Oct 14 2009 2:15pm

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Lord of Chaos, Part 29

Well, fancy that: it’s a Wheel of Time Re-read! Unusual!

Today’s post covers Chapters 51-52 of Lord of Chaos, in which Galina did it, in the anteroom, with a box. AND LEIGH SMASH.

Previous entries are here. This and all prior posts contain spoilers for all currently published novels of the Wheel of Time series up to and including Knife of Dreams, so if you haven’t read, don’t read.

The Prologue of The Gathering Storm, “What the Storm Means,” is available for download here on or at multiple online vendors. Chapter 1 is still available as well, and Chapter 2 is available in audio format. Please refrain from posting spoilers for either the Prologue or Chapters 1-2 in the posts for the Re-read, in order to protect those who have not yet read them, or do not intend to before the release of the entire book. Spoiler discussion is going on at the respective posts announcing the releases, linked above; please keep them there. Thanks.

And now, the post!

Chapter 51: The Taking

What Happens
Rand suffers a teeth-grinding Sulin to dress him while Lews Therin cackles about killing Sammael and Demandred in his head, and asks if Min has arrived yet. Sulin doesn’t think he needs Min there, and Rand scowls and orders Sulin to run to the Wise Ones’ tents and get her, as he especially wants Min to view the Aes Sedai. As she curtsies and goes to leave, he asks Sulin how long; she knows what he means, and replies “Until my shame equals theirs”, and exits. Feeling pretty good, Rand goes to the anteroom, where Chiad (still uncertain about his status as Car’a’carn) soon enters to tell him the Aes Sedai are here. Rand tells her to send them in, and Coiren enters, followed by Galina, a raven-haired Aes Sedai he does not know, and then a dozen more women wrestling in two large chests. Some look at him, but most of them keep their heads down, Rand assumes in fear; he is disgusted that they really think they can buy him. Then Galina says it’s a pity his Green sister is not here today, and Rand reacts with shock, wondering how they could know about Alanna. Then he senses them embracing saidar, and infuriated, seizes saidin before an equally enraged Lews Therin can get to it, feeling contempt that they think they can do anything to him. Then, to his shock, he is cut off from the Source and bound with Air.

That shield made his eyes bulge; it was impossible. No three women could block him from the Source once he had taken hold of saidin, not unless they were as strong as Semirhage or Mesaana or... he reached for the Source, battered at that invisible stone wall, harder, harder. Lews Therin was snarling like a beast, battering, clawing frantically. One of them had to be able to reach saidin; one of them had to be able to break a buffer held by only three.

Then he sees that one of the serving women also has an ageless face, as Coiren tells him it is a pity it had to come to this, but it is obvious that he was only going to put them off, perhaps believing “those poor fools” rebelling against the Tower could help him. Rand sees now that only five of the “serving women” have young faces, and realizes they must all be Aes Sedai, fifteen all told. Lews Therin flees screaming, and Galina takes the Dragon Scepter from Rand’s hand, telling Coiren that the Red Ajah is in charge now, as agreed.

Handing the Dragon Scepter to the other black-haired woman in gray, she said, “Put this somewhere, Katerine. It might make an amusing souvenir for the Amyrlin.”

Red Ajah. Sweat oozed down Rand’s face. If only the Maidens outside would walk in now, Wise Ones, Sulin, anybody who could scream a warning, rouse the palace. Thirteen Aes Sedai, and Red Ajah in charge. Had he been able to open his mouth, he would have howled.

Bain hurriedly straightens from her crouch by the door, surprised that the Aes Sedai are leaving again so soon. Bain is still uncertain of what to think about the story the other Maidens had told her and Chiad about the Aes Sedai, but still feels guilt over the Aiel’s failure to serve them. One of the Aes Sedai stares her down, and informs her that “young Master al’Thor” seems to think he can come and go as he chooses, and they do not appreciate being walked out on; they will return if he does – maybe. Then she and the others leave, and Bain and Chiad hurry into Rand’s rooms.

Perrin demands of Nandera, what do you mean he’s gone? Nandera shrugs, though she smells irritated, and answers that Rand does that sometimes, leaving without telling the Maidens; she thought Perrin might know where he went. Perrin glances at Faile, who is steadfastly ignoring him by playing Stones with with Loial, and wishing he was wherever Rand is, sighs to Nandera that he has no idea.

Galina accompanies a serving woman with a tray to the cage in the basement where Rand is being held, and tells him she means him to arrive at the Tower in good health, so he will eat or else he will be fed. Rand doesn’t bother lunging for the opening again, but instead ignores her, turning his attention back to the shield blocking him from the Source, maintained by six Aes Sedai in chairs around the cage.

He reached, and felt at the invisible wall cutting him off from the Source, slid along it as though trying to find an edge. What he found was a place where the wall seemed to become six points; they stopped him as effectively, but they were six, not one, and definitely points.

He wonders how he could have forgotten Moiraine’s advice: trust no Aes Sedai, “not an inch, not a hair”, and hopes bleakly that a Wise One will somehow walk by the place he’s being held and wonder why so much saidar was being channeled inside. He thinks that the six points are soft somehow, and wishes Lews Therin would speak, but the voice is silent.

Sorilea hurries by the stone house where the Aes Sedai are staying, where as usual they are channeling constantly; she dismisses that in favor of increasing worry over Rand’s disappearance. Though he had a tendency to do that, as many men did, this time Min had disappeared as well, somewhere between the palace and the tents, and Sorilea does not like coincidences.


Oh, man. I remember reading Rand’s capture the first time, and being so infuriated I almost yelled out loud at the book. And only nerds yell at books.


Anyway. LEIGH SMASH, frothing rage, et cetera. This is where the LOC train officially derails after threatening to do it for a good hundred pages, and I was Not A Happy Camper when it happened. It was sort of like how I felt about Alanna bonding Rand, except with the dial set at eleven.

I guess it has to be said, though, to be fair or something, that as nefarious kidnapping schemes go, this one is rather remarkably well thought out. Diabolical plotting, you’re... doing it pretty well, actually. Especially the way they used Rand’s own rep for flitting off at no notice to throw off suspicion. I always did say Alviarin is a first-class villain, better than most of the Forsaken if you ask me.

(Yeah, supposedly this whole thing is Mesaana’s handiwork, but c’mon, you know Alviarin did all the actual legwork. Mesaana was just the executive villain.)

The constantly channeling thing is also an especially clever touch, and one that I never guessed the significance of until Sorilea’s brief POV here. And then I was like, damn, that’s clever. CRAP.

And... that’s it, really. Onward!

Chapter 52: Weaves of the Power

What Happens
Vanin enters the inn, where Mat is dicing with a number of locals and outlanders alike (and not doing very well, surprisingly), and tells him that “they” are out again, and Thom still doesn’t know how. Just after that, a blue-eyed outlander throws a winning toss, and Mat mutters that next the Daughter of the Nine Moons is going to show up to claim him. The blue-eyed man chokes on his drink, and Mat asks if he knows the name, but the man replies in a slurring accent that his drink went down the wrong pipe. He asks for the name again, but Mat just gathers up his coins and takes leave of the game politely, going over to where Mistress Anan is sitting with a pretty young woman in a dress with a red belt. Mistress Anan makes a comment about “Lord Cauthon’s” luck, and Mat accepts the title for once, since in Ebou Dar lords were only mostly challenged by other lords, and as far as Mat’s concerned it’s a question of math over principle; even so, he thinks that he’s already had to crack three heads in the last ten days. Olver pops up beside him, followed by Frielle (Setalle’s daughter), and demands to go horse-racing; Mat scowls at Nalesean, who had entered Olver in the horse races without telling Mat first. Frielle apologizes for letting Olver get away from her, and Mat tells her she can put Olver in a barrel if she has to. Olver shoots Mat a dirty look, then gives Frielle an “insolent grin he had picked up somewhere”, and tells her he will be quiet if he can look at her beautiful eyes, and all of the women laugh fondly.

Shaking his head, Mat started up the stairs. He had to speak to the boy. He could not just grin like that at every woman he saw. And telling a woman she had beautiful eyes! At his age! Mat did not know where Olver got it.

Upstairs, Nalesean tells Mat he will assemble the men; Mat endures Nerim’s mournful insistence that he change his coat and glum entreaties to “try not to get blood on it today”, and heads back out, leaving his spear behind. Outside, he looks up at the Palace, trying to figure out how the women had managed to get out every day without his men seeing them even though they had every exit covered, and decides they’re doing it purely to spite him. He announces they’ll check the Rahad today, which makes the Redarms uneasy; Vanin declares that “Lady Elayne” would never go anywhere like that, and Mat thinks he is beginning to despair of rescuing Vanin from her influence. He tells them he intends to find the women “if they’re hiding under a bed in the Pit of Doom”, and sets out.

Elayne stands in the Rahad with Birgitte, staring at a six-story building that might be the one they found in Tel’aran’rhiod (though Nynaeve insists it was five stories). Birgitte thinks they are attracting attention, but Elayne thinks that unlikely, with how well they are disguised, between the inverted Illusion weaves and the rough clothes Tylin had provided for them, but suggests they go in; they had given up trying to ask questions after almost getting into tavern brawls twice (Nynaeve had had to hit another woman with a stool). Elayne and Birgitte climb up the stairs, but quickly discover it is the wrong building, and barely get out without precipitating a fight. Elayne thinks she had been “an optimistic fool” to think they would find the bowl in ten days, and thinks that at least Adeleas and Vandene (whom they had seen several times in the Rahad as well) were having no better luck than they. They exit the building only to find a knife fight going on outside, which they are forced to watch, as leaving would attract undue attention. The smaller man wins, leaving the other bleeding on the street; Elayne instinctively moves to try to help him, but before she can do anything a woman in a red-belted dress appears. She stuffs some herbs in the wounded man’s mouth, and then Elayne sees her embrace saidar and weave Healing flows on him. She is very deft, but it is still too late, and the woman tells the victor of the duel he will have to go tell the loser’s wife he killed her husband; the winner acquiesces meekly, and everyone seems to be treating the woman with great respect. Elayne notices as the woman heads off that she is Domani, and wonders what on earth a Domani wilder is doing in the Rahad, but Birgitte firmly squashes any notion of following after her. Then she and Birgitte notice Nalesean and Mat entering the street, and Elayne thinks that Nalesean looks “every inch the Tairen lord”, grimacing and spoiling for a fight, while Mat looks completely at ease, and like he’d spent the night “crawling through taverns”, which Elayne thinks he probably had.

“It never struck me before,” Birgitte murmured, “but I think Mat is the more dangerous of those two. A N’Shar in Mameris. I wonder what they’re doing this side of the Eldar.”

Elayne stared at her. A what where? “They have probably drunk all the wine on the other side. Really, Birgitte, I do wish you’d keep your mind on what we are about.” This time she was not going to ask.

Elayne puts the men out of her mind, hoping they find the bowl today, since tomorrow she is supposed to be paired with Aviendha. She was beginning to like the Aiel woman, but Aviendha seemed to go out of her way to challenge Ebou Dari women into dueling, and actually seemed disappointed that men would not challenge her as well. She and Birgitte move on to the next building.

Egwene sits in Logain’s tent, along with the six sisters maintaining Logain’ shield. Egwene had tried suggesting that the shield be tied off, but the suggestion was met with shock; the tradition for shielding a man was six sisters maintaining it with all their strength, and that was that. Logain is incredulous that Egwene wants to know what he thinks of al’Thor’s amnesty, and Egwene replies that surely he must have an opinion, considering if he were there he would likely have a place of honor, and here he may be gentled at any moment. Logain asks quietly if they would really gentle him again after he’s done all they asked, and offered to swear any oath they required, and Egwene answers ambiguously that whatever happens, he can still serve. Logain starts to rise, snarling, and Egwene snares him with Air.

The flows held him there kneeling, but he seemed to ignore them. “You want to know what I think of al’Thor’s amnesty? I wish I were with him now! Burn you all! I have done everything you asked! The Light burn you all!”

“Be calm, Master Logain.” Egwene was surprised her voice came out so steady. Her heart was racing, though certainly not for fear of him. “I swear this to you. I will never harm you, nor allow you to be harmed by any who follow me if I can help it, unless you turn against us.”

But, she adds, the Hall will do as it decides. Logain has become calm, and she releases him and tells him she will return in a day or two to speak to him further on the matter, and leaves. The Warders outside bow to her, and she thinks that at least the Gaidin do not care how she was raised; to them, the Amyrlin is the Amyrlin. She walks through the camp, thinking of Talmanes’ forces camped ten miles away, and how the Band’s following them had served not only as a goad to keep the rebels moving, but as an incentive for local nobles to throw in their lot with Bryne’s army, though Egwene is not entirely comfortable with that last, since it is only after they swear that the nobles realize the rebels’ true target is Tar Valon, not an army of Dragonsworn.

Trapped into alliance they might have been, and into fealty of a sort, but they would be among the most fervent of her supporters. Their only way out of that trap with their necks intact was to see Egwene wearing the stole in Tar Valon.

Siuan and Leane were quite set up over it. Egwene was not certain how she felt. If there had been some way to remove Elaida without a drop of blood being shed, she would have leaped at it. She did not think there was, though.

That night Egwene meets Elayne and Nynaeve in Tel’aran’rhiod, and notes that Elayne is dressed in Ebou Dari fashion, with a small knife pendant necklace, the hilt “a mass of pearls and firedrops”. She asks after their progress, and concludes from their bright optimistic replies that they must be “beating their heads against a wall”. She considers aloud having them return to the rebels, but Elayne and Nynaeve strongly protest, and Elayne rather disingenuously tries to imply they are safe in Tarasin Palace all the time.

Her dress was different, the cut unaltered, but the material was coarse and worn. Nynaeve wore a near copy of it, except that her knife had no more than nine or ten glass beads on the hilt. Hardly clothes for any palace. Worse, she was trying to look innocent. Nynaeve had no practice at that.

Suddenly Elayne and Nynaeve become aware of what they are wearing, and blush furiously and change; Egwene is puzzled that it seems to be the knives that had truly shocked them. Egwene decides to let the whole thing go, and asks if they are making use of Mat; Elayne says they can’t let him get in their way, but assures Egwene if they do “anything dangerous” they will be sure to use Mat and his men as protection, and Nynaeve assures Egwene that she hasn’t said a cross word to him since they arrived in the city. Elayne asks if the dreamwalkers were able to help with their problem. Egwene thinks the meeting with Bair and Melaine had been odd, since she hadn’t told them she was Amyrlin for fear they wouldn’t believe her, although one good thing was Melaine, who was so pleased about having twin daughters she forgave Egwene her toh immediately, and promised to name one of them after Egwene. Egwene tells Elayne that according to Bair, they had never heard of anyone finding something with need after they had already found it; Elayne sighs, and says they’ll have to do it the old-fashioned way, then. She asks if they said anything about Rand, and Egwene says according to them Rand is “lolling about” in Cairhien; she does not tell them about the many uncomplimentary things Bair and Melaine had to say about Aes Sedai, but thinks Merana may have blundered badly. She tells them about Perrin’s marriage to Faile, which pleases Nynaeve, but Elayne sounds rather doubtful in wishing them happiness.

Elayne bit her underlip. “Egwene, would you pass a... a message to the Wise Ones for Min? Tell her...” She hesitated, chewing her lip in thought. “Tell her I hope she can come to like Aviendha as much as she likes me. I know that sounds odd,” she laughed. “It’s a private matter between us.” Nynaeve looked at Elayne as oddly as Egwene knew she herself was.

“I will, of course. I don’t mean to talk with them again for some time, though.” There was not much point when they were as uncommunicative concerning Rand as they were. And as hostile toward Aes Sedai.

Elayne is airily dismissive, saying it’s not that important, and soon leaves, pleading exhaustion, but Nynaeve stays behind long enough to ask softly if Egwene has heard anything about Lan. Egwene says regretfully she hasn’t, but she’s sure Lan is still alive, and still loves Nynaeve.

“Of course he is alive,” Nynaeve said firmly. “I won’t allow anything else. I mean to make him mine. He is mine, and I won’t let him be dead.”

Egwene wakes in her tent to find Siuan there, who tells her it’s done; the sisters on duty at midnight will have “mint” tea brought to them. Egwene wonders aloud if she is doing the right thing, and Siuan says don’t ask her, she would never help “that man” escape if it were up to her. Egwene answers that she will not countenance murder, which is what Delana has been hinting at, and otherwise the Hall will decide to gentle Logain sooner or later, and she can’t allow that either.

“If Merana really has put Rand’s back up somehow, that will be tossing fat-wood in the fire. I just wish I could be sure he will go to Rand and join him instead of running off the Light knows where, doing the Light knows what. At least that way there might be some way to control what he does.” She heard Siuan shift in the darkness.

“I always thought the stole weighed about as much as three good men,” Siuan said quietly. “The Amyrlin has few easy decisions to make, and fewer where she can be sure. Do what you must, and pay the price if you’re wrong. Sometimes if you are right, too.”

Egwene remarks she’s heard that before, and tells Siuan to make sure he doesn’t hurt anyone leaving.

Nisao tells Myrelle that “this” is terrible, and enough to condemn them both to exile if it’s ever discovered; Myrelle grimaces and ignores her, knowing Nisao will not pass up this chance to further her studies of sicknesses of the mind. She can feel him coming closer, and feels his wounds.

She had felt his journey in distance and blood; his blood. Across Cairhien and Andor, Murandy and now Altara, through lands infested with rebels and rogues, bandits and Dragonsworn, focused on her like an arrow speeding to the target, carving his way through any armed man who stood in his path. Even he could not do that unharmed. She toted up his injuries in her mind, and wondered that he was still alive.

A rider appears and stops a ways off, and he says to Myrelle that she shouldn’t have sent Nuhel and Croi out to find him, as he almost killed them before he recognized them. Myrelle calls to him to come to her, and when he doesn’t move, weaves Spirit and touches “the part of him that contained her bond”, and repeats herself, and he comes forward.

Then he was standing in front of her, standing over her, and as she stared up into Lan Mandragoran’s cold blue eyes, she saw death. The Light help her. How was she ever to keep him alive long enough?

This is the chapter I mentally referred to as “the infuriating non-kidnapping intervening crap I barely skimmed because I was so anxious to get back to Rand” chapter. Catchy, ain’t it?

But, yeah. It’s a shame for my first-time-WOT-reading self, because there’s actually some fairly interesting stuff here. I was just in no mood for anything but getting to the part where Rand is rescued/escapes/whatever. (And I remember thinking, oh, if Jordan ends this giant-ass book with Rand still in captivity I will LOSE MY SHIT. Fortunately for all in my vicinity at the time, that was not the case, and ergo no fecal misplacement was necessary. And we are all very, very glad, aren’t we.)

Anyway. I think we might all have to be jealous of Olver, for getting such first-class training in Lovable Scoundrel School so early. He’s like a wee little Han Solo! And Mat’s cluelessness over it may be a tad overplayed to me now, but at the time I found it deliciously amusing.

I never noticed before now that Setalle is totally having a chat with one of the Kin in this chapter. Although, at least I wasn’t oblivious enough to miss Mat rather neatly sealing his fate by blabbing about the Daughter of the Nine Moons to a Seanchan spy. Nicely done, that, by Jordan I mean.

Also, this is totally minor, but even though it’s something of a cliché I’ve always loved the “unflappable manservant” trope, here embodied by Nerim. Their personalities vary in the specifics from incarnation to incarnation, but there’s always that same imperturbable mien, calmly cleaning bloodstains from clothing and making sure Batman the hero remembers to eat and wear fresh underwear and all, and it always makes for a great Odd Couple dynamic. Egwene has one too, in Chesa, and Perrin sort of acquires one later on in Balwer (though not with the clean underwear part, admittedly). In fact I now suddenly have a theory that part of Rand’s problem is that he never got an Alfred. All heroes should have an Alfred, it’s a rule!

Elayne: Bowl, searching, blah. The only interesting part of her POV is how she is so firmly entrenched in her view of Mat as a wastrel that she doesn’t even register Birgitte’s (awesome) observation that Mat is dangerous. Although her quip about the wine was actually pretty funny, to me anyway.

Oh, but the marriage knives thing for her and Nynaeve in the Dreamworld was hilarious. “Only” nine or ten kids, Nynaeve, really? And Elayne! Quite reproductively ambitious, our Supergirls are! Of course, given how long they’ll both be of childbearing age it’s not like it isn’t doable, so there’s that, I guess.

(In case this is making zero sense to you: marriage knives in Ebou Dar indicate the number of children a woman has with jewels set into the hilt, remember?)

Egwene: Gets total Awesome points here for letting Logain go. She even did it for the right reasons. And though ultimately this frees up Halima to work her migraining mojo on Egwene, that would have happened eventually anyway; the difference is Logain didn’t have to get killed first. So, yay for that. (Again, still not sure why I like Logain so much, but there you are; I was very happy that he got to go free.)

And incidentally we also get some proof here (in hindsight) that not all Aes Sedai traditions are stupid – at least not the ones concerning how to hold channeling men captive. There’s some irony there, if you think about it.

Also, hi, Lan! Thanks for precipitating six hundred flamewars about whether “bond-compelling” is the same thing as Compulsion, that was fun!

Don’t look at me, I’m merely a humble butler. I buttle, sir. I keep everything – tidy. And if you wear your clean clothes and eat your greens, I’ll be happy to provide you with a freshly pressed post this Friday, sir. Pleasure to serve, sir. Wipe your chin, sir. Yes, that’s nice, very good, sir. Good night, sir.

Ilya Surdin
1. Surdin
Thank you. I'm sick and have been waiting for this all day. (7pm now. :) )
Jacy Clark
2. Amalisa
Yeah... that "back to work" comment on #28? Soooo not happening!

Thanks, Leigh!
3. Alfvaen
My goodness, not one but two Clue references.

I imagine that non-Rand chapter would be a bit would expect at least one of the other plot threads to have built up to a climax of some sort, the way they did so nicely in, say, TSR, but RJ had some problems with that in later books, didn't he?
Kev Hamm
4. cavynmaicl
Um, why is the listing ended at #26? I missed 27 & 28, apparently, due to that horrible sickness that's making the rounds -i.e. Work. Can someone update the list so I can get to those? Thanks to whomever does.
5. Alfvaen
cavynmaicl@5: That's why I started following @tordotcom on twitter. They're usually a little prompter.
6. PhantomIce
If I haven't mentioned it before, thanks for the amazing commentary Leigh, I have as much fun reading your commentary as I do rereading these chapters.

I completely agree with you on the "interlude" chapter, at least for the first time round when I was like "no no what you can't do this to me what's happening to Rand forget all the others"

Still some really good stuff in there, it really sets up the next book.

And it really was a good kidnapping plot, well planned and very well executed. too bad it makes our main hero into a raving lunatic for the next 6-7(?) books.
Joseph Blaidd
7. SteelBlaidd
Leigh you are not the first person to note Rand's distinct lack of Alfred as a contributer to his problems, Ive thought this since about aCoS. If anything he needs one more than any one else in this series. And it's not just a batman(traditional military term for an officer's manservent)he needs but an "Alfred", some one he can think out loud in front of, and get advice from, without worrying about what that person will do behind his back "for his own good." Suian does this for Egwene, Thom does it for Mat, Perrin has Balwer, and Elayne has Avhienda, Birgite and then Dylin. The last person Rand could have this type of frank conversation with, was Asmodean. Morraine and then Cadsuane are still AS and he has been too worried about worrying Min to compleatly open up to her, though now that LTT is "out in the open" this may change.
Maiane Bakroeva
8. Isilel
No three women could block him from the Source once he had taken hold of saidin

Oh, Rand, how could you be idiotic enough to believe this? What if they had some sa'angreal - you have no idea how many and of what strength the WT has.
And what if one of them _had_ been a Forsaken - after all Lanfear had zero problem with appearing like somebody else?
And anyway - meeting with them alone?!
After all the drama and pomp around the SAS? After Egwene warned you that Galina is likely a Red?! Aargh!
And BTW, despite the letter and link that he perceives between Alviarin and Galina, Rand never makes the obvious conclusion...

I have to agree that it is one of the few very cleverly organized dastardly acts in the series.

wonders what on earth a Domani wilder is doing in the Rahad, but Birgitte firmly squashes any notion of following after her.

Yea, the characters have to trip themselves and each other at every turn, because we couldn't have had this storyline progress in a timely fashion :(.

according to Bair, they had never heard of anyone finding something with need after they had already found it

Aaand another illogical slow-down device. Why on earth would they have to use the "need" again, when they have already seen the attic?! They have to just imagine the attic as clearly as they can! This worked with every other location until now, but since this has to continue at snail pace through ACoS, they sudeenly can't! Consistency? What consistency?

Yes, major kudos for Egwene's decision re: Logain. She does have good instincts and is a good leadership material.
Also, while I think that Siuan would have been better as Amyrlin in many (most?) respects, this is certainly something she wouldn't have done, largely due to her history of being stuck in the Tower.
In fact, it is because of things like this that I can somewhat believe in the necessecity of Egwene becoming an Amyrlin.
Roger Powell
9. forkroot
I dunno ... each of the relationships you list have their own dynamic. I could just as easily list Bashere and Lan (when he makes it back to Rand) as confidantes. Certainly as much as Balwer is to Perrin.
10. PhantomIce
Not sure Min can work as an "Alfred" for Rand because I'm not convinced she can offer as much experience in Randland as such a person should.

Looking at other examples from SteelBlaidd, all the "alfreds" (except Avi) have considerably more life experience thanthe ones they are advising.

Think Rand may accept Morraine in that role if we (sorry he) ever gets her back.
John Mann
11. jcmnyu
Enter "batshit crazy" Rand. He'll be around for the foreseeable future. The plan was excellent with contingencies, alternatives, and a power transfer. Our favorite dark red, Galina, gets her one moment in the sun before her long, long road leads to her being recast as Therava's personal slave. Have fun, Lina!

I have fun thinking of what would have happened if the alarm had been sounded. Could the Aes Sedai have brought out Rand if the palace was roused? Now that would have been quite the battle. 15 Aes Sedai, at least 6 of which need to keep shielding Rand, trying to get out of the city fighting some 100,000 Aiel, many of whom would have refused? Would the Wise Ones have fought? It's only after that we have the first Wise One/Aes Sedai confrontation at Dumai's Wells. Perrin is in the palace, so would he have taken charge? You have to assume the Ashaman wouldn't have shown up. Things may have turned out very differently.

Why didn't Egwene call out Elayne for not taking Mat along? 1 step forward, 1 step back.

And Elayne, they are there looking for you. Remember, you snuck out of the palace in disguise because he wants to escort you around and protect you. When he arrives half way across the city, it's because he's trying to find you, you incompetent boob.

"The Taking" is my favorite chapter title in the entire series. Well done, Harriet.
Genevieve Williams
12. welltemperedwriter
Isilel@8: yes, yes, YES about not being able to use need again/just imagine the room and go outside to see what the neighborhood looks like. That drove me nuts.

Though I recently listened to this part again (I have a looooong commute) and the only part of this entire episode that really drives me crazy is Setalle and the Kin's assumptions about the SGs. Perfect example of previously perceptive characters being willfully blind in service of the plot. It's the only part of the audiobook that I fast-forwarded through.
13. PirateLexi
You quoted Clue. I love you. :D
Tranylle Simmons
15. tranylle
I just watched Clue on Sunday! Wow...I love that movie.
16. MasterAlThor
Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwwww Yeeeeaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!

It's about to go down people. This is where it gets really good. This is where I started reading the book at warp speed. I lost track of time, missed appointments and even blew off hanging with friends and my gf.

Leigh, only nerds yell at books? Wait till Nyn loses her block. HULK SMASH!!!!

By the way, I am buying stock in pain relievers for the infinite amount of *headdesking* that will soon be coming our way. Get in while you can people.

Until you apologize to Mat, you suck.

Poor girl, I will never like you.

Your cool for now, but you have your moments don't you?

Realize that you are the major influence on Olver. Did you forget that you are Taveren. (ok so I spelled it wrong. I am too lazy to get a book)

HULK SMASH!!!! Coming soon to a theater near you

Ooooooo...somebodies gettin in trouble

Enough, I must go now.
James Jones
17. jamesedjones
This was THE chapter for me. Everything in the series had been a nice build up to a generally easy run for the main character. Even with the spear wound and the various forsaken battles, this was the first major flub by Rand where taveren chance doesn't turn everything to his advantage before the chapter is over. I didn't put the book down again after this chapter.

Love the little taveren twist in the Rahad. Elayne finds a wilder with massive respect from the locals, in a neighborhood where they're looking for items of the One Power, and she doesn't cotton on to the fact that Mat is just around the corner? Good googley moogley!

What an Assmonkey. :P
S Diller
18. CuenDiller
wow, "Flames, flames on the side of my face!" This is MY Clue reference!! Leigh, you are awsome.

And I love Elayne's "Oh yeah, Nyneave clobbered someone with a bar stool" thought. Like it's totally normal. HA!
19. Dunkelseele
Logain is likable because he is a good guy. He is very underused, so it can be hard to remember who he is. He is a minor lord, and he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn because, how was he to know that he wasn't? It was his duty as a male channeler to proclaim himself and try to save the world. Unlike Taim, he wasn't in it for the glory and fame. This is shown by his willingness to actually work for Rand, loyally, rather than pretend to and attempt to ursurp Rand's authority. I fail to see many negative aspects to his character. Feel free to point out any.
20. peachy
The whole 'why am I the ONLY good influence in the boy's life?' thing does get overplayed eventually, but it's funny for a while - Mat's usually pretty self-aware, but not in this case. It might be, in part, because he just doesn't envision himself as a role-model.

Ah, Alviarin... so evil, so competent, so... wonderful. I hope she gets more screen-time the rest of the way.
21. TexanSedai
The only thing needed to make this chapter complete is Justin Timberlake running around singing "I put my Rand in a box" HAHAHAHA!!!
Barry T
22. blindillusion
Character Round-Up Blind style a la MasterAlThor@16 you say? Sure, I say.

Rand: See what over confidence gets you? I'm not much of a fan of AS in general but boy, they do deserve some...egads...respect. I hate that you lose all trust after this, and it's not without reason I suppose...but, sigh. Can't see the trees for the forest.

Perrin: You boob. Nuff said.

Faile: You boob. Nuff said.

Mat: I want to know a "N’Shar in Mameris" is becuause odds are it's Seven Kinds Of Badass.

Elayne and Nyn: Stupid is as stupid does. Thanks for dragging an open-shut case over the next few books.

Egwene: Major, MAJOR kudos for freeing Logain. Much like Leigh I don't know why I like Logain so much, but eh, it's there so we'll go with it.

Lan: Damn dude. Eyes of Death?

Galina: Enjoy the victory're at the stop of a very steep hill, covered in sharp rocks and thorn bushes, and someone's about to push. What's that, your forgot your tire? Tough cookie.

Katerine: I really, really hope...blah, words can't describe.

Nerim: I just noticed that Rand is lacking an uber butler. Poor guy. Sigh. Where's Tim Curry when you really, really need him.

Logain: Wonder what would have happened if you'd found Rand before Taim. No real plot thoughts..just curious.

Not much of a post, but I'll wait to see if anyone puts something up I'd like to comment to. And besides, it's the next chapter we've all been waiting for.

Shit, meet the Fan.
23. Blacktower
"Flames, flames on the side of my face" Ha! Nice flashback!
24. TexanSedai
What does Myrelle and Nisoa have to keep Lan alive long enough for?
26. Lsana
I will say that one thing I don't think Jordan did particularly well was his switches between PoV characters. I noticed this as far back as Great Hunt. Rand's been kidnapped, he's being held in the basement, no one knows what has happened...let's go read about Elayne and Nynaeve running around in the slums of Ebou Dar! Grrr...

@12 welltemperedwriter,

What do you mean by "Setalle and the Kin's assumptions about the SGs"? Are you referring to the fact that they assume the SG are lying about being Aes Sedai? If so, I think Setalle is being entirely reasonable there. Think about it. The girls are decades younger than any other AS have ever been, they don't have the ageless look, and they never went through the "official test." Under the circumstances, I can't imagine why someone like Setalle wouldn't be highly skeptical of their claims to be Aes Sedai.
27. TexanSedai
So Moiraine had no brilliant insight from the 'Fins about sme gallant role he has to play in TG? They are going to all that effort just to save him for Nyn's sake? Wasn't sure, just curious
John Fitzingo
28. Xandar01
This I think is one of the first times that I actually skipped ahead chapters on the first read through to see what happened. On rereads I am patient though.
Barry T
29. blindillusion
Well, before Moiraine went down the rabbit hole Nyn was the strongest female character in regards to the OP. Keeping her alive until TG would serve a purpose and who would be better able to do that than Lan? Also, Moiraine probably knows that the only thing that's going to keep Lan from going into the Blight alone would be his love for Nye. Seems like a good idea to me. She would of just given Lan's bond to Nye but Nye wasn't yet an AS.

Also, it's evident that Moiraine was doing some soul searching throughout those last couple of books. Perhaps she thought love was worth it.
Maiane Bakroeva
30. Isilel
Dunkelseele @19:

he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn because, how was he to know that he wasn't?

Because he wasn't born on the slopes of the Dragonmount? Really now, the Prophecies are quite clear on this point and as an educated man Logain had to know that.

And unless we learn at some point that he had reasons to believe that he _was_ born there (maybe some Ishy-manipulation of his dreams?), he was, like most of False Dragons a power-hungry criminal with thousands of lives on his conscience.

However, he did get better after the whole capture/gentling episode. He became a better man, IMHO. That's what makes him somewhat cool, though I didn't like how made Siuan, Leane and Min wait on him when they travelled together.

Jamesedjones @17:

Actually, IMHO them seeing a Wise Woman in action when traipsing through Rahad for days on end was very likely in any case. IIRC, they fight a lot there.

It is more anti-ta'verenness also known as author-fu that prevents a speedy resolution to this quest via Brigitte's uncharacteristic obstructiveness;).

Alviarin... she was very cool until strapping (really?), and being marked by Shaidar Haran to be fair, suddenly put her out of her countenance. As one of the few clever and competent villains I wish she'd get an opportunity to achieve more. OP strength shouldn't be everything, after all.

Wouldn't it be great if _she_ managed to kill Mesaana? And got picked up by a more competent boss?
Hilde Sørensen
31. edlihs
Did anyone notice that Mats' luck dropped when Rand was kidnapped?

Leigh: I think I read somewhere that both Elaida and Masema takes credit. Don't know if Alverin does...

According to chapter 22 TGH Moiraine has already made arrangement with Myrelle. She "test" him with the knowledge. (Just before she has conversation with Vandene and gets attacked by the warded dragkhar)
32. Freelancer
Well, Rand was warned. But seriously, what about all the non-black members of the kidnapping party? How did they justify this as possibly ending any way but horribly?

Regarding Lan, Myrelle made a deal with Moiraine, to save him from the expected broken-bond insanity, and make him well enough to pass to Nynaeve. That's it.

I'm with Lsana, there's no foundation for Setalle to respond any other way to Elayne and Nynaeve, given her experience. And since our two SGs are delivered to the Knitting Circle under that supposition, it's no wonder they accept the words of Setalle, the only Aes Sedai (former or not) they deal with.

Tim Curry? Dr. Frank-N-Butler? That doesn't make any sense. You want Riff-Raff. Or maybe a satanic mechanic. So what's for dinner tonight?
Vincent Lane
33. Aegnor

Go to the main page, look for Bloggers section on the left, find Leigh's name, click on it, and you will get a list of all her posts, starting with the most recent. It is automatically kept up to date, rather than relying on someone to update it like the index.
Joseph Blaidd
34. SteelBlaidd

I agree that Rand certanly needs councelers wih experiance, my contention is that what he really needs is some one he can "take off the armor" in front of. Rand has no tears left in part because there is no one and no where he feels safe not being hard.

I've been watching this exact kind of emotional interaction happen in Cris Dee's wonderful Batman/Catwoman fanfic Alfred, despite his disaproval of the things Bruce does to himself as Batman, suports him and does not undermine his decisions. Selina takes some of the same role as Cadsuane, poking at him to get him to come out of his selfimpossed masochistic shell. this chapter is a really good example.

Forkroot@9 (I see what you did there :) :P )
Lan's first loyalty is to Nynaeve, Bashere is with him for pragmatic reasons, with Min he is to afraid of her stoping loving him to be compleatley open (and yes that is compleatly back assward but rational our boy is not right now, otherwise he wouldn't be in this state), and I would bet hes terrified that if he unclenches enough to have the kind of cathartic emotional experiance he realy needs right now he wont be able to get it back together in time to die on Shayol Ghul if he can make himself go through with it at all.
35. TexanSedai
blindillusion and edlihs -

Great points! Thanks for the clarification!
36. peachy
@28 - I'm the other way 'round; I read everything the first time so that I know what happens, but only the parts I like on the repeats. I just breezed through WH in a couple of hours using this method; all of Mat, the Cleansing, and the snippets of Forsaken and Tower AS... I bet TPOD would be a very fast read my way. ;)
Maiane Bakroeva
37. Isilel
Moiraine arranged for bond-passing when she was last in the Tower, before she left for TR. She didn't want Lan to die if she did. Later, she must have written to Myrelle with the request to pass the bond to Nynaeve when she was raised.

So no, no glimpses of future role for Lan, she just cared a lot about him having a future. They were family, closest friends and comrades in arms rolled into one, after all.
James Jones
38. jamesedjones
30 Isilel

Absolutely. There are plenty of Wise Ones around, and plenty of fights to fix. No argument from me there.

But these ladies do - not - channel that often. They're very careful about when and even how much. That's not to say they are not fooling themselves, as we later find out. But Elayne was willing to risk exposure to try to help the victim/loser. I'm not convinced that "fatal" duels crop up all over the place, nor that many wise ones would happen to be in the immediate vicinity. Weren't some of Mat's rascals disappointed that no one would even look at them funny, much less offend them, with a few wise ones nearby?

Of course, I was just looking for an excuse to use Siuanfan's nifty naming convention. :)
39. IamtheRandinthebox
Just reading Leigh's synopsis of that chapter made me want to smash things. I love how Jordan tries to make us a little sympathetic to Galina when she is tortured. At least for me I never felt an ounce of sympathy for that nasty, evil bitch. Nothing you could do to her would be too much (isn't this the whole righteous anger thing?)

I'm jonesing for Dumai's Well. The best battle scene of the whole freaking series. It's the one time where we get to see the (almost) full might of Rand's army. All we needed was Mat leading the army and The Horn of Valere.
Rob Munnelly
40. RobMRobM
@32 - re final para: "Oh no, Meatloaf again."
Barry T
41. blindillusion

Got a bit caught up on the whole Clue theme.

Rand simply needs a confidant, not a counselor, a g/f, BFFs, or any of the quasi-postive things (Nobles, Suck-ups, AS Oath-sworn, etc.) the guy does have.

Oh, I don't about his FATHER!!
Rob Munnelly
42. RobMRobM
@37 - Lan_is_Malkier, a thorn in the side of the Dark One. In addition to personal reasons, she wanted to preserve Lan's ability to marshal the Malkieri for TG.
Joseph Blaidd
43. SteelBlaidd
My guess on why they don't just go back to the room is that they can't remember it well enough to get there instead of of one of the other dusty storerooms all over the Rahad.

And Birgitte stops her from following the Wise Woman because why would a DOMINI wilder know where a dusty storeroom of Ter'angreal are, and they are likly to get in serious trouble accosting a Wise Woman.
Rob Munnelly
44. RobMRobM
@43. I've said it before but the Wise Ones said you can't use need twice to find something. So couldn't go back (and they tried, too).
James Jones
45. jamesedjones
43 SteelBlaidd
And Birgitte stops her from following the Wise Woman because why would a DOMINI wilder know where a dusty storeroom of Ter'angreal are, and they are likly to get in serious trouble accosting a Wise Woman.

I dunno. Why would Mat spot where the SGs were staying in Tear during a flash of lightning as soon as he stepped off the boat? For the only possible reason: because RJ hates Leigh's desk. I mean, seriously, RJ must have invested in IKEA while writing books 3 and 6.

Edit: Off for of
AJ MacPherson
46. Mackey62
@ 30

"Because he wasn't born on the slopes of the Dragonmount? Really now, the Prophecies are quite clear on this point and as an educated man Logain had to know that."

The Pattern was forcing out false dragons. That was the explaination given. Can't fight the pattern. The flase dragon in Tear couldn't even channel. I would say they didn't have complete control of the situation. And Prophecies are normally criptic, why should they take take that one on face value.

@ 31

Never made that connection with Mat's luck. Why I love reading all your comments.
Sean Arthur
47. wsean
Haha, love the Clue references.

The SGs continue to be annoying. Honestly, would it be that hard to let Mat try and help you, after you've dragged him all the way out here? Hell, if they'd actually talked to him at this point, they could've set the terms they wanted so he couldn't be overprotective or overbearing. *shrug*

The kidnapping... I forgot that another AS was in command until the kidnapping was complete. That was actually very smart of them. A red in command initially would've been sure to put Rand on his guard.

Ugh, Galina. Honestly, after rereading some of the Shaido stuff, I almost felt sorry for her... but she gets what's coming to her.

@31 Whoa! Never noticed that at all.
Barry T
48. blindillusion
Ah hindsight @ Mat walking around the corner just as the WW runs off...probably right to the closet where the Ter and Sa'Ters were kept to grab her scarf which just happened to be sitting on the Bowl, blah...isn't it grand.

And so smart of Mr. Jordan to put it right in the middle of a chapter we all wish had fallen into the waste basket because it keeps us from Rand's box time.
Rob Munnelly
49. RobMRobM
Please tell me that someone other than Free and myself are in the right age range to get Rocky Horror Picture Show references (@32 and 40).
50. cristine
I didn't notice that. Well we know the three Tavaren are connected from Mins viewings of the lights. How the lights are winning when the 3 are together and the light is losing when they are apart. I forget what book thats from. Also in COT they start seeing swirling colors when they think of each other.

31. edlihs:
Did anyone notice that Mats' luck dropped when Rand was kidnapped?
Jacy Clark
51. Amalisa
*slaps on her theatrical makeup and wriggles into her corset*

Not telling the age but, no, you are not the only ones!
Maiane Bakroeva
52. Isilel
The Pattern was forcing out false dragons. That was the explaination given. Can't fight the pattern.

Only if you are a ta'veren or close to one. By the same token Sevanna was totally innocent - after all, her shenanigans were necessary to make Perrin chose the Hammer over the Ax! It is all foretold!

Or Galina - her actions led to AS serving Rand, as mentioned in several prophecies - so she is totally blameless, right?
I am sorry, but Pattern here or there, people are still responsible for their own actions. Yes, there was a room in the Pattern for the False Dragons - and power-hungry, unscrupulous men jumped at their chances.

The prophecy where the Dragon has to be re-born on the Dragonmount is not very cryptic. At the very least there has to be some significant event on the Dragonmount in a man's life for him to honestly believe that he could qualify for the DR.

I could only absolve Logain from the crime of nearly destroying Ghealadan for selfish reasons, killing thousands in the process, if there was such an event or Ishy mislead him via dreams.

I also can't imagine that a dusty attic with a load of ter'angreal in boxes would be impossible to visualize - particularly since they had reason to try to remember it.
Egwene just thinking about a Wise One brought her to the Waste, after all.
In any case, they didn't even try, because RJ wanted this plot-line to drag out.

Oh, and couldn't _Egwene_ have tried to find it via need in T'AR, as she didn't participate before, and then fly high into the air from the roof, marking the building's location in relation to everything else?
53. Alfvaen
blindillusion @41: You're right, in many ways Tam would be the perfect person to keep Rand sane. Although I'm sure Rand either has issues about how nobody told he was adopted, or doesn't want to keep anyone he loves close to him (except Min because he's "too week"), so he wouldn't let him. But it would be nice if there was even one more Tam/Rand scene before the end of the series. Even if it's just before Rand goes off to the Grey Havens.
Jason Deshaies
54. darxbane
I get the references as well, although it has been a long time. Anyway, "A toast!" .

Sympathy for Galina? Never occurred to me. May she live a long, long, long, long life.

Don't give up on Perrin yet, kiddies. He's about to be MoA again, big time.

SG Devil's Advocate time: Let me run this scenario by you: Let's say the High Lord Weiramon was sent in Mat's place. Would you still be running for his help? This is how Elayne perceives Mat, and like it or not, first impressions are hard to crack. It is a great irony of life that those who are working hardest to break down misconceptions of themselves are the most blind to their misconceptions of others. They treat Mat the same way the "real" Aes Sedai treat them. I find this awesome, because I see it in real life all the time.
Rob Munnelly
55. RobMRobM
@53. Prediction: Tam will be living with Rand in the castle, taking care of Rand's grandkids with El and Avi, with Tam's new red-headed spouse. R
Joseph Armao
56. joeyesq
Its amazing to me that after all this time, even in a truncated re-read summary, the kidnapping of Rand gets me infuriated enough to want to hit something.
James Jones
57. jamesedjones
52 Isilel
The prophecy where the Dragon has to be re-born on the Dragonmount is not very cryptic.

But the same prophesy said that he would be born to a "woman touched by no man", which was clearly a messed up version of "maiden". Maybe he convinced himself that "born on the slopes of dragonmount" was just a way of identifying where he'd start his new identity, or be given his sword, or maybe it was supposed to be "bored on the slopes of dragonmount" (we all know there's enought Aes Sedai nearby to fulfil that one).

We see a clear example between Rand and Moiraine in Tear, when they each have a different interpretation of prophecy. Moiraine's is much more reasonable, but ultimately wrong.

I'm willing to admit that I'm giving Logain a pass on this one because he's a favorite character of mine (he doesn't actually fit into any of the excuses above), but it's very possible that he convinced himself that the prophecy didn't mean what everyone thought it meant. And it wouldn't even need as much wiggle room as an Aes Sedai oath.
Ron Garrison
58. Man-0-Manetheran
Rob: I laughed out loud. You just couldn't hear me. Must have been a Time Warp (again).
Joseph Blaidd
59. SteelBlaidd
It's probbably because everyone else is distracted by the antici..........pation of waiting for the next chapter.

@53 Brandon has promised us a reunion scene.

Re: revizualizing the Scene of the Crime(tm) my take is there are too many places in the Rahad that are close enough that they cant resolve on the right one withought a real clear picture.
Barry T
60. blindillusion
I don't know if it's ever mentioned, but how much control do Elayne and Nyn actually have over Dreamland? We know need can't be used twice (much as someone said above is crazy, but hey, it's Mr. Jordan's Family Fun Time World of Wonders here). But can these two wonder girls actually visualize somewhere and go there or is that an aspect of the Dreaming talent.


Actually I watched it the other night because my wife had never seen it.
61. almdoipad
@22 blindillusion

Did you just pull an Oscar reference? I love you.
Thomas Keith
62. insectoid
It was Miss Scarlet *cough* Galina in the Hall with the Candlestick *cough* Dragon Scepter! Obviously.

I wish we could use strikethrough. :|

Anyway, I totally agree with Leigh and others: reading this chapter the first time made me angry enough to want to smash something. Like the book, against the wall! Fortunately I didn't, and Rand escaped! Ta Da!

Olver as mini-Han Solo: Needs to be more scruffy-looking! LOL

Leigh's outro: BAHAHAhahaha...

SteelBlaidd @7: Yeah... Asmodean! *ducks into bunker*

edlihs @31 re: Mat's luck: That's interesting...I never noticed that! Makes sense, though.

RobM² @49: Nope, too young. I do know about "The Time Warp", though.

Isilel @52 re: Egwene: That would have saved a lot of time, true... but maybe Egwene "needs" something else? Dunno.
63. bluecansam
Commenter 8:

Considering that there has, to date, been no proof that a forsaken can partially block their power, we are forced to draw the conclusion that they can only block their power from being sensed. Thus, none of the aes sedai who came to the palace that day could be a forsaken in disguise. Even more, Rand has no way of even knowing a woman can shield their power from being sensed. He has matched his power with Elayne and Egwene and knows they were noted as being the strongest aes sedai in a thousand years, so I would think he has a pretty good idea of what he can and can’t do. So, unless he assumes they're all blacks, it's all in all not an entirely foolish conclusion for Rand to draw.

Nynaeve and Elayne don’t even need to envision the attic. All they have to imagine is the bowl. In TSR, Egwene is able to find the palace with the sad bracelets by picturing a drawing of one of the strange skeletons there. I think if you can find a place by translating a drawn picture of questionable accuracy into an image of bones you had never seen before, Elayne and Nynaeve can picture a bowl they held, touched, and even channeled into to find the place again. Other than that, RJ goes to great lengths to show how each street and house looks pretty much exactly the same, which means we, the reader, are to draw the conclusion that it looks so uniform that they can’t picture the exact location.

I think Siuan would have made a terrible choice as Amyrlin. Seriously, in hindsight, Egwene really is the most logical choice both for the Aes Sedai to make—for the purpose of being able to control a young Amyrlin—and from a plot standpoint.
64. Dholton
Maybe what Rand needs isn't an "Alfred", but instead an "Igor"? (See Pratchett, Terry et al).It seems oddly appropriate somehow. Although, perhaps Sulin makes a good Igor?...

re POV changes/chapters

Seems to me that this intervening chapter was perfectly placed, not poorly, by RJ to raise the suspense to a HUGE level, by design. Sure it was frustrating, but in a delicious "omigodwhatsgoingtohappennext" way. George R.R Martin aka "THE BASTARD" does the same thing in his books. So well in fact, that with EVERY pov chapter, I say "No! Keep going! Ignore the fact I said that last chapter!"

re AS kidnapping:

Truly, I was stunned by the way the AS here reached the Blinding Light of Competance. About the only example of it too. Although, I have to admit that the SAS Hall under Egwene's leadership has actually been showing signs of constructive debate and decisions lately. (as constructive as is possible for any such legislative body anyway.)
Sam Mickel
65. Samadai
I know this is off topic but can someone provide the link that shows the rankings in the level of one power that all the characters are at.

Captain Hammer
66. Randalator
Lsana @26

I will say that one thing I don't think Jordan did particularly well was his switches between PoV characters. I noticed this as far back as Great Hunt. Rand's been kidnapped, he's being held in the basement, no one knows what has happened...let's go read about Elayne and Nynaeve running around in the slums of Ebou Dar! Grrr...

Actually that is exactely how it's supposed to be done. Always switch at a cliffhanger. This is what creates tension and makes you fly through a novel.

It's so much easier to put a book away and not pick it up again soon, if a major POV section is resolved and done with, because the next section will be just as slow to read as it is now, but without the "ohmygodohmygodohmygod, what's gonna happen to Rand"-factor. That's just the way it is when picking up a new POV.

If instead you switch at such a crucial point it's an incentive to keep the reader going even if the new POV feels slow and uninteresting in comparison. And in turn if you build up another cliffhanger in the second POV section, switching back to the first will make you go full pace through that one's resolution because you want to go back to the second one just as desperately...

Samadai @65


I think there used to be a more comprehensive one at, but that one is unavailable at the moment for obvious reasons...
Tony Zbaraschuk
67. tonyz
One thing to keep in mind is that capturing false Dragons are actually something the AS *ought* to be good at, considering that they've been doing it for millennia. And they had to practice the link-and-shield drill a lot, I would guess, to get it done that fast.

Now Rand not having anyone with him when he meets with the Tower embassy, that's just fruitcake stuff.
Noneo Yourbusiness
68. Longtimefan
Random Dune moment

"Put your (Rand) in the box."

"what's in the box?"

Don Barkauskas
69. bad_platypus
Samadai @65, Randalator @66:

Here's the 13th Depository's, which is a slight re-working of Wotmania's version.

21-Level saidar strength list from the 13th Depository
Rikka Cordin
71. Rikka
Personally, I don't know why everyone's all like... I liek Logain, but I don't really know why. He's fordefinitely in my top three favorite characters, is ridiculously underplayed and better have more to do in the last books than he has this entire series (you here that, Sanderson?).

Also. While I am not excited for crazy!Rand or the whole nastiness at Dumai Wells, I am excited for "...or you shall be knelt."

very up there in badass lines of history.
Sydo Zandstra
72. Fiddler
(Sorry, I still don't have much time to go into all postings into detail ;) )

A few observations from this thread and the last one:

Regarding Andor and Cairhien, somebody mentioned that there are High Nobles and lower nobles, saying that it is something both countries have in common.

That, being true for those two countries, is not an exception. It's called Feudalism, a system that connects nobles through allegiance in a bottom-top way. And it's generally there in Randland. Borderlands, Tear, Arad Doman and Illian have it too; Tarabon probably as well, until Chaos entered... The problem with some of the countries is that they have weak rulers who cannot make a fist (Murandy) or their top Nobles are being cut off by enemies: Tarabon, Amadicia, and Amador in a way too. I'd like to say Seanchan did this only, but Thom added a lot to the chaos in Cairhien too in his vendetta.

About Elayne being Queen of both Andor and Cairhien: I can see the reason why all countries should be united for Rand. But what I cannot see is why Elayne should be Queen of Cairhien.

I have made this point before, and got named an Elayne hater (which I am not although her behaviour does irritate me at times). Andor and Cairhien can never be under one ruler. I saw people saying that Cairhien has no choice but accept her. And that's exactly why she should not be Queen.

Which city would be the Royal residence? Don't come with practical reasons about distance to have it be Caemlyn, because if you don't live in a Kingdom, you are missing a sentiment thing. Ask Belgians if they'd accept the Dutch residence as their capital.

And Cairhien being stretched out so much in resources that they should accept Elayne as Queen because they will have to swallow it is not a good reason. Caraline (backed up by Darlin) can claim the same, and in fact Tear did more to help Cairhien than Andor did.

Apart from that, Elayne has a lot more to worry about and Dobraine is doing very well.
Michael Ikeda
73. mikeda
Coming soon...

Rand learns to think "outside the box"...

74. alreadymadwitholver
“insolent grin he had picked up somewhere”
And telling a woman she had beautiful eyes! At his age! Mat did not know where Olver got it.


"anything dangerous” they will be sure to use Mat and his men as protection
Morons. Everybody says going into the Rahad is dangerous but obviously the Girls know better.

By the way, that blue eyed Seeker gets around. I believe he identifies himself as Mor.

And I'll state now my opinion on bond-compelling. It is exactly the same effect as Compulsion. Why do Aes Sedai do it? Because the ones who do don't call it Compulsion and call it by a variety of terms (bend him to your will, calling him to heel), this gives them a way around the White Tower strictures against using Compulsion. Yes, people, AS prevaricate about everything else, why not this? There are some Aes Sedai (e.g. Moiraine) who flat out call it Compulsion and absolutely hate the idea of using it.

Rikka @71
Yep.. Right next to "Disperse the Shaido, Taim. Break them."
j p
75. sps49
@63 bluecansam- The Forsaken know how to partially mask their power level, else Mesaana nor Lanfear would not be able to wander the White Tower.

The Warder bond (WOTFAQ discussion reference) must have some way to release it; or Warders would drive every sister with one mad when they died of old age.

Rand needs to mix his bodyguards up with some complimentary abilities. Guards who can be cowed by your adversaries are not able to protect you from them.

Why is Olver here at all? Comic relief? Red herring? Maybe for the 'Finns? I do laugh at Mat where Jordan wants me to, pretty much :)

Now, although Lord of Chaos has some awesome moments, this book is where the artificial dragging out of the plot begins. Compare subsequent books to how tightly written the plots were up to this point. After this we are in for overly long books (and more volumes of them) that drag but some will have some cool moments (PoD and CoT, in particular, don't have enough of the latter).

Edit: added NOT
76. AdrianLucas
Thanks Aegnor. I was having the same problem with the main page. I came to look and stayed to read :)

Leigh, may I congratulate you on the enormity of the job you have undertaken, and say thanks for the enormous pleasure you have given me with your excellent re-reads and your entertaining comments. I don't always agree with you, but its nice to see how much thought you have given the subject and your enthusiasm for the series oozes through.

Whats really great is that you aren't a blind fan. You actually disagree with Jordan and argue about stuff you don't like which is brilliant.
77. MasterAlThor
You guys are bloody hilarious.

First Clue and now you are on to the Rocky Horror Picture Show. By the way, I have never seen it. Being black it wasn't really in my wheel house. But my wife will be going with some friends to watch it this weekend. And I have tons of friends who have seen it and said it's the bees knees.

I certainly hated the Time Warp. Sorry.

Has anyone ever seen Noises Off? Now that is comedy gold. Of course if you start talking about things like the Castle Anthrax we will be here all night.
Vincent Lane
78. Aegnor
I saw the Rocky Horror Picture Show. I can't say I liked it. The only thing that makes it interesting is the stuff surrounding it (it is usually an event).
Lannis .
79. Lannis
Oh, Nerim! It's simple. Blood on an item? Soak it in cold water. Now, I don't speak as a psycho so much as a mother (sometimes this can be one and the same... at times I believe motherhood has broken my brain...). Anyhow... cold water, and Shout. It's gone. Simple? Simple.

(Though somehow I think Nerim's bloody garment to clean has a tad more on it than the jeans that had the nosebleed over them...)

Re: Egwene releasing Logain... I'm glad she did it, for the simple reason that she can't support one man who can channel and go about gentling the rest... but I like the approach to this, and that (after the fact) it is very obviously Egwene's idea, and not Siuan's... it seems to me that at this point I was unsure as to whether Egwene was just doing what Siuan strongly implied, and was little more than Siuan's puppet... but this move solidified the "Egwene as independent Amyrlin" for me.

edlihs @ 31: re: Mat's luck dropping when Rand is kidnapped... nice catch! Never saw that...

Ah, Lan, so good of you to join us! Cheer up! Myrelle's a skank, we know, but here, have a cookie!
Alice Arneson
80. Wetlandernw
Fiddler @ 72 - who cares which is the "royal residence"? Elayne can Travel back and forth fifteen times a day if she wants. Does it matter where she sleeps most of the time?

Not that I personally think its necessarily the best idea in some ways, but I certainly understand the reasons why Elayne is a better choice than most of the others. For that matter, Caraline and Darlin are going to be busy with Tear, so the same arguments could apply to them - and they can't Travel.

Just being argumentative. :P
81. MasterAlThor
I guess I should explain how I got inducted into Noises Off and Holy Grail and not into RHPS. Noises Off is completly my wifes fault. And as I've only been married for 6yrs (we've been together for 10)she has the rest of our lives to introduce me to the funny.

Highschool does many things to a person. Monty Python is one of them. My friends loved Holy Grail. I watched it one day, and have loved it ever since.

RHPS, I have never seen it. I don't believe I have any interest in seeing it. At one point I hated anything to do with it. I (mistakenly) believed that anyone who had anything to do with it was a doofenshmirtz. I did get them. Oh I went to the midnight showings of The Wall, but never Rocky Horror.

I guess like Steampunk, I just don't get it.

Now that I am more seasoned (older) I have more appreciation for different things. Like broccoli. Maybe if I just sit down and watch it.

Sorry for the tangent. Onward
82. MasterAlThor

ROFLMAO. My wife is giving me the look. I agree and fatherhood has the same results.

WTFME. (wiping tears from my eyes) Have a cookie.

I can just imagine some villian explaining how his nefarious plot is going to work and offers the captive hero with a cookie. HA!

You might be up for comic of the year.
83. Hammerlock
Leigh, please please PLEASE do the next 3 chapters all in one go. I don't think I can last the weekend waiting on the Wells. :)

As for the Stunning Example of Competence, it occurs to me that Rand would probably have wound up in the Tower if Galina didn't get greedy and try to whack Gawyn with the Shaido in the Conserva--er, Wells.

Well, might have. Asha'man Travelling could/would have still headed them off if they were getting too close to TV.
Roger Powell
84. forkroot
A scene from The Eye of the World

Rand and Mat clamber down from the back of Almen Bunt's cart. They are clearly impressed by the great white city before them.

Rand: Caemlyn!

Mat: Caemlyn!

Almen Bunt: It's only a model.
Hurin Smells
85. HurinSmells
For me this begins the best close out of any WoT book so far... I friggin' love the way RJ uses this kidnapping to harden Rand into steel, and btw illustrates just how lethal he is now! (killing 2 warders with his bare hands while shielded! awwwww yeah). Bring on the Wells baby!

On a side note, I think the lack of an "Alfred" for Rand is used well to show just how un-trusting of everyone he really is. Being tricked too many times by Forsaken/DFs trying to get close to him, on top of extreme paranoia from chanelling tainted saidin will do that to ya! Oh and Alanna didn't help matters either.
86. drothgery
Did I mention how badly I'd like a smart but weak in the One Power villian to end up with one of the Forsaken in his or her control at some point? I'm still not sure how the BA never managed to kidnap Ishy; Alviarin certainly ought to have been able to arrange a circle with one of the tower's sa'angreal to trap Mesaana.
John Riggs
87. jmvreality
Actually, Rand had an "Alfred" for a little while, in Asmodean. Just saying.

More interesting to me is Vanin's attachment to Elayne. Does anybody else see the development of the Band of the Red Hand as Elayne's personal bodyguard and army, while simultaneously justifying Manetheren as a companion state of Andor?

I don't know. But it seems plausible.
Lannis .
88. Lannis
MasterAlThor @ 82... thank you sir! And I appreciate the solidarity in parenthood. ;)

Hurin @ 85: I agree, LOC has a fabulous build up, and the tension is palpable... so delicious! I eat it up, completely furious and indignant on Rand's behalf, and this is about where I start to devour the end of LOC... can't wait for it!
89. MasterAlThor

Can Mat have a troubador singing how he bravely ran away in FoH?


Yours was great!
Roger Powell
90. forkroot

Oh the possibilities are endless...

Rand to Harid Fel: This new learning amazes me, Fel. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to seal the Dark One's prison.
Hurin Smells
91. HurinSmells

or to use a slightly different but equally good reference...

Dragonsworn to Rand: He is the Dragon Reborn
Cadsuane: No he's not, he's a very naughty boy!

or how about...

Mat: how much is this fox and ravens ring?
Ebou Dari street vendor: 20 gold pieces
Mat: here you go
Ebou Dari street vendor: don't you want to haggle?
Joseph Blaidd
92. SteelBlaidd
Noises Off is hilarious.

On the feasibility of an Andor-Cairhein super state, remember that Elizibeth II is still queen of Australia, Canada, and New Zeland not just the U.K. Adding traveling to the mix makes administering a larger territory much more feasible.

On a completely different tack, I think it's interesting that even Birgitte is only just now realizing how dangerous Mat can be , and she ought to know better.
93. MasterAlThor

How about this???

The Finn as the Keeper of the Bridge of Death or
Tam telling Rand that he has to marry Egwene cause she has huge tracks of land.

Bela as the vorpral horse. She's got huge fangs.
94. Sir Hubert

I think this slow realization might be the first instance/clue that Birgitte is loosing parts of her memory as is elaborated on in the later books.
95. MasterAlThor

What is the airsspeed of an unladen swallow?


Best scene backstage globetrotters with the flowers and wine. I think I peed my pants.
96. MasterAlThor
Oh my I got it....I got it.

Here is what should be used for all *headdesking* in the future.

Pie Jesu Domine, *headdesk* dona eis requiem.

That is good, oh real good
97. Freelancer

I don't think it's correct to say that the Pattern was forcing out false dragons. If you have a reference, by all means. What I know for sure the text says is that once Rand, the real Dragon Reborn declared, the Pattern had no room for false dragons, and that's when both Taim and the unnamed one in Haddon Mirk were taken down.
98. Freelancer

Igor, or Eyegore? ::Marty Feldman reference::
100. Freelancer

But he's a flaming fly-whisk! He must be underplayed, or he couldn't have lines like that...
101. Freelancer
RobMRobM, Amalisa, SteelBlaidd, Darxbane, and those smart enough to pretend ignorance...

I had the fortune (good or bad, TBD) of being in my late-teens in the late '70s, somewhere in SoCal. Let's say, within reasonable driving distance of the Tiffany Theatre on Sunset Blvd on a Saturday night.

Let's see... Rice, Newspaper, Squirt Gun, Lighter, Rubber Gloves, Noisemakers, Confetti, Toilet Paper, Toast, Party Hat, Playing Cards, Hot Dog ... Check! All set.

102. peachy
@86 - Verin's not a villain, probably, but she delays when she has a chance to blow Graendal away at SL because she's thinking of a way to capture her instead; delays, in fact, to the point that her companions joggle her elbow and tell her to hurry up and DO something already. But after all, "a captive Forsaken might prove very useful."
Jay Dauro
103. J.Dauro
tonyz @67

They have been doing it for a long time, but not too often. Only 16 times in the last twenty years. (24 were gentled, but only 16 transported to the white tower, and so shielded for any length of time.) And most of them were not very strong. 6 is the traditional number, but Cadsuane has shielded some of them alone.

MasterAlThor @77

Seen these:
Rocky Horror
Noises Off (done it twice.) Great show
All of Monty Python - Even have the complete Flying Circus on DVD

And it is amazing how all of these and more turn up here.

79 Lannis

"and Shout"
I know what you mean, but advanced chemistry is probably not very common in Randland. Maybe he should just yell "Out, out damned spot!"

Fiddler @72

Although it was not always popular for a king/queen to rule over multiple kingdoms, it has happened often. And without traveling. And for real, not just like Elizabeth II and the Commonwealth.

Forkroot @84


Do we get the lego men dancing? (If you haven't seen the DVD - you need to.)
Ron Garrison
104. Man-0-Manetheran
OK. Well as long as we're on this Rocky Horror digression... Probably the best episode of the Drew Carey Show was when they all dressed up for the midnight show of RHPS. On arrival at the theatre they found it was showing Priscilla Queen of the Desert - along with a line of fans in Priscilla drag. What to do? They had a rumble a'la West Side Story - a dance-off.
James Jones
105. jamesedjones
97 Freelancer

We actually covered this in a different post. Check Moiraine in Chapt 5 of tGH The Shadow in Shienar.
Until he proclaims himself, the Pattern will continue to throw up false Dragons, but after that there will be no others.
So, until Rand appeard above Falme, the Pattern forced a new false Dragon every other week, except on government holidays.

Edit: Wasn't trying to throw it back in your face. The first time I typed it, I used 'Threw up' like Moiraine. And I just felt that 'forced' sounded better. The itallics were just how I was sounding it to myself because of the change.
John Massey
106. subwoofer
AHHHHHHH! Let's get ready to rumble!!

K' folks, these discussions are getting wayyyyy too academic for me so I'll lower the bar just a little.

First off- thanks to SteelBlaidd( in my heart it is now wool) for the link to Pratchett. Gaspode was always a hero of mine :)

For the rest of you- Haven't you heard of BUBBLE WRAP?! Covering your desks in the stuff would greatly reduce blunt force trauma and the resulting need for Advil. If you do not heed my advice, lemme know so I can load up on pharmaceuticals in my porfolio.

I am ignoring any RHPS references as that movie just left me feeling dirty.IIRC the word "douche" originated with that movie IMHO- @Free- WTF?!"Woof. In tones of low menace."

-- Gaspode the wonder dog
I need a cookie now, maybe some sardines. Maybe go watch Noises Off...

Gaaaaa- where was I? O' ya, Rand, butler theory is strong here. I don't see any AS picking up Rand's dirty underwear/hose/small clothes. It would have helped Rand greatly when Avi was sitting on his things back when- yeah, a butler...

Elayne needs to spend more time listening to her Warder. Brigette is only a Hero of the Horn, been around for thousands of years... I dunno, crazy talk.

Ny- yup she needs Lan. Infinitely more likable character with the big guy at her side. Would be interesting to see the final meet when the bond is passed.

"Woof bloody woof."

Edit- Tor folks- Torie, Pablo etc. perhaps updating the links to previous posts on the index. Only goes up to 26...
Rob Munnelly
107. RobMRobM
@95 - African or European?

@84, 89-91 - "I am the Dragon Reborn and my knights and I are on a quest for the ter'greal named Callendar." "We've already got one. (I told him we've already got one). And your mother smells of elderberries...."

@68 - great scene. "No girl has never taken that much pain. I must have wanted him to fail."

51, 54, etc - but especially 59. Excellent!
Rob Munnelly
108. RobMRobM
Free - Bravo. That helps me relieve my ten....sion.
109. somewheresouth
I don't have anything sensible to say, but:

@63 - A circle of 13 All Blacks can turn anything :)

@68 that's awesome. heh. I love Dune jokes.
James Jones
110. jamesedjones
106 subwoofer

Thank you for 36.8 stress free seconds. :)
111. MasterAlThor

Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.
112. MasterAlThor
I'm going to by the DVD tomorrow.

We are the Ogier who say Ni and we require a shrubbery
113. MasterAlThor
Ok, I gotta quit. We might actually piss someone off here.
114. Valan
For the record, when I first read The Taking, I screamed at the book. For a while. I am Jack's unadulterated rage.

@ Blindillusion 41

Nicely played.

@47 wsean
"The SGs continue to be annoying. Honestly, would it be that hard to let Mat try and help you, after you've dragged him all the way out here? Hell, if they'd actually talked to him at this point, they could've set the terms they wanted so he couldn't be overprotective or overbearing. *shrug*"

Well it might have worked out, but I really don't see Mat accepting any terms. And we've seen what happens to people who bargain with Mat.

@ 49
I got it and I'm 24. Rocky Horror's a cult classic and I don't doubt you can find regular presentations of it in most major cities. Hell they do one every Saturday in Fort Worth.
115. somewheresouth
oh crap, I've just re-read that. I meant it in a rugby way/or a nice way, not in a disturbing australian-rugby-league-player way. sorry...

Also, I've just had what is probably an entirely unoriginal Looney Theory - Logain as Samwise Gamgee - Rand dies trying to kill the DO/ loses the fight and Logain finishes it off, gets all the glory and rules the BT happily ever after while Rand "grey havens" it and goes to live on a farm in the formerly Amayarian islands (that's a bit Arthurian too?)

@112 MasterAlThor - I think you have just Ruined Forever my image of Ogier...
Ron Garrison
116. Man-0-Manetheran
MasterAlThor - I have it on very good authority that coconuts DO migrate. In fact they sound like galloping horses.
117. MasterAlThor
Ok Ok....I got two more

Bring out your dead!

Here ya go

I can't take him, he's not dead yet

I feel better, I think I might go for a walk

Last one

We're Ashaman of the round table....
118. Freelancer
BTW, Longtimefan@68

Nicely done. When my kids are pushing their limits, I offer them what's in the box. They understand. We all laugh. My wife rolls her eyes. We're weird.



Oh, of course I consider myself completely grown out of any interest in low-grade trash like RHPS. I mean really...

stefan warsink
119. grubber
MasterAlThor @96

that definitely put the cherry on the cake for me. I know what movie I'll watch tonight!

yay reread! thanks Leigh..

EDIT: thanks to all for the references. now I need to watch more :)
120. alreadymadwithButlers
Hammerlock @83
Can you imagine how the Battle would have played out within sight of the White Tower? In their currently depleted state, 300 Aes Sedai would be no match for 200 Asha'man. At the very worst, the White Tower would be literally torn down. On the plus side, it'd get rid of Elaida that much more quickly.

Re: Butler
It's actually a good idea and I'd agree Asmo was the last to play that role for him. Nowadays Bashere pitches in when he can, but you can't exactly compare him to Alfred. More like Commissioner Gordon.
121. MasterAlThor
A dub where ya been? Missed out on all the goodness.

Would have like to seen all the titles you would have come up with
John Massey
122. subwoofer
*** perhaps this episode of Drew. Or even, or maybe...

Gonna go bleach my eyeballs now.


typing bling WoT related, how did Rand get the Dragon Scepter back? What was the point of keeping it around.

Mat, gotta love him. Daughter of the Nine moons, poor schmuck.

@22 Blindillusion you forgot...

Berelain. Boobs. 'Nuff said.

123. MasterAlThor
Damn you Subwoofer, you got me watching those.

AMW? Where ya been?
Ron Garrison
124. Man-0-Manetheran
Thanks woofer, and this is the link I was referring to: [url=[/url] Drew.
John Massey
125. subwoofer
Nope, not gonna do it- bleach hurts too much...

Thomas Garst
126. Garstzilla
Dammit Janet they took Rand!!! You dont know RHPS until you got two rows of cowboys in the back throwing beer bottles instead of toast. There's your rumble in the theater. One to the back of the head and the screen really was spinning. When you picture Weirmon dont you see the man with no neck. When you see Riff Raff think Asmodeanor or a halfman. Oh hey that makes Brad Rand. Janet could be Nyn easy. Could the Lips belong to the Dark One. Meatloaf could double for a Trollock. I running low now. Who do you think Frank-n-furter would be?
Barry T
127. blindillusion
Hmm, this thread went to some funny places. But as long as we're doing crazy, I'll play too:>

Ihvon: Ma'am

Alanna: What?

Ihvon: Aren't we being a little too literal?

Alanna: No you fool, we're following orders- we were told to comb the Blight, so we're combing it? -- Find anything YET!?

Radom Accepted: Nothing yet, Ma'am!

Alanna: How about you!?

2nd RA: Not a thing Ma'am.

Alanna: What about you guys?

2 Random Novices: We ain't found shit!
Hurin Smells
128. HurinSmells
I got another one...

Rand: I am the Dragon Reborn
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Rand: You dont vote for the Dragon Reborn
Woman: Well how'd you become the Dragon Reborn then?
Rand: My Maiden mother gave birth to me on the slopes of Dragonmount, twice and twice i was marked...
Dennis: Listen, bird shaped burns on your hands and flashy tattoos on your arms is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical branding ceremony!
Rand: Be quiet!
Dennis: Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because you got a picture of a bird on your hand!
Rand: SHUT UP!
Dennis: Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Dragon Reborn, just because of some snake with legs tattoo'd on my arms, they'd put me away!
Dennis:Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Rand: SHUT UP!
Dennis:Oh, come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

or how about...

Mat get's up after a wall falls on him in Ebou Dar
Beggar in the street: You lucky bastard
129. Dholton
@98 Freelancer

I always pronounced it EYEgore. But who knows? Ask Pratchett. But in the spirit of this particular thread, here's the scene I imagine with Rand and Igor:

Igor: Oh Thir, I thee you've been wounded again. The hand thith time? We'll get that patched up in a jiffy. I have new hand, just in, fresh from the market.

Rand: Ow. Igor, that's my wrist not a side of beef!

Igor: Yes Thir, my lord ith not a thide of beef. Would you like a thecond thumb on this one Thir? Very *ahem* handy in the more ethoteric sthord forms I underthtand.
Barry T
130. blindillusion
Here's one...

Rand and Tam after a back-breaking hug.

Rand: Tam, I'm sorry it's been so long si...
Tam: Wait son, what's with this "Tam" crap.
Rand: Dad then, I'm the Dragon Reborn.
Tam: Yes Rand, I know.
Rand: I'm meant to save the world.
Tam: I know, I know.
Rand: Dad, I have Aes Sedai, Nobles, everyone bow..
Tam: Wait Rand, I know all that.
Rand: But Dad, I'm the Dragon Reborn!!
Tam: I know and I just have one question.
Rand: What's that?
Tam: Where's Bela?
131. jotto
@ leigh, kudos for the Spinal Tap referance.
132. bluecansam
Commenter 75:

You can only assume they can partially mask their power. There are no POVs from the female forsaken while they’re in the tower, so there’s no, “Lanfear partially masked her power to appear weaker.” And without that, it’s only theoretical speculation that they can do so.
Thomas Garst
133. Garstzilla
Orban: Hey Gann do we still got to use these coconuts while we walk down the road.
Gann: Do you want people to think we have come down in the world, we are Hunters of the Horn, we have killed many Aiel we can’t let on that we lost our horses to that Knight who said Ne.
134. Valan
@ 128 Hurin
HAHAHAHAHAHA. That one was great.

Well if the FS are walking around the tower, the AS would notice either 1) she can't sense the power or 2) they're uber strong. The logical conclusion is that they can partially mask they're power. It'd prolly hold up in court. :) But, hey, could be an authorial mishap.
135. jotto
@ 130 or anybody, do you think Tam knew who or what Rand was before Rand left the TwoRivers?

Tam is a savvy man, he did learn things when he was out in the world. It is not impossible he picked up part of the prophosy of the dragon. Does any body think the thought might have occured to him?
136. Valan
Can't help myself:

Rand consumes Ba'alzamon with fire:

Ba'alzamon C'mon you pansy!

Rand stabs Ba'alzamon through the heart.

Ba'alzamon 'Tis but a scratch!

Rand Kicks Ba'alzamon's ass in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Ba'alzamon Alright, we'll call it a draw.
Thomas Garst
137. Garstzilla
ROFLMAO Valan@136 That was the best one yet.
Alice Arneson
138. Wetlandernw
bluecansam @ 132 - Well, Lanfear was walking around the WT pretending to be the novice Else Grinwell, after the real Else is sent home. Don't you think someone would have noticed that "Else" suddenly had this amazing power level? I seem to recall RJ said that yes, you can disguise your power level if you know what you're doing, just like you can hide the fact that you can channel at all. Not common knowledge, either one.

If I can find the RJ reference, I will, but probably not until tomorrow.
139. bluecansam
From the books, you only know for sure that they can mask it entirely. Else would have been thought to have no power, not a ton of power. While one would be incredibly obvious, in a novice, the other wouldn't have been remarkable at all.

So, Until that RJ quote is found, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.
Sean Banawnie
140. Seanie
Leigh: I am ROFLMAO . You musta spread some serious
hallucigenics in this post because, like WOW , everyone WENT OFF . Was like a nerd -a-rama . *wipes tears , holds sore ribs-leaves to change peed pants....*
I remember getting brained with toast...thankfully white bread....todays twelve grains could knock ya out.
now back to WOT....
edlihs@31 good point about Mats luck...kinda reminds me of TEOTW where the battle at Tarwins Gap is dependent on Rand's battle with Baazalmon (sic?)

TGS approacheth!
Roger Powell
141. forkroot
OK, OK ... Sorry ... I guess I'm responsible for starting the Holy Grail subthread (with MasterAlThor). I'm now feeling suitably guilty as I recall a quote from Jaquandor
So it’s with nothing but love and heartfelt concern that I inform you that walking around shouting quotes from Monty Python and the Holy Grail like “I’m bein’ repressed!” and “Ni!” is the Renaissance Festival equivalent of shouting “Freebird!” at a rock concert. Don’t do this, folks. Wandering through a Renaissance Festival with your friends, pretending to debate the airspeed of an unladen swallow, is just shooting fish in a barrel. Don’t do it.
Although he was talking about behavior at a Renaissance Festival, it seems like the same sort of guideline should apply to commenting on any fantasy series set in a quasi-Medieval setting.

(Of course I still laughed my ass off at: MasterAlThor@117 and HurinSmells@128)

To give full credit, I discovered the above quote while reading Shamus Young's hilarious DM of the Rings.
Alice Arneson
142. Wetlandernw
bluecansam @ various - Very quickly, here's what I found tonight in the WoTFAQ:
John Nowacki reports that RJ said, at a post-TPOD booksigning in Washington, DC, that a channeler can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that few people know how to do it and the AS don't even know these tricks are possible.
It may not be ironclad evidence, but your claim that "...there has, to date, been no proof that a forsaken can partially block their power, we are forced to draw the conclusion that they can only block their power from being sensed" isn't exactly ironclad either. Lack of hard proof that they can is no proof at all that they can't.

I go with the evidence that since Mesaana, Lanfear and Graendal have all been in the WT within the past couple of years, and Mesaana lives there as someone who has a reason to be wearing silk gowns, there's at least good evidence if not hard proof for the ability to disguise strength in the Power. Regarding the Lanfear/Else episode, wouldn't it look a bit odd if a novice who previously had some (at least minimal) strength suddenly had none at all? We have no proof that anyone checked, but we have no proof that they didn't either. So lack of proof isn't much of an argument. So... you may be forced to conclude they can't disguise strength, but the rest of us aren't forced to conclude any such thing.
143. bluecansam
But the point is moot, as we're trying to follow Rand's logic here.

Rand gets shielded. He thinks that only a woman forsaken could do that. Does he think one of them is a forsaken? Possibly. He does know that three aes sedai cannot take him, which, again, is a reasonable assumption to make, as he just handled seven a week earlier, he handle Elayne and Egwene in TSR, and he was easily able to bat aside Alana and Verin. So, perhaps an over confident, arrogant assumption to draw, but definitely not unfounded.

I would imagine at this point he's shocked and trying to think as fast as he can to try and draw a conclusion so he can react. Suddenly he sees the servant’s faces and knows that there are more than 13 aes sedai there.
144. bluecansam
Lack of proof is a good argument; it's the basis of all scientific endeavors. Save for that RJ quote, which obviously closes the argument definitively, there was only circumstantial evidence of your claim, which means that before RJ said so, you could not draw a hard-lined conclusion.
145. bluecansam
And this'll be my last post on the issue as to not beat it to death too much.

Basically, we are given definitive knowledge that a forsaken can mask their power completely. Your evidence is also given, but it isn't conclusive. So, since your evidence isn't conclusive, you are forced to be uncertain of your statement that an aes sedai can partially mask their ability, which makes any argument predicated on the assumption that an aes sedai can partially mask their ability flimsy.

But more mootness, as you gave that RJ quote above. *grin*
146. a box!
@129 Dholton & @98 Freelancer
For what it's worth, Igor is pronounced (from the Russian) like the word "eager" as in eager-ly I wait the morrow quoth Balthamel "Aginor!"
ok bad joke...

Rand: We've been shielded!
LTT: Who do you mean 'we', pale-face?

of course, LTT does come back and help.
which reminds me
the Audio rendition of LTT's crazy death mantra antics against the forsaken, and then galina & co is pure gold if you haven't heard it.

I'm def. not old enough to be quoting the lone ranger, but I think the RHPS pictures say it all.. creepy!

all my other thoughts (about hiding channeler ability) were answered in much better depth than I could have managed in the time it took me to write this post. I bow before the masters.
147. Freelancer

But you obviously didn't realize you were arguing with Wetlandernw. If she says it's been said, buddy, go bank it. ;-)

Besides, the circumstantial evidence is actually quite strong, if you don't pretend it doesn't exist.

- Mesaana as a little-known sister in the Tower. If she was completely masking her channeling ability, it would have drawn suspicion instantly. If she did not mask her power (and remember, LTT knows that Mesaana is far more powerful than the current Aes Sedai), it would have been more than noticed, since we are all aware that sisters sense each other's strength constantly, and establish pecking order therewith. Either condition would "unmask" her as being out of place, so the truth must be something other than either. We're not left with much other than being able to disguise one's level of strength.

- Lanfear as Else Grinwell. Not as strong a case, because she might have only played Else for a couple of minutes, and at this point our girls haven't the knack of measuring strength that way. But if she, appearing as a novice, were sensed for even a moment as either a non-channeler, or as the uber-woman of all channelers, by a passing sister, it would have caused a scene. Lanfear isn't as sneaky as Moghedien, but she isn't reckless either.

- Moghedien in captivity in Salidar. We know she is rarely allowed to channel, but she must when showing an "unknown" weave to the girls. Dare they risk someone nearby sensing an unheard of strength? Yes, it seems Nynaeve is of a matching strength, but if Nynaeve is in the same tent, two saidar-wielders of her ability would be sensed, and then the secret is out. Now, I can't say if she has chosen to tell the SGs of this, or is simply doing it from self-preservation, but I have little doubt that Moghedien is partially masking her strength when "teaching".

Cogent, reasonable circumstantial evidence is NOT the same thing as your "lack of proof". It is an argument, but not nearly as good as you make it out to be.
Sean Arthur
148. wsean
Freelancer, you sure you're not of the White Ajah?

Although I disagree with one of your examples. There would have been no need for Moghedien to unmask the ability at all. She simply would have left the weaves she was showing the girls uninverted. Masking the ability and inverting one's weaves are two separate things.
149. Freelancer
Hmm, this thread went to some funny places.

Yes, but you started it @22 by bringing up Tim Curry. How could you not know where that would lead?

And while I am a card-carrying Pythonite, the "shooting fish in a barrel" comment rings true. But then again, we don't refrain from Princess Bride quotes, do we?
150. bluecansam

A well thought out argument. I don’t know any of you, as I’m a newbie to these discussions. I haven’t read the FAQ yet, which is, as Leigh says, a good place to start as primers. The tiny bit of it I did read is the way I prefer to read arguments, though. I’m a bit of a purist and like quotes, page numbers, and links.

I haven’t read the later books in a while, but is there a quote where Mesaana says she’s masquerading as an aes sedai? Sure there’s the silk dress that that dark sister sees, forget her name, but the dress was hidden under an illusion of shadows. I could easily imagine someone wearing a silk dress to feel comfortable, but then weaving a wool dress disguise over it. Of course, there’s the arrogance factor to consider, but that isn’t an entirely strong argument.

I seem to remember Siuan saying that Else had no talent for learning, and only sighs at the warders. I feel ashamed for breaking my own rule by not providing a page and direct quote, but I don't have my books to hand. At any rate, I never got the idea that Else had any power for the Aes sedai to sense.

How about this, though. Moghedian in a tent, partially masking her ability. If she were doing that, don’t you think Nynaeve or Elayne would say, “Hey! You’re partially masking your ability! How the heck do you do that?” I would more think that the SGs used the cover of tons of sisters channeling all the time to mask the strength of the things Moghedian was teaching them.
Thomas Keith
151. insectoid
Wow! This thread is dynamite! All went sideways for some reason! NI! ;)

Good thing I was in the bunker or I might've had my arm cut off!

(I'll find something more constructive to say as soon as I manage to wade through all these comments...)
Barry T
152. blindillusion

Moi? Well, I did so love Tim Curry in Legend. And I'm still kinda a newb when it comes to this thread. But I must say, the CO has quested what I'm doing a few times for LOLing because of you guys. It's been great.


In serval Q&As Mr. Jordan said Tam had the information necessary but didn't really start putting it together until Moiraine took the boys in tEotW. Even now, according to Mr. Jordan, Tam has troubles accepting it.

(I'd include the required quotes but it's 430 in the morning. This is a good place to read up on some stuff:
Birgit F
153. birgit
Why didn't Egwene call out Elayne for not taking Mat along?

Because they gave her evasive AS answers when she asked about Mat.

Nynaeve and Elayne don’t even need to envision the attic. All they have to imagine is the bowl.

That would just create a new TAR Bowl, like Eg imagining Bela.

The Warder bond (WOTFAQ discussion reference) must have some way to release it; or Warders would drive every sister with one mad when they died of old age.

Warders can be released. AS don't go mad when they lose a Warder (unless you count Alanna), they just weep all the time for months.
If an Ashaman and an AS bond each other, would that create a bond between equal partners?

do you think Tam knew who or what Rand was before Rand left the TwoRivers?

When he joins Perrin to free Faile Tam says that he found out when Taim came to recruit in the TR.

I seem to remember Siuan saying that Else had no talent for learning, and only sighs at the warders.

Else must be able to learn or the wouldn't have been accepted as a Novice. She just was more interested in men than channeling lessons.

If the visions RMP have when they think of each other had started earlier, Perrin would have found out sooner about the kidnapping.
Maiane Bakroeva
154. Isilel
Bleuecansam @150:

I seem to remember Siuan saying that Else had no talent for learning, and only sighs at the warders.

Else remained a novice for more than half a year - she came before first SGs arrived and left 10 days before their second return in TDR many months later. She definitely could channel - she just didn't have enough potential for the Tower to try very hard to retain her and cure her out of her laziness.
Rob Munnelly
155. RobMRobM
I'm speechless with all the great riffs on RHPS and Monty Python. Thanks. After all, we are all individuals (I'm not). R

P.s. To me, given the Mesanna example, it appears very likely, if not certain, Foresaken can partially mask their power. She is living in the tower wearing silk; likely she is hiding as a sister, given the dress and fact that hiding as a servant may mean she'd have to work too hard; and, if so, she's showing up as a regular sister and not the most powerful channeler in it. QED.

the Lanfear example is not as good because Elsie is weak enough she might not register, so Lanfear could just mask her power totally rather than reduce it.

And when was Graendel in the tower? I don't recall that.
John Massey
156. subwoofer
Hmm, this thread went to some funny places.

Understatement of the week... This thread went off the rails and slid down skid row on down to tramp village. Was expecting to look back on this post and turn into a pillar of salt. Hey, people gotta have fun, but why does it have to be one of the few movies that drives me up the wall? That and Battle Field Earth...

Masking power levels. I am sure it does not only happen in Dragon Ball, and it makes sense. If everyone knew how powerful you were it helps with the AS hierarchy but what if you wanted to blend in? Or, what if you wanted your opponents to underestimate you and lay surprises for them. Maybe it is a Talent that is learned, maybe a Ter found can do it. I dunno, but the idea can really be taken and run with. Heck, as far as I am concerned, Rand should of been doing that from the word jump. Right up there with Warding his dreams.

john mullen
157. johntheirishmongol
RHPS fans are pretty much everywhere but you do find a concentration of the at RenFaires. If medieval reinactment is what you are interested in and you wish to learn and participate rather than just be a spectator, I would suggest checking out the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA). My nickname on here is my scadian name. Lot's of fun, dancing, fighting, drinking and other activities goes on.

As for the first chapter, I remember my feeling was omg, the bad guys finally did something effective. I did wonder how they got Rand and Min alone to do it, because any court I have ever seen has hanger's on constantly in the background.

I too felt the second chapter was badly sequenced, thinking if would have fit fine just before or after the Dumai Wells, but not right in the middle. Brigette's comment was good, but she would recognize fighters where the SG would think that was of little or no importance at all.
158. Freelancer
"As for Else Grinwell. . . . I remember the girl. She could have learned, had she applied herself, but all she wanted was to smile at the men at the Warder's practice yard. Else Grinwell was put on a trading vessel and sent back to her mother ten days ago."
Siuan speaking to Nynaeve in the kitchens.

As for Mesaana, there is no proof she is masquerading as Aes Sedai, only that she is headquartered in the White Tower. The conventional wisdom, however, favors that she is Danelle, a Brown. According to Sammael, Mesaana had a hand in the kidnapping plot. Much harder to do that from behind the scenes, and she couldn't have done it via Alviarin alone, since Elaida isn't taking Alviarin's advice quite yet. So very likely she is a sister having some influence with Elaida. Danelle was part of the inner group that captured and stilled Siuan. She is also barely known by other sisters, keeps mostly to herself, and has no friends in the Tower. Those would be a requirement for a forsaken to operate freely in such a place.


Feeling lazy right now. Who said Graendal was in the Tower? If she visited there, it isn't spoken of.
Rob Munnelly
159. RobMRobM

See wetlander at 142:
"I go with the evidence that since Mesaana, Lanfear and Graendal have all been in the WT within the past couple of years, and Mesaana lives there as someone who has a reason to be wearing silk gowns, there's at least good evidence if not hard proof for the ability to disguise strength in the Power....."

So, is it time for the "She's all wet" puns?
160. Lsana
@92. SteelBlaidd,

Elayne ruling Andor and Cairhein isn't really comparable to Elizabeth ruling the UK, Canada, and Australia. First of all, she is only a symbolic head of state for those countries, not the head of government. Secondly, all those countries share a common heritage and culture. Andor and Cairhein don't have that relationship.

The closest real-life parallels I can think of are Henry V's attempt to claim the throne of France and the dual monarchy in Austria-Hungary. Neither ended particularly well.

@147 Freelancer,

While I do believe that it's possible to partially mask strength, your examples are all flawed:

1) Messana may not be masquerading as an Aes Sedai. Just as Lanfear was "willing to bear a little fat," and Moghedien was willing to play kitchen maid, Messana could easily be willing to pretend to be a servant. Servants, after all, can go pretty much anywhere and listen to anything, and the Aes Sedai underestimate them. A little compulsion, and she doesn't even have to do any work.

2) Else was a novice. Would it necessarily be all that remarkable for a novice who wasn't a sparker and hadn't really learned yet not to show up on an Aes Sedai's "women who can channel" radar? Elayne seems to believe that she wouldn't necessarily be able to sense a learner who hadn't channeled yet.

3) I don't believe that hiding your ability makes it impossible to channel. Moghedien could have shown the girls the weaves while leaving her ability completely masked.
161. J.Dauro
RobMRobM and Freelancer

In aCos Prologue, Alviarin recalls that Greandal visited the White Tower.
162. Freelancer
So, is it time for the "She's all wet" puns?

Umm, no, I don't think so.
On her knees, Alviarin repeated every word that Elaida had said, though she wondered why it was necessary. In the beginning she had left out unimportant bits, and Mesaana knew every time, demanded every word, every gesture and facial expression. Plainly she eavesdropped on those meetings. Alviarin had tried to work out the logic of it and failed. Some things did work to logic, though.

She had met others of the Chosen, whom fools called the Forsaken. Lanfear had come within the Tower, and Graendal, imperious in their strength and knowledge, making it clear without words that alviarin was far beneath them, a scullery maid to run errands and wriggle with pleasure if she received a kind word.

Like I said, if Wetlandernw says it's so, just accept. My mistake in this case.


Else has been in the Tower for more than a couple of weeks. Even a non-sparker's potential would be able to be sensed, and as was quoted above, Siuan indicated that she could channel, but didn't care to pay attention or learn.
Rob Munnelly
163. RobMRobM
I bow before the greatness that is Wet.
Tony Zbaraschuk
164. tonyz
J.Dauro @103: Six is the traditional number to hold a shield, not to make one. (Why six? Because a top-strength guy can break out of a shield held by four or five -- this particular Tower tradition has reasons behind it, and they're based on worst-case reasoning, not average-case.)

And, yes, the Tower may not have done a lot of these things very often, but it has done them recently, and there are sisters with living experience of hunting down men who can channel and dealing with them. So there's reason to expect that they should be pretty good at making plans to do this sort of thing.
165. douglasm
It is definitely possible to channel while hiding your ability to do so. Mesaana does it when she shows Alviarin how to Travel, and Leane does it when she turns half a harbor chain to cuendillar.
Alice Arneson
166. Wetlandernw
J. Dauro @ 161 and Freelancer @ 162 - My fervent thanks to you! I read the questions at 158 & 159 and promptly thought "Oh, no, now I'm going to have to remember where all I was scrounging last night and find that again...!" I know I read it, but that was late last night and I was all over the web and into the books too. Thank you for saving me! :)

A note on Mesaana, her dresses and Illusions... (Please note, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but having spent the time and effort creating the following, I'm gonna post it. It was way too much fun, and now you can all get a chuckle at my OCD tendencies...)

Certainly she could have created an illusion of silk over a real dress of wool or some other servant's garb. The reason it was considered so significant at first, was that her Illusion appearance wavered when Alviarin was kissing her hem - it couldn't quite hold when the dress was being moved that much, and Alviarin notices the color & embroidery of the silk that had been hidden by the illusion. The clincher comes later (CoT chapter 21): when Alviarin & Mesaana are interrupted by Shaidar Haran, the silver-and-shadows Illusion is completely blown away, and Mesaana is revealed as
...a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green. A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years. She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters, though no Chosen she had met showed any sign of agelessness, but she could not match that face to any name.
(Alviarin's POV) We have proved before that just because a character believes something doesn't necessarily make it true, but I personally think we can take Alviarin's word that Mesaana is disguised as a sister. According to the strength chart painstakinly put together by fans even more obsessed than I, no one who has been in the Tower for several hundred years has come anywhere close to her level of strength except Nynaeve, with Elayne & Egwene a couple of levels below that. We know that part of Mesaana's Illusion is disguising her ability completely; to be effectively disguised as one of the sisters would require a display of some level of power but nothing like her natural level.

Hah! I almost thought I'd disproved myself for a minute there, but the 13D folks came to the rescue. :) For a minute I thought maybe Mesaana really wasn't all that strong, and she hid her ability with Alviarin so that she couldn't be matched up to anyone in the WT. But if they are correct, I'm saved. If not... shoot me down. It was still fun, though. But now I REALLY have to go get some work done.
April Vrugtman
167. dwndrgn

Caught your RHPS reference and Leigh's Clue references - both old movies but I'm still young!! At least, that's what I keep telling myself.
Jason Deshaies
168. darxbane
I agree that MP references at a fair are easy, but you have to admit modifying the quotes to fit with Randland does freshen them up a bit. That being said, I'll go more obscure for you:

Executioner: "Hanging?"
Mangin: "No, boiled in oil"
Executioner: ?
Mangin: "Just kidding! Of course hanging!"
Maiane Bakroeva
169. Isilel
Seriously now, Else had been in the Tower for more than half a year, maybe closer to a full year, even. They wouldn't have kept her that long if she didn't even manage to touch the Source. Morgase thought that she herself would have been sent away _in a matter of weeks_ if not for political considerations.
Also, no channeler is too weak to be sensed - see Morgase again and she is the weakest possible.

Speaking about Elayne - sure enough there are lots of RL examples. Emperor Charles V ruled over an empire where the sun never set, which stretched from Slovakia in the east to Latin America in the west and included multitude of nations who all spoke different languages. He himself only spoke German, BTW.

Compared to that, Elayne's task is a snap and she also can Travel.

I don't get the notion that other people Rand installed to rule the nations could do better - they all needed Rand's intervention and backing to _stay_ in power. Darlin couldn't deal with rebellions in Tear, Dobraine couldn't deal with those in Cahirien, Berelein needed Rhuarc's constant hand-holding besides.

Elayne is the only one who could keep the power independently once Rand was gone.

BTW, while it was nice of Rand to kill Rahvin, with Nynaeve's help, he did drop a thorny problem of the Black Tower in her lap, too.

Moreover the idea of combining Andor and Cahirien isn't a new one - IIRC that's what Tigraine's marriage to Taringail was about in the first place and likely would have happened by now if her first child had been a daughter rather than a son.
And it is even more feasible now that Cahirien is completely exhausted, de-peopled and beaten down. Who cares where the capital is going to be when Tarmon Gaidon and famine is looming? It is quite possible that one or both capitals are going to be destroyed anyway.

It is funny that folks have no problems with Perrin ressurecting Mantheren, which was bigger, IIRC, or Tuon (with Mat naturally) retaining control of the territory she seized _and_ re-conquering Seanchan Empire ;).
Tess Laird
170. thewindrose
Since we were talking about Loial earlier, I just wanted to mention that I am looking forward to the time the Rand Land Ogiers meet the Seanchan Ogiers. I mean talk about a culture clash:
(Dragoncon 05 )

Q31: Do Seanchan Ogier have the Longing?

RJ: The longing is an effect of being separated from the stedding for a long time during the Breaking. At the parts that later became the Seanchan empire, there were many more stedding. So they were not separated from the stedding for so long.

Q32: Will there ever be a confrontation between the Seanchan Ogier and the other Ogier?

RJ: They will meet.

Notice RJ refrains from using the word confrontation from the question. Also, from this it sounds like Loial bested his Mom at the Stump and they are staying here.

Oh, and BEEFCAKE:)
Peter Nein
171. gimpols1908
OK, this is super off topic - but i am trying to figure out what to make my kid for Halloween. Last year I was able to get a good idea from tor and I made him a mad scientist from the Schrodinger's Cat pet lab (off of last year's comic here on TOR) - turned out super awesome btw. See the profile pic.

How can my 2 year old be cool this year?

I could do an Ashaman but nobody would get it around here... - stupid suburbs -
Rob Munnelly
172. RobMRobM
@171 - Do an Aiel cadinsor - or change gears entirely and do Alcatraz with full oculator outfit from that series from Brandon Sanderson. Doubt anyone will recognize either (but you can educate them.) Rob
Kristina Blake
173. kab1
You guys are too funny. Never seen RHPS so didn't get those references, but the MP ones were hilarious!!

I'd have to say that our fearless leader Leigh may have really started it all with her "clue" references (yay!) which may have led Blind to think of Tim Curry as a butler, and then it was all craziness from there.

I'd have to agree that Rand would benefit from a bulter/assistant. Where's Narishma? What happened to him?

As far as liking Logain- he's one of my favorites! (possibly because to me he's a great interesting character and not (yet) hooked up with any female character and is therefore available, you know, if he was, um, real.) I'm excited to see where his story goes. As far as him proclaiming to be a false dragon, I do think that was because the pattern was throwing up false dragon. See Moraine quote above (too lazy to look for comment #). How common are all of the prophecies about Randland? Does the average person know about him needing to be born on Dragonmount? Would Logain necessarily have known this? (look at me, I'm making excuses for him already!)
Rob Munnelly
174. RobMRobM
Narishma is bonded to Merise and still with Rand, so he could do the job if Merise let him (maybe not).

Logain is a noble so he should have known of the prophecies - sorry man. Then again, you could say "I'm here for an argument" and I'd respond "No you're not." R
James Jones
175. jamesedjones
174 RobMRobM
Then again, you could say "I'm here for an argument" and I'd respond "No you're not."
Works for me. Since I'm at work, you'll have to give me a few hours to get home and look it up. But I'm sure there was a part from one of the books where one of our main characters (maybe Rand) observes how rare it is to find a noble who actually studied the prophecies. I was reminded of it when I read Mat's observation about how few nobles actually understand the Old Tongue. So I'm almost positive it was before the 4th book. Anyone else recall the passage?
Roger Powell
176. forkroot
You could make him a "Steel Inquisitor" from the Mistborn series. Get a mask and some fake plastic spikes - cut the spikes and make them appear to go into the eyes. Complete with a black hooded cape.
Rob Munnelly
177. RobMRobM
jej - you may be right, I may be crazy....

Back to Paul Simon where it all began a few posts ago.
Kristina Blake
178. kab1
I posted this over on #26, but thought some here might find it useful for finding the most recent post:

The (quickest) way that I get to the posts that aren't showing in the index (the most recent ones are almost always missing) is just by looking at the "latest comments" column on the left side of the homepage. Since we comment so often there's almost always a comment on the most/more recent posts. This will link to the comment and then I just scroll up from there to see the post. This works great as long as Tor isn't having a free giveaway that involves commenting!

edit: "latest comments"
Kristina Blake
179. kab1
jej- I thought I recalled something about that as well, which is why I asked. I have no hope of finding the passage (audiobooks). Wetlandernw? We need you! Stop doing actual work (the rest of us have!)

By the way, I notice that many of you often find RJ quotes to support one thing or another. Do you guys find these by scrolling through old interviews on multiple wot sites, or is there a place where all of them are centrally localized?
180. Freelancer

Better than being a one-trick pony.

Hi Mare!
Jeff Weston
181. JWezy
177@RobMRobM - "You May Be Right" - sorry, that's not Paul Simon, words and music by Billy Joel.

Actually, I am most familiar with the cover by Southside Johnny that was used as the theme music for Dave's World, a TV show loosely based on Dave Barry's humor.
182. Freelancer

RE: Logain. So, you're just a sucker for broad shoulders. Or you have a fly infestation problem.


I was letting that one pass, I'm sure he was thinking of Still Crazy After all these Years.
Kristina Blake
183. kab1
yeah, it's the shoulders :)! But ironically, my students would probably say that I do have a fly problem, as I teach a genetics fruit fly lab which requires counting thousands of flies (trust me, they don't like it!)
Rob Munnelly
184. RobMRobM
Jwezy - you are correct, of course. I must have been in a New York State of Mind. I'll go back to being the boy in the bubble new. R
Adam Loops
186. Cecero
Robert Jordan Database:
Sam Mickel
187. Samadai
I'm in cause "this is the Time" for "a Matter of Trust" and "Keeping the Faith" for 'the Longest Time"
James Jones
188. jamesedjones
177 RobMRobM

I'm pretty sure the world is full of crazy people who are right. In this case, I'm off by a bit. It was Thom to Rand in Chapter 26 of tGH, Discord.
Not many know that about the Dragon Reborn fighting the Last Battle, or if they do, they think he'll fight alongside the Dark One. Not many read the Prophecies to find out.
So no mention of nobles there, but I still feel that it's a bit of a stretch to assume that all nobles remember the prophecies, even if they were taught what's in them. Just look at Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader. :)
Joseph Blaidd
189. SteelBlaidd
Now I Want My MTV.

The Flying Circus is celebrating its 40th Tonight
A very silly business
190. Freelancer

Ouch, he brought the Foxworthy Hammer of Boy do I Feel Dumb!

I'd sooner go on Jeopardy than that show. Better to let the audience believe two other adults outsmarted me, than a roomful of 10 year olds.
Lannis .
191. Lannis
J.Dauro @ 103: You quoted Shakespeare, you're my new friend! :D

As for everyone else... well... I'm having tSR part 10 flashbacks... ;)

Um... that said... I wonder if Leigh stuck around to see the snatches of real conversation in between all the flighty bits?

EDIT: Don't get all crazy again, guys... we've already had the African swallow jokes rehashed...

(But we have yet to see any dead parrots...!)
Michael Ikeda
192. mikeda

Although the Austro-Hungarian dual monarchy actually was very successful in winning the loyalty of the Hungarians to the monarchy (the Austrians were already loyal).

(There was still the problem that a large portion of the population was neither Austrian nor Hungarianl, but the problem might have been solvable if not for WW1.)
193. Tektonica
What's up with the chapter listings on the LOC Reread page? Mine only goes to Chpt. 26.....I had to find my way here through the blog listings for October.
Please help!
Alice Arneson
194. Wetlandernw
Tektonica, you just have to find another of the 6 or 7 ways in when it doesn't show up on the reread page.

1) Look for it in "latest posts."
2) Look for someone commenting on it in "latest comments." (kab1 - that's usually my first source! As you say, unless there's a giveaway going on, we talk more than anyone else here.)
3) Go to the home page, go down to the list of bloggers, and click on Leigh Butler to find the latest.
4) Go to the blog archives for the current month (as you've already discovered).

Ummm... can't think of 5, 6 or 7, but I'm sure they must be there somewhere. ;) Good luck!
Kristina Blake
195. kab1
@186 cool. thanks. I knew there must be something like that out there already!
196. Freelancer

Because they're bleedin' demised.
They've passed on.
They're bereft of life.
They're pushing up daisies.
They're off the twig.
They've shuffled off their mortal coil.
They've joined the choir invisible.

Or, they're pining for the fjords, and haven't much to say.

And now for something entirely different...

Rob Munnelly
197. RobMRobM
@191. Is that all it takes? Then just lend me your ears because the quality of mercy is not strained for poor Yorick. R
Alice Arneson
198. Wetlandernw
kab1 @ 179 - Re: your question about finding quotes... I really wish someone had a complete listing of all the quotations from RJ, but as far as I know, no one has done that. Here's my scenario...

I have a few favorite sites where I go for reference info. Mostly I only go looking for direct quotes if I'm pretty sure I've read it somewhere; otherwise I just go looking for info and sometimes I get lucky enough to find a quote. My favorite quote source is RJ's blog, in which he mostly answered questions he drew from emails and the dragonmount user group. In addition, the WoTFAQ uses a lot of quotes, some from written sources, some verbal. I always feel I have to salt the quotations from book signings or conventions, because the accuracy of the quote depends on the memory of the person asking the question, but they (Leigh & co.) were pretty careful in what they quoted. Another awesome source of info is the WoT Encyclopaedia, which doesn't have as much speculation and theory, but has great things like a complete list of characters, organizations, history, geography, summaries of each book (chapter by chapter) and lots of other goodies. Dragonmount, Theoryland, and the 13th Depository all have a good collection of info, with quotes at times. Wotmania used to have a pretty good FAQ which included a list of questions RJ answered for Tor every week, but wotmania is no more, and I don't know that the FAQ has been moved to another site. It's a pity, but there it is. (Seems like Tor ought to have the questions in an archive somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.) Wiki also has some good info at times, but I don't recall it as a good source of quotes.

If you're looking for a way to find text in the books ("I just know that was in there somewhere, but I don't even know which book!!") I find IdealSeek a good place to start if I'm pretty sure I know part of the text, or I know a particular scene involved a certain character. (I used it this morning to find the section where Alviarin sees Mesaana's Illusion shattered by the arrival of Shaidar Haran.) Sometimes you can use googlebooks to find specific text, but it depends on the book you want to look in, and you have to know which book, so it makes a good companion to IdealSeek. Another useful tool has been the WoT Chronology, the product of another seriously wot-obsessed individual. It's a pretty amazing timeline for the whole series.

That's a starting point, anyway. Actually, what I did (because of the way my memory works) was to read all the way through the WoTFAQ and RJ's blog. Over the course of a couple of months, I read most of those two several times more while looking for specific info. Now if I remember something very clearly, I can be reasonably sure it came from one of those two; if not, it probably came from wotmania or Dragonmount; failing them, I check 13th Depository. I think 13D probably has more info than just about anyone else at this point, but I'm just not as familiar with it because I find the web site somewhat tedious to get around. (Like, some WoT-obsessed web guru was really having fun setting it up, so it's cool, but until you get very familiar with it you can't find anything.)

There you go - information overload! Have fun playing this weekend... :>
John Massey
199. subwoofer
Le sigh... I see we are back to this...

Um for all those who are interested until Tor mgmt updates and keeps current the WoT index- hint, hint click on any of us grey names. We have profiles etc. and most of us, Free, RobM, Wet, JEJ, Lannis, me etc. comment on each post. At the bottom of each of our profiles are comments. Click on the see all and there you go. Access to any of the posts that we have commented on. Be warned, if you are like Free and have done frequent comments on each post, you will have to wade through that. But that is how I work sideways around the system.

Shakespeare-Had he of been a dog who had howled thus, they'd of hanged him. Just sayin'.

For me, I dredge my memory, but as what I had for breakfast seems foggy, I go by Wet. It's a safe bet. My wife constantly reminds me of what I had forgotten too, there is a link there.

Mat v Perrin. I still feel left out at the Ta'veren link. Mat couldn't even say "go" when he wanted to run for cover- he was pulled and tied to Rand. Perrin seems to come and go at will, even when he feels Rand pulling him and with the knowledge that Rand's survival banks on him.

Perrin is much more confrontational about things too. Mat's way sets AS on edge to the point where they want to beat him. Perrin speaks out sideways, and gets lectured for it. It seems disproportionate but then again, Mat's the bad boy, Perrin is the seemingly responsible one.

Linda Taglieri
201. Linda
@198 Wetlandernw: Perhaps you aren't aware, but most of the articles that comprised the Wotmania FAQ are now at the Thirteenth Depository - or more correctly, are being posted there. I've republished about half of them now, I would say. Perhaps more.

Both Strength in Saidar articles - the wotmania one and the current one at the 13th depository - are/were my own.

RJ's TOR Questions of the Week are certainly at the 13th depository and this time they're indexed. It is the indexing and the read-through/recap posts that take up most of my time.

Terez at Theoryland has a wonderful and complete compendium of quotes from RJ here.
Tess Laird
202. thewindrose
Isilel @169-
Compared to that, Elayne's task is a snap and she also can Travel.

Don't forget she likes to gate to the middle of nowhere and take 2-3 weeks to get to her destination:) Lots of royal parades to be had!

Also, have you checked out the Thirteenth Depository? They do have a prediction thread for tGS and beyond. I have seen some of the posters from here - there.

Wetlander, at the end of the RJ section on Thirteenth's site they do have the TOR questions of the week. They were able to get all of Wotmania's collection. It is listed as one long contiuous thread so it does take a bit if time to 'relearn' where everything is.

Edit - I see the lovely Linda has answered part of Wetlanders question. She would know, as she is one of the top dogs at the site:) BTW, Linda - I love you site, it has an almost overwhelming amount of info!
William Fettes
203. Wolfmage
Isilel @ 169

"Compared to that, Elayne's task is a snap and she also can Travel."

I agree that the distance thing isn't prohibitive, but it's an open question whether it is desirable amongst a sea of other candidates.

"I don't get the notion that other people Rand installed to rule the nations could do better - they all needed Rand's intervention and backing to _stay_ in power. Darlin couldn't deal with rebellions in Tear, Dobraine couldn't deal with those in Cahirien, Berelein needed Rhuarc's constant hand-holding besides."

So? Elayne depended upon Rand, Bashere, the Aiel and Dyelin. Without them keeping the peace and forestalling rival claimants, Trakand's claim would be in tatters.

"Elayne is the only one who could keep the power independently once Rand was gone."

Says who? Elayne has a good amount of training for leadership, but she is surely most qualified in areas pertaining to Andor's national interest - such as Andorian House politics and Andor's commodity-based command economy (eg. steel and gold). She would have a good knowledge of other lands' laws and customs also, at least at a textbook level, but there's nothing to suggest she knows Cairhein at the level of detail you would expect of a competent, older House ruler who actually lives there.

Plus, Elayne is only really sophisticated at the great game by Andorian standards - which means she is probably a B minus by the standards of Tear and Cairhein. I like Elayne greatly, but I think you are exaggerating her political and administrative skills as sui generis.

"BTW, while it was nice of Rand to kill Rahvin, with Nynaeve's help, he did drop a thorny problem of the Black Tower in her lap, too."

That's not relevant to determining how much of Elayne's success gaining Andor in truth was her own doing. Your post tries to distinguish Elayne from other rulers by suggesting she gained the throne through single-handed skill whilst they were dependent stewards at best. But Rand's declaration of his intention to give the Sun Throne to Elayne was an intervening act which prevented other claims succeeding there, (so you can hardly blame them for not getting their shit together), and Andor would have fallen apart without Rand's ongoing intervention. That intervention granted Elayne the luxury of ignoring rival Houses in Andor to go after the Bowl for several books until such time as she was ready. But for Rand, she would have no throne.

"Moreover the idea of combining Andor and Cahirien isn't a new one - IIRC that's what Tigraine's marriage to Taringail was about in the first place and likely would have happened by now if her first child had been a daughter rather than a son."

That's not quite right. Taringail's original plan was to have his daughter installed as the Queen of Andor and his son as the King of Cairhien - not for both lands to be ruled by one ruler. He subsequently plotted to become ruler of Andor himself by killing Morgase, but this was probably because his first design was already frustrated by Tigraine's disappearance and the whole Aiel war. No doubt his grief also exacerbated his megalomania.

"And it is even more feasible now that Cahirien is completely exhausted, de-peopled and beaten down."

Political feasibility isn't really the question. Obviously Rand has the capacity to force her claim whatever its merit. She has a legitimate and politically acceptable claim, as does Gawyn - but no better than other local candidates.

"Who cares where the capital is going to be when Tarmon Gaidon and famine is looming? It is quite possible that one or both capitals are going to be destroyed anyway."

Obviously some people think it's above Elayne's pay grade. Also, some might think that Cahirien deserves its own ruler who can rule impartially in the national interest of Cahirien, in a manner divorced from Andorian concerns. In all sorts of matters regarding trade and territorial disputes, it is easy to see potential conflicts of interest that could have a wide impact on merchants, commoners and nobles alike. This is especially problematic considering Elayne cannot guarantee her House's leadership over both nations indefinitely. Whatever consolidations and economies of scale she may introduce as a joint-ruler would be in doubt over the longer-term, which would undermine public confidence in the arrangement.

"It is funny that folks have no problems with Perrin ressurecting Mantheren, which was bigger, IIRC, or Tuon (with Mat naturally) retaining control of the territory she seized _and_ re-conquering Seanchan Empire ;)."

Obviously that's about the rule of cool.
Barry T
204. blindillusion

" was pulled and tied to Rand. Perrin seems to come and go at will, even when he feels Rand pulling him and with the knowledge that Rand's survival banks on him."

Perhaps being a Wolfbrother in some ways counteracts the whole Ta'veren 3 = 1 mumbo-jumbo going on with the Wonder Boys.

Mat has no such protection.

And let's look at it this way...Perrin needs no outside source to do some pretty useful things. He can enter the World of Dreams (Wolfdream). And his dreams are protected.

--I say no outside source because even though the ability to channel is an in-born ability, channeling taps the One Power/True Power. After all, if there was no One Power, the ability to channel wouldn't mean jack. But Perrin would still be friends with Hopper.--
Linda Taglieri
205. Linda
@202 thewindrose: Thank you!

Hopefully the indexes make things much easier to find and less overwhelming. :)
Kristina Blake
206. kab1
@wet and windrose- thanks so much!!! wonderful resources, you guys are da BOMB (90's flashback, aaaahh). I especially like the Ideal Seek idea to find passages of text, should be useful in the future when trying to prove a point.

@windrose- Did you apply to be a Storm leader? I think I remember you saying you were going to. I assume you didn't get selected as I only saw males picked for MSP and I think you're a saidar channeler (like me).

@Linda- 13th depository is way cool. Actually the amount of info and analysis there is unreal. I discovered it from this reread by RobMRobM's (pretty sure it was him) suggestion. However, I promised myself that I would not look at 13D again until I have turned in my dissertation, as I once spent an entire afternoon simply getting lost in the maps. So, till the dissertation is turned in, I am only following this reread and listening to the podcasts. However, I plan on (finally) turning it in later tonight (once I get off this reread of course), so I could be on 13D as early as tomorrow!!! yay! I'm especially interested in the tGS predictions that Windrose mentioned. Gotta check those out before the book comes out and add some of my own!
Barry T
207. blindillusion
Here's a loony theory: It's off topic, but I just thought of it, even if millions of people have had it before me.

I read in one of the comments, I think in this post, that Rand's eye problems are because of the saa inside Moridin's eyes. Rand's not seeing the saa, but because Moridin has them they're effecting Rand's vision...that kinda thing.

Well, what if Rand is now channeling the True Power and has been since the end of aCoS? The whole crossing of the streams has done some serious damage to our #1 Good Guy and #1 Bad Guy after all. What if this is another side effect? Rand channels the TP because Moirdin does.

Could be the reason our boy is so sick from his channeling. Tapping that Power, without the DO's permission, couldn't be good. It's bad enough when you do have his permission because there's the whole 'one has to hope for immortality from the DO or said one dies from using it' thing. And the DO cannot stop Rand from using the TP because to do so would mean keeping Moridin from using it...gots to be frustrating for our resident Darkness.

Ooo Ooo and Rand really isn't crazy because he's stopped channeling the OP. He just thinks he's crazy. And Lews Therin is just Rand talking to himself. =>

Yeah, I know. Poorly worded. No evidence from the canon. And it's kinda rambling, but I hope you guys get the gist.

AND HEY, just for fun, I'll trash this theory. You know...just for shits and giggles and all that jazz.

Why can't this be possible? Well, you cannot channel the TP without the DO's permission. Rand tends to hang around with other male channelers and chances are one of them would have noticed by now that Rand isn't channeling saidin. Rand probably wouldn't of been able to clean saidin without channeling it outside Shadar Logoth. And when he travels the Pattern doesn't scream.

But perhaps there's something here?
Alice Arneson
208. Wetlandernw
Linda, I was indeed not aware that 13D was picking up the Wotmania stuff, particularly since Wotmania just redirected to Dragonmount the last time I checked. I'm glad to hear it. I knew about the strength-table one, though I only found it again because someone here linked directly to it and I bookmarked that particular article. One of these days I'll find time to spend a while scrounging through the site and figure it out. Maybe someday I'll even have time to get familiar with Theoryland, but the name always gives me the idea that perhaps I'll find more actual information at the other sites, and I don't really have the fortitude for an extended review of theories, looney or not. *sigh* Sometimes I wish I could get medically-dictated bed rest just so I'd have an excuse to spend all day doing this sort of thing... But then I'd have a much harder time doing things with my kids, so I guess I'll take what I've got. :)

P.S. And it's late, and I need to get to bed, and I will NOT touch that link to the list of quotes tonight. No, no, no!! I WILL NOT...........

Tess Laird
209. thewindrose
As Linda noted, there is an index and also a search function. I do agree with kab1, it is hard not to spend a lot of time there if you are a fan. Some times I need a qoute to back up an idea, and then stay for afternoon tea followed by a late dinner and dessert:) (I will be joining.)

kab1, I did want to enter, however I am already taking some time off around the 27th(guess why) and there is a Halloween party the night Sanderson is in town. I think I will try to stop by though.(I will have to admit that I did get some flack from the hubby about spending some time with him, the nerve!)(Obviously he is not from Far Madding.)
Linda Taglieri
210. Linda
@208 wetlandernw: It's not really a matter of picking up Wotmania's stuff, about 90% of what I'm posting is my own stuff. Stuff I wrote for wotmania, which ran into hundred of pages. Plus new work written especially for the blog.

Dominic, of course, posts his own work - writing and maps. And very very good it is too.

There are also some very nice essays that some other wotmaniacs gave me permission to post.

@kab1: Thanks! I'm glad you like the blog!
Thomas Keith
211. insectoid
blindillusion @207: I love your loony theory (however implausible)! Keep 'em coming!

(still haven't caught up with comments...)
John Massey
212. subwoofer
Yay Linda! I feel I should be doing a Wayne and Garth, "we're not worthy" woof about now. Been meaning to sign in on 13D but Tor sucks up any free time I have. I visited 13D and 4 hours disappeared. Neat AS trick. Between home renos, restoring my truck, wife time, and now hunting season, not to mention paying bills, time is at a premium. Thank you for being here though:) It is like the mountain came to Mohammad.

Maiane Bakroeva
213. Isilel
@203: Wolfmage
So? Elayne depended upon Rand, Bashere, the Aiel and Dyelin. Without them keeping the peace and forestalling rival claimants, Trakand's claim would be in tatters.

Yes, they kept the throne vacant while she was saving them from overheating. Something which concerned Rand deeply, too, but which he concluded he could do nothing about (I am re-reading TFoH). Also, poor Nyn gets forgotten again, eh?

Anyway, the difference is that once Elayne appeared, she didn't need help of any of the above, except for Dyelin, who is Andoran and thus perfectly within her rights to support whomever she wishes, to solidify her claim.

All of the other rulers nominated by Rand needed him and his forces not just to _put_ them in position, but to _keep them there_.

That's a rather significant difference in Elayne's favor, wouldn't you say?

And rule of cool? I know that tons of people adore Mat (an ultimate wish-fulfillment character that he is ;) ), but "Failed" Perrin? I mean, I don't like Elayne all that much myself, but between the 2 of them... And likes or dislikes aside, she is better equipped to rule over significant territory for a significant length of time. After all, ta'veren isn't a lifelong condition.

Having several countries under a single rule worked well enough for stretches of time, sometimes spanning several centuries IRL, where cultural differences were much bigger - language, etc.

And again, you ignore the fact that Cahirien is too devastated to stand on it's own. It has been bled and plundered white and before that Galldrian was wasting irreplacable reserves accumulated by his predessors on keeping it fed and quiet. There is nothing left to build on unless an outside power helps every step of the way. And why would they, when everybody will be very hard up soon? Unless it all becomes a single country, that is.
paul Hend
214. tugthis

Yes, Elayne was instrumental in saving the world from overheating.... but it is exactly this type of "adventuere" that makes her unsuited to be Queen of the East. . . I do not think that she can be both AS and queen successfully. Too much divided loyalty. . . and too much work.

Let's not kid ourselves either about the elephant in the room-- Rand. If the most powerful person in the world makes it known consciously or unconsciously that he'd like to see his girlfriend rule. . . she probably will. . . at least initially. Elayne would be delusional to think she is getting Andor. . . . and Cairhearn on her merits.
Lannis .
215. Lannis
RobM @ 197... I heart Hamlet! :D

To continue the list by Wetlander and Sub, re: how to find new posts...

I've bookmarked the search results for "Wheel of Time reread" and I can tell when the number of results increases (it's currently 102) that there's been a new post... then I can: a) scroll down to the bottom of the results list to find the new post, or b) check the Latest Posts sidebar or Latest Comments sidebar to find Leigh's newest post.

There really is six or seven different ways to find it! Good luck, folks! :)

EDIT: WTF? We used to be able to use special characters... I want my heart! :(
James Jones
216. jamesedjones
213 Isilel
And rule of cool? I know that tons of people adore Mat (an ultimate wish-fulfillment character that he is ;) ), but "Failed" Perrin?
'Rule o' Cool' probably applies to the idea of Manetheren, rather than Perrin himself.

...but he is pretty cool. Pining after Faile led to the awesome questioning of the Shaido scene, after all.
Sean Arthur
217. wsean
@214 Elayne is the heir to the throne of Andor, and has been trained for it from birth. It's not unreasonable to think she's getting that throne on her merits. Cairhien, on the other hand...

@215 There's also the RSS feed. :)
218. Freelancer

I think you missed Isilel's pun. And unlike the parrot skit, this one really is a pun. He isn't saying that Perrin fails in any way, but being married to that particular Seldaean lass, he is now "Failed", which in many people's opinions makes him less cool. Personally, I believe Perrin is more grounded than the largest anvil in any forge. I have two characters in mind for the Sam Gamgee of this epic, and Perrin is one of them. (The other is much larger than Perrin)
219. Tektonica
RobMRobM @49 and 55

I also remember the Rocky Horror......dressing up for the midnight shows in olde wilde times from days of yore.

As for Tam: Would love to see him return in a meaningful way and also romp with the grandkids later. BTW, does Min ever have kids? I know she can't see her own future, but she and Rand spend alot of time together.....I'm just saying.....accidents happen.
Rob Munnelly
220. RobMRobM
Linda from ThirteenthDep - welcome to the group and, yes, I have recommended your site to this gang (including kab) several times. All of the pieces are thoughtful and many are brilliant. I'm a fan. I also appreciate the spoiler protection on the TGS essays since I have not yet read the Prologue (but have read/listened to c. 1 and 2).

Lsana - I can do Shakespeare almost all day; I've read most of the plays and most of the sonnets. I'm actually not a big fan of Hamlet or Macbeth - I'm more on the King Lear/Merchant of Venice side of the house but some of the comedies (especially Twelve Night). We can crank up a quote fest at any time.

Wet - way to go on the resources. Also good to check Brandon Sanderson's site for links to current news.



Edit: new post is up!
lin mei
221. twicemarked
I think one thing about the future prospect of Cahirien people have not mentioned is the Cahirien farmers.

It is mentioned in the books that the country Cahirien gets so poor and their people so active in the Great Game in the past twenty years, because many farmers near the Aiel waste can no longer farm there due to the first Aiel War.

Before, since Aiels allow Cahirien merchants access across the waste, they also allow farming near Aiel land. After the war, Aiel despites the "tree killers", all the good farm land near the dragonwall are abandoned. All the farmers run to the foregate, and in essence turns it into a refuge camp and rely on handouts.

Elayne taking the Sun Throne will allow farming to resume in those areas, even if we assume Aviendha does not become the Roof Mistress of the Waste. Good relationship with the Aiel helps Elayne's claim, unless you believe Rand's Aiels will die out so let us forget them.
222. Tektonica
Thank you Wetlandernw and Linda! And thanks to RobM for recommending
the 13th D awhile ago....great site....lots of info. Wet, you put up a few sites I'd never heard of! Thank you thank you.

As for Andor/Carhirien being rulled together and doubts about Elayne's claim to rule Carhirien.....if she' "married" to Rand, isn't he a direct descendant of Tarengail? He would have a claim, no?
William Fettes
223. Wolfmage
Isilel @ 213

"Yes, they kept the throne vacant while she was saving them from overheating. Something which concerned Rand deeply, too, but which he concluded he could do nothing about (I am re-reading TFoH)."

Nothing I've said depends on taking a cheap shot at Elayne by belittling the importance of the Bowl. I'm simply saying that the starting conditions of Elayne's ability to both take and hold the throne in Andor cannot be removed from all the intervening acts which give her all the cards necessary to do so. I'm looking at the big picture, whereas you've artificially drawn a line in the sand by only evaluating the situation from when she is securely seconded in Caemlyn. The point is, this situation is only possible because Rand, with the support of the Aiel and Saldaean military, locked the nation and capital down. This situation provided the deadlock for prominent House leaders, like Luan and Pelivar, to back Dyelin, who in turn was content to wait for Elayne. Moreover, when Rand was kidnapped, Dyelin secures Elayne's reign further - hanging two leaders who attempt to proclaim for her and flogging twenty others. She also imprisons Lady Elenia and Lady Naean for making their own independent claims. All of this ensures the situation is adequately controlled and other claimants never get a serious opportunity to form a credible coalition under the Succession rules.

The situation is never like this in Cairhein precisely because Rand only ever grants stewardship over the Sun Throne, whilst holding out that Elayne would be Queen there eventually. This ensures that there will always be a leadership vacuum, with all the political manoeuvring of the great game simmering beneath the surface, only to resurface when Rand disappears. Yet you keep inferring all these terrible things about the deficits in Dobraine's leadership based on the expectation that he has been appointed King in truth. Fact is he hasn't, because Rand made it so in support of Elayne...

"Also, poor Nyn gets forgotten again, eh?"

It's irrelevant. I've never disputed she helped Rand kill Rahvin. I simply not moved to talk about it here because we're talking about the state of Andor after Rahvin is gone. I don't see how it would help your argument in relation to Elayne anyway, unless your only point is to gripe about the girls being generally under appreciated rather than making a cogent argument on its merits about Elayne sui generis uber skills. Hmm.

"Anyway, the difference is that once Elayne appeared, she didn't need help of any of the above, except for Dyelin, who is Andoran and thus perfectly within her rights to support whomever she wishes, to solidify her claim."

Nice attempt to hand wave away one of the key intervening acts. The fact is, Elayne does nothing to accrue Dyelin's loyalty in this regard - it's just written that way, by authorial fiat, that Dyelin doesn't want the throne. As above, Dyelin gets a huge deal of the credit for keeping the situation manageable for Elayne before, during and after Elayne is in Caemlyn.

And we're talking about Cairhein here - so you've got to link Elayne's dumb-luck good fortune here in having Dyelin on her side with her ability to dealing with their problems? Exactly how does this work in Cairhein?

"All of the other rulers nominated by Rand needed him and his forces not just to _put_ them in position, but to _keep them there_."

I'm not ignoring this, I'm just pointing out it's arbitrary. If you're going to infer so much from holding power, you need to take into account the starting conditions to make it a fair comparison.

"That's a rather significant difference in Elayne's favor, wouldn't you say?"

Not at all. I see little significant in Elayne's ability to hold Caemlyn with mercenary garrisons and Travelling food into the city, after a good year+ of other powers ensuring she is only facing Arymilla's weak coalition.

"Having several countries under a single rule worked well enough for stretches of time, sometimes spanning several centuries IRL, where cultural differences were much bigger - language, etc."

It has worked out adequately in some cases, not in others. The point is, there's nothing uniquely good about such arrangements or Elayne's claim here compared to a local alternative. That's what you've failed to establish.

"And again, you ignore the fact that Cahirien is too devastated to stand on it's own. It has been bled and plundered white and before that Galldrian was wasting irreplacable reserves accumulated by his predessors on keeping it fed and quiet. There is nothing left to build on unless an outside power helps every step of the way. And why would they, when everybody will be very hard up soon? Unless it all becomes a single country, that is. "

I disagree that it is too devastated to stand on its own. What is your evidence for that?
224. David DeLaney
Hi all! I'm not caught up to the current reread post yet ... but am putting this here because if I put it back on the reread post(s) it actually pertains to, nobody would ever see it again except other new-catching-up-readers. If anyone does have an answer, I'll see it in a few weeks.

Started my own reread a few days ago, and am currently about 40% through The Dragon Reborn. I've also just to-day dug out the remainder of the series from the stacks of hardbacks they were surrounded by; TSR was where I switched to buying in hardback. And I am struck by a question that I don't think I've ever seen asked or discussed previously in the forums / newsgroups I've read...

Namely: Did _Elayne_ make a statement, or ask a question, after her first or second Accepted-ring-traversal that made Sheriam miss a step? And if so ... what was it? I'm fairly sure, that for reasons of symmetry, she _did_ - but we don't get a PoV for Elayne's test for raising to Accepted at all, and I don't recall anyone later on ever returning to it even as a minor side thought.

Using logic, I can reason out that the most probable reason for the lack of PoV is that one or more of her test scenarios would have Revealed something that RJ wanted to keep hidden right then - _quite_ possibly, but not certainly, the bonding structure Rand later fell into, for one. Foreshadowing is one thing, but some things are hard to foreshadow without an actual reveal.

I can also figure out, from the memetic structure of Nynaeve's and Egwene's tests, that one of Elayne's, possibly the first, would involve her home situation with her at the age she is now, but as it would be had the events of the series not happened as they did. And that _almost_ surely has to be a scenario where Gawyn's life was in danger for a third time, and Galad could be saving him but had some more pressing Right Action to take care of, and Elayne got the archway back just before she could have moved to save Gawyn. (I can even reason out that there'd be some new character involved, whose evil or misguided information was what was causing Galad to hare off to Do Good Elsewhere.)

The second one, also by concept analogy, almost has to involve Elayne trying to get crowned for Andor ... as it might have happened with just the events up to that point. (Rahvin had not yet come near Andor, but Morgase had become infuriated with Tar Valon after the SGs' trip with Liandrin to the Seanchan.) So it looks like that one would involve Morgase, Galad, and Gawyn dragging Elayne home from the White Tower, utterly shattering the agreements of Andor, and then something drastic happening to Morgase - perhaps a Forsaken, perhaps Padan Fain stabs her with the dagger (and Mat is already dead because they didn't get the dagger back in time).

And the final one pretty much has to be a glimpse into the Family Life of Rand and his Three Wives (and maybe All The Others Bonded And Sworn To Him). That last might be the reveal RJ didn't want to make yet, or it might be something about losing the hand, or something about HOW Rand survives - or doesn't - the Last Battle. It'd be pretty difficult to do well without giving SOME not-yet-public info away, in fact...

So - as you can see - good candidates for WHAT Elayne's scenarios were can be figured out. But ... is there something compelling from the first or second (or, since Nynaeve's was the first and Egwene's was the second, perhaps Elayne's was after her third?) that Elayne would blurt out after returning that would cause Sheriam to miss a step? If so, it's not showing itself to me, and it's bugging me.

As I said, I realize this is a minor point, and is from three books back to boot. I'll catch up to actually reading here in a few weeks. Surprise me!

Hugh Arai
225. HArai
Wolfmage@223: Strongly agree with you here. It's _Dyelin_ who's shown the best suitability for the throne of Andor. Except for the not so minor issue that she refuses to take it. Elayne gets credit for a lot of things, but securing the stability of Andor should not be one of them.
226. Mat Be'lal

How could you not comment on the Lan bit of awesomeness at the end of the chapter? One of the scenes that I remember so clearly from the first read!!
vo mabulay
227. alreadymad
Wolfmage @223
Cairhien is devastated.When a high ranking noble such as Breanne Taborwin (Dobraine's own cousin or even sister) ends up a refugee in Andor and subsequently gets enmeshed in the PLOD... something must be direly wrong. The Aiel War left Cairhien without its major source of income of trade with Shara. It left outlier regions deserted. Land that should have been for farming. Rand makes note of this himself. Civil war left its military drained, its population underfed, crops unplanted. If Rand hadn't sent Tairen foodstuffs, it would only have been a matter of time before Cairhien collapsed on its own.

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