Oct 19 2009 3:41pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Lord of Chaos, Part 31

Greetings, WOTers! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Re-read!

Today’s post covers Chapter 54 through to the end of Lord of Chaos, in which... well. You know good and well what happens here. (“Well”, ha ha, geddit? Geddit? Ged- um. Ahem. Yes, I’ll stop that now. Yes, I know. Yes, I’m sorry.)

Previous entries are here. This and all prior posts contain spoilers for all currently published novels of the Wheel of Time series up to and including Knife of Dreams, so if you haven’t read, don’t read.

The Prologue of The Gathering Storm, “What the Storm Means,” is available for download here on or at multiple online vendors. Chapter 1 is still available as well, and Chapter 2 is available in audio format. Please refrain from posting spoilers for either the Prologue or Chapters 1-2 in the posts for the Re-read, in order to protect those who have not yet read them, or do not intend to before the release of the entire book. Spoiler discussion is going on at the respective posts announcing the releases, linked above; please keep them there. Thanks.

Before we start, a by-now-traditional brief look at the cover artwork on the last post on the book, so you can learn that LOC’s cover is possibly my least favorite of all the American edition covers, beating out even Power-Walking Rand (ACOS) and The Little Woman Cooks On The Oregon Trail (TSR). Mostly because the scene on LOC’s cover seems to depict a Dumai’s Wells that took place in an alternate universe that had Draghkar at the battle, and Rand having time to send his clothes out for dry-cleaning, ‘cause that guy sure doesn’t look like he’s been beaten and stuffed in a chest for days on end. Also, the Aes Sedai looks like she got her hair done at a Facts of Life convention. You know, if they had those. (I really hope they don’t.)

Also also, a non-WOT-reading friend of mine once happened to see this cover, and announced, “That? Is patriarchy.” Which kind of made me laugh hysterically, all things considered.

So, yeah. Read on, and stay tuned at the end for An Announcement. DUN – maybe.

Chapter 54: The Sending

What Happens
Perrin, Gaul, and Loial head through the city to the docks (Gaul is terribly scandalized by the revelers – not their nudity, but their public kissing), and Perrin thinks of how Faile had refused to kiss him goodbye, but had whispered something instead:

“If you fall,” she whispered, “I will take up your sword.”

He was still not sure whether she meant him to hear or not. Her scent had been such a jumble he could make nothing out.

He had been terrified she was going to insist on coming along, but when Rhuarc talked Berelain out of leading her Winged Guards with them (Perrin is confused by the father-daughter aspect of their scents), Faile left off her intention to come as well, to Perrin’s great relief. Perrin bribes a ferryman to scrounge up enough sweepers to ferry them across the river. The ferry workers laugh and joke at first, but their passengers’ grim mien soon silences them, and they reach the other side and meet up with two hundred Mayener Winged Guards, led by Havien Nurelle, and Dobraine with his five hundred armsmen of House Taborwin. Perrin notes that the Mayeners seem young and eager, while the Cairhienin look grim.

They had seen fighting. In Cairhien, they called it “seeing the wolf.”

That nearly made Perrin laugh. It was not time for the wolves yet.

They head out, and are soon joined by Rhuarc, Nandera, Sorilea, Amys, and a second Maiden who Perrin realizes after a moment is Sulin. Rhuarc tells him he has a little more than five thousand spears from various societies – all he could get without unduly raising suspicion – plus a thousand Maidens, which he had had to insist on to keep all the Maidens from coming, “carrying a torch to tell the world that Rand al’Thor is in danger”. Sulin and Nandera both flush, and start to retort at the same time, then glare at each other. Sulin looks away, and Nandera tells Rhuarc stiffly that the Maidens gave their pledge to follow him. Perrin doesn’t really get what’s going on there, but doesn’t really care, more concerned with the numbers.

Six thousand Aiel, five hundred of Dobraine’s armsmen, and two hundred Winged Guards. Against six Aes Sedai, their Warders and some five hundred guards apparently, that should be enough. Except. The Aes Sedai held Rand. If they put a knife to his throat, would anyone dare lift a hand?

Amys tells him they also have ninety-four Wise Ones, all of whom are strong channelers. But then she adds that Sorilea is leading them, and Perrin thinks if all of them are as weak channelers as Sorilea then even almost a hundred Wise Ones may be no match for six Aes Sedai, but does not propose to look a gift horse in the mouth. He tells them all that the Aes Sedai must be at least seventy miles ahead of them, and they will have to press hard; it doesn’t occur to him to question that he is the one in charge. They make thirty-five miles that day, and that night, Perrin lays down and seeks out the wolves. He asks them, in wolf parlance, about the Aes Sedai ahead of him, thinking that it was only by chance he had discovered the wolves can tell the difference between a channeler and a non-channeler. The wolves relay back to him the picture of the camp, and Perrin works out from their information that the Aes Sedai are sixty to seventy miles ahead. Then one of the wolves asks him why he wants to know.

Perrin hesitated before answering. He had dreaded this. He felt about the wolves as he did about Two Rivers people. They have caged Shadowkiller, he thought at last. That was what the wolves called Rand, but he had no idea whether they considered Rand important

The shock filling his mind was answer enough, but howls filled the night, near and far, howls filled with anger and fear. In the camp horses whinnied fearfully, stamping their hooves as they shied against the picket ropes. Men ran to calm them, and others to peer into the darkness as if expecting a huge pack to come after the mounts.

We come, Half Tail replied at last. Only that, and then others answered, packs Perrin had spoken to and packs that had listened silently to the two-legs who could speak as the wolves did. We come. No more.

The next day, the wolves stay out of sight, but Perrin can feel several hundred of them nearby and more on the way. They travel for four days, slowly gaining on the Tower party, in the meantime discussing what to do when they catch up. Both Dobraine and Rhuarc fatalistically favor just charging in, which Perrin doesn’t find very helpful. Loial tells him that by Tower law, a man must be taken to the Tower before he can be gentled, but points out that the embassy had spoken of “honoring” Rand, so surely they could not be planning that, and surely they are treating him well. Perrin thinks “a prisoner is a prisoner” no matter how they are treating him. Loial also points out that every story about Aes Sedai capturing men “of great power” insist that they gather thirteen sisters, and therefore expresses doubt that there are only six sisters in the party ahead of them; Perrin agrees with his logic, but it only makes his dilemma worse. He thinks that surely they would not gentle the Dragon Reborn, but then again he thinks that he neither understands nor trusts Aes Sedai, even the ones who had tried to show themselves as friends. Loial has meanwhile digressed into talking about Erith, and wants to know what it is like to be married; Perrin waxes rhapsodic about Faile for a while, omitting to mention their current troubles, but then Loial asks if all wives are so jealous as Faile.

“Jealousy?” Perrin said stoutly. “Faile is not jealous. Where did you get that idea? She is perfect.”

“Of course she is,” Loial said faintly, peering into his pipe bowl. “Do you have any more Two Rivers tabac? All I have after this is some sharp Cairhienin leaf.”

Perrin is also worried about the tension between the Cairhienin and the Aiel, and hopes the Mayeners will act as a bridge and/or buffer between them, but the main result is that Nurelle develops a bad case of hero-worship for Perrin after listening to Gaul’s tales about the Battle of Emond’s Field. Then there is the tension between the siswai’aman and the Maidens, which Perrin smells as jealousy and possessiveness, respectively, and doesn’t get at all, and none of the Aiel will explain it to him. After two days of jostling for command, Sulin and Nandera try to kill each other, or so Perrin assumes, and Rhuarc has to stop him from interfering. Sulin wins the fight, slamming Nandera’s head against the ground and knocking her out, but the next time he sees them, Sulin obeys Nandera, and Perrin cannot figure that out either. Sorilea and Amys are having a slightly different kind of showdown, which seems to end with Sorilea in charge, but with her respecting Amys considerably more than previously. On the seventh day the wolves tell Perrin that there is a large party to the west riding in the same direction as they, and Perrin recognizes the banners the wolves show him. He tells Rhuarc et al to keep on and heads west, telling them they may have friends joining them. He is soon caught up by a guard of fifty-odd, each from one part of his army, including Sulin.

“Friends,” Sulin murmured to herself, trotting at his stirrup. “Friends who appear suddenly, with no warning, and he suddenly just knows they are there.” Looking up at him, she spoke louder. “I would not like to see you trip over a pillow and fall on your nose again.”

Perrin shook his head, wondering what other cudgels he had given her while she masqueraded as a servant. Aiel were strange.

He is not surprised to come upon the Two Rivers men an hour later, but is surprised to see they have some nine women with them, and men he doesn’t recognize either. Dannil, Aram, and the women ride out to meet him, and Perrin sees that they are Aes Sedai, and include Verin and Alanna, and realizes Merana must have ignored Rand’s stricture about only sending six to Cairhien. Two of the Aes Sedai address him immediately, saying it is a surprise to meet him here, but Perrin ignores them and asks Dannil what he’s doing out here. Dannil explains that he was shanghaied by the Aes Sedai, who told him Alanna could find Rand and let him assume Perrin would be with him. Perrin frowns, wondering how Alanna could find Rand, and the two Aes Sedai introduce themselves as Bera and Kiruna, and ask why he is here when “young al’Thor” is several days north. Perrin considers, and tells them the truth, that Rand is being held prisoner by Aes Sedai from the Tower, and that he intends to rescue him. The Aes Sedai look calm, but Perrin smells their outrage and fear. They all start arguing at once, and Alanna weeps that she knew he was injured. Verin smells furious, and afraid.

Kiruna ran a dark, contemptuous gaze over Perrin’s party. “You mean to stop Aes Sedai with this, young man? Verin did not say you were a fool.”

“I have a few more than this back on the Tar Valon Road,” he said dryly.

She tells him haughtily that he may join his forces to theirs, but Perrin informs her that actually, he’s taking his Two Rivers men back with him, and the Aes Sedai are free to come along if they want. They discuss it, and agree, and Bera and Kiruna spend the trip back telling him how he shouldn’t do a thing without consulting them first, and Perrin begins to regret bringing them. The Mayeners and Cairhienin are overjoyed to see Aes Sedai joining their party, the Maidens and siswai’aman apprehensive, and the Wise Ones furious. They spend the next few days avoiding the Aes Sedai, especially Masuri, who seems determined to corner a Wise One. Alanna refuses to tell Perrin how she’s tracking Rand, Verin ignores him, and Bera and Kiruna assume they are in charge, which Nurelle and Dobraine bolster by taking their orders without hesitation. Perrin is shocked to find that the slim Aes Sedai who always hangs back is actually Merana, whom he pegs as the low wolf in the pack, smelling of resignation. Perrin wonders if he might rescue Rand from Coiren et al only to have to rescue him from Kiruna and Co. in turn. The Two Rivers men are thrilled to be reunited with Perrin; he makes them put the Manetheren banner away, but they keep out his own red wolfshead, and in response Dobraine and Nurelle break out Rand’s two banners, which thrills the Aes Sedai not at all.

On the tenth day, with the sun almost halfway to its peak, Perrin was feeling grim despite banners and Two Rivers men and Stepper under him. They should overtake the Aes Sedai wagons not long after noon, but he still did not know what to do after that. It was then that the sending came from the wolves. Come now. Many two-legs. Many, many, many! Come now!

The thing about Perrin that’s frustrating but realistic is that he is of course a natural leader, but any time he has time to start thinking about it he believes he isn’t one. So it’s always nice when, as here, circumstances don’t give him the luxury of second-guessing himself on that score. This is extra-super nice when it means he stands up to Aes Sedai; I was like “Oh my God, THANK YOU” here when he told Kiruna and Bera to step off. Even if it didn’t necessarily help all that much, at least someone did it.

And the wolves, yay! I missed the wolves. Whenever Perrin interacts with them I always love it, but this bit here has to be one of my favorite scenes with them. I remember I got a bit of a chill when I read “They have caged Shadowkiller”, and the wolves’ response. Awesome. If only all generaling could be so straightforward, eh?

Loial: Even with all my frustration with the Faile/Perrin thing, the exchange I quoted here with Perrin and Loial made me laugh. And how awesome is Loial, just quietly coming along and supporting his friend, and being about the only member of the party who isn’t giving Perrin a headache of some kind.

Which, of course, is mainly what this chapter is about, showing the tenuous and fractured nature of the forces of Light, and how much the tensions and suspicions sown throughout LOC has reduced their effectiveness. Of course, it’s not like the Lightside folks were ever all happily linking arms and singing kumbaya, metaphorically speaking, but there’s no doubt that the situation has become exponentially worse over the course of this novel. I think it can be argued that Perrin’s “being there” for Rand in Min’s viewing is as much for the fact that he manages to hold Rand’s allies together in his absence (well, sort of) as it is for the fact that he actually shows up to rescue Rand.

Chapter 55: Dumai’s Wells

What Happens
Gawyn rides by three wells in a copse, and thinks that he would have liked to kill al’Thor, but that this was sickening. He had been shocked to learn the man was in the camp, and tries to convince himself that he is not violating his promise to Egwene by not helping al’Thor. He wants to help Min, though, and is debating how to do that when he sees a horse galloping toward them, and orders the wagons to halt. The rider is one of the Younglings, fatally wounded, and he gasps out that there are thousands of Aiel surrounding them before dying. Galina comes up and demands to know what he’s doing; he tells her about the Aiel, and she calls him a fool, saying no doubt they are Sevanna’s promised escort. Gawyn shouts at her, what if they are al’Thor’s Aiel, come to rescue him? Surprisingly, Galina’s anger fades, and she nods, saying perhaps they should be cautious.

Rand pants in his chest, head jammed between his knees, holding onto the Void as he burns from head to toe with welts. He can feel Alanna close by, but has almost decided that must be a hallucination, one of many he’s been having lately; and even if she was coming, he thinks, there was nothing six Aes Sedai could do – if they didn’t decide to throw in with Galina anyway. He goes back to fumbling at the soft points while Lews Therin moans about being in the dark. Then he groans as the chest is shifted, knowing what’s coming.

Which one would it be this time? Faces spun through his head. He had marked down every woman when she took her turn at him. They were a jumble now; remembering which came where or when seemed beyond him. But he knew that Galina and Erian and Katerine had beaten him most often, the only ones to do so more than once. Those faces glowed in his mind with a feral light. How often did they want to hear him scream?

Then he realizes no one is opening the box, and in a sudden panic begins heaving at the lid, weeping, screaming for someone to let him out, but no one comes, and he goes back to feeling at the six points, now laughing softly.

Perrin, Rhuarc, Dobraine, Kiruna, and Sorilea lie hidden, watching the nightmarish scene below: a huge mass of Shaido surrounding the wagons, and balls of fire and lightning flying from both sides, killing and burning. Impressed, Kiruna remarks there must be two or three hundred women channeling down there, and that Perrin has brought them to a “boiling cauldron”. Rhuarc adds grimly that there are at least forty thousand Shaido to boot.

“The Lord Dragon is down there?” Dobraine asked, looking across Rhuarc. Perrin nodded. “And you mean to go in there and bring him out?” Perrin nodded again, and Dobraine sighed. He smelled resigned, not afraid. “We will go in, Lord Aybara, but I do not believe we will come out.” This time Rhuarc nodded.

Kiruna points out that they do not have nearly enough channelers to counter all that, and Perrin tells her to leave then; he will not let Elaida have Rand. Kiruna smiles, making Perrin’s skin crawl, and answers she will not either. They slide back down the hill to rejoin their forces, and Perrin wishes they had a better plan than to basically charge in and try to get Rand out. The units disperse to their positions, and Perrin hears Rhuarc murmur a wish that he and Amys “see the sun rise together, shade of my heart”, though he does not look at her. Perrin, on foot, joins Loial and Aram as the columns begin moving forward, and the Shaido do not appear to notice the force moving up behind them at first. The columns reach four hundred paces, and then Dobraine shouts for the lances to charge; as he does, Perrin sends to the wolves: Come.

Ground covered with brown grass, seemingly empty, suddenly gave birth to a thousand wolves, lean brown plains wolves, and some of their darker, heavier forest cousins, running low to hurl themselves into the backs of the Shaido with snapping jaws just as the first long Two Rivers shafts rained out of the sky beyond them. A second flight already arched high. New lightnings fell with the arrows, new fires bloomed. Veiled Shaido turning to fight wolves had only moments to realize they were not the only threat before a solid spear of Aiel stabbed into them alongside a hammer of Cairhienin lancers.

Snatching his axe free, Perrin hacked down a Shaido in his way and leaped over the man as he fell. They had to reach Rand; everything rested on that. Beside him Loial’s great axe rose and fell and swung, carving a path. Aram seemed to dance with his sword, laughing as he cut down everyone in his way. There was no time to think of anyone else. Perrin worked his axe methodically; he was hewing wood, not flesh; he tried not to see the blood that spurted, even when crimson sprayed his face. He had to reach Rand. He was slashing a path through brambles.

The Shaido Wise Ones begin attacking Perrin’s forces with fire and lightning as well, and then he sees Kiruna and the rest marching right through the battle, carving a path with fire, and wonders furiously what they think they are doing here instead of staying back with the Wise Ones. He hears a hollow boom from somewhere ahead, and then suddenly a clump of fighters are sliced in half by a gateway opening, with men in black coats pouring out; Perrin sees that the Shaido who attack them are bursting into flames, or their heads are exploding like melons. Perrin dismisses them to concentrate on staying alive, as he and Loial and Aram are hemmed in by Shaido, and he thinks sadly that he won’t be able to apologize to Faile for not coming back to her.

Rand is still fumbling at his shield when suddenly he realizes that one of the soft points has become hard, followed by three more. He waits, trying to keep himself from “deranged giggling”, but the last two points stay soft. Lews Therin moans that the last two will feel it and call the others back, but Rand thinks he might never get another chance, and using what Lews Therin had taught him, slides between the gaps in one of the hard knots.

Rand could not have explained what he did next, though Lews Therin had explained how; explained between drifting off into his own mad fancies, between towering rages and wailing over his lost Ilyena, between gibbering that he deserved to die and shouting that he would not let them sever him. It was as if he flexed what he had extended through the knot, flexed it as hard as he could. The knot resisted. It trembled. And then it burst. There were only five. The barrier thinned.

He attacks the other hard knots, bursting two more; then a third soft point joins the other two, and Rand works frantically on the fourth knot, bursting it. Then he tries to seize saidin, and the weakened shield bends and stretches and then rips, and the Power fills Rand; he crushes the three points with Spirit, and then channels Air to burst the chest away from him with a boom.

They will pay, Lews Therin growled. I am the Lord of the Morning.

Rand struggles to make himself move, and painfully pushes himself to hands and knees to see that two of the Aes Sedai he had stilled were unconscious, while the third is kneeling on the ground, clutching her head and screaming. Rand is briefly sorry that none of them are Galina or Erian, then sees Min lying on the ground and crawls to her, only vaguely aware that there seems to be a battle going on nearby. Min is alive, and weeps for joy to see him alive as well. Rand realizes he can feel saidin being channeled everywhere, and sees Aiel fighting Warders. Min tells him to make a gateway and get them out of here, but Rand tells her he thinks some friends are here, and he can’t go yet. She comes with him, holding him up though he tries not to lean on her, as he goes to the edge of the copse where his chest had been hidden, and sees the Tower Aes Sedai at the rear of their fighters, channeling at the Shaido. He spots Erian, and shields her and knocks her out, ignoring Lews Therin’s disappointment that he had not stilled her. He finds Katerine and does the same to her. Lews Therin snarls that he wants Galina especially, but Rand realizes he’s wasting time finding particular Aes Sedai, and staggers along behind their line, taking out Aes Sedai one by one, with none of the others able to understand what is happening, and their lessened channeling allows the Aiel to break through, and Rand stares at the chaos in amazement.

Warders and green-coated soldiers fought in clumps against Aiel, and Aes Sedai surrounded themselves with rains of fire. But there were Aiel fighting Aiel as well; men with the scarlet siswai’aman headband and Maidens with red strips tied to their arms fighting Aiel without. And Cairhienin lancers in their bell-shaped helmets and Mayeners in red breastplates were suddenly among the wagons too, striking at Aiel as well as Warders. Had he finally gone mad? He was conscious of Min, pressed against his back and trembling. She was real. What he was seeing must be real.

Rand kills a group of non-red-wearing Aiel when they threaten him, and then sees Gawyn with twenty greencoats. They stare at each other for a moment, then Gawyn tells Min he can take her out of here. Min answers that she’s staying, and tells Gawyn that Elayne loves Rand; Rand sees Gawyn’s knuckles go white, and he tells Rand flatly that one day he will see him die, before wheeling and riding off. A man in a black coat darts up and knocks half Gawyn’s men off their horses with saidin before Rand clubs him with Air. The man snarls at Rand and seems about to attack him.

In an instant, it seemed, Taim was there, blue-and-gold Dragons twined around the sleeves of his black coat, staring down at the fellow. His collar bore neither pin. “You would not strike at the Dragon Reborn, Gedwyn,” Taim said, at once soft and steely, and the hard-faced man scrambled to his feet, saluting with fist to heart.

Taim remarks that he hopes under the circumstances Rand will not hold it against him that he ignored the order about confronting Aes Sedai. He offers Healing, but Rand refuses silently. He ignores Lews Therin’s renewed rantings at the sight of Taim, muting the voice to “the buzzing of a fly”, a trick he had learned while locked in the chest, but thinks even so that if the man ever touched him with the Power he would kill him. Taim shrugs, and comments that the campsite is secure. A dome of Air covers the camp, blocking attempts to channel at them, with both the Shaido and the bulk of the other opposing force outside; inside, Rhuarc’s Aiel are guarding the Shaido captives (now gai’shain), Cairhienin and Mayeners are guarding the Warders and Youngling prisoners, and a dozen Asha’man are guarding the Aes Sedai, conscious and unconscious. Most of the Aes Sedai look sick and frightened, and some of them vomit when the sisters Rand stilled are added to the group. Then he sees there are a group of Aes Sedai not being guarded, and Alanna is among them; he notes that there are nine, not six, and glares at them with rage. Perrin, Loial, and a Tinker with a sword, all bloody and battered, join him, as well as Dobraine, Nandera, and Sulin (who he is glad to see in cadin’sor again). Perrin gasps his relief to see Rand alive, and swiftly entreats him to let the dome up so they can go back for Rhuarc and the rest of their forces still out there. Rand orders the dome to be dispersed, but Taim argues against that, pointing out the several hundred Shaido channelers out there; he suggests instead that they wait until they know the ground here and then gate out, opining that “whoever dies out there, dies for the Dragon Reborn”. This infuriates the Maidens, and Perrin pleads with Rand not to let their allies die like that, especially the Two Rivers men, offering to go and get them to retreat himself; Loial quickly offers to accompany him. Taim thinks this is fine, but Rand cuts him off sharply, thinking that he would not abandon them, but could not let it appear he cared about them either.

“Sevanna wants my head, Taim. Apparently she thought she could take it today.” The emotionless quality the Void gave to his voice was appropriate. It did seem to worry Min, though; she was stroking his back as though to calm him. “I mean to let her know her mistake. I told you to make weapons, Taim. Show me just how deadly they are. Disperse the Shaido. Break them.”

Taim walks off, and Perrin tells Rand he’s seen what the Asha’man do, and is clearly disgusted by it. Rand demands to know what else Perrin would have him do, and Perrin sighs and answers he doesn’t know, but he doesn’t have to like it. Taim forms the Asha’man up and has them raise the dome, and then gives the order: “Asha’man, kill!”

The front rank of the Shaido exploded. There was no other way to put it. Cadin’sor-clad shapes burst apart in sprays of blood and flesh. Flows of saidin reached through that thick mist, darting from figure to figure in the blink of an eye, and the next row of Shaido died, then the next, and the next, as though they were running into an enormous meat grinder. Staring at the slaughter, Rand swallowed. Perrin bent over to empty his stomach, and Rand understood fully. Another rank died. Nandera put a hand over her eyes, and Sulin turned her back. The bloody ruins of human beings began to make a wall.

The Shaido begin to break and run, and Taim has the Asha’man channel a “rolling ring of Earth and Fire”, and fountains of dirt and flame kill every Shaido in two hundred paces, until Rand finally screams for them to stop. He stares out at the carnage, relieved and sickened at the same time, and sees Rhuarc and the Wise Ones and the rest approaching, all seeming stunned. Rand tells the Asha’man flatly that they have done well, and ignores the cheers from them to turn to Alanna and the other Aes Sedai with her. Two he does not recognize introduce themselves as Bera and Kiruna, and Bera tells him they came to rescue him, though apparently he did not need it. Rand tells them that their place is with the Aes Sedai prisoners, noting for the first time that Galina was not with that group. Kiruna replies proudly that he forgets who they are.

“I forget nothing, Aes Sedai,” Rand said coldly. “I said six could come, but I count nine. I said you would be on an equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for bringing nine, you will be. They are on their knees, Aes Sedai. Kneel!”

Coldly serene faces stared back at him. He felt Asha’man readying shields of Spirit. Defiance grew on Kiruna’s face, on Bera’s, on others. Two dozen black-coated men made a ring around Rand and the Aes Sedai.

Taim appeared as close to a smile as Rand had ever seen him. “Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,” he said softly, “or you will be knelt.”

As stories do, the tale spread, across Cairhien and north and south, by merchant train and peddler and simple traveler gossiping at an inn. As stories do, the tale changed with every telling. The Aiel had turned on the Dragon Reborn and killed him, at Dumai’s Wells or elsewhere. No, the Aes Sedai had saved Rand al’Thor. It was Aes Sedai who had killed him—no, gentled him—no, carried him to Tar Valon where he languished in a dungeon beneath the White Tower. Or else where the Amyrlin Seat herself knelt to him. Unusually for stories, it was something very close to truth that was most often believed.

On a day of fire and blood, a tattered banner waved above Dumai’s Wells, bearing the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai.

On a day of fire and blood and the One Power, as prophecy had suggested, the unstained tower, broken, bent knee to the forgotten sign.

The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world was changed forever.

Dumai’s Wells is one of those WOT things that always leaves me severely divided against myself. On the one hand, the sheer awesomeness of the scene in general cannot be denied. The battle is beautifully choreographed, all the good beats struck (this is a statement which will either make sense to you or not, sorry), and for tension, drama, and page-turnability is probably one of the best endings of any currently published WOT novel. Certainly it is one of the most exciting. I also think that the visceral satisfaction so many readers (including myself) derive from this chapter is how much of a payoff it is, giving us what seems like a decisive, Gordian-knot-cutting victory after hundreds of pages of snarling and tangling and, well, not-winning. The impulse to cry “YES!” and do a little mental cabbage-patching upon reading it is more than understandable.

On the other hand, I cannot help but be a little disturbed at the vehemence with which fans so often celebrate the ultimate result of the battle – which is, of course, the infamous “kneel, or you will be knelt” fashion in which nine Aes Sedai are induced to swear fealty to Rand.

Perhaps surprisingly to many familiar with my views, it is not the possible misogynistic overtones of the act which I find most upsetting – at least not as it applies to the author. I can’t pretend I know Jordan’s mind on this, of course, but I personally never got the sense that a “men beating down women” inference was where he was going with this; in my view, it was about a shift in the balance of power, and it just so happened that the power players on the side it shifted away from were Aes Sedai – ergo, female – merely by default. This is perhaps a case of wishful whitewashing on my part, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Whatever Jordan’s intent, however, it does not excuse a large portion of the fan response, from whom I (and many others) most certainly did perceive a rather nasty vibe of “Yay, those uppity bitches got what’s coming to them!”. I found this not just disturbing but genuinely upsetting, as it was an indication to me of just how much our progress in gender equality is, in many ways, still only skin deep. Let’s just say, I got the distinct sense that deny it though they might (and there were those who didn’t even bother to deny it), on some visceral and perhaps unconscious level some fans rejoiced in seeing powerful female characters get brought down a peg or two merely because they were female, and that deeply saddens me.

I fully expect, of course, to receive n amount of vehement refutations of this in the comments; in response, I can only say that even if every “Whoo, bitches got smacked down!” response out there had motivations as pure as the driven snow, that’s not what I and others perceived, and that is the key point here. Certainly the oft-repeated use of “bitches” did not help. If you truly do not intend to imply misogynistic overtones, you may want to consider how much your choice of words may degrade the credibility of your claim.

And keep in mind, I certainly don’t claim that everyone who liked the ending of LOC is sexist, because, I remind you, I liked the ending, too. That being said, I do invite everyone to give some examination as to the reasons why you felt the way you did about this scene. (Again, an interesting thought exercise is to imagine the scene with all the genders swapped, and see how (or if) it changes your reaction.)

So there’s that. Quite aside from the gender issue, however, it’s also disturbing because I believe that in a way, to rejoice in the way LOC ended is to almost miss the point entirely. By which I mean, I don’t think Dumai’s Wells was really meant to be a victory at all.

Oh sure, it was a victory in the sense that the Good Guys won the actual fight, but given the way they won it, through what can only be described as a wholesale massacre, and the state of affairs Our Heroes are left with as a result – distrust, dissension, massive casualties, forcible coercion of allies, a political situation in shambles, and a savior left more than halfway unhinged – Dumai’s Wells is better described as a Pyrrhic victory than anything else. As Pyrrhus himself would say, “Another such victory over the [Shadow] and we are undone.” And the insupportable cost is not measured so much in the physical losses, but in the degree to which the moral high ground is lost. Our Good Guys, in the end, didn’t act much like Good Guys at all, and that will (and does) take a serious toll. Chaos, indeed.

The “kneel or be knelt” thing, specifically, is indicative of how messed-up this “victory” is. First of all, the fact that it’s Taim who says the actual line should be warning enough right there, but there is also the fact that it’s just plain – well, illegal. Okay, “illegal” is not exactly the word I’m looking for there, but I’ve never understood why the Aes Sedai consider the oath to be binding at all, because it should absolutely not be, in my mind. Maybe it’s different in Randland, but I thought it was pretty commonly understood that oaths given under duress are not true oaths, and it is therefore no crime to break such vows. If an oath is not freely given, in my opinion, it is worse than invalid - it is in fact wrong to keep such promises.

Well, upon reflection I suppose the First Oath prevents Aes Sedai getting out of even wrongfully given oaths once given, so that’s why they had to accept it, but that does not change the inherent wrongness of making them swear it in the first place. In fact, it makes it worse.

I think the later books danced around this by saying it was ta’veren twisting that induced the Aes Sedai to give their fealty to Rand, but, uh, “kneel or be knelt” is pretty unambiguously coercion, if you ask me.  And whatever your feelings about Aes Sedai or any of the players involved, the fact remains that forcing anyone to swear loyalty to you is just a shitty thing to do across the board, and (as we see) seriously hurts Rand’s credibility as a force for good. And I think it is right to do so!

This is why Dumai’s Wells kind of pulls me in opposite directions: the first blush of uncritical love of the yummy battle goodness (and it was very yummy) somewhat fades once the fridge logic sets in. However, I’m pretty sure this is exactly what Jordan intended (as far as the dubiousness of calling this a “victory” goes, anyway), so on that score I think we must say, either way: Bravo, sir. Bravo.

So. As that concludes the incendiary portion of our commentary, some finishing random notes:

How exactly did Taim know where to come, again? I’m sure this got explained somewhere (at least I hope it did) but I’m confused at the moment.

I swear, Rand must have been the sanest human being on the planet before this all started, because between the taint and the Lews Therin and the torture and the pressure and the blah blah blahinfinitestressescakes, I can only figure that he must have had an absolute warehouse-ful of sanity stored up to draw upon, to not already be a full-blown, screaming-meemie-having, padded-room-needing psychotic. The box alone would have been enough for plenty of people. But I guess that’s why they pay him the crappy bucks!

Speaking of Lews Therin (since I got flak for not bringing him up earlier, thbbt), a lot of people have said that the fact that he and Rand actually have a (somewhat) coherent dialogue going here conclusively proves to them that Lews Therin is real. But see, this is why I didn’t bring him up before, because it will no doubt exasperate a number of you that I still think there’s no qualitative difference between saying it’s actually Lews Therin Telamon in there talking to Rand, and saying that Rand is talking to an alternate personality constructed with the real Lews Therin’s (real) memories. The fact that they finally speak directly to each other proves nothing; didn’t you guys see Fight Club?

Okay, so I guess now concludes the incendiary portion of the commentary. And, uh, also concludes the commentary, except for the bit on the epilogue.

Epilogue: The Answer

What Happens
Falion receives yet another notice that Elayne and Nynaeve had somehow slipped out of the Tarasin Palace without being seen, and thinks that while she had become convinced that there was no cache of angreal in Ebou Dar whatever Moghedien thought, those two’s presence here suggested otherwise. And in any case, even if there wasn’t a cache, Falion could surely gain standing with Moghedien for capturing and delivering Elayne and Nynaeve to her.

Herid Fel is in his study when the gholam squirms under his door. Idrien faints when she comes by later and sees that he has been torn limb from limb.

The rider looks back at Ebou Dar, thinking it ripe for conquest, and considers that perhaps that fellow’s comment had been an omen, that the Return would come soon, and the Daughter of the Nine Moons with it.

Moghedien lies in her tiny tent, grinding her teeth. An absurdly beautiful woman ducks in, and tells Moghedien her name is Aran’gar, calling Moghedien by her real name. Moghedien almost panics, but then realizes the woman is channeling a ball of light, yet Moghedien can’t sense saidar being used. She asks again who the woman is, and Aran’gar tells her that in a moment she will remove Moghedien’s “pretty necklace”, for she is summoned to Shayol Ghul this night.

Moghedien licked her lips. Summoned to Shayol Ghul. That could mean eternity in the Pit of Doom, or immortality ruling the world, or anything in between. Little chance it meant being named Nae’blis, not if the Great Lord knew enough of how she had spent the past months to send someone to free her. Yet it was a summons she could not refuse. And it meant an end to the a’dam at last.

She agrees, and Aran’gar touches the collar and flinches slightly in pain, which Moghedien thinks should only happen to a man who could channel. Then it is off, and Aran’gar tells her to go.

Egwene checks “Marigan’s” tent, and finds it empty; she had felt the flash of pain which meant a man who could channel had touched the link, and felt the necklace come off. She wonders if it could possibly have been Logain, and tells Chesa she thinks Marigan ran away.

Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. “Have I not done well, Great Lord?” The Great Lord’s laughter filled Demandred’s head.

Yeah, um... actually I don’t have much to say about any of this, since it all sets up for things which will happen later and which I will therefore comment on, you know, later. Besides, I’ve already written a frickin’ novel’s worth of commentary here, so I think we’ll call it good, except to say, the Dark One agrees with me about Dumai’s Wells being a Bad Thing for the Good Guys, evidently, so nyah!

Oh, and also except to say, bye, Herid! That really sucks. Who said being a librarian is a low-risk occupation? Hopefully Min will figure out what you were blathering about sometime before it becomes relevant!

And thus ends LOC! Which may not be the longest novel in WOT by word count, but I can say has certainly felt a lot longer than any one I’ve done previously. So, whew.

Somewhat in light of that, I have An Announcement to make:

With the ending of LOC, we are kind of sort of right smack in the middle of the series. Given that, plus the extremely imminent (and, I presume, distracting) release of The Gathering Storm, plus a small amount of personal upheaval I am currently dealing with, I have decided that now would be a good time for me to take a badly-needed hiatus from the Re-read. Ergo, this is the last Re-read post that will be going up for a while.

Don’t worry, I won’t be gone long. The way I see it, this just means you guys’ll have some time to get all your new-book discussion jollies out (hopefully here on!) without any distractions, and I’ll be back with ACOS right as soon as it all begins to die down a bit. I think it’s kind of perfect timing, myself.

I don’t have an exact timeline in mind, but the hiatus will be for at least a couple of weeks, and possibly as long as a month. I’ll keep you guys posted on when the triumphal return shall take place.

Oh, and don’t think you’re getting rid of me for TGS-related fun, either! I won’t be putting up Re-read posts, but I will be participating here on with the discussion of the new book. Someone’s got to keep all you scalawags in line!

Actually, speaking of which, you may, you know, kind of want to check the site pretty soon for something else from me. Nothing too exciting, of course, but you know. In case you’re bored or something. On... oh, say, this Friday. Which is, by the way, four days before the following Tuesday. So swing by. You might like it. You know. Maybe. *whistles*

And that’s all, folks! Please stay classy in the comments, and know that I deeply appreciate all y’all’s fabulous reading and commenting on the blog, and look forward to getting back to it. Happy T Minus Eight!

1. Cadsuwallop
Leigh - I've been refreshing all day waiting for this post...and it arrives 5 minutes before I have to leave my computer! *headdesk headdesk*

Thanks for the amazing hard work you've done over these past months and ENJOY that break!
Ron Garrison
2. Man-0-Manetheran
Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. “Have I not done well, Great Lord?” The Great Lord’s laughter filled Demandred’s head.

I read this and reflected on all the head-desking, anti-Elayne, pro-Elaye, anti-Mat, pro-Mat, LGBT, bible, etc., etc., etc. of this re-read. I've also been wondering for many books now: "Where is Demandred?" All this leads to my Looney Theory of the Day: RJ is Demandred!

Can't you just see him penning that last remark, pushing back his chair and having a really good laugh? I mean, can't ya?

Side note: While Lord of Chaos might not be much thicker than other books, compare a few. The typeface is MUCH smaller than the others - much, much smaller. In the same font size, I suspect LoC is probably 50% longer than the other books. Laugh on, RJ. Laugh on. We love ya! You did good.
Kristina Blake
3. kab1
Leigh, enjoy your well deserved break! Looking forward to your post on Friday and your thoughts on GS.
Kurt Lorey
4. Shimrod
Great post, Leigh. Allows me to see a couple of things from a different perspective.

Re: Rand. All in all, a very laid back response after releasing himself. Yes, he severed the three Aes Sedai holding the shield on him, but he could have easily given over to LT's desire to sever every other Sister he saw.

How awesome is Perrin? He would have tried to help Rand alone, if it had come to that. Considering his relationship with his wife, I was surprised.

The Salidar Sisters got caught by their own pride. Bera and Kiruna simply wouldn't believe that they were dealing with a tiger instead of a little boy. Oops.

Loial. That's putting a long handle on his axe. Even the Gardeners should be impressed.

Good luck on your time off "project(s)". I look forward to your return, at your convenience.
John Massey
5. subwoofer
Sooo, more on WoT later but... 4 more days to wail away on this post, then maybe Leigh goes bye bye for awhile, Maybe we see her for TGS. If Tor goes up in a flame war we know where to look.

We needs ya Leigh. Who else would keep the hooligans in line- stares pointedly at some epic posters

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

6. Jelsel
hi there Leigh,

pretty good stuff once again :D

here's two cents...

“kneel or be knelt” is pretty unambiguously coercion, if you ask me.

totally agree but........

it's not about smacking the bitches down (at least not for me).

Our main man is totally right for putting them in the same place as the 'bad' AS.

They were both warned, and although the WT acted more rash than the little tower, both of them acted their own way instead of listnening to the man (yes that sounds a bit double but hey)

too tired to make this more coherent or add comments on other parts, i'll get back to my reread of KOT before the great storm arrives.

Cheers J.
Pete Pratt
7. PeteP
Taim was obviously directed to Dumai Wells by Demandred. The why of it is still unclear, but the Forsaken later state that Mesaana had control of the kidnapping, and Demandred did (as ally of Mesaana) despite how it turned out (imply that Demandred directed Taim to the battle.

The battle demonstrates why the Oath Rod is a silly idea, as the Aes Sedai need to get in the middle of battle to use the One Power as a weapon -- just silly.

Leigh, sorry if your personal life has impacted these last two posts, but there is no sexism in the "On your knees bit". Rand has been bothered and harassed by Aes Sedai and they have demonstrated that they are not trustworthy (the Oath sure does a good job here, as well).

It is not their gender that matters but their title and role. Change the gender of the Aes Sedai from female to male right here and the result would be the same.

Oh, on length, from Wikipedia -- this is the 2nd longest book, a few thousand words shorter than tSR. Books 4-6 are the three longest of the entire series (over 1 million words) and longer than books 7-10 combined. KoD is the 4th longest book, with tEotW coming in 5th.

Perrin and the wolves are great.

Rand breaking out is awesome.

Loial should have remained a major character instead of being mostly off-screen from after tSR until KoD.
Captain Hammer
8. Randalator

re: Aes Sedai getting what's coming to them

I think my initial response was a triple axle. Taken standing. There might even have been a bit of a squee. And I DON'T squee!

But, by the Creator's mercy, those were some particular Aes Sedai that needed a serious bringing down. Not because they were powerful women but because they were mindbogglingly stupid. And self-righteous. And partially evil. And several other not quite so nice adjectives.

re: LTT

I agree, he could be real or unreal or even surreal. Time will tell...probably.

re: Battle at Dumai's Wells

Awesomeness in a can. Also pyrrhic. Absolutely right.

In other news: Rand - badassery to the power of several million, Cover - still butt-ugly, Loial - still cute, Perrin - still in marital denial, Gawyn - still stupid (that's your Messiah in that box over there, for cryin' out loud!), Taim - still remote controlled by Demandred, Wolves - still awesome, Shaido - still annoying, but a lot mushier

Also *twitch*
9. jemron
Long winded. But still lovely. I've decided that following these re-reads actually requires more reading than just re-reading the books themselves.

And, for the record, I didn't even think about the fact that it was females kneeling to males until I read this here re-read. I just thought it was well deserved that the people (male or female) who treated Rand, their supposed savior, the way they did, deserved more than the punishment they got (ie. some being stilled, others killed, the rest being "knelt" just wasn't enough for me). They were actually dealt with quite mercifully if you ask me.
Kjell Stahl
10. kstahl
Fantastic work, Leigh. LOC always was my favourite book of the series. Your comments have been totally spot on.

Enjoy your "vacation".

11. Zeta
I have to say, I think I have to defend the "bitches got what's comin' to 'em!" faction a bit here, in regards to the oath; I'm not all the way in that camp, but I have to say, ignoring gender entirely, Aes Sedai are not good people. Even the ones we're supposed to like are some of the most dishonest characters in the series, and use the fact that they can't lie to excuse the fact that they so rarely tell the truth. They are, to the last woman, arrogant, prideful, rude, manipulative, and self-righteous. They can be interesting to read about in a book, but I wouldn't want to be in a room with such a person, much less get to know them.

They aren't bitches because they're women. They're bitches because they're very abrasive women. If the entire situation had been reversed, and, say, Verin was forcing Taim's faction to submit, the sentiment would probably be "bastards got what's comin' to 'em!" It has absolutely NOTHING to do with their gender, and everything to do with their personalities. Sometimes, it's nice to see terrible people with entirely too much power get robbed of that power, because it's always fun teaching jerks some humility.
paul Hend
12. tugthis
Unfortuate timing for a break but you have to do what you have to do. I amnot sure who had these earlier misgivings about making the defeated
kneel to thier victor, but I feel a little proprietary about this message board and would not wish the ill will of some earlier discussion
to re-emerge here. Give us a chance leigh, with luck this iteration of a discussion will not repeat the sins of the past.

That said.... War is coercion, the end result is that the winner gets to say what happens. Whether it is Ceasar with Vercigetorix, Grant with Lee,
Scipio with Hannibal, Bush with Hussein. . . When you win the war you dictate the terms. . . the "discussion" is over. Rand can be magnanmousel, or
not but the AS have been brought to heel, and although it would be legitimate to execute the ones who abducted him.. . he does not.

Hate to me maudlin about it, but the AS gave controlling Rand their best shot, lost, and this is their reward.

I too wonder how Taim knew where they were, and I look at the decision to start the Asha'men as a stroke of brilliance that in this one episode alone
proved its worth.

This is also the time to ask the question, is there anyone in WOT who is captured and actually serves their time? Evertime a character is captured they
escape. . . . just saying as a plot device it is getting old.
Jason Kuhlmann
13. Browncoat Jayson
RE: Knell or be knelt.

I guess I mentally separated the knelling in defeat, with the oaths that they swore. Maybe I shouldn't have, but that's what my mind always did for this ending. The act of kneeling was the Aes Sedai surrendering to Rand and his followers, and the swearing of oaths (slightly later) was the result of Rand's ta'veren'ness.

We really don't "see" the swearing, so we have to interpolate. So this is how I have chosen to do so.
14. MasterAlThor
To quote Ice Cube

Once agian it's on....

Leigh, we love ya. We know your views about women and men in general. We understand your feminist leanings and we still love ya. But you knew this was comming didn't ya.

I wouldn't care if the ones in power were white, black, orange, purple, etc. So it stands to reason that I wouldn't care if they were men or women.

For me, B*tches got smaked down could be men or women. Both would have deserved it. As it is it was the power shift, that Rand finally is being taken as a major power player on the level of a WT. The people in charge, while some may have had good intentions, were f'in up and abusing their power.

Most people I would say simply believed that a plot had been thwarted and were just happy to see that come about. The whole "yea the uppity women got smacked down" thing, I just did not see that. I don't want to put words in others mouths but only a sexist would and what do they matter?

I mean really, what does it matter to any of us what a sexist/racist or other ist thinks?

I love the ending of this book. It was the greatest ending of a book I have ever read. Full of great lines. "Break them", "Kneel or be knelt".....oooohhhhhh man that is the stuff there.

If anyone can think of a better ending, let me know. I don't think there is a better one out there but I am willing to listen to you thoughts.

4 days to break the post. 8 days till all is quiet.

Mad twitching has begun.
15. Alfvaen
Does Dumai's Wells count as a battle against the Shadow?

The antagonists here were Tower AS--led by a Black Ajah, it's true--and Shaido, led by Sevanna. Although they were also fighting each other at the time. But not all of the Tower AS are bad guys. I refuse to believe that all of the Shaido are Darkfriends, either, or even all bad. (Is Sevanna even technically a Darkfriend? I suspect she hasn't sworn any of those oaths.) The Mera'din could be bad or just disillusioned; the Shaido proper could be bad or just "my clan, right or wrong". (The only Shaido I can remember who left their clan to hang out with the good guys was what's-her-name, Melindhra? The DF who tried to kill Mat? Not a good record there.)

Just like Rand fighting the Seanchan later, the Shadow wins each battle because the good guys are not fighting Shadowspawn, not even fighting groups of Darkfriends and Dreadlords and Forsaken--they're fighting regular people, possibly with bad leaders, who have been led to oppose them. So yes, these victories are indeed Pyrrhic.
16. Hammerlock
Does everything have to boil down to gender politics with you Leigh?

Yes, some people might get a joy out of seeing the "uppity women" get taken down a few pegs, but then some people just hate Obama because he's black. That doesn't mean all people who disagree with him feel the same. I would opine that a large amount of people who derived satisfaction from this did so due to the whole "condenscending/egocentric frequently-wrong know-it-alls get a forceable dose of humility"--gender not entering into it. By seeking out the gender conflict as a primary motivator, you're basically just saying "I want to be pissed off, so let me find that one in 100, 1000, or 10,000 people who feels this way and write up a diatribe."

The rest of the re-read is good and picks up on nice details, but really you've taken this equine, beaten it to glue, then molded it into yet another horse and proceeded to start whacking at that.
17. J.Dauro
Word Counts anyone?

(Whew, am I glad that's done.)

New Spring_______________121,815
05 The Eye of the World______305,902
08 The Great Hunt__________267,078
09 The Dragon Reborn_______251,392
01 The Shadow Rising________393,823
03 The Fires of Heaven_______354,109
02 Lord of Chaos___________389,264
06 A Crown of Swords_______295,028
11 The Path of Daggers_______226,687
10 Winter's Heart__________238,789
07 Crossroads of Twilight_____271,632
04 Knife of Dreams_________315,163
Max Espensen
18. Andvari
It does seem like LoC has been going on for a fair bit, and although TSR is longer it feels like more happens in LoC.

I hope all goes well in your hiatus, Leigh, and I look forward to your return, even if it is to get to the part of the series where everything drags terribly. I'm sure we'll all miss the re-read, but at least we have TGS to distract us. I look forward to Friday and your new post (review?) to digest.

Re: Dumai's Wells, I don't think it was intended as misogynistic and I never saw it that way. It was simply Rand coming into dominion over the current power at the top of the tree, who happen to be female. I sometimes think though, that for all the lauding of RJ for his female-empowered universe, it is ultimately a trio of men who are going to save the world. I think it would've been a very interesting situation if the Dragon (and the Dragon Reborn) had been female as well.

As for the fanbase reaction, I can't comment on its validity, having never got heavily immersed with the web fanbase but the responses you mention are undoubtedly misogynistic and show why such a clever gender role reversal was necessary and how far we still need to come with how we perceive other people (as did the gay debate of last thread).
James Jones
19. jamesedjones
A couple of weeks?! *Sigh*

As for the post: Scan through the chapter again, and remember that Dominic and Linda are able to find pages and pages of allegories, metaphors, allusions, etc. from just the first chapter of the next book. This chapter was not about sexist smackdown.

It was about freedom, and the illusions therein.

Jack/Rand explodes out of his physical box, and Thundar/the Dragon Reborn shatters the chains the Aes Sedai have tried to bind him with. As with most things, RJ has already referenced this throughout the book. I believe LTT mentions escaping from a power only through a greater power that, in turn, you cannot escape from without yet another power.

It just seems very understandable for most folks to overlook this - it's a series overflowing with gender issues. But I feel that many folks that want to see the gender issues (both sides), are missing the deeper meaning.

Sorry about the tone. I'll be silly later.
Maiane Bakroeva
20. Isilel
I have to say that Rand is awesome here. Despite everything that happens to him and LTT's insanity, he manages to be surprisingly merciful to his enemies.

Perrin wishes they had a better plan than to basically charge in and try to get Rand out.

May I point out here that RJ really goes over the top with incompetence and idiocy of the Greens? I mean, why not have Kiruna suggest a spearhead formation with the 9 AS and their warders at the tip, breaking the Shaido with OP? That would have been something that would have given their charge at least a small chance at success and would have have prevented the jarring back and forth in AS competence between pretty impressive and complete uselessness that RJ engaged in in subsequent volumes.

Speaking of Ashaman, their sudden overpoweredness is equally jarring.
Didn't Asmodean say that it is difficult/ impossible to learn shielding a woman without a woman to practice on? So how is it that Ashaman are so great at it?
Ditto dome of Air - this is supposed to be their weakest power, yet they mesh their weaves perfectly to make an intricate dome. Etc.
And so many of them can Travel, too, which in the early books only a few had a Talent for. Etc.

Sure, AS make their students go too slowly perhaps, but even in the AoL channeling training took years.

I can justify it for a handful people closely tied to the DR and affected by his ta'verenness, but for a whole bunch of new folks this seems out of place.
21. acamp30
For me, the particular satisfaction with the the kneeling of the Aes Sedai is how completely incompetent the White Tower is. Not as individuals - we have met many that I like. But as an institution, the White Tower is nothing but fail, and responsible for multiple broken desks (I have a hard head).

The dark forces are largely responsible for this, and have done well to cripple the white tower, all the way back to New Spring. But that's part of the frustration: (How is it not a policy to re-swear the Oaths once in a while and then say you are not a Darkfriend? Gah!)

The White Tower is a broken institution. It's the car/financial/newspaper/whatever industry of Randland, and needs to be taken apart and rebuilt from scratch. That's part of why Egwene's plot is so exciting, along with the bonding of male and female channlers - it's obvious that the future of the White Tower and the channeler power structure in general is completely different. And that's awesome. And Dumai's Well was an important step along the way, and for that, it get's a giant 'Huzzah!'
Matthew Haase
22. Indagator
Quick comment re: compulsory oaths before I go back to reading the rest of your post. I wanted to get this in before it's buried by other comments.

I think you're completely wrong about the validity of forced oaths, especially in this context. In fact, even here in the real world we have examples of forced oaths that are still valid - surrender, testifying before a court, parole, etc. In fact, parole is basically what happened at Dumai Wells; the nine rebel Aes Sedai were permitted some degree of freedom is exchange for their oaths. If they refused, they would have been lumped with the Tower Aes Sedai.

More comments later, I'm certain, once I've finished reading.
Jennifer McBride
23. vegetathalas
I think you're probably preaching to the choir on "dem bitches" thing. Not much you can do to convince some people. Thanks for all your work, Leigh. I like your insights, because even though I've read the series a bunch of times, your take on it makes me see some things that weren't there before. Enjoy your break.

I never found Taim's appearance just in the nick of time fully explained. I always assumed he just had natural darkfriend deliciousness radar. Maybe an asha'man spy was hanging out with...Perrin's Two Rivers men? I don't know.

How can you hate Powerwalking Rand? I love ACOS powerwalking Rand. It's one of the few covers where he actually kind of looks badass. Instead of say, staring out into the distance with mild indigestion.
24. Darth Touma
I don't think that the "Kneel or be knelt" moment was mysoginistic so much so as seeing some VERY arrogant people get theirs.. In reality, they had been told that they could only have 6 AS in the embassy... even Perrin told them to stay behind, and yet, here they came..

To address it with a gender role switch.. to see any man waltz in as arrogantly as Kiruna did in the middle of this horrid battle.. I'd want to see him be knocked down (not just a peg, but on his face)

But in my case, I was more shocked that the AS actually did kneel to rand than anything else
25. Almaruc
Faile's perfect. Yea right. I wonder if that was really Two River Tabac he was smoking.

Also, I must be disturbed because I loved the way the AS were treated.

I also believe Rand would have given them the choice of joining the tower AS or swearing fealty, so the oath should hold.
Max Espensen
26. Andvari
Re word counts:

It's funny how the third trilogy of books (CoS, PoD and WH) despite being so much smaller seem to go on for longer, and TSR, TFoH and LoC are so much more captivating. To be fair though on my TGS prep re-read, I actually found them a lot more palatable than before, perhaps because I'd left it for a while before the last re-read. I even read all the Faile rescue chapters, which I hadn't on my last two re-reads.
Jonah Feldman
27. relogical
What people miss about the messed-up gender relations in WoT is that the Aes Sedai and other women in the story being manipulative, controlling jerks is NOT an expression of the author's feelings or our world's gender politics.

It's what could happen in a world where everything is flipped, where women have been as horrible to men as men have been to women in our history. Robert Jordan isn't a misogynist, he's just exploring gender relations by going too far in the other direction than what we're used to. Women being on their knees has no other meaning than what it would for men to do the same. People knelt before rulers. Historical fact. Honest.

The Aes Sedai are not "the evils of the female sex". They're just people who are used to getting what they want. But, yeah, Taim is a bastard.
28. Alfvaen
I always thought that Lord of Chaos was the longest, myself, because it felt the longest. TSR was awesome, one of the few books where I loved all the plot threads equally. LOC was built around frustration, and so it's frustrating to read.

When I decided to reread some of the books before the release of TGS, I decided to start with ACOS, because I remember the first five pretty well, and I was pretty sure the reread would finish LOC in time. Guess I was right. (I've still got KOD to go...I think I'll make it.)

You haven't gotten there, yet, of course, but I find it frustrating and confusing every time I reread the beginning of ACOS and realize that we're still overlapping the end of LOC, first with Sevanna's POV of Dumai's Wells, and then with Egwene's discovery of Moghedien's escape. Oh, well, it's better than the overlap of the end of WH at the beginning...and middle...of COT.
Dick Papazian
29. Papas
Ohh, I'm gonna miss the re-read while you're gone! Still, hope you enjoy it :)

I must say that I was kind of surprised when I read your comments regarding the kneeling part of the ending. I'll admit that I wasn't and haven't been overly active in all the WOT-forums, but it is a bit disturbing that some see it as About Time Some Women Got Put Down! I LOVED this ending in every possible way, even the kneeling part because I find it so frustrating that people (mostly AS) keep making their own counter-productive plans on how to control Rand instead of just joining up behind him.
Rich Bennett
30. Neuralnet
Thanks for the rereads and commentary Leigh. A great prelude to the new book.
Jennifer McBride
31. vegetathalas
Oh, and on an interesting note, while Shadow Rising may have had more words, Lord of Chaos has more pages. So that may be why you've feeling like its longer.
lin mei
32. twicemarked
About coercion used here.

War is about coercion. In this war between AS and Rand, Rand won. If he used coercion to force AS to surrender to him, that is par for course. You can look at the end of WWII. Did Japan surrender willingly, or did the Allied Forces coerced Japan to surrender by bombing Japan?

About the death of Herid Fel.

There has been a theory that from outside looking in, Herid Fel seems to be someone else. Herid Fel seems to hide inside the school, and does not see outsiders. Only the Dragon visits him and privately several times.

Thus from a Forsaken point of view, it looks quite reasonable that Herid Fel was actually Asmodean in disguise. That is why a gholam is sent to take care of him. It looks over kill, but you think Fel maybe Asmodean, the gholam is absolute necessary.
33. J.Dauro
Continuing on the word count from 17

So that means with WOT so far we have 3,878,682 words, with an estimate of 800,000 to go. SO in the neighborhood of 4,600,000 words.

For comparison HP is a total of 1,084,170.

So for you folks looking at a movie or two, HP is going to be 8 movies, so WoT would need 32-40 if we cut out just as many plot lines as they did. If we hurry them up, I might get to see half of them before I die.

(Trying very hard to ignore the elephant in the room.)
34. Alfvaen

As I recall, Perrin asks the AS why they didn't attack that way at the beginning of ACOS. They reply that the oaths keep them from attacking first.

I was also quite surprised the first time I read at how powerful the Asha'man were. They do talk about "forcing" a lot, but it's also possible that Taim (if he is a Darkfriend) had a "secret cache" of DF saidin-users, already at least partially trained, which he just happened to recruit early on.
35. hgoalie
fist time poster - been here from the start of the re-read.
On the is "LTT real or not" Here's my 2 cents: If he's not, how does Rand know how to do all of the things that LTT tells him to do (in the box - breaking the shield)? Just by luck? I don't think so.
36. Alfvaen

And the last three, if not four, HP movies had their plots butchered compared to the books. But let's say 24 hours total for the HP movies.

What I want to see is the WoT TV adaptation, like is starting with GRRM's ASOIAF right now. (Probably not time for a casting thread, is it? Last time I thought about it seriously I ended up reusing the cast of Buffy, because that's what I was watching at the time...)
37. RAFOMofo
Ever since taking her first look at this book cover, my wife has always referred to all Wheel of Time books as, "Those Fabio Books." I only buy the hardcovers now so that I can remove the dust jacket and avoid further abuse...
Nora Murphy
38. Lyubov
Leigh, I'm with you re: Aes Sedai oaths of loyalty. Personally, that is the scene in which Rand irreversibly became a character I do not like very much. It also demonstrates quite clearly, I think, the inherent weaknesses in his "trust no one" policy; namely, the way that he indiscriminately lumps in the Salidar AS with the Tower AS. Seeing as how the former group never put him in a box, I'm a bit mystified as to his logic for doing this (and the anger about how their bringing 9 sisters doesn't put them on equal footing with the Tower embassy--well, there were 13 Tower sisters, and they stuffed him in a box, so from my vantage point the Salidar sisters practically look like saints in comparison). Yes, the Salidar embassy sucked--but Rand is doing himself no favors by effectively alienating the rebel Tower.
Of course, I'm an unapologetic lover of all things Aes Sedai, so feel free to take my opinions with a healthy amount of salt.
Noneo Yourbusiness
39. Longtimefan
Just and observation on a tiny literary parallel in the book.

When Rand is being held in the basement he is told "eat or you will be fed" which could be construed as a matriachal misappropriation of "Do what I say is good for you or I will force you to do it." as much as "Kneel or be knelt" would be a patriarchal perversion of "obey my commands for your own good or you will be forced to obey."

Oddly no one seemed that happy when Rand ate.

Food is important you know. Having a litte fit of fasting is so immature when all they are doing is uh, holding you hostage and intending to secretly move you away from all your friends and followers. I mean, really!

Apparently this post will be going on for a while so I will get back with other ideas later on.

Here are some Nachos for the potluck that will be happening for the rest of this week. Maybe tomorrow I will bring a sharp cheese plate with a selection of apples and pears. It is Autumn.
Dorothy Johnston
40. CloudMist
Enjoy your vacation, Leigh.

BTW, I've always thought of the LOC cover as "Las Vegas" Elvis, er, Rand, and ACOS' cover as "Pummping Iron" Rand. TGS, of course, will be "Gone With The Wind" Rand or "I'll Never Go Hungry Again" Rand. :)
Roger Powell
41. forkroot
Speaking of Ashaman, their sudden overpoweredness is equally jarring.
Yeah - all the more reason to suspect that Demandred has been helping Taim out. Of course when I read this book originally, I (like most people) thought that Taim was Demandred, and didn't change my mind until Winter's Heart (I hadn't participated in the on-line communities yet.)

IMO, there is no other credible way to explain the sudden competence of the Asha'men nor the fact that they were able to arrive in the nick of time. This just underscores Leigh's point about the Pyrrhic victory, as Demandred obviously felt that the Black Tower's arrival as a major force served chaos.

Leigh: I have to say that I had never considered the gender aspect of the "Kneel or be knelt" scene. After reading your commentary, I don't necessarily see it your way; however, I know your point of view (including base assumptions, worldview, areas of emphasis) differs from my own. I actually get a lot more from reading your commentary and considering your arguments than I would from someone closer to my own experience. So even when I end up disagreeing, the thought process involved with formulating my internal response is stimulating and interesting.

Lastly, I think it's a great idea to take a couple of weeks off. We're all going to have our noses in TGS shortly anyway.
42. LT Telamon from Randland
Hey man, Rand IS me, just reborn, isnt that what has been stated. If all these other folks can have ancient people talking to them (ie Mat) why wouldnt I be able to talk to myself, even if it is in a semi-insane 2nd(?) person kinda way. Peace out fools.
Jennifer McBride
43. vegetathalas
@ 35

Rand started getting memories/figuring out how to do stuff long before he stared hearing Lews Therin's voice. Leigh's theory is that he's still getting the memories he was getting in the earlier books pre-Lews Therin appearance but that now he's being fed them with a tasty, crunchy Lews Therin shell. It's still Rand in the goo-a-licious center.
Doug Carrithers
44. dreyus
I'm with you Leigh with the scene in which Perrin tells the wolves "They have caged Shadowkiller" and their subsequent answer of "We come." I've re-read the book dozens of times, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I get to this scene, it STILL sends a chill down my spine. I love it.

As for the Aes Sedai kneeling and the whole male/female dominance: Until you mentioned it above, I never really took it as a male/female dominance thing. I only saw the AS as being a major power and having to submit to a much larger power (Rand)

One week to go. Sigh. This is going to be the longest 7 days of my life. I've already requested next Wednesday off, cuz I told my boss I had a doc appt. He doesn't need to know that by next Wednesday afternoon I'll be on my second go-around on the book.
Matt Callo
45. DrakeSparda
Eh, I cannot say I like the sexism implied in the end but I can see where it comes from. Mostly from my perspective it looks like the Aes Sedai are by and large sexist against men, so as a man, it would be extremely hard not to be sexist in turn. And the fact that they are all women makes it seem that way too. Its not like the Aes Sedai consist of men now too, so the term 'bitches' would constitute all of them, and not to mention it is a term usually used when angered by a group of women, which applies in this instance.

As for the fealty itself, I personally see it as the only way Rand, at this point, would even remotely consider working with any Aes Sedai for awhile, or even have any around at all.
46. MasterAlThor
Woof (pointing at subwoofer)

Just who are these epic posters? Hmmm?

I only epic post when we "got to keep the loonies on the path"

Figure that one out.
47. cristine
Thanks for the re-read Leigh. Gld you are taking a vacation for a while. Though if your gone for a month Tor will fall apart.
Is the last we see of the wolves? I don't remember Perrin talking to the wolves after this book. Though I don't remember KOD that much. Im up to Path Of Daggers. Don't think I will finish my re-read before the new book comes out. POD seems like the longest book because Matt isn't in it and nothing exciting seems to happen at least in Perrins, Egwene & Elaynes story lines.
48. tearl
Leigh, great job as usual.

However, for the sake of non-longwindedness you omitted one of the funniest lines in the series. It happens when Loial and Perrin are discussing marriage before falling off to sleep. Loial is waxing on about Erith's beauty and mentions her ears. He suddenly gets embarrassed and flustered and apologizes to Perrin and asks for him not to think he (Loial himself) is not vulgar and such. Perrin assures Loial he has no such thought, but mouth's to himself, "...EARS?"

And I'll second that "they have caged Shadowkiller," and the wolves response is AWESOME!
Brian Kaul
49. bkaul
I'm quite sure that if the genders were reversed, the mass reaction would be "Yeah! Bastards got what they had comin' to 'em!" ... the revelry in the "Kneel or be knelt" bit isn't because they're female, but because they're nasty, manipulative, power-hungry people who were screwing things up for the protagonist and needed to be put in their place. Not everything boils down to a war between the sexes.
50. cps2195
well Leigh's comments really ruined my Wotgasm. Are we really reducing the best battle (and overall top 3) scene in Wot to yet another sexism rant?

People are happy the AS knelt because they have been such a hindrance to the good guys. They are arrogant, manipulative, domineering, self absorbed etc..etc..

It just so happens that the WT is an all female organization. If it was a male group people would still feel the same way.

In regards to the "kneel or you will be knelt" comment. These women are not weak. Since the breaking I would say that the power pendulum is firmly on the side of women. Hawkwing or Gaidal Cain would stand no chance one on one with an AS.

On a side note: I hope everything is ok Leigh. You have my best wishes. I will miss the rereads but at least we'll have a shiny new WOT book to keep us occupied *resumes Wotgasm*
Jacy Clark
51. Amalisa
Kiruna looked at the men. "You do realize that there are not enough of us. Nine. Even if your Wise Ones can actually channel to any effect, we are not enough to match that." Sorilea snorted loudly, but Kiruna kept her eyes where they were.

"Then turn around and ride south," Perrin told her. "I'll not let Elaida have Rand."

"Good," Kiruna replied, smiling. "Because I will not either."

Kiruna does have a minor MoA here. Even if she does make Perrin's skin crawl. Maybe she is the archetypical Green but she is also ready to wade into the fray, throwing her fireballs and calling her lightning, to rescue the Dragon Reborn.

That said, I have no problem with the "kneel or be knelt" ending. First, for the purposes of the plot it was absolutely necessary. And the importance to the plot will always be my final criteria in matters like this. Second, Rand had told Merana (and, by extension, all of the Salidar Aes Sedai) that they could be on equal footing with the Tower embassy, limiting them to six. Instructions given in writing, no less. No chance of being able to claim they didn't understand his directive. They chose to disregard his wishes; as the Aiel say, take what you want and pay for it. Third, I really think that the male/female thing here is pretty insignificant. I think of it more as one power faction vs another power faction.

Leigh, enjoy your break! Frankly, I am in complete awe of a) your scholarship regarding this series and b) your tenacity in hanging onto your head when all about you are losing theirs.

More later…

*eyes calendar with 10/27 highlighted in dayglo orange*
Andrew Blackburn
52. ajbcool
Just for the count, I didn't think it was a gender thing with the kneeling and the oathing. But now that is on my mind, maybe it's...

Loony Theory time! This is an example where that power does start to shift genders-after all, this is supposed to take place in our 'past'-are you getting what I'm trying to say? Maybe the books will end with the power shifting over to the males, as 'payback'? I'm not behind this theory 100%, but it came to mind, so...
53. Freelancer

It is not obvious that Demandred had anything to do with Taim's arrival. I posit that Taim has been spying on Rand regularly (watching for advantages and other intel), and knew that Rand had been kidnapped. Then he posted asha'man in a grid looking for any sign of him. Once Rand broke free and channeled, the signal was given, and all the groups of asha'man gated to Dumai's Wells. No Demandred required for that.
54. wawwen
This is perhaps a case of wishful whitewashing on my part, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Honestly this was one of the few times I didn't want to skip the more feminist leaning commentary, and I found it refreshing to see you see "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

I'm all for gender equality, and yes I'm female. I do agree that if this was flipped we would all be saying "bastards got knocked down" since this was about nasty people getting their due, not about women getting smacked down.

I remember when I was first reading LOC when it was new, I was 14 and the brutality of the battle at Dumai's Wells didn't hit me the same way when I reread it recently. For me it's even underlined by Perrin vomiting and then NANDERA and SULIN looking away. The Aiel fight, and they are both warriors to their core, and even they are sickened by what is going on. That was telling for me, moreseo than Perrin charging in, asking his mind to think he was chopping through wood instead of flesh.

There was nothing glorious or sugar coated here, and when I look back and remember that RJ never went into detail with Mat vs Couladin, that it wasn't because he didn't want to write it, it wasn't that it wasn't plot important, it was that when he went into the full details of what the Asha'man could do he made it more graphic than any other battle seen to that date in WoT.

The effort and effect of freeing Rand from "non-forsaken/non-shadowspawn/light-affiliated" forces really is all the more shocking and graphic with the detail he does go into here. It really shows how fragmented the forces of the Light are at this point as well.
55. SethN
Personally, I don't believe sexism played a role in the forced kneeling of the Aes Sedai, but I do dislike it. Listen, all Aes Sedai need to be taken down a peg or six, but whatever Kiruna and Bera's original intent on heading to Cairhien, the fact of the matter is that they deliberately put themselves in danger, threw themselves into the fray, to help save Rand's life. As it turns out, he didn't much need it, but they risked their lives for him. Maybe they broke his restrictions, but I feel like despite their pride and manipulative ways, despite the fact they would have tried to control Rand's every move, forcing them to swear was ingratitude. I mean, I don't think they deserved worship or tolerance of their attitudes or even thanks, but their actions and intent to save the life of the Dragon Reborn should have negated the consequences of their transgression of Rand's rule. I can understand it on Rand's part, definitely (after being locked in a box I certainly would have reacted much worse) but I don't understand the absolute joy if the readers in watching it happen. The battle of Dumai's Wells was awesome for action, but so many things were royally screwed up by it's results.

Aw, my first post and you leave. Well, enjoy the well-deserved break, but hurry back! I love these!
Maiane Bakroeva
56. Isilel
Relogical @27:

It's what could happen in a world where everything is flipped, where women have been as horrible to men as men have been to women in our history.

Not even close. The only place where it is the case is Far Madding.
In all other parts of Randland the relations are more or less equal, and men have sole control of military power and all the advancement possibilities traditionally associated with it.
That's why I don't see emergence of super-powered Ashaman as restoration of equality - IMHO the OP power of AS already balanced military power of the men, but the ball firmly going back to man's court.

I mean, look at who is in charge of the rescue expedition among the non-channelers - Perrin, Rhuarc, Dobraine. Berelein has been persuaded to stay home.

Alfvaen, Forkroot - it would have been logical if the super-powered Ashaman had been all DFs trained by Taim earlier. That would have certainly explained how they became so skilled in less than 3 months.

But no. Of the 10 bodyguards Rand will shortly pick, only 1 has lengthy prior channeling experience. All the rest can Heal and Travel and affect weather despite and everything after _that_ short time for reals.

I mean, forget the Tower, everybody in the AoL must have been an idiot, because apparently it is _that_ easy.

And thus the inflation of OP starts, which culminates in the stupid scene of the Trolloc attack on the manor in KoD.

So unneeded, IMHO. The Ashaman could have still been a credible weapon if they just used simple fire and earth weaves instead of all this funky stuff and if only a very few of them could have been taught to Travel.
Ubiquitous Travelling cheapens the whole warfare a lot and makes it unbelievable that the weave could have ever been forgotten. Jordan should have stayed with a prior notion of it being a rare Talent.

For me the high point here is when Rand breaks out of the chest, not "Ashaman kill!" or "kneel or you will be knelt", which I find frankly repulsive.

Well, it was suggested by Taim, who has been trying to irreparably alienate Rand and the AS for some time, but IMHO Rand's treatment of the SAS was uncalled for. Yes, they were annoying and had to be taken down a peg or 2, but they did risk their lives trying to rescue him.
Compared to that, bringing 9 instead of 6 seems a feather thin pretext to put them on the same footing as the TAS who have treacherously abducted and mistreated Min and him.
Not to mention that it puts any kind of possible alliance with the SAS on ice. Yep, Taim (and the Shadow he serves) won here.

Re: Moghedien not feeling Aran'gar's channeling - why doesn't she first think of the reversed weaves? Did RJ forget that he already had various Femsaken channel undetectably around other female channelers?
57. In Like Flinn
Leigh, I am missing your rereads already. I only stumbled across it a couple of months ago and for the past few weeks, I have steadily watched and waited for each post.

I have found your insight into the series refreshing and challenging. And whether I agree (usually) or disagree (Nynaeve is very annoying), your reread has increased my understanding of the series and my enjoyment.

Thank you very much and I hope that everything goes well with your hiatus and you return soon.
58. Freelancer
PeteP@7 and others:

Leigh did not say that she saw the kneeling scene as sexist. You did not read her comments very well.
I can’t pretend I know Jordan’s mind on this, of course, but I personally never got the sense that a “men beating down women” inference was where he was going with this; in my view, it was about a shift in the balance of power, and it just so happened that the power players on the side it shifted away from were Aes Sedai – ergo, female – merely by default.

She specifically said that her emotional displeasure was with reader comments:
Whatever Jordan’s intent, however, it does not excuse a large portion of the fan response ... I found this not just disturbing but genuinely upsetting, as it was an indication to me of just how much our progress in gender equality is, in many ways, still only skin deep.

Leigh, for myself, I was glad to see Bera and Kiruna given the cold shoulder by Perrin. He's managing a veritable menagerie of followers, under great stress, and along comes the know-it-all crowd and tells him he can join them. As you so eloquently put it, thbhthbthb (or something like that. Maybe a "Phaw!" would do.) So likewise, I totally understood Rand making the SAS kneel, and it wasn't because they were women, but that they had presumed too many times in too many ways, and on this particular day he's responding in force. Good for him.

I shuddered when Rand allowed Taim to tell them to swear. I didn't believe it would happen, or that it would be worked around almost immediately, so on my first time through I was amazed that it took, and saddened, because forced allegiance is always a train wreck.
Dan Sparks
59. RedHanded
I can see how it can be construed as the good guys didn't act very much act like good guys at Dumai's Wells due to the massacre at the end, but IMO they still acted like the good guys.

Basically I look at this as an extension of self-defense. The Shaido attacked the Aes Sedai who had kidnapped/beat and damn near broke Rand's sanity (if they didn't for sure) besides the fact that the Shaido pillaged and murdered how many innocent people on their way across the wall they were very definitely attacking the rescue party who are there to try to save their friend/Dragon Reborn who is NECESSARY in order for the world to not completely fall to the shadow. Alright so we have all these people there trying to save Rand and who are under the dome that the Ashaman created while the rest of the group is outside being slaughtered by the Shaido. Is it wrong for them to defend their friends or to come to their aid? Should they have tried reason instead? I don't think that would have worked with the Shaido, not while Sevanna is at the head of it.

I would actually say that less life was lost because of what the Ashaman did than if they tried another way. SO they killed a few hundred or thousand Shaido, so what. They saved numerous lives at that moment who are fighting for the GOOD and also probably countless lives that those dead Shaido, had they remained alive, would have killed.

The point of war is to kill the enemy and that's it, otherwise we are talking about a disagreement that never comes to violence. The Shaido are the ones who brought war, how is it wrong to give them what they want? Why would that make the good guys..less good?

Different point...

I didn't cheer when the Aes Sedai swore fealty because they were women, honestly who cares about that (I'm sure some do but I don't know any), I cheered because it was just a moment of awesome. Here Rand is just got out of the box that other Aes Sedai locked him in and Aes Sedai are already trying to control him. He got pissed and said you know what, fuck that, you do what I say.

Agreed I don't think an oath given under threat of force is worth much in reality but if you are bound to that oath because you can't lie then that's definitely meaningful(though still wrong). BUT...I think the Aes Sedai had a choice, they could have left, they could have said you know what, I'm not going to deal with the Dragon Reborn, or they could have even said, hey I'm going to come at him like a grown adult who isn't an idiot, OR they could have dealt with him with honesty and treated him with respect and PROBABLY would have gotten respect in return (maybe not at that moment of course), but none of that happened. They want to meddle at the wrong time. Basically I see this as either swear fealty to me or leave me the hell alone (which who are we kidding, Aes Sedai would not do that but they could have! Rand is at a point where he really doesn't want to, nor probably can trust Aes Sedai too much at all. How can he trust them? Well obviously if they swear fealty...unless they are black ajah of course. I think it would have been interesting for at least one Aes Sedai to not swear fealty so we could see what would happen. Like what if she was like hey I'll just leave and not bother you, k? Would he have been like, fine leave, get the hell out of here..who needs you anyway! I dunno, but it'd be interesting to see.
60. Rick 1313
Just want to say that I enjoy your re-reads very much. It's obvious you are a big fan of WOT like all of us.
Hope you get the personal areas cleared up, and I look forward to hearing from you again very soon.
In the meantime, just a few more days to TGS!!!
61. Freelancer

No, not a battle against the Shadow. Galina and Katerine are Black, yes. But they are doing very much what they would be doing if they weren't in this case. Rand would still have been kidnapped.

Sevanna is not a darkfriend, just an overambitious wretch, leading an honorless society.

The only other shadow servants in this scene are Taim and, as we later learn, Dashiva. But again, acting as they would if serving only the Dragon Reborn.

No, not a battle against the shadow, and this is why the Dark One is laughing his butt off at the end.
62. Freelancer
Didn't Asmodean say that it is difficult/ impossible to learn shielding a woman without a woman to practice on? So how is it that Ashaman are so great at it?

No. Asmodean said Rand couldn't learn to block or cut flows being woven by a woman without a practice channeler to work with. Shielding is something Rand already knew quite well. Remember when Alanna bonded him without permission?
63. Lily of the Valley
I'm torn on Dumai's Wells. On one hand, Rand has a serious MoA in the scene leading up to and including breaking free. Perrin + Wolves always = win And the Wise Ones actually channeling to fight against other Aiel always struck me as pretty momentous. I mean, they shattered tradition and law to rescue him.

The "kneel or be knelt" thing, though, made me mad. If anything, I always thought this would have given Rand a serious leg up on the SAS and a chance to bind that faction closer to him. I mean, they fought against other sisters to try and bring him out. I'm sure daily beatings and being stuffed in a box helped hammer the whole "Never trust anyone ever again, especially ALL AES SEDAI" thing home, but I don't think Rand was thinking with his Reasonable cap on, and deservedly so. Instead, he relegates them to "equal" with the Elaida embassy. If anything, a *headdesk* moment that I wish could be changed, but can't. *shrug*
64. PhantomIce
gotta say for the Salidar AS & co - talk about bad timing. you know the guy has been tortured by your fellow AS he just escaped and has seen a lot of slaughter and you jabber at him, trying to force you will onto him? seriously they're lucky they got away with just swearing oaths

Like Leigh said, Rand must have had a lot of sane stored up because another person with his kind of power could have done all that carnage by himself (or herself, remember Egwene when attacked right after she was freed).

still, the kneeling to me was always about the power and evoked an image in my mind of medieval knights kneeling in front of their lord/king to swear fealty

the wolves are awesome "they have caged Shadowkiller ... we come" shivers down my back every time.
65. Freelancer

I don't think it is an indiscriminate response for Rand. He gave them guidelines for approaching and dealing with him. They ignored. He's just suffered a terribly traumatic three weeks, a horrible day, and the first thing they do is try to play Aes Sedai politics with the situation. Lumping them with the Tower embassy is completely rational. The fact is, half or more of the Salidar embassy planned on finding a way to control him, just as much as the Tower embassy. With less violence or force, certainly, but control nonetheless.
66. J.Dauro

Remember that Rand fled from the SAS because they tried to control him. That's when he said only 6. So here they show up again, with 9. Of course he's going to think thay are again trying to control him.

Although I could wish he didn't feel that way, I am surprised he didn't just still them all on the spot, TAS and SAS alike.
67. EmperorBryan
For me the end was no so satisfying because it was women in general being put down, but these SPECIFIC women being put down. They have been waiting for this guy for 3000 years and they were bumbling and stumbling along, all the while assuming they knew best how to handle the situation. To finally see them shown that they are not the only powerhouses in randland anymore was long overdue. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, he is the only one that can save the world from the Dark One. He's not just a tool created for the Aes Sedai to use to defeat him themselves. Coersion or not, they had to fall in eventually.

And Leigh I tried your little switch the gender exercise and found that I would feel the same exact way whether they were men, women, or both.
68. Hammerlock
@58 / Freelancer:
For not wanting to say something, she said an awful lot about it. While gender conflict can be an interesting take on a series that was conceived in part as an inversion of gender roles, it is quite clear that in the 30 years WoT has been developed Jordan has focused more on other core themes. Reducing every single major scene reread to women vs men (or women vs society) makes for tedious going for a reread that was touted as more of a series review than a social dynamics exploration/thesis.

Bitches/bastards usage has been covered by previous commentary; the terms are in modern vernacular typically referential to the temperment and agreeability of their targets and not really focused on the gender thereof. Of course, they can be used in their classical demeaning way, but generally speaking that isn't the implication.

Poor form to use? Probably, but verbal/typographic shorthand is difficult to moderate. Additionally, you would have to constantly review and reflect upon the deeper meaning and origins of all your vocabulary if you went down that route, which is probably more of an effort thing than most would care to do.
Maiane Bakroeva
69. Isilel
Freelancer @62:

Asmodean said Rand couldn't learn to block or cut flows being woven by a woman without a practice channeler to work with. Shielding is something Rand already knew quite well.

Nope, I have just re-read Rand's fight with Lanfear and he totally didn't know how to shield a woman on this last day of Asmodean's tutelage.
Sean Arthur
70. wsean
I totally agree on the ending here. It's totally awesome!... and then half an hour later you think about it a little more and go, "Oh. This is pretty much the culmination of that whole 'let the Lord of Chaos rule' thing."

Taim actually smiling is a huge red flag here.

Sexism in the kneeling thing... not really gonna touch that, except to say that I don't really think any of those Aes Sedai are "uppity bitches who had it coming," except for Galina, and she didn't even get caught! Well, I mean sure, they're uppity, but that's to be expected. You can see the exact same thing in action among the Ashaman. I must admit, I look forward to the Black Tower purge.

Ok, now for a question: what's up with that fight between Nandera and Sulin? I've never quite understood what's going on there, and this seems like the right time to address it. I'm sure it's something obvious that's just going over my head, but I can't figure it out.
71. Freelancer

I agree that there is no joy in seeing the Aes Sedai forced to swear to Rand. However, him doing so it not ingratitude. They came to help him, not for himself, but because they didn't want Elaida to have the toy that they wanted to play with. For the Salidar Aes Sedai, it is nothing more than a Dragon tug-o-war with the Tower. Rand sees it that way as well, and so there is no gratitude which he needs to display to them. Perrin, the Cairhienin, the Mayeners, the Two Rivers men, et al, deserve Rand's gratitude. Not the Aes Sedai.
Jennifer McBride
72. vegetathalas
Oh, and Speculative Horizons had an amusing review of the cover:

I kind of wonder what sort of discussion the publishers had regarding this cover. Perhaps it went something like this:

Publisher A: "Ok guys, any ideas for cover art for book seven of Jordan's series?
Publisher B: "Book six."
Publisher A: "Damn, you're right. Book six then. Any ideas?"
Publisher C: "Uh, I'm not sure. What about one of those things...what are they called? A trollop?"
Publisher B: "No, a trolloc. Hmm, I'm not sure whether that's a great idea..."
Publisher C: "Um...well, maybe we should base it on a pivotal event from the novel."
Publisher B: "Yeah, good idea. So...what does happen in the novel?"
Publisher A: "Nothing."
Publishers B + C: "Oh."
Publisher A: "Sod it, I'm bored now. How about some bloke in an over-sized shirt and tight trousers with a boy/girl freaking out over a harmless-looking bat?"
Publisher B: "Great idea! Now, where are the donuts?"

Full link is:
73. Dholton
@2 Man-o-Manetheren

Apropos of your Looney Theory, it brings to my mind the image of Bugs Bunny at the end of "Duck Amok", after tormenting Daffy in "animated" fashion, saying "Ain't I a stinker?"
Tony Zbaraschuk
74. tonyz
Rand may simply have been intending to intimidate them a bit. I'm not sure he's entirely thinking straight here. (And Kiruna has a possible comeback: "We're a rescue squad, not an embassy. Now that we're safe the three extras will go away, pick them.")

It's Taim that inserts the concept of fealty, and "kneel or you will be knelt". Which is a pretty good stroke for the Shadow. I don't believe that we're ever told just how Taim got hold of the location, though I think maybe visiting Caerhien and learning which direction Perrin and Rhuarc had departed in would have let him do short Travelling jumps in their wake until he found the battle.

Anyone else think of the machine guns of the Somme when the Asha'man started killing? Sure seemed that way.

Note that the beginning of the next book will give us rather a few more perspectives on the battle, including why Perrin and company were able to reach the battle without being spotted by Aiel scouts.
Joseph Armao
75. joeyesq
I have to agree with the majority here and say that the absolute glee I felt after the first time I read Dumai's Wells has no misogynistic bent whatsoever.

As I've stated here before its probably my favorite scene in any fantasy literature I've ever read (evar, evar, evar), but the idea that the end result was anything more than a group of Aes Sedai who decided it would be ok to kidnap and torture our hero (and their savior) getting absolutely PWNED, and then other Aes Sedai (who though not as guilty, were only slightly less uppity, condescending and know-it-allish to our hero) getting caught up in the bad will that the first group engendered. "Bad will" being a massive understatement, obviously. But for me personally, the gender of Rand's tormenters never really factored in.

Also, another thing I think we're overlooking is that the kneeling and swearing was prophesized, so even without Taim's threat, there's an argument that Aes Sedai were going to end up swearing regardless.
76. tearl
Regarding how Taim found the battle site, I don't find it that remarkable. You have a bunch of Asha'man travel in a fanout of several miles. The tracks of Perrin's army of 6000 would be hard to miss. It would be easy to establish they are following the Tar Valon road, so just leapfrog up the road. You don't need to LEARN a place in order to travel short distances (re the POD battles).

The real question is how Taim learned that something had happened at all. Maybe he stopped at the palace to report to Rand. Maybe he popped into Cairhien for other (perhaps nefarious) reasons and discerned Rand's absence.

Or maybe he was just told by Dem. Why would Dem do this? Just to screw up Mesaana's plans? If so, I find the Dem-Mes-Sem cabal of KOD less likely. But then maybe Mes never found out about Dem's perfidy.
Sean Arthur
77. wsean
Oh, also, am I the only one that actually kinda likes the Oregon Trail cover for Shadow Rising?
Joseph Armao
78. joeyesq
OH! And a note on the cover art of LoC in particular and all of Daryl Sweet's WoT covers in general. They're garbage. Absolute garbage, and how the man continued to get paid to paint covers for this series after the cover of EoTW, I do not know.

Fine, EoTW is kind of cool by itself, if you've never read the book, but after reading it and realizing that no one save Moiraine, sort of maybe, even remotely fits a description of a character in the book, its just frustrating to look at.

It took the man until TFoH figure out that Trollocs weren't just men in animal shaped helmets.

I would love to see if the text of the excerpts he is given to interpret visually match at all the final published versions, because there's really no excuse for the level of inaccuracy.
James Jones
79. jamesedjones
70 wsean
Ok, now for a question: what's up with that fight between Nandera and Sulin?
I've always seen it as Sulin trying to get rid of a little more toh. She's not going to be the leader anymore, so she has to step on the leader's toes (yes, I know) to instigate the fight. Once she wins the fight, she's pretty much exhasted whatever ji she might be able to reclaim, and she settles into her new role.

On the other hand, I could be completely off on this one. Anyone else have any ideas?
Brett Michie
80. bchurch
Master Al Thor @ 46,

The paper holds their folded faces to the floor, and everyday the paperboy brings more.

edit--more apropos to Rand's situation here:

The lunatic is in my head
81. MasterAlThor

I would argue that you are wrong here.

"IMHO Rand's treatment of the SAS was uncalled for. Yes, they were annoying and had to be taken down a peg or 2, but they did risk their lives trying to rescue him.
Compared to that, bringing 9 instead of 6 seems a feather thin pretext to put them on the same footing as the TAS who have treacherously abducted and mistreated Min and him."

Rand's treatment of the SAS is justified by the fact that he is not trusting of any Aes Sedai. I posit that he would have treated Egwene and Nyneave that way. Yes it wasn't the SAS who beat him, but they are at the end of the day Aes Sedai.

Does this screw things up in the long run, yeah kinda. Rand's decision is based on the fact that he trusted the SAS to bring 6 and they failed to do that even after he told them that he would not trust them if they brought more. Well what did they do? They, who thought that they knew better, brought more. So you (SAS) get to go sit in the penalty box for not following the rules.

I won't argue about making them swear fealty. I haven't quite figured out how I feel about that.
Joseph Armao
82. joeyesq
"Rand's decision is based on the fact that he trusted the SAS to bring 6 and they failed to do that even after he told them that he would not trust them if they brought more. Well what did they do? They, who thought that they knew better, brought more. So you (SAS) get to go sit in the penalty box for not following the rules." ~MasterAlThor @ 81

Yeah, this. Exactly. If the SAS had shown up with 6 Aes Sedai, Rand likely would have treated them as the rescuers they were. Instead they went against his wishes and ended up getting caught up in Rand's No-more-patience-for-Aes-Sedai-nonsense-itis.
83. trench
Great post Leigh!

I gotta chime in and say that the AS being knelt is definetly not a sexist thing, the fact that they are women is unimportant. What is important is Rand finally making the AS stop mistreating and controling him. The SAS are only sightly better then TAS, it was the SAS who tried to intimidate Rand with the Mirror of Mists. It was these women who took the hard line with him during their talks (granted it was a more honest approach then the TAS), it was the TAS aho brought 9 instead of 6. Rand had to take the AS in hand firmly and squash their manipulations of him. He is the Dragon Reborn its on AS to get in line not the other way around. Had he not taken this approach the AS would own him, especially when Cadsuane joins the mix.

Dumai's Wells changed the world, and not for the better but Rand gaining a measure of control over some of the AS is a good thing.

Also c'mon Power Walking Rand is the only decent cover in the series.
Ron Garrison
84. Man-0-Manetheran
Yeah, wsean, you are the only one that actually kinda likes that cover. ;-)

I always hated the covers because they looked nothing like the characters as I imagined them. What a pleasant surprise to find that so many, many fans also hate them.

I seriously doubt if the illustrator read anything of the books. vegetathalas' scenario seems much more likely in my mind.
Kev Hamm
85. cavynmaicl
The “kneel or be knelt” thing, specifically, is indicative of how messed-up this “victory” is. First of all, the fact that it’s Taim who says the actual line should be warning enough right there, but there is also the fact that it’s just plain – well, illegal. Okay, “illegal” is not exactly the word I’m looking for there, but I’ve never understood why the Aes Sedai consider the oath to be binding at all, because it should absolutely not be, in my mind. Maybe it’s different in Randland, but I thought it was pretty commonly understood that oaths given under duress are not true oaths, and it is therefore no crime to break such vows. If an oath is not freely given, in my opinion, it is worse than invalid - it is in fact wrong to keep such promises.
Well, upon reflection I suppose the First Oath prevents Aes Sedai getting out of even wrongfully given oaths once given, so that’s why they had to accept it, but that does not change the inherent wrongness of making them swear it in the first place. In fact, it makes it worse.

With regards to this, you do realize that when Suane, Leane & Min gave their oaths, it was just that, a choice to either give the oath, and retain a level of freedom that would be enviable by most prisoners, or give up their freedom as they had violated some law. Granted, for the AS here, the law they violated was the directive given them to bring only six sisters by the Dragon Reborn. Rand was left with no choice on this, even as he obliquely gives a choice to the sisters (you shall be on the same footing as them, and they are prisoners until they prove loyalty, so prove it now, or when you choose but be confined until then).

In reversing the roles, having a very powerful woman take away the power of a group of overbearing, obnoxious, demeaning and demanding men makes me happy as well. The way the AS treat everyone else is appalling, and the fact that most of the issues Rand has to deal with are rooted in overcoming how the AS have acted towards the rest of humanity, I find his knocking them down a peg a good lesson for them in how the real world works.

In fact, it's a good time to remember that the Wise Ones have non-channellers, and even non-dreamers/non-channelers, as they see someone's worth as a whole, not based on one or two bits of what makes them up. This fundamental difference is why they do so well around Rand, even if they can be just as frustrating as AS in some ways. The other groups of channeling women, the Kin and the Sea Folk WindFinders, have ingrained that they are not the direct leaders, and also do well in their societies. The Seanchan have take the AS problem to it's logical, if truly ridiculous, extreme, and realized that the one thing that sets them apart can be so dangerous that it must be subdued and subjugated - but again, it works for their society, as most things are subjugated there. The AS are a ruling class without a real country, much like the system that the Whitecloaks use. And we know a military that is not subject to the general populace is a dangerous, dangerous thing.

The AS have proved they are too dangerous to be let near Rand without something to keep them in check. They provided the means and Rand offered them the motivation. That they needed to be reminded that the choice was now or when they get tired of being prisoners, is of no matter. This is justice.

Of course, only a fool wishes for justice.
Rob Munnelly
86. RobMRobM
@84. As I've noted on past posts, one of my best friends was a WoT lifer who repeatedly tried to get me to read WoT since the 1990s -- and I always turned him down because I thought the covers were stupid and indicative of stupid content. He finally broke me down last August, I got immediately hooked, and now I curse the cover artist for denying me years of fun. Damn him. Rob
Ron Garrison
87. Man-0-Manetheran
I hear ya, Rob. I'm grateful that I paid no attention to the cover and chose it strictly on it's heft. I believe the cliche is "never judge a book by its cover" - and it couldn't be truer than with WOT. Big, thick, heavy books tho' are almost always worth reading!
88. alreadymadwithdumaiswells
They ignored outright the original warning to bring only six. They tried to hijack the rescue party. Failing that, they disregarded the agreed upon battle plan(when confronted about it later they even covered up their reasons for it). In the immediate aftermath they again try to hijack the rescue party. They grab Rand's attention as if they were the most important things in the world(up to debate of course). They even act as if the rescue was their idea. What else would you call them if not bitches?
And yes, kneeling and swearing is probably extreme, but they did not have to do it then and there. They could just as easily have gone and joined their sisters from the White Tower. Ta'veren twisting lead them to swear on the spot, but it did not cause the impossible to happen. They just skipped over the rationalizations, but given a little time they would still do it. After what had been done it was the only way The Dragon Reborn would let them anywhere near him. It was the exact same choice Moiraine, whom the Salidar faction idolize, made, though likely for different reasons. Moiraine was focused on preparing Rand for his role. The Aes Sedai would have to swear for no less than the future of the White Tower itself.
Dumai's wells had just shown that Rand now had the resources to wield both sides of the Power without the White Tower's help. That's language that isn't hard to understand for Aes Sedai. They saw the writing on the wall. Rand could now bypass them and head off to the final showdown at Shayol Ghul without Aes Sedai help. And if the Main Event went down without Aes Sedai participation, The White Tower was finished. No longer relevant.

As for Taim, I heard there's actually a table top Wheel of Time RPG where the players end up doing errands for Taim. The end of it had them telling Taim about the kidnapping and off he goes with the rescue party. I guess he was still a good guy when it was written.

Also, some may not think bringing 9 Aes Sedai was not excessive. I disagree. Look at it this way, the negotiations failed and now they try to restart it by bringing more firepower. I don't proclaim to know what Kiruna and Bera had in mind, but I don't believe it involved meekly asking to restart negotiations. What were they to negotiate about anyhow? Most of what the Salidar embassy was about was luring Rand out of Caemlyn and then getting into his good graces.
89. Trench
@86 87


When i recommend WOT i always throw in "these covers are the worst but please dont judge it on them"

DKS should have his pens and brushes broken.
90. thelastgoodkiss
How Taim and the Asha'man Found Rand

From an interview with RJ...

"On the Asha'man finding Rand in Lord of Chaos, he said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: "Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B." . When finding out of the disappearance of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man."
91. Seamus1602
Leigh -

When the unquestioned world power is comprised solely of women, how can one effectively criticize without bring gender issues into the discussion. IMO all the AS at Dumai's Wells got what they deserved not becuase they were 'bitches', though that term would certainly apply to a fair few of them (how else would you describe a group that includes the equivilant of a rapist, 2 leaders who lament that the rapist couldn't go farther, a woman who ingnored Rands directives and threatened him for no stated reason, and a bevy of others bent not on 'help', but 'control'. Sounds like 'bitches' to me. And those are only the Salidarians.

If it mitigates at all, I also though Rochaid as Gedwyn and all those are f**kers that get what's coming to them.

I can almost understand not liking the gender implications of 'bitches', but an anyone honestly make a case that they weren't bitches? Not in my book. Alanna's actions alone damn all 9 to that title merely becuase NONE
thought she deserved any sort of punishment.
92. Seamus1602
Covers -

I can honestly say I hate ALL the WOT covers. From the ridiculous sizing and Lan's armor on tEotW, to the 'Rand' and friends that looked so terrible on the cover
of tGH that I almost didn't want to root for
them. Perrin on tDR cover just seems off. I can never tell the differnce between Trollocs and Seanchan! The stupid wagon of tSR. I actually liked tFoH cover. LoC's
romance novel cover is just indescribable... Rand looks completely different on pretty much every book, and all, including Perrin, look about 50 on tKoD cover. I picked that book up and wondered all the way home if time travel was going to become an issue.
William Fettes
93. Wolfmage
Isilel @ 20

"May I point out here that RJ really goes over the top with incompetence and idiocy of the Greens? I mean, why not have Kiruna suggest a spearhead formation with the 9 AS and their warders at the tip, breaking the Shaido with OP? That would have been something that would have given their charge at least a small chance at success and would have have prevented the jarring back and forth in AS competence between pretty impressive and complete uselessness that RJ engaged in in subsequent volumes."

Yeah, I too would have liked to see evidence of the Greens' military prowess in the series. We have Alanna in tSR, but she does nothing above and beyond what Verin does, aside from healing, and they both deliberately take a back seat to Perrin. Then we have Mat's offhand comment about Joline in KoD, but that's pretty much it aside from martial themed quarters and fiery personalities. This would have been an ideal opportunity to show more, but I suppose it might have diminished the impact of the Ashaman and invited more scrutiny of Rand's treatment of the SAS.

I guess we can hope they are shown to better effect in the Last Battle?

"Speaking of Ashaman, their sudden overpoweredness is equally jarring."

If you accept that men are stronger in the power than women, it really isn't that jarring. Now, I don't personally love that RJ made the distribution of power like this, but that's the framework we're given. So once we know that Ashaman are stronger on average than Aes Sedai it makes sense - after all, we've seen time and time again how strength allows you to shortcut training to a ridiculous degree. If you want to think about the power of Ashaman, think about what Nynaeve could do if she didn't have a block from the beginning. Strength in the power is everything; indeed, you've acknowledged this before when criticising the alleged value of deftness that women have.

"Didn't Asmodean say that it is difficult/ impossible to learn shielding a woman without a woman to practice on? So how is it that Ashaman are so great at it?"

No, as Freelancer explained above, he was talking about linking.

"Ditto dome of Air - this is supposed to be their weakest power, yet they mesh their weaves perfectly to make an intricate dome. Etc."

Making what is effectively a solid wall section of air, and holding the weave so it butts up against other such weaves, is hardly rocket science. To my mind, it's possibly the least sophisticated or taxing use of the power in the series, so I'm not sure why you think it should be difficult for men. Just because men are weaker in using air, doesn't mean they should have trouble doing basic things like snaring things or making simple solid objects out of air. They aren't even lifting their own weight. I imagine the male weakness with air would be more apparent affecting weather over a distance. That is, I doubt many Ashamen could do what the Windfinders and Elayne can do...

"And so many of them can Travel, too, which in the early books only a few had a Talent for. Etc."

Travelling is apparently less of a talent than basic healing. The trick is the weave not so much the inherent ability. Some channellers are poorer at it than others - but mostly you just need the requisite strength. Accordingly, most Ashaman can Travel simply because they are all pretty strong by the time they have been forced through basic training. I admit it would be more consistent if we had evidence of at least one Ashaman who was strong enough but didn't have the talent to form the weave, but at least we have some Ashaman who aren't strong enough to make a gateway at all.

"Sure, AS make their students go too slowly perhaps, but even in the AoL channeling training took years."

In the AoL they would not force the students, and they would have many more weaves to learn, plus a lot more theory and education about ter'angreal, standing flows and other worlds. I don't think anything the Ashaman do during the Dumai's Well is a departure from this. Look at how well Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve do with minimal training - and only Nynaeve is the equivilent of a decently strong Ashaman.
Justin Levitt
94. TyranAmiros
I thought the "kneel or be knelt" line was more ominous than triumphant. Dumai's Wells is a serious turning point in the series--really, the main motif of Lord of Chaos about how those who were high have been humbled and those who were low have been raised.

Lord of Chaos is the first time we see saidin (the One Power more generally, perhaps) used in full-fledged combat, not merely in a duel. It's a prelude, in a way, to the upcoming battles with the Seanchan, who use Damane in battle as well as Rand vs. the Trollocs in Knife of Dreams. LoC is like the end of the Empire Strikes Back--Rand has spent his time learning about his power (I guess this makes Asmodean Yoda and I like the idea that Moiraine is Han Solo) and now is in greater command of his own strength. But it's not full command, as we see in his struggles with Lews Therin.

What's interesting to me is that this scene at Dumai's Wells is simultaneously completing the arc began in TSR (or possibly TGH) whereby the Aes Sedai are made human and beginning the arc lasting through WH (or perhaps still going) in which male and female channelers learn to work together, which really won't come into full fruition until the battle at Shadar Logoth where Asha'man and Aes Sedai link.
95. Freelancer

I am apart from my books, so unable to quote precisely, but when Rand realizes that Alanna didn't simply check his health, he immediately wraps up Verin and Alanna in Air, simultaneously shielding them both. There is no question he knows how to shield a channeler.


Actually, the bit in question with Asmodean was not about linking, but counteracting weaves of saidar that you cannot see. He knows he's done it (confrontation with Lanfear in the Stone), but without knowing how, and he wants to learn how to do it consciously.
Ilya Surdin
96. Surdin
Some of us will have to wait about 3 weeks for the book to come from Amazon, so maybe if it's possible to keep the spoileriness of the new posts at bay, at least I, will be thankful. :)
97. Wes S.
I too didn't see any inherent sexism in what happened to the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells; only, as other commenters have already argued, the first blow struck at what has become a particularly corrupt existing power structure.

And plenty of "sons of bitches" also get "what's coming to them" throughout the course of the series.

On the other hand, most of those SOBs tend to get what's coming to them quicker than some of the women who choose to follow the Shadow. Just ask Liandrin.

Or Moghedien.

Or Galina.

Or (*shiver*) Mesaana.

So (I can't believe I'm saying this) maybe Leigh has a leetle bit of a point.

Although she really ought to be adressing her complaints to the Dark One, not RJ.

Roger Powell
98. forkroot
I wouldn't be surprised if Tor set up a separate playground for general TGS discussion analogous to what we've been doing with the Prologue, Chapter 1, and Chapter 2 discussions at present.

So far, I'd say everyone has been very good about not leaking any early TGS stuff into the regular reread comments.
99. Lily of the Valley
I wasn't corrupted by the ickyness that is the WoT cover art because the first book I read was "To the Blight" . It, surprisingly, is pretty good, although now that I look back on it, Moiraine doesn't have her staff when they're fighting off the Evil Trees in the Blight...

100. peachy
Of the covers, I find TFOH and COT the best; a lot of the others are fairly dreadful, no question.

The speed with which the Asha'man develop doesn't bother me that much - we're told various times that development can be sped up considerably if you force yourself, and that the Asha'man are forced right to the limit (and not infrequently beyond.) Moreover, they're learning a fairly narrow range of uses for the Power. In many ways, their regimen is probably a lot closer to that of the damane than to that of the AS; for the most part they're not all-round Power users, but soldiers, and their training reflects that.

I'm not even going to step into the sexism briar patch, no way. It's tempting to label DW as a Pyrrhic victory, but that argument can be taken too far. In some ways, it's a good thing - it breaks the Shaido as a serious threat and it smashes through the Rand-AS logjam. It's also the first MoA for the Asha'man, and I think it's necessary to set up the second in TPOD, by giving Rand sufficient confidence to go toe-to-toe with the Seanchan and halt their advance. (He may consider the campaign on the Ilian/Altaran border a failure, but it's a pretty solid draw, and he benefits more from a draw than the Seanchan do.) The VERY BAD THINGS that come out of this narrative arc are the result of the kidnapping/beat-a-thon, NOT the battle... without the battle, things would have been worse. Let's pause for a moment and recall what Elaida planned to do with Rand, shall we?
John Fitzingo
101. Xandar01
If force coercion of an oath is bad and unenforceable, wouldn't the oath Suian gave Gareth be an invalid oath as well?
Sam Mickel
102. Samadai
I hope Tor has added more servers for the reread, because I sense another tSR # 10 coming on. Lots of twitching, WoT zombies, I know there is more fiction fiction coming( from me at least). A month,( flees screaming into the cuendillar bunker,at least for a week plus a few hours).
Jay Dauro
103. J.Dauro
A forced oath is not an oath. But an Oath spoken clearly by an AS is enforced by the First Oath on the Oath Rod.

Suian was no longer bound by the First Oath when she swore to Gareth. Still she did have an AS reasoning for how to get around it.

Yes, Rand has shielded women a couple of times, Egwene and Elayne, Verin and Alanna, for example. But in both of these cases it was under pressure, and he did it without knowing the weave (possibly pulling from LTT.) He has said in his POV that he wishes he could remember how he did it.
Barry T
104. blindillusion
LOL Character Cast

Something to ease the mood a bit.


But yes, I'd have to agree with Wolfmage@93.

The Ashaman don't really display any great feats of OP usage here:

They could blow up rocks with the Power just a few books ago. Looking at a human and seeing a rock is much like looking at a human and seeing a tree a la Perrin.

The whole Fire and Earth trick is very reminiscent of what Moiraine did in tEotW.

As for mutiple gates...not all the Ashaman opened gates. Groups of Ashman jumped out of the gates that were created.

And it's been awhile since I read KoD, but in the scene with the Trollocs, weren't the Ashaman using "old hat" techniques until Rand, by talking to himself..err, LT..showed them some truly deadly things?

On a side note...

I sill say Taim is not a DF(maybe =>). Read thelastgoodkiss@90's direct quote from Mr. Jordan describing Taim as paranoid. Mr. Jordan also said Taim pretty much ran in fear to Rand for protection. Mr. Jordan's words just don't describe a DF to me.

The only time we see DF's being afraid is when they have good reason to be. What reason does Taim have to be fearful/paranoid if he's Demy's little toy/proxy?

(He's doing an outstanding job if he is Demy's proxy!!)

As to all who like to use Taim's reference to letting th Lord of Chaos rule in KoD...well, who were his 3 Numero Uno cronies? That's right, our 3 moron Ashaman DFs who were actually Oran'gar's cronies.

Taim is just power-mad and riding Rand's coattails.

Of course he could be exactly what most everyone thinks he is. But aren't we all getting just a little tired of the nasty/evil people in this series all belonging to the DO?
Roger Powell
105. forkroot
Suian was not forced into that oath. It was offered to her as an opportunity to ease the restrictions that she (as a convicted criminal) had been placed under. She could refuse and maintain her status quo without any repercussions.

It is not 100% clear what the SAS fate would have been had they not sworn to Rand. I personally believe that Rand would have let them go, but who knows? The speculation appears to be irrelevant given the ta'veren influence going on.

I have always wondered what Verin thought as she swore. Miss "70 years of planning" and all that. Was she wondering how this all would fit with her plans?

Although she is mysterious, she does appear to be working in Rand's best interest. She certainly doesn't let the oath bother her when she feels she can go haring off to "serve him elsewhere" (in KoD I think.)
William Fettes
106. Wolfmage
peachy @ 100

"It's tempting to label DW as a Pyrrhic victory, but that argument can be taken too far. In some ways, it's a good thing - it breaks the Shaido as a serious threat and it smashes through the Rand-AS logjam. It's also the first MoA for the Asha'man, and I think it's necessary to set up the second in TPOD, by giving Rand sufficient confidence to go toe-to-toe with the Seanchan and halt their advance. (He may consider the campaign on the Ilian/Altaran border a failure, but it's a pretty solid draw, and he benefits more from a draw than the Seanchan do.) The VERY BAD THINGS that come out of this narrative arc are the result of the kidnapping/beat-a-thon, NOT the battle... without the battle, things would have been worse. Let's pause for a moment and recall what Elaida planned to do with Rand, shall we?"

Well Leigh specifically said it was a morally Pyrrhic victory, not a Pyrrhic victory in the true sense of King Pyrrhus' ruinous struggle with the Romans. So those points aren't really under dispute.


I don't personally agree with her that Dumai's Wells is the good guys acting badly. With the exception of Taim's coercion of the SAS in them swearing fealty, there isn't really anything that I find wrong with what happens. The annihilation of the Shaido is hardly cause for jubilation, but as far as one-sided massacres in wars go its hardly a great injustice. The fact is the Shaido are written as villains, and they are pretty uniformly rotten with the exception of a handful of maidens who serve Rand. Even their Wise Ones are basically evil. So I can hardly regret them being put through the sausage grinder. Also, it's not like they haven't spent all their recent past raping, killing and pillaging, and taking wetlanders gaishan.

As far as the SAS go - I agree it was probably a bit harsh, but I dispute the premise that they are treated the same as the TAS. First, immediately after the battle they are being watched not shielded by the Asha'man, unlike the TAS. Second, Taim's threat in relation to their oaths of fealty is muddied somewhat because of the prophetic element and the obvious fact that they kneel with some ta'veren effect. Thirdly, once they are given over to the Wise Ones they are not lumped in with the TAS. Their oaths are respected by the Wise Ones and Verin is even involved in the interrogation of the others. So they are granted a more true apprenticeship, compared to the TAS who must prove they are not da'tsang first before they even have a chance to swear. So the alleged equivalency of treatment doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny.
mark Proctor
107. mark-p
74. tonyz
Anyone else think of the machine guns of the Somme when the Asha'man started killing? Sure seemed that way.

I think RJ fired machine guns from helicopters in Vietnam so experiences from then must have been in his mind while is was writing.
Alice Arneson
108. Wetlandernw
What is this, two or three times in a row that I'm posting without reading all the comments? Yikes. But this is mostly just observation of the text and subsequent musing, so I don't really mind if someone already said it. I'll come back later tonight and acknowledge all that.

I can't speak for any other fans, but the "they got what's coming to them" feeling of satisfaction (admitedly not as strong in me as in some) had nothing to do with them being women. I'd have reacted the same way if it had been men, and I expect to react the same way when Taim & his DF Asha'man get theirs. (Well, okay, I DID feel that way about the ones that have been offed one way or another so far. But I'm really looking forward to Taim getting his.)

Many disturbing things... I don't think Rand quite expected what he got in making the Asha'man into weapons. I don't think it occurred to him that he might get exploding people and gore everywhere. Too late, now. I thought it was valiant of him to stand and watch what he'd created, even if it did make him want to empty his stomach. I also thought it was totally necessary; if he'd been unwilling to watch what he'd ordered, I'd have been disappointed in him. It was Taim who trained them this way, but it was Rand who gave the orders in the first place (both back at the farm and right here), so it was his responsibility. *sigh*

As you point out, it was Taim who said "kneel or you will be knelt;" it was also Taim who said "swear fealty to the Lord Dragon." I don't think Rand expected fealty when he told the SAS to kneel; he just expected a little humility (which of course is a bit much, but it could look like it for a few minutes) and the symbolic recognition of being "on equal footing" with the TAS. The way it's written, I read it as him requiring them to submit in the same way - to make themselves his "prisoners" at least long enough to acknowledge the point. The fealty was an add-on to what he was asking, and who's to say whether it was a DO-induced sowing of chaos, a ta'veren-induced fulfillment of prophecy, both, or something else entirely? (Me, I think it's a bit of both.) And note that it was only the SAS who swore fealty at this point; the TAS who were already prisoners became da'tsang under the WOs... I think I'd prefer the fealty, especially since after their treatment as da'tsang, the TAS still end up swearing fealty. (Verin's doing, mostly. Maybe she decided equal footing needed to be extended...) We don't know about that part until later, just as we don't get Verin's reflections on the feeling of being caught in the ta'veren pull until later, but the way this was written I never had a problem accepting the ta'veren answer.

Picking-apart aside, this was an incredibly well-written segment. You just can't remain unmoved in reading it, whether you think it was great or disturbing or both. Multiple-shiver-inducing word-crafting. For all the times I've rolled my eyes at one thing or another in these books, it's times like this when the mastery comes boiling over and just sweeps you along. I'd say it's among the finest writing in the genre. The way he breaks from "you will be knelt" to "As stories do..." through those last three paragraphs. **shivers** I'm not sure I breathed during the last couple of pages.
109. mcrbryant
It seems to me, not only from my personal take on this chapter, but also from the comments that the only people who see the kneeling as a gender issue are the type of people who want to see gender issues in everything - and Leigh - you are one of these people, which is why yet again in a commentary full of incisive and intelligent observations we have multiple paragraphs of irrelevance.

I have always had mixed feelings about the end of the book and never quite been able to put my finger on the discomfort, but I think Leigh catches it perfectly - the awesomeness of the battle and the rescue of our hero, in another classic Jordan crescendo of action, combined with the darkness of the way in which it is achieved - Taim giving the command to 'Kneel or be knelt' IS particularly creepy (and far more interesting than any supposed gender issues which 99% of readers hadn't thought about until this post). I had always enjoyed seeing the Aes Sedai get their comeuppance, but I think it is this particular aspect - Taim's enjoyment of it that takes the shine off.

Enjoy the break, really going to miss these re-reads (gender commentary and all ;) )
110. peachy
@106 - I don't see it as a Pyrrhic victory morally, though; as I said, the unfortunate consequences of this narrative arc are the result of what came BEFORE the battle, namely the kidnapping & abuse from one group of AS, and the attempted manipulation from the other. If not for DW, things would have been much worse - Rand would have fallen into the hands of either Sevanna or Elaida, rather than remaining free. And if he's nutso at this point, just think what captivity with either of them would have done to his sanity.
Alice Arneson
111. Wetlandernw
Ouch - not sure why I got a double post on that, but no one even needs to see that wall'o'text twice... So this is the inane babble to replace it. Happy Monday.
112. fairfax
It was a big deal that the SAS brought 9 Aes Sedai instead of the 6 Rand authorized. The 6 SAS plus the 6 Tower AS already in Cairhein would have brought the total Aes Sedai to 12. Rand knows the danger 13 Aes Sedai are to him.

The traveling weave is Spirit. Women are stronger in wind and water, men are stronger in earth and fire, both women and men are good with spirit. So traveling would be based on someones strength in the One Power not talent on doing a particular weave.
j p
113. sps49
Kneeling is one thing, and can be forced- but swearing an oath is what I thought was ta'veren influenced. You ca chooose not to, channeler or no- if Galina was/ will be tougher, she wouldn't've sworn on Thevara's binder. Oaths under duress- if it is part of a compromise between the two parties, it should count (peace treaties, parole); an oath at gunpoint is worthwhile only while the barrel is pointed at one.

I was satisfied at the AS being held prisoner and taken down a peg or two. I will be more satisfied (because of how long it's taking) when the Black Asha'man are taken care of, too. Bera and Kiruna's attitudes were annoying- am I happier to see their comeuppance because they are female?

H8 the bad romance cover. Draghkar? Proportions off? Perspective? Echh.

Stuid Galina- these are her "tame" Aiel that Gawyn stopped for. SO he takes a basic precaution, good. Won't help the Dragon Reborn because he doesn't like him- stupid.

Agree with Alfvaen @15- this is a civil war featuring Dark minions on both sides.

J. Dauro @17- thanks for the counts. I proffer the idea that tEotW and tSR don't feel long because a lot happens in them; LoC and tPoD feel long because not much actually happens. (and WH, and CoT....)

Kiruna is also stupid for not disclosing when the plan was promulgated that they can't just toss fireballs from safety. I would call her a bitch for that. Did Perrin know this from the Two Rivers fighting and forgot?

Twicemarked @32- good thinking there! but we will never learn for sure.

So did Demandred, I mean Taim, have a Finding charm on Rand's little fat man angreal? Two explanations in one!

Traveling- reminds me of Larry Niven's rules of how worlds are affected by teleportation technology. He has conditions like booths or no booths, any destination and/ or any origination site, etc. If there is no OP way to ward against it (beyond Sammy's alarm wards), a strong channeler could lob explosives into a stronghold from anywhere.

The ending of this book is also what cemented Taimandred in my mind, before I ever found rasfrj (wotever) or the WoTFAQ. Even the dual orders in WH were just extra emphasis, I thought, until the Cleansing. I still suspect retcon; I will have to just go with it, I suppose :P
114. somewheresouth
Hey Leigh! Will miss you lots. Especially because I'm not getting my copy of tGS until the 9th-13th of November. Damn freight from the UK. The anticipation is painful!

On the whole "kneel or you will be knelt" thing - and I'm not going to abuse any previously stated giant pink warhorses - when you wrote that we should picture the situation gender-reversed, I think you've over excited my poor brain.

I have this delicious image of Rand standing over Taim going "heh, kneel or you will be knelt".

Not that that's gender reversed. I'd just love to see Taim with a spoon and a bowl of humble pavlova.

And btw, "bitch" is a very trendy word for ""Gen-Y"" girls to call men.

Hence, I think Taim is a bitch!

(he is pretty frickin' snarky, plus he's got a whole posse of nasty-as popular kids hanging out in the BT and holding secret-club meetings)!
115. CYarger
Hey Leigh!

First off: Thank you so much for doing these rereads! We love them, and love that it's you who is doing them!

Second: My thoughts on the Wells and "kneel or be knelt" is that it's Cummupence for Bera and Kiruna who, if they were men would still piss me off for taking command of a situation they had no right in doing (Caemlym). And for not heeding the warning Rand had written (Never piss off the person who you're trying to curry favor with). Looking at it in this light, without gender, it wouldn't matter to me who was male or who was female, what matters is this: Bera and Kiruna played with fire, the other Aes Sedai followed along and then they all got proverbally burned.
116. Freelancer

No. Siuan, Leanne, and Min had a choice. Siuan took the Oath because it left them the opportunity to flee. They were not coerced in any way.
Andrew Lovsness
117. drewlovs
My respons to Leigh's call for why I felt as I did when I finished Lord of Chaos was simple... mainly because I was naive in regards to WoT.

First, since Leigh is obviously talking about the Aei Sedai kneeling, I will refrain from the actual battle, which was by far the part that affected me most. From the killing before Saidin was channeled, to after the "roling death" ended, it was sickeningly facinating. Keeping my views as "simple" as possible, I am a proponent for life, from embryo to capital murder sentences, so this chapter affected me deeply. Joy mixed with revulsion... that was my reaction.

But on the bowing and vowing; I thought, due to the prophecy being quoted, that the Aei sedai, at least the Salidar crew, was now tied to Rand's movement. Naive? You bet. But I was sick of the Aei Sedai not uniting behind him and helping him, and for once, I wanted to see Rand's load get a little lighter. He deserved it. Crown of Swords, obviously, was a disappointment.

But I was bothered by the "bitches" comments as much as Leigh was online. It seemed to me that there will always be a minority on both sides of the gender issue that cannot ever see beyond gender issues. Perhaps it was due to having female managers in my younger days, or a deep respect for my working mother and grandmother, I have never had an issue with female Aei Sedai being in charge. In fact, it made sense; male channelers went nuts and made a mess of things, you know? And as we all know, if you have the power to look at someone and make them dead with a thought, you tended to be on the top in politics and management.

So... MY perspective was one of hope; the authors of gender hate confuse and ultimately anger me. I will never understand why what sexual organ you have between your legs means so much to some people. Put simply, those authors of hate posts towards women would have a completely different attitude if those Aei Sedai had penises; I don't understand this AT ALL. Hate towards any group as a general rule has never made any sense to me.

I thought Rand was a little tough with the Salidar crew, but if it meant getting Rand some allies in the end, woo hoo! Knowing now it meant no such thing, I am left with a sadness that Taim's "kneel and swear" comments made Rand's job harder, not easier.

Though... Verin DOES change a lot of this soon, doesn't she? I cannot WAIT to hear Leigh's opinions on that...
Jay Dauro
118. J.Dauro

Thanks, you do deserve a break. Have a nice vacation, but make sure Pablo has your emergency number. If we start to break the site, he may need you to calm us down.

On the end of LoC
"I forget nothing, Aes Sedai," Rand said coldly. 'I said six could come, but I count nine. I said you would be on an equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for bringing nine, you will be. They are on their knees, Aes Sedai. Kneel!"

Coldly serene faces stared back at him. He felt Asha’man readying shields of Spirit. Defiance grew on Kiruna’s face, on Bera’s, on others. Two dozen black-coated men made a ring around Rand and the Aes Sedai.

Taim appeared as close to a smile as Rand had ever seen him. "Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon," he said softly, "or you will be knelt."

I always read this as for bringing 9 Rand was going to put the SAS with the TAS. When they swear fealty, he backs down a bit. So they become apprentices, while the TAS become da'tsang. Maybe I am over-reading.
Kerwin Miller
119. tamyrlink
i havent read any previous comments so bear with me if im repeating a view point or info or whatever

i thought the ending was great. but i hated hated hated the fact that the aes sedai had to swear. i mean i understand why it happened and had to happen but still ya kno? i like my strong female characters i say! and even with their flaws, the AS remain my favorite faction in the series and i dont wanna see them brought low. plus it was just wrong cuz they did come to help after all, and for taim, taim of all ppl, who sisters died trying to capture(iirc), and died during his escape, to tell them to kneel or be knelt...if i was there i woulda been destroyed cuz i woulda tried to kill taim.
....but "Kneel...or you will be knelt" is a bad as (kinda long) one liner. gotta admit that.
moving on...

now say what you may about AS and their mistakes and blah blah, but you gotta give em respect. cuz they coulda stayed out of the battle back with the wise ones. there were sisters in danger so they could have used the power as a weapon despite what kiruna tells perrin in ACOS, but they marched right in the middle of the battle. merana with no warder and rafela and verin and alanna with only one! cmon! when i read that part i was like oh hell yea thats what im talkin about!!

one thing that got me was that nobody major seemed to die from friendly fire (for lack of a better term)but i forget (or didnt know then) that good guys didnt just die in this series lol.

perrins observations about sorilea leading being tied to her strength in channeling is something ive noticed before. rand thinks that "bair or amys or somebody" should come by the house and feel the AS channeling inside. bair cant channel but because she is one the highest respected wise ones rand just assumes she can. and just because sorilea leads the wise ones perrin assumes she's a strong channeller and that all the others are as strong as she is (based on that flame he saw). just kinda shows that even ppl who cant channel rank strength in the power highly.

idk bout some of yall, but i thought the whole "disperse the shaido. break them." meat grinder bit was totally cool.

and as an aside why have we only seen damane use horizontal lightning?

i understood the amys/sorilea showdown and i liked the results that now has amys as like second of all wise ones, but i totally didnt/dont get the sulin nandera showdown.

during his talk with perrin, loial's subject change was real smooth lol. real smooth.

a battle going on, rand rises out of the box, righteously angry/crazy - They will pay, Lews Therin growled. I am the Lord of the Morning.
this line was soooo cool. almost as cool as the similar scene in PoD.

whoo boy thats a lot of stuff.
Rob Trotter
120. shadar
"The battle demonstrates why the Oath Rod is a silly idea, as the Aes Sedai need to get in the middle of battle to use the One Power as a weapon -- just silly."

Actually - the battle demonstrates the value of that Oath. If they were fighting an army of trollocs - it wouldn't matter. The fact is they were fighting a bunch of misguided soldiers following a lunatic (Gawyn/Sevanna take your pick). They *shouldn't* have been killing them!!

Now that ashaman/damane are on the scene there are issues with that oath -- but of the three it is probably worth keeping.
Kerwin Miller
121. tamyrlink
idk if anybody posted this but i read on dominics and lindas blog that RJ had said something like: he envisioned or it just happened this way, that taim came to cairhien to talk to rand and discovered everyone was gone or something like that and basically travelled in jumps along the tar valon road until he found rand, then went to the black tower and came back with asha'man. (i forget how he knew to go along the tar valon road and how he knew rand was a prisoner)

(and is asha'man plural asha'men? or does it just stay asha'man?)
TW Grace
122. TWGrace
Oh sure, it was a victory in the sense that the Good Guys won the actual fight, but given the way they won it, through what can only be described as a wholesale massacre,

Massacres arent bad. They are good (well if you are winning them that is). To paraphrase a saying or two I was taught ages and ages ago..."If you are in a fair fight, you screwed up somewhere" and "Some of you think that war is all glamor and glory, but let me tell you it is Hell!"

Our Good Guys, in the end, didn’t act much like Good Guys at all, and that will (and does) take a serious toll. Chaos, indeed.

What if Rand turns out to be the Lord of Chaos (the 'not good' aspect of the Dragon) in the end...

That would surely cause a stir.
123. alreadymadwithtwistedoath
shadar @120, PeteP @7
Of course it's silly. Because they did not need to endanger themselves like that. They just wanted to get to Rand ahead of everybody else.

We know the Oath. Never to use the Power as a weapon except in the last defense of your life, a Warder or a fellow Aes Sedai. Guess who the Shaido had surrounded and were gonna kill in order to get to Rand?
124. peachy
@ 122 - Yeah, I don't see a problem with a 'massacre' in the last chapter, in the sense of a brutally one-sided result in battle with heavy casualties for the loser. (A 'massacre' in the sense of killing a bunch of prisoners... THAT would have been troubling, but it didn't happen.) And I just don't see the 'good guys not acting like good guys' angle at DW, either - at least during the course of the battle itself, there's some dicey stuff afterward. It's a nasty, horrific episode, no question, but the 'good guys' seemed to have resolved a very difficult situation about as well as one could have expected.
j p
125. sps49
alreadymad, good point, but those Aes Sedai should have been their proper counterbattery targets. The Shaido Aiel were incidental.

If only the Aes Sedai and Younglings had been there, what would the SAS have done? Can Aes Sedai channel at each other?
William Fettes
126. Wolfmage
peachy @ 124

Agreed. Massacre is an emotive word but offers little of substance to adjudicate whether it was a just war, jus ad bellum, or whether the war's conduct was just, jus in bello. According to those accepted standards, the situation is not that complicated to judge. The Shaido were not acting in self-defence; they were aggressors. They were also uniformed enemy regulars, and had not surrendered or quit the field. Therefore, they were valid military targets at all relevant times. Moreover, the Ashaman's attack did not endanger any non-military targets and never went beyond military necessity.

So, I really don't see any issue apart from the general 'Oh, the humanity' and 'war is hell' aspects.
127. Tektonica
Hey leigh...thanks so much for all the reread efforts! i love your points of view, especially the ones that get everybody all riled up! Fun! You have a great sense of humor. Have a good break....breathe....we'll all have fits, but you'll be better!

I think the "Aes Sedai kneeling before the ancient sign" is part of the prophecies, no? Doesn't really bother me too much because I do think Rand's Ta'verness caused the acquiesence. Anyway, the SAS were no angels here. They brought 9 when he said 6 and were just as arrogant and pushy as all AS. Now they were certainly not in the TAS camp of evil deeds, but their timing in confronting the Dragon Reborn was really bad.

The Ashaman's performance here was pretty over the top ugly. Nice they came to the rescue for the DR, but the blood and gore. Ick. I'm glad it made Rand sick, but like it was said by someone above, he did order them to be made into weapons and it was an awesome power display for the AS.

All in all, a great ending to the book. Loved Rand breaking out of the box. Perrin was awesome. (Faile drives me bonkers.) Yeah, Sulin back in Cad'n sor. Gawyn, yech, what a dunce. Shaido, boo. Loial always huggable. Min loyal and supportive and awesome. And poor Rand. I'm amazed he's not completely nuts after the beatings and the box with his only playmate in there, LTT, yammering at him. Whew. I think he was fairly restrained in his responses to the SAS, given the timing.

But what a mess of an army Rand has created. Such tenuous loyalties. Everyone looking at everyone else like cats in a box.

As for the covers. I put the books in plain brown wrappers to carry them around. Otherwise, it looks like I've stolen my son's "young adult" books.
So awful. Why not elegant plain colored covers with great type like GRRM?
I'm just suggesting......

We'll miss you leigh, but will look for you in the new book postings.....
128. alreadymadwithASgames
Sure they can. They can shield or incapacitate. Just not kill. All from a distance. Them rushing in was just so they can physically get to Rand before everybody. Who knows what they had in mind? They probably wanted to shield him and enforce their authority as Aes Sedai over a rebellious Warder. Which they knew Rand to be even if an unwilling one.
129. Freelancer
But aren't we all getting just a little tired of the nasty/evil people in this series all belonging to the DO?

Umm, Elaida, Sevanna, Niall, Asunawa, Therava, most Cairhienin nobles, most Tairen nobles...

Not darkfriends, but pretty nasty.
130. Freelancer

In truth, the Salidar embassy did not come to rescue Rand for Rand's sake. They came to get him away from Elaida. When Perrin says "I will not let Elaida have him", he means one thing, when Kiruna says "Good, neither will I", she means another. Perrin is after Rand's interests. Kiruna is after the SAS's interests. When she stupidly makes that plain to Rand by trying to establish herself as the after-action scene leader, Rand has had enough.

It's their own fault Rand treats them as he does. They have disrespected and disobeyed him, ignored his position and authority while pretending to acknowledge it. They earned a timeout, and boy, did they get one.

Umm, should I not have said boy?
Roger Powell
131. forkroot
Umm, Elaida, Sevanna, Niall, Asunawa, Therava, most Cairhienin nobles, most Tairen nobles...

Not darkfriends, but pretty nasty.
You forgot to mention Padain Fain. He is certainly not the Dark One's hound any more.
Jacy Clark
132. Amalisa

We know the Oath. Never to use the Power as a weapon except in the last defense of your life, a Warder or a fellow Aes Sedai. Guess who the Shaido had surrounded and were gonna kill in order to get to Rand?

They didn't have to be going to the defense of the TAS. Just by going into the battle, they put themselves in danger and removed the restriction from the Oath.

As for the battle itself... When I was a little girl, I saw "The Green Berets" in the theater. Way more blood and gore than a seven year old should see on a huge ('cause back then, they really were!) screen. I still shudder to remember the battle for the camp, the spiked man trap... I had the same visceral reaction to reading this chapter. The "rolling ring of death" - ye gods! Heads exploding like melons, body parts flying everywhere - actually creating a wall of mutilated human flesh?? Jeez louise! If they ever do find a way to commit these books to film, that's one scene I'll watch with hands over my eyes, peering through the cracks!

What was more heartrending, however, was Rand's reaction. There's Taim, smiling and satisfied. The Asha'man doing what they've been trained to do (and how did they feel about it, I wonder). Perrin tossing his cookies. Min hiding behind Rand's back. The Aiel turning away. And Rand - after all he's gone through! - forced to watch, praise, and feel some of his own humanity slipping away.

Yeah, Leigh is right. It's a good thing he was very sane to begin with because these last few weeks/months have been slicing away at what sanity he has, like way a lot!

The wolves are awesome! I love wolves anyway but the "Shadowkiller" thing gave me chills. I had an immediate mental image of a pack, bounding through moonlit snow in pursuit of a mule deer. They receive the "sending" and, in a spray of snow, change direction and begin running toward Perrin and, ultimately, Rand.

Gawyn - I have a hard time being tough on the guy. He believes Rand killed his mother! Sure, Egwene has told him otherwise but she hasn't been able to prove it. We know it isn't true but we can't prove it to him, either! How else is he supposed to react?? Good grief! Rand understands! Cut the man some slack! He's smart enough to suspect that Galina is hoping he'll meet his end on a scouting mission. He's in a cleft stick, and he knows it.

Loial... love, love and love him! Ax with a long handle, indeed!

Perrin... also three loves, and one to grow on! Such a strong moral compass - even if it puts him at odds with his childhood friend or the all-powerful Aes Sedai or his wife...

Oh, and did someone say "pot luck"?? The local H.E.B. prepares these most scrumptious honey-mesquite barbeque chickens. I mean, slap-your-mama good!
133. Other Alias
Hmm. I know I am lost at the tail end of the comments, but I have to say, this is one of my favorite bits of the series. The wolves howling about Shadowkiller, Rand breaking out and wreaking havoc among the tower AS, the Salidar AS swearing fealty - these are chills down the spine for me.

I know it was a crappy victory, but I think it is a reflection of the fact that sometimes there just aren't any good endings to some situations. Every choice is bad, every outcome is bad, you just have to choose which bad you want.

As to the gender politics there, I don't think it was gender as much as it was punks getting served. Nothing makes me happier than seeing smug, self-righteous, blindly ignorant punks get brutally slapped into reality.

I crow out loud every time Honor Harrington lays the smack down on the ignorant, smug, idiots that kept hosing everything because of their incompetence in David Weber's series. I crowed out loud when Bera and Kiruna got what was coming to them, personally (irrespective of gender), for their high handedness and disdain for everyone around them.

And Leigh, thank you so much for undertaking this project. I am getting pretty excited about the completion of the series and you have definitely contributed to that by taking me back through the series like this. I hope that your hiatus does what you need it to. I am looking forward to the reread resuming later on. Thanks!
134. Freelancer
Ok, don't anybody have a heartattack, but I'm about to agree with Wolfmage. I know, I know...

When an armed, organized group decides to engage another armed, organized group in direct violent conflict for the purpose of gaining a known objective about which both sides disagree in an unreconcilable manner, there is only one right way to proceed, if you have the means. Terminate your enemy's ability to continue prosecution of their side of the conflict as quickly and completely as possible. That means kill people and break things.

What the asha'man did to the Shaido certainly mitigated the total loss of life which would have been unavoidable if "conventional" fighting methods had been continued to a conclusion. Viewed in macro, the event is much less disturbing that when viewed up close, with bodies exploding. Dead is dead, a spear through the heart leaves a better looking corpse. So what?

Once it became obvious that they had not even a remote chance of victory, or even survival, the Shaido did what sensible people do, get off the track before the train hits you. Lives were saved due to the severe and extraordinary violence of the asha'man methods.
135. Freelancer

Didn't forget him. He got how he is because of a path begun in service to the shadow, so I couldn't include him.
Bryan Cogswell
136. shmoo
Lets combine two lines of discussion in this thread...

1) Switching the genders with the "or be knelt" with...

2) the cover art.

Can you imagine what the cover would look like if the gender roles had been reversed? It might take the shape of what a cheap romance novel would look like ... oh wait. Damn....
stefan warsink
137. grubber
yeah the covers. I think they're all a load of choss. (see what I did there?)
choss incidentally, is loose, worthless rock on a cliff.

and gender issues: GAAAAAHHH! that's all I will say on this and future gender isssues.
William Fettes
138. Wolfmage
Freelancer @ 134
"Once it became obvious that they had not even a remote chance of victory, or even survival, the Shaido did what sensible people do, get off the track before the train hits you. Lives were saved due to the severe and extraordinary violence of the asha'man methods."

Exactly. Moreover, they could have gone much further and Travelled behind them, cutting off their retreat with walls of air, and then destroyed them utterly. But they didn't - they maintained the one basic front and allowed the retreat.
John Massey
139. subwoofer
'K folks, lock up your liquor and hide the women- got stuff to say.

Perrin to Bera and Kiruna-grrrr. And not to pick nits, but Perrin wields an axe, c'mon now, sappy drama...

Rand as he burst from the box @4:11 here. Can of awesome followed by can of whoop ass.

The big battle-ahhhh! It was good- Asha'man get it on!

I have mentioned this in previous posts, but to me, the wolves get it. They don't bother with politics, religion, don't care about who is in charge, don't care about gender, AS v AS, WO standing. They see Rand, Shadowkiller caged and have one goal- setting him free. No matter who and no matter the cost. Scorched Earth here folks. I am surprised at any survivors.

As to the rest- I have a wolf-like view and I only read this series for pleasure. I could care if a group of Oompa Loompas were the ruling class and there was a divide in the clan and a battle ensued. This was war and the end result- to me- fits. I did not see women kneeling, I saw people really high on themselves being put in their place. It could have been a team of midgets, of course, in that case, kneeling would have been pointless. Same for all the other reading between the lines- meh.

140. Rand al'Todd
The forced oath on the Tower Aes Sedai (TAS) was the least they deserved, and, in the real world, the best they could expect. It was fairly routine, at least in Europe, for conquered foes to be forced to swear an oath to the victor. (With death as the only option and as the expected punishment for failing to keep that oath.)

The SAS, as a couple of commenters stated, were somewhat victims of their bad timing, but they also had abused his trust. It might have come out a little differently if they could have truthfully argued that the three extra sisters were not part of the embassy and had been recruited en-route to the rescue, but that was just not the truth.

They immediately and blatantly jumped in and were in the process of trying to manipulate/take control of him (again). It was straw time (understandably, since the camel's back was already broken). They walked like a duck and quacked like a duck just when it was time for the Peking Duck to go into the oven, so they got plucked and burned.

Overall their intentions varied from the TAS only in method - not in intent: both groups wanted to control the DR and manage him through TG.

As to whether this was a victory for the Light Side or the Dark Side, the DO may think that the Chaos was good for him, but he is wrong. This event may interfere with Rand's trust of both TAS and SAS but is that a bad thing in the long run?

Both groups had the underlying assumption that HE WAS INCOMPETENT AND HAD FOLLOW THEIR GUIDANCE.
Note that Elaida intended to break him to obey, then put him "on ice" until needed. Egwene is focusing more and more on re-establishing the Tower and less and less on supporting Rand.

But what is either group's PLAN of how to win TG?
They both want to control and guide him but neither side has ever voiced an actual PLAN or idea on how he can be used to win. Having either the TAS or SAS as manipulative leaders OR as trusted advisors would lead to total failure, because neither group has a clue what to do.

Rand does not know just how lost both the TAS and the SAS are in terms of being able to give him advice/guidance, even if they would co-operate about it.

Only Cadsuane seems to have any real goal/plan and she is being quiet about the details (but recall my Looney Theory about the "toothless wilder" Norla being from the AOL and having a plan on how to reseal the bore). And Caddy is acting as an independent, separate from both the TAS and SAS.
Kristina Blake
141. kab1
Ok- haven't read all of the posts yet, so this may have been covered already.

Ironically enough, we were going through the cover art the other day, and since it's come up in this post, I thought I'd ask- Who is even on the cover of KoD? Who's at the desk? Perrin? Why does he have red hair? Is that Rand over to the left? Why do they all look so old???
Jay Dauro
142. J.Dauro
Amalisa @132

That's just it. They did not have to go into the battle. They could have killed Shaido from where they were (to defend the TAS). They could have attempted to shield/bind the TAS from where they were. They cannot try to harm the TAS with the power, unless they can convince themselves the TAS are BA.

They wanted to get to Rand, because they wanted strings on him. Either direct control (these are the two who wanted Alanna to bring him to heel) or obligation. In no case did they want Rand to be free to go on without their control.
143. tailspinner
Hi Leigh,
well, I will miss these re-reads but I hope you come back from your break refreshed and I hope all the personal stuff gets resolved for you.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts on TGS.
144. Rand al'Todd
sps49 @113:

"Stuid Galina- these are her "tame" Aiel that Gawyn stopped for. SO he takes a basic precaution, good. Won't help the Dragon Reborn because he doesn't like him- stupid."

But this is another item that Leigh glossed over in her hurry to get to gender comments:

Remember that Galina was under orders from Elaida to get Gawyn and the Younglings KILLED here. The Shaido were supposed to ambush him and his troops. The fact that he did not blindly trust her judgment saved his life, and at least the few Younglings that escaped.
John Massey
145. subwoofer
And... As Leigh the Great pointed out-eight more days until TGS drops!!! Yeah!

Pity about Gawyn being a half decent soldier, somebody coulda piffed him here and with the exception of Eggy, no one would have really missed him.

Jay Dauro
146. J.Dauro
Sub @145

Naw, Elayne would have. And maybe Galad and Morgase.
John Massey
147. subwoofer
@146- minor, pshaw. They all have bigger fish to fry. Maybe shed a tear, a sniffle here and there, but then they motor on... Silent Bob coulda whacked him on the head with a sock full of quarters...

Barry T
149. blindillusion

Well played I must admit.

Perhaps I should have worded that post a little better but I was taking a break from an OP order I really don't want to write and was in a bit of a rush.

It just seems to be that many people say Taim has to be a DF because of his actions. (And half the time I agree.) But simply by reading some of the things Mr. Jordan has written about the man makes me see him in a different light.

At the end of they day I believe Taim will either be shown as Demandred's best proxy or Randland's biggest patsy.


Good point re. Rand being a rebellious Warder. Wonder what would have happened if the SAS AS had gotten to Rand before the Ashaman. I'd imagine Chaos would have been well satisfied.
150. whoami
On coercion and oaths.

I want to reiterate what others have said.

In a war (or battle), the side who wins makes the rules. You don't think that countries in the real world that conquer other countries make their rulers swear fealty? They either swear or are removed. And if they make trouble later, they are removed.

Coercion is what causes independent forces to swear fealty to others. It's just the way of the world.

And it's the same when it comes to the killing at Dumai's wells. The way to defeat the enemy is to *defeat* them. There was no other way for Rand to stop them from fighting.

There are only two choices here. You can win, or you can lose. Rand chose to win.
151. MasterAlThor

I see you.

So do you think that Rand or LTT is singing 'the lunatic is in my head'?


'lock the door and throw away the key, there's someone in my head but it's not me'
Eric Lesch
152. EricLesch
For those of you complaining about the cover art, maybe you will enjoy my interpretations more:
Wheel of Time Stick Figure Art Gallery
Yes, I know this information there is very much out of date, but that is the way it is going to remain. I don't really have the time or motivation to work on it anymore.

Oh, and since this is my first post, even though I've been following along the whole time, I just want to say that you've been doing a great job Leigh. Enjoy your vacation.
Jacy Clark
153. Amalisa

But from what distance? The TAS were surrounded by a "great mass of Shaido". Tens of thousands, if memory serves. That many people take up a lot of space. When Perrin's group began their advance, it was:

Eight hundred paces. Seven hundred. The Two Rivers men dismounted, taking bows in hand. Six hundred. Five. Four.

Dobraine drew his sword, raised it high. "The Lord Dragon, Taborwin and victory!" he shouted, and the shout came from five hundred throats as lances snapped down.

Perrin had just time to seize hold of Dobraine's stirrup before the Cairhienin were thundering forward. Loial's long legs matched the horses pace for pace. Loping along, letting the horse pull him in long leaping strides, Perrin sent his mind out. Come.

Ground covered with brown grass, seemingly empty, suddenly gave birth to a thousand wolves, lean brown plains wolves, and some of their darker heavier forest cousins, running low to hurl themselves into the backs of the Shaido with snapping jaws just as the first long Two Rivers shafts rained out of the sky beyond them. A second flight already arched high. New lightnings fell with the arrows, new fires bloomed. Veiled Shaido turning to fight wolves had only moments to realize they were not the only threat before a solid spear of Aiel stabbed into them alongside a hammer of Cairhienin lancers.

All of that denotes a pretty good distance between where the Aes Sedai were supposed to wait to cover the retreat and where the battle was actually taking place. Three feet to a pace - they were starting at twenty-four hundred feet from the very edge of the mass of thousands of Shaido. Even with saidar enhanced vision, could they reasonably expect to be able to differentiate between friend and foe? Would the Oath make them be that specific? The Wise Ones could stay back and fire away, unbound as they were but not the Aes Sedai.

In A Crown of Swords, Kiruna tells Perrin:
…We could have stood where you would have had us and watched until Tarmon Gai'don without ever being able to do anything effective. Not until we were in danger ourselves.

Yes, I'm sure there was an ulterior motive for getting to Rand first. What I'm not convinced of (regardless of Perrin's thoughts on the matter) is that the ulterior motive was anything more than the advantage that would have come from personally rescuing him. They had no way of knowing that Taim and the Asha'man were going to arrive. If protecting the TAS had been high on their agenda, it would have been strategically advantageous for them to be able to get close enough to the TAS to communicate, don't you think? "You send lightning over there and I'll throw fireballs over here", if nothing else. Or to link, for that matter.

I don't know. Maybe I'm oversimplifying - I do that sometimes. *shrug* But nothing I remember from their earlier parts in the book suggest some great conspiracy between Kiruna and Bera. Yes, they suggested that Alanna should have Compelled him but they were disabused of that notion. Beyond that, they were just being typical Aes Sedai. And they paid the price when swore the oath of fealty.
Thomas Keith
154. insectoid
Well, the twitches have certainly started early!

Before I begin: MasterAlThor @151: BAHAHAhahaha!!! I love that album :)

"We come": YEAH!! Go wolves!

Gawyn: is an idiot. But he loves Egwene.

Asha'man: Eurgh. But effective.

"Kneel, or be knelt": Awesome. Though, a bit creepy coming from very-probably-DF Taim.

Announcement: NOOOOOoooooo!! *coughcough* I mean, enjoy your break, Leigh! I think, however, that we may have TSR#10 Part 2 on this thread by next Tuesday!

Tony Zbaraschuk
155. tonyz
#104 blindillusion: But aren't we all getting just a little tired of the nasty/evil people in this series all belonging to the DO?

Actually, there are a lot of nasty people who don't belong to the DO -- hasn't RJ been beating us over the head with that since the first book, with Aridhol and the Whitecloaks?

#123 alreadymadwithtwistedoath: We know the Oath. Never to use the Power as a weapon except in the last defense of your life, a Warder or a fellow Aes Sedai. Guess who the Shaido had surrounded and were gonna kill in order to get to Rand?

It's still not "the last defense of your life" (or hers) unless you know that the intent is to kill other Aes Sedai. I don't think the AS with Perrin actually know beyond a doubt, or at least close enough for the Third Oath, that there are Aes Sedai in the camp (maybe it's an Aiel faction fight) or that the Aiel intend to kill the Aes Sedai. Another one of the thousand weaknesses in those fool Oaths.

I like whomever suggested that someone thought that Fel was Asmodean and that was why they sent the gholam. On the other hand, removing someone who thinks about the philosophy of the Wheel is very much in Moridin/Ishamael's style.

As far as oaths go, the notion that oaths sworn under duress are invalid is a very modern one: it's based on the notion of the oath being a motion of your own will (and therefore "freely chosen without coercion"). This is not the case in non-modern societies, where the idea is that the oath is ultimately a promise to the divine, which will take the oath as serious no matter how much you may want to get out of it later. To swear an oath is , absolutely, to bind yourself. I think Jordan is going with that older view -- the Oaths of the Aes Sedai are just an externalization of that.
john mullen
156. johntheirishmongol
Leigh, I hate to say this but the only one being sexist is you. Bad guys are bad guys, male or female.

That being said, this is an amazingly written chapter with a variety of viewpoints, superb discription, and a huge payoff at the end.

The battle scene is excellent and easy to visualize, and although bloody, it makes a lot of sense what the Asha'man do. I don't know that having head blown off is any worse than having a spear in your guts, in fact probably much less painful.

As for Gawyn, one thing you learn is to judge people not by what they say, but by how they act. Gawyn sees the abuse Rand is taking and, instead of getting righteous about it, lets it go on without saying a word. He is wrong and he knows it.

As to the swearing of the 9, all I can say is that I thought it was the perfect answer and closing of the chapter, because it was so shocking. Today people dont take oaths, or take them seriously in this day and age. Only in the military do you see it, and too many don't really understand the true meaning of those.

I did finish my reread about 3 weeks ago, and have been waiting patiently ever since. I am on vacation next week so I will have to read the new book while I am on the road. But, I do enjoy these rereads as I enjoy the different perspectives, even if I dont agree with them.
Barry T
157. blindillusion

Actually, there are a lot of nasty people who don't belong to the DO -- hasn't RJ been beating us over the head with that since the first book, with Aridhol and the Whitecloaks?

Yes, I addressed my mistake @149

I realize many characters in this series are quite nasty. Even our heroes have their fair share of nasty moments.

I simply wonder if Taim is truly a DF. Many people seem to think he has to be a DF, especially with his quote at the end of KoD.

I suppose we'll have to wait until we get a POV from the man. Many people thought Eliada had to be a DF as well.
158. Planeswalker
Aes Sedai = Bitches = Politicians

to have them kneel finally let them feel the other way around their spectrum.'s really not a gender issue. stop it. =)
Alice Arneson
159. Wetlandernw
Whoever it was back there... Traveling is not a Talent; it's just that not many channelers (especially AS, since they've done such a lousy job of recruiting for the last thousand years) are strong enough to be able to create the weave. And in this particular scene, not that many Asha'man have to be able to Travel, since a bunch of them come through gates others created, as someone mentioned above. So I would suppose that in the BT, those strong enough were taught to Travel asap. That's certainly what the SAS did as soon as Egwene figured it out - everyone who could, learned, and those who were too weak to Travel independently learned to do it via a link.

Too many trained Asha'man too soon? Yeah, that's one I just try not to analyze. It would only drive me nuts. But their training is pretty limited, so it might work: do everything you can with the OP until you get it figured out, and spend all your training time learning to be a weapon. No messing around with Illusions, passing little flames back and forth, eavesdropping, or whatever. Just LEARN TO KILL.

@121 the plural of Asha'man is Asha'man.

Other Alias @ 133 - "tail end of the comments"??? Are you kidding? You'e only at 133!! With no post from Leigh on Wednesday, this is sure to hit 350 or 400 easy, and I'm guessing more like 500. The "tail end of the comments" never comes until after the next post is out. :)
Ian Horn
160. IanGH
Great post, Leigh. Enjoy your holiday.

I find that the closing scene of LoC is one of the most disturbing of the series, despite some awesome moments of wolves and exploding boxes. Since this is a reread, we know the darkness that will descend upon Rand as a result of his captivity and seeing Rand extract fealty from some Aes Sedai and capture others as prisoners doesn't really make it any happier. Many of the other books end in much more clear-cut victories.

I too, am uncomfortable labeling all the Aes Sedai as bitches. Of course many of them are, and not just in their treatment of men. They can be equally bitchy to women and to each other. What bothers me here is that I think this is really Bera's and Kiruna's fault for mishandling things and they all get tarred with the same brush. Merana recognized that they needed Rand when they left Caemlyn but Bera and Kiruna ran right over her. I would like to see them get slapped silly. The others, not so much. (OK. You can slap Alanna around, too.)

By the way, on this reread, this passage stood out:
Verin kept silent, but she smelled furious - and afraid.

What does this mean? I'm sure there's been a ton of speculation on this in other places.
161. Nanaimobar
Ok, Point 1. Perrin + Wolves = Awesomeness. Simply goose bump inspiring awesomeness. I love every thing in his POV. And I mean everything. Even Zarine. But after all this chapter has always been #1. "We come." (shiver)

Point 2. "Kneel or be knelt." Ranks up there with "I don't think we are in Kansas anymore." The revolution has is now at a point where it must be formally recognized. The Tower is broken. The ignorant, arrogant, manipulative forces have been defeated. And the victor not only gets to write the history, draw the borders, but to dictate the future political relationship between the two sides. It is here that Rand finally shows the intestinal fortitude to do what must be done. He needs to show he is capable of the iron fist. The commands to exterminate the Shaido and to potentially enforce his dominion over the Aes Sedai are the first time we see how like iron he can be.

Now it will take six more books for his companions to convince him that he doesn't have to stay that way forever.
162. Freelancer

Perrin is stabbing a finger at the map of Malden, asking where Faile is within the Shaido camp.

Galina is trying to frighten Perrin away from attacking the camp, because she fears that he will get killed by the Shaido, and then her leverage with Faile will evaporate.

Gaul is the uber-tall redhead in cadin-sor with his hands on his belt. And that's a knife, not a sword hanging from it.

Gerard Arganda, Alliandre's First Captain, is the squint-eyed grey haired man in the ornate (very Spanish looking) breastplate over a red velvet coat, with his arms folded across his chest.

Around the back is Jur Grady holding back a heavy curtain, and an unidentified pikeman.

The scene is from the Prologue.
Hurin Smells
163. HurinSmells
First of all, this:


... ahem, right, that's done.

So like many above have said, I don't believe the sense of satisfaction at seeing the Aes Sedai kneel to Rand has anything to do with a male/female thing. I read it more like: Finally! A recognition of the authority of the one person chosen to save the world from a fractured and frequently ineffective political body.

Of course, the Aes Sedai also have a long standing prejudice against men chanelling and have no reason to trust that he is at all capable of saving the world, so there's that.

The "kneel... or you will be knelt" thing may be seen as coersion, but these are supposed to be inflappable Aes Sedai. I have no doubt they could have refused to kneel even in the face of Asha'man. We get multiple POV's from Verin later on that indicate ta'veren intervention is the only reason.

Notably, this marks the the first of two WoT books where there's no direct conflict between Rand and one of the Forsaken (at least on the face of it). The only other book being CoT (although we didn't learn that Dashiva in PoD was re-Forsaken until later).
164. peachy
The AS should just be happy they're in a Jordan story (that big softie) - if GRRM were writing this, Rand would have shortened a couple of the Tower crew to make an example.
Brett Michie
165. bchurch
Master Al Thor @ 151

I see you.

And I think that they're both singing. But, IMHO, Rand has more right to sing it truthfully. LT is just confused. This is Rand's incarnation--his turn, if you will. LT is helping him, to be sure. But they're both having a hard time coming to grips with sharing mindspace. I can see Leigh's and other's point of view that LT is just a construct of Rand's madness, but I still believe he's real. It's just the way I've always read it and I'm going off my gut feeling. If proven wrong, I'll happily concede.
Thomas Garst
166. Garstzilla
Great job on everything, Leigh. Please enjoy your holiday/hiatus and I hope whatever Boojums are in your home garden get a vorpal haircut.

I think everything else has been touched on excellently. I want to know more about the fight between Sullin and Nandera.
My own opinion is that the Maidens value emotional control as well as martial skill in their leaders and the result of the fight between them showed Sulin that her depth of worry over Rand was overpowering her good sense. She won the fight but lost the war so to speak. It puts me in mind of and I am not sure what kind of fighting it is called but it is the one where the fighters actually score more for how close they miss and loose points if an actual connection is made. Skill and control govern the fight not emotional outrage.

It appears here that Nandera would normally be in charge here but Sulin's anger and worry prompt her to try to take command.

plus a thousand Maidens, which he had had to insist on to keep all the Maidens from coming, “carrying a torch to tell the world that Rand al’Thor is in danger”. Sulin and Nandera both flush, and start to retort at the same time, then glare at each other. Sulin looks away, and Nandera tells Rhuarc stiffly that the Maidens gave their pledge to follow him.

Heres the end of the fight and Sulin actually looses control enough to bang Nandera's head against the ground and knocking her unconscious.

After two days of jostling for command, Sulin and Nandera try to kill each other, or so Perrin assumes, and Rhuarc has to stop him from interfering. Sulin wins the fight, slamming Nandera’s head against the ground and knocking her out, but the next time he sees them, Sulin obeys Nandera, and Perrin cannot figure that out either.

Sulin backs down after the fight forcibly shows her that she is not objective enough to lead.
Brett Michie
167. bchurch
Ok everyone, I apologize for this. I seem to say that a lot. But, anyways, waaaay back on tDR 9, some of us were joking around about songs that were apt for Rand's captivity. This was in response to R.Fife's wonderful alternate lyrics that he posted on that thread. It was a lark and I wrote some alternate lyrics of my own to a song from one of my favorite bands. I quite liked it at the time, but am not so sure anymore. Please feel free to skip them if you like . . it's all a jest. And please don't let it sidetrack everyone's wonderful commentary; I truly love this forum as I love these books and I am thankful for the opportunity to be part of this community.

To the tune of Alice in Chains' Man in the Box

I'm the man in the box
Cut off from saidin
Wish Lews Therin
Would shut up

Feel their shield
Madman inside my head
Please Light
Let me out of here
They've got Min
Killed some warders
Feel their shield
Wait for the knots to harden

I'm the Dragon who gets beat
Want to sever them all
Wish Lews Therin
Would help me

Feel their shield
Madman inside my head
Please Light
Let me out of here
They've got Min
Killed some warders
Feel their shield
Wait for the knots to harden

Free from their shield
And I've stilled three now
Please Light
Let Min be ok
Asha'man destroy Shaido
Think I'm gonna puke
Never trust Aes Sedai
Kneel or you'll be knelt
168. afterthefallofnight
The reread has been great fun. I am sorry to hear you will be taking a break. I hope the vacation goes well and you resume the reread. But whether you do or do not, thanks for bringing me this far.

- Why did I like this so much? 'Cause the hero escaped being tortured. The bad guys were routed. (I know the Good guys slaughtered the Bad guys at the end, but in the beginning of the battle, the Bad guys were slaughtering the Good guys.) And the incompetent, bossy Good guys (er, gals) were forced to accept at least some consequences of their incompetence. And 'cause Taim and the Asha'man are even creepier than ever.

- I always thought the AS society was unappealing but well thought out. Of course they are arrogant jerks. They all have magic powers, they all live for hundreds of years, they are always healthy and always beautiful. It would be unrealistic if they were not arrogant jerks. The Aiel Wise Ones are not much better. The Asha'man are worse but for different reasons.

The meritocracy of the AS is based primarily (though to be fair, not exclusively) on *magical might* - not intelligence, honesty, leadership, etc. Again, this is perfectly reasonable since we are talking about an extremely insular society of magicians. So it make perfect sense for the Tower to devolve into a society of bullies. I don't think the Wise Ones are anywhere near as credible. In fact, it makes very little sense that over hundreds or thousands of years the Aiel who are magically strong (and not constrained by oath rods) and smart ("wise ones") and tough and competitive would not completely control Aiel society. Strong societal integration and mores can only take you so far.

This is part what makes Rand's coercion of the AS so satisfying. Rand (at least the beginning) and Perrin and Mat don't want to be generals or kings or any other type of boss, but they are good at it when necessary (and for the most part they are not bullies). Almost all the AS want to be or assume they are leaders and most of them suck at it. Even the competent AS leaders are bullies which makes them fairly unsympathetic. (That may come from RJ's experience in the military. There are plenty of stories about sucky ROTC officers vs officers raised from the ranks of enlisted men. Who knows?)

I don't really understand why making the AS knell is troublesome. Its a medieval-ish society. People knell to kings, rulers, etc. They swear loyalty. Rand is a little freaked out. His allies, seem to have been planning to do to him what his enemies just did. He has only been able to trust one AS "adviser" and she swore and oath to him. And she said to distrust all AS. The AS are magic users that can wipe out armies and he is convinced he can't trust them. Requiring a pledge of allegiance might not be wise, but given the circumstances it seems believable.

Besides, I thought a key element of the prophecies was that everyone or almost everyone would eventually be bent to the need of the Dragon? If the Women in this world are the rulers and Rand has to conquer or bend everyone to unite them, doesn't that mean he has to conquer lots of women rulers?

- Last thought - I would assume that every honorable person in RJ's universe would say that the oaths given were binding (even if the Oath Rods were not in effect). I appreciate the point that they were coerced, but in romantic or chivalrous fiction, oaths to kings, monarchs, or other rulers are almost always considered binding. It would be more than a little surprising if the same rules did not apply in RJ's world.
Thomas Keith
169. insectoid
Wetlandernw @159: May I guess 800? ;D

Free @162: Well, I certainly didn't know what Arganda looked like! ***read too fast, sigh***

bchurch @167: Heh.

Also, since I don't think Sub has mentioned it yet: ONE WEEK TO TGS!!!
Michael Catapano
170. hoping
Enjoy your well deserved rest. Hoping all is well

I see your point about how some people might have a sexist view of the AS outcome. My guess is that it is only a very small percentage of people, probably 2-4% but perhaps as many as 15%.

well Leigh's comments really ruined my Wotgasm. Are we really reducing the best battle (and overall top 3) scene in Wot to yet another sexism rant?
'twas a bit of a weenie killer

I always thought the heads exploding were a bit excessive. They could have achieved the same result with just busting a small cerebral blood vessel with much less cost of the power and a sight less messy. Much more green and efficient.

Arrogant, prideful, rude, manipulative, self-righteous, nasty, manipulative, power-hungry are words used by many commenters to describe all AS. I think kneeling and swearing is too good for them. They should all be decently collared, ala the Seanchan. They'll cause much less trouble. There's not much difference anyway, is there?
Just saying.
*dives for the bunker* Do we get cable in here?
TW Grace
171. TWGrace
@170 I always thought the heads exploding were a bit excessive. They could have achieved the same result with just busting a small cerebral blood vessel with much less cost of the power and a sight less messy. Much more green and efficient.

Someone just dropping with no wounds could just be knocked out or put to sleep, unless you take time to examine them. So you might think your friend is just incapacitated. There is no mistaking someone with an exploded head as being anything other than D-E-D dead...

Plus pulpy heads have the added benefit of spurting blood and gore...

Never underestimate the psychological effects of one wants to leave an ugly corpse.

Linda Taglieri
172. Linda
How did Taim find Rand?

RJ himself answered this:

Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B. and finding out of the disappearance of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Travelling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man.

- Booksigning in Sweden.
Michael Catapano
173. hoping
Yes but
My way would have quicker and perhaps all of the Shaido could have been dispensed with. Imagine that. No Shaido, no faile rescue arc. Right there would have been worth it.
stefan warsink
174. grubber
@ 170, 171, 173:

I think the big hammer will cost less effort than the surgical option here. (power combined with precision)

plus, it's way faster. see a head, pop it! next please!
175. alreadymadwithkirunaandco
Amalisa @153
We know what Kiruna said in the next book. But the thing with Aes Sedai is, it's not what they say that you should be paying attention to. It's what they don't say. Yes, they could have stayed there, 800 paces is comparable to the distance Rand, Avi and Eg channeled during the battle for Cairhien. Rand had absolutely no trouble distinguishing people from that distance. I have no doubt they could at least distinguish Aiel from Tower personnel at that distance. As it is, six Warders died. Three Aes Sedai died. Gawyn's men providing escort died. So we know that they were definitely in mortal danger. Kiruna and co. could have helped from that distance. But they did not choose to. They said they could have stayed there until Tarmon Gai'don before they could do anything. They DID NOT say they would not be able to do anything.
They wanted to present themselves to the Dragon Reborn as rescuers and curry favor. At the very worst, they wanted to get to Rand first so they could enforce their "lawful" authority over a bonded Warder before anybody else got to him.
Jay Dauro
176. J.Dauro
Amalisa @153

…We could have stood where you would have had us and watched until Tarmon Gai'don without ever being able to do anything effective. Not until we were in danger ourselves.

Third Oath.
Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.

tonyz @155
It's still not "the last defense of your life" (or hers) unless you know that the intent is to kill other Aes Sedai. I don't think the AS with Perrin actually know beyond a doubt, or at least close enough for the Third Oath, that there are Aes Sedai in the camp (maybe it's an Aiel faction fight) or that the Aiel intend to kill the Aes Sedai. Another one of the thousand weaknesses in those fool Oaths.

I don't know how they resolve this with the First Oath, but it sure seems to me that they could do something to attack the Shaido. And the WO were at about the same distance.

With the amount of the One Power being channeled on both sides, they can see the AS in the camp (in KoD the WO see it in the Shaido camp.) And it's pretty obvious there are channelers on both sides fighting.

hoping @170
I always thought the heads exploding were a bit excessive. They could have achieved the same result with just busting a small cerebral blood vessel with much less cost of the power and a sight less messy. Much more green and efficient.
But when you practice on rocks it's much harder to find those little blood vessels. ;^)
John Massey
177. subwoofer
Also, since I don't think Sub has mentioned it yet: ONE WEEK TO TGS!!!-

Sub was busy plotting the death of his neighbor who has a dysfunctional car alarm and sleeps like a rock. Ahhhhh there the stupid thing goes again. Since 4 am. It is 06:22 my time.

Ahem- Home stretch folks! T-minus 7 days!!!

@HS -Woop! Woop!- telling family and work to take a hike and lemme read the book.

@Hoping- We have Dish- and think of the heads like bubble wrap, then it's not so bad ;)

James Jones
178. jamesedjones
177 Subwoofer

Since Leigh won't be posting rereads for a while, maybe we could come up with WOT ideas for how to deal with Sub's neighbor. I'm partial to sticking a gholam in his tailpipe.
Sean Banawnie
179. Seanie
hoping you're a hoot ! can't bleat those comments...

Leigh, well gotta say it , we'll miss ya.....
Its been good stuff , recharge your batteries...but not too long, overcharged batteries aren't green behaviour....
and remember you are letting the kids run around
here with sharp objects so don't be gone too long...hope @#$^&&%#@ comes together for ya...
we love ya ,,,even tho you stir #$%^&%^#$ up. *small chuckle* Mistress of Chaos *big chuckle*
enjoy your early copy...we know you have it (signed too , I bet) ;)

as far as commentary, gender had nothing to do with it for me. If I reverse roles, like you said --same opinion . Arrogance smackdown.
Lord of Chaos indeed. Can you blame Rand for being angry ? Hell ,they are lucky he didn't vaporize them. But cooler heads should have prevented this. Taim(Darkfriend alert Darkfriend alert ) served chaos---although that is a very cool line-- see we were angry too! cruelty begets harshness....
Bera and Kiruna get punished for doing the right thing for the wrong reason...because of their arrogance...I think if they came up and said 'you have been badly mistreated ,may we heal you'
(even tho , I don't think he would have accepted Healing) he's not in his happy place esp as far as AS--SAS or WT either one.
They would not have been 'knelt' ...maybe.. he was pretty pissed... still its pretty dumb to get snippy with a pissed off 'messiah'
Like last post with galina-- for me -- nothing to do with orientation , everything to do with evilll. I am looking forward to the good Reds(now THAT'S weird) kicking some Ashahole ,hopefully in TGS .{Taim's crew, not Logain's}
I need to catch my breath .And clean up after breakfast. Dried oatmeal practically takes the OP to get it off.

Mountain Dew Voltage+Oatmeal=morning rambling rant
{and black tea}
Be Well Leigh. Even if we are jealous of your early signed copy .

Peace favor your mouse.
Sean Banawnie
180. Seanie
careful jej, that will start thread 30 discussion all over again.
Michael Catapano
181. hoping
re sub's neighbor
I just happen to have a pile of pulpy heads you can dump in his driveway. I can let them go cheap, no more than an Andoran gold crown

Just trying to keep busy until the adults show up

I finally get it. bleat, goats lol
Matthew Smith
182. blocksmith
Took a while to make it through the comments but here goes...

Hands down my favorite chapters of the entire series...incredibly well written and the "beat" is perfect both in each one and how the chapters flow together. The wolves step up to the plate knowing full well they will be taking a high hard one. Cairheinin+Aiel finally equals some small amount of respect. Gawyn...still dumb. "Asha'man, Kill!"...brutal, direct, and entirely dominating. Rand physically free but mentally damaged in such a way the is completely understandable by the reader.

Finally, Leigh, well deserved vacation and I also sincerely hope all is well. A tiny little voice in my head keeps saying "maybe she is planning to elope", but that's probably just LTT.

I have honestly never given any thought to the "kneel or be knelt" being sexist. Just always interpreted it that they disobeyed a command (one that Rand had the power to give)and were given the choice of either imprisonment or fealty. Remember, some of the AS from the tower embassy took many more books to ultimately swear fealty(involving some compulsion from Verin...wait, that's AS on AS crime...I call reverse sexism!) because of their imprisonment.

Master Al Thor @46, 151 and Bchurch @80...I believe that LTT and Rand actually met on the Dark Side of Moon and ultimately, they are two lost souls living in a fish bowl...year after year.

Blindillusion@104...check the end of Knife of Dreams when the Reds show up at the Black Tower. Taim's quote is "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Which is a repeat quote from Demandred. If looks like an apple, smells like an apple, and tastes like an apple...its probably an apple. Taim is DF, no doubt about it.

Finally, well deserved vacation/break Leigh. A tiny little voice in my head keeps saying you are either headed to an desert spa for a month or R & R or are eloping. Could also be BSC LTT. Whatever it is, may you find good water (I mean Corona and Lime)and shade (I mean a beach umbrella and clear skies).
Michael Catapano
183. hoping
re sub's neighbor
How about a load of choss?
Jacy Clark
184. Amalisa
alreadymadwithkirunaandco and J.Dauro...

Eight hundred paces to the back edge of 40,000Aiel. Picture a football stadium full of fans who are sitting, not milling about. And they're surrounding a space much smaller than a football field. Spotting individuals would be a logistical challenge, really.

Yes, I know that what one hears an Aes Sedai say isn't always what she really said... Maybe she did have some big ulterior motive. Kiruna is dead now so, unless there's some reveal from Bera, we won't really know...
Sean Banawnie
185. Seanie
do you have a choss hauler in mind?
186. PhantomIce

I know everyone reminds us of the Taim quote "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" as definitive proof that Taim is DF as blocksmith@182 did and that everyone is right in that there is ample evidence pointing in that direction

but for some unknown weird reason I'm with you in not quite being able to believe Taim is DF. I agree something is off about the man but somehow I can't get myself to believe that he is a DF. So you're not alone on this one my friend.
187. cps2195
I'm surprised one of our resident lawyers haven't ripped apart the 3rd oath yet. It seems to me that the oath is very relative. There have to be AS out there who could have channeled without having to walk into the middle of the field. Maybe newer AS or AS less experienced with combat (wouldn't this be almost all AS?) would feel there life is in immenent danger before a more seasoned AS?

I'm sure in WWI some soldiers felt their life was in imminent danger just by being in a trench near the field while others didn't feel the same until they crossed No Man's Land.

Also the language of the oath doesn't really give any guidelines for use of the power in a combat situation. It seems to apply more to being attacked directly by an individual or small group. Are you only allowed to attack the person directly attacking you or are you allowed to use the OP indiscriminately? At DW could the AS have attacked Rand's own forces?

One more thing regarding The asha'man slaughter of the Shaido. It never once occured to me that it was excessive or unneccesary. They are an enemy force on a field of combat. The job of a combat force is to destroy the enemy's ability to wage war. A routed force is cannonfodder (or in this case OP fodder.) One of the many uses of cavalry was to mow down an army that was hastily retreating. To me the OP desplay was no more brutal then machine guns or grapeshot.
188. J.Dauro
Amalisa @184

Did they need the best telescopes on the planet to see what they were doing? That's what Egwene and Aviendha used, and still managed to channel.

In KoD the WO can see channeling from the back of the battlefield with no problem. Throughout the Shaido camp, which was as large as a city.

No, they could easily have done it from where they were.
Michael Catapano
189. hoping
Plenty of posters here have shown they can throw the choss around. No problem there
190. Robert Edwin
My take on the whole "kneel or be knelt" part:

Yes, upon first reading the instinct is to cry "Awesome! What a bad-ass line!" However, looking back on the series, and seeing LoC as the "turning-point" (as far as where the books started to become meandering and leading nowhere, with tons of meaningless side stories thrown in), I can't help but get pissed off whenever I read this part of the ending: "The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world was changed forever."

No, it WASN'T changed forever. In fact the world wasn't changed AT ALL by this happening. I remember the first time I read that I thought "Sweet, now in the next book things will be very different and we will finally make some progress!" I feel sad for the person I was back then, not knowing the truth of what was to come, still foolishly optimistic.

Ok, I'm being melodramatic. Anyway, I just always thought that "world was changed forever" part was bull, because nothing substantial really ends up changing in the balance of power.
Barry T
191. blindillusion

check the end of Knife of Dreams when the Reds show up at the Black Tower. Taim's quote is "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Which is a repeat quote from Demandred. If looks like an apple, smells like an apple, and tastes like an apple...its probably an apple. Taim is DF, no doubt about it.

Yes, Taim did say those words. But he also claimed it to be an old saying.

I'd argue that Taim spent much of his time with Gedwyn, Rochaid, Torval, and Kisman and simply picked it up from them by way of "Dashiva".

Why did he try to kill Rand, completely going against the DO's orders? Taim cannot keep up with Rand and that scares him.

I also say I'm 50/50 on Taim. Some things lead me to believe he is Demandred's proxy. Other things lead me to believe he's attempting to build a power base for himself. He could also be nothing more than a patsy.

I'm looking forward to a POV from him. Or complete proof. Six words do not offer this.
stefan warsink
192. grubber
@ blind illusion: how about "I am not/definitely a friggin' darkfriend".

that's six words ;)

aaaaaand that was my bit of choss for the pile on sub's neighbour's lawn.
193. RobMRobM
Blind - not only does he has the Lord of Chaos rule statement but he also has Moridin's red and black color scheme and the fistful of lightning bolts sigil used by the Foresakens Be'lal and Sammael. Game, set, match.
194. MasterAlThor

Good one for Alice N Chains. Love them too.


Did you say we get Dish in here? Does that mean we get NFL Sunday Ticket?

Who is bringing what? I don't wanna bring something that someone else is bringing.

I can bring pepperoni dip.
195. Freelancer

I see what you did there.

Ok, now that the initial passions have subsided, I will comment on the chapter.
Perrin hesitated before answering. He had dreaded this. He felt about the wolves as he did about Two Rivers people. They have caged Shadowkiller, he thought at last. That was what the wolves called Rand, but he had no idea whether they considered Rand important.

The shock filling his mind was answer enough, but howls filled the night, near and far, howls filled with anger and fear. In the camp horses whinnied fearfully, stamping their hooves as they shied against the picket ropes. Men ran to calm them, and others to peer into the darkness as if expecting a huge pack to come after the mounts.

We come, Half Tail replied at last. Only that, and then others answered, packs Perrin had spoken to and packs that had listened silently to the two-legs who could speak as the wolves did. We come. No more.

I absolutely cannot read this passage without the same reaction as the very first time. But after the second read, where I began hunting for the minutia, I had to wonder why Perrin never tells Rand that the wolves have his back. I know he doesn't want to reveal his wolfbrotherness to anyone more than necessary, but Rand? Surely he could have said something. Oh well.

Loial. It was one thing for him to protect the women and children in the Stone, holding the door against all comers. It's another to wade into a killing field without an agenda, just because it's your friend.

Aram. Laughing, really? This was the red flag that he isn't just disturbed, but completely unhinged. Only his devotion to Faile and Perrin provide him any sense of foundation or he'd have been worthless long before Malden.

As someone else said, Taim actually smiled. Another red flag.

Min. Girl gots muchos juevos. What had she endured when Galina told her to consider how many tears a man was worth? What were the questions, and how little did she give up? I'd like to see her run into Galina again, while "little Lina" is unable to channel, and Min has her knives handy.

Rand. Three Aes Sedai stilled at once, and while he was still in the box. It's a good thing he isn't fully trained, and a better thing that he didn't lose his humanity yet. He might have matched the asha'man on his own.

Rhuarc and Dobraine. How can Rand go anywhere that might be hazardous and not want those two along?

Kiruna. Dumb, dumb, dumb. You chopped the carrots, sliced the onions, peeled the potatoes, then threw yourself and your Salidar sisters in your own stew. May you remain on a low simmer for a long time.
196. MasterAlThor

When is the party? Aren't we supposed to come over and wreck your neighbors lawn?

I know some people, we could....remove the car...alarm.
Delzun D
197. Delzun
Why can't I see links to new posts from index?
( )
Newest one there is Part 29.
I tried deleting cookies from browser. It's difficult to find these posts without index page.
Barry T
198. blindillusion
Hmm...this could be argued for years...which I believe it has =>


Red/black is my favorite color scheme too. Those colors look awesome together.

And the lightning bolt symbol? Well, we are talking about a power hunger individual here. What's a more powerful symbol than lightning? He's in good company for others that use that symbol.

I cannot recall from the text, but do all three of these individuals use the same exact symbol?

...gonna go look for my red and black checkered Vans..where'd I put those things....
stefan warsink
199. grubber
@ 197:
use this one:
Rob Munnelly
200. RobMRobM
@198 - I don't have the text handy but, yes, they use the same sigil.
201. Freelancer

Hah, Authentics! I've had red/black, blue/black, and my current pair are black/creme. Right next to my Chucks.
John Massey
202. subwoofer
Problem solved. Called City By-law. The showed up- called a tow truck. Tow truck shows up. Starts hitching up. Then the doofus wakes up. Told him to shut up. Tow truck driver had the car up. Told him to go down to city impound then pay up.

Came late to work but it was worth it.

Loial waded into a killing field to save the Dragon. Good on him for not sitting this one out like the rest of the Ogier.

Barry T
203. blindillusion

Comfy footwear--nothing beats it. Especially when it's awesome. And I'm still trying to get all my stuff upacked in my apartment...I don't even know where all my Chucks are.


Yes, I just read about it on the 13thD. Wasn't that also the signal used by Gode in tEotW? Or something to do with lightning?
Dick Papazian
204. Papas

Has there been booksignings in Sweden!?!?! How did I miss this.... :(
Peter Nein
205. gimpols1908
wow, i didn't have a chance to post yesterday and look what happened! 200! Jeez guys you are taking this 'let's break' to a new level! I WAS gonna comment on the whole kneeling scene, but I have a feeling it has been replayed so many times that the AS have worn holes in their dresses.

I will say that I don't agree that it was as forced as it seems. They are just learning the hard way what Mo was able to figure out for herself. To control you must be the bank of the river bending with the power of the river, but you can make subtle adjustments. These AS just had their banks jumped and suddenly found themselves drowning. The clung to the only stick they saw.

7 days and counting!
John Massey
206. subwoofer
@205 Heightened excitement for the upcoming book. Everybody is paying attention now. Where's the Fifester?

paul Hend
207. tugthis
I think Leigh has either understimated us, or is deliberatly proviking us with her "bitches" scenario. I do not see one poster who has taken Leigh's posited stance. Yea us!
Rob Munnelly
208. RobMRobM
Leigh is the Lord of Chaos, and she rules - as evidenced by last two threads.
209. Lsana
I want to preface my comments by saying that I don't believe that Jordan intended for the kneeling scene to be sexist. I also don't believe that the majority of fans cheering the scene are cheering anything other than obnoxious and arrogant leaders being taken down a peg.


When I first read this scene, the gender aspect of it was what struck me first. I understand how it could be seen as the "old power," the Aes Sedai, being forced to submit to the "new power," Rand. However, this scene occurs right after the Asha'man have been revealed to the world, and it is Taim rather than Rand who goes for the "kneel or you will be knelt" comment. Given those two points, I saw it less about the Aes Sedai and Rand, and more about how the female organization was forced to submit before the more powerful male organization represented by the Asha'man.

Again, I don't think that's what Jordan intended. But it is certainly there, and you don't have to dig very deeply to see it.
210. MasterAlThor


Well at 6-0 you can be whatever you want.

Don't worry the typo demon gets me all the time. I wish we could balefire him.


How many days left?

Just checkin
211. MasterAlThor

Why see it at all? Why look for it? That was not the intent and since the writers intent is what counts the most why bother?

Really, what we all get out of it matters, but it is secondary. Jordan is not a sexist, we know that, he isn't racist, we know that, and he is not a homophobe, we know that too. so why look for things that are not the readers intent?
212. Lsana

My point is that I wasn't looking. I didn't go into Dumai's Wells thinking, "Let's see what examples of sexism I can find today." It was just there. I couldn't help seeing it, any more than I can help seeing elephant dung when I go to the zoo.

You didn't see it. Fine. But it seems (a) A bit disingenuous to accuse those of us who did see it as acting in bad faith, and (b) A bit arrogant to assume that because you don't see it that it is completely unworth discussion.
213. whoami
I was thinking about the anger Rand was obviously feeling after being freed from the box, and it came to mind that one reaction that could have happened would have been a decision to strike back at Elaida for capturing and beating him.

It would have been trivial for him to have taken some Asha'man, gated into the Tower, and taken Elaida prisoner, knelt her, or killed her, which would have been a perfectly natural reaction.

I wonder how the story would have evolved from that point? A White Tower potentially occupied by the forces of the Dragon.

It could have been similar to the Caemlyn thing, where Rand holds the throne for someone like Elayne. Or Not.
215. MasterAlThor
214 tugthis

I feel your pain. Me too


I am not trying to say that those of you who have seen it are acting in bad faith. I was just asking why look for it?

I do not think/believe/assume that it isn't worthy of disscussion, I just think that....well wait maybe I do think that.

I apologize if that is arrogant of me. Look at the other poster who have said they don't see it. They don't feel that it is sexist. They would feel the same way if it was reversed. This is why I believe that people who see sexism are just looking for it.

You said you see it like you see dung when you go to the zoo. Fine, when I go to the zoo I choose not to see the dung. Maybe that means I have my head in the sand. Could be true, but I see those people who constantly see things end up seeing ghost subconsciously.

That very well may not be you. I am not trying to offend. I just believe that if it isn't the writers intent, then we maybe reading too much into it.

Again I apologize if my comments offended you.
216. Rand al'Todd
Poor little Galina.
She thinks of herself as super sneaky, almost all powerful head bitch of the BA, with her neat little scheme to get Gawyn killed in a Shaido ambush.

But wait!!! She has been out schemed. Not by the DO. Not by a Forsaken. Not even by a true darkfriend. But by a backward Aiel savage (translate to Dumb Blonde Bimbo since that is the stereotype image she sees in Sevanna).

If Perrin and the rescuers had not arrived, our reasonable expectation is that Galina and all the other Tower Aes Sedai would have been killed (or captured) by the Shaido (as happened to her, just not all the others). Mission NOT accomplished, and if ever she can escape, she gets to look over her shoulder for the rest of her life, waiting for punishment from the DO and Forsaken.

(and from what we see in KOD, the Forsaken might just consider leaving her where she is as the best possible punishment. Yea!!!!!)
Tony Zbaraschuk
217. tonyz
Rand has no way of knowing what he'll find when he jumps into the Tower. What if Elaida is waiting for him with a circle of thirteen and a sa'angreal? What if the Tower has a few people on alert just waiting for that sort of thing? It may be low-probability, but he can't risk it. (And considering that the Salidar camp was ready to rapidly form circles, it's not an idea that Aes Sedai don't think about.)
218. MasterAlThor
Subwoofer @139

Finally saw your, cool.

Haven't seen that video in forever. Thanks for the memory trip.

Your gonna have me on youtube all day.
Peter Nein
219. gimpols1908
On a personal note - I have a soft spot for the ending of this book. Book 7 is where I actually caught up with the series. So this was my first taste of not having the next plot line ready to go. Summer of 96 I read CoS and have been awaiting each new book, and cursing Conan, ever since.
Elroy Skimms
220. elroyskimms
I fail to see how the Good Guys lost any moral ground in this victory. Yes, it was a slaughter, only because the good guys ended up being more powerful than the bad guys anticipated. War sucks, I understand that. But this "wholesale slaughter" was between armed opponents. It's not as if Rand went after the women and children of the Shaido and built a wall from their exploded fleshy parts. Two armed factions met on a field of battle and one side destroyed the other.

The purpose of a battle is to gain ground or some strategic asset. The purpose of a war is to put your enemy out of business. This was a battle, in the midst of a war. Had he let the running Shaido live, they would only have fought them again some time in the future. He let the Shaido run away at Cairhien, and now he has to face them again. His options were to break them now or allow them to sack more villages and murder more civilians.

I fail to see how a decisive victory, resulting only in the death of combatants, lowers the moral standing of the victorious army.

Rikka Cordin
221. Rikka
Just making sure everyone knows that Amazon and Walmart are having price wars atm. Walmart's price for TGS is down to 14 or 15$ (only online though).

Yanno, for those of us who don't normally buy hardback books. ;)
222. cps2195

I wonder if it is listed as "online only" because it hasn't been released yet. Even Sarah Palin's book is listed as "online only" and you know that will be in stores. In fact every book in the "coming soon" category is "online only."

so the question is will Walmart have it and if so at $14.00? Nyone have any clue?
Justin Levitt
223. TyranAmiros
@152 Eric: Love the stick figure art site!
James Jones
224. jamesedjones
202 Subwoofer

Awesome resolution! Nearly as cool as the ending to this chapter.

221 Rikka

And there's already been a news story about books in the top few on the bestseller list being marked down to $9 bucks. tGS is only at 17 right now. We still need some more work.

Oh yeah, the chapter. I just can't see it as a Pyrrhic victory. And I've tried. Taim manages to stir some chaos at the end, but there are no doubts in any reader's mind that the TAS are not going to follow Rand without significant changes in infrastructure. And there's only 30 something of them (if you haven't read the series yet, they're pretty weak, blind, arrogant and useless), so it's not that big a loss to the forces of light.

The SAS are a little better, sure, but they only start making forward progress toward TG after they swear to Rand. I've got my fingers crossed that the core AS might actually contribute to the light once the Seanchan attack and the WT is restored, but until now (or even until the end of the existing books) only the maverick AS have done anything good for the world.

Strangely enough, Moiraine and Cadsuane seem to be just as much mavericks as Mat - if you look at it solely from an AS perspective. Cool huh?

So, unless you really see the Shaido as part of the forces of light, nothing bad comes of this. Except for all the wolves that died. :(
Matthew Smith
225. blocksmith

I think the general thought is that Rand's imprisonment is like the express elevator to floor, Talking to voices in your head, battling for control over saidin, and women's your step.

While the battle in and of itself is minimally damaging to the forces supporting Rand (a few Asha'man, some Cairhein, Mayaners, Aiel, and Two Rivers folk), the sequence of events is massively damaging to cohesion amongst the factions that need to marshall for the last battle.

And the wolves. Their losses sugar coating that one.
226. Freelancer

You expected some folks to speak up and say "Hey, that's me, Mr. Misogyny!"? That's likely to happen just about the time folks publicly tell you they are racists.


Not calling you a sexist or anything, but Leigh would be the Lady of Chaos, not the Lord. Just sayin'.
227. alreadymadwithTVraid
whoami @213
I don't think Rand would have established a permanent or even semi-permanent presence in Tar Valon. He respects Eg enough to stay away from any meddling in its affairs. That said, I don't believe he was not tempted to take his 200 Asha'man and Gateway there either. Just a quick raid though. Possibly set fire to the White Tower itself, or to the palace Elaida is building. Or, as you pointed out, to seize Elaida herself. Even with quick circles, They just can't match a rapid Gateway raid. The AS will never know what hit them.
Barry T
228. blindillusion
Eh well, slightly off topic but I enjoy the commentors in this thread.

Has anyone ever raised the question of whether or not freeing Moiraine from Finnland will be a good thing?

Me you might ask? I think it's going to be AWESOME to have her back, but still....

- She's been the captive of an alien race for what, a little over a year now?

- She didn't go through that door under the most ideal circumstances.

I mean, she has the potential to come out just as bugshit as Rand is now.

Like I said, I'm looking forward to her triumphant return. But it's something to discuss.

Especially seeing as the AS kneeling to Rand was in no way sexist. Taim may have added an eww factor Rand didn't intend, but the Dragon Reborn was simply and finally telling the world and the White Tower that he is the [i][b][u]DRAGON REBORN!!![/b]

Edit to add:

I would enjoy this series just as much if the roles were reversed. I enjoy books with female leads just as much as I enjoy books with male leads.

Oh, so you want examples? Well, OK then...

Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel Series
Elizabeth Haydon's Symphony of Ages
Several of Dean Koontz books have female stars/co-stars

I'm sure there are others but my library is at home.
229. whoami

That's what I figured...potentially get in to Elaida's office quickly and get out, unless a standoff happened for some reason.

If they made Elaida kneel, it would have interesting implications with the rest of the Aes Sedai. As you said, if they simply snatched her, and left the tower leaderless, it would have interesting implications.

An occupation could only happen if Elaida allowed it or was forced to allow it.
Rob Munnelly
230. RobMRobM
@226 - you mean Leigh is a girl? Really? I'm shocked. Rob

p.s. Just kidding, I just didn't think Lady of Chaos would be funny enough.
Noneo Yourbusiness
231. Longtimefan
Just dropping by with a cheese plate and some crisp pears (all my apples are covered in caramel). I would love to stay and rant but just too busy.

Tiny comment, the ending is awesome (duh) and the action in question is not sexist but the use of the word "bitches" in comments about the awesomeness is. Sadly that is sexism in this world not the fantasy world. Even people using it with the best of intentions are using a word that has a gender specific terminology that can be and is often construed as demeaning. (much like "punks" but I do not have time to get into that one at all)

I suspect that for many people the use of such a word is unneseccary since there are other words that can describe how "uppity" or "unpleasant" or "controling" the people in the fiction have been portrayed.

It is just easy and as demonstrated in the actions in the fiction sometimes the easy way can offend people. It is so nice that most people here do not comment in such a basic way.

The complicated way can offend them also but sometimes if you talk long enough people get so bored they fall asleep before they can be offended.

Thomas Keith
232. insectoid
Sub @177: All right...virtual bubble wrap! ;)

JEJ @178: Wouldn't the gholam just wind up in the engine?

hoping @183 et al: LOL!

Sub @206: Yeah, isn't he supposed to be here rickrolling us?
233. drothgery
I've always had Issues with the end of LoC even though it definitely has well-written Things That Go Boom in spades, mostly because RJ could have eliminated some implausible things and likely have wrapped up two plotlines that dragged on way too long in much less time if Egwene and the SAS had been the late-arriving heavy hitters who pulled Rand out of the fire.

It would have been plausbile -- the dreamwalkers can talk to Egwene in T'A'R, and so can Perrin. Or she could have dispatched an emissary to teach the embassy in Caemlyn how to Travel.

And the end result is
- no somewhat implausible discovery of where Rand is
- it's at least another few months before uber-Asha'man appear
- the Shiado don't get to run away, meaning we don't have the dragged-out situation with them in the next few books, because with Gareth Byrne's army and the Band, they've got the numbers to hold them
- Rand can't get ticked off at Kiruna for brining 9 AS when Egwene brought 300 AS, 500 novices, and 20,000 men and saved his butt
- And the SAS are 3/4 the way to Tar Valon, and have Elaida's embassy as their prisoners. Meaning it's Game Over for Elaida.
Leigh Butler
234. leighdb
Wow, people.

If you want to see an fascinating thought experiment, look no further than this thread, and count how many commenters simply assumed they knew what my reaction must have been and jumped on me for it, and completely ignored what I actually wrote.

What's more, I think I saw maybe one person who specifically pointed this out. In 230+ comments. Who in turn was seemingly ignored, as well.

I love you guys, but damn.
Michael Catapano
235. hoping
not surprising, really
we all have our own agendas and are resistant to direction :)
Rob Munnelly
236. RobMRobM
Leigh - see what happens when you take a month off to celebrate the Saints' victory over the Giants on Sunday. Things spin out of control quickly.

I haven't commented earlier but I have thought about my reaction to this and I don't believe it is flavored by mysogyny. I am curious what would have happened if one of the SAS said that she would kneel but would not swear fealty. Would she be treated as despised, such as the Tower AS, or shipped back to Egwene.

James Jones
237. jamesedjones
234 leighdb

Oh yeah, I do that all the time. Sorry. I actually had to check my posts to make sure I wasn't doing that... well, very much... this time.

Edit: Maybe we just figured that you wouldn't notice while you were gone.

No. Wait. That's at the bottom of your comments. You covered that, too. Ooops.
Sean Arthur
238. wsean
Leigh- well, you know what they say about assuming making an ass out of Yao Ming.

But I'd say this line was the hornet-nest-stirrer:
I got the distinct sense that deny it though they might (and there were those who didn’t even bother to deny it), on some visceral and perhaps unconscious level some fans rejoiced in seeing powerful female characters get brought down a peg or two merely because they were female, and that deeply saddens me.

I'm not going to say you're necessarily wrong, just that putting it that way immediately puts people on the defensive. Thus, many of the comments here.

Also, many people did read enough to try out your gender-swap thought experiment. So... there's that.
239. alreadymadwithLeighDB
We love you too Leigh.
Barry T
240. blindillusion
234 leighdb

What those guys said =>

As to the reversal of gender roles...? Would of been happy to see this scene either way.

At some point Rand had to proclaim his autonomy. If Rand's character had been a woman this would have been just as acceptable.

Afterall, is it Rand's fault the Pattern created him to be something of a -gasp- dictator?

A dictator is a ruler (e.g. absolutist or autocratic) who assumes sole and absolute power with military control but, without hereditary ascension such as an absolute monarch

Isn't this what Rand is trying to become? The World of the Wheel of Time should count itself lucky that Rand is not an evil person.


And Saints over Giants = AWESOME
William Fettes
241. Wolfmage
drothgery @ 233

I disagree with this counter-factual version being better. For a start, it's not clear why Egwene is well positioned to gate in with so many? Not only are her forces insufficiently mobilised at this stage, but she hasn't even consolidated her power as Amyrlin yet. It would be disastrous to make such a big move when the SAS are still just a bunch of factions. Moreover, the Wise Ones are only a hair's breadth away from declaring most Aes Sedai da'tsung after what happened with the kidnapping. So they are hardly likely to go running to their former apprentice who last confessed to them that she is fighting to stop being a puppet.

Also, it's entirely cross purposes with the major theme of Egwene and Rand being more and more mutually incomprehensible and uncharitable to each other - which is the necessary build up before the big Foretold confrontation. So having Rand being indebted to Egwene wouldn't work. Revealing the formidable nature of the Ashaman is the much better pay-off here, with a much more revolutionary impact on the existing balance of power. The end of LoC creates a new multipolar configuration right before the Seanchan come back. SAS to the rescue wouldn't be nearly as cool.

"the Shiado don't get to run away, meaning we don't have the dragged-out situation with them in the next few books"

This is probably the strongest flaw in the existing sequence, because the Shaido are quite annoying. But I don't think your version is necessary to solve the problems with the Shaido and Faile rescue arc. Plus, it afforded Sammael a good opportunity to show how good he was at sowing chaos prior to his demise.

"Rand can't get ticked off at Kiruna for brining 9 AS when Egwene brought 300 AS, 500 novices, and 20,000 men and saved his butt"

Nah, that's way less emotionally satisfying. It's a poor pay-off to have Rand go through all that hardening against Aes Sedai as a captive only to break free and eat humble pie and be forced to play nice with the SAS after he escapes. I think it works way better that he is bit harsh with the SAS embassy to reflect the new balance of power.

"And the SAS are 3/4 the way to Tar Valon, and have Elaida's embassy as their prisoners. Meaning it's Game Over for Elaida."

Their position wouldn't be materially improved. As above, it would be worse. Getting closer to Tar Valon was never the problem. At this stage, Egwene still has to get her war powers and gain allies prior to discovering heartstone and tranforming the habour chain. Having parole over the WT embassy sisters wouldn't do anything more to embarrass Elaida than what happens anyway. The SAS at this stage are still a bunch of fractious, cautious idiots and throwing Rand into the middle of them would turn into a disaster quickly, which is exactly why Egwene didn't want Rand in Salidar in the first place.
242. Silvertip
longtimefan @ 231 : "... the action in question is not sexist but the use of the word "bitches" in comments about the awesomeness is. Sadly that is sexism in this world not the fantasy world. Even people using it with the best of intentions are using a word that has a gender specific terminology that can be and is often construed as demeaning."

Precisely. Thank you!

For myself, "bitch" is just a word I don't use (as a noun anyway, sometimes it's a damn useful verb), not because I'm worried about offending anybody -- the only way to never offend *some*one is to never say anything with substance -- but because, once used, it inescapably brings in all sorts of connotations, correlates, connections, and generalizations that aren't what I'm trying to express. When someone *does* use it, I'm left to assume that either (1) they actually do mean to express those things, in which case I think quite a bit less of the speaker/writer, or (2) they're being sloppy or willfully naive.
John Massey
243. subwoofer
Hi Leigh- fancy meeting you here. Figured you took your book and abandoned us to the hooligans.

Yes, as I have said and agree-Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or, well, I'd quote me, but you know what I said @139. I am not big on reading between the lines. My wife always lambastes me ( er, sorry Hoping, like sheep we need a shepherd) about what I implied when I say it's a nice day, but sometimes a nice day is a nice day. But I don't see gender here, just people getting the smack down they deserve.

And you N.O. Fans- take your victory while you can. We'll see you in the play offs. sulks

Edit- @Master AT218- P.E. still gets me after 20 years. I was going for "Fear of a Black Planet", but I heard that track and I am like- yeah, that's it. Nuthin' like kickin' it Old Skool.

Hoping- pile of pulpy heads? You were on the battle field completing your collection? The goats are okay though, right? IIRC there was this episode of Dirty Jobs, Mike spading sheep. Good times;)

paul Hend
244. tugthis
234. leighdb I think you are being a bit disingenous here. Before a single comment was made on this board, you mentioned a previous argument on some other board about the sexist response.

" it does not excuse a large portion of the fan response, from whom I (and many others) most certainly did perceive a rather nasty vibe of “Yay, those uppity bitches got what’s coming to them!”. I found this not just disturbing but genuinely upsetting, as it was an indication to me of just how much our progress in gender equality is, in many ways, still only skin deep."

Now I guess it is fair to say that you do not think it was sexist or the most important part of the end of the book but it sure looks like an attempt to fan some flames that may never have come to life.

That said the rest of your commentary was thought provoking and on incisive. Was the victory Pyrric? Was the moral high ground lost? What is the state of Rand's sanity? Has the balance of power shifted from the AS to the Dragon? --- all good stuff.

226. Freelancer
I do not expect anyone to admit to being anything socially undesirable. . . . but if you were going to wouldn't you in the anonymity of a message board? But did you in your reading of the comments find a "slap the bitches down" faction? I didn't. . .
William Fettes
245. Wolfmage
tugthis @ 244

I think I get what you're saying here. If you haven't seen evidence of such a 'bitches' faction, I can see how you might think Leigh's approach would be tantamount to the fallacy of poisoning the well, by effectively pre-empting an issue with a criticism of what 'some people' have said or thought, rather than addressing specific perspectives relevant to this community. This fallacy is a pet hate of mine because it is frequently used as a rhetorical device by disingenuous media pundits and op-ed columnists to knock down strawman arguments and avoid substantive debate, before they segue into their particular agenda.

Having said that, I don't think it applies here. I have personally seen the 'bitches' faction in action and it's not pretty. I don't think it really has any foothold here, but even here we can see how heated some of the criticism can get; it's not hard to imagine what a more chauvinist and less restrained person might say about, say, Elayne and Faile. So, I think there is some element of truth to what Leigh is saying about the importance of distinguishing between appreciating the final pay-off in LoC as a gritty catharsis for Rand's capture, and simply revelling in a vicarious anti-woman smack down.

Now, ideally we would have more specifics about who the offending people are and some idea of how representative of the community they are, but IMO it is completely understandable that she can't do that here in light of not wanting to name and shame particular forums or resort to half-remembered Usenet handles.

Instead, Leigh used several important caveats to carefully limit the scope of her remarks. I would say that is entirely proper and shows Leigh is very careful with what she says. But I guess I can also see why some people here, particularly those who are a bit out of sympathy with her feminist critiques and love LoC, might think she was saying something obliquely without really saying it outright - ie. weasel words. I don't think that's the case here, however.
Noneo Yourbusiness
247. Longtimefan
You know this final scene reminds me of a scene from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix where Hermione is relating to Ron and Harry why Cho Chang is all out of sorts from her many layers of feelings.

When Ron says with incredulity "No one can feel that many things at once. They would explode."

Hermione snaps back

"Feel or you will be felt." and then storms out of the room.

Ron was crestfallen as the promise of a groping evaporated.

Wait, is that not how it went? I am confused. What am I even doing here with the Harry Potter. Isn't this the Hufflepuff post? I think I might have fallen through a vacuole and transferred from one magical realm to another. Muggle's milk in a cup!

Uh, Wheel of Time stuff, Wolves are neat and Rand is cool and Taim is icky.
Thomas Keith
248. insectoid
Leigh @234: We love you Leigh!

Longtimefan @247: LOL!! I think you are Disarming up the wrong tree ;)

In case anyone cares, TGS Chapter One just passed TSR#10 in comments...

*minor twitch*
sandi vogel
249. sinfulcashew
197. Delzun
"Why can't I see links to new posts from index?
( )
Newest one there is Part 29.
I tried deleting cookies from browser. It's difficult to find these posts without index page."

Try 'bookmarking' or 'favorites' each new post? It keeps things neat and tidy.
I have this as my home page, changing every new post update.
Choose options under tools and then choose current page (as long as you are on this site)
I use firefox and IE, but ff is the one that is earmarked for tor.

Let us know if this works for you?
sandi vogel
251. sinfulcashew
Thanks to Grubber now I have an easier way to get there too!
stefan warsink
252. grubber

you're welcome cashew, but I only stole this method from the real big shots here ;)
253. Dholton
Hey Leigh,

In support of what you actually wrote, I too remember times in the newsgroup reading some appallingly misogynistic vitriol directed at various female characters in WOT, although not for this particular instance. Certainly not everybody, of course. But it was dismaying to read.

In any case, without getting into the good vs bad of the whole "kneel or be knelt" scene, what struck me about it was the strength of will and character Rand displayed (and continues to display in ACOS)in how restrained his reaction to the AS actually was. In the midst of being half(?)-crazed with the pain and fear of his ordeal, he manages to limit his actions towards the AS to only demanding their fealty, when he could have done much worse. Which isn't to say, as you pointed out, that what did happen was a good thing. I'm just saying he could have lashed out in a much more physically disastrous fashion if he hadn't managed to control himself.
sandi vogel
254. sinfulcashew
Amazon has it at $14!
I bought one online, but didn't notice if it was an 'only online' item.
Of course I won't have it as quick as you guys, but I am okay with that!
I will be able to hold it in my hot little hands and devour it with my eyes. And ...maybe... a little snuzzleing!
(After I remove the cover of course.)
Thomas Keith
255. insectoid
Sinful @247: I like your idea! You'd never be able to lose the most recent post that way. :)

Six more days. *Sigh*

256. PhantomIce
prefacing this with saying I don't really feel that strongly about it either way. consider it more of an intellectual exercise since we have no post today

I've noticed that some people have said re AS getting what they deserve that had they been men they would have said bastards deserved it because it really is about arrogant annoying people getting what they deserve.

I have no problem with that I'm of the opinion that AS don't get half of what they deserve considering their (to me) appalling handling of Randland history in the past 3000 years. And couldn't care less if all AS burned out at or before TG.

But the problem Leigh was referring to, as she kindly reminded all of us was in reader responses saying the "bitches" deserved it since in our world "bitch" is a problematic term that is derogatory to women.

I would posit that saying the "bastards" deserved it had the people in question been men does not actually resolve the problem because the term bastard while used to insult men is actually more derogatory to women since it basically boils down to telling a man that his mother is a whore who doesn't know who his father is.

personnaly, as a woman I would actually be more offended if someone called the child(that I don't have) a bastard than calling me a bitch since I interpret that as meaning "you're a strong woman and that scares me so I will revile you".

And while when saying bitch or bastard or other "derogatory" terms one may not actually be aware or have thought of the historic and derogatory aspect of the term (ie the person chould just be thinking mild form of insult = bitch for women and bastard for men) never raising the issue may lead to acquiescence by silence and that would be backsliding on whatever gains may have been made.

sorry for wall of text - need to amuse myself while IT guy figures out why I can't connect to my office mail from my laptop
257. Freelancer

::takes a bow::

I half suspect that what appears to be folks ignoring my comments @58, is actually a case of them going "Oh, whoops", and then ducking out of the light with a mild blush. Otherwise they are openly admitting that they either didn't read, or misread, your complete comments on the subject. Nobody here wants to cop to that, I'm sure. Better to be silent and suspected of being a fool....

Then again, could some folks not be excused a mild presumption regarding what they expected your response to be, given the avalanche-like rant you sent downhill upon us in your previous post?
Perhaps some didn't feel like wading through another gender lecture, and skimmed to the point that they mistook your reference to past reactions from other people to this chapter, as your own reactions. ::shrug::

And some of these same folks regularly debate the minutia of the subplots, giving those the same attention to detail that they did to your post.
That's fine, someone has to keep Wetlandernw busy.
stefan warsink
258. grubber
@ phantomice: nice exercise in semantics. but how I feel it, it is more about intent than about form here. but that could be my non-english upbringing.

and what would be a good equivalent for bitch?
TW Grace
259. TWGrace
Random thought...

Do we ever find out the names of the AS Rand stilled?
260. PhantomIce
@258 grubber

I agree that it is a matter of intent but unfortunately some words are loaded so you (generic you not you personally) might be conveying something you don't mean to. My reading of Leigh's comments (and I apologize Leigh if I'm putting words in your mouth) was that she was bothered by readers selecting the term bitch because it has misogynist connotations and perhaps her comments could be served as a warning that if you don't want to be a misogynist maybe you shouldn't be using this term.

others may have better suggestions, I've been away from the States for quites some time so my American cursing vocabulary is rusty but asshole or fucker or shithead could be used as some non gender specific insults. oh and the british term wanker is always a good one to lob at men without insulting their mother

apologies for use of cursewords to those who dislike them

@259. TWGrace
I think we find out at least one of their names when much later they are healed by an Asha'man and are so grateful that they swear fealty to Rand. - I could be totally wrong, can't seem to keep details in my head these days, I just reread all this stuff a couple of weeks ago
stefan warsink
261. grubber
@ phantomice: I guess it could've been something like that. now that you say it, I remembered that a canadian friend of mine told me this already :|

so I forgot, and I'll pay attention with my swearing in the future :)
262. birgit
The only Shaido I can remember who left their clan to hang out with the good guys was what's-her-name, Melindhra?

There are other Shaido Maidens with Rand. The Bleakness probably affects some Shaido, too.

Ok, now for a question: what's up with that fight between Nandera and Sulin?

Sulin was the leader of the Maidens before she played servant, then Nandera took over. When Sulin comes back to the Maidens, they probably have to figure out who is the leader now.

If you think the English covers are inaccurate, look at this German cover for the second half of TGH (that is supposed to be a damane):

I am apart from my books, so unable to quote precisely, but when Rand realizes that Alanna didn't simply check his health, he immediately wraps up Verin and Alanna in Air, simultaneously shielding them both. There is no question he knows how to shield a channeler.

He first shields El and Ny when they talk about the OP in the Stone, but later can't remember how he did it. By the time Alanna bonds him, he has remembered how to do it.

And it's been awhile since I read KoD, but in the scene with the Trollocs, weren't the Ashaman using "old hat" techniques until Rand, by talking to himself..err, LT..showed them some truly deadly things?

In that fight LTT takes control of saidin and channels, but Rand has control of the body and has to raise his hands so LTT can channel what he wants.

Do we ever find out the names of the AS Rand stilled?

Irgain, Ronaille, Sashalle
263. alreadymadwithstilledas
TWGrace @259
Sashalle Anderly - Red
Irgain Fatamed - Green(?)
Ronaille - Forgot

birgit @262
It's El and Eg that Rand shields in the Stone of Tear. Nyn was watching the prisoners.
264. cps2195

wow that german cover makes Sweet look like freaking Picasso. I guess that artist never read the books either. I'm sure Leigh would have a few things to say about it. I didn't know that damane translates into stripper in German.
Michael Catapano
265. hoping
Since you opted for the sane and legal approach to your neighbor problem, I'm left with a pile of pulpy heads that worsen by the day. The wife is not happy, but understanding as always. The goats are fine, tho' strictly vegetarian, so of no help. No Mike Rowe antics here. Gotta draw the line somewhere.
Six days
I feel a sguee building in the depths of my being, like a hint of saidin just beyond the shield.

funny and amusing (when not in rant mode)
John Massey
266. subwoofer
@Brigit- Damane! Just goes to show, you can't judge a book by it's cover.

@Free- true- but I think that many people took the gender issue and ran with it. There was stuff discussed that had absolutely nothing to do with WoT. It was Pulpit time. For me, I am dense like a brick and my first several reads the sex stuff flew right over my head. Later, I clued into the 'pillow friend' reference, and thought, whatever, it is incidental and in the book, but not world shaking and changing my impression of RJ and WoT.

For me WoT is a good FANTASY read. Y'know, like Tolkien or Pratchett. Make believe, escapism, etc. If I wanted to get that into something, I'd take English Lit and break down every line of Richard III.

@Hoping- Excellent point!- Six more days 'till TGS drops!!! When we get down to two- I am doing a hat dance, maybe even a jig. Glad to see the wife and kidds are okay;)

Barry T
267. blindillusion

If that's the way the artist envisions damane I'd hate to see the way he/she views da'covale.

Then, all the artist's covers are rather interesting. At least he got the gist of Trollocs....

Also, I'd forgotten that "LTT" had taken over the Power from Rand. Of course, I'm also one who thinks LTT is Rand talking to himself. I think he knows everything he does, but it scares him so he's invented a voice he can attribute this knowledge to.
268. MasterAlThor

*stands up, tapping mic* Mic check. Is this thing on?

Ehem. If I in any way misconstrude what you were saying, then I apologize. I will freely admit that sometimes your rants on feminism put me off, but I like your thought provoking commentary (even when it is a feminist rant).

I may not have been paying as close attention as I should have. I think I need to go back and reread what you said. You probably weren't talking about us at all just some other noobs that had posted somewhere along the way. In which case I stand by my earlier comment. What do they matter? We are all learning to get along here just fine. Yeah there is the occasional dust up(sometime it's your fault, sometime not) but we are all good. You expect that with family and we are the WOT family. And I don't really think anyone has an issue with you being our matron.

Sorry my ADD kicked in. Let me get back to my point.

If (and I can only assume that I wasn't the one person you referred to) I took you out of context or misunderstood what you were getting at, I am sorry.

No excuses.

*steps down from mic*

@244 & 245

Can I just say that your guys post were awsome. Just wanted to say that. Pretty darn cool, well thought out and on point.


My wife is dreading the day. When I told her that the book ws coming out earlier this year she rolled her eyes. I am strating to get the man cave ready. Stocked with all kinds of goodies. Too bad the downstairs toliet is broken or I wouldn't come out of the cave for days. And no I don't mean that the man cave is the basement bathroom. It is the basement itself.

I am on to you guys, I know exactly how you would have taken that had I not made myself clear.
stefan warsink
269. grubber
@ masteralthor: Hear, Hear!

so, does she let you out of the basement often?

edit everybody go over to this page, it will make your day. props to blindillusion for that!

also: LMAO at the german covers. AFAIK, the dutch covers are Sweet's..
Rob Munnelly
270. RobMRobM
From an article on Dragonmount posted yesterday:

Leigh Butler, the long-time “Queen” of the well-known WoT FAQ site, and current WoT blogger on will probably post her review on Friday of this week. (We’ll update this news item on Friday after it gets posted).

Hmmmn. R
stefan warsink
271. grubber
so there's the reason she can't post.

thanks for ruining the surprise Rob ;)
272. J.Dauro
RMRM @270

So, she has been holding out on us. Hmmm, may need to have a talk with Leigh.

But then again, if I could read tGS, would I want to deal with feeding us instead? I guess not.

Work just decided to send me out to fix some stuff. So I don't have Tuesday free. And it is my birthday. I was figuring on not leaving home (after I got my copy.) Now it will be Thursday before I can read. Drat.

** twitch **
stefan warsink
273. grubber
well, she did kinda slip it in there.. in 20/20 hindsight:

"I won’t be putting up Re-read posts, but I will be participating here on with the discussion of the new book ...
Actually, speaking of which, you may, you know, kind of want to check the site pretty soon for something else from me. Nothing too exciting, of course, but you know. In case you’re bored or something. On... oh, say, this Friday."

god, I hate my timezone. can read this no earlier than saturday..
g'night all!
274. cps2195
Leigh is really on my shitlist now. I want to to read TGS Now! I want the WOT world. I want to wrap it all up in my pocket so give it to me Now!

Will it be a spoiler free review? At the very least will the spoilers be clearly marked? I'm curious to hear your opinion but I'm in a self imposed TGS info exile until after I read it. oh and since you'll be done with the book in te next couple of days you can just send it along to me. Just overnight so I'll have it by the weekend. Thanks Leigh your the best.
Noneo Yourbusiness
275. Longtimefan
The German cover is great. I have always loved Boris Vallejo and any art that could be "inspired" by his style.
(childhood story time)
For several years there was a van in the church parking lot that had an airbrushed ice princess in a sled pulled by two polar bears on one side and I dreamed about those exotic fantasy realms all day after mass.
(story over)

I think it is interesting that the shield of air or the power or whatever it is surrounding the "damane" looks like a bunt cake mold.

"the power of cake repels you!"

Maybe she is just a "dancer" in a cake and the cover is an X-ray look into the Birthday Suprise for the warrior on the horse. I can see the horde behind getting ready to yell "Suprise" when she pops out.

Wait, what? there was no Seanchan birthday suprise scene? Maybe I am confused again. Darn this fan fiction crossover confusion. I have to stop reading those "alternate" Wheel of Time sites with such stories as "Turak's Birthday at Falme".

It is morning here so I stopped by Voodoo Doughnuts in Portland,Oregon (shameless city reference) and brought everyone here some tasty pastries.

There are doughnuts covered in mini M&M's called the "Marshall Mathers" and some covered in powdered lemon drink called the "Arnold Palmer" along with some regular doughnuts. Also acouple "Bacon Malple Bars" for those brave enought to try them. Enjoy!

I wonder what local treats other people will bring to the potluck.

Edit: changed defies to repels. Thanks subwoofer, I was trying for the reference but did not remember it clearly.
Matthew Smith
276. blocksmith

I read your comments and completely agreed with your assessment of Leigh's statement...even went back to check. That said, the issue that Leigh raised demanded discussion and, for the most part, the responses were not vitriolic, rather they mostly thoughtful as to how they did or did not interpret the final chapter "kneel or you will be knelt" scene.


Methinks you spent a little too much time examining the German cover. I know, you only get the books for the story, not the pictures.
Sean Banawnie
277. Seanie
Leigh , in response to your response....sometimes people are jerks...simply put. I did not expound much in my original comment seemed to take the whole scene for what it was worth (as did I)---and like you said a cigar is just a cigar sometimes. Some people read more into it and others just react badly I guess....personally I don't use the term 'bitches ' often (never as a plural noun actually--'bitch' even very rarely) ---as someone pointed out earlier , if I do use it, it as a verb ....and that to me is gender others take it differently ?
And while at it, I agree that this is a not a battle without consequences as I alluded to in my original post.
Yes , they rescued Rand but at a high cost. The Shaido were broken but dispersed in tiny bands to cause more chaos.Rand is more suspicious than ever
(due to his capture and torture,not the battle)
Taim has more cred,and influence than ever,which will bite Rand in the ass , which we all know.
The Ashaman, especially the Ashaholes {Taim's special students} are cockier than ever, and will cause havoc eventually. I think even the good ones will cause problems by being undisciplined and will
need to learn a code--not Taim's {'power'}, something like AS's. Rand had a great idea originally ....truth,justice and the Randland way etc. but he never followed up on it and left it to Taim. Not good Rand , no cookie.
Taim is now his ,'rescuer', ---to the Ash, Taim is the leader and hero---Rand is not the 'messiah'...not yet.
And he badly needs the AS, as he knows but doesn't
always like(understandably). Eggy will reunite the tower eventually {hopefully in TGS} and will have a major role in imprisoning the DO.
Overall , I would not call this a Pyrrhic victory but it had its costs (high ones). Not just in lost lives but in consequences . Anyway that's my $.02 .
I hate to ramble,there are many more eloquent than I--I liked it better originally when I talked about Chaos. So Leigh, (I think {I hope} *crosses fingers* ), I get ya --- I just didn't want to get
........long-winded. **breathes**
Noneo Yourbusiness
278. Longtimefan

You do not even want to know how confused my parents were when they realized that the posters in my room were there purely based on artistic merit and not on subconcious adolecent desire.
John Massey
279. subwoofer
@ Longtime- yes, I remember, back in the day, Boris did a pick of Racheal Mclish- woosh. I wanted her to be my friend...

That reminds me of something out of the Exorcist-
"The power of Cake compels you!"

280. MasterAlThor

Since when did you trademark your woof? That's kewlness to the nth degree. Mad props friend.

Wish I could learn that nifty trick.

Edit: Who is Racheal Mclish? Sounds de-lish.
281. MasterAlThor

What in the hell is a "Bacon Maple Bar?" *reaches for one*

They don't have that at the local Tim Hortons. (shameless plug for Canadian friends)
282. MasterAlThor
Wow something just struck me.

Rand singing to himself,


Is there anybody in there?

Just nod if you can here me.

Is there anyone home?
Rob Munnelly
284. RobMRobM
Re food/drink, note that in usual parlance an Arnold Palmer is a mix of ice tea and lemonade -- a commonly served nonalcoholic drink in golf clubhouses. And, yes, I'd like a Bacon Maple Bar as well.

In other things - should we start making TGS predictions? Here are a few to start. Please feel free to weigh in.

Rand and Avi will renew their "relationship" (with Min's approval) and she'll get knocked up.

Eg will discover the BA hunters in the WT by discovering the conflicting oaths sworn by the ferrets. She will be enlisted to help and the BA hunters will be a backbone of efforts to put her in place of Elaida.

Mat will drop the bulk of his camp followers in Camelyn before he heads to Tower of Ghenjie, and Setalle will begin helping Elayne with ter'greals.

Tallanvor will die trying to save Morgase from harm and Tam will save her.

That's enough for now. Go to it. Rob
285. MasterAlThor

How can...when they aren't...damn I forgot about that.

Tallanvor won't die. Neither will Tam or Morgase. But I believe that the Morgase bombshell will drop if Perrin takes his people to Andor.

Speaking of which, where the hell is Perrin going anyway? Now that he has his wife back, what was it that he was supposed to be doing anyway?

I know that he was supposed to get Alli and put the Prophet in his place, but what was the plan after that?

Was he supposed to head back to Andor or Cairhien?

Interesting. He has to pass through Andor to get to Cairhien so the M-bomb should drop then. And won't that be something. A former queen has sworn fealty to a former blacksmith.

Have to really think about the Egwene/BA hunters. I will see what others may say about that before I say anything.
j p
286. sps49
The German cover- it looks like a scene from The Far Snows, which would make it a decent cover. For a different book.
Noneo Yourbusiness
287. Longtimefan
@284 RobMRobM

I second your predictions except for Tallanvor dying. There is a relationship for everyone it seems and Morgase being the mother of Elayne and then the step-mother of Rand would be odd for family dinners.

Plus what would Tam do with all of his sheep? Would she retire to his farm or would they live at one of her estates?

As for the bacon maple bars. they are very "breakfasty" It is a wide maple bar with two strips of bacon across the top. Much like having your pancakes, syrup and bacon all in one bite.

Voodoo Doughnuts originally had Pepto-bismol (tm) and NyQuil (tm) enhanced frosting for the lineup but had to stop because one cannot serve medicine as food. (at least in Oregon)
288. Freelancer

Oh, indeed. I did not suggest that people were responding to Leigh with venom or vitriol. Leigh's commentary very clearly stated that she didn't see any gender-based purpose in how this scene was delivered, while some old reader comments took misogynistic pleasure in the women getting dominated. Then some readers here misapprehended her remarks exactly opposite of her intent, and jumped on a high horse to call her down for precisely what she was saying wasn't there.

Confused? What till I get going!
289. Freelancer

Got to meet Rachel, Cory, Carla and Bev back in '81. Anything else I say about that could be hazardous to my home life.

You all call Rand insane, but I see the crazy building toward critical mass already...
Barry T
290. blindillusion

Rand His nastiness will involve his inability to hurt woman, a la Semirhage. But he will take this inability out on those around him who believe, correctly, that a DF is a DF.

Egwene After speaking with Meidani she will gather the SAS spies around her, which will lead her to the BA hunters, which will in turn lead to her finding out Alviarin heads the BA. This will happen at the end of the book.

Mat He will cover the last few chapters of the novel. These will detail his journey to the ToG and end with him, Thom and Noal entering said Tower and finding Moiraine at the entrance. But this reunion will only be the start of what I believe will be one of the main story arcs in ToM.

Perrin He will have a small part in the Epilogue.

The Forsaken These wonders will be having tea in Shayol Ghul.

Taim I'd imagine he's going to be very strongly involved in Rand's nastiness.

I don't really have anything else.

Except I believe we might see the Ogier make their move. Loial is going to lay down some Leigh Butler like word-fu at the Stump and get Rand some support. Maybe not all the Ogier, but Rand needs everyone he can get.
291. Freelancer

Perrin's tasks were to acquire a solid statement of support from Alliandre, and bring Masema to Rand.

He has no reason not to return to Rand now. I still believe that Galad's forces will run into Perrin before he heads back to Caemlyn, so Galad will be the first to know.

And he is now liege lord to both a former and a current Queen. When they each cede him an area of their current domains, Manetheren will be officially restored.
292. MasterAlThor

I love this line and I think I will be using it again ins 6 days. Might even do it in the store as I am buying my book.

The impulse to cry “YES!” and do a little mental cabbage-patching upon reading it is more than understandable.
293. MasterAlThor

Whom are these ladies?

Got to meet Rachel, Cory, Carla and Bev back in '81. Anything else I say about that could be hazardous to my home life.

not trying to get you in trouble man. I know how it is *peeks over sholder*. Just trying to keep up.
Mark Stokes
294. Mark_S

Rand's next sword fight doesn't go as he planned

Cat crosses the courtyard turns smoothly into Heron in the rushes, but its unfortunately followed by Duck get caught in old fishing line and Man swarmed by angry hornets.
295. MasterAlThor

You believe like I do that Perrin will head for Camelyn. I don't think that Galad will run into them first, no real sense of that or forshadowing. What is more likely is that Mat will run into Perrin, they haven't seen each other since the Stone.
Rob Munnelly
296. RobMRobM
@291 - Free, recall he yielded rights to re-stablish Manetheren in the deal with the Seanchan. He's heading more towards the Broken Crown longterm (per Min's vision in EOTW).

So... are they lady wrestlers or body builders or roller derby participants? Inquiring minds, etc.
297. J.Dauro
Master Al'Thor

I think Perrin will meet the Whitecloaks, so that Berelain meets Galad, her Man in White.
Sydo Zandstra
298. Fiddler
I don't think Perrin will ever get to move back to Cairhien.

The way most armies have been moving around made me wonder about where the biggest battles are going to take place, and I got this Looney Theory that it's going to be in the Ghealdan/Altara/Amadicia area.

Consider the forces in or near that area:
- Borderland armies are close
- Seanchan armies are close
- Perrin's forces are in the area
- The Band of the Red Hand will be reunited soon, in Murandy
- Rand has forces in Illian and Tear; IIRC, the Legion of the Dragon is in Illian
- Andoran armies could be there soon enough, even without Elayne Gating them in
- And there's Galad, now leading the Whitecloaks

And for the Other Team:
- Taim's power base is also near. Although Taim and his forces could travel anywhere.

I know, there is the option of using Gateways for the armies, but you just can't move armies through them to the right spot and expect them to be battle ready right away. Besides, that is also going to wear out your strongest channelers, and I don't think RJ would aim for that. Besides, most of those armies don't have channelers to Gate them to another place. And if the Seanchan armies are going to be of any use in Tarmon Gaidon, it'd better be there ;).

Most of these armies have been floating towards that area in the last few books, and I suspect RJ did that for a reason. My bet is that in that area there are a few WayGates that haven't been closed down, and they'll be spilling Trollocs and Myrddraal soon. IIRC, in that same area, there were the scenes where multiple characters saw the statue parts of a Queen from long ago, so there are probably WayGates.

Rand did send some of the Aiel clans to Arad Doman, and with good reason. Considering how fast Aiel armies can travel, they could be a back-up for Lan's Golden Crane army to plug Tarwin's Gap. There are also the remaining Aiel Clans in Andor and Cairhien, which could be sent either North or South from where they are now.

Note that this is a Looney Theory, based only on how the armies have been moving around. ;)
299. MasterAlThor

I forgot about that. Good possibility.
300. MasterAlThor
I got 300

Going for 400
Sydo Zandstra
301. Fiddler

And he is now liege lord to both a former and a current Queen. When they each cede him an area of their current domains, Manetheren will be officially restored.

Except that Perrin swore not to go through with the Manetheren thing, in his dealings with the Seanchean commander (Tywin?), in order to seal their pact against the Shaido.

Even if it weren't his intention to reinstate Manetheren, he wouldn't go against that.
Roger Powell
302. forkroot
ROFL! Thanks for brightening my day as I sneak a look at the reread comments while working here at the customer site.

In other news.. this is a formal plea for sympathy. I've been on the road each week, and will be back on the road next Tuesday. The problem is that I've ordered TGS from Amazon ... they are pretty good about getting the book out to arrive on the release date. So I'm going going to be calling home and hearing from my wife that the book is there....argh!
Sean Arthur
303. wsean
Sulin was the leader of the Maidens before she played servant, then Nandera took over. When Sulin comes back to the Maidens, they probably have to figure out who is the leader now.

Well sure, that part we figured out. The question is, why does the loser of the fight (Nandera) keep leadership of the Maidens? It seems likely to be some weird ji'e'toh thing, but "weird ji'e'toh thing" by itself is not a very satisfying answer.

Ooh, we're doing predictions now? Ok, just in case Asmodean's killer is revealed in this one... it was Graendal!
Roger Powell
304. forkroot
$(perl -e 'print "RobM" x 2')@284
Hmmm, the problem with predictions in this thread is that those of us who have bought the prologue, read Chapter 1, and listened to Chapter 2 now have a little more knowledge that could affect predictions.

Don't want to be spoilerish here.

So bearing that in mind, I have decided to make predictions on things that won't happen in TGS (or the next two volumes.)

Ten Things that Won't Happen

1) Perrin and Co. detour through Baerlon where Morgase falls hopelessly in love with Mutch the stablehand.

2) Rand allows Cadsuane to torture Semirhage for information. Conventional torture fails. Fortunately an MP3 player from an age long past is unearthed. After being strapped down and forced to listen to It's a Small World for several days, Semirhage breaks.

3) The Dark One grants Narg a new body and sets him out on an evil errand in Cairhien. Curiously, a visit to Harid Fel's unused office awakens a long-held educational interest, and Narg forgets all about his mission as he settles in to the life of a scholar.

4) Brandon Sanderson steals Samadai's really cool mini-story and we see an appearance of Sharan channeling males at TG.

5) Basel Gill is outed as gay. No one cares.

6) While in a desperate fight, surrounded by Trollocs and Myrddraal, Lan suddenly realizes that he can burn pewter. With his strengh enhanced, he survives and begins to search the Borderlands for atium.

7) After heading north to participate in the final battle, Borderland farmer Renald Fanwar is unable to find the fighting. He returns to his farm having purchased a T-Shirt that says "Tarmon Gai'don - you had to be there!".

8) Emond's Field attempts to cash in on Rand et al's fame. Big billboards touting "See the childhood home of the Dragon Reborn" compete with others advertising the "Ta'veren Tavern" in a pitched battle for tourist dollars.

9) Outraged commenters crash when it is determined that Brandon Sanderson has written Bela out of the script.

10) And finally... at the climax of Tarmon Gai'don Rand invokes an obscure clause of Creation that allows the contest to be turned into a game of pocket billiards against the Dark One -- which Rand wins handily. (Anyone get this reference?)
John Massey
305. subwoofer
@Master AT- They are female body builders. Rachel was the first female Ms. O. This was before females got carried away with their physiques and started looking like guys. They more so looked like Ms. USA fitness competitors. Rachel did a calendar with Boris back in the day... it still stands the test of time.

306. Freelancer
Rachel McLish, Cory Everson, Carla Dunlap, and Bev Francis.

Rachel had the best Farah-hair, Cory the clearest skin, Carla the best overall aesthetic to my eyes, and Bev the most mass (by a long shot!).

Female bodybuilders from the olden days.

Want to know more, Google them. (I did NOT say goggle them).


#2 - Substitute This is the Song that Never Ends
#5 - Run, Forrest, run.
#6 - Lan == Kelsier? Hmmm.
#10 - ::nods::
Ron Garrison
307. Man-0-Manetheran
Defending the Bastards

OK, I just wanna say how unfair it is to refer to bad guys as "bastards." A bastard is the slur given to "a person born of unmarried parents; an illegitimate child."

In what universe is it the child's fault he/she was born of unmarried parents? Why should he be cursed? Hasn't the poor bastard got enough problems?
Tasneem Gould
308. Latecomer
@ Forkroot - Well done! Is 10 from the Bogus journey stories?

@man o manetheran - in some cultures it is believed that your incarnation/ birth is a direct result of your good or bad actions in a previous birth. So if you have been cursed to be born a bastard (in a very strict society) then you must have been a horrible person indeed in your past life - and therefore, you deserve it.


Things that won't happen:

Rand and Elayne are playing happy couples/ parents on the Jerry Springer show when Min and Aviendha come along to scream at them and it all turns into a girly catfight.
Tasneem Gould
309. Latecomer
Another 'Things that won't happen" right away:

The Ogier coming along to join the good guys. You know how darn slow they are! Also, when hope is lost etc... here come the Ogier to save the day!

Things that MIGHT happen

Semirhage - will be tortured by Cadsuane and Soralia (I can't spell) who sends for figs and mice, and Semi breaks down and tells all... (well I can dream!)

Things that WILL happen

Rand & Avi make sweet sweet... babies

The Seanchan attach the White Tower (this has been in the coming for several books now). The attack is nearly successful, but the rebel armies come to the rescue and win the day. The Aes Sedia kiss and make up. Elaida has been collared and taken by the Seanchan and Egewene becomes the new Amrylin Seat.
Michael Catapano
310. hoping
I enjoyed it
The Hawaiian vacation has rejuvenated you
311. Zinalu
to mark_s@294

I loved that! Duck gets caught in old fishing line! I literally laughed out loud! First time in a long time, thanks!
Rich Gold
312. richg25
William Tecumseh Sherman

War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.
Thomas Keith
313. insectoid
Sub @266 re: six days: I said it first ;)

I'm actually trying to finish my re-read in time (skipped WH and am gonna fly through CoT and KoD).

MasterAlThor @268: Sounds like a great place to read! Wish we had one of those.

RobM² @270: Oh oh...that means Leigh's been reading TGS in secret! Does this mean she has toh to us?

MasterAlThor @282: Just a little pinprick. ;)

Fiddler @301: The Seanchan commander's name is Tylee Kirghan, I think.

Forkroot @304: BAHAHAHAHAHA *has to pick self off floor*


314. alreadymadwithlostarmies
Fiddler @298
All things are possible in the Light, of course. However these massively huge armies congregating so far from Shayol Ghul is, methinks, more a testament to the success of letting the Lord of Chaos rule.
Roger Powell
315. forkroot
Rather than skip WH, skip most of it but re-read the cleansing chapter - MOA for sure. Then skip COT completely!

My .02
Rob Munnelly
316. RobMRobM
Fork - well done. Narg and Bela predictions are always welcome.

@306. Cory Everson (sigh). That's one name from that group I recall.

@309 - Elaida collared could definitely happen. Seanchan will attack using their Fists of Heaven, elite troops that attack via Raken. Keep in mind Elaida is keeping her rooms at the top of the highest tower. Boom - little Laida starts pleasing her sul'dam to get treats.

313/14 - Need to read Under a Veil and What the Aelfinn said, as well as the Choeden Kal chapter from WH; and the Egwene and Black Ajah chapters from CoT, before going all out on the wonderful KoD.
stefan warsink
317. grubber
insectoid @ 313: yes. yes she does. she will write the best spoiler-free review to meet it.
Thomas Keith
319. insectoid
Fork @315: Well, I would, except that I already have about 15 times :) I'm reading CoT because I don't remember much from it except about Egwene.

RobM² @316: I made a point of reading all the Mat chapters in that book, so, yeah.
John Massey
320. subwoofer
@forkroot- The MP3 idea is good, but I almost went stir crazy when in a place I used to work, back in the day, had a jukebox and people would play "Do the Bart Dance" over and over. If you ever want to stick a spoon in your head, that'll do it. Or somebody could drop Celine Dion. I remember when she was really charting it, we were taking shots every time her wailing came across the radio. Got very drunk that week.

Instead of plowing through the series, I am powering Mistborn to get a feel for BS. It has an interesting feel to it. There is a young female "Rand" in it but so far the caste system jumps out at me. I do like the metal system though. Interesting premise there.

Gonna work my way through KoD and then boo-yah TGS hits, and I take over the world.

I am still rooting for Silent Bob to take out Gawyn with a sock full of quarters.

321. Freelancer

I can't quite see the young mistborn lass as a Rand type, though I know what you mean. Actually, I can't really draw a solid analogy between any of the main characters of the two series. The closest I get, and it isn't close, is Sazed/Thom. I think that speaks very well of Brandon, given he had already been into WoT for some time before he began writing fantasy himself. He didn't suck any of the strong WoT characterizations into his own work, or else adjusted them well enough to mask it entirely, and either one shows that he is very strong in character development.

Yes, the magic system is among the best I've ever read. If I had to pick one it would be Pewter.
Roger Powell
322. forkroot
Oooh - the "Bart Dance" ... ouch. The worst part to that stuff is you go home and still hear it in your head. There is a cure... but it's worse than the disease.

I agree with Freelancer that the Mistborn magic system is as good as any I've seen in fantasy. I really enjoyed the Mistborn trilogy while I was on vacation. It removed any lingering doubts about Sanderson's talent level ... and I was already convinced he had the right attitude and approach to taking on WoT.
John Massey
323. subwoofer
The similarities I get is that both Rand and Vin are kids, coming from humble backgrounds thrust into roles that are larger than themselves. They both come into their latent powers and are unaware of how powerful they really are. I am still in the infancy of Mistborn so we shall see how that plays out but that is my initial impression. BS does have the ability to tell a good story though. I am getting "Pulled" in. The rest is Duck Soup.

I'd go for Iron or Steel myself. Much potential there. To some degree I have always been Pushing/Pulling them.

Alice Arneson
324. Wetlandernw
Longtimefan@231 - ... but sometimes if you talk long enough people get so bored they fall asleep before they can be offended.. LOL!! That's a great excuse for us wall'o'texters. ;)

Re: phantomice, grubber & others on bitches/bastards... The discussion reminds me of a line from my favorite rant: "I just wish you kids would be a little more rigorous in your name-calling."

German covers... Wow! Those are awful! I hope the translations are better.

Pathetic, as posts on here go, I know, but y'all answered all the good questions already, and I can't really think of anything profound to say. Hi, everyone!
Hurin Smells
325. HurinSmells
Fork@304 - that was awesome! I almost sprayed coffee all over my monitor when you said "Lan suddenly realizes that he can burn pewter". LMAO!

free, fork, sub - I finished my WoT re-read 2 weeks early so I could fit in Mistborn 3 before tGS. I figured it was the best way to get up to date with WoT again and still be comfortable with the change of narrator. Unfortunately all I think I've done is tarnished Mistborn 3 for myself. I really loved 1 & 2, but WoT is cleary on a different level, so I really have to Push myself (see what i did there) to keep turning the pages of Hero of Ages. Not that it's a bad book or anything, it just doesn't have the same impact after reading 11 WoT books back to back.

Oh and I think I'd choose to be a Coinshot over a Thug. Unless of course I could be Tineye/Thug (aka Durzo Blint)
326. Planeswalker
Helloooooo!!!! wweeeeee!!!

Sorry, just to get that out. It's noontime here and I just got in the office. The reason? Last night from 8pm to 8am - reading TGS! =)

Man... was I so shocked to see a copy here in my country. And so early! But damn, did I get it without ever hesitating! Gotta read it again this weekend... hey guys, you'll love the book. i can still sense lotsa RJ in there, parts/chunks of it. But different also in a way like someone else was narrating it - must be Brandon. Anyways, hope you enjoy your copies too... can't wait to discuss so many things about it! =) bye now, gotta work!
Roger Powell
327. forkroot
Planeswalker - you are killing me! Argh!

*twitch* *twitch*
328. Freelancer
That's the fourth poster in various places claiming to already have TGS. Always with a red login. Anyone else for a grain (truckload) of salt?


Well, but see, here's the thing (Elend imitation). In epic fantasy, the Hero is almost always an orphaned kid from an exceedingly humble background (Frodo, Pug, Vin, Rand, etc). An exception is Drizzdt, but in place of orphaned status is his inability to be ruthless and cruel, making him a complete misfit in his own home, which leads to him being driven out, a virtual orphan. Another exception is Ender, but again, being a third as well as a super-genius puts him in the unsupported loner role.

My point being that they all share a large bit of that aspect. Rand at least has a stable home life in a comfortable community and a decent childhood, loss of mother notwithstanding. Vin is a street rat whose greatest skill is being not worth noticing, and her most significant life lesson initially is to never trust anyone.
Maiane Bakroeva
329. Isilel
Well, gotta get out my (painfully serious and earnest) predictions before it is too late. In no particular order:

1. Lelaine is Sheriam's torturer. She is evilly ambitious, but not Black and neither is Sheriam.

2. Lelaine will somehow try to cause Egwene's execution - maybe via a fake rescue attempt. That's how Egwene's Dream of being on the block and an ax descending will come to pass. "Somebody running to save her" will be Siuan and Gawyn.

3. Egwene will be contacted by the BA hunters and become one of them. She will bring in Beonin, Silviana, Nicola and Areina. She will provide the essential clue about Alviarin.

4. Siuan will demand an open trial, where she will explain herself and admit her lies about Logain.
Her public divulging of the fate of Tamra and her searchers and of the mass murder of lucky men and boys by the BA after the Aiel War will be used by Egwene's faction and BA hunters to start the open BA purge via mass re-swearing of the First Oath.

5. Egwene will fight Mesaana (with assistance) and possibly kill her.

6. Egwene will be collared again and find the way to beat the a'dam.
It is even possible that she will let herself be collared on purpose in order to reach Tuon and convince her of the error of her ways. Only the proof that a'dam can be beaten will cause Seanchan to reconsider their stance on capturing and enslaving channelers.

7. Alanna will die and precipitate Rand into the broken-bond craziness and the "blind beggar" mode.

8. Elza Penfell will kill Cadsuane and free Semirage.

9. Something unpleasant, but ultimately non-fatal will happen to Min.

10. Davram Bashere and/or his wife Deira is going to be revealed as a DF. Tenobia will die.

11. Perrin's posse will meet Galad's and Morgase will have to reveal herself to prevent the bloody clash.

12. Galad will "do the right thing" and hang his friends and supporters Bornhald jr. and Byar for abandoning civilists to the Trollocs.

13. Berelein will finally fall for Galad and give up her pursuit of Perrin for good.

14. Shaido WOs will rehabilitate themselves slightly by confounding their sul'dam via Aiel approach to torture.

15. Demandred is in Shara and managed to become their leader. He has trained their conveniently labelled and even more conveniently ignorant male channelers and killed those female channelers who opposed him. He thus has armies that can use gateways and legions of channelers.

16. Demandred will attack the Aiel who remained in the Waste - i.e. most civilists and kill the majority of them. Hence "the remnant of the remnant"

May also be relegated to TToM:

17.We will find out that the Asha'man who have channeled tainted saidin can still go mad and that killing their bonded wives/sweethearts can precipitate it.

18.We will find out that the bondée of a saidin bond is affected the same way as a Warder when their bonder dies and that unpleasant stuff will happen to them if the bonder goes mad.

19. Taim will be revealed as a DF and a new Forsaken (as per extra chairs at Forsaken Social in KoD) and will use these facts to rend loyalist Asha'man apart.

20.He will also take non-DF Asha'man families hostage and blackmail the men into commiting acts of random destruction in the name of keeping their families from being killed.

21.He will be revealed as Ishy's student of long standing (10+ years) and a substantial number of his DF Asha'man will be revealed as his own students of long standing - years before Rand's amnesty.

22.They are the "missing" male sparkers of the last decade - only 6 were found as opposed to dozens that are found normally, and the DFs who could be taught.

23. Ishy has also converted and trained some of the Aiel male sparkers who supposedly fight until death in the Blight.
330. Planeswalker
@Forkroot -
I'm sorry, believe me, I was shocked too. I already had a pre-order in our local bookstore here, but mentioned it will be 1-2 weeks (including shipping) since the release. So I was already expecting a November read for TGS for me. I'm glad though I found one early coz I'll be happy to butt in with you guys, coz I know for sure there will be a lot of discussion here for the book (especially now that Leigh will be taking a break). One more week (compared to the 4-year wait), you'll have one too.=) Really Forkroot, I was late to realize I might cause these *twitching* to you guys. So I'm really sorry, I'll stay quiet for now, til next week.

@Freelancer -
'grain of salt' eh? C'mon now, you're breakin my heart. =) I think I got this copy along with those TGS that has the RJ signature with it in the title page. And I bought it with a hefty $28. I ain't screwin around. I can even tell you now what happened in TGS (and I'm really really itching to), but I think everyone will hate me for it, so I'll wait...
331. Planeswalker

Arrrggggghhh, now you're really tempting me...
*Zip* *Zip* i'm zippin it!!!
James Jones
332. jamesedjones
329 Isilel

hmmm... I think you're falling into the trap Leigh described in LOC reread 28. Most of your favorite characters do the right thing - and get exactly the result you want. We all know RJ doesn't work that way. *sigh*

Personally, I loved Dominic's prediction for the WT from 13D. He 'suggested' that the seanchan forces will burn TV, and Egwene will gain her position by freeing the captured AS and organizing the effort to Gate them all (rebels and tower AS) to safety.

Edit: So Elaida's foretelling would refer to the WT as AS, not the physical structure (until after the seanchan leave the field of battle).
333. birgit
A former queen has sworn fealty to a former blacksmith.

Who leads a rebellion in a region that officially belongs to her kingdom. What will El do when she finds out about that?

The German cover- it looks like a scene from The Far Snows, which would make it a decent cover. For a different book.

Do damane learn to ignore cold?
Rob Munnelly
334. RobMRobM
@330-31 - I believe you but give us a touch of proof - what is the title for chapter three? If it proves out, we'll know. Otherwise, reasonable doubts will remain. Rob
stefan warsink
335. grubber
I know an even better thing: pics or it didn't happen!

make a picture of you holding the book with the newspaper of today and upload it here :)

and free @ 328: didn't ender have quite a good relationship with his sister? he becomes a loner when in training, but that's not until later.. could be wrong, long time ago..
Rob Trotter
336. shadar
I was thinking today - what if Egwene is *wrong* about the Seanchan.

It's one of the first "true" dreams she's ever had - and when does she have it? Just as Halima walks back into her tent.
What if the raven really is the shadow?
John Massey
337. subwoofer
On the fifth day left my true love gave to me- a copy of TGS... in a perfect world. For all those- yes you Planeswalker- that 'have' the book already grrrrrrrrr. I bite and I may have rabies.

@ Free- agreed, though Vin does have a brother and a dad who are still alive. Although I personally would not want to associate with such family. Suffice it to say, most heroes do have the loner aspect- then go to the I'm a hero, why me? end of things. Vin seems to be picking up the power very fast and doing stuff that has taken months for others to learn, a la Rand. All I am saying is that there are parallels and that as such, BS has a good track record and will do the job well.

Barry T
338. blindillusion

Fork - well done. Narg and Bela predictions are always welcome.

Interesting you say that because everyone knows Bela and Narg are in the process of creating a breed of Centaur Trollocs in their scheme to take over the World.
Kev Hamm
339. cavynmaicl
@337 Subwoofer - Vin does pick things up fast. What's better is that the explanation for why she picks them up fast is revealed in a timely manner. I had picked up the Mistborn books when I had finally bothered to find out who had inherited the WoT writing duties, and then found out about this re-read just after I finished the series.

The biggest compliment I can think of is that even when the books were done, I could see stories that easily could be told next. But they don't have to be, unlike the WoT where, if they didn't write the finish, dammit, I would. And no one wants that.

Don't bite. But a well offered bottle of wine to the manager of the local B&N has been known to cause shipping boxes to mysteriously spring leaks in the back room. Not that I'd know anything about …

Merlot. Go with a merlot.
340. Planeswalker
Ok. Proof?

Let me warn you guys about the SPOILERS, ok?,49099.180.html

This is a forum for the TGS spoilers, I posted some spoilers there (Glad to see, I'm not the only one who has the book. It seemed sad knowing I don't have anyone to talk to about TGS since i'm too early.) But be warned of spoilers, ok?

Others? I prefer you wait on Tuesday. It's worth it, I promise. =)

Let me leave you a spoiler note of TGS:
To forkroot@304, you'll be glad to know about #9.
Matthew Smith
341. blocksmith

I am totally on board with #2. I went to DW a couple of years ago and went on that ride with my youngest. Before it was over, I was searching for blocks to build a wall around myself. Michael Bolton would work equally well, though take slightly longer. Or for maximum effect, and thus leaving Semirhage a drooling lump of goo, you could make her watch Leage of Extraordinary Gentlemen....once.

I'm not sure if I get 10, but could it be a reference to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?


Your post has officially moved my level of anticipation to DEFCON 1...I am in the bunker, storing critical supplies, and making sure I have good reading light, because delivery is imminent.
John Massey
342. subwoofer
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Bribery... yes, it does have a ring to it, especially for those of us with malleable morals. If only the local bookstore manager had my flexible ethics.

Yes- my cave as such is my house to be. Get possession of it on the 27th. Coincidence? I think not. The movers are not coming until the 30th. Wife is staying with the furniture, so it's gonna be me, an air mattress and the book for a bit, quiet time. It will be GREAT!

I have held out for this long, will power, don't fail me now!

James Jones
343. jamesedjones
340 Planeswalker

I have tasted the spoilers... and they are sweet.

But mostly tangy, kinda like honey-mustard.
Rich Gold
344. richg25
strolling thru the comments, I see that the ole "is LTT real" thing is being commented on again. I have one question - what does this word "real" mean? I've read Leigh's thoughts about how it might not be real - might be something "constructed", but I'm not clear how this is different than "real" unless we define "real" and how it applies in this case.
345. Freelancer

Yes, Valentine was Ender's only solace in the world, until at age 5 they were separated for nearly seven years, then one visit and two more years.


Vin interacts with her male parental unit one time, and dude gets whacked. Brother teaches her to trust noone and nothing, then disappears. (yes, he had her back, but she didn't know that for a long time) Mom murders baby sister, and instigates Vin's hemalurgic "block". Ok, better off alone in her case...
Ron Garrison
346. Man-0-Manetheran
Anyone posting TGS spoilers here should be balefired! (Which has the added advantage of deleting the post before it is posted!)
347. Stromgard
Leigh... i don't think that liking that the Aes Sedai kneel for Rand is gender-motivated or something.

I mean, LOOK at the Aes Sedai. All that makes an Aes Sedai an Aes Sedai is four things:

1. Being female.

2. Born with the possibility to learn magic AND found before you were 16 or something (not sure about what the age limit used to be, and from the evidence of Nicola and Nynaeve, both taken in before Egwene changed the rules, it can be adjustable, but if you were too old, you simply would never be allowed).

3. Have enough discipline and inner strength to do the tests.

4. Take the three oaths.

That's it. Except for the qualities under point 3, the Aes Sedai haven't a single personality trait that makes them better, wiser, smarter or see clearer than "normal" humans.

So. What do we know about the Aes Sedai?

The Red Ajah hate all men.

The White Ajah are so focused on logic and reason that they can't understand how real people work, think and are motivated.

The Brown Ajah are so focused on history and written knowledge that they seem almost to be suffering from a lack of understanding the reality you face with your senses.

The Blue Ajah are scheming, manipulative and have a tendency to see "people" as "resources" or "tools".

The Green Ajah are, well, careless, death-defying berserkers comes to mind. I have a feeling that the only thing that stops them from running around looking for something to fight is the possibility for a nice tumble in the hay with the warders. (Even Elayne is like that!)

The Yellow Ajah are sure they know everything there is to know (granted, about healing, but that attitude seem to spill over).

In addition to all that (can't find any fault with the Grey Ajah in general) the Aes Sedai

are making decisions motivated by fear

only believes rumors and reports the WANT to believe

are bigots against cultures outside their influence (Sea Folk, Aiel)

are bigots against non-Aes Sedai

are making decisions motivated by envy, spite, hatred or petty vindictiveness against other Sisters

try to manipulate events in the world to further their own personal schemes

try to manipulate Aes Sedai policy to further thier own personal schemes

try to get things their way just because they can

are not opposed to arrange assassination when it suits them

are not above disliking or using violence against Sisters of other Ajahs

can easily be subject to greed, vanity, gluttony or sex addiction

are just as likely to be a Darkfriend as anyone else, and maybe more.

Oh... and as icing on the cake, the INVENTED the Game of Houses!!!

Now, what are the Aes sedai trying to do?

1. Control the doings of the nations.

2. Control the decisions the Dragon Reborn makes.

And why are they trying to do that?

1. Because they think it's their moral right.

2. Because they think they are wiser and smarter than everyone else.

3. Because they see themselves as infallible.

Seriously, hello?

With all that's happened, and all that's happening, how the BLIGHT can the Sisters claim moral, intellectual or psycologial superiority versus normal men and women?

They seriously, and I mean SERIOUSLY, need to be humbled and see themselves as they are, not as they THINK they are, or they are gonna screw up the world so much that the Last Battle lost before it begins.

The Sisters that swear to Rand are as of this moment beginning to learn something that Egwene, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Siuan and Leane already knows (and are much much better Aes Sedai for knowing it):

You can LEARN THINGS from Non-Aes Sedai, they are sometimes wiser, smarter, more perceptive or stronger than you!

And the learning don't make you smaller, but greater!

So: this marks the beginning of Aes Sedai getting themselves in perspective against the larger picture, and they will more strongly contribute to the forces of good because of it.

(Which, incidentally, is Elaida's greatest flaw, lack of perspective. I mean, she knows the Last Battle is coming and she builds a flaming PALACE??)

Also, despite the Chaos in this book, Rand actually begins relationships with sisters that he can trust and that are loyal to him to the point of standing up to Cadsuane (and in one case, being seconds from murdering her).

And I can't help but feeling that the loyalty they show him makes it easier for him to trust in Cadsuane and Nynaeve (and Cadsuane's followers) later.

Also, he doesn't get upset when sisters that swore the oath serve him after their own mind, either, so there is some trust, which wouldn't have been there if not for the oath.

So yes, I think this is a decisive point in the series, since it (and the things Egwene does near the border of Andor, what Logain does near the Black Tower and the task Seaine and Pevara and the other sitters start doing (all things in TPOD)) gives Aes Sedai perspective instead of stubborn pride, which will help them help the Light win.

And above all, they make Rand keep Aes Sedai near him long enough to actually form bonds of loyalty and trust beyond the oath (which leaves a lot of room for interpretation, something Sisters do very well) with at least some Aes Sedai, which is good, since he NEED them, he just don't need them as puppeteers.
348. Stromgard
Pardon my spelling errors.
James Jones
349. jamesedjones
347 Stromgard

GREAT analysis. I think you summed up everything that I've been feeling, and all of the weight those feelings are placing upon the SGs to pull them down since becoming AS.
Barry T
350. blindillusion

I'd agree with JEJ, though some of your observations are just a little off, namely that the RA hates all men.

Other than that, yes, the AS/WT needs to learn its new place in the world that's being formed with the advent of Rand and the coming LB.

And blah...I've been on the spoiler pages over at Dragonmount. Talk about a mistake. Now I really, really need to get my hands on the new book!!

To all who haven't been there, I'd recommend not going. It's enough to spike your need into overdrive.

And what's that? 3 and 1/2 days and a wake-up? AWESOME
Sam Mickel
351. Samadai
I hate all of you that are in time zones east of Oregon because you will get the book before me.
353. Rand al'Todd
Way back @ 140 I made a comment which got no response at the time, so I will rephrase and ask again now that other topics have cooled down:

Re Tower Aes Sedai and SAS:
What is either group's PLAN of how to win TG?
Both sides want to be the ones to manipulate and control Rand, but has either side has ever voiced an actual PLAN or idea on how Rand can be used to win?
Sam Mickel
354. Samadai
Rand alTodd@353

No, no one group has mentioned any plan on how to use Rand, other than Elaidas vague "keep him locked up until tLB."
James Jones
355. jamesedjones
350 blindillusion
Other than that, yes, the AS/WT needs to learn its new place in the world that's being formed with the advent of Rand and the coming LB.
Yes, the coming of Leigh Butler was a great a momentous begining in the WOT world. :P
Kristina Blake
357. kab1
Freelancer @162- you are awesome.
358. geekanerd
I'm sure there are those who'll take sexist connotations from the Aes Sedai swearing to Rand in the aftermath of Dumai's Wells. There's nothing any of us can do about that, even if we were motivated to do so.

Yet, the act itself was warranted, and if we, as readers, exulted in Rand regaining some control over those who tormented him, I think we earned that right by that point in the book.

On that same note, had it been a woman who had been subjugated to the torture Rand had been at the hands of men, would the feeling of her escape be the same? I think so. But we also rest heavily on the archetype that a female in distress seldom rescues herself, but relies on others to rescue her. Though, by all intents and purposes, Rand had no little help in escaping, even if the last push out of the box was on his will alone. In any case, I think if the Dragon had been a woman, our reaction to her escape and her actions afterwords would have essentially have been the same as most of us seem to feel about Rand's.

Perhaps those feelings would even have been stronger. Would the reader cheer harder for a 'weak' woman escaping against men and forcing oaths out of them than we do a 'strong' man breaking his chains against women? Either way, I think by and large our response to Rand bringing the Aes Sedai to their knees has everything to do with status and the abuse of power, and little to nothing to do with gender.
Alice Arneson
359. Wetlandernw
Freelancer @ 328 - Salt... yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. Possible, but...

Planeswalker I'll take jamesedjones's or blindillusion's word for it if they've been to your "spoiler page" and confirmed you're there. However, regarding discussion, Tor has promised us a separate forum for discussion of The Gathering Storm, so that we can kindly refrain from posting spoilers on this one. It is probably inevitable that when Leigh starts posting again, the events of GS will affect the commentary and subsequent discussion, but we're all in good faith going to try to keep it to a minimum. There are some folks here who won't get a chance to read it for a couple of weeks or months, and since they are our friends/family, we're going to be nice.

Isilel @ 329 - Interesting.... I like most of them, although not #10. :) A lot of those should prove out in GS, too, so it will be cool to see. I'm not going to attempt much beyond the small one I posted over on Chapter 2, but I love it when people make serious predictions! (Mine was about the Seanchan attack and how it would be a key to Egwene taking charge.)
360. MasterAlThor
So I had Chinese for lunch today. Guess what my fortune cookie told me.

Your dearest wish will come true.

Aaaaaawwwwwwww yeaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I get a WOT WOT WOT

Lol. I am wishing that a copy of TGS shows up in my mailbox today.

Otherwise I will never believe in fortune cookies again.

But if it works.....guess who's getting Chinese for lunch/dinner?
361. Silvertip
@358: That's a really interesting point about the gender reversal on the part of the person doing the escaping and their reaction afterward. I'm going to go dig out KoD now and reread the sections with Elayne's escape/rescue, which is probably the closest direct comparison. IIRC her head winds up a good deal less messed up than Rand's, but that's likely attributable to the shorter duration of captivity and the fact that she was aware of Birgitte planning/implementing a rescue the whole time. Anybody who's rereading KoD now in preparation for TGS have anything to toss in?

Elayne and Nynaeve's encounter with Ronde Macura is much more on the order of a classic dudes-ride-in-to-the-rescue scenario, again IIRC.
Sean Arthur
362. wsean
@358 - I've kind of been thinking about that myself. The thing is, I'm slightly uncomfortable with how the SAS are treated when they did, after all, come to his rescue. Sure, it might've been motivated by their wanting to control him, or at least not wanting Elaida to. But they rode in to the rescue, at great personal danger, and got the shaft.

This, for me, is the key exchange:
Kiruna points out that they do not have nearly enough channelers to counter all that, and Perrin tells her to leave then; he will not let Elaida have Rand. Kiruna smiles, making Perrin’s skin crawl, and answers she will not either.

Regardless of their motivation, regardless of whether their help was ultimately necessary, the SAS charged in where they knew there was great danger, to try to rescue Rand. That oughta count for something.

There are parallels here to Mat riding in to rescue the SGs, way back in TDR, and getting nothing but chiding lectures for his trouble (at least he didn't have to swear oaths of fealty...). The main difference is that we see the SG rescue from Mat's perspective, and so take his side, while we see Dumai's Wells from Rand's and Perrin's perspective, and so tend to take their side.

But let's look at it from the SAS perspective for a moment. Here's the man who is the key to the world's future--winning TG depends on him making the right decisions leading up to it. And he's... some jumped up farmboy? Whose only advisors are, apparently, Aiel savages? Obviously he needs guidance from those who understand politics and the ruling of nations, and who know more than anyone else about the One Power and the Prophecies.

Ok, now the dumb farmboy has managed to get himself kidnapped by the usurper Amyrlin. If he'd been willing to listen in the first place, it never would've happened. And the army going off to rescue him is led by... a blacksmith? Lord have mercy. That fellow obviously needs guidance as well--this is too important to let him screw it up (and to be fair, Perrin does make at least one key error in not telling anyone about the wolves).

Finally, the battle won, the SAS come forward, assuming that having risked their lives to ride to the farmboy's rescue will count for something, and maybe he'll be more willing to listen to them now...

So yes, the whole thing is founded on a framework of misinterpretation and arrogance--but it's still understandable. We know that Rand has had a variety of expert advisors, and that he's not just some fool farmboy. We know that Perrin is a natural leader, that the troops will follow him anywhere. But the SAS don't know those things. They're not privy to most of the information that we are (except for Verin, to a limited extent, but she doesn't seem to be a fan of sharing information).

Wow, never thought I'd wall-o-text in defense of Aes Sedai...
Conor Murray
363. NotPropaganda
Enjoy your much needed break Leigh!

Ok I didn't read all the comments because, well, I'm lazy. But just a point about what you said of the "kneel or be knelt" line and gender reversals.

When I reverse the genders, and I think about everything that's occurred in the build-up, I'm pretty sure I still would've punched the air and said an expletive or two in joy at what had just happened. Could you imagine men acting as the Aes Sedai had? Men beating a female saviour of the world daily, for, let's be honest, no apparent reason?!

The same goes for the likes of Kiruna as well by the way. Just everything about the Aes Sedai seems geared for not only Rand to distrust them, but for the reader to as well. I think bringing gender into it is a bit... well, exaggerated I guess. I mean the whole point with Aes Sedai are that they have pulled themselves back from the world and the ordinary people don't trust them - I don't think being a woman really has anything to do with it. Apart from that only a woman can be an Aes Sedai, my point was more that I never think that RJ never intended for people to read it as "here's one of the most powerful organisations in the world, they're all-female, don't trust them".

And regardless of what the "kneel or be knelt" thing does in future, or what it infers, whatever, I still say it's one of my favourite lines in the entire series, and I've always liked Taim as a result haha. In Rand's position I would've reacted in the same way, although I may have stilled a few of the Aes Sedai that had beat me and kept me captive.

However I wasn't jumping for joy about the carnage of Dumai's Wells, reading the descriptions I actually had quite a similar reaction to Perrin, didn't actually empty my stomach but imagining exactly what the Ashaman were doing did make me quite queesy.
John Massey
364. subwoofer
wsean- I have stuff to say- up to my nipples in work right now but I have responses to your post- I have a rebuttal.

Roger Powell
365. forkroot
Dang! Good defense ... first post that softened my attitude to the SAS. (You a lawyer?)

Elayne and Nynaeve's encounter with Ronde Macura is much more on the order of a classic dudes-ride-in-to-the-rescue scenario, again IIRC.
Actually I see that whole incident more as El and Nyn learning what full AS have always known - the value of warders! Just because you can channel doesn't make you invincible.

Of course the most important lesson from the Macura encounter is that we are introduced to a very important herb! (tee-hee)
James Jones
366. jamesedjones
362 wsean

Hmmm... Interesting thoughts.

But - just because you can understand why someone acts a certain way doesn't make them right. It just makes them predictable.
Alice Arneson
367. Wetlandernw
Stromgard @ 347... just a couple of points. You sound like you're arguing with Leigh about the "gender-motivated" aspect of making the AS kneel to Rand. Please note that Leigh did not find it so at all. Her comments on that regard made it clear that she did not, and also that she was extremely bothered by those who a) saw it so and b) took delight in it for that reason.

That said, you paint AS with an awfully broad brush. Not to say that there aren't plenty of things wrong in the way they do things, but you amplify the negatives and ignore most of the positives.

First, regarding this:
Except for the qualities under point 3, the Aes Sedai haven't a single personality trait that makes them better, wiser, smarter or see clearer than "normal" humans.
Might I point out that by the time a "normal" human is dying of old age, an AS is just well-embarked on her studies. She may have the equivalent of four or five "normal" lifetimes to study, and to build on her studies, to give her greater knowledge in her particular area of expertise. The fact that not all AS make good use of this gift does not remove it as a distinct advantage. It would be beyond the ability of most humans to resist the temptation to dismiss the opinions of others in the face of one's own "obviously superior" knowledge. Seriously, if you've studied mathematics at post-graduate levels for 20 years, how likely are you to respect the opinions (regarding that subject) of a college freshman just now starting on calculus? If you've studied governance and international relations for 175 years, how seriously will you take the expertise of a 21-year-old kid? Or even a 50-year-old general?

Second, I personally find your evaluations of the Ajahs a bit skewed. Some show the characteristics you attribute to them, but some don't. In most cases, you more or less reflect the evaluation of someone from another Ajah (which is distinctly likely to be condescending), such as the idea that Browns are so focused on "knowledge" that they can't understand the reality facing them, or that Whites are so focused on logic that they don't understand real people. From Verin's POV, we know that she doesn't fit the stereotype, but most other AS don't realize it at all. Blue... from within, they are committed to causes; the only "cause" we know much about is Moiraine & Siuan dedicating their lives to finding the DR and being prepared to assist him in whatever way seems necessary. From without, other Ajahs roll their eyes at the "causes" idea, because in many cases they must seem rather ephemeral to one who can expect to live 200 - 300 years.

You claim that the AS are bigots against non-AS; until the events of these books, the AS had no idea that the Wise Ones or Windfinders even existed, much less were able to channel at the levels they do. The fact is that the AS were carefully kept ignorant of their existence, and ignorance is not bigotry in itself. Some few AS really have no excuse except custom to retain their attitude of superiority to the others, but you have to remember that only a few at a time are actually exposed to the strength of the WOs or WFs. For the rest, it's all rumor. I'm not saying their attitude is right, but it is quite understandable.

Your list of their faults is no more than could be listed of any general group of people: decisions motivated by fear, envy, spite, hatred, petty vindictiveness; believing what they want to believe; subject to greed, vanity, gluttony, sex addiction... The real kicker is "try to get things their way just because they can." Show me one living human who doesn't do that sometimes! These things are all basic human nature. We see these behaviors amplified in some of the AS, and find it offensive. But there are other AS who take their responsibilities seriously and have different motivations: a desire to maintain international peace and stability; the search for knowledge; and friendship; among many others. Oh, and let's not forget the desire to protect the world from the DO.

All people occasionally need to be humbled, and those who have both "magic" and "experience" which grant them a logical position of authority find it more difficult to accept. Yes, the AS need to change, a lot. And there are some **coughElaidacough** who don't seem to realize that their personal aggrandizement could come at the cost of the whole world. But they aren't as a group necessarily horrible people. The advent of the Dragon Reborn and the approach of Tarmon Gai'don are not normal events, and they (like everyone else) have no framework for it. It's only to be expected that they first fall back on their normal framework: AS take charge because they always have. But the Dragon Reborn changes everything, and we have some AS who are changing willingly, some who are not.

wsean @362 - Wow, never thought I'd wall-o-text in defense of Aes Sedai... LOL! Me too, but hey... And I really like your points. Meant to make some of them myself, but slanted a different direction.
368. ClairedeT
Check out Leigh on Youtube.
Sam Mickel
369. Samadai

thanks for the shout out.

Everyone who was interested,

Damn near done with the complete story. I just have to edit it and make sure it read ok. Then throw it into a pdf. file for people to read. when it is ready I will leave my email address so those who want to read can email me for a copy.
Roger Powell
371. forkroot
Like I'd trust your links ... rickroll me once, shame on you; rickroll me twice, shame on me!
375. Freelancer
For Elaida's part, she seems to believe, due to flawlessly interpreting her own Foretelling, that having Rand is enough of a plan. The trumpet sounds, the balloon goes up, whatever it is that signals the official beginning of Tar'mon Gai'don, and she will send the order to go fetch the boy from his "apartments" (dungeon). Deliver him to wherever seems to be the right place (shielded until they arrive, of course), and then wait and watch how he saves mankind.

Who needs more of a plan than that?

I sincerely believe that Egwene wants to get the Tower whole for Rand's support, even though she simultaneously still can't imagine that he can pull anything off successfully without her guidance.

Both want the dark one defeated, both know that it can't be done without the Dragon, both are sure they know best how to either help or direct him. Both are wrong, to varying degrees.
Sean Arthur
376. wsean
JEJ @366 - You're absolutely right. The assumptions they made were not correct, and so led to mistakes. I just wanted to try and shed some light on how they got there.

Wetlander @367 - Right on. Some excellent points.

JEJ @373 - Thanks for the link. Leigh has a really good radio voice; she should do podcasts or something. P.S. You'd think I'd have learned by now, but I clicked on your first link... :/
377. Nightbaron
One of the good things about Leigh taking a break is that I can finally post almost 2 days late and know people aren't running off to read the new post! :)

A few things...

About the covers: as many gripes as I may have with Darryl Sweet's depictions of the characters, it wouldn't be WoT without them, for me. When Tor tried changing the covers with the... PoD paperback I think? I deliberately held off buying it until I found it with the Sweet cover. My favorite is probably the tDR one, even despite the boys's appearance and the incongruity with the actual scene, I love the imagery of Rand reaching for Callandor.

About the gender/sexual orientations issues: I can definitely understand that different personal backgrounds can greatly change one's perspective on the text. As a white man, I rarely even perceive race or gender issues, for example, but as a gay man, I definitely am more aware of gay representation in the media. So while I did agree that the gay representation in WoT is certainly not the most... representative, it does not bother me much because it's fiction, it's great literature, and it wasn't done out of spite or opposing beliefs by the author (as per his quotes on the subject). But it's always fun to discuss!

About Dumai's Wells: I was really surprised when I first joined the Usenet group to see how beloved the Dumai's Wells scene was. I was much younger at the time, pretty naive and innocent, and I felt actual revulsion at the imagery of the Asha'man attacks. At the end, the victory ended up soured for me, as well as the treatment of the SAS. I have a new perspective on it, for sure, and I can appreciate the pay-off, but my first impression will always remain for me; a sad victory which wasn't even against the Shadow, so felt very empty. The only other time that I have felt this way in WoT was at the end of KoD, when Perrin rescues Faile and kills Rolan. I had really come to like Rolan, and considering the dynamics between him and Faile, it just felt wrong to me. I'm about to start re-reading KoD tonight, so I can't wait to see how I react to that scene again.

About Leigh's youtube video: you look nothing like I imagined! I know, it's odd, but I usually have a mental image of people I "know" online, and I've read you since the Usenet days, so I had a mental image of you when reading your stuff. So it was great to see how you really look!

About tGS: I'm getting crazy with excitement, and this re-read and associated comments had a HUGE part in it. I couldn't re-read the entire series before the release, so I read the Mistborn trilogy, CoT and now KoD instead, therefore I wouldn't have built up so much hype without the re-read. Thanks Leigh and thanks all!
378. sus_b
I just bought the Gathering Storm at a bookstore. They must have got the date wrong or something.

I'm excited1!!!!
James Jones
379. jamesedjones
377 Nightbaron
The only other time that I have felt this way in WoT was at the end of KoD, when Perrin rescues Faile and kills Rolan.
That one's easy. Just think how Perrin would have reacted had he know exactly how everything happened with Rolan and Faile.

The guy attacks his wife, captures her, forces her to run through miserable weather without adequate protection, spanks her, and then uses the excuse of helping her to fondle a helpless woman. I can't see Perrin being nearly as merciful as he was if he knew the whole story.

Edit: Misspelled Perrin :P
Matthew Smith
380. blocksmith
Nightbaron@ 377

Understand your point regarding Rolan...very honorable character in the Aiel way and helped Faile and Friends on more than one occasion.

That said, and trust me I don't get things right often, but I felt that Perrin was going to off him after the second serious interaction between Faile and Rolan. It was clear at that point that at least a one-sided relationship had developed and, honorable as he was, he was likely not going to allow Faile to be "rescued".


If you are pulling a fast one, may you never find water and shade...just kidding...kind of.

If not...what country, state, town, and store?

Pretty please? (begging) With sugar on top? (on knees) Offer you can't refuse? (extending cash)
j p
381. sps49
birgit @333- No, that isn't a damane, it's Aviendha from Rand's POV facing the Seanchan in Seanchan.

wsean @362- Arg, no, the TAS intended all along to take Rand to Tar Valon. It has nothing to do with whether he listened to them or not. Do you also think hotties in miniskirts are "asking for it"? *headdesk*
Sean Arthur
382. wsean
sps @381- in your haste to smack your head into a desk, you misread my post. Remember, we were taking the SAS perspective, not the TAS.
j p
384. sps49
jej's links at 370 and 373 are okay, folks. And I never knew our beloved Leigh was articulate and attractive.

wsean @382- no, I got the SAS perspective bit, I just don't agree. I never felt for Carridin while reading his POV pages; some things can't be justified or rationalized. The Salidar Aes Sedai, Bera and Kiruna in particular, are still in the wrong and still at fault. They do not allow evidence in front of them to override their prejudices, they all complicitly or implicitly allow their embassy's leader to be shunted aside, and they refuse to recognize that The World Does Not Revolve Around Them, instead ignoring everyone and doing whatever the hell they feel like. Rand should've listened to them? Communication is the responsibility of all parties involved.
Thomas Keith
385. insectoid
Isilel @329: I like your predictions! May many of them come true ;)

Planeswalker @340: spoilers! I'm not listening, I'm not listening, la la la la...

Man-o-Manetheran @346: Agreed!

Stromgard @347: That's very...long. Nice analysis.

JEJ @370,373: I'll check those out soon. Go Leigh!

sps49 @381: Save yourself with bubble wrap! :)

With all this talk of people getting the book early, I fear I must say: *shiver* *twitch*
Dick Papazian
386. Papas
It seems like a mostly forgotten post, but regarding richg25 @344

I agree that there really isn't that big a difference between if LTT is real compared to Leighs theory. If LTT is constructed from ALL of LTT old far as being a voice in someone's head...that's about the same thing as another person. The talking bit makes it a bit different though and I kinda like Leighs theory because it's very plausible.
Sean Arthur
387. wsean
sps @384- that's fine, you don't have to agree. I just don't like words being put into my mouth. I did not say that had Rand listened to the TAS, they wouldn't have taken him (I'm not sure how else to parse your post, given the "hotties in miniskirts" bit). I was saying that from the SAS perspective, if he'd listened to them, he'd have stayed away from the TAS to begin with, and thus they couldn't have kidnapped him.

And from at least this reader's perspective, he really should've known to stay away from them. Their Amyrlin is a Red. Egwene told him they were bad news. Moiraine told him not to trust any Aes Sedai outside of the Two Rivers folks. He just didn't listen, because he naively thought he had an in with a secret faction inside the Tower.
Barry T
388. blindillusion

Leigh ruels!!

Seems they crashed Dragonmount....LOFL


Planeswalker is on the site.
Rob Munnelly
389. RobMRobM
lsiel at 329 - my responses. Nice job on these.

1. Lelaine is Sheriam's torturer. She is evilly ambitious, but not Black and neither is Sheriam. AGREE.

2. Lelaine will somehow try to cause Egwene's execution - maybe via a fake rescue attempt. That's how Egwene's Dream of being on the block and an ax descending will come to pass. "Somebody running to save her" will be Siuan and Gawyn. EGWENE IS BOTH AN UNLAWFUL AMYRLIN (TO ELAIDA) AND REVEALED THE EXISTENCE OF THE 13TH DEPOSITORY TO UNAUTHORIZED PERSONS, WHICH IS A CAPITAL CRIME. I'D BE BETTING ON A TICKED OFF ELAIDA RATHER THAN LELAINE BUT YOU COULD BE RIGHT THAN EG WILL BE ON THE BLOCK. HARD TO SEE HOW EITHER GAWYN OR SIUAN COULD SAVE HER, GIVEN LACK/WEAKNESS IN POWER, BUT AGREE GAWYN MUST HAVE SOME ROLE.

3. Egwene will be contacted by the BA hunters and become one of them. She will bring in Beonin, Silviana, Nicola and Areina. She will provide the essential clue about Alviarin. STRONGLY AGREE.

4. Siuan will demand an open trial, where she will explain herself and admit her lies about Logain.
Her public divulging of the fate of Tamra and her searchers and of the mass murder of lucky men and boys by the BA after the Aiel War will be used by Egwene's faction and BA hunters to start the open BA purge via mass re-swearing of the First Oath. DOUBT THIS ONE BUT INTERESTING.

5. Egwene will fight Mesaana (with assistance) and possibly kill her. I CAN BUY IT. NICE.

6. Egwene will be collared again and find the way to beat the a'dam.
It is even possible that she will let herself be collared on purpose in order to reach Tuon and convince her of the error of her ways. Only the proof that a'dam can be beaten will cause Seanchan to reconsider their stance on capturing and enslaving channelers. DON'T BUY THIS BUT I DO AGREE SHE'S BE SAVED BY A SEANCHAN. MORE LIKELY TYLEE.

7. Alanna will die and precipitate Rand into the broken-bond craziness and the "blind beggar" mode. POSSIBLE, BUT DON'T THINK ALANNA WILL BE TRIGGER. YES, I THINK HE WILL GO BLIND BEGGAR MODE BUT NOT UNTIL NEXT BOOK.

8. Elza Penfell will kill Cadsuane and free Semirage. GREAT THEORY. I LIKE IT.

9. Something unpleasant, but ultimately non-fatal will happen to Min. DISAGREE. SHE'LL BE FINE.

10. Davram Bashere and/or his wife Deira is going to be revealed as a DF. Tenobia will die. NO!!!!! I DON'T BUY THIS. I DO AGREE HE'LL DIE, AS WILL TENOBIA, BUT THEY'LL SERVE THE LIGHT.

11. Perrin's posse will meet Galad's and Morgase will have to reveal herself to prevent the bloody clash. YES ON A MEETING. BERELAIN WILL PREVENT THE BLOODY CLASH. MORGASE WILL STAY HIDDEN BUT WILL BE RECOGNIZED BY TAM.

12. Galad will "do the right thing" and hang his friends and supporters Bornhald jr. and Byar for abandoning civilists to the Trollocs. NO WAY. THEY'VE CHANGED. THEY WILL APOLOGIZE TO PERRIN.

13. Berelein will finally fall for Galad and give up her pursuit of Perrin for good. YES!

14. Shaido WOs will rehabilitate themselves slightly by confounding their sul'dam via Aiel approach to torture. UNLIKELY. COLLAR IS TOO STRONG. WON'T WORK.

15. Demandred is in Shara and managed to become their leader. He has trained their conveniently labelled and even more conveniently ignorant male channelers and killed those female channelers who opposed him. He thus has armies that can use gateways and legions of channelers. DEM OR GRAEN WILL HAVE SHARA, YES.

16. Demandred will attack the Aiel who remained in the Waste - i.e. most civilists and kill the majority of them. Hence "the remnant of the remnant" NO. WE WON'T SEE THE REST OF AIEL.

May also be relegated to TToM:

17.We will find out that the Asha'man who have channeled tainted saidin can still go mad and that killing their bonded wives/sweethearts can precipitate it. NO ON GOING MAD; YES ON TAIM THREATENING WIVES/SWEETHEARTS TO TRY TO GAIN CONTROL OF RAND'S ASHA'S.

18.We will find out that the bondée of a saidin bond is affected the same way as a Warder when their bonder dies and that unpleasant stuff will happen to them if the bonder goes mad. YES RE DYING, NO GOING MAD.

19. Taim will be revealed as a DF and a new Forsaken (as per extra chairs at Forsaken Social in KoD) and will use these facts to rend loyalist Asha'man apart. YES!!!

20.He will also take non-DF Asha'man families hostage and blackmail the men into commiting acts of random destruction in the name of keeping their families from being killed. YES RE HOSTAGE BUT WILL USE AGAINST RAND NOT RE RANDOM DESTRUCTION.

21.He will be revealed as Ishy's student of long standing (10+ years) and a substantial number of his DF Asha'man will be revealed as his own students of long standing - years before Rand's amnesty. YES!

22.They are the "missing" male sparkers of the last decade - only 6 were found as opposed to dozens that are found normally, and the DFs who could be taught. LIKELY YES.

23. Ishy has also converted and trained some of the Aiel male sparkers who supposedly fight until death in the Blight. DOUBTFUL.
Alice Arneson
390. Wetlandernw
blindillusion - thanks. *sigh* I wanted to believe they were all just trying to yank our collective chains... and the first few of them seriously sounded just like that. Oh well. It's too bad; I'd love to have gotten mine early because today is the only chance I'd have until for the next 8-10 days where I'd have time to just dive in and wallow. *deep sigh* Well, I'll read when I can and try not to envy everyone who gets there sooner.
Barry T
391. blindillusion

There are a lot of people who seem to of gotten the book early. But reading on that site, I'd have to say at least 20+. Don't know how they did it, though.

There's lots of people who have posted on that site, but most of them would probably fall under the "trying to yank our collective chains" crowd.

I'm thinking of driving around to the several Wal-Marts around the Columbia area (shameless city plug, I know) and trying to find a copy.

Fridays are usually slow days at work...who needs sleep, really? Especially on the extremely off chance I might find a copy?

bunkers plenty of goodies to tide me over...the family is staying with my parents in the ' all I need is the freaking book!!!
392. alreadymadwithasarrogance
wsean @362
You got most of the points right except for the fact that they didn't risk their lives to ride to the farmboy's rescue. They did it to tie their own threads to him. Kiruna blushes in the next novel because their scheme backfired. It was all for appearances' sake since they could as easily have helped with the Power from where they were. And with typical arrogance, they thought a shepherdboy and a blacksmith wouldn't be able to tell.
They also know that until recently he was under the mentorship of Moiraine and Lan. A formidable pair by any standard.
393. geekanerd

Elayne's rescue in KoD is an interesting reference point. But it's funny in the sense that Elayne was never scared during her ordeal, because Min's Viewing assured her that she would deliver healthy babies. In some ways, she sees it as carte blanche to get into danger with some sort of assurance that she'll get out unscathed. Until, at least, she gives birth.


Good write up. And I pretty much agree with all of it. I can only think that -- and this isn't a justification for Rand's actions -- the SAS ended up being simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, in a sense. Somebody used the example of Perrin and Rolan above, and I think that's actually a similar case. True, Rolan was the one responsible for capturing Faile and was underhanded in some ways, but at the end of the day, he was doing what was right and helping her escape. We're not always rewarded how we'd like to be for doing the right thing, though. The SAS didn't deserve to be lumped in with the TAS, but to quote the the famous line from Unforgiven: "Deserves got nothing to do with it.".

Though I have to mention at this point that I find it interesting that Leigh brings up oaths taken during duress. There do not seem to be many given in Randland that aren't given under stress. #85 Brought up Siuan, Leane, and Min's oaths to Gareth Bryne. How about the wetlander gai'shan's oaths to Faile? The SAS who swear to Egwene? Alliandre's oath to Perrin? All of those swore oaths under various levels of duress, as well. It's hardly limited to Rand.
394. MasterAlThor

What did you do? Don't you understand that if you get Wetlandersnw's dander up we are all done for?

Hey, Wetlandernw!!!!

I've been rickrolled again, damn you. You son of the sands!!!

Ditto on whoever said that Leigh looks completely different. I thought she was more of a dirty blonde.
Alice Arneson
395. Wetlandernw
MasterAlThor - Hey, yourself! Yet again, I can't help coming to the defense of someone who is being unfairly beaten on. Not that the AS don't deserve some beating, but I just can't stand over-generalizations, especially when we've had many counterexamples. *sigh* speaking of yanking chains...

On an only-loosely-related topic, did anyone on here apply for/get one of the Storm Leader jobs for the upcoming tGS tour? Just curious. Especially about Seattle.

And another thing... has anyone else had to log in a lot more often lately? Seems like I'll be away from my computer for a while, and when I come back I have to log in on Tordotcom again. Might just be my system/carrier, or it might be a higher-than-usual level of activity here... Anyone else?

One more minor frustration: I went to check my pre-order status at Borders, and they have the nerve to tell me it's BACK-ORDERED!! I could just scream! I'm seriously tempted to stop at a couple of bookstores while I'm out this weekend just to see if anyone is selling early... Bad enough to hear about people getting early copies, but to find out that mine probably won't even ship until well after the release date? GAAAAHHHHH!!!!
Joseph Blaidd
396. SteelBlaidd
Terez posted a list of all the Chapter titles /w POVs over at Theoryland.

Enter at your own risk.
Sean Arthur
397. wsean
Not enough Mat. :(

Note that this is not a spoiler, as I'd say that no matter how many Mat chapters there were. :P
398. Stromgard
367. Wetlandernw, you don't see my point. Hm... let me put it in a different way.

Let me compare the AS to the multitude of women (and the few men) around Elayne in and around Caemlyn in book 9-11.

Look how they behave, then look at how AS behave, and lo and behold, the AS aren't acting smarter, wiser or morally more right than them.

In fact, one could claim that the reason for every mistake AS is doing is that they are so certain that they are wiser, smarter and right in every concevieble way, just because they are Aes Sedai.

It's like a collective Megalomania.

Once they are, in different ways, figuratevly grabbed by the neck and forced to look at the fact that sometimes they are wrong and others right, can they start to be all they can be.

AS have, as far as I can tell, many more faults than should be expected from maturing for centuries, and they aren't as intelligent or as wise as they "should" be, either. But their whole being screams "WE ARE ALWAYS RIGHT! WE ARE AES SEDAI!"

Take for example Sheriam's and the others' uniform attitude against the Dreamwalkers: "We don't need to be taught by you! We are Aes Sedai, you are just ignorant savages, we know everything about Tel'Aran'Rhiod, we can do anything, we are Aes Sedai."

The only reason they didn't die is that Elayne and Leane was with them and they were smart enough to actually LISTEN to the Dreamwalkers.

My point is the firm beliefs that AS have:

In their own moral superiority
In their own superior knowledge
In their own ultimate wisdom
In the fact that they think that noone can teach them anything

is hindering them to reach their full potential.

Every sister that is an amazing Aes Sedai have at some point being forced to see that they can learn, need to learn, from others. (In Cadsuane's case, it was a near-toothless wilder in Black Hills.)

As a side note, notice that no king or noble trusts or likes Aes Sedai in general, but they are afraid of them.

Because if an Aes Sedai comes and suggests something, they do as they are told, because if they don't word will spread that they don't have the favor of Aes Sedai, and then they may wake up one morning without a job, or with their throat cut. That is why every ruler outside Tear and Amadicia gets an Aes Sedai advisor as insurance, since no sister can meddle in another's affairs, they can't be told what to do by random sisters unless their advisors agree.

Note that people follow Rand, despite that he may go mad, since they BELIEVE in him.

Perrin, Mat, Elayne and Egwene have followers for the same reason.

All of these 5 (Egwene does it discreetly) strike down hard on any attempt of AS to control them, Elayne so hard that she throws out Elaida's ambassador without hearing what she has to say.

It's totally vital for their credibility that everyone understands that they are not in aný way puppets of the white tower, because that would erode their support.

While the common person has great respect and awe for AS, to nobles and others in power, AS are bullies and whenever they come, you have no way of knowing what they will take from you for their own obscure reasons.

And that is one of the reasons Moiraine shines like a bright star! Time and again, in book after book, she lowers herself to the SB:s and SG:s level to explain, comfort and support, and they come to trust and respect her. Well, except Mat, but in his defense, he spend a lot less time with her than the others, since he wasn't with her after Falme. And besides, Mat is going to rescue her, which he likely would have done for few other AS.

Aes Sedai means "Servants of all", and they - literally - need to take on an attitude of wanting to do that, or the world is screwed.

And honestly, you don't see it much, only in glimpses, but the AS that are disciples of the Wise Ones grow in power, grow in knowledge and grow as people! If they hadn't taken the oath they'd have stayed insufferable know-it-alls.

Speaking of AS, any thoughts on who the AS that is torturing Sheriam is? My bet is that it's the so far unknown Sitter that betrayed the plan to close the harbours to Elaida (and therefore is Elaida's spy among the SAS). It can't have been Halima since Sheriam would have noticed that it wasn't saidin. And it can't have been Delana since Delana is supposedly one of Sheriam's supporters. It can't have been Beonin since she already knows as much as Sheriam (and isn't a person that would do such things). And it can't have been Lelaine or Romanda since they wouldn't wanna push Sheriam towards the other one. So the question remains: who the Blight is it? All i can think of is that it is someone that know something that Sheriam wants to keep secret (thus Sheriam can't tell on her, and it's likely that the Hall wasn't informed of the weasels since Sheriam was afraid of darkfriends among them) and it has to be one of Lelaine's or Romanda's followers, pretending to gather information for them while actually spying for Elaida.
John Massey
399. subwoofer
Since somebody's got a cracked sense of humor, here is the real link for our Leigh on the tube.

John Massey
400. subwoofer
dammit- 4 hunny!!!

'K- here we go...

@wsean, seems to me you made some strong points, and I do not disagree with you totally as I did upon first blush but here...

And he's... some jumped up farmboy? Whose only advisors are, apparently, Aiel savages? Obviously he needs guidance from those who understand politics and the ruling of nations, and who know more than anyone else about the One Power and the Prophecies.

Several things here. Aiel Savages? I assume you are just paraphrasing, but AS, any AS has to be more enlightened to understand that the Aiel are anything but. Look at what the folks west of the Spine of the World refer to as the Aiel War. Could savages have been so effective as to have their way with any army that came against them, kill a king and then go back the way they had come?

As to who would know more about the One Power, I don't see the relevance. The analogy Eggy used was something to the tune of "teaching a fish to fly" or some such. Females cannot teach males how to channel. Period.

k, now the dumb farmboy has managed to get himself kidnapped by the usurper Amyrlin. If he'd been willing to listen in the first place, it never would've happened.

Shenanigans. I called it. If the ladies had been listening to Rand, he would not of fled the SAS in the first place.
“The restrictions stand,” he said quietly. “And one more requirement of my own. From now on I expect to see the respect I deserve from you. I am the Dragon Reborn. You may go now. The audience is at an end.”


A friend of mine once told me that in most dice games, the number thirteen is considered nearly as unlucky as rolling the Dark One’s Eyes. I also think thirteen is an unlucky number. I am going to Cairhien. You may follow me as you can with no more than five other sisters. That way you will be on an equal footing with the emissaries from the White Tower. I will be displeased if you try to bring more. Do not press me again. I have little trust left in me.

You get what you give. Yes Aes Sedai deserve some respect, but they wonder around like demi gods expecting all to bow down before them. You have a person on equal, if not greater footing than them. Give the DR the respect he deserves. It is the same as if Superman leaves the building because somebody is wondering around with a handful of kryptonite. Can you honestly blame Rand for leaving when there are 13 AS in shielding and striking distance?

So yes, the whole thing is founded on a framework of misinterpretation and arrogance--but it's still understandable.

Yes I agree with the first part, but the second is stretching it a bit. The AS have to have more intelligence than that. Short changing unknown quantities like Perrin, maybe. Not expecting Rand to have other advisers around him- pushing it. Short changing the Aiel? Hmmmm. I think AS have progressed beyond the typical "bloodthirsty Aiel" slur that gets bandied about. Assuming that they are the only source for leadership and knowledge in the world? Egotistical. What AMW... said at 392- it's all about manipulation and tying strings. Not about being noble and self sacrificing as their "servants of all" title implies.

Edit-Ohh yeah, and wsean, if Rand was such a pillock then how had he discovered Travelling? The AS acknowledge that Rand is doing things that had been forgotten. To do that and still think him ignorant is a pretty narrow view on their parts.

sorry folks- epic.

Alice Arneson
401. Wetlandernw
Stromgard @ 398 - Well, if you'd gotten around to stating a point before you started making blanket accusations about the terrible people AS are, or if you'd even followed all that with a coherent point, I might have actually caught it. As it is, I'm having to parse like crazy to get near a point in either of your posts. (Sez the #4-ranked wall'o'texter.)

I have no disagreement with the idea that the general AS approaches to Rand have been severely flawed, or that they should be willing to learn from others. I personally find their high-handedness with regard to politics over the centuries really irritating. However, I still hold that your written evaluation (@347) of their characteristics, motivations, and behavior is over-generalized and focuses solely on the negative aspects displayed by only a portion of the AS we've seen, while virtually ignoring the many positive aspects we've been shown throughout the series by others.

Hey asgerix, are you still out there? Wanna update the word counts? ;)
Thomas Keith
402. insectoid
Leigh: Great video. I'll say that you now have less toh to us. A very nice spoiler-free review tomorrow will meet the rest. :)

Sub @400: That means we're halfway to my prediction... ;D
Barry T
403. blindillusion
Not really related to anything, but man I wish I'd found this re-read when it started....
John Massey
404. subwoofer
@Wetlander- 'K I'm obviously worked up on this, ranted more than I have ever intended to but...

You claim that the AS are bigots against non-AS; until the events of these books, the AS had no idea that the Wise Ones or Windfinders even existed, much less were able to channel at the levels they do. The fact is that the AS were carefully kept ignorant of their existence, and ignorance is not bigotry in itself. Some few AS really have no excuse except custom to retain their attitude of superiority to the others, but you have to remember that only a few at a time are actually exposed to the strength of the WOs or WFs. For the rest, it's all rumor. I'm not saying their attitude is right, but it is quite understandable.

I do appreciate the point you are making here. What bothers me about the AS is that in essence they have brought this ignorance upon themselves. It has been referred to in the past, when people have spoken about "dwindling Tower numbers, and less and less Novices" every year. The AS have been breeding themselves out. Partly out of the necessity of preventing male channelers from doing harm, partly for not having the foresight to think, "gee, what's the best way for us to find more people who can channel?"

Two ways to go about this- the first is to actually go far afield and look, perhaps in places that you have not looked before- ie, Aiel Waste, the Sea of Storms, Tremalking, a random village in the far reaches of Andor, etc. The other way is by planned pregnancy. It would figure that the very people who have power would give birth to others.

And the AS have fostered a reputation that made it necessary for others to keep them ignorant. Look at how they treated Avi when she came to Salidar. Some were even betting that Avi would be in Novice white before the day was out. What is that? Lack of respect for other cultures and customs. The concept that anyone who has a spark must assimilate to the Tower way is flawed.

Look at the WO, the Kin- rejected Tower people, the Windfinders. Yes the AS were ignorant of these but it is their own egotistical fault. If the AS treated people better instead of the "you have the spark- come!" attitude, perhaps other cultures would be open to them. Attract more bees with honey than vinegar.

Edit- Moiraine the white and Suian, the fishy redeem the AS. Because of them and potentially others like them the AS are not all bad. It is the squabbling like Romanda and Lelaine, Elaida,and Alviarin, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Sorry folks, epic x2.

405. Planeswalker
I still go with the notion that:

Aes Sedai = Politicians

Sure, not all of them are people who think highly of themselves just because they got power and status. But most of them still do. Cadsuane is no different than a bully. Elaida (and even the Supergirls) think they are right and even still get hard-headed when proven wrong. Just look at them all scrambling to take control (and show 'guidance') to our taveren boys.
406. Planeswalker
Ooops - maybe I just hate the politicians here in our country... =)

In fact, one could claim that the reason for every mistake AS is doing is that they are so certain that they are wiser, smarter and right in every concevieble way, just because they are Aes Sedai.

yup, I have to agree on that one. everyone in Randland (especially in smaller towns) knows what to perceive of Aes Sedai. Damn, now I look like an AS hater... I admire Moiraine though. Seriously. And Lanfear. =) *headdesk *headdesk
407. MasterAlThor

Ooops - maybe I just hate the politicians here in our country... =)

Amen to that brother. We really need to find people who say what they mean and mean what they say.

Isn't it time for another poll or something? Anyone got one?
stefan warsink
408. grubber
hey anybody, seen this? link?

they got bumperstickers!
409. MasterAlThor

Are you handing out false hope? Is it possible that a WalMart may stupidly put the book on the shelf for sale early?

Can this happen?

Oh no! It may start again. The twitching
411. Planeswalker
ooh Master AlThor, about that saying what I mean and meaning what I say:

After reading Leigh's comment @234, I have to look up again at my comments before that. I guess I mentioned 'bitches'.. **bows head in shame**

But seriously, reading my comment again @158, I specifically mentioned the issue was not sexist. And I want everyone posting here to stop it. I am no sexist. **smiles - though I still mentioned the word...shame on me**

Back on topic, the 'bitch' term should be generalized and not gender-based. Or is there another word with the same meaning? I see 'bastard' would mean the same thing but still gender-biased. Fool? Stupid? Idiot?

I guess we'll all just have to avoid saying these deregatory words. There's always this someone who gets offended even without the prejudice. That's just how these words work. =)
Alice Arneson
412. Wetlandernw
Oddly enough, the English language has a great variety of words which would suit admirably. It's only when we insist on limiting our choices to profanity, obscenity or vulgarity that we have such trouble finding one that carries the appropriately scornful connotations without a sexist (or racist) bias.
413. Shadow_Jak
tamyrlink @ 121
(and is asha'man plural asha'men? or does it just stay asha'man?)
Or Asha'many? ;-)
Barry T
414. blindillusion

I only mention Wal-Mart because I found a copy of book 3 of The Inheritance Cycle at one in Baltimore about 4 days before it was supposed to go on sale.

I thought that was pretty cool. It's not my favorite series, but it's the first time anything like that ever happened to me.

EDIT!! wait, there have been polls throughout the re-read? guess that's what I get for not reading through all the comments along with the posts....


I know how you fell.
415. MasterAlThor
The Creator help me....I have seen what should not have been seen.

Planeswalker did not lie.

I am doomed. Doomed I tell ya.

Maybe I just forget what I saw and read.

I still can't believe it
John Massey
416. subwoofer
Ahhh- I saw it, wasn't soo bad. Also just watched Rise of the Fallen. Woo, very much enjoyed that movie.

C'mon, it's not like accidentally seeing your parents...

Anyways, at the time I looked, I thought they were being fairly respectful. Some hadn't seen the book yet, you can tell. Planeswalker was being decent with comments too. Seems like he was trying not to ruin it for everyone. Well done. As for the rest, well, Tuesday will tell all. These day's are flyin' by so fast, Tuesday will take care of itself.

My prediction. WoT will topple all for tops on the NYT best seller list. It will be there for months. Buzz like this is not a random thing. Oprah should be paying attention.

417. MasterAlThor

I think you misunderstood me friend. I was agreeing with you about the politican thing.

Anything else might just be a guilty conscious or those Bacon Bars from Oregon.

They were good but they tasted kinda funny....kinda like they had a little too much forkroot in them
418. MasterAlThor
Still haven't seen that yet Sub. Waiting till I get my own copy. And did you read some of the spoilers. Some of that stuff was crazy.

Like the stuff about........

And then to find out that...........

You have got to be kidding me, not all that bad.
John Massey
419. subwoofer
Gonna lay down now. Typed more that at any other point in recent history. I am the farthest thing from "tech savvy" and this is making me feel positively, er, techie. Thank you all for humoring me.

@ M A T- did you not see the part where I typed that I am dense like a brick? Will take more than that to phase me. A few words vs. the 3 hundred thousand that BS stings together. No worries:)

Edit- I see from my time log that I am 9 minutes and counting from being the next day, so I will drop the Four freakin' days until TGS!!! Represent!

Barry T
420. blindillusion

4 days and a wake up...unless Wal-Mart puts the book out at midnight. And since I suffer from insomnia and my wife is out of town.... Well, needless to say, I'll be at Wal-Mart at midnight.
421. Planeswalker
@416 Subwoofer
-Yes yes, I do try... I try really hard...
*sobs *sobs

This coming tuesday will be imsomnia day. literally, i'll be waiting for lotsa people here celebrating, headdesking, and such. i can't wait. just might crash that day. =)
422. ambidexter
Strangely, I was able to pick up my copy of TGS yesterday (22-10) from my local bookstore in a small town in the Netherlands.
Cynthia Ahmar
423. tenkuu
To be honest, I found the ending both a little sad and grand, but my sympathies lie solely with Rand and the physical fighters. The Asha'man finally began to be really useful as of that scene, so that was pretty cool, but compared to my feelings about the Aes Sedai, I neither like nor dislike them.

Without using the term "bitches", I do think that pretty much every Aes Sedai behaves in an arrogant way that is uncalled for, since aside from being Aes Sedai, they have no real authority and certainly don't have much respect if the general opinion of Aes Sedai is anything to go by. So, do I think these "good guy" Aes Sedai deserved to be forcibly knelt? Absolutely. It's a lesson in humility, especially since they did defy Rand's instructions.

Also, when one speaks of "gender equality" these days, it irritates me. It seems as though most women have a major attitude problem just because of feminism, and the ones most often being mocked and/or belittled in both our world and Jordan's are men. When you think of the fact that in Jordan's world, there was sexism mostly from the women towards the men, it doesn't seem such a big deal that some powerful and very annoying women were finally brought to heel.
424. Stromgard
Wetlandernw @ 401 - I was just saying that, as a collective, AS is not (unless guided by "better" AS) acting wiser, smarter or taking the moral high ground more often than other people.

If Egwene hadn't manipulated them, they'd still be waiting in Salidar and hoping for a miracle because they were too afraid to actually challenge Elaida (yes, it was Beonin feeding their fear, but they acted on it). If you look at tower history, they are (as a collective) not better than anyone else. Just ignore the very few that can be considered Aes Sedai HEROES for a moment (Moiraine, Verin, Merise, Cadsuane, Merana, Siuan, Leane, Seaine and the other 4 sitters, Silvania, the SG, Vandene, Adeleas and maybe half a dozen others that stand out because they are examples of what AS can be) and look at the rest.

Look at when Merana, leader of the SAS embassy AND the only diplomat in the group, try to talk sense into the others in the inn in Caemlyn. What happends? "Shush noob, we has more pwr than you, we is epix."

Look at how the tower AS fear and hate every sister of every other Ajah.

Look at what's happening in the Salidar Hall, not just the Machiavellian scheming and plotting, but how they almost RIOT when Moria and the other two suggested linking with Asha'man.

I have yet to see proof or indication that AS is better than other people. To me, they are normal people that can use magic, live very long, know how to manipulate (some does, it varies), have a lot of historical knowledge (some do) and have studied the propehcies (some has). But, and here is my point: they don't, as a crowd, ACT better than anyone else, and in many cases, their MOTIVES aren't as pure as "I'm gonna do good today! Yay!", but again, the problmes they have isn't that they aren't superior, but that they THINK and ACT like they are.

And look at how that makes others see them?

When Rand and Perrin and the others return from DW, Faile is terrified that everyone is mindcontrolled by AS.

When Amathera is humiliated and tortured by the 13, sorry they are 11 then, she doesn't for a moment consider them to be DF: in her mind, they are doing normal AS stuff. (What happened to Jeaine Ceade? I hope she dies in a horrible and painful way. I so hate DF:s! If my count is right, 3 more are unaccounted for, too. And Liandrin deserves a horrible fate.)

When Morgase was queen, everyone knew that Elaida was, well, more or less evil, and that didn't surprise people at all! Much less make Morgase wanna replace her. It's like: "AS can be evil and cruel, what else can be expected?"

I'm gonna say this as simple as I can: Aes Sedai are just as flawed as everyone else.

When they get enough knowledge of self to admit it, they will be better AS for it.
425. Stromgard
Oh, and it's Lelaine that is abusing Sheriam, she is not only playing the "I know why you kept the ferrets secret" card, but she is likely also using some sort of Blue Ajah supremacy thing, it's likely she is the Head of the Blue Ajah. (Can't remember if we know who that is, but if it's secret, i am sure it's Lelaine, she is ruthless and scary enough to make people choose her.)

I am too used to see Romanda and Lelaine as mirrors that i have missed that in the last 3 books, for all their struggle for power, Romanda show more and moree good qualities, and Lelaine let's her "mean streaks" shine more and more often.

Or maybe it's just in my head?
426. Stromgard
But that don't really tell us who the traitor is since no Blue Ajah would spy for Elaida?

I'm thinking slowly this morning!

That still leaves... 14 suspects, since i am fairly certain it's not Romanda?

It's likely one of those that didn't stand to declare war against Elaida in TPOD, that means, hm, Takima, Faiselle, Saroiya, Salita, Magla, Varillin.

And five of those, everyone but Salita, were the four that opposed forming circles with Asha'man violently in COT, which makes sense since the spy for Elaida wouldn't want the SAS to get such power.

But who it is, i don't have any clues to yet.
Barry T
427. blindillusion

Insensitive much? I actually suffer from chronic insomnia and let me tell you, it's a horrible affliction.

I mean goosh kid, remind me not to invite you to the bunker bash.

LOL. Actually, I guess it's a good thing I don't like sleep stop missing it after awhile.

And I agree. On Tuesday will crash, as will,, the 13thD and odds are a host of other sites I have no idea even exist.
428. Planeswalker

Hahaha, not really. I sometimes suffer from imsomnia too. I tried pills before and it was only effective for a couple of weeks. Had to stop before it becomes a habit or I die of drug abuse. Sometimes I envy people who sleeps so fast after just lying down. Really!
John Massey
429. subwoofer
@Stromgard- When Morgase was queen, everyone knew that Elaida was, well, more or less evil, and that didn't surprise people at all! Much less make Morgase wanna replace her. It's like: "AS can be evil and cruel, what else can be expected?"

I must of missed that one. While I think that Elaida is a douche, I do not think she is recognized as evil. More like egocentric and a strong lean towards megalomania. Elaida believes that she has the answers to all the WoT world's problems and will go down in history as the greatest Amyrlin ever. Reminds me of one of those strict catholic nuns that had absolutely no sense of humor or their own sense of fallacy.

I wonder what the Netherlands is like this time of year...

430. birgit
And besides, Mat is going to rescue her, which he likely would have done for few other AS.

He rescued the AS held by the Seanchan although he didn't know them well.

Look at what the folks west of the Spine of the World refer to as the Aiel War. Could savages have been so effective as to have their way with any army that came against them, kill a king and then go back the way they had come?

How should killing and raiding convince anybody that they are a civilized people? Everybody fears them as murdering savages because of the Aiel War.

The other way is by planned pregnancy. It would figure that the very people who have power would give birth to others.

The Whites suggested doing that, but Alviarin wasn't happy when Sheriam said she should be the mother if she likes the plan so much.
John Massey
431. subwoofer
Because the Aiel saw it as retribution for the "Treekiller's " sin. I believe the AS knew this- Lan says something about it. Generally speaking though, wild untamed barbarian hordes are effective with a mass of numbers, not disciplined fighting and tactics. It was only a fraction of the Aiel that went across the Dragonwall and whooped a$$. That had intelligence, planning, commitment and follow through stamped on it.

And let us not forget the key to understanding Aiel, which AS do know a bit about-Ji'e'toh. Mo has a bit of knowledge and there are a few other AS that make reference to it. How can a person know that all Aiel follow Ji'e'toh, and think them savage?

And yes, the Whites do suggest planned pregnancy- but did they follow through?

Edit- I don't think I mentioned Mat in any of my rants so I am not sure of the context of that comment.

Rob Munnelly
432. RobMRobM
Sub - you are irrepressible these days. Go Light!
John Massey
433. subwoofer
@ RobM- thanks- er, I think.

We are within striking distance of the promised land. On Tuesday it will be nothing but wine, women and song... er unless you are a women, then it will be wine, men and song... er, unless you prefer women, then back to the first...

Four days people!!! Wooo!!!

stefan warsink
434. grubber
right now it's mostly dry and quite mild, blind. although I must say I'm going by hearsay, as I'm in taiwan myself for another two and a half weeks..

ambidexter @ 422: waar dan? want dan laat ik mn meisje even langs gaan :)
Barry T
435. blindillusion
So, anyone else hoping for our very own Leigh Butler review of tGS? And anyone care to ponder when such a thing may be posted on a certain website so a select group of people can delight in talking about said review?

I'm hoping for after after 1500 myself. Work always seems to bog down after 1500 on Fridays. Especially if the 59 minute rule is in effect.
Sean Banawnie
436. Seanie
Go,Leigh,we're dyyyiiinnnggg for this one.
and if you are done reading it.....
its only a 3 hour drive to New York for me.
Hell, I'm driving to Buffalo in a coupla weeks to take my son to a Metallica concert. Piece o' cake, really....I knew you had an early copy ....signed too , right ? I promise , I won't drool on it...not much anyway...


Looking forward to your review. Anxiously.

Blind , I thought you were saying 1500 posts here.... nevermind .. the twitching is affecting me
more than I thought.
Barry T
437. blindillusion

Sorry 'bout that. I used to hate military time myself. The Air Force seldom used it. The Army, though...sheesh.

And 100% off topic, but this would be one cool name for a WOT character:

Soeren Gade Danish Defense Minister
438. MasterAlThor

4days to go.

Carry on.

I'll be back with more when I wake up.
Sean Banawnie
439. Seanie
Blind, i figured that out , i am used to hospital time .......but i wouldn't be suprised to get to 1500 if LEIGH DOESN"T HURRY UP AND READ THAT DAMN BOOK AND REVIEW IT FOR US!!!!


Back to Halloween decorating.

Maybe I'll make a Trolloc.
Bouke de Boer
440. Bouke
A review of TGS by Leigh would be awfully nice. How soon could we hope to expect this? November 1st?

Excited, whoo!
Sydo Zandstra
441. Fiddler
This is from Memory Lane, and slightly off topic.

I saw the interview with Leigh on YouTube that somebody posted, and how she said she decided to fly to Las Vegas in '99 to meet some people she talked to on Usenet about WoT.

I did the same, from Europe back then. I did plan a 2 week holiday trip through California and Nevada around that weekend, but still. These were people I had never met before, and who mailed me giving advice on where to go, take an AAA membership, etc. It was great, and I wasn't the only non-American to show up there. It was great fun.

There was a dinner and I was seated at the same table as Leigh was. You may not be surprised she talked a lot. But it was all very entertaining.
(I will not talk about some people suggesting making her breed with Jim Hill, another very funny person from Texas, in order to create the Funniest person in the world...)

Note my surprise when I saw this reread happening, headed under a name I thought familiar. As I thought back then, it remains. You rock, Leigh.

When she told about the people who sent flowers to her Dad's funeral, I wasn't really surprised. Lots of decent people there (although some could flame with the best ;) )

Take your deserved rest, and guide us towards the end of this series. ;)


Now, back on topic:

About AS flaws. It's been discussed enough, but I like to point out that the whole flaw in AS is perfectly shown in Merana's POV's from the point where Verin shows up, Bera and Kiruna coming in, too, Merana shouting to them that they need Rand more than he needs them and he knows it (and the others plainly ignoring that).

Because Merana was right. No AS has been more right in this series so far, without thinking after her own goals, with the possible exception of Moiraine. Everything that happened after to the SAS Sedai is their own fault.

(on a side note, but it's been a while, I thought it was Bera doing the haughty demanding towards Rand, and not Kiruna after DW)

The AS are flawed, in a way that a lot of other countries are too. They rate hierarchy on power, just like countries rate theirs based on nobility. The higher ranked, the more command power, and skill is not a factor. (Weiramon anyone?)

The exception is Cairhien here, but they learned this the hard way. And The Band of The Red Hand, but that was formed based on Mat's memories.
James Jones
442. jamesedjones
441 Fiddler
(I will not talk about some people suggesting making her breed with Jim Hill, another very funny person from Texas, in order to create the Funniest person in the world...)
I'm gonna go ahead and blame the AS for this, too. Culling the funny out of human kind. Leigh and Jim, get to work!
443. PhantomIce
@395. Wetlandernw

I share both your problem of being logged off from tor for no apparent reason (feels like I have to re log on every 2 hrs these days)

and your frustration about the call from Borders saying TGS is back ordered. Amazon uk emailed me to say the publisher has changed the release date (even though if you go onto the site it still says 27th) and now royal mail is on strike.

If I wasn't so afraid of losing the book to customs for no good reason I'd send my mom (not in US or UK so can't do it personally) out to raid bookstores for a copy.
Pelumi Adefope
444. GenghisCan
Leigh, don't go!

Thanks for the re-reads. See ya soon.

On the subject of the Aes Sedai kneeling to Rand, my thoughts weren't “Yay, those uppity bitches got what’s coming to them!.”

It was more of, here is this young man, Rand, who despite being beaten and battered, forced agents of the most powerful institution the planet to bend knee and swear allegiance to him.

Call me weird, but that was the part where I realized how powerful Rand was.
446. Stromgard
Subwoofer @ 429 - No, my point isn't that Elaida is evil, even if that is a matter of perspective. (I think that she is willing and able to do anything, literally, to promote and protect herself, and she is justifying that to herself by talking about the last battle and saving mankind, but it's really all about her own glory. On one POV occasion, she made it more or less clear that she wanna save the world to get in the history books, she don't really care about the people at all. But she is not evil as in Darkfriend-evil. On the other hand, are the DF more evil than others? Colavaere wasn't a DF, neither was Eamon Valda or Galldrian, Couladin or even Sevanna. I'd still put all of them in the "Evil" camp. Elaida may belong there too, and if my suspicions are correct, Lelaine should also be there.)

My point was that Elaida is SEEN as evil. Nynaeve says she is "as mean as a snake and as cruel as a cat" and it's more or less outspoken in EOTW that Elaida is considered in Caemlyn someone that should be avoided, not for being AS as much as for being Elaida. Basil Gill, a firm supporter of Aes Sedai normally, says like "Elaida wants to talk to you? Run for your life!"
Sean Banawnie
447. Seanie
an interesting contrast (even if cheating a little)
is Ingtar. His reason for going to the shadow was despair---more sympathetic than looking for his own glory. An emotion I am sure we will soon be revisiting {despair,I mean}.....hopefully he will be an inspiration...I say cheating because he repented.....(heroically too....)

448. alreadymadwithblues
Stromgard @425
I'm not sure who the Blue Ajah Head is among the rebels, but if it was Lelaine she wouldn't have had to beat Sheriam. She'd just ask her outright and demand an answer. Ajah heads tend to be authoritarian from many examples we see.

For that matter I don't think the First Selector is even in Salidar to begin with. I think a huge number of Blues including much of their leadership are still hiding in some other sanctuary somewhere. This is the one that indulges in causes. I doubt they would have had that many sisters in the Tower all the time. They are also smart enough not to put all their eggs in one basket. Case in point, no one in Salidar was highly placed enough to know who their spymistress was until Siuan identified Aeldene. Aeldene herself did not arrive until after Siuan rerouted the spy reports to Salidar.
a a-p
449. lostinshadow
Hi y'all

I've finally managed to catch up on this re-read and off goes Leigh for *whimper* maybe even a month.

hope you enjoy yourself and are recharged to pave our way through the remaining books. Your commentary is really fun and insightful. Thanks so much for doing such an amazing job.

meanwhile 4 more days to go to TGS YAAAY

can't really contribute much of substance with so much already having been said but still had to give myself a shoutout for catching up before TGS.

so are newbies allowed to peek into the bunker?
Barry T
450. blindillusion

Well, I kinda walked into the bunker in a nonchalant manner a few posts ago. So, welcome. Party hats are over there and bumper stickers are on this table here.

At them moment we're all kinda wondering around lost waiting for the next four days to pass.
Michael Catapano
451. hoping
Pull up a lawn chair
A chocolatey treat would not be amiss:)
I'm sure that by the time the weekend is over we will all be twitching in unison.
*continues to wait for leigh's fri 'something else'*
James Jones
452. jamesedjones
448 alreadymadwithblues
For that matter I don't think the First Selector is even in Salidar to begin with. I think a huge number of Blues including much of their leadership are still hiding in some other sanctuary somewhere.
I'm sure I remember reading that the Blue was one of the smallest Ajah's, and the Red was one of the largest. Can anyone point me to where I spotted that?
Roger Powell
453. forkroot
They were good but they tasted kinda funny....kinda like they had a little too much forkroot in them
Are you kidding? That's the subtle element that gives flavor not only to bacon bars, but to WoT ReReads!

And what is this forkroot flavor? Alternately humorous or mundane, occasionally informational, with recent hints of island scent and rare hints of bathroom (humor). An unusual mixture for sure!
Barry T
454. blindillusion
Here you go JEJ, from Ideal Seek

New Spring the Novel
Chapter 11
The Blue was the second smallest Ajah

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
Chapter 24
Page 219 (HC);
the Red Ajah is certainly the largest


And HEY!!! Leigh posted a review!!!
John Massey
455. subwoofer
Folks- as noted, there is a new post from Leigh...

456. MasterAlThor

To be sure that sits well with the brain, but for the stomach that might be a call for the pepto.

Enjoy your weekend my friend.

Leigh posted so are we now over there or over here?
James Jones
457. jamesedjones
454 blindillusion

THANK YOU!! That totally explains why I lost the reference. I'm not even bothering with NS in my reread. Gotta love the WOT knowledge cloud we have on this reread. :D
458. alreadymadwithbluescheme
The Blue Ajah is the second smallest after the White. Despite this, a huge fraction of their numbers are still unaccounted for since the Tower broke. Don't you think it strange that we know who practically every other Ajah Head is except for the Blue? This despite the Salidar effort being characterized as the Blues' response to Elaida's usurpation. They should be taking the central role there.
459. Freelancer
Hmm, and I was just thinking that forkroot was mostly tasteless, hard to swallow, with a slightly oily texture.
Alice Arneson
460. Wetlandernw
Forkroot is minty.

(Take it as you will....)
462. Freelancer
Ahh, yes, I remember now. Forkroot temporarily makes the magical, mundane.
Sydo Zandstra
463. Fiddler
@ARM(with whatever shows up):

That is a good point you make about the Blue Ajah.

And returning to my earlier point about the armies converging around the Ghealdan/Altara area, I saw your reply about it being proof about letting the Lord of Chaos rule.

Maybe. But what I forgot to point out there was that RJ used about 5 books to get all those armies there. Getting them back through Gateways when the Trollocs invade the Borderlands will not help much, because it will all depend on how big the Gateway is. It would be like putting meat in a grinder...

So, I'll be stubborn and stick to my idea that much fighting is going to happen there. ;)
464. Freelancer

I've always said that as well. I can well understand Sheriam being the Kahuna-Pro-Tem when Salidar first gets set up, having been senior staff in the Tower, as well as being blue, but one would think that since it was primarily blue (with green and yellow support) that fought against Elaida's usurpation, they would be much more fully represented in Salidar.

On the other hand, I don't see the blues setting more devious plans in motion by dividing their numbers in a variety of hiding places, and then us not hearing a peep about it for all this time. Folks here keep calling Sheriam weak and dimwitted, if such a setup occered she would have spilled to Egwene by now.
465. Roy007
I really dislike it when people turn everything involving males and females into a sexist argument. It is demeaning to both genders and the belief that PEOPLE of different genders can't have interactions without one side or the other being sexist is sexist in and of itself. Reasoning: You are Asumming based on the Gender of one party or another that their actions are sexist simply because they are that gender and thus incapable of not being sexist.

An asshole is an asshole regardless of gender.

He would have eavesdropped if he could; they
were hiding more than talk about the Aiel
women. For one thing, Alanna refused to tell
him how she knew where Rand was—“There is
knowledge that would burn any mind but Aes
Sedai,” she had told him, cool and mysterious,
but she fairly reeked of anxiety and pain—and
she would not even admit to having said he was
injured in some way.

"Burn any mind not Aes Sedai" yeah burn in rage. This, the condescending attitude ALL AS display, and the flat refusing to respect a clearly written restraining order are all reasons the SAS DESERVED to be knelt and to swear the oaths.

Some people defend them saying their intention to "rescue" Rand should have kept them from being forced to swear oaths. BS, absolutely BS. They didn't come to rescue Rand al'Thor, they came to take back "their" puppet that the TAS stole from them. The MO of AS in general is to bully everyone into to doing what *they* want. If Rand was going to trust them to do anything more than rot in a cell they would need to have sworn unbreakable oaths that they wouldn't pull any such crap on him.

For Rand to trust them without those oaths would be complete stupidity on his part and Rand isn't stupid. Personally I would have stilled two of the SAS and said "I said six and now you have six. Don't push me again."
Sydo Zandstra
466. Fiddler
I'm not defending AS attitude here.

But the SAS Sedai didn't come towards DW to reclaim "their puppet that the TAS stole from them".

They didn't even know the TAS Sedai had taken him. They were arrogant, yes. But they didn't go to Cairhien to reclaim Rand. Rand told them to go there in order to talk to him.

That comment about stilling is ridiculous, BTW. Should Aiel kill all Cairhien people too, since they are despicable Treekillers?
467. alreadymadwithBera&Kiruna
Rand told them to go there in order to talk to him. That's not the same as saying that's what they went to Cairhien for. The mere fact that they ignored his stricture to bring only six suggests they did not consider him to be worth bargaining with in good faith. They did the Aes Sedai equivalent of bringing more guns to a dialogue that had already failed once. Whatever it was they were interested in, it wasn't simply talking. I'd say they meant to acquire Rand's cooperation by force.
Tess Laird
468. thewindrose
One way I look at the ending of LoC, is with a great amount of trepidation. Until this ending, the Go Light team were getting some things done. Book endings shined well for our heroes. With this ambiguous ending, where nothing really went right and everything going sideways(as sub likes to say)things are going down hill for team light. And in all of the following books, we don't get that sense that things are getting done. Yes, we have the Cleansing, but really, there are so few victories to put team light on the track to winning TG. These last three books are going to have to show incredible cooperation, or there will be no more Team Light. So when I read the final chapters of LoC, I come away with great fear for our heros, and a sadness at where they are at in terms of relations with each other.
Nicholas Forrester
469. Roy007
@466 I was referring to the SAS reason for going into battle. Yes they were going to Cairhien to continue to try and browbeat him into obeying their orders but they went *into* battle to keep the TAS from stealing what they say as their tool no matter how uncooperative it was being.

As for the Stilling comment and your Aiel/Caihien rebuttal: The Aiel WANT to kill most Cairhien combatants when they get a chance as has been seen on multiple occasions.

For the Stilling comment itself Rand had just gotten through Stilling several TAS in his breakout and was faced with several women who appeared to be doing the exact same thing.

The TAS sneaked several additional Sisters in to capture Rand, the SAS were attempting to bring several additional Sisters with them as well. Having only just escaped from his captors and then being faced with people who seemed to be trying to attempt the same damn stunt only an idiot wouldn't see trouble ahead.

I agree with 467 that the SAS were going to attempt force instead of diplomacy if browbeating failed again. I think the only reason they didn't try it before when they were attempting to cow Rand was the fact the hall was full of Aiel and sharp, pointy, deadly spears.
Alice Arneson
470. Wetlandernw
Roy007 @365 - Personally I would have stilled two of the SAS and said "I said six and now you have six. Don't push me again." Tell me, what were you going to do with the other one? Execute her?
Nicholas Forrester
471. Roy007
I miss-typed but since I hadn't logged in I can't edit it. XD
Maiane Bakroeva
472. Isilel
@469 Roy007:

they went *into* battle to keep the TAS from stealing what they say as their tool no matter how uncooperative it was being.

And who on Rand's side, pray, went into battle for a different reason? Even Aiel follow Rand because they know that he will save them and they don't obey him uncritically either, particularly not the women. Etc.

Personally I would have stilled two of the SAS and said "I said six and now you have six. Don't push me again."

Yea, that would make undecided folks want to help Rand out for sure! Rescue him and he'll turn on you and kill/mutilate you. The best way to get and retain allies, I tell ya.

Well, IMHO, and I may be proven wrong, the whole point is that Rand goes all wrong about his leadership. And sure, his ta'vereness and prophecies of the Dragon and his own intelligence help him out and make it work somewhat, but it is not ideal, by far.

Re: the SAS embassy, K@B actually intended them to be 8, not 9, Merana had to beg to be taken along, because she hoped to mitigate things a little. Anyway, the SAS meant to show that Rand couldn't browbeat them, but 8 are too few to force him to anything, as confrontation in the palace and reports of Alanna and Verin amply showed.

Also, if they didn't know through Alanna that something bad was happening to Rand, but normally entered Cahirien, they likely would have left the extra 3 outside the city, obeying the letter of his command.

Anyway, SAS as a whole were in too weak a position to try anything that might have alienated Rand for good.
Rand's paranoia and Min completely losing her head and panicking led to Rand being much more afraid of the SAS than was reasonable and far too complacent towards the TAS.
John Massey
473. subwoofer
I am not against what Rand did to the ladies that had him boxed. I understand Roy@469, or at least what he was getting to. I don't nec agree with the logic though. We now know that Ny can heal Stilling. To what extent and how effective I believe the Sisters are still discovering.

That being said, Stilling is a huge deal. Sisters have been crushed by it, mentally given up hope... Warders- it is a death sentence for them, and they are just trying to keep their Sister alive. Pretty harsh. Perhaps a shield or a device like what Asmo had. Something that is not the end of the world, but still a severe punishment to put on AS. Mind you, what Rand did, giving the Sisters- all Sisters, over to the WO was pretty fitting. Sorelia's smell of satisfaction. Maybe if the AS learn Ji'e'toh, that'll settle their hash somewhat, and not make them such self-righteous nags.

Edit- one of my favorite exchanges of insults- I can't remember who said what but it went to the tune of "Can we trust the Aiel savages?" "Can we trust the Treekillers?" heh! Perspective of each reflecting in what the respective party considers insulting to the other.

474. MasterAlThor
Way off topic,

Went to the Penn St-Mich game. Froze my ass off and watched my Wolverines get their butts handed to them.

Not enjoying my Sat. Thank God only 2 days left till Tuesday.

Isn't that a song or a band? Till Tuesday.

Hmph. At least I got to go to the game, and I took my daughter and son. They said they enjoyed it but I think they just try to keep the old man happy so he will keep spending his money. LoL.
Rob Munnelly
475. RobMRobM
474. Boston-based band - lead singer was Aimee Mann, now a well established (and Oscar winning) solo artist.
Barry T
476. blindillusion
Loony Thoery:

What if it wasn't who killed Asmodean, but what?

What if what killed Asmodean was a bubble of evil, Couladin flavored?

It's someone he wouldn't have expected to see alive. It's something he couldn't have done anything to in the moment before it struck. And who's to say the DO cannot control its bubbles?

Sure, not likely, but it's a thought.
477. Miythrandir
Leigh, I did the gender switch thing mentally and came out with the exact same feelings which I did before, so IMO my perspective is not sexist.

I somewhat (not completely but somewhat) rejoiced in Taim's "kneel or you shall be knelt" comment because of all the quite literal blood, sweat, and tears Rand had been through. It brings a sense of justice to the least in a way. At the same time, the statement "two wrongs don't make a right" comes into I'm kind of divided on the issue but leaning more towards understanding of Rand's position (not Taim's of course - can't wait to see him get blown up in a grinder). The comment seems to be over the top to me, but still called for. Heck, I'm surprised Rand didn't just kill all the tower Aes Sedai for their repeated torture of him. The fact that he didn't makes him an ultra good guy.

Not sure if I would have had the little tower Aes Sedai kneel also if I were Rand because know, didn't torture me. Yes, they defied (me), but that's not the same thing, so it shouldn't receive the same punishment.
John Massey
478. subwoofer
Aimee Mann rocks- she did a Christmas special last year online- really cracked me up=)She has an adult sound but is still wacky!

We are knocking on the door now-two days until TGS drops!!! I am making a bee line to the nearest Costco. If they don't have the books out, I'll light a fire under the nearest manager until I have it in my hot little hands.

Or back to the idea that I spend a little travel time and we roll the odd person with the book now. I have a bow and flexible morals so let 'er rip.

479. alreadymadwithwaitfortgs
Tuesday comes around here 12 hrs earlier than it does in the East Coast. Now if I could only be sure that a local bookstore chain carries it.
Dorothy Johnston
480. CloudMist
To keep us all sane for the next 50 hours, why don't we post our guesses on how many times the Tor website will crash Wednesday (Tuesday we'll be too busy reading.) :) My guess: 4 times.
Sydo Zandstra
481. Fiddler

The only AS that got stilled during DW were those that were last in line in keeping Rand shielded. Rand never wanted to still them on purpose, they just were the last 'knots' he and LTT were working on in order to get free and them being stilled was a side-effect.

Suggesting Rand stilling SAS Sedai to get them on equal footing with the TAS Sedai suggests Rand stilling people on purpose. Rand may be hard, but storywise, I am glad he isn't that hard yet.

But let's leave it here. There's a new book coming :)
482. MasterAlThor
Sub you know I am down for it. Where to first?
We'll grab windrose on the way.

Thanks guys for telling me about Amiee Mann.

My guess is the site will crash about 3 times. Wednesday, and at least 2 more times on Thursday.
483. SJ-Jazz
Perhaps this type of victory @ Dumai’s Wells is comparable to the victory over the shadow that eventually became Shadar Logoth?
Rob Munnelly
484. RobMRobM
@480and 482. I bet twice - combo of WOT plus another fricken Steampunk contest or two will prove too much for the servers more than once, even if they've been preparing for months. "Break it, break it...."

FYI - over at Leigh's non-spoiler entry, I did the latest review in my own initial reads of key SF/fantasy works of last quarter century, as recommended by this group. Post focuses on Connie Willis and tees up who is next in line (Dark Elf, then Farseer, then Dragonlance). Rob
Tess Laird
485. thewindrose
I am down for special ops book extrication! I already took off Tuesday and Wednesday, I can add Monday.
486. Freelancer
When he reached for saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly, it tore apart before him like rotted cloth. The Power filled him, and as it did, he siezed at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit. Aside from that, he still could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly was the inside of the chest...

Not a side effect. He very specifically targeted those points after he broke the shield. The words crushing them ruthlessly speaks to his awareness that he was attacking their ability itself. (Edit PS) The only reason he didn't immediately do the same with the others is made plain in the text. While he could find the "soft points" of the shield while still in the box, he otherwise couldn't channel where he couldn't see, or he might well have still all of the Tower Aes Sedai he could reach out to.

I agree with your latter point that Rand would not intentionally still someone who had not attacked and abused him. But if you look just a few paragraphs later you will see that he knows he stilled them before any female chaneler came and told him such, and strongly considered doing so with at least Erian.
Nicholas Forrester
487. Roy007
Rand spotted Erian quickly, slender and dark-haired on a pale gray mare. Lews Therin snarled, and Rand struck almost without thinking. He felt the other man’s disappointment as he did. Spirit to shield her, with the slight resistance that told of slicing through her connection of saidar, and even as that was tied, a club of Air to knock her unconscious from the saddle. If he decided to still her, he wanted her to know who was doing it and why.

In combination with Freelancer@486 it becomes apparent that Rand doesn't have a problem with Stilling people. Rand doesn't like to kill women, while Stilling tends to lead to suicide it does not kill them in and of itself. They are simply too weak mentally to live without the power and status to force people to do what they want.

Part of the reason I initially choose to make that comment was to provide an alternative to the "kneel or be knelt" comment. He could trust them not to break any agreements if he forced to them fulfill their side. So a binding oath not to do wrong by him or heavy and somewhat poetic punishment every time they attempt something stupid.
Alice Arneson
488. Wetlandernw
Roy - . They are simply too weak mentally to live without the power and status to force people to do what they want.

Wow. Anti-AS much? It's been made quite clear that it's the inability to touch saidar that leads stilled channelers to give up on life. I doubt that power and status have anything to do with it; it's knowing the Power is there and you can't touch it ever again. In their own POV's (any channeler, not just full AS with "power and status") you frequently hear about "the sweetness" of saidar, and when Leane and Siuan are Healed, their joy comes straight from that touch on saidar. While it's quite true that we have seen AS who are very much power-hungry control freaks, the same is not true of all AS.
489. alreadymadwithsevered
The same is also true of gentled men.

However in some ways, Roy does have a point. AS always tend to take for granted that the power and status to force people to do what they want should automatically be theirs without having to do anything to justify their right to such a privilege or authority. They are rarely even held accountable for it.
Jacy Clark
490. Amalisa

They are simply too weak mentally to live without the power and status to force people to do what they want.

And how does that square with men who have been gentled? Considering that most male channelers never achieve any status beyond notoriety as crazy men who might destroy the world if left to their own devices. I gather from the books that the percentage of false Dragons is very small when compared to the overall number of men who are discovered to be able to channel - even prior to the advent of the Black Tower.

At the barest minimum, equate saidar/saidin with one of the senses, and consider how most people react to the sudden, catastrophic loss of sight or hearing. Depression is a natural reaction - sometimes such severe depression that recovery is very difficult or even impossible.

I'm not arguing against the arrogance of the Aes Sedai, although I do still hold that it is not as widespread as the AS-haters would believe. I mean, there is no Fourth Oath: I vow to treat every living thing as dirt beneath my feet, unless she is a Sister, and sometimes even then. :P
Nicholas Forrester
491. Roy007
From the way the books have described channeling I see it as something of a drug addiction like heroine or cocaine as far as the urge to constantly be using goes. It is repeatedly mentioned that characters have to fight back the urge to take ever large "sips" of the power. The psychological symptoms of withdrawal probably do play a large part in the suicide rate than my previous comment implied. For male channelers though I think the suicide rate might have more to do self-fear at the prospect of going mad in addition to taint-sickness.

@488 I am somewhat Anti-AS given their horrible track record. But every single AS shown has attempted to force people to do what they want against their will mainly through manipulation. Even the SG do it regularly. They repeatedly boss people around and threaten and commit acts of physical violence against men.

Personally I was happy to see Faile spanked several books ago. Her constantly slapping Perrin meant I had a small amount of glee to see him snap and literally "slap her ass" to try and put an end to her juvenile and violent behavior.

For the record I don't see a difference between slaps to the face or the ears by a female and a punch to the mouth by a male. If you do the gender-swap with that in mind the SG quickly become a gang of very abusive and violent boys punching people for every imagined slight against them.

Now if they were doing smacking people upside the back of the head I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.(The difference comes from a vastly reduced sensitivity in the back of the head compared to the face being one of the most sensitive parts of the body) But going around around boxing people's ears to try and make them fall on their ass in addition to a ringing in their ears and a sharp sting in the face is NOT COOL.
492. Freelancer

You'll understand if I say that you're late. These topics have been hammered on quite thoroughly over the past nine months, and while I wouldn't expect anyone to go through the entire re-read and follow the comment threads to make sure they were "up to speed", you'll have to allow that many of the folks here have been through and through some of these issues, and bluntly, your comments are nothing new. I don't say that to be mean, but to set the stage for you, that when you effectively ressurect a previously dead horse to apply one more beating to it, others' responses to you might seem judgemental or terse, and there is good reason.

For myself, I give no credence to any comments that generalize a group so carelessly. If you read this series thoughtfully, and it would seem you do, one of the lessons Jordan brings to mind repeatedly is precisely to treat each individual based on their own merits, and not because of this or that group identity.

Cairhienin are excessively modest on the surface, yet schemers with no sense of honor. Tairens nobles despise commoners and hate channelers. Aiel are primitive savages. Aes Sedai are power hungry supremacists with complete disdain for those who do not share their ability. None of these statements are true, for while there is some visible evidence of veracity to the claims, when one once becomes honestly acquainted with individiuals from these cultures, it is clear that while some fit the mold, no mold is universal, and should therefore never be applied as though it were.

This is the single most common error made by almost every character in the story, which shows me that it was the lesson Jordan most intended to be learned.
Jacy Clark
493. Amalisa

This is the single most common error made by almost every character in the story, which shows me that it was the lesson Jordan most intended to be learned.

Hear, hear! Beautifully said!
Nicholas Forrester
494. Roy007
I more than understand that I am late, and that I am beating a dead horse. And yes I understand that general assertions about a population are bound to be inaccurate at the individual level.

But the manipulation thing is one of those things that rings true at all levels of the Tower and Salidar. This is because AS have to twist the truth since they are unable to outright lie. I was pointing out the SG, the few AS who don't have the oaths, also manipulate people repeatedly. Since their primary target is Matt, who I really like, I am especially annoyed and critical at those displays.

Though I do suppose a few random AS who don't manipulate people repeatedly do exist, we simply have never seen them.
John Massey
495. subwoofer
Well Roy- New book in a matter of a day and a few hours- after wailing through it, you can join in with us and be immersed in a current and relevant conversation. Welcome to the club:)

And leave poor Bela alone.

I would like to say, the folks at the local Chapters have no sense of humor. For people who work in retail they also have a very, um... strict code of ethics. It is like a rule about first contact. I was offering to scam a book at a reasonable profit... Okay folks... I'm starting to crack under the pressure here! Beware the Ides of March... er the 27th of October! Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! So close! I even saw the thing stacked outside a box- Huge! The cover is uglier in real life. We are talking one read here and the binding is gone.

Must resist urge to throttle local book store owner...

John Massey
500. subwoofer

edit-Woooo 5 hunny!
Alice Arneson
502. Wetlandernw
Woofer - LOL! The nerve of those people - to go and develop ethics just when you can see your book! Time to get some serious sympathy from the other woofer. Or a cookie. (Not from the other woofer, though. Ick.)
Barry T
503. blindillusion


People with morals. Sheesh. They should realize this is WOT we're talking about.

I'm planning on stopping by the local Wal-Mart tomorrow at 11:50...just in case. But then, I don't even know if Wal-Mart carries WOT...=(

Oh well, if not I'll be sneaking away from work for a few mintues on Tuesday. Yay@being an officer.

Bring on the Storm!!!
James Jones
504. jamesedjones
503 Blindillusion

If your local WalMart is open at midnight, they'll answer the phones.

Give 'em a call before leaving home.
Barry T
505. blindillusion

Well, the local Wal-Mart is only a two minute drive from my apartment.

And I do so hate talking on phones.
Jacy Clark
506. Amalisa
I have confirmed my local Hastings has them in stock. More importantly, they have one with my name on it.

Tomorrow, I will clean house, do laundry, go to the grocery store.

Tuesday morning, at 9:01 a.m., I will be at the Hastings. By 9:30 a.m. I will be back home, curled up in the big chair, with one cat beside me and the other on the ottoman, a diet Coke on the table and the book in my lap.

The Light willing and the creek don't rise!
John Massey
507. subwoofer
@Amalisa- Tough on the job situation:( But see what you can do about a boat if the creek rises;)

We are so close here!!!!

The Tigger bouncing has begun! Or is it the Hopper soaring?

508. MasterAlThor
Damn people, it is almost time....

Get ready for the Storm.

Peace out.
509. Silvertip
Freelancer @ 492: "This is the single most common error made by almost every character in the story"

... not to mention a whole lot of us in RL!

And once I have the book in my hands and reading, I think the message is: "Hush, keep it down down, voices carry ..."

'til Tuesday,

Galen Brinn
510. GatheringStorm
subwoofer @ 507Hopper soaring. Tigger's a bit...tame. lol

Waiting for Amazon to get mine in the mail. Made the mistake of using SuperSaver shipping ('cause it was free) and now I have to wait. QQ
sandi vogel
511. sinfulcashew
Well, as I have to wait for mine from Walmart in the mail also, I thought I would lighten the atmosphere a little.
Here is a quote from one of the books I am rereading.

"You mean they punished you for oathbreaking? If you've had your bottom switched for it, it doesn't count unless I do it."

More spanking talk? Oh my!
I thought we could put up things like this while we wait so patiently(Ha)!
Trying to see who knows where this can be found.
Kind of a seeking game? Or something?

Ron Garrison
512. Man-0-Manetheran
GatheringStorm: If you go to your order on Amazon, you can change the shipping. Of course, it will cost you, but if you are really twitching...
513. alreadymadwithspanking
TFoH chapter 28?
Not sure who said it though. Either an Aes Sedai or a Wise One. My money's on Sorilea or Amys.
James Jones
514. jamesedjones
511 sinfulcashew

Gareth Bryne to Suian

Edit: LOC in the Inn while Bryne is waiting for the Sisters to accept his deal.
Tess Laird
515. thewindrose
Bloody fishguts Byrnes to his twu luv Siuan.
516. David DeLaney
Just a note while waiting for to-morrow morning...

You know you've been re-reading too much Wheel of Time when: you wake up in the morning with

Could you would you
can you should you
are you gonna
do you wanna
BEEE my Warder to-niiiiight?

running in your head.

20 hours until I get to spend all day reading,
517. Freelancer
Yep, Siuan had tried to convince Bryne that she was already paying for the way the three ran away from Bryne's justice. He wasn't interested in whatever the Aes Sedai had in mind, he was still owed.
518. MasterAlThor

What song is that from? The only thing I could come up with is Whitney Houston, but I know that is wrong.

Day is half gone. Can't wait for class tonight cause once I get out it will be close to 10pm.

Takin it in small doses. Eats up the day faster.

James Jones
519. jamesedjones
WOT Quotes

How about this one? "Moiraine sent me." :D
Roger Powell
521. forkroot
Hey Freelancer ... saw my friend that works at the same place you do. I now know that you are a bunch of Allomancers since you burn tin. Impressive!
Tess Laird
522. thewindrose
And it was justified on Leigh's old site as "Moiraine sent me(thinking to herself - for pizza and it was delicious". OK, I am scaring myself....
sandi vogel
523. sinfulcashew
513. AMW...
Right book and chapter, but wrong persons.

514. JEJ
Right people. Wrong book.

515. windrose
Right people, but from where?

517. Free
Where is it found?

Come on guys!

And as for JEJ@519
Almost any book before the death scene?????
(can you tell I have no real idea?)
Rob Munnelly
524. RobMRobM
Here's an easy one: "Do you still have my doll?"
Tess Laird
526. thewindrose

**hehehehe** I am a little giddy...
Jacy Clark
527. Amalisa
Kinda sorta off topic... has a Facebook page. I don't know if it was originated by Tor or by a fan, but it's there. Not a lot of activity and only 80 or so members, but if you spend a lot of time with Facebook in the background (like me), it's kind of nice to know.
Rob Munnelly
528. RobMRobM
@525 - correct. KoD, Under an Oak.

Barry T
529. blindillusion

The Creator, tEotW.

Though it might have been Bela as I don't think Mr Jordan every actually said the Creator SPOKE to Rand at the Gap.
Tess Laird
530. thewindrose
Barry T
531. blindillusion
"Myrddraal want talk you."

Here's an easy one.
Galen Brinn
532. GatheringStorm
blindillusion @ 529.

As the Creator's avatar, of course it was Bela. As we saw in "Dogma", God can't speak directly to humans; it causes our heads to explode. lol
Tess Laird
533. thewindrose
Actually, it has never been cemented in stone that it was the Creator for #526. Although, we can get around that by saying that, RJ as the Creator wrote it.
Tess Laird
534. thewindrose
blindillusion - Narg - we love you!

Oh and subwoofer completed his trifecta - he had to take matters into his own hands.
Barry T
535. blindillusion

But of course. And I believe I speak for at least a small percentage of the crowd by saying I'd rather hear Bela speak than Alanis Morissette.
Rob Munnelly
536. RobMRobM
More obscure -- how about - "Your fortunes have apparently risen ."
Jacy Clark
537. Amalisa
"Lean back on your knife and let your tongue go free."
Sydo Zandstra
542. Fiddler
@Freelancer and Roy007:

Point taken on Erian. He didn't do it in the end, though. I always thought that part as initial rage after escaping.

About Rand attacking the soft spots, it's been a while since I read that part. But weren't Rand/LTT frantically attacking the spots because they were afraid that more sisters might join in again? I took it to be the ferocity of that surge that stilled the AS, which is why I called it a side effct. But as I said, it's been a few months since I finished LoC...

Here's a Quote to guess:
"Treasures. Dealings. Lots of things in books."

(I think I made that one too easy though)
James Jones
543. jamesedjones
542 Fiddler

Mat in the Great Holding in TSR.
Barry T
544. blindillusion
"I'll bet you get to run away a lot."

One of the reasons I liked this character for awhile. Complete LOL moment for me.
Sydo Zandstra
546. Fiddler

Basel Gill to Perrin, PoD


JEJ 543: Correct.
Barry T
547. blindillusion
1 "Life is a dream from which we all must wake before we can dream again."

2 "That could be a blessing or a curse, depending on how you look at it."

3 "I came across a saying in Arad Doman. 'The more women there are about, the softer a wise man steps.'"

548. Lily of the Valley

Great. Now that song has a whole different meaning for me. Like I didn't have ENOUGH WoT-RL parallels running through my head at any given time!


It's a mock-up of John Michael Montgomery's "Be My Baby Tonight". :)
Rob Munnelly
549. RobMRobM
536 was intended to be Rand to Darlin, so Amalisa wins a cookie.
Barry T
550. blindillusion
This site is amusing. Wonder if these people still read the series.
Barry T
552. blindillusion
@551 - Umm, he didn't say any.

@552-554 - Yep

Anyone for number 1?
James Jones
554. jamesedjones
547 blindillusion

#2 Mat to Rand (or just a general observation) at Cold Rocks Hold.

Not sure about this one.
Rob Munnelly
558. RobMRobM
Yea - guess I didn't get the spousal award for close calls.
Thomas Keith
559. insectoid
So this thread has become a trivia game? That's probably more interesting (but not as amusing) as the list of "Deranged WoT Fan" symptoms I started on the other thread...

Mind if I try one?

"I think something very wonderful or very terrible has happened today." "And I think I am afraid to learn which."
560. MasterAlThor
Men and fools fight when they should run, but I had no need to repeat myself....

The force runs deep in....(woops)
The old blood is strong....(aaaggghhh forget it)

Just have fun with the first one.
561. MasterAlThor


I know it is someone in Camelyn.
Rich Gold
563. richg25
GatheringStorm: If you go to your order on Amazon, you can change the shipping.

Or just get a status - which is what I'm going to go check ....

WhooHooo - Mine's SHIPPED - it's in Allentown! Wasn't that a billy joel song or something?
Alice Arneson
566. Wetlandernw
I'm trying not to get too excited about my shipping status... I'm tracking it on FedEx (yay F5!) and it says it's arrived at the local (sort of) FedEx location. However... I take it with a grain of salt. First, it said "Arrived at FedEx Location" at 3:18 p.m. today... but it said that at about 1:00 p.m. Hmmm. Is the time given in EDT, or were they anticipating? Second, we seem to always be at the very end of the run, so even though it goes "out for delivery" first thing in the morning, they might run out of time for their deliveries and take it back until the next day. I hate it when that happens. Well, anyway, it should arrive either tomorrow or Wednesday.

Unless it snows. Then it could be sometime next month. It will feel like it anyway.
Jacy Clark
567. Amalisa

Sumeko, when the flows from the Choedan Kal ended. She and Monaelle were performing the "caressing the child" weave on Elayne.
Richard Fife
568. R.Fife
Me, a certain book, and some gloating.

And I'll be down in Charleston, getting it signed by Team Jordan tomorrow. Woo Woo. I'll be sure to get pictures (all facing away from the shawl, don't worry).
Neill Smith
569. Lensman2
As most of us count the hours down to tomorrow and TGS, I thought I would pose a more light-hearted question based on the famous scene at Dumai's Wells that has provoked so much discussion. When I saw the last LotR movie The Return of the King there was a scene that made me immediately think of the ending at Dumai's Wells. I'm sure most of you are ahead of me now, but the scene is when the four hobbits start to bow to newly-crowned Aragon and he stops them saying "My friends you bow to no one". Then Aragon followed by all present from high to low kneels to the hobbits. Every time I see that scene it grabs me, and every time it makes me think of Dumai's Wells (and vice versa when rereading TLoC). The question I now pose is this.

1) What "simple" scene any where in TWoT (let's leave out TGS for now) do you think would produce the most intense emotional reaction for you?


2) What scene from an existing movie do you think invokes a similar emotional reaction or an opposite emotional reaction for you?
Jacy Clark
570. Amalisa
"In that case, I think I must go cut them loose."

This one may be too obscure, since it happened in an arc that a lot of people disliked.
Thomas Keith
571. insectoid
Amalisa @567: Very good! I didn't think anyone would remember something from CoT. ;)
Jacy Clark
572. Amalisa
Actually, I really enjoyed CoT... ;)
John Massey
573. subwoofer
Forget it R.Fife, after the posting on TGS preview we are onto you. There is no book, just some wiseacre lurking in the background waiting to Rickroll the sick and the old.

1. Ny kicking Mat.

2. BTiLC- Jack kissing Gracie Long unsolicited.

Alice Arneson
574. Wetlandernw
Gaul, referring to Chiad & Bain going out to snare rabbits. Is it cheating to use IdealSeek? ;)
Richard Fife
575. R.Fife
@569 Moiraine's "death" I think is the most powerful scene, especially followed by her letter to Rand. The certain near hopelessness she is facing and the calmness of it all. Just wow.

For a movie scene that impacts me similarly, I'd say end of The Last Samurai, where Katsumoto falls on his own blade after being otherwise fatally wounded by the machine gun. Kinda falls in the same as the end of LotR as the entire enemy army kneels in respect to the fallen samurai.

@573 Shhh, don't ruin my fun! Not everyone over there is over here and vice versa.
Jacy Clark
576. Amalisa

To this point (and it is subject to change tomorrow), there are two scenes that really grab me in the series. The first is the very end of "The Golden Crane". It is one of those outside pov's that RJ was particularly gifted at crafting. The three Malkieri jewel merchants, going about their daily business, expecting nothing out of the ordinary, and they suddenly come face to face with an Aes Sedai who is married to their uncrowned king and who changes their collective destiny in the space of a few minutes. I was all teary and shivery at the image of three grown men jumping up and down and shouting "the Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'dan!"

The second is "Honey in the Tea" I felt such a sense of satisfaction and of hope at the end, when the novices stood for Egwene, fetched her breakfast and provided her a cushion (which she pushed aside).
Byron Bakker
577. byronba
richg25 @563:

Yes, Allentown was a Billy Joel song.
According to Wikipedia it first appeared on his The Nylon Curtain album.
Jacy Clark
578. Amalisa

Good thing I went and checked the quote before trying to do it from memory. You might have run into a snare there... "snare", get it? hee hee!
Sydo Zandstra
579. Fiddler
Dear Customer,

Greetings from,

You can guess the rest ;) :D

@Wetlandernw, yes that is cheating... :P
Jacy Clark
580. Amalisa

Okay, this is how completely in the tGS-zone I am atm - completely missed the second part of your question.

I have to go waaaaaay back for a movie scene that evokes a strong visceral response in me. The response is a polar opposite from the feeling I have to the two WoT scenes.

In "Gone With the Wind", during the Siege of Atlanta, Scarlett is having to go for Dr. Meade because Melanie is in labor. She finds him in the railway yard, surrounded by soldiers who are wounded, dying, broiling in the hot sun. The camera pulls back slowly so that the viewer finally grasps the overwhelming numbers.
Barry T
581. blindillusion

1 - The scene in Rhuidean when Rand comes out of the crystal columns and see Mat hanging from the Tree of Life. When I was a kid I almost lost a friend of my in an accident involving a rope-swing over a river in my home town. Thankfully, like with Mat, someone was there who knew what to do. Still one of the scariest moments of my life 12 years later.

2 - As for a movie...I'd have to say the scene in V for Vendetta where V tells Evey that people should not fear their governments but governments should fear their people. I've always been a bit anti-establishment at heart (yeah, I the Army blah blah blah. I fight for my country, not the government.) While I enjoyed that whole movie, that one line made me sit up in my seat and think, “Well hell yeah!!”

--Not really a similiar reaction, but I don't get as emotionally attached to movies as I do to books, i.e., I've never cried because of something I saw in a movie but I can think of 3 books that produced tears.
Roger Powell
582. forkroot
I vote for the scene where Elayne and Avienda become first sisters. First, because it brings tears to my eyes whenever I read it. Second, because it features two naked hotties ;-)
Kristina Blake
583. kab1
I'd have to agree with Amalisa and say "the Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gaidon" gets the most emotional reaction out of me, for the exact reasons she stated.

As far as movies go, can't really pick a specific scene out of any that gets me going as emotionally as a book can. I just never get as close to the characters in a movie. I haven't seen Braveheart in forever (since HS!), but I do remember some of the battles (or lead ups to the battles) being pretty good and emotional.

Before I head off for cookies (passing the plate around), milk, and KoD I'd like to say that it's been so much fun being here on the reread with y'all for the past few months. I'm amazed by everyone's intellect, insights, and wit on all things WoT related and on other subjects, and life in general. You guys rock.
I'm off to speed read KoD (started earlier, it feels so weird to see it in print, I've been listening to the audiobooks for so long...). Catch you guys on the tGS thread!!!!!!! tomorrow! squeak!
584. CBeats

The scene in KoD where Romanda realizes who has killed Anaiya and Carlinya and that other Aes Sedai in the rebel camp. "We must order the official arrest of Delana and Halima immediately!" (or something to that affect)
It was so incredibly satisfying to hear those words.

The scene in KoD where Faile and her followers are encouraging Maighdin to grasp the Power. Also a powerful scene.

Powerful scene in a movie? The silent sequence in Up that shows the old man's life. I swear everyone in the theatre was crying at the end of that.

Good stuff!
585. MasterAlThor
Movie scene, I think if I am just going for emotional then it has to be The Incredibles when they get back to the city to fight the robot and Mr. Incredible tells Mrs. Incredible that he doesn't want her to fight cause he is scared to lose her again.

As a married man that choked me up. Kids saw dad cry. Lion King does the same, when Simba saw his father die.

Scene in WOT: Let's hop in the wayback machine and go to when Rand found out that he was basically adopted. Tam's fever. Hit me hard cause when I found out that my step dad wasn't my real father it sent me on a very long quest.

There ya go.

And I found out that B&N doesn't open until 10am tomorrow. So I will be an hour behind everyone on EST. Sux.
586. Freelancer
There are a veritable plethora, nay a cornucopia of scenes in WoT which are extremely powerful, and I'm not speaking of pure action, those are easy. Some for suspense, some for drama, some for intensity.

I knew I'd be reading the entire series when Rand was dragging Tam into town on Winternight. When he stopped, and the fade came slowly back along the road, Rand's heart could not have been beating harder than my own.

Moiraine shaming the Emond's Fielders with the history of Manetheren.

Rand's first dream of the White Tower, with the Myrddraal welcoming him when the door opens.

Rand and Mat at Four Kings, where Rand blows the wall open with lightning to get away.

Agelmar telling Lan's story at Fal Dara.

Fighting the Blight to get to the Eye.

Rand at Tarwin's Gap.

Loial singing to the tree where Someshta died.

Lan preparing Rand to meet the Amyrlin. Tai'Shar Manetheren! Then hearing from Moiraine about Tam's history and his birth.

Mat blowing the Horn of Valere. The heroes showing up was just icing.

There's ten monster scenes in less than two complete books. More to follow...
stefan warsink
587. grubber
free, plethora has negative connotations.. methinks a lot of powerful scenes is a good thing ;)

may you all find water and shade. grubber out.
Barry T
588. blindillusion
Another powerful scene that starts a projector in my mind every time I read it....

Rand walking into Barthanes's garden in tGH. Don't know, there's just something about our hero walking out into the stary night, ready to face anything.
589. CBeats
Another awesome moment was in Winter's Heart when Cyndane fights Alivia: "The net unraveled. The woman did not do anything - it just unraveled." Or something like that. It's really a fascinating moment when Cyndane finds out how formidable an opponent she is fighting.
John Massey
590. subwoofer
- For me it was when Tuon sees Mat for Mat- not Tylin's Toy, but a lion stalking on the high plains. Too cool. It was like- Finally, a female seeing Mat for who he is, Mat Cauthon, a$$ kicker.

Barry T
591. blindillusion

To get your closer to 600 I'm going to completely agree with you.

Especially because EVERYONE saw how bada$$ Mat was in those sections. Including the equally BADA$$ Deathwatch Guard.
Tasneem Gould
592. Latecomer
Subwoofer - I agree. I loved the Onion comment from Tuon - and not only does she see how dangerous he is, she approves wholeheartedly!

So awesome when you see the other women constantly dismissing or even deprecating people with 'battle skills'.

closer to 600 now... :)
602. Lily of the Valley
Emotional WoT Moment:

When Moiraine tackles Lanfear through the redstone doorway.

Emotional Movie Moment:

The scene were Wash is impaled in Serenity.

Both were so sudden I didn't even have a chance to react. It was just over, and you're left sitting there and not blinking and thinking, "No way....there's no way that just happened."
Rob Munnelly
603. RobMRobM
Moiraine telling Nyn that she not only uses the power but will be the powerful living AS - if she chooses to do it.

Mat's map scene with Lan in TFOH where he gets sucked into the battle plan and starts tossing ideas around, to his horror.

Tam asking Perrin if Rand is the DR and Perrin saying nothing we can do about it now.
Roger Powell
604. forkroot
I've mentioned this one before ... the scene in Winter's Heart where Lan is dangling off the side of the roof with Rand holding him. Lan tells Rand to let go and Rand replies "when the Sun turns green". Gives me chills ... for the bond between them and for all that is good about Rand underneath the hardness.
Marina Brindley
605. WhereWomenGlow
Most emotive scene in the series so far for me is Nyn breaking her block - made me totally bawl the first time, and I still look forward to it on every re-read, and tear up every time even though I know what's coming..
606. CBeats
"Tam asking Perrin if Rand is the DR and Perrin saying nothing we can do about it now. "

I just read that in KoD and wow, what a moment.
sandi vogel
607. sinfulcashew
Emotional Movie Moment:
The scene were Wash is impaled in Serenity.
I kept wondering how they were going to get him out of the situation. He just COULDN'T die!

WOT moment:
I still stick with Perrin 'questioning' one of the Shaido Aiel.
I, for some reason was soooo shocked, I put the book down and turned pale (I'm sure) Then I came back and reread it later just to be sure I read it right!
It seemed out of character for him. But in retrospect, thinking of his behavior after Faile was taken, I guess it is kind of 'logical'?

Of course you all have good memories of all the special moments, and I agree with all.
Nyn leaving Lan far away from his intended destination.
Elieda(I know-it's how the reader pronounced it) when she marched in and took over from Siuan. It happened so fast. Total unbelief.
Moraine 'dying'.
And of course, all the already mentioned mis-communication, and secret keeping, and somewhat immature reactions to each others ideas, etc.

I am going to get one of my cholesteral busting cookies. (Oatmeal, walnuts, cinnamon and semi-sweet chips)Maybe even make somemore coffee even if it is 10:25pm PST Yum!

And for some reason I want to share what my daughter is doing tomorrow.
She was found to have a 'growth' in one of her sinuses. They are going to remove it tomorrow and biopsy it. I will be taking care of grandchildren and seeing how things go with her.
As a side funny she will have to wear a 'pad' under her nose for a while. Her brother did when he had to have some work done in the same area.
We have laughed about this.
10 year old daughter doesn't want to know anything about it. Too late. Mother thinks it was right to tell her. I'm still on the fence.
They were arguing this morning-alot.
Oh well, no one else to unload on, so thanks`!
Roger Powell
608. forkroot
WoT is our escape, and a fabulous one, but RL is so much more important, really. Through personal experience, I believe in answered prayer for healing. I have said a prayer for your daughter.

Please let us know how it the biopsy goes. And, oh yeah, savor those multi-generational experiences!
Alice Arneson
609. Wetlandernw
sinfulcashew @607 - So sorry to hear about your daughter. I hope it's totally benign! Let us know how it goes. Hang in there with the grand-kids; tough for them to cope, so just be there for them.

And now, I think I'll go to bed; I'll be back in a few days after I've finished the new book. Happy times, y'all! Enjoy the read - see you on the back page!
Jacy Clark
610. Amalisa

Absolutely, prayers for your daughter, your grandchildren and for you!

And the cookies sound marvelous!!
sandi vogel
611. sinfulcashew
Thank for the prayers!!!!!
I know she is covered with them, even though she is against 'that' kind of stuff. HA, she'll come around!

And as for the cookies; I invented them as my cholesterol was high and I don't want to take the drugs.....
So I opted for diet things that were lowering.
Of course, I have gained 5 to 10 lbs I think. But my levels are alot lower.
Oh well, if it ain't this, it's that!

How would Siuan say it? Something about silverpike and fishbait, I'm sure.
Does anyone say 'blood hell' in WOT?
I just see Ron W. saying it.
stefan warsink
612. grubber
@ sinfulcashew: I don't think they have a hell as such, so I won't back you on that one. the bloody hell's that ron throws out are hilarious for me, btw.

and on siuan: it probably sounds too heavy if you say making a hole in the boat to help bailing, so I'll get back to you on that..
613. Freelancer

Oh, we don't burn it. We disintegrate it! What I want to know is, what kind of chemicals were being consumed by the guy who decided it was a good idea to bombard falling droplets of molten tin with a pulse of laser light? Even our physicists are on the razor's edge with this thing.


The Fires of Heaven, Trapped


Thom to Rand, Cairhien, Foregate.


Mat, to Moiraine, in the Great Holding of the Stone, explaining how he learned about the doorway ter'angreal.


Here's an extra to throw on the pile; "Heavenly Father, let your Will be done in all things great and small. Please guide the hands that care for this daughter, encourage her family and surround them with your love. Use this time to show your grace and glory to those who have not yet known you. Thank you for the promise of eternal hope, in Jesus' precious name.

Good night all. Back when I've been twice through the Storm.
John Massey
614. subwoofer
@M A T- thanks for the thought;)- but it is not the destination, it is the journey. I am just happy when we reach these milestones on the posts as it means there are things to say and people have the courage enough to actually say it.

The big bug killer coming out today has brought tons of people to this site-"long time lurker, first time poster"- that would of otherwise stayed in the background. It is good to share this with other people. Makes the experience special and there is always things said that I had not considered so a new perspective is wonderful, affirmation that I was not wayyy off base is a good feeling too.

When our posts hover around the 1 hunny to 150 mark, it is like a slow news day. When somebody drops the g-bomb or the s-bomb and we have 2 hunny posts inside 4 hours, it is an awesome feeling. Some of the posts grind, but on the whole it rocks to hear all the views.

Here's to seeing what the next few days bring!

Edit- @sinful- Woosh! Momentous times ahead for you. I pray that all is well. Thank you for sharing and know that our thoughts are now divided, with the book but also on your daughter! Hopefully you got some sleep last night. I believe it will be well. May you find water and shade:)

Edit- the shade went out the window! Our Leigh has posted a spoiler thread!
"Et tu, Brute?"

Kristina Blake
615. kab1
@sinful, sending warm thoughts to you and your daughter today, I hope it turns out to be nothing serious. I knew someone who had polyps growing in his nose, annoying, needing surgical removal and aftercare, but nothing serious. I hope that is the case for your family.
Thomas Garst
616. Garstzilla
Ok got my new book but I have to work; lunch time where for art thou.
sandi vogel
617. sinfulcashew
Thank you all again for the prayers!
I don't expect her to be home for a few hours.
Granddaughter wants to take the removed item to school for 'show and tell'.
Her Mom told her she would put it under her pillow for her. (they have a weird sense of humor)

537. Amalisa
"Lean back on your knife and let your tongue go free."

If I missed the answer above, sorry.
I just read it in the last day and can't find the exact place, but isn't it in TFoH? Said by Amathera, as panarch? to Nynaeve and Elayne?

I am going to check on my copy of "THE BOOK", to see just where it is!

Thanks again again!!!!!
Claire Edwards
618. ClaireBelle
Argh, my copy of TGS is still in transit - it's taking all my willpower not to read Leigh's spoiler thread. I've gotten to the jump bit about three times and closed the page...
*twitches violently*
619. alreadymadwithdepletedtgs
Oh irony of ironies...

It turns out TGS has been out for the past week at my locale. And now I go hunting for it only to find out it's out of stock :(
Roger Powell
620. forkroot
That is cruel and unusual!

This morning is taking forever to drag on. Not sure how many chapters I will be able sneak in during lunch ... it's a bit of a walk to the bookstore and back.

tick, tick, *twitch*, tick....
a a-p
621. lostinshadow

hope all goes well on the big day, thoughts are with you and your family. not religious so not sure prayers on my part will help but happy to send many positive thoughts (plenty of which are floating around on tor today) and good karma your daughter's way.

on a completely self-involved thread
my book has finally been shipped - much international travel to come but at least the journey has begun

will now have cookie to avoid spoiler posts lurking in a parallel universe
sandi vogel
622. sinfulcashew
According to my tracking thingy, it should be delivered TODAY!!!!!
I'm tho exthited!
Wasn't expecting it for a couple more days.
Ron Garrison
623. Man-0-Manetheran
I just checked on my Amazon shipment, and my book is doing about as much Traveling as our hero! Shipment originated in Coffeyville, Kansas - went south to Tulsa, Oklahoma - back north to Wichita, Kansas and then further north to Salina, Kansas. Hopefully it is headed west on I-70 to Denver at this moment. Delivery expected tomorrow.
Rob Munnelly
624. RobMRobM
Got mine - I had to go to New Britain CT for a meeting, and picked it up at the Manchester Barnes and Noble on the way home. I'm at home and I read the prologue finally (Bela a Foresaken? I never would have guessed that's why Moridin had that extra chair) but now have to get work done with reading mixed in during breaks.

Good wishes to those in the waiting camp. Tai'shar Best of luck to you sinful as well.

Free at 613 - nice guess on mine but it's Rand to King Darlin in KoD. The bracketed omission of name AND TITLE] was the key clue.
Ron Garrison
625. Man-0-Manetheran
One Hand Rand

So, in KoD during the attack of the Trollocs, LTT is trying to channel and asks Rand to raise his hands in order for him to complete and direct the weaves.

Now that Semirhage has blasted away one of those hands, how will that handicap our hero?

Do we know if there are any weaves that require two hands?

OK, I'm just jones-ing for my TGS...
Tasneem Gould
626. Latecomer
Sinful Cashew - hope everything works out OK.

Re. Wot Moments : Thinking about these just made me realise I must be a secret romatic type. So many of them are to do with Wuv - When Lan first admits his love to Nyn, when Rand finally catches up to Aviendha, even when Tuon finally sees Matt as a lion (I like to think this is when she finally start falling in love with him) and of course the Thom/ Moraine story that is not yet complete, the grief and loss of Birgette when she cannot find Gaidal...

God I am a sop.

And M-o-M - I'm still waiting for my copy of TGS to be delivered, and trying to think of something else too.
Roger Powell
627. forkroot
I HAVE the book now ... but I'm back working. This afternoon is going to d-r-a-g...

I did manage to read Chapter 3. All it did was whet my appetite further.

Can't wait until the end of the work day!
Tasneem Gould
628. Latecomer
Forkroot... you are NOT helping... >|


I have to wait till I get home to even find out if it's come.. on the way I drop off DVDs, pick up son, make dinner when I get home... do kiddy stuff till 8.00 when he goes to bed - then I ignore hubby for the rest of the evening :)

Here's hoping, anyway...
Rob Munnelly
629. RobMRobM
@628 - but what about your twu wuv with your hubby tonight? What's more important, TGS or that? R
Roger Powell
630. forkroot
Tonight sounds like a great night to let the local pizza parlor deliver dinner. Just trying to help.

At least you won't have to wrestle ignored hubby for the book. I wonder what dual-WoT-addicted couples are doing?
Roger Powell
631. forkroot
OK - leaving this thread now. You'll find me on Leigh's spoilerific thread a few days from now as I will be reading TGS every evening and hoping the work portions of my days go by quickly.
632. Freelancer
Amalisa@537 & Sinfulcashew@617

That's in LoC, Queen Tylin to Elayne and Nynaeve. Chapter title is, I believe, Leaning on the Knife, go figure.

Since I see Leigh has posted again she has her spoiler thread up, so I figured it was safe to continue lurking here a bit. Kinda masochistic looking to see who has their fix already and who is still twitching. I'm in a very weird place mentally, myself. No twitching, which is good because I'd be losing it all too quickly, just kind of numb in a way. Doesn't affect anything else about my day, just when I'm thinking about what I'm not reading yet.

At the same time, knowing most of you will be over on the spoiler thread soon will give me a tiny hollow feeling, but I've always been a misfit, so it's nothing new.

Sinfulcashew, I'll put a few of those wish-they-weren't idle moments to work keeping the prayers active for your daughter. May you have good news soon if not already.
Tasneem Gould
633. Latecomer
RobM - Hubby knows that WOT is one of the twu wuvs - he started me on them - so thats OK. Besides he has his guitar to keep him busy.

Forkroot - I've already warned him that the book was delivered and he says "Feed the kid something, and I'll handle the rest". Good man.

Itching to get home!

Free - I feel for you - knowing that the book is right there but having promised not to read - that must be so hard. *hugs*
a a-p
634. lostinshadow
Free- happy to keep you company in the non-spoiler zone for a little longer at least while my copy travels through various time zones
635. Freelancer

It's not so bad as that. The book is maybe 18 miles away. I know where it is, know it's waiting for me, but it isn't in arm's reach. It's my own fault, really. In a way, I'm discharging toh, and it would shame me greatly to sidestep that. Besides, when you have lived at sea for months at a time, being able to wait patiently for something for a few short weeks is no great feat.

This too shall pass.


Very kind of you. Maybe I'll read Elantris and Mistborn again to pass some time.
a a-p
636. lostinshadow
how did you enjoy those? can't find any of Sanderson's books where I am but hoping to go to the States in a few months and wondering if it's worth lugging them accross oceans or should I just check them out from the library and read them while I'm there.
a a-p
637. lostinshadow
speaking of lugging books, does anyone have any advice on the best electronic book reader format? I've heard of kindle and sony e-reader, any thoughts or advice re those or others

gotta switch to e-format, can't afford the international shipping fees, terror of loss at customs, airline fines for overweight luggage (my husband and I once tried to sneak through close to 60 books in two suitcases) and even setting all that aside not much space left in house.
Rob Munnelly
638. RobMRobM
636 - mistborn is very enjoyable, especially the first book; elantris has a great set up and many enjoyable parts, but is not as good as mistborn. I enjoyed warbreaker as well, though not quite as much as mistborn, and the alcatraz books for young adults are a hoot (one tease: everyone in alcatraz's family has a bizarre talent: showing up late, falling down, getting lost and waking up ugly are a few of them -- and actually very powerful when put into practice).

p.s. 2/3 of way through TGS. I'll hold off on spoilers.
John Massey
639. subwoofer
Whew! Got possession of the place. No Internet/cable hook up until Thurs so can only do this at work. Got the bug killer! Walked in to Costco and practically stole the thing! Beautiful place where things are had at a fraction of the price.

Irony of my situation is that I might as well be Freelancer in that I have the book but very little time to read it. When the dust settled, I did not get to crack the book until 2300 last night. Too much of the real world to deal with right now. Duty is as heavy as a mountain...

Not to worry folks, I will be here all week to entertain us with my quick wit and snappy patter... Yah, whatever. When I get techy enough I may switch over to e format or audio but for now, there is nothing like curling up beside my fireplace, on the floor, as all my furniture is 30km away from me, and start reading.

Sigh... not going on that other thread. Last time I was there, I was going to gouge my eyes out at the horror that was spoilers. Dropping last chapter hints in the first 10 comments! GAHHHHH!

640. Freelancer
Brandon's writing is clearly influenced by his having been a WoT reader before becoming an author himself. Certainly he is not a Robert Jordan clone, but there are notable similarities in some aspects.

Elantris is one of the better single-volume fantasy stories I've ever read. That it is Brandon's least mature work is simply amazing. Anybody who doesn't like it is clearly doloken.

Mistborn is in a class of it's own in many ways. I've read many stories with magic systems, but none, ever, with one so accessible to the reader. You can really imagine yourself being able to put the abilities to use. The actions made possible by the abilities are bound by natural and physical laws, which makes them all the more realistic. Aside from that, the characters and settings are well designed, with enough detail to let your imagination paint a fully realized image of each scene. Self-realizations, surprise twists, identity crises, events of great and small drama, are each handled deftly. So basically, it's ok. ;-)


Big step! Glad things are moving your way, just stay prepared. That light at the end of the tunnel, it could be an oncoming locomotive.
Rob Munnelly
641. RobMRobM
Free - re Mistborn, I particularly enjoyed the party scenes. Pride and Prejudice and Allomancy. R
Roger Powell
642. forkroot
It's me ... couldn't stay away :-)

Made it through 1/3 of TGS last night before sleep became a priority. Now I'm counting the hours again today until I escape back to the hotel room to resume reading.

Even only 1/3 through, I am very happy with the book. Sure there are differences in style, but for every Jordan nuance we might have lost, we get something from from Sanderson's perspective.

Confidential to RobMRobM: You misread that scene where Bela was "outed" as a Forsaken. Actually, Bela has infiltrated the Forsaken, and she's so good she fooled you too. Don't worry, Bela walks (and trots, and canters) in the Light.
643. syncap8
Re: Sanderson's books, I've enjoyed them all (havn't read Alcatraz), but my favorite has got to be Mistborn ... especially the ending of book 2!

I'm staying away from the release threads for fear of spoilers, had to leave for Tokyo just before TGS was released ... anyone aware of a english book store in Tokyo that would sell it? It would make the 13 hour flight home a pleasure ....
Alice Arneson
644. Wetlandernw
Just for the update... I got my copy yesterday, much to my surprise. Didn't even have time to crack it until this afternoon, and then not much. *sigh* But today I had to take my boy in for a neck x-ray, tomorrow I have to go in for the beginning of a root canal replacement, and before I go to bed tomorrow night I have to finish a medieval dress for my daughter. So... guess what I'm doing Friday night!!!!! And Saturday... and every other moment I can snatch until I finish it. My beloved and blessed husband is being incredibly understanding about it, and doing everything he can to take over my duties so I can get the sewing done and have a little time to read too.

Sure am glad the non-spoiler thread is still going!! I refuse to even touch the spoiler thread until I've finished my own read. Now if only I could find a way to read during the root canal... Might have to resort to Harry Potter on the ipod...
Thomas Keith
646. insectoid
Now that I've finished TGS (and Leigh's spoiler thread) I feel strangely non-twitchy for the next re-read post. Is something wrong with me?? ;)
a a-p
647. lostinshadow
Wetlandernw, hope your son is ok and your root canal is over as quickly and painlessly as possible.

thanks all re views on Sanderson.

still no book in my horizon just yet so will stick around here
j p
648. sps49
subwoofer @639- yep, Costco rules. I was actually at Target first (shopping run, they are nearby, and my supposed friend didn't see the need to go to Costco 1st!), but they didn't have the book at all.

Page 138 so far, but it's bedtime.

Past bedtime.

At least it has finally been revealed that RFife killed Asmo.
John Massey
649. subwoofer
Ahhhh! I knew it! Flippin' yellow shawl wearing so and so... Motoring through the book as best I can between constant errands and honey-dos. Hoping to finish by tomorrow. Then it's go time!

Sigh, it is a relief to finally get here! The Storm was huge in coming. Now all is calm in the Eye...

650. GreenishYellowAjah
I'm going to the book signing and interview tonight near Baltimore. Is anyone else from here going to that one? Does anyone have questions they want me to ask and post the answers to if I can get called on during the Q&A session? (no spoilers in your questions, please, I haven't opened the book because I'm being good and finishing my re-read of the others first)
James Jones
651. jamesedjones
646 insectoid
Now that I've finished TGS (and Leigh's spoiler thread) I feel strangely non-twitchy for the next re-read post. Is something wrong with me?? ;)
I feel exactly the same way. So, probably, yes.
652. Freelancer
Anytime you feel the same way as jej, you should be worried.
653. Freelancer

I've considered taking up my "spare" time (as if I really had any) by going back through all of Leigh's reread posts and cataloguing her witty Book/Movie/TV/Musical references.

Starting a new kind of poll just seems fruitless, but a task of some kind would help...
654. Freelancer
Ok, two things that just aren't right...

- Three hours between comments on the latest reread thread, during primetime hours.

- Not one, single, solitary WoT-related post is among the TOR Hot Bookmarks! Sacrilege.
Roger Powell
655. forkroot
Freelancer - It's probably because everyone has their nose in the book (sorry, I know this is rubbing it in). OTOH, we'll all be jealous of you when you start it because we'll all be done and you'll still have the delicious "first-read" experience to go.

I'm over 2/3 through now, and getting ready to leave the customer site and head for the airport. No problem finding something to read on the plane today!
sandi vogel
656. sinfulcashew
An up date:
Daughter is fine so far, still no results. Big cyst
and polyp with 'deviated septum'. Still not quite sure what that is. Son had one too.
She has pictures.
I haven't seen them yet! ew ew ew!

I was surprised to receive my beloved book on thursday. I ordered it on the 23rd, fast delivery.
I am only half way through, as I like to savor the flavor and chew on the details.
Hmmm, sounds kind of gross? I don't want to go the Leighs spoiler page until I am finished.
There is sooooo much going on that I don't want to spoil it by running through it too fast.
I plan to reread it again when finished.
I miss the more colorful details of RJ's descriptions, but it is okay.
By the way, I hope that isn't a spoiler??????
Let me know if so and I will sit in the corner for awhile (reading of course) and no cookies either.
sandi vogel
657. sinfulcashew
Oops, PS. I forgot to mention that my pc is acting up and I keep getting the BSoD.
My pc literate son is the fixer upper and what with gigs and day job and fairly new baby, and a few other things, he has a very full plate.
So, I don't know when I will be able to keep up here. Some days this thing will be okay and then it will do the BSoD every time it is turned on.

I think I will try giving it cake?
Don't ask as I am tired at the moment and ......zzzz
a a-p
658. lostinshadow
been trying to finish up some work so that I actually have time to read TGS when I finally get it.

I think it's become a victim of the UK postal strike, have no idea where it's got to.

mucho jealous of all youse who've got it and by the end of this weekend have probably finished it and gone off to the spoiler page.

and my roof is leaking...again...after having had it fixed less than a year ago...

need chocolate
j p
659. sps49
A new re-read post tomorrow would be a happy surprise, but I'm not holding my breath.

And now I find I miss the HMS Stubbington... *snif*
sandi vogel
660. sinfulcashew
Love it!!!!!
Some shocks and surprises!!!!!
stefan warsink
661. grubber
haha, great to see people are keeping this one alive, I'm proud that you have!
I'll check back every now and then, but haven't got much to say..

@ sps: I thought Leigh would not be doing rerad for something like a month, but an update would certainly be nice ;)

actually, the quote is at the end of her piece, quoted for convenience: "I don’t have an exact timeline in mind, but the hiatus will be for at least a couple of weeks, and possibly as long as a month. I’ll keep you guys posted on when the triumphal return shall take place."

so there's that.
j p
662. sps49

But it feels like a month already, and my selfish inner child believes that should count.
stefan warsink
663. grubber
same here sps, same here... and I think it's not selfish, the amount of people we share these posts with. childish however? :)
stefan warsink
664. grubber
and if I'm the only one here anyway..
stefan warsink
665. grubber
I might just go ahead and do a subwoofer...
stefan warsink
666. grubber
for post six hunnie and sixty six!!


hmm. ok. well, walk along people. nothing to see here.

*shuffles back to work*
667. Adam E.
I would have agreed with you about Lord of Chaos having the worst cover in the series for the longest time, but the Gathering Storm has recently stolen the bottom honors. Much as I had loved the Gathering Storm (as much or more than Lord of Chaos?), I think its cover is ugly as hell. Both taste-wise and in terms of skill; usually, Sweet is at least technically competent and gets the proportions right. That's not even the case for the newest cover. Such a shame.

As for Dumais''s never really been one of my favorite scenes, actually. A lot of people praise it but I've never included it among the best moments (I would point to the Aiel history, the ending of the Great Hunt, the cleansing of Saidin for a few of those).
John Massey
668. subwoofer
@grubber- you are not alone- am waiting patiently for a new post- fresh fodder so to speak. Now that the big book is out, it will be interesting to see some view points as we have a new story arc and conclusions. There will be some changing and skewing of opinions. Perhaps a pre and post tGS commentary. I know that I am reconsidering much of what I have said as the end result with Rand and his relationships all have new dynamics.

I liked DW but it is not my be all and end all. Too many wolves suffer:(. The Golden Crane will always get my vote. It was pure awesome and after reading that chapter, I really wanted to go out and take over the world. Like the first time I saw Last Crusade, left an impression on me.

Like in the spoiler post I see I am too late here. I did so want to have my comment be 667- the neighbor of the beast.

sandi vogel
669. sinfulcashew
An update:
Daughter is recuperating fine with a lot of pain and having to do weird things.....Anyone ever heard of a Netipot?

AND clean of any nasty bugs. YaWhooo!

Am on my second read of TGS.
It is so incredible!!!!!

Thank you to all of you who gave notice and prayers, and well wishing!
Much appreciated.

Well, off to the 'other' site.
Trying to catch up with all those comments, good luck to me? HA

Oh, if Leigh should put up a new post where will we be notified? Here or there or.....?

Also, as son has physical possession of my pc, I don't know when I will be back to check on things. So, love to all and enjoy!
Jacy Clark
670. Amalisa
Oooh... the irrigation thing?? Bless her heart! It's good for her, true, but deuced uncomfortable! Or I found it so, anyway.

Back in the day, I was a singer, and suffered terribly from allergies. My voice coach recommended sinus irrigation for several days prior to a singing engagement. I was not as consistent with it as I should have been, mainly because I hate the feeling of water running from my nose down the back of my throat. If your daughter is one of the lucky ones who can swim underwater, face up, and not feel like she's drowning, she probably won't have a problem with it!

Great news that the polyps and other things were clean!

The spoiler board is at well over a thousand posts now so, yeah, good luck with reading them all! The book itself would probably be shorter! *lol*
Tess Laird
671. thewindrose
About the cover - my husband saw me reading this book one time, and gasped in suprise. I asked him what was up, and he asked when I had swiched over to romance novels. I was just like - you don't know how many things are wrong with what you just said.
Any ways... I will miss saying "That's a load of choss!" I hope we can keep that one going forward(which I hope happens soon?)...
Marcus W
672. toryx
Just posting to say that not only have I not read TGS yet, I haven't even bought it yet. I'm still faithfully finishing my original re-read of the WoT books (started CoT today) and since I have other things to do and other books to read it'll probably still be a while before I finish the re-read and move on to the new book.
Jeff Weston
673. JWezy
Toryx, I'm with you, though farther behind. I am mid FOH now, and expecting TGS Christmas morning, so I have some catching up to do.

I must say it is very nice of all of you to keep the spoilage under control. Much appreciated by those of us who are on the slow boat, but still enjoying the re-read.

Oddly, I am also expecting the new Hitchhikers Guide book And Another Thing. Must be a good year for Posthumous Publishing...
Ron Garrison
674. Man-0-Manetheran
About half way through TGS. I'm savoring each bit. Re. the cover: Oh, for sure, worst yet. Don't know which female that is supposed to be, but she is having a major mascara meltdown. Check it with a magnifying glass. It is even worse!

While waiting for TGS I re-read New Spring. It was my first re-read of that book and wow, it seemed like I had never read it before. Hopefully when this re-read thread resumes, Leigh will include it.
675. Bored at Work
I am also doing the re-read of the other books first. I was hoping to just follow along with Leigh, but alas, now I must do go it on my own now. Plan is to be caught up in time to get TGS when it releases in paperback(anyone got a date on that?). I have the others in paperback and would like to keep the volume symetrical. I did the repurchase of hard covers with the harry potter books, but dont really want to get duplicates of all these books.

But will I be able to hold out, especially with the next two books....methinksnot :)
stefan warsink
676. grubber
@ subwoofer: the devil's neighbour lives at 668, 667 is across the street. so you're good!
677. Silvertip
@669 sinfulcashew, great to hear your daughter is doing well. Do tell her to keep up with the rinses, yucky though they be. I had sinus surgery a few years ago and kept a nice clean recovery *until* I started slacking on the rinse. Then things went South. It's worth it!
678. Elennor
Ahhh I finally caught up with the re-read!! But I'm still planning on finishing them all before reading TGS, so I guess I'll eventually have to refrain myself from reading the posts to avoid spoilers :(
John Fitzingo
679. Xandar01
I finished COT earlier this week. Started KOD, but coaching and work is taking up so much of my time. I hope to have KOD finished in the next couple of weeks so I can start TGS. It's so hard to stay away from all those spoilers.
680. birgit
posting statistics up to the end of LoC (tGS not included)

- different spellings of usernames are counted separately
- punctuation is counted as words

top 50 posters by number of comments
username;comments;words;average words per comment

1: subwoofer;763;105604;138.0
2: alreadymad... (all);669;84207;125.0
3: Freelancer;602;144195;239.0
4: Wetlandernw;553;99399;179.0
5: R.Fife;529;70143;132.0
6: RobMRobM;500;59816;119.0
7: jamesedjones;447;33050;73.0
8: thewindrose;415;41017;98.0
9: Randalator;332;60927;183.0
10: UncrownedKing;304;25998;85.0
11: toryx;300;56520;188.0
12: Lannis;286;44253;154.0
13: sinfulcashew;257;24980;97.0
14: forkroot;235;30547;129.0
15: Fiddler;223;32281;144.0
16: Shimrod;219;24933;113.0
17: Lsana;218;45877;210.0
18: tonka;212;28276;133.0
19: HArai;211;24851;117.0
20: gagecreedlives;207;23674;114.0
21: Wolfmage;200;71926;359.0
22: Isilel;195;64080;328.0
23: GatheringStorm;194;16036;82.0
24: odigity;191;29249;153.0
25: Samadai;190;10513;55.0
26: alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed;186;31831;171.0
27: SteelBlaidd;179;44048;246.0
28: hoping;179;15028;83.0
29: sps49;173;13583;78.0
30: MasterAlThor;165;14227;86.0
31: J.Dauro;147;18287;124.0
32: aiel1219;146;23678;162.0
33: bchurch;143;15520;108.0
34: birgit;139;26634;191.0
35: CalaLily;135;19429;143.0
36: leighdb;128;11749;91.0
37: lmelior;125;17269;138.0
38: drewlovs;125;29931;239.0
39: darxbane;122;19154;157.0
40: PeteP;121;24236;200.0
41: kab1;120;19379;161.0
42: anthonypero;113;13339;118.0
43: hoping to be of the blood;113;10430;92.0
44: Seanie;106;8789;82.0
45: Siuanfan;105;22225;211.0
46: Aegnor;105;8964;85.0
47: elvyelvy;103;13140;127.0
48: Rebecca Starr;101;24745;245.0
49: HurinSmells;100;13351;133.0
50: Eswana;97;18629;192.0

top 50 posters by number of words
username;words;comments;average words per comment
1: Freelancer;144195;602;239.0
2: subwoofer;105604;763;138.0
3: Wetlandernw;99399;553;179.0
4: alreadymad... (all);84207;669;125.0
5: Wolfmage;71926;200;359.0
6: R.Fife;70143;529;132.0
7: Isilel;64080;195;328.0
8: Randalator;60927;332;183.0
9: RobMRobM;59816;500;119.0
10: toryx;56520;300;188.0
11: Lsana;45877;218;210.0
12: Lannis;44253;286;154.0
13: SteelBlaidd;44048;179;246.0
14: thewindrose;41017;415;98.0
15: jamesedjones;33050;447;73.0
16: Fiddler;32281;223;144.0
17: alreadymadwhensaidinwascleansed;31831;186;171.0
18: forkroot;30547;235;129.0
19: drewlovs;29931;125;239.0
20: odigity;29249;191;153.0
21: tonka;28276;212;133.0
22: birgit;26634;139;191.0
23: UncrownedKing;25998;304;85.0
24: sinfulcashew;24980;257;97.0
25: Shimrod;24933;219;113.0
26: HArai;24851;211;117.0
27: Rebecca Starr;24745;101;245.0
28: PeteP;24236;121;200.0
29: aiel1219;23678;146;162.0
30: gagecreedlives;23674;207;114.0
31: Siuanfan;22225;105;211.0
32: CalaLily;19429;135;143.0
33: kab1;19379;120;161.0
34: darxbane;19154;122;157.0
35: Eswana;18629;97;192.0
36: J.Dauro;18287;147;124.0
37: lmelior;17269;125;138.0
38: Roxinos;16234;33;491.0
39: GatheringStorm;16036;194;82.0
40: bchurch;15520;143;108.0
41: elroyskimms;15062;67;224.0
42: hoping;15028;179;83.0
43: sarcastro;14622;62;235.0
44: MasterAlThor;14227;165;86.0
45: sps49;13583;173;78.0
46: HurinSmells;13351;100;133.0
47: anthonypero;13339;113;118.0
48: jafco;13213;58;227.0
49: elvyelvy;13140;103;127.0
50: Sidetrack'd;13093;43;304.0

EDIT: corrected numbers
John Massey
681. subwoofer
What the deuce?! I didn't crack top 50 on either list? That's what I get for being as brief as possible on my posts. I'll try to get more wordy but I have a habit of being blunt and that cuts out a lot of dialog. This is what comes of being the neighbor of the beast;)

@thewindrose-I think you have pinned down what grinds me and Master Al'Thor about the covers- it looks like they had Fabio posing for the cover of some of these. Especially Load of Choss, it had Fabio written all over it.

Bottom line for TGS- we miss Leigh- so you guys are missing nothing on that post. One brief post is not enough to truly break down the huge book. Not even close. Seriously need to have a chapter by chapter breakdown and then discussion. Hopefully we do it the right way and go in sequence and then tackle the big bug killer.

682. birgit
EDIT: I corrected the statistics.
John Massey
683. subwoofer
Hmmmm- If you click on my icon on this post you can get to my profile and at the bottom is recent comments. Click on view all and that is a list of all my ramblings. Sniff! Not in the top fifty- tugs braid.

stefan warsink
684. grubber
not in the top 50?
as far as I can see you're #1 and 2 on the two lists above sub..

I'm going to see how far I was removed from that top 50, although I think it's only fair to exclude the spoileriffic post from the stats ;)

edit: I only have 58 comments. I thought I had way more :P
guess I'm not as prolific as I thought. at least it's different from other communities I participate in.
John Massey
685. subwoofer
@Grubber Birgit did an edit.

Sniff, sniff, first I would like to thank the Academy...

Seriously folks- thank you for tolerating me and my rants and for dealing with my quirks:) My wife gives me "time outs" for blathering to much so I know I can be a handful. And for dealing with my d &p- in'. My drink of choice these days is mead. This blog is nice in that we can disagree about things but still maintain a sense of decorum... after the dust settles and the incendiary device is safely discharged.

Thankfully we have a bunker with a foosball table and a hot tub.

Oh- and thank you birgit for putting in the time to amass these stats:)

Jacy Clark
686. Amalisa

As one archivist to another... girl, I'm impressed!!
Alice Arneson
687. Wetlandernw
birgit @680 - YOU ROCK!! Excellent work. Wall-o-Text... the subtitle to commentary on Wheel of Time. What great company to be in. I love this place. :) And these people. Thanks!

Oh, and for those working on TGS and thinking about the hundreds of comments to work through on the open spoiler thread... please don't try to read all the comments before you post there. It's nearing 1400 (probably get there tonight), and while there's some interesting discussion, there's a lot of blather as well. Whatever you do, don't worry about repeating what someone has already said - if you do, you'll probably be the twenty-seventh (or so) to do so, and if you don't, yippee! Just jump in, and then if you find something interesting in the new comments coming up, go back and scan through to find out what's going on. (Seriously, it took me almost a week to slog through all the comments. Unless you're as OC as I am, it's not worth your time.)
Sean Banawnie
688. Seanie
Birgit: damn , I hope you had a program that did that for you.........interesting but damn
Thomas Keith
689. insectoid
Birgit @680: Nice work!

Sigh...not in the top 50 yet. I'll probably make list #1 before I ever get to #2...I don't say enough!

By the way...that spoiler thread is getting hopelessly swampy with 1414 comments! 1500 before the next post, probably.

Wetlandernw @687: Oh all right...I'll give it a go. But I think I'll type it up first so that doesn't eat it. ;)
690. Freelancer

Egads. I don't know whether to applaud or glare. I wish you had sorted a list by average words/comment. I would have missed the top five on that list, instead of being seen as the WoT blowhard.

Still, a courageous effort, Birgit, and worthy of note. Take a bow.
691. Planeswalker
a 100 posts to crack 50! i am soooo unsociable... :)
Helen Peters
692. Helen
Birgit @680
Wow, did you do that by counting or do you have a program?
Stupid question really.

Just for fun, can you work out how many individual posters we have? I know alot have come out of the woodwork for the TGS spoiler thread, and some have changed their names before going grey, and obviously you'd have to take out AMW's alter egos, but I'd be interested to see how many people we have here, would everyone fit in the bunker?
Tess Laird
694. thewindrose
Very cool birgit!
You have proved that Freelancer is indeed our guru, and Wetlandernw as well of course.(It just riles up Free more - heh). While Free is more like Yoda, I am hearing sub as more like Yogurt. sub
Sam Mickel
695. Samadai
Birgit, very good job, thank you. Looks like I am going to have to work on my verbosity. 25th on posts but at only 55 words per post no where close to the top Wordiest( yeah I just made that up)
696. birgit
Just for fun, can you work out how many individual posters we have?

There are 2195 different usernames, 449 different alreadymad... (and one alreadyglad...). 1291 (including many alreadymad...s) appear only once.

Of course I used a program. At first it only counted red usernames, that's why I corrected the statistics.
Kurt Lorey
697. Shimrod
OK. Now, I'm waiting for Tor to sign birgit up to compile a WoT Re-read Book of Lists (e-version).

birgit, you rock!

To those at the top of both lists, your "Chatty Kathy-ness" leaves me in awe.

Marcus W
698. toryx
I can't believe I'm as high up on that list as I am. Man, I'm a wordy bugger.

Turns out that if I use my posts for NaNoWriMo I'd actually be a winner already. That's pretty funny.

I still have not bought TGS. I looked at it for a couple of minutes in Costco the other day, and thought about it and then decided not to. I gots no money for silly things like that right now. I think it's possible I'll get it for Christmas. That's not all that far away.
699. bored at work
Look at that
700. bored at work
I am #700
701. bored at work
And on a side note, PLEASE POST SOMETHING NEW!!!!
I am about to poke my eyeballs out with my pencil.
The horrah, the horrah
702. Zidel333
For the record, I do not see the whole Battle of Dumai's Wells and Rand's treatment asd misognynestic. BECAUSE OF THE SHIT THEY DID TO RAND IN THE FIRST PLACE. Let us review:

-Shielded him
-Kidnapped him
-Kidnapped Min (this might in fact be worse for poor Rand)
-Beat him daily, or more
-Beat Min
-Left him with little water or food
-Placed him in a small chest, in near complete darkness, and without proper ventilation for approximately 14 days(Rand is 6'6'' according to RJ...I can't imagine the pain of being doubled up in a box like that for someone as tall as that)
-Forced him to take the voice of LTT in his head seriously
-The deaths of hundreds of Maidens

And what were the repercussions of that?

-Rand becomes more crazy. Fullstop.
-Rand no longer trusts Aes Sedai or woman. Full stop.
-Rand comes close to breaking.
-Rand start his emotional destruction and breakdown. Full stop.
-Rand's voice of LTT becomes far more stronger.
-Rand loses what little childhood he has left, and he is reborn as the Dragon.
-Rand develops SEVERE claustrophobia, fear of darkness, and a fear of ambush/"Boxes". See books 10, and 12 for further evidence of how bad this is.
-Rand goes on his multi-book destruction and killing spill. See book 12 for it's severity.

Is ANY punishment worth what they did to Rand? The man who is supposed to save them! And what do they do! They turn him crazy. They torture him. They add to his vulnerabilities and weakness at a time when he should be strong and preparing for Tarmon Gai'don. They reap what they sow.

It's not misogyny what it is in fact correcting so horrible a wrong. If Rand had been a women, no one would care. If Rand had been a women, and the Channelers men, everyone would be screaming. It doesn't matter.

Also, I would like to add that RJ had mentioned several times that the 3rd Age is an Age of Powerful Women (White Tower, Andor, Wisdoms etc. etc.) It makes the emphsis that the 3rd Age is far, far worse then AoL when both sexes were needed for the greatest of miracles. When both sexes were equal. How did AoL end? When men and women stopped working together -- the Hundred Compansions and LTT went to Shayol Ghul. The sisters refused to Link and instead made the Koedon Cal.

The fact the three major protagonists are men in a veritable sea of secondary women, men who must break 3,000 YEAERS of gender failure and start anew. Is RJ sexist? I don't think so. He's a storyteller.
703. Rockin Robin
2 points as I have finally caught up.

What would I say if the genders were reversed in the post Dumai Wells kneel down? But assuming that none of the ACTIONS of either parties had changed from the first 6 books? That being Men Aes Sedai being manipulative, controlling, secretive, etc. and that Female Rand had everything happen to her that had happened thus far? I'd say "Yes! Those Douchebags finally got what they deserved!

Also on the "forcing" them to swear fealty...we've seen countless times that Aes Sedai are uncapable of telling lies. They literally choke up and cannot say anything. So if they didn't believe that they were honestly swearing fealty, then they wouldn't have been able to say anything. So they obviously agreed with it on some level.
704. H A Eriksson
Leigh, please continue your amazing, fabulous and extraordinary work! I'm longing for your take on A Crown of Swords.
John Massey
705. subwoofer
Figured I'd bark at this one too... miss the Leighster... my buddy is pretty good at scouting and collectively we can all read sign well... maybe sniff Leigh out.

Things are not the same without you. I may have to resort to singing O'Fortuna and nobody wants that...

706. AdamOndi
Well, it has officially been more than a month since the last re-read post. And it has been a few weeks since The Gathering Storm came out. I think it's time for more re-read posts. I need something to satiate my WoT hunger/need/addiction until next November.... *twitch*
707. Nalattam
More re-read please. We're ready when you are Leigh.
708. Dedicated
One the TGS spoiler post, Leigh said she would not post more re-reads until early December. Ouch.
709. Bored at Work
Uhh, thats next week, after the holiday...Impatient much?
710. Freelancer
Hey, folks. Leighdb will be back. When she's back. Comments (especially in red) whining for a new post aren't going to motivate her. She gets to have a life, with family and holidays and author signings and stuff, just like the rest of us.

FYI, she has been checking in periodically on the TGS open spoiler thread with updates. If you are avoiding the thread because you haven't read TGS, that's understandable. If you've read, then go read.

So, as Dedicated has said@708, probably next Wednesday, the 2nd. Unless she's still too busy, then. . . not. Tasty.

BTW, 'sup Woofer? (I kill me)
711. nalattam
My apologies free, I've been lurking on TGS spoiler thread for 2200 posts or so. (I'm a little behind). Henceforth all my whining will be in gray. Buuuttt mooommmm, I want my reread post! Just kidding. Take your time Leigh, we'll wait. Since we don't have any other options.
Alice Arneson
712. Wetlandernw
FWIW, Leigh says she'll be posting on Monday, 12/7. Hang in there over the weekend, and you'll get your reward.
713. Brain Damaged
Thank the light, I thought we were forsaken!
Jacy Clark
714. Amalisa

In KoD the WO can see channeling from the back of the battlefield with no problem. Throughout the Shaido camp, which was as large as a city.

They cannot try to harm the TAS with the power, unless they can convince themselves the TAS are BA.

In the battle for Malden in KoD, every channeller they (the WO's and the AS) saw was going to be a Shaido Wise One (Edarra said there were, maybe, fifteen or twenty that escaped the forkroot tea) and, therefore, an enemy determined to kill them. The SAS didn't have that luxury at Dumai Wells. Channellers could have been TAS or Shaido WO's - and there were a sight more than fifteen or twenty. I still contend that in the battle at Dumai Wells, from a distance somewhat akin to a football stadium, it was nigh on to impossible to differentiate between the two unless one was right in the big ol' hairy middle of the battle.

Yeah, this is coming up again because of the similar discussion related to ACoS, and I'd revisited this thread for clarification. I'd missed your response the first time around... Sorry! :)
715. RugbyPlayingAshaman
The whole "kneel or be knelt" section is particularly why Dumai Wells is my least favorite section of the series. I have nothing against how the Ashaman destroyed the Shaido - being polite to an enemy on the battlefield is a sure sign of insanity; in this series, only Rand is powerful enough to entertain this type of behavior and survive.

The problem, in my case, is that I like the Aes Sedai and what they represent if not what they have become much better than the Ashaman, and to see them forced to swear fealty on threat of violence goes against what I would like to see from Rand.

I think many readers are really quick to like bullying in this series for some reason, and they really don't like the whole idea of communicating or negotiating. Perhaps it's a weakness of the genre, but there are countless times when the fandom describes something as "manipulation" when what is really happening is diplomacy, with all the usual concessions and back and forth that requires.

I'm often of the opinion that the fans, overall, would prefer Rand to destroy everyone that didn't agree with him rather than need to gain agreement or approval, which is quite disturbing.
716. Ellie Angel
I've never liked Dumai's Wells as a battle or an ending. I admire it as a piece of writing -- it is well-constructed and the pacing is extremely good -- but the whole Asha'men, 'let's just blow the hell out of people' and treat the Aiel like their personal tinder box is disgusting. No wonder the Wise Ones and the Clan Chiefs are all worried about their fragment of a fragment. Jesus.

It's really well described -- too well-described, and thank God for Perrin's whole puking response -- but from this point forward, the books become about so much human ugliness that my pleasure in reading them was greatly lessened. I kept reading because I did/do want to know what happens to the principals, but it was at the end of book six that a lot of the detractor WOT arguments started to gain ground with me.

The Aes Sedai-Rand-Asha'men politics go to crap and I'm with Leigh on the whole 'kneel or be knelt' thing is really gross. Very little about the interaction between these groups is good from here on in, which makes my own re-read a lot less pleasing. Add in the Seanchan and the endless Shaido BS (plus the general downturn in the quality of Elayne and Birgitte's characters in the Andor crown arc) and it's one big barrel of depressing.

The biggest 'keep me reading' plot going forward is/was Siuan and Egwene. Egwene's big scene in the most recent book was pretty awesome, mostly because she rises above vindictive BS and just does what needs to be done. I see the point Jordan was making and some of the reasons for why he did what he did, but it did/does make being a fan of the whole series pretty challenging.
718. zeropiel
This is probably a dead horse at this time, but it seems you equate the kneeling to the swearing. They were two different incidents with totally different preambles, though they happened at basically the same time.

The kneeling was putting the rebel group on equal footing as the tower group, as promised in Caemlyn. They were given a choice to "kneel of be knelt".

The swearing was not asked for by Rand or Taim. The tower group did of course not swear. Thus the impromptu (had to look that one up to be sure) swearing can be regarded as an effect of being around ta'veren and kneeling, a position often used to swear fealty. Remember they did not discuss whether the oath was valid from a coercion point, but from a ta'veren point.
Derek Barolet
719. Derek.barolet
lol post 719 baby oh yeah!
Anyway, I couldnt disagree with you more leigh on this ending re kneel or be knelt. Its not cause im sexist previous posts prove that, its because in my eyes Rand should have taken the tower a long time ago, how much trouble would have been saved if all AS knelt to him. Yes, might take away freedom, but make his job which sucks anyway a bit easier. You convince or you conquer, they couldnt be convinced so they were conquered. Making all AS kneel would have been the lesser evil.