Wed
Sep 16 2009 11:56am

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Lord of Chaos, Part 18

Hello, and welcome to another fabulous Wednesday, accompanied as always by a fabulous Wheel of Time Re-read!

This one is pretty darn fabulous, actually. I am also incredibly modest.

Ahem! Today’s post covers Chapters 29-30 of Lord of Chaos, in which Neil Armstrong lands on the moon Alexander Fleming discovers penicillin Richard James invents the Slinky something Suitably Stupendous occurs. Yeeeeeah, baby.

Previous entries are here. Please note that all posts contain spoilers for all currently published novels in the Wheel of Time series, up to Knife of Dreams. So if you haven’t read, don’t read.

Edited to add: Good news, everyone! The Prologue to The Gathering Storm, “What the Storm Means”, is available for purchase from Tor.com and multiple other online retailers. The post about it is here. Go see!

As a corollary to that, please refrain from posting spoilers from the Prologue (or Chapter 1) on this post or on the Re-read in general for now; discussion about the Prologue should go in the Tor.com post announcing it. Thanks for being so great about this, guys, I mean it.

And now, dear readers, read on, for your prescribed dose of FABULOUSNESS.

Chapter 29: Fire and Spirit

What Happens
Nynaeve enters the Little Tower, feeling queasy; her weather sense is telling her there is a storm brewing even though the sky is clear. She approaches a White named Brendas and asks for Siuan and Leane, picking Brendas because Siuan trusted her in the Tower, and also because she had never tried to grill Nynaeve about Rand. Brendas tells her they are with some Sitters, and asks if Theodrin has made any progress; Nynaeve answers no, and remembers with humiliation that Theodrin’s latest tactic had been to get her drunk, to the point where she had been singing. Brendas remarks that her studies seem to be suffering; now only Elayne continues to come up with wonderful new discoveries. She says several sisters are thinking of taking over from Theodrin. Nynaeve whispers that she’s sure Theodrin will figure it out any day now, and whirls to leave, bumping into two white-haired new arrivals who turn out to be named Adeleas and Vandene. Sheriam, Morvrin, Beonin and Myrelle come into the common room, and Sheriam prevents Myrelle from going up to Nynaeve, which Nynaeve interprets to mean that if Egwene had been at the meeting with the Wise Ones, she was not to be told because she was in disgrace. Nynaeve thinks it was a mistake to start letting Elayne take all the credit from now on for Moghedien’s teachings, even if she did suggest it herself. She stalks outside, furious, and runs into Thom and Juilin, looking gaunt and careworn after their travels.

Thom Merrilin grinned down at her through his long white mustaches, sharp blue eyes twinkling in his gnarled face. “By the look of you, Nynaeve, I could almost think you were angry, but I know you have such a sweet disposition people ask you to dabble your fingers in their tea.”

Elayne appears and hurls herself at Thom, and he whirls her around, laughing, and Nynaeve sniffs, thinking they have taken this father-daughter thing entirely too far, and besides, she seems to recall Elayne asking if she wanted a bucket of water for her head the night before. Thom reports that Ailron’s forces and the Whitecloaks have virtually abandoned the Eldar, pulling back except along the Tarabon border and on the front with the Prophet; Niall seems to have no interest in Salidar at all.

“Tarabon,” Juilin muttered, studying his cap. “An ill country for anyone who doesn’t know how to take care of herself, or so we heard.”

Elayne divines that Thom is hiding something, and immediately deduces it is something about her mother. He tries to avoid telling her, dismissing it as a crazy rumor, but finally admits that the word is that Morgase is in the Fortress of the Light, and is going to lead an army of Whitecloaks to Andor. Elayne laughs at the notion, saying she could wish it were true even though it runs counter to everything her mother had taught her, if it meant Morgase was alive, but she has accepted that her mother is dead. Thom comforts her awkwardly, and Nynaeve wonders if he feels anything about Morgase’s death, considering they had been lovers. Juilin and Thom are then summoned inside to speak to the Sitters, and Elayne and Nynaeve stand there awkwardly for a moment, until Nyaneve decides that since she won’t be able to get at Siuan or Leane, she might as well try Logain. Elayne tags along, and Nynaeve suddenly notices she is not wearing the bracelet. Elayne assures her she has it in her pouch; she’s avoiding wearing it because Birgitte overheard something Moghedien said the night before, and now the Forsaken is a mass of bruises. Nynaeve’s disapproval is half-hearted, as she has been avoiding wearing the thing herself lately, with her growing disgust over the situation. Elayne apologizes for laughing at Nynaeve the night before, and Nynaeve suddenly decides to be absolutely truthful for once, and answers that she deserved it, and Elayne should have dunked her head until she was dead sober. Elayne answers that “it could happen to anyone”, which makes Nynaeve blush, remembering what she did the time Elayne got drunk.

It was quite the oddest argument Nynaeve could remember, with her insisting she had been a total fool and deserved whatever came of it, while Elayne made excuse after excuse for her. Nynaeve did not understand why it felt so refreshing, taking all the blame on herself that way. She could not recall ever doing that before, not without hedging as far as she was able. She very nearly got angry with Elayne for not agreeing that she had been a childish buffoon.

Finally Elayne tells her to quit it or she will dunk her in a bucket, and Nynaeve lets it go, still feeling euphoric. She entreats Elayne to leave, that night, to go to Ebou Dar if not Caemlyn; they are accomplishing nothing here. Elayne refuses, saying they can do no good to anyone if they’re labeled runaways, and then confesses to Nynaeve that she found out Birgitte told Uno that he was not to help Nynaeve leave Salidar without Birgitte’s say-so first. This news neatly solves the problem of Nynaeve being too happy to channel, and she stalks inside Logain’s house, Elayne following. Inside, Logain greets them mock-courteously and asks if they want wine, and Nynaeve tells him to sit down and shut up. He shrugs and obeys with an insolent smile, and Nynaeve begins delving him with the Power, and notes again that he is perfectly healthy – except for the hole.

It was not really a hole, more a feeling that what seemed continuous was not, that what seemed smooth and straight was really skirting around an absence. She knew that sensation well, from the early days, back when she thought she might really learn something. It still made her skin crawl.

Elayne asks how she can keep track of so many flows at once, but Nynaeve murmurs for her to shush, and takes Logain’s head in her hands. As she continues to examine the hole, she absently ruminates how she wants to talk to Egwene, in the hopes that Egwene will be better at convincing Elayne to leave Salidar than she.

There it was. Something cut. Just an impression, but the same as in Siuan and Leane. So how do I find her? If only she’d pop into our dreams again. I’ll bet I can talk her into joining us. The three of us would do much better with Rand. Together, we could tell him what we learn in Tel’aran’rhiod, keep him from making some wool-headed mistake with the Aes Sedai. She’ll see that. Something about that cut... if it was bridged with Fire and Spirit, so...

It was the slight widening of Logain’s eyes that told her what she had done. Breath froze in her throat. She backed away from him so fast she stumbled over her skirt.

“Nynaeve,” Elayne said, sitting up straight, “what is the mat—?”

A heartbeat, and Nynaeve had all of saidar she could hold redirected into a shield. “Go find Sheriam,” she said hurriedly. “Nobody else but Sheriam. Tell her... ” She drew a deep breath that seemed like her first in hours; her heart was speeding to beat galloping horses. “Tell her I’ve Healed Logain.”

Commentary
Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you end a goddamn chapter. Amen I said Amen!

Nynaeve Healing Logain still stands as one my biggest personal “Holy Crap” moments in all of WOT. As in, I was like, holy crap. I was astonished.

Which seems almost laughable in retrospect, considering the veritable minefield of hints and foreshadowing of the event Jordan littered the landscape with prior, but as I’ve mentioned before, I am blessed with the happy deficiency of hardly ever guessing plot twists before they happen, as long as they’re even remotely well set up. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

So, astonished. And, gleeful. A Made of Awesome Moment if there ever was one.

I remember I was so pleased for Logain, too, which is interesting considering he perpetrated (admittedly off-screen) mass mayhem and carnage before he was captured, and plus was kind of a dick even while he was gentled. And yet I was thrilled on his behalf when he got his, er, mojo back.

But I think this just shows that slow buildups can work, if the payoff is right. We’ve spent five books being told and shown how horrible (and, ultimately, fatal) it is for channelers to lose their ability to channel, and thus are in prime emotional position to appreciate just what a major event this is. Works for me.

(The key, of course, is that you get your payoff. Ahem.)

As a side note, I severely dislike the term “gentling”. It really has an unpleasant similarity to “gelding”, which was intentional, of course, but iiiieee. Even as a non-guy that makes me a little cringe-y.

The only other things worth noting in this chapter are Thom and Juilin’s appearance, which makes a grand total of about three seconds they’ve been on screen (so to speak) in LOC so far, and Nynaeve’s ecstatic fit of blame-taking, which I continue to find hilarious, and also oddly touching. She is just so clueless about herself, I swear.

Oh, and the reappearance of Adeleas and Vandene. And Brendas, who if you recall (and you probably don’t, I have no idea why I remember this, really), was one of the sisters Siuan recruited to help Heal Mat in the Tower, way back in TDR. I think right around here was where I seriously started having trouble keeping track of the Aes Sedai cast; I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one.

Oh, and the mention of Morgase, which contains enough irony to set off metal detectors. Sigh. If only you were right, Elayne. If only.


Chapter 30: To Heal Again

What Happens
Nynaeve feels something pushing against her shield from the inside, and shrieks at Elayne to go; Elayne sprints out. Logain hasn’t moved, and Nynaeve is suddenly aware of how big he is, and wraps him in flows of Air as well as the shield. He smiles at her, and tells her there is no need for her shield; he is not foolish enough to attack a townful of Aes Sedai. She tells him to be quiet, and sits down, berating herself for being so stupid.

“Don’t be afraid,” Logain said. “I won’t turn against them now. They’re succeeding in what I want, whether they know it or not. The Red Ajah is finished. In a year, there won’t be an Aes Sedai will dare admit she’s Red.”

“I said be quiet!” she snapped. “Do you think I’ll believe it’s only Reds you hate?”

“You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble than I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; I don’t know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. He was far away, but I saw a... a glow, and I knew he’d shake the world. Caged as I was, I couldn’t help laughing.”

Nynaeve gags him with Air, which finally angers him, and thinks that the push she had felt against her shield was not anything like a serious attempt to break it, but more like a man “stretching muscles long unused”, and tries not to panic. Logain seems to guess what she’s thinking, and she tells herself she’s not fit to be Aes Sedai after being so witless, berating herself until the door bursts open, admitting Sheriam, Romanda, Lelaine, Myrelle, Morvrin, Delana, and a bunch more, and their stares unnerve Nynaeve so much that she loses anger and saidar, and thus the shield on Logain. Nisao, a Yellow, demands to know what’s all this nonsense about Healing Logain, and Logain pretends he doesn’t know what she’s talking about; Nynaeve begs them to believe her and shield Logain again, and Sheriam shrugs and says they might as well just in case, and Romanda names off six sisters to do so. Myrelle and Sheriam then proceed to bodily haul Nynaeve out of the room into the street, passing an apologetic-looking Elayne; Nynaeve asks what they are going to do to her, and they recite a litany of possible punishments, each worse than the one before it.

Nynaeve’s knees sagged. “It was an accident! I swear! I didn’t mean to!”

Sheriam gave her a hard shake without slowing a step. “Don’t be a fool, child. You may just have done the impossible.”

“You believe me? You believe me! Why didn’t you say something when Nisao and Varilin and—Why didn’t you say something?”

“I said ‘may,’ child.” Sheriam’s voice was depressingly neutral.

Nynaeve can’t figure out if they believe her or not as they hurry her into the Little Tower, and a room filled with most of the Yellows in Salidar, all looking grim. Sheriam says disdainfully, so you claim you Healed Logain, and switches Nynaeve with Air when she does not answer fast enough. She continues that if it was by accident, she supposes Nynaeve can’t prove it by doing it again, and switches her again when Nynaeve stares at her. Myrelle is openly scornful, and then Carlinya and Beonin enter, pushing a sullen Siuan and Leane ahead of them; Beonin is incredulous that they actually tried to refuse to come. Suddenly Nynaeve understands the purpose behind all the rigmarole; to make sure she was angry enough to channel. Absolutely furious, she tugs her braid, twice, just in case anyone missed it the first time. Siuan growls that she has important work to be doing instead of this nonsense.

“Oh, shut up,” Nynaeve broke in testily. One step, and she seized Siuan’s head in both hands as if she intended to break the woman’s neck. She had believed that nonsense, even the barrel! They had manipulated her like a puppet!

Saidar filled her, and she channeled as she had with Logain, blending all of the Five Powers. She knew what she was looking for this time, that almost-not-there-at-all sense of something cut. Spirit and Fire to mend the break, and...

For a moment Siuan only stared, expressionless. Then the glow of saidar enveloped her. Gasps filled the room. Slowly Siuan leaned forward and kissed Nynaeve on either cheek. A tear leaked down her face, then another, and abruptly Siuan was weeping, hugging herself and shaking; the gleaming aura around her faded away.

Sheriam hugs her, teary-eyed, while everyone else in the room stares at Nynaeve in shock. Dagdara asks in a strangled voice what made her think of using Fire; Nynaeve answers she doesn’t know, she’s just always used everything. Several sisters reprimand her for going beyond the prescribed use of Water, Air and Spirit, but then fade off in light of what had just happened. Leane is gazing at her hopefully, and Nynaeve smiles at her, telling the others to watch carefully, and Heals Leane as well. She notes that it feels different with Siuan and Leane than it did with Logain, and worries that perhaps she should have done something differently. Leane embraces saidar with a beatific smile, and then throws her arms around Nynaeve, murmuring thank yous. Nynaeve prepares to receive accolades, but the Yellows instead immediately begin discussing her technique and ways to improve upon it; Myrelle pats her arm and tells her not to worry, they’ll be all praises later. Nynaeve hopes this means she won’t have to scrub pots anymore, but Sheriam squashes that notion quickly, and Nynaeve sighs. Nisao pipes up, saying that she supposes this means they will have to gentle Logain again. The others start to agree, until Carlinya interjects:

“Can we?” Every eye turned to her, but she went on calmly, coolly. “Ethically, can we consider supporting a man who can channel, a man trying to gather other men who can, while at the same time we go on as before, gentling those we find? Practically, what effect will it have on him when he learns? Distressing as it may be, as matters stand, he will see us as separate from the Tower, and more importantly, from Elaida and the Red Ajah. If we gentle even one man, we may lose that distinction, and with it our chance to gain a hold on him before Elaida does.”

The Aes Sedai exchange troubled looks, and several glare balefully at Nynaeve. Sheriam murmurs that she should probably go, and Nynaeve obeys with alacrity. She is met outside by Elayne, who apologizes for giving it away to everyone. Nynaeve tells her it doesn’t matter; they should still get out while they can, opining the rebels are no better than Elaida, with Carlinya’s talk of getting a “hold” on Rand. Elayne, however, says ruefully that it’s too late; word has already spread. A moment later two Yellows (Larissa and Zenare) swoop down on her, followed quickly by Salita Toranes, a Yellow Sitter; they all begin fighting over which of them can have Nynaeve first.

“...angry?” Zenare was saying. “I know fifty ways at the front of my head to make her angry enough to chew rocks.”

“I can think of a hundred,” Larissa said. “I intend to break her block if it’s the last thing I do.”

Magla Daronos shouldered her way into the group, and she had the shoulders for it. She looked as if she worked the sword, or a blacksmith’s hammer. “You will break it, Larissa? Hah! I do have several ways in mind already to draw it out of her.”

Nynaeve just wanted to scream.

Siuan fights the urge to just hold saidar, knowing she might start crying again, as all the Aes Sedai gather around to warmly welcome her back. She hugs Lelaine and Delana, her two closest old friends after Moiraine and Leane, though they had grown apart after she became Amyrlin. She’s filled with joy, and does not begrudge the Aes Sedai their distance earlier, knowing she would have insisted on that same barrier. She marvels that now it will never be necessary to treat stilled women that way again. She catches sight of Bryne heading upstairs, and excuses herself to go after him. He tries to step around her, saying he’s busy, but she plants herself in front of him and tells him she’s been Healed, and can channel again. Bryne only nods, to her amazement, and remarks that maybe now that she can use the Power his shirts will actually get clean. Astonished, she replies that she is Aes Sedai again; does he really expect an Aes Sedai to do his laundry? To demonstrate, she embraces saidar and tries to pick him up with Air – but cannot do it, to her shock. Before, she had been able to lift three times her own weight. Bryne asks dryly if this is supposed to impress him, and tells her he has no intention of letting her out of her oath, Aes Sedai or not. He tells her to let him go, or he’ll “turn [her] upside down and smack [her]”. She lets him go dazedly, and is unable to hold back tears at the shock of her discovery.

Gareth was cupping her face in his hands before she knew he had moved. “Light, woman, don’t tell me I frightened you. I didn’t think being dropped in a pit with a pack of leopards would frighten you.”

“I am not frightened,” she said stiffly. Good; she could still lie. Tears, building inside.

“We have to work out some way not to be at one another’s throat all the time,” he said quietly.

“There is no reason for us to work out anything.” They were coming. They were coming. Oh, Light, she could not let him see. “Just leave me alone, please. Please, just go.” For a wonder, he hesitated only a moment before doing as she asked.

She manages to get alone before breaking down in sobs, and knows she is crying for her dead Warder, Alric, killed in the coup.

She could lie—the Three Oaths were still gone—but some part of her bond to Alric, a bond flesh to flesh and mind to mind, had been resurrected. The pain of his death, the pain first masked by the shock of what Elaida intended and then buried by stilling, that pain filled her to the brim. Huddled against the wall, bawling, she was only glad Gareth was not seeing this. I have no time to fall in love, burn him!

Shocked by the thought, she tells herself it is impossible, and then sees Leane standing there. She asks how Leane dealt with her Anjen’s death, fifteen years ago, and Leane answers that she cried every night for months, and then gradually it got less, but that is why she never bonded another after. Now, though, she thinks she could handle three or four. Siuan asks if Leane thinks “they” are ready; Leane thinks maybe, but asks if Siuan is sure she wants to go through with this. Their Healing has changed everything, and now they are not as strong as they were before. Siuan thinks it has to be risked. She is Aes Sedai again; does that not mean she is also Amyrlin again too?

Nynaeve staggers into her and Elayne’s room and flops onto her bed, trying to decide which of the Yellows is the most horrible woman alive. Elayne takes it they made her angry enough to channel; Nynaeve answers miserably that she demonstrated for every last Yellow in Salidar, and they have her on a rotating schedule starting tomorrow, and they are competing over who is going to break her block first. Elayne comments that she’s sorry she didn’t take Nynaeve’s suggestion to leave earlier; they could have woven disguises the way Moghedien taught them, and walked right out. Nynaeve stares at her in horror, and says she never even thought of that, and Elayne chastises herself for letting that slip, since she had been hoping Nynaeve wouldn’t ever think of it. Then Siuan and Leane enter, carrying a tray with soup and bread and a little flower arrangement, and Leane says she’d heard Nynaeve might be hungry. Nynaeve eyes them suspiciously, but takes the tray.

“I heard a rumor you addressed the Hall, Siuan,” Elayne said carefully. “Should we have curtsied?”

“Do you mean are we Aes Sedai again, girl? We are. They wrangled like fishwives on Sunday, but they granted that much at least.” Siuan exchanged glances with Leane, and Siuan’s cheeks colored faintly. Elayne suspected she would never learn what had not been granted.

Leane adds that she thinks she will choose Green; Nynaeve chokes on her spoon, and asks, is that allowed? Siuan replies that normally, no, but the Hall decided that all their ties were severed when they were stilled. Tomorrow she intends to petition the Blues to allow her back, though she wouldn’t be surprised if they refused, the way things are going. Elayne asks what she means, and Siuan tells them that Logain had tried to break free when he found out they knew he’d been Healed, and if fewer sisters had been holding his shield he might have succeeded.

“So he’s as strong as he ever was, or close enough to make no difference. I’m not. Neither is Leane. I want you to try again, Nynaeve.”

“I knew it!” Nynaeve flung her spoon down on the tray. “I knew you had some reason for this! Well, I’m too tired to channel, and it wouldn’t matter if I wasn’t. You can’t Heal what has been Healed. You get out of here, and take your vile-tasting soup with you!” Less than half the vile-tasting soup remained, and it was a big bowl.

“I know it won’t work!” Siuan snapped back. “This morning I knew stilling couldn’t be Healed!”

Leane points out that they are taking a big risk, coming here together like this; Aes Sedai can be made to do penance as much as any Accepted. They want to make a fresh start. Elayne asks why they didn’t go to one of the Yellows, who must know as much about it as Nynaeve by now (Nynaeve glares indignantly), and Siuan reluctantly explains that if they go to a sister, there will be no keeping it secret.

“If Nynaeve does it, maybe anybody who managed to weigh us today will think they were mistaken. Supposedly, all sisters are equal, and there have been Amyrlins who barely managed to channel enough to earn the shawl, but Amyrlins and the heads of Ajahs aside, by custom, if another is stronger in the Power than you, you’re expected to give way to her.”

This is news to Elayne, who reflects that she had long suspected that your education in being Aes Sedai didn’t really start until after you earned the shawl. Siuan continues that everything is accounted in the ranking: how long you were a novice or Accepted, how fast you learn, etc. Leane thinks being stilled and then Healed might count against them the same way being a wilder does; if Nynaeve can get them up to even two-thirds their former strength, it would help, but as it stands, their rank would be fairly low.

“The hierarchy isn’t supposed to rule anything except everyday life, but it does. Advice from somebody with higher standing is given more weight than from somebody with lower. It did not matter while we were stilled. We had no standing at all; they weighed what we said on merit alone. It will not be that way now.”

“I see,” Elayne said faintly. No wonder people thought Aes Sedai invented the Game of Houses! They made Daes Dae’mar look simple.

Siuan tells Nynaeve that she gave her back her life, and she wants Leane’s fresh start too; she offers friendship, or at least “crewmates on the same boat”. Elayne says she likes friendship better, but Nynaeve has a question first, about what Sheriam et al learned from the Wise Ones the night before. Leane kicks Siuan, and Siuan finally tells them that Elaida’s embassy has reached Rand in Cairhien, and Rand appears to be toying with them; also, Egwene will be at the next meeting. Nynaeve wants to know who the captain on Siuan’s hypothetical boat will be, and Siuan starts to snarl that she is, until Leane clears her throat, and reluctantly amends it to “equal shares”. But she gets to steer! Nynaeve tries to push for them to get her and Elayne out of the kitchens, but that doesn’t go over well. They take their leave; Leane hugs them both, whispering “Friends” to Elayne, and Siuan hugs Nynaeve gruffly too. After they are gone, Nynaeve remarks that Siuan was about to cry, and maybe she should be nicer to her, right before she falls asleep sitting up. Elayne puts her to bed and worries over Rand dealing with Elaida’s embassy until finally falling asleep herself. The next morning Siuan and Leane return, but the second Healing make no difference.

Delana takes tea with Siuan, reflecting on the bizarreness of the situation, and thinks that the most shocking thing was realizing that she was now much stronger in the Power than Siuan. She feels sympathy for the woman who she used to get into mischief with as novice and Accepted, and promises to do what she can regarding Siuan’s plan to get Sheriam to let her come to the meetings with the Wise Ones, though Delana comments she can’t imagine why Siuan would want to go. The plan involves a ploy to get Romanda to try to confiscate the dream ter’angreal for the Hall’s use, and Siuan is sure Lelaine and Janya will go along, though she cautions Delana that the proposal must not actually pass, as Romanda would likely put the Wise Ones’ backs up all over again.

Delana kept her smile inside as she escorted Siuan to the front step and gave her a hug. Yes, it would be very important to the Hall to keep the Wise Ones pacific, though Siuan had no way of knowing that. She watched Siuan hurry down the street before going back in. It seemed she was going to be the one doing the protecting now. She hoped she made as good a job of it as her friend had.

A novice appears and tells her a woman arrived this morning named Halima Saranov, and Anaiya Sedai said she should go to Delana. Delana starts to say she’s never heard of a Halima, but stops dead when the woman herself appears, fingers arranged in the sign that indicates she is Black Ajah. She dismisses the novice and demands to know what Halima is about, daring to use that sign when she can’t even channel; Halima gives her a mocking smile and points out that Delana would obey a beggar if he gave the right signs. Halima informs Delana that her cover story is that she was companion to a sister named Cabriana Mecandes, who died from a fall, and her Warder soon after of grief. Halima continues that Cabriana told her a great deal before she died, including about the White Tower’s plans for the rebels and the Dragon Reborn. Delana is displeased, but replies that she supposes Halima wants her to get this information to the Hall, and hopes that Halima knows enough about Cabriana to pass, as Delana barely knew her. Halima smiles and replies she “could recite Cabriana’s life”. She further informs Delana that being a guest is not good enough; Delana will take her on as her secretary and/or companion, for Halima needs to make sure the rebels’ Hall is guided carefully.

“Now you listen to me! I—!”

Halima cut her off without raising her voice. “I was told to mention a name to you. A name I use, sometimes. Aran’gar.”

Delana sat down heavily. That name had been mentioned in her dreams. For the first time in years, Delana Mosalaine was afraid.

 

Commentary
Good God, this was an effin’ long chapter. Which is probably why I quoted so much of it. Hokay, I’m going to just kind of follow the bouncy ball here.

Logain: Two things on him. First there is the revelation of his Talent, which most people have assumed is the same as Siuan’s (to see ta’veren), but from the way he put it might possibly be an odd sort of Foretelling. Of course, maybe he only said it that way because he didn’t know what he was seeing – i.e., ta’veren. So, yeah. Either way it was a nice detail, and now makes me wonder what it is like for him to actually be around Rand, like he is later. I would think talking to a guy who glows all the time just might be a tad distracting.

The other thing is my profound relief, the first time through, that Logain didn’t do what I totally expected him to when Nynaeve lost her shield, which was to make a break for it. That... would not have ended well. For anyone. I know he tried later, but he couldn’t have expected that to succeed, really. The time he would have been able to do the most damage was right at that moment; that he didn’t is why I suspect he’s secretly a good guy (as well as a Good Guy). Mostly, anyway; we still don’t know exactly what this prophesied glory of his entails, after all.

Siuan and Leane: Aw. How completely cool. It all starts going pear-shaped immediately after, of course, but for that one moment it was truly awesome to see some unadultered joy in WOT. It’s really pretty rare.

AND we got two Made Of Awesome moments in a row, which is extra lovely. Have I mentioned I heart Nynaeve? I think I might have mentioned that.

The other Aes Sedai I ain’t so much in love with at the moment, but I forgive Sheriam a lot for how warmly she welcomed Siuan back. Also, surprisingly, we get a small amount of Awesome from Carlinya, of all people, who is the one with the balls to point out the hypocrisy of re-gentling Logain when they’re contemplating supporting Rand. And really, she is so freaking right.

And logic aside, I wanted to smack Nisao for even suggesting it. To give him back such a thing, and then take it away again? Holy hell. Of course, I realize I’m looking at this from a slightly hindsight-being-20/20 perspective; they don’t know that saidin will be cleansed before Logain has a chance to go nuts, after all. But still.

Siuan and Bryne: *headdesk*

I’m trying really hard to ignore the spanking thing, you guys, I really am, but it is like nails on chalkboard to me every time. Back during the original Spanking Debate Debacle, someone commented to the effect that like it or not, spanking seems to be a generally accepted form of corporeal punishment for adults in Randland, and suggested that therefore it does not carry the same intensely degrading overtones that it would otherwise. I can see where this argument is coming from intellectually, but viscerally I really don’t buy it. Mostly because I still observe that the only people we’re seeing getting spanked in WOT are women; the fact that it is as often administered by other women as men does not mitigate this lopsidedness in the slightest. In fact, if anyone can come up with an example in the text of an adult male character in WOT getting spanked – an adult, mind you! – I’d love to hear about it, because I can’t think of a single one, and I’m sorry, the whole thing just... gah.

Moving on. I can’t believe Siuan honestly thought there was a ghost of a chance the rebels would actually reinstate her as Amyrlin. Under any circumstances, really, but especially in light of what we learn in this chapter regarding Aes Sedai hierarchy. Which, sigh, I guess means I have to talk about it now.

I’ve already commented in passing (and I’m hardly the first to do so) on the inherent dumbness of basing leadership on such an arbitrary factor as strength in the Power. The problem is that when you look at it, this is not much different from how leadership is often decided in the real world. No, getting elected to high office doesn’t solely depend on your wealth (power), your connections (leverage, which equals power) and your looks (a type of wealth, ergo power), but anyone who thinks these don’t carry a serious amount of weight in how people get ahead in the world is fooling themselves. Sure, there are those who buck the trend and get there on merit (just as Siuan mentions that there have been Amrylins who can barely channel), but these are the exceptions, not the rule. Sucks, don’t it?

So yeah, it’s stupid, but not in the sense of plot stupidity, so much as art stupidity imitating life stupidity. Whee.

As far as it goes on a plot level, I get the sense that this has been a political wrinkle Jordan had brewing subliminally all along, but here, for whatever reason, is where he decided to really go with it and bring it into play. You can tell by the fact that right about here is where fans started making flowcharts to keep track of what the hell is going on with the Aes Sedai.

I kind of both love and hate this. If I may be allowed to enter the realm of video game metaphor (as all serious literary critics do), this is the part of the game you groan at because it takes sixteen hundred years to get all the stupid special items you need together and talk to the right zombie mercenary and earn enough to buy the right armor and, I dunno, breed the right giant chicken or knock over the right ATM or whatever, but you slog through all that because even while you hate it, you get a sense of achievement out of beating it all down and figuring it all out, and thus it is kind of perversely fun. And, of course, it lets you get to the really fun stuff after it.

What I’m trying, convolutedly, to say is that the whole Aes Sedai Daes Dae’mar thing is something I find simultaneously frustrating and fascinating, and thus probably should have gone into politics, except for how I can’t stand politicians. And also, have no money or connections. Uh, so, probably good call sticking with the fantasy novels, really.

I sense I have strayed from the point. But I think the point was fairly well made and/or you’re tired of me talking about it, so I’ll leave it there.

Last note! Delana: I really don’t get it. How can you be all concerned and protective of a woman of whose cause (and life, and planet) you are simultaneously plotting to destroy? Is there no cognitive dissonance there at all? Shouldn’t her head spin around or something? It’s freaking me out, maaaan.

Also, enter Halima. Dun? I dunno, I’m kind of exhausted now. I’ll have to come back to her.


And that is the end! There’s no more to send! I’ll see you again..d! Byeeee!

203 comments
roywa
1. roywa
Greet reread. Thanks for the early post.
roywa
2. Lost in my own Mind
I have never bought the fact that the Aes sedai don't gentle Logain again. Supporting the savior of the world, even if he will go mad and destroy large parts of it, is very different than allowing Logain to continue being a threat to so many lives. At the time he is healed it is known what could happen when he goes mad, and he is not the prophesized savior. I have similar feelings about Rand's founding of the Black Tower. Both also feel like convienent plot points to me, stuck in because Jordan needed them rather than because the characters would really have done it.

Still, I do love the healing scene.
roywa
3. Ange999999
I have been hanging out for this chapter recap. Yay for Nynaeve! :)
roywa
4. Lsana
There are a couple of things that this chapter brought up for me that I wanted to comment upon:

First, it seems to me that Elayne is wrong on the Aes Sedai hierarchy being a complicated form of politics. It seems to me that Aes Sedai politics are as simple as things ever get in politics: mine is bigger than yours, and if I can beat you up, that makes me right. In the real world, power politics get complicated because they depend on so many factors: wealth, alliances, looks/charisma (or in some cases, charisn'tma), etc. Here, power is a simple factor that everyone involved can "see" with their own eyes. It's less complicated than cavemen comparing the size of their clubs. It's a terrible system, but it does have the advantage of being simple.

Second, on Delena: it doesn't make any logical sense, but it is realistic. We already have the example of the Black Ajah who is a cat-lover, as well as Kadere who loved his sister so much. On a more abstract level, every Darkfriend is trying to gain power and immortality while at the same time working to destroy the world in which he would exercise that power and live forever. The servants of the Dark seem pretty good at self-delusion, so I don't really have a problem with the idea that Delena wouldn't see a contradiction between trying to protect Suian while at the same time bringing back the Dark One.
F Shelley
5. FSS
Well, Rand gets slapped every other book, but that's not spanking.

Nyneave kicks Mat in the behind a few chapters, does that count?

There's the time the Maidens held Rand down and beat the crap out of him, but that's not spanking either.

Let's see, there's the time Cadsuane switched him with the Power in the Stone of Tear in KoD.

There!

Or does it not count if a man is not bent over a woman's knee, cause she'd have to be seriously strong to pull that off, and that may be the root of your issue. Except for when the Maidens ganged up on Rand for being a dunderhead.

Let it go, Leigh.
Jeff Weston
6. JWezy
Cognitive Dissonance - What about Ingtar? He certainly had his MOA moments, despite his DF-osity.

And is Paitr Conel acting as a DF when he tries to help Morgase escape from Amador? Or is he acting as an Andorman? Hmmm....
roywa
7. Lsana
@2 Lost in my own Mind,

I believe that the Salidar Aes Sedai wouldn't gentle Logain for the reason Carlinya brought up: Rand has made it pretty clear by founding the Black Tower that he doens't see a distinction between himself and other men who channel. Therefore, he would take it personally if they were to re-gentle Logain or hunt down other men who can channel. If they want to avoid antagonizing him, they have to allow Logain to keep his power. But I think they would be terrified over what was going to happen.

I am a little surprised, though, that Rand didn't get more resistance over the Black Tower from people on the scene. The traditional methods of dealing with men who can channel were developed because these people always go insane and kill people. The Red Ajah wasn't persecuting poor innocents, they were taking AK-47s away from men who are losing the ability to distinguish between people and trees. Rand is proposing driving more men mad and replacing those AK-47s with atomic bombs. I'm surprised that even his closest allies went along with that without more than a token protest.
James Jones
8. jamesedjones
Both Chapters: Made - Of - Awesome!

Favorite Part: when Logain gives all the Aes Sedai a blank look and shrugs! Seriously, this guy has just been given his life back. I know, his only hope is to convice them that he's harmless and then wait for their guard to drop. But this would be impossible for me to do. I love it!

6 JWezy

Paitr is definitely acting as a darkfriend. Morgase=Leverage. And let's not forget the comment about his uncle (his DF boss) using Morgase to make up for a mistake in Andor...
Theodor Engström
9. Theodor
@2 lost in my own Mind

Yeah, but Logain isn't really any danger to anyone as long as he is shielded, and the Aes Sedai would have kept him like that forever, stalling a decision, if Egwene hadn't helped him escape.

Concerning Logain not taking the chance when Nynaeve dropped her shield, I don't think this was because he didn't want to hurt anyone. Instead he acted to save his own skin. Sure he could have blasted the Aes Sedai in the room to pieces, but there is no way that he could have fought his way out without being killed.
roywa
10. Monktongaz
I never really get into the analysis of these things. My favourite part of both chapters was the description of the hope in Leanne's face when Siuan is healed and her reaction to it. I always liked Leanne and this was definitely one of those 'put the book down' moments :)
Bill Siegel
11. ubxs113
Thanks Leigh! This is when I started to like Nynaeve my first time through the series all those many years ago. Now she's one of my favorite characters.
F Shelley
12. FSS
To make a more complete list (going off the top of my noggin):

Egwene whacking Rand in the Stone of Tear for pinching her and Elayne's butts.

Moiraine whacking Rand across the back in Rhudien for calling her Little Sister.

The tower Aes Sedai beating him senseless and keeping him in a box.

And after that, I think Cadsuane's the only one smacking him around, those ter angreal in her hair giving her the ability to take him on.
Matthew Smith
13. blocksmith
First (post) and Long (re-reader since TWEOTW)...hey, it's football season.

I deliberately waited until this chapter to comment because of how momentous the actions and developments were. From Nynaeve's discovery of the ability to heal gentling/stilling, I realized that the three major Can't Be Dones would likely be rendered obsolete; Stilling/Gentling, Cleansing Saidin, and reversing Death. You could add Erasing the DO also, but that's the whole point to the epic, afterall. A truly awesome and inspiring moment for Siuan and Leane however later tempered...that wasn't a tear, just something caught in my eye.

It also made Min's viewing of Logain's return to glory, shall we understate, very plausible?

And not to revisit a touchy subject, but...the whole spanking thing. I agree that it appears to only occur to female characters (excepting of course the occasional pinch/whip delivered by Moiraine/Eg on Rand) in WOT but would point out that public humiliation (ie. stocks, flogging) was commonplace everywhere as a means to punish offenders of both the law and moral behavior with the hope that the shame was the real means to change the offending behavior. Since everyone knows about the punishments, it becomes very similar.

Anyway...truly love the re-reads, Leigh. Keep up the most excellent work.
roywa
15. BlueHaze
Cadsuane spanks Rand with the power in the Stone of Tear in KOD for his rudeness. She even counts it down for him.
Maiane Bakroeva
16. Isilel
OK, I am now re-reading TFoH the last volume in my complete re-read of the saga caused by by these re-read threads and I am wholly certain now that Morgase wasn't firing all her cylinders when she went to Amadicia.
Gareth Bryne immediately thinks that whatever Ailron does is always dictated by Whitecloaks and by all accounts Morgase used to be at least his match intellectually and in political shrewedness. So, yea, maybe she continues to be so pathetic because she is still partially affected by Compulsion and doesn't know that she needs to fight it some more to free herself completely. Maybe the revelation of Rahvin = Gaebril will allow her to re-gain her early impressiveness.

Logain... to be honest, he always seemed a relatively unpleasant man to me, though he became better in later books. I do hope that we will learn something mitigating about him proclaiming himself a DR and actively causing deaths of thousands, because IMHO it is a truly serious crime.

Yes, it sucks to be a male channeler in WoT, but they were ticking bombs until the Cleansing and it was nobody's fault. Of nobody living, at least.

While the AS should have tried harder to help them survive the gentling, they really couldn't have done anything else to help the male channelers - Healing doesn't work, and it took the strongest ta'veren of an Age, with knowledge of LTT, information from the *Finn and access to strongest sa'angreal ever made, to change it.
The only honorable and decent choices for the men were either to kill themselves or to give themselves up to the WT.

@2:

I agree with you about the BT and Logain.

The Healing scenes are awesome, of course.

And one of the most irritating plot devices enters the scene front and center - the AS power ranking. Actually, it seems to go counter to a lot of things in the earlier books, but I guess that RJ needed an explanation for massive AS stupidity he was about to unleash on us, that wouldn't make them seem like a completely lost cause.
Personally, I think that it wasn't necessary, as capable people working at cross-purposes can paralyze things and cause disasters just as surely as fools, but IMHO YMMV.

everything is accounted in the ranking: how long you were a novice or Accepted, how fast you learn,

Yes, everything except for what really matters, like actual achievements _after_ somebody reaches the shawl.
No wonder that WT is so ineffective - intelligence and non-OP talent or even particular OP skills aren't appreciated at all and weaker AS who want to avoid being pushed around are well advised to stay away and to pursue their own interests or enjoy themselves, instead of doing WT work.

I disagree that it is like RL - as things a person does after finishing their education matter more IRL. Also, it is possible to become rich or become poor, but one's power level is set in stone.

Siuan and Bryne... argh! Siuan is such a clever and otherwise mature character, I don't see why her romantic relationship needed to be so ridiculous.
Also - was Bryne's affair with Morgase doomed (they were unable to progress to a marriage despite eminent suitability and more than a decade together), because he couldn't justify spanking his Queen? ;).
Kristina Blake
17. kab1
These two chapters have to be some of my favorites in the series. When Nynaeve first said she as going to Logain, I remember thinking, could this be it?!?!

I also loved how RJ wrote this scene with Nynaeve thinking about matters with the other AS and Ewgene while channeling at Logain. It just reminded me of those times that you try and try at something, but only succeed when you are relaxed and your instincts take over. Also reminds me a bit of how Nynevae was healing people in the Two Rivers, she just did it, without knowing she was channeling. Although here she obviously knows, as she thinks "bridged with Fire and Spirit"

Made of Awesome!
roywa
18. Tabernerus
A couple of comments:

1.) The decision to not sever Logain from the power again was made purely for reasons of political expediency, I think. A previous commenter mentioned that by founding the Black Tower, Rand made it clear that HE saw all male channelers as being deserving of freedom, respect, blah, etc. Given that, the SAS can't just ignore that part, and hope Rand is fine with it.

2.) As for whether this is in character for Rand, or simply RJ setting up a future plot arc, Rand on several occasions references the idea that the AS have been "culling" the ability from the human herd. While this is later shown to be pretty much a crap argument (And also, what the heck are they supposed to do, let them run free?), it's pretty clear Rand buys it at first. Maybe his background as a shepherd comes into play, but he just views it as wrong, somehow, on a visceral level. Which makes perfect sense, since a prophecy that might mean anything is the only reasons they haven't bothered to gentle him, leaving him a depressed and suicidal husk of a man. Good times!

3.) Finally, here's my alternate theory of why RJ made strength in the power the main point of AS hierarchy. Without it, how in the HELL do Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene ever get taken seriously in the time frame we're talking about??? I mean, no matter what they "accomplish" via Moghedien (or on their own, for that matter), who takes the crabby 22 year old seriously, among a bunch of century-old power brokers who have been controller the KNOWN WORLD for longer than history remembers? Ahh, but introduce strength in the power as the determining factor, and suddenly those three are quite reasonably higher on the totem pole that just about anyone.
Kurt Lorey
19. Shimrod
A possible miss in continuity. I don't remember Nyaneve giving up on Logain's gag of Air before he said something to the Sisters coming in the door to confront Nynaeve.

Think how strong Logain must be to have almost broken six Sisters holding a Shield. If he had some hints to Age of Legends knowledge (like Rand), who knows what he might have done? Would have been bad in the long term, though.

Concerning the Great Debate Debacle. I am interested to hear of acceptable alternative behaviors that would still be sufficiently painful and humiliating as an object lesson for stubborn, willful adult persons (of either gender) that doesn't take more than 10 minutes to accomplish.

edit: btw, I am not a "s" proponent by any stretch of imagination.
Maiane Bakroeva
20. Isilel
Re: Siuan's attempt at regaining Amyrlin Seat - she had to try it. She couldn't know how long it would take for Egwene to arrive and besides it is easier to rule directly than through an intermediary. The AS seemed happy to have her back and it was only sensible to attempt to ride this wave of goodwill back into the saddle. And her becoming so much weaker OP-wise only made it more imperative.
Actually, but for the fact that Siuan had very little experience in the outside world and thus was rather close-minded compared to Egs (though not to her co-AS), this may have even been a better way.

Speaking of Delana and DFs in general, let's not forget that things were very different when they first signed up.
They may have hoped for immortality, riches and countries to rule, but in reality they got power of life and death over other people - which can be insanely addicting, possibly advancement opportunities or even just a delightful sense of wickedness to spice up their existence. They didn't know that the Apocalypse would come during their lifetimes and how casually their lives will be used up.

And it is not clear IMHO that teh DO doesn't intend to change the world in ways that would still allow human life.
Bryan Cogswell
21. shmoo
So...anyone have any thoughts on what gets healed next?

Stilling/Gentling (check)
The Taint (check)
Compulsion? (sure why not)
Rand's madness? (ishy did it once)
Death? (i'm thinking not so much)
Francesco Paonessa
22. ErrantKnave
Ooooh yeah! The Healing Logain moment might rank as the coolest moment in the books for me. Nynaeve's line is definitely an awesome way to end a chapter.

Now this has me thinking... what are other favourite moments? To qualify, it has to be something pretty damn close to unbelievable. The only one I can think of right now is the cleansing of the taint, although that wasn't instant like Healing Logain. Any ideas?
Andrew Jenson
23. Redwing
Go Nynaeve! While I feel for those who have to live with you, I'm glad you're part of team Light.

Agreed that the Healing of Suian and Leane were very poignant (as well as funny: "Oh shut up!"). I hope they eventually get their full strength back by the Asha'man Healer.

Besides all the awesomeness in these chapters, I was struck by Nyn's demonstration with the Yellows...I thought she'd been studying Healing (during her first time at the WT and then here in Salidar)? Why are they so surprised she does it a different way?

I was also thinking last night about the logistics of guarding Logain. Six sisters, 24/7, maintaining a weave. Is holding the shield easier than active channeling? Or do they need to spell each other every few hours? Given how busy they are I can't imagine it was easy to find that many sisters and put together an equitable rotating schedule...since they know they can Heal him right back whenever they want, I'm surprised more weren't arguing to gentle him again just for the sheer burden of maintaining a shield.
roywa
24. Cristine
I'm finally caught up to the re-read again. These chapters are some of my favorite in the book.
I like Nynaeve & Logain. I hope he doesn't turn out to be a DF. We already have Taim and his group.
So...anyone have any thoughts on what gets healed next?
Rand's madness? (ishy did it once)
His madness has to be healed or it will be another LTT disaster all over again.
Death? (i'm thinking not so much)
That could happen to Rand depending what it means by to live he must die.
Though if they do happen it probly won't be until right before Tarmin Gaiden.
Sean Banawnie
25. Seanie
shmoo@21 How about Gawyn's idiotness?

Leigh , I think reason lies somewhere between You and FSS.Spanking and violence are two different issues. I get your dislike of the humiliation and dominance factors but there are plenty of examples (thank you FSS) where the SGs (and others) get their shots in too. I just think you take it just a mite too ---personal ? IMHO.
Anyways lots of poignancy in these chapters.
Thanks for the WOT jerky to chew on before I get ready for work. *smacks lips*---oops dribbles....sheepbrained mudfoot.....
Maggie M
26. Eswana
This is one of my favorite sequences, since it's such a Crowning Moment of Awesome for my girl Nynaeve (possibly only eclipsed by her awesomeness in the Borderlands at the end of KoD).

So... yay.

blocksmith @13
Welcome! Wow, you have some killer self-control to wait on commenting until this moment. I salute you.

The AS hierarchy scheme has always bugged me. It's so freaking ridiculous. However, you might make a case that some of the ways we determine power and prestige in our own society are just as dumb (ie, people who happen to be born in a higher socioeconomic class have more money, connections, opportunities, etc, and they didn't necessarily earn it.... but that's a whole other can of worms). But strength in the Power is genetic, for heaven's sake... AS power structure is akin to ranking people based on their eye color regardless of work ethic. Geez.

Okay. This may be a silly question, but I've always assumed that Siuan lied to Logain and to the Salidar Six about the Reds and their setting-up-Logan thing. Now, how much does Logan know? What if he spills the beans? Since then, I've worried that at some point, Siuan is going to get caught in her lie and everyone will know that she and Leane are not bound by the Oaths anymore- which will throw everything she's done since arriving in Salidar into question, possibly even up to and including Egwene selection as Amrylin (remember it was Siuan & Leane's manipulation that led to the Salidar Hall choosing Egwene.)

And oh, the fun it will be!
vo mabulay
27. alreadymad
Tabernerus @18
The reason AS put so much stock in strength in the Power is because it is the ONLY thing that makes them special. Sure their education is supposed to be well rounded, but you can setup a library and teachers anywhere. Pretty pointless to put up a school exclusively for those with the Power and not value it.

Maybe men don't get spanked because they have other forms of corporeal punishment for them. It's made pretty clear that corporeal punishment is considered acceptable in WoT. Rand gets beaten up a lot by females as a previous post noted. It's just the spanking version that's more commonly applied to females.
Or maybe it's because females are generally expected to behave maturely. No points off on men because they aren't really expected to act as adults. But women, they're supposed to be adults. So acting like a child merits a punishment befitting a child.
Mitchell Swan
28. mcswan
@22

Nynaeve's Block disappearing has always edged this out (barely) as my favorite scene in the whole series. Mainly because it's such a personal immediate issue for Nynaeve. The Healing of Stilling, while important to the world outside, was at worst a hobby and at best a strong goal of Nynaeve, but not an obsession on a personal level.

Her Block was much more intense and meaningful to her and was much more of a defining influence on her as a person.

Logain's Healing was definitely a "Holy crap!" moment, but:

And with hope gone, flickering on the edge of consciousness like a guttering candle flame, she did something she had never done before in her life. She surrendered completely.

Saidar flowed into her, filled her.

was the first time I actually yelled "Yes!"
Lannis .
29. Lannis
I ? these two chapters! I second Leigh's comment about there being just enough emotional build up to carry this Made of Awesome moment, because I, too, was filled with excitement for Logan, and actually got teary when Siuan and Leane were Healed. Still do on rereads, too.

And I ? the Siuan-Bryne exchange that Leigh's quoted, too... as the whole "follow a pair of blue eyes" thing may not have been too believable as a beginning, I do enjoy the tidbits of their romance that we see...

Geez, who knew I was such a romantic?

Especially the fact that Bryne's all "we can do this, we can fix this" and he doesn't even realize that yes, Siuan's crying, but no, it's NOT what he thinks... touching that he wants to help, but he's wrong about what the problem is ATM, and frankly it all harkens back to the crossed communication wires (again).

Shimrod @ 19: re: Nynaeve channeling Logan's gag of air... IIRC, Nynaeve redirects her whole strength into the shield, afraid of just how powerful Logain might be...

Big ol' welcome to the new folks! :)

@ mcswan... YES! YES! YES! :)

Thanks for the recap, Leigh! Made my day! :)

EDIT: tweaked a bit.
Tess Laird
30. thewindrose
On shielding - as we learn from LTT in Rands head, if you knot the shield, a channeler can break through it, so it has to be actively maintained. Now, I am at work so I can't go back and look at how Egwene, Nyn and Elayne were shielded in Tear by the black sisters. I seem to recall only two were shielding them(all three!) - so it must have been an active shield not knotted.
So - Logain would have to be actively shielded, not tied off, so the SAS would have to take turns. And since it would be boring reading about that, RJ probably just doesn't mention it.
But I agree that Rand would have had a problem with any man getting gentled now. Egwene had the right idea in letting Logain go, and making it look like an escape.

Lsana has a good point about questioning why people aren't more appalled with Rands amnesty for male channelers. Maybe ta'vern, or maybe just people are scared to bring it up to him.
Maiane Bakroeva
31. Isilel
at some point, Siuan is going to get caught in her lie

IMHO, it will be Gawyn that will denounce Siuan. He knows that she lied to him about SGs being in Illian and he hates her.

Logain had to play along and use names/script provided by Siuan, so of course he knows it for a lie. But he does have that oddly protective attitude towards the AS when he isn't enslaving them and he knows that he owes his life to Egwene and Siuan, so he'll keep the secret, IMHO.

However, nobody realizes that Siuan selected Egwene or indeed that they wouldn't have even elected the Hall without her, so there won't going to be any backlash there, IMHO. Siuan is really an awesome character when one considers what she accomplished while being ostensibly powerless and downtrodden.

I love Nyn and these chapters are such a mix of greatness and hilarity for her! What was the deal with her sudden bout of joyous über-humility, though? And the aftermath of her big moment! LOL.

However, it shows that AS aren't quite as hide-bound as advertized. They are quite eager to leap at new things and develop them further. IMHO, it is all the secrecy that is at fault. A lot of supposedly forgotten things probably got rediscovered from time to time - but with rigid OP-strength hierarchy there was little drive to share them and so they were kept back for some secret advantages and died with respective AS. Ambition is _the_ motive forces behind making discoveries public IRL, after all.
James Jones
32. jamesedjones
22 ErrantKnave

Events that rank with healing Logain? Hmm...

Rands arrival at the Golden Bowl and Nyneave's ingathering of the Borderlands. I actually had to put the book down for a moment when Nyneave did her thing up north. It's my all time favorite, so far. Of course, RJ/BS will probably revisit it (and diminish it) with Lan already leading several thousand troops and just reflecting obscurely about the events for him between.
Kerwin Miller
33. tamyrlink
but could you imagine elaida's face when beonin returned to the tower and told her suian was healed, and the amyrlin seat? or just elaida's face if she had found out before that?
roywa
34. Lsana
@16 Isilel,

I too have wondered about why Logain declared himself the Dragon Reborn: the man who destroyed the world once and will do it again. Yeah, he saved it and will save it again too, but the stories about the Dragon seem to emphasize the bad and put him about on par with the Dark One. So why would Logain, who does seem to be a decent man, decide that this was a title he wanted? Maybe it was the taint. Maybe Suian's story wasn't as much a fabrication as she thinks; maybe someone, Aes Sedai or not, put the idea into his head.

Somehow or another, though, I would like to see this dealt with. If Logain declared himself the DR for some reason other than been a power-hungry bastard, that's interesting and should come into the story. If he didn't...well, that too should be dealt with in some way.
John Mann
35. jcmnyu
I hate these chapters because they just show me that I am a pansy. Every freaking time I read this chapter I get emotional. Every time. I must have read this book 10 times and Fire and Spirit two dozen times and it never fails. Even reading this recap got to me. Stupid excellent writing and well plotted moments. Damn you to hell, Nynaeve, for being awesome when I got so annoyed with you over the last few books. I hate it when characters don't stay in the neat little specimen boxes I have placed them in. You can take these chapters and the "veins of gold" chapter later on and remove them from the series. Who wants real emotions to cloud their need for blood and gore, braid pulling, and descriptions of what everyone is wearing? Not me. No, sir.

Well maybe a little.
Maggie M
36. Eswana
tamyrlink @ 33

That's a pretty awesome face :-)

Isilel @31

I'd bet you're right. This might even be the point where Egwene's dream about him going down one path where she dies and another where she lives comes true, depending on how he handles the whole thing relative to his love for Egwene. oooooh I hope this is at least partially addressed in tGS... and based on Jason's review, it might be!!! I can't wait!
roywa
37. Tialin
Wow, yet another great read through, Leigh! And how could you go wrong with such great chapters - some of the best in the series.

18. @ Tabernerus

The Aes Sedai ARE culling the ability out of mankind, at least in some parts of Randland. Clearly, the Sea Folk and Aiel, not to MENTION the Ayyad, never got that memo. RJ stated in an interview that the One Power was genetic and passed on by inheritance. So Rand's sheepherder instincts stood him in good stead. Even the Aes Sedai are starting to get it - recall the reference to "the Whites mad plan" to have Aes Sedai bear children by men who could channel?

So, how is the Aes Sedai hierarchy any different from a hereditary monarchy? They are less rigid about the details, of course, inherited ability to channel being the determining factor rather than family connections, but the principle is not far different. AS or royalty - "a different flesh" and above the commoners.

I can't end without echoing so many others - Yay, Nynaeve!

Also, who else caught that Delana was a close friend of Siuan's before Siuan was raised Amyrlin? Is that significant? Or mere coincidence. Does such a thing as coincidence EXIST in the Wheel of Time?
roywa
38. Tialin
36. Eswana

We did an fun interview with Jason Denzel on his review of TGS on the 4th Age Podcast, Episode 54.

You can find it at http://www.dragonmount.com/Podcast/?p=142, or on iTunes. Shameless plug, sorry...yes, I am one of the podcasters!

Indulge your inner WoT geek with us!
Virginia
Luke M
39. lmelior
breed the right giant chicken

I tought I taw a Final Fantasy VII reference. I did! I did!

All of my energy for debating these controversial topics has deserted me, so I'll leave it for you newer whippersnappers. I don't know how you keep it up Leigh!
Elroy Skimms
41. elroyskimms
... which contains enough irony to set off metal detectors.

Took me a moment to make sense of this comment, but in the end, I thought it was brilliant.

Byeeee!

Was that a subtle reference to the "Retarded Policeman"?

-E
sandi vogel
42. sinfulcashew
Lsana@34
Perhaps he just realized that he could channel and with all the hoopla about men channeling, thought that he must be the real DR?

Awesome moments:
Everytime I read the later chapter where Perrin "questions" one of the four captured Aiel, I am speechless. It shocked me and I had to put the book away for a few minutes to digest it.
Sweet, gentle, Perrin?

Moraine dying. Pretty much was another shocker to me.

How about Rand losing his hand?

I am sure there are a few(haha) more incidents, but I cannot think of them at this moment.

As for alot of neat stuff, I really enjoyed Mat and Tuon's 'getting to know you' chapters.
roywa
43. gunrock
Just adding to the list of guys who have been spanked since most of the women are spanked off screen and rand is quite often spanked/beaten on screen,Cadsuane when talking to rand about doing just such a thing mentioned that she had spanked both Male and female rulers I believe the quote was "not sitting rulers" after she was done with them so while it may not be exactly 50/50 I think the level of physical abuse leveled is pretty equal.
Genevieve Williams
44. welltemperedwriter
I'm near the end of aCoS right now; there's a bit where Cadsuane threatens to spank Rand, though it doesn't occur right then.

I'm pretty sure I remember Tylin threatening to spank Mat, too. Don't know if she actually did.

I pretty much share Leigh's opinion of the whole thing, frankly. Spanking implies a power differential that I find troublesome in personal relationships.
Jeff Weston
45. JWezy
Nobody called "Poll" yet, but here are my favorite WOT-moments, more or less in order:

Dumai's Wells - The moment where Rand breaks free. So much is happening at once, and it all comes to a head right then.

The Battle of Emond's Field - Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat (vs. the shadowspawn army), then having to do it again by their wits (from the Whitecloaks).

Nynaeve and Elayne apologize to Mat - This sequence is just a hoot.

Mat waking up in Tar Valon - The moment where we begin to see why RJ was so fond of Mat (at least, it always seemed to me that Mat was the character RJ had the most fun with).

Prologue: Dragonmount - I was hooked in the first five pages. I still can't read the first sentence without being swept up in it.

The history of the Aiel revealed to Rand - So much information, fitting together so many pieces and hints, I suddenly felt that the whole world had become so much richer and more intertwined. It was clear that there was much more in RJ's mind than we knew, and that we were in for a ride sorting all that stuff out.

Mat "leading" the army at Cairhien (TFoH) - another great Mat-moment.

Healing Gentling/Stilling - Enough said today, but still. Tight writing, good (and long) lead-up, plausible action leading to a situation very nearly spiraling out of control.

Perrin in the blacksmith's forge in Tear - Rich in character development, for some reason this calm-before-the-storm sequence resonates with me.

Supergirls at the Menagerie - I know, plenty of people are not fond of this sequence, but I love it. So much of it just makes me smile, laugh, and shake my head. In particular, the different ways the characters respond to the shared circumstances underscores their individuality.

Mat being cornered by Tylin - This is just hilarious, especially when he can barely bring himself to explain it to Elayne. When you realize how quickly this follows the "apology", you can tell this is one ov my favorite books.

"Matrim Cauthon is my bloody husband!" - This one made me laugh out loud.

-------------

Lots to like, that's why I'm still here. And I cannot contain myself to one or two, sorry (No, I'm not).
Rich Gold
46. richg25
>> In fact, if anyone can come up with an example in the text of an adult male character in WOT getting spanked – an adult, mind you! – I’d love to hear about it

Leigh, Siuan is not actually spanked here - it is only discussed. The same thing happens while Rand is in Far Madding later on. The female inn owner tells Min that men (while looking at Rand) need regular spankings.
j p
47. sps49
Will Egwene be intended as a placeholder Amyrlin, similar to the extra Hall members? Either way, if Siuan would be a more legitimate Amyrlin than Egwene, who has a few irregularities (no Oath Rod, no oval er'angreal, etc.) and this (plus self interest) could be driving Suian's reinstatement effort.
Theodor Engström
48. Theodor
@34

Well, what choice did he have? Either he is a lonely channeler who is going to turn mad, rot, be hated and hunted down, or he can try to make something good out of his desperate situation. And declaring himself the Dragon Reborn really is the only good option left. In his situation I wouldn't really call that selfish. Logain probably also thought that he was the Dragon Reborn, or at least hoped.

And do we really know that Logain did bad things when he was a False Dragon? The few mentionings we have had have all been from unreliable sources.

Sure Logain gathered soldiers and fought battles for his own glory, but is that more selfish then Elayne sacrificing men in battle just so that she can get her throne? And my guess would be that Logain was the one who was attacked after he declared himself, not the other way around.
Josh Davis
49. YoSoyElJosh
Good afternoon, all,

Just a couple of notes.

Rand may just be following prophecy regarding the Black Tower:

"The guardians balance the servants." That's Asha'man and Aes Sedai, if I remember my Old Tongue. Also, hopefully, a clue that channelling will be preserved beyond the Third Age.

He's shown he's not interested in letting prophecy happen on its own, and has gone on to force it to happen.

And for Darkfriends with contradictory agendas, I guess it's just not that surprising to me. After Ingtar and Carridin, it never shook me to learn that someone might actively wage war for and against the Shadow, as ridiculous as such a notion must be logistically.
James Jones
50. jamesedjones
49 YoSoyElJosh

Rand didn't get that memo. That was a foretelling from one of the Salidar novices.

Edit: And it happened after Rand announced his amnesty.

EditEdit: He's been late with his TPS reports, too.
roywa
51. Belmont
1. Another vote for Yay/Go Nynaeve.

2. "Halima" = "Old Tongue" for
"Why Can't A Woman Be More Like A Man"?
(from the movie/musical "Victor/Victoria")
Tess Laird
52. thewindrose
50 - jej -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dom Portwood: Hi, Peter. What's happening? We need to talk about your TPS reports.
Peter Gibbons: Yeah. The coversheet. I know, I know. Uh, Bill talked to me about it.
Dom Portwood: Yeah. Did you get that memo?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah. I got the memo. And I understand the policy. And the problem is just that I forgot the one time. And I've already taken care of it so it's not even really a problem anymore.
Dom Portwood: Ah! Yeah. It's just we're putting new coversheets on all the TPS reports before they go out now. So if you could go ahead and try to remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!
andy
53. acamp30
My first time through LOC way back when, I didn't put the book down after this point. From the moment Nynaeve healed Logain, the pace of events was awesome. It felt like a sprint to me - I think I was breathing hard after I finished. I'll be interested to see if the re-read confirms that memory.

I felt like this section of the series was the height. Everything seemed at this point to be connected - I would have believed that this chapter was written at the same time as the prologue from tEOTW. The general layout and plot arcs of books 1-6 are tightly scripted, plotted, and blocked, culminating here. I loved it.

After this book, the series changed for me. In addition to the style and plot problems in later books (too many characters!), I think a big reason is that the end of LOC is a breaking point in character development for many of our main characters. Before this point, they are still the people we met in chapter 1 book 1. After this, they are no longer recognizable. (with the exception of Matt, who was and still is a rasccal, which may be why he's always a favorite).

Which, in retrospect, is actually pretty cool. The events of LOC are the kind that will leave a mark. Character development, it's what's for dinner.
SEB
54. AngryAngryThorn
WOOO! Siuan and Leane are healed! I loved that chapter, especially since their stilling in the first place shocked me (yeah, I know, Im lame...but its really did!) Siuan is by far my fave AS but Leane is a good’un too-I just wish she got a bit more of a look in. In fact, these two chapters were pretty much awesomeness as far as characters go. Nynaeve is always fun to read because most people know someone a bit like her, Logains weirdly lovable and cool as a cucumber, Leane comes across as actually coping with badness in a healthy way (which seems so rare in WOT that Coping With Badness should have Talent status), Siuan is complicated without feeling forced, Gareth Bryne makes me smile...hours of fun. There were bits that I actually reread twice when I read this first time round just because I liked them so much, which is most distressing. Goodbye dignity, hello squealing happily at a page of words...
As a side note, I severely dislike the term “gentling”. It really has an unpleasant similarity to “gelding”, which was intentional, of course, but iiiieee. Even as a non-guy that makes me a little cringe-y.

Owie. Had never made that connection before but will now not be able to help doing so.
Heh, why are the girls so weirded out over drinking? Ive never really understood that. Especially since neither has had a bad experience as such; singing and making a wally of yourself in public beats forgetting where you live, sleeping in a wagon then waking up in a foreign country two days later to vomit for 36 hours.
Logain... to be honest, he always seemed a relatively unpleasant man to me, though he became better in later books. I do hope that we will learn something mitigating about him proclaiming himself a DR and actively causing deaths of thousands, because IMHO it is a truly serious crime.

Really? I always thought Logain was quite likable. He keeps his dignity and fierceness even when caged and rolled through the streets, he is quiet and well behaved when gentled and in the Tower and he manages to come across as redeemable even when he is arrogant. Though maybe its because by this point there are so many male channellers *cough*randandtaim*cough* who think a lot of themselves that Logain being a bit conceited pales in comparision. Meh, different opinions I guess ?
@16
Also - was Bryne's affair with Morgase doomed (they were unable to progress to a marriage despite eminent suitability and more than a decade together), because he couldn't justify spanking his Queen? ;).

LOL! Probably...
As far as the spanking thing goes, I, like most people, am torn between indignation and sniggering, but having thought about it, a possible theory is to put men and woman on a fair footing. If the characters we readers are intended to like go round getting hit and not responding, we loose respect for them but, fickly, if they go round backhanding women, regardless of the situation, we also loose respect for them. If, however, they take crap for a certain extent then respond in a way that allows them to hit back and humiliate without coming across as ‘Big Scary Bodyguard Beating Young Girl’, then thats a lesser of two evils.
Also it means we get to giggle like teenagers and make obvious jokes, but Im sure that wasn’t intentional :p
roywa
55. Lsana
@48 Theodor,

Logain started a war. Lots of people died. If he declared himself Dragon Reborn just to escape being gentled, that's pretty evil. Since he didn't have a giant OP TV to put his image up in the sky, him "declaring himself" must have almost certainly involved him attacking something and demanding that they kneel to him as the DR.

And there are plenty of examples of men who learn that they can channel who don't declare themselves to be the Dragon Reborn. It's true that Logain has no good options once he finds out he can channel, but I don't see how declaring himself the destroyer of the world is somehow a better option for a good person. He still dies, he just takes a large chunk of the world down with him. Remember how long Rand resisted the idea of being the Dragon even after he learned he could channel.

I haven't read Elayne's "polical drama" in a long time, so I can't really say if it was comparable. As I recall, though, she was defending Andoran law as well as her own claim to the throne.
R B
56. MasterAlThor
Sorry all I haven't been around but as 13 said it is football (American) season. The only thing that will surplant that is a day in Oct that everyone that matters is waiting for.

By the way, I can't wait for the World Cup. Go Brazil!!!!

Anywho, I completely agree with 13 and 27 on the spanking thing. Cadsuane is your example Leigh. But you might not think that it counts because he wasn't bent over her knee. I call BS on that cause it is still spanking. As a vet of getting spanked as a child I can tell you that being over someones knee is not the only position you can get spanked.

Also I would like to see another way you can get a willful, stubborn, know-it-all adult to stop behaving like a child in under 10 minutes. You can't do it in real life and you sure as hell can't do it here.

Example, everyone knows someone who always has to have the last word about something. The person who just pushes and pushes and even crosses the line sometimes. How, I ask you do you get that person under control? It really becomes more difficult when opposite genders are involved.

I done enough damage here, until next time, I am letting this one go.

Logain getting healed was cool. Nyneave is still a know-it-all brat. And the best chapters are still to come. Did I mention that this is my favorite book so far? Mebbe not.
Andrew Jenson
57. Redwing
Lsana @55

Didn't one of the characters early on (Verin?) hypothesize that the Pattern was spinning out False Dragons since the world needed one...and that they stopped once Rand was confirmed?

So, the Pattern may have been guiding Logain more or less against his will. Maybe his sparkiness manifested itself in some obvious miracles and he found himself with a group of followers he didn't ask for. That would make him question whether he might be the Real Deal.

...or he was just hungry for power and fame (infamy). The best example of male channelers IMHO are the Aiel. They take their newly awakened OP skills and run to the Blight to take out as many Shadowspawn as possible before dying/going mad.
Lily
58. Lily of the Valley
@23
I was also thinking last night about the logistics of guarding Logain. Six sisters, 24/7, maintaining a weave. Is holding the shield easier than active channeling? Or do they need to spell each other every few hours? Given how busy they are I can't imagine it was easy to find that many sisters and put together an equitable rotating schedule...since they know they can Heal him right back whenever they want, I'm surprised more weren't arguing to gentle him again just for the sheer burden of maintaining a shield.


Well, there are roughly 400 Aes Sedai in Salidar. It takes six to maintain a shield. As we see in Dumai's wells, knotted flows are easier to break and flows maintained by the channeler are much more difficult to get through. If six women hold a shield in rotating shifts for two hours at a time then it is entirely plausible that they hold a constant watch and shield on Logain.

Not to mention, he's a man who can channel, so I'm somewhat certain that an Aes Sedai would take time out of her day to ensure he doesn't get free, especially if they don't have the option of gentling him without bringing the wrath of the Dragon Reborn down on their heads.

Not to mention that if they gentle him again, they could with good conscience simply never Heal him after wards, especially if the sisters who are there to tell him they will Heal him again aren't there to do so when the opportune moment arrives. Or, something along the lines of "You will be Healed", but not "You will be able to channel again." Because then that leaves the door open for, "I've Healed you of that papercut you got last week. I never said anything about letting you touch the Source."

Annnnnnnnd, there's the possibility that the news that the SAS gentled Logain after finding out how to Heal stilling, whether or not they DID eventually Heal him again, could reach Rand, which would have the same effect as simply stilling him again. The DR is ticked off and alienates the one group of Westland channelers who desperately want/need to support him. They need the legitimacy of his support to help them pull down Elaida.

Soyeah. Holding a shield on him is more economic in the long run. =)

...wow. That was rather long-winded. Sorry?
roywa
59. Lost in my own Mind
Favorite moments- I have a lot of them but the chapter in KOD where Nyn gathers the borderlanders for Lan. I occasionally go back and just read that chapter. It gives me chills.

I have lots of others: Mat waking up in Tar Valon, fighting Galad and Gawyn. Actually almost any Mat scene.

As for not gentling Logain: imagine he is a nuclear war head with a faulty trigger, wouldn't you deactivate it even if the Soviets were pissed? Actually this is worse, Rand might be angry or might not. He might not even find out. And Logain is defenitely going to explode as far as the AS are concerned.
Pete Pratt
60. PeteP
During my most recent re-read, I got so excited waiting for these chapters. It is the post-Golden Crane re-evaluation of Nynaeve that turns a point a really liked to one of the best in the entire WoT series.

Just like the Galad re-evaluation following the KoD Prologue.

It is just beautiful.

Seanie @ 25 -- Gawyn's idiotness is just like Morgase's idiotness -- compulsion after-effects.
I know, we had the debate and will continue to have that debate, but Gawyn and Morgase were smart and educated people that became idiots. One we know was compelled. The other acted extremely odd, and even went and killed his friends, and has since acted as though he was missing a little up stairs.


Other great scenes --- tGH Rand at Cairhien; tGH Five Ride Forth; Perrin with Seanchan leaders; Rand at the Eye; Perrin saving Faile in tGH; Cleansing Saidin; Mat fighting his war to protect his wife; Rand and Co. battling hordes of Trollocs and Fades in KoD; the Golden Crane; Galad's duel; Perrin's rescue of the hostages from the Whitecloaks; etc....
D Z
61. Hopper
My top three favorite moments:

1. Dumai's Wells, such a good climactic moment

2. Nyn breaking her block

3. The Eye of the World... the whole book, mind you... changed my literary life forever
Matthew Smith
62. blocksmith
jwezy @45

I would add the chapter where Aviendha "unweaves" the gateway and absolutely annilihates the onrushing Seanchan forces as pretty significant wow moment.
Theodor Engström
63. Theodor
@55 Lsana

Yeah Logain started a war, which according to our morals today is wrong, but looking at Randland, that doesn't really stand out. And I'm not saying that he's a saint, I'm just saying that a person like Elayne for example isn't really any better.

And no she didn't defend Andoran law, every pretender had the law on their side, it was all about who could kill the most soldiers (mostly innocent young conscrips) until someone got enough support from the noble houses. Look at the slaughter in Knife of Dreams, just so that Elayne could have her throne.

And yes, Logains war killed people, mostly his own followers and professional soldiers sent against him, but that doesn't make him evil. It's not like he slaughtered civilians on purpose. And I didn't mean that declaring yourself the Dragon Reborn was your only option, what I meant was that it is the only alternative to make the curse of channeling into something positive for yourself.

I guess my main point is that war is war. And a personal war like Logains, isn't more wrong then a "lawful" war fought between two nations or two regents. Look at Morgase for example, she was prepared to let the Whitecloaks tyrannise her own people just so that she could get her throne back, and kick out the saviour of the world. That makes her more bad then Logain in my book. So can those people then call Logain evil? No, because that would make them hypocrites.
Matthew Smith
64. blocksmith
Sorry...may have been Elayne that unweaves the gateway...mind not where it should be and no book available. It is Wednesday after all.

My confusion does not the diminish the scene...at least not in my confused mind.
roywa
65. drothgery
Tialin @#37 - Gentling male sparkers just doesn't have much effect on the population @large, since they're a tiny percentage of men who can (potentially) channel to begin with, and the spark manifests late enough in men that many probably managed to father a child or two before going mad. The biggest effect Aes Sedai have had on the genetics of Randland is by rarely, if every, having children of their own. And even there, they miss far more 'learners' than they catch (at least, if the rebels recruiting is indicative), and probably more 'sparkers' than they find, too.

Basically, the success of the rebels' recruiting drive pretty much destroyed the culling theory, as well as the notion that 'old blood' was particularly significant. They found nearly a thousand women who could learn to channel, some with extraordinary strength, in the genetic mish-mash of rural Atlara and Murandy.

One of my big questions for the Amyrlins from the day they heard Gitara's foretelling to the day Rand proclaimed himself was why they spent so much effort trying to find the Dragon Reborn, but did none of the obvious things that would be useful for fighting and winning the last battle (like actively recruiting more girls -- which they've always known would turn up a lot more talent, encouraging Aes Sedai to have children, or engineering the destruction of the Whitecloaks).
Lily
66. Lily of the Valley
*whine* Do I have to pick?

Okay fine, I'll pick.

1) Nynaeve Healing Logain

2) Mat in the Rahad, rescuing everyone from the Gholam with his medallion.

3) Cleansing Saidin

4) Mat getting cornered by Tylin

5) "Honey in the Tea" Best. Egwene. Ever.

6) Dumai's Wells

Okay, so more than three, but I love so many moments in this series! It was hard just to narrow them down to this!
James Jones
67. jamesedjones
23 Redwing

"Given how busy they are I can't imagine it was easy to find that many sisters and put together an equitable rotating schedule...since they know they can Heal him right back whenever they want, I'm surprised more weren't arguing to gentle him again just for the sheer burden of maintaining a shield."

Maybe its a form of punishment. Say... as an alternative to being sent to the mistress of novices for *you know what*. :P
Andrew Jenson
68. Redwing
I wonder who got the "promotion" to Shielding Scheduling Coordinator? Did they send out a TPS memo? :)
Lily
69. Lily of the Valley
As for the whole "S" debate, I think it's highly effective. It's a punishment used on children. If anything, the humiliation of not only being spanked, but equating the spanking with being immature/petulant/childish is what really makes an impact.

And, for the record, I was spanked as a child. I can only remember one instance after the age of, oh, say, nine or ten where it was needed on me. Ask my family and they say I've only ever been punished in that way two or three times in my life. And I'm talking two or three good whacks, not a swat on a diapered behind. Same with my brother and sister, who are 10 and 12 respectively. I can't remember the last time either one has been spanked.

Now, paddling/slippering? Entirely different debate. There is a HUGE difference between spanking and beating bruises into skin with a hard-soled shoe, even if the parties in question equate the beating to spanking. Entiiiiirely different levels, ya'll.



Lol, Shielding Scheduling Coordinator. Was that in and of itself a punishment? "Good news! YOU get to choose who sits in on a man who could go mad at ANY SECOND! Have fun!"
Bryan Cogswell
70. shmoo
@49
"And for Darkfriends with contradictory agendas, I guess it's just not that surprising to me. After Ingtar and Carridin, it never shook me to learn that someone might actively wage war for and against the Shadow, as ridiculous as such a notion must be logistically."


It isn't all that strange considering the DO's command of letting the LoC rule. Not sure how many DarkFriends got that memo - but Taim and his friends have by the end of KOD - so we can assume some others have as well.

We've also seen some DarkFriend who have orders from more than one foresaken.

Besides these people can't quite come out and announce what they are so they have to do a bit of a dance - pleasing more than once master at once. For the BA they have to walk a tighter line since the 3 oaths don't bind them but they have to speak like they do.

But in this case D protecting Siuan only increases D's power. And just because you swore to the DO doesn't mean you can't keep your old friends.... those things aren't necessary mutually exclusive - at least at this point in the story.
Maiane Bakroeva
71. Isilel
Redwing @57:

Didn't one of the characters early on (Verin?) hypothesize that the Pattern was spinning out False Dragons since the world needed one...and that they stopped once Rand was confirmed?

We can't blame everything on the Pattern or even the Forsaken will turn out to be blameless. The way Loyal explained it, only ta'veren are truly _constrained_ by the Pattern and they constrain others around them, to certain degree.

As to the other folks, there may be room in the Pattern for them to do something... or not. So all these False Dragons, including Logain - there was room for them - more than usual, and they, being hungry for power and glory and not overburdened with scruples, gleefully jumped in. Not all of them even could channel, BTW, so there is no need for Logain to have been forced into anything for several False Dragons to turn up.

Theodor:

Andor needs to be strong and well-led to survive TG. That's Elayne's justification (and Morgase's, although she was still struggling with Compulsion and not thinking clearly). And Elayne would have stepped aside for another qualified claimant - like Dyelin.

What was Logain's justification? Unless he had a very good reason to think that he might be the DR, he was just an evil, power-hungry jerk who practically destroyed his native country because he was too craven to make one of the only 2 decent and honorable choices available to channeling men pre-Cleansing.

And BTW, I did think that Logain behaved like a jerk before he joined the BT - forcing Siuan, Leane and Min to wait on him during their journey, wanting revenge for his gentling - which yea, sucked for him, but he was a ticking bomb and caused the deaths of thousands of people, so huh?

And IMHO his desire to keep the 50 AS forcibly bonded and constantly Compelled is far from benign either. I understand that he had to capture them that way, but once he met with Rand and his AS, why not let them make the 50 swear a very carefully chosen parole and let them go?
Hilde Sørensen
73. edlihs
Tialin @ 37: Interesting idea about nobility and Aes Sadei. That would explain why wilder are so disliked. "Aspiring" nobility vs. "blue-blooded" nobility. Had not thought about that!
Jane Smyth
74. Kaboom
When I first read this chapter, I really enjoyed the part where Logain told Nyn about seeing Rand in Caemlyn and started to laugh. It finally made sense about that part in the first(?) book from Rand's perspective. At that time I had found it very bizarre that Logain was laughing. It was like closing the loop.

The tradition for shielding a man is for 6 Aes Sedais to constantly maintain an active shield, never to tie the knot. I suspect that this is a left over from a much earlier time that became one of these traditions almost stronger than law. No man in this time has any idea that is is possible to break a knotted shield. Rand needed the memories of LTT to do it. But with more influence of the Forsaken, it is surely a tradition that is becoming important again.

Regarding the ranking system in the Aes Sedai, I think that once RJ has decided to use teenagers as his Heros, he had no choice to develop this kind of hierarchy. As someone else has mention a little earlier, how else are girls of 18 or so are to have success in leading this channeling organization?
And leading they must to change their way enough to have a chance at helping Rand win TG.
John Fitzingo
75. Xandar01
@21. shmoo

What will get healed next?

Sniffles (Awful lot of it among the female gender ;)
James Jones
76. jamesedjones
71 Isilel

"And IMHO his desire to keep the 50 AS forcibly bonded and constantly Compelled is far from benign either. I understand that he had to capture them that way, but once he met with Rand and his AS, why not let them make the 50 swear a very carefully chosen parole and let them go?"

They - Came - To - Kill - You. They can't lie. The BT knows what they were about. Rands prohibition should not have applied no matter what Narishma said. The fact that Logain was all about capturing them and protecting them cements his spot as a good guy.

Why did he choose to proclaim himself? The pattern is as good a reason as any. Just because we have one power-hungry ebil false dragon only supports the argument that another one of them would declare themselves for non-selfish reasons (It's all about balance in these books). In real life, this might not be the case. But, let's face it, he might not be a flaming fly whisk but he has been written as a pretty cool - if noble - dude.
Theodor Engström
77. Theodor
@71 Isilel

Some good points, and I can agree that Logain was selfish and powerhungry, it's the evil part I'm not agreeing with. In my book Logain is both a good and cool guy. We don't really know his motives either. A Logain POV in the last book would be really cool.

And yes, Andor needs to be strong to survive TG, but can you honestly tell me that Elayne would have stepped down if TG handn't been coming? No, she would have fought for the throne anyway.
roywa
78. David M.
As for spanking in the Tower, it conforms (somewhat) to the idea that truly dangerous activities should be punished severely to make an impression. By that, I mean if a novice acts up and breaks a minor rule, they'll be sent to scrub pots. If they're doing something that might harm them, like channeling unsupervised, they get slippered. The magnitude of difference is essential to keep novices safe. Simply having them scrub pots as a punishment for doing something that may have killed them is not enough.

It may seem too severe, but in reality, it's effective. If a child won't listen, give them a time out. If they run out in the street or nearly knock a pot of boiling water on themselves, give them a spanking so they understand the severity of what they've done. This is all theoretical, of course, since I don't have any children and haven't ever had to discipline my nieces beyond the occasional stern word here and there. But I know plenty of parents and experts who subscribe to the theory.
John Fitzingo
79. Xandar01
With these two chapters of awesomeness, I would like to take a moment to remember James Rigney. There is a nice remembrance post over at 13th Depository. It's been two years today since his passing.

I am surprised the time has passed so quickly. I mourn the loss, and admire his inspiration the joins us all.
T C
80. Freelancer
Carlinya. I officially declare her the wisest Aes Sedai alive. It's one thing to not openly declare obedience to the Dragon Reborn, quite another to avoid his rage by seeing something from his point of view, instead of the Tower's.


Nynaeve gets a small taste of the cathartic result of true penitence, during the "reverse argument" with Elayne. What will she learn from this moment? Plenty, just not quickly. She learns about everything else so fast, herself SOOO SLOOOOOOWLY.


The Yellows. Hateful stack of windbags. Even in the face of proof that they are clueless about the most important issue possible for their Ajah, they insist on their superior knowledge understanding.


Siuan/Gareth. Completely believable, every last bit of it. Look at who they each were, and how they first became acquainted. Look at who and what they each are now, two field marshals out of their respective "places", and coming to terms that each has feelings for the other. Of course, neither realizes yet that the other reciprocates, therefore the stand-off, each asserting whatever authority they have as they always have.


Regarding the apparent lack of opposition to Rand's amnesty. For the general public, who is going to tell Rand anything about how they feel regarding men who channel? For the Aes Sedai, Elaida makes her feelings known quite clearly, by sending her Red Raiding party to destroy the BT. The SAS have Carlinya, as noted above, to prevent them doing something similarly moronic.


Leigh, dear Leigh. The spanking thing is getting beyond the rational, you know. You'll need to borrow Blaeric and Fen from Joline if you keep it up.


JWezy@45
Matrim bloody Cauthon is my husband...


Comparing Elayne's fight for the throne of Andor to Logain's fight for ... what?, is insane. Painting Elayne as selfish is to not have carefully read a single thing that involved her in the entire story. GABFHB.
James Jones
81. jamesedjones
80 Freelancer

"Comparing Elayne's fight for the throne of Andor to Logain's fight for ... what?, is insane."

Clever. :)
Bryan Cogswell
82. shmoo
Completely off topic -

So the PROLOGUE is comming out tomorrow. Does anyone know what time this happens? I mean at midnight - when i could sit outside with a pipe and my netbook and read? Or should i get a good night sleep so that tomorrow during work i can read it... Any ideas?
Noneo Yourbusiness
83. Longtimefan
82@shmoo,

Prolouge trumps sleeping. You had 4 years to sleep. It is WoT time! I am certain your work will be understanding if you are a few hours late. :)
Sam Mickel
84. Samadai
oops. I didn't realize I stepped into the Shadow Rising post 9. What was I thinking?
Thomas Garst
85. Garstzilla
Aes Sedai hierarchy is stupid but completely natural I think. When Aes Sedai deal with each other seeing the others person’s strength in the power is as ever present as seeing how well they are dressed, old they are and so on. So why wouldn't it come to be important in decisions. When arguing over decisions the ability of the other person to smack you down like a fly because of the difference in your power levels would certainly start to have a bearing on how stubbornly you keep to your point. It’s not laudable but it’s certainly understandable that over time these actions would become ingrained.
Also in the middle of all these discussions I have wondered whether the power adds anything to their intellect. I wonder because of things like Rand’s ability to keep that increasingly long list of names straight in his head, I am pretty sure I would have been lost after the first twenty yet his list is in the hundreds already. Other Aes Sedai seem to be able to pull off some mental tricks that don't seem to be on the usual level of the normals here but don’t seem to draw directly on the power either. I mean not that they can’t be totally stupid but that they seem to work on brain boost much of the time. What do y'all think?
Oh and one other thing, how old do you think Rand and the rest of the gang are by now.
T C
86. Freelancer
Shimrod@19

This isn't a book quote, but from Leigh's commentary. I believe the sequence is intact from the text:
Logain seems to guess what she’s thinking, and she tells herself she’s not fit to be Aes Sedai after being so witless, berating herself until the door bursts open, admitting Sheriam, Romanda, Lelaine, Myrelle, Morvrin, Delana, and a bunch more, and their stares unnerve Nynaeve so much that she loses anger and saidar, and thus the shield on Logain. Nisao, a Yellow, demands to know what’s all this nonsense about Healing Logain, and Logain pretends he doesn’t know what she’s talking about...

No saidar, no gag.


thewindrose@30
On shielding - as we learn from LTT in Rands head, if you knot the shield, a channeler can break through it, so it has to be actively maintained.
Ahh, but does Logain, or more importantly, any contemporary Aes Sedai know this? I don't think so. To the Tower, it is tradition that six sisters hold a continuous shield on a male channeler, as we'll see in a number of chapters on the way to Dumai's Wells, but I don't think they know the historical reason why they shouldn't tie off a shield.


redwing@57
Didn't one of the characters early on (Verin?) hypothesize that the Pattern was spinning out False Dragons since the world needed one...and that they stopped once Rand was confirmed?

Not handy to my books, but I believe it was Siuan, though Verin may have been involved as well. And the idea wasn't that the Pattern spun out False Dragons until the real one showed up. It was that the Pattern allowed them, but once the true Dragon Reborn declared, the Pattern had no more room for the false versions.


Blocksmith@62
I would add the chapter where Aviendha "unweaves" the gateway and absolutely annilihates the onrushing Seanchan forces as pretty significant wow moment.

Aviendha successfully unweaves the gateway from Ebou Dar to the Kin's place, where it dissipates uneventfully. It is Elayne's unweaving that goes BOOM. And the awesomest thing about that bit is Birgitte.
Maggie M
87. Eswana
Tialin @ 38
I love the 4th Age!! I haven't listened lately though; things have been crazy. But I've loved you guys practically since the beginning. So fabulous you comment here! Yay!

and to all- Brandon Sanderson just tweeted that the Powers That Be at tor have approved the title for #13... and as soon as he gets the go-ahead he'll tell us.
Tess Laird
88. thewindrose
xandar01 @79 Thank you for bringing up the 2 posts at the Thirteenth Depository by Dominic and Linda. I did have a good cry, I do so miss RJ / Mr. Jim Rigney. May he shelter in the palm of the Creator's hand.
roywa
89. Tialin
I suppose, with all this talk of Logain, that it is time once again to trot out my pet theory.

I believe that Logain is one who has been turned to the Dark One by the combination of thirteen Dreadlords (or Black Ajah) channeling through thirteen Myrddraal. He may have been a Good Guy at heart, there may still be good in him, a la Ingtar, but I just have my suspicions that when the Reds came to him and overpowered him, he was turned then and there. Possibly they got to him before then and were behind the entire false Dragon thing. How much of his rise as a false Dragon was their urging and how much his? We may never know.

It's been mentioned several times in the books that this is a weakness of those who can channel (the first time during Egwene's testing for Accepted, confirmed by Sheriam when she came out) and we are near the end and we haven't seen a confirmed case yet.

My other top candidate for being turned by the 13/13 combo : Sheriam. Someone is abusing her and giving her orders about Egwene. The beating scene reminding me instantly of Semirhage, but it could be Mesaan or even Halima.
roywa
90. Tialin
Rest in Peace
Robert Jordan / James Oliver Rigney, Jr.
October 17, 1948 - September 16, 2007

We miss you so, RJ. Thank you for touching all our lives in so many ways, and for bringing us so many hours of fun, laughter, tears, joy, frustration and enrichment.

Perhaps we will meet again. As Sulin said, if not in this life, then in another.

May the Dragon ride again on the Winds of Time.

Virginia

aka Tialin
roywa
91. Tialin
87 @ Eswana

Thanks! *blushes*

I was a big 4th Age fan before I got to be on it - what fun we have!

I've been reading along with Leigh's so cool read-through for awhile - I haven't been commenting much because I know how involved I get with these things and I just run out of hours in the day!
roywa
92. Dreamwolf
71. Isilel

Those 50 AS came with orders to still and HANG all present male channelers. To my mind the proper response wold have to immediately still and hang all 50 AS!

That he didn't do that, makes him forgiving on a Jesus level and is a clear indication that he is a good guy.

Also remember that Logain is a noble and landowner by birth. Up to WW1 in Europe, starting and participating in war for the sheer thrill of it was a accepted pastime for nobility, they were seldom the suffering parties.
Kurt Lorey
93. Shimrod
Unravels, not unweaves, IIRC.

Re: The "S" debate, part II. Today, some research was published saying that corporal punishment was a big negative for child development, or something.

Tialin,

Name an example of where Logain did something for the Dark side. If he were turned, wouldn't he and Taim be best buds?

As for Sheriam, if turned why beat her? No reason to unless she is failing to accomplish something, and IIRC she was being beaten to get information out of her.
roywa
94. DHolton
Here are some of the moments I always look forward to when I'm rereading, in no particular order:

1) Nynaeve healing stilling
Nynaeve breaking her block
2)Eqwene meeting her toh in LoC
3)Elayne coming to an adult understanding of and with Mat, and his relationship with Tylin
4)Mat whipping Gawyn and Galad
5)Perrin and Faile's "last stand" in Emond's Field
6)Rand reading Moiraine's "last" letter
7)Mat standing his ground against the gholam for Elayne
8)Rand cleansing the taint
9)Alviarin b*tch slapping Elaida when word of Dumai's Wells comes
10)(Speaking of which..) Dumai's Wells!
11)Egwene's Little Honey in the Tea
12)Narishma facing down the Hall demanding respect for Eben Hopwil's sacrifice
13)Egwene's Morning of Victory, bringing the Salidar Six to heel
14)Elayne and Aviendha's sister ceremony
15)Elayne, Aviendha and Min facing down/declaring their love for Rand and bonding him.
16)Rand going into the columns in Rhuidean/getting the Aiel past history
17)Elayne and Nyaeve trying to apol...apolog...gaah! to Mat and promising to obey him

Thoughts on Logain:
I think that Logain is set up as an actual literary (literally!) foil to Rand by RJ. We always see Logain and his actions from the outside, as we are *never* given his POV. I think this is because RJ wants us to be able see what *Rand's* actions look like to those on the outside. When you compare Logain's actions to Rand's, they're pretty similar. Both gather forces and conquer various countries, create chaos that results in large loss of life etc. Now we know how all this happened to Rand, being privy to his POV, but we don't know what or how it happened to Logain. And I don't think we will, because RJ is deliberately not giving it to us, so we have a perspective on what everything that happens with and because of Rand looks like to the outside world. Logain seems to be an effective leader, is able to show sympathy to the Athan Miere when the loss on Tremalking is discovered, yet able to stay focused on what's important, Tarmon Gaidon. Yet we don't know what his true goals are, and he doesn't share much with anyone. Sound familiar? How is any of that different from Rand's actions? (Not counting his random rages, yelling at Lews Therin etc I know, I know...) I actually kinda like Logain, although I am annoyed with him for refusing to believe Rand cleansed the taint.
Ron Garrison
95. Man-0-Manetheran
Do we think that Nynaeve might be the first to heal "death"? (Talkin' Rand here folks.)
Lily
96. Lily of the Valley
@93

Well, I certainly don't think I suffered for it.

Another awesome moment:

Just reading CoS, and got to a chapter with the Moshaine Shaido, whose perspective came from the husband of the sept roofmistress. The one line from that that got me?

Singing, the Moshaine Shaido ran to dance their deaths.


I kinda sorta hate how much I tear up at this series.
roywa
97. tailspinner
The spanking thing drives me nuts too, thanks for bringing it out, Ihope it is one of those things that Brandon quietly drops. It is a scary slope because it almost suggests that if women take all the emotional and political power away from men their only real (and apparently justified course) is corporeal punishment. It's just too close to some justifications of domestic abuse for my taste.

On a happier note though, I love this chapter,I wish we saw more siuan/bryne action.
roywa
98. Tialin
93 Shimrod

First off - it's a hunch. I have no real proof on either Logain or Sheriam being turned. Call it a crazy theory...

Second, if true, I'm thinking we are talking deep cover DFs here. If you want to get next to the Good Guys, you can't go around overtly killing babies and kicking dogs. Logain is suddenly now close to Rand. He's acting as his ambassador and being given authority and power beyond what Rand ever gave to Taim. Coincidence? Sure thing.

Logain killed a lot of people as a false Dragon, for one thing that we know about. I believe some Aes Sedai were killed in taking him, as well. Who knows what else he may have done before he appeared on the radar? It wasn't my day to watch him.

I agree with Isilel that starting wars and fighting was often a sport of the nobility, but still, I wonder. Lots of good guy nobles don't start wars for fun or profit.

"If he were turned, wouldn't he and Taim be best buds?" Nooo...I don't think so. Not if they are competing with other DFs, Dreadlords or even Forsaken for favor and power, any more than Sammael and Demandred were bosom buddies!

Don't get me wrong, I rather like Logain. I would cast David Boreanaz in his role if I could. Mmmmm! I hope he is still a Good Guy. But when I search around for highly placed and highly secret DFs in the vicinity of the three ta'veren, he suddenly becomes a prime candidate.

As for Sheriam, IIRC she was beaten because Egwene popped up with her big surprises and the person unknown laying into Sheriam was not thrilled to have been surprised, and expected to be warned of what that girl was thinking of doing before she did it in the future. Darkfriend or Forsaken, neither are known for their forbearance, forgiveness or even logical thinking at times.

Sheriam is a candidate because of the beating scenes, because she knew about the 13/13 early on when few other Aes Sedai did, according to her own comments, and because she is increasingly acting out of character since Salidar.

As I say, call this a crazy theory if you wish!

Oh, yeah, I worry about Davram Bashere, too. He can't channel so no 13/13 danger there, but Min's viewing of "something dark" around him scares me. She even says, "If he leaves or turns against you..." or something to that effect.

And right after that, Bashere goes haring off to join Rand again - along with Logain, who I presume is the man who came to Davram before his wife Deira was attacked. The one he refers to : "remember the man who came to us yesterday? Well tell him I agree, but there will be a few more coming." In that party are Aes Sedai (including known DF Elza Penfell), Asha'man, and others. Not exact quotes there, sorry, no book handy.

Perhaps I'm getting as twitchy as Rand here! DFs everywhere! Well, they have to be somewhere, don't they?
Max Espensen
99. Andvari
Perhaps it's because I'm a big, big Nynaeve fan (though I don't think you have to be to appreciate these chapters) but the Healing stilling/gentling bit is definitely in my top 5 WoT moments, and probably near the top (along with her block overcoming and Borderlands recruitment. Seriously - how can you not love her? Her charmingly hypocritical thought patterns are just an added bonus). I think it was the first time in the series I had a properly over-the-top emotional reaction, both a sense of amazement and being pleased for Nynaeve and then Siuan and Leane's reaction. Wonderful part of the series, and it's utterly fitting to have these chapters on the anniversary of RJ's death, to remind everyone of the excellence and beauty of his writing.

And yet when re-read rather well foreshadowed. Rather like, dare I say it, Nyneave insistence on death being Healed. Now you know what to look for, there is a lot of potential foreshadowing for that. And how would it tie in to Rand's "to live you first must die" prophecy? Hmm.
roywa
100. alreadymadwithawesome
I haven't read through all the posts (I can't really be arsed. There's far too much "first post!" "thanks leigh," self-congratulatory nonsense, uninteresting off-topic crap, and otherwise drivel unrelated to talking about WOT for my taste.)

...but I can't believe no one mentioned my favorite scene in all the books:

"Kneel Aes Sedai, or you will be knelt."

Gives me chills every time.

*Apologies to the people who actually contribute. I wish I could filter it out. It's what makes this a very poor forum for discussing TGS when it comes out in my opinion.
Jane Smyth
101. Kaboom
According to Sheriam's explanation it is the person's ability to channel that makes susceptible to the 13/13 turning.

So if someone is turned that way and then latter on was stilled/gentled, does this person remain turned to the dark?
Brett Michie
102. bchurch
Tialin @ 89

~but I just have my suspicions that when the Reds came to him and overpowered him, he was turned then and there. Possibly they got to him before then and were behind the entire false Dragon thing.


When was it exactly that Logain was overpowered by Reds? The whole "the Red Ajah set up Logain as a false Dragon" shtick is a lie conceived of by Siuan and perpetuated by Siuan and Logain to garner their respective revenges on Elaida and the Reds. And I'm pretty sure Logain was captured by Cadsuane, so when was it that Logain was overpowered by Reds?

I'm not trying to dispute your theory that Logain might have been turned at some point, though I'd need some strong evidence to be swayed. I'm just wondering if I missed something where Logain was in the hands of the Reds prior to his capture by Cadsuane?



And I thank you for your post @ 90.

RJ touched so many of us.

Here's to him.
William Fettes
103. Wolfmage
bchurch @ 102

"The whole "the Red Ajah set up Logain as a false Dragon" shtick is a lie conceived of by Siuan and perpetuated by Siuan and Logain to garner their respective revenges on Elaida and the Reds."

Most informed WoT commentators believe this, and I admit it is the most obvious and likely interpretation of the text. But I've read the relevant passage a number of times, and it's still possible that Siuan is referring to her ability to lie within the context of her whole speech and her being stilled - rather than being a comment directly about the Reds. The juxtaposition is suggestive but not conclusive.

Now, there are also plenty of hints it may be concocted, but as far as I know, there is never a direct incontrovertible admission from Siuan that she lied specifically about the Reds. I hold out some hope that there is a kernel in there that might be true. The Reds are almost uniformly a rotten bunch after all.

I just wanted to put that out there.
Lily
104. Lily of the Valley
I don't know if I buy that the Red Ajah set up False Dragons. It's certainly possible, and while many do seem to agree that Suian and Logain lied about it, I can't help but feel some skepticism towards that general consensus as well. I'm on the fence.

The one dirty little secret the Reds ARE hiding liekwhoa is the fact that they gentled men on the spot, without bringing them to Tar Valon, and then just LEFT them where they were to face their family/friends/neighbors, or die. Possibly both.


"In ten years, we have only found six men with the ability. Just twenty-four in the last twenty years."

...

"Twenty-four is a dangerous number to speak aloud," Alviarin said with an ominous quiet, "as dangerous as two thousand. The Chronicles record only sixteen. The last thing we need now is for those ugly years to rear up again."


A Crown of Swords, pgs 13-14, Lightnings
roywa
105. alreadymadwithlogain
True. Logain for his part has generally been consistent with the specifics of his story. Just enough to make me believe there's a kernel of truth in there somewhere. It would certainly jive with letting the Lord of Chaos rule. Personally, I don't believe he proclaimed himself Dragon Reborn out of a personal quest for glory. We don't really know the specifics after all. For all we know he found himself saddled with his own version of Masema who started proselytizing everyone in sight and antagonizing those who wouldn't listen. He might have even interpreted some events occurring around him as prophecy taking place. Who knows? We certainly are shown only the most oft quoted parts of the Karaethon Cycle. And Logain's campaign through Ghealdan was only mentioned in passing.

As for the shielding, tradition among Aes Sedai is that they must maintain the shield, and use their full strength to do so. Why is not really known among Aes Sedai. Perhaps a random Red or Brown somewhere knows (Russet Ajah anyone?) but she's not sharing.
Brett Michie
106. bchurch
Wolfmage @ 103

The relevant passage of which you refer would be, I believe:

Siuan watched them mull it over in silence The never considered the possibility that she was lying. An advantage to having been stilled. It did not seem to occur to them that being stilled might have broken all ties to the Three Oaths. Some Aes Sedai studied stilled women, true, but gingerly and reluctantly. No one wanted to be reminded of what might happen to herself.


The Fires of Heaven, The Practice of Diffidence

I agree that here she does not admit outright that she lied. She doesn't quite admit it in the next passage either, but between her and Egwene, they come close enough to put the doubt to rest in my mind.

"Don't you look at me like that, Siuan." It was easier to be angry than afraid, easy to mask fear in anger. She would never be collared like that again! "You've taken every advantage since you were freed from the Oaths. If you hadn't lied through your teeth, we'd all be in Salidar, without an army, sitting on our hands and waiting for a miracle. Well, you would be. They'd never have summoned me to be Amyrlin without your lie about Logain and the reds.(emphasis mine) Elaida would reign supreme, and in a year, nobody would remember how she usurped the Amyrlin Seat.

"I have lied when it seemed necessary," Siuan breathed. "When it seemed expedient." Her shoulders hunched , and she sounded as though she were confessing crimes she did not want to admit to herself. "Sometimes I think it's become too easy for me to decide that it's necessary and expedient. I've lied to almost everyone. Except you.(emphasis mine) But don't think it hasn't occurred to me. To nudge you toward a decision, or away from one. It wasn't wanting to keep your trust that stopped me."


The Path of Daggers,Stronger than Written Law

Now I'm not saying the Reds never set up false Dragons . . a large portion of me wants to believe that they did. But I don't think they set up Logain. I believe Siuan lied about it and got Logain to lie about it (which wouldn't be hard). All the SAS believe it for truth, so they can speak it under the three oaths.
William Fettes
107. Wolfmage
Good point, the Egwene quote is more definitive than I remembered. I was focused on the Salidar speech.
Pete Pratt
108. PeteP
A whole of lot of you seem to dislike Logain for becoming a False Dragon.

Stop a moment and put yourself in his shoes.

You are a minor noble. You suddenly begin to channel. What are you supposed to do?

1. Hide the fact for as long as possible, knowing you will go crazy soon.

2. Think that perhaps you are the Dragon Reborn.

If you are a very strong channeler, why not consider the idea that you are tDR?

Especially, if the Pattern helps you along with you choice?

So, you call yourself the DR. People in the thousands flock to your armies.

Why do people come? They are fed up with the current system and hope for change.

And then you start winning battles and defeating AS.

Does Logain entertaining the idea that he is the DR
and acting out accordingly make him evil? Wicked? Bad? Power-hungry? Maybe the last, but even that is questionable.

If you felt that you were the DR, why would you not try to do the things that the Dragon Reborn would do?

Basically, I can not view any of the False Dragons as evil men by nature or even power-hungry by nature.

Well, except for the idiots that can not channel....
Jacy Clark
109. Amalisa
Nynaeve rules! Plain and simple! Those two scenes are exactly why "Lord of Chaos" is my favorite book of the series!!

How can you be all concerned and protective of a woman of whose cause (and life, and planet) you are simultaneously plotting to destroy? Is there no cognitive dissonance there at all? Shouldn’t her head spin around or something?


Long time ago, I played a BA character on a roleplay site, and I decided to steer her away - a little - from the one-dimensional worships-the-DO-so-must-be-bad-to-the-bone stereotype. She was, instead, one who had been seduced by the Dark Si-, er, Dark One but grew to, well, worship him in the more, um, worshipful sense of the word. Complete with all of the moral twisty-turny-things to justify her actions, and allow her to show some compassion, sensitivity to others, warm fuzzies here and there. Doesn't mean she didn't kill, with relish, on occasion. And otherwise wreak havoc across the Ten Nations (our RP was set during the Trolloc Wars).

Perhaps Delana chose her affiliation with the Dark One because she didn't see any other way for the Prophecies to resolve themselves. Perhaps she still retains some of her humanity but just wants to be on what she sees as the likely winning side. People use that sort of reasoning every day, unfortunately.

In KoD, Child Byar tells Galad that he has "done dark things in service to the Light…dark as moonless midnight, and likely I will again". From that perspective, it could be argued that Delana could show some kindness toward an old friend.

Which leads me to Sheriam… I hadn't really considered whether or not she was BA until this scene. Yes, even with the foreshadowing of the Gray Man and having Egwene's papers in her hands when Eggy came out of the rings, and all of that. But when she had her arm around Siuan and "looked as though she might cry too" something clicked. I could almost hear Sheriam thinking "it was all for nothing". And Tialin@98, I also think about Sheriam's reaction to Egwene's question coming out of the rings. Perhaps she was turned by the 13/13 combination. Could have been that the question brought back unpleasant memories.

DHolton@94

Agree with you on your list (but would add Nynaeve's losing the block and the entire "Golden Crane" chapter!).

As for your assessment of Logain… nicely done! Reading your post was one of those "aha!" moments for me… :) I get so wrapped up in the story that I don't always appreciate each and every aspect of RJ's craftsmanship until someone points it out! One of the reasons why I've so enjoyed the commentaries and comments here at Tor.com!
Bryan Cogswell
110. shmoo
The Reds setting us up the dragon (all your male sparkers belong to us?)

The thing is - there is no reason why any SAS would know if the reds were setting up false dragons... in fact those are the last of the AS that would know if they were. This always struck me as one of those comments that the characters say that they KNOW is true which turns out to be completely the other way around. Ok so Eqwene and Siuan think it is lie... only, who knows, later we will find out that it is true. (ie Rand in EoTW "there are no false dragons in this town")

Besides the Reds need a purpose and what better recuriting tool...
matt
111. mattyh
re: rotating schedule for maintaining shield on logain - the tower aes sedai who kidnapped rand managed it fine, and they had far fewer than the 400 or so sisters in salidar (30 or so? i can't remember exactly).

some standout scenes for me:
the golden crane flies for TG
matrim bloody cauthon is my husband
the law (egwene's war vote)
mashiara
a breaking in the three-fold land
fire and spirit
dumai's wells
"you will do well, rand."
roywa
112. Miythrandir
I understand all the *headesk*ing in regards to the spank factor. It is onesided and degrading.

On the other hand, if someone spanked me I'd giggle like the pillsberry doughboy and probably spank back. Though I can't imagine why someone would want to spank me...maybe I should do something ultra stupid to see what I'd do for reals lol.
roywa
113. Seamus1602
Logain

I cannot believe that Logain has been turned by the 13/13. While Min's 'glory' viewing is far from proof, it does seem indicative. Also, everyone seems to discount the fact that the Dragon, while viewed by most people as next to the Dark One, has always been the prophesied Savior of the World. I'll admit it comes with some world-breaking baggage, but if you suspected that you might be the Savior of the World, would you really just walk away because a few people may die in the war? I cannot blame a male channeler for wanting and trying to be the Dragon Reborn. Prior to the BT, that was only way their lives had a chance of meaning ANYTHING.


Spanking

I can't say I'm completely comfortable with it, but I would have to say that Cadsuane's spanking of Rand in Tear, in front of Caroline Damodred and Dalin, is, by far, the most demeaning (both in intent and practice). It is far from the most painful, but I did want to point out that it does happen with a woman spanking a man, and in a far more public forum than any other throughout the series.

Red Ajah/False Dragons

I've always believed Siuan's story to be a complete lie. There has been nothing to indicate that this is not true. The Red's 'vileness' of gentling and abandoning male chanellers like Owyn seems to be their massive crime of the series (beyond being the Ajah of Elaida, Galina, and pretty much every other Red except Pevara, Keeper Tarna, and, strangely, Teslyn post-Seanchan)


50 captured AS

You go anywhere with the intent to murder people for existing, you deserve whatever fate you get. And to the original suggestion of just letting these attempted murderers go, how about Alanna letting Rand go? I can feel no sympathy towards people who become victims of their own stupidity. Especially not when the figurehead for these 50 AS is Toveine, a Red that has been in exile for almost 20 years for taking part in the aforementioned gentling/abandoning to the elements of male channelers. Really, that woman deserves to be freed from whatever punishment she gets?
Lachlan Brumley
114. leper_puppet
Tialin @ 98

Its an interesting theory, but the problem with 13/13'ing anyone comes from getting 13 DF channellers in the same place. The Forsaken won't work together and the only person they might unite to turn would be Rand. While you can drum up enough Black Ajah members to make 13, they will need to have their identities concealed from each other to maintain their internal security. This is going to complicate manners and could even prevent their participation. Liadrin's group doesn't have this problem after they've left the tower, though I think Logain's been gentled by this point. Sheriam's still a possibility although I don't see why she's important enough to bother with. Taim's special private group of Ashamen probably have plenty of time to organise some 13/13ing on their recruiting trips too, assuming they can get the know-how from a Forsaken.

Its more likely that 13/13ing is simply a plot device to make the Darkfriend channellers more scary to the main characters who won't/can't be killed off. Though it really seems odd and disappointing that it has been constantly mentioned throughout the story, yet never encountered.
roywa
115. DHolton
Amalisa@109

I thank you for the kind words on Logain.:-)

As for my list, actually I did include Nynaeve breaking her block, I just forgot to number it. It's actually #2 on the list. As for the Golden Crane..... Here's where I have to get into my problems with Nynaeve. She drives me nuts. No surprise, we've all heard it before. But, I actually do appreciate her for her humor value, and really these last two chapters with her healing stilling are right up there in my favorites in the series. Whenever I'm reading the first half of LoC, and we get to a Salidar chapter I'm thinking "is this it? is this it?"
But what upsets me most is the character arc RJ has her on. All the other SG's grow up over time. But Nynaeve's arc is a V shape! In TEOTW, she's actually a mature adult, albeit something of an angry one. Look at her first late night discussion with Lan as an example. In TGH, the calm way in which she shoos out Gawyn and Galad from the Accepted quarters is classic. But from then on she regresses to the age of six, to the point where in TFOH, she's nothing BUT comic relief. Now, as Leigh's just reviewed, she starts to grow up again, so that by the Golden Crane chapter, she's maybe reached the age of 15 and showing a little maturity. So, when I read that chapter the first time, I could see that it was an important event, was supposed to be even epic, emotionally speaking, but...it flew past me, just missing the mark. I could feel it brushing me as it went by... but it missed me. I know it struck home with others, and I understand why, but the inconsistancy of how RJ has portrayed her couldn't quite let me believe she was actually capable of starting the ball rolling on such a legend as the Golden Crane riding for Tarmon Gaidon.
sandi vogel
116. sinfulcashew
45. JWezy-et al(is that right?)

So glad all of you remember so many incidents that I have lost, as I have CRS.
I would have put a few more in if.....

But why hasn't any one mentioned Perrin questioning the Aiel?
I can't believe I'm the only one impressed with that scene. The abruptness, no waiting around, no pre-talk.
john mullen
117. johntheirishmongol
Leigh,

Cadsuane definately says she spanked three kings and two queens and she wont hesitate to spank him.

These chapters are what drives me crazy about Nynaeve. She gets to do a lot of cool stuff. Heal Logain, take and capture Moggy, but she also acts like a little girl after its all done. I can do without her hystrionics.

As for the OMG moments in the series, I mentioned a couple of chapters ago or somewhat farther back that the scene kneeling and swearing to Rand was my fave, but others are

Mat sounding the Horn of Valere
Rand drawing Callandor
Ny fight Moggy (both times)
Rand cleansing the taint
Moriane taking Lanfear
Avi and Rand go playing in the snow
Perrin calling the wolfs
Egwene being raised to Amyrlin
Suian being deposed

Those are pretty much off the top of my head.

One other thing is that I agree that the strength in the power, while being a plot device, works very well because otherwise the SG have no chance at all to effect change.

As for Logain, if he doesn't declare himself the DR, then he will be taken and stilled for everyone else's safety, which everyone knows is tantamount to a death sentence. Fighting back may ot be the optimal solution but desperation can make you try things you would not normally do. I do think Logain is a good guy, even if not a perfect guy.
William Fettes
118. Wolfmage
DHolton @ 115

"Look at her first late night discussion with Lan as an example. In TGH, the calm way in which she shoos out Gawyn and Galad from the Accepted quarters is classic. But from then on she regresses to the age of six, to the point where in TFOH, she's nothing BUT comic relief"

I still think Nynaeve is awesome and I certainly wouldn't say she's written as six years old compared to Elayne and Egwene. But I do agree with you that RJ establishes her on-screen substance in tEotW at a high level before he yo-yos her around the place in the subsequent books. Sure, she was always written as someone with room to grow; she had off-screen infamy, and we did see a combustible temper and a somewhat juvenile anger at Moiraine on-screen. But overall I felt there was plenty of evidence that she was solid, perceptive, strong and intelligent.

Unfortunately, I found RJ retreated a bit too much from that - mostly to enlarge other characters by contrast and for comic relief. Her block arc was necessary and a great literal-metaphor (does that make sense) for the fact that her anger was really a crutch. But I can't help but feel that journey could have happened with similar comic effect, whilst being a bit more generous to her character.

At times, she came close to being a walking bundle of neurosis, trotted out like a collapsible yardstick to puff up the latest formidable female character to enter the scene - such as Alise, Renaile and Cadsuane. It's like, here's Nynaeve 'the bulldozer' al'Meara - now watch her flail around impotently against this new character so we all understand just how tough these women are! And it's funny - so we'll do it over and over again. Yay.

For me, it's kinda character development on the cheap, and Nynaeve is definitely the biggest casualty of it until she finds a better equilibrium in KoD. On that score, I was happy to see her not getting beatdown by Cadsuane in Chapter 1 of tGS.
roywa
119. Landro Gaidin
About spanking:
I suggest you watch the Monthy Python clip below and let it rest :-)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=castle+anthrax&search_type=&aq=f

@108. PeteP
I agree with your reasoning and would like to add the following:

From Moriaines PoV from New Spring we know that the reds (blacks) have started a massive hunt for potential male channelers. Logain being a noble would likely have been better informed than most people and probably would have heard about this.

Now imagine that you find out you can channel and that reds will come hunting for you. He probably would have had some men at arms already and thought that having more men would give him some protection.

Somehow somebody discovers he can channel and sparks a rumour he's the DR. More people would then join him which would make the king/queen nervous and make him/her send an army at him. (Like they did with Masema later)

A likely scenario that's not much different from Rand's

Ofcourse it's possible that he was converted by the 13/13 thing and then freed from it by being severed (as it affects only channelers) but I don't believe so.


Another of my favorite moments is Ingtar in Falme. When he finds out Rand is the DR, he confesses his sins to Rand and then sacrifices all to let Rand escape and by doing so achieving salvation.
James Jones
120. jamesedjones
116 sinfulcashew

Agreed. Perrin questioning the Shaido is an awesome scene. He's always been portrayed as the character that studies people and situations until he finds that one small piece that, with a simple shift, unlocks the puzzle. But this is the part where he demonstrates that he can do it with anything, even better than the folks (Sulin) who are actually part of that culture.

Oh yeah, the 'wash the spears' part when Rand arrives at the Golden Bowl should be on my list of great scenes.

Re: the Logain lie

I've always thought Suian was lying, but telling the absolute truth that she is just unaware of. In tDR Elayne notes that all of the BA sisters that left the tower prevent any identification of a trend. The most likely trend would be the Red Ajah. It is my unfounded belief that the BA Reds have been setting up false dragons whenever they could find one willing to go along with the plan. This would also explain why they just gentled the extra eight male channelers on the spot (24 minus 16). Of course, they would give the non-BA Reds and the Aes Sedai higher ups the 'party line' of we just did it because it was expedient, and we should probably leave it out of the histories.
Thomas Keith
122. insectoid
JEJ @121:
YES it is!
What the Storm Means

More on the post later, need to rest brain.
Roger Powell
123. forkroot
There are so many favorite moments that it's hard to pick a favorite, but I have to go with Rand confessing his love to Avi, Elayne, and Min. What makes that scene so special is that the normally unflappable Lan is seriously knocked off his pins.

Another favorite moment is Rand hanging on to Lan on the roof in Far Madding. Lan tells him to let go and Rand replies "When the sun turns green". This little confirmation of the "male bond" between Rand and Lan always gives me a throat lump moment.

Third on the list is Avi and Elayne's near sister ceremony. I guess I'm just an old softie.

(Still loving it here in Hawaii)
Maiane Bakroeva
124. Isilel
Dreamwolf:

To my mind the proper response wold have to immediately still and hang all 50 AS!

Don't go into diplomatic service or politics, please ;)!
First, Rand's order forbade this. And second - for men to purposefully learn to channel used to be a crime until very recently. Of the worst kind. And with an excellent reason. Male channelers destroyed the world, you know. And they do inevitably go mad and kill/hurt people around them. They put down people in the BT all the time and it seems to provoke no outrage or retaliation.

Also, Logain himself caused deaths of thousands, AS among them and was let go by Egwene, so he is simply reciprocating.

Anyway, saidin is cleansed now and I see no reason why keeping the 50 enslaved for life is in any way a good idea. They can't break pledges - make them swear a well-worded pledge and be done with it.

starting and participating in war for the sheer thrill of it was a accepted pastime for nobility

Right. So Forsaken are nature's nobility, then? Seriously, going by this argument nobody can be evil in WoT, including teh DO. They are just amusing themselves and folks should suck up collateral damage.

@108 PeteP:

You are a minor noble. You suddenly begin to channel. What are you supposed to do?

Not be a coward and do what needs to be done? Tough break, yes, but certainly not an excuse to spread the misery and kill thousands of people.

Why _should_ a random male channeler sincerely think that he is the DR? They know quite well that there are many male channelers, but only one DR. And for an educated man like Logain there is even less excuse than for some peasant without access to a copy of the Prophecies.

Unless he had reason to think that he was born on the slopes of the Dragonmount, that is. Or maybe Ishy sent him some seemingly prophetic dreams with the suggestion.

Yes, IMHO the majority of False Dragons were evil, powerhungry and/or mad. The rest were probably manipulated by Ishy in hopes that enough terrible False Dragons will discredit the idea of DR and make it more difficult for the real one when he comes.

If somebody had a terrible, contagious illness, would we try to excuse them if they attempted to infect as many as possible in hopes that it would produce a miracle? Or if they hid from the quarantine, endangering other people?

Yes, severing is horrible, but as we have seen with Setalle Anan it _is_ survivable. And the alternative was for the guys to go mad and to kill innocents.

Re: Reds and false Dragons, not only did Siuan lie, but we have had enough Red POVs by the end of KoD, including that of the head Read/Black who certainly would have known, to dismiss this as fabrication. At least as far as events during a few decades prior to the beginning of the series are concerned.
roywa
126. Dr. Thanatos
Late post...

Regarding the "S" word: perhaps a more appropriate punishment the AS could dole out
James Jones
127. jamesedjones
124 Isilel

"Re: Reds and false Dragons, not only did Siuan lie, but we have had enough Red POVs by the end of KoD, including that of the head Read/Black who certainly would have known, to dismiss this as fabrication. At least as far as events during a few decades prior to the beginning of the series are concerned."

There is absolutely nothing from Galina's POV to dismiss this possibility. The black ajah would be a joke if they hadn't actually been part of Ishy's manipulations of the false dragons. I'm not suggesting that the Reds did this for glory (which is Suian's story). I'm suggesting that the Red/Black sisters did this to further their own goals. It makes too much sense for anyone to dismiss.
Maiane Bakroeva
128. Isilel
What I think Red/Blacks did was to tell Ishy about any male sparkers they got a lead on and Ishy visited them in their dreams with a recruitment pitch and/or sent Taim.

IMHO, it is incredibly suspicious that only 6 were found in the last decade (and 16 in the previous one, despite the murder spree directed at lucky men and the Aiel War that must have taken out some too). The rest of them are among Taim's pets, I am sure or maybe training up the Sharan Ayyad boys.

Re: Galina, we had a decent amount of her POVs where she thought back on momentous things she had done, like ordering a king and a queen killed, torturing Tamra and Siuan, etc. Surely setting up a False Dragon should have been in the same category? And there should have been some hints to that effect in her POV during interactions with Rand and Perrin's Ashaman too.
Joseph Blaidd
129. SteelBlaidd
Prolouge is OUT!!!

Many things made more clear, a few new view points, some nice preparation and resolution, and a couple of moments of pure Win.
This will be... Interesting.
Scott
130. Shard
I think it is entirely possible that Tylin spanked Mat. I mean she trussed him up in pink ribbons, had his clothes burned and treated him like some naughty play thing. I guess I don't really see spanking as degrading especially when some characters and RL people are into that sort of thing. Mat however was humiliated and emasculated by Tylin.

I guess it's also easy to ignore the spanking when Jordan barely even mentions it, maybe one line or so and that's again easy to miss when reading.
Vecki
131. vecki
Ok, just downloaded the prologue.

Not going to give any spoilers, but I threw my hands up in the air and did a dance in my seat at the end of it. All I can say on that final section... ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME!

And on this chapter... Nyn rocks my socks. That is all.
Hurin Smells
132. HurinSmells
My favourite WoT moments apart from the obvious major milestones (not ranked, they're all so good!)...

- Lan preparing Rand to meet Siuan (and pretty much any time Lan says 'Tai'shar ...')
- Egwene getting unleashed
- Mat takes down Gawyn and Galad in the Gaidin training yard
- Perrin yelling "Rally to me!" in the Two Rivers
- Perrin in the Winespring inn after finding out his family has been wiped out
- Perrin cuts off the Shaido's hand
- Rand escapes from the exploding box after managing to still the Aes Sedai holding his shield
- Birgette/Avi/Elayne and the unravelling gateway
- Elaida slapping Alviarin finally!

plus many, many more!
John Massey
133. subwoofer
And I'm back... Hi Leigh! Good times had by all. So... Yay for Ny- Elayne had her moment too, but I did forgive her for blathering on in front of too many AS. Done the same myself. And yes, I do not keep track of AS names- just background noise for me, and then RJ has this way of some names sounding similar.

RJ linking Logain's vision to way back when in the books show's his awesomeness to have such a line in and then connect it several thousand pages later.

One commenter made a good point about ranking by power helpin' the yunguns. No way they would of got cred otherwise. Was thinking about the whole scenario and things could happen here. First off, the legit Amyrlin is Eggy. Eggy was WO trained and the Grand Poobah of the WO is Sorilea, weak in the power but strong in will. The Kin are coming into the Tower and Eggy opened the Novice book again. This could be the sign of things to come.


Favorite scenes... too many to choose from. Scenes where Loial was made of awesome were good- him saving Gaul. Matster- "She's my wife"- famous last words... Rand's exchanges with the Aiel regarding Aiel and Wetlander humor. Herid Fel- don't bring the girl, she's too pretty. And of course-
"The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'don"


Bar none. Loved that. Sign of whoop ass to come.

Woof.
Bryan Cogswell
134. shmoo
@ 131

Amen. And in order to avoid spoilers... eh... Amen.
Marcus W
135. toryx
Isilel @ 124:

Why _should_ a random male channeler sincerely think that he is the DR?

Because it's the only chance a guy who has discovered he can channel has. All the other options are worse ones. That sort of desperation is reason enough for all kinds of leaps of faith.
Ian Horn
136. IanGH
Awesome recap!

RE: Reds and dragons. Clearly Siuan's story of the Red Ajah setting up Logain as a false dragon is untrue. On the other hand, Moiraine has given Tom a list of Red Ajah sisters who inappropriately gentled his nephew and seemed to think that there was something that Tom could do about those people. If there were nefarious deeds done by Tom's nephew, it stands to reason that they may not have been on the up-and-up with respect to Logain, either.

And about Logain claiming to be the Dragon Reborn, as we heard many times at the beginning of the series, the pattern demanded a Dragon so false dragons would keep appearing until Rand proclaimed himself. That's not to eliminate his responsibility for his actions, just to explain them.

RE: Spanking. I subscribed to the spanking as general corporeal punishment and so is acceptable in Randland opinion. On the other hand, I can see your point, Leigh, that it is only women who are actually turned over the knee. All I can say, is that seeing a man wail on a woman the way the maidens did to Rand would just be ugly. Perhaps this is because there appears to be just a smidgen of chivalry left in me somewhere? I'll see what I can do to get rid of that. (Or better yet, how about the grown-ups in Randland begin behaving like adults and talk to each other for once rather than smacking each other around like the Three Stooges.)

RE: Nynaeve. This reread has given me a whole new appreciation of Nynaeve, thanks to Leigh's comments. Nynaeve has been so annoying these last few books (I thought she was awesome in the first two) but here she starts to redeem herself.
Birgit
137. birgit
Given how busy they are I can't imagine it was easy to find that many sisters and put together an equitable rotating schedule

Before Siuan came they just pretended to be busy, and even when Eg became Amyrlin, many still wanted to sit in Salidar and wait for a miracle that makes the Tower whole again.

Basically, the success of the rebels' recruiting drive pretty much destroyed the culling theory, as well as the notion that 'old blood' was particularly significant.

They find many novices compared to when they were not looking, but it is still a small percentage of the whole population.

And I'm pretty sure Logain was captured by Cadsuane, so when was it that Logain was overpowered by Reds?

Cadsuane chased both Taim and Logain, but she wasn't necessarily involved in catching them.
Matthew Smith
138. blocksmith
Eswana @ 26

Thank you for the warm welcome.

MasterAlThor @ 56

Great additional explanation...my point exactly. Also, there is a male gaishain that is repeatedly...ah...beaten by Sevanna/Therava in KOD. Not the perfect example but my recollection is that the beating is fairly severe and based on nothing more than not pleasing Sevanna adequately.

alreadymadwithawesome @100

While I do not agree with your sentiments as I think just about every poster has added something to the discussion, I completely agree with your event selection. The "Kneel or you will be Knelt" gave me chills. I think most people include it with the entire Dumai's Wells sequence; Rand obliterating the shield (and stilling three AS...btw, first "stilling" on camera in the series)and the box, Sevanna attacking the AS, Perrin and Co. attacking Sevanna and the AS, Ashaman showing up, Ashaman rolling earth and fire, Kneel!
Leigh Butler
139. leighdb
Hi guys,

The intro of this post has been edited for current events, take a look! *points up*
Sam Mickel
140. Samadai
Prologue is awesome. just had to say it.
Bill Reamy
141. BillinHI
Re: Male AS breaking the world: I would suggest that the male AS were only the tool that broke the world. If not for the DO's taint on Saidin, it would never have happened.

While the Red Ajah is guilty of many things, I don't think there is conclusive evidence that they deliberately set up Logain or any other False Dragons. Not sayin' it didn't happen, just no direct evidence. And didn't the evilness after the Aiel War include killing any young boy who was extraordinarily lucky? And that would have been before they could channel, even if they were sparkers.
Rich Gold
142. richg25
drothgery@65 - One of my big questions for the Amyrlins from the day they heard Gitara's foretelling ...

Did Moiraine and Siuan share that info with anyone else? I don't recall.
Hugh Hill
143. ghenjei
Am I the only one that keeps snickering at the LOC cover after 13 years, remembering the old "Passion of the Aes Sedai" moniker?

just askin
roywa
144. CBeats
"You get out of here, and take your vile-tasting soup with you!” Less than half the vile-tasting soup remained, and it was a big bowl."

One of my favourite lines in the series, and one that I've remembered since the first time I read Lord of Chaos.

Classic!
Francesco Paonessa
145. ErrantKnave
Appropos of absolutely nothing, you know Thom's line about Nynaeve dabbling her fingers in tea? While that line makes me snicker every single time, how did Nyn let Tom say the whole thing without interrupting/stalking away/tugging her braid/channeling him to oblivion? Think about it. Have you ever tried to say something suitably tongue-in-cheek to someone as angry as Nyn? More importantly, has that person ever let you finish your ha-ha comment? I don't think so.

THIS is the kind of stuff I think of on non-post days. What did I do before WoT re-reads? Hmmm... how about we don't answer that question.
Rob Munnelly
146. RobMRobM
Technical question re the prologue - since I don't have a reader (Kindle, etc.), what do I do? will it work on a regular computer?

Thanks. Non-techie (aka Rob)
Kristina Blake
147. kab1
Rob- It will work on a regular computer, just check the site that you are downloading from. Most offer a free downloadable ebook reader. Some sites may just offer a pdf download, but I'm not sure.
Ron Garrison
148. Man-0-Manetheran
I have a hard time believing Logain to be a DF. Even if 13/13'd beforehand, once he was stilled (and severed from the power) he became an empty shell. Being healed by Nynaeve would seem to be pretty powerful in turning him back to the light.

@ leper_puppet: Superb analytics on "the problem with 13/13'ing anyone"! As I recall, each member of the BA only knows one or two others.

Nynaeve - World of awesome! Totally my favorite character. And her flaws? If she didn't have such big ones, her character wouldn't be believable and, frankly, not nearly as likeable.
Eric Hughes
149. CireNaes
Strength in the Power determining ranking...call me crazy, but I think that this was going on even in the AoL. Strength in the power directly determines how many flows you can handle at once and even whether you can or cannot do certain weaves. At times when a channeler is observing another stronger channeler working it marvels them at how many flows they are handling at once and the complexity at which they are doing it. So in the AoL I will theorize that it was natural to defer to someone of greater strength in the context of work to be done (they were just people who had an ability to work in a certain fashion for the greater good) because they may be the only one of a few who were able to perform the task in the first place or they can perform it better than you could. Like so many things (i.e. holding the shield with a minimum of 6 in a certain way) the prior reason was forgotten or mutated to the point of detriment. The big difference is that in the AoL there were ways to earn a place in high society with other skills or abilities that you might possess and get your third name. It is just that as a strong channeler you have more of a chance of doing something truly great like Semirhage's ability to heal what was thought to be impossible (albeit for a sick price). That's my best guess. Just another thing from the AoL that was contextually stretched farther than it was supposed to be.
Rob Munnelly
150. RobMRobM
kab1 - thanks. Do you get to save it permanently or is there some kind of limitation?
Ian Horn
151. IanGH
RE: Aes Sedai hierarchy. Fashioning a hierarchy based on strength in the one power is not more arbitrary than Elayne claiming the right to the throne of Andor because her mother was there before her. We don't deny her right to the throne. (OK, there is a sizable anti-Elayne group here, but still.)

That said, I agree with the comments that the Aes Sedai hierarchy is too rigidly enforced. It appears to be based on a loose set of rules for everyday etiquette that has ossified into a rigid hierarchy. I prefer the way the Wise Ones set their hierarchy.

RE: Culling the ability to channel. I don't remember if Rand ever had the opinion that the Aes Sedai were culling the ability to channel from the human race. Certainly, several Aes Sedai have expressed that opinion. Rand did make a good point one time back on the farm (pre Black Tower) that he felt the Aes Sedai were mistaken by walling themselves off from the world. He wanted the Asha'man to have families and have a stake in saving the world. That was one of the better thoughts that I've seen from Rand.
Sam Mickel
152. Samadai
RobMRobM @150

you keep it permanently. i downloaded the ereader and thebook straight to my pc andread it from there andit is stillon my laptop.
D Z
153. Hopper
Another question about downloading the prologue...

If I download it onto my computer at work, can I email it to myself so that I can read it on my laptop at home as well?


...not that I would ever consider reading it at work ;)
John Massey
154. subwoofer
I am sure everybody has abandoned this to talk about the prologue, I'll deal with that later- but I wanted to talk about the looming chapters in regards to furthering my thoughts vis a vis Ny's outburst and how accurate it was. Other than calling her out for stepping out of line, the sentiment still remains about the fact that there are many meetings but not much resolution. Sounds like how large corps problem solve.

The SAS really got on my nerves for that. In the up coming chapters they really start to grind on me with their treatment of Ny and how it seems like Ny is doing everything and these ladies are just sitting back and using her. Damn people, figure some stuff out for yourselves!

The SAS are all full sisters for however many years, what has been going on? Not to mention the other Sisters in the Tower. There is much talk about things being lost since AoL so... what gives? Why are these girls of 20+ years figuring things out( and I do mean beyond what MOGGIE tells them) like Healing Stilling and none of these full Sisters are doing squat?- um beyond Suian's and Moraine's plan everyone else seems to be s#!%ing the bed.

Just sayin'.

Woof.
Tyler Durden
155. Balance
How about a few oldies...

Sword in the Stone. The last battle with Ishy. Mo nuking Bel, then calmly speaking with Rand.

Sounding the Horn. Igtar's sacrifice.

Mo facing the three Fades before SL.

I always had a feeling Nyn would heal Logain. I couldn't see where the plot would go from just her fiddling with him.

BTW I think Logain is supposed to be a story of rendemption. Bad man proclaimed a False Dragon. Channelled evil, killed people, blah blah blah. Punished, gentled, almost dead. Given a second chance, and viola there's glory at the end.
Eric Hughes
156. CireNaes
subwoofer,

You're absolutely right, their isolationism and hoarding of knowledge at the personal and at the Ajah level has limited the scope of what they are capable of as a society. This was aptly pointed out previously, but I still think that the strength issue is also a predominant factor in what you think is possible AND what you can actually do with the one power. I believe that as a general rule those who are stronger are generally more talented wielders of the one power because of this very reason. Not to say that a weaker individual is still not a potent or valuable asset, just that their scope of ability is somewhat challenged.
T C
157. Freelancer
subwoofer

Not to excuse them, because I surely do not. You know how military training is supposed to work, compared to how it really does work. Something similar is at play here.

Military training and mechanisms are meant, in part, to identify those with the best leadership and command potential. Within that, it is up to those leaders to identify whom, among their subordinates, has which strengths and weaknesses for the professional tasks assigned them. However, humans being the vain things they are, what more often happens is that semi-competent leaders end up identifying those who are both no threat to them, and with whom they share the most traits, good or bad, for grooming to leadership. At the same time, those with the greatest abilities are locked into the worker roles, where they can keep their semi-competent superior looking good and having no opportunity to take his job.

In other words, it is at the mercy of the integrity (or lack thereof) of those in authority.


I see the same with Aes Sedai. Over the years, all these "traditions" and "customs" arise, many of them designed to prevent excellence from rising to the top, punishing those most likely to be capable of discovery and enhancement of what is already known. The end result is that what is known today, is treated as all that is and can be knowable.

At the same time, it is mentioned in several places that those sisters who learn when and how to cicumvent tradition, custom, rule, and even law for a good enough reason are also those most likely to become effective leaders (Sitters, Amyrlins, Ajah heads). But sadly, that thinking doesn't ever carry over into the actual working with Power business.
roywa
158. alreadymadwithlostweaves
Stronger potential also equates to having more reserves of the Power to experiment with. Stronger channelers can be more wasteful with experimental weaves. Not to mention that a lot of the lost skills also required strength in the Power to be useful.
T C
159. Freelancer
amw@158

Indeed, let us not forget that Aes Sedai have been noticing for a long time both that Saidar itself is apparently weakening, and that the median strength of channelers has fallen. Cadsuane's comments in New Spring are quite clear on the second point.
John Massey
160. subwoofer
@Free- I absolutely agree with you. Shocker;)- but your military analogy was spot on. Had a Leau who took much of the credit for some of us Non-coms because we were assigned to his command... grrrr. It does parallel nicely with AS. They did bring this on themselves though. Maybe as Sisters got weaker in the power somebody should of stopped and said: "wait a tick- what are we doing wrong here?"- as per IanHG Anyways- the Supergirls will set that straight.

@Hurinsmells132- yes the Rand scene- reminds me of 4:12 of this movie.

The prologue- I'm goin' hardcore and holding out for the book. This reminds me of certain companies releasing a DVD for the masses then just before Christmas coming out with the special extended edition. I've played that game before. meh.

edit @.CireNaes - I said that? Well I suppose so, but more cred given to IanHG and Isilel. It just rankles me when somebody is doing well, then they are called down and held back because of it. It is like succeeding in spite of people as opposed to succeeding with the help of those around you. And back to my thing about Sorilea. Weak in the power, yet a will of steel. Eggy is going to stand that whole concept on its head because of Sorilea. There are other things- diplomacy, leadership etc. that would be helpful. It is like the biggest thug being king because he is the biggest thug. No relation to talent, intelligence or leadership ability. Just a big lug. meh.

Woof.
Lily
161. Lily of the Valley
On culling:

I don't think it holds much water, given there are anywhere between 4,000 and 9,000 female channelers, if not more. That's a low-ball estimate, I'm thinking.

1000 Aes Sedai
1000 Kin
1000 novices/Accepted the SAS have found
There are 400 Shaido Wise Ones who can channel, so assuming they have an average compared to the other 11 Clans...
The unknown number of channeling Windfinders
Unknown number of damane/sul'dam in the Seanchan Empire.

I think, personally, the culling theory is busted. I believe the decrease in Tower numbers is partially due to their own withdrawal, which would limit the number of parties of sisters who go out to look for more women who can channel, the age restrictions, and the dislike of "wilders".

Oh, and I'm also holding out for the book. :-) It's gonna kill me, but I'm refraining.
Joseph Blaidd
162. SteelBlaidd
Ummm Lilly at the age of legends standard of 3% channelers that's only 300,000 Aiel altogether( Men Women and Children). This assumes the number of male channelers is equal to the number of female and that the death-rate is equivalent between female channelers and non-channelers.

Assuming that the known Westland female channelers are roughly half of the possible female channelers the AOL number gets us 400,000 people in the whole area west of the Dragonwall. The Band is 24,000 by it self so Unless you think that one eighth of the population is marching behind Mat Cuthon (Rodel Iterude leads at least 300,000 men just by himself).
Alice Arneson
163. Wetlandernw
Ummm. I just like to point out that the word is corporal, not corporeal. Only the archaic usage is the same; modern usage is "corporal punishment". Of course, by now there are over 160 comments, most using "corporeal"... And I've slogged through them all. *sigh* (Thanks to the one who got it right!) And as several have pointed out, men don't get spanked very often; they get beaten instead. At least the spankings usually happen in private!

Eswana @26 - ... I've worried that at some point, Siuan is going to get caught in her lie and everyone will know that she and Leane are not bound by the Oaths anymore- which will throw everything she's done since arriving in Salidar into question, possibly even up to and including Egwene selection as Amrylin (remember it was Siuan & Leane's manipulation that led to the Salidar Hall choosing Egwene.)

It might throw some things into question, but I don't think it will affect Egwene's selection. That had to be done by the Hall, and I don't think they'd be willing to admit that they were manipulated into it by Siuan. Some might grumble in their thoughts, but I doubt any would say it out loud, even to her best friend.

Lsana @ 55 - ... "declaring himself" must have almost certainly involved him attacking something and demanding that they kneel to him as the DR. Uh, why? I don't see it. Lots of people will be drawn to someone who can do miracles, and with enough people thinking he's all that, maybe he didn't see any need to argue the point. Until the true DR comes, no one knows what it looks like, so why couldn't it be him?

Isilel @ 71 - ...his desire to keep the 50 AS forcibly bonded and constantly Compelled is far from benign either. I understand that he had to capture them that way, but once he met with Rand and his AS, why not let them make the 50 swear a very carefully chosen parole and let them go? Don't forget that they may not have known how to release a bond. They couldn't even figure out a way to create the bond without kissing the woman, so who knows what else they didn't know about it?

Shimrod @ 93 - Today, some research was published saying that corporal punishment was a big negative for child development, or something. Meh. Whatever is PC gets proven by research. You know the old saying "lies, damn lies and statistics"? Or the one that says you can make statistics prove anything you want? "Published research," especially in something as subjective as this, is meaningless; they "prove" what they believed in the first place.

Kaboom @ 101 - Yes. It can only be done to channelers, but it's a permanent character change.
stefan warsink
164. grubber
just to be at the active end of this whole thing:
just started reading up on your re-read, and I am thoroughly impressed and entertained!
thank you very much, this will cause a lot of slacking off on my part.

@163 (just because that is the bottom one while I'm typing): another quote is "76.3% of statistics are made up on the spot".

I'll try to catch up on y'all!
roywa
165. Stone Dog
I think Nynaeve doesn't explore her discovery far enough. Perhaps it is possible that everyone has the means to channel but most people are born without the necessary connection, just like a stilled or gentled person.
An analogy might be a blind person, who still has eyes but they don't function - and in some cases surgery can help.
It would be interesting if Nyn were to try it out on somebody who has never channelled.
R B
166. MasterAlThor
Ok favorite scenes

Dumai Wells: Exploding box, Kneeling Aes Sadai All you could ever want

Rand "So I am loved": I was at a dark point in my life when I read that. It stuck.

Cleansing the Taint: It sounds dirty, but it was MoA

Lan practicing at lightspeed: Really ppl, how could you not like it? Other Warders stopped pretending they were doing something else. Mat could have pinched any Aes Sadai he wanted and walked away.

Mat getting a taste of his own medicine: Tylin just handles him. He deserved it.

The Aiel not understanding Rand's joke: LOL funny. Rand's joke was bad, but the Aiel reaction to it made me wipe tears

I am pretty sure there are others, but I can't think of them right now.

Can someone please explain to me what it so freaking awesome about The Golden Crane? I have read the chapter and I see it as contrived on Nyns part. It really came out of left field for me. Did I miss the signpost? What made her decide that today is a good day to send my husband on a quest that may get him killed? I like the reactions of the other Malkeiri (sorry for misspell). I just don't get her motivations.
R B
167. MasterAlThor
Egads!!!!

I am sooooooo stooooppppiiiiidddddd.

Wetlandernw and Thewindrose....

I just figured out the meaning behind your handles
aaaaaagggggghhhhhhh

Good pun wetlandernw....northwest....Seattle
ugh....should have seen that. How many times have you said that you and your husband live there.

And as many times as I read these flammin books, tell me why I didn't see at the start of every bloody book. The wind rose.

I quit...I am going to bed and will wake up tomorrow. Maybe
John Massey
168. subwoofer
Dude- forever- ie since before Moiraine died, Lan has been chomping at the bit to go to the Gap etc. In past books it has even said by Agelmar that with Lan going there would be at least worth 1000 extra lances.

Now Lan is going, and not just as a warder, but as the last uncrowned King and true Blade of Malkier. It is like finally! some of the borderland will be taken back. Enough is enough with the war with the Shadow.

Ny didn't let her husband wonder off to become cannon fodder- she gave him all the tools he will need- it'll be like the Mustering of Rohan.

Full of awesome!

'Course, maybe its just me.

Woof.
Maiane Bakroeva
169. Isilel
Umm, I don't think that Lan seriously intends to re-gain Malkier. He just feels, correctly, that the first direct move once Tarmon Gaidon starts openly would be at Tarwin's Gap and the Borderland armies are far away. So, what he intends is reconaissance. Nyn turns it into reconaissance in force ;).

Hopefully, she'll be able to join him in time and drum up additional channeler support.

@149 CireNaes:

Actually I think that in AoL strength in OP was less important, with *angreal and circles being freely available. Talents and skill had more bearing, I'll wager.
It is only when the War of Shadow began that individual OP power and ability to function without a support structure became an issue.

And in fact we know that quite a few Forsaken didn't have high social standing or standing in the Hall of Servants despite being very strong in the Power. I mean, Lanfear was the strongest woman evar and wasn't considered deserving of the third name.

Re: the Third Age, while it seems initally that strength and skill go hand in hand, that turns out not to be the case.
For instance, that one Kinswoman had developed Nyn-style Healing independantly and does it better than Nyn despite being just normal AS-strength.

In fact, all Kinswomen who can Heal, Heal much better than their power level suggests because when they have their stint in Ebu Dar they have to do it very frequently.

Also, there is that one Kinswoman with a Shielding Talent, etc.

And of course a completely unremarkable AS invents the method of detecting flows of saidin - something the AoLers thought to be impossible!

So, IMHO the OP hierarchy just hampers creativity and sharing of knowledge among the AS and generally hamstrings the WT effectiveness.

Generals and officers aren't chosen on the basis of their physical strength, after all, although it can be helpful. Nor is strength a reliable indicator of who would win a physical duel to the death.

If OP strength had been just one of the factors of the AS hierarchy it would have made sense, but as it is...

And I do think that SGs getting in position could have worked if strength was just one of the factors.
I mean, Egwene as a puppet child-Amyrlin still would have made sense and her appointing Nyn and Elayne as her representatives ditto. They would have had strength, achievement in form of discoveries and brushes with Seanchan, FS and BA to their credit, as well as their own leadership abilities and Egs backing.
They could have made the 5 Ebu Dari AS follow without the rigid strength hierarchy.

@ 135 Toryx

Because it's the only chance a guy who has discovered he can channel has.

The Dragon Reborn is still supposed to die, so what chance is that? And to Break the World again in the process.

People who jump at being False Dragons are clearly those who don't mind causing tons of destruction and death as long as they get some power for as long as it lasts, everything else (including Prophecies) be damned.

Also, maybe somebody who has just started to channel unconsciously could bear living in a stedding.
That would be more of a chance for somebody who is too cowardly to do the right thing about it.

I mean, yes, being a male channeler used to suck in WoT. But so does having a mortal illness. Neither is an excuse to go on a murder spree, surely. At least without very good evidence that you are indeed the prophecized Saviour.
Tess Laird
170. thewindrose
Hey MasterAlThor-
Yes there does seem to be a wind rising in each book:)
The Golden Crane. Wouldn't you agree that it is awesome whenever Lan says Tai'shar? From this,I get the overwhelming feeling of how important Lan feels the ties to home are. Nyn showing her courage, intelligence makes Lan say Tai'shar Manetheren to her. He is Malkier. He put aside his one man war for Moiraine, and continues to do so for Nyn, but it is eating him up inside. Nyn realizes this, and 'lets him go' to do what he needs to do. She knows that she needs to stay with Rand, but also knows Lan needs to go and put paid to the dark-side for what has been done to his home, his heart and soul. Many, including me just see the MoA of this, we know Lan and Nyn love each other, but Nyn is doing the ultimate - if you love someone set them free, and Lan needs to do this.
(also what sub said:)

Strength in Power being a factor on people listening to you. I agree with those that said, would anyone have listened to the SG's otherwise.
Lily
171. Lily of the Valley
@162

I couldn't really understand what you were saying. Please clarify?
Helen Peters
172. Helen
Love these chapters, they have everything, drama, tears, comedy, romance and a new baddie appearing. Great recap Leigh, keep up the good work.


47. sps49
Will Egwene be intended as a placeholder Amyrlin, similar to the extra Hall members?

I reckon that was their intent, and the spare (yellow, green, cannot remember her ajah) sitter, Romanda, would be offered the Amyrlin seat.


Sorry if I'm dredging up old history, but is Anaiya black ajah? It was her that told off the novice to take Halima to Delana, or did Halima turn up asking for Delana?
Marcus W
173. toryx
Isilel @ 169:

I think it's fair to say that most people, male or female, when given the choice of whether to die today or die tomorrow would pick tomorrow. A lot of them would make that choice at almost any cost.

Sure, there's the whole breaking of the world deal and the deaths that come with armies but most people didn't seem to know all that much of the Prophecies execept for the big points, like taking the Stone of Tear. If there's no clear way to figure out for sure if a man is the One without trying...well, it's another choice that isn't a choice. Kill a few people, risk breaking the world, or end the world by not being there for the Last Battle.

Arrogance does indeed play a part in it, but I can't blame a guy grasping at straws when he discovers he can channel. It's not good for anyone, but if the Dragon had been reborn and decided not to embrace his destiny because he was unsure or scared of breaking the world, everyone suffers. What man in his right mind would take that risk?
Pete Pratt
174. PeteP
One thing about the whole "strength in the power" thing -- the other groups of female channlers (the Wise Ones, the Kin, and the Windfinders) think it is insane.

RJ kept putting in PoVs and statements questioning the very basis of the White Tower.

I think he thought it was a bad way of doing it and is one of the many reasons the AS are having serious issues.

MasterAlThor -- as stated above, "the Golden Crane" is all about love. Nynaeve loves Lan fiercely, but also wants to help him reach his greatest potential. Lan has given up everything he could be to serve Moiraine, and then his love guided him to support Nynaeve. Nynaeve knows that Lan would rather be up at the Blight preparing for the Last Battle then just hanging around her. Nynaeve also knows that Lan would not reach his greatness (leading men into the Blight, etc.) without her help. Nynaeve loves Lan so much that she is doing all that she can to help him finally be the King he has always refused to be.

Again, this single chapter completely changed me around on Nynaeve. As irritating as she can be, she is a wonderful person with great capacity to do what is right (when she finally gets around to letting herself see it).
Tess Laird
175. thewindrose
Two other thoughts: I am not going to read the prologue - I would find it too hard to comment here and not use that knowelge, and also I want to read the whole book in one sitting:) - so I am going to wait.
Anyone here going to try out and be a storm-leader for the book tour? I am going to try, that would be neat. Harriet won't be at the booksigning where I am going, but I would love to meet BS!
John Massey
176. subwoofer
I don't feel that Lan will take up the crown again, but he is going into the Gap to whoop butt(..er, I do not mean spanking...)- don't see it being subtle once he gets to Fal Dara... Lan? Where ya headed? Oh really?! Everybody- including the kitchen sink would follow him. Heck, I'd be there were it possible.

Just sayin'

Woof.
Tess Laird
177. thewindrose
Wetlandernw - @163
Meh. Whatever is PC gets proven by research. You know the old saying "lies, damn lies and statistics"? Or the one that says you can make statistics prove anything you want? "Published research," especially in something as subjective as this, is meaningless; they "prove" what they believed in the first place.
*nodding head sagely* Yep, I brought the same thing up a while back - so of course I totally agree:)

I also agree that none of the Sitters would say, 'Hey I got hoodwinked, my bad. We better remove Egwene' and 'Suian, your going to the farm for manipulating full Sisters when you couldn't channel a wink'.
I do hope that Egwene gets rid of the 'oath rod' since in the AoL it was used to bind criminals.
Bill Reamy
178. BillinHI
MasterAlThor @163: Totally disagree with your comment on Mat getting what he deserved from Tylin: Tylin used her position as queen to force Mat into something he did not want to do, while Mat has never pursued any woman who did not want to be pursued. Granted, Mat “relaxed and enjoyed it” after a point, but still.... Of course, as a plot device he had to be in the palace so he could rescue/kidnap the necessary personnel, so the Tylin-thing was probably the easiest way to do that. But Mat did not “deserve” it.
roywa
179. alreadymadwithtarwin'sgap
There isn't a land left to govern. Malkier is pretty much dead and/or tainted/corrupted. Lan is going to whup some though. Reconnaissance in force, preemptive strike, holding action in case the shadow does strike.
James Jones
180. jamesedjones
179 AMW

I'm not so sure about Lan's success. The HoV is always related to Illian, and BS has indicated that TG will take up the entire last book. Seems very bad. I think the good guys will spend the "last" book fighting a furious retreat alllll the way to Illian. I hope I'm wrong.
roywa
181. Dedicated
I always thought that the horn would be sounded in Illian at the start of TG. I figured that the shadow would strike with a sneak attack in Illian that would have succeeded except for Mat sounding the horn. The time won by that would allow the light to rally its forces before they were destroyed, and take them to SG for the battle that has to happen there.

Whatever happens it will be interesting. As an aside, I guess I see TG not as a single battle, but instead the final campaign in the war between the light and the shadow. We have at least three places where there will be fighting. Illian, SG and in the borderlands. Probably it will be everywhere, but those are pretty certain to me.
R B
182. MasterAlThor
BillinHI

I see what you are saying. Mat never forced his way onto anyone. But I say he deserved it because his attitude toward women. He believes that they are there to be chased. Tylin chased, cornered and captured him.

That's why he deserved it
Eric Hughes
183. CireNaes
@169 Isilel

All great points. I thought I had also stated some of those in my post, but I'm not always as clear as I think I am. I'm just stating that there seems to be a Correlation between strength in the power and ease of achievement or skill. However, it is not necessarily the Causation. Lanfear had achieved quite a bit despite not having her third name and if it hadn't been the DO on the other end of her research, probably would have gotten it. As I stated towards the end of my post, strength just makes it easier to work with the power and gives you the ability to handle more flows. These seem like natural aids to discoveries, therefor increasing your chances, but not guaranteeing them. So like you stated, of course it is not the only factor, just an advantage and something the Aes Sedai blow out of proportion.
Helen Peters
184. Helen
MasterAlThor & BillinHI
Mat says the only problem he has with his relationship with Tylin is that she did the persuing, if he'd been allowed to do the persuing (and been able to look past her noble birth) he'd probably have really enjoyed himself.
roywa
185. Mr. Micawber
Lanfear had achieved quite a bit despite not having her third name and if it hadn't been the DO on the other end of her research, probably would have gotten it.


I think, if you combine what Lews Therin (or Rand's internal recreation or whatever) said with what RJ's said about her convincing Beidomon to go along and with what the BBWBA says, Mierin Eronaile was clearly capable of qualifying for the third name even before the Bore *excepting* that little matter of her being crazy and ambitious well before the Collapse and the First War.

Her failure to gain the third name is more a "the fault lies not in our stars but in ourselves" kind of thing. I wouldn't even be surprised if the Hall of Servants would have found some way to give B a fourth name instead of giving Mierin a third. Chick was crazy!
roywa
186. syncap8
Leigh,

Responding to your challenge to find a spanked male adult (wow, don't plug that into Google):

I'm rereading KoD right now, and it seems Cadsuane uses the power to switch Rand when he goes into his fits. I just read a passage where he shows up in Tear and has a few outbursts and she's counting in the background, "one" ... "two" .... "three" ... then SMACK! He thinks to himself how much it's going to hurt in the saddle.

Doesn't happen as much, but at least one of the spanking relationships goes female to male.
roywa
187. syncap8
EDIT:
oops, sorry just read @5, already been covered :)
roywa
188. alreadymadwithillianhorn
jamesedjones @180
I hope not. If they have to retreat all the way to Illian there's nowhere else for them to go but to quit the continent entirely. By the time the Shadow gets to Illian, it will have overrun the Borderlands, Andor, Cairhien AND Tar Valon. The forces of the Light won't have any means to recover by then. There might be pockets of resistance in Arad Doman, but that's Graendal's backyard. The Light forbid that their hopes would rest on the Seanchan. That's If the Seanchan survive something they've never encountered better than the Borderlanders, Aiel, and Black and White Towers combined.
Thomas Keith
190. insectoid
Where is new post?

Nynaeve: Made. Of. Awesome. 'Nuff said. :) The part with the Salidar Six et al. pushing Nyn's buttons to make her angry makes me laugh every time.

AS hierarchy: Not much to say on this. To me, it would make more sense to have the latter be based on how long they've been Aes Sedai, rather than by strength.

I've read the Prologue; will try not to disclose any spoilers. ;)

*twitch*... Oh wait, I spoke too soon! Post!
T C
191. Freelancer
MasterAlThor@166

Others have commented, but these two coppers are burning a hole in my pocket, so you get them.

Nynaeve forced him to promise to allow anyone who wished to ride with him. She did not expect him to gather an army, he isn't going to directly contact anyone. But she will have sown the seeds. Visiting as many towns as she can along his route, and seeing that pigeons fly along the rest of it, Lan's army will gather itself around him.

Nynaeve is, in fact, doing the best she can to make sure that Lan survives. He is eaten up with feeling useless where he is, having lost Moiraine, and there's this war pulling at him that he has chosen to ignore for two decades. Nynaeve sees that she can no longer ask him to hold back from it, can no longer cause him the pain of ignoring it for her sake. So she makes sure that he is as far from alone as possible when he goes.

I suspect that Nynaeve will have estimated the number of days required for Lan to reach Tarwin's Gap, and will Travel to catch up to him before he gets there, just in case enough swords havn't joined him before he actually faces the Blight.

But even if I'm wrong on that count, courageous women seeing their men off to war is nothing new, but it is always awesome. We each carry a mountain, very few are willing to face the feather.
Birgit
192. birgit
One of my big questions for the Amyrlins from the day they heard Gitara's foretelling ...

Did Moiraine and Siuan share that info with anyone else? I don't recall.


The Amyrlin made them swear not to tell anyone.

He is Malkier. He put aside his one man war for Moiraine, and continues to do so for Nyn, but it is eating him up inside. Nyn realizes this, and 'lets him go' to do what he needs to do.

One of the factors for surviving stilling was finding a cause to replace channeling. Maybe it is similar with a Warder's chances of surviving his AS. Being allowed to finally return to his private war might help Lan get over losing Moiraine.
Tess Laird
193. thewindrose
birgit @192 I think it was implied by the transfer of the bond from Moiraine to Myrelle that this would take care of the backlash of Moiraine's supposed death. While he agreed to be Moiraine's warder, he never forgot about his private war, but she had convinced him that in a way he was still fighting it by helping her. Being a warder for Myrelle may have stifled the urge to 'follow Moiraine' i.e. get himself killed, but it does nothing for his unrelenting urge to seek revenge for what happened to Malkier. To a certain degree, being with Nyn does repress this urge, but he knows TG is coming and is frustrated that Rand isn't gathering forces in the Borderlands for TG. Nyn knows she needs to be with Rand, but also knows how frustrated her husband is. I hope as some others have said, that she will time things out to be with Lan when he has his army - hopefully with Rand and others to help.

Actually, this also makes me think of Slayer. The Isam part of Slayer battling Lan. Maybe those two will be matched off during TG.
roywa
194. alreadymadwithLan
No... Lan still suffered the "backlash" even when the bond moved to Myrelle. Only difference was that Myrelle was compelling him to come toward Salidar. Once she had him, Myrelle tried all sorts of therapeutic techniques including sex. Nothing worked until Egwene sent Lan to protect Nynaeve. That's what's keeping him alive.
John Massey
195. subwoofer
Agreed. Back when, Lan was so wrapped up with Ny, he was going to go against his bond with Moiraine and follow Ny to Tanchico. Hence the reason he send Julian in his place.
“You have made a place in my heart where I thought there was no room for anything else. You have made flowers grow where I cultivated dust and stones. Remember this, on this journey you insist on making. If you die, I will not survive you long.”


That being said, Lan also wears the hadori and his vow still stands-to avenge what cannot be defended. Ultimately- it is going to come down to man versus shadowspawn- what go me into this series to begin with. It has finally come to this. Lan is the one who gets it, Ny loves Lan and she gets it too, so here we are. Lan is on his quest and his wife is doing her best to keep him alive.

Woof.
iamlisimba
196. lisimba
re the spanking...there is the gaishain in kod whom sevanna causes to be spanked-Doirmanes who 'had begun weeping even before he was bent over the chest...'.

tyvm for the re-read; you have given me many pleasant hours!
roywa
197. Beaker
I am playing catch up so just read this today. So sorry for the late comment.


The women may get spanked, but the "boys" get their ears boxed. Which always gets a very visceral response from me because I associate it with child abuse.
roywa
198. yasiru89
Far Madding.
I'm pretty sure it's the men who get spanked over there (if not also in Ebou Dar and perhaps elsewhere- probably with Aiel). I'm sure someone suggested this to Min in all seriousness in Winter's Heart when Rand and company were hunting Darkfriends in Far Madding.

You've also missed the ultimate gender equaliser here in favour of objecting to spankings (and here at least, I don't think Bryne even meant much by it)- what I like to call the Reconnecting Dichotomy. Only a channeler of the opposite gender can heal a severed channeler back to full strength. An equal playing field with regard to the Power would have been boring to begin with, but these new things that pop up as the world heads towards the Last Battle are interesting for just the way they reestablish balance.
roywa
199. emmyloo03
I always cry when Nynaeve heals Suian and Leanne, no matter how many times I've read the series *cough* 7-8 *cough* ;)
roywa
200. qbe_64
As someone who spent a ridiculous number of hours breeding chocobos for speed and stamina in FFVII, I'm hurt that there's only one other person who picked up on the reference. Fucking Teioh!
BTW, 276 speed and 999 stamina is the highest I ever got.
roywa
201. Adil
The Aes Sedai hierarchy didn't make sense to me at all until I read the Big White Book of Bad Art. It is a hierarchy of bullies.

The formation of the White Tower was a violent process. Until then, Aes Sedai was a generic term for 'person who can channel'. As the White Tower was founded and anyone failing to get with the program was stilled/executed, the new organization Aes Sedai were crazy-toxic in how they interacted with eachother making the Black Tower look like puppies. I imagine that humanity coming stright out of the Breaking were all a little crazy and the average person was in fight/flight mode as a matter of course for generations after the last Male Aes Sedai died.

The first millenium of the Third Age was one where Aes Sedai openly attacked eachtother in the Tower Hall! They had to pass laws against chanelling in the Hall and Amyrlin ever going anywhere because of assasination attempts! I imagine that the first lesson learned by any new Sister was to never piss off anyone stronger than you in the Power. A weak channeler like Daigan might act like a servant around everone else as a survival tactic. If you think about it, there was always an element of intimidation in interactions between stronger and weaker Aes Sedai throughout the series.

That's why the degree of defference grows with the gap in strength. Sheriam can kind of stand up to Elaida because if it came down to it, if she took her on, she'd have a chance of succeeding. The reason why the Aes Sedai of the third age are so screwed up is because their genesis was screwed up to begin with. The Windfinders and Wise Ones emmerged out of service to thie communites rather than violence/abuse/bullying.

On a side note: I've always found the Wise Ones to be arguably more in the spirit of the Aes Sedai from the Age of legends than the women of the White tower. I remember reading a theory somewhere that the Wise Ones followed the original ajah system of the AoL Aes Sedai. On top of that, the fact that status is based on honour rather than strength seems to match the AoL emphasis on service/accomplishments. I mean, it's an organization where women who cannot channel have the same status and entitlement to respect as women who can level mountains! I wonder if this is because the Wise Ones have access to memories of the AoL through the Glass Columns?
William McDaniel
202. willmcd
I noted this passage near the beginning of Ch29, when Nynaeve is walking through the Little Tower:
The Little Tower had taken on attributes of the White Tower, the precise formality above all. When Nynaeve first saw this room it had had a bustle about it, an air of something being done. A false air, then. Now it seemed almost slow, but it was the feel of the White Tower.
Here RJ seems to be pointing out to us that while the Salidar "rebellion" might have had some impetus initially, they have quickly settled into an organization just as ineffectual as the White Tower itself. They may be in opposition to Elaida, but in their current state they will be of no more benefit to the world than she is.
roywa
203. Nireth Swel
Hello there Leigh. First post ever right here, you've inspired an expansion of my social skills...on a computer...via the interwebs......aaaand still by myself.....

Wellllll one akward silence later I'm back, sorry 'bout that mate! (no I'm not an Aussie). Anywho, this may be super duper uper far fetched but do you think the powers that be at TOR would ever consider taking all of these uber-fab re-read posts for WOT into some sort of compendium as a companion guide to the WOT series? I know there are a bazillion and one WOT re-reads out there, some are good, others should be banished to the Aiel Waste never to be heard from again. For my money yours is simply tops! Wait, isn't this free? I've been e-hustled! Next I'll hear that I was swindled on that bridge I purchased. ....Never mind.
Ultimately it comes down to the OBVIOUS love for the series that you pour out in heaping helpings for all us WOT junkies who, never being easily satisfied have finally found the sweet solace of contentment in the whimsical prose of a sublimely satyrical literary lady....who is super nice....aaaand....umm....the Queen of Everything.
Me? No! Pshhht, I'm not laying anything on thick that wouldn't stick. Was that inappropriate? I'm note sure, but let's say if there was a line, would I have crossed it? I mean, cuz if I did, you know, see whahadhappinwaz, uhhh, my cat, yeah see, it walked all up on my keyboard like I'm in a bad mood! Ima poop on the floor. And it turned to me and said....okay, I may have fabricated that last part. Cats don't talk and you're not going to fall for it anyway, that is not to say there is anything TO fall for, cuz it's true, right? Why was that last sentence a question? I don't know what to believe anymore!! Leigh, PLEASE put a stop to this madness! TOR hear me roar!! Hey, that ryhmed. Hehehe...oh snap is that cake.........................................................................................................................................................-j 28h 8}(U$ jgmq08 ---- hi. dis is cat. do as i say or cake lovin loney man gets ze poo on his pillow dis morning.

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