GGG#011: Star Wars! Ewoks! The Almighty Sarlacc! (Guest: Alexandre Philippe)

Mon
Mar 15 2010 5:00am

GGG#011: Star Wars! Ewoks! The Almighty Sarlacc! (Guest: Alexandre Philippe)

John Joseph Adams and David Barr Kirtley

The People vs. George Lucas director Alexandre Philippe joins us to talk about the film and the love/hate relationship between Star Wars fans and its creator. Dave and John discuss their opinions of all six films and the expanded universe.

Introduction

0:00 Introduction by Tor.com

0:37 Dave and John introduce the show

Interview: Alexandre Philippe

Alexandre Philippe 02:46 Interview begins

02:58 Alexandre ranks the films for us

04:19 The origin of The People vs. George Lucas, and fan contributions to the cause

07:15 Some of the recognizable names in the film and Alexandre’s experience collecting the opinions of professional sci fi writers

09:22 Star Wars fandom around the world

10:36 The angriest and strangest interviews

12:03 Handling death threats from Star Wars fans

13:43 Kids and French scholars: people who prefer the prequels over the originals

15:37 The relationship between fans and their merchandise

20:07 What went wrong in the prequels?

22:10 Will Lucas ever do anything other than Star Wars?

26:19 The Star Wars expanded universe

27:00 Alexandre weighs in on rebooting Star Wars

28:17 Where can we see the documentary?

29:29 Past and upcoming projects from Alexandre Philippe, including Earthlings, a documentary about the Klingon language phenomenon

30:39 End of interview

~~Dave and John crush Podtern’s innocent love for Star Wars under the jackboot of heartless criticism, demonstrating their utter soullessness and total lack of perspective.~~ Dave and John have a spirited and balanced discussion regarding the films. [Note: Podtern has been placed on administrative leave.]

The People vs. George Lucas 30:57 Dave and John talk about their early Star Wars experiences

34:49 The infallibility of Star Wars when we’re kids

42:05 John and Dave rank the films

46:10 Dave posits that Phantom Menace acts as a vaccine

47:32 The stuff that works, and why

50:37 Regarding Ewoks

54:02 “Wait, they have a werewolf, too?” Watching the original films with someone who hasn’t seen them before

59:41 About David Brin’s Star Wars On Trial, and Dave and John answer some of the charges

01:02:20 The guys take apart the science in the films

01:04:21 Jeanne Cavelos brings a damning charge that may apply to science fiction movies in general

01:05:35 Does Star Wars portray any admirable ethical beliefs?

01:08:57 Plot holes and logical gaps

01:11:32 John weighs in on the expanded universe, including the novels by Timothy Zahn and Kevin J. Anderson, and the Dark Horse Comics series

01:15:48 Regarding the video games

01:19:43 John and Dave geek out properly on the sheer awesomeness of lightsabers

01:25:18 Show wrap-up

Next week: Corey Olsen, host of the podcast The Tolkien Professor

Thanks for listening!

John Joseph Adams (www.johnjosephadams.com) is an anthologist, a writer, and a geek. He is the editor of the anthologies By Blood We Live, Federations, The Improbable Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The Living Dead (a World Fantasy Award finalist), Seeds of Change, and Wastelands: Stories of the Apocalypse. He is currently assembling several other anthologies, including Brave New Worlds, The Living Dead 2, The Mad Scientist’s Guide to World Domination, and The Way of the Wizard. He worked for more than eight years as an editor at The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, and is currently the fiction editor of Lightspeed Magazine, which launches in June 2010.

David Barr Kirtley (www.davidbarrkirtley.com) is a writer living in New York who has been called “one of the newest and freshest voices in sf.” His short fiction appears in magazines such as Realms of Fantasy and Weird Tales, and in anthologies such as The Living Dead, New Voices in Science Fiction, and Fantasy: The Best of the Year, 2008 Edition.

Show notes compiled by podtern Christie Yant. Friend us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter.

22 comments

1. NomadUK

VIEW ALL BY | Monday March 15, 2010 05:22am EDT | amended on Monday March 15, 2010 05:40am EDT

I've generally enjoyed listening to the last couple of podcasts from this crew, and because I'm interested in today's topic I'm working my way through it, but I really do have to say that listening to someone who makes every declarative sentence sound like a question gets tiresome after awhile. Where do people pick up that mannerism?

Anyway, for what it's worth, I agree with Philippe's bifurcated ordering of episodes: 5-4-6-3-2-1 for quality, and 4-5-6-3-2-1 for enjoyment, and there are a couple of Cassini divisions in there, a small one between 4/5 and 6, and a yawning chasm between 6 and 3.

It's just tragically unfortunate that Lucas didn't continue with external directors and writers after The Empire Strikes Back, and just remain a guiding force, an executive producer. It's like Roddenberry and Star Trek: great concept artists, just keep them away from the camera and the script.

2. subwoofer

VIEW ALL BY | Monday March 15, 2010 12:21pm EDT

Crap basket! I had a long and well thought out comment that just went up in smoke. Oh well, folks will just have to make do with this then...

Lucas- man was a visionary and a genius. No doubt. But he also sold out to Hasbro and Mattel. If it wasn't for the toy spin-offs, would we be subjected to the Clone Wars, Jar Jar etc? The man had a vision and then it became clouded by dollar signs. About the only saving grace is the audio and special effects companies that were residuals and changed film as we know.

I remember standing in the wrong flippin' line for Empire. One line for ticket holders, the other for ticket buyers. Silly me. My first negative experience with Lucas.

But I also remember another iconic movie of Lucas- American Graffiti. That was such a good movie for me. Classic. And a snap shot of a movement. Lucas had that power. Indy was another. Raiders came out and I said holy $%!*! Heck, back in the day, when it made it to video after a year, it was a top renter for six months. Lucas had the ability and vision to change film making. Then he went sideways.

I am not a purist by any stretch of the imagination so it should not come as a shock that I was excited for Phantom. We had a film marathon and then caught a special showing as a buddy of mine was a manager of a theater so he gave us an advanced screening before the rest of the world saw it. I could of done without the really long segments of filler and the Jar Jar schtuff, but the Sith at the end made it worth while for me.

I am not a film buff in the sense of story or editing or things of that nature so to this day I am still not a huge fan of Empire. The black hats won that round and Han was frozen. But I will go a 4-6-5-3-1-2 line.

I also appreciate the idea of rebooting the series. I know some hardcore folks are rolling over in their graves, but what about putting modern tech to this. the movies are what 30 some odd years old? Dang, that makes me old! But anyways, it did work for Batman, it has yet to work for the Hulk, and there are some other films out there that could use some sprucing up. Hollywood rehashed ideas all the time. Look at the new Bruce Willis, cop buddy flick. Nothing original there. This would be something that actually warrants a remake. It was the pioneer of most of the modern era of movies.

The hard part would be the casting. Who would play Chewy?

Woof™

3. Samadai

VIEW ALL BY | Monday March 15, 2010 12:43pm EDT

Sub,

You are the woofer of the bunch, I nominate you.

4. NomadUK

VIEW ALL BY | Monday March 15, 2010 01:58pm EDT

I've always been torn between the theory that Lucas just went Gordon Gecko on everyone after TESB, and that he simply lost it, in the way that many artists do when they reach a certain age: think Isaac Asimov. I guess Phillipe's documentary leans toward the money explanation, and I suppose that's as good as any.

I remember seeing Star Wars when it first came out in Washington, DC; lines down around the block, like nothing anyone had ever seen before. And the moment when that battle cruiser cam rumbling overhead and kept coming, and coming, and coming....

That's what I'd like to feel again, but perhaps the age of this viewer prohibits that sense of wonder any longer.

As far as 'reboots' go (I'm getting tired of that term; I think we used to call them 'remakes'), what would be the point? The first two films are virtually perfect. Could modern technology actually make them any better? What, make Luke Skywalker some down-and-out rent boy rescued from the mean streets of Mos Eisley by Obi Wan Kenobi?

Here's a thought: How about writers and directors and producers do something like — oh, I don't know — come up with an original idea, and make a film out of it? I think that's worked before, once or twice.

5. Jedikalos

VIEW ALL BY | Monday March 15, 2010 02:18pm EDT

Then there are those, like me, who pretty much enjoy all the films and expanded universe, and the action figures, etc. etc., and have simply enjoyed most all of it. But having studied logic, I know that my liking it doesn't make it good (or that my disliking it makes it bad). If I ran into Lucas, I would just thank him for all the entertainment he had given me, all the hours and hours of, well, to put it simply, fun.

And that, as they say, is my two cents.

6. JoshuaEvans

VIEW ALL BY | Tuesday March 16, 2010 10:35am EDT

Hey Guys, another great show. The parts of EP2 that I enjoyed were the clones. I also enjoyed the Republic Commando video game where you are part of squad of clones going on missions. Then for books, there is Karen Traviss's Republic Commando books. She delves into the lives of the clones who aren't just merely flesh robots and have feelings and are trying to adjust to this world they've been thrust into. There are like 6 of those books now, I've enjoyed the first two.

Darth Maul was amazing. They should have done way more with him. The Darth Maul Shadow Warrior book is decent if I remember correctly.

Knights of the Old Republic was an awesome video game. I have high hopes for the upcoming MMO. And of course Lego Star Wars is just fun. It's not afraid to make fun of it's cheesy moments too.

Looking forward to Tolkien next week.

7. TWGrace

VIEW ALL BY | Wednesday March 17, 2010 12:16am EDT

The movies make more sense if you look at them as propaganda from the "bad" side...

In other words, think of Lucas as Leni Riefenstahl...

;)

8. joshkidd

VIEW ALL BY | Wednesday March 17, 2010 04:15pm EDT

I generally agree that scenes where good people die make the movie more interesting and scarier, but... My least favorite scene in all of Star Wars is the one where Anakin kills the young Jedi. This scene just underscores the unrealistic transition that he makes to the Dark Side. I just don't believe that you could go from being a more-or-less good guy to someone who would be willing to slaughter a room full of six-year-olds in the span of a few hours.

This may tie in to the questionable ethics of Star Wars. But Anakin's switch to the Dark Side has always bugged me. His journey is completed when he saves Palpatine's life from Mace Windu who was clearly power-tripping at the time. Regardless of the fact that Palpatine is evil and Anakin acts in his own self interest, it is an act of compassion. It doesn't seem like it should be enough to flip a switch in Anakin's soul that allows him to murder children, seemingly without remorse.

9. joshkidd

VIEW ALL BY | Wednesday March 17, 2010 04:17pm EDT

Oh, I also wanted to comment on how the books often close some of the logical gaps in the movies. I was thinking of this particularly when you were talking about giving light sabers to little kids. In one of the books I read, Padawans were given training light sabers that couldn't do as much damage as a real one.

10. NomadUK

VIEW ALL BY | Wednesday March 17, 2010 04:41pm EDT

joshkidd: You've hit upon one of the major flaws in all of the Star Wars films following The Empire Strikes Back: Darth Vader becomes completely unbelievable. He goes in one episode (Return of the Jedi) from being the biggest, baddest, most evillest dude in the entire Galaxy, right-hand man of the Emperor, mass murderer, slaughterer of innocents on a planetary scale — to a chubby, smiling bloke who turns over a new leaf because ... well, because he likes his kids?

I mean, what the fuck? Apropos of another thread on this site, I'll go right ahead and say it: That sucks.

Kodos the Executioner killed a measily 5,000 people, and look what happened to him.

Look, Vader's doom was to be destroyed by Luke, or by the Emperor, or by a crisis of his own making if the writer didn't want Skywalker sullying his hands with the death of his own unspeakably evil father. And Vader must have been created when he was driven irrevocably insane in whatever accident put him inside his suit. These facts are obvious, clearly to be inferred from the first two films.

Yet Lucas lost it sometime during the making of TESB, and RoTJ and the remaining waste of celluloid were the result. And then he even went back and tried to clean up what less-than-admirable traits Han Solo — Han Solo — had by fuck- er, fixing up that blaster shot in the canteen.

Maybe Lucas had a stroke or something; I don't know. What a waste.

11. subwoofer

VIEW ALL BY | Wednesday March 17, 2010 04:59pm EDT

Well Nomad, I hear what you are saying. But not everything needs to be black and white in Lucas world. Look no further than the Storm Troopers decked out in white as a prime example. Yes, Vader was supposed to be a bad ass henchman and ultimate goon that must meet his just deserts at the end. OTOH, if you want to step back and look at it, take what Obi-Wan Kenowbi told Vader, "strike me down and I will become stronger than you could ever imagine"... or something to that effect.

Vader was a good guy, granted he was a numb nuts, but he started out as a good guy. Like the WoT series TOR is recapping or look no further than Constantine, the question becomes- "can you walk in the dark so long that you can never return to the light?" For me, I think Vader is the Prodigal Son. Lucas expanded the imaginations of many with New Hope, but he still can tip his hat to something Biblical.

Woof™.

14. joshkidd

VIEW ALL BY | Wednesday March 17, 2010 08:13pm EDT

NomadUK: I feel you. Although, I'm less bothered by that in Return of the Jedi. In the climactic showdown, I see Vader and Luke set up as Yin and Yang. It's cool because this is evident physically--Luke is mostly human with a machine hand, Vader is mostly machine with some human hand--and it also works on a good vs. evil level. The Emperor works to bring the evil out of the mostly good Luke and Luke works to bring the good out of the mostly evil Vader. I can appreciate that even if it's not entirely believable. Also, I'm a sucker for redemption stories because I like to believe that people can change. Admittedly, Return of the Jedi is a third-rate redemption story, but I kind of like it for that reason.

The prequels are a problem for other reasons entirely. First of all, Anakin is never a likable character. You basically hate him throughout the entire series, so there's no emotional investment when you see him go bad. Second, his transformation seems really forced and sudden. I remember talking to a friend about this after Episode 2 came out. We were lamenting that Anakin's transformation wasn't more like the transformation of Michael Corleone in The Godfather. Of course, it may be asking too much of Lucas that he match what might be the greatest character transformation in all of film, but even if he had handled Anakin half as well, Episodes 2 and 3 might have been amazing films.

15. NomadUK

VIEW ALL BY | Thursday March 18, 2010 02:28am EDT

Well, I had a reply all set up for subwoofer, but for some reason I've been spam filtered. I'm not going to retype the whole thing, so I suppose we'll just see whether the 'moderator' ever releases it.

16. NomadUK

VIEW ALL BY | Sunday March 21, 2010 03:31am EDT

Apparently not. Oh, well. Bits lost in the swirling quantum foam of time, I guess.

17. subwoofer

VIEW ALL BY | Sunday March 21, 2010 03:17pm EDT

@Nomad- if you have it on word or notepad- resubmit. I have had many posts get shinobied. Initially I blamed some safety-for-all #$@@#! for it but then came to my senses as other folks had the same occurrence. No worries, I have thick skin and I am interested in your take of things. I know it is not life and death we discuss on theses threads so let 'er rip. As long as I can do the same, it is all good.

Helps expand my horizons, maybe even keeps my knuckles from dragging on the ground;)

Woof™.

19. NomadUK

VIEW ALL BY | Sunday March 21, 2010 03:46pm EDT

WTF? Okay, now that's twice, and the second time wasn't even the same text as the first. I'm guessing that it doesn't like my link for some reason. So here's what I wrote, and you can go Wiki it yourself:

subwoofer@17: Nothing dramatic, really; just disagreed with your depiction of Vader as the Prodigal Son. I think he should be closer to the Penitent Thief. Forgiveness is divine, but he's got to pay.

20. subwoofer

VIEW ALL BY | Sunday March 21, 2010 05:42pm EDT

Good point- Gospel of Luke. Yes, the thief died on the cross, but realized that faith in Christ is what leads to heaven. But he still died. hmmmmmmmmm.

And you don't think Vader paid? A life time being astray from the true path. Vader's purpose was to bring balance to the Force. For me, I always felt that the Force was out of whack as there was too much good. I am not sure what greatness Vader could have done for good- maybe the hardships are what makes his children as great as they were.

On the biblical side of things, Yoda and Obi-Wan were his foils. They embraced him back into the fold. I don't think that is too far off the mark as far as the Prodigal Son returning. Mind you, which ever the parable we follow, the end result is the same... each searching for their place in heaven.

Woof™.

21. JoshuaEvans

VIEW ALL BY | Monday March 22, 2010 10:04am EDT

I always took it as that way too Woof, Vader did bring balance to the force, just not in the way that all the Jedi were expecting it.

22. johnjosephadams

VIEW ALL BY | Monday March 22, 2010 03:15pm EDT | amended on Monday March 22, 2010 03:16pm EDT

Someone reported that the comments are closed on this post. This is just a test to see if that's the case.

EDIT: Apparently not, though some of you reported trouble posting. Carry on!

23. HendelTBD

Monday April 26, 2010 07:39pm EDT

Talking about early Star Wars novels, what about Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy (set,I assume for some kind of legal reasons, outside of the Empire)? Loved those. Also L. Neil Smith's somewhat less memorable Lando trilogy...

24. captain rick

Friday May 07, 2010 05:12am EDT

"spirited and balanced discussion"
haha
can't wait to see that!

Captain Rick
Star Wars Comic

25. drdoombot

Tuesday May 25, 2010 03:01pm EDT

but I really do have to say that listening to someone who makes every declarative sentence sound like a question gets tiresome after awhile. Where do people pick up that mannerism?

I thought I was the only one who noticed.

I really love the content of this podcast (it's the only one I listen to), but Kirtley's habit of making every phrase sound like a question is quite distracting.

Are you nervous, David? Don't be, we all love this show!

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