Feb 22 2010 5:43pm

Wheel of Time Open Thread

The Gathering Storm has gathered (not once, but twice); Towers of Midnight is not yet upon us. Until then, is pleased to open a new open thread for all things Wheel of Time.

This space is for general conversation not related to the always amazing re-read by Leigh Butler.

As always, treat each other with respect, especially when you disagree.

Rob Munnelly
1. RobMRobM
Yes!!! Thanks to the Committee, long may it reign. Rob
Ron Garrison
2. Man-0-Manetheran
Yippee! Celebration time in the bunker!

[i][b]Thanks, Team Tor![/b]
Barry T
3. blindillusion
Thank you very much. Let the General Discussion begin!!!

Oh, Gabbly works great for light discussion.
Thomas Keith
4. insectoid

And the final count of the massive TGS Open Spoiler Thread, after 17 wks 1 day (120 days), is 5080 (counting balefired posts—Pablo even made his @5080 go poof!). I suppose Birgit will be along eventually with an updated comment count. :)

EDIT: to remove 'not'

Tina A
5. Tinaa
Ooooh, shiny and new. Let's try not to break this one...

Thanks TOR!
6. MasterAlThor
And there was much rejoicing....yay!!!!!

Tricia Irish
9. Tektonica
Champagne! Flowers! Confetti! Whooping!

Thank you Tor! You are the bestest, ever. Sqeeee. Kiss Kiss. We love you!
Rob Munnelly
10. RobMRobM
No doubt we'll get to a substantive comment by post 20 or so. R
Lannis .
11. Lannis
@ RobM: agreed.

Until then...

WA-HOO! Shiny new thread! :)
Ron Garrison
13. Man-0-Manetheran
Taimandred Theory #495823

What better way to kick off a discussion than with a Taimandred Theory? So here is mine:

RJ began writing Taim as Demandred in disguise. Unfortunately, the fan base guessed his secret ID and the cover was blown. Now that would take all the fun out of it for RJ - and us too. Imagine right now if Taim is revealed to be Demandred. Big whup. "Told 'ya." SO... RJ decides he would rather have fun, and at the first opportunity he debunks the theory and begins a new reveal for Taim. All in all, great fun was had all 'round.

Edit: First 13!
14. thepupxpert
Did I miss a re-read? I only see Part 12 on COT, didn't something come out on Friday?
Sam Mickel
15. Samadai
yes there is a 13 look inhot bookmarks you will see a saved comment from there
16. MasterAlThor

This is the general discussion thread. Where we can talk aobut anything we want. Spoilers and all.

Ben Frey
19. BenPatient
ok, so can I talk about how my visiting of has dropped off from nearly every day to once or in some rare cases twice a week since the re-read got so thoroughly scaled-back? I mean...the rest of the site has merits on its own, but honestly, I forget about it if I know there isn't going to be a re-read. Tis a bummer, man. Oh, and Demandred is Bela. And the Creator. And Rand's real father.

Since spoilers are allowed in this thread.
21. MasterAlThor

Ah the days when there where 3 post a week.


Ahem, since our fearless leader has a life (someone should look into that) she has thus determined that her ability to keep such a pace would serverly hamper her sanity.

I, for one, enjoy a sane Leigh.

Barry T
22. blindillusion
Sometimes I think that as well. After all, I've always liked the line:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist.

What better way to present Taim=Demandred than to convince us Tain isn't Demandred.

Of course, I also think Taim is just a NON-Darkfriend patsy being played by the go figure, right.

Oh, movie reference? And this time I won't give the answer away Freelancer.

edit: Oh, look who got the "last" post on the Spoiler Thread =). Should get the honor of: 1+6+(3*2)+0=13.
Ron Garrison
24. Man-0-Manetheran
Wow. I pointed out to blind that Freelancer was one of the Usual Suspects and included a link. I got flagged as spam.
Bonnie Andrews
26. misfortuona
Yeah, new post, and I mis-sed what 22 posts. Oh well that's what I get for having kids.

Thank you again TOR. This rocks.

Thomas Keith
27. insectoid
There must be a dingle ball caught in the spam filter still. Or perhaps a ten-foot pole. No offense Sub ;)

Rikka Cordin
28. Rikka
I wish I had the time/laptop to peruse this as much as I want to :(
Rob Trotter
29. shadar
You guys are all crazy. I love it. :)

What are the chances that Taim actually is Demandred - and RJ was just screwing with us. The Red/Black clothing seems to be a Moridin link, but It would be pretty funny if RJ was just flat-out lying.
John Massey
30. subwoofer
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!runs around bouncing off the new walls Lalalalalalalalala!

It's so big! There's so much room! Echo!echo echo echo

And it's sturdy too. kick!

Heh. Reminds me of my 400lbs friend Cameron on his girlfriend's raised deck-"hmmmm... This is flimsy" he said jumping up and down, the deck creeks ominously as the rest of us cling for dear life.

Thank you to the committee, Torie, Pablo and all the er... other people that care about our twitching.

Sandy Brewer
31. ShaggyBella
I think I shall call this thread the "WoTOT" in my browser link bar. Real estate is precious there.
Bonnie Andrews
32. misfortuona
The usual suspects. I knew I should know that line, but I couldn't get past thinking about Constantine.
The Usual Suspects is a great film.
And I got nothing for WOT.

Mis-going back to lurking
craig thrift
33. gagecreedlives

*Gasps* Did sub try and flush away my present?!


I would say the odds would be pretty damn small.

Although that reminds of a story involving yours truly, a girl, the phrase not until hell freezes over and the devil having to take up ice skating.
john mullen
34. johntheirishmongol
Nice to see all of you peeps again. Pretty soon the posts will be longer than the book.
Barry T
35. blindillusion
Noticed something about your post at 13.
And by being creative, 23=(1*1)3=13.

And of course that proves Taim was 13x13'd 13 Times, which without doubt means Taim is not only a Darkfriend, but that he also stole my Easter Egg when I was 8.
Ron Garrison
36. Man-0-Manetheran
I am impressed that you saw through my numeric creativity! LOL. Those numbers were generated without even looking at the keyboard. Still impressed that you made something of it!
Heidi Byrd
37. sweetlilflower
I have a WOT related question, is there anything besides Mat's medallion that can hurt the Gholam?
Heidi Byrd
38. sweetlilflower
Also, we have all dumped on the BoW storyline as being too long and that the Kin are an unneccesary addition to the plot, but RJ was too good for that. There has to be some reason why the BoW is useful and there must be a purpose to the Kin. Since you all have wwaaayyyyy crazier ideas than me, I would like to hear your theories.
Janet Hopkins
40. JanDSedai
Squee! Much squee! A new playground!

Can we now post real conversations? Or is there more squeeing to be done? Taimandred and Bela =(blank) don't really constitute a dialogue.

Crazy theories, sweetie? I'll have you know, I don't do crazy theories. Just ones that contradicted in the next book...
Bonnie Andrews
41. misfortuona
Well presumably another terangreal that disrupts the flows, like the one in the hattrick worn by SWWNBN, and ah Balefire. That's all I got.
My feeling is that the BoW may still be needed along with the song, to start the rebirth of Randland. You know the song is the sun, and the bowl is the rain or some such.
Also seeing that it is such a powerful terangreal, and it used both halves of the TP, it might also provide a key as to how sadin and sadir can be used together to seal the bore.
As for the Kin, IMO, they have served their purpose. They supplied hundreds of women who can channel, revealed the badness of the Oath Rod, and provided a possible alternative to the tower for future female channelers.

Mis-musing at three am
michaellopp lopp
42. michaellopp

This is the suggestion develop good concem.
Rob Munnelly
43. RobMRobM
I propose a survey to get this thread fully rolling.

Inspired by the last re-read discussion, where Leigh slobbered all over Swovan Night as her favorite scene in all WoT, let's ask - what is your single favorite scene or linked scenes in all WoT. Mine are linked - the Mat becoming a battle leader scenes in TFOH - starting in the tent with Lan and Asmo and then proceeding into Mat's pieces of the Battle of Carhein chapters. Talk about your paradigm shift.

44. EKMC
I'm a sucker for the Battle of Emond's Field... Although I concede that I typically have to force myself through reading Perrin's POV. Not that I don't like Perrin, but c'mon he's kindof a Debbie Downer. That might have something to do with the fact that Tarmon Gai'don approacheth? haha.
45. UK Chris
In no particular order:

1. Rand and Ingtar's conversation at the end of TGH.
2. Perrin's blacksmithing scene in TDR
3. Moiraine "I remembered how to control saidar."
4. Perrin hearing his family is dead -> marrying Faile -> the battle.
5. Definitely agree with Leigh too -- the Mat discovery scene.
6. Moiraine's letter to Rand
7. Ny heals Logain
8. Perrin and Eg racing against the crows (Eyes without Pity). I'm actually going to go off on this one for a moment. Talk about paradigm shift -- I think this scene goes pretty highly unremarked-upon, but soft-spoken Perrin (like 30 chapters into book 1) acknowledges he would mercy-kill Eg with his big scary axe!
9. Elaida's foretelling re: Rand.
10. Mat's battles in Cairhien.
11. Lan rescues Nyn in Ebou Dar
12. Elayne gets the big reveal to the Kin that she is AS.
13. Egwene gets the declaration of war approved by the SAS.
14. Pevara discovers the Black Ajah.
15. Cleansing Saidin.
16. Karede reminiscing about the Tuon and the doll.
17. The entirety of Eg's existence in the Tower in TGS
18. Mat finally asking about Tom's letter.
Rob Munnelly
46. RobMRobM
@45 - hey, you're cheating. Supposed to identify the big one, not "in no particular order...."
Marcel xxx
47. lowlandr
YAY... open thread..

to celebrate this feat I decided to go gray...

Actually I have two...
the first being the first battle in TDR, where our heroes and the Shienarians battle the trollocs; the part where Perrin called to wolfs for aid.

This scene got me hooked on fantasy. Yes, I actually started with fantasy with the Wheel of Time and yes, I started in book 3 (had no clue at the time).
I still remember standing in the bookstore holding a very big (paperback) book, very red and a sword that beamed light. A guy with a huge axe and big colloms (sp?) in the background. Black veiled archers and spearmen on the back.(BwS's eulogy was very recognisable to me; altough I don't have writingambitions)
I look for part 1 of that serie, but the bookstore didn't have it. :( Hence I bought part 3 (and 4) and been a geek eversince :)

the second is that I don't really have a favorite scene, I have a whole bunch of them. Most of them have to do with a paradigm shift, but I really enjoy well written scenes. WoT just happens to have a LOT of them.
Ellie Virgo
48. Egglie
nothing really constructive to say just wanted to register my presence on the shiny new thread.

I can't possibly say what my favourite scene is there are too many and most of them would be obvious choices but one of my favourites that probably isn't on everyones list is Verin giving egwene coriannins notes is tGH. its a lovely moment where the story opens up into thousands of possibilities that didn't exist a moment before, its one I have pondered many times.
Barry T
49. blindillusion
Favorite Arc thus far? The Mat & Tuon Arc in Knife of Dreams, which contains the Acceptance Chat/Letter Reading and the MOA Fireside Chat, but also has the “Lion on the Hill” reference (which is a huge paradigm shift IMHO), the Marriage Completion and culminates in just about everyone realizing that Yes, Mat is The Man.

I mean sure, we’ve never really seen the Deathwatch Guard in action, but I’d imagine they’re at least 5 Kinds of Badass (not many reach Mat’s 7 Kinds), and Mat manages to impress the man Furyk Karede left in charge? And they haven’t seen anything yet? MOA IMHO.

Of course, I like the whole of Mat’s Arc throughout the novels: Scamp/Rogue to Evil Plagued to the Healing to the Awakening to Realm Journeys to General+Thousands to “I impress everyone.” to Wigged Out But Still Getting It Done.

edit: Seems my firewall here at work found out about Gabbly. So, nix that at work. Sigh.
Tricia Irish
50. Tektonica

Bingo! Spoken like a true blue member of The Band. Mat is my favorite story arc, as well. Thanks!
Barry T
51. blindillusion
True member of The Band? But of course. I'm Mat's self-appointed Public Relations Specialist.
Kathy Keith
52. Babokathy
How wonderful, a fresh thread. Easy to download.

"And the Survey Says":

My favorite "linked" or common scenes are the ones which occur in Tel'aran'rhiod. Especially when Birgitte and Moghedian were still there.

I hope we get to see more of that place in the last two books; always someone interesting lurking and watching, it's very mysterious. I suspect that with the sharing of "old powers" going from Wise One to Sister to Asha'man etc., we'll see many more folks sneaking around there.

However, if I may be so bold, I have Mat-addiction, and love his battle tactics knowledge, his playful character, his coyness, he's rather sneaky and successful at pulling off weird plans; you always know he'll get out of whatever jam he gets himself into. He's the reluctant, but determined Indiana Jones kind of character.
Debbie Solomon
53. dsolo
To EKMC @44

This is one of my favorite scenes too, but try to cut Perrin some slack. He comes back to save Emond's field and finds his entire family slaughtered by Trollocs. Not just his immediate family, but the extended family too. He could have just let this crush him, but he continued on. His family's dead, he's feeling guilty over not contacting them since he left months before without saying goodbye, the Whitecloaks are after him, his whole village is doomed, the woman he loves is with him in his doomed village, something is killing the wolves in the wolf dream and everyone is looking to him for leadership. Although it's been years for us, reading these books, in the whole series only a couple of years have passed. At this point, I think it's been less than a year since Perrin left home, and he's 19-20 years old. Picture yourself at that age, going back to your hometown and having the mayor/city council say "could you run things, we're in a lot of trouble."
Birgit F
54. birgit
posting statistics TGS 1 + 2

- different spellings of usernames are counted separately
- punctuation is counted as words

top 50 posters by number of comments
username;comments;words;average words per comment
1: blindillusion;290;66521;229.0
2: Freelancer;286;69132;241.0
3: subwoofer;284;57564;202.0
4: RobMRobM;204;20806;101.0
5: Tektonica;190;36874;194.0
6: Samadai;154;11491;74.0
7: Wetlandernw;150;39158;261.0
8: insectoid;138;13295;96.0
9: alreadymad... (all);129;14007;108.0
10: Man-0-Manetheran;124;14311;115.0
11: MasterAlThor;110;15618;141.0
12: schrodinger;103;12809;124.0
13: blocksmith;101;18339;181.0
14: thewindrose;100;15503;155.0
15: misfortuona;76;9781;128.0
16: Lannis;71;12349;173.0
17: forkroot;68;15552;228.0
18: Amalisa;57;13935;244.0
19: MatHornsounder;56;7336;131.0
20: jamesedjones;49;5026;102.0
21: pattack;49;5860;119.0
22: gagecreedlives;49;5598;114.0
23: Isilel;46;15240;331.0
24: FSS;40;3867;96.0
25: J.Dauro;40;5705;142.0
26: toryx;39;8679;222.0
27: Nightbaron;38;6258;164.0
28: darth.agilus;37;6594;178.0
29: birgit;36;7127;197.0
30: violetdancer;33;4441;134.0
31: BillinHI;32;5215;162.0
32: lbrown;32;6171;192.0
33: Planeswalker;31;4248;137.0
34: The Not So Dark One;30;3211;107.0
35: bad_platypus;30;4777;159.0
36: Randalator;30;5267;175.0
37: Silvertip;30;4939;164.0
38: cambosabe;29;4757;164.0
39: sps49;29;4446;153.0
40: Bouke;29;6339;218.0
41: Shimrod;26;1946;74.0
42: tenkuu;25;9283;371.0
43: R.Fife;24;4390;182.0
44: Seamus1602;23;5138;223.0
45: Longtimefan;23;7030;305.0
46: PeteP;21;2509;119.0
47: Aye Aye Sedai;20;5288;264.0
48: Alisonwonderland;19;3710;195.0
49: GatheringStorm;18;1365;75.0
50: First Selector;18;2220;123.0

top 50 posters by number of words
username;words;comments;average words per comment
1: Freelancer;69132;286;241.0
2: blindillusion;66521;290;229.0
3: subwoofer;57564;284;202.0
4: Wetlandernw;39158;150;261.0
5: Tektonica;36874;190;194.0
6: RobMRobM;20806;204;101.0
7: blocksmith;18339;101;181.0
8: MasterAlThor;15618;110;141.0
9: forkroot;15552;68;228.0
10: thewindrose;15503;100;155.0
11: Isilel;15240;46;331.0
12: Man-0-Manetheran;14311;124;115.0
13: alreadymad... (all);14007;129;108.0
14: Amalisa;13935;57;244.0
15: insectoid;13295;138;96.0
16: schrodinger;12809;103;124.0
17: Lannis;12349;71;173.0
18: Samadai;11491;154;74.0
19: misfortuona;9781;76;128.0
20: tenkuu;9283;25;371.0
21: toryx;8679;39;222.0
22: MatHornsounder;7336;56;131.0
23: birgit;7127;36;197.0
24: Longtimefan;7030;23;305.0
25: rothaar;6710;12;559.0
26: darth.agilus;6594;37;178.0
27: Bouke;6339;29;218.0
28: Nightbaron;6258;38;164.0
29: lbrown;6171;32;192.0
30: pattack;5860;49;119.0
31: J.Dauro;5705;40;142.0
32: gagecreedlives;5598;49;114.0
33: Chriscot;5354;18;297.0
34: Aye Aye Sedai;5288;20;264.0
35: Randalator;5267;30;175.0
36: BillinHI;5215;32;162.0
37: Seamus1602;5138;23;223.0
38: jamesedjones;5026;49;102.0
39: Silvertip;4939;30;164.0
40: bad_platypus;4777;30;159.0
41: cambosabe;4757;29;164.0
42: Wolfmage;4617;13;355.0
43: Adrian Sedai;4554;13;350.0
44: sps49;4446;29;153.0
45: violetdancer;4441;33;134.0
46: R.Fife;4390;24;182.0
47: Planeswalker;4248;31;137.0
48: AlmenBunt;4111;14;293.0
49: kab1;4077;18;226.0
50: Helen;4060;17;238.0

There were 650 different usernames. 366 posted only once (including many alreadymad...).
Marcus W
55. toryx
dsolo @ 53:

I think you've made some excellent points about Perrin. That's why I don't blame him for freaking out about Faile: It's not just that she's his wife and that he loves her; she's the only thing else she's got left in the world that he belongs to. His family is dead, his old friends are either becoming over powerful egomaniacs (Rand) or treating him like nobility, his home isn't remotely recognizable and treat him like someone he doesn't see...

With Faile gone, he's got nothing to stand on anymore. That sort of adriftness is not such a big deal for some people (me, for example) but it's huge for him.

No wonder he freaks out and becomes Mr. Tunnel-vision.
56. Doorman
Thanks; Rob. and Team Tor.

And Thank-You All.
kevin smith
57. WoTaBoOk
toryx & dsolo

Agreed. I definetley can't say that Perrin is a favorite. But I do empathise with him. As a person who is 20/21 years old I don't know what I'd do if I went home after a long journy to find my mother, father, siblings, cousins... everyone, dead. On top of that deadling with all the responsibility and adjusting to his new abilities. It goes a long way in showing his charactor in how he handled that. Which BTW, does not even include losing the last family member he has to the Shaido, hunting her down, and dealing with Mr. Crazy Prophet.

Personally, my head would explode all over the inside of the bunker...
58. Doorman
A Thought:

I hope we dont loose the 2 threads. I was kind of thinking it would be fun to go back and read some of the blogs and speculation just before T.O.M. is released.
59. sizzlerspack33
I'd say my favorite was when Lan coached up Rand before his meeting with the Amyrlin and the subsequent interaction with Siuan. Classic Lan before he got all mushy for Nynaeve ;). Rand was still finding himself ie, not a psycho and he steps up and handles himself with aplomb while facing the "most powerful" person in the world. In hindsight, what really makes me enjoy this is the foreshadowing of how futile AS attempts at manipulating our heroes really are.

We have a reasonable, intelligent, and powerful Amyrlin in Siuan who is thrown completely off balance by a farm boy to the point she's actually afraid/wary of him. Already they are trying to "nudge/guide" Rand where he needs to go. We all know how that works out!!!

12 books, thousands of characters, plenty of opportunities for enlightenment and we have 2 (count 'em) 2 people who have "figured" Rand out.

Yeesh no wonder he almost destroyed the world!!
60. Doorman

My fave; Dumai,s Wells.

Everybody has a fun time in this scene.
kevin smith
61. WoTaBoOk
One of my favorites is when Lan and Rand go all Ninja assassin in Far Madding.
kevin smith
62. WoTaBoOk
Another favorite is when Mat completely destroyes two blademasters. (Gawyn and Galad(SP)) Oh ya, and he could barely stand at the time. Frickin MoA!
Bonnie Andrews
63. misfortuona
I go all gooey inside whenever Mat's on screen, so it's tough to pick a favorite. I really like the interaction between him and Tuon. So I guess the whole arc between them.
And also I love Mat in tGS. For me he just gets to be more of what I love most about him.

Mis-did I remember to say I love Mat.
64. MasterAlThor
So on brigit's list I am just outside the top 10 in number of post and I am in the top 10 for number of words.

WHOOO HOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!


With 3 places to post and little chatroom I may fail college.

Needs a 12 step program
65. MasterAlThor

Since we where all going off about SWMNBN, and my personal rant about Nynaeve, I came up with something.

Should Rand's hand been blown off? What was the proximity of Nyn and that woman to Rand?

Shouldn't the fireball have been unwoven?

I must go back and read.


Edit: Must give props to Cumadrin for this question. He actually came up with it.
Bonnie Andrews
67. misfortuona
Okay, everybody the trouble you can get into around here.
So here it goes, most of us have made it plain how we feel about our Mat, but we've been wondering over in Gabbly land about just how many people love MAT.

One hand up for me.
Good question by the way.

Mis-Playing along.
68. MasterAlThor
I would think it would be obvious....

And of course it is a good question. MAT thought of if.


I'm a baaaad boy


Come on people show the love...
Barry T
69. blindillusion
…. ¨

º = Rand
° = Min
¬ = Semirhage

Hmm, well MAT, as to your pondering at 65. If the characters were aligned as such, which is how I always kind of saw them (for some reason), then SWMNBN would have had to of been standing directly in front of Rand to quell the fireball, i.e. SWMNBN was closer to Semirhage than Rand…and perhaps her Weave Disrupting Ter’angreal doesn’t broadcast from the rear. =Þ

IOW…don’t really know. Just wanted to map out that diagram.

edit: Sorry Mis. I suppose you could say this is the moment Semirhage fires.
Also: Not to Scale. =)

edit2: Second Mis. MAT's the greatest.

edit3: Perhaps the Mask of Mirrors was disrupted because it was a tied off weave surrounding Semirhage. But the fireball was not disrupted because it was not aimed specifically at SWMNBN.
Bonnie Andrews
70. misfortuona
I always pictured Semi right next to Rand, and just a step or two ahead. Doesn't Rand step in front of Min though, so maybe just a little farther from Semi.

Mis- darned kid's hidden my books again.
71. MasterAlThor
But see the problem with that is that Semi's disguise was disrupted first.

So by all rights the fireball should have been too.


And where's the love, man???
Barry T
72. blindillusion
I don't really see the Spoiler Threads going away, but it's still a good point. I'll be saving them to my computer once I get home.

Edited my post at 69 to address points stated by Mis(70) and MAT(71).

And hmm, #1 on one list and #2 on the other. Of course, if Freelancer didn't have other concerns...Wow...imagine how far ahead he'd be. Still...the view is nice from the top. =Þ
Tricia Irish
73. Tektonica

Sorry, been very busy around the computer (actually working!) instead of enjoying our new GD home.

Sending the love to Mat and you too M.A.T.! Proud to be a card carrying member of The Band, organized a couple of threads ago by MOM, when he got his shiny new avatar. Sign right up peeps, there's lots of fun about to begin for our boy.


Nice Perrin defense. I've been kind of down on him for his love for Ms. Crazy Pants and all his EMOness, but you're right....he has good reason for clinging to her, and has soldiered on remarkably.

About the spoiler thread....don't they have archives here, or something? A reread pre-ToM is a great idea, but I don't want to store all those bits on my computer.....ideas?

I'm going to have to become more succinct....embarrassing number of words.
74. Jormengrund
So I've got a really, REALLY kind of out-there theory..

What if it wasn't Semirhage who fireballed Rand's hand?

I mean, there are still a few other Forsaken out there, and it could've been someone wanting to cause damage to Rand without drawing attention to themselves.. Anyone want to guess Demandred's still going strong??

Anyway, just my two cents here..
Barry T
75. blindillusion
Don't have my books, but from Encyclopaedia WoT:
At the manor house six sul'dam and six damane come out followed by a short, dark woman. Nynaeve detects that one of them is channeling; Cadsuane can do something about it when they get a little closer.(3) As they approach the small dark woman flickers. Rand and Lews Therin both recognize Semirhage and fight for saidin. While they are fighting, Semirhage throws a fireball at Rand. It destroys the Dragon Scepter and blows off his left hand.
Note (3): Cadsuane apparently has a ter'angreal that disrupts weaves at close proximity. Is this the one Setalle Anan refers to in KoD,Ch7?
Don Barkauskas
76. bad_platypus
I may be parsing this too much, but Cadsuane says "But I can do something about it when we get closer" and the Illusion gets unwoven while they're still some distance away. That implies to me that the ter'angreal she's using requires active use, rather than the passive (and automatic) defense that Nynaeve's provides. The fireball would then have come too fast to be disrupted by Cadsuane, and it's clear from Alivia's battle with Cyndane in WH that Nynaeve's ter'angreal only disrupts things in extremely close proximity to the wearer; the weave unravels just before getting to Alivia.

Alternatively, Nynaeve's ter'angreal may work just like Cadsuane's, but Nynaeve doesn't know how to do so. This seems less likely to me, since we know Cadsuane has been teaching Nynaeve how to use Nynaeve's set.

Edited to add: More evidence that Cadsuane's ter'angreal is selective: it doesn't disrupt Nynaeve's weaves to hide her channeling ability.
77. Freelancer
So, there's no place like this place, so this must be the place.

I'll try just listening for awhile, and ease my way into things. If we're careful about it, this thread might just become the premiere location for WoT theorizing.
Tess Laird
78. thewindrose
What a wonderful opportunity this is. I concur with Freelancer's thought; If we're careful about it, this thread might just become the premiere location for WoT theorizing.

I am not saying there shouldn't be any of our shenanigans going on, I participate in them myself, but this could be the 'reboot' of the past sites that are no longer with us(although we have some of those participants!)

Marcus W
79. toryx
I'm with thewindrose @ 78 and Freelancer at 77. Given that load times and posting shenanigans occur more often as threads get overpopulated, and we've been asked (rather gently) not to break this one too soon, it seems like a good idea not to abuse the space.

Re: Posting stats. I'm lower than usual, but considering how I didn't make a single post to the first TGS spoiler thread, my position at 26/21 is pretty darned respectable.

Re: The weirdness with Cadsuane's (I'm not afraid to use her name!) ter'angreal: I strongly suspect that it doesn't work quite the way most people seem to assume.

I think one of the dangly ter'angreals alerted her that the Faux Tuon was channelling, which she obviously shouldn't have been, and Cadsuane immediately took conscious steps to disrupt the illusion. Neither she or anyone else had time or material available to disrupt the fireball weave though.
Bonnie Andrews
80. misfortuona
Well I was sort of embarassed, and really surprised, to see my numbers up where they are, but MAT insisted I shouldn't be. Then I realized that Tek didn't start posting THAT long before me and she's way higher so that made me feel better.
Thanks Tek, love to hear from you:) Waves

Re the Hairnet
Time I think is the key. There just wasn't the opportunity to do anything in response to the fireball. That seems to lend credence to the idea that the ter'angreal is not on automatic pilot like Mat's. Which is to be expected I guess. They are different after all.

Mis-yeah me 15/19 Hey if you add those together and invert them you get... oh never mind
Thomas Keith
81. insectoid
Birgit @54: Woo hoo, I'm in the top 10! :) Well done, Birgit.

Blind @69: Nice diagram! Wasn't imagining it that way myself.

Free @77 & Wind @78: Unless it reaches 5000 comments before November. ;D Careful? Um... yeah, I agree. But it'll be hard.

Mis-answer @80: Blind might say you should try (9*5)-5+(1+1) ;)

Sam Mickel
82. Samadai
@77, 78, 79

well I guess I won't be welcome here anymore.
Luke M
84. lmelior
Something new, perhaps...

So is everybody aware of the WoT video games? I remember hearing about them awhile back, but recently it was announced that Obsidian is going to be working with Red Eagle Entertainment to make games based on the books as well as an MMORPG. Now this is both exciting, because I have enjoyed Obsidian games in the past, and sad because my hopes of pitching a video game demo to Harriet and gang are dashed. I doubt Red Eagle would be pleased with a fan/indie game. So without further ado, here are some excerpts of my shelved single-player WoT RPG design document (with apologies for the length):

The second phase places the player as an initiate in the recently completed White Tower in Tar Valon, circa 200 AB. She has learned control, but depending on the outcome of phase one may need to break her block. The first training sequence will include local training in each of the seven Ajah's specialties* (see Ajah tasks). The second is when the player enters the Oval Ring ter'angreal and completes the 100 weaves. The raising ceremony does not include any oaths, as they have not been put into practice yet. The chosen Ajah, as well as performance in the Ajah-specific training sessions, affect the player's statistics and abilities.

* Perhaps this could be used to separate Novices and Accepted, as the Three Rings ter'angreal was not discovered until the Trolloc Wars, over 800 years later. Accepted would be the ones performing the tasks, Novices would be considered not ready to handle the tasks.

The player travels with a young Eharoni adventurer sent to investigate the disappearance of a ship carrying unspecified cargo to Iman (turns out to be a bribe to the King of Safer to attack Manetheren while Eharon attacks Aelgar (see Battle of Midean's Ford). They come across the lone survivor, driven insane and muttering about what the player discovers to be the Tower of Ghenjei on the eastern outskirts of Manetheren. The Eharoni visits the Eelfinn and the player visits the Aelfinn (see Gifts from Finnland). The Eharoni turns out to be the closest friend of Prince Maecine, who adopts the man as his brother thanks to one of the gifts from the Eelfinn. One of the other items, a flute, becomes a prized artifact of Eharon and is the inspiration behind the Procession of Flutes during Eharon's Blessing of the Swords. The last item, a hint about the Horn of Valere, sparks the tradition of Hunters of the Horn setting out from Illian.

Jaramide: located in Saldaea and Arad Doman. Ruled by High Queen Egoridin at the Compact of the Ten Nations. Circa 325 AB Comaelle was High Queen and Sereine dar Shamelle Motara was her Counsel-Sister. Sereine wrote "Commentaries on the Karaethon Cycle" at roughly the same time that Mangore Kiramin was translating it into the Common Tongue. A Brown player would travel back and forth between Deranbar and Mafal Dadaranell to discuss the prophecies with Sereine and Mangore. Two of the seals are found in this area (one from a merchant by Bayle Domon, the other from a farmer by Taim), so it is possible the seals were all here after the Strike at Shayol Ghul and before being scattered by the surviving Aes Sedai. The farmer claimed he descended from the kings and queens of this era, so Comaelle will have close ties with farming families and express a desire to join them.
Deranbar = Maradon - capital, waygate
Allorallen = Bandar Eban
Barsine - its fall began the Trolloc Wars - probably located in the foothills of the Mountains of Dhoom.
Canaire'somelle, Nashebar - unknown locations, unlikely to appear.

What do you guys think? WoT history is simultaneously rich with detail and flexible enough to allow for a great deal of creativity. I had a lot of fun putting together the scant information into plot points that hardcore WoT fans would appreciate.
Tess Laird
85. thewindrose
Samadai - Don't be silly, we love your stories, and I did have a good chuckle at your 'naughtiness'!;) I just think it would be cool to be a part of something I missed out on before.(And with the re-read, and all the other goodies TOR has for us, I feel like I am part of it now.) Of course we are going to have surveys and lots of fun - would most of us be here if it was all serious theory??

So, anyways, bring on the theories - looney and serious!!

John Massey
86. subwoofer
Hmmmmmmmmm favorite scene?

The first has to be the Sounding of the Horn. Such a pivotal scene. The world was not flat after that.

A close second is Lan- the Golden Crane. Awww cmon, gotta love the big goon;)

Then there is Rand and Lan in Far Madding. That was beyond words. Beautifully written, powerful image.

Just out of medal contention was the scene that sizz referred to, Rand getting all growed up and facing the Amrylin. That scene is interchangeable with the seen where Rand has a rush audience with Morgase after just falling over the garden wall. He is standing there and Cranky Pants drops the bomb that Rand has a Heron marked blade. The immediate reaction made blademasters a hot commodity and cemented in my mind how dear it is earn the sword. Tam, Rand, Lan- instant awesome.

And thank you Birgit for dropping those stats. See? I'm not the wordiest one here. Not even close...

Bonnie Andrews
87. misfortuona
Thanks I’ll take it.

I'm with thewindrose. We'd miss you if you weren't here, and I like some shenanigans, and a little bit of naughtiness

Mis-numerically challenged
Alice Arneson
88. Wetlandernw
@70-something, multiple, Re: Cadsuane's paralis-net effect... I was wondering if perhaps Semirhage's illusion, being a weave designed to affect everyone around, was disrupted pretty much as soon as it tried to affected the wearer of the net; i.e. almost as soon as Cadsuane saw her - or at least looked directly at her. The fireball, being a more specific, directional weave, may have been unaffected because the weave itself didn't come close enough to Cadsuane's net. This would also be consistent with the way Alivia's defensive toy worked in the Cleansing - since she was the target, it unravelled when it got near her.

IIRC, Cadsuane's net doesn't stop people from channeling near her, does it? The only thing I've found so far is that the "intertwined golden crescents" becomes cool when someone channels nearby, very much like Mat's medallion. If it is like, this would indicate that it doesn't dissolve all weaves in the vicinity, but only those that are directed at the wearer.

Did that make sense? This could be disproved, or at least reduced in credibility, if there's a scene where someone (Elayne or Nynaeve, probably) is using an Illusion and it works on Mat as well as everyone else. I don't have the book handy nor the time to search for said scene; does anyone remember?
Alice Arneson
89. Wetlandernw
P.S. Much as I love the craziness here, I think we'd go a long way toward keeping our shiny new thread functional if we avoided some of the shenanigans. Not all of them, of course, but in the interests of keeping load times from getting out of hand, we could try to be a little careful about it. I promise... I'll try... Although with the numbers up there as evidence, I'm not sure that's worth much. ;)

BTW - Thanks, birgit! I see I slipped down off the podium this round. Hmmmm.... I wonder if that's good or bad? Just RL getting in the way, I suppose.
Bonnie Andrews
90. misfortuona
I also don't have the book, but doesn't Mat see them, in disguise, in one of the upcoming chapters. I might be wrong, but I think he comments on now knowing how they got by them.
Might just be old age messing with my memory.

Tricia Irish
91. Tektonica
Wow. That was impressive. Maybe Obsidian needs someone like yourself, who is obviously very up on the archaic WOT history to fill in details! Call 'em! I didn't know half of the references you mentioned, but then, I've not read all the resource material either.

Your theory about Cads doo-dads seems plausible. I have one question...if the moon thingys get cool when someone channels nearby, how does she feel them, if they're dangling from her head? Wouldn't they have to touch her skin somehow? Maybe they are barrettes. (Not the dangly mobile thing that Foghorn was wearing...and I truly kind of always pictured.)
92. alreadymadwithwordcount
darn... did not make it to top 10 on number of words...
and it has to be my least favorite parts coming up..

big effin' deal

toryx @79
I don't think Cads even knew her do-dads could do what it did. My impression of the narrative is that she was as surprised as Semirhage was.
Ron Garrison
93. Man-0-Manetheran
Favorite scene? Oh, there are waaaay too many, so I'll offer my favorite scene that the fewest people have probably read:
Moiraine's bonding of Lan at the end of New Spring is a very beautiful and moving lump-in-throat moment.

The P-Net: I don't have a reference but I feel pretty confident that somewhere they were described as stuck in her hair bun - and dangling.
Heidi Byrd
94. sweetlilflower
Hmmm...way too many favorite scenes...but one noone else has mentioned is when Egwene confesses her toh to the WOs b4 she leaves for Salidar. Definitely when I started really liking Egs.
95. NerveAgent
Hi folks. I'm a newbie to the series...I've read all of the books and some of the fan discussion, and on finishing TGS an idea/prediction came to mind that I'd like to share. I apologize if this is somewhat off-topic, if the scenario has already been discussed, or if there is an aspect of the canon that would preclude it from being possible, but picture this:

Sometime in the next book, Nynaeve is kneeling over Lan's body (as per Min's viewing), overcome with grief. Her anguish is particularly wrenching because in spite of the healing skills that she is so proud of, she was unable to save her own husband. But just as the last speck of life is about to vanish from Lan's body, his eyes fly open and he gasps, "Moiraine!" because at that very instant, Thom and Mat pull the Blue Sister out of Finnland. But now, Moiraine is insanely powerful, having received Lanfear's level of power due to the latter's inferior bargaining skills with the Eelfinn. With the warder bond now restored, all that energy surges into Lan, bringing him back from the brink of death.

Once Nynaeve realizes what just happened, any lingering resentment she harbors for Moiraine vanishes: instead of standing between Lan and Nynaeve, Moiraine has just given Lan back to her.

Anyway, I think this would be a poetic way to reconcile Moiraine's return with the other two characters, both of which were strongly linked to Moiraine in earlier books: Lan through the warder bond, and Nynaeve through her old simmering hatred. It would very elegantly resolve - in a single instant - all of the tension that had existed in that triangle prior to Moiraine's disappearance.

Of course, it does rest on the assumption that the bond can be restored, and that Moiraine is more powerful upon return. I think the latter is a pretty safe bet; as a deus ex machina (in a positive sense), the Moiraine character will need to be somehow different to justify her return to the story, and to compensate fans for her absence. two cents. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
Joseph Blaidd
96. SteelBlaidd
Hmmm Favorite Scene.

Far Snows Dance, followed by the courtship of Matrim Couthon, followed by my newest favorites, Rand explaining about climbing the mountain and Egwene in the Tower.
Janet Hopkins
97. JanDSedai
Re: NerveAgent @95--
I don't think it will happen that way...Although I have said that Moiraine will either be stilled or be crazy strong, I don't think the bond will come back. Also, the switching strength with Lanfear has been pretty much discredited. But..
There's no hard reason it couldn't work like that. I personally think that Moiraine will be stilled, and Lan will die. But hope not, and your scenario would be a way out.

So go ahead and sign in to My World (top right corner of this page) and we'll talk about this more!

Moiraine and Thom to rule in Cairhien
Caraline & Darlin for Tear
Galad for Amadicia
Who else?
Jay Dauro
98. J.Dauro
NerveAgent @95
JanDSedai @97

And I don't believe it is said anywhere that the benefits that a Warder receives from the bond are related to the strength of the AS. Lan is bonded to Myrelle, and so will get the benefits there.

I believe Lan may die, but only so Nyneave has to learn how to heal death. We have seen prophecy that they will continue after the LB.

Galad will not rule in Amadicia, he will go back to Mayene with that woman.
Birgit F
99. birgit
I was wondering if perhaps Semirhage's illusion, being a weave designed to affect everyone around, was disrupted pretty much as soon as it tried to affected the wearer of the net; i.e. almost as soon as Cadsuane saw her - or at least looked directly at her. The fireball, being a more specific, directional weave, may have been unaffected because the weave itself didn't come close enough to Cadsuane's net.

I don't think it works that way. The Illusion would have to be a kind of mental control directed at everyone seeing it, but it is described as a weave around the body of the disguised person. When Moiraine uses the Invisibility ward in EotW she explains that it diverts the light around the camp.
Rob Munnelly
100. RobMRobM
Moiraine and Thom will have no interest in ruling and Mayene is not enough to hold the combined gorgeousness of Galad and that woman; they will reign in Carhien, happily.
Jay Dauro
101. J.Dauro

combined gorgeousness of Galad and that woman


But I don't think you can get that woman to give up Mayene. So they will have to have an AS advisor who can travel, so they can go back and forth, I guess.
103. junior1234
My fav scene is definately Nyn healing Logain.
There is such a great "OH S*&T" feeling to Nyn's dialog and actions there.

As for the discussion on the weavebreaking toys that Cad and Nyn have, i never really got the impression that they were all-powerful or anything. If one of the forsaken hits you with a full blast fireball, is that thing really going to save you? I always figured it had limits, the same as the angreal do. Throw enough voodoo at it, and it will be overwhelmed.
104. alreadymadwithgaladtravel
J.Dauro @101
Or Galad can learn to channel. He seems to have it on both sides of the family after all.
Barry T
106. blindillusion
Linda, of 13thD fame, has written an amazing amount of awesomely awesome articles regarding WoT. This one about Moridin…as Taim…is perhaps my favorite.

In fact, it has changed my view of Taim completely and caused me to add a new theory line to the What’s What with the Dastardly Deeder that is the M'Hael. So, here’s the New List:

1) The M’Hael±Moridin=Rand’s Screwed Theory

2) The Taim is WoT’s biggest Patsy and is being played every which way by the Shadow. (Poor Guy…being the Chump of the World.)

3) The The Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled Theory. (Pretty much: What better way to present Taim=Demandred than to convince us Tain isn't Demandred.)

Wonder if any will turn out to be correct.

Bonnie Andrews
107. misfortuona
I've often thought about the possibility of Galad having the ability. Not a sparker I guess, but I'm sure he could learn.
I think there's a conflict in there somewhere though.

Sam Mickel
108. Samadai

I am beginning to suspect that you are Linda and the 13th depositories public relations department. Not that there is anything wrong with that, because I agree with you about both. :D
Don Barkauskas
109. bad_platypus
Tektonica@91: From tPoD, Ch. 12:
" made no move to embrace the Source herself. One of her dangling hair ornaments, intertwined golden crescents, was cool at her temple."
So that one, at least, is in contact with her temple.
Matthew Smith
110. blocksmith
Favorite scene...very difficult. There are truly so many that jump out at me when I think about this subject...

Moiraine pushing Lanfear through the doorway, Dumai's Wells, The battle with the Trollocs in the Tower, Nyn healing Logain, Rand and Avi Travelling to Seanchan, The capture of Moghedien/Balefiring of Rahvin, Uno's last stand, Rand reliving his ancestors lives in Rhuidean, Rand and Semirhage and the bands, Tuon Mat marriage/battle, Mat's battle with the Gholam/Nalesean's death, cleansing Saidin...way too many.

Still one of my favorites is Rand declaring himself the Car'a'carn then battling Asmodean. A very well written scene that I know caught me by surprise and still resonates.
Matthew Smith
111. blocksmith
And Birgit@54

Thanks again for compiling the information...interesting to get some perspective on the my commenting habits.
Juan Avila
112. Cumadrin
i always chuckle at no one mentioning the gleeman Natael returning with Rand through the Skimming Gateway to Rhuidean for no apparent reason, with no explanation given. ever.
Matthew Smith
113. blocksmith

Ahh...but Moiraine knew, she just kept it to herself...MOA sneaky AS that she is/was/is.
Debbie Solomon
114. dsolo
I'd like to introduce a new topic. Does anyone have any thoughts about the important element that showed up between books 4-6 that fandom has apparently missed.

The only thing that came to mind for me was something to do with Shara. RJ kept throwing in little hints, like Graendel's "pets" and much later, the guy trying to sell silkworms. Surely, that's not just filler. Any comments?
Debbie Solomon
115. dsolo
Almost forgot my other theory, but I think this has been discussed on the boards, concerning Verin and Cadsuane.

Is there some signifigance to something that happened 70 years ago, and the fact that they are both from Far Madding?
Ron Garrison
116. Man-0-Manetheran
NerveAgent @95:
Wow! Cool! I've always had a feeling that RJ had some reason for delaying the passing of Lan's bond to Nynaeve. An author can make anything happen whenever he wants to make it happen. But he hasn't. It's like the second shoe waiting to drop. I get poo-poo'd, but you have shown how there is great dramatic potential still unleashed. Sure, it may not happen exactly as you described, but I do like what you wrote!
Sam Mickel
117. Samadai
I am not a 100% sure, but I think it is only Verin that references 70 years ago. That of course is when she Had to join the Black Ajah.
Scott Terrio
118. Renegade248
About the thing that we all missed between books 4-6:

I believe it has to do with what was in the white tower when Nyneave and Elayne were searching with need for something to help Rand, and finally discovered the Bowl of the Winds. At first, they stepped into the storeroom at the white tower, and said, oh we will never find anything here to help Rand without ever really trying to figure out what drew them there, and then searched with need again and discovered the BoW in Ebou Dar. That missing thing is probably in the white tower and it could help rand maybe deafeat the Dark One?? Discuss.
Luke M
119. lmelior
@Renegade248 #118

That would be LOC Chapter 13. Here is the re-read post for that one:

Were they searching for something that would help Rand, or something to stop the rebels from going back to Elaida? I thought I remember it being the former as you do, but that post suggests the latter.
Jonathan Riefler
120. Cansupes
It's a little bit of a mix, really. They're looking for something that would tie the rebels to Rand, theorizing that a good choice would be a ter'angreal that nobody knows how to use. The problem is, the Tower had the biggest collection of such items, and they didn't want to draw the rebels back to Elaida. So they restart the search, specifying that what they need won't be found in Tar Valon.

And yes, I've also always wondered what they would have found in the Tower storerooms.
Scott Terrio
121. Renegade248
lmelior @ 119

Hmmm, interesting. I am following Leigh's re-read and have been since the beginning, but must of skipped over that part where she says it is to help the rebels. From what I remember, it was something to help rand, but I could be wrong. I will check my copy of LoC tonight when I get home from work to see what they were trying to discover.

Edit. I see cansupes @ 120 got there before me. Ok, so it is a little bit of both. Now my theory may be shot down :). Oh well.
Alice Arneson
122. Wetlandernw
Waaaayyyyy too much to comment on at once!! So I'll start at the end and work back...

Renegade248 @118 - FWIW, their "Need" was focused on a way to convince the Hall not to go back to Elaida. (Chapter 13, "Under the Dust") That said, Need did take them to the *angreal stores in the Tower, most likely the stash of ter'angreal no one knew how to use. This actually could be a serious contender for The Big Clue, because not only do we have a few more references to *angreal of unknown usage, we now have Aviendha with a Talent for determining the use of unknown ter'angreal. The only question is whether this is the first mention of said "stash" - or at least, whether it was mentioned before Book 4. Anyone want to search....? (Too bad we can't use Need to find things in the books!)

Note also that in the step before the stash, they ended up near Egwene. She might actually have been an answer as well.

dsolo@115 - I did some searching and couldn't find anything about Cadsuane and seventy years ago. The only obvious link between them is the Far Madding connection, but I sometimes suspect there may be more, possibly to be revealed in Verin's book?

On Cadsuane's ornaments... I found these two quotes from RJ's blog:
- For Krassos, yes, a channeler could still channel wearing Mat’s amulet. Cadsuane has one much like it.

- For kcf, one of Cadsuane’s ornaments is a ter’angreal that can interfere with weaves. That is how she was able to disrupt Semirhage’s use of Illusion.

I suppose it's possible that she interfered with the illusion weave but couldn't react quickly enough to interfere with the fireball. FWIW, Terez infers (but I don't know the basis for the inference) that Cadsuane probably has to touch the weave-breaker with her fingers to activate it.

Personally, even though I don't know the mechanism, I still wonder if the disruption has to do with the general vs. specific target of the weave. As near as I can determine, RJ wasn't very specific about the Illusion weave; the closest he got to a definition was that it was "related to" the Folded Light (a.k.a. invisibility) weave.
John Massey
123. subwoofer
Backsliding on Lent already people?

On the other line...

Have we looked under all the rocks?

Who is out there that could do the most harm where it is least expected?

I am thinking we need to gather everyone in the library and give them the once over for alibis for books 4-6. Who could really putz things up? And who just appeared out of the blue in those books?

Sandy Brewer
124. ShaggyBella
The Horn of Valere is in Tar Valon, somewhere. Maybe that would be of help.

Also one of Cadsuane's best features: she causes Lews Therin to run away in fright.
Sandy Brewer
125. ShaggyBella
A random peak inside Mat's brain:
(Love it.)

"Well,I suppose nobody lives forever," Noal sighed, retrieving his bamboo pole and basket. Burn him, but the fellow could make a colicky goat seem cheerful! Petra's frown certainly deepened. Married men always seemed to be worried, one reason Mat was in no hurry himself. As Noel vanished around the corner of the canvas wall, the one-eyed man watched the fish go regretfully. He appeared to be another without a full set of wits. He probably had a wife somewhere.
John Massey
126. subwoofer
'K several things here...

can you get into the ToG by writing stuff on the walls and saying "Open Sesame"?

Is the actual door to the ToG on the tower or is it in another world, or worse?

And Elaida... why did she ditch Morgase shortly before Rhavin pulled a mind meld on Mor, and why was there no rescue? Suffa must have left some er... spys behind to keep tabs on her queen.

John Massey
127. subwoofer
Ahhhhhh, found it!
Running a green-gloved hand across the top of her head, she sighed, "Toy, Toy," She murmured, resettling the cowl of her cloak. "How many children's tales do you believe? Do you believe that if you sleep on Old Hob's Hill under a full moon, the snakes will give you true answers to three questions, or that foxes steal people's skins and take the nourishment from food so you can starve to death while eating your fill?"

This is what I was talking about when I suggested that the entrance to the Tower of Genjhi was at Shayol Ghul. Old Hob is the DO so... if everything else rings true, why not that part of the tale? The Tower is smooth. Can't be entered from this world, I think. There should be another way in. Other than showing up at the door in cat suits.

128. Planeswalker

Brandon's Blog

Towers of Midnight this fall? Oh man...another long wait!
Janet Hopkins
129. JanDSedai
for dsolo@115--
Yes, I have often wondered what happened 70 yrs ago. We hear that number in relation to Setalle Anan; ACOS ch23 "Setalle!" Garenia exclaimed... "That was Setalle Anan? How did she--? Light of Heaven! Even after seventy years,the Tower would--"

We find out later (in POD ch28) that "Garenia" is in fact Zarya Alkaese, a novice who ran away 70 years ago.
She appears to have recognized Setalle, (maybe by another name?). Vandene and Adelas retired about that time, too.

I coulda sworn there was a quote about Cadsuane trying to grow roses for 70 years in one of the later books, but I can't find it. We do know, through Merana's POV, that she(Caddy) has been retired for at least 50 yrs, (twenty-five years on to the start of the Aeil War, which lasted for four years, then twenty years or so to the prestent date), and to someone who is probably 90-100 yrs old, "twenty-five years or so" could be much longer.

When did Elyas Machera escape from Tar Valon? Probably about the same time. And Pedron Niall refects on his first battle-- 70 years ago.

Once is coincidence, twice is poor writing, but this many times the 70 years are mentioned means something is up.

Perrin & Faile for the Saldean crown
Nyneave and Lan for Malkier
John Massey
130. subwoofer
This time line can't be right. All these guys would be geezers then.

PN- 90 when he bites it? I don't know. Elyas that old? I dunno. Only AS have lives that long. And George Burns.

Debbie Solomon
131. dsolo
for jansedai@129

I had forgotten about all those other "coincidences" of 70 years. I do have to agree with subwoofer@130 about Elyas.

I just went to the wot encyclopedia, and Elyas was discovered to be a wolfbrother about 15 years earlier. Cadsuane hasn't had a task she couldn't handle for 270 years (I just remembered the 70 part).

What was going on 70 years ago? Curiouser and curiouser.
Janet Hopkins
132. JanDSedai
ACOS Pr."Lightnings"
Pedron Niall POV "His hands had not trembled since he was a boy facing his first battle, more than seventy years ago."

Elyas might not be that old; but he might have been in the Tower then. As a Youngling? Since he is still bonded to his Aes Sedai, he could very well have a more vigorous old age.

Apparently, disease and sickness are less common in this Age. Yes, people die, but with all the inbred small population groups, I would expect more epidemics-- like measles among the Native Americans spread by the Spaniards. War and Famine are the only Horsemen seen yet; I guess Pestilence and Death are not far behind.
Janet Hopkins
133. JanDSedai
Oh, Deb, I didn't see your post at 131 until I posted. Scratch Elyas, but there's still a lot to consider.

What would have frightened a novice to run away? She was a novice with Careane when she was in the Tower, and we learn that Careane is BA. Then we learn that Verin was turned at that time. But the trouble with the Amyrlins dying didn't start until 20 yrs ago ("That vileness"). The Amyrlin 70 years ago was Kirin Melway, who was raised from the Brown and ruled from 922-950. (BBoBA)

SO... was the Amyrlin BA? Was Verin turned with the 13x13? And people fled the Tower to escape the BA? I think we will read more about 70 yrs ago in the next two books.
Alice Arneson
134. Wetlandernw
JanDSedai @129 - If there's anything significant about "70 years ago" I'm pretty sure it's limited to the White Tower. The only concrete things specified are

1) The novice Zarya (Garenia) running away;
2) Adeleas & Vandene retiring (we only know this because Adeleas mentions that "she ran away shortly before we retired"); and
3) Verin beginning her project to document all she could about the Black Ajah, Darkfriend schemes, the Dark One, the Forsaken, Tarmon Gai'don and anything else related.

It's possible that the three are related. It's also possible that "70 years" is more general than that; maybe Zarya ran away 73 years ago, Verin joined the BA 71 years ago (we know this, actually), started her project 70 years ago, and V&A retired 67 years ago. When you're looking back 70 years, "shortly" could as easily be 6 years as 6 months.

The others don't logically tie in, IMHO; Cadsuane doesn't (that I can find) say anything about 70 years ago; Elyas can't be more than 50 or 60, given his description in New Spring when he was still Rina's Warder; and Pedron Niall's "more than seventy years ago" when read in context is much more an indication of his age than of anything significant about that particular battle.

Oh, and @133 - no, Verin was not turned by the 13/13 trick. It changes your personality by magnifying all the character traits useful to the DO and virtually eliminating all those that might make you want to go back to Team Light. I'm not saying Zarya didn't dodge out because someone tried to recruit her to the BA (or whatever), but the evidence indicates that there were plenty of other reasons that girls ran away too.
135. alreadymadwith70yrs
Agreed, it does not have to be specifically the Black Ajah that would cause Zarya to run away. Particularly since Aes Sedai note that girls run away all the time, and that the Kin always has someone in Tar Valon on the lookout for potential runaways. I doubt Verin had to be 13x13'd. According to her she joined the Black and swore the oaths to save her skin. Meaning she swore under duress. Duress would not have been necessary if she had already been 13x13'd. Besides, even with the Black Oaths we still see in Verin a conscious effort to maintain the original Aes Sedai Oaths.
136. DH the Lurker
Huh. First post ever here so forgive me. Crazy theories:

1. Egwene's obsession with Gawyn is a distraction, and will eventually end up with Galad instead. There have been too many jokes about the Amyrlin marrying the top Whitecloak (mentioned at least twice). The two organizations ally (perhaps they all become warders).

2. The man in white that Berelain ends up with is Rhuarc (there was something between them after all.) Rhuarc will be wearing white because he'll become permanent Gai'shain like many of the others (returning to the Way of the Leaf and all that). Mayene is on the edge of the Wetlands. The waterless sands are likely to become home to surviving Aiel when the world breaks anew.

3. Last but not least: Davram Bashere killed Asmodean. The OBVIOUS hint that RJ was referring too was the wine. The last chapter of book 5 was out of order. Asmo dies in the wine cellar. Bashere first appears to Rand carrying a bottle of wine, which he had to get himself since there were no servants. Every book Bashere is drinking wine just to make it more blatant. He's a Darkfriend (possibly Demandred), and expect complications with Faile and Perrin.

DH the Lurker
Bonnie Andrews
137. misfortuona
DH the lurker
Welcome to the wonderful world of the re-read. Glad to hear your ideas.
You've been staying up at nights thinking about this too, havent you?

I actually see 3 as more than possible. I've had my own theory about Bashere for a while now.

As for 1 and 2, well A just don't see Berlain as becoming another of Ruarcs wives. Though there is her ready acceptance by the WO. Hmm. Maybe something there as well.

1 pretty much depends on 2 so I'll leave that one alone for now.

You have made me think in new directions.

Mis-going to have distractions on the way to work.
John Massey
138. subwoofer
So PN was really geezerly?

This does not jibe with how long folks should live in an age without modern medicine and sterilization. And Vaccines. And people brandishing sharp pointy objects all over the place, shouting "charge". Like in our North American pioneer days, folks only lived till the ripe old age of... well, not very ripe or old. Hard life tends to wear people out.

So I guess if that was what RJ wrote then it is so... just makes things like the age the AS live to, less significant if people are living pass the life expectancy of our own modern era.

@DH- lurker no more... well, keep them coming, I like thinking outside the box. But Eggy is all sap over Gawyn. Seems like maybe the torch will be passed to Gawyn, maybe Galad dies and Berelain ends up with the Aiel guy Rhuarc. Although that would be creepy because Rhuarc has more of a fatherly role here.

139. MasterAlThor
Ok so I was doing some research, as per Wetlanders request, and I came across something interesting.

Many of you believe that Taim was 13x13'd and I may have something for you.

In TSR, here is the first mention of the BA breaking Taim free to be set up as the Dragon Reborn. (TSR ch 5)

Now this would mean that Taim had already been captured by the time Rand took the Stone. If so and from "that woman's" pov, we get that men who channel and are captured are desperate to live. (ACOS ch 18)

See where this is going. Taim, in a desperate bid to live, willingly agreed to be turned. We know that tow of Liandrin's group have been captured. (TDR ch 55-56) But that doesn't matter because it is also reasonable to believe that there are some BA among the AS that are holding Taim. Where was Galina at this time?

So, I thought that was an interesting little tidbit.

Also here are some other things that appear for the first time in TSR.

Need was used for the first time.

Slayer makes his first appearance.

Have fun with that. I am off to do more research.

140. ValMar
DH, I personally will feel a perverse pleasure if theory 1 occurs. Not that I hate Gawyn.

And as I wrote on the re-read thread, congratulations to all Canadians! Very Impressive last night.
Jay Dauro
141. J.Dauro
I just cannot see Rhuarc marrying Berelain. I think he and his wives view her as a surrogate daughter, not another wife.
Bonnie Andrews
142. misfortuona
Yep. That's the feeling I got between them too. I will be quite surprised if the two most beautiful people in Randland don't end up together.
Still it's would prove an interesting, if slightly disturbing, twist.

Maiane Bakroeva
143. Isilel
Subwoofer @138:

This does not jibe with how long folks should live in an age without modern medicine and sterilization.

But they do have sterilization! They always soak their wounds/surgical instruments in spirits and boil water. Which is more than we had IRL until the second half of the 19th century (sic!).
They also have a very extensive and empirically proven system of herb medicine.
In fact, all in all, their medicine is about on the level of that of the early 20th century as far as overall effectiveness is concerned.

Also, people who survived infant and youth mortality living to ripe age wasn't unknown even in RL Middle Ages. Some of the Popes were quite geezerly, for instance.

AMW @135:

Particularly since Aes Sedai note that girls run away all the time

I always wondered if the BA don't take extra effort to drive away or fail/kill in the testing stronger initiates that seem to be unlikely prospects for recruitment. After all, why have extra Light-serving folks above you in the pecking order?

And BTW, what was with BA's idea to make Moiraine the Queen of Cahirien? IIRC, the then-head of the BA was strongly in favor. Was a little 13x13 party planned for her? And why in such case, was Moiraine tested before she was ready? Questions, questions...

And BTW, Martine/Setalle Anan was burned out about 25 years ago, but I always thought that she was victim of the BA, and after TGS maybe even of Verin herself. Didn't RJ say that eliminating troublesome sisters without causing suspicion was relatively easy for the BA, because experimenting with the OP is dangerous and murders can be easily disguised as an AS messing up?

In fact, isn't it possible that the Tower thinks that experimenting is much more dangerous than it truly is, due to this excuse being used to cover up BA murders so often?

Anyway, IMHO Martine/Setalle discovered something threatening the BA or was approached for recruitment and turned it down. She seemed to know what she was about with her ter'angreal research for 40 years and otherwise seems to have it together.
IIRC, she had an amnesia about what happened to her in the last few days prior to burning out, too.
Would be interesting if seeing Verin would shake same memories free. Maybe that's why she didn't appear in TGS at all.
I'd have thought that she'd be right there with Egeanin helping Aludra to construct cannons. After all, what, with TG approaching, somebody like her would want to do something meaningful to fight for the Light, IMHO. And as an ex- Brown, she is likely to have some helpful knowledge/skills too.
Tess Laird
144. thewindrose
I didn't come away with a feeling that Egwene is obsessing over Gawyn after reading tGS. In fact she seems rather annoyed with him, and has put him on the back burner to simmer.

To me, there seems to be too much symmetry with Galad and Berelain(both beautiful, a Min Viewing(which is not clear of course), an interesting balance to them - his to do good no matter the harm, and her willingness to do anything to get what she wants - I think they will be a great help to each other in backing down from such extremes). Galad has a lot of sun symbolism going on. I see the two of them together at the end ruling Cairhien.
Borders and countries are going to change after TG, but I think Cairhien will still be around.

Robert Jordan did say that the where and how Asmo died was key - I am blocked from Theoryland at work, however there is a quote on this, (it is also quoted a couple of times in the past re-reads here. But he said that the DO couldn't have re-bodied him even if he had wanted to because of where and how he died. I do think the DO could have caught Asmo's soul if he was just killed in the wine closet in Andor. We know balefire is one way that the DO cannot capture the soul, but RJ had two conditions to meet - where and how.

Bonnie Andrews
145. misfortuona
Re 70 years ago.
Do we know of any time that Vandene and Verin are together during the story?

I'm thinking that Vandene could have been involved in Verin's recruitment. A conection maybe, though I can't see how it could be significant.

As for a link between Zarya fleeing the tower and the BA. If the BA approached her or knew that she knew anything about them, I doubt that she would have survived long inside of the tower or out.
That would mean that she must have seen/overheard something that they didn't know about. If that were the case you would think that by this time she would have given up that info to Elayne.

Mis-taking WOT for work today
Ron Garrison
146. Man-0-Manetheran
70 years:
Rand was born in 978 NE at the end of the Aiel War
The Aiel War began 2 years before IIRC.
WHAT IS THE PRESENT YEAR in aCoS? That will help, I think, in our search. Seventy years ago was what year?
Debbie Solomon
147. dsolo
to DH the Lurker @ 136 -They may be crazy, but they are thought provoking. I don't see Eg and Galad, but it's an interesting thought. Remember in tGS, Rand sees Galad with Perrin and Berelain is also with Perrin (foreshadowing!) and Perrin also smelled a father-daughter vibe off Rhuarc and Berelain. Now the Bashere theory is kind of interesting. If he's not the killer, the clue is that he said there were no servants around (remember Rand passed a couple of servants in the hall). So, it's either Bashere or the fake servants.

to Isilel @ 143 - interesting thoughts about the BA and Setalle Anan. That would explain a lot.

to misfortuona @ 145 - I'm pretty sure that Vandene was not BA. Her sister, Adelais, was Brown, so she should have known Verin. They retired around the time Verin was turned, so there may be some signifigance there.

My favorite thing about this site is the different details that people remember. RJ's world is too complex to hold every detail in your own mind (hence my love for the wot encyclopedia). Thanks to all of you.
Don Barkauskas
148. bad_platypus
Man-0-Manetheran @146:

aCoS takes place in the winter of 1000 NE.
Bonnie Andrews
149. misfortuona
So aparently my WOT used to have a scene where it was discovered that Vandene had killed her sister, but that no longer is in my books so forget what I said about her being black.

Mis-needs medication
Janet Hopkins
150. JanDSedai
to Mis @149--
Yes, I remember the same scene! But appearantly I was just remembering the discussions on the forums BC (before Careane). Before that revelation, the Vandene/Black filled a lot of holes-- including how a Drakgkar was able to attack Moiraine when she was visiting the sisters.
Barry T
151. blindillusion

I was looking for this last night.

Just another theory on Hob's Hill.

And Sam(108),

Tsk. I tend to ref. Terez more than Linda (though both are equally awesome AFAIC). But sure, I'm Mat's Public Relations Specialist, so I'll take the job for the 13thD and Terez's Theoryland as well.
Alice Arneson
152. Wetlandernw
JanDSedai - I want you to know it's your fault I stayed awake so long last night! ;) After I went to bed, I laid there and thought about the connections between Zarya, Careane, Vandene and Adeleas... Now I'm about half convinced there's "history" between those 4, more than just the first two being novices together shortly before the last two retired. Careane knew Zarya as a novice before the latter ran away. Adeleas & Vandene knew both, but retired from the WT shortly after Zarya left and well before Careane gained the shawl. Careane became BA somewhere along the line. Adeleas recognized Garenia/Zarya, and was surprised that Careane hadn't recognized her. Careane murdered Adeleas, along with Ispan. When Vandene learns that Careane is BA, Vandene kills Careane and is, in turn, killed by Chesmal. There's no proof anywhere in there that something significant happened "back when" - it could just be RJ's conservation of characters - but it's mighty coincidental. *sigh* RAFO. *sigh*
Sam Mickel
153. Samadai

I hope you know I was just ribbing you. I like everything you come up with. I really like the 13th depository site. I have been to Theoryland, just not sure how to find things there. Plus I have heard that some places can be mean to the new people so I am leary.
Scott Terrio
154. Renegade248
Back to the books 4-6 theories.

Doesn't Lanfear tell Rand at some point in book 4 that "she knows of two more sa'angreals more powerful than that (meaning callandor) and one of which she knows still exists"? One is the choeden kal, which we find out later and is destroyed in TGS. Now the other one may or may not exist, but that could be the big thing everyone missed if it does indeed exist somewhere. Just something else to look at and discuss. (Do not have book handy, and some of the spelling may be wrong).

I love all these theories and that is why I keep coming back to this place and of course Leigh's re-read. Thanks all for my musings.
155. Doorman
@ Blind

Thanks: I got your link to the spoiler threads.

I just had a quick look at the first one. Its Xmass
and cookies and dingle balls are all the rage.

I think it will be fun to do a reread around Aug. when things are slow, and I have lots of time on my hands.

You guys have been busy; I have a lot of reading to do to catch up.

Ron Garrison
156. Man-0-Manetheran
Renegade248 @154
When I read that, I thought the other two besides callandor were the male AND female choeden kal (both now destroyed).
Bonnie Andrews
157. misfortuona
I think the two more powerful sa'angreals were the choeden kal and the female counterpart that they linked to for the cleansing.
That means they are both destroyed.

Mis-bearer of bad news.
I see MOM got there first. Darn Gabbly taking my attention.
Scott Terrio
158. Renegade248
I belive Lanfear tells Rand, 'there are two more powerful that you can use' meaning that they have to be male. I could be mistaken tho. Have to re-read that part if I can find it when I get home.
Ron Garrison
159. Man-0-Manetheran
Isilel @143
You are correct about the head of the BA wanting Moiraine on the Cahirien throne.
"Jarna Malari was an Aes Sedai of and Sitter for the Gray Ajah during the Aiel War (NS, Ch. 6). She was also Black Ajah, and before Alviarin, was the Head of the Black Ajah (ACoS, Prologue)...While Moiraine and Siuan are taking notes on names collected for the Tower Bounty, Jarna arrives, wishing to speak with Moiraine. She asks Moiraine several questions about Cairhien, and who she thinks will take the Sun Throne now that Laman and his brothers are dead. Moiraine is afraid that Jarna is contemplating Moiraine for the throne (NS, Ch. 6)."

Jarna also killed the Amyrlin, Tamra Ospenya, and for it died a gruesome death. She is snared in a ter'angreal that has been untried for centuries; for ten days, no can reach her while she screams throat-wrenching screams. The ter'angreal was activated by Ishamael, as punishment for killing Tamra and trying to kill the Dragon Reborn (ACoS, Prologue).

So, your thought about Setalle being burned out intentionally by the BA certainly seems plausable - as does your conclusion of the "dangers of experimenting" being used as a cover-up.
Karen Fox
160. thepupxpert
I just finished catching up on the TGS thread, wow what an accomplishment! Time to delve into all the comments here, yippee!
Ron Garrison
161. Man-0-Manetheran
A Reference
The 70 years question has had me searching all 'round. Here is an excellent reference from over at 13th Depository. Well worth a read! It's Aes Sedai History: New Era.
Karen Fox
162. thepupxpert
My favorite scenes are anything with Bela in it, it just warmed my heart to see her arc throughout the story. And when Egs is urging her to run, "...and Bela ran." that just gets to me every time.

I also loved Moiraine's storytelling of Manatheren (sp?) to the Two Rivers people in EOTW. And lastly after the battle of Emonds Field and Faile comes riding up, when Perrin sees her and they have their "moment" in front of everyone, that's way cool.

There are so many others that have already been mentioned that I also agree with (healing Logain brought tears to my eyes).

Now I can go back and get caught up on the posts, but I just had to get this posted!
163. alreadymadwithrunaways
Isilel @145
At this point in time the BA would already have Merean Redhill, one of the strongest women in the White Tower. I concede they might find it useful to sow chaos by encouraging promising trainees to bolt. But I don't see this being a priority. They're Black. They hide in shadows, not challenge the good ones openly. Besides even with such "encouragement" a good number of good sisters still stay the course and earn the shawl. No, I'm of the opinion Zarya just couldn't hack the discipline required of a White Tower initiate.

Also, I don't see any indication that it was the Black that wanted Moiraine on the Sun Throne. In fact, my impression was that it was a conspiracy among the White Tower leadership. From the Amyrlin down to the Sitters. Jarna did speak to Moiraine, but it could just as easily have been under the Amyrlin's instruction as the Black's.
John Massey
164. subwoofer

Awwww I dunno. I get that some people can be hale and hearty and... old... but I still find it hard to believe that average life expectancy turn of the century RL was 43. Randland has that beat. Jiggery pokery aside, I think that is a stretch. I've yet to hear about indoor plumbing beyond the bath houses but WoT has geezers outside a Warder bond? Aragorn was gyped. I think RJ used author's prerogative in this one.

Jay Dauro
166. J.Dauro
Renegade248 @154
Man-0-Manetheran @156

TSR Chapter 9
There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists.
So this seems to imply they cannot be both the Choedan Kal. In this case, there should have been one more sa'angreal for a man more powerful than Callandor.
She could be implying that she does not know if an access key for the Male Choedan Kal still exists, or she could be thinking the "other" may or may not still exist.
Tricia Irish
167. Tektonica
Wow...two busy days in RL and I'm waaaay behind. You've been busy in here! ::waves::

So much to comment on....

Welcome DHLurker...some good whacky theories! I still vote for Berelain and Galad. Berelain is much too much of a daughter figure to Rhurac and the WO's to marry him...kind of makes me scringe. I think Egs was kind of ticked at Gawyn in tGS and maybe even questioning her feelings about him...I hope. She may end up "married" to the most Amyrlins. (Were any ever married?)

I've always wondered about Bashere, as well....he just "shows up", wine in hand and volunteers to run Rand's army, abandoning his current position as head of the Saldean Army and his queen/cousin?? Meets Taim, who he is supposed to be chasing and says, he doesn't look the same? Something is queer here....I think he could definitely be a DF.

He might be in cahoots with whoever has the rest of the Borderland forces in Far Madding? (Demandred?) I sure don't understand why the three of Borderland countries sent their whole armies off ostensibly "searching for the DR". That does NOT make sense.
Why do they need to find the DR? With a large Army? Complete with 13 AS?
That is just one of the weirdest mysteries in this series to me.

Blind@151: Thanks for that link...more mysteries. I hope Mat isn't imprisoned in Finnland for a book. I'll miss him! (When I read stuff like that, I envision this ending taking another 5 books! )
Janet Hopkins
169. JanDSedai
re: more powerful sa'angreal
Lanfear said something like this on two occasions,
once saying two more that a man could use, the second time was a little more ambiguous.

BUT-- this has been talked about in the forums extensively, so is not a candidate for the B(ig) U(noticed) T(hing). All of the things we discussed earlier in this thread were dismissed, also; not by Brandon, but by his assistant, Peter.

to brain_d at 168: Welcome! Read at your own risk!
Bonnie Andrews
170. misfortuona
Welcome to show. We've got fun and games, and snickerdoodles, and apparently now cheescake. Don't count on any booze till after lent. We had to hide it for the good of one of our dear friends.

All of them have been discussed? Well thats sort of a let down. You know I'm begining to wonder if this BUT actually exists or if it was a prank by RJ, and now Brandon and Co, to keep us talking.
Wow what a cololsal waste of effort, considering what it would take to make us stop.

Mis-that'd be dispicable ;P

Oh yeah how could I forget. Ladies Hockey Gold!!! GO CANADA
Maiane Bakroeva
171. Isilel
Subwoofer @164:

Awwww I dunno. I get that some people can be hale and hearty and... old... but I still find it hard to believe that average life expectancy turn of the century RL was 43.

Yes, well, that's including infant mortality and such. Emperor Franz Joseph of Austria-Hungary still reached the same age as Pedron Niall.

Moreover, I have a book about the Borgias, complete with the genealogical tree, and quite a few of them lived to be 70-80, including a couple of Popes. That's in 15th-16th century and in a family infamous for dubious shenanigans.

Again, given that their medical knoweldge is completely religious prejudice-free, that systematic herbal medicine was never persecuted and destroyed, that they routinely use sterilization - it is no wonder that the Randlandians have pretty decent life-spans.

On the contrary, I find it jarring when there are many early deaths in the backstory of various noble characters, whose families would have had access to AS Healing and of course the best of the best of Randlandian traditional medicine.

AMW @163:

Well, I would not say that it would be an institutional priority for the Blacks... but it is in personal interests of every sister to have less folks above her in OP hierarchy and in interests of Black as a whole to have as many top spots there as they can. And Blacks are not restrained by thoughts about good of the WT, etc. So, IMHO most of them would be glad enough to encourage stronger initiates to leave/fail if they can do so unobtrusively.

Re: Moiraine, well, IMHO if the idea to put her on the throne originated from Tamra, wouldn't she have first spoken to Mo herself? It isn't like the Amyrlin never has a chance to interact with the Accepted. Jarna Malari seemed really behind the plan, though.
Also, the guy who eventually became the King of Cahirien, was a DF. Let's not forget that he was after Domon's Seal, together with all other DFs and Shadowspawn. And that Barthanes, who was a DF too and wanted the throne, didn't manage to remove him.
So, it seems to me that the DFs were really involved in Cahirienin succession and I wonder why their first candidate was Moiraine. A 13x13 must have been in the cards. Very lucky escape for her, IMHO.

DH the Lurker @136:

I also think that Bashere is probably a DF. Not Demandred, though - I think that Faile would have noticed and he smiles and laughs far too much, which Dem never does.
Also Dem is tall, while Bashere is short and this kind of illusion can't stand to the kind of interaction with other people and horses that Bashere must routinely engage in.
Nor could Dem have a fraction of horsemanship that Bashere must display.
Holger Marx
172. DreamHealer
Isilel @ 171:

On the contrary, I find it jarring when there are many early deaths in the backstory of various noble characters, whose families would have had access to AS Healing and of course the best of the best of Randlandian traditional medicine.

Wouldn't many nobles (not only in Tear and Far Madding) refrain from AS Healing, given that AS are in general rather feared than respected? The AS advisors most rulers had until recently acted more or less in secret (except for Andor), didn't they?
Rob Munnelly
173. RobMRobM
I have to confess something troubling. I found a potential problem with my Tam-Morgase theory.

For those newer to the thread, the theory builds upon the statement of Morgase in the throne room scene in EoTW where she said she had some familiarity with Two Rivers speech when she was younger. Given lack of likely contact with regular Andor and the Two Rivers and that Tam necessarily had to spend time in Camelyn during his time as a senior officer of the Illian Companions - as he had enough time to meet and marry Kari, who is the daughter of a Camelyn merchant - and that we have not heard of other Two Rivers people travelling in Randland and RJ's love of conservation of characters .....the thought is she picked this knowledge up from hearing Tam talk. Not because they were lovers or some such but either Morgase got to see Tam in action during his official responsibilities while she was a senior (in rank, not in age - she was a teen at this point) member of the Trakand house (note: Tigrane was Queen at this point) or due to friendship with Kari (who might have been in a Trakand-alligned house or even been an older cousin).

The theory goes on to suggest that Tam and Morgase will end up together after Tallanvor gets valiantly killed off - this is based on Gawyn's point in EOTW that his sister should marry someone from the TR as she needs someone strong willed and stubborn to stand up to her - and then Elayne and Gawyn both fall in love with people from the Two Rivers - why should Morgase be the only one in the family bwithout a TR spouse? It is also based on the point that Tam started in EOTW chapter 1 and 2as the most eligible bachelor in the TR, has not acted on that since he has been living for his son, and is now potentially going to be alone as Rand will have other responsibilities. He is one of the few characters who has always done the right thing. He is worthy of a woman's love, and (assuming he doesn't die valiantly, which I concede is a possibility), it will be an unfinished open hole of he ends up the story alone. So...who would his likely mate be? He liked redheads. RJ tends to pair romantic couples with their opposites. Tam and Morgase presumably have some type of common historic connections in Camelyn, etc. Tam just showed up in Perrin's camp and they'll have a chance to interact. Tam night even be able to figure out who she is and keep her secret before it gets outed by Galad. Seems like a match. All it would take is an attack on the camp, Tallanvor dying to save her, Tam saving her by flashing blademaster skills on camera - one of the things we've been waiting for all series, by the way - and voila.

Anyway - on to the problem. I was re-reading PoD and came upon Morgase's statement to Perrin in A Simple Country Woman when she got pissed off seeing the Manetheran flag up - "Aybara - that's a Two Rivers name, isn't it?" How the heck would Morgase know, sitting in Camelyn, that Aybara was a Two Rivers name? This suggests that she had to gain knowledge of TR speech by travelling to the Two Rivers and spending at least some time there. This hurts the theory because the supposition is she got it from interactions with Tam in Camelyn. It is not fatal to the theory but it is a blow. I guess she could have travelled there inspired by her interactions with the handsome officer from that region. That is the best case theory. Or she could have gone to visit her friend Kari - but the problem is that if she were close enough to Kari to hazard a visit, she would have remembered the name Al'Thor when Rand showed up in the throne room. She can't be that close to Kari or Tam for the theory to work.

Anyway, I still have hopes but her statement in TPOD gave the theory an unexpected (to me) hit.


p.s. If not Morgase, I'd like to see him with Leane who is a redhead and looking for a warder. Just saying.
John Massey
174. subwoofer
@Is, good times... perhaps you could post a link to this book. I would be very interested to read this source. Yes some nobles leading charmed lives may live long. Not general population, which is what average life expectancy is based on. Just sayin'.

And although I do not think that Western Medicine is the be-all and end-all of the frontier for healing, I do not put much stock in um... herbal remedies. At least in our world. There are too many little things for me that do not add up to a natural long lifespan in Randland.

First is war. There are peaceful places to be sure, but at the end of the day, WoT is constant strife and death. Not conducive to living long with a sword or spear sticking out of you. War alone would mean people would not live to old age. People tend to die in wars. Dying brings down the average life expectancy. This does not speak to people on the upside of the curve, which is what you may be referring to, not the mean.

Secondly, hard life wears you out. Contrary to popular belief, joins, bones, muscles age. When you are working out doors all the time, as most agrarian societies would be, you get worn out fast. All the herbal medicine in the world cannot replace hips and knees and backs.

And I have yet to read where people are making pilgrimages to the WT for healing owies. There is still a stigma attached to the Source and AS do hold themselves aloof.

Things like teeth, which are essential for eating properly would wear out. WoT uses salt, not fluoride. I do not know if WoTians have iodine either. These simple things are what help us live as long as we do now. Herbals are great, but I do not see it in daily use for everyone in the population, which is what is needed to boost all immune systems.

And I haven't even talked about vaccinations or disease control. I believe Eddings wrote in his second series about the power of what a plague can do to a population if left unchecked and with no vaccination. Swine flu was supposed to be a big thing going on. Massive lines for immunization as people feared the little piggy. Heh. It was supposed to cripple our population. Everybody was braced for the outbreak. Due to modern medicine, it is anticlimactic.

At the end of the day, RJ has the power to do as he will in his books and who am I to say he can't. He's the man and whatever he writes I will take on faith. That is why I am here. People live to 100, fine. Purple goes with orange, fine. But I can't believe that in RL with similar conditions... er, outside the jiggery pokery magic thing... that people would live as long as they did in WoT world. I can believe that a select few people live to a ripe old age, but it is not normal.

@Rob, what if Tam ended up with Berelain? It could happen. I have seen Tam wear white after labor day. And Berelain might want to be tied to the Dragon by becoming his mumsie-in-law.

Not a big hockey fan at all, but am a big Canada fan.... Yay! Go us! Gotta love Clare Hughes:)I think the own the podium idea was not so bad, and the female athletes rock! The OCC should stay the course. Pansies.

175. ValMar
Isilel & Dream @ 171, 172

Very nice analysis on the Randland's medicine and why is it different than ours was.
The same for the Blacks. Even if it can be debated on specifics (e.g. many sisters spoke to Mor about taking the throne) in general their actions have to be as you wrote. It is rather obvious, actually. Probably the Blacks played big part in the waning of the WT.

Also on early noble deaths, DreamHealer, I am guessing here, but I believe Isilel is refering to the child-nobles in Andor who showed up in support to Elayne. Orphaned rather early.

PS darn! Sub managed to sneak in an essay before me. Warfare in Randland was rather limited, compared to RL Europe. Small forces(about 5 000 men was considered a proper army)and geography limited most of it to border areas. Most people weren't affected. Major exceptions are the Aiel War, north Borderlands, and the Altaran War (there was guerilla stile warfare here and this is always ugly for the civilians).
About the medical stuff I can't comment. Maybe, in RL by now all herbs that work have become medicine, and those that haven't are BS.
You Canadians have begun piling up the medals. Still feel sorry for the US hockey twins.
Birgit F
176. birgit
note: Tigrane was Queen at this point

Tigraine was Daughter-Heir, the Queen was her mother Mordrellen.
Barry T
177. blindillusion

And I think Mr Jordan spoke directly to this topic, but I'm not sure. I'll check with Terez later. Cannot access Theoryland at work.

I know. But I do enjoy playing ball, i.e. stepping up to bat to put these sites out there. The more who know the sites the more that can be discussed.
Karen Jacobs
178. KJacobs
Renegade248 @ 154 et al:
Wasn't there a mention somewhere of a 'Ring of the Amyrlin'? I'll defer to the gurus out there, but I always had it in the back of my mind that the Ring was the other sa'angreal that Lanfear was referring to. I'm pretty sure there was a discussion regarding that way, way, way back during the TSR re-read that JD mentions up @ 166.

RMRM @ 173: I don't think it is too much of a stretch to think that Morgase would have learned generalities like name structures in the Two Rivers without actually having been there. After all, she learns cultures, customs, trades, etc... for all of the other nations; it only stands to reason that she would do the same for her own realm, even the parts that are hers in name only. I believe that it is pointed out on a number of occasions by (and about) Elayne that this was a big part of her education and that Morgase impressed its importance on her from a very young age.
John Massey
179. subwoofer
Thanks Blind:) Yes, I am not disputing that RJ has adopted herb lore and remedies. I am just saying that I, personally, do not put much stock in it. Mind you, I am not a big fan of the current medical system either.

What I am saying is that herb=/= long life. Or at least, unless the population mass adopts it, daily, there is no comparison to then and now. And 13D did compare the times to 17&18 century here. Back when, folks were dropping like flies.

And from what I have read, war is pretty common in WoT. Borderlanders deal on a daily basis. And there is civil war all over. And the Aiel. And well, stuff. Guys carry swords. Around. Everywhere. Not to stick into bales of hay. Hey, I'm just sayin'.

Bah! Humbug! I'm going to go have some relaxing tea;)

Marcus W
180. toryx
Couple of Comments:

RobM @ 173:

I'm not actually one of those who side with you on the Tam-Morgase theory (mainly because I like Tam and I don't like Morgase and I think Tam belongs with someone more worthy of his affectioN) but I don't think your theory is rocked all that much.

We know that while it's been quite a while since tax collectors have been to the Two Rivers, it did happen once upon a time. Given how little the TR has changed in the last several hundreds years (until Perrin went and stirred it all up, anyway) it's very likely that Aybara is an ancient name that's been there for millenia. If Morgase is as thorough a Queen as we've been led to believe, it's highly likely that she's studied old records that described Andor's reach, as well as what census data they'd have for the Two Rivers when they were collecting taxes there.

Assuming that Aybara isn't common outside of the TR, and Morgase has a mind like a steel trap (the chancier of the assumptions) I could easily believe she was able to recognize the name. Particularly when you consider how many of the TRs people have similar names. Aybara isn't that much different from quite a lot of of the other TRs folk's names, after all.

I actually have an easier time with the idea that Morgase can recognize Aybara than I can that she'd recognize Rand's accent, but that's a whole other discussion.

Subwoofer @ 174:

It's been a number of years since my history studies in college so my memory could be faulty, and I don't have the time to look up the references that I'm thinking of. But as I recall, there have been several periods throughout history when people lived quite long lives.

Actually, a quick look at Wikipedia suggests that people in the medieval Middle East lived for 59-84.3 years, and in Islamic Spain lifespans averaged 69-75.

From what I understand, the data is often skewed by the high levels of infant mortality in the past. It also didn't help that a lot of changes occurred in such short time spans so that while one generation living in a period of relative peace might have lives reaching to the 60's and 70's, the following one would be cut in half by warfare and disease.

Anyway, given that Randland seems to be rather free of large levels of disease, I don't think this is quite as far out as some of RJ's other, more imaginative, stretches of reality.
Maiane Bakroeva
181. Isilel
DreamHealer @172:

Wouldn't many nobles (not only in Tear and Far Madding) refrain from AS Healing, given that AS are in general rather feared than respected?

Would something like that realistically stop a seriously ill person or one whose loved ones are seriously ill?
And we know that even common people/merchants approach AS for Healing if they run into them and recognize them in time to help a dangerously sick beloved relative.
But the AS are always to be found in the capitals of Andor and Cahirien and the high nobility certainly can recognize them at a glance and/or send people to find them. They have experience of interacting with AS as well. Also, the royal advisers are right there too.
So, yes, I find it bizarre that, say, 2 wives of Moiraine's dad died young, including her mom. I mean, he was a brother of a king!
Or all those orphaned kid nobles who supported Elayne, etc.

I mean, I can understand if a noble gets ill and dies quickly, like Morgases's mother. It was during the Succession, too, so finding an AS with Healing in time may have been tricky. But even iRL most illnesses seemed to be more prolonged... and they do have very decent traditional medicine, too.

RobM @173:

Isn't it more likely that Morgase read up on TR a little after Rand's explosive appearance? Aybara is one of those distinctive Mantheren-derived names.

Subwoofer @174:

Here you are:

I see that it was also translated in English.

Anyway, looking up the Borgia family in wikipedia already makes my point, particularly if you check the kids of notable figures too. Lots of people who lived to 50+ - 60+ and some even longer including the infamous Alexandre VI himself, who may or may not have been poisoned at the ripe age of 71 ;).

Re: herbal remedies, well they mostly include the same active substances as many modern drugs, only in lower concentrations and unrefined. I mean, willow-bark tea contains salicylic acid, of which your Aspirin is a stronger acting derivative, etc.

Ditto the bark of cinchona tree from which quinine is derived, etc.

Penicillium mould was used as a folk remedy long before penicillin was isolated from it.

Etc, etc.

So, you see, a truly organized and widely taught system of herbal medicine like in WoT would have massively changed things iRL too. Particularly in tandem with sterilization which they also practice.

IRL it was combination of religious intolerance and persecution with erroneous philosophical foundations that made the medicine so ineffective for the most part until the 19th century or so.

Re: dangerous epidemics, the Yellows deal with those. It has been mentioned very very briefly when various Eyes and Ears networks were discussed, IIRC.

When you are working out doors all the time, as most agrarian societies would be, you get worn out fast.

Well, I don't have time to look up more links, but folks from various mountaineer peoples tend to be both very long-lived comparatively and quite vigorous in their old age, despite hardship. It may be just a genetic advantage though.
Bonnie Andrews
182. misfortuona
On the health care system in Randland
Well, I'm not really sure what the problem is here.
Yes people in the equivalent societies historically didn't live as long in general, but there were exceptions.
Seems to me I read somewhere that we should expect 3 score and ten years. So in a land with apparently sufficient food, little disease that we hear about, and zero pollution. Why not?
As for war, well if Genghis Khan can live to over 60, why not 90 for PN?

Mis-stating her piece

Blind @177 excellent link. Thanks
Birgit F
183. birgit
Wasn't there a mention somewhere of a 'Ring of the Amyrlin'?

The leader of AOL AS wore the Ring of Tamyrlin.
184. Gentleman Farmer
@154 Renegade 248, @166 J. Dauro

Re: Two more powerful sa'angreal that a man can use. (one of which, she knows, still exists)

I interpreted this to be:

1. Choedan Kal (male)
2. Eye of the World (male)
3. Callandor.

Eye of the World, the pure saidin which Moiraine describes as also being a sa'angreal was used up by Rand and Aginor, but Lanfear may or may not know whether it still exists. The Choedan Kal, on the other hand, she saw in Cairhien with Rand, so she knows that still exists.
185. nor3
This seems like as good a place as any to ask....

Am I the only person in the world who hates Mat?

He really annoyed me, more or less right from the start, but on nearly every post theres always people squee-ing over how 'awesome' he is.
Bonnie Andrews
187. misfortuona

***Twitch*** Even Gabbly isn't helping

188. alreadymadwitharmysizes
RobMRobM @173
Maybe Trakand had some estates in the west of Andor. Or had an affiliated house somewhere close. Or Isilel would also have a point in that Aybara is one of those distinctive Two Rivers names, along with the Al's.

ValMar @175
Agreed, since the Aiel War, conflicts have been limited in scope. A man of Pedron Niall's experience was literally horrified at the size of the army that Rand amassed for his Illian campaign. Only the Borderlands, who are always in a state of readiness, were able to field a sizable army without relying on half-trained and/or retired conscripts.
Maiane Bakroeva
189. Isilel
Nor3 - I don't hate Mat, but I am indifferent to him.

Most of his notable deeds so far had clearly nothing to do with his own merit as a person and everything with ta'veren supplemented by supernatural luck. And I really don't understand why folks heap him with praise for it.

I mean Mat versus Gawyn and Galad? It so clearly had nothing to do with his skills. Even he himself recognized it in his POV, but most readers don't ;).
We didn't see anything comparable from his dad, who was the champion staff-fighter superior to Mat either. So ya.

Mat did do a few notable things of his own volition - even though again luck rather than cleverness or skill provided the means. And he is funny and often in funny situations, so I don't hate him.

But his being the ultimate wish-fulfillment character who needed to be force-fed skills that he would have never ever tried to acquire on his own and showered with gold that he would have never ever been able to earn and pushed into prominence because he would have never etc. taken on responsibility willingly does irritate me a bit ;).

My hatred is reserved for Faile and Gawyn, though, from among the younger non-evil folks.
Ron Garrison
190. Man-0-Manetheran
Happy Friday, all!

DH the Lurker @136:
We know from RJ that we have not seen Demandred's alias yet.

"Again, given that their medical knoweldge is completely religious prejudice-free, that systematic herbal medicine was never persecuted and destroyed, that they routinely use sterilization - it is no wonder that the Randlandians have pretty decent life-spans."
AND, the caregivers probably washed their hands! Seriously, we can't dismiss the herbal remedies out of hand. As you pointed out at 181, many contemporary drugs are isolated from herbal sources - and they still are! The rain forests are a treasure trove for research.

"How the heck would Morgase know, sitting in Camelyn, that Aybara was a Two Rivers name?" I forget their names right now, but I remember that she got regular reports from both the female head of staff and, in this case more importantly, a male secretary who was meticulous in his reports. I think it no stretch of probability that the Aybara name may have come up in reports. So it doesn't necessarily invalidate your theory.

Yes. :-) Having read other works of RJ, I've come to the conclusion that Mat was probably the most enjoyable characters for him to write. Many of Mat's thoughts, opinions, personality traits are incorporated in other characters in other books.
Matthew Smith
191. blocksmith

Also, the poorer portions of society primarily in the cities of the 13th to the 18th centuries suffered substantially from water borne diseases (cholera, dysentery, etc) due to lack of sanitation/sewage contamination into drinking water supplies. There isn't much discussion in WOT about sewer design and maintenance but what litter there is (Caemlyn, I believe for one example) does have them and maintains them to prevent such outbreaks. If you eliminated this from medieval Europe, the infant mortality rate would have dropped and life expectancy increased.

That's why Civil Engineers should rule the world ...once they can find a girl with green eyes.


Welcome to the land of Mat-haters...population 1. And that does not include me.
Bonnie Andrews
194. misfortuona
Re Morgase knowing that Aybara was a Two Rivers name.

Would the names have changed so much from when this was Manetheran? Could it be that the histories are filled with names such as Aybara?
I doubt that Morgase ever travelled to the Two Rivers, and if someone other than Tam left the area during the time she was queen (probably) they would be unlikely to end up speaking to the queen.
Yep recognizing the name, absolutly, the accent more difficult, unless she'd at least met Tam.
Hmmm, maybe people really like to mimic the Two River's accent. It's like British, even if you've never talked to one... eh Maybe not.

Barry T
195. blindillusion
Hmm, Isilel:

You're argument is that the Pattern, i.e. A Higher Power, gave Mat extraordinary gifts...and you're indifferent to him for it?

So, you're indifferent to those who: excel at sports, have eidetic memory, can play any song on any instrument after hearing it only once, can do long division in their heads and can spin words into creative sentences with little to no effort...etc etc etc.

Mat didn't sell his soul for these powers. In truth, he didn't even ask for them. Ignorance got him those powers because the Pattern needed him to have them.

But he was born with a strong sense of protecting those he feels need protection. He does what he can to keep his promises. He stands by his people. He has a strong sense of duty. Mat's worthy of indifference? If so, then so are Rand, Perrin, Lan, Moiraine, Thom, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve...and just about every other person fighting for the Light.
Bonnie Andrews
196. misfortuona
Hey everyone just a reminder that some of us twitchers are hanging out at the Gabbly chat room.

Mis-looking for someone else to talk to.

Blind - YES well said.
Ron Garrison
197. Man-0-Manetheran
Well said, Blind.

Sorry, mis, but Gabbly is blocked from our work computers.
Bonnie Andrews
198. misfortuona
I figured that was the case.

Janet Hopkins
199. JanDSedai
re: Mat
I have heard it said that Mat is the person that RJ most closely idenified with. Presumably, he put more of himself in to Mat, and that's why so many people resonate with the character.

So, you're saying you don't like RJ?!

But, yeah, Mat is sometimes a not-nice person, and his development in the series could have gone downhill fast. So, if you had him pegged for a good-guy-goes-bad at the begining, his subsequent evolution could be jarring.
Maiane Bakroeva
200. Isilel
Blindillusion @195:

Mat's supernatural abilities aren't like RL talents that require a person to have a will to develop them.
Mat, by contrast has to be force-fed finished skills, because mere talent, even genius wouldn't have been enough since he couldn't be bothered to work at turning it into anything useful.

In this he negatively differs from people you cite above, who all honed their talents.

That, BTW makes any comparisons with RJ kind of strange, since I assume that RJ didn't just find his literary work all finished in a trunk somewhere :).

Also, Mat has a sense of duty to some people, but it wouldn't have been enough to keep him in this story without the iron hand of the Pattern - as is pointed out repeatedly by the author. Which also negatively differentiates him from people above.

IMHO, RJ did Mat no favors with all of this, but them's the breaks.

Of course, it makes him the ultimate wish-fulfillment character - who doesn't dream in their heart of hearts that they'd suddenly and with zero effort turn into a hero if the circumstances were right? A rich one, too and popular with the opposite sex. And so, he is loved ;).
Tricia Irish
201. Tektonica
Re: Mat Cauthon,
But he was born with a strong sense of protecting those he feels need protection. He does what he can to keep his promises. He stands by his people.

I'd just like to add that Mat has a strong sense of right and wrong. He makes lots of noise about not wanting responsibility, but accepts it at every turn. He is certainly growing in character throughout the book, regardless of his newly endowed abilities as a General. Or perhaps because of them, but Grow he does! He has a strong backbone. His grousing and whining and ignorance of his own importance (for quite awhile) is part of his charm, because in the end, he always comes through.

His character arc is pretty amazing's important that we let our characters I am learning painfully here....having to try to understand SWSNBN, aka the Old Biddy, Foghorn,etc.

Nynaeve used to drive me around the bend with her braid pulling and sniffing and lack of self-awareness, but she's growing too.
Jay Dauro
202. J.Dauro
Gentleman Farmer

I do not rmember Moraine referring to the EotW as a sa'angreal, just as a pool of pure saiden. The Encyclopedia does not list it as a sa'angreal.
203. Lsana
@184 Gentleman Farmer,

The Eye of the World was created during the breaking, years after Lanfear and her friends had been sealed away. Given that it had already been used up by the time she got out, I can't imagine that would be what she was referring to. I'm inclined to go with the Ring of Tamyrlin being the other sa'angreal.

@200 Isilel,

Not trying to talk you into liking Mat, but I do want to point out that his sense of duty is the tool that the pattern uses to keep him in the story. He wants to run off after he's healed, but he learns that Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve are in danger, so he has to go rescue them. He wants to leave in Camelyn, so the pattern leads him by an army in danger, with Mat the only person who can save them. He goes to Ebou Dar because of his promise to keep Elayne safe, and he stays long enough to meet Tuon because he can't abandon Olyver. As far as I can recall, Mat has never left anyone in danger, male or female, friend or stranger.

I think if Mat believed, really believed, that he had to follow Moiraine's orders or the world would end, he would (though he would grumble about it). His issue with needing to be "forced into staying in the story" is that he doesn't believe it, he doesn't really believe that it is all foreordained, and he certainly doesn't believe that he's so important the world will collapse if he's not there. So because he doesn't feel obligated to stay for vague prophesy reasons, the pattern makes him stay with real people who right this moment need his help.
Ron Garrison
204. Man-0-Manetheran
Nice analysis. Mat is the Reluctant Hero. He'd rather be playing dice and bouncing women on his knee. But when push comes to shove, he is there to save the day.
Juan Avila
205. Cumadrin
@184Gentleman Farmer, @154 Renegade 248, @166 J. Dauro

there are actually two passages, in the same chapter that are important here. i'll quote all of both, and everyone can make of them what you will, as they are slightly confusing, contradictory.

“I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet.” She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far—and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. “Not with that, certainly,” she added, grimacing at Callandor. “There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that.”


We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.” Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. “Two great sa’angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even . . . the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!”

the 'other,' possibly the Ring on Tamyrlin, was supposedly made by the FIRST channeler ever, according to the Guide. so maybe that's the 'other,' as it was around in the AoL, Ishamael mentioned it in the EotW prologue.
206. nor3
Well, thats great, I'm still alone in my views on Mat....

It's not that I had him pegged as a ''good-guy-gone-bad'', he just... annoys me. The whole womaniser routine irks me no end. Yes, yes, i know he's respectfull and doesnt push any woman, but god, give it a rest for a minute man! Every time I read about his cheecky grin I want to slap him and tell him to keep his hands to himself. And his blindness about himself (like how he wonders where Olver is 'picking this stuff up from') makes me want to ... what was the term... headdesk? Not to mention his attitude towards the little things, like destiny.

I could probably forgive the character flaws if he was of any worth to the narrative. But i dont really feel he has. He seems largely to have been a passenger to larger events. Like, followed the horn for a book or two, then he hung around with the important characters in the Aiel Waste, wandered around with an army for a bit, then sat in Ebou Dar not talking to the supergirls. Then, finally, his big moment - he meets the woman he's destined to be with, the Empress of a mighty empire, leader of an invading horde.... and then he hangs around a circus for a while. Big whoop.

Anyway, theres my two cents. Feel free to berate me with reasons why I'm wrong.

Oh, and one last thing, who/what is SWSNBN? I'm normally good with these acronyms but this one flumoxes me....
Barry T
207. blindillusion
SWSNBN refers to Cadsuane...not sure what the letters are for, though SNBN would be "Shall Not Be Named"...I believe.
Bonnie Andrews
208. misfortuona
She who shall not be named. Cadsuane. Talked about her to death for two weeks.
"Dang it Blind, go chase your soldiers around the yard or something. :)
Tricia Irish
209. Tektonica
She Who Shall Not Be Named = SWSNBN = Cadsuane

We had a VERY long and rancorous discussion of her for two rereads and many of us are tired of her.....and there's More To Come! Oh joy! (She's one I'll never like, unless she really really redeems herself somehow.)

I don't know what else to tell you about Mat. WE've stated our case here. Guess you just don't like Rogues. Me, I like my bad boys, as long as they're really good boys inside. Mat is fun and very real and human. I think he voices many of our "hidden" thoughts that we suppress in real life. Things our "self-editing" mechanism tells us to keep to ourselves.

Edit: Hi Mis, Blind! You beat me to it!
210. nor3
Yeah, i guess you're right, I just dont like rogues. Just annoyed me that no-one else seemed to agree with me. I'll stop harping on about it.

Re SWSNBN : Ah, I see. Just like to point out I dont like her, either.

Don't worry, I do like SOME of the characters :)
Bonnie Andrews
211. misfortuona
I think he voices many of our "hidden" thoughts that we suppress in real life. Things our "self-editing" mechanism tells us to keep to ourselves.

Where exactly can we get one of those things?

Matthew Smith
212. blocksmith

Welcome to the land of Cadsuane-haters, population growing exponentially as we speak...err, type.
Tricia Irish
213. Tektonica

LOL....mine needs a tune-up! Obviously!
214. Alfvaen
Talking about the sa'angreal, Callandor and the big statues and the Ring of Tamyrlin, makes me do they work?

One presumes that it has something to do with the substance they are made from. Some sort of internal crystalline structure that somehow magnifies the One Power. Does it actually let a person hold more of the One Power than normally, or does it just provide an extra receptacle to hold a bunch extra? But then, wouldn't it provide the same amount (additive, not multiplicative) for everyone? Where does one hold the One Power, anyway?

It makes sense that the statues are big sa'angrael, because they're, well, huge. You could fit a lot of One Power-holding stuff in there. Callandor? Well, it's made of crystal, so it's probably more a question of crafting it properly. Nobody was ever able to make such a big crystal (except maybe the statues' crystal globes?) without it being too flawed to work.

So how would a ring--one presumes a ring like you'd wear on your hand--be a sa'angreal? What kind of crap is that made of? And by the first channeler ever? That makes me think that it was even more flawed than Callandor, and probably had a high burnout ratio or something. Of course, it could have been a different kind of ring, like a big metal ring on the ground kind of thing, too big to move. I can't remember if this is clarified anywhere in the Big Book.
215. nor3

Angreal and sa'angrael arent just recepticles for the power. The power doesn't physically exist in the actual world, so when you 'hold' the power, its not physically in you. 'Holding' the power is really 'being ready to tell the power what to do'. So the power doesnt just store up inside the object, like you suggest.

Ive always thought of it as kind of a conduit. Like how if you channel water, you can get it to do work, turn a wheel or what have you. Similarly, if you channel the power through an angrael, you can get it to do (more) work, balefire someone or what have you.

It seems obvious to me that it would be to do with the molecular strucure of the object. On reflection, im not really sure why that should be 'obvious', but it just is to me. Maybe its cause im a chemist. Who knows. The point is, an angreals power is to do with the way it channels the energy, not its physical size.
Birgit F
216. birgit
EDIT: double post

Angreal are stronger than sa'angreal, but both exist in different strengths. Where is the dividing line between angreal and sa'angreal?
Birgit F
217. birgit
"No," Moiraine said in answer to a question Rand had missed, "the True Source cannot be used up, any more than the river can be used up by the wheel of a mill. The Source is the river, the Aes Sedai the waterwheel."

EotW, ch.12

(Sa')angreal are probably like another waterwheel.
218. wishtochannel
on a total other subject, I was just thinking about how Mesaana defeated the oath rod...

Do we think it's possible that, using a combination of Illusion, inverted weaves, and partially masking her ability to channel, she was able to make it look like she was swearing on the rod, when really she was just crafting the illusion?

That seems at once quite convoluted, and yet just the thing that someone from the AoLs should be able to do.

And nor3@185, I too hate Mat... I practically skip his chapters. Blech.
219. alreadymadwithwaterwheels
birgit @217
If you follow the Aes Sedai as waterwheel analogy, think of (sa')angreal as an larger upgraded spokes or blades allowing the wheel to control a larger volume of water.
220. nor3
Huzzah, a fellow Mat-hater! We should form a club!
Jay Dauro
221. J.Dauro
birgit @216

Sa'angreal are stronger than angreal.

So far we have seen 4 sa'angreal (or so),
Callandor (M)
Choedan Kal (M and F)
White fluted wand (F)

We have seen around 10 angreal
222. Alfvaen
Okay, so then it's like this. One Power exists somewhere in a contiguous reality. (Folded up in superstrings?) A channeler can harness some amount of it, but not more than that--it's the strength of the channeling field emitted by your mind(?) that determines how much you can harness. If you try more, then either you don't succeed, or you lose control of the OP and it damages you in some way, burning out your channeling field emitters or killing you. (How does it kill you precisely? Uncontrolled weaves loose in your body or mind?)

So an angreal can enhance your channeling field somehow. Whether it's like an amplifier or a lens, it is probably reliant heavily on the molecular structure of the substance. (There's enough leeway for angreals to be made of a number of different substances, and with some artistry in their production. They're not just a bunch of identical featureless discs.) There must be some relationship to size, or the sa'angreal statues wouldn't be so frakkin' big. (Unless that was just megalomania on the part of their creator(s).) So I still say that a sa'angreal you can wear on your hand strains my credulity a bit.

Ter'angreal...well, those are obviously more complex, but they would basically be designed to automatically draw the OP into a particular weave. A rod that shoots balefire would have the characteristics of the balefire weave in it somewhere. Something that doesn't require channeling has some kind of "autostart" function that can grab OP for itself, and probably a minimal user interface. (Can you have a ter'angreal computer?) Some of the more complex ter'angreals, like the Rhuidean pillars or the accepted-tester, would probably have required mixed circles to make them in the first place. (Were there male Aes Sedai in Rhuidean? Maybe not.)

Sorry, I just felt like trying to work out some of the theory. If they had a Brown Ajah in the Black Tower...the Burnt Umber Ajah?
223. alreadymadwithangreal
Half of the sa'angreal we see are easily portable. I suspect the gigantic size is also a precaution. Larger artifacts are less portable.
I believe the power source for ter'angreal are called standing weaves. Think of weaves where the Power is trapped in an infinite loop with minimal loss. Like a lightsaber.
224. nor3
Alf : Prehaps you're right.... Now that i think about it, most of the not-so-powerfull angrael are small enough to put in your pocket - Graendal's ring, Rand's little-fat-man, etc. Next step up would be Callandor, a sword. Prehaps the Choden Kal's size relative to Callandor is proportional to it's relative strength.... In which case, whoa momma... I mean, I knew it was strong, but sheesh....

While it does kinda put a crimp in the 'Ring of Tamirlyn' theory, it doesnt nessecarily mean the other angrael is huge... Just bigger than a sword, which isnt that cumbersome an object. You could probably carry it without difficulty.
225. nor3

I've always thought of standing weaves as a kind of AOL electricity grid. One of the forsaken mentions having to channel to use a ter'angrael because the 'standing weaves' dont exist any more. Presumably, back in the AOL, you'd plug your terangrael into the system, as it were, like plugging in your tv, and then it would run on power drawn from some centralised source.

Not really sure how the terangrael that run by themselves work. I'll work on a loony theory.
226. Alfvaen
Perhaps ter'angreal that don't require channeling can't do everything that the other kind can. Since there are Dreamers that can't channel, obviously going into Tel'aran'rhiod doesn't require channeling, and so it's possible to achieve using a non-channeling ter'angreal. Probably you can't make one of those that shoots balefire.

I'd forgotten about the "standing weaves" thing. That would mean that a number of ter'angreal that only channelers can use today could have been used by anyone...though hopefully still not the balefire ones.
227. alreadymadwithcircles
nor3 @225
However standing weaves work, the principle is the same. In the AoL standing weaves supply the power. In the modern age, with the standing weaves gone, the channeler has to provide the Power. For ter'angreal that run by themselves, I suppose these have integrated into them smaller versions of standing weaves that can still provide Power, and they don't require much to begin with. The only example I can really come up with is the Dreaming ring that Elayne copies. Even with the other Dreaming ter'angreal, they don't really need to channel more than a faint thread of Spirit.
Actually, now that I think of it, perhaps the reason why the ring still retains the ability to run without channeling and why even copies receive this ability, is that the circular shape easily lends itself to an infinite loop of Power.
228. Freelancer
Well, I finally tried it, and Gabbly is, at my workplace, not only merely blocked, but truly most sincerely blocked. Phaw!

In the immortal words of the Governator, "Ahh'll be Bach".

And apropos of nothing, I note the chapter icons utilized at the top of this thread. We have Mat's dice, Thom's harp, the Ancient Symbol of Aes Sedai (ASAS), Lanfear's Stars and Crescent, and who does that bird belong to on the right? Is that a hawk, for Hawkwing? For Mayene? I can't place it, and I must know!
Sam Mickel
229. Samadai
Hmmm good question. or is a falcon for Faile?
Juan Avila
230. Cumadrin
Faile. aye. i noticed them day one, but couldn't think of a reason to mention them other than Thom's harp being slightly larger, and considering trying to convince others it's a 'hint at something!'

but i thought better of it.
Thomas Keith
231. insectoid
I believe it is a falcon for Faile, used from at least WH onward.

John Massey
232. subwoofer
Hey Is, facts are facts. Check out the links I gave you in my initial rebuttal. Turn of the century, folks were living to the ripe old age of 43.

233. DH the Lurker
More crazy theories:

1. Last battle begins the instant Rand, Mat, and Perrin are in the same place. This hasn't happened since Bk4 in Tear! That's the reasoning behind the color swirls and the tug towards eachother.

2. Sammael did not die in Shadar Logoth. No body, no proof. Moridin saved him?

3. Morgase will be turned by the 13x13 Darkfriend recruiting circle. Poor Elayne, Gawyn, and Galad.

4. Cadsuane retires and joins the Kin after the last battle (only one old enough to get any rank).

5. Rand dies and takes over Moridin's body.

DH the Lurker
234. Gentleman Farmer
@202 JDauro et al

Re Sa'angreal

Hmmmm. I hadn't thought my proposition that the eye of the world being a sa'angreal would be particularly contentious, much less universally rejected in favour of a reference to a ring.

It appears that JDauro et al are correct, Moiraine never refers to the Eye as a sa'angreal.

However, being hard headed as I am, I remain of the view that the Eye of the World is a sa'angreal, although I acknowledge that Lsana @203 has a good point that Lanfear may not know of it.

For evidence of my proposition I offer:

1. TeoTW Ch. 43 per Moiraine "There is enough power in the Eye of the World to undo his prison."

If it is not a sa'angreal, then it's kind of irrelevant what total amount of power is in it, except as a unit of measure. On the other hand, to undo the prison, why would one need pure (as opposed to tainted) saidin? The more plain interpretation is that channelling that amount of saidin would be able to undo the prison, implying (to my mind) an action like a sa'angreal. In terms of quantum of power, I would think that amount should be akin to a Callandor level *angreal.

2. TeoTW Aginor seizing the saidin from the Eye and Rand taking it away.

Why would Aginor need untainted Saidin, except to deprive Rand of it? We know from Asmodean in TFOH that the Forsaken are shielded from the taint by the DO. Yet as Rand takes the shining threads Aginor is yelling Mine, you shall not take it, Mine. Why would Rand even need to take it to fight him if it's not akin to his battle for control of the Choedan Kal with Asmodean in TSR? Why would Aginor lose because Rand has the untainted saidin? It makes more sense he loses because of how much more powerful Rand is with the aid of the Eye.

3. Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap. Rand destroys trollocs, with fades numbering in the hundreds. We know that men grow in strength by leaps and bounds. Here Rand is at the beginning of his strength. By CoT, Rand is fighting trollocs with much more channelling expertise, fancy weaves, (presumably) increased strength and the aid of several asha'man, including Logain. My sense is he doesn't kill many more trollocs than he destroyed at Tarwin's Gap. I think it's not unreasonable to assume he could only have achieved this with a *greal of some sort, namely the Eye.

4. Rand cuts Ba'alzamon off from the True Power. We are told Ba'alzamon's black cord is much thicker than Rand's own. We know from TGS that the amount of the TP is comparable to the Choedan Kal. If Rand isn't connected to a sa'angreal, wouldn't his thread of light be infintisemal next to Ba'alzamon's, rather than merely not as thick? Could he have any hope of cutting off Ba'alzamon if he wasn't using a sa'angreal?

For those reasons, (and my faulty memory of Moiraine's comment) I thought the Eye was a sa'angreal, and therefore one of the two more powerful referred to by Lanfear. I still think I prefer this analysis, with the logical flaw of how Lanfear knew of it, to the existence of an unnamed sa'angreal for males and no explanation for why Aginor wanted/needed to use the Eye.
Sam Mickel
235. Samadai
Robert Jordan said that Sammael is dead, so your # 2 is wrong. The Creator has spoken
Sam Mickel
236. Samadai
Gentlemen f.

Rj is also said. Aginor wants access to the power without having to use his link to the dark one. The Forsaken are interested in doing things without the DO knowing about it.So he saw the Eye of the World as a way around the DO "seeing" what he was doing.
Alice Arneson
237. Wetlandernw
subwoofer @ 174 - Can't speak for the population at large, but I can tell you my dad was still using a 24" chain saw, at arms length, in his mid-seventies. Lived a very outdoor life as a farmer and logger, and finally gave up cutting his own wood in his eighties. Still splits wood the old-fashioned way for the kitchen fire, and he just turned 93 last December. ;)

and @232, an average lifespan is not the same as a limit. If you have a lot of infants & small children dying, there have to be some folks out on the other end of the spectrum as well, living much longer than 43 years.

And on another note, perhaps the AOL eliminated most of the communicable kinds of diseases, leaving the 3rd Age with virtually no influenza, plague, malaria, cholera... Alternatively, perhaps the immune levels of the entire population were strengthened to the point that the same result was achieved. With very little pollution, reasonable sanitation practices, a general understanding of infection and cleanliness (and the relationship thereof), there's no reason for the average age to be in the vicinity of 43. And no reason at all that a fit and active man with clean habits and good diet shouldn't live to 85 or so.
Jacy Clark
238. Amalisa
*agrees with Wetlandernw*

And in the event that some plague/influenza/epidemic did break out, there is this pretty effective Healing force able to respond...
Rob Munnelly
239. RobMRobM
DH - No. 5 is not crazy at all - better than 50% chance it will happen. It's either that or he dies, becomes a hero of horn and is ripped out by Nyn.

Alice Arneson
240. Wetlandernw
Regarding the sa'angreal: The fact remains that Lanfear is the only one who speaks of the "two greater" sa'angreal for a man to use, and there is no logical way she could be referring to the Eye. It was created after she was sealed away with the DO, and used up before she was released. The Ring of Tamyrlin is pure speculation, but about the only thing we've heard of that might fit. There's also this glossary entry in To The Blight (vol. 2 of the YA version of TEOTW)
Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): a legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman.
241. Dooorman
Hey: to you gurus,s; Is there any chance that Rand get,s more powerfull after his rebirth

After all he and LTT are one. I hope that he now
Knows all that LTT knows.
Rob Munnelly
242. RobMRobM
I thought someone would have noted by now but Brandon put a long post the onther day on his blog re the status of ToM. The progress bar hasn't moved from 82 percent for two months because he decided to do a series of rewrites of existing text before proceeding with the remaining chapters. He's happy with how it is going and still working towards a summer finish that would allow Tor to get the book out this year. ToM is going to be longer than TGS as well.

@241 - powerful in terms of power, probably not. He is what he has always been. In terms of use of power, he may well be more integrated and effective. If you are talking "rebirth" as meaning in the future after he dies and is reborn in Moridin's body or his own as a Hero of the Horn a la Birgitte, I doubt it.
Birgit F
243. birgit
The Eye is probably a male Well (like Cads' hummingbird for women). Aginor died because he drew more Power than he could handle.
John Massey
244. subwoofer
Le Sigh.

@Wet, I have never disputed that some people live to a ripe old age. My great grandparents lived to see me alive. I get that. What I am saying, is that in the real world, not the Age of Legends or anything else the average live expectancy was 43 at the turn of the century. In a link given from 13D, WoT was compared to 17 or 18 century living. Through multiple reasons beyond medicine, like more food, sanitation, fluoride(any number of issues came about because people had bad teeth and could not eat), iodine, clean drinking water, hygene- daily baths, etc. peoples life expectancies greatly increased. That is why currently we live longer than before. I get that a big contributing factor was high infant mortality, to get stats down( geeze! This is starting to feel like a book report) but let's face it, we do live longer than before and our lives are better than before, less stress, war, better lives.

Sorry folks, this is my opinion, but I think our lives are better now, than they were back in the day when people where settling North America. And I am making that comparison to the age that the WoT currently is. This seems to have gone far afield of hey, herbal remedies vs. modern surgery what door will you take?

& I'll bite. @Is, I think you are awesome and I love how well thought out your discussions are. Really make me think beyond, "weeeeee, Mat is getting stabbed by Trollocs" or some such. But I have actually found 3 WoT books, have been leafing through them like a champion, but I cannot find any references to sterilization. There is talk of ointments and washing of wounds, but nobody is wearing a mask, or boiling needles for sewing wounds or sanitizing their hands, clothes etc, when sewing another up. AS Healing I give you. No argument there, it is awesome. Wish one was around when a landmine burst a ear drum in Bosnia.

Bottom line for me, there are many things in WoT that cannot have parallels in the real world. Just can't get my head around it. But from what I read, folks get their waters from streams, the same one animals do their business in. There is no mention of er... public works like sewage disposal or water treatment. And the pointy swords. And the Trollocs. I can't see how a person would live to a ripe old age with all these things. Unless they lived on top of a mountain and meditated. Like some of our gurus.

Anyways, I'm dun. Would pull out a lawn chair and sip some Southern, but Lent.... gah! This was a poorly thought out plan on my part. I should of given up needle point or something. Say no to cheese. Give up cinnamon. Swear off reading medical journals. Pass on the daily haggis. I dunno. Gonna find me some real ice tea and um... maybe get some smore action going. Good way to start a day. Massive sugar rush.

Debbie Solomon
245. dsolo
re: longevity in WoT. I don't think average people live extended lifetimes, but they do seem to live comparable lifespans to modern times.

Rand thinks about Cenn Buie being the same age as Loiail (80 years old) and old Cenn is still an active (if annoying) member of the Men's council and participates in the defense of Emond's Field. Every village/town seems to have a Wisdom/Wise One, etc who has some knowledge of herbal healing and in many cases, low level power. Remember all the older women who sign up as novices, many of them had been Wisdoms. While probably not comparable to modern times, it seems to be far ahead of our Middle Ages.

Another difference is that this Age is not learning how to do things in a new way, they are recovering lost knowledge. If a major disaster wiped away our civilization, the survivors would still be able to find some surviving books/information. Of course, it would be more helpful, if someone who lived hundreds of years was around to help preserve some knowledge.
Tricia Irish
246. Tektonica
Regarding various discussions above about S'angreal and the Ring of Tamyrlin:

Someone questioned whether size had anything to do with the amount of power the Angreal could hold, and did a very scientific explanation of the possible physics of the them. One thing that I didn't see mentioned was how the substance the S'Angreal was made of might affect the potency of the object, ie: it's ability to hold or focus vast amounts of power. Seems like the molecular structure could dictate the effectiveness of said Angreal. So, a small object made of a particular substance could be more powerful than a large object of a different substance, yes? If so, the Ring could be a very powerful S'Angreal, if made of the right stuff.

Good Morning Sub::waves:: Hope you didn't give up caffeine too? Perfect compliment to your sugar rush. Pass the s'mores please.....
Jacy Clark
247. Amalisa

I'm thinking I should've given up Farmville...
John Massey
248. subwoofer
Ohhhh! Brilliant discovery time! So as it turns out, couldn't find any marshmallows. But I got a hold of some bacon. fried it up in the pan and then did some toaster oven action. mmmmmmm! Soo good, and perfect crispy too! Fat dripped away on the rack... ahhhh! I wish I tried this sooner.

Um, WoT related, maybe it is the weaves involved in creating said object? A weave for making bacon? I feel gyped somehow. It would be cool if there was a cooking ajah. Boot the logic girls outta white or they could have white aprons instead of shawls. The Trollocs are hungry, maybe because they have such poor diets. Pastry them into diabetic submission. Channel the perfect rack of lamb. Trollocs fat and full would make for poor fighters. Want to fight? Here have a hamburger. Ohhhh! 10lb hamburgers. They would be digesting for weeks. Trollocs die of coronary disease or other obesity related problems. Just a thought.

Hi Tek! ::waves perfectly crisp bacon:: It is a good morning:)

Birgit F
249. birgit
But I have actually found 3 WoT books, have been leafing through them like a champion, but I cannot find any references to sterilization. There is talk of ointments and washing of wounds, but nobody is wearing a mask, or boiling needles for sewing wounds or sanitizing their hands, clothes etc, when sewing another up.

And her hands were clean. He wondered why her hands were clean when smudges of soot marked her cheeks.

"Egwene, I need you! And wash your hands again!"

EotW ch. 7
Bonnie Andrews
250. misfortuona
Happy Saturday WOTers and welcome to Mis' World.

So here I am driving to work, 10 miles in rural Saskatchewan where I meet 4 trucks, 2 hauling snowmobiles, and a dozen snowmobiles, (these are actually in the ditch beside the highway). Counting vehicles may seem strange,... but then again if you've been reading my rantings maybe not.
Anyway the traffic is not the basis for my story today, but it is indicative of why I was musing on warmth and tropics and Randland Pirates. (Follow me people – the snowmobiles)

Bare with me this is going somewhere. I was thinking of the freedom of a Sea Folk vessel. You know out of sight of land and expose yourself to the wind and the sun, and all. I know a picture you boys love, but here's the thing. I then got to thinking about what's involved in sailing a ship. Hauling ropes and climbing riggings and the picture suddenly came to a 'tearing' halt.
WTheck who in their right minds exposes that much skin to hemp, (I assume) rope. The picture in my mind changed to one of blood and scars, and then I got to thinking about all the trinkets that they wear in thier ears, and noses and such, and with chains.

So much for those alluring, and exotic Sea Folk women. Uggg. Sorry guys.

Mis-seemed like a good idea at the time

edit forgot GO CANADA!!!
251. Gentleman Farmer
@Samadai 235, 236

Re Sammael etc.

I've commented before, I rely on the texts alone for my thoughts, for a number of reasons. Partially because (as you well know) there is always the distinct possibility that someone quoting RJ is... hmmm.. shall we say, misremembering or misinterpreting.

The other reason (and my real reason) is that RJ can say what he likes, but what remains is what he wrote. If he wanted to say it in the books, he could have done so.


Certainly we may come to the end of the series without ever seeing Sammael again, and can then accept that he's dead. But based on the text alone, I think you'd have to admit the evidence of his death is more than a little weak, and in my view, seems to have been deliberately written to leave that doubt in the reader's mind. Whether or not RJ or his successors subsequently capitalize on that doubt is a matter of authorial judgment.
Tricia Irish
252. Tektonica
Hey all....I've compiled the data on the survey from Reread Part 13 about tomboys and our rural history and maps...where should I post it? It seems appropriate here on the GD thread, no? Advise, please.
Bonnie Andrews
253. misfortuona
Good morning Tek. waves

I'd think GD, it isn't really WOT after all. I look forward to seeing it.

Tricia Irish
254. Tektonica
Just had a thought in the shower....where my best ideas come from, and I can barely remember 30 minutes later....although the Survey would be more appropriate on the GD thread, we don't want to break our shiny new playground. The rereads get refreshed every week....ummmmm.....thoughts?

I'd love to see some other "deductions" from the data. I noted parts of the posts too, but haven't included that, as it's VERY lengthy, but I could.....

You all let me know what to do with this ....

Thanks Mis! ::waves back:: How's Saturday going? I haven't gotten diddly done, except for massaging the data.
Bonnie Andrews
255. misfortuona
Mmmm massage. Oh anyway Saturday is going very slowly. Slow here, slow at gabbly.
I sort of thought the same thing, re posting data on 14. It will probably take some substantial space, and really we'll all see it no matter where you put it.
Not much help am I?
Got it I'll figure this out scientifically. Heads GD, tails 14. 2 out of 3 tails. Put it on 14. :)

Mis-wishy washy
Jay Dauro
256. J.Dauro
Gentleman Farmer

Ooh. A Real masochist. Some are complaining about 14 books and a prequel being too much. ;^)

From what BWS has said there is more about WOT in RJ's files than he published. If he was to include everything about the story, we would probably have gotten no further than book 9 - The Dragon Reborn.

Of course you do not have to accept anything RJ said. But if you are trying to figure out what is going to happen, it probably makes more sense to use all of the information available.

Until someone can show me where he contradicted something he said in an interview or in his blog with something he wrote in a later book, I will probably accept what those quotes as gospel.
Don Barkauskas
257. bad_platypus
subwoofer @244:
There is no mention of er... public works like sewage disposal or water treatment.
Rand sees models of new drains and sewers for Cairhien" at the school in LoC, Ch. 18.

Elayne and Master Norry discuss the sewers of Caemlyn in Wh, Ch. 26 and KoD, Ch. 35.

Elaida reads a report on Tar Valon's sewers in KoD, Ch. 2.
258. wjames1204
The scene that gives me the biggest chill is for sure the end of Knife of Dreams, when the Ashaman are all laughing, and Taim says "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." I shivered, but it was probably my favorite scene in the series.
Alice Arneson
259. Wetlandernw
I'm with J.Dauro on the question of "WoT canon," with the stipulation that when someone is quoting what they heard or think they heard him say somewhere, it's not 100% credible. But when RJ said something in a blog, or the interview has been transcribed from a recording, I go with it as canon. As noted, there is far too much information in his files to cram it all into the books. That's one of the reasons he was planning to put together an authoritative Encyclopedia after the series was finished. RJ did incredibly elaborate backstories on even minor characters, so that they would behave in a manner consistent with their background and various appearances. As I understand it, his historical data was also developed far beyond what we see in the books; he wanted to have it clearly in his own mind so that references could be as accurate as possible, or appropriately inaccurate depending on the character speaking. In that regard, sometimes his interviews and blogs provide more "truth" than what is in the books; RJ repeatedly made the point that what a character believes to be true may, in fact, be wildly incorrect.

The example of Sammael is actually a very good one. From Rand's POV, for quite a while he "knew" Sammael was gone because of his contact with Mashadar. But then there's that dream, where he learns that only balefire is a sure killer for the Forsaken. Now Rand isn't quite sure, after all... But for whatever reason, RJ didn't feel it was worth a RAFO - he apparently felt that we should realize by now that no one is immune to Mashadar except Fain, and that's only because he's got the Mordeth-component going. (We've been told repeatedly that Fain is a unique and very wierd & scary melding of the worst of human nature, the DO's hound, Mordeth and possibly some aspect of Machin Shin. IMO, as evil as the Forsaken are, they are still human (mostly), with fairly strong personalities; they really aren't capable of absorbing that many different personas. Even Fain can't do it and stay sane; I think the only reason he could do it at all was the lack of strong personal character, which allows him to sublimate himself to fit whatever role he's playing at the moment.)

Okay, that wandered rather freely... but I'll let it stand, just for the fun of it.

subwoofer - Not picking on you. Just had to chuckle when you talked about bodies wearing out, because it brought back the picture of my dad, age 78, grumbling and disgusted because he couldn't keep swinging that monster chainsaw for more than about 20 minutes without stopping to rest. "I just can't keep going as long as I used to." Uh... yeah.... There's just the little detail that most men half his age couldn't do as much... It depends so much on what you are accustomed to doing. Personal stories aside, though, I just think it's reasonable for RJ to decide that in the Third Age, its not terribly unusual for a man to live into his 80s or more. That's the fun of a fantasy - you don't have to stick with the way RL actually was in any particular time frame, as long as you change the appropriate parameters in a more-or-less reasonable fashion. That's why I threw in the bit about eliminating diseases and such. It works for me! Then again, my disbelief-suspension muscles are well-exercised - I can hang that ol' disbelief out to dry any time I want. ;) I love fantasy.....
John Massey
260. subwoofer
I can't hear you, not only because I am partially deaf...
sits on lawnchair crunching bacon

Thomas Keith
261. insectoid
Sub @248, 261: Ohhh stop! You're making us jealous. ::wishing we had some nice crispy bacon in bunker::

Bonnie Andrews
262. misfortuona
On it. Bringing bacon next trip in.

Thomas Keith
263. insectoid
Mis @262: Thanks Mis! It would surely bring some cheer to this gloomy rainy SoCal weather. ;)

Jerry Bennett
264. Isvarden
On the topic of Pdan Fain. Is he really Fain anymore? More and more later in the series through the short glimpses through his eyes we see such a deteriation of his mind that he doesnt distinguish himself apart from mordeth or being fain anymore. his mannerisms and accent change in mid sentence, and his deep relationshp with mordeth is making him nore of a third faction in the war of good and evil. He no lnger thinks of himself as working for shaitan, yes i said it, and is so completely consumed by his lust for Rand that the dark has no holds on him anymore, this i believe, he can see any darkfriend clear as day, or if they have even thought of turning over. No no Fain will be a bigger problem to deal with later on in the story than i think anyone is giving him credit for. the men is pure insane hatred, evil, and an evil even more dark than the dark one's evil all crammed into one body, plus his little trick of stepping into and out of the PATTERN whenever and wherever he wants. Does anyone else cringe when they think of that fact?
Jerry Bennett
265. Isvarden
O yeah i wonder how it affected him when Aridhol ( Shadar Logoth) was destroyed. I would've loved to have witness some sort of scene, he should have still had a connection with the city within him at that point anyway......
Jerry Bennett
266. Isvarden
kk 1 more and im done for the night, thousand times a thousand, world without end, fighting forever, if it says in the prophecies that he is born of the mountain, and created the mountain when he last died, are there a thousand times a thousand reaaaaalllllllyy tall mountains scattered across Randland? lol kinda makes u think huh?
Jerry Bennett
267. Isvarden
o yeah and i love Cadsuane because se had the bojingles to do what no other AS has been able to do. teach Rand something, the act that she would not shirk her duty even at the risk of excecution from sight of the the man shes trying to teach, come on u have to admit the woman has what it takes to get things done. and if it werent for her nynaeve would still be a simpering girl.
John Massey
268. subwoofer
You had me until you started talking about SWSNBN.

For shame!

Fain. Well the dagger is still there. Didn't the text say somewhere that every pebble in the place was tainted and if someone took even that, Aridhol would live on?

Thomas Keith
269. insectoid
Am I seeing things, or is Isvarden using my avatar? OH the shame!

EDIT: Switched to the red to avoid confusion. For Now.

Jerry Bennett
270. Isvarden
srry 0_o just dont want the same thing millioins of ppl on this site have......... u just happened to have a nice looking one, lol, if i find one of the great serpent or a heron..........

yeah arihdol will live on with the dagger i guess, but im sorry, only moiraine is better at acting as an AS should than Cadsuane, and yes i will use her name cause so much of this next book will result from actions she has taken, secretively or openly. The woman needs recognition! If i get a bad rep for opinionating that she is a good characer, if not a good character model, even tho there are plenty of HIlarious moments between her and any other AS, then so be it, she's too much of a cornerstone for the weaving of the web, like the 100th or so.......... :P
Maiane Bakroeva
272. Isilel

Far be it from me to suggest that things haven't become massively better for a significant part of world population, but neither is it implausible to have an octogenarian character in a fantasy novel, when they very much existed iRL too, despite comparatively vastly inferior medicine, hygiene, etc. Was it usual to reach such an age? No. But neither was it unheard of.

Check this character, for instance:ötz_von_Berlichingen

and the list of Popes will provide some more.

Re: sterilization in WoT, I am fairly sure that they disinfect wounds with spirits on several occasions.
Also, as has been already quoted, they know to wash hands - which is more than doctors knew iRL until the Crimean War or so.

It also helps re: epidemics that they have a tradition of boiled-water beverages. Nobody seems to just drink water, it is always tea or spirits.

Nor do people just throw offal into the streets, at least when things are going normally. Etc.

Lsana @203:

Not trying to talk you into liking Mat, but I do want to point out that his sense of duty is the tool that the pattern uses to keep him in the story.

Only some of the time and only short-term. Yes, if something happens right in front of him, he jumps in. Which is of course a very worthy course of action and the reason why the Pattern had to lob all these situations at Mat until it got tired and just held him directly ;).

But Mat would have walked out of the story in Tear, if the Pattern didn't prevent it, as RJ himself clearly reiterates many times. He also would have walked off once he was in Cahirien. Mat is not for the long haul - at least he wasn't until he was forced by the Pattern so often that even he became convinced that getting out of the dodge was not an option.

Which makes him inferior to all other major characters, who would have stayed the course, Pattern or no.
They saw that the world was in danger and wanted to do their bit to save it.
They had talents and they honed them into skills that would help them do so.
Mat? Even the Pattern knew that he couldn't be bothered and force-fed him the skills fully formed. Etc.

His issue with needing to be "forced into staying in the story" is that he doesn't believe it, he doesn't really believe that it is all foreordained

Well, if everybody thought like that, the world would have already ended, no? Because everybody who "was not foreordained" would have just cowered away somewhere until it would have been too late. Like Mat would have, if the Pattern left him this option.
"All that is needed for Evil to triumph is for the good men to do nothing" and all that jazz.

That's my beef with Reluctant Heroes, actually. They are a beloved trope because they are clearly not glory-seekers and down-to-earth, I think... but also because it is such a convenient wish-fulfillment trope.
It is easy to fantasize that all that is lacking are the right circumstances to show one's intrinsic heroic stuff :) and project oneself into such a character.
Jerry Bennett
273. Isvarden
the whole reason that Mat is the reluctant hero, combined with an unparralleled battle expertise, is because he will be one of the biggest parts in the last battle. does anyone even remember the quote "may those who sound my call think of salvation and not glory"? he wil be the general for the last battle, perrin the forerunner with the wolf nation, and Ran will go forth to Shayol Ghul so the little seanchan girl can help him either reseal the dark ones prison, or some other such, man run-ons are awesome, lol. either way he will have to spill his blood on the slopes, but let us not forget that nasty scar that will not heal and keeps breaking open.

btw just now wrote this post cause i just now finished reading all o ur posts, lol

as for the OP theory, the OP is everywhere in and of everything and yet is existing visibly in a different plane, ie. u cant just see or touch it. yet it is everywhere and is the reason grass grows and lions kill or whathaveyou. I think in the AOL the created leylines that harnessed and brought physical properties to the OP, during the breaking, all of theese couldve easily been destroyed.

the powerful man angreal theory, u cant just keep thinking that all the angreal sa' angreal and ter' angreal in the world are only on this little 3rd of a continent, we've only experienced about 300 square yards of Seanchan, when Aviendah makes her first gateway, and one of the seanchan blood has knowledge of the type of lock boxes that the horn is kipt in, and can even open it when fain takes it to him. Come on ppl there are channelers in Shara and they walk around with tattooed faces, differences in every land could mean different technological advances in every land. Think of it, the Seanchan have been making a'dam for centuries at this point.

now the creation of angreals and whatnot. size may be relative, compasition would be a big part, but the most important factor would be WHO was making them, if Egwene can make a mile and a half long harbor chain instantly cuendillar, then she would be better at making a new, for the sake of discussion, Callandor, than Leae, who takes an hour to make a clay bowl cuendillar. and a full circle of egwenes with a Rand to finish the circle could possibly make something verging on the power of the choeden call. Also the materials used might not be as important as u think because anyone with the OP could manimpulate the matter into, say, plasma, or a pure elemental equivolent.
Jerry Bennett
274. Isvarden
Also, thinking about the hawk at the top, they are fly Manetherin's flag again.

im just now posting all of this stuff cause i was just now able to read all of the posts in this line, lol
John Massey
275. subwoofer

I can't hear you, not only because I am partially deaf...
sits on lawnchair crunching bacon

Round two!

Oh the cholesterol...

Jerry Bennett
276. Isvarden
lol, ive been thinking about it, and the manetherin banner has a falcon with its wings spread showing two wings, so there goes that idea

edit: looked at the symbol at the top of the page again, i meant spread to each side.
Jerry Bennett
277. Isvarden
kk im sorry for this if i come out as a complete noob cause i am for the site, why doesnt misforuona have a shoutbox? srry for going off topic
Bonnie Andrews
278. misfortuona
Problem solved. My privacy setting was set so only those people I had formed a connection with could shout.
I'm open to any complaints or compliments now.
Thanks to all on Gabbly.

Debbie Solomon
279. dsolo
Just a short comment on Randland medical practices. I'm rereading TSR, and in the segment after Elayne and Rand first do their kissyface thing, she's thinking about how he takes her advice on running a kingdom. One sentence jumped out at me - "Which crafts to protect and how, and which not, and why, might be dry decisions, but as important as how to care for the sick." I also think that part of the reason that people are healthier, is that the population density is not too high for the resources. They're just building back up after the Breaking, but they didn't revert to complete savagery and ignorance, just technology became much more primitive. Randland is only superficially like our Middle Ages.
Jerry Bennett
280. Isvarden
you're right, the instances that make up the world of Randland are completely different from the way our history was spun out, so many key points, differences and likenesses, are interspersed, as a parrallel of our "web" to the one RJ wove.
Thomas Keith
281. insectoid
Isvarden @270: Thank you for your honesty. I guess I'm just a little protective of my pic because I made it myself. :) Glad to have you aboard.

Sub @275: LOL

Jerry Bennett
282. Isvarden
kool didnt know bout that im crappy at computer manipulated pixels of any kind, lol, unless i have a controller in my hands.
Janet Hopkins
283. JanDSedai
re: Isvarden @ 264--
I did not know that Padan Fain could step in or out of the Pattern. I think you are thinking about Isam/Luc. Am I correct in assuming English is not your first language?

And as to people who think Mat has it easy; yes he survives, but he has scars to earn it. Nerim has sewed up his hide often, and Tylin spends a lengthy night exploring his scars. And at Cairhein, he could have bugged out; he didn't have to get those soldiers out, too.

I'm gonna contradict myself on the no pestilence topic I started earlier. I think life has been going downhill for Randland for 2000 years, certainly since Artur Hawkwing. Remember all those countries that are no longer on the map? And the depopulation of vast tracts of land? I guess a few long-lived individuals do not a population make.
Alice Arneson
284. Wetlandernw
God keep your land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand with thanks to thee.

Congratulations, Canadians! I'm proud to be your neighbor and friend.
Matthew Smith
285. blocksmith

I'm thinking next Lent you may want to give up something different...I suggest leavened bread. You can still enjoy your bacon and the ability to sample some Woodford Reserve (my new favorite) or 12+ Scoth will make you forget about toast.


You are right on with the sewers...I mentioned this on a different thread (reread 13 or 14...old age creeping up). It was the basis for my tongue in cheek statement that Civil Engineers should rule the world.

Undeniably, improvements in wastewater disposal reduced outbreaks of water-borne diseases (cholera, dysentary, etc) which improves general health/longevity...all other things being equal. Based on the examples you gave (I found one, so thanks for bolstering), clearly most, if not all, of the cities employ some form of wastewater management. And its proper function is recognized as being important.

Finally, congrats Canada. A hard-fought game and well played.
Jay Dauro
286. J.Dauro
Blocksmith @285

While I am usually glad to steal the credit for anything good, I will have to say that bad_platypus did that work. I'm just not a Civil Engineering kind of guy.

However, I do appreciate good sewers, having had to deal with the lack of same at times.
287. nor3
re: long lives: It just occured to me that people are underestimating the importance of the yellow ajah here.... I mean, a 3000 year old organisation with enormous political, monetary and magical influence, dedicated to the preservation of life.... Even though the average person isnt likely to meet a yellow sister in daily life, I'd be prepared to bet that the yellow sisters would be keen on education programs for the nobles... Impress upon them the importance of sanitation, medicine, etc.... The nobles enforce these rules among the common folk, probably by way of the wisdoms... Hey presto! An entire society with a working knowledge of how to keep healthy and avoid infection. Even in countries that despise the AS (eg. Amadacia), the obvious benefits of these practices will make them catch on. Meanwhile, the yellows' eyes and ears can keep them abrest of any budding epidemics, which the yellow sisters themselves can step in and handle. All adds up to : long-lived populations.
288. Anthony Murphy
Can anyone tell me why the e-book versions of these books don't have table of contents function? Cover art and chapter icons are great, but for rereading a book you really need to be able to jump to a chapter.
Marcus W
289. toryx
nor 3 @ 287:

Let's not forget that pretty much every society in primary Randland has a Healer of some sort, whether it be Wisdom, Mother, or what have you. They seem to be treated considerably better in Randland than they tended to be historically in our history, except in Amadicia or whatever land Whitecloaks are particularly strong in.

In our own world's history, a lot of the time women (or men) who had knowledge of healing and herbs had the tendency to get burned as a witch. Even if that sort of thing wasn't going on, they tended to have to lay low.

That's religious fanaticism for you.
Janet Hopkins
290. JanDSedai
Yes, Toryx, the almost total eradication of mid-wives in US culture is a case in point. Even if the mid-wives were not Wiccan, the implication that women could overcome the pain of childbirth smacked of heresy to (mostly male) church leaders. So now women go the a hospital and spend thousands of dollars to do what a bucket at the end of the bed would do.

Did anyone notice in WH that Slayer was arrested for the murders in Far Madding? I didn't, the first half-dozen times I read it. Of course, they won't have him in custody very long...

My father was an omniverous reader and never critised by bent for sci-fi. But once when I took him some mystery novels, he remarked that I was reading "real books".
Thomas Keith
291. insectoid
JanDSedai @290: Are you sure they weren't referring to Lan? He was there too. (don't have the book handy)

Jerry Bennett
292. Isvarden
283. JanDSedai

no and sorry a was born american, as much as i hate to admit it sometimes, lol, but i am talking about Fain later on i think maybe around TSR or so,

"and he then stepped out of the pattern, to someplace in between, where he could see the threads of the pattern as if looking at intricate lace, to come out later.....blah blah blah,"

Cant recall all of it, so thats not a quote, but i am pretty sure he used a gateway to reach this place "outside" of the pattern, man i need to catch up again, im still at the beginning of Leigh's re-read of the second book.

O yeah, and I love hamburgers, watching tv, playing videogames, and generally sitting on my butt. Does this sound like English is my first language to any of you? lol I just dont use proper literacy most of the time cause, hey we're in a forum. I could say it like this if i wanted: Hay wee r n a forum, ok enough rambling. (wish i were born German btw)
Alice Arneson
293. Wetlandernw
Isvarden @292 - When you get to your book, please find the passage. I can't find any examples of Fain using gateways or going outside the Pattern. Moridin, yes; Fain, no.

As for literacy... if you've been reading this "forum" you might notice that most of us here manage at least a fair semblance of it. The grammar, capitalization, and punctuation - or rather the lack thereof - you've been using make it painful to read your posts. Not that you care, necessarily, but a small effort on your part would make some of us more likely to actually read your posts instead of just scanning them or dismissing them altogether. Just saying...
John Massey
294. subwoofer
@Wet, I'm sorry too. Hope we can still be friends:)

Jerry Bennett
296. Isvarden
Hey it's cool. I can understand that, and apologize to the general populace of this forum that does value grammar. I understand, but am usually typing too fast and trying to keep up with my thoughts.

Better? :P
Ron Garrison
297. Man-0-Manetheran
Better to type slower and be understood than to put everything down and communicate nothing! Thanks. We appreciate your thoughts - when we understand what you are trying to say. Peace.
Jerry Bennett
298. Isvarden
It's cool I will edit from now on. ;P
Janet Hopkins
299. JanDSedai
And now for something completely different!
Loony theory!

Mat and Thom will get to the Tower of Ghenji, only to be told that Moiraine has already been put out into the world. In WH ch 14 "What a Veil Hides", Tuon speaks to her damane. "Tiny Mylen, shorter even than Tuon herself", was bought on the docks and not expected to live. But Tuon sucessfully trained her, and now, "no one would believe now that once she had called herself Aes Sedai." And when Mat is trying to spy out the Aes Sedai damane, he sees a "short, pale woman who reminded him of Moiraine." Pale of complexion, as opposed to the dark Seanchan.

I know that she cannot really be Moiraine, but RJ has thown us for some loops before, and it is worth considering, IMHO.
Janet Hopkins
300. JanDSedai
And now for something completely different!
Loony theory!

Mat and Thom will get to the Tower of Ghenji, only to be told that Moiraine has already been put out into the world. In WH ch 14 "What a Veil Hides", Tuon speaks to her damane. "Tiny Mylen, shorter even than Tuon herself", was bought on the docks and not expected to live. But Tuon sucessfully trained her, and now, "no one would believe now that once she had called herself Aes Sedai." And when Mat is trying to spy out the Aes Sedai damane, he sees a "short, pale woman who reminded him of Moiraine." Pale of complexion, as opposed to the dark Seanchan.

I know that she cannot really be Moiraine, but RJ has thown us for some loops before, and it is worth considering, IMHO.
Janet Hopkins
301. JanDSedai
ps-- I don't know why this posted twice, but at least I got 300!
Tricia Irish
302. Tektonica
JanDSedai@299 & 300:

That is a looney theory all right! But interesting! I'll be interested to see what the resident gurus have to say. All those connections never crossed my mind.
Imagine Rand's surprise (if) he sees Moraine with Tuon at some pow-wow. Can you say "ballistic"?

But hey.....Wasn't Mylen with the rescue party that came for Tuon at the time she married Mat? Wouldn't Mat have recognized her?
303. nor3
O_0 Rand finding out Tuon has Moirane as a damane = dead Tuon.

Really hope it's not true, I heat Moirane, I really hope she doesn't have to suffer damane-ship.

304. nor3
Also, hurray for grammar!
Kyle Day
306. gato
*I tried to reply previously, but I'm thinking that including a link in my very first post is what got me flagged for spam? I dunno*

Anyway, @JanDSedai 299 & 300:

I thought your theory was interesting, so I googled "Mylen WoT" to find out if there were any other clues that she might be Moiraine, and came up with the Encyclopedia WoT entry for Sheraine Caminelle.

Apparently Sheraine was captured at Falme in TGH and renamed Mylen.
Birgit F
307. birgit
Mylen was the Aes Sedai whose capture Domon witnessed in Falme. Her name is Sheraine Caminelle.
308. alreadymadwithmosighting
Agreed. Mat saw Mylen again when Furyk Karede came for Tuon. That time he was with Thom and Talmanes. Two other people likely to recognise Moiraine.
Plus, IIRC the Aes Sedai also positively identify Mylen when she came with Furyk. Definitely not Moiraine.

And yes. If Rand saw Moiraine collared, whoever was holding the leash and everyone around her would be toast.
Matthew Smith
309. blocksmith

Thanks for the correction...


Sorry for the copyright infringement. Grabbed the post number just in front of yours.

Relative to Fain's powers...I recall RJ stating that Fain had come into possession of some special abilities (commanding/controlling Myrdraal, identifying DFs, the seizure inducing ability, being able to creep-out readers in one sentence) but I don't recall anything about stepping outside the pattern. I'm with Wetlandernw on this one...likely confusion with Moridin or Slayer.
310. Gentleman Farmer
Speaking of Fain's powers, perhaps tangentially related I have been wondering what effect Halima was having on Egwene.

The reason I mention Fain, is that Fain caused people in contact with him to become suspicious of those around them, often in a relatively short time. I can't recall if his reference was to Elaida or to Pedron Niall, but it was to the effect of she might possibly still trust her own mother, but never al'Thor.

In regards to Halima/Aran'gar, Egwene is pretty dismissive of the likely effect of her prolonged contact with the Forsaken, but I think as her interaction with Halima went on, there seemed to be three issues which became increasingly important to Egwene:

1. The three oaths. I know this has already been discussed to great extent, so I won't address it further;

2. The importance of the White Tower over all else. Egwene became increasingly single minded about the importance of the Tower and the importance of re-uniting the Tower, irrespective of what other events might be going on in the world. She views it as home, with very little rationale (seeing as she spent less time in it than any other Aes Sedai), and seems to have a fundamental attachment to it that hurting the tower feels like hurting herself.

I can't really understand why that object would be useful to the Forsaken, whether or not they had expected her to succeed in her reunification, but I think it is a character change that gets stronger as she spends more time with Halima, and which hadn't really been foreshadowed by her time with the Aiel.

3. As she spends more time with Halima, she makes more and more comments about Rand "running around loose", and needing to be guided. Notwithstanding her comment/challenge to Elaida about how she would have handled Rand, her thoughts throughout the later books all deal with controlling Rand. I wondered if perhaps this was part of Halima's influence, perhaps in conjunction with getting a binder (of the type Sammael thought he could get) into Egwene's hands for the Tower to control Rand.

This to my mind is the most likely goal Halima was trying to achieve was to sow seeds of suspicion and a need to control between the White Tower and the Dragon Reborn. This would also be consistent with Alviarin's approach with Elaida so the Dark One could have been achieving the same end with either prospective Amyrlin.

The main thing I have difficulty understanding from this plotline is how Semirhage seems to be having problems controlling Tuon, because of her strong will, Rahvin knew he was having trouble controlling Morgase, for similar reasons, yet Aran'gar is convinced she has Egwene under her thumb. Perhaps because she's being more subtle with her uses of compulsion, or has more skill at it than Semirhage? Perhaps it's just bravado and she really is only fooling around with Egwene, but as one of the two first direct reports to Shaidar Haran, I would have thought she'd have been given a task to fulfill, and nothing Egwene seems to have been doing, nor anything indicated by Aran'gar would imply that she was at all stymied or unsuccessful in her direct interactions with Egwene.
Birgit F
311. birgit
Even more wondrous, in its own way, was the feeling that the bridge was taking her home. More wondrous, and shocking. Emond's Field is my home. But it was in Tar Valon that she would learn what she must to keep her alive, to keep her free. It was in Tar Valon that she would learn - must learn - why her dreams disturbed her so, and why they sometimes seemed to have meanings she could not puzzle out. Tar Valon was where her life was tied, now. If she ever returned to Emond's Field - the "if" hurt, but she had to be honest - if she returned it would be to visit, to see her parents. She had already gone beyond being an innkeeper's daughter. Those bonds would not hold her again, either, not because she hated them, but because she had outgrown them.

TDR, ch. 11

Eg saw Tar Valon as her home since she first returned there from Falme. It is typical for her that she identifies with the culture in which she is at the moment, so it is only natural that she becomes very Aes Sedai as the Amyrlin.
312. Lsana
@310 Gentleman Farmer,

I believe the theory is that the one that Halima had "under her thumb" was not Egwene but Sheriam. Egwene might not have been under Halima's thumb, but Sheriam surely was. Though there are problems with that theory too: everyone else's "charge" is someone who could potentially be of great help to the light. Sheriam is already Black, so other than beating her up for the fun of it, I'm not quite sure what Halima was supposed to do with her.

I do like your theory, though, that Halima may have influenced Egwene more subtly than Egwene realizes, and it may play out still...
Karen Fox
313. thepupxpert
Also Moiraine was considered short but she was never referred to as "tiny" or "child-like" liike Tuon was.
Jerry Bennett
314. Isvarden
Everything happens for a reason, Shaidar Haran and Halima both thought she would still be giving her little massages while Egwene was sitting soundly in the tower. The suspicions of I cant remember which character, and the Seanchan attack of the tower prevented that.

Another theory, the question was asked if TEOTW was used as it was meant to be used. Yes, if the borderlands had gotten taken over then Tarmon Gaidon would have started. This was Rand's first thought process interaction with Lews, the NOT HERE stuff is all about where he needs to be, Shayol Ghul, but it would have been doomed from the start if he hadn't have exactly what he did when he did. So instead of mending the Bore as the AS originally created it for, it was used to keep the pattern going and put a stop to it instead of stating another age.
Janet Hopkins
315. JanDSedai
Thanx to gato & birgit for clarifying Tuon's Aes Sedai damane. I mean,I know Mo is in the ToG, because she knows she is, as per her letter to Mat. But when I re-read that, I had to think.

And Gentleman Farmer, I agree that Halima's influence on Egwene is disturbing. But i can't explain it either.
Sam Mickel
316. Samadai

Interesting theory on The Eye of the World.
317. nor3
re: TEoTW : Didn't it say somewhere that the whole point of the Eye was purely to protect the Horn and the Banner, which were prophesised to be crucial to the light's victory? The fact that it could be used to blow lots of things up (including the DO's prison) was just a coincidence.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Janet Hopkins
318. JanDSedai
Yes, Isvarden, I have always wondered why the Eye o t World was squandered in a small (by cosmic standards) battle, and toasting a Forsaken who didn't stay dead. But Rand did what needed to be done at that time, and wishing for more won't help.

Thanx for the effort in editing your posts! It makes them easier to read and reply to.
Tricia Irish
319. Tektonica

Very astute observations about Egs. I've been disturbed by her change in viewpoint about the oath rod, Rand and the Tower integration (with Kin, WO's, etc.) since she became Amyrlin. Sure she is being educated by Siuan, and influenced by others, but she is a pretty strong cookie and was pretty indoctrinated by the WO's. I have been disappointed in her narrowing of viewpoint.

Perhaps Halima was doing a mind control thing over her. Headaches, spying on her dreams, and no doubt influencing them, why not these ideas too. Interesting thoughts...thanks.
Alice Arneson
320. Wetlandernw
GentlemanFarmer et. al. - Good points on Halima's purpose regarding Egwene. It may well be that as things stood when Halima made her/his report, everything was going according to plan. If things had continued as they were... but they didn't. Jahar & Merise "outed" Halima, so everything went sideways on that path. I, too, have often wondered about Egwene's attitude toward the Oath Rod and whether Halima was influencing it.

I still think that her primary purpose was to keep Egwene from effective Dreaming, but it's entirely probable that setting up or reinforcing certain ideas would also have been part of her task. I'm guessing (hoping?) there are some big RAFOs coming up in this regard. Of the three you listed, I'm not so sure the second is likely, but the first and third seem very plausible to me.

Did we see anything of Halima at all in TGS? I could almost wish for the ebook, if only for the text-search possibilities!
Thomas Keith
321. insectoid
Wet @320: Re: Halima in TGS... I'm fairly certain she never showed up, nor was even mentioned. Perhaps she'll show up in ToM.

Alice Arneson
322. Wetlandernw
insectoid - Thanks for the confirmation. It's good to know I'm not losing it completely.
Matthew Smith
323. blocksmith

Jahar and Merise provided the info that a female was channeling Saidin, but it was Romanda (or Lelaine, can't recall which exactly) that made the connection of AS dying/vanishing by the power but no Saidar used and the connection of Halima to Cabriana Mecandes.

Sorry, not trying to be picky, just wanted to clarify.
Jerry Bennett
324. Isvarden
320. Wetlandernw

I know its at the very end of one o the books when Aran'gar and ( is it Osengar) can't remember, were both ressurected, so that would make it the book right before the one we're on right? And yeah, if events had kept going te way they were, Halima would probably have control of the entire WT by now.

318. JanDSedai

At first the only thing Moiraine knew of TEOTW was that is was a huge pool of pure saidin, and said something to the effect of. "It would be the only way to mend the Dark One's prison." They had no clue at the time what they would find at the bottom. I've also wondered, if one of them had swum down into the pool, without using it, wouldn't it have been like swimming down into the pool that keeps toic waste stable in a reactor. If so, good call on thier part for not jumping on in, lol.
325. alreadymadwithhalima
Isvarden @324
Even if Egwene would still have been able to successfully reunite the White Tower despite Halima's meddling, such a reunification would lead to an overlapping of Aran'gar and Mesaana's respective turfs. Turf war/catfight anyone?
326. nor3
Didn't Halima and Mesanna have a truce, possibly with Demandred....? It's quite possible I've completely mixed this all up though....
Jerry Bennett
327. Isvarden
Remember: in the end Shaidar Haran is holding the cards, we have to think of what HE wanted to happen at the time. Maybe a "Hey you stay in the tower, hey you go to Seanchan." or some random crap. Has anyone discovered which Forsaken brought about the fall of the Seanchan Empress? Im guessing it IS one of the Forsaken that does it anyway.
Jerry Bennett
328. Isvarden
Just a random thought. How does Thom not die in Whitebridge? I mean, I know "he's a gleeman, so he's not goin down like that" and whatever, but did Jordan ja ust forgo the whole "Well that blade was forged on the slopes of Takan'Dar(I think thats the name) and so Thom should have been badly poisoned. Unless: loony theory no. 1, Thom is a Forsaken, which i highly doubt, so that's probably what will actually happen.
loony theory no. 2, Thom is a high ranking darkfriend, with big connections, which is a little easier to believe so is definately wrong, lol...or.....
loony theory no. 3, Thom is really just that awesome, and can dodge a blade better than any man.(He is a gleeman/ex-court bard after all) oddly enoough this theory is hardest for me to believe, perhaps because darkfriends and Forsaken are all popping up and being reborn all willy-nilly later on. I dunno, maybe RJ just makes me way too paranoid.
Jerry Bennett
329. Isvarden
Another loony theory. If the Whitecloaks hadn't suppressed so much info getting out of Toman Head at the beginning, The Return would have failed. It is obvious the Questioners, or whoever are giving orders to theese detatchments is obviously a DF. I mean, if you heard about an invasion on your continent, would you be like:"OK, yeah, AS and monsters invading, lets go the other way." Ok I would too, but not or the same reason, lol. Good thing Bornhald was all like,"Screw that! I wanna go kill theese suckas!" (srry had to on that :P)
Sandy Brewer
330. ShaggyBella
Semirhage was the FS that killed the whole Seanchan royal family & half the court. She visited Suroth to tell her she can claim the title of Empress, if she can kill Tuon, in KOD, (sorry not POD I get them confused)

edited for clarity...tried to before but it would not work.
Jerry Bennett
331. Isvarden
0_o kills Tuon..... major flaw there, Tuon marries mat in the second latest book. Lately she be new Empress. I feel sorry for Mr. Mat now, heh heh, Mr. Reluctant Hero there is now, really, the thing he hates the most, royalty. Does anyone think Mat will even go visit Tuon before Tarmon Gaidon? I could see her putting a bounty on his head just to see him again, for like five minuites of "Hey, you intrigue me right now." Ten minuites later "Where did Toy go?"
Alice Arneson
332. Wetlandernw
Isvarden - Semirhage did the dirty in Seanchan. (Knife of Dreams)

The Fade didn't kill Thom because Thom wasn't his target; it was only interested in Rand and Mat. No, Thom isn't a Forsaken or a Darkfriend. He's good with his blades and quick on his feet, but not that good or quick. The Fade just wasn't interested enough to try harder.

Don't really have much response to your last, except that we know Carridin (who gave at least some of the orders regarding Almoth Plain) is indeed a Darkfriend. The Questioners as a whole, while not necessarily DFs, have their heads so buried in their own propaganda that they wouldn't know the Creator if he walked up and smacked them in the face. Or the Dark One, for that matter. (Either one would probably be accused of being a Darkfriend.) The same is true of most of the Whitecloaks, although fortunately to a lesser extent. Some are even clearheaded enough to care about the fate of humanity in general.

Semirhage told Suroth that she (Suroth) would be able to claim the throne after she (Suroth) killed Tuon. Which obviously didn't happen, but not for lack of (Suroth) trying.
Jerry Bennett
333. Isvarden
Maybe ShaggyBella was refferring to Tyrak then? No clue as to that. I just cant believe the whole setup for pretty much every Whitecloak that listens to officer banter to know of Perrin and hate him. He got the raw end of the deal on that one. The first time he runs into them, and the up and up of the Cloaks want to kill him from the first book on. Personal grudges are started and followed well into the series a million books later. I just keep waiting for one of them to accost Perrin to his face one day, and him saying something to the degree of,"Wait, Whitecloaks? Oh you guys, yeah you hate me dont you? Wow, so what did I do again?"
334. alreadymadwithjaichim
nor3 @326
It was Semirhage, Mesaana and Demandred who had a threesome going. Halima was at that time cozying up to Graendal.
Janet Hopkins
335. JanDSedai
Most of the Forsaken were already "embedded" in their cover identities before Shadar Haran makes an appearance. So they have had almost two years to wreak havoc (less for the ones that are already dead)!

And as for the ones that didn't stay dead, there are several factions, with Graendal playing both sides of the fence. Of course, there is now mostly Moridin's faction, with Demandred still the be heard from.

Let's see; Aginor/ Osan'Gar/ Dashiva dead
Be'lal/ Lord Samon of Tear dead
Rahvin/ Lord Gaebril of Andor dead
Sammael/ Lord Brend of Illian dead
Graendal/ Arad Doman dead
Asmodean dead
Semerhage/ Anath of Seanchan dead
So seven of the 13 are dead. that leaves

Balthamel/Aran'gar / Halima on the run
Demandred haven't seen his alias
Ishamael/ Moridin
Mesaana/ White Tower unidentified
Lanfear/ Cyndane soul-trapped by Moridin
Moghedien soul-trapped by Moridin
note: we have not seen Moghedien since the Cleansing

And trying to remember my point in doing this...
That many more plot threads to tie up. But with Dark Friends poppin' up all over, RJ/BWS may have to do some wholesale killing!
Thomas Keith
336. insectoid
JanDSedai @335: I hate to contradict, but we have seen Moggy since the Cleansing—in KoD ch. 3. (I don't have the book handy, but I trust the Encyclopaedia WoT.)

Janet Hopkins
337. JanDSedai
Oh well, my bad. I was trying to do this from memory. I had a theory that she died then, and we don't have to worry about her. But what are the odds that Halima was hiding out at Greandal's place when it was balefired?

And besides, you love to contradict!
Antoni Ivanov
338. tonka
I am not sure that Aginor/ Osan'Gar/ Dashiva is dead. He was killed with fire , not balefire and it seems very likely the the Dark One would have brought him back for a 3th time.
Birgit F
339. birgit
I know its at the very end of one o the books when Aran'gar and ( is it Osengar) can't remember, were both ressurected, so that would make it the book right before the one we're on right?

They came back in LoC Prologue.
Jay Dauro
340. J.Dauro
Isvarden @333

"Oh yeah, I killed two Whitecloaks when they found us. I guess that's why they think I am not a good guy."

Yes, we know that the WC were going to kill/hurt Perrin and Egwene. But a WC would not consider that.
341. nor3
tonka@338 : I am not sure that Aginor/ Osan'Gar/ Dashiva is dead. He was killed with fire , not balefire and it seems very likely the the Dark One would have brought him back for a 3th time.

3rd?? You mean second, right??

But either way, probably not. Lanfear's new name, Cyndane, means 'last chance' in the old tongue. Lanfear was one of the DO's most powerful servants, and he only ressurected her the one time, and left her with a constant reminder (her name) that he wouldn't do it again. Doesn't seem likely he'd give Aginor/Osan'gar yet another shot.
Jerry Bennett
342. Isvarden
Wow, so are the whole list of dead Forasaken except tat one kiled with balefire, some of the later part of the series is still hazy to me until I get back to reread them.

It just greatly annoys me how just about every WC scene til the end we hear about a "burly blacksmith with yellow eyes that is surely a darkfriend" the guy im talking about later who holds a personnal grudge, and blames Perrin for the death of his father( I think) just seems like and easy way the Forsaken are turning everyone agaist everyone.

It's funny, the Last Battle will have a whole field of good characters watching each other so hard, they probably wont even see the mass army moving on them til either, Mat says " Hey let's do this." and dominates, or crazy asha'man war nonsense for about 5 pages.
Antoni Ivanov
343. tonka
@341 Yes, that is last chance for Lanfear. She screw up much more than Aginor. Aginor was obedient and didn't go on his/her own as Lanfear.
344. nor3
Lanfear screwed up more than Aginor? His first mission was being sent to the Eye of the World, where he was killed (quite quickly) by a completely untrained boy with no idea what he was doing. Then, he gets a second chance. His new mission is to get in with the Dragon's entourage. He ends up being ousted (I'm not sure if he was conclusively linked to the assassination attempt on Rand or if that was just the work of the rogue ashaman, but if he was, then thats yet another epic fail) and running away. He then manages to be the only forsaken to get himself killed at the cleansing. Not the best track record in the world.

Granted, Lanfear does aim to replace the Dark One, but I was under the impression that the DO wasn't aware of these plans. He didn't know that she severed Asmodean from the DO's protection, and she never acted on her plan to use the Choden Kal, so presumably that plan is still locked up in her head somewhere. The DO doesn't know she was 'going out on her own'.

And, untill the scene on the docks in Cairhein, which granted was a big failure, she wasn't doing too badly in her attempts to sway Rand to the Dark Side (at least, from an eveil point of view. We saw Rand telling her what she wanted to hear, where as the bad guys just saw an easily swayed young boy).

I'm not saying Lanfear's got a spotless record or anything, but if she's on her third strike, Aginor's well and truely gone already.
Alice Arneson
345. Wetlandernw
JanDSedai @337 - And besides, you love to contradict! - LOL!! How well you know him! ;)

I agree, it's a pity Moghedien didn't die at the Cleansing so we could forget about her. But you trigger an interesting thought... if Halima was hiding at Graendal's place when it was balefired, would it be possible for her to have done the Compulsion on whats-his-bucket, and Graendal to have been completely elsewhere and still alive? Or was that Compulsion definitely a saidar weave?

tonka @338 - I'm waiting for that shoe to drop...

To expand on Jan's list:
Aginor/ Osan'Gar/ Dashiva dead? by fire at the Cleansing
Be'lal/ Lord Samon of Tear dead by Moiraine's balefire
Rahvin/ Lord Gaebril of Andor dead by Rand's balefire
Sammael/ Lord Brend of Illian dead by Mashadar
Graendal/ Arad Doman dead? by Rand's balefire
Asmodean dead by means unknown, but definitely gone
Semirhage/ Anath of Seanchan dead by Rand's balefire

Two, Sammael & Asmodean, have been confirmed dead and not returning by RJ. Graendal is still a subject of much debate; the only evidence is that a very strong Compulsion disappeared when her palace was balefired. Some are convinced the evidence is enough and she's gone; others believe it was a trick of some sort and she's hiding out elsewhere. I do hope we get a reveal on this in the Prologue to TofM to settle it.

So there are five FOR SURE TOTALLY gone, two we're... less sure about, and six still running loose as far as we know. If we're really lucky (from a certain point of view), we'll find out in the next Prologue that Halima & Graendal were both at Natrin's Barrow and died in Rand's balefire, and Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva used up his last chance by getting himself killed a second time. I don't really think so, though. My current theory is that either Graendal or Halima bit it at the Barrow, but the other one and Aginor are still out there to trouble us. In any case, we know we still have Demandred, Ishamael, Mesaana, Moghedien and Cyndane to deal with. Which is enough to be going on with, in any case.
Birgit F
346. birgit
Maybe the person pretending to be Sammael is a new incarnation of Aginor. But Moridin would probably know if it was him.
Karen Jacobs
347. KJacobs
Wetlandernw @ 345:
"was that Compulsion definitely a saidar weave?"

I believe that saidar was confirmed by Nyn who checked 'whats-his-bucket' (I can't remember his name either!) both before and after the balefiring for affects of compulsion.
Alice Arneson
348. Wetlandernw
Thanks - I was too lazy to go look it up (along with the name - he was just such an impressive sort of guy...) Oh well. Another looney theory down the big swirly. On the other hand, Compulsion is more Moghedien's line anyway - maybe she was on loan to Graendal and got biffed.


Antoni Ivanov
349. tonka
Errm What ? Compulsion is Graendal's way, it is her mark. People should use the words Graendal and compulsion interchangeably because they are the same. Moggy is not big on compulsion, she uses it as any of the Forsaken when she has to (HA!) but Rahvin among the males and Graendal among the females are the Compulsion King and Queen among the baddies
Bonnie Andrews
350. misfortuona
I think Wet was saying that Moghedien would have been a more likly source of compulsion than Halima. This is figuring that it was NOT Graendal at the lake house.

Mis-got your back Wet, unless I'm wrong about what you meant :))
Tricia Irish
351. Tektonica
Wet & Several:

I just can't see RJ offing a different FS when Rand attacked Graendal's vacation digs. I mean, with no set up, mention, etc. I just don't think it's likely that another/or different FS was house sitting. Do you? I know many regret not getting to see Graendal bite it on screen, as it were, but it would be weirder if some other unlikely FS got offed instead. I'm just sayin'......

Thanks for the head count by the way, with alias's etc. It really helped me sort out who was gone and who was still playing the game.
Antoni Ivanov
352. tonka
@350 Probably you are right. Sorry wet.

Anyway I think Graendal was the source of the compulsion and that she is dead and she is the only Forsaken that died that day.
Bonnie Andrews
353. misfortuona
Tek@351 & Tonka@352
Yep Graendal's gone in my book too, however speculation is fun when there's no body and I do so love a good mystery.

Tricia Irish
354. Tektonica
Tonka, Wet, Mis:

Didn't mean to step on anybody for having Mis states, speculation is fun....

I do hope we get some more info on this in ToM. It was odd because it was off screen and had to be taken on faith and deduction.
Alice Arneson
355. Wetlandernw
misfortuona - you got it right. Thanks. I was thinking back to my previous post and didn't clarify. You mean not everyone can read my mind? (Don't say it, I know, "what mind?")

I don't have any vested interest in Graendal being alive, you understand. Just considering the possibility, since BWS very carefully didn't confirm (or deny) her death. Many have complained that it was "too easy" and since we didn't see her there, we don't really know she died. (Personally, I hope and believe she's gone.) However, there has been all manner of speculation regarding how she could have done the Compulsion thing and still not have been there to be balefired. Since I'm at home with a sick boy today, I'm indulging in idle speculation.
356. nor3
I doubt that there just happened to be another forsaken there at the time. Thats kinda like killing one of them off by having them slip in the bath and hit their head. Literary copout.

Although that would be kinda hilarious, in a way. ''I am Ishameal, betrayer of hope, Nae'blis, leader of the Great Lord's hordes, slaughterer of countless innoc- whoops!'' *smack*
Janet Hopkins
357. JanDSedai
I was just looking at the Timeline for WOT, because I'm expecting a considerable overlap in tGS and TOM. I noticed that Steve has has only tetatively assigned dates for events in TGS. I guess he will be looking for corroboration in later volumes.

But-- Graendal's Burrow is balefired on May 21; Rand leaves Arad Doman and Travels to Tear on May 29, and the meeting with Huron near Far Madding takes place on June 1, and Rand meets Tam later that same day. So, only a week, Randtime; plenty of time for overlap.

I guess a lot of the uncertainty about dates is that Rand has a "vision" of Mat and Perrin in Caemlyn on May 15. I was under the impression that these visions were simultanous. But on June 1, Perrin is on the Jehannah road, and Cadsuane goes to get Tam. There are a lot of questions to be answered.
Thomas Keith
358. insectoid
JanDSedai @337: ::sigh:: durned Aes Sedai. ;)

I do like to correct, if there's no one else around. But I don't really like to start arguments.

Nor3 @356: LOL

Sam Mickel
359. Samadai
I am pretty sure that Rand only sees Mat in Caemlyn.
Janet Hopkins
360. JanDSedai
Nevermind... Yes, Mat was in Caemlyn with Thom.
Perrin was in a separate vision with Galad. So, we've got 18 days to catch up on.
Jerry Bennett
361. Isvarden
Didn't a black AS disappear with Halima when she had to bug out? My theory would be that it was her who got balefired on the excavation day ( lol) and Halima and whats-her-whats are having a meeting or something.

Now for something completely off topic:

Isvarden's Crazy Theory no. 4,957: The Last Battle doesn't start until Avienha's about to pop with Rand's kids. Fain and Shaidar Haran work together to capture Rand, and he is turned by a circle of 13 and 13 (AS and Fades) and the whole Kinslayer starts up. At some point Aviendha ends up on Dragonmount in a battle, and dies having her kids, a son and a daughter, whom can both channel. They are both spirited off to the Land of the Madmen on a Raker just before it all goes south.

And voila, Brandon has the beginnings of his very own series of how they have to cleanse an entire world (except the Land they are on) of the DO's taint and eventually have to kill their own father and seal the DO back up.

Ok now I'm gonna brace myself for someone's proverbial slap........
Rob Munnelly
362. RobMRobM
@361. Slapping is too good for you. Please bend over. *spank*


P.s. Delana is the AS.
John Massey
363. subwoofer
@Isvarden- are you bringing jokes? Don't tell me, lemme guess, the kids are named Luke and Leigha and are separated at birth.... Does Lucas know you are doing this stuff? I see Storm Troopers paying you a visit in the near future.

Start looking about now. Maybe you could find all your marbles before they show up;)

@Wet- I don't mind;)

@JDS- Yay for 3 hunny! Good times, and a loony theory to boot!

@Blocksmith- thanks for your suggestion @285, but we are supposed to give up something that is important to us. I dunno, maybe next year I will go without blogging for Lent. Could kill me though.

Here's a thought, what if Hammy put some kinda mind link on Eggy. Eggy is Amrylin now, so somebody Travels out of the blue, touches Egwene and poof has effective control of the Amrylin and by proxy, the Tower. Just sayin'.

As for the Forsaken, I think Sammael could be on a comeback via the DO.

Jerry Bennett
364. Isvarden
There's no clue with the Forsaken sommetimes. New stuff pops up every now and then and something crazy happens that hasn't happened in a couple thousand years.

Aw, Sub, you caught me. I was gonna give a few more hints, but I figured someone would catch it. Someone might hate me for this, but sometimes I loathe the Star Wars series. Has anyone heard the expression, "Simpsons did it!"?
craig thrift
365. gagecreedlives

Never heard that expression before mate. Although my little friend Professor Chaos assures me that it is most annoying.

Oh and Hi peeps. Back soon (hopefully)
Janet Hopkins
366. JanDSedai
And anyway, Isvarden, it is Elayne that is pregnant with the twins (boy and a girl). Aviendha will have four children, but Min says something will be odd.

Some people think that something is odd about the way the children are conceived (after Rand is dead?). And some think that something is odd about the children (maybe they have the Singing abilities?). Not sure we will find out, unless there is a Harry-Potter-eseque twenty years after.
Rob Munnelly
367. RobMRobM
366 - Rand will have a different body when the kids are conceived. Shh - don't tell anyone.
Matthew Smith
369. blocksmith

Don't dismiss the idea so pizza, no PB&J, no grilled cheese, no panini, no sub/grinders, no hamburgers/hot dogs on buns, no pulled pork with cole slaw on bulky roll. That is the very definition of sacrifice.

Regarding Graendal/Halima at the Barrow...

Loony theory...Halima is umm, having tea, with Graendal when the messenger arrives. Halima stays to watch G compel the messenger, says her goodbye to G with many a smoky look, and then opens a gateway to X. As she steps through and to the side of her/his gateway and is about to release the source, balefire comes erupting through the gateway (Or maybe the weave is destroyed by the balefire). Either way, Halima realizes what happens, has a very brief (say .33 seconds) of sorrow that her newest not longer around to have tea with and then dances a jig realizing she has climbed a rung on the Naeblis ladder.
Matthew Smith
370. blocksmith
Continued for Subwoofer@363 garlic bread, no english muffins/crescent rolls with breakfast, no biscuits, no bagels, no bread crumbs...
Tricia Irish
371. Tektonica

Where have you been? Lurking? Working? Come back to us!

How did Halima get into the Graendal Balefire discussion.....why not Moridan or some other FS? It seems so....random?
Kyle Day
372. gato
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I very well might be) but wasn't Halima trying to align herself with Graendal at some point?

If so, and she ran from the AS at the end of KoD, she could *potentially* be in the Barrow when Rand is prepping the balefire.

Halima feels Saidar being weaved, knows the weave, warns Graendal and they Travel out of there.

This doesn't explain why the compulsion weave disappears, of course.

Also I should note that I'm of the belief that Graendal bit it. But it's fun to play Devil's Advocate, even against myself.
Don Barkauskas
373. bad_platypus
JanDSedai @366:
Aviendha will have four children, but Min says something will be odd.

Some people think that something is odd about the way the children are conceived (after Rand is dead?). And some think that something is odd about the children (maybe they have the Singing abilities?).
And some people think that Aviendha will only have two and Min will have the other two.
Barry T
374. blindillusion
I believe it was in the Prologue to tGS that Halima made her move on Graendal.

I believe that would be the reason Halima showed up in Graendal's demise.

~ As for babies - I'm of the opinion that Rand will have been put into Moridin's body by the time he gets Aviendha pregnant.

Though I'm also starting to think it might be Min having the 2 of the 4 babies, but she cannot see that about herself.
Tina Pierce
375. scissorrunner
re: Avi's 4 babies
Elayne has 2, Min has 2
Avi ends up raising them??
Marcus W
376. toryx
The whole notion of Rand somehow ending up in Moridin's body is so repugnant to me that I might just throw the book across the room if it actually happens.
Bonnie Andrews
378. misfortuona
Blind, scissor
I begining to think the 2kids are Avi's 2 are Mins thing is the way this will go, unfortunatly that sort of means to me that Min bites it, and well that would make me sad.

Yep Rand in Moridin's body. ICK. But I think I said that somewhere before.

Mis-hoping to be wrong
Ron Garrison
379. Man-0-Manetheran
Hi all. LTNS!

Re. Graendal:
Remember that Sammael's offing was a little uncertain to most readers. It took RJ's confirmation to settle the issue. On first read, I doubted Graendal's death. On re-read, I'm convinced.

Wet: "Many have complained that it was 'too easy' and since we didn't see her there, we don't really know she died." Which is ironic as we are always offering up simpler ways for Rand and the SuperG's, et al, to move the story along!
Tina Pierce
380. scissorrunner
I mean Rand needs to be Rand. The whole reincarnation thing is OK - but the body swapping thing is just plain wrong. No-one on Team Light gets swapped like that. its strictly a Team Dark thing IMHO
Alice Arneson
381. Wetlandernw
Man-0-Manetheran @379 - Yes, I thought it was ironic too; after all the complaining about things being too drawn out, now there's complaining about it being too quick. I kind of see the point, but I also can't help but think that if we've only got two more books, even if they are huge, some things just have to be done without all the pussyfooting around. If only for that reason, I'm inclined to think that it's a done deal, and the evidence of Complusion removal was really intended to be something we could believe. After all, it's not like Graendal was going to stand there and face Rand in a head-to-head confrontation; it's just not her style, so it had to be set up as an ambush of sorts. The fandom being what it is, though, several (at least semi-) plausible scenarios have been proposed as to how she could still be alive. RJ being what he was, it's possible.

And yeah, to all those icking over the idea of Rand in Moridin's body... I'm with you in hoping NOT, but I'm not making any predictions. ;) They always go sideways on me. Just for the record, I think I might have to go compile my own private list of what I think will happen; then I can check back and see if I managed to guess right on anything. Could be a huge file, though, so I might not bother!
James Jones
382. jamesedjones
Re: something strange about Avi's kids

Too - many - jokes - about - strange - kids. What's an aneurism feel like?

Wasn't there something about her having all of them at once? Please let me know if anyone has the quote. It's also a possibility that, as a wise one and former maiden (who's married to the chief o' chiefs), she might adopt children from maidens.
Marcus W
383. toryx
wetlandernw @ 381:

I kind of see the point, but I also can't help but think that if we've only got two more books, even if they are huge, some things just have to be done without all the pussyfooting around. If only for that reason, I'm inclined to think that it's a done deal, and the evidence of Complusion removal was really intended to be something we could believe.

I'd really, really hate to think that Graendal's ending was written as it was for expediency. That's not a service to the story at all.

I haven't actually considered the possibility that it was done that way, myself. I'm just one of the doubters because it seems so odd for the writer to tell us in one passage just how clever and crafty Graendal is, only to show us her death by what is essentially (IMHO) a cheap trick.

I realize it seems kind of clever on the surface for Rand to send someone in so he'd come back all Compelled, but I have a hard time believing that someone as smart and capable as Graendal would fall for it. It's just too...obvious.

So in the end, I'd have to say that if Graendal is dead, whatever the reason, I'd be pretty disappointed.
Rob Munnelly
384. RobMRobM
Re ick - it is a handsome body of someone from the Borderlands. Fact that a Foresaken borrowed it for six months is not too icky for me.
Rob Munnelly
385. RobMRobM
In the good news Department, the ToM progress bar on Brandon's website finally moved forward for the first time in four months (he has been doing lots of rewriting in the mean time). Huzzah.
Janet Hopkins
386. JanDSedai
re: the icky thing
Moridin's body would have the advantage of having two hands, and no holes in his side. If you could just get over the saa...
Karen Fox
388. thepupxpert
OK here's a loony theory, what if there was so much balefire used in TG that it set time back 2 YEARS and then Rand was two-handed and no holes and everyone was left alive with no DO and they could all live happily ever after and have a dozen babies.

Umm... I thought not.
Janet Hopkins
389. JanDSedai
I've had a thought about RJ's writing style that's been percolating through my brain the last coupla days, and I want to see if I can verbalize it in a coherent manner.

RJ does not "tell" us things. Rather, he describes them, and lets us come to our own conclusions, which is why we are so often at odds about what we have read.

It has something to do with the "cinematic" POV that Brandon uses vs the 3rd person limited POV that RJ used. But the more I think on it, that's not entirely it. For instance, we don't get into Mat's head in TGS. We are told what he said and did, and that's why he felt "out-of-character". Because we did not get into the character's head, we didn't feel that "resonance" with the character. And I felt that way several other times in the book, that we are being "told" things, not neccesarily what the character said or thought.

So-- just some thoughts. I would need to read TGS again to have more fodder for my arguement.
Barry T
390. blindillusion
Well...who's to say the body swap has to be done Shadow style?
~Perhaps the Creator takes part...possible but not probable.
~Or perhaps the leakage already taking place between Rand and Moridin results in the swap.
~Perhaps Nynaeve figures out a way to do it.
~Maybe the procedure takes place in T'A'R.

Would it necessarily be a wrong if Rand was put into the body Moridin now posses if it was done by one of the Light’s factors? After all, the soul that that body once belonged to is gone as a result of the Shadow. If a deceased Rand can somehow be revived by being placed into that shell, so that he can continue on in Life, would it really be an evil act?

I'd argue that Rand deserves to be whole, and at peace, in this life before continuing on to the next.
Marcus W
391. toryx
JanDSedai @ 389:

Actually, I think you're making an excellent point. When I first started reading Sanderson's work I noticed the same thing right away.

RJ follows the literary tradition of showing, rather than telling. Sanderson is much more about the telling. He tells us what the characters are thinking or feeling. He tells us what's happening and what we're seeing without actually showing it to us to quite the degree that RJ did.

It stands out a lot in TGS when you can compare the writing with other novels WoT novels. Up until I read TGS, I hadn't realized just how good RJ is.

Of course, a lot of people would argue that Sanderson's method keeps the story moving along quite a bit faster. But I think you can still show the action without letting it bog down in too much detail.
Janet Hopkins
392. JanDSedai
Toryx, I think the difference can be attributed partly to the Generation Gap --the Sesame Street generation as opposed to the older group who learned to read from books, not television. And then there's Generation X, where cutting edge technology is used not to better humanity, but to play games.

Some people think that RJ gets too bogged down in detail, but I like the detail, and the way I am encouraged to pick out the relevant details.
Karen Jacobs
393. KJacobs
Re: the Rand/Moridin Body Swap

I have a hard time reconciling myself to this as a real possibility.

The poor guy just spent the better part of 12 books fighting against someone else (as he thought at the time) living in his head and potentially usurping his body --- now his 'essence' (thoughts/mind/feelings) might be transplanted into another body, essentially turning the tables and making Rand the usurper. Yes, I know the body would be just a shell, and hopefully it would mean that Moridin would be gone for good . . . but it just doesn't feel right. After everything he's been through, he really deserves better.

My money is still on Nynaeve to come through in the healing department.
394. ValMar

Very interesting point. It probably explains why so many books felt to me so plain/dull after those hectic 4-5 months when I read WOT's first 8 books in Spring 1999.
Rob Munnelly
395. RobMRobM
@393, etc. Rand's going to die. Three options - Rand/Moridin swap (mechanics to be determined); becomes a hero of horn, called by Mat's horn, pulled out physically (and healthy) by Nyn; or Nyn gets to heal death - but since that would keep him in his own body, with serious wounds that haven't been healed to date, that doesn't sound optimal. Of those, the swap doesn't sound so bad as long as DO is not the one doing the swapping and you can get rid of the Saa.

396. Gentleman Farmer
@389 JanDSedai, @391 toryx

A very good analysis. Now that you've brought it up, I can see it too. It does make the action seem to move faster, but perhaps without the depth we've grown accustomed to.

That being said, I actually think there are some instances where Sanderson's method differs from and perhaps improves on RJs, and I'm thinking (broadly) of two examples in particular.

Sometimes RJ just wasn't able to show enough from the characters' perspective and was forced into "telling" rather than showing. This happened most often (in my view) with Egwene and Elayne, and to a lesser extent with Gawyn and Galad. As a result, I tended to doubt what we were being told about those characters and rely on outside events to judge them. (e.g. Gawyn supposedly honourable, Egwene telling us that he could no more be disloyal than the sun could be dark, yet the guy has turned coat frequently enough even he probably doesn't know which side is right side out)

Sanderson hasn't had much opportunity with Elayne or Galad yet, but showing Egwene's and Gawyn's actions through the eyes of other characters, in the more cinematic style, I think helped them seem more sympathetic, and since it was consistent with the rest of the writing in TGS, I was more willing to accept the statements as true (e.g. believing Gawyn was acting with good intentions towards Egwene, and maybe even being a little torn between conflicting duties).

The other area is the new theme Sanderson seems to have introduced which was largely absent from the WoT before, which is the father figure role. He uses it effectively with Bryne, Tam and Thom (in a surrogate role with Mat). Thom's guiding father figure is much more effective I think with Mat than it had been with Elayne, drawing out both his character and Mat's in positive ways. RJ had used the father figure role a little bit between Tam al'Thor and Perrin, but I think this type of role was significantly expanded and made stronger in TGS, and I think a large part of it might be Sanderson's slightly different perspective style of writing.
Janet Hopkins
397. JanDSedai
Re-reading my last few comments, it seems that I object to BWS's writing style, but I was more pointing out the differences. Yes, a cinematic POV could be as good at "showing" vs "telling" as the 3rd person limited, if it is used correctly.

Maybe Brandon was projecting his view of RJ as a guiding light into the story of expanded father figures.
Ron Garrison
398. Man-0-Manetheran
Somewhere during the book signing, I seem to recall that Brandon remarked how Harriet was always asking him to go back and describe what he saw - asking him to expand on the imagery.
Steven Pattingale
399. Pattingale
A nuke is "obvious". @ 383 :)

The obviousness doesn't make it any less deadly. Rand totally outfoxed her, and it was awesome. Even the most clever Forsaken can make a mistake, and imho that's what happened. Rand ensured she was home, then nuked the place (well balefired). How many people could even wield that much of the OP, probably only Rand and a few others, so it wouldn't be something she'd have considered much. What else could she have done when the Dragon Reborn comes a knocking? Yes she could have run, and she may have considered that, but we've always seen the Forsaken written as terribly arrogant and full of themselves. I'm not surprised at all she stayed to see what he was there for, and what his next move would be. Too bad for her. MOA for Rand. :)
Ron Garrison
400. Man-0-Manetheran
And all this comes on the heels of the Domination Band, Semirhage, the truth about balefire. It was a Clint Eastwood moment.
Tricia Irish
401. Tektonica
gato@372 & Blind@374:

Thanks for the Halima/Graendal heads up....I forgot about him/her coming on to G at the FS wine tasting. I still don't think we'll get an "oops, Halima died with Graendal too" moment in ToM. It's not foreshadowed at all.....don't see that happening. I do think Graendal is gone tho....there was plenty of foreshadowing of Graendal's famous compulsion, that it makes Rand look oh so clever to have tricked her with it.

As for Rand in Mori's body.....At first it made me squirm, but I"m getting more used to the idea....still don't like it though. I don't care that it was some random guy from the Borderland's body, I just think Rand should still be Rand, genetically. I like RobM's theory about Rand dying, becoming a hero of the horn and being pulled of T'A'R by Nynaeve all shiny and repaired.

Sure don't like the thought of Min having two kids and Avi having to raise them as that means.......:-(( I think that alone could do Rand in.

Edit: Pattingale@399: You said it better! Wow...we hit 400
Ron Garrison
402. Man-0-Manetheran
Why wouldn't Rand remain the Dragon - to be reborn by the Wheel when needed again? The whole point of thwarting the DO is to make sure the big Wheel keeps on turnin'.
::cue music::
James Jones
403. jamesedjones
399 Pattingale

I think she followed the bait back to Rand. Wouldn't she want to see the DR unobserved (unobserved being the critcal element)? She was the world's best psychologist. Getting into someone's head necessitates observation of the subject.

The idea above is just my opinion, and we don't have all the mechanics of compulsion spelled out for us. It's possible that the effects of her level of weaving can only be removed completely through balefire. But it's also possible, although less likely, that the person who wove the compulsion could eliminate it completely. It would take some really fast, inverted weaves, but she could have started immediately after Nyn confirmed the initial effects.
Tricia Irish
404. Tektonica

If Rand dies and becomes a Hero of the Horn, even if he gets spun out, when he dies again, he'd be with the Heros again, yes? He would therefore remain the Dragon, right? Is that what you body switch?
405. HansG
I don't think the soul is tied to a particular body in the Wheel of Time. The bodies are born and rot and die, but the soul lives on to be reborn in a new body. The fact that the Dark One can do what he does, putting Ishy's soul into a body of the borderlands, demonstrates this.

Rand's 'bodily' death, or his transmigration into a new body, doesn't stop him being the Dragon anymore than being reborn in due time stops him from being the Dragon. It seems to me the same would hold if he evicts Ishy's soul from Moridin and moves in.
Ron Garrison
406. Man-0-Manetheran
Hero of the Horn and Dragon Reborn - not the same thing. Body switch? Phaw! What's the point? We may be headed to TG, but RJ has never given us any indication that this will be the last battle. In fact, he has told us just the opposite.

The first chapter of every (nearly every) book tells us that this is not the beginning, but [i][b]a[/b] beginning.

It's spelled out for us over and over again that the Dragon has been reborn over and over and over and over - when the Wheel needs him. Heroes of the Horn - a completely separate group of people. Called forth with the Horn when the Hornblower needs them.
407. nor3
MoM @ 406 : ''Hero of the Horn and Dragon Reborn - not the same thing...''

True, but Rand happens to be both. When the Heroes of the Horn turn up at Falme, they all recognise Rand (or rather, his soul). He's one of them.

''It's spelled out for us over and over again that the Dragon has been reborn over and over and over and over - when the Wheel needs him. Heroes of the Horn - a completely separate group of people. Called forth with the Horn when the Hornblower needs them.''

The Heroes are all subjects of the wheel, not the hornblower. They get spun out whenever the wheel needs them, to fight evil in various forms and keep the pattern in balance. Birgitte has been spun out numerous times to battle monsters and evildoers. The dragon has likewise been spun out many times to battle the DO himself. It just so happens that they also come out when the horn is blown. But they're ultimately servants of the wheel.
Alice Arneson
408. Wetlandernw
Hmmmm. We don't really know that Rand is at all tied to the Horn, do we? We only know that the Heroes recognize him, but maybe that's just because they hang out together in TAR between being spun out. The Heroes are spun out (i.e. born as babies, growing up with no knowledge of themselves in their former lives) as the wheel needs them, sometimes several times in a single Age. Any Heroes who are in TAR (i.e. not currently born to the waking world) are summoned when the Horn is blown. IIRC, the Dragon is only spun out once in an Age, and not necessarily in every Age. Also, IIRC, we have no evidence of him being summoned when the Horn is blown.

As I understand it, which could be completely wrong, every soul is reborn many times. This could be many times in a single Age, or just a few times, or whatever. We're not given the criteria by which the Creator (Pattern? Wheel?) determines how often you get reborn. Only a few of the millions of souls in the world are tied to the Horn, however. These are people who turn up heroic every time (?) they are reborn, and they have the added distinction of coming straight from TAR to fight on behalf of the Hornsounder. We've been given no understanding of the mechanism of rebirth, or where souls (other than the HH) "live" in between times. So... I don't think we have enough to prove that Rand is or is not a Hero. He's the Dragon, which is a fairly unique attribute, and we can only make guesses as to the implications for his soul, much less his acquisition of a new body.
Ron Garrison
409. Man-0-Manetheran
Well, yes. Ultimately everyone on the light side is a servant of the Wheel. But as Wet points out, just because the HoH recognize LTT or the Dragon doesn't necessarily mean he is a Hero of the Horn. Just sayin...
Jacy Clark
412. Amalisa
As for Rand/LTT being tied to the Horn... At Falme, Hawkwing told Rand that he had fought beside him (LTT) "times without number", and faced him "as many times". I don't think they could both be tied to the Horn but be on different sides of a conflict. Sooooo... Hawkwing is a Hero of the Horn. LTT is not.

At least, that's how I see it.

JanDSedai - nice analysis of the difference in writing styles, and how they impact the readers. Agree wholeheartedly.


Love the "Proud Mary" reference.

(And can we not imbed YouTube stuff anymore??)
413. Freelancer

I don't see Rand's method as obvious at all. Ramshalan doesn't know enough to give away the plot, is self-important enough that he doesn't have a clue that Rand is trying to do something clever. So he can't offer Graendal any useful information that might lead her to believe she's at risk.

Graendal's POV:

Lace-bedecked noble from town shows up as an envoy from the Dragon Reborn. Clearly he's a half-witted, self-important court puff with no business being out in the wild. His message, "The leadership of Bandar Eban, and all of Arad Doman is in disarray, and the Dragon Reborn is seeking out any who might assist in bringing order back to the city and the nation. He wishes a meeting with her ladyship to that end."

From this Graendal is supposed to determine that:

1. Rand intends an immediate attack
2. He's going to use balefire to do it
3. He knows of her liberal use of Compulsion, and he sent Ramshalan with no other purpose than to determine her presence by the existence of said Compulsion on him
4. He has a female channeler with him who would be able to read the weave of Compulsion on Ramshalan in order to confirm this test
5. He brought the male Choedan Kal access key, giving him enough power to balefire the entire fortress out of existence from a distance of several hundred spans

To say that presuming the above strains credulity is an understatement. Graendal is very smart, and also very careful. As soon as Ramshalan showed up, it seems the proper thing to do is erect a set of wards around the fortress to warn of any use of saidin, and set traps in certain rooms Rand would be likely to go to or be led to. Once the envoy has left, change appearance with Illusion into something like a servant. Then wait for Rand to appear. Why wouldn't Graendal be confident in her ability to protect herself within a fortified mini-palace? She could even hide herself with Mask of Mirrors and watch for him from an invisible location. There is no reasonable way for her to suspect that he was going to annihilate her entire location, hundreds of tons of stone, steel and timber, with the largest application of balefire ever employed. Ever.

Graendal is gone. The only thing more unlikely in my mind than the scenario of Graendal deducing Rand's precise method of attack from Ramshalan's visit, is the idea that the author would prepare such a brilliant scheme for Rand, with all the head-scratching over how to beat someone smarter than yourself, only to much later learn that you didn't. Besides, the instantaneous disappearance of Ramshalan's Compulsion is proof that Graendal "now" never used it on him, because she was burned back in time.
Thomas Keith
415. insectoid
Free @413:
with the largest application of balefire ever employed. Ever.
Except, of course, for all the cities balefired out of the Pattern in the War of Power. ;) It is the largest modern application of balefire.

(sorry for being nitpicky)

Speaking of balefire, where'd 414 go?

416. Freelancer
Drag. I submitted a comment, and THEN added a youtube link, hoping it would pass. No such luck.

Oh well, my comment was to blindillusion@22 (I know, ancient history, but I had been away for the week this thread began, hadn't gone back to the beginning before now)

Blind, your reference is to a movie with Kevin Spacey. A Turk told me.
417. Freelancer

See above for why 414 got jailed.

Hmm, yes, this is true. My apologies, I meant to specify the largest application of balefire ever by one channeler. Nobody had ever used the Choedan Kal before Rand, and he is as strong a channeler as has ever existed.
Barry T
418. blindillusion
Q: Is Sammael dead?

RJ: Jordan responded that Sammael was dead as of the end of A Crown of Swords. Jordan felt that the character was a "louse" and didn't deserve a dramatic death ala Rahvin or Be'lal. He deserved a very vague death and was killed by something that he didn't pay attention to.

Perhaps Jordan felt the same way about Graendal. That she deserved an off-screen death with no last words.

In truth, I really don't see why everyone is so...into... Graendal. We were told she is smart, but never shown anything...and sure, it was several key characters from the Age of Legends who made this claim...but still....

She's one of the Forsaken. To be honest...if the Light had had it's act together from the beginning...I wouldn't have been a bit surprised if all of them had been nixed by now.
Jerry Bennett
419. Isvarden
Wow, I stay offline for one whole day, and this is what happens. Apparently, our imagintaions are what's getting in the way of rational thinking. Come on people! Logic! Not what you want to happen, or fear, even though I cloud my own head by mmy crazy theories.

Ok, um, back to reality time.

The only implication that Rand dies at all is the Karetheon ( I know I prolly mispelled it, just got back from the local tavern ) Cycle prophecies stating, "and his blood shall spill on the slopes of Shayol Ghul" or something to that effect. Even though he already knows what he has to do to win, because he went through the door Ter'angreal.

Any black AS could've weaved Cumpulsion on that random guy's mind before Grenny's palace got balefired. My guess is it is Delana, or some other unfortunate that has had to flee because of being found out.

No Rand is not a HOH but is known by all the heroes because they retain all of their memories since they are being "sounded", heh.... horn jargon..... heh.

It does not matter if you work for the Light or not, everyone is a servant of the Creator, else they would have been created. Everything happens for a reason, the DO was created for a reason and everything will turn out "as the Wheel wills". There is no escape, just like there is no escape from being ta'veren.

While Brandon's writing style is certainly not horrid, I do very so much miss RJ's writing style....... I think we all do. Let's face it the man is gone, that is why so many people only saw the flaws in his writing style while he was alive, but now feel so nostalgic about it. I know I do. Maybe the series wasn't meant to be finished in this writing style,and maybe it was.

Honestly I believe that what happens, happens for a reason, maybe the same as the Aeil do. So let us rejoice, not in the the thought that this series is being finished in a different literary style, or that old habbits in the series are being put to rest, but the fact that the series IS being finished.

A great tale written by a great man. A toast to Robert Jordan, the Weaver of our beloved Pattern, may he always shelter in the palm of the Creator's hand, and ride again on the wings of time.

Im going to grab my Jager.
Thomas Keith
420. insectoid
Free @416: Well gee, if is going to gobble up all comments with YT links, whatever will Subwoofer and R.Fife (amongst others) do for a hobby? ;)

Jerry Bennett
421. Isvarden
srry had to do this

I got 420!!!!!!!!

well the choeden kal is gone now....... soo..... yeah.

edit: blast you insectoid, you foiled my plans.....
Barry T
422. blindillusion

Only a test.
Not much to see here.

edit: Ah. I passed. =)
Jerry Bennett
423. Isvarden
random, I was born on the 31st, what does that mean? Am I like Mat?

edit: if ur online right now look at the latest coments section. almost nothing but WOT open thread. Yeah we dominate!
424. FloydC
I'm a "Darkfriend" from the old Wheel of Time newsgroup, and have known Leigh Butler for a long time.

People have been into Graendal because she has been the smartest of the Forsaken (very good defenses), yet has been one of the most evil, keeping a collection of kings and other apparent good guys as slaves and servants.

Rand's tactical nuclear balefire was the only way that he could ensure that she would be eliminated. It would have been difficult to show her actual comeuppance because she gets her thread (and those of her unfortunate captives) burned back.
Jerry Bennett
425. Isvarden
I will remain sceptic until Brandon officially says something or the series is finished.
Thomas Keith
426. insectoid
Isvarden @421: Oops? :)

Blind @422: Hmm... very strange...

Janet Hopkins
427. JanDSedai
Isvarden, Rand is told by the 'Finn that "to live, you must die", and Min Forsees that Alivia, the Seachan damane, will help him die. Coupled with Egwene's dreams, that is a pretty sure thing that he will be at least clincally dead at some point.

It would be nice if the vast amounts of Saidar and Saidin that poeple will be throwing around in the Last Battle could be used for healing and not destruction.
Jerry Bennett
428. Isvarden
My rebuttle is this: Mat died.

HA!!!! ( sorry been wanting to say that for a while now )

In the end it doesn't matter, the Great Serpent will hold my confidence.
Jerry Bennett
430. Isvarden
apparently 9 posts have been deleted up until now.

edit: Night Y'all!!!!!
431. Freelancer

There is no "random black AS" hanging out with Graendal. She wouldn't risk it. She was nervous enough about letting other forsaken know exactly where her stronghold was, she wouldn't be hosting a party of darkfriends. As to Delana specifically, she is with Halima. Nobody gets near Graendal unless they are trusted or Compelled. There just isn't going to be another female channeler able to weave her heavy-duty Compulsion (or have a reason to) on Ramshalan.
Marcus W
432. toryx
Freelancer @ 413:

I don't think Graendal had to know anything specific at all. The only knowledge she needed was that Rand knew where she was and that he was nearby. Both pieces of information she could easily have gotten from Ramshalan.

Given her high degree of caution, intelligence, and determination to never face Rand one-on-one, my feelings are that the moment she knows that Rand is aware of her location, she'd get the hell out of dodge. Sending back someone who can be discerned to be Compelled is as obvious a ploy of distraction as Rand sending Ramshalan in.

Now I'm simply basing my assumptions on what we've seen of Graendal so far. It's altogether possible that you and the others who believe she'd fall for something so obvious as a decoy (which is the kind of thing a Forsaken would automatically think, since they tend to suspect everyone of being as tricksy as they) is correct; Sanderson well could have done that, in part to save time and tidy up a trailing plot thread.

But I don't think it's as true to the story given Graendal's intelligence and talents toward self-preservation. So I'm hoping that Graendal is still alive as much as believing it.

As for Rand's method of discerning that Graendal is dead? For all we know, she could have easily set some sort of clause for the Compulsion to unwind in the same sense (but far more subtly and skillfully woven) that Sammael set up his courier to die at Rand's response.

Edit to Add: By the way, I do acknowledge that RJ could well have planned for Graendal's ending to be just this simple and tidy. Sammael's ending was not much different and just as disappointing to me, personally. Heck that whole chapter in Shadar Logoth was a disappointment to me. I still have hope, however, of improvement.
433. J.Dauro
I can see Graendal being suspicious when Ramshalon appears. I can see her compelling him to try to attack Rand/get information. But I can't see her suspecting that Rand would balefire the entire castle. So I do not see any reason for her to have someone else do the compulsion, or for her to make the compulsion automatically undo. I could see her leaving as soon as she completes the compulsion. But then the compulsion would not have disappeared.
434. nor3
OK, fine, maybe Rand isn't a Hero of the Horn after all. It seemed kinda intuitive to me that he was, but apparantly conventional wisdom is against me. *sulk*
Jerry Bennett
435. Isvarden
Sorry nor.

Toryx is right, she could've easily put anouther inverted weave on Ramshalan that unknotted the Compulsion as soon as ANYONE channeled near by. And left even beore he did, after using Compulsion to learn everything from the idiot she could. Which would probably be nothing....... got to love the ones they keep in the dark, heh.
Jerry Bennett
436. Isvarden
Ok, I want to hear about Shara. I mean come on it's late eonugh in the series now and we've already learned a lot of little tidbits about it.

-Channelers' faces are tattooed the minuite they learn they can.
-There is never any fighting in Shara up until ( I can't remember which ) a certain book.

Then one of the Aeil, Rhaurc right?, who tells Rand one of the merchants to him there's fighting in Shara, and " there is NEVER any fighting in Shara." They also ask him when the Dragon will break the world again. Creepy huh? Well if they have prophecies too, then he should be thier chosen one too, why haven't we heard/seen any of that land? I mean come on, it's only across the Aeil Waste, Rand could order everyone in his dominion to march across the waste and see what's up, but there are no POV's and no more news from this supposedly myserious and mystical place.

I love that part when someone can't believe that silk comes from worms though, apparently it all comes from Shara via Seafolk or merchants.
Janet Hopkins
437. JanDSedai
The fighting in Sharra is because Graendal captured the King and Queen of of Sharra and Compulsed them. The power vacuum has no precedence, and the whole society is thrown into chaos.

But-- with all the plot threads the last two books have to tie up, we probably will not see Sharra except in glimpses. Although a Sharran army at the Blight at the Last Battle would be awesome!
Marcus W
438. toryx
Isvarden @ 436:

Years ago at a con I attended, someone asked RJ if we were going to get to see any of Shara and he said no. He said that other things were going on there, and elsewhere in the world, but the story he was telling is centered in "Randland" (not the name he used though) and only bits and pieces of what was happening elsewhere would ever be heard of by the main characters.

Which I think is pretty reasonable.

As I said, though, this was years ago, and he might have changed his mind. He's been known to do that. At the same Con, he also said he had no intentions of ever telling anymore stories set in the world after the final book (aside from the other two prequels), and he must have changed his mind about that by the time he started talking about the Mat and Tuon stories.
Jerry Bennett
439. Isvarden
That is reasonable, true. I would like to see Brandon Sanderson start a new series in Sharra that begins on the same day that WOT begins. You don't even know the series are going on at the same time until later on in the story, or at TG. That would be pretty awesome, and leaves him plenty of room to make new stuff up and keep to certain things, yet tell a completely new story. I would certainly love to read a spin off set in Sharra, maybe a trilogy.
That land is just so mysterious throughout the whole series, it would be nice to get to see a place we've only been hearing about this whole time.
Alice Arneson
440. Wetlandernw
Isvarden @439 - I doubt that wish will come true. Brandon has said that he has no intention of making a career out of WoT. He's thrilled to be finishing the series, and if Harriet asks him to do the prequels or outriggers he (probably) will, but neither Brandon nor Harriet have any intention of expanding beyond RJ's planned books. From what he's said, I tend to doubt we'll even see the prequels or outriggers; at best, I think, we're likely to get the basic info in the Encyclopedia when it's published.
Jerry Bennett
441. Isvarden
Maybe some time in the future someone will write in the same universe as Randland.......
Jerry Bennett
442. Isvarden
So.... on to the next subject!!!!

Step right up and spin the wheel!!! While I go catch up some more on the re-read by Leigh.....
Tricia Irish
445. Tektonica
I just tried to post a link to an article by Jason Henninger on this TOR site and it was flagged as spam. WTF???? Their own site!! Damn.

Anyway....there is a great article by Jason Henninger on the religions of Randland posted last November with wonderful insightful comments that I thought might be good fodder for discussion on this thread as well.

To find it, go to the right hand column on the main page, under the The World of Time Master Index.
Jerry Bennett
446. Isvarden
Yeah, the whole " there is no religion is Randland, everything just "is" ". No doubt as to whether there is a DO or not and all that.

I tell ya if people believed like that, we would've sold a lot more Outja boards in the 90's.

That's a "weegee" board......yeah, don't know why they spell it that way.....I had to go to the closet and get my old one out to check the spelling.
447. nor3
''So.... on to the next subject!!!! Step right up and spin the wheel!!! ''

Topic : The portrayal of gay characters in WoT.

Alice Arneson
448. Wetlandernw
nor3 - Not a chance. It's been beaten to death already. I, for one, WILL NOT GO THERE. Poor Bela.
Janet Hopkins
449. JanDSedai
re: ouija boards
oui means yes in French
ja means yes in German?
referring to the board's "ability" to answer yes/no questions

Yes, the "proofs of religion are self-evident all the time." I guess the same might be said of post- Millenial earth.
Barry T
450. blindillusion

Nor, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of this Thread dealt with The Topic.

There's my stance on Galina.
Jerry Bennett
451. Isvarden
Wow...... I guess that can be called a "bad spin".

So I will use my "second chance". Let's spin again!!!! *tick-a-da-tick-a-da-tick-a-da-clunk.........

Ok, re-roll then!!!!!!

Frankly I don't really have any topic ideas right now, as I'm just starting the 3rd book re-read right now. Hopefully I will be able to get the whole thing done today.
Bonnie Andrews
452. misfortuona
Okay Gurus perhaps this has already been done, and if so maybe one of you could point me in the right direction.
I seem to be finding a strong celtic presence among the people I'm meeting here. Has anyone ever done an ancestry survey? If not we should try one.

Janet Hopkins
453. JanDSedai
Okay, I have a thought. I have them regularly, once a day, even!

One of the Forsaken comments on the Warder Bond, and that it was not present in the Age of Legends. Every time he thinks of today's Aes Sedai as little more than untrained wilders, they do something surprising. So, what is special about the bond?

We now have female channelers bonding male channelers and vice versa. This is something very new. How is bonding different from linking? Could something be accomplished with bonding that could not be done with simple linking? Like sealing the Dark One's Prison?

Maybe this is the Big (currently) Unoticed Thing.
Alice Arneson
454. Wetlandernw
mis-curious @452 - No, we've never done an ancestry survey. Are you offering to collect the data? :)

JanDSedai @453 - Powerful lot of thinking, that. A dangerous pastime, they say...

About the bond... I have no idea. The basic bond itself is probably "new" in that it creates a link between a channeler and a non-channeler which provides a certain form of instant communication. Very limited, certainly, but there is a mental link of some sort. We haven't heard anyone say that the bond between channelers "feels" any different than the original version, but no one has said it's the same, either. IIRC, we did see the bonded pairs linking at the Cleansing; again, no one said one way or the other if there was a difference when you linked with your bonded Warder...

Bonding and Linking are very different things, I think; a link allows either person to handle all the flows (depending on how many people of each gender are in the link) where a bond doesn't give you access to one another's Power at all. Still, it's a curiosity: is there a difference when you are already bonded to the person you link with?

I'm pretty sure we don't have enough info to deduce anything about it yet, but as for the Big Clue...? I have no idea. Could be.
Janet Hopkins
455. JanDSedai
I expect the BcUT is something that there was no discussion about because it is something that can't be proved or disproved. I think everything has been noted at one time or another, but like you said, we don't have enough info to deduce anything. Plus, I'm not sure when this viewpoint occurred.
Jerry Bennett
456. Isvarden
It seems like a bond could, sort of, carry this subconscious feel of what they were supposed to do with that half of the source maybe.......

I know it's supposed to be twice the exctacy......
Maiane Bakroeva
457. Isilel
So, I have been neglecting this thread and now just have to weigh in with a couple of things, even thought the discussion seems to have moved on:

Wetlandernw @408:

IIRC, the Dragon is only spun out once in an Age, and not necessarily in every Age.

I am fairly sure that RJ said at some point that the soul that becomes the Dragon also has non-Dragon incarnations.
Also, that ta'veren and Heroes of the Horn can be on different sides, because sometimes that's what is required for balance.

Personally, I wonder if the Wheel didn't throw some folks against Hawkwing once he got corrupted by Ishy, for instance...

Freelancer @413:

the author would prepare such a brilliant scheme for Rand, with all the head-scratching over how to beat someone smarter than yourself, only to much later learn that you didn't.

But that's the crux of it. The scheme was anything but brilliant when looked at objectively. No evil-doer with two neurons to rub together should have fallen for it. IMHO, of course.

Now, forgive me if I am wrong, but it certainly seems to me that people who insist that Graendal should be dead, _like_ Dark Rand and _want_ him to be awesome, brilliant, etc.

So, what better way to stress that Dark Rand was going into the wrong direction, than to show that his methods and mode of thinking didn't work?


Nobody gets near Graendal unless they are trusted or Compelled. There just isn't going to be another female channeler able to weave her heavy-duty Compulsion (or have a reason to) on Ramshalan.

So? A Compelled channeler can still channel. Frankly, the rationalizations why the FS don't extensively use Third-age channelers always seemed absurd to me, because they _had_ to work with other channelers in AoL and must have had ways to keep them in line.

It is particularly blatant when we talk generals, since armies without channeling support are pretty much worthless, as has been demonstrated by the Trolloc attack on that mansion. But the other FS don't get a pass either.

Graendal recruited Sammael in AoL and now she is supposed to be terrified of a measly BA? Really? Particularly when folks like Moggy and B'elal weren't...
Jerry Bennett
458. Isvarden
The whole reason Grenny's possible demise is written this way is probably so that these discussion and this head scratching will continue, along with the debates. We just will not know at the very least until next book, simply because not enough information is given, as is a major part of the way RJ writes.

Brandon might be writing it now, but let's face it, he's even stated this, he is finishing another person's series. This means he is going off of Jordan's notes, so if Jordan wanted the supposed downfall of Grenny to be a headscratcher, all Brandon is doing is covering it in his own writing style.

So yeah, the answer is inconclusive, not enough info either way. Jordan did this on purpose.

Barry T
459. blindillusion
You seem to be looking at this situation from the stance that there should have been a personal confrontation between Rand and Graendal. Why? Rand looked at the situation in the way a Solider, namely a General, would look at the problem. He recognized that Graendal was more intelligent than him and knew he had to devise a way to eliminate her...not confront her.

I mean, Rand's “Punch her in the face” analogy aside, he also seemed to realize this concept:
Attack on ground where your enemy believes you will not, from an unexpected direction at an unexpected time. Defend where your enemy believes you are not, and when he believes you will run. Surprise is the key to victory, and speed is the key to surprise. For the soldier, speed is life.
And sure, this quote comes from Mat's memories of a General Comadrin, a man dead for quite some time, but that doesn't mean it's an original concept, or that Rand couldn't think of it himself.

I'd postulate that Graendal was not expecting such a nuclear scale attack. Rand had yet to use the Choedan Kal against the other why would he use it against her? She also thought she was dealing with a man who had serious issues about direct fights with women. She thought she was safe in obscurity. And she underestimated the level to which the Rand would sink to eliminate an enemy from land he claimed as his own.

Of course, it is fairly amusing that, yes, you're absolutely correct: It wasn't Rand that sank to that level, or even the Dragon was “Dark” Rand. But, that is yet another thing Graendal had no knowledge of, IIRC. She didn't know Rand had channeled the True Power. And perhaps more importantly...she didn't know Moridin had given Rand the key to clearing the field, i.e. balefire.

So, sure...we're told throughout that Graendal is very intelligent (which I still don't really see), but she fell as a result of lack of knowledge/Military Intelligence...and that it was knowledge she had no way of acquiring really doesn't change much. She was expecting the Rand she thought she knew enough about to eventually knock on her door. He didn't. He flanked her.
Tricia Irish
460. Tektonica
Bravo Blind@459:

She was expecting the Rand she thought she knew enough about to eventually knock on her door. He didn't. He flanked her.

Well put. I really thought it was one of Rand's smarter moves. For certain it was done by "Dark Rand", and it was something I never thought he would do....offing all those damaged, compelled people, and women! Very cold and calculating of him and not his usual Rand character. The True Power definitely had him in it's clutches, but it was effective. (I hope....and believe it was.) One could argue it was his lowest moment. (I don't think the moment when he offed Semi compares.....that was personal....he was fighting for Min's life.)

I also hope we see more "Old Good Guy Rand" in ToM, after his revelation on Dragonmont. And I hope he doesn't get all emo about some of his past actions either. We don't have time for that!
Debbie Solomon
461. dsolo
Haven't been on this post in awhile, so this is an old topic. re: turn of the century life expectancy of 43 - the reason for that was "Modern Medicine". Medical schools began proliferating in the 19th century, where medical students learned all about the benefits of bloodletting and went from autopsy to childbirth, without washing their hands. Women who delivered in the most "modern" way, in a hospital with a doctor, instead of the oldfashioned way, at home with a midwife, died in droves.

In fact, a few years before Dr. Semmelweiss was ridiculed for suggesting that doctors clean their hands between patients, and before germ theory, our own Dr. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr (father of the jurist) wrote a pamphlet about puerperal fever (childbed fever) suggested that doctors were the ones transmitting it between patients and advocating not only handwashing, but burning contaminated clothing. He was also ridiculed (he didn't believe in bloodletting either), but eventually his views prevailed. The human body has an amazing ability to fight off infections and heal itself, but the healthier you are and the cleaner your surroundings the better.

When herbal medicines are discussed, I think people are thinking about New Age wild claims and not in terms of pharmacopiea. Substitute pharmacist for herbal healer and you have a different take on it.

That's my last word on the subject (sorry, I'm a healer...err...I mean, nurse, so it's an interesting topic for me).
Maiane Bakroeva
462. Isilel
Blindillusion @459:

You seem to be looking at this situation from the stance that there should have been a personal confrontation between Rand and Graendal.

On the contrary. My stance is that:

1) Major villains should live up to their billing at least some of the time.
If somebody is supposed to be intelligent - show me their intelligence in action, instead of having them clumsily fall for a very obvious ploy.

Because that's what Rand's plan was - not brilliant or a stroke of genius. And he blabbed about his intentions where unfriendly ears could have heard for a few hours before he set out too and marked the lair's position on a map (sic!) as well.

2) "Rand kills a Forsaken" has been done to death and has grown very boring.
There are more than enough people to take care of the Forsaken besides Rand and ideally a couple or 2 of them would survive the new Sealing anyway.

3) Dark Rand was on a completely wrong path. Why should he have been successful in anything? Him having destabilized the Pattern and killed all those poor schmucks for nothing would really drive it home, that yes, that was absolutely not the way.

Rand had yet to use the Choedan Kal against the other why would he use it against her?

Callandor would have done it too and it has been used to kill a Forsaken or 2 ;).
Moreover, did Graendal actually know that Rand didn't personally kill Lanfear?
And even if she did - and wasn't competent enough to place agents in Rand's entourage who could have alerted her to Semi's demise and Rand's vocally stated intentions, surely she should have realized that Rand's channeling followers could do for her too. She was at the Cleansing, after all.

Seriously, if Graendal had been truly intelligent, she should have:

moved everything she treasured somewhere else the moment Rand came to Arad Doman.

used something completely uncharacteristic as her base as long as Rand was in the same country

Surrounded the base with wards alerting her about any strange channelers, particularly male ones, in range.

either not touched Ramshalan with Compulsion at all, or used all the subtlety that she is/was capable off according to Sammael in ACOS... and hightailed it the second he was shown the door.

That's what an intelligent villain with stated intention not to get into fights personally would have done.

Now, of course, she may be truly dead, but IMHO then her death was as lame, implausible and disappointing as Sammael's.
Tricia Irish
463. Tektonica

Seems to me that your own argument makes the case for Graendal NOT being all that intelligent after all. Smoke and mirrors. We are told she's smart, but she never acted it IMHO.
464. avox
I think the main reason people want Graendal to live is that we haven't seen a POV from her where she admits killing Asmodean :-)

There's no way Graendal could have guessed why Rand sent Ramshalan to her. First of all she would not expect being balefired together with the whole Barrow:
- She thinks Rand still doesnt kill women. And a lot of her pets are women.
- Sending an envoy would be interpreted as trying to play tricks with her. As long as there is talking there is no fighting.
- Even if she was afraid of Rand balefiring the whole Barrow, she would not have anticipated Rand's need for a proof of her death. She doesnt even know that he has means to detect compulsion. The most likely assumption on her part would have been that he wanted to make sure it's indeed Graendal in the Barrow. So either she would have fled right away or she would have tried to use compulsion to conceal her presence - which she did/tried.
Jay Dauro
465. J.Dauro
OK, it's too quiet. How about some controversy?

1) With Siuan and Leane we see that stilling removes the Oaths. So what if we were to stll one of the Black Ajah? Would that remove the Oathes to the Dark Lord? Look at Amico Nagoyin in TSR. We see that she was telling the truth when she said that the BA was going to Tanchico. So, should Egwene institute a questioning of the BA after they are stilled? If they are truthful and helpful, should the death sentence be lifted?

2) At the end of TGS, does Min know that Rand is laughing? We have seen she can feel him hardening, so shouldn't she feel his "softening"? If so, should she tell Cadsuane and the others? What about Elayne and Aviendha? Do they also feel it? Elayne is not much farther away, and I don't think Aviendha is either. So will they feel it?

3) People talk of "healing the world" But since the Dragon and the world are as one
There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land.
shouldn't it start to improve without any other help now? Granted, the world will need more to get back to full health, but will the food spoilage slow or stop? This is equivalent to asking was the spoilage caused by the DO, or by Rand's changes? If it does inmprove, will the SG and Cadsuane link this to Rand's change?

4) And now, for the really bad one. Don't Cadsuane and the Wise Ones deserve some credit for Rand's Moment of Self-realization? It does start with Rand's exposure to Tam. That did not go as they planned, but it was Rand's trying to kill Tam that led to his final realization on Dragonmount that the world did not have to be destroyed, and to his laughter.
Tasneem Gould
466. Latecomer
OK - I'll bite.

1. Stilling the BA - yep, this is a great idea. Stilling removes the oaths, and of course the chaneller would be so terrified and upset about losing the ability that they would probably do whatever was asked in order to be healed again. However - why should they be 'fogriven'? The punishment should be commeasurate with the crime i.e. any BA who have been committing foul deeds should be severly punished, and other who have NOT may have lighter punishments.
Actually I don;t know if Egwene would agree to this - she executed ALL known BA regardless of their good/ evil deeds.

2. Yes, it would be interested to know what the bond-holders are feeling we. Rand's various moods and changes.

3. Yep - totally expect that the land will now grow healthier (as long as the TP doesa not prove too addictive)

4. Credit - yes, I guess so, and this is probably Min's viewing coming partially true. But it's like Moggy 'acidentally' doing good; sure the DO lets her live, but in severly restricted conditions. I wouldn't be too sad if that happened to Cads.
Barry T
467. blindillusion
Seems to me that your own argument makes the case for Graendal NOT being all that intelligent after all. Smoke and mirrors. We are told she's smart, but she never acted it IMHO.
Thanks Tek. My sentiments exactly.

On the contrary. My stance is that:

1) Major villains should live up to their billing at least some of the time.
If somebody is supposed to be intelligent - show me their intelligence in action, instead of having them clumsily fall for a very obvious ploy.

At what point did Graendal become one of the major villains? She is just one of the 13 Chosen who was at a meeting with the Dark One. That she's one of DO's favorites really doesn't impress me. None of the Forsaken have really done much...with the exception of Moridin.

Isn't that one of the messages Mr Jordan expressed from the beginning: Legend doesn't always live up to the hype?

As for Graendal's supposed's not like she was well hidden. She remained on the defense throughout...and contrary to popular belief...a good defense is not always the best offense. I'd have to I've said from the beginning...the Forsaken are not the all powerful beings Legend says they are.

I still fail to see what was obvious about Rand's plan.... And along those lines, I didn't say it was a stroke of genius or brilliant. I said it would have been unexpected.

Eh. Never mind. Patterns within Patterns and all that. I believe I just leave this one alone. From here on out. Sometimes...there is an ending. =)
Alice Arneson
468. Wetlandernw
Isilel @457 Now, forgive me if I am wrong, but it certainly seems to me that people who insist that Graendal should be dead, _like_ Dark Rand and _want_ him to be awesome, brilliant, etc.

Not so much. I can't speak for all of fandom, but while I do hope that Graendal is dead, I don't like Rand "going Dark." I don't like him "getting over his thing about not killing women." I don't like him deciding that it's okay to balefire a palace full of people. I don't want "Dark Rand" to be better and stronger than "Light Rand." I just hope that Graendal is dead.

FWIW, I think it was a fairly intelligent plan, all in all, and while Graendal may or may not be intelligent, everyone has blind spots. As blindillusion said, there's a good chance she didn't know about Rand using the True Power, having the balefire secret, and losing his "never kill a woman" hold. Combine a blind spot regarding her secure hiding place with any or all of those three, and even a smart person could be.... well, blindsided.

Actually, I personally disagree with the whole concept of "Dark Rand" vs. "Light Rand" (or "real Rand" or whatever you want to say). I don't buy the idea that use of the True Power somehow makes him a different person, and that Rand himself is not responsible for the decisions he makes thereafter. But... that's a wall of text for another time.
Tricia Irish
469. Tektonica

I don't mean to indicate that I condone "Dark Rand's" actions. I think he is responsible for his actions, and will also probably be devastated when he realizes the full scope of what he did in his 'darkened' mood. I think he will regret quite a bit, actually. (I am using "Dark Rand" here to indicate his edgy mood under the TP influence.)

I do think using the TP, exaggerated his cockamamie ideas about "being hard and impervious" and spurred him to some reckless measures.

I also think the way he tricked Graendal was smart. And I do hope she's gone for good. (We only have two more books, after all!)

Question: Now that Rand has had his "Revelation" on Dragonmont, what will it take to get out from under the influence of that TP taste? Can he break the connection to Moridan? Can he use the connection? Can he influence Moridan's actions?
Janet Hopkins
470. JanDSedai
But Dark Rand has more flavor that Rand Lite!
Alice Arneson
471. Wetlandernw
Tektonica - I'm guessing that's the main story of A Memory of Light, right there... And I'm betting we'll only get glimpses of the answers in TofM.

Truth be told, I haven't read anyone's comments that made me think they thought the darkening was a good thing, except to the extent that some are glad Rand "got over" his refusal to kill women. I really do want to write a nice long wall-o-text on the effect the TP had on him. Just can't quite muster the brain-power tonight. But I totally agree that Rand will be having some major regrets next time we see him.

JanDSedai... Oh, help! LOL. I can't stand "lite" beer. Eurgh.
Jay Dauro
472. J.Dauro

Egwene did execute the BA in the Salidar camp.
Fifty women were far too many to shield and guard, and now that they knew stilling could be Healed, that wasn't an option.
The law was known, the Hall had made its judgment, and it had not been done in secret.

The second part seems to say that she intends to execute all, because it is the law, and the first because it is safer. But, before they held a Forsaken because they needed the knowledge. They are going to have to face worse in the days to come, and there will be more knowledge needed. So should the AS try to do more in interrogation, now that they have the Tower back together?
Jerry Bennett
473. Isvarden
I'm just glad the whole "fishing the BA out of the Tower is finally done with". That took way too long, how many books?
Bonnie Andrews
474. misfortuona
Sure I'll do the collecting if anyone wants to play.
So the survey is what ethnic background do you claim.

Mis: German and English

Janet Hopkins
475. JanDSedai
Pennsyvania Dutch, some Irish & Scotts about 5 or 6 generations back, and 1/32 Cherokee Indian
Alice Arneson
476. Wetlandernw
mis-statistician - mostly German/Pennsylvania Dutch, with a bit of English and French Huguenot in there somewhere.
Thomas Keith
477. insectoid
Mis @474: For the record (I already mentioned on gabbly): Irish, Scottish, German, and possibly other WE influences (though you'd have to go back several generations to find them).

Hmm... didn't quite make 500 in the first two weeks of the thread. Oh well ;)

Rob Munnelly
479. RobMRobM
Mostly (about 80%) Irish (yeah, I finally met the hypothesis that at the core of the thread) with some English and Scottish. R
Rob Munnelly
480. RobMRobM
Re Graendel - she's toast. She had no reason to believe Rand pierced through her defenses to find her location. She had to have in mind that Rand's messenger was doing what he said he was - trying to enlist help of all AD houses in a particular endeavor. She absolutely knew, through compulsion, that the particular messenger chosen had no idea that she wasn't who she claimed to be.

Even if she believed Rand sent an unknowing messenger as part of a scheme to capture or kill her, she'd have no reason to believe that the thermonuclear destruction would be the plan rather than some other type of approach that would allow her to respond successfully (and increase her chances to be positioned for Nae'blis), defend herself or flee. She wouldn't want to abandon her pretties without better cause than this. The chain of suppositions to get her out of this mess is too long and unlikely for me to believe it could work.

Tina A
481. Tinaa
Mis@the survey - I'm 5th generation Kiwi, but have spent the last 10 years living in Scotland. If I go back far enough, you'll find Scottish and English.
Tricia Irish
488. Tektonica
Mis@ Survey:

Mostly English, German, French, with some Penn Dutch, Irish, Scottish...your basic northern European Mutt. Everyone's been here so long though, it just feels like a story. An American story.
Barry T
489. blindillusion
Mis - collecting
Oh, I'm a dab of Irish, with a bit of German, plus a touch of Welsh...and according to Mom, .0009 Cherokee.
Marcus W
490. toryx
Lots of good discussion here over the weekend.

Graendal: Wow, it seems like Isilel and I actually agree. That doesn't happen very often.

I've already expressed my opinion substantially enough on this issue. I'm either right or wrong as to what actually happened, but my preference (that Graendal was not killed so easily) isn't going to change.

Rand: "The Dragon and the World are one" is not something that I happen to take that literally. I don't think the land is going to be healed because Rand might have regained his sanity. The land is being influenced by the Dark One's touch on the world. By virtue of channelling the True Power, Rand has been deeply influenced by that touch as well, which is why things are worse when he's around.

So far, we have far too little to suggest that this touch on Rand has been removed, solely because he appears to have reintegrated. In fact, the issue with the LTT personality has absolutely nothing to do with the effects of the True Power on him so resolving one should have no effect at all on the other.

I'm also not convinced that his laughter was as healing as everyone likes to believe. It probably will be, solely because we're running out of time (two books and all) but it just seemed too neatly tied up. With a bow.

Even if he is back to full sanity though, I think the hardest part for him is just begun.

The Bond: I think that the disadvantages to the Bond are great enough that even if the Age of Legenders had thought of it, they wouldn't have wanted to actually use it. It definitely has such a negative effect on the non-channeling Male side that I could see it even being considered immoral before the War started.

Misfortuona's Poll: I'm a heavily mixed breed. Slovak, Polish, German and Irish. I've got a strong feeling that I've got some Scottish blood from the Irish ancestors as well, but no hard evidence to say one way or another.
Matthew Smith
491. blocksmith
Toryx@432 and Isilel@457/462

I am agreeing with Tek and Blind on this...Rand's strategy was brilliant because it was so out of character. It was well known by all the FS that Rand protected women and could not kill a woman even for betraying him (see Colavere). I am willing to bet that DF spies provided some information to the FS on what happened at the docks in Cairhein regarding Lanfear.

Yes, he has taken out male FS, but also his style is pretty much a head on confrontation. For him to a) wipe out herself and other "innocents" and b) do it from a distance is completely different from his pattern of behavior...doesn't matter if it's "good" or "bad" Rand influencing this behavior.

I will agree though, that Graendal has been played up as one of the smarter/more observant FS...only Sammael has really been shown to have duped her on-screen. However, IMHO, as soon as the messenger showed up and was dealt with, I would have expected her to start uprooting herself and moving to a back-up base of operations. That said, my guess is she was likely trying to decide which of her pretties would accompany her when the maelstrom of balefire obliterated her into last week (literally).


Irish, German, French, and a touch of American Indian (a greatx6 grandfather serving in the colony (pre-revolutionary war) version of the English army had an Indian wife in the mid-1700s in western NY.
Michael Maxwell
493. pike747
@95. NerveAgent
I must say that there is nothing I hate about your idea. I believe that Lan’s bond has already been passed but if Moiraine were to reenter Randland at near Lanfear’s power and ability she would be able to help in some manner in the scenario you describe. I also think it would be a MoA, both her having enhanced abilities and Nynaeve having to accept that she is awesome. I always found Nynaeve’s hatred of Moiraine irrational. Nynaeve is still one of my favorite characters in all of literature and it would only make her more awesome if she let go of that.

@127. subwoofer
The Tower is smooth. Can't be entered from this world, I think. There should be another way in. Other than showing up at the door in cat suits.
Just jumped from reading TSR to KoD,
In the chapter “A Village In Shiota” Olver tells Mat and Thom the name of the Tower and how to enter. He learned this from Birgitte, who may have already forgotten this tidbit. “Birgitte says you make the sign on the side of it anywhere with a bronze knife.” He made the sign that started the game. “She says it has to be a bronze knife. Make the sign and a door opens.”

@170. misfortuona
All of them have been discussed? Well thats sort of a let down. You know I'm begining to wonder if this BUT actually exists or if it was a prank by RJ, and now Brandon and Co, to keep us talking.
Wow what a cololsal waste of effort, considering what it would take to make us stop.

Truer words were never spoken. I believe we could type for quite a long time on this subject. Some of that is the compelling nature of the story and much of it is the friendships many of you have formed here. It is great to see the affection that you veterans hold each other in and how you miss each other when you’re gone.

@173. RobMRobM
[i][u]Tam saving her by flashing blademaster skills on camera[u] - one of the things we've been waiting for all series, by the way - and voila.
Hadn’t thought of that but now that you mention it, yeah!

@174. subwoofer
All of your points (As well as many of the other’s points) about health, medicine and longevity are well made. Another interesting side point to that is average height. I am not speaking of the way that the characters appear on the covers. Those even manage to make Loial appear to be short let alone Mat, Perrin and Rand. I have heard that in RL the average height has increased as dramatically as the average life expectancy. That we are in general a lot taller than we used to be due to better nutrition or a higher protein diet. There are still genetic exceptions. I am 6’2” while most of my wife’s family stand around 5’. The Aiel and Rand are considered very tall and most Carhienien relatively short. I suppose the Aiel raise cattle, sheep and goats so they would have relatively high protein diets as well as genetic predisposition to being taller. Thought I would add this as height is often mentioned in these stories.

@ 211. misfortuona
Where exactly can we get one of those things?
In something like the opposite of alcohol perhaps. I don’t have much of one either.

@310. Gentleman Farmer
3. As she spends more time with Halima, she makes more and more comments about Rand "running around loose", and needing to be guided. Notwithstanding her comment/challenge to Elaida about how she would have handled Rand, her thoughts throughout the later books all deal with controlling Rand. I wondered if perhaps this was part of Halima's influence, perhaps in conjunction with getting a binder (of the type Sammael thought he could get) into Egwene's hands for the Tower to control Rand.
I was really beginning to dislike Egwene for these reasons, until TGS where she won me over with her MoA

@330. ShaggyBella
Semirhage was the FS that killed the whole Seanchan royal family & half the court. She visited Suroth to tell her she can now claim the title of Empress, after she kills Tuon, in POD.
KOD, sorry but I just read this and it is only one letter off but three novels ?

@389. JanDSedai
An excellent point. I did notice a difference in styles but would have been unable to describe the difference as well as you have. IMO in the original books when there would be a battle between Rand and one of the Powerful Forsaken, it would become a little more difficult to see what was going on. The difference in Brandon’s style may work very well for these “battles in the sky”.

@452. misfortuona
Say Gurus perhaps this has already been done, and if so maybe one of you could point me in the right direction.
I seem to be finding a strong celtic presence among the people I'm meeting here. Has anyone ever done an ancestry survey? If not we should try one.

My name is Scottish but I am adopted. I do feel as though I am Celtic

My own points:

What about new forsaken/chosen? I know there is little room for that in these final novels but why would none of the current crop of team darkness be elevated, as they were no doubt promised, to a higher rank?

I think Brandon deserves to have his own books that are no more influenced by WOT than he already is. He is working so hard on this and trying to keep us all happy. When it is finally done it should be done. Let our vivid imaginations fill in all of these potential worlds for ourselves.
Bill Reamy
494. BillinHI
Survey: Mostly French Huguenot on my father's side (although my paternal grandmother was second-generation Irish) and mostly English and a few Scots on my mother's side. Both sides have been in North America since the early 1600's, so there are undoubtedly many other European bits in there as well.

Toryx @490: While I agree that the DO is definitely touching the world and causing many (if not all) of the problems, I also think that Rand has exaggerated that touch at times. See especially Ebou Dar and the instantaneous food spoilage. While I think there will be some improvement now after Rand's epiphany, the DO must be defeated for the world to truly recover. And that will (hopefully) involve the Tuathaan, Ogier and maybe even the Aiel.
Sandy Brewer
495. ShaggyBella
@497 pike747 Thanks, I edited my post@330
I tried before, but was not able..there was only preview, not a post button??

Anyhow, I'm another Northern European mixture...Norwegian, Scottish, English & German.

Karen Jacobs
496. KJacobs
Mis @ The Survey :)

Irish, French & Portugese
Sandy Brewer
497. ShaggyBella
Tossing out a new subject...
After reading all the politics getting Elayne Caemlyn's throne, I started thinking about everyones sigils. Every Noble, House and Country has one. Winged Hammers, Flying Cranes, Golden Bees, Red Bulls, Lions pulling Chariots. Even the Trolloc bands had them, mostly with skulls. I love this part of the books, (also the horses)

So...What would be your personal or House sigil? Computer mouse? Motorcycle? Frying pan? Ale mug? Dancing Bear? Peace sign???
For me, maybe a Book with Wings...Dragon Wings. My House would probably be a microscope with wrench or muscle car. (Lab Tech married to Car Guy)
I wish I was more of an artist.

498. Gentleman Farmer
Re Dark Rand

I like Dark Rand quite a bit... not for his actions, or even for getting over the killing women thing (I kind of liked that as a weakness and a reason for him to collaborate with women) but thematically, that's what sort of got me into the series.

When I started TEotW the first time, not much really captured me in it. The Dark Rider thing reminded me of the Belgariad, and it didn't seem especially original. Moiraine's speech on Aemon's Field was enough to keep me going for a while, but I think I was really hooked when they got to the story of Aridhol.

I really liked the concept that a nation that professed "The Victory of the Light is All" and became dark enough that even in the depths of the trolloc wars other nations wouldn't send to them for help. I like how the darkness of Aridhol as distinct from the DO has continued to be used throughout the series, up to the cleansing of saidin, but I've thought how interesting it would be if there were people who became... Aridhol friends? People so focussed on destroying the DO that they become as bad or worse. Ingtar might have fit that category, so would a number of the AS. I thought Taim would have fit that bill very nicely.

I liked Asmodean's comment, in response to the siswai'aman (People Owned by the Dragon) that perhaps now Rand isn't that much different in his goals and desires than the Forsaken.

So seeing Rand becoming more obsessed about just making it to the Last Battle at all costs, without seeing what it was doing to him struck me as a really neat thing to explore. If the darkness of Aridhol was enough to remove the taint from Saidin, could someone like the Dragon using the CK supplant the Creator/Dark One as suggested by Lanfear... but in so doing, be another or different Dark One?

I think Rand probably has had his revelation, and moved back from a Victory of the Light is all approach, his time as a one armed beggar perhaps did that for him... but I kind of hope there continues to be interaction with some of the win at all cost element to show the fallacy of that single minded approach. I'm not sure there is any good character to fill that role right now. Egwene maybe? Perrin?
Tina Pierce
499. scissorrunner
100% German
parents grew up there, but I don't speak a word...

J.Dauro @ 465
1. Question the BA after stilling? absolutely
Lift the death sentence? No way. They “made
their own beds”…
2. Do Rand’s 3 feel his laughter? I sure hope so.
they stuck with him through all the bad stuff,
they deserve to feel the good.
3. Will the world heal with Rand? Probably, but
he’ll not be credited for it
4. Cads & WO get the credit for Rand’s “learning
to laugh”? as much as I wish not(ANY
manipulation isn’t good, and that was really
low), they probably will.

Personal sigil? a pair of scissors of course
House sigil? an overflowing table. (when we get together food is a MAJOR part)
Marcus W
500. toryx
BillinHI @494:

I do agree that Rand was having an effect on his environment and making the situation worse, but I think that's a direct result of his having channelled the True Power. The dark aura that's freaking everyone out only appeared after that, and since the True Power seems to be the essence of the Dark One, it makes sense that the Dark's One touch would now be heavy on Rand as a result of his touching it.

But if that's the case, Rand's epiphany will have no impact whatsoever on his effect on the world around him. He's going to have to instead find a way to cleanse himself, just as he cleansed Saidin. How that can be accomplished without outright killing him, I don't know.

What I'm really curious about (and haven't seen mentioned anywhere) is what the nature of his wounds are now that his entire being has been marked by the True Power. Did that shift the balance of the two wounds? Did it have any effect at all?

ShaggyBella @ 497:

If I were to have a house sigil or banner, I'd have a wolf on a green field with the sun half-set on one side and the moon half-risen on the other.

Personal sigil would be said wolf with a ken (irish rune) hanging on its breast.
Janet Hopkins
501. JanDSedai
re: Gentleman Farmer @ 498-
I think you have some very good points (you usually do!). We have often considered Elaida's contact with the Aridhol dagger, but I never thought to think about Rand's contact with Mat on the journey to Camelyn. He spent much longer with the dagger (albeit at one remove) than any other character.

We've gone on and on about Rand's pschycological problems (sublimated "voices" presenting as multiple personalities), but I never considered the dagger as contributing to his problems.

SO glad that RJ didn't do "what has gone before" recaps to sum up previous books. Or else we would be hit over the head with "clues", instead of finding them for ourselves.

And scissorrunner-- I have always considered my compulsion to cook food part of my Penn. Dutch heritage. Why use a centerpiece on the table when you can take it off and have room for pickalilly and three relishes?!
502. avox
@ 473. Isvarden:

about 70 years ;-)
Debbie Solomon
503. dsolo
avox @ 502 - LOL. At last, vindication for my 70 year theory!

I'm in the camp that believes Graendal was in the house. Rand's actions were totally out of character from what people expected (and yes, I do believe the TP is the cause of the Darkening of Rand - feel free to use that phrase BS). Perhaps BS will have a flashback from Graendel's POV as she tries to figure out what Rand has planned, right before her exit). It does seem that Semi and Graendel were dealt with a bit abruptly, but we're in the home stretch here. We have to get the other FS out of the way before the big confrontation with Moridin, Demandred (sp?), Taim, the Borderlanders, the Seanchan, etc.

I'm still trying to figure out what got the Borderlanders on the move. It has to be our hidden FS, but who is he pretending to be to have that much effect on 4 rulers? Personally, I think Tenobia is going to be toast. If she hadn't already been onscreen, I could speculate that Dem is impersonating her (loony theory alert). Maybe the reason Bashere is avoiding going home is because he figured out something was wrong with her, and he's throwing his lot in with Rand, hoping that the DR will fix it in the end.
Sandy Brewer
504. ShaggyBella
@500 Toryx (congrats on the 500!)

But if that's the case, Rand's epiphany will have no impact whatsoever on his effect on the world around him.

Didn't the sun break through the clouds around Dragonmount, after weeks of gloom? I was hoping for the land to recover somewhat, with his mood.
Tasneem Gould
505. Latecomer
My Votes:

1. Graendal - is toast. Completely out of the blue strategy by Rand - don't think she could have anticipated it. I also don't think there was any point writing in Ramashalam's (sp?) compulsion etc (a very clever idea) if it was all for nought in the end. I believe it is the author's way of a defintive death without there being a body.

2. Rand - the Dragon is one with the land. If he is healing and feeling better, then so will the land heal. I just hope he can hold off drawing the True Power - but it was not just this making him / the land sick. This process was going on for a while and hopefully he has now turned the corner on this.

I think so many commentators are so doubtful is because we have been so conditioned by RJ to expect another twist - something else to prolong the story. You think they are dead - but they have been brought back. You think it is fixed - but you have overlooked something.

However, I don't think we will see much of this in the last 3 books because:

1. We are now working towards a resolution - not a continuation of the story meandering towards a resolution (i hope you know what I mean).

2. Brandon is a 'doer' - the Michael Bay of fantasy. He's action man. I don't mean he ignores sotry/ plot etc - but things HAPPEN in his books. LOTS of things. And lets face it, with all those threads that need to be tied up, things do need to happen. I mean, we haven't even SEEN Demandred yet. We don't know what Cyndane and Moggy are up to. What is Halima doing? Lets face it, just cos Graendael is gone does not mean we don't have villans - we've got heaps waiting for their turn in the sun. So she's dead. Meh. Bring out Halima.
Bonnie Andrews
506. misfortuona
Funny enough as I read your list I came accross what would have to be out house sigal. My husband writes songs, and for two years my children have been awakened by his own creation. A song about a Dancing Bear!
Otherwise, the thing would have to be huge to cover everything we are.

Mis-two cents
Tina Pierce
507. scissorrunner
JanDSedai @ 501
whats a "centerpiece"?????
Barry T
508. blindillusion
I suppose you could say I already have both.

Personal - A red crescent moon (opening to the right) with one red star on the “closed” side and a grouping of three red stars on the open side placed on a black background. Think stylized 13.

Family - I’m in the process of having this drawn up. It’s actually going to be a family crest: A red standing lion with the front paws reaching towards my personal crest…on a black background, of course. Family motto – All Knowledge is Worth Having.

edit: Added a picture of my personal "sigil" to my pictures here on Tor.
Karen Jacobs
509. KJacobs
Blind@508: Very cool sigil! You'll have to post the crest when it is complete.
Marcus W
510. toryx
dsolo @ 503:

I think it'd be awesome if Demandred had somehow replaced Tenobia. I doubt it's happened, but I'd be SO impressed. I definitely think he's likely to be with the Borderlanders at any rate, and source of what's driving them into their little windmill jousting quest.

shaggybella @ 504: Wow, I didn't even notice that I was 500th. I guess I better stop posting so much!

I think the break in the clouds has more to do with the fact that Rand almost channelled himself (and possibly the world) into oblivion than his breakthrough. Other than that, it's just a poetic display of the writer's craft with no value other than symbolism. :)

Latecomer @ 505: That quote comes from a prophecy that is made up of so much symbolism that it rarely means what it seems to says it means. (How very appropos of Aes Sedai) I just don't buy that it's so simple that the land is going to get better solely because he's in a better frame of mind.

Now if whatever he does to cleanse himself from the Dark One's touch is also sufficient to clean the that I can buy. Because it's going to take a herculean effort, dude.

blindillusion @ 508:

Ooh, family motto!

Mine would have to be either, "Think Before You Speak" or "To Write is Human, But to Edit is Divine."

If only because I don't practice either one of them nearly as often as I should.
511. nor3
Survey : Irish through and through. Sure does seem to be a lot of Irish ancestors, and I hate to ruffle all your feathers, BUT a common occurance for Irish people abroad (particularly in the US) is to tell someone you're Irish and get a response along the lines of ''I'm Irish too! My great-great-great-great-grandfather's neighbour's cousin was from Cavan!'' Seems that people are keen to remember their Irish links, often letting other links fade out of memory, even though most Irish people would consider them pretty tenuous. Don't mean to undermine anyone's ancestry, but it does seem to be true, based on anecdotal envidence at the very least.

Re : the Black Ajah : I think the points about getting info from the BA is are kinda null and void - any info they are likely to have concerns their own activities, (why would a forsaken, for example, let a lowly BA in on their schemes? Any info about the forsaken would be hazy and largely based on supposition, gleaned from their personal orders, not on the actual overall plan) and their own activities are now effectively over. They MIGHT have info about those BA agents out and about in the world, but this info would largely be exclusive to members of the same hearts (most BA members havn't been ferreting out names and missions for 70 years), so to gather all the relevant info you would have to question every member, and Eg notes that ''there were too many to hold.'' Only a few could have been interrogated without straining resources and risking a mass breakout, and the info gathered from just a few hearts would be next to useless. The logical course of action would be to deal with them right away.

As for the issue of how to deal with them, the arguement that ''they made their own beds'' (made by someone above, somewhere) isn't really valid, since many of them DIDNT make their own beds. Many were blackmailed (and, I presume, 13x13'd) into becoming BA. Prehaps a more just solution would be to have them reswear the Three Oaths, then ask if they willingly went to the Dark Side or if they still have any intention of working to help the Dark One, etc., and then merely excute only those who can't answer the right way. Any negative publicity from having former BA members can be contained - only the sisters have to know, and they all understand that the oaths proove the former BA's to be truely reformed and/or innocent in the first place. Plus, any former BA's will probably work doubly hard against the DO to make up for the shame of it all.
Thomas Keith
512. insectoid
ShaggyBella @497: ::points at avatar:: ;) Dunno about a House sigil though.

Blind @508: Oh... so that's what that was! Interesting.

EDIT: Hex 2 hunny! ::foolish grin::

Tasneem Gould
513. Latecomer
Toryx - I LOVE your Mottos :) Probably apply to me as well.

Nor3 - all very well to try & re-use 13 x 13ed BA - but I recall RJ saying that the process twists their personality to such an extent that they will contiue to be evil. They would just end up being double agents and help the Shadow in that case.
514. nor3
Latecomer-I did say '' have them reswear the Three Oaths, then ask if ... they still have any intention of working to help the Dark One''. Anyone who's personality has been corrupted to serve the DO wouldn't be able to truthfully say they had no intention of serving him in future. Hence, they get the chop. Pity they can't be re-used, but at least they can't be double agents.
515. Doorman
Survey: Irish prot. Welch,Cornish, and English.

Ref; the BA; Off with their heads.

As for Lite Rand vs Dark Rand: I hope its both.
To be a leader you have to see both sides. With LTT,s memories; hopefuly Rand is smart enough, and strong enough to use it to his advantage. Its time to kick some ass!

Ref; The LTT memories. Does anyone think Rands power has increased?
516. Freelancer

I completely understand the sense of disappointment you state regarding Graendal's demise, as well as Sammael's. After all the lead-up to the confrontation in Illian, the chase to Shadar Logoth, and the surprise appearance of Leah, for Sammael to get offed by Mashadar while Rand was mercifully balefiring Leah, it was odd indeed.

The compelling logical point for me regarding Graendel remains the vanishing (without a trace) of the Compulsion weave on Ramshalan. While it might be possible for Graendal to craft such a weave, the need and utility of it fade from plausibility when the number and variety of criteria are considered:

1. Graendal would have to suspect that Rand was employing a female channeler to validate the existence of Compulsion on his envoy. Not only is there no reason for her to suppose such a thing, but I rather believe that only someone remarkably skilled at delving could have picked up on Graendal's Compulsion weave in the first place.

2. Graendal would have to suspect that Rand conceived the idea to validate her death by having said female channeler detect the sudden absence of Compulsion. As Vizzini would say, "Inconceivable!"

3. Graendal would have to determine a timeframe for the Compulsion to disappear. Alternately, she would have to suspect that Rand was planning to use balefire in massive amounts, and set her weave to unravel upon sensing Rand's balefire. I don't believe we have any evidence that such an ability existed for a saidar user to set a weave with the ability to sense a particular weave of saidin.

4. Lastly, the weave must disappear with no trace. I think that we have ample evidence that the only way to make a weave leave no residue is to manually unweave it. Even Moridin didn't believe what he was seeing when Aviendha did that in Ebou Dar.

In summary:
~ The Compulsion is present when Ramshalan returns. Nynaeve identifies it as the same as she removed from that boy from the candlemaker's shop, as well as being "very strong". This verifies that the Compulsion did indeed come from Graendal, or else someone to whom she taught the weave. And who would she share this with? We never see her deal with Black sisters, and teaching someone else a weave with which they could control you, that's just not Graendal.

~ The Compulsion disappears, without residue, from Ramshalan immediately following Rand's destruction of the entire compound. Nynaeve says "It's gone", not "It's fading".

As Rand answered, "She's dead then."


I don't like a dark hero, never have and never will. It wasn't Rand being "dark" that led him to kill Graendal, other than that forcing his recognition that he could no longer avoid fighting and destroying bad guys who happened to be female. Nynaeve claims that she loathed what Rand had done. I submit that she is bringing upon herself guilt by association. It was her ability to sense and remove the Compulsion weave from that boy which gave Rand the idea for this plan. It was her skill that identified Ramshalan as being under the same weave, and again verified that the weave had vanished. So she considers herself a party to this attack, and that is what horrifies her more than Rand's apparent turn toward evil.

Finally, please give more detail on your belief that this ploy of Rand's was obvious, and do so from Graendal's POV. I don't agree, but I'm willing to be convinced by a compelling argument.

Survey input: German/Irish, 50/50. That's a double helping of stubborn, as if I needed to say.
Rob Munnelly
517. RobMRobM
Nor3 - Hi cousin! (Still no word from my brother on Irish connections between us in the little town of Killala, Mayo.) Yeah, people can consider themselves to be Irish Americans (or just Irish) quite a few generations down. For me, my paternal grandparents were born and raised in County Mayo and we see those Irish relations a lot. On my mother's side, it's a bit farther back - one line came to the States from County Longford in 1850s and another came from County Cork in 1870s (and settled in Manhattan and owned a farm up in the 170s.) Rest are an English greatgrandparent whose family came over in 1850s and a Scottish greatgrandparent.

Funny story - I was pretty proud of my Irish connections and then my great uncle brought me down to size when he told me that the Longford branch (which have an English sounding last name) were originally part of the English invasion force that came over with Cromwell. Oopsie. I now have lots more sympathies for the 20% or so portion of me that is England and Scottish....

Jerry Bennett
518. Isvarden
Just letting y'all know, I'll probably be a little qieter on this site for right now. I'm reading R. A. Salvatore's new unead season.
Janet Hopkins
519. JanDSedai
Glad you checked in so we won't worry about you. Or wonder what we said to scare you away!

And for scissorrunner @ 507-
from what I've seen on HGTV, a "centerpiece" is what you put on the table when you're trying to sell your house. I can't imagine what anyone would do with one otherwise; either you use you table(s) for food or stacks of books and papers, right?!

Nor3- My Irish ancestry may very well be one of those tenous connections merging on the legendary you talked about. But I don't think my great-granny Castille would ever admit to being Irish!
Birgit F
520. birgit
Dark Rand was on a completely wrong path. Why should he have been successful in anything?

Just because something is bad doesn't mean it doesn't work. If evil was automatically unsuccessful, there would be no bad guys.

So the survey is what ethnic background do you claim.

I'm German. My father's family actually has a family crest:
Marcus W
522. toryx
Cool crest, Birgit!

Freelancer @ 516:

I think your argument (and similar arguments by others) is definitely a strong one. I also agree that a lot of assumptions are required to explain the vanishing of Compulsion, many of which are inconceivable. Still, Vizzini certainly never got that one right. :)

I also freely admit that most of my feelings on Graendal survival are wishful ones. I suspect you're right and that she did indeed get extinguished by Rand's attack.

So I'm inclined to go forward from this point expecting that you're correct and hoping that you're not. It'd be a very pleasant surprise to have Graendal pop up again in one of the remaining books.

At least Lanfear is still around. I'd love to see her come face to face with New Rand (who is hopefully not as disappointing as New Coke.)
Don Barkauskas
523. bad_platypus
Expanding on one point from Freelancer @516:
This verifies that the Compulsion did indeed come from Graendal, or else someone to whom she taught the weave. And who would she share this with? We never see her deal with Black sisters, and teaching someone else a weave with which they could control you, that's just not Graendal.
In fact, after meeting with the Shaido, Graendel explicitly tells Sammael that she will not teach them Compulsion, because of the risk of strength and skill coming together. Thus, she would never teach anyone capable of performing the weave.
Tess Laird
524. thewindrose
toryx - While I believe Graendal has been balefired, I have a feeling we will see some of her in ToM as there will be overlapping time lines happening. I am positive she has some nasty surprises for team light that will plague them for some time.

New Rand = New Coke That's funny:)

I am 1/2 German and then 1/4 Scottish 1/8 Romanian and 1/8 German. My kids will be even more mixed as my husband is 1/2 native American and 1/4 Scottish 1/8 Irish(yes Irish) 1/8 German.
My husband has done some research on his Scottish side and has a family crest, I will have to look at it when I am at home and then describe it.

Also a note for nor3 - Most Americans claim they are Irish on March 17th(especially college age ones;)) Something to do with green beer and partying.

525. nor3
@windrose : Good point. I hadn't taken into account how enjoyable our national pasttime is :P

@RobM : Hi Cousin! :P There have been many waves of ''invasion'' from Britain, starting with the Normans c. 1100 (they were French, technically, but still), then a series of plantations (including Cromwell's) over several hundred years, so it's not really surprising that you've got English/Scottish blood. There's BOUND to be some in me too, but I don't know of any ancestors born off the island, and my family would fall under the nationalist grouping (insofar as those distinctions have any meaning any more, particularly south of the border), so any British blood is probably quite a while back.

@birgit : Cool crest! I vaguely remember seeing a family crest of mine a long time ago. I think it had boars on it. Couldn't be 100% certain though.
Maiane Bakroeva
526. Isilel
Freelancer @516:

Finally, please give more detail on your belief that this ploy of Rand's was obvious, and do so from Graendal's POV.

Will try to oblige ;). Now, it is difficult to say for sure what Graendal should or shouldn't have known, but I hope that we could agree on these things:

* She knew that Rand was specifically looking for her. He did tell that to anybody who would listen whilst in Arad Doman, after all.

* She knew that Rand would be familiar with her habitual MO due to Asmodean's tutelage - i.e. would know to look for Compulsion.

* She knew that 3rd agers could Delve and that some of them must be very good at it indeed, to Heal severing.

* She knew that a rather large number of female channelers worked for Rand.

All of this should have told her that her Compulsion on Rand's envoy was pretty likely to be discovered.

Particularly if it is not inverted - of course we don't know if it can be, but according to the famous quote of Sammael, Graendal _can_ use it undetectably, if she chooses, i.e. "not even the closest scrutiny would reveal any trace of her" or something along those lines.

* Oh, and she also knew that Rand and his followers had some very powerful sa'angreal and angreal at their disposal. She was at the Cleansing, after all.

Now the obvious part of Rand's plan was that Ramshalan was very clearly a stalking horse/goat, whatever.
His story made zero sense, his sudden appearance was incredibly suspicious and it wasn't like Rand has a reputation of never letting _men_ come to harm.

So, why would Graendal, if she had 2 neurons to rub together, perform her signature move on him, without even trying for any obfuscation?

It was not necessary for her to forsee "death validation" or Rand's use of balefire. The notion that Rand was looking to validate her _presence_ by having Compulsion weaves detected was the simplest logic, though.
And it isn't like Graendal would have wanted to be captured either, particularly after seeing Moggy's and hearing about Semi's plight or wished to die by means other than balefire.

The notion that she thought that she could escape in time after letting Ramshalan go, if Rand or her followers moved on her, is not convincing either, seeing that she was dealing with a Travelling ta'veren who had some very powerful sa'angreal at his disposal.

Re: the weave on Ramshalan disappearing without a "trace" - Nyn doesn't have the very rare Talent of seeing residues, so she couldn't distinguish if the weave dissipated or never was applied in the first place.

Now, I'll have to adress the 2 most common objections to Graendal's possible survival, i.e.:

1) That nearing the end means that we have to be getting rid of the FS at a steady clip.

Well, it is not a video game, where you need to hit all the bullet points before the final boss is unlocked.
Whatever Rand and Co need to do to seal the DO probably doesn't directly have to do with any of the FS except Morishy.
Moreover, extra FS can be gotten rid of during the Last Battle in a much more satisfying manner and really, the many portents of turbulence to come after "the great battle is done" leave room for a few of them to survive, too.

2) That the FS just aren't living up to their legend.
We have more than the legend, though. We have LTT's opinions and Asmo's. Of course, we could also say that LTT was pretty dim and everybody in the AoL who admired him and made him their leader was dumb as a stump... etc. Rings in the water. By diminishing the FS we also diminish everybody who unsuccessfully opposed them in the past.

OK, this wall-of-text notwithstanding, certainly Graendal could be dead.
I would find it extremely disappointing, impausible and clumsy, but I thought the same about Sammy's demise and Semi's capture too and the WoT rolls on ;).

Bad_platypus @523:

Thus, she would never teach anyone capable of performing the weave.

A non-sequitur, surely? Some of those Shaido are nearly FS strength, IIRC. Nothing says that she wouldn't have taught it to a an average BA, if one happened to be under her thumb.
Matthew Smith
527. blocksmith

I am mostly observing this discussion (as I am already convinced Graendal is toast...strike that...yesterday's toast) but I will offer this.

My understanding is that Compulsion could be used like a hammer (devastating to the one compelled and very effective within the bounds of the purpose of the Compulsion) or like a scalpel (very specific and complex, not as devastating, but also not as strong/intense).

The strongest Compulsion can be detected easily by someone that knows how to delve. The finesse Compulsion, however, is much harder to detect. But not impossible. Also, Nyn did have the "sample" to compare her observations to. Of course, ICBW.

Edited for spelling and addition
Antoni Ivanov
528. tonka
* She knew that Rand was specifically looking for her. He did tell that to anybody who would listen whilst in Arad Doman, after all.

He needn't tell anybody that he was looking for her. The Forsaken were very much aware that Rand coming in Arad Doman puts Graendal on the front line.

* She knew that Rand would be familiar with her habitual MO due to Asmodean's tutelage - i.e. would know to look for Compulsion.

I wouldn't say she knew that due to Asmodean's tutelage, but rather because she knew he is LTT in some fashion. She was the first one to deduce correctly that Rand is having memories from past life (Semi and before that Lanfear mentioned Graendal about that)

* She knew that 3rd agers could Delve and that some of them must be very good at it indeed, to Heal severing.

Yes.Though I don't see the big deal.

* She knew that a rather large number of female channelers worked for Rand.


All of this should have told her that her Compulsion on Rand's envoy was pretty likely to be discovered.

She is the best at what she is doing and the Forsaken are pretty good at being overconfident. And even if she knew she would have prepared herself for these possibilities.

It was not necessary for her to forsee "death validation" or Rand's use of balefire. The notion that Rand was looking to validate her _presence_ by having Compulsion weaves detected was the simplest logic, though.

This is where I have problem. Because it is not simplest logic at all. You've read the book and you know what happens, and it's easy to say that.
You said that Rand has a reputation "of never letting _men_ come to harm". But then he balefires a whole palace of people. Does that make sense?
The whole thing was abrupt and fast.That was the whole purpose of it.Unexpected.The leap is not obvious at all.And the compulsion could not just disappear like that *puff* and it's gone.She doesn't have a remote to switch it off from afar.
And Nynaeve proved herself that she can detect Graendal's finest since she detected that kid's compulsion.
529. nor3
It's about time I weighed in on the Graendal issue.

It seems to me that it's Rand's METHOD that is the key to Graendal figuring it out. So far, he has personally battled Ishy (a few times), Aginor, Asmodean, Bel'al (sorta), Rhavin, Sammael and Semirhage, all in ONE ON ONE battles. So... Graendal is supposed to assume that his next assault on the forsaken will be using a long-range blast of balefire so strong that ripples in reality are felt as far away as Ebou Dar? Non-sequitur of the month, surely.

I accept that she might very well expect an attack, possibly soon. That's reasonable. But if I was in her shoes, I would have to assume that his assault would be at least vaguely similar to his previous, prooven-to-work tactics, ie. gating in and fighting one-on-one (with some back-up). It's how he went about targeting Sammael and Rhavin in their fortresses, why wouldn't he do the same with Graendal's fortress?

And surely the logical way to counter the threat of someone gating in would be to set up (more) wards and defences, like Rhavin's ''lightning-storm-on-an-opening-gateway'' tactics, which very nearly worked. Which, prehaps, she was doing when she got burned out of existance. After all, if she's so smart, why would she run away, when she could set up a devastating trap? She has as much time as it takes for Rand to gather his assault force (she thinks), which could easily be an hour or two, and even if he gated in right then before she had her defences all primed, she could still gate the heck out of there when her wards go off. And if she was setting up a trap, surely she would want Rand to know she was there and make him come in, in which case she would use an almighty hammer of compulsion on poor Rasha-whatsit.

That, to me, seems a more likely scenario than her just simply disappearing into the ether.

One last point, @Isilel 526 : '' ''Thus, she would never teach anyone capable of performing the weave.''

A non-sequitur, surely? Some of those Shaido are nearly FS strength, IIRC. Nothing says that she wouldn't have taught it to a an average BA, if one happened to be under her thumb.

Well, strength alone doesn't mean they could get her. An ''average'' BA could still surprise her/catch her off gaurd, even if she was ''under thumb''. Only a moment would be all it would take, and such powerfull compulsion would leave Graendal an empty shell in an instant. Small point, but still.
Karen Fox
530. thepupxpert
Survey: my mother is Russian/Spanish and my father is Italian/French/American Indian/German/Mexican. I always have to put down "other" in surveys because I'm more than 5 ethnicities.
Marcus W
531. toryx
tonka @ 528:

The whole thing was abrupt and fast.That was the whole purpose of it.Unexpected.

It's been a couple of months now since I read TGS but didn't Rand and the others have to wait quite a while for Ramshalan to get back? Once he did, Rand acted quickly but before that I seem to recall him standing around for a while.

And the compulsion could not just disappear like that *puff* and it's gone.She doesn't have a remote to switch it off from afar.

As far as you know. Sammael's Compelled courier popped like *that* when Rand gave him his answer. Graendal's acknowledged to be the supreme expert on Compulsion. If there were weavings that could provide a near instantaneous remote release from afar she'd likely know how to do it.

Furthermore, who says she was watching from afar? We know that there are ways to weave Saidar without it being detected, disguises galore are available to she who knows how. For all we know, she could have followed him discretely back to where Rand was, saw Rand use an unholy amount of the Power to baelfire the shit out of her palace and released the Compulsion at that instant.

Granted, that's reaching...we have no evidence whatsoever to suggest she did so. But we have no way of knowing she didn't either.

And Nynaeve proved herself that she can detect Graendal's finest since she detected that kid's compulsion.

Actually, she didn't prove that at all. If Graendal did suspect something was up, and did want to Compel Ramshalan with a particularly tricky weave, it'd be easy for her to leave it relatively obvious to her point of view so that she could ensure that a skilled Delver would be able to find it. Graendal is not the sort to reveal her full strength if she doesn't think she needs to.

nor3 @ 529:

It's how he went about targeting Sammael and Rhavin in their fortresses, why wouldn't he do the same with Graendal's fortress?

People keep bring up how much Graendal knows about Rand as an argument for why she wouldn't expect him to balefire the place. Looking at it from another angle, however, Graendal also seemed to suspect that odd things might occur from Rand being the Dragon Reborn. She may well suspect that there's some of Lews Therin to Rand's astonishing capabilities.

Beyond that, she also knows that he has qualms about killing women. Yet she also knows that Rand has got to be concerned with ways to eliminate the female Forsaken who are his enemies. It wouldn't take much to consider that if he can't bring himself to kill a woman while he's facing her, maybe he can figure out a way to bring himself to do so from a distance.

And surely the logical way to counter the threat of someone gating in would be to set up (more) wards and defences, like Rhavin's ''lightning-storm-on-an-opening-gateway'' tactics, which very nearly worked.

The keyword is "nearly." Ravin followed that scheme and still died. Sammael had been setting up a trap for longer than Rand had been planning his, and still, Rand came out on top. Graendal's a smart cookie; to expect her to use the same tactics that everyone else did after seeing how much good it did them is underestimating her intelligence.

Besides, she's not as brash as either Sammael or Rahvin. She isn't as shadowy as Moghedian, but I'm pretty sure I can recall her saying or thinking that she had no intention of ever facing Rand if she could help it. Knowing that he knows where she's at, that he might be coming for her, I think it's far more likely that she'd give up her treasures and get the hell out. After all, she'd already been considering that very thing in previous books.

Well, strength alone doesn't mean they could get her. An "average" BA could still surprise her/catch her off gaurd, even if she was "under thumb".

This is Graendal that we're talking about. She could easily lay a compulsion on any BA that she had working for her that would absolutely forbid them from harming her. I don't think she'd have anyone else put the Compulsion on Ramshalam either, but I seriously doubt that an "average" BA would be any threat to her whatsoever. Moghedian, who isn't nearly as skilled or clever as Graendal, was quite capable of keeping several BA under her thumb without any difficulties whatsoever.
532. avox
Isilel @526
Now the obvious part of Rand's plan was that Ramshalan was very clearly a stalking horse/goat, whatever.
His story made zero sense, his sudden appearance was incredibly suspicious and it wasn't like Rand has a reputation of never letting _men_ come to harm.

So, why would Graendal, if she had 2 neurons to rub together, perform her signature move on him, without even trying for any obfuscation?

Ok, so I'm Graendal in my super-cool hideout and suddenly there's a stalking horse from the DR at my door. What are my options?

a) Flee immediately
b) Stay and send Ramshalan back untouched
c) Stay and use heavy compulsion on Ramshalan
d) Stay and use unnoticeable compulsion on Ramshalan

What would be the consequences?
a) I loose my pets and can't follow Moridin's order to cause chaos in Arad Doman. I would be save from the DR but might piss off Moridin / the DO / SH.
b) Ramshalan will tell what he's seen and I've no idea what the DR will do next. Very high danger of being confronted by the DR next and either being killed or forced to flee.
c) If the DR has the means to notice the compulsion, I'm no better off than in b), but not much worse (if the DR didn't suspect me to be here, he wouldn't have send the stalking horse in the first place). If the DR doesn't notice the compulsion, I have control over what he thinks about my hideout and I might give Ramshalan some special orders to further my interests.
d) The DR will still suspect I'm here and have used compulsion on Ramshalan. Since I can only use a little compulsion I have less control over what Ramshalan will say and do, so I'm no better off than b)

Ok decision time:
Obviously only a) and c) have some attraction. Thinking about how Moridin got angry about Semirhage not following orders and how Mesaana got punished for avoiding the fight at the cleansing, a) might be more risky than staying. So it's c).

But wait, what if the DR balefires my whole hideout? Do I better choose a) or should I:
1. use heavy compulsion on the stalking horse and send him back
2. use some devious trick so the compulsion vanishes after the balefiring
3. get the hell out of here.
4. tell Moridin "sorry that I had to give up Arad Doman, but I knew the DR would balefire me next and at least I made sure that the stupid sucker now thinks I'm dead, that's pretty good, no?"

Sorry folks, that just doesn't make sense from Graendal's view. If she had suspected massive balefire it would have been option a) without loosing any time for playing with compulsion.
Rob Munnelly
533. RobMRobM
Very interesting Graendel comments.

I believe several of the "Graendel lives team" are missing the point that Graendel will have a lot of uncertainty regarding what the DR knows about her. Her location is not common knowledge and the few who know it are compelled and would have to be both identified and unscrambled by the DR, which may well be viewed as unlikely. She has to consider the very real possibility that Ram is what he says he is - a messenger seeking help from local nobility, and she is merely considered one of the local nobility. So fleeing might cause her to lose a strong hideout unnecessarily and actually put her in jeopardy (as well as losing her pretties.) Also, fleeing or trying some form of fancy trap on Ram might actually raise suspicions that weren't there to begin with.

That factor makes it highly unlikely that she would assume it is certain he knows and so set up a fancy pants counter. So what does she do? Not run - too risky. Not send him back untouched because that might give the DR info to confirm her presence and cause her to have to bail out and lose her base. Sending Ram back with compulsion makes perfect sense - hides her location and potentially creates a useful tool that can give her and other Foresaken advantages against the DR. There is, of course, a risk of attack (probably viewed by her as a low to medium risk in light of uncertainty whether DR actually knows she is there at all) but she is well aware that his MO has been frontal attack (Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael). So, she'll set up her wards and magical defenses and have a gateway ready to depart in case the low probability of an attack actually occurs. I am skeptical of arguments that she should have assumed use of the Choedan Kal against her in a thermonuclear blast - he has never used it that way before.

534. nor3
toryx@531 : Ok, forgive me if this rebuttal wanders a bit or doesn't make a whole lot of sense, cause I am very tired and should really get some sleep ... Anyway....

re Greandal ''knowing'' Rand : There may very well be ''some of Lews Therin to Rand'', but that arguement is irrelevant since we don't know a thing about LT's tactics, so we (the readers) have to base our assumption's on Rand's past actions. Graendal might have some info about LT's generalship, but we can't speculate.

Rand might not be able to kill a woman face-to-face, but that doesn't automatically mean he'd jump to long-range tactics. He has used them on large targets such as armies (Shaido in Cairhein and Seanchan in Altara), but never to take out a single person. If there is a specific target, he has only ever used a surgical (collateral damage notwithstanding) strike. Furthermore, his allies have fought Forsaken on his behalf before (Moiraine vs. Bel'al, for example), and both Lanfear and Moghidien were neutralised by his allies (untill they were reborn/freed), so it's not unreasonable to assume he might use a proxy again.

I'm not clear how much info she had on Semerhaige's demise, but either she thinks Rand did it (In which case, women killing isn't that much of an issue anymore (granted, he did it under duress, but she might not know that, and even if she does, as a psychologist, she knows that people often get over their fears when they are forced to confront them)) OR someone did it for him.

SO... It's a choice between a long range shot, which he has NEVER done before against a single target, or someone (either Rand or a proxy) attacking her personally, which has happened many times before....

Re traps : " Rhavin's ''lightning-storm-on-an-opening-gateway'' tactics, which very nearly worked.

The keyword is "nearly." "

Actually, I think the key words are ''very nearly''. Mat and Aviendha were killed, along with a bunch of Aiel. If a single lightning bolt had fallen slightly differently, Rand would have been toast. He is Ta'vern, but we have been told many times that this does not make you indestructable, and not even Mat (also a Ta'vern and with the added bonus of ridiculous supernatural luck) survived. Replay those events and Rand might very well have died. No reason why she wouldn't at least try. (Note : I'm not counting Sammael's ''trap'' because that more or less consisted of going to Shadar Logoth and hoping Rand got eaten by Mashadar, which, as traps go, kinda sucks. )

Yes, she runs from confrontation, but that doesn't mean she won't leave a nasty surprise behind her. She wouldn't have gotten very far up the Forsaken ladder if she just ran away and never took any measure to eliminate competition. I think people are taking "she runs away from fights" too litterally. She runs away, yes, but that doesn't mean she doesn't leave the enemy with a few parting shots.

I'm saying that it is much more plausible for her to set up SOME kind of trap before she left. And maybe she was setting it up when she was balefired, or maybe she was hanging around to set it off, or maybe she was moving her pets out of range. It just seems far more plausible that she was setting up some kind of defence/preparing for the attack in some way. (Which does NOT imply that she was planning on standing her ground, only that she wanted to get SOMETHING to her advantage out of the situation. She can still easily flee when Rand actually shows up)

...aaaaaaaaand I'll leave it there. I really need to sleep now.
535. Freelancer
Nynaeve painstakingly (and you can be sure accurately, since we're talking about Nynaeve), removes the Compulsion weave from the boy by overlaying an exact negative of each layer. When she finishes, the boy dies within moments. LTT leaking through Rand tells Nynaeve that she didn't kill him, the Compulsion had pushed who he had been out of the way, and was the only life left in him, (or something to that effect).

In the case of Ramshalan, even if you believe that Graendal was able to deduce from thin air every aspect of Rand's plan; even if you believe that she had a secondary weave tied to the Compulsion on Ramshalan set to remove it based either on time or some specific trigger; even if you believe that such a removal of the Compulsion would seem so complete to Nynaeve's delving as to be without a trace of residue:

Nynaeve said very specifically that the Compulsion on Ramshalan was "very heavy". It would have taken over a big piece of who he was, just as with the boy. Yet when it left, he was completely unaffected. The only rational explanation for this is that he suddenly had never been under Compulsion, a clear indicator of a temporal reversion, meaning that the weaver of said Compulsion had become the victim of balefire. This is what is obvious to me.

Now you just need to believe that it was some other nefarious and extremely gifted female channeler who applied the Compulsion to Ramshalan and sent him back with a message designed to pull Rand into a trap, and not Graendal.

"She's dead, then."
Jay Dauro
536. J.Dauro

My dad's parents were from Sicily, which means probably a mixture of Italian and Spanish, with a smidgen of most of Europe thrown in.

My mom's family goes back to the American Revolution (DAR and UDC), with English, Scottish and Irish ancestors.

So heaven knows what that makes me. I claim half-blood Italian usually. Other than that I can't compute fractions.
Tricia Irish
537. Tektonica

Thank you!
That sound definitive to me.
Say amen.
the Wicked Witch is Dead!
Rob Munnelly
538. RobMRobM
Tek - so Free gets to be Dorothy with the falling house and Nor3, myself and others get to be like the penguins in Madagascar ("Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave").

Just so we're clear on that. R

p.s. Amen.
Tricia Irish
539. Tektonica
Thanks to you are most erudite and clear and thorough!
Arguments were excellently and cogently made....on all sides.
I have enjoyed reading them. I have been educated in all things Graendal.

Edit: Begging pardon to all Case Makers I forgot to mention.
**retreats to Bunker, tail between legs**
Thomas Keith
540. insectoid
Free @535: Yup, Graendal's toast.

Tek @537: I know it's really awful of me, but since I now have it stuck in my head, I'm going to make you all suffer along ;)
Ding, dong, the Witch is dead
Which old Witch?
The Wicked Witch!
Ding, dong, the Wicked Witch is dead!
And while I'm at it:
Follow the yellow brick road
Follow the yellow brick road
Follow, follow, follow, follow
Follow the yellow brick road
Anyone who wants to WoTify those songs is welcome...

Rob Munnelly
541. RobMRobM
@540 - saving the first song for Elaida. And Sevanna. And Thereva. And Galina. And Liandrin. And maybe Cadsuane, although I don't think she is all that bad....
Linda Taglieri
542. Linda
@244 subwoofer

This week I posted an article that goes into sanitation, obstetrics, personal care and the like as described in the books and compares them to the 17th-18th centuries in our world.

Some of the big cities do have sewers (Caemlyn and Tar Valon are two).

I always found the universal 100% effective possibly instant acting contraceptive a little hard to swallow.

The closest we come to asepsis in the series is at the beginning when Nynaeve insists that she and her helpers wash their hands between patients after Winternight. (Something that lazy Western doctors have been caught not doing...)

Sanitation (and that means clean water too) and innoculation were the really big factors increasing life expectancy in our world.
Helen Peters
543. Helen
Hello, did you miss me? What do you mean 'who am I?' I made it to one of Birgit's lists waaay back up there, yeah, it surprised me as well!

@542. Linda
One of the questions way back when I was at college had a graph showing the incidence of diphtheria. The number of cases started going down dramatically several years before vaccination, mainly due to better sanitation.

Add to that the population density in Randland is less than here so diseases are not going to spread as quickly.

Back up there someone mentioned that Morgase's mum died during the succession as an example of short life expectancy. Could it have been sort of one of Elaida's greatest mistakes, was she round Morgase at the time? We know she mucked up her prophecy regarding the ruling house, could she have decided to get rid of Morgase's mum as she'd be harder to manipulate than teenage Morgase?

This could be the reason for the orphaned heads of houses that supported Elayne, that their parents (obviously not all) had been selectively assasinated. If not the reason for their early demise could be that they live too well, not doing the chores but eating the equivalent of the unhealthy western diet that we have now. Just a possibility.

Or was it an early demise? Henry VIII was only in his 50s when he popped his clogs, and left a 9 year old to come to the throne.

For the survey: English parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc (so far as I know), but if you go back about 1000 years my ancestors probably came over with William in 1066, or pretty soon after; so I'm more Norman than Celt.
Marcus W
544. toryx
RobM @ 533:

Actually, the biggest issue I have is that I don't believe that Graendal would not be aware by Ramshalan's presence that Rand knows where she is. I can't believe that she wouldn't be able to figure that out by Compelling Ramshalan to tell her everything he knows.

Now I could be wrong, but it's inconceivable (heh) to me that she wouldn't be able to know at least that much. So if Graendal knows that Rand is aware of where she is, I can't think of any rational reason for her to stay around. Yes, as others have pointed out, she might be worried about Morindin and the DO. But I think she puts her life at a higher priority than her wish to avoid punishment.

I also do not believe for a second that Graendal has been there as long as she has been without already having all her traps ready and willing, as well as having a backup location to retreat to. Isn't there a chapter in one of the earlier books when she was actually considering doing just that? Abandoning her stronghold and retreating to a second location? I sure wish I had the time to scour through the books looking for passages to support my argument.

nor3 @ 534:

re Greandal ''knowing'' Rand : There may very well be ''some of Lews Therin to Rand'', but that arguement is irrelevant since we don't know a thing about LT's tactics, so we (the readers) have to base our assumption's on Rand's past actions. Graendal might have some info about LT's generalship, but we can't speculate.

Sorry, man, but I just can't do that. I can't look at the argument from what I know about Rand or LTT because that's completely independent of what Graendal knows. And Graendal's actions are completely dependent on the information she has, the intelligence that she has to call upon, and her own feelings of self-preservation. That's entirely independent of our knowledge about Rand and his actions.

I don't think Graendal or anyone else (except possibly Moridin) could possibly know what happened to Semirhage. We certainly have no evidence to suggest that her fate has become common knowledge so there's no point in using that information to determine how Graendal might react to it.

Furthermore, I don't think Graendal could possibly know how close Rand came to dying when he attacked Rahvin. The deaths of Mat, Aviendha and the others were completely undone when Rand balefired the bastard, and therefore none of that information exists for Graendal to consider.

I'm saying that it is much more plausible for her to set up SOME kind of trap before she left.

And as I said to RobM, I don't see how we can possibly expect those traps not to have already been set months before. It's not like Graendal is going to hang out in her secret lair for over a year without having traps and protections galore set-up, just waiting for a strong hint of danger before getting busy.

And all her pretties probably didn't mean all that much to her. When Sammael went and killed one, she was annoyed but almost more at having to have the floor scrubbed than anything else. They're playthings, small amusements. She could go and find a new collection of them if she needed to. There's no way she'd risk her life over her collection.

Freelancer @ 535:

Nynaeve said very specifically that the Compulsion on Ramshalan was "very heavy".

The problem is, I don't consider Nynaeve to be an expert on Compulsion, especially not compared to Moghedian and Graendal. What seems "very heavy" to her might be childs play for Graendal.

Yeah, she's one of the most gifted healers of all time, she's incredibly powerful and she knows her stuff but I never got the impression that Healing and Compulsion were remotely the same. The only thing they have in common is that they use really complex weaves.

But a skilled weaver can put together a very complex pattern and still know how to set it up so that the whole thing collapses with the pluck of one string. That's not what Nynaeve does; she places weaves on people and heals them with it; she doesn't spend a lot of time unraveling them, no matter how efficient she was with the boy.

Sorry to go and fill y'all's screens with another text heavy pummeling of the dead horse. But I feel compelled to rebut critiques of my arguments. :)
Antoni Ivanov
545. tonka
On the same note. Graendal very likely knew that the Dragon Reborn knew her location. After compelling Ramshalan she probably extracted the whole conversation between Rand and him. She also probably knew that Rand must have suspected for some time that this is her hideout. But she has not way of knowing for certain that Rand knows that she is hiding there. For all that matter it might be what it seems , a messenger send to nobles to gather their support. Of course Graendal is not stupid and she is not going to believe that. But she cannot be certain. So what is she going to think ?
The Dragon knows, or at least suspects her location, and therefore he must have known or suspected for quite some time.If he wanted to make his move (e.i. attack) he would have by now. But he has known Sammael's location and Rahvin's and he's never attacked until he was provoked by something. Is he going to attack now.But if he does why does he sent this man (Ramshalan)? She would think that he is trying to play a game with her, or try to send a spy, or to find a way if she is really there.... or something else.
The problem is how is she going to make the logical leap that he is sending this men so that she can compel him, then balefire a whole building full of innocent people (something neither Rand or LTT would have done as far as she knows, as far as any person knows. Remember Min and Ny's shock) and use him to verify if she is dead. People wouldn't think of things they think are impossible and this scenario scratches impossibility as far as you can go.

@531. toryx
About Nyaneave and her skillzzz..: Graendal was sending the boy to a place where she knew the DR would be. Do you really think that she would have done anything but her best ?
Marcus W
546. toryx
tonka @ 545:

We're talking about two different instances. I was referring to the Compulsion put on Ramshalan. Freelancer is the one who brought up the boy. I assume he's talking about the one Nynaeve had found out to try and prove her worth.

I hadn't even thought of the latter instance until Freelancer brought it up @ 535. I still don't think that Nynaeve has enough experience to be a judge of Graendal's best work after delving two people under the Forsaken's Compulsion.
Tricia Irish
547. Tektonica
Someone above, I'm sorry, I can't find it, mentioned that they weren't at all sure that the ray of light at the end of tGS meant that all was going to be happiness and light with Rand, and the land.

I certainly took it as an almost Biblical ray of hope. Egwene comments on it from her window in the Tower. It is noticeable after many weeks of darkness and roiling clouds. I understood it as Rand understanding his duty, the value of hope and love, and a lifting of his darkness. He came to realize that he was a reincarnation of LTT and has made a new peace with himself.

Not that he's going to do a 180 immediately. He has many past decisions to face and reconcile, people to deal with, Tam, Cads, Min, etc.. But I definitely felt hope that he could now move forward with purpose, walking in the Light.

Whether the land can be healed just by his attitude adjustment is a real question. I almost think he needs to cleanse himself of the TP "taint" that infected him after he balefired Semi, which might entail some sort of separation from Moridan. But how? Can he use his connection to Mori in some positive way? Spy on his plans and dreams? Turn him toward the Light? Will Rand's attitude shift on Dragonmount be enough to remove the "darkness" of the TP? Can he remove the darkness and remain tied to Mori? Should he?

I'm imagining that the true healing of the land will need the rediscovery of the Song, through LTT, or the Ogier Gardners, in a group effort with Perrin, the Tu'athan, Loial, etc.

I'd love any to hear any thoughts you all might have on these questions.
Rob Munnelly
548. RobMRobM
Yes. Immediate ray of light confirms Rand bond with Randland. Unclear the extent Randland will be better because he is in better place but it will get better. R
549. nor3
@toryx 544 :

Yes, I know, Greandal knows about Lews Therin from the AoL, yadda yadda yadda, but my point was just that this fact doesn't support your arguement or my arguement or anyone elses, since from then on you are just speculating wildly. If you say ''Graendal knew Rand would balefire her cause LTT did it all the time'', I can just say ''Graendal knew Rand wouldn't balefire her cause LTT would never do such a thing''. Neither statement can be prooven nor disprooven, so it's a moot point, and there's no point wasting our time with it any further. That was all I meant.

As regards to Semirhage, I did say it wasn't clear that Graendal knew about her death.

"Furthermore, I don't think Graendal could possibly know how close Rand came to dying when he attacked Rahvin. The deaths of Mat, Aviendha and the others were completely undone when Rand balefired the bastard, and therefore none of that information exists for Graendal to consider."

I disagree completely. Balefire doesn't remove memories (Mat remembered the darkhounds chewing through his door), so anyone who saw them die would rememebr it. And we know that there was AT LEAST one darkfriend among the Aiel strike force, since Moghidien knew about Rand's attack before it happened. Furthermore, Graendal was in an alliance with Rhavin at the time (and Sammael and Lanfear), so she would have had a reason to take an interest in the whole debacle, and find out how it all went down. (And I hate to bring up the 'who killed Asmodean' thing, but the encyclopaedia's entry on the topic gives a compelling argument for Graendal herself to have been in Camelyn at the time of Rand's attack, and seen the whole thing first hand)

Remember, the Dark Side's intellegance network is vast. Darkfriends are everywhere, and even the rats report to him. While they don't know everything, it is reasonable to suppose that they know alot.

"I don't see how we can possibly expect those traps not to have already been set months before"

That doesn't mean she doesn't have to be around to actually set them off, lurking in the basement or some cubby hole were Rand wasn't likely to gate into. Also, it is possible that she didn't have the really nasty traps set up yet cause they would interfere with her day-to-day channeling.

And I accept your point about her pets, but my point about them was more about her getting them out from under her feet than anything else.
550. Freelancer

I agree that Nynaeve's judgement of Graendal's abilities would be suspect. But I posit that her description of "heavy" regarding Ramshalan's Compulsion is not absolute to Graendal's capacity, but relative to that she discovered in the boy (and likely informed by both her experience as a victim of Moghedien's "light" Compulsion, and that Egwene forced Moghedien to show them the weave). She became intimately familiar with that example of Compulsion, to be able to vaporize it by perfectly matching the weave in negative form, so I insist that her opinion is valid in this regard. If she believes Ramshalan's Compulsion to be as strong or stronger than that found in the boy (and what other interpretation would we accrue from the use of the word "heavy" in that statement?), then it would follow that said Compulsion's impact on the man would have matched or exceeded the same influence on the young man.

That young man died in spite of Nynaeve's most careful extraction of the weave from him, but Ramshalan is fine following the balefire attack.

Now I call to remembrance where other forsaken have mentioned the wastefulness of Graendal's strong Compulsion on her "pets", that the person is never the same. This must be true even if the weave is removed by the original channeler, or the lament would have no teeth. This means that Graendal herself is unable to remove a strong version of Compulsion effectively enough to leave the victim unaffected. Which in turn makes Ramshalan an excellent indicator that the balefire attack did indeed wipe out whomever used Compulsion on him.

"She's dead then."

Bela, forgive me. I'll let you rest now.
Marcus W
551. toryx
Tektonica @ 547:

I don't know where it was (maybe in the Spoiler part 2 thread?) but I was the one who said that I think the ray of light was a metaphor for the change in Rand, and not significant of...well, anything.

I certainly took it as an almost Biblical ray of hope.

That's a great way to put it. I took it in a "that bagel is shaped like the Virgin Mary!" kind of way. In my original post I said that I thought the break in the clouds was caused by Rand almost destroying himself (and possibly the world, given the power he was wielding) messing with the weather. Concentrating that much of the One Power in one spot may have been enough to create a rift in the clouds all by itself.

But I absolutely agree that the real danger to Rand and the land immediately around him is the taint from the True Power. Until that's solved, I believe that he's going to continue to cast that dark shadow wherever he goes no matter how integrated he now is.

Nor3 @ 549 and Freelancer @ 550:

Points taken. I think I'm just going to offer a willingness to agree to disagree. The horse is starting to stink and I don't want to blind people with my arguments, particularly since I'm definitely in the minority on this one.
Maiane Bakroeva
552. Isilel
OK, folks, a couple of parting shots about Graendal:

I fail to see how her leaving her lair translates into abandoning Arad Doman and her mission from Morishy and the DO. The woman can Travel and could stay somewhere less characteristic if she chose. It is not even a bump on the road where her mission is concerned.

Fighting back _would_ be a risk not only to her life, but also of running seriously afoul of Morishy's prohibitions on wounding Rand physically. So, not only is she at severe disadvantage strength-wise, but her hands are pretty much tied where fighting is concerned.
No room for traps, even.
And her premier ability doesn't work on a man holding saidin, too. What is she going to do but run?

Use of balefire is irrelevant. Rand descending on the lair with his followers (as he did in Caemlyn and Illian and from FS POV in Tear too) would be nearly as bad. He has a lot of them and they have powerful sa'angreal, angreal and ter'angreal, as Graendal could see at the Cleansing. She might escape... or she might not.

Ramshalan's "mission" is suspicious as all heck (what are the odds of Rand _starting_ his bid for support with Natrin's Barrow?!) and of course if she questioned him at all, she'd know that there is Rand's gateway standing open right on her doorstep. It would take no time at all for Rand and his channelers to Travel right into her lair.

Also, Graendal had at least a quarter of an hour to decamp and to remove anything she particularly valued, while Ramshalan was trudging back to the gateway.

Finally, let me quote one monsieur Rahvin on Compulsion:

"...he tied off the strands of Spirit lightly, so they would evaporate from her mind shortly after she reached the street. Repeated use of compulsion made obedience easier even when it was not in use, but while it was, there was always a danger that it might be detected"

TFOH Prologue

So, yes, the compeller can set it up so that the weaves would vanish by themselves - and also the FS were fully cognizant that it can be discovered.

Which makes compulsion on Ramshalan so incongruous, because who was _more likely_ to be checked for compulsion than an emissary of the DR? When the DR has openly announced that he was searching for Graendal, whose signature move it is?
Marcus W
553. toryx
Isilel @ 552:

Well said. *applause*

Here's my last word on the subject (unless openly invited for more):

I don't outright disagree with the general opinion that yes, Graendal is dead. I think you're probably all right about that. I'm arguing that she shouldn't be. Considering all my arguments and those that Isilel has presented, Graendal not only could be alive, she should be.
If she's dead because Rand's trick worked, then I think that's of poor service to Graendal's character as has been described in the past several books regardless of whether Sanderson wrote it exactly as RJ intended it or did it his own way.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Rob Munnelly
554. RobMRobM
Whack, whack, whack - not hearing any neighs.

Leigh - please save us. We'll send you cybercookies, promise.

555. nor3
@toryx : offer accepted!

I think all relevant arguements have been made. Please let it end here.
Matthew Smith
557. blocksmith

Slicing and dicing the dead horse...

IIRC, Rand remarks that the Compulsion used by Graendal on the first spy was so strong that when the Compulsion was removed, it left nothing able to live behind. This has been confirmed by other Forsaken during introspectives on Graendal that the form of Compulsion she used on her slaves (the slack jawed adoration) is heavy handed and leaves room for nothing else. I think we can therefore conclude that Nyn can recognize at least the heavy-handed Compulsion.

I agree she would not risk her life for her pretties, but neither would she abandon her favorites if...and I emphasize if, she felt she had time to move them. I truly believe that her character's behavior would be to first compel Rand's messenger and then realize it was time to move on adn commence preparation to do so. I don't think she expected the close to immediate attack.

I actually think the most effective point Freelancer made was that, based on our exposure and knowledge of strong Compulsion, if the weave had been removed or unmade, Ramshalan would have been at best a gibbering fool. The fact that he was back to sign of Compulsion weave or the effects of having it removed...proves the weave never occurred due to balefiring. Thus if Graendal is not dead...someone that Compels like her is.
Matthew Smith
558. blocksmith
Freelancer@550 adn Toryx@551

Sorry posted at 557 and did not refresh before to see new posts.
Tricia Irish
559. Tektonica

I tried to introduce the question of how Rand might get rid of his TP "taint" and various questions about that in #547. That was really just an attempt to change the subject.

I'm open for any new topic!
Bonnie Andrews
560. misfortuona
I'm not that imaginative I guess, because the only thing I've got is death.

Thomas Keith
561. insectoid
Arrrgghh... I thought the Graendal debate was over! Have pity on poor Bela!

Or, to follow my comment @540 to its logical conclusion:
We're off to see the Wizard
The wonderful Wizard of Oz
We hear he is a wiz of a wiz
If ever a wiz there was...
::foolish grin::

Michael Maxwell
562. pike747
@ 497 ShaggyBella

So...What would be your personal or House sigil? Computer mouse? Motorcycle? Frying pan? Ale mug? Dancing Bear? Peace sign???
For me, maybe a Book with Wings...Dragon Wings. My House would probably be a microscope with wrench or muscle car. (Lab Tech married to Car Guy)
I wish I was more of an artist.

I have practically zero artistic ability and don't ask me to say why I decided to try, maybe you are ta'veren. I do love Bella though :-, What do you think? A Google search for images and Photoshop makes up a little for the lack of artistic ability. I did not seek out antique microscopes, just stumbled on them and then I did search for vintage wrenches because the microscope just seemed to fit WOT.

I haven't decided what mine will be yet, it would involve a wolf or wolves but that is, obviously, already taken.
Charlotte Giurgiu
563. almdoipad
Ethnicity: good chunk Irish, with some Swedish tossed in for good measure. A hint of English to bland down the inherent Jamesonness.
564. Gentleman Farmer
New topic? Well, I think this entire thread may have started with a proposal for a Taimandred discussion, so I have a related thought on how to tell if Forsaken folks are around.

I had liked the concept that a Forsaken city could be recognized by the effect the Forsaken was having on the people of the city. Moiraine indicates this happens when a channeler strong in spirit fails to shield their dreams.

So Illian had very angry people due to Sammael, Tear was dispirited due to Be'lal (which I sort of took to be that Sammael turned to the Shadow due to his anger that Lews Therin was the big general, whereas Be'lal turned because he lost hope in his cause... I don't own or refer to the Encyclopedia, so my basis is solely uninformed assumptions from the text).

Tanchico had the cracks from within visible in Tel'aran'rhiod caused by Moghedien (presumably based on how the Spider infiltrates places), and Tar Valon was a rotting, rat infested dump, presumably because of Mesaana's personal hygiene.

Arad Doman had everyone on every side, trying to pull down everyone else, not dissimilar to Sammael's opinion of how Graendal likes to pull down anyone of power.

I can't really point to too much in regards to Rahvin in Caemlyn or Semirhage in Seanchan. Maybe the Seanchan were being even more callously cruel than usual, or maybe both shielded their dreams or weren't strong in spirit. (As evidenced by both attacking Rand with fire, neither trying to shield him).

For Halima/Balthamel, my idea is that she infected the Salidar AS with stupidity, since Halima seems more than a little dim and kind of useless, but perhaps that's unfair to the Salidar AS.

Dashiva was crazy and maybe affected Morr, but seemed to mostly be a loner not interesting in affecting anybody. (I don't really have much argument for him).

Lanfear and Ishy travel around too much to have had much effect on anyone, and as heavy T'A'R users, both probably shield their dreams.

Which leaves Demandred. If my (overly speculative and in some cases silly) assumptions that the effect a Forsaken has on a city is related to their personality, I thought a further argument could be made for Taim.

Demandred envied Lews Therin, and thought him a fool too often helped by luck. Rand's first interaction with students of the Black Tower (Torval?) was with a student who thought "you don't look so much better than me" before being struck down by Taim. That appeared to be the thoughts of most of the four who participated in the attack on Rand that of "what makes you so special". That was also my interpretation of the response of those at the Black Tower palace on the arrival of Pevara, and Logain's interpretation of favours for Taim's favourites, and the hoarding of special weaves.

There's a culture of mistrust, envy and whining "why not me?", which seems like a Demandred sort of attitude. I add to that the lack of humour and smiling, not only of Taim, but of many of the Asha'man. Part of it is probably the nature of the training and their task, but grim determination combined with envy might be just the sort of combination Demandred would give off.

As a side note (and perhaps bonus for those who bothered reading so far), this is also my theory of the creation of Mashadar. I think either Mordeth himself, or a key person in Aridhol (Balwer Ironhand?) could probably channel saidin and was strong in spirit. The suspicion then spread to every man, woman and child just as it would if a suspcious Forsaken were present. That, combined with probably some sort of ward to block out or seek out darkfriends got corrupted by the taint and became Mashadar... hence the very nice tie in to Machin Shin, another creation of saidin used to block Shadowspawn from entering the Ways, and corrupted by the taint. Since both had similar functions, both corrupted by the Taint, Fain/Mordeth can now control both.
Rob Munnelly
565. RobMRobM
Interesting tidbits from rereading WH.

- Cyndane, during cleansing, comments that Alivia is incredibly strong, even more than she was before she was "held by" the Finns. Not killed by the Finns. Implication is clear that she is/was Lanfear and suffered a step down in power as part of a deal with the Finns. Query the nature of the deal. Discuss.

- In Far Madding, Kisman says that he met with Taim, then Demandred, and then Moridin. He doesn't wig out but discusses the discussions in a matter of fact tone. He actually met and talked with Demandred, who none but Foresaken have spoken with on screen in the entire series????? Wonder how that came about. Does that assume both Dem and Mori have spent enough time at Black Tower to get to know these guys?

- Love the quirky theory at 13thD that Taim is actually Moridin. If you take Asha'man and combine it with M'Hael, you get Asha'M'Hael - or Ishmael. Hmmmmm.

Tricia Irish
566. Tektonica
OK...RobM...I am trying to find that article on Taim as Moridan....can you link us in?
Sam Mickel
567. Samadai
Here is something we could all do for a discussion.

Go and reread Dragonmount, the prologue of the EoTW. Then re-read Veins of Gold from The Gathering Storm, and the last page of the book with the bit of prophecy on it.
Then we can discuss the Power of those two scenes as If they are one scene, thousands of years apart.

well, what do you think?
Alice Arneson
568. Wetlandernw
Samadai - I like the idea. Time to do some real scene-linking, and if we can mostly manage to read the chapters back-to-back so everything is fresh, it could make for some good discussion. Hopefully I'll have a chance to do the reading tonight!
569. Freelancer

No doubt Cyndane is Lanfear. But there has been a theory floated (and not badly supported) that the power with which Cyndane channels is her true natural power, that Lanfear had previously made a deal with the 'Finn for "enhancements", and upon being returned to their realm had those enhancements revoked. One form of this theory includes her appearance, supposing that her "wishes" were to be the most beautiful woman in the history of the world, and the most powerful channeler of saidar.
Bonnie Andrews
570. misfortuona
Survey results time. I did not include spouses, or children, in the survey though I appreciated the extra info. If I missed someone’s comment and did not include you in the survey I apologize.

We are quite the mixed bag with most of the 25 respondents claiming 3 or more ancestral links. Thepupxpert proved to be the true mutt of the bunch with 7 nationalities. ;) Five people claimed only one ethnic line.

Of 25 people, 14 claim some Irish ancestry, 12 German, 11 English, 9 Scottish, 6 French, 4 Penn Dutch, 3 native American, 3 Indian , 2 each for Welsh, Spanish, and Italian. There was one inclusion of each of Kiwi, Slovakian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Cornish, Romanian, Russian, Mexican, and Swedish.

As for my original observation that there seems to be a fair number of Celts about, that has been borne out by the survey. Though not surprising considering the history of emigration from those lands.

So what have we learned? I leave it to you to discuss the results.

Mis-statistician out
Ron Garrison
571. Man-0-Manetheran
Just sticking my (big) nose in to say, I'm still alive....

Linda @ 542:
Welcome! Love reading your very thoughtful essays on 13D! Hope you pop in more often.

Gentleman Farmer @ 564:
Yes, everything points to Taim being Demandred...except...RJ said he was not Demandred. Doesn't mean he is not a resident of the BT, tho'.
572. Freelancer
Taim may not be Demandred but...

Finkle is Einhorn!
572. Freelancer
Comment #572-2

So one day posts disappear, now they multiply? ::shrug::
Sam Mickel
573. Samadai
did you take a plunger to your face?
Thomas Keith
574. insectoid
Mis-statistician @570: Umm... learn? Oh. Yes. There should be more Celtic music in the bunker? :) ::goes looking for Enya CDs::

Free @572 & 572: LOL... Two 572's for the price of one!

Linda Taglieri
575. Linda
@543 Helen

Morgase's mother Maighdin died of a fever.

Elaida said she didn't attach herself to Morgase until it was obvious Morgase was going to win, so I doubt Elaida was hanging around the Trakands when Maighdin was alive.

We don't know at all what the parents of the four very young High Seats died of. It's not unusual for High Seats to come to their titles young - Dyelin said her father was killed in a skirmish and her brothers were killed fighting too. At least, none of the other Andoran nobles remark on it.

The WOT cities, especially the rough areas of the ones on the coast, should have more infectious disease than they do. The Wise Women of Ebou Dar are crucial for the health of the Rahad. I would have thought that fevers would hit a few of the tenements before they are stamped out by Healing.

@571 MoM: Thanks!
Rob Munnelly
576. RobMRobM
Tek at 566 - not in a 13D article. Floated in a comment to the Names of the Shadow article posted a few days ago.

Free - I'm aware of, and tentatively believe in, the Lanfear/Finn giveth then taketh away theory. I found the "held by the Finns" reference in WH to be supportive of the theory. Very curious about the terms of said deal - give up your superpowered ter'angreals re looks and power and we'll let you go back to Randland? Ditto and we'll agree to kill you so that the DO can reincarnate your spirit in a new body? And re Moiraine, does this suggest she is still being "held" by the Finns, awaiting Mat to propose a deal to save her?

Mis-Thanks for the survey and results.

Sam - I don't have my copies of either book so I'm beat.
Birgit F
577. birgit
Morgase's mother Maighdin died of a fever.

Morgase's mother was Mordrellen. Maighdin is Morgase's alias when she is with Perrin.
Antoni Ivanov
578. tonka
Hm No, birgit. You got it wrong. Mordrellen is the mother of Tigraine and the grandmother of Rand and Galad.And of course the queen before Morgase. THANK GOD she is not mother to Morgase (and so grandmother of Elayne) because what Rand and Elayne did in Winter Heart book would have been gross.
Maighdin is an Andoran noblewoman and head of House Trakand. Mother of Morgase. She died of fever or so wot encyclopaedia says

Yeah I know they should have put it in a big family tree at the back of the books but alas they didn't
Rob Munnelly
579. RobMRobM
Stop the presses. One of our gurus (European edition) made a factual error. I'm speechless.
Tricia Irish
580. Tektonica

Thanks for that. Several of us thought it had been balefired at 13th D. I'll go back and look some more.....Names of the Shadow...OK.....

Mis: Thanks for the survey results. I love our diversity! Bunch o' Mutts, like myself. Lots of spice! So nice to have so many World viewpoints. Instead of Enya in the Bunker, I propose Flogging party music, or that group Sub linked us to awhile back.

I know the books don't have time to waste talking about sickness and food and other RL concerns, but it is kind of odd to me that all of those problems are not discussed at all. No one even gets a cold. I suppose it would be boring reading! " Whine whine whine, I don't feel good...."
Rob Munnelly
581. RobMRobM
Tek - we talk RL to some extent - oftentimes, references to work, sometimes re kids, sometimes health issues, etc. Had a good IEP meeting about schooling next year for my son, who has complex issues. And my wife bought my 10 year old daughter her first real bra, and was flabbergasted to find that our pre-teen daughter has a bigger cup size already that she did at the time we were married. LOL (gulp).
Tricia Irish
582. Tektonica

LOL. Not boring.....universal. Thanks for sharing!
Marcus W
583. toryx
Gentleman Farmer @ 564:

I really like your analysis of how the Forsaken are affecting the places they've infested. I'd never thought of it before, but you've made excellent points.

I think Rahvin's effect on Caemlyn was to bring forth the greed and hunger for power in the general region. We only see it in terms of the bootlickers who came in from the country to feed at his heels but I still think it may have been broader than just that.

I'm not sure that Halima really had any secondary impact on the people in Salidar. Maybe they were protected because in general they're channelers? Otherwise, I'd have expected everyone to be stricken with raising levels of uncontrollable lust.

I suspect it's really about who wanted to be circumspect and who didn't really care to hide that much. Halima has more reason to hide herself than most of the others, so I'd expect her to be more careful about letting her emotions leak out.

As far as Taim goes, after I finally accepted that Taim was NOT Demandred, I came to the conclusion that what RJ was trying to show was that LTT was reacting to Taim's envy and associating it with Demandred. They may be different people but they're influenced by the same thing and they react to it in almost exactly the same way. That envy, the desire to be the best, must have been so obvious in Taim that LTT couldn't help but react to it.

And Rand, foolishly distrusting everything that LTT felt/ thought, went and ignored all the warnings that came from that awareness.

I'm not so sure that Mordeth could channel. If he had, I'd expect Fain to start channelling too, and he certainly doesn't.
Barry T
586. blindillusion
Linda, should you happen to be hanging out today...would you be able to tell me what happened to the Article that was once behind this link:
Trusted Smiler With Knife.

I posted this link at 106 on this Thread. Really enjoyed the Article...and now it seems to be gone.

(TOR ate this comment a few times. Hopefully this one posts.)
Matthew Smith
587. blocksmith
Gentleman Farmer@564

I liked your ideas and generally think you are on to something, but two items of concern...

1. Moghedien considers herself (and Birgitte backs this up) as the unrecognized master of T'A'R. IMO, she has the expertise to adequately shield/ward her dreams and prevent the Spirit leaking effect from occuring.

2. Machin Shin (or is it Sin, can't recall) is suspected as being a by-product of the Ways that were created after Saidin was tainted. To date, it has been an indiscriminate (trying with humans and and successful with shadowspawn) devourer. Also, I'm pretty sure that the explanation of Mashadar was that it was a creation of the uniform evil that Aridhol became and did not have anything to do with the taint.


Your comments made me think of something (not sure if this has been brought up but...)regarding Lanfear being able to enter the doorway ter'angreal. In order for her to do so (because this one led to the same set of Finns that give things for a price not answer questions) she could only have visited the Giving Finns via some other route. What I mean is, the AS have known for a long time that the doorway ter'angreal in Tear leads to the Finns that give answers. Presumably, in the AOL, the AS knew that the other doorway (spirited to Rhuidean for safekeeping) led to the Finns that give things for a price. If this was around at the during the AOL and the subsequent Breaking, Lanfear/Mierin would have known about it and likely accessed the Finns through it to get her "enhancements". Therefore, I do not believe that she could have been pushed through by Moiraine. She would simply have come out the other side (see Mat in the Stone) while Moiraine would have disappeared. So, no, don't think Lanfear got enhancements, but ICBW.


I have a cold...want to hear about it? It's suitably miserable. Sore throat, congestion, headache/mild fever. Tough sleeping.
Tess Laird
588. thewindrose
toryx - I have always wondered about how Rand deals with Taim as well. He has all these memories of why his most important generals defected - and here is Taim showing the same behaviors. I guess this one can be chocked up to being a wool-headed sheepherder?;)

misfortuona - thanks for taking the time to compile and report. For sure, we will have to have a party in the bunker on the 17th of March:)

And, people do get sick in Randland. Remember poor Thom in Tear. So he was sick and it led to Mother Guenna. Does this make Thom a victim? If so, of the Pattern or of a ta'veren?

With food become so scarce and battles happening everywhere, disease is sure to follow. Or - Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death.

Rob Munnelly
589. RobMRobM
Block - but she did go through the doorway. Good point as to whether that should have occurred based on what we know about the giving Finns.
Rob Munnelly
590. RobMRobM
For entertaining reading - head over to The site has a 32 person brackets game pitting powerful figures in SF/F against each other in head to head matches, with winners selected by on line votes going to next round. Our own Rand Al'Thor is a 5 seed in the tournament. Some of the matches are silly - for example, they paired Jaime Lassiter (15 seed) in the state he is in in the latter part of Song of Ice and Fire (no spoilers, please) against Hermione Granger (18 seed). The website predicts that Hermione should win but voters are solidly going for Jaime. They also paired Lyra from His Dark Materials (31 seed) against Chtulu (2 seed), etc. Very clever and funny but there are both curious inclusions (Arthur Dent from Hitchhiker's Guide??? Hermione when Dumbledore is also in the tournament) and omissions (too numerous to mention, but Corwin of Amber and Fitz from Farseer are only two of those omitted).

Chin Bawambi
591. bawambi
I like the reasoning on Lanfear but how about this - remember that the price that Mat paid was only because he wasn't aware he needed a gift - I think Moiraine was wrong in saying you couldn't go twice - what if it is need based like t'a'r. Also what if Lanfear asked questions to find out about the Bore and that is why questions pretaining to the Shadow can't be asked?
Marcus W
592. toryx
thewindrose @ 588:

Yeah, Rand was pretty selective about when he'd give any thought or credit to those memories. He was every bit as stubborn as most of us (myself definitely included) in these discussions. :)

bawambi @ 591:

I think you're referring to someone else. I don't buy into the crazy theory about Lanfear getting her power and beauty from a bunch of Finn-traded items at all. I said as much in the original thread on it back in the Big Spoiler Thread of Doom part deux.
Bonnie Andrews
593. misfortuona
Re Lanfear
I do think Lanfear was enhanced, but I don't know those enhancements had to have come from the Finns. There were all sorts of ter'angreal about during the AOL after all. I still think that she traded what she had for a way out of Finnland, only they sent her out dead (Like Mat) and the DO collected her up.

Mis-and her pet Looney Theory.

Also re survey. Gave it some thought, and It isn't surprising that the countries who gave us leprechauns and the Grimm Brothers top our list of homelands. :)
Maiane Bakroeva
594. Isilel
Blocksmith @587:

Lanfear/Mierin would have known about it and likely accessed the Finns through it to get her "enhancements". Therefore, I do not believe that she could have been pushed through by Moiraine.

Personally, I think that's why Moiraine had to go through as well and had to be in close physical contact with Lanfear while she did so. Shoving Lanfear through and destroying the doorframe wouldn't have worked, precisely because Lanfear had already been through. IMHO, of course. And the ter'angreal melting was because of a conflict in it's programming - it should and shouldn't have let folks through at the same time and like one of those Stark Trek computers hit an unsurmountable logical conflict and self-anihilated as a result ;).
595. nor3
Re Lanfear : I don't buy the theory that Lanfear bargained her way out of Finnland, for two reasons. First, why couldn't Moiraine have done the same thing and bargained her way out too? And second, how did she get back in (the second point assumes that her bargain was to give up the gifts she got on a previous trip)?

The theory seems mostly to be based on the use of the word ''held by'' as opposed to ''killed'', but just cause the Finns didn't kill her doesn't mean she didn't die. I think maybe Lanfear tryed to escape using saidar (like when Nynaeve (or was it Egwene?) created a doorway to take her out of the Accepted testing machine using saidar), but it didn't work (space is warped there, and so the weave you think you're making isn't the one you're actually making) and she was killed in the process and snatched up by the DO. Hence, "held by" the Finns, and still killed. This also explains why Moiraine is still there - she saw the disasterous effects of an escape attempt, but knew that rescue would come eventually, so decided to wait it out. I think that's more plausible than her somehow bargaining her way out. There are other possible explanations, such as Lanfear commiting suicide and trusting to the DO to save her, but I think an escape attempt is the most likely.

As for her maybe being there before, I don't see how the doorway could have let her in a second time. Someone made a good point about that maybe it was cause she was in close contact with Moiraine, and the doorway was confused about who to let through, so it let them both in and then melted. But I dunno... It seems to me that the door could easily have been selective, and I always assumed that the melting was due to channelling - Moiraine deliberately takes hold of saidar before she goes in, even though her attack on Lanfear was purely physical. Given that she knew about the event before hand, it seems likely that she would have used a weave she knew would melt the door, or prehaps simply channeling at all messes with the door. However, I concede that without a detailed knowledge of how the doorway works (which even the AS don't have), the arguements in this paragraph are very open to attack.

re : survey : Thanks Mis! Really apprectiate the effort. I guess the original assertion was right - pretty much everyone is (or claims to be) Irish. :) Appropriate for Paddy's Day, no? Oh, and I am totally in favour of Flogging Molly instead of Enya.

And now I have Flogging Molly stuck in my head.... *swing a little more, on the Devil's dance floor...*

Re: Halima : The AS all ward their dreams, as a matter of course, so that they dont end up affecting everyone around them. It makes sense that these wards would shield them all from Halima, just as if Halima had chosen to shield her own dreams (which she might have done anyway, we don't know). The other people (soldiers, novices, washerwomen, etc.) would still be affected, but at least 300 people in the camp (the 300 we saw most of, too) were immune to her presnce.

@RobM : Thanks for the suvudu link, cous.

And... There was something else I meant to mention... Can't remember what it was.... Ah well, this post is longer than I ever meant it to be anyway (I sat down thinking "maybe just a really quick comment...").
Matthew Smith
596. blocksmith
My impression as to the cause of the doorway melting/smoldering was due to both channeling and Lanfear herself.

We learn from Moiraine in the Stone that questions related to the DO often have negative results for the questioner. An actual channeling Forsaken combined with a channeling AS falling through at the same time equals too much strain.


The once through the doorway is based on Mat not being able to return after he was dissatisfied with this answers and was bodily tossed out of Finnland (in TSR) and then told by Moiraine you could only go in once.
Tina Pierce
597. scissorrunner
Blocksmith - feel better :)
nor3 @ 595
oooh - I like your thinking! Lanfear is too (greedy, self centered, vain - pick one) not to try & escape & Moiraine is too clever to get caught in the same kind of trap.
Sam Mickel
598. Samadai
Reading Veins of Gold in the GS has led me to thinking about the similarity and differences of that scene and the prologue Dragonmount from the EoTW.
Lews Therin in his grief, pulls in all the power he can, trying to pull it all in, and kills himself. In doing so he creates Dragonmount. In his belief that there can be no forgiveness for what he has done, he falls to despair.
Rand in his grief, pulls in all the power that he can, trying to pull more and more, not just to kill himself but to end everything. Not because of what he did, but because he doesn't have the faith that he can fix it, or that it can get better. Two different reactions to grief, guilt over deaths and mistakes made, and despair that any decision made is no good. LT never pulls through his grief and the power of that despair leaks over into his next life. Rand having to deal with the emotional setbacks of his own life, also has a grief that is not his own weighing on his mind. "His mind" is Rand, his "soul" is the Dragon of all ages. When the previous "mind" of his soul "inhabits" him, the guilt that is not his to bear eats away his caring, "the core of a soul."
Rand, finally understanding that grief passes and hope exists, leads to the destruction of, not life, but the possibility of ending all life.
I have more to say about theses two chapters but will do it on another post.
Steven Pattingale
599. Pattingale
@598 Samadai

Interesting to contrast the two, indeed, and I'm sure that it wasn't lost on RJ/BS either. Without much doubt it was the turning point in the story for Rand, and to paraphrase Tek from earlier in this thread it'll interesting to see how Rand turns things around from here. There are still huge problems to overcome with the TP addiction, uniting the land, oh...yeah and that little one they call the Last Battle.

Would Rand have faired any better if he'd actually gone all the way and become a Kinslayer himself? I guess that's the difference I see. Lews Therin had the grief and the guilt whereas Rand feels guilty for *almost* wasting Tam & Min and it doesn't weigh as heavily as actually doing the deed.

Samadai you mention LT's belief that there can be no forgiveness for what he had done. I ask how could anyone ever forgive themselves in his place?
Bonnie Andrews
600. misfortuona
Hmmm,thought provoking, only I seem incapable of anything worthy of sharing today. Maybe after I actually complete my homework :)

The band Sub posted was 'Great Big Sea', I'll bring a CD.

Mis-twitching and it's only Thursday.


Edit Accidental 600 Yeah!
Sam Mickel
601. Samadai
While he considers it true That what he did is unforgivable. It is my belief that what is caused by madness is not a reason for grief. He was out of his mind(and if Ishamael wasn't lying to Rand) he was told to do it by Ishamael. It wasn't him killing his family, He was twisted and deceived into it, with no knowledge of it, until his insanity was healed. Maybe there is no out for grief like that, but blame can be forgiven, leading to a lessening of grief over time
Alice Arneson
602. Wetlandernw
RobM @581 - Good IEP meeting - Yay!! (That reminds me... time to review and update...) As for the rest... LOL!! Ain't RL fun?

Re: whether Lanfear should have been able to go through the doorway if she'd visited the Eelfinn before (AOL). If we assume for the sake of argument that she had done so... 1) We don't know that she went through the ter'angreal doorway to get there. 2) We don't know whether the doorway can only identify & stop people who came through it before, or anyone who has been to that world before by any method. 3) We don't know if it's done by the doorway, or somehow by the Eelfinn or something else in their world. 4) We don't know whether there is a time limit on getting back in. Three thousand years is a long time, and whatever mechanism determines your ability to get back in might have "forgotten" Lanfear by now.

There are a zillion-and-one possibilites. As Isilel said, it's possible Lanfear got back in because Moiraine was holding on tight, and the feedback loop melted the machine. Or maybe the doorway only recognizes those who came that way before, and Lanfear had used the TofG on her first trip. Or maybe in the AOL, there were several other ways to get there.

FWIW, I just went back and read the Encyclopaedia WoT, the WoTFAQ and the theoryland collection of quotations from BWS & RJ regarding the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. Talk about a collection of RAFOs!! I'm not sure there's any other single topic with a higher percentage of RAFO answers. While frustrating in that it really doesn't give us much to work with, it's also very exciting in that RJ clearly intended to give us much more concerning them. There were a fair number of questions to which his RAFO answers strongly indicated that the answer would give away too much about a future event. So... I'm pretty sure we'll learn a LOT when we see Moiraine again.
Steven Pattingale
603. Pattingale
What? There wasn't Great Big Sea in the bunker already? *faints dead away*
Helen Peters
604. Helen
New topic?

Sort of.

When Moiraine and Lanfear went through the doorway, did they go to the same place? Would Mo have been able to see Lanfear make a pig's ear out of getting out and then save herself the bother/pain? Back in the Stone everyone and their dog seemed to be the other side of the doorway, but none of them saw anyone else inside. Even when the warning bell rang and they were hustled out they didn't meet until back on home ground.

Personally I don't think Mo would try to escape even if Lanfear had been successful. She 'knows' Thom's coming to get her, so long as he follows the instructions in the letter. And she'd probably had chats with Min and knew about her viewing, remember Min knew her before we met any of them.

Discuss away. I'm off to wait for an Etsy treasury.
605. Doorman
@ Insectiod 540

I like the wizz. I have the original sound track from the movie (Record). I love the movie and have; well
lets just say a shit load of stuff.

But I have to admit: I like the wicked witch is dead. I think it won the acad. award, for best song. Im just saying.
606. Gentleman Farmer
New Topic?

How about most disturbingly scary character? I think Leigh identified Aram as a near perfect sociopath, but I've never been particularly troubled by him.

Any other sociopathic types people find disturbing?

Therava? Cadsuane? Verin? Galina? Mr. Gholam? Aginor? The Prophet?

The single most disturbingly scary character for me is probably Perrin. I like the character a lot, I think I enjoy his plotlines more than many here, but as a guy who would hesitate least to do whatever he felt served his ends, I think I'd be more afraid of him than of Ishamael or Dark Rand.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the most psychologically disturbing folks seem to end up in his storylines (Therava, Galina, Prophet, Prophet's followers, Aram, AS and WOs who want to put down the Prophet, Tallanvor), nor that Perrin seems to scare most of them.
Alice Arneson
607. Wetlandernw
Gentleman Farmer... I've never thought of Perrin as particularly scary, although he's definitely changed over the course of the books. I wonder if the others find him frightening because, without his POV, they see someone who looks a lot like a huge rock rolling down the hill toward them. We know that his decisions are generally made after lots of careful consideration, and that he avoids impulsive choices because he's a careful person by personality and practice. (He reminds me of Durnik from the Belgariad.) What they see is someone who doesn't give much indication of what he's thinking, but when he starts moving he's virtually unstoppable. You may be right about the twisted folks being the ones who find him scary; they can recognize the ruthlessness but can't comprehend his motivations. Yeah, I can see that being a bit intimidating.
Matthew Smith
608. blocksmith
Gentleman Farmer@606

Most disturbing scary DF: Padan Fain/Mordeth

Most disturbing scary nonDF: Eamon Valda (I disliked this character intensely from the first scene and outright cheered when Galad ran him through).

Most Fanatical/Obsessive scary: Three way tie: Aram, Asunawa, Masema.

Most Overall Scary: Lanfear. Something about all that power in someone that's evil, devious/knowledgable, infatuated, and manipulative. I always saw a little Fatal Attraction in her.
Bonnie Andrews
609. misfortuona
Gentleman Farmer

I don't find any of the bad guys disturbing. Yes there are some nasty characters, but at least we know what they're all about.

I have to agree with you, Perrin has always been my choice for the main character most likely to turn dark.

The really scary thing is that he is such a good guy. Kind, gentle,trustworthy all the things that you should admire in a hero, but absolutly I get the feeling that given a situation where he had to choose between Faile and the rest of the world he's going to either choose her outright or hesitate long enough that it'll be too late.

I hope that the recent growth we have seen in his character means that he will prove me wrong.

Mis-trusting Perrin
Linda Taglieri
610. Linda
@578 Tonka: We have a nice Trakand-Mantear-Damodred
family tree on the blog.

@586 blind: Somehow the theory got itself put back in draft form. I re-published it.

@596 blocksmith: RJ said that the doorway burned in part because both Moiraine and Lanfear were channelling when they went through and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws. It leaves open the question of whether Lanfear had been through the doorway previously and her channelling (and Moiraine's) enabled her to go through a second time but the doorway self-destructed due to the agreement being violated. If the latter theory is also correct it may explain why Lanfear got nasty treatment - held and then killed - when Moiraine wasn't killed as far as we know.
Tricia Irish
612. Tektonica
Gentleman Farmer@564:

I really enjoyed your thoughtful treatise on the FS affecting the cities and countries according to their own particular evilness. Very interesting. Thanks.


Feel Better: NyQuil. Thanks for sharing.

RobM@590: Thanks for the suvudu link. No Fitz! I'm not going in protest. He's one tough dude. Could win on morality alone.

Toryx@592 & Mis@593 & Block@596:

I think we are in a similar camp....I didn't buy Lanfear getting her "enhancements" from the Finn when it was mentioned on the Thread of Doom either. Did someone just posit that? Was there a reference to it somewhere? I don't remember it, but then, my memory is definitely not what it used to be.

I assumed that the doorframe melted because two very powerful channelers went through, guns blazing, as it were. Plus, you're not supposed to even ASK about the DO in Finnland and one of these ladies was a Forsaken, for heaven's sake. She might have been offed on the spot! Whatever happened in there, I think Lanfear died, going in, or trying to escape, or because she was a FS, or she didn't bargain correctly and they sent her out dead, then the DO retrieved her and put her into poor Cyndane's body. Moraine is waiting patiently for Dear Thom to come retrieve her and hopefully learning much to help Rand in TG.


Very thoughtful! Must read these two together myself....a very good idea.
I think part of Rand's revelation on Dragonmount at the end of tGS was that yes, he is the "soul" of LTT and he can redeem himself, there is hope for all, and he is it. Very similar to Christ in the Bible in the Garden of Gethsemene, facing his moment of agony.

Linda @610: Thank you! And Blind...thanks for persuing it!

Sorry about the Wall-O-Text was a long day away and you were very busy today! Nice.
613. Freelancer

Once we'd met Cyndane, I posted a theory on WoTMania RE: Moiraine's captivity in Finnland, as follows:

Moiraine knows much more about her future than most people, and there's no way to tell how. Some things about her future life she knew before she went into the Rhuidean rings, or even before she entered the 'Finn doorway in Tear. This leaves her Accepted Test, older Min viewings (remember they were acquainted well before Winternight) or some other unknown encounter with an oracular source. Maybe she knows that her only way out of the Tower is to refuse to make a deal herself, and wait for rescuers who will either make a deal including her, or defeat the 'Finn and demand her release.

Knowing what is known now, this is still a plausible idea. If I had to outwit someone who knew more than they should, who better than the world's most renowned traveller/adventurer, a most deft player of Daes Dae'mar, and a Ta'veren with more tactical knowledge than any hundred men, who is also the luckiest man alive?

Moiraine is wise, and if need be, patient. So she ignores the foxes, and waits.

PS: I see that Helen@604 has a bit of the same on this topic.


Picking a nit here, Thom gets a horrible cold in Tear, which of course leads he and Mat to Mother Guenna's place. On the road to Caemlyn, both Mat and Rand suffer bouts of being unwell, depending on the other to get them along. Granted, there were supernatural causes in both cases. Egwene had breakbone fever when she was young. When Perrin and Tylee were going after forkroot, there was that Seanchan clerk who couldn't stop coughing, and we know he had a bug.

As a counterpoint, in which world-class epic fantasy story do such mundane events as normal sicknesses play a noticable role? As with most such tales, most of the "common" events of life are subsmerged into the background and not presented as noteworthy. Jordan brings more of these into the foreground than a vast majority of authors, adding a dimension of realism that we readers take for granted, to the extent that we begin to wonder why it isn't more realistic. Do we really want those added details? I think that their "absence" allows for such precious lines as "To the necessary, Toy, if you really must know".
Tricia Irish
614. Tektonica

A good nit picked. You're absolutely right....we wouldn't want too much of RL in the stories or it would be as mundane as, well, RL. Which was kind of my point, though not well made, obviously, as several have been taking the mickey out of me since. Very humorously, I might add. It should be as light and deft as RJ does it.
Sam Mickel
615. Samadai

"The Seanchan clerk who couldn't stop coughing. We know he had a bug"

Alice Arneson
616. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @ 613 ...we know he had a bug. LOL!

Good point, though; very little fiction makes mention of common illness unless it's significant to the plot, and generally we don't miss it. It's not really a big stretch to assume they eat their meals, use the facilities, blow their noses, and all the rest without being told about it every time.

And my, aren't we full of puns today? :>
Ron Garrison
617. Man-0-Manetheran
Wet: "It's not really a big stretch to assume they eat their meals, use the facilities, blow their noses, and all the rest without being told about it every time."

Where's Sam when we need him? Now that would make some hilarious fan fiction! "Trollocs! Oh, not now! I have to go to the bathroom!"
Sam Mickel
618. Samadai
What! Now you want me to make potty jokes? I take my writing serious and in no way would I stoop to that level of........ok perhaps I would.
619. Freelancer
Everyone spots the "bug", but no comment about Tuon's answer to Mat being precious? I thought that was the more clever of the two.

Edit. TOR scrambled my comment, at least appeared to, but when I opened it in edit, the bbCode is in the right place. How weird.
620. nor3
Most disturbing character = Semirhaige. Hands down, no contest. I mean, she will torture you JUST TO SEE HOW MUCH PAIN YOU'RE IN. I believe the appropriate word is 'yeesh'. And when she comes on screen in tGS, she is so cold and detached that you really do believe that she will inflict as much pain on you as possible, not to get information, not to get some advantage, not even because it gives her pleasure. She does it purely out of mild curiosity.... Yeuch... Makes my skin crawl.
Alice Arneson
621. Wetlandernw
Freelancer - yup. Hence my comment on puns... :)
Thomas Keith
622. insectoid
The "Bug" is lurking today.

EDIT: 400th comment! Weee! ;)

623. Freelancer
Careful, insectoid, that was terminal for the Seanchan clerk...
Barry T
624. blindillusion
Hmm. Most Disturbing Character? While I agree completely with those above, and think they go above the one I will mention on any list, I do believe the one I will mention is a fairly nasty addition to said list:

Rahvin. What he did to Morgase was completely evil...and completely disturbing.

~ Linda. Thank you very much for taking the time to track down the problem and fix it. It's great that the people who make the Awesomely Awesome sites come here as well. =)
Alice Arneson
625. Wetlandernw
blindillusion...."here as well"??? Are you saying we're not Awesomely Awesome?

Thomas Keith
626. insectoid
Free @623: C'mon, I was only funnin' ;)

Sandy Brewer
627. ShaggyBella
KOD - In the Garden, Aran'gar's POV:
Mesaana appeared wan and subdued, for some reason, almost as if she had taken ill. Well that was possible. This Age had a number of nasty diseases, and it seemed unlikely even she would trust Semirhage for Healing.

Disturbing Character.. I hated Ba'alzamon when he was messing with dreams and breaking rats backs, trying to get the boys to turn to the Dark Side, etc.--edited for the right FS name...Thanks!

What about Mysterious characters? There is more to them then meet the eye...What are their agendas?
Laris, Sebban Balwer, Selucia, Noal Charin, Alivia.

Oh, and does anyone besides me think Balwer should be related to Halwin Norry? or are they the same character?
Barry T
628. blindillusion
Wetlander, but of course you're Awesomely Awesome. =)
Barry T
629. blindillusion
ShaggyBella ~ Ba'alzamon was the Breaker of Rat's Backs and Attempter of Temptation.

And Balwer and Norry...cut from the same mold:
Janet Hopkins
630. JanDSedai
What can I say?! That picture truly is worth a thousand words!
631. nor3
@blind 624 : I never really thought Ravin was that bad, mostly because Morgase was never really aware of what was happening to her, until she broke free. Same goes for Graendal - none of her pets are aware of their plight.
Tricia Irish
632. Tektonica
Blind@629: Nice tie! Where can my husband get one of those?? LOL.


I never really thought Ravin was that bad, mostly because Morgase was never really aware of what was happening to her, until she broke free. Same goes for Graendal - none of her pets are aware of their plight.

Yeah, at least they weren't aware that their minds had been taken over!!
And in Graendal's case, were never coming back! Yikes! I find that just about the most horrifying thing of all. Ignorance is Bliss?? NOT!
633. Gentleman Farmer
@583 toryx

I like your thoughts on Rahvin. Helps justify (for me) the unnecessary war for the throne of Andor.

@607 Wetlanderw

I hadn't thought about Durnik for a long time (until that suduvu site anyway), but that's a neat thought. Maybe it's a blacksmith personality.

@608 Blocksmith

I had forgotten or blocked Valda from my mind. I agree, he's a pretty disturbing guy, not least because he doesn't seem to see anything wrong with any of his actions, in fact doesn't even really consider them. He seems to be a pure man of action, not only without thought, but without conscience.

I wasn't entirely sure though, if it was clear that he had allied the Whitecloaks to the Seanchan. That seemed to be the implication, but I wasn't sure I could see his character doing that and Asunawa supporting it. I understand he's the ultimate in practicality, but given that he'd already abandoned Amador I wonder if he just didn't know where else to go.
Tina Pierce
634. scissorrunner
to Nor3@631:
I never really thought Ravin was that bad, mostly because Morgase was never really aware of what was happening to her, until she broke free. Same goes for Graendal - none of her pets are aware of their plight.

I think this makes Ravin & Graendal even creepier. If their victims have no idea they're being victimized, they have no reason & therefore no chance of breaking free. Makes R & G the two nastiest of the nastys IMHO.
635. nor3
Nah, I don't find compulsion all that frightening. I think this is due to my viewpoint on good and evil.

Basically, I view causing pain as a fundamentally evil act. Any evil deed you care to mention ultimately boils down to causing another person pain. That is my world view, and it is the principle on which I base my moral code.

So, in terms of literature, that translates to "An evil character will deliberately try to cause suffering; a good character will work to lessen other people's suffering." More pain caused = more evil. And so Compulsion doesn't rank as high on my "big list of evil deeds" as it seems to do for many other people, because it does not cause pain.

It does, of course, count as a heinous and deplorable deed, because it essentially amounts to murder. But it is a quick and painless death, and so for me the actions of Semirhaige are far worse, as she deliberately trys to cause slow, protracted deaths of the most painfull kind imagineable.

I'm sure many of you disagree with me, since people take many different stances on morality, and some would denounce what others consider normal, but that's my view. Feel free to comment on it.
Jack Diamond
636. violetdancer
Hey guys, long time with no wacko theory from me. I may not be posting but I am keeping up on all your comments (talk about OCD). Here's a thought I had on the Lanfear/Finn discussion.

We know Lanfear was held by the Finns for at least some time. Let's assume that she's really a helpless prisoner (enhanced or not). What if Moridin went in (perhaps through the ToG or another portal we don't know about) and made the deal for her release. It is his request that she look the way she does and has power reduced. And that's how he got hold of her mindtrap. I have no idea what price he paid, but of course it's just another wacko theory.
Sam Mickel
637. Samadai
violetdancer,(I was going to shortcut your name with just vd, but somehow that just seemed wrong);P

It is a good theory and no more whacko than any of the others we heard.
Tess Laird
638. thewindrose
One point I would like to bring up about power reducing. Why would DO want any of his chosen to have reduced power? When he is giving Moggy the what for in aCoS, he says HOW DEEP IS YOUR FAILURE, MOGHEDIEN? THE CHOSEN ARE ALWAYS THE STRONGEST, BUT YOU LET YOURSELF BE CAPTURED. YOU TAUGHT THOSE WHO WOULD OPPOSE ME, MOGHEDIEN.
He doesn't reduce her power, he just has her mindtraped.
So why a power reduction and mindtrap for Lanfear?
And she thinks about when the Finns held her, but not about transmigration of her body. I still like the theory that she was there before and had a power upgrade and enhanced looks to become the most beautiful and powerful woman of all time. And she lost these enhancements when she is held there this second time.

Helen Peters
639. Helen
I like that theory.

Who gives me the creeps are Carridin and Asunawa. They're just plain nasty.

And @608
I don't count Fain as being a DF, OK he was the DO's hound at one point but that was under duress, he turned against the dark as soon as he could, OK not toward the light though. I just think of him as evil 'other'.
Marcus W
640. toryx
nor3 @ 635:

Hmm. That's an interesting perspective. Does that mean, then, that a doctor performs an evil act on a day to day basis? Or a Dentist? Or anyone who enjoys S&M in their sex life?

I'm just curious about how those things fit into your worldview. Evidently when I was a kid and used to beat up on my little brother every now and then for causing me grief I was evil. Which does make sense.

Glad I grew out of that.

Going back to your example regarding Compulsion, what about those times when Graendal forced her toys to bend into difficult (and surely painful on some level) contortions?

For that matter, if someone is Compelled to actually enjoy pain, is it still an evil act if someone is giving them what they claim to want?

Things like this are why I don't believe in terms of black and white when it comes to good and evil.
Alice Arneson
641. Wetlandernw
nor3 - You're a fan of the Seanchan, then? Slavery is okay as long as it's not physically painful? Once a damane learns not to break the rules of the a'dam that cause her pain, it's okay to treat her like an animal? Or is it okay from day one, because her pain is caused by her own actions?

Where do you draw the line between physical and emotional pain? If it doesn't affect your nerves, is it okay? Oh, woops. Semirhage was pretty good at causing pain without bothering with nerves, she just went straight to the brain. The kid Graendal sent as messenger - apparently deep down inside there was a tiny grain of himself left, hating what she had done to him, so that his emotional pain and anger gave him just enough strength to tell Rand where she was before he died. Is that pain? Or does that not count because it wasn't physical?

Morgase is learning about some of the things she did under Rahvin's Compulsion; she is horrified at even the little she knows. Soon she's going to learn how hard it was for Elayne to Succeed her because of the allies who were alienated by her actions; I'm betting that for Morgase, that will be far worse than any physical pain you could cause. Seeing the devastation to her beloved Andor, caused primarily by her Compelled behavior, will be far more painful than any torture Asunawa could have come up with. But that's emotional pain, so it doesn't count? Rahvin isn't too bad, because at least he didn't cause her much physical pain?

I do believe in black & white when it comes to good and evil, but I think it's pretty silly to limit "evil" to simple physical pain. If nothing else, a quick and painless murder might be easy on the direct victim, but the extended consequences of that action cannot be discounted as irrelevant.
Michael Maxwell
642. pike747
During that wonderful “Faile made Gai’shan to the Shaido” story arc Perrin states repeatedly in his interior dialogue that he would “deal with The Dark One” to get her back. In fact he often thinks that he has dealt with the Dark One in the form of the Seanchan. He appears to revise his thoughts as he and the Seanchan General form their little mutual admiration society. Something did occur to make him less susceptible to being lured using Zarine. He, like most of us would be about our significant other, is very aware of something not smelling quite right about her and Rolan. Well with him the smelling part is more literal. He seems willing to drop it and move on but I have some sense of him being less dependent on the queen of head games. I do not hate Zarine but she is a freakin’ weirdo if you ask me. I suppose I am just a plain speaking, get things out in the open, type person.
Rand has certainly come dangerously close to going over to the Shadow quite a few times but I think we all still consider him the Captain of Team Light.
Perrin should be my favorite character because I have such an affinity for wolves but he just isn’t. If I were him I would be so psyched to be a wolf! I realize the danger of being too vulpine but come on man learn to love yourself the way you are and to enjoy your unique abilities. I do also realize he was deeply hurt by the cost in lives to his wolf brother and sisters at Dumai’s Wells.
Speaking of that, is that eBook cover for Lord of Chaos not awesome?
Steven Pattingale
643. Pattingale
@ Nor3 635

I think compulsion would cause great pain and suffering, mental anguish. Look at the examples of those who've been compelled Morgase, Supergirls, and in TGS Rand (via the sad bracelets). It's a horrible violation of their mind, and they all are mentally scarred (Rand and Morgase the most arguably because their violations were so heinous). The pain may not be physical, but it's very real imho.

So by your definition of causing pain = doing evil, then Ravin and Graendal are bad dudes. Bad bad dudes.

Holy moly lots of posts while I wrote this... including a great one from Wet covering similar ground. *tips hat to Wet*
Michael Maxwell
644. pike747
Mat’s got skills. Not only is he the coolest and luckiest character in Rand Land, he can do combat. Anyone, anytime with anything. Whatever it takes with whatever’s handy. Yes he is VERY lucky but his skill and his luck always push each other, drive each other like the Fang and the Flame.
Think about it. He has been in many situations where all of his luck was required. That denotes a high degree of skill. He defeated Galad and Gawyn without stretching his skill or luck, no mean feat, that. (which happened before snakes and foxes, and with only his early training) He defeated Couladin and personally believed it was more luck than skill. (And this battle takes place off-camera?) The darkfriend Maiden would have killed 99.9 percent of people in that situation. Oh and don’t forget the guy Rahvin sent to kill Elayne and her friends. He couldn’t believe Mat killed him until it was way too late! (Once again before his trips to the lands of the Eelfinn and the Alefinn)
Sure Rand is a badass so are Perin, Galad, Gawyn, Beslan, Aviehenda, Berlaine, The Emonds Field girls, Elayne, Faile. Mat is at the top of this list before Snakes, Foxes, memories, old tongue. After, all bets are off! I am comparing him to his approximate age group here. I would put him in any other list with no age distinction, especially post snakes and foxes.
Of course he almost never wants to fight. He plans meticulously to avoid fights that, using the same tactics, anyone else would have avoided but his ‘luck’ takes him right to the thick of it where he has no choice but to fight for his life and the lives of his companions. Then he just kicks ass.
“I was just trying to keep from getting my throat cut, a spear poked through me, from being hanged, you fill in the gap.”
Never belittle his love for and his loyalty to Tuon, The Band, Rand, Perin, Anyone he takes under his protection. Fighting to protect these people absolutely raises his game even higher. He really shines in his getting them out of Altara.
Unfortunately, his character is the most neglected other than Elayne in The Gathering Storm. Of anyone onscreen, he and ‘SWMNBN’ are the least like themselves. I can only pray that the upcoming novel’s story arc had extensive notes and finished work by RJ. A title like ‘The Towers of Midnight’ tells me that Mat will figure extensively in this one.
I love Brandon but in this area he needs some ta’veren twisting of his storytelling ability. Let us all beam thoughts of Mat’s essential coolness at Brandon.
I think Mat was RJ’s favorite character. They even wear similar hats.
Have to add that I did not like Mat during the Shadar Logoth Dagger arc. How many people could have survived that? No one could come through that “likeable”. Saw the very best of Rand during that, however. Mat did come through when Rand was sick from channeling.
Tina Pierce
645. scissorrunner
pike @642 completely awesome cover!!!
wish we could get hardcopies of them all
Tess Laird
646. thewindrose
pike747 -
::snicker::During that wonderful “Faile made Gai’shan to the Shaido”
Also fondly know as the Kidnapping Arc of Doom.

And, yes I have seen the eBook cover - tis awesome!

nor3 - I will have to agree that there is such thing as mental anguish that is equivalent or can even supersede physical pain. I don't know if you get into Egwene's story arcs at all, but there are good examples rife throughout her arcs.

Antoni Ivanov
647. tonka
I think Rand is the on the top, coolest, most bad-ass character. But that's my opinion. I like Mat.But I don't see him being better than Rand. More light , yes, funnier, yes, but stronger, No... But that's my opinion.
Steven Pattingale
648. Pattingale
@ 644

Well said. :) Mat is made of awesome.

@ 645
I'd like a calendar or something of those ebook cover's they're soooo good!
Bonnie Andrews
649. misfortuona
A Calendar!! That may be the best idea I've seen yet.

James Jones
650. jamesedjones
642 pike747
I do also realize he was deeply hurt by the cost in lives to his wolf brother and sisters at Dumai’s Wells.
Please don't disregard the loss of the lives of his entire family to trollocs in TSR. Being a little clingy with Faile and the wolves is perfectly natural after that.

And, well said about Mat. You nailed it!
Steven Pattingale
651. Pattingale
Thank you Misfortuona for seconding the calendar idea. Lets hope someone at Tor is listening! :)

Hey folks, what scene/scenes are you just dying to see in the next two books? One for me is Rand and Gawyn meeting. Sparks will fly! :)

What about y'all?
Tina Pierce
652. scissorrunner
A calendar? completely awesome, but how do we squish 14 new covers in?????
653. nor3
@ toryx 640

"Does that mean, then, that a doctor performs an evil act on a day to day basis? Or a Dentist? Or anyone who enjoys S&M in their sex life?"

No, of course not. These are essentially altruistic actions, intended to enhance the health/oral hygiene/sex life of another person. The pain is an unfortunate side effect. So no, not evil actions.

"Going back to your example regarding Compulsion, what about those times when Graendal forced her toys to bend into difficult (and surely painful on some level) contortions?"

But the person doesn't exist any more, there is only an empty shell of a person, unconcious of any discomfort. At least that is my reading of it. So making them contort would be no worse than bending an inanimate object.

"Things like this are why I don't believe in terms of black and white when it comes to good and evil."

Yes, I agree, there will always be gray areas, but that's the basic principle that I work on.

@wetlander 641

No, no! You've misunderstood! I was using the word pain, so I can see where the confusion came from, but I meant suffering, anguish. Both mental and physical. I actually felt physically sick when I first read about the Seanchan. They utterly disgust me. Both the mental anguish they put these poor girls under, and the physical pain they go through.

As for the compelled boy, my understanding of this level of compulsion is that the person as a conscious entity caeses to exist. They are unaware of anything, and therefore cannot feel pain of any kind, mental or physical.

And I really do feel sorry for Morgase, but very few (if any) people ever come out from that level of compulsion; she may even be unique. And so I do not feel that this single crime of Rhavin's ranks with Semirhaige torturing literally countless people. I'm not saying that Rhavin isn't to blame, just that Semirhaige is worse.

@Patingale 643

"I think compulsion would cause great pain and suffering, mental anguish. Look at the examples of those who've been compelled Morgase, Supergirls, and in TGS Rand (via the sad bracelets)"

As I said to Wet just above, I intended ''mental suffering'' to be included in ''pain''. Sorry for the confusion.

I've covered Morgase just above, and consider her case to be horrible, but not on the scale of all of Semirhaige's crimes. Likewise with the Supergirls. As for Rand, I never considered that incident 'compulsion', but yes it was horrible for all involved. But the reason it was horrible for Rand (leaving Min's suffering aside) was because he was AWARE of it, which I don't believe compelled people are.
Steven Pattingale
654. Pattingale
@ 653 Nor3

Is the victim's awareness of being assaulted (physically or mentally) necessary to make it wrong?

If one was knocked out with an odourless, tasteless gas then savagely beaten and killed while unconscious one would be just as dead, and the assailant just as guilty in my mind as one who didn't render the victim unconscious first.

So if one is mindwiped and warped by a nutty Forsaken, then I still see that as wrong. Evil committed without an observer is just as evil imo. So I guess I'd say if a tree falls in a forest it doesn't matter if someone heard it fall. :)
Tricia Irish
655. Tektonica
Calendars of the new covers? Yes! 14 covers.....12 months plus the front and back of the calendar = 14. They are so good. I would love new dust jackets for my hard backs.

Re: Scenes I can't wait to see:

New/original Rand, with insights/integration
True Rand/Tam reunion
Tower of Genji rescue mission
Rand/Moraine reunion
Black tower confrontation
Egwene/Rand meeting of the minds.
Rand beat down of Moridan (has anyone seen Bully Beatdown on TV? Hilarious!)
Rand kills Fain, kind of casually, by accident, just for irony
Asunawa is killed by anybody, please. Whitecloaks are dissolved.
Lan and his army take on the evils of the Blight at TG.
Mat negotiates a treaty with Rand/Tuon
Egwene makes Tuon channel, Tuon sees the Moral light, ends use of A'dam and slavery.
Mat and The Band kick butt at TG.
Perrin/the Wolves/Rand/Nynaeve kick butt at TG in T'A'R
Song is found, loud singing, land is healed

I could go on and on....relationship resolutions, mysteries solved, battles waged and won, denouments....So Much!!!
Janet Hopkins
656. JanDSedai
In the same vein, does anyone think that Lews Therin was "fine" when he was wandering around his broken palace? Then Ishamael came and "cured" him, which was the untimate cruelty. So, yes, awareness is a big part of the evil, whether on our part or the victims. And the way people can close their eyes to the cruelty perpetrated on others is the greatest evil.

As a corollary, to do nothing is to do evil. Doing good is an act of volition, but we can do evil by doing nothing.

That's the big problem I have with Buddhism; the holy hermits withdraw from the world, rather than working to make the world better. The belief that this world doesn't matter, but being born higher in the next life does. The world does matter, and what we do today can change what happens tomorrow.
Birgit F
657. birgit
So making them contort would be no worse than bending an inanimate object.

Using living statues as furniture isn't OK just because they are too Compelled to notice what is going on. I always found Graendal the most disturbing Forsaken.
Bonnie Andrews
658. misfortuona
As a corollary, to do nothing is to do evil. Doing good is an act of volition, but we can do evil by doing nothing.

I couldn't agree more. Closing our eyes to the bad around us instead of helping is evil, extending a helping hand when it is needed is the highest good.

Mis-preaching just a little
Tricia Irish
659. Tektonica

I'm no expert on Buddhism, but many Buddhist priests go out into the world to preach peace and understanding and tolerance, like the Dalai Lama himself.

There have always been certain sects of various religions that focus on contemplation. Certainly the Catholics have always had such groups. Everyone has different strengths and interests.
660. Freelancer

I'll make this simple and blunt, and apologies to all.

Your logic permits date rape, if the victim is heavily drugged and neither feels nor recalls any unpleasantness. Now, before you object, even if your sensibilities would not permit such an heinous action, your own described "worldview" allows for it, and others who might otherwise be bound by a more traditional morality would avail themselves of yours.
Don Barkauskas
661. bad_platypus
pike747 @642:
If I were I would be so psyched to be a wolf! I realize the danger of being too vulpine...
Vocabulary police on the prowl! You mean "lupine," not "vulpine." "Vulpine" (= foxlike) would be used to describe Mat.

(Strangely enough, I made this exact same comment to a different poster on tFoH, part 21. I had to look up "vulpine" back then, which is why I remembered it this time.)
662. nor3
OK, I'd like to clarify something : I never intended to imply that this was a black-and-white issue. There are gray areas/areas that aren't covered by my idea, I don't deny this and I don't condone the actions that are not covered by my belief. The concept of "causing pain to another is bad" is a guiding principle only, not an absolute rule.

So would you all PLEASE stop accusing me of supporting slavery/date rape/whatever else. Those of you have done so have misinterpreted what I was trying to convey.

What I was trying to say was that I find an evil that someone is not aware of less evil than one someone is aware of. I do not find them acceptable - just less deplorable. Thus, I consider Graendal's compulsion to be less horrible than Semirhaige's torture.

I would like to apologise if I have somehow offended anyone by implying that certain actions can be condoned. I would like to stress once again that I was only intending to illustrate a guiding principle, and how it affects my view of the characters, not categorize every concievable act.
Alice Arneson
663. Wetlandernw
Pike747 @642 - and others, of course... Personally, I think we overrate our eagerness to be Wolfbrothers. For examples, Perrin has Elyas and Noam. What caused one to retain his humanity and the other to lose it? Perrin has no idea, and no way to know which way he'll end up - or what the spectrum might even look like. In addition, he didn't grow up in our tree-hugging, "everything-natural-is-good-and-beautiful" environment; in the Two Rivers, wolves were not loved. They were wild animals who preyed on the livestock - the livelihood - of the farmers and villagers, so were viewed with wariness at best and, more commonly, active animosity.

So there he is - finding that he's brother to wild animals he's always considered enemies of humans, and realizing that said brotherhood could result in losing his humanity. Where's the "psyched" in that? As Perrin gets to know the wolves and respect their ways, he gets more comfortable with the changes in himself and his ability to communicate with them, but it's a bit naive to think he could make the entire adjustment with glee in the two years full of chaos that he's had.
Ron Garrison
664. Man-0-Manetheran
"Lupines? We have no lupines."

"I happen to know this is the Lupine Express."
Rob Munnelly
666. RobMRobM
Quick updates from Brandon's website. Percentage completion bar has moved up again, reflecting more forward progress - but he tweeted about deadline stress he is feeling from both ToM and Way of Kings. Ugh.

P.s. Not going to deal with the def of evil posts. Sorry, not going there.
667. nor3
@RobM : Wise move. I'm sorry I did go there.

@wet : No, I do not have children. Where in god's name are you going with this?
Janet Hopkins
668. JanDSedai
I think what wet is going to say is that children change you in ways you cannot imagine. I didn't grow up until I had my first child. The compromises you make with yourself are not apparent until you have to answer for and to someone else. Talk about paradigm shift!

I read Stephen King's Cujo shortly after I had my first child. Mad dog keeping people trapped in a car for four days, I would not have even given a shiver a year before. But when I imagined a mother watching her child die- imagined the child in my arms dying- I paced the floor several hours that night.
You see things differently AC (after children)
Tricia Irish
669. Tektonica

You are So Right! It's a whole new ballgame after the kids. Paradigm shift, indeed.
670. nor3
Yes, obviously my view is going to change, not just whenever I have kids, but at several points during my life. But does that make my current view somehow wrong or invalid? People evolve, and their ideals change with them, and at no stage do they suddenly have a "correct" worldview. I was only attempting to explain my current take on things.
Marcus W
671. toryx

For what it's worth, I meant no criticism of your view/ concept of evil. I was asking my questions not to be critical or mocking but out of genuine curiosity. I personally have a non-traditional view of good and evil so I'm always fascinated by other people's view and your post interested me.
Michael Maxwell
672. pike747
@647. tonka
This is mainly an answer to @206. nor3 who asked if he were the only one who doesn't like Mat
I did not mean to say, even though I did, that Mat was THE top of that list. I was just placing him smack in that company. I did actually mean to put Rand at the top. And Rand is cool as well. Sometimes it is less obvious as the story moves along. In the earlier novels he was extremely cool. With the weight of the world on his shoulders he is still very cool.
Not trying to say who would win in a fair fight between Rand and Mat, Mat and Perrin Rand and Perrin. My list was very “unofficial”. There are many I left out but I thought those I included gave a good overall impression of my point. I wouldn’t want to tangle with any of them sans special abilities. There is no way I could draw a Two Rivers long bow and I am fairly strong. I meant that I consider the characters I named all very strong mentally and physically. I guess I might be hinting that Mat is one of the most naturally athletic. Perrin is very strong and Rand has that good balance of strength and athletic ability. Can’t wait till Rand, Mat and Perrin united, uncork it against the DO at the same time. I could almost feel sorry for the bad guys. And that is not to negate the ability and power of many others I eagerly anticipate watching, hearing about as TLB approaches. I could do a long topic on that! Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Birgitte, Lan, Aviendha, Gawyn (If he can extricate his head), Galad (Who seems to have done so), Gareth Brynne, Ituralde, Tam, The Aiel, The Seanchan. I am leaving people out but I hope you get the idea.
673. nor3
@toryx 671 : Thanks, but I didn't find YOUR comments critical or mocking at all. I too am interested by people's views, and in particular what influences them. It's just that I found certain OTHER people's comments to have a very critical tone. In fairness, large parts of this critisism came essentially from a breakdown in communication, but I still don't appreciate people implying that my views are intrinsically wrong, which is definately the undercurrent I feel in some of these posts.
Michael Maxwell
674. pike747
@641. Wetlandernw
Morgase is learning about some of the things she did under Rahvin's Compulsion; she is horrified at even the little she knows. Soon she's going to learn how hard it was for Elayne to Succeed her because of the allies who were alienated by her actions; I'm betting that for Morgase, that will be far worse than any physical pain you could cause. Seeing the devastation to her beloved Andor, caused primarily by her Compelled behavior, will be far more painful than any torture Asunawa could have come up with. But that's emotional pain, so it doesn't count? Rahvin isn't too bad, because at least he didn't cause her much physical pain?
Excellent point! I could feel very sorry for her for that but at some point she allowed the man a foothold. Even Elayne has issues with her mother’s relationships with men. Yes Rahvin was supposed to be very handsome and all but come on!
@663. Wetlandernw
Fully admit to being quick on the draw with my Lupine affinity. (@ 661. bad_platypus. Thank you for the correction. I did think they were interchangeable!) I did like Perrin very much in the first three books. (I guess he and Mat have switched places for me) I probably have problems with almost every character in these stories when it comes to keeping their inherent abilities/personalities hidden. I suppose I should have the most problem with the manipulative forces that make that necessary. I am all about being who and what you are no matter what others think or say.
It is just the fact if I could do what Perrin can do I would be psyched! And I do concede the point that most people in the WOT see wolves as evil/harmful, like many in our world.
But really how effective has it been for these characters to hide their true selves? Once Perrin and Egwene were in Whitecloak custody they were automatically guilty of being Darkfriends/Shadowspawn with little chance of being found innocent. Even though Geofram Bornhald was probably the kindest or most fair-minded Whitecloak ever (not saying much), he was still a stone cold killer who put expediency before right and wrong.
Rand has to constantly hide who and what he is. The more powerful he becomes, the more so. I could fully see myself if I were him saying things like:
“Of course I can channel! I had to in order to save mine and my friends lives time and again, oh and by the way I have to save the world!”
“So what if I have conversations with a madman in my head, he knows how to do things no one else knows and he gives good advice! What would you do if you had to face the Forsaken?”
“Of course I am half mad, I am supposed to be. I cleansed Saidin though! Wait till we see what the True Power does to me!”
That is just me though. I do understand that in WOT a person would have to be more circumspect. I would have died in the first act.
Michael Maxwell
675. pike747
@651. Pattingale
Thank you Misfortuona for seconding the calendar idea. Lets hope someone at Tor is listening! :)

Hey folks, what scene/scenes are you just dying to see in the next two books? One for me is Rand and Gawyn meeting. Sparks will fly! :)

What about y'all?

A calendar would be a great idea with a large, pullout, rendition of Dumai's Wells! :-)}

I have been anticipating a meeting between Rand and Elayne's Brothers for a very long time! I just recently thought how it might be if Lan and Luc encounter one another.
@655. Tektonica quite a good list.
I am currently reading The Great Hunt and Rand found the song already but he forgot! I really think this is the key to the whole story!
Tricia Irish
676. Tektonica

Please feel free to state whatever you're thinking! Debate is always lively here and it's OK. Everyone stays pretty civil, and some are very erudite, as you've seen. No one makes personal attacks, although they might disagree with you vehemently.

Of course we evolve over time, and each stage of our personal developments are unique and important and valid. I, for one, appreciate your thoughtful input. You obviously care very much about the books and have given your arguments careful consideration. (My own comment @669 was just a general life agreement with JanSedai above.) Thanks for participating!


I am currently reading The Great Hunt and Rand found the song already but he forgot! I really think this is the key to the whole story!

Where did you see Rand found the Song? What's the key? Explain, please!!
677. Freelancer

I wasn't intending to inflame. You did represent the original statement of your worldview as seemingly absolute, which would have been disturbing if true. I'm quite glad that such is not the case. You opened the concept, and it merited comment/discussion. When you take a distinctly non-standard position, you should always be prepared to elaborate and/or defend your reasoning. Be well.
Michael Maxwell
678. pike747
@676. Tektonica

As far as the key, it is just my opinion that the song is the key to defeating The DO and healing the world. I read somewhere that RJ liked to listen to music while writing and since LT asks Baalza'mon/Ishamael if he has "the voice" in the Prologue of EotW I have felt it was central to the story.

In the Great Hunt, Saidin, pg. 304-305

'Suddenly--a drifting, distant thought--he realized that the void surrounded him. Saidin sang, and the sphere pulsed--even without looking, he could feel it--and the thought came that if he sang the song saidin sang, that huge stone face would open it's mouth and sing with him. With him and with saidin. All one.
"Please, Rand," Selene said. "I will go to the village with you. I won't mention the Horn again. Only come away!"
He released the void...and it did not go. Saidin crooned, and the light in the sphere beat like a heart. Like his heart. Loial, Hurin, Selene, they all stared at him, but they seemed oblivious to the glorious blaze from the crystal. He tried to push the void away. It held like granite; he floated in an emptiness as hard as stone. The song of saidin, the song of the sphere, he could feel them quivering along his bones. Grimly he refused to give in, reached deep inside himself....I will not...
"Rand." He did not know who's voice it was.
...reached for the core of who he was, the core of what he was...
...will not ...
"Rand." The song filled him, filled the emptiness.
...touched stone, hot from the pitiless sun, cold from a merciless night....
Light filled him, blinded him.
"Till shade is gone," he mumbled, "till water is gone..."
Power filled him. He was one with the sphere.
"...into the shadow with teeth bared..."
The power was his.
" spit in Sightblinder's eye..."
Power to Break the World.
"...on the last day!" It came out as a shout, and the void was gone.'

This is when they are travelling to Cairhien and he sees the large statue, The male Choeden Kal, being unearthed.
It clearly terrifies Selene/Lanfear and is quite a powerful moment. I got a chill just from copying it! Maybe someday I will write something one one hundredth as good. And, just as Rand seems to forget this almost immediately, I was not aware of it until I read it again yesterday.

There is also The Lost One's search for the song and the scene in The Shadow Rising, The Dedicated 432-433; when Rand goes to Rhuidean and see's through his ancestor Coumin's eye's and hears them seed singing.

'The Ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men's voices lifting in their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier's. Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance, gliding across the field in swooping strides, arms wide, butterflies swirling about him, landing on his spread fingertips.
Coumin could hear the seed singing around the other fields, hear the women clapping to urge the men on, their rhythm the heartbeat of new life, but it was a distant knowledge. The song caught him up, and he almost felt that it was himself, not the sounds he made, that Someshta wove into the soil and around the seeds. Seeds no longer, though. Zemais sprouts covered the field, taller wherever the Nym's foot had trod. No blight would touch those plants, nor any insect; seed sung, they would eventually grow twice as high as a man and fill the towns grainbarns. This was what he had been born for, this song and the other seed songs.'

There is more but I have retyped quite a bit. I suppose I am referring to different songs here but each are powerful.
Tricia Irish
679. Tektonica

Wow! Perhaps Rand will remember the song he heard in the pillars in Rhuidean and with callandor can sing the song of the Universe and heal the land and project monstrous good to defeat the DO. Or something.
I'm going to have to think about this. And reread it and tEotW prologue as well.

I have a feeling the two songs are just different aspects of the Same Song...the Universal music of The Creator.

Edit: I'd never connected those two songs before.

Thanks for all your typing, I appreciate it.
John Massey
680. subwoofer
Well then, things have been going on here. I'd like to say interesting things- but, in a nut shell, Bela has been getting teemed on. Poor girl:(

Survey hmmmmmmmmmmm? As for me- 100% pure bred a$$-kicker.

Coat of arms-

I am liking GF and his forsaken post though.

As for how Lanfear ducked out of Finnland- maybe she flashed her ta-tas at the snake people, and while they were gathering their collective jaws off the ground, she did a quick exit, stage left;)

Just sayin'.

Alice Arneson
681. Wetlandernw
nor3 - I wasn't trying to trap you into anything, I was just curious. My thinking when I asked the question was regarding my own 6-year-old. With her in particular, it's absolutely deadly to allow a "ranking system" with regard to whether something is wrong, or how bad it is. We really have to hold hard to an "if it's wrong, it's wrong" attitude; otherwise, she'll be negotiating consequences till we're all upside down. (Anyone think I'm a wordsmith? Watch my daughter in action sometime! It's truly frightening.) Anyway... she has really needed to learn that if I tell her not to do something, it's wrong to do it, and it doesn't matter what it was or why I said not to. Any disobedience is wrong, and it's just not acceptable to go down the "but what I did wasn't as wrong as what he did yesterday" path.

The flip side is that as you realize what you need to teach your kids, you begin to see your own double standards. And while it's bad enough seeing your own "little" hypocrisies, trying to explain them to a perceptive child is an exercise in humiliation - your own. I know not everyone will have the same standards, expectations, or experience with raising kids, but children are far more perceptive than we often expect, and they see straight through things we think are pretty well disguised.

I seriously was not trying to beat you down in any way; I mull these conversations over while I'm doing housework, and all manner of extraneous material gets worked in and out. This was one that occurred to me, and the more I thought about it the more I realized what an impact children had made on my own views. I wanted to ask the question in a vacuum, partly so that I didn't make a complete fool of myself speculating on the subject. :) Also, I was much too tired last night to present anything like a rational case for what I was thinking. Thanks for responding so appropriately! :)
Alice Arneson
682. Wetlandernw
pike747 @674 - I think I began to view the Morgase storyline differently when I started to seriously think about the long-term effect of Rahvin's Compulsion. Certainly Morgase "gave him a foothold" in a couple of ways - she's been known to notice handsome men, and given "Lord Gaebril's" involvement in settling the riots that had started while she was gone (at his instigation, but she couldn't know that), it only made sense for her to meet and thank him in person. That's about all the foothold he would have needed to set his Compulsion, and from there on out the only thing that saved her life, her sanity and any shred of personality was the strength of her charater and her strong dislike of being told what to do. The fact that Rahvin was "very handsome" would, I think, have had very little to do with it. As for Elayne & her issues... I don't have the energy or time to go there right now. Let's just say that I read it as having more to do with my mother??!!! than any major problem with the actual... activities.

I do understand that in WOT a person would have to be more circumspect. I would have died in the first act. LOL! And besides, whether they died or succeeded with that tactic, there wouldn't be 15 books to read about it in. ;P

Gentleman Farmer - I've been meaning (and forgetting) to comment on your idea about the Forsaken and their effect on the people around them. It was a good summary, and the follow-on speculation about using that to tag Demandred's location is a cool idea. Having said that, I think between your original post and others' responses, there's not a lot left for me to actually contribute... *sigh* That's what I get for not doing it right away, I guess!
Tricia Irish
683. Tektonica
Sam@598 and Pike747:

First, wall-o-text alert...sorry....

Sam, I finally did my homework. It's been a long time since I read the Prologue from tEotW and boy, is it something, given what we know now, and the theories we have been discussing about TG. You did a great compare, so I'm just going to mention a few things that jumped out at me and kind of tied in with what Pike747 was saying.....

LTT is wandering around calling for Ilyena. She is dead on the floor at his feet. Obviously he is nuts. The Palace is destroyed, The mind-twisting had struck at the core, ignoring the peripheral things. (What does "the mind-twisting" mean?) He barely recognizes himself in a mirror, doesn't remember what the AS symbol on his cloak means.

Ishmael appears and LTT doesn't recognize him, calling him “a guest”. Elan Morin Tedronai says," …..Remember, you Light blinded idiot! I will not let it end with you swaddled in unawareness!....Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and sat in the High Seat, Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion....Once you humbled me in the Hall of Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen...When you die, your last thought will be the full knowledge of your defeat, of how complete and utter it is. If I let you die at all." Then Ishmael heals him very painfully, so that he recognizes Ilyena and he loses it...."He remembered....a cloudy memory....the howl of a man who had discovered his soul damned by his own hand."

LTT travels to a field where he immolates himself with the OP and creates Dragonmount, while calling for the Light to forgive him.

"He could feel the Taint that doomed the world, because in his pride he had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. In his pride he had believed."

Ishmael sees him do this and says..."It is not done between us, It will not be done until the end of time."

The last paragraph says...".Dark lay heavy on the things failed and hope died. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land....Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark and the great sword of justice defend us."

LTT's craziness and despair here certainly mirror Rand's despair on Dragonmount, where he finally sees the possibility of Hope and Redemption. And the final paragraph mentions the Dragon "Singing to the Land" to heal it.
It also mentions the “great sword of justice”, not capitalized, but we know that Artur Hawkwing named his sword, Justice, and some of us believe Rand has it.

How about the line, “because in his pride he had believed that men could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. He had believed.” Ummmm. Can men mend the broken Bore? Is it possible, but just wasn’t done properly, ie: with females helping? Or is it truly not fixable? And what is “the mind twisting that struck at the core”?
684. nor3
Sorry guys. I expected some discussion and debate when I posted my first comment. But it seemed (from my point of view) that it wasn't so much "let's discuss this" so much as "let's attack nor3's views". So when I read wet's question and other comments, I assumed they were assaults on my beliefs, and I realise now that you weren't actually all trying to "beat me down", as wet put it. sorry bout that. I'll try not to do that in future.

But, eh, I hope you guys don't mind if I leave it there.
Ron Garrison
685. Man-0-Manetheran
That passage about singing the seeds in TSR is very significant, IMHO. I know that first time reading TSR, my head was so scrambled trying to keep track of the ancestors and the reverse timeline I think I just skipped right over it. It wasn't until my third read that I actually paid attention to it. My opinion is it could very well be The Big Clue that was never discussed. At least I don't remember it.

Prologue from tEotW: I get a new understanding every time I read it, and it becomes profoundly important as we move toward the end of the story.

Excellent analysis. Pike and Tek moving toward guru status....
Alice Arneson
686. Wetlandernw
nor3 - and here I thought you were just trying to yank our chains and get a reaction! ;) Hey, you might as well claim it - it worked, didn't it? I can't speak for anyone else, but generally speaking, the things that really get us going on here provide me with a great deal of enlightening musing. Sure makes the dish-washing more enjoyable!
Janet Hopkins
687. JanDSedai
re:pike747 @ 678
Did anyone notice how in that quote from TGH that Rand "...reached for the core of who he was, the core of what he was..." and then went into the the Aiel greeting/ blessing/ curse. Lews Therin wasn't in the desert, so where did that come from?! I guess a form of ancestral memory...

re: Tek the mending of the bore
RJ has talked about this, and said (implied?) that both halves of the Source would (might?) have been tainted.(Can't remember the quote) But with the new Bonds between male and female channelers that may have changed; bonding might do what simple linking could not. I think that a new prison for the Dark Lord will have to be forged.

And on the question of evil--
nor3's definition was a little one-dimensional, as was my definition of doing good, not nothing. It is only by being challenged that we know what we believe.

Didn't mean to get into Buddha-bashing; just wanted to point out the "leave the world behind" philosophy rather than actively doing good, which was my original point.
John Massey
688. subwoofer
Could it just be that RJ was being figurative and saying that in the broad sense, Justice, the blind folded chick with the scales had a sword and her sword would defend the righteous or at least the innocent?

Can't participate in the comparison as I would have to do some serious digging to find book 1.

And well, I know this has been pondered before- sorry Bela!- but what if the DO's prison is just that? A funky smelling cell. It does not really exist in this world. What if the bore- door to the prison is wearing out and needs to be replaced or we need a whole new prison? Maybe that is what Fel is talking about. Scrap the seals, scrap the prison, and start from scratch. LTT may have been lamenting because that is what they did in the first place,destroy the OG Egg, and the end result was a prison that needs constant repair or remaking.

Michael Maxwell
689. pike747
@685. Man-0-Manetheran

A huge compliment, thank you. I do not feel it is deserved. The gurus have been here long before I came along. You have all made me aware of so much more of what is happening.
For example I just kinda thought Taim was Demandred at one point probably because their descriptions were very close. Then I look on here and find out how much discussion that point alone has generated, to the point of Robert Jordan having been asked and probably more than once and having to discredit this idea.
When I read some of these posts and see the intelligence level of this group I feel pretty good. Many of you write as well as a pro and in a scholarly manner.

@ 598 Samadai

I really wanted to do as you suggested but I loaned out my copy of EotW and do not own TGS, yet. :-{
Just wrapped up TGH and the quote at the end is pretty cool and relevant also. (It also mentions singing)

I love the end of that story. Ingtar's last stand, The sounding of the Horn, The heroes dialogue with Rand and Hurin, Min, I felt very strongly for Egwene, Nynaeve (That's my girl!) I really hope that Tarmon Gaiden lives up to that or surpasses it!

@680 Subwoofer I love the picture of the can! Especially that it says extra strength!
Tricia Irish
690. Tektonica

Glad you enjoyed the Prologue recap...and thanks....that song has been coming up a lot...I think Pike747 has perhaps hit on our missing clue.

I was so moved when I reread the Prologue. I guess when I first read it, all those references were just "back story" and did not have the profound and far reaching meaning they have for me now.

I also never really felt LTT's pain before....the high position he held, how terribly wrong it had all gone, his battle with the newly turned FS, his old buddies, the crazy companions loosed on the world, what the taint had actually done to him and how far he had fallen, the dissolution of the Aes Sedai as both men and women, the total collapse of a great civilization. Armageddon of an age, really.....on his head.

He did have the moral fortitude to spit in Ishmael's eye, and that says a lot. Ishmael was contemplating not letting him die, so he could just continue to suffer, so LTT took his own life, rather than be bent to the DO.

It certainly helps me to understand the crazy man in Rand's head. He was a good man, trying to do the right thing, not just a whack job. That gives me much hope that now that Rand understands who exactly he is, completely, he will gain knowledge of his past mistakes and can proceed to TG with a plan.....and hopefully, he'll remember the song, as it most certainly seems to be even more important than I thought it was.
Tricia Irish
691. Tektonica

I think you may have hit on the Big Missing Clue. Make a note of every time you see a mention of The Song. I think it is all the same Song...different verses, perhaps....

The Tu'athan song their searching for, the growing Song, the Song Rand hears in the pillars in Rhuidean, the Song mentioned in the Prologue, etc.

Good observations! Thank you.
Ron Garrison
692. Man-0-Manetheran
Tek @ 690
You said that very well. Upon the first few reads of the prologue, it's hard to relate. But at this point, it is incredibly powerful and moving.

"He was a good man, trying to do the right thing, not just a whack job. That gives me much hope that now that Rand understands who exactly he is, completely, he will gain knowledge of his past mistakes and can proceed to TG with a plan."

...and he can forgive himself for his mistakes.
Ron Garrison
693. Man-0-Manetheran
More Song thoughts:
Avienda is currently in Rhuidian. What will she find there that is necessary to the Grand Finale?
Alice Arneson
694. Wetlandernw
pike747 - I love the end of that story.... I really hope that Tarmon Gaiden lives up to that or surpasses it! BWS said on his blog
But I've read the ending now. It works. It fits. A journey like this one hinges a lot on the destination. And that destination turned out to be everything I wanted it to be.
He said long ago that the first time he went to Harriet's house and was given access to the whole shebang, he wanted to read two things: who killed Asmodean, and the ending. (Unfortunately, at the moment I can't find that article, so I can't give it to you straight up. But the above is a direct quote.) He mentioned being incredibly relieved to realize that the ending was already written, so he wouldn't have to do that, and feeling both surprised by it and totally satisified. Hope that makes you just as eager to read the last book as I am!! (You probably already were, but hey - I need to make sure everyone else has the twitches for it too!)
Thomas Keith
695. insectoid
Sub @680: BAHAHAhahaha!! ::rolls on floor::

697. Freelancer

Oh well, I simply can't post you-tube links without them getting spam-banned. So, here's the text of the link in two parts:

"I'm fan-boying all of this. And you said, 'Do you want some dinner?' And my response was, 'No, I want the ending. I want the ending and I want to know who killed Asmodean.'"

Imagine that Brandon has been carrying that ending around in his head for over two years now, and never elaborated on it, even indirectly, until after TGS was released. Unless I miss my guess, he would have felt it wasn't his place to speak of the story's ending, even circumspectly, until he had officially "made his mark" on the series. Such is the integrity of Brandon Sanderson.
Antoni Ivanov
698. tonka
And the fact that he is bound by Non-disclosure agreement
Michael Maxwell
699. pike747
The Great Hunt

And Men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

--from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon,

Author unknown, the Fourth Age
Michael Maxwell
700. pike747
I have also read somewhere that Robert Jordan knew how the story would end when he began writing it. I agree with Brandon that if I were him I would be so glad that it is already written. His task is difficult enough without having that responsibility.
Just remember folks it is only an ending not the ending
Michael Maxwell
701. pike747
More musical musings

TSR, The Dedicated428-429

' "Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?" He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. "Of course you do. You Da'shain have more courage than...Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him. And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood." '

Into The Doorway 249
"Good . You have brought no lamps, no torches, as the agreement was, and is, and ever will be. You have no iron? No instruments of music?"

And the foxes ask the same, worded slightly differently.

What this has me pondering is that we all carry instruments of music wherever we go. Even if we were unable to speak we can hum at specific frequencies, whistle. I can hear harmonies in my head. We also carry iron in our blood.

Moiraine's voice is often described as 'musical' I postulate that she might have a fine singing voice.
Lanfear does not seem 'musical'.
Rand asked how he can win but would they provide him with an answer related to song? Could they even?
702. Freelancer

I was not speaking of spoilers. There is great leeway to speak of your impressions or reactions to something, without approaching the boundaries of a NDA. This was my very point, that Brandon chose to say nothing more than that he had read the ending, when he could have, even back then, said what he says now, that the ending was good, significant, appropriate, and satisfying. He chose to not say any of those things then, that he feels comfortable saying now, because now the story is partially his as well, where prior to publication of TGS he would have been speaking as little more than a fan who got the chance to go "inside", as it were.

Tina Pierce
703. scissorrunner
hmmm - either there have been no posts for nearly 5 hours, or TOR isn't refreshing at my house :( either way
Ron Garrison
704. Man-0-Manetheran
Ditto. And if there are no "Latest Comments" for this board on the front page, it becomes quite the challenge to find it.

The Open Thread is NOT listed on the re-read index, the big WoT index, or Leigh's index. I managed to find my way back only by going to my personal page and checking "My Comments." It's almost as challenging as finding The Song.
Alice Arneson
705. Wetlandernw
I bookmarked it in my browser so I can come straight to it. :> That said... we're awfully quiet today.
Tricia Irish
706. Tektonica
Must have been nice weather all over....everyone outside. I checked a couple of times, but there was no one home and I had nuthin'

Hi guys!


I did reread the last two chapters of tGS and it is a very nice juxtaposition with tEotW prologue. I recommend it. Given what we've been talking about,
there's a lot of meat there. Rand is definitely BACK!
707. nor3
Maybe I should say something controversial again?
Tricia Irish
708. Tektonica
LOL! Go ahead! Maybe you could use a code name so you don't get flamed or barraged again!

Edit: If you're bored, you go always "go gray" and join up! If you're not put off by us.....
Sandy Brewer
709. ShaggyBella
@651. Pattingale

What scene/scenes are you just dying to see in the next two books?

A little late to the party, but
(besides the ones already mentioned.)
I would like to see:

Loial & the Ogier kicking butt at TG.
Aludra & her Dragons kicking butt at TG.
Rand finding out he is a Daddy.
Suffa the damane.
Tuon's reunion with Mat & finding out he is the Horn Sounder.
and many more...
Helen Peters
710. Helen
@687. JanDSedai
Re Rand reciting the Aiel greeting.
Did Loial not use that greeting with Rand when they first met in the library in Caemlyn? When he mistook him for an Aiel. Cannot check my book here, someone else will let me know soon (hopefully).

Question. Is anyone else scared for Siuan? She's the only person left who knows where the horn is. Surely that puts her at the top of the list for DF killing. Mesaana must know that it's in the tower somewhere, or at least that the tower had it at some point, so is she aware that now if she kills one person it's lost for the foreseeable future?
Rob Munnelly
711. RobMRobM
@687, 710. Yes, Loial did use that greeting with Rand when he first met him in EoTW. Way to go. R
Dorothy Johnston
712. CloudMist
But would Messana know that Siuan hasn't already passed the secret on to Egwene? Also, I think Ishamael was the only Forsaken who knew that Mat and not Rand Blew The Horn at Falme. He might deduce and Fain certainly knows the Horn is in the Tower but I don't think any of the surviving Forsaken do.
Antoni Ivanov
713. tonka
I am pretty sure Ishamael had no idea that Mat blew the Horn, on the contrary I think there is passage (in the 3th book) where he is saying that Rand is a fool to blow the Horn or something like that.
The only people who know that Mat blew the Horn are Perrin, Rand, Hurin, Verin, Moiraine, Siuan, Birgit.
Of all of them only Moiraine and Siuan weren't there when happen (or actually Moraine was somewhere close , so only Suian) but I guess they got special privileges for their 20 years of services.
And if someone doubts Hurin , I am pretty sure that Moraine and Verin would not have let him go if they were not sure that he will keep a secret.
Tricia Irish
714. Tektonica
Wall -O-Text Alert:

I finally completed the assignment Sam suggested, that we reread the Prologue of tEotW and the last chapter of tGS and compare, which he did beautifully. I posted something above about tEotW prologue and just reread the last 2 chapters of tGS....VERY moving, especially together. I highly recommend it.

After reading the Prologue to tEotW, I started Book 1 again, just for kicks. I'd reread it several times in the past, but rereading it now, after tGS and Rand's Darkness, is quite a revelation. So much is foreshadowed, so early. RJ really was a genius. Rand, and all the boys and girls, for that is what they were, were so innocent and open. What an amazing journey they've all been on. But Rand, what he's been through..the changes that have been much has been lost, but perhaps has been found again.

A few lines.....well, more than a few, as it turns out....

Moraine: "As the Wheel of Time turns, places wear many names. Men wear many names, many faces. Different faces, but always the same man."

A whole conversation about the war in Ghealdan and the "Dragon" there:
shows lots of confusion about what the Dragon is and who is/is not a DF.
Chapter 3.

"The Dragon! The Dark One's loose in Ghealdan!....Not the Dark One, The Dragon's not the Dark One. And this is a false Dragon, anyway.......Just as bad as the Dark One...The Dragon broke the world, didnt' he?......You know the prophecies! When the Dragon is reborn, your worst nightmares will seem like your fondest dreams.....It's evil times!"

Rand could remember every tale he had heard about the men who named themselves the Dragon Reborn....whole nations torn by battle, cities and towns put to the torch...refugees clogged the roads. The world would end, so some said, when the real Dragon was born again.

Rand ignored the crowd. He took a seat and gathered his cloak around him... Ghealdan, Tar Valon. The very names were strange and exciting. They were places he knew only from peddlers' news and tales told by merchants' guards. Aes Sedai and wars and false Dragons: those were the stuff of stories told late at night in front of the fireplace, with one candle making strange shapes on the wall and the wind howling against the shutters. On the whole, he believed he would rather have blizzards, and wolves. Still, it must be different out there, beyond the Two Rivers, like living in the middle of a gleeman's tale. An adventure. One long adventure. A whole lifetime of it.

Mat: "I heard a story once....He said the Dragon would be reborn in mankind's greatest hour of need, and save us all."
Perrin: "Well, he was a fool if he believed that, and you were a fool to listen."
Mat: "I didnt' say I believed it, I just heard it.
Rand: "What kind of need would be great enough that we'd want the Dragon to save us from it? As well ask for help from the Dark One."
Mat: "He said the world would be torn apart by the Dragon's coming."
Perrin: "I just hope the Aes Sedai and this Dragon stay where they are."
Mat: " You think they're really Darkfriends? The Aes Sedai? Not all stories say they serve the Dark One, Rand."
Rand: " Light, Mat, they caused the Breaking. What more do you want?"

Mat: " Battles interest me....What did he say about them?"

I thought that was VERY telling and I didn't remember it at all, but given the debates about Mat's "abilities", it seems Mat had some innate interest and therefore, probably some knowledge/ability.

There is such a sweetness and openness about all the characters. Much has been lost, but hopefully, Rand has found some measure of it at the end of The Gathering Storm:

"Why? Because each time we live, we get to love again.....because last time I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong. I want to do it right this time.....Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew he would never again hear LTT's voice in his head, for they were not two men, and never had been. .....Then he smiled. Finally, he let out a deep-throated laugh, true and pure. It had been far too long."

Certainly not the young lad from the Two Rivers, but at least an integrated personality and hope and a smile.
John Massey
715. subwoofer
Geeze Tek- now I am going to have to wade through boxes of books to find my book 1. Or I could make the folks at TOR happy and spend some coin buying another copy. My wife would love that-"MORE of THOSE books?!" If I have time maybe I will break out the crayolas and make an Elfstones cover or cut and paste a Grisham cover over it. "See baby? I'm branching out..." Sure, she will buy that. heh.

I guess if we want to delve into the literary front of things, loss of innocence is a strong motif here. All the characters, even Moiraine and Lan undergo change from where they were to where they are now. Rand's character has the most dynamic transition to go through. Sheepherder to Savior. Kinda like a kid sitting at the kitchen table eating his Wheaties saying that some day he will be President. Heady stuff.

The boys sitting around discussing gossip also brings up other modern day parallels. Instead of TMZ or Star or some other gossip rags, we have peddlers, tinkers, and gleemen spreading tales that are fanciful and wonderful but not very accurate when it comes to the facts. Thom being the exception. But the misconceptions the boys discuss- AS being Darkfriends- well, the DF's are the Black Ajah in the AS world but that does not mean all AS are BA. The Dragon breaking the world- well yes, but option B is no Dragon and having the DO dominate the world. What would I prefer, some bloodshed and war and the possibility of normalcy in the end or eternal slavery and darkness. Hmmmmmmm. Tough call.

It would be nice if Fizban comes along and waves a wand and makes everything better, but this is WoT. Drama, poor communication, egos, and the rumor mill are what churns this puppy onward.

And I don't want to get too into this- awwww heck, it is a slow news day, let 'er rip- but anyways, the Dragon is like the coming of Christ. Some people are happy that the Savior is among them, er, we call them dragonsworn. Some people want to persecute and control the Savior- take your pick- White Cloaks, most AS, DF's, Forsaken, general population... Rand has a big target on his back now and everyone wants to take shots. Pity. People should be glad that the champion of the Light- the Dragon, is along to deal with things. Think how much easier Rand's tasks would be if people fell in line behind him instead of opposing Rand at every turn.

716. Gentleman Farmer
@693 Man-o-Manetheren

Re Speculation on what Aviendha will find in Rhuidean.

That's a neat thought. I hadn't considered it before, but I think Aviendha will be the first person to go through the glass columns knowing fully what to expect.

She'll know she is seeing through the eyes of her ancestors, will see the water sharing and will see when the Aiel were sworn to peace.

She also knows of the bleakness, how some of the Aiel have fled to the Tuatha'an and what being Gai'shain really means.

I wonder if she'll see something in the columns that Rand, and her predecessors who were too shocked by their first revelation of what it means to be Aiel, might never have seen before (like the Song?)
Sam Mickel
717. Samadai
Tektonica @714,

I agree, they are very powerful and moving when read together. I have re-read them several times together and each time I can "see" something new and different. As Ishamael is about to cure Lews Therin of his insanity, how the light dimmed as if a shadow had crossed the sun. Until it started happening to Rand, I had never thought about it being anything but a link to the Dark One. It wasn't until I reread "dragonmount" after tGS that I connected it to being the "True Power".

I also have come to believe that some of the way Rand has been acting has been "leaked" over from Moridin. What I mean from that is, "I think" that while it was Rand that pulled the power and balefired Semi and Elsa, I think it was the Moridin bleed through that did it.(not saying that Moridin controlled it, just that Moridins POV did it.) I believe that Rand has turned the tide, and that the "bleed through" will reverse itself and Moridin will start "rethinking" his let everything burn Philosophy. I believe that is the true meaning of the "No man may stand long enough in the shadow and not come out of it" phrase. Not that I believe Moridin will become the good guy, just that he will realize there is some worth in letting the Wheel turn.
John Massey
718. subwoofer
I personally never made the connection of the True Power. Mind you, what the DO giveth, the DO taketh away. Thus curing LTT of insanity. Maybe that is the first link of the DO to the Dragon. Using the True Power on the Dragon gave the Dragon access to it. Thus Rand being able to tap something he doesn't really know about. Something on the edge of his consciousness.

One thing that really grumps me out about these revelations or trips and stuff through glass towers and door frames etc, is that Loial is never there. The guy would be handy, imagine, taking notes of pivotal events as they happened. Chronicling events as they unfold instead of a bunch of "he said, she said" or even keeping said events to themselves and not sharing pertinent details with everyone else. This is classic Wedding Singer stuff here. WoT is full of it, things that could have been brought to light from day one, saving a lot of grief and aggravation.

Just sayin'.

Sam Mickel
719. Samadai

If that happened then what would we have to talk about. He would have finished the series in 5 or 6 books and we wouldn't have this excellent place, with all these great people to discuss the WoT.
John Massey
720. subwoofer
Yes, I know, crazy talk. This actually being a trilogy or some junk. What was I thinking? headsmack!

OTOH I could have lived with even a 5-6 book series. Like on another thread today... some people like the filler, some folks want to get straight to the action. No one is right or wrong, just different views and preferences.

Tricia Irish
721. Tektonica
Sub, Sam: Good points all. I'm so glad you suggested reading these two passages side by side, Sam. Go buy a paperback, Sub, and mark it all up! Get a slip cover for it, so your wife doesn't flip.

Good point about the TP in the Prologue. I do hope there's some backdraft from Rand to Mori that allows Mori enough hope for the future that he at least doesn't try to destroy the Wheel. And Sub, you might be right about Rand using the TP from that old memory of Ishy healing him in the Prologue. Interesting.

One more little thought:

In book one, Tam says to Bran Al'Vere something about Rand being as fine and steady a boy as you could ever want. The whole scene with Tam and Rand coming into town at the beginning of tEotW shows such a nice bond between the two. Contrast that with what Tam sees when SWMNBN sends him in with a script to talk "sense" into Rand in tGS. You can sure see why Tam is so angry and upset.

On a bit of a personal note:
I just figured out why this is moving me so much at this point in time, besides the Darkening of Rand in tGS......Remember when you were younger, and not cynical, and things were good and bad, black and white, and you were safe, and your parents knew all that was important to know? That was Rand , et al. in Book One.

It's also much of what I see happening with my own son, now 19, Rand's age, in his second year away at college..... Government isn't run the ideal way it does in the textbooks, politicians lie and line their own pockets and don't think about "the good of the country", business is mostly interested in taking your money, people don't always believe you when you say something, because they don't know your history, your background, your values. The world is getting gray, eyes are being opened, the blinders are off. The world is becoming the teacher. It's the growing up process!

It's kind of sad to see reality rearing it's ugly head. I just hope, that like Rand's new revelation on Dragonmount, the core, the innate person that is fine and steady will remain.
Ron Garrison
722. Man-0-Manetheran
Gentleman Farmer @ 716
”I wonder if she'll see something in the columns that Rand, and her predecessors who were too shocked by their first revelation of what it means to be Aiel, might never have seen before (like the Song?) “

Sounds like me and probably many others who missed it on the first and second times through! There is supposedly This Big Clue that our authors were surprised that we all missed. So, BWS sends Avienda back for a re-read in hopes we might get it this time. Now that would be funny.

Samadai @ 717
”I believe that Rand has turned the tide, and that the 'bleed through' will reverse itself and Moridin will start "rethinking" his let everything burn Philosophy. I believe that is the true meaning of the ‘No man may stand long enough in the shadow and not come out of it’ phrase.”

I’ve been feeling like there are hints of that in several places. We know that DO’s goal is not to kill the Dragon, but to turn him to the dark side. The forsaken were lured with promises of power and immortality. Moridin is no dunce. He knows that if the DO wins, all will be obliterated - and if you think about it - that would mean him too! Perhaps the Light side is starting to appeal. It sure beats an eternity of what he lives now...

True Power
I was poking about in KoD, Chapter 27. This is the Semirhage as Tuon chapter. Read the description of Rand’s aftershock from Semi tossing the fireball. The dark spots before his eyes - do you think she might have grabbed some of the True Power for that fireball?
723. nor3
RE Moridin : "I do hope there's some backdraft from Rand to Mori that allows Mori enough hope for the future that he at least doesn't try to destroy the Wheel."

I doubt Mori will suddenly come to the light, and frankly, I hope he doesn't.

He knows full well what a Dark One victory means : utter oblivion, complete destruction of the Wheel. I believe he says something along the lines of "None of the other forsaken truely understand what will happen when the DO wins". He has known this for some time, and is still working towards this end. When we saw him in tGS, he seems very fatalistic, almost waiting for the Wheel to end. Chances of him suddenly saying, "you know what, maybe I had it wrong all along". Doesn't suit the character, his motives, his hisory, anything.

More than that, for him to make a complete turnabout is just a cop out. I really hate when the bad guy decides to let the captives go/turn off the death ray/throw the emperor down the conveniently placed big hole, just because of a "moving" speech by the good guys (and I use the term "moving" rather loosely). Absolute cop out on behalf of the writer, not only unsatisfying, but unrealistic too.
Sam Mickel
724. Samadai
I didn't say that Moridin would come to the light, nor was it meant to be inferred. What I said was the flow of "emotions" stops flowing from Moridin to Rand and starts flowing backwards from Rand to Moridin. As for a cop out, RJ has foreshadowed the whole "interchange" of "Beings" since at least Crown of Swords. So this is no out of the blue, last minute bad guy saves the day.

I didn't even say that Moridin would become the good guy. Only that his feelings about everything(the wheel, time) ending would be affected by Rands backflow of "feelings."

If this is indeed the "Final Battle", then perhaps team light can win by converting the Dark Ones "champion." Again I don't mean making him a good guy, I mean Ishadin deciding that having the Wheel continuing to turn is not a bad thing after all.
Tricia Irish
725. Tektonica

Ditto what Sam said@724. Not turn to the light, just vote to continue the Game.
726. nor3
@Samadai 724

"Again I don't mean making him a good guy, I mean Ishadin deciding that having the Wheel continuing to turn is not a bad thing after all. "


If he wants to keep the Wheel turning, then by definition, he must be against the Dark One. But he's not a good guy....?

Care to elaborate? Because I honestly don't understand how Moridin can be a bad guy while fighting to keep the DO imprisoned. Unless you mean "evil, but still fighting the DO", kinda like the whitecloaks? But that's still on the light side, in terms of the Last Battle.

"I didn't say that Moridin would come to the light, nor was it meant to be inferred"

Sorry for misinterpreting what you have to say, but as I said above, I honestly don't understand your point. And either way, Man-o-Manetheren said "Perhaps the Light side is starting to appeal", so it seems that at least someone thinks Moridin might turn to the light (unless I've misunderstood that comment too, in which case, sorry!)

" As for a cop out, RJ has foreshadowed the whole "interchange" of "Beings" since at least Crown of Swords."

Still feels like a cop out though. Just cause it's been foreshadowed doesn't mean it should happen. Granted, the foreshadowing kinda lessens the blow (unlike in other things, where the character turnabout is completely out of the blue), but still, Moridin has been working towards this end for over 3,000 years, knowing full well what a victory means, and now he's gonna change his tune? Does not sit well with me, even allowing for the ''interchange of beings''.
Ron Garrison
727. Man-0-Manetheran
"Perhaps the Light side is starting to appeal." If you read that exactly as written, it does not say that he becomes a good guy. I think he might start (is?) having doubts. Still motivated by selfishness, he might think his chances are better with the "winning side." - not seeking the Light, but betraying the Dark. Nor does it necessarily mean that he will make it. I kind of like him hesitating at a critical moment of battle and Rand strikes a powerful but not fatal blow. The DO then strikes down Moridin for his failure.
Sam Mickel
728. Samadai

Moridin is the only forsaken who wants the wheel to stop turning and time to die. The rest of the forsaken expect to rule forever in a Dark One powered world. Moridin "knows" that if the dark one wins, time and the wheel cease to exist, the rest of the forsaken expect eternal life and rewards. So this is what I mean by not coming to the light. If the light wins and the wheel keeps turning then the Dark One can keep plotting taking over time, The Light and Dark champions can keep being reborn to fight.
I even posit this, Ishadins feelings are neither good nor evil,(as he doesn't care), his belief is non-belief. not that he doesn't believe in the creator or the darkone only that he wants everything to end.
edit for: I don't mean that Ishadin is not evil.
729. nor3
Still not really sure what you mean. Maybe I'm just being dense.

If the Dark One breaks free, the Wheel stops. So, by definiton, to keep the Wheel turning, Moridin has to fight to keep the DO imprisoned (or, at the very least, not stop the people who are doing so). And surely the DO wont keep Ishy as his "champion" after Ishy betrays him at the critical moment. Look at Asmodean - the reason he became Rand's montor was the DO thought Asmo had betrayed him, so Asmo had to fully dedicate himself to Rand's cause because the DO would never take him back. Same with Ishydin. Either he fights to destroy the Wheel, or he abandons the Dark side altogether. There's no middle ground.
Rob Munnelly
730. RobMRobM
Misc news:

1. Latest from Brandon's twitter account:

"12 more chapters to go in current TofM revision. It's going very well. I hope to have this section in Harriet's hands by Jordancon." Cool.

2. Rand Al'Thor won his first round cage match at (yeah!) and is favored by the website to win his second round match (against Conan the Barbarian). The write up is amusing....

3. Linda at 13th D has begun her re-read of Winter's Heart with a good article on the Tower Black Ajah hunters. I am a fan of her work, if you couldn't tell.


p.s. We've had torrential rains in Boston area for three days - schools in many towns are closed due to flooding. Ugh.
Sam Mickel
731. Samadai

maybe look at it this way, the rest of the Forsaken expect to live forever serving the Dark One. The wheel is broken but time still moves. Moridin expects oblivion at the end, so nothing exists besides the Dark One and the Creator. Moridin is inhuman in his desire to see everything "end". The rest of the forsaken are human in their "greed" to rule everything forever. If Moridin can get his (feelings, or humanity or whatever you want to call it) back, then he would still be evil, but would no longer desire for everything to end.

I am sorry if I am not explaining this well.
Rob Munnelly
732. RobMRobM
More website stuff - Dragonmount's posting of some Maria and Find Out questions referred by Brandon during the TGS tour. There is also a separate follow up where Maria makes clear that Alanna almost certainly can't be BA.


So I emailed Maria Simmons about the MAFO's and she was kind enough to get back to me. So here they are.

MAFO #1 - At the darkfriend social, Carridin is given orders by Ishamael that he can’t remember. Later on in Ebou Dar, he sees Mat out the window and he sort of goes into a trance, sees more imagery, and when he snaps out of it, time is stopped and Sammael is in the room. How did this happen? Was Sammael paged somehow when Carridin’s orders were triggered?

Maria's Answer #1 - No, Sammael was not paged. Sammael had sent Carridin to Ebou Dar to find the cache of Power goodies. The notes say that Sammael became aware that there were other parties engaged in the same search, and decided that he had to light a fire under Carridin. Also note Sammael’s reaction to the news that Mat is in Ebou Dar --“‘Here?” Oddly, for a moment, Sammael seemed taken aback”. It seems to accentuate that Sammael is surprised; if he had been paged, it seems that his answer would have been different.

MAFO #2 - Does Elayne know that Alanna bonded Rand?

Maria's Answer #2 - From Winter’s Heart, chapter 12, Rand speaking to Elayne, Aviendha, and Min: “Anyway, Alanna Mosvani got there ahead of you, and she didn’t bother asking . . . I’ve been bonded to her for months now.”

MAFO #3 - Did Graendal use compulsion on Ituralde when they met previously in LOC? Is it still there?

Maria's Answer #3 - RAFO.

MAFO #4 - Was Ishamael partially, or was he responsible for the initiation of the three oaths. Was he a part of what brought them about?

Maria's Answer #4 - No. What is now the second oath (To make no weapon with which one man may kill another) was the first one that the Aes Sedai adopted. “It grew from an impulse within the Aes Sedai themselves coming from tales passed down regarding the War of the Shadow. The other two oaths certainly grew out of the suspicion of ordinary people towards these Aes Sedai.” (That’s a quote from the notes, btw). Sometimes things happen without an agent of the Dark One’s involvement, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

MAFO #5 - About Gawyn's duel with Sleete, and the usage of real swords, said she would have to look into that, since I had believed that normally practice swords are used. She said that perhaps sometimes they have to use real swords to keep their edge, so to speak, but will look into that.

Maria's Answer #5 - With novice swordsmen, the practice sword is very good because they can swing away with abandon and be swung at and at worse get a bruise. But there comes a time when a person must practice with a real sword, and not just shadow fencing. How does a sword feel when it hits another sword? How quickly can you come back from that? Practice with the weapon you are going to use in real combat is necessary. This is especially true if you are with an army in the field; you’re not playing at keeping in shape, you’re trying to make sure that you are at your absolute top form to keep from being killed when you come up against someone else with a pointy blade. These Warders are very, very good; they trust themselves to fight with real swords without damaging each other.

So, often they practiced with practice swords, but sometimes they practiced with real swords. There is a type of practice with real swords in the books. We see it in New Spring: the Novel, where Bukama “took the other two a little distance away with talk of some game called “sevens.” A strange game it seemed to be, and more than dangerous in the failing daylight. Lan and Ryne sat cross-legged facing one another, their swords sheathed, then without warning drew, each blade flashing toward the other man’s throat, stopping just short of flesh. The older man pointed to Ryne, they sheathed swords, and then did it again. For as long as she watched, that was how it went. Perhaps Ryne had not been so over-confident as he seemed.”

It’s not the same as when Gawyn faced Sleete and Marlesh, but it is experienced swordsmen practicing with real swords.

MAFO #6 - Did Robert Jordan leave a power to time comparison, as to how much time is burned back on a thread using balefire. Is there a calculation that says x amount of power will burn back x amount of time on a thread?

Maria's Answer #6 - RAFO. Sorry, but we are doing an encyclopedia, and I have to reserve some things in case we want to put them in there.

MAFO #7 - If you were burned out and then transmigrated, would you still be burned out? answered that was pretty sure that it was a yes, but that we should feel free to MAFO].

Maria's Answer # 7 - Yes, you would. Jim said that “neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.” (DragonCon), but transmigration is not really a different lifetime; more than just the soul moves. The new person (I’m at a loss for words here) also has the memories of the previous person, and its personality, and such. So Brandon is correct.

MAFO #8 -

Matt: Ok…which brings up the following questions about the Wheel and its relationship to souls, talents, abilities and channeling. Is the Wheel responsible for giving or weaving in Talents and Abilities to a particular life, or are they like channeling, attached to the soul?

Brandon: That’s an excellent question. I’m going to have to RAFO that…it’s actually more of a MAFO. What’s your asking is would someone who is reborn into the Pattern will have the same talents again?

Matt: Right. Or does…the Wheel, we obviously know it is very capable of affecting the Pattern, so the question is does it give and take when it comes to abilities and talents it needs?

Brandon: Yeah, right, I will have to MAFO that.

Matt: Ok, so can the Wheel give an individual life the ability to channel, if the soul does not come to that life with an inborn ability to learn or a spark? Can the Wheel give them that?

Brandon: Again, I will have to MAFO this whole thing. I will have to go and look. I don’t know if someone is necessarily always born with the ability to channel, if they are in every Age...

Matt: ...there is a quote I brought that we asked at DragonCon, Jordan said: “I don’t think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without….” So, in essence he said it’s inherent you have the ability. Whether or not you Spark or you can learn it that depends on the life.

Brandon: My instinct knowing how Jim wrote and knowing the parallels in the notes would be that he would parallel the other talents along the same lines. A wolf brother then would always have the ability to become a wolf brother and other things along those lines. I’m going off of instinct so that is an asterisked answer. I can MAFO that and look it up and we can see what we can find, but he did like to parallel a lot of these things...

Maria's Answer #8 - Jim says of Talents: “A Talent is a special ability with the One Power. While the name is used for other things, a Talent is, in truth, something which is inborn in the person and not something that can be learned.” And there is mention of the Wheel throwing out what it needs on occasion, and there’s the phrase, “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.” The Wheel can give and take as it needs.

I believe that the potential for a Talent is there, but it doesn't necessarily manifest each time a soul is born. If the Wheel needs the Talent, the Talent is there. But if the Wheel doesn't need it, it lies dormant.
734. Freelancer

I doubt that being subjected to a weave of the True Power would in any way produce a path of access for LTT. I have a weaker doubt that even had LTT gained access to the True Power, that Rand would retain said access. Still, an interesting conjecture.


Forgive me picking nits again. I understand what you are getting at regarding us and TBC, but Aviendha isn't being sent back for a re-read. A woman's second trip to Rhuidean is to the Ancestitron, the crystal spires. Her first trip was to the silver arch-rings. One shows your future over and over with many possible twists and turns, the other presents the history of the Aiel through the eyes of ones ancestors. It is true that she will be the first person ever to enter that ter'angreal with awareness of what will be happening, and will therefore be watching for details which will help Rand. Because as Aiel as she is, there is no doubt now that her first allegiance is to the Car'a'carn himself, ahead of clan and sept.

RE: Semirhage and the True Power. No, when you get half-blinded by a fireball, you're going to see spots. Nobody but Moridin has {(|EXPLICIT|)} permission to use the True Power.


Others have beat up on you enough about this post, I'm taking a different tack. You do realize that Darth Vader had previously offered to Luke that together they could defeat the Emperor? It wasn't that out of the blue. As for unrealistic or unsatisfying, we're talking Star Wars here. Jules Verne it is not.


Thanks for the MAFO answers. I suspect you're trying for the title of Most Verbose Commentor with these things. But massive quotes don't count, that rule was determined long ago.

Speaking of which, has Birgit done a final Top 50 for the Spoiler Thread, including Parts Uno and The Second? I'm sure she'll have fun with that.


Ok, who are you and what have you done with the true Wetlandernw? She is as likely as me to post a 4 word comment. ::whistle::
Tricia Irish
735. Tektonica

Thanks for all the MAFO's....lot's of typing too!

And thanks for Suvudu....very funny commentary. When are the semi's?
Ron Garrison
736. Man-0-Manetheran
re-read: ‘Twas a joke - mostly. But, I meant it as a “re-read” for us in a figurative way.

saa: Yes, certainly one would see spots. But IIRC, even though she doesn’t have explicit permission doesn’t mean she can’t draw it without permission. And a cigar is sometimes just a cigar. (One re-read a week leads to much nonsense, it seems.)
Thomas Keith
737. insectoid
Lurking about...

RobM² @732: Nice Wall o' Maria! ;)

Free @734: Re: Top 50... Yes, indeed, @54 on this thread.

Michael Maxwell
738. pike747
@717. Samadai

Not that I believe Moridin will become the good guy, just that he will realize there is some worth in letting the Wheel turn.

Very succinctly put and I agree.
John Massey
739. subwoofer
Free, feels like we are on the same page here...

Wait a tick- did I say what I think-? Ah, now, lemme explain my thing about Rand's access to the True Power. Now back in the day, LTT went bonkers because he was at ground zero when the DO decided, "if I'm going out, I'm taking a few with me". Powerful logic. Men went all trippy and stuff, and the bottom line was that the Dragon, most powerful channeler in the world, should have checked into the special hotel with the padded walls and the nice people giving out special pills... er treats. Anyways Ishy cottons onto this and is royally honked as LTT did a little bit of pruning of the family tree, unsolicited.

So along Ishy comes and taps into his DO mojo and pwang, gone the insanity. The craziness, IMHO was a link to the DO. The taint is the slime the DO is, unfiltered. The links the forsaken have, at least the male ones, contain the filter. When tapping into the True Power, there is also and immediate link to the DO. After all you need the DO's permission to use the special sauce. Can't do it by proxy. So when Ishy did what he did, he did not restore LTT back to what he was before the crayon on the wall time, he put a filter from the DO.

I have suggested several times when folks have asked, what did you want SWSNBN to do with False Dragons? I answered simply- "cure them". Apparently this is beyond any lady folk wielding the Source. Even though Nynaeve claims that anything short of death can be healed... and has so far proved just that... But I digress. So what is in the special sauce that allows the crazies to go away? I don't think it was anything special- and why would the DO allow his greatest enemy to be restored? How would the DO know that LTT would go mad, again, from grief. I don't think Ishy saw Dragonmount coming.

Bottom line IMHO, the DO wanted to put a line on his greatest threat. To bring him over to the other side by taunting him with the forbidden fruit- the True Power. Sweet stuff, with a killer price. LTT was at his most vulnerable, there was no better chance than that. And by putting a link to the True Power on the OG Dragon, all subsequent incarnations of Dragon's Reborn would have it too. Unsuspecting- until certain events, certain circumstances, came about forcing such passion, that the Dragon would cross that line, and open that tap.

I think Rand's biggest challenge in the next book is going to be shutting that tap off. Something that is as intoxicating as the CK. No Access Key required. Yikes. Could have disaster written all over it, laughing on a mountaintop aside.

I wonder if Rand starts seeing black threads again, will he see one on himself now?

Of course, what do I know? Prior to Lent, I habitually put beer on my cereal:P

John Massey
740. subwoofer
And... because I have no sense of humor I am throwing this out there for all our folks who may be thinking of April 1 just around the corner.

Marcus W
741. toryx
nor3 @ 723:

I doubt Mori will suddenly come to the light, and frankly, I hope he doesn't.

I agree. I wouldn't put it past RJ and Sanderson to go and have Moridin return to the light but I find it fairly improbable.

Moridin is tired. He's been around long enough to pretty much figure it all out. He knows that the battle comes and goes again and again, that the Wheel spins for all eternity offering nothing much more than the promise of an unending struggle. He wants the story to end and to have his part in it finished. The only way that can happen is to see the Wheel broken and even if it's at the cost of his life or soul, he doesn't care. He's had it with the game.