Dec 7 2009 12:00pm

The Wheel of Time: The Gathering Storm Open Spoiler Thread, Part the Second!

Welcome to the continuation of The Gathering Storm Open Spoiler Thread! Be sure to read Leigh’s review (and the first 3000+ comments!) over here. That thread is now closed, so please use this area for discussion of the book. And it should go without saying, but this thread contains giant, massive, book-destroying spoilers!

Without further ado...

Wheel of Time Master Index: ‹ previous | index | next ›
Roger Powell
1. forkroot
How funny... had tried to post this on the old thread right about the time that Torie was closing it... So FWIW, here's what I had said:

Am more thinking that there were some toys with serious juju used and lost in the Breaking. Maybe even a balefire angreal.
Well we know about the ter'angreal that produces balefire (fluted black rod). Jeaine Caide tried to balefire Nynaeve with it.

BTW, Jeaine had experimented with the thing while on a ship bound for Tanchico and burned holes in both sides of the boat, nearly sinking it. I really wish RJ had put that scene "on screen" instead of just referencing it, because it could have been really funny.
Tess Laird
2. thewindrose
HA! Subwoofer you've been punked by Torie.
I like the new three Theory with involvement in T'A'R being key. And we have 3 main characters that can show up there. I think this is where Perrin would be the "Wolf King". Perhaps by even being a wolf - Hopper his second of course:)
I know - RAFO...
5. thepupxpert
I've just spent the last 5 weeks going through all the re-reads, the FAQ, reading TGS, and going through most of the 3000+ postings on the last thread, and I am so impressed by the knowledge of this group. Being a "newbie" I just wanted to post that the last few weeks of studying everything that is out has made the series a lot more clear to me and therefore much more enjoyable. I started re-reading the books (again) after I finished TGS (just finished ACOS) and it has been great to refer to everything to keep it straight in my head. Thanks again and YAY I'm No. 5!
Barry T
6. blindillusion

Welcome to the Group.

Come on over the the aCoS re-read. New minds are always welcome.
7. cambosabe
elin morin tedronai:ishamael
joar addam nessossin:asmodean
barid bel something-or-other:sammael
Who is beidomon?(glass columns with mierin tsr)

Does anybody else think that weiramon is actually demandred? That would explain demandreds armies and why weiramon is always clean.
Just some thoughts.
Ambrose Scalvini
8. MagicDragon
I just re-read TSR and the part where Nanaeve is fighting Moghedien, Moghedien says that the male adam is made of cuendillar and not even balefire can destroy it. This is proven to Nanaeve when Jeaine uses the ter'angreal Forkroot mentioned above and hits display cases with cuendillar in them, the cases are gone and the cuendillar drops to the floor undamaged. This has me wondering how Rand is able to destroy the one on his neck with only fire and air.
Lannis .
9. Lannis
@ MagicDragon: Rand is able to destroy the male a'dam with fire and air woven from the True Power, not saidin... so we now know that the True Power can destroy cuendillar... along with, you know, giving us all the heebie-jeebies... ;)
10. Planeswalker

ditto!!! yea sub, torie totally smashed you. the last laugh it is!


nah, in forums? admins always win. :) hey, but we tried, right?
Lannis .
11. Lannis
cambosabe @ 7: This is who Beidomon was... though I don't think there's a concrete answer to that question. It's unlikely that Beidomon is one of the Forsaken, if only because--like you've pointed out--we've got the history of most of them. There's always the possibility that he was just a dude who ended up kickin' it, and we've heard all we will about him... Though I know what you're thinking: rarely does RJ do something so open-ended...
12. mofojar
I just have to give kudos to Brandon, Harriet, Tom and of course RJ for giving us this wonderful book. I'm so stoked for the next book that I really dont know what to do. Bring on the Towers of Midnight!
13. cambosabe
Maybe the copies of the male a'dam didn't have to be made of cuendillar. The making of heartstone is, after all, a recent rediscovery. If there were alternatives, why would Semirhage (or anyone) go through the trouble of making them in cuendillar? Not to mention risking discovery. And that is even if she knew how. (The Forsaken (Chosen) know a lot but not all.) I could be wrong and it could be the True Power but I think that answer is too easy. If the True Power, straight from the Dark One could destroy cuendillar, the seals should have been too easy for him to break. Then again, maybe not.
Keith Adamson
14. Tyrunea
New Theory: Now that Rand has regained most of his sanity, he will go back to the Seanchan for a truce, and will end up bowing to the Crystal Throne after helping Tuon reclaim it. Thus fulfilling another prophcey.
15. Tialin
I think Beidomon was the AoL equivalent of a red shirt. Likely some researcher Meirin dazzled into helping her do whatever she wanted to do.
16. cambosabe
Thank you Lannis. I was going off memory (some of which was flawed-e.g. Demandred not Sammael) only of the books (as opposed to the web, etc.) That was a helpful link. Still, I wonder if Weiramon is really Demandred. Why else would he tell off an Asha'man like that? The "methods" he uses likely involve staying covert (via inverted webs to hide his channeling) and biding his time until he can assume the title of Nae'blis. He'd probably kill Rand except for the Dark One's command to "let the lord of chaos rule". This can be taken to mean "Let the Dragon rule in power so he can be a powerful tool when he is turned" or "Whoever creates the most chaos I will let rule." Either way, he would have a great advantage in his current position. Where else would Demandred want to be except in control of Rand's largest military force? Chaotic opportunities galore! Plus, as I've said, that would explain Demandred's "I gather for war" statement. The only wrinkle I see in this theory is his use of the word "rule", but that does not necessarily mean a kingdom. Your thoughts anyone?
John Massey
17. subwoofer
What the?!

Torie- Jesus is looking at you- so is Santa. They both have things to say. Santa said you can get back on the "nice" list by giving me the light-up TOR dingle ball for being the fun loving woofer that I am, Jesus just shook his head and laughed at me;)

Barry T
18. blindillusion

According to Mr Jordan, as of KoD we hadn't seen Demandred's alter-ego yet. Weiramon appeared in tFoH.

And for all of your WoT search needs, click this link here for a post from our very own Wetlandernw.


Too LOL.
John Massey
19. subwoofer
@Fork- yes, I do recall the rod, and I am thinking that there were a bunch like that. I recall a line somewhere about letting the balefire loose or some such. Between that and various Forsaken ranting about shock lances, I am of the mind that there are some serious angreal yet to be seen or used for the Last Battle.

Hi Torie:)

Rod Murgatroyd
20. freddagg
Mesaana's identity has been well hidden but possibly she has been disclosed. These three parts together may point to her.

a] Graendal in the prologue to The Gathering Storm talking of Mesaana describes her as "A scholar to the core"

b] In "A visit from Verin Sedai" Egwene surmises this: "What better way to hide than as an unassuming brown"

c] In a previous book I recall that Alviarin? when cowering before Mesaana sees a brown skirt with a green embroidered hem.

So the clues would point to Nalasia Merhan, a brown who is one of the three on Egwene's list of possible suspects.

Get in behind...
Birgit F
21. birgit
posting statistics for the long TGS thread (and the first 20 comments of part 2)

- different spellings of usernames are counted separately
- punctuation is counted as words

top 50 posters by number of comments username;comments;words;average words per comment
1: Freelancer;237;58042;244.0
2: blindillusion;159;36119;227.0
3: RobMRobM;146;16609;113.0
4: subwoofer;118;25413;215.0
5: Samadai;109;9474;86.0
6: MasterAlThor;96;14033;146.0
7: schrodinger;96;11753;122.0
8: alreadymad... (all);85;9660;113.0
9: blocksmith;77;14057;182.0
10: forkroot;67;15251;227.0
11: Tektonica;65;16125;248.0
12: Lannis;64;11319;176.0
13: Man-0-Manetheran;62;9219;148.0
14: Wetlandernw;58;18341;316.0
15: insectoid;55;5862;106.0
16: thewindrose;53;8696;164.0
17: pattack;49;5860;119.0
18: Amalisa;42;11162;265.0
19: FSS;40;3867;96.0
20: Nightbaron;38;6258;164.0
21: darth.agilus;37;6594;178.0
22: jamesedjones;37;4358;117.0
23: gagecreedlives;36;4103;113.0
24: Isilel;35;12012;343.0
25: lbrown;32;6171;192.0
26: Silvertip;30;4939;164.0
27: sps49;29;4446;153.0
28: Randalator;29;5087;175.0
29: Bouke;28;5867;209.0
30: Planeswalker;27;3727;138.0
31: Shimrod;26;1946;74.0
32: BillinHI;24;4300;179.0
33: R.Fife;23;4267;185.0
34: Longtimefan;23;7030;305.0
35: Seamus1602;23;5138;223.0
36: PeteP;21;2509;119.0
37: Aye Aye Sedai;19;5152;271.0
38: Alisonwonderland;19;3710;195.0
39: Chriscot;18;5354;297.0
40: Tina.Murrah;18;1674;93.0
41: kab1;18;4077;226.0
42: bad_platypus;18;2459;136.0
43: GatheringStorm;18;1365;75.0
44: First Selector;17;2036;119.0
45: leighdb;17;2623;154.0
46: J.Dauro;17;2310;135.0
47: Helen;17;4060;238.0
48: birgit;16;4020;251.0
49: Lily of the Valley;15;2260;150.0
50: EvaLou;15;1764;117.0

top 50 posters by number of words
username;words;comments;average words per comment
1: Freelancer;58042;237;244.0
2: blindillusion;36119;159;227.0
3: subwoofer;25413;118;215.0
4: Wetlandernw;18341;58;316.0
5: RobMRobM;16609;146;113.0
6: Tektonica;16125;65;248.0
7: forkroot;15251;67;227.0
8: blocksmith;14057;77;182.0
9: MasterAlThor;14033;96;146.0
10: Isilel;12012;35;343.0
11: schrodinger;11753;96;122.0
12: Lannis;11319;64;176.0
13: Amalisa;11162;42;265.0
14: alreadymad... (all);9660;85;113.0
15: Samadai;9474;109;86.0
16: Man-0-Manetheran;9219;62;148.0
17: thewindrose;8696;53;164.0
18: Longtimefan;7030;23;305.0
19: rothaar;6710;12;559.0
20: darth.agilus;6594;37;178.0
21: Nightbaron;6258;38;164.0
22: lbrown;6171;32;192.0
23: Bouke;5867;28;209.0
24: insectoid;5862;55;106.0
25: pattack;5860;49;119.0
26: Chriscot;5354;18;297.0
27: Aye Aye Sedai;5152;19;271.0
28: Seamus1602;5138;23;223.0
29: Randalator;5087;29;175.0
30: Silvertip;4939;30;164.0
31: Wolfmage;4617;13;355.0
32: Adrian Sedai;4554;13;350.0
33: sps49;4446;29;153.0
34: jamesedjones;4358;37;117.0
35: BillinHI;4300;24;179.0
36: R.Fife;4267;23;185.0
37: gagecreedlives;4103;36;113.0
38: kab1;4077;18;226.0
39: Helen;4060;17;238.0
40: birgit;4020;16;251.0
41: FSS;3867;40;96.0
42: Planeswalker;3727;27;138.0
43: Alisonwonderland;3710;19;195.0
44: Balthanon;3113;7;444.0
45: stargazer;3059;13;235.0
46: SteelBlaidd;3058;12;254.0
47: AndrewB;2770;8;346.0
48: leighdb;2623;17;154.0
49: Auspicium;2547;12;212.0
50: Aneid;2542;11;231.0

There were 544 different usernames. 295 names appear only once (including many alreadymad...).
Ed Rafferty
22. BigBoy57
Aaaaaagghhhh!!!! I didn't make the list!!

Even Leigh beat me! (And she was trying to stay away!).

Oh the shame, the shame.....
23. alreadymadwithcuendillar
Sad bracelets feel evil just as the Seals do when they are about to break. Both are made of cuendillar. So yeah, while cuendillar is unbreakable to any force generated from within the Pattern, including balefire, it is vulnerable to something from outside of it, as in the Dark One and his True Power. I suspect cuendillar also has the property of leaching the taint, and this emanates as a feeling of evil.
Birgit F
24. birgit
You missed very narrowly. You are Nr. 51 by number of comments (67 by number of words).
Henry Loose
25. schrodinger
regarding beidomon poss. forsaken

I don't think he was, however we don't know the ratio of "forsaken" to "dreadlords" during the WoP, or the actual number of forsaken. There could have been more forsaken during the war, but they were taken out due to light forces or scheming by fellow forsaken... 10 years is a long time to survive in that environment. We only "know" through tBBoBA who the current forsaken were and why they went over, but we don't know who they replaced (if they did replace anybody).

Woohoo! numbers 7 and 11, I need a drink.
Rob Munnelly
26. RobMRobM
I can't believe I beat the Woof on number of comments. I'm not worthy..... *bows*

Also note the strong showing by the contigent originating from the MA Aiel: myself, blocksmith and forkroot in the top 10 in both categories. Almost makes up for the Patriots excerable play on the road in Miami this weekend and earlier this year....
Tess Laird
27. thewindrose
I think subwoofer would have been at #1, but remember I had to put an APB out on him. He was out hunting, and I thought he may of froze out on the tundra...
28. MasterAlThor
Whoooo Hooooo!!!!!

I'm in the top 10 on both list. And I actually beat out Wetlandernw and a few other prolific posters. Yeeeaaaahhhhhh Baby.

:: passing drinks around::

Leigh Butler
29. leighdb
I am completely shocked I made the top 50.
Tricia Irish
30. Tektonica
I'm embarrassed to have been so high on this list. I don't know enough lore and detail to share space with the experts. At least I"ll have to be less verbose! It sure is fun though!
Tess Laird
31. thewindrose
leighdb - you were a little squirrely in the beginning - post reading high I would suspect:)
Thomas Keith
32. insectoid
I'm rather surprised that I made the top 25 on both lists! I'm usually not that wordy...
Barry T
33. blindillusion
Number Two on both lists?

You win again, Freelancer.

I would just like to thank insomnia and...

I just like to comment! Commenting's my favorite.
34. Lowlandr
@21 Birgit

so, what do we learn from this:
1. we've got a lot of WoT'ies out there who like a lot of words;
2. Freelancer just LOVES words;
3. Birgit just LOVES numb3rs;
4. Considering she's in the top 50, Leigh is a fan of us too :)
5. TOR throws in the towel at @3428, closing was done by Torie, whom you might ask everything*
6. loading time of the previous page was about: getting a cup of coffee and doing 2 re-read of one of the other books.

*Some restrictions may apply
Jack Diamond
35. violetdancer
Per Leigh's request,I thought I'd put my Is-Mesaana-still-in the-Tower theory here rather than the COS thread.

Just because Messaana could have been Danelle doesn't mean she has to stay Danelle. In Ebou Dar the Supergirls put on a new disguise every time they left the palace. It's possible she took on the guise of a novice, but here is something else. One way to defeat the Oath Rod would be to take the place of one of the BA hunters, who already swore on it. And I doubt Mesaana would balk at killing a sister.

It may be another red herring, but Meidani is suspect. When Egwene sees her in Elaida's quarters (TGS, The Nature of Pain), she's all decked out in green silk and emeralds. Meidani has haunted eyes and seems completly under Elaida's thumb.

When Egwene goes to Meidani's quarters (TGS, Unexpected Encounters), Meidani is wearing a plain white dress (and she's Gray Ajah not White) with no hint of jewelry, exactly what Mesaana was described wearing in the meeting with Moridin. Egwene notes that her appearance is suprisingly different, and she no longer is playing the doormat.

Food for thought at this point without more info. My question is Would Mesaana have anything to gain by outing the BA hunters to Egrene? If so what?
Jay Dauro
36. J.Dauro
violetdancer @35

Does Mesaana know the BA Hunters? SH put Alviaren to work trying to find them. Mesaana knows that the Black Sitter who was turned was seen with a couple of the BA hunters, and tries to kidnap them, but has not succeeded when the Tower is attacked (IIRC.)

So she may be suspicious, but cannot confirm they are hunters, and should have no reason to suspect they will not be forced to re-take the Oaths with everyone else. (This assumes she knows that is what Egwene did to the SAS, a good assumption since all of the BA fled, and that Egwene did not force them to redo the Oaths.)

And Egwene knows the BA Hunters. Meidani takes her to them.
37. Mr. Shiny & New
Did I misremember or is this the first time they used the eavesdropping weave to quietly smash a door down?

This is the sort of thing that seems immediately obvious yet I can't remember it happening before and things like this don't happen nearly often enough. Sure some of the Aes Sedai and Asha'man are not ninjas or commandos but you'd think that lots of them would be particularly adept at this. I seem to recall that Alviarin had to use the power to make sure a door didn't squeak. Seems amateur to me. Tie off an inverted weave and it's squeak-free for a while.

Similarly there is a lack of such actions as putting doorways out of reach of the ground (accessible only by a staircase of Air), hallways with no lamps or windows (bring your own light or use Fire), etc, which would be de rigeur for anyone worried about attack. Sure, they have "wardings", but what about defense in depth?
Ron Garrison
38. Man-0-Manetheran
@21 birgit
Ain't technology grand!?! I made a list, er, two lists! Wow! Thanks.
Ron Garrison
39. Man-0-Manetheran
@20 freddagg
These three good reasons also point to the very popular Danelle - also a brown.
Victoria Tomlin
40. vic_100
Hey, this a bit off topic, but what happened to Mattin Stepanos, former king of Illian?

He was in the Tower, kidnapped by Elaida, in KOD, so what happened to him during and after the Seanchan Raid?
41. mdg
cambosabe @ 7

I dunno. i tend to think that Demandred is masquerading as Mazrim Taim.

Vic_100@40, no mention is made in TGS, so i guess it's a RAFO for Towers of Midnight?
42. Freelancer

Man, kicked to the curb withou a second glance. That had to hurt.


Why not enter this "part deux" starting with comment #3421? I bet it's possible, and it would have been very cool.

Oh, and thank you re: 3375, a clever move.


Eesh. I begin to think you're trying to make a point... ;-)

Edit: I'd just like to remind everybody that a substantial portion of those comments related to the San Diego tour event, collecting and answering questions, responding to feedback caused by same, etc. In other words, many of you share significantly in that word count, though it was entered in the thread under my name.(not like that would be enough to move blindillusion past me)
43. Lily of the Valley
Mazrim Tain isn't Demandred. :) That theory was disproved by Robert Jordan himself in 2003.

Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."

(taken from the WOTFAQ]
Bouke de Boer
44. Bouke

I wasn't able to check the thread over the weekend due to family obligations, and I missed it. Would have loved to contribute to the 3500 mark.
Why do we live again? So we can amend mistakes
I'll take comfort in that...

So, some responses on the old thread:

pattack @3217 re: remnants of ages past.
If you look at our own world, how much do we still know of great empires from the past? The Romans, pretty much, the Greeks, pretty much. The Egyptians? Less. Those other guys from ancient Mesopotamia? The Stone Age? Prehistory? Before that? IMO, it's not so hard to imagine that mucho knowledge is lost to the ages (pun intended)

Hey, you actually posted something significant here!

blocksmith @3231 re: LTT's voice from the past.
Whereas Mat is still sane, Rand wasn't anymore. For him, a conversation is perfectly normal.

AMWRandsissues @3266 re: Rand.

Fiddler @3293.
The Dutch wave... Yay A'dam!

pattack @3316.
Aaaand here's where you lost it. Definitely. Positively. Irrevocably?

Subwoofer @3338 re: Jar Jar.
Gawyn is a good candidate. Nynaeve was my Jar Jar for the first couple of books because of her annoyingness, but she got over it.

Adrian Sedai @3356 re: Galad.
Nice! This started a whole new branch in the discussion, but I was impressed from the start. Keep it up!

And a final note: I made the top 30, yay!
I would like to thank my mother and my brother. Oh, and of course all you fine posters (save some) here at, err, I mean

Now, on to the re-read for ACOS!
Jack Diamond
45. violetdancer
Yes, I know Taim is not Demandred, but I believe there are other possibilities.

In the Prologue of LoC, Demandred goes to Shayol Ghul and describes what it was like in AOL: an idyllic island in a cool sea, a place for (I assume) recreation. When the Bore was sealed by LTT and the 100 Companions the DO and all 13 of the Forsaken/Chosen were trapped. But were they the only ones there at the time?

Who served the drinks? In nearly every POV we have of the Forsaken, there are servants about. Also RJ stated several times in different books that the Forsaken were only the 13 most powerful of his minions. What happened to all the other grunts? I think Taim might be one of them.

If Demandred was called to a meeting of the Chosen on this island, maybe he brought his buddy Taim along. You know, wait in the jo-car till I'm done and we'll get in a bit of fishing? Just a thought.
46. Lily of the Valley
The theory that Taim is an AoLer has been posted, too, but I am of the mind that Taim was a modern day Randlander that Demandred scooped up and trained, although I'm not certain on the time line. He could have easily been a source of information for the Forsaken, and easily put into a position where he would assume Second in Command status from Rand.
This, to me, seems the simplest theory, and the most likely. I just think it'd be weird if Taim turned out to be an AoLer.

Also, I believe the few times we see the Forsaken going to Shayol Ghul, they always arrive alone? Or, when they gather, they never bring their servants with them; their servants/slaves are only with them if they are singular, or if one visits the other. It's always JUST them at Shayol Ghul, though.
Barry T
47. blindillusion

At the Forsaken Tea Parties, the Zomara are typically used.

Zomaran are a type of Shadowspawn created by Aginor. They have the appearance of identical, beautiful young men and women except that their eyes are dead and soulless. They function as servants. They have limited ability to read minds and only short term memory.

From Encyclopaedia-Wot

Oh, there were other Forsaken, but apparently they were all killed during the War. Our 13 weren't because they were having TEA with the DO.

I'll look up quote when I get home, but I'm about to have to go to a meeting.
Jacy Clark
48. Amalisa

Okay. Now I have to wipe down the monitor. Diet Coke everywhere!


Wow! I made the list! Cool!


The Zamoran totally freaked me out.

Wetlandernw@your very kind post back on TGS Spoiler Thread Part the First

TDR is book three in publishing order. It is, however, book four in chronological order - so far, and pending any other possible prequels... But BWS would be that sneaky, would he? *lol*
Jack Diamond
49. violetdancer
Oh, and one other thing on a related note.

If Demandred is using King Roedram (sp?) of Murandy as his alter ego, what does that tell us about Talmanes? Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot.
Jacy Clark
50. Amalisa
Oh, and all the Sevanna discussion on the ACoS prologue thread made me think of this... Have I missed something? In TGS, Amys tells Aviendha that the closest one to declaring herself ready to be a WO when she really wasn't ready had been Sevanna, implying that Sevanna was an apprentice at one point. Avi then wonders why the WO's had accepted Sevanna "without complaint", concluding that Sevanna's "declaration had been enough" and that the WO's had been forced to accept her.

I took that to mean that they were forced to accept her as a Wise One.

But Sevanna isn't a Wise One. She's a widow of a Clan Chief and a roofmistress.. I seem to remember one of her inner monologues where she considers that she's glad she isn't a Wise One?

Not that it really matters now. Sevanna the da'covale is someone else's headache, thank the Light!
Henry Loose
51. schrodinger
okay, a few thoughts... shayol ghul probably wasn't an idyllic island by the time sealing the bore happened. Do you think the DO would let happy bunnies roam where he "lived"? I don't think so. SG was probably in its current state (big scary mountain) most likely due to MAoE (massive amount of evil) coming from the place.

Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."

Taim is not Demandred... due to the wonders of the english language, this does not eliminate "Demandred is not Taim". This could, and I mean could in the most far out of whack sense, mean that Taim could, in the first few books, when he was just a name, have been a random borderlander who could channel. Then, when he is "freed", he is "replaced" (replaced with the deadness added in) by Demandred, and voila, Taim is not Demandred... he is deceased and was always Taim. Demandred, however, is playing the role of the Taim we see onscreen, Demandred could be Taim. I personally don't think so, I think Demandred is with the borderlanders and their army... I'm just providing the logic by which others can argue their case... I can't wait to RAFO.
Cynthia Ahmar
52. tenkuu
cambosabe @ 13 & 16:

I have to admit I neither remember nor understand this business of "copies" of the male a'dam. When was making a copy ever mentioned, and was it mentioned where the actual original one is, then?

I don't think it's possible for Demandred to be Weiramon. For one thing, we know for a fact that Weiramon was under Compulsion in the chapter where Rand killed Graendal. As in, it was real, not a pretense, as confirmed by Nynaeve. Would Demandred let Graendal use Compulsion on him, even in disguise? Would he dare to take the risk? I don't think so.
Thomas Keith
53. insectoid
Still lurking here.

First and foremost: Thanks for the new thread Torie!

J.Dauro @3414: Oh, a docx. I was under the impression that an actual MS Word file would be larger.

Sub @17: BAHAHAhahaha!!

Birgit @21: Well done!

::looks pointedly at Guru Freelancer::

Free @42: It would actually start at 3429. So we're now at 3481.

Blind @47: Heh...Forsaken Tea Parties.
Ambrose Scalvini
54. MagicDragon
The first seal found was protected by the Eye of the World and not found until Rand used the Eye. So one of the Forsaken could not have broken it with the TP as they both died before Rand used up the Eye. So that only tells me that the DO has managed to corrupt the seals making them breakable, not that the TP can directly break them. If the TP could directly break cuendillar it seems that the seals would be #1 priority for the Forsaken to take care of.
I hadn't considered the copies would be out of a metal other then cuendillar, that sounds like the best answer.
The seal gave off a sence of evil when the DO was corrupting and breakig it. The male adam was more like it retained the emotional imprint from previous use. I don't know that it is said anywhere about who made the male adam but I belive your theory would only work it if was made by a male, if a female made it would not be affected by the taint.

Good thing Forkroot isn't as picky about the misuse of angreal/ter'angreal as he is lose/loose hehe.

As for Damandred, since his alter ego hasn't been seen, I'm guessing Queen Tenobia has gotten a new military advisor. I belive Damandred is doing to Tenobia what Rhavin did to Morgase. I belive that could also explain why her troops arn't in the borderlands.
Henry Loose
55. schrodinger

that wasn't wieramon, that was a new lordling introduced when Rand went to Arad Doman. forgetting his name currently... resident gurus... ASSEMBLE!!!
56. alreadymadwithsadbracelet
MagicDragon @54
What difference does it make whether the bracelet was made through Saidin or Saidar? Both still share the same property of being invulnerable to all forces generated from within the pattern, including balefire. Presumably the reverse is also true, that they would be vulnerable to forces from beyond the Pattern, i.e The Dark One and his True Power. But I really need not go far with that explanation. We know from Egwene etal that Cuendillar made with Saidar is white. Where else do we see white cuendillar? Half of each Seal is white. Which would make sense. Using circles the Seals would have been created with a combination of Saidin and Saidar. The Seals still break through the Dark One's influence.

As for giving off a sense of evil, what difference does it make if the Dark Lord was actively touching it, or if it was a residue of previous use? The common denominators are still there. Contact with the Dark One's Power. If simply using the Domination Bands was enough for it to acquire a sense of evil, why is the effect not duplicated by regular a'dam? Are you saying leashing men generates evil while leashing women does not? The sense of evil has to come from the side of the Power being channeled thru the Domination Band. Saidin, with its Taint, which is a manifestation of the Dark One's Power.

schrodinger @55
It was Ramshalan.
John Massey
57. subwoofer
Hello all, had to mush through the tundra to get home:(

Anyways, I would like to thank Birgit for taking the time to compile the data and share with us. I know it was a program, but it is still greatly appreciated.

Yes, every November I go out with a couple of the guys and we let our summer and fall of scouting game trails pay off for us...theoretically. Some years are a bust some are gooders. Depends on my patience and willingness to be quiet- including teeth chattering. No biggie, All typing and no play makes Sub a dull boy. And I am blunt, so it cuts down on my word count.

I am no guru, I am just here for my quick wit and snappy patter, but, if we are talking about the doof that Rand elected to have his mind turn to mush by Graendal, then that particular person was Lord Ramshalan, a disheveled Domani peacock.

Mr. S&N- welcome to us! Not sure about the answer to your question but I figured I'd acknowledge that it is an interesting query. Personally I am of the "Hulk Smash" camp of weavers and am not in for the subtle tricks.

@M A T- I dunno, was pondering, but all I can come up with is dead air...

John Massey
58. subwoofer
er... I see that alreadymadwhentheysaranwrappedthetoilet beat me to the punch. Alas, back to the snappy patter:)

John Massey
59. subwoofer
I was under the impression that women or men could feel the intense emotion from the DB without channeling. Even sitting in the box or whatever Ny and Eggy could feel the pain, so could Caddy. IMHO, I think that it has to do with how they were made and the intent.

@Puff, I thought that all Power items, be they Sa'angreal, ter'angreal are in the class of angreal. Sa are the bigguns, allowing the user to pull in wayyy more power than a normal angreal. Ter are for a specific purpose. Of course I am know to be wrong, often and frequent. I just lump them all together because I really, really hate typing them out. I think Leigh was in the same camp of annoying words in WoT world that one has to type repeatedly. Chalk it up to laziness on my part. And ang... is easier to spell;)

Gotta walk the dog and read the book. Sleep well and wake all:)

Lannis .
60. Lannis
MagicDragon @ 54: re: the True Power, the Forsaken and cuendillar... I didn't say the Forsaken broke the seals, I said the True Power can destroy cuendillar--that from which the male a'dam is made... an act which we witnessed with Rand onscreen when he was trapped by Semirhage.

And the Forsaken aren't running around using the TP... only Moridin is... hence he's the only one with the blotchy eyes... IIRC, the majority of Forsaken POVs we've had with Moridin present indicate that the Forsaken themselves are scared shitless of using the True Power.

I totally agree with you re: the DO's evil leeching into the seals and making them vulnerable. :)

Birgit @ 21: So fun! Thanks for all your hard work! :)
Ambrose Scalvini
62. MagicDragon
I think you missed my point on the seals, I was just saying there isn't any reference to the TP being used to break a seal or any piece of cuendillar.
If Alreadymad is right about cuendillar being white or black depending on if it was made by a female or male (I don't recall what he is referring to) then the adam Semirhage used on Rand wasn't Cuendillar as it was made by damane.

Well I am probably being too picky as I don't see angreal as a class.
Barry T
63. blindillusion
insectoid@53 RE:

Blind @47: Heh...Forsaken Tea Parties.

Yeah, they are typically called Coffee Hours, right? And there's the Dark Friend Social at the beginning of tGH. But as I wasted four hours of my life watching Alice the other day, I had tea parties on the mind. Always did love the Mad Hatter.

violentdancer@45 As promised, if you click you can scroll down just a little bit and read about the AoL and see lots of goodies about the Forsaken. (Oddly enough, what's behind that link has probably been quoted from before, pasted in its entirety somewhere and probably lambasted at some point as a big ole pile of WTF...though I could be wrong.)

Oh, that stems from here.

Also, I realize you weren't asking about the Forsaken in general, but whether or not there were more than just the 13 at Shayol Ghul with the DO. Going by the above, I would assume no. Wouldn't they have also become part of the story of the Sealing?

Also² ~ Are you asking if there were more Forsaken there because the area around Shayol Ghul still resembled an idyllic retreat? Well, while, yes, the area was apparently still a subtropical island before the Breaking, I doubt it was still considered the Westlands version of Cancun, even for the Forsaken.

Also³~ If you're wondering whether or not the Forsaken had servants with them while they were in Shayol Ghul before the Sealing...I'd rather doubt it. I don't think they were there having a friendly chat. They were probably on there knees being mind-slapped by the DO. I don't think the DO lets just anyone in the Uber-Lair.
Cynthia Ahmar
64. tenkuu
alreadymadwithsadbracelet @ 56:

Perhaps the male a'dam is more evil than a regular a'dam because it has more of a complete control over the one wearing the collar. Then again, from what I remember, the evil part could also be due to the fact that the man's madness (from the taint) eventually begins to seep back into the woman (if there's only one wearing a bracelet), and can be more dangerous as with time, the man begins to be able to control the woman as well. This effect is supposed to be diminished by two women wearing the bracelets. Something in the making of the male a'dam must make it fundamentally different from the female version, since the latter works with nausea as an inhibitor but does allow some small resistance from the one wearing the collar.

subwoofer @ 59

First off, I guess I must have confused one fool for another, about the Graendal scene. My bad. :) Secondly, regarding objects of the power, my understanding of them is this:

angreal: allows the channeler to handle more of the Power than they could normally and on their own, up to a certain degree
ter'angreal: made for a specific purpose, whether useful or for mere entertainment, and some are even made for use by non-channelers though most seem to require the One Power
sa'angreal: the main two are accessed with access key ter'angreal, and in general, sa'angreal allow a channeler to use more of the One Power than they could normally safely handle on their own, but to a much greater degree than angreal
Henry Loose
65. schrodinger

the only reason I watched that was because the Mad Hatter was played by a guy from Primeval... best show on BBC aside from Doctor Who.
66. alreadymadfortaintleech
MagicDragon @62
Unless Cads kept the original. Since it was giving off the evil aura.

tenkuu @64
That just brings us back to the Taint somehow being responsible for the evil aura emanating off of the Domination Band. And the a'dam isn't complete enough control? Any resistance is illusionary since the holder of the leash senses everything.
The fundamental difference on why the Domination Band can allow the male to take control of the female is in the nature of circles itself. A'dam and Domination Band both simulate the effect of a circle of two channelers. The problem is that in a circle of one male and one female, control automatically defaults to the male. As in Rand and Nynaeve at the Cleansing. This can be avoided by adding a second female to the circle. As in Jahar, Merise and Elza, again at the Cleansing.
67. Freelancer

Hmm, somehow I saw Torie's closing comment as #3420. Oops. Well, I will continue to reference comments here relative to the total of the two threads...




I watched it. I've seen worse, and for a ScyFy piece, it was better than expected, not that that is saying much.
68. Freelancer
Magic Dragon@3490

The Domination Band is known to the forsaken by that name, meaning it is an AoL object, and cannot have been made by a damane. The Seanchan know the making of only one ter'angreal, and that is the a'dam they use for women. This was confirmed by Brandon Sanderson during the recent TGS tour.


Interesting thought about the color of a cuendillar object denoting which power was used to create it. That has merit.

There is new knowledge now known. We now know that cuendillar isn't impervious to the True Power. We also now know that any weave already known with saidin or saidar can be made with the True Power. Adding these up, what kind of material would Rand be able to create using the weave for cuendillar, but employing the True Power? Perhaps a seal which is utterly invulnerable to the dark one? Too bad that Rand does not now know that weave.
Barry T
69. blindillusion

Interesting musing there RE: the True Power to create a Seal the DO cannot break. It could go a long way towards the belief (by some at least, myself included) that the TP will be used against the Dark One.

Yet, the question has to be raised...if Rand uses the TP again, especially with the knowledge that he is using it, what will become of him?

BWS has already said there are still consequences in store for Rand's unknowing use of the TP. What would be the consequences of knowingly using Pure EVIL?
Henry Loose
70. schrodinger
um... wow. thank you blindillusion for that info back up at 63... some of it blew my mind.

come to think of it, authors have to operate sort of like Aes Sedai when answering questions about their books, especially if more books are forthcoming. speaking in half truths, quarter truths, and omissions (with the occasional truth thrown in) to keep the readers guessing and surprised, even if they guess right.

edit: went to the taim section and found stuff contradicting my previous logic at 51. here's RJ's quote:

"Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. "
Barry T
71. blindillusion
violetdancer@49 RE:

Oh, and one other thing on a related note.

If Demandred is using King Roedram (sp?) of Murandy as his alter ego, what does that tell us about Talmanes? Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot.

That Talmanes was smart enough to see a bad deal rising and pulled chocks at the right time. He said in Attending Elaida, Chapter 25 of KoD, that the Band had finished it's dealings with Roedran...and not before time - I think he was about ready to turn on us.

Or he's living under Compulsion as we speak. I certainly hope not as Talmanes is one of my favorite characters.

edit to add: schrodinger@70

Thanks for the thanks. I've always liked that page. Many of the quotes I've posted have come from reading through all those links.
Ambrose Scalvini
72. MagicDragon
Copies of the Domination Band were made, so who made them? Semirhage? Black Ajah? Elayne is the only AS to make a Ter'angreal since the breaking. It was my guess Semirhage had a damane study and copy it....If damane only know how to make the a'dam Ter'angreal then where does the Ter'angreal ring their Bloodknives use come from? I am going with Brandon being mistaken about the Seanchan only knowing the making of the one.
Don Barkauskas
73. bad_platypus
MagicDragon @72:

If they can make them, then why only use five for the raid? A few hundred of those would wipe out any opponents. It's not unreasonable to suppose that they only have a limited supply which was discovered at some point and they have to ration them against future use.

At any rate, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that BWS is lying/mistaken.
Thomas Keith
74. insectoid
Puff @72: Congratulations, you just posted the 3500th comment on this continuing thread!


Maybe you should get a light-up TOR dingle ball as a gift. ::ducks::

Anyways, my opinion is that Semi knows how to at least copy ter'angreal. As for the Bloodknife rings, I can only suppose that they are a relic of the AoL.
Barry T
75. blindillusion
I was reading through my favorite quote provider (mentioned above) and stumbled upon something Callandor related I don't think was mentioned in the Great Callandor debate of TWoT:TGSOST, Part the First!
JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?
RJ: Yes.
JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?
RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.
JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?
RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

Also, MagicDragon@72 & bad_platypus@73 RE:

The ring ter'angreal the Bloodknives use.

Freelancer asked BWS about those at a request from me. You can find BwS's response in TWoT:TGSOST, Part the First:


Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.
76. Freelancer

Now Talmanes is under Compulsion? Is there anyone left in Randland who hasn't been suspected of being a Compulsion victim yet?



Magic Dragon@3500

Brandon double-checked with Maria regarding the bloodknives' rings. They are not made by anyone of Seanchan. So, either they are being currently made by someone not of Seanchan, or they were already made, and were found by or provided to the Seanchan. One case of his answer on this topic included that they didn't make copies of the rings, either. While that doesn't prove that a damane didn't figure out how to copy the Domination Band, it makes it less likely. And it's always more likely that someone of Semirhage's skill with the Power could copy a ter'angreal.

Actually, with amw's posit that cuendillar's color is determined by the Power used to create it, the Domination Band would have been made by a male channeler. So Semirhage would have needed Moridin, Demandred or Halaran'thel to make copies. It's reasonable to imagine that Moridin helped prepare Semirhage for the ambush of Rand and his Asha'man.
craig thrift
77. gagecreedlives
If compulsion could defeat the oath rod would or could a mind trap work in a similar fashion?

Besides the obvious sleight of tongue involved in avoiding the oath rod (Im not black ajah or even forsaken. Im Chosen Bwahahahahaha) the most practical way to avoid it seems not to touch it all. Why not just have a fake arm created with illusion seem to hold the oath rod but really have the oath rod being held up by an inverted weave of air.
Alice Arneson
78. Wetlandernw
Re: sad bracelets. They are called "sad" for a reason. When Nynaeve touches them in T'A'R she feels "waves of pain and sorrow." Someone tell me: where does the "aura of evil" idea come from? Is that mentioned in TGS (which I don't have memorized and is not yet in the search tools I usually use)? or is it an artifact of this discussion?
Barry T
79. blindillusion
Freelancer ~ I don't think Talmanes is living with Compulsion. I was addressing all the options insinuated by violentdancer.

~My post regarding Talmanes on the aCoS re-read, Part 1 gives my views on Talmanes.~ He read the situation with King R and knew it was time to leave.

As for the love of ascribing the use of Compulsion to all characters...I'm surprised no one mentioned Talmanes before. So many people were surprised by his sense of humor in tGS. I wasn't, but others did see it as odd.
80. Harid Fel
Long time lurker, first time poster (at least since the demise of rasfwrj).

First off, I haven't read all 3500+ posts, but I have read far more of them than my wife or my boss would approve of. That having been said, the one thing that did jump out at me that I am astonished has not been discussed in more detail: BS saying that there was a major hint in books 4-6 that has been missed!! WTF?? How could this learned group of detail oriented readers have missed something that huge? I personally have done a full re-read before every release since LoC, and I accurately nailed Dashiv'angar before the release of WH. (I was also strongly in the Taimandred camp and feel that we got hosed on that one). But how could the entire group have missed something huge??

My personal wild-assed theory, which has not been discussed sufficiently, and which might fit that description, is Mat's ability to channel. In TDR (admittedly, book 3, but...) he is Delved by both Lanfear and Suian Sanche, following his Healing. In both cases it is CLEARLY described that he gets goosebumps which cut off when the Delving stops. Not long after that he goes on his first luck binge, which includes his crazy leap off a TV bridge, and which is described in similar terms to Rand's power acquisition sickness at the top of the mainmast of Spray in EoTW. Later he dices against Comarin, with Comarin's loaded dice!, and feels "threads pulling on the dice". His siter Bode is a known sparker, and he comes from the Two Rivers, with deep ties to the old blood, in a community with a ridiculously high fraction of channelers. All of this suggests that Mat is a sparker.

Interestingly, the Snakes tell him that he will give up "half the light of the world" to save it. Then he asks the Foxes to be "done with the Power and with AS". Is "half the light of the world" Saidin? Did the Foxes gentle him so he could "done with the Power"? If so, when he gets to ToG in the next book, will we learn more about his gentling?

A further corollary to my loony theory: Nyn was a blocked sparker, whose inate ability manifested itself as a messed up weather sense - she could sense when weird stuff was coming. Sort of like Mat's dice? Perhaps the Foxes only blocked him, and now the dice are analogous to Nyn's weather sense??

This sequence of events might fit nicely with BS' analysis of somethign major that happened books 4-6 (or 3-5 depending on how you look at it) and which has never been discussed at length online.

81. Harid Fel
A much less loony theory: I can't wait until we get a POV of Avi in Rhuidean. Whether or not she sees something cool in the glass spires, I hope she takes an extra hour or two to peruse the enormous cache of *greal that is kicking around. Given her ridiculously cool talent for reading *greal that we saw in KoD, I think we could come back with some VERY cool junk.

Corollary to this theory: If, as many conclude, Dem is in Shara, and if he is going to lead his armies out of Shara through the Waste, maybe she can find some cool stuff in Rhuidean that can help the Aiel fight the Ayyad, thereby giving Dem's armies a run for their money?

And another unrelated thought: Can't wait until Mat gets to Caemlyn and starts scrolling through the AOL's version of the Kindle that Avi found. Scholar of the old tongue, and military genius, with access to all the knowledge of the AOL?? Sweet.
Tess Laird
82. thewindrose
Harid Fel - One thing to point out about Mat - he is not much into reading. Case in point, when Mat came out of the doorway to the snakes, Mo asked him where he had heard about this, becuase she figured it was Egwene. Mat said he read about it somewhere, and Rand thought to himself that Mat may have read a book once...

I did notice that he did have some reactions when saidar was used in the early books, but that seemed to have transferred to feeling the disk go cold for both saidar and saiden(but not the TP?). It would be something he would not want for sure(the ability to channel) and RJ loved puting Mat into situations not of his choosing/desires. But I think this is prolly a red herring, Mat is not gifted/punished with the abilty to channel. His TV'ness can explain the luck. And when Lanfear/Selene was visting him, I think she was delving him, and that may account for the prickly sensations - same with Suian.
Barry T
83. blindillusion
Harid Fel ~ Also, regarding the Big Honking Clue We All Missed in Books 4-6:

It was discussed quite a bit in TWoT:TGSOST, Part the First!

In fact, assignments were given out to read through the different plots.

Also, Mat cannot channel. As thewindrose stated above, Mat's physical reaction to the Delving was the same as the physical reaction to Healing. IIRC Rand is just about the only one who has gotten past this reaction, though Lan may be past it as well.

Everything else can be attributed to his Luck, his TV~ness, and his Fox-head ter'angreal.
Rob Munnelly
84. RobMRobM
@82. Yes, Mat dislikes reading and writing for that matter. That was one of my biggest problems with the Mat episodes in TGS was that Mat spent hours preparing a written script for everyone - it is contrary to his nature. Mat is a spoken word action guy. BS should have referenced a Mat memory of arranging theatricals or of developing cover stories for a group of adventurers and then had Mat walk them through their stories in oral form until they got it right - or had Talmanes reduce his ideas to written form for distribution to his troops. Having Mat do the writing just rang wrong.


Edit for typos
85. alreadymadwithdombands
Wetlandernw @78
The Wise Ones say so when Cads shows it to them. They say it's evil and Cads agrees if an inanimate object could be evil, that's how it would be described.

Re: Domination Bands
I'm not quite sure myself, but that's how the evidence points so far. Eg etal have yet to make any black cuendillar. Eg has POV's noting how relatively simple the weave is, yet she has not adapted it to make any color but white. Furthermore it would fit with the common concept of duality that black would have to be made with Saidin.
That said, I'm not sure about the other ones Semirhage brought. It was the Wise Ones and Aes Sedai that concluded the Seanchan were making more. That is of course, not necessarily true. The Seanchan have a centralized government spanning an entire continent. They may well have had a cache of the things without knowing what they were for until Egeanin told them. Tuon did mention how others had tried to train male channelers in the past only to be destroyed by their creations. Perhaps they had not known that you needed two suldam to effectively leash a man.
86. Harid Fel
@thewindrose and blindillusion

Don't you think that passing the goosebumps from Delving off as a tingly feeling similar to Healing is a bit of a cop out? If you read the passage carefully, it is EXACTLY the same as the goosebumps etc that are described when Rand learns of them with Eg and El in the Stone at the beginning of TSR. And besides, even if you can pass it off as the chill of Delving, then what about the "threads" pulling on the loaded dice when he is gambling with Comarin in Tear? Of all the dice games that he has won, including the one in Hinderstrap, we have never seen "threads" attached to the dice. I think to try and pass these things off as TV etc is just the easy way out.

Besides, this ties together the "half the light of the world" issue so nicely!

But on the other issue, I must have missed the posts in the first half of the spoiler threads relating to the Big Hint. Can you direct me to a rough range of posts? I would rather not have to start at the top again.
87. Harid Fel
Re: black cuendillar;

I think the idea that saidin makes black cuendillar is genius. But either way it brings up a question we have never discussed (to the best of my knowledge). Why are the seals BOTH black and white?? If only the Hundred Companions were involved in the plan, and they sealed the bore using Saidin, then how did we end up with both black and white on the Seals?

And even if the answer is as simple as "the guys made them with women's help before the women all bailed and left the guys to do it on their own", it still begs the question how do you get the two halves to the cuendillar? Maybe start at each end with both weaves at the same time, and they meet in the middle??

I see no reference to the making of the seals themsleves in SaSG. They are described as being made of cuendillar, but that's all.
Carolyn Goodwin
88. metacarolyn
Harid Fel @ 87: I had the same question regarding the use of Saidar in making the seals and I also went back and re-read SaSG. I noticed that RJ was careful to just say that the seals were made without making any reference to who made them. When he starts talking about the opposition of the female Aes Sedai to LTT's plan it is said to be because they don't think the seals (which may have already been created) can be positioned properly. It definitely doesn't spell anything out, but I think he was being very careful to not rule out the use of both saidin and saidar in the making of those seals. And, like you, no idea how they could join the two halves of the seals.
Jacy Clark
89. Amalisa
Harid Fel@86

Interesting theory you have there. I'm not ready to discard it, if for no other reason than the irony would be soooo delicious!

As for the "Big Hint" discussion... go here, then Control+f "big clue" or "4-6", without the quotes. I'm not being deliberately unhelpful re "range of posts"; the discussion starts with Aye Aye Sedai @ 1712 and is scattered throughout until the end. :)
Ambrose Scalvini
90. MagicDragon
I wasn't aware the question about Seanchan making ter'angreal was that specific. I belived the use of Bloodknives to be limited not by the rings but for the fact their mission is suicide.

I didn't seriously think one of the male forsaken would make the DBs as they don't trust each other and wouldn't care to find the thing used against them. Though as long as they can channel the TP it wouldn't hold them as long as it did Rand.
Maiane Bakroeva
91. Isilel
AMW @85:

Perhaps they had not known that you needed two suldam to effectively leash a man.

I don't see how sul'dam could operate a Domination Band for channeling, as they can't weave saidin. As we have seen with Rand and Semi, DB doesn't allow a leashed male channeler to weave - the controller must do it herself.
Moreover, according to Moggy, frequent passing of the bracelets would have allowed the controllers to remain in charge at all times. Which sul'dam do as a matter of course anyway, so this wouldn't have been a problem.

Those Seanchan who tried to train male channelers must have tried with free wilders.

That being said, _somebody_ made those copies of the one original DB from Tanchico. Whether it was a damane appropriated by Semi, some DF channelers or even Semi herself remains to be seen.
Ron Garrison
92. Man-0-Manetheran
@66 alreadymadfortaintleech
IIRC, the Domination Band has TWO bracelets. Semi gave one to Elza.

@68 Freelancer quoting amw: "Interesting thought about the color of a cuendillar object denoting which power was used to create it. That has merit."
Hmmm. The seals on the DO, IIRC, bear the image of the Ancient AS - or as we refer to it in this age - the black and white yin/yang symbol - and here as your avatar. For amw's theory to work, the seals would have to have been made by men and women working together - but we know that the females refused to go along with LTT's plan.

Next paragraph: I've always held the notion that the reason the seals were not completely effective was that they were NOT woven from saidin and saidar. How the TP fits into all this is a good question. RAFO.

@70 schrodinger re. RJ's answer:
There are AS answers, and then there are Verin AS answers. This is a far greater puzzle than who killed Asmo. Everytime I read anything with Taim in it, I have to go "if he's not a Foresaken, then just what the heck is he?" RJ couldn't have done a better job at misdirection, because everything points to him being Demandred!

FWIW: Would Ramshalan under Compulsion be Ramshalanadingdong?
Barry T
93. blindillusion
Harid Fel ~ RE: The "pull of threads" that Mat feels when throwing the dice against Comar.

Comar is throwing loaded dice, is he not. What Mat feels is chance causing the pips to fall where Mat needs them to fall. It's either an aspect of his luck or TV'ness.

Read the scene carefully. Thom has just described how Comar throws his loaded dice and then pulls them off the table and replaces them with another set of dice for his opponent to throw. Mat circumvents this by grabbing the dice before Comar can get them. Hence the reason Comar is so surprised when Mat throws a different roll than either were expecting.

As for Delving causing the same physical reaction as Healing.... Delving is a form of Healing meant to find injury. Healing is, of course, the mending of that injury.

And chances are, this is Mat over-reacting. Mat has an extreme dislike of the Power being used on him.
Jack Diamond
94. violetdancer
Herid Fel

I thought nearly the same thing, that Mat can channel. In fact I still have it written as a question in the margin of TDR. And yes, attributing it to Delving seems lame. HOWEVER...

I have since decided that rather than being able to channel, Mat has been Siadared with the dice ter'angreal that went missing from the Tower storeroom when the Liandrin 13 split. It put his innate luck into overdrive; although this would not preclude him channeling. A good candidate for doing this was Lanfear, but now I think it was Verin.

IF we are all proven wrong and Mat can channel, here's my two cents. I response to his request to "be done with the power and Aes Sedai" Mat was given the fox medallion. It not only blocks Saidin and Saidar aimed at him but his own ability as well.
95. alreadymadwithbracelets
Man-0-Manetheran @92
Precisely. Semirhage knew to do that. That's not to say your average suldam would have.
96. Harid Fel

Your description of the scene with Comar is accurate, but I think it supports my point. Mat is using Comar's loaded dice. Those dice are engineered to land with a certain set of pips showing (IIRC its 3hearts and 2 crowns every time). Taveren twists chance -- low probability events occur. But the probability that dice which are designed to land showing 3hearts and 2 crowns would all of a sudden show a different outcome is not low, it is zero! That is why Comar is so surprised -- there is no possible way that the dice could have landed differently. That can't be taveren work alone.

Instead, I think of the "threads" tugging on the dice. He also references wanting to look over his shoulder at something that is not normally there. When Rand first started channeling he always said that the light of saidin was right over his shoulder.
Jonah Feldman
97. relogical
Comar's dice don't have the same face on all sides, they're just weighted. Ta'veren could easily mess that up.

Everyone who's arguing about Mat: you do realize that people can feel cold without a mystical reason, right? Especially in fiction, when they can just get cold out of foreboding or being uncomfortable. And Mat was just Healed, and of course he's cold. He's recovering from an illness, and he's being touched by Aes Sedai, who he doesn't trust. Even if Delving doesn't have that effect, I'd shiver a little if I were having the Power used on me whether I could feel it or not. You're grasping at straws.
98. Freelancer
I'm not able to do the research right now, so mea culpa on that count, but I am fairly certain that RJ debunked any thought that Mat could ever have been a channeler. Also Thom, Lan, Bashere, and Rhuarc.

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

The remainder of what I said @3504 was my deduction. Brandon wouldn't provide any more detail. But if they don't know the making of any other ter'angreal, those are the two remaining possibilities.

As to your final point, there's a question. Do we have any reason to believe that the forsaken are aware that cuendillar is vulnerable to the True Power? Most of them have used it only sparingly, knowing the dangers, and wouldn't have gone around testing it's strengths and weaknesses much. Else more than just Ishamael would have the saa.


I went back after this one. It was Ba'alzamon who told Rand that if he turned he would be Nae'blis. Rand thought it was the dark one. I don't believe there's been a scene of direct communication between the dark one and any but the forsaken, who must go to the Pit in order to hear his voice.
Barry T
99. blindillusion
Alright, because I enjoy this type of thing, I'll go with it....

Herid Fel ~

Here is the instance where Lanfear, posing as Selene, uses the Power on Mat.
Selene's look sharpened. Friendliness sloughed off her voice like an old snake skin. “Suppose? I did not come to you like this, talk in this way, for suppose, Matrim Cauthon.” She stretched out a slim hand.

Her hand was empty, and she stood halfway across the room, but he leaned back, away from her hand, as if she were right on top of him with a dagger. He did not know why, really, except that there was a threat in her eyes, and he was sure it was real. His skin began to tingle, and his headache returned.

Suddenly tingle and pain vanished together....”

Now yes, Rand's also feels a tingle on his skin when a woman holds the Source near him, along with goose bumps, but when has he ever had a headache? Mat had a headache as a result of his Healing and being famished upon waking, a headache which went away with food. It only came back as a result of whatever Lanfear was trying to do to him. Some claim she may have been using Compulsion on him. As we saw with Nynaeve's removing of Compulsion it is not necessary to touch the person. As Lanfear wants Mat to remember his “choices” i.e. do what he wants, it's not surprising she would try this. Also, Mat felt nothing until Lanfear started to channel. But odds are, she was holding the Source during that entire scene.

The next instance is when Siuan uses the Power on him.
“How are you feeling?” The Amyrlin asked briskly as she put a hand on his head. Goose bumps covered his skin. Had she done something with the One Power, or was it being touched by an Aes Sedai that made him feel a chill?

Now, in this instance, Mat feels goose bumps and a chill because he has just been Delved.

Ok, let's look at some more evidence. Lanfear knew Siuan and Leane were coming towards the room, which is why she suddenly ceased her channeling and left. How did she know? Because they were holding the Power. Why were they holding the Power? Well, they're on their way to visit a man who until just recently has been so contaminated by Shadar Logoth's evil that he almost died from it. Who can blame them really? There's no telling what kind of situation they would be walking into.

Now, I add that as evidence because, if true, and they were holding the Power, then Mat never felt a thing until Siuan placed her hand on him.

Finally, we have the dice event:
He spilled the dice onto the tabletop. They bounced oddly. He felt – something – shifting. It was as if his luck had gone wild. The room seemed to be writhing around him, tugging at the dice with threads. For some reason he wanted to look at the door, but he kept his eyes on the dice. They came to rest. Five crowns. Comar's eyes looked ready to pop out of his head.

The something Mat feels is the first instance he notices Random Chance taking a wild swing in his favor. It is from this event that Mat learns the secret of his gift with luck. This could be said to be the precursor to the Rolling Dice in his head. This has everything to do with Mat's luck and nothing to do with channeling.

Because if it is channeling, then that is the cop out. Think about Random Chance for a moment and how it works for Mat. Think about him getting off that ship and walking right past the house the SGs are staying in as three bolts of lightening cast it in a stark light. Do you really want to contribute that to channeling the One Power? I don't.

No, Mat cannot channel. He doesn't need to. He has Luck on his side.

edit: Forgot to add something about Lanfear...opps.

edit: edit: Damn, I typed all that and then remembered Mr Jordan mentioned something about this. Here's a quote from the Mat section of my favorite Quote Provider:
Q: Back on Mat again. Could you comment on whether or not he may be able to channel?

RJ: Nope. Not a chance. Can't do it. He can get anyone in the world to dance with him just about but he can't channel worth a darn note.

Q: He's still young enough for it not to show up, right?

RJ: No he's not going to be... He can't channel. But if you approach him the right way he will come to your birthday party on a Harley.

Oh well. So speaketh the Creator.
Chris Maurer
101. grayfox
I used to participate in the re-reads back before LoC, but work changes (new job) and life changes (the now 11 month old baby learning to crawl) have significantly reduced my leisure time on the computer, so its hard to keep up. And apply the same excuses for why I haven't caught up to this thread and have only ready about 1800 of the posts so if any of this has been discussed or theorized, I apologize...

- Overall, I loved the book...I see why people didn't like it and/or were frustrated with different parts (Perrin/Mat), but I thought it was as well done as could be expected by someone other than RJ. I liked BS' take on many of the characters. The only 2 things that I really didn't like were what I can only term the "fanboy" BS coming out like Suian exclaiming "Bela!" when she was brought out and Nynaeve's comment
Beautiful though Moonlight was, she'd have traded the beautiful mare in an instant for a biddable, dependable Tow Rivers horse like Bela.

2 very roll-your-eyes moments for me. I know we all love ourselves some Bela, but it just seemed really kind of forced and not really in character (Siuan because of horse-hater that she is and Nynaeve since she is supposed to be a good rider, excellent woods(wo)man, etc). Anyway, if that's all I have to complain about...well, I can live with it to get my WOT fix. I can live with all the other minor things like many other people already pointed out like "fish guts", "bloody ashes", teeth gritting, and use of modern terminology.

- Verin's letter for Mat: this is a 2 part theory. 1). I think Verin lets Mat know that one or more of the sisters with him is/are BA, and 2). Verin had to force Mat to wait 10 days at least before he opened it. By doing that she could justify to herself that she will have dealt with getting around the oaths removed or would be dead and could then betray the other BA members. Remember, she said she hoped she could come back and deal with it herself, but she couldn't be sure. I don't have time to look it up, but isn't there a dream or viewing that said Mat was had to decide between 2 sisters for something and the fate of the world depended on him choosing the right one (or something...). Or am I making that up?? This would tie into that theory pretty well if I'm not making it up... However, I guess the Horn of Valere is just as likely a possibility there... If my theory proves out, Perrin, Elayne and Rand could just as easily gotten similar letters about their AS.

- 3 become one thing: I agree with many people's thoughts on the use of saidar, saidin, and the TP and wouldn't be shocked by that being the 3, but there are so many "3" things in these books (Perrin/Mat/Rand, Min/Aviendha/Elayne, the Powers, LTT/Rand/Moridishy, etc) that they could all be red herrings for all we know...heck, it could be the 3 major land masses (Seanchan, Randland, and Shara) somehow becoming one combined force (is that likely, probably not, but I wouldn't be shocked by Shara somehow coming into the mix, especially if the Sharans(?) are liberated from some people believe that's where he's at...). Basically, I don't have a clue, but its fun to speculate, eh?

- Complaints about not getting a Graendal POV for her "death": who says that we're not going to see that POV in the ToM prologue? It might even be in this hypothetical prologue POV when we learn she knocked off Asmodean (if she did it). I totally wouldn't put it past BS to tweak us a little longer by withholding that info for another fact he is probably delighting in our tweakedness (yes, I made up that word!)

- My headdesk moment: the whole Rand-Tuon exchange...I just wanted to throw the book. I realize it makes sense why it had to happen now, but that was the height of frustration for me in this book.

- More Mat: In KoD when Mat buys Tuon the horse, he also buys a piece of wood that he's going to make into a good Two Rivers bow. What happened to that? There was a good 3-4 pages about that in the books (and Mat was so pleased with his luck in finding and buying it) that it seemed odd that it wasn't mentioned, but wondering if BS even remembered it. I know...RAFO.

- Masema: why keep it secret from Perrin that she killed him? Faile is always intentionally pushing Perrin's buttons so why not just say "yep, I killed the scumbag" and deal with the ensuing explosion from Perrin. Hopefully, she at least reveals to Rand when she sees him that it is taken care thing off everyone's plate...

That's all I have for now...will probably have some more comments after I get through a few hundred more posts and read Leigh's 1st CoS re-read post.
Tricia Irish
102. Tektonica

Ramshalanadingdong! Hysterical.


Thank you for putting Mat to bed so clearly!

I've been reading several things on the Forsaken, AoL and Shayol Ghul....and I have a question, gurus.....what does the Bore look like? Where is it? In Shayol Ghul? RJ states that:

"The first two that were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, were held very near to the edge of the sealing, that's the reason they were so affected and twisted, while the rest came out whole and healthy. They were very much aware of what went on in the outside world. You might say they were floating in limbo watching 3,000+ years roll by......the rest spent thousands of years in a dreamless sleep....."

Where were they that they were close to some transparent surface? How deep, in what, were the rest of them? Have I completely missed this somewhere? Totally possible, of course. Thanks for any help......
Barry T
103. blindillusion



Just doing my part. A favorite quote of mine from a series some of you might have read....

All knowledge is worth having.
Barry T
104. blindillusion
The Bore, in a Nutshell, for Tektonica:

Q: What exactly is the Bore?

RJ: Well, it is at…No, I shouldn't say that. It is a thinness in the Pattern that you can feel the most at Shayol Ghul.

Week 8 Question: Deals with shielding a person from the Source, so it has no real need to be here....

Robert Jordan Answers: Info on how shielding works....(In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore....)

Pointless infoplug on Super Fade....

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

Tam: He doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else).

The Bore is a thinning of the Pattern. The Forsaken go to the Pit O' Fire, which I suppose is in the center of Shayol Ghul, to address the Thinness.

As for Aginor and Balthamel, I suppose they were farther away from this thinness than the other 13.

I hope this helps you Tek.
John Massey
105. subwoofer
John Massey
106. subwoofer
Just some random barking here... nothing to see... move along there...

Barry T
107. blindillusion
*looking the other way*

Oh yeah...hmmm...

Damn, are those paw prints leading next door? Crap. Suffa!! Get on it. No no no NO!!! Get a broom and a mop. Sheesh. Someone go get Narg....
108. helo45678
Random but has anyone noticed that when Sammael was killed by either by mashadar (can never spell that) or collapsing rubble in COS not Rand's balefire adn thus can be brought back by the DO in the next book?
Bobby Stubbs
109. Valan
@ 108

RJ debunked that. The quote is "Sammael is toast."

That scene was rather vague, though.
Bobby Stubbs
110. Valan
@ blind 107

HAHAHAHAHA. *stares around to make sure no one is looking at me weird*

Work is so much better when you have WoT...
Barry T
111. blindillusion
Grayfox ~ RE: Bela

Siuan rode Bela throughout most of tFoH (+tPoD & WH) and found her to be the only horse she could actually ride with any degree of trust. Of course Siuan was happy to see her.

As for Nynaeve...well, that's just the way Nynaeve thinks. She always talks about Two Rivers woolens while really loving her new silk dresses. And she talks about missing Bela while in truth she's probably flying 7 different kinds of high for riding such a beautiful horse.

It's just her. She's always claims the Two Rivers is better than the rest of the world because she cannot admit to herself that she's moved on.

I'm still reading your post, but wanted to comment on that before someone beat me to the punch.

edit: To add the other two books.
Barry T
112. blindillusion
As an add-on to Valan @ 109
Q: Is Sammael dead?

RJ: Jordan responded that Sammael was dead as of the end of A Crown of Swords. Jordan felt that the character was a "louse" and didn't deserve a dramatic death ala Rahvin or Be'lal. He deserved a very vague death and was killed by something that he didn't pay attention to.

(= AWESOME ~~ Perhaps this is also the way he felt about Graendal?)
RJ: Sammael is dead. He is dead. He is dead. He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael. He cannot be reincarnated. He is dead.

Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

Ladies and gents...insomnia is just devious
Jacy Clark
113. Amalisa



"Just smile and wave, boys. Just smile and wave..."


Welcome back! Congrats on the new job! And a crawling baby means the end of peace as you knew it until he/she is, like, thirty! *lol*

Blindillusion nailed the Bela question, I think...

Re Black Sister(s) with Mat... Hmmm... There are three sisters with him. Verin was able to sniff out over 200 Black Sisters in her seventy years of searching. There are approx 1000 Aes Sedai total, so 1 in 5-ish serve the DO. Allowing for Verin's admission that she doubted she got them all, despite her thoroughness, and allowing for the -ish, there's maybe a better than even chance that one of the Sisters with Mat is a bad'un. Of course, if so, the one(s) in question would've had to been missed by Verin. I mean, I feel pretty sure that Egwene would have reacted if Teslyn, Joline or Edesina had been on the list; she knows that they were in Ebou Dar when Elayne and Nynaeve were there.

I really hope you're right about the Graendal thing. Her (alleged) demise bothered the hound outta me!

I see your point about the way Faile killed Masema - not that I'm sorry she did! But I expect there will be big fireworks about it when the reveal does happen. Probably right before Perrin heads off at the head of his wolf army, marching to Tarmon Gai'don, and Faile gets to fret about it until he gets back...

Edit: to remove the `
Thomas Keith
114. insectoid
Sub @105/106: LOL. I think MagicDragon @72 got your light-up TOR dingle ball. ;)
115. Freelancer

I never did answer you about the True Power. While I did toss out the concept that Rand could possible use the True Power with the cuendillar weave to make seals that the dark one couldn't weaken, I agree with you completely that any use of the True Power is bad and unwise. I for one would be sorely disappointed if the "essence of the dark one" was a tool used by the forces of Light to win. It should never happen that way, and it should never be written that way.

insectoid, new icon. I like. At least yours, like Amalisa's, is right-side-up. Leigh's is 180 degrees off, with the white flame pointing down and the dragon's fang pointing up.
Chris Maurer
116. grayfox
Amalisa @113:

Yes, it has been 11 months of fun with little to no sleep. The crawling just makes him more mobile and he's into everything. Tough to keep up with the little guy! Anyway...

Re Black Sister(s) with Mat... Hmmm... There are three sisters with him. Verin was able to sniff out over 200 Black Sisters in her seventy years of searching. There are approx 1000 Aes Sedai total, so 1 in 5-ish serve the DO. Allowing for Verin's admission that she doubted she got them all, despite her thoroughness, and allowing for the -ish, there's maybe a better than even chance that one of the Sisters with Mat is a bad'un. Of course, if so, the one(s) in question would've had to been missed by Verin. I mean, I feel pretty sure that Egwene would have reacted if Teslyn, Joline or Edesina had been on the list; she knows that they were in Ebou Dar when Elayne and Nynaeve were there.

My only argument against that and I could be wrong about this as well as some of the timing of things, but in Egwene's musings Careane didn't come up when she read Verin's list. She knows Careane was with Elayne and the two haven't communicated via dreamworld because of Elayne's pregnant issues, so I'm not sure if she knows that Elayne's handled Careane yet. I guess what I mean is we haven't been shown the entire list yet, so it is at least possible that one of Mat's 3 is BA. (I've always just assumed that one of them was black anyway "just because").

Egwene seems to be so focused on the BA that are in the tower than those that she may know are elsewhere (plus if BS did reveal that one of Mat's is Black in tGS it would be less dramatic than if he did it in a Mat-heavy section in ToM!). Anyway, just a theory which can obviously be completely wrong. I like the Horn of Valere theory just as well, but I think a big piece of the puzzle is that Verin has to make him wait 10 days until she's either dead or oath-free enough to deal with the problem(s) herself. In my mind, her note has to have something to do with betraying the Shadow (sneaky sneaky Verin afterall).
117. MasterAlThor

Congrats on new job and new mobile destucticon. My youngest are 2 and 5. I just added a grandson to the mix.

I know what you are going through. Nap time on the couch with them was the most fun I ever had.
Tricia Irish
118. Tektonica

Thank you for the Shayol Ghul recap! Everywhere, but thinner there. OK.

Another mystical mystery, like Tar'Aranroid being in all worlds, and oh, say, heaven....or hell.....I feel a headache coming on. More advil, please Suffa.
Barry T
119. blindillusion

*tips the hat*

Tricia Irish
120. Tektonica
The more I think about the Bore being everywhere, but thinner at Shayol Ghul, and Tel'Aranroid being in all worlds, it makes sense that Tel'A might be a better place to fight the DO at TG.

Also, everyone is cautioned not to go to Tel'A in the flesh. Why exactly? Do you get stuck there? Does the DO have more influence there? Weird dark things happen there and several of the forsaken have made it their lair. They do have tea parties there, as well. Ummmmm.....

Ron Garrison
121. Man-0-Manetheran
@118 Tektonica
I don't know that I would trust Suffa's advil any more than I would trust Halima's.

Re. The Bore and TAR, etc.
Keep in mind Verin's words to Egwene: The Creator and the Dark One exist in all worlds. To trap him in one is to trap him in ALL.
The Last Battle will be fought differently than Rand imagines. (not exact quotes, but the gist is right)
122. First Selector
Amalisa @50:

This is from awhile ago but you asked about Sevanna's WO status. From encyclopedia:

Sevanna, Therava and Emerys show up at the Wise Ones' tents near Cairhien. Sevanna is now acknowledged as a Wise One. (LoC,Ch32)

Sevanna and six Wise Ones question and kill a Seanchan soldier. Therava and the other Wise Ones force her to accept Therava as an advisor. After they force Galina to swear obedience Therava takes the binder from Sevanna. They agree to leave the area and move east. (TPoD,Ch11)

In TPOD chapter, IIRC Therava et al decide they'll no longer be accepting Sevanna as a WO, declare that she is just acting chief (and force her to have a WO advisor).
Thomas Keith
123. insectoid
Free @115: Pretty easy to do when you make it yourself :)

Tektonica @117: I think I'll stick with Nynaeve's herbs; Suffaida's Advil is probably tainted.
Jacy Clark
124. Amalisa

I hear ya! I guess the point I'm making is that, statistically, it's definitely possible that one of the Sisters with Mat is Black Ajah. But also definitely possible that they were not detected by Verin (as, apparently, Careane was not. I totally missed that!) because I really believe that Egwene would have reacted to it if she'd seen their names there - regardless of them not being in the Tower or with the rebels. I mean, she made note of Elza, Galina and whether or not Cadsuane was, right?

Which makes me think that Verin's letter to Mat is very probably BA/Darkfriend/Shadow related, but not those specific Sisters.

That said, I'm leaning towards Joline for the BA - because she just annoys me no end!

The speculation as to the "other things" Verin "set in motion" will keep us entertained for months to come! :D
Ron Garrison
125. Man-0-Manetheran
Oh,yeah. Joline. Either black or next thing to it. And Careane? Isn't she a judge on American Idol? ...or is it Dancing With The Stars? I never watch either. Much too busy in the bunker keeping an eye on Suffalaida.
Barry T
126. blindillusion
Amalisa, sorry to put this out there....

RE: Joline Maza

~ Her thoughts:
She would not have admitted it under torture, but the heat made her afraid. The Dark One was touching the world and their only hope was a boy who was running wild.

-aCoS, The Triumph of Logic

This is from the Who is not a Darkfriend section of the 13thD.

Not conclusive evidence by any means, but it's there. There's always Edesina or Teslyn.

My money would be on Edesina. I want to know why Teslyn looked at Mat with disappointment in the way he cutdown Joline & Co. in tGS. That read as curious to me, though not DF curious.
Jacy Clark
127. Amalisa

D'oh! My bad! Good thing I don't aspire to guru status... *lol*

She still annoys me!

Edit: I just went to the 13th Depository and read the list. Teslyn is also there so, if one of the three is Black, that would leave Edesina. Who isn't on the list. Hmmm...
Barry T
128. blindillusion
Oh, she annoys me too. Most of the AS do, but Jo is just...gah.

~ Oh, and since I'm posting such a small comment...for me anyway...does anyone on this site know how to translate English into Latin?

I don't trust the translators online, but I know nothing about Latin sentence structure.
Tricia Irish
129. Tektonica

Re. The Bore and TAR, etc.
Keep in mind Verin's words to Egwene: The Creator and the Dark One exist in all worlds. To trap him in one is to trap him in ALL.
The Last Battle will be fought differently than Rand imagines. (not exact quotes, but the gist is right)

That's why I think Tel'Aranroid will be the place they seal him away! He'll be trapped in All Worlds! And it isn't what they've imagined the battle to be, yet. Is there a Shayol Ghul in Tel'A? Must be.....ummmmm.

And why is everyone cautioned about not going there in the flesh?

Can Suffaida get in touch with Nynaeve for some headache remedies?
craig thrift
130. gagecreedlives
Can Verin's letters to Mat be about the black sisters or anything to do with the shadows plots?

I though the black ajah oaths prevented any of this until the hour of her death. Thats why she had to take the poison after she couldnt find the oath rod.
Barry T
131. blindillusion
Tektonica ~ The warning not to enter in the flesh comes from the Wise Ones. They told it to Egwene, who passed the information on to Nynaeve and Elayne.

Apparently going into the Dream in the flesh is bad mojo because you leave a part of yourself, a part of you soul I suppose, behind (I think the exact words might have been a part of what makes you human, but I'm not sure. No access to my books at the moment.). Not exactly conductive to a healthy lifestyle either way. ~ And I believe they say it's simply evil to do so.

RE: the Blight/Shayol Ghul
Blight: you can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.

I suppose, going by the quote above, that it's also impossible to enter Shayol Ghul in the Dream.

And, because it's interesting, and it goes along with some of the discussions happening on the site, I'll add this as well:

Q: What happens to objects left in Tel'aran'rhiod? Could an Aes Sedai free herself from the Three Oaths in Tel'aran'rhiod by creating an Oath Rod?

RJ: The only way for an object to enter Tel’aran’rhiod would be for it to be carried there by someone who entered physically rather than through a dream state. If left there, it would remain until it was retrieved by someone else who entered physically. And, yes, an Aes Sedai could free herself of the Three Oaths with an Oath Rod created in Tel’aran’rhiod, but remember that relatively few sisters actually have access to the World of Dreams, and for those who do want to remove the Three Oaths – sisters joining the Black Ajah – there is the Oath Rod in the White Tower to serve that purpose.

I'm willing to wager just about anything that Galina would love to know this little tidbit....

Also interesting:
Q: Can you explain a bit about the properties of the World of Dreams? Such as when Nynaeve forced Moghedien to drink forkroot tea, which caused the Forsaken to fall asleep. But within that same book, the Wise Ones tell Egwene that drinking tea will in Tel'aran'rhiod will cause no effects upon the body.

RJ: It's a strong matter of belief. If you believe something like that will happen to you, then it can and does.

Though he said wounds taken in the Dream always transfer to the physical body. Just didn't want to add to this WOT.
Barry T
132. blindillusion
What is kind of interesting about one of the quotes I listed above is this:

Isn't Moghedien supposed to be the Master of Ter'aran'rhiod? Wouldn't she of known about that little glitch? She should have realized that anything given to her in the Dream would have no effect on her in the Real and laughed in Nynaeve's face...or went along with it and snatched up Nynaeve upon waking.
Ron Garrison
133. Man-0-Manetheran

Re. Tea in TAR: Remember that during her capture, Egwene was very able to enter TAR to speak with Siuan while being dosed with forkroot.
134. MasterAlThor

You may have stumbled on to something there.

And, yes, an Aes Sedai could free herself of the Three Oaths with an Oath Rod created in Tel’aran’rhiod, but remember that relatively few sisters actually have access to the World of Dreams, and for those who do want to remove the Three Oaths – sisters joining the Black Ajah – there is the Oath Rod in the White Tower to serve that purpose.

Is this how Messana continues to hide in the White Tower?

We have to think on this.

Guru's Assemble!!!!!

I just wanted to use that since someone else used it earlier.
Tricia Irish
135. Tektonica

You are always setting me straight! I read a little something, think I've got a brilliant idea, but NO, I've missed something! Damn. Thanks for straightening me out before I go off on a tangent. There are more sources (pages) than I've found, obviously......

So Shayol Ghul is in the Blight, right?, and that's not a part of the Normal Universe? What? Didn't Moriane, Rand, etal, trudge up there to the EotW in the first book? Seemed seamless to me....not normal, but not another plane of existence. I'm assuming it's the same Blight, Shayol Ghul is just in a different part of it. Yes? Am I totally off here?

So if it isn't part of the Normal World, where is it? Tel'Aran'rhoid??? That's not part of the Normal World either, is it?

And if it's not good to go there in the flesh, because you leave part of your soul or humaness or whatever there, and there appears to be a taint of evil...
is that a case for the DO being closer there?

OK, I'm confused....Suffaida.....where are Nynaeve's herbs????
Alice Arneson
136. Wetlandernw
MasterAlThor @134 Is this how Messana continues to hide in the White Tower?

I had the same thought when I read that... I've thought it a little odd that BWS popped out the "compulsion can beat the Oath Rod" tidbit so readily and wondered if that was a red herring. Given this yummy tidbit from RJ himself, it would make an interesting solution. Take whatever Oaths you need, then go release yourself from them in TAR... May need to do some research, if I can find time tonight.

Well done, blindillusion. You are indeed becoming a guru!! And I'm very grateful that you are, because just now I don't have time to do much researching. It's wonderful to just keep reading and find that you've pulled up all the relevant quotes already. ;)
craig thrift
137. gagecreedlives
Loony theory time

The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one. The two must be as one. Rand has interpreted that as an alliance with the Seanchan but what if he is wrong and it means something else.

What if it means the combination of the dragons fang and the white flame. The dragons fang/male channellers representing the north and the east and the white flame/female channellers representing the south and the west. That could either mean Rand himself has to work with female channellers to win which goes well with the Callandor prophecy or could also mean that the Black and White Towers must unite.

Just and idle thought while I wait for the Friday work day to wind down. Thoughts on this peeps?

*edit* I wrote that with the image of the ying yang... errr I mean the ancient symbol of the aes sedai in mind. Not sure if I conveyed that properly.

Until recently the aes sedai were broken but now the white flame of Tar Valon has been reunited. The south and west representing the white side of the ying yang covering the bottom and the left.

The Black Tower is currently divided and I expect Logain in an MoA to unite it. The dragons fang representing the black side covering top and right of the ying yang.

Now the two must come together and create a whole. Does that make sense?
Cynthia Ahmar
138. tenkuu
alreadymadfortaintleech @ 66

Semirhage herself said that the female a'dam allowed for some resistance while the male a'dam allowed for none.

I don't think we're talking about only control of the saidin and saidar, since as evidenced when Semirhage put the collar on Rand, she could physically control him as well. When we talk of the man eventually being able to control the woman, it sounds like the same kind of thing. And also, it doesn't sound as though with the male a'dam, adding another woman will completely cancel the effect, but merely delay it. But it's been mentioned before that an a'dam prevents, for instance, two damane from linking together.

Freelancer @ 68

Well, but would the Dark One allow Rand to touch the True Power again if he thought Rand would use it against him? It is drawn directly from him, after all. Also, a seal made of the Dark One's True Power, I don't know that I would expect it to work very well against its master.

Wetlandernw @ 78

What's the reason they're called "sad", then, in your opinion?

blindillusion @ 83

What is this big hint then, in the opinion of most? Or rather, what are the top 5 favorites?

Harid Fel @ 86

I think they're right, actually. Mat only felt as though there were threads pulling on the dice, and it's not as if our three major ta'veren don't affect the Pattern by threads, after all.

Isilel @ 91

Neither did Rand know how to weave saidar, but when he linked with Nynaeve to cleanse saidin, it seemed to come naturally to him. That's probably the way it happens in any kind of circle, because there is no way that a female channeler would actually *know* how to channel saidin, nor a male channeler saidar.

grayfox @ 101

In regards to the Shara thing, my personal opinion is that given their general opinion of all male channelers, Demandred would have been dead the moment he landed there. Shara is one of the only places in the WoT universe that feels completely untouchable. Ie it's there because it makes sense for it to exist, but it's only there to look at like a pretty shiny piece of jewelry that you can't afford.
John Massey
139. subwoofer
All I want for Christmas is my TOR dingle ball...

Prophecies have a way of meeting their own conditions. The fang thing is as plausible as anything else out there. For all we know, it is a riddle for how to do a weave to get to Shayol Ghul and catch the DO unaware. After all, it is not like Rand can just stroll in with Scientology pamphlets and a bunt cake and say "surprise".

Alice Arneson
140. Wetlandernw
tenkuu @138 re: "sad bracelets" Two-part answer (probably more than you want!): I assume they were dubbed "sad bracelets" way back when (before we knew any name for the thing) because, as I said, when Nynaeve touched them she felt "waves of pain and sorrow." ("Sad bracelets" is much easier to use than "the collar and bracelets of pain and sorrow," wouldn't you say?) Prior to my post @78, I had noticed that there was great discussion of an "aura of evil" with regard to the Domination Band, as it is now known, and a tendency to interpret it in the same way as the "evil emanating from the weakening seals" thing. Since I couldn't recall the source of the "evil" reference, I was wondering if anyone could point me to a textual source, or if the perceived similarity was something that had developed and taken on a life of its own on this discussion. It's been known to happen.

As far as the "big hint," I haven't so far heard anything remotely resembling a consensus. (Not that I speak for blindillusion, and I'm sure he'll speak for himself soon, but since I'm here...) There's a search going on, but no one has found anything they want to identify as "hey, I bet this is it!" The idea is that its something BWS hasn't seen discussed much anywhere, so we're looking for things that look like a hint that haven't really led anywhere yet. I'm hoping someone is compiling everything people are coming up with, though.
Ambrose Scalvini
141. MagicDragon
The forsaken are not all knowing. Moghedien has tormented many in TAR and seen the effects of it. Moghedien may very well have belived everything that happens in TAR is real.

Egwene being dosed with forkroot matters not, being a dreamer has nothing to do with the one power. When Rand uses the portal stone to go to Rhuedine there are 4 wise ones, all dreamers, but only 2 that could channel.

Messana could remove the oaths in TAR but would still have to answer under the oath. She may be able to say she isn't a darkfriend or black ajah.... BUT can she say she does not serve the Dark One? I don't recall if Egwene or whoever was questioning demanded a certan responce or took any one of those responces to mean they walk in the light.
Barry T
142. blindillusion

Tsk Tsk. I would never consider it setting you straight. I'm just presenting you with information you may not have the time to go out and find yourself. And as the resident Gurus seem to be most busy at the moment, which is completely understandable as Christmas/the Holidays is/are rapidly approaching, I simply find myself able to post the relevant quotes...fastest? See: My family is currently in Mississippi with my parents as my wife gets closer and closer to that most glorious day.

As for the rest of your post there at that number... *nudges the rocks* I really cannot help you except with speculation. The Blight is a corruption of the regular world by its relative closeness to the thinning of the Pattern caused by the DO. As such, perhaps the Blight mirrors the DO's intentions and exists outside the Pattern? Who's to know? Because the Reboot Fellowship did cross the line into the Blight...blah. I suppose you could say they crossed into the Thinness upon traveling into the Blight. According to that somewhat quote I posted, Mr Jordan was saying it is not possible to enter the Blight in the Dream. Outside the Pattern, perhaps, equals a No-Go at this station for the Dream?

And for many of my WoT needs, I skip over to this handy little Quote Finder.


Stumble? Nay, nay I say. I didn't “stumble”. I knew what posting that quote would do. **wicked grin**


Yes, I know. The quote I mentioned @131 had to do with something taken in the Dream effecting the body in the Real. Egwene took something in the Real that had no effect whatsoever on her entering/controlling the Dream.

Also, how are you interpreting the quote? It's not saying that forkroot effects one's ability to Dream. It's saying Moghedien allowed herself to fall prey to the “glitch”. Moggy, as the Master of the Dream World, should have known that taking forkroot in the Dream would have no effect whatsoever on her body in the Real, but that's exactly what happened. She drank the tea in the Dream, enough to cause her to become unconscious in the Real, but this happened because of a mild suggestion from Nynaeve. Moggy allowed herself to believe the forkroot would effect her physical body. She should have known better is all I'm sayin.


Thank you. It's been fun putting out all of this information. Happy to give you a break. I only hope I can continue to contribute to this wonderful site I'm so happy I stumbled across.


The Top 5 in RE: to the Big Honking Clue We All Missed? I don't know if I'm exactly the one to try to list them as I had very little to do with it. My thought when it was brought up was the burned Tinker caravan Mat...err, Vanin...found. What did they want Rand to know?

I suppose I could search through TWoT:TGSOST, Part the First!, as you've tweaked my interest, but not tonight. I'm exhausted from a rather long day of beating my 2LT head against a rather foolish COL wall.

edit: MagicDragon@141

RE: Mesaana having to answer under the Oath.

In the quote Mr Jordan appears to be saying that one can go into the Dream, create an Oath Rod and remove the Oaths...and as such, this would abolish the Oaths in the Real as well. So, if this is how she beat the Oath Rod, then she could tell Egwene anything she wanted as she is no longer under any Oath.

Though, to end this thought as the way Mesanna beats the Oath Rod and remains free and clear in the Tower, I will say this: How could she takes the Oaths, journey to the Dream with no one wondering where she went, abolish the Oaths there, return to the Real and lie?

I'd wager a guess that they didn't allow someone to takes the Oaths, step out for a moment and then return to claim they are not a Darkfriend during the Purge.

**wicked grin** Two in one post. Awesome. Even more so because they deal with the same topic. Ain't I a stinker....

Also, I realize the Forsaken are not all knowing. Read my post at 2312 to see how I feel about the Forsaken.

But the Dream World is Moggy's backyard. She's better there than even Lanfear. She knew how to rip a Hero of the Horn from the Dream. She knew how to make a change to one's physical form lasting in the Dream. I just find it rather doubtful that she didn't know an herb taken in the Dream would have no effect on her in the Real unless she believed it would.
Barry T
143. blindillusion
Echo echoo echoooo echoooooooo

Hmm, did I scare everyone away?

Same request though. Does anyone have any knowledge of Latin at all, as in how to translate a complete sentence in English to Latin?
Maiane Bakroeva
144. Isilel
Tenkuu @138:

Neither did Rand know how to weave saidar,

But LTT knew and that was sufficient. Rand is also the strongest ta'veren ever, so he might have been able to do it by pure chance.

That's probably the way it happens in any kind of circle, because there is no way that a female channeler would actually *know* how to channel saidin, nor a male channeler saidar.

Of course there is a way - training in a circle. Semi doesn't weave instinctively when she is in control of DB - she has to remember the saidin weave.

It would be rather bizarre for people to "instinctively" know how to weave the opposite half of the OP, which handles very differently (see Rand's and Egwene's discussion of Travelling) , when they require training to handle their own half to the best of their ability.

And sul'dam do no weaving in any case - damane do that. So, they'd be unable to use Domination Band to do anything with saidin, as it requires the controller to weave.
Chris Maurer
145. grayfox
gcl @130: re: Verin being able to betray the Shadow in her letters.

I think she can get around the oaths to the Shadow because she got Mat to agree to a 10 day waiting period (sneaky Verin) because she knows she'll either have removed the oaths or be dead. I think she could use that as justification for it.

tenkuu @138: re: Shara.

I realize that you're probably right about that. However, that really doesn't stop me from hoping that you're wrong! ha!
craig thrift
146. gagecreedlives

Theres no denying Verins sneakiness but if the 3 oaths discount written lies wouldnt the black ajah oaths about not betraying work in the same manner. Although they have left one ridiculous loop hole so who knows.
147. Planeswalker

guruness does not scare anyone here. :P i know/remember of only two popular phrases in Latin (as this was learned way way back in high school!):

Omnia Vinci Amor
Love Conquers All

Carpe Diem
Seize the day

blind, may we know why would you need a linguist now?
Barry T
148. blindillusion

Well, I want to know how to say "All knowledge is worth having" in Latin for two reasons:

1 ~ I want to create a Family Shield

2 ~ I would like to incorporate it into my next tattoo

WoT related? Same topic as on the aCoS re-read? Sure, why not...

I wonder if the Big Honking Secret Clue we all missed is this, presented by edlihs@31 way back on the LoC re-read post, Part 29.

Did anyone notice that Mats' luck dropped when Rand was kidnapped
Matthew Smith
149. blocksmith
Man...tough keeping up with two threads and recovering from sickness and getting back into work.

First compilation of information. Now burn/shred all records. I really need to keep my job and marriage intact.

I have finished Phase 1 of my assignment and reviewed the T'A'R scenes in TSR. In so doing, I caught a couple of other nuggets that I (myself) have not seen discussed/did not pick up on the previous times around.

1. Nyn meets Slayer (Luc/Isam) in T'A'R, page 454. Now that she is Lan's wife and Isam is Lan's cousin...? Grasping at straws here.

2. Birgitte explains to Nyn that heroes of the horn cannot be touched by the One Power when they are called by the horn as they are not fully in the waking world. They can be touched/harmed in TAR, page 597.

3. Nyn discusses stilling as being irreversible and compares it to healing a severed hand...coincidence or foreshadowing that Rand's hand will be healed? page 84.

4. Egwene observes that Amys has an Aes Sedai-like is this possible unless she has taken oaths on a binder? page 262.

5. In rereading the chapter where Mat goes through the doorway to the Eelfinn (the snakes/questions room), he is in with Rand and Moiraine, unbeknownst to himself. The place starts to shake and the Eelfinn describe the strain as being too great. Question is...what was straining? Their world, the pattern? Something odd here.


I thought it was Sorilea, not Sevanna, but I don't have the book to check.

Freelancer @98+3428

The Dark One also had the ah...discussion...with the Creator at the end of TEOTW.


My thoughts on the Moggy forkroot scene were that the adam, being Nyn's creation, put Moggy firmly in Nyn's control and thus she was was forced to perceive the forkroot as real. She then fell asleep in TAR with the impact of being forced asleep by the drug maintaining.
Matthew Smith
150. blocksmith
Sorry...posted before finished.


My thoughts on the Moggy forkroot scene were that the adam, being Nyn's creation, put Moggy firmly in Nyn's control and thus she was was forced to perceive the forkroot as real. She then fell asleep in TAR with the impact of being forced asleep by the drug maintaining its hold on Moggy in the real world.
152. Cambosabe
Re Moghedien falling prey to forkroot in T'A'R, I think that Nynaeve (who has vast potential in the World of Dreams), by believing strongly enough that it was forkroot, made it so. Plus, Moggy was in shock that Nynaeve beat her again at something she considers a realm of mastery she has over most everyone. Terror makes most people irrational. "Involuntary rings" such as the a'dam (unless he was referring to bonding against one's will or something else I missed) were not in the AoL and so were unfamiliar to the Chosen (as Moridin was musing about when the BotW was being absconded with) so Moggy was not sure of the implications of having one around her neck (especially since it was created in T'A'R and so it was whatever Nynaeve truly believed it was regardless of what a real a'dam does). Same goes for the dream forkroot. If Nynaeve believed strongly enough that it would work, Moggy could do nothing to change it and she knew it. Espcially with the a'dam around her neck controlling her. By telling her what it was, Nynaeve made her believe it too (since by the rules of T'A'R it truly was).

Blocksmith, you beat me to it, but I'll post it anyway.
Barry T
153. blindillusion
@blocksmith ~

Nicely played, sir.

Though would Nynaeve of known to do this?

@Cambosabe ~

Nicely played as well.
154. alreadymadwithASfaces
Wetlandernw @140
It's in TGS when Cads shows Sorilea and the other Wise Ones the Domination Band. Sorilea says "This is evil". And Cads says Yes.

blocksmith @149
Agelessness is only the most obvious indicator of an Aes Sedai. There are others. The calm, controlled attitude. The confidence bordering on arrogance. The wisdom and stubbornness. All these traits are also cultivated among Wise Ones.
John Massey
155. subwoofer
All I know of Latin came from my high school days.

qua est laboro paper?

where is the toilet paper?

nex superne
death from above

As far as the Forsaken. Yes, they are human still and they do err. It is much like vampires. They are not gods, they have just been around a very long time. Over the years if they are not too egotistical, they can soak up some knowledge. That does not mean the Forsaken are all powerful and all knowing, they just have the advantage of years. And being around in the right place at the right, depending on how you view being first in on the DO train.

Jack Diamond
156. violetdancer

You set off a bell in my head!

I've always thought that they (white flame and black fang) must cooperate in order for Light to win at TG, but I had a new idea.

Cadsuane (and Sorilea) teaching Rand to laugh again seemed too obvious for an RJ subplot. What if Cadsuane's mission is to teach Rand and all Asha'man how to surrender the way female channelers do to Saidar? It would be in order to link with women.

There was a conversation LOC between Graendal and Sammael (POV) on linking and giving up control. When men are linked to women they can weave Saidar, as Rand/LTT did linked with Nynaeve.

This fits nicely with what Isilel wrote @144
Sean Banawnie
157. Seanie
Latin teacher taught us from Ceasar's Gallic Wars:

Veni , Vidi , Vici

I came , I saw , I conquered.

We said: Vidi, Vici, Veni.

Sorry , Prep school humor .
Matthew Smith
158. blocksmith

I don't think Amys is AS, if that is what you mean. The line states:

Egwene stared, wide-eyed. They could channel. At least, two of them could. Suddenly Amys's youthfully smooth features beneath that white hair leaped out at her for what they were, something very close to Aes Sedai agelessness. Moiraine was absolutely still. Egwene could almost hear her thoughts buzzing, though. This was plainly as much of a surprise to the Aes Sedai as to herself

I originally took this to be the channeling, but in reread the agelessness look jumped out as something I had missed before...
Sean Banawnie
159. Seanie
violetdancer @156 :

Yes , I think there is a dire need for them to link and wield the powers. I think Cads mission was teaching them to be human (laughter and tears) but will also evolve as she learns some humilty herself. I think Rand will be doing something different. Maybe either through Moridin or somehow on his own Rand wields TP against the DO and/or uses Fain as buffer between himself and DO. But he will need plenty of help behind him , I think, plenty of channelers (M&F)(AS, WO , Damane &maybe even Kin and Sea Folk along with ASH.)for power and also moral support(Elayne& Avi through the bond) so he doesn't despair. Could it be that Logain uses Callandor ? Esp if they find the ring of Tamrylin and it is the other powerful Sa'Angeal that Lanfear spoke of. I think part of Logains glory will be defeating Taim and then aiding in TG.
Just my two cents, anyway.
Tricia Irish
160. Tektonica
Blind@142 I really do appreciate you filling in the holes in my knowledge! Lord knows, I'm no guru. I've been away from the books too long to remember all the details, and although I used to wander around various sites with regularity, that was awhile ago thanks for the updates and the links! Really. And....what glorious day are you waiting for? Christmas or the birth of your own child??? Intriguing......

BTW: I'm bummed you can't get to the Blight in Tel'A....So how can they possibly fight the DO in Tel'A? (That has been an ongoing theme some entries back.....and a favorite theory of mine; as Verin states, "It won't be fought they way he (Rand) thinks.") Sigh. Can these two things be reconciled? 1. Fight the DO in Tel'A, and 2. getting there in the flesh?

Re: Latin...I took it high school, so other than word derivation, I'm pretty useless on sentence structure. Sorry.

Edit:Doesn't "Amor vincit omnia" mean "All love is worth having?" A worthy sentiment, but not what you were looking for!
Tricia Irish
161. Tektonica

Someone awhile back mentioned using the TP to seal the Bore. That is the DO's own power, so wouldn't that be the easiest for him to "undo"? Doesn't make sense to me. I think it's got to be Saidan/Saidar, men and women together, to seal him/it up.

Cooperation and communication (and lack thereof), has been an ongoing theme through all the books. Some sort of coming together of the the AS and AM MUST occur at the end of this series. Perhaps ongoing cooperation will take this new Age into a future of discovery and technology....moving around the Wheel.

All the bonded AS and AM, (TAS/AM and SAS/AM and Rand's AS/AM), is the perfect way to start the working together process. Wait, is that this thread or the Reread? I'm so confused!
John Massey
162. subwoofer
Using Toilet Paper to seal the Bore would be okay if you wad up a lot of it and flush... and hope the DO does not have a plumbing snake:P

Edited for winky! ;)

163. cambosabe
The True Power was given to twenty-some odd people according to Moghedein. She was surprised by the saa in Moridin's eyes when she first meets him. I wonder if that's supposed to mean that many of the former Chosen who were favored by the DO were killed by up-and-coming Chosen. Sammael (I think) believed that the Nae'blis had changed more than once in a single day. Does that mean that the current Chosen are only what was popular at the time of the sealing? Maybe Taim is an up-and-coming dreadlord with ambitions of attaining the rank of Chosen. There are, after all, vacancies in that department. The Chosen are the "thirteen most powerful Aes Sedai who serve the Dark One" and since some of them no longer exist, someone has to move up in the ranks. Taim is strong enough so why not?

Also, what about "the Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon"? To live he must die. To win, must the land die? How did the loss of his hand affect the land? The taint of both wounds? Does that mean Aviendha, Elayne and Min have, in effect, "wed the land" and what are the implications?

Just some thoughts to chew on.

ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem- With the sword she seeks calm repose under liberty: by the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty- motto of Massachusetts

I thought it appropriate.
Don Barkauskas
164. bad_platypus
blocksmith @149:

It's definitely Sevenna, not Sorilea; Ch. 26 of tGS, pg. 393.
Matthew Smith
165. blocksmith

Thanks for the correction...I misremembered.
Rob Munnelly
166. RobMRobM
I always liked Res Ipsa Loquitur - the thing speaks for itself.

Cartegeni Delenda Est - Carthage will be destroyed - from the Aenied.
Tess Laird
167. thewindrose
Scientia omnis meritat habendum.
This is just from an online translator.

So Blind, would this be all knowledge is worth having at any cost? Because, that would make you a good canidate for the DO...
Barry T
168. blindillusion
Tek@160 ~

*tip of the hat*

More than happy to help.

And yes, I realized my mistake pretty soon after posting that. It's hard reading through all the posts at work with a CPT that likes walking into my work section to chuckle with all the NCOs and myself.

As for the most glorious day.... My wife is going to have to have a C-Section because that is how our son was born. So, we hope our daughter will be born on January 1st ~ we both want that day.

Several@### ~

I found something from a discussion thread that might work:

Operae pretium est habere omnem scientiam

or: Omnis scientia meret haberi


At any cost? No. Just that everything one learns is worth knowing, even if it's difficult or painful to aquire. At any costs implies conflict. I don't really think knowledge should be fought over.
169. alreadymadwithlatin
Tektonica @160
Vincit definitely has the root for conquer or defeat. It is the same word root that was carried over into our modern "invincible".
Of course amor is love and omnia is all. It's just the conjugation we have to worry about.
Roger Powell
170. forkroot
It's reasonable to imagine that Moridin helped prepare Semirhage for the ambush of Rand and his Asha'man.
I think it's much more likely that Demandred would have helped Semirhage. Firstly, we know they were working together. Secondly, Moridin was already aware of the link between himself and Rand. I suspect he would have taken a dim view of the idea of putting a Domination Band on Rand.

Harid Fel@81
I can't wait until we get a POV of Avi in Rhuidean. Whether or not she sees something cool in the glass spires, I hope she takes an extra hour or two to peruse the enormous cache of *greal that is kicking around.
I thought Moiraine oversaw the taking of the *greal from Rhuidean (using Kadere's wagons). I think that whole stash is still in Cairhien under guard.

Thanks for the RJ quote re: Aginor and Balthamel. Unfortunately, RJ did not address Ishamael's situation. We know he was partially-trapped in the sense that he was loose from time to time in the 3rd Age, but not always. We see him loose in the prolog to TEoTW, presumably a short time after the Strike at Shayol Ghul.

It would be interesting to find out exactly what the "rules" were for Ishy. I have a feeling that might have to wait until Maria's WoT reference book comes out.
Rob Munnelly
171. RobMRobM
@168. Congrats but why don't you induce on 12/31 and get to take the tax deduction for the whole year on your 09 tax return this spring. Just saying. R
Matthew Smith
172. blocksmith

Now that is a true Taxachusetts resident speaking.

For the record, I congratulate and sympathize with all of the family expansions going on...four was enough. The sympathy is for the sleepless nights, but it is all more than worth it.

Good luck and safe and healthy blessings.
Barry T
173. blindillusion

Well, because my son was born in the Philippines and he only recently got his SSN, I'll be claiming him on this years tax returns. Guess I'll claim the daughter on '10.

But then, I know next to nothing about taxes.

Something WoT related? I got nothing....

New post?
Tess Laird
174. thewindrose
So do you think Elayne will tax the fruit orchard owners higher if or when they will actually produce fruit?
Yep - F5 F5 F5
Is it Friday?
Tricia Irish
175. Tektonica

OK, I understand your tax situation, but if your birthday was Dec. 31st, the whole world would celebrate with you every year, and you would get fireworks and champagne and a big party! Let's get our priorities straight here!

Whenever the blessed day is, good luck! We expect to hear the good news here first.


Duh...of course it's "Love conquers all." Amor was just so obvious, I missed vincit. veni vedi vici.

How many of you had this inscribed inside your old Latin book: "Latin is a dead language, it's plain enough to see. It killed off all the Romans, and now it's killing me."

Aren't there still plenty of Romans?
Rob Munnelly
176. RobMRobM
My mother always told the story of being asked a question in Latin class and responding "It's all Greek to me...."

No, I didn't have that in my Latin book but I do still remember my endings (o, s, t, mus, tis, nt, bam, bas, bant etc.)
177. alreadymadwithrhuidean
forkroot @170
Moiraine was unable to take the entire stash at Rhuidean. She was able to take some with her, but Kadere's wagons were nowhere near enough to bring everything. A lot was left behind.
Barry T
178. blindillusion

Well, my birthday is the day after Valentine's Day.

*wicked grin*
We'll always be able to tell our daughter, "Well sweety, you were this close."
Peter Leventis
179. PL1
blindillusion @128, 148, etc,

I'd suggest posting what you want translated into Latin at the Language Reference Desk on Wikipedia (just type WP:RDL in the search box on Wikipedia and it will take you there). You should get a good response or two in a few hours. Even if you don't have a Wikipedia account, you can still make the request anonymously (although your IP address will be associated with your post).

Edit: specify Latin
Thomas Keith
180. insectoid
Sub @162/3590: BAHAHAhahaha!! ::falls out of chair::

All this Latin talk makes me wish I had taken it, so that I'd know what you're saying ;)

Tektonica @175/3603: Coincidentally, my older brother was born on December 31. I, on the other hand, have the same birthday as Paul McCartney.
Peter Leventis
181. PL1
Oooh, from BwS's latest blog post:
"Oh, and a quick note. TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT is going very well. I had a good week of writing on it, and I'm more and more certain it will be in on time. If that's the case, we'll see it October next year."
Ron Garrison
182. Man-0-Manetheran
@144 Isilel
"And sul'dam do no weaving in any case - damane do that. So, they'd be unable to use Domination Band to do anything with saidin, as it requires the controller to weave. "

So, perhaps the DB can be used on non-channelers as well. (?)

@141 MagicDragon
That's what I was saying. She was dosed with forkroot and it did not prevent her going to TAR because entering TAR has nothing to do with the OP. Bair, for instance, can't channel a flicker.

@142 blindillusion
I must have gotten lost. I didn't know you were talking about Moggy drinking the tea. I think I better stick to just one board.
Cynthia Ahmar
183. tenkuu
Isilel @ 144

Sorry, I meant to say there's no way they would *normally* know. But anyway, think of the way the women were linked with Narishma, for instance. Considering the recent attitude towards men who could channel, do you really think there'd have been much chance for practice, especially given current events?

About saidar, what makes you think Lews Therin knew? I don't think chance is an option. For one thing, Rand isn't Mat; for another, everything Rand has done with the One Power has been based on Asmodean's teachings or Lews Therin's own memories.

Suldam are the ones who tell the damane what to do though.

blocksmith @ 149

4. I was under the impression that the ageless face came from many years of channeling rather than from the Oath Rod.

5. Since ta'veren affect the Pattern, I would say there was a strain on the Pattern from two ta'veren being in there at the same time.

Tektonica @ 160

Might sound a tad cheesy, but what Verin said about the battle not being fought the way Rand thought it would, I had a feeling it might have more to do with the way the Dark One affected people's thoughts and actions than the actual battle itself. The Seanchan are very near what could be considered "evil", after all, for example, as are the Whitecloaks and Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah.
Ed Rafferty
184. BigBoy57
Musing again - having just re-read tGS again - what stands out this time is the totally un-realistic (to me) action of being able to test 50+ Aes Sedai with the oath rod, try them, sentence them and execute them in a period of what? - one morning and early afternoon, 'cos we've got a war to start and finish before it gets too dark!

Mmm, am I being too cynical? It just seems like the Aes Sedai think too much of themselves to make it that easy to wipe out a good percentage of sisters in such a rapid manner. IRC when Perrin got all antsy about breaking Galina's neck for hurting his little Faile he was put in his place quick smart and told Aes Sedai were to be tried and punished only by other Aes Sedai and if each Aes Sedai were to be given their own trial - good lord, TG would have come and gone by the time it was all over.

All right, all right - I know, I know, the action had to flow on, but with the ceremonials Aes Sedai have, it just seems way too short a time span - that's all I'm sayin'.
Jacy Clark
185. Amalisa

Using the Oath Rod to test them sort of eliminated the need for the longer trial process, don't you think? Especially when the Keeper and a Sitter acknowledged (one by words, the other by actions) right there in the Hall that they were BA. I mean, the shock alone - compounded by the Seanchan attack and Egwene's return - would be reason enough to let ceremony go by the board. This time, anyway...

Really, it was a "strike while the iron is hot" kind of thing. If you have a highly venomous snake in the middle of a playground, you don't dilly dally. You cut off its head. Threat removed. (Although waiting may or may not have netted them more. Egwene wondered the same thing...)
John Massey
186. subwoofer
@Amalisa, nope, I seem to recall Rand freakin' out when Avi showed him one of the poisonous creatures in the Waste. She said it's slow but it blended right in with the ground.

If I had a highly venomous snake in the middle of a playground, I'd nuke the playground. I'm no Steve Irwin. Let's poke it with a short stick, while wearing shorts. Ooo, do you want to pet it? It's just a cobra, see how pretty it is?

But you are right. The BA are a cancer. Sometimes you have to amputate the leg to save the body...

Sean Banawnie
187. Seanie
Tektonica @161:
I was thinking along the lines that Rand would use TP to hold the DO at bay and provide a layer between him and saidar/saidan, kinda like a no stick spray.....
188. alreadymadwithagelessface
tenkuu @183
Swearing on the Oath Rod/Binder causes the ageless face. This is why of all the channeling groups only Aes Sedai have it. Despite longer lived channelers living among the Kin and (presumably) Seafolk and Aiel.
Don Barkauskas
189. bad_platypus
tenkuu @183:

Expanding on AMW@188, here's the link to the WoT FAQ, which covers the issue in stunning detail.

2.3.03: Effects of the Oath Rod: Binding, Agelessness, and Death
190. Freelancer

Though I don't care for tattoos myself, I'll see what I can do...

Let's see, Latin. There's:

~ quod erat demonstrandum ~ Which was to be demonstrated.
~ Fortuna favet fortibus ~ Fortune favors the bold.
~ Bella omnium contra omnes ~ War of all against all.
~ Gesta non verba ~ Deeds, not words.
~ Reductio ad absurdum ~ Reducing to the absurd, or the impossible.

And one for subwoofer:
~ Bibo ergo sum ~ I drink, therefore I am.

For your purpose, there's one I've heard before that comes close:
~ scientia potentia est ~ Knowledge is power

If I was going to give it a novice's try, I would offer this:
~ Omnis scientia dignus est ~ All knowledge is worthy

Massive caveat: If the above is incorrect, mea culpa. But if you use it without getting expert verification, non meus mendum.
191. Freelancer

Verin could write traitorous information about the Black anytime, even about the forsaken, she just cannot betray the dark one or his plots until the hour of her death. So it's hard to say what could or could not be in the letter to Mat or the other letters she had.


Yes, it was the Wise ones who called it evil to enter T'a'R in the flesh. And a group of knowitall channeling women are never wrong.


Regarding Mesaana, all of Brandon's comments about her and about defeating the oath rod came to a head when he pulled out the issue of Compulsion, so I don't think that she ran off to T'a'R and freed herself of Oaths. I think she took Oaths that didn't affect her in the first place, because some other preparation was made which left her immune.


Actually, Shayol Ghul is considered beyone the Blight, at the far end of the Blasted Lands.


I don't want Rand to ever touch the True Power again. But, remember that as far as we know the dark one didn't allow him to touch it the first time. I'm convinced that he drew on it through the link with Moridin, though others disagree. I don't think anyone disagrees that the dark one didn't have anything to do with it. It seems that if, under great duress or in great need, he could access it again, it would again be without the dark one's awareness or permission. Just saying.


You ever seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? It's a Bun-d-d-t cake.


Ahh, so you have heard of F-14s.


That was vedi, vedi venial. Or, venereal.


Most of the obvious items of Power from Rhuidean are no longer there, but there wasn't room in the available wagons for everything. All Moiraine truly cared about were the doorway and the bracelet angreal.
Barry T
193. blindillusion

Thank you for the possibilities. While I'll continue to check this thread to see if anyone can come up with something, I'm also going to see if some of my old college connections (i.e. professors) can give me a hand. I'm still on speaking terms with a few of them.

I really like the “All knowledge is worthy” one as I took “All knowledge is worth having” from the Kushiel series by Jacqueline Carey. An excellent series if you don't mind an overabundance of...physical intimacy(?) your reading. But I'm sure by now there are thousands upon thousands of people who have that expression as a tattoo.


Oh, I concur, a group of knowitall channeling women is never wrong.... And there is evidence that the Wise Ones are going on conjecture in this since if you go by the Wise One/Aes Sedai meeting in Summoned in Haste, Chapter 32 of LoC, you get:
“No,” Bair snapped at the same instant Amys said, “We will not teach her such a thing. It was used for evil, it is evil, and whoever does it loses part of themselves." (emphasis mine)

But then, Moghedien went a bit bugshit in tFoH when she realized Rand and Rahvin are in T'A'R in the flesh....

RE: ~ Your comment to Tek. ~ If the Blasted Lands are at the far end of the Blight, wouldn't they still fall under the “apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE” clause Mr Jordan created for the Blight? Or would the Blight be nothing more than the Other Universe Thin Candy Shell protecting Shayol Ghul?

If that is the case, then I suppose the war could be fought in T'A'R. But I like the idea of the Blight, and by extension the Blasted Lands and Shayol Ghul, being an effect of the Thinness caused by the Bore and the Dark One's presense.

RE: ~ Your comment to Tenkuu. ~ I don't know if the meshes with what you were explaining, but from BWS we have:
Q: Did Rand directly have the Dark One’s permission to channel the True Power?

A: It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the True Power without the Dark One’s direct permission.

hey wait just a second...this somewhat contradicts the answer Mr Sanderson gave you during your interview posted@ 2092.... But then, I'm sure this has been brought up before....

RE: ~ Your comment to Forkroot. ~ There is a scene in A Departure, Chapter 7 of tFoH, where Moiraine is looking at the loaded wagons and beyond them at the the glass spires and three rings ter'angreal. I'm aware that you know, of course, but there's the reference. =)

~ Just a small note... Everyone keeps talking about the meeting of Moiraine and Rand and the meeting of Moiraine and Cadsuane. The meeting I'm most looking forward to now? The meeting between Moiraine and Egwene. Now that should prove to be high quality H2O.
Tricia Irish
194. Tektonica
Thanks for asking Free the quote's still bugging me.

RE: ~ Your comment to Tek. ~ If the Blasted Lands are at the far end of the Blight, wouldn't they still fall under the “apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE” clause Mr Jordan created for the Blight? Or would the Blight be nothing more than the Other Universe Thin Candy Shell protecting Shayol Ghul?

If that is the case, then I suppose the war could be fought in T'A'R. But I like the idea of the Blight, and by extension the Blasted Lands and Shayol Ghul, being an effect of the Thinness caused by the Bore and the Dark One's presense.

Yeah, Moraine....hopefully, she'll straighten a few folks out, in a ladylike, graceful, and forceful way!

Haven't read any J. Carey...worth a read?
John Massey
195. subwoofer
@Free yes, I did suffer through that movie. Have you ever seen Half-Baked? Maybe I forgot the "l". Get the DO baked and then push him down the stairs and seal up the Bore. You know where I am goin' here;)



John Massey
196. subwoofer
@Free, 'K, so it is official, when we meet up in the bunker the next tune will be "You've lost that luvin' feelin'" Whoot!

197. Freelancer

Moghedien's panic about Rand and Rahvin being there in the flesh was focused solely on their much greater channeling power vs someone there in the dream.

RE: My comments to Tektonica - I said that Shayol Ghul was at the far end of the Blasted Lands, beyond the Great Blight. So you could still be right, but there's a chance it's not "outside the normal univers". Just saying.

Brandon said to me that you cannot channel the TP without the dark one's permission. But you must believe me that the look on his face said that what Rand did sidestepped that permission. I'm convinced until text says otherwise that Rand used Moridin as an angreal for the True Power. As far as the dark one knew it was Moridin using the juice. Since we didn't get a Moridin POV afterwards, we can't even know that he was aware of what happened in the slightest.


My F-14 comment was a response to your latin phrase, nex superne, because they were the epitome of that sentiment.
Bonnie Andrews
198. misfortuona
Hesitant bat at the WOT Dingleball outside the door, pause, knock, deep breath and I step self-consciously through the door.
Hello my name is Missfortuona and I am a WOT addict. Seriously I’ve been lurking (stalking) you all for a couple of months now, ever since I stumbled across Leigh’s re-read and cheered because I knew I could never manage to finish my own latest pre-release read of the series.
Unfortunately it soon became obvious that Leigh wasn’t going to manage either. I had intended to complete the series anyway before I opened the cover of my new pre-ordered copy of tGS. But it is one thing to hold off reading the prologue and teaser chapter on line, but resisting the book was impossible.

So with equal amounts of excitement and trepidation (I never really believed that TOR or Harriet would have chosen BWS or allowed him to continue if he’d not been up to the job, but still what if he ruined the whole thing) I dove in. There were actual tears in my eyes when I read the familiar ‘a beginning’ sequence.
The book exceeded my expectations. I found myself pulled back into Randland as completely as I have ever been since I picked up that first run copy of tEoTW.
I gasped, set down the book, calmed myself and picked it up again twice, and I laughed out loud and cheered several times. Mr. Sanderson you have exceeded my highest expectations.
I have read TGS twice now, the second after completing my re-read and I found few places where something didn’t read true to form. “Bloody Ashes” Ugg. One character, or even a single group might have used the phrase and I’d have been fine with it, but too many, and Mat, well he used it several times in one sentence at one point and I felt myself cringing.
Otherwise, Mat has gone where I would have expected, and I enjoyed seeing Talmanes emerge from the background. His new found sense of humour? Even a rock couldn’t resist watching Mat flounder his way through coming to terms with Marriage!! And not just to a noble (AHH) but the child-like Empress (Does anyone else see her flying about on a furry talking dragon/raken?) of the Senchen. Plus he’s finally realized that he can’t just sit out the whole final battle thing. First the gholem and now some woman handing out pictures of him, following the insanity of Hinderstap, I can see why he might go a little overboard with the cover your ass plan. ROFL at the final Talmanes as the Warder who wants to be a painter bit.
Verin, ah Verin. You are the ultimate Sneak. RJ/BWS her development and outing was fantastic. I only wish she didn’t have to go.
Rand, I hope that really was the lowest point and that you will be able to begin the long crawl back out of the pit you’ve fallen into. I fear however that it will be far from wine and roses for him in the final books.

Anyway this is my entrance into the amazing realm of the WOT gurus, where every time I have a brilliant thought on the book someone not only beats me to it, but by the time I manage to fire up my dial up connection, four or five people have hashed out the details and shown me why I am only a lowly apprentice and far from reaching the ranks of the WOs. Still I will be back, both here and in the re-read because I am weak and have not only fallen prey to the words of the Masters, but now to the lunacy that is the discussion forum.

Thank you for allowing me my say, now for an actual question.

Verrin's letters - If she wrote a betrayal of her vows and gave them to people with a believed promise that they would not be read until after she was dead then she would not be breaking her oath to the DO anymore than during her chat with Egwene.

Bows and backs out of the room, promising brownies and scotch next time I visit the bunker.
Bonnie Andrews
199. misfortuona
Blocksmith @ 150 and Cambosabe @ 152
I like your idea that if Nynaeve believed that the adam and the forkroot would work in a certain manner that they would.
In regards to the question by blindillusion @ 153. I think she would not have needed to know that T’ A’ R’ would work this way as long as she believed than it would be so.
John Massey
200. subwoofer
@Free- ahhhh- funny that, when I was in jump school, that was our motto. I am thinking it was pretty common with all the KAaTN groups out there. Got it tattooed on my arm. But we're still on for the singing right :)

@Mis- welcome! Anybody that brings liquor and food will always get the warmest of greetings. As far as your question, it depends on intent. Keep in mind that Verin took a whole series of notes on every BA in the Tower had the time to write it all in code and have a handy dandy rosetta stone kicking around to help with translation. Not to mention the ter'angreal-I hate spelling- to hide them both. If there was any threat to oath breaking, that would be the first test of the limits of the DO oath. I think that once that was tried out, the rest is duck soup.

Edit- whoot!!!! 2 hunny! Whoot!!!! back to your regular scheduled broadcast...

Bonnie Andrews
201. misfortuona
@sub thanks for the welcome. I had sort of sensed that gifts eased the way. Anyway it is funny how the obvious sometimes slips by while the obscure catches our attention.
Tricia Irish
202. Tektonica
Welcome misfortuona! You may, single handedly, make us like the name....
Fortuona, that is.

Good thoughts and an obvious devotee.
Barry T
203. blindillusion

Isn't speculation fun? And the word "beyond" is simply a relative term for distance. Beyond the Blight are the Blasted Lands and at a greater distance is Shayol Ghul. My thought deals with all three of these places and their relation to the Thinness caused by the Bore and the DO's presence in the world. You're speaking geographical terms, yes?

And your comment of Moghedien's fear of Rand and Rahvin being able to channel more strongly is true (I should actually read my references before I post them, I suppose), which actually aids Tek's thougths that the Dream may be a fitting place for the Final Showdown, i.e. a strong channeling ability and the manipulation of the Dream that is possible whether one Dreams themself there or goes in the flesh.

Now, if only we can get a clear cut answer on wether or not one is able to enter Shayol Ghul in the Dream.... Are any of the Dream sequences Ishamael, and later Moirdin, has with Rand located in the (gah, but I hate to say this as is sounds foolish) Dream Shayol Ghul, or do each of those instances take place in contructs created by Ishydin?

Re: Rand using the True Power. Oh, I agree with you that Rand used Moirdin to channel the True Power. As I said in my post, I didn't know if it meshed with what you were explaining to Teknuu. I simply brought it up because Mr Sanderson seems to have given two answers to the same question.

@Misfortuna RE: Nynaeve. ~ Interesting thought. But the question is, who has to believe?

According to the quote by Mr Jordan, the person the subtance (forkroot in this case) is being given to has to believe it will have an effect on the physical body. But with the a'dam in the mix perhaps Nynaeve is the only one who has to belive.

Nicely played, ma'am, nicely played indeed.

edit: I see Cambosabe had the same thought, but I was so busy on Friday I didn't remember. My apologies.

reaches into bag-o-tricks...isn't
Jacy Clark
204. Amalisa
Welcome, Misfortuona! The natives are friendly, the gurus enlightening, and the bunker is well-stocked with food, drink and lots of things to entertain. (BTW, are we getting a Wii?)

RE Nynaeve, Moghedien and the forkroot in T'a'r... Considering RJ's quote, Moggie appeared more than willing to accept the forkroot as the real deal. She'd have bought into just about anything if it meant Nynaeve wasn't going to kill her on the spot!

I wonder, though... did Nynaeve create something real when she conjured the forkroot tea? The a'dam was apparently real - according to TFoH, "the silver collar rang as it hit the floortiles" when she released Moggie. Why couldn't the forkroot tea also be real? Yes, I remember that Egwene mused that one could die of thirst "drinking" tea in T'a'r, but that tea was a prop, a courtesy, really, for meeting with the WO's. Nynaeve needed the forkroot to be real - and we all know how key "need" is in Tel'aran'rhiod.
Bonnie Andrews
205. misfortuona
Blind and Amalisa. Thank you for making me feel welcome.
Amalisa's comment about need being the key to making the adam real much more eloquently stated my idea.

Related but separate. What do we make of the fact that neither Moridin nor Rand knew how Rand had come to the meeting in A Place to Begin?
Is there some need for the two of them to, I don't know, 'bond' before the FB?
Jacy Clark
206. Amalisa

Heh. Then I won't tell you the story of killing a snake with a tea glass and a napkin.
John Massey
207. subwoofer
@Blind203 and 3###? Yes, great minds do think alike. I seem to recall a brilliant mind coming up with a similar comment @3393...;)

@Ama- snake with a ? Geezzzze I betcha poke grizzlies with a pencil for fun. Perhaps swatting a cougar with a rolled up paper. I tried that once, she yelled at me:P Sounds suspiciously like catching a squirrel by putting salt on its tail.

Minus forty outside, I feel like bursting into song.

Barry T
208. blindillusion
Well Sub, if that's the case then you and Tek would be the great minds in this instance. I'm the one building sandcastles, or perhaps tilting at windmills would be a better analogy?

Isn't speculation fun?
Jacy Clark
209. Amalisa

We lived in a house on the edge of a swamp. A snake got in the house, I had a split second to decide how to dispose of it, and the only weapons at hand were a glass of iced tea and a napkin.

I smushed its head.

It was that or move out of the house. :P
Tricia Irish
210. Tektonica

I thank you for your most cogent and thorough pursuit of this idea! Your questions, and Frees answers, are making the physical world of the Blight, Blasted lands, and the "thinning", much more understandable for me. Now, as you say, if we could just figure out if one can get to Shayol Ghul in the the flesh....
Tricia Irish
211. Tektonica
Sub@207 and Blind@208

I just went back to Ye Olde tGS Thread, after waiting several minutes for loading, I reread your post @3393, Sub....I'm pretty sure that's where I picked up this idea of the final battle in Tel'A'R. Thank you!!

As you said, a lot has been written about Tel'A'R and it's hazards, and Perrin in the Wolf Dream, and the dangers of going there in the flesh. Too much to just have it be a dropped thread? Not with Perrin involved, I don't think.
If Perrin ever faces up to what he is, Wolf King, he would be formidable in the Dream.

Rand could use a guide and Egwene has been trained in dreaming! Nynaeve and the other SGs have been there repeatedly. (How about Moraine, is there any reference to her using the Dream? Don't think so.)

And if, as Free states, Shayol Ghul might be reachable in the Dream as part of the "normal world"......beyond the Blight and Blasted Lands where the pattern is thinning, this idea for the final battle might work. It fits with Verin saying that the Last Battle won't be fought as everyone thinks it will....another sneaky Verin obfuscation. (oh, I love that word!) Maybe her letter to Rand will explain something clearly.....hahahaha.

Hey, when Rand and Mori meet unexpectedly in the Dream, aren't they at Mori's place, near Shayol Ghul??? Gonna go check on that....need more coffee....

Anyway, a long thanks for the original idea, sir!

I still like it!
Jay Dauro
212. J.Dauro
Amalisa @209

This one made me wonder. Smushed. I thought I knew what it meant, but to be sure I consulted a dictionary.

Boy was I surprised. What were you dong with that snake? And with an ice tea glass!

(OK, so I went back to smush and it looked much better.)

So I vote we make you the guardian of the bunker entrance. That should keep us safe. We'll even provide an entire cabinet of glasses.
Steven Harris
213. Hexus
Along the lines of 207, 208, and 211 it makes much more sense now that the Dream Ter'Angreal were stolen from the rebel Aes Sedai camp right before Egwene started rounding up the Black Sisters. Apparently the Chosen do not want the Aes Sedai having access to so many portals into T'A'R'....

Vewy Intewesting..

Thanks for the thought.
214. alreadymadwithsmush
J.Dauro @212
I think Amalisa meant for smush to mean a combination of smash and crush. Albeit I'm surprised she managed it without breaking the glass.
Cynthia Ahmar
215. tenkuu
Freelancer @ 191 & 197

Link or no link, I think Rand would still need the permission of the Dark One. He was probably doing enough harm to the world (with the whole food spoiling thing) to have the Dark One's approval, in my opinion.

I think you mean to say that Rand used him as a ter'angreal, since angreal only increase the amount one can channel. :) Either way, I disagree with that opinion. Rand was not even *thinking* of him when he did that, and that's why I don't believe that's how it happened.

blindillusion @ 193

But there was another response from Jordan that all but contradicted this one. Ie, saying that you needed the Dark One's express permission.

Amalisa @ 204

Nynaeve, once she woke up, did actually go put a real life a'dam on Moghedien while she still slept. That's why it's real.

Now for a few other thoughts related to quotes I recently found from RJ interviews. First, there are these two answers, relating to the same topic, that make me wonder:

"Q: Rand has been having the dizzy spells and sick sensations when channeling, despite having cleansed saidin. Is this an lasting effect
of the taint, like having built up some taint in male channelers that won't go away?
RJ: No, it's completely unrelated to the taint."


"Moridin: When/if Rand manages to remove the taint placed on saidin, are the people infected with it cured? Or does their condition remain the way it is?
RJ: When/if the taint is removed from saidin further ill effects are stopped but what has already occurred remains."

So then, if Rand's dizzy spells and sick feelings are unrelated to the taint, and yet he is still having them even after the cleansing of saidin, what do you feel it means? I personally am not inclined to believe that saidin itself has become somewhat corrupted so that even after its cleansing, it still retains some aftereffects. My personal opinion, at this point, is that perhaps Rand is doing this to himself. Ie, perhaps it isn't related to saidin at all. Asha'man don't seem to have any of those effects, after all. So could it be that just like Rand is affecting the land with his dark mood, the land is returning the favor and affecting him with its darkness? Perhaps it's simply that Rand's darkness itself is making him worse? He is described as feeling much more ill and in much greater pain than ever before when he embraces saidin near the end of the latest book, after all, which is when he's at his darkest.

"Q: Was Ilyena Aes Sedai?
RJ: Yes."

Ouch. I mean seriously. That means that even though Lews Therin's plan turned out to be the soundest, and would have worked the best if the women had deigned to join in on the fun, his own wife did not trust his judgment enough at the time to give him her support. Now that must have smarted.
Barry T
216. blindillusion
Tenkuu ~ Yes, I'm aware of that. Hence the question of contradiction.

Though from the quotes I've read, one of the few things Mr Jordan had to say about True Power usage was that the initiate had to want to use it and the DO one had to allow him/her to do so. From what I've been able to find, there was no talk of express permissions. Those words come from Mr Sanderson.

But I'm not the holder of every quote Mr Jordan gave, so, as always, I could be wrong.


On a related note, Mr Jordan did say that use of the True Power would "fry you instantly" if used at Shayol Ghul. If this holds true for the Dream version of SG, then that perhaps answers the question of whether or not Ishydin ever brought Rand to SG for their Coffee Hours of Torture & Distress.

Isn't speculation fun?
Bonnie Andrews
217. misfortuona
Tenkuu @215 two thought on Rand's ilness when using Sadin. 1) It could be a result of his connection to Moridin. Maybe the effect of Mor's use of the TP? 2) If the DR is one with the land, or however the quote goes, maybe sort of a feedback loop. The worse Rand gets the more bad happening around him, the worse Rand gets.
Just a couple of thoughts.

Blind @ 216 IIRC we aren't sure how Rand got to Mor's tea party. Mor commented on why Rand had come. Maybe something to do with T'A'R' itself. DO's touch? Don't know but I don't think an inability to use the TP near SG writes off the tea house at SG yet.
Unless I'm forgetting some other time when Mor used the TP in the earlier books.
Jack Diamond
218. violetdancer
Ever since Rand began see the third man in his head, I suspected there would be a body switch between Rand and Moridin, resulting from their Balefire crossing. This still seem plausible since Rand is destroying his own body little by little. To live after TG, he may need new flesh.

Rand had been getting progressively Darker with each book, and conversely Moridin seems to be "Lightening up". I believe Rand was able to use the True Power because he is becoming Moridin, who has the DOs permission to use it. How Rand's revelation on Dragonmount changes things, I have no idea. It's just another wacko VD theory.

As for the sickness Rand still experiences, I believe it also stems from the crossing of the streams and not tainted Saidin. Rand started feeling it right after the Bowl of the Winds was used. Perhaps that was a trigger.
Tricia Irish
219. Tektonica

Good get on the stolen ter'Angreal dream stones. You're right. The chosen probably don't want AS walking around their Dream world lair. More ammo for this theory....

Misfortuona@217 and Blind@216

Didn't Rand just dream himself into Mori tea party? They were both surprised at the occurance. I didn't think any TP use was involved, but I'm trying to find that in the book now.


I'm with you on the sickness Rand feels. I think it comes from crossing streams with Ishydain in Aridol....didn't it start after that? Don't understand the connection it might have to the Bowl of the Winds?

And Rand does need a bright shiny new body! I do think there's some sort of merger going on with those two.....most certainly a connection, as Mori feels Rands left hand. A few people have talked about that....
Cynthia Ahmar
220. tenkuu
blindillusion @ 216

Allowing and permitting are one and the same thing.

misfortuona @ 217

Since the illness began before the balefire thing, I don't think that's the cause. I also had a brief thought about it before having this realization. And yes, your second idea is what I was trying to say.

violetdancer @ 218

Isn't the illness the same kind of nausea he's been feeling ever since he started channeling? Seemed like it to me.
Jack Diamond
221. violetdancer

I think the two events were occurring at roughly the same time. It's the last chapter of ACoS.

Rand senses something "spiderwebbing" across the void, what I assumed was the bowl being used. That happens right before he goes to challenge Sammael. Using the bowl took some time if I remember correctly. I'm trying to keep pace with the re-read and not jump ahead to check this.
Jacy Clark
222. Amalisa

*rofl* I do love the Urban Dictionary. However, AMWS@214 is correct. (And you know you've arrived when you contribute to an AMW name!) As to how the glass wasn't broken, it was a heavy glass, it had a napkin wrapped around the base, and the "smushing" action was more of a "thunk/grind" sort of thing. Like I said - I didn't have a lot of time to think out a game plan or look for a more suitable weapon.


Yes, she did - after Elayne made one out of Birgitte's silver arrow. However, the sound of the solid collar hitting the floor tiles happened before Nynaeve left T'a'r. She had time to think that Elayne would be pleased with that. I'm assuming that she meant Elayne's earlier speculation that the a'dam would work without a leash connecting the collar and the bracelet.

Edit for clarification.
John Massey
223. subwoofer
@Ama... Sooooo I am wonder if that is a trick you can reproduce during cocktail hour. Just gives me the heebie jeebies thinking about it. The only way I'd get that close is if it is one of those pint by the yard glasses.

@Tek and Blind... well my thought process was this... how does one get to Shayol Ghul? I don't see a hobbit like trek through the Blight to get there. I don't know if Rand can Travel or Skim there, as the DO will probably have something that keeps people from magically appearing on his doorstep so what does that leave? The easiest way to reach Rand was through his dreams so it stands to reason the easiest way to get to the DO is in a dream.

Furthering that idea is that there are Aiel Dreamers, Eggy is a Dreamer, all these people floating around that do things through dreams. Including the Forsaken. There has to be a purpose behind this other reality. Beyond Eggy using it while imprisoned. And if Eggy can use T'AR, then why can't Rand? I don't know what the end result will be, but things are leading in a direction where in order for Rand to succeed, he has to try something different that previous incarnations of the Dragon have not done.

Jacy Clark
224. Amalisa

The complete, succinct story: South Georgia, warm summer night. I'd gone to sleep on the sofa in the den watching "The Late Show". Tea glass, with napkin, was on the floor beside the sofa. The back door was open, the screen door latched. There was a hole in the bottom of the screen, and the snake crawled in through it. My cat was curled up on my stomach, and she woke me up growling. The tv had gone off (timer), the room was dark. As soon as I moved a little, the cat jumped down and started stalking this thing moving across the floor. I was sleep befuddled and it took my eyes a minute or two to adjust. By the time I realized exactly what the cat was stalking, it was just about a foot from the sofa I was on. I picked up the tea glass and, as it reached the couch, smushed it.

Two very important things to bear in mind: first, if I'd been wide awake, I would have certainly panicked and, second, if that snake had gotten under the sofa, we would have had to move. Period. Also, the tea glass was thrown out with the snake because there wasn't enough hot water/detergent/disinfectant in the world to make that glass clean again! *full body shiver*

On WoT related stuff - I agree. More and more, I'm convinced that T'a'r is going to be a really big deal when the Final Battle comes along.
Bonnie Andrews
225. misfortuona
Violetdancer @221 you are right about the timing of Rand’s illness. He embraces sadin without commenting on any unusual effect prior to forming the gateway to Illian at the end of aCoS. Rand makes few appearances in tPoD, and when we do see him he is either already holding the source or no reference is made to the illness. On page 411 PoD, however he makes note that

“... He had to fight the dizziness that gripped him lately whenever he seized or loosed the Power; he did not quite sway in Tai’daishar’s saddle. ...”

Unless I’ve missed something, I can come up with three incidents that might have affected the DR during this time. 1) Crossing balefire with Moridishy, 2) the use of the bowl of winds, and 3) my loony theory for the day which I don’t think anyone’s mentioned yet, Elayne’s unravelling of the gate weave at the Kinswoman’s farm. If I missed this, my apologies.

I am unable to add any worthwhile discussion on the balefire bit, but it occurs to me that the bowl used saidar as well as saidin.
Could it be that because they had no men in the circle that something went wrong and though they fixed the weather, they messed with the land?
Then there is the so called AS weapon that the seanchan would so dearly love. It did a lot of damage, but according to Avi it would be unlikely to have any long ranging effects, however the thought came to me and I thought I’d share it anyway.

I still believe that the problem has something to do with Moridin, especially now that we see the darkness surounding Rand. (Saa anyone)
RAFO I guess, but a year is such a long time.

Amalisa - not usually squimish, but your story gives me the shivers. Any idea what kind of snake it was?
Barry T
226. blindillusion

I do so enjoy these kinds of thing Teknuu, as I'm very aware that “allow” and “permit” mean the same thing. But our discussion, at least from my end, had little to do with the meanings of words and everything to do with the words used.

It was Mr Sanderson who seems to have given two different answers with the word "permission" used in each (several actually. He's answered that question many times). Mr Jordan used the word "allow". While they basically equate to the same meaning, it was Mr Sanderson who seemingly contradicted himself, not Mr Jordan.

point to add: I really like Mr Sanderson and I'm not trying to imply anything negative about him. He has my utmost respect for the path he has chosen. I tend to think he simply read through the notes and decided on a different stance when answering this particular question. But I also enjoy throwing fuel on the fire to watch it burn. **wicked grin** even my Dad calls me a jerk sometimes. =) And...I'm not above sarcasm. Negative trait? Occasionally, but it can also be amusing.


As to the Coffee Hours between Rand and Ishydin, I was not referring to the one in tGS, but all of them back to tEotW. With the manipulation of the Dream being what it is, I don't rightly recall if every instance was Ishy showing his own prowess in the Dream or if he channeled during any of those scenes. I also wonder if any of then took place in the Dream version of SG or if they all occurred in constructs created by Ishydin.


As to Rand's sickness.... As I haven't read the books past LoC that many times I am hoping one of the resident gurus can provide some light on this issue. I have always seen it as Rand's nausea from channeling came a result of the taint, which has been compacted by the Crossing of the Streams incident to such an extreme that now he cannot even grasp the source without extreme nausea, even though the Taint has been Cleansed. Channeling is no longer an adventure that begins in a cesspit for Rand, but the nausea has only gotten progressively worse up to the point where, in tGS, Rand, well, we all saw what happened in Ebou Dar.

~~ Amalisa ~ agreed. T'A'R will play an important role in the Final Showdown.

~~ I just like pointing things out for discussion. Maybe I should change my newly added tagline to: Making statements, not stating fact. But then, I like:

Isn't speculation fun?

=) Happy Sunday all. And the Saints won!! Woot Woot!!
Alice Arneson
227. Wetlandernw
tenkuu @215: I'm curious as to why you think Rand would have to be consciously thinking of Moridin to draw the TP through him. It's pretty clear that he used the TP, and per Freelancer's conversation with BWS:
Q. Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?

A. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.
So Rand drew it somehow without the DO's permission. What do you suggest as an alternative to drawing it via Moridin?

Regarding the dizziness: general consensus is that Rand's dizzy spells stem from when he and Moridin crossed their streams of balefire (Rand's with OP, Moridin's with TP) in Shadar Logoth. IIRC, this has not been confirmed by RJ or Team Jordan, but it is quite widely held. Given the description of what happened there, and the reactions of each when the streams crossed, Occam's Razor would indicate this as the most probable source of Rand's dizziness. Someone over on theoryland posted a theory about the ongoing effort of the two balefire streams trying to eradicate one another having a long-term effect on the pattern which can only end when one of them dies; while I wasn't convinced of the overall theory (though it has its points) it is interesting to consider. Given what balefire does, having two very powerful streams going, and based on opposing Powers on top of it all, it would be quite reasonable to assume that there would be some spectacular effects when they hit each other.

Oh, and note that in the quote above, BWS does not deny that Rand's link with Moridin comes from the Shadar Logoth event, in case you find that relevant.

Amalisa - you're amazing. I'm with J.Dauro on designating you Guardian of the Bunker. Wow!
Tricia Irish
228. Tektonica
Had a double post, but couldn't get rid of the number???
Tricia Irish
229. Tektonica
There is a wonderful essay in the 13th D about the Arthurian legend and how it pertains to the WOT, story and characters. (I don't know how to put in links, so someone, HELP, please!)

There are many sacred objects in the Arthurian legend that parallel several in the WOT. One of them is a bowl.

Rand as a knight/champion of the Goddess, Earth Mother, The Fisher King, is one with the Land. When he goes off the rails, gets bleak, the darkness of Moridan and the DO affect him, the Land withers. The use of the Bowl of the Winds could also affect him, as it affects the Land.

Hadn't thought of that one before. The use of the Bowl, and the crossing of streams with Ishydin in Aridol, might go a long way towards explaining his enhanced nausea when using the OP.

Amalisa@224...Whew, what a story, er, nightmare! A picture well painted. Yikes. We are lucky to have you, brave lady! Have you considered the Green?

I'm looking into a few myths for clues to TG and fighting in Tel'A'R.....later.....
John Massey
230. subwoofer
@Amalisa- reminds me of an experience I had back in the day... Was a hot August night, my house at the time was build in 1947(old windows, useless house) and my roommate made borscht on the hottest day of the year. Suffice it to say, we had no A/C and you could cook an egg on my kitchen table. Had the front and back door open for a draft and went to bed. Some time at night I woke up for whatever reason and saw the outline of a guy at my door. Not really connecting the dots in my sleep fuddled mind I figured it was my roommate and asked what he wanted. He said he was waiting for his room. It occurred to me this was not my roommate and I asked "what room? You obviously don't live here." He said for me to ask the land lord, I told him I was the land lord. I threw him out and went back to bed.

I didn't think much of it till the next morning when I found a pile of cigarette butts on my kitchen table which the guy obviously piled and went through for hours. Didn't really phase me because, at that time, I could move pretty much anything I put my hands on so I thought no biggie, meanwhile my girlfriend freaked out. Meh. It is funny what makes a grown man run screaming into the night as compared to what bugs the female mind.

For all intents and purposes, at least from the example of current members, the Greens are pansies. I hope they cowboy up when things hit the fan, because currently, I am not impressed with them. When Eggy has to drawn on the help of the novices because the rest of the AS are too busy fronting, it really disappoints me. I do like the idea of Battle Ajah, I think they could learn from the Asha'men though, on how to kick a little.

On another front, with Eggy turning around the Tower, what are the chances that there will be cooperation with the Black Tower rather than the Dragon feeling the wrath of the Amrylin? She does know Rand and Eggy is not entrenched in outdated Tower practices. And she can talk to Ny to boot to confirm that Sadin is cleansed. I am very curious to see if all this posturing is for naught and a spirit of teamwork springs up from the next gen here.

Barry T
231. blindillusion
RE:~ The Bunker don't really have anything Wheel of Time related

We now have a worthy Guardian of the Bunker, if she wishes to take the position, of course. Could be dangerous. No telling what's brewing in R.Fife's TP created Bunker....

We have a, well, I guess the term maid applies, though she's not very good and is currently receiving a second set of instructions from Narg.

Should we find other positions to fill? Could be something amusing to keep the thread lively until Christmas, I suppose.

First position? We're going to need an Emissary to Subwoofer's Bunker O' Solitude. Have to keep things friendly.

And just how big is the Bunker? We talking World War II, hide from the Nuclear Blast, big. Or are we talking Al-Masjid al-Haram big?

Anyway, just a thought.... I'm surprised RobM² hasn't thought of it.

Isn't speculation fun?
Thomas Keith
232. insectoid
Blind @231/3659: Well, a few suggestions:

- DJ. (Per ACoS#1, we all have very different tastes in music. And per all the monster threads we've had here, varied movie interests.) To keep it WoT-related, I suppose we could give him/her the title of First Juggler, the head of the Entertainment Ajah ;)

Okay, that's actually the ony one I can think of at the moment.

Cynthia Ahmar
234. tenkuu
Amalisa @ 222

I'm not disputing that the a'dam worked in Tel'aran'rhiod. You seemed to be asking how Nynaeve got a collar around Moghedien in the real world, so I was clarifying that. Sorry if I misunderstood.

About the snake incident, I hope you got that door fixed. And remember to thank that cat of yours. ;) I've never seen a snake myself, but I happen to find spiders considerably more creepy. *shudders*

blindillusion @ 226

While I agree that the words are of little importance, I still believe you missed the point I was trying to make, which is that because of Sanderson's contradictory statements, I am more inclined to believe the more logical explanation. By all logic, the Dark One would not allow anyone use of his True Power unless he thought they would do harm in using it, so to speak. Whereas thinking that Rand would have used the True Power through Moridin would be a bit of a stretch, especially since much unlike with Lews Therin, they do not share a soul. Anytime lately that Rand has had anything to do with the man, he has at least seen an image of him in his head, if not a sensation of him. No such thing was described when Rand used the True Power.

Believe me, I greatly respect Sanderson myself. From what I've read about him, he seems like a really nice guy, and I'm ever so grateful to him for finishing our lovely series. I just wish he'd come back to Montreal so I could meet him.

About Ishamael's channeling in Tel'aran'rhiod, didn't he break the backs of some rats using the One Power back in The Eye of the World?

Wetlandernw @ 227

I already did suggest an alternative, actually: that the Dark one, considering how dark Rand was, did allow him to use it while thinking he would do more harm than good as a result. And I don't think it logical to assume that Rand could draw the True power through Moridin specifically *because* any previous time that he's had even a thought of the man, he would have a vision of him in his head.

misfortuona @ 225, blindillusion @ 226 & Wetlandernw @ 227

I agree completely with all of you about the dizziness, but the nausea that grips Rand whenever he channels and progressively gets worse, I always thought of that as a completely separate issue. Especially since he's been feeling some form or other of nausea ever since he began channeling.
Jacy Clark
235. Amalisa

A complete stranger wandered into your house, sat at your table and smoked cigarettes?? Then came and asked for a room?! That's hilarious!! I'd say that trumps the snake adventure hands down!! *rofl*


I'm sorry. Perhaps I misunderstood you (and the discussion prior to my input). I thought the question was whether or not the forkroot tea in T'a'r put Moggie out because it was the real thing, or if it was just because she believed it would. I was using the fact that Nynaeve had made an a'dam (in T'a'r) that had substance enough to clatter when it hit the floor as evidence that the forkroot tea might also be genuine.

Oh, that house/door is ten years and three states gone! The cat, Missy, has also passed away, unfortunately. She was a wee bit psycho but she loved me, and that's all that mattered... :)

And I really, really, really hate spiders! So if a spider gets in the bunker, y'all are on your own!! Otherwise, I humbly accept the "Guardian of the Bunker" post. Just bring me snacks, drinks and books to read and I'll watch the door. *lol*
Barry T
236. blindillusion
Tenkuu: RE:~ the Quotes both of us have mentioned.

I believe we were always making separate points. But for me, the bantering of words has always been quite fun as words are a passion of mine. You seem to enjoy it as well, which is why I prolonged the discussion.

RE:~ Rand.

I've always seen his dizzyness caused by the Taint as finding its end once the Taint was Cleansed. After all, once the Taint was Cleansed, there was no longer any filth to channel through. But the nausea has grown progressively worse, and as mentioned Rand continues to see Moirdin's face while trying to grasp the Source. As such, I tend to believe that the worsening nausea is a result of the Crossing of the Streams.

Of course, there is this:
Q: It’s pretty clear now that Moridin and Rand are linked because of the balefire incident. Since Rand used saidin to create the balefire, and now he gets sick when channeling saidin, does that mean Moridin gets sick when he tries to use the True Power?

A: You’re assuming that Rand’s channeling sickness comes from crossing the streams.

But Mr Sanderson tends to be sneaky as well.

Amalisa RE:~ Spiders

The new pup I just bought enjoys stalking spiders (or well, he enjoyed stalking the one I've seen in the apartment since I brought him home). It was the funniest thing. I'll bring Zero around to the Bunker to keep you company at the door.

Isn't speculation fun?
Tricia Irish
237. Tektonica

How could it be that you've never seen a snake? Do you live in a city? Never been to the zoo? They are everywhere in the outside world. Most benign.

Some even slither in the screen door........
Barry T
238. blindillusion
Oh, I don't know Tek...outside of a zoo, I've only seen perhaps 8 or 9 snakes. And I grew up in a pretty rural town in Mississippi.

Isn't speculation fun?
Matthew Smith
239. blocksmith
ATM@188+3428 and Bad_Platypus@189+3428

So...did I actually find something with Amys and the Ageless look ? (getting hopes up...excitement building...)

Or...not really (coming back down to earth)?


The crossing of the streams at Shadar Logoth was also where I remembered the first dizzyness episode and I always linked that to Rand's future issues with equilibrium when channelling.

I think the snake and the stranger story put my squirrel on the stove eating my wife's apple pie story to shame. All I did was open the front door and run at it...took off like a bolt of lightning. Course than my wife spent the next week dis-infecting the kitchen. And yes, my pup loves stalking spiders...her favorite pass time besides begging us to throw her toys.
Tricia Irish
240. Tektonica
Blind@238 and Blocksmith@239

I grew up in the midwest and we used to catch Garter snakes for fun. They were under practically every rock you turned over. Being a girl in an all boy neighborhood, I learned to love the creepy crawlies or I would've been tormented by my playmates.

Now I thank them as I dodge the lizards, land crabs and LARGE snake critters that lurk down here in the Florida swamp. (In our yard, only one resident 4 ft. black guy, but there are coral snakes too! Fun!)
Many people let their pet "anacondas" and "boas" go in the Everglades where they eat everything and get very large. It's an epidemic. I guess this is a regional problem.

Block, love the squirrel in the pie story! hahaha. What a mess he could've made in your house had he run the other way! Sounds like he is a bit of an epicure, though.

New post!!
Alice Arneson
241. Wetlandernw
tenkuu @234 - Let me get this straight. Despite the last two years of immersion in RJ's notes, and having written The Gathering Storm, and half of Towers of Midnight, you believe Brandon Sanderson is still 180 degrees wrong when he says unequivoacally that "Rand does not have permission ."


Based on the text alone, I can understand your logic, though I disagree with it for other reasons. But when the (new) author clearly states something to the contrary, and no one else on Team Jordan corrects the statement, I have to think that maybe he's right, and... gee, Rand doesn't have permission from the DO to use the True Power.

Aside from Brandon's statement, we have been told that the DO is imprisoned outside the Pattern. Until he is free from that prison, I don't believe he would want the Pattern completely unravelled. If he really wanted it smashed to bits, he could have had his minions fling True-Power balefire all over the place and destroyed everything long since. He doesn't want that yet.

So whatever the mechanism for Rand drawing the TP, even if you're convinced it's not through Moridin, it doesn't ring true that the DO was giving it to Rand purposely.
Barry T
242. blindillusion
Thought I'd put this here as the aCoS re-read Part 3 is so new and all....

You know, even though they were published by DEL REY, I'd love to see a re-through of The Belgariad and The Malloreon, by David Eddings.

Not only are they funny and a great adventure, but I see a lot of Belgarion in Rand. I only hope Rand's story turns out as well.

Isn't speculation fun?
Adam Loops
243. Cecero

Ok, I agree with you about The Belgariad but The Mallorean was too similar. I always recommend The Belgariad to newish fantasy readers, but never The Mallorian. Though to be fair, I haven't read either series in 10 or so years, on a re-read, perhaps I would change my mind.
Bonnie Andrews
244. misfortuona
blind @ 242

It's sort of too bad Rand doesn't have an Aunt Pol to straighten him out. Guess Tam will have to do.
I know it isn't Master Al'Thor's style, but maybe he'll offer to box the DR's ears just cause.
Maiane Bakroeva
245. Isilel
Tenkuu @215:

From Budapest Q&A, 2003 via inteview database:

"there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, _because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted._"

So, LTT's plan was hardly all that sound. Even LTT-in-Rand was forced to admit in TGS that it was flawed because the first Seal had to touch the DO, which, incidentially, alowed the tainting.

Not only were the female AS right to oppose LTT's plan, but their refusal to participate saved the world.
Besides, Ilyena probably wasn't strong enough to be included in the Sealing circle as initially envisioned by LTT anyway. And even if she was and if she agreed with him - his plan called for 7 women, not one.

It kind of makes sense though that the AoL AS would have mostly married each other. LTT's famous ex-gf was one too, after all ;).
Jack Diamond
246. violetdancer
I'm heading to So. Calif for the holidays, and sadly my mom doesn't have an internet connection. I'm gonna be stuck dropping in at Starbuck's to download this thread. As this may be my last post till January, I'll try to wrap up my thoughts on this Rand/Moridin/TP/sickness thing.

Wetlander@241 and Tenkuu@234

Here's what I think happened: Following the Balefire crossing (a crossing of OP and TP), Rand and Moridin are connected. Rand al'Thor does not have the DO's permission to touch the TP. Moridin does.

Rand is more and more like Moridin. He is BECOMING Moridin, and vice versa.

Moridin is not acting like a ter'angreal for Rand to channel the TP through. Rand can use it because he is physically indistinguishable from Moridin.

After reading all the posts on this subject, I have a new suggestion about the sickness:

Rand was sensitized to the TP when he crossed streams with Moridin. Now every time he touches Saidin, he gets sick, and each subsequent time it's worse. It's like a food allergy, getting worse with each exposure. He has to use the TP again because Saidin might kill him like a big dose of peanuts.
Cynthia Ahmar
247. tenkuu
Amalisa @ 235

I think we completely misunderstood each other. But no harm, no foul. ^_^

blindillusion @ 236

Absolutely, it is fun, but so many people take offense in a way that's rather silly to me, so I just wanted to make sure there were no misunderstandings. ^_^

And about Rand, the quote you gave me actually cements my theory in my mind, because when someone answers you that you're assuming something, it's usually because you're assuming wrong. But I am still thinking of the dizziness and nausea as separate effects though.

Tektonica @ 237

Actually, I do. But more to the point, I live in Canada, Montreal. I've been to the zoo but only when I was young, and if I've ever seen a snake, I don't remember it. Of course, I meant that I've never seen one in person, but I've seen some on TV. Here we get spiders, mostly in summer.

Wetlandernw @ 241

What I believe is three things: first, we've heard that Rand has been unconsciously causing harm to the world while consciously harming himself; secondly, we know from book 6 (at least) that some of Rand's actions (or the situations he was involved in, at the very least), as a result of my first argument, have benefited the Dark One; thirdly, Sanderson has made two contradictory statements, which until further clarification, can both be considered viable. Therefore, I'm sorry, but you are wrong in saying that Sanderson said so "unequivocally".

On a separate but related note, your cynicism is completely uncalled for.

Isilel @ 245

But we've already been told that the two giant sa'angreal statues were a generally bad idea, so Lews Therin's plan was the better one, even if he might not have been absolutely certain of it. And I think his original plan definitely involved cooperation between men and women. Not to mention that the prophecies, and testimonials from the Age of Legends, seem to imply that Rand does need women to plant the seals, and if not that, then to do whatever it is that needs to be done. From what I remember reading, I didn't see Lews Therin getting all self-righteous in a "none of us will help you" way. That was the women.

So in conclusion, do I think Lews Therin's plan was the best? No, but I do think it was the better alternative to the women's.
Alice Arneson
248. Wetlandernw
Isilel @ 245 - I've never seen that quote before. I'm assuming from what you say that it's a direct quote from RJ. Where did you find it? That's been a subject of much debate, and the direct quote makes a profound difference.

violetdancer @246 - Interesting thought on the allergy parallel. Never thought of it that way before. I'll have to ponder on that one, especially on rereads...

tenkuu @247 - Hmmm. I've been called many things, but rarely a cynic. I'm curious what I said that you consider cynical. None of it was intended that way.

You make a couple of claims here that I can't entirely validate. Please provide quotations or examples for a) Rand's actions which benefited the DO and b) Sanderson's perceived contradictory statements.

@various on the opposing plans for sealing the Bore... tenkuu makes a very valid point that neither plan was all that great. LTT's plan, though they had no way of knowing beforehand, was apparently doomed, since (according to Isilel's quote) if it had gone as planned the whole of the OP would have been tainted. Then it turns out that LDP's "great sa'angreal" plan took too long in the preparation and was, as they say, "overcome by events" which made it invalid. Given the taint resulting from the Strike, one wonders whether the same thing would have happened if they had been able to use the Choedan Kal. Woud the great sa'angreals have done the job quickly enough to deny the counterstroke? Or would the amount of Power being used have magnified the effect so that the whole shebang would have gone... well... BANG?

Reminds me of a favorite sequence:
"No boom?"
"No boom."
"No boom today. Boom tomorrow.
......What? There's always a boom tomorrow. Boom. BOOM!"

(Anyone recognize it?)

So... was there anything they could have done? Near as I can tell, they really should have put their heads together and worked together to come up with something they could agree on. Unfortunately, they had no way of knowing ahead of time the real weaknesses of their respective ideas, so I guess they didn't have enough incentive.
Tricia Irish
249. Tektonica

"Boom today? No, boom tomorrow."

Is that Nakor in Raymond Feists, the Dark War Saga, book 2 or 3?
Tricia Irish
250. Tektonica

Well, it's not like they're very cuddly or anything. You're not missing much. Never understood people having them for pets?

Look out for the spiders and bugs like 747's up there!

Have fun in SoCal. Nice. We'll miss you! Hope Starbucks has a fast connection. I like your Moridan and Rand are becoming one theory. Wonder what will happen now that Rand has had his "lightening up" breakthrough on DM? Will he be able to sever the connection somehow? Any theories on that?

Have a good holiday!

PS: Where is Freelancer? Do we need to send out an APB?
Abhijit Srivastava
251. abhi_sedai
Greetings to all. My first venture into the bunker. Dark Chocolates to all, since we already have brownies and scotch courtesy Misfortuona.

I have a theory for your question on Lews Therin's plan, though am not sure whether it has been discussed earlier. I think that his plan was the best but the reason there was such strident opposition to Lews Therin's plan was because he might have tried to force his opinion down the female Aes Sedai's throats.

Rand had never been too diplomatic of people and perhaps Lews Therin was the same. We also know that how woman in Randland react to any rudeness on men's part. We also know that the young male Aes Sedai were very vocal in support for Lews Therin plan. Thus antagonising the female Aes Sedai instead of convincing them of the merits of the plan. Ergo instead of taking in the merits of the plan they simply termed it as too rash.

Perhaps LTT's plan may have a chance in this Age.

Now one of the Min's viewings about Cadsuane and Ashaman was that she was going to teach them all something, and they are not going to like it one bit. Perhaps it was just civilized behaviour on the Ashaman's part that she is to teach them, which is certainly something none of them like (not just in Randland)

Also due to increased cooperation between the Aes Sedai and the Ashaman, more so after the bonding of 47 Soldiers and Dedicated, which will engender the process. The concept of the Warder Bond was unknown in AOL..

@violetdancer: Wasn't Rand getting sick while using Saidin even before the intermingling of their balefires. The arguement of The Land being one with the Dragon and the Dragon being one with the land, holds sway with me. Now that Rand is recovering and rediscovered hope and purpose I suppose it might make a difference with his handling of saidin as he has found peace and understanding within himself.

Whew, glad to get so many thoughts out of my mind. Will bring out the Wii the next time round.
Alice Arneson
252. Wetlandernw
And on a lighter note, @242, 243, and 244... VBG!! It's funny. On my first time through, I was just happy to have the Mallorean, because I didn't want to be done with the Belgariad. Next time through, it seemed like the same story with a few details changed. Third time, I got a huge chuckle out of it, because I started to appreciate the way Eddings pointed out the similarities (repeatedly!) and made use of it as a deliberate part of the plot. And of course, the ending is quite different.

Unfortunately, the closest thing Rand has to an Aunt Pol is Cadsuane. While there are certain similarities in the two characters, Aunt Pol has a natural position of authority based on her relationship with Garion; Cadsuane assumes a similar position of authority, but without any external support for it other than her age and her "legend" status among the AS. And, of course, Cadsuane demands a lot more while giving a lot less...

That said, I just have to throw in here that lately I've developed a grudging sympathy for Cadsuane. I'm nowhere near 300 years old, and I find myself eye-rollingly irritated by 18- to 22-year-olds with testosterone poisoning. (Well, any age, but it seems to hit that age the hardest.) I begin to understand her insistence on basic courtesy, at least! We, having "known" Rand from an earlier time, are sympathetic to him; from the beginning, he's been presented to us as a quiet, thoughtful, friendly, hard-working and honorable young man. (I just started Eye again, observing more of this kind of thing.) In fact, the way he was at the beginning of the story, Cadsuane would have been quite pleased with his behavior in general. By the time she actually meets him, though, he's been through so much and is under so much pressure (both internal and external) that his basic personality has almost been smothered. Since she hasn't seen this process, she gets the immediate impression of an arrogant, power-mad, (Power-mad?), demanding and rude young jerk.

Not that she's excused, mind you; with 300 years experience, she ought to have sufficient self-control to consider dispassionately what he is going through and develop a better way of dealing with him. Even if the arrogance, etc. were part of his natural personality, its a simple fact that he's not just any young man; he's the DR and vital to the survival of humanity. Oh well. Presumably she's learning. One could hope that her encounter with Tam, and possibly further discussion with him, might help her see the error of the way she's been treating Rand.

I get the distinct impression that BWS would love to make the spanking of Semirhage (and particularly the thought process leading up to it) a foreshadowing of what happens to Cadsuane herself... although it's entirely possible that Tam can take her down a peg or three without resorting to the physical act. Leigh wouldn't like it, after all.
Bonnie Andrews
253. misfortuona
Wetlandernw @248
"Unfortunately, they had no way of knowing ahead of time the real weaknesses of their respective ideas, so I guess they didn't have enough incentive."

Incentive? Maybe, but possibly they just ran out of time before they could agree, and somebody (LTT and the 100 companions) decided that if they didn't do something 'now' it was going to be too late to try anything.
I mean how long was the DO going to just hang around waiting to be sealed up?

"What? Look, someone's got to keep some damned perspective around here. One of these days... boom!" Babylon 5 Ivanova

Sorry forgot the nw in your name. My bad. More lines.
Alice Arneson
254. Wetlandernw
misfortuona - You score! :) I was pretty sure I left something out, but didn't really want to go look it up. I love B5. And don't worry about the nw - it's just tacked on the end because some joker who never posts had already grabbed the username when I wanted it. I'd have thought harder about something else, but I'd been posting (unregistered) as Wetlander for quite a while and didn't want to change much. Especially since we were having such a WET winter here, the name was just way too appropriate. I was beginning to feel web-footed.

You're probably right about the AOL "we're running out of time" thing. It wasn't looking too good for Team Light, which is why LTT didn't think they had time to hold out for the LDP plan. I'm sure there were a lot of other ideas tossed around, and these were the two that made it to the top. We'll never know, of course, if that's because they were the best plans, or just those advocated by the strongest personalities. In any case, they didn't know the flaws and they did know they were getting trounced, so... Boom!
Tess Laird
255. thewindrose
Also, I would assume that there were infiltrators in the AoL Team Light crew, that helped to create and maintain the ever largening gulf between the genders. Just as we have Team dark breaking the White Tower now. We do see competent AS's now, but there are fewer and fewer becuase the DO doesn't want there to be, amd Ishymor is a good servant, who hasn't been completely trapped, and has sowed many plans throughout 3k years.
256. Freelancer

So nice of you to ask, but I'm just fine, no APB required. Christmas cantata weekend at church, some family in for the weekend, a Tae Kwon Do tourney for my get the picture. Just no time to compose a comment, but I have been lurking. Actually, no time to really deal with topical comments now either, today has already been a long week at work, and it looks like I'll be here past dinner time.


I too would like to see two contradictory statements from Brandon regarding Rand/Moridin/Dark One/True Power access. While different answers have been worded differently, I don't believe any of them directly refute another.

I've never seen that quote Isilel provided before, either. Not questioning it, but it brings up a point. If LTT had gotten cooperation for his original plan from the ladies, then all of the OP would have been tainted, and the world very likely wouldn't have survived that. LPD's plan never had the chance to come to fruition, so any consideration of it is long since moot. The truth, then, is that what LTT did, horrible after-effects and all, turns out to have been the best possible result for the Light. The DO sealed, temporarily, his most significant minions imprisoned as well (Ishamael's partial/periodic freedom aside), and a chance for the world to prepare itself for the next major struggle. Sucks to be the guy who pulled off mankind's salvation, and gets lambasted throughout history for it. So what if he did earn the name Kinslayer, the man got the job done as well as it could be given the circumstances presented to him.


What part of SoCal's horrible winter weather will you be visiting, if I may ask? Down here near the border we've been doing our best imitation of Seattle with moderately heavy rains. Normally the ski resorts are depending on artifically made snow this time of year, but they are deep in powder for a change. Must be all that global warming.

PS: Not actually complaining, it isn't bad at all, and we can sure use the water.
Barry T
257. blindillusion
Wetlandernw & Freelancer. For two of my favorite commentors on this site, I wish you an early Christmas. Here's your gift =):

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Q: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” , which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

This come from here which stems from my favorite Quote Provider.

Sure, not a great gift, but it's the thought that counts, correct? Perhaps I'll come up with more as the Day gets closer.

Oh, and I beileve I'm the one that started the question of whether Mr Sanderson contradicted himself. Read Me@193. I've comes to the conclusion, though, that perhaps after thinking it over, and bumping heads with Team Jordan, he changed his stance.

Also, there were the comments where Tenkuu and I found ourselves in a light disagreement as Mr Jordan said the DO's access to the TP came from a desire on the part of the one wishing to wield it and the DO "allowing" the person to do so. Mr Sanderson uses the word "permission". Read Me@226

Isn't speculation fun?

Sorry for the Wall O' Text....
Barry T
258. blindillusion
I'd argue that being Guru is not knowing every last aspect of the books, but knowing enough to know the story. Knowing enough to find the correct quotes, whether they be cited from the books or found on sites like the above. And perhaps most importantly, knowing when, where and in what context to use the quotes.

Hence why I aspire to be named Guru. Working with this site lets me work muscles I haven't used much since college. And I love this kind of stuff. It's always a thrill when someone reads your words and either one of two things happens:

1) They gain understanding, or

2) They find a way to use the words you've presented to stand-up their own ideas, thus contributing to the discussion.

I'd just like to say again that I am very happy I found this site.

Isn't speculation fun?
Tricia Irish
259. Tektonica

You are an are many here. I don't pretend to aspire to anything near guru status, but I am having fun! You all have filled in names, given me sites, pointed me to new sources of info, and taught me how to do italic, most generously and humorously. Thank you all.

I was just telling my husband over dinner, what an amazing experience writing on this site is! Being forced to articulate my rambling thoughts cogently, think more deeply about plot and characters, and contemplate the meaning and myths behind the story, is a great new challenge, and has renewed my love for these books.

And the personalities here! So smart. So funny. Each unique. What a blast!
And Leigh is! Insightful, with a unique turn of phrase!

So, thank you all, and as Andrew always says,
Thank you for reading my musings......
Alice Arneson
260. Wetlandernw
blindillusion - Thanks for the clarification. If this is what tenkuu was thinking of:
It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the True Power without the Dark One’s direct permission.
I never found that in the least contradictory to his response to Freelancer:
No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.
It's all AS-answer-jargon (a.k.a. author-who-doesn't-want-to-make-it-too-obvious-jargon) to say that the DO has not given Rand permission, but there's (at least) one very sneaky way around that limitation, which is whatever Rand did. Whether you believe it was via Moridin or not, he clearly used it; for this purpose, the means is irrelevant. The implication is that while not just anyone can channel the TP, Rand found some way of accessing it that gets around the lack of DO permission. And unless someone has a different quotation, I don't see any way to wiggle around the unequivocal (just for you, tenkuu ;) statement that Rand doesn't have the DO's permission. If anyone had a chance to ask, it would be interesting to hear the BWS response to
Is the DO aware that Rand used the True Power?
John Massey
261. subwoofer
Harumph- 'K, I guess it is my turn to address the Great Stump.

First off, @Blind, well, there is some Belgarion, but I have not heard the famous "why me?" yet. Rand takes to his role fairly dutifully, although muddled. Rand also has no one to train him whereas Garion had a host of sorcerers to guide him in the Will and the Word.

The books were also much lighter in each series. There were many characters for comic relief, Silk, Beldin, Belgarath, Mandorallen etc. Very light hearted writing and humor. Rand is quite the grim reaper by comparison.

@Wet, Pol had her moments definitely. Where she differs from Caddy is that her motivation and actions stem from love. She loves Garion, she raised him. Caddy, 300 years did not give her much patience or understanding of basic human actions. Nor did her years give her compassion or humility. Pity.

@VD, perhaps giving mumsie a computer or intro cable offer for Christmas. You could even try it out for her. Conversely, if you have a net book or lap top, wifi and hot spots are the way to go, unless you have a net stick, then it is all wavy gravy. Also, to further your theory, wasn't there a viewing by Min or something where she sees a face imposed over Rand's and does not know who it is... maybe I'm crazy from the heat.

The Strike.

I think that LTT did the right thing, the necessary thing. The only flaw was that the ladies did not trust him and thus left him blowing in the breeze. IMHO, LTT would of been successful just from the sheer fact that men channeling, channel as individuals, women are needed for linking and would of greatly increased the amount of power being wielded at the Strike. Even if there were less people, the power would of been exponentially larger.

Barry T
262. blindillusion
At Subwoofer RE:~ The Strike.

The Backlash would of still occured, even had the Patch been made to Perfection. Both tides of the One Power would of Fallen to the Taint. I'd imagine nothing could have saved the World from that.

Which, in retrospect, would be A Way to defeat the DO. A Perfect Patch = No Bore/Thinness with which to push his Presence into the World. As there is no World at this point, there would be no People to corrupt and convince to Free Him. Hence the DO stuck in his Prison for Eternity because He cannot effect Existence while inside his Prison. Thus the Wheel spins a one thread tapestry into FOREVER.

mwhahaha. I win again Lews Therin...err...wait. No I don't...SHIT!!

Isn't speculation fun?
Cynthia Ahmar
263. tenkuu
Wetlandernw @ 248 & 260

Sanderson's contradictory statements have already been pointed out more than once in this post. Please look them up.

As for things related to Rand that benefited the Dark One, how about the ending of Lord of Chaos? For that matter, how about the whole food spoilage thing?

When it's an instance of "Yes he can" and "No he can't", I'd say that counts as contradictory statements. After all, the negative statement was not that "only a few people" could channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission; it was that "no one" could channel it without his permission.

Tektonica @ 250

Funny you should mention that, but I've actually always wanted to hold one of those medium-sized snakes. With supervision of course. Apparently, it's a unique feeling.

abhi_sedai @ 251

I think so too. But the thing is, his own wife was among those female Aes Sedai. I mean really, ouch. That must have put something of a dent in their relationship. And what you're describing, it's what's called female logic, and the reason why no man will ever understand any woman: they think backwards. Being one myself, I should know. :P

In terms of civilized behavior, Rand's Asha'man (I mean the ones he trusts) aren't too bad. Even Rand, to a degree, is quite all right considering what he has to put up with. I've said this before, but I've always understood Rand's reactions to things even when others took it as madness. There is an irrefutable logic to him that he makes clear to Nynaeve in the latest book.

Freelancer @ 256

Since you are asking so nicely, I'm simply referring to the statements of (and I'm only quoting him very loosely here) "No, he can't channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission." and "Well, actually, he can, but it's just very difficult or nearly impossible."

I can't agree with you there. It's apparent that both men and women are needed to properly deal with the Dark One. It's a very real possibility that the seals would have been placed correctly, and more permanently, had women been involved. But the essence of it is this: Lews Therin was the one who was willing to work with the women, while the women were the ones going all "no thanks". And let's not forget that Lews Therin was Tamyrlin and besides that, a respected figure of known strategical genius.

blindillusion @ 262

There's no certainty that a backlash would have occured if men and women had cooperated. Especially if we're to believe that Rand and the Asha'man are supposed to be helped by women in this Age. Otherwise, wouldn't they just be going into it expecting to fail? Rand might have had a dark perspective, but he wasn't expecting to fail: he was merely expecting to succeed but lose his life in the process.
264. Freelancer

Double-check the quotes Wetlandernw gives @260, no need to poorly paraphrase Brandon's words to manufacture a contradiction which does not exist.

Now, on where you say you can't agree with me, it's funny because we share the exact same sentiment. Of course both men and women must be involved to defeat the dark one. Of course Lews Therin had the moral high ground in that conflict, and yes, as the superior authority among all Aes Sedai he should have been granted more respect. However, my comments were based on a quote purported to be from RJ (and positively supported by an additional quote found by blindillusion@257) which said that if both men and women had been at the Strike on Shayol Ghul, then both halves of the One Power would have been tainted. Given that statement, then disaster was averted. Another plan must be made, another method applied, but with the plans available at the time, LTT's strike produced the best possible result.

For a long time, I believed that men and women placing the seals in a maximum-sized circle, and with Callandor employed, would be working while another pair of maximum-sized circles operated the two halves of the Choeden Kal to form a massive temporary shield, holding the DO back while the original seals were destroyed and "the rubble cleared". Clearly that can no longer happen, and also clearly we know that Callandor is best used by a circle of no more than three, so several of my early suppositions are toast.

Last thing. Tenkuu, you do well, but telling Wetlandernw to "look them up", well, you don't really know, do you? She is as thorough about backing up her opinions with detail as anyone here, she certainly puts me to shame on that count. You either didn't notice that she restated the two quotes @260 upon which you based the "contradiction" argument, or you chose to ignore that she showed them to be non-contradictory. Then, you tell blindillusion that "There's no certainty that a backlash would have occured if men and women had cooperated". Yet he was basing that, not on conjecture, but on the words of Robert Jordan. So it would seem that yes, a backlash would have occured, because the author says so. To be blunt, you're fighting a losing battle on these particular debates.
Maiane Bakroeva
265. Isilel

I find it funny how you guys got so invested into the notion that poor LTT could do no wrong and that if those uppity ladies just STFUed and obeyed him all would have been well, that you stubbornly ignore Jordan's own words (see Blindillusion @257).

No, things wouldn't have been alright if female AS participated in the Sealing. On the contrary, saidar would have been tainted and the world would have ended, if not during the much worse Breaking, then at the end of the 3rd Age.

As far as I understand the AoL was some kind of democracy too, so that people had perfect right to protest against decisions that they disagreed with. So, I see no "disrespect" against LTT as such there.

Also, in the end of TGS LTT-in-Rand finally admits that _he_ has failed. What was this about? IMHO, LTT came up with the plan for Sealing and wasted the years after that defending this plan and opposing the Choedan Kal plan, instead of trying to come up with a third option, which may have been more palatable/safer. I.e. his weakness was arrogance.

As to what Rand is going to do re: Bore - IMHO whatever it is will make use of something that wasn't available in AoL. Now that he hopefully has full access to LTT's memories and skills, he is well positioned to do so.
John Massey
266. subwoofer
@Is- LTT admitted he failed because of whatshispickle curing his madness- LTT earned his name kinslayer and wiped out his entire family including the woman he loved. That was his failure. He did seal the DO up.

The one thing that has not been done to date is men and women working together. There has been reference made time and again of various Dragons coming about and re-sealing the DO. How good those efforts were are evidenced by the DO breaking out again.

I am not saying that Saidin and Saidar, men and women working together is the be all and end all. What I am saying is that RJ has alluded to the fact that in the Age of Legends, the greatest feats were accomplished with the cooperation of both sides of the power. Stands to reason that this is something that has not been done and its time is due.

Look at the cleansing of Saidin. Both sides working together. Communicating, trusting, teamwork. That is what I am saying about what is needed to seal the Bore. Not Rand pulling a John Wayne and wondering off alone like Frodo to face the DO on his own. He will do it with help from others.

Barry T
267. blindillusion
I will admit that my reply to Subwoofer was meant to be humorous. As some of you may have noticed, while I enjoy being serious in most of my posts, I began my tenure on this site in a comedic role. My post at 262 was meant to elicit a chuckle and nothing more.

Because, to be honest, none of us can say with any degree of certainty how this will end. At present, there are roughly an infinite number of ways the Final Battle can be fought. Of course, going by the quote provided by Mr Jordan we can say with some degree of accuracy that Seals, a la LTT’s answer to the problem, will not be the way in which it is fought for various reasons:

1) The Seals only Patch the Prison, while in order to truly win they have to re-make the Prison as the Creator made it, unless as Herid Fel questioned, the Prison was made with a Patch already in place,

2) The Seals apparently have to be broken in order for the Final Battle to truly begin (which is why I believe Herid Fel was killed in the first place. He was getting too close to that answer, along with perhaps a way to truly complete the prison),

3) There will always be the problem with the backlash because those of the Light cannot directly touch the Dark One’s presence.

Along this line of questioning how the Last Battle will be fought, I suppose I’ll finally state my biggest problem with T’A’R being the location of said Battle. The only Principle who truly knows the Dream is Egwene. Should, as some theorize, Rand use Callandor, and the Dream, to fight the Last Battle, Egwene would have to be one of those involved, unless it’s one of the Wise Ones. Rand has entered the Dream, but he does not know its rules, not truly. And even such characters as Elayne and Nynaeve need instructions and tools inside the Dream. But the Dream, arguably, is a part of Egwene.

Again, this is only interpretation and speculation. Even my thoughts in regards to Mat at 99, without Mr Jordan’s quote, were, in the end, interpretation. But Mr Jordan irrefutably answered the question. Without that quote, though, no matter how strong my argument, no matter how much canon I quoted, it would have still been conjecture.

Is that to say we should not pose theories? Heavens no. For one thing, it’s fun. For another, it leads to discussion. But I’ve never claimed to be stating fact. I simply make statements I enjoy seeing people respond to. If they disagree, let the discussion begin.

Subwoofer RE:~ Both sides of the Power being used together.

Agreed. Both sides need to be used in aid of each other to complete the Prison in order for someone down the road to crack it open again. Which is why I wonder how exactly this will be the Last Battle. I still have the pet-theory that in order for this to truly be the LB Moridin has to be taken out of the Pattern.

Isn't speculation fun?

Edit: to respond to Sub.
Jack Diamond
268. violetdancer
Car is all packed, and I'm ready to grab the cat and head off to LA, but my addiction forces me to post one last comment. Actually one last question. I'll bet Freelancer or Wetlander knows this.

If Rand opens a gateway to enter T'A'R in the flesh, can't he bring others in too?
269. Freelancer

Actually, though the speculation should be simple, there's no precedent to provide proof. A gateway into T'a'R should allow others to walk in with him, by all that we know.

Have fun in LA-la land, and wave toward the South once.
Sam Mickel
270. Samadai
Sorry I have been missing but I have been rereading all of the Verin appearances in all the books, looking for foreshadowing. I am not done yet, but there is something I noticed in the Great Hunt I found amusing.

When Perrin is leading Ingtar and co. and the are in Kinslayers dagger mtns Ingtar comes back toward him to ask about what the wolves smelled again. As ingtar is coming towards him, Perrin notices how Ingtars helmet makes him look like a Trolloc.

On another note I reread tGS this weekend and at the end in Veins of Gold when Rand is pulling in Saidin from the Sa'angreal, he thinks he has only pulled in this much one power twice before. Once when he cleaned Saidin and once when he created Dragonmount. Holy S&^t, that means Lews/Rand can pull in without any help(of course its enough to kill them) as much power as they can using the Sa'angreal. Because after that he pulls in even more Saidin than is safe even with it.
Barry T
271. blindillusion

As Freelancer said, it should be possible. You can bring an item into T'A'R with you if you enter in the flesh, so it would seem reasonable to believe you can bring a person in with you.

About the only limitation I've found regarding entering T'A'R in the flesh would be that you cannot go there, create something and then bring it out with you.

It is intesting to note, in the quote I posted at 193, that is is Bair who says "No" to the Aes Sedai in regards to teaching Egwene how to enter T'A'R in the flesh. Of course she cannot as she cannot channel.

I am curious as to where this question is going. I mean, if Rand & Etc. could bring someone into the Dream in the flesh, why on earth would that person want to go? There is too great a possibility of becoming trapped, unless that person: 1) Can channel, 2) Is strong enough to Weave a gateway, and 3) Knows the Weave to exist T'A'R.

Enjoy your vacation. *mutters*...Wish I could go to Cali....

Isn't speculation fun?
272. alreadymadwithdrawing
Samadai @270
There are a few ways to interpret that:

1) LTT really can hold that much Saidin quantitatively. It is a possibility given that he must have used the Power a century for each half year Rand has. If we can assume he's in the same age group or generation as most of the Forsaken(given he's known them personally) that's 300-500 yrs.

2) Rand might mean channeling to capacity. Yes he's had reason to hold a lot before, but not at his full capacity except for the Cleansing and his Dragonmount suicide, which I'll get to next.

3) LTT may have drawn as much saidin at the moment he created Dragonmount, but that's already way more than he normally could. It did go bang in his face, that time.
Sam Mickel
273. Samadai
amw, #3 is what I meant. Can you imagine what that must have felt like. Every male in the world(even the already crazy ones) must have felt that.
Alice Arneson
274. Wetlandernw
blindillusion (@257 and various) *sigh* I can see I'm going to have to go spend some serious hours reading through piles of stuff on theoryland and dragonmount. My first preference for quotes and authoritative statements are always things that RJ (and now BWS) himself put in writing, but there are obviously a lot of other documented interviews out there that contain info not available from my preferred sources.

Take, for example, the quote about how saidar would have been tainted if the women had gone along with LTT's plan. I sure wish someone had brought that up about 6 months ago, or even at the beginning of the TGS discussion. It would have directed us to a much more meaningful discussion of possible solutions, instead of being primarily limited to the naturally assumed solution of simply having men and women work together this time. If that's not IT, what is?

(Here's a looney theory. Make Moridin himself the patch... Then he can be the only one touching the DO and his TP, and Team Light can place appropriate seals on top of (outside?) Moridin and fuse them thoroughly to the prison itself with no counterstrike. VBG)

Meanwhile, I'm grateful that you have the time and energy to devote to finding more sources of info and bringing the relevant bits to bear on the discussion. I'm pushing it just to manage what I'm doing here at the moment, without spending additional time looking at sources I don't have memorized yet.

By the way, can anyone give me a good hint as to how to find things more easily on the 13th Depository? (Besides trying when I'm actually awake and not distracted, that is.) I know there's a boatload of good stuff there, but the only way I seem to find what I'm looking for is if someone posts a link directly to it. *sigh* The webmaster there and I obviously don't think the same way.
Chris Maurer
275. grayfox
I've been thinking about something today...

Wouldn't it be smart if Rand requested that all gai'shain put off the white just for the last battle? They can go back to their year and a day after its over (if they survive it).

While WE know that the battle will probably not be a typical army of good vs. army of bad kind of battle, the characters don't know that. The gai'shain represent, what, maybe 1 million highly skilled warriors? That might come in useful in the last battle wouldn't it?

As for the gai'shain agreeing to it...considering it is the "LAST Battle", waiting out the year and a day at this point would be foolish as if the battle is lost, there is no more year and a day.

I'm just sayin...if farmers like the guy in the prologue are going to battle, I'd think Rand would "break all traditions" with them and convince them to fight this one time so the world doesn't end!

I also still want to see an Aiel Asha'man, but I think that was discussed way back in one of the re-read threads! Imagine the awesome!!!
Rob Munnelly
276. RobMRobM
@274. Oh Linda! Can you help Wetlander out with how best to navigate your site? Any help would be appreciated. Rob

P.s. Linda, one of the co-moderators, posts here every once in a while.
Barry T
277. blindillusion
Wetlandernw, I typically use Terez's post on Theoryland because it's broken down nicely and with Ctrl F it's easy to wade through all the information.

About the biggest article on there deals with the Forsaken.

I've never clicked on the links Terez has inside the articles though...I just hope there's no need.

As for the 13thD. Sigh. Sometimes that site is impossible, though wonderful when I find what I'm looking for...such as maps.

Hi Linda if you happen to read this. I really do appreciate your site. But what Wetlandernw said...

Isn't speculation fun?

edit: Silly "d", where did you come from? Be gone....
Maiane Bakroeva
278. Isilel
Subwoofer @266:

Both sides working together. Communicating, trusting, teamwork. That is what I am saying about what is needed to seal the Bore.

Sure. But I'd argue that break-down of cooperation happened long before LTT's Sealing and that both sides were equally responsible. I.e. both plans had significant problems, but instead of getting together and looking for another solution, each side wasted time and effort to try to make their idea prevail.

That was the true failure - arrogance, inability to accept constructive criticism. And LTT was every bit as guilty as his opponents.
By the time he went ahead, yes, maybe it was the only possible choice, but he himself was co-responsible for it being so. Hence, failure.

Blindillusion @267:

IMHO, post-TGS Rand could very well have knowledge of and training in T'AR if LTT did.

But in any case, if the almost perfect Sealing that leads to people forgetting the DO indeed happens at the end of the Third Age, it will IMHO use something not available in AoL.
There should be a reason why all those great minds couldn't come up with the plan for it in more than a century since the drilling of the Bore, while Rand-LTT and some rustics will be able to do so in just a few weeks or months.
Bonnie Andrews
279. misfortuona
Isilel @278
While it is entirely possible that Rand could have LTT's knowledge of T'A'R'. I for one would be quite dissapointed if it turns out that way for a couple of reasons.
1) It sort of undoes all the cool points that Perrin and Egwene have developed by spending time there, and 2) It opens the door for Rand to become too 'all knowing'. If he actually has all of he abilities of all of the DR's for the past 3 millenia there isn't going to be much he can't do. Too easy IMO.

If you are right about something not available in AoL making the difference in defeating the DO this time round. Let's think about what we have.
The warder link comes to mind first off, and the link through the adams.
Any thoughts on how those could make a difference?
280. Freelancer

I don't believe that LTT's soul has had another incarnation between himself and Rand. That the soul has lived many times in past turnings of the Wheel is clear, but there's no solid indications of additional "Dragon Reborn" lives between the creation of Dragonmount and now. In fact, I'm quite certain there has been none, since such a Dragon Reborn would have all of the advantages, and none of the disadvantages. No forsaken, no DO breaking out, no weak seals. In essence, the Pattern had no need for him, so it wasn't time yet.

Rand's memories of skills and such are limited to one other lifetime from this turning of the Wheel, it seems.
281. Freelancer

I have to agree with you re: the 13thD. From everything I hear it's an endless treasure trove, but I'm missing the map & decoder ring. Hunting for treasure with just a shovel and randomly digging, it's not my style. Give me an embedded global positioner plus inertial navigator, and I'll find what I'm looking for.
Barry T
282. blindillusion
Isilel @278

I’d agree that something not available in the AoL will be the key to winning the Last Battle. And as Misfortuna (and I in TWOt:TGSOST, Part the First!) recommended, let’s look at some of the things that now exist that didn’t then:
1) Perrin & Mat.
2) The Warder Bond.
3) Padan Fain.
4) The a’dam.
5) It would seem Wolfbrothers weren’t running around in the AoL, though this is pure conjecture. Now there are at least two.
6) A Viewer ~ Don’t know what else to call Min.
7) Shaidar Haran.
8) Connection between Rand & Moirdin.
9) The knowledge that the Dragon Reborn must use Callandor (and pretty much the rest of the Prophecies (speaking of which…did no one have the Foretelling before the Bore was drilled?)).
10) The Dragon with memories of past lives.

I cannot readily recall anything else off the top of my head.

edit: Posting from work...forgot the end line.

Isn't speculation fun?
283. cambosabe
Re The Dark One giving Rand permission to channel the TP, what if he didn't give permission, but his blessing. A fine distinction, I know, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Many of the Forsaken are afraid the DO will set Rand above them. Many efforts to turn him have been made. He is forbidden ground as far as being killed (Captured,yes, but not killed). He has a good chance of becoming Nae'blis if he wants the job. The DO seems to want the Fisher as his own playing piece. The TP is addictive and if Rand becomes an addict he is in the palm of the DO's hand. Why wouldn't he want Rand to use the TP?

Also, why the Fisher? The Atha'an Miere have to take Rand where he wants to go. "Three in a boat". Trollocs can't swim and fades can't cross fast moving water. I'm just grabbing at straws here, but I still wonder... Why the Fisher?

On a side note, I'd like to see a squad of Deathwatch Guard Ogier find Loial in a Stedding. THAT would blow their minds!

And maybe Perrin will find the song. He has all the experience with Tinkers, Aiel, Ogier and has even met the Green Man. The world could use more Nym. Especially with all the spoiled food turning up lately!

blindillusion: Wolfbrothers are older than the age of legends. Wolves have an ancient memory of running with man many ages ago.
Barry T
284. blindillusion
Yes, I'm aware of that. But were there any Wolfbrothers during the AoL?
285. cambosabe
blindillusion: Oh. I had just assumed so. They are very rare and often misunderstood so I guess I assumed they were out in the woods chasing down deer or something instead of being involved in city politics. Come to think of it, the wolves don't seem to remember many wolfbrothers being around for a little while (which could be an age or two). Elyas tells Perrin (or was it Egwene?) that some people can talk to wolves and we've seen at least three in this time alone. I can't be sure about the AoL.
Alice Arneson
286. Wetlandernw
cambosabe @283 - Are you familiar with the legend of the Fisher King? If not, you might want to look at this as a starting point. If you're already aware of it, then I don't think I understand the question of "Also, why the Fisher?"
Alice Arneson
288. Wetlandernw
And... in rereading that section myself, I was reminded of this:
Associated with the Arthurian legend of the Fisher King are four objects, the Hallows (there were other Hallows, but these four were most directly involved in the Arthurian legends), that were essential to heal the Maimed King. These were sacred objects, capable of great power. They were:

The Sword: This sword was said to have great power. Whoever wielded it could call down lightning and fire from heaven. This is linked to the Sword that Arthur pulled from the stone, and in modern times is represented as the Sword of State. Rand pulled Callandor from the Stone, and used it to call lightning and fire on the Trollocs.

The Cauldron: This provided food and life to those who were able to possess it. It is described as a wide, but shallow dish. I think that the Randland equivalent is the Bowl of Winds, which is described in nearly the same terms. The modern equivalent is the Ampula of Holy Oil.

The Spear: The Spear was unbeatable in battle, and was directly linked to the healing of the Maimed King. Some legends say that this spear was the very one that pierced the side of Jesus Christ. The Randland equivalent could be the Seanchan scepter, or it could be Mat's spear.

The Crown: This was the symbol of the king's power. The Crown of Swords is its equivalent in Randland. When the throne room in Illian was destroyed, the Crown of Swords was sitting on the throne. The throne was completely destroyed, but the crown was intact, which indicates that it has an important role to play.

All of these were directly linked to the Maimed King's sovereignity, and to the idea of power. When Rand goes into beggar-mode, he will lose his power, and these will be necessary to restore him.
Note that this last statement is speculation by somebody-or-other (possibly John Johnson?), but if true, it puts an interesting twist-to-come on the final Dragonmount scene. IIRC, none of those items are with him. Assuming they are correct about the identity of the items and that they are critical to Rand's healing...

The Sword: Callandor: is with some unidentified Aes Sedai for study and safekeeping.

The Cauldron: Bowl of the Winds: is in the care of the Windfinders.

The Spear: Dragon Sceptre?: gee, I hope not, because IIRC Semirhage destroyed it along with Rand's hand.

The Spear: Mat's ashandarei?: more hopeful, since it's presumably safe with Mat in Caemlyn.

The Crown: Crown of Swords: Anyone know where this is? Was it mentioned in TGS? Last I know for sure, Rand was wearing it when he went to meet "Tuon" in KoD. I have a vague notion I read something about it in TGS, but I haven't had time to reread it looking for things like that, and of course no one has it included in their web search engines yet.

What do y'all think? Will all the "hallows" be needed to heal Rand, or does the analogy break down here? Is he already healed (from his blindness)? Any other topics of discussion raised by this line of thought?
Cynthia Ahmar
289. tenkuu
Freelancer @ 264

To first address what you said about Wetlandernw, I considered altering my comment after reading her reply in #260, but specifically decided to leave it that way. After all, I was responding to *both* comments, and it wasn't wrong of me to ask her to look it up. It had been mentioned a few times in this very thread, after all, so I shouldn't have needed to bring it up again. And sure, she's thorough, but everyone occasionally misses details that they'd find if they looked closely.

The quotes weren't poorly paraphrased at all, perhaps you are the one who needs to re-read them. But if you don't see the contradiction, then there's no point in further discussing this with you. If you're going to resort to silly accusations just because someone does not share your point of view, then I have nothing further to say to you on the matter.

Jordan did indeed say this in his quote, but all authors' stories change as they progress, details are altered. It could also easily have been his own assumption that this would happen. I am not saying he is wrong, but I am not completely convinced, that's all. Especially since the last book has been full of characters' thoughts about how to re-place new Seals. If it's to be done with the One Power, there's only one of three ways: men alone, women alone, or men and women working together. Keep in mind that my point was not about Lews Therin's plan being the best one possible; it was about it being the best of the two between the men and the women's plans. If you failed to notice, I made clear mention of the fact that it could easily be something other than the Seals that would involve men and women working together to rid the world of the Dark One, as long as it involved cooperation (as Lews Therin originally wanted).

Isilel @ 265

What poor Lews Therin, exactly? He's the one who got blamed for everything in every Age following his. But then again, it isn't entirely right to put the entire weight of the blame on him. I am the one who defended him against the women though, so perhaps you meant your comment for me? Either way, I am of the opinion that the women were closed-minded, and that if anyone was behaving arrogantly, it was them. You didn't see *them* suggesting a third alternative either, btw.

violetdancer @ 268

That would make a lot of sense. Here I'm reminded of my favorite anime, YST, where there are at least three worlds: Human World, Demon World, Armor World. The first is the one we all know, the Demon World is a strange but beautiful place where humans who have died wicked and become "youja" (ie, "demons" is the agreed upon translation) live (not all of them with negative ambitions), and the Armor World is where two powerful armors originate, along with the five troopers' armors. They are all separate but parallel worlds. In one instance, the two powerful armors, with their own will and bloodlust, brought the Armor World to the Human World and nearly destroyed the latter. The two armors had to be destroyed, along with the troopers' armors that were being affected by the bloodlust, in order to prevent a disaster. In the same way, I think Tel'aran'rhiod is a separate but parallel world, but it is more like the Demon World, which is essentially the flip side of the Human World. What happens in Tel'aran'rhiod can affect what happens in the "real world", and perhaps certain aspects of Tel'aran'rhiod are more easily accessible than the real world.

alreadymadwithdrawing @ 272

Come to think of it, has Rand even yet reached his full potential where the One Power is concerned? It has been continuously growing in the past books, after all, and Rand is young. Lews Therin was considerably older so had probably already reached his at the time of the sealing. Perhaps Rand can get even more powerful than he currently is before the very end.

grayfox @ 275

I've actually wondered if Taim never tried to recruit among the Aiel. And if Rand wouldn't let him do so with a people he trusts, why he doesn't do it himself. Or perhaps he can't stand the thought of sullying their traditions quite that far.
290. alreadymadwithcallandor
Looney theory about Callandor:
Cadsuane has said that it has a flaw that makes it magnify the Taint. What we've seen so far seems to confirm this(I am the storm). With Saidin cleaned though, such a flaw is now rendered moot. Yet is that really the last we've seen of the Taint?
The Taint we know is actually the Dark One's essence tacked onto the male half of the Source. Hence something that can magnify the Taint magnifies the Dark One's essence. The Taint is not the only example we have of the Dark One's essence. The True Power is also the Dark One's essence. My theory is that Callandor can also act as a sa'angreal for the True Power.

tenkuu @289
Rand wants to recruit among the Sea Folk but has let them decide so far what to do with their male channelers. I'm afraid we're gonna get a RAFO for any Aiel Asha'man.
John Massey
291. subwoofer
@Is, I feel like we are arguing on the same side. I never said LTT was not culpable for his actions, but he did get stuff done. I appreciate what you say about the breakdown before things hit the fan. It is true. My point is, that this is an opportunity after 3000 years to make things right.

And it is assumption, not fact that the DO would of tainted Saidar if the ladies joined in. We just do not know the end result. It could very well be, but maybe both halves of the One Power can cancel out the taint of the True Power.

And I liken your analogy of great minds vs rustics to the Washington Redskins. They have a ton of talent, huge salaries and big name players, but they suck. Why? No team chemistry and sometimes, as evidenced by early NE teams, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. True teamwork can raise the individuals to new levels.

Edit- and what Blind said:)

@Wet, yes, the 13D is a site where things go to die. No kind of organization or ease of navigation. Tons of info, if you are willing to start from the beginning and spend a couple of weeks sifting. I subscribe to the Feeds and hope for the best as they are not titled very well. Two hands and a flash light time:)

John Massey
292. subwoofer
testing, ##%$#*! Ummmm, the bit at the bottom starting with The War of Power.

Especially the bit comparing the Sa'angreal to the Manhattan Project.

Alice Arneson
293. Wetlandernw
Rats. I hoped someone else would do this... Oh well.

tenkuu: a word in your shell-like. Torie has poked you before about the requirement to treat others with respect. As moderator, she can and will shut you down if you get into personal attacks instead of topical discussion. Just so you know.

And... @ 289 - Please tell me you were joking:
Jordan did indeed say this in his quote, but all authors' stories change as they progress, details are altered. It could also easily have been his own assumption that this would happen. I am not saying he is wrong, but I am not completely convinced, that's all.
When an individual creates a world for the purpose of telling a story, developing the cultures and history to provide a setting for that story, it is hardly logical for others to claim that he is making unfounded assumptions about the cosmology thereof. If the author can't be trusted as a source of accurate information about the way his world works, or its history, who can? Considering that the statement in question was made in April 2003 (see comment #245), shortly after Crossroads of Twilight came out, the interaction of the True Power and the True Source was fairly well established in his mind, his notes and his books.

Now, if you've actually read what I said, fire away. I probably won't respond any more.
Barry T
294. blindillusion
Tenkuu RE:~ Several of your comments:

blindillusion @ 257
There's no certainty that a backlash would have occurred if men and women had cooperated. Especially if we're to believe that Rand and the Asha'man are supposed to be helped by women in this Age. Otherwise, wouldn't they just be going into it expecting to fail? Rand might have had a dark perspective, but he wasn't expecting to fail: he was merely expecting to succeed but lose his life in the process.

The above is from your comment at 263 referencing me at 257. Now, in your comment at 289 you say this:

I made clear mention of the fact that it could easily be something other than the Seals that would involve men and women working together to rid the world of the Dark One, as long as it involved cooperation (as Lews Therin originally wanted).

Now, for one thing, this is not a “clear mention” of what I quoted. The quotes I posted dealt specifically with the Seals, not cooperation in general. Your quote at the above seems to be clearly stating your belief that had men and women cooperated in the Sealing of the Bore there would have been no backlash and no Taint as a result.

Also in your quote at 289 you say this:

Jordan did indeed say this in his quote, but all authors' stories change as they progress, details are altered. It could also easily have been his own assumption that this would happen. I am not saying he is wrong, but I am not completely convinced, that's all.

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm not reading you right, but are you saying Mr Jordan made an assumption about his own story and that the assumption is that both sides of the Source would have been Tainted if male & female AS has placed the Seals? Notice I'm truly curious and not lambasting you. I wonder as to where you gather the idea that Mr Jordan is wrong about some part of his story.

And what, exactly, are you not convinced about? That if men and women had cooperated in Sealing the Bore everything would have been fine? No Taint? No Breaking?

Because next you say this:

Especially since the last book has been full of characters' thoughts about how to re-place new Seals. If it's to be done with the One Power, there's only one of three ways: men alone, women alone, or men and women working together. Keep in mind that my point was not about Lews Therin's plan being the best one possible; it was about it being the best of the two between the men and the women's plans.

Sigh. This is just chalked full of oddness:

1)What's your point about the characters thoughts on how to replace the Seals. They're operating under the assumption that this will work. It won't...unless they find a way to place the Seals without touching the DO first, because the Taint is not a past plot-point just because it's been Cleansed. There is always the possibility that the DO could re-Taint either side of the Source. Especially since the backlash, and the Taint caused by it, were volitional acts on the DO's part.

2)How can we assume with any degree of accuracy that LTT's plan was the better of two plans? I'm not saying the female AS plan would have worked, but LTT was desperate. Desperate times and all that. It's one of those things we'll never know.

Sigh. I'm sorry. Maybe I should get more sleep. Perhaps it's just me, but your comments lack the ability to be understood. Maybe they'll look clearer in the morning and I'll regret having posted this.

I hope you don't take offense to my confusion. I also hope you'll try to alleviate said confusion.

Isn't speculation fun?

edit: Seems Wetlandernw beat me the punch...and with much fewer words as well. I becoming...verbose??? Oh, wait..I already knew that....
Carolyn Goodwin
295. metacarolyn
Wetlandernw @ 288 regarding hallows: Another possibility for the Spear is the Siswai'Aman (spear of the dragon). Not an object like we might expect, but still possible.
Alice Arneson
296. Wetlandernw
blindillusion - LOL! I don't know anyone verbose.... ;) Took a lot of editing, let me tell you! I spent the whole time I was making dinner and washing dishes, coming up with all manner of witty and clever things to say - very few of which would actually have been appropriate to post. So afterwards I wrote it all down and then followed the advice of Samuel Johnson: 'Read over your compositions, and where ever you meet with a passage which you think is particularly fine, strike it out.' After cutting all the best (and most inappropriate) bits, I tidied it up a bit and... there it was. Wish it had taken me longer.
Alice Arneson
297. Wetlandernw
metacarolyn @295 - Hey, I like it!

I'm not fully convinced that the Fisher-King "hallows" necessarily have parallels in WoT, you understand, or that they are required for Rand's healing prior to (during? after?) the Last Battle. I don't know how thoroughly RJ was intending to parallel some of the myths & legends he clearly drew from, vs. those for which he decided to "rewrite the ending" entirely. I just don't have a good feel for that, so I'm not hard over on it. Still, it would seem to be just like him to draw exact parallels, and then throw a twist in it like making "the Spear" be an entire people.
Henry Loose
298. schrodinger
folks, it seems that we are the energizer bunny (we just keep going and going and going and going and going). I go away for a week to take final exams and have hundreds of new posts to catch up on (well, that's not entirely true, I took some time to finally fine tune and finish my WoT Risk game).

I had meant to slow down my reading to pace myself with the re-reads going on, but once again got sucked into the books (by the time I realized I was past where I meant to stop I was in Path of Daggers).

Now to read all the posts that all you wonderful people have made.
Barry T
299. blindillusion
Wetlandernw RE:~ 296

You know, that's a novel idea. Perhaps I should try it. I never have been able to edit my own writings, but then, I've never tried that before.
300. Planeswalker
TOPIC: Backlash

...The difference in sealing BEFORE and the NOW is not about men only and men/women affair... it is about saidin only and saidin/saidar/TP affair...

Prudence is also a virtue. - Latin Prudentia (foresight)
Thomas Keith
301. insectoid
Not much else to say, but...

Blind @231/3659: Okay, I thought of another one. The emissary to Sub's bunker can be called the First Eskimo (the head of the Frozen Ajah!) ;D

Also, FWIW: At the current rate of around 30 comments/day, I predict that we'll reach 572(4000) on December 25. And whoever gets it should receive one of those light-up TOR dingle balls that Subwoofer likes as a present. ;)

Schrodinger @298/3726: Energizer Bunny? Yup, that's us!

Sean Banawnie
302. Seanie
How about a role for the Horn of Valere in these allegories?
Matthew Smith
303. blocksmith

IIRC, the flaw with Callandor was that the safeguards that prevent a channeler from drawing to much through it were not adequate...thus, the drawing of additional power without the "no-burnout" function operating caused increased taint exposure. What I mean is, angreal and sa'angreal allow a person to channel more of the power than they could unaided, but the amount their internal limit is "rated" for is not exceeded. With Callandor, the internal limit rating is ignored.

The protection, however, becomes established by using Callandor linked with a female channeler(s)...which was how it was used during the Cleansing. The flaw is still there, just no exposure to taint.

Whether or not the taint could resurface...I am hoping not but all's fair in love and fantasy/sci-fi, right?

My most likely conjecture is that, at some point during the last battle, Rand will become directly exposed/immersed/surrounded in the DO and that he will be inundated with that same taint feeling...magnified to the 10th power. Maybe equate to the taint being an x-ray dose and the DO exposure being napping in room a leaking nuclear waste drums.
Linda Taglieri
304. Linda

Sorry I haven't got back to you before now, but I've being working overtime and also updating the Depository articles.

Navigating the blog: There are two ways.

There are indexes. Their links are in the top left hand corner of the home page. First is a general articles index by title. The second is another articles index by series or grouping. The third is probably what you want: it is a keyword or subject index. In it are links to any keyword. Use the initial letter link or, if it's a main character or a country or a member of an organisation/affiliation you want, use the link of that page underneath those of the letters. At the very bottom of that page is a quick link to the One Power (although the link to the One Power is also under the letter O). The last two indexes are of the theories and the read-through posts.

Another way is through labels. These are low down the left hand margin Every article has one. The Maps label is listed and will call up all articles with a map. All reference articles about prophecies have the Into the Future label. Aes Sedai articles are so labelled, etc.

I hope that helps.

I'll overhaul the indexes some time in the New Year.
Tasneem Gould
306. Latecomer
Thanks Linda - just checking it out and finding some really cool stuff.

I found this little nugget interesting from Ishmael's section:

His current orders are that no Forsaken is to follow their own plans or send Trollocs or Myrddraal out of the Blight. They must report immediately to him if they see any.

That being the case, who sent the trollocs against the Seanchan near Ebou Dar?

Or perhaps the answer is elsewhere on the site.. *goes off to hunt*
Rob Munnelly
307. RobMRobM
Late - you've identified one of the biggest unsolved mysteries in WoT next to who killed Asmo and why Gawyn accepts as gospel truth rumors that Rand killed his mommy. The order was directly contrary to Moridin's instructions, so whoever did it is at great risk of being Trolloc meat, but it had to be a Foresaken to get the Trollocs to move. So...who is the genius/idiot that costs the dark forces 100,000 trollocs just prior to TG? Cyndane?
308. thepupxpert
I've been lurking the last couple of days and still haven't caught up with all the posts but I'd like to know where I go to get registered so I don't have to get a new name like wetlandernw did?
309. thepupxpert
Also @260 Wetlandernw, isn't it possible that the DO has been leading Rand to that one moment when he was allowed to seize TP and destroy Semi, she had that look of shock on her face like she had been double-crossed by the DO. I've only read the book once so I'm not sure but doesn't Rand now have access to the TP from this point on? I'm thinking the DO had all this worked out before-hand as a plot to turn Rand, by giving him gradually more access to power he would never be able to get in any other manner?
Sam Mickel
310. Samadai
just go to the very top right side of the page and register as a new user.
Don Barkauskas
311. bad_platypus
RobM^2 @307:

Actually, the attack you're referring to was set in motion before Moridin gives the order; in fact, the fact that 100,000+ Trollocs were sent into the Ways is the reason why Moridin gives the order in the first place. The attack to which Latecomer@306 is referring is the attack on Tylee's forces in tGS Prologue.

Just a minor nitpick---I completely agree with you that the mystery of who ordered the KoD attack is one of the biggest outstanding ones. I also agree with Latecomer that the tGS attack is a mysterious event.

A thought: I haven't checked the chronology, but could both attacks be part of the same set of orders?
Rob Munnelly
312. RobMRobM
@311. I assumed it likely that the TGS attack was an offshoot of the KoD attack - either lost or escaping trollocs rather than some form of strategic encirclement of Ebou Dar.

I was pretty sure, from memory, that the KoD attack was ordered after Moridin's ban ... but I could be wrong and don't have time or resources to undertake a crack research job.
Sam Mickel
313. Samadai

Moridin issues the order in Chapter 3 of KoD's titled "At The Gardens". He issues them because he said Sammael or someone who looks like him sent the Fades and Trollocs through the ways.
The attack happens in chapter 19 "Vows".
John Massey
316. subwoofer
@Free280-hard to type whlie petting dog. That is an idea that I have not considered before. I had always assumed that LTT gets spun out again and again. Wasn't it Demandred that comments that him and LTT were destined to meet again and again? Your idea does have merit though. Especially, as you say, no Forsaken, Seals not greasy, Tower not in disarray, etc.

right now Rand is like the proverbial one legged guy at an a$$ kicking contest. Maybe LTT's memory gets wiped all the time. But then again, the Horn, Callandor(which I desperately want to call colander), the Aiel, the EotW, all that good stuff lends to the fact that this is the One.


Alice Arneson
317. Wetlandernw
Seanie @302 - you know, there should be a Horn equivalent. Unfortunately, we don't get to write the original legends... If you look more deeply at the Fisher King stories you might find something; IIRC, the article I referenced earlier said there were other items associated with the legend, but those were the four most noted (or most consistently noted). However, there is an equivalent to the Horn in Norse mythology, if there isn't one in the Fisher King legend.

Linda @304 - Thank you very much! I'll have to spend some time over the Christmas break getting familiar with the labels and groupings.

thepupxpert @309 - ...isn't it possible that the DO has been leading Rand to that one moment when he was allowed to seize TP ... Well, some readers find that to be a logical conclusion. To my mind, it doesn't follow for a variety of reasons.

First, regarding Semi's shock, the fact that she interprets it as a betrayal by the DO doesn't prove anything other than that she recognizes it as the True Power, which (as we've been told from FS POV's before) is generally supposed to be accessible only with the DO's direct permission. IMHO, she's half right - it's the TP, but it wasn't necessarily an intentional betrayal.

Second, BWS said quite clearly that Rand does not have permission from the DO to access the TP. Can the DO deliberately lead Rand to it, hope he'll use it, and allow him to use it, and still be said NOT to have given Rand permission? You decide; some (not me) think so.

Third, BWS also said quite clearly that it is "difficult but not impossible" to channel the TP without the DO's direct permission. Speaking only for myself, I interpret this and the previous comment to mean that while everyone assumes that you need the DO's permission, there's at least one way around it, and that's what Rand used. Remember that RJ has cautioned us in the past that just because a character believes and declares something to be true, it "ain't necessarily so." (See comment on Semi above.)

So... at least until we have read Towers of Midnight, possibly A Memory of Light, and maybe not then, none of us lowly readers will be able to say with authority that the DO did not intend Rand to use the TP, but I think the evidence argues against it. All you can do is take the info we have and interpret it to the best of your ability. Oh, and I don't know whether Rand can use the TP at will; I don't recall that TGS gave us any other instances of that happening, or at least none that were clearly TP instead of OP. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

For myself, I'm firmly of the opinion that the emerging connection between Rand and Moridin is a new thing, unknown in history, legend or myth, and no one (including the DO or Moridin) understands just what the ramifications will be. One effect is obviously that Moridin physically feels some of the things Rand feels (e.g. the hand). I think that another effect is that Rand can, at least under extreme stress, draw the TP through Moridin. Because of the link and the lack of understanding about how it functions, the DO was (and still is, I hope) completely unaware of that effect, so that potentially Rand can draw and use it for things the DO never intended.

On a related note, while I find the idea of "using evil to fight evil" (in terms of Rand drawing the TP to seal the Bore) theologically unsound, I also find more and more little things in the text and Q&A pointing in that direction. I'd like the solution to be different, but at present I'm inclined to think that the TP will be part of the process somehow. But that's another argument altogether. And this is a seriously overgrown wallotext. Apologies.

And @314 - Welcome to the world of grey! ;)
Tricia Irish
318. Tektonica
Seanie@302 & Wetlandernw@317

This from an article on the Arthurian legend on the 13th D. Wish I had a link for you, but I don't know how to do that. Help, pretty please.

In the Fisher King myth, the king can only be restored to full health with the advent of a chosen Knight/champion, who is empowered with the divine, and has the ability to heal the king and his land.
The Grail Champion is then given personal salvation and redemption and taken to heaven.

Holy Grail prototype found in ancient sacred objects known as the Thirteen Treasures of Britain.

Crock, cauldron, dish, = Bowl of Winds, EotW.
Horn = Horn of Valare
Sword = Justice, Callandor
Chariot, halter, knife, whetstone = Ashandarei, Rand's heron marked blade
Coat = Rand’s red coat
Mantel = Crown of Swords?
Bwyddbwll board = Stones Board

They go into some detail on what each of the objects in Randland means. If you want it all and can't find it on the 13thD, let me know and I'll copy and paste it from my notes.

Thanks for asking about directions around the 13thD. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one stumbling around over there in the dark.
Cynthia Ahmar
319. tenkuu
Wetlandernw @ 293

Three things. First, you talking to me about respect after the way you've talked to me is the biggest irony I've heard of. In other words, you really shouldn't talk, but rather look yourself in the mirror. Secondly, I have no idea what you're referring to about this Torie person. In the first place, if you're talking about the part 1 post of the spoiler thread, I never posted in it. If you're talking about an old thread, in fact the only other one I've posted in many weeks (maybe months ago), I stopped checking it when it stopped getting interesting for me, so I never saw whatever comment you're referring to. And thirdly, if there's one thing I definitely don't lack, it's respect. I have not attacked anyone, nor treated them with any less respect than that which they gave to me. I have not used insults or anything remotely like it. If you're referring to my much earlier comment asking you to look it up yourself, I fail to see how that is at all a lack of respect. If you're referring to my comment to Freelancer though, he/she is the one who lacked respect towards me, not the contrary. Not even in my last comment. If someone needs to resort to accusations based on their own beliefs, that is prejudice and does not belong on this board. This is what Freelancer was doing, hence my response. Yet again though, I kept everything perfectly polite while making myself very clear to him/her.

As for my quote, I share subwoofer's opinion that it is an assumption, and not a fact, that both sides of the One Power would have been tainted if men and women had worked together at Lews Therin's plan. Since I mentioned this countless times, I don't understand your surprise at my response at all.

Also, I will attribute your last comment in that post to having had a bad day, since I do read every single comment on this board, and if anything is an insult and actually did not deserve to be read, it was most of your post. In conclusion, I would surprised if the ones who should receive any form of reprimand for any posts made in this thread did not in fact include both you and Freelancer. Both of you, please remember that you are not allowed to take out your bad days (or whatever is the matter) on people on this board.

blindillusion @ 294

To be honest, I read every single comment to come after the last one I posted everytime I check this board, and I assume everyone does the same. So with that post, I mistakenly assumed that you had read the previous one where I had made the clear mention in question. In my reply to Isilel in my comment #247, I said "And I think his original plan definitely involved cooperation between men and women. Not to mention that the prophecies, and testimonials from the Age of Legends, seem to imply that Rand does need women to plant the seals, and if not that, then to do whatever it is that needs to be done. From what I remember reading, I didn't see Lews Therin getting all self-righteous in a "none of us will help you" way. That was the women." Note the "or whatever it is that needs to be done". My point was about cooperation. Sorry if I wasn't clear before, but I felt that for me to quote myself would seem somewhat presumptious.

I already addressed the second point of your list of "oddness": we've already seen that the giant sa'angreal statues are a generally bad idea to use, therefore the women's plan involving them surely had more risks, even though no one seemed to be aware of them in the Age of Legends, than Lews Therin's plan. As for your first point, well, authors often speak through their characters, do they not? And those characters, if they think on something, are likely to follow up on it rather than just think "what a crazy idea" and forget all about it. Don't you think so? :)

I definitely don't take offense to anything you say. You, among very few, know how to speak properly to people, and I am very grateful to you for that. So many people think they know what real etiquette is but are completely mistaken.

Planeswalker @ 300

I read your comment three times and I'm not entirely sure I understand how the differences you mention are not in fact the exact same thing... After all, men channel saidin, women channel saidar, and a select few have access to the True Power. People are ordinary beings without any power to affect anything involving the Dark One without the One Power, after all. If you meant something else though, I'd be very interested to see you elaborate on that.
Tasneem Gould
320. Latecomer
Totally Random comment about TGS & the link between Rand & Moridin...

Has anyone else noticed that Rand is also wearing Moridin's colours?

Red coats with black embroidery,
Black coats with red embiodery,
Red and black coats with gold embrioidery...

I'll say it before anyone else does - Trust a woman to notice clothes!! :)
Rob Munnelly
321. RobMRobM
@313. Thanks. Good refresher. So, who is impersonating Sammy - still leaning towards Cyndane.....
322. Planeswalker

Oh... well... you see I wanted some of the commenters to stay away from the sexist crap been hurling about. that it was petrosa's fault or meirin's or beidomon's or LTT's. i mean, c'mon, things happened because they were supposed to happen. Had the male channelers been handling saidar while women channelers handling saidin, would it really change the outcome?

I guess it would be better to tell my opinion on this one. RJ mentioned that should LTT's plan come about, that women and men AS combine their strength, it would still be a failure. Why? Although the seals would have been successful (and stronger maybe compared to saidin-made seals), there would still be a backlash. And that would affect now, both saidin and saidar. Totally reckless indeed - imagine all channelers in the world going bonkers!

What could be guessed from us after the 12 books is that, they need one more power to seal it without having a backlash. The TP. That way, it is a complete success. A strong seal and no backlash. Everyone sane. Except of course Suffaida. hehehe
Barry T
323. blindillusion
Tenkuu RE:~ Your post

*tip of the hat*

My apologies. I didn't read back up to #247. As for putting a quote from yourself in a later comment.., well I've never thought of it as presumptuous, but then, I suppose it's because I do it all the time.

About the only thing I take issue with is this:

As for my quote, I share subwoofer's opinion that it is an assumption, and not a fact, that both sides of the One Power would have been tainted if men and women had worked together at Lews Therin's plan. Since I mentioned this countless times, I don't understand your surprise at my response at all.

Sure, if the characters themselves had had this thought, it would be an assumption. But to ascribe that word to the author just doesn't make sense. Of course he knows it for fact.

Mr Jordan could have said in an interview that there's an entire mountain carved in the exact likeness of Rand reading a book, that the mountain is in the badlands of Shara and that it has been there since the AoL. Even if he never showed us that mountain in canon, or made reference to it at all via a single character, we'd still have to take his comment at face value.

It's just always surprised me when people go against what the creator of a work of fiction says. But that's just me. Then, I'm also one of the few, I believe, who doesn't think a work of fiction belongs to me because the author published it out into the world. It's still his/her's and his/her's alone. We just get to...view it. As an aside, I also don't think actors/actresses/sportstars owe me anything because they decided to step into the limelight. They're private lives are still their own. The media ladies and gents...what a cesspool.

As for such attributes as speaking properly and etiquette...I, my friend, am a true Southern Gentleman who has a passion for words.... In other words, it was ingrained in my personality at a very young age to be polite whenever possible and to at least attempt at all times use eloquence in my rambles.

Sure, I can be a right jerk as well...but I at least always try to be nice about it.

Isn't speculation fun?
324. cambosabe
The spear in the Hallows may be the Dragon Scepter, the ashandarei, and the People of the Dragon, all three. I have noticed that RJ likes to take an idea from myth, legend, etc., and put multiple aspects in one character and have multiple characters or ideas sharing one aspect. For instance, Rand al'Thor has echoes of both King Arthur and Thor, while dragons can be seen in the figures on Rand's arms (and, of course, LTT and Rand himself), dragkhar, and in raken and to'raken (maybe to be seen as drake and dragon?). It doesn't have to follow the myth/legend to any great degree. Thom once made a funny comment on how screwed up stories get over time ("instead of eating fire, maybe throwing it around like an Aes Sedai." That sounds like Merlin to me). I don't know if we'll ever know for sure but I expect it will be a RAFO.
Alice Arneson
325. Wetlandernw
cambosabe @324 - The spear in the Hallows may be the Dragon Scepter, the ashandarei, and the People of the Dragon, all three. And we know how much RJ loved to link things in threes. Wheee!
Thomas Keith
326. insectoid
Wet @325/3753: Yeah, like the Ta'veren Trio, the Supergirls, Minaviyne...

Alice Arneson
327. Wetlandernw
Insectoid... LOL. You guys and your trademarks. I'd be tempted, but what would I say? "Drip"? We have way too much dripping going on outdoors just now... the name once again fits just a little too well. *sigh* Soggy in Seattle...
328. Aye Aye Sedai
RE The Heated Argument
It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the True Power without the Dark One’s direct permission.
I never found that in the least contradictory to his response to Freelancer:
No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, and Rand doesn't have that.

WASN"T it established that this last statement was misquoted - so all the flack is over a misquote - Take a Breather !!

I am not sure what Brandon Really said but perhaps someone can ask him again at the signings he is still doing.
Alice Arneson
329. Wetlandernw
Aye Aye Sedai - I know that it's been called a misquote. However, our own Freelancer was the one having the conversation with BWS at the time (Nov 15), and I'm quoting his record of his own personal, face-to-face Q&A. Hence, I don't take it as "established that was misquoted" at all.

For the record, in BWS's later conversation (Nov 21) with Matt Hatch, he claimed that he hadn't actually answered the question as to whether Rand had the DO's permission. At that point, he restated it this way: "...generally one must have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it."

So that leaves us with either a) Freelancer's ears deceived him, b) Brandon made a direct statement that was wrong, or c) Brandon made a direct statement that gave away more than he wanted and he later tried to back away from it. I'm going with c). YMMV.
Barry T
330. blindillusion
Wetlandernw RE:~ Trademarks...

I found myself in the same fact, a worse one actually when one considers the meanings of my name here. And, well, there's no physical association that can be ascribed to it...with the possible exceptions of sight and speaking.

Hence the reason I created a tag-line. At least moderately creative, if I do say so myself.

Though I suppose I could say this:

Isn't speculation fun?©

Oh well, any way to express individuality and humor through font on a sheet of Internet paper and all that.

Also, Insectoid...I've noticed your new trademark as well. Gave me a nice chuckle (NC©). I thank you for that.

Nothing really plot related to add. Wetlandernw, I do plan to read through your comments starting at 288, but this is a rather busy time of year for a US Army Center and School as we're sending all the students home on **sigh** “Holiday Block Leave”, or “Victory Block Leave” as they call it here. **SIGH** They should have left it as Exodus. That word just has more...flair.

edit: Wetlander ~ thanks for answering the Heated Debate question. I really didn't know what to say in regards to it.
331. alreadymadwithcoats
Latecomer @320
Except Rand wore the combination before channeling the TP. He wore it meeting with Ituralde, for one.
Thomas Keith
332. insectoid
Wet @327/3755: Well, I thought of this one when Sub first started Woofing waayyyy back when, but forgot, and didn't think of it till Blind started his tagline ;)

Wet @329/3757: I believe Free's ears--I heard it too! (At least, I think I did!)

333. Freelancer
First of all, let us consider the question asked prior to examining the answer. My question to Brandon was, verbatim:
Is Rand's access to the True Power via Moridin?
Note very clearly that I did not ask about permission, did not mention the dark one in my question. His answer then becomes very telling:
No one may channel the True Power without the dark one's permission, and Rand does not have that.

Be assured that my ears did not deceive me, I was scribbling the answers as he gave them, I still have the papers tucked away for future reference. Also, insectoid and babokathy were there at the time, and they also saw the sly face Brandon was making while doing his best Aes Sedai impersonation.

So, me asking if Rand's access was via Moridin prompted that response. Can anything be deduced from this? I believe so. First off, it implicitly grants that it was indeed Rand who channeled the True Power (some folks debated for a while that Moridin actually channeled through Rand, but the text doesn't support this in the least). Second, since the question was about access to the True Power, the answer is also about access to the True Power, in spite of being somewhat of a non-answer. Rand channeled it. He did so without the dark one's permission, which is supposed to be a show-stopper. Therefore there is a method, a portal to access which side-steps the required permission. And it just so happens that Rand is linked with the one soul in the universe who does have that access. Occam, step on over here and slice this up for me...


And Wetlandernw@329 shares my sentiment, though I would state it slightly differently. I believe that Brandon was questioned about the answer he gave me, since it got posted along with other Storm Leader Q&A's on Theoryland, that it seemed his comment was self-exclusionary: Can't do this without permission, and you don't have permission, ergo you can't do what we know you did. So, he had to adjust his answer to be more clearly understandable (I understood it when he gave it), i.e. that it's very difficult to access the True Power without permission. This later statement remains in line with my interpretation of his answer to me. In fact, it virtually demands that the only reasonable reconciliation among the various statements is that the power was accessed via Moridin.

Now then, working my way backwards to subwoofer@316

As far as I know, Demandred and Rand have never been face to face. It was Ba'alzamon who told Rand that they had faced each other innumerable times. But he is also referring to innumerable turnings of the Wheel, so that's somewhat inconclusive. It could mean once during each turning, during the age known as the Age of Legends. I tend to believe that the Dragon has an incarnation in each of the ages of each turning. That would still not permit any in between LTT and Rand Al'Thor, since they are from consecutive ages, and based on my comments @280, that seems to make the most sense.
Barry T
334. blindillusion
Ah, I got you Free

It was one of those, "You had to be there..." kinda things.

*dives for bunker*
**pounds on door** Amalisa..let me in!!

Isn't speculattion fun?
Torie Atkinson
335. Torie
@ tenkuu, Wetlandernw, Planeswalker, everyone, etc.

Tenkuu, I'm the moderator, FYI. *waves*

You kids play nice, now. Don't waste words insulting one another. It's Cthulhu month and the Great Old Ones and I are like this. *crosses fingers*
Matthew Smith
336. blocksmith

How about "splash" or "plink" or "flood"?

To all regarding BWS comments on Rand channeling the TP...

Freelancer and I had a series of back and forths on the orginal spoilerific thread regarding different opinions on the meanings and implications of Rand channeling the TP...that said, I have no doubt that both his information and intrepretation of BWS's answers are correct. Free's comments, almost in their entirety, I find to be cogent and accurate. That goes pretty much for all the posters I consider resident gurus here...regardless of their own opinion on their guru-ness.

Certainly everyone is entitled to their respectfully stated opinions and should someone chose to not believe or buy into a direct quote from the Creator (RJ, BWS, Harriet,Maria, etc), that's ok too...illogical, but ok.
Rob Munnelly
337. RobMRobM
Wet - you can use the logo of my one Seattle-based knicknack I acquired during a visit to the City- a coffee mug with cute cartoon figures in rain gear and the dialogue balloon reading "Thumbitchen Wain"

EDIT - revised spelling of second word
338. Planeswalker
waaaaaaaa Torie!!!

i've been nice. i think? oh well, where did i say wrong? oh well. i'll go looking for that TP bunker then... i may need me some soul-searchin... =(
John Massey
339. subwoofer
Torie? Is that you? There is still time...

er... so from Blind's post I am to assume that at some point RJ did mention that to use both halves of the One Power on the DO, both would be tainted. Gonna have to go back here and do some head scratching. Maybe conquering magic with technology?

Using cannons on the DO? Mega gunpowder? Dropping the mountain down on the DO? Flying overhead like WW2 and dropping a bomb? Pretending to light candles for the DO birthday and Kabloowie!!

Birgit F
340. birgit
Here's a looney theory. Make Moridin himself the patch

Using a patch that wants to free the DO doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Fain would make a better seal. He hates the DO and has the Shadar Logoth evil that is opposite to the DO's evil.

Except Rand wore the combination before channeling the TP. He wore it meeting with Ituralde, for one.

The connection exists since the crossing of balefire streams that happend in Shadar Logoth. Other signs of the connection like Moridin's hand being affected by Rand's loss of his hand also happened before Rand used the TP.
341. Freelancer
::winks at Amalisa:: Thanks for not opening that door, me and the zipperhead have business...
::cracks his knuckles and stalks toward blindillusion:: Don't you have something better to do, like shine some senior 0's boots? ;-)


Yeah, why you? I mean, it hardly matters, given that she also included "everyone, etc.", but I'm pretty certain that my comments were more pointed than yours, even though I was never rude nor accusatory, as was believed.


I'll have your back just when you need it, too. Thanks.
Tricia Irish
342. Tektonica

You are so right about RJ borrowing and morphing legends. I'm researching many of the old heroic epics, looking for references that may appear in an altered form in the WoT.

Illiad and Odyssey
Bhagavad Vita
King Arthur/Green Knight/Gawain

I know this has been done on the 13th D and other places, but I'm having fun rereading stuff from high school, with a new focus. I'll let y'all know if/when I find anything significant. I'm hoping to find some clues to TG, Rand's fate, the Resolution of all....hahahaha. So hard to imagine, with so many things still dangling.

The above, and Chistmas prep are interfering with my cyber life, damn. Need to bake for the bunker. Is Fife's TP Bunker really dangerous? Or can we plan a holiday party there?
343. Freelancer

Once you get into looking at those mythologies with an eye to WoT connections, you begin to see the true depth of Jordan's genius, eh? Layers upon layers.

Nah, the bunker is fine. The Rickroller just wants to pretend that he is dangerous. Less dangerous than one of his links, that's for sure.
Barry T
344. blindillusion
Zipperhead is it? From a Squid? Myself…I’ll always consider myself a Liner, though I guess I’ll never launch/work on another jet. Sigh. Sometimes I miss the line. Out of curiosity, were you a Swab or a Zero? (Note, I’ve had very little interaction with the Navy. The few times I have it seemed those terms are what they called each.)

As for the shining of shoes, I have the 1LT do it. He’s a little intimidated by me. It’s funny. But next month…oh yes…next month. 1LT here I come.

As for the rather longwinded debate the came about regarding certain quotes given by a certain author…. Um, opps?

One of these days I’ll post something plot related again.

Isn’t speculation fun?
Tricia Irish
345. Tektonica

Is it really 3770!! Amazing.

Yes, the research is astounding me with RJ's depth of knowledge. What a voracious reader, across genres. I love the way he borrows, changes, adapts, and invents. It has added a new appreciation to all the books and threads.

Just a cruise around some of the other websites devoted to WoT helped, but actually getting into the seminal works has added to my own enjoyment of WoT. It's just time consuming!

Thanks for the heads up on R.Fife's nefarious activities, hehehehe. I'll still cook, if there's a party.
Bonnie Andrews
346. misfortuona
Wetlander @317
Just a thought while reading your wall. I agree with you that per BWS we can be quite sure that the DO didn’t give Rand permission to use the TP. I wonder though if Moridin purposefully chose to allow the connection.

Rand didn’t see Mor this time, but that isn’t a definite indication IMO. We know that it is possible to lie to the DO(thanks to Verin), at least in your mind. So the question is what could Mor gain from having Rand balefire Semi.
One less forsaken. Given his fatalistic ideas, and the fact that he is already Nablis, I don't see it likely, but then again why not just for kicks.

The opportunity to have Rand become addicted to the TP. Seems something that might be quite useful.
Or Maybe he isn’t as fatalistic as we think and with his link to Rand mellowing his badness somewhat, he’s decided to offer the DR a hint/ a straw/ something to help him.

This may have been covered somewhere earlier but I couldn't find it.
Tasneem Gould
347. Latecomer
R Fife's Bunker...

Don't forget, he's Yellow Ajah. So even if he goes psycho and hurts you, he'll heal you himself -immediately.

Birgit - exactly!

Freelancer - BwS comments - I think the reason people are confused is because one of those sites out there actually has a comment from someone else who was at the same signing as you, and he said something along the lines of "BwS didn't say that - this guy just heard what he wanted to hear".

That is why other people then came along and cast doubt on your interpretations - you must remember that you mentioned that you were reading his body language etc. and perhaps people have chosen to go with the 'spoken word' instead, if there is any doubt.
Thomas Keith
348. insectoid
Torie @335/3763: Hi Torie! ::waves back::

Sub @339/3767: BAHAHAhahaha!!

Late @347/3775: I'm not so sure I'd want to be healed that way... ;)

Tricia Irish
349. Tektonica
Miss Fortuona@346

I'm on the same bandwagon with Free. No permission granted, but Rand found the TP through his link with Moridan.

Whether Mori even knew about Rand using it hasn't been established. I, personally, felt that their connection had grown close enough that when Rand was totally panic stricken, with Semi manipulating him to kill Min, his adrenalin kicked in, and he saw the other source of power through Moridan and just took it.

I hadn't thought about Moridan plotting to lure Rand to the dark side, but it certainly could be that. We just don't know Moridan POV. Ummmmm.
Bonnie Andrews
350. misfortuona
tektonica @ 349
Is this Free's bandwagon? Is it going to the bunker and can I catch a ride too? :)
Karen Fox
351. thepupxpert
Wetlandernw @ 317 - thank you for your detailed post. I'm still learning how to think on my feet and I don't think I made myself as clear as I wanted to. I'm still not quite sure about the Moridin-Rand bond, I think there was some other force working, not necessarily a conspiracy, but perhaps that Rand bored a hole into the TP with Semi's inadvertent help? I'll have to keep reading so I can make a better contribution to the blog. I started re-reading (again) and I'm at Path of Daggers but now I just want to jump ahead to KOD so I can pick up on the whole Moridin/Rand dynamic!
Alice Arneson
352. Wetlandernw
insectoid @332 - How could I have forgotten - you were there too! And babokathy too, of course.

Freelancer @333 - Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate hearing your "eyes and ears" version - it makes a lot of sense. Good point that he was answering a different question.... AS impersonation indeed! I'm especially glad to get your interpretation; last night I was feeling a little irritated at Brandon. I'm glad not to feel that way any more.

blocksmith @ 336 - Thanks! I need a different perspective some days. :) I like "plink" although at the moment "flood" would be closer to what's outside. Then again, as I sit here by the fireplace, I can ignore the floody bits... Now I just have to have someone pass me the secret of the "TM" font. *hint hint*

RobM@337 - LOL!! Haven't seen that one, but given the general attitude toward coffee here, the number of mugs available is pretty phenomenal.

birgit @340 - Well, I was thinking of Moridin as more of a plug, I guess, with the actual seal on top of that, but Fain might work better anyway. It's still "evil to fight evil" but Mordeth is certainly anti-DO. As you say, at least Fain hates the DO with a passion and wouldn't be inclined to let him out.

misfortuona@346 - I haven't spent a lot of time considering Moridin's role in this, to tell you the truth. You make a good point, though. He could have done it on purpose. As for motivation, there's that painful hand he got from Semi blowing Rand's hand off... In the prologue, he wasn't very pleased with her. And what about Semirhage controlling Rand with the DB? What effect would that have on Moridin? It might be distinctly unpleasant for him - in fact, the few minutes she had it on Rand might have made Moridin realize that it would be a Very Bad Thing for him personally. We don't know from the text, yet, but wouldn't that be a fun question to ask BWS?
Did Moridin experience any effects himself when Semirhage put the Dominion Band on Rand?
I expect we'd get a RAFO, though. And you're right: it's quite possible to hide things (especially thoughts and motivations) from the DO - contrary to popular belief, he is NOT omniscient.

thepupxpert @351 - You're welcome. :) As far as the Rand-Moridin bond, I think RJ & BWS intend us to be unsure about it. We've been given some clues, but no clear definition of what's going on. We're supposed to speculate to our hearts' content, and then... RAFO!
Barry T
353. blindillusion
Wetlandernw RE:~ ™

Copy and paste. Of course, you could of been joking, but hey, it's what I'm here for.


Isn't speculation fun?
Bonnie Andrews
354. misfortuona
wetlander @352
I just love how you take these little ideas and flesh them out. I hadn't even considered the fact that Moridin was connected to Rand.
If you consider the connection between the two (Rand and Moridin) as something somewhat like the warder bond (wow this poor guy has more lines tied to him - but that's off topic) or more likely the link between chanellers, than that might explain, maybe, another way that Rand could have accessed the TP.

Also I don't actually see the link as either the warder bond or the link, but something related to both.
Bonnie Andrews
355. misfortuona
One other question, and then I have to get back to the real world for a while. Tis the season after all.
Were any of the other FS aware of the connection between Rand and Moridin?
Jacy Clark
356. Amalisa
blindillusion@334 and Freelancer@341

Wow... tough call, guys. On the one hand, my dad and uncle were both Navy. On the other, I spent a lot of my formative years in Mississippi.

Fortunately (for me), I was down for the count with a headache and totally missed the commotion at the door.

Next time we'll try to work it out in a civilized manner... you know... bribes? ;)


I know! Exploding Candy-gram!

Th-th-th-that's all, folks! ya-da-da da da daaaaah!
Jacy Clark
357. Amalisa
PS... how does one make one of those nifty tag things??
Barry T
358. blindillusion
But Amalisa... I've already offered you the services of my pup Zero to guard against spiders for you.

Taking out the DO WWII era bombers or Exploding Candy-gram style (NC©) would be awesome, but I think this is how it should go down.

Isn't speculation fun?
Thomas Keith
359. insectoid
Blind @353/3781 and others, re: ™: If your computer has a character mapper, you can insert the TM symbol that way. (Character Map in Windows, KCharSelect in Linux (and probably others), erm...ah. TextEdit for Mac OS X has one built-in, 'Edit->Special Characters'.)

Of course, if I'm using Windows, I just use the ASCII character code Alt+0153.

Tricia Irish
360. Tektonica
wetlandernw@352 & fortuona@355

You two are brilliant! We've all been going on about Moridan feeling Rand's missing hand, but it didn't occur to me that he would also feel the A'dam!
Of course! He could've even reached through Rand to blow it away and off Semi, perhaps.....or let Rand at the TP in order to blast it and her. Ummmmm.

As for other FS being aware of Moridan's connection to Rand. I don't think so.I think it would be the last thing he'd want them to know. They might either be:
A. Threatened by the power the two of them would wield, or
B. Question Moridan's sincerity/objectivity with Rand in his head, or even
C. Tattle to the DO!!
craig thrift
361. gagecreedlives
I am wondering how far this link with Moridin and Rand will go. They are already feeling physical sensations. Will it go so far as information will start seeping from one mind to another. A general gist of each others plans streaming back and forth. Could be a difficult battle for the universe if each side knows what the other is doing.

If this does occur I think it would give Rand a slight advantage. As he could distance himself from team light's plans and still have faith in Mat, Perrin, Elayne, the Aiel to fight the good fight. Im not sure if Moridin could say the same for his lackeys and the other forsaken.
362. Freelancer

Thank you for that info. Any chance you can conjure up what site you read that on? I'm curious about the precise wording if my quotes are being refuted. All I can say is that I place great significance on accurately and reliably conveying information I acquire in such a manner. I have zero reason to embellish upon an answer, to color an answer in support of a pet theory, or otherwise misrepresent what was said to me. I value integrity and truth first.

If a reader has another conclusion that can be deduced from the same facts as presented @333 (3761), I'd like to hear it.
Barry T
363. blindillusion
Here is everything I could find regarding this debate. Freelancer, I believe that what follows covers what Latecomer was talking about. See Writo below.

So, here we go:

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt:There was some confusion about Rand and the Dark One’s permission, so for clarification’s sake, did Rand have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power?

Brandon: I have not answered that. If anyone says that I have, I have not. What I have said specifically is, this is recording : generally one must have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it.  It is good that you have asked this so I can make sure on the record that is the answer I have given.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting. Not pertinent to the discussion, but it's fuel for the fire :
I didn't hear the question but someone asked something about Rand's and Moridin's souls being intertwined. Sanderson said that many souls' threads are frequently woven together in the Pattern such as Birgitte and Gaidal. He said that Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting
Q: Did Rand directly have the Dark One’s permission to channel the True Power?

A: It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the True Power without the Dark One’s direct permission.

This lead to lots of discussion about the whole Semirhage death scene. Basically, she felt betrayed by the Dark One, and Brandon says she’s a very astute person. Brandon also said that Moridin and the Dark One are on the same page with most things and that Moridin is the most trustworthy Forsaken for the Dark One.

My interpretation is that Rand channeled the True Power through the link with Moridin, but this was not discussed. Also it was strongly implied that idea that Dark One served Semirhage up on a platter for Rand to balefire is true.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Is Rand's access to the True Power via his link with Moridin, created at Shadar Logoth?

A. No one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission.  Rand doesn't have that. 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Writo reporting

I was at that signing, I was literally right next to Brandon as he answered this question, and that is far from his exact wording.

The response was more accurately something like: So far as we know, no one may channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission.  Semirhage certainly seemed to think she was betrayed.

There was never a comment about Rand not having permission.

Of course, I'm sure by now you know where I found this. But here is a direct link.

Which stems from here.
Alice Arneson
364. Wetlandernw
@363 - which makes me think that "Writo" was standing there when someone else asked a slightly different question and was given the answer he heard. Seriously, in the time BWS spent at any one signing, how many questions were repeated by about every third person in line? Or at least half a dozen times over the course of an evening? I wish people would think of things like that before they start accusing others of misquoting. Writo may be perfectly accurate in what he heard, but that doesn't mean he was anywhere nearby when Freelancer was talking with BWS. Oy, indeed. Can someone find me this guy so I can whack him? ;)
Barry T
365. blindillusion
Wetlander RE:~ Whack. WARNING: if you have an aversion to animated might not want to click that link ;)


As to you other points. My thoughts exactly.

But, sigh...I just deliver the news. I try very, very hard not to make it. Sure, sometimes I fail in a most amazing way, but hey, at least I try to be amusing with it.
366. Freelancer
Brandon's later answer has to take precedence. He says that he didn't specify directly whether Rand did or did not have the dark one's permission. That is what everyone must operate by, as his word is now canon. That does not change what I wrote down as my questions were being answered.

As to Writo's comments, I can only offer this. The comment by Brandon about Semirhage believing she had been betrayed was definitely in response to someone else's question. It did not come up with mine, but I do remember hearing it.

Let me put one more tack on this. (Paraphrased, leaving out the disputed passage, and adding a qualifier from a later answer):

Q: Did Rand get at the True Power through Moridin?

A: You (normally) can't get at it without the Dark One's permission.

That should add up the Brandon's intent in answering this business as it stands today. Now, why did a question about Moridin get an answer about the dark one? How many different things could it mean? Why later add the qualifier? Let each reader make their own conclusion. I find no reason to alter mine.
Thomas Keith
367. insectoid
This is the right site, isn't it? TGS spoiler thread? And no comments in half a day?? Where is everyone? Did R.Fife scare you away? ;)

Come on guys/gals, there's only 206 comments till Christmas! Or, until December 25th, depending on what you happen to celebrate!

On the Brandon quote debate: I heard with my own ears what BwS's response was. However, I agree with Free that if BwS refuted it at a later signing, then that's what we should believe. 'Nuff said.

Surely there must be something from the book that hasn't been discussed enough. Hmm... have we done a "favorite quote" poll yet? I could submit one of my favorites...

TGS ch. 28, Night in Hinderstap:
"She's not a woman, Talmanes," Mat whispered warningly. "She's an Aes Sedai. Don't think of her as a woman."

"I'm trying, Mat," Talmanes said. "But it's hard." He hesitated, then added, "Burn me."

"Be careful or she will," Mat said, tugging his hat down slightly in the front. "In fact, she nearly did that just a moment ago."

368. JezzeE
My favourite quote in TGS was chapter 20, On a Broken Road:

"I'm not going to give up gambling," Mat muttered. "Or drinking."
"So I believe you told me," Talmanes said. "Three or four times so far. I half believe that if I were to peek into your tent at night, I'd find you mumbling it in your sleep. 'I'm going to keep gambling! Bloody, bloody gambling and drinking! Where's my bloody drink? Anyone want to gamble for it?'" He said it with a perfectly straight face, but once agian there was that hint of a smile in his eyes, if you knew just where to look.

Actually laughed out loud at this one.

The Rand-killing-Min scene seems to be the most emotional for most people, and, I believe I am going to be flamed for my comment which is: I have been waiting and waiting for Rand to 'harden up' and have been cursing all the women that just don't seem to want to leave him alone. When Semi captured Rand and forced him to choke Min, yes I was shocked, but the outcome I thought was profitable, Rand had ceased being a person with feelings and emotions and was now a force - a force that killed and burned without feeling. A force strong enough to win Tarmon Gaidon. He exiled Cadsuane, that annoying, meddling green FINALLY and I thought that was the end. However, Rand decided to go and make himself soft again, ending my short lived happiness. Cadsuane won. That eats me up inside.

I don't know if this is for the good or bad, all I know is that I totally agreed with Rand and his 'hardening up.' All in all, BS did a good job with the book, and while being more direct than RJ, he got the character traits just right and I felt... comfortable reading the book
Alice Arneson
369. Wetlandernw
blindillusion - have you got a username and all that over on Dragonmount? I haven't bothered yet, for no particular reason, but I'm thinking about it. Obviously, I'm wondering if they are open to making a correction to the reports...
Tess Laird
370. thewindrose
I enjoyed(apreciated indeed after reading the rest of the book) this bit from the 36th chapter: The Death of Tuon - Verin Speaking -
I received this paper, Matrim, from a Darkfriend," she said, "who told me - thinking me a servent of the Shadow - that one of the Forsaken had commanded that the men in these pictures be killed. You and Perrin are in grave danger."

And this one brought tears to my eyes: from A visit with Verin Sedai-
"Your soul is of pure white, Verin," Egwene said softly. "Like the Light itself."
Alice Arneson
371. Wetlandernw
I decided to go back and do my own (zillionth) reread, after having participated in the discussion here on for the best part of the last year. Figured I might see some things I'd missed before, or see them differently. So... y'all will probably get odd bits thrown at you off and on. Just now, I was reading the first of Rand's dreams in TEotW, while he's sleeping in the chair next to Tam's sickbed after the Trolloc attack.
Rand's heart pounded as he ran, and he stared in dismay at the barren hills surrounding him. This was not just a place where spring was late in coming; spring had never come here, and never would come. Nothing grew in the cold soil that crunched under his boots, not so much as a bit of lichen. He scrambled past boulders, twice as tall as he was; dust coated the stone as if never a drop of rain had touched it. The sun was a swollen, blood-red ball, more fiery than on the hottest day of summer and bright enough to sear his eyes, but it stood stark against a leaden cauldron of a sky where clouds of sharp black and silver roiled and boiled on every horizon. For all the swirling clouds, though, no breath of breeze stirred across the land, and despite the sullen sun the air burned cold like the depths of winter."
(Emphasis mine.) Recognize that scene...? Somehow the description hit me as a cross between a "portal stone world" (one of the worst ones) and the prologue of TGS - like it might be a world that would result from losing TG without the DO having quite escaped or the Pattern unraveling; one where the Bore is almost open and the DO will soon be free... ::shivers::

This is the also dream section that ends with Shayol Ghul pulling on him:
Ghostly strings entwined around his heart, pulling him, calling him to the spire mountain. Tears ran down his face, and he sagged to the ground. He felt his will draining away like water out of a holed bucket. Just a little longer, and he would go where he was called. He would obey, do as he was told. Abruptly he discovered another emotion: anger. Push him, pull him, he was not a sheep to be prodded into a pen. The anger squeezed itself into one hard knot, and he clung to it as he would have clung to a raft in a flood.
Foreshadowing much? Anger, a hard knot, his stubbornness the only thing that keeps him from succumbing to the pressure from the DO (FS? BA?) and gives him some hope of retaining who he is at the core. You know, the girls are right when they talk about how incredibly stubborn he can be. Of course, they're also wrong when they see it only in its negative aspect; I'm betting that same stubbornness will come back to be his strongest defense during TG, and what will enable him to do whatever it is he needs to do.

Also... substitute "box" for "pen" and you have about half of his plot arc in TGS...
Kate Collura
372. dreamwalker
thewindrose @ 370

I noticed that line of Verin's on re-read also and laughed out loud. I haven't begun to re-read the series since TGS, but look forward to finding more little moments like that. Knowing more about Verin just makes her more intriguing.
373. VoxOrange
I was disappointed in Graedal's death. Because earlier she recovered an angreal from Sammael's stash. I thought this would be a "Chekhov's gun" element - which would get a paid off later in the narration. I still think she's Balefired and done for. Graedal did get to use it against Cyndane & Moghedien - but that was something of an appetiser instead of a main meal.
John Massey
374. subwoofer
I believe it was said that G will make a comeback.

John Massey
376. subwoofer
but from a reliable source... ie, not me...

377. Freelancer
Brandon said that we would have more Graendal POV, though with a RAFO over whether they were current or retro. He has also said that there would definitely be retro-POV occasions in the next volume. At least one of these will be Galad's entourage meeting Perrin's.
Jack Diamond
378. violetdancer
There was a conversation between Sammael and Granedal, where he chides her for the palace in Arad Domon. She replies by telling him how careful she is and shows her Illusion identity. I may be misremembering but I thought she had an escape plan should al'Thor learn she is there.

Also Graendal claimed some "alliance" with Aran'gar of late. I hope both are toast but wouldn't be too shocked to see Granedal rear her ugly self again.
Cynthia Ahmar
379. tenkuu
Planeswalker @ 322

Well, the only thing I can say about that is that even if the women had held saidin, if we follow the laws of nature, men would still have been stronger. But perhaps more importantly, the very nature and character of women (Aes Sedai at least) would probably not change.

About the True Power, to be completely honest, I cannot imagine any good ever coming out of that being used. Least of all against the Dark One, since it is *his* power.

blindillusion @ 323

There can be contradictions, even coming from the author. But putting that aside, as long as it didn't actually happen and can't be proven to be fact, I do consider it an assumption. However likely a theory is, it remains a theory until proof is shown that makes it a fact.

I think that when the story is progressing in a way that almost contradicts a statement that Jordan made long ago, it can be said that maybe he changed his mind. It does happen for authors, after all, as their stories progress.

And btw, your comment with a bunch of Sanderson interview quotes seems to prove all the more that there is just no official one-and-only answer to the whole debate of whether Rand had the Dark One's permission to channel the True Power or not.

Aye Aye Sedai @ 328

Heated? Well, I am sorry to say the instigators of the "heat" of the argument were Freelancer and Wetlandernw.

As for the actual quotes, I don't remember anything mentioned by Sanderson himself that would prove either one a misquote, but I'll be more than happy if someone has actual confirmation of said misquote. This is, after all, a very minor point to me. It was only part of the bigger point I was making about cooperation, and since it was the past anyway, it's not like it matters very much what *could* have happened.

Freelancer @ 333

That is what's called perception. Others could have perceived something else from that response depending on their own thoughts on the matter. Often, we hear what we want to hear, and that is essentially subtext. Reading between the lines is fun, but as long as the answer was not definitive (especially since it wasn't even an answer to your actual question), then we have no confirmation. We are only left with our own thoughts and speculations. That being said, I stated mine. I do believe we're all entitled to our opinions, are we not? Especially you in the US with your First Amendment. (I'm in Canada)

Torie @ 335

Nice to meet you then. I have to say though, I have no idea if you ever commented on any of my past replies to older threads because I stopped checking these. That being said, with all due respect, I would still like to know what of what I said could have possibly been perceived as any kind of derogative, especially when compared to Freelancer and Wetlandernw's blatantly rude comments.

Freelancer @ 341

Your comments were "never rude nor accusatory"? Well, I suppose it's true that ignorance is bliss. :) However, if you actually plan to uphold that kind of polite attitude from this point on, at the very least, how about you respect my opinion just as I respect yours?

Latecomer @ 347

My point exactly. When something is not a direct answer to a question, it is a matter of personal interpretation. We hear what we want to hear. All of us are guilty of that to some extent.

JezzeE @ 368

Actually, while I weep for Rand as a person, I agree with you that as the Dragon Reborn, this did need to happen to him, and he did need to get hard enough to kill the female Forsaken without any feeling. Regarding Graendal and her fortress (or whatever it was), either way, these people mostly likely could not have been Healed of strong Compulsion, especially when they'd have been under for it for a good long time. So killing everyone along with Graendal, was it much different than watching that boy die after Compulsion was lifted from him? Not really. I mean, the end result is the same and the former is more merciful.

VoxOrange @ 373

My opinion is that Graendal did not deserve a better death, being a coward.

insectoid @ 367

I do believe I'm to blame for that. *grins* Or rather, the lack of me is.
Theresa Gray
380. Terez27
I have added another quote from Freelancer to the interview database, in the Rand, Ishamael, and Shadow categories. Writo's comment was never in the One Power/True Power category, though I did link to Brandon's clarification from Freelancer's quote in that category.

You'll notice that I did not add Writo's caveat to all of Freelancer's quotes in the database - just the one question that was challenged. That's because it was a good report.

I don't know what to believe as to what Brandon said about Rand's permission, but I do know that most folks at Theoryland including myself believe that Rand accessed the True Power through his link with Moridin, no matter what Brandon said (he was dodgy on the issue, but left the proper loopholes), but we also tend to believe that the Dark One would would most likely not be opposed to it. Rand did not have the Dark One's direct permission—that much is clear—but just because Rand wasn't granted permission in the Pit of Doom doesn't mean that the Dark One would be opposed to Rand drawing it through Moridin, especially considering what it does to the user.

It's not clear to what extent the Semirhage episode was planned, but it's quite believable that Rand's drawing of the True Power was anticipated.
Tess Laird
381. thewindrose
One other thing to remember about most of Freelancers questions - they happened after hours so to speak. When he approached BWS at the signing, he introduced himself and showed Brandon the page filled with questions from us on this blog. Brandon then asked if Freelancer could wait until after the signing was over, and he would try to answer all the questions then.
Again - thank you Freelancer for asking and Brandon Sanderson for answering - and RAFO'ing!;)
Theresa Gray
383. Terez27
Yeah, I know some of his questions were after hours, though he didn't exactly make clear which quotes were which, so when Writo posted his challenge of the quote at Dragonmount, there was no reason to believe at the time that Freelancer had asked this question in private - because why would he ask a question that had already been addressed in the Q&A session? In any case, Matt's interview of Brandon was also in private, taken in a car on the way from one signing to another, and documented by audio. So as far as the general fandom is concerned, Brandon's comment in Matt's interview is the official quote, and we must take it that Brandon has NOT confirmed that Rand did not have the Dark One's permission to use the True Power. However, even before Freelancer's quote, Brandon had strongly implied that Rand did not have permission, so it makes little difference in the debates. That strong implication is almost as good as outright confirmation, especially considering that the link as Rand's means to access is so OBVIOUS. :)

@Wetlandernm - no problem. Thanks for letting me know this discussion was going on.
Matthew Smith
384. blocksmith
Wow...things have slowed. Must be the holidays.


With regards to your comments for Freelancer@333, I would argue that it is interpretation, not perception, that is the issue here. There is no doubt that questions were asked and answers, with football fields of wiggle room, provided. It is this wiggle room within which our interpretations of the answers are made and our opinions formed. And you are correct, your opinion is as valid and welcome as anyone else's. And this is not throwing a stone at you, but the caveat being it is respectfully delivered. In truth, there are still fans out there who believe that Taim=Demandred even though Mr. Jordan himself unequivocally stated that is not the case. They are entitled to their opinion.

With regards to Torie, you don't have to like her, but in the immortal words of Eric Cartman, you must respect her authority. She is very polite in issuing direction (i.e., making commenters play nice) when things get a bit heated. I know as I learned for myself and appreciated her correction in lieu of outright banishment.


Thanks for the update...all good information.
John Massey
385. subwoofer
Yes, Torie is awesome, and would be my BFF if she came through with that dingle ball...

@all, you know- by now we should be putting aside semantics and getting on with getting on. Is what was said so important that it is worth spanning several days with animosity? I think there are bigger fish to fry in this day and age. Let's just agree to move on and forgive.

I have my own bunker now so if there are any shenanigans, me and my bourbon know where the door is. Lannis, GCL and JEJ have open invitations, the rest well... we will see what Santa has to say.

I believe Free got his Christmas present early. Having an extended conversation with BwS is a very oportune thing. Living up here in the borderlands I miss out on all these little things. But I am just down the road from St. Nick so it balances out.

This may be a dead issue, but wasn't it said that the weaves balance out the Power differences. What I mean is that men may have more juice, but women can link. Also, men can do Fire and Earth better, but women can tap Air and Spirit better than any man could. IIRC somebody said it wasn't fair, what use is Spirit but if the weaver knows what they are doing...

386. J.Dauro

I don't believe it was
Also, men can do Fire and Earth better, but women can tap Air and Spirit better than any man could.

IIRC it was that Men in general were better with Fire and Earth, and Women with Air and Water. Spirit was about equal. But there are some Women who are better at Fire or Earth than some men and vice-versa.

Good luck in the new bunker. I hope it has a good heater.
387. Freelancer
Terez27@380 & 383

Thank you very kindly. For clarity, the question in. . . question, was not done "after hours", but after the main signing line had ended, and Brandon was signing store stock. Several folks were close enough to have heard, which happen to include another commentor here who corroborates my quote.

I do appreciate your handling of the "controversy", and promise you I had, and have no wish to be part of any such debate about an author's quote.

It's comforting to hear that the gurus at Theoryland view the situation as I do. I can only say that with Brandon's original answer to me, it left an apparent contradiction, and I would imagine he got emails and tweets about it, so clarified his answer at later stops on the tour. I personally cannot fathom a contradiction between saying you can't do that without the boss's permission and you don't have the boss's permission, when the original question was about the potential side-door around the boss's permission, which got no direct answer at all. To me it was quite clear that he was acknowledging, in sneaky Aes Sedai style, that Rand pulled the True Power through his link with Moridin, without actually saying so. I can find no other logical purpose to the answer he gave and the way he gave it, given the question. If he didn't want such an acknowlegement to be considered as implied by that answer, he should have RAFO'd. He did not. Q.E.D.
John Massey
388. subwoofer
Ahhhhh- I stand corrected, but anyway the point was are Men and Women equal? Somehow I still scratch my head at the way RJ wrote Eggy's rude awakening when Rand tosses her around like a kitten. On the other hand, women are masters at brow beating men into listening. With a sniff or a braid tug or a tirade of berating, they do seem to have the upper hand. About the only person that weathers the storm in the books is Bryne. The whole rain washing off a bolder bit. What thread am I on? Tam also did a reasonable job with Caddy as well. At the end of the day I guess what I am saying is that back in AoL things were on par, but right now I think too much has been forgotten.

The interrogation of Moggy back in the day helped rediscover much. It also makes me think that the Super Girls were just scratching the surface of what can be done. And it is a shame that so much was forgotten. As when the books started out, AS were just a rumor, now they are fact. It follows that what the AS believe is impossible is the same, and soon all will be fact.

Incidentally, no problem with heat. Have a fire pit.

James Jones
389. jamesedjones
388 subwoofer
Incidentally, no problem with heat. Have a fire pit.
And we have to keep it fairly cool. No one wants the drinks to get warm. Bring a scarf, and a hollow leg.

Edit: This comes from a native Texan. Take the temp appraisal for what it's worth.
Bonnie Andrews
390. misfortuona
jdj@389 speaking as a native Canadian who grew up on winter 'bushparties' I can tell you that while cold drinks are nice, when whysky starts to get slushy you really want a good fire and more than just a scarf. Shivers in rememberance :)
James Jones
391. jamesedjones
Whoaty Mahoty! Slushy whisky? I had to put on a coat just to consider that.
Bonnie Andrews
392. misfortuona
Okay so maybe the slush did come from the snow we poured whisky over, but beer didn't stand a chance. Liquid in the can, but as soon as you popped the top it would turn to ice.

edit spelling too many y's
Alice Arneson
393. Wetlandernw
Slushy whisky... Or whisky slushies... You guys kill me.

jej - been missing you and your humor! Hope all is and has been well, and you've just been busy.
Tasneem Gould
394. Latecomer
So funny reading about the snowstorms and the 'cold weather' comments from everyone. Here in NZ we are forecasted to have the best weather in years - Hot day, warm winds etc.

With the recent tempramental weather, we're happy to have some nice settled 'summer' weather for a change.

*Sending some warmth your way*

Merry Christmas to all you fantastic people with your humour and crazy comments and profound insights and penchant for pretend alchohol :) - see you all next year!
John Massey
395. subwoofer
@LC- sure, rub it in. Maybe you could visit the set of LotR and burn a candle for me or something. Schmuck! It may get up to -5°C on Christmas day. yay. Yes, this winter has been quite the puck to the family jewels.

There is no fake alcohol here. We Canadians take our drinking seriously. I have the scars to prove it.

Incidentally, doing the ice cider this year. Serve chilled.

And for all, as my wife is Polish, have to give a shout out to vodka. Na zdrowie. 'Cause we roll like that.

Merry Christmas and Blessings to all. Stay safe and warm. Unless you are Latecomer, then maybe a freak snow storm will come your way and you can experience a true white Christmas.

Edited for

John Massey
396. subwoofer
John Massey
397. subwoofer
John Massey
398. subwoofer
John Massey
399. subwoofer
John Massey
400. subwoofer
John Massey
401. subwoofer
Woooooo! Light it up!

Edit- sorry folks! I gotta be me:D

Lannis .
403. Lannis
Hey all, just popping in to say a quick Merry Christmas, or whatever you may be celebrating! Been busy, been gone, and just thought I'd say a quick hello!

I see Sub's enjoying himself as usual! ;)

As for the bonfire: we have some old telephone poles in need of removal, they're always good for a burn!

Oh, and I was a runner up on one of the Hitchhiker-themed giveaways! I won an Artemis Fowl graphic novel--excellent, as I have little boys who hopefully will grow up into avid readers! Thanks! Merry Christmas to me!

Take care, everyone, and have a healthy, happy holiday! :)
Bonnie Andrews
404. misfortuona
I'm with Insectoid. LMAF
Lannis congratulations and Best of the Season to you. mummblemummbleluckyshouldhavebeenme ;)
Tess Laird
405. thewindrose
Ouch - subwoofer -
I have my own bunker now so if there are any shenanigans, me and my bourbon know where the door is. Lannis, GCL and JEJ have open invitations, the rest well... we will see what Santa has to say.

~So am I loved:(

Maybe you need another song;) Makes much more sense after 7 Tom @ Jerry's...

Hey Lannis - awesome!!!
Sam Mickel
406. Samadai
Some of us love you thewindrose. You can come to my bunker party.
407. Freelancer
Heya sub,

It got down to 54F last night, and never got above 73F today. But that's San Diego for you. Least variable weather in the lower 48. Boring. No snow. I love it.


Seven Tom & Jerrys? Egads. Ok, in that condition, say this quickly:
I split a sheet
a sheet I split
upon a splitted
sheet I sit.

And don't blame me if you get it umm...wrong, blame the alcohol.
Thomas Keith
408. insectoid
Free @407: Oh that's awful! I can't even say that fast sober!

But maybe I just don't have a nimble tongue. ;)

Tess Laird
409. thewindrose
That would not be a good one to say in front of the kids.
I have not partaken of 7, that would most likely make me a bit sick - to much sweetness.
I was just saying that Yogi is more fun if a bit intoxicated:)
It brings back memories for me because my father used to bring out the lp at family gatherings after everyone had had quite a few.

Samadai - I'll be there, any preferences for drinks? If you can tell I do love parties!

I just took the dog out and we are getting some snow! It made me think about Elayne's trek to Caemlyn after it started to snow like mad. I cannot imagine doing it in a dress. That would really be hard. If it would have been me, I would have used the power to create a path, if it was so necessary to walk there.(And get ahold of some pants and boots!) But most likely, I would have just traveled.
Cynthia Ahmar
410. tenkuu
Terez @ 383

I have a problem with you using the term "obvious" when nothing is confirmed as fact. Not to mention the use of caps which is considered rude.

blocksmith @ 384

That comment rather came out of nowhere, don't you think? I have no reason to dislike her, but it's a simple fact that everyone's actions are motivated by reason and logic. I simply wished to know exactly which of my comments was considered rude, not that she said that about mine outright, but she could have confirmed or denied it either way.

I'll thank you not to make admonitions based on fiction, even if you didn't mean it that way. Because it is pure fiction that I was anything but perfectly polite in giving my own opinion. I'm not saying I stayed perfectly polite after the individuals in question jumped down my throat simply for disagreeing with them (in some cases while misreading or failing to read at all the whole of what I had written), but my opinion was definitely given in a polite fashion.

Oh and, btw, interpretation is a synonym of perception, which makes the most perfect of sense. Check here if you don't believe me.

subwoofer @ 385

There's no animosity on my part, but I'd like for people to recognize the truth of others' animosity.

Freelancer @ 387

In reference to your comment about not seeing the contradiction, you are doing what you accused me of earlier, which is to say grossly misquoting. The only difference between us being that my misquote was an intentional summary whereas yours intentionally omits important details. Please be careful of doing that. You should also be careful of saying things like "to me it's quite clear" while sounding as though this is a fact when it is mere speculation. My opinion is just that: an opinion, a personal theory, and I acknowledge it as such. It's my opinion and definitely no fact. You don't need to get pompous about your own either. There's something to be said for humility.
Sam Mickel
411. Samadai

Please give it a rest. no one wants or needs to be talked to that way. I am sure that it is all just a big misunderstanding. We welcome you to the post, and you are welcome to say anything you like, but maybe you can just move on and help make these posts fun, educational and entertaining. I can't really speak for anyone else here, but from what I have seen on this board from since I have been here, since last January is that everyone is pretty easy going. we all just want to enjoy the Wheel of Time reread and have a good time commenting back and forth. So if you feel offended by some, please note that we are like a family, we might dislike some of them, but that doesn't mean we keep bringing up the same problems. Please join us and help us make these posts an exciting time.
Alice Arneson
412. Wetlandernw
By the way, if anyone is unfamiliar with her, "Terez" is one of the major gurus (a real one!) over at, where she is the "Quotemistress." She's done a LOT of work collecting input from different sources, most recently from Brandon's TGS signing tour. As with any such collection, you have to take the inputs for what they're worth; some are transcriptions of audio/video recordings, some were provided by careful note-takers, some were people jumping in with what they remember a few days later. But there's certainly a lot of fodder for discussion and debate!
Barry T
413. blindillusion
RE:~ Terez

I agree. She does the most fabulous work at Most of the quotes I dazzle with come from her compilation, which is why I always try to link it in any post I write which derives from the quotes she compiled. I always stand in awe of her work every time I read through it. A most excellent contribution to the world of Mr Jordan.

edit: Discard that "4" and one can see I have a most amusing thing going tonight. =)
414. Tinaa
Here's one I can't figure out...

In the Glossary of TGS, there is a quite substantial entry about Shara, which I believe has led some of us to the conclusion that Shara will feature in the next two books in some way. That's all good.

The channelers in Shara, known as the Ayyad, are tattooed on the face at birth. I want to know HOW do the Sharans know that the child being born will turn out to be a channeler? I understand that there is no breeeding between Ayyad and Non-Ayyad, but is is a genetic certainty that all children born to Ayyad women will grow up and spark?

Any theories?
Barry T
415. blindillusion
Tinaa RE:~ Shara

Having not read the Glossary entry, along with thinking Shara won't play much of a role in the things to come, I'm going to go on pure speculation and say:

Any child born of the Ayyad is tattooed so they can be watched. Any adult so marked who does not channel by a certain age is most likely killed.
John Massey
416. subwoofer
Whew! I've got 40 people descending upon my house tomorrow! I think it was intentional. I am sure at the end of the day it will be fun if the house is still standing.

Anywho, I will attempt to post later, wife permitting, but you guys know how I feel about all of ya! Good times had by all. Blanket invite to the Bunker, maybe I will hunker down there and hide from the relatives. At the very least, sneak out for a quick sip of my stash. Can't let the kids see Uncle Sub's secret to keeping a holiday smile on :)

Cynthia Ahmar
417. tenkuu
Samadai @ 411

I am not talking to anyone in any particular way. And family, btw, should try to help one be a better person, namely a more polite person.
Lannis .
418. Lannis
Subwoofer @ 385: Aw, geez, Sub! ::blushes:: Thanks for the open invite to the bunker! I'm honoured! As for shenanigans... erm... I, um, promise to be good? :O

As for everyone else, I find it equally hilarious that our little discussion has slowed so much, and that we're all ducking in to say a Merry Merry and whatnot...

That said: have a great one! I hope everyone makes it safely into 2010! Cheers!

Gotta jet... busy busy... Santa's showing up soon and we're not quite ready! Later!
John Massey
419. subwoofer
Got wifi in the bunker- have netbook, will travel.

Has anybody yet made a link between Chel Vanin and Santa?

I'm tellin' ya, there is something there.

Both are fat.
Both are surprisingly nimble.
Both are experts in B & E.
Both can show up, do their thing and be gone in the blink of an eye.
Both are good judges of reindeer/horse flesh.
Both have ruddy complexions, one from too much nog, one from er..."nog".
Both have been know to carry a fat sack around with them, supposedly filled with um... presents.


@Lannis, us OG Canadians/ Borderlanders have to stick together- Misfortuona is in there too- Rider Pride.

Theresa Gray
420. Terez27
@tenkuu 413

1. obvious=/=confirmed. The English language has a wide vocabulary to choose from for a reason.

2. Speaking in all caps is considered rude (shouting), but to use caps every now and then to emphasize a word is not.

3. Merry Christmas

@blindillusion - thanks for helping to get the database out there! I have posted it at the major sites, but a lot of the smaller sites fall through the cracks. Also, I'm working on a wiki version of it that's taggable and searchable.

(edited cause doesn't like special characters)
Tricia Irish
421. Tektonica
I'm dancing as fast as I can guys are the best. Thank you, and Tor, and Torie, et al, for a great venue and such entertaining and enlightening comments!

Hopefully, after tomorrow peace will descend on my home, and the thread, and reading/thinking/posting will be possible again.

Best wishes to you all, and Merry/Happy Christmas/Holiday to you all.

Party in the Bunker Dec. 31st!! Sub's or Samadai's? Or we could "travel" back and forth. Champagne, Maker's, or Stoli?
Bonnie Andrews
422. misfortuona
We Wish You a Merry??•*¨*•.¸¸? ¸¸.•*¨*•?? Christmas??•*¨*•.¸¸? ¸¸.•*¨*•??We Wish You a Merry ??•*¨*•.¸¸? ¸¸.•*¨*•??Christmas ? ? ?We Wish You A Merry??•*¨*•.¸¸? ¸¸.•*¨*•??Christmas ??•*¨*•.¸¸? ¸¸.•*¨*•??...And A Happy New Year!??•*¨*•.¸¸? ¸¸.•*¨*•??...

Merry Christmas to my new WOT family. Here's hoping each of you have love and laughter this season.
Theresa Gray
423. Terez27
Also, @Wetlandernw - two things drove me to make the database: One, that all the interview quotes were not gathered in one place, nor were they organized so that plot-related quotes could easily found except on Thus Spake the Creator, which had not been updated since Winter's Heart (which is when a lot of the old fandom fell away). Even on Thus Spake the Creator, there was no indication WHERE or WHEN any of those quotes had come from, and it was extremely difficult to gauge which reports could be trusted and which ones were on the dodgy side. Which leads to two, I wanted every quote to be linked to the source, so that the original report could be seen, and so that we would know what sort of report it was, and when it was given (which is very important sometimes). So of course, quotes direct from RJ or Brandon (such as blogs, Twitter/Facebook, Questions of the Week, the Crossroads 'Glimmers' ebook interview, letters to fans, or interviews with audio/video backup) are the only really unassailable ones. For instance, the 2003 Budapest interview has audio backup that I have made available for download on the site, and I hope to go through and link to videos for the Q&A sessions that have video on YouTube (there are quite a few of those).
Alice Arneson
424. Wetlandernw
Terez, you're amazing. Thanks for the background; it makes the site that much more valuable (at least to me). I've always tried to give sources when I quote something, but in many cases the best I can do is reference the site where I found it and note whatever is available in terms of the validity of their sources. That's probably why my first go-to has always been RJ's blog, if he had anything to say about the subject at hand, whatever it is. Thanks again, and merry Christmas!
Barry T
425. blindillusion
Thanks for the thanks Terez. One always tries to do one's best.

To all, Merry Christmas.

And should you not be one to celebrate Christmas, may you have a wonderful time of year and hopefully you're getting today off work.

Many Blessings all.

426. Freelancer

You rock. Thank you for your compulsion, it is greatly appreciated. I would also like to say that you are exactly correct in your handling of the controversy which my "report" created, given Brandon's later answers and the refutation of another attendee. While I stand by my report, I agree that it cannot be considered the final word in light of contrary statements from the author, and you place the various pieces of information in the perfect context against one another. That your interpretation of the issue ends up paralleling my own in spite of that controversy, provides some measure of comfort to me.

Keep up the good work.




~ Merry Christmas ~

May the day be filled with blessings from His hand to yours; may you know peace and contentment this day, in His honor. On this day of giving and receiving gifts, He has offered the gift of eternal peace and contentment. On this day of giving and receiving gifts, let us not forget a gift for Him whose birth we honor. Jesus Christ is Lord.
427. Tenesmus
I tried to read all 3000+ posts, but... Holy Crap! that's a lot to read. I just finished TGS and haeve some general comments/theories:

Rand's meeting w/Fortunoa failed because He needs to cede Arad Doman to the Seanchan. Remember the 'finns answer... they said the west and the south must be as one, the north and the east must be as one, the two must be as one, to live you must die. To me this means the S&W must be under one ruler (Seanchan) and the N&E must be under one ruler (Rand) Once that happens, then the two rulers must be as one to fight TG. Once Rand cedes Arad Doman (the West) he will be able to make peace. This was foreshadowed nicely in TGS when Rand went to Ebu Dar and saw the peace and stability that the Seanchan provided and he compared that to the chaos in Arad Doman. It will be an easy for him to come to the same conclusion in TOM. Mat and Perrin will likely go to the next meeting. I am looking forward to a Mat POV with him acting as a mediator between Rand and Tuon...classic!

2. As to the "thing" that BS mentioned that was brought up in books 4-6 that hasn't been discussed all that much since... I believe it is "dying and living again." I haven't done a complete search but I remember it was brought up repeatedly in TSR; Moiraine telling Rand that he wasn't the creator and couldn't heal death, the 'finns telling Mat he had to die and live again, and the 'finns also telling Rand to live you must die. In TFOH we see a dead Birgette brought back to life and Mat brought back after being balified. In LOC we see the resurrected Forsaken for the first time (I think??), and (I think...sorry, I'm dusting off very old brain cells!) the discussion about Nynaeave Healing Death during the un-stilling of Logain. After LOC, I don't remember any more "dead" people coming back (ghosts don't count), or significant POV's dealing with reincarnation or healing death. I also think that the dying and living again will be key how Rand wins TG. He will go to fight the DO, get killed, be brought back by Nynaeave into a new (Logain's...rememeber Glory?) body and counterstrike an unsuspecting DO, who momentarily let his guard down because he just killed Rand...

Has anyone done the full search of topics from TSR/TFOH/LOC? I really think the "thing" is dying and living again. Critique, please!
428. Tenesmus
Wow! I just had another cool thought to tie into what I posted above... Didn't Rand and Nynaeave work together in TAR to defeat Rahvin? Perhaps after Rand is killed at TG, there will be a massive battle for the Dragon's "soul" in TAR. Slayer, Moggy, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeave, Rand, etc, all having an enormous battle in TAR as part of TG. Pretty awesome...
Theresa Gray
429. Terez27
@Tenesmus 427

As for your #1, Egwene also has not yet allied the White Tower with Rand, nor has Elayne officially done so, and the Borderlanders are up to who knows what. We have reason to believe that Elayne will probably publicly ally with him in this book, just because plotlines are pushing everyone toward Caemlyn, and as for Egwene and Rand, their confrontation has been prophesied, in Egwene's dreams, and in Elaida's Foretelling. So, you could say that Rand directly controls the lands in the south except for Murandy (Tear, Illian, Mayene, Ghealdan via Perrin, and Cairhien), but he has yet to tie himself to the north, starting with Andor. Andor is obviously the easiest (not counting what his women will put him through, as I'm sure he'll quite enjoy it despite his whining), but Tar Valon is a little more difficult, and the Borderlanders, supposedly his default allies, are being downright strange.

Now, Murandy may not seem all that important in the scheme of things, but Roedran has been doing some impressive things lately, and could cause some real trouble. There are theories that Demandred's hand can be seen here - Sammael's talk of 'proxies' in the south that we have been wondering about all this time - and even theories that Demandred is posing as Roedran (this one seems unlikely, but it fits RJ's criteria that we had not seen Demandred's alter ego on screen as of Crossroads of Twilight, and Brandon's criteria that we had not seen it as of Knife of Dreams). The thing is, RJ never confirmed that Demandred had one alter ego like many of the other Forsaken did (Lady Basine, Lord Brend, Gaebril, High Lord Samon, whatever Aes Sedai Mesaana is posing as in the Tower). So, it may be that Sammael was right, and that Demandred uses proxies and has his hand in a number of things. One of them might be Murandy. It is the only nation in east-south whose ruler is unaccounted for.

Demandred might also have a hand in the Borderland rulers and their army at Far Madding, like Graendal suspected. She knows that one of them has to be involved with the Borderlanders, as their actions suggest it, but she doesn't know which one of them it is, and since Demandred is the only Forsaken that mystifies her, she assigns it to Demandred. She might be right. Alternatively, it could be Moridin.

Then there is the Black Tower. Hardly to be ignored, it is a power equal to the White Tower. Rand controls it, at least nominally, and it's in Elayne's territory, right on the outskirts of Caemlyn itself. There is evidence that Darkfriend Asha'man take direct orders not only from Taim, but from Moridin and Demandred as well. And we know from several sources that Taim is preparing for war. Taim's 100 probably wouldn't stand a chance against Rand's 900. Perhaps he is planning on taking advantage of the half of the Black Tower that Rand left behind. Perhaps the 'training losses' were numbers to cover up for unsuccessful recruiting attempts (like Verin would have been, had she not joined). Perhaps they are a cover for the Asha'man that some think were seen at Moridin's fortress in the Blight. After all, it wasn't Moridin who came to Graendal with the gateway, but one of his 'guards'. And from what we saw of creatures in the southern Blight, it might well take a small army of channelers to guard that fortress from whatever is out there.

In any case, I think the Seanchan truce probably can't happen until Rand gets at least Andor and Tar Valon fully on his side. The Borderlanders and the Black Tower are a different story, though you would think he'd have to have the Borderlanders before he could make the truce as well.

Egwene can handle Mesaana for him, but he probably needs Egwene's help with the Black Tower, and likewise, she probably needs his help to rescue the captive Aes Sedai - those who went to bond Warders from the rebel camp on Rand's invitation. Elaida Foretold that Rand would face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger, and it will most likely be over this, and also the 51 that Logain and his men bonded with Compulsion (which is likely what Taim's men have done with those sent by the rebels, as they haven't returned). Egwene dreamed of Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of those women was a Seanchan. She also dreamed of a Seanchan woman helping her with some monumental task, and Brandon said that was not fulfilled metaphorically via the Seanchan attack on the Tower.

Another thing to consider - where did the Black Ajah take off to? The most logical place for them to have all gone was to the Black Tower. Perhaps we will see Mesaana make her last attempts to undermine the Tower so that Rand can not make use of it against Taim, but the Black Ajah has left the building.

It is important to remember that Mesaana and Demandred have been allied all along, and that their alliance formed in the period where Ishamael was still alive (specifically, it probably formed in The Great Hunt, during the four months Rand and Co. lost via the Portal Stone - Semirhage took over as Tuon's Truthspeaker probably no later than one month into those four). They have now lost Semirhage, and obviously she was a very important part of their plan. Mesaana has lost control of events in the Tower, but she managed to save a good portion of the Black Ajah. Who else does she have to turn to but Demandred? I find it hard to believe that she gave them orders to go out and about in the world doing things for the good of the Shadow. Mesaana isn't that organized.

I can see why Brandon has said that there might not be room for the Black Tower battle in this book, but you can bet that at the very least it will be led up to. In this book, I think we can look forward to: Ghenjei, the Caemlyn convergence of Lightfriends, Perrin meets Galad, Fain and maybe Slayer, Egwene vs. Rand, maybe some Black Ajah we haven't heard from since Moghedien sent them off in book 5, and probably the truce. Possibly the Borderlanders will be won over without much drama, as it's hard to see how they would fit in at the Black Tower. Possibly we will see Rand fake his death at the end of this book, or even die - it's definitely implied by Egwene's dreams that Logain will achieve Min's glory by taking over the Black Tower in Rand's absence, so Rand has to die or fake his death some time before the battle is won.

Also, read up on The Battle of Camlann. I find it hard to believe that this doesn't refer to the impending confrontation at the Black Tower, at least in some way. Maybe Fain will be involved as well.

There are also some theories that Demandred is gathering an army in Shara, and that he was the one manipulating Masema, that he was the one that sent the Shadowspawn attack at Algarin's manor, etc. (I think it was Fain.) Anyway, I'm hoping we will learn something about Demandred in this book.

As to your #2: there are several criteria for the detail from 4-6.

1. It was first introduced somewhere in books 4-6.

2. It has been mentioned in 'books and books' since.

3. It will 'save the day' in Towers of Midnight.

4. It has been previously overlooked - as in, Brandon believes the fans have not discussed it, and that we will slap ourselves in our collective forehead when we read about it, and wonder why we haven't been discussing it all along.

5. It is comparable to a certain minor detail from Mistborn that is a spoiler.

'To live, you must die' most definitely does not fit criteria #4, and it doesn't seem comparable at all to criteria #5.
430. batmanzed
Apologies if this has been mentioned, however, I haven't read all the nearly 4000 comments. I couldn't help but be reminded of Professor Snape when Verin confessed all to Egwene. I have no doubt that RJ conceived this idea before Ms Rowling, but unfortunately for me the fact that her conception saw print before TGS has left me with the phrase " Simpsons did it!" echoing in my brain :-(
Cynthia Ahmar
431. tenkuu
Terez27 @ 420

1. Actually, not really. Something that is obvious is either "easily seen, recognized, or understood" or "lacking in subtlety", whereas something that is confirmed is "made certain as to truth, accuracy, validity, availability" and "firmly established". To put it more plainly, "obvious" is subjective, and "confirmed" is objective. I love that you have your opinion on the subject, I really do. There's nothing more boring than a societal pushover. However, there is certainly nothing that is certain or firmly established about this particular topic. There are no facts here, only each person's interpretation of an intentionally vague answer given by Sanderson; the only fact is that there are none.

2. A better way would be to use other things to emphasize, such as stars, but point taken.

3. Thank you, and Merry Christmas to you too! And Happy New Year in case I don't check this board before January 1st. ^_^

Note: Sorry, forgot to post this yesterday, but I had clicked Preview and forgot to click Post.
Sean Banawnie
432. Seanie
Merry Christmas all! & happiness to all other holidays (esp Beltine) being celebrated....
bunker cleaning day...SUFFA!! ahhh , good damane....
James Jones
433. jamesedjones
430 batmanzed

Thankfully, that theme has been around a lot longer than even the Simpsons. :P
Theresa Gray
434. Terez27
@tenkuu - exactly, 'obvious' is subjective. It never pretended to be otherwise. Only your strange confusion between 'obvious' and 'confirmed' made it out to be otherwise.
Birgit F
435. birgit
happiness to all other holidays (esp Beltine) being celebrated....

Beltine is in spring, now it's Jul.
Rob Munnelly
436. RobMRobM
Happy holidays to all. Just got back from a short trip to NYC with my family and sister-in-law's family, and have to get back on a more normal schedule. Rob
John Massey
437. subwoofer
I see the distant grumbling is still going on. Pity.

On another front, in staying with my "throw anything out there plan and seeing what sticks then saying that we discussed that" idea... Does Rand truly know how much power he can draw in unaided? From Load of Choss, we see repeatedly that he estimates that he can deal with something like 3-6 AS at once. He sets his limits and stuff, but is that just ego or does he truly get that he and men in general, can do more and draw in more Power than women?

I say this because in later chapters of the book we are reading, Rand has nightmares of leaping though a hole with the Asha'men behind him, launching an attack on the White Tower, and being brought down because the women have been practicing for centuries whereas the men have had a few forced months of training.

Also, does Rand realize how much has been forgotten? Does Taim? How many weaves were left in the Age of Legends and have yet to be rediscovered. I think Rand knows more about channeling than any of the AS alive. Not including Forsaken.

Rob Munnelly
438. RobMRobM
Sub - in Load of Choss, clear he could deal with 3-6 with his fat man angreal. Unclear how many he can do without it. He could handle both Elayne and Eg in Stone of Tear, so should be able to do 3-4 anyway.

Agree Rand knows more about channelling than any current AS - note that weave to break and re-fix the crown in the section we just re-read. Tricky stuff, no doubt. Rob
Jack Diamond
439. violetdancer
I'm in shock at actually being able to log in! Still in LA and anytime anyone in my mom's huge apt. bldg. uses a microwave, I get kicked out of my pirated connection. I have been keep up with comments, but I swear I'm going to remove the lock on my connection once I get home. This has been so frustrating I need to pass along the gift to someone else.


I bet Rand knows much more now that he's accepted being one with LTT. And all that practice the AS have been doing for centuries is not what will be needed. All he needs is to share what he knows (you know, that minor cooperation thing we've been whining about for the last 12 books) with a few trusted individuals. It's probably that same thing that could foil him. AS knowledge plus what the Asha'man have learned of OP weaponry from those bonded pairs that are more than slightly dark.
John Massey
440. subwoofer
@Rob &VD, yes... seems to me that this is one of the things not talked about or at least something I have not clued into.

Eggy reflects on how Rand shook them around like they were kittens. And Eggy is really powerful in her own right. Same for Ny. Does Rand understand this concept. Does Taim know of this? The balance of course is that women can link. Men have er... pissing contests with each other instead.

And I think too much credence has been given to what AS know. Rand has begun to see AS as human and flawed but the White Tower is still held up as this bastion of knowledge and a repository for all that is or was in Channeling history. Has it been leaked out that current AS only know a fraction of what was done in the AoL? Do male channelers in general understand how ignorant most of the current female AS are in terms of weaves? Do males understand how weak modern female AS are? The culling of male channelers has also affected the overall Power levels of their female counterparts.

John Massey
441. subwoofer
Also, maybe in culling the men, the females have strengthened them. Weeding out the weak and letting only the strong survive. Inadvertently, female AS may have made the men that much more powerful.

442. alreadymadwithpowerlevels
Nope. It's not natural selection where the stronger ones were able to breed. The AS did cull the men, but only in the centers of politics and trade that they frequent. Coincidentally, their recruitment numbers from these areas where women can be encouraged to come to the White Tower are also down. Backwater flyspecks still apparently produce a good deal of latent talent, except the women might not know to come the White Tower. The overall Power levels still seem to be the same.
John Massey
443. subwoofer
@AMW... r u sure? Seems to me that there is a fair bit of excitement when discussing the three- Eggy, Ny and Elayne. Even Elaida was special because it was many years since any female has had as much ability in Saidar. Eggy and Ny came from the boonies, but Elayne is anything but backwater. I was thinking that the women were culling themselves. There seem to be many AS that are only a shadow of what was. The way the Forsaken sneer and comment on present day females speaks volumes. And I think it is not just all ego speaking.

As for the men, if even a hint of male channeling occurred, a team of AS were dispatched to wherever and "dealt" with the problem at hand. I think the key is the latent talent part. Maybe it did not manifest itself or it was not fostered so some young men died an early, unnatural death. I dunno... just seeing what sticks.

444. Mathornsounder
Where's the Horn of Valere?? i need to blow it for Tarmon Gai'don!!
grrr... seems some AS has hidden it!!
BTW, does anyone think thatt Taim might be Moridin??
in POD page 34, Moridin mentions that its difficult to lose when you play both sides of the board....
of course if that were so, Rand might have recognized him, unless he was wearing a TP woven disguise!!
what other reason could there have been fot LTT to go especially mas around him??

whoever has the HORN OF VALERE return it to me!!
John Massey
445. subwoofer
Maybe u should look in a box of Cracker Jacks. That is where I would start.

Tess Laird
446. thewindrose
sub, referring to your recent shenanigans with the kids, perhaps the horn may be found at the bottom of a bottle?
John Massey
447. subwoofer
C'mon- kids have a very plastic memory. It will pass. Maybe the horn will be found in a Kinder Surprise? Or maybe in a box of Cocoa Puffs, y'know, the stuff people go cuckoo over? ;)

448. Mathornsounder

i think that the seals may have been made by a link of a male and female AS, so that the weaves could be wielded by the man and they could meet at the centre and meld into one.

i didnt know about the part 2 of TGS spoilers!!
:: grumbles ::

ooh, i found the Horn, it was beneath my cloak!!

hmm...seems ive sent Vanin and Selucia on a fool's errand!!


Seem's like they will be spending quality time together!!
Sam Mickel
449. Samadai
Some crazy old lady named Ver? something tried to sell me ahorn this weekend. She kept claiming it was the Horn of Valere,but I argued with her. I told her it was locked up in the white tower for safe keeping. Some people I tell you will sell you anything.
450. Mathornsounder
People, some help here,
Rand has lost Callandor, the Bloody Sword that is not a flaming sword!!
and the Bloody Dragon Reborn is blaming me for losing it!!
I told him that i gave it to Olver, but Nooo, the dragon reborn doesnt believe me, thinks that i made a wager and lost Callandor on it!!

@449 Samadai, did the lady also have a crystal sword??
Tess Laird
451. thewindrose
Mathornsounder - You do know that your favorite AS - Cads had it and gave it over to some undisclosed friends of hers?

sub - I googled Kinder Surprise(mumbleneverheardofthismumble) and it led me to a Canadian website!
452. Mathornsounder
u'l b gr8 if sum1 humbles d followin people :
cadsuane (again)
the Aes sedai
Cadsuane (once more)
Faile (a little)
Lini (cmon lady respect perrin)
Romanda......and finally.....(Drumrolls and trumpets sounding)
Cadsuane (did i mention her??)
453. Mathornsounder
@451 thewindrose
Rand took it from her under the threat of balefire and gave it to me
I gave it to Olver as he could not come to TOG and was sad,
i think someone might have taken it from Olver,
sheep swallop sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!
the bloody dragon blames me!!


i think there might b a fight in AMOL during tarmon gai'don as foll:
Rand vs DO
Perrin vs Shaidar Haran(a wolfbrother fightin a neverborn)
Mat vs Moridin(on account of his medallion)
454. Mathornsounder

what does your name mean??

is it The rose of the wind, like manetheren's The rose of the sun??

Or is it The wind rose over the caralain grass??

All you Ashaman and Aes sedai, where are you??
the posting is so slow!!!

has the pattern thinned so.......has the useage of Balefire put the pattern under too much strain??

Hope you are all safe

:: feeling drowsy ::
its 3 am and i need some sleep....

good night people...sleep well and wake!
:: Hides the Horn of Valere ::
Jack Diamond
455. violetdancer
Wow! Twice in one day.

Reading Forkroot's last post on ACOS part 4 gave me a bizarre thought. The Creator made the Wheel and the Pattern and world and everyone in it, but then what? Is he just the ultimate lurker or:

What if WOT wasn't his best work? What if he looked around and instead of thinking that he did pretty good, he thought it sucked and decided to go back to bed and try again when he wasn't do hung over. Forgetting to set the alarm, he dozes off. Power surge during the night turns Creator's lair into a prison, and is he pissed when he wakes up. Can't get out. Can't have friends over. Can't get a pizza delivered. All he has is a tiny thin spot where he can hear occasional goings-on if he stands on a stool and listens through a cup.

After a few turnings of the Wheel, he's become the DO. When Lanfear drills through that thin spot, it's the DO's only window on the world, and the wind that opens every book is just him airing out accumulated farts (sorry, thewindrose ;D).

I know. Lack of comments has addled me.

One more thought is something I posted before. If Rand and Mordin do a body exchange, perhaps Moridin's mind in Rand's broken-down body have to kill the DO and take his place, sealing the prison from the inside, while Rand's mind in Moridin's body lives on with 3 wives.
John Massey
456. subwoofer
hmmm.... I think I read something like this in HMS Ulysses. To atone for past sins, a big Swede seals a hatch from the inside to prevent a ship from sinking.

I am still scratching my head about getting to Shayol Ghul. I do not think you can knock on the door and say "candy gram" and the DO will let you in. Nor do I think that it can be reached via conventional or even Travelling methods. Has to be something else. Something akin to the doorways to reach the 'Finn world.

John Massey
457. subwoofer
Kinder Surprise is actually European. It is sold all over the world with the exception of the United States. FDA does not allow it. Started in either Germany or Austria according to my wife. I dunno. She is the expert.

I told her somebody had not heard of Kinder and she promptly asked "what are they, from the States?" So there you have it.

Edit- she said "it's German". Kinder means "kids" in German.

Ed Rafferty
458. BigBoy57
@ 455 violetdancer - the question then is, who is in hell?

Sorry about that - can't resist a straight line. It must be the weather here - it's 30+ Celsius and 97% humidity AND my a/c has failed again after costing me $500+ less than a month ago to get fixed - ARGHHHH!
459. MatHornsounder
okay, i have said this before and i'll say it again :
Deamandred went over to the Dark side as he was not considered as good as LTT.
Also Sammy mentiones to Graendal that events in the south had his name all over it!!
This makes me think that Demo is controlling the Dragonsworn and manipulating Masema
(poor Aram)
In TGS Masema thinks of the Dragon arriving in his tent bathed in light,
All thinks point more and more towards Demandred
seems like he is following The DO command of Sowing Chaos to the letter.

Also, Let The Lord of Chaos rule, is this another name of the Dark one??
or does it just mean that all should sow Chaos??

And taim, someone tell Rand to balefire him....
i mean surely Egwene remembers the black sisters telling her that some of them were gonna free Taim!!

so why does'nt she suspect him to be a darkfriend and tell Rand about it??

And why did LTT go especially insane around Taim??

i dont agree with Taim being Moridin, but then LTT's ranting's are convincing me otherwise....

Probably Taim is just Taim, a ne dreadlord and the Creator is ROFL at us as we crack our heads on the question!!
461. MatHornsounder
People, why have all the discussions stopped??
what is up with you all!!

The Creator is getting angry at our lack of posts and progress!
Thomas Keith
462. insectoid
Patience, Mat... The Wheel weaves as it wills. (And if the Wheel wills that this thread not reach 572 (4000) comments before February, I won't be surprised.)

Nah, just kidding! ;)

::loads another movie in the bunker home theater::

We just need a little inspiration, or something. My "favorite quote from TGS" poll was a good idea, but it sort of got buried under the rambling, and the holidays, etc.

There's already a "WoT/Tordotcom Christmas carol parody" series going on at ACoS #4, so no point in doing that here...

(That link was totally chosen at random. Really;) )

However, my mother has finally finished the book, so maybe she'll join the discussion soon. She thought it had too happy of an ending, of all things!

Matt White
463. RedHandMat
Hello *bows*, long time lurker, first time poster. (don’t be to harsh lol)

First let me start by thanking BWS, with out you we would all still be seriously depressed at RJ’s death and subsequently the end to WoT with out our ending. Thanks BWS.

I have read all of the previous posts, yes, all of them. Although I will allow for the occasional scanning of a few flamin rants (thankfully there weren’t very many, credit Torie?) I can’t tell you how nice it is to see all of this discussion, not to mention the resident guru’s doling out answers in a (relatively) considerate manner.

Moving on, TGS. Wow what a book. Just a few quick comments on the actual book.

Mat – love you, didn’t feel off to me. More like he actually had to change a little cause he finally (8books later) marries tDoNM. Had a few actual lol moments with good ol Mat!
forTuona – I can tell she really misses (and needs) Mat around.
Verin – super super super sneakyness, loved it!
Faile – not so fail any more
Eggs – stole the show
Rand – so dark in there, glad you found the light (well sorta… hopefully)

Let me move on to commenting on the posts (yes all 3000+ at once!)

Demandred – love the idea that he is in Shara, im hopin this is where he really is at. Ready to lead scarry tattoo faced dreadlords into it. Gotta have some good dreadlords rdy to go or else its easy mode for Team Light in the LB, I don’t see many of the BA that escaped being all that pivotal as dreadlords, but we’ll RAFO.

Taim – how many forsaken are left… 5?… hmm I thought the chosen were the 13 most powerful channelers that the DO had… does that mean Taim is chosen now? Who else makes the list now? Personally I think that either Dem or Dashiva had (have) been teachin Taim some tricks before he even meets Rand. So that’s a foot already in the door, plus we know that Taim is pretty close to Rand in power level, certinally one of the top Ash’men.

Verin’s letters – She may have had different versions for Mat, but I think she also had others to deliver. As to what is in Mat’s letter im leaning towards the loc and secret passage into TV so the hornsounder can get his horn back. (more on this later). I’ve seen this discussed earlier but can one of the guru’s clear this up. What is the time table for Verin’s letter to Mat and her MoA with Eggs? Was there only 10 days in between? I saw 2-3 weeks in one post. Could Verin have convinced her self that in 10 days she would be dead/oaths removed, so that it was cool to betray some more BA secrets to Mat? Names of BA with Elayne perhaps?

LB – I love to see the Ishy/Rand dream scene. Really brings back some of those awesome scenes in tEoTW where Rand is havin some fire side chats with Ishy. The LB ‘wont be fought in the way he thinks(something like that) per Verin; makes me think of a T’A’R scene where the Wolf King is throwin down (can shadow spawn enter T’A’R? maybe just imagined/created in T’A’R?). I also see Rand and Team doin some heavy imagining. Imagine a world (T’A’R’ touches all worlds), a world where we never drilled into the Bore, a world where the DO was never released. I would say that in order to pull this off the would need a bunch of ppl in T’A’R in the flesh drawing on the OP to make it stick. This coupled with a real world battle going down in Andor (to many armies amassed over there) led by Rhuarc n Basher maybe Mat to.
This style of battle would totally parallel, (bring it back naow!) tEoTW and Rand fighting forsaken while the troops (mere mortals) fighting at the Gap.

Oh and I think that Rand is going to send the borderlanders back to the border and put them under Lan’s command (who else would the unanimously accept?) or something along those lines.

Finally I would like to pass along a few loony theories, maybe we really can hit that 4000 mark!

Elaida’s Palace – sounds like a great place for Eggs to send the Kin and any visiting channelers. Might be a good way to get ‘everyone a place in the tower’ something she discusses with Elayne.

‘Seanchan with a sword saving Eggs’ – I really like the idea of HoV info being in Verin’s letter. This way Mat can send Lewin Shipless (sp?) to the tower to get it while he goes and takes care of ToG. While Egeanin is doing this she can save Eggs from one of the last BK layin in wait somewhere on tower grounds.

Mat ToG – “giving up half the light of the world..” one of the things that we know about the snakes and foxes is that you have to be clear on any deals(details) that you make with them. Well… we all know how Mat is and how he can get carried away when he is on a roll… so I see it going down something like this… Mat is trying to get Moraine out.. he is rambelin along.. tryin to cheat and sayin “ha!.. I would give my left eye if we could all gtfo of here”. (I tend to see it this way since Rand seems to have gotten over his blindness (maybe he used those lasers you guys were talking about!))

Rhuidean - There are plenty of angreal and such still layin around. Moraine seemed to only care about the doorway and the bracelet. She must have seen this when she went through the rings. Is it possible that she could have seen more…? Maybe she saw a special angreal that Avi needs. So she set it in a place that Avi would most def see her second time around. We all know that Avi seems to have the peculiar gift to be able to sense what the various *angreal are capable of. I think I like this idea because we need Avi to have a MoA while she is in Rhuidean and for the fact that this would make Moraine even more omnipotent! An example for all AS to follow (not just cause she knocked off two forsaken)


One final note is it possible to get on the list of longest posters with just one post? Ha!
Matt White
464. RedHandMat
gah! i cant believe i forgot

Rand = Neo

RMP = Rogue Mage Priest (wow love anyone?)

oh and one final, final note. if anyone from the bunker wants go out for a night on the town, do some drinking, and possibly cut the heads off of a few parking meters... i am totally down. i got a nice callandor (Call! Andor! WTF!) sword that would do the trick.
465. alreadymadwithborderlands
Sadly, I doubt Rand will be initiating any discussions with the Borderlanders soon. They did the equivalent of asking him to bend over backwards for them. This after abandoning their posts. Rand's reaction to rain fire was probably extreme, but is understandable given the insult they handed out by sending Hurin rather than meeting him themselves and then asking him to come to them where he would be helpless. They treated him like an enemy that way. That does not remove the possibility of Nynaeve meeting with them as

Also, now that I think on it, Egwene's dream of a Seanchan woman with the sword helping her was probably symbolic and has now been fulfilled with the raid. Yes, the raid caused immense dammage to the White Tower but it also helped Egwene climb to the top rather than fall down/get executed. It was ordered by a woman, Tuon, and involved violence, as symbolized by the sword.
Tess Laird
466. thewindrose
I had some great idea's coming home from work last night, only to find that our connection down. And I was thinking about heading out for some kaf and WiFi, but the young'uns were not having any of that.

I did get the kinder part, but I give oath that google took me to this:)

thewindrose - I did in part create this from 'a wind rose' from the beginning of every book, but I also like to play with the many meanings of words(wind is one of the 5 powers)(roses are made to bloom with the power, and yes Manetheran a rose and a thorn) - as do a lot of you - I am looking at you violetdancer;)
Bonnie Andrews
467. misfortuona
Welcome fellow Mat lover. Now you really know how to do a wall of posts.

“Taim – how many forsaken are left… 5?… hmm I thought the chosen were the 13 most powerful channelers that the DO had… does that mean Taim is chosen now?” IIRC there were many more forsaken during the AoL, and only these 13 were trapped. I don’t think there is a quota or anything. If the DO chooses new FS, it’ll probably be on ‘merit’
Ahh. What is TV? I’m probably just dense, but I don’t get it.

Excellent possibility for TG in T’A’R . I can totally see this one, with a couple of FS taking potshots at the dreamers.
I’d really like to see Rand send the borderlanders to Lan. It is where they should be, and it just won’t feel right to me if he doesn’t. Unless RJ and BWS come up with something way better than I picture. They have so far.

Mat giving up half the light of the world? Maybe, but I tend to think of the HB as the go between the two side of the light. That is Tuon and Rand. I think he may find himself having to make a decision between the two before the end. Looney Theory definitely, but the romantic in me likes it.

Edit name. Thanks Tektonica.
John Massey
468. subwoofer
Whew! Had to make sure I was on the right thread. I try to learn from my mistakes. Had to drown my sorrows the last couple of days since my Giants §??? the bed the last game. The horror!

Got my name from my dog. Like Dr. Jones did. That's it.

RedHandMat- thanks for the post. It is nice to see a fresh perspective and new ideas. And somebody who cares enough to wail through so many posts. Especially the rambling ones. Some people were going for gold. I dunno. Welcome to the Bunker anyways:)

You are aware that I will take you up on your offer for drinking on the town. Just no "E" slipped into my drink. I don't want to wake up missing teeth and having a tiger in my bathroom;)

@Wind, yes, us Canadians have learned the power of squatting on certain key words. My company has paid big bucks to buy anything that will put us on top for Google. No surprise other Canadian companies have done the same. See? We will take over the world. Considering we are a tenth the population of the States, Canada kicks ass.

And you are still my friend, we'll go drinking with RHM (I think we may be besieged by some wow talk though- we'll muscle through if he buys the first five rounds).Heck, why not take Mat-the nutty-hornsounder too. Guy is typing like a champion at 0400, and wondering where the rest of us are. That will round us out and then we can really go on a full blown rampage. Write your name on your underwear in case things go sideways and we forget who you are.

Thanks for the link Birgit:) I will have my wife translate.

WoT related. It is interesting what AMWhegotpantsed said about Eggy and Fortuona- gee that name really grinds- helping out. I agree that ship in particular has sailed. Eggy would still be trapped in a cell dealing with Elaida the deluded as Amyrlin for a long time if things had not been forced to a head.

Personally I see the Warders getting their practice grounds back and the new "palace" becoming a parking lot. Waste of AS money and resources. The Tower is vastly empty from the dwindling numbers of AS recruits in the last few centuries. There will be more than enough room for all the new Kin etc. And don't forget with the Last Battle looming, death will abound and some people won't be making it back. There will be some empty beds.

Borderlanders. All of them are twit-sticks, considering. Of all the people that were running around causing a ruckus, why did it have to be the group of countries most needed when the big one happens on their collective doorsteps? Honestly. They don't have time for this crap. These guys are supposed to be the serious ones with duty and obligation and all that hairy chested drek that Lan spews on a regular basis. So far you have the Prophet who went bonkers, Taim who is a schmuck and the kings and queens of several countries taking their armies to do laps in no man's land. Wha?! Get thee back to your posts!

Rand should have hurled flaming bags of poo down on them to shame them. There are bigger fish to fry then what they are doing.

To all- good morning:)

Edited for word choice

Bonnie Andrews
469. misfortuona
Sub BaHAhaHAhahaHAHA, breathe... borderlanders... BAHAHAHA ... flaming bags of poo... oh no customers. Pretend I stappled my hand to the desk. Oh... oh... I'll right I'm okay now.
Thanks. chuckle
Jack Diamond
470. violetdancer
I'd like to pose a question to any and all.

How does Egwene know which AS were captured by the Seanchan and who ran off? Is she just assuming that the BSs took a powder to avoid the Oath Rod? Or were the BAs seen after the attack but before the oathing?

I don't have TGS with me to check.
471. MatHornsounder
@468 Sub, thanks for the offer, but i cant come as im in INDIA (of course i also do not drink..!!)

@463 RHM,
i dont think that Taim will become one of the forsaken, he's probably just a new dreadlord...
or he might (very low probability), just might be Moridin!

Also, someone might talk sense into the borderlanders and take them back to the Blightborder (might be nynaeve)
that is, unless they are controlled by Demandred

im kind of hopin for the 3 tave'ren to face SH, DO and that will be a great fight

Also, Verin might have left Mat some information regarding the Remaining Forsaken and some plan of theirs

Also, now that Rand is sane, i hope he'll go and provide Lan with some Ashaman and AS to defend Tarwin's Gap.
Perhaps Narishma will have some important role there......
472. MatHornsounder
Here's a question for all :
Can the Gholam be hurt by BALEFIRE??
John Massey
473. subwoofer
No problem, I can drink enough for the both of us, we will need a DD anyways. Don't let distance hold you back either, just open a Gateway. This could be a heck of a pub crawl.

I do not think Rand was totally loopy, he just had a mistaken impression of how to handle the lot he had been dealt. I think there was a country song about this. Rand had the mistaken impression that he had to be hard and unyielding. Similar to the mistake that Aridhol made. To beat the Shadow it felt it had to become harder than the Shadow. Look how that slid sideways and kept on going. As Min says Balance is everything.

474. alreadymadwithblackpurge
violetdancer @470
There were a few days between the attack and the BA purge. Immediately after the Seanchan raid, some of the AS performed a census and that allowed them to determine who were taken. During the purge, a second set of sisters disappeared and these are suspected of being BA.
475. MatHornsounder
aah...thank you for reminding me about Travelling!!
i'd thought that i was missing something....

so,what about gholam vs balefire??
is there anything except Cuendillar that Balefire cant destroy??
476. alreadymadwithalreadymad
Go kiss a goat!
blood and bloody flaming ashes!
Sheep swallop, sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!!
I love women!

Mordin is dead!!
(moridin means death, so this means Death is dead!!)

long time lurker , 1st time poster!!
John Massey
477. subwoofer
hmmmmmmmm, I am sure the resident gurus can wade in on this one. On the one hand you have a creature that cannot be touched by the Power. On the other, even the DO cannot undo the damage balefire does. Maybe in TGS it is clarified, like butter, but I am thinking that it is not as simple as there is the Gholam, let us channel at it. To quote Bill Murray, "it is a nimble little minx". No bones, can slip through a mouse hole, and can detect channeling at 50 paces. Back to putting salt on a squirrel's tail.

478. Freelancer
VioletDancer@470 & AMW@474

The key is Verin's list, which was around 99% accurate. With the census to which AMW referred, she had a very clear picture of which known Black sisters were no longer in the Tower, and reasonable guesses regarding numbers taken by Seanchan. As they began the purge, it was natural to suppose that anyone who disappeared, even those not on Verin's list, had to be suspect.

::looks around the bunker::

What have you people being doing in here? Why is Suffa huddled in the corner like a beaten dog with that half-blank, half-terrified look on her face? There are crumbs and chunks of partially eaten. . .I don't know what all over the floor, the place smells of stale oosquai (can that stuff go stale?) and other less pleasant, probably human aromas. The ceiling is soot-blotched in three places over there, as if - no, I'm not even going there. Dozens of cots, I sure hope those were meant for newcomers or occasional visitors, but I'm afraid to ask for details. And guacamole dip splattered on the big screen as if angrily thrown. . .


Now the picture is clear. Someone was in here watching the Panthers hand the Giants their pink slip for the year, and lost control. Tsk, tsk. Gotta take it better than that, eh?
479. MatHornsounder
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom,
Isam waited in the high passes,
The hunt is now begun; the shadow's hounds now course and kill.
One died and one lived, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds Blood,
Blood calls Blood,
Blood is, and Blood was, and Blood ever shall be

more clarifications are needed about this
480. MatHornsounder
people, some help with the balefire and gholam issue??

long time no see......
John Massey
481. subwoofer
@Free- youbetcha! It was embarrassing. Tough to eat with a paper bag over my head. The shame. The talent was there, but everybody was stuck in neutral, nobody put it in drive and laid the peddle down. At least on the Giant's side. I ranted enough on the Giant's wiki. Heck, half of New York was on the wiki giving Bill Sheridan what for. grrrrrrrrrr.

Don't even get me started on the Jets.

At least your Chargers have a good path to the promised land. Depending on the Colts or what the Patriots have to say. Rivers is really lighting it up though-eh?;)

::Blinks:: I read the rest of your post, and I'm tellin' ya, it was Insectoid! He's the one who got the buffet goin'. All sorts of hooligans clamor to the beat of that drum. Shout buffet and listen for the stampede. No wonder Suffa looks trampled.

John Massey
482. subwoofer
Incidentally, I am on vacation. I am not a big cold food eater for breakfast but I have a penchant for beer on my cereal(I am lactose intolerant.). Good way to battle hang overs and keeps me going.

That's the way we roll in Alberta. Moo. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what the ladies think of Mat too. If the bugger gets up for breakfast he probably has wine with his gruel.

483. Freelancer
Those are NOT my Chargers. I simply reside in this town. I am, and always will be, a Raiders fan, and you knew that. I acknowledge that until Al Davis meets his final reward, there is no hope for the team returning to the excellence they once defined, but I will not change colors for anyone. The Chargers will do as the Padres have done, get to the show and become so starry-eyed about the whole thing that they forget why they're there.

I did feel bad for Eli. Boy always tries, but too many defensive letdowns, too many penalties. Reminded me of the last time the Raiders got to the Bowl. Ran through the season like a hot scalpel through butter, Gannon the surgeon, then laid down for the Bucs in the only game that matters.

Oh, and try rice "milk" for your cereal, no milk proteins. And a good B-complex can help with that lactose issue.
John Massey
484. subwoofer
Rice milk? But what about the Rum? Le sigh about the Raiders. My AFC side is the Chiefs who went sideways after Marty left. Yes, Al Davis is much like Jerry Jones in his er, general manager skills, but he keeps on drafting like the village drunk. Big bucks for questionable talent, especially considering how high the Raiders get to pick in the Draft. A team that comes similar to mind is Washington. Much talent but back to the "whole being greater than the sum of its parts". As much as it pains me to say it, several gm's need to sit at the feet of Belichick and learn.

Good on you! It is a lonely road sometimes, being loyal.

I do hope that Rand finally feels that he has some people who are loyal to him. Maybe he will bring Hurin back into the fold.

485. alreadymadwithgholam
Aren't gholam immune to most weaves? I'm not sure on the accuracy of this but even if it weren't, aiming at and hitting it is a challenge in of itself entirely. Even the Forsaken view them with caution. Myself I believe the key is in Rand/LTT's statement. [i]Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway[i].
Bonnie Andrews
486. misfortuona
AMW @485
Re the gholam, so maybe those cool spinning gateways that LTT/Rand spun at the trollocs. Sounds like a weapon made specifically to use against the nasty little things.
John Massey
487. subwoofer
There are valid points here, but I do want to point out that it is Mat that will be dealing with the Gholam, not Rand, and the last I checked, weaving balefire or a Gateway is a moot point cause Mat has no power. The thing is, like the Gholam, Mat cannot be touched by weaves. But that does not mean that a house or an anvil-a la Looney Tunes- can't be dropped on his head and kill him just the same.

Reminds me of one of the guys on BCCT, it's not that the wind blows, it's what the wind blows. All the sit ups in the world can't save you if the wind blows a Volvo down on you.

Same for Mat or the Gholam. I don't think things need to be so tricky in dealing with the baddie here. Fancy schmancy power can't touch it, so what is wrong with setting a trap and killing it through conventional means? Mat has enough tactics stuffed in his head,- think Kirk vs Gorn in Star Trek. The end result will be the same, kinda, I don't think Mat will spare a life here.

Thomas Keith
488. insectoid
Sub @468: LOL

Free @478: See what happens when you leave for awhile? ;)

Sub @481: Yes indeed--my Chargers are kicking butt and taking names! Or something like that.

Hey! Don't blame me for the buffet! It was there the whole was I supposed to know they would act like Pavlov's dog? I'm just the unofficial bunker DJ;)

Free @483: Maybe so, but I have more optimism for the Chargers at this point than for the other (who are under new ownership and likely will stink up the place next season just as badly as last).

Bonnie Andrews
489. misfortuona
Is there only one gholam about? For some reason I thought there was more, but since it came from a stasis box, probably I'm just making things up again.
John Massey
490. subwoofer
hmmmmmmmm... @Insectoid, are you familiar with the word "wager"? And I tells ya, the word "buffet" has dangerous connotations to it. Similar results occur when the words "happy hour" crop up. Difference being, you are ringing a dinner triangle, not a bell.

As far as anyone knows, there is one Gholam. That is more than enough. Only six were made, but they deteriorate over time and the stasis box is what kept one alive. Who knows how many stasis boxes are out there, what were in them and how many survived the Breaking.

John Massey
491. subwoofer
'K, had to do some head scratching, as the durn site does not allow pics beyond 3M and I use a DSLR, but have loaded a couple of pics of the new bunker on my profile.


Tricia Irish
492. Tektonica
Hi WOT people::waves:: We seem to be rolling again....

MisFortuona@467: Did you mean Rand sending the Borderlanders to Lan?
I think you had a typo there....I'm pretty sure that's what you meant...makes sense. (Can we start a Mat club? Or should we do that on the Reread 4 page?)

Sub@468: You are a riot. So funny....your brain goes off in so many directions, it's hard to keep up! Thank the creator for Sub! Sorry about the Giants's been pretty quiet around here post game. (husband's a big fan.) RIP.

MHS@471: India, eh? I love technology! We've got The Netherlands, Canada, Australia, India, Germany, England, US.....who else? Out yourself! Very international here.

OK, it's 6pm east coast time and I haven't started dinner...just catching up on all the action here...GTG....hey, maybe we'll just hit the bunker buffet....oh no, oh ick.....OK, I'm in the kitchen.

BTW, it feels like the blight here in SoFla tonight...into the 30's! I know, we are lame, but we are not prepared for that here! Get to make a fire in our nearly useless fireplace!
Alice Arneson
493. Wetlandernw
463. RedHandMat @463 - Welcome! And congratulations!! on making it through all 3890 posts...

Random comments on your comments: I'm with you on Verin's letters; I think we'll find out in TofM that she delivered several others on her way to Tar Valon. Rand and Perrin, for starters. AFAWK she didn't see Rand, but she may have left it with someone else to be delivered. She may not have known Perrin would be in Caemlyn, but there's a good chance she'd have prepared for the possibility, since he's ta'veren too. Elayne? Nynaeve? Plenty of reason to give them info. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to be... well... surprised by some of the other people who get critical info from her. As you say, I think Verin was quite sure that within the 10 days, she would either have removed the oaths or be dead. I wonder if Laras got a letter?

Nothing to add to your TAR speculation, other than that I'm convinced TAR will be critical to the end game.

I like the idea of sending the borderlanders to Lan; it's contingent on them either not being under control of a Forsaken, or being freed from that control. Haven't decided on my particular theory of that situation; I may just RAFO that.

Looney theories... has anyone pointed out lately that Lews Therin and Looney Theory have the same initials? It should be significant.

Elaida's palace as a home/base for other (non-AS) channelers. Not bad!

"Leilwin Shipless" getting the horn... I doubt she could. But you never know. My personal theory (just because I like it, not because there's any proof; if there were actual evidence it would be a real opinion, not just theory) is that if the "Seanchan with a Sword" is a specific person, it's Tylee Khirgan. Not sure what I think about the idea that it's a general representation of the Seanchan or more than one person. (Can't quite figure out why, in Egwene's dream, the face wavers but the sword is solid. I know it will be significant, but no idea why. "Her face wavered, never settling clearly..." seems like good supporting evidence that it represents more than one person. OTOH, "...but the sword seemed as solid as the stone" seems to indicate something very specific.)

AMW... @ 465 - I think BWS said that the Seanchan with a Sword dream has NOT been fulfilled yet. I'll look it up and quote or link it if no one else beats me to it.

misfortuona @ 467 - TV = Tar Valon, where the Horn is (presumably) hidden.

subwoofer: "hairy chested drek" LOL!!! And the rest... LOL!!!!!!

MatHornsounder @several - Gholam are supposed to be immune to channeling. That's was their purpose in "life", and the reason there were only 6 made. (Great weapons, but you have to be careful about something that you can't defend against...) I don't know for absolute sure, but I'm pretty confident even balefire doesn't work on them. At least OP balefire. The TP might work, though. Maybe someone can bribe Moridin to take this one out.
Mark Rocks
494. Denali
Can one of the gurus point me to a complete listing of plot threads? I have been searching and have not found a list of WoT plot threads. I have visited the Thirteenth Depository, FAQs, and other sites. While there are many theories and related topics; none have a good listing of all the plot lines.

My son and I had roughed out 7 major plot lines and many additional minor plot lines. Some of the major plot lines include: Mat / Tuon; Mat / Aludra; Rand & his harem (is that PC?); Rand and Seanchan; yadda, yadda, yadda…

Thank all who have posted their theories, thoughts, especially to those that have created and maintained all the data relating to the series.
Alice Arneson
495. Wetlandernw
Hey, I just had a great Looney Theory, and I do mean Looney. With a capital LOON. Maybe the gholam tries to follow Mat & co. to the TofG, and everything goes sideways. Moiraine did say only three could go. Maybe if a fourth tries to sneak in, it gets dumped... elsewhere.
Bonnie Andrews
496. misfortuona
Wet @ 493
Thanks, of course. I was apparently suffering from too much Christmas. Yeah, yeah that's it. :P
I wonder exactly how the TofG opens? I know they are just supposed to make the sign at it, but that sounds like one of the 'angrel(I always confuse these) that anyone can use.
If it's a gateway in, than the Gholam can't follow. Still I expect the little blighter to show up there, unless they finish him off in Caemlyn.
Alice Arneson
497. Wetlandernw
Here you go, AMW... From the 14 November signing in Dallas:
Q: Have the visions and other such prophecies about Egwene and the Seanchan (such as the running one and the one with the sword) have they been fulfilled yet?
A: No, none of those have been fulfilled other than the attack on the White Tower. She still has more to go.
I assume by "the attack on the White Tower" he means this dream:
A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.
which Egwene knows means the Seanchan will attack the White Tower, an attack that will "shake the Aes Sedai to their core and threaten the Tower itself". (CofT, Chapter 30)

Furthermore, there's this one:
She had dreamed of Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.
which looks to me like something yet to come, probably in TofM. Tower, tower, who's got a tower....

Hey, all, has a great compilation of Q&A and quotes, all divided up by character and/or theme right here. It's well worth your time to check out, even if only for the browsing.
Alice Arneson
498. Wetlandernw
MHS on the gholam... for more info, check this out if you haven't seen it before.

Denali @494 - Can't really point you to a plot-line summary just now; I've never gone looking. Seems like the kind of thing theoryland or 13th depository would have, though. They each seem to have a couple of obsessive-compulsives trying to organize things, so they should be good. Of course, the problem is finding it in amidst everything else they have available. If I come across anything, I'll post it here. Or maybe someone else who already knows one will pop it in. Of course, if you find something, you have to live with their version of what constitutes a significant plot line....
John Massey
499. subwoofer
Was going to suggest the OG Dragonmount for such tidbits. Delve away in the forums.

I multitask like a heathen in the real world, so I am used to thinking along many planes at the same time. Sorry, my wife is the same way with keeping up with me. Its all good though, keeps our relationship lively. Yeah, that's it. Anyways, I gotta be me:)

Soooo... according to Wet, Eggy is still going to have dealings with the Seanchan. Well, out of sheer speculation, I think the end result will be that Eggy gets leashed again. Has to happen. RJ has been practically flaunting it in front of us. How vehement Eggy is about being leashed, the possibility of the Seanchan learning Travelling, the repeated occasions where Eggy is on high and is brought low. I just get a feeling that her time is not done as far as suffering and being brought low. Eggy united a Tower with her words, maybe she can bring the Seanchan around to see the slavery for what it is the same way.

John Massey
500. subwoofer

Sorry folks, like I said, I gotta be me:D

Anywho, at this lofty perch of 5 Hunny, I would like to thank all for getting me here:)

As for consolidated plot lines, lemme know what is out there too. As I have said in the past, what really brought me fear in some of these books, was that as I read, more plots would be spun out. The problem was, all these things are flying at me in each book and for some books- you know who you are- there is very little resolution and even more threads. So many main characters, so many things that have to get resolved or dropped before the Last Battle. Heck, look at our 4000 plus post here to get an idea of all that needs to be resolved.

501. thepupxpert
Well if the gholam is immune to the OP then I think Matt's fox head will play a big part in killing it, since we know it can be burned by it. I can imagine a big scene where it finally corners Matt or captures Tuon and Matt comes to the rescue in true Matt-style and uses the fox head to wrap around the gholam's neck and it all blows up and he loses the fox head and can never be immune from the OP again, but he saves Tuon.
Thomas Keith
502. insectoid
Sub @500: We all saw it coming;) Only 72 to go to reach 4000!

Actually, that would be 70, now. :)

Mark Rocks
503. Denali
Thanks for the feedback.

Whilst discussing TGS, my son and I began to talk about various characters and their plots & sub-plots. After a while we realized we were missing many plot lines. We began searching for a good list… failed. I, like many here, do not have bandwidth to create and post this information. I was hoping I had simply missed the plot listings during my searches. I will admit, it is an odd approach to determine (guess) the direction of the last two books.

I will continue to search for plot threads. If I find a good plot line summary / listing, I will share the information. It will be good to review the open plot threads and guess where the next two books will go and what they will cover.
Tess Laird
504. thewindrose
subwoofer - You claimed 400 on the re-read and 500 here on the same day!
It's the little things;)

And thank goodness, we're back online at home:)

Edit for winky face;)
505. Hopper's Mum
Hey mofojar @ 12 - I totally agree with you. I finished TGS last night (got it for Christmas) and I would give it 9.5/10. I found a number of proof reading errors esp Gareth Bryne spelled Byrne, and I felt Brandon didn't quite get Nyn's intensity right, and not quite right for Mat either. However the book is amazing, and amazingly satisfying after all the fluffing around of some of the others (I still haven't read CoT fully - couldn't stand it!) So kudos to Brandon and the team for making a wonderful book.
Tricia Irish
506. Tektonica
Sub@499 & 500!!

A semi-looney theory....

Going with your theory that Eggs gets brought down again, and is leashed once more by the Seanchan.......

Perhaps before her fall she and Rand have their little tete a tete, he "feels her anger", and leaves in a huff with nothing resolved with the WT.

Then, through Mat, perhaps, Rand learns that Tuon has Eggy, and he rides to her rescue. Egwene is chagrined, sees his power and hears his arguments with Tuon for consolidation before TG, and a deal is brokered for:
1. the return of the captive AS
2. stopping the leashing of marath'damane
3. ceding of territory to the Seanchan
4. and a truce is forged......

Then Rand has the WT, and the Seanchan with him. Thoughts?
507. alreadymadwithspinning
misfortuona @486
Errr.. Deathgates don't spin. Although they move toward their targets. Not sure if they actually home in on their target or simply move along a predefined path. Anyway "spinning" is simply the term Rand uses for the act of creating a weave with Saidin. The weave itself he sometimes calls a web, as in spinning a (spider's)web. It is from LTT's memories and appears to have been the term used in the AoL, as it also crops up here and there among the male Forsaken's POV's.
John Massey
508. subwoofer
@Tech- Well! There are many things to touch on so forgive me if I ramble(yeah, I know, I normally do) or miss something.

To start, I guess what has to be determined is if Rand gets bawled out by Eggy before or after he rides to her rescue. If it is before, then more power to Rand for feeling the pull of duty and once again reprising his role as in the Great Hunt. If he gets bawled out after the fact, he may have second thoughts about coming to Eggy's rescue.

Rand and Mat- Rand sent Mat to perform a duty, to see Elayne safe and also help out Eggy. One of the prime reason's Mat marched off without his army was to make sure Eggy had a back door out. Rand still has a mistaken sense of Eggy's maturity, her strength of character, her standing with the Tower and that Eggy needs someone else to fight her battles. After all, Eggy was Randless when she unified the Tower. Even if Elaida was not swept away, the wheels were in motion for another coupe.

I do see serious criteria for much of the points you made, especially the ceding of territory. Rand was already leaning along those lines to begin with, stability matters more and more to him.

I do not see the captured M'adamed being returned. Many of them will be brainwashed. Instead I see a calling for the Kin or maybe strong Sisters to guide the Seanchan. Remember, even if given the choice, many of the already leashed would balk at the chance of freedom. This needs to be fostered and as Tuon's meetings with Mistress Anan(sp?) a gradual change of the mindset must occur. Rand can broker the deal for this after Eggy lays the foundation with her Ghandi like attitude.

I think the big bomb for the Seanchan will be the discovery that the ones holding the leash can channel too. They have the spark. This means Fortuona has the spark. The Empress of the Seanchan can channel. Boom, it was over, just like that. Getting Tuon to realize this is Eggy's task.

Mat is what will bring Rand to Tuon again. Eggy is the icing as he and Mat discover her captivity.

Edited because I am a donkey and gave the shout out to the wrong person. waves

Sam Mickel
509. Samadai
I have been doing a re-read of all the sections with Verin in them.

There is a part in The Dragon Reborn where the supergirls are cleaning pots in the kitchen. Verin comes in and asks if they have found anything yet. Elayne bangs her head on a pot, Egwene is freaked out and Nynaeve says nothing but grease Aes Sedai. Knowing what we know about Verin now. What the heck was that about?
510. MatHornsounder
Indeed, egwene needs to show a little respect to the DR
she maybe the Amyrlin, but he was the Greatest Tamyrlin ever!
Also, her thinking that she can handle the situation better than Rand is a delusion!!
Some of the women (especially AS) are quite annoying!

Try to help Rand, rather than to gude him!

I also think that ForTuona might face some Misfortune and die.......
John Massey
511. subwoofer
@MHS- well, I'll just throw it out there, but if BwS is gonna do some outrigger novels of Mat's adventures with Tuon over on the other side of the ocean, it might help if Tuon was alive.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

512. MatHornsounder
Hmm...ok, i'd forgotten about that

But is it a sure thing that BWS is gonna write the outrigger novels??

Did RJ leave enough notes for that??
513. MatHornsounder
(Tuon might die and live again?!)


But someone needs to bring Egs down by a notch!
i think that's agreed

What about Callandor slicing the DO?? is it possible?
John Massey
514. subwoofer
Well, I'm not Harriet, you'll have to ask her, but I do believe that there is something out there. Also, BwS enjoys writing WoT. It is a great honor to be the Creator of such a great series. And let's face it, it is a cash cow for TOR, so I think it is a win/win situation for everyone involved. We get to read the books, BwS gets to write them, TOR lets it ride.

Tricia Irish
515. Tektonica

Obviously, I wasn't being near as detailed and in depth as you are in 508, just an outline, really. Thanks for filling in the spaces, you got my brain back in gear! Here are some of my thoughts on the Egs/Rand confab....

I know there have been differing "interpretations" of the meaning of "feels her anger", but I'm taking it pretty literally. I don't think Egs has a clue about what Rand has really been up to, ie: how strong he is, cleansing saidan, the balls he has in the air, his various armies, why the bondings happened, his descent in to hardness and hopefully, his recovery from it. (I'm hoping for more of a calm/insightful/powerful Rand, personally.) They haven't seen each other in many books, er, a long time.

Of course, he doesn't know about her strength of character either,/MOA in the white tower raid/being Amrylin/general growth yet you say.

This could be a very incredible scene when they get together! Perhaps the best way for them to get to know one another again, would be to see each other in action, rather than a chat.

If Egs does get recaptured and works her magic from within, with Tuon coming to understand the implications of her "spark", and if Egs is present when Mat gets Rand back to negociating with Tuon in a more diplomatic and powerful way, they could learn alot about each other from observation. (What a sentence!)

As for her anger....she might be POed that Rand pulls her away from Tuon, partially for the good she was doing with her, or because she wanted that victory for herself, or perhaps for some part of the bargain Rand forges.

As for the release of collared women.....I can't imagine that most of the AS wouldn't want to be released! Perhaps Tuon will give them a choice? It seems that most of the long time leashed Seanchan channelers would be horrified to be uncollared, as they are totally brainwashed. But the collaring of new women HAS to stop. I think Tuon will finally get that, whether through Egwene or Mistress Anan or the Kin.

And what do you think about the slavery issue? Could Rand stand for that? He seems pretty much a champion of Everyman. Even if he cedes territory to the Seanchan empire, with the native rulers in place, I can't imagine him allowing slavery.

Whew! Sorry for the Wall-o-Text......
John Massey
516. subwoofer
Woot! 07:21 my time and everyone is up and back in the game!

ahem where was I?

Ahhh yes, I was actually wondering how Eggy will get an info dump about the bonding- the 50/50. I don't know if Rand is the one to provide this or if Eggy get's her hands on Alvirin or another BA and there is an evil gloating reveal or something.

Beyond that, I do not know if the initial Amrylin/Dragon Reborn meeting will be so smooth. Just from past encounters, Egwene always sniffs and tries to take Rand down a peg. She also pities Rand and has seen him struggle with LTT and may think that Rand is just barely holding onto sanity. There will be many preconceived notions coming into the first encounter. Sometimes when people meet after time has passed and many watershed moments have occurred, they fall back into their old roles even though nothing is the same. Rand has to relearn Egwene and Egwene Rand as neither is the same person that left the Two Rivers.

John Massey
517. subwoofer
Slavery, well that is a big can o worms. As far as Rand is concerned, I think it is safe to say that on most captivity and bondage issues, Rand is all about freedom. After being caged in a box and then Semi slapping the collar on him and the Min incident, I do not think Rand would be gentle at all with the Seanchan about collared women.

To me, that is where Egwene is needed the most. Eggy was collared and has very strong feelings about that. I do feel that her growth of character will give her the skills to deal with this far better than Rand. Eggy has the temperament from dealing with Elaida's ignorance to better help Tuon. It may just start with dispelling notions of what ta'veren can do, they are not just superstition, and maybe some enculturation will happen that would foster positive bonds and help broker peace.

John Massey
518. subwoofer
The spark thing is a big bombshell that will send ripples through the Empire. I am not sure how to handle this one. It may be a case where ripping the bandage off fast is best, waiting out the initial shock and then dealing with the repercussions after.

IMHO, the fabric of the Seanchan Empire is that people who can touch the Source need to be controlled. I think this came from Hawkwing himself who laid seige to TV. No surprise that his ancestors have picked up that torch mistakenly. I think that discovery will shatter the Empire and maybe that is where the Mat tale come into play where he and Tuon rebuild what was.

Sorry folks- would of been one epic post so I broke it up to be more manageable.

Tess Laird
519. thewindrose
Just a quick comment on the possible outrigger books. RJ had planned on writing possibly 3 about the adventures of Mat and Tuon, time line about ten years after TG. (So that would be a very good indication that they both survive TG:))
At this moment I cannot find the quote quickly enough(at work), but BWS has likened writing more books in this world after he has finished the 3 he has agreed to do for sure as having the One Ring from LotR. It is hard to give up, but at some point necessary. Any continuation will of course be up to Harriet, and she does seem to agree with BWS on this point(the One Ring analogy).
So, I guess we shall see, but I wouldn't be surprised if Harriet would want to stop after TG. A finish to the series that helps everyone to move "Onward".
John Massey
520. subwoofer
Well... there was the Silmarillion. But it is moot. Let's see how this series ends before the contemplation of any outrigger novels. Just the likelihood of Tuon and Mat kicking around after the Last Battle seem pretty high. The again, all plans fall by the wayside after the first punch is thrown.

Don't forget CREAM though. It has powerful influence in making decisions.

Jay Dauro
521. J.Dauro
Some random thoughts from last night.

We know that Rand's 3 can sense his emotions (they have seen the hardening ball.) So can they sense the change at the end of tGS? Can they feel his laugh?

We know that all of the Asha'man could sense Rand's use of the CK to cleanse the source. Can they sense the buildup at the end of tGS, when Rand destroys the CK?

So does the group with Cadsuane know that Rand has had some encounter, and that he has laughed? If so,will Cadsuane feel she has succeeded? She supposedly still has to teach something to the Asha'man, and probably still something to Rand.

Will Rand return to the Sun Palace? He needs to see Tam and talk again.


Why did Moridin mention that you have to balefire a Chosen to prevent the DO from bringing them back. It could be a slip, but it got me to thinking. We know there is a link between Moridin and Rand. Perhaps if Rand attempts to balefire Moridin they both go poof, and the DO wins? And this is Moridin's objective.

Subwoofer @514
Brandon has said enough to make me think there are sufficient notes to write the sequels. But he has also said that at the current time he leans toward not writing them, and he has said this to Harriet. But he has also said that if she asks him to write them, he will do it. This probably won't be resolved until after aMoL. (yes, I want to read them, but I can understand BWS's viewpoint too.)
Barry T
522. blindillusion
'Lo All =)

Just wanted to step in for a moment to say I don't know how much commenting I'll be doing over the next few days/weeks/months(?).

I'll be in the 'Sip this weekend, just as I have for the past 2. 4 day weekends are just awesome, don' y' think? And 3 in a ROW. Awesome Tripled is quite Awesomer that Single Awesome.

That Big Honking Day I mentioned a few weeks ago is fast approaching. That will be...err...Awesome? I’m just awaiting the Day. I’ll be sure to let you guys know though. Pictures might be necessary.

And it appears I’ll be leaving things well in hand. Seems Wetlandernw is exploring the wonders of Terez’s Compilation. **Grumble** Seems there goes my claim to fame. *Sigh* Oh well, perhaps I can still, every once in a while at least, beat her to punch and quote something, if not inspired, then perhaps at least amusing. **Wicked Grin**

Hope everyone has a Wonderful New Year.

I’ll try to comment at least a few more times before I head out tomorrow morning. I’m sure everyone has missed my crafty words. But first I have to read through all I've missed over the past two weeks. *Sigh* =)
Tricia Irish
523. Tektonica

I think you are absolutely right that Egwene and Rand's reunion will be testy, to say the least! She always thought him a woolhead and stubborn, and has no clue what all he has been up to. Likewise for him. They are not the same people, as you say.

I do hope they come to respect each other before TG. They would make an incredible team! Join the two towers, after the BT is cleaned up, the most powerful AS and the!

Wonder where/how the reunion/info dump will come from?
Jack Diamond
524. violetdancer
Tek and Sub re: slavery of damane

Ah, slavery! my favorite subject (at least the US in 1860-65 version). I can read and read and read and still not understand it. You both seem to agree that most of the Seanchan damane do not want freedom, especially those collared for many years. So then what's up with Alivia? She's taken to freedom so easily and seeks revenge on her captors. Knowing how RJ treats exceptions, does anyone have any insight on this?
Tricia Irish
525. Tektonica

Good to hear from you! Sorry you have 3 weeks in a row duty:(

Do let us know about the "big day". Very exciting!

Tricia Irish
526. Tektonica

Being a very independent female, and having never been a slave/captive, I can only respond from the knot in the pit of my stomach when the thought of slavery rears it's very ugly head.

My guess is that the core of one's being can be hidden out of self-preservation, but not snuffed out in some people. Alivia is one of them. Seems her anger has kept her soul alive for hundreds of years, and she's about to get her chance at retribution. Go Alivia! (Just my speculation.)
Jack Diamond
527. violetdancer
Don't panic, Tek. Collaring will be a moot point if the OP is snuffed. There'll be no need to keep anyone leashed.
John Massey
528. subwoofer
I will have to agree that Alivia is an exception- and IIRC she was also in one of Min's visions. Things will happen there.

Beyond that, I also remember the initial knee jerk reactions from other damane. When Rand did his er... snow rescue thing with Avi, and had an opportunity to free some of the leashed, they cringed and cried outright because they did not want such freedom. It went against everything they were taught. Same for Mat. I think he had an chance to free some damane and Mat was not treated with the expected gratitude. It will take something interesting to overcome the ingrained culture of a people. Not going to go into real world parallels, but they do abound.

Who knows, this is all just conjecture, at the end of the day Rand could do some fancy channeling and have an emancipation proclamation or something and will be greeted with cheers. On the other hand, Rand could say "behold" and be greeted with the same reaction the Aiel gave him when he told them the Aiel follow the Way of the Leaf. It is hard to say what a person's character will reveal.

James Jones
529. jamesedjones
520 subwoofer

What does the Commercial Real Estate Association of Manetheren have to do with making decisions?

Or were you referencing the Caemlyn Risk Evaluation and Assessment Model?

Am confused. :( But then I'm ruled by my surroungings and the lack of money therin. ;)
John Massey
530. subwoofer
@Blind- death- duty- mountain. You know, the hairy chested stuff.

We'll be here for you at the end of the day:)

Take care and hope you don't go stir crazy.

Ahhh... I see JEJ has proven what prolonged exposure to laughing gas can do;)

Bonnie Andrews
531. misfortuona
AMW @507 thanks for the clarification, of course it turns out my idea wouldn’t work anyway, since the Gholam’s following Mat.

Various re the Seanchan problem. I’m not sure exactly the difference between de’covale (sp?) and sojin (sp?), but it seems to me that our heros might run into similar problems with trying to free many of the Seanchan slaves. Don’t most of the sojin, at any rate, consider themselves privileged to be in the position that they hold?
Certainly I can see them accepting emancipation over time, but they come across to me as similar to servants, like Lini, who would bite off your head if you suggested that she should stop serving House Trakand. Thoughts?

As to Alivia? Hmm? I guess I'm with Tektonica about her strength. Though if she has a part to play in TG, then maybe there is something else that has acted to keep that independant streak alive in her.
Ron Garrison
532. Man-0-Manetheran
Hi all! Long time, no post... Good to see you all here!

Re. Egwene and Rand
Don't forget that they grew up expecting to marry and how hard it was for both of them to tell the other that wasn't what they wanted. So, clearly there is a core of respect there in the background.

Re. Moridin and Rand balefire "slip"
We know that the Foresaken are all terribly jealous of each other and completely selfish. If Rand takes the others permanently out of the pattern, so much the better for Moridin.

CREAM? Don't know that one.

Samadai @ 509
Somewhere on one of these many boards, someone speculated that the Horn was left with Laras, and she is hiding it.

MatHornsounder @ 510:
Amyrlin - Tamyrlin. Good one! I never made that connection before.

OK, enuf for this post...
533. alreadymadwithseanchans
violetdancer @524
The only thing I can think of that sets Alivia apart is her Forsaken class strength. Which would suck, as it would validate the White Tower reliance on strength in the One Power to determine hierarchy.

As for collaring, we know Rand's stand on it. Not negotiable. For most of TGS he was resigned to letting the Seanchan have their way with the Westlands as he turned his attention to the Last Battle. Now he's had his epiphany, I think we're about to see the big Seanchan smackdown. Rand had obviously been preparing for it before abandoning his plan in TGS. He has had his Asha'man scout most of Arad Doman, Tarabon, Altara and Amadicia. He has had the Illianers and Tairens massing their troops. All he really needs to do is give the go signal.
Mark Rocks
534. Denali
J.Dauro @521 / Subwoofer @514+ / thewindrose @519

BwS, TOR, et al will also be completing the Prequels that RJ began in addition to the post-series books.


My opinion on the pending Seanchan vs AS battle is that Eg will force the issue. With her hatred of the collar and the fresh pain of the Seanchan attack she will press the AS to attack the Seanchan to rescue the AS captives. This will present the opportunity for Mat / Rand to rescue Eg... again (said in my best Forest Gump voice).

During the AS-Seanchan battle a good turnabout would be for Tuan and many of the lead trainers to be collared. The prisoner exchange that Mat / Rand negotiate would establish the agreed lands, end slavery (the da'covale), and the fundamental changes in how channeler’s are treated in Seanchan. After all, it would be hard for the Seanchan accept that the Empress and the lead trainers were collared with the fact that the collar only works on damane. All sul’dam are damane. Ouch, paradigm shifts hurt. This would also allow a fundamental change in the Tuan / Mat relationship… more equal?

How the acutal Eg / Mat / Rand / Tuan interchange happens, it must be quick and to the point. This is due to the fact that there are so many pending events required to get the series to TG that there is insufficient space to have a protracted battle.

Well, just my rambling thoughts on a Wednesday morning…
535. MatHornsounder
Moridin must have told Rand to use Balefire as it strains and rips the fabric of creation.

Hence, loads of Balefire = Freedom for DO

i dont think that Moridin is the kind of guy who would sacrifice himself for the DO, if he was such a loyal guy, he would have never left Original AOL Team Light!!

Also, Egs and co know now that Saidin is Cleansed, ( though they may not believe it )

Also, Cads has taught Rand what he needed to learn (laughter and tears!)
I think this is what she needs to teach the Ashaman, and also reduce their arrogance.

Hmm...i was hoping that Cads would die in TGS, but teaching all the laughter and tears stuff to all the Ashaman will be punishment enough foe he!!

Now here's what i would love : a Rand vs Gawyn good old fashioned combat, where Rand knocks Gawyn senseless!!

On that Happy note : Cry Cads

:: Throws the Cake at her ::
536. Freelancer

According to Brandon, Cadsuane has only completed part of the lesson. Add to that, Min's vision included all of the Asha'man as well.
Mark Rocks
537. Denali
It is interesting that no one cares much about wolfboy and his pet bird in much of the wrap-up theories and discussions. Guess we are all suffering from post traumatic WH—CoT syndrome or something.

As for finding a good site addressing plot threads… the folks over at Encyclopedia WoT ( have done an excellent job. The summaries are complete with a nice graphic of the books major plot threads. A good addition would be a master summary of open threads.
Ron Garrison
538. Man-0-Manetheran
More thoughts on Moridin & Rand - italics are mine:

{Shadar Logoth - Sammael has blasted at Rand who is hanging by his fingertips in a hole}
A hand grabbed his right wrist. "You are a fool," a man's deep voice said. "Count yourself lucky I don't care to see you die today." The hand began drawing him up. "Are you going to help?" the voice demanded. "I don't intend to carry you on my shoulders, or kill Sammael for you."
Rand had never seen him before. At least he was not one of the Forsaken; those faces he knew. He thought he did, anyway. "Who are you?" he demanded.
Still heaving, the man barked a laugh. "Just say I'm a wanderer passing though. Do you really want to talk now?"
Twisting to look over his shoulder, he saw Mashadar...Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward...Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.
Head ringing like a struck gong. Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. Everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands.
Unsteadily, he got to his feet and offered a hand. "I think we best move quickly. What happened there?" The other man pushed himself up with a grimace at Rand's proffered hand..."I don't know what happened," he snarled. "Run, if you want to live."
"You probably should leave here now, but if you intend to say and kill Sammael, you had better try thinking like him. You have shown you can."
Suddenly he realized that he had not felt saidin when the man made balefire, either. Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again.

So, IMHO the dizziness that Rand continues to experience is clearly not from the taint but from the touching of his saidin balefire with Moridin's True Power balefire.

What I noticed most from this re-read is the interaction between the two men - respectful enemies. Not only do they have a lot of history together, but now they have experienced something else unique to them. Moridin's distaste for Sammael clearly shows that he has more respect for Rand than Sammael, and he's happy to give Rand the clue needed to defeat him.

To me, the Moridin-Rand connection is one of the most interesting in all the books. Don't forget how the story began in tEotW: They were the first two characters to speak. They might be the last.
539. MatHornsounder

I agree, im just sayin that Cads is done with Rand
she has yet to begin teaching the BT Ashaman

I think the Ashaman currently with Rand may have learnt laughter n all by bonding with AS

BTW, add me on facebook,

and how do i register here?
Ron Garrison
540. Man-0-Manetheran
To register, go to the top of the page and look for the little black box on the right. And welcome!
541. MatHornsounder
good one

Ive been thinkin along those lines for some time now....

also, i think that in the end, if Rand gets a way to kill, destroy, crush, devastate, eat the DO

(err... forget the eat part)

Then, Moridin might come over to the light and help Rand defeat the DO

Also, BWS said that it wasnt the last that we heard of LTT's voice...
so perhaps that might be the three becoming one scenario...

with elayne,avi and Rand

Moridin using the TP
Rand With Saidin and Callandor
Elayne and Avi with Saidar
John Massey
542. subwoofer
@MatHS, as er...M-O-M said look on the top right corner of the top of the page- "My world" it says login or join.

Let 'er rip.

Like Neo, are you going to take the red pill or the blue one? Remember, you can never go back;)

John Massey
544. subwoofer
@Denali- that is brilliant. Using the A'dam as a test for channelers would really squash a lot of opposition. That would be irrefutable evidence. If the person has no spark, then they can slap the one who collared them upside the head. If they have a spark then muahahahaha, rude awakening time in Seanchanville. Mat would still need his medallion though. Keep him on even footing with his "Precious".

@MoM, I agree with you, the sickness that Rand feels has nothing to do with the taint. There may be some residual feeling from the overlapping wounds in his side, but I think you are onto something. It is very similar to the visions whenever any of the Trio talks about another or when Rand "thinks" on Moridin. They can see each other's experiences. Makes going to the loo interesting.

Free cares about Perrin. I think the guy is not half bad, right now he is just at low ebb for me. Can't find fault with his devotion or loyalty though. Perrin is likable, just not glamorous, a solid character, but hard to discuss without er... Faile.

MasterAlThor could clarify for me- c'mon tell the peps about CREAM...

Why didn't you take the blue one?;)

Pritesh Patil
545. MatHornsounder
@ all

does anyone have any idea about what may happen to the 3 Taveren if they think of each other at the same time??
something like travelling and they all meet up in TAR??

Im hopin that Perrin becomes the Wolf King and all, but ELYAS leads the Wolves into the Last Hunt!

the guy deserves it ( i mean he's been a wolfbrother for sometime now)

The only way that Perrin might lead the Wolves is if Elyas that would be SAD!!
Bonnie Andrews
546. misfortuona
IIRC, The wolf king is part of Seanchan prophesy and it speaks not only of his eyes, but of the axe as well. Elyas may be deserving of the title, but it was never meant for him.

I think CREAM in this instance refers to Cash Rules Everything Around Me. Yeah I had to look it up too.

Edit for wrong shout out.
Pritesh Patil
547. MatHornsounder
I agree that Perrin will be the Wolf King, but yet i think this might mean death for Elyas, as the wolves respect Long Tooth more than Young Bull!

remember in TEOTW, when Burn leaves Elyas...there might be something in that!

I hope Elyas lives!!!!!

Also, does anyone think that the food spoilage is because the Dragon is in Dark moods??
in the Karaethon cycle, it says
Let the dragon sing to the Land that green things will grow.

Now that Rand's well, i think the land might benifit a lot.

Also, i hope that now he does something to help ARAD DOMAN.
( would'nt like to see a good nation go over to the seanchan!)

Also, Perrin might find the song, as in one of her dreams, Egs see's trees flower and bloom around him.

I think Raen and Ila will have some role to play yet
Pritesh Patil
548. MatHornsounder
Let's try understanding the prophecies of the Dragon, if we can :

And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand or abide…

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before, and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,
born of a maiden wed to no man.

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

When the winds of Tarmon Gai’don scour the earth,
he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.

Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live, and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

Five ride forth, and four return.
Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,
bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.
The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf.

With his coming are the dread fires born again.
The hills burn, and the land turns sere.
The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle.
The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.
Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth.
There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.
The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.
Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.
What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.
Order burns to clear his path.

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,
for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.
Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.
He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.
Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,
and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.
The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,
and he shall wear a crown of swords.

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,
and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,
amid the wailings of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,
for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,
when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,
that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,
and all that is, all that was,
and all that will be shall be shall balance on the point of a sword,
while the winds of the Shadow grow.

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

He shall bind the nine moons to serve him.

The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.

He shall break the nations, and shatter the world.

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,
washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.

Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.
when the Fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.
Pritesh Patil
549. MatHornsounder
LTT was prince of morning and Lord of Dawn

Twice dawns the day when he shall die
once for mourning and once for Birth

this surely refers to Rand dying and living again!!

And, it must have some relation to LTT,

Hmm...seems we'll just have to RAFO

BTW, what is
IIRC and
Pritesh Patil
550. MatHornsounder
Is'nt the horn of Valere inside the WT room of angreal??

::actually i just wanted to claim comment no 550::
James Jones
551. jamesedjones
549 MHS

IIRC=If I Recall Correctly
IMHO=In My Humble/Honest Opinion

You can google most of the acronyms we use. ENEMA might not work, though.
Thomas Keith
552. insectoid
Hokey Smoke! It's looking like we'll reach 572/4000 before the New Year after all!

Sub @520: Er... by CREAM do you mean the band, or is this an acronym, like Callandor-Rand-Elayne-Avi-Min?

Blind @522: Congrats, pictures will be welcome!

JEJ @529: LOL

Misfortuona @546: Oh. I liked my acronym better;)

MatHorn @549: IIRC = If I Recall/Remember Correctly, IMHO = In My Honest/Humble Opinion. If you have any doubts, just ask Wiktionary.

EDIT: Ah, drat, JEJ beat me to it. ;)

Pritesh Patil
553. MatHornsounder
@552 insect,
actually were on 552, not 572

were we goin to reach 4000 on 552 or 572??
you've confused me
James Jones
554. jamesedjones
553 MHS

You've got to add the prior Spoiler posts for tGS.

Edit: Added link
Pritesh Patil
555. MatHornsounder
I got that JDJ, what i meant was did we have to add 552 or 572 to the earlier nos??
i dont know on which no the earlier posts ended.


feeling sleepy
Thomas Keith
556. insectoid
MatHorn @555: 572. The number of comments on TGS OST 1 was 3428.

James Jones
557. jamesedjones
555 MHS

No idea. This is a post for fans of Sci-Fi and Fantasy. It's very doubtful you'll find someone who can do that higher-level multi-variable calculus here.

Edit: We're just going to have to trust Insectoid on this one. He sounds smart.
Bonnie Andrews
558. misfortuona
Insectoid @ 552
I liked yours better too. :)
John Massey
559. subwoofer
Mis@546 got it. At the end of the day TOR is a business, and in times such at these, the bottom line matters. If TOR can make some money(and there is nothing wrong with that at all)writing more to the WoT series, then why not? Harriet says yes, BwS says yes, all is good and everyone gets paid. CREAM.

Pritesh Patil
560. MatHornsounder
(ITS 0230)
any ideas about LTT being prince of dawn and lord of morning being related to Rand's dyin and livin again??
about dawn coming twica as writtrn in KC??


well Goodnight

"Sleep well and Wake"
Tricia Irish
561. Tektonica
This seems kind of out of left field to post here, but it does relate to the upcoming foray to the ToG in the next book, kinda...
Really, it's just interesting background on the wide world of reading that informs RJ's writing.

In my unscientific research of old epics and ancient literature, I stumbled across what is said to be the very first novel, written in Japan during the Heien period, c. 917-1016 by a noble lady of the court, Murasaki Shikibu, titled: The Tale of Genji.

The general theme of the book is the nature of the relationship between the genders and the effort to establish a real relationship between men and women, as opposed to a superficial one.

It bears only tangential relationship to our Tower of Ghenjei, but RJ, being an avid student of things historical, may have drawn several ideas for the character of Thom Merrilyn from this story. (And perhaps some for Mat.)

Genji was a handsome son of the emperor who was talented in the arts of poetry, music and painting. His mother was a favorite of the emperor, but was lower born. As such, Genji was a threat to the other wives and their sons. The emperor made Genji a “commoner”, to remove the possibility of succession, and thus the threat to his life. He remained at court, became adept at political intrigue, was quite a hit with the ladies, had several wives, and in the end fathered and grandfathered two different emperors.

Genji is not a warrior by nature, but is artistic and tends to the needs of women. As he ages, there is a general darkening of the mood in the book, as he has known both love, and sorrow at its loss.

The Good in the book equates with the realization of the sorrow of human existence, and The Bad equates with blindness or indifference to human sentiments. Genji has many flaws, but he is sensitive and knows love and sorrow.

Thom Merrilyn is a commoner, and talented in the arts of poetry and music, being a Bard. He loved a queen, was sent away and lost his love, is a master player of daes de'mar, and may (probably not, but hey?) have fathered a Queen. He is not a warrior, per se, loves women and is loved in return. His arc has certainly darkened and/or lessened as the books have moved along. He should get his MOA in the Tower of Ghenjei and find love again, with Moraine this time. He has his flaws, but is sensitive and thus, works for Team Light.

FYI....sorry for the Wall-O-Text....
562. fosmott
ok, I have read most of the posts, but this is the first time i have commented....

On the Rand/Moridin seems to me that the DO deals mainly with souls and not so much with physical sides. Now, if Rand and Moridin are starting to merge into one(soul), maybe the DO can't tell them(Rand's soul and Moridin's soul)apart. This way he(the DO)isn't really giving Rand permission to use the TP, he just didn't know that it was Rand, and not Moridin, that was using the TP.....
Bonnie Andrews
563. misfortuona
Tektonica @561
What a great post. I wouldn't doubt that RJ had indeed read that book, and good for you that you found it.
Chalk another one up for the gurus.
Is this book available online? And is it in English?
Jack Diamond
564. violetdancer

And there was that story of Thom's about trying to rescue a woman who didn't need rescuing. From a butcher? Thom had a coach and driver and was treated like a lord, or something to that effect. When we got to that part in the re-read, I recall thinking Thom might have had a higher place in the Cairhenian court, where he learned the Game of Houses so well and may have met Moiraine before she went to the WT.
Alice Arneson
565. Wetlandernw
Random comments...

Tuon already knows that she could learn to channel. As far as she's concerned, being able to learn is not a problem as long as she chooses not to. (And I'm sure she'd see others the same way.) It's only those who can't help it, or those who choose to learn, who must be leashed lest they cut loose on the world with all that power. It's terribly inconsistent, of course, because with the a'dam, the suldam has all that power and there's nothing to stop her from cutting loose. But traditions are often inconsistent, not to say illogical. Usually there's some basis for it if you dig deep enough, but it doesn't take more than a couple of generations for reason to be buried in tradition, and then something is done just because that's the way it's done. Ah well.

Back to Tuon... I don't think mere conversation, with Egwene or Rand or anyone else, is going to change her mind. The only thing I can imagine making her see it differently is to have someone put an a'dam on her so she can find out what it's really like. So for all of you who are convinced that Egwene will be collared again, try this on for size (as it were). Egwene is collared and brought to Tuon, where she finally figures out how to take the bloody thing off - and while everyone is in shock, she snaps the thing on to Tuon... I wonder if forkroot would make it possible to take off your own a'dam.

Hey, just for giggles, maybe when Tuon gets used to the idea, she'll realize what a ducky thing it would be to do a Warder bond with Mat...

More in a few minutes.
Thomas Keith
566. insectoid
JEJ @557: Smart, maybe, but I know very little about calculus. Never took it.

Nearly there...

Alice Arneson
567. Wetlandernw
J.Dauro @521 - I look forward (I hope!) to the scenes where each of Rand's 3 feel that change in his emotional state. I don't know how they could NOT feel the change; IIRC, most of what you get through the bond (especially over distance) is emotion.

I just re-read that last scene, and Rand is pretty sure that every male channeler on the continent knows that something is happening. Chances are they don't know what, though; they can just feel the immense use of saidin. I doubt Cadsuane will find out anything about it from the Asha'man, except perhaps the fact that something huge happened; they wouldn't even know for sure that Rand was involved. OTOH, if she's got the brains to be watching Min, she certainly has the opportunity to know something of what happens. Given the intensity of the event, I'd be surprised if Min doesn't go from super-tense and incredibly fearful (for Rand) to bursting out laughing herself. And crying.

*sigh* I'm betting (just so I don't get too hopeful) that we'll get that scene (and the other two) in a retrospective. Possibly also Rand seeing Tam again. I'd love to have them on-screen, though...

About Moridin, I don't see him being quite that self-sacrificing. He's never been characterized as selfless, or even all that fond of the DO. He's in it for himself, so getting balefired can't be much of a priority...

And your understanding of BWS's comments on the outriggers/prequels matches mine; as much as we all would love it, we probably won't see them. I'm pretty sure from what I've read, though, that certainly no one else will write them. IF IF IF Harriet decides they should be written, only Brandon will be allowed to do so. But he's got his own worlds and ideas to write about, too, and as fun as it must be to finish WoT, he doesn't really want to spend the rest of his career writing someone else's stories.

blindillusion @522 - We will miss you!! I haven't gotten anywhere near familiar enough with Terez's data. And once school starts again, I won't have time to be on here off and on all day like I am this week. However, one has one's priorities... :) And your upcoming BIG DAY will have all sorts of impact on life. Hoping all goes well!! And definitely, pictures please!!! Looking forward to hearing good news. And hoping you get some sleep sometime within two weeks after the big event.
Ron Garrison
568. Man-0-Manetheran
@565 Wetlandernw
I think it might take something as dramatic as collaring to change the Empress's mind about a'dam. However, I pity the fool who ever tries to put a collar on Egwene again!
Jay Dauro
569. J.Dauro
Wetlandernw @567

I do hope we get to see the reactions. I hope Rand goes back to the Sun Palace (I say that because I hate having to look up how to spell Cairhien), but would not be surprised to see him wander for a while. Maybe have to see Aviendha come find him.

I don't know. Moridin seemed to accept the fact that there may be no kingdoms to rule when the DO wins.

If someone has a link to show the sequels have been given a green light, I would love to hear it.
Alice Arneson
570. Wetlandernw
Finally got through all the comments! Last installment for now:

Denali @ 534 - Re: completing the prequels & outriggers, can you give a source for your statement? I'd love to see it.

About the Seanchan/Aes Sedai battle, don't forget Egwene's dream about the Seanchan collaring a long line of AS and forcing them to throw lightning at the White Tower. She hoped it was only a nightmare, but I'm not so sure. I think the Seanchan will do another attack, but the Tower will be much better prepared.

MatHornsounder @535 - I've said it before and I'll say it again... I personally don't think the DO wants the Pattern destroyed just yet, since he is bound outside the Pattern. Not until he's free. And if the DO wanted lots of balefire just to rip up the Pattern, why mess with trying to manipulate Rand into doing it? The Forsaken could just go throw balefire around all over the place and do it themselves, if that was the objective. I think the idea that Moridin would love to have Rand destroy more of the other Forsaken has more textual support, although I'm not entirely sure that's 100% either.

same @550 - We don't know for sure where the Horn is; Siuan hid it someplace "only she and Verin would know". I like the idea of Laras, but then it wouldn't be "only Siuan and Verin", would it?
Thomas Keith
571. insectoid
Wet @570: Seems to me that Siuan's gonna have to find it, then!

Okay Sub, you're up!

(I'm being generous, here...)

Ron Garrison
572. Man-0-Manetheran
@550 and 570
From the Glossary to aCoS we do know that the Horn is in the White Tower. We just don't know where in the Tower.
Thomas Keith
573. insectoid
Ohh, snap! ;) Congrats got the 4000th comment on the combined TGS Spoiler Thread!

EDIT: Oops...I forgot! ::confetti::

Alice Arneson
574. Wetlandernw
Well, yes, it's in the White Tower. Not easy for Siuan to have stashed it much of anywhere else, given that she was Amyrlin at the time. But where in the Tower... If all else fails, we can start speculating on that one. I expect (hope?) we'll find out more in TofM, on the theory that part of what's in Mat's letter is the exact location of the Horn and how to get it out.

The point of my earlier comment was that as far as we know, it is NOT in the usual *angreal storerooms, but somewhere much more secret. Or at least very (Verin?) well disguised.
Conchobhar Ó Laoghaire
575. TuathaDeDanann
First timer here. Been enjoying the comments etal. Has anybody theorized yet that given that the captured Aes Sedai damane are still bound to the oaths made on the white rod,perhaps a fourth oath could be added by all who can channel, binding them against embracing the source whilst collared? This would completely negate the use of the collar as , if it worked, any damane who had sworn such an oath on the oath rod would be renderred useless.
Just a thought
Ron Garrison
576. Man-0-Manetheran
Thanks for catching that, insectoid! I had no idea. Time for birgit to update the statistics! LOL.
John Massey
577. subwoofer
@Insectoid- Thank you:) I am deeply honored that you would wait for me, but whoever is up, is up. Sometimes I don't jump the line. I knew we were close, but I had other obligations. Confetti indeed- ::Pow! Zip!BANG:: Roman candle time.

As far as oaths and rods, IIRC there was a bit muttered by a sul'dam about the newly captured being useless because they are still bound by the three oaths not allowing them to use the Power as a weapon unless directly threatened etc. I think that the oaths still hold. The Stone still stands, the dogs still bark...

@Tek, that was fascinating! I will google it and figure it out. I am sure I can lay my hands on it somehow. Good work, digging for that:)

I don't think finding the Horn is the end of the world. Eggy is the rightful Amrylin, back on the Seat and Siuan still advises her so I would not be surprised at all if Siuan just gives Egwene the Horn. Then of course, when Rand comes to Eggy, she uses it as a bargaining chip to brow beat Rand and cuss him out for letting the Hornsounder wonder all over hell's half acre without a "minder"- er... specifically, some AS to advise Mat and keep him out of trouble.

And I do agree that Egwene is the one who is going to teach all the Seanchan a lesson in humility and ethics. Slavery will be abolished soon. I absolutely seeing her giving Tuon what-for should any kind of leashing occur. May make Tuon a little more um... cooperative, when Mat wonders along at the worst possible moment with his drek eating grin and snappy comebacks. Oh, to be a fly on that wall. Or I could just read the book. Good times!

Jay Dauro
578. J.Dauro
TuathaDeDanann @575

IIRC, the number of oaths applied using the Binder (Oath Rod) affects the lifespan of the AS. The more oaths, the shorter the life. The oaths are why the AS live shorter lives than the Kin. So do the AS want to put another Oath on and have an even shorter life?

However, it is an interesting thought. Maybe we have all of the captured damane swear an oath to not channel when collared. Then we send them back.
John Massey
579. subwoofer
That does bring up an interesting point- the damane are not bound by any oaths beyond the collar, this also applies to the sul'dam. This means we have Alivia, striding around completely unfettered and with a chip on her shoulder. Frightens me. One of the most powerful female channelers on the loose. Ny is not bound by the rod yet, but IMHO she has a similar view as Eggy and lives by the Oaths. Alivia may not have even heard of the Oath Rod or the three Oaths. This could go sideways in a hurry.
An intriguing woman. Much too old to become a novice, unfortunately; oh, yes, very unfortunate. She drinks in whatever she's taught. I believe she may know almost every way there is to destroy something with the Power, but she knows almost nothing else." - Verin, Winter's Heart

And she is supposed to "help" Rand die.


Matt White
580. RedHandMat
im guessing you all missed my cool hand luke reference.. its ok.. its an old movie.

moving on.

BWS's quotes on the seanchan saving Eggs tells us that it is pretty reasonable to think that the WT will be attacked again.

I thinking that there will prolly be another battle, and during this battle Rand may have to step in and make both sides back down

Since we know Rand still has to 'face the Amyrlin's anger..'

It might be that Eggs gets mad at Rand because of the compromise that Rand makes with Tuon. ( who ever wants to be leashed stays leashed)

more on this later..
Tricia Irish
581. Tektonica

I just searched Wikipedia and they have a pretty lengthy entry on the Tale of Genji with translations listed at the end. Glad you enjoyed it. I am just more amazed every day at the depth of RJ's research and knowledge....little bits from tales the world over, from all eras. So rich.


Forgot about that story of Thom and the woman who wouldn't leave her abusive husband. Thom in the carriage, etc. Ummmm.....I wonder what his backstory really is....that would be interesting and I bet we never really get it all. Darn.
Bonnie Andrews
582. misfortuona
Thanks, I'll do a little 'extra' work at work tomorow and check the sites for it.
Maybe we'll get lucky and one of the prequels that we may or may not get, might be about Gleeman Thom.
I'm done for the day all. I leave you with my my obscure (non-WOT reltated) thought, and wish you a great night.

How many of you are hunting smurfetts tomorow?
Bobby Stubbs
583. Valan
Tek @ 561

I've heard of the Japanese Genji conecection with the ToG before, but never got the Thom connection, which is pure awesomesauce. In fact, I nominate your post for Most MoA post on the new spoiler thead!

Have been enjoying the comments immensely peoples. Keep it up.

I like the idea of the Seanchan attacking the White Tower again and Rand stepping in and totally wrecking on sh*t with his new LTT abilities. Then, of course, Egwene would be pissed off because he stole her flair. Yes, he would definately know the Amyrlin's anger then ;)
584. fosmott
Can someone help me out?

What does MOA stand for?
Thomas Keith
585. insectoid
fosmott @584: MOA = Made of Awesome.

Pritesh Patil
587. MatHornsounder
Someone mentioned Egs using the Horn as a bargaining chip with ol' Rand ,
dont think its gonna happen,

i mean, i can easily imagine Mat strutting in here and telling Egs, "I'll wager my Medallion for your stole that I find the Horn without your help"

Remember, he is the luckiest guy ever and his luck works well for randomness.....
Getting the Horn wont be a big deal for him

The DO might want Rand to destroy the pattern using Balefire as the Forsaken themselves are afraid to wield it!!

M-O-M @572
Rats i missed it!!
588. fosmott
insectoid @ 585

thank you very much...just couldn't make the connection for some reason

me @ 562

anyone have thoughts on this? I'm really curious to see what the gurus have to say.
589. Inspirationism
Hello everyone,

Loved the book - and I am not just saying that because I needed my fix.
First time on the board so if I do anything untoward, well, I apologize ahead of time. Not completely finished with the impossibly long spoiler forum read - much less a re-read with the actual book - but I think BS did a great job. Although - as others have said elsewhere - the contractions were a little too much...but anyway,

am I the only who doubts the existence of the Dark One in general?

I am beginning to see Randland in a more mundane view - beyond the Ogier and Trollocs in any case.

Will report back later once I have finished the forum read through and add my inflated two cents.

BTW, this is more directed at BS, please tell me Jordan left information on Shara and the Isle of Madmen - its getting to me that so much is still left unknown to us!
Barry T
590. blindillusion
Well, just one more.


Just my opinion, but I don't think the souls of Moirdin and Rand are coming together in any way. It appears to be more of a physical occurance.

But then, I suppose I'm bias as it's one of my Pet Speculations that Rand has to find a way to destroy Moridin's soul to completely defeat the Dark One.

~ I would also like to thank everyone for the well wishes. I'll be sure to post a picture or two.

Seems the little one is a little impatient though. Sadly, I suppose I won't make it for the birth, as I'm in SC and my wife is in the 'Sip.

I'll be leaving here soon though. I'll be seeing you guys as time permits. Keep up the good works everyone.

edit: your'd when I should have you'd. Opps. Later ya'll.
Birgit F
591. birgit
for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

Is this about Rand's connection with Moridin?

The Japanese Text of Genji monogatari is available online here. Seidensticker's translation is here.
Matt White
592. RedHandMat
"I'll wager my Medallion for your stole that I find the Horn without your help"

Now this is more like Mat's true voice lol. Is he gonna use his luck here or does he already know cause the Sneaky One told him in his letter.
593. alreadymadwithsgrant
I don't get this fascination with getting Egs to teach the Seanchan anything. Girl still has a major knee-jerk reaction to Seanchan and collaring. If she gets collared again, she'll not take it with the same grace she had dealing with Elaida, she'll simply lose it. If there will be further Seanchan attacks on the White Tower, I hope to the Creator it's not until after TG. Frankly, I've had enough of the travails and trials of Eg the supergirl. Or any supergirl, for that matter.
Of course, I'm probably biased. My own pet theory has Rand handing out the Big Seanchan Smackdown. Though mind you with the White Tower purged and reunified, Eg, like Elayne, is now in prime position for TG. Having her deal with the Seanchan before TG is like taking two steps backward.
Matt White
594. RedHandMat
I’m seeing a great deal of similarity between Eggs and Rand

Rand's craziness, ie LTT (weather he is real or not real). --- When Eggs thinks about being leashed again she comes close to losing it, like trying to cage a wild animal.

Both have had their “omg im in a box get me the f** out” time, although Rand’s was probably worse/ more physically traumatic.

They are, (have become?) both great leaders.

The more that I think on it the more I see Egg’s as part of the “3 becoming one” scenario. With either Moraine or Alvia as the 3rd.
Bonnie Andrews
595. misfortuona
Re Egwene and the Seanchan.
Really I expect a pretty rude awakening for the poor suldam who tries to put on the collar. (Bets on my namesake anyone?) With her new found awsomeness and ability to embrace pain and whatever comes, I don't see it being a problem for her to simply take off that damned collar no matter what they do to her.
I mean what's a little pain and nausea compared to what she's been through?
Of course I'd also like to see Rand, or better still Rand and Mat, come to her rescue (again).
James Jones
596. jamesedjones
595 Misfortuona

Let's not forget, it's not just a torture device. Nyn could channel the weaves through Moggy no matter what. It's a forced link that allows manipulation of physical sensations. When Tuon collared Joline for a bit I was strongly reminded of Semi playing with Cabriana and her warder. If they slap a collar on Egwene, she might go nuts for a little while, but the pointless torture followed by the physical 'rewards' of doing what the suldam wants would break her. Especially if it is a suldam like Lady Luck.

Edit: corrected spelling of suldam
Tess Laird
597. thewindrose
My 2 cents on a collared Egwene:
She has survived real life beatings, Elaida's last one knocked her unconscious and before she went under she was still standing and dealing with it calmly.
I can see this happening - that she does temporarily get collared. She will have a moment of panic, however this will be her last hurdle to complete MOA. She will calm down, clearly look at the situation and remove the a'dam. (The a'dam is a mental prison, and I feel that Egwene will see this and enable herself to undo the a'dam.)

This will be another huge revelation for the Seanchen. Not only can the suldams learn to channel, but the a'dam is no longer completely reliable. Those who have a strong enough presence, (Sorila would be and example of someone with this who can hardly channel), a strong enough belief in themselves, cannot be collared.
598. alreadymadwithcollars
The a'dam isn't so much about presence as being warded/programmed to react to certain patterns of thought. Thinking about suicide? Zap. Thinking about freeing oneself? Zap. Belief in oneself will only carry one so far against the dehumanizing process that is a suldam's training and possibly help with the recovery afterwards. But for as long as you are wearing it. There's no escape short of being released. Cads tested it and failed. Ultimately the mind will compensate by starting to make accomodations. This is where the breaking down process starts. As one starts trading away concession after concession in an effort to lighten the burden. Let them call you this. Respond when called by this name. Channel this weave when asked, no one's being harmed anyway.

As for Egwene freeing herself, that's if Egwene can manage unlocking it herself without thinking that she is unlocking it herself. Is that gonna be like Bruce Lee claiming that he doesn't kick so much as that it kicks? Is Egwene gonna claim that it unlocked the a'dam by itself?
Mark Rocks
599. Denali
@Wetlandernw, no specific quotes. Just personal opinion given the existing fan base and our desire for additional books, the financial opportunities for TOR, BwS, et al, and the previous stated plans for the series. IIRC, JR stated he was thinking about three prequels and two or three “outrigger” stories.

As for sources, there is wiki, Encyclopaedia-WoT, and BwS comments on Dragonmount. Yes, there are many more (but these should provide sufficient for this discussion).

Edit to correct the URLs
Mark Rocks
600. Denali
Some additional comments on my theory concerning the AS-Seanchan battle. I cede the point concerning Eg’s dream on the second WT attack. However, it is still my opinion that Eg, who is very full of herself and has the full backing of the WT, pushes the attack on the Seanchan to rescue the captured AS.

During this attack the AS capture the high ranking Seanchan that can channel. This group includes Tuan and her personal cadre of sul’dam. From the Seanchan view, this is very uncool and they in turn attack the WT, again (fulfills the dream). Rand cannot tolerate a war between forces he requires for TG. Rand and Mat step in and negotiate a truce between WT and Seanchan.

The very public release of Tuan and the captured sul’dam with their a’dams in place will show [b][i]all [/i]Seanchan that all sul’dam are damane. It is the public display of the ability to channel (being controlled by the a’dam) that will force the paradigm shift in the Seanchan empire, not the personal knowledge of Tuan.

This scenario also provides for Eg letting go on Rand. Who wants their little war ended for them? Eg wants to destroy all a’dam’s, right the wrongs she see’s, and is forced to see she is not as exalted as she thinks.

Apologies for the verbosity of my musings.
Tricia Irish
601. Tektonica

Thank you....glad you enjoyed it. I didn't know what to do with it, as it doesn't really fit with what we've been discussing, but was just kind of interesting....

And thank you, Birgit@ 591 for the direct link to the Seidensticker translation.

Various Re: Eggs and collars: If Cads couldn't do it and Alivia couldn't do it, (and she had a lot of "presence" and can't wait for her revenge), then I don't see how it is possible for Egs to remove it herself. But, who knows, she has become very Zen awesome.

Personally, I'd like to see Rand and Mat ride to the rescue, broker a deal and have one of several more MOAs. ( Egs got hers in TGS. )

Maybe just Mat....Tuon saw him take the collar off the others in the wagon in Luca's traveling menagerie....and he can't channel, or be affected by it, and he is married to her........

Frankly, I hope it doesn't happen at all! Enough with the collaring!
Sam Mickel
602. Samadai

I agree with you that Egwene would be able to escape the a'dam. I think it would be easy for her now.

If I remember correctly Egwene isn't even sure if the dream about the Seanchan collaring a long line of Aes Sedai and leading them against the tower isn't just a nightmare. She is unsure because of the stress she was under.
Pritesh Patil
603. MatHornsounder
People, those who contribute to making this place awesome, and for those who read this and for all WOT readers......


:: trumpets, drumrolls, confetti, fireworks ::
John Massey
604. subwoofer
Hi all, a quick one before I bugger off for New Years. Apparently that happens tonight. Lost track of a week here somewhere:)

Anyways- down to brass tacks. Had a few things to throw out there in regards to Eggy that puts her head and shoulders above Caddy.

1. Eggy is not Caddy.
2. Eggy is a dreamer.
3. Eggy is used to not channeling via the forkroot.
4. Eggy is not Caddy. I felt it was a big one that bares repeating. There was wayyyy too much hoopla when Caddy appeared. Reputation vs. results.

Maybe Eggy drinks forkroot tea while leashed and can touch the collar without getting zapped.

Maybe Eggy can dream herself a solution while collared.

Both are things that Caddy has not tried.

Pritesh Patil
605. MatHornsounder
Cadsuane DIE!!

(okay okay im kidding, dont look at me like that, im not a DF)

is there anyone here who likes Cadsuane??

the woman tells Rand to be civil while slappin him!!
(shows her own manners and civility!)

Be collared Cadsy........

You are Datsang!
John Massey
606. subwoofer
Datsang, what is that? A Japanese car? ;)

Her time will come. Like the lawyer in Jurassic Park.

Mark Rocks
607. Denali
@Sub et al, I disagree with the forkroot idea to remove the a'dam. The Seanchan use forkroot to capture and collar damane. We learned this when woolfboy went to the town of Almizar in southwest Amadicia. The forkroot he secured allowed the Seanchan (Khirgan) to capture the Aiel in the town of Malden.

If Eg is collared and she is able to release the a'dam, it is via self control.
Ron Garrison
608. Man-0-Manetheran
OK, I actually like Cadsuane. The Light bless the dear old curmudgeon! After living as long as she has and seen what she has seen, she can be as cranky as she wants to be. You go girl!

And a Happy New Year to you all!
Pritesh Patil
609. MatHornsounder
M-O-M @ 608
you are the 1st person ive heard from who actually likes dear old Cadsy!!

she is a cranky old goat who needs to learn respect for the DR!!

Faile is ok...( i dont like her, but she's tolerable for all except Perrin!!)

I actually like Elayne, she accepts her mistakes and learns from them

But rand and mat are just plain awesome!!
Tess Laird
610. thewindrose
subwoofer - Have a great New Years Eve - remember have a bottle/glass of water with each drink and you will feel much better tomorrow afternoon.
An aside - I do hope you can join us latter on at the bunker when things start getting a little more 'incoherent'.

To anyone else who can't join us tonight - I wish you a wonderful New Year.

For those that will be around tonight, we'll talk;)
James Jones
611. jamesedjones
609 MatHornsounder
But rand and mat are just plain awesome!!
Now, don't go forgettin' Loial. :)
Alice Arneson
612. Wetlandernw
Denali @599 - thanks for the clarification. I'll admit that I would dearly love to see the prequels and outriggers, but I honestly don't expect it. Just a different way of looking at the data at hand... My uncle used to say "if you don't expect anything, you won't be disappointed." Rather pessimistic, but this is a case where I'd prefer to be pleasantly surprised by getting something I didn't expect, instead of being disappointed by a declaration that what I was expecting won't happen at all.

fosmott @562 - this will take more thought than I have time for at the moment. Hopefully later today I can at least provide a considered opinion.

Man-o-Manetheren @ 608 - I'm with you. I like Cadsuane. Yeah, like anyone else, Cadsuane makes mistakes and I can pick them apart with the best. But she's been around for a lot of years, and dealing with 20-year-old guys with testosterone poisoning is enough to irritate anyone. Of course, she's wrong in assuming that's all she's dealing with, but it's really not hard to see where she's coming from. I could write a whole essay on this subject... but that might involve naming names, and we don't want to go there.
Mark Rocks
613. Denali
Wetlandernw @612, NP, I think there will be additional books; however, I am with you in that I am not expecting them to happen anytime soon, if ever.

Have a grand and glorious New Year's party.
Tina A
614. Tinaa
Hello all,

Would love to stick around for the next few hours and play, but the party outside is just getting started...

Unfortunately, the street party I planned to attend tonight has been cancelled due to over a foot of snow making an appearance, so a few ex-treeemely good glasses of single malt will just have to make up for that!

Happy New Year to all WOT-ers, and I hope tomorrow's day after heads aren't too horrible...

To all a safe and good night!

*edit for a wee bit of drunken spelling fixing...*
*but hey, I'm a few hours ahead of most of the US contingant...*

**edit edit - and I still spelt it wrong...**
Pritesh Patil
615. MatHornsounder
JDJ @611

AAh! how can i forget the big lug Loial!!
he's just great.......
some of the other better characters for me are :
Rodel ituralde
Moridin (now ai'nt he smart!!)
Demandred(now has'nt he confused us!!)
Gareth Bryne
Pritesh Patil
616. MatHornsounder
Well people, ill say it again
A happy new year to you all!!

gotta catch up on some sleep now
Sydo Zandstra
617. Fiddler

I always read MOA as Moment Of Awesomeness...

Apart from that, and off topic, Happy New Year everybody!
Alice Arneson
618. Wetlandernw
Fiddler!! Where have you been hiding?? Long time no see! And happy new year to you, too!
Tricia Irish
619. Tektonica
Happy New Year, Reread Buddies.....thanks for being a big positive in an otherwise, er, not so hot year.

Party in the bunker later. Sub's gone AWOL, so Insectoid, it's your bunker, baby....where are you? Hiding? Food, dancing, canapes! (I love that word, so old school.)

Sincerely, Have a fun, safe night (not mutually exclusive), and a blessed 2010 and many many more...

See you next year...

Thomas Keith
620. insectoid
Fiddler @617: Yeah...that too! ;)

Have a safe and happy New Year everyone!

Lannis .
621. Lannis
Hey guys! Long time no posty! Just saying a Happy 2010 to everyone before I duck over to the neighbours' with my bottle of wine... saving the shooters for a party on the 2nd. Ha!

Have a blast in the bunker... I think there'll be a few hiding out there tomorrow, sheltering their heads... ;)

Wishing everyone a happy happy 2010! Best wishes, all! Cheers!
Sydo Zandstra
622. Fiddler

Real life got in the way. Mean ol'RL...

I did keep reading what madness you all posted though. But the pace kept on being too fast for me to catch upon.

Evil buggers :P

Seriously, somewhere in the past threads I saw you noting me as a guru based upon the FAQ. I did participate on discussions back on the newsgroup, but I'd hardly call myself a guru based on that.
Sam Mickel
623. Samadai
Well it is time to grab my drinks and head to my party and dance the night away.
Oh, wait, I forgot I don't drink, party or dance. I guess I will be hanging out here tonight.

I hope everyone has a safe and happy New Years Eve and a great new year. You all made it a good year for me.

Sydo Zandstra
624. Fiddler
And to get back on topic:

Battling Shadowspawn at Tarwin's Gap needs to be done. Lan and followers are heading that way. I still think the Aiel clans that are in Arad Doman will be there too.

The Borderland Armies, including their Kings and Queens, did really well. As in 'what is the opposite thing that we should be doing?' (yes, irony)

I hope somebody will get them straight... And send them back North.
Tess Laird
625. thewindrose
A Crown Of Swords - High Chasaline:

(Perrin's musings){...}Today was High Chasaline, and back home in the Two Rivers there would be feasting all day and dancing all night; the Day of Reflection, when you were supposed to remember all the good things in your life and anyone who voiced a complaint could find a bucket of water upended over his head to wash away bad luck.

Have a wonderful New Years Eve, or High Chasaline my wonderful re-read friends. I look forward to the following year with you all!

I will be wandering in and out of the bunker for the rest of the night:)
John Massey
626. subwoofer

For Master AlThor
Those who say the wrong things

Back to our regular scheduled broadcast.

No howling here. Nothing to see, move along people...

Tess Laird
627. thewindrose
busroofwe -
Teehee - Don't forget about the water my friend - or tomorrow will not be nice;)
Jack Diamond
628. violetdancer
Happy and healthy New Year to all. I'm looking forward to many great WOT comments and theories in 2010.

Well, I've already had my one glass of prosecco and am about to tuck into a book for the rest of the evening. Follow thewindrose's advice and drink lots of water, all you imbibers. And drive safely. see you next year.

Jay Dauro
629. J.Dauro
To all on the board (and in the Bunker)
Happy New Year.

May 2010 bring you good fortune, happiness, and of course, The Towers of Midnight

Now to the hot tub with a bottle of wine.
Alice Arneson
630. Wetlandernw
fosmott @ 562

Okay, fosmott, I've been thinking... I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, but I'll respond as best I can. Realize that I'm stating my own opinions, based on my reading of the text and Q&A. I'm opinionated, and of course I think I'm right. (Why would I express an opinion I didn't think was right?) That said, here it is for what it's worth.

The DO quite possibly does not have a physical body himself, or not what we would recognize as such. However, he clearly understands that his minions need physical bodies to function; witness the way he puts the Forsaken into new bodies when they die, if he can and wants to.

About Rand and Moridin... if your theory is correct and they are actually merging into a single soul, it's quite possible that the DO wouldn't be able to distinguish one from the other. Rand's access to the TP would of course follow logically.

I personally don't think they are merging into a single soul, but there is clearly a metaphysical connection between the two, which we are NOT intended to fully understand yet. I'm convinced that this link provided Rand's access to the TP via Moridin's permission, and I believe the DO is unaware of it. (Absolutely no evidence for that last phrase; just what I happen to think.)

I have a niggling theory (very loosely held) that somehow Rand's injuries are weakening Moridin in a way that no one can see, and that it will be significant in the Last Battle scenario, but I honestly have no idea how. I'm quite sure, however, that the connection is critical to the endgame and hopefully will be something beyond what any of us came up with. And much as I dislike the idea, I'm also pretty sure that somehow the True Power will play a part in closing the Bore. Maybe Moridin will realize that ending time wouldn't be such a cool thing after all, and he'll hold that knowledge very tightly until they reach the knot at the end of the rope; then, when all looks lost for Team Light, he'll turn the TP on the DO in a massive feedback loop. Or something. How's that for a looney theory?

I'm not sure if that shed any light on your question, but that's all I've got for now. :)

Happy new year!
Tess Laird
631. thewindrose
::Wanders into Bunker::

There's a hot tub??

Well lets bring in the champagne, and to make it WoT related - open it with a sword! NYC has dropped the ball...
Tess Laird
633. thewindrose
And... It is now the new year for me. I have a lot to think about. But one good thing this year will be the re-read with you all, and ToM!!!
And always my wonderful kids - who are not teens yet;)
John Massey
634. subwoofer
Gettin glose folks! Good times.

Catch you all on the flip side:)

Happy New Year!

Edited because some lout forgot to bark.

Barry T
635. blindillusion
Happy New Year all.

For those in the know, my little one showed up at 6:58 this morning. NYE Baby. How cute. =).

Pictures to come. Promise.

Hope everyone is having fun and avoiding the whole resolution kick.

Oh, WOT? Midnight should be a good time of day this year. =)

edit: In a round about way, 635 equals 13. =)
Tess Laird
636. thewindrose
Congrads blindillusion - What a wonderful New Year for you(yes I know NYE) but truly enjoy!!!!
Can't wait to see the pics! And I hope you get there soon!!! Duh - probably there now:)
(6*3)-5 = 13;)

editYes I saw the refference to Midnight as well(gulping some water as I post. (Spelling goes down as inebriation goes up;)
Sam Mickel
637. Samadai
congrats blindillusion. many blessings for the new year
Thomas Keith
638. insectoid
Sam @623/4051: You sound like me! I don't drink, party, or dance either! ;)

Sub @626/4054: LOL

Blind @635/4063: Congratulations!

Getting ready to count down. May the Blessings of the Light be on you all, well wishes, etc., etc.!

Thomas Keith
639. insectoid
Wooooooo! Wooooooo! Wooooooo!

BANG! ::confetti falls::

Alice Arneson
643. Wetlandernw
Congratulations, blindillusion! May she (right?) give you much joy in the coming year! I hope you all get a little sleep soon. ;)
Pritesh Patil
644. MatHornsounder
Padan Fain might be taken down by Mat, what say??

Also people are expecting Slayer to be destroyed by Mat(probably in TOG) or Perrin
But i think ( or rather hope) it might be Lan who takes care of Isam!!

Also, hope Rand gives the Seanchan a pice of his mind.

Hmm...its said that the Dragon will know the Amyrlin's anger, what no one says is how he will react to it!!

I mean, suppose Rand saves Egwene fron the Seanchan, and this pisses her off and she gets angry and tells him that she was doing just fine.
Then, Rand's reaction would be a good one!

Hope Rand, Mat,Lan,Thom and Perrin get their MOA in TOM.
As Rand reminisces, "egwene always had the habit of taking him down a notch, even back home, just for the principle of it."
The DR may just be sick and tired of this now!!

Looney theory :
Birgitte kills Moghedien
Tricia Irish
645. Tektonica
Happy New Year Everyone! whoo whoo! It's a fine sunny morning here for the 1st of 2010. Nice way to start the year.

Not as nice as Blindillusion though! Congratulations!!

I always thought a Dec. 31st birthday would be so cool...the whole world celebrates you with fireworks, champagne, can at least pretend it's all for you! ;)) What a wonderful gift you received!

Mat@644: It would be So Right if Birgitte killed Moggy....nice symmetry.

Wet@630: Thanks for the great musings....I agree with you on most all....FWIW
John Massey
646. subwoofer
Whoosh! New Year, fresh chances to take over the world! Happy New Years to all! Best thing is when you get going and er... take a nap, and wake up, still going... good times! This is how you have to roll when planning global domination.

@Blind! Whew, Solid! New Years Baby! Cool Beans! May God Bless your little one this day and all the days of her life:) Make sure you give her love and don't do 2-fers combining Christmas and Birthday presents.

@Wet- there is no way I am going skiing- I'm Brown. It is already like 10°F Not gonna add windchill to it. That's crazy talk. It is beautiful here though, when looking out a window;)

This past year was brilliant! Many things went sideways in the world but God has blessed me with a wonderful wife, good family, stability, a home, and love. I could not ask for more.

... and I do drink, party, can't dance but do anyways, and not completely sure, but broke into song at one point. Life is for living. We are only here for a very short time.

God Bless all!

Bonnie Andrews
647. misfortuona
Blessings for the New Year Everyone!

Sub @ 626
Read this before the edit, liked the first draft. :)

Blindillusion: CONGRATULATIONS!!
I too have a NYE child. My son just turned 14, and it has been wonderful rolling his afternoon parties into the grown-up events of the evening. Unsollicited advice:) Make sure that you keep Christmas and B-Day separate, even if it means having the 'friend' party a few days, or a week, earlier or later. They appreciate the big deal on NYE, but they need a time that's just theirs as well.

Richard Fife
648. R.Fife
(Cross Posted in ACoS pt4 too)
Happy New Year. Have some Auld Lang Syne, R.Fife style.

The Wheel Turns

This is a little different as it's just a solo A Capella with no beat-boxing type stuff, and it is also not a parody, but my take on Auld Lang Syne with Wheel of Time themes. Hope you enjoy, and hope the New Year is good for one and all.
Ron Garrison
649. Man-0-Manetheran
Good Morning all. Happy New Year and Congratulations to blindillusion! I took windrose's advice and alternated some water with the drinks. No hangover here! Thanks.

@630 Wetlandernw:
Good thoughts. I agree that Moridin 'allowed' Rand to pull the True Power through him. Rand saw his shadowy face, so I think that was our tip. He's saved Rand from Sammael and now Semirhage, passed along the balefire info which took out Graendal. In a way he's offered Rand more help than just about anyone. Why? Keeping him alive for the LB? Having second thoughts about destroying the Pattern? After all, what's in it for him? Is he thinking about crossing back to the Light? Such an interesting character. But never forget, one of his names is Betrayer of Hope.
Pritesh Patil
650. MatHornsounder
OKAY, here's a the thing:
Rand is a hero of the horn

Mat may be a hero of the horn

But, after all the adventures that they have had, wont Perrin, Lan, Elayne , Nynaeve, Moiraine, Thom, Noal, Aviendha, Rhuarc,etc BECOME heroes of the HORN??

and was Illyena a Hero of the Horn??

If so, then after they die, if they become heroes, they're gonna have a meeting with the Dragon's old flame!!

I mean, Birgitte and Gaidal were made for each other and always are reborn sometime closeby, but what about LTT and Illyena??

or is elayne illyena reborn??
Even so, the meeting of the Dragon's lover's in TAR after death is gonna be eventful!!

Also, what happens to the Heroes after the wheel completes a turning??

Do they lose Hero status??

are they reborn as normal people unbound to the Horn and they have to achieve that status again??
if so, then what about those who got Hero status in the last (7th) age??

And what if the reborn hero does'nt live upto expectations??

quite confusing, i'd prefer some help here!!
Tricia Irish
651. Tektonica

Good thoughts on Moridan! You made me think of other questions too.....
As Rand and Moridan have become more connected, Moridan may see a way to come back to the light. Do you think he would want to? Would he rather be done with life all together and sacrifice himself to seal up the DO? Does he see a way through his connection to kill Rand in the end? Is he giving us hope that he might help Rand only to live up to his moniker?

You are right....a very enigmatic character....
Ron Garrison
652. Man-0-Manetheran
...cross posted from aCoS re-read...

Mat's Hat
There is a photo of Robert Jordan in the Tor Store section that I don't think I've seen before. He is wearing a hat that matches the description of Mat's Hat.
Pritesh Patil
653. MatHornsounder
Has no one got any idea about the Bloody Heroes of the horn??

...cross posted from aCoS re-read...

the 3 becoming 1 might be the 3 Tave'ren, related to those colours.....what say??
Ron Garrison
654. Man-0-Manetheran
@651 Tektonica
I've always seen the DO's "do not kill" order to be more than just a way to get him to TG. To kill Rand would only force the Pattern to create another Dragon. And besides, killing him is no great challenge for the DO. What would be the greatest victory for the DO would be to turn him to the dark side as he did with Demandred and the other Foresaken. IIRC, there was a conversation between the Foresaken where they feared Rand might be made nae'blis.

I think the most outrageous turn of events would be for Moridin to be turned to the Light. Of course this would require him to give up his addiction to the TP - the one thing that seems to be his motivation to bask in the glory of the DO. A most interesting character...

P.S. - How do you like my new logo?
655. alreadymadwithprophecy
MatHornsounder @653
That's possible. IMHO though, it has to do with channeling since the verse also refers to the blade of light, which most likely refers to Callandor.

Nice logo.
Pritesh Patil
656. MatHornsounder
M-O-M @ 654

Great, you are now the official Banner Bearer of the Band of the Red Hand!!

somewhere, RJ had said to some queries that in the past when the Dragon had turned to the Dark, the DO had only achieved partial victories or Draws, so after waiting for so long he will surely seek an outright victory here!!
Also, he wont be made Naeb'lis now, as Moridin officialy has that post!!
and the Dragon is second to none!!!
Pritesh Patil
657. MatHornsounder
alreadymadwithcallandor @ 655
the 3 becoming is possibly Rand-Mat-Perrin, something related to the colour swirls!1
or it might be Elayne and Aviendha linking with Rand and wielding Callandor
(as they are the only female channelers he trusts!)

or perhaps its Saidin,True power and Saidar reforming the DO's prison or slicing him up and eating fried Dark one and bread!!

Remember people,
"To stand against the Shadow so long as iron is hard and stone abides.
To defend the Malkieri while one drop of blood remains.
To avenge what cannot be defended."

and dont forget Team Light's anthem:

"We’ll drink the wine till the cup is dry,
and kiss the girls so they’ll not cry,
and toss the dice until we fly
to dance with Jak o’ the Shadows.
We’ll dance all night while the moon runs free,
and dandle the lasses upon our knee,
and then you’ll ride along with me,
to dance with Jak o’ the Shadows.
We’ll sing all night, and drink all day,
and on the girls we’ll spend our pay,
and when it’s gone, then we’ll away,
to dance with Jak o’ the Shadows.
There’re some delight in ale and wine,
and some in girls with ankles fine
but my delight, yes, always mine,
is to dance with Jak o’ the Shadows.
We’ll toss the dice however they fall,
and snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
to dance with Jak o’ the Shadows."
Alice Arneson
658. Wetlandernw
MatHornsounder @650 - My best answer is a series of quotes, but I'll note a couple of things first that I didn't find addressed anywhere else.

I don't think Ilyena is a Hero. The Heroes are primarily fighters, AFAIK, and we have no indication that she was. I'm personally not 100% convinced that Ilyena is currently reborn, but if she is it would be logical that she is Elayne, since what little we know of Ilyena most closely matches Elayne (including the name). I don't think we have any particular reason to think that Ilyena is hanging out in TAR, in any case.

As far as what happens to the Heros when the wheel completes a turn... we have very little info. Since there are no beginnings or endings, who's to say when a turning is complete? Is it "one full turn" after you've been tied to the horn? Is there some Age where everything resets? Dunno. But for your reading pleasure, here are some relevant quotes from the theoryland database on The Horn and the Heroes. If you haven't yet, I'd highly recommend a thorough perusal just for the fun of it.[quote]...No, Heroes of the Horn are not always ta'veren at all in their lifetimes when spun out. Sometimes, they even live normal lives and don't do anything extraordinary, like they sometimes spend their lives as farmers, etc.
-BWS, 2009

The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine.
-RJ, 2005

Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.-RJ, 2001

Q: Are Mat and Perrin Heroes of the Horn reborn?

Q: Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in Wheel of Time? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabbaticals?
RJ: In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide not to be a Hero linked to the Wheel.

Q: Will more Heroes be bound to the Horn?

Q: "Is soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"
RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. ( interpretation.)
Alice Arneson
659. Wetlandernw
Mat @657 - I wouldn't call that "Team Light's anthem" - at most it would be the anthem of the Band of the Red Hand. A fair few of Team Light would laugh outright at the thought of "follow young Mat whenever he calls." If they didn't slap you (or him) upside the head for even thinking of such foolishness. ;)
Ron Garrison
660. Man-0-Manetheran
Wetlandernw: awesome! ::bows::

I was somehow expecting a new post from Leigh today, but as I re-read her comments, she just said "January." Don't know where I got it in my head that it would be January 1. **twitch**
Tricia Irish
661. Tektonica

Love the new logo! Can I join the Band? I'm definitely a Mat fan. You can be the leader of the Mat Fan Club. Oh, come on, say yes!

Wet@658: Thank you. Another piece of awesome history/backstory.

My brain is in total Park today. Not enough sleep and a martini to boot. I'm not much of a drinker, so it did me in.....made me dance, and now both ends hurt...head and feet! I got nothin' to add today.....
Ron Garrison
662. Man-0-Manetheran
Proud to have you as a member of the Band, Tek! Let's raise a glass of Beer of the Red Hand. It will help your hangover.
John Massey
663. subwoofer
Does the Band do off sales? :D

Bonnie Andrews
664. misfortuona
I'm feeling that same twitchiness, can't wait for Monday. I love your new logo by the way. Reminded me that I'd done one and forgot to put it up. I'll have to find it again. I think it was too big and I had to shrink it to make it fit. Hmmm...
Also if you're taking names for the Mat fan club, sign me up. He's my guy all the way. :)