Dec 18 2009 5:47pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: A Crown of Swords, Part 4

Greetings, WOTers! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Re-read!

In honor of the season, please imagine that this post has sparkly lights and tinsel twined about it, and snow artistically piled on the letters, and that some clichéd sleigh bells are jingling in the background. Please make sure that the lights are the TWINKLY kind, because I do not truck with those boring steady-glow things. Preferably, they should be white and not colored, but I’m willing to negotiate on that point.

Yes, I have Opinions about festival lighting. I have opinions about everything. But you knew that.

Today’s entry covers Chapters 5 and 6 of A Crown of Swords, in which in which Rand disturbs everything but a hairstyle.

Previous re-read entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, in which you can find links to news, reviews, and all manner of yummy tidbits regarding the newest release, The Gathering Storm, and for WOT-related stuff in general.

This re-read post contains spoilers for all currently published Wheel of Time novels, up to and including Book 12, The Gathering Storm. If you haven’t read, read at your own risk.

Don’t forget: the Re-read briefly goes back on hiatus for the rest of the year, but will be back in all its glory, assuming it has glory, in January. I totes swear, you guys.

And that’s the story, morning glory! Onward to the post!

Chapter 5: A Broken Crown

What Happens
The party marches tensely through the palace to the throne room. The guards at the door gasp in shock to see Rand, and fall to their knees, one of them praying hoarsely under his breath.

“So am I loved,” Rand said softly. He hardly sounded himself.

The throne room is filled to bursting with nobles, and the party gets almost halfway through the room before Rand is recognized; gasps fill the room, and Perrin smells fear throughout the company, but he is only paying attention to the dais at the end of the hall, where Colavaere sits on the Sun Throne flanked by seven ladies-in-waiting. Perrin thinks he sees an eighth woman hidden behind the throne, but all he cares about is that one of the seven attendants is Faile; she looks at Perrin without expression. Rand tells Sulin to wait, and she agrees reluctantly, but then she and all the Maidens veil themselves, causing fresh gasps from the room. Rand walks up to the dais slowly, and Colavaere darts looks behind him.

“Looking for Aes Sedai?” Rand’s voice echoed. He smiled unpleasantly. “I sent them to the Aiel camp. If the Aiel can’t teach them manners, no one can.” A shocked murmur rose, and fell raggedly. Fear became stronger than the perfumes in Perrin’s nose.

Colavaere rallies, and tries welcoming Rand back to Cairhien. Perrin follows him halfway to the dais, but stops when Faile gives no sign of welcome to him, but only stares consideringly. Rand lays a hand on the throne, and says Colavaere knows he means it for Elayne Trakand. Colavaere counters bravely that Cairhien needs a Cairhienin ruler, and rumor reports Elayne to be dead along with her mother. Rand replies flatly that Elayne is alive, and will have the thrones of both Andor and Cairhien. Colavaere replies that what is done cannot be undone.

For all her dignity, all her courage, Colavaere made a visible effort not to flinch as Rand reached out and took hold of the Sun Crown. There was a loud crack of metal snapping, and the crown flexed, hardly disarraying her tower of curls as it pulled away, slowly straightening. A few of the brilliant yellow stones popped from their settings and fell. He held up the stretched arc of metal, and slowly it bent back on itself until the ends met, and . . . Maybe the Asha’man could see what happened, could understand, but to Perrin, one moment the crown was broken, the next it was whole again. No one among the nobles made a sound, not even a shuffling of boots; Perrin thought they might be afraid to. To his nose, stark terror was stronger than any other scent now. It did not quiver; it spasmed wildly.

“Whatever can be done,” Rand said softly, “can be undone.”

Breathily, Colavaere protests that she has kept all Rand’s laws, and when he says nothing, begs him to give her the throne, insisting she has the right to it. Perrin wonders why Rand is dragging this out; jumping in, he asks Colavaere if she had the right to murder Maringil and Meilan, and demands to know where Berelain is. He instantly curses himself as Faile gives him a glance that “could have set water aflame”. Colavaere protests her innocence vehemently, and draws herself up and tells Rand that she is Queen of Cairhien, unless he would rip all their laws asunder. Rand still says nothing, and Colavaere calls for “Annoura” to come advise her. The woman behind the throne steps out, clearly Aes Sedai by her ageless face, and Perrin is surprised when Havien grins at the sight of her. Annoura tells Colavaere that she cannot advise her, and that she allowed Colavaere to “misperceive” their relationship. Then she adds unsteadily to Rand that there is no need for “this”, and that if she had intended him ill she would have struck while unseen. Rand answers icily that she might have died had she tried.

“I’m not who has you shielded, Aes Sedai. Who are you? Why are you here? Answer me! I don’t have much patience with . . . your kind. Unless you want to be hauled out to the Aiel camp? I wager the Wise Ones can make you speak freely.”

Annoura makes the connection quickly, as do most of the nobles; they crowd back from the Asha’man in stark terror, some of them passing out. (Perrin notes that Loial is managing to take notes in the middle of all this.) Annoura says she is of the Gray Ajah, and is advisor to Berelain; she was kept secret because of the Tairen attitude toward Mayene and Aes Sedai together, but she thinks the time for secrets is past. Rand says if Berelain confirms her story, he will release her to Berelain’s parole, but warns her that he will not be manipulated or schemed against; one wrong move and she goes to the Wise Ones with the others. Annoura answers with false calm that she understands. Then Faile steps forward and denounces Colavaere to Rand, saying she had planned to oust the Aiel and recant the laws Rand had set in place; she adds that the woman Faile had gotten this information from (Maire) disappeared soon after, and Faile believes Colavaere had her murdered. Dobraine steps up and formally accuses Colavaere of treason, for which the penalty is execution. Only Perrin hears Rand say “No. I cannot. I will not” and realizes Rand’s delay has been about searching for a way to avoid condemning Colavaere to death. Colavaere searches frantically among the nobles for support, but finds none; she hisses at Faile that she lies, and Perrin growls that Faile does not lie (to himself: “Well, not about something like this”). Colavaere demands proof, claiming that Maire left the city, and without Maire there is no proof of the accusations against her. Then Annoura puts in that Berelain had brought two experienced thief-catchers with her from Mayene, who have procured solid evidence that Colavaere was behind both Maringil and Meilan’s murders.

Word by word the defiance leached out of Colavaere. She still stood, yet it seemed a wonder; she appeared as limp as a damp rag. “They promised,” she mumbled to Rand. “They promised you would never return.” Too late, she clamped both hands over her mouth. Her eyes bulged. Perrin wished he could not hear the sounds coming from her throat. No one should make sounds like that.

With satisfaction, Dobraine amends the charges to treason and murder, and adds that by Rand’s new laws, that now means hanging. Perrin sees that Min is looking at Rand with great sadness as they hear this. Colavaere, near to collapse, manages to demand beheading instead, as befitting her station. Rand seems to struggle with himself; at length he announces that he strips Colavaere of all her titles and possessions, and then asks if she owns a “small farm”. This confuses everyone, but Dobraine confirms that she owns many. Rand orders Dobraine to find out which is the smallest, and to exile her there, making sure she never leaves it. The nobles murmur in scandalized confusion, and Colavaere drops down in a faint; Perrin leaps forward to catch her, but she stops in midair and comes to rest gently on the dais. Perrin guesses that was Rand, as he’s sure the Asha’man would have let her fall. Annoura comments that she suspects Colavaere would have preferred beheading; Rand snaps back that she is alive, and begins giving out orders, but pauses to gaze at the frozen crowd of nobles in the hall, whom Perrin imagines are wondering if he considers them being there treason too.

“This audience is at an end,” Rand said. “I will forget every face that departs now.”

The nobles start filing out, slowly at first, but then, perhaps wondering what exactly Rand meant by “now”, start moving faster and faster until they are shoving and pushing to get out. None of them look at Colavaere as they leave.

This is not my favorite scene in WOT, or even in this book, but it’s frickin’ brilliantly done, in my opinion, and ranks pretty high on my overall list of Kickass WOT Sceneage. The tension in this chapter, for one thing, makes piano wire look relaxed; I remember the first time reading this I nearly had sympathetic heart palpitations, wondering how it was all going to be resolved.

While Colavaere more than got what she deserved and I have no sympathy for her per se, Jordan did a marvelous job of putting the reader in her shoes and making us feel what she feels, even from an outside and similarly unsympathetic point of view (Perrin’s). All I have to say is, any day where you are demanding the headsman as the best of your possible range of choices is a really bad day. This observation has been brought to you by Captain Obvious and the letter “Duh”.

All that said, it was something of a bitch to recap, seeing as just about every line in it was significant plotwise, and fraught with portent besides; it really annoys me when I feel like all I’m doing is rephrasing the entire chapter in lesser prose. But as this is a problem fairly unique unto myself, I shan’t dwell on it. You’re welcome.

Loial: Hah! Taking notes. He really is WOT’s resident nerd.

Annoura: I have to say, I quite like her. She doesn’t really get to do that much of significance that I recall, seeing as she spends most of her screen time mired in Ghealdan with Berelain and the rest of That Damn Plotline, but based on her behavior here, woman’s got a good head on her shoulders and some serious brass, to so calmly deliver the coup de grace to Colavaere while facing on no notice what is more or less an Aes Sedai’s worst nightmare come to life.

She is, frankly, a breath of fresh Aes Sedai air after having Kiruna stuck up our collective noses for so long. Annoura’s no Moiraine or Siuan, but at least she walks the walk. It’s also nice that she and Berelain seem to be BFFs, or at least to have a solid working relationship, which speaks well of Annoura, seeing as most Aes Sedai seem to consider it beneath them to be friends with a non-channeler, even if said non-channeler is royalty.

“So am I loved”: you know, it’s kind of a thing. On the one hand, I’m pretty sure that having people be absolutely terrified of you is actually not that much fun to experience in real life, but I must somewhat ashamedly confess that reading about it as a character’s proxy is… kind of awesome. This, possibly, constitutes proof that it is a good thing no one has ever endowed me with Phenomenal Cosmic Power.

Though honestly you can never tell how someone will deal with that sort of thing until they have it. I would like to think that I would handle power at least as well as Rand has (hopefully better, really), but the fact of the matter is, I’d never know until I actually had it. The same way you can train and train a recruit, but never know how they will perform in combat until they are actually there. It’s not a question that can be resolved except in practice. This, I think, is why the world has problems.

Chapter 6: Old Fear, and New Fear

What Happens
Rand, Min, and most of the others leave the throne room while the nobles are still scrambling to get out; Perrin, Aram, Dobraine and Faile remain behind, Perrin and Faile staring at each other and Dobraine staring at the unconscious Colavaere. Perrin goes to Faile and takes her hand, and she takes out a fan and taps her cheek, then his; Perrin knows there is a whole language of fans in Saldaea, but he doesn’t know what this gesture means; her scent is filled with jealousy, though. Dobraine mutters that Rand should have sent Colavaere to the block, and he and Faile have an oblique conversation which Perrin only belatedly realizes is her suggesting Dobraine should do something more permanent with Colavaere than exile her to a farm, and Dobraine refusing.

Every hair on his body tried to stand. From the start he had known that he had married a very dangerous woman. Just not how dangerous.

He catches Aram, who worships Faile, eyeing Colavaere speculatively, and points out firmly that Rand would not like it if anything kept Colavaere from reaching that farm, and neither would he. Faile is disbelieving of Rand’s claims that the Aes Sedai are under his control, instead of the other way around, even after both Dobraine and Perrin swear they saw nine of them give oaths of fealty to Rand with their own eyes, and Perrin realizes that he smells fear on her as well as jealousy. He asks if she truly thinks they are all Aes Sedai puppets, and she answers she’s heard Aes Sedai can do things like that. He asks jokingly if Rand having Verin dance the sa’sara would convince her, but she taps her fan against her wrist, which Perrin knows means I am giving your suggestion serious thought. She continues that she thinks an Aes Sedai would do almost anything to get what she wants, and shivers. Perrin pulls her into a hug, which she returns.

“If any Aes Sedai ever harms you,” she whispered, “I will kill her.” He believed her. “You belong to me, Perrin t’ Bashere Aybara. To me.” He believed that, too. As her hug grew fiercer, so did the thorny scent of jealousy. He almost chuckled. It seemed the right to put a knife in him was reserved to her. He would have chuckled, except that filament of fear remained. That, and what she had said about Maire. He could not smell himself, but he knew what was there. Fear. Old fear, and new fear, for the next time.

Perrin sends Aram off to bring the Two Rivers men into the city, and heads with Faile to their apartments. On the way he hears people following them and spins to confront Selande and her friends, whom he is surprised to see now includes some Tairens. He growls at them that he’ll “kick the lot of [them] from here to Bel Tine” if they make trouble, and Faile tells them to obey her husband, as he is “not a man to be trifled with”. They bow profusely and back off. Perrin mutters about “bloody young buffoons”, and asks Faile how she ended up as one of Colavaere’s attendants. Wary of servants eavesdropping, she murmurs so low that only he can hear that Colavaere jumped at the chance to take her in once she found out who Faile’s father was; Perrin thinks this sounds reasonable, but knows Faile enough to know that’s far from the only reason. He waits until they are in their rooms, and begins to say he worried about her, but she cuts him off furiously.

“Worried about me!” she snapped, spinning to face him. She stood straight and tall, eyes fierce as those of her falcon namesake, and her fan made a coring motion toward his middle. Not part of the language of fans; she made the same gesture with a knife sometimes. “When almost the first words from your mouth were to ask after that . . . that woman!”

Perrin protests that he only wanted Berelain’s thief-catchers and their proof against Colavaere, which only makes Faile angrier that her proof was apparently not good enough. She spits that Berelain had spread rumors after he left that Perrin was in a manor in the country where Berelain could “visit” him, and everyone believed her story instead of Faile’s, and furthermore that Colavaere had delighted in throwing Faile and Berelain together at every opportunity.

“‘Faile, Berelain, come lace my gown.’ ‘Faile, Berelain, come hold the mirror for the hairdresser.’ ‘Faile, Berelain, come wash my back.’ So she could amuse herself waiting for us to claw one another’s eyes out! That is what I have put up with! For you, you hairy-eared—!”

His back thumped against the wall. And something snapped inside him. He had been frightened spitless for her, terrified, ready to face down Rand or the Dark One himself. And he had done nothing, had never encouraged Berelain, had done everything in his wits to chase the woman away. For which his thanks was this.

Gently he took her by the shoulders and lifted her until those big tilted eyes were level with his. “You listen to me,” he said calmly. He tried to make his voice calm, at least; it came out more of a growl in his throat. “How dare you speak to me like that? How dare you? I worried myself near to death for fear you’d been hurt. I love you, and nobody else but you. I want no other woman but you. Do you hear me? Do you?”

He clasps her in his arms, and confesses that he would die if anything happened to her. She grabs his beard when he tries to put her down, and says warmly that a woman likes to hear “I love you” said in the right way. Perrin is stunned; the jealousy is completely gone from her smell, and he gathers by her smoldering look that she’s about to make a comment about Saldaean farmgirls; before she can, though, Rand bursts in.

“Perrin, Berelain isn’t—I’m sorry. Forgive me.” Rand stood shifting his feet, not at all like the Dragon Reborn. There were Maidens in the hallway outside. Min put her head around the doorframe, took one look, grinned at Perrin and ducked back out of sight.

Faile steps away and apologizes pointedly for not hearing his knock, and Rand blushes, but goes on that Berelain is apparently spending the night on a Sea Folk ship. Perrin wishes he would stop mentioning her name, and asks if Rand needed to talk about anything else. Rand stares into space a moment, then asks if Perrin is sure he won’t command his army in Illian; Perrin answers that he is no general, thinking he could not face having men die under his command again, and adds that besides, he thought Min’s viewing meant he had to stay close to Rand. Rand answers that everyone has to take risks, and Perrin takes him at his word by bringing up the Aes Sedai, telling him he will not allow Rand or the Wise Ones to harm them.

Cold blue eyes met his gaze. “You won’t let it?”

I won’t,” Perrin told him levelly. He did not flinch from that stare, either. “They are prisoners, and no threat. They’re women.”

“They are Aes Sedai.” Rand’s voice was so like Aram’s back at Dumai’s Wells that it nearly took Perrin’s breath.


“I do what I have to do, Perrin.” For a moment he was the old Rand, not liking what was happening. For a moment he looked tired to death. A moment only. Then he was the new Rand again, hard enough to mark steel. “I won’t harm any Aes Sedai who doesn’t deserve it, Perrin. I can’t promise more.”

He continues that it’s just as well about Illian, as he can use Perrin elsewhere, apologizes that he can’t let them rest more than a day or two, and leaves. Faile wonders rhetorically why a man’s sense is inversely proportional to his courage, which Perrin finds a little rich considering what she had been doing, and then decides she doesn’t want the answer, since she feels as forward as a farmgirl at –

“Why are you laughing? Stop laughing at me, Perrin t’Bashere Aybara! Stop it, I say, you uncouth oaf! If you don’t—”

The only way to put an end to it was to kiss her. In her arms he forgot Rand and Aes Sedai and battles. Where Faile was, was home.

I swear, these two exhaust me.

I think I’ve said this before, but: I know there are couples out there who thrive on the whole slap-slap-kiss-kiss dynamic, and if it works for you, great, I guess, but the notion of living like that all the time makes me damn near narcoleptic. I just wanna take a nap now. I’m just entirely unconvinced that the alleged great sex that results is anywhere near the aggro needed to get to it, you know?

But, whatever. Again, Faile’s unfounded jealousy is annoying, but then again I have to say if some other woman had been going around telling people she was shacking up with my husband pretty much right in front of me? Um, yeah, I don’t think I would have reacted particularly well to that either. In fact, the more I think about the situation, the more I have to give Faile credit that she didn’t completely lose her shit and try to cut Berelain into tiny pieces.

Of course, that doesn’t excuse her taking it out on Perrin, but, well. Someone needs to give Faile a punching bag – a literal one. I don’t think they have punching bags in Randland, but girl definitely needs something besides her husband to pummel.

I was a little surprised here, having really not remembered that Faile had been genuinely afraid that Perrin et al are Aes Sedai puppets. It sounds silly to the reader, but I don’t think it’s actually an unreasonable fear for her to have had; true, present-day Aes Sedai can’t actually pull that kind of thing off, but given that they have been riding on their overinflated reputation for something like three millenia now, it’s not particularly surprising that Faile would believe they were capable of it.

Fans: This is a little absurd, but the thought that came to me about this is to wonder why a country that’s so cold all the time would develop a code language around a device that is primarily intended to cool you off in hot weather. Though I suppose Saldaea could have hot summers? And anyway, temperature is relative. It’s possible I’m overthinking this.

Perrin: Also forgot he vowed here not to Be In Charge anymore. That didn’t last long, did it?

…Well, it didn’t last long in the sense that Perrin ends up Being In Charge of people again in like two chapters; in the sense of us having to listen to Perrin angst about Being In Charge, we’re at six books and counting. Oy.

The seemingly-brewing confrontation between Perrin and Rand over the Aes Sedai is one of those things that never really came to fruition as a plotline; Perrin will use the topic as the basis of the ruse he and Rand pull off later, but that doesn’t really count, since that was (mostly) faking, and he and Rand have not been together since. I don’t even know if it ever will come up again, given how much the situation will have changed by the time the two of them are reunited. It’s not a big deal, I guess, but it does make the thematic harmonizer in me twitch a bit.

Did that last sentence actually make sense to anyone besides me? Oh well.

That’s our show, kids! I wish each and every one of you a lovely Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, Pancha Ganapati, Islamic New Year, Gregorian New Year, Winter Break, or whatever combination of those you happen to celebrate, and hope everyone stays safe and warm and slightly tipsy. See y’all next decade!

Darth Touma
1. Darth Touma
Thanks Leigh..

I was about to leave the office.. perserverance pays off..

I get my cyber slacking in before the weekend...

Darth Touma
2. Texas WoT man
Regarding the Perrin/A.S. plotline -> A little later on (in this book or the next, can't remember right off hand) once Perrin + followers get settled he makes an attempt to ease the situation between the A.S. and the Wise Ones that are with him. During that chat I believe he comes to realize that at least some of the A.S. are grudgingly "ok" with the arrangement. I don't think it completely settles his mind, but I think it eased the tension enough for that plot to go by the wayside.
Thomas Keith
3. insectoid
Great post as always, Leigh! Totally agree about "Wizards"--except now I have it stuck in my head. Thanks, and have a Happy Holiday! :)

More later.

Darth Touma
4. junior1234
One of the few things I like about about Faile, is that she's really one of the few people on the good side who is just flat out rude to Rand.

And it's not a silly AS power game, she just doesnt really like or care that much about him.

Rand seems to be the center of everyone's world in this book, but Faile just doesnt really give a crap one way or the other about him.
Ron Garrison
5. Man-0-Manetheran
*stops twitching*

“So am I loved” - One of those great lines. It's so good that I wonder where I've heard it before. Maybe nowhere, but it's just perfect.

"Someone needs to give Faile a punching bag – a literal one." You have hit upon it there, Leigh. I have a friend who has an 80 lb. bag in her garage, and she knows how to use it!
S Diller
6. CuenDiller
I still don't understand why Rand is so adamant about Elayne taking both thrones. I get that she has a link to both and a right to Andor, but both? Really?
Darth Touma
7. keegansgirl
Have a great holiday, and looking forward to the new year of posts!
Darth Touma
8. alreadymadwithfans
Fans. They have a language centered around it because they have to use it for something. They don't seem to use it to throw off the heat.

I liked the throneroom scene and Annoura's first appearance too.
Darth Touma
9. jefff
Thanks Leigh - awesome as always.

Have a super holiday season.
Darth Touma
10. DHolton
re Faile's AS fears:

I think that Faile is someone who has really bought into the reputation of the Aes Sedai. In addition to her fears here, she is completely taken in by Galina's claims that she is with the Aiel for a purpose, not just a simple prisoner. Despite all the time wondering at how she "lets" Sevannah treat her, it never occurs to her that Galina simply can't leave.

In fact, she bases her entire escape strategy on getting Galina the oath rod so that Galina will take them with her. I can't think of any other character in WOT that has that much faith in the abilities of just one Aes Sedai.
Darth Touma
11. keegansgirl
@ 6 CuenDiller

I always figured that he wanted rulers that he could trust, and don't we all want to give extravagant gifts to our loved ones?

Any other thoughts?
Darth Touma
12. Alfvaen
CuenDiller@6: I think he wants Elayne on both thrones because she's one of the few people he knows he can trust. Although at this point he's not quite sure if she loves him or not, and he's surely a bit wary of her intention to be Aes Sedai, she's still several degrees of Dobraine on the Rand Trust-O-Meter.
Darth Touma
13. kwakamiya
Morgase's husband was Taringail Damodred giving Elayne rights to both the Lion and Sun thrones.
Lannis .
14. Lannis
Thanks Leigh! Great recap! Have a great break! :)
Bryan Cogswell
15. shmoo
re Faile's AS fears:

But (and i can't believe i'm defending Faile) - you are being unfair to Faile... Galina told her in plain english to her face that she was doing something important there... and OF COURSE AS can't lie...

Your take on Faile would make for some strangeness - a woman that here stands up to freaking Rand (sorta) but would not to a mere AS?

I'd have to reread exactly what Galina said - but it seems like she used the ability to lie and Faile's belief that she couldn't to full advantage.

Meanwhile - i'd suggest that we have quite a few characters who trust/have lots of faith in one AS... Moraine
Heather Porter
16. Bym1971
Happy holidays to you, Leigh, and all other WOTers out there!

And now, of course, I'm going to have to listen to Trans Siberian all weekend, because once it's in my head it won't get out. Dangit, Leigh! :-)
Darth Touma
17. Dholton

Ok, you've got me on Moiraine.:-)

As for Faile and Galina, I know she's been deceived by Galina, and even "impossibly" lied to. Which is why I didn't accuse her of utter stupidity. But even given that, she still has been hanging around various Aes Sedai for quite a while now, and should have a fair idea of their capabilities. Her belief that one Aes Sedai (who can't travel that is) could get a large number of people away from the Aiel just like that seems a little excessive.

And I wasn't saying that Faile was being submissive or fawning on Galina, just that she put an awful lot of faith in her ability to get them out.
Jonah Feldman
18. relogical
What was Colavaere thinking? "What is done cannot be undone." No backsies!

When does that logic ever work? I crown myself Queen, and there's nothing a man with huge armies and superpowers can do to dethrone me? He'll just have to live with me? Seriously? And she said that to his face?

For once I understood what it felt like to be Rand. He has to sentence Colavaere to death. It's his own rule, there's no way around it. But he can't kill a woman. Duty, mountains, feathers, etc. And she's not making it easier on him. So he tries to take a third option, but it doesn't really help in the end.
Bryan Cogswell
19. shmoo

Yeah. I'd buy that I see what you are saying and I agree. Except that it is Faile who i've had issues with so I've never really thought about it. It was more like... "dude, we are talking about Faile here... so i'm SHOCKED SHOCKED that she is doing something stupid."

But what other excape options did she really have? She saw people attempt it and knew that was impossible. Perhaps that brotherless aiel would have come around at some point.

Thinking about it now (and perhaps we should wait until we get to that book) - but Galina is her one branch that Asmo talked about. She knows it is hopeless but will cling to that hope until it gives away and she falls.
Darth Touma
20. Seamus1602
Re: Faile

there are things that get on my nerves about Faile, and Perrin doesn't deserve some of the jealousy Faile throws his way - some his stupidity totally deserves - but...

Perrin has always been the one of those 2 that has really bugged me. He's been pulling his emo crap since book 1 and turning from the wolves when he has a clear example of someone who has done quite well with it. Faile makes Perrin much more interesting to me because it's not always about how Perrin's afraid of being strong/having power/leading. At least Faile's got a pair (or whatever).

Though I hate the Neverending Storyline as much as anyone, Perrin, not Faile, is the problem between the 2.
David Scotton
21. Kaxon
Sorry, but I'm imagining this post surrounded by colorful non-blinky lights. Plain non-colorful lights are boring, but blinking is distracting. :)

- David
Darth Touma
22. Rukaiya
I have to say, something that really bothers me throughout the entire series, but particularly in the first few chapters of A Crown of Swords, is that no one seems to possess the slightest smidgen of empathy for Rand (except Min). He's just been through a horrific ordeal, but it doesn't ever seem to occur to anyone how badly he's hurting. They're all too busy being afraid of him or worried he's going mad. So much trouble could be saved throughout the series if a few characters stopped and really thought about the situation Rand's in and tried to be a little more understanding. He's obviously not the easiest person to talk to, and he's not about to dump his troubles on anyone's shoulders, but it seems like a little more personal support might be in order. Even Perrin, supposedly Rand's friend, just treats him like a ruler. He never seems to think that Rand might really need a friend too. Ugh. Sigh.
Bryan Cogswell
23. shmoo

hmm.... hate to be Mr. Post-a-lot but...

While I agree with you how many people really know what happened to rand? Min and... the captured AS and the younglings.

Sure stories will be told - but by the time Rand's people (Perin, Taim, etc) got to him - he had already gotten out of the box. Sure he most likely was brused and bloody. But Perin on his kill crazy rampage would have been equally bloody. I've always just kinda assumed that no one (other than Min, Young'ns, and the Captured Tower AS) knew what happened. And none of those groups have an incentive to tell others what has happening to him on the trip north.

It doesn't seem like until later when Min tells Cads what happened that anyone else really knew.

Or did i miss/forget something?
Tess Laird
24. thewindrose
Addressing the belief in Galina that Faile has:
(This after the Perrin comment of making Verin dance the sa'sara. "I don't know what would be enough, Perrin." She shivered slightly. "Is there anything an Aes Sedai would not do, or put up with, if the White Tower told her to? I have studied my history, and I was taught to read between the lines. Mashera Donavelle bore seven children for a man she loathed, whatever the stories say, and Isebaille Tobanyi delivered the brothers she loved to their enemies and the throne of Arad Doman with them, and Jestian Redhill...." She shivered again, not so slightly.
Bryan Cogswell
25. shmoo
Faile -- I'm gonna have to go back and read The Dragon Reborn for how she treated/was treated by Moraine... I seem to recall it was subservant to M but transfered any and all negative energy towards Perin. Every time I read it my eyes glaze over and i think...ok these guys are 18-21 or so... we've all been there. Lan/Mor are the adults etc etc moving on to the next chapter.

NOW - i'm gonna have to watch how she interacts with each AS. That might make the Perin/Faile chapters less painful... perhaps.

Of course she does come from a culture where they respect AS more than the southern lands. Since she grew up in the Royal Court (i assume) she would have had an AS around most likely. Perhaps that flavors/taints her views.

hmm. Ok. I'm done with my random assumptions.

Shmoo (or today i'm sir-post-alot)
Alice Arneson
26. Wetlandernw
Rukaiya @22 - So agree. I find it heartbreaking, because for all his power, he's just barely turned 21 at this point. Less than 3 years ago, he led a hard-working but quiet life as a shepherd and farmer, with no great ambitions except to do his work well, marry the innkeeper's pretty daughter, and have a family. He was an intelligent kid; big, strong, handsome, gentle, honest, and faithful. With no warning or preparation, he's suddenly the Dragon Reborn with all the power and responsibility that entails, and everyone seems to forget that he's still a person as well.

Not that he, or life, has made it easy for his friends to stay friends, in many ways. Each of his childhood friends have had strange and/or unique challenges to deal with on their own, and they all allowed those things to drive them apart instead of pulling closer. It's human nature, and besides, it's necessary for the plot, but it's still sad. By the time we get to TGS, they all seem to be successfully coming to terms with their strange circumstances and abilities, and there's some movement toward understanding again. (Oddly enough, the first move seems to be coming from Nynaeve, who was much more an authority figure and less a friend back when. Hmmm. Greater maturity? She's got 5 years on the boys, 7 on Egwene...)

Still, that passage Leigh quoted...
“I do what I have to do, Perrin.” For a moment he was the old Rand, not liking what was happening. For a moment he looked tired to death. A moment only. Then he was the new Rand again, hard enough to mark steel.
That just breaks my heart. The poor kid. I wish Perrin had tried to get "the old Rand" back again... but then, he had other issues to deal with as well.
Bonnie Andrews
27. misfortuona
Rukaiya @ 22
I agree with you that Perrin for darn sure should have realized that his friend had not just dusted himself off and carried on.
The AS were too busy being freaked out by what he had done, and what they had done, and... well you all know the story, to notice aparently. More AS compassion!!!
I'm not sure that the Aiel would have even given it any great thought. The dream ends, and all that. And it isn't like there was water involved in the torture. If he had been put on a row boat and taken miles out to sea, they might have got an idea of what was going on with him.

And what wetlander said @26
Tess Laird
28. thewindrose
How about this at the end of chapter 6:
Right after the hard enough to mark steel - "I won't harm any Aes Sedai who doesn't deserve it, Perrin. I can't promise more. I wish I could let you rest longer then than a day or two, but I can't.(I must send you on the never ending plot of doom, muhahahhhaa. -Just kidding) There's no time. No time, and we must do what we must. Forgive me for interrupting you." He sketched a bow, one hand on the hilt of his sword. "Faile."
(On an aside, Faile is a lot like her mom heh.)

Perrin tried to catch his arm, but he was out of the room, the door closing behind him, before Perrin could move. Rand was not really Rand anymore, it seemed. A day or two? Where in the Light did Rand mean him to go, if not to the army gathering down on the Plains of Maredo?

(emphasis mine on the bold part) - All though one could point out the rest to do some damage to that thought;)
Darth Touma
29. dreamwalker
I wonder what "harm" Perrin thinks Rand is going to do to the Aes Sedai, given that he just noticed in the previous scene that Rand cannot bring himself to execute Colavaere?

I also like Rand's line, "Whatever can be done can be undone." Maybe just because it was emphasized in the recap, but it seems like more than a throwaway line.
Bobby Stubbs
30. Valan
Brandon Sanderson has posted "Defending Elysium" on his website for the holidays if ya'll want to check it out. Its a short story thats pretty... pretty... pretty... pretty good.
Tess Laird
31. thewindrose
dreamwalker - Exactally! I think everyone knows about Rands aversion to harming women(almost everybody?), Perrin has just watched him at DW, tring to find every women killed to commit them to his already long list(that Perrin listened to him recite!)
But maybe the thought of being with his wife has driven that out of his mind. We know what happens when he loses his wife - he thinks to save her 'above' all else. Which, if the darkside got things together could totally use. Take Faile, and you kick one leg of the traid out - game over Do wins...
32. bluecansam
About the fans, its little thoughtful nuggets like that which make me really love reading these rereads. I completely agree with the silliness of it, but then again, even during a boiling hot summer, I still love my morning mug of coffee. Also, people in LA wear Ugg boots, no matter the season. While the logic does seem like a stretch, so much of our own culture doesn’t follow logical progressions that I’m willing to suspend my disbelief.
Darth Touma
33. dreamwalker
thewindrose - "Take Faile, and you kick one leg of the traid out - game over Do wins... "

Seriously. LOL!
Tricia Irish
34. Tektonica
Leigh.... great recaps and humor. ::waves at Leigh:: Thank you and have a great holiday/Break! We'll be here when you get back.....

I loved the Colavaere chapter! "So am I loved." Great line, like M-O-M said, "it's like I've heard it before, but it's so perfect".....

And Perrin, ah Perrin....still driving me nuts. Like you guys said, why doesn't he remember that Rand can't kill women....what is that line about?..."I'll protect them from you?" WTF? Did he miss the last chapter and DW?

I've been trying to be more understanding of the Faile/Perrin relationship and plot line after the previous thread's discussions, so I am rereading them more carefully. ( I am with you 100% Leigh. I would be out the door so quickly if I had to endure the confusion and angst of a relationship like that. Yikes.)

So here is my Faile Looney Theory....

It seemed the right to put a knife in him was reserved for her.


...Perrin: if anything happened to you, I'd die Faile. I would lie down on your grave and die! ....Faile: As for you lying down on my grave, if you do, my soul will haunt yours, I promise you. You will mourn me a decent time, and then you'll find yourself another wife. Someone I'd approve of, I hope.

Is this foreshadowing? Could she put a knife in Perrin? Could Faile be "turned", 13 x 13ed? She doesn't seem to care about Rand or TG, only about Perrin and their relationship. As thewindrose@31 pointed out, if the DO knew how vulnerable Perrin was to Faile, you take her/or turn her, and voila! one leg of the triad is over.

Does Faile try to kill Perrin? (I know, this relationship would kill anyone!)Rand? Go to the darkside???? dum dum dum....tune in to Book 13 for more confusion!

Let the theories begin.....
Carolyn Goodwin
35. metacarolyn
Tektonika: Faile cannot be 13 X 13ed since she is not a channeler. Still, this could be foreshadowing of her death. BWS has mentioned that a lot of people will be dying in the next two books. Or it could be false foreshadowing just be meant to heighten the tension when she is captured. Random question: If something were to happen to Faile, would she approve of Perrin taking up with Berelain? She makes a comment at one point that they might be friends if not for the fight over Perrin.

Regarding the future Queen Elayne of Cairhien: I get that Rand wants someone he can trust, but how could Elayne be expected to rule two countries well at the same time? Especially given the current environment. I recall wondering at some point (probably before he joined up with the WC) why Galad couldn't be put on the throne instead. He's the elder Damodred, and Cairhien doesn't require a queen like Andor does.
Carolyn Goodwin
36. metacarolyn
Wow, I've never had such a low comment # before. . . Where is everybody? Surely I'm not the only one spending Friday night with my laptop again?
Sean Banawnie
37. Seanie
Faile is a walking contradiction. She is Borderlander so is familiar with and respects AS but also knows some of what they are capable of. She also knows what she wants too....remember back in Two Rivers where she threatened Alanna when she thought of bonding Perrin ? I don't think she dies in TOM although her cousin Tenobia and her parents are prime to be either killed off or DF'd .Lately , I have seen a few posts wondering about Faile with the throne in Saldea. On that...well Bashere is cool,Demira=annoying. Hmmmmmm, apples and trees, falling.....yep. But a real interesting observation--too tired to look it up right now(was on last thread from mondays post ,I think- was about how Perrin collects/attracts rulers (known and unknown) while Mat collects/attracts heroes.
Interesting.....well brain turning to mush....bedtime, I think....Happy everything back at you Leigh..even though you forgot Festivus.....
Sheesh. Enjoy your holidays.We'll try to be good.

Peace favor your mouse.
Darth Touma
38. Mrdangam
metacarolyn states: BWS has mentioned that a lot of people will be dying in the next two books.

cynic replies: they're dying to end the series! MWAHAHAHAHA
Maiane Bakroeva
39. Isilel
Rand's entrance and removal of Colvaere - I agree that it is a great scene.
Of course, the whole Andoran struggle for succession doesn't look very plausible after that, does it? Who would risk crossing the DR?

Also, I wonder what happened to her confiscated estates. Did they go to her heirs, or what? House Saighan seems to be the designated bad House like Shaido are the designated bad clan. IIRC, Sevanna's snitch in the Shaido camp in Malden is also one of them.

Re: friendship and caring about Rand as a person. Mat and Perrin dropped Rand like a hot potato when they learned that he could channel and have been obsessing about his sanity ever since.
Egwene and Nyn were much more accepting and tried to treat him as the Rand they knew for as long as they could.
Perrin did attempt to return to their friendship later, though mostly because of his sense of duty, but Faile did her worst to sabotage that - which was my original reason to hate her, not that she didn't add more as series went on ;).

Re: Faile's opinion of AS abilities - let's not forget that she has been hanging around Moiraine, who could tell that there was a FS in a city within a couple of hours and which one, dispatch a dozen of Darkhounds without much difficulty and then kill a Forsaken for an encore. Moiraine may have been able to escape from a Shaido camp and take some folks with her, too.

BTW, Jestian _Redhill_? Did Merean Redhill, the BA from New Spring come from an AS dynasty, as it were?
Also, this notion that an AS would do anything to achieve WT's goal goes directly against the haughty idiocy examplified by Kiruna and Co. And is also very much overblown, from what we have seen from the inside.
Bonnie Andrews
40. misfortuona
Isilel @ 39
I always wondered about Elayne's opposition as well. What were they thinking, at least until Rand pulled out of Caemlyn.
But then again considering the mess Morgase made of things maybe having HER daughter on the throne... No that wasn't it, at least entirely.

It was just that if any of them actually wanted that brass ring now was the only time they were likely to get it. Once a young AS was on the throne, they could expect her to stay for what... three hundred years or so?
Bonnie Andrews
41. misfortuona
Wow double posts.
I guess everyone else has something better to do, like life. :)
Loony Theory time: Re Faile’s response to the AS and her belief in their ability to do things beyond what we might expect. It’s been pointed out that she has most recently been spending time with Moraine the Wonderous, but exactly what other AS would she have been around in Saldea. The borderlanders have advisors yes, but then most recently for them they have the capture of Taim, and Logain by the reds.
Is it possible that the reds were not quite as sneaky about setting up and pulling down the false dragons as they thought? If it was known, even among a few of the nobles, then it might add to Faile’s belief in AS as puppet masters.
This idea probably has a few dozen holes but...

lift to life. No I don't think you are all spending your morning lifting ;P
Tricia Irish
42. Tektonica

Thanks for reminding me that only a channeler can be 13ed. Forgot that.

Faile could still become a DF, and I don't doubt she'd do it for Perrin's safety, or some such nonsense. I don't trust her. Her dislike of Rand, and singular focus on Perrin scares me. She is bright, and has been "royally" trained, so maybe not.....

I still think we might be seeing a foreshadowing of her death or her turning on Perrin (maybe metaphorically.) See quote@34

Like your thinking on Galad on the throne of Carhien! Perfect. Not only is he a Damodred!, but he's Rand's half brother! I would hope he could trust him. Still excited to see the meeting of those two....Rand and Galad, and then Elayne finds out she and Rand are almost related...oohooh...Rand's officially outed as a Royal.
John Massey
43. subwoofer
What?! I take a day off to work on the Bunker and we only get to the 40s? Wusses! Pansies! Nancy boys... and er girls? And Leigh is going AWOL AGAIN?! Send out the MPs. They can do the liquor run. Something has to hold us over.

"Where's Berelain?"

Of all the things on God's green earth buddy could of said, why those words? Why not "I like your hair Colavaere". Equally ridiculous but less of a chance to piss off the volatile one. Geezzzzze! And then we descend into the Slap-and-bite/ Growl-and-whine/ Scratch-and-bark routine that is Perrin and Faile. At least Faile called out Rand for his manners. I do hate it when people who are "somebodies" think that they can do whatever and societal norms do not apply.

And Rand and his amazing lack of doing what has to be done with women. Whaaaa? She dies anyways. And IIRC, Stilling an AS is as good as killing her so why wasn't he crying a river back when? Unless those women are on his list. Doubt it though.

One week from Christmas and no TOR dingle ball. Guess there is no love here. At least GCL cares! Sniff, sniff

Loial- buddy- one of my favorite scenes for him. Things are hitting the fan all around and there he is, battle axe propped up and him taking notes. Kills me every time. How could you not love the big lug:)

Tricia Irish
44. Tektonica
Sub....left a message for you on the part 3 reread thread, but you may never see it there, so, I'll repeat it here....

Is the Bunker of Solitude, your private bunker or are you open for a Festivus Party? Would Tor contribute a dingle ball for the dance floor? This is important stuff and time is running out!

And where is everyone? I know it's a busy time....I'm cleaning and decorating and baking too....but certainly you're all pondering the wonders of Randland while baking/decorating/lighting the tree??? Oh, the lights...hate the lights...
Bonnie Andrews
45. misfortuona
Metacarolyn@35 and tektonica@42
Re Galad. An excellent choice for the sun throne as long as they can convince him that Rand is not evil incarnate. That young man (Galad) is going to have some pretty major soul serching to do when he realizes that he is the DR's brother. There but for the grace of god go I syndrome maybe?
Also if he takes up with Berlain, how does this wed ruler thing work. They live together and rule one country from a distance? I suppose an AS advisor could just gate (Stargate anyone?)them from one place to the other when necessary.

Sub @43
Absolutly with you on Loial. He's just the best.
So how much solitude do you actually expect in this bunker? Can we bribe our way in with gifts, food, and booze? Just asking? And can we bring our dogs, cause my girl has been asking if she can come too?
S Diller
46. CuenDiller
Snowed in! Good thing I've got my re-read to keep me warm.

metacarolyn @ 35

Thats my point, and sounds like a good plan.
John Massey
47. subwoofer
Dunno... maybe the natives got restless and left. What's the big deal, its only Christmas. Have the family descending on me and there is no problem. I just don't sleep. Only reason bunker is called such is because some special person called my beloved country the Blight. This far north does feel like I am at the North Pole sometimes. Hence the name. Gotta ask my little Brother-in-law though. As far as I am concerned, everybody is welcome though. Don't forget the dip :)

Yes, bring your fellow pooches! Lucy needs a buddy and my other dog is dysfunctional with the whole play and socialization thing.

Almost a Faile and Berelain dynamic without the growling and barking.

Tricia Irish
48. Tektonica

I don't recall Galad ever ranting about the DR....that would be Gawyn. I know, he's a whitecloak, but he also believes that the Whitecloaks should be willing to fight with the Aes Sedai (one of which is his Sister!) for TG. I think he could get behind Rand fighting for the Light. He's really not that bad a guy, IMHO.


Where are you that you are snowed it? Just got a card from friends in Park City, with 2 feet of new snow! Hope you're in a ski area! you have an ice bar in the BOS? Hors D'oerves preferences?
Darth Touma
49. alreadymadwithGalad
Galad did warn Elayne once to stay away from Rand because he will break the world before he's done. Aside from that, it's primarily his idea to ally with anyone who will fight TG. That includes the star player for the forces of the Light, aka his unknown half-brother.
Maiane Bakroeva
50. Isilel
Misfortuona @40:

What does "pulling out" mean for a Travelling DR? He seemingly left Cahirien too, when Colvaere made her move. And AS queens have been known to come to sticky ends. Much better to wait until Rand did his Dragony thing and was no longer around and then dispose of Elayne.

Yet again, don't people see the contradiction of expecting Perrin the reluctant Emo rule over Mantheren and Saldea (!), yet claiming that Andor+Cahirien would be too much for Elayne?

And Galad? Please. Such an unbending ruler (and a Whitecloak besides) would be the worst thing that could happen to Cahirien. Elayne, with her ties to Aiel, to channelers of various stripes, etc. would be a much better choice. Cahirien is far too ravaged to survived without a lot of outside help, IMHO.
Tess Laird
51. thewindrose
Rulers of more than one country. Well, lets take a step back and consider the Seanchen. From what we know before tGS*, they have an Empress who is the absolute ruler over the whole land mass of Seanchan. And has sent over the Hailene and the Corenne to take over Randland.
So, what is two countries compared to that? (Also remember Artur Hawkwing, ruler over the whole of Randland. And who helped dissolve that Empire;))

*In tGS, we find out one way the Seanchan oversee this much land. In the 19th chapter Gambits, Tuon interviews Beslan and the result is Beslan staying/becoming King of Altara but sworn to the Seanchen Empire.
Darth Touma
52. AndrewB

Thanks for the recaps & commentaries this past year. Have a safe and healthy holiday season.

Thanks for reading my musings.
Darth Touma
53. Rukaiya

You may be right about most people not knowing what happened to Rand, but I meant to use that as an example, rather than discussing that instance specifically. It doesn't seem to occur to anyone around Rand how difficult and painful it must be for him to go from being a teenage shepherd to literally having the weight of the world on your shoulders. Not to mention being saddled with an ability that traditionally sends men mad before rotting them alive. They just expect him to transition seamlessly and get on with it.


Precisely. I just can't help wondering to what degree Rand tries to force himself to be inhuman because everyone seems to expect him to be. The moment they find out he's the Dragon Reborn, his friends all start expecting him to act completely different. He becomes the legendary figure, the Dragon, and they treat him like it. Mat drops him like a hot potato and Perrin grows more and more cautious around him. He certainly seems to expect Rand to act harder and more dangerous. Even Egwene and Nynaeve behave differently. Egwene in particular goes all in for the manipulation strategy a la the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones. Nynaeve is the only one of the Two Rivers folk who seems to regard him as the old Rand, but she is separated from him for most of the early books and thus doesn't have a chance to influence him. You're right, Wetlander, heartbreaking is the right word.

I just end up hurting for Rand more and more as the series goes on. He tries so hard.
Bill Reamy
54. BillinHI
I got nuttin' today. Rand is already too hard, Perrin is too emo, Faile is ... just Faile, I guess. I can only hope for a happy reunion for all our favorite characters after TG.

Happy Holidays to all, especially Leigh for yet another great recap, from cool (for us) but sunny (no snow, except maybe on Mauna Kea) Hawaii.
Tricia Irish
55. Tektonica
And Galad? Please. Such an unbending ruler (and a Whitecloak besides) would be the worst thing that could happen to Cahirien. Elayne, with her ties to Aiel, to channelers of various stripes, etc. would be a much better choice. Cahirien is far too ravaged to survived without a lot of outside help, IMHO.

I don't think Galad is such a stiff. I think he wants always to do "what's right".
Carhien is a mess. Their game of thrones is so corrupt, and the nobles seem so self centered, I think Galad could be good for the country. I think he's willing to entertain new ideas.....he's leading the Whitecloaks to work with the As for TG, after all. And can't he quit the Whitecloaks? If he and Berelain hook up, she'll teach him how to rule. Could work, is all I'm saying......

Wetlander26 & Rukaiya@53

I feel for Rand too. He's still one of my favorites. His character arc is extraordinary. True, he was pretty much absent from a few books, but he's baaaaack. It's so funny, but probably pretty true to real life, that his friends started treating him differently, just when he could use some reality checks from people who knew him and that he trusted. ( I suppose it's like the US when someone becomes a movie star and people treat them like they might have an opinion that's important on, well, everything. Ug. Damn press.)
Tricia Irish
56. Tektonica

I was wondering if the HI in your name was for Hawaii. Which island....say it's the Big favorite! Got it all.....9 of the 11 climate zones of the world. Have you ever skied Mauna Kea?

Happy Holidays to you too!
57. MasterAlThor

A great recap. This is the reason we keep coming back. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours.


Thanks for calling me special. My wife would agree. She would use the term "touched"

I have said it before.

"So I am loved" is one of my favorite lines. I actually used it in a conversation once. It was apprapo. I thought it came off really well.

Hey, did I see someone mention that Perrin is collecting rulers and Mat is collecting heroes?

I never noticed that before. Kowalski (Freelancer) analysis.

Edit: spelling
Alice Arneson
58. Wetlandernw
@various re: Galad on the Sun Throne... (And yes, he has as much "right" to it as Elayne, probably more since he's the elder.) Without doing a character analysis as to whether he'd be a good ruler, I had to ask: Why on earth would Rand trust him? And why would he either trust or be loyal to Rand? The first time they met, he wanted to arrest Rand for falling into the garden. Then he joined the Whitecloaks. If Rand has bothered to think about it much, he may be adjusting to the idea that Galad is his half-brother, but when you spring it on Galad I don't think it will be a warm, loving family reunion. Galad will see him first as the DR, and somewhere way behind that as a half-brother he never knew about, born after his mother abandoned him and disapppeared, fathered by an Aiel chief to whom she was not married. (And no, I wouldn't expect Galad to just shrug and say "that's the Aiel way" about it...)

I think its possible (or at least plausible) that Galad will end up ruling Cairhien, but I don't think it makes sense to expect that he and Rand will have any degree of trust for one another just because they had the same mother.

And the quietness on here... I don't know about anyone else, but I just couldn't find much to say about these chapters. I was hoping someone else could come up with something to stir up discussion, but last night I browsed and couldn't find much that was worth the energy. But that might just be me - I was pretty wiped out last night. Got my little boy, with his sensory overload issues, through his class presentation at the all-school Christmas assembly yesterday. I was so racked out by the time it was over, we came home and pretty much collapsed. But it was cool.

BTW - NOT jumping on the anti-Perrin-and/or-Faile bandwagon. I like them both. As with any character, they have their annoying bits, but I still like them. Maybe later I'll come up with a defense post for each of them. I'm with Freelancer on the "walk a mile" attitude. When you honestly consider someone's background, training and personality, you can usually at least understand why they do what they do. I think RJ was a master at creating believable characters, with backstories that make their behavior not only understandable but maybe even inevitable. But that's another post, for after I've gotten some housework done....
John Massey
59. subwoofer
I still don't get the Rand and Perrin shenanigans. Rand has issues seeing any woman harmed or dead. Perrin knows this. He witnessed the whole conflict and litany. All Rand needed was a flail and to hit himself to be something out of the Da Vinci Code. So why the "Rand, I'll stand in your way if any of the female AS come to harm" fronting. Honestly. And, as if the AS could not take care of themselves. They still manage to bust Perrin's hump after it is all said and done too. Sometimes I think his avatar should be a donkey, not a wolf.

I notice that Leigh glossed over some of the Perrin wants all to burn to save Faile bit.

@Wet- I do get the drive to get to and save someone you love bit. I have been there. I just don't like the stray plot line. By that same token, I did not like the Rand of the many wives plot line either. Focus on the things hitting the fan. It was frustrating to me in the sense that I thought, "here is something else that will keep this story from getting wrapped up in the next book or so". Get to the whoop ass already. And then the putzing around with Berelain and that whole bit on the Quest for Faile.

About the only er... romantic entanglement I could stand was the Lan and Ny one. Much of it went on behind the scenes, with occasional reflection and the whole Mat dealing with both of them was fun too.

Jonah Feldman
60. relogical
About the thoughts of Galad ruling Cairhien...

Is that even allowed? Wouldn't he have to step down as a Whitecloak to become a king? I don't see why he'd do that. He's too honorable to break his oath to the Whitecloaks, even if he would be a good ruler.
Tess Laird
61. thewindrose
relogical @60-
I don't think the Whitecloaks are going to be around after TG.
If Galad is offered the thrown, and if he accepts(two big ifs...)I think that some of the 'former' WC's will follow Galad to Cairhien and become part of Cairhiens army.
Susan Brownhill
62. SusanB
Re Galad on the throne: No one has mentioned Elayne's objections. Elayne doesn't trust Galad, & would never believe he would make a good ruler. She would oppose any attempt to crown Galad. And if Rand is still around he would support her b/c he loves & trusts her.

Leigh: thanks for the fan comment. It always bothered me that Saldea had a fan language, though I could never quite figure out why. Now I know what bothered me, the temperature.

Faile: I've always liked her (& Nyn too, I like strong women). She's the only "main" character without super powers & yet she holds her own with everyone. That takes guts & skill & is awesome. Though I could never be married to someone like her.

Perrin: I used to love him, until I started reading this blog. So many people have a negative opinion of him & have pointed out his reluctance to rule so often, that my opinion of him is changing. We'll see how I feel as I reread him again.

As for people not communicating their issues...I think its completely logical, even though its totally annoying. Imagine you just found out you have an STD (not the best analogy b/c there is no benefit to an STD, like there is to channeling or talking to wolves), how quickly would you run out & tell all of your friends about it. i think most of us would wait until it became necessary to tell someone. Which is exactly what these characters do. ALso, I think it makes sense that Perrin is wrapped up in his own life & doesn't have much concern for Rand's. That is also something that often happens in real life. How many of you know know the emotional well being of your friends? In story form, it can be annoying, but it is very realistic. IMHO
Bonnie Andrews
63. misfortuona
re Galad.
Honestly I don't think I ever gave Galad much thought. Maybe it's just that that the first look we got of him through Elayne and Gawyn stuck. On thinking about it I don't recall him ever saying anything specifically against the DR, but since he's a WC now it seems he’d be at least hesitant about welcoming the DR to the family.
Can you see it?
Galad “Elayne you’re pregnant! What were you thinking? Who’s the father? I’ll find him and force him to marry you.”
Elayne: “Well Rand’s a little busy right now with TG coming up and all. I haven’t even seen him since I got knocked up. Really I think all that needs to wait.”
Galad. “Rand! Rand Al thor? The DR is the father of your children. I’ll kill him.”
Elayne: “You can’t kill him without hurting me since I’ve bonded him. Plus you wouldn’t want to hurt Min either.”
Galad: “What’s Min got to do with it?”
Elayne: “Well she and Aviendha, she’s my Aiel sister, well we all love him and he loves us, and we’ve decided to share him. So we all bonded him. You'd have been so proud of me figuring that out.”
Galad: “Excuse me? The three of you have bonded this sheepherder and you’re going to share him?”
Elayne: “Well he isn’t exactly some sheepherder from the two rivers anymore. He is the DR, and a King, and Oh Galad this is the best part, you and he are half-brothers. Tigrane (sp?) is his mother too. Isn’t it wonderful? Galad, Galad, oh do get up you’ll get your nice white cloak dirty.”
Bonnie Andrews
64. misfortuona
Okay maybe it won't go exactly like that, but really how would you take it?
65. Lily of the Valley
Hey guys! Happy Weekend. :) Sad to hear we won't be getting another update until 2010. I saw Avatar yesterday, and all I'm going to say is 1) It was awesome, and 2) I giggled like a little girl because they totally have raken, to'raken and morat'to'raken. IMMD.

misfortuona @ 45

I imagine getting married to Galad would be a big plus for Berelain. Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light / King of Cairhien for a husband, Queen of Andor /Aes Sedai for a sister-in-law. Maybe THAT would get Tear off Mayene's back.
Bonnie Andrews
66. misfortuona
Lily of the Valley @ 45
He might even make a proper replacement for the Tavern, best friend of the DR. Yep she'd be pleased.
Jack Diamond
67. violetdancer
I finally got enough stolen signal to log in and post after several tries in the past few days. Greetings from sunny California! Shoveled a foot of snow from my driveway before I left Wyoming, but it's mid-70s here. T-shirt weather.

One thing I thought of while everyone ranted about emo Perrin. Is it possible that during his rescue of the falcon from T'A'R way back when that because he entered in the flesh (way too strong according to Hopper) he is somehow linked to Faile? I recall Moiraine commenting that there is always a connection between healer and healed when the power is used. Perhaps that small loss of self during the big rescue gives him more reason to save Faile so desperately that he ignores all else.

Also, I can't believe I missed the Herid Fel discussion in the last thread. I'll state my view here for anyone who cares.

IF...Herid Fel is indeed the wagon driver who got stuck in the ter'angreal...

And IF while inside he had contact with the Finns...

Perhaps whatever deal he made with them is why a gholam was needed to kill him?

Also I recall somewhere in a Aran'gar POV the he/she claimed to have impersonated other Forsaken. Perhaps Sammael ordering Shadowspawn into the ways? Or sending the gholam to do in Herid Fel?
Thomas Keith
69. insectoid
I agree with Wetlandernw. It's awfully quiet around here, and the spoiler thread is nearly silent...

Misfortuona @63: LOL! I can totally see that.

John Massey
70. subwoofer
Hey folks:) Up here in the Borderlands we have about 9 hours of daylight as we approach the winter solstice. Have to make hay while the sun shines, or in my case, work like a heathen on the Bunker so I am done in time for Christmas. The things I do for kids...

Galad...he is a okay guy. Will see who changes the most when he meets Berelain. Is B gonna clean up her act when she meets the pretty Galad, or is Galad gonna start er... loosening up around B? I wanna see whose moral code will be corrupted.

@VD Yay! The signal is out there. I should know, I put out enough wifi to supply the neighborhood, thankfully I have encryption though.

I dunno if Perrin is linked to Faile. I think his mindset is enough. Hopper has hinted at being too strong in the Dream and pushing the bounds... something about foolish cubs. Maybe Perrin is on the verge of what Rand did in stepping into the Dream in the flesh. Conversely, that also might be a way to get through the Tower of Ghenjei. Things may work different in the Dream and maybe that is a way of taking more than 3 people to rescue Moiraine.

James Cameron still owes me over 4 hours of my life for Titanic.

Must walk the dog, but I figure somewhere around Tuesday I will have time to post like a champion.

john mullen
71. johntheirishmongol
@22 Have to say thats a decent point but after being healed pretty quickly after the battle and laughing with Min a scene later, the others may not totally have realized what Rand went thru from the SAS.

Someone said that Faile should have kicked Berelains butt, but she tried that once and got her ass handed to her. She may be good with knives but Berelain has better overall training.
Besides, Berelain was covering for Perrin being missing, so that no one would panic that Rand wasn't around, and Faile should have known that.

The whole Perrin/Faile dynamic is one where there is enough blame on both sides to annoy. Perrin's emo, Faile's jealousy, Perrin's avoidance, Faile's's all too much.

The "so am I loved" line is one that I have heard before...seemingly I remember it from a historical movie, maybe Lion in Winter with Henry talking about his sons.
Thomas Keith
72. insectoid
Sub @70: Berelain has a moral code? Okay, so I think it's more likely that Galad will "loosen up" than Berelain "clean up". IMO.

Say... where's Freelancer? That might explain the unusual quietness around here.

Alice Arneson
73. Wetlandernw
insectoid @72 - Berelain has a moral code? LOL!!

re: Freelancer... don't forget it's the weekend before Christmas. I'm betting he's pretty busy between family and church activities, and also that he knows perfectly well that he's got until January to catch up on this round.
John Massey
74. subwoofer
Well... I didn't say that Berelain had a strong or even ethical moral code...

Julian Augustus
75. Alisonwonderland
Re: friendship and caring about Rand as a person. Mat and Perrin dropped Rand like a hot potato when they learned that he could channel and have been obsessing about his sanity ever since.

Mat, particularly. He has never acted like a true friend should act towards Rand. Which is why I've never entirely gotten over my dislike of him picked up in the first two books. I know he is the favourite character of many fans, and his story arcs are better to read than most, but to me Mat has never cared for his friend Rand as a person, and I find it hard to like a character who would treat his friend that way.
Julian Augustus
76. Alisonwonderland
I think its possible (or at least plausible) that Galad will end up ruling Cairhien, but I don't think it makes sense to expect that he and Rand will have any degree of trust for one another just because they had the same mother.

Galad, though, has demonstrated pretty conclusively that he places family ties above all else (including his oaths as a whitecloak). I would think that if he realizes Rand is his younger brother his attitude would change towards helping Rand and fighting Rand's enemies (Asunawa and his questioners for one). On Rand's part, I would be really surprised, post-Dragonmount epiphany, if he treats his only blood relative in the world with suspicion and hostility, especially if he realizes Galad wants to be an older brother to him.
James Jones
77. jamesedjones
58 Wetlandernw

Re: Rand's objections to Galad

I dunno. Rand might be good at Daes Dae'mar, but he's not really a fan. Putting someone on the Sun Throne that would set doing what's right above everything else might be appealing to Rand.

On the other hand, it might throw the collective world into utter chaos. But that could be fun, too.
John Massey
78. subwoofer
Mat in many ways is a reluctant hero like Perrin. He "is no bloody lord". And he is linked to Rand via the tav'ereness. Mat did go to "fetch" Elayne and save Eggy. That is what lead him on his current escapade. He is doing as Rand asked, his methods are just a little er... morally questionable.

Think of it like when Mat was healed and was asked to carry a letter to Morgase or when Mat saved the ladies from the Black Ajah in Tear. The women wanted to beat him soundly about the head, but he did do what needed to be done in the end.

Julian Augustus
79. Alisonwonderland
IF...Herid Fel is indeed the wagon driver who got stuck in the ter'angreal...

Where did that thought come from? I can't imagine how a youngish (he can't be too old if he is engaged in the physical labor of lifting the doorway ter'angreal and carrying it about), possibly darkfriend (by association with Adnan Kadere), wagon driver can be confused with dreamy, absent-minded professor Fel. I've seen that connection made on this board before, but I can't recall who made it or in what context.
Darth Touma
80. FellKnight
alisonwonderland @ 75

On my first read-through (when there were only 7 books out), I felt the same. I was a huge fan of Perrin (I still am, though I really wish he would do something, ANYTHING).

The problem is that while Rand, Map and Perrin are all said to be "friends" in tEotW, it simply doesn't ring true to me. Rand spent almost all of his time at his farm, and Mat got into a bunch of trouble in town. Even when they got together, they sometimes played pranks, but I never got the impression that Mat thought of Rand as anyone special to him. I always thought that Mat and Ewan Finnegar were far better friends.

So I don't think that Mat's reactions to Rand in the first two books are at all out of character, and that's not even beginning to factor in the tainted influence of the Ruby Dagger.

81. Freelancer
"So am I loved" - Has nobody here seen Gladiator?

Paul Atreides says something along the same lines, though with a slightly different context.

I feel I should pay Wetlandernw as my RP rep. Yes, Christmas is a busy time of year for me. Church choir, other church activities, family in and out, year end week at work, and playing long-distance logistician to keep my daughter on schedule going up the east coast during all of that global warming they are having. Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to finish my shopping. Of course that will also require starting it.


The theory popped up when folks were looking for names used more than once. Herid is the name of the wagondriver, and since he fell halfway through the doorway while trying to load it in Rhuidean, some thought it too much of a coincidence, that this must be the man we later know as Herid Fel. Looney off the deep end. Herid Fel had been a philosopher and scholar for decades, wouldn't have been gallavanting around with a darkfriend wagon team. And the Herid in Rhuidean had no time to be making any deals with the 'Finn there, it was no more than a handful of seconds before Lan yanked him out by his belt.
Tess Laird
82. thewindrose
I think when the dynamic trio were young(before going of with Moiraine), they did a lot of things together. I believe they all recall fondly when they went off to the Mountains of Mist together.
In tEotW we only get to see them together for one day before the trollocs attack, the next day they are running for their lives with Mo and Lan. One of the reasons you are remembering Ewin, who is around 3-4 years younger then our triad, is he likes making trouble, like Mat. And if Mat isn't to blame its Ewin. Mat also like to trick Ewin,(the dogs covered in flour) and Ewin may look up to Mat as a roll model(yikes:).
I haven't read it/them, but there are (one or two?) YA novels out about the Two Rivers when the characters were quite young, and here is where you would probably see more of how deep their friendship is.

jamesedjones - We do have someone watching you at all times-On the other hand, it might throw the collective world into utter chaos. But that could be fun, too.
Your liberal use of Chosen and love of chaos is quite the red flag;)

subwoofer - nice try, you live in the Blight, that is why you need the bunker. I actually think of your bunker as something akin to the Eye of the World;)

There is a Herid the dark friend and Herid Fel the philosopher.(Links will take you to the Wot Character website)
Darth Touma
83. the zedmeister
FellKnight @ 80

I completely agree with you. No matter how much time they may or may not have spent together as kids, I never got the feeling that Mat cared for Rand any more than he would for any acquaintance. I certainly never got the feeling that they were close.
Darth Touma
84. the zedmeister
Although I should note that that doesn't stop me from disliking him for his behaviour towards Rand, like Alisonwonderland.

I don't like Mat in general - I find him annoying and selfish, a person who occasionally ends up doing the right thing for the wrong reasons - but if I missed the point and he's supposed to be Rand's *friend*, then his behaviour towards Rand makes me dislike him even more.

I don't think that finding out that Rand can channel is enough to justify his instant distancing from him (not to mention the previous jealousy and open dislike) even if they were just amicable acquaintances. To me, it's on a level with finding out that someone you know has AIDS and telling them you want nothing more to do with them.
Bill Reamy
85. BillinHI
Tektonica @56: It was almost Big Island (we had land over there for years) but we wound up staying on Oahu in Makaha Valley (just over a mile from Makaha Beach) because we found a place we could afford even after I retired. Never skied anywhere, let alone Mauna Kea - too much of a klutz and I couldn't take the altitude anymore. I found I was somewhat short of breath on Haleakala at only(!) 10,000 feet. What with the vog on the Big Island these days, I'm glad to be where we are.

subwoofer @59: Re Rand/Perrin shenanigans: is it possible they have already hatched their plot to have Rand throw Perrin (literally!) out of Cairhien? It's only a day or two before that showpiece takes place, right?
Jack Diamond
86. violetdancer
Hey's my looney off the deep end theory, and I'll stick to it until Brandon Sanderson proves me wrong, the last book is printed or the fat lady sings. There's nothing so far in books 1-12 that says the two Herids are not one and the same. No contradictory physical description or age on the DF Herid, no POV, nada. So I'll just have to wait to RAFO. (Freelancer, I was under the impression that Finn time was different than Rand time.)

It's unlikely I'll ever get to book signing or get to meet any of the wonderful people who are in the know, but if anyone cares to pose a question to Sanderson I'd be grateful. Is Herid the DF the same person as Herid Fel the Philosopher?

Here's hoping one and all have happy, healthy and safe holidays, and thanks for all your thoughtful replies. It's ok, blast away. I have very thick skin!
Ron Garrison
87. Man-0-Manetheran
@71 johntheirishmongol
Peter O’Toole, Lion in Winter: yeah, I could see that. The line definitely has a deja vu quality.

@75 Alisonwonderland
Mat “has never acted like a true friend should act towards Rand.” “Mat has never cared for his friend Rand as a person “ Huh? What? Are we reading the same books? As a guy who grew up in a small, small rural town, their friendship never had a false note to my ears.
Tricia Irish
88. Tektonica

Hysterical! Your voice sounded just like Elayne... so matter of fact, you silly.
Loved it.

I, personally, agree with Alisonwonderland@76, I think Galad does place family above all else. I get the feeling he only fell for the Whitecloaks because he didn't like the AS/Elaida thing and wanted to do something positive. (Little did he know what an evil stew he was about to imbibe, and now he's taking out the bad guys in the WCs.) I think he'll be OK with the DR being his 1/2 bro. Shocked perhaps, at first, but he'll handle it.

Gawyn will be much weirder about it, as he doesn't believe Nynaeve and his sister YET about Rand not killing his mother. Duh. Wait til he finds out about the babies! whooooo........

Various: I think the guys are great old friends. Guys bond by "doing" things with each other. They don't "talk" to each other. There's always metaphoric pissing contests, like Rand and Perrin have in this reread. They seem to relate to each other like normal "guys" do, in my observation of the real world.....not that this is ideal.....

I've got to defend Mat here too. He is a rascal and selfish, but he can be a gentleman too. He always comes through, in spite of his reservations about a battle, or the women's insults, or Rand's requests. He grumbles, but he has always done the right thing. (Yeah, he's my favorite....flawed but fun.)

::waves:: Nice to hear from you. Yes, very busy time....pant pant...we'll all be able to breathe a bit easier next Saturday....
And thanks for the Gladiator nudge! Love that film. I remember the scene now...

We have friends that just retired to Oahu also. They like the Big Island but the Vog convinced them otherwise, as well. They were both in the Air Force in Oahu, years ago, and just loved it there and had to come back.
89. birgit
I haven't read it/them, but there are (one or two?) YA novels out about the Two Rivers when the characters were quite young, and here is where you would probably see more of how deep their friendship is.

There are no separate novels, but the YA edition of the first half of TEotW has a new prologue about young Egwene.

Re Rand/Perrin shenanigans: is it possible they have already hatched their plot to have Rand throw Perrin (literally!) out of Cairhien? It's only a day or two before that showpiece takes place, right?

They just arrived in Cairhien. They make the plan after Perrin tells Rand that he doesn't want to go with the army in this chapter.
Darth Touma
90. the zedmeister
Man-0-Manetheran @87 - So you would treat your friends the way Mat treats Rand?
Ron Garrison
91. Man-0-Manetheran
zedmeister - not getting into an argument. I said what I said.
Darth Touma
92. the zedmeister
Man-0-Manetheran - All right. I'll admit I took your "Huh? What? Are we reading the same books?" a little personally.
93. Freelancer
I believe that the truth regarding Mat falls somewhere between the two extremes represented in recent posts. I'm not a huge Mat fan either, I partly agree with the zedmeister that he is selfish and irresponsible, and he does freak out big time when he learns Rand can channel.

However, I also remember their trip from Whitebridge to Caemlyn. Two young men who weren't exceptional friends would never have survived what they did on that journey and remained together. Even in light of Mat's twisting due to the dagger, he was true blue when the pressure was on. I just wish he had killed Mili Skane there in that stable.
craig thrift
94. gagecreedlives
Hey Peeps just checking in to wish everybody a happy and safe festive season. See you next year Leigh.

“So am I loved,” Rand said softly. He hardly sounded himself.

Great line. Im sure I have it heard it somewhere outside of the movies though.


A really good point. If there ever was a dude that needed to sit down with his boys, have a few drinks and discuss life its Rand. Or even just a night out dicing with Mat to relax would do.


If Mat twisted by the dagger still didnt kill Mili Skane after she tried to stab him it just gives up a further example on how deep the Two Rivers culture about not harming women goes.
Some Person
95. The Ninth Horse
"Don't move," he said. "I'll use this if you move. Believe me, I will. " She nodded slowly; her eyes never left Mat's dagger.

Rand saw the sudden tightening of Mat's eyes, the tightening of his hand on the dagger. "Mat, no!"

"She tried to kill me, Rand. She'd have killed you, too. She's a Darkfriend." Mat spat the word.

"But we're not," Rand said. The woman gasped as if she had just realized what Mat had intended. "We are not, Mat."

Seems to me more like the issue was killing a human at all, not specifically a woman. (Of course, this is after Rand, unawares, kills a bunch of men.)

(Why was she particularly afraid of dying here? Doesn't she know that being an assassin is a good way to find an early grave?)
Ron Garrison
96. Man-0-Manetheran
And to all a goodnight...

As we slip slowly into the longest night of the year, remember the Wheel turns.

Tomorrow we celebrate the return of the Light.
Tricia Irish
97. Tektonica
The Ninth Horse@95

I think Mili was afraid because she recognized the dagger as being from Shadar Logath. IIRC, it is a very ugly, painful way to go....where did we see it?
Blackening, I making this up?

Doesn't she turn up later in Camelyn with a different name, trying to kill Elayne? And before that torturing an AS in, oh damn, what city? It's where we pick up Noel/Jain.....better go dig out the books, or hit Theoryland.....sorry about the memory....see loss of memory theory, reread 3 thread @325. And I'm not even drinking! Arrrrgh.
Alice Arneson
98. Wetlandernw
Okay, since I don't have anything pressing at the moment, I'm going to weigh in on the Rand/Mat/Perrin friendship thing. Obviously this is my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, but of course I'm right. ;)

And now, after I composed the beginnings of a Great Wall of Text, it's been deleted because I found the best quote of all, from The Eye of the World, Chapter 1, An Empty Road:
...and once he had even gone to the very foot of the Mountains of Mist, him and his closest friends, Mat Cauthon and Perrin Aybara.
So that answers that part. Note that we have the names of a bunch of other guys that were part of the same age group and were probably all his friends, but Mat & Perrin were "closest." (And I just have to say it... Ewin is four years younger, and the next chapter makes it quite clear that Mat sees him primarily as a target for pranks, when he bothers to notice him at all.)

That said, and my post up at #26 notwithstanding, I have to defend Perrin and Mat for their apparent withdrawal from Rand when they learn he can channel - and that he's the Dragon Reborn. Remember that they don't have our advantage of suspended disbelief; they've grown up on the knowledge of what happens with men who can channel, that the Dragon broke the world once, and that his rebirth means the end of the world as they know it. The stories also imply that the Dragon will destroy everything all over again.

First, the "your friend has AIDS" analogy isn't all that apt. A man who can channel isn't just ill, or even terminally ill with a wasting disease. He's got Power to do things most people can't, and he's going to go insane in the worst way. And no one knows how soon that will happen. Do you really want to be around when a guy goes crazy paranoid, and he's a guy who can throw lightning around, make a sword out of nothing and chop everything to bits with it, pick you up and throw you across the room? Not so much, I'm thinking.

Second, they get separated for long stretches, and every time they get back together they have each gone farther from the guys that grew up together. In the first book, Perrin gets separated from the other two, so Rand & Mat go on, first with Thom and then by themselves. And they are pretty incredible with looking out for each other, really. Rand gets channeling sickness, and Mat starts being affected by the SL dagger, but they stay together and help each other along anyway. Each gives the other plenty of reason to dump him and leave, but they don't. They look out for each other by turn, and eventually they get back together. (See Freelancer @93) After Falme, though, they pretty much get split up and (with the exception of Mat staying with Rand from Tear through Cairhien) only see one another briefly.

During those times of separation, they all go through some pretty crazy stuff. They all change, independently from one another, and you can't go back. Still, sometimes I would dearly love to lock them in a room and make them talk:

You - Mat. Start talking. What's happened to you?

Uh... Shadar Logoth. Dagger. Horn. Aes Sedai. Healing. Luck. Rescue. Eelfinn. Rhuidean. Aelfinn. Death. Memories. Ashandarei. The Band of the Red Hand. Tylin. Aes Sedai. Gholam. Tuon. Marriage. Prince of Ravens...????? Visions of these other two jokers...

Okay, Perrin. Your turn. What's happened?

Well... Wolves. Whitecloaks. Tinkers. Dreams. Faile. Berelain. Trollocs. Myrddraal. Scouring of the Two Rivers. Family dead. Lord Perrin Goldeneyes?? Aes Sedai. Marriage. Dumai's Wells. Alliandre. Masema. Shaido. Rescue. Visions of these other two jokers...

Rand, how about you? What's happened to you in the last three years?

Hmmm. Not much. Just coping with being the Dragon Reborn... Channeling. Forsaken. Duty. Governing. Eelfinn. Rhuidean. Memories. Duty. Forsaken. Voice in my head. Governing. Bonding. Bargains. Women. Love. Duty. Forsaken. Dizziness. Boxes. Cleansing. Governing. Bonding. Bonding. Bonding. Forsaken. Lost a hand. Voice in my head. Dreams. Visions of these other two jokers.

Okay, guys. So. Not much happening, then? Anybody want a beer?

And speaking of the Great Wall of Text... uh... yeah...
Thomas Keith
99. insectoid
Free @81: I understand. I've pretty much worn myself ragged with that shopping, driving around, decorating, why-won't-this-%@#&ing-model-train-go thing.

Wet @98: LOL! I love it.

Tess Laird
100. thewindrose
Please save me.... I just got back from the Mall of America.
And I beat sub to 100?
Some Person
101. The Ninth Horse
I think Mili was afraid because she recognized the dagger as being from Shadar Logath.
I don't know why she would recognize the dagger. She might have felt the evil aura from it (though I got the impression that was more imagined after realizing what it was), but the quote implies she only really became that concerned after Rand's and Mat's discourse.

Doesn't she turn up later in Camelyn with a different name, trying to kill Elayne? And before that torturing an AS in, oh damn, what city?
Lady Shiaine, Ebou Dar
Thomas Keith
102. insectoid
Wind @100: Just knock on the bunker door and give Amalisa the password. Ummm...what is this week's password??

craig thrift
103. gagecreedlives

"I think Mili was afraid because she recognized the dagger as being from Shadar Logath. IIRC, it is a very ugly, painful way to go....where did we see it?
Blackening, I making this up?"

Nope you can relax your not making it up. IIRC we have only seen it twice. Once in tGH when Mat stabs the seanchan and later Fain uses it in Far Madding to kill Kisman.

And personally I dont think Mili was afraid. She is just being a very good actress and trying to do a bit of a damsel in distress routine.


Just reading that made me grin in anticipation of all the possible MoA's when the boys all get back together. Personally I am really hoping for Mat to meet back up with Abell or even Bode. That could be fun.
Tricia Irish
104. Tektonica

Great summary of 12 books! There will be some good meetings and tying up of threads in the last two books. We could do some fantasizing about the various MOA.....

The Ninth Horse@101 & Gagecreedlives@103

Thank you both for filling in my blanks! Yes, Ebou Dar, thank you! And you've resurrected my memories of the deaths of the Seanchan guy during the duels in Falme, yes? And the killing of Kisman in Far Madding....scary ugly.
Bad dagger. Evil dagger.
Bonnie Andrews
105. misfortuona
See I can be lazy. If I wait a while, I know I can count on people like Freelancer @81 and Wetlandernw@98 To say everything I've been thinking.
I really can't wait to read all the reunion scenes. Wet did an excellent job of portraying exactly (if slightly condensed) what I'd expect from these guys if they would just get together for an afternoon.
Someone should suggest they go fishing.

On that note I'm going to wish you all the best of the season,since I don't expect any time to post until next weekend. We were organized (ROFL) enough to have both our kids birthdays and our anniversary between now and the new year.
Thank you Leigh, and to all of the regular posters who have made the last month or so a little more interesting and God Bless.
Julian Augustus
106. Alisonwonderland
Their travails together on the road to Caemlyn is not at issue. They were supposed to be friends, and they acted as friends. Rand, at least was a true friend. He stayed by Mat even when Mat's behavior deteriorated markedly due to the taint from the dagger. At the time,neither of them knew Rand was a channeler.

This particular discussion started when Isilel remarked that Mat and Perrin dropped Rand like a hot potato when they learned he could channel. From that point on, Mat has not, of his own free will, wanted to be anywhere near Rand. And he has maintained that attitude in his behavior and his thoughts to the present. And that is a friend? You learn that your best friend has acquired impossible power that will also make him go mad some time in the future, and all you can think about is how quickly you can get away from him, right now?

There was one conversation between them in tGH when Mat was, as usual riding Rand about putting on airs like a lord and being too big for his breeches and what does he keep hanging around them for. When Rand confessed that he is staying only until they can find the dagger to heal Mat and then he will take off, Mat is gobsmacked that Rand is staying because of him! The obvious implication is that, had the roles been reversed, Mat would not have stayed to help Rand. The fact is, Rand has always thought and acted as if Mat was his friend. Mat, not since tGH.

There is no disputing the fact that in all the times we've seen Mat's thoughts about Rand, not once has he shown that he cares about Rand as a person and the burden he (Rand) has to bear. In every single thought, he (Mat) is only concerned about not being around when Rand goes crazy. Contrast that with Perrin who also knows that Rand will go crazy in the future, but stays anyway because he realizes Rand is his friend and needs help right now.
Sam Mickel
107. Samadai

You are blatantly leaving out the whole build up to that section, where Rand insults Perrin and Mat tells them he doesn't need them, so he can go off by himself ans live alone. Then the part where Mat doesn't let Perrin or him listen to Rand long enough to accept an apology because Mat has has his feelings hurt by one of his BEST friends. Most people only think about those they are close to.

Think about it this way. How much time do you spend thinking about people who aren't really close friends? a lot of time? If you are like most I doubt it.

I'm not trying to flame you or cause an argument between us. I just don't see that Mat is not a close friend of Rand
lanyo lanyo
108. lanyo
Of course Mat and Rand are friends. Mat is scared of Rand, and @107, feels like Rand ditched him. Agreed, you don't sit around thinking about people you dislike, only those you are bff or those you hate more than is healthy.
Also, this re-cap, Rand comes back to town and scares the pants off everyone, Perrin and Faile make me tired, and not much else.

Have a nice break Leigh!
Alice Arneson
109. Wetlandernw
Alisonwonderland @106 - If you wish, you can attribute all the times Mat stays with or helps Rand to the ta'veren pull, particularly if you happen to dislike Mat anyway. I certainly won't argue that Mat has any overt desire to stay around anyone who channels the OP, male or female; for whatever reason, it gives him the serious heebie-jeebies and he wants to be as far as possible from it at all times.

(BTW, it's funny that you speak of Perrin as the one who stays with Rand... he's the one who is elsewhere the most. From Falme on, there's one winter, all off-screen, where Perrin stays with Rand, Moiraine & co. in the mountains while Mat gets hauled off to Tar Valon for Healing. After that (beginning of Book 3)this is what you get: They all meet in Tear, where Perrin stays for about 20 days before he goes off to rescue the TR; Mat stays with Rand for the next two books. Perrin joins Rand at Dumai's Wells and stays with him for a whole 5 days, then goes off on the Masema/Alliandre/Shaido plot and hasn't yet seen Rand again as of the end of TGS.)

Speaking for myself, I've always read Mat as one of those people who conciously think of themselves one way, even while they often act completely different than they think. RJ has lots of characters who do that, but here we're talking about Mat, so... He likes to think of himself as a gambler, a free-wheeler, fun-loving and irresponsible and maybe rather a "bad boy" type who looks out for himself first. When it doesn't matter, he pretty much lives it out, but when there's something serious on the line, he comes through in very selfless ways again and again, doing what he believes is right regardless of what he conciously tells himself.

As to your statement "There is no disputing the fact that in all the times we've seen Mat's thoughts about Rand, not once has he shown that he cares about Rand as a person and the burden he (Rand) has to bear." I won't dispute it at the moment because I personally don't have all of Mat's POVs memorized just yet, but I will maintain that sometimes actions speak louder than words, even words spoken to oneself. As I go through my own reread, I'll try to keep you in mind so that when I find the points on which to "dispute" I can point them out to you. ;)

You did see the winky-face, didn't you? I have no real desire to start a flame-war over Mat... ;) ;) ;)
craig thrift
110. gagecreedlives

“He stayed by Mat even when Mat's behavior deteriorated markedly due to the taint from the dagger. At the time,neither of them knew Rand was a channeler.”

I think that’s a bit of a two way street there. Although we don’t have a Mat PoV I imagine the urge to just cut and run because it would of made life easier for him would have been large but he stuck around to look after his friend. Even overcomes his outright hatred of strangers to go hunt down the local midwife.

“There was one conversation between them in tGH when Mat was, as usual riding Rand about putting on airs like a lord and being too big for his breeches and what does he keep hanging around them for. When Rand confessed that he is staying only until they can find the dagger to heal Mat and then he will take off, Mat is gobsmacked that Rand is staying because of him!”

This was after Rand had intentionally antagonised both Mat and Perrin to drive them away. Looks like he was more successful than he thought.

And Perrin did suggest to Rand when they found out that he could channel that he go far away from any people. Both of them slept as far away from Rand when they found out.

Don’t forget the heroic stuff Mat has done for his friends. He will grizzle and bitch about it but he will do it.

*edit* I see others beat me too it. I intend no flame war either ;). Just bored at work
Jay Dauro
111. J.Dauro
Violetdancer @ 86

Tried to look at the timeline. The number in parenthesis is the sequential days in the story, from the WOT timeline.

August 12 (507) Herid falls into the twisted doorway.

August 31 (526) Rand’s party emerges from the Jangai Pass. Herid leaves the train.

September 10 (536) The Battle of Cairhien.

September 21 (547) Rand leaves Cairhien , this appears to be the last time he is in Cairhien before he returns in November.

November 6 (593) Rand goes to Cairhien and then visits Herid Fel. It is at least the second time.

So Herid the Wagon Driver would have to have left the train at the Jangai Pass, traveled to Cairhien, gotten through the Shaido (or waited for Rand to defeat the Shaido], and established himself at Rand’s school in under 65 days, and probably in under 20 days. And IIRC, Idrien wants some idea that he is already a scholar before supporting him.

Although there may be nothing in the books to say no, I believe the timeline pretty much makes it unlikely.
John Massey
112. subwoofer
Hello folks, the weather has gone a bit sideways here, I believe it is a balmy 0°F here. There were a few hitches in my building plans that have set me back a few days... first off, frozen ground is still tough to conquer, even with a power auger. Second, my OG plan of assembling most of the bunker in my heated garage then doing final assembly has gone sideways as the thing is really £¶¡¢??? heavy. Having to make it way more modular is taking time. Lastly, its cold out there folks. And I'm brown. Plop me in the tropics, I survive. North here are for the crazy nordic Scandinavian people that thrive in this stuff.I tool around on my Arctic Cat. That's it.

Mat... Matty Mat Mat. Guy's got a pair. As Wet said, he is a typical anti hero. He says he is no lord, yet the more he says it, the more the opposite turns out to be true. He says he is no hero, yet he has a massive army following him loyally because they believe in him and his luck. Look at the way Tuon saw him in the true light for the first time...
A lion stuffed into a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion of the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now.

Mat may grumble and drink and dice and do a few other things that may seem less than virtuous, but at the end of the day, he helps Rand, does what is asked of him, even though it puts him in harms way, gives him a limp, saddles him with a kid, a wife and now he is gonna go through hell's half acre to rescue a woman he supposedly doesn't like. I feel that Mat's actions speak volumes. His motives may be questionable, but stuff gets done.

Funny, went in search of the book for a quote, came across a western and had to plow through it then find my quote. This post actually took me 4 hours to do.

John Massey
114. subwoofer
As far as favorite characters, I believe I have given my personal list, but they tend towards the everyman, the person without the splinky powers, but still gets stuff done, or is just plain cool.
1. Lan
2. Uno
3. Bela- tell me this horse does not deliver. USPS should be this efficient.
4. Hopper- died for what he believed in, still putting his fur on the line.
5. Loial
6. Rhuarc and most of the bad ass Aiel
7. Thom
8. Birgitte
9. Bashere- would kill me if he was DF.
10. Mat

Thomas Keith
115. insectoid
Hmm, maybe this week's bunker password is "Icicle"?

My attempts at humor seem to be falling flat. Maybe we should compose some WoT parodies of holiday songs, or something.

Sub @114: If you had Bela, you could start your own shipping company, ZPS--Zooming Pony Service! ;)

John Massey
116. subwoofer
@Insectoid- yup, u betcha! Don't worry about the audience chiming in, its a tough crowd out there. If it is any condolence, I was gonna laugh, but my hands were so cold they hurt when I used them to type.

Merry Christmas

Darth Touma
117. BenM
I just picked up one thing from the re-read that I never noticed before. Probably doesn't mean much of anything, but interesting nonetheless. The BROKEN CROWN (of Cairhien, temporarily broken, fixed again by Rand) in the same room with Perrin. That could theoretically fulfill Min's vision. (I know, that's probably not it, crown of Saldea, etc. etc. Or her vision could have multiple meanings.)

Re: Mat

I agree that Mat got a bit of a bum rap. He had a lot of growing up to do, even by Mat standards. He was just a troublemaking little brat farmboy. True, he's a degenerate drinker / gambler later, but as others have pointed out, he has his own sense of honor and duty, and he does behave honorably when the chips are down. Anyway, he was still not much grown up, as I said even by Mat standards, there was the dagger, Rand acting superior, finding out that he's the boogeyman - a figure of evil, as they believe The Dragon to be, and a super dangerous future madman. How exactly would you EXPECT Mat to act, especially back then? Even later, Rand's TDR in truth, an important figure who doesn't have a ton of time for reminiscing with old friends, who just callously sends them on their way to the next place he needs to use them. Rand does what he has to do, but still. Even then, Mat works with Rand, and does go down to head up Rand's diversion, and then later goes at Rand's request to Salidar.

Can we cut the guy a little slack, hm?
Thomas Keith
118. insectoid
Sub @116: Understood. I hope your new bunker has a good heater!

::sniff:: I'm still laughing at that video... ;D

Darth Touma
119. alreadymadwithfingar
FellKnight @80
That's because Ewan Fingar looked up to the three of them with the hero worship a younger boy typically reserves for those who are older and have gotten into more trouble than him. Unfortunately, by the time we are introduced to them, each are progressively being introduced to a trade. Rand as shepherd/winemaker, Perrin as blacksmith, Mat as gambler/horsebreeder/troublemaker. If you'll look through Nynaeve and Egwene's POV's though, most of their memories of one getting into trouble also involved at least one of the other two. And then there's the liberal sprinkling of each one referring to the other two as being better with girls.
Tina A
120. Tinaa
I'm not going to get much of a chance to read through the threads between now and the New Year, so I'll take this chance to say...

God Bless, Merry Christmas (or simply enjoy the day - however you celebrate), and a safe and happy holiday season to you all where-ever you are.
Tricia Irish
121. Tektonica
Sub@112, 113, 114, 116

Thanks for the memories....sung to the tune of, well, thanks for the memories....

112: Good Matty defense! Thank you.
113: Thanks for sharing that lovely picture. What city is that in the tundra?
114: Nice list of good guys.
116: Very funny! *Gives vulcan greeting sign.*

Don't freeze together out there in the tree/or garage. Your timing was really bad for this project!

Insectoid@115: I always think your funny.....and you're always smart. ZPS, LOL.

wetlandernw@109: Thanks for the most cogent defense of my man, Mat.
He always comes through and his grumbling is part of the act. I know this guy.....I think I'm married to him.

Since we're not getting any new rereads for a couple of weeks, I'm going to try to spend more time in the 13thD and theoryland to see if I can't be more "insightful". Thanks to you all for deepening my appreciation of these tomes,
great discussions, and new sources for research and facts.

Thank you, Leigh, for your insights and humor! What fun.

Merry Christmas all, or whatever day you are celebrating. Off to wrap packages and clean up the decorating mess.....maybe a New Year's dance party in the bunker?
John Massey
122. subwoofer
@tech- I'm in! I'll bring the bundt cake:) Maybe spike the punch too, just don't tell anyone;) Ahhhh... was not nec planning on building said bunker now, was thinking of procrastinating until spring, but the kid has horrible timing for deciding to remember things I may of said. I was aiming towards the lines of a few games for his Wii. Something cheap and less back breaking.

Insightful, yes... Well, technically, I got nuthin'. That being said, the Chargers won, Saints lost and I am holding my breath to see playoff implications.

WoT related...
Perrin was there, and Mat Cauthon, just as Wil had said, and some other boys about the same age, all with their shirts unlaced and sweaty. There was Dav Ayellin, and Lem Thane , Ban Crawe and Elam Dowtry. And Rand, a skinny boy, almost as tall as Perrin, with hands and feet that were too big for his size. He could always be found with Mat or Perrin sooner or later. Rand , who everybody said she would marry one day.

..."I'd like to be a king," Rand was saying. "That's what I'd like to be."

..."A king of sheep!" Mat hooted. He was smaller than the others, always bouncing on his toes. One glance at his face, and you knew he was looking for mischief. He always looked for mischief. And usually found it. "Rand al'Thor, King of the Sheep."

..."It's better than saying you want to run off and never have to work," Rand said mildly. He never seemed to get angry. Not that she had seen, anyway. "How could you live without working, Mat?"
..."I'll rescue an Aes Sedai, and she'll reward me," Mat shot back.

-Ch. Ravens, From the Two Rivers.

That came from nowhere and knowing what we do now, was heavy with foreshadowing.

@Tech... here is the before picture-

er... before the feet of snow and freezing temperatures.

Was thinking that WoT had global warming and RJ equated it with the DO's touch. We may have global warming, I've yet to experience it personally, but hey, I'm no scientist. I believe all the scientists are frozen in Copenhagen due to the blizzard that hit Europe. Not that I am a big advocate, but maybe a little of the DO touch here...


Tess Laird
123. thewindrose
subwoofer @113-
Nice picture of the Blight - I think I see two of the Forsaken in the picture - good intel. (Maybe Mesaana and Demandred)

Insectoid - you always bring good humor. I logged in to catch up after my MOA trip ::shudder::, logged out and had a few Tom & Jerry's - and went to sleep. Feel much better now:)

Oh, and I found this song - good times!!!
John Fitzingo
124. Xandar01
@86 violetdancer

I love the loony Herid (Fel) theory. It does seem to make some sense despite the timeline presented by J.Dauro (111). The only thing that would make me say nay, is I don't recall any sort of recognition from Rand. That could be overlooked for a few reasons possibly, but it definitely would be interesting to know.
John Massey
125. subwoofer
@Wind- ?! Interesting holiday music selection. May get out my accordion and break into polka;) I think you are cut off now... too much brandy has done something. I dunno, have to do heavy labor n a bit with power tools, otherwise I may partake in a T&J sans eggnog. Sounds like a plan!

Sam Mickel
126. Samadai

That is one of the best shows on tv and that was funny as hell.
Darth Touma
127. alreadymadwithrescuingAS
Lol, subwoofer, that was foreshadowing at its finest. Some reward rescuing Joline is turning out to be, though Teslyn is all but sworn to Mat by now.
Tricia Irish
128. Tektonica

Getting punchie? LOL....loved Yogi! Sending to all my Swedish friends.


What about the upcoming Moraine rescue????

Sub: Thanks for the before and after shots. I meant to say "don't freeze to death instead of together...oops.

Anyway....we need an icebar and luge for the New Year's Eve Dance Party and for your great quote/foreshadowing, I think Torie owes you a dingle ball for lighting effects. Yes?
Ron Garrison
129. Man-0-Manetheran
@98 Wetlandernw: Thanks for that. Love the "so what's been up with you?" recap! LOL. "What have I been up to? Don't ask! It would take a book (or 12)!"

I love all our Two Rivers kids. Sure they have their flaws. Who doesn't? It's a work of fiction and they are what they are.

@112 subwoofer
Mat "says he is no lord, yet the more he says it, the more the opposite turns out to be true." Yup! It's like saying Rand and Perrin are better with women than he is. All three of them have that impression about each other. One of the things that makes RJ's writing so much fun - and so rewarding is watching the changes and growth of our characters. This rite of passage is essential to the story.

"...'I'll rescue an Aes Sedai, and she'll reward me,' Mat shot back." OMG! Hilarious! I don't remember that line. I'll be laughing about that one for some time to come.

Herid Fel - A quick glance over any character list for WoT will reveal MANY characters with the same first name. And IIRC, this theory got its start simply because there were two Herids.
Jack Diamond
130. violetdancer

Mat got even less for his rescue of ENE in the Stone of Tear; although they were't technically AS at the time. My money's on Moiraine for the reward.

Re: Mat/Perrin/ Rand friendship

Not much in those relationships rings false for me. I know too many groups of friends who behave exactly that way (although without the whole channeling/taveren/world 's-gonna-end-if-the-DO-wins angst) Perrin thinks before he acts. Mat acts before he thinks. Rand is the DR.

Right now they are separated by distance and various obligations. But they are not fair-weather friends. As they have in the past, Mat and Perrin will put their lives on the line for Rand once they are reunited. They will both step up and do what's required for their friend, the Dragon Reborn, and for the world even though it scares them spitless. Friendship can't get any tighter than that.
Darth Touma
131. Rand Al'Todd
Re the point in the commentary about Faille's worry about the AS making puppets of Rand and Perrin, and @24 @41

As Saldaean royalty, you know Faille has been told the various methods AS use to influence kings and queens. Obviously they try to persuade, cajole, mislead, manipulate, and threaten.

@24 thewindrose give quotes from Faille about AS doing horrible things to achieve their ends. Some of the horrible things being done to people the individual AS loved.

Faille apparently has been taught that these bad things were done at direction of WT. The point seems to be that Faille would expect an AS to betray anyone or undergo anything for duty, thus Verin doing the sa'sara would prove nothing.

But being able to exert influence or being willing to sacrifice yourself or loved ones for duty is still considerably different from being able to CONTROL people like puppets.

Faille seems to firmly believe that the AES SEDAI CAN CONTROL PEOPLE. We know they can, by using COMPULSION - which is officially forbidden. So has Faille seen/experienced COMPULSION at work?

I.e. Is Faille currently under compulsion and will she ultimately betray Perrin to the DO? (Perhaps by pretending to be captured again?) Will Perrin betray Rand as a result?

(and as an aside, how many of the ‘bad deeds’ she lists in the quote @24 were really due to Ishy’s influence or BA plots rather than due to an AS following directions from the WT? - From what we have seen, the AS seem to be pretty good at evading orders from the WT if they so desire and folks in Randland are much more likely to sacrifice family members if the one doing the sacrifice is a DF already.)

The thought that Perrin (one leg of the tripod) will fail (or at least be significantly challenged AGAIN) seems to be gaining ground among the comments here.
John Massey
132. subwoofer
Bangs on door"Icicle! Icicle! bang bang bang

Julian Augustus
133. Alisonwonderland
Samadai, Wetlander, and everybody else:

You don't have to worry at all about me taking your well-constructed opinions as a flame. In fact, I welcome such exchanges and discussions, as they serve to crystallize my own ideas and help reform others based on perspectives offered by others. That is why I come to the board, to discuss things with knowledgeable people like you.

I have never engaged in a flame war. When someone reacts to my opinion with what I consider to be out-of-bound behavior (personal insults and the like) I mentally mark them down as uncivilized or too uncouth to reason with, and ignore them thereafter.
Ron Garrison
135. Man-0-Manetheran
@131 Rand Al'Todd
"thus Verin doing the sa'sara would prove nothing." Ahh, but it sure would have made for a funny scene. I bet I'm not the only one who hoped to see it!
Darth Touma
136. alreadymadwithrescuedAS
violetdancer @130
Perhaps, but Teslyn is also working in his behalf. I can imagine a number of ways Mat's travails would be even more difficult were Teslyn not there to smooth things over with Joline.

MOM @135
I'd actually pity Verin if it comes to dancing the sa'sara. Those old bones can't really take much. Though I have to admit it does conjure quite a mental image.
Julian Augustus
137. Alisonwonderland
(BTW, it's funny that you speak of Perrin as the one who stays with Rand... he's the one who is elsewhere the most. From Falme on, there's one winter, all off-screen, where Perrin stays with Rand, Moiraine & co. in the mountains while Mat gets hauled off to Tar Valon for Healing. After that (beginning of Book 3)this is what you get: They all meet in Tear, where Perrin stays for about 20 days before he goes off to rescue the TR; Mat stays with Rand for the next two books. Perrin joins Rand at Dumai's Wells and stays with him for a whole 5 days, then goes off on the Masema/Alliandre/Shaido plot and hasn't yet seen Rand again as of the end of TGS.)

You are right that Mat has physically been around Rand more than Perrin has. But I look at the case you have made somewhat differently. I am more interested in Mat and Perrin's motivations than their mere physical presence. Mat went to the Aiel waste with Rand, not because he wanted to be with Rand and help him in his quest, but because the Aelfinn told him he would die if he didn't do so. You could say that, in all of tSR and tFoH, the two were in the same camp (or town), but never together. Mat spent the entire time (outside of the trip to Rhuidean) trying to be as far as he could possibly get from Rand. That is what I mean by he has not acted as a friend. I'm sure Rand would have loved to sit down and just shoot the breeze, reminisce over Emond's Field and how things have changed for them and what not. But Mat only sees Rand as a channeler who will go mad, not as his friend, and wants nothing to do with Rand unless forced to.

Perrin, by contrast, comes back to Rand in LoC on his own volition, because he felt Rand needed him. And he has sat down with Rand both before and after Dumai's Wells where the two have simply been friends from back home and talked like friends (despite Faile's efforts to stop it). Perrin, in my eyes, has acted as a friend should.

Anyway, that is my perspective, and I appreciate that others see it differently. As I said earlier, I had a strong dislike of Mat until the middle of tFoH when the pattern finally forced him to do his duty even as he was trying to run away and abandon Rand. Since then, he's has some of the best-written and enjoyable to read action in the series, and I've come to appreciate more the other facets of his personality you pointed out, that he will be there when the chips are down. My dislike has been tempered down to acceptance.
Darth Touma
138. Rand Al'Todd
@98 WetlanderNW LOL:
except that after the first Tuon entry, Mat would insert another "Tuon" between each entry.

Perrin would do the same with "Faille."

Rand would probably insert either "damned Aes Sedai" or "goin' insane"

@122 Subwoofer: More LOL -
If only Mat knew just HOW MANY Aes Sedai he would have to rescue!!!!
And his reward to date: Tuon!!!

When he said that he probably would have considered "Aes Sedai" to refer to all women channelers, not just sisters. So challenge for the bean counters: In your spare time during the holidays - do a search and count up just how many female channelers Mat has rescued to date - Aes Sedai and others, broken down by groups as you see fit (knowning that we expect to increase the count by at least one after Two Towers (oops - ToM).
Darth Touma
139. sweetlilflower
I don't have my books b/c I am visiting my in-laws in Charleston, but when Tuon asks Mat if he knows the Dragon Reborn, I think he reminisces (sp?) a bit and then sadly says, "No, I don't know the Dragon Reborn." Someone with books handy should look that up.
Hey, this might be my first post ever, even though I've read almost every comment, every post.
Roger Powell
140. forkroot
Since someone mentioned global warming, and this being the holiday season, I present the following:

(Sung to the tune of "Santa Claus is coming to Town")

You better watch out,
you better take care,
'cause carbon dioxide's warming the air.
Santa Claus is going to drown!

He's making a list,
he's checking it twice.
He's counting the buildings that fell through the ice.
Santa Claus is going to drown!

The polar ice cap's melting
and faster than you think.
Before too long old Rudolph will be swimming in the drink!

So, you better watch out,
you better take care,
'cause carbon dioxide's warming the air.
Santa Claus is going to drown!
Alice Arneson
141. Wetlandernw
Alisonwonderland @133 - Well said, and thank you for saying it!! One gets a bit gun-shy sometimes, because there are folks who take any disagreement as a personal attack. But as you say, the whole point of being here is to exchange ideas and gain new perspectives. Let's hear it for civilized discussion!!!! :)
Darth Touma
142. Alfvaen
Regarding Elayne on the throne of two countries--I confess I was picturing something like King James I of England/VI of Scotland. Of course, in that case the two countries were already united... But I think that somehow Andor and Cairhien would have to become united.

I hadn't thought of Galad before as potential King of Cairhien. That would be interesting, and it's possible he would be nicer to Rand (once he discovered the relationship) than Gawyn is. (I'm becoming more convinced that Galad is a better person than Gawyn and Elayne just can't see it.) And if he does marry Berelain, then does Mayene get to become part of Cairhien?

I was reading about consanguinity recently, and the extreme interbreeding of the European royal families (culminating in King Charles II(?) of Spain, who had only one-third the distinct ancestors that he could have), and it occurs to me that apart from Andor/Cairhien, we haven't heard much about a lot of intermarrying of royal families. Maybe it just hasn't come up otherwise.

Of course, we also have Murandy and Altara, the lip-service nations; Tarabon, with its King/Panarch; Tear and Illian, with their oligarchies; Mayene seems to be more like Gondor and its stewardship... A lot of countries that don't have the traditional absolute monarch thing going on. The Borderlands, of course, being under constant threat, most people have better things to worry about than who's in power.

It does also seem interesting to think of Perrin getting to be Saldaean royalty as well. I'm still not convinced that he won't end up with Manetheren, what with the Queen of Ghealdan his sworn vassal, and the Two Rivers pretty loyal too. If the Two Rivers gets overcrowded, maybe somebody can try to resettle the Caralain Grass?

I was never sure why all of those areas on the map were vacant; when did that ever really happen in our world? Maybe none of the big kingdoms can hold all of them, but there should be at least minor duchies...

@subwoofer: Ah, yes, it does seem like we're in the same Borderland realm. I'm pretty sure I've seen that palace before, in any case. Did you see RJ when he was in town for a CoT signing?
Darth Touma
143. tearl
Rand Al'Todd @131
Faille seems to firmly believe that the AES SEDAI CAN CONTROL PEOPLE. We know they can, by using COMPULSION - which is officially forbidden. So has Faille seen/experienced COMPULSION at work?

Not to argue but just for FYI, Faile may have seen Compulsion by the OP. Remember the conversation between Bashere and Taim and the couple who were Compelled. Then again she may already have been on her way to Illian.
Darth Touma
144. alreadymadwithintermarry
Rand al'Todd @138
You'd have to know how many Seafolk Windfinders were trapped in Ebou Dar. No specific numbers were ever mentioned.

Alfvaen @142
The borderland rulers POV specifically mentions intermarriage. Aside from that, the only other instance I recall is Darlin and Caraline. I know they weren't actually betrothed. But given that Cairhien and Tear have been antagonistic enough to each other to warrant having a buffer state at one time, I don't believe those two met by chance.
Alice Arneson
145. Wetlandernw
Alisonwonderland @137 - Yes and no. It's quite true that Mat spends a lot of time trying to be somewhere else. (Then again, right now if anyone outside my immediate family came down with swine flu or something, I'd be doing the "I love you but I'm not coming near you until you're done with it" routine myself...) And there was a big thing made about how, during certain times, Mat would find himself unable to even think seriously about leaving, even though he wanted to, which was clearly the ta'veren effect of being forced to stay where the Pattern wanted him. IIRC, Perrin felt the same thing but to a lesser extent at times; he was able to leave to rescue the TR, but when he felt "the pull" he returned to Rand.

I just wrote this big wall of text, and now I deleted it because it made something a lot clearer. The interactions of RPM are totally reflective of their personalities, so to say that one is a "better" friend than another is to say that one has a "better" personality than another. Certainly each of us is drawn to the characteristics we find admirable, which may be why I've always liked Perrin even though a lot of people don't. He is steady, dependable, likable, thoughtful and responsible. He's a lot like my brother (one of the greatest guys in the world, IMHO) and I would find it easy to be friends with him. Perrin is also the kind of guy who will sit down with a friend over a drink and a pipe and share both conversation and silence with equal comfort. Mat has a very different personality: funny, mischievous, active, impulsive and clever. He reminds me of a couple of my cousins - fun to be around but a bit exhausting, and half the time you can't get them to sit still long enough to have a conversation. I like him and would enjoy his friendship, but it's a very different kind of friendship.

And there you have a different wall of text...

Rand Al'Todd @138 - Yeah, there are more things that should have gone in... including repetitions... Oh well. The search on Mat-rescuing-channelers would be funny. Hope someone takes it on! Probably not me, or not at the moment anyway.

sweetlilflower @139 - I can't find my copy of Knife of Dreams, but I think the bit you're referring to might be in chapter 8. Anyone got it handy? Oh, and - welcome, you lurker you! ;) How you've managed to read all this craziness and not join in has me completely mystified.

@all - BTW, Torie assures me that we are NOT the looney bin. We're that crazy roller-coaster that some people are scared to get on but when you do it's WHEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeee all the way. And they're prepared for those occasions when someone throws up... :)

forkroot @140 - LOL!!
Thomas Keith
146. insectoid
Tek @121, Wet @123: Thanks! I try :)

Sub @132: LOL!

Fork @140: BAHAHAhahaha!!

I thought of one that Woofer might like:

to the tune of "Jingle Bells"

Dashing through the snow
In a one-team open sleigh
Over the fields we go
Freezing all the way

Bells on dogs' tails ring
Making spirits bright
What fun it is to ride and sing
A Woofing song tonight

Dingle balls, dingle balls
Dingle all the way
Oh what fun it is to ride
In a one-team open sleigh

Dingle balls, dingle balls
Dingle all the way
Oh what fun it is to ride
In a one-team open sleigh

(Does two dogs constitute a team? Hmm.)

Wet @145: Oh, we're definitely the Looney Bin. We certainly go sideways often enough ;)

craig thrift
147. gagecreedlives
Ask and you shall receive

From KoD chapter 8

Talking with her could be dangerous in other ways, too. “What do you know of the Dragon Reborn?” she asked him another evening.
He choked on a mouthful of wine, and the whirling colours in his brain dissipated in a fit of coughing. The wine was near enough vinegar; but even Nerim had a hard time finding good wine these days.
“Well, he’s the Dragon Reborn,” he said when he could speak, wiping wine from his chin with one hand. For a moment, he saw Rand eating at a large dark table. “What else is there to know?” Selucia refilled his cup smoothly.
“A great deal, Toy. For one thing, he must kneel to the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai’don. The prophecies are clear on that, but I haven’t even been able to learn where he is. It becomes still more urgent if he is the one who sounded the Horn of Valere, as I suspect.”
“The Horn of Valere?” he said weakly. The prophecies said what? “It’s been found, then?”
“It must have been, mustn’t it, if it was sounded?” she drawled dryly. “The reports I’ve seen from the place where it was blown, a place called Falme, are very disturbing. Very disturbing. Securing whoever blew the Horn, man or woman, may be as important as securing the Dragon Reborn himself. Are you going to play a stone or not, Toy?”
He played his stone, but he was so shaken that the colours whirled and faded without forming any image.

I had the book at work and manage type that out without my boss noticing :) Score one for the good guys.
Tricia Irish
148. Tektonica
Welcome and please feel free to jump in, the water's fine. They really play pretty nicely here.


Again, nicely put. Their friendship style manifests itself exactly as the rest of their personalities do, of course. My vast (cough) experience with men still leads me to believe that men don't really "sit and talk". Most hate that. Men do things. They bond by doing stuff together.

Both Perrin and Mat are great friends to Rand in their own ways. We know Rand has said enough times that he feels bad about using his friends, but use them he will. He has to. Being Ta'V'aren (sp), they have to be there for him too.

I think both Perrin and Mat resented that at the beginning, but I doubt either of them would go back, and be a blacksmith/horsetrader now. I know Perrin says he would like to just be a blacksmith, but you know, "how do you keep them down on the farm, after they've seen Rhuidean/Caemlyn/Tear/Illian/Carhien/gotten married/fought wars/changed the world?

Well, that was a small tangent.....

Fork@140: LOL! You have a new career ahead of you....can you say parody?

Insectoid@146: HoHoho.
Sam Mickel
149. Samadai
Well I am going to give this a try also.

To the tune of Oh, Holy Night.

Oh, Monday and Friday, us commenters are impatiently waiting.
It is the day of our leader, Leighs post.
Long were the days we waited in between.
Til it appeared and US commenters rejoiced.
The thrill of being first, we all commented quickly, for yonder posts another person we know.

Fall on your keyboard,
Oh type really fast,
oh refresh, oh refresh the post,
oh refresh , oh refresh, oh refresh one more time.

No ears were actually hurt in the making of this poor attempt at song humor. Nor was it intended to offend anyone
Ron Garrison
150. Man-0-Manetheran
"Dingle Balls" Verse 3:

Some say it's a Looney Bin,
And you know they might be right!
There are so many theories,
We post 'em day 'n' night.

"Bela is a Darkfriend."
"No, that just can't be true!"
"I think she is Demandred!"
"No, She has to be a Blue."

Looney Bin, Looney Bin
We're a crazy bunch.
Pass the oosquai round the room
We're drinking for our lunch.

Awww, snickerdoodles.
Tricia Irish
151. Tektonica
Samadai@149 and ManOManethern@150:

Too much! HOHOHOHAHAHA. Keep 'em coming.

I've made 10 batches of hot and spicey nuts, burnt my fingers and made a BIG mess in the kitchen. Can't stop to type....just laugh! Thanks.

Nuts, anyone?
Sam Mickel
152. Samadai
You know with all the treats we have coming to bunker Christmas party maybe we should hire our own standby paramedic.
craig thrift
154. gagecreedlives
Anyone else think that Faile’s examples of what aes sedai would do for the white tower might be her teachers and/or parents telling horror stories so that she will always be mindful around aes sedai and to always remember where their ultimate loyalty lies.


I’m the complete opposite. I’m so white I make casper look tanned and this time of year under the aussie sun is not the most comfortable. Just the other day it got to 39 degrees….. err that would be about 102 for you north americans out there and summer isn’t even in full swing yet. You want a good stock option start buying into sunscreen companies.


“My vast (cough) experience with men still leads me to believe that men don't really "sit and talk". Most hate that.”

As long as we are talking sports then we don’t mind. Throw in a couple of drinks and we are happy enough.
Ron Garrison
155. Man-0-Manetheran
"Put a buzz in your head like giant flies!"

I recently invented a new cocktail, and I've decided to name it Oosquai. (I hope I don't need Harriet's permission.) I planned on posting the recipe closer to New Year's Eve, but since we are in such a party mood here today...

In a tall glass place:
a shot of good tequila
(Hornitos is an excellent choice. Don't waste the expensive sipping brands, but don't use the horrible Jose Cuervo either!)
Fill with Oogave Ginger Ale* and
a squeeze of lime juice.

*Oogave is a new brand of all natural soda that is made here in Denver, Colorado. It is sweetened with agave nectar - not high fructose corn sweetner or even sugar. The difference is amazing! If interested, check their website for an explanation and also where to buy it in your state. Sorry outlanders, but it's not on the international market ...yet.

John Massey
156. subwoofer
@Insectoid *LOL* ahhhhhh good times:)
You should get Fifester to record it. It was perfect!

@GCL-You must have mad skills. I cannot manage the whole typing out of a book thing unless I have another heavy book to hold the first one open with, or I am typing with one hand. In either case, it does not make for covert typing. Thankfully I am the boss so it is not the end of the world, but ethics prevents me from going hard core. Must set a positive example;)

We should switch countries. It got upwards of 35 here and the complaints were many from all the pansies. Meanwhile I am soaking up the sun for all I am worth. Doing everything I can while it lasts for the mighty 3 months of the year. The heat feels good, even though my mumsie always says "only Mad Dogs and Englishmen go out in the mid day sun." I must be foaming.

@Insectoid- my two dogs constitutes a team of dysfunctional twits. They would run in opposite directions.

Bonnie Andrews
157. misfortuona
Forkroot@140 -ROFL

I can't tell you how happy I am I took a moment to check in before dinner tonight. I started singing right away and now my kids are planning on using it for sing-a-long at school. Hope there are no copywrite infringments.
Thanks for the excellent christmas gift. It almost beats out the TOR dingleball. Almost. :)

And then it goes on. There's enough material for Fife to do a whole album.
Thomas Keith
158. insectoid
Sam @149: How about "All I Want for Christmas Is a New F5 Key"? ;)

M-O-M @150: LOL

Wet @153: Agreed!

Sub @156: Do Fife's recordings involve the use of the True Power? ::shudder::

Re: dogs: Well, that sled--er, sleigh ride would go nowhere, then...

craig thrift
159. gagecreedlives
Alright here's my take on a christmas carol.

'Twas the night before posting, when all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse;
The refresh button was being pressed with care,
In hopes that St. Leigh soon would be there;

GCL were nestled all snug in his bed,
While visions of oosquai danced in his head;
And Subwoofer in his 'kerchief, and cap,
Had just settled his brain for a long winter's nap;

When from the monitor there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.
Away to the computer I flew like a flash,
Pulled out the keyboard and pressed hash.

When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a new post by Leigh, and a comment by wetlan-deer,
Another comment appeared, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be AlreadymadwithSt. Nick.

More rapid than skimming the posters they came,
And Leigh whistled, and shouted, and called them by name;
"Now, schrodinger! now, violetdancer! now, Freelancer and Samadai!
On, Insectoid! on, forkroot! on, thewindrose and MasterAlThor!
To the top of the comments! to read the text of y’all!
Now type away! type away! type away all!

And allow me to apologise to the other posters on Tor
I ran out of creativity, curse me to the blight
But allow me to finish with a Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night.
Darth Touma
160. alreadmadwithoosquai
I thought oosquai was whiskey.
Sam Mickel
161. Samadai

That was awesome, I am afraid we are going to have to give Sub's dingle ball back to you for that one.
Chin Bawambi
162. bawambi
I always thought Moiraine would wind up on the Cairhein throne at the end of the series. Can anyone remember how strong her claim is? I usually read Lotr (starting with the Hobbit of course) over the holidays but it looks like im either going to have to track down books 2-5 or buy them again because you've gotten me hooked again.
Sam Mickel
163. Samadai
Moiraine was King Lamans brothers daughter. So her claim is rather strong. But she does not want the throne as of everything we know of her now.
Ron Garrison
164. Man-0-Manetheran
amwoosquai: whiskey? You might be right, but I don't recall it being spelled out. If not, I lobby for a tequila-like liquor - made from a desert succulent, not wetlander grains.
Jay Dauro
166. J.Dauro
From tSR - 57

When he accepted, they made him go through that ritual of "Remember honor" again, this time with some drink called oosquai, made from zemai, drinking to the bottom of a small silver cup with each of them.

And we know zemai is maize, so oosquai is corn liquor. Or as they would call it not too far from my home, moonshine.
Tricia Irish
167. Tektonica
What a fun party thread we have tonight! Thanks GCL....very nice!

MOM: I vote for the desert succulant liquor as well...makes sense, and tasty too! Then there are the hallucinations.....
I don't think whiskey was ever mentioned, IIRC. Have to check out Hornitos and the new Oogave stuff next time I"m in of my favorite towns!
Tricia Irish
168. Tektonica

Pays to hit refresh.....zemai is maize re-arranged. Duh. Do they raise corn in the three fold land? There's no water there?
Darth Touma
169. the zedmeister
Here comes a slightly incoherent wall of text. It's past midnight for me, so I'll be back tomorrow to explain anything that didn't make sense.

Wetlandernw @98

"Do you really want to be around when a guy goes crazy paranoid, and he's a guy who can throw lightning around, make a sword out of nothing and chop everything to bits with it, pick you up and throw you across the room? Not so much, I'm thinking."

But see, for me this is the crux of the issue. Do I want to be around when 'a guy' goes crazy paranoid? Of course not. Do I want to be around when my father or brother or best friend goes crazy paranoid? I don't see that I have a choice. I have to be. Anything else would be a betrayal. And real friends are like family, and in some cases are even closer; they're "the family you choose". You don't just abandon them. You stick with them through thick or thin. As the cliche has it, "a friend in need is a friend indeed."

I picked the example of AIDS not only because it's one I am personally familiar with, but also because AIDS is a disease that still carries a stigma to this day. Part of it comes from the fact that a lot of people are so afraid of becoming infected through casual contact (even though the mode of transmission is fully known) that they ostracize anyone with it. They justify it as self-preservation, just like Mat justifies his distancing from Rand, but it's paranoid and unfair, and painful to watch. I would argue that Mat's avoidance of Rand is equally unfair. Sure, he's heard stories of guys who went mad and killed those around them, but how can he know how credible they are?

The other reason why AIDS patients are often ostracised, of course, is because of homosexuality. And that's another reason why Mat's attitude towards Rand grates on me. His rapid 180 degree reversal, his sudden wanting to have nothing to do with a person he's known all his life, reminds me too much of the way homophobic people react when someone close to them comes out. Even if they can tolerate being around the gay person, the previous affection and easy relationship is lost. The exception are those people who feel genuine love love or friendship for the person coming out, and who then work to overcome their homophobia. I don't see Mat overcoming his issues with Rand, or even trying to. His prejudices are stronger than his affection or friendship for this guy he's known his whole life.

But maybe AIDS was a bad example. Consider real-life mental illness. If someone finds out that a friend has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, if they are a true friend they won't abandon that person. They'll put up with the delusions and the violent outbursts until they become intolerable. Which may come sooner rather than later, but at least they'll try. And they'll show *some* support and caring, which frankly I don't see Mat doing. His occasional "has he gone mad yet?" inquiries can be attributed to morbid curiosity as much as to caring, imho.

Now, I get those people who are saying that actions speak louder than words and that Mat has been there for Rand when he needed him, but I don't think he has. You can intensely dislike someone and still help them stay alive, That doesn't make you friends. Rand has more needs than just staying alive or winning victory in battle. *All* people, Rand inclided, have a need for companionship and friendship, whichever form it takes. It's what makes us human. And Mat isn't there for him in that sense. People joke that Mat simply isn't a very dependable guy when it comes to the little things. but it's often the little things that can mean the most.
Jay Dauro
170. J.Dauro

They served both corn and tomato at the dinner in Cold Rocks Hold.
Darth Touma
171. rshel555
Yes, I'm pretty much in agreement that oosquai (brown alcoholic liquid) was intended to refer to whiskey (whisky). You might see the analogous name used here in Wikipedia: "Whisky is a shortened form of usquebaugh, which English borrowed from Irish Gaelic uisce beatha and Scottish Gaelic uisge beatha. This compound descends from Old Irish uisce, "water", and bethad, "of life" and meaning literally "water of life". It meant the same thing as the Latin aqua v?tae which had been applied to distilled drinks since early 14th century. Other early spellings include usquebea (1706) and iskie bae (1583)."
Julian Augustus
172. Alisonwonderland
I always thought Moiraine would wind up on the Cairhein throne at the end of the series. Can anyone remember how strong her claim is?

In New Spring, we find Moiraine as a newly minted Aes Sedai after the Aiel War. The Aiel, as we know, killed Laman in the war, so Cairhien was at that point without a monarch. There were some moves by powerful factions in Cairhien to install Moiraine as queen. But, by that time she already had her life-long quest, and she escaped from Tar Valon to the borderlands, primarily to follow the quest, but also to avoid being crowned queen.
craig thrift
173. gagecreedlives

Mate I am really tempted to do the country swap but alas I am about to purchase my first house. And it has a pool. And my sister will be living with me. And my sister has very attractive friends. And I think you can see where I am going with this. However once I start thinking with my brain again I may very well do the swap. Ask me again in say about 30 or 40 years.

And down here all the pansies start wilting in the winter.


Glad you liked it but the dingle ball was a gift. Its subs for keeps.

Maybe oosquai is a combination of tequila and whiskey. Hmmmm now that gives me an idea.
Eugenie Delaney
174. EmpressMaude
Alisonwonderland@172, bawambi@162:

re: Queen Moiraine of Cairhien

I always thought that somehow Elayne would end up with the Sun Throne but appoint either her brother Galad to be her Viceroy, but with him the new LCC, perhaps Lady Moiraine would do as well as her Vicereine?
Jack Diamond
175. violetdancer
LOL on the Christmas parodies. You guys all rock!


People fear what they don't understand, be it AIDs, channeling or someone of a different race (cf. the discussion in Part 3). It's as old as the hills, or at least has been recognized since South Pacific was written. I doubt that type of fear can ever go away. It even occurs in the near perfect wold of Star Trek.

Yes. There is an element of that fear in Mat, but I do not believe for a minute that he will let his fear keep him from doing the right thing. Perhaps he's betrayed Rand a bit but only in his head. And his actions are in fact what count.
Sam Mickel
176. Samadai
Subwoofer, Gagecreedlives,

Don't worry I would never take anyones dingle balls away.
Cynthia Ahmar
177. tenkuu
About fans, check this out.

About Rand, Perrin is not exactly the best friend in the world to him, but Mat is quite a bit worse. Especially considering some of his adventures with Rand in the first book when the two of them were alone together. And for them both to think of a man they've known since early childhood, and been close friends with all of their lives, as nothing more than a man going mad just because he can channel is a little extreme. I don't hate Mat, because really, I can see some of his good points, but I just don't think he's been as good a friend to Rand as Rand has been to him, overall.

About Elayne, nevermind the fact that I hate her, I still think her bloodlines run way too close to Rand's for them to have had children. No matter what other people might say about how they're not closely related enough, the whole thing still creeps me out.

As for Rand's situation with the One Power, I think a better analogy would be a man with an impending mental illness/physical impediment of some kind. Especially the whole insane part. If you were a guy (for those of you who are not), would you abandon, say, your brother if he suddenly became mentally ill? And sure, you might think it normal not to want to be around Rand when he goes mad, but someone has to figure out eventually that trying to completely shut a person off from the outside world (the Aes Sedai way) or, as a close friend, completely shutting them out yourself, won't exactly help the process. I would think that it would jumpstart the madness, if anything, to be treated differently by everyone else, especially those you care about and who supposedly care about you.
Sam Mickel
178. Samadai
tenkuu, Rand and Elayne have no blood relation at all. you couldn't even consider them cousins. When Rand is talking to Elenia about Andors history she is describing how the royal families are related. specifically he asks how closely related his mother Tigraine was Related to Elaynes mother Morgase. she replies that they are Royal cousins. Rand asks what if they are not royalty and are farmers or commoners. she replies that they would not be considered related at all if that were the case.

So, not sure if you remember that or not, so it is chapter 26, Connecting Lines of Lord of Chaos.

Tenkuu, not trying to be confrontational.
John Massey
179. subwoofer
Wait, what was that? Sub's dingle ball? I got a dingle ball? When did that happen? Did I know about it? Did somebody tell me? LTT- did you take a message?

Sorry, slipped my mind with all the end of the world stuff

Dammit! I thought we had this discussion about the lack of communication making this an uphill battle for Team Light!

Er... I said sorry

Grumble mutter grumble...

Light-up dingle ball comes on Oh yeah, the pretty ball and chain picture- cold has numbed head. Brain no work. Need oatmeal.

@GCL- I dunno how cold it gets down under but be wary of pools. They are known money pits. Utilities plus maintenance can suck the green backs right out your wallet. You have an arrangement with your sister?Scratches head Is this Aiel humor? What? Is that you again LTT? Hmmmm, scratches ear lobe, don't forget to take pictures.

Were we to check out the plea for funding Wiki? Sure, go hard.

Sensitive subject here, I'll take it on with my normal subtlety and tact. Well, I think Wet said it better than me, it is not so much that Rand is going insane, it would be the collateral damage as a result. Remember, the male AS went loopy and they broke the world. Didn't just smash the china and crush the coffee table, they broke the world- the whole thing. Rand had er... growing pains in earlier books, people died, he opened up a new gap in a mountain range and there were after shocks. People ie me, would be wary of Rand accidentally losing control of his power and lashing out and killing by accident. Rand lost it with Callandor too. That did not end well.

Maybe a better example would be if there was a building on fire. You can battle the flames but at some point it might be an idea to save yourself and let the place go. Or maybe if Rand had the Resident Evil disease. Compassion is important, but so is self preservation. There is nothing wrong with that.

Corn- seems to me they have corn in Mexico- hot, desert like place. Corn tortillas, tacos, tamales etc. Corn is a staple part of the diet, so it is conceivable that the Aiel may have something similar. Why, oh why must it be tequila? I lost that battle years ago.

Bunker done, just needs a roof. Ran out of daylight.

Some Person
180. The Ninth Horse
About Elayne, nevermind the fact that I hate her, I still think her bloodlines run way too close to Rand's for them to have had children. No matter what other people might say about how they're not closely related enough, the whole thing still creeps me out.

As Samadai@178 said, there is no real relation. Even if they were, however, consider that offspring of first cousins are not substantially more likely to have birth defects than those any two unrelated people. The primary issue with inbreeding (coming in after many generations) is lack of genetic diversity, which I don't think applies here.
Darth Touma
181. alreadymadwithqueenmo
Alisonwonderland @132
Errr... I always figured it was the Aes Sedai themselves who wanted to put Moiraine on the throne of Cairhien.
Roger Powell
182. forkroot
Go ahead and use it with my blessing, it's original to me except that I heard someone else use the line "Santa Claus is going to drown" somewhere - that's what inspired me.

Speaking of inspired - I've been working away at defacing W Clement Moore only to hit refresh and see that gagecreedlives@159 has beaten me to the punch.
Good on'ya Mate, but I'm still going to inflict my creation on you all (shortly) since it's a somewhat different spin.
Roger Powell
183. forkroot
::deep breath:: OK, here it is. With apologies to W Clement Moore and Robert Jordan both:

Twas the night before Bel Tine and in the Two Rivers
were rumors of creatures that gave me the shivers

That morning we'd brought in our cider with care
when I saw a black rider who then wasn't there!

While Bela kept plodding to Edmond's Field bound
my 'Da looked intensely out back and around

There was nothing to see so we went on our way
and my thoughts of that rider then fled with the day

For excitement was rampant, there were strangers in town!
An exotic high lady in a blue silken gown.

And a man who was with her with the hardest of faces,
plus a gleeman with stories of faraway places!

Then what to my wondering eyes should appear
but old "Peddler Fain" bringing Winternight cheer.

The whole town gathered round to hear news of "out there"
while the gleeman affixed him an omninous stare.

But old Fain loved to talk, and he'd not miss his chance
(Though it seemed like he gave me a curious glance)

He said that in Illian there's a Hunt for the Horn
and a fellow down south was the Dragon Reborn

So he talked about countries as far as the sea
I just knew that such places meant nothing to me

I expected we'd stay in the town for the night
but 'Da shocked me and said that "we'll leave while there's light"

He said "Perrin and Mat saw the black rider too"
So we went home to dinner (and yuck ... mutton stew)

Then my 'Da pulled a trunk out I'd not seen before
And removed a long sword marked with herons of yore

All at once at the front there arose such a clatter
that my 'Da had to leap as he saw our door shatter!

Then as creatures of nightmare piled into the room
I was sure that we faced inescapable doom

But my 'Da had that sword and he knew how to use it
as a Trolloc put forth his hand only to lose it!

Then my 'Da hollered "run!" and I ran for the back
where I found there were more Trollocs poised to attack

So I dove out a window and rolled to the ground
and I crouched in the shadows making nary a sound

With a crash then, my Da' broke a window in shards
and he led the foul creatures away from our yards

Til the night became silent, only then did I stir
and I crept through the leatherleaf, nettles and fir

When I finally found him, my 'Da had a fever
from a wound in his side from a Trolloc's dark cleaver

I gave thanks to the Light for the strengh that it gave him
But we had to go on so the Wisdom could save him

Then my 'Da whispered softly "My son now take heed:
Take the sword as you go back for things we may need"

I returned to the house to get water and bread
when a Trolloc arose who had only "played dead"

He assumed that his cunning and strength wouldn't fail him
but his eyes opened wide when he felt me impale him.

Now I could not believe it, I had hardly the skill
yet just somehow blind chance had allowed me the kill

So I lashed up a travois as best as I could
And I dragged my feverish 'Da through the wood

I don't know how I made it, but as night turned to dawn
I had dragged him to Edmond's Field and to the lawn

Where the Wisdom was trying to heal others who fell
(for the Trollocs had ravaged the village as well)

It's too late Rand" she said, "for his wound has been made
with the vilest of weapons, a shadowspawn blade"

But I wouldn't accept it, though chances looked thin
Still I carried my 'Da to a room at the Inn

And I begged of the Mayor to do what he could
So he thought for a while and then suddenly stood:

"There is one chance that's left, though it's dangerous to try
begging favors from those known as Aes Sedai"

"You should take your request to the lady in blue
But beware of commitments required of you!"

So I pleaded her back to that room at the Inn
and I promised her anything if she'd begin

Then she took out a rod and proceeded to channel
and my Da's breathing eased as he slumped in his flannel

As my Da's fever left him, I knew he would live
Then I started to muse what the price was to give

But Moiraine merely looked at me, measured and slow
And said "Rand, there is something you really must know".

She said "None of you three (meaning Perrin and Mat)
may safely remain here. It's as simple as that."

Now the rest of the story, is too long to set forth
About how Egwene joined us and we fled to the North

And the many adventures we undergo still
As the old saying goes: "The Wheel weaves as it will"

Still now I must say, since I'm Lord of the Morn
"Happy Bel Tine to all!" - from the Dragon Reborn
Darth Touma
184. mike shupp

a. Elayne's got a claim to the throne that's as good as anyone elses.

b. Rand views her as trustworthy.

Which has been pointed out alreadly. I add:

c. The Cairhiennan nobility have been playing their Game of Houses -- vying for influence via misdirection and threat and treachery -- struggling for power, basically -- for years upon years now, and Colavaere's grab for the throne, tacitly abetted by just about everyone then in Rand's sight, is just the latest example. And Rand is ... annoyed ... by it. The blunt fact is that the "Game" is not an amusement; it's weakened the Kingdom financially and militarily; it's done the common people no good; it's done no real good for the nobility. In fact it's done immense harm and it needs to be stopped if CairHaein is to play a proper role at Tarmon Gai'don. And the best way to stop it is to impose an outsider as ruler-- an outsider already with training to become a ruler, an outsider that can rely on a power base (read "army" and "wealth") that is immune to Cairhainnan meddling, an outsider who hopefully is immune to the temptations of Game playing herself and will not make of the error of being viewed by her subjects as "typically" Cairhainnen. All things considered, Elayne fits the bill better than any other candidate in sight.

(Paraphrasing Thucydides, I'm not sure this is exactly the speech Rand gave to the troops at the time, but it's exactly what he should have said in the circumstances.)
Darth Touma
186. BenM
forkroot @183:

That was great.
John Massey
187. subwoofer
@ GCL & Forkroot- ::sniff, sniff::
t'was poetry, sheer poetry. Warms an old man's heart. If that doesn't put a person in the Christmas Spirit, well then, I say, they have no spirit.


Darth Touma
188. Jormengrund
You know, I really enjoyed this re-read.

For one, just getting to read your take on Perrin and Faile does WONDERS for me! I mean, at least I'm not the only one out there who's frustrated by far and large with the dysfunction we read in their relationship.

Oh, and speaking on your comments here Leigh, if reading that smut makes you sleepy, well that's usually what happens after nookie, so y'know, it goes without sayin, right? *wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more!*

Now, if we could only get each side to talk to the other, it might get somewhere.. Problem is, they don't, so it doesn't, and we continue on for six more books! (And there was much rejoicing)

Eventually, my hope is to see Faile step too far, and get her nose nipped, Perrin finally toes the line, Loial gets his book deal, and Rand completes the circle by dancing the Sa'sra (sp?) for Elayne.

'Nuff said, time to go and read TGS for my third time!
Tricia Irish
190. Tektonica
Forkroot@184: Bravo Bravo! Encore! Wonderful.

A thread full of poets!
Tricia Irish
191. Tektonica
Sub@179: OK, whiskey, not tequila. That stuff is dangerous.
I grew up in Illinois and Iowa and I do know something about corn, if nothing else, and it takes water to grow. So they must irrigate in the Three Fold Land, or you'd just get nubbins. I'll go with irrigation......

Zedmeister@169: Well said and good words for all of us in real life. But.......

I still don't think Rand's been the best friend ever either. He tries to drive his friends away because he thinks he's going to go mad, and he's really not very forthcoming with anyone. He keeps himself isolated which certainly doesn't encourage a warm and fuzzy chat from his friends.......

I could just say, " Men!"
Darth Touma
192. alreadymadwithrandsfaults
Tektonica @191
Yes, Rand does drive others away, but it's for their own protection. LTT wasn't the Kinslayer for nothing, and the descent into terminal madness can by all accounts be rather abrupt.
As for not being forthcoming with anyone, can you really blame him? Being forthcoming is usually an invitation for meddlers, and he certainly has enough of those around him. Besides, Rand doesn't exactly have a monopoly on that particular fault. Even women possess it.
Ron Garrison
193. Man-0-Manetheran
Re. All on Oosquai:
Great research! Whiskey drinkers rejoice. Having had corn liquor, however, I shall continue to consider "zemai" as the Aiel word for "agave." ;-)
And in my hold I shall continue to serve this cocktail to my friends as "Oosquai!" It's delicious, and I won't be switching to moonshine as the key ingredient. LOL. Give it a try and call it whatever you want. "A rose by any other name..."

WOW! That was brilliant! channel:flannel LOL! should publish this on the front page!
Darth Touma
194. sweetlilflower
So, I know it doesn't have much to do with the current discussion, but as i was trying to put my son to bed last night, I was thinking about Randland. (I know, I'm an official nerd) I started thinking about Galad taking the Sun Throne, and I got a Camelot flashback. King Al'thor, ehem, I mean Arthur giving the rule to Sir Galad...does anyone else feel this way?
Darth Touma
195. litg
Great recap, as always. One note, though, I hope you don't take too much of a liking to Annoura, since there is at least circumstantial evidence that she is Black Ajah. She meets with the Prophet behind Berelain's back during That Plotline, and, more tellingly (to me), when she first meets Cadsuane (later in this book I think) she begins furiously rubbing her fingers together in the "I'm Black Ajah, are you?" sign we saw Halima and Delana perform when they first met. Another Aes Sedai notices Annoura's action but writes it off to mere nerves at meeting Cadsuane, but it's too conveniently pointed out to not mean something.
Tess Laird
196. thewindrose
A big wow for the creativity of this thread, or I should say for the commenters at err I mean WoT Blog -

:):)insectoid, Man-o-Manetheran, Samadai, gagecreedlives & forkroot:):)
Darth Touma
197. FellKnight
forkroot @ 183


Darth Touma
198. Rand Al'Todd
@195 Litg:

So rubbing fingers together is the "secret fraternal handshake" of the Black Ajah???

good thing it wasn't tugging on braids- the 'hunt for the BA' plot thread would have been pretty short. "Nyn, I missed your initiation. Welcome to the BA!!" "No, I'm a good girl! I would never join those b**@es!" Zap! Zap! "Egwene, you need a new sitter!!"
Ron Garrison
199. Man-0-Manetheran
@194 sweetlilflower
You are correct in recognizing Arthurian parallels in WoT.
I figured most of you are far enough along that you read, that you know Rand al'Thor, al'Thor, yes he is an Arthur analog. He is also a Thor analog.
- Robert Jordan, Real Life Influences article

Over at The 13th Depository you can find some very interesting essays on various topics. The Rand parallels to King Arthur are covered here.
Sean Banawnie
201. Seanie
Gagecreedlives@159 &Forkroot @183:
James Jones
202. jamesedjones
195 litg
...when she first meets Cadsuane (later in this book I think) she begins furiously rubbing her fingers together in the "I'm Black Ajah, are you?" sign we saw Halima and Delana perform when they first met.
I could have sworn that the sign was placing your thumb between your index and middle finger. On the other hand, I agree that Annoura is BA.
Sam Mickel
203. Samadai

That was awesome. excellently done.
Alice Arneson
204. Wetlandernw
forkroot @183 - Well Done!!!! ::applauds wildly:: Bravo!
Darth Touma
205. alreadymadwithbasigns
The sign is placing your thumb between index and fore fingers. At least I believe so, too. And I really wouldn't mind if the Black Ajah plot thread was shortened.
John Massey
206. subwoofer
@AMW- I had to chuckle when I read your post about invitations to meddle- too true! Loose lips sink ships and Rand bringing many people into his circle of trust has disaster written all over it. Of course, telling the people he started on this adventure with about what is going on could not hurt. At some point Rand has to trust someone and constantly I see his struggle to let his guard down only to be disappointed and then he feels he can't tell anyone anything.

That theme is reoccurs throughout the books. Rand is conflicted by his identity so he sets out on foot without any help or guidance. Later Rand has problems trusting AS so he begins the jump from place to place. The Maidens pummel him for this and for not letting them carry Rand's honor. Rand jumps about and goes and battles Rahvin on his own. Thankfully Ny bailed him out. Rand jumps about some more and that gets him into trouble when he gets kidnapped. After his rescue Rand jumps about by himself more and he has Fain leave another wound in his side.

I am thinking that when Rand goes to fight the DO, he pulls a boneheaded move and goes to deal with the DO alone instead of the whole tripod thing and doing it with his friends. I hope that if Rand can trust someone and not have that trust broken, that will be half the fight of going to the Last Battle. Rand learns that he does not have to do everything on his own to get things done.

Yay! Scotch it is. Am looking forward to the New Years Bunker Bash! I have the sausage rolls. If my dogs don't sneak them- they could pull off the greatest heist in the world if food was the treasure.

Darth Touma
207. sweetlilflower
I must say that there are some really...talented song-writers on this site.

On the whole Mat/Perrin/Rand friend issue... Imagine you are an 18 yr old farm boy and Trolls and Ogres attack your farm. Then, Glenda the good witch shows up in her soap bubble and whisks you off to some other continent where you must find Santa Claus and the North Pole, which are somewhere really hot and everything around you wants to eat you. Then, you are attacked by Lucifer. That's most of what happens to these boys in just tEotW! Plus, Mat is infected by the SL dagger and is paranoid and distrustful of everyone!

Can ANYONE honesty tell me that if these things happened to you that it wouldn't affect the relationships b/t yourself and those you around you?
John Massey
208. subwoofer
@Sweet- well, you have a valid point- serious stuff does happen to the boys. They go from a relatively quiet and idyllic life to serious drek in a heart beat. Similar from going 0 to 60 in 2 sec. Things that happen are bound to affect people. Things happen to me all the time. If anybody lives life, experiences happen to them and it becomes part of who they are and how they view the world.

But they can't hold you back from trust or love. I personally have seen some of this in past relationships. Everybody has baggage. Things that make them who they are, scar tissue of the heart, experiences in life and love. The difference is, some people can deal and handle their baggage and can move around with it. Other people let their baggage hold them back from doing what they have to do and as a result, miss out on much because of these things anchoring them in the past.

Things have happened. Rand is the DR, Mat died, Perrin is part fluff ball. Can't change that. How each deals with it and progresses through the upcoming trials is what sets them apart and makes them heroes. How each rises to the occasion. In the end, at least for me, I have found hardship easier to deal with when you have someone to share the load with. Same for any of the boys. If they learn that at the very least, they can confide in each other, over a brew or just a simple heart to heart, then things may be as bad, but they won't feel so bad.

209. Freelancer

I might agree with your final sentiment but for one tiny detail. Moiraine did a great many things to keep the boys from communicating with one another once Rand was identified as The One. She didn't sit them all down, give them an honest history of Lews Therin, that the Dragon wasn't exactly the destroyer history made him out. A number of her moves helped foster a distance between our boys. Men are not solely at fault. Egwene and Nynaeve play their bits as well.

Nobody else was a great help either. In case anyone out there hasn't noticed yet, this is the overarching moral of the story: You cannot succeed when trusting nobody. Until there is trust and collaboration, there will be weak victories and resounding defeats. Look at the few times folks really worked properly together. To paraphrase Leigh, Stuff gets done!.
John Massey
210. subwoofer
Hi Free:) I would of given you a shout but you have no er... box. Hope this Christmas finds you and your family happy, healthy, and content. I do agree with you, the boys must pull together to succeed. As you have said in any of the victories for Light, there is team work.

In the Age of Legends, great things were accomplished by having men and women working together. I am sure this is the destiny of Rand and Co. Why else would RJ create a system of magic with checks and balances having to do with linking and surrendering. In many other books, sorcerers do not link, they do not have the ability. RJ has made it so men and women can link and by doing so become exponentially more powerful.

There has to be a reason for this. IMHO I don't see RJ making this and having Rand pull a John Wayne.
'No Man is an Island'

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Devotions upon Emergent Occasions
John Donne

Darth Touma
211. sweetlilflower

I am not trying to say that the situation is ideal, or even rational; but it does make sense that their relationships are in tatters after their experiences. I sincerely hope that they will each time to sit and actually think rationally about their own actions and of those around them and realize that they must use their various talents and experiences together, or Team Light will fail.
I am a proponent of them using their hardships, as you so aptly named them, to forge the bonds of their friendship more tightly together.

And, yes, Freelancer, Moiraine did a great many things wrong in the first three books...she still is a kick-a** character.
Darth Touma
212. alreadymadwithrandsthemes
subwoofer @206
Agreed that it's a recurring theme. Sadly, the story of Rand's life is that even his close friends have problems trusting his abilities and judgment. It's either that, or they assume they know better what to do, despite not having any idea of exactly what to do. Rand's troubles are unfortunately unique enough that very few can draw parallels to his experience and this is essentially what prevents him from automatically trusting the judgment of others.

Freelancer's right. Moiraine's original plan involved separating Rand from the others and making sure he listened to her and only to her. That obviously did not work.
Thomas Keith
213. insectoid
Fork @183: ::clapping:: Well done! Bravo!

Free @209: Well said!

John Massey
214. subwoofer
@Sweet- agreed and well put. The group dynamic of Rand and his friends is what troubles the DO. That is a weakness and a strength for Team Light. If the boys reforge their friendship and become reliant on each other and trusting, I think they can succeed. Mat puts himself in harms way to keep his word. Perrin full expects to die but goes to save Rand anyways. Rand knows that he is in trouble but stays by Mat through thick and thin when Mat is sick from the dagger. Rand saves Eggy with the same sentiment.

Their motivation is there, it just has to be put into words with each other. They have all had similar upbringings.

@AMW- that is the essence of faith. Trusting completely without knowing for sure.

Darth Touma
215. alreadymadwithnotrust
Yes unfortunately most of the people around Rand have demonstrated an unhealthy ability to abuse his trust, not to mention act high and mighty about it. Though there are exceptions of course, but those are few and far in between.
Alice Arneson
216. Wetlandernw
subwoofer @210 - You quoted John Donne!!! You rock!!!

Well, I already knew that, but still. :)
John Massey
217. subwoofer
So it was an intentional thing by Moiraine to divide and er... conquer the boys. I mean at least to separate them so as to have more influence and power over the boys individually. Mo, at some point actually admits to this? I learned something new today.


Like her in the end, but that scheming Aes Sedai...

I guess then Moiraine laid the foundation for Rand's distrust with all AS. Mo was Rand's first encounter, and subsequent encounters have not met with any improvements.

craig thrift
219. gagecreedlives

Pictures righto mate. I will see what I can do. And no greenbacks down here. Its all brightly coloured and plastic :)


If I wasn’t at work I would be standing and applauding. Nicely done.


As others have noted the finger rub is different from the sign that Halima gave Delana. But that’s not to mean your idea doesn’t have merit. Im sure the darkfriend network has all sorts of signs and signals to recognise each other. Doesn’t Halima say to Delana that Delana would follow a beggar if he made the right signal.

Wasn’t the whole reason that Moraine sent Thom away was that Rand was starting to get to much useful advice from him and Moraine wanted Rand only to listen to her.
John Massey
220. subwoofer
Geeze! I missed the whole Moiraine as a manipulative person subtext. I don't think Gandalf pulled the same stuff. Pity. Maybe when Moiraine the White comes back she is not as twisted, or more to the point, does not try to twist words, facts, events, people, to suit her purpose.

I am starting to think that the Tower is like Congress.

@GCL you were no slouch yourself, well done with the incorporation of all:) And going hardcore working on Christmas week! And taking pictures of a ...warm place while I am under several feet of snow. I took some time off to deal with a certain bunker, which is done now! If that kid asks for a pony next year... ! Pow! To the moon!

221. Lily of the Valley

Bravo! Amazing work of poetry right there. Loved reading it; might just print it out and hang it on my wall. :)!

And, darnit, I just lost the Game. ):
Darth Touma
222. alreadymadwithmoschemes
subwoofer @217
Correct. Although Moiraine eventually made it up to Rand by swearing oaths. It was she who first tried to drive a wedge between Rand and his friends by making sure Rand got kitted out in his new clothes first, as early as Fal Dara at the start of TGH. That's where the entire "looking like a lord" started.
John Massey
223. subwoofer
And I believe it has been established that RJ borrowed from the Masons. My grandfather was a Mason and he told me you can identify another by the way they walk or shake hands etc. No surprise with the BA then.

224. Lily of the Valley
-gasp- Did Subwoofer just edit a post?!

And, yeah, I think we get a POV from Moiraine about the effort she goes through to isolate Rand and make him listen only to her advice. :/ For all of her Awesome, she was "Aes Sedai to her toes".
John Massey
225. subwoofer
What?! I edit like a champion! Maybe not for text usually, as I kan speld prite gud. But I edit. Sometimes so I am not doing multiple posts, sometimes because things occur to me after the fakt, sometimes because I find the link or prite picture i have been looking for, sometimes I double post, and sometimes I am crazy.

Bonnie Andrews
226. misfortuona
Slips back out of lurking mode.
Divide and Conquer
Moraine saw this as the best way to assure that she had the most influence with Rand in the beginning.
It made sense until she realized the importance of all three boys/young men. I think she realized that she'd been wrong in doing this before her trip through the looking glass. She certainly realized that the DR needed someone that he could rely on.
I keep needing to remind myself, and maybe some of the rest of you are doing this too. The whole story has only covered something like two years. These boys had to grow up really fast and I have always found that it's takes far less time to learn the hard lessons, than to overcome their impact on your lives.
Despite their own trials, as of tGS, both Perrin and Mat accept that they will be needed at TG and as far as I can see both intend to be there. I don’t imagine for a moment that they won’t stand together metaphorically, even if the plotline has them separated physically at the last battle.
And now I’ll just hunker down and pretend that I’m not being distracted from work and Christmas by all of the talent and shenanigans here at Really boss I am working!

Sub - ROFL
craig thrift
227. gagecreedlives

"sometimes I am crazy."

Bonnie Andrews
228. misfortuona
Now GCL be nice. Sometimes, I mean what's crazy about building a bunker... er treehouse, in December, in the blight.

He isn't crazy. He's just Canadian! :);)
Tasneem Gould
229. Latecomer
Forkroot, Gagecreed, Samadai, MoM, Insectiod - Bravo, well done! Those were some fantastic efforts.

Moiraine - remember that she was a Blue who had devoted her life to finding the Dragon Reborn - she's not going to let advice from his (young, clueless, unsophisticated) friends ruin something she's been waiting for all her life. And of course Aes Sedai DO manipulate people - even everyone's darling Verin was pretty bad in this area.

Kudos to her for realising that she was doing the wrong thing and changing her strategy - not every AS would or could do that.

Re. BA signs - agree that there are likely to be multiple. Halima gave Delana the sign - but did Delana give it back? Perhaps the sign means something like "You must obey me" whereas maybe the rubbing fingers might mean "I am BA" ??
Tricia Irish
230. Tektonica
Geez, I go out to finish the last holiday details, run through vast amounts of fossil fuel, scrum in the parking lots, stand in lines, forage for food, only to get home and find out I'm the evil one pointing fingers at Rand! Me! I've been defending him!
(Feigns outrage.)

AMW@192, Free@209, Sub @214, GCL@219, etc......

I was just saying that Perrin and Mat weren't the only ones not being all chummy. I certainly am in Rand's camp when it comes to not trusting. Moraine started that business in Fal Dara, causing Rand to try to push his friends away so he couldn't hurt them. And we know all about how helpful the AS have been to Rand....not. Trust is a rare commodity for him.

I totally get that they are just normal guys, good friends, and are truly there for each other. Mat and Perrin respond to Rand, and his requests/needs, each in their unique ways, and they come through for him. Actions speak louder than words, indeed.

I agree that the overriding theme of the whole series is cooperation and communication. No one has been particularly good at that, especially the Aes Sedai. I hope the guys have a good heart to heart, along with the SGs, and are standing together (metaphorically, at least) at TG. Otherwise, disaster!

SLF@194: Love the name explore the link, above at the 13thD on the Arthurian's good.

Free: Tried to give you a shout, but no box?? Confused, as usual.
Sam Mickel
231. Samadai
@ Various,
If you are trying to give a shout out to someone in their shoutbox, and they don't have one, then you need to become a follower of them. To do that, look at their profile and by their name click "follow".

Edit: Of course I just noticed after posting that, that they can make it so only the people they are following can see it, everybody, or just themselves.
Barry T
232. blindillusion
**Steps into the Bunker throwing Christmas confetti.**

Evening all. Just got back to SC-Town via Long Freaking Drive From the 'Sip. **Sigh** And I get to go back on Thursday. Oh well, my wife enjoyed me surprising her. **wicked grin** I do like to dabble in subterfuge. And she thought she wouldn't see me 'til Christmas.

Anyway, as I feel someone just bashed my head in with the driver's seat of an '09 Max (I know, I know) I'm going to take a serious 8 hour power nap...maybe. Insomnia might take issue with that plan.

I did enjoy the WoT-Christmas presented by Forkroot, Gagecreed, Samadai, MoM, & Insectiod.

And I'd like to jump right into the Mat discussion, but I feel that can wait. Tomorrow I'll try to read through all the posts.

And to all a Good Night.
Sam Mickel
233. Samadai
Brandon Sanderson posted on his Facebook page today, that he feels ToM needs to be longer than tGS. Also he said That a major plot line needs an overhaul. So it sounds like it might come later than originally thought.
Tasneem Gould
234. Latecomer
Longer than TGS? Good-o!

As long as it comes next year, I will be happy. In fact I won't quibble if it comes out JUST in time for Christmas either - I will have some peace and quiet to read it in.
Sam Mickel
235. Samadai
Oh yes, I wasn't complaining and I would love a longer book just in time for Christmas.
John Massey
236. subwoofer
@Sam, I think there are some minor drawbacks to- adding Free then you get access to his shout box plan.

I never said I was crazy, that must of been LTT.

ToM- I hope the plot line that gets an overhaul is the Aiel one. I was not happy that Rhuarc and all the clans became very disposable. Also we can reference current books that we are rereading and see that there are many Aiel characters that make up Rand's life. They all seem to go away to lesser degrees in the new book. I am hoping that BwS rewrites some of the secondary characters.

It's a blizzard outside. Again. Thankfully I am warm and snug inside and not putzing with power tools using frozen hands.

Would suck to be Santa ho-ing around in this weather. Even with Rudoph.

Sam Mickel
237. Samadai
sub, I realized the drawbacks after I posted.
Sam Mickel
238. Samadai
Sorry about this, but I am home alone and bored so, I present another fiction fiction story.

The cities were always so noisy A'lan thought, you can't even here yourself thinking. All we do is ride back and forth from giant city to giant city. No one stops to look outside at the beauty around us.
"I am sick of this meaningless life, there is no joys, no fun, everything is done orderly, with no thought." He complained to Jesa.
"Lets go on vacation and get away from all this for a while."
"I agree" Jesa said. "Lets travel to western Merk and visit Gold Rocks World Park, it is one of the worlds last wild areas."

A'lan and Jesa landed at the west entrance to the park early the following morning. " I finally feel free." He said, as they walked into the park. She smiled up at him and as usual he felt complete. He had met Jesa five years ago and from the first look knew there was a connection. When everything was calm and peaceful it was like there was something bonding them as one. He imagined their love as an eternal flame, and when it burnt brightest he imagined he could shut out the world and do anything. They were married in months.

They ventured out into the park with their supplies for a week. It was simply amazing everything they saw. On their fourth day out they were crossing an old rope bridge acroos the roaring river, when the rope broke and Jesa fell into the river.A'lan jumped in after her but the river was so swift it drug them both down rive very fast. As they were swept farther down river he could her a roar getting louder and louder, from the map he hadcarried he knew the great falls were getting closer. But no mattered how hard he tried, he could not catch up to Jesa. As they swept around the curve in front of them A'lan cought the first glimse of the falls. What am I going to do, he thought I have to save her somehow, he panicked. God help me, he thought, don't let her die. just at that moment he heard a tremendous crack as a giant tree fell down across the river in front of them. they both slammed into it and were able to hold on. They held on to the tree as they fought their way to the bank.
"A'lan, Look at this tree, it is like a big saw came out of nowhere and just lopped it off." Jesa said. He rose to his feet and went over to the stump to check it out. "weird" he said. "and it happened just as we needed it most."

"It's no coincidence" a voice said behind him. They both whirled around to find an old man and woman looking at them. " I felt what you did." he said, "you caused that tree to fall."

"Old man, what are you talking about?"

"Is this your first time?" "How do you Feel?" "my first time it almost scared me to death." Even though the man and woman were very old, their eyes were bright and they showed no signs of infirmity.

"come with us to our home and we will explain what happened." The old woman said. "you both are about to embark on a world changing journey." 'I saw your faces in the dream and knew you would change the world.

A'lan looked at them both as the old man said, " We will not hurt you, please come. My name is Ra'l Saidin and this is my wife Ra'l Saidar, they both mean the power within."

He looked at Jesa as she nodded at him. "okay," he said. " We will come with you. This is Jesa my wife and I am A'lan, A'lan Tamyrlin."
Tess Laird
240. thewindrose
Very nice Samadai:)
I find myself so busy right now. I took the week off from work to enjoy it with my kids. The weather is nearly perfect for those who enjoy out door winter sports(unlike poor sub with the subzero temps:( ). We have been skating, sleding and skiing. I am absolutly tired at night and find it hard to post. I have much more time when I am at work;)

It does sound like we are going to get a huge snow storm on the 24th/25th. We are fortunate in that we decided to stay home and celebrate Christmas just with ourselves. No traveling, and no worring about anyone trying to reach us. For all of you who are traveling I hope you have safe journeys and for everyone may you have a blessed time or just enjoy your selves:)

Hey, someting related to the chapters -
"This audience is at an end," Rand said. "I will forget every face that departs now."
I like how he was still in control here. Still being politically astute and thinking straight. It becomes painful as he slides more into the 'I am steel' mode.
Rob Munnelly
241. RobMRobM
Congrats to all for the musical and poetic entertainment. I've been mostly silent but very appreciative on this thread.

Regarding the chapters, I love Chapter 5 and agree it is a nice, kick butt, set piece. Chapter 6, not so much.

John Massey
242. subwoofer
hmmmmm... it is a pity that we had to break off here for Christmas. There are some chapters coming up with Mat that have a lot going on it it. A few weeks worth of discussion anyways.

@Sam, good times. Being home alone... beware of random burglars breaking in. Hot Wheels and cans o paint fend them off.

@Teck -burn all the fossil fuel you want, I'll produce more;)

Here's a question- would Randland be better off united under the Seanchan throne? Hawkwing did it and it was the only time of peace since the Breaking. What would be so bad about ending civil war and strife? Also, as mentioned, AS and everything Power related are to be forgotten at the end of this age so it would stand to reason that the Monarchy would be the type that does not support free use of the Source.

Matthew Smith
243. blocksmith restored and able to sit down and make it through these comments...just in time for an extended vacation and spending quality time with the family.


Good point, but they all know about other's "STD". Perrin and Mat know about Rand channeling and likely going insane. Rand knows about Mat's knowledge and visits to the Ael/Eelfinn. Both Mat and Rand know about the wolves. Motivations for not talking could be a little bit of fear and a lot of respecting each other's privacy.


Loved It!


I can attest to the global warming...more than 14 inches of snow on the ground and temps not above freezing in about 10 days. I am sweating GCL's WOT dingle balls off here...because the heat is turned up so high trying to keep the pipes from freezing.


One other instance of the dagger use...when Fain retrieves it from the WT storeroom he triggers an alarm that is responded to by an Accepted? who he then slices and turns into a bubbling pile of black goo which Alviarin than distastefully steps over.


Great work by everyone on the poems and songs, but Fork, you stole the show. Very well done.


I sympathize with the crazy pace of the holidays but better reason to spend quality time with those you love. My kids are growing up before my eyes and I am desperately trying to keep them young.

Merry Christmas to all and a Happy and Safe and Healthy New Year.
Darth Touma
244. alreadymadwithwolves
I don't believe Mat and Rand know about Perrin's connection to the wolves. Perrin doesn't know about Mat's finnland trips and generalling abilities either.
245. Freelancer

Last things first. Because of privacy settings, I need to be following you so that you can see my shoutbox. Confusing, to say the least. So, I'm following now, shout away.

And I fully acknowledged that you were on Rand's side. My bit was about you wanting to say Men!, when those very conditions were aided quite strongly by women. Zallumsain. Unless it was a typo, and you were intending to say Amen!, in which case, Gwaan!

Maiane Bakroeva
246. Isilel
Now, what's all this with sudden Moiraine dissing? Obviously, she is not without flaws, but I don't see how she could have been more forthcoming until TDR at the earliest.

First of all, she was fairly sure that Rand was the DR, but not 100% sure, so it was much safer to keep her mouth shut until it was proven beyond doubt.
And secondly, the Duopotamians would have run away screaming (and probably gotten themselves killed), if they had known what she was about.
Note how often they, and particularly Mat, blab or are about to blab some damaging stuff to agents of the Shadow in tEoTW and TGH, despite Moraine's injunctions to be discreet.

Now, in TGH after the Eye furnished the final proofs, Moiraine is actually honest to Rand - but it doesn't help at all, because he doesn't want to believe her (naturally), is steeped in anti-AS prejudices and laps up those parts of Ishy's diatribes that support his prejudices.

Dressing Rand as a lord (and making him second in command of the mission) wasn't about separating him from his friends - Moiraine didn't think that they'd stay the course once they knew about Rand, but she wasn't chasing them away.
Instead, it was to force Rand to learn leadership and how to move among the nobility. Something that he needed, but didn't want to do.
Also, not accompanying him was supposed to prove to him that his DR-ness was indeed Pattern at work and not AS tricks and that he couldn't escape his destiny.
A bit risky, but then Moiraine probably had a somewhat inflated opinion of Rand's self-defense capabilities after the Eye and the Tarwin's Gap.

So, until TDR at least, I really can't fault Moiraine's choices. It is unfortunate, but honesty couldn't (and didn't) work at these points.

Now in TDR, I believe that Moiraine was also relatively honest when she told Rand that he needed to wait for a sign of the Pattern (and has been proven correct).
Unfortunately, Rand didn't realize that she herself wasn't all-knowing and was essentially, winging it ;). Also, he was angry at his predicament and Moiraine provided a convenient target.
Where I fault Moiraine here, is that she didn't use the months to begin teaching Rand what he needed to become a proper DR.

But that's my issue with all of the Big Six - their explosive rise to badassness/prominence starting in TDR would have felt much less jarringly Deus ex Machina to me if the "lost" months between TGH and TDR had been used for hard training. Which could have been alluded to in a couple of sentences. Oh, well.
At least, we should count our blessings that in this early book we didn't have to suffer through months of uneventful floundering in the snow, as we would have in a later volume ;).

Anyway, back to Moiraine. Where she actually failed hard is in TSR, IMHO. She failed to notice the change in Rand and adjust her MO, whereas his idiotic escapade in TDR terrified her and made her controlling.
Re: Thom, yes, she did chase him away, because he was working towards settling Rand in Tear, while Rand needed to move. See above.

Anyway, yes, in TSR mutual honesty could have finally worked, because Rand grew up so much, he even offered it when they met at the redstone doorframe ter'angrial. But Moiraine wasn't that far. She also missed the significance of Aiel being "people of the Dragon" and the implications of it. Well, nobody is perfect.

Generally, I feel that while Moiraine's advice was much criticized, it turned out to be correct in general, if not in particulars. She thought that Rand needed a people firmly behind him, that he needed to move fast, that nations needed to be convinced to follow, rather than forced, that trying to force fulfillment of the prophecies could strain the Pattern.
While it seemed at the time that she was wrong about the latter 2 things, the later books and particularly TGS somewhat vindicate her opinions, IMHO.
Bill Reamy
247. BillinHI
subwoofer @242: re Randland better off question: While I tend to agree with whoever said the best form of government was a benevolent dictatorship, you have to find a dictator who is benevolent and who stays that way. I don't recall just where in the series, but it was stated that along with its good points, Hawkwing's empire had its bad points as well, like overly harsh punishment for even the smallest infraction of the law, which included, I believe, thinking that Hawkwing was not the best ruler. Ditto with the Seanchan: many good points but some really bad points as well: slavery, etc. And I don't know that it has been stated by Jordan or Sanderson that access to the One Power goes away after Tarmon Gaidon. Obviously we have speculated on it here, but is there a canonical answer somewhere?
Darth Touma
248. ValMar
Hi everyone! Been lurking here since the very begining, and leeching from the wisdom being dispensed by the resident gurus...

Every time I wanted to post, someone already expressed what I wanted to say, and in a better way. Frankly, probably the quality of the posting has intimidated me somewhat.
The last case being Isilel's eloquent defense of Moiraine. Especially regarding her motives for some of her actions, like dressing up Rand or sending Thom away. The last would not have been easy for her, in presonal terms.

From now on I hope I can add to the discussion.
Matthew Smith
249. blocksmith

Mat, if not "knows", definitely highly suspects based on the journey to Falme in TGH when Rand and Hurin disappear and suddenly Perrin turns into a sniffer. And never said Perrin knew about Mat's trips to the A/E world.

My point was they have some knowledge of what the others are going through, in some cases very specific and detailed knowledge, but choose to only briefly inquire about it, if it all, and leave it alone thereafter. It is a conscious decision by all of them.
Tricia Irish
250. Tektonica
Free@245: No apology necessary! I was trying to be funny with my "outrage", which is sometimes hard in just words, no gestures, facial expressions, etc.
As for men! , lord knows, I love 'em! Amen!

Isilel@246: Bravo! Well put. Glad you are feeling better, wondered where you'd wandered off to.....Have a great holiday!

ValMar@248: Welcome! Fresh blood!! ;) They play pretty nicely here.

OK, enough fun here on my break.... back to the kitchen and wrap table......
John Massey
251. subwoofer
Cool beans!!

'Tis the season. Warning country Christmas ahead.

Edit for beans;)

See- I edit...

Darth Touma
252. alreadymadwithtornnations
No issues with Mo here. She did her best and things turned out for the best. For everyone.

First off, the dressing part came way before everything else. If the idea was to make Rand more comfortable moving among the nobility, why only him? Wouldn't such a lesson also be useful for those who would turn out to be vital to his success? Moiraine already knew that all three were ta'veren and would have important parts to play. Making him second in command of the posse produced the intended result of Rand getting hands on experience in the difficulties of being a leader. Getting him new clothes was intended to hide the residues of saidin that any curious Aes Sedai could detect. Doing it so that only he would learn to be comfortable "moving about the nobility" was a fail on her part. Look at Perrin and Mat now. I don't believe they would have had less use of such a lesson as Rand had.

Yes, she told Rand he needed to wait for a Sign from the Pattern. What she did not tell him was that she was moving pawns from the background so that he would have a ready set of followers. That was the sign she was waiting for. Trusting that she knew what was supposed to happen next and that Rand's ta'veren pulling would pull her pieces to place while keeping Rand ignorant of what she was doing. Fail. As of TGH she has already admitted that AS manipulations mean nothing to RMP's ta'veren effect. Yet she still tried to pull strings. The Pattern invalidated her efforts once more. By "accidentally" opening a way out of the small encampment she had esconsced them in. And Rand, no longer able to resist, ran off on his own. I can even prove Rand running off was the will of the Pattern. Even on foot he still managed to stay ahead of them while they were on horses. How convenient that such an innate ability would manifest itself at that particular time, yet afterwards Rand would always stay mounted. Furthermore, the Aiel congregated at Tear in no small part due to Perrin telling Gaul that Rand was heading there.

Rand was already planning what to do next, yet her best move was to try to keep Rand ignorant. As if somehow, despite not being born according to prophecy herself, she would have a better understanding of what needs to be done. She would have had him move on Illian right away. When even months later a better prepared Rand still just barely won by the skin of his teeth over a prepared Sammael. Did she expect the armies of Tear to take care of everything upto and including Sammael himself? Did she expect Rand to somehow even the odds with sheer channeling ability thru Callandor?

In total some of her advice did turn out good. As advice tend to go. Some were just plain bad though. Rand's reply to the nations needing to be convinced to follow him was right on the money. Some would follow him voluntarily, as Berelain and Mayene did. Some would only pretend to follow him, as Tear and its High Lords would. And some would tear themselves apart deciding which, as in Tarabon.
James Jones
253. jamesedjones
252. AMW

Well said. All of it was great, and I definitely couldn't have said it better.
Sam Mickel
254. Samadai
I love Moraine as much as the rest of you do, but lets remember what she said to Egwene. Egwene asked her why she is suddenly doing everything Rand asks of her, and she says because I remembered how to control Saidar. So, while she has surrendered to Rands authority, she only did it to maintain some form of control over him.
Bonnie Andrews
255. misfortuona
Exactly, and
Sneaky AS. You can't even trust the one's you like. Just the way it was intended. :)
Roger Powell
256. forkroot
One of my disappointments with TGS was that the Moiraine rescue sequence didn't occur in that book; furthermore Cadsuane is on the "outs" now with Rand (although I suppose there is a chance for some reconciliation based on Rand's epiphany).

I would just love to see Moiraine and Cadsuane face off on who gets to be Rand's "advisor". Especially since Moiraine thinks Cadsuane is probably BA and Cadsuane thinks Moiraine was a complete screw-up with Rand. Boy would the sparks fly!

Here's hoping we see that confrontation.
Rob S
257. RobSS
Re 256

I would love to see Moraine hold her ground
Barry T
258. blindillusion
Various RE:~ Moiraine.

While I cannot wait for the meeting of Moiraine and Cadsuane, I'm starting the think it might not be all that dramatic.

Considering where Moiraine will be coming from, and the world she's going to be coming back to, I'd wager a great deal that she's going to have very little patience with the whole scenario.

Now I'm hoping Moiraine blandly tells Cadsuane to do what she intends to do and get it over with so more important things can take place.

With Rand's Moment of Zen having finally occurred on Dragonmount, he's ripe for some serious laughter and tears talk.

edit: I zigged when I should have zagged.
Alice Arneson
259. Wetlandernw
subwoofer... fossil fuel... LOL. My husband thinks I'm nuts, laughing at my computer.... Nothing new there.

Isilel @ 246 - Well said. For all that hindsight showed that some of Moiraine's choices were less than ideal, and some were flat-out wrong, she did the best she could with what she had. (In this fantasy, there are no characters who are infallible, after all.) Given the relative immaturity and naivete' of "the kids" during her too-limited time with them, being all up-front and honest too soon would probably have gotten them killed. And they're all only human, after all. They ALL made some good choices and some bad ones. The only major fault I find with her was that it took her too long to realize that she might not always be there for them, and she should have started earlier to train them toward independence.

ValMar @248 - Welcome!! And post away - we love new input!
Alice Arneson
260. Wetlandernw
Another thought on Moiraine... I keep forgetting that for all her expected lifespan, she's only 42 at the start of the books. And for all her AS training, you still need experience to know the right way to interact most effectively with various personalities. I'm older now than she was in these books, and I sure wouldn't know how best to influence three 20-ish guys with widely different personalities in an apocalyptic scenario! I'd just have to do the best I could, and have faith in the Pattern. Hmmm. More or less what she does.
Julian Augustus
261. Alisonwonderland
Moiraine already knew that all three were ta'veren and would have important parts to play.

Excellent analysis. Nevertheless, I must differ on a major point of your narrative. As of TGH, the first part of the quote above is correct, but the second is incorrect. She had not yet clued in that ALL THREE were important for Tarmon Gaidon. Refer to the discussion between her, Siuan and Verin about what to do with Rand. She wanted to hold on to Rand because he was the DR, but she didn't particularly care what the other boys did.

It was only in TDR, after the gray men attacked Perrin in the common room in Illian, that she finally clued in that the other two were ALSO important. If I remember correctly, one of the attackers mentioned something about knocking off one leg of the tripod to cause the whole thing to topple, which is what made the light bulb go off in Moiraine's head.

I believe she specifically stated after this incident that she had been foolish not to realize what it meant to have three ta'veren of roughly the same age growing up together in the same village.

So, her early singling out of Rand for preferential treatment was not due to willful manipulation, but due to the fact that she had encountered an unprecedented situation and not realized its significance. She's only human, after all.
craig thrift
262. gagecreedlives
Another nice story Samadai. Well done


Im not sure about Randland being better off under the seanchan even if the one power slaves are taken out of the question. If the common people aren’t even supposed to look at their leaders I doubt they get much of a say in how their lives are run. It could be worse I guess but what price would you pay to make sure the steam wagons run on time.


Welcome back. And I knew there was another example I had forgotten.


I agree with most of what your saying but I disagree somewhat with your point about Moiraine making Rand learn leadership. Definitely that was part of it, probably the largest part but I am pretty certain she would know how the other 2 boys would react and was fostering that so Rand would become isolated and she would be there to be a confidant and advisor. Didn’t work.

And to give Moiraine her due she does seem to be one of the few people in the series that recognises that she has made mistakes. The most notable for me is when she starts thinking on how she underestimated the possible importance of 3 taveren coming from the same village.


Welcome. Would you like a dingle ball? I think I have a few still floating around somewhere


I am thinking that the Cadsuane/Moiraine catch up might be a bit of an inversion from the Nynaeve/Moiraine showdown from way back in EotW after Nynaeve had tracked them to the Stag and Lion. Although part of me kind of hopes for a Sorilea vs Amys old fashioned smack down.

And last day of work before a bit of a Christmas break :) However that comes with a downside that I will probably not be able to access the internet. So if I don’t get a chance later I just wanna wish everybody a merry Christmas and a happy new year. Don’t do anything I wouldn’t enjoy and stay safe.
Barry T
263. blindillusion
Wetlandernw RE:~ Moiraine's 42 years.

It's sometimes hard to recall that Moiraine is such a young woman in the Grand Scheme of Things. She's accomplished quite a bit.

I'm really hoping her Intro coincides with the Outro of Rand's List by about 1 paragraph.

I never did get around to talking about the 3 things I've always disliked about aCoS, but that List is one of them.

Sure, I'm starting to appreciate this book more as a result of the re-read, but the last time I actually read every word I think I was around 20 or 21. Quite a bit has happened in the ensuing years.
Richard Fife
264. R.Fife
Happy Holidays. Been busy with the bussle, so haven't been around, but I did take the time to make this for all y'all. Enjoy.

The Asha'man Xmas Song

Taim, Dashiva, and Logain sing their own version of the Chipmunk Xmas Song. This might very well have involved the True Power.
Thomas Keith
265. insectoid
The True Power? Run away... run away!!

Bonnie Andrews
266. misfortuona
Dear Heavens, Fife has returned and in true form has written us a new song. Unfortunatly it seems to have a glitch and at least up here in the blight it won't come up.
Now I'm twitching again since I enjoyed the last one so much. Sob!
John Massey
267. subwoofer
Got my garlic, got my crucifix, got my holy water. Let 'er rip, Fifester:)

Edit- Got my beer, got my chips, got my Lay-Z Boy. Let 'er rip, Fifester:)

Bonnie Andrews
268. misfortuona
ROFL well that was... entertaining. I'll never hear the chipmunks the same again.

Interesting time in the bunker tonight. LOL
Sam Mickel
269. Samadai
Very good, Now we know for sure that Saidin has driven you crazy. :()
Sam Mickel
270. Samadai
Sub, can I come to the bunker for the party? I made a whole bunch of candy. 2 kinds of fudge, almond roca, peanut brittle, carrot cake, butterscotch haystacks.(As I said, I was bored last night.) I just received 2 bottles of whiskey from one of our vendors that I could bring. I could bring along my stories if people like.
271. Lily of the Valley
*fidgets* I couldn't resist. Here's my contribution to our Wotmas playlist. :) Sing it to "God Bless Thee Merry Gentlemen".

Light bless thee merry re-readers
Let nothing you dismay
For Leigh our Fearless Leader
Will post for us this day
To save us all from boredom while
The next book we await

O comments that make us all laugh
Make us all laugh
O comments that make us all laugh

We gather ‘round this site named Tor
To theorize and converse
With GCL and Subwoofer
It’s hard to stay on course
And luckily our gurus and 13D are our main source

For everything to do with the books
With the books
For everything to do with the books

Now Towers of Midnight
Is due out in Twenty-Ten
But we don’t know if we can stand
To wait around ‘til then
To find out what happens to Mat and Perrin

O please Brandon finish the books soon
Finish them soon
O please Brandon finish the books soon
Alice Arneson
272. Wetlandernw

"You want to know that Aes Sedai are good and pure, that it was those wicked men of the legends who caused the Breaking of the World, not the women. Well, it was the men, but they were no more wicked than any men. They were insane, not evil. The Aes Sedai you will find in Tar Valon are human, no different from any other women except for the ability that sets us apart. They are brave and cowardly, strong and weak, kind and cruel, warm-hearted and cold. Becoming an Aes Sedai will not change you from what you are." - The Eye of the World, Chapter 13, Choices; Moiraine to Egwene.

I came across this paragraph last night and it reminded me of something I've been thinking about regarding some of the discussion here. One of the characteristics about the Wheel of Time is that, both good and bad, all the characters are merely human. (Excepting, of course, the Creator and the Dark One, but they aren't on screen much. And Bela.) Most don't have access to the One Power, but a significant proportion do. It's only about 1% (according to RJ), but still that's one in every 100 people on average. That's far more than you have in most fantasy worlds (that I'm familiar with, anyway), making it much more "common" than we're accustomed to seeing. It's also set up as less a "magic system" and more a genetically-limited ability to access a natural force.

The outcome of this setup is the lack of "super-heroes" and "super-villains" that we sometimes like to see. The Aes Sedai, instead of being awesome and nearly perfect, turn out to be merely human with longer lives and some abilities most people don't have. Then all these other channelers turn up, who have just as long (or longer) lives and the same abilities, though often with different strengths.

On the other side, the Forsaken, instead of being supremely evil and villanous, turn out to be humanly nasty and petty with longer lives and some abilities most people don't have. They have some knowledge, and a tiny bit of technology, that is generally unavailable in this age, but that is in some measure balanced by some new things that have been invented in the last 3000 years.

Someone mentioned this before - I'd give you credit but I can't find it just now. We were introduced to both the Aes Sedai and the Forsaken in the first book as figures of legend, the way the stories had come down to the kids from Emonds Field. Both were perceived as being super-human, virtually god-like in their power and knowledge. Over the course of the books we, along with the kids, are finding that they aren't quite everything the stories make them. As the saying goes, "they have to put their pants on one leg at a time" just like everyone else. Both good and evil, they are only human, they make human mistakes, they have human personality traits, they have human strengths and weaknesses.

The thing I find most interesting about it now is the reader reaction to this little phenomenon. Some people really like it, while others are very disappointed to lose the perceived superiority of those who were supposed to be greater. What do y'all think? Fire away!

(Hey, that didn't get as long as I thought it would! Will wonders never cease?)
Alice Arneson
273. Wetlandernw
Lily - Too funny!!! I may never be able to sing that with a straight face again... Hopefully everyone will just put it down to enjoying the song, if I can only keep from actual giggling.

Edit: I'm hoping to contribute "The 12 Days of Christmas" on the appropriate days, but only if I have time to finish it... and enough brain-power later tonight after the Lessons & Carols service...
Darth Touma
274. ValMar
Thanks for all the welcomes.

gagecreedlives, thanks but I haven't got a clue what dingle ball is, or much of the other stuff like that being mentioned here. Probably because I'm not North American.
Re Seanchan rule. One interesting aspect of the aristocratic attitudes of the Seanchan is that their nobles don't really concern themselves with the commoners, I think. E.g. a Tairen lord would gleefully abuse a maid. A Seanchan would never "lower" himself so low as to lay with a commoner. It is for the wrong reasons, and there is the slavery, but still... Their nobility does seem to live a parallel existence to the rest of the population, more so than Earth's or Randland's.

Re Moiraine, her right and wrong decisions have already been mentioned. What she has always done has been with one goal- defeat of the DO.

Her singleminded approach has been one of her main strenghts and faults, IMHO. She was a bit too focused and occasionally didn't see the wood for the trees. E.g.letting Fain slip, Perrin slip (good consequences), driving the boys too hard and losing trust replacing it with antagonism. Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

But I can see why she made those decisions and looking at the other AS, without Moiraine the story would have been much shorter and without the happy end I'm patiently awaiting :)

This turned out longer than anticipated. It's Christmas Eve here already. Thanks for reading.
John Massey
275. subwoofer
All are invited to the OG Bunker! Heck, I'm not the doorman. We bar none here! If anybody has the IF, they can trek up north here to the borderlands and check stuff out. For the love of all that is holy, somebody madealmond roca?! I am there, let the drink fest begin:P

@ValMar, you don't have to come from here to know what a dingle ball is. It just "is". C'mon join in the fun :)

Barry T
276. blindillusion
Wetlandernw RE:~ They're only human.

I've always liked the way Mr Jordan set all this up. I believe I'm one of the people who has mentioned a couple of times how human they are (at least in regards to the Forsaken. It couldn't be more obvious that the AS are simply normal people with a slight they typically void with those Oaths they take. It's all a matter of Legend. The Truth makes the Mystique rather amusing, if you ask me. ;))

And, it's never really surprised me that the Forsaken continue to fail, sometimes even worse than their New Era counterparts. After all, Great Power + A Heightened Ego - A Certain Realization the Your Enemy is Ever BIT as Powerful as You / Any Real Competence = Our 13(-6(-1(?))) Forsaken.


Also, Lily ~ Very Nice

And Fife..err..I wanted to listen to your song but Youtube doesn't want to let me.
craig thrift
277. gagecreedlives
Lily of the Valley@271

I don’t think I’ve ever heard God Bless Thee Merry Gentlemen. But I already prefer your rendition.

And Sub apparently we stray people of course. Cooool

Looking forward to the 12 days of Christmas wetlander.


Im not North American either and it took me a little while to figure out what they where talking about. But if you go to google images and enter tor dingle ball you will see what it is.

And I am about to finish work. See you all on the flipside
278. Lily of the Valley
Wetlandernw: I've had the song stuck in my head for two days now! The first verse just sorta magically replaced itself with Re-Read relevant things when I was doing dishes.

GCL: How sad, it's one of my favorite Christmas carols! Here's a lovely version by Nat King Cole. Hope YouTube lets you see it. :)
Alice Arneson
279. Wetlandernw
Doing dishes... ah, yes, one of my favorite times to compose WoT-related things. Something about the hands being busy and the mind being free to wander.
Thomas Keith
280. insectoid
Just finished my share of wrapping. ::ahhh::

Lily @271: ::applauds:: Bravo!

Bonnie Andrews
281. misfortuona
Lily @ 271
Very well done. Applause!!!

I had some ideas for the 12 days going through my head, but I'm far more interested in hearing your version than comming up with something I'd actually consider worth sharing here.

Stick with Youtube. It took me about twenty trys to finally get it to play Fife's new work. It's as humorous as you might expect.
Bonnie Andrews
282. misfortuona
Oh and ValMar
Welcome! I have only recently come out of lurker status myself, and I have been warmly welcomed by all. Pull up a keyboard, pour a drink, and let the Gurus guide your fingertips.
Barry T
283. blindillusion
Merry Christmas everyone!!!

I couldn't let the Mimicry go on without my input as this was once a favorite pastime of mine back in college. Below is a simple little dabble in the craft. I'd like to thank everyone above for making me want to get back in the game.

Oh, the below is not only one of my favorite Christmas songs, but also one of my favorite compositions. Here is a truly wonderful rendition of the song. And here is the reason I love it.

My contribution:

Hark! how her posts
Sweet silver posts
All seem to say,
“Dispel dismay.”
Leigh Butler is here
Go grab a beer
For young and old
This is Foretold.

Ding, dong, ding, dong
This is her song
With joyful quirks
These are the perks
One gets to read
Entering this creed
From ev'rywhere
Making us share.

Oh watch her type,
Filling the hype,
O'er Net and Mail,
Telling her tale,
Gaily she types
Through all our gripes
Posts of great cheer
Leigh Butler is here
Merry, merry, merry, merry Re-Read
Merry, merry, merry, merry Re-Read

On, on she'll send
World without End
Her awesome words
For all us nerds!!!

Ding, dong, ding, dong.

edit: 2 + 8 + 3 = 13 **chuckles foolishly**
Bonnie Andrews
284. misfortuona
Bravo!! Applause!! Cheers, and gasps of awe!
Speaking as one of those nerds. That's absolutly amazing. Your college days were not wasted. =D

Edit: Oh yes and one of my favorites as well.
Tess Laird
285. thewindrose
Ahem, one of my favorite composers(I do have many),
but here's winter.
Ron Garrison
286. Man-0-Manetheran
“What do y'all think?” Wetlander, I think you’re terrific! One of the things that makes these books so great is that we get real characters “warts and all.”

WoT is a great heroic tale, and a hallmark of heroic tales is a main character who is a “regular” guy or gal who is required to do some task that he thinks beyond him. This task is always of great import - like saving the world and/or challenging the gods - and frequently there is NO ONE ELSE who can do this task. Through a variety of circumstances and challenges, the protagonist finds that he does have the strength.

In WoT we actually have a large group of characters who will have the opportunity to become heroes: Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve (and Verin, Bela, and Moiraine and so many more). In WoT there are even groups who have the opportunity to perform heroic acts: Aes Sedai, the Kin, the Aiel, the Sea Folk, etc. A second important element to the hero tale is that our hero(es) must overcome their weaknesses. In other words, if the characters have no weaknesses, then there is no story, no triumph, no hero. With the Aes Sedai, for instance, RJ shows us that they are not the invincible creatures their reputation has named them, and in doing so he sets up the opportunity for them to redeem themselves and perform heroic acts.

- OK, that’s my Joseph Campbell in a couple paragraphs - now back to the important stuff: great holiday song parodies and drinkin’ in the bunker!
Darth Touma
288. chinbawambi
Went shopping at B&N for a good many of my gifts in the never-ending quest to keep my friends and family literate and made sure I got a new copy of my missing books 2-5! I'm up to Shadar Logath where our boys meet Mordeth - Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!
Thomas Keith
289. insectoid
Blind @283: ::clapping:: Wonderful! It's one of my faves too. :)

Alice Arneson
290. Wetlandernw
Carol of the Bells has always been one of my favorites, especially the original composition. Did you know that (in the original) that four-note theme is in EVERY measure of the piece? It changes around to different parts, and all sorts of cool things happen around it, but it's there, identical, in every measure. Some composers truly amaze me - to create such a beautiful piece of music around a four-note ostinato.... Wow.

And of course, blindillusion, good job on the new lyrics. What a talented bunch! (Except... Hey, who are you calling a nerd? Huh? Oh... well... yeah, okay.)
Darth Touma
291. sweetlilflower
@272, Wetlandernw

I would argue that the reason this series is so popular is that there are so many identifiable characters in these books. Pretty much every person in the world can identify, to some extent, with at least one character. And, as time goes by, one person may identify with multiple characters. Maybe you start out really understanding one of the younger characters, but then, 15 years later, you really start to get the "older" charcter's POVs.

I know when I forst started reading these books I thought Moiraine was a b*tch, but now, re-reading the series, I can more fully understand her motivations.

Ya feel me?
Barry T
292. blindillusion
You know...sss4749 doesn't really know much about footwear. Nike makes horrible shoes that tend to fall apart after about 3 months and I don't think I'd ever actually run in a pair of Puma. As for skateboarding in them...I think I'd rather take an ax to my board, burn the pieces and bury said pieces in a salt filled hole. Chucks are meant for skateboarding and Vans are meant for fashion and comfort. Sheesh. People and their peculiarities.

Anywho, thank you everyone for your kinds words. One does try to post worthy additions to this wonderful little world we have going here.

And Wetlandernw **chuckles dryly**. I thought of about 4 different ways to end my contribution, but that one just stuck with me. After all, while Punk is one of the key words I use to describe myself, I'm quite honored to know that many people would most likely ascribe that word to me as well. Though it would perhaps be rather far down the list...number 18 at least.

And by the by, if you could happen to turn me in the direction of the original composition of Carol of the Bells I would be most grateful. I'm not sure if I've ever heard it. Perhaps I have and didn't realize it.

edit: 2 + 9 + 2 = 13 **chuckles foolishly**
Tess Laird
293. thewindrose
I love me some Pachelbel - here is a (newesh) take on it with the Trans-Siberian Orchestra with kids(some annoying commercails first)!!
Christmas Canon.
Alice Arneson
294. Wetlandernw
blindillusion @ 292 - Look for an acapella choir recording. I just found one on itunes by the Westminster Choir that sounds like the real thing (from the few seconds they let you play). It's got to be a full choir to get the bell-like effect of the ostinato. (In other words, I don't think it works very well with a small ensemble.) When other people have done their own arrangements, they've used the melody and the general harmony, but most of them lose the ostinato. (Probably most of them don't realize it's there in the first place, or don't care... Some of us are wierd about these things.)

Okay, so that's totally off WoT-topic, but I love music. Especially acapella choral music. And I think I blew my WoT-wad earlier with that post about the humanness of the superpowers... And now it's Christmas Eve where I live, and I should be in bed...

Happy Christmas, everyone!!
Thomas Keith
295. insectoid
Blind @291: Got 13 twice in one night! Spooky ;)

Richard Fife
296. R.Fife
The original "Carol of the Bells" is "shchedryk". The translation is actually about a little bird telling a person of the fortunes of the coming year (and was meant to be sung really late into winter around the new year of the Ukrainian pagans)

As to the Canon: Pachelbel Rant
Maiane Bakroeva
297. Isilel
Happy Christmas!


thanks, but you must have been confusing me with somebody else. I wasn't sick, just a bit more silent than usual :). These walls o' text require some effort and periods of undisturbedness to write, so...

AMW @252:

re: Moiraine

As has been already noted, she didn't understand the significance of Mat and Perrin until late in TDR. The situation was pretty unprecedented. Also, IIRC even Siuan didn't see ta'veren glow around them at that point.
So, while Moiraine knew that Rand had to learn leadership and dealing with nobility, she couldn't know that the other boys also needed it.
As to change of clothes for all 3, among other things it was probably about removing possible locator weaves.

TDR: huh? There is zero evidence that she was recruiting followers for Rand, though I don't see why it would have been wrong for her to do so.
IMHO she just didn't know what to do next and was waiting for a sign from the Pattern.
Nor do I see why we should excuse Rand's idiocy in trying to go it alone and nearly dooming the world so many times without a good reason.

TSR: keeping Rand ignorant? It wasn't mainly about that. Instead, Moiraine and Rand had a real philosophical difference. Moiraine thought that trying to fulfill the prophecies on purpose would be dangerous and that instead one should act on rational grounds and/or follow the signs the Pattern gives. And while for a while it seemed that she was wrong, TGS vindicated her view somewhat. Rand, of course, thought the opposite.

Also, if Aiel weren't available, then going for Illian with the army of Tear and Callandor would have been the best option. Rand took Ishy with Callandor, why not Sammael?

Wetlandernw @272:

Yes, it is one of the series strengths that characters are human. Though, many of the fans seem to think that the Dragon is not and can do no wrong ;).
But there is human and there is implausibly dumb. And I am afraid that most of the WoT villains belong to the latter category. Not compared to their myth, but to historical RL examples, I am sorry to say. Honestly, any number of major 20th century tyrants would have torn the FS apart without breaking a sweat. Which is disappointing.

Ditto the AS dumbing down. In the early books they are human and flawed, yes, but it is feasible that they could survive and operate in a generally hostile world. Even somebody like Liandrin and Elaida, who had very obvious flaws. But later cretins like Kiruna or Joline? Should have darwinated out long ago, unless they spent all their lives hiding in the Tower.
Bonnie Andrews
298. misfortuona
Isilel @297
Merry Christmas. I agree with most of what you had to say, and as always it is eloquantly put. That said, and at risk of sounding like one of the fans who can see the Dragon as doing no wrong, I don't think that I would call his attempts to 'go it alone' as idiocy. Misdirected and wrong yes, but not idiotic. He's been told that he is destined to fight and die at the last battle, and can expect to go insane and kill everyone around him. I don't think I'd be in a big hurry to drag my friends, or casual aquaintances into that with me.
The fact that it took him so long to work out that he needed help,that we could call idiocy. IMO.

I especially liked "But later cretins like Kiruna or Joline? Should have darwinated out long ago, unless they spent all their lives hiding in the Tower."

Hope you are having a safe and enjoyable holiday season. :)
Darth Touma
299. ValMar
gagecreedlives, subwoof, probably my wonderful mastery of the English language hides the fact that it's not my mother tongue and that I have some blank spots ;) Anyway, I saw the picture of the famous dingle ball, very pretty.

MoM@286, the point you make is fundamental, that for the story to be good there need to be weaknesses and conflicts in the protagonists, unless I misunderstand you. That makes the whole experience more rewarding for me personally. After all, this is epic fantasy, not children's fairy tale.

Isilel@297. Yes, Moiraine was making reasonable decisions with the info she had. We have more info than she and is easy for us to say what she had to do instead.
As for the "stupidity" of some AS, I think in the world before the shake up of the Dragon, Forsaken, Aiel, Seanchan, etc., they could get away with it. Now many AS find themselves out of their depth.

Val M
Tess Laird
300. thewindrose
R.Fife @ 264
That was funny! Asha'man chipmunks:)
(I thought the DO protected those men he favored from taint insaneness?)

R.Fife @296 -
Oh man, I have tears coming from my eyes, I am laughing so hard. Where do you find this stuff:)
Ron Garrison
301. Man-0-Manetheran
@299 ValMar
You understood me perfectly! And welcome to the board!
Bonnie Andrews
302. misfortuona
good job on grabbing 3 hunny. I won't tell Sub.
Also are you hinting that Fife is favored by the DO. He's done such a good job of hiding it.

I've enjoyed reading your posts. Hope you have a great holiday season. :)
Marcus W
303. toryx
Hi all:

Still not reading the summaries or comments but I wanted to wish everyone a Happy Holidays. Be safe!

John Massey
304. subwoofer
Harumph! Testing, testing, is this thing on? Er, to the Stump, Merry Christmas to all, will post again here as I am under the gun from my wife! Thank God I can type like a champion.

Whew! I've got 40 people descending upon my house tomorrow! I think it was intentional. I am sure at the end of the day it will be fun if the house is still standing.

Anywho, I will attempt to post later, wife permitting, but you guys know how I feel about all of ya! Good times had by all. Blanket invite to the Bunker, maybe I will hunker down there and hide from the relatives. At the very least, sneak out for a quick sip of my stash. Can't let the kids see Uncle Sub's secret to keeping a holiday smile on :)

@Wind- no worries! You are loved. Just a little gassy. :P

Alice Arneson
306. Wetlandernw
Happy Christmas, everyone! I hope you all have a safe and joyful celebration. You're the best!
Sam Mickel
307. Samadai
Merry Christmas to all my re-read friends. I wish you joy and happiness and hope you get everything you want from this day. It has been truly my honor to (meet) you all.

Darth Touma
308. alreadymadwithmoiraine
Alisonwonderland @261
Moiraine did not pick up on it right away, but for what other reason would the Pattern spin out ta'veren other than that they would have parts to play? Ta'veren are spun out as correcting mechanisms. So that their reality altering effects can ensure that the Pattern weaves as it should. They may not necessarily be complementary to Rand's own destiny but being ta'veren ensures they will definitely have parts in what is to occur.

Isilel @297
What were they waiting for in that camp and why were messages going back and forth between Moiraine and her eyes and ears? What sort of sign would she have been waiting for? Certainly not just court gossip. She knows the prophecy. She knows the next step should be to claim the Stone of Tear and Callandor with the People of the Dragon. Tarabon at the time was already starting to collapse because of what happened in Falme. That gave her a ready pool of potential recruits. In fact, by the time we get back to Taraboner dragonsworn later in the series we find that they are quite organized. With members among not just common folk but influential lords and their retainers as well. Moiraine's eyes and ears would have to have been blind not to know of them and the logical step would be to use them somehow. Except the Pattern had other plans and instead had Rand run off on his own.

By TSR, she wanted Rand to attack Sammael. And while she may have said forcing the Pattern is dangerous, attacking Illian on the force of her interpretation of the Prophecies amounts to much the same thing. The reason she did not want Rand reading the Prophecies was because she did not want him questioning her suggestions. She wanted him ignorant so he would do as she says.
Tricia Irish
309. Tektonica
Hardly have time to check in and catch up on the posting, let alone think of anything intelligent to say. Glad you guys are still compis mentis. (sp.)

R. Fife: Re: Chipmunks....How did you doooooo that?? Too funny. Thanks!

Hopefully, after tomorrow peace will descend on my home
( and the world?), and reading will be possible again.

Love to you all, and Merry/Happy Christmas/Holiday
to you all.
Party in the bunker Dec. 31st!!
Lannis .
310. Lannis
Merry Christmas all! Hope your holidays are happy and you stay healthy, regardless of what you're celebrating! Cheers! :)
Darth Touma
311. alreadymadwithchipmunks
Tektonica @309
Haven't been able to listen to it myself, as the connection out here is currently sucky, but at a guess, I'd say he played with the equalizer a bit. Jacked up the treble here, cut down the bass there.
Darth Touma
312. alreadymadwithchipmunks
Tektonica @309
Haven't been able to listen to it myself, as the connection out here is currently sucky, but at a guess, I'd say he played with the equalizer a bit. Jacked up the treble here, cut down the bass there.
Darth Touma
313. J.Dauro
R. Fife

I bow to your amazing talent. It's wonderful.

Tektonica @309

If he did it the same way as the original, he changed the speed of the tape. (OK, he probably used a computer and changed the playback speed.)

But these days, you can even change pitch without changing speed. So maybe.

Merry Christmas to all. Unless you prefer something else, and then Merry whatever.

Looking forward to much more fun with everyone in the coming year.
Roger Powell
314. forkroot
It's Christmas Eve here in Phoenix. In a few hours, the neighborhood right outside our enclave will repeat a longstanding tradition. Each house in the subdivision will line the street in front with hand-lit luminarias (OK, to be 100% technically correct, the term should be "farolitos"). This goes on for miles of interconnected streets.

Cars turn their lights off and creep through the neighborhood, enjoying the spectacle. Of course, many houses and yards are adorned with all manner of lights and decorations. A lot of people light fires and sit out -- that's the advantage of a southerly location where it's merely cool at night, not freezing.

We'll attend a Christmas Eve service at our church tonight, come home to dinner, and then venture back out into the spectacle .. cruising slowly and shouting "Merry Christmas!" to others.

Traditions and new memories. Tonight is a night for both.

To all of you, my friends on this re-read chain, I wish you a wonderful Christmas.
Richard Fife
315. R.Fife
Happy Holiday to one and all, whichever you celebrate! (went to Festivus last night myself and will be going to an xmas get-together tomorrow as well).

@AMW and Tektonica: Actually, an older version of the Windows sound recorder allows you to increase and decrease speed by 100%. Doing so can chipmunk your voice (or de-chimunk a voice). The way I got the timing at least marginally right was I slowed down the original song by 100% and got to hear the chipmunks real voices, then sang along with them. I then speed my three chipmunk-selves up and did the "music" and "dave" parts.

You are truly too kind to me. I honestly am not too happy with either of my WoT performances so far, but I am glad that you are enjoying them. Perhaps I'll keep making these "themed" songs for performance (and not butcher myself with the book-plot songs).
Thomas Keith
316. insectoid
R.Fife @315: How clever of you! Of course, you've now ruined the Chipmunks for me. ;)

(Although, I really like that phrase chipmunk your voice--LOL.)

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays to all, and to the former, a very long night...

Dale schenstrom
317. Dryheat77
Merry Christmas to all (or whatever). Just caught up. Great songs/stories. Love to read all the theories or takes on the events. I can hardly wait for the rest of the books while I dread the end coming. It's a great ride especially with the community I have found here. Will continue to read all of the comments and post occasionally as moved by the spirit.
Alice Arneson
318. Wetlandernw
On the first day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
A light-up dingle ball on the screen.

edited (tree -> screen)
Barry T
319. blindillusion
To all, Merry Christmas.

And should you not be one to celebrate Christmas, may you have a wonderful time of year and hopefully you're getting today off work.

Many Blessings all.


~ Wetlandernw RE:~ 12 Days of Christmas...

I'm looking forward to this.

edit: 3 + 1 + 9 = 13 **=)**
Alice Arneson
320. Wetlandernw
Don't get too excited - it will be nothing to match forkroot's "Twas the Night Before BelTine" since I'm not the creative genius some of these folks are. Hopefully a little fun, though. :)

By the way, thanks for getting me hooked on theoryland. (My husband and kids may not thank you, however, since it's likely to suck up time almost as much as tordotcom...)
Thomas Keith
321. insectoid
Wet @318: I can hardly wait to see the rest! :)

Blind13 @319: Very sneaky. Almost Verin-sneaky... ;)

Ho Ho Ho.

Darth Touma
322. ValMar
Merry Christmass everyone! And happy Holidays for those who do not celebrate it today or at all.

I never thought I would say this, but it sounds like Phoenix is the place to be at Christmass.
Anyway, dessert time, I'm off...

Val M
Darth Touma
323. OldWoman
Merry Christmas and happy holidays WoT-lovers. Thank you for all the enjoyable posts and food for thought. I avidly consume every word.
Lynn McDonald
324. meal6225
Merry, Happy, Joyful Holidays to you all!

The band my husband plays in has had their New years Eve gig canceled so they can play for us in the bunker! Rife can work on a WOT new year song?

May 2010 find all of you basking in the Light!

Julian Augustus
325. Alisonwonderland
From Brandon Sanderson's blog:
Next year, I will be spending a lot of the early months blogging about THE WAY OF KINGS. A lot of people have been asking about it, and Tor has nudged me to begin speaking about it more. There WILL be more info about TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT too, but I'll probably be holding off on that for a while. I know you're hungry for more information. I'll give you what I can, but I've been asked to be more secretive about these books than I normally am, and (as I have said before) I feel it is respectful to keep to Harriet's wishes.

(Progress on TofM is going well, but this is—in many ways—a much BIGGER book than TGS. There are a lot more viewpoints and plots to wrangle, including many people who were not seen in TGS. TGS was very focused by intention and design. TofM is going to feel very different, as we're going to be expanding the scope a little to include all of the things we need to see to get ready for the Last Battle. That's making the editing and revision process of what I've done go more slowly than I would have liked.)

Merry Christmas! Happy Chanukah! Happy Winter Solstice, Kwanzaa, or New Year! May you get books as presents.


A much bigger book than tGS? That is just fantastic. I can't wait!
Alice Arneson
326. Wetlandernw
On the second day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.

Thomas Keith
328. insectoid
Wet @326: LOL.

Alison @325: Nice to hear ToM will be a bigger brick than TGS! :P

I got 10 more books worth of Salvatore's Drizzt for Xmas! My winter and spring reading is secure... ;)

Alice Arneson
329. Wetlandernw
On the third day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.
Darth Touma
330. lkhklgjhfjf
Darth Touma
331. MatHornsounder
Wont it be rich if BWS the Last 3 books become the Last 6 books (if TOM is too long, they might split it!! a bloody flaming nightmare!!)

i know others have siad it, but i cant help it :
I hope Moiraine and Cads have a confrontation, and Moiraine with her increased power n knowledge (from 3 wishes) and basically her personality, wraps Cads and tells her to stop behaving like a child or she would dress her in novice white for a year and for TG and also braid her hair!!

thanks for the info about the location of chp 5-6, i did'nt know it

also, in ACOS Cads tells Rand to learn civility, but in TGS when she fails to keep the male adam safe, she does not apologize to Rand, so where are her manners??

okay, ive got to go back to writing my book,
A happy new year to all in advance!!
Darth Touma
332. MatHornsounder
Here's a WOT Quiz ive made on facebook, try it people, here's the link :
Darth Touma
333. MatHornsounder
BTW people, what is :

and some others.....??
Darth Touma
334. SuffatheDamane

Rolling On Floor Laughing


Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off

These are artifacts from the hoary days of the early mass internet, with fossils made use of chatrooms and our ancestors conversed voluminously on something called 'usenet' ;)
Darth Touma
335. MatHornsounder
Thanks Suffathedamane, but were'nt you captured by the Seanchan?????
how come you were able to reply??
or do the Suldam let good Damane use the Internet??

I'm confused..!!
:-) heheheheheh
Alice Arneson
336. Wetlandernw
On the fourth day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.
Ed Rafferty
337. BigBoy57
First - happy holidays to one and all.

Second - I've just returned from watching Avatar in 3D - what an absolute blast! This movie was incredible - I came out wanting to be blue and 10 feet tall and living on Pandora with my own personal to'raken (though the Pandoran equivalents are a lot more graceful).

About the only negative thing I found was the bum-numbing length of the show - I can't sit for very long nowadays without starting to wriggle about to ease my back and 2 and a half hours tested it right out.

James Cameron has got to be the director of any WoT movie made - just keep him away from the screenwriting (if that's possible).
Rob Munnelly
338. RobMRobM
Happy holidays to all. Been out of pocket for last few days gearing up for family and friends to come to our house on Xmas Day, then packing up and leaving Xmas night for New York City. Stayed in Rockefeller Center, got wet on Saturday (torrential, hurricane like rain all day), saw the Mary Poppins musical on Broadway (excellent), saw the Rockettes Christmas show (they're real and they are spectacular!), went to Central Park zoo with son while wife and daughter went to Nutcracker, got home last night at 10:30 p.m.

Wetlander - can't wait for the five golden ... somethings....

And when is Leigh coming back?

Tess Laird
339. thewindrose
Hi RobMRobM! Welcome back.
Are we playing guess what Wetlandernw will pick?
It could be the golden 5 from Elmonds Field:)
How many Heron marked swords are out there?
Or how many times Nyn can yank her braid in a minute.

Yes - I am back at work;)
Rob Munnelly
340. RobMRobM
It has to come from tordotcom, so...five yummy cybercookies? five Leigh-induced gender fights?
Tess Laird
341. thewindrose
Well I would imagine that spanking will come into play then:)
Rob Munnelly
342. RobMRobM
Absolutely - five squeals of outrage from Leigh when someone's bottom is paddled...
Darth Touma
343. FeatherDancer
337. BigBoy57 - Avatar

I also saw Avatar in IMAX 3d - the whole family went for the Annual Holiday Movie Outing. It was indeed septacular and I highly recomend it as well worth seeing. The visual intensity was mesmerizing. When the lights came up it was like waking from a dream. The real world was so bland in comparison to the vivid colors of Pandora.
John Massey
344. subwoofer
Addicts! I knew I'd find y'all here! My name is Subwoofer and I am a WoT lurker...

Damn kids! The first thing they did was run to the tree house. The second thing they did was find my 40 of bourbon... When a kid asks, never tell them ice tea is in the bottle. Despite any claims of restraint, they will drink it. %&***###!

Avatar eh? (See? I truly am Canadian) Like I said before, Cameron still owes me 4 hours of my life for Titanic. Durn movie was sooooo long there was an intermission. Haven't seen anything like that since Ghandi. Am thinking Sherlock Holmes is the way I'm goin'.

Am waiting patiently for the re-read to pick up, cause like I said, serious things happen at later points in this book and I am waiting to unload on it... well almost patiently. Maybe I will wonder over to the spoiler blog and do like the namesake...

Sub is also looking for a Pioneer Kuro Elite... if anyone knows of the existence of such a rare animal...

James Jones
346. jamesedjones
344 subwoofer

Iced tea!? Had to log off for a little while 'cause my boss came by to see why I was choking. Gawd, that killed me.
Darth Touma
347. alreadymadwithtv's
Sub that's a tv.
And I didn't even watch titanic. What's so dramatic about a sinking ship?
John Massey
348. subwoofer
@JEJ, yes, never heard the end of it... kids took a sip, choked, and then the drama began... forgot to build secret compartment in the bunker. Will remedy that when it gets warmer. Stash in the floor boards.

@AMWtheycanceledChristmas... yes, Mother of All TVs but they stopped making the durn things right before I started looking for them. Have an LCD and am not going down the LED road because the tech is not there yet, so Kuro it is. Can't find any up here in the er... Borderlands. Not sure I want to buy Stateside and have it shipped up. Chancy. hmmmmmm.

Consider yourself fortunate. You will live much longer not watching that movie. It was as if time was moving through quick sand. Gahhhhh. What men do for girlfriends at any given time. It was a "we see one of my movies then we see one of yours" situations.

Anyone else noting how swift TOR is loading?

Alice Arneson
349. Wetlandernw
Welcome back, everyone! It's been quiet here. Unlike some of you, my time has been fairly relaxed (except for Christmas Eve and Christmas Day), so I've been lurking here with almost nothing to read. :(

OTOH, in return for my getting him started on WoT, my husband got me started playing World of Warcraft this weekend. Ah, yes, that can burn many a quiet hour....

Sub, you're still surviving in the frozen north, eh? Iced tea indeed! *sniff* ::braid tug::

*snigger snigger*
Sam Mickel
350. Samadai
Long time lurker. First time poster here.
Sam Mickel
351. Samadai
Really had nothing to say, But I have been coming on here every day waiting for new posts.

I have been lonely here on the deserted board. :(
John Massey
352. subwoofer
@Sam- shenanigans;) We're back in the game now!

@Wet- surviving is loosely termed. Maybe should of put some Southern Comfort in the tree house. Then again, giving a 10 year old something they might like at an early age- nahhhhhhh.

Waiting for wife to get up. Dog was up wayyy before the sun. Think she ate her Christmas present. Is squeaking now.

Tess Laird
353. thewindrose
Long time poster, first time lurker...
And I will raise you a *snigger* Wetlandernw:)
Darth Touma
354. Mathornsounder
Pade 34- POD paperback :
Moridin is playing Shah'ara and thinking about the Fisher, when at the end of the chapter, he says that its difficult to lose if you play on both sides of the Board..................
This got me thinking, that Taim might be Moridin!!
but then Rand would have recognized him, unless he was using a TP woven disguise...
Personally, i doubt that Taim is Moridin, but then who know??
@334 suffathedamane,
are you still in Seanchan hands or are you free??
Darth Touma
355. Mathornsounder
What is up with you people???
Has the sightblinder got his hands on you??
where are you all??
no posts?
Have you all gone back to the Black and white Towers??
John Massey
356. subwoofer
Well, maybe playing on both sides of the Board is referring to Moridin's link with Rand. If Rand wins, maybe Moridin's link is strong enough that he takes over Rand's body and Rand becomes a background personality like LTT. Maybe that is what happened with LTT. He did not go mad, he was just possessed by somebody else through a similar link. Who is to say that this is the first time that the Dragon has such a link or that it is the first time for any kind of link among channelers.

& we are all still here. It is just tough to type with a bottle in your hands;)

Darth Touma
357. Mathornsounder
yes, but i dont think that at thatt time Moridin had any idea about the link or it's effects!!

where's my HORN??
Beware, for i've sent Vanin, some Redarms and Selucia after the culprit.....!!
Tricia Irish
358. Tektonica
Welcome back everyone! I've been lurking, but daaaaayssssss went by with no action. Not that I have anything to say. My brain has been in Christmas "park". Doing the mom thing, enjoying having my son home from college, juggling schedules again.....I'm looking forward to all the "fun" being over soon and normalcy returning.

Terez posted a great long entry on the Spoiler 2 thread @429. Check it out, if you haven't.

Hi Sub! ::waves:: Hope you rescued your stash before the kids did it in! How old are they??? As for Rand, I do hope he comes up with some "neat new stuff" now that he's all integrated with LTT. Maybe gather a group of AM that he can trust and teach them some cool new tricks?

Nice tree picture....we call them "hoodoos" when they start looking like stalactites.
What do you call them in the Blight?, er, Borderlands....;)

Nice to see all you peeps back in action!
John Massey
359. subwoofer
@Tech, no such luck. Kids move like greased lightening. And they have arms like octopus. We call the trees, um... trees. Just really frikin' cold when the ice frost gets a hold of them and turns them white. There may be a special name but it is beyond me. We call hoodoos formations of rocks down in the Drumheller area, where the Dino's hung out.

Yes, Linda visiting and Terez coming over. Thankfully I am not renowned for my knowledge, just my off the wall ability:) I am not worthy.

Tess Laird
360. thewindrose
Hiya Sub:)
So do the trees explode when the sap freezes up yonder in what was once the Borderlands;)


John Massey
361. subwoofer
Yes,it has been known to happen. But that is if there was a fast freeze and the sap did not have time to drain.

Darth Touma
362. Mathornsounder
Here's a good prologue for TOM :
all the leaders of tem light are gathered in a room, suddenly the dark one breaks free of his prison.
The leaders of team light find out about it and start arguing about who will face him, and in doing so the different factions start blowing up the known world.

The DO looks at all this mayhem and Chaos and decides to go back into his Prison, thinking :
" They can destroy the world quite nicely even wihout me.I have been rendered useless.Now i need a good long talk with the CREATOR about my purpose !! Bloody Flaming Ashes!!"

The DO grumbles and exits the pattern.
Alice Arneson
363. Wetlandernw
RobM & thewindrose... You realize, don't you, that speculation may become self-fulfilling? I do have the whole thing written up, but there are several I'm not thrilled with, so if you give me better suggestions you never know where they'll creep in. ;)

I love the 12 days of Christmas - it gives me a great excuse to keep making (and eating) candy and cookies after the chaos of the gatherings and gift exchanges are more or less finished. And the excuse for lots of parties - along with the new year stuff, there's still Twelfth Night and Epiphany to come! I love to celebrate. :)
Tricia Irish
364. Tektonica

I think the frozen tree "hoodoos" are probably named after the rock formations....I've heard it applied to them too. But when the trees start to look like the rocks, only white, oh, you know what I mean.....

I'm small-talked/kidded last Christmas party tonight with the same 80 people, and then New Years in the Bunker!....... and then abstinence, diet, sleep, and a return to peace on earth!

Anyone else reading the Dark Elves? I'm about done with Book One and am still on the fence......input? Does it get less, ummmm, dark?
Sam Mickel
365. Samadai

Yes, it does progress out of that darker area. Exile has several moments of lighter fare and Sojourn a few more. By the time you get to The Crystal Shard and on it is much lighter. They all have bits of darkness in them though.
Roger Powell
366. forkroot
This just in ...
I've had a agent doing more dumpster diving (in Utah now!) and have more definitive information about the end of WoT. Unfortunately, all of your theories about parallels with the Fisher King were a bit misplaced. It turns out that RJ has based the resolution of the series on the "Fischer King" (differences can be important!)

Apparently after all sorts of battles, etc. the climactic scene features Rand and Moridin in a tunnel at Shayol Ghul. As they face each other, with swords drawn, the dialog goes like this:

Moridin: At last, Lews Therin, we face each other for the final time! My victory will ensure the final ascendancy of the shadow!

Rand: OK, but I win if it's a draw .. and call me "Rand".

Moridin: What? What are you talking about? And I will call you what I wish, Lews Therin!

Rand: Look, I'm the champion. The light has won every one of these things. I'm the light's champion, and I get draw odds! Besides, you won't let me call you Isha-

Moridin: Stop! stop.. I am "Moridin" now... and if you wish to be called "Rand", then so be it. It doesn't matter ... now prepare to die forever! (He goes into a fencing crouch and brandishes his sword)

Rand: Nope. (He crosses his arms, with his one good hand still holding the sword, and takes on a petulant look.)

(Moridin looks annoyed and relaxes out of his fencing position)

Moridin: What do you mean "nope"? We have to fight. We always have fought - the Pattern demands it! We've fought countless times through the ages.

Rand: And who always wins?

Moridin: You do. But this time it will be different!

Rand: Ah! So you admit I'm the defending champion. Well I want my draw odds!

Moridin: This is ridiculous! Defend yourself!

(Rand ignores him and instead looks around)
Rand: Hmmm... come to think of it, the lighting isn't very good here. I want a change of venue. Besides, the crowd annoys me!

(At this point, a crowd of Myrddraal onlookers look sheepish and shuffle backward)

Moridin: Enough! You must fight me!

Rand: Why?

Moridin: Because you are the Champion of the Light and I am the Champion of the Shadow!

Rand: I'm the defending champion, bub, and I'll pick my challenger. I think I'll fight Demandred. Light knows he wants a piece of me.

(Moridin looks apoplectic. The veins in his neck bulge.)
Moridin: Demandred!? Why that two-bit, dog-faced ...(sputters incomprehensibly)


Moridin: He declines to fight Great Lord! He wants "draw odds" and better lighting and who knows what else?

Voice of the DO: DRAW ODDS??? OH LIGHT!
Rob Munnelly
367. RobMRobM
366. That's strange - I had a vision he was referring to the Fisher Price King and Moridin and Rand would race each other with little plastic cars with action figures in them and go Vroom Vroom.
Thomas Keith
368. insectoid
Wind, RobM² re: 5th day: LOL

Sub @344, Sam @350, et al: Welcome welcome! The bunker buffet is thataway. ;D

Wind @360: ::chuckles::

Tek @364 re: DET: Yes, it does get a bit less dark after Book 1. (I've finished the trilogy, myself; have yet to start on Icewind Dale.)

Fork @366 & RobM² @367: BAHAHAhahaha!! ::falls on floor laughing::

Rob Munnelly
369. RobMRobM
Wet - I'd be happy to keep the ideas flowing. No doubt Wind will as well. R
Rob Munnelly
370. RobMRobM
Fork - by the way, yours is very well done. Bravo. Rob
Darth Touma
371. ValMar
forkroot@366, ROFL

It has been quiet, indeed. Not much wisdom to be leeched recently.
Maiane Bakroeva
372. Isilel
So, let me throw some WoT-oil on the dying flame of this discussion ;):

AMW @308:

There is no evidence that Moiraine did anything at all with the reports of her eyes and ears in TDR. She certainly was quite disapproving of Masema's recruiting of Dragonsworn, which makes it highly unlikely that she was doing the same. She was just trying to figure out what to do next.

And while she may have said forcing the Pattern is dangerous, attacking Illian on the force of her interpretation of the Prophecies amounts to much the same thing.

As I said previously, Moiraine didn't think that Rand should try to fulfill prophecies, but to act as rationally seemed best.
Which, given that she has missed the significance of Aiel, was to move quickly against the one Forsaken whose location was known, binding Tairens to Rand in the process and once Sammy was gone, also winning over Illianers with the help of the Horn.
Not a bad plan, if not for the Aiel and the whole Car'acarn deal.

Concerning Mat:

I have been wondering, why I am indifferent to him, although I generally like witty trickster characters.
And I came to conclusion that it's because he is practically all Deus ex machina. Yes, he has a good heart and when something bad happens to people in front of him or to those he knows, he jumps in and saves them.
But - he is only able to save them because he is such a Deus ex machina magnet. It is not because he is clever or even a believable bad-ass. No, it is all luck/ta'veren.

He even needs a massive information download, because he is just unable and unwilling to learn enough himself to be useful.

I mean, sure, Mat, like Nynaeve, often thinks and talks BS and acts in the opposite, much nobler manner.
However, in Mat's case it is far too often the Pattern, rather than his intrinsic qualities, that forces him to stay the course and books make no bones about it.

Even the retroactively introduced supposedly pre-existing skills of Mat aren't convincing. I.e. we never heard about his mastery of staff-fighting before TDR and never seen him practicing, before or after.
Moreover, his father the staff champ, whose real ability was supposed to be superior to Mat's, didn't mow down Whitecloaks and Trollocs anything like his son.
And Mat the horse expert?! Please. There were no big horse fairs in Two Rivers. He wouldn't have as much as seen a racing horse before leaving home.

P.S.: Yes, the 3D edition of "Avatar" was pretty nice.
Darth Touma
373. alreadymadwithdragonsworn
No, she didn't have time to do anything about the Dragonsworn because the Pattern forced her hand by giving Rand a way out. But if she'd been able to find a way to fit them into her plans she'd have grabbed it.
And yes, she did not like Masema recruiting Dragonsworn because she left him and his pals to be forgotten in Ghealdan. Not recruit shady unquantified characters. Typical Aes Sedai control freak, if she didn't recruit them herself or if they were not recruited under her supervision, she doesn't want them.

And yes. Avatar 3D rocks.
Maiane Bakroeva
374. Isilel
A way out of what, AMW? And into what? It was during that solitary trek that Rand's sanity first began to crack.
There is zero evidence that Moiraine was recruiting anybody. Surely, in 2 months she'd have had something to show up for her efforts if that was what she was doing. Also, she argued against Rand joining any Dragonsworn groups.

Generally, most of Rand's paranoia about "strings" was him lapping up the parts of Ishy's rhetoric that supported his own prejudices and his anger at his, admittedly frightening, fate. IMHO, of course.

Sure, Moiraine's secrecy did her no favors, but early on it was justified and later she just didn't manage to change as quickly as Rand did. It was a big mistake, but then nobody is perfect.
Darth Touma
375. thepupxpert
Hi - I've only gotten through the first 200 or so posts after coming back from holiday but I wanted to ask @122 subwoofer where did that fabulous quote on the characters as young children come from? Sounds like a book or short story I haven't read yet? Thanks.
Sam Mickel
376. Samadai

That was from the young adult version of the Eye of the World called From the Two Rivers. It was an additional prologue made up for that edition
John Massey
377. subwoofer
Yes, what Samadai said. It had the extra bit at the beginning which was the only reason I bought the book.

Saw Sherlock Holmes. A very worthy movie.

Avatar? Well, we'll see...

I think Moiraine was upset because she had no way of knowing that Masema would be such a PITA and create a following that would eventually spark civil war and warrant the DR's attention. Had she of known, I am sure that as Suian would say, Masema would meet with an unfortunate accident.

@Fork, be careful of dumpster diving, may pick up the Swine Flu there. Symptoms include crazy rantings IIRC;)

John Massey
378. subwoofer
Suspiciously quiet. I may have to break into song. It could be bad. But then again, there are no witnesses. Maybe I'll pull a Tyler Durden. I dunno.

Darth Touma
379. ValMar
@Isilel and amw

About Rand, Moiraine, and the Dragonsworn.

Unless I am mistaken, it was Rand who wanted to join the dragonsworn while Moiraine was adamant that he shouldn't. In fact, this was their major disagreement at the time. Rand was being emo how they were dying for him and he was hiding in the mts.

Since we are not 100% clear about Moiraine's intentions (in detail) our assumptions will be subjective, in many cases.

PS @ Isilel, I think you are a bit harsh on Mat, even though he's not the type of character I normally like.
Bobby Stubbs
380. Valan
Sub - re: song/Tyler Durden

Please do!

Also the first time I saw Avatar I was completely blown away, loved it. The second time was a bit easier to see past the special effects and my love of fantasy, and see that 1) the acting needs help and 2) the script needs ALOT of help and 3) why exactly are they blue? Still worthy of your money though for the big screen, preferably IMAX.

Was a bit disappointed in Sherlock Holmes, but its quite a bit different than Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, Snatch and RocknRolla, which I love. I'll blame it on it being PG-13. Because I can. Don't talk to me about rationality, Lews Therin talks enough.

MatHornSounder @ 362

I do believe thats the prologue that everyone that thought A Memory of Light could be done in 1 volume wanted ;-)

to All: I've been lurking through the Christmas parodies, they're pretty... pretty... pretty... pretty good ;)

Wet : Looking forward to the shocking conclusion of the 12 days of

Isilel 372, 374:

Very nice rebuttal re: Moraine, I've come to like her much more since the 12 years I've been re-reading WoT. Age relation and all that (she's still got 18 years on me though)

(Prepare for hardcore Mat fan reaction)
Please don't take away Mat's badass quarterstaff and horse skills! Everyone in the bloody Two Rivers is good at something, its not hard to believe he got some skills from his father. Damn. *duck*
... Good point about his Dad though, but I think thats mainly from a general lack of screen time. We don't get to see Tam mow down trollocs hardly either.
Bonnie Andrews
381. misfortuona
Hello everyone. Waves. Just got the chance to check in. I love Christmas but I'm looking forward to getting back to work. Oh wait it's the end of the year. INVENTORY AHHHH. Sorry bad moment there.

Anyway WOT stuff.
Wet ... love the 12 days. Looking forward to tomorrow. Though all the speculation is fun as well.
Sub sorry to hear about the loss of your bourbon. Total waste of good booze if you ask me. They just can't appreciate it properly. Love the pictures, made me glad that all the white stuff is falling up your way this year. We’ve only had about 10cm to deal with.
Fork @ 366 Loved it. Passive resistance as a plan for TG? LOL
RobM² @367 Damn now even my kids old toys remind me of WOT. Every time I pick one up I’m going to end up online. Still ROFL
Isilel @ 372
Again I find myself defending my man Mat. He is indeed Des ex machina, that’s what being tavern is all about. It is exactly his own response to finding himself constantly in the middle of things when he’d much rather just be sitting somewhere in a pub that makes him so lovable to me. He tries, for some time to come, to avoid the inevitable and yet when the fit hits the shan he always comes through in splendid style.
As to his ability with the quarter staff, well we do not see him applying himself to practicing as does Rand, but then again we never see Perrin spend much time with his axe either. There is reference to time spent in their youth however and I’m willing to buy RJ’s claim that both boys had the ability.
As to horses. These people used horses every day of their lives, and knowing about them was more important for these farm boys than knowing mechanics is for a modern truck driver. They didn’t have a service station in the next town. And for any man in a farming community, even now, to have developed a reputation as being an astute horse trader, he knew his stuff. I’m sorry but IMHO (farm born and raised in the Canadian prairies, and a horsewoman since I was three) there is no reason to doubt either Mat’s or his father’s knowledge of the animals.
Tricia Irish
382. Tektonica
Samadai@365 & Insectoid@368

Thanks for the DET update. I don't mind some dark...I love GRRM for instance, but the paranoid, hateful, culture of violence is so unrelenting. That's the dark I could use less of. Thanks for letting me know it eases up. I do have hope for Drizzt.

Forkroot@366: LOL...well done!


Thanks for the Mat defense. I'm with you. I don't think RJ writes a lot of deus ex machina characters. (Although there were times I was wishing for one....failemaldencoughperrinshaido....story line.)

Mat is a reality check. No superpowers. He's was dragged along on this adventure initially, acted upon without explanation, and is trying to grow up and come to grips with his situation, his best friend being the DR, magical stuff being done to his head, and still bring comic relief to the story. I vote for Awesome. (Not MY favorite character, oh no!)

And, sorry Isilel.....I don't think it's the pattern that keeps him on course, inspite of his grousing. I think he has a good, big ol' heart. He steps in and saves the girls in Tear, he puts up with a lot from Elayne and Nynaeve in Ebou Dar, is run rough shod by the AS in general, all in pretty good humor. Some people just like to whine and bitch, and because he always comes through in the end, that dichotomy is a defining characteristic of his persona on screen. It's his modis operandi. All IMHO, of course.; )

Misfortuona@381: Well said and ditto.....
Alice Arneson
383. Wetlandernw
Mat... just have to throw in here that when Mat overheard Gaebril/Rahvin talking with Comar, telling him to find Elayne & kill her, we didn't hear anything about feeling forced to protect her & the other two. I agree that Mat was ta'veren-Pattern-shoehorned into becoming a leader and a captain, and he grumbles about it all the way. But in this instance, and arguably in several others, it's his own personal code that drives him into danger for another's sake. In one sense, the Pattern laid it all out so that he had to sneak in over the wall, past the open window to hear the conversation, and into the presence of "Lord Gaebril" so that he puts it all together. But at this point he hadn't even heard of the 'Finn; he just heard that some "defenseless" (maybe not, but he thought they were) girls were being targeted by some ruthless politician (okay, a Forsaken, but he didn't know that at the time) and he hot-footed it after them. He knew it could be dangerous, but it never seriously crossed his mind to do anything else. He might say it, and try to convince someone else that he actually considered leaving them to their own devices, but he would never do it.

However, as misfortuona so ably puts it, "Deus ex machina what being ta'veren is all about." I think you could easily put Rand and Perrin's "special gifts" into the same category; the difference is that with Mat we get to see the mechanism by which his super-power (memories and accompanying comprehension of tactics and strategy) is acquired. Maybe that's why it bugs people sometimes.
John Massey
384. subwoofer
Yup, I'm going with Misfortuona on this one, gotta know your horse flesh growing up on the prairies. That's how I picked my wife. I looked at her teeth and figured, "yup, she's a keeper!" :D

Alice Arneson
386. Wetlandernw
On the fifth day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.

(Make sure you get the timing right on the winks. It should have a muted triangle effect.)
Darth Touma
387. MatHornsounder
@366 forkroot

and then Moridin gets pissed of and kills demandred and the other forsaken,
this pisses the DO of and he kills Moridin..

thus Team Dark loses on account of its members beinf unfit (err.. i mean dead) for fights and politics!!

This angers Cadsuane and she exits the pattern to teach the DO manners!!

seeing Cads, the DO decides to flee and leave the WOT alone

And so the wheel continues spinning, turning and weaving until Nynaeve yanks on it, unravelling the pattern!!
Darth Touma
388. MatHornsounder
i see you forkroot
You are talking of TG quite frequently........
Have you, by any chance laid your hands on a certain Crystal Sword recently??

Rand has lost his and the bloody Dragon Flaming Reborn is pissed off!
Darth Touma
389. alreadymadwithrandsburden
Isilel @374
Err... it was Rand deciding to go haring off on a wild goose chase across the length and breadth of the Westlands that was the first sign of his losing it. That was in no small part due to the sense of losing control of his own destiny that being in Moiraine's clutches imparted. As events played out, it did turn out to be the will of the Pattern. And while the idea of being tied to anybody's control was first elaborated by Ishamael, we can't fault Rand for avoiding it like the plague. It's his destiny that is in question. I see no reason let it to play out as anybody but Rand would want it to. After all, nobody else was born fated to die, to go mad, to save the world or break it, or both. The burden is unique and anybody who thinks he or she knows how to carry it better than Rand does is flat out deluded.
390. MasterAlThor
People, people....

If you are going to be this funny please put disclaimers up. I nearly peed my pants.

The carols and poems.....too funny.

The stories were great too.

Sub....Iced tea???? There are neighbors in Kentucky that are looking around wondering who the hell is laughing so hard.

Man oh man. I think my wife is on the phone with the people with the white coats and big needles.

Hope you guys all had a great holiday.

Peace love and happiness.

391. MasterAlThor
Oh yes

First time poster, long time lurker...


First time lurker, long time poster...

Waitaminute, that's not right.

Long time poster, long time lurker.

There we go.

I just need help
Tess Laird
392. thewindrose
Good one wetlandnw:)
With the winks you can sing it to the music(hint for subwoofer).

RobmRobM, we must keep up the guessing game:)
Rob Munnelly
393. RobMRobM
Six geese are laying...hmmmm.

Well we KNOW it will be "Seven ajahs plotting" (or eight if you include black) but what to do about six....
Tess Laird
394. thewindrose
First six books reviewed...

I was thinking about headdesking, but that would be a higher number?

How about words we have made up on the re-read?
Bonnie Andrews
395. misfortuona
Tektonica @382, Wet@383, Sub@384
YEAH TEAM MAT.b (I know wrong story, but I couldn't help it. Sorry)
Sub ROFL, does your wife ever read these posts?
Wet - Yes spanking wars! Fun times at the bunker parties.

What about Elaida's six striped stole?

Cheers all.
Rob Munnelly
396. RobMRobM
Six foreign tongue intros

Six Supergirl acronyms

Six silly surveys
Rob Munnelly
397. RobMRobM
Six spoiler warnings (note that all of these could work with seven as well)

Six Torie slamdowns

six twitchers twitching....
John Massey
398. subwoofer
Wife gives 'er on facebook, has no time or patience for my rants. She doesn't get the books either. Her style is tech mags and text books on vet medicine. Each to their own, and more for me. Anyways, I can run faster scared than she can angry;)

Don't worry all, when we get a chance, me and Free will slaughter any given song chosen. Just no GnR, nobody could hit that pitch.

Just a thought, another triggered by AMWtheyseparatedchocolatefrompeanutbutter, but isn't everything Rand does guided and willed by the Pattern. As evidenced by Mat and Perrin and Rand, if any one of them step outside the bounds of what any Prophecy or the Pattern wills, they get snapped back into place roughly.

Rand losing a hand was on purpose. Rand doing laps all over the Westland was on purpose. His many wounds. Mat marrying the Empress of the Seanchan empire. Perrin marrying the heir to the genralship of Saldea. Rand marrying the Throne of Andor, an Aeil WO, and an Oracle. All deliberate. Moiraine taking out Lanfear. Lan marrying Ny and now prancing off to the Gap. All of this is pattern willed, not done of free will. Even the link with Moridin. The Pattern will pull him along too. No link to the DO can change that in the end. And that is what the DO has to fight. Rand is just there for good looks.

Bonnie Andrews
399. misfortuona
WOW. Well you certainly took the wind out of the DR's sails. So tell me then, are all of us just part of the pattern too? Are we here to make sure that the story gets written?
Still chuckling over your last spoiler post.

Oh yeah RobM - I like twitchers twitching, but in truth I think it needs to come way higher than 6th.
John Massey
400. subwoofer
Well, IIRC, wasn't it Moiraine or Fel who said that even the Dragon is woven into the Pattern and his thread can be snipped off too? Or something like that. Basically what that said to me was that the Dragon is even more accountable for his actions than the average Andoran wondering down the street. The Pattern is pulling Rand tighter to it. I'm going to have to look this one up but I do remember something like this coming up when Rand starts acting like he is all that and a bag of chips.

As for the rest of us, we just read what BwS types. He's the chief, we do the singing.

Edit- Thanks MatHS!!! A milestone almost slipped by me! Woooooo! Didn't even see it coming but great to be here! 4 Hunny! AHHHH!

John Massey
401. subwoofer
The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

Darth Touma
402. MatHornsounder
@400 sub
it was Moiraine who said it to Rand
Tess Laird
403. thewindrose
subwoofer - ::looks up:: You may need to edit 400 hunny???
Bonnie Andrews
404. misfortuona
Hey sub
I agree that this is the way that it's supposed to work for Rand. It was just that it seemed like such a bummer the way you laid that out. Poor guy doesn't matter what he does, he's just a pawn in the bigger game.
I always get this way when I starting thinking fatalistic. I certainly didn't mean that to sound serious in any way. :)
Darth Touma
405. NearToothlessWilder
I had a version of the Twelve days of Christmas eaten by tor the other day but had not stored it. Not as good as Wetlander's certainly but not totally useless either. For the sixth day - based on Six swans a-swimming - I had Six Siuans a-scheming. The seven ajahs were sniffing, by the way.
John Massey
406. subwoofer
Yup, sometimes it is tough being cannon fodder. In the end, Rand is the result of the Pattern and is governed by it. It is like the classic argument of people being the master of their own destiny or being subject to fate or a divine will. IMHO the more Rand tries to buck the trend, the tighter the Pattern pulls him. Just go with the flow.

In essence, that is what Mat does. He is governed by the dice rattling in his head, at the outcome, good or bad, is what he lives with. Mat may not like it, he grumbles and curses, but he does live with it.

Darth Touma
407. MatHornsounder
ai'nt it possible that Rand will use up th OP while killing the DO for good, thus also destroying the TP,
ridding the world of the Powers and making the wheel format of time linear, like ours??

i hope this does'nt happen, but still, its a possibility
James Jones
408. jamesedjones
406 subwoofer

I think Isilel just doesn't like the Calvinistic theme to Mat. :D
John Massey
409. subwoofer
Yup, well like Mat or not, he is one of the players. And he feels the pattern too, makes him do the right thing no matter what his drunken, addled senses tell him otherwise. End result- Mat is a general of an army, married to an Empress, and going to go to a place where no one has gone into and come out alive. In the process getting stabbed through with more holes than Swiss cheese and he even gives Elayne pause as to his motivation.

Incidentally, I love the name "Neartoothlesswilder" :)

Alice Arneson
410. Wetlandernw
Wow! Clearly I should have done a survey before starting on the 12 days... Then again, I might end up with the thousand and thirty-two days of Christmas if I did that. Or 86 versions of the 12 days.

(Hey, come on, twitches MUST be at 10. You figure out why...;) ) (Although there's an arguable case for putting them at 11 as well.)

On a (slightly) more serious note, subwoofer recalls correctly that Moiraine mentions the Pattern weaving ta'veren more tightly. Something about how "the Wheel weaves ta'veren on a tighter line than other men" (chapter 3, tGH). It's also been said that you can "see history actually weave itself around ta'veren" (chapter 9, tGH). I believe the first was Moiraine and the second Loial, but I could be wrong.

In any case, I believe you are correct (@multiple) in saying that everything that happens to the triad is Wheel-induced and necessary to weave the Pattern rightly. That doesn't preclude their responsibility or the validity of their choices, either. It's true of everyone, but more noticable with ta'veren. (But don't try to wrap your head around it; it's a paradox that only appears to be a dichotomy, and it will wrap you around the axle until you can't move. Who knew RJ was a theologian too!)

jamesedjones @408 - LOL!! You put a whole new twist on "Calvinistic"....

Ah, it's nice to see the discussion going again.

Neartoothlesswilder - if I'm going to post anything much more than a one-liner, or anything I really want to put thought into, I write it up in Notepad (or whatever similar tool you have) and copy it in. Then if tor eats it, I've still got the original and can try again. The result of grievous losses... ;)
411. Freelancer
Ok, clearly the egg-[i][u][b]nog[/b] spoiled, and you all are suffering this weird form of dementia from a mild food poisoning with an oosquai kicker. Don't worry, it will pass. Just eat lots of protein for a few days, lay off the breads, and real iced tea, uncle Sub!

By the way, I'm good for an a-flat, so yes I can, but who'd want to sing GnR anyway? How about some Decorations? (Truly not to be missed)


Trust your own instincts, don't be swayed, I'm sure your first inspirations about the Twelve Days will turn out best. Oh, and beware the redundancy of saying jamesedhones and twist in the same sentence. Just sayin'.

I see the quote up there about Brandon saying that ToM will be, in many ways, a "bigger" book. I'm not a betting man, but I'm pretty sure he's talking plot largeness here, not wordcount. Imagine years from now, you grandkids get to an age where you'd like to recommend WoT to them as good reading. They look over on the bookshelf, and see those fourteen volumes lined up, getting larger and larger and larger from TEotW, and run screaming from the room.
Darth Touma
412. MatHornsounder
Actually, tave'ren do have choices, but take the wrong choice, and thir thread is snipped off

Remember Mat asking the Aelfinn about what would happen to him if he did'nt go to Rhuidean
and they answered that he would die as he would have stepped out of his path or some such...

Also, do you guys recollect that Mat actually got six answers from the Aelfinn!!

::yawn's...goodnight ::
Darth Touma
413. MatHornsounder
ok,im back, could'nt sleep

here's some news (i dont know if you've heard, so i'll post it anyway) from red eagle entertainment :

EA Partners Signs on as Distribution Partner for
Games Based on Robert Jordan’s Fantasy Series The Wheel of Time

Malibu, Calif. – January 15, 2009 – Red Eagle Games today announced they have signed a strategic distribution agreement with Electronic Arts Inc. (NASDAQ: ERTS) for games based on Robert Jordan’s beloved fantasy series, The Wheel of Time.

Red Eagle Games will develop and publish a line of stand-alone games on all major videogame platforms, including consoles, personal computers, handheld systems and wireless devices. The games will be distributed by EA. In addition, Red Eagle will launch and operate a massively multiplayer online role-playing game that encompasses the themes, characters and world of The Wheel of Time, which will be distributed at retail by EA.

“The Wheel of Time is a blockbuster global brand and our relationship with EA Partners will ensure that Red Eagle Games’ products are made available to consumers around the world through familiar retail channels,” said Rick Selvage, Chairman and President of Red Eagle Games.

“EA Partners is excited to team up with Red Eagle as their global distribution partner for games based on The Wheel of Time series,” said David DeMartini, senior vice president and general manager of EA Partners. “The Wheel of Time series has a massive worldwide following and we’re excited to help give Red Eagle Games’ interactive products a blockbuster launch on the global stage.”
John Massey
414. subwoofer
'K- busted- I am a dumb ass... but honestly, why do kids always have to bugger around with stuff and not leave well enough alone? grumble.

This ice tea you speak of, is there alcohol content or water? I am thirsty, not dirty. Okay, maybe I need a shower, but still...

Bonnie Andrews
415. misfortuona
Good to hear from you again. In regards to introducing the kids to WOT. My son is about to turn 14 (new year's eve) and though he is an avid reader, I couldn't convince him to start on WOT until about two months ago. He loves it (of course) but yeah it was tough to get him to pick up that first volume with the another ten to go.
Darth Touma
416. NearToothlessWilder
Wetlander@410 Thanks for the tip although it is just as well that Tor ate my offering. The result of too much wine....

SubWoofer - you probably recognised the source of my name. If not, it is the description Cadsuane gave of Norla,from whom she received her paralis-net of ter'angreal.
Sam Mickel
417. Samadai
Wetlandernw @410,
Ten The Shadow Rising twitches. ;)
Bonnie Andrews
418. misfortuona
I'm hoping that the reason for twitches at 10 is because that's about the time we should be looking for the next post.
Is Leigh back on the 4th, or is it somewhat up in the air?
Answer anyone? Leigh? We miss you. Hope you're having a fantastic break.
Thomas Keith
419. insectoid
Sub had to edit 4 hunny?? What's this world coming to?

I received a belated notice that mentioning the buffet back at @368 was a bad idea. ::sigh::

@All re: sixth day: I like "six silly surveys", but all the suggestions are pretty good. Ultimately up to Wet of course.

Tess Laird
420. thewindrose
Freelancer - Well at this point in *time* we know there will be 14 books of the main story line, Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time(or BBoBA?), New Spring and the Encyclopedia some time after the release of aMoL. So, what people may want to do is hide all but the first book, and once you get them with tEotW you most likely will have them hooked. I wonder if anyone will document all the web activity for this series? **From Usenet on:)**

*You never know...

**A documentary would be funny...
Tricia Irish
421. Tektonica
Oh, things are hopping again!

Welcome back Free@411: "Decorations" was very funny. Thanks! As for all the books.....personally, if an Epic is really good, I don't ever want it to end, but my son, bless his lazy teenage heart, sees the shelf of volumes and groans. So, yeah, he runs screaming from the room......

JEJ@408: Calvinistic indeed! Pure Mat. John Calvin is rolling over.....

MatHS@413: That was a year ago....I haven't heard a thing...anyone?

Various: As for free will and the pattern.....the pattern weaves people (especially Ta'Veren), where they should be and binds them tighter, but what they do in a situation is pure chance, yes? Or am I getting this wrong? I mean, they could really screw things up by their choices, couldn't they? Die when they're not supposed to? Go to the Dark Side? Not act in some way? Am I misinterpreting things?
Tricia Irish
422. Tektonica

Nice name.....Are you familiar with "Nearly Headless Nick" in Harry Potter?

We have a local (harmless) derelict that hangs around a nearby 7-11 with one tooth, whom I have dubbed, "Nearly Toothless Nick", so your name really made me ROTF.
Alice Arneson
423. Wetlandernw
A 7-11 with only one tooth? What are things coming to these days?

Sorry... I couldn't help it. Just the way it parsed when I first read it, I had to go back twice to make it read like you meant. LOL! :)
Tricia Irish
424. Tektonica
Sorry Wet....miss placed modifier.....should read:

We have a local derelict with one tooth, that hangs around the nearby 7-11, whom I have named...etc.....

I know you are a stickler for proper grammar....oops.....
Roger Powell
425. forkroot
Thanks for the plaudits regarding @366.

Those of you who:

1) Play chess
2) Were around for Fischer-mania in 1972

should appreciate the humor the most.

(Freelancer, I believe you qualify on both counts!)
Rob Munnelly
426. RobMRobM
Fork @425. Me too. (I'm a year younger than Free and Wet - hah).
Rob Munnelly
427. RobMRobM
@424 Should be "who hangs around...." Grammar police and all that.
428. Freelancer
Oh yes, I am quite familiar with the Spassky war in Reykjavic, the Russian's hystrionics, and Fischer's brilliant methods of abusing them. Not to mention being fair at the game itself. It's sad that a mind like his came to such an ignominious end.

Ok, thewindrose is our winner. I knew that as soon as I specified 14 volumes, someone would bring up the BBoBA & New Spring. You keep those on a separate shelf, and don't mention them until the person is well engaged. Say just after finishing TGH. Who can put this stuff down right after Falme?


I was just about to make the same comment, and then saw yours (like what's new?). It's like, "Throw the horse over the fence some hay".

And thanks to everyone saying welcome back. I've not gone anywhere, and have been reading, just too busy or otherwise involved to compose a comment. Also, it's nice to see the backside of that business about refuted quotes. It hurts me to be disbelieved, I take integrity and credibility very seriously, so I was a bit put off during that.
Alice Arneson
429. Wetlandernw
Tektonica @424 - I'm trying not to be a stickler for other people, but when I first read it, that's what I got. Made me do a double-take, and then I cracked up - at myself as much as the tooth. I thought you might enjoy the humor. :)

Freelancer @ 428 - You belong in WoT. :) I was just reading something about how RJ designed this world where people giving their word really meant something, that a promise was something you kept, that honor was serious business, and reputation was worth having. All these things seem to be taken far too lightly in our current culture, but I know you too well. You belong in WoT. That's why it bugged me so much to see someone come out of left field and basically call you a liar - or at best, deluded by your own wishes. I really wanted to slap him. Hard. Several times. Instead, I sent Terez an email and had a nice little discussion with her that way. I hope I didn't drag it out longer and make it worse for you, but I couldn't just leave it as it stood. It was wrong. I haven't taken it up with dragonmount, because there (as far as I know) it's just in that twerp's comment on something else that was posted, but it was inexcusably rude.
Darth Touma
430. MatHornsounder
Hey, what is all this stuff about teenagers not reading long series???

i'm 17 and i began TEOTW in the beginning of october and just managed to get KOD a day begore the release of TGS and finish it!!

while reading TEOTW, i was hooked to the series, and could,nt wait for the morning , to buy TGH!!

cmon people, spare the kids!

the longer the series, the better for us..!!
Thomas Keith
431. insectoid
Wet @423: LOL

Free @428, Wet @429: Especially when Free had someone here to back up his quote...

Mat @430: Heh. I was 19 when I started the series in October 2005 and it took me 4 months. Ya beat me! ;) there a Guinness World Record for reading WoT the fastest? Just sayin'.

EDIT: Which reminds me...way back when (TSR #10?) we had a poll of "WoT ages" going; your WoT age is how long since you started reading WoT.

Darth Touma
432. MatHornsounder
@insectoid 431
Actually, my speed is a book per day, the amount of pages dont matter to me.....(unless they are less than 500)
Yeaahh...i beat you!!

So, my wot age is 3 months!!

wow, seems im the youngest of the lot!!

:-) :-) :-)

BTW, how did Rand and Ishmael appear in d sky above Falme??
was it something to do with the wheel directly??
Darth Touma
433. MatHornsounder
One fan asked him...if he will miss writing in Lews Therin's voice. Brandon said probably, but he was not 100% sure that we will not see Lews Therin's voice again.

thanks for the link

Also, people, remember that on Dragonmount while accessing the OP through the CK Rand thinks that he had accessed such power only once before, while creating dragonmount!

so, does that mean that now Rand is stronger than before and that he can access all that amount of OP without using any angreal or sa'angreal??

would be great!!
add this to Callandor, and we get an almost invincible channeller!!

Forsaken beware!!
Darth Touma
434. MatHornsounder
James Oliver Rigney III (RJ's nephew)

RJ: Rand is second only to Lan with the sword

I hope that means he's better than Gawyn....
i hope one handed Rand or Lan teaches Gawyn a lesson in humility by defeating him im combat!!
Darth Touma
435. MatHornsounder
4 posts only!!
progress is slow today!!
hmm...ive got some confusing thoughts here:

Q: If Rand is the reincarnation of Lews Therin, why does he have no contact with personalities before Lews Therin?

Mashadar killed Sammael, so will he be reincarnated by the DO as Johnny?

If Rand is the reincarnation of Lews Therin, why does he have no contact with personalities before Lews Therin?

Put your thinking Hats on!!
(and they are bloody good hats!!)

When Birgitte says she remembers a tale of a female Warder after being bonded to Elayne, does she remember herself?
John Massey
436. subwoofer
Dude- look at the time of your posts! It is not a slow day, everyone is asleep. This revolves around the New York Time Zone. Being in India, other side of the globe means you are on the opposite side of the clock from us.

So anyways, here abouts it is hard to get a kid to sit through a meal without plugging into their PSP, texting or vid/TV watching. Getting some of them to actually sit down and read- a book even- is like one of the twelve tasks of Hercules. That you have done so speaks volumes for your patience and qualities. Good on you.

Then again, you being 17 kinda puts a strain on my pub crawl idea. er... you do have a DL right?

WoT related, when LTT pulled all that power into himself, he self destructed, burned himself out, pulled the pin, went kablowie. It may be a case where as Rand matures he can pull in more power. Stands to reason as Elayne and Eggy have not reached their full potential, what is to say that Rand has reached his. Then again Rand does not have the luxury of time or another male teacher to guide him through the ropes of Saidin.

Darth Touma
437. alreadymadwithmalegrowth
Males seem to grow in strength in fits and starts independent of a teacher once they can seize saidin. The only benefit of a teacher by then is knowledge of additional weaves. You're right about having no time to wait, though.
John Massey
438. subwoofer
@AMW, that is what I was getting at.
Then again Rand does not have the luxury of time or another male teacher to guide him through the ropes of Saidin.

At least with Asmo Rand gained the knowledge of some weaves by actually learning them, instead of the weird Jedi way through LTT. Take for instance Rand wanting to ward his dreams. That was one of the first things he wanted, he asked, he learned. Say Rand wanted to make- I dunno- a vanilla bean latte, low foam, there is nobody around to show him how that was done in the past. Or if Rand wanted to learn how to cure some sickness or do the Compulsion thing that Semi did...

Darth Touma
439. alreadymadwithmemories
I don't know. Between Asmo's teaching and LTT's memories, I'd definitely pick the latter as more reliable and generally more badass. Now if only Rand can be convinced that LTT did not die mad and can therefore be relied upon for sane advice.
Darth Touma
440. NearToothlessWilder

Yes, I have read Harry Potter but never noticed the connection between Nearly Headless Nick and my WOT persona. Well spotted!

One of the things that I enjoy about RJ is the way he could cause the reader to speculate on the back stories of even minor characters such as Norla, the near toothless wilder, who only gets a brief mention and will probably not be referenced again. I loved the description when I first read it and on the re-reads always wonder how she got Cadsuane to earn the ter'angreals.
Darth Touma
441. MatHornsounder
Indeed, a wilder teaching Cadsy a lesson, wont that have been a sight!!

i hate the way the AS use the word wilder (with contempt)

the As sometimes feel like a bunch of noobs, fighting and politicking among themselves!

and trust is a major factor here, i mean the guys in the DO's camp not trustin each other is fine,
But surely there should be a modicum of trust in each other in team light!!

Also, i think Elyas deserves to be the Leader of Wolves in the Last hunt, as he's been a wolfbrother for more time than Perrin.....
Alice Arneson
442. Wetlandernw
On the sixth day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Six carol parodies
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.

(Make sure you get the timing right on the winks.)

My apologies - I completely forgot to post this last night.
Alice Arneson
443. Wetlandernw
Don't forget that when Rand was drawing "that much" Power on Dragonmount, he was using the most powerful sa'angreal in the world. LTT did it with no assist, pulling in all he could hold and more in a spectacular suicide. So this scene in itself doesn't really say anything about Rand's OP level.

Yes, it's very high, probably the highest there is. But you can't use this scene to prove it.
Thomas Keith
444. insectoid
MatHorn @432: Well, I was taking college classes at the time, so.

Wet @442: Actually on this thread there've been ten carol parodies, but I'm not gonna bump ten twitchers twitching out of the song. ;)

Pritesh Patil
445. MatHornsounder
insect @444
i'm taking college classes now, 6-8hrs a day!!
im invincible!!

(did u hear of some girl finishing Harry potter and the deathly hallows in an hour or something, back when it released!!)

Now that is scary!!
Roger Powell
446. forkroot
i'm taking college classes now, 6-8hrs a day!!
im invincible!!
You sure your name's not "MatHornblower" ? ;-)

Just a gentle tease my friend - we're glad you've joined us.

Ah to be young again...
Jack Diamond
447. violetdancer

I'll take my aches and pains and gray strands over being 17. I know too much now to play those games again.


I'm 60 and still take college classes with all you younguns. Spring semester I'm taking forensic entomology. Blowflies and scarab beetles, oh my!
Bonnie Andrews
448. misfortuona
Hear! Hear! Dear lady, I'm with you, 17 is an age I do not miss, and our gray strands are medals of honour. (Kept happily hidden for my enjoyment only.) :)
That said, our new young friend certainly does have the requisite passion for the story, and loquacious fingers.
Welcome to the post MatHS.
Thomas Keith
449. insectoid
Violet @447: Entomology?! Oh boy, I'm in trouble. ;D

John Massey
450. subwoofer
Dang! At the pace my life goes, I have only one option, sleep or read. One usually happens at the sacrifice of the other. I have had my share of school. Maybe when I retire and want to explore some other options and take some courses... in Italy. 17 eh? I am happy right where I am. Besides, I am much closer to taking over the world now as opposed to when I was younger. Life is for living, not living with regrets. Don't look back buddy:)

Elyas- I think the reality of that situation is that Elyas is a loner. If given the choice of being the leader, IMHO, Elyas would pass. He'd much rather be doing his own thing than being involved with AS or the wars of men. He has the skills, just not the heart for it. Perrin would step up out of a sense of duty and loyalty. He is one of the three for a reason.

John Massey
451. subwoofer
Meant to type more but the arthritis got to me. Had to break for Geritol and Cataflam. Took so long because my walker was moving faster than I was. Then I had to look for my teeth... first had to find my glasses.

Bobby Stubbs
453. Valan
Sub: I will happily take MHS's place in the bar-hopping extravaganza (I'm 24 yo). In fact, going to 6th street in Austin for New Year's Eve, and thoroughly expect to wake up in a place similar to the bunker's latest description. In fact, I'll need to find some Oosquai for tomorrow...
454. Freelancer
Hmm, actually, 17 is an age I do miss. Out of high school a year, no university will touch me for my scholarship strength (track at the time) because I'm not 18 yet, so I just work, surf, ski, and drive my car. All over SoCal.

But other than that, yes, youth is wasted on the young.
Pritesh Patil
455. MatHornsounder
Violetdancer @447

Your studying at 60!!

::Salutes and bows to you::

Forkroot @446
Hmm..there's not much of a difference between Hornsounder and Hornblower

Sub @451

@ i just read, write, practice football, play the guitar, play some more football, write some more
and of course work...........
Forgot to mention studying
Alice Arneson
456. Wetlandernw
On the seventh day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Seven silly surveys
Six carol parodies
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.

(Make sure you get the timing right on the winks.)
Roger Powell
457. forkroot
Meant to type more but the arthritis got to me. Had to break for Geritol and Cataflam. Took so long because my walker was moving faster than I was. Then I had to look for my teeth... first had to find my glasses.
Reminds me of when I was on a plane a few years ago. The flight attendant had been mock-flirting with the man across the aisle who was likely an octogenarian. There had been a lot of cheerful banter about older men having more, ahem, "experience" in certain matters.

At one point, the gal said coyly: "So... do older men wear boxers or briefs?"

Without missing a beat, the gentleman replied:

Maiane Bakroeva
459. Isilel
So, I have been thinking a bit more on why I love trickster characters like Miles Vorkosigan, Vlad Taltos, Tyrion Lannister and Locke Lamora, but am indifferent to Mat.

And my conclusion is that it is because Mat, for the most part, is not self-moving, but directed by the Pattern and neither curious (apart from Shadar Logoth incident) nor clever.
In fact, when Mat tries to be clever, he fails more often than not, because his luck is supposed to be random. Even most of his wittiness is unintentional.
I.e. he is the ultimate wish-fulfillment character who gets everything he needs dropped into his lap. Which is a greater superpower than anything Rand et al. can bring to the table ;).

It is not that those other characters by other authors aren't massively lucky too, but they do appear to act under their own power, to never be without plans and schemes and certainly would have died of boredom if they spent all their time in such an undemanding activity as games of dice, with chance massively skewed their way.

And relatively small changes would have made me like Mat, such as:

- Have him brag that he'd win the Bel Tine competition when we first met him and use the prize to do something audacious - like go to Baerlon. And have the other guys think that he had a real chance. That would have already established Mat as a potential bad-ass.

- Have him leave TR with a staff as well as a bow and show Lan his aptitude. He could have lost it shortly after picking up the dagger.
Then have him pick up a spear when the dagger was stolen in TGH and actually train with it from time to time. He wants to keep his skin whole, after all!

- Have him take to a poker-like game that required cleverness as well as luck, instead of dice. His riches would feel more "deserved" then.

- Have him be able to actually truly walk away in Tear, as he always wanted, and come back of his own volition, rationalizing it with BS all the way ;).

- Have him be truly curious, looking into things, asking questions, etc. like he seemed to be in the beginning. It would have been much more satisfying if his nascent military ability before the Finns had been due to this, rather than due to the Old Blood.

- Not have his romance tied to yet another prophecy!

Then I could have seen him like many readers seem to ;).

Re: knowledge of racing/riding horses, sorry Wetlandernw, but historically peasants who only knew plow-horses were no experts. And TR is neither a prairie, nor a site of major horse fairs or races. Mat couldn't have become a horse expert back home. For that one needs to actually see lots of different horses, as well as have talent.

Happy New Year, everybody!
Tricia Irish
460. Tektonica
Oh Isilel@459:

You just don't like him! It's OK!! He is a lazy sod and always was...that is his persona. He's just not like those other trickster characters...he has a different personality and a different purpose in this book. I'm beginning to agree with whoever said it, probably welander, but he may be the ultimate deux es machina character.

PS: I still love him!
Pritesh Patil
461. MatHornsounder
Isilel @459

Also, he's the coolest character there (including Rand, Lan,ituralde and Thom and a few oothers)

we all actually like him because of the way he is written and shown to be!!

In TDR, he did not have to go into the stone to save Egsid not need to warn the Dragons Tairen and cairhienien troops about Couladin's Aiel, but he does the needful

So what if he has the help of dead mens memories??
It is he who scans through those memories and decides to take action when he could have sit down and done nothing!!

Mat Rocks!!
John Massey
462. subwoofer
Each to his own I say. I am sure that there are many reasons to like Faile, but I'm just not feeling it. Same goes for Caddy. Same goes for Elayne, Gawyn or anyone else. Each rings a chord in the individual reader, each character has qualities we can find inside ourselves. Me, by nature I am Perrin like, but I have a bit of the Mat doucheness in me. Can't be helped. For whatever reason, my wife says that's why she loves me. I thought it was my winning smile;)

For me, it is Mat's failures that make him endearing. No one is perfect, Mat just rolls with it instead of dwelling. Good way to live.

Gonna spend New Years in Lake Louise so I am outta here soon. Have netbook but will see about wifi. Take care people! May pop into the Bunker party unexpected like and half cut. If I doze off, please do not wrap me with electrical cord and leave me tied to a fire hydrant. You never know what dog has been there ;P

Pritesh Patil
463. MatHornsounder
have a good time
we'll miss your insights and wit here!
Alice Arneson
464. Wetlandernw
forkroot @457 - LOL!! Too funny! Now my 6-year-old wants me to tell her what was so funny.... I don't think it would translate to her level. :)

Isilel @ 459 - I agree with many of your thoughts re: Mat, with a couple of exceptions. (Not to pick on you or jump on a bandwagon, you understand! Just a couple of minor things.)

The poker game is already there. Mat does play cards, but usually when he either doesn't care much about winning or doesn't have access to a dice game. If he needs money, he knows that the randomness of dice will win for him. IIRC, there are times he intentionally avoids dice games for the same reason. (And as someone mentioned, he is actually quite good at stones, where no luck is involved at all.) For whatever reason, RJ deliberately made randomness a defining characteristic of Mat's luck. It would be comforting to see a clear plot necessity for it, but I doubt it will be spelled out for us any more than it already has been.

Walking away from Rand in Tear... meh. We actually only have the one series of events from Tear to Cairhien where Mat can't leave Rand because of the ta'veren pull; admittedly it's a long series and takes the better part of two books and chronologically about 4 months, so it gets old. I don't know if its a foreshadowing of something else to come or just a convenient plot device to force Mat into places he wouldn't otherwise have reasonably gone. We've seen plenty of times when Mat "did the right thing" of his own volition without being forced by the pattern, though. Maybe the contrast was important somehow. So while I don't entirely disagree, I don't agree that it would make that much difference either. It may have been simply a way to get us up to speed on the intensity of the ta'veren effect.

And that wasn't me talking about horses. I love them, but don't know that much about them. That was one of our Canadian-prairie friends. Misfortuona, I think? Not me, anyway.
Pritesh Patil
465. MatHornsounder
And, Mat does'nt leave Rand's side in Tear as the Aelfinn has told him that if he leaves Rand and does'nt go to Rhuidean, then he'll die!!

I dont know about you, but sticking with the DR is better than dying any day!!
Pritesh Patil
466. MatHornsounder
lemme up !!
lemme up!!
im here to defend Mat and Rand anytime!!!!
James Jones
467. jamesedjones
462 subwoofer
For whatever reason, my wife says that's why she loves me. I thought it was my winning smile;)
Waitaminute. Who was checking whom's teeth? Did you give us the wrong story earlier?
Bonnie Andrews
468. misfortuona
Put's up hand. Yes that was me defending Mat's knowledge of horses, and I still stand by it.

Removed/isolated or not, we see right away that people admire fine horses in the Two Rivers. (Discussion of Master Al'Mere's draft horses, and of Moraine and Lan's animals.)

Mat's dad is the master horse trader in the area. He's the guy, to make a modern analogy that people go to when they want advice on what car they should buy. He developed the reputation for knowing which would hold up, which showed signs of wear, and which was just going to quit ten miles down the road.

Race horse, draft horse, or pull the cart to town, good confirmation, an intelligent bright eye, and a deep chest all add up the same.
Tina A
469. Tinaa
Misfortuona @468

... or pull the cart to town, good confirmation, an intelligent bright eye, and a deep chest all add up the same

Are we still talking about horses here? ;)

Happy New Year to all!
Rob S
470. RobSS
Happy New Year to all!!!


New posts next year.

Can't wait
Bonnie Andrews
471. misfortuona
Works for most animals ;)

Cutting out for the night. Happy New Year everyone.
I might pop in to the bunker later, but I don't think one should drink and Travel.
Stay safe everyone.

edit: There was a k there the first time I swear it.
Alice Arneson
472. Wetlandernw
Tinaa @496 - Are we still talking about horses here? ;) LOL!!!!

And a happy new year to you too. Hope you don't get snowed in to start it off!
Roger Powell
473. forkroot
New Years Eve - time for maudlin reminiscing about the past year. Can't say as I'll think too fondly about this last year -- staring up at the ceiling in the back of an ambulance sucks and I managed to do it twice in 2009.

Of course there were a few fun things this year and I honestly have to say that you all were one of the bright spots in the year for me. The re-read, the hoopla and build up to TGS and so forth... it really was a lot of fun!

So to all of you on the re-read, thanks for being my "cyber-friends". I've really enjoyed chatting with you on this forum. Let's do it again!

Happy New Year! Have a safe and blessed 2010.
Jacy Clark
474. Amalisa
Popping in for just a wee minute... wishing everyone a safe and happy New Year!! :)
Alice Arneson
475. Wetlandernw
subwoofer - Lake Louise? Cool! Probably even downright cold, come to think of it, this time of year... Skiing, maybe? Have fun!! Hope you have wifi - we'll miss you, otherwise.

Now for some random ramblings on horses, horsemen and historical similarities... (I thought I had posted this about two hours ago, but obviously not. I was still working on it when I got interrupted. I realize part of this will echo what misfortuona already said, but... oh well. I'm not rewriting it!)

Speaking for myself this time, I don't find it all that hard to believe that a horse trader from the Two Rivers could have expert knowledge of various kinds of horses. While the TR may not have much call for racehorses, it looks like most families had horses for both work and transportation purposes. It's also quite clear that they had much more than plowhorses, for whatever reason:
It was not chance that his friends had not chosen Cloud. Master Thane often raced the spirited gray against merchants' horses, and Rand had never known him to lose, but he had never known Cloud to give anyone an easy ride, either. Lan must have given a huge price to make the miller sell.
No, I have no idea why a miller owned a horse like that, but clearly he did. Clearly, also, they had visibility of horses ridden by the occasional outsider; mostly merchants and their guards, probably, but there would have been others as well. I'm no expert, but I am given to understand that physical conformations indicative of strength, stamina and speed will be similar whether it's fine blood stock or some "mutt" ridden by a merchant. A man who lives in the town and is keenly interested in horses could readily hone his skill in identifying those physical characteristics. That would be the kind of thing that would earn him the reputation of being "the best horse trader in the Two Rivers." (tDR, Chapter 19) It seems reasonable that he would teach his son to see the same things, if said son were interested in learning. Mat obviously was.

(Interesting to note that one key to evaluating horses is the ability to look past the obvious to see what's really here "under the skin", and that's an ability that stands Mat in good stead with battle planning as well. Too bad he hasn't figured out how to apply it to personal relationships...)

I realize that peasants in medieval Europe did not have either time or opportunity for such interest. It's one of the areas where the "more or less equivalent" is less - a lot less, I think. The technology level may be about the same as medieval Europe, but the people and their history are most definitely not. When I look at the Two Rivers in particular, I think of the culture more in terms of the American west in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries. (No, I know the history isn't any closer, but the type of people and certain aspects of the culture match pretty well. We simply don't have any real-world historical situations that match. It's a fantasy.)

Distance and relative isolation are real factors in the culture, but the way the TR folks are written, they don't sound to me like peasants in a feudal society. They sound to me more like the type of courageous, curious and independent people who went "out west" (my own heritage) than the "beaten-down peasants" stereotype of medieval Europe. Partly I ascribe that perspective to what we know of their individuality, both in attitude and practice; their stubbornness and independence are not particularly stereotypical-peasant-like attributes. Partly it's the lack of actual overlordship, in spite of Andor's nominal rule. Partly it's the history of Manetheren (from Chapter 9) and our knowledge that they are the unknowing heirs of a proud, strong and independent people. Whatever the cause, I am not able to see the Two Rivers folks as medieval peasants. They weren't rich, but they were free and independent.

Okay, that wandered a bit... so far out beyond left field I don't think they have baseball out here... Thinking out loud, as it were. But it's fun to clarify these things for oneself, isn't it? At least now I know more about the way I see the TR people, and why. Whether that fits RJ's intent or not, I can't say, but it works for me.
Tricia Irish
476. Tektonica
Hey peoples.....Happy New Year!

Going to wander over to a friend's party for dinner and dancing and will hit the bunker later......but with Sub in Lake Louise (color me jealous!) where are we having this shindig?

Insectoid, are you there?

I've got salmon canapes and fresh oysters, and chocolate dipped strawberries for dessert....whose got bubbly? (It's strawberry season here in SoFla.)

Finding you all has been such fun! Chalk that up in the "positive" column for 2009. See you on the flip side....

Ron Garrison
477. Man-0-Manetheran
Sub: Lake Louise! What a beautiful spot for NYEve. I’ve always wanted to go there.

Finished my re-read of aCoS the other night (c’mon Leigh!) and I have to upgrade my opinion of the book. The writing for Mat is hilarious. There are many laugh-out-loud moments - especially after Avi works Elayne and Nyn over for their toh to Mat. Maybe I just appreciated him more this time because so many have been dissin’ him. :-)


Oh, by the way, you don’t need to be Queen Elizabeth or a Kentucky breeder to know good horses. The horse was an integral part of life in Randland. Knowledge of good horses was essential knowledge. Nowadays most people don’t know squat about horses, but rural folks 100 years ago certainly did. Wetlandernw said it very well as did Misfortuona, but I had to add my Colorado tuppence.
Thomas Keith
478. insectoid
Fork @457: BAHAHAhahaha!!

Tek @476: Hmmm? I'm a DJ, not a caterer! ;) The original cuendillar bunker would work. Fife's True Power bunker is probably not a good idea (food would spoil, etc.).

Have a safe and happy New Year, everyone!

Sam Mickel
479. Samadai
Well it is time to grab my drinks and head to my party and dance the night away.
Oh, wait, I forgot I don't drink, party or dance. I guess I will be hanging out here tonight.

I hope everyone has a safe and happy New Years Eve and a great new year. You all made it a good year for me.

Jack Diamond
480. violetdancer
Happy and healthy New Year to all. I'm looking forward to may great WOT discussions in 2010.


Your comment reminded me of the antebellum South. Not many railroads and great distances between neighbors (think Tara and Twelve Oaks). Most (men anyway) had to know horses or they'd never get out of the house. Even poor farmers had to know if a horse would pull a plow or a wagon. When war broke out the Confederate cavalry ran circles around their northern counterparts, called them "bumpkins on horseback." Not until they had two plus years of practice did Union troopers begin holding their own in cavalry battles.

One other thing. Horse trader in primitive societies may be akin to a used car salesman now. I've also assumed that being the best horse trader in the Two Rivers meant that no one could pull a fast one on old Abel, i.e., he knew enough about horesflesh to not get fooled. In fact he probably did some of the fooling himself to passing merchants and rid the Two Rivers of their broken down critters.
Bonnie Andrews
481. misfortuona
I'm very glad you went ahead and reposted, as your comments were much more eloquent and made my point much better than mine did, or could.

And violetdancer@480
It's nice to have people around who can pull bits from history to fill out personal experience and gut feelings. Well said, I too saw 'Able's Used Horse' lot on a corner in Edmonds Field.

Hope everyone's having a good evening and don't forget to spend a moment appreciating tonight's Blue Moon. :)
Darth Touma
482. Lily of the Valley
Thomas Keith
483. insectoid
Wooooooo! Wooooooo! Wooooooo!

BANG! ::confetti falls::

Alice Arneson
485. Wetlandernw
On the eighth day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Eight trademarked taglines
Seven silly surveys
Six carol parodies
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.

(Make sure you get the timing right on the winks.)

And while we're at it, happy new year!
Pritesh Patil
486. MatHornsounder
what about padan fain??

seem's he will cackle his last in TOM!

Think Rand or Mat might be the ones to take him down
John Massey
487. subwoofer
Fain is an old evil. I am thinking that even if he does meet his end, the evil that embodies him will live on. Maybe he needs to be sealed in Shayol Ghul.

I dunno. Must ponder when I have a clearer head an don't have to check out right away.

Richard Fife
488. R.Fife
(cross posting to TGS Spoilers too)
Happy New Year. Have some Auld Lang Syne, R.Fife style.

The Wheel Turns

This is a little different as it's just a solo A Capella with no beat-boxing type stuff, and it is also not a parody, but my take on Auld Lang Syne with Wheel of Time themes. Hope you enjoy, and hope the New Year is good for one and all.
Sydo Zandstra
489. Fiddler
I think Padan Fain will be done for in the end by Slayer after all.

Unless Rand balefires him. But I'd prefer Slayer, because the Shadow's major assassin deserves at least 1 on screen score...

(for the record, I'm not implying Rand can undo his Fain-wound by balefiring Fain, because he can't)
Tess Laird
490. thewindrose
Good one Wetlandernw:)

Padan Fain hates all three, but he hates and has almost a 'bond' with Rand. Remember how he could stare right where Rand was in the Fal Dara. And always chasing Rand, unless he turned the table and had Rand chase him. To me it makes the most sense for Rand to fight Fain, but we know how RJ liked to switch things up.

Tess Laird
491. thewindrose
Fiddler - It would be nice to see some competent bad guys. So do you think Slayer and Perrin are destined for a duel?

Fife, very creative! (I like how the wind is in there:))

I am still chuckling about 'Abel's used horse lot'.

Sydo Zandstra
492. Fiddler

Slayer vs. Perrin: I am sure that is a duel we are going to see. There has been enough foreshadowing for that.

Although, I'd like to see it happen where Rand and Lan get to to see the faces of Luc/Isam. It would be a waste of the concept if they didn't.

Maybe that is the second time where Perrin has to be around Rand in order to forestall disaster. This is speculating though. I don't have any of the books near.
Pritesh Patil
493. MatHornsounder
Lan might be the onw to take isam down!!

Lan also deserves a Major baddie to die at his hands!!
Tricia Irish
494. Tektonica
R.Fife@488: Very nice! Summary of 13 books in a few short sentences!

I think Lan has to deal with Luc/Isam....aren't they related? That would be justice. Of course Perrin's got an ax to grind too....double entendre!

It would be so funny to see a scene where Fain is getting all flashy with his Evil Dagger and Rand just nukes the one in the original Indy Jones, where the Bad Dude with the Scimitar is making all the showy moves and then Indy just shoots him. Doesn't sound like RJ, and it probably would be funnier as a visual, and a let down in print.

I do think it has to be Rand and Fain tho...Fain is obsessed with him. Of course, having someone thwart him and his resultant hissy fit, would be cool too.
Sydo Zandstra
495. Fiddler

Remember the told scene where Rand's real dad died in the Blight, because he faced somebody wearing Luc's face. That was Slayer.

What I meant earlier is that both Rand and Lan can face the same meeting him. With Slayer talking too ( Rand, I am your uncle; Lan, I am your cousin; Luke, I am your Father ) it would at least give both Rand and Lan a pause before acting.

Perrin, being as singleminded as he is, doesn't have that problem. If he sees Slayer, and he has seen both faces, Perrin will go for the kill right on the spot...
Ron Garrison
496. Man-0-Manetheran
Mat's Hat
There is a photo of Robert Jordan in the Tor Store section that I don't think I've seen before. He is wearing a hat that matches the description of Mat's Hat.
Darth Touma
497. alreadymadwithluc'sface
Fiddler @495
Errrr.. Rand's father claimed that his killer looked like Tigraine/ had Tigraine's face. But yeah, that was Slayer.
Sydo Zandstra
498. Fiddler

That was one of the most brilliant scenes in movie. Ever.

Fain is really a Black Horse in this race. We know that at some point he'll be taken down, but I don't think it is a sure thing that Rand will be the one to do it.

Personally, I'd like to see Nynaeve take him down with her saying something like 'You brought Trollocs to MY town, twice. You harassed a boy from MY town, often. I have felt the wound you gave to him when we cleansed Saidin. I didn't get a chance to tell you how I feel about that before now, Fain. And now I do. Say hello to oblivion...'

*Nynaeve balefires Fain*
Sydo Zandstra
499. Fiddler

I thought it was clear to everybody that Slayer was wearing Luc's face there. Whose face looked very much like Tigraine's. Which made a pause.
Sydo Zandstra
500. Fiddler
Yay. 500

I dedicate this post to subwoofer. ;)

As for expected duals to come, apart from Perrin vs. Slayer, there is also Mat vs. Gholam coming up.

I'm not touching the Egwene-Seanchan thing because

a. I'm not really a fan of Egwene. I admit she rocked in TGS though.

b. The Seanchan, as a culture, irritate me a lot. It's nice that Mat is married to the next Empress, but that doesn't diminish the fact that their way of living is just plain WRONG. I know we are talking about fiction here.
Pritesh Patil
501. MatHornsounder
fiddler @ 495

Hmm...that is a possibility,

But then, we might also see Mat take him down in the TOG,

though i want Lan to have a major kill on his name1

Also, has anyone thought that the 3 becoming 1 might refer to the three Tave'ren??
related to those colours??
Sydo Zandstra
502. Fiddler

Also, has anyone thought that the 3 becoming 1 might refer to the three Tave'ren??

There has been a lot of discussion about this in the past. Some think it is about Rand and the other 2 souls in his head.

Personally, I think it's more simple, and that it is about Rand, Mat and Perrin. The original tripod.

They see swirling colours when they think of another. As I read it, this is showing how connected they are. (it also is convenient for us readers to know who is where and when. Take for example the scene where Rand sees Perrin and Galad)

In my view, Rand, Mat and Perrin need to come together before Major Badass stuff can happen. the last time the three of them met was in Tear, end of book 3/beginning of book 4...
Pritesh Patil
503. MatHornsounder

Indeed, there is perhaps a need for them to go to Shayol gul and the pit of doom together.

Here's a looney theory:

The DO makes SH and Moridin merge with himself and so perhaps the Dragon merges with the Hornsounder and the Wolfbrother!!

Also, i think that in AMOL, the DO finally dies.
(i dont think he'll just be simply sealed up)

Perhaps the DO breaks free and the trio face him and have no choice but to kill him!
Ron Garrison
504. Man-0-Manetheran
Re. 3 in 1:
As Fiddler said, lots of speculation about WHO the three are and there was even some about WHAT the three are (saidin, saidar, True Power). I'm tending to think that the three refers to the original three: [b]RAND-MAT-[color=#0000FF]PERRIN

Incidentally, the colors Red, Green & Blue combine to make white Light.

MatHornsounder: I don't believe the DO can die. Same as the Creator. They are constants. The best that can be done is to seal him away. Here is how I see the relationship:
Pritesh Patil
505. MatHornsounder
M-O-M @ 504
if that is so, then what Moridin says is true, and one day, the DO will break free!!
woe upon all
then there wont be anything special about this turning of the wheel!!

Perhaps the DO will be shut off completely, so that no bore can be made into his prison!!

but even if it is not so, we'll continue figting,

"Till shade is gone, till water is gone,
into the Shadow with teeth bared,
screaming defiance with the last breath,
to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day."
Ron Garrison
506. Man-0-Manetheran
@Mat "then there wont be anything special about this turning of the wheel!!"

Except that there will be no more Wheel. That's the end of it all. Darkness and Death.
Alice Arneson
507. Wetlandernw
Fiddler @495 - You raise an interesting point. (I've never thought all that hard about this stuff, because it doesn't seem like a major plot point, but we've covered the major stuff so now it's time to hit the minors.)

Rand and Lan both "need" to see Slayer, to know what happened to their respective relatives. (I use "need" only in the sense that it would be satisfying for the reader.) But Slayer has been connected with Perrin in actual events since book 4, and not at all with any of the other major characters. The girls have seen him from time to time, but haven't had any interactions with him. So it makes the most sense for Perrin to take him down. And as you say, he doesn't have the cousin/uncle thing to mess with - he just knows Slayer is BAD and should be killed, as expeditiously as possible.

I have no idea how this will play out. I'm not even going to guess, because so many different scenarios are entirely plausible. RAFO.... probably next year. I'm betting he doesn't go down until the last book.

EDIT to add... Luc was Galad's uncle, too, although it's not clear that Galad was even born when Luc left for the Blight. So he'd have an interest here too.
Pritesh Patil
508. MatHornsounder
M-O-M @ 506

Edits : i meant there wont be anything special about the turning of this wheel if the DO survives or is'nt sealed off completely never to be freed!!
Ron Garrison
509. Man-0-Manetheran
*twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh*

Somehow I thought we would have a new post today from Leigh, but as I re-read her intro above I see she said "January" - but not when in January.

*twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh* *twitch* *refresh*
Alice Arneson
510. Wetlandernw
Man-o-Manetheren @509 - yeah, I'm pretty sure we won't see a new post until Monday. If nothing else, Leigh needs to be able to see what she's typed... ;)

Cool icon! Very cool indeed.
Ron Garrison
511. Man-0-Manetheran
Thanks. New year, new icon. A larger version is in my photos. It's actually the logo for Left Hand Brewing in Longmont, Colorado - purveyors of very fine beer. I call it the Beer of the Red Hand - available at al'Vere's Inn and other fine taverns in the Two Rivers.
Thomas Keith
512. insectoid
Man-0 @509: LMAO!

Heh... Beer of the Red Hand. Too bad I don't drink! ;)

EDIT: 512 = 2^9!
(Well, Blind's busy, so;) )

Sydo Zandstra
513. Fiddler

I think we agree on that one. No worries though. There are enough topics left for discussion...

And have a Very Happy New Year.
John Massey
514. subwoofer
Sub's secret to avoiding hangovers- alternate screwdrivers with ceasars and have your wife watching you like a hawk every time the cute shooter girl wonders by, then telling the girl and your friends, sorry but not tonight... a man could drink himself sober.

Thanks for the shout out Fiddler:) That means a lot to me. And I do agree, that scene from Raiders is one of the greatest, bar none. Goes to my theory of Rand buggering around with a sword when he can just zap people. Who cares that he has one hand now.

@MoM- does the brewery know about WoT? I imagine they have been around longer than the books.

To everyone- does Mat's and RJ's hats remind anybody of anything? Anybody want to talk of Latin inspirations...

And yes, with a series several thousand pages long, I think we have tons of topics for general fodder.

I just want to remind everyone that the evil of Shadar Logoth is embedded in every pebble from the place, so if Fain dies and the Dagger lives on, well, LotR anyone? And yes, Fain was tracking Rand all the way to Shienar just by feel. It was why he came to the Two Rivers during Winter Night and brought the Trollocs too. I also remember in the Great Hunt and another book where Fain is frothing at the mouth at al'Thor's luck at escaping him. Made a Fade wimper about it.

Luc/Isam- Perrin's domaine. Luc is marked for death. However it is written for Rand or Lan, say Rand gets a case of mistaken identity or Luc pulls a fast one on Lan, Perrin kills him.

John Massey
515. subwoofer
Re 3 becoming one- Not quite the Wonder Twins, but the boys have to be back in town together for the real fireworks to start. Without 3 ta'veren using close proximity to amplify their powers and bend the Pattern further, Rand is beast bait and so are the others out on their own.

Edit- who are these people pandering for freebies? Making it hard for honest TOR abiding citizens to switch between threads. I ask you!

Thomas Keith
516. insectoid
Sub @514: Re: Raiders, I agree that was a great scene. That and the melting Nazis;)

Re: people deserting us for freebies: We must simply do our best to "bump" the WoT threads so they stay visible;)

Thomas Keith
517. insectoid
5 + 1 + 7 = 13 ::chuckles foolishly::

Filling in for Blind;)

EDIT: My 200th comment on! Wooo! :P

John Massey
518. subwoofer
I'm game, keeps me out of doing manual labor... darn, wife heard me thinking.

John Massey
519. subwoofer
@MatHS- don't forget Fel's thing about the DO's prison being made whole at the full turning of the Wheel. Unless the DO breaks free that is what will happen. As for the DO breaking free... I don't want to give away the ending, but I have a feeling that at the end of this series, the good guys win. This isn't Hamlet or Macbeth.

Alice Arneson
520. Wetlandernw
On the ninth day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Nine gender battles
Eight trademarked taglines
Seven silly surveys
Six carol parodies
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.

(Make sure you get the timing right on the winks.)
Sydo Zandstra
521. Fiddler

You're welcome ;)

I just want to remind everyone that the evil of Shadar Logoth is embedded in every pebble from the place, so if Fain dies and the Dagger lives on, well, LotR anyone?

There aren't any pebbles left from Shadar Logoth, since it's a big smoking crater now (I put in the smoke because it adds to the picture).

So it's just Fain and the Dagger to get rid of.


Now I'm thinking of the Evilness of the Dagger, I wonder what would happen if somebody threw it into deep sea, like they originally planned with the male a'dam. Would there be a species of very angry cruel fish?

I know. Having a big imagination is not always a good thing. ;)
Tricia Irish
522. Tektonica
Hi Sub::waves:: Happy New Year! What's a caesar? I need all the help I can get if I take a drink....I used to be good at partying, but not anymore....can't take it. Getting older isn't for sissies.

As for the hat....can you say Gaucho? I can get behind Mat as a gaucho! What say you, M-O-M, Band of the Red Hand leader?

And thanks for the clip from Indy Jones. So funny when I first saw it, I burst out laughing in the theater. Can you see Rand as Indy, just a wee balefire instead of a bullet? (as per #494).

Fiddler@521: If you threw the dagger in the ocean, would the poison from it slowly spread throughout the sea, since each water molecule touches other?Killing all sea life? That would be bad. Ummm...I'm for balefire. It destroys objects too, doesn't it?
Sydo Zandstra
523. Fiddler

I guess it would be a sea creature thing. It didn't spread through air from SL after all. And then there are lobsters, able crawling onto land...

Alfred Hitchcock would have loved the concept. ;)

And yes, I'm with you on the balefiring. Makes things less complicated. :D
John Massey
524. subwoofer
I believe Yanks call them Bloody Maries. And yes, I do recall there being a big pit made by Rand when he cleansed Saidin. That being said, it would not surprise me if a pebble escaped, or if somebody saw the ruby on the dagger and got greedy- hey, it happened with Mat. Mordeth could live on despite everything, one of the baddies in a movie that everyone thinks is dead and then comes back to life, a la any Lethal Weapon movie.


I think Rand is at the point now where he wants to stop buggering around now and cut to the chase in everything. Would be satisfying if Fain putzed around with the Dagger and Rand big time bale-fired him.

Sydo Zandstra
525. Fiddler

So Fain is now officially Freddie Krueger. ;)
Tess Laird
526. thewindrose
I think we have found Matrim Cauthon in our Age, ladies and gentlemen(and Tuon as well;)):

Sub's secret to avoiding hangovers- alternate screwdrivers with ceasars and have your wife watching you like a hawk every time the cute shooter girl wonders by, then telling the girl and your friends, sorry but not tonight... a man could drink himself sober.

Also, sub @524, I remember you saying that Fain has a bit of the Gollum thing going on. I think he will inadvertently help Rand in the end(aMoL), and then the volcano(err Balefire) for him - or I suppose that Shayol Ghul will be going up in flames(hmmmm).

Jay Dauro
527. J.Dauro
Subwoofer @514

I have always loved that scene. But even more after I found that it wasn't originally written that way.

Darth Touma
528. alreadymadwiththetaint
Wetlandernw @507
I thought Luc didn't leave for the Blight until after Tigraine disappear. Galad would have been born by then. Whether he'd be old enough to remember is another matter.
subwoofer @524
I doubt a pebble escaped.I always thought it was all the Taint on Saidin vs. all the evil of Shadar Logoth, that mutual annihilation occurred and nothing of either one was left.
Bonnie Andrews
529. misfortuona
Good Morning everyone. Hope you all made it through the festivities unscathed.

I'm at work today, no dialup so I finally got to see your latest work. I found it moving actually. Well done. I could almost claim a tear, but I think that was left over from the windchill. It was a long walk from car to door this morning.

Thanks for reminding me that the Raiders scene was not planned that way. I've always loved it as well, especially paired with the later scene where the gun isn't there.

I have had my suspicions about Sub for some time actually. They began with his promise, and follow through, to build the bunker. We'll have to send him a hat. ;D

edit: Built to build. I have to start reading these things twice before I hit post. :)
John Massey
530. subwoofer
@AMWtheyswitchedmytoothpastewithhemorrhoidcream- well, it is all conjecture on my part, but I would not be surprised if some entrepreneur sets up a stand on the Four Kings roadside hawking souvenirs of Arihdol, pebbles for a silver penny, chunks of wall or daggers for a silver mark.

Taint of Saidin was from the DO so I am sure that could be resurrected. Ages come and go and things are very cyclical. People still fear the Dragon for Breaking the world. I have a feeling that if the histories were examined, that has happened more than once. Asmo found part of his home city that was a port kinda dry docked. The WoT world changes. Especially when some people have the power to crush cities.

Absence of gun was from Temple of Doom. And er... that was a crappy thing to have happen. Getting the runs in 130° heat. And the only hat I wear is a fedora similar to Indy. He's the man. Um.... and Lan is too.

I'm no bloody lord.

Sydo Zandstra
531. Fiddler
Indy is the man!

I thought that Asmodean seeing that dock on the mountain was showing how huge the Breaking of the World was, and that he commented on what city it could have been.

Didn't Asmodean oversee the complete wreckage of his Home City because they criticized his music?

Let's be thankful that LadyGaGa cannot channel...
John Massey
532. subwoofer
I thought the thing that cemented Asmo was that he had a mom that could channel and he Stilled her and sold her out. Yes Asmo was vain for his composing, but I think he just killed the competition, not whole cities. But I do vaguely remember Asmo saying something about how the world changes and he does not really remember much from being sealed in the Bore.

I don't want to get into a big Asmo discussion as that will just rehash things best put to bed, I just remember something about how the world has changed several times since the initial breaking. There have been hints by all these random cities and spires and such that show of faded glory and strife.

And even though it was 20 years after the fact, I am still grateful that they tried to make another Indy movie. Yes Harrison is a geezer, but I still have the tee from Last Crusade and there has not been much in that genre since. A truly great idea. But if Shia/Shea- that kid picks up the whip... grrrrrrr.

Sydo Zandstra
533. Fiddler
I'm not interested in a big Asmodean discussion as well, subwoofer ;)

Crystal Skull wasn't that bad. It had Marion in it, after all, and Indy and Marion bantering was a big part of the fun in Raiders of the Lost Arc. Indy being rescued from quicksand by holding on to a snake was fun. The Area 51 scene where we got a glimpse of the Arc was a nice touch. The ants were scary.

The whole ET element sucked though.
Ron Garrison
534. Man-0-Manetheran
@514 Sub
Actually, Left Hand Brewing began in 1993, so WoT is the older. Their brewery is near the Indian Peaks wilderness and they took the name Left Hand in honor of Chief Niwot, a famous Arapahoe chief. Niwot means “left hand” in Arapahoe. For more, go here.

As for the hat...well, it’s not a style just anyone can get away with. Looks OK on RJ and Zorro, but me? I don’t think so.

@527 J.Dauro
Thanks for that chunk of vital information. I did not know that. I stand illuminated; praise the Light!

*Tips Hat*™
Darth Touma
535. Bloody Buttered Onions
A thought on the horses. Why does Rand & Co. keep storing things under the girth of the saddle? Like bows and other things. The girth is usually very snug. No horse would put up with that for very long, it would be quite painful. Also how did they feed & water the horses on the journey through the ways, back in the first books; some of the trips took several days. just wondering....
Darth Touma
536. MatHornsounder
M-O-M @ above
you said the hat looks ridiculous on you, so how can you tip it if you dont wear it??

Padan Fain Die!!
shouts Rand and Balefire's him::zap::

that is it, end of the road for Fain and Mordeth!!

perhaps Mat has something more to do with the Dagger??!!

Sub@somewhere above
Rand coming back when Mat blows the Horn is possible, but i dont think that it will happen.

In ACOS, Egs has a dream of a man's funeral pyre burning with 3 women standing by with moiraine, also another man was dying inside, but it was necessary that he not die!!

This might be about Rand's to LIVE YOU MUST DIE!!


I think that at the end of each turning of the wheel, when Shivan destroys the world, the Nxet age and turning begins, and the Heroes are reborn as normal people and the wheel tests them again,
or it may be that the Heroes stay connected to the wheel in TAR, as it might not be destroyed, and normal people also get a chance to become heroes!!
(Hawkwing tells Hurin in TGH, that the wheel might let him join their Ranks!!)
Darth Touma
537. alreadymadwithsaddles
Bloody Buttered Onions @535
I don't think it's actually tucked into the girth as hanging under it. If you rig something to tie it with under the girth, that sounds like a good place to store long objects like bows.
Bonnie Andrews
538. misfortuona
I'm not sure if we ever get a really good description of the saddles used in RL, but some of the older saddle types had girths that went either over the saddle, or started much higher along the sides. Longer objects, swords and shorter horse bows, could have been slipped in there, anglewise under the leg, without bothering a horse.
I am, however, at a loss as to how a TR longbow could be attached anywhere on a horse comfortably. I would expect that an archer would have carried them, used a stirrup cup, or slung them across their back.

Historians unite?
Ron Garrison
539. Man-0-Manetheran
Mat - I didn't say ALL hats looked bad on me, just that one would. (See photos on my home page.)

@538 Misfortuona
Historically, long bows are carried by foot soldiers. Horse soldiers carried a short bow. Do I see a new icon on your post? an a'dam? mis-fortuona indeed!
Pritesh Patil
540. MatHornsounder
just a little joke my friend

the worst ending to the WOT series:

The Dark one turns out to be the creator in disguise!!
Bonnie Andrews
541. misfortuona
I think hanging something under a girth, if I'm picturing what your talking about correctly, sounds like a good way to trip/spook or generally wreck a horse.
Clarification please?

Yes it's a new icon. I actually incorporates Mat's dice as well, but it didn't come out right. My daughter tells me she can do a much better job, so hopefully she'll manage what I couldn't. Probably can she's 12.
And I know that longbows are carried by foot soldiers, but at least some of our characters (MAT) carries his bow on horseback as well. It's a pretty minor thing, but one that I've always wondered about when reading, not only fantasy, but historical fiction as well.

Darth Touma
542. alreadymadwithbows
Misfortuona @542
Not low enough to trip the horse. Probably just at the same level or slightly higher than stirrups. And yes Mat and practically everyone of the Two Rivers archers Perrin has with him carry their bows on their horses. They just don't fire them while mounted. They have to get off the horses to fire them longbows. This is in contrast with the horse bows used by Talmanes and his cavalry when harassing the Seanchan at the end of KOD.
Darth Touma
543. ctkierst
Ceasars versus Bloody Marys @524

Actually, not quite the same thing. The Ceasar is a Canadian thing, I've only ever received blank looks in the USA when asking for one. Similar though. A Ceasar is Clamato (clam and tomato juice) with vodka, tabasco, worchester sauce and usually rimmed with celery salt. Served with a piece of celery or pickle. As far as I was aware, a Bloody Mary was just tomato juice and vodka.
Bonnie Andrews
544. misfortuona
Okay, I'm sure that this is just my lack of understanding, but what I'm picturing you mean is a bow stave hung front to back under the belly of the horse. Is this right? =O


mmmm Ceasar!! They are also quite tasty with tequilla instead of vodka!
Tricia Irish
545. Tektonica
ctkierst@543: I make a great Bloody Mary, if I do say so myself. Recipe:

Worchestershire sauce, splash
celery salt
Horseradish...lots for me
Wedge of lemon
Served with a celery stalk.

Yum. Too bad I'm on the wagon for a month...I just made my mouth water!

Various @ Bows: Couldn't you carry the Long Bow in something like a rifle holster on the saddle. They are long and mounted vertically in front of the knee and tied onto the saddle? I don't have much experience with this gear, but have seen some uncles with rigs like that for hunting. I would think it would work for a bow as well.

Sub: You are just too funny. Thanks for saying "Gaucho". LOL.

This tread is a riot...eveything from serious theory to cocktails and horse gear.
John Massey
546. subwoofer
Bloody Alcoholics...

@Tek- anytime:)

Edit- best caesar I had was with a heavy salted rimmer mix and pickled asparagus for the garnish. Soooo good.

Getting thirsty...

Maiane Bakroeva
547. Isilel
Historically, some English longbowmen also rode for transportation, but fought on foot. Fiscal lists for English armies during the 100 Year War, for instance, reflect this fact. I have no idea how they transported their bows, though.

Sticking stuff under the saddle girths doesn't seem plausible, however.
Pritesh Patil
548. MatHornsounder

Forget the flaming saddles!!
there's the bloody prophecies,song,tinkers,DO,etc left to be discussed about!!!!

BTW, can Sammael be brought back to life by the DO?

(wont it be cool, if rand brings forth an army of Dragons to face the worms and its like in the Blight!!!!!

::yawns, going to sleep::

Sleep well and Wake people.
Thomas Keith
549. insectoid
Wind @526: Of course...that explains everything! ;)

Sub @530: AMWtheyswitchedmytoothpaste... BAHAHAhahaha!!

Oh yeah...and Indy rules! (I actually have an Indy fedora.) Didn't think much of Kingdom; having Cate Blanchett as a villain was creepy. The Area 51 scene where we catch a glimpse of the Ark was cool, though. However, Raiders is still my favorite by far.

Bonnie Andrews
550. misfortuona
The more I think about this the more I it bugs me. I think it most likely that RJ, and other authors, use girth when they really mean they are carrying swords and such between the skirt/flap and the fender/stirrup leather.
For those who don't know what we're talking about.

The rifle holder idea might work, but the long bows are 5'-6'long, compared to a rifle at 46" This is sort of stupid, I’ll admit but I always find it’s the little things that nag at me. I’m pretty sure that the TR boys carried those staves in their hands, and never fastened them anywhere on their horses. There just doesn’t seem to be anywhere to put a stick that long where you wouldn’t be fouling up the horse, catching it on branches, or smacking yourself in the head with it.

Okay, I'm satisfied unless someone else comes up with something better.

Happy Posting

Wait Horseradish in a Ceasar???
Bonnie Andrews
551. misfortuona
Sorry, I just had a moment there. Now I understand why Bloody Mary's taste wrong. Horseradish, just isn't as civilized as clam juice. ;P

Darth Touma
552. ValMar
@ various, re mounted archers.
In the Agincourt campaign of 1415, in the army of Henry V were listed 4128 mounted archers and 3771 foot archers (according to Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas in History of the battle of Agincourt).

Therefore, it was common for longbowmen to travel on horse. I don't know how exactly they carried their bows. I guess it wasn't much of a problem.
Tricia Irish
553. Tektonica
Maybe I should just edit my recipe for the Bloody Mary above @545, but yes, horseradish is key!!! The more the merrier for me.

But I forgot to add: wedge of lemon! Essential.

Some people do make Bloodys with Clammato juice, and some with beefamato juice (?) but just give me good ol' V-8.

Mathornsounder@548: You must get so frustrated with us going off on tangents. Keeps us from going bats......I'm sure you'll keep us on track!
Ron Garrison
554. Man-0-Manetheran
Best horseradish? Beaver Brand from out Samadai's way.

And I like my Bloody Maria's with tequila and Herdez Picante Limon - it's a product of Mexico like V8 but with spice and lime!
Alice Arneson
555. Wetlandernw
alreadymad... @528 - Nope. Luc headed for the Blight in 971, Tigraine left for the Waste in 972. Galad might have been born before Luc left, but Tigraine told of leaving an "infant son" so he couldn't have been a whole lot more than a year when she left. In any case, probably not old enough to remember Luc.
Rob Munnelly
556. RobMRobM
Hi to all - been away down near Philly visiting friends, picking up wife and kids and one of our friends, and taking all home.

Wet - very much looking forward to the next few days on your magnum opus.

Re brewing co logo - WoT might have started before it but Bank of Red Hand hit the plot after it, so no cause and effect.

General- I've also done my re-read of CoT and it (sadly) confirmed my impression it is one of my least favorite WoT books. The comedic scenes in Ebou Dar definitely offer several highlights and the Into the Woods scenes with Darlin and Caraline and the Daughter of the Sands bit are great, but there are lots and lots of draggy scenes - post Dumai Wells worrying about Rand; early Ebou Dar sitting around and getting attacked by Mat; Egwene sitting around and learning how to manage the other sisters and the Army in face of Sheriam's whining; Rand whining after he gets his groove on with Min; etc. Surprisingly few awesome chapters with lots of slow moving filler. Not so great, IMO, compared to the better books.

Alice Arneson
557. Wetlandernw
On the tenth day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Ten thousand twitches
Nine gender battles
Eight trademarked taglines
Seven silly surveys
Six carol parodies
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.
Tricia Irish
558. Tektonica

Welcome back! Have you kept up with the madness? We are mixing cocktails now...need a new reread from Leigh. Desperation here. Hope you had a good Christmas/New Years! And yeah, not looking forward to CoT much....I hope Leigh can make it funny.

M-O-M@554: Now I have to scour our local bodegas for Herdez Picante Limon, damn. Never seen Beaver Brand Horseradish...California? We get the good kosher Gold's here in New York South. It's good. New Yorkers know from horseradish.

Today's purge the house day and get back to normal. Time to undecorate. Boy that went fast!
Rob Munnelly
559. RobMRobM
Tek - keep in mind that way back in the re-read Leigh teased that the Tylin-Mat scenes particularly ticked her off. Should be plenty of fireworks in her discussion of the various raped at knifepoint scenes. Good times. Rob

Ps. Have not kept up with the madness. Will check in now.

Pps. Wet-well done!
Pritesh Patil
560. MatHornsounder
RobM @ 559

Thats going to be a hilarious time!!

::this is quite a slow day::

Narishma, i am surprised no one has any thoughts on him!!
Ron Garrison
561. Man-0-Manetheran
Tek @558
Beaver Brand horseradish is from Oregon. Since you know Colorado, you probably know of the historic Brown Palace Hotel in Denver. They ran out of Beaver Brand one day, and they had a near riot from the diners who expected it with their roast beef.
Tess Laird
562. thewindrose
Wetlandernw -
Where will you put days 11 and 12?
There should be a new post from Leigh tomorrow.

In the Midwest we like Silver Spring horseradish, made in Wisconsin. That stuff will clean your sinuses out in no time flat! It is good on ham, I haven't heard about using it in a Bloody Mary though!

Thomas Keith
563. insectoid
Wind @562: Would make sense to keep all the 12 days in one place, but that's up to Wet. :)

Darth Touma
564. jerome248
misfortuona @ 550:

Just putting my 2 cents in for the staff of 2Rivers bows on a horse. It just goes under the leg of the rider under the saddle on the side of the horse.

I know cause that's how I used to carry my hockey stick on my motorcycle in my younger days...

Anyway just thought I introduce myself in here... long time reader, never posted before... Hello everyone...
Bonnie Andrews
565. misfortuona
Hello again. Just popping in to check what's going on here, and who would have thunk it, more bow suggestions.

Welcome to the madness.

I know modern hunters carry their bows in scabbards as you describe, angled downward along the front of the saddle, or on a sling over their shoulder, but there aren't many people who carry an old fashioned long bow on a hunt these days.

Yes I have given this way more thought than it's worth. I've decided to experiment as soon as it's warm enough that I want to go play with the equines again. Perhaps I'll find that what I perceive as a problem really isn't. Of course I’ll have to find a longbow somewhere. At any rate I am done with this topic here.

Thanks everyone for their patience and input.

Jack Diamond
566. violetdancer
Haven't been able to get any signal since December, but there's something out there now.

Re: longbows and horses.

I've always assumed that something that long would be carried the same way lances and flags are carried. Some sort of cup-like holder near the stirrup, one end goes in it, and one hand holds it. Must be a good enough rider to control beast with knees and one hand on reins.
Tricia Irish
567. Tektonica
Wet@562: I learned to make Bloodies at college in Iowa, and we used Silver Spring Horseradish there too. You are still in the midwest, aren't you? And no horseradish in your Bloodies? Horrors!

When I met my husband, an east coast guy, we had a competition to see who could make the best Bloody, and they ended up being the same! Match made in heaven, eh? (We were young and in need of more bloodies back then.)

MOM@561: OK, next time I'm in Denver I'll pick up some Beaver Brand horseradish as well as the Picante stuff. I'll bring a second suitcase to lug all my goodies home. Always up for trying a new condiment.

Jerome@564:: Waves:: Welcome! Pardon our digressions....we are twitching for a new reread post.

Misfortuona@565: We expect a full report on bow carrying in the spring. So glad someone sweats the details...I'm a big picture kind of girl.
John Massey
568. subwoofer
Well, I just want to throw it out there that the issue with a long bow is not the carrying, its the shooting. The draw weight for something like that is probably in the mid 100's if not higher and to do that in a saddle and have room, well, that's a challenge. Everyone would have to be built like Perrin to draw it. That is why most horsemen use a shorter horn bow so they can move it around the durn horse and get a full draw out of it. Unless the guy is built like an ox and shooting from the back of a camel. Then, no problem.

I'm a pretty strong guy myself and I could not keep tension or do a repeated draw for my compound and that is a bow with a draw weight of 82. A huge Two River bow would be mind boggling to draw standing up on two feet braced properly, let alone doing it from horseback. I'd be better off laying about with it as a staff, beaning people on the head.

Alice Arneson
569. Wetlandernw
Re: Christmas days 11 and 12, I'll post 11 late tonight (it'll be past midnight on the East Coast, anyway), so that will be before Leigh's post. I'll probably put 12 on both threads, since it's only the one day.

jerome248 @564 - Hello and welcome! Good input on the bow. Hockey sticks... very versatile things, hockey sticks. :)

misfortuona @565 - I'm actually glad you brought it up, since it always bugged me too. It's a LONG time since I've ridden - ever since I developed a horrible allergy to horses. (Very sad - I can't get within about 10 feet of a horse without getting the whole skin-and-respiratory-allergy business going. Brought my already-sporadic riding to a complete stop.) Anyway, I just had to assume that I was misremembering something about the way a saddle girth worked. It seemed to me that a girth loose enough to allow a staff or bow to be readily inserted would probably dump the rider off the first time they put more weight on one stirrup than the other. To say nothing of irritating the horse, who would then have a vested interest in dumping said rider.

Tektonica @567 - 562 was thewindrose, not me. Confusing names, though - it's hard to keep everyone straight. I'm actually out in the wetlands of northwestern Washington state. I learned to make a Bloody Mary while waitressing in college. Since I knew absolutely nothing about it, I just followed the recipe in the bartenders "cookbook" and was told that it was the best the customer ever had. As I recall, the recipe I followed didn't involve horseradish, though. I've never made another - or drunk one, for that matter. (I go for Tanqueray & tonic OR spanish coffee OR tequila sunrise. Also, a large water or tonic after every two drinks if I'm having that much. I do NOT appreciate hangovers. One was quite enough, thank you; I've never repeated the experience.)

Thomas Keith
571. insectoid
5 + 7 + 1 = 13 ::chuckles foolishly::

Still filling in;)

Alice Arneson
572. Wetlandernw
Thank you. :)

Alice Arneson
573. Wetlandernw
On the eleventh day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Eleven headdesk comments
Ten thousand twitches
Nine gender battles
Eight trademarked taglines
Seven silly surveys
Six carol parodies
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.
craig thrift
574. gagecreedlives
Hey peeps Im back. Hope everybody out there in reread land had a great festive season.

Lily of the Valley@278

Still haven’t checked it out but will asap I promise. And I also promise to check out your chipmunks R.Fife


“But later cretins like Kiruna or Joline? Should have darwinated out long ago, unless they spent all their lives hiding in the Tower.”



Loved it. Although if Rand is champ and choosing his challengers could Mat end up being the Don King of Randland.


Please tell me you used that in your wedding speech after a few “iced teas’


If they release it on the Wii wonder if we will get the opportunity to weave the one power. Or get a remote with a heron on it.


I don’t know what Fisher-mania is. Sounds like what you would get if you crossed Siuan with Vince McMahon


And he would of got away with it too if it wasn’t for those meddling kids.

Finally got through all the comments now off to tGS thread to catch up there.
Thomas Keith
575. insectoid
GCL @574:
I don’t know what Fisher-mania is. Sounds like what you would get if you crossed Siuan with Vince McMahon...



Pritesh Patil
577. MatHornsounder
Gucci @ 576
enough of it!!
this is a book discussion group, not clothes discussion
(unless they are WOT related!!)

Need to send some Darkhounds on you or give you to Sorilea!!
Sydo Zandstra
578. Fiddler
What is the world coming to, if companies start spamming book blogs now...


And he would of got away with it too if it wasn’t for those meddling kids.

Great. Now I'm starting to picture WoT characters as members from the Scoobie Gang... ;-)
Rob Munnelly
580. RobMRobM
@574 and 578. I vote Elayne as Daphne, Egwene as Velma, Rand as Freddy, Mat as Shaggy and Bela (or, alternatively, Loial) as Scooby Doo.
craig thrift
581. gagecreedlives
Im not sure about the rest of the characters but I can so see Faile as Scrappy Doo.
Tina A
582. Tinaa
Leigh's new post is up, twitchers can relax.
Roger Powell
583. forkroot
G'Day Mate. Hope you had a good NY celebration. The wife and I have great memories of seeing Y2K in Down Under (in Melbourne) ten years ago. Unfortunately our luggage spent Y2K in Singapore, but that's another story.

I see the new post went up while I composed this.
That's fine, I'll leave these memories of Fischer-mania at the end of this post chain.

For the benefit of those who don't recall it: In 1972, Bobby Fischer (an erratic genius from the USA) took on the Soviet chess "machine" when he defeated Boris Spassky for the world championship.

Fischer was the poster child for the old joke: "Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you!". He was absolutely correct about Soviet collusion during the interzonal tournaments (part of the challengers cycle) as well as other malfeasance. Nevertheless, he had serious mental issues that got worse over the years.

It was damn close to a miracle that the match itself took place - Fischer threatened to walk out numerous times, and even forfeited Game 2. When he could be brought to the board though, he was brilliant - a chess genius for the ages.

This was still the height of cold war times and the match captivated the USA. All of a sudden, everyone was interested in chess. The USCF (US Chess Federation) had a surge in membership, chess books flew off bookstore shelves, etc. It was a great time for teachers, grandmasters, chess studio owner and others who made some of their income from chess.

Perhaps chess would have taken hold more strongly in the US psyche if Fischer had stayed in the spotlight; alas, his World Championship was the last serious play for him. When it came time to defend his title, he insisted on match conditions that FIDE (the international body that controlled the world championship) would not bow to. He was stripped of the title and his challenger, Anatoly Karpov was declared the new World Champion.

Those of us who considered ourselves serious players would divide our time between grimacing over Bobby's outrageous behavior and wondering over the genius in his games.
Thomas Keith
584. insectoid
You can all thank me for flagging the spammer. Things like that on a book blog really ruffle my scales.

Off to the new post.

craig thrift
585. gagecreedlives

Glad you had a good time down under. But I must confess that while your Fisher-Mania story was interesting I was a little disappointed with the lack of a)bodyslams and b)marlins.
Alice Arneson
586. Wetlandernw
On the twelfth day of Christmas,
tordotcom gave to me
Twelve looney theories
Eleven headdesk comments
Ten thousand twitches
Nine gender battles
Eight trademarked taglines
Seven silly surveys
Six carol parodies
Five spanking wars ;) ;)
Four bunker parties
Three rickrolls
Two fiction fictions
And a light-up dingle ball on the screen.

Happy Twelfth Night, y'all.
John Massey
587. subwoofer
Loony theories? I am telling you, everything is tied into my possessed small clothes idea;)

Well done Wet, and you forgot your splash too;)

William McDaniel
593. willmcd
I noted how RJ used a Perrin perspective for the first 6 chapters of the book, to deliberately (I think) give us our first look at Rand post-"man in the box" from an outside perspective. We see his volaitility, and how his ongoing dialogue with "Lews Therin" is visible to others, and get the briefest of glimpses of the "Old Rand", with his humanity and compassion.

RJ used Perrin's perspective in this same way back in TGS Ch31, when Ingtar's party arrives in Cairhien, to show us how Rand had developed as a leader during his time traveling with Loial and Hurin.

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