Fri
Jan 15 2010 3:59pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: A Crown of Swords, Part 8

¡Buenos dias, señors y señoritas! ¡Bienvenido a La Rueda del Tiempo Leer uno más!

Or, whatever would be good Spanish for what I usually say. No habla español – claramente.

Today’s entry covers Chapter 12 of A Crown of Swords, and that’s all, because Chapter 12 was STUPID LONG and that is all there is to it.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of yummy tidbits regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

And as that is the long, short, thick and tall of it, we move on without delay to the post!

Chapter 12: A Morning of Victory

What Happens
As Egwene’s party travels out of camp, she observes the frightening effect of the Dark One’s drought, and prays for Elayne and Nynaeve’s success in Ebou Dar.

Their search was as important as anything she did. More. The world would live if she failed, but they had to succeed.

Despite her unease, Myrelle is highly amused at Siuan’s terrible horsemanship. Egwene is startled to see a column of cavalry from the Band off to the west; Myrelle mutters about “Dragonsworn animals”, and Bryne placidly comments that Talmanes seemed concerned about Egwene when last they spoke. Outraged at this, Myrelle accuses him of being near to treason for communicating with Rand’s followers; Egwene thinks of how every rogue turned bandit was using the “Dragonsworn” title as cover, and the Aes Sedai blame Rand for all of it, even though the Band hang anyone they catch pillaging as much as their forces do. Bryne is unaffected by Myrelle’s ire, and merely replies that when he has ten thousand men at his back, he likes to know what they are doing. Startled by the number (and grateful to turn the conversation away from Talmanes’ interest in her), Egwene asks if he’s sure; Bryne replies that the Band has been gathering recruits as they travel, just as Bryne’s forces have, and the Band has a reputation for never losing, after Cairhien, though some think their luck won’t apply without Mat Cauthon there. Myrelle continues to dress him down, and both Egwene and Bryne ignore her. Egwene thinks of how Bryne had looked at her when he mentioned Mat, and realizes he knows more of the situation there than the Aes Sedai do. She wonders why Bryne had sworn as he did, committing himself to fight Tar Valon when the sisters would gladly have accepted a lesser oath as an excuse not to fight. She admits to herself that she is comforted by his presence, though.

Having him oppose her, she realized suddenly, might be as bad as having the Hall against her, and never mind the army. The one approving comment Siuan had ever had of him was that he was formidable, even if she did try to change her remark immediately to mean something else. Any man Siuan Sanche thought formidable was one to be mindful of.

She thinks that Siuan must either hate Bryne with a passion, or be in love with him, and she cannot imagine Siuan in love. She also marvels at the notion of Mat with a soldier’s reputation; she’d thought he only commanded because of Rand, but reminds herself of the danger of assumptions. Myrelle is still going on, until Egwene finally tells her to be quiet, and toys with the idea of asking a sister at the camp for Healing for her headache. Myrelle is humiliated, but obeys, and Egwene adds to Bryne that all the same, he should not meet with Talmanes again; Bryne acquiesces immediately. At length they come to a caravan of merchant wagons, being inspected by Bryne’s men. Egwene doesn’t understand why he wanted her to see this. Bryne glances at Myrelle and hesitates, but Egwene tells him Myrelle has her “complete trust”; Myrelle looks stricken. Bryne finally says that the merchants have brought a rumor that Rand al’Thor has gone to the Tower to swear fealty to Elaida. Myrelle and Siuan both go dead white at the possibility, but Egwene bursts out laughing, startling all of them. She chuckles that she knows for a fact this isn’t true, as of last night. Siuan and Myrelle both sigh aloud with relief, and Egwene almost laughs again at their expressions. Bryne, however, points out that whether the rumor is true or not won’t stop it from spreading like wildfire all over camp, which sobers Egwene in a hurry. She says she will have six Aes Sedai announce the truth to the soldiers tomorrow, volunteering the Salidar Six; Myrelle grimaces, divining from this that they would have to talk to the Wise Ones again, but looks resigned. Bryne supposes this will do, as long as the sisters do not hedge “by even a hair”.

“You do very well, it appears, Mother. I wish you continued success. Set your time for this afternoon, and I will come. We should confer regularly. I will come whenever you send for me. We should begin making firm plans how to put you on the Amyrlin Seat once we reach Tar Valon.”

His tone was guarded—very likely he still was not entirely sure what was going on, or how far he could trust Myrelle—and it took her a moment to realize what he had done. It made her breath catch. Maybe she was just becoming too used to the way Aes Sedai shaded words, but . . . Bryne had just said the army was hers. She was sure of it. Not the Hall’s, and not Sheriam’s; hers.

She merely thanks him, counseling herself to caution until she can be sure, and then dismisses him to his duties, overriding his concerns about leaving them alone. When he is gone, she asks Siuan to lead the way, which she does. Myrelle glances anxiously at Egwene, expecting her to bring up the ferrets, but she merely rides along in silence, observing Myrelle getting more and more nervous. Finally Myrelle suggests riding a different way to where a pretty waterfall is, but Egwene replies that she thinks Siuan’s direction will provide much more interesting sights, doesn’t she? Myrelle mutters that she knows everything, doesn’t she, and with sudden realization accuses Siuan of being “her creature” all along. She doesn’t understand; they were so circumspect.

“If you want to keep something hidden,” Siuan said contemptuously over her shoulder, “don’t try to buy coin peppers this far south.”

What in the world were coin peppers? And what were they talking about? Myrelle shuddered.

Myrelle begs Egwene to understand; it wasn’t just because Moiraine was her friend, it was because she “hates letting them die”. Siuan interrupts, to Egwene’s exasperation, to say maybe Myrelle should lead the rest of the way and earn some grace. Myrelle does so, and an utterly confused Egwene tries to decide if she wants to strangle Myrelle or Siuan more. Finally they come to a small campsite, where five warhorses are on a picket line. Nisao Dachen waits for them with her Warder Sarin Hoigan, along with two of Myrelle’s three Warders (Croi Makin and Nuhel Dromand). Egwene then spies Nicola and Areina peeking around one of the tents, and feels uneasy. Myrelle goes to Nisao, and Egwene asks Siuan in a whisper why she had interrupted Myrelle. Siuan replies that she thought she knew what was going on and where, but wasn’t sure; she’d only heard about the coin peppers this morning. Egwene still doesn’t see what that has to do with anything, and Siuan explains they are popular in Shienar, and Malkier. Then Egwene sees another man come out of a tent.

He was head and shoulders and more taller than her, taller than any of the other Warders. His long dark hair, held by a braided leather cord around his temples, was more streaked with gray than when Egwene had seen him last, but there was nothing at all soft in Lan Mandragoran. Pieces of the puzzle suddenly clicked into place, yet it still would not come apart for her.

Myrelle murmurs to him; he flinches, then goes off by himself, taking up a sword stance that he holds motionless. Nisao and Myrelle ply Egwene with offers of punch, but Egwene is only interested in an explanation, and says so. Myrelle says pleadingly that Moiraine chose her because two of her Warders belonged first to other sisters who died; Nisao puts in that she was only involved because of her interest in “diseases of the mind”, which this surely is, accusing Myrelle of dragging her into it.

Smoothing her skirts, Myrelle directed a dark look at the Yellow that was returned with interest. “Mother, when a Warder’s Aes Sedai dies, it is as though he swallows her death and is consumed by it from the inside. He—”

“I know that, Myrelle,” Egwene broke in sharply. Siuan and Leane had told her a good bit, though neither knew she had asked because she wanted to know what to expect with Gawyn. A poor bargain, Myrelle had called it, and perhaps it was.

Areina and Nicola are seated on the ground now, watching Lan avidly as he suddenly goes into a flurry of stances, flowing from one to the next with deadly grace. Egwene comments acidly that she sees they are working him hard, and thinks that Nynaeve might well strangle Myrelle when she learns that Myrelle bonded Lan. But then Myrelle protests that passing a bond “isn’t that bad”, no worse than deciding who should have your husband if you die, and Egwene rounds on her in shock. Siuan replies dryly that “we aren’t all Ebou Dari, Myrelle”, and a Warder isn’t a husband… usually; Egwene thinks of the rumors that Myrelle had married all three of her Warders, which defies law even in Ebou Dar. Nisao points out that there is no law against passing a bond.

“That’s not the point, is it?” [Siuan] demanded. “Even if it hasn’t been done in—what? four hundred years or more?—even if customs have changed, you might have escaped with a few stares and a little censure if all you and Moiraine had done was pass his bond between you. But he wasn’t asked, was he? He was given no choice. You might as well have bonded him against his will. In fact, you bloody well did!”

Egwene knows she should be as disgusted as Siuan, but can’t help wondering if Nynaeve would have let Lan walk away unbonded if he hadn’t already been Moiraine’s Warder, or if she would do the same with Gawyn, were he to change his mind about accepting. Nisao spits at Myrelle that she must have been mad to listen to her. Myrelle begs Egwene to believe that she only did it to save him, and will pass his bond to Nynaeve as soon as she gets the chance. Siuan mutters that two wrongs don’t make a right, but Egwene only asks how he is progressing; Lan is still going through sword forms at lightning speed. Myrelle replies that she’s only had him two weeks, and it could take months. Egwene murmurs that perhaps it’s time to try something else, and walks up to him. She manages not to flinch when Lan whirls his sword to within inches of her head before stopping; he stares at her a moment, then says he hears she’s Amyrlin now, and thinks they have a lot in common. Egwene, realizing how dangerous he is, resists the temptation to embrace saidar and replies that Nynaeve is Aes Sedai too, now, and in need of a Warder. Lan laughs harshly and says he hopes she finds a legendary hero who can handle her temper.

The laugh convinced her, icy hard as it was. “Nynaeve is in Ebou Dar, Lan. You know what a dangerous city that is. She is searching for something we need desperately. If the Black Ajah learns of it, they’ll kill her to get it. If the Forsaken find out . . . ” She had thought his face bleak before, but the pain that tightened his eyes at Nynaeve’s danger confirmed her plan. Nynaeve, not Myrelle, had the right. “I am sending you to her, to act as her Warder.”

Lan immediately calls for Areina to saddle his horse; he apologizes to Egwene for ever taking her or Nynaeve out of the Two Rivers, and heads into the tent. Myrelle runs up and protests that Nynaeve can’t handle him the way he is, and Egwene answers that Nynaeve can do the one thing Myrelle can’t: give him something so important to do that he has to stay alive to do it. And that thing is protecting Nynaeve, the woman he loves. Myrelle is amazed; Nisao scoffs that girls have been chasing him since he was a youth, and none ever caught him. She glances at Myrelle, who blushes slightly, and Egwene remembers that some sisters believe part of the cure for a Warder’s broken bond involves distracting him with sex. She hopes Nynaeve never finds out. She spies Areina and Nicola again, and tells Myrelle and Nisao that regardless of what those two have on them, the extra lessons for Nicola are to stop. Myrelle and Nisao (and Siuan) are astounded by this display of perspicuity, and Myrelle whispers that Egwene really does know everything. Nisao says at least now they can deal with the pair as they deserve; Nicola, observing the four Aes Sedai stares now on her, tries to melt into the tree she’s pressed against. Egwene observes that Nicola and Areina are not the only ones needing to face justice, and leaves Myrelle and Nisao to stew over that with Siuan as she goes to Lan and tells him she can have him in Ebou Dar sooner than the month it would take on horseback. She weaves a gateway to Skim to the place where Nynaeve and Elayne had Traveled from, some five or six days from Ebou Dar. Lan follows her onto the Skimming platform, and doesn’t say a word as she explains Nynaeve’s situation. Finally she asks if he’s been listening.

“Tarasin Palace,” he said in flat voice, without shifting his gaze. “Guest of Queen Tylin. Might deny she’s in danger. Stubborn, as if I didn’t know already.” He looked at her then, and she almost wished he had not. She was full of saidar, full of the warmth and the joy and the power, the sheer life, but something stark and primal raged in those cold blue eyes, a denial of life. His eyes were terrifying; that was all there was to it. “I will tell her everything she needs to know. You see, I listen.”

Egwene notices what might be a bite mark on his neck, and considers cautioning him not to mention certain of Myrelle’s rehabilitation methods, but then decides that not even a man would be so scatterbrained as to actually tell Nynaeve about that. They arrive at the other end, and Egwene begins to tell him again what to expect, but Lan interrupts to tell her she’s come a long way since Emond’s Field, and not to let go of Myrelle and Nisao now that she has a hold on them.

“By your command, Mother. The watch is not done.”

She watches him gallop off, amazed that he had successfully deduced her situation even in the midst of sword forms, and thinks Nynaeve had better be careful of underestimating him. She heads back to the camp, and arrives to find Siuan losing ground rapidly against Myrelle and Nisao; Siuan is immensely relieved to see her, and explains that she was speculating on possible penalties the Hall will dream up for the two. She thinks that, since they are so fond of the notion, a fitting penance might be for their Warders’ bonds to be passed to someone else.

Myrelle squeezed her eyes shut, and Nisao turned to look at the Warders. Her expression never changed, calm if a touch flushed, but Sarin stumbled to his feet and took three quick steps toward her before she raised a hand to stop him.

Egwene dislikes this, but accepts it as part of the game, and sends Siuan to put the fear of the Light into Nicola and Areina. Siuan answers that she thinks she can manage that, and stalks over and grabs Nicola and Areina each by an ear; whatever she says to them makes the blood drain right out of their faces, and they both almost prostrate themselves to Egwene before taking off at top speed. Egwene turns back to Myrelle and Nisao, and tells them that without Egwene’s protection they will be flayed alive, figuratively, by the Hall, not to mention their own Ajahs, but Egwene sees no reason to protect them unless they have an obligation to her as well; they must swear fealty. All three of the other women gape in disbelief; Myrelle begins to splutter that no Amyrlin has ever required such a thing, but Nisao cuts her off contemptuously, saying this is all Myrelle’s fault.

Peering at Egwene from beneath lowered brows, she muttered, “You are a dangerous young woman, Mother. A very dangerous woman. You may break the Tower more than it already is, before you’re done. If I was sure of that, if I had the courage to do my duty and face whatever comes—” Yet she knelt smoothly, pressing her lips to the Great Serpent ring on Egwene’s finger. “Beneath the Light and by my hope of rebirth and salvation . . . ”

Siuan watches slackjawed as Nisao and then, reluctantly, Myrelle swear fealty to Egwene. Egwene tells them her first order is that they tell no one of Siuan’s real position with her, and that they are to obey any order from Siuan as if it came from Egwene. Siuan is even more flabbergasted, but Myrelle and Nisao have resigned themselves and agree without a quibble. On the way back, Egwene explains to Siuan about Nicola and Areina’s earlier blackmail attempt on her, and Siuan grimly says she thinks “our two adventurous lasses” are about to meet with accidents. Egwene instantly and sharply forbids this; Siuan argues, but Egwene replies that she will not start down that slippery slope. She cheers Siuan by telling her about Faolain and Theodrin, and her plans for them. When they reach camp, Siuan goes off to summon Sheriam and the others of the Six to meet in Egwene’s study at noon with energy, but Egwene goes back to her tent with a throbbing head. She finds two proposals from Lelaine and Romanda which only make her headache worse. Romanda wants to summon all sisters one by one, and any who refused were to be imprisoned as suspected Black Ajah, while Lelaine wants to pass an edict forbidding any mention of the Black Ajah as “fomenting discord”. Egwene groans.

Were they blind? Fomenting discord? Lelaine would have every sister convinced not just that there was a Black Ajah, but that Egwene was part of it. The stampede of Aes Sedai back to Tar Valon and Elaida could not be far behind. Romanda just meant to set off a mutiny. There were six of those hidden in the secret histories. Half a dozen in more than three thousand years might not be very many, but each had resulted in an Amyrlin resigning and the entire Hall as well. Lelaine knew that, and Romanda.

Egwene knows they are just afraid, the fear of women unused to being afraid of anything, but this does not make things better. She is interrupted by Halima, bringing another proposal from Delana which Egwene knows is the one about declaring Elaida a Darkfriend. She tells Halima that she could wish Halima had gone home when Cabriana Mercandes died, but Halima answers she could hardly do that after what Cabriana had told her about Elaida, and is only grateful Cabriana mentioned Salidar so Halima knew where to come to help them. She studies Egwene, and observes that her head is hurting again.

Moving around behind the chair, she began kneading Egwene’s scalp. Halima’s fingers possessed a skill that melted pain away. “You could hardly ask another sister for Healing as often as you have these aches. It’s just tightness, anyway. I can feel it.”

“I suppose I couldn’t,” Egwene murmured. She rather liked the woman, whatever anyone said, and not just for her talent in smoothing away headaches. Halima was earthy and open, a country woman however much time she had spent gaining a skim of city sophistication, balancing respect for the Amyrlin with a sort of neighborliness in a way Egwene found refreshing. Startling, sometimes, but enlivening.

Egwene lets her thoughts drift, and thinks that Halima isn’t so bad, just misunderstood, and it wasn’t her fault her beauty made everyone assume she was a “brainless flipskirt”. Egwene had known she was intelligent since their first meeting, the day after Logain escaped and the headaches had begun. Egwene tries to think about all the problems in front of her, but Halima instructs her to relax.

“You’re stiff as a stake; you should be supple enough to bend backwards and put your head between your ankles. Mind and body. One can’t be limber without the other. Just put yourself in my hands.”

Egwene, drifting off to sleep, murmurs that that would be nice.

Commentary
Jesus AITCH with this chapter.

It’s the weirdest thing with these recaps, I swear. Some chapters I can just breeze through and summarize with hardly any difficulty at all. (Well, mostly. Usually.) Others, though, are like pulling teeth with rusty pliers to try and summarize. They just – won’t – compress! Pliers, hell – more apt to say it’s like pulling teeth with rusty tweezers.

Or unrusty tweezers, even. The rust really has nothing to do with it – whatever, the POINT is, I end up just plodding along and sticking everything in there and feeling like I’m committing a crime against the art of abridgement, if such a thing even exists, which it probably doesn’t.

Guess which one of those this chapter was. Argh.

This is in large part due, without doubt, to the marked change in pace ACOS has in contrast with LOC. As I’ve mentioned, LOC bulldozed through a good 100 days plus of Shit Happening, whereas ACOS gets through less than a tenth of that chronologically. I think that Jordan’s intent here was to get a little more intimate with the events covered in this novel; to take a step back from the frenetic speed of LOC (insofar as a 700-page, sixth-in-a-series novel can be said to be “frenetic”, anyway) and examine things a little more in detail, spend a little more time with the characters.

Which, incidentally, pissed off a lot of readers who just wanted things wrapped up already. Hah, silly readers. Didn’t you know we were only halfway through?

I was not one of these pissed-off readers, for what it’s worth. As a reader, I am (or was) evidently in support of this notion, at least initially; as I’ve stated, ACOS is overall one of my favorite novels in the series, if not the favorite.

As a recapper, though, I begin to suspect I have a lot of headaches in my future.

Anyway. So yeah, this chapter was hella long, but as it wraps up (or ends, anyway) Egwene’s entire plotline in the novel, I guess that was somewhat unavoidable. Also, some fairly awesome – and equally fairly disturbing – things happen in it, so okay, I guess. I’m just so tired now I hardly know what to say about any of it. We’ll just bang on points in sequence.

Bryne: I don’t recall that I was quite so enamored of him as a character on previous go-rounds (I know I wasn’t nearly so much of a Siuan fan before, either), but this re-read continually makes me heart him fervently. Egwene is exactly right in how comforting his presence is, and the unequivocal throwing of his support to Egwene in this chapter cements his awesomeness lock, stock, and barrel as far as I am concerned.

There’s something incredibly noble, in my opinion, about the way he tossed Egwene a lifeline like that, knowing perfectly well (as he must) that she is the clear underdog in this horse race. Undoubtedly Siuan’s loyalty to Egwene has a lot to do with that, of course, but I think it’s clear he respects Egwene on her own merits, as well. Additionally, I don’t know if this is ever explicitly stated anywhere, but I think he feels it is the only honorable course of action open to him in any case. He has vowed to bring down Elaida and win the Tower back for the rebels; to honor that vow, choosing between the Hall, who only kinda sorta wishy-washily wants that to even happen, and the girl Amyrlin, whose future and possibly her very life hangs upon that goal being achieved, well. Viewed that way, it’s kind of a no-brainer, isn’t it? In a suicidal sort of way, natch.

In conclusion, yay Bryne awesome.

As for Siuan, I continue to be amazed at how much more interesting a character she became once she was deposed, and onward as she deals with reestablishing her place and identity in the world. I would be willing to contend that she is one of the more complex and fully-realized characters in all of WOT, and in my opinion she’s got some pretty good competition there.

Lan: I remember being so excited when he finally reappeared after being so long absent. I was like, Lan! Buddy! Hell yeah! And then you find out he’s broken and suffering (if still utterly badass at the same time), and that kind of sucked.

I was even at first reading rather torn about Egwene’s decision to send him “as is” to Nynaeve. On the one hand, I was dying to see Lan and Nynaeve reunite, but on the other, I sensed even then that not fixing the bonding situation beforehand was going to result in this whole bizarro triangly-ish thing being dragged out FOREVER. And boy, was I right. Nynaeve had better get her ass back to the Tower before Myrelle bites it in Armageddon, is all I’m saying.

On the whole “passing the bond” thing in general: Damn, I don’t even know if I have the energy to get into this. This chapter presented a pretty fair summation, actually, of why I didn’t find Moiraine’s decision to pass Lan’s bond to Myrelle without consulting him first nearly as heinous as I did Alanna’s ambush-bonding of Rand, even though on a base level the two actions are the same.

But they aren’t, really; Moiraine’s (and Myrelle’s) act, while still a violation, was at least with the intent to save a life, while Alanna’s was nothing more than a blatant attempt at coercion. On the other hand, Alanna at least has the defense of acting on impulse, while Moiraine’s decision was definitely premeditated, so… I dunno. I still feel like Moiraine has the higher moral ground here, if only relatively speaking.

Still, the whole thing is more than moderately disgusting, ethically, and though I think Egwene has a point in that sometimes you have to hold your nose in order to do what has to be done, her pursuant thoughts about whether Nynaeve or herself would have been able to resist coercing Lan or Gawyn, respectively, had the situation arisen, show what a dangerously slippery slope she stands on, here. Power corrupts, and alla that.

I also cannot help doing my standard gender-flip mental exercise here, and think of how this might constitute commentary on, say, enforced marriage practices back in the day, and how much of sending (for example) a thirteen-year-old merchant’s daughter to be pawed at by a geriatric duke or something was probably justified as “for the greater good” by the power-brokers (i.e., parents, which is to say, fathers) involved. Fun.

The strongest mitigating factor, actually, at least as far as I’m concerned, is Nisao’s and Myrelle’s Warders’ reaction/behavior when Siuan suggests they be made to pass their bonds to someone else. Artificially (or magically, whatever) generated or not, the devotion of the Warders in general to their Aes Sedai speaks strongly to the benefits of binding outweighing the moral shadiness of it all, Egwene’s thoughts about Warders not knowing what they were agreeing to notwithstanding.

I don’t know, the moment was touching, is all I’m saying. At the end of the day, if you twist hard enough you can make a case for any kind of emotional liaison being ethically unsupportable, but that way lies madness, clearly. And you’ll notice that people are still getting married, too. I’m just saying.

On swearing fealty: Eh. I thought I was going to have a problem with it, and maybe I should, but considering the way the rebel Aes Sedai have jerked Egwene around and set her up as their fall guy, I’m really having a hard time generating any outrage, here. Myrelle, at least, got exactly what she deserved, as will the other Salidar Six. If I’m being callous here I’m sure someone will tell me, but my thinking is, it’s your own damn fault if your puppet emperor suddenly notices she has no clothes, and decides that she’s going take yours instead.

Halima: YIPE YIPE YIPE

Which was pretty much my reaction to the end of this chapter, then and now. And… really, that’s about all I have to say about the cliffhanger “Yikes” that leaves us hanging on Egwene’s situation until we rejoin her in TPOD.


Aaaaaand I am so, so stopping now. I know I didn’t cover everything in this monster of a chapter, but enough is as good as a feast, and I’m just done. I trust y’all will remedy anything I missed in the comments. Have a lovely weekend, and I’ll see you Monday!

271 comments
Ron Garrison
1. Man-0-Manetheran
Yeah, Lan!

The big issue for me in this chapter is the BOND.
Myrelle runs up and protests that Nynaeve can’t handle him the way he is, and Egwene answers that Nynaeve can do the one thing Myrelle can’t: give him something so important to do that he has to stay alive to do it. And that thing is protecting Nynaeve, the woman he loves.

I think it has been established by now that Bonds can be passed, AND, the people involved DO NOT have to be in the immediate proximity. Was Myrelle sitting on the wagon? No. I believe there are other references throughout the books about passing bonds - not just Lan's but Rand's.

SO... Why did RJ not pass the bond yet from Myrelle to Nynaeve? What is the plot requirement that has kept this from happening? Moiraine's bonding of Lan in New Spring is one of the most moving moments in that and many other books. I've asked it before, and I ask again: Will Moiraine take Lan's bond back when she is rescued?
Marcus W
2. toryx
Their search was as important as anything she did. More. The world would live if she failed, but they had to succeed.

Hindsight being what it is, I now believe that's totally false. Every time the weather gets fixed, the DO just does something else to screw everyone over. I'm pretty sure I thought that at the time too but it's been so many years and rereads I can't remember.

I find the passing of the bond thing to be mildly repugnant but since it saved Lan's life I can deal with it. I know that's an arbitrary way of viewing an issue like that, but there you are.

The fealty thing didn't bother me at all the first few times I read about it. Now it does, if only because it's the sort of thing Elaida would have done. Oh well.

And man, it killed me when I found out that Halima was messing with Egwene's mind. Nasty to the max.
Roger Powell
3. forkroot
Moiraine initially passed the bond (set it up to pass on her "death") to Myrelle with the understanding that Myrelle would pass it to Nynaeve when Nyn gained the shawl.

There was a short window of time in Salidar when Myrelle could have done so assuming she was fully in agreement with Egwene's raising of Nynaeve without the latter going back through the ter'angreal (doing the weaves) and swearing on the oath rod.

Given that Nyn hadn't even conquered her block yet, it is understandable why Myrelle might have hesitated.
John Mann
5. jcmnyu
The oath of fealty she demands from Myrelle and Niasso are exactly the same, word for word, as the oath Rand gets from the Aes Sedai who swear for him except Rand's has an end condition Egwene's doesn't have. Where exactly is Egwene finding a difference that she can condemn Rand for doing what she did herself? For a smart and perceptive young woman, this is a blind spot the size of the hole where Shadar Logoth used to be.
Thomas Keith
6. insectoid
Great post as always Leigh!

Halima: YIPE, indeed! ::shudder::

Lan: Still awesome.

Bryne & Siuan: Still awesome.

Nicola & Areina: Still awe--no wait. Annoying. Still annoying. ;)

More later maybe.

Bzzz™.
Maiane Bakroeva
7. Isilel
More idiocy from Myrelle, Bryne is awesome, Siuan really shines with her cleverness/sneakiness, Egwene is actually doing very well as ruler-in-training, Lan is a badass mofo.
So, why didn't Egwene send off Myrelle with Lan for a couple of days, to transfer the dratted bond? Oh, yes, because she too decided to drag things out by dropping him more than a week out of Ebu Dar. Sigh.

She thinks that, since they are so fond of the notion, a fitting penance might be for their Warders’ bonds to be passed to someone else..

Eh, if bonding somebody against their will is a crime, how can this be a plausible penance? Forcing them to release the Warders, OK, but transferring warders to somebody else without their consent?! And why should anybody take them? And what if they are legally married to one of them? Makes no sense.

Re: Siuan, she may have become more interesting, but she is a very inconsistent character and made even more so by NS backstory. She is too often what the plot needs her to be, character integrity be damned.

Speaking of Nicola and Areina, I hope that they'll make good despite their inospicious beginnings.
JohnY62
8. JohnY62
One thing to keep in mind about Moiraine's passing Lan's bond, is that if she kept it, Lan would know she was alive and not dead. Since she knew ahead of time what would happen, that she would not really die and that unless people DID think she was dead for a while, bad things would happen, this does impact what she has to do about Lan.
John Massey
9. subwoofer
Weeeeeeeeeeee!

No yipin'. It's all good:)

Woof™.
JohnY62
10. Gentleman Farmer
On my initial read, I was quite supportive of Egwene getting the oath of fealty from all concerned. On the re-read however, I find it increasingly troubling.

In particular, as highlighted in this abridgement, Egwene's thoughts and actions proceed as follows:

1. She is given a first hand understanding of the high price paid by warders for the bond;

2. She muses on and considers the use of involuntary bonding (i.e. compulsion) to create warders for purely personal ends, not a greater good or greater need; and

3. She compels (not one power but still) Aes Sedai
to swear fealty to her.

Add to this her reversal on the oath rod which would cause the oath of fealty to be binding, and you reach a pretty disturbing situation. Is she that far from the fourth oath on the oath rod to swear to her? Is she that far from the various darkfriends and their uses of compulsion?

I think this book is where I really started to have problems with Egwene, and felt most of my sympathy for her drain away, viewing her instead as calculating and more than a little power hungry.
Kerwin Miller
11. tamyrlink
I dont think lans situation and rands situation are the same. exactly the same i should say.

yes both immoral but lans situation is different mainly because he was a warder before, and nothing changed for him except who he was bonded to. i mean yea she should/could have asked him first but if you pare it down nothing changed except his aes sedai.

mo was basically like when/if i die youre going to myrelle cuz i dont want you to die trying to avenge me or trying to kill yourself (and i secretly plan for you to end up with braidtugger). and she told him (after she did it) but she still told him. he wasnt surprised by it when she died.

alanna just basically raped rand.
Bonnie Andrews
12. misfortuona
Holly Hanna Leigh. That was tough to read all in one go, let alone write. Thank you again and good job.

Ten people commented while I read this. Wow. Anyway contrary to my usual tact, I'm going to think a bit before making any statements, so have fun everyone.

Mis-considering
Matthew Smith
13. blocksmith
The scenes with Halima make my skin crawl...I equate to those horrible stories that start "...he was such a great neighbor, quiet, kept his yard clean...who knew he was a serial killer?" Even reading that Halimagar had her/his hands on Egwene made me want to take shower.

Bryne demonstrates those same qualities that made him a great captain general of Andor and excellent choice to lead the SAS army...five stars.

Lan...nuff said.

I definitely struggle with Nicola and Areina. Besides Nicola's one (or two) foretellings, have they truly contributed anything to the story? Even here, they are just added stressors to Eg...as if she needed more. Maybe as Isilel indicates above (in my best Ricky Ricardo) they have some redeeming to do.
Roberto Burtoni
14. MadCardigan
I was struck by how casually Egwene et al take Myrelle and Lan having sex.

Really? Lan is devoted to Nynaeve, considered dead from within emotionally, and he just cant wait to get in bed with Myrelle?

Forget the bond passage = rape. That sounds like actual rape, and if the bond is used to compell him to do so...doubly rape.

Disgusting.
James Jones
15. jamesedjones
As most of you know, I have a twisted sense of humor, and see the funny in things that would upset a lot of folks. That said, the Halima scenes always make me chuckle a bit.

Sure, she's a psychopath who is molesting one of the main characters. But that same character is being beaten over the head with her maid's reaction, the Aes Sedai's reaction, and the crazy ideas of Halima's BFF. Can we really label her as "smart" anymore?

This is reminiscent of the reasons I cracked up a Mat, pre TGS.
Rob Munnelly
16. RobMRobM
Re Leigh's comment that ACOS is one of her favorite and perhaps her favorite, all I can say is "ugh." Lots of filler surrounding a handful of awesome chapters (this one; Swovan Night; Mashiara; Blades; and the Mat "Daughter of the Sands" beat down). Overall, firmly in back half.

This is one of my favorite in this book as you see Eg really seem to turn awesome. Lots of subtle humor here, such as when Lan's blade stops an inch from her head and Eg says that someone gasped - and she was glad it wasn't her. And Lan's lines re Nyn ("stubborn, like I did not know that already"). And the Brynne, Siuan, Myrelle, Eg interactions - priceless.
Bonnie Andrews
17. misfortuona
Okay so I didn't consider very long, what can I say I think fast,often wrong, but fast.

There was so much awesome in this chapter. Egwene, Bryne, Suian, and Yeah Lan, and then there is the whole Halima thing at the end. The idea of her/him, whatever, touching Egwene still gives me shivers even after at least five reads.

For me as for many people, the big thing in this chapter is the bond. I personally think Mo did what she had to do. She knew she was going to die/pass through the looking glass, and that if she didn’t do something Lan would die. That would have been a bad thing for everyone. I think she also might have considered having Myrelle return the bond to her if she lived through the Finn thing. Can you see Nyneave agreeing to that?
Plus as Leigh said, Nyn wasn’t really up to the job yet. It wasn’t a pretty thing, but neither is cutting off someone’s leg, but sometimes you have to do it to save a life.
MadCarigan - Yep that part's just disgusting. Kinda sets up an interesting comparison to shenanigans later on in this book though doesn't it?

And Yeah, Egwene could totally have done without Myrelle for a few days, only then the poor man would have been really trapped between the woman who held his bond and the one who held his heart, and I don’t know that even with the oath of allegiance thing I’d have been willing to trust Myrelle to do what she was told. Sneaky AS deciding it would be best for Lan, or something.

Of course we can’t bring up this ‘bond crime’ without considering the other. Allanna’s bonding Rand is horrible, useful when he gets kidnapped, and as a plot devise, but horrible. What I can’t understand is why Rand hasn’t just forced her to give up the bond. He’s the bloody DR for light’s sake. She’s never been able to control him, and he doesn’t seem to have a problem with controlling her.
Yes maybe this is easier said than done, but really after everything that happens between here and TGS I don’t get why he hasn’t given her the heave-ho.

Finally as for Egwene’s power grab here. It smells of compulsion to me. This and Egwene’s feelings on the oath rod start going sideways about now, and I blame Halima for both.

That’s all for now, I look forward to the many interesting debates this chapter stirs up.

Mis-anticipating
John Pigott
18. AbEnd
I cannot help but be a little disturbed at the vehemence with which fans so often celebrate the ultimate result of the confrontation at the campsite – which is, of course, a revision of the infamous “kneel, or you will be knelt” scene in which, in this incidence, two Aes Sedai are induced to swear fealty to Egwene.

Perhaps surprisingly to many familiar with my views, it is not the possible misogynistic overtones of the act which I find most upsetting – at least not as it applies to the author. I can’t pretend I know Jordan’s mind on this, of course, but I personally never got the sense that a “woman beating down women” inference was where he was going with this; in my view, it was about a shift in the balance of power, and it just so happened that the power players on the side it shifted away from were Aes Sedai – ergo, female – merely by default. This is perhaps a case of wishful whitewashing on my part, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Whatever Jordan’s intent, however, it does not excuse a large portion of the fan response, from whom I (and many others) most certainly did perceive a rather nasty vibe of “Yay, those uppity bitches got what’s coming to them!”. I found this not just disturbing but genuinely upsetting, as it was an indication to me of just how much our progress in gender equality is, in many ways, still only skin deep. Let's just say, I got the distinct sense that deny it though they might (and there were those who didn’t even bother to deny it), on some visceral and perhaps unconscious level some fans rejoiced in seeing powerful female characters get brought down a peg or two merely because they were female, and that deeply saddens me.

I fully expect, of course, to receive n amount of vehement refutations of this in the comments; in response, I can only say that even if every “Whoo, bitches got smacked down!” response out there had motivations as pure as the driven snow, that’s not what I and others perceived, and that is the key point here. Certainly the oft-repeated use of “bitches” did not help. If you truly do not intend to imply misogynistic overtones, you may want to consider how much your choice of words may degrade the credibility of your claim.

And keep in mind, I certainly don’t claim that everyone who liked ACOS Ch. 12 is sexist, because, I remind you, I liked Ch. 12, too. That being said, I do invite everyone to give some examination as to the reasons why you felt the way you did about this scene. (Again, an interesting thought exercise is to imagine the scene with all, or some of, the genders swapped, and see how (or if) it changes your reaction.)
James Jones
19. jamesedjones
17 misfortuona
Finally as for Egwene’s power grab here. It smells of compulsion to me. This and Egwene’s feelings on the oath rod start going sideways about now, and I blame Halima for both.
Nah. This is perfectly in character for her. Remember the lying medicine nightmare she gave Nyneave to distract her "friend" from the fact that she was lying. She's a total hypocrite.

She's not the only one. But she is the only one where it is not used as a device for humor (like Nyneave).
JohnY62
20. J.Dauro
Isilel @7

I do not think Siuan was seriously proposing that their penance be passing the bond. I believe she was more feeding them a very distastful idea in anticipation of actually proposing a milder punishment. If that makes sense.

JohnY62 @8
The bond was broken when Moraine went through the door. The bond did not truly pass until Lan thinks she is dead. So even if she had not setup the pass to Myrelle, Lan would not know she was alive.

MadCardigan @14
You can't have it both ways. In paragraph 2 you acuse Lan of wanting to have sex with Myrelle, and in paragraph 3 you accuse Myrelle of raping him. If she raped him, he has no culpability. If he wants to be with her, she did not rape him.

Although it may not be attractive to some, I can understand that the AS feel that one method of trying to keep a warder who has lost his AS from killing himself is to re-kindle his interest in life. And for most men, sex is one thing that will do that.



So we see earlier Moraine made a decision for Lan. She decided that she did not want him to kill himself, and passed his bond to Myrelle to try to save his life, and to hopefully get him to Nyneave in the end.

Later we see Nyneave make a decision for Lan. She decides that she does not want him to kill himself, lies to him (in an AS way) and leaves him to try to pick up an army on his way to try to kill himself. Big difference?

I am not sure I like either, although I can understand both. And wouldn't Nyneave be outraged at the comparison?
Captain Hammer
21. Randalator
JohnY62 @8

One thing to keep in mind about Moiraine's passing Lan's bond, is that if she kept it, Lan would know she was alive and not dead. Since she knew ahead of time what would happen, that she would not really die and that unless people DID think she was dead for a while, bad things would happen, this does impact what she has to do about Lan.

Um, the bond was severed when the doorway melted so there is nothing to feel for Lan. And it was not Moiraine letting go of the bond voluntarily. She had altered it beforehand so that it would transfer to Myrelle as soon as it was destroyed.

Also she did NOT know what would happen. The Rhuidean rings didn't show her anything at all after Lanfear's BSOD episode. She had only the faintest glimmer of hope that this wouldn't be her end because of one of Min's viewings that concerned her hadn't yet come to pass.

Also the bond passing was something she planned long before she knew about her "death".


MadCardigan @14

I was struck by how casually Egwene et al take Myrelle and Lan having sex.

Really? Lan is devoted to Nynaeve, considered dead from within emotionally, and he just cant wait to get in bed with Myrelle?


Lan is nothing more than a suicidal/homicidal double whopper at the time. That's not exactely the most rational or emotionally stable state of mind to be in. There is a certain just-letting-it-happen-because-everything-is-meaningless-and-I'm-dead-anyway factor at work here.

Forget the bond passage = rape. That sounds like actual rape, and if the bond is used to compell him to do so...doubly rape.

Disgusting.


I don't think that there was much need for compulsion. Lan just didn't care about anything at all because of the warder rage.



Also, I don't consider this specific case of bond passage to be rape. Lan was on the brink of asking for release from his bond in Tear because he wanted to be with Nynaeve. Only her insistence that he stay with Moiraine held him back.

So by arranging for his bond to be passed to Nynaeve in case of her death was in accordance with what Lan wished for. Myrelle is just a necessity because Nynaeve couldn't be expected to be able to deal with a suicidal warder or to be Aes Sedai at all at that point.

So Moiraine deserves a scolding (maybe even a spanking *ducks*) for badly screwing with him by not telling him about her ultimate plan. But, as far as I'm concerned, the whole situation is as much rape as keeping someone from killing himself is.

Just bear in mind that that is not the case for non-consensual bond passage in general...
Luke M
22. lmelior
@jcmnyu #5
Where exactly is Egwene finding a difference that she can condemn Rand for doing what she did herself?

You, sir, win the thread. Egwene took a nosedive on my like/dislike list here, not to recover until the sheer awesomeness in TGS.

Do people actually celebrate Myrelle and Nisao being forced to swear fealty here? I wasn't aware of that. Certainly it's not on the level that readers celebrate the outcome at Dumai's Wells.

Also, I never had as much of a problem with Lan's being passed around like Thanksgiving dinner as I had with Rand's forced Bonding. Of course, I had also fully expected he would be bonded with Nynaeve in short order. What a fool I was, huh?
Lannis .
23. Lannis
It may be long, but I love this chapter... from Egwene's newfound MOA, to Lan's apologizing for helping to take them out of the TR, it's all delicious! Yum!


Not touching the whole bond-passing thing...


Show of hands... who else thinks that Nicola has bonded Areina? My recollection of tGS is foggy--devoured it fairly quickly--but I don't recall any mention of them in particular, except the whole part about Nicola helping with Egwene's PR as a Tower novice... nothing of Areina... I put a sticky on my desktop with this quote:

Scowling blue-eyed daggers at everyone in sight, Areina ran out of the tent after Nicola, the two women mirror images of disgruntlement and discontent. Seeing the pair of them together made Egwene uneasy.


Crossroads of Twilight, chapter 17, "Secrets" (HC p 430)


They've been in cahoots for a while, and by CoT they're mirroring each other? I think the word "mirror" is a casual plant from RJ... by CoT we know for sure that Elayne and Birgitte reflect each others' feelings... in conclusion: I vote they're bonded. Open fire, folks! :)



Great recap, Leigh! Thanks again! :)
Rob Munnelly
24. RobMRobM
21. Pretty sure Moiraine told Lan; gurus should be able to confirm from the text. She just didn't ask for his consent. R
Leigh Butler
25. leighdb
AbEnd @18:

Um, regardless of whatever point you were trying make there (I assume something about me being hypocritical), quoting someone else's writing at length and without attribution is both plagiarism and tacky.

If you have something to say, use your own words to do it, please.
Bonnie Andrews
26. misfortuona
Lannis@23
I'm not sure about bonded, I've often thought they might be,but honestly I mostly just read past them. Pillow friends probably, but RJ's use of the word mirror might be another of those Cluebats I keep hearing about.

Mis-batter up
James Jones
27. jamesedjones
24 RobMRobM

It's in tGH. During Mo's sabbatical with Vandene and Adeleas (*sp)
j p
28. sps49
This book is still good, but I was beginning to notice the stretching out-ness. Wasn't worried yet, but...

Leigh, are you going to feel the same when the next book is so padded that we get no Mat at all? (Don't answer if you're mad)
JohnY62
29. J.Dauro
RobMRobM 24

Yes she told him that the bond would pass to Myrelle. She did not tell him that she was doing this to get his bond to Nyneave. I believe thats what was meant by "ultimate plan."
Captain Hammer
30. Randalator
RobMRobM @24

She only told him that she had arranged for his bond to be passed to Myrelle after her death and that Myrelle had promised to pass it on when she "finds one who suits better" (TGH, ch. 22).

Lan wasn't particularly amused and Nynaeve was never mentioned. Although, arguably, Moiraine whacks him over the noggin with a family size clue-by-four in that scene.
Karen Fox
31. thepupxpert
The passing of Lan's bond didn't make me go as icky as Rand's forced bonding and Matt's rape by Tylin, those scenes made me go super icky, made my stomache queasy.

I was confused about why Eggs was so adamant about talking with Myrelle in the first place, but I think I get it now that Myrelle was instrumental in sending the ferrets to TV, so Eggs wanted to confront her about that. So it was quite by accident that Eggs found out about Lan. But did Suian know before they actually got the location where he was being held?
Maiane Bakroeva
32. Isilel
Well, Moiraine arranged for the bond to be passed to Myrelle when she was last in the WT as she told Lan in TGH, which was before she came to TR. I assume that they had to be all 3 physically close together for her (and Myrelle?) to set it up and for Myrelle to pass it on to Nyn and I wonder how she hid that she was tempering with the bond from Lan.
So, Moiraine didn't yet know about Lan's impending Great Love (tm), but she didn't want him to die if she did. Later she wrote to Myrelle that she had to transfer Lan to Nyn when Nyn became an AS.

And Lan totally would have done the same to Moiraine if circumstances were reversed ;). They cared about each other deeply.

I am not sure that Myrelle forced Lan into sex either - Lan used to sleep around a lot and he flat-out told Rand that he'd become Myrelle's lover. All that BS about how he'd do the best thing for Nyn by vanishing from her life, etc.

Their search was as important as anything she did. More. The world would live if she failed, but they had to succeed.

Eh, the biggest red herring ever. Repeat after me - the land is one with the Dragon. Bowl of Winds was just busy-work that didn't actually help to forestall the DO-induced famine.

ACOS is the last book that I didn't have to wait for, yet the first that disappointed me, since it seemed needlessly drawn-out and bloated with unnecessary sub-plots. Not the Egs chapters though - they were important.

Re: Egwene, I don't get the condemnation. She has been saddled with responsibility for the SAS and her neck was positioned on the block in case of failure.
Yet they denied her authority, that should have been lawfully hers, to make it work. So, she is forced into shady dealings. That's Realpolitik for you.
And for some reason when Rand does it nobody is offended. It is fairly clear that he needs to unite at least a few nations for TG.
But people refuse to accept that the WT is also an important force that needs to be harnessed for TG, so they jump all over Egwene for her "power hunger". YMMV.

Re: Nicola and Areina - why can't they just be people who initially get in trouble because they have real potential and are impatient and who eventually make it good without being ta'veren or bosom buddies/love interests of the same? Nicola seemed to be redeeming herself in KoD and TGS, I hope that Areina will also get a chance. Put her into Warder training, I say, and she'd be too tired for any future mischief!
j p
33. sps49
It's a bit early to discuss Tylin and Mat, but I never felt too badly for Mat. He was reluctant, yes; but raped? I don't think it is even possible for me to be coerced into an erection, except on waking up, perhaps, and that isn't what's going on.

Moiraine was trying to prevent Lan's death resulting from hers. She may have not done it in the best manner, but she meant well. Alanna, however- she just wanted to control the Dragon Reborn.

Which reminds me- why is only Rand immune? There are Asha'man warders, and they appear subject to their respective Aes Sedai (I do not count the Black Tower attackers here).
JohnY62
34. alreadymadwithpassedbond
Man-O-Manetheran @1
I think Myrelle and Nynaeve at least, have to be in close proximity. The bond was passed the last time Moiraine was in Tar Valon, shortly before proceeding to the Two Rivers. I assume instructions were later sent to Myrelle on whom to pass them on to. As for Myrelle declaring Nynaeve could not handle him, I reluctantly agree that she is the subject matter expert on preserving Warders whose bondholders have died. Plus there is the matter of Nynaeve's block at the time.

misfortuona @17
I beg to differ that Alanna's bond-rape of Rand was useful. Since even without it, Perrin had a clear idea of where the Tower embassy was. He didn't really need it to locate Rand. The Salidar embassy needed it to locate him, but exactly what sort of help were they at Dumai's wells?
Rand actually asks for the bond to be released in Far Madding, but all he got was some BS about him being Alanna's responsibility no matter how she acquired him. Bah.. typical Aes Sedai BS.

J.Dauro @20
Agreed, Siuan was just trying to rattle Myrelle.
As for the bond though, it broke as soon as the door ter'angreal broke down. And Lan figured out almost immediately that his bond had passed to somebody else. He says so right away to Rand, that his bondholder was calling him.

Randalator @21
Myrelle had to compel Lan to get him to Salidar from Cairhien.

lmelior @22
Indeed, Rand had greater justification to ask for oaths of fealty than she did. After all, Rand had just undergone a major screwing around with by Aes Sedai. Egwene? All she had to deal with was some subtle politicking.

sps49 @33
No, other Asha'man Warders are immune as well. In fact, Cadsuane's observation is that it's the men's qualities passing over to the Aes Sedai. Damer's stubbornness being picked up by Corele, Karldin's surliness being manifested by Beldeine. Merise couldn't even deny Narishma his Dragon pin for very long.
R B
35. MasterAlThor
A yo

This was an incredibly long chapter. But, Leigh, as always does a great job. Way to go fearless leader.

I love the chapter for Lan. Captain BA is back and his practicing of the sword forms at light speed proves it.

Bond passing....eh. I don't want to justify it, but anything that I may say will only do just that.

Swearing fealty....oh that's bad. There should be HUGE ramifications from this, but there probably won't be. Disappointing.

Lannis....
I think that they are. Good eye.
JohnY62
36. Rukaiya
sps49@33

I think the Asha'man warders with Rand's Aes Sedai have embraced the traditional warder role. They don't seem to be unhappy at all with their situations. It doesn't seem that odd that they've taken subordinate roles to the Aes Sedai. Rand didn't choose strong personalities; none of them are leaders the way Mazrim Taim or Logain is, whereas the Aes Sedai are quite used to taking the lead. Furthermore, when you think about it, they're probably all quite a bit younger than the Aes Sedai they're bonded to--even Damer--so that makes the Aes Sedai voices of experience. It seems natural that the Aes Sedai would take the lead.
James Jones
37. jamesedjones
33 sps49
Which reminds me- why is only Rand immune? There are Asha'man warders, and they appear subject to their respective Aes Sedai (I do not count the Black Tower attackers here).
I believe it was Rahvin who observed that you are immune to compulsion if you are actively holding the one power. The warder bond is a form of compulsion (and almost as repulsive), and Rand resisted Alanna by seizing the source immediately after being bonded. I do not believe the Ashaman warders are immune, except in this way.
Kerwin Miller
38. tamyrlink
i think the reason the compelling aspect of the bond doesnt work is because its very close (a split hair) to compulsion. and sammael said that compulsion doesnt work on one wrapped in the power.

rand was holding saidin when alanna tried to compel him. we havent had any other screentime of a sister trying to compel a bonded asha'man.

im assuming sammael was right in his statement. but im also gonna go out on a limb and say that that rule only works if one channeller tries to use compulsion on a channeller of the opposite gender. because when moggy and nyn had their showdown in the panarchs palace moggy tried to use compulsion and before she cut it nyn felt adoration and allathat.
JohnY62
39. JennB
@33 Rand is immune because he was holding the power when Alanna tried the compel him. You can't use compulsion on someone while he/she is holding the power.

Randalator@21
You pretty much stated everything I was thinking so I'm gonna be lazy and just say "Ya,like he said."
JohnY62
40. JennB
@33 Well I guess I should hit the refresh button before posting because several people had already aswered your question while I was reading the re-read and first 33 comments. I don't post too often, so I am still learning.
matt
41. mattyh
re: compulsion while holding the power

i recall a scene in TPOD where cyndane and moggy visit graendal, and things get out of hand..graendal uses compulsion on both of them while they're holding the power.

so i guess we really can conclude that holding the power only protects you from compulsion woven by the opposite sex.
Kurt Lorey
42. Shimrod
Is it just me, or am I wrong that Egwene is beginning to make excellent "little" decisions that have a huge impact later on?

Sending Lan to Ebou Dar saves Nynaeve's life (soon enough). I think that is awesome for someone not considered to be either ta'veren or very mature (by her elders).

This is one of the first of many. Rock on, Egwene!
JohnY62
43. AndrewB
Well, I was wrong (again). IIRC, in her commentary of the prologue of ACoS, Leigh said that when the time came, she would let us know what her favorite scene was in ACos. And further, it would not be one that we would have thought.

I guessed that it would be the scene with Egwene and Lan. No statement that this was her favorite scene means I was wrong. Oh well, I guess I will have to wait for Leigh to reveal her favorite ACoS scene.

Although it has been pointed out numerous times, it bears repeating after this chapter. Through TGS, we have yet to see a competant Green Sister (I do not count Egwene as a Green since the Green has not accepted her into the Ajah.)

The only competant Green would be Elayne, with a huge asterick. She was very competant vis-a-vis the succession. However, when it came to Aes Sedai action, she was anything but. Her plan to capture the Black sisters in Camleyn (sp?) was an unmittigated disaster.

Cads was not much better. She though that she could handle Rand and direct him as she wished. Yet that plan flopped big time.

In a time when the "Light" hangs on a balance, a competant Green is nowhere to be found. Morainne is more of a Green than any Green raised prior to the start of the EotW.

Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB

p.s. Leigh, I hope your Saints have a good weekend.
Ron Garrison
44. Man-0-Manetheran
@17 misfortuona
"What I can’t understand is why Rand hasn’t just forced her to give up the bond."

Yes, that and why after all this time Myrelle still hasn't passed Lan's bond to Nynaeve? We know RJ is a crafty writer and I firmly believe there is a reason for both of these things.

@34 amw
Agreed, but it remains why after all this time hasn't the bond been passed to Nynaeve? What surprise does RJ have in store for us?
JohnY62
45. Evan Thomas
@41 and others (re: compulsion bond)

I think that Moiraine tried to compel the super-boys back in TEOTW with the coins, and it didn't work as well as it should. Perhaps being ta'veren protects Rand from Alanna's bond compulsion.
Bonnie Andrews
46. misfortuona
Evan Thomas
The coins were set with a weave similiar to what Elayne uses on the thief/spy's belt buckle guy in Camlyn when she 'hires' him as a spy. It is not compulsion, just a tracking weave.

Still it could be that being Ta'veren protects the super boys from compulsion. After all they are supposed to be controlled by the pattern, not the whims of an AS.

Mis-weaving

edit to add belt buckle, since the weave was placed on the object not what's his name:)
JohnY62
47. alreadymadwithcompulsion
Holding the Power provides some measure of protection but that's not to say it makes one immune to Compulsion. Graendal was able to Compel Moghedien and Cyndane fine even while they were holding the Power. And Cyndane had already been revealed to be stronger than Graendal at that. But then again, this is the Mistress of Compulsion we're talking about. Sammael was probably deluded in thinking holding the Power would protect him from Graendal's Compulsion. Or alternately Graendal's skill or Talent in Compulsion is sufficient to bypass such protection. I don't see how being of the opposite sex makes any difference.

Man-O-Manetheran @44
It's probably something simple like not having time to have all three of them in the same room at the same time.
Bonnie Andrews
48. misfortuona
AMW@47
I don't think it required Lan's presence to pass the bond to Myrelle in the first place, otherwise he'd have probably known something was up. Though I suppose they might have managed the weaves without letting on what they were doing. Sneaky AS.

Mis-bonded
Bonnie Andrews
49. misfortuona
Alright apparently I'm the only one with nothing to do on a Friday night, but this and referee a no holds barred game of Risk.

The Risk game is calling all. I'll check in on all the drunk posting in the morning.

Good night all.

Mis-powershifter
John Massey
50. subwoofer
Ahhhhhhhhh! Beer sweet beer! TGID!
Myrelle's anger affected Bryne as little as rain affecting a boulder. Egwene had a sudden image of storms whirling about his head and floodwaters swirling around his knees while he just kept striding ahead. "Myrelle Sedai," he said with the calm she should have shown, "when ten thousand men or more are shadowing my backtrail, I want to know what their intentions are. Especially this particular ten thousand or more."....


Loved this bit. Reminds me of a cartoon where a little dog is nattering at a big dog about everything under the sun and the big dog just lumbers on... Woof. And leave it to Myrelle to go on about dragonsworn. I do not get what the big deal is with that tittle. People should be proud to follow the Dragon. Isn't that what this is all about anyways? At some point Eggs and the rest should be following the Dragon too. That is the difference between her and Elaida- Eggs wants to work with Rand- in at the very least forming an alliance with dragonsworn, Elaida wants to subjugate Rand.

Nynaeve had better take care; she always did think men were dimmer than they actually were.
"At least they can't get into any real trouble," she told herself aloud. Lan topped a hill and vanished over the other side. Had there been any real danger in Ebou Dar, Elayne or Nynaeve would have said something. They did not meet often-she just had too much to do- but they ahd worked out a way to leave messages int he Salidar or Tel'aran'rhiod whenever there was need for one.


Do I have to get into the bit about the lack of communication and assume making an ass out of u and me? Elyane and Ny were up to it with drek. Any Eggy even tells Lan, Black Ajah plus Forsaken. What does Eggy define as REAL trouble? Nuckin Futs. The lot of them. As stated in a previous thread by a brilliant person whose name escapes me, all the key characters have the ability to communicate with each other over great distances yet they are trapped by the subtext in their own heads as to what is really going on.

Oaths and Rand vs Eggy. Difference being there are many people who want to gentle or at least collar Rand. Eggy just has to deal with manipulation and squabbling. Big difference.

Hal... well, Eggy can't figure out the mind raping and Chesa can. Sometimes great people's egos blind them from the truth. Eggy is no exception to this rule.

Edited because I know wise guys are out there.

Woof™.
Tess Laird
51. thewindrose
Hey all - There are some things I would like to address, but I am on vakay with the kids, so not alot of time to read and comment. Hoping tomorrow will bring some extra time...
JohnY62
52. alreadymadwithblindgirls
subwoofer @50
The problem with these particular Dragonsworn is that they abandoned everything that tied them down before and are now making trouble for everyone else. Their being Dragonsworn was not helping anyone else. Plus the Aes Sedai hate them because they're wild cards. Out of control. Anathema to the anal retentive Aes Sedai.
Yep... Nyneve and Elayne again had a horrible misestimation of the danger they were in. I remember Nynaeve even said they did fine in Tarabon without soldiers. Conveniently forgetting that getting Amathera out of the Panarch's palace required Bayle Domon and his thugs.
John Massey
53. subwoofer
What? I though Mat told buddy to follow Eggy and be prepared to whisk her away if she asks. No trouble here, these guys are following Ta'veren. They are following one of the Dragon's generals, not some random nobles looking as stirring up trouble in the hills of Cairhien for instance...

Back to Ny underestimating men and giving them backhanded thanks if she is forced to.

Woof™.
Ron Garrison
54. Man-0-Manetheran
@52 alreadymadwithblindgirls
I believe you are confusing Mat's army with Masema's dragonsworn. Not surprising as the SAS call them ALL dragonsworn, irregardless. The men Byrne was referring to are Mat's army under Talmane's leadership. Egwene and Mat (IIRC) intended for them to trail along to provide a psychological "push" to the sisters toward Tar Valon.
JohnY62
55. alreadymadwithdragonsworn
Oh yeah... I got it mixed up. But that is part of the reason for their distaste at the Dragonsworn. Masema's rabble and their ilk gave all of them a bad rep.
Ron Garrison
56. Man-0-Manetheran
Exactly! A hundred years later a Brown will discover the error.
Tony Zbaraschuk
57. tonyz
@31 thepupxpert:

>But did Suian know before they actually got the location where he was being held?

No, she didn't. That's why she made Myrelle lead them the last portion of the way.

I think motive has a lot to do with our judgment of actions: the same action can be praiseworthy if done for one reason, and utterly abhorent if done for another. I think I put Moiraine's passing of Lan's bond in this category: she's trying to save his life, not control him for her good or the Tower's, and she's trying to pass his bond where it so obviously needs to go, with the woman he's in love with and the strongest Aes Sedai of this generation (as far as Moiraine knows at the time). I understand Siuan's reaction, but I applaud Egwene's revision of the plan.

Bryne: Yea! He's very politically astute indeed, and he knows what he's doing, knows the risk, and does it anyway.

Halima: Um, yea, YIPE! YIPE! YIPE! It's the contrast between Egwene thinking she's on top of the world (at least for the next thirty seconds or so) and realizing that actually all of this is dancing at the whim of the Forsaken's fingertips. (And then to leave us for the rest of the book while we have lurking in the back of our head "Just _what_ is Halima/Aran'gar/Balthamel up to with a young nubile Amyrlin, anyway? AAAAAGGHH! It is the tenterhooks he has us on, precious, the tenterhooks...)
Tony Zbaraschuk
58. tonyz
As far as glee with the Aes Sedai swearing fealty:

Yeah, I was gleeful. It's not an anti-female reaction, either: it's the exact same reaction I got when Rand slapped down the High Lords of Tear, and for the same reason: here is someone trying to do the right thing, someone accepted as a leader, and a bunch of selfish twits are maneuvering around him on the Day of Armageddon for their own power, at his peril and the world's. Of course I cheer when such as that get slapped down.

The Salidar Six are trying to run the Hall behind its back, and run the Amyrlin behind hers (or not so much behind), and by the ethical standards of their own organization (where the Hall is the interface between the Amyrlin Seat and the Aes Sedai) this is wrong. (I'd have felt a lot better about the Six if they'd folded themselves into the Hall when a full rebel Hall was organized.)
john mullen
59. johntheirishmongol
OK, a lot of stuff goes on in this chapter and most of it is pretty interesting. First thing though is that I agree with that Moiraine and Myrelle worked it out in person between them some time before. Moiraine did tell Lan after, which kind of pissed him off. However, Lan had already given up Nynaeve and told her to forget him, so what Myrelle and Lan did sexwise was up to them. And it isn't so easy for a woman to rape a guy. Seduction, however, is quite another story

What Beslan and Mat have isnt rape either but a form of bdsm.

The AS are very shortsighted about a lot of things and their definition of dragonsworn is pretty limited. They seem to consider them all as if they were followers of the prophet.

Halima, I think part of the weaves is for Egwene to like *her*. But it brings me to an interesting gender bending question about Halima. After the normal self exploration, does she go farther? Or is the mind still male? In which case, does she have a pillow friend?
Sam Mickel
60. Samadai
johntheirishmongol,

Beslan and Mat, I am hoping your reading the same books as the rest of us and mean Tylin and Mat. ;)
JohnY62
61. Lily of the Valley
I LIIIIIIIIIVE!

Re: Swearing fealty

Egwene has HOW many factions pulling at her, trying to use her for their own personal agendas? As far as I'm concerned she was herding 500 kittens, and she just wrangled some of the biggest ones she needs for control. Besides, she left them plenty of wiggle room. If anyone can spin "I was totally following your orders by completely disobeying you and doing my own thing", an Aes Sedai can. Elaida's mandatory oath of obedience/loyalty compels every sister to accept her whims, regardless of whether or not it's Lawful. Elaida takes away free will completely, from day one, while Egwene uses the oaths to get the people who supposedly WANT her for a leader to let her actually lead.

Semantics, perhaps, but I'm with Egwene on this one.

Re: Dragonsworn

Pretty sure the dragonsworn reputation has been tainted what with the thousand years of rape and death by association. I mean, they're following a man who will break the world , a man who can channel, which means death and sickness and general Bad Stuff all around. I can see where they would be frowned upon. I mean, just think of the modern term "militia man". Some associate patriotism, some associate whack jobs. I imagine it's kinda the same for Dragonsworn. The reaction to Dragonsworn never bothered me, and I can see why being labeled as such would make folks uneasy.

Re: Leigh's favorite chapter:

Well, I dunno about our Fearless leader, but MY favorite part of this book was when Elayne set down the SAS Ebou Dar delegation liekwhoa. Slipper, indeed. *sniff*
Alice Arneson
62. Wetlandernw
MoM @ 1 - first, Moiraine didn't pass the bond to Nynaeve because Accepted are NOT allowed to bond Warders; the deal was that Myrelle would pass the bond to Nynaeve as soon as she became full AS. Second, no, I do not believe Moiraine will reclaim Lan's bond when she returns. She may bond Thom, however... ;)

@44 - I think Myrelle & Nynaeve have to be in some proximity for Myrelle to pass the bond. Not that it couldn't happen with a quick bit of Travelling, but so far there have been reasons for Nynaeve to stay away from the SAS, and Myrelle has been kept fairly busy as well. But still... for reasons known only to TeamJordan (presumably) Travelling hasn't been used for practical little things like this very much yet.

Re: Lan being bonded with Nynaeve "in short order" - The time frame for us is horrendously long (well over 13 years) but for them it's less than a year from these events to TGS. I'd give a more exact timeframe, but I'm having trouble with the WoT Chronology site tonight.

Nicola & Ariena Warder-bond... I think it's a little unlikely, since Nicola shouldn't have had an opportunity to see how the weave is created. Then again, we don't know that she didn't, so it's possible. I don't think she's quite precocious enough to figure it out on her own. Maybe she coerced it out of Myrelle.

JennB @ 40 - it happens to all of us!! :) Shrug, laugh, oh well. You're in good company.
Bill Bácsi
63. billbacsi
Hey there y'all!
I'd just like to throw in another bit about the passing of Lan's bond. I think Isilel has it right about the arrangements having been made when Moiraine and Myrelle were together. This explains (well enough to me, at least) why the bond hasn't yet been passed along further. Does Nynaeve know where Myrelle is? Does she know the How of passing a bond?
Also, I think that good ol' Moiraine knew about Lan's WUV for Nyn waaaaay back when. Lan's emotions are in her head after all. The conversation bw Lan and Nyn while in the blight made -me- all emotional, so how could Mo not notice?
B
Tricia Irish
64. Tektonica
Hi all! Sorry I was out of pocket for the Big Post and Excellent Comments here yesterday. You've said most all of what I would've said. Does that make sense? I need more java this AM.

One thing on Dragonsworn......Not only do the SAS lump anyone following Rand into the same pot ie: "Masema's Nuts" and "The Band"....but Joachim Caridin (sp?) instructed his minions to go out and create chaos all over, to make the Dragon look bad. We know the Band is truly the ONLY group following Rand, but of course, the SAS don't bother to find out these facts.

Bonding....Moraine was protecting Lan. She knew he'd go nuts, and find some way to get himself killed if she didn't pass the Bond. That she stipulated it be passed to Nynaeve when she was raised, was a very loving gesture to her former Warder. She knew he loved Nynaeve. She truly cared about Lan, if not in a "lover" kind of way. I *heart* Moraine.
This was nothing like the Bond-rape of Rand by Alanna.

I have real mixed feelings about Egs having the girls swear fealty. On one hand, Egwene is being walked on, has a very small power base of 2 in camp...Siuan and Leanne....and knows she has been set up to take a fall. She needs to manipulate behind the scenes. That she shocks even Siuan, former master manipulator, is a testament to the seriousness of her demanding fealty. It's hard to justify her actions though. It's really not much different from what Elaida did later in the Tower. They both have people swear to THEM, not the Tower or Little Tower or Hall. I dunno.....Real Life vs. Principles.....End justifying the Means?

A case could be made that it is a completely different situation for Rand. He was abused by the TAS and needs the Tower behind him for TG (according to prophecy)...so getting fealty anyway he can is necessary. He has NO trust left for AS and apparently, no honest support either.

John@59: Did Beslan and Matt have a "thing"? I missed that! Tylin, dear...pink ribbons....remember?

Oh and Halima!!! Can't you just see her/him setting the weaves as she/he manipulates her head......you are getting sleepy.......you will like me.....you will let me walk with you in your dreams.....you will talk in your sleep and tell me your plans.....you trust me.....Yikes!!!!
Susan Brownhill
65. SusanB
I don't understand why everyone is up in arms about Eg asking the AS to swear fealty to her. Rand expects fealty from the nobles he has conquered. Even Perrin & Faile have nobles swearing fealty to them. Noone is boo hooing that. An oath of fealty is an exchange. The individual promises to do what the ruler says in order to gain protection from that ruler. That is the exchange Eg has offered. Everyone who swears to her is expected to do what she asks and in exchange she won't turn them over to the Hall for their deserved punishment. She is solidifying her power base, & eliminating competition in a nonviolent fashion. She doesn't ask them to do anything unreasonable. It is NOT sworn on the oath rod. It is no more than an oath any other ruler gets from his/her subjects. In fact, I'm surprised that the WT hasn't been requiring this for decades. Finally, it does have an end point. The Grey (Beonin I think) releases herself from her oath when she believes that Eg is no longer Amyrlin.
Re Lan: If you found out your best friend would die a few days after you; simply because you died...wouldn't you try to save their life? Even if it required you to do something unusual & slightly unethical. L & M are not married. They are not lovers. They are best friends. I don't think this is as horrible as some people suggest. Making sure your best friend lives so he can marry & perhaps have the best & happiest years of his life ahead of him. I think it was awesome of M to do this for L.
N & A why is it that everyone in this story gets spanked except the two of them, who deserve it the most! I wish Myrelle got pissed in this scene, marched over to the two of them, turned N over her knee & smacked her good. Maybe then all her mischief would have stopped.
john mullen
66. johntheirishmongol
Tylin and Mat...yes, my error..

Swearing fealty, I didn't comment on this last nite because I felt it was a natural extension of Egwene developing her strength politically within the SAS. She needs a few people that she can absolutely trust and rely upon and with Ny and Elayne out of town, she is down to weak sisters at the mo. This gives her a sitter and an informant within that circle.
Jack Diamond
67. violetdancer
Hey Guys. I have to apologize because I can't (for the first time) keep up with the reading. I'll have to rely on your insights and Leigh's excellent summaries to keep up, and I'll do my best to read all the comments. This semester is going to be pure hell, and I'm too old to give up any sleep time to WOT.

Re: passing the bond.

It isn't all personal for Moiraine. I'm sure she wanted to save her best friend's life, but she also wanted to retain an excellent fighter against the Shadow. Lan has been in on much that she did to find and help the DR. Why let that go to waste?

Re: fealty.

Egwene was drowning in a sea of AS bullshit and trying not be the puppet Amyrlin everyone assumed she was. She was grasping at grass to help her get up that cliff. Theodrin and Faolain gave her the idea, and I see nothing at all wrong with gaining a very slight advantage.
JohnY62
68. ValMar
Hi All.

I just want to add to the discussion about Eg's demanding oaths.
We should keep it in mind that Egwene's life is at stake, possibly. If she fails to consolidate her position and, by default, the rebelion fissles out an accident might be aranged for her to help the "healing" of the Tower. There is no doubt that the AS will be ruthless with her for the good of the WT, as they see it. So she has to be ruthless too. And on the whole she hasn't been, much.
And I've never been a fan of hers, more of a neutral.
Debbie Solomon
69. dsolo
I was never too put out with Egwene requiring an oath of fealty. Everyone is trying to pull her strings, and set her up for the fall guy. She needs to put an end to some of that manipulation, and requiring an oath was one step forward. She's not planning on making the entire Hall do it (like Elaida's plan). I think RJ was trying to show that Eg is starting to think like a leader (or a WO), instead of a simple country girl. Despite her feelings , she's always thinking about what's best for the WT, and by extension, the world. She's not power hungry, but like Mat and Perrin, leadership is thrust upon her and she accepts it. Also, her musings on warder bonding are only thought processes. Problems have to be considered from different angles, and weighing personal wants/needs against the greater good is part of that. This really comes through in tGS, when she starts the healing process by raising Sylviana as Keeper.

Interesting thought about Nicola bonding Areina. It's an intriguing idea. It seems like Nicola's part of the plot, is to help Eg in winning over the WT. Areina, still a question mark, unless she does become a Warder.

Also, no prob with Mo passing the bond. She knew that she was at risk since she started this quest. Having found the DR, she was really going to attract a lot of negative attention. It's obvious from the way that Myrelle is hounding Nynaeve in Salidar, that she wants to pass her the bond, as soon as Lan is ready. As for sex as part of Myrelle's therapy, it makes sense. Soldiers on leave don't go looking for a game of chess, they look for someone to make them forget the horrors they've seen in battle. It's a way of reminding them that they are still alive. AS have to take the long view. If I have the power to save this man's life, am I prepared to do whatever it takes?

Whatever else Myrelle might be, I think she truly does care. You can feel her despair at the idea of Warders dying. The AS suffer also, if not to the point of embracing death. Unfortunately, they are only allowed to grieve in private. I'm not sure if all of this stiff upper lip persona is good or not. You shouldn't let the world at large know about it, but there should be some kind of grief counseling among the AS. Maybe they're just supposed to do a private penance, and hope a sore butt will take their minds off it.

Sorry, I'm heading off on different tangents now. Whoa, Bela!
R B
70. MasterAlThor
Hey guys,

The thing that is wrong with the Egg's fealty thingy is that it is that slippery slope and ends justifying the means thing.

Some peeps have no problem with it, others do. And when she gets to yelling at Rand for having sisters swear oaths to the Dragon Reborn it's going to scream all kinds of hypocrisy. There will be much pot calling kettle black and all that.

While we are on that, Rand did even have a choice in the matter. Prophecies you see. Pattern forced that to happen. But Egg's won't see that. For all her vaughnted intellegence she won't even figure it out. Oh well.

Leigh's fav scene...

I got two guesses. When Nyn loses her block. Ugh. I'll talk about that later. Or when Mat tells Renaile...

"I don't care about your bargains with anybody else, you daughter of the sands."


That's what I think.
Cian Grogan
71. Caine09
Yay Lan is back and more badass then ever. He's also clearly a multitasker: being able to do all those swordforms (which by now are second nature to him, would love to see him beat Gaywn in a duel just to knock the lad of his high "Im the best swordsman horse")

Also fair play to Gareth, always loved that guy, he's so wise and definitly a guy you want on your side.

Moiraine's passing of the bond, the possibilities:

1) She knew she would surive travelling through the doorway and jst didnt want Lan to know.
2) She hoped she would surive and didnt want Lan to know.
3) She knew she would die and didnt want the most badass warrior (Lan) ever, to die because of it.

Yeah so what, Lan had sex with Myrelle, the guy is going through a rough time of it give a guy a break. He clearly loves Nyneave so its not really cheating more of a necessity.

"The watch is not done" what an epic line to say just before you ride off into the distance!

So why doesn't Nyneave get the bond? Maybe its simply because Moiraine doesnt recognize Nyneave as a full Aes Sedai and therefore she shouldn't have a Warder.

Or maybe its because she's coming back for him...

Well Egwene learned a lot that day didnt she, she learned that Byrne is loyal to her BIG PLUS.

Ah Halima, why.....
Tricia Irish
72. Tektonica
Master-Al-Thor@70:

I get that Egwene is building her power base (see #64), but I agree with you...a very slippery slope, indeed. And given that everyone gets outraged when Elaida tries the same nonsense in tGS, it's an especially slick slope. Egs is outraged at Elaida! (Yes, I know, Elaida was going to make sisters swear another oath to that effect...and that is worse, but it's in the same general direction.)

Egs is between a rock and a hard place. The sisters can always denounce their oath, and Egwene is providing a service (not punishing them) for fealty, which they accept, but it still makes me kind of squirm.

Also agree with you that Egs won't be so understanding when she learns that Rand had some sisters swear fealty. She won't get it at all. And yes, that is the pattern in action. It is what he needs for TG, according to prophecy.
John Massey
73. subwoofer
@dsolo- very much enjoyed reading your musings and if I haven't said in the last thread, welcome onboard!

@M A T- I'm having to agree with you and Tek here. The swearing is a slippery slope. I do appreciate the situation that Eggy was in and it is tough being set up as a figure head and ritual cannon fodder. That being said, where is the line drawn? Does Eggy only have a few people swear to her to form a power base and then back to normal? Does she then release these people from thier oaths? Does Eggy take the next step and have all AS swear to her? Does Eggy form an inner sphere of trusted AS that have taken oaths to her- thereby creating a division which is what she always talks about avoiding. I am just asking what is the next logical step and where will it end.

For Rand, I get it, suffer no fools, suffer no AS bandying words with you. Get an oath and get it done. Maybe not to swear obedience, or maybe not even Moiraine oaths, but get them to speak honest and direct and not to mince words. No politician/Oracle/AS speak.

As for Dragonsworn... it is a shame when events of the past prejudice the future. Yes Rand is going to shake the world. In this case however, he is the real Dragon, not a false one, and to deny that the Dragonsworn following Mat are legit is to deny that Rand is legit. Masema- well, there is always zealots and lunatic fringe out there.

Hi Lily:)

Woof™.
Julian Augustus
74. Alisonwonderland
Isilel@7:

I don't know if someone else has replied to the following comment, but I would like to add my word if necessary, before I read on and forget. To your comment:
So, why didn't Egwene send off Myrelle with Lan for a couple of days, to transfer the dratted bond? Oh, yes, because she too decided to drag things out by dropping him more than a week out of Ebu Dar. Sigh.

I say, no, definitely not. Remember that at this time, Nynaeve was not even a proper Aes Sedai. True, Egwene had announced that Nynaeve was AS, but that didn't make her one in anything but the name. The woman couldn't channel a lick most of the time, not unless she was angry enough to chew rocks, and letting a non-channeling (most of the time) woman bond a warder is not something that would be within the realm of consideration by ANY Aes Sedai. Egwene has more than enough problems without setting the entire AS camp against her by seeming to act against all custom if she forces Myrelle to pass on the bond to Nynaeve. The AS are all very sensitive about issues that touch on the bond, as this very chapter conclusively demonstrates.

I think Egwene's compromise here was perfect, send him off to ACT as Nynaeve's warder without landing herself in hot water by messing with the very touchy issue of the bond, which can be sorted out later between Nynaeve and Myrelle when Nynaeve felt capable. What can be a neater solution than that? We really need to give the author some credit for having reasons for writing the story a certain way instead of always assuming right away that his main motive was to drag things out.
Alice Arneson
75. Wetlandernw
I have to point something out here... Its been said several times, but it seems that it bears repeating. Egwene asked for an oath of fealty. This, as someone pointed out, is a two-way obligation. It also allows the one swearing some latitude in how to best serve and support the one to whom they are sworn. Elaida was talking about an oath of obedience to her personally, sworn on the Oath Rod. This would give her absolute power over anyone who swore it, and would give them no option but to obey her to the letter, no matter what the consequences. She could order someone who displeased her to go jump off the top of the Tower, and they'd have no option but to go jump. PLEASE don't liken these two oaths. They are not at all the same.

Whether Egwene will cut loose at Rand for the AS who swore fealty to him remains to be seen. Her anger about what she's been told is really pretty reasonable; AS are already supposed to be committed to the Tower, and forcing them to swear fealty to someone else is questionable at best. If Rand had actually forced them to swear, he would have put them in an untenable situation of potentially conflicting loyalties. As Amyrlin, Egwene is naturally going to object on behalf of those who are her responsibility. (If she ever has the opportunity to learn the truth that they were only forced by the Pattern, not by Rand himself, and if she can see and acknowledge the difference, it may turn out to be a non-issue. Given communications in WoT, chances of her learning and acknowledging all that are fairly low, but still...)

Yes, it can be a slippery slope to start accepting personal fealty, but under the circumstances it may be necessary. The AS are very used to making their own decisions, restricted only by Tower custom & law, the direction of the Hall, and the leadership of the Amyrlin. Under the fractured conditions in which they find themselves, the SAS are pretty much all going their own way. They don't really believe the charade they are playing, and they are each making their own decisions based on their personal perspective. If they are ever going to unite the Tower and have any hope of being prepared for TG, they have to all start pulling in the same direction. Egwene may or may not be the individual best qualified to direct their united efforts, but these AS put her in the position of being the leader, and she is putting her whole self into doing the job they gave her. They may have thought they were setting up a puppet, but no puppet is going to get them where they are going, and they picked the wrong girl to play puppets with. Egwene is going to do the job she swore to do, but she can't lead if they won't follow. At this point, she's requiring them (a few at a time) to acknowledge her position and follow her lead. If they had been honest in choosing an Amyrlin that they thought would lead, and had followed her lead as they should, this would never have been necessary. So... they brought it on themselves; all Egwene is doing is making them promise outright to do what they implied (but never intended) they would do when they chose her as Amyrlin.

FWIW, I think Egwene will release them from their oaths of fealty if they wish, once things have settled down in the WT. And I'm absolutely confident that she will never EVER ask any AS to swear absolute obedience to her, especially on the Oath Rod. Gawyn, now.... if he wants to be her Warder she might require some promises. Then again, given his record of decision-making thus far, it might be better. ;)
Julian Augustus
76. Alisonwonderland
Thepupxpert@31:
The passing of Lan's bond didn't make me go as icky as Rand's forced bonding and Matt's rape by Tylin, those scenes made me go super icky, made my stomache queasy.

I have major problems with the way the word rape is tossed around so casually on this board. Throughout the re-reads there have been many references to Tylin raping Mat (note to thepuxpert: the name is Mat, not Matt) and now Myrelle is accused of raping Lan. Well, I'm tired of it, and I think it cheapens or diverts attention from the very real emotional trauma that can be visited on women by the violence that men perpetuate in rape situations.

Notice that I said men violating women when I use the word rape. I sincerely hope that all those making the Tylin-raped-Mat comments are women who don't know how a man's sexual activity works. Well, I'm a man, and I know it is physiologically (biologically?) impossible to rape a man, because he cannot perform the sex act if he is not sexually aroused. I defy anyone to show me how a man who looks at a woman and the only emotion he has is terror, or anger, or is not sexually aroused by the woman for whatever reason, can not only get it up, but get it up strongly enough to actually penetrate and do the act.

Tylin may have pressured Mat into having sex, but the fact that Mat was able to physically perform the sex act with Tylin again and again and again takes their sex as far away from true rape as it is possible to get. So, let us not confuse Tylin and Mat's romps with rape, it cheapens the word and, by its overuse, seeks to tone down the horror we must all feel for that crime. Mat enjoyed sex with Tylin. Period. And he looked forward to it (I'm sure later in this book or in tPoD we'll come to the passage where Mat was wishing Tylin would come in and "stab the bedpost", their code for having sex). It was not rape.
Julian Augustus
77. Alisonwonderland
sps49@33:
It's a bit early to discuss Tylin and Mat, but I never felt too badly for Mat. He was reluctant, yes; but raped? I don't think it is even possible for me to be coerced into an erection, except on waking up, perhaps, and that isn't what's going on.

Precisely. I saw this, your short and to-the-point comment, only after I had posted my wordier comment on the same issue.
Julian Augustus
78. Alisonwonderland
amw@47:
Holding the Power provides some measure of protection but that's not to say it makes one immune to Compulsion. Graendal was able to Compel Moghedien and Cyndane fine even while they were holding the Power. And Cyndane had already been revealed to be stronger than Graendal at that.

Actually, Graendal was wearing a ring angreal (stolen from Sammael's rooms) at the time, and was stronger than Cyndane by a fair multiple in this confrontation. In fact, I think the key to resisting compulsion lies in the relative strengths, not skill, of the channelers. Rand seized saidin as soon as Alanna bonded him, but it would not have prevented him from being compelled if he had not been much stronger than Allana and Verin joined.
Antoni Ivanov
79. tonka
Wow I completely got caught up with real life. And completely forgot about this recaps.Probably no one remembers me :( Now I read all 8 parts. And that was one of the best hours I spent in the past few months. Thank you for that ,Leigh Butler. You have done amazing job in making me forget all the troubles. It was funny , witty , interesting . Thank you! I don't know if it matter to you but I needed this few hours.
Tricia Irish
80. Tektonica
Alisonwonderland@76: Here Here! I concur. Rape is serious business and I could never figure out how a woman could rape a man, except psychologically, perhaps.

What Alanna did to Rand.....Bond-rape...... I believe violates him psychologically, and is a form of rape. It is an uninvited invasion of his body.Pretty permanently too.

Do you think that's a accurate description? I don't think it cheapens the horror of actual rape to describe the forced bonding in that way. I think it is a nightmare as well.

And Mat grumbles all the time....complaining is one of his characters features, but he obviously likes his fun with Tylin. (We'll get to that soon enough.)
John Massey
81. subwoofer
Just because you don't think it can happen does not make it fact. Men are just not likely to report such an event. It is an affront to any man to admit that he is not in control with a woman. Heck, Demi Moore and Michael Douglas made a whole movie about it.

I do agree about Tylin reversing the tables on Mat to not be as big a deal as it sounds. Mat formed emotional attachments to Tylin and I think he cared for her. He did ask her if "the Daughter of the Nine Moons" meant anything.

Don't want to start a flame war here but I do have an different opinion.

Edit- you will note that I did not say that Tylin rapes Mat. I said she turns the tables on him. Tylin pursues Mat. Mat even says something to the effect that it is not natural and he should be the one doing the chasing.

Woof™.
Tricia Irish
82. Tektonica
Sub: I don't think Tylin "rapes" Mat.....she is just the aggressor, which in Randland is probably pretty rare for someone other than a wench in a brothel.

I'm sure Mat was shocked, but flattered and eventually really liked it. He did genuinely like her.
JohnY62
83. ValMar
Re: Mat and Tylin
I think sub@81 is right that men can be sexually abused/molested but with Mat and Tylin this wasn't the case, IMHO. It wasn't quite right, too, because of Tylin's initial advanses being from a position of power (being the Queen, in her own palace)but Mat ultimatly enjoyed the ride...
The word rape is being used way too freely.

IIRC, Mat's main problem is that he is being courted, not the other other way around.
Tricia Irish
84. Tektonica
Sub: My bad.....didn't mean to imply YOU said the R word. Which I guess I did. Apologies.
JohnY62
85. ValMar
I too didn't mean to imply that Sub said the R word, which my first sentense @83 appears to do.
Captain Hammer
86. Randalator
alreadymad @34

Myrelle had to compel Lan to get him to Salidar from Cairhien.

What's that got to do with the two having sex?


Man-O-Manetheran @44

Yes, that and why after all this time Myrelle still hasn't passed Lan's bond to Nynaeve? We know RJ is a crafty writer and I firmly believe there is a reason for both of these things.

Maybe it is because they haven't been in the same location since and Nynaeve still isn't a proper Aes Sedai?


misfortuona @46

The coins were set with a weave similiar to what Elayne uses on the thief/spy's belt buckle guy in Camlyn when she 'hires' him as a spy. It is not compulsion, just a tracking weave.

Um, no. Moiraine flat out stated that the coins should have made Rand more compliant but didn't for some reason.

After I gave you the token, the coin, and made that bonding, you should have been willing to fall in with whatever I wanted, but you resisted, questioned.
(TEotW, ch. 52)




To those claiming that men cannot be raped:

I'm sorry but you have no clue what you are talking about. Men can be raped. Men can get aroused despite fear, terror, etc. Just as it is possible for women to orgasm while being raped (which adds a whole new world of psychological damage to the already existing one when it happens).

These are physical reactions that can be influenced by the emotional state but not controlled. As long as there isn't an underlying medical condition anything can be done with the right stimulation.

Read and understand: klick, klick


And in Mat's case, he was forced into bed by Tylin at knifepoint, she cut his clothes off his body aginst his will, she slept with him against his will. That is rape, Ladies and Gentlemen, nothing else. Even if he came to enjoy it in some ways, there is no tiptoeing around the fact that the whole thing started out as rape!
JohnY62
88. ValMar
Maybe we should discuss Mat & Tylin dungeon activities in more detail when we reach that point in the re-read? More topical and fresher in the mind. Personally, my memory isn't what it is at the grand age of 28.
Alice Arneson
89. Wetlandernw
I'm with ValMar - let's discuss Mat & Tylin when we get there. I always had the impression Mat was more bothered by being "the pursued" than anything else with Tylin (well, that and the pink ribbons), but I'll wait until we read it again to debate the point.
John Massey
90. subwoofer
@Tek- no need to appologize:)I have thick fur...

I was just remembering Mat lamenting to Elayne that he was hunted down like a prize stag, etc, etc, and then being all chagrined about what he said and who he said it to and wanting a do-over of the whole conversation...

As I said, don't want to start a flame war here...

OTOH this is another case in point where RJ does role reversals. I am wondering if the same can be said for Lan and Nynaeve, especially considering their Sea-Folk marriage and the customs it involves in terms of dominance.

Woof™.
Jamie Watkins
91. Treesinger
I just wanted to put my two coppers into the discussion concerning the transfer of the Warder's bond. I was mystified during my first two readings of this book as to how the transfer of the bond was made. Most of the channeling done in these books is done in pure line of sight -- the canneler usually has to see the subject in order to use a weave on them. The exception seems to be using a Ter'angeal or some other power talisman. I think what everyone is saying it that Moraine had this whole set up with Myrelle ahead of time - I guess to keep Lan from killing himself -- and when she "died" his bond was instantly transferred. It just seems so different from any other way of channeling that I am not quite getting it.
John Massey
92. subwoofer
Dang this thread is really smokin'... or maybe it is just the muscle relaxants I took making me loopy.

Edit- It may be the awkward topic recently brought up making folks uncomfortable. I've had the same feeling before... of course the words "turn and cough" were interspersed with said feelings:P

I never did really get into the discussion of passing the bond or if it was legit or not. Maybe I did in a roundabout way.

First off, I question whether passing though the door frame caused the bond to transfer or if Moiraine did it herself intentionally. Knowing what I know about Mo, everything she does seems deliberate, even her oaths to Rand, to get what she wants in the end- I'd say that Mo did the passing of the bond, and we were made to think the ter'angreal caused the severing. Geeze that sentence sucks, but whatever.

Now about the good or bad of passing the bond. Well- end result- Lan lives, so it cannot be all that bad. Now as to passing to Myrelle or altering the weave to Nynaeve, I am thinking that Mo did do the right thing. Ny was blocked, not a full AS-and apparently it is a no no to be accepted and have a Warder- and let's face it, Ny was still figuring stuff out. Ny is older and seemingly more mature that the rest of the TR gang, but she is still a novice when it comes to certain matters. And she is totally taken with Lan.

Just on a side note here, the ranking of AS and Ny and the other three channelers who have more ability than her, is one the new rising of the Chosen? Maybe this turning of the Wheel's replacement for the fallen?

I dunno.

Woof™.
Julian Augustus
93. Alisonwonderland
Randalator@86:
To those claiming that men cannot be raped:

I'm sorry but you have no clue what you are talking about.

From the superior tone of your response, I expected some amazing insights from the article you cited. But this is the evidence that the article uses to refute my claim that it is physiologically impossible for a woman to rape a man?

Historically, the rape of males was more widely recognized in ancient times. Several of the legends in Greek mythology involved abductions and sexual assaults of males by other males or gods. The rape of a defeated male enemy was considered the special right of the victorious soldier in some societies and was a signal of the totality of the defeat. There was a widespread belief that a male who was sexually penetrated, even if it was by forced sexual assault, thus "lost his manhood," and could no longer be a warrior or ruler. Gang rape of a male was considered an ultimate form of punishment and, as such, was known to the Romans as punishment for adultery and the Persians and Iranians as punishment for violation of the sanctity of the harem (Donaldson, 1990).

Obviously, this article is talking about something completely different from what I was referring to, and you know it. As requested by other posters, I'll stop here and take this up further when we get to the Tylin chapters.
Alice Arneson
94. Wetlandernw
Hi, tonka! Hi, Lsana! ::waves:: We've been missing a few of the old faithfuls here lately; I was wondering if some folks just got tired of the hashing and rehashing on the TGS spoiler threads and went away permanently, but y'all seem to be coming back to the recap now that it's going again. Glad to see you. I missed someone else (or two) who just showed up again... Can't find you now, but you know who you are, and I'm waving at you. ;) But hey, we've added a few great new folks over the course of the TGS business, too, so now we're bigger, slightly crazier, and as much fun as ever. Mostly harmless.
Leigh Butler
95. leighdb
Hey guys,

I see you've already put a kibosh on it yourselves, but for what it's worth let me add my vote that we postpone discussing the Mat/Tylin thing until we get to it in the recap, owing to the sensitivity of the topic.
Alice Arneson
96. Wetlandernw
Okay, so here's what I actually got back on to talk about... More of those musings while washing dishes. I know the big Oath Rod debate was on Part 7, but I'm going to drag it out again.

I read an article the other day about some new drug treatment that they claim can "cure" my son's diagnosis. (This set my teeth on edge, for starters, because you can't "cure" a genetic condition like an extra copy of a chromosome. It's not a disease. GRRRRR.) But it got me thinking about various drug treatments that are coming available, and how you determine whether or not to use them. It comes down to benefit vs. cost. If there's a drug that will help our son's brain function more effectively, we need to consider it. On the other hand, in order to consider it, we need to know what the other effects will (or might) be. What price might we pay for a slight increase in memory function? Since he's only 8, we have to make these decisions for him right now, but we have to consider long-term effects.

To cut the rambling a little shorter... what trades do you make in life? If you have the opportunity to use a drug therapy that will dramatically increase your ability to function in society, but will cut your life expectancy in half, what do you choose? What if you're making the choice on behalf of someone else? How do you determine "quality of life" for yourself, much less for someone else? Who can make that determination for someone else?

If you have an Oath Rod that has been perceived as the one thing that makes you, with your unusual abilities, able to function effectively in society, do you give it up for an extended lifespan? And who can make that decision on behalf of several thousand people? Can one person, or twenty, decide that doubling your lifespan is worth eliminating what is perceived as your defining element?

Ever since I learned the origin of the Oath Rod, I thought it should be set aside or its usage at least dramatically modified. Thinking about it from a different angle tonight, though, I'm starting to see Siuan's stance, and Egwene's reversal, as being more valid than I thought. I certainly wouldn't condone any attempt at making other channelers (Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin, Asha'man) start using it; that would not only be the height of arrogance, it would be totally out of line. But to insist that Aes Sedai abandon it, when they have held it for a thousand years and more as "what makes you Aes Sedai," is just as arrogant and out of line. How can it be right to require someone to accept an extra couple hundred years of life, when they will have to live those years with the knowledge that they abandoned their moral code?

I have no idea what RJ was thinking about in terms of the story line, and it may have nothing whatsoever to do with the angle I've been considering tonight. But if it were real life, and I had to make a recommendation, I would never require anyone to "unswear" their Oaths, except in the way Egwene used it to clear out the BA. It should be made known among all AS exactly what it was designed for, and what its side effects are, but every woman who has sworn on it should have the right to maintain her integrity as she sees it. I think a formalized relationship among all the different groups of channelers should be created, and from here on out anyone who can channel should be given the option of taking those Oaths. Within a couple hundred years, it would probably fall back into its original usage, being used only to bind those who refuse to be voluntarily bound by law. The really tricky part is what to do for the next fifty years or so, when the existing AS will be unable to trust or respect any who choose not to swear, and those who choose not to swear may sneer at those who do. It's not as easy and straightforward as it seems.

Not sure I did any justice to the actual concept; my brain is fuzzing tonight. Hopefully someone will see what I'm trying to get at and clarify it as needed. :)
Barry T
97. blindillusion
Wetlander, now that you've presented the Oath Rod situation in that light, I would have to agree with you. The Oath Rod should be an option. But I will still say that all Aes Sedai need to be told very soon just what the rod does.

The question will probably always be there as to whether or not the Aes Sedai find out the OR is a binder meant for use against criminals. I'd have to give a not likely...unless one of the remaining Forsaken decides to be nasty.

I would also like to say...hey Leigh, go Saints!!!

edit: 97 ~ (3*3)&7 ~ 3+3+7=13 =)
j p
98. sps49
sub @81-

don't want to start anew, just want to say you made me learn a new word today!

highlight below if curious:
frottage
Maiane Bakroeva
99. Isilel
Wetlandernw @75:

Couldn't agree more. Not being a character for whom things just fall into her lap (i.e. ta'veren), Egwene had the choice between resigning to being ineffectual and gaining some authority by engaging in Realpolitik.
Slippery slope? Far less slippery than Mat engaging in games of luck knowing for sure that the other sucker can't win, IMHO.

Naturally, everybody resorting to somewhat dubious means out of necessity should take care that they don't go too far down that road. But oath of fealty is hardly a gross abuse.
In fact, Rand has been demanding them right and left under implicit threats.
Yes, sure he needs to make the world ready for TG, but so does Egwene need to do with the WT. Yet somehow Rand gets a pass, but Egwene is considered power-hungry! Doesn't compute.

Re: Rand and the SAS, I fail to see how him being hurt by the TAS faction gave him any justification. That's like saying that he should have punished other Aiel for Shaido's transgressions with the rationale that they are all Aiel, after all ;).

Re: the Oath Rod, IMHO the code of AS has little to do with the actual Oaths. Nor did the Oaths really help with acceptance by the general populace or making people of problematic character "safe", i.e. their failed in their purpose.

And the entry of a number of other groups of channelers who are not so bound makes the Rod even more useless and harmful, IMHO. People won't be able to distinguish between bound and non-bound channelers. And of the former do something rerehensible, they'd still blame the latter.
Tricia Irish
100. Tektonica
Isilel@90:

OK, I"m convinced. I'll cut Egwene some slack here. She needs to build her power base and get some traction with the SAS.

As for justifying Rand's use of oaths of fealty....he not only was abused by the TAS terribly, he has been pushed and prodded and pulled by every AS he's encountered since day one. No one asks him if he'd like some help? "Need any advice Rand? What are your thoughts, Rand? Let me see...I might have some knowledge here that would help you." Nooooo...they just want to control him in a very blunt fashion. Dictate. Besides, he needs this according to prophecy for TG.

Re: the Oath Rod, IMHO the code of AS has little to do with the actual Oaths. Nor did the Oaths really help with acceptance by the general populace or making people of problematic character "safe", i.e. they failed in their purpose.

And the entry of a number of other groups of channelers who are not so bound makes the Rod even more useless and harmful, IMHO. People won't be able to distinguish between bound and non-bound channelers. And of the former do something rerehensible, they'd still blame the latter.


Totally agree. The AS should ask themselves; Is this working for you? No. The reasons the OR was used initially may have been of the highest order, but it's use has been subverted by the AS for a long time. No one trusts them. Why can't people just take an oath, sans Rod, and live by their word? Use the OR as punishment for those who violate the oaths? As it was meant to be used.

Gotta get offa this soap box! Sorry for the rant. I just long for personal integrity re: Oaths.
JohnY62
101. ValMar
Wetlander@96
First of all, my best wishes for your kid. From your writings on these threads I believe that your son got lucky with his parents.

Re: the Oath Rod. I believe you are right about the pay-off between the life span vs AS being able to function at their best. But only if a very major assumption holds true.
Others put it very eloquently, already, that what the 3 Oaths ment to achieve in theory they failed in practice. Even without adding the Black Ajah in to the mix.
Clearly there is a need for some form of checks and balances on the AS and the Oath Rod can play a part in it (e.g. to place some kind of oath, for discipline, rooting Blacks if applicable etc. But the current system is just not fit for purpose, IMO.

As for who can make the decision, it doesn't have to be one person, like Eg. All AS should be given the relevant info- original use of the rods; life span reduction- and then they can have a week or two of debates and then vote. Ideal form of democracy- everyone directly involved has a voice.

@Isilel. You can not compare the 11 clans vs Shaido and TAS vs SAS. Rand's Ailel fought and died for Rand vs the Shaido and others. SAS attitude towards Rand is, lets say, somewhat ambiguous. But on Eg and swearing fealty I agree with you.

Damn Tek got in there before me ;)

Thanks for reading
John Massey
102. subwoofer
Well, seeing as we are all about Oath Rods here, I'll just further a thought. It was mentioned that the Binder was used back in the day for criminals. To me that speaks volumes. Not to mention the fact that the three oaths placed in unison limits the life of the person swearing.

Towards the end of tGS-yes, me, spoiler, fooey- I think Egwene uses the Binder as it was intended. Egs traps Sheriam in a lie. Then she passes the rod around and has the sisters cleanse themselves and proclaim the Oaths.

There is pain involved in releasing themselves from the Oaths but would it be an idea to have an annual or semi-annual swearing of Oaths- then maybe releasing and letting the Sisters go about as they will. I know it is a revolving door, but my rational is that I do not feel the DO would allow a release of his oaths. Dun is dun. Once you go to the Dark Side it seems that the only way back to the Light is on your death bed.

Hi Leigh- see, we are happy people, no need for referees here. The Greeks would be proud.

Woof™.
Captain Hammer
103. Randalator
Alisonwonderland @93

It helps if you're actually reading past the first paragraph.

Some men may believe they were not raped or that they gave consent because they became sexually aroused, had an erection, or ejaculated during the sexual assault. These are normal, involuntary physiological reactions. It does not mean that the victim wanted to be raped or sexually assaulted, or that the survivor enjoyed the traumatic experience. Sexual arousal does not necessarily mean there was consent.

According to Groth, some assailants may try to get their victim to ejaculate because for the rapist, it symbolizes their complete sexual control over their victim's body. Since ejaculation is not always within conscious control but rather an involuntary physiological reaction, rapists frequently succeed at getting their male victims to ejaculate.


So, yeah...

Just because the article deals mainly with male-male rape doesn't mean that the "physics" don't apply for women raping men. They do.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
Tricia Irish
104. Tektonica
Where is everyone? On the couch in front of football?
Can't you multitask?

Congrats to Saints, Vikings, Colts fans! Geez, Bret looked awesome! Aren't you up there somewhere close, Wetlander? Fun to watch Bret heave that thing into Rice's arms. Fun if you're a Vikings fan.
Rob Munnelly
105. RobMRobM
To all - a short editorial note, responding to some of the commentary directed Randalator's way up above: I shared with him a strong negative reaction to the tone of some of the posts which stated categorically that men cannot be raped; and I agreed his linked quotes were on point. A gentle reminder to all on both sides of the issue that we all should to try to frame posts where possible to state opinions and not tell others that their views on RL issues are factually wrong. Appreciate that. Will save the discussion on the merits for when we get there. Rob

P.s. On entirely other topics,
- I have been avoiding RL football talk because I am a Patriots fan and it is too painful; and
- I had third row center seats to a Boston showing of the Broadway musical "In the Heights" which was fabulous. What a show!
Thomas Keith
106. insectoid
::sigh:: Free was right.

A moment of silence, please, for the San Diego Chargers...

bz™.
Rob Munnelly
107. RobMRobM
106. Could have been the Patriots. Put me out of my misery....
Tricia Irish
109. Tektonica
My sympathies to you, RobM, and you too, Insectoid. I too am a Pats fan, and was definitely rooting for the Chargers. RIP for this year. Rest and recover.


And.....let the *twitching* begin!
Barry T
110. blindillusion
While I’ve stayed away from the issue of Moiraine passing Lan’s Bond to Myrelle for the simple reason that is has never really bothered me, I’d like to address something I don’t think has been mentioned as of yet.

Couldn’t this situation be considered much the same thing as keeping a person on life support, even if that person has the capacity to make that decision for himself? After all, while it is the responsibility of the Warder to keep his Aes Sedai alive, isn’t it also the responsibility of the Aes Sedai to do everything within her power to keep her Warder alive as well?

Moiraine knows Lan is important even above his station as a Warder. And she cares for him beyond that position as well. And Lan has quite possibly the strongest death wish I’ve ever read about. So, Moiraine, by passing Lan’s Bond, is simply doing what any good Aes Sedai would do…ensuring the survival of her charge. When Lan excepted the Bond, he accepted a responsibility. Well, Moiraine accepted a responsibility as well: protect Lan and keep him from dying, even if he brings it upon himself…as he would have done had Moiraine not passed his Bond.

And to compare what Moiraine did to what Alanna did is, well, like comparing an apple to a frying pan. Moiraine = acting on a responsibility. Sure, she should have told Lan about it, but still…it’s what the man signed on for, right?

Alanna = impulse move brought on by opportunity and near soul-searing grief. Sure, she immediately tried to use to Bond to control Rand, but let’s not forget…the woman just lost a Warder. She wasn’t in complete control of herself. For that matter, I still don’t get why everyone was so suspicious of her actions in the Two Rivers when she went off by herself. Um, she was going to cry, grieve, and probably blow some shit up. Sometimes a person grieving is just that…a person grieving.

Sorry if a bit rambling. Also I guess some people might severely disagree with me. But I’m tired and I’ll use the new baby excuse. So sue me. =)

Oh…the Super Bowl will be Colts vs. Saints. … And, of course, the Saints WIN THE WHOLE SHA-BANG!!!
Alice Arneson
111. Wetlandernw
ValMar @101 - Thank you. :) We do our best.

I just had to stir up the Oath Rod discussion - it was too one-sided. On a personal level, as a reader, I can see everything that's wrong with it. I just think that, if you try to get into a character POV, it's not that simple.

When the only channelers Randland knew were the Aes Sedai and the men who would go mad, it really did work pretty well. If the first Oath was abused to the point of a proverb ("The truth an Aes Sedai tells you is not always the truth you think it is."), there were some things you knew about Aes Sedai. One, if she told you something straight up, it was true. Two, you need have no fear that an Aes Sedai will destroy your home or family, even though she clearly has power that would make it possible. She just won't. Three, if your nation (city, village, whatever) is at war with another, the Aes Sedai will neither join the battle (on either side) nor make weapons giving one side an advantage over the other. Four, you know that Aes Sedai fight against the Dark One and the Shadowspawn with all the Power they have. (I grant you that last is tenuous for some, especially in areas like the Two Rivers where they don't see AS more than once in several generations. In that situation, there are bound to be some, at least, who will view anything unfamiliar as coming from the Dark One. But if you look at countries where the AS are more visible, it isn't a very common superstition.)

The idea that Aes Sedai are trusted because of the Oaths isn't really as dumb as we tend to think.

I know, I know, with the other channelers coming out of the woodwork everywhere, the Black Ajah making a hash of the Oaths, to say nothing of the life-limits it is causing, it's simply not tenable to continue using the Oath Rod as it has been used for thousands of years. But I think we have tended to dismiss its value a little too readily.

And I have to stop now... WoW calls. ;) Catch y'all on Part 9 tomorrow!
Hugh Arai
112. HArai
Wetlander@111:

I have to disagree. Anyone able to observe the 3 Oaths put into practice by actual Aes Sedai (and thus pretty much any ruler, noble, merchant council, etc. with regular exposure to Aes Sedai) would know all the Oaths essentially give no protection at all.

One, if she told you something straight up, it was true.

All the first Oath nets you is that the Aes Sedai can find an interpretation to what she said that she can rationalize to herself to be true. Beonin demonstrated just how weak that is.

Two, you need have no fear that an Aes Sedai will destroy your home or family, even though she clearly has power that would make it possible. She just won't.

You need not fear she will directly use the One Power to destroy your home or family. This is very much not the same thing. Nothing about the Oaths prevents her from having her Warder break your kneecaps, hiring some thugs to torch your place and intimidating the local noble into throwing you in a dungeon.

Three, if your nation (city, village, whatever) is at war with another, the Aes Sedai will neither join the battle (on either side) nor make weapons giving one side an advantage over the other.


This is also not true. Nothing prevents the Aes Sedai from joining in all they like, with the exceptions of weaponcrafting and attacking with the One Power without feeling in danger first. If the Aes Sedai are capable of raising armies to fight each other, they're capable of joining any other fight too.

Four, you know that Aes Sedai fight against the Dark One and the Shadowspawn with all the Power they have.


Tell that to Manetheren or Malkier.

If the Aes Sedai are trusted because of the Oaths, it's by people that don't actually know Aes Sedai, or simply want to believe in them for other reasons as well. People that know individual Aes Sedai are going to trust them or not for the same reasons they trust or don't trust anyone else.

The most disturbing thing to me would be if there are Aes Sedai that actually believe the Oaths are sufficient to enforce a code of integrity.
JohnY62
113. ValMar
@Wetlander & HArai

I believe that what both of you say has some truth to it but just further on the opposite ends of a scale than how things are in practice.

re 1st Oath- I am sure Randlanders are not aware how AS may rationalise lies and say them outloud, so this is not an issue, HArai. But it is really telling that unless an AS says something straight people assume she's twisting her words, Wetlander.

re 2nd Oath- indeed, for example Faile's reaction right after Rand & co return to Cairhien. She's an educated noble from a powerful house in an AS friendly state. And she is aware how dangerous AS can be and how far they can go to achieve their goals. After all we have seen a few AS talk about arranging accidents.
But these are things that many non chanelers can do as well. AS are not abusing their Power, directly.

re 3rd Oath- AS joining sides in conflicts among nations. This simply doesn't happen. In fact due to their general view on war and in attempt to keep the peace for the common good the WT has acted to limit armed conflict among the nations. Trying to prevent wars, mediating, or halt wars.

It has been a pet theory of mine why the military in Randland is so underdeveloped (in every way) compared to the development and size of nations. From what we know wars have been reduced to some border skirmishing and fighting. None of the existing nations have won or lost territory due to war with a neighbour, that we know of.
In the last 1000 years WT efforts has meant that military science has regressed. Which is not a bad thing, except for the Seancgan and TG.

Sorry if I rambled too much.
Marcus W
114. toryx
Wetlandernw @ 62:

Nicola & Ariena Warder-bond... I think it's a little unlikely, since Nicola shouldn't have had an opportunity to see how the weave is created. Then again, we don't know that she didn't, so it's possible. I don't think she's quite precocious enough to figure it out on her own. Maybe she coerced it out of Myrelle.

I'm not very fond of crazy theories but this is one that I think has merit. Given that the girls were blackmailing Myrelle and Nisao so efficiently, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the first thing Nicola and Ariena asked for was the Warder bonding weave. There certainly are several suggestive clues that pop up later in the texts.

As for the continued Oath Rod discussions: I think Wetlandernw is right that it helps to look at the issue from the perspective of the characters. But that's what makes it difficult for me to comprehend Egwene's change of perspective.

While on the one hand she has always been fascinated by Aes Sedai and the One Power, she did come from a village where Aes Sedai were feared and untrusted despite the Oath Rod. She's witnessed first hand how reliable the first oath is. She's traveled enough to see just how effective that oath has been in placating non-channelers.

After experiencing all that fear and distrust, I just can't comprehend what would make her come to the conclusion that the world depends on the Aes Sedai sticking to that oath. It's one thing when being used to discern the BA. It's another thing when it comes to dealing with the world at large. Egwene more than anyone should realize the full ramification of the issue but it seems as though she's completely ignoring her experience in favor of Siuan's incomplete arguments.

That's what I see, at least, when looking at the issue from an in character perspective.
Rob Munnelly
115. RobMRobM
Leigh - please stop drinking hurricanes to celebrate the Saints' win and get the new post in.

Torie/Pablo - please stop drinking long island ice teas to celebrate the Jets' win and get the new post edited and posted.

Thanks to all. Rob

p.s. *twitch*
Matthew Smith
116. blocksmith
Going back a ways....

AbEnd@18

Not sure if you are paraphrasing or quoting someone, but certainly the term "bitches" when applied in almost any human context is derogatory.

I can say personally, I applaud when any so deserving character gets their respective comeuppance. This applause is however blind to race, gender, religion, etc. both in real life and in the story. Duplicitous Pond Scum (a term coined by a Boston Sports writer) however usually take the form of politicians and I don't want to go down that road, but I take particular delight when their hypocritical behaviors are revealed.

Wetlandernw

I share your difficult life decisions concerning your son. As a parent with a child that suffers from a chronic genetic-linked condition (immune deficiency), I understand you are faced with many difficult decisions on what is best for them...for now and their future. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

On football...

Quick, someone help Norv Turner, he must have swallowed something wrong and is in danger of...too late.

I heard Wade Phillips will be doing some public service clips...the dangers of sleepwalking and how to coach football while comatose.

I can't believe my only options are to root for the Saints (only team I remotely like left) and the Jets (if they make the SB, Pats go up a spot in draft order). Oh the pain.

Final serious note...

In these trying economic times, I would encourage everyone who can to contribute what they can to disaster relief in Haiti...if you can't, give your families/friends a hug and be thankful for what you have.

Essayons
Rob Munnelly
117. RobMRobM
116 - As Wet already knows, I'm in the same position with my 12 year old son. Great kid but he (and we) have challenges and tough decisions to face. Rob

P.s. Also in the same position with you on football issues. Thank goodness I'm busy next weekend and don't have to watch TV. It will be hard enough dealing this week with one of my CT based co workers, who is a Jets season ticket holder and active (happy) fan, and with some of my other professional contacts, who are both active Jets fans and Patriots haters.

P.p.s. Going to be a tough week, filled with both good and bad things. Huge work thing happening on Wednesday that will soak up most of my work time but (1) father of my brother in law just died; (2) wife of a good friend just died; and (3) my father is getting remarried on Friday.
Matthew Smith
118. blocksmith
RobM^2@117

Yes...that is a difficult week. And I thought mine was going to be tough...no comparison. Clearly, children are our greatest treasures else their health, self-respect, and happiness would not be our primary goals as parents. My thoughts and prayers go out to you and yours as well.

On a bright note...there is an election tomorrow and regardless of your political stance, I'm just glad to see interest. An interesting change of pace to see at least one candidate that waited to the last minute to go negative where the alternative candidate went sewer diving last month.

Moral of the story...don't believe any, and I mean any, political adverts.
Rob Munnelly
119. RobMRobM
Block - must say I will be happy to be freed from repeated calls from one of the other of the candidates trying to test market ideas or solicit our votes. Almost would say there is too much interest but that would be a bit undemocratic and unwarranted.

P.s. I actually went to college with the Repub candidate - didn't know him personally but I recalled him from his time on the college basketball team and, later, as the winner of a modelling contest to pose nude in Cosmo (if you can believe that). Of course, now he gets cool points for his daughter Ayla making the top 12 on America Idol a few years ago.
James Jones
120. jamesedjones
118 blocksmith
Moral of the story...don't believe any, and I mean any, political adverts.
...or promises, or commitments, or stances, or positions, or loyalties, or beliefs, or...

If only we could create a real life oath rod that would be used on politicians for their term in office.
Tricia Irish
121. Tektonica
Wet, Block, Rob:

My prayers for all of you. There is no love or worry like that of a parent. While my own issues were not on par with yours, I know the concern never stops. My daughter went through a "difficult" period between 14-20, but thank god, she pulled out of that nose dive. (I still hold my breath, waiting for another shoe to drop.) Sounds like your kids have wonderful caring parents to love and care for them.

Rob, your week sound unbelievable. What an emotional roller coaster. Good luck to you! Breathe.

As for FB. None of my faves are left either, but I am happy for Favre. Nice to see an old geezer showing the young 'uns how to do it. Just hoping for good games.

**twitch twitch**
Matthew Smith
122. blocksmith
Perspective on your situation is always best refreshed by a visit to your local children's cancer hospital or similar institution, sobering and tearful they are and the hugs are always a little tighter thereafter. Another entirely worthy cause for anyone's charity. The doctors, nurses, and staff at such places are truly doing God's work.

JEJ-

Thanks...can't have left out those.

Robm^2

Following a wrestling tournament this weekend, my family and some others retired to a friend's house to watch the Cowboys get shellacked. About half way through the first quarter one of the guys suggested we take a drink every time one of the ads came on...by mutual agreement, we rejected this idea as we realized we would have been over the top loaded before the half and unable to drive home. Yes, for those of you not in the Mass TV Market, there were that many ads.
Matthew Smith
123. blocksmith
And to Leigh...sorry for going a little sideways there...will try to keep things on track better.

Essayons (yes, repititive but appropriate, nonetheless).
Leigh Butler
124. leighdb
Hey everyone,

Regrettably, there will be no post today.

My home computer was divebombed Saturday by the ugliest virus I've ever seen in my life, and until I can get it fixed, the computer is essentially unusable. So I got no work done at all this weekend.

I plan to get the Friday post up as usual. Sorry.
TW Grace
125. TWGrace
Saturday ...hmmm.

I bet it was those folks from Arizona getting even.
T C
126. Freelancer
Football first, WoT second...

I feel bad for Nate Kaeding, he really is one of the best placekickers in the NFL. Bad time to have a bad day.

Sanchez manned up and played playoff-level QB, got exceptional protection from his line, and hit his receivers like Warner didn't on Saturday. The Jets defense covered a great receiving corp while regularly blitzing Rivers, and bottled up Tomlinson completely. The Chargers did not play a very bad game (other than dumb penalties), but the Jets played way over their heads and earned the victory. This is the history of San Diego pro sports. No rings.

Colts? Saints? Jets? No. Favre. Old age and treachery will win. Get used to the idea now, and it won't be such a shock.

Now to WoT

Oath Rod. I am almost reflexively opposed to the theory that Halima is causing Egwene's reversal regarding the Oath Rod. Why? Because it involves Compulsion, and if Halima was using Compulsion on Egwene, there are a great many issues that would come before the Oath Rod as something on which to make Egwene do an about-face.

This is simply an example of Egwene's completely consistent tendency to totally immerse into whatever culture she finds herself. It is absolutely in character for her to shift her perspective to seeing things as the Aes Sedai have traditionally seen them. Her views moved to align with the Wise Ones, and the Aiel in general, while she was among them. She instantly empathized with the Travelling People's dogma when among them for but a few days. It is her nature. So there's no reason to ignore Occam, and hunt for a more complex explanation of her actions than a behavioral pattern which has been very well established and repeated.
JohnY62
127. witchking9
Wetlandernw (96): If interested, look into NACD (http://nacd.org/). My daughter has done really well with it, already surpassing expectations.
R B
128. MasterAlThor
This will have to be quick, cause I got a meeting to go to.

Wetlandernw....

Like with Freelancer, I don't disagree with you too much. Not enough room to poke holes in what you are saying. But today happens to be my lucky day.

Wait, just went back and read what you said again. No holes again. Drat, drat and double drat.

Oh well maybe nest time.

Isilel...

You also are very solid in your arguements for or against whatever position that you hold. Much respect is given to your views. I personally always read them.

But I have to disagree with this...

Naturally, everybody resorting to somewhat dubious means out of necessity should take care that they don't go too far down that road. But oath of fealty is hardly a gross abuse.
In fact, Rand has been demanding them right and left under implicit threats.
Yes, sure he needs to make the world ready for TG, but so does Egwene need to do with the WT. Yet somehow Rand gets a pass, but Egwene is considered power-hungry! Doesn't compute.



Rand and Egwene can't really be compared on the basis of what each has gone through to get where they are.

Example. Rand was not chosen by the people of the world to be the DR. Egwene was set up as a figurehead.

Rand by nature of the inherent prejudice of being the Dragon Reborn is going to face resistance everywhere from everyone. Not so with Egwene.

Now understand that I am not saying that Egwene's job is not important. It is and it is very important to Rand and Team Light winning the Last Battle. What I am trying to say is that I don't see how Egwene should get a pass on what she is doing when it is clearly wrong. It won't matter if she releases them from their oaths cause she shouldn't have accepted them in the first place.

Is this your thought or someone elses???

Re: Rand and the SAS, I fail to see how him being hurt by the TAS faction gave him any justification. That's like saying that he should have punished other Aiel for Shaido's transgressions with the rationale that they are all Aiel, after all ;).


I think that Rand's treatment of all AS is justified. Seeing as how they all have tried to control him since day one. Tek says it better. See post 100.

If that is that is not your thought then please point me to the offendee, as I have words for them.

In other news...

I am offically retiring from picking football winners and losers since I seem to have a nice streak going picking losers. Get out while your behind I always say.

Congrats to Saints, Colts, Jets and Vikings.

And Wetlander is in Washington St., I do not remember who is in Minn. Maybe it's Lannis or Wind.
R B
130. MasterAlThor
Our computers need to be able to weave a shield of spirit or weave balefire to protect themselves form viruses.

Who's with me???
JohnY62
131. AndrewB
Leigh@124

Bela strikes again.

Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
Matthew Smith
132. blocksmith
Viruses...nasty things be they disturbing to organic beings or electronic devices.

Torie

Just a question...and, if possible, I would be interested in a response to this question (though you may not control advertising on TOR websites). Is it ok to comment on politics when the TOR page has a political ad at the top? Really just asking, not trying get in trouble.

Back to WOT...

On Egwene reversal...Freelancer offers an interesting perspective as to Eg being influenced by the environment within which she is operating at the time. I guess this idea ties in with that concept. My thoughts were that her reversal was in large part due to two things...one, that realization of the BA so completely infiltrating the WT caused her to then rely on the oaths (and the subsequent re-application thereof) as a means to weed out the BA. IMHO, something she thought of in her captivity prior to actually using it. And secondly, an epiphany that Eg had. Even though the oaths are not perfect...we are all aware of the wiggle room...they provide a means for the WT to provide examples of self-imposed controls on their power to the various rulers.
Thomas Keith
133. insectoid
Leigh @124: ::Gasp!::

Time to listen to the gusts of wind buffet the house (and hope the power doesn't go out), and listen to the rain, whenever it gets here. Batten down the hatches, Free! :)

AndrewB @131: So, Bela is a virus now? ;) I think Leigh just needs better antivirus software, or something. Wish I could help more, but I'm on the wrong coast...

*twitch*

Bzzz™.
T C
134. Freelancer
I have friends who call me to "disinfect" their computers from time to time. Most have one or two software firewalls, brandname anti-virus/anti-adware programs, and strict parental controls. Yet the garbage gets in. I use freeware firewall and anti-adware programs (haven't used an antivirus for 3 years), and never get infected. It's almost always emailed links that get people.

Here are some steps to avoid trouble.

~ Create a free email account that you will only access through webmail (never from Outlook, Lotus Notes, etc), and set all the strongest controls in the webmail configuration. (I even have one where EVERYTHING goes to the online junkmail folder, so that the webmail handler's best filters are active.) This becomes the email address for registering on new sites that you aren't familiar with. There is no known connection between this email address and your computer, so it can't be phished for your IP or other usable data.

~ On your PC's browser controls, under Privacy Options/Advanced, select Override automatic cookie handling. Under First Party Cookies, select Prompt. Under Third Party Cookies, select Block. Check the box to Allow Session Cookies. This will make you confirm cookie allowance on sites, which you might find tedious, but it's better than trying to clean a tough virus out of a system.

~ Also in Privacy Options/Sites, enter the base url for the webmail site (i.e. http://www.hotmail.com) and select Block to prevent that mail handler from saving cookies to your computer.

~ Do not download files or initiate applications from links received at your webmail address unless it is from a source you trust. This shouldn't be an issue, because once you've decided to trust a site you should update the email address in that profile. This way, the only links you should ever act on from this webmail account are those to confirm registration to a site.

~ Never open an email in this account from an address that you don't recognize. It was most likely sent from a system that buys email addresses from another site on which you registered.

~ Never allow your browser to store passwords.

~ Before anyone gloats about no viruses because they have a Mac, we all accept life's little tradeoffs. ;-)


The black hats will always work harder. The white hats need to work smarter.
Marcus W
135. toryx
Freelancer @126:

That's an astute argument re: Egwene's semblance of flip-flopping. Very good points indeed.

The question that remains for me is, does Egwene's tendency to assimilate within whatever culture she happens to be in a good thing, a bad thing, or somewhere in between?

It makes sense for the culture, of course, but sometimes it seems to me that you need to know where you stand regardless of where...you're presently...standing.

It's been a long day. My logic may be exceptionally weak.
Vincent Lane
136. Aegnor
Don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but word is that ToM is moving out to spring 2011, and MoL is moving out to earliest Nov 2012.

Edit: Note, this hasn't been officially announced yet, but was mentioned by Sanderson's assistant. Sanderson is supposed to make a blog post on it in the next couple days.
Sheila McEvoy
137. SuffatheDamane
Tektonica@100

"As for justifying Rand's use of oaths of fealty....he not only was abused by the TAS terribly, he has been pushed and prodded and pulled by every AS he's encountered since day one."

See, this is what I don't get -

The TAS capture Rand and torture him and Rand takes it out on the SAS.

I mean, I can see breaking Elaida's faction (which he did, by subjecting them to the Maoist techniques of the Aiel) as justified if not not exactlty heartwarming, but I can't see how subjecting the SAS, the other faction, to those oaths under the threat of bodily harm is at all justified. They didn't do *anything* to him.

(well, Alanna did, but did Rand know that she was in that camp when he subjugated them under threat of violence? I don't think so).

Not that I endorse Egwene's methods either, but the sisters that she codswolloped into fealty to her were all hoisted by their own individual petards. Each them did something a little hinky/devious/unsavory and thus put themselves in a position where they could either take their punishments from the sisterhood at large, or Egwene can look the other way so long as they swear to follow her lead and not do stoopid again. That is nowhere near as atrocious of ordering them to kneel or they will be knelt. For the conduct of others, no less.

And lastly, he certainly had the option of just sending all of the SAS away and making sure that the Asha'man and Aiel enforce that edict. Instead he forces them all into servitude. Gee, like thanks for the recue attempt, ladies.
Jack Diamond
138. violetdancer
Wet and Toryx re: Nicola and Areina

I just read that part where they are watching Lan practice the sword. The way RJ wrote this, with those two mirroring each other's reactions, makes a warder bond between them certainly possible. And those blackmailing sneaks could have got it from Myrelle.

Free@126

I dont think Halima's using Compulsion on Egwene. She's making "suggestions" in Egwene's dreams, which is almost as binding (recall Nynaeve's bad taste from lying). We are not told what Halima suggests. It could be about the oath rod reversal or not.

Blocksmith@132

Egwene's epiphany could have come from Halima, or not.

Oh and Rand's mistreatment of the SAS? I think his time in the box erased his trust in AS, any AS. He's still a kid and lashing out. The SAS made things worse for themselves by seeming to support what Alanna did to him.
Sam Mickel
139. Samadai
Suffathedamane,

There is a whole rehashing of that subject over on the last Lord of Chaos post.

Rand tells the SAS to kneel to be on the same footing as the TAS. Then Taim tells them Kneel or you will be knelt. So they kneel. Rand never asked them to swear fealty to them or anyone. However, his being Ta'veren made them swear to Rand as that is something they would have considered doing one in a whatever number of times
Sam Mickel
140. Samadai
Also, Alanna was there at Dumai's Well, and right with the rest of the AS in front of Rand
Roger Powell
141. forkroot
TWGrace@125
Saturday ...hmmm.

I bet it was those folks from Arizona getting even.
Speaking for this guy from Arizona: Cardinals achieved "par" (i.e. what I predicted at start of season) 10-6 and 1 playoff win. That's actually a pretty good season, especially when compared to the years of mediocrity pre-Whisenhunt.

Saints are a better team. I will now cheerfully root for them as it would be a great thing for New Orleans if Saints could go all the way.

Our off-season entertainment here in AZ will be finding out if the Bidwills have truly changed their MO given the revenue streams from the new stadium. If they screw around and don't re-sign John Lott (strength and conditioning coach) that will be the canary in the coal mine telling me that they'll lose Whisenhunt when his contract runs out.

--
SuffatheDamane@137
See, this is what I don't get -

The TAS capture Rand and torture him and Rand takes it out on the SAS.
Recall that Rand had set a limit on how many from the SAS could approach him. They blatantly ignored that limit. Rand explained to them that because of that, they would be treated like the captured TAS (put under guard by the Wise Ones). The whole fealty business was ta'veren work.

EDIT: Samadai said it better while I was still composing. (Hi Sam! Sorry 'bout that Rose Bowl.)
Sam Mickel
142. Samadai
Forkroot, thanks, maybe next year. Sorry about the Holiday bowl for you. But they were both good games
JohnY62
143. alreadymadwithmoresisters
Yes. Negotiations broke down in Caemlyn when the Aes Sedai numbers reached 13, so Rand retreated to Cairhien leaving a request to bring no more than 6. This request was ignored. Thus Rand was entitled to however amount of indignation or penalty he meted out on the Salidar embassy.
Kiruna and co. brought half again as many sisters as Rand requested. Who knows what they were planning with more than the required number of sisters? It's the Aes Sedai equivalent of bringing guns to a peace conference. Take note that Rand had just gotten out of a situation that came about because those he was meeting with brought more than the agreed upon number of sisters.
Bill Stusser
144. billiam
Sorry if someone already said this, I didn't have time to read all the posts. I think the reason why Mo had to pass Lan's bond off to Myrelle was that she needed Lan to think she was dead. If Lan knew she was alive and trapped in finland he would have tried to go after her to save her and we all know that that would be bad. Of all the possible futures she saw the only one that had any chance of success was for Mat, Thom and one other who wasn't Lan (and only those three) to come to her rescue.
As to why Lan's bond hasn't been passed on to Ny yet, maybe its so Ny won't go all crazy sad at the wrong time when Lan dies? I hope I'm wrong but I don't see Lan (or Rand for that matter) living thru the last battle.
Tricia Irish
145. Tektonica
Sam and Forkroot and AMWMS: Thanks for the recap on the reasons Rand got fealty from the SAS. He didn't coerce anyone. Ta'Varen indeed!

Billiam@144: There is a lengthy discussion on the Bond passing up front on this thread. Mo passed to Myrelle for a number of reasons; Myrelle has a history of saving Warders. Nynaeve wasn't AS yet when Mo went to Finnland, among them. She really cared for Lan and wanted him alive to fight the DO.
She did provide for the passing on to Nyn when appropriate.

Egwene is a bit of a chameleon, as Free pointed out. I hope she is growing out of it, as witnessed by her new Awesomeness in tGS. It's part of growing up...trying on new ideas, seeing what works for you. But as she matures, I suspect Egs will formulate her own rules for a reconstituted Tower. Things will look very different after TG.
Luke M
146. lmelior
Nicola bonding Areina is definitely believable (they are certainly pillow friends), but I can't imagine that it would be important to the story in any way. The evidence is pretty convincing, though. It would help explain why Areina is even mentioned later on, even though Nicola is the only one actually doing stuff.

As a side note I had always imagined they were younger than Egwene, though a quick check of encyclopaedia-wot says otherwise.

@billiam #144
That's a good point about Lan possibly dying during TG, but I can't imagine RJ being able to do it. I'm still convinced that RJ just wanted to delay the inevitable to pile on the anticipation. I can definitely imagine BS killing him off, though.

@Free
~ Before anyone gloats about no viruses because they have a Mac, we all accept life's little tradeoffs. ;-)
Then I shall accept your implied invitation, as a Linux user, to gloat about both having as few viruses as a Mac and being cheaper than Windows, while having more control of my desktop than both. Little tradeoffs indeed. :)

Oh, and J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS!
Birgit
147. birgit
Has this become a football forum? Here in Europe we hardly know the rules of the game.

The woman couldn't channel a lick most of the time, not unless she was angry enough to chew rocks, and letting a non-channeling (most of the time) woman bond a warder is not something that would be within the realm of consideration by ANY Aes Sedai.

Except Elayne, who includes Min in their bond with Rand.

Egwene is a bit of a chameleon, as Free pointed out. I hope she is growing out of it, as witnessed by her new Awesomeness in tGS. It's part of growing up...trying on new ideas, seeing what works for you.

Ny and El adopt the fashion of the countries they visit, Eg adopts the culture.
David Platt
148. The Not So Dark One
Re: Oath Rod

I think as we are very unlikely to ever see the outcome of the oath road/ future of ash'a'man/ aes sedai thingy (book 42 - The Gathering United Channelers association? No? Okay.) The best we'll probably get is Egwene's thoughts regarding Aes Sedai being the hub with Knitting Circle/ Windfinders etc. being like a retirement/ territorial army kinda scenario. They may discuss it further but we'll never get too see the development/ teething problems that arise as this thing grows. That is...if they win the last battle, mwah ha ha ha ha...hmm, well yes.

Hmmm - I like slash/oblique a lot dont I?
craig thrift
149. gagecreedlives
Here in Australia birgit I think we understand even less. Seems an awful lot of padding to wear for a glorified game of rugby
Marcus W
150. toryx
birgit @ 147:

Has this become a football forum? Here in Europe we hardly know the rules of the game.

I sympathize. I was born and raised in the U.S. and I could care less than a fig about the topic myself. Fortunately, it's easy to just skim right past it.

Ny and El adopt the fashion of the countries they visit, Eg adopts the culture.

I think Egwene does more than adopt the culture. She takes on the opinions and prejudices of the culture and makes them her own as well. Whenever I travel I try to adopt the culture as much as I can too, so I can experience it more intimately (insasmuch as an outsider can do so) but I certainly don't go so far as Egwene does.

Again, the question of whether or not Egwene goes too far is another thing entirely.
Captain Hammer
151. Randalator
birgit @147

Has this become a football forum? Here in Europe we hardly know the rules of the game.

Speak for yourself. I'm looking forward to watching Superbowl XLIV...there's gonna be chips and beer aplenty, lots of analyzing of plays and tactics and very little sleep that night. Woohoo...!
JohnY62
152. Lsana
@144 billiam (and others),

Moiraine did not pass Lan's bond because of Finnland or anything related to it. She told Lan about her decision to pass the bond back in book 2, long before she even knew about the existence of the Rhudiean rings, much less what they would show. She hadn't even been through the twisted door in Tear and gotten the answers there. Her decision was not based on any special knowledge of the future or what "must" happen.

Just wanted to remind everyone of that, since I've seen a lot of posts that seem to forget it.
Tricia Irish
153. Tektonica
Lsana@152:

Always good to keep that in mind. I think Mo and Lan had the "big discussion" at Vandene and Sister's house when she was doing research on the Prophecies, IIRC. (After the EoTW)

She passed the bond because they have been together for 20+ years, and truly care for each other. She knows he is a dangerous man, and is committed to fighting the DO in the Blight for his (now defunct) country. She wants him to stay alive for that purpose, should something happen to her.

Didn't Lan and Nyn kind of fall for each other in Fal Dara on the way to the Eye? So Mo knows Lan has a chance at real love, too. She is a good woman and wants Lan to live and fight for the Light, and have a life too, if he can, no matter what happens to her.
David Platt
154. The Not So Dark One
Think the Lan and Nyn thing started way back when she tracked them down, then helped in the rescue from the Whitecloaks. Ah, Love at first fight.
Jeff Weston
155. JWezy
Why doesn't Rand trust the SAS? Why the heck should he? After all, it was one of their traveling companions who bonded him without consent.

A key theme of the series is lack of trust. The Aes Sedai (all of them) take the point of view that everybody should trust them just because they are AS, and they do nothing to earn it. It is no surprise (to me, at least) that they don't get it.

Even the SGs work very hard to acquire that AS attitude, as if that is what it is to be AS.

Oddly, the most approachable and open AS, the easiest to trust, is Verin, and we all know by now what that led to.
Captain Hammer
156. Randalator
JWezy @155

Why doesn't Rand trust the SAS? Why the heck should he? After all, it was one of their traveling companions who bonded him without consent.

Actually both Verin and Alanna were fence sitters who had been in Duopotamia during the White Tower schism. They had never declared allegiance to any of the two factions or did so post-bonding.

Oddly, the most approachable and open AS, the easiest to trust, is Verin, and we all know by now what that led to.

Oh yes, she's always been a bundle of fuzzy trustworthy joy. Apart from where she wasn't and nobody ever really trusted her... :)
Brian Vrolyk
157. vyskol
I don't think Lan was "raped". There is little indication or evidence pointing to such a conclusion. He is (was?) expecting to die, even wanted to die. He's filled with anger, remorse, guilt, self-loathing; I don't know how to go from here and not be vulgar or offensive but well... I don't think it's much of a stretch for him to welcome some frenzied, life-affirming, self-condemning, pleasure-seeking... sex.

And I believe Myrelle is described as being quite attractive?

Just sayin'.... ;)

She is olive-skinned and beautiful. She is almost as tall as Siuan. (NS,Ch3) She is darkly beautiful. Her face is a perfect oval. (TFoH,Ch26) She has large, dark eyes. (TFoH,Ch27) She is olive skinned. (ACoS,Ch11)


Yeah.. I don't think it's rape. Not that I'm accusing Lan of being unfaithful or superficial. But he is a man, reduced to animalistic emotions (vengeance, fury), with no desire (or at least expectation) to see Nynaeve again....
Brian Vrolyk
158. vyskol
@18 AbEnd,

If it'd been male Aes Sedai, I'd be saying, "Yay! Those as.holes got what they deserved!"

As.hole being a term generally used for men. Doesn't make me misandric though. They were as.holes/bitches and got what they deserved.

Maybe. Part of me cheers, part of me cringes at the line crossed.

And in regards to this scene, I don't have a problem with the oaths of fealty themselves as much as I do with Egwene's hypocrisy.
Brian Vrolyk
159. vyskol
@ 60. Samadai

Ha!

"Not that there's anything wrong with that." ;)
Debbie Solomon
160. dsolo
Thanks for the welcome, subwoofer.

I had another thought about the Mat/Tylin thing while reading through the posts. All 3 of the Two Rivers lads have been the object of unwanted attention by women (in Rand's case, multiple times). Berelain went after both Rand and Perrin, but it's interesting that tricky Mat is the only one who couldn't (or wouldn't) get himself out of the situation. Mat's discomfort with Tylin was her aggressive pursuit, not his lack of attraction to her. The Pattern wanted Mat in the palace, and close to Tylin, so that he could meet the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Tuon would never have gone to the Wandering Woman. Also, Mat being Tylin's "Toy" caused the Seanchan to underestimate him. Mat planned his escape while Tylin was gone to protect her, and he was genuinely fond of her (as their parting showed). Unfortunately for Tylin, there is no such thing as a safe ta'averen (sp?). After seeing Beslan's reaction to Tuon's offer in tGS, I wonder if she's not ta'averen or something equivalent.

re: Oath Rod - remember Romanda's reaction to eliminating the OR? That gave Eg another viewpoint to consider.

Also, one of the problems the AS have is that the WT is literally an ivory tower where they have separated themselves from the world. All three of the supergirls have now seen other cultures with channelers integrated into the culture and a completely independent group of channelers with their own self regulation. As Amyrlin, Egwene needs to assimilate all these lessons into a plan for the future. She knows what's at stake, and she's tired of the petty bickering among the AS. She is going to be one kick*ss Amyrlin. I can't wait until Egwene and Rand finally meet up again.

RJ seems to keep making the point that their are pros and cons to each culture. The Seanchan bring peace and order, but they chain women who can channel. He's also shown some of the Seanchan starting to question if they are 100% right (along with Rand, Gawyn, Perrin, etc - am I making the right choice?).
Kathy Keith
161. Babokathy
Birgit @ 147
Randalator @151

Bring on the Superbowl 44, with the chips, salsa, guacamole, pizza, Chex Mix and a keg of beer! We Chargers Fans will only be watching the commercials, with the sound muted for the game! Superbowl is mostly about the food and the commercials!

WOT: Why can't the Rebel AS just get over the fact that Moiraine passed Lan's bond to another? "Wow, what a neat idea! Let's all do this!" Seems like any AS with warders, would do them all the biggest favor by the time the Last Battle comes, to have such an arrangement, to preserve as many warders for defending the Light. Hmmm Especially since the AS are so determined to swear on the Oath Rod and being unable to defend themselves until those who will, channel right at them. Aes Sedai will have a distinct disadvantage in the End unless they severely amend their Oaths; or come up with a new way to blast the Shadow Sworn that fits inside the "fine print" of their oaths.
Jeff Weston
162. JWezy
Randaltor@156 - yeah, I know that Alanna was not SAS, but she came to Dumai's Wells with them, that being the critical moment. And that juxtaposition was certainly not going to earn them any trust points.

As for Verin, remember that we, the readers, get to see the Verinisms, but for the most part the characters do not. And the only way she appears trustworthy is by comparison to the other AS, who are for the most part people who I would go a long ways to avoid.

After all, even Egwene wanted to like her.
j p
163. sps49
gagecreedlives @149-

It's okay; we here don't understand Vegemite!
JohnY62
164. alreadymadwithcrazygames
Speaking of obscure games... does anybody outside of the Commonwealth actually understand how cricket is played?
David Platt
165. The Not So Dark One
Alreadymadwithchangingnames@164

There is a famous (in cricketing circles) explanation of the rules that runs as follows:

"You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.
Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out.
When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.
Sometimes you get men still in and not out.
When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.
There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.
When both sides have been in and all the men are out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!"

Hope it helps.
JohnY62
167. alreadymadwithcricket
That made absolutely no sense. Must be some historical or socio-cultural context I'm missing.

I think I'll stick with the ins and outs of the Wheel of Time, thank you very much. :P
JohnY62
168. AndrewB
I just reread the part of Leigh's summary of chapter 12. Am I the only one that thinks that Myrelle tried to have sex with Lan but that he did not sucumb to her womanly charms? At least that is how I have read that scene (regardless of how many times I have reread that scene).

Please explain why you all think Myrelle had sex with Lan. Thanks.

Since we have some time to kill this week while waiting for Leigh to post a new recap, I have a question. Anybody have any ideas on what each color's ajah means? In other words, why is the Yellow Ajah "yellow" instead of "red" (in our world, red is associated with healing -- the red cross).

Or did RJ have no ryme or reason for assigning colors for each Ajah?

(The only obvious color association I can see is black for the Black Ajah).

Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewB
Captain Hammer
169. Randalator
AndrewB @168

Please explain why you all think Myrelle had sex with Lan. Thanks.

Let's just say if you find yourself in bed with Myrelle it's gonna leave an impression...

She made herself meet his stare without flinching, but he only turned away again. There was a mark on his neck, a bruise. It might — just might — be a bite. Perhaps she should caution him, tell him he did not have to be too . . . detailed . . . in any explanations about himself and Myrelle. The thought made her blush. She tried not to see the bruise, but now she had noticed it, she could not seem to see anything else. Anyway, he would not be that foolish. You could not expect a man to be sensible, but even men were not that scatterbrained.
(ACoS, ch. 12)
T C
170. Freelancer
AndrewB@168

Actually, it seems much more strongly indicated that Myrelle used the bond to force Lan into her bed, believing as she does that such a physical act is part of the healing process for a warder whose sister has died.

Consider how Egwene thinks that Nynaeve better never find out about that part of Myrelle's treatment of Lan.

This is, in fact, where the rape accusation is coming from. And within WoT or without, believing that it is impossible for a female to rape a male who does not consent, is a mistaken belief.

PS: I see Randalator has that covered.


Regarding Ajah colors, I hardly think there is much that RJ did arbitrarily in the design of this world, this surely wouldn't be an exception.

Blue ~ Many have drawn parallels between the Blue Ajah and the Freemason Blue Lodge, whose charitable outreach certainly is aimed at causes. The Blue Lodge is known for it's extensive networking structure, and for it's focus.

White ~ How devoid of color "pure" logic is, stripped of emotion and abstract influences.

Red ~ My opinion here is that we are to immediately recognize danger from the Red Ajah, since our main hero is a male channeler, and they will surely be after him.

Gray ~ Mediators, negotiators, they share some with the White in their manners and methods, and to be effective in this role it is best if you are not readily identified with any particular faction (color).

Brown ~ With pigments, the blending of any two opposite hues results in brown. A mixture of knowledge from all sources, aware of the opinions of all, not necessarily favoring one over another, in the interest of recordkeeping, data gathering, and historical analysis.

Yellow ~ With red given to another Ajah, the next most sensible for Healers is the most benign and "light" of the primary colors, suggestive of calm and contentment, which are certainly restorative states.

Green ~ With the other primary colors assigned, this is the most reasonable for the "Battle Ajah" to have. The color of the field, a strong and aggressive color, the opposite of blood to perhaps suggest victory.

Well, that's the best I've got.
JohnY62
171. Boredwithrape&oathrods
Gray Ajah - Good thoughts on the colors, Freelancer. I'd add that the Gray as negotiators are often called upon to deal with subtleties, i.e. "gray areas."
craig thrift
172. gagecreedlives
sps49@163

Well let me help clarify it for you. Vegemite along with beer and boobies is proof that there is a god and that he/she loves me. And vegemite on toast is one of the greatest things ever for a hangover :)

The Not So Dark One@165

What a marvellous summary

And for AMW first you have to understand what a crumpet is (Go to about the 2:10 mark)
Barry T
173. blindillusion
AndrewB RE:~
(The only obvious color association I can see is black for the Black Ajah).

Oh? And why is that? Black is a neutral color, much like white.

As for it being representative of the Shadow...well...shadows are not black.

After all, sometimes the Good Guys wear black.

And I'm just having fun, of course =)
Brandon Wood
174. brad21088
@Alisonwonderland
Sexual arousal is not consent. Legally it's not, and morally, I don't think it is, either. What your body naturally responds to and what you actually want don't always match up. I am a man, so I do know. Have you ever heard of an "awkward boner?" You know, sitting in class and suddenly you're aroused? You don't want to be, you don't want to have sex with anyone at the moment, but it's just... there. While a woman raping a man isn't very common, it DOES happen, and I imagine it's just as degrading, heart-wrenching, and horrible as when it happens to a woman. Rape is rape, it sucks, and it's terrible. A woman who can channel is even more capable of rape than another woman: Myrelle could have, for all we know, held Lan down with the power, aroused him, then raped him. Because, again, AROUSAL IS NOT CONSENT. That's like a douchey frat guy saying it's a girl's fault for getting raped because she acted like she liked it. Well, maybe some of the sex act WAS arousing, but that doesn't make it okay.

Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest.
Thomas Keith
175. insectoid
This thread (and one or two topics in particular) will have been thoroughly beaten into the ground by the time Friday arrives.

::scans through:: Okay, so maybe it already has. ;)

Free @170: Nice analysis of the Ajahs!

*twitchity twitch*

Bzzz™.
Captain Hammer
176. Randalator
insectoid @175

This thread (and one or two topics in particular) will have been thoroughly beaten into the ground by the time Friday arrives.

::scans through:: Okay, so maybe it already has. ;)


Let's jump up and down on it repeatedly, anyway...
Birgit
177. birgit
A woman who can channel is even more capable of rape than another woman: Myrelle could have, for all we know, held Lan down with the power, aroused him, then raped him.

Does Myrelle know Semi's tricks? Semi killed Cabriana's Warder by stimulating his pleasure centers.
James Jones
178. jamesedjones
177 birgit
Does Myrelle know Semi's tricks?
She wouldn't need them. She's got Lan in her head. Every sensation he feels is right there for her manipulation. With that at her disposal, and the ability to control him with the power, she could do whatever she wanted with him. Nothing else required.
Marcus W
179. toryx
I'm not going to get involved with it in any detail, but I appreciate the comments from those who are disputing the argument that men can't be raped. Thanks, people.

I think it's fairly clear that Lan was physically involved with Myrelle, and even if it's been shown to have some effect on men in his condition, the whole thing makes me think less of her. I frankly don't think Lan cares one way or another; to him, he was already dead and there would have been no joy or pleasure for him in it.

Whether he was compelled by the warder bond or not, the whole thing pretty much grosses me out and I definitely do not approve of Myrelle's actions.
Kurt Lorey
180. Shimrod
@170 Freelancer.

I have to disagree with your color commentary.

I don't disagree with some of your perceptions of a couple of the colors, but I'll have to come back when I have time to discuss in detail.

In the meantime, what is more important, perception or reality (when it comes to color)?
Marcus W
181. toryx
shimrod @ 180:

Isn't color in, and of itself, purely perception? I know that I can take a group of people to an unusually colored house in Burlington Vermont, ask them to tell me what color it is, and they'll all give me different answers.

Then you go and examine the scientific explanation for what color is and it essentially boils down to perception.

Of course, once you start asking questions like that, you also end up with the unsettling discovery that when you get right down to it, everything is perception, which makes virtually every topic of conversation on these re-read posts completely meaningless.
JohnY62
182. ValMar
Re: Myrelle and Lan.

I think some are being a bit harsh on Myrelle here.
It does seem a bit dodgy her bedding him, but she's got the best reputation for saving warders, and does it with best intentions (the saving) and if sex is one of her methods, so what?

And where did this talk about her holding him down with the power and raping him came from? How's that helping Lan's emotional issues?
She probably used the warder link to induce him to have sex, which is dodgy if so happened, but the end justifies the means.

Myrelle is fairly decent person, as far as AS go in general. IMO she deseves the benefit of doubt in this case.
Roger Powell
183. forkroot
toryx@181
There is certainly a scientifically objective component to color in the sense that instruments can measure the light wavelength(s) being emitted (actually "reflected" in the case of an object like a house).

Of course once those wavelengths are sensed by our eyes and turned into neural signals in the brain, who is to say how our experiences and perceptions differ?

It reminds me of that old philosophical question: How do I know that you and I see "green" the same way? We both agree that something is "green" because we get the same sensations from "green" things that we learned were "green" as a child. But what if inside your brain you were actually seeing what I would have called "red"?
Of course, once you start asking questions like that, you also end up with the unsettling discovery that when you get right down to it, everything is perception, which makes virtually every topic of conversation on these re-read posts completely meaningless.
Can't agree with you there, other than conceding the usual "cosmic so-what?".

"Cosmic so-what?" was a term popular in my college days. It readily conceded that ANY argument, concern, etc. was essentially meaningless in the context of a universe of billions of galaxies and so forth. The readiness of the concession was matched by the subtler point that the conversation was relevant to the context of the immediate circumstances.

(I should note that monotheists such as I am now do not necessarily concede "Cosmic so-what?", but that is a discussion for a different day.)

So ... my point is that the topics of conversation are not completely meaningless, at least not to me and (I suspect) many others who participate in the forums.

For sure I find some threads more interesting and intellectually stimulating while I tend to skim others (and tune out the rare flamers). Nevertheless, reading a well-crafted post from someone like Freelancer, or Wetlandernw, or Master Al-Thor (just to name a few of my faves - there are quite a few others I could have named) is often intellectually stimulating. I derive value, and hence meaning from that experience.

Come to think of it .. I've enjoyed thinking about and responding to your post. Thus I dispute your imputed claim that the topic you just raised is necessarily meaningless(!), at least in the context of my sphere of interest.

In the words of Bomb #20: This is fun!
Sam Mickel
184. Samadai
Forkroot,

You could easily include yourself on your list.
Marcus W
185. toryx
forkroot @ 183:

You're right; it is fun, and given the number of posts I've committed to the forum and the great lengths upon which I often postulate (putting me in the upper 10's or 20's on both posts and words by last count, if I recall correctly) I'd hope that no one took my comment to mean that I literally believe our thoughts and postings are meaningless.

shimrod's comments simply amused me to the point where I became, I suspect, overly ironic. But it also reminds me of the common dilemna that pops up in these discussion: Take any argument, whittle it down to a particular passage in any book and you'll get people who swear that it means one thing, and people who will swear with equal passion that it means the other. The truth regarding Lews Therin is a perfect example of this.

Given that and a constant running "argument" my partner and I have as to whether our house is white or yellow, I couldn't help but throw up my hands in metaphorical glee before posting. Because really, it was only a matter of time before people started arguing about whether or not a shadow is black.
Captain Hammer
186. Randalator
forkroot @183

It reminds me of that old philosophical question: How do I know that you and I see "green" the same way? We both agree that something is "green" because we get the same sensations from "green" things that we learned were "green" as a child. But what if inside your brain you were actually seeing what I would have called "red"?

I once tried to explain that concept to my grandmother...almost broke her brain in the process...
Kurt Lorey
187. Shimrod
@181 toryx. ;)

Well, yes and no to your first comment.

Color, as a concrete concept can be specifically defined by its position along the visible (to us) portion of the spectrum.

Your example is descriptive. Everyone's language for colors is determined by breadth and depth of word knowledge. Just because one person might call a house carmine colored, and another person calls it carnelian doesn't necessarily mean that they "see" something differently. They simply possess different abilities when describing it. Color isn't subjective, we are subjective.

Most of us usually just prefer to conceptualize about color symbology following the colors perceived in a rainbow, for example.

Still, I imagine I "see" red differently from most everyone here, as I have a visual red-green color deficiency. I "see" all of the various reds as different shades and can describe them (so I'm not color blind), but am not sure if what I see is what you see, for example.

Mainly, I think I took exception to Freelancer's proposition that "white" isn't a color. White is a color. In fact, it is a reflection of all the colors. Think of what the White Ajah might be in that light as a point of discussion.

Oh, and your house is not white or yellow. It is white or yellowed. Another one of those pesky word thingies. For some reason, the first component of "white" paint to degrade is the part that reflects yellow light. Hence, as it ages, it yellows.

For my part, my comments towards Free were meant to be humorous tweaking during an otherwise long week.
David Platt
188. The Not So Dark One
Gagecreed @172

Yeah, unfortunatley I spend more time out than in it seems but thems the breaks. Just looking at flights to your part of the world for next winters/ your summers festivities. With all our boys rested from not having played Bangladesh your boys obviously dont stand a chance......;-)
Sam Mickel
189. Samadai
To all,

I believe that our speculating on the speculation of our other speculators leads to greater speculation of that which was speculated on in the first speculation. By encouraging such speculation, we can broaden the horizon of our speculators which can in turn lead to more positive speculation on that speculation that was first speculated. However, some lines of speculation lead to negative speculation which can turn some speculators into non-speculators. This leads back to less speculation of the first speculation, and the desire to flame the negative speculator for what they were speculating about the original speculation.
Hope you all enjoy my speculation on the speculating of our talented speculators here on these posts.
S A M ™

Now have I made you all tired of that particular word or what?
Kurt Lorey
190. Shimrod
@189 Samadai.

Your last comment is pure speculation on your part.
David Platt
191. The Not So Dark One
Samadai @189 -

Is that how the credit crunch happened? just speculating of course
Roger Powell
192. forkroot
Shimrod, you reminded me of an interesting incident some years ago. My small business had landed a big contract that involved a large install of computer hardware -- so large that it was "all hands on deck" one evening at the customer site.

One of my top programmers was there helping out. He was trying to connect a CRT display to a PC, using an RGB component video cable.

It wasn't until I saw him staring helplessly at the cable and the back of the monitor that I realized he was completely unable to differentiate between the green and blue wires.

So I know for a fact that he perceives the world of color differently than I do.
James Jones
193. jamesedjones
187 Shimrod
Mainly, I think I took exception to Freelancer's proposition that "white" isn't a color. White is a color. In fact, it is a reflection of all the colors.
He works in optics. This is not the same as what many of us learned in high school. College level optics is a fearsome beast. Don't poke it. ;)
sandi vogel
194. sinfulcashew
Hello All (old and new)
It's been a hellalong time since I've been here.
My PC fell off the edge of my world the 3rd of Nov. and I got a 'new' (used) PC from my pc-savvy son.
It has 7, pretty cool once you get some of the small glitches figured out.
like EPD. (I think it is D) Took a long time with that one.
I just happened to come by today and lo and behold, I find that the reread is EXACTLY where I just put my book down to get on here. Coincidence? Or Fate? haha

The Lan-Myrelle thingy always kind of puzzled me.
Did they 'do it' or not? I wanted to think not. So I am prudish and believe in that love keeps it all in! The 'purity of love' or something like that.
The hickey Lan is sporting kind of points to some other activity, but it doesn't mean he was participating. She may have been embarrased because her feminine wiles didn't work.??????

Also I am wondering why Eggy is so taken with Halima? Did Halima use some power on her? Even though I just read it, I will need someone else to point out the obvious (to everyone but me).
AS cannot tell when a male is using the Power, right?

Well, that's all for now as I will go read some more.
And crochet more Barbie clothes.
Kurt Lorey
195. Shimrod
@193 jamesedjones

That's part of the reason why the tweaking was unavoidable. lol

Besides, one would think that he would welcome an oportunity to discuss cool science stuff. ;)
JohnY62
196. Rand Al'Todd
RE: the three oaths

The devil is in the details. Look at Asimov's Three Laws. The entire Robot series was based on how difficult those "simple" words/concepts are to apply in reality. The Three Oaths are similar.
I think it has been well established that Ishy interfered with the AS and WT in order to undermine them.

I cannot help but believe that use of the Oath Rod and three oaths were part of that interference. (Some of the gurus may be able to point out that this is not possible based on when the practice of using the oaths began versus when he was in or out of confinement, but...)

If the AS are, in fact, well intentioned people of integrity working to fight the Dark, then the oath rod should not be needed. The word of the trustworthy does not need artificial enforcement, and the word of the untrustworthy, as we have seen, is worthless, since they will twist their oaths to suit their own ends as we see throughout the series. As a result, we have seen that the AS did not achieve their goal of gaining trust of the public or of political leaders (as others have stated here).

As we see in tGS, the actual words of the oaths use poor logic and contain too many loopholes. So the reswearing failed in its goal/intent. At the least, Egwene should have all of the oaths rethought and reworded.

The life span effect weakens the Light by causing them to die early, reducing the number of pro-light AS alive at any one time to resist the Dark. This alone would have been sufficient cause for Ishy to want the rod used.

IMHO, the use of the rod should be abandoned. But MHO does not count. RJ’s O is what counts. It will be interesting to RAFO if he expressed an actual outcome on this issue
sandi vogel
197. sinfulcashew
Just visited the 'Bomb #20" site.
Hilarious!
At least it wasn't an R R!
Hopefully no one is still doing that?
Roger Powell
198. forkroot
sinlesspecan@197
At least it wasn't an R R!
Hopefully no one is still doing that?
Your chances of being rickrolled vary with the poster. Click on an R.Fife or jamesedjones link at your own risk.
I, on the other hand, never insert rickrolls. I have been known to mess with screen names when quoting though ;-)
T C
199. Freelancer
Shimrod,

Are you certain you wish to pull that cork? There be monsters that way.

My usage of the phrase "How deviod of color" was not speaking directly to white itself but the emotionless thinking and behavior of one esconced in "pure" logic. Spock would most certainly be White. However, given the connection which the simile implied, I will respond to your prima facie point.

In order for your counter-argument to have merit there must be agreement on whether light or pigment is being discussed. Since the composition and perceptive interactions are different. Also, your statement that "White is a color", even in terms of light, is flawed. Indeed, "white" light is merely a broad-spectrum energy including enough varying wavelengths to subsume all individual hues into a blended uniformity, which absolutely is not a color. Nor, in the end result, is it multiple colors. It is a non-color which is composed of many colors.

At this point we must begin to discuss your question, which is more important, perception or reality? It might be of value to add the element of unfounded presumption or belief alongside perception. For example, movies are very fond of portraying "infrared" lasers as having a red beam. However, the term itself means "below red", as the wavelengths involved are too large to be within the visible spectrum. A common IR wavelength is 1064nm as produced by a neodymium-doped Yttrium Aluminum Garnet (nd-YAG) solid state ruby laser. It's beam is invisible to unaided sight. But we come to "believe" that infrared is red.

Now on the issue of perception. When we look at something which is starkly, purely white, there are universal responses, and there are culturally or environmentally generated responses. Universally a sense of cleanliness, of purity on varying levels, and most likely of emptiness are percieved. These perceptions align quite closely with the relative conduct and manner of the White Ajah, making white decidedly apropros as a chosen marker.

That's all I really meant.
T C
200. Freelancer
Oh, BTW...

Sinfulcashew, welcome back! Ignore spoonpetal@198, and enjoy the resuming madness. It will be wonderful to have your commentary once again.
Kurt Lorey
202. Shimrod
@199 Freelancer

Thanks for playing. I can always count on you to keep me on my toes, or teach me something new from a different perspective.

I understand your comparative use of perception to be descriptive about the White Ajah. I was trying to point out that (in my opinion) it might be somewhat confusing. Now, I more clearly understand your point.

I do still have one more question regarding your argument that a many-coloured light is a non-colour. It seems to me that calling something many-coloured a non-colour is a little counter-intuitive, for me. At what point does multi-coloured become non-colour? I would think that strictly by your definition that nothing beyond the primary colours could be considered a colour. Or is dual-coloured light OK, but triple-coloured not. Or, is every combination except all-coloured OK to be classed as coloured? Or, is white just a special case?

And, I really didn't get whether you answered about perception and reality, or not. You mentioned cultural responses which brings to mind that the Japanese relate the colour white to death in some instances (white flowers, IIRC). So, I wonder if colors that stimulate responses aren't necessarily "universal", just that most of us here have the same general cultural perceptions?
Birgit
203. birgit
Also I am wondering why Eggy is so taken with Halima? Did Halima use some power on her?

Halima causes Eg's headaches with the OP and then "cures" them with her massages because that allows her to mess with Eg's mind.

"Think on looseness," Halima said softly. "Your face is loose. Your neck is loose. Your shoulders..." Her voice was almost hypnotic, a drone that seemed to caress each part of Egwene's body she wanted to relax.

ACoS ch. 12

Accepted train twisting the truth before they become AS:

She felt a measure of satisfaction at that. It was the sort of reply a full sister might have given when she did not want to answer a question. Accepted practiced the Aes Sedai way of speaking against the day they gained the shawl, but the only ones to practice on safely were the novices. Some tried it with the servants, for a little while, but that only got them laughed at.

NS ch. 2
craig thrift
204. gagecreedlives
birgit@177

I don’t think so. I think Myrelle is using more traditional methods in stimulating his pleasure centres.

And Im not really sure why everyone is getting so worked up in Myrelle shagging the guts out of Lan. There is a possibility that she used the power to bed him but unless it ever gets stated I choose to believe that she used the normal coercion a woman does to get a man into bed. Lan is many things but a monk he is not. Besides if anyone should be upset it should be her warder husbands. How are they gonna compete with Lan.

The Not So Dark One@188

Would that be a leg break? (that is probably the worst pun ever!!!!)

Coming here this summer? That sounds positively barmy

But if you could be a good chap and pack those ashes and bring them back it will be most appreciated. I think Punter was pretty filthy that he left those behind.

Samadai@189

Lol

jamesedjones@193

“College level optics is a fearsome beast”

I wore optics in college does that count?
Barry T
205. blindillusion
Samadai RE:~ Speculation

Isn't speculation fun?

~

In regards to perception vs. reality…wouldn’t one’s perception be their reality and as such only exist at the individual level, albeit trapped within the confines of the human vocabulary?

After all, pigeonholing perception and reality into universal terms is much like asking, “What is the meaning of life?” It’s quite simple, really. There is no universal meaning to life because we all live our lives differently. Unless one would like to say the ultimate “meaning” to life is, “Live it to the fullest.”
Marcus W
207. toryx
blindillusion @ 205:

Unless one would like to say the ultimate “meaning” to life is, “Live it to the fullest.”

And of course, even by that statement, it's purely subjective according to the individual. One person's definition of living life to the fullest is another person's living nightmare.

I love that I'm having this conversation with someone whose handle includes "illusion."
Barry T
209. blindillusion
206 jamesedjones

7½ million

sigh

toryx @ 207

Exactly.
Rob Munnelly
210. RobMRobM
181. Toryx - are you located in Burlington? What's up with the misadventures of the City-owned cable company? Rob
Marcus W
211. toryx
Rob @ 210:

Actually, I live on the other side of the state. I just used Burlington as an example of a place with very unusually painted houses that frequently excite comment (and argument). Which cable company is that?
Rob Munnelly
212. RobMRobM
City cable co (Burlington Telecom) is a big mess. Massive violations of its cable franchise. Front page stories re what to do about it. I have a rooting interest from my base in Boston and am following it closely.

R

p.s. Roughly, where area are you in? Bennington? White River Junction. Just curious.
Tricia Irish
213. Tektonica
Various:Re: Colors

I'm thoroughly loving the physics and philosophy lessons today! Thanks brainiacs! I feel like I've forgotten everything I ever learned in college. Geez.
Who needs school when we have this thread?

I'm going to put my graphic designer hat on now for a minute. (One I wore in day of yore for many years.) Let's get out the Pantone color chart so we can all talk about the same color! That's what printers have to do. Make's communication simple! Pantone

Edit: Hope this link works....it's my first attempt.
Brian Vrolyk
214. vyskol
There is absolutely no indication of rape or compulsion. Ability and opportunity do not equal motive and intent. And speaking of intent, Myrelle's stated intent is to heal Lan. I really can't see any way that raping a person could contribute to healing them.

Further, the reasoning behind using sex to help heal a warder is to give him something else to distract him and give him something to live for. I suppose rape would be a distraction, but hardly one to bring you out of despondency and suicidal tendencies.

I was completely blown away the first time I read someone attribute Lan and Myrelle's sex to rape. I simply don't understand where this is coming from.

I also don't understand the idea that Myrelle was somehow wrong or immoral to have sex with Lan. They're both consenting adults and sex can be a great form of "therapy". It's fun, pleasurable, and life-affirming. Sounds pretty good to me.
Tricia Irish
215. Tektonica
Here Here Vyskol@214!!

I agree. I think her intent was totally above board. You stated it all very well.

I think what Alanna did to Rand is much much worse. Putting herself in his body/head forever, without asking. That is a violation. Makes me sick.
T C
216. Freelancer
forkroot@192

Yes, some people have diminished capacity for sensing a full range of colors. This can occur in the eye itself, through lack of rods matched to certain colors, in the optic nerve by a deficiency in transmitting certain portions of the visual signals, or in the optic center of the brain.

jej@193

Optics is actually a different animal, being focused (pun intended) on materials and design for transmitting & manipulating various forms of light, imagery, etc., and less on the light energy itself. I've never experienced a college optics course, so I couldn't comment properly on how much of a "beast" it might be. Any optics training on my part has been ancillary to physics and electronics instruction, and exposure to field experts.


Shimrod@202

Let me answer the philisophical part first. I mentioned that there are both innate (what I termed universal) responses and cultural or environmental (trained) responses to various stimuli. I dare not approach a discussion of the trained responses, I am not equipped to even pretend any form of expertise there. The responses to which I referred are quite consistent among humans toward pure white objects. As an aside, even the reference you make to white's funereal uses is based in a connection with cleanliness and purity upon a soul's transition out of this temporal existence, but I do not wish to confuse tradition with response.

Back to color. The visible light spectrum ranges from approximately 740nm to 420nm. (You can find listings which show any of a dozen or more different range limits, these are the limits commonly accepted by the DoD) Red is on the low end of the spectrum, violet on the high. Thus wavelengths below the visual are infrared, while those above are [i][b]ultraviolet[/b]. As wavelength decreases, frequency increases, and the perceived color of the wavelength changes.

Concentrations of sensors (cones) in our eyes are "tuned" to different wavelengths in the visible range, transmitting signals to the optic center of the brain for interpretation as color. Where the source of visual stimuli includes a broad enough range of wavelengths, sharing similar peak energy values, the resultant interpretation is of no particular color, but white as the diffusion of that broad range of wavelengths. White light is not a color, it is not all colors, but is instead the loss of distinction of color in broadband photon energy. So, this should answer your questions regarding "dual-colored", "triple-colored". No, if the hues are that discreet, then combinations of twos or threes would not produce white (except in the case of exactly matched values of Red, Green, and Blue, but everyone with a TV or computer monitor knew that already).

The same thing can occur in the audio range of frequencies. Generate an auditory signal composed of a full spectrum of "pitches", all sharing a similar peak energy, and the result is a sound which has NO PITCH. Not all pitches, none. And just to close the loop, this sound is called...
















wait for it...


















White noise.


Edit: For cones, not rods, dummy. Thanks, marcamante. I had started to do a description of both, then cut it down as irrelevant (yes, I do that sometimes) and left the wrong item in place. Duh.
James Jones
217. jamesedjones
214 & 215

Yes. But we all know that Lan is in wuv with Nyneave. And everyone who's read the books knows that Lan is about as honorable and disciplined as any character in any fantasy novel, ever!

So, the conclusion is that that guy (the one described above) would not just jump into bed with his Aes Sedai unless she forced it. Whether by order, or manipulation, or whatever, we just know that Lan would not willingly do that.
T C
218. Freelancer
Ok, who are you, and what have you done with jamesedjones? You can't be him, I never agree with his posts in their entirety!

But this time I do. Lan wouldn't, if he wasn't ordered to in a way which he couldn't resist.
Captain Hammer
220. Randalator
jamesedjones, Freelancer, et al

Yes, Lan is in love with Nynaeve. So? That's not enough to keep him from going into warder rage. He is also still set in his full "now widow's dress for you"-mode (remember the "tell her I found another one; a green" episode from the docks of Cairhien?).

So he's broken, suicidal and doesn't think he'll ever be with Nynaeve. What exactely will keep him from sleeping with Myrelle...?
Marc
221. marcamante
@ freelancer 216

sorry to be super-nitpicky, but I just wanted to mention that it is the cones, not rods, that are the primary color/wavelength sensitive photoreceptor in the human eye.

I was just teaching it in a class today, so that little bit happened to be on the top of my mind :-)

As to the Lan discussion going on, I think that despite him loving Nynaeve, he isn't really bound to her at this point (and as Randalator@220 said, is depressed and doesn't really see her as attainable since he doesn't want to widow her). He has shown, in New Spring, to be bound by Malkier's semi-chivalric/semi-subservient cultural traditions regarding the interaction of men with women as part of his "honor", to the point of allowing Edein and a serving girl to manipulate him into sex and almost getting to the point where Edein was going to marry him to her daughter. Yes, that was a special circumstance, and yes Lan is significantly older now, but time hasn't much worn down his adherence to other traditions, and he still does have that reputation of basically sleeping with the women who pursue him hard enough and then doing his own thing(See: Nisao's comment about Lan loving Nynaeve). I don't think, given all these conditions that he was compelled to sleep with Myrelle.
Thomas Keith
222. insectoid
My, we have been busy! Jump up and down, indeed!

Sam @189: LOL

Free @199, 216: Well, we learn something new every day... LOL at white noise ;)

Rand @220: I totally agree!

*twitchity twitchy twitch*

Bzzz™.
Birgit
223. birgit
He should not have to explain, but it was too late for explanation with Ryne in any case. His father had taken him to Arafel the year Lan turned ten. The man wore a single blade on his hip instead of two on his back, yet he was Arafellin to his toenails. He actually started conversations with women who had not spoken to him first. Lan, raised by Bukama and his friends in Shienar, had been surrounded by a small community who held to Malkieri ways. If Lira did share his bed tonight, as seemed certain, she would discover there was nothing shy or retiring about him once they were abed, yet the woman chose when to enter that bed and when to leave.

NS ch 16
Rob Munnelly
224. RobMRobM
Marca (and Randalator too) - I respectfully disagree. Lan may talk a good game to Nynaeve but he considers himself bound to her. My strong suspicion is that Myrelle tried her "therapy" and was shocked that Lan resisted, and used the bond to make it happen (I'll concede to good intentions even if force was used). When Egwene tells all that Lan loves her and she loves him, there is a reaction of some kind from Myrelle (kind of an "Oh that's why" reaction).

Rob

Edit to add Rand's post into the discussion and for typos
Kurt Lorey
225. Shimrod
Hmm. I think responses to things like color aren't as universal as you think. Perhaps within the western cultural context you can over-generalize in such a way, but then western culture is kind of in the minority.

White doesn't infer "purity" in either Hindu or various Asiatic cultures. Most Hindi brides would wear red to symbolize purity. Wearing white would infer that the prospective bride viewed the upcoming nuptials as the equivalence of death. Some Asiatic brides would also wear red, but as a celebratory color.

Plus, while Christianity might view death as some kind of purifying transition, I really don't think that several other major world religions necessarily view it in the same manner. Shinto wouldn't, Buddhism might, if enlightenment were achieved, Hinduism, only if one travels along the bright path after death.

While I certainly understand you point of view, since I derive from the same general cultural background, I think that you are assigning meaning without full knowledge and thus your argument lacks validity within the greater cultural context. Just because you, or I, wish to attach some kind of special siginificance to a response, idea, or value, doesn't necessarily make that personal (or societal) significance correct or even true for the greater whole.

And just one more question about the science part. Isn't white light not so much the loss of distinction of colors, as in the approximate equality of the intensities of reflected light of the colors? And, no pitch does not equate to no sound, does it? Isn't it similar to white light in that there is just an approximate equality in the stimulation of one's auditory senses?
Captain Hammer
226. Randalator
marcamante @221

As to the Lan discussion going on, I think that despite him loving Nynaeve, he isn't really bound to her at this point

Exactely. It's quite telling that when Egwene mentions Nynaeve's need of a warder, he's not like "Ooh ooh, me, me, I wants!" but just snarkily remarks that she'll need one "helluva guy" to be able to handle her.

It's not until Egwene actively assigns him to Nynaeve duty that it "clicks" in him. This is the moment he finds his purpose and yes, it is his love for Nynaeve but he needed to be hit over the head with it.

Up until then I don't think that sleeping with Myrelle would have been out of the question on account of a severe case of Nynaeve-ity because it was something he tried to ignore...like an old wound. It's actually even more of an argument FOR him sleeping with Myrelle..."A clean wound heals quickest and pains shortest" and all...


RobMRobM @224

When Egwene tells all that Lan loves her and she loves him, there is a reaction of some kind from Myrelle (kind of an "Oh that's why" reaction).

Might just as well be an "Oh that's why my legendary sex didn't yield the same results as with my former patients" reaction... ;-)

I can picture Myrelle being really insulted by that. "How dare you not be healed by my nighttime activities!"
Tess Laird
227. thewindrose
Hi - I'm back!! To busy with the relatives, however should be able to blast away at these at work;) Looks like Leigh accommodated my schedule as well, I do see some twitching going on.

So yes - I am in MN, but I grew up in WI, so I was sad to see the Pack lose. Was kind of on the fence about Favre's move, however he is fun to watch and I can cheer for the Viks without to bad a conscience, as I would like to see him get a ring and then for real retire!

And... I am going to read all comments now, and join in:)
Marcus W
228. toryx
Rob @ 212:

Yeah, I'd heard a little bit about that. I'll have to look into it some more and see what's going down.

I'm actually in the New Hampshire/ Vermont/ Massachusett's area at the southeastern edge of the state. Over here all people are ever talking about is the nuclear power plant.

Vyskol @ 214:

I also don't understand the idea that Myrelle was somehow wrong or immoral to have sex with Lan. They're both consenting adults and sex can be a great form of "therapy". It's fun, pleasurable, and life-affirming. Sounds pretty good to me.

I think the line that everyone is drawing here is marked by that word, "consenting." Consenting is a word with a lot of assumptions drawn into it and a lot of people would say that having sex with someone who is emotionally unbalanced to the point of wanting nothing more than to die would be, in fact, non-consensual.

If a man or woman is committed to a mental hospital in such a state and his/her doctor/ therapist/ mental health worker were to have sex with them, they'd lose their job and face criminal trial.

Now obviously this is Randland so things are a bit different but for me, at least, I cannot see how anything that Lan is doing could be called consensual when all he wants to do is die. That changes (I hope) when it comes to marrying Nynaeve, but it isn't outright stated there either.

Personally, I'm also rather disturbed by Myrelle's "abandon" going so far as to physically mark the dude. Given the precarious state of her position with this, that was not only kind of stupid but does not stand out to me as a sign of rationality.

Randalator @ 220:

So he's broken, suicidal and doesn't think he'll ever be with Nynaeve. What exactely will keep him from sleeping with Myrelle...?

All of which are indications that he's not in a right enough mind to really be consenting. Assuming he wasn't compelled via the warder bond.
JohnY62
229. alreadymadwithconsent
I don't know why you are all arguing the concept of consent. Very little of what Aes Sedai do involve the consent of others around them, particularly if those others are not Aes Sedai. Myrelle would not have made the distinction, nor would she have cared about it. As far as she was concerned sex was a valid technique for therapy and went ahead and tried it. As Lan's bondholder, no matter how she came upon it, she has blanket authority to decide what's good for him.
Captain Hammer
230. Randalator
toryx @228

All of which are indications that he's not in a right enough mind to really be consenting. Assuming he wasn't compelled via the warder bond.

He is in a right enough mind to be sent on a bodyguard mission all on his lonesome. I'd say that qualifies him to say no if he really didn't want to sleep with Myrelle.

He just chose not to because it doesn't matter to him. So that still makes it kind of morally shady because she used his weakness (although imho outweighed by the intentions and absence of "damage") but doesn't qualify as actual rape.

It's about the same as Thom's recipe for getting a guy out of his depression ("get him drunk and find him a pr*cough*). Said guy would be in a similar "yeah, whatever, I don't care" state of mind. And I can't remember anyone crying RAPE! over that suggestion...

Compulsion via the bond would be a whole different matter, of course...from our legal perspective at least...
JohnY62
231. ValMar
Randalator@226
Excellently put.
Also, If I'm not mistaken Land already had an idea how Myrelle treats her warders.
I believe there is no need to go overboard here. Myrelle might have used the bond to some extent but the intention was right and no harm seems to have been done, except Lan getting slapped by Nyn.

And yes, he considered himself finished with Nyn, widow an' all that, didn't even know where she was, and knew nothing about Travelling. He might have actively sought Myrelle's bed to make it easier to cut the link with Nyn.
Sam Mickel
232. Samadai
I think that if Lan was aware enough to understand what is going on between Egwene and the others while he is in the middle of working sword forms, then he is aware enough to consent to have sex with Myrelle.
Marcus W
233. toryx
Alreadymad @ 229:

I actually wasn't the one who started with the consent. Someone else talked about how they're two consenting adults, which I (and perhaps others) disagree with.

Myrelle would not have made the distinction, nor would she have cared about it.

And that is precisely what I object to. It's why I don't like Aes Sedai in general. They rarely care about what others want or need, only what suits them and their purposes. An awful lot of Randlanders seem to view them the same way, even with their vaunted Oath Rod.

ValMar @ 231:

I believe there is no need to go overboard here. Myrelle might have used the bond to some extent but the intention was right and no harm seems to have been done, except Lan getting slapped by Nyn.

Good intentions and the appearance of no harm done doesn't make a bad thing right.

Randland @ 230:

I don't think what Lan (and other warder's whose Aes Sedai have died) is going through can be compared to depression. In my opinion it's closer to an extremely profound case of PTSD, at least in terms of how it effects him on a psychological level. In which case I don't think Thom's solution to male glumness compares. But that's just my opinion.

Anyway, I've made my own viewpoint plain on the issue. I'll stop blabbing about it so much.
JohnY62
234. AndrewB
Freelancer & Randalator (and others)

Your comments (especially Randalator's quote @168) probably make it coonclusive that Myrelle did sleep with Lan). But so that you understood why I asked the question, I read the passage that Myrelle's blush (when asked how the process of saving Lan was going), was an indication that, despite her sucess in saving other Warders and her beauty, she has yet to bed Lan. That is further empahsized by her insistence to Egwene that she has only had Lan for two weeks.

Thanks for reading my musings,
Andrew B

p.s. I did not read beyond 173 when responding to my post at 167.
Tricia Irish
235. Tektonica
toryx@233:

Myrelle would not have made the distinction, nor would she have cared about it.

And that is precisely what I object to. It's why I don't like Aes Sedai in general. They rarely care about what others want or need, only what suits them and their purposes. An awful lot of Randlanders seem to view them the same way, even with their vaunted Oath Rod.


I agree about the AS. I could count the ones I like on one hand, practically.
1 Moraine
2 Siuan
3 Verin
4 Egwene
5 Nynaeve
And probably Elayne. (OK, so that's 6....great for piano!)

There are a few others that are "meh", but most are arrogant, self absorbed, and inconsiderate. And yeah, so much for the "vaunted oath rod", as toryx states.

Re: Lan,
Lan is a big boy. I still think Lan is together enough to say no to Myrelle, if he'd wanted to. I think he just doesn't care. He feels dead, so nothing matters. He is certainly Aware of what's going on when he's going through the Forms. He is just apathetic about life, sex, most anything.

I know we have some Lan lovers here that think he can do no wrong, and I like him too, but he is human and thus fallible. So, whatever happened between he and Myrelle, if it was a mistake in judgement on either of their parts, it is of little importance to him, and I forgive him/them. (Like that matters!)

And by the by, it probably wasn't a real great time for her either! Imagine his attitude? I think her intentions were honorable and were probably tried and tested.
Roger Powell
236. forkroot
Tektonica@235
I'd add Seaine and Pevara to that list of likable AS. I enjoyed following the BA hunters sub-plot that RJ started. It was interesting to follow a fairly important sub-plot that didn't involve any of the "main" characters (until it syncs up with Eg in TGS.)

EDIT: Let me add Teslyn to the list. I have a feeling that she will be on Mat's team come TG.
Marcus W
237. toryx
tektonica @ 235:

The only people I truly like on your list are Verin and Nynaeve. I enjoyed Egwene's chapters a lot more once she started kicking ass as Amyrlin but I don't really like her. And I despise Elayne.

Moiraine strikes me as a regular Aes Sedai who just happens to be more flexible than the norm.

forkroot @ 236: I agree with you regarding Seaine and Pevara. Both of them seem to be exceptions to the rule amongst their own Ajahs, not just as Aes Sedai.

I wouldn't go so far with Teslyn. She's changing, but largely the way she relates to Mat is due to the things he's done for her and her inability to control him. As far as I can tell, she still treats everyone else exactly the same way as she always did.
T C
238. Freelancer
Shimrod,

I said I wasn't going to discuss cultural or tradition-based responses, and I meant exactly that.

Isn't white light not so much the loss of distinction of colors, as in the approximate equality of the intensities of reflected light of the colors?
The approximate equality of the intensities of reflected (or refracted, or diffused) light of the colors results in no distinguishable color, also known as white.

And, no pitch does not equate to no sound, does it?
If there was no sound it would be called white silence. No pitch means no distinct tone or frequency. Answer is ditto to the above. Altering semantics doesn't alter reality. Or perception.
James Jones
239. jamesedjones
237 toryx

I'm not sure anyone would want it, but you've got my support on everything you just said. Great evaluation on Teslyn! I think a lot of people are seeing way more growth than is actually happening with her. Sure, she's changing and adapting, but it's not offering a complete 180 on who she was. In fact, I'd say most of the ladies we've seen "change" around Mat are just getting to know him better and starting to see beyond his surface.
Kurt Lorey
240. Shimrod
I was just asking to make sure I understood your definitions. Jeesh, I wasn't trying to be critical. Touchy.

Besides, wouldn't you rather talk about anything else besides Lan and Myrelle?
James Jones
241. jamesedjones
240 Shimrod

We can do both, 'cause al'Lan Mandragoran isn't limited to white noise. He can hear white silence.
Roger Powell
243. forkroot
Re: Teslyn ... wasn't she responsible for the warning note to Mat? Besides, anyone who despises Elaida can't be all bad. OTOH she was surely "high and mighty" with the SGs when they first got to Ebou Dar.

So I guess she's a "mixed bag" (or a mixed up old bag, or something ....)
Roger Powell
244. forkroot
Freelancer@238
The approximate equality of the intensities of reflected (or refracted, or diffused) light of the colors results in no distinguishable color, also known as white.
From a practical matter though, if I go to Home Depot and they ask me what color paint of I want, they will accept "white" as an answer. I haven't tried "no distinguishable color" yet. ;-)
Tricia Irish
245. Tektonica
toryx@237:

OK, I'll admit it....I didn't really like Nynaeve much....in fact she drove me bats with all her self-dilusion, braid tugging and sniffing. But since she and Lan got married, and she got her channelling ability working 24/7, and became Numero Uno Rand supporter in tGS, she has come into her own.
I always thought she was talented, true-blue and smart.....but not Wise. She is getting Wise. Selflessly sending Lan off into the Borderlands to raise an army for Team Light was a huge sacrifice on her part. She might be my fave of the super girls now.

Egwene used to be my fave, but in spite of her MOA in tGS, and she was awesome, I suspect a bit of, not quite arrogance, but superiority about her now? I don't know. My jury's out on her....depends on how she deals with Rand. If she tries to "control" him instead of "help" him, she won't be high on my list.

Elayne is OK in my book. Not a favorite, but she's good at being Queen. I can hardly blame her for many of her attitudes, having been raised where and how she was. I think all in all, she's got a good heart and her motives are for the good of her country, as they should be. She is becoming less the little girl.

I think/hope Moraine comes away from the Finns with more power and more perspective. I think she has real potential for being insightful. She did see the error of her ways with Rand.....if only to aid her own cause...but at least she "saw" it.....unlike say, Cadsuane and most of the AS.

And Siuan is one smart cookie. Having reduced power was the best thing that ever happened to her. She started observing, and aiding others!Hope she gets some power back, and kicks butt at TG. Being stilled and regaining a small amount of power made her human and humble.

Pevara and Seaine are certainly working hard for the Light and that's nice, but I don't have enough of a sense of them as individuals to comment on liking or not liking them. I do appreciate what they do.
JohnY62
246. alreadymadwithteslyn
Teslyn might still act the same towards anybody else, but she's also about the only Aes Sedai I know who is capable of showing gratitude. Based on their dialogue when Mat broke her out, she probably has more loyalty to Mat than to the White Tower at this point. She's definitely on Mat's team.
Tess Laird
247. thewindrose
So no one wanted to talk about this:

“I suppose I couldn't,” Egwene murmured. She rather liked the woman, whatever anyone said, and not just for her talent in smoothing away headaches. Halima was earthy and open, a country woman however much time she had spent gaining a skim of city sophistication, balancing respect for the Amyrlin with a sort of neighborliness in a way Egwene found refreshing. Startling, sometimes, but enlivening.

When I read this, I was like whoa, Egwene is a bit attracted to Halima. She doesn't know that Hamlina was once a guy, but there is an attraction there(and not saying anything against if Halima was a woman before):

Egwene lets her thoughts drift, and thinks that Halima isn’t so bad, just misunderstood, and it wasn’t her fault her beauty made everyone assume she was a “brainless flipskirt”. Egwene had known she was intelligent since their first meeting, the day after Logain escaped and the headaches had begun. Egwene tries to think about all the problems in front of her, but Halima instructs her to relax.

“You’re stiff as a stake; you should be supple enough to bend backwards and put your head between your ankles. Mind and body. One can’t be limber without the other. Just put yourself in my hands.”

Egwene, drifting off to sleep, murmurs that that would be nice.


Where everyone else is either a bit frightened of her or intimidated, there is a vibe I read into Egwene's scenes with Halima that speaks of attraction on a sub level. Anyone else see this?
JohnY62
248. thepupxpert
There are some strong arguments for and against the idea of Myrelle taking Lan to her bed, but I agree with Andrew B. @ 234 that Myrelle's blush was a sure sign that she had not gotten what she wanted from him. Now whether it was sex or something else, I think she clearly was reacting like she had been unsuccessful at achieving her goal. I'd like to think she was unable to get him to perform in bed (and she obviously tried) but it could also be that regardless of whether they had sex, she couldn't get him to connect with her on any level. That's the romantic in me talking...
Barry T
249. blindillusion
And she bit him out of sexual frustration? Sounds plausible.
Barry T
251. blindillusion
Egwene notices what might be a bite mark on his neck, and considers cautioning him not to mention certain of Myrelle’s rehabilitation methods

From Leigh's re-cap. I don't have the book, so I don't know for sure what the exact discription is.
Bonnie Andrews
252. misfortuona
Wind@247
I read this more as Halima had managed to connect to Egwene's roots. To make herself seem more like the women back home so that she would trust her more easily.
Attraction? Maybe now that you've suggested, but I think if it is Halima's put the idea there.

The whole supple enough to put your head between your ankles thing just creeps me out. You just know she'd like to do nothing more with her.

Mis-apprehensive
JohnY62
253. alreadymadwithhalima
“You’re stiff as a stake; you should be supple enough to bend backwards and put your head between your ankles. Mind and body. One can’t be limber without the other. Just put yourself in my hands.”

Halima was probably just being a pervert as usual.
Tricia Irish
254. Tektonica
From my post @64

Oh and Halima!!! Can't you just see her/him setting the weaves as she/he manipulates her head......you are getting sleepy.......you will like me.....you will let me walk with you in your dreams.....you will talk in your sleep and tell me your plans.....you trust me.....Yikes!!!!

Maybe she was just "connecting" to Egwene's past, but I think she was doing some weaving here.....suggestions of behavior....mild compulsion Headaches?

Hadn't thought about the sexual attraction idea...ummm...remember how Arangar was coming onto Graendal at the Social...randy guy/gal. Halima had her opportunities while sleeping in Egs tent and nothing happened. It just might not be Egs bag.

I really don't think RJ is into writing sexual things. Innuendo, yes....but oh so subtle. We might be reading a bit into this.
T C
255. Freelancer
forkroot@244

Tell them you want your walls to appear pure and colorless, and you'll get white. And they'll laugh at you behind your back as you leave.
JohnY62
256. AndrewB
Tektonica @235 & Forkroot @236,

I agree with your list of likeable AS with the exception of Nyn. I am a card carrying member of the Nyn haters club. (Nyn is my least favorite WoT character in the entire world. I even like the lizards in the Aiel Waste better than I do Nyn). If she were real, I would have nothing positive to say about her. I have to give credit to RJ -- the ideal major literary character is one that the reader has a strong opinion about (be it positive or negative). I realize that there are a lot of you who love Nyn. All I have to say to that is to each their own (I guess some people just love their hypocritical, braid-tugging, bossy, abrasive (sp?) characters.)

Ah, let me get back on route. Everyone forgot about Leane. She is another AS who is very likeable.

I am also with those who think that Teslyn has a way to go.

Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
Tess Laird
257. thewindrose
Tektonica-
While I do feel Ms Halima would like some special alone time with our young and pretty Egwene, I don't that relationship will be on any of the bards tongues. I though some lightness was needed after some of the heavy topics that were debated into the nity-grity:)

And I saw subwoofer running around!

Jay Dauro
258. J.Dauro
aCoS - 12

Some sisters believed there was one more part of saving a Warder whose bond was broken by death; putting him into the arms - into the bed - of a woman. No man could focus on death then, the belief ran. Myrelle, it seemed, had taken care of that herself, too. At least she had not actually married him, not if she meant to pass him on. It would be just as well if Nynaeve never found out.
I read this a Egwene thinking that Myrelle and Lan did sleep together.

aCoS - 31

"You know why it can't be, Nynaeve. And even if it could, Myrelle -"
Despite all her promises to keep her temper, to be gentle, she embraced saidar and stuffed a gag of Air into his mouth before he could confess what she did not want to hear. So long as he did not confess, she could pretend nothing had happened.
I read this as Lan starting to confess that he did sleep with Myrelle, and Nynaeve thinking that is what he is going to confess. I do not think Lan would need to 'confess' that he had been taken against his will, or that Myrelle had tried to seduce him and he had refused her.

Just the way I read it. I understand the other views also. So in the end, unless we get the word from on high, it all comes down to how you read the text.
Alice Arneson
259. Wetlandernw
So in the end, unless we get the word from on high, it all comes down to how you read the text. So true, of so many things in WoT! I think it's one of the major distinctives of this series. Not everything is clearcut, and not everything is told. BWS told us that some of the RAFOs RJ gave were not because the point was necessarily plot-critical or spoilerific, but because he enjoyed the debates and discussions and didn't want to end them prematurely. I also think he deliberately left things like this to the preference of the reader. For an author, there's a fine line between acknowledging sexuality and being prurient. Different readers have different tolerance levels, so unless you're willing to limit your audience, you have to find a balance. RJ did several "cut to the fireplace" scenes, where you know what's happening but he leaves the detail to your imagination/experience to fill in. He also did a lot of things like this (not all of them involving sex) where it's up to the reader to decide exactly what happened - or didn't. Unless it's actually critical to the plot, some things just don't need to be spelled out.

J.Dauro - for an example, I read your last quote as Nynaeve thinking Lan was going to confess to sleeping with Myrelle, but not necessarily that she was correct. It seemed just so typical that she would assume the worst, when all he was going to say was that Myrelle held his bond, or maybe that Myrelle would be too aware of his... activities... for comfort.
Birgit
260. birgit
“You’re stiff as a stake; you should be supple enough to bend backwards and put your head between your ankles. Mind and body. One can’t be limber without the other. Just put yourself in my hands.”

Has Halima been meeting with Graendal recently? Moggy also imitates Graendal's living "ornaments" when she catches Ny in TAR.
Marcus W
261. toryx
I always thought that Egwene's whole thought of Halima as a refreshing, earthy and open woman was a big sign in bright neon from RJ pointing out that she was being compelled with the Power. I can't possibly imagine the Women's Circle back in the Two Rivers putting up with Halima's "open" ways.

Nynaeve and Egwene's mother alone would probably have switched her from one end of the village to the other until she put on some decent clothes.
JohnY62
262. ValMar
I have to agree with toryx that it is pretty clear that Halima was "influencing" Eg to have an opinion on Halima somewhat different than everyone else.
I always took it as a given that Halima was using mild compulsion here.
Also, given what we know about her/him, I'm sure that Halima would've liked to have a go at Eg but that would've jeopardised her mission and she was under strict instructions or afraid to risk it.
Tess Laird
263. thewindrose
Hey toryx and ValMar - could you even see Egwene and Nyn back in the Two Rivers anymore? They might tell the two 'girls' to wait until Lord Perrin and Lady Faile can come back and set them straight. (I am giggling right now:)

I am not too convinced on the Compulsion idea either. I think Hamila was just messing with Egwenes' Dreaming Talent. I guess I just don't like to blame everything on Compulsion - however I still stand strong on Gawyn being Compelled - ::waves:: at Freelancer(Free loves that theory:).
James Jones
264. jamesedjones
Pablo? Leigh?

Twitch!

Twichity! Twitch! Twitch! Twitch!

Edit: Yes, I'm a Dennis Miller fan.
Tess Laird
265. thewindrose
I think Mr. RFife needs to make a Twitch song for us.
JohnY62
266. ValMar
windrose@263
The way Eg is rationalising how Halima is not that bad/misunderstood and how everyone is wrong about her just as Halima was "working her magic" on her has convinsed me beyond doubt. Halima is not even bothering to modify her behaviour towards others infront of Eg.
I never made the connection of Eg being TR prudish and Halima. But remember Eg's opinion on Berelain from a couple of months ago. Despite seeing herself that Berelain was doing good job and the WO liked her, Eg could not see beyond Berelain's cloths and alleged behaviour. A mirror reverse with Halima.

Anyway, off to the gym now. The new post better be up when I'm back or I'll have a word with the Village Council.
Roger Powell
267. forkroot
Freelancer@255
Hmm, that might have worked better than what actually happened.

When they asked me what color I wanted, I said "white". So they said "Do you want Cottage White, Dutch White, Eggshell, Blanche, Mist White, Bright White, Antique White....?"

They were still naming colors as I walked away.
Marcus W
268. toryx
Windrose @ 263:

Compulsion doesn't happen that often but when it does (like with Egwene) it tends to be a little more obvious than when it doesn't (like with Gawyn).

I think there's far more evidence pointing toward compulsion toward Egwene than Gawyn.

We know for a fact that Halima is using the power on Egwene and as ValMar points out @ 266, her thoughts about how nice and homey Halima is floats to the surface whenever Halima is touching her, almost as though it's been put there.
Bonnie Andrews
269. misfortuona
Toryx@268
Re Halima and Egwene
While I am firmly in the Halima is using compulsion camp. I don't think that we can say that thoughts, homey or otherwise about Halima, that might surface while Halima is touching her is conclusive. She is recieving a massage at the time and you tend to think good things about people while they're making you feel good.

Still as has been pointed out several times, Halima just doesn't fit the wholesome two rivers folk idea.

ValMar's comparison to Egwene's attitute toward Berlain is an excellent one. The girl hasn't come that far since she left Carhein. (That is where she saw her last isn't it?)

Mis-twitching
JohnY62
270. yasiru89
The Warder bond is probably the single most unethical practice taken for granted among Randlanders. If what Kiruna and Bera asked of Alanna regarding her bond to Rand is any indication, the bond can be used much the same way as an a'dam would on a non-channeler, if not using much the same mechanism Compulsion does- and with equally damning moral consequence. The Asha'man aren't shy about exposing that aspect of it either, and seemingly have made more progress on the things than the White Tower ever has. Loony Lews Therin can't be blamed for running off the moment the thing was done to him (Rand)!

On the other hand, in the Moiraine-Lan case, I believe Myrelle being an intermediary was more a matter of Moiraine underestimating Nynaeve than anything else. Perhaps she also did not take into account exactly what would keep a man going after a stilling-like event took him and put her faith entirely in Myrelle's past track record. Or maybe it was the just the practicality of it, in that Nynaeve was only an Accepted last she knew, and Moiraine could not see beyond Tower law (which is to be upheld at all times... except when Moiraine thinks it's necessary to take some liberties in the greater quest against the Shadow! A major failing of hers right up until FoH, in that she was willing to give up anything for that singular purpose. Not that I'm saying she would have turned into 'Moirdeth'... but she was at least right up there with Aiel in a decided counterpoint to their 'missing the ultimate goal for the honour').
JohnY62
271. Eduard
I think that a lot of the comments here about the Tylin/Mat situation are absolutely ridiculous. So the problem Mat had with Tylin wasn't that he didn't find her attractive? She still used her position as queen (and a knife -.-) to force him to do something he didn't want to do.

It is equally as ridiculous to claim that a man can't get an erection if he doesn't want to or that if he does get it he must want to have sex so it doesn't matter. It is not unknown for women to orgasm during rape (though not common of course), does that mean they enjoyed it and it wasn't rape?

Granted Robert Jordan made it seem afterwards that Mat wasn't all that traumatised but that just dissapointed me to be honest.

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