Apr 30 2010 2:02pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Path of Daggers, Part 3

Hidy-ho, WOTers! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Re-read!

Today’s entry covers Chapters 3 and 4 of The Path of Daggers, in which things continue to continue.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of information regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And now, the post!

Chapter 3: A Pleasant Ride

What Happens
The party travels through the drought-ridden countryside, the Warders guiding them so as to avoid being sighted by people. Elayne tries to enjoy the ride, but is not having a lot of success. Aviendha has found out that the Windfinder she stopped at the gateway did not pass her message of warning to Elayne, and Elayne is trying to convince her not to do anything that will “start a war” between the Windfinders and the rest of the party, when Adeleas comes up and suggests that it might be best if Elayne let Aviendha have a “loose rein” regarding the Sea Folk, since they are so much more wary of the “savage Aiel” than anyone else. Elayne looks at the other Aes Sedai, who are busily looking elsewhere, and asks why; Adeleas answers that it might restore some balance against “other things”, if the Sea Folk think they need Aes Sedai protection from the Aiel woman. Elayne knows what she’s referring to, and sends Adeleas back curtly; she obeys courteously, but with a small smile.

The older Aes Sedai accepted that Nynaeve and Elayne stood above them and spoke with Egwene’s authority at their backs, but the truth was, that changed little beyond the surface. Perhaps nothing. They were outwardly respectful, they obeyed, and yet…

After all was said and done, Elayne, at least, was Aes Sedai at an age when most initiates of the Tower still wore novice white and very few had reached the Accepted. And she and Nynaeve had agreed to that bargain, hardly a display of wisdom and acumen. Not just the Sea Folk getting the Bowl, but twenty sisters going to the Atha’an Miere, subject to their laws, required to teach anything the Windfinders wanted to learn and unable to leave until others came to replace them. Windfinders allowed to enter the Tower as guests, allowed to learn whatever they wished, leave whenever they wished. Those alone would make the Hall scream, and probably Egwene as well, yet the rest… Every last one of the older sisters thought she would have found a way around making that bargain. Perhaps they really could have. Elayne did not believe it, but she was not sure.

Aviendha comments that she’s more than willing to “serve honor” even if it helps some Aes Sedai end as well, and after a moment of hesitation Elayne nods; she has misgivings, but thinks something has to be done to rein in the Sea Folk before there is an explosion. She asks that Aviendha not be too “emphatic”, though. Aviendha grins and falls back to ride next to Kurin, the Windfinder who had failed to deliver her message. Elayne glances back and sees Aviendha speaking quite calmly, and Kurin staring at her in astonishment; after Aviendha pulls away, Kurin heads over to Renaile, who a few minutes later angrily sends Rainyn to Elayne to demand that she “snub in” the Aiel woman. Aviendha grins “toothily” at her, and Elayne replies she will ask Aviendha to be careful, but she can’t make her do anything, adding “you know how Aiel are”. The Sea Folk having some very odd notions of “how Aiel are”, this makes Rainyn go pale before she takes off. Aviendha chortles with glee, but Elayne wonders if the whole notion is a mistake, noting that the Sea Folk look angry, not frightened – and not at Aviendha, but at the sisters. The Aes Sedai seem pleased about it, though. The interruptions continue through the trip, with the Kin and the Aes Sedai alternating to come up one by one to Elayne and make different arguments about why Ispan should be held by the sisters and not the Kin. Elayne refuses each one, growing more and more irritated, but when Merilille obliquely suggests that they might be Darkfriends, Elayne becomes furious, reminding Merilille that the Kin had faced two Black Ajah and the gholam in the Rahad, losing two of their number in the process, and that Merilille had better never dare suggest a thing without hard evidence again, threatening her with a penance that will “make her eyes pop”. She is shrieking by the end of this speech.

Everyone was looking at her, most in astonishment. Aviendha nodded approvingly. Of course, she have done the same had Elayne plunged a knife into Merilille’s heart. Aviendha stood beside her friends no matter what. Merilille’s Cairhienin paleness had become dead white.

“I mean what I say,” Elayne told her, in a much cooler tone. It seemed to make even more blood leave Merilille’s face. She did mean every word; they could not afford that sort of rumor floating among them.

Even after this, though, the campaign continues. Next is Sareitha, who argues that the Kin must be lying about their ages; then Vandene has a go, though her argument is more subtle. She talks of how to counteract the bargain Elayne and Nynaeve had made with the Sea Folk, and segues from there into a discussion of how the Tower had held sway for so many thousands of years, which is by remaining apart from the rest of the world, seeming mysterious, and “of a different flesh”. It takes a Elayne a minute to see what she’s getting at, but realizes that Vandene is saying that it does not maintain the mysterious, aloof mien of Aes Sedai to have one of their number, even an evil one, tied in a sack and drugged up for all the world to see. Elayne thinks this might have actually had some weight with her if it had been used first, but as it is she sends Vandene back with the others. But the campaign continues, and Elayne is sure it wouldn’t have done so if Nynaeve was there to back her up, but Nynaeve has glued herself to Lan’s side, and every time she comes back to check in, it always manages to be right at a point when no one is badgering Elayne about anything. Elayne tries explaining, but Nynaeve answers that she’s sure all Elayne’s queen training is more than up to the task, and takes off; Elayne considers shrieking again. Aviendha then decides to start a discussion about how much she liked when Rand kissed her neck; Elayne remembers she had liked that too, but is not exactly in the mood to talk about it at the moment.

Aviendha had some knowledge of men—she had traveled with them as a Maiden of the Spear, fought beside them—but she had never wanted to be anything but Far Dareis Mai, and there were… gaps. Even with her dolls as a child she had always played at the spears and raiding. She had never flirted, did not understand it, and she did not understand why she felt the way she did when Rand’s eyes fell on her, or a hundred other things Elayne had begun learning the first time she noticed a boy looking at her differently than he did at the other boys. She expected Elayne to teach her all of it, and Elayne tried. She really could talk to Aviendha about anything. If only Rand had not been the example used quite so often. If he had been there, she would have boxed his ears. And kissed him. Then boxed his ears again.

Finally Nynaeve returns to say that the Kin’s farm is just ahead; she sends Lan to bring Reanne up front, so the inhabitants will see a familiar face first, and orders the Aes Sedai to make sure their faces are hidden in their cloaks to avoid scaring them. Then she comments to Elayne that she doesn’t know what Elayne was so upset about; everything seems perfectly fine to her. Elayne grinds her teeth and wishes she were in Caemlyn already; surely even handling a potential Succession would be easier than this.

So this chapter is where we finally learn (some of) the actual terms of the bargain Nynaeve and Elayne made with the Sea Folk, and I have to say that even as someone often annoyed with the Aes Sedai, this “deal” made my hair stand on end. I mean, YIKES. That is horrible.

It gets even more horrible later, when we learn what being “subject to Sea Folk laws” actually entails (though I’ll hold off on covering that pile of stupid until we get to it), but even without this knowledge, given the general Tower “aloof and apart” stance which Vandene details here, to say the Aes Sedai are going to “scream” about it may just be the understatement of the century.

And honestly, I would be on the Aes Sedai’s side if they did. While I have been frequently on record in decrying the Aes Sedai tendency to disdain or belittle anyone not Aes Sedai, that doesn’t mean humiliating them in turn is either ethical or effective. Two wrongs not making a right, and alla that; not to mention that just as violence often only begets more violence, degradation in return for degradation is generally just as downward-spiral-inducing.

I now realize that this is also part of my discomfort with the “kneel or be knelt” scene at the end of LOC, though I did not state it in so many words when I recapped that scene. As much as we might initially like to see arrogance get its comeuppance, there is no getting around the fact that the most frequent result of revenge is not resolution, but escalation.

Actually, that is the problem with the entire Bowl of the Winds storyline, which can be characterized as a series of petty vengeance upon petty vengeance in multiple directions, continually threatening to escalate out of control. Since this behavior is pretty much the definition of “counter-productive”, maybe we should stop being surprised that it takes so goddamn long to resolve. The only saving grace here, really, is a meta one, in that as screamingly annoying as this behavior may be, it’s hard to dispute that it is also unfortunately very true to the way people in opposing groups often behave. This is why the world has problems.

So I guess my point is, Damn, humanity, stop sucking so much!

As to Elayne’s (tentative) claim that none of the other Aes Sedai would have fared any better with the bargaining, I can’t decide whether she’s kidding herself or not. Going by Merana and Rafela’s results in their bargain on Rand’s behalf, I come up with a solid “Um”. I guess it depends on whether you think the terms Merana obtained are better than Elayne’s, or not.

The only thing I am sure of is that if I lived in Randland, I would avoid having anything to do with bargaining with the Sea Folk AT ALL COSTS. Actually I would avoid having anything to do with the Sea Folk, period, because damn.

Okay, now I’m too irritated to talk about the neck-kissing thing, except to say that I found it amusing for the “horny teenagers” image it produces.

As a final note, Elayne’s thought about Caemlyn at the end of the chapter contains a nearly toxic level of irony, which I shall refrain from touching except to point out and then run away very fast. ¡Ándale!

Chapter 4: A Quiet Place

What Happens
The farm is actually more like a small village, with over a hundred inhabitants, except that they are all women. They don’t seem that surprised by the party’s approach, and Aviendha points out to Elayne the lookouts on the hill. A woman who looks to be middle-aged comes to meet them, and Reanne tells Elayne that the woman’s name is Alise, and adds that she “does not suffer fools gladly”. Alise smiles as she recognizes Reanne, and begins to greet her before trailing off, staring beyond them.

Elayne glanced back, nearly loosing a few of the choice phrases she had picked up in various places, most recently from Mat Cauthon. She did not understand all of them, not most of them really—nobody ever wanted to explain what they meant exactly—but they did have a way of relieving emotion. The Warders had doffed their color-shifting cloaks, and the sisters had drawn up the hoods of their dust-cloaks as instructed, even Sareitha, who had no need to hide her youthful face, but Careane had not pulled hers forward far enough. It simply framed her ageless features.

Careane jerks her hood forward at Elayne’s glare, but it’s too late; a woman shrieks “Aes Sedai!” and instant pandemonium ensues, all the farm folk screaming and running in every direction. Nynaeve yells for Lan and the Warders to go catch them; Lan seems skeptical of the usefulness of this, but obeys. Elayne agrees with Lan, but shrugs and gestures for Birgitte to follow. Alise doesn’t run, instead promising to make Reanne answer for betraying them; Reanne scrambles down and hurriedly explains the situation, with the wonderful (to Reanne) news that they can go back to the Tower. Alise, on the other hand, is less than thrilled, and demands to know why she should want to go back to the Tower only to be told again she isn’t strong enough, and either sent away or kept a novice for the rest of her life. Nynaeve dismounts and opines that she doesn’t know why strength matters as long as you pass “the fool tests”, but at any rate Alise can go or stay, whatever she wants. Nynaeve goes on to Reanne that time is wasting; if there’s anyone here they can use, say so, so they can get on with it. Alise is doubtful when Reanne names Elayne and Nynaeve Aes Sedai, and doesn’t accept it until Merilille comes up and says the same; Elayne is annoyed once again by this, but admits Nynaeve carrying on like that hadn’t helped. Merilille has come up to tell Nynaeve (with a smile) that the Windfinders have dismounted, and that she thinks some of them may need Healing. Nynaeve looks at the hobbling Sea Folk a moment, then tells Merilille to Heal them—if they ask nicely. Merilille smiles again, but Nynaeve has moved on to the farm, and heads off with Alise, telling her how to go about getting all the women back and calmed down. Elayne notes that Alise is alternating between nods and “very level looks” which Nynaeve doesn’t seem to notice. Elayne heads toward the packhorses, but then notices that all the Kin with them have gone to the farm and left Ispan with Adeleas and Vandene, who have linked and are sharing Ispan’s shield, and are dragging her toward a small outbuilding off to the side. Angrily, Elayne follows them, Aviendha in tow, and finds them inside. Vandene tells Elayne that the drugs are wearing off, and she and Adeleas thought it would be good to get some questioning done now and find out what the Black Ajah had been up to in Ebou Dar. Ispan sneers and says the Black Ajah are a “filthy fable”, and she was obeying orders from the true Amyrlin Seat.

Elaida?” Elayne spat incredulously. “You have the nerve to claim that Elaida ordered you to murder sisters and steal from the Tower? Elaida ordered what you did in Tear and Tanchico? Or do you mean Siuan? Your lies are pathetic! You’ve forsaken the Three Oaths, somehow, and that names you Black Ajah.”

Ispan answers sullenly that she doesn’t have to answer questions from rebels, and Aviendha states matter-of-factly that she will; wetlanders fear pain. She’s playing with her knife as she says this, and Ispan shrinks back, but Adeleas interjects that it is not permitted to shed blood during questioning. Elayne thinks that Ispan had been much more frightened when she thought only Elayne and Nynaeve had captured her, but once she found out there were older sisters there who would adhere absolutely to the laws governing Tower interrogations, she had regained her confidence. Elayne takes a deep breath and tells Vandene and Adeleas that she wants them to leave her and Aviendha alone with Ispan.

She could hear another voice, not Lini’s this time, but her mother’s. What you order done, you must be willing to do with your own hand. As a queen, what you order done, you have done. If she did break the law… Her mother’s voice again. Even a queen cannot be above the law, or there is no law. And Lini’s. You can do whatever you wish, child. So long as you’re willing to pay the price.

Elayne thinks that she will submit herself for penance after, if necessary. Ispan’s eyes widen in fear; Adeleas and Vandene look at each other, then Vandene takes Elayne and Aviendha each by an arm and more or less drags them outside, where Nynaeve and Alise are (literally) herding frightened Kinswomen inside one of the other buildings. Vandene contemplates Elayne and Aviendha for a moment, then says she thinks it is best if women with experience handle “this sort of thing”; younger women can either do too much or not enough; or worse, develop a taste for it. Aviendha hurriedly sheathes her knife. Vandene then seems to consider her recommendation taken, and goes back inside.

No sooner had she disappeared behind it, than Elayne felt the use of the Power within, a weave that must have blanketed the room inside. A ward against eavesdropping, certainly. They would not want stray ears to catch whatever Ispan said. Then another use hit her, and suddenly the silence from within was more ominous than any shrieks that ward would contain.

She rather breathlessly suggests to Aviendha that they go look at the packhorses, and Aviendha quickly agrees. Meanwhile Alise has ordered the Windfinders to follow her; Renaile is infuriated by her lack of respect, but Alise ignores her, and eventually they all waddle after her, still saddle-sore. Elayne automatically begins thinking of how to smooth the waters, then realizes she doesn’t really want to, and leaves it alone; Aviendha is grinning openly. They go to searching through the Rahad stash, and find a wealth of ter’angreal in four packhorses’ worth of stuff, most in the form of either dishware, figurines, or jewelry, though there are others:

Aviendha found a dagger with gold wire wrapped around a hilt of rough deerhorn; the blade was dull, and by all evidence, always had been. She kept turning that over and over in her fingers—her hands actually began to tremble—until Elayne took it away from her and put it with the others on the cistern’s lid. Even then Aviendha stood for a time, looking at it and licking her lips as though they had gone dry. […] a pair of peculiar hats seemingly made of metal, too ornate and too thin to be helmets […] A rod, as thick as her wrist, bright red and smooth and rounded, firm rather than hard for all that it seemed to be stone; it did not warm slightly in her hand, it almost felt hot! Not real heat any more than the warmth was real, but still!

They also find two more angreal: a bracelet-and-finger-ring set, and an ivory figurine of a cross-legged woman Elayne likes very much:

One hand rested on a knee, palm up and fingers arranged so the thumb touched the tips of the middle two fingers, while the other hand was lifted, the first two fingers raised and the others folded. The whole figure carried an air of supreme dignity, yet the delicately worked face showed amusement and delight. Maybe it had been made for a particular woman? It seemed personal, somehow.

They are still going through the stash when a rather disheveled Nynaeve comes up and tells them that can wait; it’s time.

What, this isn’t over yet? Eesh.

Hah, Elayne doesn’t even know what her own profanity means. That explains a lot—though it still doesn’t explain what “summer ham” actually refers to. I guess the possibility that several commenters offered—that summer hams are just kind of like low-end crappy meat—is the best explanation, but that strikes me as… weak. There’s plenty of ways to be way more insulting than that without even resorting to “real” profanity, is all I’m saying. Oh well.

That’s just one of several reminders in this chapter of how young Elayne is—and Aviendha too, for that matter. The other big one, of course, being what happens between them and Vandene over Ispan’s interrogation. I was kind of torn about this scene when I first read it. On the one hand, Vandene’s point is well taken, but on the other, I was getting really annoyed by this point at the seeming ongoing erosion of Elayne’s (and Nynaeve’s) authority—especially since in some ways it seemed rather deserved.

It’s a real dilemma when, on the one hand, you want your protagonist to win out and prove herself, and on the other, you have to keep wincing at how she’s screwing up. This does not make for comfortable reading, you guys! But, I guess it is kind of more realistic than if Elayne and Nynaeve just effortlessly bested every obstacle in their way—including their own internal flaws. I SUPPOSE, she says, grumpily.

The scene with Vandene also strongly suggests, by the way, that the Aes Sedai may be tied to their strength-based hierarchy by both entrenched custom and law, but that at least some sisters are quite capable of coming up with ways around it if necessary.

I can’t decide, at this point, whether to be annoyed by this, or relieved. Argh.

Careane: I’ve got to say, in hindsight this was a risky move, setting the farm on its ear like that. It wouldn’t have been if this was the only thing Careane did, but since I have to assume she was planning all along to murder Ispan as soon as she got the opportunity, drawing attention to herself by almost sort of disobeying Nynaeve here doesn’t seem like it would be worth the trouble it caused, which in the end was not all that much.

Of course, I say that now, but there is the point that no one, either within the story or among the readership, could come to a consensus that Careane was definitely the Black Ajah mole in Elayne’s party until she basically outed herself three books later. So maybe I should shut up, eh?

Nynaeve’s speech to Alise is interesting in light of the discussion going on last post about whether Egwene would try to enforce her declaration re: channeling women and the Tower, since it seems that Nynaeve, at least, thinks the offered association is strictly voluntary. Of course, Nynaeve could just be putting forth her own opinion as fact (something Nynaeve has been guilty of more than once), but I think she’s right, myself. Even if Egwene wanted to force the association, I don’t think she could do so—and I think Nynaeve and Elayne would have serious objections to it if she did. And I don’t think she does, anyway. Want to force it, I mean.

The ter’angreal: I’m really wondering what is up with that deerhorn knife Aviendha was so twitchy about. I don’t think it’s come up again, but then again as I’ve said my memory for a lot of things post-ACOS is pretty sketchy, so there’s that.

I do, however, remember what happens with the, ahem, Hot Rod Elayne finds. I’m just… I’m just going to leave that straight line, you know, lying there.


The metal hats: am I the only who immediately assumed that these were some type of Power-activated walkie-talkie? I’m pretty sure I’m not. I don’t remember if we hear anything more about these either.

On the seated female figurine angreal: I spent over an hour Googling to try and identify that pose, because I’m virtually positive it’s from something I’ve seen before. Though obviously the one hand is using a traditional yoga meditation pose, the opposite upraised hand is different. I thought maybe it was a reference to one of the Hindu pantheon, but nothing I’ve found matches exactly, though Vinayagar comes close. As there are literally thousands of gods and goddesses in the Hindu tradition, I gave up after a while, but if anyone else wants to give it a go, I’d love to hear if you find it.

And that’s what I got for this one. Tune in next Tuesday, when I do believe Something Happens. Astounding, I know. Ciao!

craig thrift
1. gagecreedlives
My god. I actually made it. I managed to stay awake until a post was up. I guess I better read it now
Andrew Belmont
2. rosetintdworld
Thanks for the new post, Leigh! I personally found these chapters rather painful, but I said that the last post too. Sorry. Chapters 5 and 6 are a lot of fun, IIRC.

In KOD, I believe that Aviendha identifies the dagger ter'angreal as something that "shields you from the Dark One's eyes." Unfortunately right after that Amys whisks her away, and Elayne's absence in TGS means we don't learn anything more concrete than that. I assume it would make you immune to things like Fain's tracking abilities, and naming the DO, but what relevance it will have for Elayne is anybody's guess.
Kerwin Miller
3. tamyrlink
i always thought the hats were for operating some kind of machine from the AOL. ya know, put the hat on, the machine does what you think it to do. kinda similar to cerebro from xmen in a way...not exact but kinda
Joel Halnan
4. mainphramephreak
Yes, the metal helmets were ment to control machines. Aviendha discovered that at the same time as the dull dagger. Great post Leigh. Wonderfull as always.
Karen Fox
5. thepupxpert
Here is the link to the Traveler Women of Ireland that sound so like our WOT Tinkers:
Tricia Irish
6. Tektonica
Thanks Leigh for making the very annoying only boring. These chapters have so little meat in them. But never fear, I'm sure we can find some mole hill to make a mountain out of. Thank you!

Edit: I didn't mean Leigh was boring....just the chapters. Yawn.

Sea Folk----ARGH!!
7. chaplainchris
Agreed with rosetintdworld @ 2 - the dagger is the thing that shield you from the DO's eyes. I do wonder if that's what RJ originally intended, or even if he had an original intent. While certainly a useful property, I don't quite understand why it would make Aviendha tremble and twitch that way. Her reaction reminds me of Pippin with the palantiri - it seemed much more ominous here than in KOD.

The metal hats, iirc, are revealed at the same point in KOD to, I think controls for Age of Legends vehicles. So, useless nowadays. I think.

Beyond that, yay, reread post!

As for Careane - this, along with the now-known-to-be-false Taimandred theory, is one of the places I sort of want to complain about RJ. I mean, both Careane and Sareitha are suspicious. In Caemlyn, Careane sneaks out of the palace suspiciously. But Sareitha is, later, enamored of Doilin Mellar aka what's his name, while Careane is cold to him. (How does that make sense?) It's one of those cases where we're never given the info or hints to be able to guess who the real BA is, which makes for an unsatisfying mystery.

Oh well.
Tricia Irish
8. Tektonica
I pictured the silly red hats with wires and stuff coming out of them, used as some sort of torture device....or maybe a Randland hair dryer....same thing.

Glad you posted that link pupxpert@5!

Edit: I know it's a vehicle control device, but these were my impressions at my first reading....trying to find something amusing here....
craig thrift
9. gagecreedlives
IIRC encyclopaedia WoT suggests a link between Aviendha and Nynaeve both handling the knife and making some odd comments. An apology perhaps?

And on that note bedtime. Cheers for the post Leigh
Jennifer McBride
10. vegetathalas
I always though the sea folk sounded cool...until we got to know them. Grrr.
Ron Garrison
11. Man-0-Manetheran
“A Pleasant Ride” to “A Quiet Place” Nothing much happens. You can’t say we weren’t warned! And bad bargain? Could the other sisters have done better? I doubt if they could have done worse. The SG’s did not know what they were up against. Even though later Merana didn’t have much success with the Sea Folk, at least she stayed at the table and didn’t give up the farm at the first opportunity.
Steven Pattingale
12. Pattingale
Thanks for the re-read! Great job, good questions. Darned if I know the answer about the figurine's pose, but my guess is it'd be typical RJ, a combination of things, not just one.

Maybe the hats are tinfoil hats, and they protect you from mind reading! :D

@10 Totally.
13. robertmee
@ rosetintdworld 2: That's exactly what I think the knife is... which would be a heck of a find and would certainly make ME twitchy. Imagine if Rand had that through TGS?

Great reread Leigh! I LOVE it.
14. Lsana
What does the "hot rod" do? I'm afraid I have no memory of it whatsoever. Can someone help me?

Re: Careane

I have to say that the "who is the Black Ajah in Elayne's group?" is on my list of really pointless plot threads. But I'll get more into that as we get more into it.

And yes, Careane's behavior here was rather stupid if she was already planning the Adelas/Ispan murders. It should have raised the suspicions of the other Aes Sedai. The only reason it didn't confirm it for the fans was that we pretty much knew that there was only 1 BA in Elayne's group, and several of the others were behaving suspiciously too.
15. Megaduck
As much as the SeaFolk Bargain is horrible it also seems to be the pattern forcing the Aes Sadai back to being what they're supposed to being.


It also ties a thread to the Seafolk and starts making the Tower more of an information clearing house then a manipulation central. If the Sea Folk, the Kin, and the Wise Ones can all come to the tower and kick back and have a cup of tea then it's really becoming a guild.

Heh, the Hot Rod. I didn't get it when I was younger and now I'm just curious what it did to Elayne, and how embarrassing was it...

I actually had the opposite reaction to Vandene's suggestion. It suggested that finally Elayne was getting the sort of experienced guidance she desperately needs.

People don't advise people much in WOT. They bully, manipulate, and jockey for position, but you rarely see a wise old mentor sit down and actually try and TEACH something.

This actually is one of my problems with the entire Tom/Elayne relationship in the series. He's a political master, and she's a novice that is going to desperately need those skills. The fact that he spends the time playing glorified servant and not explaining what he was doing put my teeth on edge.

Also, I will point out this is one of the few times one of the super girls delegates ANYTHING.
16. chaplainchris
Re: the bad bargain with the Sea Folk - and I know we'll discuss Sea Folk treatment of teachers later - but it seems like it shouldn't be quite so bad as is thought. Talaan, at least, seemed to think that outside teaching sessions, Aes Sedai could give orders, or simply announce that Talaan was being taken to Tar Valon, and that would be it. I suspect that she's right, and that the obnoxious Sea Folk would have behaved that way if Nynaeve and the others hadn't dismissed Talaan out of hand.

Likewise, I don't see that Elayne and Nynaeve agreeing to send teachers means that the teachers have to conform to SF views of what a teacher is. The idea that a student can order what they are to learn, and how, and a punish the teacher? Ridiculous! I'd have the Aes Sedai, as a group, push forward with THEIR definition of teachers...IOW, you sit down and behave in class or stay after school! And where's my apple!

IOW, I think the balance will get redressed eventually.

Oh, and Elayne negotiates with Egwene to make sure that the SF Windfinders will have special protections, along with the Wise Ones - so Egwene has no intention of forcing Wise Ones or Windfinders to be under Tower control.
Joel Halnan
17. mainphramephreak
@14 Lsana

Andrew Belmont
18. rosetintdworld
Hoo boy, Lsana@14. We never find out EXACTLY what the hot rod does, because it causes Elayne to black out and wake up naked and sweaty surrounded by people laughing at her. Which has led the fandom to decide that the "hot rod" does exactly what you'd think.

Now the woman's pose in the ter'angreal is really starting to bother me. Agreed that it's possible that it's a mishmash of appropriated cultures, which Jordan was fond of. Then again, he also used the Mercedes Benz logo in TSR--hence why I'm trying so hard to think of what real-world equivalent the woman could be. Anybody?

Re: Careane. I think what bothered me most about the plot was not the buildup, but the resolution. Three books of clues, each implicating a different suspect, are resolved when Temaile (or Asne?) says "Hi, Careane is Black Ajah!" Meh.
19. Lsana
@17 mainphramephreak, 18 rosetintdworld,


I did ask.

Thank you.
20. Vadik2
I know that the red rod was somehow resopnsible for what happened to Elane in that inn down the road, though I'm not exactly sure what happened outside of her stripping naked. I do know that the first thing that came to my mind when I read this was the Ageal fron the Sword of Truth series, which causes great pain and sometimes death to those who touch it.
john mullen
21. johntheirishmongol
Slow and annoying chapters. However, from the interview with Harriet, I am positing that here in this book was where the talking heads thing came up and so RJ had the BA murdered.

BTW, my wife won the tribble hunt song contest. If you get a chance, go read it. I thought it was fairly awesome.
22. Beerwulf
Leigh, Enjoying the read-through, this post has grown a bit from when I started it...

The Sea Folk Bargain:
I don't understand why Elayne didn't walk away from the deal, or at least threaten to. Admittedly, it's a bit of a risk, but given the Sea Folk were not dealing fair, they had no other option.

Given that the Sea Folk care about the state of the weather, and the Dark One's effect on the world, then the prospect of a bunch of Aes Sedai with little weather experience (Elayne in TSR) should terrify them sufficently back to the bargaining table.

Conversely, although the Sea Folk have weather experience, the E&N have the bowl.

In other words, it E&N played a reasonably strong hand very badly, and I'm suprised that Elayne's diplomatic training let it happen.

That being said, given it happened off screen, I can't help but think it was Rober Jordan's hand surrepticiously moving the pieces on the board wheile we were feeling outrage (or otherwise) over Tylin & Mat.
Richard Fife
23. R.Fife

A variant of the Buddhist Lotus Position. Although this whole "very personal, made for someone in particular" thing confuses me.
Marcus W
24. toryx
The thing that I don't understand about the twins and Elayne's acceptance of their suggestion that she walk away from the "questioning" is why Elayne was so trusting of them. I know they're older and as a consequence wiser, all of that. But she knows there are BA out there, she's got one right in front of her, and she doesn't think for a second that maybe someone ought to keep an eye on what they're doing, or what Ispan says under questioning?

I wouldn't have a problem with that, if it weren't for the fact that she and Nynaeve have traveled hundreds of miles for the purpose of hunting Black Ajah. Yeah, there was a lot going on right then but I'd still have thought that one of the two would be a little more cautious about things like this. Particularly when you consider that Ispan wasn't nearly as concerned in dealing with the AS as she was with Aviendha.
25. Seamus1602
I will never understand why Elayne and Nyneave felt the need to enlist the Sea Folk's help with the Bowl of the Winds. There was never any indication that Aes Sedai couldn't work the thing on their own.

Every time I think about that bargain, I can't understand why they didn't just walk away. They paid a great deal for a completely unnecessary piece of assistance.

Biggest failing of Elayne and Nyn is paying ANYTHING for help that they didn't need and should have been offered freely by any enemy of the Shadow.

Like others, this whole storyline just pisses me off.
26. winterking
The pose of the 'seated woman' angreal reminds me of both the yoga pose and, for the upraised hand, poses in some medieval and Byzantine religious art. I have seen quite a few icons and other paintings, often of saints or Christ, where one hand is raised, with the index and middle fingers up and the other fingers folded. Google Image Search isn't finding the examples that I remember, but here are a few links to such images:

The other examples I recall seeing had the saints/angels/etc using the two extended fingers almost as if they were pointing at things. Anyway, that's what that pose makes me think of.

Also: thanks for a great post!
Raul Gallegos
27. Master_Asmodean
Another great re-read post, Leigh. Slow chapters over all, but they shed some mild amusement. This whole bit about Elayne yelling like that at Merilille is utterly un-princess like. Just shows how Elayne can be immature at times. She's still one of my favs, but I don't care for her when she behaves like this. Spanking time perhaps??? JK. Also, the arguments over who is to take charge of Ispan seems like a pissing contest and got old rather fast. Have a great weekend all.
Karen Fox
28. thepupxpert
The yoga pose scenario is not completely accurate either as I was taught that it is the thumb and third finger only, palms up on your knees. The re-read mentions thumb against the tips of the two middle fingers.
Mikey Bennett
29. EvilMonkey
I know what you all are thinking, Evil Monkey where ya been??? Just completed a massive move is the answer and I'm happy to be back. Painful painful chapters. Sea Folk, annoyingly bad. SuperGirls, out of their depth. The Kin, useless fluttering windsocks. And the elder Aes Sedai? By undermining their supposed leaders at every step of the journey they put a black eye on the rep of all Aes Sedai. Not good at all with the Sea Folk just looking for a reason to look down on them.

@15 Megaduck
Thom did teach Elaine some important stuff Regarding the Game of Houses when they were still together. Some of the stuff she already knew from her mother he actually expanded on and fine tuned her knowledge. I kinda got the impression that she would not have won the day for the succession had she not gotten some of the advice from Thom and taken it to heart.
30. Lsana
@25 Seamus1602,

I may be wrong, due to the fact that I try to purge everything about the Bowl storyline from my mind as quickly as possible, but I seem to recall that they needed a larger circle to work the Bowl than just El and Ny's party. They still could have threatened to pull out and just delayed using the Bowl until they gated back to Eg and crew, but there was some logic behind their asking the Sea Folk at least.
Birgit F
31. birgit
The angreal's hand position is a mudra, probably pushan mudra

Mikey Bennett
32. EvilMonkey
@25 Seamus1602

They definetely needed the Sea Folk to do these weaves. They have the weather expertise, can do things with the weather that could only be done using a ter'angreal in the age of legends, they had it studied, and of course time was of the essence. They could not afford to let an Aes Sedai "figure it out" when they had subject matter experts available. But I will say they had a great bargaining position that they squandered. Considering the terms of the agreement they royally screwed the pooch. I think in their defense though I do not believe they were prepared to bargain. In their mind the fate of the world is at stake and everyone should know that and have that foremost in their mind, not worrying about bargaining. They were caught off guard when they found the SF dont work like that, and SF pressed the advantage.
Remember, they tried to pull that same crap with Rand and he's their savior.

j p
33. sps49
Dislike the Sea Folk, like Elayne. Wordy. Realistic, sure, but real life isn't exciting; there is a distinct lack of fighting Forsaken.

Neck-kissing is teenage? Huh.

Goddam Careane.

And I was very suspicious of Vandene here, interfering with Elayne's interrogation like that.

The dull knife reminded me of the Magicians' knives in Master of the Five Magics; it was useless unless cutting magic demon-wrought cages that resisted more with cutting force. Dunno why it would affect Aviendha like that, though.

The hats obviously allow you to swap bodies with your arch-enemy. Or allow your brain to control a civilization. Or learn how to reconnect someone's brain back into his body.

chaplainchris @7-

I wish you wouldn't call it a "false" Taimandred theory, I still believe it was right at the time. The Careane/ Vandene stuff is correctly described.

Pattingale @12-

Ha! They also keep the Dark One(s) from detecting your thoughts!

Megaduck @15-

I think the Servants appelation is mostly an ego check. Most RL public servants don't act very much like they are.
Bonnie Andrews
34. misfortuona
Leigh great job again. Yes you managed to remind us all of the reasons we don't like these chapters but you did point out some highlights, so thanks.

First time through I always thought something really big was going to come from that knife, but so far it's sort of just been meh. Next two books maybe. During re-reads I decided that the reason Aviendha is so twitchy with this thing is that this is the first time she is aware of 'feeling' something from the angreal.
It would have been a Woa What Was That moment, and nobody else seems to be getting anything from it.
Anyway just my personal thoughts on the matter.

The Red-Rod was an AOL fantasy projector. Just thing what such an item now could to speed up internet connections everywhere.

I think I'll leave further discussion for the Inn incident.

Mis-what? We're all mostly-adults here.
Marcus W
35. toryx
I think they needed the Sea Folk to use the bowl too. However I don't think they needed them badly enough to settle for the Bargain that was reached. The ramifications of that piss-poor bargain are going to have an impact on the Tower for a long, long time and both Nynaeve and Elayne ought to face a great deal of penance for their part in it.
Thomas Keith
36. insectoid
Great post Leigh!

Ch. 3: I always found this chapter amusing, especially the bit where Aviendha pisses off the Sea Folk. ;D However...

The bargain: Boy, did they screw that up. "Scream" is a sore understatement; the other AS are going to have 9 kinds of cow when they hear about this!

Ch. 4:

Elayne's profanity: Still makes me chuckle, especially since she has no clue what they mean...

Careane: Now that we know she's BA, setting the farm off like that may have been deliberate; but if so, to what end? Since her ultimate intention was to off Ispan, creating confusion (as, say, a distraction) didn't work too well.

Ispan: Well, at least we know (sort of) why she won't reveal much information.

The *angreals: I'm fairly convinced that the dagger caused both Avi and Nyn to act oddly in the next chapter, though I wonder why. Perhaps we'll find out in the last 2 books? And yes, the Hot Rod; I think the Encyclopaedia-WoT describes it best. ::snicker::

sps49 @33:
The hats obviously allow you to swap bodies with your arch-enemy. Or allow your brain to control a civilization. Or learn how to reconnect someone's brain back into his body.
BAHAHAhahaha!! I remember that episode. ;)

Mis-naughty @34: ::snickers some more::

Gosh I'm wordy today! Must come from watching paint dry.

37. Beerwulf
toryx @ 35 - Agreed.
I can see Egwene trying to stare down the Sea Folk by saying that their agreement was with the Rebels, and she represents the Tower. She healed the split at the end of tGS from the Tower side, and forced the rebels to admit they were rebels.
Of course, that'd be way too easy for Randland (and more than a bit cheeky)
38. Auspicium
I assume Aviendha's reaction to the ter'angreal was the manifstation of her Talent; her head being filled with a certainty she didn't acquire from knowledge, combined with what it actually does, combined with that fact that were dealin' with the OP...

@25 Seamus1602,

El and Ny definitely needed the Windfinders' help. The weave for the Bowl is insanely complex, which Elayne even notes when it's being used; it's not like they just touch it with a flow of Water and we're done.
39. Lsana
@37 Beerwulf,

I've got to think that if Egwene tried that, it would completely destroy any chance of an association between the Windfinders and the White Tower.
Chin Bawambi
40. bawambi
looney theory time here: I'm taking R.Fife's/Birgit's description of the pose for the angreal (similar to my thoughts on first read) and running with it..

The angreal is for Rand - he will need it as the Dragon to perfect the song.
Jay Dauro
41. J.Dauro
Actually, I think that Mat will have to bargain the AS out of the dog's dinner that N&E got them into. Between the implication of the bargain he already made with the Seafolk, and his greatly improved status after he frees the Windfinders, he can do it. Which will put the SGs much into his debt.
42. earlgrey
Which they may or may not grudgingly acknowledge.
James Jones
43. jamesedjones
39 Lsana
I've got to think that if Egwene tried that, it would completely destroy any chance of an association between the Windfinders and the White Tower.
Aaaaannnd this is a bad thing?
Vincent Lane
44. Aegnor

I talked to my brother about the traveling people when I was visiting him in Ireland several years back. He said that they will set up on some farmer's land, and then will go to the landowner and demand money to leave. If the owner refuses, then they stay there, trash the place, block entrances and such, until eventually the land owner will give in and pay them off to leave. The laws protect the Travelers, so the landowners don't have much recourse, other than to just pay up.
45. Lsana
@43 jamesedjones,

It's contrary to Egwene's stated goals at any rate.
James Hogan
46. Sonofthunder
Thanks for making these chapters bearable, Leigh! Actually, they're not that bad...just the fact that they have the Seafolk...and the Kin...but we get a fun Elayne POV, so it's all good. I actually usually like Elayne's POV a that weird?

I love the fact that Avi is girl-talking it up with Elayne about Rand - awkward much? Even though the neck-kissing comment made me smile.

And the bargain...*groan* I seriously have no idea how they made the WORST BARGAIN OF ALL TIME, but I'd hazard a guess that EvilMonkey @32 is correct - they just totally weren't ready for serious-bargain-time. They just thought, "Alright, we got to save the world, y'all. You dig?" And the the Seafolk are like, "Sure thing, as long as you let us kick you around whenever we want, 'k?" And then the girls are like, "'k, deal!"

Moments later, as Nynaeve is throwing up over the boatside, Elayne says, "Wait...what did we just agree to?" and realizes that being the Daughter-Heir of Andor just means she's a fatter target for the Seafolk to con. At least she didn't give up Andor-land in perpetuity to Seafolk for basically nothing! Right? Right??? Oh. Wait...

Seriously, though. *shakes head sadly* I *headdesk* every time we get Nynaeve giving lessons later on and Nynaeve, usually so sensible(at least when it comes to her freedom), AGREES to Seafolk's teacher ranks/roles and the humiliation that it comes with. WHAT.

Ok, I'm calmed down now. I think.
Karen Fox
47. thepupxpert
Aegnor @ 44 - Interesting point of view. My best friend grew up in Ireland, she's actually back there now visiting her parents. I'll ask her what her thoughts are when she gets back and get back to the group.
Chin Bawambi
48. bawambi
I refer you to Scott Ripley's very convienient Ferengi laws of acquistion page - just in case you don't remember in my mind Sea Folk = Ferengi

144. There's nothing wrong with long as it winds up in your pocket.

Sums up the BoTW saga perfectly to me...
49. Ouroboros
The only redeaming thing about these two chapters is that the something which happens is now two chapters closer.

It still makes me grind my teeth that the Girls can't understand why people don't treat them like Ais Sedai. They don't look, act, or think the part, so why should people think that they are.

rosetintdworld @2

"I think that if you have this in your possession, the Shadow cannot see you. Not the Eyeless or the Shadowtwisted, maybe not even Leafblighter." (KoD Ch.15)

I'm wondering if it even works in Shayol Ghul. That could make things interesting.

chaplainchris @7

Careane maybe being nice to Mellar to cover herself in the event of Mellar's discovery. Sareitha is probably just being stupid in liking someone that everyone else doesn't. After all, Egwene liked Halima. In the grand scheme of things, I can't say that I give a dam. There are far bigger fish to fry than a side-tracking who-done-it. Just tell me who killed Asmodean! Oh, and rescue Moirain while your at it.

Megaduck @15

This is Elayne and Nyneave's fault. They treated Tom and Julan like footstools for most of the time and dismissed most of there advice out of hand because it came from MEN, and what do they know. That's what puts my teeth on edge.

Seamus1602 @25

Egwene told the Girls not to return to the camp until the problem of Nicola revealing that they had been pretending to be Ais Sedai had been resolved. They needed to use the bowl quickly so they tried to get the SF to help them.

That said, it was a disgracefully bad piece of bargaining. They had an artifact which was of obvious importance to the SF. (one of the Wind Finders gives that away) which gave them a massively strong hand, and they still come out with a dreadful deal. "You want the bowl, help us to use it. No? Okay, we'll be leaving then!" I really hope that we get to see this particular bird come home to roost.

Oh, and about the "hot-rod", no fan fic please. No really, no fan fic please.
50. iamnotspam
Hmm she (Careane) had a dogs mess out of trying to get to Ispan with that many Kin around her. This move though even though the full extent may have not been planned moved Ispan back into AS possesion. Now Careane would have fewer people and more trusting ones to deal with in her plans.
Karen Fox
51. thepupxpert
bawambi @ 48 - I didn't know the Ferenghi laws were written down somewhere, can you post the link where I can get a copy? They are great!
Bonnie Andrews
52. misfortuona
Okay, I'm making a plea for help. Some time ago, out dear friend Cumadin (who has disappeared for some reason) introduced some of us to the wonderful world of Gabbly Chat. That meant that we could discuss the world outside of WoT real time. It has been a lot of fun for those of us who use it regularly, but the thing is that Gabbly has been Mostly Dead, for over a week now and we're beginning to suffer from withdrawals.
So now that you've heard my sob-story here's my question. Do any of you know a reliable forum that we could use for real time conversations?

Vincent Lane
53. Aegnor
The bargain they made was horrible. It is true that they had to have the SF help to use the bowl effectively. Moridin mentions that there were devices in the AoL that could affect the weather, but just one device would just affect it in a regional sense. But then he mentions that the SF seem to be able to affect the weather to an extent that should have required one of the AoL devices. So he worries about what the SF could do with their knowledge and the bowl.

But what is skipped over is the fact that the SF really wanted the bowl. N&E I guess just decided that since they needed the SF, they had to give them whatever they wanted. When in reality the SF were in just the same position. All they would have had to do is say, "Sorry, there is no way we can accept those demands. Unfortunately we have to go now. We'll be leaving with the bowl (once we find it of course)." The SF would have been backpedaling immediately.

The only thing they should have offered, is the bowl itself. You help us work the bowl to fix the weather, and you can keep the bowl. End of deal.
Marcus W
54. toryx
I don't think that Careane exposed herself (heh) in order to seize a moment to kill Ispan. She just did it to create a chaotic moment and perhaps delay the use of the Bowl of the Winds. Anything that would slow or block Elayne and Nynaeve's progress would be of worth to her, no matter how temporary.

If it hadn't been for Alise being so calm, rational, and capable, who knows what might have come of the chaos?
Roberto Burtoni
55. MadCardigan
I know poor communication and misunderstanding between everyone is an underlying topic throughout the series, but there are a few leaps Jordan made that I find absurd - the intentional lack of contextual understanding would be one. I dont mind the differences and cultural divides that pop up when new cultures interact or when people first come together. I get it, they find one another baffling. But this meme is trotted out all the time when dealing with simple COMPREHENSION skills.

The idea that Elayne (who is considered intelligent...well can we just go with not really, really stupid) swears in this chapter but thinks to herself she doesnt know what any of the epithets she used actually mean. This is simply impossible to believe. Mostly because in common speech, epithets are used contextually to denote strong emotion like anger, disgust, surprise, etc. Rarely does it matter what the words you are saying actually mean, because the emotional context is all that matters. This trips up many people trying to learn a foreign language, but the only foreign language in WOT is the old tongue...which Elayne actually knows!

She has heard all of these used in context. She will use these in context going forward. This is not believable enough for it to even be anything other than cringe-worthy.

Theory: Elayne would suck at the SAT's analogies section.
Proof: Cold as hell:rude as Summer Ham:poor attempt at humor.

For another day - the inability to comprehend (not agree with but understand cause and effect) another culture's basic things, such as humor. Funny at first. Beaten to death by the 3,000,000th word.
Jacy Clark
56. Amalisa
Thanks, Leigh... as always!

Back in the day, when I was active in a fan fiction website, there was another member who hated what he called "travelogues". His strength was characterization and intrigue, and he felt that anything else was a waste of time. His critiques of anything that had more than one or two paragraphs dedicated to going between points A and B were scathing, to say the least. For some reason, whenever I read these two chapters, I think of him and consider how much damage he must have done to his dental work while plowing through the very detailed account of the ride to the Farm.

"Travelogues", on the other hand, were my specialty. Even so, I will admit that these two chapters do put some strain on my (admittedly) Pollyanna-ish approach to everything and (almost) everyone in the books. Not saying that I didn't enjoy them, because I did. Just not as much as others. Although, as always, I'm captivated by RJ's ability to "paint" word pictures. Even something as commonplace as searching through the contents of the panniers, using the stone cover of a cistern as a sorting table, in a dusty farmyard, with the sun beating down... well, I can see it clearly, and I like it.

The questioning of Ispan... When I first read this, I became suspicious of the Twins. Then, when Adeleas was murdered, I was really suspicious of Vandene. (This was compounded by a concurrent reading of an old Victoria Holt novel about twin sisters - one murdered the other and assumed the dead sister's life. Yes, yes... I know...)

The Sea Folk... here's the thing that annoys me with them. When we first met them way back in TSR, they were awesome. Cautiously good natured, noble, accomodating and, generally, quite admirable. Then they underwent this radical sea-change (no pun intended) and became the haughty, arrogant, my-way-or-the-highway harridans that set most folk's teeth on edge. So maybe Nynaeve and Elayne met the only shipload of "nice" Sea Folk when leaving Tear? I don't know. For the most part, I admire their culture, their even-handedness when it comes to alternating public/private command, and all that. But the individuals - especially those in command - have attained an almost caricature-esque quality, and that bothers me. I really hope to see some kind of characterization redemption at some point. (Even so, I loved the exchange between Nynaeve and Merlille regarding Healing the Sea Folk's saddle-soreness if asked. Politely.) That said, frustrating as the Sea Folk are, their presence and experience with weather flows is necessary to make the Bowl of Winds work, so...

Anyway, the two weakest chapters (in my opinion) are now behind us. On to more exciting stuff!
57. alreadymadwithswearing
I'd agree with MadCardigan. Profanities are usually the first words you learn in a language. How many in this forum can swear in spanish and italian? And speak not much else?

Elayne and Nynaeve.. yep, they really screwed up the bargain. I figured that's what comes of trying to bully the bullies in their own homecourt. And trying to overreach. We know that one of the supergirls long term goals is to connect the various channeling groups. But they didn't have to push for it right away. It could have been a bargain for another time. When the Sea Folk ask for it.
Vincent Lane
58. Aegnor

Regarding the curses, that is fairly accurate. I used to have a co-worker that was French Canadian. Apparently their curse words are all basic religious words/items. Words like tabernacle, chalice, etc. They are apparently very bad curse words.
Marcus W
59. toryx
MadCardigan @ 55:
The idea that Elayne (who is considered intelligent...well can we just go with not really, really stupid) swears in this chapter but thinks to herself she doesnt know what any of the epithets she used actually mean. This is simply impossible to believe.

I disagree. I was raised in a fairly restricted, Christian environment and a lot of the curse words that most kids used on a day to day basis were meaningless to me. Being fairly self-righteous about the whole thing, I didn't take up swearing until the end of my teens and when I did I still didn't know what I was saying when it came to some of the more colorful terms.

Elayne was far more sheltered than I and the curses are far more elaborate than our modern terms. I don't find her ignorance impossible at all.

Edit to add: Alreadymad @ 57: Hell, there are some Spanish and Italian curses that I know (and enjoy) that I still don't know the meaning of. They sure roll off the tongue awfully well though.
Robert Smith
60. Seraphkin
I tried to post this earlier, but it seems like it got lost. Anyway:

@25 seamus1602: Because of Nicola's blackmail scheme, Egwene had told Elayne and Nynaeve to stay away from the SAS until she told them it was safe to come back. Since they didn't know about the Kin, yet, and wanted to use the Bowl as quick as possible, they decided to use Sea Folk windfinders to get the circle up to 13.

It isn't until later that they discover that without the windfinders they never would have been able to use the bowl in the first place, especially because they have a windfinder who made a specific study of the BotW and how to use it. Seems like another case of the pattern weaving out what it needs before it is even known it is needed.

As for why they didn't walk away from the bargain, in ch. 27 Merana tells how during her bargain with the Sea Folk, she was shielded and basically kept a prisoner on the ship until they worked out a bargain that was satisfactory to the Sea Folk. It's never explicitly stated, but I believe something similar would've happened with Elayne and Nynaeve if they had tried to walk away.
61. AlfredTungstan
Just had to make a comment about the woman angreal found. Maybe it is just me but the hand raised with just the first two fingers raised always made me think of a peace sign. Can't you just picture it. A little figurine of a hippie chick from the '60's, sitting doing yoga giving the peace sign with an expression of inner peace and happiness on her face. Sounds like a personal item to me. In fact, it sounds like a personal memory of the authors. He did live through the '60's afterall.
Karen Fox
62. thepupxpert
toryx @ 59 - I agree about the swearing, my 11 year old is always asking what does this mean or what does that mean, or sometimes he will say something (not even necessarily swearing) and I'll say "do you know what that means?" and he'll answer "No" so I'll say something sage like "well you need to know what it is you're saying so you know what you're saying." I'll always feel a bit warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I was able to assist in his education - even if it is in the swearing department :) But better he get it from the source is all I'm sayin'...
Roberto Burtoni
63. MadCardigan
@59 Toryx The issue I have is not that she does not understand what the words, on a literal basis means. She is implying she doesnt know what the turn of phrase means. For example, saying "crap" as in bad when you actually mean to say "damn it" as in I am annoyed with you; although crap would also kinda work in the second context.

The point is that such turns of phrase are not usually literal translations. It doesnt matter what the literal meaning is, and one doesnt care because in this case summer ham means damn it or crap etc. not what it literally is.
Jay Dauro
64. J.Dauro
I would say that if you have no experience in bargaining, you can always be taken advantage of by someone that does have experience.

And Elayne is aware that compared to the Seafolk she has no knowledge of Weather Manipulation. So I think she felt they had to have help. Neither expected to bargain, and both felt from their previous experience that this would be a piece of cake. Boy were they wrong.
Roberto Burtoni
65. MadCardigan
@62 thepupxpert Well at least we agree that Elayne in this section rate a high 11 years on her language comprehension
Maiane Bakroeva
66. Isilel
Yes the Bargain, eh. Seriously undermines Elayne's qualifications as a ruler, because this falls squarely into political horse-trading/diplomacy territory.
And to think, that after all the suffering, the Bowl actually doesn't solve anything, because the things don't grow anyway due to Rand being screwed up and stuff! And all the DO-induced blights, too. Major, major waste of time, IMHO.

Also, the Seafolk are utterly unbelievable as traders - who'd want to deal with them unless under extreme duress? Good traders make their victims, eh clients feel good about the deal and want to come back for more.

The only small saving grace of these chapters is that Vandene and Adeleas become kind of competent and likeable again. I really liked them when they were first introduced in TGH, but when they re-appeared in LoC they were hit with the blanket idiot stick along with the rest of the AS, so it is a relief to see them recover somewhat. Oh, and I never suspected them, because if they had been BA, Moiraine wouldn't have left their home alive.

And since I didn't manage to come to it in the last thread - I really hope that Martine/Setalle gets Healed by Flynn, or maybe by Flynn and Nyn (or Sumeko?)working together, if her case is more difficult than a stilling.
Elayne is out of ter'angreal business for good because of pregnancy and kingdom and somebody competent needs to take over.

Also, IMHO it is much more plausible that the AS fears re: OP and ter'angreal experimentation are exaggerated because the BA often used it as cover-ups for removal of inconvenient people, than that there is suddenly a whole horde of folks to whom the risks don't apply.
IMHO, Martine didn't make a mistake, but was set-up. And, baselessly, I think that she was Verin's victim, an assignment Verin couldn't wriggle out of.
Jason German
67. illian
Hmm, I wonder if "summer ham" is supposed to mean "rotten pig"?
68. Lsana
@66 Isilel,

I don't think we have to assume that there are "a whole horde of people" to whom the risks don't apply. Among the good guys, only Elayne really fools around with ter'angreal, and one could argue that she's been lucky so far. After all, Martine wasn't hurt for years studying ter'angreal...until she was.

It also seems like stilling Martine and erasing her memory is more complicated and risky than just killing her. I don't know why the BA would do that.

Also, a small quibble with your post: I'm not sure Verin ever tried to "wiggle out" of any assignments. My guess is that she took on as many as she could, since that would be the easiest way to work her way up the hierarchy and meet as many Black sisters as she could.
Captain Hammer
69. Randalator

As to Elayne’s (tentative) claim that none of the other Aes Sedai would have fared any better with the bargaining, I can’t decide whether she’s kidding herself or not. Going by Merana and Rafela’s results in their bargain on Rand’s behalf, I come up with a solid “Um”. I guess it depends on whether you think the terms Merana obtained are better than Elayne’s, or not.

I think it also depends on the positions they started in. ElayNyn started with "Y'know we got this AoL weather-thingy, which we're sure could probably maybe fix the weather and we thought, like, your Windfinders are, like, totally radical with this weather stuff and stuff. So, y'know, maybe you could, like, help us make this weather-thingy do That'd be way cool."

At which point you could hear a loud *ka-ching* and see the Randland equivalent of $$-signs appearing in the eyes of the Sea Folk bargainers. There might also have been some cats-looking-at-mice imagery.

Rand's pet Aes Sedai, on the other hand, hadn't even begun to bargain, when the Sea Folk had already been ta'veren-ed into agreeing to serve Rand and blurting out that they desperately needed this agreement. That's quite the powerful position in negotiations.

In the end, the girls started with zero leverage and got their asses handed to them quite thoroughly. Maybe even literally, as in "You know, keep these. We're feeling generous today.". The professional Aes Sedai negotiators started with a LOT more leverage and, while they managed to keep their asses out of the bargain, still ended up with a beautifully executed kick in Rand's balls.

So in this case, I guess Elayne might be right...

Lsana @14

What does the "hot rod" do? I'm afraid I have no memory of it whatsoever.

That's what Elayne said... *snicker*
Roger Powell
70. forkroot
Also, a small quibble with your post: I'm not sure Verin ever tried to "wiggle out" of any assignments.

I'm afraid you mis-quoted Isilel.

For the record, Verin may or may not have tried to "wriggle out" of assignments, but I think that Berelain would be a better choice for someone to "wiggle out".

::winks and leers::
71. Lsana
@70 forkroot,

I seem to be putting my foot in it quite a bit today.
Tina A
72. Tinaa
Possibly Lsana, but my, it's fun to read!
Karen Fox
73. thepupxpert
MadCardigan @65 - re my son being 11: they are not too far apart in age, I think Elayne is supposed to be 18 at this point? So yes, being that she was raised in a sheltered environment and has only had the last 2 years to really pick up on things, I would say a projected age of 11 is about right.
Karen Fox
74. thepupxpert
forkroot @ 70 - I think the correct term to describe Berelaine was "swaying", just finished reading TDR and about half way through TSR, and somewhere in between Faile and Berelaine have their fight, and even as she was hurrying back to her rooms there was a Faile POV of her swaying. I always had a mental thought of her "jiggling" but now I find that was not quite correct...
Marcus W
75. toryx
Seraphkin @ 60:
As for why they didn't walk away from the bargain, in ch. 27 Merana tells how during her bargain with the Sea Folk, she was shielded and basically kept a prisoner on the ship until they worked out a bargain that was satisfactory to the Sea Folk.
I can't believe that anyone would uphold a bargain given under such duress. I'd have thought that if the Sea Folk were that blatant in their bargaining tactics, no one would bargain with them at all for anything, much less hold up their end of the bargains.

Randalator @ 69:

I don't know, I can't think of a single thing that Rand had to give up that even comes close to comparing to the 20 Aes Sedai teaching Windfinders whatever they want to know for as long as they want.

Nynaeve and Elayne did have something the Seafolk wanted very badly. The lack of advantage there was their complete lack of awareness of how to bargain for it. Frankly, Elayne has no excuse. You'd figure, after all that time she spent with the seafolk on the ship to Tanchico, that she'd have learned a little something more about their culture and bargaining position than just the matter of how to wield larger flows of Air. If Egwene had been with them, she'd have not only left the ship with a bunch of new piercings, she'd have been the premiere bargainer Aes Sedai and probably could have introduced a new color to replace the Reds based on that alone.
Linda Taglieri
76. Linda
My theory on the blunt dagger is that Rand will use it when he goes to confront the Dark One: Shelter From The Shadow.

What Elayne and Nynaeve paid heavily for - and it was worth it - was the Sea Folk knowledge of how to use the Bowl of Winds. It took Caire two to three hours of precise and intricate weaving with a very powerful circle to restore the seasons with the Bowl of Winds. And it was her achievement; not Elayne's or Nynaeve's. Elayne's comment that just as well she didn't try to do it is a gross understatement. However I think she was correct in estimating that Caire's knowledge came from years of study (of Sea Folk records). Considering that Caire obviously could never have tried these weaves out before, not having access to the ter'angreal she did marvellously well.

Should the Sea Folk have done this for free bearing in mind their benefit and the whole world's benefit? Well for one thing it's a cultural thing and for another they would pretty much sacrifice their position on any future bargains with everybody if they gave a freebie on this scale.

I will only add that in the real world many societies - and not 'foreign' ones either - expect people to pay for all services, including ones that are desperately needed, and think they are right in insisting on this.

Nynaeve's and Elayne's fault was bargaining too soon - before they actually had the Bowl. Had they waited, they could have used the Sea Folk's greed for the Bowl to better effect.
Vincent Lane
77. Aegnor

It isn't that the SF should be expected to give them a freebie. A reasonable bargain would be, "Help us with this, and we'll give you the bowl." It is an immensely valuable artifact, that they desperately wanted. There was absolutely no need to offer them anything else in addition to that.
Marcus W
78. toryx
Oh, and by the way, Happy Beltaine (Bel Tine) everybody!
79. alreadymadwithtradeoff
Seraphkin @60
Merana was a middle strength Aes Sedai on a Sea Folk ship where the Windfinders already knew how to link and shield. Elayne and Nynaeve together or individually could overpower anyone on that Windfinder ship they got on. Frankly, Elayne totally underestimated how badly the Sea Folk wanted the Bowl and did not realize letting them keep it was already a huge incentive on their part. She probably thought trading Aes Sedai knowledge for knowledge of using the Bowl was a fair trade.

thepupexpert @74
I think most of these perspectives of Berelain are from behind. You wouldn't see much jiggling that way. If you were looking at her from the front....
80. Seamus1602
@all who insist SF were necessary for BotW usage:

I'm still not convinced the SF were necessary yo use the bowl. I understand the argument about needing a full circle and not coming back to SAS until Nicola situation is resolved, but...

1. There is no proof that the Bowl was used correctly by the Sea Folk. The extreme weather results of using the bowl on that scale may or may not have been avoided by someone else leading the circle. Romanda certainy believes that AS already had knowledge of the necessary weavings. Which doesn't make her right, but is something.

2. They still could hae sent other AS back to the SAS with the bowl to use. Like send Merilille back with the bowl.

In the end, it still comesdown for me to the fact that E and N bargained for something it hadn't and still hasn't been established they actually needed. And they paid an exorbitant price for it. They could have and should have walked away. And, if they were held like Merana (which, how?, with 3 powerful channellers and a Warder?) then any agreement would be void due to coercion, anyways (same as kneeling to Rand, except they haven't done all the pre-work for Compulsion by swearing to tell no lie on the Oath Rod).

The only established reason, IMO, to recruit the SF was the 'full circle' argument, which only holds water if they have no creative thinking power at all. I guess I'm just frustrated that 2 characters I like acted like fairly stupid children and gave us the SF acting like complete assholes for the remainder of the story. I've always wished that Rand had found out about it and made one of the conditions of his Bargain that all current and past agreements with Aes Sedai were void. Now tat would have been good ending to this episode, just so we didn't hae to put up with the SF and their 'contributions' to the Andor Succession storyline.
Tricia Irish
81. Tektonica

IMHO, Martine didn't make a mistake, but was set-up. And, baselessly, I think that she was Verin's victim, an assignment Verin couldn't wriggle out of.

Conservation of important characters would make this a nice fit.

Randalator@69: They did have leverage...they had the BotW, which the Seafolk wanted desperately. If SGs didn't know that, they should've inferred it, as they have "Windfinders" who work the weather and the SF practically drooled on themselves when the SGs mentioned the bowl.

Linda@76: You are right...they should've waited until they had the bowl in hand to bargain. And Aes Sedai knowledge might be a fair trade, but not necessarily forever and with the SF's rules all the time. Not a great bargain.
stephanie keenan
82. adriel_moonstar
"Summer Ham?" It does seem like a very strange insult, but I suspect that, like most of Jordan's other curses and insults, it is meant to remind us that our characters are from a differnt culture than our own.

I recall boys in my middle school french class calling each other "Les cochans" (Sorry if my spelling is off-french for pigs). The teacher was absolutely furious and told us that in french calling someone a pig was a much worse insult than it would be in english. (So, you know a cultural thing...)

Seamus1602 @80 Yes the Bargain was terrible, but have you read the description of the weaves they used, NO ONE was going to come up with that by trial and error! (And if Romanda knew what the Bowl was and how to use it...then she should have voluteered that information BEFORE Egwene sent Elayne and Nyn out to look for it. As I recall the entire Hall pooh-poohed the whole thing.)
Linda Taglieri
83. Linda
@82 Romanda's comment was ludicrous. The very fact she criticised the way the weather changed shows she had no idea of how it was done. This is shades of Aes Sedai thinking that once they know of the existence of Tel'aran'rhiod actually using it will be a piece of cake. And as the Wise Ones said, making fools of themselves every time.
Captain Hammer
84. Randalator
Seamus1602 @80

There is no proof that the Bowl was used correctly by the Sea Folk. The extreme weather results of using the bowl on that scale may or may not have been avoided by someone else leading the circle. Romanda certainy believes that AS already had knowledge of the necessary weavings. Which doesn't make her right, but is something.

Technically, the Bowl was not used correctly by the Sea Folk. RJ explained that the Bowl had originally been designed to affect only the weather patterns of a small region but the Sea Folk with their advanced knowledge used it to change the weather on a global scale. That's what caused the One Power weirdness around Ebou Dar and along the spokes of the weave the Bowl created. The extreme weather conditions are not mentioned but were most likely just an effect of the weather "snapping back into place".


That explanation also proves that the Aes Sedai could not have achieved the same results because they lack the necessary skills. Romanda just displays another case of standard issue Aes Sedai arrogance and hubris...
Ron Garrison
85. Man-0-Manetheran

Thanks for the link to "Shelter From The Shadow" and your theory on the blunt dagger. I had this thought and am feeling quite stupid right now because I can't remember. Just what is the Knife of Dreams referred to in the title of the book? You'll probably tell me the obvious answer and I'll be slapping my forehead, but the thought I had was: the Knife of Dreams is the blunt dagger, and Rand will use it in TAR to fight the Last Battle.
John Massey
86. subwoofer
Whew! Late to the party again I see- well Insectoid, you are not the only one doing renos- the Elayne chapter will come just in time as I am mounting mirrors on my ceiling:P

Ahem... anyways, I see Ispan is still alive... Wha? Perhaps I didn't clearly outline my "kill them first, question the corpse" plan. Sigh.

The hats- am I the only one in the galaxy that came up with thismental image?

The Seafolk- well I don't know that they are all bad, annoying yes, but bad, meh. For me I do like that the highest can be brought low and the lowest can rise through the ranks. Gives me a sense of equality and accountability. But yea, Elayne and Ny pooched the deal, what was it that Ouro called them- ah- two dopey Andorans. Seems to fit the bill.

OTOH I do know that personally I suck at haggling in some cases. My wife can pinch change out of a penny, and she makes money hand over fist. When we went to a bazaar and had to buy stuff I asked how much, they gave me a price and I said "oki doki". My wife was aghast at this and insisted I go back and argue some more. I figured if she was so good, she should give 'er... and she did. I just feel guilty because I have everything I want and I am not going to quibble over a few bucks when that is as much as some folks make in a day. So I would probably get fleeced by the Sea Folk. By that same token, if I come with an agenda and I know a sales person is getting commission, I make them earn it. And if somebody pisses me off- then, if they get my coin, they really have to work.

The hand thingy sign...
... maybe it is just me again. meh. Very peaceful.

Elayne+ red rod= about the only fun thing she has done in the last little bit. I must admit that I like her putzing up. I mean, she flubs at cursing, her first time getting hammered was classic, her dressing up and her tightrope ability was comedic, and her and Avi, sharing Rand and the whole gobbling sweets line- in her own way, Elayne does provide some comic relief. At her own expense.

John Massey
87. subwoofer
Oh yeah, @Mis- I was all over Gably but my wife is displeased by the huge time sink that becomes. Most folks would complain, then argue, then threaten. My wife skips all that and goes straight for the bodily harm. Last go about she went right to the pummeling when she busted me with you guys. Either we do this in the dead of night when she is asleep, or I start blogging in armor.

88. AndrewB
I agree with Toryx @54 re Careane's failure to properly hide her face. I believe that there are 2 or 3 members farm-based Kin who are used in the TBoW circle.

Isilel @66: I disagree. I beleive Elayne has a great deal of knowledge with ter'angreal. She is the only person on the non-Seachan side of the ocean to make a ter'angreal since the Breaking. Her only problem is caution. Sometimes she thinks she is invincible. IMO, such mentality has more to do with her being ~ 18 years old than anything else. Those of us with who have not been teenagers/early 20's for a number of years may remember that feeling of invincibility. I know that at times I felt I could do no wrong. There are things I did back then that I would not do now.

As a card carrying member of the anti-Nynaeve club, these two chapters were painful for me. Nyn is being her annoying self (When she looks around during a calm moment and tells Elayne there is no problem; when she tells Lan to chase after all of the Kin who are running moving like Mydraals' (sp?) w/out a head.

If Nyn manages to survive the Last Battle (God hopes she does not) and the good guys win, I beleive that she will choose to live outside the WT away from most Aes Sedai. If she had to live in the WT, she would gather more enemies than the pied-piper gathered children. The only thing that could save her from a severe pennace would be Egwene's personal order of protection.

Thanks for reading my musings.
John Massey
89. subwoofer
Thanks for reminding me Andrew- yeah- Nynaeve-what gives? One stone faced man and she goes all loopy for the next few chapters. I guess she gets it out of her system later, when Lan is not under-foot but c'mon, is this the first time you've seen a guy? Geeze, it is like she is going through puberty right on the page.

John Massey
90. subwoofer
In 1960 she wrote her first Gothic romance under the name Victoria Holt


Alice Arneson
91. Wetlandernw
Okay, I'm going to post this without reading the rest of the comments, or it'll be 20 pages long and out of date besides. :0 I'll finish up the comments and... uh... comment on them in a bit.

Notes on the chapters...

I keep forgetting that they don't know yet that it's the Oath Rod that causes the ageless look; I did a double-take when Elayne pondered on why the Kin are so much older, but neither look it nor show the agelessness. Makes me wonder all over again, what will they do about it? And will they ever find out what the original use was? Maybe when they capture Mesaana...

Elayne & her choice phrases... "nobody ever wanted to explain what they meant exactly" LOL!! Oh, Elayne. *sigh* Oh, and was Careane's failure to hide her face just because she was Careane, or because she's BA? It may have been an attempt at exactly what almost happened: panic & pandemonium, which might have at least slowed down the Bowl usage thingy. Or it might have just been because she's arrogant and didn't bother.

It was... interesting... to have confirmation that not all of the Kin might be excited to go back to the Tower. (Actually, I don't suppose it's really confirmation per se; since I've read this book at least 5 times, maybe this is where I got the idea in the first place. Whatever. We were talking about it a couple of days ago, anyway.) I can never decide whether I like Alise or not. I appreciate her competence, but... her attitude gets kind of old after while. Not sure why she annoys me more than others, but she does. Maybe because the others who behave in a somewhat similar fashion have more credentials to back them up. ::ducks and runs for the bunker:: That one's going to get smart remarks...

Must admit I was purely amused by the Windfinders being saddlesore and Nynaeve telling Merilille "Then Heal them. If they ask. Politely." LOL!

You can do whatever you wish, child. So long as you’re willing to pay the price. I love that. I think our own society has gotten too far on the first sentence and left off the second too much, but that's JMO. Still, it's a fair rule to follow... so long as you're willing to pay the price. As a counterpoint, her reaction to what else Adeleas's & Vandene's shield might be blocking was rather revealing.

The ter'angreal review was fun. However, all the info known has already been listed in the comments, so... Oh well. Oh, except I didn't see anyone say this: according to the WoT Encyclopaedia, in the RPG "It creates visual and aural illusions, but if the user is unwary it may put her to sleep and broadcast her fantasies and dreams." For Elayne, that could be fairly blush-making...!

On the comments...

Lsana @14 - (also Leigh) Careane wouldn't have been planning to murder Adeleas specifically, at this point. When she pulled this trick, Ispan was still in the "possession" of the Kin. She might have left it alone, or perhaps helped her escape, if that had remained the case; when Vandene and Adeleas took over, the ante went up, particularly if Careane had any idea of how far those two might be willing to push the rules for a known BA. So her purpose here might have just been general chaos for the fun of it. Or whatever.

rosetintdworld @18 - Huh?? I quote:
...The heat of the rod made her think of Fire....

Blinking, she opened her eyes and sat up in the bed. Sunlight streamed in at the window. She was in her shift, and Nynaeve, fully dressed, stood frowning down at her. Aviendha and Birgitte were watching from beside the door.

"What happened?" Elayne demanded, and Nynaeve shook her head grimly.

"You don't want to know." Her lips twitched.

Aviendha's face gave away nothing. Birgitte's mouth might have been a little tight, but the strongest emotion Elayne felt from her was a combination of relief and - hilarity! The woman was doing her utmost not to roll on the floor laughing!

The worst of it was, no one would tell her what had happened. What she had said, or done; she was sure it was that, by the quickly hidden grins she saw....
Sorry, no "naked and sweaty and surrounded by people laughing at her" here. Or, for Vadik2 @20, "stripping naked." Many readers assume that Birgitte's remark about "getting drunk enough to take off my clothes and dance on the table" was a reference to what Elayne did here, but it's only an unverified assumption. All we know is that no one wanted to tell her, and it was obviously something that she'd find embarrassing and/or humiliating.

Master_Asmodean @27 - Also, the arguments over who is to take charge of Ispan seems like a pissing contest and got old rather fast. That's what Elayne thought too. :)

misfortuona @34 - I think you have a very good suggestion there, in that the reason Aviendha is so twitchy with this thing is that this is the first time she is aware of 'feeling' something from the angreal. She doesn't even realize for a couple more books that she has the Talent of reading ter'angreal, and up to this point she's only had contact with those already known (and explained) by others.

@various on the infamous Bargain, I have some faint hope that the Sea Folk will need to make a new Bargain with Egwene/the WT, and part of that bargain will mitigate the horrible effect of this one.... Might just be wishful thinking on my part, of course.

MadCardigan @55 - I disagree (strongly!) with your contention that "The idea that Elayne ... swears in this chapter but thinks to herself she doesnt know what any of the epithets she used actually mean. This is simply impossible to believe." It's not at all impossible to believe. I'm a reasonably intelligent human being, with degrees in both engineering and English, and there are plenty of epithets used in our society which, from context, I can only interpret as "intended to be insulting/derogatory/dirty/whatever," with no actual understanding of what it means that makes it so insulting/derogatory/dirty/whatever. I fully understand Elayne's position here, and find it totally believable.

Oh, and I had some of the highest SAT scores on record at my college of choice, according to the admissions office.

And what toryx said.

MadCardigan @ 63 - the point is NOT the literal meaning. The point is, what does "summer ham" as an insult imply. It's obviously intended to be insulting, but in what regard? Generally stinky? Okay, who cares. In its "culture of origin" it could mean any of a number of rather bizarre things, including several sexual implications which would probably embarrass Elayne no end if she actually knew that's what it meant. It's like a story I heard about someone who was in another country where he didn't speak the language, but saw a tshirt he thought looked cool. Didn't know what it said, actually, but bought and wore the shirt, and wondered why people looked at him so oddly. Found out later what it actually meant, and felt a complete fool. The fact that he didn't know what it meant didn't stop others from knowing, and being offended by it.

AlfredTungstan @61 - LOL!! The peace sign was my first thought too, though I didn't carry it quite to the "hippie chick..." scene. I will forever hold that visual when I read about this angreal. :)
Brandon D
92. Ishmayl
Jeez, no wonder I never reread this particular book. Four chapters and a prologue and not one damned thing of interest has happened (other than the mention of Satelle Anon (sp?))
Alice Arneson
93. Wetlandernw
Linda @76 - Nice analysis of the SeaFolk/Bowl situation. The idea that they could have used the Bowl with any success without the SeaFolk is pure wishful thinking, in my book.

@various, FWIW, I like what we learn of the Sea Folk culture and customs. Many of their ways are pretty cool and would be worth emulating. It's just the characters who do the power-hungry bit that are annoying. Jorin & co. were pretty cool, and I like Talaan and some of the more junior Windfinders. It's the ones at the top, or who think they have a shot at the top, who are so annoying. In their defense, however, it might have something to do with the fact that they are totally out of their element every time we see them, with only a few exceptions. There was the trip from Tear to Tanchico, when they were way cool, and a few scenes in Cairhien when they were at least on their ship but understandably frustrated by the way Rand ignored them for so long. (Of course, they didn't know that he spent a fair amount of that time in a box...) Otherwise, after we see them in the palace in Ebou Dar, they are completely land-bound, trailing after either Elayne or Rand. They are deprived of not only their natural environment, but also their vocation. Out of place and with nothing to do, knowing that bad things are happening to their people but unable to even communicate, much less help their people, and they are supposed to be holding positions of authority and responsibility... Hey, truth to tell, I don't think I'd be much fun to be around if I were in that situation. I'd probably even be annoying.

I just can't help playing DA, can I?

subwoofer @87 - blogging in armor... LOL!! There's a visual to keep me going for a while! Tell your lovely wife that we all need you to keep us from taking ourselves too seriously, and we all love her very much for loaning you to us for a few hours every day. ;)
Sharon E.
94. Sulin
Dang- late again! Meh, there's nothing much left that hasn't been said, so I'll just comment that there were enough funny bits (already mentioned) in these chapters to make them more enjoyable for me.

neck-kissing- that's teenager-y? :/

Also, for us noobs on here, can someone explain what this Gabbly is y'all keep talking about?
95. Freelancer
I absolutely do not hate these chapters. I think they fit the current state of the story just fine. I'm also not a John Woo fan. I'd rather watch K-Pax than Iron Man. There doesn't have to be high-tempo action on every page to be engaging. To say nothing happens here, well, let's just say that my thoughts on that would be considered judgemental, but it's judgemental to say nothing happened here, so there you are.




Since I'm already in the mood, why type something out, then follow it with (sp?), when discovering the correct spelling is at your fingertips? Inadvertent typos are human. Being uncertain of something, putting forth the effort to acknowledge same, but not spending the 15 seconds it would take to become certain, I don't get this.

There you go. Three of the more than a dozen sources of WoT information that keep you from guessing if you've spelled Setalle Anan correctly.
96. Dave10000
I think that the hand sign used by the angreal "hand was lifted, the first two fingers raised and the others folded." is simply a 'peace' sign.

Like this one:
97. OwMasha
Wetlander @93 - I'll take your devil's advocacy for the culture-shocked Sea Folk and raise you a "they're not dealing with business as usual, they're dealing with Aes Sedai- of COURSE they're off their heads!"

It's easy to forget that their custom for who-knows-how-long was to refuse to deal with AS in any way, because our first exposure as readers was during N&E's incredibly unusual voyage. I think the SF they dealt with weren't necessarily the nicest or the coolest - they were just surprised, therefore more willing to give ground. Uh, so to speak.

I get the impression that word gets around among the SF pretty quickly, and it seems likely that over the next four books a lot of different ships/officials/Windfinders/etc. were hearing about the ship that Broke The Rules by taking AS on, thereby revealing (unintentionally) that the SF have major saidar-fu... actually, how much have we heard about what happened to them? Point is, there may have been a pretty serious shake-up over it - offscreen - and it wouldn't be surprising that the next SF to meet with E&N would be ... oh, paranoid.

Sulin @94 - this would be a link to Gabbly if I could make links reliably ... sigh. Gabbly is a chat add-on, which we'd been using at this URL:
Sharon E.
98. Sulin
Thanks OwMasha, I'll go check it out.
Sharon E.
99. Sulin
Linda @ 76- I read the Shelter from the Shadow theory. Very interesting! I just love the 13th Dep, I've spent a lot of time there lately, pouring over the various postings. Kudos to you for an awesome site!
a a-p
100. lostinshadow
way too late to the party today, time difference plus work have kept me away.

before I start working again! on this fine sunny saturday morning...

re Elayne's cursing: others have said it by I need to chime in to say that actually to me it's very believable how Elayne doesn't really know what she's saying. That's how most kids learn to curse and of course she's older but she is a princess so I'm sure an effort was made to speak properly within her hearing.

Also, there is a minor distinction to be made here regarding cursing and the art of the insult. Here in the Mediterranean we enjoy cursing but it's the art of the insult that is much more challenging and to be good at that you do need to be aware of cultural cues because the insult is not in the curse word but in the implied insult. So very easy to be in position where you know from tone and context that some kind of insult has been delivered but not really sure what it means or why it is even an insult.

Oh and for those of you who like to learn curse words in languages you don't actually speak... be forewarned those of who speak more exotic languages occasionally enjoy having fun at your expense and not really 'translating' some of those curse words properly. (always double check with other parties before actually trying out foreign curse words with someone)

regarding the bargain: not sure anyone but a t'avern or proper merchant used to dealing with Windfinders could have got a better bargain.

the problem with bargaining with a person who holds a monopoly on what you want is that if they sense that you can't afford to walk away and they are a good bargainer, you will be lucky if you walk away with the clothes on your back.

granted Elayne and Nyn should have been in possession of the bowl and tried to walk away at some point but the problem is in a bargaining session you can't just walk away or threaten it at any random time.

You have to get your timing right and the other party has to know you are dead serious, that you really really mean it for it to work. When you want to save the world and the other party is the only one who can help you do it, you need to have (pardon the expression but) balls of steel (I know we tried to come up with a female equivalent to this in a much earlier thread but I don't think we were too successful) to carry off the believable 'let the world burn then' walkaway.

and Wetlandernw some great points explaining extreme harridan level of Windfinders.

right off to work with me.
Thomas Keith
101. insectoid
Happy May Day/Beltane to all who celebrate. I'll be celebrating by re-routing cables! (Sounds like fun, right? ::foolish grin::)

Pup @51: The Memory Alpha wiki has full lists (official, unofficial, and non-canon) of the Rules of Acquisition. (Actually the first time I've visited that site! Been a while since I delved into Trek much.)

Mis-pleading @52: Hmm. I logged on to Gabbly just now and nothing seems wrong. Did I miss something? (Didn't miss the PB ref though!) As for other reliable online chats, that is not my area of expertise; Gabbly is the only one I have ever used aside from Live Messenger.

Fork @70: LOL!!

Sub @86: Yes;)

Dave10000 @96: That's what I pictured it as, too.

Re: Elayne's cursing... Lost @100 brought to my mind the late George Carlin's thoughts on the subject:
"Nobody gives you a list—you have to say them to find out what they are!"

Chin Bawambi
102. bawambi
@pup51 I will say that insectoid's link seems to be better than mine but..

Also, Carlin FTW!

RE: Elayne and Nyn's bargaining skills (actually almost all AS so far - don't forget Samitsu/Flynn) - In the poker world they are known as whales.
diane heath
103. jadelollipop
@93 The DA comment I thought was District Attorney :)
Re: these chapters I got nothing. I am in TSR and the SF just brought E&N to Tanchico.
Wesley Parish
104. Aladdin_Sane
Summer ham - I suddenly remembered that ham used to be a staple part of the diet of the peasantry in Europe for the winter months. That's why it's cured - so it can be stored and eaten as needed. Summer ham - ham well past its "use-by-date", ham out of season, ham that wasn't or couldn't be eaten during the winter ... someone who's used up their social and personal credit, overdrawn on the tolerance bank, someone who's failed their politeness test ...

Elayne's cursing ... hija de puta y de reina!!! I think I'll pass on that ...

144. There's nothing wrong with long as it winds up in your pocket.

Describes most of what passes for "foreign aid" quite accurately ... "I give you, out of the generosity of my heart, all this money to build a dam, or whatever, as long as you spend it on good and services from my country, and no one else's, understand ..."
Wesley Parish
105. Aladdin_Sane
Projected use for the red rod - hand it around the Aes Sedai suspected of being Black Ajah - if their dreams are as malicious as those of a couple of not much lamented Darkfriends of distant memory, Hadnan Kadere and Isendre, they will betray themselves, and people won't be laughing, they'll be retching.
a a-p
106. lostinshadow
@104 - IMHO that's the best explanation for summer ham yet!
107. MasterAlThor

As always thank you for doing this. We all appreciate this. Great job.

And now since I am late to the party, let's get it on.....errr I mean let's do this.

No Hot Rod references at all.....none.

Ok let's just start with that.

The Hot-Rod

There are several jokes that come to mind. I say no touchy, no touchy.

Like Ouroboros if you don't touch we don't get to see. So don't touch. Let me make that bigger...


The Deal,


That is what youth gets you. Mistakes. The fact that Nynaeve was part of this makes it all the more funny.

I would like to take this moment to welocme brother AndrewB to G.R.O.A.N. here is your lifetime membership card.

Sub, Two Dopey Andoran's sounds like a rap group. Whens the new album coming out???

Sea Folk,

Ok it is offical, I am sending off my application to attend the Wetlander School of DA for my post grad studies. I need all of you guys prayers for me to get accepted to this prodigous school.

Also Wetlander@91 Amen sister, I say can we get an Amen. How do we think that we can do anything and then not have to pay for it?

Other Musings,

Mis- is a naughty girl.

Insectoid, Happy Beltine to you too. And others

Damn, humanity, stop sucking so much!
There's a joke in there somewhere I just know it.


Ah girl, why can't you have more moments like when you told Nynaeve that you would hate to think you where going to kick her the length of the Mol Hara for nothing.


You just abandoned you friends so you could make calf eyes at your new husband. Ok, I can't really fault you. I remember my honeymoon period. I couldn't be bothered either.

But the pair of you screwed up and you know it. But you compound matters by thinking that you don't have to talk about it or that others couldn't have done a better job. Thus the reason the real Aes Sedai are trying to gain control of the situation. But "the blindest stone is the one who refuses to see." Thanks Elayne, or Lini or Morgase.

And so I am off to find 10 economic indicators for my exam on Monday.


Hey isn't Tempest™. an Econ major? I could use your help here.
John Massey
108. subwoofer
Edit:Subwoofer's log stardate 2010.121.1

I wouldn't say they compounded matters...

On the one hand Elayne and Ny get looks and grief every moment they have to deal with the Sea Folk. The strength of their bungling is evident by the way they are treated. A mea culpa may be called for, but I think their noses get rubbed in it enough. OTOH Elayne and Ny are still fresh from earning their AS cred from other AS, to say "shucks, I putzed up, I don't know what I am doing", would take the already unsteady ground from under them.

As a leader in my own small world, I take responsibility for my actions. I try to lead by example and I hate playing the blame game as it accomplishes nothing. So that being said, maybe they would grow in estimation of other AS eyes by saying, "hey, we need help to turn this around". I think some of that is already happening when Elayne gets advice to sic Avi on the Sea Folk. It is too bad there are not other Maidens around, I think that would ratchet up the humility factor for the Water Ladies if they thought they would be stabbed at any given moment...

John Massey
109. subwoofer
Subwoofer's log stardate 2010.121.2 or 63796.5

@Mat- I can't take credit for Ouroboros idea, I just quoted the term.

@Free- well Gothic romance + Free Naval Church going guy reading it =?! There are many layers to this onion.

@Insectoid, between my back 40 and renoing my basement, I feel your pain. Luckily I don't sleep much so it gives me the extra time I need to get what I have to done and blog. Mostly I find myself doing it at off times because either everybody has already chimed in and I miss the boat or I am just leaving as everyone is getting on board. Wah!

S'all good in the hood.

BTW... if I am on Gabbly and I say I have to walk the dogs or anything like that... call the paramedics, have them bring a gurney because I am about to get thrashed. Thus the sudden fleeing of my connection...

Thanks for the vote of confidence Wet, but have you seen the cost of armor these days? I tried duct taping the couch cushions to me but it makes it hard to type and then the wife is even more furious at the sticky tape all over the good stuff. And I can't run very fast. Meh, sometimes you can't win for trying.

Tricia Irish
110. Tektonica

Finally, a very good explanation of Summer Ham. Who would've thought that simple little phrase could've caused such a sensation on this thread! LOL.

MAT: Good luck on Econ and other exams. Soooo glad that is behind me! Way behind me.....

Wetlander: You did miss your calling...should've been a lawyer. Only you could make the SeaFolk somewhat comprehensible.

Sub: Still funny. Good luck with the armor thing, and plowing the Back 40, and the renovation. Thanks for the heads up about the dogs.....we understand.

And....Happy Beltine, y'all.

(We really don't say "y'all" in Florida. Florida is not a southern state. I know it's in the south, duh, but it's populated by transplanted northerners. I have a friend from Texas and that word is contagious.)
Hugh Arai
111. HArai
Re: "Summer Ham" - one site I found pointed out that you normally make ham when the animals have their tasty winter fat and you can use less smoke and spices. So a summer ham is scrawny and bitter tasting... sounds like Teslyn doesn't it? :)
112. MasterAlThor
Summer Ham = Sweaty Pig.

Just a thought.



Thanks for the thoughts and well wishes.
Alice Arneson
113. Wetlandernw
lostinshadow @100 "The art of the insult" - Yes, that's what I was thinking about. It's far more than just expletives intended to express frustration or anger. A really good insult doesn't even have to involve cursing, but culture is a major part of what is or is not insulting, far beyond the literal meanings of the words.

Also - thank you re: Windfinders. I never bothered to think about it until last night, when something made me realize that they might have some reason to behave as they did. When there's such a contrast between an apparently reasonable and well-functioning society and its extremely annoying representatives, there must be more going on.

Happy work-day!

jadelollipop @103 - Sorry... I suppose in WoT the "Devil's Advocate" should be renamed "Dark One's Advocate" but DOA has implications too. Let's see... SA? GLA? Ummm...

MasterAlThor @107 - LOL! several times, in fact. :P

Tektonica @110 - Re the windfinders... Mind you, I'm not saying I'd like to be buddies with Caire, or Harine, or Renaille... (Especially Caire - she strikes me as someone who would drive me up the wall in any circumstances. Stab anyone in the back for the chance to move up a step. Grrr.) Still, there is a certain possibility that, in a more comfortable environment, most of them might actually be okay. Or at least less annoying.

Re: the summer ham, as far as "actual meaning" interpretations go, I think HArai @111 and Aladdin_Sane @104 have probably the best take. However, I still suspect (mostly from Lan's reaction) that it's an insult with more than the literal meaning attached, and probably the "other meaning" is something that would make Elayne blush like a sunset if she learned the truth. Not that she'd refrain from using it, mind you - she'd just think it over for a while until she got used to it, and then use it without blushing... Or, possibly, if someone sat her down and actually explained the meanings of some of her colorful metaphors, she'd swear off them completely.
Hugh Arai
114. HArai
Wetlandernw@113: Maybe Uno can explain those phrases to Elayne. We don't get enough Uno!

As far as the Sea Folk go: As you say, in other circumstances they'd likely be less annoying. Also I think except for that first trip with the quite nice crew, the Sea Folk we've been seeing are what apparently comprise the Sea Folk politicians. If you only look at the political weasels from each culture in Randland (or real life for that matter) you're going to get a really sour opinion of that culture. If all you saw was Sevanna or Colavaere or Weiramon or Iselle, you'd wonder why Rand was bothering to save anyone :)
Tess Laird
115. thewindrose
MasterAlThor - Yes, I am indeed a Econ Major! I love, love, love econ:) (I am thinking you are not so happy with it at this moment?)

Wish I could come over and help you study, but for some reason Traveling doesn't work in our world:(

I can't remember if it was this thread or last where Isilel pointed out that for Winfinders, you are pretty much stuck in a dead-end job. You can't rise to be a Wavemistress and you live a long time so you get to advance with your current wavemistress until she dies, then you get to start all over again. I wouldn't be to happy to be in that situation. I am pretty sure you don't have to be able to channel to be a Windfinder for a ship, however if you can channel - then guess what you get to do!

a a-p
116. lostinshadow
Wetlandernw@113 - great thinking on the windfinders...I liked them the first time they appeared and like someone else mentioned couldn't quite figure out why they became so unlikable as we saw more of them.

I have too much faith in Robert Jordan as an author and world builder to seriously consider that he would suddenly drop the ball on an entire culture, letting the whole thing degenerate into annoying harridans with no apparent redeeming qualities, so your explanation on how perhaps its the discomfort and fear of the unknown and uncertainty as to their fellow AM's fate that makes them excessively confrontational makes me feel better about all the plot lines that include them. so many thanks for that again.

Perhaps also all the problems that Elayne is having with these disparate groups of women are a means of getting her ready for the succession plot line? Gotta give it to RJ, he really lets his characters grow into their roles even if they are predestined for such leadership positions.

Usually in fantasy the farm boy goes on quest and/or finds sword and is suddenly good wise leader who saves the world from all evil. Which, don't get me wrong when written well is great fun to read, but when you see what the poor farm boy (and all around him) have to go through - including making mistakes - to get to that 'decent leader' position it's much more satisfying.

ok 12 hour work day combined too many kebabs has turned my brain to mush so I'll be medicating myself with some red wine and snooker (having eliminated O'Sullivan Selby better beat that Dott character!) so that I can be ready for tomorrow's long work day.

*wanders off with wine in hand grumbling about having to stay in to work (on translating financial statments-bleh) on a Sunday with forecast for sunny 80F*
Jack Diamond
117. violetdancer
Aggh! Finals week, papers due, lab project to finish up and I can't help but come here for escape. Not much time to comment but here goes a quickie.

Dull Dagger: Someone, possibly Rand, can use it to run a sneak on the DO without being detected. Might just come in handy in the last books. Aviendha may have been feeling her Talent for the first time or the dagger may have triggered a memory from her Rhuidean experience way back when. Someone will need to give that dagger to Rand.

Careane's actions: not necessarily stupid. She can't free Ispan without blowing her cover and/or killing many Kin. Exposing her face creates a diversion, but thanks to Alise doesn't produce the total chaos Careane needed. But now Ispan is turned over to AS, and Careane might be able to get close to them. Also given the Heart set up, Ispan may not know Careane is a DF. Killing Adeleas probably was done because Careane couldn't free Ispan without collateral damage.

Cursing: I have a cousin who is a Civil War historian. She says the most frustrating thing about reading soldiers' letters/diaries is that they don't spell out curses. They leave a blank or say someone was a gifted swearer, (Gen. Richard Ewell supposedly made profanity into an art form.) but give no examples. Deadwood series doesn't count because all swearing changed postwar.

Gotta hit the books, but I'll be back...
Sam Mickel
118. Samadai
I just saw this add for a movie coming out on June 2nd called Splice. It is about 2 genius geneticists who splice together animal and human dna and the creature that comes from it. freaky
Tricia Irish
119. Tektonica

Somebody's making Trollocs??
Alice Arneson
120. Wetlandernw
HArai @114 - Uno - my thoughts exactly. I'm thinking maybe she picked up a few good lines from him - he'd have been a great source. Maybe she could raise her chin at him and order him to explain?

Politicians... yeah. What you just said!

lostinshadow @116 - Thank you for your kind words. It's nice to have that frustrating need to see both sides have a positive effect sometimes! As you say, maybe they'll be a little less annoying for some of us this time through.

You make a very good point regarding RJ's characterization. There are some things that have irritated me as a reader, but his character development has never been one. The maturing of the SuperKids takes place on screen, so we live through it with them and it's very obvious. But every character (however minor) and culture also has its own backstory and logical development, most of which took place only in his head and the database, and we only see the results. (Okay, I'm glad he didn't do it all on screen, or the books would be even longer....) But he obviously thought through the probable reactions of these characters to the scenarios; the more I think about it, the more I realize that "sweet and reasonable" would be totally unbelievable for these women.

violetdancer @117 - "the dagger may have triggered a memory from her Rhuidean experience" - Brilliant!! I keep forgetting that she's done that, and would have those memories surfacing at appropriate moments... The only thing we've seen so far is the "sharing Rand" business, but there had to be more than that.

Samadai @118 - Please tell me neither of them is named Aginor...
Sharon E.
121. Sulin
violetdancer @117- So that's why there's all those blanks in old memoirs/letters etc., I always wondered!

I didn't think of the dagger triggering Avi's "Rhuidean experience" either. Good catch!
Sandy Brewer
122. ShaggyBella
I really liked the Damane windfinder that Mat rescues from the Seanchan "kennel" in a later book. He shows her how release the a'dam and tells her to wait a few hours before escaping. The escaped windfinders cause a lot of destruction to the Seanchan forces as they try to free the rest of their people and reclaim their ships.
123. Freelancer

Yes, I've seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding".
"Eho tria orchidea!"


Actually, in the gambling world, "whales" are big-money players, not necessarily losers. The term for the novice who doesn't know he's getting his clock cleaned until it's too late is "fish". And if you're ever playing at a full table, and you don't know who the fish are, I have bad news for you.


Never took econ in school, I always preferred real math. But nowadays, every month-end is like an econ final for my work. Prepping the next projections, gap analysis for previous forecast-v-actuals, sourcing shifts in ratios of cost/revenue/reclaim, margin comparisons to industry sector and global indicators... Just about every Monday I get in my car for the morning commute and go "When did I turn into a bean counter?!?"


Sorry bro, you got me dazed and confused. While I've been compared to an onion before (mostly the pungence and tear-inducing aspects), I've no clue who Victoria Holt is/was, I don't read ANY form of romance work, gothic or not, and still can't see what connection you made to me there.

Oh wait. Now I see it. You read comment #56 and only noticed the avatar, thinking it was me. Once again, you've mistaken me for Amalisa, to whom you should apologize profusely, as I desperately hope we're not that similar in appearance.


If the chin doesn't work, Elayne can aim the dimple, or cross her arms. I'm not sure Uno could stand up to such a barrage.

About Aviendha and Rhuidean rings memories. I always thought it curious that the bit about having to share Rand was so clearly remembered, after Amys and the others told her that the memories would fade, but would guide her at the appropriate time. So, if the dull dagger did cause her to "flash", is there any reason she wouldn't say so? It could at least be an internal POV thought. I say that to say that while the conjecture is fine, I'm extremely hesitant to agree with such theories, because it's then too easy to internalize them as though they had an evidentiary base. It's nearly impossible as it is to keep all of the details of this story lined up accurately in one's mind, bringing in unsupported ideas (however reasonable and intriguing) increases the difficulty.

My take on Aviendha's response to the dagger was simply that she could "read" it's function, and was somewhat shocked and disbelieving about it. Recall that later, she still doesn't believe that she's really telling what the items do, until she fires up the library statue.
Ron Garrison
124. Man-0-Manetheran
Swearing like a sailor:
For those of you who want to improve their cussing skills, like Elayne, I highly recommend the naval adventure novels of Dewey Lambdin. They are also extremely good novels with a set of recurring characters and well crafted images. The main character starts out as in impressed midshipman in the Royal Navy during the American revolution. Each novel progresses in time, and not only did I learn a lot about the tall ships and naval warfare, but also some great and colorful phrases which I can't post here. Let's just say they are more colorful than a summer ham.
Tricia Irish
125. Tektonica

It's nearly impossible as it is to keep all of the details of this story lined up accurately in one's mind, bringing in unsupported ideas (however reasonable and intriguing) increases the difficulty.

Boy, do you have that right! My head swims after one of these posts and now that I'm rereading the "whole darn thing" again, I'm finding all sorts of new insights as well as mis-leads....probably due to "theorizing".....although I'm totally guilty of that myself, because it's so much fun! Besides, with RJ, you'd have to have zero curiousity to NOT try to figure out where he's headed.

Mano-O@124: You always have such good book ideas. Thanks!

BTW, did anyone read pupxperts link to the NPR article about the Traveling People of's very intriguing, as per our Tinkers.....
John Massey
126. subwoofer
Sorry Free, it was yur twin again. For a moment it was nice to see a softer side of you, but that was dashed away. Ahem, I stand corrected. I will still get a chuckle out of picturing you in your bunk on an aircraft carrier reading a romance novel with all your shipmates scratching their heads around you. Heh.

FTR- It would be hilarious if you and Amalisa both show up at JordanCon 2011 and you are both wearing the same outfit:)

127. Oldwizard
Whew, I caught up! Been reading these re-read chapters for about two weeks now, figured I'd try posting.

(have not read the comments, all of them anyway, perhaps I should. Sorry!) :)

As many others, PoD were the first book I had to wait for (1 1/2 years)and the contents, while mildly entertaining were not something to jump up and down for. WH however... Looking forward to that re-read. Good work so far Leigh.

Nothing worth posting about this time (though as the man said, "I'll be back!"), just want to say, proudly and humbly, that after a costly process I have now bought reprinted hardcovers of all the seven first WoT novels. Pride of place on my overstuffed bookshelves. Not important, just... It's important to ME, OK! :) Rambling now, up for ninteen hours. Time for bed. No one will read this post anyway since it is so late, so who cares what i say anyay.

*puts on magic ring and disappears*
128. Oldwizard
Just a clarification if you don't follow. I have all the books up to TGS, but the first seven were only available to me in paperback. (Norway and fantasy, not good buddies, though it has gotten better since the LotR movies came out.)

Oh, you DID understand the first time around... *going bright red of embarrasment, fumbling in pocket for ring*

Flying now!

Alice Arneson
129. Wetlandernw
Oldwizard - Hey, welcome!! I'm still up and reading... or actually just sitting down for the first time in about 10 hours. I'm woofed but always get a second wind when I sit down to my favorite blog. ;) Glad you're with us and posting; we love new input around here. Does your magic ring just make you disappear, or can you fly with it? I wants one... ::precious::
Thomas Keith
130. insectoid
Sub @126: LOL!! Amalisa seems to have changed her avatar already... ;)

Oldwizard: Welcome, friend! Love the ring ;)

Jacy Clark
131. Amalisa
Re Elayne's cursing... I spent the summer between sophomore and junior year in high school participating in my home state's Governor's Honors program - an on-campus intensive learning experience with approximately 400 other students from all over the state of Georgia. It was my first time in an environment that wasn't either family or church related, and the cross-section of kids was varied, to say the least. I picked up many habits - good and bad. And, as teenagers will do, incorporated expressions and words learned from my new-found friends into my daily lexicon. One of those words was "frigging". Now, being a well-read girl from a Navy background, I knew what a "frigate" was and I knew what "rigging" was. When I heard the expression "frigging" at GH, I somehow morphed the two words I was familiar with into the one word I was not. So... For about a week, once I was home again, I went around the house (and elsewhere *facepalm*) saying "friggin' this" and "friggin' that". After a week, my mother realized that I really had no clue at all what I was saying and, with a great deal of hilarity, explained it to me.

So, yeah, I get Elayne's attempts at swearing and find them very funny and endearing.

@Seamus1602 - Per Moridin's pov, we know that the DO had strained "from his prison enough to touch the world and fix the seasons in place." To me, that means it was going to take pretty intensive and drastic action to overcome the DO's work - and lots of saidar to get it done. No one knows more about the weather than the Sea Folk Windfinders. Also, apparently, the Bowl of the Winds was an important part of their history - enough so that there was "lore" for Caire to study. As for whether or not she did it right... I believe she did the weaves correctly; it was the scale that caused the problems. Weather is one of the most powerful, primal forces on this planet. Here in the States, in the springtime, a simple wind shift on the eastern slope of the Rockies can (and often does) grow into a storm front that will march from western Kansas to the Appalachians and encompass everything from the Dakotas to the Gulf Coast. Having lived in various parts of Tornado Alley for most of my life, I have no problem with buying into the fury with which the weather rebounded once the Bowl of Winds was used on that immense scale.

Now, that said, I'm in complete agreement that the "bargain" was pretty one-sided in favor of the Sea Folk. And there will be hell to pay when the Hall gets wind of it. (Although, assigning Romanda and Lelaine "teaching assignments" might be... interesting.)

@Wetlandernw - Okay. I'll try to be more charitable toward the land-bound Sea Folk. Try, I said. No promises, though!

Freelancer and Subwoofer... I have changed my icon. I hope that helps! Moving foward, any confusion is entirely your responsibility. *lol*

@Oldwizard - Welcome! :D
a a-p
132. lostinshadow
Hi Oldwizard, welcome on board!

yeah I know what you mean about getting hold of fantasy in some places... Like you said after LoR there have been more (but usually translated versions) so I have to beg my friends to bring me the books from the US or the UK because I'm too afraid to order them on line lost way too many books to the customs guys :(

nothing to add to the Randland discussion, still have financial statements to translate on this lovely sunday morning.

enjoy your weekend all!
Wesley Parish
133. Aladdin_Sane
131. Oi, Amalisa, sweet Amalisa, did your education not include the Sex Pistols

Oi Scurvies,listen to this then
It was on the good ship Venus
Friggin' in the rigging
Friggin' in the rigging
Friggin' in the rigging
There was f*** all else to do

or as I like to fix it, to take into account some of the great Rugby Football Union-playing nations of the world, such as Wales, South Africa, New Zealand ... :

F***ing in the rucking
F***ing in the rucking
F***ing in the rucking
There was frigg all else to do

You suffered a deprived upbringing ... :-)
Birgit F
134. birgit
Adeleas brought her rangy gray up on her other side. The white-haired sister had acquired a new saddle in Ebou Dar, a gaudy thing worked with silver on pommel and cantle. The flies seemed to avoid her, for some reason, though she wore a scent as strong as any of the flowers.

TPoD ch. 3

The ants had been a gret disappointment. That was one of the Blue Ajah secrets, a way to repel insects or make them gather and bite or sting, though not intended for the use she had put it to.

NS ch. 21

How did Adeleas learn a Blue Ajah secret? Do different Ajahs have the same "secrets" and don't know it because they don't talk to each other?
Linda Taglieri
135. Linda
How did Adeleas learn a Blue Ajah secret? Do different Ajahs have the same "secrets" and don't know it because they don't talk to each other?

That is so. Also if enough sisters learn or 'rediscover' a weave then the weave becomes a general one taught to all.
Jacy Clark
136. Amalisa
@Aladdin_Sane (A lad insane? I like it! :D)

As I was scanning through the lyrics at the link, I recognized two of the songs as reworks of hits by the Monkees and Frank Sinatra. Does that adequately explain why the Sex Pistols did not figure into my musical upbringing? *lol*
Tricia Irish
137. Tektonica
Good Sunday morning all....

Welcome Oldwizard...have you learned how to make those rings yet? Give it to Elayne to study, please. It seems that several of us here could use one.

I'm continuing my reread, currently the "Shadow Rising".....someone else on here was there too, I think...please identify yourself.....scissor, was it you?

A couple of tidbits from SR:

Ch.9, "Decisions:" Lanfear has corned Rand in his room in Tear, has revealed who she really is, scaring him silly, and is trying to convince him to come with her to the darkside....

Asmodean will teach you to wield the Power without it killing you....We can destroy all of them (the other Forsaken), even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know.... Did Lanfear kill Asmodean??? (I know she went throught the door frame in Cairhein, but could she have appeared in the broom closet somehow? After all she put him up to teaching Rand. It seems so obvious that it can't be right, but yet, here it is in print...)

Re: Healing Stilling....Ch.5, "Questioners",

"Burned out " was what it was called when it happened by accident; officially, stilling resulted from trial and sentence. Egwene could not see the point of it, really; it was like having two words for falling down the stairs, depending on whether you tripped or were pushed. For that, most Aes Sedai seemed to see it the same, except when teaching novices or Accepted.

A couple of paragraphs later, Nynaeve says,

What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence. (clue by four) At least, no one had ever been able to Heal stilling.....But even a hint of success at Healing a woman who had been stilled was nonexistent. This from the woman who does it!

With the various references to Setalle being Burned out, and it not being able to be Healed, the above gives me hope that Nynaeve will heal that too, ....perhaps along with bringing Rand back somehow after TG.

It's so fun to reread with tGS knowledge. I'm sure we'll all have to do it again after the last two books!

Happy Last Day of Beltine weekend....enjoy your spring wherever you are!
Erik Haakensen
138. Oldwizard
Wohoo, I'm registered! Now I don't have to write my pig-kissing name each time, and besides, no one can steal it! So there! :)

Wonder if Nynaeve can "heal" non channelers to use the OP. Or hey, perhaps I can learn! :P

Give rings away...? *guarded tone* Noo, can't give ring away, no precious. It is mine... My OWN! My precious... *vanishes*

But seriously. I know it was a few books back and has probably been thought to death but since I only read the thirty or so first comments on each re-read.(I will from now on, I PROMISE!:) )
Regarding Mat "dying" while wearing the foxhead medallion that protects him from the OP. Didn't he get struck by lightning? An effect rather than the direct usage of the force- oh, sorry, the One Power I mean. He was also previously thrown various things at him when Vandene/Adeleas experimented with (or against) the medallion. I can only remember horse dung at the mo, so...
Rand said not protected from male channeling yes, but Rand is "only" the Dragon, not omnipotent.

Don't expect a long (or any at all) answer, we are on PoD after all. Oh... I'm BACK!
139. laotsekung
seated female figurine angreal:
dont know if anyone else has suggested it, but I always assumed it was a reference to one of the Buddhist female dieties - White Tara seated for example.
John Massey
140. subwoofer
@Oldwizard- welcome- no fear, at some point we will gently poke fun at you too:)- Ahhh pretty picture, long hair is the fashion in your neck of the woods? :P

Ahem @Amalisa- I like the new threads but I still have the mental image of you and Free showing up to JC 2011 in something with a V neckline and floral and wondering who has to go back and change.::Shrug:: What can I say, I have a vivid imagination, I do read fantasy after all:)

Oh yeah- Amalisa+ reeally, really old Gothic Victorian romance novel=?! See, Free is a guru, so it is a given that he is old, but either you were taking some kind of off color English Lit class or you are pushing er... Aes Sedai agelessness. I know, I know, it is not polite to talk about a lady's age, I am just putting it out there and seeing what sticks is all::second shrug::.

FWIW- I will still be confused, so it's on me.

And somebody went off on a tangent suggesting woman can teach men to channel. Now I am not going to say fish guts right off the bat, but as demonstrated... er as it will be demonstrated by the Bowel of the Winds, when the Windfinders channel into it, as weather is a thing that affects everything, there are no men present and Saidin springs up from the Bowl. The Creator meant for both Saidin and Saidar to be used to do all things in the world, and the world cannot be healed by halves. This does not mean that the Windfinders have suddenly discovered a hidden skill, I think that sometimes, weaving things a certain way, calls to the other half of the Source.

@ laotsekung- Fifster, for all his Rickrolling, has already put up an image back when. But here:

diane heath
142. jadelollipop
Tek @ 137 it is me. Still working through Shadow Rising. Tower falling as I type
Tricia Irish
143. Tektonica
Thanks Jadelollipop@142:

You are ahead of me.....I think...what tower? Rand is just issuing orders, and burying Callandor in the Heart of the Stone, and heading to Rhuidean in my read.

Aren't the little tidbits fun to find this time through? I'm really enjoying it.
Maiane Bakroeva
144. Isilel
Lsana @78:

While it is true that as far as we know nobody seems to be fooling with ter'angreal apart from the SGs, Avi and Liandrin's Keystone Coven (who also seem to be fooling with T'AR with relative impunity, BTW), none of them have been hurt so far and they have all learned useful things.
IMHO, careful, intelligent people with a smidge of identification/creation Talent have always been able to study ter'angreal without getting fried.

However - due to the preferred method of BA covering their murders (and Ishy occasionally displaying his displeasure), studying ter'angreal is considered so risky that very few people even try.
And due to the culture of secrecy and advantages needed to circumvent the stupid hierarchy somewhat, most of the discoveries probably never became public either (i.e. Coreanin Nedeal's trove).

The same is true of OP experimentation, BTW, and even force-learning. We see lots of examples everywhere and relatively few fatalities, even among the Ashaman, who are brutally force-taught.

It also seems like stilling Martine and erasing her memory is more complicated and risky than just killing her.

Maybe engineered ter'angreal malfunction is like any OP mismanagement and can have varied results? And it would be like Verin to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, once she saw that the victim was stilled - which removed her as a threat as effectively as death as far as AS were concerned. I am very suspicious about Martine's amnesia - which could have been handily produced by Verin's form of Compulsion.

I also think that Verin was probably on the Supreme Council of the BA, because there is only so much that can be learned from a peon position, but most here prefer to think that she did the absolute minimum to avoid discovery and remained on the outskirts.

IMHO, given her unique experiences, the restored Setalle/Martine could be very helpful, both for the WT reform, and for taking over ter'angreal business from the otherwise occupied/prevented Elayne.
Yes, it is true that no SAS who tried to learn from Elayne was able to - but that would be a small minority of all AS. And Martine/Setalle would have more prerequisites than anybody, IMHO.

BTW, speaking of Elayne - no amount of "growth" arguments could make up for her abject failure as politician and diplomat that is the Bargain.
Because this is something that she'd been trained in since infancy.

I mean, all other main characters are competent in their prior trades, right? They only fail and have a lot of learning to do when they are out of their original element.
Nyn is one heck of a herb-healer, Perrin is one heck of a blacksmith, etc. Only Elayne is a goof.

And then we have a loong succession storyline to prove that no, evidence to the contrary, Elayne deserves to rule.
Something that making a decent Bargain in the first place would have demonstrated admirably and economically. Welcome to Château de Bloat!
diane heath
145. jadelollipop
@143 The White Tower fallen. Siuan and Leanne stilled and left Tar Valon with Min and Logain. (I always think Rogaine haha) the meantime Rand heading to Cold Rocks hold.
I agree re: Elayne and her lack of competence if memory serves. Some have said her ability to create Ter'angreal just out of the blue as if being Daughter-Heir of Andor not enough. I am hoping in the coming re-reads that the Perrin/Faile plot gives me a nicer view of Faile.
Re: Elayne,I would guess she is Ilyena reborn. (similar names, most wanted killed by fans ;),and the one who has Rand's kids at this point *after TGS*
146. Lsana
@144 Isilel,

Avi doesn't fool around so much with the ter'angreal that I remember; she eventually shows her talent for identifying them, but I don't think she spends a lot of time tossing random weaves into them to see what happens.

Liandrin's group seems to be working pretty closely with various Forsaken, whom I presume can tell them how to use their stolen ter'angreal safely.

It's really just Elayne who is fooling around with these without knowing what she's doing. I don't find it odd that she has thus far been lucky.

It just makes sense to me that investigating ter'angreal ought to be dangerous. Consider how many dangerous things that people have in their houses right now. Take, for example, a curling iron. Imagine how many ways you can kill yourself with that. Now imagine giving it to someone who has no idea what it does or how it is supposed to work, watching them plug it in, and do random experiments involving air, water, fire, and earth with it. Care to lay odds that our experimenter comes out of this without being killed or maimed?

It seems like the only way ter'angreal studies wouldn't be dangerous is if the people in the AOL assumed that complete idiots might be using these objects and built them so that it was completely impossible to hurt yourself with them.

On Verin: it might be nice to believe that she did the minimum possible, but that doesn't seem compatible with her learning very much. Most of the BA we have met don't meet any other sisters outside their own heart unless they are doing some sort of mission. Logically, the only way Verin would meet very many is if she went on lots of missions.
John Massey
147. subwoofer
@Isilel- Lol- I suppose calling Elayne a goof is putting it mildly. Mind you, I do think that there is a world of difference between statesmanship and haggling. I am still scratching my head at the general reaction all the girls showed when dealing with the Sea Folk. Avi was put off at having to kill a man a day, Ny was baffled and even Birgitte seemed a touch out of sorts at dealing during the bargaining process. Maybe they spiked the tea. I dunno.

What I do wonder is why they had to seal the deal right there and then? In times past, when I have had to buy a car or a house or anything else, I have no qualms about sitting down to negotiations and then, if I am not satisfied, saying, "well, I'm going to have to do more research or fact finding, we can re-visit this later". And actually coming back later and sitting down again. If I am not satisfied with something I walk away. Granted, Elayne had a need, but they putzed around for weeks in Ebou Dar, what is a day or two in the general scheme of things.

148. Silvertip
Freelancer @123:

Just about every Monday I get in my car for the morning commute and go "When did I turn into a bean counter?!?"

Brother, I feel your pain ...

Jacy Clark
149. Amalisa
Sub, you're starting to worry me. I'm just sayin'... *lol* As for comparing my age to Freelancer's - I have seen his picture, and I'm guessing we are fairly close in years. Also... mad props for the Monty Python picture!

IMHO, careful, intelligent people with a smidge of identification/creation Talent have always been able to study ter'angreal without getting fried.
According to Vandene, Martine/Setalle was the Tower's resident expert on all things *angreal. I mean, she did study them for forty years before the accident that burned her out.

I disagree about Verin being on the Supreme Council. It seems to me, from what we know of Alviarin's experiences, to be that high only makes it more difficult to pursue a personal agenda. Certainly, Alviarin has had her hands full just following orders from Mesaana and, later, Shadar Haran. Also, remember that Alviarin was raised to lead the BA after Ishy had her predecessor (Jarna Malari) killed for taking matters into her own hands regarding the Dragon Reborn. And while being on the Supreme Council wouldn't carry quite as much scrutiny as being head of the Black Ajah, it would still be too prominent a position to allow Verin much freedom, I would think. Much better to be low profile - even easily dismissed - and still able to observe and learn.

Yes, that probably involved "missions"; I mean, Verin told Egwene that there were things she had done that would require special redemption. And, yes, she probably identified a number of the BA by "working" with them. But for someone who was as carefully observant as Verin apparently was, she might have picked up on others just by keeping her eyes and ears open.

@Lsana (and Isilel) - Why would the BA want to kill/still Martine? It would seem to me that having someone competent (which she obviously was) studying *angreal would work to everyone's benefit - including the BA. Unless it turned out that one of the shiny AoL toys would automatically point to someone affiliated with the DO and say "Aha!" No... much better to let someone (especially someone who wasn't BA) else take the risks and let the BA reap the benefits, don't you think?

Edit: Vandene for Verin
Charlie McMurchie
150. FromtheLangToun
Re' Elayne's education in colourful language, perhaps somebody could give her a copy of "Roger's Profanisaurus" it's not for kids or the sensitive, otherwise Google & enjoy.
John Massey
151. subwoofer
@149Amalisa- you and Free.

What can I say? Don't fret, I worry my wife too. 'Tis what I do. And you can't be close to Free's age. There can be only one slotted in GBWR, and I know he has it on lock-down;)

And I saw this:

Lan and Co. Sans the yellow shawled wonder.

Edit- never mind- I don't cater to ass-monkeys! This is still a gooder:)

John Massey
152. subwoofer
Yoiks! Methinks I am going to have to clap my hands on the comics! There are some awesome images netwise that can only come from those pages.

Sharon E.
153. Sulin
A little belated, but welcome Oldwizard!

sub@152- that's an awesome picture! :D
154. alreadymadwithsecrets
Linda @135
As an alternative she may have simply weaseled it out of an unsuspecting Blue. Aes Sedai seem to make the ferreting out of secrets, particularly other sisters' secrets, one of their most important day to day activities.

subwoofer @140
I think that sometimes, weaving things a certain way, calls to the other half of the Source
Err, no amount of weaving will call the opposite half of the Source. It's the ter'angreal itself that automatically drew on Saidin. It's rather unusual though in that it drew on Saidin without the presence of a Saidin channeler. Makes me wonder if the Bowl could have been used by a male. Rand does have a couple of Asha'man strong in Air. In addition to his own considerable abilities with it.
Sharon E.
155. Sulin
AMW@154- I've always wondered if Rand could use the Bowl too. Didn't Elayne (or someone) mention fetching him to join with them and activate the bowl? I can't remember where I read that, or if I did. :/
Joseph Blaidd
156. SteelBlaidd
Late to the game but I do have a few thoughts.

First of all I will go on record as saying that I actually enjoy re-reading these chapters. The adventures of Elayne and Nynaeve are some of my favorite parts of the Wheel of Time. Part of it is I just like Elayne and Aviendha and their interaction part of it is that Elayne's story helps give WoT some depth and realism that I miss in a lot of epic fantasy. The "good King" of the good guys country who is universally respected by his "good subjects" and anyone who doesn't fall right in line is a traitor in the service of the Big Bad. The succession in Andor is a great illustration of the work it takes to maintain political power without becoming a Tyrant, and that the "right" to the throne doesn't mean mutch in practical terms ("Dignity and an empty sack ,is worth the sack." FRoA 109).

Regarding 'The Bargain'. I will admit that that this is one of the few things in the book thta makes me want to shout at the characters. I must say though that my ire is reserved for Nesta din Reas Two Moons. Elayne and Nynaeve headed out to make initial contact the Windfinders of a couple of ships in order to make what that thought would be a short term arrangement. The fact that they ended up in negotiations with the top haggler in a nation of hagglers who has been at her trade since before they, and likely their parents, were born was not in even the back up plan.

I don't care how long Elayne has been in training, she's a fresh minted MBA trying to get the better of Donald Trump and Warren Buffit; at the same time. Not going to happen.

I expect that bargaining with Nesta din Reas was much like Mat's dealing with the Fin in his bargain. Any thing you say can and will be used against you. Saying you understand her position is taken as acceptance and a bargain struck.

To everyone who say they should have just walked out, I ask, in what boat? Theirs had left and the only way they were getting of that ship was because the Mistress of the Ships said they could.

As to why the Sea folk get so irritating; re-reading the bargaining scene, in CoS, I realized that as long as the SF are Sailmistress and below they're pretty cool, Even the Wavemistress on the Windrunner was polite and respectfull. It's when were dealing with the First Twelve and Mistress of the Ships and their Windfinders that the SF loose all their cool points.

I suspect it's because for Sailmistresses the shorebound are still people. They have to deal with non-seafolk on a regular basis as customers and they have some respect for non-SF. The Higher ranks probably rarely deal with shorebound any more and seem to consider anyone not SF to be barely worthy of contempt no mater what their position. Which makes the fact that Nesta din Reas seams to think that a short term lease of expertise is worth a long term transfer of intellectual property make some sense.

It reminds me of doing business with China. If your going to have a factory there you have to partner with a local company, one that everyone knows is going to steal any IP they can and you better keep coming up with new stuff or they will dissolve the partnership and throw you out. If they're feeling nice they'll let you use Vaseline when the bend you over but that's the only way you are going to get access to one sixth of the worlds population as customers for your products.
Hilde Sørensen
157. edlihs
Didn't Elayne (or someone) mention fetching him to join with them and activate the bowl? I can't remember where I read that, or if I did. :/

She did. The bowl was found first found in TAR when Elayne and Nynaeve was looking for something to tie the SAS to Rand. Elayne told Sheriam that she thought they might need a man to make it work, but it was a white lie... LoC A Pile of Sand Chapter 15
John Massey
158. subwoofer

True- okay, let me try to say what I mean another way- All the great things in the world were done using both halves of the One Power. So yes, you can do all the jiggery pokery in the world as a female and not tap into Saidin. Same goes vice versa. That being said, no reeally cool stuff can be done without both parts in union, like changing the weather on a global scale, cleansing Saidin, using Callandor... I even think that Mat may not be completely healed because no guy was around to help.

I am thinking that RJ called it the One Power for a reason. I dunno.

@Steel- what boat- well they could ask for a boat, nothing is stopping them from doing that. I don't see why Nesta would refuse, Sea Folk usually have a stick up their bum about AS on board anyways, even though they know that we know that they know... Or Elayne could do the Travel thing. We will witness that in a few chapters. Or they could smack the odd Windfinder around and make the boat go to shore, after all, if they are being held hostage, why do they have to play nice? The possibilities are endless. And, as Spock has pointed out an ancient Vulcan saying, only Nixon can go to China. Thanks for the heads up though, I will be living that shortly...

Alice Arneson
159. Wetlandernw
Verin: I honestly don't see how Verin could have been on the Supreme Council; if she had, there would have been far less painstaking work to identify them and less uncertainty about whether she had them all. In fact, she was pretty sure she didn't, but that she had the majority of them. If she were on the Supreme Council she'd have found a way to be absolutely sure she had the complete list. Also, as Amalisa so aptly pointed out, she'd have been much more free to move around if she were in a "middling" position. (It also suits her apparent personality much better, IMHO.) With her rather obvious Brown skills in observation and correlation, 70 years of such would reasonably result in a nearly-complete list of the BA. And seriously, if she were on the Supreme Council I think she'd have told Egwene so. But that last is just my opinion of her.

Studying ter'angreal - Certainly there would have been a great many safe ter'angreal in the AOL, which could have been studied by virtually anyone without much risk. Thing is, there would be a few that should only be handled by someone who knows what they're doing; in the AOL they would have been stored safely and only used by those qualified. Unfortunately for the current AS, there's no way of knowing which are the "child-safe" ter'angreal and which are the "hazardous - only to be used by trained personnel" ones. So a careful, intelligent person with a smidge of identification/creation Talent might go for many years without getting fried because she (unknowingly) was studying baby toys, and then pick up the wrong one and -- BOOM. I'm not saying that the BA might not have occasionally made use of the phenomenon, but to assume that all such accidents were BA-taking-advantage-of-the-legend occasions is, I think, overly cynical. Nor am I saying that Martine was necessarily playing with baby toys, but the principle still stands.

SteelBlaidd - hey, where have you been?? Good to have you back! And... I don't care how long Elayne has been in training, she's a fresh minted MBA trying to get the better of Donald Trump and Warren Buffit; at the same time. Not going to happen. Yes!! Thank you! No matter what training you give her, an 18-year-old princess up against a professional haggler multiple times her age has virtually no chance of coming out well. Experience will beat training almost any day. Excellent points.
John Massey
160. subwoofer
Darn Tor!

Playing hot and cold! I swear, this was all blank as of yesterday when I first posted!

Sharon E.
161. Sulin
edlihs@157- Thank you for refreshing my memory. I can't believe I didn't remember that being in LoC, I just read that not too long ago. Sigh....must be getting old...
John Massey
162. subwoofer
This one too! I have not lost all my marbles, I don't even like marbles! I am not crazy doing multiple posts.

John Massey
165. subwoofer
Nothing to see here, move along...

John Massey
167. subwoofer
Alright, I am outed. Le sigh. The truth is, I have multiple personalities and I had to do a post for each one...





Lo siento.

John Massey
168. subwoofer
'K- Tor just won't let me do links anymore today...

but I had three gooders.

As for Verin being on the baddie's high council, the big standout for me would be what she would have to do to get there. This may launch a debate about whether or not Verin has it in her, but I do think you have to do really bad things to aspire to such a lofty post, like hurt baby kittens and stuff. Being a lower status BA I think she just had to call the kittens names.

Sharon E.
169. Sulin
I may have missed this somewhere in the comments above, so if I'm being repetitive, sorry! Regarding using the Bowl: Does anyone think it would have made a difference if saidin and saidar had both been used?
170. AndrewB
Sulin @169 asked: Does anyone think it would have made a difference if saidin and saidar had both been used?

IMO, it would have made a difference. It is stated somewhere that in the AoL, the greatest achievemenbts with the One Power were accomplished when men and women (i.e. saidin and saidar working together).

(Although on the con, the circle somehow pulled in saidin. One might argue that the same results would have occurred if men where in the circle.)

The above two paragraphs are what you get when an attorney decides to answer a question without taking a position.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Thomas Keith
171. insectoid
Was gone all day watching my Padres tear apart the Brewers. So playing catch-up.

OldWizard @138: Love the avatar! Gandalf the White FTW! :P

Sub @141: BAHAHAhahaha!! ::can't stop laughing::

Sub @152: That's pretty awesome all right. Don't have the comics handy (they're in a box like most everything else).

Sub @158/160/162/165/167: Thought you didn't like Star Trek VI. ;) And what's up with Tor??

Alice Arneson
172. Wetlandernw
Woah, subwoofer - the RJ poster is way cool!! Missed it my first time through. Excellent link - all five times. :)

"Being a lower status BA I think she just had to call the kittens names." ROFL!! Of course, Verin would have to notice the kittens were around, first...

Sulin @ 169 & AndrewB @170 - It may have made a difference in the AOL, but in this instance it might not have. Caire had studied all the SeaFolk records for this thing and had a fair idea how to use it; I'm not sure bringing a random Asha'man into it who could contribute saidin but had no idea what he was doing would have helped all that much. It might have controlled the "wildness" somewhat, but RJ already told us that the primary reason for the wildness was simply that the ter'angreal wasn't meant to handle that much Power or be used on such a scale.

Short answer - it might have, but anything we say on the subject is purely conjecture; we have (to date) been given no authoritative input on the question.
Sharon E.
173. Sulin
Wetlander@172- I wasn't thinking a random Asha'man, but Rand. You're right though, whatever we say is conjecture.
174. alreadymadwithbowltalk
True, including men in the circle would have done little aside from increasing the potential power they could draw on. I'm thinking it would have still worked if a man had tried to use it himself. That the Bowl would automatically draw on the opposite half if only one half of the Power was used.
Birgit F
175. birgit
Certainly, Alviarin has had her hands full just following orders from Mesaana and, later, Shadar Haran.

That's after the Forsaken are loose. For most of Verin's 70 years in the BA the only one who might occasionally show up in someone's dreams was Ishy.

Why would the BA want to kill/still Martine? It would seem to me that having someone competent (which she obviously was) studying *angreal would work to everyone's benefit - including the BA.

They could let others study ter'angreal and if they find anything interesting kill them before they can tell the whole Tower.
176. Questionable
Odd that noone got the seated female angreal's pose. It's got to be Guan Yin - the goddess of mercy.

You'll find images and statues of her, often with a flower or a vase, but the one described there is pretty common too. Check out the second image down:
Jacy Clark
177. Amalisa
For most of Verin's 70 years in the BA the only one who might occasionally show up in someone's dreams was Ishy.

Yes, and Ishy killed Jarna for exercising her own initiative and ordering that the Dragon Reborn be hunted down and killed. For that reason, I really think the BA didn't exercise a lot of independent action but kept pretty much to following orders.

They could let others study ter'angreal and if they find anything interesting kill them before they can tell the whole Tower.

Still seems kind of inefficient. First, how often does someone pop up who has the Talent to work with *angreal on the scale that Martine (and possibly Elayne) could? Second, continually spying on the guniea pig of the moment just to kill her when a discovery was made would be pretty labor intensive. And third, if AS kept dying every time something new was winkled out, pretty soon no one would be studying them.
Rob Munnelly
178. RobMRobM
@149. Hint: Kennedy administration. Me too, and Free and Wet are a year older than me.
Tricia Irish
179. Tektonica
Sub, Amalisa, Free, RobM:

Age? Is relative. (apologies to Free) I'm not giving any hints...just saying:

Marry Late
Have kids Late
Keeps you young.
Rob Munnelly
180. RobMRobM
I married early and had kids late - so am kept plenty young (and tired).
Tricia Irish
181. Tektonica

That sounds like it was more fun....years together before the little bundles of joy and worry. But I had to find the right guy first.

There is the tired factor.....
John Massey
182. subwoofer
As everyone can see, TOR went loopy on me yesterday. Then it took over my server so I couldn't even book a plane ticket to come to New York and nuke the building after I gave IT the thrashing of a lifetime...

Flippin' ambiguous submittomoderatorforapprovalnonsenseofcoursetheywouldapproveitsme!

@Insectoid... it had it's moments, but the suspense is gone for me because I know the answer to the great quest Kirk was on. Heck some smuck spilled the beans to all of us as we were waiting in line for the previous show to clear(yet another reason to be able to carry small arms- I would have only winged him though- honest).

@Tek- yup, and there was such good tunes:) And I would have love to of grown up during the horse and buggy era:)

Jacy Clark
183. Amalisa

The great generational line of demarcation... *lol* But for some reason, I thought you were much younger!


I'll be very interested to see if/when you get your imbedding privileges back because I'm still on the linkage non grata list, and I never posted nearly as many links as you did! ;)
diane heath
184. jadelollipop
I am slowly catching up to PoD....started FoH last night. Paid more attention to those in the study with Elaida. Saw Teslyn and Joline. Also Shemerin (doesn't she become a damane in ED?)
I noted that some thought Rand was going mad as early as TDR but in SR it is apparent that he is pulling a Hamlet to some degree.
Re: Egwene Rand comments on her going all out Aiel
almost too much was noted that Egwene bases a lot of her attitude toward Rand on rumors but she was quick to condemn him while in Rhuidean because in her not so humble opinion he was an ill mannered lout...I guess this series has been so long because on one level or another none of the characters are acknowledging the truth of Rand's destiny and the coming of the Last Battle....
diane heath
185. jadelollipop
quick note to say I was wrong about Shemerin...Elaida demotes her to Accepted....
Marcus W
186. toryx
Wetlandernw @ 159:

No matter what training you give her, an 18-year-old princess up against a professional haggler multiple times her age has virtually no chance of coming out well.

Personally, I don't think that Elayne and Nynaeve should have come out of the bargain with a better deal than the Sea Folk. That's not the issue. The issue is that they came out so horribly. From what we've learned of that particular Bargain, it's more as though two Americans who have never bargained for a thing in their life went up against a Sea Folk expert.

When it comes to Elayne and her sheltered existence, I'm actually more inclined to be a less critical of her than Nynaeve. Nynaeve, though, shouda known better.

Tektonica @ 179:

Marry Late
Have kids Late
Keeps you young.

That's definitely the way to go. Or you can skip step two entirely and never get tired. :)

subwoofer @ 182:

Then it took over my server so I couldn't even book a plane ticket to come to New York and nuke the building after I gave IT the thrashing of a lifetime...

Whoa, dude. You oughta be more careful. New Yorkers are still pretty touchy about things like that, even as a joke. You're apt to get hurt. And you don't mess with the Flatiron building!
Tricia Irish
187. Tektonica

If I may shorten your are a much faster reader than I ....or are finding more time for it!

I felt so sorry for Rand in tSR....he still has moments of softness and much doubt. He's just starting to feel his way with not much guidence....and what he's getting, from Moraine, he is wary of. Thom is a bit of help in Tear.

He's having trouble coming to grips with his fate. Who wouldn't? All the hoopla and judgement and fear, by even his friends is so confusing to him. He seems mostly sad in Tear and is trying so hard. He becomes isolated because his friends are afraid of him, rather than offering solace/help. He has a few moments of hope and lightness with Elayne, but after this, things get pretty serious.

It was nice to revisit him while young and callow.....especially in contrast to his decent in tGS. :-(
Rob Munnelly
188. RobMRobM
183 - I'll take that as a compliment (I hope) but I've always been among the old-er fogies here.
Marcus W
189. toryx
Tektonica @ 187:
He has a few moments of hope and lightness with Elayne, but after this, things get pretty serious.

Then, of course, she has to go and mess up his poor brain even more with those two letters later on. Maybe that's when I really started to dislike her. It's not enough that he has the world on his shoulders and only the faintest hints about what he's supposed to be doing, but he has to deal with emotional relationship drama? That's just messed up.
Joseph Blaidd
190. SteelBlaidd
Wet- Nice to know I was missed. Mostly its been work + Wiggly kids + new Jim Butcher book. Personal I think the ability to go three days without sleep was evolved specifically to deal with infants and we've merely re-purposed it for finishing term papers and studying for exams. I plan on having all my kids while I can stll keep up with them. :D

what boat- well they could ask for a boat, nothing is stopping them from doing that. I don't see why Nesta would refuse, Sea Folk usually have a stick up their bum about AS on board anyways, even though they know that we know that they know... Or Elayne could do the Travel thing. We will witness that in a few chapters. Or they could smack the odd Windfinder around and make the boat go to shore, after all, if they are being held hostage, why do they have to play nice?

Yes but what will they be charged for the boat,hmmm? >:)
There is no way they can fight their way off without causing a major indecent that will ruin any chance of working with the Windfinders under any circumstances. In any case they can't travel for several hours even if they hold the power the whole time, and Nesta is not letting them go till they have some sort of bargain because after this they're not going to come back unless they are in a much better bargaining position, IF THEY COME BACK AT ALL.
Joseph Blaidd
191. SteelBlaidd
Wet- Nice to know I was missed. Mostly its been work + Wiggly kids + new Jim Butcher book. Personal I think the ability to go three days without sleep was evolved specifically to deal with infants and we've merely re-purposed it for finishing term papers and studying for exams. I plan on having all my kids while I can still keep up with them. :D

what boat- well they could ask for a boat, nothing is stopping them from doing that. I don't see why Nesta would refuse, Sea Folk usually have a stick up their bum about AS on board anyways, even though they know that we know that they know... Or Elayne could do the Travel thing. We will witness that in a few chapters. Or they could smack the odd Windfinder around and make the boat go to shore, after all, if they are being held hostage, why do they have to play nice?

Yes but what will they be charged for the boat,hmmm? >:)
There is no way they can fight their way off without causing a major indecent that will ruin any chance of working with the Windfinders under any circumstances. In any case they can't travel for several hours even if they hold the power the whole time, and Nesta is not letting them go till they have some sort of bargain because after this they're not going to come back unless they are in a much better bargaining position, IF THEY COME BACK AT ALL.
Sharon E.
192. Sulin
Re marrying/having kids late- Married young, had kids young- no wonder I'm so exhausted all the time! :yawn:

jade/tek/toryx- Re Rand: I really feel for the poor guy! He's so young, with such a burden, but only one person gives him the unconditional love/acceptance he needs and she doesn't catch back up with him until LoC. I'd like to think that if he'd had more understanding and acceptance earier on, things might not have gone the path they did culminating in events in tGS.
Tricia Irish
193. Tektonica

I agree completely, but there you have the lack of communication in Randland once again.

Sigh. He needs Min 24/7/365.
a a-p
194. lostinshadow
you know you've been thinking too much about WoT when you see a formula for OP and try to figure out what the h*** an EBITDA has to do with use of the one power
195. MasterAlThor

Welcome to the club.


Welcome back to the club

Tek,Sub,Free,Wet,Sulin and others....

Married in my 30's
Been procreating since 22
And I am young enough to live to see my kids graduate from college. After that, they are on their own. I'm gonna make like Kane and walk the earth.

Eric Hughes
196. CireNaes

Yeah, it would be nice if burned out survivors can eventually be healed as well. Perhaps Setalle could be jury rigged with some type of ter'angreal developed jointly by Elayne and Nyneave that could be implanted in her body to compensate for her whole channeling board being fried.


We'll get you next time time!!! If I had a cat it would be wearing a Brewers collar and meowing very loudly right now.
diane heath
197. jadelollipop
tek @187 I am a fast reader and since I lost my job in a downsizing/takeover I do have more time to read.

re: marriage/kids....married young and had kids in 20' have 2 grandsons...The younger one lives with us while a 3rd is due this summer :)
They are all onlies at this point as one daughter in law states pregnancy/labor no biggie but the lack of sleep afterward prevents a sibling ...haha

I think I am about to see the turning point in E and N from competent to comedy as they will be leaving Tanchico and have to be rescued by Tom and Julien (forkroot incident). It seems from that point on they lose ground up to the point of the SF bargain and the disrespect of the AS in their party
Lucas Vollmer
198. aspeo
About Elayne and negotiating:

I think she may be getting an unfair deal over the amount of knowledge in negotiations she is supposed to have. It is being argued that she has been trained in this from an early age, but is that really the truth?

I am sure she has been trained in the affairs of the court, and in the Queen’s duties. She most likely knows how receive and speak to other persons of high rank, and how to treat them with respect. However, I don’t really believe she has had much training in negotiating beyond maybe just the basic ideas of how to do it. It would seem to me that a ruler would decide what they wanted, and then send people under them to do the actual negotiating. (I.E. people whose primary jobs are to be negotiators.)

For example, the Amyrlin Seat may want something from a ruler in another country. She would not normally go do it herself, but would instead send another AS, most likely of the Gray Ajah, to negotiate and procure whatever she had wanted. The GA themselves are another example of this idea. They are an entire Ajah within the tower that specifically train to negotiate deals. They are primarily used for almost all negotiating the tower does.

I think a ruler may be involved and would have input, but a trained negotiator would probably do most of the leg work in getting the deal done. The ruler could then be presented the terms of the deal that had been worked out, and could approve it or send it back to be negotiated some more. So this makes Elayne’s deal more understandable to me, even though they did pretty much get fleeced when they made it.

Elayne probably knew a bit about trying to negotiate, but this was possibly her first deal and she was going against some of the best of the best. She most likely didn’t understand the importance of the BotW to the AM. She knew that the weather desperately needed to be fixed, and considered herself in the much weaker position. This ultimately led to her giving up so much because she probably felt she had to in order to get the best weather working channelers using the bowl.

I think it would have made a difference, at least in the sense that it might have been easier. With a male channeler maybe saidin could have been directly pulled into the flows instead of the bowl having to pull it in by itself.
Tricia Irish
199. Tektonica

Sorry to hear about the job loss, but at least you have WOT to help pass the time....and this blog! Love the "eat crow", er, drink forkroot scene!


After that, they are on their own. I'm gonna make like Kane and walk the earth.

I'm with you on that! I want to see it all! I'm almost there.....
Thomas Keith
200. insectoid
CireNaes @196: LOL!! At least there were no blown calls in this one.

EDIT: 2 hunny FTW! (sorry Sub)

Sharon E.
201. Sulin
Tek@ 193- Sigh. He needs Min 24/7/365.
You're right, he does! :(

M-A-T@ 194- After that, they are on their own. I'm gonna make like Kane and walk the earth. I'm looking forward to that too! I have one entering last year of HS this year. One down, three to go. ;)

aspeo@ 198- With a male channeler maybe saidin could have been directly pulled into the flows... Yes, I wonder if that would've made a difference, as the saidin was basically on "auto-pilot."

Sulin, of the Grey-Haired sept of the Pushing 40 Aiel.™
Ron Garrison
202. Man-0-Manetheran
Harriet on Randland communication:
HM: ...But, making his great theme of making decisions without enough information is so true.

And, his early fan letters, I noticed, would come from two large categories of adult: people in law enforcement and people in medicine: doctors, nurses, policemen, district attorneys. What do these groups have in common? They’re making life and death decisions, every day, without enough information. The policeman, should he draw his weapon? If so, he will probably be shot at himself. The doctor, dealing with a person who is dying, and you never have enough information.

RF: And sometimes, you just have to act.

HM: Yes, and how you do that is a major theme in the series, and how you can be expected to have to do that.
This is just a snip from R.Fife's interview with Harriet at Jordon.con And who would know RJ better? If you didn't read it, you should! Also, his interview with Maria is up today.
203. Freelancer

Careful, I'll sic my 92 year old grandmother and her two older sisters on you. Two of them still drive. Longevity genes FTW!

BTW, Wetlandernw has me by a week, if you're keeping score. Since we all know she isn't old, neither can I be. QED

They could let others study ter'angreal and if they find anything interesting kill them before they can tell the whole Tower.

If the Black are the cause of her "accident", they didn't kill Martine, they haitianed her.

RE: Verin. See Wetlandernw@159
RE: Studying *greal. See Wetlandernw@159

As for marriage/children, I married at the right time, had kids at the right time, and I'm kicking them out at the right time. Speaking of which, anyone out there in the vicinity of Pensacola? Will be out that way very soon.


Is that Kane, as in Citizen Kane, or Cain, the second son of Adam? And for our theological question of the day, does anybody know why Cain didn't please God?
Rob Munnelly
204. RobMRobM
@203 - because he wasn't able (or Abel)?
Barry T
205. blindillusion
Kung Fu.



Didn't bring his best.
Bonnie Andrews
206. misfortuona
So weekend is over and I'm back. Hmmm, you've been busy. Kids and old age, and husband beating (Sorry Sub).

Insectoid. Yep, as soon as I complained Gabbly started working, not that I've had time to check it out much. So I will be able to get my fill of re-reader chat after all.

Oldwizard - Welcome to the bunker. We have food and beverages, music and movies. The hot tub has been cleaned and I see someone recovered the pool table. Enjoy.

Sulin- I've always been of the opinion that the bowl was meant to be used by men and women, however I'm not sure that having someone trying to use the male half without knowing what he should be doing would have helped.

Anyway that's about all for today. Post tomorow. Maybe more to say then.

Mis-still out here lurking
Tricia Irish
207. Tektonica
Hi Mis! *waves*
I've missed you! Glad to see your still lurking!
Eric Hughes
208. CireNaes

It's a funny joke, but I'm curious if people know the real answers to that one.
Steven Pattingale
209. Pattingale
Have you folks seen this?
Roger Powell
210. forkroot
And for our theological question of the day, does anybody know why Cain didn't please God?
Dude brought vegetables to a pot-luck, while his brother brought an entree.
Tricia Irish
211. Tektonica
Thanks Pattingale@209:

Good find!! Well....what did you think?

Who is that guy in the Pink Pants with Mat and Thom?
Mat appears to have the ashandari, but NO HAT????
Tower of Genji, good.....

Any guesses, someone?
Chin Bawambi
212. bawambi
Dude brought veggies LOL

Bawambi of the "40 in my rearview mirror" Aiel

Get off my lawn!
Jay Dauro
213. J.Dauro
And as Linda pointed out, the triangle is upside down (shouldn't it be point down to look like a fox head. )
Rob Munnelly
214. RobMRobM
Brandon just twittered that this cover has problems and he's seen the next iteration already.
Sharon E.
215. Sulin
cirenaes@ 208- Re Cain- I've always thought it was because his heart/attitude wasn't correct. He gave because it was required, not because he wanted to.

Tek@ 211- I thought it was sub-par, myself, but I'm not really surprised considering how Sweet's artwork quality has been degrading for a while now. Maybe the guy in pink is supposed to be Noal?
Noneo Yourbusiness
216. Longtimefan
Kane may have said he will walk the Earth but most of the show takes place in a very regional section of North America.

Also be prepared to leave no footprint behind. Which can be difficult when walking the Earth.
Erik Haakensen
217. Oldwizard
Hey all, nice to be welcomed so warmly. Monty Python is... well, fun in small doses so I won't take offence... :)

I'll take my two cents in some of the discussion here.

Regarding Verin being high up in the BA. I don't think she HAD to be. Verin must be one of the brightest, smarterst AS around. In seventy years I think she could have ferreted out every BA in the tower. And as you say, being high up tends to tie you down and getting you noticed. Being the easily distracted, typical Brown that no one gives a second glance were her perfect cover to list every Black sister she could find.

El & Ny vs Sea Folk... I'm not political in any way and high bargaining like that has serious political implication, so when I read those things I usually just... Well, read it and hope it turns out well. But I am wondering... Well, after Rand's initial ta'veren ing I wonder if the SF highhandedness might come back to bite them in... the end as it were. And even so, promising teachers and such to the SF might actually put people in the right place when they are needed later. The Wheel weaves as the... oh, heard that one already? Moving on

Favorite WoT character? Hmm, associated with Perrin for quite a while but he went off the deep end some while ago so now I hold with Mat, as our estemed post holder does. But I also hold a fondness for Nynaeve, and my favorite scene in the CoS was definetly her finally losing her block.

The Oldwizard image could only be Gandalf, in Sir Ian McKellens interpretation. LotR opened up a new world for me when I read THE book in... now what would that be for you guys. High School? And with writers such as Tolkien, R. Jordan, Terry Pratchett, Terry Goodkind, Terry Brooks, L.E. Modesitt Jr and a host of others, where can we go wrong? (That was a lot of Terry'ies. Any more out there?) :) Oh, I forgot to put in Ms. Rowlings. Harry Potter is great, movies were too up to Half Blood, I wonder where the original story went?

Enough blabber for me for now, I'll hug the line it this continues. :) Goodbye from the Old wizard (whos really 27, not that old really)for now.

"Now where is that ring? Oh, there it is." *vanishes*
Rob Munnelly
218. RobMRobM
Also should note, FYI, Brandon also just twittererd (or tweeted, I guess) that he just got the first draft of the screen play for the Mistborn movie. That is good news. R
John Massey
219. subwoofer
Stardate: 63802.8 Subwoofer's log, supplemental.

@Free-LOL-gotta love tough ol' Granny:)... unless their name starts with C-A-D.

And I -awwwww I'll save the old jokes for a later thread;)

@Steel- perhaps I did not clearly outline my "smack the odd Windfinder around" plan. Ny is fairly handy at cudgelling people, and there is an Aiel and a warder to boot. They are in a captain's cabin, bar the door and spank someone until the say "Baggins" or "Shire"... er, sorry, wrong story. Spank someone until they get a boat and pull a Mat and let the terms of this bargain be that when they come back, the Sea Folk will behave or somebody gets spanked again, or worse. Easy peasy. Bargaining/ whoopass 101.

And see- the TOR bug bit you too:)

Totally unrelated- @Insectoid- good grab:) Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

@Sulin- Love the tag line=)

Vincent Lane
220. Aegnor

I'm not even going to bother getting excited about it until they start production. Ender's Game had a script written a decade ago.
Eric Hughes
221. CireNaes
You're right to bring in the thought, intent, and motive piece, but bawambi@212 also made a pretty funny and important observation too. You want to know or would you like to take another stab at it keeping what was said about the offering itself in mind? Leviticus should help you out if you want to dig a little deeper.

On a WoT note, it is neat to see Jordan bring in the intensification of sin into the Shadar Logoth story line. He was always good at making us see what we know and hold to be right.
Tricia Irish
222. Tektonica
Terez has posted a link to a new Theory she has on the Open Thread@ 1083.
Check it out. Very disturbing and well thought out.

Yikes is all I can say. Can't wait to hear what you guys have to say about it!!
Alice Arneson
223. Wetlandernw
Tektonica - just read the theory. As I told terez there... I'm not completely convinced, but it could happen that way. We should find out in another 6 or 8 months, right?
Thomas Keith
224. insectoid
Mis-lurking @206: If I wasn't up to my glasses with work, I'd probably be on there too. ;)

Tek @211: I'll throw my guesses out there, since I haven't caught up. I concur with Sulin @215... the guy in pink is most likely Noal. My guess as to why Mat doesn't have the hat is that perhaps he is trying to hide from the *Finn, and is employing his elaborate aliases and backstories again. (Or, maybe this is corrected in the next iteration?)

Sub @219: It was soicumstance, I tell ya... like this one: 0xE0! ::foolish grin::

Sharon E.
225. Sulin
CireNaes @221- Hmmm, I just re-read Genesis 4, and it says Cain brought and offering "of the fruit of the ground." Quickly skimming Leviticus revealed that grain offerings were to be of the "first fruits." Is that what you're getting at? If not, please tell me, I'm too tired to dig anymore.

Reading Terez's new theory now...
Maiane Bakroeva
226. Isilel
OK, tempus fugit, so I won't hunt for correct attributions, but:

1. Elayne's negotiating abilities. Yes, of course all politicians including kings and queens had to know how to negotiate.
Political horse-trading _is_ haggling and it is an integral part of all political systems. People who are on top and want things running smoothly have to be good at it. Unless they are feared tyrants, of course.
So, yes, Elayne should have had a very thorough training there.
And yes, sure, Elayne doesn't have Nesta's experience... but isn't it the point of the series that those inexperienced youths are superior leaders than more conventional choices? So, let them show it, particularly when their background should have already provided them with required skills.

P.S. It was perfectly possible to Travel/Skim from a ship at harbor, so the SGs weren't "trapped" by anything except their own idiocy.

2. Verin's position in BA - until Ishy made sudden appearance less than 2 decades ago, the BA seems to have been operating independently for who knows how long.
In these circumstances, being on the Supreme Council wouldn't have been all that constraining and on the contrary may have allowed her to avert the worst in some cases, given her access to a lot of extra information and allowed her to choose her own assignments.
Verin has also met several FS, which is not usual for a rank and file BA.

3. Ter'angreal research - well, it has been abandoned until Elayne, largely as a result of BA over-zealousness and Ishy's punishment of Jarna, IMHO.
IMHO, the BA likely had exclusive knowledge about
the use of certain ter'angreal which it jealously protected, not to mention the secret of OR unbinding. Everybody who dangerously encroached there got the chop.
As Martine did, I think. And I also think that she was supposed to be killed, but OP accidents are unpredictable and given AS culture burning out was good enough too.

IMHO Martine's/Setalle's amnesia is a big hint that something was not kosher with her "accident", as well as her demonstrated continued interest in ter'angreal.
Such an awful trauma should have produced a phobia, no? Unless she subconsciously knows that it wasn't her "fault".

As to Keystone Coven, yes, they did have some instructions on how to use ter'angreal, but they also experimented, by their own admission, and it didn't kill/still them yet. They also experimented a lot in T'AR and remained unscathed.

4. The Bowl - it is a ter'angreal and requires specific instructions to function. Adding a random male channeler wouldn't have helped. Nothing says that LTT knew how to operate a weather ter'angreal either, so I am not sure that even Rand would have helped. It had the effect it did because it was used beyond it's safety parameters, that's all.
David Platt
227. The Not So Dark One
Whoo, bank holiday here in the uk yesterday - lot of posts to read and catch up.

Isilel @66 - at this point in my first read I suspected Adeleas and Vandene strongly of being BA - more so because of Moraine's visit to their farm - after all the Dragkhar had to have some way of finding her - who could have informed on her movements other than those two.

When one of the sisters died I then changed my theory to one sister being black, killing the other when Ispan's answers revealed too much.

Obviously I was wrong all along but just shows how Moraines visit to their retreat could lead two people in two different directions.

Randalator @ 84 - I always believed the wrongness around Ebou Dar was due to Avi's exploding of the gate she was unravelling. If it was a consequence of the Bowl's use I'm sure they would have commented on it when they were opening the gate to Andor in the first place. It was only after the explosion that the strangeness in the power was reported and the Seanchan refer to the new AS weapon.

I also think the bargain was poor - even children after sweets or stickers know that you cant just suddenly throw in random no related issued into a deal - land in Andor? Teaching? Use the Bowl Keep the bowl - we see a weave you see a weave - poor dealing by those two but it kinda props up the story line for a while so I guess there was a plan in mind.
228. lateralus4418
The land in Andor wasn't part of the bowl deal, it was for use of the channelers in Andor to bring food by gateway during the siege.
Tricia Irish
229. Tektonica
Not So Dark One@227:

I think you mean Elayne exploded the gate when they moved to Andor. She was trying to do what Avi did at the palace in Ebou Dar on the way to the farm, but she didn't get it quite right. I think either that was the "new weapon" or just the fact that the Bowl was used with a tremendous amount of Saidar. That must have been a BIG magnet for the Seanchan sul'dams.
Marcus W
230. toryx
Freelancer @ 203:
And for our theological question of the day, does anybody know why Cain didn't please God?

The original writer had deep emotional issues regarding his older brother. He was probably just jealous that the first born got all the attention.
diane heath
231. jadelollipop
The use of the Bowl attracted attention and when Elayne's unravelling of the weave exploded it became identified as an AS weapon. This was one of the reasons that the WT was attacked in Gathering Storm.
The Seanchan want this "weapon"..Question now is
did they get Travelling?
Tess Laird
232. thewindrose
jadelollipop - They got Suffa, so they have Traveling now.

David Platt
233. The Not So Dark One
lateralus4418 and Tektonica @ 228 and 229 -

you are of course, correct - just going off memory without the books.My main point though was that the gate explosion caused the feeling of wrongness - although jadelollipop @ 231 has a fair point that the amounts of power used on the bowl means the Seanchan probably join the two together in their thinking (even though there was a definate break between bowl use and the travelling and fighting).
234. alreadymadwiththeology
Freelancer @203
God specifically asked for lamb chops and Cain thought his vegetable salad was good enough.
James Jones
235. jamesedjones

Nah. He brought poppies. God wasn't amused.
James Jones
236. jamesedjones
As a treatment for the twitches, I'll comment on the SeaFolk agreement.

It may not be the most useful deal, but there are definite possibilities involved. First off, the SF don't select the AS. This 'assignment' would be a punishment for doing something stupid or inappropriate. Look at Tovien: who knows how many years on a farm doing penance, and she's still a pompous idiot. Send her to the SF for half of that time, and you will have a much more cautious, humble person on your hands.

Second, the AS now have traveling and evidence that there are a LOT of women out there that their closeted mentality missed. Plus, they haven't really served anyone in the last 2 millenia, at least. Stick a dozen nightmare SF ambassadors in the WT, and you'll have at least 90% of the AS visiting villages to offer their services and test young women.

Following this deal could be just the kick-in-the-skirts the AS need.
237. Freelancer
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

It is a very common doctrinal statement that Cain's offering was unacceptable because it wasn't meat. It isn't written anywhere that God demanded meat. But meat isn't what Cain produced, it wouldn't have been the work of his own hands had he brought meat. The key is in this phrase:
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.
Abel willingly gave the first and the best of what his work produced, an acceptable show of honor to his Creator. Cain's offering is given no description of quality or choiceness. God knows the heart, and Cain only gave because it was required, and didn't give his best. God was not displeased that Cain brought an offering. He was displeased that Cain wanted a full measure of regard for his offering, while not giving a full measure of regard WITH his offering. God is not fooled, nor is He mocked. Don't pretend to serve Him with public pretenses, while not giving Him your heart.

PS I wouldn't have planned to go there, but I hadn't expected such a response to a silly joke.

PPS And yes, RobMRobM had the original punchline correct.
Noneo Yourbusiness
238. Longtimefan
@ 237
So.... the Wrath comes to those who produce plants and do not give their best. Hmmm, sounds like there is a big frown in the sky on Vegans then.
239. MasterAlThor

You will have to forgive me. I misspelled the Cane I was refering to.

I meant Cane as in Kung Fu. Not Citizen Kane and definitely not Cain of the Abel killing fame.

As an anwer to your other question, according to my Big Book of Goodness, God was disappointed but it doesn't really say why? I would guess that Cain did not bring his best, while Abel brought the best he had.


I see you and since I am the Car'a'carn I too could be considered of this sept. By the way, my kids think I am nuts cause I couldn't stop laughing at your tagline.

I see you too bawambi of the 40 in the rearview mirror Aiel.


Kung Fu FTW!

Free (again)

Long live the greybeards!!!! I will be applying for membership soon enough. LOL!! Though we do have to come up with something for Wetlander and the others. If she can grow a beard......


We should just make a game out of this. Like what Aiel sept would you belong to? Or how would you describe your RL as an Aiel sept?
240. MasterAlThor
Ah, sorry Blind should get credit for catching the Kung Fu reference.

My mistake

241. alreadymadwithlambs
jamesedjones @236
Stick a dozen nightmare SF ambassadors in the WT, and you'll have at least 90% of the AS visiting villages to offer their services and test young women.
LOL. Absolutely right.

Freelancer @237
The doctrine of lamb sacrifice was established early on because God wanted to impress upon Adam and his sons that He would be sending His own Son to be a sacrifice for mankind's sins. The innocent lamb's sacrifice was to be an analogue for the future Lamb of God who was to stand in and take the penalty of sin, that being death.
How does this relate to Cain's offering? Cain was a farmer. He did not grow sheep like the shepherd Abel. Cain not only ignored doctrine by not bringing a lamb, he was also too proud to ask Abel for a suitable sacrificial lamb. God dictated the terms of the offering, Cain came up with his own.
Vincent Lane
242. Aegnor
I believe RJ had said that the weirdness with the power was definitely due to the use of the bowl, and NOT the big bang caused by Elayne.
diane heath
243. jadelollipop
Re: Suffa and Travelling. Would a damane be asked to share weaves or teach? I rather thought that Suffa and other AS damane would be trained to obey first.
They would not be allowed to weave a gateway without permission and we know not all of them know how.
Sharon E.
244. Sulin
MAT- I see you, son of a Maiden. Glad I gave you a chuckle. :) Oh, my kids think I'm nuts 24/7 (which is true I guess).

Far Dareis Mai carries the honor of the Car'a'Carn!

Jacy Clark
245. Amalisa

Verin has also met several FS, which is not usual for a rank and file BA.

Verin told Egwene that she had met with a "shrouded" Mesaana twice. Other than that, the only other Forsaken I can remember Verin having direct contact with was when she faced Graendal in battle at Shadar Logoth. Did I miss something?

As for Jarna's punishment... while a ter'angreal was the method, it wasn't the reason Ishy had her killed.
Publicly Gray, Jarna had never shown any interest in the ter'angreal no one knew a use for - until the day she became snared in one untried for centuries. How to activate it remained a mystery still. For ten days no one could reach her, only listen to her throat-wrenching shrieks. Most of the Tower though Jarna a model of virtue; when what could be recovered was buried, every sister in Tar Valon and every one who could reach the city in time attended the funeral.

Ishamael had established the Black Ajah way back during the Trolloc Wars.
"...Two thousand years ago I took my Trollocs across the world, and even among Aes Sedai I found those who knew despair, who knew the world could not stand before Shai'tan. For two thousand years the Black Ajah has dwelt among the others, unseen in the shadows. Perhaps even those who claim to help you."

Okay, maybe Ishy let the BA run about willy-nilly all that time, but I kind of doubt it. They are, truly, a "fifth column" operation. They must remain hidden until called upon by the Shadow. To do otherwise greatly increases the chances of discovery. Which is what happened when Jarna ordered the search for the Dragon Reborn, and the murder of any who might be the DR. Which is exactly what got her killed.

I'll accept the possibility that the BA might have had exclusive knowledge about the use of certain ter'angreal which it jealously protected. After all, the Forsaken would likely have a leg up on what the shiny AoL toys could do. Except that I can imagine that the Forsaken would also be likely to "jealously protect" that information, even from the BA. Trust is not exactly their strong suit. It took a desperate situation to drive the Keystone Coven (*lol* I love that name!) from the White Tower with a handful (compared to what the Tower actually has) of ter'angreal. I can imagine Liandrin et al being given a list of what they should take with them. No more and no less. They may not have even known fully what the items did; remember that Jeaine Caide nearly burns their boat up when she tries to use the black fluted rod.

Martine's amnesia... Since we don't know what *angreal she was studying at the time, we don't know if it could have produced amnesia or not. But there is one other incident that we know of: the Hot Rod (*snickers*). When Elayne woke up, she did know what ter'angreal she had been investigating but she had absolutely no recollection of what happened.

And, again, I put a lot of weight in Vandene's statement that Martine was the "last sister to really make a business of studying ter'angreal." Yeah, maybe her accident scared the rest away from trying, or maybe there weren't that many to begin with. According to Linda at The Thirteenth Depository, only three other AS besides Elayne can make them. Only Aveindha, and possibly Nynaeve, can Read them. So it stands to reason that not that many would be able to effectively study them, don't you think?
246. alreadymadwithdamane
jadelollipop 243
Secrets can be beaten out of a damane. Since one of the primary reasons for the raid was to capture a damane that knew the weave for Travelling, we can safely assume they have in mind some means for extracting it out of Suffa etal.
Brandon D
247. Ishmayl
@95 Freelancer

Wow... Usually you're one of the people on this thread I enjoy reading, but seriously? Without having the slightest idea as to the circumstances from my post, and without knowing that I may have been running late for a meeting, or had a specific reason to not waste the "15 seconds" it would have taken me to be sure of the spelling, you're going to pick apart the fact that I acknowledged that I may not have spelled something correctly? You don't find that just a little inane?

I apologize for wasting your time.

@231 jadelollipop
I think it's likely that Suffa will bend and deliver Traveling to the Seanchan. If she doesn't, I think it's also likely that some of the other Sisters who were captured in the raid know of Traveling, and someone will bend and break. However, after Veins of Gold, I think it's also possible and likely that Rand will end up being able to work something out with the Seanchan so that at least the Tower and other channelers don't have to fear the Seanchan being able to Travel.
Lynn McDonald
248. meal6225
Who actually taught Elaida to Travel? She knew it had been rediscovered, but did she actually see it done?
So many details jumbled in my "pushin 50" brain...
F Shelley
249. FSS
@248 - beonin, when she leaves the rebels and tries to get back in elaida's good graces...

BTW - who else has seen the recent draft of the TOM cover art? Moiraine here we come!
Hilde Sørensen
250. edlihs
Who actually taught Elaida to Travel? She knew it had been rediscovered, but did she actually see it done?

In KoD:The Dark One's Touch, chapter 2 Beonin Marinye shows Elaida the waives of both Skimming and Traveling. Elaida orders her to show the other new waivings.

Beonin is ordered to keep them to herself, but may show Tarna. Tarna shows the others of those who go to the Black Tower.
Eric Hughes
251. CireNaes
Sulin@225 and alreadymad@241

Freelancers answer @237 is pretty good. As Sulin and Freelancer pointed out, Cain's offering was given with an improper attitude. It was careless, thoughtless, and halfhearted as opposed to Abel's.

It also wasn't the proper minhat bikkuri: a cereal offering of the first fruits shown in Lev. 2 since it was not the best first fruits of the harvest and this is how we know all of that stuff about the state of Cain's heart.

Due to the mimicry of the Levitical system here it is easy to see that Cain didn't care enough to do a proper Consecratory offering. These types of offering emphasized the surrender of gifts to God and were an act of commitment from the sinner. They opened the way for fellowship via communal sacrifices. I think Free is right in that the point is not necessarily on blood atonement here (i.e., Expiatory offerings) so much as establishing who wants right fellowship with God. And if you want to approach the Lord then you need to do it His way.

Fellowship with God means Cain will then have a shot at 'ruling over' his sin that is crouching at the door waiting to devour him. God then gives Cain a second chance to do the right thing and we all know how well Cain responded to God's grace.

This stuff is sort of my bread and butter so I apologize for finding it difficult not to talk about it in the forum.
Tricia Irish
252. Tektonica
Has anyone besides Wetlander read Terez's new post on Theoryland? She put a link on the Open Thread @ 1083. (Nice response on Theoryland, Wet.)

I have many questions about it, which I also posted on the Open Thread. If any of you gurus could enlighten me, I'd sure appreciate it.
Jacy Clark
253. Amalisa

I did, and it was very interesting. And like Wetlandernw, it made me go ahead and join Theoryland. *lol* (Although "Amalisa" was already taken, and I had to fall back on an old RP name.)

I'm not a guru, but I'll mosey over to the Open thread as soon as I've read Leigh's latest! :D
Eric Hughes
254. CireNaes

I read it too and think the general premise is right on. Moving on to the next post though. See you there.
Sharon E.
255. Sulin
Tektonica- I read it too and had a lot of the same questions you had, which Terez answered. I joined Theoryland when I read the "Seed Singing the Pattern Shut" theory.
256. Freelancer
The doctrine of lamb sacrifice was established early on...

But not in Genesis 4. Cain could not be held accountable for a law not yet established. Cain's offering failed to please, not because it wasn't meat, but because it was given with no heart. God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Do you think He would have been displeased with Cain's non-meat offering had it been given with a pure desire to honor his Creator? That is not how God works. Cain's offering was for show, excluding true regard for whom it was offered.


I hadn't planned on addressing your response, but here goes. Are you saying Cain was the original author? Or are you saying that Aaron was, and used the writing of Genesis as an opportunity to vent his frustrations over being in Moses' shadow?
Don Barkauskas
257. bad_platypus
subwoofer @219: The American President reference FTW! (I'm not normally a big fan of romantic comedies, but I love that movie.)
258. Croaker
I thought the Sea Folk were pretty cool up till about this book. After that I started to really get sick of them. I've always wanted someone to just look at them and say, "Hey, you guys see any freaking ships around here? No? Well then I guess you’re in my country now so how bout you freaking shut it ya damn squids?” I mean jeez. Conceded much?
Marcus W
259. toryx
Freelancer @ 256:

I was posting in the spirit of your joke, actually. But since you went ahead and asked, I'm saying that whoever the original author (not Cain or Aaron but...some guy) was taking the opportunity in his writing to work out some unresolved frustrations he felt for his brother. Perhaps subconsciously.
260. Qtip the Sixth

I think you missed the point of the "sacrifice" to God. Abel, in giving a lamb, was providing a young animal, that could produce more young animals, thus sacrificing of his goods.
Cain, in contrast, brought the fruit of his harvest, but this did not lessen his ability to grow more from the same stock. Thus his sacrifice did not encompass a loss in his ability to produce more harvest. Abel's sacrifice was offering something of great value, which hurt his future ability to produce, Cain offered what came in his bounty. Like if Abel had offered the wool from his lamb, rather than the lamb.
Yes, it presaged a more perfect sacrifice, which the Lord himself would make, but was also about the willingness to give of your core stock, rather than the interest arising from it.

In my humble opinion, of course.
261. Herb888
I recently went on a week-long trip. To save a bit of money and protect the environment, I turned off the A/C and left the windows open. In the South. In July. I came home to discover an odd odor. Turns out I had neglected to put some pork chops purchased a couple days before leaving in the fridge. I found "summer ham" to be a very pungent epithet indeed.
William McDaniel
262. willmcd
It's enough of a pain to read these chapters now, but I remember well what it felt back in 1998 when we'd been waiting two-and-a-half years. TPoD was the shortest WoT book yet, and we'd experienced the longest wait yet (and the longest altogether, outside of the KoD-to-TGS wait precipitated by RJ's passing), and we were all hoping the next chapter would reveal who killed Asmodean or when Moiraine was coming back. What a waste of paper this seemed!
Terry McNamee
263. macster
Just happened to be thinking about it, and after doing some research I finally found what I think the mudra are which the seated angreal is doing.

The upright hand is a kapitthaka mudra (also known as the Smiling Buddha mudra--it fits her expression).

The hand on her lap is an apana mudra (used for grounding oneself in the earth's energies).

Generally speaking, it makes sense something used in the Age of Legends (and specifically for female channelers, who have to be calm and surrender so as to control saidar) would incorporate meditation gestures. As for it being "personal", that could be because the Aes Sedai who Seeded it could have had it made to her specifications, perhaps because she had researched spiritual teachings from our Age?

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