll also go so far as to say that I disapprove of RJ's description of the gender differences. I have made my peace with it by thinking that he developed the gender politics as he had so that he could bring humor and conflict into the series. I'd prefer that to thinking he might actually have believed that the differences between the sexes are really that profound.

RJ specifically said that WoT gender politics are a direct result of the male Aes Sedai's Breaking of the World and 3,500 years of female dominance in magic. There's an imbalance of power and a severe lack of trust between the genders that led to the third age's status quo...


jadelollipop @162

I also think Faile would have slept with the Aiel man who helped her while Perrin would/will never sleep with Berelain. Perrin more forgiving than Faile

I don't think that those situations can be compared. Faile would have used Rolan as a means to regain her freedom, Perrin on the other hand...what would have been his ulterior motive?
Marcus W
165. toryx
Randalator @ 164:

Re: Gender Politics - Does that include even small villages like in the Two Rivers? Seems kind of overly done, particularly since a lot of the women there were as distrustful of AS as the men, until Moiraine gave her speech.

I agree wholeheartedly about Faile sleeping with Rolan. If she had decided to do it, it'd be a matter of life or death for her. There's no such similar analogy for Perrin and Berelain.
Tess Laird
166. thewindrose
Perrin has brought up enough times to Faile how he knows she is angry and asks what he needs to do to make things better. So, I cannot give her the 'I don't know he can smell my feelings' pass. She is written as an astute character who can read the political currents going on in a room. She is well aware of how enhanced his hearing, eye sight and olfactory senses are. She had cut down on her perfume. An interesting aside - Berelain has also cut down on her use of perfume after the kidnapping.

Perrin on the other hand, doesn't have a good track record dealing with the ladies(despite Rand and Mats thoughts:)). He only starts treating Faile the way she likes after his discussions with Elyas. (And he sure doesn't like treating her in this way - it goes against how he was raised.)

Faile and Berelain each know they are playing a game, which I think points out their age(very young) and this and Perrin's troubles with accepting Saldean ways, is what makes reading this arc so hard for me.

I like Berelain. She has good political acumen, and she shines when in this type of role. Look at how well she did in Cairhien, and also in her dealings with the Aiel and Sea Folk. But then she is taken out of this role and sent on the Ghealdan and Prophet arc. She is bored, Faile is bored and bam, we get the stupid Perrin is a prize game. Look how Berelain pulls herself together after Faile is kidnapped. Yes - she did let everyone think that she and Perrin did something. I bet she thought they would rescue Faile right away and that was why she did it. When the rescue drags on, she starts working with Perrin and stops the stupid game. (I am not giving her or Faile or Perrin a pass on the game - so immature - but again it shows their ages quite well.)

I relate how silly Berelain is acting to how Mat is during the Ebou Dar/Tylin arc. Look how Tuon regards him until he is out on his own - from a buffoon to a lion on the plains.

If you take away someones usefulness, silly things start to happen - human nature?

tempest™
Lucas Vollmer
167. aspeo
Toryx@161
I agree with you about Faile and Berelaine pretty much completely.

thewindrose@166
I like your assessment of Berelaine. It makes some sense to me that she is not doing what she's best at, and so it leads to her looking for something amusing to do. I just wish she hadn't taken such an interest in Perrin though. Even though she obviously seems to be doing it mostly to piss off Faile; you would think even she would get tired of the game after a while and move on to something else.

I can't really think of much else to add other than I agree with what other people have said about the timeline length. It does actually go a lot faster when you have all of the books, and don't have to wait years to move forward a few weeks in the story. It certainly seems to flow a lot better and more consistently to me at least.
Tricia Irish
168. Tektonica
Wind@166:

I also agree with your assessment of the Berelain/Faile/Perrin silliness. What I don't understand is Why does someone want to antagonize/compete with someone like this? I know I've witnessed it in RL, but I still don't understand. Bad self-image? Need to be top dog? In control? Prove something to oneself? Pissing contest? Youth? It just seems so weak and lame, stupid and counter productive.....IMHO.

They're all at fault here, but then it's Communication 101, and they're having trouble with the course.
Noneo Yourbusiness
169. Longtimefan
I know there is plenty more Perrin/Faile/Berelian plot line to hash out but I will one thing here (and probably again at some point.)

As much as Berelain may like Perrin both physically and socially I do not think that she is interested in him as a person. When he is honest and direct about being not interested she does not respect his statement because she needs to play a game with his wife and cannot let her win in such a simple default.

I guess to her it would be like playing tennis and having the ball tell you it does not want to play anymore because it would rather give the game to her opponent and then retire from tennis.

Berelain might be pretty (fictional character but lets go with the descriptions) and she is obviously politically savy but she is young and spend a lot of her interaction time (up to this point) treating Perrin like an object.

I cannot imagine Perrin being better off with Berelain based on her actions towards him from the point where they met to here. Now if he had been born in Far Madding....

Well, she probably would not have been interested. :)
Darth Touma
170. HSonger
The issue with Faile and Perrin stems from Perrin knowing when she is angry with him. In typical Saldaen marriages the husband and wife get into knock-down, drag-out, break-the-pottery and pull-a-knife fights. Perrin doesn't resolve conflicts that way, particularly since he has had to be careful his whole life due to his size and strength. On the rare occasion where Perrin gets so mad that he doesn't care what Faile is feeling and he lets it all out she can understand him and respect him. However, in most cases he is trying to be gentle with her and a good husband (in his mind) so when he smells her anger he dials his back, thinking it will ease the situation when in fact he should let it escalate. Elias has told him this and Perrin has seen/heard it with Faile's parents but it hasn't sunk in yet.
R B
171. MasterAlThor
various,

Berelain's motivations are this simple.

Faile told her "no he is mine."

We all know people who don't like to be told no. I think a few threads ago this was discussed. The crux of it goes like this.

Berelain is used to guys jaws dropping whenever she walks into a room. Perrin goes meh and she is like "wha wha what??? You ain't interested in this??? Well look at you. I've got to have some of that."

Then she finds out that Perrin is with Faile. So she goes all "that girl ain't hot like me. You better take another look at me Perrin." Perrin says no and then Faile goes all "oh no you didn't" complete with the neck roll.

Faile even pulls a knife essentially saying "I'll cut you if you don't leave my man alone." Berelain then jumps on the train to crazytown and we are off.

Go back and read the different reactions to Elayne and Faile's reactions to Berelain's poaching. Who has the better reaction? Who didn't try to chase the woman down and cut her?

I love me some Berelain, but she is just so wrong in this. They all are.

DragonoftheBerelainishotSeptoftheIlikescantilycladwomenAiel
Bill Reamy
172. BillinHI
Not really on the betrayal issue: amw-betrayal @139: I wonder if what Verin saw in her trip through the portal stone worlds influenced the decision she reached by TGS? Knowing what we now know, I would have liked to see her continue in her super-sneaky triple agent role. Of course, the information on the BA was _extremely_ useful when she gave it and I'm sure there are loads more tidbits in her notes.
Rob Munnelly
173. RobMRobM
Re Berelain
1) Not a slut. In the text that she's only been with two or three men.
2) Not bored. This stems from TDR when she swore an Ogier's oath to Faile that she would get Perrin. She also is clear to Perrin that he is sexually attractive to her. Apparently, fate of world and fact that he is now married is less important than her oath and her personal desires. *headdesk*
3) I like her very much as a character but this part of her story drives me over the edge. Her hooking up with Galad can't happen soon enough.

Rob
R B
174. MasterAlThor
I said way back when I first started commenting and came across my very first headdesk moment.

I am investing in Tylenol.

My stock is going through the roof. Thank you Leigh. Thank you Robert Jordan. Thank you all.

GettinpaidDragon
D.I. Rock
175. FeatherDancer
171 MasterAlThor & Various - Berelain

I have always thought Berelain's continued fawning over Perrin was simply to tweak Faile. No other motivation. I think she likes and respects Perrin and she wants to serve Rand. I don't think she likes Faile at all - probably for many of the same reasons I don't. Not the best behavior by Berelain & she certainly doesn't make things comfortable for Perrin but she wanted to see Faile writhe so...
Valentin M
176. ValMar
RobMx2@173 and others

You just beat me to it. Berelain told Perrin that she's been with 3 men, (or 2?) and for political reasons- Perrin will be the first for pleasure.

In some eras or cultures this would make her a right proper slut. I, personally, wasn't born in one of these. But Perrin might be, given the expressed attitudes on such matters in the TR.

As for arranged marriage, Wetlander was as usual very articulate and right, IMO, on what she wrote. But she didn't actually comment on arranged marriage.

I spoke once with some Indians- men and women- on this subject. They were very supportive of the idea- their parrents had arranged very successful marriages for them. Basically the old-er folks had the wisdom to do a good matches for the young pups.
But these folks were upper/middle class, young very busy professionals. Their parrents had no financial issues to factor in the marriage, only if the kids (well over 20 yrs old) will be compatibly happy.
Matchmaking and arranging are very different. Arranged marriage as it exists in the world now is, IMO, a negative, on balance.

Thanks for reading.
Matthew Smith
177. blocksmith
After perusing the comments, I can't offer much on any of the pertinent chapter material that hasn't already been discussed. So I am forced to weigh-in, hopefully succinctly, on the marriage/divorce issue.

Having grown up witnessing multiple divorces (yes, my life from 6 to 18 was a soap opera), I am not a big fan. That said, people make mistakes and some people are better off not-married for more reasons than I can ever cover. Most divorces I have either been a) involved with as a child or b) witnessed as an adult resulted from one or combinations of the following: substance abuse, physical/mental abuse, external (of the marriage) criminal behavior, and infidelity. In these cases, personally, I think divorce is probably the best solution.

Wet@154 and Tek@158- Great points on this. My marriage started when I formally made my intentions known to my girlfriend’s father. He did not think I was the best choice for her and said so, but also said he was willing to get to know me better. I can't blame him, she is his only daughter. Part of the reason for 15 years of happiness started with his commitment to me. Regarding arranged marriages… my only exposure is from a bright young lady I work with who thought it worth never communicating with her family again and fleeing her native home to escape such a situation. Based on only that, I don’t think arranged marriages have a place in modern society.
Sam Mickel
178. Samadai
RE: The whiners;

Perrin and Faile and the kidnapping arc take up a whopping 29 out of 182 chapters of 5 books. The plot is over get over it.

Elayne and the Bowl of Winds takes up 19 of 96 chapters across 2 books. It's long over with, and wasnt't that long of the story.

Elayne and the succession takes 28 of 182 chapters across 5 books and it also is done with.

Those are all small numbers across these length of books and obviously are not plots that never die since they are dead now.

I have had to wait for all the books since the Great Hunt and the only one I didn't Love at first was the Crossroads of Twilight, because nothing was resolved. But read together with KoD's and WH I love the whole piece. I never thought the WoT was bloated, if anything it needs more.
These are only my opinions of course and you can flame away if you like, but the facts are these plots take up almost no time across the span of the few books that they are in.
Marcus W
179. toryx
Longtimefan @ 169:

I cannot imagine Perrin being better off with Berelain based on her actions towards him from the point where they met to here.

I agree. I don't think She really wants Perrin, per se. She just wants what she can't have. That's a common enough attitude, especially amongst those who are used to getting what they want.

In my whole life, I've never been so often approached by women as when I'm wearing a ring on my left hand. It's crazy, but there you go.

I also agree with RobM @ 173 that Berelain's not a slut. Of course, I'm well aware that to some people (even on this forum) a woman having sex with more than one person (especially unmarried) is one by definition. But she's not one by my definition.

ValMar @ 176: Wetlandernw did mention arranged marriages, she just didn't go into it in much detail.

As far as it goes, the feedback for any kind of system for marriage depends entirely on the individual's notion of what marriage is. Most people see marriage as a system of co-dependence for the purpose of raising children. Some people consider children to have nothing to do with marriage. Others believe that there's no such thing as co-dependence in marriage; the dependence is entirely one-sided (that of the wife depending on the husband).

People who are raised in a culture of arranged marriages are raised in a particular view of marriage. Often love and affection are not as highly valued as stability, firmly established responsibilities in a family unit, and procreation. Since they go into a marriage with those as the primary values, naturally they're going to consider their marriages successful when those values are achieved.

Western views of marriage, particularly in the US, place higher value on love and affection. But even that varies considerably depending on the region, class level and especially religious views. People who do not include religion in their marriage have very different views on marriage than those who do. Heck, I bet there are a few people here who would argue that marriage cannot exist without religion.

RJ illustrates these kinds of differences pretty well in the series. Which is probably exactly why this discussion came up in the first place. I don't think he brings quite as many varieties in viewpoints as one can commonly find in reality, however. They tend to be pretty similar with only a few differences moving to the forefront.

Ultimately when it comes to marriage. as with practically everything else, YMMV.
Captain Hammer
180. Randalator
toryx @165

Does that include even small villages like in the Two Rivers? Seems kind of overly done, particularly since a lot of the women there were as distrustful of AS as the men, until Moiraine gave her speech.

Even in Duopotamia it is known that it was "male arrogance" that brought about the end of the AoL. And it also common knowledge that every male channeler is doomed to madness and every male could potentially be one of them. Let these two facts fester for 3,500 years and you'll end up in 1000 NE Randland.

Btw. Aes Sedai are generally mistrusted because of their sneakyness. But that is a relatively small group and not directed at a whole gender. Also it has nothing to do with Power in itself and is more fear of the unknown and mistrust by association (men destroying the world with the One Power).


thewindrose @166

I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion of Berelain. Only one small correction:

Yes - she did let everyone think that she and Perrin did something. I bet she thought they would rescue Faile right away and that was why she did it.

No, she offered Perrin a truce right after Faile was kidnapped.

Perrin, I know you are hurting. There are things you might want to say that you can't to another man. I can't see you crying on Lini's shoulder, so I offer mine. We can call a truce until Faile is found."

"A truce?" he said, carefully bending to tug on a boot. Carefully so he did not fall over. Stout wool stockings and thick leather soles would have his feet warm soon enough. "Why do we need a truce?" She was silent while he donned the other boot and folded the turndowns below his knees, not speaking until he had done up the laces of his shirt and was stuffing it into his breeches.

"Very well, Perrin. If that is how you want it." Whatever that was supposed to mean, she sounded very determined. Suddenly he wondered whether his nose had failed him. Her scent was affronted, of all things!
(WH, ch. 5)

Perrin carries the idiot ball and pisses her off quite thoroughly. That makes her go the whole nine yards with that...thing. A simple "Thank you" would have sufficed, but nooooooooooo. Stupid blacksmith...
Darth Touma
181. Gentleman Farmer
@178 Samadai

Thanks for that. I love the books as well, and sometimes it's easier to get bogged down in minutia about what I don't like than remembering how much I love the whole series.

It's one of the main reasons I like visiting this forum actually... no matter how down on a particular character or plotline I may have been, I get to read perspectives from people who see something of value and are able to impart their enthusiasm to me.

I particularly like your support of CoT above, and I agree I was mildly annoyed with it on my first read, and I think on my first re-read, but most recently, reading it as one of a piece with WH and KoD I found all kinds of neat stuff there.
Barry T
182. blindillusion
Not really much to add. But I do agree with Saggybella that Mat’s “betrayal” dealt with telling someone about Rand’s ability to channel before it became a known.

As for Perrin betraying Rand…well, there were times when I thought Perrin was going to betray the Light as a whole (not really Rand in particular). Namely because of the blurb to one of the books…I think it was KoD, but I’m not sure…and I cannot check because I don’t have my books with me.

As for marriage, along with the Philippines being mentioned…my wife is from the Philippines. Needless to say, we’re two-and-a-half years into our marriage and we’re continuously finding elements of our upbringings that either diverge completely from each other or crash headlong into one another. Love going to the Philippines. My wife’s family doesn’t even mind that I like to help around the house.

And just because it’s something to say, my wife’s name before we married was Maricel A. Lungcay. When we got married she dropped her middle name (which was her mother’s Maiden name), moved her last name to her middle name and took my last name. So, her name is now Maricel Lungcay T.

And now, our daughter’s name is Patrisha Karin Lungcay T. Should she choose to follow the tradition her mother followed, upon marriage she could change her name to Patrisha Karin T. . Don’t know if she will, but it’s her choice. And yes, our daughter’s first name is Patrisha Karin, just as our son’s first name is Brendan Dominic…and just for S&Gs…Brendan Dominic translates to “Prince of the Lord”…which I find amusing because…well, just because.

- Oh, I’ve always liked Faile.

~ Sam. Nicely said. Though the next few books did cause me to lose my passion for the series, I’d also have to say graduating high school, going to college, going to university and joining the military had quite a bit to do with it as well.
Marcus W
183. toryx
Samadai @ 178:

I'm sure as heck not going to flame you for your opinion. But I have to admit, I don't know why you had to open your post addressed to "The whiners." That's the kind of thing I'd expect of someone who wants to be flamed. Name calling is never productive.

As it happens, I would have agreed with you more during the first reads. Even though I did have to wait for every single book to get published, I was always glad for the next one even if they didn't hold up to their promise. After a while I stopped buying them on publication day, but I still looked forward to reading them.

However, these plots bother me more when I do rereads than they did the first time. It's through re-reading them that they seem to go on forever. The kidnapping arc and the Elayne chapters following the Bowl of the Winds arc bore me so much on reread that I don't want to do rereads at all anymore.

Randalator @ 180:

Hmmm. I have a hard time believing that this kind of divisiveness would continue for 3000 years. But that's fine, it is what it is.
Valentin M
184. ValMar
Blocksmith@177
Re the last few sentences. Cases like this are unfortunately frequent here in the UK. They certainly influence my opinion on arranged/forced marriage.

Samadai@178
Very well put and I agree. Thanks for stating it! Actually Perrin/Faile ark up until the kidnap was enjoyable (any aggravation was due to the WO/AS mainly). And after it was still good, as long as one skipped the shaido chapters. But yes, whiners is a bit stronger than necessary.

toryx@179
Again, good analysis of the issue. But I believe that the issues of success/failure of marriage and "arranged marriage" should be divorced (not sure if the pun was/wasn't intended). Nothing is worth what the (usually) women/girls go through in many cases.
And I know that Wet mentioned it. Just didn't go into it. Maybe a good decision.I think this issue is way too off-topic for the discussion it deserves.

PS Romans were rather contemtious to those who married just for love, IIRC.
Captain Hammer
185. Randalator
toryx @183

Well, I guess people will bear a grudge if you cause the end of the world.

Also it's not like the division wasn't continually reinforced by the presence of the One Power in public consciousness and the odd rogue male channeler every now and then...
R B
186. MasterAlThor
Sam,

Calm down my friend. It is ok. I like complaining about these books. I know that it's a bad way to look at it, but it's a guilty pleasure.

I got your message too. Thanks brother.

Marriage/Divorce,

Marriage is not for everyone. Not everyone is cut out for marriage. I say figure that out before you get married.

Divorce is bad and should only be used as a last resort. It has been said that abuse (drugs or otherwise), infidelity, and/or criminal behavior are good reasons for divorce.

What happened to better or worse?

Do I condone physical abuse against a spouse? No. Again divorce should only be used as a last resort.

If you believe in Jesus then you are expected to stay in that relationship and let God do His work.

The point for me is this. When you say your vows you say them before God. If you got married your vows most likely contained some mention of God. And if He is not at the center of your relationship with your spouse, then your marriage may not work out the way you wanted.

There are always exceptions. If you are one of them great. But more often than not, your marriage will fail.

This is my belief. Not all share it, that's ok.
Sam Mickel
187. Samadai
To all:
My apologies for the whiners remark. I have let all the negative comments about these plots affect me and I should not have.
R B
188. MasterAlThor
toryx,

In my whole life, I've never been so often approached by women as when I'm wearing a ring on my left hand. It's crazy, but there you go.


You too?

I can't believe it. Why would they do this? I mean I like Berelain's character. But that is fiction. In real life, I wouldn't go anywhere near her being married.

Who else does this happen to? Guys let us know.

QuestioningDragon
Eric Hughes
190. CireNaes
alreadymadwithbetrayal@139

Yes, physical touch/presence is a big element of building commitment and showing love, but I was speaking in the context of marriage (or exclusive relationships as a nod to people who don't hold my values, but I still want to teach good relationship skills to) wherein the two parties would naturally be living together for a good portion of every year.

As far as marriage systems, I think Wetlandernw@154 and toryx@179 have both made some keen observations.

Each method can exhibit great potential for abuse. By holding one over the other you don't change that. Different kinds of abuse are more prevalent in each system as is to be expected. Some types of abuse are standard across the board due to mankind's propensity for selfish behavior (a lack of Gemeinschaftsgefühl).

I'm all for a combined approach. The key is when you engage your heart you don't disengage your head. A skill most do not possess in Western culture. That's where respected and or authoritative types come into play. They are ideally teaching those head and heart skills to their young wards, but sadly most do not, which is one of the reasons I have the job that I do. Other cultures have the opposite problem that can be related to different desires and expectations of marriage as an institution or a low view of women and children almost always connected to a might makes right mentality that is typically garbed in various disguises such as religious and or political values.

The biggest flaw in any relationship is unexpressed and unmet expectations. Sound familiar? Perrin and Faile are a prime example. So the equation is R > E then R = D. The letters are fairly easy to guess. R is reality, D is disappointment and E is expectations. Common expectations come from ones personality, parents, family, media, past relationships, friends, religious beliefs, culture, and political systems. Sub categories include men and womens roles, time together, money, birth control, and core values. A successful marriage is sustained by commitment and love that is built on physical, emotional, verbal, commitment (not threatening the relationship itself), and community safety (don't hang out with people who undermine your marriage). More immediate helpers are to decide to change conflict patterns rather than sliding back into bad habits and both parties willing to do their part. Well I've said enough and probably bored quite a few people out of their minds. Perrin and Faile's odds aren't too great based on this model.

Edit: for grammar.
Skip Ives
191. Skip
For what it is worth:

Berelain: She plays her game because it tweeks Faile, but also because she is a small ruler dealing with a general of the Dragon Reborn. She has been schooled her whole life to play on these situations. Her gambit with Perrin after Faile is kidnapped is to give her power in a situation where she is relatively powerless. To her credit, she stops as soon as she sees Perrin start to lose it. She actually becomes a teacher and adviser to Perrin. So in the end she got her goal without needing to use her body.

The Andoran reaction to her is part of their general prudishness compared to the rest of Randland. I really don’t begrudge her at all.

Perrin: Everyone seems to give the poor broken emo-boy a pass compared to Faile. If he bothered trying to learn about his wife, he’d have figured it out or been told about the crazy culture he married into. He is as much at fault for assuming Faile would think like a Two Rivers girl as Faile is for expecting him to act like a crazy Saldean.

Faile: Is young and not nearly as clever as she believes. But she loves Perrin and is doing what she believes is the right thing. It isn’t, but she doesn’t know that.

Morgase’s age: The most likely answer IMO, is that she doesn’t look like a person of her age and station. Sure she could have slowed, but she also didn’t do manual labor for the last 30 years. The wear and tear that the sun, water and heavy loads do to the body make a big difference to how someone looks. Add a good diet and channeling, and of course she looks younger.

As for Talivor, his age is an excuse, as has been pointed out.

So in summary, I’m in the “don’t hate the characters, hate the storyline and the wait you had to get to the good parts” camp.
Noneo Yourbusiness
192. Longtimefan
I would say something about marriage, arranged or otherwise, but I am not allowed to get married so the point is moot.

I have known a number of people who have gotten married because it was considered socially acceptable who later realized it was not really where they should be.

In this limited case I totally agree with MasterAlThor when he says marriage is not for everyone and they should figure that out before hand not after.

Knowing oneself is never easy, however.
Alice Arneson
193. Wetlandernw
MasterAlThor @159 - Yes, I could have said much more, but there are some great books out there that say it much better. :) Mostly I felt that someone ought to have the courage to go on record as saying that divorce shouldn't need to be a good thing. More particularly, and if people were more willing to make a real commitment based on careful decision-making, divorce would be largely unnecessary. And yes, there's a lot more I could add to that, but... this isn't really the place, I guess.

MasterAlThor @159 - In Winter's Heart, Berelain tells Perrin "you will be only the third man to share my bed." Make of it what you will.

jadelollipop @162 - "I still say if Faile had not chased her down in Tear and laid claim to Perrin that Berelain would have moved on." Quite possibly. Does that make it okay for her to make Perrin's marriage and life miserable by continually pursuing and trying to seduce him? Particularly when he's made it clear that he loves his wife and intends to remain faithful to her?

bawambi @163 - I agree.

thewindrose @166 - Berelain was deliberately pursuing Perrin before they ever left Cairhien. Ever since that first bit in Tear, when Rand scared the living daylights out of her and she decided that one of his friends would be safer, and it had to be Perrin because Mat was too much like her, she's pursued him every chance she got up until a few days after Faile is taken by the Shaido. For all her "political acumen," she's been acting very childishly, which doesn't speak very well of someone who has been ruling a nation since she was 16 years old. I'm sorry, but I don't see how boredom gives her a pass to be irresponsible. And I really think it's pretty irresponsible to be playing head games with a guy who's on a fairly significant mission for Team Light, when the Last Battle is coming soon.

Aaand... we've heard too much of all sides of this thing, so I'll leave it there.
Rob Munnelly
194. RobMRobM
@193. It's that darned Ogier's oath she swore to Faile in Tear. Seems to be more important than anything else. Argh! *thunk*
Tricia Irish
195. Tektonica
Guys: I think some women are attracted to married men because they are "safe", ie: NOT available for commitment...no entanglements. The women have a fear of commitment, so a married man is, by definition, not going to ask for one.

Just my observation.....I never ever dated a married man.....women's solidarity and all. I was just amazed at the women who did, and one finally explained to me about commitment fear.

Hi Sam. **waves** Sorry about the whining, but hey, no one's going to like 'em all, you know. This plot just bores me stiff. Sorry. ;-))
James Jones
196. jamesedjones
193 Wetlandernw
In Winter's Heart, Berelain tells Perrin "you will be only the third man to share my bed." Make of it what you will.
I'm either impressed that she's working the Queen Elizabeth angle... or I'm impressed that they do so much on those oilfish boats. :P
Rob Munnelly
197. RobMRobM
@196. Nothing there about hammocks or cots either, LOL. Or women for that matter....
Ron Garrison
198. Man-0-Manetheran
Having a hard time reconciling in my mind Queen Elizabeth and sex... I keep coming up with the Monty Python line, "I don't understand. We had sex once and have one child."
Hugh Arai
199. HArai
Skip@191:

Perrin: Everyone seems to give the poor broken emo-boy a pass compared to Faile. If he bothered trying to learn about his wife, he’d have figured it out or been told about the crazy culture he married into. He is as much at fault for assuming Faile would think like a Two Rivers girl as Faile is for expecting him to act like a crazy Saldean.
Who was he supposed to ask about "crazy Saldeans"? Her parents? There's a fun conversation. Not likely to happen. His first real shot at figuring her out comes with Elyas as far as I can tell, and he takes it. Faile has a lot more chances to notice that "hey all these other couples don't smack each other all the time". As far as Faile herself explaining - well I've run across a (fairly immature but honestly felt) school of thought that "it doesn't mean as much or isn't as real if you have to explain it."
That's all I can think of.

Berelain's behavior I don't understand unless as others have noted her "ogier's oath" overrides everything up to and including the end of the world. I can't really agree with those who say she likes and respects Perrin. If you like and respect someone you stop when they say "stop ruining my marriage". I also can't really understand why she thought Perrin would accept her "truce". "I know I've been actively screwing your marriage, but if you need a shoulder to cry on while Faile's gone, I'm here". Doesn't make any more sense to me than it apparently did to Perrin. Does anyone have any ideas why she thought it would work?

RobMRobM@197: Well if we're going to be cynical, it doesn't say anything about other people's beds either.
Ron Garrison
200. Man-0-Manetheran
Well, HArai, only because you asked... The only thing I can think of why Berelain does what she does is that she came to the throne at age 16. Flirting was all she knew, and it worked for her. So, she has stuck with this 16-year-old's mindset. Naaa. Lame. I have no clue why she can't take a hint as big as a two-by-four.

200 FTW!
Hugh Arai
201. HArai
Man-o-manetheran@200:

Current Looney theory: Perrin's ta'veren signal of Competent Soldier/Leader of Men has an undertone of "make my life miserable" that only single noblewomen can hear. If Morgase and Alliandre start hitting on him we'll know I'm right...
Theresa Gray
202. Terez27
Like RJ said, Berelain is the ruler of a weak nation that is always being threatened by Tear. She uses her beauty as a political weapon, and she can hardly be blamed for that.

That being said, her actions with Perrin only have one purpose: to get under Faile's skin, as a payback for the incident in the Stone. That's why she backed off when Faile was kidnapped, other than the tent episode which she knew would cause rumors that would pay off upon Faile's return.

One last thing: the word 'slut' is inherently sexist, and I personally find the usage of it to be highly offensive. No one's calling Mat a slut, are they? But he totally fits the definition of the word.
Sam Mickel
203. Samadai
Terez27,

You are right about the word "slut", but many people here have characterized Mat as one also.
Hugh Arai
204. HArai
Terez27@202: Actually I seem to recall people in various threads calling Mat just that. I don't really think it fits either of them, but that's just my opinion.

But again since apparently all she cares about is irritating Faile without any regard to Perrin's feelings, where does she get the gall to offer a "truce"? Or was that just another ploy?

ETA: I really am trying to figure out motivation here. People keep saying young and immature but while I've certainly been both of those, I've never had a mindset close to this one.
Jay Dauro
205. J.Dauro
Skip@191:

Perrin: Everyone seems to give the poor broken emo-boy a pass compared to Faile. If he bothered trying to learn about his wife, he’d have figured it out or been told about the crazy culture he married into. He is as much at fault for assuming Faile would think like a Two Rivers girl as Faile is for expecting him to act like a crazy Saldean.


The problem is that Perrin grew up in an isolated small village, with little or no contact with other cultures. He has had a bit of a crash course in them now, but still does not realize that different cultures can have radically different interactions between the sexes. Faile grew up as the daughter of a lord, with much more education about other cultures. Neither of them should get a pass on this, but Faile should realize and understand what is happening more.

That being said, I would still expect her to have trouble not reacting as she does. As has been said, it is very hard to override your early conditioning.
craig thrift
206. gagecreedlives
HArai@204

I think the term slut fits with a premarried Mat but I'd think he would be more than happy to try and live it up and then try and live it down.
Sharon E.
207. Sulin
Sub@151- "Reminds me of the guy talk..."etc... LOL! You nailed it!

wetlander@154- Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. I'll stand by you and help deflect all the verbal rotten tomatoes. ;)
John Massey
208. subwoofer
Whew!

We've been having some fun here. Heh.

Marriage- gonna go with M A T on this one. You take your vows before God. Take that seriously. I see people rushing headlong into marriage without really thinking about compatibility and real world stuff- just thinking- "we are in lust- that will conquer all". Not so much. And people are divorcing like champions because they find that marriage is not easy, it is not a "geeze, I have someone, I can coast from here on in". Wrong. Marriage is work every day. You get out what you put into it. And if you love your spouse- it is not work because you actually put their needs before your own. But that's just me.

Berelain- love her. I should, I married a Berelain. She turned out to be loyal once she landed me, but my wife did have to overcome my natural denseness and ignorance- which I think Perrin suffers from in matters of the heart. Some women like a challenge.

Women and rings. Well, two things, as I have said before, some women like a challenge, others find that it is safe to flirt with married men because then it is just flirting and it will never get anywhere. Things can only go so far then no more. AND THEY KNOW IT, AND COUNT ON IT. Edited because I was wrong- but here ya go.

As for intentions going into marriage, well, I'd like to say that we are in the 2000s folks. Women make just as much coin as men. I do well myself, but I work like a heathen. My wife has the mother of all cake jobs and I am rooting for her. A couple of more raises and I can retire. Go wifey!


Woof™.
John Massey
209. subwoofer
@207Sulin-

nailed it? I live it. Daily.

I know I am making some generalizations, but guys are pretty simple and straight forward. We tell you what is on our minds. Simple math.

Ladies are like math logic. There is a lot of reading between the lines. And woe unto you if you take things at face value. Sometimes 1+1?2.

Woof™.
Sharon E.
210. Sulin
@Sub(209)- Heh. Math Logic. Too bloody right! I live it too, but my poor husband is a Perrin. He still hasn't figured it out.
diane heath
211. jadelollipop
Wetlandr @193 No it does not excuse Berelain. I don't like the triangle plot but I do like the character(s).
It is true Perrin should take responsibility re: his marriage but I guess that is a small spot in his plotline. In the beginning Perrin was quicker to accept connection to Rand (commented to self that Mat had not done so) and the responsibility entailed yet he has run from his leadership of his army, those he has collected and Faile.
Mat on the other hand, complains but does get the job done. It is one reason,imo,that Perrin's popularity fell.

ETA: It was mentioned that the kidnap plotline (which is actually the next book or 2 over since Faile is kidnapped at end of this one) is 29 chapters compared to the 28 chapters of the Andoran Succession plotline. Yet as I stated before the Andoran line seems shorter on the re read. Maybe the 29 chapters will go faster this time
Sandy Brewer
212. ShaggyBella
200. Man-0-Manetheran
..... The only thing I can think of why Berelain does what she does is that she came to the throne at age 16. Flirting was all she knew, and it worked for her. So, she has stuck with this 16-year-old's mindset. ...


This sounds a lot like Sevanna. She marries Clan chiefs for power. She chases after the Car'a'carn, even though she can't have him. Also she and Berelain have a similar style of dress.
Tony Zbaraschuk
213. tonyz
Yes, but Berelain has a working brain and a sense of responsibility. I'm not sure what Sevanna has, nor why the Shaido Wise Ones agree to go along with her.
craig thrift
214. gagecreedlives
Sevanna had the ovaries to declare that the Wise Ones have nothing to teach her nor would she take orders from them. Thats apparently all it takes.

My bosses were less than impressed however when I tried the aiel way of promotion.
Alice Arneson
215. Wetlandernw
Hmmm. So the Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on strength in the OP; Kin hierarchy is based on age; Windfinder hierarchy is based on what Sailmistress you got stuck with; Wise Ones hierarchy is based on being an insubordinate know-it-all.
Darth Touma
216. CFP
Regarding why Berelain does what she does, plays the game she plays, acts so to Perrin... part of me figured that, in a way, she may not really have as much of a choice as we think she does. (By "we", I mostly mean "I".)

I don't mean so much that her learning or culture or class or oath to Faile force her to act against her will, not at all. But Perrin is ta'veren, and I've imagined Berelain's thread caught up in his Pattern-whirlpool nearly as much as Faile's, evidenced by Min's viewing (when interpreting Min's viewing as a glimpse of the Pattern). Whereas Rand has three women tangled into his future, and it's just so happened that the three like each other and Rand returns their affections, Perrin's not so lucky, if that's the right word for it.

*If* Berelain loved Perrin like Faile does, *if* Perrin returned those feelings, and *if* Berelain and Faile got along vastly better than they do(n't) now, and *if* even one of the three belonged to a culture that would somehow allow that triangle to exist, then just maybe we'd have seen their story evolve differently. But, none of those conditions is the case, in fact. Perrin and Faile are a loving (just go with it) couple, and they want it as just the two of them. Where does Berelain's thread fit into that knot? Well, it clearly doesn't. Though, she was conveniently placed to advise and counsel while Faile was out of the picture, and I don't think that was her only saving grace as a character.

I acknowledge that "Destiny" may just be me grasping for reasons to overlook unsavory behavior from a character that I otherwise like (I like all three characters tbh), but for as long as I've read that ta'veren has been known to make people behave in ways they never would otherwise, I haven't found it a stretch to think of a ta'veren causing people to act as they probably or even maybe would otherwise, over long periods of time, too.
craig thrift
217. gagecreedlives
Wetlandernw

When you phrase it that way its surprising that there isnt a whole bunch of 15 year olds running the aiel.

I know I certainly would of qualified as a wise one.
Alice Arneson
218. Wetlandernw
gagecreedlives - Based on that definition, I certainly would have qualified better as a wise one when I was 18 than I would now! :)
Hugh Arai
219. HArai
Wetlandernw@215: Wise One membership is based on being an insubordinate know-it-all. Wise One rank is based on honor earned by wisdom,actions, and experience. So you might have been faster to declare yourself at 18, but you'd likely get more respect now :)

With respect to Sevanna, we have an explanation of how she got to be a Wise One, but in my opinion we still don't have a good reason why the other Shaido Wise Ones did what she said.
Darth Touma
220. Jonathan Levy
Randalator @117
Tonka @110

Re: Mat's betrayal

Here's my opinion on this betrayal. It's not a forshadowing of a future betrayal by Mat. It's a subtle hint towards the forshadowing of Ingtar's betrayal.

Let me explain.

When they arrive at the Portal Stone, Ingtar says "I walk in the light!". This foreshadows the revelation of Ingtar's treachery. However, it's too subtle for the author. We might miss it. So what does Jordan do? He could have Rand think "Ingtar must have turned Darkfriend, otherwise he wouldn't deny it so fiercely", but that would be too obvious. So he has Mat make a parallel statement ("I wouldn't betray you!"), and Rand thinks about MAT, not Ingtar "He must have betrayed me, otherwise he wouldn't deny it so fiercely".

This is a very subtle hint on Jordan's part, pointing us towards Ingtar's darkfriendednessness. It also fits with Mat's character, and with one of the underlying themes of TGH - Rand's fear of people learning about him.
Captain Hammer
221. Randalator
Jonathan Levy @220

Here's my opinion on this betrayal. It's not a forshadowing of a future betrayal by Mat. It's a subtle hint towards the forshadowing of Ingtar's betrayal.

If anything, it's both. You can't have Ingtar's denial be proof of a real betrayal without the same being true for Mat's denial.

As a matter of fact, the revelation of Ingtar as a darkfriend only furthers the point that there is more to Mat's portal stone episode.
Rob Munnelly
222. RobMRobM
Misc points

- interesting post a dragonmount by one of the moderators (Luckers) explaining in excrutiating detail why the AS in Randland are such a massive fail, at least pre-Egwene being in charge. You can find it by looking at dragonmount twitter feed, where the post is referenced and linked.
- Despite my Ogier oath comments, I don't believe Berelain's actions are entirely about one upping Faile (even though that's a big part of it). I think she's immensely attracted to Perrin - almost has to be, to fulfill the prophecy that the hawk and falcon are fighting over him rather than fighting each other around him.
- Shaggy@212 and tony@213. Really interesting comments. Berelain just like Sevanna but lots more competent at it. Hmmm.
- @209-10 and many earlier posts. I haven't said this earlier but Perrin-Faile Mars-Venus issues strike close to home for me. I have a lot of Perrin-like qualities and my wife has lots of Faile-like qualities and we've had to work those out in our 20-plus years of marriage. I'm a live and let live kind of guy and my spouse never forgets a slight to her family or herself and has highly trained instincts to use every verbal and nonverbal trick at her command on the "guilty" parties. Thank goodness I'm the target only some of the time and I know how to defend myself (my father, who is kindhearted but has been ticking both my wife and myself off lately through blatant favoritism among his grandkids, not so much). 1 + 1 does not necessarily equal 2 indeed.
- @199 - in that respect, recall that Berelain didn't try to seduce Rand in her own bed either, did she???
- Sam - re the whiners remark, no problem here but the issue is that several of these long multi-book threads that didn't move quickly all occurred in the same three books - PoD, WH, CoT. Having them overlap each other exacerbated the "fun" of reading each of them. Again, I actually like the Andoran succession plot line - problem there is that everyone involved was testy and it bacame too much (Nyn, Birgitte, Dyelin, Kin, Windfinders). Kidnapping plot is fine but drags on over too many books without plot advancement. I like the Mat-Tuon circus trip as well but it also loses steam because of the other overlapping long plots.

Rob

*twitch*
Darth Touma
223. Jonathan Levy
Randalator @221

"If anything, it's both. You can't have Ingtar's denial be proof of a real betrayal without the same being true for Mat's denial."

I think this statement is far too strong. This is not a mathematical theorem. It's not as if we've proven for all X that "if X denies, therefore X will betray", and now we're insisting on using this theorem on X = Ingtar but not on X = Mat. Ingtar redeemed himself, Mat didn't spill the beans on Rand, and Rand hasn't lost again, Lews Therin.

Keep in mind that Mat is talking about a very specific betrayal, namely, telling people that Rand can channel. He is quite clear on this. He says "Rand, I’d never tell anyone about—about you. I wouldn’t betray you. You have to believe that!". This is not quite "Oh-I-might-turn-to-the-dark-side-in-book-13". Mat probably saw himself blabbing without thinking, like he did in Baerlon (I think) in TEOTW, and getting Rand gentled.


I think Jordan put this in to point us in the direction of Ingtar, and did not anticipate that some fans would read so much into it, and think that Ingtar is supposed to point us in the direction of Mat.
Tricia Irish
224. Tektonica
jadelollipop@210 and others:

Re: Perrin...I just reread the Chapter 33 in the SR where Perrin goes back to the Two Rivers, confronts the locals about their dependence on Whitecloak "protection" from trollacs (that Fain brought), gets them to all go to Emond's Field, and then goes and rescues the Luhans and the Cauthans from the Whities.

He was AWESOME! He had good ideas, was a strong leader, concerned for others (besides Faile), and didn't depend on his nose nearly as much. He spoke forcefully, sometimes without "thinking" about things for hours. He didn't moon-emo around, even after finding out about his family's murder. He had a good cry and took action. He was puzzled about some Faile's actions and motivations, but wasn't obsessed with her. He had bigger fish to fry. (Next up: Battle of Emond's Field, yeehaw...more awesome.)

It was such a revelation to remember him this way, as he seems so very different in these later books. He seems "suppressed" and distracted.

Check out Ch. 33 in the Shadow Rising for a view of the "old Perrin", who we may get to see again in ToM. After Faile's return, maybe he can stop being obsessed with her. Perhaps the dynamic between them will relax and Perrin can get back to helping to save the world.
Marcus W
225. toryx
Skip @ 191:

He is as much at fault for assuming Faile would think like a Two Rivers girl as Faile is for expecting him to act like a crazy Saldean.

Actually, I agree. I think Perrin's as messed up by his upbringing as Faile is by hers. The problem is, neither cultures have much actual communication between the sexes. In both cases, men and women are always playing that game that keeps them from actually talking to each other all that much.

This is part of the reason Faile doesn't bother me the way she does others. In my opinion, she and Perrin are actually very similar in that both of them expect the other to act according to their experience, and neither one of them are willing to sit down and explain what that means. For that matter, neither are all that interested in making the kinds of changes in their personalities that would make things easier, though Perrin at least makes a little effort after meeting Elyas.

Terez27 @ 202:

I'm not particularly fond of the word slut either. Not so much because I find the word offensive; I take offense when people castigate those who like to have sex. I also really hate the way a guy is admired for having a lot of partners while a woman gets ostracized for having sex with more than one person. That offends the hell out of me.

Having said that, I agree with the others who say that Mat is often teased and mocked for being a slut, both here and offline. So I don't think it's as one sided in WoT discussions as you're think.

subwoofer @ 208:
Marriage is work every day. You get out what you put into it. And if you love your spouse- it is not work because you actually put their needs before your own.

Funny you should say that. I always used to find relationships very hard work, and I told myself it was like that because it's supposed to be...that's how you measure the value of something. Then I finally met the right woman for me and suddenly it's been so easy that at first I kept trying to figure out what was wrong with the relationship. So I was all prepared to argue with you when you say marriage is work every day, because for me it isn't. It seems as natural as breathing. Then you quelled any argument I might have with the following sentence.

I do think it's weird that so many people get in trouble with their spouses for spending so much time here, though.

CFP @ 216: I like your point about Perrin being Taveren. I think you've got a strong argument there.
R B
226. MasterAlThor
I find myself in agreement with Sub.

Women are a math logic. My wife tries hard not be like that and somtimes she fails spectacularly. Those are fun days.

I knew this about her before I married her and married her anyway. So I have no one to complain to but myself.

Wetlander is right, divorce wouldn't be necessary if people thought about what they were doing befoe they got married.

Also it would help if people adopted the attitude that divorce is not an option. My wife knew that when we got married that divorce was not an option for me and it needed to be that way for her.

Shoryuken
R B
227. MasterAlThor
One more funny thing about my wife.

Can you math logic wizards please explain why the rules change when we(men) play by your(women) rules?

I mean if I treat you bad and you get upset, then shouldn't the reverse be true also?

Why is it my fault if you treat me bad?
Why is it ok for you to do whatever but when I call you on it, it's not the same thing at all?


Shoryuken
John Massey
228. subwoofer
PSSSST!!!! M A T-::Waves hands wildly:: Don't go down that road! It can only lead to destruction and kittens will get hurt. Sometimes things are the way they are. No explanation. Just go with it and be glad to be married. No one said life is fair. Until you master the power of the almighty tear- crying at the drop of a hat- be humble, it is a terrible weapon.



Woof™.
Tricia Irish
229. Tektonica
As toryx@225 says, The problem is, neither cultures have much actual communication between the sexes. In both cases, men and women are always playing that "game" that keeps them from actually talking to each other all that much.

It seems to me that game is what you're talking about in your own marriage, MAT and others, with the math logic thing. ;-)

Just talk, be honest. Care about each other. If you are thinking of the Other's happiness/well being, there is no conflict. Assume that you each have each other's well being in mind and then it's not a game, it's pulling together on the same team. It's not a contest. Hopefully, you have the same goals in mind. (Or you shouldn't have gotten married in the first place!)

I'm just sayin......*wink wink*...
diane heath
230. jadelollipop
Tek @224 The awesomeness of Perrin in TSR is one reason (imo) that the prolonged "agony" of the triangle and the wandering around looking for Masema not to mention the Shaido/kidnapping is so pronounced.
I too hope that TOM will see a return to Perrin as seen in TR. Esp if Galad can remove Berelain and we have 2 couples (:0)
James Hogan
231. Sonofthunder
I'm not married, so most likely my words carry no weight on this subject, but a prime criterion in a relationship with a wife is ease of communication. If I have trouble communicating with a girl now, my interest in her rapidly decreases. This may sound harsh, but I'm not willing to go into a relationship where I know I'll have trouble communicating and relating! If I can't share myself and take part in her...I don't want to go any further. I want to be able to say..."Heart of my heart."

And as my roommate said recently(a month after getting married), "It's pretty awesome. But a lot harder than I expected." I'm guessing some of you would echo that comment...

And to not be TOTALLY off-topic, it just makes me sad that Perrin and Faile are having such trouble because of their trouble relating to each other and lack of communication. If they love each other now, think of how much more they'd love each other with some proper talking and openess!!
Thomas Keith
232. insectoid
Been sitting on the sidelines, watching the Berelain/Perrin/Faile debates fly. (I get up too early nowadays.)

Wishing for a new post soon... *twitch*

Bzzz™.
Barry T
233. blindillusion
Jade -

I hope we get the scene where Berelain's jaw drops...

...and then notices the White uniform and shudders....

=}
Thomas Keith
234. insectoid
Blind @233: ...and then Galad teaches her what is right. :]

Bzzz™.
Jennifer B
235. JennB
Just a quick comment on marriage...

I understand that some posters here are very religious and their religion is very integral to their marriage. I do not have a problem with that.

That said, I do not understand why so many have made statements generalizing that all marriages need to have a religious element to be successful.

My husband and I have a very successful marriage. We communicate very well. We have been in a relationship for 16 1/2 years, married for 9 of those. (We started dating in 9th grade and it was important to both of us that we both had graduated from college before marriage.) I have never considered our marriage to be work.

Religion has never played a part in our marriage.

Edited to change a number. I double counted the year we got married and counted this year as 1 when it is only half over.
R B
236. MasterAlThor
Sub,

I got the bat-cave all decked out and ready for emergancy evac if necessary. So I have to go there.

Tek,

I do talk to my wife, and I am honest with her. My question was why do the rules change? I am trying to make everything fair and even.

Example:

Wife tells husband, you shouldn't yell at the children they are just playing.

Husbands reponse: Ok honey, you are right.

Husband tells wife, you shouldn't yell at the children they are just playing.

Wifes response: What are you talking about?
Husband: You just told me not to yell at the kids.
Wife: We aren't talking you.
Husband: What???
Wife: You don't understand, they are making my head hurt.
Husband: But they are just playing....wait, you told me not to yell at the kids and now you are yelling at them.
Wife: Why don't you listen to me. My head hurts, and I don't have time for this.
Husband: I am just trying to understand here.
Wife: what's to understnad my head hurts.
Husband then walks away.

Now you can insert any situation in here. Married guys go through this all the time. And if they don't they have witnessed it.

The rules change. I just want to play by the same rules. Don't tell me the grass is green and then because you change your mind the grass is blue.

Please explain. Otherwise, I am chalking this up to allwomenarecrazyandsoIneedtogettoanindoctrinationcenterorgetmywifedeprogrammed.

Shoryuken
Rob Munnelly
237. RobMRobM
@229. Despite our differences (and we have them - for example, you will never, ever, ever see my wife on a WoT board), we make each other laugh and we are both working for the same team. R

EDIT - that being said, I had a similar issue with my wife as noted by MAT immediately above. The inconsistency drives me crazy on occasion.
Thomas Keith
238. insectoid
MAT @236: Off-topic: what does 'shoryuken' mean? Just wondering.

Bzzz™.
R B
239. MasterAlThor
JennB,

Congratulations. We religous people make for no absolutes here. We just believe that you have to have God at the center of your relationship or it may not work out the way you wanted it to.

You and your husband have made very wise decisions and have a very successful marriage. Good on you guys and may it continue to be that way.

I would like to ask the following questions.

Did you and your husband get married in a church?

Did you get married by a pastor/cleric?

Did you service include prayer or any mention of Scripture?

I say that if the answer to any of these questions is yes then God was involved in your relationship.

Actually, since I am religous, God has played a part in your lives whether you acknowledge him or not. But that is my belief.

Shoryuken
Marcus W
240. toryx
JennB:

Agreed. My partner and I actually had considerable trouble finding an officiant who would perform the ceremony given the non-religious and unique manner in which we were pursuing it. Religion and God have no role in our relationship and it's definitely not work. Frankly, it's never been easier.

Thanks for speaking out. Just wanted you to know you're not alone on that score.
R B
241. MasterAlThor
Insctoid,

I would think that you would know my friend.

It is what Ryu or Ken says when they do a Dragon Punch.

Otherwords it is from Street Fighter. Which I am currently playing a lot of. Online even.

Shoryuken

Edit: Spelling

PS. JennB, toryx and others.

I am very happy for you guys and how your marriages have worked out. I, even being religous, would never have you do it any other way. I have great joy for how your relationships have worked out.

Please do not think that I am trying to say that your relationships will fail.
Thomas Keith
242. insectoid
MAT @241: Aha... that makes total sense, keeping with the Dragon theme. (I haven't actually played SF in a looooonng time.)

::twitches some more::


Bzzz™.
Marcus W
243. toryx
MAT @ 239 and 241:

Just so you know, my answers to the questions you posed to JennB are all no. There was absolutely nothing of religious orientation involved in my ceremony, and I'm pretty sure all the witnesses were either atheist or agnostic.

I would point out, however, that I'm well aware that in some people's minds (the religious, I mean) including some of my family that means my relationship is not, in fact, a marriage. That's fine, I don't really care. As far as I'm concerned, a marriage is only what exists in the hearts of the people involved anyway.

No worries, I don't think you mean any ill will.

Oh, and by the way...

It is what Ryu or Ken says when they do a Dragon Punch.

I thought that was what you were talking about! It's been a long time, but I can still hear it.
Jennifer B
244. JennB
MasterAlThor@239
The answer to all of your questions would be no.

We got married in a state park.

Our officiant was a very nice woman who does all kinds of weddings.

Our vows were very short and professed our committment to and love for eachother.

Edit to add:
re 241
No problem. My marriage and my family are the most important parts of my life, so I just felt the need to speak up.
Rob Munnelly
245. RobMRobM
For the record, while my wife and I were married in a church, our kids are baptized and gotten sacraments, etc., we're not particularly religious either. Not happy with what's been going on in Catholic Church in recent years....
Matthew Smith
246. blocksmith
Sub and MAT-

In general, I agree with your premise. People should get to know each other and fully understand the commitment of marriage and live together married, for the rest of their lives. And animals shouldn't get hit by cars. And their should be no war. And no one should ever lose a loved to cancer. But it happens...just like divorce.

A quick story. I knew a couple that dated for an extended period of time, were both professionals, and had (or appeared to have) faith and religion in their lives. They waited until they were financially secure to have kids. They had everything...big house, two beautiful children, a dog, lived in a very affluent, safe community. Then it turns out the husband has been embezzling from his company. They lose everything in his name to fines and everything in her name trying to defend him. He tries to kill himself while in jail, becomes very unstable and violent, and ultimately gets a lengthy prison/hospital sentence. She did not know about the embezzling (so I understand) and divorces her husband. After everything...she stuck by him as long as possible. Sorry, I can't blame her.

Also, I'm not sure that a defined religion is necessary, but I would agree that shared spirituality (the real kind...not as my parish priest would call the "saying" your spiritual, but actually being spiritual) can be the glue that holds couples together even in the worst of times.
Matthew Smith
247. blocksmith
And now that we have digressed and beaten said horses, isn't it time for a new post? Pretty Please?
R B
248. MasterAlThor
Blocksmith,

Proverbs says "The rain falls on the just and unjust alike".

Meaning....everything happens to good and bad people.

I make no statement about what my fellow posters are. I was just speaking to blocksmiths post.

toryx, insectoid....

Hadoken, Sonic Boom, Psycho Crusher, Tiger Uppercut.

That should jar your memories. By the way, what version was the last that you played??? Ken is my favorite character.

Shoryuken
Andrew Belmont
249. rosetintdworld
@248: You forgot SPEEENING BIRRRRD KEEEEEK!

Ahem, sorry.
Marcus W
250. toryx
MAT @ 248:

Boy, we are really getting off topic now! :)

The last Street Fighter I played regularly was Street Fighter II, in college. In fact I played it too much and had a dip in grades for one semester as a consequence.

I've played a couple of the sequels a time or two, but not nearly as much.

Ryu and Chung Li were my favorites.
Noneo Yourbusiness
251. Longtimefan
So if Breane and Lamgwin are an item and Morgase and Tallanvor are supposed to become an item does this mean that Lini and Master Gill are destined to match up and become a third happy couple?

Since were are on the topic of Mawwigge.

and the new post is almost here.

and 250 seems to be a good average for these re reads.

man there are a lot of posts on this series of threads compared to the other offerings at Tor.com.
Matthew Smith
252. blocksmith
MAT@248

My point wasn't to focus on the unfairness of life (which beats us in the head and heart every time you turn on the evening news), more that, even with the best intentions, understanding, honesty, and preparedness (by at least one person in a relationship) the actions and behaviors of the other can create situations that are bad for the health and well-being of the other person and family, regardless of their dedication.

Toryx@250

Great idea for a new survey...at some point. What video game sucked up most of your time in college?

For me it was Sega NHL and Civilization on my PC.
Sam Mickel
253. Samadai
For me it was Final Fantasy on the Nintendo and Final Fantasy 2 on the Super Nintendo
Captain Hammer
254. Randalator
Jonathan Levy @223

Keep in mind that Mat is talking about a very specific betrayal, namely, telling people that Rand can channel. He is quite clear on this. He says "Rand, I’d never tell anyone about—about you. I wouldn’t betray you. You have to believe that!". This is not quite "Oh-I-might-turn-to-the-dark-side-in-book-13". Mat probably saw himself blabbing without thinking, like he did in Baerlon (I think) in TEOTW, and getting Rand gentled.

I'm not so sure if the "telling" really is about Rand being a channeler. The phrasing is so conviniently vague that it could just as well refer to him giving clues about Rand to the Seanchan or some other important information to god knows who.

And as I said earlier, there are probably very little people who think Mat's potential betrayal woul entail anything like going over to the shadow. I think it would be more like helping one of Rand's enemies (e.g. the Seanchan) which could be seen as a betrayal by Rand even though it's ultimately for his best.
Rob Munnelly
255. RobMRobM
For me, video games didn't exist (i.e., I didn't own a computer in college or graduate school). I did like playing Missle Command in arcades.
Darth Touma
256. BenM
I've heard an interesting explanation for why women are attracted to married men. It's that young men are so immature nowadays. They get married later and later, often live with their parents, and don't have to grow up for a long time. The married guys have more responsibility, and more maturity.

This is all generalities. I myself am a 36 yr old single guy, and I'm actually pretty mature. Even then, if my gf and I get married, I'm sure my maturity will even go to a higher level.

BTW, I'm also a religious guy, and while I think religion is valuable to a marriage, I don't believe that your marriage is invalid if it wasn't a religious one. I wouldn't think most people would feel it's invalid either. But who knows, people can be strange.
Darth Touma
257. BenM
Oh, LOVED Street Fighter II. I had it for the Sega Genesis. Ken, Ryu, Blanka, and Guile were my favorite characters. That game is a blast once you figure out how to make the special moves work most of the time. I had a rough time to get Guile's scissor kick to work more often than not, though.
Jennifer B
258. JennB
I didn't have my own computer (I had to borrow my boyfriend's or his roommates), so games didn't suck up a huge amount of my time. That said, I did finish Halflife and Total Annilation was a big hit when their was an extra computer I could borrow.
R B
259. MasterAlThor
I'm with Sam,

Fianl Fantasy sucked up so much time I've played every installment since the first one came out.

@249

Yes, I did forget that. Thanks for having my back.

BenM

Charge down and then press up. Works like a charm. BTW Guile was the first character I ever used.

Benn handling the game so long my thumbs bruised.

Shoryuken
a a-p
260. lostinshadow
Maybe I should be embarrassed to admit this but Worms sucked away almost an entire semester before I deleted it from my computer to stop myself from playing it.

Oh and Area 51

and Tomb Raider cost a lost weekend until a group of us tagged teamed through it.

can't for the life of me remember which fighter game we played the most often.

Oh yeah and how could I forget Doom.
R B
261. MasterAlThor
RobM2,

Wasn't sticks and stones out then???

Mis-behavingDragon...err that belongs to someone else, hang on.

NyanyaDragon
James Jones
262. jamesedjones
College computer games? Had to be Lemmings. lol

Loved that little time trap. :)

But that was my Bachelors. My Masters was put at risk several times by Civ II, even though it was fairly old by that time.
R B
263. MasterAlThor
Sam,

We need a Mat portal stone POV stat.

Ok, ok I know that you just can't whip one up just like that, but give us something so we can further this discussion.

Shoryuken
Theresa Gray
264. Terez27
@various - I would never try to say that anything is one-sided, because nothing ever is. Which is precisely why the word 'slut' offends me. It's so rarely used in reference to men that the word has gained some pretty ugly connotations about women in general.

I haven't read all of the threads here (not even close), so I was only commenting in reference to this particular discussion (and I haven't even read all of the posts in this thread). But I have been around the online fandom for a good few years, and while it's a bit of a generalization, the simple fact is that Mat is universally loved and adored for being a bad boy, while Berelain is castigated for traits that she and Mat happen to share. I don't mind a little Berelain-castigation, but her true fault lies in her persistence in pretending to pursue Perrin for no other reason than to hurt Faile. It has nothing to do with Berelain's sex life whatsoever, though Berelain of course makes use of Faile's prejudices in her little game. Calling her a 'slut' just adds unnecessary implications to the discussion, quite aside from the fact that the word itself is offensive.
Rob Munnelly
265. RobMRobM
@261. Me painted on wall of cave for fun.
Ron Garrison
266. Man-0-Manetheran
RobM shouldn't take all the heat. There were no computer games when I was in college - well maybe PacMan at the pizza place. (They didn't make a version for typewriters.) We actually sat down face to face and played cards! Can you imagine? Social interaction. Man, that was long ago... We did burn up lots of hours, however!
Marcus W
267. toryx
I should point out, when I played Street Fighter II it was at the 7 Eleven. That was quite a while before it was available on video game consoles.

Before that, the original Sim City was a big time sink too, though I couldn't play it as often since it was hard to get ahold of a computer.
T C
269. Freelancer
Gender egalitarianism neither precludes nor reinforces the tradition of a woman taking her husband's surname. As has been stated, demanding that there be no "standard" method of familial naming induces chaos. That said, I know a guy at work who agreed to take his wife's last name because she wouldn't marry him otherwise. They lasted almost 15 months.


Der Wikinger@130 and others

The reasons for the high prevalence of divorce is far more complex than the simplicity of divorce. In many places and times divorce has been as easy to accomplish, yet far more rare in fact. I am not a proponent of arranged marriages, but I am far less a proponent of the contemporary form of dating as a reliable method of finding "Mr/Mrs Right". As Wetlandernw would correctly state, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Our problem today is that of unrestrained appetites, and the wish to sample as many choices from the menu as possible. I wonder how many divorces would have been prevented, had both sets of parents (or other estimable concerned adults in the case of missing or unreliable parents) been consulted and involved in the courtship process. Immediately upon reading these words, many will instantly consider me a neanderthal, a throwback. Well, fine, think of me what you will. But think of your children and how much you care if they have as good or better a romantic relationship as your own, and what you believe proper to do to help ensure such happiness for them. Disconnecting the children from the experience of wise adults in this so important area of their lives leads to decisions made in a virtual vacuum.

I'm sure it is no surprise that Wetlandernw@154 says the rest of what I would say in this regard, so there is no further need for me to pontificate in this regard. My daughter knows that if a suitor doesn't impress me, she will have to find extraordinary reasons in her own mind and heart to consider overriding my judgement and keeping him. I cannot and will not prevent her making her own decisions, but I will not withhold my judgement and opinion on the stupid pretense that to do otherwise is meddling interference. If parents do not "interfere" with their children's potentially erroneous actions, the children are not likely to live to adulthood. That responsibility of the parents should only end when the progeny marries.

Divorce is never a good thing. It is occasionally the best thing, but never a good thing.


Terez27@202

Yep, Mat's a slut. While it's use directed at a male is rare, it is not intentionally gender-specific. In fact, it fits Mat better than Berelain, for all that I don't like her one bit. It is one among several attributes of Mat that don't enhance my liking for his character.


gagecreedlives@214

Funny you should bring that up. I recently made something approaching an ultimatum regarding my current position/compensation that might be viewed as comparable to an Aiel woman declaring herself a Wise One. I'll know the results when I get back home next week.


Wetlandernw@215

Ouch. Given what I just wrote, that stings...


MasterAlThor, subwoofer, et al...

I don't know what I did wrong. My wife doesn't make me perform second-order analysis to understand what she means. She speaks clearly and thoughtfully about what she really intends to say, what she really intends to be understood. Maybe she missed some "lessons". If so, I'm glad to be the recipient of the benefits.
Theresa Gray
270. Terez27
@Freelancer - The strict definition of the word 'slut' is female. Yes, some occasionally use it in reference to men, but it doesn't quite have the same connotations. It's like the N word; just because some black people use it in reference to themselves doesn't mean that the word is any less offensive.

Also, why would Mat's sex life be a reason to dislike him?
diane heath
271. jadelollipop
@ various Maybe I am once again overlooking the sexual aspects of WOT but my impression of Mat was that he liked to flirt and to chase (only those who wanted to be chased). Granted he may have kissed and cuddled a fair few but the only "serious" relationships were Melindhra and Tylin.
On a side note is it odd that Perrin is the "dull" character who has dropped in popularity and he is the only one married of the taveren and only main character until Nynaeve and Lan?
John Massey
272. subwoofer
@Terez- fine, Mat is a man-whore.

@Free- you didn't do anything wrong. As a matter of fact, sounds like you won the lottery, now go and clone your wife and share your tremendous find with the rest of civilization. I agree with what you say about the rest of it, and yes, you don't have to voice it, we know you are old.

@M A T- well, the reality is, she is always right. That's it. And my own folks and her folks agree, at least in my case the moms are on the side of justice. I have found that the only thing worse than one woman using wonky logic, is two women using wonky logic. Let it go. In the end, my wife deals with my colorful language and my dirty underwear, so I call it even. Er... I actually do the laundry in the house, I just leave my underwear around so it pisses her off. Gotta even the scales somehow:P

Games- Ultima IV. Then Double Dragon II arcade. Then Golden Eye-N64. Then KTOR. Ahhhh memories.


Woof™.
Theresa Gray
274. Terez27
@271 - RJ confirmed that Mat has had sex with a lot of women:

Thus Spake The Creator - Mat Cauthon

Mat has indeed had far and away more MPS experience than our other young heroes, and intends to get much much more. I believe the quote was something like "The world is full of beautiful women, and Mat wants to romp barefoot though them all (or was that with them all, same thing). He's slept with lots of women; he's slept with women old enough to be his mother..."


But still, what's the big deal? Who is he hurting? As has been noted, he typically chases the women who want to be chased.
khiry washington
275. coolman12
hello all im new to all of this im MAT lil brother and i just got done reading the 12th book and now im a big fan of the wheel of time.
Bonnie Andrews
276. misfortuona
Hello coolman12. Any Brother of MAT's is welcome. Well everyone is welcome, but you know what I mean. Don't know if your old enough for the bar in bunker, but your welcome to cookies and bacon anytime.
Suffa grab this fellow a chair.

Mis-welcoming
Sam Mickel
277. Samadai
Awesome, glad to meet you, welcome to the insanity.
Tricia Irish
278. Tektonica
Welcome Coolman12!

Glad you made it to the reread and went gray immediately.

Make yourself at home in the bunker!
khiry washington
279. coolman12
lol i am about to be 21 and some times i feel older then MAT but thank you before this book i was looking for a good book to read and i found one or to but this one is it for me
Darth Touma
280. Zerlina
Why arent the new posts showing up on the index?
Darth Touma
281. Lilyan
Ugh Faile, Ugh Perrin, UGGH Berelain. They all piss me off. Perrin the most. His storyline does not appeal to me what so ever. and neither does morgases. So these two storylines colliding does not amuse me. Oh and it gets even worse when the shaido get into it. Yuck!

But I did love Perrins moment of awesome.

Faile's anger hmmm.. Well, we all know perrin does not pick up body language feelings becuz WOT's male characters are all clueless when it comes to women. So i assume that Faile also ACTS angry, in a girly " im angry but i want you to figure it out way", but perrin does not notice that instead he figures it out by her smell. So Faile does want him to know shes angry in my mind. :P.

What does Berelain want with Perrin anyway? she wasnt interested until Rand blew her off meh.

Oh and Tallanovor
Darth Touma
282. Cayour
I'm 3 1/2 years late to the party, and I don't even know if anyone still reads the comments, but DAMN! is my viewpoint on the whole Perrin/Faile/Berlain disaster changed!! No, I did not make the connection that Faile didn't know that Perrin could tell that she was angry. I took for granted that she knew that he could tell and I resented her stubborness for it. Your epiphany that she has no clue makes total sense. I could almost forgive them both for their behavior now and just chalk the whole thing up to another WOT example of what happens when you don't COMMUNICATE with people. Thanks for this!! I actually feel quite relieved.

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