Before we get started on “The Passing of the Grey Company,” chapter 2 of book V of The Return of the King, two things. First, my apologies for the long delay between chapter posts; it’s amazing what a big hole a sick kid can put in one’s schedule. (You might be saying at this point, “Gosh, Kate, you’ve said your kid’s been sick a lot when you’re begging our pardon for not being around much.” To which I say, “Thanks for noticing.”)
Second, I am currently auctioning the opportunity to be me! Or, more precisely, to make a guest post on this very re-read or have me write about a topic of your choice. Bid on the auction at this LiveJournal post, after reading the instructions. Bidding closes Saturday, March 13, at 11:59 p.m. Eastern; more cool stuff is highlighted here.
And now, without further ado: “The Passing of the Grey Company.”
What Happens
Merry, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli ride with Théoden after Gandalf and Pippin depart. They are found by Elrond’s sons and a group of Dúnedain, who bring counsel from Elrond and a standard from Arwen. They sleep at the Hornburg, and in the morning Merry swears service to Théoden.
Aragorn announces that he must move more quickly, so he and his kindred will take the Paths of the Dead. After the Riders leave with Merry, Aragorn tells Legolas and Gimli that the night before, he looked in the Orthanc palantír. He revealed himself to Sauron as the heir of Isildur and wrenched the palantír away from Sauron’s control, barely, to see a threat to Minas Tirith coming from the South. Aragorn tells the others about the men cursed by Isildur to never rest until they fulfill their broken oath, whom he intends to summon to his aid.
Aragorn’s party rest that night at Dunharrow. Éowyn asks to ride with his company, which he refuses. They enter the Paths of the Dead and find whispers and the sense of a following crowd. Aragorn summons the Dead to the Stone of Erech; the company rides hard and arrives there just before midnight. There Aragorn declares himself Isildur’s heir, unfurls Arwen’s standard, and promises the Dead peace if they assist him now. They travel south in great haste, into the dawnless day with the Dead following after.
Comments
Another long, fabulous chapter! The opening of this book is, I think, my favorite sustained sequence in the re-read so far.
There’s a nice reference back to the end of Book III, when Merry says that he doesn’t want to be “like baggage to be called for when all is over”: on checking, he was the one who asked Gandalf about their being “small rag-tag dangling behind,” and obviously that still rankles. As of course it should, since it’s only been a few hours, but it’s easy to forget that with a whole book in-between, so I appreciate the reminder. (This is probably anachronistic: called for where, at a train station? But I, at least, didn’t notice until I was proofreading this post.)
Merry and Théoden also pick up their relationship from Book III, with Théoden immediately having Merry sit by his side and naming him his esquire. Merry’s swearing to Théoden is an instructive compare-and-contrast with Pippin’s swearing to Denethor. Théoden offers Merry the kindness of riding with him without prompting or apparent ulterior motive, and Merry responds:
Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. ‘May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Théoden King?’ he cried. ‘Receive my service, if you will!’
‘Gladly will I take it,’ said the king; and laying his long old hands upon the brown hair of the hobbit, he blessed him. ‘Rise now, Meriadoc, esquire of Rohan of the household of Meduseld!’ he said. ‘Take your sword and bear it unto good fortune!’
‘As a father you shall be to me,’ said Merry.
‘For a little while,’ said Théoden.
So: Merry offers his service in response to kindness, not scorn and suspicion, and out of love, not pride. Théoden receives it with a blessing, not a binding oath, and positions them as family to each other, not as master and servant, while acknowledging the inevitability of a coming end, instead of fiercely denying it. Instructive, indeed. Also, it makes me sniffle a bit for the both of them.
* * *
I don’t have much to say about the Dúnedain and Elrond’s sons. They have never made much of an impression on me and that hasn’t changed now. In fact, if we met on the street and you asked me the names of Elrond’s sons, I’d have to look them up (Elladan and Elrohir). Anyone have anything to say about them?
* * *
This is a very Aragorn-centric chapter, though not told from his point of view; insofar as the latter sections have an individual point of view, it’s Gimli’s. Again, I wonder what the book would have been like if it had managed to integrate Aragorn’s backstory into the text proper, instead of leaving it mostly for the Appendices. A statement like “Always my days have seemed to me too short to achieve my desire” has a much different resonance to me now than it did in the past, before I had really looked at Aragorn’s character in light of the whole text.
I believe there’s been discussions in the past about whether it was a good decision of Aragorn’s to look in the palantír? Me, I can’t get particularly passionate about it: he did it, it worked, so he was correct that he was able to do it. (Again, this is informed by the hints we get at all the things he’s been through in the Appendices, which to me makes his belief that he could pit his will against Sauron’s a lot more reasonable.) I welcome other viewpoints in the comments.
I wonder what “other guise” Aragorn showed Sauron, besides the reforged sword? Did he just de-scruff for the occasion, did he wrap himself in Arwen’s standard, or is it something less material/more mythic? I have no idea.
While we’re talking about the use of the palantír, I’ll note for later that apparently I don’t remember the logistics of the battles here. I’d vaguely assumed that the unlooked-for peril Aragorn saw in the palantír was the Corsairs, except that Gondor’s already heard about a black fleet: the people watching the Captains of the Outlands arriving refer to it as common knowledge.
Finally for this bit, am I right that the words of Malbeth the Seer are in alliterative verse, the kind with implicit pauses in the middle of lines?
at the Stone of Erech || they shall stand again
and hear there a horn || in the hills ringing.
(Notice how I pick two lines from the middle, because they’re the ones that I feel most confident in my guesses about the pauses? Yeah, fear my l33t poetry skillz!)
* * *
Oh, now for the painful bit: Éowyn.
These conversations made me very nearly writhe in my chair as I read, because here’s the thing: they’re both right, in different ways. Aragorn is correct that she can’t abandon her duty, and Éowyn is justified in feeling bitter that she is always given this duty.
(By the way: I do not want to hear that she should have been left behind because she’s a woman and therefore not as good a fighter as the men, i.e., as every single man who wasn’t left behind. She KILLED A FUCKING FELL BEAST, that argument is not on the table. Appoint as leader an older man who is respected for his age and wisdom but no longer young and fast and able to KILL A FUCKING FELL BEAST.
Ahem. I hope we’re clear on that.)
I do have to say, however, that I thought Aragorn a bit less than tactful when he offers Éowyn “valour without renown.” Éowyn hears this, and I think quite reasonably, as another way of saying “when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.” I suppose he was actually demonstrating the difference between high Númenóreans and the Rohirrim, the different emphasis they put on known valor and warriors and so forth. But it still hardly seems an argument likely to reach Éowyn at this point.
Anyway. Gorgeous, painful section; I’m sure we’ll be revisiting it extensively in chapters to come.
* * *
The Paths of the Dead. This is mostly from Gimli’s point of view, which I think is a terrific choice, as well as the only realistic one. Legolas isn’t afraid of the dead generally, Aragorn is out-of-bounds as a POV character, we don’t know any of the new people, but “Gimli Glóin’s son who had walked unafraid in many deep places of the world”? If he’s scared, so am I.
And I was. I particularly liked the torches that went out and could not be re-lit, which is either a demonstration of just how creepy the Dead are, that the torches can’t even cope in their presence, or a manifestation of the active, deliberate powers of the Dead—I strongly prefer the former. Gimli, poor thing, is reduced to “crawling like a beast on the ground,” which is another instance of fear making people animal-like, as John Garth pointed out.
(The dead man they find is Baldor, which is explained briefly in the next chapter.)
Does anyone have a theory why Aragorn says they have to come to the Stone of Erech before midnight? Does his summons have some implicit good-for-this-day-only condition in it, and the Dead would turn on them after it expires? That strikes me as rather less than useful, if so, and also not apparent from his verbal summons to them. Or maybe the Dead are like gremlins and get special powers after midnight?
What did the bit with the standard do for you all when you first read it? Specifically,
And with that he bade Halbarad unfurl the great standard which he had brought; and behold! it was black, and if there was any device upon it, it was hidden in the darkness. Then there was silence, and not a whisper nor a sigh was heard again all the long night.
I think I tended to pass over it with a bit of a “well, that was weird, whatever” feeling. Looking at it now, I am not sure what effect it was supposed to produce on me, but I find it . . . odd. “Behold!”, a standard that could be just plain black for all we know? Arwen couldn’t have made something that gave off light on its own accord, which would be very symbolic and useful and such? (Someone should market a black flag with a glow-in-the-dark White Tree, seven stars, and crown. I would absolutely buy one for SteelyKid’s room.) The Dead accept that as proof, when anyone can make a flag? Enh.
Very soon after we get the chapter’s closing paragraph, which is a mix of place names that meant nothing to me until I pulled out the folded map at the back of my one-volume collector’s edition and excellent creepiness:
They passed Tarlang’s Neck and came into Lamedon; and the Shadow Host pressed behind and fear went on before them, until they came to Calembel upon Ciril, and the sun went down like blood behind Pinnath Gelin away in the West behind them. The township and the fords of Ciril they found deserted, for many men had gone away to war, and all that were left fled to the hills at the rumour of the coming of the King of the Dead. But the next day there came no dawn, and the Grey Company passed on into the darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were lost to mortal sight; but the Dead followed them.
With bonus orienting us in time relative to the prior chapter! I appreciate it, at least.
All right. I will do my best to make the next post at a shorter interval. Meanwhile, go forth and bid on the auction to make a guest post here!
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Kate Nepveu was born in South Korea and grew up in New England. She now lives in upstate New York where she is practicing law, raising a family, and (in her copious free time) writing at her LiveJournal and booklog.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 04:39pm EST
On subsequent readings, I assumed that the dead could both see what was written on it, and could tell that it was Elven-work, and that the combination of these two was a sign to them that he had been acknowledged as the heir by the people with the knowledge to do so, and thus could speak ex officio. Both ways, it seemed like a clear sign that Aragorn had started to assume the mê of kingship, and thus a sign that we were entering the end-game of the story.
Monday March 08, 2010 04:55pm EST
These always struck me as a Missed Moment of Awesome. Initially, my reaction was the same as Theoden's: we all know that Aragorn is a badass, we just got 30 more Aragorns, we are going to kick some serious ass! But we never really get to see them doing anything.
I wish we had stayed with this plotline more. I would have liked to see the further adventures of Aragorn and his group and see the Dunedain live up to their reputation.
On the palantir:
I'm firmly on the side that Aragorn was right to use it. As well as learning from the appendices just how strong Aragorn is, there's also the factor of just how much the palantir prefer their rightful owners over interlopers; Sauron does not have the right to his, and it will never work as well for him as it will for someone like Aragorn. The "rightful owner" clause was enough for even Denethor to use his palantir without falling to Sauron for years. Aragorn had good reason to believe that he could win this contest.
On Eowyn:
I do understand her frustration with not being allowed to go to the front lines, but on the other hand, she's acting queen of Rohan. Does she really think that being made acting queen is the equivalent of being told to "stay in the kitchen"? I think that's the part that Aragorn says is Wormtongue's influence: despite the importance of the task she was given, she seems to believe she only got it because they don't respect her abilities in other areas.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 05:16pm EST
One of the things that seems to be harder and harder for fantasy writers to get right (or have at all) is time-and-distance stuff: we live in a world where something known in one place is known swiftly all over, and where everywhere is only 24 hours apart (if you have enough money). So people either bypass it or just assume that handy magic spells fix it all -- which leads to a loss of landscape; distance doesn't matter anymore, and you don't spend time going through the land and learning what it's like. (Not that I mind being able to visit my parents quickly several states away, but I do miss learning what the world is like between us -- so I've been taking the train the last couple of years.) Tolkien gets those distance relations right, though it seems to have taken him rather some pains.
As far as Eowyn goes, the one thing you haven't really touched in yet is that this is also an example of Gruff Old Guy Telling Frustrated Teen The Way Things Are -- because of his Numenorean longevity, and because he seldom makes a point of it, it's easy to forget that Aragorn is eighty-eight years old in TA 3019. Aragorn understands Eowyn's problem perfectly well, and sympathetically -- as we will see when he hits Eomer over the head with a Giant Cluebat in the Houses of Healing later! -- but you can't run away from your responsibilities when you're in command, unfair as it may be if you are. But he can't force Eowyn to listen to him; that sort of advice never sticks unless the person is already ready to hear it, and Eowyn isn't. And, as you point out, Kate, Aragorn knows that valor need not be public to be worthwhile, which is something I don't think the Rohirrim have in their cultural mindset, where public recognition of the deed, praise by one's lord, is a necessary completion of accomplishment.
The Dead can probably see in the dark, so they know what the flag is (and, yes, I'd totally buy one of those glow-in-the-dark banners too), but this is a wonderful foreshadowing (and contrast, alternating dark and light again) of the moment when the banner is unveiled once more, in the sunlight and new wind of the bright morning on the Fields of Pelennor before the City.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 05:54pm EST
Palantir: I think I opened the snark on Aragorn's use of the palantir with the "Hey, eye boy!" remark. The only real argument against its use here is that Gandalf had just (over a book ago, but only a few hours in time) urged great caution with it. Obviously, you can't argue with success, and Aragorn is aware that everything they are doing is only a distraction. This is certainly a good way to deflect Sauron's attention to the west and away from Frodo. As for the "other guise", apart from the reforged sword and the Star of Elendil as others have pointed out, he probably also began to unfold his "kingly aura" if you will. He has been hiding his true identity for his whole life, and now he has given Sauron a quick glimpse.
Eowyn: Lsana @2 makes a good point about her being acting queen. Another factor here is that even if they are successful, should both Theoden and Eomer be killed, Eowyn is the last of the royal line. She has a duty to prevent if from dying out. Her reaction to "being given permission to be burned in the house" is probably an aftereffect of Wormtongue's poison. She would certainly be expected to go down with a sword in her hand, taking as many of the enemy with her she can. The doomed last stand was a powerful form of glory in the Germanic cultures that served as a model for the Rohirrim (and for a lot of other cultures too; think Thermopylae, the Alamo, Gordon in Khartoum). Consider Theoden's charge at Helm's Deep. They were all expecting to die, but they were going to make it count. No less would have been expected of Eowyn. Of course, her presence and Merry's at the Pelennor Fields was a prophetic necessity.
The banner: The dead could probably see the device on the banner, but mortal eyes seeing it as only black also recalls the type of the mysterious knight without a heraldic device. This is often the missing heir or what have you.
Merry: I think Merry's oath is much more moving (and is meant to be). One way of looking at it is that Pippin swore his oath to Gondor, while Merry swore his to Theoden. Merry's has a much greater emotional impact, but Pippin's is probably more powerful, being sworn to an abstract.
Monday March 08, 2010 07:46pm EST
I think this may be an echo of Tolkien's time in the trenches. He no doubt saw lots of courage that was not done with a field-grade officer watching and thus was not worth a medal (our equivalent of a song). Presumably he thought it was worthwhile anyway.
I would also agree with the commenters that Eowyn not going to war is not because she lacks skill, it is because she is the last of the House of Eorl, and thus nobody can lead the people as well as she can. I think Hama says as much at one point.
Great re-read, by the way. I just stumbled across it, and am enjoying it a lot.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 07:49pm EST
If Eomer had a younger brother instead of a sister, he would have been left in the same position I think. Although Eowyn doesn't want to hear it, you don't put just any chump in charge of protecting/ruling the people that remain while the King and army are away.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 08:11pm EST
and hear there a horn || in the hills ringing.
Old English alliterative verse had four stressed syllables per line - fwliw they're still a feature in English verse - and these four syllables coincided with the major stressed syllables of the major words in each line. Eg, with the ' indicating the following syllable is stressed and thus poetically important:
at the 'Stone of 'Erech || they shall 'stand ag'ain
and 'hear there a 'horn || in the 'hills 'ringing.
Three syllables were supposed to start with identical consonants, the fourth syllable could be assonant, or start with a vowel: vowels did not have to be identical. Minor stressed syllables were frequently used to break up the steady "thump-thump-thump-thump", using the ` to indicate minor stress:
and 'hear `there a 'horn || in the 'hills 'ringing.
With the caesura in the middle, breaking up the lines into two - you've got that correctly.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 08:19pm EST
He's speaking from hard-won experience. And Eowyn's not in any position to contradict him.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 08:48pm EST
That I think is what drives her to abandon her post and seek death as an (anonymous) warrior in the war-band of her uncle.
Monday March 08, 2010 09:03pm EST
Whatever rational arguments for her holding to her duty--and I can't dispute them--the pain she feels and the love and longing she feels--and not just for Aragon--aches.
I picture Aragorn in shining armor with Arwen's banner behind him and the Dundedain standing by as his retainers. His strength and virtue come as a shock to the Dark Lord who did not know of his existence.
And yet Gimli is the best pov character for the "Passing." He is young and inexperienced for a Dwarf, and like Hobbits can stand in for the reader because of his limited vision. For this reason I regret JRRT's revision of Aragorn's anger at him in the first edition. Like the rest of us Gimli can't quite get it.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 09:29pm EST
Aragorn looking in the Palantir - Was a funny change in him. The entire story he has been the reluctant king. Now he just goes for it with a "hey, It's my right and I knew I could do it no matter what you thought Elrond." He has become a baddass.
Eowyn - No matter what the honor in it, she was left at Meduseld against her will in the first place by an Uncle/Father trying to protect her. Being left home again is a snub. And the whole in love with Aragorn thing (horribly melodramatized in the the movies) should have been nipped in the bud from the beginning. Aragorn is Way taken. The scene at the doorstep is painful.
Riding out of the Paths of the Dead - I did exactly as you did with the maps about 4 readings ago. It helped then.
Kate - Hope the kid feels better. My 4 young ones have been passing around the same thing - Baby may get tubes soon.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 08, 2010 09:46pm EST
Aragorn is taken, and knows it (and it's not just "loves someone else", it's "formally betrothed to someone else"), but he has to deal gently with Eowyn for many reasons, not least of which is compassion: it would be brutal to just crush or dismiss her, so he has to be courteous all the way through, and it's heartwrenching.
Monday March 08, 2010 10:16pm EST
She is infatuated, or in love with him, like a lady in a medieval romance, which requires a lot less in terms of heart-to-heart connections and a lot more admiring how he looks in a suit of armor. I never really saw it as a modern-type love story like Eowyn and Faramir or Sam and Rosie. (That's why I accepted P. Jackson's silly Arwen leaving thing, since its the only way to make the love triangle work as a modern relationship.) Or maybe I'm just reading it wrong. I'm not female, but it seems weird to me to try and put E and A in the model of modern romance.
Tuesday March 09, 2010 02:22am EST
From the appendices we also know that Aragorn had given the corsairs a crushing defeat when serving Denethor's father.
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday March 09, 2010 06:41am EST
at the Stone of Erech || they shall stand again
and hear there a horn || in the hills ringing.
This is possibly just because I'm used to looking for it, but I'm seeing a lot of Welsh poetic tradition here - it's a pretty good attempt at doing cynghanedd in English. That's not a denigration, because it's incredibly difficult to do cynghanedd in English while still making sense, and of course Tolkien knew a lot about it.
Cynghanedd works by repeating patterns of sounds, mostly consonants, across the caesura - here we have
-- th -- st-n -- ech-- || th -- st-n -- (en)
-- th- h-rn || - th- h -- r-n--
The assonance within words is an extra feature not present in the standard AS verse structure.
There's a lot of crossfertilization between the Welsh (ie. old British) and Anglo-Saxon traditions, and people have been picking them up on and off ever since - Gerard Manley Hopkins used a lot of it.
Tuesday March 09, 2010 01:21pm EST
The standard! Ah, the standard. I've read quite a few "disappointed" opinions of people who are upset that of all things Arwen might have done for him, she made him a pretty flag. But consider this: Arwen is the descendant of Luthien, daughter of Elrond Halfelven, and related to Galadriel. She is a powerful elven lady in her own right. Is it really that likely that "pretty" is the only thing that standard has going for it? Think about it. It apparently solidifies Aragorn's hold over the dead. When it's unfurled at the Pelennor, Mordor's soldiery was immediately "filled with dread and terror" because they somehow instantly understood that their ships were full of enemies. And all of Gondor's defenders were suddenly filled with joy and hope and fresh energy at the sight. Remember that very little of the magic in Tolkien's Middle Earth is flashy and ostentatious, particularly elven "magic". My opinion is that the standard had a great deal of "oomph" woven into it.
This scene with Eowyn makes me cry, every time. At the point she meets Aragorn, her pride is all she has left, and that's why seeing her fall to her knees and beg is such a tragedy. It's not so much that she loves him, in the modern or even mediaeval-romance sense. To her, Aragorn represents one last chance to bind her (tarnished, thanks to Wormtongue) name to something worthwhile and honourable. Failing that, all she wants is a clean and honourable death. That's the thing the movies got really wrong with her: she went to war not out of some feminist impulse but to seek death. That she is instead granted renown and honour for her courage and skill is one of things that makes Tolkien's world so wonderful - it doesn't have to be a tragedy. Grace and redemption are possible.
Tuesday March 09, 2010 01:30pm EST
That 'checked' baggage struck me from the very first reading, and did for every subsequent re-reading. As anachronisms usually bump me out of the page, this one didn't matter, though unable to say why.
Aragorn showed himself to Sauron as the Heir to one who'd previously defeated the Dark Lord, as the King Who Has Returned, his true self, for the first time. His unveiling, as it were, provided the greatest goad to Sauron's self-confidence, an enormous distraction from seeking his Ring.
This action allows an added authenticity to Aragorn's stark response to Eowyn's desire to travel with him. As was mentioned above, Aragorn has been fighting without renown himself for these endless years, long before she was ever born. That's catastrophes, great and small, public and private. People of all kinds perform heroic acts without recognition. Sometimes indeed the most heroic act is just keeping on despite the lack of joy or hope. LOTR repeats this to the reader many times, probably more often than most readers want to read it. Nevertheless, it remains as true now as it was within the world of LOTR.
I re-read The Children of Húrin again this winter, which tells the tale of the rise of Morgoth and the disappeared lands referenced in LOTR. This tale ends without hope. Yet, somehow, out of this, ages later, we are now here ....
Love, C.
Tuesday March 09, 2010 02:52pm EST
I don't see Eowyn as in love with Aragorn. Has a crush on, yes. Sees him as a way of escape from something she scorns but feels dutybound to stick to, yes. She feels trapped by Wormtongue's words and harrassment, by Theoden's long illness - she wants OUT. Home is associated with all that. I can understand her not wanting to stay, but as others have said, she's the last of the royal line and that's who the people trust.
Someone... #4, DemetriosX wrote that her presence and Merry's at Pelennor, was a prophetic necessity. I don't think so. Yeah, I know. Not by the hand of man etc. Still, remember Gandalf in a hurry to go out of the city and Pippin drags him away to Denethor's pyre? Gandalf was hurrying out to deal with the Witch-King, and later says that much harm has fallen that because he had to deal with Denethor instead. Gandalf isn't a man, either, he could have fulfilled the prophecy just as well, and it reads to me as if he intended to.
On 'baggage'. It never bothered me, and so when I saw people complaining about it, I looked it up. It's not modern, although it's from Middle French, which makes it an odd choice for Tolkien, who tended to prefer AS. One of the oldest uses is as military equipment not carried personally by the warriors. OTOH, the full line from Merry certainly sounds modern.
Later, in the Frodo/Sam section we get a glimpse of what Sauron saw from Aragorn's time with the palantir. Something like 'the tower was wrapped and brooding, a bright sword and stern and kingly face it saw..." Aragorn's idea that it would cause Sauron to look out, within his land panned out.
Now in #11, alfoss1540 wrote that Aragorn had been all along in the story a reluctant king. No. Not at all, that's the movies talking, not the story. He's been working towards the kingship probably all his life, and certainly since he and Arwen declared their love. That's one of the reasons he was going to Minas Tirith, the prophecy called him, so he took it as a sign the time was come. With the fellowship he didn't make a big deal of it - maybe also for Boromir's sake - because they didn't need it. But he announces himself upfront as rightful king of Gondor to the first strangers he meets - Eomer and the Rohirrim. He doesn't do 'kingliness in command ' at Helm's Deep, because Theoden is doing quite a good job of it already, and Theoden is allied with Gondor - you don't treat the allies rudely.
Tuesday March 09, 2010 04:31pm EST
It also seems appropriate that Elendil and Elrond, leaders of the last Alliance to defeat Sauron, be represented by their heirs, as well as significant that this is primarily a battle between Men, and the elves, who are already leaving middle earth, send no army this time.
As for Aragorn's challenge, to recap, Sauron "knows" that Saruman captured a hobbit or two, and that they might have the One Ring. Saruman refused to yield a prisoner and was incommunicado when Sauron sent a Nazgul after him, a sure sign of betrayal, and the follow-up messenger reported that he was overthrown. Within a few days, this man bearing the tokens of Elendil's heir shows himself and wrests control of the Orthanc Palantir. The new Ringlord?
One of Aragorn's lines here has always tickled my fancy. "Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough--barely."
Combining multiple forces on the field against a single objective is supposedly one of the trickiest of military problems: It requires exact timing to get them all together at the same time so they aren't defeated one after the other. Sauron has three wings of his assault: a main invasion force from Minas Morgal, the Corsairs from Ubmar, and a host of orcs sweeping through and past defeated Rohan instead of expected aid. This force has now been smashed. The timing of Aragorn's challenge is unreasonably effective. As we see later, it provokes Sauron into a fatal strategic and military error with the rest of his forces. One might think it inspired.
Tuesday March 09, 2010 06:34pm EST
Baggage also the portable equipment of an army (as in "baggage train"), and also "a worthless or vile fellow" and various other insults around 1600.
My problem with the Paths of the Dead is the way, as far as I recall, we suddenly get bounced into going down them. "My way is not clear", says Aragorn. "I am going to Dunharrow" says Theoden. Later, Aragorn has seen a new threat in the Palantir and says "I will go by the Paths of the Dead". And the gate to these paths is indeed in Dunharrow, says Theoden, which is a bit of a lucky coincidence.
The only real need for the Paths to be where they are is so Aragorn and Eowyn can talk, and Theoden can later have news of them passing that way. The idea of that route could probably have been better planted; it has always struck me (maybe I am wrong) as perhaps a late idea stuck in a bit clumsily.
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday March 09, 2010 06:52pm EST · amended on Tuesday March 09, 2010 07:16pm EST
Nevertheless, the Paths remain a bit too convenient: "Look! It's a shortcut to intercept the threat I just discovered and the means to counter that threat!"
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday March 09, 2010 07:49pm EST
I think summoning the Dead was a tremendous risk. After all, their defining trait was that they were oathbreakers. What happens to Aragorn (and Gondor) if out of spite or fear the Dead decide to fail his family again? High risk, high reward.
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday March 09, 2010 09:57pm EST
PS - Viggo is not nor never was Aragorn.
Wednesday March 10, 2010 09:53am EST
Regarding Éowyn (alfoss1540 @11): In this day and age where women are admitted into the ranks of most militaries, being left behind specifically because of gender would count as a snub. However, the concept of women fighting was totally alien to the mindsets of the cultures Tolkien was portraying in his work (note Imrahil's exclamation at the end of ch. 6). Also, I find it rather difficult to sympathize with your line of reasoning: you seem to imply that since she was left behind "against her will" last time, she should be allowed to go this time around. I would daresay that a lot of the characters in the book are doing things against their wills--e.g., most of the protaganists.
Regarding the use of the palantír: Aragorn seems to have had dual motivations in looking into the stone: to turn it to his own purposes (i.e., for intelligence-gathering), as well as to draw the attention of Sauron--away from the Ringbearer, hopefully. The risks were also twofold: one, that Sauron's will might overmaster Aragorn's, and two, that the "hasty stroke" would not go astray. Just as in the beginning of Book III, Aragorn is (as has already been stated) making calculating decisions, assessing the risks involved. One also wonders if the message from Elrond had anything to do with him looking into the seeing-stone. ("H'm, Elrond's reminding me of this Paths of the Dead thing, wonder if there's any reason for it...")
Aragorn taking the Paths, however, I always chalked up to sheer desperation rather than any sort of long-formulated plan. In my opinion, Aragorn has much of the same reservations about summoning the Dead as he did about entering into Moria.
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday March 10, 2010 11:20am EST
Elaine Thom @18 argues that Gandalf could have fulfilled the prophecy regarding the death of the Witch King as easily as Eowyn and Merry. I'm not so sure of that, else any elf could have served the purpose.
The prophetic necessary also goes beyond the simple destruction of the foe. There are a number of consequences that fall out from this. Not only is the Witch King destroyed, but ultimately Aragorn's right to the kingship is demonstrated (hands of a healer, and so on) and close ties are forged between Gondor and Rohan through a semi-royal marriage.
VIEW ALL BY · Wednesday March 10, 2010 11:22am EST
Another point is that it isn't a certainty that Aragorn will even be able to ENTER the main portion of the "Paths of the Dead". After all, it had been closed for a very long time.
But when Elrond and Galadriel separately draw Aragorn's attention to the Paths, Aragorn can reasonably assume that the Paths will now be open for him.
Wednesday March 10, 2010 12:52pm EST
23 & 24 join the argum//// discussion over Aragorn, Reluctant King. I don't think he's nearly as reluctant as 23's words describe him. Yeah, he doesn't know what is best to do after Gandalf's 'death', so he waits for a sign. What he gets is at Amon Hen, when the party splits. And you're overlooking his extremely blatant announcement of his identity to the Rohirrim. IOW, as soon as possible after the sign of Amon Hen which lets him off the hook for going with Frodo to Mordor. He's not reluctant at all. He's moving to claim it as the first possible moment with Gondor's long-time allies.
VIEW ALL BY · Thursday March 11, 2010 08:07am EST
VIEW ALL BY · Thursday March 11, 2010 04:05pm EST
zunger @ #1, yes, of course it becomes clear later that the Dead could see what was on the standard; I just find the way it's described odd. But I like that the mystery made it work for you, instead of diminishing it as it did for me.
Lsana @ #2, I wonder if the Dunedain might have been a way to get Aragorn's backstory out before the Appendices, if maybe Gimli had befriended one of them? I'll be interested to see what I think of the off-stage nature of the Corsairs bit when we come to it.
Is she really acting queen, or a steward, to tie things back to earlier discussions? *goes back* Hama suggests her as the true last of the House of Eorl when Theoden would have overlooked her: "Let her be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone." Hmmm. Ambiguous. I'll also note that Rohan has no precedent for a woman ruling in her own right, unlike Gondor.
Anyway. On one hand you're right that this idea of cages is very Wormtongue, yet on the other the suggestions that Theoden stay behind are rejected by him as Wormtongue-speak, more or less, so it's not as though Wormtongue made it up out of whole cloth where the Rohirrim are concerned.
tonyz @ #3, a quick skim of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields reveals Aragorn with the Star of Elendil on his brow and no mention of a diadem. *makes a note to dig out her copy of _Unfinished Tales_*
I though the advance warning was a reference to Gondor not Rohan, which is why I got confused about Aragorn's actions which are, as you say, directed at the Corsairs.
Time-and-distance, yes, good point. And Tolkien is working hard in these first chapters at keeping us oriented in relative time and space, too, as the narrative fractures, which I appreciate because I always have a terrible time with that kind of thing.
"Gruff Old Guy Telling Frustrated Teen The Way Things Are" -- hee! I'm not sure if it makes it better or worse, from Eowyn's POV, that she doesn't know how old he is (right? I think so).
DemetriosX @ #4, right, that's what it was about Aragorn and the palantir, thanks for reminding me. And I like the connection to the mysterious knight, thanks!
Rabscuttle @ #5, thanks for the other examples of people being concerned with valour without renown. And yes, Hama's comment is in III.6, "The King of the Golden Hall". (And thanks!)
Aladdin_Sane @ #7-9: excellent about Aragorn's own "valour without renown" experience--same response as to tonyz @ #3. And I wonder if the cringe-inducing nature of her crush on Aragorn is what led me to skip right over it? Because I think most people have probably been there and done something like that and shrivel up inside at the reminder. =>
Also, thank you for the poetry discussion, I appreciate it.
pilgrimsoul @ #10, yes, absolutely. I'm taking notes on the next chapter now and while it's still excellent, adding Merry's pain to Eowyn's makes it harder going.
alfoss1540 @ #11, I'm thinking of Aragorn right now as somewhere between a pessimist and a realist. On one hand, he's been honing his skills and knowledge for decades, but on the other, during that time I can't imagine how he could see a way to his goal. So we got that odd comment early about his not thinking any good of the course--but he's still a person who's going to do a thing right if he's going to do it at all, and here that means using the palantir.
(SteelyKid is doing better, thanks, this round of congestion and fever doesn't seem to have been a bacterial infection; the congestion is still lingering a bit but now she has plenty of energy to explore the joys of separation anxiety.)
Rabscuttle @ #13, no, I don't see it as a true romance, which is partly why it's so hard to read! See my response to Aladdin_Sane @ #7-9, above.
EmmaPease @ #14, "lots more Corsairs than expected" would probably account for it.
Eithin @ #15, thanks for the Welsh poetry/assonance information.
goshawk @ #16, I would certainly *like* to believe that the standard is more than a pretty piece of fabric, but I admit it had never occurred to me before that it wasn't; I'd been attributing its effect to its content rather than it form. And I'm not sure that I still don't, but I like the idea and will keep it in mind.
Yes to Eowyn, pride, and hono(u)r.
Foxessa @ #17, thanks for the sympathy. I haven't been able to work up the fortitude to tackle _Children of Hurin_, which I know makes me a bad Tolkien reader. One of these days.
Elaine Thom @ #18, re: Gandalf & the Witch King: interesting. I have a vague recollection of someone making an argument, and I don't remember if it was here or elsewhere, that Gandalf wouldn't have been able to fulfill that prophecy for metaphysical balance reasons, but I don't remember the details. I will say that it would have been much less interesting.
And thanks for remembering that quote; it's in VI.2: "The Dark Power was deep in thought, and the Eye turned inward, pondering tidings of doubt and danger: a bright sword, and a stern and kingly face it saw, and for a while it gave little thought to other things; and all its great stronghold, gate on gate, and tower on tower, was wrapped in a brooding gloom."
Confutus @ #19, those are excellent thoguhts on the Dunedain and Elrond's sons, thank you. And d'oh, how did I miss the possibility that Sauron might've thought him the new Ring bearer? I think this even gets mentioned later on.
Nicholas Waller @ #20, EricScharf @ #21, you may well be right about the convenience of the Paths; I think this is a place where familiarity is getting in my way. (But it seems to me Aragorn is only thinking of the Paths & the Dead now because of the extreme need for speed, and would probably have gone for a corporeal force if given the opportunity--see HArai @ #22.)
Iain_Coleman @ #28, nice point about Aragorn's relationship to Gandalf, a useful little nuance here.
Thursday March 11, 2010 05:08pm EST
how did I miss the possibility that Sauron might've thought him the new Ring bearer? I think this even gets mentioned later on. Chapter of the Last Debate.
she writes helpfully.
Glad to hear your child is doing better. Been there with the clingy kid (got used to doing things in a chopped up fashion).
Thursday March 11, 2010 06:02pm EST
Besides, there's clearly *some* elven magic in the gems such that the stars of Elendil's heraldry glow as later described; it seems entirely reasonable for the message received by the dead to be rather different than the one received by the living.
Thursday March 11, 2010 06:13pm EST
Thursday March 11, 2010 08:46pm EST
The Black Banner is a device--it puzzles the reader or it did me on first reading. Eh? Black=bad--or not but then the relief and resolution of the Good Guy Symbols comes along.
@Kate I hope you and yours stay well--not entirely for selfish reasons!
Friday March 12, 2010 12:52am EST
VIEW ALL BY · Friday March 12, 2010 03:10am EST
Re:"valour without renown"
Not only Aragorn, but the Rangers too had been guarding the peoples of the Shire & surrounds for generations without recognition. It was quite telling that the Rangers had come to join Aragorn; doom is indeed near at hand.
Of the Rangers, only Halbarad was named, and he is also mentioned in coming chapter, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields". I've always wondered about the other thirty Dunedain & would have liked to have seen more of them.
VIEW ALL BY · Friday March 12, 2010 01:28pm EST
Ariels @ #31, are you talking about when the banner is unfurled at the Pelennor Fields? "And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond; and the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold." That doesn't strike me as necessarily magic; what are you interpreting differently?
revgeorge @ #32, if I ever need to know the names of Elrond's sons I will certainly come to you! =>
pilgrimsoul @ #33, thanks! I'm hoping to get a good bit written on the next post this weekend before I start pulling single-parent duty for most of next week.
SoonLee @ #35, yes, I know there are already a lot of characters but I would also have liked to get more of a sense of the Dunedain as a people.
VIEW ALL BY · Friday March 12, 2010 06:05pm EST
On the Palantir, I am trying to put things together on timeframe - Aragorn looks into the Palantir about 48 hours prior to the darkness overtaking Middle Earth. Where is Pippin a this point?
Denethor is about to go Mad - after Faramir is struck down, and while Minas Tirith is under attack. Before he goes all out cookoo, he goes up in the Tower - and looks at his own Palantir - for which we believe that Sauron shows him his demise. Might that have included seeing Aragorn in all his Glory? I had not thought that before. Something to consider while reading the next chapters.
Friday March 12, 2010 07:19pm EST
Also, the entry in the Tale of Years for March 9 (three days after Aragorn uses the Stone) contains the sentence "Darkness begins to flow out of Morder." On the same day, Gandalf and Pippin reach Minas Tirith.
As for your second paragraph, I was always under the impression that the palantíri were like long-distance videophones--useful for communication, but not exactly "crystal balls" able to see into the future (although Gandalf hints that they may be able to see into the past, somehow).
Also, based on Denethor's and Gandalf's words immediately prior to the former's demise, I assumed that for their last videoconference, Sauron just showed the Steward his amassed armies still in Morgul and Mordor proper ("To this City only the first finger of its hand has yet been stretched"), as well as the Corsair fleet heading towards Minas Tirith ("up Anduin [comes] a fleet with black sails"). Denethor's knowledge of Aragorn I took to be from off-screen debriefings from Pippin ("in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions").
kate @29 - Re: The Children of Húrin, if you've read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, you've basically read this latest book as well. Most of the book seemed to be direct quotes from either of the earlier two sources, and if I remember correctly there was only one piece of new information in TCoH.
Elaine @34 - While I agree wholeheartedly with your argument, I would like to note that the first hint that Gandalf (and the reader) gets of Saruman's treachery is that he is no longer "the White."
VIEW ALL BY · Friday March 12, 2010 10:30pm EST
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday March 13, 2010 07:24am EST
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday March 13, 2010 11:43am EST
(It also looks like Imrahil (who is "kinsman of the Steward" and revealed in Tolkien's notes to be Denethor's brother-in-law) must also have known Aragorn; he accepts his claim very quickly at a point when he could have, as the most powerful noble in Gondor and uncle to the new Steward, just said "no" and made that stick.)
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday March 13, 2010 01:51pm EST
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday March 13, 2010 08:04pm EST
I don't think your characterisation of The Children of Hurin is quite fair. Yes, the bits and pieces had almost all been published before, but The Children of Hurin pieces them together into a single compelling narrative. For me at least, this makes the story come alive far more than the previously published treatments.
It's a glimpse of what might have been, had Tolkien either lived long enough or stopped niggling long enough to put his Silmarillion legends into a definitive and accessible narrative form. I would recommend it to anyone who loves The Lord of the Rings, more so than the published Silmarillion.
Saturday March 13, 2010 09:21pm EST
In part (i) of Cirion and Eorl, there’s an account of the battle between King Ondoher of Gondor and the Wainriders. Ondoher and his elder son Artamir went to the war and both died in combat. His younger son Faramir had orders to stay in Minas Tirith to serve as regent, and indeed the law required this; but Faramir went to battle anyway in disguise, and was killed as well.
Then, in the appendix to "The Battles of the Fords of Isen", we’re told that Éomer as king reorganized the Marshals of the Mark:There’s nothing that applies directly to Rohan at the time of the War of the Ring, but the parallels are clear enough.
Sunday March 14, 2010 09:22am EDT
Monday March 15, 2010 09:44am EDT
Kate,
I'm sure he could have at least tried to block Aragorn's ascension if Gondor was anything like a historical feudal society. It's sort of a Fantasy Feudalism, however, where everyone actually obeys their liege-lord. One of the thinks I like about the books is that Tolkien, unlike so many others, actually knows a lot about the source materials he is drawing on. On the other hand, he does not let this bog the story down.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 15, 2010 11:52am EDT
Rabscuttle @ #46, fair enough. I read an interesting article--which is at home, I'll get the cite later--which points out both the intensely hierarchical nature of Tolkien's entire universe and the ways he permits movement within the hierarchy, by replacing corrupt people with the virtuous (e.g., Saruman and Gandalf) and by removing entire layers of hierarchy (Iluvatar, the Valar, and the Eldar, each in their turn). So it was something Tolkien put a lot of thought into.
Monday March 15, 2010 12:28pm EDT
Elladan & Elrohir, for their parts, devoted the next five hundred years to hunting orcs - that's the kind of attention to avenging injuries to the family that the Elves used to be famous for. But, after all, they're descended on the maternal side from the House of Finwe...
VIEW ALL BY · Monday March 15, 2010 01:15pm EDT
Wednesday April 07, 2010 01:11am EDT
It's made clear later that Éowyn doesn't really love Aragorn. Nevertheless, "you have leave to burn in the house" and "because they love thee" are two of my favorite lines.
How does Merry know, and how did Pippin know, that you offer a lord your sword to enter his service? This can't happen often in the Shire. (Unless it's how the Shirrifs are sworn in?) Maybe they've heard it in old tales told by the fireside.
The Dúnedain got a message to join Aragorn without knowing who it was from—very strange. And Legolas and Gimli conclude it was from Galadriel, though they've heard her say, "...nor in choosing between this course and another, can I prevail." I guess they know that wasn't true from the advice in her messages through Gandalf.
Aragorn not only would have to ask Thé'oden's leave for Éowyn to accompany him; he'd have to ask her brother's. Rather sexist society, Rohan.
The description of Éowyn "stumbling as one that is blind" is one of the book's POV puzzles, like the fox in the Shire, since the next sentence says no one saw her. Did she describe to Frodo later how she thought she must have looked? Otherwise, if we take Tolkien's pose as the translator seriously, Frodo or another hobbit could have added it later, or the fictional Tolkien could have added it from his imagination, like the express train.
The bit about "so deep and so narrow was that chasm that the sky was dark, and in it small stars glinted" is an ancient and untrue belief. I wonder whether Tolkien believed it.
Maybe midnight was the only time Aragorn could conjure the Dead to follow him, so if he missed that midnight he'd have to wait for the next.
I'm grateful that Tolkien didn't break the chapter at a more obvious cliffhanger, say right after Aragorn and the others go through the door and realize the Dead surround them.
Wednesday April 14, 2010 11:19am EDT
Anyone ever read anything further about this?
VIEW ALL BY · Tuesday April 27, 2010 10:50pm EDT
And you've put your finger on one of the reasons why I don't believe in Tolkien-as-translator.
I don't like the idea that Aragorn could only bind the Dead at midnight, because I didn't see that as a *binding* and indeed think it would be diminished by that; I think the Dead chose to fulfill their oath.
joyceman @ #51, I don't know what was behind the door canonically, but the first thing that leaps to mind was the Dead punishing him for entering by messing with his mind.
Saturday May 01, 2010 10:43am EDT
So Merry and Pippin knew how to swear fealty from old tales, the way we do from three-volume fantasy novels. But which of us could do it? I'd have a serious struggle with self-consciousness. It reminds me of Bergil challenging Pippin to wrestle on first meeting him. I don't remember any ten-year-old doing that—we wrestled with our friends and relatives. Maybe back in Better Times, people were bolder.
I find Tolkien the translator fascinating, maybe because the idea is so problematic. More later. (See, I can be mysterious too.)
I'm changing my theory about midnight: It was the best time for Aragorn to point out to the Dead Men that they had a good opportunity to fulfill their oath, if they chose to.
Maybe the presence of the Dead messes with people's minds whether the Dead want it to or not, unless of course the people are Aragorn and his followers.
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday May 01, 2010 02:38pm EDT
It's an interesting development. At some point the old Roman clientship merged with the Germanic Gefolgschaft (as described in Tacitus) into the Merovingian antrustiones, and over the centuries became more formalised and distant until we have a full fledged system under the Angevins that wiped out the AngloSaxon fylgd and even added some subtle changes to the Norwegian institution of ganga til hands we find in the sagas.
I won't be surprised if Tolkien delibarately showed two different ceremonies here and made the Rohan on the more sympathetic by adding another personal bond that went beyond that of a warlord and his handgengna men - the father motive. It works since Théoden is an old king and Merry still a young hobbit. We know Tolkien regretted the way the Norman invasion wiped out so much of the AngloSaxon culture.
In Gondor it's all about duty, rewards and punishment, not so much about an actual relationship.
/ Ok, I'll stop channelling my PhD here. :)
Saturday May 01, 2010 06:27pm EDT
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday May 01, 2010 06:54pm EDT
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday May 01, 2010 06:56pm EDT · amended on Monday May 03, 2010 01:29am EDT
The Dúnedain got a message to join Aragorn without knowing who it was from...
Later in the chapter: "Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred. Let the Dunedain ride to him in Rohan!" Legolas guesses that the message came from Galadriel.
I think that we can be certain they knew where or from whom the message came & it was a reliable source (otherwise why else would they have undertaken the long journey?), even if they didn't openly name their source of intelligence; they'd just met the Rohirrim after all. Loose lips and all that.
Saturday May 01, 2010 07:26pm EDT
JRRT like other folks tended to idealize Anglo-Saxon society, and being anti Norman--I'm not saying you are--makes me tired. In light of your observation I find it ironic that that Meriadoc's name is Welsh.
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday May 01, 2010 09:44pm EDT
G-Campbell @ #54, let me ask you this: I found an article, which I have literally lost and therefore have not cited in the posts and may be misremembering, that asserts that Tolkien disapproved of Pippin swearing to Denethor out of pride and the reader could tell this by the fact that Pippin was made a servant not a (technical term for what Merry is) and that his service ended not just badly but in some particular, special kind of badness. (Like I said, I lost the article.) I found this deeply peculiar, in that it simply would never have occurred to me. Does this ring any bells with you?
VIEW ALL BY · Saturday May 01, 2010 11:37pm EDT
I'll have to go back and reread the scenes, but not right now (it's 5 am). Pippin's release from service IS odd, though. Usually those relationships ended with the death of one party and had to be renewed with the heir (in the feudal system that led to hereditary fiefs in the long run). A vasall was only dismissed - and often punished - for grievious breaks of the feudal oath, like disobedience, refusal to attend upon summons, rebellion, attempts to kill the lord; or more rarely, for lack in personal conduct like cowardice in battle. That Denethor sends Pippin away could point at him perceiving Pippin to be disobedient, or maybe downright a rebel and in that case he'd have broken his oath in Denethor's POV.
VIEW ALL BY · Sunday May 02, 2010 01:06pm EDT
VIEW ALL BY · Sunday May 02, 2010 02:13pm EDT
While Théoden sends Merry away in hope to save him (and he never releases Merry from his oath), Denethor doesn't consider Pippin worthy to stay.
VIEW ALL BY · Sunday May 02, 2010 02:51pm EDT
Monday May 03, 2010 01:01am EDT
SoonLee @ #57: Right after your quotation, Gimli says, "But whence this message came they are now in doubt." Of course we don't know what caused him to say that, but it seems likely that the Rangers really didn't know, not that these pure-blooded Númenoreans, above dissembling, were pretending to be in doubt to hide the origin. They could just avoid discussing it.
And there's still a contradiction between Galadriel saying (twice) she wasn't a counselor and her giving counsel. I suspect that when Tolkien had her disclaim choosing between one path and another, he wasn't thinking how useful she could be to the plot.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday May 03, 2010 01:35am EDT
You're right, I missed it. On the face of it, it's curious.
VIEW ALL BY · Monday May 03, 2010 12:47pm EDT