Feb 12 2010 4:03pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: A Crown of Swords, Part 12

Good morning! Or afternoon! Or whatever! It doesn’t matter, because it is a glorious discrete chunk of the diurnal cycle regardless, and I have a Wheel of Time Re-read for you!

What, I’m a little chipper? A little glowy? I can’t imagine why. Nothing particularly special happened this week. That I can think of. You must be imagining things. You so silly.

But, you are not imagining that I will be covering Chapters 19-20 of A Crown of Swords, because I totally am. Covering them. Covering them in GLORY.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of yummy tidbits regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

Don’t mind me, nothing to see here. Move along!

Chapter 19: Diamonds and Stars


What Happens
Merana and Annoura follow Cadsuane silently, while Merana tries to convince herself she is not intimidated by the woman, whom she met only met once as a novice.

Once Cadsuane Melaidhrin had been the standard by which every new entry into the novice books was judged. Until Elayne Trakand, none had come to the White Tower in her lifetime who could match that standard, much less surpass it. In more ways than one, her like had not walked among Aes Sedai for a thousand years. […] She would end a legend among Aes Sedai. If she was not already.

She had retired several times, but always reappeared when something major happened in the world. Merana tells herself to stop babbling Cadsuane legends to herself like a novice. They pass two Wise Ones in the hall (Edarra and Leyn), who stare at the sisters coldly, and Merana realizes that she will have to be the one to explain the “compromise” she and the other sisters sworn to “young al’Thor” had worked out with the Wise Ones. She thinks it was the best they could have hoped for under the circumstances, but strongly doubts Cadusane will agree. She tries to convince herself it was ta’veren swirling that had caused her to babble what she had to al’Thor, rather than fear of him, but thinks that either way he had all the advantages now. Merana is surprised that Cadsuane leads them to the small room Bera and Kiruna are sharing in the Palace, where they are met by a very low-ranking White sister named Daigian, who immediately goes to serve tea. Cadsuane supposes that Merana’s presence means the tales about al’Thor submitting to Elaida are false, scoffing at Merana’s surprise that Cadsuane knows about her “associations” (which Cadsuane makes sound like a bad word). When questioned in turn, Annoura explains that she is only here to advise Berelain, and has made no decision about the rest of the situation.

“A wise decision, that,” Cadsuane murmured, with a pointed look at Merana. “It seems that in the last few years far too many sisters have forgotten they possess brains, or discretion. There was a time when Aes Sedai reached their decisions after calm deliberation, with the good of the Tower always in the front of their thoughts. Just remember what the Sanche girl got from meddling with al’Thor, Annoura. Walk too near a forge-fire, and you can be burned badly.”

Merana asks, far too diffidently, what Cadsuane’s intentions are regarding Rand, and adds awkwardly that she had been “rather undiplomatic” with him; Annoura puts in that Cadsuane might as well have slapped him.

“If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn’t expect. There’s good metal in that boy, I think, but he’s going to be difficult.” Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. “He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance . . . Phaw! Al’Thor’s not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear.” Hearing those three names together clove Merana’s tongue to the roof of her mouth.

Annoura says that she’s heard Taim is following al’Thor, and Merana is relieved that tales of Dumai’s Wells evidently haven’t gotten around yet; Cadsuane is irritated that all her work is undone on that score, and reminisces about the fun she’d had chasing down both Logain and Taim for a moment, before suddenly breaking off to ask them if they’d had anything to do with “that vileness” after the Aiel War. Merana has no idea what she’s talking about, and Annoura seems just as confused, but Cadsuane does not explain. Then Corele Hovian (Yellow) enters, herding Bera and Kiruna; the latter’s eyes bulge when they see Cadsuane.

“I thought you were dead,” Bera breathed.

Cadsuane sniffed irritably. “I am growing tired of hearing that. The next imbecile I hear it from is going to yelp for a week.” Annoura began studying the toes of her slippers.

Corele relates with great amusement that she had found Bera and Kiruna sitting “meek as mice” with a bunch of Aiel wilders, who told Corele that she would have to wait to have them until Sorilea (“a harridan to give you nightmares, she is”) was done talking with her “apprentices.” Bera and Kiruna go beet-red, and Merana is tremendously relieved that now she would not have to be the one to explain anything. Cadsuane comments that she’d expected the situation to be bad, but not “a bucket from the midden.” But, she supposes, after rebelling against a lawful Amyrlin, what’s one more treason more or less? Bera begins to protest about the “lawful Amyrlin” part, but Cadsuane interrupts to say that Elaida may be a disaster waiting to happen, but she is still the Amyrlin. Bera asks why Cadsuane hasn’t obeyed the summons to return to the Tower, then; Cadsuane chuckles and comments that at least one of them has some backbone. Then she proceeds to interrogate them all relentlessly.

What Cadsuane thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al’Thor, and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

Merana is relieved they manage to keep some things back; she knows al’Thor will be furious when he finds out Kiruna had let slip about the kidnapping, but at least they had not told about his treatment during his captivity, as he had made it clear how displeased he would be if that came out. Merana feels sick. She and the others had argued at length about what exactly their oath to al’Thor meant; in the end even Kiruna had agreed that it meant they must defend and support al’Thor as well as obey him, but Merana wonders if Bera and Kiruna have realized that their decision might now pitch them against a living legend. She’s sure Cadsuane knows it perfectly well.

Min hurries through the Palace, ignoring greetings from Maidens and trying not to cry. Outside Rand’s apartments, Riallin warns Min that he is in a foul temper, but does not stop her from entering. Inside, Min is aghast at the wreckage of the room; Rand is in a chair with his head flung back, staring at the ceiling, but Min cannot make herself be afraid of him.

She had long since reconciled herself to being hopelessly in love. Nothing else mattered, not that he was an unsophisticated countryman, younger than she, not who or what he was, not that he was doomed to go mad and die if he was not killed first. I don’t even mind having to share him, she thought, and knew how tightly she was caught if she could lie to herself.

She is sure he is in love with her too (and Elayne and Aviendha too, she tries not to think), but he would try to send her away if he found out she loved him. She wonders if he really believes that just because Lews Therin killed those he loved, that he is fated to do the same. Rand suddenly says he’s glad she’s there, and tells her Herid Fel is dead, torn limb from limb; he wishes he knew what Herid could have told him that warranted his death like that. Min is shocked and grieved by the news, thinking what a sweet old man Herid had been, but tries to think of what it could be that he was killed for. Rand apologizes for telling her like that, and brushes tears from her cheek; Min flings her arms around him, sobbing, and tells him how she had gone to Colavaere’s apartments, hoping to find some way to avert her viewing, and found Colavaere hanging from her bedpost. Rand hugs her back, and wishes he could take some of her pain away, and Min mumbles for him to kiss her. Rand is startled, and she tells him she is not teasing this time.

“I’m cold inside, sheepherder. Colavaere, and Master Fel . . . I need to feel warm flesh. I need . . . Please?”

His head lowered so slowly. It was a brother’s kiss, at first, mild as milk-water, soothing, comforting. Then it became something else. Not at all soothing. Jerking upright, he tried to pull away. “Min, I can’t. I have no right—”

Seizing two handfuls of his hair, she pulled his mouth back down, and after a little while, he stopped fighting. She was not certain whether her hands began tearing at the laces of his shirt first or his at hers, but of one thing she was absolutely sure. If he even tried to stop now, she was going to fetch one of Riallin’s spears, all of them, and stab him.

Cadsuane studies the Aiel wilders as she leaves the Palace; she thinks she’s seen Aes Sedai regarded with awe, hate, adoration, or fear, but she’s never seen contempt before. She dismisses the Aiel, though, to concentrate on al’Thor.

The al’Thor boy needed to be kept intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, and off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or suppressed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing.

She says to Corele and Daigian that she may skin Elaida for making her task near impossible, but then laughs and remembers that the one thing guaranteed to spark her interest was to tell her something was impossible to accomplish, maybe because so few things were.

Any day now might be her last, but young al’Thor would be a fitting end to it all.

Hokay, I’ll get to freakin’ Cadsuane in a second. Min and Rand first! And I say:

Yay, the sexing!

Seriously: yay. Not only do I think Min deserves major snugglies for the crap she’s been through, I am also wildly in favor of anything that serves as a pressure valve for Mr. Could Blow At Any Moment.

Um. So to speak.


So, loved loved loved this bit. Not least because, in my opinion, this scene between Rand and Min is probably the most romantically effective (or is that effectively romantic?) “sex” scene in all of WOT. (Out of all, what, four of them in twelve books, but hey.) I won’t lie, I got all girly and “Le sigh” for a second there—and still do, every time I read the scene. I don’t know, it just works for me. Aw.

Also, MAJOR foreshadowing here, in Min’s thoughts about Rand and Lews Therin and killing the ones they love, of the scene that almost gave me a heart attack in TGS. You know which one I mean. Which is… impressive. It’s like someone had a Plan!

Oh, and also, bye, Colavaere! At least I don’t have to remember how to spell your name anymore!

(That had to have really majorly sucked, though, for Min to see that, even if she hadn’t predicted it first. It’s not like when you see hanged people on TV, you guys; that shit is nasty in real life. Or, whatever. Snugglies are the least the plot could do for her after that, if you ask me.)

Herid Fel: What he would have told Rand (aka What The Bloody Hell Does That Damn Note Mean Already) is what I predict will be one of the very last WOT Mysteries to be cleared up in the series, if not the last. I trust my reasoning on this is fairly obvious.

As to what I think the answer actually is, well. I think it’s pretty much a given at this point (especially after TGS) that “clearing the rubble” refers to removing the seals presently patching the Dark One’s prison, so that’s all right, but (as Rand himself quite rightly points out) knowing that is worth exactly jack if you don’t have any idea what to do next.

So, it’s all about the “belief and order give strength” hoohah. And… yeah, I dunno. Several people (here and elsewhere) have suggested that the line refers to women and men finally working together to wield the One Power, balance to the Force, yin and yang, ebony and ivory, live together in perfect harmony, yadda.

And I say, sure, why not. I still don’t see how that clears up what they’re actually supposed to DO with this mystic bout of Kumbaya, but sure, symbolically it works.

Do I seem blasé? Well, I am, but it’s only because I am so cool, man.

Or not. No, really, it’s just that since this seems to be the bit that concerns the ultimate pivot point of the entire plot of the series—like, this is what it’s all ABOUT, maaaan—I’m actually not all that interested in figuring it out ahead of time.

I’d prefer to find it out when, you know, it actually happens. I know, I’m just a nut over here.

Aaaand now I guess I have to talk about Cadsuane. *grumble*

Of course, the issue of her motivations and/or strategic savvy and/or coolness as a character have already been quite efficiently discussed to death in the comments to the previous entry, with many a cogent and persuasive argument put forth on both the pro- and anti-Cadsuane front, to the point where I feel rather superfluous to the issue.

I would pout about this, but frankly, the less time I have to spend talking about Cadsuane the happier a camper I’ll be. So let me sum up by saying that I can totally see where the pro-Cads folk are coming from and totally agree with the reasoning on why she is the way she is and even agree that her strategy re: Rand is not completely insane when looked at the right way—I can do all that, and not have the fact that I haaaaaaaaaaaaate her change one tiny little bit.

Sorry, guys. Everyone has their irrational prejudices re: character likes and dislikes, and Cadsuane is one of mine. I freely admit it. She is nails on the chalkboard of my soul, whether she deserves to be or not, and that’s about the size of it.

Oh, and when I read Merana’s theory here that Cads was only upset about Alanna forcibly bonding Rand because she was thinking of doing it first?


That? Did not help.


Though, I suppose it’s arguable whether Cadsuane would really have done it without asking first, but since I don’t see any POSSIBLE way she could have convinced Rand to agree to it without doing it by ambush (I mean, come ON), well. Perhaps I am underestimating her powers of persuasion, but given the next few books, I tend to doubt it.

Either way, the whole notion rates at least five Crispin Glovers on my Scale O’ Skeeve. I mean, can you imagine being psychically bound to that? I weep. And throw up a little in my mouth.


I will attempt to discuss Cadsuane more rationally in the future, I promise. I won’t promise to succeed, but I promise to try.


Chapter 20: Patterns Within Patterns

What Happens
Sevanna sits with her inner circle of Shaido Wise Ones, and comments that either the Car’a’carn is not pursuing them, or he can’t find them, and either one works. She notes with contempt how poorly the others hide their fear at the mention of him; she thinks there is reason to be afraid, but no reason to show it. Rhiale mutters that they should get on with it, and Sevanna takes out the gray cube the wetlander Caddar had given her and explains how it is to be activated with Fire to summon Caddar. The Wise Ones dither, but in the end obey, and some react with disgust when they realize the cube is drawing saidin as well as saidar once it is activated. Modarra wonders what will happen if they try Fire somewhere else.

“Power the callbox too much or in the wrong way, and it may melt,” a man’s voice said out of the air. “It could even ex—”

The voice is cut off as the Wise Ones jump up, searching for the voice, and Sevanna irritably orders them to sit down and start channeling again. They do, and Caddar’s voice asks if she has al’Thor. Sevanna is warned by his tone, and discards the lie she’d prepared, answering honestly that she does not, but still needs to meet with Caddar. Caddar congratulates her dryly for not lying, calling her “girl”, and tells her to hold the line until he comes to her. Sevanna is incensed at this disrespect, but commands the Wise Ones to keep channeling into the device. The Wise Ones don’t like this, and argue about the situation until two wetlanders, a man and a woman, emerge (noisily, by Aiel standards) from the forest. Sevanna recognizes Caddar, and Someryn whispers to her that his companion can channel very strongly, in a way which makes Sevanna suspect the woman is considerably stronger than Someryn herself.

Right then, she did not care whether the woman could move mountains or barely light a candle. She must be Aes Sedai. She did not have the face, yet some Sevanna had seen did not. That must be how Caddar could put his hand on ter’angreal. That was how he could find them and come. So soon; so quickly. Possibilities unfolded, and hope grew. But between him and her, who commanded?

She whispers back to Someryn to touch her leg if she senses the woman channeling, and invites Caddar “and his woman” to sit. Caddar introduces his companion as “Maisia,” which seems to infuriate her, but she says nothing. Sevanna asks if Caddar has the thing that will control Rand al’Thor. Caddar wants to know why, when she doesn’t have al’Thor in the first place, and Sevanna replies that she will; Caddar smiles, and answers that she will get it once she has secured al’Thor, then, as it will not help overcome him, only control him afterward. Sevanna asks if this thing will control Aes Sedai as well (which rivets the Wise Ones’ attention), but Caddar only replies, perhaps. One of the Wise Ones (Tion) flatly demands proof, and Caddar smiles tightly and orders Maisia to play with the callbox. The gray cube rises up and bounces about; Maisia says to Caddar that she thinks that’s quite sufficient, but the callbox keeps moving until Caddar tells her to stop. Maisia looks furious, and Sevanna tries not to appear too eager.

What worked on one woman with the gift would work on another. No need with Someryn and Modarra, perhaps, but Rhiale, and Therava . . . She could not appear too eager, not when the others knew there were no Aes Sedai captives.

Caddar tells her it will take time to procure, though. Sevanna asks if he can teach how they traveled so quickly to the meeting, and Caddar says the woman can’t do that, but he can obtain “traveling boxes” to take the Shaido to richer lands. Sevanna casually asks to know more.

The watcher slips through the forest, watching Graendal and Sammael leave the Aiel camp, and wonders if it was wise of Sammael to let the link between them dissolve.

The watcher followed and listened. They had no idea. The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who wielded it. Black flecks floated across his vision. There was a price, to be sure, one that grew with each use, but he had always been willing to pay the price when it was necessary. Being filled with the True Power was almost like kneeling beneath Shayol Ghul, basking in the Great Lord’s glory. The glory was worth the pain.

Sammael is marveling to Graendal that “the silly girl” had suggested herself exactly what he wanted, and Graendal points out that that silly girl will “cut out [his] heart and eat it” if she gets a chance. She mentions Sammael’s claim of a truce with al’Thor, puzzled by it in light of the conversation they’d just had, and the watcher thinks that claim was as risky as it was untrue. Sammael answers that he’d had nothing to with al’Thor’s kidnapping; Mesaana was definitely involved, and perhaps Demandred and Semirhage, “despite how it ended”, but not him. He suggests that perhaps Graendal ought to consider what exactly the Great Lord meant about leaving al’Thor “unharmed.” The watcher notes that Graendal is not flirting with him at all, and knows that it means Graendal considers Sammael to have been set above her, for the moment at least. Graendal demands to know what Sammael’s game is with the Aiel, and if he really intends to allow these savages to get hold of al’Thor; Sammael opens a gateway, and tells her small increases in chaos are as important as large, and “Maisia” will learn to be satisfied with what he gives her. Graendal tells him if he calls her that again, she will kill him.

Her voice held even less expression than her face. She meant it. The watcher tensed. If she tried, one of the two would die. Should he interfere? Black flecks sped across his eyes, faster, faster.

Sammael met her stare with one just as hard. “Remember who will be Nae’blis, Graendal,” he said, and stepped through his gateway.

Graendal almost leaves by her own gateway, but then follows Sammael, and the watcher grins to himself, thinking that claim was an even greater risk than the one about a truce – unless it were true, of course. He muses that the Great Lord delights in setting his servants against each other to see who was stronger. He considers killing the Aiel women in the clearing, but decides to leave them for now.

To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large.

Sevanna: Is annoying. And uses a cube. The End.

Okay, not really, but damn. A Cadsuane chapter back-to-back with a Sevanna chapter? That’s just cold, man. Why hast Jordan Forsaken me?

Yes, I know, that was awful, straight to punner’s hell I go, etc. But seriously. At least there was sexing in the middle. (Yay)

Although, at least on the Forsaken side of things there’s a lot more going on here than I initially noticed. On first reading, for example, I didn’t really analyze why Sammael had dragged Graendal to this little pow-wow; I just assumed that he was doing it to be a domineering jerk, more or less.

And of course he was being a domineering jerk, but that was just a bonus: the real purpose of having her there was to give Sevanna a plausible explanation of why a supposedly non-channeling man had access to Power objects and could do all the funky things he does. Not to mention, his little trick with linking with Graendal and making the box dance cemented his credentials re: really having something that could let a nonchanneler control channelers. Rather clever, really (she says, archly).

Of course, there is the fact that he really does have something that will let a nonchanneler control a channeler, which actually kind of ruins the cleverness, sort of. Maybe. Or, I’m short on sleep. The POINT is, none of this is terribly deep insight or anything, but I did not see it before and on reflection the chapter title is well chosen and yay layers.

“Chosen,” hah. Okay, okay! I’ll stop, I swear.

Then there is the infamous Watcher, who I swear created more confusion and illogical wild-theory-spinning than just about anything in WOT, with the notable exceptions of Asmodean and Taimandred, of course. But the Watcher/Wanderer thing is definitely up there, and there are people who are STILL to this day confused about this.

Let me help! I can point you to the FAQ entry explaining this, which is worth reading, but the short version is this:

Watcher = the guy we just saw in this chapter

Wanderer = the guy who sort-of helps Rand in Shadar Logoth at the end of this book

Both = Moridin.

The End. No, really. No, really. They are both Moridin, end of discussion.


Oh, and also, Moridin = Ishamael Reloaded. If you dispute this in the comments you will be Smote with the Wrath of Cluebat for being too dumb to live. Don’t be that guy. Really.

Not that it wasn’t meant to be confusing—it was—but at this stage of the game, come on, you guys. Release.

(Oh, and also also, the titles “Watcher” and “Wanderer” are straight from the text: Moridin is called a “watcher” here by the narration, and in Shadar Logoth he calls himself a “wanderer” when Rand asks who he is. This is another thing that seems to confuse the hell out of people, and I’ve never really understood why.)

(Oh, and also also also, “fancloth”, which I just realized I forgot to mention in the summary that the watcher is all wrapped up in = Warder cloak material, except presumably Moridin’s is weapons-grade quality. I don’t remember where I heard this but I’m pretty sure this was confirmed by Jordan at a signing or on his blog. I may have made up the weapons-grade part.)

And of course there’s the other fun stuff in here, like Sammael’s comment about who was and was not involved in Rand’s kidnapping, which has spawned a whole host of incestuous interlocking loony theories covering everything from Asmodean’s murderer to Demandred’s whereabouts to where they buried Jimmy Hoffa and who knows what the hell all.

For my money, this is pure red herring misdirection bullsheet from start to finish, and the only Forsaken involved in Rand’s kidnapping was the obvious choice—it was Mesaana, in the Tower, with the Black Ajah. This, however, I will brook argument on, because there is wriggle room here and the issues are admittedly still not definitively resolved.

The Watcher/Wanderer/Moridin/Ishamael thing, though, no. SILENCIO. Bzzt!

And on that stern and forbidding note, we out! Have a loverly weekend, and see you next week!

Ken Stankiewicz
1. Kenjs
Who dat writing this weeks commentary. Enjoy yourself to your heart's content.
Ron Garrison
2. Man-0-Manetheran

"...when the Saints go marchin' in!"
Yippee, yippee, yeah!
4. FellKnight
Personally, I kind of liked the Aviendha sexing scene the best. I remember the first time through the series I hadn't been hit by all the ClueBats about Aviendha's true feelings toward Rand, so when she grabbed him and kissed him, I was all like OHHH SHIT.


This is a close second. Elayne's "Thou shalt sleep with me." irked me no end.

Yay Min. That is all.

5. Gentleman Farmer
Well, in light of Leigh's comments I won't try to argue the watcher-wanderer-moridin-ishamael thing, besides which I think I pretty much always connected them.

However, the other comment in here that I thought was a red herring was the indecision by the Watcher on whether Sammael might in fact be Nae'blis. We know Moridin eventually is named Nae'blis, and is the only one authorized to use the TP. I guess it's conceivable he was only named Nae'blis after this point, but he still seems like the logical person to know whether or not the Dark One had named a Nae'blis.

I initially really enjoyed this chapter because I thought it was evidence that Sammael had the ability to make ter'angreal ala Elayne. Makes sense that some of the Forsaken would have that power, and his responses in terms of what could be made available sounded like someone who can make stuff.

I still sort of think he had that ability, and maybe made the Oath Rod he eventually gives Sevanna, but I was pretty disappointed when the nar'baha (fool boxes) turned out to be not even simple ter'angreal.
Marcus W
6. toryx
Oh my. Leigh, I must say, your comments to Chapter 19 made me laugh. A lot. Inside, of course, since I'm at work. But there was much inner laughter.

As usual, Chapter 19 proves to me that I'm absolutely right, not only about Cadsuane's character but also about her bad decision making. And naturally, those very same words will convince Cadsuane's LUV muffins that they are completely right. That's okay though.

I agree that the Rand and Min getting it on scene was probably the best of the bunch. Or, if it wasn't, definitely the one I liked the most. I just wish that Rand wasn't the Catholic schoolboy afterwards. It's a good thing that Min is so no-nonsense about the whole thing. Can you imagine what would have happened if it'd been Elayne? There'd have been letters. Lots of irritating, wishy-washy letters. And I would have to sigh in exasperation as I try not to throw the book across the room.

I also agree that the whole chapter with Sevanna and Sammael and Graendal was totally irritating and boring. The only thing I liked was the Watcher, and only because it was a new mystery (at the time of my first reading) and I'd figured it out on my very own. Correctly. Not that this is difficult to do.

I can't wait to see someone say with all earnestness that Moridin can't possibly be Ishamael, or some such similar nonsense. I will laugh and laugh and laugh.
Debbie Solomon
7. dsolo
You're right, Leigh, the sexing is the best part. I don't hate Cadsuane, so her chapters don't bother me so much, but Sevanna - Yikes!

Are the Aiel totally clueless about the Forsaken? Or is it just the Shaido? On the one hand, I'm glad Therava kept her "little Lini", but on the other hand, these people are like the idiot Aiel. They don't accept Rand because he's not Aiel, then they turn around and completely change Aiel customs.

Kind of interesting watching all the little power plays going on among the Forsaken, but it does make them seem less awesome. Of course, the kind of people who would turn to the Dark would not be selfless and noble. Unfortunately, the Light side has it's own percentage of petty people gumming up the works.

Not much to comment on this week, since one topic has been done to death.
Steven Pattingale
8. Pattingale
Fun recap! Thank you.

Poor Herid Fel, we hardly knew thee...

Yay Rand+Min. Wonder how they'll handle the Rand+Min+Elayne+Avi stuff if a movie is made? hehe
9. Lost in my own mind
One thing I have never understood here is what Sammael is trying to accomplish? Is this just general sowing chaos stuff or is there something else? Why send the Aiel all over?

Also, while I am a true Cadsuane hater (have been since day 1) on this re-read I have noticed one re-deeming quality I missed in the past. She is the only person who can put the sea folk in their place. And on my scale of hatred the sea folk outrank Cadsuane, frankly they are at the top of the scale.
Birgit F
10. birgit
Shouldn't the Wise Ones notice that "Maisia" is linked to a man? Maybe they don't understand what they see because they don't know linking (Eg taught it to the Dreamwalkers), but they should notice that there is something odd.

How long is it since Moridin was reborn if he already has saa again?
Marcus W
11. toryx
birgit @ 10:

I don't think there'd be anything for the Wise Ones to see. They can't see Saidin and the glow would just surround "Maisia," not both of them. And since Sammael controlled the flows, they would have seemed to be coming from Maisia rather than him.

I can't think if it was ever described what a male-female channeling link looks like. Maybe it's contradicted later.

As for the saa, I got the impression that the longer you channel the True Power at one time, the more the saa appear while channeling it. It's just extensive use in general that keeps the saa present when the user isn't channeling the True Power. So Moridin could still be new to his second body at this point.
Ron Garrison
12. Man-0-Manetheran
OMG! BEST re-read EVER!!!

I laughed all the way through, but laughed out loud at: "Oh, and also, Moridin = Ishamael Reloaded. If you dispute this in the comments you will be Smote with the Wrath of Cluebat for being too dumb to live. Don’t be that guy. Really."

Of course, now the rest of the office is all looking to see what's so funny. Thanks Leigh!
13. Zhull
@9 - Hundreds of small bands of Aiel maurading about the countryside with thoughts of the Aiel War still in peoples heads = much chaos.

That's really all Sammael was looking for backed up by his statement about little sources of chaos being just as important and big ones.
14. Paten1
Gentleman Farmer @5

Sammael did not make the Oath Rod he gave to Sevanna. That came from the stash found in Ebou Dar.
Thomas Keith
15. insectoid
...When the Saints go marching in! Party on Leigh!

Annnnnd I can't think of much else to say. Except that Cadsuane and Sevanna are both annoying and should never have been stuck in back-to-back chapters;)

Cadsuane: is still Annoying. And has indeed been discussed to death.
(Oh Leigh, please don't hurt your head--use bubble wrap!)

Rand & Min: have Sex. Yay?
At least she had a good excuse for it; not like a (to-be)queen ordering her consort to her bed, so to speak.

Sevanna: is still Annoying. And talks to a cube. The End;)

Moridin: is very Sneaky.
Though when he shows up with Moggy later in the book this mystery (and the Wanderer) was pretty much cleared up for me.

M-0-M @12: Totally agree! ::still laughing::

EDIT: My 300th comment on Tor. Weee! :D

16. Lsana
Reading that comment at the end of the chapter...Knowing what's coming, does anyone else now want to go back to Moridin and beg him to balefire Sevanna and her minions? Think of the terrible plotlines we would have been spared if he had followed through on that thought.

Beyond Sevanna being...well, Sevanna, I actually really liked the Patterns Within Patterns chapter. In my mind, this is how the Foresaken should have been portrayed. Selfish, yes, petty, yes, but also threatening. Even when Graendel and Sammael and Moridin are being petty here, they still feel like they could destroy a good chunk of the world just because they were in a bad mood. Here, they feel like a threat. In most of the other places they appear, they don't seem like they could defeat a kindergartener.

About Sammael's comment that Semirhage and Demandred may have been involved in Rand's kidnapping: on this re-read, I'm assuming that it just means that Sammael knows about the Triple Alliance and figures that whatever Mesaana is involved in, there's a good chance that the other two are helping as well.
17. Gentleman Farmer
@14 Paten1

The Oath Rod might have come from the stash in Ebou Dar... but as of this moment, I don't think Sammael knows where the stash is. He appears to find it at the same time as Mat and Elayne and be raiding it with the gholam when they do.

So how, at the time of his meeting with Sevanna here, does he think he can promise an Oath Rod? He could also have got it from his stasis box that Graendel envies, so might already have it.

From the way he talks about things he might be able to provide he might be setting high hopes on an Ebou Dar stash, but my initial (and continuing) sense from reading it was that he thought he could make the stuff if he needed to do so.
Bonnie Andrews
18. misfortuona
Yeah new post, and of course I had to get busy at work just when it came out. Yeesh.

Anyway thanks again Leigh, you managed to make two mostly horrible chapters funny.

Yea, WOT a great big Yeah for Rand and Min. Absolutly those two both needed a good comforting, and I agree they are my favorite couple of the three. Duh, of course.

Lost in my own mind@9
Couldn't agree more about the SF way out anoying Cads.
Sevanna, well I just got nothing. Never really felt much of anything about the Shaido, other than what a waste of paper.

Bryan Cogswell
19. shmoo
As another Cadsuane hater i've always wanted her and Mat to have a scene together. Play that in your mind. Cad doing something to Nyn and Mat defends her...all sorts of goodness there...(at least in my mind)

Also - Sammael most likely throws Aiel all over creation which should force Rand to clean up the mess thus NOT attack Sammieland (or at least i'm thinking that is what Sammael was thinking). Delay of Rand's attack would also lend evidence to the claim that there is a truce
20. Gentleman Farmer
(to avoid a large wall of text, please excuse the successive postings)

@9 Lost in my own mind.

Re: What is Sammael up to? Excellent question. Particularly the large numbers of Aiel sent all over, showing up in Winter's Heart and CoT. I had initially assumed that he sent virtually all of them in front of the giant army on the plains of Maredo, but instead it looks like the vast majority went to Ghealdan, Amadicia and Altara, with some in Arad Doman and Murandy.

The only thing those areas seem to have in common is they all border with Seanchan and (if Sammael had been correct that there were Wise Ones with each group) would significantly hinder the advance of the Seanchan.

But why? Just to distract from/protect Illian? Because Seanchan impose order and limit the chaos available?

One of the other curious things appears to be that he sent them as though Rand had accepted his truce. i.e. he didn't send them to any of the countries already controlled by Rand, or which his division of the world would have granted to Rand. This includes Tear... he didn't send them behind the giant Aiel army, but in front of it in Illian's territory.

Maybe he did believe there was a truce? Or that he wasn't allowed to harm al'Thor?

I can't really come up with a satisfactory explanation. I'd be most interested in the thoughts of this group.
Rob Munnelly
21. RobMRobM
I think of these chapters as Prologue Part Deux. Aggravating folk back to back.

No, Cad is not my Luv Muffin (down, Toryx) but she clearly has a strategy at this point that work well, both re Rand and re the other AS. He is intrigued, she gets info from Rand's AS, and Rand is upset enough to fall to Min's feminine wiles - everybody wins. She later shows she is very competent - during Blades chapter re bubble of evil and during cleansing - big issue is that even though Rand asked her to be his advisor, he doesn't ask for her advice all the way to KoD. Her overall goal isn't too bad - keep him courteous and respectful of people around him and be prepared to ask others for help rather than doing all herself. My problem is her tactics - repeatedly insulting him - isn't necessarily the best way to induce him towards the strategic goal.

22. MasterAlThor
Smote with the Wrath of Cluebat

That should be put on a coat of arms or something.


Congrats Leigh, to bad your not down there in all that mess. Superbowl victory and Mardi Gras??? We may have lost you until Easter.

Good stuff with the reread. Thanks.
23. TyRANDosaurus
Greetings and felicitations from a new poster.

Insectoid @15

When does Miss Elayne order Rand to bed? I've forgot when that happened
24. Paten1
Gentleman Farmer @17

When Caddar gave the Oath Rod to Sevanna, he told here he only got it the day before.
Bridget Sullivan
25. Ellid
Ah, Cadsuane and your 'vileness.'

Who knew at the time she was referring to the events we later see in detail in New Spring? I seem to recall some WOT Savant piecing it all together in rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan even before NS was released. My mind, it was blown.


I think the second chapter here (Graendal and Sammael Screw With the Shaido) is certainly a dread bellwether for the sudden oncoming glacial plot pacing from here on in - honestly, can you think of how many useless lines of text involving the Shaido can be traced to this damned chapter?

Ron Garrison
26. Man-0-Manetheran
Are you referring to the murder of the Amyrlin and her searchers?
27. alreadymadwithsammael
I thought Sammael had found a stasis box. Same place he got the female angreal that Graendal filched after Sammael was toasted. Sammael was just following the Dark One's orders. Let the Lord of Chaos rule. Any Aiel sent chasing after the Shaido was one less threatening his position in Illian.
Bridget Sullivan
28. Ellid

I refer to the vileness in its entirety - the death of the Amyrlin and her searchers, plus the rash of murders of luck men and Red Ajah going out and gentling people illegally without their trial.
29. Paten1
alreadymadwithsammael @27

That was also after he had the Ebou Dar stash raided. So the gold ring angreal could have come from there.
30. msjanc
Wow, this is my first reread that I'm not still playing catch up. So I'm geeked, so geeked in fact I don't know what to say..soooo I'll go with...
Geaux Saints!
Karen Fox
31. thepupxpert
msjanc @30 - welcome aboard! It took me about 6 weeks to read all the re-reads, the FAQ, and all the spoiler threads, but it was worth it to get caught up. Now I sit and twiddle my thumbs in between posts like the others! ::twitch::
Thomas Keith
32. insectoid
TyRANDosaurus @23: I was comparing Rand & Min's scene here (and Avi's in TFoH) to Elayne's in WH ch. 12; by comparison, Elayne pretty much orders Rand to bed IMO.

BTW, like the name;)

33. Ithuriel
"If he even tried to stop now, she was going to fetch one of Riallin’s spears, all of them, and stab him."

Classic, enough said.

I actually preferred Elayne's scene and her and Rand's romance the best. This is mainly because I see her as actually being the most like me. I see her as actually being the least forward of the three women and most shy. To all those people talking about her "ordering" him to bed at least she asked and didn't grab his hair since IIRC Aviendha did the same thing. I'm not really criticising the other two it's just that I prefer Elayne.

Elayne fans 1: Min fans ?-1

Also, go Saints!
34. Ithuriel
Damn, was going for infinity symbol consider it edited as I don't have an account..

Plus, I thought the part with the rose afterwards in WH was sweet.
Richard Millard
35. rsmillard
Ithuriel @34

Actually, it was a lily afterwards, but I liked the Elayne scene as well. I didn't see any "orders" being given there - read more like a (rather shy) invitation to me.

I liked the Aviendha scene as well, but then Elayne and Aviendha are probably my two favorite characters in the entire series, so I guess that figures.
36. Caballito
One thing in this series has always bothered me about Rand/Lews Therin: While they/he bemoan the fact that he killed Illeyna and understandably so, I've never ONCE heard him lament having slain all of his children. In THE Prologue (TEOTW's was just that cool) they said the halls were strewn with the bodies of all those he loved/held dear and held a drop of his blood inlcuding his kids. I know Illeyna was his true love but it just doesn't seem right that at no point would the products of a love as true as that be lamented.

And I miss him. Because be honest guys, he's easily been the coolest forsaken in that he has that pure hatred factor for Rand/Lews Therin, has been one of the more visible, and easily the most effective (in so far as Forsaken plots we've witnessed) in his attacks and scheming of all the Forsaken.

While I subscribe to the Demandred being awesome way of thinking thanks to the few glimpses we've had of him, it's mostly born of the potential his character has to do something darkly amazing and fitting for a character who's been so hyped up. Sammael meanwhile got AFTER it from day ONE. And in a series where we get to see so little of the series biggest bad guys (not counting the first few books) it kinda sucked he had to go, but nevertheless exciting because he gave us a pretty good showing and Rand a run for his money.
37. FellKnight
@33 Ithuriel

I'm going to go with no. Avi kissed Rand. After that, it was all highly consensual passionate lets-get-down-to-bidness.

Elayne was all like "They've had you. I haven't. I will have you."

But I'm sure Leigh will have her say in a few months when we get to WH ;)

Lannis .
38. Lannis
Suddenly I'm wondering if one of the reasons for Alanna bonding Rand (aside from the "bad shit happens when you're the Dragon Reborn" thing) is because it would be pretty logical for someone like Cadsuane to waltz in and bond him herself... and that would be Disaster... :|

As it stands, Alanna's cannon fodder in my books, and then Rand's three ladies will have to drag him out of the depths...

Thanks for the recap, Leigh, great as always! Excellent commentary! :)
Thomas Keith
39. insectoid
Fell @37: Well said! Thanks for backing me up. :)

Tess Laird
40. thewindrose
So, an appropriate chapter for Valentines Day? Although, bad Rand on the follow through. You don't comfort then ignore! Good thing it was Min, Elayne would have stomped off after being turned away and would have gone and got captured by some baddies. But wait, then Mat would have come and saved her, so it wouldn't be that bad;)

hmmmm, should I go there:) So the Watcher and the Wanderer are the same person? And...that person is Moridin??


Just kidding;)

And here we have proof that Ishydin is truly evil ...He let Sevanna live to torment us with the kidnapping.

41. Ithuriel
Fellknight @37

I'm not really sure what you are saying no to. I'm certainly not saying that it wasn't consensual, far from it, I'm just saying that all three of Rand's first romantic encounters involved the women being reasonably forceful. It's also just that I really don't like the hair-tugging lines from this and Avi's encounter.
Chin Bawambi
42. bawambi
Cool ski jumping in between periods of the Devils game...anyway

And throw up a little in my mouth.
Dodgeball reference? LOL!

I liked the Satchmo link the most of all...

Why hast Jordan Forsaken me? MOA in the post IMO!
Bonnie Andrews
43. misfortuona
And here we have proof that Ishydin is truly evil ...He let Sevanna live to torment us with the kidnapping.

ROFLMAO and Amen.

Mis-popping in to chatch up and out
Alice Arneson
44. Wetlandernw
Really sad. I'm reading this only four hours (or so) after posting, and I really haven't got anything to say about these chapters.

Contrary to what some seem to think, I don't actually love Cadsuane, (LUV muffin??? Oy! I gag in your general direction!) nor do I claim that she's perfect or even close. I just want people to think a little instead of assuming everything she does is bad bad bad bad because they don't like her personality. Be fair. And is it sacrilege to say that Rand isn't perfect, or perfectly behaved? Not last I knew. Just saying.

So now I'll have fun reading the Cadsuane chapters to see if the things I didn't say are borne out or not. :) But as toryx says, the same words will convince different people of different things, so... oh well. I probably won't ever bother to say them.

And Sevanna. Gah. Without an exclamation point. She used to make me angry; now she makes me irritated and tired. Does that mean I've read the series too many times? Yikes. Maybe it's just what others have commented - it's the beginning of that looooonnnnngggggggggggggg plot arc that sorta went from bad to worse and got no better fast...

So, how was that for "nothing to say"?
Sandy Brewer
45. ShaggyBella
Rand + Min was very touching and sad.

I thought Elayne's encounter was pretty funny, with Rand's disgusting Nuli disguise, Elayne's guards comments about her taste in men, Nyneave and Lan's reactions when Rand said he loved 3 women and the effects of the bondings (both meanings of the word) on the non-participants.....
Valentines Day, indeed.
Tricia Irish
46. Tektonica
Well Min and Rand were the only good things in these chapters. I couldn't believe it when I did my reread last night and it was MORE Cadsuane and then two very least favorite characters in the whole of WOT. And guess what guys....more to come!! (But Swoven Night is next! More Mat! Sqeeeee.)

Do we have to pick which LUV scene was the best? They were all so different, which is pretty awesome when you think about it. And not too detailed to make us all blush and groan and squirm. And Yeah Min! He is a dense sheepherder and needs help in this area. (Well, several areas, actually.) As Min is maybe my favorite female character, I definitely heart her story I pick Min and Rand.

And are the very funniest writer ever. I do hope you do standup, or write for someone who does, or are writing a book stating your opinions on ANYTHING. I'll buy it! I had to read some of your lines out loud to my uninterested husband, who was staring perplexidly (word?) as I guffawed out loud. I'll go into a separate room next time. Thank you!
Tony Zbaraschuk
47. tonyz
Sevanna: Too stupid to live. Either she or her Wise Ones ought to have more political sense (like, for instance, if they believe an Aes Sedai is behind Sammael-by-the-other-name, then maybe they should be, I dunno, focusing on the "Aes Sedai" instead of him? Even if she's ostensibly controlled, they've still got that reputation as machinators that everyone else is worried about...)

Cadsuane: I think the thing that most bugs me about her is: if she's so legendary, why didn't Jordan set up at least ONE or TWO legends about her earlier? For the guy who foreshadows stuff eleven books away, this seems awfully weird.

Min/Rand: Yay! That is all.

Sammael: Every once in a while the Forsaken show us (not just tell us) why people have been using their names to scare small children for more than thirty centuries. Manipulative talents like this are one reason.

Graendal: Um, what? Hyper-psychologist is getting BSed by Sammy? Maybe you aren't so great as your reputation leads us to believe. Or are you double-acting your part here?
john mullen
48. johntheirishmongol
Nice Min time. Took her a little while to get him to quit thinking of her as a friend but she did it. It's always hard to change someone's thinking about you.

Cadsuane, still annoying all the time.

Sevanna, just as annoying in her own way.

Leigh, buy a rubber desk. All I can think is that you must be related because only my family has that hard a head that they can bang their head all the time and never suffer a bruise.
49. JanDSedai
I'm looking at Merana's viewpoint in ch. 19 where she guesstimates Cadsuane's retirement. It says she held the shawl 25 yrs when Cad retired, then another 25 yrs the Aiel war broke out. Is this akin to when I say something happened awhile ago, maybe 5 yrs ago, and then I realize I've been married 15 yrs, so it had to be before that?! I thought Caddy had been retired 70 yrs at this point. But can't remember where I got this. But I was sure somebody remarked about Cads not being in the tower that long.

Yeah sex scene!

Demadred uses "Maisia" as Graendal's alias. Is that like calling someone a "Dolly Parton"?!
50. ZamIt
"Maisia" = Graendal's real name or Old Tongue for slut/whore/bitch?

Min - If Rand lives, this is the girl he should be with. The other 2 are just trouble for a farm boy from the Two Rivers.
Thomas Keith
51. insectoid
ShaggyBella @45: I like that chapter, too.
Okay, so maybe I'm just being hard on Elayne. But there are an awful lot of Elayne-haters around here, so...

John @48: Totally agree about the rubber desk!

EDIT: ::cough:: According to the Enyclopaedia WoT:
Maisia evidently has an unpleasant connotation for Graendal, but there is no indication from the Compleat Old Tongue 2.0 as to what it might mean. Jordan purportedly said at signings that, in the Age of Legends, Maisia was a common name for pets.
So there's that.

Alice Arneson
52. Wetlandernw
According to
Robert Jordan explained at one interview that Maisia was a name commonly used for pets in the Age of Legends, something that Graendal would be aware of.

EDIT And insectiod got there a different way before me.
53. JanDSedai
Re: Cadsuane popping up without any warning; didn't Annoura do the same? So maybe she was foreshadowed by example.

What with everything being foreshadowed, Fore-seen, Foretold, and dreamed twice, it's no wonder this saga is so long.
John Massey
54. subwoofer
Well- Agh sums it up pretty succinctly. I coulda done without these chapters. Ever. And if ever there was a case where two people needed to be smote- this is it. Definite smoting.

"If Elaida is a lawful Amyrlin, why have you not obeyed her order to return?"...

"So one of you has a little backbone." Cadsuane laughed softly, but here eyes did not look mirthful at all.

I take this to mean that Caddy thinks Elaida/Suffa is a boob. So this is the second thing I like about her. First thing LIMOM pointed out.

And I have to go with Shmoo here. A Caddy meets Mat scenario has fun written all over it. Either that or Mat out in the cold and rain digging a deep hole again. A toss up really.

Caddy and Mo are on the tops of my list. And Mo cussing out Rand for forgetting about her letter. Don't trust any AS. Dance free.

Sevanna. Well, I don't get her. I also don't get why the rest of the Aiel, Shaido or not, put up with her. Sevanna reminds me of Isendre, and we all know how that ended. It is just that she is so not Aiel, and yet she is in charge of a clan. Disaster.

Best sex scene? Have to be Melindhra spanking Mat on the bum pre or post coital;) ::ducks the smote by the cluebat::

55. MostlyAnthony
Min is the best. Her love is true. Elayne might have been love at first sight, but then she becomes very irritating for no reason with her stupid letters and whining about "How dares he give me a throne that's rightfully mine?", and Aviendha, well, she only loves Rand because it was prophesized she would fall in love with the car'a'carn. That's right, the car'a'carn, not Rand Altor. The only one who really loves Rand is Min, period. (Remember, "I see you, Rand")
56. Ithuriel
@ MostlyAnthony

I don't think you can really argue that any one of them loves Rand more than the others. I mean Min herself saw that all three would fall in love with him, not that she would fall in love with him truly and two others wouldn't. You could argue that she is a better match for him on the basis of him being better at sheepherding than at being Aiel or a prince, but that's a different issue.

Re: Cadsuane

That talk about a lawful Amyrlin, I can't decide whether it was a test to see if they had backbone or not. If it was then it was pretty convincing. On the other hand, if it wasn't then I don't see how she could ever claim to be wise. She herself knows the Black Ajah exist (WH ch.13) so surely it should be obvious that they would be behind the split in some shape or form and therefore that Elaida's rise was dubious at best. I mean Egwene figured it out fairly easily.
Jay Dauro
57. J.Dauro
@ MostlyAnthony

And Rand is also in love:
And not one a whisker more or less than the other two. I don't just want one of you. I want all three.
No, all three love him, and he loves all three. And unless many of us miss our guesses, that's going to be very important in the two books to come.
58. MasterAlThor
Way to go Insectoid. I had no idea what Maisia meant. Or why it made Graendal go all cold.

Suervey A.D.D. just kicked in.

Which Forsaken (for R.Fife that would be Chosen) would you most and least like to snuggle with. For all you sexaholics out there.


She seems like she would like to snuggle every now and then


Ummm. She just might kill you if she didn't "get" hers. Then again she just might leave you in permenant "on" and that would kill you too. Either way, it's bad all around.

Have fun


edit: didn't instead of did. dang phat fingers
Bonnie Andrews
59. misfortuona

Stands up. My name is Mis and I'm a sexaholic.
No not really but I just couldn't resist your 'suervey.'

Really most of the Forsaken men pretty much creep me out, but if I was to choose one it would have been Asmodean. What can I say, I have a thing for musicians.

If it had to be one whose still alive?? Moridin.

Mis-is there a twelve step program for this
Tricia Irish
60. Tektonica

I was waiting to see if someone took M.A.T.'s bait! You are LOL funny.

Forgot about Asmodean, good choice....he seems the safest FS, and a musician/artisit is always good in unusual ways......

But I'd agree with you on Moridan too....if it had to be one that was still alive. He seems to have the most on the ball.

I must say, I always liked rogues (Mat!!) but true badboys, no. No attraction.
Healthy self-esteem or just plain ol' self-preservation!
Don't really think I could swing the FS way.....

BTW, Beautiful Opening ceremonies last night. Bravo Canada!
Bill Reamy
61. BillinHI
Suervey: While I (might) find Lanfear more beautiful and sexier than Graendal, she is way crazier! Semirhage would definitely be at the bottom of the list, but I doubt that I could concentrate on snuggling, knowing who (and what) they were. Give 'em all a pass.

Re Cadsuane: She herself admits in TGS that she has failed with Rand but still refuses to admit that it was her methods that failed. Obviously Rand needs help (not guidance or direction), but even without Dumai's Wells I don't think her methods would have worked.
Tess Laird
62. thewindrose
Tee Hee:)

Graendal did say that Moridin was almost pretty enough for her collection. And he does have the philosophy thing going on. So Moridin for me please.
I would like to also note that I don't dig true bad boys, like my colleague Tek:)

sub - what is going on with the weather on the west coast of Canada? Sounds like they should have had the Olympics in Edmonton!

Alice Arneson
63. Wetlandernw
Completely off topic, but for all my northern neighbors - loved the opening ceremonies. Might be a little prejudiced, because I'm a big fan of your country, but I really enjoyed it. Good luck in the competitions!

Tai'shar Canada!
Cathy Brown
64. totoro-in-randland
Waving hiya to all. This is my second post, but since the first was on the tGS thread, I'll do a short re-intro just to say I'm a long time fan and have recently finished a complete reread (not for the first time .... ).

I read and enjoyed the back-and-forth about Cadsuane in the comments on the previous chapters and have to state upfront that I'm in the I-hate-Cads-and-all-she-stands-for camp. That's partially because she represents all that's wrong with the WT (in spades) and partially because she's just so plain obnoxious, but mainly because I think she's poorly written.

As a newcomer to these discussions, I hesitated to write this since I'm sure RJ's weaknesses in writing women have probably already been discussed to death and beyond (to rebirth now?), but since I didn't see it brought up in the Cadsuane debate, I thought I'd risk it.

The problem with Cadsuane is that she's largely one-dimensional: rude, overbearing, absolutely sure of herself, etc, etc. etc., and we get few glimpses of anything else and just hints of a backstory.

But if Cadsuane is one-dimensional, then Sevanna is, hmmm, what???, .5% dimensional? Beats me. She's an utterly unbelievable character, placed in a completely unbelievable situation. That any Aiel, Shaido or not, would accept her in a position of leadership just is ... well, ludicrous.

Ok, gauntlet thrown, I'll retreat now and prepare to lick my wounds.
65. J.Dauro
I'm sorry, but this just made me laugh out loud. As Isaac Asimov once said, "Lost in Non-translation.
If it had to be one who is still alive? Death.
Sheila McEvoy
67. SuffatheDamane
"Maisia evidently has an unpleasant connotation for Graendal, but there is no indication from the Compleat Old Tongue 2.0 as to what it might mean. Jordan purportedly said at signings that, in the Age of Legends, Maisia was a common name for pets."

Hahh! Thanks! It's like Sammael was calling her 'Fifi' or 'Trixie.'
Tricia Irish
68. Tektonica

Welcome to the reread threads. No darts from me! I'm in the anti-Cads camp too. I get frustrated by our lack of insight into many characters' thoughts. A few lines from Cads "head" might have helped us "get" her. As it stands....just rude and in insufferable.

You are absolutely right about Sevanna. I never understood why Therava, etal. puts up with her. What could she possibly do if they just ignored her, or tied her up and put guards on her tent? She has no authority other than having been married to a clan chief guy who died. So? She's doesn't hold Aiel ideals.
She can't channel. She's leading them "nowhere". Just so unbelievable.

And then there's the plot to nowhere. I still don't get the whole purpose of that either, but we'll get there soon enough. Ug.

I see you Wind ;-))
Captain Hammer
69. Randalator
Oh yeah, Cadsuane...*sigh*
I feel your angrish...I mean anguish...I mean both.

Interestingly, I'm currently re-reading BWS's ('s's's's's) Mistborn - The Well of Ascension and it reminded me how much better a Cadsuane Tindwyl is. She just manages the right balance between the stern I-will-suffer-none-of-your-stupid-crap and genuine empathy. Cads? Not so much.

She is in desperate need of a lesson (the size of Texas) which is kinda ironic when you think about it...the lesson thing, not the Texas thing...
Ron Garrison
70. Man-0-Manetheran
Phaw! I need to interrupt this "which Forsaken would I Choose for nookie" fest to stand up for Cadsuane again. Not that the old gal wants anyone to defend her, but I don't want Wetlandernw to be out there by herself either.
"once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al’Thor, and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself."

This passage has been interpreted as evidence that Cadsuane wanted to bond Rand. Not at all! "Merana thought of Cadsuane saying..." AND "while everyone else expressed disgust, Merana..." That would be everyone else but Merana! Therefore, Cadsuane is equally disgusted at the idea.
I went back to earlier in the chapter to see just what Cadsuane really said:
"I wandered a bit, to see what I could find, perhaps a new Warder, though it's a bit late for that in any fairness to the man."
Sounds pretty clear to me that she has given up on any more Warders. So, what we have is a freaked-out Merana's paranoid fantasy. Reading the chapter again, I picked up more subtle things, like Corele's amusement at the other AS's discomfiture under Cadsuane's questioning. I feel much like her. I enjoy seeing them all squirm, and it is testimony to Cad's skill at interrogation. These otherwise ever-so-reserved AS are spilling the beans left and right!
"Cadusane's expression and tone were so neutral that Merana wanted to tear her own hair. Al'Thor would not be pleased if he learned Kiruna had revealed the kidnapping."
Alice Arneson
71. Wetlandernw
Man-o-Manetheran @70 - Oh, this is what I love about this group. So, what we have is a freaked-out Merana's paranoid fantasy. You are SO right. Thanks for going and actually looking it up; it hadn't even occurred to me.

While I don't loathe the AS the way some do, I have to admit to a few grins over the way Cadsuane makes them squirm. The ta'veren occasionally cause them to do things they otherwise wouldn't, but not too many people can have this effect just by virtue of themselves and their own natural (or carefully developed!) abilities.

Thanks for the support. ;) I've never expected (or even intended) to make anyone think Cadsuane is all that lovable, much less kitten-hugging-puppy sweet (can you imagine?). I'm just amused at how the readers' dislike of a particular character (for whatever reason) can twist their perceptions of what that character says, or what is said about him/her by others.

On a completely random note, I just have to throw this one in for everyone's general amusement:
(from The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting)

Random Crazy Lady: Is there any chance that Cadsuane might be Ilyena reborn?
Sanderson: I...wha?...First of all, I'm not going to answer that. Second of all...EWW! ... And you can quote me on that!
(From the theoryland database on Cadsuane.)
John Massey
72. subwoofer
Well, we all know AS are knobs when it comes to going by rep and not getting being respectful of non-AS. What I find interesting is the structure and ranking according to power. How can any Sitter not see the flaw in that. Look at Elaida. Boob. But she has enough power to give her rank. Shame that. I believe I have said it before but it bears repeating, the way the WO's do things should be examined for structure and respect. Mind you, if such was the case, Egwene may of been overlooked as Amyrlin.

I don't completely loathe AS, I just think that they have been running the show for too long and have lost touch with reality. Some sort of term limits would be nice to keep them on their toes and responsible. Like what the Senate needs. Maybe have the Sitters rotate out or the Amyrlin have eight years like the prez. I dunno.

Bugs me but yeah Caddy asks all these questions, but why does anybody feel the need to answer? Especially Rand. Ignore the question. Unless Caddy has a magic lasso that makes people talk. I can't recall reading about such a ter'angreal but it could happen.

And for myself, as I have said, Caddy personifies all that is wrong with the Tower. And, IMHO age does not equal wisdom or being right all the time. Some remarkably dim people manage to escape natural selection and live a very long time. They even have kids and pass on their "dumb" gene. Tragic. If only I had a trunk monkey to sic on these folks.

John Massey
73. subwoofer
Wait- we were supposed to vote on the sexiest Chosen? I don't remember this. Did they have a swim suit round? How about humanitarian questions? The evening gown section? Talent competition? Did I miss out here?

I think they all lose point for boobery. Maybe Asmo. He's frilly enough...

Thomas Keith
74. insectoid
MAT @58: You're kidding, right? Forsaken Nookie?? That's just... disturbing. (Then again, so is Cads?Ilyena!)

...Well...maybe Lanfear, pre-crazy? ;)

Ron Garrison
75. Man-0-Manetheran
Sub: "Bugs me but yeah Caddy asks all these questions, but why does anybody feel the need to answer?"

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I ENJOY her character. Just her presence, her personality, her technique, just who she is makes them babble like a brook! And we know she works at it. Think how in TGS she puzzles over how to break Semi.

I know I've referenced Patrick Jane on The Mentalist several times, but he employs these same out-of-left-field techniques, and the suspects just can't help themselves. They give it right up! If you haven't watched the show, treat yourself.
Tricia Irish
76. Tektonica
Re Cads: I am amazed that people babble for her. My inclination would be to keep my mouth shut as firmly as she does, ie: If you can't be forthright with me, I certainly won't with you. Bugs me how other people ask her questions and she totally ignores them and goes off in another direction. Rude.
77. miked
MoM @70
This passage has been interpreted as evidence that Cadsuane wanted to bond Rand. Not at all!

However, in chapter 12, tPoD,
Cadsuane considered bonding Rand herself and also forcing Alanna to pass the bond to her, but Alanna's lack of control over Rand made her give up the idea.

From encyclopedia WoT, as I don't have my books with me.
Ron Garrison
78. Man-0-Manetheran
miked @ 77
Yes, but that is quite a bit later in the story, and in Winter's Heart, Chapter 25, when Alanna finally wants to get rid of Rand's bond, Cadsuane refuses it.
Ron Garrison
79. Man-0-Manetheran
One of the things I enjoy most about these re-reads is discovering things I’ve missed in previous readings. When reading the story in order, it’s easy to slide past great little nuggets that RJ used to fill out his characters. But when I go back to look something up, I’m jumping around and reading out of context. That’s when I discover some of these nuggets.

For instance: Corele and Daigian. Two new characters at this point, and easy to overlook. BUT, how about this? These two have chosen to travel with Cadsuane - to hang out with her. I’m sure the Cads-haters are screaming “why the hell would anybody...???" Good question actually, but I never asked it until today.

“She had been longer a novice, and Accepted, than anyone in living memory, barely allowed to remain in the Tower, gaining the ring by a fingernail and the shawl by an eyelash. Daigian was always self-effacing around other sisters.”
As we know, Daigian will always be at the bottom of the ladder when around other AS - always. And we know some of them can be quite dismissive of those weak in the Power. That’s gotta be rough.
But how does Cadsuane treat her? “Taking a cup from Daigian, she smiled warmly and murmured thanks.” In context of Cad’s interrogation of the other sisters, this actually stands out rather pointedly - although I never noticed it before. One little aside, but 180-degrees more deferential than the way the other AS are being treated. Cads has always been higher in the power than everyone else, but here Daigian doesn’t feel like an outcast. Subtle, yes, but here she is actually raised above the others by Cad’s courtesy and manners.

(Herding in Bera and Kiruna) “Corele never failed to seem amused, whatever happened, but now she wore a wide smile somewhere between disbelief and outright laughter.” Oh yeah. She knew what was coming, and she was looking forward to it! She hangs with Cadsuane for the grins!

So, gentle readers, tho’ I defend Cadsuane, what I’m really trying to say is: let this re-read be an opportunity to find things you haven’t noticed before. And don’t let your dislike of a character cause you to jump over their parts of the story. It would only be your loss. And now it’s time to get ready to go party! See you on the flip side!
Julian Augustus
80. Alisonwonderland
Back to Cadsuane, and why I disagree with Wetlander on this issue, much as I love her otherwise. Two of the passages directly quoted by Leigh above show her main motivation. In the first, she is berating Merana, Bera and Kiruna for not behaving like Aes Sedai:
“A wise decision, that,” Cadsuane murmured, with a pointed look at Merana. “It seems that in the last few years far too many sisters have forgotten they possess brains, or discretion. There was a time when Aes Sedai reached their decisions after calm deliberation, with the good of the Tower always in the front of their thoughts.

So, we know that for Cadsuane herself, her guiding principle is always what is good for the Tower. Not necessarily what is good for the world, but what is good for the Tower.

Next, we get her own thoughts on her motivation and strategy:
The al’Thor boy needed to be kept intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, and off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or suppressed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing.

Aha, so her entire behaviour is designed to give her the ability to nudge him where she wanted, in other words, control him.

Put the two direct quotes from her thoughts together, and what do we get? Her entire purpose is to control Rand for the good of the Tower!

And to do this, she subjects him to countless humiliations, trying to dominate him in public, slapping him, hitting him with an invisible switch, etc.

Sorry, Wetlander, but if most readers hate her, in my book they are entirely justified.
Juan Avila
81. Cumadrin
miked #77

passages you're referring to...

Unshed tears glistened in Alanna’s eyes. “In my place, you would have done the same!”

Cadsuane scowled over the cup at her. She might have. There was no difference between what Alanna had done and a man forcing himself on a woman, but, the Light help her, she might have, had she believed it would help her reach her goal. Now, she no longer considered even making Alanna pass the bond to her. Alanna had proved how useless that was in controlling him.


well, as to Cads, i'm also a hater. not frothing-at-the-mouth hate, but i very strong dislike there is. the one praise i have is she WAS the one who had to teach Rand what he needed to learn, i think. no other ally of his has shown the will to push him just far enough but not too far over the edge to stop being emo. basically imo Rand HAD to reach rock bottom before he could realize he needed to stop digging his own hole, and Cads was the only one i think could push him far enough without breaking him entirely. or that's what i think RJ's intent for her was. i could be wrong. either way, i don't have to like her. even the characters i hate, i appreciate for their role/diversity in the story, or i try to.

on that suervey... well assuming no strings attached, why not snuggle the 'most beautiful woman ever' if you can. this is purely based on physical hotness and i'm not ashamed to admit it. nothing was said about any sort of extended relationship or anything, otherwise i wouldn't touch this question with a 10-foot cuendillar pole. close second would be Semi. why? it's been pointed out that even being tall she's 'perfectly proportioned' and hot. but if you consider/imagine channeling enhancing the experience, my bet is she would be the most skilled. ;)

suervey also wanted least desirable choice as well, which i'll go with Moghedien on, considering she's at best described as handsome and has never struck me as very interested in 'pleasures of the flesh' as Aginor speaking for belthamel would say.
82. miked
thanks, that's the one.


'So, we know that for Cadsuane herself, her guiding principle is always what is good for the Tower. Not necessarily what is good for the world, but what is good for the Tower.'

To be fair to Cadsuane, she is discussing the split in the tower, where the AS should be holding what is best for the tower in their minds, and she seems to hold herself fairly aloof from the business of the White Tower.
Julian Augustus
83. Alisonwonderland
Sorry, Miked, but I don't think so. The passage almost certainly means she thinks AS should put the Tower first in all things, not just regarding the split in the Tower. Let me quote once again to show the general nature of her statement.
There was a time when Aes Sedai reached their decisions after calm deliberation, with the good of the Tower always in the front of their thoughts.
84. miked
'The passage almost certainly means she thinks AS should put the Tower first in all things, not just regarding the split in the Tower.'

I agree with that it seems to be very general, however, she is talking to the other Aes Sedai about fast decisions made by AS. If she was so concerned, and had the Tower in the forefront of her mind all the time, why did she go into retirement, to the point where most of the other AS believe that she is dead, and upon returning, rather than dealing with the WT split, instead go to the dragon reborn.

It seems like she does put the world, or maybe winning TG ahead of the WT, especially as she ignores the WT completely to be Rand's advisor.
Alice Arneson
85. Wetlandernw
Alisonwonderland @80 - Just to play DA...

First, it's not necessarily true that what she says here reflects her own motivations. "There was a time when Aes Sedai reached their decisions after calm deliberation, with the good of the Tower always in the front of their thoughts." Quite true, as far as it goes, but the wording is very Aes Sedai. Obviously they would think that she would always have done so, but she didn't say that at all.

As an aside (but an important one), "the good of the Tower" can be interpreted a lot of different ways. Losing the Last Battle wouldn't be good for the Tower, so doing all she can to help him win it would easily fit within a reasonable interpretation. Note that she does not say "the Hall of the Tower" or "the Amyrlin" or even "the decisions of the Tower". She says "the good of the Tower" - and being Cadsuane, you can be sure that she's made her own decisions about what's good for the Tower, and quite a few Aes Sedai might be truly stunned if they knew what those decisions were.

Second, you only assume that you can tie the two quotations together that tightly. I could easily argue that her nudging is probably based on her experience with keeping other channeling men alive and sane far longer than normally expected. Although she was unable to keep them from the insanity and disease that would eventually claim them (she's not the Creator, after all, and she does have limitations), she apparently learned some tricks to help them cope with it for longer than they would have on their own. Her nudging may be solely for the purpose of keeping him functional. So... is that for the good of the Tower? Heck of a lot better than having him create another Dragonmount! That's good for no one except Team Dark.

I don't expect to change your mind, but there's a whole lot we don't know, and I think your assumptions are based more on prejudice than fact. As is so often the case, you and I can read the same words and get completely different meanings out of them. I'll wait until we find out the whole picture.
John Massey
86. subwoofer
@Wet, well, some could say the same for you, "your assumptions are based more on prejudice than fact". For all we know, Caddy's ability to keep male channelers alive has to do with feeding them on occasion rather than letting them starve before being gentled. As for sane, that is pretty subjective. Being insane, well, it may just seem that way as some men may make desperate attempts at freedom and not being chained and "gentled". What is gentle about making a man lose his will to live anyways?

The Tower- here's an agruement I'll throw out there, would a strong, respected, decisive personality like Cadsuane make a good Amyrlin? IF that answer is yes, then would Caddy turning the honored position down be for the "good" of the Tower? Or is it that Cadsuane wanted adventure and she could not pursue that if she was chained to Office? To serve?

As for the way she treats others, well, IMHO to get respect you have to give respect. By calling people "child" and "boy/girl", well, those are not exactly honorifics. Sure Rand is a boy of 20, but he is also the Dragon Reborn.

Let us set Rand aside, how about Tam. Tam is a grown man, raised Rand by himself, farmed, is a solid respectable man in his own right. He has maturity, is level headed and is respected in his opinions. Cadsuane gave Tam a script that just about drove Rand over the edge. Tam came in worried and upset that his son is not the same as when he left the TR. Caddy's initial comments were the same old dogma about being civil to her?! Oh my aching head!

Edit- big time spoilers ahead!

"Interesting," Cadsuane said, her voice cold. "And did you speake the words I prepared for you?"
"I began to," Tam said, "but I realized that it wasn't working. He wouldn't open up to me, and well he shouldn't. A man using and Aes Sedai script with his own son! I don't know what you did to him woman, but I recognize hatred when I see it. You have a lot to explain to-"
Tam cut off as he was suddenly lifted into the air by unseen hands."You recall, perhaps, what I said about civility, boy?" Cadsuane asked.
"Cadsuane!" Nynaeve said. " You don't need to-"
"It's all right, Wisdom," Tam said. He looked at Cadsuane. Min had seen her treat others like this, including Rand. He had always grown frustrated, and others she did it to were prone to bellowing.
Tam stared her in the eyes. " I've known men who, when challenged, always turned to their fists for answers. I've never liked Aes Sedai; I was happy to be rid of them when I returned to my farm. A bully is a bully, whether she uses the strength of her arm or other means."

Cadsuane snorted, but the words had irked her, for she set Tam down.
"Now," Nynaeve said, as if she'd been the one to defuse the exchange," perhaps we can get back to what is important. Tam al'Thor, I'd have expected you of all people to handle this better. Didn't we warn you that Rand has grown ustable?"
"Unstable?" Tam asked. "Nynaeve, that boy is right near insane. What has happened to him? I understand what battle can do to a man, but...."
This is irrelevant," Cadsuane said. "You realize, child, that might have been our last opportunity to save your son?"
"If you'd explained to me how he regarded you,"Tam said,"if might have gone differently. Burn me! This is what I get for listening to Aes Sedai."
"This is what you get for being wool-headed and ignoring what you are told!" Nynaeve interjected.
"This is what we all get,"Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want."

Now, as I have said, Tam is a good guy and a respected man, and yet Caddy insists on calling him a boy, several times. Great she is old, I get that, but at some point, a man is a man be he 30 or 300. Respect. And Tam stood up to her. Which is what Caddy needed because her way of instilling civility by being anything but civil left much to be desired.

A bully is a bully and that is why I do not like Cadsuane. She is a bully. It has been pointed out that Caddy has ter'angreal that would protect her from Rand should he want to retaliate for her use of force. Bully, when you can hit someone who is unable to strike back. Actually, to me, that is cowardly. And as I have said, she embodies all that is wrong in the Tower. Assuming that her way is the right way and the only way to do things. Some people have to learn to think outside the box they are in. Cadsuane is one of them, not just Rand.



Edit- I will cross post this as it does belong on the other thread as well.
John Massey
87. subwoofer
'K, on the other hand, I do identify somewhat with what Caddy is dealing with. I consider myself young minded and plugged in to the next generation. But things really grind on me making me feel like that geezer on his front porch cussing out the young'uns and shaking my cane at them as they pass on by. This is somewhat personal so bear with me if it goes astray of WoT.

I set out at an early age and have been on my own since then. Many kids stay at home now until much later in their lives under the veil of "it takes much more to have the same standard of living and getting started out than 30 years ago". Well, tough. Getting started out always sucks. That is how people really mature and learn the value of a dollar and how to hustle, a little humility and to appreciate things. I bought my first place at an early age with my army money, but could not afford things like furniture for years down the road. I survived. No big deal. It was a growth experience. Made things simple as I did not have much to move as I flipped houses. Don't want this to be a sob story, I am sure many folks here all grew up in not so easy times and did things the hard way. And learned from it.

As an employer now, I have young men showing up with no skills or experience and expecting to be handed a paycheck and expecting raises. That sense of entitlement really grinds on me. Especially considering the outrageous money they are making (mind you, I still judge everything by the value of a dollar in '95). Job market has shifted now, so hopefully that attitude will change too. There is nothing wrong with hard work and earning your money.

How was that for Cadsuane-like? I do see things in Caddy that I can instantly relate to. The world is not flat anymore. The world has changed in her 300 years but has Caddy? This is the Last Battle, right around the corner. Cadsuane has valuable things to teach, but her methods and her attitudes are wanting. The thing about experience and wisdom is it has to be translatable to current situations and relevant to people so it sinks in. Saying "back in my day" doesn't make it so. Some values, like civility, respect, trust, and patience, transcend time, and are important, but to pass on those lessons, you must lead by example.

Rand needs guidance, he does not have all the answers. He does have a team of people around him that can help. I dunno, I feel that what Caddy has to teach Rand is to trust, and to do that Cadsuane has to learn how to get Rand to trust her. Maybe then both Rand and Cadsuane will learn some lessons on respect and civility. Then Rand can reach out to those around him and not feel like he is on an island. Then the whole using Callandor thing will not seem like a mind boggling task.

88. MasterAlThor
Hear, Hear, Sub!!!

That was excellent, both post. Seriously. Wetlandernw you too, although you should be used to recieving the accolades.

Gah. Where are my manners? Good Morning everyone. And congrats Canada...err Blight for hosting a great Olympics so far.

Now if we could get back to the matter at had...the survey??? Inquiring minds and all that.

Last name ever, first name greatest....
Like a speained ankle boy I ain't nuttin to play with....

Tricia Irish
89. Tektonica

I think you would make a fine Aes Sedai! You can parse words with the best of them! And you are completely right....our personal feelings often color what we hear, both in the WOT and RL. A good RJ observation/lesson.

Sub@86 & 87: Obviously, Cads didn't know anything about Tam either. Umm, if she'd bothered to get to know what kind of accomplished Man he was, she might have had a few clues to the son, no? She just blindly bullies Tam too. (Ignorant commoner/farmer that he is!) Her methods are, not appropriate for Rand. She might not realize that at first in this chapter, but she doesn't adjust, as witnessed in your quotes from tGS. That is not wisdom. It's not working! Try something new!

Rand needs all the help he can get. He hasn't reached out because of his fears: Of AS, because of experience and Mo's letter, Of people judging his craziness at hearing he has LTT in his head, Of his mistreatment, Of his observation that even his allies are with him to fulfill their own prophecies, Of his own self-doubts and lack of knowledge.

Cadsuane's bullying does nothing but lock Rand up tighter. She is playing with fire with her treatment of him, and it almost backfired, big time. (Massive understatement.)
John Massey
90. subwoofer
Yes, thank you for the reminder- good morning to all:)

@Wet, no disrespect to you, I just wanted to express the other side of the coin.

Olymics- ironically, I missed watching the opening ceremonies because I was out shopping for another TV. Caught Gretzky later on though. Had to be him. Did me proud. Tragic what happened to the Georgian luger. Things can only go up from here.

Anyways, I am glad that RJ made this other world with characters that we can all relate to, one way or another.

anddd- happy valentine's day.

Tricia Irish
91. Tektonica
The Opening ceremonies were beautiful...magical really. Well done, Canada! Vancouver looks like a very cool, beautiful city in a majestic setting. I hope to see it someday. The far northwest of the US, Wash and Oregon, are the last state holdouts for me. When I get there, I'll certainly swing up to Vancouver.
(Been to Calgary/Edmonton/Banff and Jasper....gorgeous!)
92. GoldsteinLives
Hey all, new to the threads (having JUST caught completely up on the re-read and deciding not to comment until I had.)

I think I might be the odd person who falls somewhere in the middle on Cadsuane.

On the one hand, it IS nice to see an Aes Sedai who is not Moiraine or one of the Supergirls who is, by all accounts, quite competent with the power (I mean, she seems able to take down male channelers like its her job) and whose surface arrogance is backed up by actual courage. The interrogation in TGS is also pretty cool and shows us that her steel can be put to good use. I feel like she really is what some of the old school Aes Sedai were like, and its nice to get that insight.

On the other hand... she really is rude and dismissive without any good reason to be. While her treatment of Daigan is good (following the whole "judge someone's character by how they treat the waiter" rule) she still is a generally unpleasant person to be around, and achieves nothing by it. In fact, she seems to lose ground because of it.

Generally, her strategic decisions regarding Rand are poor ones, and watching her try to push and manipulate Rand is frustrating because we've seen this movie before with Siuan/Moiraine, Alanna, Elaida, etc. So we know that even if Cadsuane's manipulations were ethical, they are still stupid and wrongheaded.

I'm interested to see the interaction between Moiraine and Cadsuane if/when they meet after Moiraine's likely rescue. Moiraine has become a legend in her own right, and unlike Cadsuane she learned from her poor strategic decisions. Also I believe that, by the end, she did legitimately care about the others as people and I don't believe Caddy does. I doubt Moiraine (or post TGS Egwene for that matter) will be bullied or manipulated as easily as Cadsuane may think.
93. saintsfan4life
subwoofer @72:
Bugs me but yeah Caddy asks all these questions, but why does anybody feel the need to answer? Especially Rand. Ignore the question. Unless Caddy has a magic lasso that makes people talk. I can't recall reading about such a ter'angreal but it could happen.

I've been wondering for a long time about this and just wanted to see what everyone else thought of this re: Cadsuane's ter'angreal. Is it possible that one of her hair ornaments works similarly to the Crystal Throne in that it inspires a kind of awe in whomever is near her? It just always struck me as odd that whenever people are near her they always seem taken aback about their reaction to her.
Tricia Irish
94. Tektonica
Welcome Goldsteinlives! We have to find a way to shorten that handle...ummmm...Goldie? Would you object? What perseverance you've shown by reading all these ramblings! Whew!

I'm looking forward to the Mo/Egwene confrontation with Cads as well. Should be, ummm, interesting. Three very strong women with different approaches.

Saintsfan: Interesting thought on Cads ter'angreal......people do seem to stumble and spill their respective beans to her on demand. I never got why. And she just goes on ignoring their questions. Arghhhh.

BTW, do we know that the Crystal Throne causes awe and worship? I thought that was just a theory....gurus?
95. GoldsteinLives
Goldie is just fine as a shortened handle, whatever makes everyone's lives easier for the conversation, you know?

Re: Caddy's magic lasso- I think we've found out that one of the ornaments is a well, one is an angreal, and others have varying abilities to detect channeling. Do we know exactly how many she has, and which ones we are still in the dark about?

If she does have this, does this mean she'll also obtain bracelet ter'angreals that deflect arrows and an invisible sho-wing?
Tricia Irish
96. Tektonica
I want a sho-wing! Skim over traffic and park on the roof.
97. JanDSedai
Caddy's hair ornaments are decribed as "moons and stars and birds and fish". (plural) So that implies she has at least 8 of them. And at least one of them disrupts the flow of saidar (POD ch. 12). Maybe one of them is a truth ter'angreal.

Caddy=Wonder Woman not!
Jay Dauro
98. J.Dauro
From tBBoBA
The Crystal Throne itself is a great ter'angreal that causes anyone who approaches it to feel immense awe and wonder. Of course, only the reigning monarch is ever allowed to use it.
Since this is from BBoBA, it is not gospel, but I believe it is a pretty reliable source for this data.

From the FAQ Is Cadsuane's hair thingy a Ter'angreal? gives a description of what is known through the start of KOD.
99. TyRANDosaurus
@92 GoldsteinLives

I agree with you and Tektonica concerning the hoped for Moiraine / Cad / Egwene meeting. Lots of sparks and fur will be a flyin. Meow. psssssssst
Thomas Keith
100. insectoid
Only 100 comments?? Where is everyone?

Sub @86: Nice WoT! ;)

MAT @88: I left a wall o' text in your shoutbox:)

101. TyRANDosaurus
Well insectoid . Here in the US and on the westcoast it is still the middle of the day ( V-Day ) and I imagine lots of readers are still high on champagne brunch, chocolate, and spring type weather. It kinda like Swovan Nights and Sadair is in the air.
102. AndrewB
Survey: I'll take Lanfear (sp?), please. I would not touch any of the other female forsaken with a 10 foot pole. After sex, Grandael would compulse me like one of her pets; Semi would torture me. Mogi and Masaena (sp?) are described as being only average and of course their personalities are not enough are to overcome their lack of looks.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Alice Arneson
103. Wetlandernw
subwoofer @86 - One, like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate a lot because so many people flat-out refuse to see any possibility that Cadsuane may be anything less than completely awful. So my "essays" - which you might note have been full of "may" and "might" and "what if" - have all been an attempt to read the same text from a different angle. Much of what is assumed by the majority of the readers is only inferred, and I like pointing out alternative inferences. It is quite clear from his extra-textual comments that RJ actually liked Cadsuane, and while he certainly wrote her in a way that many would dislike her, I think he also wrote it so that if you looked at it differently you could like her - or at least appreciate her.

As for your quotations from TGS, I'm trying not to deal with those too much. I'm afraid they reflect too much of BWS's dislike of Cadsuane and not enough of RJ's appreciation of her. Obviously I could be wrong - maybe RJ had both those scenes (Tam & Rand, Tam & Cadsuane) written already, but to my mind they aren't quite consistent with her portrayal in the earlier books. What's more, I'm concerned that it will carry through the end of the series in a way that RJ hadn't intended. It's not a huge concern, because I know he'll get the major stuff right, and he said RJ already had every characters "end" at least in notes.

I'll talk more about respect - or lack thereof - later when we actually get to scenes where it's relevant.

To jump back and pick up on Man-o-Manetheran's comments at 79, as regards her treatment of Daigian... I wonder if, being pretty much at the top of the (non-governmental) Aes Sedai heirarchy, she is free to essentially ignore it in her interactions with other AS. That would allow her to treat the rest of them in accordance with (her view of) their behavior instead of their strength/learning-curve status. If Daigian acts with courtesy and intelligence, she is treated with courtesy and respect. If Merana acts like an hysterical child, she's treated to a sharp set-down. And so on.

Tektonica @89 - Thank you! - (I think...) I enjoy word-smithing, especially in something like this discussion! After this many rereads, I'm starting to think in AS-ese whenever they speak.

Oh, and when you make it up here to the Pacific NW, give me a shout! I'm on your way to Vancouver. And yes, it's a beautiful city. I've spent many a lovely weekend there. Pick the right hotel, and it's lovely even in the rain - which is important there!
104. MasterAlThor

Welcome to the nuthouse. Hope you manage to make it. As you can see we have all kinds of sillyness going here.


Got it. Thanks


Lanfear is just plain nuts...see "My Super Ex Girlfriend" for good example. No way brother, I ain't touching her. Good to look at but not to snuggle.
105. MasterAlThor
By the way folks....

If you ever see coolman12, be nice. It is my younger brother coming to play in the sandbox with the big kids.

He has just read up to Crown of Swords for the first time. He's new he doesn't understand yet, but he starting to get it.

Edit: I actually called it Crown of Thorns. Oh boy.
John Massey
107. subwoofer
Wow! I just got flagged. Ah well, it is what it is. Must be the PG site...perchance I will go willy nilly with the flag option myself. Just for kicks. Freedom of expression get thee behind me! I am sure there is something on a random piece of paper somewhere about such things...

'K, lets try this again from memory.

@M A T- no worries, I've had my Rabies shot. I think your brother should be safe, just warn him about the Fife link.

@Wet, yes, you were playing DA. Duly noted. And I was always wondering to what extent RJ influenced Caddy's portrayal in tGS. It would be hard to believe that BwS let his prejudice get away with him when writing the ol' biddy. Mind you, IMHO RJ did put a big target on Cadsuane's back. She is the biggest symbol of Aes Sedai and what they stand for. A legend among these all powerful women. I am thinking that if there is hope for Caddy, then there is hope for everyone. And I think my following post at 87 speaks to that.

Would be interesting when Rand and Co. finally make their way to the White Tower. At some point this will have to happen. What will Caddy say about Eggy? What will Eggy say about Rand? Will Rand hit the fan and splatter? Things I want to know. For me Caddy is like Jack in "As Good as it Gets", grumpy, anti-social, OCD, and basically dysfunctional when it comes to human contact. But Jack came around and even got the girl by the end of the movie. Caddy has the same potential. We will all have to RAFO where it will go.

@Goldie, well, I shudder at the image of Caddy in blue spangled hot pants and a red push up bra. yeeeeeee! The horror!

And I said something about a 10ft pole, but apparently a person's mind dwells with Juilin's mice and figs so here we are now...

Edited because I can't spell splatter.

Thomas Keith
108. insectoid
Now, who would do such a mean thing as to flag poor Sub? And, since when is this site PG? ;)

Re: Caddy=WW... ::shudders::

John Massey
109. subwoofer
@insectoid- no worries, I have thick skin and a dense skull. Kept me alive all these years.

Good times:)

Woof™. orrrrrr wouldn't-touch-it-with-a-10ftpole™. Boy, I could run with this one.

Alice Arneson
110. Wetlandernw
subwoofer et al. - You realize, of course, that if you all said something on the order of "well, gee, it's possible she might turn out to be not so bad after all" it would completely take the wind out of my sails and I'd have nothing left to say. ;) Then I'd have to take the other side, except that y'all would have left me nothing to say there either. I'd have to go gin up a new looney theory or something.
John Massey
111. subwoofer
@insectoid, It seems to me the ratings got spiked with a sex survey. People have been dancing around that one for some time. Polite "no comments". S'ok.

Incidentally, my wife got me a red monkey that chirps and says "I'm coconuts for love" for Valentine's day. Figs and mice abound.

John Massey
112. subwoofer
@Wet- Cadsuane is like Rand in many ways- a big target so a person can't help taking shots at her. It is like many icons in the modern era- Tiger Woods. We want to see them fail. We want to see them fall. Sadly speaks to the human condition. Reminds me of a Morrissey song about "We hate it when our friends become successful"...

Rand is hard to wrap my mind around as he is up and down. What he has to do is a daunting task, so I make excuses for him even though he is a poop. When that Aiel hung himself, well, that really got to me.

Cadsuane is the same way. I feel she will go out with a bang. RJ hinted at it and BwS has kept her in when he could of killed her. Cadsuane has reached rock bottom in tGS, I want to see her rebound. Maybe really show what being Aes Sedai, "for the good of the Tower" really means. Eggy needs help. She can't do it all on her own. Cadsuane bridges that gap.

'K, I have to install an newer all powerful wifi router so I will be gone for awhile as I black out the Olympics for everyone on the West Coast. Apologies in advance.

113. GoldsteinLives
Huh... its kinda weird to be in the middle in terms of opinion of a controversial character. Don't know exactly what to do with that.

I think my opinion of Cadsuane can be summed up by something said by Spike in season 5 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. "The trouble with you, Summers, is you've gotten so good you're starting to think you're immortal."

Its the problem many tremendously successful individuals have. She's so used to being powerful, in charge, and RIGHT, that she just starts to think she can bulldoze her way through anything. She's dealt with about 20 male channelers, and played the Aes Sedai game longer than anyone, so she figures she can deal with Rand, or with anything for that matter. And she gets frustrated, snippy, and rude when everyone else in the room isn't right there with her.

I don't dislike her. I just think she's wrong most of the time in her strategies for dealing with Rand. (As it turns out, she's much better equipped to deal with a Forsaken and similar problems.) I just think she suffers from a blindspot/character flaw that is common in very talented people.
114. GoldsteinLives
And ok, ok, Caddy can't be Wonder Woman. For one thing, they probably don't even MAKE those boots in Randland.

Well, maybe in Arad Doman.
Tricia Irish
115. Tektonica

Of course I meant it as a compliment! You are indeed a wordsmith and a very insightful thinker. I will call if/when I make it to the great Northwest, absolutely! Thank you for that invite!

Sub@107: What/where were you flagged? I've read everything.....don't get it?
Thomas Keith
116. insectoid
Tek @115: Re: Sub... That's because the comment in question (106) was balefired.
Tricia Irish
117. Tektonica
Thanks for the explanation Insectoid....I think I might have read that comment before it was removed from the pattern and only thought it mildly racey. Passed right by....
It's probably good to have Hall Monitors, but geez, pretty tame stuff....
118. MasterAlThor
Hey, Sub got balfired????

Is there anyway we can see it? I wanna know what he said that got that kind of response.

Pablo, Torie....I only know of them from their occasional post. Maybe it was so bad they couldn't offer a warning.

Maybe they are on vacation and the replacements got trigger happy.

I guess we shall never know.
Ron Garrison
119. Man-0-Manetheran
Thoughtful commentaries, Goldie! Welcome to the board. “Falling in the middle” is all I ask. Like Wetlandernw said so much more eloquently, I found myself having to defend Cadsuane because I thought all the one-word dismissals, wretching, throwing-up-in-the-back-of-my-throat responses were completely over the top and unfair. RJ obviously had a reason to include her and keep her around for so long. I find there is much to ENJOY when reading her part, and I hate seeing her get not much more than a middle finger salute ‘round here.

A common description by many is that she is the epitome of AS arrogance, etc. As a literary device, this actually allows her character the ability to give the other AS a dose of their own medicine. Whether she is doing it intentionally or not, doesn’t matter that much to me. It works, and I get a good laugh now and then when she shakes them up.

Sub @ 107 - Great Jack Nicholson reference! Now I have a new casting option in my head: Jack in drag as Cadsuane! Picture a big grey bun on his head...LOL! I think she will have a big turnaround in the next books and play a very significant role in TG. No matter what anyone thinks of her tactics, she really wants to do the right thing.
Roger Powell
120. forkroot
Hey, Sub got balfired????
Speaking more precisely, Sub's comment got balefired. I think if Sub got balefired, then a whole bunch of his comments would disappear, right? We could judge the strength of the balefire by how far back his comments disappeared.

A really BIG blast would significantly reduce the load time for the Open Spoiler thread ;-)
Roger Powell
121. forkroot
BTW, do not take the attempt at humor above to mean that I want subwoofer's comments removed. When my man Sub says stuff like:
As an employer now, I have young men showing up with no skills or experience and expecting to be handed a paycheck and expecting raises. That sense of entitlement really grinds on me.
Having owned my own business for 10 years, all I can do is shout "amen!".

Chiming in on the current topics:

Romping with a Forsaken ... put me down for Lanfear too. I too have a "crazy ex-girlfriend" in my past. Too many lows, but there were definitely some "one-night" highs ::blushes::

On the Olympics: My wonderful, non-crazy wife and I just celebrated our 13th anniversary last week. Ironically, we honeymooned at Whistler and experienced the exact same weather problems that delayed some of the events. Deja vu!

Unfortunately, Whistler (like all coastal range ski areas) is more at the mercy of the weather than interior ski areas. But when it's good, it's awesome.

Back to WoT... regarding Cadsuane: I'm sure Norla taught her a lot, but what is missing from her training was exposure to one Albus Dumbledore. Now there was someone who taught manners by example instead of prattling on about manners and exhibiting very few.
Sandy Brewer
122. ShaggyBella
I was just thinking that Cads reminded me of Professor Minerva McGonagall. (Maggie Smith) Without the hat. She even had the bun and quite a stern manner, but with a wisdom underneath. She seems nicer than Cads could ever be, though.
123. TAmyrlinring1
forkroot@121: Excellent Dumbledore reference! Indeed, we could use a lot more of Dumbledore's overall sensibilities for "guiding" Rand--allowing him to stretch, find answers and test his abilities without placing him under one's thumb, just like Professor Dumbledore did with Harry. However, I don't think Cadsuane of the present re-read section has that in her, so I think she's doing what she "knows", it's just not the most effective thing. However, after TGS, maybe our Cadsuane will have had a lesson that actually "guides", pushes, nudges, her into being a real help. I think that most of the adult response will have to come from Rand post-mountain top revelation though. He'll still have to deal with her idiosyncrasies a bit instead of the other way around, but I'm placing bets that things will get a bit better on the Cads front. Now, Egwene . . . we'll have to see what "facing her anger" means.
124. MasterAlThor
Happy Anny forkroot!!!!!

I am still working on year 7. And yeah I had the crazies too. But thanking the Creator that I found one that is not so crazy. (IMHO they are all crazy to some degree or another.....jumps for the bunker)
Rob Munnelly
125. RobMRobM
By the way, belated response to Foresaken survey: I'll go for Graendel. Smart, sexy dressed and wild - what more could a guy want....

@119 - my thoughts exactly. I'm not pro-Cads but she can't be easily dismissed either. I'm also of the camp that BS was too openly anti-Cads in TGS.

Ron Garrison
126. Man-0-Manetheran
Note to Leigh:
I was at the local Micro Center yesterday and spotted a "Bang Head Here" mousepad. Operative word: "pad". It might come in handy.
Thomas Keith
127. insectoid
MAT @118: As I speculated on the spoiler thread, I believe there is a spook in the spam filter...

Fork @120: Oh for shame! ;)

Bella @122: You're right... I can picture that!

M-0-M @126: Perfect!


Roger Powell
128. forkroot
Nope, this one's not a bit crazy. Hard to believe I got so lucky. Thanks for the kind wishes though.

And now I have to jump to BWS' defense. Yes, yes he once admitted that Cadsuane was not his favorite character... but please don't overlook that Brandon has taken on finishing WoT almost like a sacred trust. He has stated over and over his desire to keep WoT true to RJ's vision, and I believe that he is enough of a professional to examine his own biases and try to submerge them as he writes each character in turn.

I really didn't think that Cad's essential character changed in TGS. She was still pushy and domineering to other AS. She still deferred to Rand openly (per their agreement) while attempting to manipulate him covertly. She still mixed competence and blindness to her own prejudices in equal measure.

She was a polarizing figure in the volumes before TGS and she remained that way. I thought BWS did a good job with her. OK, he might have especially relished Tam chewing her out (we all did!) while writing it, but I suspect he'd have written that scene no matter how he felt about Cadsuane.
Sean Banawnie
129. Seanie
Cads: Wellll..... I have mixed feelings about her.......she is the essence of AS. Arrogant ? Yes, very. But generally pretty smart in some respects. And not ignorant arrogant like Bera and Kiruna or God forbid---Elaida (Yuck) but not Moi cool either. I think(hope) she humbly apologizes to Rand and they move forward.
Steven Pattingale
130. Pattingale
Which ... ah Chosen would I want to go out on a date with? If I wasn't happily married? lol


Given that these are my choices:


*rubs earlobe*
Thomas Keith
131. insectoid
No comments in 4 hours? Don't tell me I scared everyone away with my spoooooooooookyyy voice? :)

Yes, Graendal is sexy, and all... but I'd rather not be a Compelled zombie! (Almost said Compulsed—ain't I naughty.)

132. Ithuriel
(peeking out from behind the sofa) Is it safe to come out?

I'd also point out how many men (or women) Graendal has probably snuggled with previously.

As for me, no comment.
Rob Munnelly
133. RobMRobM
What's wrong with a little experience on a girl? Geez....
134. dozburger1
Outside the Pattern?

The second last line of that chapter has never registered with me before: "To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern."

Whilst this may be blatantly obvious to everyone else, I'm missing something. What does 'outside' the Pattern mean? Isn't the Pattern the whole kit and kaboodle? If you exist, don't you exist in the Pattern, with the exception of Dark One and the Creator? Though, hang on... isn't a vacuole (the thing that Moghedien was held in) outside the Pattern - I can't remember...

Does this mean that Ishamael is hanging out with the Dark One (maybe in the Bore itself), or perhaps in a vacuole? The crazy multiple-yet-all-the-same room place that Rand went in TGS to have a cuppa tea with Ishamael and repeatedly in TEOTW, is that Ishy's pad? And is it within the Pattern, or outside? Does it matter? Eh. Crazy, yet fruitless, speculation trailing off into nothingness...
Alice Arneson
135. Wetlandernw
dozburger1 - Pretty metaphysical. I don't think we're supposed to be able to understand the mechanics, but I think the wording is significant and intentional. IIRC, you are correct that the Creator, the DO and vacuoles are the only things outside the Pattern... and wherever Ishamael/Moridin goes. We don't know about vacuoles yet, though; they come up in a few chapters... (Now I'll be thinking about it differently, with this in mind!) It may be only emphasizing the relationship of the True Power to the DO, or it may be more. Or we may never find out. ;)
John Massey
136. subwoofer
Yay! Back in the saddle again- with a 10ft pole to boot! Careful lurking Puritans- mice and figs...

I think I may of done something wrong with the install though- not sure what I clicked but security is set to "frag" and it boots me out of Tor every couple of mins. OTOH I get full bar coverage from my bedroom and to the end of the block- believe me, I tried, my neighbors can attest to the crazy guy wandering down the street wearing his jammies with a laptop in hand.

Fun with the Forsaken, reminds me of the old saw from Austin Powers-"she's like the village bicycle, everyone's had a ride...", couldn't find the youtube link yet. I'll play keep away and stay away myself, if I wanted that kind of trouble, I'd find a Maiden of the Spear and play Maiden's Kiss 'till the wee hours. But I like my beard and don't plan to change my look any time soon.

The Pattern thing warps my mind, or rather it may be a warp. I just watched Will Farrell's Land Before Time and it is giving me ideas for the Portal Stones and alternative worlds. Right now the only translatable rule from the movie is "don't trust a guy in a tunic". Rand should put an APB out on all tunic wearers. The movie also nicely ties in to my new found crusade with 10ft poles. I pity the fool that forgot my dingle ball infatuation.

@M O M- that mouse pad sounds brilliant:) Gonna have to wander down to the local weenie store and pick one up myself. Mind you, I am more prone to smacking my head with heavy objects rather than the other way around. I am attempting to change that pattern but I am not a big helmet fan and technically I have an office job that really gets "hands on" at some point.

Was thinking about Rand and his three women too, wife was watching the Bachelor. Seems the guy was in love with all three um... finalists? But still managed to send one home. According to my wife, it was the wrong one. I wonder if Rand would have a similar elimination process? The fallout could be epic.

And yes, thought it was kinda sketchy to pick Van& surrounding environs for the big "O". Tropical weather for winter games. Would have been better suited for the Summer Olympics. Not a big Francophone, but Quebec had my vote for this one. At least it is cold there,some may even say winter-like. Meh. I think we've reached the point of no return now.

Edited for my terrible spelling which some kind soul pointed out earlier.

Birgit F
137. birgit
"To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern."

he took the end of her shawl in both hands. "The Pattern", he said. "Caemlyn," one finger on his left hand tented the wool, "and Cairhien". A finger on the other hand made a tent, and he brought the two tents together. "I bend the Pattern and bore a hole from one to the other. I don't know what I bore through, but there's no space between one end of the hole and the other."
She thought the way would be to create - a similarity seemed the only way to describe it - a similarity between the real world and its reflection in the World of Dreams. That should make a place where it was possible to simply step from one to the other.

LoC ch. 27

Moridin Travels with the TP, which rips the Pattern instead of boring a hole with saidin or making two places the same with saidar. All methods of Traveling have to somehow cross the room outside the Pattern between two places in the Pattern that have been brought close together.

Graendal's pets are probably too damaged by Compulsion to have much fun. Those who are after a hot female Forsaken seem to forget Halima (or doesn't "she" count as female?). Graendal's original name was Kamarile Maradim Nindar.
Rob Munnelly
138. RobMRobM
Birgit - we haven't forgotten. It's just a bit too icky, for me anyway. Rob
Bonnie Andrews
139. misfortuona
Testing testing. Hello can anybody hear me?

So I've been trying to post since Saturday evening, apparently the WOT faries don't like the name either:)

I've got a couple of looney theories. One was almost covered on the other thread, but I definatly can't post there, so I think given that Lanfear's pretty accessories are/were actually 'greal' of some sort, and that the Finns collect them, it could be that she simply traded with each group for a door out.

I also had some thoughts on Cad's. I know dead horse and all, but I was thinking about her bringing the other male channellers to tears at the end.

If Rand's emotional shutdown is common with men who channel, and why wouldn't it be when they know they're going to go crazy and anything they think or feel is suspect, then maybe Cad's way of dealing them is what makes them live longer.
Maybe the key to living for them is to allow, be forced, to feel emotion again. And really who else seems better equiped to bring out an emotional response than Cads.

Mis-sing in action
Chin Bawambi
140. bawambi
Before I present a looney theory: I'd like to defend the BWS portrayal of Cads - I re-read chapter 13 of WH mainly because I wanted to see if there was any wriggle room to make Cads Black Ajah - and discovered that she seriously thought twice about picking up the Sea Folk rep with Air so it was not out of character for her to bully Tam with the same method (sorry I don't have book with me to quote exactly)
Looney theory probably already presented: Rand in his new pragmatism bends knee to Seanchen to get Randland nations in order for final battle thereby incurring Egs righteous anger with the one people she can never forgive.
Marcus W
141. toryx
bawambi @ 140:

Actually, I think that's a good point. Egwene's angry at Rand for all manner of things, but if he actually made an agreement with the Seanchan that'd really piss her off. She'd probably call him a traitor to the Tower.
Tricia Irish
144. Tektonica

IMHO, Rand may cede the Seanchan some territories to govern, but I can not see him doing it without some concessions on their part. I can't imagine Rand allowing leashing and slavery, given his humble upbringing, and his response to the Lords in Tear and their treatment of "common people".

The part of the prophecies that say the north & east and the south & west (I think) will be one, indicate some kind of division of Randland, as the Seanchan already have much of the west and south, that would work. (Again, I'm not sure I have my geography right here)

I still think there will be some kind of confrontation with Tuon and Mat, as well as Rand about the slavery/leashing business. I can't imagine Mat standing for it either......some of the AS are his oldest friends! And then there are the Male channelers. We know the Seanchan "off" them or put them on some island, so that has to be dealt with too.

Much to resolve, before Rand bends a knee, if he does at all. Egwene has lots to be irritated at Rand about already, as you say....although much of her irritation stems from lack of information/communication. What a surprise!
Tricia Irish
145. Tektonica
I have a suggestion for all of us to consider and perhaps approach the power that be....

What do you all think of a general discussion forum for WOT, if The Gathering Storm Thread self-destructs? That way we could discuss random issues that appear in later books or issues that have been effected by tGS revelations, without messing with these reread threads.

Thoughts anyone?
Barry T
146. blindillusion
Well, first time that ever happened. Getting flagged simply by hitting the post button? Least the site could have done is let the post hit the page and then let...oh you know...the people who are actually going to read to the post to decide if it's spam or not.

When the site itself decides a post is spam before it even hits the endless sheet of internet paper…well…I see the system failing here: sporadic destruction, acid rain, KC Royals winning the Series, Republicans and Democrats working together, dingle balls left unnoticed on the shelves, worldwide shortages of verbosity, revolutions untelevised…GASP…acceptance of Cadsuane by all!!

Anyway….Don't really have much to say. Still need to read through most of the comments. Made it home safely with the Fam. Had a great weekend - at the Rent's, V-Day, B-Day. All in all, another good four day.

Oh, and Sub...who could have forgotten your dingle ball infatuation? With that in mind, here you go.
Tricia Irish
147. Tektonica
Hey Blind! Glad to see you're back....was worrying about your drive when I saw snow in Mississippi and The Carolinas.

Three of us have been flagged as spam now....Sub, Me and You. We are special, eh? Ghost in the machine.
Ron Garrison
148. Man-0-Manetheran
Hey Blind! Glad you had a safe trip and good weekend. I thought about the bad roads and hoped you didn't have any trouble.

This is also a test to see if Tek broke the machine. No posts in an hour and forty minutes.

edit: Looks OK. Tek, you're off the hook. :-)

edit 2: 1+4+8=13 I fixed it!
Bonnie Andrews
151. misfortuona
I wonder if the spam ghost is related to numbers of posts? I mean maybe the computer equates all the times our names come up to mean we're mass mailing, or whatever you want to call it.

Anyway Tek
I think a general discussion thread would more readily reflect what we actually do on TGS2nd, and given the difficulties we all seem to be having in general at TOR, sooner might be better than later.

Mis-tired of NOT posting

Of course my problems seem to have been solved. Just ran upgrades on two anti-virus programs then ran each twice, ran disk cleanup, and reset my internet explorer settings. Jumped up and down for a while and swore, went to bed and woke up with everything just fine.
Sam Mickel
156. Samadai
Hello everyone,

I hope I am forgiven for my prank last week. ;D or should I stay in the corner of the bunker?
I did post a retraction for everyones benefit.
I never disliked Cadsuane at all I thought she was the right character for the times. Still hated Sevanna though.
157. GoldsteinLives
It may also behoove us to remember, in terms of his relationship with the Seanchan, that he "shall bind the nine moons to serve him..." -Karaethon Cycle, The Dragon Reborn.

There's also that prophesy about Mat plucking the moon from the sky or some such, and the fox making the ravens fly. (citation needed.)

I suspect that the "Kneel Before the Crystal Throne" prophesy is one of those true but misleading things. Perhaps it is misleading because it is incredibly literal (i.e. maybe Rand will have to go to Seanchan itself, and somehow kneel in the throne room as part of a plan to undo the chaos that has overtaken the empire.)

Regardless, there is, at the moment, effectively no Seanchan Empire, or more precisely their colonies on this side of the ocean ARE the Empire.

I can't help but feel like the "Black Tower rent in fire..." prophesy is more related to the "He shall know her anger" prophesy than is anything dealing with the Seanchan. After all, Egwene really has adopted a worldview that is a synthesis of Aes Sedai and Wise Ones, and that worldview has been what has helped her restore strength to the Tower. I doubt she's terribly keen on the idea of sisters swearing fealty to Rand, especially given her own experiences with Elaida in the Tower. And Asha'man forcibly binding sisters? That's just gonna be right out.

Add to that, let's be honest with ourselves, Rand hasn't been terribly responsible in how he's handled the Asha'man (effectively creating WMD's, then handing the keys to a madman.) His excuse is that he has a lot on his plate, but still... making sure all is well at the Black Tower seems like it should be pretty high on his priority list, given the sort of power at stake.

My predictions?
1. Egwene is angry with Rand because of the behavior of the Asha'man and the swearing fealty.
2. The Black Tower blows up in civil war when Taim takes control, and Egwene and the Aes Sedai help Rand get it back under control, finally reunifying male/female channelers under one banner.
3. Rand somehow uses Mat to gain control of Tuon, and through her Seanchan, and in doing so helps her restore order to the Empire itself.

Rob Munnelly
158. RobMRobM
Sam - you are forgiven (and certainly not foresaken - or chosen for that matter). Rob
Marcus W
159. toryx
GoldsteinLives @ 157:

Not sure if this is the best place to discuss events so far in the future, but given that there's nothing else going on...

I agree absolutely that Egwene is angry with Rand about the Asha'man and the fealty. Although I think her anger about the binding isn't going to be quite as valid if any AS happen to mention what Alanna did to him. I still think that any agreement Rand makes with the Seanchan is likely to tip Egwene into the superfly TNT mode, though, given her feelings about them.

I don't know that the Aes Sedai are going to be a great deal of help in bringing the Black Tower under control. The Asha'man can wreak whatever sort of violence they want, and they're better trained for exactly that, while the AS are bound by their oaths. There will be a battle, and the Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood but I think that'll be Taim's faction versus Logain's, no AS involved (unless they're bonded to Asha'man).

Finally, I think that the remains of the empire back on Seanchan will be left broken and in chaos for the remainder of the books. I don't think they have any role to play in TG. It'll only be those who have Returned who are involved in the last battle. I also don't think that Mat can control Tuon in the manner in which you speak. He may be able to help with Rand's side of the argument but control her? Never. No man has controlled a woman in this series thus far, and that isn't going to change with Mat and Tuon.

Edit to add: Yes, I realize that the Asha'man are able to compel their bonded AS and Moridin can control Cyndane and Moghedian, but those are special circumstances that completely trump the women's free will. Unless Mat comes back from the rescue of Moiraine wielding some Power binding item (which I doubt) and is actually willing to use it (which I really doubt) then Tuon will continue to run circles around him and be impossible for him to control with any real degree of success.
160. GoldsteinLives
@Toryx: Fair point, concerning Mat and Tuon. I'm trying to figure, then (assuming the prophecies are infallible, as they appear to be so far) how Rand will bind Tuon to serve him? Post TGS, its hard to imagine him doing something like threatening her with violence, or using compulsion on her. And he clearly doesn't want to just beat the Seanchan army into submission, and its not entirely clear that he has enough forces to do that even if it became the plan. My thought with Mat was that, as her husband, he may be the link that will permit her to somehow voluntarily work for Rand.

It may be that the Sisters aren't involved in the coming Black Tower split, and it remains confined to Taim v. Logain. However, don't underestimate the AS, especially now with Egwene in charge. We're used to seeing them as a group full of unjustifiable arrogance, which culminates in the battle of the White Tower in TGS, where at least some of them start to realize just how ill prepared to actually deal with the world they are. But, bear in mind that an entire army group of damane, trained for battle, were no match for Egwene leading a single circle with a Sa'Angreal.

I think, thematically, we MUST see a moment where the Asha'man are humbled by the Aes Sedai, just as we have seen Aes Sedai humbled by male channelers. Otherwise, there remains a degree of unevenness (i.e. the Aes Sedai, minus the supergirls, are all incompetent and the Asha'man are all stunningly powerful.) This works against the gender relations themes that otherwise runs through the books.

More practically, Aes Sedai in circles, or especially in circles with Logain's faction of Asha'man, would be quite formidable.

But also, looking at the actual language of Elaida's foretelling "The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger then ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

Now, we could say the last part has already been fulfilled with the Asha'man binding sisters, but I don't think it has. If we take this foretelling as all of a piece (talking about individual parts of one major event) instead of a small group of unreleated prophesies, there seems to be an order to it.

1. Tower whole again, minus a group (Black Ajah) cast out: Check
2. Stronger than ever: We haven't seen a demonstration of that yet, but I suspect we will very, very soon.
3. Rand faces Egwene and knows her anger: Not yet.
4. Black Tower rent in fire and blood: Not yet.
5. Sisters walk its grounds: Only if we interpret the bondings of sisters to fulfill this.

If we go with the idea that the foretelling describes parts of one big sequence of events, the wording suggests that the sisters walking the grounds happens either after or contemporaneously with the split of the black tower.
Barry T
161. blindillusion
Sam ~ I'll forgive ya...though in my rather tired state last Thursday...and the fact that I wanted to go to hell…I’ll admit I jumped on that quote pretty quick without thinking about it very much…because (like Free) I’ve read pretty much everything Mr Jordan said regarding WoT.

As for why that quote seemed so plausible…it reminded me of Lideine Rajan.

And *le sigh* M-o-M, I hope I’m not included in the “I found myself having to defend Cadsuane because I thought all the one-word dismissals, wretching, throwing-up-in-the-back-of-my-throat responses were completely over the top and unfair” crowd…I thought my arguments against Cadsuane were fairly well thought out as based on the defense of Rand.

And Wetlander, I also believe I stated a few times that Cadsuane has the potential to be what she’s clawing at…but she’s not reached it yet…and nor will she if she continues down the road she’s on. *Le double, I’m defending my position, sigh*. =)

Also, welcome Goldy

And Tek and M-o-M…thanks for the Welcome Backs. ‘Twas a nice trip. Wish my son hadn’t gotten me sick…but eh, what can you do.
Marcus W
162. toryx
Goldsteinlives @ 160:

I don't think that the issue with the Seanchan is quite as difficult as it appears. We know that Tuon isn't evil, and she definitely seems willing to concede that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. The difficulty comes from Rand thinking he needs to be in control, and Tuon believing she should be.

That's something that could be worked out without too much mayhem if all the parties get together and discuss things. Though I think it's going to be a little harder now given TGS events.

Mat is likely the key, but I don't think he's going to be able to force it on Tuon. We'll just have to see how it goes.

I don't disagree with your analysis about the prophecy of the Black Tower's ruin, but the prophecies are always so vague and easily misunderstood that it's hard to really predict what it's going to mean. Assuming that there is a battle between Logain and Taim and Logain wins, sisters are certain to walk its grounds given that they're taking Asha'man to bond. If, in knowing Egwene's anger, Rand has to allow her to send AS after all is said in done, it could still be satisfied.

I actually think that AS will be involved in the battle, but I believe they'll be the ones bonded to Logain and his men. For that matter, Taim has probably got some with him now too, and it'd be interesting if both sides are using circles against each other.

I'll also state for the record that I don't think that everything will be wrapped up by the end of the series. I think there will still be conflict between Asha'man and Aes Sedai and that if Egwene survives TG she'll have to dedicate her life to finding a way to coexist with male channelers, just as Tuon will have to struggle to rebuild the empire on Seanchan soil.
Marcus W
163. toryx
blindillusion @ 161:

And *le sigh* M-o-M, I hope I’m not included in the “I found myself having to defend Cadsuane because I thought all the one-word dismissals, wretching, throwing-up-in-the-back-of-my-throat responses were completely over the top and unfair” crowd…I thought my arguments against Cadsuane were fairly well thought out as based on the defense of Rand.

Ditto. I found the comment to be borderline insulting, actually, after all the work I put into my rebuttals and opinions, but then I realized that surely he isn't talking about me. But then, that same sort of dismissal has been made by others so..*shrug*. C'est la vie.
164. JanDSedai
for goldy @157: "To kneel before the crystal throne" is the Seanchan version of the Kaeretheon cycle. The BBoBA implies that these were corrupted by Ishamael. So this prophecy might be moot, or if you think prophecy has a life of its own (a la Eddings), it might be literal (i.e. Rand kneels down before the Crystal Throne and fumbles for the controls on the bottom).

The Dragon will bind the North to the East. It does not specify who will bind the South to the West. But "the two shall be as one" I think refers to the Two Towers. The White Tower and the Black Tower will have to work together as they did in the AOL.

I always liked Mat's relationship with Tuon being being integral to the prophecy. Or else why were the 'Finns so insistent that he marry her? It has been noted that he got two sets of three answers from the Doorway in Tear. Is he that important? Or is he just another candidate for Most Schizophrenic?
165. Freelancer
Wow. A referee was needed in here. I do believe that an extremely cogent question went unanswered, so I'd like to open by giving that a shot:

I agree with that it seems to be very general, however, she is talking to the other Aes Sedai about fast decisions made by AS. If she was so concerned, and had the Tower in the forefront of her mind all the time, why did she go into retirement, to the point where most of the other AS believe that she is dead, and upon returning, rather than dealing with the WT split, instead go to the dragon reborn.

Now, I do believe that the essence of an answer to this has been raised, but not directly in response to this point. A lesson we learn from various significant Aes Sedai (Moiraine, Siuan, Verin, Teslyn, Pevara, etc) is that a strong Sister is free to make her own decisions, including when to sidestep traditional Tower protocol. The first major hint of this is when Moiraine sees Egwene hiding Rand in Fal Dara, and comments that she will be Amyrlin someday, based on her ability to take initiative and act.

Now, Cadsuane would clearly be among the strongest ever in this trait, given her age and raw strength in Saidar (it is often suggested that channeling ability and initiative are directly proportional). Her opinion of "what is best for the Tower", may very well be to see the Dragon Reborn moved along a certain path in preparation for the Last Battle. Nothing else matters more, and Cadsuane has said so many times. It is clear that she has a plan, that she knows the path upon which she intends to nudge Rand. If she believes that certain steps along that path would cause Rand to resist strongly if he was aware of them, it would explain her unwillingness to share the intent behind some of her actions.

None of that excuses her manner or her methods. Of course we all realize that open and transparent communication would save Team Light massive amounts of trouble. But each character from within their own POV has been given reasons (reasonable or not) for not completely trusting those they are otherwise working with.

Cadsuane filters her decisions through her past experiences with:

~ White Tower leadership
~ Channeling Males
~ Aes Sedai behaviors, fears, prejudices
~ International politics, cultures, superstitions

all of which have apparently led her to keep her own counsel regarding motives and goals, while using what she knows best (intimidation, humiliation, general button-pushing) to accomplish them. Once again, this isn't said to relieve her of accountability for the results and consequences of her actions, but to perhaps see inside why she does what she does.

I recall that throughout much of the re-read to date, I was chagrined at how often comments referred to Rand as hopelessly nutso and out of touch with himself, much less anything or anyone around him. While that became partially true following his contact with the TP, it was a very inaccurate portrayal of his mental and emotional state up through this point in the story. Yes, he has had bad moments of poor control, but for the great majority of events his decision-making has been well reasoned and appropriate to the situation, indeed often very insightful and wise beyond his years. Yet very few people were on his side. Now, with the advent of the Wicked Green of the West, everyone has jumped on the "Yay Rand" bandwagon. No chance that was Jordan's purpose in employing Cadsuane, is there?

For the record, I don't like Cadsuane, but I'm glad she's there. Somebody needed to come along and make Nynaeve seem reasonable, right?
Thomas Keith
167. insectoid
Blind @146: LOL! Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...

Tek @151: Yes, jumping up and down and swearing helps a lot! (Really!) Show that computer who's boss! ;)

Sam @156: Yes, but we're going to be watching you more carefully from now on... ;)

Free @165: Well said sir! You're nominated for referee.

Ellie Virgo
168. Egglie
Hi everyone, is been a while, but here’s my two cents on Cadsuane. At this point in the read I don’t dislike her at all. I don’t mean that I want to be BFFs or anything - she is rude and hypocritical and frustrating but the character has potential. Slightly disappointed in her by the end of tGS though.

I still think that it is a big assumption that the thing Caddy wants to teach Rand and the thing that he and all the Asha’man must learn from her are one and the same. I don’t believe it is explicitly stated anywhere. But, the general consensus seems to be that, even though Jordan has taught us better than to let this kind of thing go unquestioned, we are letting it slide on this occasion.

So let’s assume she is going to teach them to laugh and cry. I also think it is a stretch to say that Rands personal revelations at the end of tGS are down to Cads. I would say Rand learnt that himself or, at most, that Tam taught it to him. I know the argument is that Cadsuane orchestrated that meeting but she gave Tam a script that almost got him killed – and I don’t think that would have helped. If Tam had followed her plan then things would probably be far worse so he helped in spite of her rather than because of her. But, again, I seem to be in the minority here too.

So, let’s assume that she will teach them to laugh and cry and that she has done this, or at least made a start, with Rand already – would someone please explain to me how she is teaching all the Asha’man anything whatsoever?

Who says that all the Asha,man need to learn how to laugh and cry anyway? This has always puzzled me. We have a very detailed description of how Rands exceptional circumstances lead him to wall himself up emotionally which is obviously something that must be addressed before he can become the saviour of the world that we all know he will be one day. But many of the Asha'man are married and bonded to their wives or appear to be quite capable of building relationships with their newly bonded AS. They have problems, sure, but not the same problems as Rand. I really don’t get how, or indeed why, Cadsuane would be responsible for teaching them all to laugh and cry.

I admit that I don’t have a better suggestion on what she will teach them and I am quite willing to entertain the notion that this is indeed what must happen but I just don’t see it going that way myself and I would be very interested to read the views of the resident “gurus” on this.

sorry about wall of text.
169. Freelancer

Good points all. Allow me, however, to refer to an answer Brandon gave to a question I presented to him. (paraphrasing)

Q. Has Min's vision, that Cadsuane would teach Rand and all the Asha'man a lesson, which they would not like learning, been completed?

A. Partially.

(The exact question and answer can be found on the TGS spoiler thread part one, but I don't remember exactly where, and good luck finding it.)

I'm with you in not getting how Cadsuane is considered responsible for anything he's recently learned, but there it is. I do interpret that answer as being connected to his true, heartfelt laughter on Dragonmount, which naturally presumes that learning real tears is yet to come.
Sam Mickel
170. Samadai
We all know that both Perrin and Mat can feel Rands Ta'veren pull and have mentioned it more than once. So it is their Ta'veren nature combining with his that causes that feeling, right?
If that is true(and I am not quite sure of this)then I wonder if Talmanes is ta'veren as well. He is the only other person that I can recall saying he could feel a need to be with one of the three (RMP) other than Mat or Perrin. He says this to Egwene in Out On the Ice in the Path of Daggers.

So can anyone here tell me that there are other characters that feel one of the boys Ta'veren pull besides Talmanes
Ron Garrison
171. Man-0-Manetheran
blind and toryx:
Sorry, no, I wasn't referring to either of you. Your arguments were detailed and thoughtful, and whether I agreed or not was irrelevant. At least you had an argument that was considered. It's the piling-on that annoys me and the blanket dismissal of "she's rude." Well, rude is subjective. One person's blunt is another person's rude, I guess.

I'm sorry if anyone was offended, but I get annoyed with unsubstantiated opinions passed off as arguments. Worse is the "I skip over her parts because I don't like her." "Why" is a mystery to me.

Free and Egglie:
Excellent examples of the thoughtful and considered argument. Thank you.
Tess Laird
172. thewindrose
Samadai - I don't think he mentions it, but Elyas shows up at just the right time for Perrin, in that wonderfully short kidnapping arc;)

And I forgot to mention this in the last post.
"Berelain, I don't know what else I can do to guarantee Mayene for you, but I will write out any-"Colors swirled so stongly in his head that his tongue froze. Lews Therin cackled. A woman who knows the danger and isn't afraid is a treasure only a madman would spurn.

I believe here is where he came up with the idea to send Berelain off with Perrin - that is why the colors swirled so strongly.
In the chapter To Be Alone:
Putting Berelain at the rear, as far from Faile as he could manage, had seemed a good notion, but he was going to face this every bloody evening. Burn Rand! {...}"As far as anyone's eyes-and-ears back in Cairhien know," he said loudly, "I've been banished, and the First of Mayene is on her way back home, and the rest of you have just disappeared like fog in the sun."

175. Freelancer
How weird. The system is flagging posts as spam for reasons I cannot fathom. I've tried twice to answer M-o-M@171, and both attempts have vaporized. I suspect that they will appear early tomorrow when someone in NY is at work to review them.

Thus explaining the gap from thewindrose to this.
Thomas Keith
176. insectoid
The Pattern is breaking down! Run for your lives!!


EDIT: Heh... post B0 in hex... ;)

Rob Munnelly
177. RobMRobM
Free - several others have reported this type of problem as well. Bummer.

Toryx and Blind - what MoM said at 171.

Toryx - my VT trip last week achieved the outcome I was seeking. Free Press article is up already. Yee hah - love it when bad actors get spanked (sorry Leigh).

Barry T
178. blindillusion
Free ~ Nicely said.

Egglie ~ Yep. Looking forward to what comes.

M-o-M, I know...but I do enjoy stirring the pot. Never know what's gonna float up to the top.

And Wind...that's a nice spot there regarding what will eventually be Ta'veren-O-Vision.

Rob ~ See: M-o-M above. =) I'd list the people I enjoy getting into discussions with...but the list would be rather long. Differing view-points...without the annoying presence of flame-ups...make this site worth coming back to...pretty much every hour I'm in front of a computer.

Oh, and Leigh of course.
Sam Mickel
179. Samadai

I know he shows up, but if i remember correctly he said the wolves told him Perrin was in the area not that he felt pulled there.

I am just thinking that Talmanes is in a pretty exclusive club of people that can feel Ta'veren pull. So could he be Ta'veren? probaly not but the clues say yes.
John Massey
180. subwoofer
What the deuce? Tor is cracking under the strain? Say it isn't so. Or is it a case where the spam filter was set to "frag" to prevent Uggs and TNF from taking up residence and we all are suffering as a result?

Or it is that Leigh person, with her power to attract viruses? Her post has pulled a Matrix and is bringing the system down.

Just sayin'.

@Insectoid- Ghostbusters rock! Yay!

@Blind-::sniff sniff:: that was so beautiful. And it is telescopic too. I have a long arm similar, but what a wonderful thought:)

We are going far afield, and far ahead but...

There was a stunned silence from the benches. Romanda felt a lump of ice in her middle. Fifty-one sisters? Bonded by Asha'man? It was an abomination!...
..."But how could fifty-one sisters come to be... bonded to Asha'man?" She leaned forward as if his answer would be pitched as low.
The boy shrugged, still angry. It was of no matter to him, Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai. "Elaida sent them to destroy us. The Dragon Reborn has a standing order that no Aes Sedai can be harmed unless she tries to harm one of us first, so Taim decided to capture and bond them before they had the chance."
So. They were Elaida's supporters. Shoudl that make a difference? Somehow it did, a little. But any sisters held by Asha'man brought it all back to a matter of equality, and that was intolerable.

-Knife of Dreams, Call to a Sitting.

For me, that means a prejudice exists amongst the Aes Sedai and that the old guard still view any man channeling as an aberration. That needs to change and as Toryx suggested, maybe Eggy can focus on changing that stereotype in the future. RAFO

And I dunno, maybe Caddy does stand-up in front of the Asha'man? That is her way of teaching laughter or tears, depending on how bad she is.

Ron Garrison
181. Man-0-Manetheran
sub @ 136
“Tropical weather for winter games.” What a bummer. I heard this reference earlier that it had been 22 years since Canada hosted a winter games. I couldn’t believe that it has been that long since the Calgary Olympics! Wow! I remember k.d. lang performed at the closing ceremonies doing some of her western material. The Leonard Cohen song, Hallelujah she did at the Vancouver opening ceremonies was one of the highlights of the evening.
182. MasterAlThor

I understand what your are saying about people just posting without backing up the arguement. I try to, but I also try to keep my post light and upbeat.

No offense taken.


I laughed hard when you punked us. Now I will double check everything you say. Still funny though.


Glad you had a safe trip and made it back.

Mis-so and so,

I love all the things that you do with your name. Kinda like alreadymad.


Long time no see. Does this mean we are getting the band back together?


I see you. Love the idea of there being a chatroom on to discuss WOT. Howsabout that?


Did you manage to blackout the west coast or did you just increase the effects of global warming over Vancouver?

And in the end, I get by with a little help, cause I'm the taxman.

Ron Garrison
183. Man-0-Manetheran
MAT: "light and upbeat" is good!

Tai'Shar Manetheren
184. MasterAlThor

I said I try...doesn't always work.

Thomas Keith
185. insectoid
MAT @182: Nice mixing of lyrics there. ;)

Joseph Blaidd
186. SteelBlaidd
In all the complaining about Cadsuane being a bully I think its important that we remember tha Rand can be a bit of a bully too.

Example from Liegh's review of tSR Ch9
On the evening of the third day, Rand is in his chambers with Meilan and Sunamon, where he tosses the treaty draft they gave him back in their faces, infuriated that they had used his idea to send grain to Illian to try and land two thousand troops led by Torean on Mayene soil. Meilan says smoothly that Torean has interests in Mayene.

“He has an interest in forcing his attentions on a woman who won’t look at him!” Rand shouted. “Grain for ships, I said! No soldiers. And certainly no bloody Torean! Have you even spoken to Berelain?”

They blinked at him as if they did not understand the words. It was too much. He snatched at saidin; the vellum in Meilan’s arms erupted into flame. With a yell, Meilan hurled the fiery bundle into the bare fireplace and hurriedly brushed at sparks and scorch marks on his red silk coat. Sunamon stared at the burning sheets, which were crackling and turning black, with his mouth hanging open.

Rand tells them, suddenly quiet, that if they do not bring Berelain exactly the treaty he told them to, he will hang them both, and then throws them out.

He just tends to bully people we don't like,like the High Lords of Tear.Though he is not above bullying his friends either.

In FoH ch 51
for example, he bullies Mat and scares Selinde. He bullies Asmodean all over the place. He is, by his own admission in this very chapter, "Not a Nice Person." But as he is our Jerkass we tend to give him a little slack.

Now I admit that the way Cads is going about doing her thing is not really working. But she has to guess at what's happening in his head, and she has no one around who can tell her how far of his meds poor Rand has got.

Nynaeve knows him mostly as "one of the boys" and "Tam's Son." All of Min's interaction with him is post Channeling and all but about 5 minutes worth after he starts playing the role of a Lord and being the Dragon Reborn. Mat and Perrin at this point have minimal interaction with him and zip with Cadsuane, Tam is realy the first person with sufficient experience with both Rand and PTSD to really recognize just how far round the bend he has gone.
Alice Arneson
187. Wetlandernw
SteelBlaidd @186 - Nice point. There are many times, past, present and future, where Rand is Not Nice At All. As you say, though, he's mostly Not Nice to people we don't like, so we cheer for him. And overall, we're in his head and see all his reasons for what he does, so we forgive much. We're supposed to, of course, but still...

On an only loosely related note... I have a new looney theory for y'all.

We've spent the last 20 years seeing how wrong people can be when they say something is impossible, right? Like how stilling can't be healed, and how a woman can't teach a man anything about channeling. We've been told since book 1 or 2 that "a fish can't teach a bird to fly" or something like that. And we all know how very different saidin and saidar are: one must be wrestled and forcibly controlled, while the other is guided by surrendering to it.

We've talked a lot about the "laughter and tears" and "Rand and all the Asha'man need to learn something from Cadsuane". I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been thinking that "getting in touch with their emotions," so to speak, was key to surviving the taint. But that's been cleansed, and Min's viewing hasn't changed. And her viewings are always right. So now I'm thinking... Maybe what Rand and the Asha'man need to learn from Cadsuane is how to involve their emotions in their channeling. We don't know much about the others, but Rand has always done "the flame and the void" in order to be able to control saidin. What if that's the wrong way about it? What if they need to learn to quit blocking their emotions out, and make use of their capacity for emotion and humanity to fully control and use saidin?

Or, 180 away, what if the thing they need to learn from her is totally unrelated to the laughter and tears? What if she's picked up some little nugget in her research that will give them the big clue on how to link with the women in such a way that the TP can't touch them this time?

The things I think of while cleaning the kitchen....
188. GoldsteinLives

As per earlier in this thread, it is safe to say I'm not a Cads hater. That said, her bullying of Rand and of the Aes Sedai is qualitatively different than Rand's bullying of the Lords of Tear. (Rands sometimes nasty behavior toward his friends, and rectifying that, seems to be a theme of the books so I think we can all agree that it is not a good thing.)

Cads seems to bully the Aes Sedai whether she has a really good reason to or not, and Rand simply because she thinks she knows what is best for him. She's patronizing.

Rand bullys the Lords of Tear because they are all manipulating things out of either crass personal political gain, or old cultural prejudices. His bullying comes of a need to create something that is a stronger motivator than gain or prejudice... namely, fear of him. And he was right to do it.

The interesting thing is, Rand will have to make some of the same kinds of hard decisions he's had to make before, he'll have to kill and send others to their deaths just as he has before. Even after he relearns "laughter and tears". The difference isn't that he doesn't use these tactics, the difference is that he uses them for the right reasons, has reservations about them, and wishes for (and searches for) another way before pulling that trigger.
189. MasterAlThor
Look it is 12:30am here on the East Coast. Where are all the Califor-nee-I-A and the rest of you Pacific Coasters?????

No action huh....

There's nothing for me here....
So I will disapper....

Thomas Keith
190. insectoid
Wet @187: I like your theory! Makes some sense to me.
Those are the kind of things I think of when I'm trying to fall asleep. ;)

MAT @189: I'm still here... Really! :)

191. JanDSedai
Mostly making a post, so someone else'e second post in the last half-dozen doesn't get spammed.

I've always taken the characters as they are written, not playing favorites. And I have to admit, BWS has trouble with third person POVs. But I always liked Mat, and always liked Rand, even when he was being an equine rectum.
Thomas Keith
192. insectoid
Jan @191:
...and always liked Rand, even when he was being an equine rectum.
I like that! That pretty much sums him up for books 7-12. ;)

EDIT: Heh... Post 0xC0 FTW! ::foolish grin::

EDIT²: Time for Sub to grab 2 Hunny...

Joseph Blaidd
193. SteelBlaidd
Some very good points, though I think Tam would dispute the idea that motivation makes it excusable. Cadsuane is trying to ensure the safty of the world after all.

My main goal was to point out that saying that "X is a bad character because they are a bully!" is insufficient as an argument for dislike.
194. MasterAlThor

I would just wonder how Cadsuane would be able to teach men how to abandon the Flame and the Void? Rand discibes seizing Saidin as like wrestling with a raging river of molten lava or some such.

I see the FaV as a concentration trick. Tam uses it and he taught it to Rand. I would think that he has to feed all his emotions and everything else into the flame in order to concentrate enough to seize Saidin.

If Cadsuane taught him a different way (not possible, IMHO, but I can see the foreshadowing on the wall as well as anyone) he may just get burnt out, Dragon Reborn or no.

Help me if you can....

196. JanDSedai
I guess it is only a co-incidence that some of Caddy's ter'angreal are in the shape of fishes and birds.
Alice Arneson
198. Wetlandernw
JanDSedai @196 - LOVE it!! :) Never even thought of that when I wrote the previous. Hmmm.

MasterAlThor @197 - Hey, I called it a looney theory. I was just musing on various aspects while my hands were busy, and... it wandered in. Thought I'd pass it along. Like I said, anything we're told is impossible is, by definition, suspect. It was the only thing I could come up with for fish-and-bird stuff, and I was really looking for something beyond just "make him feel things" for Cadsuane. Lots of people have the capacity to stir emotion in him, and I'm pretty sure someone besides Cadsuane could do a better job of just the laughter and tears thing. But we know absolutely that he has something to learn from Cadsuane. So... what?
199. JanDSedai
Maybe the "thing" Caddy has to teach will involve two halves of the True Power working together. She may be integral to the reunification of saidin and saidar.
Bonnie Andrews
200. misfortuona
Obvious and flagrant attempt to grab 200 and steal Sub’s fun ;)

Actually I just had to point out the obvious answer to Sam’s question @170 about Ta'veren pull.
Verrin. I know TGS, and possibly a lie, but still, she claims to have been pulled rather extremely to meet with him.

Insectoid @167 If I’m going to go to all the effort to jump up and down and swear at this stupid box at least give me the credit. ;))

@MOM I apologize for my disregard for any and all validation of my theories, but hey I’m lazy and I don’t mind being told why I’m wrong so...

@Blind glad to see you’re back, sorry you’re under the weather. The gratuitous sharing of various illnesses is one of the great joys of having children.

@Free glad to see your insights again, but I kind of like life without a referee.

@All I've figured it out. As long as I ration my posts and avoid full blown Wall-0-Texts, the faries will let me say whatever I want on this thread.

Bonnie Andrews
202. misfortuona
I really like this theory, especially since we've had the birdy-fish hair-thingy correlation pointed out. Not chance that IMO, but maybe not related to this. Will ponder the birds and fishes some more.
Anyway it's 4am and I digress.

The flaw I see in this particular theory is that if a man could channel Saidin the 'feminine' way, then wouldn't one of them have managed to do so by now?

So here I go again playing my own DO. Of course most of the guys who learned prior to the BT are dead, and those post are learning from the tower, so maybe not.

Mis-what the deuce are we supposed to call those things in Cad’s hair anyway
203. Joanne
Hi all
I stayed out of the Big Cadsuane Discussion these last two posts because I am kind of neutral on the issue. Many good arguments have been made for both sides.

One think I do like about her is that she does value skill above strength, as is proven by her support for Daigian who is very weak in the power but intelligent. (and also in her support for Min re. Beldeine in the discussion at the end of TGS)

This is a virtue not often found in Aes Sedai
Birgit F
204. birgit
Rand created the Ashaman as weapons and thought he could not afford to remain human. What Cads has to teach them is that they need human feelings (symbolized by tears and laughter) because they need to fight for something important or there will be another Breaking. A living weapon without a purpose will just go on destroying even when there are no more enemies left.
John Massey
205. subwoofer
Yes... I'm going to grab post 200 at 4:54 in the morning... that's it, good plan, except I was sleeping! Had to get up at 5 to walk the dog, while still asleep, so that wasn't gonna happen.

I just wanted to say that why does it have to come down to a Cads or Rand? Rand had his moments of being a dink. So does Cads, but from opposite ends of the scale. Rand is young, loutish at times and rude. Caddy is old, crusty, curmudgeony and rude. End result is the same. Maybe what Caddy does is hold a mirror up to Rand and say "see? Look, this is how you are behaving." Mind you, self reflecting, especially for Caddy is tough. She does some when breaking Semi, but needs to go deeper.

Rand has rebounded and we will RAFO about Rand on the upswing. Caddy, well, possibly the same thing will happen too. Maybe she will have an Ingtar moment. One could hope.

Barrettes perhaps?

Marcus W
206. toryx
I don't think that whatever Cadsuane has to teach Rand and the Asha'man has to be all that world changing. I actually agree with the suggestion that what Cadsuane wants to teach Rand isn't necessarily what they need to (or will) learn.

I definitely don't think it's using emotion to control Saidin. They actually are doing just fine controlling Saidin already. Besides, not even women really use any emotion to channel. Part of the whole point of getting Nynaeve to break her block was that you're not supposed to be angry or upset or excited while channeling Saidar either.

I suspect that what the Asha'man, at least, need to learn (and are learning already) is that they need to work with the Aes Sedai to succeed. Just as the AS need to learn to work with the Asha'man. That means that both sides need to put aside their animosity and suspicion, not to mention their arrogance, and realize that they're both working for the same goals and capable of pursuing it together.

Unfortunately, this is something that Cadsuane needs to learn as well.
Jamie Watkins
207. Treesinger
Since we are still in the Cads discussion. I think that the reason she fled the WT to avoid being selected as the Amar was because she feared the BA. Remember, that was the reason that Moiraine was so secretive about the search for the DR. Wasn't everyone who heard the prophecy murdered by the Black Ajah? By avoiding the WT,Cads could avoid being attacked by the BA.

I also believe that the something that she is going to teach the Ashamen that "they will not like" is much more event originated. Something big is going to happen at the BT and Cads is going to have a "Moment of Awsomeness" then.
Barry T
208. blindillusion
I'd agree with Toryx. Channeling saidar is about surrender, not emotion. And channeling saidin is about...conquest(?), not an emotional disconnect.

Hey…don't look at me like that...Mr Jordan wrote it that way.

*walks off muttering..."'tis just not fair, ya know? I didn't come up with the magic system that is channeling"....*
Tricia Irish
209. Tektonica
Good morning all. I am really enjoying reading all your musings, but I seem to be so embroiled in events at home, life, as it were, that I'm not having much time to "muse" myself. (And the Olympics!) Keep up the good work/words and when I feel like I've got something new to contribute, I'll be back.

Funny how being in the moment takes me out of my head.

Thanks all!
Bonnie Andrews
211. misfortuona
Hey spam watch for mis, aint life grand. It's probably because I included a link so you all could vote for tGS for the legend award.
Actually forgot to check if the link worked so this might be better.

So trying to remember what I said, because so far I don't see any of the spamed posts re-appearing.

Barretts yes thankyou!!

Probably the best explanation for why Cad's lesson could be the tears and laughter thing. This is why we don't want Robots going to war for us. (Well really we don't want anyone having to, but that's a whole different disscussion.)

I don't think RJ wrote Cads as a coward, many thnings but not that. No I think she left because she had things to do that would not be done if she were stuck in Tar Valan.

Defensive much. I think someone needs a hug this morning. Not from me though, you're contagious ;)

Miss your comments. Hope your back soon.

I think that covered most everything.

Question of the day. (Cad's hair thingy didn't count)
So what might have things have been like if Cads had become Amyrilan?
Would she have been different?
How about the tower?

Mis-promoting discussion (Because it needs promoting?)
Marcus W
212. toryx
Misfortuona @ 211:

Some would say that avoiding the BA is prudence, not cowardice.

Still, I agree, Cadsuane isn't the type to be intimidated by the likes of them. More likely she just didn't want to have her freedom restricted by being Amyrlin. For all her love of giving orders, she sure doesn't like following rules.

It's difficult to say what might have happened if Cadsuane had become Amyrlin. Given her abilities, I kind of have to doubt that the Tower would have ever been split, and a whole lot of mistakes probably would have been avoided. Assuming, of course, that the BA didn't succeed at killing her, which they well may have done.
Elizabeth Gingles
213. Spera
I'm not sure many Aes Sedai would stay in the tower if Cads was Amrylim.
Barry T
214. blindillusion
Mis ~

Defensive? Me? Naw...never. And I'm feeling better actually...thank God. I swear...I was never sick in AZ. Deserts...good for one thing I suppose.

Hum...what to call Cadsuane's hair ornaments...
1) Hattrick
2) HA! hairnet

If Cadsuane had become Amyrlin: Tigraine would have probably never been able to go to the Aiel. Moiraine would probably be sitting on the Sun Throne. Siuan would have never been Amyrlin, thus never been stilled, thus never grown into the character we all love. No Tower split which means no Egwene poised to change things.

Cadsuane? Different? Well, I'd imagine she'd be thinking more of the Tower's interests than the world's. (Yes, I can say it...while I think Cadsuane embodies everything that is wrong with the Tower...I do see her as having the world's interests in mind...not so much the Tower's.)

The Tower? Well, I cannot see it being all that different really. The rules there are already pretty strict. But perhaps the whole "Power based on strength as opposed to ability (and competence =))" concept would have fallen to the wayside. Have to say...that would have been a good thing.
Ron Garrison
215. Man-0-Manetheran
Morning all! Lots of good posts this morning!

re. avoiding being selected as Amyrlin: I think it's pretty obvious that Cads prefers to do her own thing, and being chief administrator of a large organization requires a different mind set. It's one thing to think how cool it would be to be the POTUS, but really, who amongst us would really want the job? Not me!

re. laughter and tears: I've always had it in my head that the phrase was symbolic, not literal, so Wet's musings seem pretty plausable. (By the way, I've got a lot of housework that needs to be done, wet. You might come up with even greater theories...)
216. MasterAlThor

In answer to your question, I think that Cadsuane would have been killed by the BA. It was probably already in the cards for Suian. And remember "that vileness 20yrs ago"?

I am pretty sure that some of those Amyrlins were pretty tough women. They had to be disposed of, and Cadsuane being a legend in her own time would have had to take the big sleep in order for the BA to accomplish any of their goals.

So, that's what I think. What do you think?

"singing....Dance wit the Jak O' Shadows"

Alice Arneson
217. Wetlandernw
toryx @206 - I quite agree that the Asha'man need to learn to channel in cooperation with the women, but they're learning that anyway. Granted that Cadsuane led in some of it at the cleansing, I don't see that as being The Thing they need to learn from her. My looney theory was totally aimed toward trying to figure out what she, and she alone, can teach the men. I don't really see her in a unique position that gives her opportunity to teach, so I have to ask: What unique knowledge does she possess? (Of course, it could be some blaze-of-glory-resulting-from-a-bad-move, so they learn not to do that again, but it doesn't seem likely, does it?)

So there's my "question of the day" for you all: What unique attribute does Cadsuane possess that makes her the only one who can teach this lesson? The corollary, of course, is: What is the lesson? Looney theories, forth! Let's hear it!
Juan Avila
218. Cumadrin
the hair thingy does have a name.

tGS Ch. 22 p 338

But . . . the fool Aes Sedai no longer regarded her as they had. Semirhage hadn't changed, but they had. Somehow, in one swoop, that cursed woman with the paralis-net in her hair had unraveled Semirhage's authority with the entire lot of them.

i'm assuming that's the whole lot of fishes/birds/moons/stars/comets (i think i heard all of those mentioned in it) but it could be simply the one that disrupted Semirhage's illusion, but i don't think so.
Marcus W
219. toryx
Well Cadsuane is chief in her profession at pushing people around, but I'm pretty sure that's not what she wants people to learn. Nor is it something that Rand or Asha'man are particularly deficient at themselves.

I still think that sometimes Min's viewings and other prophecies just aren't that earth shattering. After all, look at Min's viewing about Siuan and Bryne. I don't know about you, but I thought it was pretty disappointing that it was really centered around one, small instant in time. In the end, it was a simple concept; after all those months that they spent together, they just needed to be in the same place at the same time for one instant.

The prophecy, so to speak, sounded larger than the reality.

The thing is, the books are full of small events that pass by almost unnoticed next to the larger ones. As a result we tend to expect that everything is going to be tied to a Moment of Awesome (to the point that we've actually created a name for it) or be made up of earthshaking importance. But the reality of things are often smaller than they're built up to be.

I think that's the way it is with Cadsuane and her lesson.
James Jones
220. jamesedjones
217 Wetlander

Even with the BS answer of "partially" for what she had to teach Rand and the Ashamen (pun intended), I still believe that her lesson won't be anything special. It'll just be another issue with lack of communication that makes this lesson fall to her. After all this build-up, there's no way we're not going to be disappointed.

Or... ditto toryx 219, now that I've refreshed my page. :)
Ron Garrison
221. Man-0-Manetheran
Well, Wet, I think you stated it correctly when you asked "What unique knowledge does she possess?" My money says it's knowledge she received from Norla while "earning" her paralis-net. (Cumadrin: thanks for that, but are you confident of the spelling? I can't find a definition in English.)
Marcus W
222. toryx
Just out of curiousity (due to the whole Norla issue that keeps coming up), has everyone except me read New Spring?

Actually to clarify, I read the original novella published in Legends and wasn't particularly impressed or interested so never bothered to read the whole novel. It's sitting on my bookshelf with the rest of the books but I'm just waiting to find out what happened via the re-read.

I ask because it sounds like people rely on NS a lot for extra information and theory generation and I can't help but wonder if I'm the only one who didn't bother reading the whole thing.

Along the same lines, did NS make readers like Cadsuane more or less than her initial appearance in CoS?
Ron Garrison
223. Man-0-Manetheran
toryx: New Spring is definitely worth reading! I'm glad Leigh will be re-reading it in the order it was published. I loved hearing the early history of Siuan and Moiraine. Not only does Cadsuane make an appearance, but Elaida gets to show us that she has been a B**** from Day 1. And Moiraine's bonding of Lan is a favorite moment for me out of all the books.

NS didn't really change my opinion of Cads. I've found her an enjoyable character from the moment she walked into the throne room and made it clear she answered to no one.
Juan Avila
224. Cumadrin
@ M-o-M #221

i quoted directly from the book, word for word. if i had to guess i'd say either the name has some significance we don't know yet but will be revealed later, it has no significance, or it was un-named as of tGS and Sanderson took liberties.

as for Cads' unique knowledge, she was at the time possibly the only person to know of Callandor's flaw when she told Rand of it in tPoD. it's pretty significant imo, but i've been unable to think of how it would be important to all the Asha'man except as a metaphor that the Asha'man will need to link with Aes Sedai, literally and metaphorically.
Alice Arneson
225. Wetlandernw
Cumadrin @218 - excellent find! I can see I need to read TGS a couple more times... I'd forgotten that was in there. Next question is, knowing what it's called, we don't have to call it "hair thingy" any more, but will we actually type out "paralis-net" or just abbreviate to PN? ;)

toryx @219 - Yeah, isn't it funny how many times the fulfillment of prophecy is such a small thing? The fulfillment of Min's visions tend to be even more so. That said, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if The Lesson turns out to be, well, less than Awesome. I think it will be significant, but a) maybe not as big as we expect and b) not particularly momentous at the time. It might even slip past us completely, at least on a first read.

jamesedjones @220 - Hey there! Where ya been, dude? I think I just lumped my response to your thoughts in with what I said to toryx...

I think my current view is colored by the amount of time I've spent thinking about all this over the last couple of weeks. If I had time now, I'd go through all the books just for the Cadsuane chapters so I could sort out more of her character, actions and thoughts from a fresh perspective. I've changed my perception of her somewhat in discussing these two chapters; now I'm curious to see whether the new perception holds up through the rest of the books. Maybe my original perspective was more correct... Or maybe not. I'm also curious as to whether the viewing is made as important throughout the books as we've made it on this discussion. Time will tell... Or more accurately, the re-read will tell.
Ron Garrison
226. Man-0-Manetheran
Cumadrin: Thanks for the clarification. The other option is that it was a word that RJ made up. The dictionary offered, "Did you mean paralysis?" RJ liked to make up names that are somewhat similar to a descriptive word for that character/item. One of my favs is Weiramon. I call him Wearyman. I could believe a paralis might paralyze a weave. The P-Net did something to Semi's weave of illusion.
227. JanDSedai
Re: Toryx @222-
I read the novella version of New Spring and enjoyed it, but I only read the novel version once. The Moe bonding Lan story was good, but I also thought it worked just as well as a throw-away line in tSR. The novel seemed to me to be an exercise in reinforcing characterizations without having to read between the lines. I.E., spelling it out like we were too dumb realize the first time. The plot with the Black Ajah was done explicitly to show the danger Moe has been in since the beginning, like we couldn't extrapolate that after reading the novels. This is more of a juvinile novel.
Steven Pattingale
228. Pattingale
Goldie @ 157 and Jan at @ 164

My two cents/loonie theory (inflation):
What if when Rand kneels to the Crystal Throne he's kneeling to Mat?
stephanie keenan
229. adriel_moonstar
Rude, strong, knowledgeable, whatever...Cadsuane's most unique attribute is that she is SOPA (Senior Officer Present Afloat for those of you not fluent in navyspeak.) Egwene has come a long way as Amyrlin, but Cads is probably still the most influential living AS.

I think/hope that the "thing" that she is going to teach everyone is that the time has come to put aside their prejudices, lay their cards on the table, and work together. (Egwene might propose it, but without Cads to implement, it will be the end of the fourth age before the AS go along.)

And at this point the only way to do that is to lead by example which will be a prime example of "this hurts me more than it hurts you".
Bonnie Andrews
230. misfortuona
Paralis-net thanks, though I think I like hattrick.
Glad you're better :) You can have a hug now if you want ;)
Well Cad's is
1. Old... er a.. more experienced in general
2. She's had the most success at capturing/dealing with male channelers
3. She's got the Norla factor (what ever that might be)
I don't want to include bossy and antagonistic, because I think we've done that to death.
Rand already knows how to play the flute
Nope I still got nothin. RAFO?

For what it's worth, I think Cad's would have made a good Amyrilin, made for a stronger tower.
Maybe people would have left the tower under her, but I doubt it. The woman does seem competent, blindly so, but mostly competent.
I actually forgot about the three Amyrilin's dying in succession thing. Still though wasn't it prior, like a lot prior, to the whole vileness thing that they wanted to raise her? The Amyrilin is allowed to step down isn’t she? Couldn’t she have done a term or five, and then retired to her roses anyway?

Agree with MOM, NS is worth reading, and yes loved the bonding scene. As for Cads, nothing really changed my opinion of her in that book, but I might be mis-remembering.

Mis- does anyone else find the geek dating service banner particularly amusing given the forsaken survey on this thread?
Ron Garrison
231. Man-0-Manetheran
SOPA! Love that Adriel. Around my office we use PMK: Person Most Knowledgable. Meaning: Who is here that can remember dealing with this before?
Alice Arneson
232. Wetlandernw
Good grief. I get one wall posted, only to find there's more stuff I want to talk about! *sigh*

RE: New Spring, yeah, you should read it. I've only done it once, unlike the rest of the books, though. I think I was expecting something different, so I was disappointed with it. IIRC, when I heard it was a prequel I was expecting to learn more about Luc, Tigraine, Isam, Tam, and probably some others; it focused exclusively on Moiraine, Siuan and Lan. Knowing that, it's a pretty good source of info regarding Moiraine & Siuan's early careers and the major event that started them on the paths we see in the other books. (Gives a slightly different view of Lan, for that matter.) It also gives some insights into the workings of the WT, and some character background for a bunch of the other AS. Can you tell, it's not my favorite? :) And I don't think it affected my view of Cadsuane, since I don't really remember much of what it said about her.

Cumadrin @ 224 - Hey, I'd forgotten that! Cadsuane was the only one who knew about the flaw in Callandor. So... maybe that's the "partial" answer, and everyone has been incorrectly assuming that we were supposed to attribute the "laughter on Dragonmount" scene to her. A lot of people have expressed disappointment that his laughter was credited to her as part of The Lesson; maybe it wasn't! It seemed awfully... unspecific. I have to admit it was hard to see how it could be directly attributed to Cadsuane, anyway. Nice to think it might NOT have been... Food for thought, certainly.

And now there are more posts to read, but I'm going to put this up before I read them.
Bonnie Andrews
234. misfortuona
Gosh darn it. Two spam flags in one day.

All I wanted to know is:
If Lanfear died 'through the looking glass,' is one of the Finns now wearing a Forsaken skin suit?

Is this random? I'm begining to get a complex here.

Mis-wonders the strangest things

Blind-ly following is fine with me
James Jones
235. jamesedjones
Re: Paralis-Net

Can we just call it a hair-net and be done with it? Haven't seen any lunch ladies in the series, so I think we're safe from any confusion...
Barry T
236. blindillusion
Mis - =)

Hmm...a Lanfear skin suit? Well, if so...I'll bet the 'Finn wearing it is the envy of all the others.
Bonnie Andrews
237. misfortuona
Who the heck started this darn hair-thingy discussion in the first place?
Yeah and I'm sorry, really...but the thing is
JDJ, I don't think it is a net actually despite the name.
It seems to me that it's a collection of fish et al, that Cads arranges in her hair, otherwise she wouldn't have earned them one at a time, Maybe.
Uggg. I think Sub's barret description actually fits best, a bunch of clips that she arranges on her head.
But I think PN would cover it for everyone anyway.

Mis-slinking into the bunker before someone throws a fish thingy

Edit Blind- LOL aint you a stinker
Ron Garrison
238. Man-0-Manetheran
P-Net: Yes, I think the "net" part is really more of the net of weaves or counter-weaves that they produce.
James Jones
239. jamesedjones
237 misfortuona

Don't be sorry. I'm very hard to offend.

But I'm just being difficult right now. This was a fun button to push, and I have always just thought of it as a hair-net, despite the descriptions (probably brought on by my opinion of old Cads). No matter what folks call it, though, I think we'll all get it. :P
Bonnie Andrews
240. misfortuona
Yes exactly, and P-Net is better, someone might think PN refers to Cads pink nighty and then where would we be?


Marcus W
241. toryx
JanDSedai @ 227:

That was the impression I got of it from the novella as well.

Wetlandernw @ 232:

That wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement. :) I don't know...I'm not really interested in any of those things. I think we get plenty about the workings of the Tower and Lan and Moiraine's relationship from the mainstream novels. I don't really need any more detail.

Besides, the whole AS final test was about as disappointing to me as the midiclorians (or whatever the hell those things are called) in Episode 1 of Star Wars. Some things are just better left to the imagination.

I think I'm just going to read Leigh's re-read when she gets to NS.
Alice Arneson
242. Wetlandernw
toryx - Ummm.... yup. Last time I did a reread, I did all the main sequence novels and realized I'd started much too soon, since I was still done LONG before TGS was due out. So I made myself pick up NS; that was last spring sometime, and it's still sitting there collecting dust, with my bookmark about 1/3 of the way through. I don't precisely dislike it, but... meh. It just didn't do much for me. JMHO... But I'm with you on just doing Leigh's re-read. Maybe the discussion here will get me interested enough to read it again. Or not.
243. JanDSedai
Apropos of nothing, I just had a THOUGHT--
Are Caddy's crescent moon and stars in any way related to the crescents and stars Lanfear is always pictured as wearing?

Maybe some of them are dream TA, since Lanfear uses T'A'R so much.
Ron Garrison
244. Man-0-Manetheran
New Spring: I don't think I really appreciated it until my re-read. I hadn't read it for a couple years, and it felt like I had never read it at all. Try borrowing from the public library. If you don't like it, no loss...
Barry T
245. blindillusion
Hmm...regarding net.

The Encycolpaedia WoT simply lists out Cadsuane's accoutrements as "ornaments", as in they're not connected by anything. So, one could assume that the "P-Net" is the singular ter'angreal that does away with Semirhage's Illusion in KoD...even the quote provided by Cumadrin alludes back to this:
that cursed woman with the paralis-net in her hair had unraveled Semirhage's authority with the entire lot of them,
and the rest of them are simply spaced around in her hair...much like barrettes.

So, as a whole...I still say: Hattrick

edit: Oh, look in the Items section to find the 'greal.

Also, I suppose I'm disagreeing with Cumadrin in with this post as he seems to think the P-Net is the name of Cadsuane's entire arsenal.

Ah difference of opinion, how do I love thee. =)
Juan Avila
246. Cumadrin
(blind, you should like this)

i guess it was me who brought up the paralis-net. mostly because i find pondering ter'angreal and what various characters do and do not know of them more interesing than Cads or Lanfear at this point. so...

i went digging in the background of the paralis-net, and consequently the Guardian in Far Madding and Nynaeve's set of ter'angreal, because they shares some similarities with the paralis-net. i looked up the Domination Band as well because it corroborates evidence that the paralis-net was made during the breaking, and that leads to other conclusions if the desire to follow those lines of thought takes you. i'll quote all my findings now.

tSR ch. 54 Nynaeve and Moghedien

“Do you wonder how I know all this? The collar and bracelets were made after I was . . . Well, we will not talk of that. Once I was free, the first thing I did was seek information about those last days. Last years, really. There are a good many fragments here and there that make no sense to anyone who does not have some idea to begin with. The Age of Legends. Such a quaint name you have given my time. Yet even your wildest tales no more than hint at the half. I had lived over two hundred years when the Bore was opened, and I was still young, for an Aes Sedai. Your ‘legends’ are but pale imitations of what we could do. Why . . . ”

Nynaeve stopped listening...

this indicates some records somewhere exist about the Breaking, and that the Domination Bands were made during it. you can conclude a few things taking this and Semirhage's explanation of the Domination Bands from tGS together:

1: Semirhage also found some records from the breaking and thus learned about the Domination Bands and (probably) the paralis-net. she probably got the name from these records.
2: seeing as the a'dam's origins were explained to Egwene in tGH as coming after Luthair went across the Aryth, we can infer that some knowledge of the Domination Band, or maybe an actual example, was present in Seanchan for the 'Aes Sedai' Deain to use as reference to create the first a'dam for him.

lastly i included that last sentence cause i want to slap Nynaeve a little for not listening further. even if she was busy with a 'fight for her life' or some nonsense. :P

WH ch. 23 Sarene speaking to Shalon

The city possesses a ter’angreal. Or perhaps it is three ter’angreal. No one knows. They—or it—cannot be studied any more than they can be removed. They must have been made during the Breaking, when fear of madmen channeling the Power was the matter of every day. But to pay such a price for the safety.”

more evidence (if you judge Sarene's opinion as such) that these type of ter'angreal were not made until the Breaking. which seems kinda funny to me seeing as the War of Power in the AoL had channelers on both sides. but maybe most of the fighting was armies vs Shadowspawn, and Dreadlords/Forsaken used Gray Men/gholam for more precise offensive actions like assassinations. shrug

WH ch. 35 various PoVs during cleansing

So. Unless someone in this accursed Age had discovered yet another unknown ability, al’Thor must have acquired a device, a ter’angreal, that could detect a man channeling. From what he knew of what people now called the Breaking, after he himself had been imprisoned at Shayol Ghul, any woman who knew how to make ter’angreal would have been trying to create one that would do that. In war, the other side always came up with something you did not expect, and you had to counter it.


Abruptly the light of saidar appeared around the woman, but the ready ball of fire streaked from Cyndane’s hand, small enough to escape detection she hoped, but enough to burn a hole through this woman who—

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled. The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter’angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.

Demandred's PoV plus info referenced here concludes all Cads' ornaments were made during the Breaking, seeing as they are all a set, and the channeling compass thingy didn't exist in the AoL apparently (again, really?). Cyndane's PoV gives credence to the name paralis-net possibly only referring to the weave disruption ter'angreal Cads and Nanaeve's sets include, because channelers during the breaking probably still thought of their weaves differently than modern channelers, as we know AoL Aes Sedai do from modern ones. ie she describes her 'weave' as a 'net.'

that's all i got for the moment. forgive the tangent and wall of text.
Marcus W
247. toryx
I think it'd make a certain amount of sense that a bunch of ter'angreal might be made to disrupt weaves after the Breaking. Before the men went mad, they might never have thought of that as a tactical advantage.

Once you have men running around doing all kinds of crazy (and dangerous) things with the Power, however, women would have a strong impetus to figure out a way to dissolve those weaves. And it probably would be easier to stop all weaves rather than simply Saidin.

Not a perfect solution but certainly a useful one.

Personally, though, I'm more inclined to think that a "net" type of ter'angreal would be useful for a lot of different things well before the Breaking. If each item on the net (like charms on a charm bracelet) have been designed to a particular function, it'd be easy for a Forsaken to recognize a net but not necessarily know all the functions that the "charms" have been embued with.

So I think the net itself is an item from before the Breaking, but some of the functions of the "charms" are new to the Forsaken.
Bonnie Andrews
248. misfortuona
Voice inside head. Just shut up or they'll put you in finger shackles.
Can't... still...can

So can the TP be channelled in Far Madding?
I ask because of the three ter’angreal, or three pieces of ter’angreal, that make up the shield.
Is this just RJ's love of the number three, or do the pieces represent each of the three powers?

Mis- do they sell finger shackles?
Ron Garrison
249. Man-0-Manetheran
"The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart!" Excellent! Good find, Cumadrin.

And good logic toryx. Defensive weapons would logically be created during the breaking as opposed to the great peace of the AoL.
Juan Avila
250. Cumadrin
seeing as the only 2 examples of these sets of ter'angreal are proven to be made during the breaking by my last post (or pretty close to proven, imo) i'm gonna disagree with toryx and stand by said post. i don't think sets of ter'angreal like the 2 we've seen were around, but i of course can't disprove his theory, so i just prefer to stand where my own leg-work and all the evidence i gathered put me.

@248 mis

far as i know, there's no evidence the TP can't be channeled anywhere, except possibly Shayol Ghul, if the DO doesn't want you to, of course. and i recall it mentioned by a Forsaken that he doesn't like channeling near there without permission, so that might mean he doesn't allow the TP to be used there by default, as he directly controls who can access it.
Barry T
251. blindillusion
Mis -

I believe Mr Sanderson answered that question with a yes, the TP can be channeled in Far Madding. Or it could have been Mr Jordan....

Or I could be completely wrong and I'm thinking about when one of them talked about Isam/Luc's powers being able to work there just as Perrin's would be able to work there.

Can't check my sources because I'm at work...

So, this post is a waste of 'net paper.

Reading it might have been a waste of time as well. Oh well...too late now I guess.
Tess Laird
252. thewindrose
I just wanted to make a quick comment about New Spring. Seeing how short it is, I would suggest reading it when you have a spare 3/4 hours. Think of it a snack:)

Alice Arneson
253. Wetlandernw
BWS answered the question at a book signing (Philadelphia), saying that the guardian at Far Madding cannot stop the TP.
James Jones
254. jamesedjones
248. misfortuona
do they sell finger shackles?

Yes, "they" do. Or were you being serious?
Barry T
255. blindillusion
The Guardian
A ter'angreal in the city of Far Madding. It consists of three cloudy crystal discs a span wide. Each disc has a narrow clear crystal wedge and gradations around its circumference. The guardian creates three zones around the city. The innermost zone ending at the bridges to the city cuts off women from the True Source. A larger zone that cuts off men from the True Source extends about a mile outside the city. A still larger zone detects a man or woman channeling outside the other zones. When use of the One Power is detected, the three wedges point toward the source allowing the channeler's location to be determined by triangulation. The wedges turn red for saidar and black for saidin.
Perhaps the 3 "pieces" perform the separate functions of the ter'angreal?
Sam Mickel
257. Samadai
I will try to say this w/o any spoilers for tGS but here goes since we are talking about it here.

We Know that Nynaeve stopped Rand from doing something stupid, but why didn't he think of causing a lightning storm and blasting apart the Ter'angreal at Far Madding with bolts of lightning. As we have seen Those ter'angreal only stop direct channeling not say, objects thrown at them. So Rand could have killed 2 birds with 1 stone. Punish Far Madding for imprisoning him and show the you know whos that were there that their plan to ( blank ) him was stupid.
Marcus W
258. toryx
I find it difficult to accept that Semirhage was able to discover the name of an item that was created during or after the Breaking but has since been forgotten by pretty much everybody.

That just doesn't make sense.

For that matter, how did the Forsaken get all their knowledge anyway? It's one of those rare things that have never been explained that I'd like an answer to. Here they are, awoken after 3000 years of dreamless sleep (well, most of them) in a world they don't recognize, with people speaking a language not their own, and somehow they manage to not only learn to speak the language flawlessly, but figure out the political situations of various kingdoms well enough to fit in and eventually rule there, and still learn things about the Breaking that no one living now knows?

I've yet to see an explanation that works for all that.
Barry T
259. blindillusion
Sam ~ That's a worthy line of thought, but asking it is like asking why it took so long for someone to realize that by Traveling a few feet they learn their location well enough to Travel to whatever destination they desire.
260. GoldsteinLives
@toryx 258

Wizard did it.
Thomas Keith
261. insectoid
Re: Paralis-net... If you've seen the New Spring comics, the artists depict the net as sort of a mobile, with the ornaments dangling from metal arms. So... I don't know what to think. :|

Blind @100: oops, I mean 256;) LOL.

Sam Mickel
262. Samadai
blind~ I know but isn't that what we do here? Ask all these silly questions trying to see what other people have to say about it.
Ron Garrison
263. Man-0-Manetheran
P-Net: I've always pictured them like the long hair ornaments that geishas wear.
Marcus W
264. toryx
Samadai @ 257:

Well you're assuming two things:

1. That the three ter'angreal are in positions where they can be reached by lightning or any other form of secondary channeling effects (as opposed to, say, inside a building).

2. Rand has the slightest clue where those things happen to be.

I don't think Rand would know what to strike at. Furthermore, he wouldn't necessarily know whether or not the ter'angreal are fragile enough to be destroyed with a storm of lightning. Heck, we don't know that either.

Far as my memory takes me, Rand never actually saw the ter'angreal, and it's highly unlikely that Cadsuane (or anyone else) would tell him where it's at.

So I doubt it even crossed his mind to try to destroy Far Madding's protections. He was more concerned with lashing out at those who were pissing him off.
265. ZinaLu
@258 Toryx... Language is my pet peeve with the series. Isn't it convenient that everyone speaks the same language? Don't get me wrong, I love WoT (or else why would I be here?) But the Seanchan and the Aiel at least should be speaking different languages than the wetlanders, no more closely related than Spanish, French and Italian. Languages tend to change after hundreds of years, let alone thousands. Has there already been a discussion of this in any of the previous posts? I haven't read every entry. I have a life.
Juan Avila
266. Cumadrin
i've had another thought. the weave disrupting ter'angreal in the 2 sets are very much like Mat's foxhead, except they appear to project their effect around them instead of only protecting the body of someone in contact with it.

makes me wonder, since by the evidence it appears these types of ter'angreal were not known in the AoL (my wall of text + Halima's reaction to trying to channel at Mat in Salidar), did the 'Finn get them before or after the AoL, because i recall it mentioned the doorway ter'angreal were old even in the AoL, though i can't remember where.

the small evidence (these ter'angreal didn't exist before the AoL, at least not to anyone's knowledge thusfar) leads me to believe they got it after the AoL. this may not be true, it's just the best gues to me atm. the question then is how. let THAT spawn more looney theories! i honestly don't care to try. but i had to bring the similarities up.

another thought i had is the ter'angreal in the sets seem to vary in effectiveness depending on range of the weave to the ter'angreal. recall that Cyndane's fireball didn't get disrupted till it was inches away from Alivia. yet Cads' (i believe) ter'angreal disrupted Semirhage's Illusion, yet neither Cads' or Nynaeve's stopped her fireball from hitting Rand. it seems these ter'angreal will stop completed weaves like fireballs (maybe lightning?) if they get close enough. where as Mat... got struck by lightning and was not saved by his ter'angreal. maybe lightning is a weave too strong to stop for Mat's ter'angreal, maybe for the ones in the sets. hard to say.

unless... the ter'angreal that protected Alivia was the one Nynaeve mentioned as being 'armor better than steel' and not like Cads' ornament that disrupted Semirhage's Illusion.

this all raises more questions than answers. not surprising.

we have 3 ter'angreal. 3 different ter'angreal, now that i think of it more. Nynaeve's armor ter'angreal was figured out just before the cleansing, it makes sense it was what protected Alivia, not whatever Cads' ornament that unmasked Semirhage, since that armor ter'angreal hasn't appeared to do much since. Mat's foxhead is obviously different still. all in all, one big pile of vague similarities for connections and sighs, to me, but worth having my brain wrap around at least once for exercise.

(at the point of my first ellipses (...) was where new ideas and remembering Nynaeve's armor ter'angreal struck me and i was writing as it came to me. welcome to my brain)

food for thought, the lot of it.


actually, it makes plenty sense. recall that Aes Sedai forgot many things, even things they have recorded in the Tower. the same has been shown true at all other repositories of knowledge, recall Rand searching for a Portal Stone to travel to Rhuidean, and was VERY lucky ONE librarian remembered ONE dusty manuscript that was relevant. knowledge has been getting lost since the Breaking, even knowledge that isn't really lost, just forgotten. the Forsaken are the only ones inclined to look, and being from the AoL, are more likely to to deduce things about new ter'angreal created during the Breaking and whatnot that channelers born after would not. likely ter'angreal created during the Breaking were made by former AoL Aes Sedai, and any records they left would be in AoL vernacular with AoL-related lingo, metaphors, similes, etc...

furthermmore the Forsaken are more likely to be able to find ruins or stasis boxes, and identify the ruins at least, as worth inspecting from their knowledge of AoL geography. stuff may be moved around and buried, but it's not a stretch Semirhage or Moghedien would recognize ruined evidence of the front door to the Hall of the Servants or something if it were found somewhere.

lastly, as for the language, luckily the WOTFAQ answers that better than i could here and saves me creating an even bigger wall of text.
Rob Munnelly
267. RobMRobM
266. ZinaLu - yes, the language issue has been discussed extensively. No, I don't know where in the re-read. I too have a life, so good luck at finding it.
268. ZinaLu
@ 266. Thanks for the link to the WOTFAQ.It was interesting.

@ 267. It's been discussed extensively? Where have I been?
Rob Munnelly
269. RobMRobM
Long time ago, as I recall. Keep in mind that I am one of the "senior members" of this group, having gotten involved in the middle of EOTW and we've been at this for over a year. I just remember a good day or two debate best on the subject at some point way back when.....
Sam Mickel
270. Samadai
Maybe we discussed it during the Fires Of Heaven re-read about the forsaken meeting to trap Rand. the one where Lanfear, Graendal, Sammael and Rahvin attend
Lannis .
271. Lannis
Sorry folks, been lurking lately... had to pipe up...

RobM @ 269: "senior members" made laugh... makes us sound like we're having a bunch of "senior moments" when things go sideways... ha!

Though truly, we do go a little nuts around here... ;)
Sam Mickel
272. Samadai

"A little nuts", kind of like how the breaking of the world was a little problem.
Rob Munnelly
274. RobMRobM
And get off my lawn....Young whippersnappers!
Sam Mickel
275. Samadai
In my day, we actually picked up these paper things called books and read them page by page. and that was after walking ten miles through the snow, uphill both ways, to the bookstore. Now Get on outta here with your fancy technology.
Barry T
276. blindillusion
Sam ~ 262 ~:~ Yep. That's why I put my comment the way I did. Your's is an interesting question. I'd like to think mine is too...especially as it should be blazingly obvious to all the characters who can Travel/Skim, or have heard their mechanics discussed, that this

Also, I didn't really have a response. I think Toryx gave a pretty good run down though.
Rob Munnelly
277. RobMRobM
Sam@275. As Monty Python would say, "You lucky b*stard...."
Thomas Keith
278. insectoid
Lannis @271 et al: You guys are hilarious. ;D

RobM² @277: Oh come now, don't start that again... ;)

Sam Mickel
279. Samadai
I agree that is a very duh moment. How many books have we had traveling now and then, bam, why didin't I think of that before?

You know what. I bet that is something Brandon didn't like about how traveling works, and Bam he fixes it.
280. MasterAlThor
RobM @ 269

Huh? What? Dagblastit hearing aid.

Lannis and Samadai are back yay!!!! And lets not forget JEJ and toryx.

Wetlandernw is it true we are getting the band back together? I asked Free but he didn't say anything.

281. MasterAlThor

Could you please step forward and receive your temporary guru pass?

Very well thought out. You may earn a spot among the pantheon of wisdom around here.
Don Barkauskas
282. bad_platypus
You know what. I bet that is something Brandon didn't like about how traveling works, and Bam he fixes it.
BWS has stated that RJ left a list of specific new weaves to be revealed in the upcoming books. I'm more inclined to think this is one of those. After all, I don't believe we ever see the Forsaken in a position where they would have used this trick, and the rest of the characters have only known how to Travel for at most 275 days (from when Aviendha makes her first gateway until the end of tGS; 255 days since Rand Travels in his encounter with Rahvin; 191 since Egwene demonstrated it for Moghedien). In less then 9 months with a lot of other things to concentrate on, it's not too surprising they wouldn't have thought of it.
Bonnie Andrews
283. misfortuona
All especially JDJ@254 and Blind@256
See that's what I love about the family here. You ask a question, stupid or otherwise, and someone not only comes up with an answer, but shows you pictures.

Thanks guys.

Really glad I asked about Far Madding, maybe now I can figure out what was bugging me about that place.

Wow all the posts since I stepped into RL for a couple hours, and especially the bunch of you from RobM@269
I literally fell out my chair, you silly guys.

Mis-wished I'd have found this site earlier

Ishy (I hope I've at least got this right) made irregular appearances over those 3000 years. He could have learned a fair amount of stuff during those times, and (I know unlikely) shared it with his 'friends.'
Alice Arneson
284. Wetlandernw
MasterAlThor - we're thinking about it, but us oldtimers might have trouble going on tour with our walking sticks and such. ;)

Actually, I think if we ever go back to double-post weeks, we'll see the band back together anyway. I think right now, there's just not all that much of interest to last a whole week, so we're drifting.
Tricia Irish
285. Tektonica
Hey peeps, friends and gurus......

I've posed a few questions on the Unbelievably Massive Gathering Storm Reread Thread, trying to get a discussion going so we can reach 5,000. According to The Insectoid numbers guru, we only need 96 more.

We could use your collective brains and encyclopedic knowledge! So mosey on over.......

Maybe if we hit 5,000, Torie will give us our very own shiny new ongoing General Discussion Thread? Pretty please, pretty please, pretty please, etc......
Juan Avila
286. Cumadrin
#281 MaT


i don't want to toot my own horn, but i've considered myself a WoT Guru of a sort for a long time. i'm no stranger to WoT fan communities, just

but your acknowledegment is greatly appreciated, and i'd like to say the respect it entails is reciprocated towards many of you whom i''ve enjoyed reading the last couple weeks.
287. Freelancer

I do believe BwS specified that the Far Madding guarding could not block the True Power.


Yes, those exact questions always burden me when doing a re-read. On the one hand, the forsaken would have to be near-miraculous researchers with perfect memories to assimilate all the history since their imprisonment necessary to get themselves set up in power. And yet they come up short of competent whenever they actually engage one of our heroes. The mistake is commonly made that they have 3,000 years' worth of knowledge, but they were out of commission for all of that. Once again, raw strength in the Power is granted exalted status independent of corroborating attributes. Kind of like actors pretending to know about world events or politics, and being believed just because of their celebrity status.


Making any connection whatsoever between geishas and Cadsuane is just. . . so very, very wrong.


Once again, suspension of disbelief as pragmatic readership must trump technological reality. How hard would it be to compose the same story, and put in place all of the necessary structure for dealing with language barriers? There's more than enough to deal with in this story, a common language is something I gladly let slide. Don't think that Jordan wasn't aware of the issue, though. Look at the lengths he took to make the manner of speech vary quite distinctly from culture to culture. Think of it like a gathering of people from California, Wisconsin, Georgia, Texas, Vermont, Australia, England, Ireland, Wales, and Scotland. One language, and still very significant speedbumps in cross-interpretation of words.


Whoa, there. You are NOT allowed to call yourself an old-timer, since it drags me along under that label and I categorically refuse to acknowledge that I'm not still 19. Even if my daughter is about to turn 22.

Band? Was I in the band? I knew those days were hard on me... I was the drummer, right?
288. Freelancer

Insectoid "The Numbers Guru" has certainly been the most consistent at carrying it out over there on the Monster Thread Part Deux, but I'm pretty sure I started the referencing of others' comments offset to the total number of Spoiler comments including the original thread. Torie cut us off at 3428 comments on Part The First, so it isn't exactly rocket surgery to add. The magic number for an aggregate 5,000 comments is therefore 1,572 on Part The Second.

And I can feel subwoofer jockeying for position to nab it with much fanfare and renewed calls for an official TOR dingleball. Will insectoid cut him off? Blindillusion? A red-named stranger? Will R.Fife streak out of extended absentia to RickRoll comment 5K? The Shadow knows...
Sam Mickel
289. Samadai
wet@284 and free@287,

You two are only ten years older than I am, and I am no where near being old. So you can't be either.

God could you imagine the length of these books if we had to bring in a translater for all the "different" peoples. We would be on book 48 "the Gathering Storm of nobody cares anymore". Plot line: Ishamael is still trying to make Mat, Perrin and Rand understand that The Eye of the World will not serve them.
Barry T
290. blindillusion
Regarding the True Power, by way of Mr Sanderson:
Brandon explained that the True Power can only be used by someone that the Dark One has allowed to use it. The True Power is perhaps more powerful then the One Power in the way a drugged up person is more powerful then someone not drugged up. In the moment the drugged up person may be, but in the long run maybe not. Further explaining the True Power he said the guardian in Far Madding cannot stop it.
Ron Garrison
291. Man-0-Manetheran
Free - the connection is simply one of hair styles! Picture Bea Arthur in a geisha bun with hair pins and a pant suit.
Barry T
292. blindillusion know'd be vastly amusing if Torie simply broke the thread at 1,571 and gave us our General Discussion Thread...thus making it impossible to reach 5,000 on the Spoiler Thread.... I'm just sayin'. It's something my sense of humor would appreciate.

But now...I'm gunning for 1,572. Staying up all night. No work tomorrow. I'm picturing Leonardo DiCaprio channeling Howard Hughes-esk shut-in status, not really.
Tricia Irish
293. Tektonica
MOM@291: ROFLOL....what an image!!!

Free@288: We'll be looking for 1572 then over on the Massive Thread...thanks for clearing up the numbers shenanigans.

I'm hoping that "old timers" refers to the "originals" on this Tor thread, not those of us of a certain, er, "age". In which case, I'm still pretty young!

Would've loved to have stumbled in here earlier, but am glad to have found you all say, last fall? Maybe?
John Massey
294. subwoofer
Holy Schnike! This site was one block off queer street! It loaded wrong and I was thinking Leigh brought about the end of the world by bringing TOR down with a virus. Mad skills that! Ummmmm... then I hit refresh and all was right in the world. Durned Interweb doohickey.

And yes, I believe in the last post er ACoS11, while doing my Cad-bashing I also discussed the idea that the Forsaken are a bunch of doofs that if they actually teamed up, or even on an individual basis, could of whooped Rand's a$$ in the first few books if they were not busy scheming and backstabbing. Short of competent is putting it mildly. Rand should be beast bait by now. Ta'veren seems to keep him alive while he gets his head together.

As for the talents of the Forsaken being brought up to speed, well many possibilities. Dark friends/ minions gave them the down low. The Black Ajah did some hocus pocus. The DO did an info dump direct to brain. The link to the DO gives them all the knowledge they need to know. They have smart phones that tell them everything. This could go on for days, but fact of the matter is, they know, they are doing what they can, they are still donkeys.

I think the drummer position is already filled.

dibs on manager.

@Curmadrin- now how could you spend valuable time on other sites and not visit the publishing company of the very series we are all crazy about? Besides, other than Dragonmount, most sites are a dream to navigate. If you like the idea of an eligma trapped inside a puzzle trapped in a riddle. Er, no offense Linda and TAmyrlinring1...

John Massey
296. subwoofer
Nice thing about this site is it is not tiered and it is for everyone. Other places have degrees of separation where if you are a noob, then everyone knows it. Sucks. And only the special people get to do the fancy things. Like see the light of day. I like TOR because we are all on equal footing and everybody gets treated with respect. Even R.Fife and his girl Suffa.

John Massey
300. subwoofer
What TF?!

I had some merry sayings and stuff and they got shinobied by the poltergeist. TOR moderators- MEDIC!

Sam Mickel
301. Samadai
You ghost in the machine into 300 and I was set to snag it from you.
Scott Terrio
302. Renegade248
Did anyone catch the blog post on the 13th Depository about the slowing of the books between 8-11 and the reason why Jordan did that? Interesting stuff.

Wish I could provide the link, but considers me a spammer when I do, and I hardly ever post here. The link is below, but will have to be copied and pasted into a web browser.
Bonnie Andrews
303. misfortuona
Classic, even the ghosts work for Sub

Juan Avila
304. Cumadrin
@sub 294

this isn't the best analogy but... i'm also an NFL fan. and when i go looking for sites on football the first things that pop into my head are or; or are not at the top of the list.

anyway, DM was the 2nd or 3rd site i visited, and i got sucked into the BotRH fan group there rather quickly, so further searching never crossed my mind. besides, Tor was a site about all kinds of books, yet i was looking for WoT and WoT only.
Thomas Keith
305. insectoid
Tek @285, Free @288 I'm hardly a Numbers Guru... after all, I couldn't even add correctly earlier on the OST! (Though, I did correct Free's counting when he started doing that.) Still, I appreciate the flattery :)

Sub @300: I'm thinking after the OST gets to 5000 that is going to need an overhaul...

Tricia Irish
307. Tektonica

Nice link. Very interesting, but although the slowing was certainly realistically portrayed in the books, I think his reasoning smacked of justification. Just a bit too slow for my taste. Not enough interest/info for the length, IMHO.

I liked the listing of all the Shadow's doings. Puts things in a good perspective.
John Massey
308. subwoofer
Going to need an overhaul?!

My IT department and me get along famously at work, until something goes sideways for me. Then I am constantly on them until the problem is fixed. Net result, the guys have learned to keep everything within my world humming so I don't make their world misery personified.

Scott Terrio
309. Renegade248

Yes I do agree with you as it is a bit long and boring for some of the plotlines, and I am not saying I agree with what the 13D said, but it is interesting and puts it in a new perspective lets say.
Ron Garrison
310. Man-0-Manetheran
"Slowing" - Imagine an actor portraying a boring character by being boring. I think the audience would be the most bored.
Thomas Keith
311. insectoid
Sub @308: Okay, going to need an overhaul last week! ;)

John Massey
312. subwoofer
@Cumadrin- yes, but the NFL is an actual channel, same way TOR is the publisher. Best stuff in the galaxy if you love football, such as I do. Seahawks... brave man.

And the NFL sells gear there, same way TOR sells crazy things... like books here. I'm telling ya, there are a couple of old sayings out there, the first one I can't remember but it was about tree beating or getting milk for free, the second was something like, if you have to stick your hand up a horse's... rectum... you may as well shove it right up to the elbow.

Anyways, glad you are here, and you notice, without the cast system or tier levels here, I am free to have fun whereas the other sites have the "may I" rule in play. I have played that game before, I don't like it.

TOR- even with the really annoying bugs- Rocks.

Alice Arneson
313. Wetlandernw
Hey, no insult intended with the "aging band" comment. ;) I think it was brought on by a combination of Rob's "get off my lawn" bit and the fact that, due to some... odd... events in the last few days, I woke up feeling very stiff, sore and old-lady-ish this morning! But hey, we are among the oldtimers on this thing. Good times.

Renegade - interesting analysis on 13D. I really should check in there more often. I certainly felt that CoT was the nadir...!
Rob Munnelly
314. RobMRobM
I have to confess I love the 13D site. They come up with deeper, more creative stuff than the other WoT sites. For example, the Forced Attentions article from last week is very good. It pointed to all of the many forms of sexual harassment in CoS, including Lan (forced bond equals rape), Mat (rape by knifepoint, Morgase (coerced rape), and Rand-Min (he thought he raped her but was wrong). I hadn't put all of those incidents together until them. Genius! And that doesn't cover the really genius 13D posts - like analyzing RJ's use of color to add depth of story to TSR and the like.


P.s. Yes, my name is Rob and I am an oldtimer. *Hi Rob*. But at least I'm a year younger than Free and Wet....
James Jones
315. jamesedjones
314 RobMRobM

*Hi Rob.*

Re: 13D My favorite has to be their examination of the reflection of Emond's Field on the rest of Randland. A lot of other sites make observations on this, but they never reach the level of expertise.

And how do you qualify as an "Old Timer"? I've been here since the 4th book, so I'm more of a mid-lifer. But I still snicker whenever someone refers to our local gurus as "Free and Wet", so I might have lost my eligibility somewhere...
Rob Munnelly
316. RobMRobM
JEJ - I've been here since a few chapters into EOTW, so I'm riper than most who post here. As a matter of chronological age, I try to argue I'm still in my mid-40s but my wife has made clear I'm a year or two too old to make that stick. LOL re Free and Wet - my mind tends to combine the two names into Free Willy. Not a pretty picture as it relates to the two gurus.
317. MasterAlThor
I see what you did there....I am just lucky enough to have caught an episode or two while browsing my internet radio stations on my PSP.

Wish I could have heard the Green Hornet though.

And you might want to be careful. Susan Serandon and Matt Damon might be angry with you.

Hey you are recognized by me at least. I just haven't published a complete list of guru's yet. That would take a lot more research than I have time for right now.

Why they gotta ruin the fun. My wife tells me the same thing. She laughs out loud when I tell her someone thinks I'm still in my 20's.

I used to wake up feeling like that. I still do from time to time, but I think that for me it was mental.

What's up be do be do whaaaaaaa

Marcus W
318. toryx

In case people haven't noticed, I don't visit in the evenings. So whenever I post a long string of replies to people in the morning, it's because I'm catching up. Sorry about that.

Zinalu @ 265:

As I'm sure others have already commented, the language discussion has been had a great deal in the past. A lot of people don't like that everyone speaks the same language. I consider it a sort of magical handwaving trick done to make things easier on the writer and reader. Which is fine with me. But I think it's a little different when it comes to the Forsaken who we know speak a different language.

Cumadrin @ 266:

Well we know people had been going through the Tear doorway quite a bit after the Breaking and stopped doing it quite so often once Mayene gave it up to Tear. I imagine that for centuries regular people (i.e., non-channelers) had been finding objects of power all over the place, and having no use for them were happy to give them to the 'finn as a bargaining chip.

As for the knowledge issue: I have no quibble with the Forsaken being able to find Stasis boxes and the like. But knowledge lost to during the Breaking or the Trolloc Wars or the chaos that fell upon Artur Hawkwing's death is a whole other ballgame. I have a hard time believing that an Aes Sedai could create a new ter'angreal, give it a name, and then in the centuries following all knowledge of that ter'angreal including its name is lost, only to be found again by a stranger in a strange land, aka the Forsaken. That's pushing my limits of believability.

misfortuona @ 283:

I considered the idea that Ishamael would have helped the others to get their feet on the ground, but I disgarded it. Sure, he might have shared some things, but that doesn't even begin to explain how they managed to learn the language so well they don't have any accents. Furthermore, it's not only assuming that Ishamael would be willing to help the others (who are nowhere near to friends) it's assuming that the others would be willing to accept his help. I just can't buy that; the DO isn't likely to command Ishamael to give them a tour, since he likes the strong to survive and competition to fester.

So while I admit it's possible I find it pretty unlikely that the answer to all my questions is that simple.

Re: Old Timers:

If people who started with EotW are old timers, I guess that makes me a middle-ager. Though I don't remember exactly when I started. It's all a blur...
319. MasterAlThor
I don't remember....

I think I started in somewhere around the EOTW or TGH.

Can't remember....

Does that make me old???
John Massey
320. subwoofer
Yes! You are a geezer. Break out the Geritol and the prune juice.

I dunno, life is good- theoretically, unless TOR eats this post again.

WoT- There is much reference made to dialects and the Old Tongue. Mat has many memories of other times and other languages. Thom can speak in different rhythms so as to seem a commoner or a High Lord. IIRC there was a time when he was preforming for a House in Camelyn or Cairhenien(sp?) where he did not speak in his normal voice or tongue, but puffed out his chest and orated very differently. I think it is like all the boroughs in NY. Brooklyn vs Manhattan, or Jersey. And there is the Seanchan Texas drawl, and many other references to the Shara world and the Sea Folk way of talking.

Yes there is a universal translator at work here but it makes the story flow a little better then having to write about using sign language or semaphore to communicate a thought.

John Massey
321. subwoofer
@M A T- interesting new avatar. Looks suspiciously like the dingle ball Torie promised me;)

Chin Bawambi
322. bawambi
I liked the 13th depot Time analysis - I just thought that mayhaps Jordan got a new editor in charge at Tor and was allowed to run Amok. I do think that the paralis net would be exactly the kind of strategic advantage that Sammael would have looked for during the Shadow Wars. Does anybody remember a quote about who in the AoL made ter'angreal etc back then? It almost seems unrealistic to not have developed it. The Paralis net seems much more like good night vision goggles in battlefield tech than say stealth fighters.
323. MasterAlThor
I have no idea what you are talking about....

:walks away slowly:
James Jones
324. jamesedjones
317 MasterAlThor

Thank you for the complement, as undeserved as it might be. :D

BTW cool new dingle ball. Where'd ya get it?
Maiane Bakroeva
325. Isilel
Subwoofer @86:

Being insane, well, it may just seem that way as some men may make desperate attempts at freedom and not being chained and "gentled". What is gentle about making a man lose his will to live anyways?

You seem to blame the AS for gentling male channelers?! I mean, wasn't it the most humane option for preventing them from going bonkers and rotting alive, offing lots of innocent bystanders in the process?
The most risky for the AS too. All other cultures take far more drastic measures.
And it isn't like Randlandian male sparkers had the moral fortitude of the Aiel and willingly went to get themselves offed in the Blight.

Also, it is possible to survive being cut off from the OP and have a full life regardless. If Setalle Anan, who had consciously and routinely channeled for decades could survive it, then surely somebody who only did so occasionally/unconsciously would have an even better chance?
IMHO, what the AS could be reproached for is that they didn't do enough to help gentled men find something worth living for, not the gentlings themselves. They were the least bad option among terrible alternatives.

And BTW, it seems that Cadsuane of all of them did try to do something for the men... even though I am at loss what it could have been, since she doesn't appear to be an accomplished psychologist ;). And it should have plausibly been a province of a Yellow anyway.

It has been pointed out that Caddy has ter'angreal that would protect her from Rand should he want to retaliate for her use of force. Bully, when you can hit someone who is unable to strike back. Actually, to me, that is cowardly.

So, what about Lan intimidating folks with his 1000-yard stare or Perrin with his yellow eyes, etc? Folks that they loomed at didn't have a chance against them either. Not to mention Rand who is the strongest channeler ever and certainly used it and his DRness for intimidation. Or tons of other characters, really, some of them quite beloved.
Oh, and what about Mat who gambles against folks knowing that they can't win? A cowardly thief, right?

No, really, that also seems to be a really unfair accusation against Cadsuane.
It isn't like she actually attacks people knowing that they couldn't retaliate. Supposedly, her attitude and leadership stops people from even trying to strike... though, yea, from the actual depictions of her scenes I wasn't that convinced either.

Aargh, what are you doing to me? How did you make me defend Cadsuane?! I hate her!
326. MasterAlThor

:whistling, sliding off to the bunker:

Tess Laird
327. thewindrose
MasterAlThor - you realize that subwoofer is waiting for you in the bunker? Well I suppose my warning is to late.

Isilel, I follow what you are saying, but here are some thoughts to save yourself some anguish over defending Cadsuane. She has an actual 'magical' item that protects her, and her legendary status is know only to other AS's. Lan is known throughout the borderlands and rumor of who he is, is known even to the Aiel and southerners. And his eyes can be seen by everyone - not secret. Same thing with Perrin's eyes.
Most people also are aware that Rand is the Dragon Reborn(so it is knowledge that everyone has, and they also have the stories that go with it.

Mat isn't well that well known, and his luck cannot be easily seen - so he is you're best example. But as a rule he only gambles with people who can afford it, and I think he even refrains from gambling with his common soldiers.

James Jones
328. jamesedjones
325 Isilel
Aargh, what are you doing to me? How did you make me defend Cadsuane?! I hate her!
ROFL! Happens to the best of commenters.

And me, too. :P
Bill Reamy
329. BillinHI
Toryx @219: While it is certainly true that some of Min's viewings result in seemingly small moments, I think the one with Siuan and Gareth might have led to greater consequences if both of them had been killed. If Siuan is not available to make the gateway back to the rebel camp, does Egwene get "rescued"? And what about Gawyn and the rest of Gareth's men? I also think the outcome of the Ajah leaders' conference might not have gone as it had if Egwene had remained in the tower. As much as Egwene complains about being rescued, I really think her absence from the Tower after the raid was critical in getting her accepted as Amyrlin.

As for NS, it is worth reading, IMO. Cadsuane made only a short appearance as I recall, but her attitude was exactly the same then as now.
James Jones
330. jamesedjones
325 & 327 Re: Mat's Luck

This isn't something that even occured to me until the latest book. But yes, it was delivered to my head from the back with great force during the chapter where Mat was getting ready for his "big throw".

During the earlier novels Mat's gambling always felt as much a skill as an unfair advantage. The best examples would be his card game in the Stone of Tear and his dicing with Tuon in the "hell". You were able to follow his thoughts, decisions, and actions as he played his opponents as much as the cards or dice. Like the horse trading chapter, A Stave and a Razor, his skill was evident and perfectly choreographed as he analyzed and estimated his odds and holdings, and played his wages with style and internal humor.

This was not so in TGS. Maybe the lack of any personal history in gambling affected BWS. Sadly, it's a great individual attribute, but it killed the scene for me. Those of you that feel that his luck makes him a bully, have earned a lot of support from the last novel.
Marcus W
331. toryx
BillinHI @ 329:

That's true, things might have gotten bad if they had been killed. But I still think the reality of the viewing's result was pretty anticlimatic. And I say that even though I wouldn't really want it to go any other way.

Cadsuane made only a short appearance as I recall, but her attitude was exactly the same then as now.

So basically, in 20 years Cadsuane hasn't really changed at all? That sort of explains why she doesn't vary her routine according to situation.

bawambi @ 322:

I just thought that mayhaps Jordan got a new editor in charge at Tor and was allowed to run Amok.

I've actually observed (and this is just my opinion) that as an author commands a larger advance/ royalty and grows more popular, the amount of editing seems to diminish in turn. It's pretty obvious (to me) with a number of authors: Stephen King, Robert Jordan, George R.R. Martin, Diana Gabaldon...I could go on and on. It's a constant theme that I think ultimately detracts from the work.

On the other hand, I don't fault RJ for wanting to try different things as he wrote the books. A writer learns from his mistakes even more than he can from his successes and RJ's last books definitely seemed to be reflecting the strength of that education.

Edit: Complicated? I don't know why I said complicated. I meant popular. Stupid brainslip. Fixed.
Rob Munnelly
332. RobMRobM
But in New Spring Cads had her eye on the prize - she identified Moiraine who was in disguise without informing other sisters of her knowledge and then in her own inimitable way (e.g., discussing Moiraine's pillow friend status with Siuan back in the day) told Moiraine that she was in the top ten of channelers in the White Tower and she was too valuable to go wandering about in the Borderlands and risking life and limb from brigands. Moiraine had to pull a ruse and escape; otherwise Cads would have made sure she was heading back to Tar Valon.

One can make the argument that Cads had a cogent concern that went against standard WT hands off tradition re what sisters chose to do but she did it anyway. The WT is too thin in power to lose a channeler of Moiraine's ability and Moiraine truly had no experience in surviving the Borderlands. Early character development that Cads goes her own way and does what she thinks is right even if it violates (dumb) WT traditions and even if it ticks off the individual sisters who are subject to her attentions.

Marcus W
333. toryx
RobM @332:

Having not read the book I'm probably foolish to take this part of the discussion on, but from what you describe that could simply be another case of Cadsuane's attitude of, "What's good enough for me isn't good enough for you."

Furthermore, given that Moiraine was not only capable of surviving out in the world for 20 years (with Lan's help of course) but she actually succeeded at finding the Dragon Reborn, it's another example where technically, Cadsuane was wrong.
Ron Garrison
334. Man-0-Manetheran
In New Spring Moiraine was a very new AS. She and Siuan had just been raised to the shawl. I don't think it a stretch that Cadsuane was concerned about her being out on her own, especially in the Borderlands. Turns out that Moiraine could take care of herself, but she did have some very close calls before bonding Lan! Nobody is saying Cads is infallable here, but she was not out of line in her concern.
Bonnie Andrews
335. misfortuona
I might be mistaken, but IIRC, Cadsuane's talk with Moraine just predated her bonding of Lan. In truth had the young AS gone into the Borderlands alone, she wouldn't likely have lasted long.

Ron Garrison
336. Man-0-Manetheran
You remember well, mis. The bonding was much later in the book - pretty much the climax.
Rob Munnelly
337. RobMRobM
Note that Cads' behavior worried Moiraine enough that she and Siuan thought she might be a Darkfriend (as another of the AS in the room turned out to be).
338. ValMar
Mis, Rob, MoM, et all re: NS and Cads.
I agree with Cads santiments (if not her clumsy enforsement)re Mo's galivanting in the Borderlands. She didn't know why Moiraine was there. Mo's explanation, IIRC, made her look childlish/willful.
Re Mo & Siuan thinking Cads maybe darkfriend. They were practically on the run and very paranoid, with good reason. To them Cads action would look like an attempt to interfere. All a matter of perception.

PS New Spring is certainly worth a read for a WOT fan.
339. Lsana
@302. Renegade248,

It's an interesting theory that Jordan deliberately slowed the pace of the books to mirror the difficulties of the light, but I have to say that reading that evaluation, I thought it was:

a) Most likely an after-the-fact justification rather than a well-planned artistic decision.

b) Even if it was planned out, it was a very bad choice. When I took a writing class in college, my teacher taught me about the imitative fallacy: the idea that the best way to write about a five-year-old is to write like a five-year-old, the best way to write about the meaninglessness of modern life is to write a meaningless book. This is a fallacy because it doesn't enlighten your reader to your message; it bores them and annoys them and insures that they won't be your reader for very much longer. Likewise, the slow pace of books 8-11 didn't help Jordan's fans understand the difficulties facing the light; it just turned many of Jordan's fans into ex-fans and cost him readers who would otherwise have stuck with him.

@325 Isilel,

A good defense of the Aes Sedai there, and one of the reasons I have a soft spot for the Red Ajah. Gentling seems to have a bad reputation and a lot of people who "blame" the Reds for it. Yes, its not fair that men get gentled, but it would be less fair for these men to be allowed to run around and kill hundreds of people.

@337 RobMRobM,

My feelings when I read the FAQ section on why Cads couldn't be a Darkfriend were much like Egwene's on learning that Romanda and Leilane weren't on Verin's list: disappointment, along with a tiny bit of shame at being disappointed.
340. JanDSedai
We still don't know whether Cads is Black; Verin is confused enough to consider poisoning her in WH. But after Verin's revelation it would be anticlamatic in the extreme.

Some of the outside references I thought were so evident as to not be worthy of comment--i.e. the Princess Bride. Don't we all have every line memorized?! But I don't remember song titles and bands. I don't remember the 70's anymore-- I guess that means I was there.

Re: the miracle pill:
"Do you think it will work?"
"It would take a miracle."
Bonnie Andrews
341. misfortuona
Not worthy of comment!!! You wound me!!

Mis-mostly dead
Joseph Blaidd
342. SteelBlaidd

I think one of the other differences is that in tGS Mat is Gambleing as WORK because he has to feed his men. Most of the rest of the time he is gambleing more for fun. Though he does use the money, in part, to suport the Band, that is not the primary reason hes doing it. Mostly he's killing time or, with Tuon, on a date.
Alice Arneson
343. Wetlandernw
toryx @331 - 20 years is a long time for someone who's only 22; not quite so long for someone who's 50. Not long at all for someone who's 280; only about 7% of her lifetime. A routine that's been developed by experience for 150 to 200 years isn't likely to change a whole lot in another 20.

Re: the charge of bullying, particularly as it relates to the book we're in. (TGS is another story, and I won't go there again just now.) Personally, I've always thought it was silly to call Cadsuane a bully for pushing Rand when he "can't push back" because of her ter'angreal. Two reasons for this:

One, "bullying" is generally considered a matter of a stronger person being habitually cruel or oppressive toward someone weaker. Exactly how is Rand "weaker" than Cadsuane? Bare strength, she couldn't stand against him for more than a second. With her ter'angreal, she can at least avoid being crushed like a bug if he wigs out. She still couldn't do anything more to him than maybe whack him upside the head. Personally, I think Rand knows that, and as much as it irritates him to have her whack him, he never retaliates because he knows perfectly well that he could squash her like a bug. The fact that he actually couldn't doesn't matter, because he will not try. Did you notice that neither Rand nor the Asha'man ever channel at her? Does this perhaps show a certain amount of skill at knowing just how hard to push and when to stop? No one else even knows about her "armor" so it's not a factor for anyone but her.

Two, whatever you may say about some of the others, Cadsuane is not stupid enough to deliberately set up a situation like this without some defensive armor. I mean, really? We've seen some of the AS try to push Rand around, and end up cringing and cowering - or swearing fealty - or stilled - when he gets ticked off. And they lose all credibility. Can you imagine Cadsuane setting herself up for that? Hardly! Matadors may fight a bull with no protection except their agility and a sword - Cadsuane can't afford that risk. If she ends up dead, Team Light loses a moderately powerful player, along with who-knows-what information and skills, and that would be a bad thing, folks. Meaningless self-sacrifice, while it might look pretty, is just plain stupid in this context. If you're going to sacrifice yourself, at least make it mean something (see Moiraine). If you can do your job without sacrificing your life, it would be stupid to set aside what little protection you have on the basis of some quixotic notion of "fairness" - especially when the other guy is already bigger and stronger. And incidentally, aren't we all glad Cadsuane was there with her P-net when they met the fake Tuon?

So anyway, I personally think the charge of bullying Rand doesn't stand up, no matter what Cadsuane has in her hair.
Ron Garrison
344. Man-0-Manetheran
I believe Moiraine's reply was that she was looking for a warder and she'd heard that the Borderlands was a good place to find some hunks. (OK, I don't have the books handy...)

Moiraine didn't just consider that Cadsuane might be a darkfriend. She thought she might be Black. Interestingly, Moiraine at one point also considered Lan and his two friends might be darkfriends.
Ron Garrison
345. Man-0-Manetheran
I see you, Wet! Your comments made me think more about her P-Net. Having a defensive item to protect from channeling would be very useful if you were wanting to capture a male channeler. Also, another item that would be useful is one that detects a man channeling. That might be just one of the reasons she has found more male channelers than anyone else.
Thomas Keith
346. insectoid
Am I the only one here who has never seen The Princess Bride?

MAT: Like your new avatar. I can tell Sub is jealous! ;)


Marcus W
347. toryx
wetlandernw @ 343:

Well I for one am certainly not so young as to think that 20 years is all that long. It seems like a frighteningly short span of time to me. But still, the older I get the more I learn and the more I learn, the more I adjust my way of looking at the world.

I commented on this in the previous thread, actually, but I'll say it again. I've increasingly begun to believe that the ol' saying that "Old dogs don't learn new tricks" is really a myth. Now granted, I haven't had even one century to compare to, much less two, but I still find it very difficult to believe that someone as experienced and (so-called) wise as Cadsuane would become so fixed in her ways that she couldn't learn new ways of handling people in 20 years.

Unless, of course, she was especially stubborn and unwilling to view things in a new light. Which I think she rather obviously is.

But that's where I find fault with her. Furthermore it's what I find to be really wrong about the entire Aes Sedai/ White Tower system. But whereas the White Tower's obstinency can be explained away by their isolation, what's Cadsuane's excuse? She hasn't spent the last twenty years all that idly, despite her talk about roses.

It'd be one thing if she hasn't done anything but tend roses. But she's been very active, watching the world march rather steadily toward the Last Battle. She must have known the Dragon was either Reborn or about to be, and she'd devoted a large part of the previous two decades to hunting men who can channel, presumnably because of that. Yet she still is as inflexible and fixed in her thinking as she was twenty years before?

Well, I think that's just a poor reflection on her (or the writing, and I don't think RJ did a bad job of writing her).

Damn it, and I was trying not to get back into the whole Cadsuane argument thing again! Foolish me. :)

Incidentally, I agree that only an idiot would walk into a room and provoke the Dragon Reborn without some serious protective mojo. There's a big difference between cowardice and caution. But I think the reason Rand never laid a finger on her (and ordered the Asha'man not to) is because of his issue with harming women more than a reflection of Cadsuane's skill.

If she tried to pull some of that crap on me, I'd have tried to shield her at the very least. But then, I'm not as nice as Rand.

Edit: Argh! Bad word choice!
348. ValMar
Thanks M-o-M. I have the book at hand but I am too "busy" to check (switching between 2 football games and US vs Norway in Vancouver). I think you are right. So Moiraine probably seemed to Cads willfull and Green (given the way the old harrigan's mind works).
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean but darkfriend and Black is the same for AS. As for who else Mo thought was and wasn't darkfriend, well, that just shows just how "good" was her darkfriend radar back then.
Steven Pattingale
349. Pattingale
Regarding Forsaken not knowing the WoT common tongue:

Given that there are weaves to torture, heal, and control the mind I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a weave to learn a skill that another possessed. Since the Forsaken have knowledge from the AoL they may well know such a weave. It doesn't explain Aginor & Balthamel ... perhaps like Ishy they were buried closer to the surface and picked up some common that way.
James Jones
350. jamesedjones
342 SteelBlaidd
I think one of the other differences is that in tGS Mat is Gambleing as WORK because he has to feed his men.
Maybe, but have you ever been to Vegas and experienced a run? Have you ever hunkered down behind a hand of cards with your friends and did everything in your power to take all of their money from them? And... aren't you an EQ Pres?! If not, please forgive me. I get all of us (including myself) mixed up sometimes. Plenty of desperate idiots go to Nevada to win money that they need. It's not very different from what Mat did when they wouldn't sell him any food. I still can't see this part as well written.
Tricia Irish
351. Tektonica
Toryx@347; FWIW, I agree with everything you've said. So glad I don't have to say it!

How did we get back on Cads? Very powerful character...she's had our panties in a bunch for two weeks now! And more to come.....oh oh.

*twitchy twitch twitch*
Marcus W
352. toryx
Tektonica @ 351:


And yeah...ouch! I thought it was something wrong with my chair. Damn that Cadsuane! :)
James Jones
353. jamesedjones

After your comment, I'm not 100% sure why you're twitching.
Tricia Irish
354. Tektonica

I'm "well adjusted", thank you....LOL.
Tricia Irish
355. Tektonica
Hey, anyone read Sanderson's story listed on the masthead? I'm only about half way through.

It reminded me of Enders Game at first, but it's taking a twist.....

Just thought you all might be interested......It's called Firstborn.
Bonnie Andrews
356. misfortuona
You are good at this "Defense against the Dark Cadsuane' thing you do.

I actually meant to make the 20 year point, but was too busy well Not making other points. Yep, I’d have been pretty surprised actually if RJ had written her different in NS and then tried to sell us that she’d somehow grown between then and now. Especially since what she had been doing was working. Like it or not, thats what we have to believe because RJ says its that way.

Now I never called Cads a bully, well maybe I did, but that’s only because Tam did it first ;P
Seriously you may be right that she doesn’t actually bully Rand, but she certainly does other people in the books. She doesn’t always channel to do it but she uses the knowledge of her strength and her venerable reputation to coerce people into doing things that they do not wish to, or would not do otherwise.

It could be argued that she doesn’t bully Rand in the same way because she knows he could ‘squash her like a bug.’ I don’t agree with that, by the way.
I think she actually intends to try to guide him, not bully him. It’s just that she’s so irritating about it.
I certainly don't believe Cads is stupid, exactly the opposite in fact. Anyway I agree with the wisdom of having the hattrick in place. We wouldn’t laud the bravery of a race driver who didn’t wear his seatbelt, we’d call him a fool.

This does have me wondering though. Presumably the hattrick keeps her from being shielded, as well as any other weave. But could she have stopped him from shielding himself against her, using something like the AS did against the Shaido. What if he had simply decided to forgo the OP and run her through? If her little ornaments protect her against all of this, then maybe we’re back to square one.
Might makes right =Cadsuane=Migraine

By the way Mat’s luck. Mat a bully? No way! A cheat, maybe, even a thief, but not a bully! Yes he took advantage of his Luck, but he never uses it to force anyone to do anything. I maybe splitting hairs, but a different thing in my book.

Mis-sorry for the wall-o-text.

Insectoid@346 Probably and you should see it.
Julian Augustus
357. Alisonwonderland
With her ter'angreal, she can at least avoid being crushed like a bug if he wigs out. She still couldn't do anything more to him than maybe whack him upside the head.

That is patently incorrect, Wetlander. Let's go step by step through the argument, if you will. Cadsuane is one of the strongest female channelers alive. Fact. Rand is the strongest male channeler alive, with the possible exception of Moridin. Also Fact.

But, Cadsuane is protected from Rand's channeling (of the one power) by her ter'angreals. You don't dispute that, I hope? Okay, Rand does not have any ter'angreals protecting him from Cadsuane's (or any other person's) channelling. Also not in dispute, I hope.

So what do we have here? Cadsuane can do anything she wants to Rand- hit him with a switch, wrap him up with air, put him in a box, anything, and he will be powerless to stop her by himself (before he started to channel the true power in TGS, that is).

Does Cadsuane know that she has a ter'angreal that will stop Rand from laying a finger on her? You bet she does. Does she know that Rand has no similar protection against her channelling? Definitely. Ergo, does she know that she can strike Rand with the o.p. and he can't protect himself or strike back even if he wanted to? Of course.

So what more do you want in order to define a bully? I admire your attempts to be a devil's advocate on behalf of Cadsuane, but arguing against Cadsuane being a bully pre-TGS is misplaced, in my opinion. I'll be interested in seeing which part of my argument above you disagree with.
Karen Fox
358. thepupxpert
Hi I just wanted to weigh in on reading New Spring, I read it after I had read the series a couple of times. It took me way longer than 3/4 of an hour (I bought the hardback so maybe it's a longer story?) and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it brought great insight into some of the main characters in the series, it was amazingly poignant and touching and really tied it together for me. I admit I was completely confused during most of reading Eye of the World the first time around, and now that I've read New Spring it has helped me to understand the whole backstory. Definitely worth a read IMO.
Marcus W
359. toryx
One more post and I'm done for the day.

Alisonwonderland @ 357:

Actually, I'm going to disagree. Rand's flows may not harm Cadsuane but that doesn't make him helpless. He could cut the weaves that Cadsuane throws at him, and if he needed to he could drop the ceiling down on her head. Or throw large chunks of the wall, floor, furniture, whatever.

Sure, it might take him a few seconds to figure out how to hurt her, but he could certainly avoid being shielded and bound with air.

He might not know right away how to cut the weaves but if Cadsuane makes him angry and desperate enough, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "memory" suddenly came to him and he did it without thinking about it like he does so much else.

If worse comes to worse, he could just Travel the hell out of there.

Which actually, makes me think of an something. What happens if someone opens a Gateway on the spot where a person with a ter'angreal against the One Power is standing? Totally irrelevant, but interesting.
Thomas Keith
360. insectoid
Mis @356: Well okay, maybe I will. :)
Cad-vil-suane? (apologies for bad pun)

*twitch twitch*

362. ValMar
And it was a welcome distraction from the occasional tedium of the main series. I am surprised at some of the indifference to it here.
But there will be a re-read of NS so more about it later, the light willing.
Bonnie Andrews
363. misfortuona
You do a decent job of arguing that Cadsuane could have bullied Rand, (see Toryx@359 for rebuttal) but the thing is, I’m no longer certain that what she did was bullying. Maybe she tried to bully him, but if she did it failed.
She seems to have all the cards here, but the thing is Rand doesn’t know she does. Which means from his point of view it is he, not Cads, who is in the place of power during this meeting. He knows that he is stronger than any of the AS he has met, and while he might not ‘trust’ the AS in the room he expects the Ashaman to back him. What he is facing, from his point of view, is not a threat, but an arrogant, demanding stranger. Yes an AS and one the other AS in the room seem to respect/fear, but can you really claim that at any point during that audience Rand seemed frightened of Cadsuane?

Mis-it feels so wrong defending her

Insectoid@360 LOL
Maiane Bakroeva
364. Isilel
MoM @345:

Also, another item that would be useful is one that detects a man channeling. That might be just one of the reasons she has found more male channelers than anyone else.

And as always I have to wonder how she managed to avoid finding and sending to the WT a slew of female sparkers. I mean, chances of coming across either would be the same. Any strange events that would cause her (and indeed the Reds) come and investigate would have been similar no matter the gender of the sparker.

One of the least plausible elements of the saga - the all-time low in novices in WT when the Amyrlin knew about the impending TG, Moiraine was roaming around ditto and seemingly had some experience with wilders as per her outing of Nynaeve and legendary Cadsuane and her cadre of faithful were prowling around ditto.
I mean, they all must have went out of their ways to avoid discovering and recruiting dozens of sparkers/wilders.

Speaking of Cadsuane, I already hated her for what her appearance portended for the series (which came to pass, alas) after it was hinted in LoC that Moiraine would be back and I couldn't wait for it to happen. Le sigh.

But I also hated Cadsuane because I actually liked the AS of books 1-5, before they were hit with the stupid stick and the idiot brigade showed up.

No, IMHO we didn't see them as mythical creatures - for one thing we already saw them from each others and SG's POVs from TGH onwards and it certainly highlighted their human flaws.

However, they were plausible as members of a powerful organization that, unlike nation states and WCs, managed to eschew direct violence to assert itself and had higher goals for the world than narrow interests of various countries, etc.

They were people who were individually up to facing the constant danger and responsibility that they were subject to in the world. Unless they were DFs, that is. Even Elaida was effective and believable.

Anyway, then RJ felt the need to reduce the collective IQ of AS into the negatives.

And _then_ Cadsuane showed up to counteract that a little - supposedly the ideal of an old-school AS. But for a legend she is shockingly unimpressive/implausible.

For one thing - what does a legendary AS do? Provided that she doesn't fight in the Blight as any Green really should. It is easy to make a Great Captain sound awesome - we know what generals are all about. But Cadsuane's claim to fame is very vague.

And of course, she is only a top dog among the AS because she is the strongest. Well, duh. Not hard, is it? How does it differentiate her from SGs, for instance?
Ditto finding and capturing all those male channelers when she had her set of ter'angrial.

If RJ wanted her to be a believable legend - she should have been the one to buckle the system through her strength of personality, intelligence, knowledge, skill, fame and age. That right there would have told me that she is deserving of respect. But no...

And the spanking fetish... double sigh.
Ron Garrison
365. Man-0-Manetheran
Alisonwonderland @ 357:
"Cadsuane is protected from Rand's channeling (of the one power) by her ter'angreals." Not fact. Assumption. Good assumption on our collective part, perhaps, but never stated by the author.

"So what more do you want in order to define a bully?" Well, for one: that she did ANY of these things of which you accuse her.

Isilel @ 364:
Interesting thought, but we have no evidence that she didn't send any females to the Tower. She may very well have done so. RJ simply may not have had a reason to add that info.
Joseph Blaidd
366. SteelBlaidd
Was, I got released in Dec.

I've played alot of Texas Hold'em with my wifes family, for Chips, and one of my favorite memories from collage is taking the table in a penny ante poker game. I won't argue that the that particular scene is weaker than th other gambling scenes, but that dosent change that he's playing for different reasons, and with a different strategy, then we have seen previously.

I think Cadsuane does have several metods for dealing with people, we see it when shes talking with her informer in Bandar Eban. However in order to pull out a new technique it is requisite to decide that what your doing is not working. I don't think she had the time to come to that conclusion, in part because, in some ways, it was working. Rand was starting to control his temper and just before the attack he was showing willing to open up to Min about what he was going through.

It's 127 days between Rands first meeting with Rand and Simerhages escape. In the first 50 days between their first meeting in Cairhein and Cadsuane following him to Far Madding the spend maybe 2 Hours together in which Rand is not unconcious. Its almost two more weeks(ours) before he askes her to be his Advisor giving her a grand total of 64 days of direct time in which to try to influence him.
Bonnie Andrews
367. misfortuona
"So what more do you want in order to define a bully?" Well, for one: that she did ANY of these things of which you accuse her.

Exactly :)

No evidence that Cads didn't send females to the tower. Well not prior to the last 70 years, but if she had been sending them recently more people would have known she was still alive.
and 'irrelevant' the argument, not Cads

Mis-butting in
Ron Garrison
368. Man-0-Manetheran
Mis: "if she had been sending them recently more people would have known she was still alive."

True. Good point. Since no one was doing much in the way of sending female channelers to the Tower, it would have stuck out.
Rob Munnelly
370. RobMRobM
tek @355 - Yes, I read Firstborn several months ago and re-read it this week when it made it back to left hand column. It is BS's first attempt at SF and I found it to be very well done. He has a second SF story available on his website and that one also is well done.
Julian Augustus
379. Alisonwonderland
Toryx @ 359:

Imagine the complete shock of all those AS who channelled at Mat and saw how the flows simply melted when they touched him? Even the forsaken, Halima, was flabbergasted when she tried channelling at Mat. Sure, from your vantage point as areader who knows the limitations of Mat's ter'angreal you can blightly say, oh Rand will simply drop something on her head. Do you recall how many days it took for the AS to figure that out? Second, why are you assuming that Cadsuane's TA has the same limitations as Mat's?
Rob Munnelly
380. RobMRobM
@346 - Yes, you are the only person here not to see the Princess Bride and yes you should see it promptly.

Even better, read the book by William Goldman (world famous screenwriter - Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - and author - Marathon Man, Magic, etc.), which is even more hilarious then the very funny movie version. The backstory of the guy who tries to hunt down the original book his grandfather read out loud to him and got him fascinated in reading so he can give it to his own spoiled kid and change his life, only to find that the book is unreadable because his grandfather only read him the "good parts," thereby giving him the idea to create the "good parts" version of the S. Morganstern classic -- is freaking hilarious.
Ron Garrison
381. Man-0-Manetheran
The Princess Bride. Yes, one of those movies that even if it's playing on the TVs in an electronics store, you will stand and watch it. ...maybe even until the end. Two thumbs up.
Tricia Irish
382. Tektonica
Mis@363: etal.

but can you really claim that at any point during that audience Rand seemed frightened of Cadsuane?

It can be argued that there are really only two emotions:
Love and Fear.
Anger is certainly an outgrowth of Fear. And Rand was angry. I think he was terribly threatened emotionally by her, yet savvy enough to stay his hand. He is pretty darn fearful of any Aes Sedai at this point and untrusting, given his recent history with them. Also, he is probably generally frustrated with many situations in Randland. So yeah, I think he was afraid. The Fear and frustration just manifested as anger.

Thanks RobM, I'll check out Brandon's site for the other story. What's with all his "___born" titles?

BTW, we're working on raising money for your fee for lobbying Torie by having a Bake Sale in the Bunker. How many cookies do we need to sell?
Rob Munnelly
383. RobMRobM
Tek - My usual rate is $400/hour but I'll give you a substantial discount - at least 25% off the top. Keep in mind that it's all about the overall value rather than just the price. Rob
Tricia Irish
384. Tektonica
RobM: I hope you're curing cancer for that fee! And it's not for's for All Of Us!

Do any pro bono work?
Rob Munnelly
385. RobMRobM
@384 - I give. I'm resigned to being paid in snickerdoodles and will enjoy them immensely.
Thomas Keith
386. insectoid
RobM² @380, M-0-M @381: I'll see if I can find it.

Tek @382: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads... to suffering!"

John Massey
387. subwoofer
@Is- forgetaboutit. That was the last thread and I am not going to beat a dead horse, so thanks for bringing up Caddy... again. I said what I said. I stand by it. As much as it grinds on me that people are as tenacious as my terrier about this. In the same post I answer the very question you asked.- 417

Back to no one saying two words about what Mo said in her letter. I'm walking away here. I suggest others do the same. Never too early to pi$$ off Santa. Maybe- here's a thought- we give up discussing Caddy for Lent. 40 days of peace. Oh joy!

@Rob- you charge $400/hr to bake cookies?! Those must be some fancy cookies.

John Massey
388. subwoofer
Lemme introduce you to the power of the edit button...

John Massey
393. subwoofer
What in the name of Poseidon?! Last four comments balefired!

John Massey
394. subwoofer
For instance....

John Massey
395. subwoofer

John Massey
396. subwoofer
Or serenity

John Massey
397. subwoofer
Yes I am feeling Serenity speak to me now...

John Massey
398. subwoofer
Weeeee! Okay, not much on the WoT front- but I'm here for some fun...

John Massey
399. subwoofer
'K, I'm a bad Sub... guess I'll go to my kennel...

Not gonna talk about the OB- no matter how many people wail on poor old Bela.

John Massey
400. subwoofer
Yay! I'll give me my own prize:)

Thomas Keith
401. insectoid
Sub @388-400: That's really naughty of you, you know. ;)

John Massey
402. subwoofer
Naughty? Well, yes, yes I am. But I gotta be me:)

And I did say I'm here for fun. Had to shake off the blues from dealing with the Old Biddy. Feel much better now. Getting too serious for me.

Barry T
403. blindillusion
Hmm...Tek, I don't know. I'd say Love and Hate are the only emotions and all others are simply lesser variations of these two. After all, one could postulate that Love and Hate are actually the same emotion...different sides of the same coin as it were. I've always looked at it like this:

Love_____Indifference_____Hate. As such, indifference is the worst thing a person can feel. =) (Which, by the by, is the direction Rand was heading. Scary.)

Oh yeah, Pattingale @ 349...something of a moot point, but thought you might like to read it:
Week 14 Question: If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."
Alice Arneson
404. Wetlandernw
subwoofer, you are totally too funny. :)

toryx @347, you said exactly what I meant: there's a big difference between cowardice and caution. As for your reaction to being treated that way... granted that Rand has a thing about harming women, it hasn't stopped him from shielding a woman he thought might try something. But he's never even tried to shield Cadsuane, which tells me he has never considered her much of a threat. Or else she's a mighty ta'veren herself.

As for "not learning anything new" - I assume that, having spent 200 years developing her own ways of interacting with people in general and male channelers in particular, she's settled into what generally works best for her, and that's not going to show great changes over the last 20 of the 200 years. I'm sure the first 20, and even the first 100, would have shown huge changes, but the last 20? Not so much.

Man-o-Manetheren @345 - I sorta figured the detector-greal was what she referred to as "I seem to have a nose".

misfortuona@356 - Well, we know she wants to guide him. What we don't know is where, why, how, and in what regard. Most readers assume that she wants to guide his handling of Tarmon Gai'don and all that. (Every other character seems to want to do that, so I suppose the reader can be forgiven the assumption...) I've started to at least consider the possiblity that she simply wants to guide him into handling the Power and the taint in a way that will enable him to stay sane longer, and will let him worry about how to handle TG. (We have to remember that no one, at this juncture, has any idea that he will actually cleanse saidin). Not that she'd stand idly by and watch him do something obviously stupid, if she could help it. One thing I'm sure of - Cadsuane does not suffer fools gladly! As for him deciding to just run her through with a sword, yeah, she was taking that risk, although there's a good chance she could use Air or something to at least make it more difficult for him. I'm pretty sure the ornaments only protect her from direct weaves.

Alisonwonderland @357 - I had a great rebuttal all written, and found that others beat me to it. At this point, I'm just going to say that you are obviously never going to be convinced that she's not a bully, and your arguments are insufficient to convince me that she is. So. Impasse. 'Nuff said.
Ron Garrison
405. Man-0-Manetheran
The TGS Open Spoiler Thread, Parts 1 & 2 has now reached over 5000 posts. Congrats to RobMRobM for hitting the magic number and to subwoofer and all for pushing us to the goal line. Hopefully we might get a Part 3 or another forum per Tek's suggestion. If not, I think maybe we should just stop posting to the TGS thread and hopefully someone at Tor will notice. Just a thought...

Oh, and Wet, you have "a nose" for details and can string them together into some awesome posts. Here's lookin' at you kid!
Alice Arneson
406. Wetlandernw
Thank you, kind sir. I love this stuff. Unfortunately, though I recognize the line, my movie-fu is not up to popping in good quotes in reply... ;)
Rob Munnelly
409. RobMRobM
FYI - my attempt to cross-post my petition to Torie/Pablo re a new post from the TGS spoiler thread was flagged as possible spam and was sent to moderator hell. Darn you,!!

Thomas Keith
410. insectoid
We'll always have Paris. :)

For everyone's convenience: RobM's Petition to

Rob Munnelly
411. RobMRobM
@403 - name this tune. I thought you'd find the third sentence below amusing.

Bit obscure but off of a high selling, influential album:

Now every cheap hood strikes a bargain with the world. And ends up making payments on a sofa or a girl. Love and hate tatooed across the knuckles of his hands. Hands that slap his kids around cause they don't understand how becomes just another story. becomes just another story.
412. TyRANDosarus
RobM @ 411

Death or Glory.

SOunds like Lan might have said.
Rob Munnelly
413. RobMRobM
@412-Ding ding. A winner. Although, some may wonder the name of group and/or album.
Birgit F
414. birgit
What happens if someone opens a Gateway on the spot where a person with a ter'angreal against the One Power is standing?

I think if you try to open a gateway where another gateway is already open it gets displaced so they don't overlap. A ter'angreal that blocks channeling might have the same effect.

On the TGS thread someone suggested counting how often we mentioned Cadsuane. I simply used the search of Expression Web to search for Cad (both Leigh's text and comments).

ACoS 11: 571
ACos 12: 383
TGS 2: 154

Now I get a preview of an earlier comment on the TGS thread when I try to post here.
Marcus W
415. toryx
misfortuona @ 363:

Yes an AS and one the other AS in the room seem to respect/fear, but can you really claim that at any point during that audience Rand seemed frightened of Cadsuane?

I'd say that there was one thing that definitely rattled, if not frightened, Rand. Cadsuane's comment about voices in his head. I don't think he felt threatened by her, exactly, but he was definitely unnerved not only by the suggestion but the possibility that she knew about it.

Man-O @ 365:

Interesting thought, but we have no evidence that she didn't send any females to the Tower. She may very well have done so. RJ simply may not have had a reason to add that info.

But even still, Isilel's point is still valid. Cadsuane could well have sent the occasional girl to the tower but we know that Cadsuane was wandering the earth for 20 years and that the Tower was still at its lowest number of Novices and Accepted in ages, so she couldn't have paid much attention or their numbers would have been far higher.

SteelBlaidd @ 366:

That's a pretty good analysis, and I can't really find fault with any of it. But I still think it's...odd...that she defaulted to a standard tactic with the Dragon Reborn without knowing very much about him.

I also think that Cadsuane's first impression wouldn't have been remotely successful in terms of making him want to deal with her if it hadn't been for Min and her vision. I could be putting too much emphasis on that but it seems as though there were a lot of times when if it hadn't been for Min Rand would have had Cadsuane escorted firmly, and far, away.

Alisonwonderland @ 379:

Sure, Rand would have been shocked. But his entire experience since leaving the Two Rivers has been one "impossibility" after another. I think he's moved to the point where he reacts a lot faster than the AS at astonishing events. He certainly isn't as fixed in tradition and learning as they.

Even if he didn't think of dropping the ceiling on her (which, frankly, I don't think he would have even considered even if he had thought of it) he was still a long way from defenseless.

Second, why are you assuming that Cadsuane's TA has the same limitations as Mat's?

We have no reason not to. And even if it doesn't have the same limitations, it's irrelevant since he wouldn't try to harm her anyway. But he could certainly protect himself without much difficulty.
Lannis .
416. Lannis
M A T @ 280: Thanks for the warm welcome! I brought us a rainbow cake to the bunker, celebrating the other thread's 5000 mark, so we can snack while we wait for Leigh's post... or, you know, we could use it to contribute to the bake sale?

Wetlander @ 284: Yes, that's kind of been my problem... along with just regular RL goings on... been lurking the site during the week (really enjoying Dan Goldman's Red Light Properties), but not a real presence until Fridays. "Drifting" is the right word, all right...

RobM @314: I totally agree, the 13thD is excellent, for exactly the reasons you state. :)

jamesedjones @ 315: Didn't put 2 and 2 together there until you said it, now I'm going to be giggling every time someone posts "Free and Wet." BAHAHAHA!

Now, Re: the "Old Timer" requirements... I believe it's when you started participating in the reread posts as they were posted, ie: I began commenting on current conversations back in mid-tGH, so I'd be an "Old Timer." Many folks took longer to find the party, but all are certainly welcome! More opinions/insights = more learning!

Sub, I think Torie's going to use that dingle ball as leverage to make you quit the multi-post thing... :O Silly pup! ;)

Speaking of New Spring... Question! Publishing order... yes, I know I've had ample opportunity to notice the numerable times that Leigh has nicely told us when New Spring would occur in the reread, but it hasn't stuck... when will we be tackling it? Kthanxbai. ;)

Bonnie Andrews
417. misfortuona
Good morning everyone, and Happy Friday.
I see someone was a bad woofer last night. Sorry I missed the party, but I had a major home computer failure last night. That means I'm tired, and silly, to go along with twitchy today.
Sorry in advance folks.

I did a pre-post re-read last night while waiting for downloads, and I am sooo stoked for todays comments from Leigh.
Also I had the same 'ban the Old Biddy comments' idea as Sub. Let the old girl rest for a bit. (Only I don't think I can. She keeps creeping in where she isn't wanted)

Oh WOT, yeah right. Well
Love and Fear? Huh, interesting pairing. Never really considered that concept before.

I think you've almost, almost, made me question enough that I can see it might be possible, given time, to actually like Cads. Can I Love to tolerate her?

Yes, I suppose he might have felt a moment of fear when she commented on the voices, but that would have been fear of himself more than her and what she might do to him.
Really the only thing to fear from her knowing, would be her outing him, and she'd allready done that.

Mis- All I wanna do is have some fun, and I got the feelin I'm not the only one. (On the radio this morning)
John Massey
419. subwoofer
Wha? Who me? I dina do it... just having fun...whistles

I gotta be a rebel...

This Rainbow cake idea has my vote. Crazy, I can't bake myself, and my wife is banned from using the oven by the City of Edmonton Fire soooo going to have to rely on the kindness of strangers.

Do all males hear LTT's voice or any voice in general or is it just the Dragons? So Taim and Loggy, definite false dragons.

John Massey
420. subwoofer
As for the O.B.- let's let it go... can't we all just put our behind in our past here?

Waiting for Leigh... What's on the menu?

Ron Garrison
421. Man-0-Manetheran
I think you got it right: "I don't think he felt threatened by her, exactly, but he was definitely unnerved not only by the suggestion but the possibility that she knew about it."

Rand has been hiding it pretty successfully up to that point. Many notice him being distracted or his attention drifting, but they don't know why. In fact, he's hiding lots of things that he fears will make people think he's weak. He forbade the AS to tell anyone about the kidnapping and torture.

So, "unnerved" is just the right term when this stranger pops in and puts her finger right on his button.

And, yes, I think a moritorium on Cads is good for awhile. Especially since no new ground is being covered. Like a Warder, I feel a need to jump to her defense from time to time, but I'll curb that impulse for now. All I ask is that people keep an open mind. THX!
John Massey
422. subwoofer
I am not sure that it is the perception of weakness that Rand is worried about. Bottom line, men go crazy and either have to be put down or gentled... as no one has thought to find a cure. Anyways, if Rand shows that he hears voices, in his head, not his own, and talks to them, what is everyone else going to thing other than the initial knee jerk- "the Dragon has gone bananas".

Still not sure about the rational of keeping his box thing a secret. Heck, I'd want it well documented then put all the responsible parties to a trial. Stilling and fealty is a start, but the people moving the pawns have had no reprisals for their actions.

John Massey
423. subwoofer

Killing time waiting for UPS- Take a wild guess what I stumbledupon?

Lannis .
424. Lannis
Re: Hiding the Rand-in-a-box

I agree with Sub... get it out there! Putting the guilty parties on trial and publishing the names of the responsible (re: Elaida and her cohorts), would shift public power to the SAS, wouldn't it? As well as, you know, putting the fear of the Creator into Rand's enemies...

Yes, bound and tied the best ways possible, cut off from saidin the most effective way known, locked in a box, and BAM! Dude still blasts his way out, searing the ability to channel out of the AS holding his wards, and basically kicks a bunch of AS ass...

Granted, a big ol' mass of backup arrived at the same time, but the fact that Rand was the one to release himself from the box of doom would surely scare bunch of fence-sitting AS or rulers into siding with Rand...?

Am I out on a limb here?

Where's Leigh? :)
Bonnie Andrews
425. misfortuona
Yes, I can say I'm very glad that I don't live in a world where you risk death just for hearing a voice or two in your head.

Sub, I just gotta know do you have a personal interest in youtube?
Nice sounds for the morning by the way.

It would sure be nice to see some personal justice laid out to the 'ladies' behind his kidnapping. Gallina may be recieving an appropriate punishment but it's a little empty for Rand since he doesn't know about it. Maybe he'll hear about it from Faile.

Mis- How long is this going to take?
Marcus W
427. toryx
subwoofer @ 422 & Lannis @ 424:

I'm of two minds on Rand's decision to keep the details of his captivity secret.

On the one hand, he's constantly being watched by anyone and everyone for the slightest sign of weakness: The nobles he is spending so much time keeping in line, the Aes Sedai, the Aiel, and the Forsaken are all ravening wolves that would react at the slightest sign of weakness.

So I think that keeping quiet about all the days he spent locked up in the chest makes a great deal of sense. He doesn't want to give anyone any ideas about how it almost worked.

On the other hand, I agree: Not only did he escape, but he kicked ass when he did so, and not a one of those AS who abducted and tortured him will be able to forget the consequences for keeping him caged. It'd be nice if he could point out what happens to anyone who tries to mess with him.

But once you let the cat out of the bag, there's no putting it back. All in all, keeping mum on the detail was probably the politically correct thing for him to do.
Ron Garrison
428. Man-0-Manetheran
And then there's the "Failure to Communicate" theme of the book. Everyone wants to hold their cards close to their chest - usually to the detriment of the team. I was going to say Team Light, but the Forsaken Team (LOL) is no better.
Alice Arneson
429. Wetlandernw
subwoofer @423 - Oh, now that was EXCELLENT! Judi Dench would do a suberb Cadsuane! The only ones I didn't think were quite right: Lan didn't look dangerous enough, and Moghedien was too pretty. Otherwise - cool! What can I say, except for a few hair-color issues, they pretty well fit my own mental images. Cool find!!!!!
430. Lsana
The problem with Rand revealing what happened during his abduction is that many people won't believe it. His own allies are a bit suspicious when he gets back, and they've seen him kick ass before. What are total strangers going to think? Some of them will probably be awed by the story of Rand's amazing powers, but in all honestly, they are the people who would have been awed anyway. Others are going to think, "So 13 Aes Sedai had him bound and shielded and in a box, and he just escaped? Without any help? Yeah right!" Those people are going to assume that the AS let him go, either because he made a deal with them or because they had managed to compel him or because he was their ally all along. Either way, if the story gets out, many people are going to assume he is controlled by the Tower.
Lannis .
431. Lannis
Sub @ 423: excellent little gem! I also watched his tGH trailer... not bad, either.

But... Jeremy Irons + Kate Beckinsale = ACK! :|

I mean, good casting, bad visual...

Buddy's going to get a few more views now that you've linked this... Ha!

toryx @ 427 & M-O-M @ 428: I'm with both of you... I think toryx said it right with being of two minds. I totally want to see the guilty parties get their comeuppance. I heart Rand--I wish he saw more hands-on justice for his baggage. But yes, it's that damned lack of communication thing...
Ron Garrison
432. Man-0-Manetheran
Super find, sub! And, seemingly as always, I totally agree with Wetlandernw: Judi Dench! I picture Lan as much more hulking, but all in all, an excellent casting job. (And Wet - actors can change their hair color now...)
Bonnie Andrews
433. misfortuona
Doubt anyone will miss it with all the F5ing going on but Torie posted a response to RobM's petition.

Alice Arneson
434. Wetlandernw
In a sense, Rand did need help to escape; the AS holding his shield would not have tied it off if the Shaido hadn't attacked and drawn their attentions. Ironic, isn't it, that all he needed was his enemies? Everyone else could have stayed away; once they tied off the shield, he could burst out of what was left. Once he found Min, he could have simply gated out, and left the TAS and Shaido to do their best to wipe each other out.

Man-o-Manetheren @ 432 - yeah, that's why I didn't object to them. Just thinking that if I change the hair color they match my visualizations fairly well - didn't say it clearly, though, did I?

Now I'll be chuckling all day at Judi Dench doing Cadsuane. Oh, I'd dearly love to see that.
Ron Garrison
435. Man-0-Manetheran

(Be sure to add "obsequious flattery.")
Bonnie Andrews
436. misfortuona
Yes Judi's just the one to play the old Dame.
What? Somebody had to say it...

Mis-refusing to go to the bunker till I've read the new post.

edit Oh shoot, thanks MOM. I heart TOR, and especially Torie. They are the best and Torie should play Lanfear. :)
Ron Garrison
437. Man-0-Manetheran
"Dame" - I see what you did there! And a woman of Ms. Dench's stature can be as rude as she wants. I'd still be impressed by her.

...and polite.
438. alreadymadwithMofMI6
I don't know. Not to disparage Dame Judi Dench's acting, but I'm kinda having trouble imagining her with a bun. Hard core of an M she is without a doubt, though.
Rob Munnelly
439. RobMRobM
Can someone post the info on Woof's link for general review? My work internet filter blocks the site. R
Alice Arneson
440. Wetlandernw
Not sure... is this what you meant?

Hope you can get to it - it's fun.
Bonnie Andrews
441. misfortuona
Ah RobM
This is Sub we're talking about. Which of the dozens do you mean?

Rob Munnelly
442. RobMRobM
Can't get to whatever it is that has Irons, Beckinsale, Dench, etc. R
Marcus W
443. toryx
Wetlandernw @ 440:

RobM (and I, actually) can't go to youtube. So he was asking if someone would explain what it is you guys are talking about. With, you know, words.

Jeff Weston
444. JWezy
Oh, come on! You can't adequately convey meaning with just words, can you?

Oh... Yeah.
Ron Garrison
445. Man-0-Manetheran
Sub's link was to a very well done faux opening credits for the Crown of Swords movie. All the main characters are cast with a series of still photos and "Dame Judi Dench as Cadsuane Meladrien." Quite authentic looking production, and if you can get it on another computer, it's worth the look.

Oh, and THANKS RobMRobM for your work. I can see why you get $400/hour when you are that effective.
stephanie keenan
446. adriel_moonstar
Isilel @364

Much as I hate to say it I think you may be doing a disservice to all of the manhunters (reds as well as the OB), when you say that they should be finding lots of female "sparkers" while they are out looking for men.

For one thing, events that would draw attention to a man channeling (especially once the taint has taken hold) would be things like fires, landslides, buildings collapsing...the male powers. Not actually all that similar to female wilders so-called "tricks".

The other thing is that there is a pretty small window in which the "old" Tower would be interested in a girl as a possible novice. There are only a few years between the time the spark manifests and the girl either dies or becomes a wilder. The tower looked down on wilders and would only take them if they were still young enough to be "good" novices. So even if the hunters found many women with the spark, most would be "unsuitable".

I actually have a theory about the low number of novices in the Tower versus the large number that Egwene's group have found.

All the references to the decline refer to "a thousand years" i.e. the time of Hawkwing and the hundred years war. Lots of people have commented that there should be more sisters out in the world. (Yellows should be looking for patients, Browns should be doing research, etc.) I suspect that before Hawkwing they were more active. They may not have engaged in active recruiting, but just being out where girls could see them would have been a type of passive recruiting. (A girl who has never seen a sister is much less likely to have any interest in becoming a nun, I mean Aes Sedai.)

But we know that most AS were driven back to the tower and basically held there for twenty years. Between the Siege of Tar Valon and the ensuing century of war the stream of novices must have been choked off for quite some time. And once it was over, new sisters were in the habit of staying in the tower, making them more remote than ever.

This could easily lead to a self perpetuating decline in applicants. Fewer girls are inspired by meeting actual AS. Which in turn means that fewer are inspired by a relative, friend, or girl from the next village who went to the tower. Which eventually leads to most girls not even thinking about the possibility. Which leads to an all time low in the number of novices.

However, in the long run this may not be a bad thing in terms of the final battle.

Remember how the Whites theorized that the Reds gentling was culling the ability to channel? I think they were partly right, but missed the actual point by a mile. The number of men removed from the gene pool is a tiny fraction of the number of women removed between the tower and the Kin. (If they don't marry and have children, they might as well be dead as far as the gene pool is concerned.)

The failure of the White Tower's "make them come to us" policy, actually leads to many more potential channelers being born and therefore available to the SAS.
Julian Augustus
447. Alisonwonderland
About the language issue. I remember reading an explanation by RJ in the old days that the people in the books actually spoke with varying accents, prononciations, vocabulary, etc., but that since he's a nice guy he's translated it all into English for his readers.

We might also remember that the forsaken are not taken to making grand speeches and giving explanations to their minions. They just give orders and expect to be obeyed instantly with no back-talk. For that, only a limited new tongue vocabulary would be needed most of the time. When they have to communicate with each other they use the old tongue.
448. JanDSedai
In reference to the White Tower numbers dwindling, you have to remember that The Black Ajah has had great influence for at least 70 years. The ineffectiveness of the Green Ajah at the time of the fall of Malkier, (-50 yrs ago), can be attributed to the Green having at least one Sitter in the Hall. The BA would not want strong and developed personalities in the Tower, but would lean to malleable youngsters.
Joseph Blaidd
449. SteelBlaidd
To me the fact that she is dealing with the Dragon Reborn actulaly makes it more likly she will fall back on her favorite techniques. When you are in a high stress situation you go to the tools you know best.

As to her entrance, I don't think her aproach to him was the best way, so much as it was the least bad of the available options. Coming in blunt and honest at least makes her different the TAS embassy and Weiramon and co.

The casting videos looked real good, I would add Betty White or Angela Lansbury as Verin, Sean Conery as Davram Bashere and I still think I prefer Julie Andrews(Mary Popins) to Judi Dench(M) for Cadsuane. I'd cast Dame Judy as Pevara.


I think your theory is spot on. I n addition, there are only about 1000 AS at the moment sub tracting out the 400-600 that are in the Tower at any one time the likly hood of any of them being within notice distance of Potential novices in the target period is prety small. Especialy the ones in little bity towns in the middle of nowhere,
Bonnie Andrews
450. misfortuona
For RobM Since you're such a great litigator. Here is a written list of who’s who on the Sub’s link

Perrin – Henry Cavill
Faile – Claudia Black
Berelain – Emily Blunt
Rand – Kevin Zegers
Min – Carey Mulligan
Elayne – Amanda Seyfried
Aviendha – Michelle Williams
Nynaeve - Mia Kirshner
Lan -Stephen Lang
Birgitte – Sienna Miller
Mat – Garrett Hedlund
Annette O’Toole – Tylin
Ian McShane – Thom Merilin
Evan Rachel Wood – Egwene
Bradley James – Gawyn
Jensen Ackles – Galad
Kate Beckinsale – Siuan Sanche
Jeremy Irons- Gareth Bryne
Rupert Friend – Mazrim Taim
Ricard Roxburgh – Sammael
Eva Green – Moghedian
Michelle Pfeiffer – Morgase
Matt Keelsar – Martyn Tallanvor
Annette Crosbie – Lini
Juliann Moore – Graendal
Alex Pettyfer – Moridn
Julian Sands – Dashiva
Helen Mirren – Elaida
Judi Dench - Cadsuane

The list doesn’t have the punch of the video, but it’s a start.

Mis-off to the new post again.
Juan Avila
451. Cumadrin
i lol'd at parts of the videos, though some of the castings were very good.

unfortunately, i'm actually pretty good at remembering the cast, and so putting actors' faces to the names makes my mental imagery go wonky, so i try not to do that too much. when i want clearer pictures i look for good fan art. which there is a fair bit of floating around the interwebs.
452. J.Dauro

I love Judi Dench, but I cannot see that as an ageless face.

When I see Cadsuane, she does have a bun, and the hair is grey. But there are no wrinkles on the face.

It will be hard to cast a movie (just as it was hard to do the cover for FoH) since we need a contradiction. The face has to say we cannot tell how old you are, when the character has to say, I have lots of experience.
Rob Munnelly
453. RobMRobM
Thanks, Mis. Very helpful.

I've always had Kate Beckinsale in mind for Min but Carey Mulligan wuold do well as well. Love Julian Sands as Dashiva. Helem Mirren is too old for Elaida (she's supposed to be in her 40s) but her acting chops would be great. Love Julianne Moore as Graendal. Love Michelle Pfieffer as Morgase. Eva Green is probably too pretty for Moggy but I can accept her. I could work with ERW for Eg but she'll need to dye hair black. I'll need to see the video for the rest.

Tricia Irish
454. Tektonica
Sub@423: Where do you find this stuff? I don't recognize half those people. I seem to recognize that music....where is that from?

AdrielM@446: Excellent points! I think you've stated your case for the girls perfectly. I hope they find massive amounts of new recruits, due to continued breeding out in the real world. Good points about the forced isolation too. Thank you.

So many rereads, so little time.....
455. TyRANDosaurus
Sub @423

Any list with Claudia Black on it is just Fine with me....
456. alreadymadwithcasting
I love Claudia Black, but isn't she a bit old to be playing an underaged Saldaean Hunter for the Horn? For Rand, I'm thinking Vincent Kartheiser.
Marcus W
457. toryx
Alisonwonderland @ 447:
When they have to communicate with each other they use the old tongue.

Except they don't. How many times did Birgitte take Nynaeve or Elayne somewhere in Tel'aran'rhiod to spy on the Forsaken and their plotting? That wouldn't have worked if the Forsaken were speaking in the Old Tongue.
458. iansagefire
i'm not sure what role (if any) she'd play, but the asian actress from "curse of the golden flower" and "memoiors of a geisha" always struck me as having the ageless look. she's smooth skined, but obviously older and wiser. i think she'd be a perfect aes sedai if any of the randland folks looked asian, not just the seanchan
459. kalma
Alison @ 447 and toryx @ 457
I remember sometime reading somewhere RJ saying that the Forsaken were able to watch upon mankind over the millenias and see how the language developed (or something to that effect; sorry I don't remember the exact quote or where I read it) but thinking about that brought me another problem.

So I remember Lanfear thinking to herself that she was in a deep sleep most of the time she was trapped in the Bore, which leads me to believe that the others were as well (except maybe Ishamael), so how were the Forsaken able to see the development of civilization? So I'm just going to suspend my disbelief on this matter 'cos I have no idea how to rationalize it. And I really don't want something like that to ruin WOT for me. It's kinda like Stargate (if anyone here has seen it) where all the aliens in all the different planets speak perfect American English
Alice Arneson
460. Wetlandernw
kalma - I don't think RJ ever said the FS were able to watch the development of mankind. Ishamael was bound nearer the surface and occasionally got sufficiently free to see what was going on and fiddle with things a bit, but the others were too "deep" to see anything. He did say that once they got free, they have ways of learning things faster than the average joe, so picking up the modern language wouldn't have taken them as long as you might expect.
461. kalma
Oh well, I was thinking wrong then I guess. In any case I'm not going to get too caught up with the whole language issue. It's very common in all Fantasy and Scifi and something people should be able to overlook, as it really takes nothing away from the overall plot of the franchise

Oh yeah and Leigh, thanks for the post, even if I haven't still read it (still going in part 6, just skimming the comments of this newest one) but still thanks a lot for this whole re-read, it's really great
462. Littlefish3
Hey, I know this isn't CoS-related, or even WoT-related, but does anyone have any idea when Leigh will be posting again?
Tasneem Gould
463. Latecomer
Littlefish - she HAS been posting regularly. We are up to here at the moment.

The WOT index isn't kept updated very well, sadly. You have to look for comments or search for Leigh's posts to get the latest and greatest.
Alice Arneson
464. Wetlandernw
Littlefish & others... Go to the home, scroll down to the list of bloggers, and click on Leigh Butler. You'll see all the blogs she's posted, starting with the most recent. The WoT index doesn't always get updated, but you can still find her latest stuff that way. Or just look in the "Latest Comments" list for someone's comment. If you want to catch up, I'd suggest the first method, because you can find 13 and 14 that way too.
465. Littlefish3
Latecomer and Wetlandernw, thanks so much!
466. yasiru89
Alanna mentions Cadsuane rejected the offer of Rand's bond in Winter's Heart if I recall. Also, I thought Min's 'laughter and tears' claim was a bit too Aes Sedai. The suspicion that Cadsuane had even gotten to his father was what drove Rand over the edge, but it was what Tam said and Lews Therin's opportune input that gave him a hold to lever himself out.

Sammael was actually pretty damn effective here. Perhaps more so than most of the Forsaken we've seen so far.
Also, Moridin more than made up for the chapter lineup, though I've always found Sevanna... amusing.

Rand and Min, well, they probably had the best set up for intimacy given their short 'courtship'...

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