Mar 26 2010 1:56pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: A Crown of Swords, Part 18

Hey there, hi there, ho there, and welcome to another Wheel of Time Re-read post-type thingy!

Today’s entry covers Chapters 30 and 31 of A Crown of Swords, in which Chicks Totally Rule. Whoo! Yeah! Whoo! Yeah!

*pom pom*

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of information regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

Scheduling note: Next week may be wacky, as I am finally at long goddamn LAST moving into my brand-shiny-new Apartment. And can I just say, you have NO IDEA how thrilled I am that this is going to be over soon. Unless you live or have lived in New York City, in which case you probably know exactly how thrilled I am that this is going to be over soon, because HOLY HELL.

So that is all wonderful and cool, but it may introduce posting issues, as I don’t know how long it will take to get Internetty things up and running and, you know, just generally get my ducks in a row. Or even find my ducks, or unpack them. I’m just saying, there may be a shortfall of properly-aligned duckage for a bit.

So I’m going to try to get Friday’s post up as usual, but just be aware. HOWEVER, there is good news to follow: once I do have my waterfowl in a suitable parade formation, I intend to return to my previous schedule of two posts a week. You are allowed to show your pleasure.

Just don’t make me break out the hose, jeez.

And, that is how all that is, and it is generally awesome. And if you’ll click on through you can be treated to even MORE awesome. Because that is how we roll.

Before we start, I want to take a moment to give mad props and thanks to my commenters in the previous entry, for conducting (to my great relief) what is one of the more reasoned, tactful, and non-flammable discussions of the Mat/Tylin thing I’ve personally come across in WOT fandom.

And then staging Cage Deathmatches, of course. As is only right and proper. Y’all’re so adorable.


Chapter 30: The First Cup


What Happens
Elayne stands before Merilille, Adeleas, Vandene, Careane, and Sareitha in the Palace, and protests that she doesn’t understand why they are so upset, when she and Nynaeve have found the Bowl of the Winds. To herself, she thinks they as good as have done so, anyway, judging from Nalesean’s admittedly rather confused report of what Mat had shouted at him earlier. A visibly angry Merilille answers that she has endangered a secret kept for over two thousand years; Elayne demands to know what secret, but Vandene tells her there will time enough for that “when [she’s] been properly raised”. Careane suggests that perhaps Elayne should not be faulted for revealing a secret she knew nothing about, but Sareitha quickly counters that Tower law does not allow for excuses, and Elayne notices that the women are arranged as they would be for a formal trial. Sareitha suggests that “the child”, and Nynaeve as well, be confined in the palace until they leave, along with “regular doses of the slipper”.

Elayne swallowed. Confined? Perhaps they did not need to name this a trial for it to be one. Sareitha might not yet have achieved the ageless face, but the weight of the other women’s years pressed at Elayne. […] Not one of them approached her own strength in the Power, but . . . All that experience as Aes Sedai, all that knowledge. All that . . . authority. A heavy reminder that she was only eighteen and had been in novice white a year ago.

Elayne tries once more to defend herself, but Merilille cuts her off, and proposes they pass sentence. The others consent, and Merilille is about to speak when they are interrupted by Merilille’s maid, Pol, who is very nervous about interrupting Aes Sedai but has a note for Elayne brought by the Queen herself, who said it was about “the child’s” mother. Furious that even the servants are calling her that now, Elayne snatches the letter without waiting for permission and opens it. It is from Jaichim Carridin, who tells her he has “joyous news”, that Morgase is alive and the guest of Pedron Niall in Amador, and offers Elayne an escort through Altara to be reunited with her mother.

The paper crumpled in her fist. How dare he? The pain of her mother’s death, without even a body to be buried, was only beginning to fade, and Carridin dared mock her this way?

Elayne flings the paper in the air and channels Fire to burn it to ashes. Merilille leaps up and shouts that Elayne was not given permission to channel, and Elayne interrupts her to tell Pol to leave, now. Pol obeys, surprised that she is doing so.

“What has gotten into you, child?” Pure fury submerged the remnants of Merilille’s regathered calm. “Release the Source immediately, or I vow, I’ll fetch a slipper myself this minute!”

“I am Aes Sedai.” The words came out like winter stone, and Elayne meant them to. Carridin’s lies and these women. Merilille threatened to slipper her? They would acknowledge her rightful place as a sister. She and Nynaeve had found the Bowl! As good as, anyway, and the arrangements for its use were under way. “You propose to punish me for endangering a secret apparently known only to sisters, but no one bothered to tell me this secret when I attained the shawl. You suggest punishing me like a novice or Accepted, but I am Aes Sedai. I was raised to the shawl by Egwene al’Vere, the Amyrlin you claim to serve. If you deny that Nynaeve and I are Aes Sedai, then you deny the Amyrlin Seat who sent me to find the Bowl of the Winds, which we have done. I will not have it! I call you to account, Merilille Ceandevin. Submit to the will of the Amyrlin Seat, or I will call judgment on you as a rebellious traitor!”

Merilille is speechless, and Careane and Sareitha look about to choke to death, but Vandene and Adeleas look at Elayne as if seeing her for the first time. Elayne channels to float a chair over to herself, sits, and tells Merilille she might as well sit too; she is startled when Merilille actually obeys. Still inwardly enraged, Elayne coolly informs Merilille that her authority comes from the Hall, but Elayne’s and Nynaeve’s come from the Amyrlin, and therefore supercedes Merilille’s. Merilille starts to splutter a protest.

“Merilille!” Elayne said sharply, leaning forward. “Do you still deny the authority of your Amyrlin? Do you still dare?” Merilille’s mouth worked soundlessly. She wet her lips. She shook her head jerkily. Elayne felt a thrill of exultation; all that about Merilille taking direction was stuff and nonsense, of course, but she would be acknowledged. Thom and her mother both said you must begin by asking for ten to get one.

She reminds herself not to push it too far, and instructs Vandene and Adeleas to fill her in on this secret they say she endangered; do they mean to say the Tower has known about these “Kin” all along? Adeleas explains that there have always been women put out of the Tower for failing tests or various other reasons, and a number of them gathered in what would eventually become Ebou Dar, taking in wilders and others put out of the Tower. Elayne is confused, because Reanne et al had seemed very concerned about making Elayne and Nynaeve prove they weren’t wilders, but Adeleas continues that none of the women stayed long, and it is supposed that after a while they gave up the Power and went off to do something else. Elayne thinks that she doesn’t know why the Aes Sedai assume the Power is that easy to give up. Vandene goes on that the Tower has always known about the Kin, who have always behaved exactly as the Tower would wish them to, never drawing attention to themselves. Elayne briefly interrupts to ask Careane to bring Adeleas and Vandene some tea; Careane looks startled, but obeys, and Elayne asks why they haven’t been scattered long ago. Adeleas answers, because of the runaways, and then begins to ramble.

“Runaways,” Elayne prompted, taking a cup from Careane with a smile of thanks. She had not asked one for herself, but she realized absently that the woman had offered her the first.

Adeleas explains that the Kin help runaways from the Tower, and no runaway has made it off the island without their help since the Trolloc Wars. This way, the Tower knows nine out of ten times exactly where a runaway has gone; before the Kin, they lost two out of three. Elayne understands, then, why the Tower has guarded the secret of the Kin so jealously, as it preserves its own reputation for infallibility. She stands, and to her surprise so do all the others, even Merilille.

Vandene noticed her surprise, and smiled. “Another thing you might not know. We are a contentious lot in many ways, we Aes Sedai, each jealous of her place and prerogatives, but when someone is placed above us or stands above us, we tend to follow her fairly meekly for the most part. However we might grumble about her decisions in private.”

“Why, so we do,” Adeleas murmured happily, as if she had just discovered something.

Merilille took a deep breath, absorbing herself for a moment in straightening her skirts. “Vandene is right,” she said. “You stand above us in yourself, and I must admit, you apparently have been placed above us. If our behavior calls for penance . . . Well, you will tell us if it does. Where are we to follow you? If I may ask?” There was no sarcasm in any of that; if anything, her tone was more polite than Elayne had heard out of her before.

Astonished, Elayne suppresses an urge to protest that she is too young and inexperienced, and reminds herself that Egwene is the same age as she. She smiles and tells the others that the first thing to remember is that they are all sisters, and must work together, and starts telling them her own information about the Kin. She thinks Nynaeve is going to die from shock when she finds out about this.

Moghedien is being carried through the streets of Ebou Dar when she spots “the woman” alighting from a carriage.

A wide feathered mask covered her face more completely than Moghedien’s did, but she would have known that determined stride, known that woman, from any angle in any light.

Moghedien yells for the chair bearers to stop, and watches as Nynaeve boards a boat. She is frightened of Moridin’s reprisal should he discover her deviation from his orders, but decides to risk just a short delay. She leaps out of her chair and rushes to an inn, flinging people out of her way with the Power, and Compels the innkeeper inside to show her to the roof, fuming about the rich red and black silk dress she wore, knowing it to be servant’s livery, however elegant. On the roof, she debates killing the innkeeper but decides to Compel her to go to sleep instead, deciding it is less risky to leave her maybe slightly brain-damaged, but alive. The innkeeper hurries off to obey.

As the door thumped down flat into the dusty white-tiled roof, Moghedien gasped at the sudden feel of fingers stroking her mind, palping her soul. Moridin did that sometimes; a reminder, he said, as if she needed any more. She almost looked around for him; her skin pebbled as though at a sudden icy breeze. The touch vanished, and she shivered again. Coming or going, it did remind her. Moridin himself could appear anywhere at any time. Haste.

She finds the boat on the water, but just as she channels balefire, she is startled by pigeons taking flight, which throws off her aim; instead of punching through the passenger cabin, the balefire had destroyed the rowers at the front of the vessel. She snarls, but sees that because of the effects of balefire, the boat sinks almost instantaneously. Moghedien suddenly realizes with terror that she has channeled enormous amounts of saidar in broad daylight, and races back down to her chair, commanding her bearers to run. They obey, and she shakes with fear.

He had not forbidden this. He might forgive, or even ignore her independent action here, if she carried out his instructions swiftly, efficiently. That was her only hope. She was going to make Falion and Ispan crawl!


Seriously, I think I clapped, the first time I read this scene with Elayne. I put down the book, and clapped, and picked it up again. And ignored the funny looks from the guy at the next table, because OH SNAP, GIRLFRIEND.

(I really should stop reading books that may contain Crowning Moments of Awesome in coffee shops.)

(Warning: do not click that link. Seriously, we may never see you again.)

Of course, as CMoAs go, even just within the Wheel of Time this one is not even close to being the most awesome, but I must say it holds a special place in my heart, even more so than some of the empirically more awesome Moments of Awesome in the series. I think this is mainly due to three factors.

First, to date this is really the only CMoA Elayne has had, all by herself. I’ve always felt she’s been a tad shortchanged in this area compared to the rest of our Super Six, and thus I kind of feel obligated to give this one extra-special appreciation.

Secondly, Elayne’s turning point here was even more of a great payoff than it otherwise might have been, simply because it’s where we finally come out of quite a stretch of crappy happenings in the plot, where many of Our Heroes have been subjected to humiliation after humiliation, and so the turnaround is made even more dramatically gratifying by comparison.

(This is what people who point out all the crappy shit that happens in ACOS when I say it’s my favorite in the series aren’t getting, I think. The thing is, I never said crappy shit doesn’t happen in ACOS; I’m saying the payoff of Awesomeness we get as a result makes it all worth it. Which is not something I can honestly say about every novel in the series. More on this later.)

Anyway. And lastly, I think I just appreciated this moment because it’s one of the few Moments of Awesome in WOT that is accomplished not by giant displays of Phenomenal Cosmic Power or Rampant Badassery, but by doing something that anyone could reasonably picture themselves doing. Which is, to finally reach your social event horizon of Bullshit Up With Which You Will No Longer Put.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for giant displays of Phenomenal Cosmic Power and/or Rampant Badassery (this is an epic fantasy I’m recapping here), but I find Elayne’s facedown of Merilille in some ways even more satisfying. Because we have all, without exception, dreamed of having the balls to finally stand up to your oppressor/bully/personal nemesisisis/pointy-haired boss/whatever and just be all Sit the goddamn hell down and shut the goddamn hell up, you no-talent assclown – and have it actually work. Instead of, you know, just getting you fired or sued. Or arrested.

Real life sucks, sometimes.

But in fiction, contrariwise, you should never underestimate the power of getting really, really, royally pissed. The “royally” part, of course, being rather literal in Elayne’s case. And it is beautiful to behold. So beautiful that I’m not even particularly interested in revisiting the silliness of letting an eighteen-year-old boss you around just because she has the biggest muscles, because the Rule of Cool always trumps Fridge Logic.

(Seriously, TV Tropes is like the indelible ink of pop culture criticism; once it seeps into your vocabulary, it is practically impossible to get back out again. I still can’t decide whether to thank the person who first directed me to that site, or smack them. Hard.)

So, in conclusion, yay Elayne awesome.

Random note here, in that most of the time Jordan doesn’t tend to be terribly overt in altering his writing style to indicate a character’s “voice”, but Elayne is something of an exception. Because Elayne is rather dramatic, you see, and she really likes to emphasize her words, with italics. This is something I can see some people finding rather annoying, but as I have something of an itchy <  i > finger myself (shaddup), I’m going to err on the side of not throwing stones in my little glass house.

(I’m even worse about the italics when I’m talking. Think of that, and shudder. Shudder.)

Oh, and also, Moghedien is in this chapter. And I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that she really, really, really doesn’t like Nynaeve. Obsessive hatred much, Mogs? Also, mindtraps now very high on my list of things I am glad do not actually exist, because eurgh.

Chapter 31: Mashiara

What Happens
In the boat cabin, Nynaeve scowls as she thinks of how her weather sense is telling her that a terrible storm should be on the way. She mocks Elayne’s rationale for sending Nynaeve to the Sea Folk instead of herself, thinking that Elayne just wanted to avoid seeing Nesta again, and also thinks that Aviendha had seemed bizarrely almost frightened at Nynaeve’s attempt to get her to go instead. The boat lurches, eliciting a curse from Nynaeve, which she then berates herself for.

If she had to endure those Sea Folk for long, she would have as much filth coming off of her tongue as Mat did. She did not want to think about him. One more day folding her hands for that . . . that man . . . and she would yank every hair out of her head! Not that he had demanded anything unreasonable so far, but she kept waiting for him to, and his manner . . . !

She tries to distract herself by thinking about the extremely rich outfit and jewels she’s wearing, in an attempt to impress the Sea Folk. Her necklace is from Tylin (who called it “a gift for bringing Mat”, which Nynaeve doesn’t get), and Nynaeve is thinking about Aviendha’s over-the-top reaction to her asking to borrow her rose-and-thorns ivory bracelet when she senses saidar being channeled in huge amounts, and then suddenly finds herself floundering underwater. She swims upward and finds an air pocket in the otherwise submerged and upside down cabin, just as the boat hits the bottom of the river. Nynaeve doesn’t understand what happened, but knows she has to get out before the air pocket runs out. She swims down to where the door to the cabin should be, only to find it is completely blocked in with mud. She realizes she is trapped.

She hammered a fist against the seat until she felt it bruise, fighting for the anger that would allow her to channel. She would not die. Not here. Alone. No one would know where she had died. No grave, just a corpse rotting at the bottom of the river. Her arm fell with a splash. She labored for breath. Flecks of black and silver danced in her eyes; she seemed to be looking down a tube. No anger, she realized dimly. She kept trying to reach for saidar, but without any belief that she would touch it, now. She was going to die here after all. No hope. No Lan. And with hope gone, flickering on the edge of consciousness like a guttering candle flame, she did something she had never done before in her life. She surrendered completely.

Saidar flowed into her, filled her.

She was only half-aware of the wood above her suddenly bulging outward, bursting. In rushing bubbles of air she drifted up, out through the hole in the hull into darkness.

She attempts to swim, and then is grabbed by something; in a panic, Nynaeve lashes out and feels her fist connect with something, but then tries to scream and almost drowns herself. Half-conscious, she lets herself be pulled to the surface, where someone squeezes the water out of her lungs and tows her to a boat. Two deckhands haul her aboard and then turn to help in her rescuer, and Nynaeve vomits all over the deck. Then she hears Lan’s voice, and almost wails aloud, horrified that he should see her like this after so long. She embraces saidar and channels all the water off herself and washes the vomit away, then leaps up and turns to face him. She thinks he is the most beautiful man she’s ever seen, and is admiring him when she sees the bruise on his face.

“Oh, no! Oh, Lan, I’m so sorry! I didn’t mean to!” She was not really aware of crossing the space between them; she was just there, stretching up on toetips to lay fingers gently on his injury. A deft weave of all Five Powers, and his tanned cheek was unblemished. But he might have been hurt elsewhere. She spun the weaves to Delve him; new scars made her wince inside, and there was something odd, but he seemed healthy as a prime bull. He was also very wet, from saving her. She dried him as she had herself; water splashed around his feet. She could not stop touching him. Both hands traced his hard cheeks, his wonderful blue eyes, his strong nose, his firm lips, his ears. She combed that silky black hair into place with her fingers, adjusted the braided leather band that held it. Her tongue seemed to have a life of its own, too. “Oh, Lan,” she murmured. “You really are here.” Somebody giggled. Not her—Nynaeve al’Meara did not giggle—but somebody did. “It isn’t a dream. Oh, Light, you’re here. How?”

Lan tells her that he would have been here yesterday if Mandarb hadn’t lost a shoe, and one of the deckhands murmurs that she may be Aes Sedai, but she is “one duckling who means to stuff herself in that wolf’s jaws”; Nynaeve flushes and hustles Lan into the cabin (grabbing his stuff with Air). Inside, she goes to touch him again, and Lan tells her quietly that Myrelle now holds his bond, and is lending him to Nynaeve until she finds her own Warder. Nynaeve slaps him, three times, cursing him, and asks how could he when he knew she was waiting; seeing that her slaps are having no effect, she tries punching him in the ribs, but only succeeds in hurting her hand. Lan tells her she should be glad she is not bonded to him, and she seizes his hair with Air and tells him not to dare give her “that drivel” about a widow’s weeds and so on. Lan answers that he debated not telling her about what happens when a Warder’s bond to his Aes Sedai is snapped, but decided she had a right to know, and explains; Nynaeve is horrified, understanding now the cold bleak look in his eyes, and tries not to cry.

“So you see,” he concluded with a smile that touched only his mouth; an accepting smile, “when it’s done, she will have a year or more of pain, and I will still be dead. You are spared that. My last gift to you, Mashiara.” Mashiara. His lost love.

Nynaeve struggles to control herself, and informs him that she waited and wished with Moiraine, but refuses to do so for Myrelle; Myrelle will give Nynaeve Lan’s bond (if she has to “drag the woman to Tar Valon and back by her hair”, she thinks to herself). When Lan starts to protest, she cuts him off and lies that in the Two Rivers, when a man gives a woman a ring, it means that they are betrothed, and now they are getting married, today. Lan answers that he’s dreamed of that, but it cannot be, and starts to say something about Myrelle; Nynaeve gags him with Air and politely tells him she would appreciate it if that name were not mentioned again.

He nodded, and she released the flow, but as soon as he had worked his jaw a moment, he said, “Naming no names, Nynaeve, you know she’s aware of everything I feel, through the bond. If we were man and wife . . . ”

She thought her face might burst into flame. She had never thought of that! Bloody Myrelle! “Is there any way to make sure she knows it is me?” she said finally, and her cheeks nearly did flash to fire. Especially when he fell back against the cabin wall laughing in astonishment.

“Light, Nynaeve, you are a hawk! Light! I haven’t laughed since . . . ” His mirth faded, the coldness that had dimmed in his eyes for an instant returning. “I do wish it could be, Nynaeve, but—”

“It can and will,” she broke in. Men always seemed to get the upper hand if you let them talk too long.

She plunks herself in his lap, and tells him he belongs to her, and she to him, and he will be her Warder and her husband, and she will not let him die, and he might as well accept that she is going to be stubborn about this. Lan dryly agrees about the stubborn part. Then she wonders where they are going, and Lan tells her he told the boatmen to take them back to the dock. Nynaeve resists getting angry with him, and tells him she can’t go back yet, she has to go to the Sea Folk. Lan tells her what he saw when her boat sank, and that it had to be balefire. Nynaeve breathes, “Moghedien”, and Lan reassures her that if she has to face Moghedien again, he will make sure she is angry enough to channel.

“You’ll never make me angry again,” she began, and stopped, staring at him wide-eyed. “I’m not angry,” she said slowly.

“Not now, but when you need to be—”

“I’m not angry,” she laughed. She kicked her feet in delight, and pounded her fists on his chest, laughing. Saidar filled her, not just with life and joy, but this time, with awe. With feathery flows of Air, she stroked his cheeks. “I am not angry, Lan,” she whispered.

“Your block is gone.” He grinned, sharing her delight, but the grin put no warmth into his eyes.

I will take care of you, Lan Mandragoran, she promised silently. I will not let you die.

Suddenly she thinks of something, and asks about the crew and bodyguards on her boat, but Lan shakes his head, to her sorrow. She gets up and asks him to tell the boatmen to turn around, and find a comb if they have one. Lan sweeps her a bow (“As you command, Aes Sedai”), and leaves. Speculating that he is laughing at her, Nynaeve bets herself that someone aboard the Sea Folk ship could perform a marriage.

And from what she had seen of the Sea Folk, she would wager Lan Mandragoran would find himself promising to do as he was told. They would see who laughed then.

Elayne stands at the Kin’s door and knocks, hard. The maid (Cedora) answers, and begins to berate Elayne angrily when Elayne lowers her mask, but then Merilille, Careane, Vandene, and Adeleas (and Sareitha) reveal their faces; Cedora panicks and tries to shut the door, but Birgitte darts in and grabs her in an armlock, and Elayne tells her to take them to Reanne. Cedora leads them upstairs to a room where Reanne and a dozen more women are conferring; most of them show visible signs of aging, and all of them can channel. Reanne jumps up in a fury at the sight of Elayne, but stops dead as Merilille et al enter; one of the other Kin drops down in a faint, but no one else moves.

No one seemed to breathe. Elayne felt a great desire to shout “boo” just to see what would happen.

Reanne tries to calm herself, then wobbles over to Merilille, sinks to her knees and begs forgiveness, assuring them that they are “only a few friends”, whatever “this girl” told them; Merilille cuts her off to tell her that she must address herself to “Elayne Sedai”.

Reanne’s head jerked up in a most satisfactory way. She stared at Merilille, then by slow increments turned eyes as big as her face to Elayne. She licked her lips. She drew a deep, long breath. Twisting around on her knees to face Elayne, she bowed her head once more. “I beg your forgiveness, Aes Sedai,” she said leadenly. “I did not know. I could not—” Another long, hopeless breath. “Whatever punishment you decree, we accept humbly, of course, but please, I beg you to believe that—”

“Oh, stand up,” Elayne broke in impatiently. She had wanted to make this woman acknowledge her as much as she had Merilille or any of the others, but the groveling sickened her. “That’s right. Stand on your feet.” She waited until Reanne complied, then walked over and sat in the woman’s chair. There was no need for cringing, but she wanted no doubts who was in charge.

She asks Reanne if she still denies knowing about the Bowl, and Reanne answers a bit disingenuously that none of them would dream of using a ter’angreal or any object of the Power, and states again that they are just a few friends. Elayne informs her that the Tower has always known about the Kin; one of the other women shrieks a little, and another faints. Reanne looks at the other Aes Sedai, and sees what she interprets as disapproval or distaste on their faces, though Elayne knows that’s due to the fact that they disapprove of what Elayne is about to tell the Kin.

They had all accepted Elayne’s decision, but no amount of “Yes, Elayne . . . ” could make them like it. They would have been here two hours ago if not for a great deal of “But, Elayne . . . ” tossed in. Sometimes leading meant herding.

Reanne asks if she means to destroy the Kin, and Elayne answers that the Amrylin Seat wishes any woman who can channel be connected to the Tower, and the offer is open to any of the Kin who wish to accept. The Kin are frozen in shock a moment, and then begin babbling excitedly until Reanne shuts them up. Reanne asks if they really can go to the Tower, and when Elayne confirms it, whispers “I can be Green” to herself, and Elayne has to resist the impulse to hug her. Merilille is not so thrilled, and asks Reanne how many Kin are they talking about here; Reanne answers that she can’t imagine anyone refusing, and says that at the moment there are one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three of them. Misunderstanding the shocked silence, Reanne asks if they are disappointed, expecting more.

“We are not disappointed in the least,” Elayne assured her, making soothing gestures. Disappointed? She very nearly giggled hysterically. There were nearly twice as many Kinswomen as there were Aes Sedai! Egwene could never say she had not done her part to bring women who could channel to the Tower. But if the Kin refused wilders . . .

Elayne brings up the Bowl again, but before Reanne can tell her where it is, they all sense a woman channeling downstairs, followed by a scream. Reanne starts for the door, but Elayne stops her and murmurs she isn’t Green yet (Reanne smiles), and the Aes Sedai and Birgitte head for the door. Mat enters, pushing Derys ahead of him, and grins, saying he thought he’d find them here when he found “a bloody great lot of Warders drinking at my least favorite tavern”. He tells Elayne he just got back from following a Wise Woman to the Rahad, to a building he’d bet anything has the Bowl in it. Derys tries to kick him, and Elayne informs Mat that they already know all about it, enjoying his stunned look. Then she feels disapproval from Birgitte, and steels herself and adds that it is still all due to him, and thanks him, to his astonishment. Mat recovers, and proposes they get the bloody Bowl and leave Ebou Dar that night; Elayne counters that they are not roaming the Rahad in darkness, nor are they leaving Ebou Dar until they’ve used the Bowl. Mat tries to argue, but is distracted when Derys starts chasing him around the room, trying to kick him again. Elayne asks Reanne how old she is (a question she could not have brought herself to ask an Aes Sedai).

The woman hesitated, glancing at Mat, but he was still dodging to keep a grinning Birgitte between him and Derys. “My next naming day,” Reanne said as if it was the most ordinary thing in the world, “will be my four hundred and twelfth.”

Merilille fainted dead away.


I am a You-Tubing fool this post, I swear. But sometimes a good sound clip is worth a thousand written representations of me jumping around and yelling “WHOO!”s of triumphant geekery. Though we can do those too, of course.


*jumps around*

There, see?

My initial reaction to this scene (and I don’t think I’m alone here) was a dropped jaw of Holy Shit, For REALS?? At this point Nynaeve’s block had become such a seemingly immovable (and regularly worked-around) roadblock that I had more or less concluded it was always going to be there, as a kind of permanent handicap for Nynaeve, who after all was (at this point) the most powerful female channeler for the Light.

Of course, in retrospect that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, since there are plenty of other characters on both sides of the conflict with far greater strength in the Power than Nynaeve already running around completely handicap-free (well, mostly – Rand’s got definite issues, at least), and they’re not even all guys. (Well, I suppose you could fight about that, since we don’t know when precisely Stupid-Powerful Lanfear became Only-Mildly-Dumb-Powerful Cyndane, but whatever.)

In other news, I do love me a parenthetical aside. Possibly even more than italics!

Anyway. It’s interesting to compare this CMoA with Elayne’s in the previous chapter. There’s a certain amount of clever irony in that peacemaker Elayne gets her awesome on by finally getting full-on spitting mad, while Ms. Anger Non-Management Nynaeve gets hers by finally not getting angry. I See What You Did There, Mr. Jordan. Nice.

The other element of total awesome to the scene, of course, is Nynaeve’s reunion with Lan, which is one of my favorite romantic interludes in WOT, probably because it involves Nynaeve, and therefore I find it both hilarious and touching at the same time. Her line, “Is there any way to make sure she knows it is me?”, is practically a CMoA all by itself. HAH. Priceless.

Meanwhile, the results of Elayne’s CMoA continue to bear fruit in the (temporary) resolution of the Kin storyline. I admit I got a rather unhealthy amount of vicarious satisfaction out of Reanne’s comeuppance, though it may be rather balanced in that I genuinely went “aw” when she whispered about becoming a Green.

I didn’t understand initially why the Kin were made such a big deal out of in ACOS, but later it becomes clear that the purpose here was to set up one of the Tower’s biggest fails, in its assumption that channelers are a much rarer commodity than they actually are. This is emphasized by Elayne’s thoughts about the Kin’s refusal to take in wilders; if the Kin only take in Tower rejects and runaways, and at that outnumber Aes Sedai two to one, how many more wilders (or women who have never been taught) must be wandering around out there?

Which, of course, comes into play when Egwene scrounges up a thousand new novices on her way to Tar Valon. One must assume this is eventually going to be a decisive factor in the Last Battle, that someone on the Light side thought to tap this resource, because you know for damn sure the villains are doing the same. I mean, I assume at some point we’re going to see the much-hyped Dreadlords we’ve heard so much about.

Also, I’ve said this before, but you have to love the Tower’s sheer arrogance in assuming that other women would simply give up using their Phenomenal Cosmic Power, just because they don’t get to be in the Aes Sedai Sooper Sekrit Club. Many points go to the Supergirls for always thinking this outlook was idiotic, though I think many of the Aes Sedai who actually got out in the world (like Moiraine and Cadsuane) were perfectly well aware it was nonsense as well; they just didn’t bother to disabuse their ivory-towered compatriots of the notion. Which is a whole separate kind of fail, actually, but that’s another topic.

We also see Elayne continuing the Supergirl policy of actually asking non-Aes Sedai politely for things and offering options to people instead of bulldozing them, which I gather is what Merilille et al’s objections were based around. And granted, from a strictly practical expediency point of view being nice to people is the less efficient way to get them to actually do what you want them to, but all things considered I much prefer it when my heroes maintain the moral high ground, even at the expense of pragmatism. So There.

Hokay, there may be more to say here but I is fork-sticking Done, and so here’s where we stop. I will keep you guys posted on the status of, um, posting, and until then, wish me Moving Luck!

Charlotte Giurgiu
1. almdoipad

Zokay. Now that I have actually read the post - concurrence! These scenes make me giggle every time. As *annoying* as I generally find Elayne to be, this chapter finally gave her some substance, IMHO.

Nynaeve has always reminded me of a mini-SWMNBN. And since I am in the pro-SWMNBN camp, I've been particularly drawn to her. I love that she finally had to surrender and found saidar with that peace. She's not like me, no, not at all.

Awesome post! Can't wait to be back to our regularly scheduled posting!

Thanks Leigh

edit: To actually comment
2. earlgrey
What happened? You posted then you left. Confusion reigns.
Hugh Arai
3. HArai
I have to say although Nynaeve and Elayne often act in ways that annoy me, I agree they were both pretty awesome here. I feel the same way about a lot of WoT characters: when you see what they're really capable of, seeing what they're often willing to settle for is frustrating.
4. rosetintdworld
I don't agree with aCoS being the best book in WoT, and Elayne is certainly nowhere near my favorite character, but "The First Cup" may actually be my favorite scene in the entire series.

I have no rational explanation for this whatsoever. Anyway, thanks for doing the scene justice. Great post.
Dan Maus
5. UncleDan
Jordan did a good job on the pacing of the river scene here. The first time I read it, it never occurred to me Ny's block was gone until she realized it herself, and I had an idea it would be Lan's return that would mark the time of it's removal. Thanks for the great re-caps Leigh.
Jennifer B
6. JennB
Yay for both of these chapters. Nynaeve's block and marriage were something I had been looking forward to forever and I was so happy when I finally got them. Elayne's confrontation with Reanne also made me happy.
Lannis .
7. Lannis
Yay! Two posts a week! Wa-HOO! Looking forward to it, Leigh, you know, after that whole duckage debacle is cleared up...

Speaking of ducks...

“one duckling who means to stuff herself in that wolf’s jaws”


And I do love the double bombshell of the block being broken then BAM! here's Lan! Ah, yes... very good indeed!

Though admittedly, having been a fan of the Nynaeve-Lan romance, the chapter title kind of gave it away even on the first read... because, you know, I'd read tGH literally 5 times by that point... XD
8. Wolfger
OK. Mayhap I just have a filthy mind, but laughed out loud when I read:

Nynaeve flushes and hustles Lan into the cabin (grabbing his stuff with Air).

I also like that both Nynaeve and Elayne are so happy that everything is working out fine, and both get more than they bargained for in the end. (Nynaeve's marriage vows being not *quite* what she was expecting, and Elayne being saddled with the Kin for *farking ever.*
Jennifer B
9. JennB
Yesterday I started thinking about all the "ewww" comments regarding Tylin's age relative to Mat and while I am not attracted to older men, I know that some people are. I was wondering if people feel the same way about the age difference between Nynaeve and Lan.

It doesn't bother me because I am not her, but it makes me very sad because even if Lan dies of old age, she will still outlive him by at least 500 years.

(Though I admit it does bother me in movies where the 40-50 something actor is always paired with the barely 20 something actress. But this is a book and their ages are actually part of the plot. Nynaeve is definately not just eye candy hanging on the heroes arm.)
April Vrugtman
10. dwndrgn
Moving Luck Leigh!!

(and thanks for championing the parenthetical aside!)
Steven Pattingale
11. Pattingale

And ... yay postage! or.. posting? posty stuff?
Jennifer B
12. JennB
By the way, I love how Nynaeve refuses to take Lan's crap here. I also love how her assumptions about Sea Folk marriage vows are soooo wrong here. I like how it balances out their relationship, since Nynaeve can't even see her own husband as an equal without formal rules.
13. Denari6
I am not sure how many times have reread ACoS. I know whats going to happen more or less and yet I can't help but smile and feel all warm and fuzzy when I read about Nyneave and Lan. Next to Mat, these 2 chars are my favorite. I never considered the placement of the scenes before. Elayne finds her anger while Nynaeve conquers hers, (somewhat). I do get a little whiff of an after school special or mebbe some Yoda like wisdom here:

powerful you maybe, if you surrender

righteous anger you will need and defeat the bullies, you will

Leigh, I am glad you have found a pad and I look forward to reading more post, (your demanding public).


Cagematches FTW. We really need to cross over~

Richard Rahl Vs Rand Althor?

Darken Rahl vs Moridin

DO vs the Keeper

Pooh Bear vs Buggs Bunny
14. Alfvaen
I agree, these are totally the two best chapters in the book, and it's even almost worth putting up with the mind-numbing frustration that preceded them. (I'm thinking mostly of the previous Kin encounter here.) Just like it's mostly worth putting up with Mat being tylinated because of how it leads to his later tuonation.

Though, as someone who was initially attached to the "we're breeding channeling out of the human race" theory, the size of the Kin was the last nail in the coffin, after the Wise Ones and the Asha'man.
Karen Jacobs
15. KJacobs
Mashiara. Gives me goosebumps every time! This is one of my all time favorite scenes. Thanks Leigh!
Janet Hopkins
16. JanDSedai
re: age difference
Nyneave is older that she looks- pushing 30. And Lan is not yet 50. But, yeah, Nyn is going to outlive Lan by a considerable measure, even if Lan does not die in the Last Battle. It's not the 10-15 years that Morgause has on Tallenvor that makes her antsy, but that she has always been with older men, (and that fact that she still feels some compulsion from Rahvin...).

So, age differences are not that important in WOT.
Ron Garrison
17. Man-0-Manetheran
A great pair of chapters! Leigh, I never noticed the irony of Elayne's breakthrough by anger and Nyn's by the lack thereof. This is why we love the re-reads with you at the helm.

Good luck with the move-in (duck organization, et al) Parenthetical and italics!
Josh Matthews
18. jdm
Leigh, might I ask you to use a different word instead of retarded?
19. Silvertip
You're assuming we haven't already seen the "much-hyped Dreadlords?" Methinks perhaps we have ...

Captain Hammer
20. Randalator
We need more TV Tropes because rickrolling got old, guys.

Although it makes it exceedingly difficult to talk to non-tropers about...well...stuff in general, because you'll inevitably cite trope after trope and they're constantly like "ee-wha...?".

And yeah, don't click it unless you don't have any plans for the rest of the day...

Oh, right...WoT. I knew I forgot something. Yay, Elayne! Yay, Nynaeve! God, I wish someone told Moggy that she broke Nynaeve's block. And then took a picture of her...that would be priceless...
Bonnie Andrews
21. misfortuona
Two of the best chapters in the WOT!!!

Seriously love these and reread Nyn and Lan's reunion two or three times each re-read.

Thank you for doing such an excellent job Leigh, and Enjoy the oportunity to that moving brings. That is divesting yourself of all the junk we tend to pack away forever.

Pooh Bear v Bugs Bunny – ROFLMAO
It would have to be Pooh, but I can’t for the life of me figure out how that fight might go.

Mis-Mashiara lover
Richard Fife
22. R.Fife
I am such a contrary S.O.B. These chapters, while at first somewhat vindicating, in retrospect annoy me. Not so much Nynaeve, but more Elayne. It is yet another example of "the only way to get what you want from a bully is to bully them." Granted, Elayne makes up for it some with her treatment of the Kin, but more or less, she assumes absolute authority over the AS and the Kin, attempts to disregard Mat doing his job, and as I recall, she isn't all that agreeable with Nynaeve on the idea of giving the Kin backbones.

So yeah, the imperious Queen that is Elayne, in my opinion, is really not any better than the typical Aes Sedai that bulldozes past whatever she needs to so that she'll get her way.
John Pigott
23. AbEnd
Wow! A re-read and a woot-off on the same day! Super!
24. Hopper
Vandene noticed her surprise, and smiled. “Another thing you might not know. We are a contentious lot in many ways, we Aes Sedai, each jealous of her place and prerogatives, but when someone is placed above us or stands above us, we tend to follow her fairly meekly for the most part. However we might grumble about her decisions in private.”

“Why, so we do,” Adeleas murmured happily, as if she had just discovered something.

For some reason this is one of my favorite quotes in this book. Not sure if its because we actually see an Aes Sedai remark about how silly Aes Sedai can be, but I love the nod to Elayne and Adeleas's happiness at hearing this pointed out.
Tess Laird
25. thewindrose
I will comment later - but wanted to remind you all that RobMRobM has given a 10 minute warning for the second cage-match.

Birgit F
26. birgit
And with hope gone, flickering on the edge of consciousness like a guttering candle flame, she did something she had never done before in her life. She surrendered completely.
Saidar flowed into her, filled her.

ACoS ch. 31

"It seems Ryne was wrong as well as a Darkfriend. You were better than he."
Lan shook his head slightly. "He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you're dead."

NS ch. 26

That was the hardest part to learn, really; how to master saidar by submitting, but it seems so natural now that I do not even think about it. That is the key to it, Rand. I am sure. You must learn to surrender -"
He was shaking his head vigorously. "Egwene, if I surrendered - even for a minute - saidin would consume me. It's like a river of molten metal, an ocean of fire, all the light of the sun gathered in one spot. I must fight it to make it do what I want, fight it to keep from being eaten up."

TSR ch. 7

I always thought it was ironic that Ny got Lan when she surrendered while Lan survived because he never surrenders, but it actually fits the topic that men must never stop fighting to control saidin while women must surrender to control saidar.
Sydo Zandstra
27. Fiddler
I, too, love these chapters. Especially Nynaeve's block breaking and how it happened. In a reread, you can see that this was deftly foreshadowed in Nynaeve's thoughts throughout the books.



Elayne briefly interrupts to ask Careane to bring Adeleas and Vandene some tea;

Funny, this happening in a chapter called The First Cup, considering Adeleas was killed later after drinking poisoned tea brought to her by Careane... ;)
Kurt Lorey
28. Shimrod
@7 Lannis

Yeah, what you said. Plus, and additional "Yay!" (just because).
Thomas Keith
29. insectoid
First off, Leigh: Congrats! And thanks for the great post (though we did finally derail the last one!), it's one of my favorite chapters!

Pardon my error; TWO of my favorite chapters! ;)

Italics FTW!

Elayne: Way to put your foot down and show those AS who's boss!

Nynaeve: Need I say it? Made. Of. AWESOME. ;)

Fiddler @27: No kidding—BIG clue in hindsight. That's our RJ... very sneaky!

EDIT: And yes, TVTropes is addicting. I tried to explain this to my mom, but she doesn't even know what a 'trope' is! :)

j p
30. sps49
Doesn't Nynaeve still have trouble embracing saidar? Anger is still a useful tool for her even at the meeting with Tuon in TGS, I recall.

Mashiara was cool for Lan's return, but the gooey stuff was only okay for me. I mean, it was a'ight, and amusing, but no big.

I was surprised that Elayne needed prompting to thank Mat. Does she not remember the Stone of Tear and Swovan Day-After? Yet here she is, initially being very unappreciative. I like the character fine, but here she is being a- well, I'm not saying it here.

Go Mat! See ya in the Rahad next month!
Bonnie Andrews
31. misfortuona
Nice catch on the tea.

Mis-finding it amusing that 17 is still getting more comments. The power of the CageMaster

Edit And with that thought posting on 17 stops.
Hugh Arai
32. HArai
Birgit@26: Thanks for pointing those quotes out. That's a neat bit of insight.
33. Freelancer
Hi Leigh. We didn't tear the house down over the last post, as you've noticed. Partly because see, we aren't the hysterical my-way-or-the-highway zealots about these fictional events in this fiction story that you thought we might be. Partly because, well, since it wasn't that big a deal, it isn't that big a deal.

About getting your seasonal waterfowl into parade formation, you could borrow some from The Peabody Hotel in Memphis. Nobody has their ducks in a row like them Dux.

I always get infuriated when I read about the "real" Sisters saying, in effect:

AS ~ "You revealed a secret!"
El ~ "What secret?"
AS ~ "None of your business, it's a secret!"
El ~ "How can you be angry at me for discovering a secret I didn't know about?"
AS ~ "There can be no excuses! You must be punished for revealing what you did not know not to reveal because you are supposed to know better than to reveal what you did not know not to reveal."
El ~ "Ok, that killed the goat..."
Roger Powell
34. forkroot
Yes these are good chapters, but one thing that has always annoyed me with the Nyn/Lan water rescue scene is the punch and bruise. Jordan is usually pretty good about getting the details right (other than juggling) but he blew it on that one.

Try punching someone underwater hard enough to raise a bruise. You can't.
Sam Mickel
35. Samadai
Ahh, great stuff.

the princess:
I am put over you and you have to do what I say.

The Aes Sedai and Kin:

As you wish......

P.B. for the win
Thomas Keith
36. insectoid
Free @33:
AS ~ "You revealed a secret!"
El ~ "What secret?"
AS ~ "None of your business, it's a secret!"
El ~ "How can you be angry at me for discovering a secret I didn't know about?"
AS ~ "There can be no excuses! You must be punished for revealing what you did not know not to reveal because you are supposed to know better than to reveal what you did not know not to reveal."
El ~ "Ok, that killed the goat..."
That sounds like something that ought to be in the WoT by ISAM ;)

Sam @35: Arrggh! Still haven't bought it yet.

Captain Hammer
37. Randalator
forkroot @34

Chuck Norris can and so does Nynaeve.
Tricia Irish
38. Tektonica

Congragtulations on finding a suitable Box in NYC. Tres difficile! And moving is sooooo much fun! (I recommend late at night.) And good news about going back to 2 posts per week, when your ducks are sorted, donated and unpacked or......We might have to resort to "Bully Beatdown" next week.

You are allowed to show your pleasure.
**confetti** balloons** champagne**

Love these chapters. Nynaeve turns the corner leaving being the "Most Irritating Character" behind, and Elayne grows up and stops being a AS doormat. (Although, the Arrogance factor does increase....I always liked least she gets stuff done!)

As far as romantic sappy stuff in WOT, this is really about it, and this is pretty mild...thank goodness. Very tasteful, IMHO.

Love Reanne having to bow to Elayne and eat some Birdie and love it when the AS faint as they find out how many Kin there are and how old Reanne is!
We are not all knowing, damn.

Great recap....think I'll go read it again.....
Aidan Young
39. aidanyoung1102
Love it, love it, love it!!!!

Thanks for the awesome postings and use of YouTube Leigh!

This are two of best chapters in a while, I think.
Noneo Yourbusiness
40. Longtimefan
@ 18, jdm.

weather or not you like a word the word has actual meaning beyond the perjorative.

I doubt the kind and considerate Ms Butler would intend the word in its less pleasant format but insted as a way of saying "unable to move past a certain point".

I am not trying to defend our illustrious post mistress as I am certain she can do that on her own. I am just mentioning that not everything means what you think it means.
Richard Fife
41. R.Fife
BTW, you all know you were thinking it. I did it:
(to the tune of My Sharona by The Knack)

Ooh my little pretty one, braided one.
When you gonna get my bond, Mashiara?
Ooh you make my mandarb run, mandarb run.
Spur it from Salidar, Mashiara
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Such an angry mind. Always get a smile for the touch
of the younger kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M Mashiara...

Come a little closer huh, ah will ya huh.
Almost have joy in my eyes, Mashiara.
Warring with the Shadow gets to me
Up in the blight my heart dies, Mashiara
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Such an angry mind. Always get a smile for the touch
of the younger kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M Mashiara...

When are you gonna marry me, yeah marry me?
It's just a matter of time, Mashiara
Wheel weavin' destiny, destiny.
We were always meant to be, Mashiara!
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Such an angry mind. Always get a smile for the touch
of the younger kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M Mashiara...
Susan Brownhill
42. SusanB
I LOVE these two chapters! I always tear up reading them with their CMoA.

And thanks Leigh for being so awesome! I love your commentary. You always point out some awesomeness that I didn't notice previously. Such as, El getting angry vs. Nyn not getting angry. It really makes me appreciate how much work RJ must have gone through to produce these works.

Also, thank you to other posters for your incites as well. I didn't realize that Careane gave A a cup of tea here & that the chapter title might actually be foreshadowing the second cup of tea C will give to A.

And that Moggy actually is responsible for breaking Nyn's block!!! I never put two & two together on that one (feeling a bit of dunce for that). So thanks for pointing that out. It makes the this moment even more awesome!
Tina A
43. Tinaa
Oh great. Now I have to clean red wine out of the laptop again. Thanks R.Fife!!
Jacy Clark
44. Amalisa
must... stop... laughing... must... breathe...
Bonnie Andrews
45. misfortuona
Nope wasn't thinking it, but now I will NEVER get it out of my head. It'll return each and every time I read a scene between them.

Mis-humming now.
Karen Jacobs
46. KJacobs
RFife @ 41:
LOL! Don't I recall you saying you were going to do that at the end of each book? Pretty Please? :)
Tess Laird
47. thewindrose
Leigh - I am so happy for you! Get moved in and sit back an enjoy some refreshments of your liking!

Ah, yes... Damn tvtropes - must. not. look. fail...
It should be noted that Crowning Moments of Awesome are subjective, and what strikes one as being pure awesome may generate a 'meh' reaction from another. It is also possible for certain characters to have more than one moment of awesome during their existence, both for the above-mentioned reasons of audience subjectivity, and because some characters are just that awesome.

I think this passage just might be referring to Matrim:)

Yeah, finally Elayne gets some props! And, yes I too remember when I first read these two chapers, and was so **happy** for both Elayne and Nynaeve. I think I had a goofy grin on my face - certainly had many people looking at me with eyebrows up.

Tess Laird
48. thewindrose
And as I was posting I missed that yellow shawled rick roller! Please do that one in your a cappella, pretty please:)

Sam Mickel
49. Samadai
As I spend a lot of time going out to eat, and my usual companion is a book, I have had my fair share of strange looks from strangers when I laugh or exclaim out loud.
Bonnie Andrews
50. misfortuona
Hmmm, literature induced turrets?

Mis-wonders if it's contagious
Steven Pattingale
51. Pattingale
Virulent, extremely contagious misfortuona! :) All it takes to catch it is to crack the cover.

@41 had to start up some Bob Marley to help banish the tune. Ah... better now.
Sara H
52. LadyBelaine
Two quick, harried thoughts.

Re: Elayne's CMOA

I always thought that Elayne had a pretty good one early on when she barged in on the unknown number of Black sisters who were holding Amathera - that was pretty bold. It was only two, but she didn't know that. It was Awesome. (Of course, this unfortunately set Elayne onto habit of barging into danger and probably getting other's killed).

Plus, Elayne does the high-wire sans One Power was pretty awesome too.

However, my favorite Elayne moment in the whole series, even in light of the battles waged, Black Ajah hunted, sparrows healed, captures and escapes, and many, many dresses later was her exclamation of "good for you!" when Nynaeve sprung a damane and that damane turned around and slugged the sul'dam right in the face, way back in Falme.

Love Elayne, and will love her forever, just for that.

The Kin andtheir Numbers

I must confess to ultimately finding the Kin very, very disappointing. I initially thought that they were a very, very very clever idea on RJ's part. I mean, for many books, we are told that the Aes Sedai are dwindling, they haven't the numbers to do what they must in the years to come, yadda yadda yadda. But then, lo!

Here are the Kinswomen, or as Rich Boye called them on usenet, the "Rejected" (ha! get it? they're not Accepted!), a huge gaggle of half-trained Aes Sedai wannabes, still in a loose organization, just waiting to be swept up, welcomed back into the fold and brought up to speed in time for Tarmon Gaidon. It made sense that they were like the Aes Sedai reserve, most partially through their training and vetted, and wouldn't require as much time as a new crop of novices to earn the shawl and go forth into battle.

I thought it was a brilliant masterstroke.

I was wrong. :( They reverted to angry, whiny petulant cliques, and are apparently easy prey and were being picked off one by one in the later series. So sad.

I was especially saddened by Reanne Corly's death later on, without even a big fight. She was just snuffed offscreen (like Madam Amelia Bones in the Potterverse....grrrrrrrr).
John Massey
53. subwoofer
Dang- does anyone else feel robbed that Elayne didn't get some slipper action going? It could have been epic. And... going with Fife on this one, OTOH Elayne does stand up for herself, OTO she does it by being rude and calling out-for all intents and purposes- one of her elders. I'm old enough to really not like it when some young know-it-all thinks they have things down pat and sees clear to question my judgment. Elayne is still wet behind the ears, later actions prove that out. Shaddup and take yur lumps.

Ny- there are many times that Nynaeve reminds me of somebody I know who is contrary just for the sake of being contrary. No rhyme or reason to it. The one time it finally clicks for her- to get what you want, don't be pig headed and bull your way through- advice incidentally, she dolls out to Rand, Mat, any man within earshot- but be calm, patient and things will come to you. If she has any sense or time for self reflection, there will be a whole lotta *headdesking* action going on for her later. Sad that this epiphany occurs only when she has no other option.

Ny's smacking Lan reminds me of Bruce's one inch punch. Guru Dan is the man for this now.

54. Trench
TV tropes just stole the last hour of the work day from me. You should use stronger warnings Leigh. Great Reread as always.
55. OwMasha
So ... hmm ...
::considers posting something substantive::
Oh, why start now?

Am I really the only person who got halfway through the second chapter before realising that 'Mashiara' wasn't the name of the boat? And that only happened because it sank, and I realised that no sailor worth their superstitious salt would name a boat 'lost love'?

(On the bright side, I now have 'I'm On A Boat' stuck in my head so badly that Mis's filk can't get in ... knock wood.)
56. OwMasha
Er, crap, I meant R. Fife's filk. sry. hiding now.
Jacy Clark
58. Amalisa
Leigh, good luck with the moving... never a fun thing to do.

Yes, we were good. After your ample warnings, how could we not be?

I do love these chapters! Without a doubt, two of my favorites in the whole series, and they're back2back. When Elayne burned the letter from Carridin, then so beautifully put Merlille and Co. in their places, I cheered. It was such a relief to have that particular hurdle, well, hurdled! Elayne and Nynaeve are Aes Sedai, so deal with it. Next?

Moghedien. It stands to reason that either Moggie or Cyndane/Lanfear will have their cour'souvra crushed by Moridin at some point. It is too evil a fate not to have it befall one of them. ( If memory serves, when it happens, the victim is still aware of everything but is utterly controlled by whoever broke the mindtrap.) I waver back in forth as to which one I want it to happen to. When reading this chapter, I want it to be Moghedien. Even more than I want Nynaeve to have the extreme pleasure of the third-time's-the-charm beat down. In fact, I want it to happen just as Nyn and Moggie are in the middle of that last, fateful face-off and, just as Moghedien thinks she might have the upper hand... [i][b]ker-runch![/b] Nynaeve looses balefire and Moggie is powerless to defend herself. Toast.

Back to the matter at hand... I remember getting this really sick feeling when Nynaeve's boat sank and she couldn't get angry enough to embrace saidar. I bought into the hopelessness of her situation, I mean, totally. For those few paragraphs, I was seriously wondering if it was possible that Nynaeve was going to die and what it would mean to the story.
And with hope gone, flickering on the ege of consciousness like a guttering candle flame, she did something she had never done before in her life. She surrendered completely.
Saidar flowed into her, filled her.

What a relief!!

Then it just got better. Lan to the rescue. The whole "Light, Nynaeve, you are a hawk!" thing. Nynaeve realizes that her block is gone. And the sure, sweet knowledge that - finally! - she was going to get her man!! I also thought the Calle Coplin references were funny. I don't know why... And, yes, there is a trope for the infamous Ms. Coplin.

As for the Aes Sedai descending on the Kin en masse and scaring the bejesus out of them. Yes, there were parts of it that I liked - for example, the little bit of comeuppance due Reanne for the way she treated Elayne and Nynaeve when she last saw them, then Elayne wanting to hug her when Reanne whispered about being Green. At the same time, I have to say that I didn't quite believe that Merlille would faint "dead away" when she learned Reanne's age. Yes, it was shocking. But wouldn't an Aes Sedai - a woman who has endured the test for the shawl and all of its incumbent stresses - have more self-control than that? Wouldn't her first inclination be to not believe what would seem to be an outlandish claim? Isn't fainting a bit extreme? I just didn't think that Merlille was so frail.
59. OwMasha
From ... er, TV Tropes:

Self-demonstration aside, "filk" is best described as the music of fandom, or at least, the music of the filk community. Songs about SF books or movies, fandom in-jokes, or even just related topics such as computer geeky references are all common sources for filk.

( )
Sara H
60. LadyBelaine
At the same time, I have to say that I didn't quite believe that Merlille would faint "dead away" when she learned Reanne's age.
? I just didn't think that Merlille was so frail.

Enh. I always got the impression that Merilille, despite having perhaps one of my top ten favorite names in all of WOT, is a bit of a lightweight Aes Sedai, a little timid and tremulous.

Although, even Merilille gets her CMOA later!
Ron Garrison
61. Man-0-Manetheran
"Also, thank you to other posters for your incites as well." You probably meant "insights", but "incites" is humorously appropriate on this board!

Leigh & thewindrose:
I get a little email from time to time called Word Spy. They pick up on new words in the English language. Today's email was for:
n. A person who expresses indifference or apathy towards something. Also: meh sayer, mehsayer. It entered the lexicon via The Simpsons show (the earliest usage coming in a 1994 episode), and has even made it into at least one dictionary.
Alice Arneson
62. Wetlandernw
jdm @18 - yeah, I thought it too, but have made the choice not to be too offended when people use it that way. *sigh*

Longtimefan@40 - Most people don't realize just how hurtful that word can be when used in a non-clinical sense, as this was. jdm made a perfectly legit request. Leigh's response is, of course, up to her, but I say it was worth the asking. From my 9 years experience, I've found that most reasonable people are willing to use a different, equally (or more) descriptive term when they realize that the term "retarded" is not just offensive (a la profanity), but deeply painful on a personal level to someone.

I'll do a real comment soon, but had to get that said. And now I have to go make dinner.
j p
63. sps49
All right, Mr. Fife, now we will want a song for the Firefly re-watch!
Richard Fife
64. R.Fife
@63 sps49 Heh, I need to maintain some dignity there, aye? Not that I have much, mind, just a little. I might yet do an A Capella version for Mashiara, and I guess I should get around to making the "end of book" songs for TSR on. Already have an idea of what song to use for ACoS. (Mine is an evil laugh)
Richard Fife
65. R.Fife
crazy double post...

Damn... I need some filler Johnny!
Sam Mickel
66. Samadai
Dignity. I thought you for sure know a lost cause when you see them. :)
Roger Powell
67. forkroot
Although, even Merilille gets her CMOA later!
Gosh, I don't remember Merilille doing all that much. My main recollections of her are her increasingly haunted look as the Sea Folk use her for their "training" as a result of Elayne's bargain.

Are you suggesting her CMOA is when she bolts Camelyn with Talaan headed for the White Tower?
Thomas Keith
68. insectoid
Fifester @41: LMAO. You're bad! ;)

69. alreadymadwithnyn'sfist
Nynaeve must pack quite a wallop if she could bruise Lan's stone face while both of them were submerged. See I don't know about the rest of you, but hitting something with enough force while under water isn't as easy as it looks. I agree with forkroot. The water slows the fist down. And even when the target is hit, the target isn't standing on solid ground so the tendency is always for him to move with the force, effectively rolling with the punch. Besides, the cold water will act as a compress and keep the blood from pooling around the damaged vessels before they clot, also minimising, if not preventing bruising entirely.

R.Fife @34
I will never hear that song the same way again.

OwMasha @55
It's established pretty early on that Mashiara is Lan's name for Nynaeve and is a Malkier word. So it's highly unlikely anybody would use it as a name for a boat made a whole continent away, even accounting for super emo boatmen.

Amalisa @58
True, however we also know that age is one of those taboo topics among Aes Sedai. No one among the Aes Sedai is particularly used to dealing with the fact that others can live much longer than they.
70. Freelancer
When you consider that Cadsuane is 300 years give or take a few, and is by far the oldest living Aes Sedai, who are (to their knowledge at that point) the longest lived folks in the world, to have someone matter-of-factly say that they are more than 130% of that age is extremely shocking to an Aes Sedai. Not just because of the incredulity, but because age itself is such a closeted topic. It did not shock Elayne nearly so much, because she had already realized the immensity of age which must be involved for a channeler to show such signs of being elderly.

And I'll use that thought as a stepping off point to a side-tangent. We know that the Aes Sedai are badly mistaken about several aspects related to the Kin. That they quietly stop using the Power is one, and I think that the two pieces of information are linked. The Tower must occasionally send someone to clandestinely "check up" on the Kin. They notice that the women don't share their ageless look. Since the Aes Sedai belief is that the ageless look is gained after a certain amount of time working with the Power, they would conclude that these ladies have stopped doing so.
71. MasterAlThor
Ok Fife, I got neighbors on the other side of the state looking at me funny. Thanks, thanks alot.

Oh that was damn funny.

Ok now to make some people mad. I don't mind the first chapter, but I can't help but think about what Leigh said about righteous indignation going sideways a few weeks back. Should that not have happend here?

Where are my manners? Leigh, congrats girl. We all know that you have been searching and it is good to know that you have landed on your feet. First the Saint's win, then your roomie gets hitched. 2010 turning out to be a good year so far huh?

And now back to our regularly scheduled program....

I am glad that she finally stood up and made the other sisters realize that they need to get in line.

Now for my favorite character (que the sarcasm).

This was the chapter that made me throw my book across the room and get into a fight with my wife (who at the time was my girlfriend).

"That's stoopid" you say. "Yes, Yes it was" I say.

In my defense, I can't stand Nynaeve. I may have mentioned that before somewhere. I honestly thought she was about to bite the big one.

"Whooo Hooo", I shouted in my mind as I read speedly about the results of the huge stream of balefire unleashed by Moggy. "He's going to kill a major character".

The suspense was terrifying, I hoped it would last.

And then it happend. That, man hating, gives women a bad name, insufferable, overbearing, know-it-all, had to go and surrender to Saidar.

The results were instantanious.

Book flies across room.

Wife shouts WTF??

I yell. "It ain't fair, I was robbed"

She says, "it's just a book, calm down"

You guys can see where this is going right?

Long story short, MAT slept on the couch that night dreaming of Nyn's demise.

I did mention that I don't like her right?

Ah well, maybe she will grow on me. My grade school teacher told me once that if you hate someone that much you must be in love with them.

Don't ask why she told me that. I have yet to figure it out.

Ron Garrison
74. Man-0-Manetheran
Doing the re-read, I enjoyed a little tidbit that I hadn't seen before: Moggy leaves her sedan chair and heads for the roof of the nearby inn. She's flinging little "needles" of air at everyone in her path and they are all jumping left and right. What a funny visual.

Shortly thereafter she remarks to herself that she doesn't have much of a Talent for Compulsion, but it's sufficient to send the innkeeper into forgetfulness.
Jacy Clark
75. Amalisa
amwnf@69 and freelancer@70

I get that, for Aes Sedai, age is a taboo subject and all that, ergo the shock at someone being even way older. But my point is that "shock" is one thing, "fainting" is something else. I've been shocked to my toenails over some pretty drastic, unbelievable things - things that I've wanted to reject, deny with everything in me - but I've only fainted once in my life, and it was a physical issue. I'm also inclined to think that, given the lack of respect Aes Sedai generally feel for "wilders and failures", Merlille's first inclination would be skepticism, not unconsciousness.

I don't know. It just struck me as a bit much - at first reading and still today.

Oh, and the discussion regarding Nynaeve hitting Lan... It is recommended, in the event of a shark attack, that the victim hit the shark in the nose, eyes and gills. Don't know that it would really work, but that's the recommendation. :) According to the book, "[s]omething grabbed her dress", and she began flailing about with hands and feet. We don't know if Lan grabbed the skirt, belt, bodice or collar, but if he was close enough to her, she might have been able to do some damage with the flailing.

*really, really wanted to sneak in a fun youtube thingy but, alas, no* ...stupid spam filter...
Rob Munnelly
76. RobMRobM
Cagefight semis- voting open until Sunday night at 8 p.m. EST.

Girlfight is taking a break as Fortuona and Selucia look for omens regarding their performance in the upcoming finals. An oversized albatross takes a big dump on the Empress - good news for whom?

Unpowered Division

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress?

EDIT -corrected Nyn's seeding (that's what happens when you do that from memory)

Stay tuned until Sunday night for the results.

Rob (the Cagemaster)
Tricia Irish
77. Tektonica

I concur on the fainting thing. I"ve never understood people fainting at "information". Sit down hard with a stunned look on your face, maybe, but faint? I've only fainted once, and like you said, it was a physical problem, like blood loss or fever. It just seems like such a lame, "girly" thing to do. Weak.
Which is odd, given that the AS are supposed to be so tough and powerful. I always just harumph when I see "fainting" in books.

BTW: RobM posted the results of the cage fight on 17 and is moving the remaining bouts to this reread thread. Here's a copy of his post:

Cagefight results. Read em and weep (or not) -

Edit: RobM: Wish we could reverse these two last posts.


Selucia in a walkover over Faile 24 v. 6

Fort overwhelmingly over Tylee, sometimes without a blow being stricken 23 v. 7


Rand bf's Logain into yesteryear, 27 v. 3

Mori trumps Cads, 28 v. 1 and 1 tie (with the two walking arm and arm into sunset - my eyes!!)

Nyn is a surprising upset whomping of Demandred, 22 v. 8.

In the best match of the night, Egs in a squeaker over Alivia, 16 v. 14.

Unpowered but Cool

Lan cuts down the Wolfman, 26 v. 4

Mat stomps Galad's pretty little blademaster butt, 29 v. 1.

Birgitte wins an emotionally wrenching battle with Tam, 20 v. 9 and a one tie

The dedicated spear in a mild upset over the diseased knife, Rhurarc over Fain 20 v. 9 and one tie.

Semi finals to be moved over to CoS 18.

Rob Munnelly
78. RobMRobM
Fork@67 - Merlille lays the groundwork for Elayne's deal with the Borderlanders. That's at least a MoPC (Moment of pretty cool).
Tina Pierce
79. scissorrunner
R.Fife @34

OK - I can breathe now. no, wait
can't help it

(falls over laughing again)

maybe later
Alice Arneson
80. Wetlandernw
Ah, that's better....

Wow. Truly a WOOT post today!!

Leigh, congrats on finding a place. WOOT! I wish you all the best in the moving efforts! Tis an un-fun thing, but the end result can be sooooo nice. Happy duck-hunting and -lining...

And the possibility of the return to two posts a week in the near future: WOOT!! Yes, as we have so amply proven, we can get a little punch-drunk when we have to come up with our own entertainment. Cadsuane for two weeks straight? Oy. It was not pretty. I'm grateful that the Mat/Tylin thing was only one week (though I'm sure we'll revisit the subject occasionally... since it's not done until the end of WH, with flashbacks in CoT... *sigh*) and happily for all, it was interrupted by the CageMaster. "Is." "Isn't." "Is." "Isn't." - gets old after a couple of days.

And then... MoAs left and right. WOOT!!! I've never hated any of the characters (except Berelain and Team Dark. And Fain.) so I don't have the dislike of ACoS that some do. I like the Kin. (For that matter, I like the Sea Folk. Some of them get downright annoying, but not so much that I dread reading the chapters or anything.) But I loved Elayne's moment. She's so diligently been keeping her cool and trying to be a good, calm AS, poor kid. Then that note from Carridin (and the funny part is, it was true! Hah!) threw her into icy temper mode... Ahhhh. Always so much more effective than the heated version. The comments from A & V were sweeeet. And "Reanne’s head jerked up in a most satisfactory way." LOL!!

Old habits die hard: "We already know all about it... Oops... Thank you..." What can I say? I enjoy the comeuppances and smackdowns in both directions. :) Actually, I just like it when people look truth in the eye and do more than give it passing nod.

Speaking of facing the truth, Nynaeve.... doesn't. Almost ever. I gotta love her, even if others don't. She just cracks me up, almost all the time. Except when she brings tears to my eyes, and even then sometimes. (BTW..."Aviendha had seemed bizarrely almost frightened at Nynaeve's attempt to get her to go instead." LOL!!) Seriously, I think Nynaeve is about the funniest bundle of contradictions ever written, because in spite of it somehow she's still so totally believable. Maybe because of it, now that I think on the subject a bit. Real people are full of contradictions, but we don't usually get the full inside scoop on anyone else's, and our own aren't nearly as funny as theirs.

I loved this sequence. No matter that I know she's going to make it, I still hold my breath and feel the panic, the terror, the relief, the joy... And I still get a few tears over "Mashiara" even though I've read this at least seven times. Just love it. And the realization that the block is completely gone, for good... WOOT!!!!

And I like italics. And embedded parenthetical asides, with or without the parentheses. And fractured sentences, when I do them on purpose. (NOT when it's just a proofing error. *sigh*)
Rob Munnelly
81. RobMRobM
Nice chapters.

Have to say that I'm enjoying and appreciating Elayne more on this re-read but her continual mistreatment of Mat still grates even after she begins understanding his true skils and even after she owes him some big toh. It is frankly driving me insane that she would continue to treat him like cr@p but for her desire to please Avi and Birgitte - not heartfelt towards him at all. This, unfortunately, does not stop during the remainder of the book (including the "that was very bad of Tylin, perhaps you should practice your smiles in the mirror" riff and the "most observant subject" bit after they stick Mat in the impossible situation against the Sea Folk.

I found Mashiara to be a highlight of the book - her line "Can I make sure that Myrelle knows it's me" floored me when I first heard it Wow. Lan's "you're a hawk" response is very cool as well. She is disappointing towards Mat in her own right, with the forgetting for a couple of minutes to even check if her Redarms were alive and refusing to tell Mat that his men were dead and, later, dumping him into the Sea Folk situation and trying to defend it afterwards ("you didn't need to know anything...." Arrrghhhh!!! Headdesk, headesk.....

Rob Munnelly
82. RobMRobM
I should note that cagefight results are posted in ACOS 17. Read em and weep (or not). R

EDIT - Tek copied them into this thread too above.
Sandy Brewer
83. ShaggyBella
An Aes Sadai Faint and a Bruised Warder. What do they have in common?

Fictional characters do not have to follow the Laws of Science or even Common Sense. They do what the Creator (Author) wants them to do.

Cool, huh?
Mikey Bennett
84. EvilMonkey
I just finished re reading the series and I must say this book just emphasized the fact that I find most of the AS to be really silly when they aren't outright pathetic in their overbearing, many times undeserved pride. You see glimpses in other novels but I think ACoS is the pinnicle of AS foolishness. If it wasnt for Egwene and Cadsuane I think there'd be no hope for redemption for these silly ninnies.
Alice Arneson
85. Wetlandernw
MasterAlThor @71 - See, here's where we differ. (Aside from the fact that you hate Nynaeve and I like her.) Take for an example my one "light side" Most Loathed Character: Berelain. If she were to die in some spectacular fashion in the first chapter of TofM, if it involved any less than the wipe-out of Demandred or Cyndane, I'd be seriously irritated. I've put up with all that trash from her for TEN BOOKS now - it better be for something more than a fiery death. She'd better at least go out in a massive MoA, just to make it worth my while to have suffered through her stupid games all that time!
Thomas Keith
86. insectoid
CageM² @82: Uh, Rob, see Tek @77... :)

Janet Hopkins
87. JanDSedai
Might as well get my votes in early!
Rand all the way!
Moridin--Nyn may kick F'n butt, but not the TP

Lan--spears vs swords; Lan's spearwork is pretty good IIRC
Mat-- just 'cuz
Antoni Ivanov
88. tonka
Nynaeve is seeded 6 (not 12). I was just about to comment how in the non power section the 4 of top 5 seeded are on semis while in the powered there are more surprises.
I am going to throw my votes later. I have to run now.
Rob Munnelly
89. RobMRobM
@86. Tek used the magic of editing to move the results over to this thread after I went to bed.
Rob Munnelly
90. RobMRobM
tonka@88. Thanks for correction. Fixed via editing now. R
Wesley Parish
91. Aladdin_Sane
I have a confession to make: at some point in time, my cynicism-blocker got kicked into touch, and I started reading Bowl of Winds as Bowel of Winds, fueled of course, by beans aplenty ... then the Wind gets going, full strength ...

Apart from that, I enjoyed Elayne finally getting her Royal Act together and taking command of the Doofuses Inc., that was otherwise taking place in that room. Likewise - but I always thought that Nynaeve's moment of awesomeness was rather better than Elayne's. She gets two, not just one, in one single step - unrestricted access to her power because of her enemy's stupidity, and her books-long, WOT-wide love gets consummated.
Wesley Parish
92. Aladdin_Sane
Cagefight: Winnie the S**t (He grew up, left Pooh Corner and that doofus Christopher Robin and joined the Mods or the Rockers, I forget which; wears a row of blunt razorblades on a chain from ear to nose; has a set of instant tattoos on his arms) vs Lanfear.

She's trying to outcute him: he's wondering how he can sharpen the razorblades in time. ...
Rob Munnelly
93. RobMRobM
Time for me to vote - early and often, I say....

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II.

Lan makes short work of him. Bad match up for Rhuarc but it's always tough to go against No. 1.

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.

Arrows beat knives. Dice come to a thundering halt. Birgitte cries and then quickly heads back to Camelyn before Selucia can look up from examining omens and come after her.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?

Yes. Eg will yell at hime for compelling sisters and ignoring the Black Tower. He will swear under the Light that he did not compel the sisters but admit to ignoring the Black Tower, in light of other pressing business, but apologize. She will accept the apology and yield the bout, since Rand needs to be there for the last battle. (If she has to die per the rules, then she will ask Laras to make her up some fine tasting tea and Eg will drink it and express her heartfelt appreciation.)

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress?

No, she can't. Mori is too strong and has too many skills.
94. Denari6
1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II.

If you were wowed by previous battles, you had not seen anything yet. Rhuarc and Lan battle as if forces of nature...can a Hurricane defeat a Volcano? Although Rhuarc has no fear of death, Lan himself is death stalking in the night. Lan sheaths the sword and strikes Rhuarc down. As lan is about the place his mountain down and embrace the mother...Nyn comes and heals him.

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.

Birgitte is tough, skilled and focused like an arrow. Most of all to the detriment of Mat, she is a woman and a friend. As Birgitte goes on the offensive, Mat goes on the defense and dodges arrows left and right while berating the cursed cagemaster for forcing him to fight the big B. The dice are tumbling in his head and seem to shoot all crowns for every arrow he dodges. Until he shoots the dark one's eyes and Mat is surprised by a nimble glancing shot that would have killed most men. However, Mat's medallion saved the immediate killing shot forcing the arrow to pierce deep into his shoulder effectively pinning him to the ground. Mat curses but calmly awaits what he knows to be his last breath. Birgitte advances and apologizes to her friend and prepares the quick and painless death blow. Just as she pulls the arrow back she gasps and fires the arrow into the sky as a dagger appears in her chest. Mat looks amazed but then he notices Fortuona standing not far away and she berates him and she rushes to aid him..."Matrim this weakness towards women must end. I shall not let the prince of the ravens fall in such a away" Mat doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

Rand v. 13 Egwene.

Egwene foundly touches her Sa'Angreal and frowns at Rand. "I am sorry it has come to this but you have become tainted by the dark and must be put down."

Rand looks askance at her. I must be at the last battle Egwene. I do this for the world. The air next to him shimmers revealing Calandor. He pulls the taint free Saidin just as Egwene attempts to gentle him with Saidar. Rand begins to cast weaves to disarm and incapacitate Eg but begins to lose control again...resulting in many deaths among the observers. When the smoke clears there is nothing left of Egwene or the cage. Rand crumples and burns another name into his list.

Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Moridin pwns her...sorry Nyn =(
Richard Fife
95. R.Fife
Lan: The Aiel had heard of him in specific, he had not heard of any particular Aiel until the Stone. There is a reason for this. Additional, Lan went all Highlander, and inherited the wolves from Perrin, so he can use them too.

Mat: Birgitte can shoot arrows until kingdom come, but they all seem to have just developed a bad fletching or had a flaw on the shaft she hadn't noticed, and all miss Mat by a hair. Mat, offers peace and they go drinking instead. Mat drinks her under the table, and as he is the first one back up and at the cage the next day, is declared the winner.

At present... Egwene. Rand just deep-sixed his most powerful weapon, and when SWMNBN died, the location of his second biggest weapon went poof too. Right now, he has no artifacts. Egwene, on the other hand, throws an 18 yr old tantrum, calls him a woolhead, and accidently makes him extra-crispy. This gives her an idea, and she opens up a chain of stores: TFD: TarValon Fried Dragon.

Moridin: For extra fun, Mori actually has Shadar Haran standing nearby, blocking the source like an intrepid class star destroyer blocks hyperspace. He then goes Last of the Mohican's on Nyn, scalps her, and keeps the braid around, attached to the trigger for a pit trap that he makes his subordinates stand on during meetings. He pulls it when he's angry.

Oddly, for the rest of his life, he feels stiff, like he has a really bad sun burn, and has the constant feeling that he has been basted in 11 herbs and spices.
96. nor3
longtimefan@40 : If you made a comment like that, then you clearly have absolutely NO understanding of how deeply hurtfull words like that can be.

Speaking personally, the word "gay" causes me deep, emotional (at times almost physical) pain. Not when used where it is actually applicable (such as "a gay man", "LGBT", etc.), but whenever people describe ANYTHING else as gay, or call someone a fag... The feeling is indescribeable. Its like your soul has been sucked out. Every time.

I can only assume that the word "retarded" has a similar effect on other people when not used in a clinical sense (as an aside, do they even use that term in a clinical sense anymore?). Any time they hear that word where it doesn't belong, they feel a deep emotional pain.

I know that people don't realise the trauma these word cause. I know many people who use the word "gay" on a regular basis, and who honestly don't realise the tremendous effect it has on people like me. I have no doubt that this is why leigh used the word "retarded". An honest mistake, not realising what it would do. But the fact is that these words do cause tremendous trauma, which is something that you obviously do not appreciate.
97. MasterAlThor

I seriously want to like Nynaeve. Even I have to admit she is the funniest character there is. Yes, I believe that she is funnier than Mat.

(yeah I said it, what?)

I want to like her, I really do. I just can't get past all of her, "men are stupid" crap. No one would put up with it if she was a man saying that about women. I know, I know, role reversal examination and alla that, but come on.

(grumbles)She is having some character growth. I remember thinking that she has calmed down just a tad since getting married and getting some. Not that I think that latter really has anything to do with it. (for those that do, you must have forgotten what it was like to be a virgin)

In the end, I think I enjoy reading (what am I saying!!!!) about her more than I do about Faile, or Min for that matter.

I am absolutely with you on Fain in the butt.

Tricia Irish
98. Tektonica
R.Fife@95: Hysterical!

He then goes Last of the Mohican's on Nyn, scalps her, and keeps the braid around, attached to the trigger for a pit trap that he makes his subordinates stand on during meetings. He pulls it when he's angry.


You are always most eloquent and seem to say exactly what I wish to say, but never manage to. I seem to get the outline of what I"m thinking, but you make the connections. Thank you again. Love what you wrote here:

Seriously, I think Nynaeve is about the funniest bundle of contradictions ever written, because in spite of it somehow she's still so totally believable. Maybe because of it, now that I think on the subject a bit. Real people are full of contradictions, but we don't usually get the full inside scoop on anyone else's, and our own aren't nearly as funny as theirs.
99. MasterAlThor
Cagematch of Dhoom

Unpowered Division

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II

I am going with the guy who makes other Warders stand up and pay attention when he practices at lightspeed. Lan in a hard fought battle.

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.

The two good friends put down their weapons and have a drinking contest. Mat and his hollow leg over Birgitte and her feather dress.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?

On the real, Rand has enough power to break the world. Egwene has all the toys and the Towwer to call on. Rand weaves balefire so huge that Alivia comes back and has to help Rand die. Alivia in the unforseen upset.

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress

Nynaeve, fresh off of her stunning victories oveer two forsaken, wanders into the ring only to be stunned by Rand. She looks closer and is zapped by the TP, which her toys have no protection against.

Lannis .
100. Lannis
Cage Match!

Unpowered Division

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. - It's Lan. Sorry Rhuarc, sleep well and... erm... yeah...

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. - Mat's iffy about battling a woman, he nervously reaches up to adjust his scarf, Birgitte waits politely, and Fortuona slips in behind Birgitte and strangles her with a garrotte.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. - He's the DRAGON REBORN. Not some chick with some trinkets.

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. True Power trumps.
101. MasterAlThor

This gives her an idea, and she opens up a chain of stores: TFD: TarValon Fried Dragon.

*Paramedics rush in. "Clear" volts of electricity bring MAT back to life*


That and your song make you always welcome...even if you play for the Darkside.


Oddly, for the rest of his life, he feels stiff, like he has a really bad sun burn, and has the constant feeling that he has been basted in 11 herbs and spices.

I just caught that. Nearly died again.
Sara H
102. LadyBelaine
Are you suggesting her CMOA is when she bolts Camelyn with Talaan headed for the White Tower?

Yes, that's it. I just thought it was a wonderful bit of turnaround is fair play, plus she helped Talaan get was she wanted. I thought it was rather swell.
103. MasterAlThor
nor3 and others,

I am trtying understand your feelings about that. I am actively trying to stop my nephew and son from calling things "gay".

I don't understand the soul sucking pain you say you feel. I am not downing you, I am just saying that I cannot appreciate it.

This next comment just may show my ignorance, but i am trying to do the right thing here.

If they are not calling you "gay" or "fag" then why be upset?

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this. And like I said before, I am trying to stop mine from saying things like this, but I need to understand better so I can explain it to them better.

Growing up my family told me "sticks and stones" and so I am not flying off the deep end when someone shouts the N word. (never been done here)

I assume that yours told you the same thing.

With apologies to Wet and others. I also don't get why "retarded" is offensive. I do not use that term at all. Wet's child is NOT retarded, and yet it is offensive. I know that Wet's kid is just as normal as mine. She may have a little more difficulty doing certain things with hers, but I bet that her kid can do things that mine can't.

I am not trying to start a flame war here. I just need to understand so that way I can better argue on your behalf.

I view all as equal. You cannot tell me that Wet's kid is "special". All kids are. You cannot tell me that you (nor3) or I (I'm black) have to be treated differently because of our birth.

Everyone is equal. Everyone is special.

I apologize if my ignorance offends.


edit: I thought about this some more and have just a few things to say.

I tend to feel angry by those who would shout the N word at me or my family. I am devestating hurt by those who i am close with if they do it.

If that is what you are describing, then I get you.

Just please understand that I just want to be better educated on this sensitive subject.
Tricia Irish
104. Tektonica
Unpowered Division

RobM: Why is the girl fight taking a break? Just too difficult for Selucia to face Fortuona?

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II

Sorry Rhuarc, you are awesome Aiel, but Awesome Incarnate trumps. This would be an incredible battle to witness.

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies.

Mat and Birgitte are commiserating in the lobby bar about this horrible match up.....
Birgitte: "I can't fight my BFF!"
Mat: " Despite the past few bouts, I really really don't like killing women. I never knew I could actually "like" a woman, as a friend, I mean!"
Birgitte: "Let's just get too drunk to fight!"
Mat: " Now that's an idea!"
Mat and Birgitte stagger into the ring holding each other up, Birgitte passes out first, Mat wins.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?

Sorry, Egs, you had your MOA. Rand in an instant, with regret. "I will do what I have to do, he mumbles, but I don't have to like it. Maybe on the next turning....."

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress?

Moridan is momentarily distracted by Nynaeve's clingy low cut dress...he is in a new young virile body, after all. Nynaeve winds up a good weave of Awesome OP which Moridan reflects back at her, incinerating herself.
105. Denari6
Master Althor @ 103 et al

Pink Floyd said it best

"all in all your just another brick in the wall"

In a society so rushed to label, so rushed to divide and ridicule, we are all just put on this Earth to read wheel of time books...many people just have no realized it yet, (fake illianer accent)
Marcus W
106. toryx
Why are we continuing the cage fight so early? Shouldn't it wait until the conversation on this thread has grown stale?

Anyway, I'm in New York (the city) this weekend and I haven't even had time to read Leigh's post, much less find the Cage Fight list. Anyone want to help a guy out and comment on which post is the current list?

Richard Fife
107. R.Fife
Toryx @ 106
@76 is the current Cage Match, @77 is a copy pasta of the results of last round.
John Massey
108. subwoofer
Meow division-

er... spectacular scenery trumps all. Selucia wins. Long live the Empress.

Hardcore division-

Lan the man vs the old guy Rhuarc- Well, let's face it, they are both gray beards. If they don't break a hip or their teeth don't fall out... Will the sand wear away the rock? Things that make me go hmmmmmmmmm. Got a feeling other stuff is going on, and so does Lan... He mumbles some hairy chested drivel about duty and mountains and bouquets for widows and such and gallops off to the Gap. Rhuarc finally gets that it is tough to keep pace with a horse, hangs around and wins by default.

Mat vs. Birgitte. How is that guy still alive? Must be lucky. Possible scenarios... net result, Birgitte doesn't have man part so Mat has issues so he flashes back...
and there, carrying the silver bow with which she never missed . . .
He felt dizzy, dazed. “You are she. Birgitte, for true. Burn my bones to ash, it’s impossible. How? How?”

While Mat's mind is knocked on queer street, Birgette pinches his bottom, steals his staff and smacks him upside the head. When Mat comes to, they go arm in arm for drinks...le sigh... one more week... Birgitte wins.

Juiced division-

Rand vs Eggy. Sheer raw power vs. the ability to brow beat and guilt trip at the drop of a hat. No contest. Somebody drops a hat and Eggy launches her offensive. First she harangues Rand about all the drek he has been pulling with her sisters. Then she rips up one side of him for the Asha'man and his gross mishandling of that mess. Then Eggy rips down the other side of Rand for abandoning his village, playing king, sitting on a throne, buggering around with the Seanchan and anything else that comes to mind. Then she guilts him between the eyes with the bit about his three wives. All this interspersed with words of "sheepherder", "woolheaded lumox"-shout out to the real deal, "donkey", and there is a lot of sniffing and arm crossing under bosoms. Poor schmuck never stood a chance. Rand drags his sorry carcass to Shayol Ghul for solace.

Mor vs Ny. Are you kidding? True power vs cranky midget? Midget wins. Cranks Moridin one in the knee cap, sniffs, tugs her braid and gives him the angreal commonly know as brass knuckles, upside the head. Mor goes down. Ny wins.

Of course all this is moot as Bela is the supreme being that will triumph over all...

109. MasterAlThor

No links from our favorite dog.

The Woof™man is slackin.

Ron Garrison
110. Man-0-Manetheran
I. Powered
>Rand vs. Egwene: After giving Rand a major tongue lashing, "I have always thought I would be with you at the Last Battle, Rand, but you must live to fight it. I surrender to you, Lord Dragon."
"I accept your surrender Egwene, but I cannot kill another woman - especially my childhood sweetheart. Return to the Tower and prepare your sisters for battle."

>>Moridin vs. Nyneave: "Well, Nyneave, you think to send the Malkieran to fight your battles, eh? I shall be glad to serve the weakling up on a platter." Rage fills Nyneave and she strikes with all she's got. Moridin deflects it with a TP shield and strikes her with balefire. Two yellow opals drop alone to the floor.

II. Unpowered
>Lan vs. Rhuarc: "It is an honor to dance the spears with Aan'allein." "No, I will not fight you Rhuarc. My true love is no more. I am a man already dead." Lan vanishes into the Blight.

>>Mat vs. Birgitte: "This is not a battle either of us want, Matrim, but it is not about what we want that matters." The good friends begin their required battle, neither fighting with strength or determination. In a move that was just "too easy" Mat pierces Birgitte with the ashandarei. She falls. Did she deliberately not defend against his blow? Mat drops to his knees and lifts her limp body. As the life eases from her, she says softly: "Do not be sad. I await your call Hornsounder."
Antoni Ivanov
111. tonka
Rand vs Egwene . The Dragon Reborn faces the Amyrlin. Egwene possesses one of the most powerful sa'angreals that can be wielded by woman while Rand just destroyed his only one. Egwene is much more powerful. But that is not enough against the men with the knowledge of infinite lives. Rand wins.

Moridin vs Nynaeve. Unfortunately Ny is just the next step until the only thing that Moridin is interested.. Al'Thor. The match begins. Second later , it ends. Moridin walks out.

Unpowered :

Lan vs Rhuarc - The best sword against the best spear. They fight... you've never seen such fight, there are no words that can describe it, you have to see it...Rhuarc wins.

Mat vs Birgitte. Mat strikes Brigitte but every strike he makes is careful , trying not to lend a mortal blow. Birgitte has no this problem. Thousands year of experience, even Mat's luck cannot save him now.
112. MasterAlThor
Bravo, MOM, bravo.

That was the most stirring Mat vs Birgitte that I have read.

113. nor3
masteralthor@103 : "If they are not calling you "gay" or "fag" then why be upset?"

Thats really the crux of the issue. You see, most people would follow the same logic. They don't see why I should be offended when the word isn't used about me, and so they end up using it and I end up getting offended.

But actually, the fact that they're not just saying it about me makes it considerably worse. Think about it : Anything bad is "gay". A bad movie is "gay", that annoying boss is "gay", that credit card bill is "gay". But I'm gay. It's a rather fundamental and important part of my identity. If you asked me to write a list of word that describe me, it would be pretty high on the list. And yet people go about using it for absolutely anything that they don't like. So, every time, it reinforces in my head the concept of "me=gay=bad".

It's very similar to the N word, but that word can only really be used as a specific reference to black people, unless there's a useage I'm not familiar with. So, hopefully, people don't really use it very often - although I wouldn't be surprised at all if you contradicted me (as a related aside, people don't really " shout the N word at me or my family", do they? I mean, that's just... ugh...). But with gay, it's everywhere, it's a constant, neverending reminder of the feelings that are associated with the word.

I'd imagine its more or less exactly the same with the word retarded (people concerned, feel free to contradict me here). The word is constantly used in reference to things that are stupid, backwards, worthless. And every time it's used, it acts as another reminder of that sentiment.

And, just for the record, I am not asking for special treatment. I am asking for people not to use a word that makes me feel like less of a human being. I think that's a reasonable request.
Bill Reamy
114. BillinHI
Unpowered Division

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II

Lan in an epic battle

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.

In a real battle, Birgitte would win but I really like the idea of another drinking contest which Mat wins.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?

Rand has to be there for Tarmon Gai'don

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress?

Moridin still has the TP (and must meet Rand in the finals)
Bonnie Andrews
115. misfortuona
Okay Here are Mis’ Picks

Unpowered Division

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II

The crowd is hushed as these battle hardened warriors take the ring. Nyneave takes Lan’s colour shifting cloak from him, offering advice and gentle touches in equal measure until he silences her with a touch of a finger on her lips. “Please Masiara I know how to fight Aiel.”
Across the ring lines of spears began pounding the ground rhythmically and the men begin a battle song of praise for the Clan Chief of the Tarrdad Aiel. His wives Amys and Lian stand silently to one side surrounded by wise ones.
The two men face each other, raising sword and spear to the other in salute. “Perhaps one of us will wake from the dream, Aan'allein” Rhurac notes as he takes a first testing swing at the warder.
“Perhaps.” Lan responds, the barest hint of a smile touching his lips.
The men fought in silence, but the battle was punctuated by gasps or rattled spears as one or the other would manage some miracle or another. The battle rages for an hour, each man getting the upper hand for a short time, only to find his opponent turning the tables when it looked to be over.
Finally in what must have been a final effort to finish off his opponent Lan drove forward with the sword pressing past the spear and landing a hard blow flat onto the Aiel’s wrist. The spear fell and another strike brought Lan’s blade to a whisper from Rhurac’s throat.
“A year and a day in claim.” Lan pulled back the sword. “After the final battle is done.”

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.
Mat and Birgitte enter the ring. Mat offers an arm and the pair of them wonder off to get drunk together. DRAW

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?

“This is insane.” Rand spoke to the woman across the ring. “I can’t fight you.”
“Why not? Just because I’m a woman? I can fight against a puffed up sheepherder easily enough after the Seanchan.” Egwene pulled herself up to her full height and shifted the 7- striped shawl on her shoulders.
“Fine then do your worst.” Rand yelled back. “Let’s get this foolishness over.” He lifted his hands in supplication.
“Oh Light!” Egwene gasped. “Look what they did to you.” She stepped forward.
“Come with me to the White Tower, I’m sure we can figure out some way to heal you.”
“The White Tower!” Rand laughed. “The only way I’ll enter that scorpion’s nest is dead. Besides if this could be healed Nyneave or Damer Flinn would have already done so.”
“One of those horrid Ashaman? You would trust them?”
“Flinn I trust more than I do you as long as you wear that ring.”
Egwene opened her mouth stopped and then removed Shawl and ring and set them on the chair behind her.
“And what about now, Rand? Will you trust me as your friend Egwene al’Vere?”
She stepped forward with hand outstretched. “Submit to me. The match will be over and I’ll see that you are there at the Final Battle.”
Rand hesitated a few moments lifted his hand to her, the sky darkened around them and a moment later Egwene was gone. None of the channelers saw or felt a thing.

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress?

Nyneave puts up a good fight here, but in the end the TP overcomes her braid, her greal, and even her sniff.

I just couldn't wait to read all the rest of the predictions so I cheeped out on the last one. Any duplication is purely by accident and I apologise, Great Minds, or warped minds or whatever, right?

Mis-twitching for comments

edit TP not OP, damn
116. alreadymadwithcagematches
Amalisa @75
Enough shock will cause unconsciousness. The physiological causes are the same, only more severe in the case of fainting. People who are stunned tend to respond very slowly to stimuli because not enough blood gets into their brains. Blood being the fuel that the brain needs to formulate a response. Cut that blood supply even more and they lose consciousness.

And now for my take on the Cage matches. Boy, I'd really love to get back on to the unpowered female matches. Nothing like a down and dirty catfight.

Powered Division
Rand vs. Egwene
Rand comes to know the Amyrlin's anger as Egwene throws weave after weave at him, Vora's Sa'angreal blazing like a miniature sun in her hands. Without anything to even the odds, Rand is forced on the defensive, striking and Travelling all over the place. "Hold still you woolhead," Egwene growls as Rand successfully evades yet another fireball. She looks around wildly, then channels lightning as another Gateway opens, correctly assuming it to be Rand's exit, and smirking in satisfaction as her weave tosses Rand about like a rag doll. She comes closer, and satisfaction turns to shock as Rand looks up at her and grins. She is able to slice his weave, but alas that was not the real attack! A small pebble lifts itself up behind her and flies straight into the back of her head. Egwene crumples to the ground as Rand takes a deep breath. That cocoon he used could block off anything but balefire, but it also tended to block off the air you wanted to breathe.

Nynaeve vs. Moridin
Nynaeve brings all her toys. Moridin notices and grins, showing her his own toys. Nynaeve is intrigued at the idea of ensuring a Forsaken's loyalty indefinitely, at which point Moridin strikes. The True Power cuts through all her defenses like a sword through butter. He did not actually need to distract or surprise her like that, but the look of envy on her face had been priceless.

Unpowered Division
Lan vs. Rhuarc
The two wise men realize that angering each other's wife(s) was not really worth all the trouble and resort to hands and feet. Rhuarc is unfortunately more experienced at unarmed combat and wins, although by only a small margin.

Mat vs. Birgite
The two realize that not all battles need to be fought with sharp pointed objects. They relocate to the nearest bar and proceed with a drinking match. Nobody remembers what happened the following morning.
117. MasterAlThor

It most certainly is a reasonable request. Thank you for pointing some things out for me.

And yet people go about using it for absolutely anything that they don't like. So, every time, it reinforces in my head the concept of "me=gay=bad".

i guess I never gave it that serious of thought. I knew that it made people feel uncomfortable, so I put my foot down when it comes to that.

The word is constantly used in reference to things that are stupid, backwards, worthless. And every time it's used, it acts as another reminder of that sentiment.

Here too. I imagine that the sentiment is the same. I don't want to offend anyone. I don't want my family offending anyone.

Let me tell a little story.

I took my young son to a birthday party. The host had a cousin who was mentally diabled. My son did not know how to react, so to teach him that everyone is the same and only appear different. I spoke with her, even though she is unable to talk. Later she gave me a hug. Her mother said thank you for indulging her. I was instantly angry, but said nothing. I was not indulging her daughter. I would have done the same thing if her daughter were not disabled.

I wish to treat everyone the same regardless of race, sex, creed, orientation, or whatever. My faith demands that.

Another thing. You would not believe what I have overheard some people say about me and my wife and she is white.

I get angry but my first obligation is her safety. So I let it go and we go about our way.

I thank you again for making simple what I thought was complicated.

Tricia Irish
118. Tektonica
Man-O@110: The Best!! Perfect solution.

Mat vs. Birgitte: "This is not a battle either of us want, Matrim, but it is not about what we want that matters." The good friends begin their required battle, neither fighting with strength or determination. In a move that was just "too easy" Mat pierces Birgitte with the ashandarei. She falls. Did she deliberately not defend against his blow? Mat drops to his knees and lifts her limp body. As the life eases from her, she says softly: "Do not be sad. I await your call Hornsounder."
Ron Garrison
119. Man-0-Manetheran
Wow. Thanks MAT! ::blushes:: You too, Tek!

I couldn’t stand losing either of these characters, but then I remembered that as a Hero of the Horn, Birgitte would be called back whenever Mat needed Them. So, it became a poetic moment for me - and a way out.

Mis: Wonderful as always. Liked the Lan/Rhuarc especially.
120. Speradigm
Powered Division
Rand vs. Egwene


Rand could not kill her, he's a person again.

Nynaeve vs. Moridin

Moridin- yeah...

Unpowered Division
Lan vs. Rhuarc

Lan-- he's got the extras of being a warder I don't think Rhuarc would have the stamina

Mat vs. Birgite


lol my word verification is "finisher is"
Bonnie Andrews
121. misfortuona
Mat doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.
The story of his life. Well played.

ROFLMAO – I have to stop reading your posts at work.

One might think you were just trying to be contrary. Loved your commentary old man. :)

Excellent play on Mat/Birgitte

You now have my vote for best Rand/Egwene battle.

Mat/Birgitte Hmmm, never considered the first one back last one standing to win. :D Well done everyone.

Mis-continues to be impressed and entertained.
Pritesh Patil
122. MatHornsounder

Unpowered section: Lan Vs Rhuarch : is it even possible to predict this....what happens when two titans clash.....this is like a battle between the Olympian Gods and The Titans....

Lan says duty is heavier than a mountain and begins his attack on Rhuarch...
they both match each other blow for blow..
the fight continues for hours...both are of the same capabilities...but finally Rhuarch slows down and loses his stamina and Lan knocks him unconscious....his warder bond giving him the edge!!

Mat Vs Birgitte: Mat....coz he is Mat...(i think he might be Aemon reborn the king of Manetheren of yore)

Powered sections:

Rand vs egwene:
Egwene berates Rand for acting like an idiot and keeps on giving him a list of his mistakes..
Rand loses his cool and tries to use balefire....but controls himself and goes on the defensive against eg's weaves....seeing the Car a Carn in trouble, the Wise Ones and the Maidens of the Spear gang up on egwene...
Volia...its another victory for the DR!!
then another name is added to his list!

Moridin vs Nynaeve:
One second Both are seen walking into the Ring,
the next second Moridin is seen walkin out..hehehehehehe

TP prevails!!

then another name is added to his list!
123. Freelancer

Words are extremely powerful things. Some people deny this, but they err in doing so. At the same time, there are many cases in which the only power some words have is that which we give them. I understand that you are not going to like what I say next.

When someone employs a word in a context that doesn't include the meaning for which you would prefer that it be used, you have a choice. You can allow yourself to feel offense, pain, anguish, etc. from that misapplied word. Or you can realize that the context of the statement does NOT properly apply to the meaning you have for the word, and limit your own sensations to one of disappointment that the person hasn't a better grasp of language.

In case you would think to accuse me of being insensitive to your particular case, I am and have been a victim of a very long list of similarly inappropriate word usages for which nobody here should have to hear the details. Were I to personally carry the discomfort caused by each example of such over the years, I would certainly have been remanded to one or another mental facility by now. As a Christian, I am not pleased by Liegh's occasionally flippant use of "Jesus Christ!" as nothing more than an exclamation, but I see no value in commencing a subthread for the purpose of expressing that displeasure. I mention it now only as a relative example.

I say all of this not, as some might think, to get you to "lighten up", because you most certainly have a right to how you see things, rather to help you find a way to be less impacted by a behavior which is not likely to vanish anytime soon, but which you can alter your reception of.

For the record, in my past I coached a Special Olympics basketball team in my home town, young guys 9-12 years old. They named themselves The Retreads, and laughed like mad when other people were shocked.
Thomas Keith
124. insectoid
Hokay, semis...

Unpowered Division
- 1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc: Need I say Chuck Norris? ;)
- 2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte: Mat and Birgitte decide to settle for a drinking contest, and he drinks her under the table.

Powered Division
- 1. Rand v. 13. Egwene: Egs surrenders without a fight, and returns to the Tower.
- 2. Moridin v. 6. Nynaeve: Nyn is CMHB, but Ishydin has the TP. :( ::sniff::

R.Fife @95, et al: LOL. You guys/gals are hilarious.

M-0-M @110: Bravo!

j p
125. sps49
Unpowered Division

1. Lan- Is better rested with only one wife.

2. Mat- Lord of (Cage) Battles.

Powered Division

1. Rand- Hesitates, then remembers she will be born again and vaporizes Egwene.

2. Moridin- Again, TP trumps OP. Lan begins Sharpening the Sword.
126. Branwhin
Unpowered Division
- 1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc: Lan takes it, but only by touching Rhuarc while the latter is armed - taking several painful wounds in the process.

- 2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte: Mat and Birgitte decide to settle for a drinking contest, and he drinks her under the table.

Booyah! What Bug said. No way are those two going to try killing each other.

Powered Division
- 1. Rand v. 13. Egwene: Egwene will give him what-for and no mistake, both for oath-swearing/Compelling sisters (though when she learns the truth she'll stalk into the stands and box Logain's ears instead - where he's only just coming to from his singeing in the last round, minus his eyebrows and most of his hair, much to Gabrelle's annoyance) and for getting himself so badly hurt, on so many levels.
Yeesh, how's that for an extensive parenthetical reference?

- 2. Moridin v. 6. Nynaeve: Poor Lan. That's all I've got to say. Whether or not her ter'angreal work against the Toilet Paper (LOL - yes, I'd been thinking that too, particularly as it relates to the Giant Flaming Toilet), I think our dear Wisdom is toasty. Moridin doesn't play nice!

ROFL! Some of the comments are really creative. I hope Brandon and/or Harriet are getting a chuckle out of them!

M-0-M @110: Awesomesauce.
127. Branwhin
Awesome chapters, too, Leigh, and thanks for posting!

Elayne does indeed have a CMoA (and TVTropes has indeed sucked me in for days) here. I also like her humility; she is young and inexperienced, and she knows it, and if people around her advise her sensibly, she's if anything more ready to listen than most teens. (She also, alas, has a fondness for adventures and a bit of an 'I'm immortal' attitude which she can't afford, but hey)

That said, I also absolutely *loved* the comment about her wanting to shout "Boo!" I giggle every time I read that. And promptly get misty-eyed with Reanne's "I can be Green," and Elayne's wanting to hug her. RJ rocks.

And further with Mashiara ... I remember squeeing when I read the chapter name alone. Reunion, finally! A few scary moments in there, followed by triumph. Awesome.

Congrats on finding a new place, by the by, Leigh! And good luck finding assorted waterfowl.
Tina A
128. Tinaa
Unpowered Division

1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II
Kick-a** Clan Chief and One Man who is an entire people. Hmmm, tough call. After an intense battle, Lan touches Rhuarc with his blade, and Rhuarc dons the White. Hmmmm, Berelain and the dude in White… Food for thought? Lan wins.

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.
Mat’s luck is in fine fettle, until a stray raven deflects a silver arrow towards his heart. Tuon finally gives in, and channels to save Mat, throwing arrows of fire at Birgette. Mat is Disqualified, and Nyn brings Birgette back from the Dead. Birgette takes this one by default (even though I heart Mat). Then they all head to the tavern for a skin of wine. Birgette wins.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?
Eggs still loves Rand deep down, and as the Amyrlin with the most-est, decides she cannot stand against Rand. He has to be at the Last Battle no matter what. Egwene trips over her shawl, and retires injured. Rand walks from the arena, unbelievably relieved that he doesn’t have to add another name to the list. Rand wins.

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress?
Moridin lifts his arm to weave balefire, and appears extremely surprised when his hand doesn’t respond. Rand chuckles quietly at the sideline, holding his own arm in a vice-like grip. Nyn, in the surprise upset of the series, smacks Mori up the head with a well-aimed braid, then orders her newest gai’shain to bring her tea. Nyneave wins.
Roger Powell
130. forkroot
Oh, and the discussion regarding Nynaeve hitting Lan... It is recommended, in the event of a shark attack, that the victim hit the shark in the nose, eyes and gills. Don't know that it would really work, but that's the recommendation. :)
Almost all shark attacks occur when the victim is at the surface. The recommendation assumes that your upper body is above the water, in which case you would be able to swing your fist and attack any part of the shark that is at or above the waterline.

I'm a certified diver, and I have encountered all sorts of sharks while diving around the world. They generally ignore divers (although there are places where you might not care to test that.) The people that seem to be at the most risk are surfers. Regretfully, a surfer on a board (when viewed from underneath) can look a lot like an impaired sea lion.

This reminds me of one of the all-time best "Sherman's Lagoon" comic strips. In the first pane, Fillmore the turtle is reading a book and tells Sherman (a shark) that apparently the majority of shark attacks are a case of "mistaken identity".

Sherman says that is very true and states that just the other day he was preparing to attack Yanni in the water when he realized it was a bather who just looked like him (so he didn't attack.)

In the last pane, Megan (another shark) appears and excitedly exclaims "I just ate Yanni!" to which Sherman responds "see what I mean?".
131. FellKnight
Lan vs Rhuarc

In a duel of truly epic proportions, these two superhumans battle for hours without either so much as landing a blow on the other. Rhuarc's spear is a whir of speed and death. Lan's sword dancing is a thing of the utmost beauty.

Finally, after the hours and hours of combfor the at, Rhuarc eventually tires. Lan, due to his warder bond, has enough energy left to land the killing blow. Lan wins.

Mat vs Birgitte

The two BFFs refuse to fight each other. Birgitte tricks Mat into agreeing to a coinflip to determine the winner. Mat wins.

Rand vs Egs

Moridin vs Nynaeve

In a shocking decision worthy of the NFL owners conference, these fights are scheduled at the same time (but for different markets). As a result, when Rand tries to seize Saidin and Moridin attempts to bend the True Power to his will, both vomit furiously. Egwene shields Rand, binds him with the power, and demands his surrender. Filled with rage, but knowing that he really has no choice, he acquiesces. Nynaeve is not nearly so sympathetic. With a few of the more potent weaves that she has learned from Moghedien and Alivia, Nynaeve looses what called only be called by spectators as death made manifest onto the hapless Moridin. Nynaeve has to spend weeks cleaning the gore from her clothing.

Egs and Nynaeve to the finals. Rand and Moridin to the 3rd place match.

Lannis .
132. Lannis
@ FellKnight: Finally Mat has stopped drinking! I was beginning to wonder if he'd dry out in time to visit the Tower of Ghenjei... XD
Jacy Clark
134. Amalisa

Since I can count on one hand, with a finger or two left over, the number of times I've been in the ocean since "Jaws" was first released... I will bow to your expertise regarding when to hit a shark! *lol*
135. nor3
Freelancer@123: " have a choice..."

No. I don't. Do you think I like feeling this bad? Do you think, that if there was any way to convince myself to ignore these words, that I wouldn't leap at the chance? Do you honestly, in all seriousness, think that I wouldn't give the world to stop this?!

Some people have the luxury of choice. I envy them.
Alice Arneson
136. Wetlandernw
MasterAlThor @103, nor3, and many others - It's been addressed by several already, but I'll add a couple of bits anyway. For myself, I long since made the decision to develop a tough hide and not let it get to me, but... such decisions don't always help when something blindsides you in a susceptible moment. BTW, yes, they do still use "retardation" in a clinical sense.

I think the problem comes when a reasonable word with a specific meaning is used in an irrelevant context as an intentional insult. Unfortunately, most terms of abstract differentiation used to identify a particular group of people becomes, in common usage, a derogatory term within a matter of a few years. First it's used as an insult to those initially identified, then it becomes a general insult for anything or anyone.

You see it all the time, whether the initial term related to a disability, race, gender, political persuasion, religion... You name it, if there's a differentiation it will be made into an insult. That's the biggest reason I can choose to ignore it: people are stupid and rude by nature, and everyone has their blind spots. I know a lot of people use the term "retard" (or related terms). Some of them would also use it to describe my son, and mean it as an insult. Most people, though, have forgotten the implied insult and simply use it without thinking to describe anything from a careless mistake to something they think is criminally stupid. (Frankly, most people I know who do use the term would be horrified at the thought of applying it to my son!) While I wish people would stop using it so loosely as a derogatory term, the same is true of hundreds of other words we use on a daily basis. We are a society who speaks without thinking and habitually puts down anything different or unknown; until we can get beyond that, or until we learn to be more rigorous in our use of language, we'll continue to offend one another without even noticing.

But hey, it's a good excuse to link once again to my near-favorite rant. :)

nor3 - Yes, you do have a choice. You always have a choice. It's just not always easy, and it's not necessarily as straightforward as "I choose not to be insulted." But that's a whole different discussion, and one I'd just as soon not pursue here.
Ron Garrison
137. Man-0-Manetheran
Oh, thanks so much for that link, Wet! Hmmm. Does the woman remind you of any particular WoT character? One that some are afraid to mention??? LOL
Tina Pierce
138. scissorrunner
1. Lan v. 5. Rhuarc. Laman's War II.
King v. Clan Chief – as much as he outranks you Rhuarc, he out awesomes you too. You danced well, just not good enough

2. Mat v. 3. Birgitte. Battle of Best Buddies. Tough matchup for Mat.
Mat swallows hard & pulls at the cord holding his foxhead medallion as he sees his opponent for this match, dice rattling hard in his head. “Just how many dice are rattling now?” he wonders. Birgitte smiles and raises her bow. Mat spins his ashandarei low, wiping Birgitte’s feet out from under her. She flips back up letting a silver arrow fly before landing back on her feet. The arrow flys past an astonished Mat as he stumbles out of its path. “Flaming dice, how can I fight with all that noise in my head?” Arrow after arrow fly through the air closer & closer to their target as Mat slashes & jabs his ashandarei. Suddenly, the dice stop. So does Mat.

Powered Division

1. Rand v. 13 Egwene. Captains of the two main Light teams go head to head for the first time since dancing at Bel Tine. Will Rand feel the Amyrlin's anger?
The former sweethearts from back home face each other with a bow & curtsy. Then, both freeze, seeming to not even breathe. Static fills the air. Lights flicker and a haze creeps across the floor. The room darkens, and suddenly is plunged into darkness deeper than in the pits of Hathesin (OK, I know I spelled that wrong, can’t find my books). A light, weak at first, then stronger as it is joined by others reveals a weeping Rand cradling a cold, stiff Egwene.

2. Moridin v. 6 Nyneave. Blue Eyes and Dimple v. Braid and Kisain. Can our gal pull yet another upset out of her well-tailored, ultra-clingy blue and yellow silk dress?

Saa float across eyes, a braid is tugged. Nyneave pours the tea. “Choose” she says. “One cup has poison, the other does not.” Moridin snarls “Tea?, you fight with Tea? Foolish girl, I’ll drink your tea, then your blood!!” he reaches for a cup, a loud cry “Wisdom! NO!” breaks Nyneave’s attention for only a second, but Moridin has switched the cups. “We drink together girl!!” he cries. Cups are raised, and drained quickly. Moridin chortles, “HAH! I switched the cups!, Don’t you know never to bet against the Naeblis when death is on the line? Ha Ha..Ha Ha..Ha…….”
As he falls stiffly to one side, Nyneave tugs her braid in satisfaction and mutters “and you thought Andilay root was only for fatigue, it’s a wonderful anti-toxin. Both cups were poisoned.”
Alice Arneson
139. Wetlandernw
Man-0-Manetheran @137 - Oh, help! My sides hurt!! Yes, indeed, they could probably be twins!

scissorrunner @138 - Moridin & Nynaeve - Oh help! some more!!

*sigh* My husband once again is confirmed in his belief that I've completely lost it... :)

P.S. "Do not be sad. I await your call, Hornsounder." Pure awesome. Best of the bunch. Which is saying something, because there's been some good stuff!
Thomas Keith
140. insectoid
Branwhin @126: A thanks-for-the-shout-out Booyah right back at'cha! ;)

FellKnight @131: Well done!
It just occurred to me... With Rand nearby (or so I assume), couldn't Mat's coin land on edge (like in TSR ch. 57)? ;)

::still laughing hysterically at the votes::

::remembers to breathe::

Rob Munnelly
141. RobMRobM
Nor3, Free, Wet and others. I'm in the speak up and ask people please not to use a potentially derogatory word camp. Words have power and can cause repeated harm to a subgroup even if much of the use of the term does not intent harm. Use of such term by someone out of ingnorance to the harm to a subgroup provides a teachable moment that can help people learn to avoid using the potentially hurtful word and, thereby, lessen the harm to the subgroup. The English language has lots of nouns and adjectives - it is ok to remind people to think and consider use of a less hurtful descriptive term. (There is a separate issue about people in such groups learning not to be hurt by use of such term but that is for another day.)

John Massey
142. subwoofer
@Mis- me? Contrary? Noooooo. Can't be.;)

But I do wish we had a better vote on the rankings from the start. It felt like some wonky intergalactic scheme lumped NO and Indy in the same division from the start and they played each other in the first round of the playoffs. Impossible as that scenario plays out, some of the tier set up for the 16 feels that way. I mean, come on, we left out all the deathwatch guard. How is that possible? And Lan is the only borderlander? Things that make me go hmmmmmmmmm. Faile doesn't count.

John Massey
143. subwoofer
I spend most of my time barking at passing cars, as witnessed by me staying out of the sad Mat/Tylin debate. Man did I have stuff to say, but geeze, I am not subtle and surely a flame war would have begun. Yes, I know, I flatter myself, but some incendiary comments would be so easy to point out the err of people's ways.

soap box time

Seems to me, every body wants to be a victim these days. The news is full of people, who are on the fringe of actually incidents, crying and wailing with the "ahhh, look at me, I have nothing to do with this but I am crying about it" look. Or,"ahh, this is a non-event but I'm going to make a big deal out of this". Then everybody has to walk on eggshells around them. Not a big fan of that. There are wayyyy too many slow news days lately.

For me, there are many things that I can be up in arms about, on a daily basis. Heck, I live in the redneck capital of Canada. The amount of ignorance and small mindedness I have dealt with is mind-bottling;) But whatever, if I let that phase me, I would not get out of the house in the morning. I can choose to be affected by this or let it roll off my back. If I see stuff, I have no problems calling people on it, but I'm still sleeping at night.

IMHO we are treading on dangerous ground when we are starting to talk about taking certain words out of our vocabulary. The "N" word I can understand, as there is no way it can be held up in a positive light. Fags, well, venture across the pond and it is all about cigarettes. Gay, reminds me of this scene from Doogie Howser MD(and I have hunted for this clip, no hulu in Canada) where his best friend has been getting along famously with another guy and then is broken to that the particular person is "gay". And the immediate reply is "he has a happy disposition?" Cracked me up when I saw it. For me, if a person wants to be offended, they will be offended. I have seen cucumber used as a "bad" word. Do we stop referring to cucumbers now? Anyways, as Free has said, the power of a word is in the eyes of the beholder.

When we are treading on censorship ground and restricting freedom of speech, I always see warning signs and slam on the brakes. Don't get me into quoting Mark Twain or To Kill a Mockingbird. Each of these are filled with hurtful words, but do we ban the books from our kids or burn them? Or do we educate and learn from history? For me, that is the crux of this whole subject. And for me, I will always choose freedom of speech.

Steps off soap box. Sunday morning, 0900. Dang. I could use a drink. Dang. One more week for Easter. Goes off to raid kitchen... maybe a carb binge will quiet this...

144. nor3
Subwoofer@143 : So, in other words, it's perfectly ok for people to use words that they know are hurtfull to others?
145. MasterAlThor
Wet, Free and Sub....

The eloquence of your words always puts me in awe. I bow to your superior understanding.

I find myself nodding with Free, that you have a choice to not be offended.

I love Wetlander's favorite rant.

I am also in agreement with Sub's take that we can't restrict speech.

This is what is great about all of us. We are on the same side, and approach it from different angles.


My wife would love you.

Pritesh Patil
146. MatHornsounder
@ Whoever is fighting/arguing/discussing:

Remember a Pen is mightier than a use your words with care....

For its only words and words are all i have to take your heart away..!!!!!

;) :) :D
John Massey
147. subwoofer
@nor- so in other words it is perfectly okay to repress speech for fear of offending somebody?

edit- and let me answer your question with an emphatic "hell yes". If that is what it takes to retain my rights to say what I want, then that is the price of free speech.

So if I choose a world like cucumber and just say this and that about those flippin' cucumbers. I hate cucumbers- they are so out there! It is not natural! Cucumbers go against everything in the Bible. So, do we ban the word cucumbers now? Or do we realize that it is the intent of the word and not the word itself that is the problem?

148. Speradigm
Why is having enough respect for a people not to dishonor them in your speaking repressing your speach? Once you become aware that pieces of popular language are used to belittle a group of people why would you choose to continue to dishonor them. I don't consider it repression, rather a breaking out of ignorance and a choice of respect.
149. Speradigm
Besides, people speak with such a lack of creativity these days that it would be refressing to find more innocuous insults.
150. nor3
@sub : " ...and let me answer your question with an emphatic "hell yes". If that is what it takes to retain my rights to say what I want, then that is the price of free speech."

Ah, I see. Your right to free speech is more important than my right to feel like a human being. Glad we cleared that up.
151. FellKnight
Subwoofer @143

*Standing ovation* Extremely well said.

Nor3 @various

The thing which you seem to be refusing to acknowledge is that no, the world does not owe you a happy time in it. You are the only one responsible for that, but hopefully you find people (family, friends, soulmates) who will travel that journey with you, making it a richer journey for all involved.

You feel that it is your right to be offended when others use words that you find hurtful. This is absolutely true. You may take any experience which is negative in this life and you may either brood over it or you can seize the opportunity it provides to improve yourself and (to try to help) others.

Those like subwoofer and I, and many many others, do not intend insult when we use words. Sometimes, the word is simply the way that makes you feel that you have gotten your message across the best. Sidebar here, this is the main reason why I am vehemently against censorship in media (think TV, music, movies). Sometimes, the most appropriate response to someone is "You ****ing ****sucker!!!

That being said, I do not go out of my way to insult (far from it), and I will usually acquiesce to a civil request from somebody who feels insulted (an example that comes to mind, here, would be using the c*** word to describe certain women. Some women, to my mind, deserve the moniker, but when my friend said that she hated the word and did not like hearing it, as a friend, I agreed to not use it in her presence.)

In short (after the wall of text, of course), I reiterate the worldview that you have rejected earlier that you can choose to be insulted or not. My own personal example is myself. I have been a big boy all my life, was called fat throughout my life, and am currently 6'0" and 270 pounds (not all fat of course, but enough). My nickname from my friends and coworkers is "Big D". I could have chosen to take this as an insult about my size. I do not. I have embraced the nickname, and in so doing have taken the power it may have held over me away. I have also become one of the more respected co-workers due to other positive attributes, such as work ethic, attitude, etc.

I have the power over words. They do not have power over me.

Sorry for the wall.

Thomas Keith
152. insectoid
Sub @143, Fell @151: Well said!

Uh, RobM²... you might want to move up the timetable on the next cage match before this thread starts to unravel...

Noneo Yourbusiness
153. Longtimefan
I have found a soap box and I doubt anyone will really like that. The Warning ends.

Here is the short version:

The character of the person using the word and how they use it does have some bearing on the impact of the word.

Having read every one of the re-reads and intending to read every one forthcoming I do not claim to "know" Ms. Butler but the quality of her character is part of her writing and to me it is clear that she had no intention of using the word in a harmful way.

The rest is just some blah, blah, blah.

Wall of text to follow.


This is not really going to be Wheel of Time related but commentary related about this particular bit.

"the Tower’s sheer arrogance in assuming that other women would simply give up using their Phenomenal Cosmic Power, just because they don’t get to be in the Aes Sedai Sooper Sekrit Club. Many points go to the Supergirls for always thinking this outlook was retarded,"

the subject of the term in question is the outlook (opinion held by people) not the people themselves.

The outlook was limited and not moving forward. There are also materials that prevent high intensity heat transference and they are called "fire retardant" Should this be changed because the word can upset people? Yes, there are people who have used the word in an unpleasant way and that shows their ignorance but I do not think this is one of those situations.

The word in question is not to be confused with either of the other two examples that other people have posted.

The N word to my knowledge was never intended to have any other meaning than a derogatory one. It was intend to keep people segregated and the use of it today has not changed. Even when people attempt to "claim it for themselves". It is a term that separates.

As for "gay" I have already erased three very long posts about that term and society and how it limits people and perceptions.

The short version is this. It means "light hearted and happy". If it is used that way then fine. Yes there are people who have chosen to use that label for themselves as a subculture and it is much easier than saying "person in a relationship with someone of the same gender". (homosexual and heterosexual describe actions not people)

That being said the current trend (of the past 10 years) to use the term to mean "undesirable" is an attempt to make a derogatory synonym out of a currently (somewhat) non-derogatory word. This is inappropriate but again shows the ignorance of the user.

I am skipping past a lot of things like the British use of the term "Fag" origins and cigarettes and "freedom of speech" and "choosing to be offended." because I am going for as non ranty as possible.

Specifically to nor3 @ 96

As one "fag" to another nor3 my advice to you would be to get some logic and perspective before you let your emotions rule your actions too often. I can understand the person using a term that is intended to be derogatory on purpose around you or at you making you feel uncomfortable.

This comment is a bit much.

"The feeling is indescribeable. Its like your soul has been sucked out. Every time."

Really? Odd. That is entirely all you. I came out to my parents just before entering high school in 1983. My parents said it was not possible because gays are mentally defective and will never know love. I went to a high school of 3,000 students with not one other person willing to come out. I have been around many unpleasant conversations and situations. I have been beaten up because people are idiots when they dislike an idea and you may be the only representative of that idea in the area.

Through all of that and the constant verbal negativity that has been socially acceptable when talking about "fags" for the last 3 decades I have lived through it I never felt like my "soul has been sucked out. Every time."

That is too much power to give your attacker. period.

I do not agree with everything in the world and I know the world does not agree on everything with me. But that does not mean that letting it hurt me so deeply that I feel powerless before it is a good idea.

nor3, I hope that you are not harmed for who you are or what you chose to believe but I am not the only person in the world. :) Someone, somewhere will say something stupid and it will irritate you. Probably me, probably right now. :) If you can know what you believe and explain yourself clearly you have done what you can.

That being said, I am not going to change my opinion about the use of a word in one context based on the use of a different word in a different context.

As I said above, the character of the person using the word and how they use it does have some bearing on the impact of the word.

Having read every one of the re-reads and intending to read every one forthcoming I do not claim to "know" Ms. Butler but the quality of her character is part of her writing and to me it is clear that she had no intention of using the word in a harmful way.
John Massey
154. subwoofer

Now I will reiterate what I have said in the past about a fools errand. I have said my opinion, other people have respectfully said theirs. I believe we can now all agree to disagree rather than drag the obvious out forever and deal in circular arguments.

I am sure we all would rather discuss weightier topics- Like why the frig is Mat getting so much props for his fighting skills when he has had other people pull his chestnuts out of the coals on several occasions. I am differentiating battle knowledge from fighting ability here folks.

155. rokica
I have to admit, I totally don't get the "can you make sure she knows it's not me" line OR Lan's response to it. Can someone explain?

First of all, why should Myrelle care who Lan sleeps with? I sort of understand why Nyn would want to rub Myrelle's nose in it, but I just don't see that Myrelle would care.

And why does that make her a hawk? And what IS a hawk?

Kathy Keith
156. Babokathy
On Cage Matches: These matches are a HOOT!

**Babokathy now opens her new Shoppe: The Alligator-Skin Boutique. For all entrants with Thin Skin!**

A WOT Cage Match is as likely a place to put some of our "Gentle Readers" as Miss Manners likes to say. To be politically incorrect, I should like to suggest we toss "nor3" and "jdm", and other gentle combatants into a Cage together with UZY Squirt Guns! Might knock some of that "Hot Air" out of them!

For Heaven's Sake, Grow Up People! Slang has been around since the beginning of language! Every generation of people invent their "new" uses for words to be different.

"Antiestablishmentarianism" wasn't invented in the late '60's, as my generation might have you believe!!! My parents had us inventing new uses for adjectives/adverbs constantly. THEY started speaking like us! We couldn't stand it!

Freelancer, I am in agreement with your eloquently written observations, as well as several other commentors who are able to be mature and objective readers/writers/speakers. Most of you use clear, meaningful language which is a refreshing attribute.
Jacy Clark
157. Amalisa

The quote is "Is there any way to make sure she knows that it's me". There's no "not" in it. In other words, Nynaeve wants Myrelle to know that she and Lan are together as husband and wife. The hawk is a fierce bird. My thought is that he meant it in that way.
Jacy Clark
158. Amalisa
Regarding words that hurt...

It starts when we are children, you know. If we're lucky, it only happens to us on the playground - quick, taunting little bursts of cruelty at which children seem to excel. (I am *mumbles* years old, and I still remember, from the fifth grade, the name of one particularly noxious girl who took great delight in calling attention to my nose, which is not exactly perky. Susan S__________m, wherever you are... tttthhhhrrrrpppptttt.) I say we're lucky, as children, if the verbal barrage only happens on the playground because, as we all know, it can be particularly virulent at home. "Don't be stupid!" "How could you be so stupid!" "I don't care!" "You'll never amount to anything." "You're worthless." "You're fat." "You're ugly." "I don't love you!" And, in the case of a much vilified and absent parent, "you're just like your father/mother!" (My particular favorite.) Even if we shrug it off on the outside, it sets a trigger within us that makes us hear negative, hurtful words a little more readily. The harsher and more prolonged the childhood experiences, the more sensitive that trigger can be. And it can take years - long, long years - to learn not to let it get to us. Or act like it doesn't. Life, sometimes, is a minefield; our old memories/triggers can reach up and get us with out warning - no matter how immured we think those memories/triggers might be.

Then there are the other words...

The n-word... I have hated that word since I was a child, and with a passion that is almost holy in its intensity. Growing up in the South in the sixties, I heard it a lot. I'm not black. I'm so white I can't even tan. There isn't time here to go fully into the reason why I hate the word, except to say that love is at the heart of it and when I hear the word, I hear an attack on someone I loved with all my heart. So, it's personal for me - but not first-person personal. It will never be an attack on me, individually. And no matter how much I empathize, I can never fully appreciate the hurt. So I over-compensate with anger. (For that reason, too, I've also been more sensitive to other words that can hurt other people.)

With the exception of one archaic and coincidentally similar word, however, the n-word is meant to insult one group of people only. It cannot be applied to any other group. The developmentally disabled and the LGBT aren't so lucky. The words that are offensive in their cases show up everywhere and in other contexts that are perfectly legitimate and with no intent to hurt or offend.

The words as they appear in the dictionary, with their non-pejorative meanings:
Retard: To slow
Gay: Happy, joyful, lively, colorful
Queer: Odd, eccentric
Fag: To tire; a cigarette


For the developmentally disabled... Thinking about the r-word (and it pretty much has that status with me) is what made me think back to childhood, because it was a favorite taunt on the playgrounds of my youth. It was the first time I realized how cruel my contemporaries could be to others, and I didn't understand it. Again, maybe because of a pre-existing sensitivity (see above), I would cringe when I heard it and disassociate myself from playmates who used it. And the irony is that there were no developmentally challenged children in my school! This was way before the days of special ed classrooms or attempts to mainstream special needs kids. But the children knew that this word was guaranteed to get a rise out of someone - whether it was good for sparking a fight (always entertaining for elementary school children) or making someone cry (which would open up another round of insults that would be equally entertaining). Where did they even learn the word? Home, I suppose. But wherever they acquired the word, it took on a new, hurtful meaning - because that was how it was perceived. I don't know... maybe we of that generation have carried the negative connotations forward - visiting those sins on our children and our children's children...

For the LGBT community... I think - and I may be way off base here so, please, feel free to correct me! - but the word "gay"... It was a word used by songwriters, by poets, and was largely in disuse by the general public in day-to-day speech after, say, the Gay Nineties (that would be the 1890's) or unless one lived in or visited Gay Paree. Neither of which refers to homosexuality. (Except in the very funny song from "Victor/Victoria".) At Christmas, we (my generation) would sing "don we now our gay apparel" or "make the Yuletide gay", with no snickers or stumbling or word substitution. Until, oh, about the late 70's, early 80's. When the LGBT community began to assert their demands for equal rights. Now, let me be very clear. I am not - NOT! - inferring in any way, shape, form or fashion that the gay community doesn't deserve equal rights. I cannot state that strongly enough. I have been schooled waaay too thoroughly by my friends in the gay community - even over and above my own conscience. But as the demands grew louder, so did the confusion over words that were not, on their face, meant to be hurtful, derogatory or demeaning. As in, what did we - as a society - do with those words now?

I think about the tv series, "Will & Grace" - created, written and produced by a gay man. Some in the gay community love it, some hate it. Some say it didn't do enough to tear down stereotypes. Some say it went overboard and created its own backlash. How many times - using your example, nor3 - did Will tell Jack that something or other he was doing was gay, or comment on how "gay" something was? If the word was used once in an episode, it was used a dozen times. And often exactly in the way you are talking about. So it was okay when used between two gay men? Or by a straight woman who obviously is close friends with a gay man? "Will & Grace" was an extremely popular television show, and is still in syndication today, like, everywhere. And it isn't the only example. Can you see where there might be a mixed message?

Let me speak directly to you, nor3. I get a very strong sense of your hurt through your postings. I cannot relate to you directly on this subject but I can and do empathize with you strongly on how words are damaging you. Listen to me carefully: you must do whatever it takes to overcome this. Get counseling. Find a support group. Learn to put some distance between the ignorance of others and your wounded heart because, hon, there will always be ignorant people. Always. That isn't going to change. Ever. (And by "ignorant people" I mean those who deliberately use those words to be hurtful and hateful. I don't mean anyone who says something innocently.) Even if you have to "fake it to make it", do it. It can be done. The only way it can't is if you surrender to it. Sometimes, it will seem like the fight is all you have. But it's like overcoming anything negative in our lives - it takes time, perseverence, trial and error, temporary failures and trying again. As long as you keep trying, they don't win.
Thomas Keith
159. insectoid
Babo @156: Thanks Babo!

Amalisa @158: Bravo! Well said. And, just for Susan what's-her-name:


Tina Pierce
160. scissorrunner
babo - couldn't have said it better!!!!!!!!!!! (and my sides now hurt, thank you very much)

btw, can I get a job at your new shop? my hide is tough enough to deal with all of your clientele
Alice Arneson
161. Wetlandernw
Just as a completely irrelevant note... (Irrelevant to WoT, anyway.) I think the realization of how words affect individuals has influenced the amount of time I spend working on my posts here. I generally write, edit, reread, edit some more, and check it again before I post. Partly that's because I hate posting something with obvious spelling, grammatical or punctuation errors, so I try to make sure I find them before I post. Partly it's because I get irritated at the sloppiness which so often characterizes the speech and writing of the general American public. (Honestly, I think half the "cussing" that takes place in our society is because people are too lazy to think of a more appropriate word, and the vulgarity gets the offensiveness across without any mental effort.) Partly it's because if I'm going to insult someone, I want to do it on purpose and not just because I was careless in my choice of words. :>

Fortunately I don't do this for pay, or I'd never make any money. It takes too long.
John Massey
162. subwoofer
@Babo- can I do part time in your shop?

I may not have the thickest skin, but my head is very dense. Does that count?

Jacy Clark
163. Amalisa

Wow! Bill! Awesome!! Thanks!! :D
164. nor3
Amalisa@158 : Thanks. A lot. Really. Have you considered a career as a motivational speaker?
165. FellKnight

Wonderful. Exceedingly well-written. Brava!

Rob Munnelly
166. RobMRobM
Time on the cagematch. Results will follow shortly. R
Rob Munnelly
167. RobMRobM
Cagematch results

Lan in an overwhelming win over Rhuarc, 17 v. 4.

Ditto (same scores) re Rand over Egwene, and Moridin over Nyneave.

Mat wins in a total that is far closer than it appears, 13 v. 5 with 4 ties (with the two of them either going drinking and forgetting about the match or giving up on the match). In a substantial minority of match ups, the two decided to settle the dispute in a drinking contest with Mat generally prevailing - ah, friendship.

Kudos to all for voting the remarkable range of descriptions for the individual matches. Princess Bride references and Tar Valon fried dragons indeed....

Finals to be teed up in my next post.

Rob (Cagemaster).
Rob Munnelly
168. RobMRobM
Quality pays off in our finals, are we pair two 1 v. 2 seed matches and a 1 v. 3. (Complaints about the initial seedings - Sulin fans in particular - should be directed to the complaint department and the Department manager, Mr. Shadar Haran. His decisions are very final and sure to leave a mark.)

Girlfight -

After their bye to allow for omen-hunting and to allow all three finals to be decided simultaneously in a single post we have:

1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona (damn you Rfife for having that Knack song running through my head), skilled fighter and incipient channeler - should she choose to do so.

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

Voting closes at 10 a.m. on Tuesday EST. Sleep well and wake.

Rob (Cagemaster)
169. MasterAlThor
While catching up on the post for the day, I noticed that we all are still on the same side here. Even if Sub says that we have to agree to disagree, he is not advocating that we should be callous in our speech.

Fell, said that he has power over words not the other way around. Amalisa says that we attach that pain to earlier experiences. Babo says sticks and stones.

What I am saying is that we all respect each other. We all look at each other as human first. Sex, prefrences, religon and whatever come a distant second.

I don't care if a person is gay or whatever. You are a person. I treat you like a person until you decide that isn't good enough. Then I treat you like person even more cause that is all you are going to get from me. Not saying that nor3 is asking for anything more than that.

Thick skin is good. Maturity is good. But wrong needs to be stamped out. Willfully saying something to insult a person based on their color, sex, religon, or preference, or mental ability is wrong in the worst kind of way. And I will stand against anyone who does that.

But I don't have to worry about that here as we are all family. So we kinda get on each others nevers a bit, so what. That is what families do. We also help (Amalisa) and we also smack each other upside the head once in awhile (Babo).

Just remember, in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make.

Thomas Keith
170. insectoid
Amalisa @163: Had to do it... this thread needed some good cheer. :)

CageM² @167: Whah? Nynaeve lost?? Oh the horror! Need to do something about that...

CageM² @168:
His decisions are very final and sure to leave a mark.

Hmm, tough choices...

Girlfight Final
- 1. Selucia v. 3. Fortuona: Tuon finally channels, and trips up Selucia, allowing her to strike the killing blow.

Unpowered Final
- 1. Lan v. 2. Mat: Lan can put that mountain down now, because Mat is still canned badass.

Powered Final
- 1. Rand v. 2. Moridin: With his dying breath— oh wait. Rand unleashes a huge stream of balefire at Moridin, which is strong enough to bring back Nynaeve. Rand then has to tell Nyn the bad news...

MAT @169: Ah yes, "The End". ;)

Rob Munnelly
171. RobMRobM
OK - now that the fun stuff is over with...

One final point on the interesting and informative free speech/hurtful speech discussion earlier. As anyone who has read George Orwell can attest, words matter and attitudes can be ingrained through imprecise speech. My point from my earlier post still holds: if people are using words that may hurt others, it is a teachable moment and I reserve the right to tell them of my concerns as to the unintended harm. It is a free speech issue - in the sense that a potential problem is attacked through more speech rather than a prior restraint on speech - which is the correct (and perhaps only) way to address an issue of this type. Having had the issue raised to them, people on the receiving end can then make their own decisions how to communicate.

One can also see it as a matter of courtesy. If you are doing something that potentially bothers me or others, I see it as courteous to let you know that you may be using a term that is causing unintended harm. Those on the receiving end can determine whether the concern is valid and whether courtesy will dictate a different choice of words that will get the intended point across without the unintended harms.

This matters to me, as I have seen a generally beneficial evolution of language choices that implicitly denigrated people of color and woman towards language choices that hold the potential for equality and, closer to home, as the parent of a developmentally delayed child. People deserve to be judged on their worth as individuals rather than as members of classes that can, and historically, have, been put down through imprecise or hurtful language. More and better speech is a worthwhile goal for all of us.

172. mattyh
@subwoofer, amalisa - well said.

having always been a 'minority' in some ways (racial, orientation), i think it's just part of the growing up process to realise that words and their meanings are all about intent. this is what communication is. trying to maintain political/literal correctness in social interaction just leads to poor communication because you're compromising.

words are a tool, used by the wielder to craft their sentences. being offended when people use words in a manner different to your own is like.."what? you're using a tablespoon to stir your coffee??" /sniff.

sometimes people just don't have teaspoons or paddlepop sticks handy, and they have to use what's at their disposal. sometimes, if it's a really big mug, a tablespoon is better than a teaspoon.

and finally, i can't really say this delicately, but - if you get offended when people use 'gay' to describe something, you should get over yourself, or you're going to live a life of disappointment, anguish and ire.

i apologise if i sound insensitive. it's what sometimes happens when you go from idealism to realism to cynicism ;)
Tina Pierce
173. scissorrunner
bows to the master
yes, we are family, thanks for the reminder......

now kids -knock it off or I'll send you to your rooms!!!
174. MasterAlThor
And now...........................


Quality pays off in our finals, are we pair two 1 v. 2 seed matches and a 1 v. 3. (Complaints about the initial seedings - Sulin fans in particular - should be directed to the complaint department and the Department manager, Mr. Shadar Haran. His decisions are very final and sure to leave a mark.)

Ok, seriously? You just now decide to acknowledge this? I am sending in my complaints with recommondations that you sir be sactioned. Neeeyyaaaa.

Girlfight -

After their bye to allow for omen-hunting and to allow all three finals to be decided simultaneously in a single post we have:

1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona (damn you Rfife for having that Knack song running through my head), skilled fighter and incipient channeler - should she choose to do so.

The omens all said it would be....Selucia's D cups beat Tuon's A's

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

In the undercard matchup, THE baddest man on the planet, who doesn't weld the one power, vs the luckiest man on the planet. Sub had it right here, Mat has less fighting skill. Lan wins.

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

And in our main event. Moiridin is cocksure he can call on toilet paper, he has the DO on his side and he is Ne'blis with three...ooops, two women now....errr, make that one, oh crikey, ummm yeah he doesn't have any back up anymore. Rand wins.

175. MasterAlThor
One last thing...


I am *mumbles* years old

I'm sorry could you speak a little louder? Some of us old people didn't quite hear you.


Richard Fife
176. R.Fife
My cage-match votes:
Selucia. She's the Truthspeaker now, which means she is actually allowed to smack the empress if needs be, so she doesn't have the stigma of the thought. Fight is non-fatal, as she just gives Fortuona a good drubbing to knock some sense into her.

Mat. Mat is a combative badass. He did, after all, kill Couldin, who was accounted as an amazing fighter, if a hothead. The only times he needs his bacon pulled out of the fire is whenever he is dealing with lots of zombie-people, or power-derived baddies. Lan is neither, and he is already distressed. I say, Lan's blood ends up pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain.

On the top seed Powered battle... RAFO
177. Cadsuwallop
I just want to take a moment to tell you all how impressed I am with the way even the touchiest of topics are handled here. This is such a diverse and passionate group. The way everyone is treated with respect and honor gives me hope for mankind.

Thank you for allowing me to be party to your collective wisdom and wit. You people are one of the highlights of my day.

Peace to all.
Thomas Keith
178. insectoid
R.Fife @176:
On the top seed Powered battle... RAFO
LOL... So, is it "Read And Find Out", or "Richard And Find Out"? Or even "Rickroll And Find Out"? ;)

Richard Fife
179. R.Fife
Insectoid @ 178

RAFO (Yes, I RAFO'd a RAFO. I feel so... ebil)
180. MasterAlThor

You are most welcome.

I expect my $50 in mail.....err, did I just say that out loud?

Seriously, you are welcome. And we are happy to have you be apart of our family.

181. Freelancer

I agree with you completely. Speak up about things which bother you, indeed. I do not use nor condone most of what is generally considered profanity, and will be quite confrontational with someone using it in conversation with me. I never suggested that nor3 was wrong in his original response, which was to ask Leigh to reconsider her use of words.

I chose to address his description of the depth of discomfort he is caused by his reception of other's words. It concerns me greatly that he allows himself to feel such pain, regardless of the intent of the speaker. One might be malicious, another flippant, yet another completely ignorant (I can say that, can't I?), and I get the impression from his comments that he would be as deeply wounded in all three cases.


Yes. You always, always, always have a choice. Your current choice is to allow everyone whose words don't meet your prescription of proper, to cause you pain. If this remains true, then you will always be in pain because of words. It is an unfortunate fantasy to suppose that you will succeed in a campaign to remove all "improper" usages of words from spoken or written media. There must come a strength from within you to step above those things, instead of dwelling within them.

As an aside, do you ever use foul language "just for effect"?
John Massey
182. subwoofer
Geeze! Folks are really out to push my buttons. Luckily I have thin skin and a thick skull... or something like that.

Anyways, I am still smarting about the cage match pairings, and I have already filed my protest papers with SH- to be reviewed.

It's go time!

Girl fight. - The ta-tas have it. Selucia by a landslide. Uses her bra in classic David vs. Goliath tactics.

Hardcore match up. I don't get it. Swiss cheese here folks. And if not for Tuon's intervention, Mat would have been toast in that alleyway. And Noal bailing him out, and IMHO Mat caught the two er... merry blades unawares. And don't forget that he lives in constant fear of several warders. And Coulie doesn't count. Aiel yes. Normal, rational Aiel badass, not so much. Let him go up against Gaul or that other big fluffy guy or something. Anyways, point is, Lan's left nostril could blow Mat down. Fini.

Juiced match up. Well, if Rand doesn't make it, this is all duck soup so he's in it to win. Mind you, with my previous predictions, this is all moot as Bela comes out on top at the end anyways.

183. FellKnight
1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona

Fortuona expects obedience from her so'jihn. In her arrogance, however, she forgets that a truthspeaker cannot be questioned, and can punish even the Empress. Selucia turns Fortuona over her knee (yes, Leigh, I went there!), and lays down a beating that would have impressed Anath.

Selucia FTW.

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

Driven half-mad by the loss of his wife, Lan is unable to maintain the deadly focus that is required to duel at the highest levels. Power-wrought sword meets power-wrought spearhead. The sparking that results causes Lan to begin to lose control. With a roar of rage, he launches an all-out attack. Lightning of Three Prongs is deflected by Drawings in the Sand. The Boar rushes downhill is met by The Clock Strikes Twelve. Lan attempts The River Undercuts the Bank, but the gambler jumps over the sword and thrusts his Ashanderai into Lan's heart.

The dice in Mat's head come to a thundering stop.

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

Rand and Callandor approach from the corner, the crystal blade in his hands beginning to shimmer.

Moridin approaches from the shadows, and says "It is time to end this, Lews Therin." "Indeed" replies the Dragon.

Rand stretches his fingers out in a fan, shooting arrows of fire at Moridin. Sa'a begin flowing across the eyes of the Nae'blis as he weaves a shield of the True Power to block the attack.

Moridin channeling the True Power allows Rand to see a rope, darker than the darkest pitch, connecting Moridin to something infinite. Rand strikes at it with a razor sharp weave of Saidin. Moridin slices the weave, but is shocked as the pain of the sliced weave hurts him instead of Rand!

The Dragon notices the pain caused to the Nae'blis, but does not truly feel his own pain, locked away as he is in the Void.

Moridin knows fear. He sees that defence will cost him this match, and he channels the balefire. Rand instinctively twists Callandor in the path of the oncoming destruction and channels. The weave parts to either side of Rand, destroying the cage behind.

Callandor burns to the touch as Rand draws upon it's power to construct a shield around Moridin... a shield which will stop anything except balefire from going in or out.

Moridin's eyes bulge. He knows that even the attempt to cut this weave would probably render him unconscious at best, severed at worst. He notices, however, Rand swaying on his feet. "Of course!", he thought, "Lews Therin is being suffocated too! I just have to hold on longer than him!"

As Rand falls to his knees, the effort of holding the shield is overwhelming, but he must continue. He must... all goes black, and Callandor clattered to the ground next to the unmoving shapes of both Rand and Moridin.

Three days later, Rand wakes on a boat surrounded by Elayne, Min, and Aviendha. Nynaeve is wearing a look of utmost satisfaction.

"Nynaeve? How? You're dead!" spluttered Rand.
"I most certainly am not!" said she.
"Rand al'thor, you must prepare yourself for battle" Aviendha said solemnly.

Rand looked out at Dragonmount. The great mountain was now red and smoking. Hideous beasts circled in the air, and countless shadowspawn marched on Tar Valon.

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle", Rand thought wryly.
Hurin Smells
184. HurinSmells
The whole thing with language and how it's useage evolves has pretty much been done to death here, so I'll just say this:

60 years ago when 2 white guys were talking about a black guy and referred to him using the "N" word, they didn't think they were being racist or offensive.

The black guy did though.
Thomas Keith
186. insectoid
Fell @183: ::thunderous applause::

Barry T
187. blindillusion
=) I'm back now...somewhat. Have to read through the comments of 17, read 18 and then read 18's comments...but I'll probably be back to many-post-mode shortly....

For those who were curious.
j p
188. sps49
Nonfatal fights? I have been envisioning the cagematches as MTV- style Celebrity Deathmatches, WoT style, with Claymation skirt smoothing and limbs pulled off to beat their erstwhile owners with. Phaw to anything else, I say!

Girlfight -

Fortuona- Seleucia is experienced at defense of another, not self defense or attack. Also, Fortuona has hated Seleucia for all the eyes drawn to her décolletage.

Unpowered -

Mat- As Bob Dobbs said, "I'd rather be lucky than good any day".

Powered -

Rand- He's never lost yet, and he isn't going to now. Anything else is Shadow propaganda (I hope I hope)
Mikey Bennett
189. EvilMonkey
Just on a side note:

New to the family, my wife would probably call it the League of Dorks. Wanted to know why spanking is so significant to Mistress Leigh. Just curious.

Now on to the picks.


Little Tuon beats Big Boobies, Selucia takes a swing and overbalances allowing the one not overburdened with busom to strike with one well placed knife thrust.


Mat isnt fighting a girl so he can focus all his weapons on the Uncrowned King. His hands are a blur as he tosses knife after knife at Lan, who blocks them all out of the air with a sword that seems alive in his hands. As Mat throws his last knife he makes a mad dash behind it hoping to catch Lan off guard. Lan catches the knife hurling toward him in mid air with one hand and blocks Mat's killing thrust with the sword. Now in close, Lan takes the hilt of Mat's knife that he caught and goes in for the thrust toward Mat's heart. The blade breaks on Mat's medallion, Mat headbutts Lan, frees his spear, uses the butt to make Lan drop the sword, and takes Lan's head with a backswing.


The epic showdown of the Evening, Leaders of team Light and team Shadow face off mano e mano. They start off not using the power, a rematch of the fight on Toman Head. They go back and forth, neither landing a blow. When Rand goes on the offensive the land blooms and grows, when Moridin surges darkness and storms cover the land. It's a stalemate. They break off the battle and start with the weaving. Moridin has all the knowledge of the AOL and Rand with his new integrated personality does too. But Moridin knows the TP intimately while Rand only has instinct to work with. Rand still has chance working for him however, and that is enough to fight off Moridin when he really starts cranking up the TP usage. While they battle Alanna Travels to the match with the Horn of Valere in her hand, retrieved from the storerooms of Tar Valon, tosses it to Mat and tells him to blow. Hawkwing gets called back and, unaffected by all the channelling going on around him, uses the sword that is twin to the one on Rand's hip and splits Moridin in two from behind. Rand wins, but the backlash of Moridin's death rips Rand's connection with Sadin from his body and he is instantly gentled.
The good guy had to win but nobody ever said it'd be painless.

190. Freelancer

Well, the first couple of times that spanking occurs in the WoT saga, it's a male spanking a female. The sense our illustrious hostess takes from this is that of a male treating an otherwise peer who happens to be of the opposite gender as though they were an inferior, to be handled as a weaker individual, and treated like an intractible infant. She sees it as unnecessarily demeaning and misogynistic toward the female. Basically, that burns her backside, and without a paddling.
Tricia Irish
191. Tektonica
Thanks all for a very interesting discussion on the power of words. It is always good to be aware of how your words might effect someone, and to make an effort to be precise. It's called basic human consideration. (I'm beginning to wonder if most parents still teach that?) Most assuredly, those here do! :-)

That said, only you have the power over how you choose to feel. Consider the source of the rude comment before you give them the power to take your dignity.

On to the Cage Match Final!!

Unfortunately, I have a head stuffed full of cotton, can't breathe, and ache all over, so I"m not even going to attempt to be funny or brilliant like so many above. Good stuff, Fellknight@183, et al!

Bosom Smack Down

The Truthsayer says it all: You are a "bigoted, demanding, little empress...there I said it." Tuon goes down with a knife between the ribs when she lowers her eyes. Selucia


Oh this is hard! Lan really should slice Mat to ribbons, but Mat is fast and his awesome quarterstaff skilz are proven.....This could be the match of the night.....back and forth...luck vs extra gift from the AS bond.....I think it's gotta be Lan by a hadori.....oh Mat, I'm so sorry, so are my always will be.....boohoohoo....blubber....sob....., Lan finally stops moving and says, "I've got you beat, Trickster, but Rand needs your Field skilz at the Last Battle. This way, we both can be there for TG. Mat, by concession


In THE Epic Power battle...Rand links with Nynaeve and Avienda using Callandor and severs the black cord of TP form Mori to the DO, wraps him in air and demands his body to replace his own maimed one. Rand Gotta happen. I hope.
192. Denari6
1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona (damn you Rfife for having that Knack song running through my head), skilled fighter and incipient channeler - should she choose to do so.

Wild eyed Selucia battles Fortuona fiercely. Back and forth they go. Fortuona in her desperation accidently begins to channel filling the cage with sparks. Selucia dodges and with an adam collar, (held in her bosum...hehe) and leash she clasps the adam around fortuona's neck. "you are Empress no more damane" a der suldam approaches and smiling at fortuona giggles, I shall name you unfortuona and you will be a good damane....

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

A titanic battle to be sure. Ashanderi vs sword. Warder vs Taveren. Mat mutters to himself as he walks in the cage, "now I have to fight Lan? who is next, the dark one?" Lan steps into the cage with no expression, "You have come a long way, farmboy." Off in the distance behind Lan, the Crane Banner appears. Malkieri Men of various borderlander armor begin to pour out of seemingly thin air. As these soldiers approach the cage, Lan's eyes tighten for an instant and not looking at Mat grimaces, "these men are sworn to die to protect me Cauthon and it appears that I have the upper hand..." "Not so fast warder!" Talmanes exclaims from the crowd. All eyes turn to the Cairhenin,(sp?). "Trumpeter sound deployment." A long note assaults the air and men following the Banner of the Red Hand begin to march into the field opposing the Crane. Mat groans, "I guess the butcher's bill will be paid in full today." Lan agrees, "indeed. if the bill has to be paid let it be done but not here. Lets to Tarawins Gap." Mat's eyes widen slightly but after a moment Mat offers a slight nod of inevitability. "Let's to Tarawins Gap and be done with it" RAFO Memory of light for the ending =(

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

AS Rand and Moridin face off, Moridin offers, "there is still time for you to kneel to the Great Lord, Al'thor. It is inevitable that you will bend to his will." Rand replies with a voice of frost and disdain. Never. I will never join you. I shall never serve the Dark One. You have failed Ishamael. I am the Dragon Reborn, like Lews Therin Telamon before me. A still silence follows until Moridin replies, "so be it...Dragon" Raises his hands and black lighting begins to appear at his finger tips and flings Rand back against the cage. Rand loses the void and lies helpless and Moridin fires again and again seemingly powerful but rather low dose black lightning. Rand exclaims, " me please." Moridin laughs, "I am your father now....die" As Mordin begins the weaves for balefire. A sword blossoms in Moridins chest. He cries out in anguish, "not again omgs." Moridin falls dead. Tam Al'thor with the fury of Manetheran removes his blade from the corpse.....

sorry gotta get back to work and hopes G Lucas is not a WOT fan

Tess Laird
193. thewindrose
Ok - Was busy all weekend, so missed the semi's.
So I am catching up and see this from Forkroot:

I'm a certified diver, and I have encountered all sorts of sharks while diving around the world. They generally ignore divers (although there are places where you might not care to test that.) The people that seem to be at the most risk are surfers. Regretfully, a surfer on a board (when viewed from underneath) can look a lot like an impaired sea lion.

And my very first thought was...

Does this make Freelancer's nickname *sharkbait*???

Back to catching up.

Lannis .
194. Lannis
Once again, I think this forum has proven it's ability to discuss a touchy subject without losing ourselves in knee-jerk reactions. I appreciate the opportunity to hear everyone's opinions. Thanks guys! :)

Aaaand back to the Cage Match!

Girlfight -

1. Selucia v. 3 Fortuona - Fortuona has been lulled by Seanchan match-ups to believe the title will be handed to her. Selucia has other ideas.

Unpowered -

1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. 2. Matrim Cauthon. Strangely, Lan's sword is stuck in its scabbard. Mat shrugs apologetically, raises his ashandarei...

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope. Just because I'm an optimist. So there.

EvilMonkey @ 189: This is why spanking is so significant to our Fearless Leader. ;)

thewindrose @193: re: sharkbait... BAHAhahahaha!

Wow... it seems boobs have a lot to do with your fighting ability. By that (ahem) measure, dammit, I'd be dead for sure! :|
James Jones
195. jamesedjones
193 thewindrose
Does this make Freelancer's nickname *sharkbait*???
Sharkbait! Oooh Ha Ha!
196. Freelancer
I'm deeply hurt.

Oh wait, no I'm not. Being taunted (in a friendly way) by this crowd means two things to me.

1. Respect is often cloaked in a jest
2. Better me than someone who can't take it

To my shame, I still haven't taught my son to surf yet. Now, when I do, I'll start calling him Sharkbait Jr.
Joseph Blaidd
197. SteelBlaidd
Short post due to much life

Re: the power of words.

Knife of Dreams
Chapter 35

An ox responds to the goad and does as the ox-herd wants.

Re: Elayne
No mater how green the 2nd Lt he still out ranks the Sgt.

Re: Mashira Daaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwww

Re: Cage Match
Red Hots! Get you read hot hot dogs!
Popcorn! Peanuts!
Marcus W
198. toryx
Several days later I finally have time to post a true comment. So, even though everyone's already said what there is to be said, I'm going to say what I would have said, had I been around on Friday to say it. So there.

Elayne's Awesomeness:

Now it's no secret that I actually kind of loathe Elayne and wish that she'd just vanish into the background as much as possible. However. This is one of those rare moments when I reacted to her actions and words not with vast amounts of disgust and irritation. Instead, I cheered. Inwardly. She rocked. It was just so satisfying to finally see her put people in their places, even if it meant putting her back on her pedestal. Naturally, by the end of that part of the chapter I was back to being annoyed by her arrogant presumptiousness but I thoroughly enjoyed the coolness while it lasted.

Then, of course, we have Nynaeve and the breaking of her block, finally, thank god, and hallelujah. This is one of those times where I actually think that drawing the damned thing out so much for so long was totally worth it, if only because the manner in which the finally resolution was crafted was so damned satisfyingly well done. Not only was I cheering for Nynaeve (and laughing that it was Moghedian who did it!) but I was applauding Jordan as well, because damn. It was beautifully done. So beautiful that I even felt a tear moisten the corner of my eye.

Damn, where's the kleenex.

But come on. You read this:

And with hope gone, flickering on the edge of consciousness like a guttering candle flame, she did something she had never done before in her life. She surrendered completely.

Saidar flowed into her, filled her.

And how can you not be so elated that you want to burst into tears, manly man and all? I'm just saying.

Okay, I'll admit it. There IS a tiny, teensy, part of me that's irritated that Nynaeve's great moment of awesome epiphany comes from submission. But I can let it go, about 98.9993 % of the time.

The rest of the chapter is pretty great too. I dig the Lan reunion because it made me "awww" and laugh at Nynaeve and feel sympathy for Lan all at once.

And I was surprised and amazed on my first reading to discover myself enjoying Elayne yet a second time, though I still kind of thought that Mat got robbed of some awesomeness as well. But that's okay, because he makes up for it later.

Thanks for allowing me to go on about the post several days late.
James Jones
199. jamesedjones
195 & 196

No taunting involved. Finding Nemo was the first thing that jumped into my head when I read thewindrose's post. :D
James M
200. Otoahhastis
Denari @ 192 – Glad to see I’m not the only one to think Moridin= Darth Vader. :)

As for the fights:

Selucia vs. Tuon/Fortuona: I see Tuon winning this one – Selucia gains the upper hand but as shes about to strike the killing blow she hesitates. “This isn’t right, I am supposed to protect the Empress, may she live forever.” The moments hesitation is all Tuon needs and strikes out, killing Selucia. Weakness is not tolerated.

Mat vs Lan: I can imagine this fight going on for a long time as both are proven fighters. Lan has experience on his side but this is cancelled out by Mat’s own ‘experience’ through his memories. Mat’s luck gives him the edge. Also, spear (or spear-like Ashandarei thingy) beats sword (usually).

Rand vs. Moridin: Rand has already killed him once, that’s got to be playing on his mind even before the battle starts. They are pretty evenly matched in strength and abilty but Moridin has lost the fight in his head before it starts. Rand wins after a short and brutal fight.

At some point i'll maybe post on something other than cage matches but todays discussion is one I think better left alone...

201. MasterAlThor
Darn it, jej beat me to it....

Aw what the hey,

Sharkbait! Oooh! Ha! Ha!

Marcus W
202. toryx
Oh and:

Congratulations, Leigh, on finding an apartment. After living in NYC (and just being there again last weekend) I want to ask where you managed to land but I realize this isn't information you want to share on an open forum.

I miss New York. I really miss my job there. But you'd have to pay me a LOT to go through the process of actually moving back.

Anyway, yay for you, Leigh!

By the way, thanks, R.Fife for answering my question on Saturday about the cage matches. I did see it and actually started writing up my votes but never got around to posting it.

And finally, the cage match:


Fortuona - I think that it still comes down to the fact that Fortuona is the Empress and Selucia her servant. The latter will never raise so much as a finger to harm the former.


Mat - The luck and Ta'veren-ness takes the win. It'd be a convoluted mix of luck, the shift of the wind, and the squirrel that appeared out of nowhere and unbalanced Lan in the end, but Mat would still be triumphant.


Rand - Because he's the hero. And besides, he's also Lews Therin. Moridin's at a big disadvantage there, even with the True Power.
Tess Laird
203. thewindrose
Second observation - Most of us are like RJ - we cannot kill off the good guys. Take the Birgette/ Mat battle. Most decided to have them battle in a way where they both survive. Tai'shar Man-o-Manetheran for your unique solution!

Third Observation - Yes, words can hurt. But they can also bring such joy. Why are we all here, most of us on our umpteenth time rereading WoT? And all the threads where we suggest other books. Amazing!

See Freelancer @196 - he definitely gets it!

Last observation for now: I was laughing so hard at some of the matches that some of my co-workers came over. I quickly changed my screen to a graph, and tried to explain why I am laughing with tears almost coming out of my eyes. This is vey hard to do!

Lannis .
204. Lannis
SteelBlaidd @ 197: TvTropes... tisk tisk. ;)
Jacy Clark
205. Amalisa

I am five months unemployed, living off of dwindling savings. As I wrote those words to you, I realized just how badly I needed to hear them at that moment. So you did me a very great favor, and I thank you for it.

I wish all good things for you, dear.

FellKnight, M-A-T, insectoid, mattyh and others - thank you for your kind words. :)

And, Master al'Thor, as a female, I reserve my God given right to be less than candid about my actual age - although, I've dropped enough clues to provide a decade's worth of wiggle room, at least! :D

Now... y'all keep me laughing with the cage matches, and all will be well, all will be well and all manner of things will be well. If it pleases the Light...
Maiane Bakroeva
206. Isilel
Let me belatedly drop in with some ramblings about the current installment:

Elayne thinks that she doesn’t know why the Aes Sedai assume the Power is that easy to give up.

This seems to be a direct retcon of what we were told in the early books, where AS forcefully and repeatedly insisted that it is impossible for sparkers to ever stop chanelling.
OK they could think perhaps that being rejects those people can't channel enough OP (in frequency and/or volume) to cause the ageless look, but they know very well that giving up channeling completely is impossible. IMHO, this is just a plot-hole.

BTW, I also wonder what happens to women who run away from the WT for love, like that red-haired novice for whom Min saw a farm and a gaggle of kids with the man that she ran away with in the future - I mean, at some point they'd all age and die - and she won't, at least not as quickly. Hm...

Frankly, that's my problem, not just with the whole Kin stuff, but also with all those wilders that the AS leave alone after they gain some sort of control.
All these people with the access to OP, more or less at will, who could use it unethically or in stress and cause trouble - it is incredibly strange that the WT didn't try to keep a better eye on them or to use them in some way. It is equally unbelievable that they don't, in fact, cause significant trouble from time to time.

Re: Elayne taking control of the AS - to me it was always hollow because it was rooted in the strength pecking order. Which I really hate, because it makes no sense and should have destroyed the WT long since.
Yes, she showed some leadership, but not as much as I'd like to see.

And BTW, I thought that Vandene and Adeleas were really cool when they first appeared, but they were sadly diminished by their association with the SGs and being hit by the stupid stick as a result, to provide a foil.

I really saw no mistreatment of Mat either - it is hard to repeatedly almost achieve a goal only to be outdone by somebody at the very last moment - and somebody who isn't shy about rubbing it in. Even if that somebody is an ally and a friend.

"Mashiara" is my favorite chapter in ACOS - call me sappy or whatever. Even though I am also not thrilled with the whole "women should submit to gain control" stuff. Also, among the WOT romances the Nyn - Lan is best, IMHO, which is not saying much of course, but still...

Not that he had demanded anything unreasonable so far, but she kept waiting for him to

LOL, this is Nyn in a nutshell! All about preemptive defense, he-he.

Also, I feel bad for Myrelle. She really went out of her way to save Lan, took on his pain, took great risks and is going to get it from all directions, even from people who should be deeply grateful, like Nyn.
207. MasterAlThor

as a female, I reserve my God given right to be less than candid about my actual age - although, I've dropped enough clues to provide a decade's worth of wiggle room, at least! :D

Ok, then I am going to guess *mumble* yrs old. Hows that?

Matthew Smith
208. blocksmith
Wow...take the weekend off and come into the bunker and find this. I had to spend the last hour with some true introspection.

First off...great news, Leigh! Here's hoping you find a nice little coffee shop near your new place.

Second, loved these chapters. Only thing I found annoying was that I wished they had happened earlier in the novel.

On words...

I have tried to comport myself (at least upon some semblance of maturity) in a way as to avoid arbitrarily insulting others. Yes, I have gone out of my way to...un-learn...certain words and phrases that I believe would be offensive to others. I am not perfect, however, and have been more successful with some, not so much with others. In all cases, with words intended as derogatory, it is a two-way street. I abhorrently recall my not-so-open minded grandmother and her vocal derision of minorities yet she couldn't take anyone pointing out issues with her religion or culture.

My point is, should a person take any derogatory use of a word to heart universally (whether all the time or selectively), then they would be hypocritical to not eliminate every potentially derogatory/insulting word from their vocabulary. While I do not always agree with Sub, he is right on here. Free-speech is free speech and it is this right that not only allows us to question our government, but also to voice our opinions on all subjects; offensive or otherwise. Comedy acts, movies, music, plays, etc., often use derogatory and insulting words to evoke a reaction. Recall that Michael Richards was eviscerated for his inflammatory comments...and rightly so, yet other comedians and music artists use the same words...often to critical/fan acclaim.

In short, there will always be ignorance in our world. What we can do is politely and consistently try to educate and reinforce improvement and understanding. And it starts at home.

On to the Cage Match....(can't believe I missed the Semi-rhages!!!!!)

Rand vs. Moridin

The personification of good vs. evil, dogs vs. cats, republicans vs. democrats, french vs. themselves...

Rand wins.

Lan vs. Mat

This is killing me, but I have to go with Mat. Lan is the embodiment of the ultimate warrior, but, I mean Mat beat two would-be blademasters AT THE SAME TIME, while he was just off his DEATHBED!!!! All of you that think Mat has nothing but luck, think again. Mat wins.

Tuon vs. Selucia

Sorry, in character,this one ended before it began with Selucia promptly slitting her own throat before harming the Empress. However, I'm basing this one on actual character abilities. Selucia is the bodyguard for a reason. She kicks butt and takes names. Selucia wins.
Mikey Bennett
209. EvilMonkey
I dont feel bad for Myrelle at all.I can understand what she was doing, she was handling a difficult situation in a particularly Aes Sedai type of way. Keeping a secret while trying to use her knowledge to prepare someone not in the know. However, you cannot tell me that she didn't push Nana harder than was absolutely necessary out of jealousy (she couldn't find a task more important to him than death), and you cannot tell me she didn't enjoy the screwing, I mean she already has 3 Warders and is married to all three. I think she comes about as close to a nympho as anyone in WOT universe is likely to get. Lan is a pretty big notch in any girl's belt pouch, as indicated by Nisao who cannot believe anyone could steal Lan's heart. Sure Myrelle took a great risk, but she must have felt the reward worth the risk or she would not have taken on the responsibility. Hell if Egwene didn't find out about it I am not even sure Myrelle would have given Lan up after Nana achieved the shawl.

210. MasterAlThor

Recall that Michael Richards was eviscerated for his inflammatory comments...and rightly so, yet other comedians and music artists use the same words...often to critical/fan acclaim.

i wrote a paper in my english 102 class about thhis very thing. I now no longer listen to comedians like Chris Rock or anyone like him. He most certaily has the right to say whatever he wants but I have the right not to listen.

I called this reverse racism. I think that it is most idiodic thing that black people do. Not all of them but most of them. And I to my everlasting regret am just as guilty. I am in the process of enlightening myself. After writing that paper I made the decision not to be a hypocrite anymore. Brother Sub and Brother Free have helped me immensely even though they don't know it. Sister Wetlander and Sister Windrose have also been a large help in this too.

All of you guys have helped in one way or another and you never even knew. Thank you all.

Bill Reamy
211. BillinHI
Wish I had the imagination to come up with something close to what has already been written about the Finals, but I got nuttin.

Girlfight -

After their bye to allow for omen-hunting and to allow all three finals to be decided simultaneously in a single post we have:

1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona (damn you Rfife for having that Knack song running through my head), skilled fighter and incipient channeler - should she choose to do so.

Fortuona finally gets the smackdown she has so long deserved, although Selucia doesn't actually kill her: just smacks her around a bit. Selucia

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

I also would rather be lucky than good ... and Mat is both! Mat

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

Rand Nuff said.
Thomas Keith
212. insectoid
Wind @193: ::chimes in with JEJ and MAT:: Sharkbait! Oooh! Ha! Ha! ;)

Wind @203: I imagine it's difficult to make a graph sound funny! "See, the way this line goes like that, and then like that... it's just hilarious!"

Antoni Ivanov
213. tonka
All these people with the access to OP, more or less at will, who could use it unethically or in stress and cause trouble - it is incredibly strange that the WT didn't try to keep a better eye on them or to use them in some way. It is equally unbelievable that they don't, in fact, cause significant trouble from time to time.

It was in this chapters mentioned that every organized group of channelers was quickly dispersed especially if they are causing trouble. One of the major reason Aes Sedai let the Kin alone was that they were quiet and kept under the radar. So I have no idea what you are talking about with this.
Tina Pierce
214. scissorrunner
FellKnight - bows deeply VERY well done

welcome back Blind- missed ya around here

Free Shark Bait????
he heh ehe hehehhe

Denari6 - even if Lucas is a fan, he’d HAVE to love that!!!

Girlfight -

Selucia v. Fortuona
The contestants enter the cage. The bars are locked in place. There are no wild cheers as both women eye each other, glints of satisfaction in both pair of eyes. A quick move by the truthspeaker begins a wild ballet of flashing hands & feet. A stunned Empress bounces off the north wall of the cage as tiny blue birds twitter in a circle around her head. She vainly tries to rise from the floor but is thumped once more by her former nanny, “and that’s for making me mop up the spilled milk!” “and here’s one for the temper tantrum over your pony”, “for snitching fig cakes at night!!” the thumping goes on and on until there is nothing left to thump save a small damp spot…..

Unpowered -

A'Lan Mandoragan v. Matrim Cauthon.
With eyes blacker than death itself, Lan enters the cage. Mat slips in, almost hoping that the match will go on without him. He simply can’t wait to be done with this chore to go celebrate his new-found freedom. Freedom isn’t free, as our hornsounder soon discovers. Blades whirl in a dance as old as time. the trickster is good, but not quite good enough.

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope
Our hero sheepherder smiles and begins:
“this is the end of our 8 galgillion word journey, we’ve done some strange stuff, sought out new and old civilized & uncivilized cultures, now I go boldly where no man has gone before!!”
as the crowd roars, a thick bar of light leaps from Rand’s hand, and our nemesis dissolves into tiny dancing stars
Antoni Ivanov
215. tonka
Selucia against Tuon. Wanting to impress Mat she makes a covert sign to Selucia. Then they begin to fight one of the most spectacular battle in the tournament in which Selucia loses. Tuon win. But then Egeanin, sorry I mean Leilwin, decides to finally defy her ex-empress.And says that she has seen Tuon gives a signal to Selucia ordering her to fight well but to lose. The referee decides to disqualify Tuon and Selucia is champion.

Rand vs Moridin. As soon as the gong Rand begin beating himself severely, Moridin cries in pain and Rand overcomes his own pain just enough to send a shot of balefire and snip Moridin's thread in the patter. See you the next life, Moridin.

Mat vs Lan. Lan's got the skills. But after the last match, Moridin and the shadow were defeated, and the pattern doesn't need ta'varen anymore. Now Mat without his ta'varenness luck, he loses dramatically to Lan.
Leigh Butler
216. leighdb
Hi all,

As I have been moving all weekend, I've only just now seen what was going on in the comments regarding my use of the word "retarded".

I am low on time, so I will simply say this:

I could question why no one would have said anything if I'd used the words "stupid" or "idiotic" instead, considering that those words can be (and have been) used in the same derogatory context as the word I did use, and I could also point out that never in a million years would I use any of those words to refer to someone who actually is developmentally challenged, but all that is more or less beside the point.

So while subwoofer and others are completely right in that I have the right to say whatever I want, I also have the freedom to alter my words if I am given a reasonable request to do so.

And while there are certain words and phrases that I will relentlessly defend my right to say or use on principle, regardless of whether they offend people or not, this is not one of them.

The post, therefore, has been edited accordingly, and I apologize for any offense given.
Barry T
217. blindillusion
Ah, so I made it just in time to vote for the Final Matches. And they do look like pretty MOA if I do say so myself. Also, as I haven’t really read through 17 or 18 yet, I feel I can vote with no biases towards favorites. *snicker*

1st ~The Femme Fatale Battle of the Protector vs. the Protected.

Selucia has the height advantage, but then, against Tuon…who doesn’t? Both have most likely been trained in the same methods of combat. Chances are Selucia trained Tuon in many of those methods. Each probably knows the weaknesses and strengths of the other. Selucia is in her 40s and probably at peak physical condition. Tuon is 20, and while she has the spryness of youth, she still has a shit load of growing to do. All that said…I see a draw. These two are not going to fight each other, and should a definite winner be required, Selucia would take her own life to save Tuon from having to do so.

2nd ~ The Battle of 7 Kinds of Badass.

I’m going to come right out and say it. Mat wins. He bested two of the World’s best swordsmen after just crawling from a sickbed. Hell, he’d stopped to rest before that match even began. Lan is good…hell, damn good, but he’s been beaten, i.e. Sleete (granted, these were duals, not open combat, but these are men of honor who’d give it their all regardless). Now Gawyn can trounce Sleete…and Gawyn got owned by Mat, what, a year before? One also has to take into account that along with Mat’s own physical abilities with a quarterstaff, he now has the combined battle knowledge of hundreds of battle hardened men and a weapon handed to him pretty much by the Pattern itself (which just so happens to be a quarterstaff with a sword blade at its end). No Luck or Ta’veren Twisties needed. It’d still be an exciting contest to witness, though…and Mat may die of blood loss from the numerous strikes he’s likely to take. Should have gotten that armor….

3rd ~ The True Last Battle.

And here we have it, Ladies and Gentlemen: The true contest to decide the fate of the World. Because that is what this devoted fan sees as the Endgame. Rand doesn’t have to do battle with the Dark One. We all know that both the Creator and the Dark One fight by way of Champions. Well, here they are…. To truly win the War against the Shadow, there’s the man the Dragon needs to completely eradicate from the Pattern FOR ALL TIME! Now, I’m going to call Rand on this one. How it will all happen, I have no idea. But I’m pretty sure Mr Jordan had this Cage Match squared a long time ago.

And now, because I’m cool like that: My Round One, Two & Three Picks. (Extreme WOT to follow.)

Round One:
Powered -
~Rand balefires Mesanaa while raising an eyebrow. Really? No contest.
~Moridin ties Therava into knot, stuffs her into a bag with Galina and feeds them to some Trollocs.
~As much as I’m a fan of Aviendha, I’m not liking her chances against the man who would have stood in Lews Therin’s place had there been no Lews Therin.
~I’m going to have to go with Egwene over Cyndane. Cyndane may be all that plus two bags of chips, but Egwene+Vora’s Sa’angreal = Lanfear Level Power, which means bye Mierin Version -.5.
~Alivia hates having to be a weapon again, but nixes Talaan without batting an eyelash.
~Nynaeve wins. Hands down. She has a dot in the middle of her forehead and a braid in her fist.
~Much as I hate to say it…I’d say a P-Net surprise would be the Spider’s undoing. Cadsuane FTW. Blah.
~A Halo would negate (supposed) Horns, so I’m giving Logain the win over Taim.

Unpowered -
~Lan. He wouldn’t really doing it that much though.
~Mat. He’d shake his head afterward though.
~Birgitte. She’d probably just throw an arrow at her.
~I actually checked into this one, and I call foul. A thrown dagger trumps one in the hand…and Fain ain’t about to let his dagger leave his hand. Thom would have stalked Fain juggling 10 daggers in two interweaving figure 8’s before throwing two right in the rat’s eyes.
~Am I the only one who thinks Loial might be just a little embarrassed to be here? Rhuarc and he walk off to discuss trees after Loial concedes.
~Tam unleashes MOA levels of Sword master MOA-ness thus far unseen in this story. Even Rand stares in shock.
~Galad wins. Guy is a walking Gin Chi knife.
~Perrin vs. Slayer? In the First Round? Well, Perrin cuts Luc’s arm off in the Real. Luc flees to the Dream and turns into Isam. Perrin becomes Young Bull and the wolf’s bane is dispatched.

Girlfight -
~Selucia owns Sevanna…literally. =)
~An assassin’s poisoned dagger in the dark vs. a Soldier’s sword? Match goes to Tylee.
~Tuon would drag Min around the floor before quickly and painlessly killing her. I love Min. She’s one of my favorite characters…but a few months training with some daggers in no way equates a lifetime of dodging assassins and training to survive…well…everything.
~Faile carries knives. Berelain doesn’t. As these two are pretty much the same character, the moral of the story: Don’t Bring Fists to a Knife Fight.

Round Two: reverse, reverse
Girlfight -
~Going to have to go with Selucia. Faile may want to be Madam Badass…but she isn’t. (Still a fan, though.)
~Umm, Tylee is not about to raise an eyebrow at the Empress.... A sword? The woman would have a heart attack before her hand even reached the hilt. Tuon, of course.

Powered -
~Rand balefires Logain while raising an eyebrow. Really? No contest. (Though Rand does feel somewhat bad about it.)
~Moridin takes Cadsuane’s P-Net and burns each ornament before her eyes with the True Power. He then severs her and watches as she dies of shock. (He’s wicked, that Moridin.)
~Again, sadly, Demandred would have been High Lord High Muckety Muck had it not been for Lews Therin, so…. I’ll miss you Nynaeve.
~Egwene severs Alivia and hands her to Rand to keep sound. After all, Min said Alivia had to help Rand die…no one ever said she needed to be able to channel to do so.

Unpowered -
~Well, as both just lost their wives, I’m going to have to go with Lan. I mean, the man already had Eyes of Death. And Perrin is Emo enough with Faile alive and kicking.
~Mat. Does anything really need to be said? He’s already beaten Galad once.
~Birgitte, with an arrow, in an open field. Sorry Tam. You should have brought your bow and arrow instead of your sword.
~Sigh. Should have been Thom and Rhurac. And again…a thrown spear trumps a held dagger.

Round Three: Sans Girlfight
Unpowered -
~Well, a sword can cut through a spear, so Lan wins.
~Mat and Birgitte decide to go out drinking before the match. Birgitte sleeps through the opening bell and loses by default. To cheer her up, Mat takes her out drinking.

Powered -
~Rand shields Egwene while raising an eyebrow. Really? No contest. (What, you didn’t think he’d kill her, did you?)
~Moridin is on another level compared to Demandred…and I called Demandred as the victor there…so, again, sorry Nynaeve.

edit: Now, I'm going to finish reading the post and then the 216 comments before mine. Seems I missed a heated discussion. Guess I'll find out in the Posts.
Roger Powell
218. forkroot
OK so here's what really happens in the cage match finals:

In the girls division, Selucia and Tuon begin to fight. It's an excellent match, and the onlookers enjoy it thoroughly. Suddenly though, the gholam enters the cage and proceeds to tear both of the contestants to pieces. Shocked Aes Sedai in the crowd are unable to stop it as their channeling does not appear to affect it.

Meanwhile, in the finals of the unpowered division, Lan uses every bit of skill available to him and is able to kill Mat. Unfortunately, this takes out the only person who has any idea on how to stop the gholam, who then enters the cage and tears Lan to pieces.

Finally, in the channeler's division, Rand and Moridin have a tremendous battle that ends with Rand plunging Callandor through Moridin's chest. As Rand lifts his hand (and sword) in victory, the gholam steps into the cage.

Rand is helpless as he is unable to hurt the creature, and all of his channeling is to no avail. As the gholam prepares to deal the death blow, Rand suddenly remembers that although the Sad Bracelets were immune to the One Power, he was able to destroy them with the True Power. It makes sense too, because Aginor would have left the creature with some vulnerability. So he reluctantly seizes the TP, only to find out that with Moridin dead, he can no longer access it! And the gholam proceeds to tear Rand to bits.

Thus the gholam is declared the winner of all three divisions (at that point nobody really wanted to object.) The crowd shuffles away nervously and briskly, all except for Valan Luca who begins negotiating with the gholam for promotional rights to a cage match with Shaidar Haran.
Matthew Smith
219. blocksmith

I forgot to say how impressed I was at the way you initially questioned the reaction to Leigh's use of "the word". You stated your opinion but genuinely were open to other information. Very Well Done.


Very funny ending, but I was hoping the negotiation was for the Gholam to be a featured attraction and he would be fed Chavana brothers on a monthly basis.
Tricia Irish
220. Tektonica

Very funny! Well done. Oh, some of these are so good!

Blind: Nice to see you're baaaaaaack! Missed you and your comments!
221. MasterAlThor

Thank you


welcome back I haven't seen you for a minute.


You too, brother. Welcome back. Hoping all is well.

222. FellKnight
@ forkroot 218

*belly laugh*. Nice twist.

@ various

Thank you for the compliments. That was my first effort at fan fiction, if you will, and I enjoyed the writing.

Thomas Keith
223. insectoid
Blind @217, Fork @218: Heh heh heh.

(Please forgive me for not laughing hysterically; I had to witness our eldest cat be put down today, and I'm pretty depressed because of that.)

On a brighter note: I watched The Princess Bride last night. I thought it was well done, and charming, when not hysterical! ;) (And for the record, I am left-handed!)

Rob Munnelly
224. RobMRobM
@223 - now you can read the book, which is even better than the movie ("Inconceivable"). Written by William Goldman of best selling novels (Marathon Man, Magic) and Oscar-winning screenwriter fame (Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid, etc). The set up sections re the kid and grandpa have more layers than in the movie and are really well done.
225. Freelancer

Being completely bereft of true creativity, I have wisely avoided any attempt to produce a fanfic version of our cage-matches. Hamhanded would be the best that could be said of the result. I have chosen to trust the majority to "get it right" regarding the results. It's ok, I don't vote for American Idol either.

That said, I have greatly enjoyed the imaginings of the many who have that spark.


I do most definitely get it. And not just what you meant, but also the "wisdom" from the peak of Mount Wannahockaloogie. Even if I was actually hurt, I'd just keep swimming, just keep swimming...


::pulls the pin and lobs::

Does this mean you'll understand a respectful request to reconsider misusing the Lord's name?
Rob Munnelly
226. RobMRobM
@226/216 - Hell (I mean Heck) no. LOL
Matthew Smith
227. blocksmith

Well done my man, well done.

Subtlety is over-rated.
Roger Powell
228. forkroot
I am so sorry about your cat. Those of us who are cat lovers understand your pain.

My special companion is a 6-yr old ginger-tailed cat named Hoku. Anyone who knows me, knows that this cat and I are inseparable. He purrs me to sleep every night that I am home.

In early January, he had a stroke (a saddle thrombosis) that was apparently due to a weak heart. The telemedicine people have given him 2-4 months to live (he has made it almost 3 months now). With medication, I've been able to keep him going and he's been doing quite well. Still I know that he's "on the clock" and I take every chance I get to love on him as much as I can.

So... I'm doing what I should do anyway - cherishing the time I have with this wonderful, affectionate cat. And it reminds me that every day is a gift ... not just with him, but far more importantly with my wife (#1) and others that I love.
Rob Munnelly
229. RobMRobM
@223. Also sorry about the cat. We have a 1 1/2 year old black persian who is a member of the family and acts like it - only a bit more mannered than our kids. Our cat before that was a grey persian who got aplastic anemia and died quickly at age 3. Took us a long time to get over that one - more than ten years before we took the leap again.

Ron Garrison
230. Man-0-Manetheran
The winnas in a nutshell:
Selucia - someone say “assassin”? - guess that makes her empress now
Mat - no Mo, no Nyn = no Lan
Rand - Hey, the main character is not The Dark One Reborn, now is it?
Tina Pierce
231. scissorrunner
soooo sorry about your cat. I miss the one my daughter took when she got her new house, but that pales in comparison to losing her forever.
Noneo Yourbusiness
232. Longtimefan
@ 216 leighdb

Your wit and style are why people read these columns but it is the quality of your character that has endeared you to your fans.

Hope all is well with your move.
John Massey
233. subwoofer
I feels all warm and fuzzy when the grand poohbah gives me an indirect nod that she reads my not so eloquent ramblings. It is like Christmas. With a dingle ball.

Anybody ever wonder what Thom saw in the alley when the fight broke out? Tuon was busy saving Mat, but Selucia... was it a Jack Burton/Wang moment? Hmmmmmmmm.

@Insectoid- poopy.

Jennifer B
234. JennB
Sorry about your cat. :(
John Massey
235. subwoofer
Oh yeah, before I forget again...

@Leigh- soooooooo, you got new digs now eh?(See? The Canadian in me) Congrats:) When's the housewarming? What can I bring?

Just sayin'.

Thomas Keith
236. insectoid
Fork @228, et al: Thanks so much guys/gals. Sometimes, I think everyone needs a hug to make them feel better about losing a pet, especially one they've had a long time. She (Two Socks) was very special to us, and to my mom most of all, for almost 20 years. It hurts, but we move on.

Leigh @216: Hope your move goes well, with no lost ducks. ;)

Rob Munnelly
237. RobMRobM
Guess I should vote. I started it, I should help finish it.

Girlfight -

After their bye to allow for omen-hunting and to allow all three finals to be decided simultaneously in a single post we have:

1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona (damn you Rfife for having that Knack song running through my head), skilled fighter and incipient channeler - should she choose to do so.

No way in Hell (I mean in Heck, sorry Free) that Fortuona is losing this one. Truthspeaker or not, Selucia is her property and is devoted to Fortuona heart and soul - especially since there do not appear to be any more of Royal family living at this point, making her even that much more irreplaceable. So, depending on the rules to be applied (and the Cagemaster has no spoken definitively as of this point), Selucia either yields or takes a dirt nap.

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

Mat, and not by luck either. This time, Lan is on the wrong side of a tough draw. People with quarterstaff skills at Mat's high level are very difficult match ups for blademasters. As went Jeroam, whose only defeat was to a farmer carrying a staff, so goes Lan.

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

Titanic battle of power wrought swords, as neither wants to BF the other due to possible associated blowback from their crossing the streams connection. Rand pulls a blademaster move and slices the black strings that link Mori to the Dark One. Mori realizes it is too dangerous to the DO to keep Rand alive and BF's him in half with the TP - "I win again Lews Therin...." but then collapses in agony due to the link. Elayne, Avi and Min execute him without mercy.

Min, Avi and Elayne hold hands in a circle over what is left of Rand's body, in agony and sadness over his death, the breaking of the bond and the imminent triumph of the Dark One at TG. Nyneave turns to Mat, fresh from his triumph over Lan, and says "You know what to do now." Mat picks up the Horn of Valere and blows. The clouds form and all the heroes arrive...including Rand. Nyneave walks up to Rand and says "I hope you're ready for this," uses Moggy's weave to rip him out of T'AR, and then turns to the girls and says "Time to bond him again, this time without that chit Alanna." After a few hours of unconsciousness, Rand wakes up and says to his loves "Hey girls, look - no more scars...." The end.

Jacy Clark
238. Amalisa
insectoid... I'm sorry to hear about your cat, Two Socks. I know what you did today was so very hard to do. Bless you...

I lost four cats in a house fire, a little over ten years ago. I swear to you - for months afterwards, I would wake up in the middle of the night with the very real feeling that one of them (the snake stalker, in fact) had jumped up on my bed and curled up in her favorite place at the bend of my knees. It was a comforting feeling. :) I now share my home with two - a still semi-feral tabby boy rescued from under my office building and a tiny, dainty calico with blue eyes. And they, sometimes, seem to be interacting with something that they can see but I can't. So maybe she's still with me... Hopefully, Two Socks will let you know that she's still around. If you believe in that sort of thing. Which, obviously, I do... :)

RobM - you may be onto something there re Rand. I like it. Well, except for Lan dying - don't like that part.
Tricia Irish
239. Tektonica
Good one RobM@237: I'm with you on using T'A'R in the last battle, if that's what you meant.....

Insectoid: So sorry to hear about losing Two Socks. Our animals do become family. Sometimes, like TS, they are with us longer than kids! And can be a lot more devoted.

WOT related: I just reread Ch.40 in tEotW....boy is it chock-a-block with info dump and foreshadowing...I practically underlined the whole thing. One thing in particular that stood out for me in this reading was how nice and normal Gawyn was in general, and in particular, to Rand. It seems like his character really lost something as the books progressed. He became very one dimensional and blindly stupid. I forgot how cool he was in the beginning.

He seemed to really like Rand, engaged him in conversation, joked with him, inquired about the Two Rivers. He even said this, "It's said Two Rivers people are stubborn. Elayne ought to choose her husband from there. It'll take a man with a will like stone to keep from being trampled by her." So she did! (Of course, Gawyn doesn't know that yet and is still convinced, for no good reason, that Rand killed his mother.)

I don't know....he just seems much cooler in the beginning...while Galad, who I've grown to like, seemed like an uptight Git at first. First impressions can be deceiving!
Roger Powell
240. forkroot
And while there are certain words and phrases that I will relentlessly defend my right to say or use on principle, regardless of whether they offend people or not, this is not one of them.

The post, therefore, has been edited accordingly, and I apologize for any offense given.
Gee Leigh, I dunno ... while I understand your desire to "make it right" where it was clear that you did not wish to offend, there's something vaguely disturbing about this medium that I haven't quite come to grips with. I honestly don't know whether it's a good idea to remove the phrase at this point.

In the old days, you would have said something in print and it would have remained. If, upon reflection, you realized that you phrased something hurtfully where you did not wish to give offense then you would issue an apology or clarification.

Now though, with a few key taps and mouse clicks, the offending phrase disappears as if it were never written (except from Google cached pages perhaps.) When another reader comes along, he/she never sees the phrase ... but then is left puzzling over the comments starting on #18.

What's unfortunate, is that the reader may not fully appreciate the stream of thoughtful and well-written comments that followed from all sides. (In fact my hat is off to all participants, noting that while there may have been heartfelt disagreement, the discussion remained polite and topical.)

So while the intent was admirable (removing a potentially offensive term), the whole process makes me feel a little bit like Winston Smith has been working away in the Ministry of Truth.

I'm now going to toss it to others. Stipulating that Leigh, on reflection, regretted the use of the term should she have:

A) Removed the term in the main post and noted the fact in comment #216? (the actual action)

B) Apologized in comment #216 but left the main post unchanged?

C) Removed the term in the main post, but edited in an inline comment to the effect that a unintended offensive term had been removed?

D) Kept the term in the main post, but edited in a comment to the effect that she regrets the use of the term but is retaining it so that the comments make sense?

I will tell you straight out, that I am not sure what I would have done. I think we are still working out the rules of the new media and having to wrap our minds around the malleability of the posted word.
John Massey
241. subwoofer
Gahhhhh! Gbbbeh!

You know!


So anyways, I am not a subtle person. I always ask myself, what would Jack Burton do? Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, but I try to be honest about how I feel about things.

First off I am not a big fan of PC. It is one of the leading factors for why I left the army. Big eye opener for me when I find that the world is not flat and that the place I was going to spend the rest of my career, has fallen and is no longer the last bastion for normalcy- IMHO.

I am also not a big fan of Tyranny of the Minority. I do not like it. Yes, things in this world offend me. Yes, when some things are said or come to fruition, it bugs me or hurts me, but for me, that is the price of free speech. By that right I am allowed to blog as I do and say what is on my mind. What makes me afraid about changing what you say or do- censorship- is that it becomes an extremely slippery slope.

No offense Free- but as Leigh gives in and edits her post to accomodate nor, then you come and ask her to amend future posts. While I do appreciate this as I am a God-fearing person myself, I do question if that is really Leigh being Leigh.

And then what else would be offensive that will be requested to be curtailed? I have witnessed this in my own real life and I cannot stand by idly.

Leigh- do as you feel is right, but for me, even when you do say things that grind on me, I can deal with it as you are being yourself. And that is all I can ask of anyone. I take you as you are, warts and all, as others here accept me for who I am.

Let 'er rip.

Leigh Butler
242. leighdb
Freelancer @225, forkroot @240:

I see I have opened Pandora's Box. Apparently no good deed does go unpunished.

subwoofer @241:

Indeed. I won't be doing that again.
Alice Arneson
243. Wetlandernw
Uh-oh. Now I feel guilty...

First off, let me express my appreciation to Leigh. When someone so graciously withdraws an expression due to potential but unintended offense or pain, as she has just done, I am truly thankful. While I, personally have chosen to go the alligator-skin route, I know there are many who haven't gotten there yet. (I've had a few years to toughen up, but I freely acknowledge there was a time when it would have hurt like blazes.) And I'm pleased to note, in passing, that I was right - Leigh is one of those people who would be disgusted at the very idea of applying the term to an individual.

(FWIW, "idiot" has, for me, a very similar effect, dating from the moment I realized that the term "village idiot" so blithely used as everything from a literary device to a generic insult was, in its original form, probably very frequently applied to people like my son. As of that realization, I lost all my sense of humor in regard to that phrase, and it has vanished from my vocabulary along with several similar terms. I can think of plenty of other adjectives to use when I'm talking about the folks in D.C.)

Now on other questions... forkroot, while I understand and appreciate your point, you ask what Leigh "should" have done. I'll go with her own choice:
... I have the right to say whatever I want, I also have the freedom to alter my words if I am given a reasonable request to do so.
It's her blog, and if she generously chooses to alter it, she is free to do so. Whatever we may think about the permanence of the written word, the fact is that blogs (and web content in general) remain the property of the owner, and if that owner chooses to change it, it's pretty easy to do so. I think it's something you just have to accept in relation to the web. ::shrug::

I'm not all that big on "political correctness" - in most cases it's more "political" than "correct" anyway, so thbbbt. Still, as noted many times, words are powerful tools and it behooves us all to consider carefully what words we use and what impact they may have on our listeners/readers. As I said elsewhere, I prefer my insults to be intentional; as my favorite rant says, I've tried to become more rigorous in my name-calling. :)

And... I'm going to go out on a limb here and disagree with Freelancer. ::gasp!!:: A little, anyway. I'm right there with you in hating to hear the name of my God used vainly, and I certainly don't disagree that it's perfectly legit to ask someone to be more careful. However, I long since concluded that there are certain standards it's just not reasonable to apply generally. If you, or subwoofer, or certain other folks on here used His name in the same way Leigh does, I'd be on your case in half a heartbeat. But... aside from her note of "12 years of Catholic school" I don't recall her ever making a claim to actually being a Christian or believing the theology she was taught there. Since the command is "you shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" one could argue that if He's not your God... Well, let's just say that if He's not your God, you've got a whole lot more to worry about than your choice of expletives.

I can't believe I went there. If it gets too hot, I'll come back and edit... (forkroot)
Alice Arneson
244. Wetlandernw
Gah! I keep meaning to say this, and I keep forgetting. Please let me point out that mention of my son's disability is never intended to be a plea for sympathy or anything like it. He's just a very big part of my life, and I've learned some amazing stuff by getting to be his mother. For all that he's only been part of 20% of my life, I've probably learned more in that time than in all the years that went before. More of value, anyway (as well as a longer list of acronyms than anyone should ever have to know).
Noneo Yourbusiness
245. Longtimefan
I feel like saying something light and fluffy right about now.


I have notices a derth of bunnies in the Wheel of Time. Squirrels and ducklings and pigeons abound for the delight of cute animals. Are there lambs even? I know there were sheep at one time. Where are all the cute big eyed animals nibbling grasses and peeking out over a hedge of flowers?

These are the scenes we need right now to soothe the feathers of small and unintended affronts.

I propose a Cuddle match!

Colts v Calves

lambs v kids

ducklings v chicks

bunnies v squirrels

kittens v puppies

I dare anyone to write about two cute animals out cuteing each other.

Whose eyes can outsize saucers? Whose twitchy noses can out wiggle the others. Whose paws can fold over in just the perfect pose to make anyone say "awww".

In my attempt to get this fuzz ball rolling I will start with bunnies v squirrels.

The bunny hops confidently to the field with a hungry look in its wide dark eye and a nibbling quiver to its lip.

The squirrel scampers down the trunk of a nearby oak to meet its adversary on the ground. Already having compromised its position the squirrel goes on the defensive and stands up holding a dandylion in its clever little paws.

Not to be thwarted by such cheap theatrics the bunny stands with paws held close and soft with a delightful twitch of its nose. A subtle move but powerful.

Reeling the squirrel comes back with a bushy tail swishing catching the sunglow in every fluffing follicle.

The rabbit counters with an adorable ear cleaning. Licking each paw and then pulling it over each flopsy ear with a charming glint in each eye.

Not to be outdone the squirrel does an elaborate and adorable face cleaning and finishes with with a backflip and lands in a curl with the wide fan of the tail wrapped around the body.

The rabbit launches into a series of very cute hops and flips then lands in a curl of its own right next to the squirrel. A perfect figure eight of cuddling.

the judging ladybug, pillbug, and humming bird hold up their leaves. 8-7-8 for the squirrel : 7-7-8 for the rabbit. The squirrel wins by a tail.

The two combatants ignore the judges and take a cute nap under the nodding heads of dandylions and tall grasses.

I am not a heartless robot all the time.

Just most of the time.
246. Denari6
*blinks, stares at the screen and blinks*
Rob Munnelly
247. RobMRobM
LOL. And then the duckling grabs its ashenderari and then begins making figure eight shapes in the direction of the chicks, who themselves are grabbing their angreals and linking into circles ....

I like it.

Leigh - I appreciate the acknowledgement of sensitivity and would have been fine whether you had edited (as you did) or said you would keep it in mind going forward.

Re Free and his suggestion, it is your call. Give thought and decide whether changes are appropriate; maybe yes, maybe no. Do what works for you.

Wet@244 - heartfelt words, and I'm in the same place myself.

Tek@239 - that phrase is the source of my belief that all of the Trakands will partner with people from the Two Rivers - big 2 x 4 cluebat across the forehead. Also, as I've noted on earlier posts, Gawyn's character progression is the biggest tragedy of the series so far. So much potential and so cool in the beginning, and so much aggravation caused thereafter.
Rob Munnelly
248. RobMRobM
For entertainment purposes - alternative ending to @237 above:

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

Titanic battle of power wrought swords, as neither wants to BF the other due to possible associated blowback from their crossing the streams connection. Rand pulls a blademaster move and slices the black strings that link Mori to the Dark One. The saa in front of Moridin's eyes instantly vanish. Moridin realizes it is too dangerous to the DO to keep Rand alive during this turning of the Wheel and stabs him in the heart - "I win again Lews Therin...." but then collapses unconscious on the ground. Elayne, Avi and Min stand in a circle over Rand's lifeless body.

The unconscious form on the ground awakens, shielded by every available channeler in the cage area, and says groggily "What happened and why am I feeling this way?" He looks over at Rand's body, looks at his hands, smiles and says to the three women: "Hello, my loves. I hope you like me as much in my new body. I know that the children I have with Aviendha will look different from the ones I will have with Elayne but if that's ok with you it's ok by me. And, look, no more scars in my side and no more pain. Now, why don't you re-bond me and let's go win TG." The end.
249. Freelancer
Such a large reaction from such a small question, and I'm afraid that my intent has been mildly mis-perceived. Consider again my closing thought @225 while understanding that I am in 100% agreement with both subwoofer@241 and Wetlandernw@243. I also share the view of forkroot@240.

I am not now, nor was I ever, making a call for censorship. I merely asked a question. I knew I was pushing a button when I asked Leigh that question. But the thing is, it's both a fair question in and of itself, and begs forkroot's question of whether a self-induced censorship was either necessary or constructive.

My reaction to her post @216 was a combination of subwoofer's and forkroot's. In my mind, the term used had validity in context and application, and was in no way attempting to draw an indirect reference to a segment of real-life populace for whom the term would have pejorative meaning. In that sense, choosing to self-censor it was bowing to what subwoofer called the tyranny of the minority. It seemed reasonable to me to point out one among a number of things that bring as much or more sense of offense that I felt certain Leigh would never consider self-censoring, especially since she implied exactly that @216 as if preparing to take a stand.

I did not ask her to change anything she had said or might say. The question was if she would understand such a request. Considerable thought went into the wording to make sure it wasn't directly confrontational. It was meant, as so many of the things Leigh writes here, to induce some reflective thought in a larger, "what's good for the goose..." sort of way.

So, as I've said myself more than once, this re-read is Leigh's place, she is free to say and do what she chooses, and we are free to respond as we feel we must. If we disapprove of her commentary we are free to not visit and read. If we choose to read anyway, however, we are then not free to demand that what we read meets exactly with our own expectations. She doesn't work for any of us.

Finally, Leigh, could you please explain how exactly my question punished your good deed?
John Massey
250. subwoofer
@Free- your subtly and tact is noted as always. Well put. I'll buy you a sasparilla soda before we start singing:)

@Longtimefan. I will now be careful not to eat oatmeal while reading your posts.

And you forgot Bela. Cut and cuddly. And what about Hopper and what about...?

Tess Laird
251. thewindrose
RobMRobM 'Cage-Master' Can we have longer to vote for the last match?

Rob Munnelly
252. RobMRobM
Request for extension is granted. Voting will now end at 4 p.m. EST (6 and a 1/2 hours from now). Use the extra time wisely.
Marcus W
253. toryx
insectoid @ 223:

Man, I'm sorry to hear about your cat. I've done that myself (with a 17 year old) and it sucks a lot.

forkroot @ 228:

Glad to hear your cat is doing well despite those complications. I hope he can exceed the estimated life expectancy! Animals are pretty good at doing that, sometimes.

Amalisa @ 238:

Man, that's awful. One of my worst nightmares, right there.

forkroot @ 240:

I think Leigh went the right way with this so I'd go with item A. She meant no harm with the word, and I think she used it in a manner which was appropriate, but given the feelings of her readers and the objections they raised she rationalized with good reason that it was easily exchanged. Since she commented on the revision later on, the full measure of the discussion is still retained for any who come along later.

Wetlandernw @ 243:

Thanks for your post. It's very rare, in my experience, to see someone who is that accepting of others of different faiths (or no faiths). Your willingness to respect other people's position on the issue makes me more sympathetic to your own. It's nice how things balance out that way.

Longtimefan @ 245:

The only time I remember bunnies appearing in WoT is when Perrin kills and eats them. And besides, bunnies are nothing but trouble. What do they need good eyesight for, anyway?


And finally, my are we an agreeable bunch. There's been a lot of sensitive discussions here in this thread and so far everyone's been so kind and considerate that the discussions are quite pleasant. Which is one of the reasons I've been largely keeping out of the PC talk, for fear of putting my foot in my mouth.

At any rate, well done all.
Tricia Irish
254. Tektonica
....I can deal with it as you are being yourself. And that is all I can ask of anyone. I take you as you are, warts and all, as others here accept me for who I am.
Yes indeed, all we can ask.

Wet@242: Well said and I agree,

I'm not all that big on "political correctness" - in most cases it's more "political" than "correct" anyway, so thbbbt.

Longtimefan@245: ROFLOL!! Great way to start the morning.....*tears, coughing*kleenex* ....

Leigh: You are extremely thoughtful and incisive and considerate. Please do not censor yourself in any way. (Not that I think you would even consider it.)
255. MasterAlThor
Ok, what the duece? (Sub, thanks)

I am reading the post and come across all kinds of stuff.

First I mis-spelled Blind's name. Sorry about that.

Second, I see that we have a new kind of cage match going. It appears to be some kind of tag team match here.

Free, Fork vs. Leigh, Wet????

Ok so I am mis-characterizing it but you see what I am saying.

What is going on people?

Enough of that.

Third, Babo and Insect I am sorry for your loss. My wife and I had to give away our cat that we had for 5 yrs, so we can empathize(sp) with your loss. Somewhat. You still get hugs from us.

Last, a cute and cuddly bracket?

I'm with Denari6 on this one.

*blinks, stares at the screen and blinks*

a a-p
256. lostinshadow
* huffing and puffing * have to sit down and rest * breaths shallowly – one could even call it panting * finally caught up on this ACOSW reread – wow lots of comments, but really love the shenanigans (and serious stuff) here almost as much as I love Leigh’s posts.

Speaking of Leigh – happy to hear you’ve found a new place yeay :: confetti and dessert of your choice for you ::

And for the finals……

1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona
As she steps into the cage, Fortuona notices Mat striding away from Selucia. He turns around to grin cheekily at her before sitting next to Birgitte who hands him a flagon of wine. She is distracted by the craw of a raven. Selucia enters the cage, eyes downcast. She throws her weapons to the floor. Fortuona follows suit but says, “the raven has flown, we must fight, but it heads south so it need not be to the death.” Selucia nods and attacks, she quickly has Fortuona in a stranglehold when Mat catches her eye. Selucia pretends to stumble allowing Fortuona to escape from the strangehold and throw her across the cage. Selucia slumps in defeat. Tuon looks over at Mat, “should you win Toy, we shall discuss this.”

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

Lan is waiting as Mat walks toward the cage by taking the path furthest away from Fortuona. As the cage door is locked behind him, the dice start to rattle. He shakes his head, hoping to clear it but Lan has already attacked and Mat barely has the time to avoid his sword. As the fight continues with Mat on the defensive despite the longer reach of his spear, the dice rattle faster and faster so that Mat can barely concentrate. He just manages to knock Lan to one end of the cage when he suddenly falls onto his knees clutching his head. Just as Lan moves in for the killing blow Mat lifts his head and thirteen pairs of dice blow out of his left eye thudding into Lan like bullets. As Mat faints Fortuona runs into the cage, “We will speak of this later Toy” and removing his amulet, puts her hand over his eye.

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said. @237.

When Rand, who after all has three wives to say goodbye to, belatedly enters the cage, he sees that Moridin is lounging on a black leather sofa studying a sha'rah board. When Rand asks him icily to get up, he doesn’t even look at Rand when he says, “all this has happened before, all this will happen again…” Rand lifts his sword, thought to be justice by some, and with a single back-handed slice, cleanly cuts Moridin’ head off. Then drops to his knees clutching his own bleeding throat. As black clouds gather in the distance and the wind starts to howl Fortuona walks back into the cage and this time holds both hands on Rand’s throat to heal him. She then turns to Mat who his clutching his medallion and muttering “mother’s milk in a cup… blood and ashes … she channels!” and says, “get up Toy, there is still a battle to be fought but we will have to speak of this”
257. nor3
I'd just like to point out that I wasn't the one who "made a call for censorship". The only point I've been trying to make (although in retrospect I think I made it rather badly) is that words can hurt, in ways you never intended, so you should choose your words very very very carefully.

Em.. yeah.. I really have more to say on the topic, but, well, I think continuing will just bum me out and annoy you guys, so I'll leave it there (you may all celebrate as you see fit).
Alice Arneson
258. Wetlandernw
Longtimefan - LOL!! Love the CuteMatch. Unfortunately, my creative humor capacity went down the swirly along with the contents of my stomach this morning, so I won't be contributing. Doesn't mean I can read and laugh!

MasterAlThor @255 - Free, Fork vs. Leigh, Wet???? Never thought we'd see that day, eh? :) Not that we're in much disagreement, actually, but it's a hoot to look at it that way!

toryx @ 253 - Well, there's accepting and there's accepting. While I would never say that I consider all faiths to be equally valid (it's logically impossible, and folly to even think it) I'm not a huge fan of trying to legislate morality either. There are certain things that simply make no sense (to me) to expect of people who make no claim to Christianity. For those who put their faith in anything other than Christ's death and resurrection, cleaning up their language is pretty much "lost in the noise" of the real problem. OTOH, that doesn't mean I can't truly appreciate it when someone makes an effort to be considerate of others in their choice of words.

Freelancer - I'm afraid I reacted to the surface and not to the deeper point you were making. My apologies!

Longtimefan - SORRY!! I went all serious again.

::think, think:: Bunnies, squirrels, chipmunks, oh my!
Marcus W
259. toryx
wetlandernw @ 258:

I understand what you mean. And I certainly am sympathetic to those who have issues with blasphemous speech. When I was a Christian, I'd never have taken god's name in vain myself. I was very careful never to do so. At the same time, I never held it against others who did (even though I was surprised at how often more fervent believers than I regularly did just that). I was always of the opinion that the whole "Judge not, lest you be judged," was not only seriously intended but actually pretty good advice.

In a sense, I'll admit that when I do use such language it's in part an expression of my freedom from the Christian upbringing that I eventually rejected. As a result, it's become a natural part of my vocabulary at times of excitement but I do try to limit myself (within reason) when I'm amongst people who would be offended by it.

Unfortunately, there are times when I'm more successful than others.
Alice Arneson
260. Wetlandernw
lostinshadow @256 - Ah, there you are! I was wondering when you were going to make it back over here. Kept seeing you on the Open Thread (wow, does that one give OT a double meaning, or what?) and wondered why you weren't posting over here. Now I know. :) Welcome back!
Alice Arneson
261. Wetlandernw
toryx - Unfortunately, there are times when I'm more successful than others. LOL! Ain't that the truth for us all!I try to keep my foot out of my mouth, too, but... yeah, what you said.

OTOH, I can go all "mama bear" if someone uses what I consider to be inappropriate language in front of my children, no matter what the other person's beliefs are. So I'm not always consistent, but I have no intention of changing that particular inconsistency! It's my job, after all. :)
a a-p
262. lostinshadow
Since we are obviously no longer talking about the chapter... I have to thank Tor for starting a new reread on Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen - another long, convoluted and superbly written fantasy series that is thankfully close to being wrapped up.

hope to see some of you excellent commentators on that thread as well.

:: waves at Wet :: yeah you guys are really verbose, took a while to catch up.

by the way, I know you were looking for something else to read and you are staying away from GRRM - who I will not read because one series that does not look like it's going to end any time soon is more than enough for me - because it's dark so I hesitate to suggest Erikson but would love to have you comment on that as well. I always enjoy your insightful and well crafted comments.

and have you ever tried Janny Wurts? I think she crafts her characters very well. There's actually a three book series she wrote jointly with Feist (Empire Trilogy) (where Pug makes a cameo appearance) which I really enjoyed. She adds character depth and visual imagery that Feist tends to lack.
Tess Laird
263. thewindrose
Girlfight -

After their bye to allow for omen-hunting and to allow all three finals to be decided simultaneously in a single post we have:

1. Selucia, hidden assassin, so'jihn and Truthspeaker extraordinaire v. 3 My Fortuona (damn you Rfife for having that Knack song running through my head), skilled fighter and incipient channeler - should she choose to do so.

A cute little bunny scampers through the setting before Selucia and Fortuona start the fight.
Selucia, shows off the fantastic skills that Thom had witness of after visiting the hell.(Well, we won't know because Thom has not advanced to this stage, and it was off screen in the book.) Selucia for the win. Selucia sees the bunny as a omen, and Valan Luca comes over to offer her a job. BTW, Valan's middle name is Hugh.

Unpowered -

The man, the myth, the legend, the diademed battlelord of the Malkieri himself, 1. A'Lan Mandoragan v. the ta'veren Trickster, the quarterstaff-wielding Blademaster queller, our very own knifethrowing Prince of the Ravens 2. Matrim Cauthon.

Mat and Lan, now facing freedom, have different takes on it. Lan is berserker mad with rage, and Mat is ... feeling relieved. Mat for the win, and as he is finishing Lan off, he sees Aludra in the stands, and with a twinkle in his eyes he goes up and asks her about the things that would make him blush.

Powered -

1. Lord of the Morning v. 2. the Betrayer of Hope, with the fate of the world and all parallel worlds in the balance. Nuff said.

Moridin is feeling pretty good about this match. The saa are like blurs in his eyes as he approaches Rand. I have the Great Lords power thinks Moridin. As he reaches for it, he realizes it isn't there. "Great Lord please show me mercy" Moridin cries. As Rand balefires him with the white purifying liquid, he replies that he has never seen mercy come from that quarter.

Rob Munnelly
264. RobMRobM
I'm still mulling over the underlying meaning of the CuteMatch TM.

So the puppies, who are leashed, represent the Seanchan damane, thereby making the kittens the women channelers of Southern and Southwestern Randland. So the puppies win (unless conceding with minimal fuss constitutes a win in this match, in which case the kittens win).

And the Colts v. Calves is clearly Asha'man v. Aes Sedia - hard to tell who will win such a battle.

The bunnies, who like to hop, presumably are the Shaido Aiel who have travelled in the Fool Boxes to southern Randland inland from the coast and the squirrels are the folks in Amadecia and Alterra who have to hide in trees to avoid getting taken gai'shin.

I need some help on the rest. Appreciate that. Rob
Bonnie Andrews
265. misfortuona
Step into RL for a couple of days and well WOW.

Re the power of words. I will opt to keep my own feelings on the subject to myself, but I will say that reading the discussion has reminded me yet again of the deep character and respect for fellow posters to be found in the bunker.
Well played all!

Ah Longtimefan. While the idea is adorable and fun, I got nothing. Bunnies simply out cute everything. :)

Insectoid and Babo - :( Sorry about Two Sock. Pets are often family and their loss hurts similarily.

Cage Match

I am afraid that ALL of my available creative time has been used up reading this crazy thread so.

Tuon v Selucia. She is Seanchan and must serve the empress.
Mat v Lan. Luck and skill against a man already dead, but who's forgotten to fall down.
Rand v Moridin. I can't tell you how tempted I was to call this diferently, but team light has to win in the end.

Mis-back to RL
266. MasterAlThor
Oh I am coming up with something fun for after the cage matches.

Roger Powell
267. forkroot
MasterAlThor @255 - Free, Fork vs. Leigh, Wet???? Never thought we'd see that day, eh? :) Not that we're in much disagreement, actually, but it's a hoot to look at it that way!

The cage door closes and Wetlandernw and leighdb glance quizzically at each other on one side, while Freelancer and forkroot appear equally befuddled on the other. The crowd hoots and hollers but no action is forthcoming.

Finally, after some discussion, the four contestants agree to adjourn to a local coffeehouse where the match will take the form of a philosophical discussion. No winner is declared because the crowd and the referees all eventually go home whilst the foursome continues to solve the world's problems over lattes late into the evening.
Bill Reamy
268. BillinHI
Leigh @216: I cannot believe you caved on that one. In my own personal opinion, words have only the power the listener grants them. Way too many people these days feel "entitled" to dictate to everyone else on whatever subject they feel like.

While I wholeheartedly agree that neither you nor I would ever use that word in regard to a developmentally challenged (mentally OR physically) person, the context in which you used the word should not have pushed anyone's buttons.

I freely admit that I skimmed or skipped over the various pro and con discussions, as I always do for any of our mini-flames, so perhaps I am not qualified to comment. I will just re-state my opinion: Words cannot harm you unless you allow them to.

PS: I shouldn't use the term mini-flames as everyone has been (as always) very respectful of everyone else's opinions. This is the only online forum I have ever followed with any regularity, so I don't have any real experience with flame wars. As I recall, we did have a couple back in the early days, and both instigators have apparently vanished from the scene.

PPS: Hope you get all your duck(lings) in a row and are able to resume two-a-week posts. While cage matches (with the attending great fanfic) are fun and all, I do have other things I want to do with my day and I sometimes find myself spending way too much time here. And I'm retired! I cannot imagine what the jump in productivity would be like if all those who read and respond while at work, suddenly had no WOT re-read to immerse themselves in ;).

And to answer the next question: No, I most certainly do NOT want the re-read to go away. The insights provided have truly enhanced my enjoyment of a truly great fantasy epic.
Alice Arneson
269. Wetlandernw
lostinshadow - Haven't tried Erikson, but you never know. I do tend to stay away from things I consider "dark" - but my definition can be a bit odd, so who knows? I have read some of Janny Wurts's stuff; I read the Cycle of Fire books many years ago, but unfortunately don't remember them very well. I mostly remember that I really liked the first two; I'm not sure if that just means I don't remember the third very well, or if I found it disappointing. ;) Have read the Empire trio several times. I have to be in the right frame of mind to appreciate them, but when I am, I agree. She develops her characters quite well, if not always in the ways you were hoping. I haven't read anything else of hers yet, but next time I'm in the mood for something new, I just might.

forkroot @267 - ROFLOL!! Well played!! And how probable, too.
Noneo Yourbusiness
270. Longtimefan
@ WetlanderNW

I am glad you like the cute match. I hope you are feeling better soon.

Sometimes I think we would get on like a house on fire. I am never sure who would be the house and who would be the fire. :)

Colts v Calves wherein there will be frolicking and gamboling and whickering and lowing.

Out of the Stable with the label of Abel trots the cinnimon wonder who hopes not to blunder : The Colt!

And out of the barn with eyes like eclipses and knees like ellipsis comes the geurnsey pacthced lass who is unmatched : The Calf.

For a warm up the colt shakes out its brush stiff mane and lowers its head to nibble the long green grass at its hooves. Raising up to look the judges in the eye there is a dangling blade which is twiched up with a swift lip.

Not to be outdone the Calf gives a half skip over to a thicket and displays an adorable tenderness in nibbling up the tips of the leaves. Batting its long lashes at the judges when looking up.

The colt ups the game by breaking into a short trot to a sun dappled break between two alders and frolics about with hooves tucked in a series of bow jumps and kicks with a tail swish and some charming whickering thrown in.

The calf loses no time in gamboling out into a wide sunny pach and lowing sweetly as a patch of small white butterflies swirl up from the meadow flowers under the galumphing hooves.

The judges ponder, they consult, they scribble numbers on the backs of wide maple leaves.

the ladybug gives the colt 8, pillbug gives 8, the humming bird gives 6 with a reduction for changing the feild of play to take advantage of the dappled lighting.

the calf fairs a little worse with a 6-6-8 because the ladybug and pillbug reduce on the disturbance of the butterflies. (insect solidarity after all)

Ignoring the judges the calf and colt trit trot over to a little brook lined with cattails and dragonflies to drink from the bubbling water and occasionally bump noses.

I see your Buffy reference Toryx

And Rob, there is no WOT parellel intended but I understand the WOTsessive desire to make all things Wheel of Time related.
Jacy Clark
272. Amalisa
The colt and the calf...

I'm sorry, but I just had to do it!

(You'll have to cut and paste. Moderators, is there any way possible to get off of the spam sh*t list?? I don't know what I did but I most humbly apologize and, armed with foreknowledge, swear never to do it again!)
Karen Jacobs
273. KJacobs
Insectoid: My condolences to you & Babo. We lost our 14 year old Blue Persian, Greystoke, six years ago, and I still miss him every day. He's my avatar, so I guess that pretty much says it all. As with RMRM, it was several years before we were able to accept the idea of bringing another animal into our home, but now have a wonderful brother & sister to bring us joy. Our children are only of the four-legged kind :) I truly understand your pain.

Forkroot: My thoughts are with you and Hoku, and know you will treasure every hour as a gift.

And Amalisa: My heart breaks for you. I can't even imagine facing something so devastating.
Karen Jacobs
274. KJacobs
Longtimefan @ 245: LOVED the Bunnies - Just what we all needed, I think! :)

RMRM: Ok - it was bad enough that I sprayed tea all over my screen after 247, but 264 pushed me over the edge to a full-out giggle fit! I'll never look at a puppy on a leash the same again!

Forkroot @ 267 - Perfect!
Ron Garrison
275. Man-0-Manetheran
I empathize and laud your efforts ----------- except for squirrels. I hate those little tree rats!

(My kitty doesn't like them either.) Sorry to hear about your kitty, insectoid.
Marcus W
276. toryx
Wetlandernw @ 260:
OTOH, I can go all "mama bear" if someone uses what I consider to be inappropriate language in front of my children, no matter what the other person's beliefs are.

Interestingly enough, I'd be the same way. I'm happily childfree but that's an area my partner and I have always disagreed on. I dislike seeing strong language used in front of children even though I have to admit that every naughty word I ever learned came from other kids at school (starting at roughly six or seven).

I just happen to think that one should be pretty skilled at speaking before one should start lacing one's language with more colorful metaphors.
Marcus W
278. toryx
Wetlandernw @ 277:

Boy, that was fast. Take a prize!

Longtimefan @ 270:

I see you caught that reference too. :)
Matthew Smith
279. blocksmith
Huh...lots of cat people out there in posting land.

Sorry ladies and gentlemen...I guess I'm a dog person. Make that a "medium to large dog" person. Small dogs are too much like cats.

Kittens are cute though. Kind of.
280. Freelancer

**Jr. Guru Error**

The Shaido did not travel by the fool boxes, those were completely inert blocks of wood. They Travelled by Sammael gateways, and though they thought the boxes did it, we the readers knew better.


I approve of and agree with the sentiment. I've zero interest in a battle of words, wits, or anything else with either Leigh or Wetlandernw. First off, I cannot bring myself to harm a lady...

But lattes? Oh no, I wouldn't dream of doing that to coffee. A mocha with extra espresso shot, maybe, but that's as froo-froo as I ever get with a caffeinated beverage.


I, too, have landed in the link dog house without a clue to the offending item.
Ron Garrison
281. Man-0-Manetheran
Le dog house: I think Tor's blog settings are throwing most posts with embedded links into the spam sewer. I was able to post them for awhile when everyone else was getting balefired. Then "they came for me." :-(

P.S. My kitty can beat up your squirrel.
282. MasterAlThor
In other news. Our boy Rand is facing Drizzt. I am so torn, but I voted for Rand. Get over there and back me up.

Go and have fun, oh and by the way watch the videos. They down our boy.

Man I love Drizzt.

But Rand has to win this whole thing.

Barry T
283. blindillusion
Glasses? Yep, step this way Free. I'm selling them like hotcakes. Sure, sure...I have just what you need.

('Twas forkroot who suggested the Coffee Shop Summit is all I'm trying to say. =))

...And wait...they have grenades in the Navy? Really? Why?

Think I’ll just stroll…rather quickly…to the Bunker.
Janet Hopkins
284. JanDSedai
I get my cute quota at Although I can only stand to look at a few pages at a time... ordinarily I don't do cute.

I said that to a friend about 15 years ago, ("I don't do cute") and she said, "No, Janet, I've seen the way you dress your children".
Rob Munnelly
285. RobMRobM
By the way, time is belatedly called on the cagematch finals. Cagemaster will produce results and witty commentary at sometime during the next 24 hours or so. (Been a miserable day for a whole bunch of reasons, mostly but not entirely weather related.)

Free - I know the fool boxes didn't really work but I appreciate the rejoinder. Touche. Of course, the latte reference at 267 came from forkroot and not me. So...back at cha.

Tricia Irish
286. Tektonica

Just way too funny....thanks!

Now WOT we wait with bated breath for The Cagemasters' witty repartee and the results of our very own Cagematch....get thee over to, as MAT suggested, and vote for Rand in the Semi-finals of theirs.

He's up against Drizzt, and I know it's hard to pick, but hey, it's RAND!! If he doesn't win, who will save Time Itself?

Also, Kvothe is behind in his match against the vermin, Jaime Lannister. He needs your vote too. Of course seeing Rand BF Jaime in the final would be to truly witness the triumph of Good over Evil. Ummmmmm....
287. Freelancer
Gah. I still had RobM's thought wandering aimlessly throught the dark recesses when I was writing the response to lattes. No, [u][b]BLIND[/b], it is not my eyesight, but my focus which was failing at that moment.

Grenades? Of course not. My weapons here are purely verbal, and I believe it has been established beyond all doubt within this very thread just how potent they are.


Rand is leading Drizzdt "handily" at this hour, and I expected no less. Drizzdt is a great warrior. He has defeated Ertu, Entreri, a Basilisk, his own weaponsmaster wraith father. He is the character who brought me to fantasy fiction, but his time has been done, while Rand is approaching his greatest victory.

The opposing semi-final has me far more concerned. Jaime Lannister would not easily defeat Kvothe. In the write-up, Kvothe agrees not to use his strongest skill, but that does not leave him as merely a swordsman. He is still a master arcanist, a protege adept at sympathy and sygaldry, for whom many aspects of his very environment become adjunct weapons. And he gets a thrown knife in the chest while distracted? Hmmm, no. And the voting is strongly favoring Lannister as well. It seems everyone wants a final featuring two one-handed blademasters. It would be so proper to see a Jordan v Rothfuss finale.

The only thing more fitting would have been for an entry to be submitted from Mistborn. But whom? Vin, Elend, or Sazed? Maybe even Spook...
Richard Fife
288. R.Fife
@287 Or Vasher from Warbreaker. He was pretty kick-ass, specially when he finally used his sword.
Thomas Keith
289. insectoid
Denari6 @246:
*blinks, stares at the screen and blinks*
Yeah, really! :|

KJacobs @273 and many others: Thank you all very much for your kind words.

Toryx @276: LOL. "Spock, where the hell's that power you promised?" "One damn minute, Admiral."

MAT @282: ::gasp:: Drizzt v. Rand?? Ooh, tough choice... I wonder how Rand would counter a globe of darkness?

Tricia Irish
290. Tektonica

I'd like to see them go blade to blade, if Rand still had his hand.....

Hard choice....but hey, Rand. Has to be. Drizzt would understand! It's for the Light, after all.

Kvothe has to take Jaime down.....please!

But, oh, then Rand would have to off Kvothe.....this is bad.....
Barry T
291. blindillusion
Hmm...all in all...I think I'd rather my eyesight start going than my focus.... =)

I'm wicked, I know.

I enjoyed your rundown of the Suvudu Matches. But while I'd love to see Rand and Kvothe in the Finals...wouldn't a Final Showdown between characters from Jordan and Martin's Worlds be even more proper? After all the discussion of who's World Building/Story is better/more Epic (Jordan, of course), this could put paid to the entire debate... or at least somewhat.

Oh, and I agree, a Mistborn character would have been an excellent addition. I'm thinking Vin. That would have been a match...:

Rand vs Vin - For the Fate of Their Worlds.
Thomas Keith
292. insectoid
Tek @290: Agreed! Would be as good a show as Drizzt v. Artemis Entreri.

Rob Munnelly
293. RobMRobM
Cagematch finals - You wanted em, you got em.


In an overwhelming display of brilliant swordsmanship, channelling and fierce determination to win for the Light, our no. 1 seed, Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn, annihilates no. 2 seed Moridin/Ishy for the second straight time, 20 v. 1 (with the one vote being mine, and having an asterisk; see post 237 supra) and two draws (including Rfife's telling comment - "RAFO").


In a shocking upset, the underdog no. 2 seed Matrim "Prince" Cauthon literally undressed the top seed a'Lan "King" Mandragon right down to his untied hadori, 16 v. 5 and two draws. While a couple went for Mat on the ole ta'veren luck thing, most went based on his skill at the ashenderari-thingie. Of course, as several folk on this site can attest, it's tough to stay on top when you're 40-plus....


In what turned out to be the only match of the day even remotely competitive, no. 1 seed Selucia so'jined the tables on the underdog no. 3 seed Empress, 13 v. 9 and two draws. She then says "To heck with TG," tells Mat she's always loved him since he gave her paper flowers during their time in the tent at Valan Luca's circus and since she saw he was just as good at knives as she was, and took him back to Seanchan to reconquer the continent and gain their proper place on the Crystal Throne - just as RJ promised he would write in one of the outrigger novels, correct? Right.

So there we have them, our champions: Rand, Mat and Selucia. Give then a big Randland cheer!!!!!

Rob (the Cagemaster, in his closing performance in this turn of the Wheel, says Adios amigos....)



lambs lose to kids

ducklings squash the chicks

bunnies get gnawed on by squirrels

kittens are snacks of the puppies


puppies take out the kids in a close one, having to overcome the height disadantage

squirrels annihilate the ducklings in the bloody sequel to the classic Let's Make Way for Ducklings - Terror in the Public Gardens


Puppies easily defeat squirrels (Squirrels!!) FTW. Squirrels converted into permanent use as chew toys and garden mulch.

p.p.s. If you were wondering what happened to the Colts and Calves, they were having a soy milk latte and discussing linguistics at the nearby Farmbucks cowspresso bar.
Tess Laird
294. thewindrose

That was very fun, thanks for setting it up and running with it to the end.

Also - I am so laughing at this:
p.p.s. If you were wondering what happened to the Colts and Calves, they were having a soy milk latte and discussing linguistics and the nearby Farmbucks cowspresso bar.

Sending out hugs to insectoid&Babo. We have a wonderful German Shepard who is nearing the end. I will be so sad when he is gone, it is very hard to lose our animal friends:(

295. MasterAlThor
I'm laughing so hard my wife is threating me.

Thanks Rob


I am hoping that what I am coming up with will be just as entertaining as the cagematches. Probably not, but still a good deversion.
Tess Laird
297. thewindrose
Yes MasterAlThor, do give a hint. Pretty Please...

298. MasterAlThor
A hint.....


wait for it....

No seriously, wait for it.


*Me I'm just a lucky kind*
Tess Laird
299. thewindrose
MasterAlThor, I wasn't asking about the home life;)

ummm - I am going to the bunker.

Barry T
300. blindillusion
Mwahahahahhhhhaha. Hahaha...Haha...heh...*cough*



edit: Hmm. Wait. 300. Mwahahahahhhhhaha!!!
301. MasterAlThor
Ok, I will relent.

I was thinking that since we like to get to know each other so much.

We should pick a song that describes us the best.

It is a lot harder than you think. Give it a try.

Now I am not talking about your favorite song. Unless your fav describes you to a tee.

Also just to make this even more fun, or lame if you manage to see it that way(Shadar Haran will be paying you a visit, if you do), pick a song that you think describes someone else here best.

Points for creativity.

Just to be fair, R.Fife should not be allowed to play, on the account that no one would be able to get his songs out of their head. That and we would all be shooting *insert beverage here* out of our noses.

I said should be, but I will allow it. Just cause I am right now investing in pc monitors.


I haven't thought of any yet but I will stick them in as I come up with them.

Like "Hotel California" for Insectoid. That's just an example not what I would put for him.
Thomas Keith
302. insectoid
CageM @293: Bravo! Same time next year? ;)

MAT @301: LOL!! Well, I never do seem to be able to leave...

EDIT: And I seem to recall you were the one to start that music poll on ACoS#1...

Noneo Yourbusiness
303. Longtimefan
Hmmm,.. I do not listen to much music. Well, none really. However I have heard of this phenomenon. I even know of a few songs from a few bands.

I would say that I am unsure any song could give a good hint to my personality but I am going to go with "Wonderful" by the Circle Jerks.

If you have not heard it, give it a listen.

It is of my teen era and location (mid '80s California).

I do realize that I do not know enough about music to ascribe any songs to the people who post here, regularly or infrequently.

I look forward to reading other peoples references. It sounds fun.
a a-p
304. lostinshadow
For myself, I tend to approach music as more of a sensory perception so I usually link songs with moods and not people. And actually rarely know who I'm listening to in any case.

But for what it's worth many of my close friends from all over the world and who I met at wildly different times in my life agree that Unforgiven by Metallica describes me. All I can say is that the first time I heard that song, it came on the radio while I was doing homework (always have something playing since I'm one of those people who can't concentrate in silence) and I just started crying huge wrenching sobs without even registering the lyrics (which are kind of depressing). On my upbeat moments, I would say "Sway" (though preferably not the pussycat dolls version).

I'm gonna have to go with "whiskey in the jar" for Sub; after all it's got whiskey in the jar and even a ball and chain for a primitive dingleball :)
a a-p
305. lostinshadow
And to contiune my Metallica theme "Turn the Page" for poor Rand (with appropriate lyric adjustments)with the crucial bit for Rand being:

So you walk into this restaurant (read inn),
Uh strung out from the road
And you feel the eyes upon you,
As you're shakin' off the cold
You pretend it doesn't bother you,
But you just want to explode
Yeah, most times you can't hear 'em talk,
Other times you can

All the same old cliché's,
Is it woman, is it man
And you always seem outnumbered,
You don't dare make a stand
Make your stand

Edit: to add legal disclaimer, while I've only listened to Metallica's cover version for the songs quoted, note that as Windrose said at @307 Turn the Page is originally Bob Seger and Wiskey in the Jar is a famous Irish traditional song
Tess Laird
307. thewindrose
Hey lostinshawdow - I do like me some Metallica. However, to be fair - Turn the Page is originally Bob Seger and Wiskey in the Jar is a famous Irish traditional song - see nor3 about anything Irish;)

MasterAlThor, I will have to think about your question:)

308. Divil The Bother
Firstly - looking forward to the midweek posts so those of us not on line over the weekend can get in before all the horses have been flogged to bits...

To bring this back to the events of these Chapters I have to say, while the Nynaeve chapter was good and I was genuinely happy for her double whammies of good fortune the Elayne so called MoA was just annoying to me.

I'll be the first to admit she's not my favourite Character (and we still have the claiming the throne yawn to get through!) but I find the whole scenario unrealistic and the ease with which she settles into her new numero uno role (can you bring blah de blah some tea) totally nauseating.

I don't buy that all the other Aes Sedai suddenly acknowledge her because she looses the rag. She also gets way too much pleasure from lording it over others for this to qualify as a MoA imho.

Anyway them's my thoughts - I tend not to postr unless something really gets me either positively or negatively and unfortunately at this stage in the series it's usually negatively! (I'm not this cantankerous irl...i don't think anyway,,,)
Tricia Irish
309. Tektonica
RobM; Brilliantly written and wonderfully executed! Great fun! Thank you. Next time we need a diversion, we could do our own version of the suvudu matches, with characters from different books?
Maybe we should save that for the Plot that Won't Die coming up.....just sayin......

Yeah Mat!! And puppies Rule!

MAT: As for songs....I can never remember the lyrics to songs...maybe I'll ask my husband, who is a major audio file, his opinion on what song defines that allowed? Maybe I don't want to, ummmm....

Edit: audiophile!! oops.
Marcus W
310. toryx
blindillusion @ 291:

I'd definitely love to see Rand versus a Martin character. But I'm not sure that Jaime is the right choice. On the other hand, since that's all that we've got (and the fact that they're both minus a hand is awful poetic) I'll take it.

In a straight-up fight between the two of them, I think it depends on the world they're fighting in. If they're fighting in Randland, Rand would naturally win because in Jordan's world he can do things that are flat out impossible in Martin's world. Vice versa, however, Jaime would take it in a heartbeat.

Now if we're doing an outright writer/ story/ world matchup, my vote is for GRRM. I realize that this likely makes me seriously unpopular on a forum dedicated to WoT. :)

I'll also further distance myself by saying that I'd vote against any Mistborn character in a Suvudu match. I didn't like any of them. Vasher from Warbreaker was kind of cool though.

MasterAlThor @ 301:

Hmm...songs are tricky. I've got an unusual taste in music that many people would interpret as just plain bad. My mom always used to like to say that I fit Billy Joel's "My Life." Personally, I'd prefer Bon Jovi's "My Life."

I'm pretty sure there's a song that's much more apropo than either of the above but I'll be damned if I can remember it.

I couldn't begin to think of songs for others on here though.
Barry T
311. blindillusion
Liking the diversion MAT:

Must say, though…there is a plethora of songs I’d say describe me. But as I’m on a Rise Against kick at the moment (my disc changer is stuffed with their work) I’ll go with them.

Prayer of the Refugee w/ Segments!! As to why? Well…read the lyrics. Listen to the song. ‘Tis a good Punk anthem and it expresses a sentiment I believe in.

Warm yourself by the fire, son,
And the morning will come soon.
I’ll tell you stories of a better time,
In a place that we once knew.
We are the angry and the desperate,
The hungry, and the cold,
We are the ones who kept quiet,
And always did what we were told.

But we’ve been sweating while you slept so calm,
In the safety of your home.
We’ve been pulling out the nails that hold up
Everything you’ve known.
So open your eyes child,
Let’s be on our way.
Broken windows and ashes
Are guiding the way.

Keep quiet no longer,
We’ll sing through the day,
Of the lives that we’ve lost,
And the lives we’ve reclaimed.

Another good one, if you’re one to believe in taking bits and pieces of a song and putting meaning to them, can be used to describe Leigh’s Teahouse of Cracked Pots:

Swing Life Away

I'll show you mine if you show me yours first
Let's compare scars, I'll tell you whose is worse
Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words

We live on front porches and swing life away,
We get by just fine here on minimum wage

I've got some friends, some that I hardly know
But we've had some times, I wouldn't trade for the world
We chase these days down with talks of the places that we will go

=). Kinda ripped the song apart…but, eh, I won’t tell Rise Against if you don’t.
James Jones
312. jamesedjones
301 Songs about us

Gotta be Blink 182: What's My Age Again.

It was perfect for me when it first came out, and I really haven't grown up any since then. :)
314. Freelancer
Can't be done in a single song, a life is too complex. So, a compilation:

~ Misty
~ Both Sides Now
~ Send in the Clowns
~ Saturday in the Park
~ The Battle Hymn of the Republic
~ Unchained Melody
~ In my Room
~ Laughter in the Rain
~ The Impossible Dream
Matthew Smith
315. blocksmith

It may be cheating, but Free is right.

So here goes...

Amazing Grace
Born in the USA (Bruce)
Streets of Philadelphia (Bruce)
Pride (In the name of love) U2
One (U2)
Indestructible (Disturbed)
Centerfield (John Fogarty)
One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer (George Thorogood)
Rob Munnelly
316. RobMRobM
Once in a Lifetime (Talking Heads)

You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
You may find yourself in another part of the world
You may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
You may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
You may ask yourself: well... how did I get here?

Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground

You may ask yourself
How do I work this?
You may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
You may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house!
You may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife!

Tina Pierce
318. scissorrunner
a song to describe someone else here?
(don't think I'm that brave)

a song to describe me? ~ummmmmm~
not a favorite (not even into county type music) but I think LeAnn Rimes was describing me in "I Believe"
(yup thats me- the eternal optimist)

I believe that for every drop of rain that falls
a flower grows.
I believe that somewhere in the darkest night
a candle glows.
I believe for everyone who goes astray
someone will come to show the was
I believe, Oh I believe.
I believe above the storm
the smallest prayer will still be heard.
I believe that someone in that great somewhere hears every word.
Every time I hear a newborn baby cry
or touch a leaf
or see the sky
Then I know why I believe.
Rob Munnelly
319. RobMRobM
My wife has theme songs - Counting Crows A Long December for sad times and Natalie Merchant's Wonder for our daughter (with its "she'll make her way" line).

I don't have anything quite as catchy but my Talking Heads song works ok.

Roger Powell
320. forkroot
Hmmm ... one song for me eh? Since I am different things to different people, how about a song that could be 50 different songs? Aha! How about Lou and Peter Berryman's gently sarcastic classic:

Your State's Name Here

Sometimes when the grass is blown by the breeze
There's a far away look in the leaves of the trees
A memory returns, heartbreakingly clear
Of a place I call home, (Your state's name here)

No sky could be deeper, no water so clear
As back in the meadows of (Your state's name here)
I'm gonna go back, although I don't know when
There's no other place like (Your state's name again)

Oh (Your state's name here), oh (Again), what a state!
I have not been back since (A reasonable date)
Where the asphalt grows soft in July every year
In the warm summer mornings of (Your state's name here)

My grandpa would come in and turn on the game
And fall asleep drinking (Your local beer's name)
While grandma would sing in the garden for hours
To all of (The names of indigenous flowers)

The songs that she sang were somewhat obscure
She learned from the local townspeople I'm sure
The language they use is not very clear
Like (Place a colloquialism right here)

I'd love to wake up where (The state songbird) sings
Where they manufacture (The names of some things)
Like there on the bumper, a sticker so clear
An I, then a heart, and then (Your state's name here)

Whisper it soft, it's a song to my ear
(::whispered:: Your state's name here, your state's name here)
It's there I was born and it's there I'll grow old
By the rivers of blue and the arches of gold

321. MasterAlThor
I am sorry folks this is Mrs. MAT. I am having my husband commited thanks to you guys cause he can't stop laughing.

When he calms down the doctors say he can come back.

Mrs. Dragon™
Ron Garrison
322. Man-0-Manetheran
Hey fork! My national sports franchise team is better than your national sports franchise team!

RobM2: Yeah David Byrne! His contemporary stuff is just as great. Best concert I've seen in 6 years.
Tricia Irish
323. Tektonica
Suvudu update:

Rand is trouncing Drizzt.
Jaime, the Scum, Lannister is killing Kvothe!

Get out the vote troops....Kvothe needs you....

Unless you want to see Rand Balefire Jaime out of the Pattern! That would be kind of cool justice.
John Massey
324. subwoofer
Song to describe someone else hmmmm?

Oki doki-
And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality
Closer to the heart
Closer to the heart
The blacksmith and the artist
Reflect it in their art
They forge their creativity
Closer to the heart
Closer to the heart

Philosophers and ploughmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentality
Closer to the heart
Closer to the heart
You can be the captain
I will draw the chart
Sailing into destiny
Closer to the heart

-You guess who I am talking about... hint, they're old.

As for me- well then, that's a gimme

Alright boys follow me
Mostly in A
Stay with me now
Listen up this is philosophical

Mud grips - white-tip
Cigar stickin' out of my face
Earnhardt racing sticker on the window
Banged up fender
4x4 - straight pipe roar
Primer and rust all over the door
Scarred up knuckles, Mack belt buckle
White t-shirt - Ain't afraid to work
Got a "what-are-you-looking-at-pretty boy" smirk

Cold beer, hot wings
Wranglers, Skoal ring
Get just what you see
Gun rack, ball cap
Don't take no crap
Ain't a pretty boy-toy
I'll rock you steady
Rough and ready

Work boots - one blue suit
Size too small - won't wear at all
Unless somebody kicks - gets hitched
It don’t fit – and makes me itch
Up with sun - off on the run
Makin' money money - cause I wanna have fun
5 o'clock whistle - off like a missile
Got a hot date, girl named Kate
Think's I'm cool - 'cause I shoot straight
Ain't one thing about her fake
She's long and tall - and she goes great with

Cold beer, hot wings
Wranglers, Skoal ring
Get just what you see
Gun rack, ball cap
Don't take no crap
Ain't a pretty boy-toy
I'll rock you steady
Rough and ready
Rough and ready, Baby

Ahh, Here’s Johnny (Fiddle solo)
Just like that
Ah, here you go Grodo
I ain’t never heard nothin’ like that

Well you are who you are
That's all right with me
But I am who I am
That's all I can be
I like

Cold beer, hot wings
Wranglers, Skoal ring
Get just what you see
Gun rack, ball cap
Don't take no crap
Ain't a pretty boy-toy
I'll rock you steady
Rough and ready
Rough and ready
Rough and ready, Baby and my buddies are all alike
We all say, “Hey, watch this.”
That didn’t turn out too good.
You okay?
(Laughs) What are you looking at?
Yeah that’s a real gun in that gun rack.
No I don’t have a permit for it.
Do you have a permit to ask stupid questions like that?
You can get hurt boy.
Get away from me.

Easy peasy

Edit- I got a #$@@*!! ticket for my gun rack and matching accessories so I had to boot that to my garage. What is this world coming to?

Roger Powell
325. forkroot
Ah Sub - no Rush to judgment from me ;-)

Figures that you'd go with a Canadian band.

Come on down here to Arizona - your gun rack & accessories are welcome, and we like Canadian imports down here, especially one named Steve Nash.

(OTOH, in retrospect, we were kinda happy to see one #99 go. No disrespect intended, but Dave Tippet is a lot better coach. The Great Ones never make good coaches anyway.)
John Massey
326. subwoofer
No worries:)- I hope your team stays next year- But you may want to move your arena somewhere into town. I hear it is like tromping to the Andes just to see a game. Mind you, all my info is via Don Cherry.

Yeah, things have been a bit squirrely up here lately with gun registration and so on... guess that is why I took up bow hunting.

Trace Adkins is as GOB as you get though. No Rush to figure out the older folk I was talking about eh?

And Suvudu- isn't that the competition? Del Rey books... I am still choked the dragon lost... Dragon's don't lose. Especially not to some numb nut whose special attack is "insanely hot". What the deuce was that all about?

Heidi Byrd
327. sweetlilflower
Yes! I finally made it! I've been so insanely busy but I fianlly made it through every word of every comment! My mind is mush and I have sooooo many songs running through it, but I HAVE FINISHED READING ALL THE COMMENTS!

ps: I STILL picture the seven-layer dip whenever I read the words "Bowl of Winds" so THANKS A LOT to whoever posted that.
Barry T
328. blindillusion
See Sub, your influence lives on. =)

edit: Oh...look at that...13.
Lynn McDonald
329. meal6225
Song? Chumbawumba

I get knocked down
But I get up again
Never gonna keep me down.........!
330. Freelancer
Oh great. Sorry meal6225, but this cannot be held back. I have an old friend who has been getting paid good money for decades for intentionally mangling popular lyrics in a comic way, and his "Wumbachumba" rip is an absolute gas. I just can't think about that song without instead hearing:
I get knocked up
but I lay down again...


"Rough and Ready" is the personal favorite of the morning talk jock I listen to here in "sunny" San Diego (raining buckets right now)

Believe it or not, while I certainly acknowledge their talent and artistry, Rush does absolutely nothing for me. But don't think it's an anti-Blight sentiment; I believe Gordon Lightfoot is one of the world's most underrated talents, even to this day.

Guys and gals, it's been great hanging with you all for oh, just over a year now. I'd like to continue to think of a great many of you as friends I've just never had the pleasure to meet face to face.

But life is made up of tipping points, and the one staring me in the face right now is both undeniable and unavoidable, and brings my connection to this little corner of the world to a hard stop.

Freelancer signing off...
331. Cadsuwallop
Wait, you're going? Seriously?

You will be so sorely missed. Peace and health to you on your Journey.

::watches a lone rider head for the mountains::

"Free! Come back, Free!"
John Massey
332. subwoofer
Wow! This is like the last scene in the Searchers. John Wayne brings Natalie Wood back home and then he has nothing to do, no family, etc, then rides off into the sunset...


I hope all is well in your world, and if not, I hope all gets better. Come back and visit, we will be here for you friend:)

John Massey
333. subwoofer
Incidentally- I am now looking for this Wamba chumba thingy... can't believe that one slipped by. Can't believe Weird Al did not get his hands on it...

Marcus W
334. toryx
Yep, it's one of those days.

Once I started spending a large part of my work day trying to think of a song to post that epitomizes me for a bunch of people on a fantasy blog, I realized that I needed to take a hard look at my priorities.

Seriously...when you come to realize that you feel close enough to a group of people that you want to actually admit that, yes, you really feel like Shania Twain said it all when she sang, "Man! I Feel Like a Woman," it's time to step away from the computer, refocus your attention on what's important (like the job that gives you a steady paycheck) and stop goofing off.

So in the spirit of Freelancer's goodbye @ 330 I guess I'm going to bid adieu, good luck, and god bless. May the coming days bring you good fortune and the road rise up to meet you.
Tess Laird
335. thewindrose
Freelancer - This wouldn't be a April 1st type message???

Richard Fife
336. R.Fife
I'll refrain from naming songs for others, but I have always been told Metallica's "I Disappear" describes me rather well. Particularly the refrain:

Do you bury me when I'm gone?
Do you teach me while I'm here?
Just as soon as I belong,
It's time I disappear.

Anyway, I also have been busy myself. Since "Mashiara" was so well received, I decided to make a little something else for all y'all. It is, I feel, the ultimate theme for Min and Rand (as sung by Min). Enjoy.
Tess Laird
337. thewindrose
sub - now that is is hard to believe that you have never heard of a song, I am pretty sure you
a. either own youtube
b. live there(somehow in cyberspace) = :)

John Massey
338. subwoofer
@Wind- now that you mention it, it is April 1. My wife played a little joke on me swapping my shower gel with Nestle Quick... heh. Joke was on me. Ah well, that is all part & parcel of the day. And I was in the shower anyways. Better that then when I am putting on shirt and tie.

And I don't own youtube. I rent it;) So far the fun police have not come along and totally ruined it, but there have been some copyright infringement incidents from WMG that have really become killjoys. If that goes sideways, there is always plan "b". As long as I get my WRC feeds, I am okay.

@Free- I do hope this is in the vain of an April 1 joke.

Edit- @Fife, it is April 1 so I am not playing that game with you. Not gonna click on that link. No sir. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be a positive step, in that direction.

John Massey
339. subwoofer
And I feel like Shania... sometimes...

Incidentally, my daily motivational quote read like this:
"Forgiveness does not change the past, but it does enlarge the future."

Paul Boese

And my Urban word of the day read like this:
The time it takes to react to being rick rolled. I.e. how long it takes you to close your browser window after you've been rick rolled.

Jorge's rick roll reflex is madd quick. Rick didn't even get to the third linn drum hit.

I believe that was a heads up.

Tricia Irish
340. Tektonica
R.Fife@336: Thanks for that! Rickrolled by a muppet...great song for Min and Rand, indeed.

Free and Toryx: Is this a conspiracy April Fool's joke? It better be, or we'll be out to find you both and drag you back! Sic Suffaida on you!
Barry T
341. blindillusion
I agree. Hoping it's all just an April Fool's Day-esk "Got you good, ****ers" kind of thing.

Here's to hoping 'cause I do believe I'd miss hearing from you two.

But if it's not, it's awesome knowing there are WOT fans (not to mention people) like you running around out there.

All the good things wrapped up nice....
342. Longtimelurker
someone gives the nice folks here a flat kiss-off, and you offer up John Wayne AND Clint Eastwood references, how does the way he blew you off get that kind of respect?

ps when did this thing require a captcha? how long since I commented?
Tricia Irish
343. Tektonica
I refuse to believe that Free and Toryx, who have given us so many good words, would blow us all off that quickly.

I sincerely hope this is a joke, and when they reappear, i'll laugh.
Tess Laird
344. thewindrose
Tek - If it is a joke, maybe a spanking first?

toryx - we will send Suffa for you, as is fitting:)

a a-p
345. lostinshadow
While I haven't been commenting at all until recently, I have greatly enjoyed reading everyone's comments and so I add my voice (typing) to the more regular contributors to say that while I hope this is a joke, in case it isn't, good luck to both Free and Toryx in sorting out any trouble that RL may be throwing their way.
Sam Mickel
346. Samadai
Well, I won't attempt at making an April fools joke. After all, who would believe it after my other prank.

I have my Verin pov through the portal stone ready and will post it as soon as I type it up.
347. MasterAlThor
Whoa, waitjustacottonpickinminute!!! Free and Toryx are hitting the long and winding road???


I hope to God that I am falling for a April fools joke. If you are dead serious, then may you always find water and shade my friend. If I am ever out your way, I will find you and thank you in person for all the kind words and words of wisdom you offered.


I also hope that you are joking. I have enjoyed your post and words as much as anyones. May you also find water and shade.

Respect, longtimelurker,is what they have earned and the reason why they get the words of kindness and well wishing that they have recieved.

All and all I do hope this is a joke. I for one will be crushed if they are gone for good.

Bonnie Andrews
349. misfortuona
Hmmm, re-read without Freelancer and Toryx?
Yep would miss them if they left, but I don't believe it for a second. They have the bug, and while they may be tougher and more resilient than I, they’ve been addicted longer. They will be back, this I predict.

Mis-fortuona teller.
James Jones
350. jamesedjones
349 misfortuna

I think the bug they caught is the fool bug. Which is one of the reasons I decided not to grow up. :)
Bonnie Andrews
351. misfortuona
Yep :D

Hey on a serious note, have any of you been checking out Brandon's Facebook page, or twitter. He's cut enough pages from WoK to do another fare sized novel.
He also says that because WoK is taking longer than he thought, he's planning on splitting ToM into two volumes. One out Jan 2011 the other in Nov 2011.
Now that really bites.

Sam Mickel
352. Samadai

that is complete BS. I can't believe they are doing it to us again.
Karen Jacobs
353. KJacobs
Cruel joke, Mis - Just plain cruel! :)

MAT - my sentiments exactly - Thankyou!
Karen Jacobs
354. KJacobs
Sub@ 338: I think your wife is my new Hero! Sounds like she should be on here with the rest of us!
355. denari6
very cruel mis-gonna get spanked

Rob Munnelly
356. RobMRobM
Mis-mean. How dare you mix April fools with a kernel of truth - that BS is editing WoK and cutting text, but he is on schedule and no word re ToM delays. But clever too. Bravo.

Roger Powell
357. forkroot
My favorite April Fools memory....

Some years ago on April 1st, I turned to my office mate where I worked and said "Hey Larry, there's a $50 bill taped under your chair and you can have it."

He looked at me and said "Very funny Mr April Fooler!" So I went over, reached under his chair, and removed the $50 much to his surprise (and regret).

I waited for an hour or so (enough so that I was sure the story would have made the rounds), then went into the office next door. "Hey John!", I said, "There's a $50 bill taped under your chair". John gave me a sly grin, and got up, turned his chair over ....

and removed the "April Fools!" note from under his chair.

359. alreadymadwithreread
Can't imagine a reread thread without Freelancer and Toryx.
Karen Jacobs
360. KJacobs
@359 Let's hope we don't really have to!
Ron Garrison
362. Man-0-Manetheran
It's April already, so I hope it's not too late to nominate a song for the blog. Queen Latifa and Catherine Zeta-Jones pose a question or two about Class:

(The spam filter is really starting to P*** me off!)
Karen Jacobs
363. KJacobs
Hey Mis! Your April Fool's Joke made it to the Hot Bookmarks. Too funny!
Barry T
365. blindillusion
Ah. But my YBR reference made the Hot Bookmarks as well. Phsst. =)
Karen Jacobs
366. KJacobs
@365: Right you are! Does that make Rand 'Dorothy'? Or maybe Moiraine is Glenda?
Bonnie Andrews
367. misfortuona
Just can't see Rand in the dress. He's way too tall.
How about Nyneave as Dorothy. She's got the braid.

Barry T
368. blindillusion Mat had the ruby dagger for a time...wouldn't he be Dorothy...but in a new twist to the old story...the Wicked Witch (that'd be Fain) ended up with it after all....

And HA! I'll bet now you're picturing a house falling on Fain. Or perhaps someone throwing water on him...?

Roger Powell
369. forkroot
So David Paich and Jeff Porcaro are killed in a car accident. They wake up in Heaven and find themselves on stage with Dave Hope, Phil Ehart, and Kerry Livgren. The crowd is cheering, and apparently they are getting set to play another number.

Paich looks at Porcaro and asks "Jeff, what band are we in?". Livgren hears the question and says "You are in 'Kansas'".

Paich says to Porcaro: "Kansas!? I've a feeling we're not in Toto anymore"
Sam Mickel
370. Samadai
aahh that was terrible, funny but terrible
Rob Munnelly
371. RobMRobM
@364. I vote you've earned a collar and can join Suffa in the bunker. From now on, you will answer only to Missy. Missy will be a good damane.
Richard Fife
372. R.Fife
*approves of Mis-prankster, sets her free and on her way for a special thanks from the giant flaming toiletbowl.*
Karen Jacobs
373. KJacobs
@372: But didn't you collapse in agony when you touched the collar? :)
Sam Mickel
374. Samadai

I think that is a little harsh on Misfortuona. It was a wonderful joke. It was almost like I thought it up myself.
Bonnie Andrews
375. misfortuona
Whew, thanks Fife. I was begining to get worried, what with earning spankings and a collar, that we might lose our G rating here.

@373 ROFL

Mis-free again.
Free! sniffs. Oh Free come back to us.

Edit darn h, where did you come from
Sam Mickel
376. Samadai

Well done son of the DarkOne.
Bonnie Andrews
377. misfortuona
Oh yeah sorry Sam, I forgot to give you credit here. OOPS

Richard Fife
378. R.Fife
@372 Only a little pain. If Haligar could do it, so can I, eh? I'm not some wimp, like Rand.
Sam Mickel
379. Samadai
*winking at Mis*
Mikey Bennett
380. EvilMonkey
Excellent April Fools Mis. My heart literally jumped in my throat for like 10 seconds and I was about to flippin throw something. Then I read the rest of the posts and calmed down. You truly have the sense of humor common to the Aiel, the closer the jest gets to drawing blood the better.

Thomas Keith
381. insectoid
Free & Toryx: I hope this is a joke... you couldn't leave us before TG!

Sam @346: Oh boy, a Verin POV...

Mis-chief @351: Oh you...! That's very evil of you ;)

Fork @357: BAHAHAhahaha!!

383. nor3
Free and toryx; :(

mis : thankfully I read the newest posts from the bottom up, so I knew to take your post with a pinch of salt :S because that would be AWFUL if it was true...

and re : songs : Currently, Decision Time by The Coronas. It's definately worth a listen. It describes the things I'm going through at the moment almost disturbingly well (most of which i have kinda spewed at you unsuspecting bystanders over the course of this thread - sorry 'bout that....). Heres the youtube link : Sorry, but you'll have to copy and paste since I doubt I'll bypass the filter :)
Tess Laird
384. thewindrose
toryx said:

Yep, it's one of those days.

Once I started spending a large part of my work day trying to think of a song to post that epitomizes me for a bunch of people on a fantasy blog, I realized that I needed to take a hard look at my priorities.

I am still chuckling over this one:)
(And I have seen him commenting on other threads here, so I think he will be back:)

386. Longtimelurker

i noticed that also, toryx has been commenting several times today and it's impossible to hide from the "most recent comments" panel

i would have fallen for Misfortuona's gag and been real upset, but lurking on facebook early this morning i saw BS's posts about cutting down way of kings, and that towers of midnight was on time for release. In fact, there's a new video interview about the different books, and a plug for jordancon

i can't embed links? here it is, just remove the space in the middle and add the http on the front


for anyone who wants to join brandon's facebook fan page, his first one is full on friends, he had to make a second one which is cool because it seems to be a mirror of the other one


ps. this is too much work, i hope they fix the spam filter soon

pps. how weird, the captcha words they want me to enter this time are tomcats sail. it's like they know...
Marcus W
387. toryx
Hey, it's a whole new day!

Alright, I was just fooling with you all. I can be mean like that. I'm a little disturbed, however, that no one took my comment about Shania Twain's song as the most obvious clue that I was posting in spirit of the day. What're you all trying to say? :)

Oh, and though I was by no means fishing for any, thanks for the kind words re: hopes I wasn't really leaving. It's nice to be appreciated.

Now Freelancer, you better have been messing with everyone too. My day's not complete without a little outrage every now and then.
John Massey
389. subwoofer
Yay... but I still like to feel a woman sometimes;)

Good Friday to everyone.

Kurt Lorey
390. Shimrod
@387 toryx,

What do you think we were trying to say?

How do you feel about that?

Barry T
391. blindillusion
WB Toryx. Was touch and go for a moment there.

And a Good Friday to you as well Sub.

Just a little bit longer, eh?

Good on ya for sticking with it. I know a couple'a people who didn't make it. =|

(Wonder what that means...if you cannot make it the entire time without indulging in your sacrifice...?)

…And..I cannot recall…is today going to be a Post Day?
392. MasterAlThor

Funny, I had to read the whole joke. I only know those bands, not the members.


Alright you baaaaaddddddd girl. You deserved the collar but I am glad you are free.

Since I started the music association thingy, I guess I have to post about it.

I need more than one song,

Everything by Lifehouse
Pardon Me by Incubus
Amazing by Kanye West
Like A Stone by Audioslave
Black by Pearl Jam

This covers the range of my feelings. There are more I jut can't think of them right now.

Now for the fun part. I am going to attempt to make fun of my friends here wth the songs I choose for them.

Mis: Little Mis-Can't Be Wrong by The Spin Doctors
Just like the play on her name

thewindrose: Dirty Mind by Prince
She was the one who said that the Far Madding team sucks

Subwoofer: Whiskey, Whiskey by Kris Kristofferson
Ii is what he has to wait two more days for

blind: I Can See Clearly Now by Johnny Nash
Joke, if you don't get it....

Wetlandernw: Somewhere Over The Rainbow
It's always raining over there in Seattle, Wa.

Samadai: It's Tricky by RUN DMC
He tricked us, and I won't fall for it anymore.

R.Fife: Won't Get Fooled Again by The Who
If I have to explain this, you haven't been around long enough

And......I got nuttin.

Kowalski, Options.

Oh that's right he left us. Boo Whoo :(((

Bonnie Andrews
393. misfortuona
Okay just for the record, the BS thing was Samadai's idea, but we knew that nobody would believe him even for a moment so I wrote the post. I've been feeling bad ever since and really needed to get that off my chest. The guilt was killing me, especially after MAT posted that wonderful song in my honor.

Though it was a lot of fun. :D

Mis-the plotting continues on Gabbly
394. MasterAlThor
Ok I got more,

Freelancer: Keep On Rockin In The Free World by Neil Young.
I know you guys get this.

Tinaa: I have to sing a couple of verses cause I don't know the name of the song. So here it goes.

"Oh show me the way to go home,
I'm tired and I wanna go to bed
Oh I had a little drink about an hour ago,
and I think it went to my head."

Vodka is her whiskey.

More later

Bonnie Andrews
395. misfortuona
That's perfect for Tinaa, though I think it's a good thing she lives so far away from you.

Tricia Irish
396. Tektonica
Welcome back Toryx! Had my fingers crossed that you were pulling our collective, if Free is too, we'll be back in business.....

Happy Good Friday to you too, Sub...and all.... and congratulations on keeping your commitment!

MAT: You're songs are right on the spot! LOL.

Are we getting a Post today? *twitching*
Barry T
397. blindillusion
Ah. And Mis -393- don't forget the plan we discussed yesterday. *wink wink*. =)

And MAT. I like that song. =) And plays on words are awesome.

Oh...and were you looking for "Show Me the Way to Go Home"
Rob Munnelly
398. RobMRobM
You mean to reference the alternative version as well:

Show me the way to my habitual abode
I'm fatigued and I want to retire
Oh I had some Southern Comfort sixty minutes ago
And it went right to my cerebellum....etc.

But I don't get a song of my own? Crushed, I am.
a a-p
399. lostinshadow
MAT @392 & 394

well done

definitely been lurking long enough to have enjoyed that :)

Karen Jacobs
402. KJacobs
MAT @ 392 & 394 - Awesome song choices!

Mis @ 393 - Does this mean you are Samadi's Gabbly version of Shaidar Haran? ;)
Barry T
403. blindillusion

And Leigh...since most of your posts are like the above, i.e. Normal Size, it would seem Sub is requesting a larger than normal post....

And it is Good Friday and all that.... =)
Marcus W
404. toryx
MasterAlThor @ 388, subwoofer @ 399, shimrod @ 390, blindillusion @391, Tektonica @ 396:

Thanks for the welcome backs!


After thinking about it a little too much, I actually feel a little dirty.

MAT @ 394:

"Show Me the Way" not only sticks in my mind for hours, it also reminds me of Jaws, which is where I initially learned the song.

Subwoofer @ 400:

Holy mackerel, you totally screwed up my page view. How can you post that image without getting blocked when so many others are always getting in trouble for much more innocent links?

Re: New Post...

Last I saw from Leigh, it's uncertain (depending on how her move goes/ went) but I'm hoping. A new post would certainly be appreciated!
John Massey
405. subwoofer
I am covered in awesomesauce.

Leigh Butler
406. leighdb
What, you're not enjoying the suspense?

(There will be a post, guys. Chillax.)
Tess Laird
407. thewindrose
A good morning to everyone, and a Good Friday as well.

Very funny MasterAlThor;)

I love Audio Slave!

And, one song I remember from my college days was -Stupid Girl by Garbage. Wrapped Around Your Finger and De Do Do Do - The Police

Tess Laird
408. thewindrose
No sub, I thought you were covered in Nestle Quick:)

Rob Munnelly
409. RobMRobM
OK. Here's one for MAT and all the other old fogeys with shaky and perhaps substance influenced memories (including me). Purple Toupee by They Might be Giants:

I remember the year I went to camp
I heard about some lady named Selma and some blacks
Somebody put their fingers in the President's ears
It wasn't too much later they came out with Johnson's wax
I remember the book depository where they crowned the king of Cuba
Now that's all I can think of, but I'm sure there's something else
Way down inside me I can feel it coming back

Purple toupee will show the way when summer brings you down
(Purple toupee when summer brings you down)
Purple toupee and gold lame will turn your brain around
(Purple toupee and gold lame)

Chinese people were fighting in the park
We tried to help them fight, no one appreciated that
Martin X was mad when they outlawed bell bottoms
Ten years later they were sharing the same cell
I shouted out, "Free the Expo '67"
Till they stepped on my hair, and they told me I was fat
Now I'm very big, I'm a big important man
And the only thing that's different is underneath my hat

Purple toupee will show the way when summer brings you down
(Purple toupee when summer brings you down)
Purple toupee and gold lame will turn your brain around
(Purple toupee and gold lame)

Purple toupee is here to stay after the hair has gone away
The purple brigade is marching from the grave

We're on some kind of mission
We have an obligation
We have to wear toupees
Vincent Lane
410. Aegnor
Of course I'm coming into the discussion way late as usual, but I had to say something about the whole "retarded" controversy.

There are few words that exemplify the problem with PC more than "retard". The word comes from the Latin retardus. Which means...slow. There is no built in negative meaning to the word. In an effort to be PC, many people replace the word retarded, with slow. Essentially replacing the the Latin word for slow, with the English word for slow.

I'm just waiting for the PC police to throw a fit about the extensive use of the abbreviation "rit." in music, which is short for ritardando, or ritard, which is Italian for slow.

The fact is that when the subject matter, for which a word is used to describe, is seen as a negative, the word itself takes on that negativity, not the other way around. In an effort to be more PC, the use of the phrase "learning disabled" became in vogue to describe people with mental retardation (oops, mental slowing...using Latin words is just offensive). Learning disabled, or LD, quickly became a new playground insult.

It is a never ending, and pointless, battle. As the word to describe the perceived negative condition changes, that perceived negativity follows it and contaminates any word that is chosen to describe it.

Nothing exemplifies the futility of such PC machinations more than the battle against the word retard.
Alice Arneson
411. Wetlandernw
It is a never ending, and pointless, battle. As the word to describe the perceived negative condition changes, that perceived negativity follows it and contaminates any word that is chosen to describe it.

This is so true, and one of the reasons that I don't make a big thing about asking people to stop using any particular word. However, since you mentioned it, I have to toss in something I was thinking about (while doing the dishes, of course!) last night. Leigh mentioned that the words "stupid" or "idiotic" could have been used to replace "retarded". I finally realized - that's where my problem is. "Slow" is a synonym; "stupid" is not. Except... that's what it has come to mean in general usage, and I think that's what bothers me most. My little guy may be (indeed is) slow in his development in many areas, but stupid he is not! Crafty, clever, manipulative, sneaky... too smart for his own good sometimes. Definitely not stupid. :)

Not that anyone is reading this, since the new post went up, but oh well. I got it said... and I'm definitely not bringing it up on the next post!!!
Roger Powell
412. forkroot
Hey, I read it. Give your little guy an extra hug and kiss tonight on behalf of all of us. Treasure him, of course!
James Jones
413. jamesedjones
No worries, Wetlandernw. We'll still be reading your posts, no matter where they pop up. :)
Sam Mickel
414. Samadai
of course we will, you are the best.
415. Longtimelurker

I read it too, as I always read your comments, and virtually always agree with them.


it was supposed to last longer than one hour, and I thought you wrecked it, but it turns out it has held so far...
416. Tinaa


Show me the way to go home
I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago
And it went right to my head
Where ever I may roam
On land or sea or foam
You will always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home

You would be surprised to know how often I do actually sing this to myself whilst underwater...
Tess Laird
417. thewindrose
I freely *wink* at you;)

Tina Pierce
418. scissorrunner
hey Wet - kids are awesome, especially the clever, manipulative, sneaky... too smart for his own good sometimes. Definitely not stupid.
kind of kids!
Alice Arneson
419. Wetlandernw
Thank you all!!! You folks are the best. I wish I could tell you just how much this group means to me, but it would end up sounding mushy and over-the-top. So I can only thank you again for your support and for letting me enjoy the crazy with you all. You've hugely increased my enjoyment of WoT and given me so many different perspectives on RL things as well, and I love knowing I've got friends scattered all over the world.

Here's to you!! ::raises glass::

(Okay, I have to admit that at the moment it's milk in the glass; just finishing fish & chips and getting ready for a Good Friday service, so... there you have it. I'll raise another glass to you, with something more appropriate in it, later tonight!)
Tricia Irish
420. Tektonica
All children are treasures. And not one of them is "perfect", whatever that means. And neither are we. They teach us.
Isn't it glorious!

And you are the best. Always the most insightful and considerate of thoughts.
Happy Easter! Hugs and kisses to all your children!
423. Tooms
Wow, this re-read is on pace to finish after the whole series is done.
424. JimF
Leigh: This may be the Crowning Moment of Incredible Fan Appreciation regarding your recap of the stories. TWoT doesn't deliver that many sequential show-stopper chapters (this may be the absolute zenith) and your recounting and explications make them that much more, err, stoppery. Luv ya.
425. yasiru89
I found Nynaeve and Elayne to be at their most annoying in aCoS, but I'll admit I was rooting for them at this point. Not that they stop being annoying, unfortunately.
426. VandalThor
The flames of Rands anger must burn hot enough to properly forge the sword of his soul to strike at the Dark One spitting in sightblinder's eye with his last breath etc.
Kin you dig it.

That's why you don't use balefire Moghedien. It weakens the pattern aaaaand Nynaeve's block. Bad call you should have stuck to the game plan. That's why you have a mind-trap and Demandred's sippin cognac. Lopar lookin spider woman.

Lan and Nynaeve reunion... favorite WOT moment to date.

Kin I get a Hell yeah or something aKin to a bouya

Leigh...I love you. (In a non-creepy way like saying I love your work you make me smile.)
one eyed smiley face.)

It gets lonely out here in 2011 yasiru89 @425...not helping
427. emmyloo03
I sob like a BABY each time I read this chapter

There is something so touching about Nynaeve overcoming her block; it seems to give me hope about overcoming my own obstacles in life (course I don't want to have to nearly be balefired and drowned to do it, but you gotta do whatcha gotta do I guess). And then I sit and giggle through my tears over her whole conversation with Lan. :D

Also, Elayne = Yay! About time you stood up for yourself ya daffy biotch! Now go Do Work, Son! (yes, I realize she's a girl, but in that sentence it would sound more like guurrl in my head and I Do Not Want)

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