Wed
Aug 26 2009 11:52am

The Wheel of Time Re-read: Lord of Chaos, Part 9

Hearken, ye peeps, pink and yellow alike! It is the Wheel of Time Re-read! Oui, c’est vrai!

Words that start with “v” are cool. Today ve vill be viping your vindows, and also covering Chapters 12-13 of Lord of Chaos, in vhich Nynaeve makes friends and influences people, and Our Heroines go shopping for tchotchkes, like, omigod!

Previous entries are here, and all posts contain spoilers for all currently published novels in the Wheel of Time series. So if you haven’t read, don’t read. The Management would like you to know that we are NOT responsible.

(This intro has been an exercise in seeing how much bizarre free association I can cram into five-ish paragraphs. Almond Joy!)



Chapter 12: Questions and Answers

 

What Happens
Elayne and Nynaeve are in their room, trying to penetrate the ward against eavesdropping over the Hall with weaves Moghedien claimed would slip through it undetected, but are having no luck. Moghedien, who Nynaeve irritably notes is not sweating, says calmly that there are a thousand ways to spin wards, and it can take days to get through one sometimes. Elayne sighs and says she has to go, and tries to give the a’dam bracelet to Nynaeve, but Nynaeve has to help Janya and Delana with their notes. Elayne goes to leave it, but Nynaeve insists she wear it, thinking that Elayne is entirely too trusting of the a’dam, and not nearly wary enough of the possibility of a Forsaken finding a way around it. Elayne leaves, and Moghedien’s manner abruptly changes; she tells Nynaeve that perhaps she ought to go to al’Thor; sooner or later the Aes Sedai are going to start really digging to find out how she made those wonderful discoveries when she can’t even channel when she wants to. Nynaeve is puzzled by her sudden confidence.

“Just you remember, whatever happens to me if they find out the truth, your head will be on the chopping block before the week is done.”

“Whereas you will have much longer to suffer. Semirhage once made a man scream his every waking hour for five years. She even kept him sane, but in the end even she could not keep his heart beating. I doubt any of these children have a tenth of Semirhage’s skill, but you may find out firsthand how much they do have.”

Nynaeve abruptly realizes that this is the first time she’s been alone in a room with Moghedien without the bracelet, and tries to tell herself it doesn’t matter, but she and Moghedien both know it does. Moghedien presses her advantage, suggesting that these “so-called Aes Sedai” might decide to go back to Elaida, and turn her and Elayne over as a peace offering – especially Elayne, if al’Thor’s feelings for her are anywhere near as strong as hers for him. Nynaeve tells her as calmly as she can not to forget her chores, and leaves hastily. Outside, she chews goosemint leaves to settle her stomach, and thinks that she had really believed Moghedien to be cowed, and she and Elayne had obviously talked too freely in front of her. She heads off to her assignment, noting that everyone in Salidar, except the Warders and the children, is hushed and apprehensive. And except for Gareth Bryne, who is waiting patiently in front of the Little Tower as he has been ever since Tarna arrived. She overhears snatches of wild rumors as she walks, everything from Elaida’s death to her allying with an army of Whitecloaks. Everyone is suspicious of everyone else, wondering if Elaida’s swift discovery of Salidar meant there were Tower faction sympathizers in the village. She goes to find Birgitte, and finds her with a group of small children (including Jaril and Seve, “Marigan’s” two boys), and Areina, who is dressed and armed in conscious imitation of Birgitte, and sneers openly at Nynaeve when Nynaeve tells Birgitte she wants to talk alone.

Nynaeve’s face tightened. She had befriended the woman before Birgitte had, but the friendship melted on reaching Salidar. Learning that Nynaeve was not full Aes Sedai brought something more than disappointment. Only a request from Birgitte had held Areina back from informing the Aes Sedai that she had masqueraded as one.

Areina stalks off; Nynaeve looks at the playing children, and suddenly remembers that Jaril and Seve have started talking again, and is seized with fresh worry that they might tell someone they have no idea who “Marigan” is. Birgitte asks what’s wrong, and Nynaeve asks if she could get horses for herself, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Marigan (and Thom and Juilin if they get back in time) without Uno’s help. Birgitte argues against the notion of leaving without the Shienarans, pointing out that four women alone in the turmoil that is Altara is just asking for trouble. She concludes that if Elayne tells her to do so, she’ll get the horses, but not before then.

The unyielding finality of her tone heated Nynaeve’s face angrily. If she did ask Elayne ever so sweetly to tell Birgitte that Uno was to stay here, they might well find him waiting down the road, and Birgitte all amazement over how he knew they were going and which way. The woman might be Elayne’s Warder, but sometimes Nynaeve wondered which of them was really in charge. When she found Lan—when, not if!—she intended to make him swear oaths fit to curl his hair that he would abide by her decisions.

She then tries to convince Birgitte to try spying on the Little Tower’s meetings with Tarna, but Birgitte refuses flatly; she’d been caught spying on Aes Sedai once, and has no intention of ever doing it again. They are interrupted by Nicola, who has brought a message that Janya and Delana are looking for Nynaeve. Nynaeve reflects that ever since Nicola had found out she could be taught to channel, and that her potential was only outstripped by Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve herself, she had looked at Nynaeve and Elayne with cool speculation, and behaved just within the bounds of proper behavior for novices to Accepted. Nynaeve quickly finds out that Nicola had deliberately delayed telling her the message, and heads off, but forces herself not to outpace Nicola, who is purposely ambling along.

The situation set a slow burn inside her. Of everybody who could have been sent to fetch her, it was hard to imagine anyone worse than Nicola and her eyes. Birgitte was probably running off to find Uno right that minute. The Sitters were probably telling Tarna they were ready to kneel and kiss Elaida’s ring. Seve and Jaril were probably telling Sheriam they did not know “Marigan” from a wild goose. It had been that kind of day, and the molten sun stood only a quarter toward its peak in the cloudless sky.

They reach Janya and Delana’s quarters. Janya is a typical Brown, and Delana is a hard-eyed Gray; Nynaeve thinks of the stories that say Delana is such an effective negotiator because the parties will agree to anything just to make her stop staring at them. They quickly kick Nicola out, and to Nynaeve’s surprise, Janya offers her tea. It quickly becomes clear that the two sisters want to grill Nynaeve about Rand. Nynaeve sighs that she’s told everyone everything she knows about him, which is actually true, but Delana suspects that Nynaeve’s loyalties to a boy from her own village may outweigh her loyalty to the Tower, and demands to hear something new. This goes on for most of the morning, until they finally let her go. Nynaeve staggers out and heads for her appointment with Theodrin, which she is already late for, and sees the Little Tower, still encased in the eavesdropping ward (which she is angry enough to see). On impulse Nynaeve darts into a side alley and works her way around the Little Tower to the back.

Trying to work some moisture back into her mouth—how could her mouth be so dry when the rest of her was so damp?—she crept closer. One day she wanted to know what it was like to be brave, like Birgitte or Elayne, instead of a coward.

She steps inside the ward to the wall, and inches along to the open window, which to her surprise is the one she wants – Tarna is inside the room, with the Salidar Six. Tarna is asking if they’re sure that’s the message they want to send – that they need more time to consider. The others reply yes, variously, and Tarna contemptuously agrees before sweeping out, leaving Nynaeve frustrated. She starts to edge away, but the Six begin talking, and she waits. Myrelle thinks they should just summon “her”, but Morvrin and Beonin warn that “the forms must be met”, and any deviation would be used against them. Carlinya wants to know how long they are supposed to wait.

“As long as we must.” That from Beonin. “I have not waited this long for the biddable child just to abandon all our plans now.”

For some reason that produced a silence, although Nynaeve did hear someone murmur “biddable” again as if examining the word. What child? A novice or Accepted? It made no sense. Sisters never waited on novices or Accepted.

“We have gone too far to turn back, Carlinya,” Sheriam said finally. “Either we bring her here and make sure she does as she should, or we leave everything to the Hall and hope they do not lead us all to disaster.” From her tone, she considered that last a hope for fools.

“One slip,” Carlinya said coldly, even more coldly than usual, “and we will all end with our heads on pikes.”

“But who will put them there?” Anaiya asked thoughtfully. “Elaida, the Hall, or Rand al’Thor?”

They all leave silently, and Nynaeve starts to back away, puzzling over the conversation, and runs smack into Theodrin. Nynaeve considers whacking Theodrin on the head and running, but doesn’t think this will work. Then Theodrin asks if she has been keeping calm, which is in reference to the latest method she’s trying to break Nynaeve’s block, and after a stunned moment Nynaeve laughs and answers of course. She can’t believe she’s getting off so lightly.

Neither saw the woman watching them from a second-story window.

Commentary
Nynaeve and Elayne’s gradual erosion of control over Moghedien is, I think, mostly part of the set-up for Egwene’s arrival and her assertion of authority in their little cadre. Nynaeve and Elayne have basically been spending their entire Salidar story arc floundering and waffling, and it is definitely deliberate that they do not get their shit straightened out until Egwene shows up to be the Boss of Them. Which is great and all, but doesn’t make it less frustrating to read about in the meantime.

Bryne: Heh. You gotta love the man’s balls. That is all.

Areina and Nicola: Ugh. I have always pretty much despised them. I seem to recall Nicola begins redeeming herself in KOD, but until then they are a giant pain in my ass. Blackmailers suck.

Nynaeve does make an interesting observation about Areina:

The woman could watch Birgitte drink and flirt with men without turning a hair, and even try to emulate her, yet she bristled every time Birgitte wanted to be alone with Elayne or Nynaeve. Men were no threat; only women could be friends in Areina’s book, but only she could be Birgitte’s friend. The idea of having two friends seemed foreign to her.

I’ve known women like this (girls, actually – I’ve never met an adult who acted like this, thank God), and it usually stems from a kind of grand selfishness coupled with crippling self-esteem issues. Which is very sad, and Will Not End Well for anyone involved.

(I highly doubt this phenomenon is exclusive to women, of course, but I can only speak from the experience I have personally.)

Janya and Delana: I don’t have much to say about this, except that the scene takes on an interesting flavor once you know what Delana’s real Ajah is. (Janya is one of the Sitters in the original Hall that fled after the coup and is now a Sitter in the rebel Hall, and is part of the whole “too-young Sitters” mystery that I am so not dealing with until I have to.)

“Biddable child”, blah blah. We know what this is. If I had ever been going to guess this plot twist before Egwene actually gets summoned, this would have been where I did it. I just can’t remember if that was the case. Oh well.

The woman at the window: No clue who it is. I don’t know that we ever find out, or that it matters, except that I highly doubt it was Tarna.


Chapter 13: Under the Dust

What Happens
Nynaeve towels herself dry grumpily as Theodrin examines the black eye Nynaeve gave her, and ruefully agrees that it looks like shock (from, for instance, having a bucket of cold water dumped on you) won’t work on Nynaeve’s block. But, she adds, she is determined to find a way to make Nynaeve embrace saidar without her being “angry enough to bite it” first.

“I am not very good at surrendering,” [Nynaeve] said. Unless there was no point in fighting, anyway. Only a fool went on where there was no chance at all. She could not breathe under water, she could not fly by flapping her arms—and she could not channel except when angry.

Theodrin remarks that by what she’s been taught, Nynaeve shouldn’t be able to channel at all; one must be calm and serene to embrace saidar. She decides to go back to the basics, and she spends hours putting Nynaeve through beginning novice exercises, to no avail. Nynaeve Heals Theodrin’s black eye before she leaves (though part of her wants to leave it), and sees Tarna on the street outside. Nynaeve slips away before the Red sister sees her, thinking bitterly of Theodrin’s instructions that she was not to sleep tonight – maybe exhaustion would work where shock had not. She goes back to her room, where Elayne immediately begins complaining at length about the horrible day she’s had, while Nynaeve contemplates throwing things at her.

“—then Ibrella decided to see how big a flame she could make and nearly set the whole class on fire, and Faolain dressed me down right in front of everybody for not keeping my class under control, and Nicola said she—”

Nynaeve gave up trying to get a word in edgewise—maybe she should have thrown the apple core—and just shouted. “I think Moghedien’s right!”

Shocked, Elayne tells her that is foolish, but Nynaeve thinks that any moment now their subterfuge will be discovered. She also tells Elayne what the Six’s message was to Tarna (“You what?”), which Nynaeve thinks means they’re at least considering going back to Elaida, and they should quit while they’re ahead and go to Rand. Elayne is very much against this idea, and thinks they should stay. They argue it back and forth until they are suddenly interrupted by Tarna herself, to their amazement.

The yellow-haired Red sister scrutinized them, her face arrogant winter marble. “So. The Queen of Andor and the crippled wilder.”

“Not yet, Aes Sedai,” Elayne replied with a cool politeness. “Not until I am crowned in the Great Hall. And only if my mother is dead,” she added.

Tarna dryly observes that their quarters are less than luxurious, and tells Elayne that Elaida has a “special place in her heart” for Elayne, and it would please the Amyrlin greatly if Elayne were to return to the Tower. Elayne refuses coolly, whereupon Tarna tells her to leave; once alone with Nynaeve, she becomes much more casual and attempts to put Nynaeve at ease, which Nynaeve doesn’t buy for a moment.

“Ah. Offended, is it? Why? Because I called you ‘wilder’? I’m a wilder too, you know. Galina Casban beat my block out of me herself. She knew my Ajah long before I did, and took a personal interest in me. She always does in those she thinks will choose Red.”

Nynaeve asks politely what she wants, and Tarna replies that Elayne is important to the Tower, but Nynaeve nearly as much so, with what she knows about Rand al’Thor. She casually asks where Egwene is, and Nynaeve tells her (truthfully) that she hasn’t seen Egwene in a long time. She hesitates, and asks Tarna what Elaida intends with regard to Rand.

“Intend, child? He’s the Dragon Reborn. The Amyrlin knows that, and she intends to give him every honor he deserves.”

Tarna gives Nynaeve the hard sell: the Tower must be whole and able to guide al’Thor, or the world faces disaster, and Nynaeve’s information may be vital, adding the bribe that an Accepted may only be raised to Aes Sedai in the Tower. Nynaeve tells her she barely knew Rand, really, and all she remembers is a boy who never listened to reason, and had to be pushed into doing anything. Tarna stares at her a moment, and then casually brings up Siuan and Leane’s presence in Salidar. She also hints at knowing something which Nynaeve thinks might be Logain. She takes her leave, telling Nynaeve to think on her offer. Nynaeve thinks that Tarna knows a lot more about Salidar than she’s been shown, and maybe Elaida did have supporters here.

Uneasiness and anger roiled about with exhilaration. She wished the Red had some way to communicate with the Tower Aes Sedai seeking Rand. Oh, to be a fly on the wall when they tried using her assessment of him.

Later, Elayne makes a deal with Nynaeve: they will go into Tel’aran’rhiod that night and use the “need walk” to try and find something to convince the rebels not to go back to Elaida. If they find something, they stay; if not, they leave. Nynaeve reluctantly agrees. That night, they enter the Dreamworld; Nynaeve is skeptical that this will work with so vague a target.

“It will have to do, Nynaeve. According to you, the Wise Ones said the stronger the need the better, and we surely need something, or the help we promised Rand is going to vanish except for whatever Elaida is willing to give. I won’t let that happen, Nynaeve. I will not.”

“Put your chin down. Neither will I, if there’s anything we can do about it.”

They close their eyes and concentrate and end up in Tar Valon, where there seems to be a lot of people having horrible nightmares that touch the Dreamworld. Uneasily, they try again, and end up in a storeroom in the Tower, filled with ter’angreal, which Nynaeve surmises must be the kind that no one has discovered how to use yet; in any case, there’s no way they could get to whatever it is that led them here. Discouraged, Elayne wonders if there’s a way to do the “need” thing and exclude a place specifically. Nynaeve thinks anything’s possible, so they decide to try focusing on a ter’angreal that’s not in Tar Valon. They concentrate, and find themselves in a strange city with many canals and white buildings; again, and they are in a slum of that same city; again, and they are in a dusty storeroom filled to the brim with what looks like junk. They try again, and end up in front of one particular chest; they try one more time for the heck of it, and have their hands on what proves to be a wide shallow crystal bowl carved with clouds.

“Nynaeve,” Elayne said slowly, “I think this is...”

Nynaeve gave a start and nearly dropped her side of the bowl as it suddenly turned a pale watery blue and the carved clouds shifted slowly. A heartbeat later, the crystal was clear again, the carved clouds still. Only she was certain the clouds were not the same as they had been.

“It is,” Elayne exclaimed. “It’s a ter’angreal. And I will bet anything it has something to do with weather. But I’m not quite strong enough to work it by myself.”

Nynaeve yells at her for channeling at an unknown ter’angreal, but Elayne points out that that is what they came for, and besides no one else knows more about ter’angreal than her, anyway. Nynaeve sniffs, and says while it would be great to do something about the weather, this is not what they were looking for. Elayne quotes Lini’s saying about what you need not always being what you want. Nynaeve sniffs again, and Elayne tells her that she also thinks this is not the only Power-related object in the room, either; there may even be sa’angreal in here. Nynaeve is incredulous, but agrees they need to find out where exactly this storeroom is in any case. Unfortunately the surrounding streets are all virtually identical, though Elayne has figured out they must be in Ebou Dar. Nynaeve thinks finding the bowl was pointless if they can’t tell anyone how to get to it, and Elayne replies that they will just have to come here and search for themselves. Nynaeve loves this idea, as it has the side effect of getting them away from Salidar “before everything falls on our heads”. They leave the Dreamworld.

“Do you think it will do any good?” Nynaeve asked quietly.

“I do not know.” Elayne stopped to muffle a yawn behind her hand. How could the woman manage to look pretty yawning, with her hair a mess and a red wrinkle from a pillow marring one cheek? That was a secret Aes Sedai ought to investigate.

Elayne quickly goes to sleep, and Nynaeve is about to follow suit when she remembers Theodrin’s orders, and gets up angrily.

All she wanted was to get away. She had said she was not very good at surrendering, but maybe she was getting good at running away. It would be so wonderful to channel whenever she wanted. She never even noticed the tears that began leaking down her cheeks.

Commentary
Man, that “need walk” thing would be AWESOME for when I lose my keys. Again.

Enter the dreaded Bowl of the Winds. (DUN!) Lord give me strength. It sounds like it would make a fabulous coffee table centerpiece, though.

Elayne: Is being exceptionally Princessy in this chapter, though I found her grousing about the novices kind of hilarious, myself. I also am far less annoyed about her “I know everything about ter’angreal, neener” attitude than I would normally be, with my comfortable foreknowledge of how that is so going to come back and bite her in the ass later. Shadenfreude: it’s what’s for breakfast!

Nynaeve: As usual is not having much fun, blockwise, but at least she gets off some good one-liners, mostly at Elayne’s expense. (“Put your chin down.” Heh.) Her thoughts on the mystery of Elayne’s unkillable prettiness is probably one of my favorite quotes from her.

Though I can’t say I care much for the way she’s swallowed Moghedien’s bait hook, line, and sinker. At least Elayne heads her off at the pass, but why hasn’t either one of them considered that bringing a Forsaken, even a captive one, within arm’s reach of Rand might not be a good thing?

Speaking of Nynaeve’s block, that first bit I quoted was not in ANY WAY foreshadowing, uh-uh, nosirreebob!

I thought for a second I was going to have to be really upset at Nynaeve’s “clever” idea to make the Tower Aes Sedai think that bullying Rand would be an effective tactic, but the quote itself points out that the Tower embassy to Rand is already on its way, and I seem to recall Elaida doesn’t get Tarna’s report on Salidar till ACOS. So, evidently Elaida had come up with the “bullying” aspect all by herself, surprise surprise. Still, Nynaeve really should have thought that move through a little more.

Tarna: This is the chapter that really got the fans going on the theory that she was Mesaana’s cover identity in the Tower, mostly based on the Forsaken icon being used for this chapter even though no Forsaken (apparently) appear in it. The FAQ section on this is, of course, not up to date for KOD, but it doesn’t appear that anything in KOD really shed any light on this particular mystery, so it is still useful.

I don’t personally believe Tarna is Mesaana; I think if Mesaana is anyone we’ve met, she’s Danelle. Tarna may be bitchy here, but post-LOC she ends up being one of the few Reds we meet with anything approaching a clue. This is hardly ironclad evidence, of course, and again I am very vague on KOD events, so take it for what it’s worth. I guess it depends on whether you think Reds bonding Asha’man as Warders is a Light-worthy notion, or the worst idea you’ve ever heard, since I seem to recall that was Tarna’s idea.

(Erg. I’m thinking I’m going to have to read KOD again before TGS. I was going to try and wait till I got there, so as to come at it fresh, but I remember so little about KOD that TGS is going to present some serious problems otherwise. Drat.)


And that’s all I got to say about that, thbbt! Enjoy your midweek, and I’ll see you Friday with Moar Stufs, lol. (Ow.)

193 comments
Rob Munnelly
1. RobMRobM
Leigh - chapter icon - Moggy is central to the chapter. Mystery solved. Rob

Edit - that was the preceding chapter. Nevermind. I have no idea why there is a Foresaken icon in the second chapter.
Antoni Ivanov
2. tonka
We have point of view from Tarna in KOD (yea it would be a good idea to read it before TGS, Ms Butler). She is not Mesaana.

As for bringing Moggy to Rand - that would have been interesting since Rand would recognize her (or LTT would but it's all the same).
Abdel Masdoua
3. TheDarkOne
Great Recap Leigh, Thanks!

Nynaeve being Nynaeve, she's still ever so funny in this two chapters, though I find myself really annoyed that she listens too much to Moghedien.
I mean, come on, Evil uber-bitchy Forsaken, don't listen to ANYTHING they say kids!
(Yep, I really don't like Moggy except sometimes when she pushes too far her cowardice which can be truly funny.)

Never understood the Forsaken icon there, if anyone can enlighten me with one loony theory or another...

Edit: Also, forgot to mention the link below the (as-usual-funny) intro is not working...
Jay Dauro
5. J.Dauro
Isn't Moggy using an inverted weave to mask her features? If so Rand might not recognize her. Although I still agree, not a good idea to bring her close to him.

As always Leigh, you do good work. But yes, you do have to re-read KoD before tGS. And I for one think you deserve a week off before the release to prepare.
John Cater
6. katre
I read that quote from Tarna (about Galina knowing ger true ajah) as being an implicit proof that she's Black. Do we have any evidence one way or the other?
Luke M
7. lmelior
Hey, early post today!

Enter the dreaded Bowl of the Winds.
You? No!

Danelle is definitely Mesaana.

Dale Carnegie FTW.
Lsana
9. Lsana
I can't remember exactly when Halima makes her arrival in Salidar. Is it possible that she's already here at this point and that she's the one watching from the upper window? That would be one possible explanation of the Forsaken icon.
Anthony Pero
10. anthonypero
Lsana@9:

The Window Watcher was in Chapter 12, the Serpent Icon in Chapter 13, so no, it's not referencing Halima.

I think Rob@1 is correct, that Moghiedien plays a critical role in Nynaeve's thoughts all throught the Chapter.

This just happened in my PoD re-read as well. Mat's dice headed a chapter, and of course, Mat isn't even in the book. The chapter did include Egwene thinking about the Band, and Mat, an awful lot, and Talmanes telling Egwene about feeling a ta'vren pull from Mat leading him south.
Anthony Pero
11. anthonypero
What i want to know is this:

Uneasily, they try again, and end up in a storeroom in the Tower, filled with ter’angreal, which Nynaeve surmises must be the kind that no one has discovered how to use yet; in any case, there’s no way they could get to whatever it is that led them here.

WTF? What is in the Tower that Rand needs? Has that come into play in the last 6 books?
Rob Munnelly
12. RobMRobM
Lsana - no, Halima shows up five or six chapters later.

I assumed it was Tarna watching Nyn from the upper window. Or could be Moggy but probably not.
Antoni Ivanov
13. tonka
I'll eat my hat if Tarna is Black. Read KOD and her POVs.

As for Halima I think this was her silent entrance and she was introduced officially a few chapters later.
Lsana
14. topknot
Anthonypero@11

the Horn is in the tower
James Jones
15. jamesedjones
11 anthonypero

"What is in the Tower that Rand needs?"

They were looking for something to convince the rebels not to return to the tower. They later decided it should be a terangreal and not in the tower. Elayne then implied that they would need a man channeling to make the terangreal work. :)
Lsana
16. Lsana
@12 RobMRobM,

I know that Halima hasn't "officially" arrived in Salidar yet, but what I was trying to remember was if there was anything that would contradict the watcher at the window being Halima; could she have already arrived, but just hasn't been introduced to any of the PoV characters yet?
Anthony Pero
17. anthonypero
topknot@14: The horn was kept in the same room as the Shadar Logoth Dagger, and it wasn't described as a ter'angreal store room in TSR.

jamesedjones@15: I don't have that book with me, and Leigh is not specific here, but I seem to remember the thought was need, and specifically, need to help Rand. Prehaps in the way you say (convincing the SAS to not go back to the Tower) but that's not the way I remember it. Can you provide the direct quote?
Rob Munnelly
18. RobMRobM
@16 - good thought but I think Halima showed up a couple of days later. Unlikely she'd be there and not go directly to Delana. R
Skip Ives
19. Skip
I know I missed the reference to Egwene in these chapters, mostly because I sped my way through them. Even on re-read, I can't get much excitement going for them.

The Tower is filled with objects of power. Kind of like Tear. As topknot says, the Horn is there; as are other things he might find useful. I don't think it is a clue as much as an obvious answer.

I think it is here I start losing my patience with Elayne. Nynaeve gets to be trying in the next couple books, but Elayne is a pain to read right through KOD.
Marcus W
20. toryx
The business with Nicola and Areina suddenly becoming grade A bitches after Nynaeve got along so well with them in the previous book has always irritated the hell out of me.

I understand that later RJ explains it away by inserting a retroactive, "Oh, we heard the men say they were pretending to be Aes Sedai," and suddenly neither woman has any respect for them. That always caught me as a really weak explanation, however. This is one of those areas where I'm convinced that RJ sometimes, in all his wisdom, goofs up and changes his mind later on how he's going to handle things.

But hey, no one's perfect.

I can understand Nynaeve's frustrations but she really sort of annoyed me with these. By now she should have enough confidence to not allow Moghedian to lead her by the nose. Oh well. No one's perfect.
Francesco Paonessa
21. ErrantKnave
Leigh, let me get this straight. Just before TGS comes out, you want to read whatever book you're on, and do the commentary, AND read KOD? After which you proceed to read whatever book you're, and do the commentary, AND read TGS?

Bravo.
Marcus W
22. toryx
jamesedjones @ 15 & anthonypero @ 17:

I'm frankly not sure what jamesedjones is talking about. Elayne later on outright lied to the Aes Sedai by saying that a man would be needed for using the Bowl of the Winds in an attempt to further tie them to him. When they were searching by need, they weren't even thinking specifically about an item of power. Just anything that would help keep the rebels from returning to the tower.

I'm inclined to agree with those who say that the Horn seems to have been kept in another place other than where Nyn and Elayne ended up. So that does suggest that there's something else entirely in that storeroom that would be of use. But given the results of the Bowl of the Winds, who knows what it is? It might not involve Rand directly at all.

Edit: Correction
Antoni Ivanov
23. tonka
@ 17.anthonypero

I am sorry to contradict you but the Horn was not kept in the same room as the dagger. It was and still is kept in some place that only Verin and Siuan know of.
William Fettes
24. Wolfmage
Thanks and great observations as usual, Leigh. I agree with you completely about how the trials and trivialities of Nynaeve and Elayne's life in Salidar are set up as obvious foils for Egwene's grand entrance into the picture. I do understand this at one level, but I can't help but feel that as a literary device it's probably a little too heavy handed for me, and comes at the cost of diminishing characters I find more copacetic.

Indeed, it's one of my few real pet peeves about the books how RJ does tend to rail-road Egwene's ascendancy through a zero-sum loss for Nynaeve. Some significant shifts in their relationship were inevitable, but I think RJ could have spread the gravitas and formidableness a bit more evenly amongst the SGs without any loss to Egwene's stock as girl Amyrlin, especially when you consider Nynaeve's future encounters with the knitting circle, seafolk and Cadsuane.
Alice Arneson
25. Wetlandernw
Here's a theory for you. The object they "needed" in the WT will turn up in tGS, when Egwene discovers it and uses it. Not sure exactly how, but maybe it's something that will completely discredit Elaida and all things associated with her, since the original "need" they focussed on was "something to convince the rebels not to go back to Elaida." Might be something that will prove the existence of the BA and its involvement in the coup, which would get quite the reaction from ALL non-black AS. Maybe it's something that will "out" Mesaana, which might even account for the Forsaken icon.
Galen Brinn
26. GatheringStorm
The "floundering" around of Nyn and El in these chapters was nearly (to me) as bad as the menagerie chapters in the previous book. I know that what's being set up here is Nyn being mad enough to channel and heal stilling/gentling but still...

We know that the Tower proper is aware of the location of the "rebels" and we (now) know that we have a Black Sister in the group, so it's entirely within the realm of possibility that Messaana came to pay a personal visit to the SAS and that this is who is in the window. However, I don't remember that this has ever been brought back up in any of the subsequent books and seems to be just a dead-end/red herring of a plot point.

On Nynaeve's "cowardice", she reminds me of WWII vets. If you've talked to any of them or listened to interviews (see Band of Brothers) and the word "hero" is mentioned, they say they weren't brave, they weren't exceptional, they just did what they had to do to survive and keep their buddies alive. All the while, they will deny that they were doing anything extraordinary. Nynaeve is a lot like this; she thinks of herself as a coward but when the chips are down, she does what has to be done.
Antoni Ivanov
27. tonka
@20.toryx

Why ? I think I would have been surprised if there was no reaction from Nicole and Areina . They discovered that Ny and El are not real Aes Sedai but were pretending it. I think Nicole and Areina are the type of person who like to tie themselves to the powerful , they , well Nicole, is very ambitious , she later blackmail two other Aes Sedai and tries to blackmail the Amyrlin for the Light's sake. It fits very nicely that they would be upset that Ny & El are not what they thought.

As for the need I think in the White Tower room was something that would have helped tie the Aes Sedai to Rand but they switched later the need to a ter'angreal not to something that would help tie AS to Rand so they find a important Ter'angreal.
Marcus W
29. toryx
tonka @ 27:

If you read real carefully the chapters when Nynaeve and Elayne first encounter the three women, they did nothing to suggest or imply in any way that they were Aes Sedai. They weren't pretending to be anything more than travelers. When they disembarked from the boat they'd comandeered, they still had not said anything to the three women about who they were or where they were going.

There is not a single written scene that I've ever been able to find where Nynaeve or Elayne ever claimed to be Aes Sedai in front of those other women. It's only many chapters after they get (and leave) Salidar that we learn that Nicola or Areina (or both) overheard one of the men talking about how the women pretended to be Aes Sedai when they were really accepted.

In that sense, it's retroactively implied that Nynaeve and Elayne told the three women they were Aes Sedai or involved with them somehow. And frankly, there'd be no need for doing that if Nicola and Areina hadn't suddenly become so nasty and disrespectful.
Helen Peters
30. Helen
First need...a way to convince the Hall not to go to Elaida p339

Second need...A Ter'angreal. Not in Tar Valon p343

The second time they didn't specify to help Rand or anything, unless that's left over from the first 'need'.
Lsana
31. alreadymadwithsalidar
tonka @2
You mean Rand would recognize Moggy, then rant and rave that it was LTT who recognized her.

As for the woman in the window, always thought it was Tarna. Don't know why it has a Forsaken icon. No, I don't think Tarna is Mesaana.
William Fettes
32. Wolfmage
toryx @ 29

Are you sure about that toryx? I seemed to remember that they ended up bringing out their rings openly, or it became evident that they healed some passengers or something. I just checked the WOT encyclopaedia, and it doesn't mention that though.
Tess Laird
33. thewindrose
Serpent Icon: Tarna mentioning who broke her block - Galina. Or, Leigh will like this one - maybe Theodrin.
Lsana
34. sotgnomen
While I agree that much of this is set-up for egwene coming and making everything right, what sells me on these chapters is the great buildup to nyn healing logain.
Even on the reread, i just plodded along these chapters, getting more and more frustrated and reading faster and faster while nyn got less and less interesting, and BOOM!
Which makes these chapters no less frustrating reading, but taken as a whole the salidar part of the book becomes much better for it.
Lsana
35. swmdilla
@25 wetlandernw - What a theory!
Jason Lyman
36. jlyman
Maybe Elaida hid her diary in that storeroom. That would certainly convince anyone that she's crazy.

On a more serious note I can understand the frustration that Nyneave is feeling here. It may not be a well liked turn of character, but she has been knocked down a couple of pegs. After defeating Moghedien and accomplishing all their goals there in Tanchico, she is then knocked down in a few ways, not the least of which is being hit upside the head with the reality that she really is still an Accepted and that she is no longer able to make her own decisions about what to do and when.

She was on a high when they high-tailed it out of town, but ever since then she has been losing control, a little to Elayne, to Thom and Juilin as well as just circumstances. Not to mention the flip flop that she feels in regard to Egwene (which is another Bela that has been kicked quite often).

But I think that this entire arc plays into her finally hitting bottom, almost literally, when she breaks her block. She realizes, much like Rand, that she has to surrender to life in order to gain some semblance of control. And then she becomes the Aes Sedai that she truly is in the later books.

Just my $.02.
William Fettes
37. Wolfmage
jlyman @ 36

Yes, I accept there is a greater multi-volume journey here that works for Nynaeve, and it certainly pays off eventually, but I do still think that the continuity of her inertia downwards makes it pretty punishing to read as a Nynaeve fan.

As a character, she is basically going from dizzying heights of awesome to death by a thousand cuts until KoD, excepting the cleansing in WH. Obviously the Golden Crane arc is pretty awesome, but it doesn't do much to correct the foregoing tendency for her to be written as being at sea compared to other formidable women. I think she did have to take some of those knocks squarely on the jaw, but I think sometimes the sheer repetition of those knocks and the lack of any real push-back against Egwene comes a little too close in my mind to being Rodney Dangerfield "I don't get no respect."
Lsana
38. Wannabe Asha'man
@23

The location of the horn that only Siuan and Verin know of is a well. At some point in one of the books Matt hum/sings "at the bottom of a well" in reference to his "connected knowledge" of the location of the horn

@25

I really really like that theory and to beef up that theory it has not been mentioned/posted before, to my knowledge, and fits with clues that I have found in a certain person's review of TGS on DM.
Lsana
39. AlfredTungstan
I believe the watcher in the window was Siuan. In one of the next couple of chapters, Nynaeve and her are arguing in an alley and Siuan mentions something about Nynaeve's spying, which she wouldn't know about unless she saw her.
Jason Lyman
40. jlyman
@37. Wolfmage

being Rodney Dangerfield "I don't get no respect."

But she would be tugging her braid instead of straightening the tie.

I do agree that for those of us who like Nyneave they are difficult chapters to read. But for me it just seems so much like real life that it makes any success she garners that much more sweet.
William Fettes
41. Wolfmage
jlyman @ 40

Definitely. I just hope her new post block / honeymoon equilibrium and future successes are going to be matched by some degree of recognition and rise in stature amongst her peers and other formidable women in the next books. Egwene is absolutely lavished with praise, by comparison, so I would like to see it go a bit more Nynaeve's way.
Tess Laird
42. thewindrose
Moghedien presses her advantage, suggesting that these “so-called Aes Sedai” might decide to go back to Elaida, and turn her and Elayne over as a peace offering – especially Elayne, if al’Thor’s feelings for her are anywhere near as strong as hers for him.
Right here is where Moghedien should have had an unfortunate accident. Nyn and Elayne should have realized how harmful that information could be if it ended up in the wrong ears. Which it does, and I think we will see something come from this in one of the last three books. (You know Moggy babbled all to SH and Moridin.)
Lannis .
43. Lannis
I find it rather funny that the most recent block-holding Aes Sedai is the one to work on the next block holder found... anyone know if this is a regular chain, or is Theodrin just interested in the subject because she had the same problem? The only other mention I can remember is in the recap: Galina "beating" Tarna's block out of her...

Elayne's comment on the Bowl: "But I'm not quite strong enough to work it by myself." Understatement of the year!

I agree with Gathering Storm @ 26... these chapters felt tedious on rereads (perhaps also because I keep getting interrupted by children and keep reading the same paragraph over again, thereby NEVER getting to the end of them? Grr...) But seriously, I seem to recall feeling the lull on the first read, too, as much as Nynaeve's inner banter is entertaining, it feels like nothing gets done in these chapters, even though I know the opposite is true...

Thanks again, Leigh! :)
Tess Laird
44. thewindrose
Wolfmage - I am sure they will dedicate a statue to her, and as the wheel turns and ages come and go and all that - a young hero(who doesn't want to be a hero;)) Matty will look upon the statue and wonder, why is the woman pulling her braid.
mark Proctor
45. mark-p
25. Wetlandernw
That makes complete sense to me.
Maybe it is a spare oath rod, probably not what they were looking for but might be what they need.
I was thinking it might be the final seal. Probably wouldn't help them but it would help Rand.


39. AlfredTungstan
Siuan is a good possiblity. I thought it could be Myrelle who also seems to be trying to help Nynaeve with her block.
James Jones
46. jamesedjones
17 anthonypero

See the post from Helen@30. Or better yet, just reread the reread (summary, that is). :P
Lsana
47. tearl
RobMRobM@18
I think Halima showed up a couple of days later.

Steven Cooper's timeline tells us Halima arrives 13 days later.
Tess Laird
48. thewindrose
mark-p - Myrelle is one of the Salidar six - Suian or Leanne would make the most sense as they are the true manipulators behind the Salidar six, and would want to keep an eye on what was going on.
mark Proctor
49. mark-p
Is Mogheiden able to enter T'a'r with the a'dam on? I don't remember anyone saying anything either way.

A posibility about the forsaken icon is Sammael, from what I remember he finds out about the cache in Ebou Dar some how.

48. thewindrose
Yes it dose seem more likly it is her now.
Jason Lyman
50. jlyman
@44. thewindrose

why is the woman pulling her braid.

...and holding a crystal sphere in her other hand...? Hmmm? Hmmm? Maybe... Nah!
Rob Munnelly
51. RobMRobM
@47. Thanks, Tearl.

Re the window, it can't be Myrelle since she was still downstairs finishing up with the meeting with the other leaders.

Might be Siuan, but why would RJ highlight that. Too commonplace.

Notwithstanding Leigh, I still believe the best argument is for Tarna, as she left the meeting, probably went back up to her room and then spotted Nyn out the window - focusing her thinking about talking to her and getting her to come with her to TV.
Lsana
52. mattmick22
Release date moved up.

Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson "The Gathering Storm (Wheel of Time)"
Previous estimated arrival date: November 05 2009
New estimated arrival date: October 29 2009
Richard Fife
53. R.Fife
The icon could be used here for "Twists and Plans and Plots" instead of "Forsaken". Nynaeve plotting against Tarna, the SGs plotting against (sorta) the SAS Hall.

As to the whole comment about how Angreal and Sa'Angreal aren't really all that guarded, kinda made me chuckle. As I recall, after the Black-13 tired to steal some, they redoubled the guard on all those store rooms, didn't they? I always thought that the S.L. Dagger that Fain stole was just in a less important store room not meant for actual *angreal. Also, I'll note that the Black-13 tired and /failed/ to break into the actual Angreal and Sa'Angreal store, so there must be more than just a a novice and a lock there.

As to what could be in there, it isn't a seal: all 7 are accounted for, 4 broken, 3 with Rand. The Horn is definately somewhere in the deep dark receeses, nice and hidden, so I doubt that's it. As to actual ideas of what it could be... no clue. I kinda want to slap them for not taking a step or two more just to figure out what it could be. Oi.

And yes, the dreaded Bowl of the Winds indeed. Such a painful, long arc.

To watcher: my money is on Tarna. The meeting was over (as the ward had just popped), so she coulda been up in her room. Suian wasn't allowed in on those meetings, as I recall, so I doubt it was her.
Marcus W
54. toryx
wolfmage @ 32:

I don't have my book with me here at the moment so I can't look through it again but when I did my last re-read I looked really carefully for the scene where they exposed themselves as Aes Sedai. They did heal people but they were covert about it, and I don't recall them wearing their rings again until just before they reached Salidar after leaving the boat.

If my recollection on the latter is correct, that'd make a lot of sense wouldn't it? Two hours before they get to Salidar they reveal themselves to be Aes Sedai? I don't think so.

It's altogether possible, however, that I'm blind and completely missed the scene where they revealed their pretense but I really did watch carefully last time and I never saw it.
Richard Fife
55. R.Fife
Despite the stoning I'm about to receive here, I'm going to say that I think the Nicola/Areina disliking Nynaelayne is a bit of an authorial gaffe. Remember, RJ did have two extra warm bodies dedicated to keeping his facts and timelines straight (Maria and Alan), and even they are human and can occasionally miss things. Not to mention the retcon'ing that has gone on here and there through later editions of the books.

But hey, no one's perfect, so I just tell myself that somewhere, they found out, whatever, moving on. Or, maybe I just say that Nicola/Areina came to dislike Nynaelayne because the AS first scolded them for being run-aways then started doting on them like favored children. *shrug*

... jees I'm being posty today.
Lsana
56. TexanSedai
If Tarna is Mess, would she have recognized Moggy when she saw her? Did Tarna ever see Moggy/Marigin?

I seem to struggle with the whole "need" concept in finding the bowl of the winds. If finding what you need is that easy, why have the FS who are looking for stashes of angreal, ect not do the exact same thing? Why wouldn't they do it when there were originally freed? Also, why wouldn't Rand or the SGs use it to find something to destroy the FS or reseal the bore? It just seemed a rather convenient plot device at the time to move on to the bowl of the winds S.L.

Also - a naieve question I am sure... and this may have been discussed else where... are "pillow friends" the same as lovers? Is Areina a lesbian? Is that why she seems jealous of women and not men, and why she is later so devoted to Nicola? That was my first impression of her, but I could be wrong. Also not sure about the way "pillow friends" is described in other books.
Lsana
57. HeWhoComesWithTheNoon
@43 Lannis

Elayne's comment on the Bowl: "But I'm not quite strong enough to work it by myself." Understatement of the year!

Well remember when they put together the super-circle to use the bowl they are stressing it way beyond its design. Elayne is undoubtedly nearly strong enough to use it to affect the weather for a small village or whatever its original purpose, but her power isn't approaching the worldwide use.
James Jones
58. jamesedjones
Re: Niiiii-colaaa and Areina

The fans of Nynaeve typically love her because she's crazy and funny and constantly contradicting herself (her chapters always crack me up).

But someone mentioned in an earlier thread (and it may have been Leigh) that the folks that you know in real life like her always drive you nuts and often tick you off. It shouldn't be a stretch for two of her "friends" to just get sick of her.

56 TexanSedai

RJ covered the 'Need' issue by having one of the wise ones say how dangerous it was because you always have to do it blind. If you're a forsaken, and you see one of your cohort forsakens pop into your visit to TAR with their eyes closed, you're going to give a quick 'thank you' to the DO and torch their blind butt.

I doubt any of them are brave enough to try it, knowing this.
Lsana
59. TexanSedai
58

That makes sense...the SGs didn't have any qualms about doing it, but I can see how it would be super dangerous. But it still seems pretty convenient.

I always read it Niiiii-colaaa myself :)
Alice Arneson
60. Wetlandernw
TexanSedai @ 56

I never had much problem with the "need" thing as used. One, the Forsaken may not know about it - for all their control over what they do know, there's a lot that's been discovered over the last 3000 years that they don't know. Two, Rand also probably doesn't know about it; he's been discovering things in TAR, but he hasn't really had anyone teaching him, so he would have to have stumbled on it. At least, I'm pretty sure Egwene hasn't told him anything! Three, As for the SGs using it for "something to destroy the FS or reseal the bore", I can think of several reasons. It's not exactly "reliable" in the sense of giving you something you can understand. It also has no safeguard against dropping you into a well-guarded location where you will be made dead dead dead. This would make it dangerous to use as a method for finding something other people (read Forsaken) might know about and not want you to have. Much safer to use it to find things for which only you would see the "need". Also, at this stage of things, they're too caught in the here-and-now issues to be thinking in terms of tools to use down the way; and in any case I doubt it would occur to them that they might find a way to seal the Bore - that's Rand's job, isn't it? They are a bit stuck on themselves (as much as they still can be given being "put in their place" by the AS), but they really haven't reached such grandiose ideas at this stage.

About pillow friends, certainly being lovers is one interpretation. I suspect that it's a generic term: sometimes lovers, sometimes just close friends, in any case someone to whom you are very close and would be likely to share deep thoughts and secrets. I don't recall anything explicit about Nicola & Areina, but I thought the idea of lovers was at least implied at one point.

And of course by now 5 or 6 other people have already responded to this, I suppose...
Skip Ives
61. Skip
*passes R.Fife a jay* (@55) Feel free to cast the first and all. I think RJ just developed the Nicola story-line in this book and made up off-screen tiff to explain it to himself. Either way - it is not a major gaffe, and I agree that it doesn't really matter what we chalk it up to.

@56 TexanSedai - I really don't think this is a "pillow friends" thing. It is more of a huge need for attention and big insecurity problem, like Leigh suggests. I've known boys and girls with the issue (thankfully no adults) and it is not related to attraction.

I'm not saying that she isn't interested that way, just that the personality flaw is not related to her sexuality.

The pillow friend thing in general doesn't bother me - reverse the gender and you have many historical references. Look at any 16th century navy and say "Hello Sailor!".

I also don't get why people are confused about the "too young sitters" thing after KOD. Make a list of both the Rebel and Tower Sitters, take out the new ones, and magically you have a united tower sitter group. The "too young" group gets patted on the head and told to wait their turn and it will come. I think there is still some overlap - people the "old" sitters could not reasonably say "no" to, but I think it is only one or two people (it's been awhile since I did a list). The fact that the old sitters are the ones doing the negotiations with each other is kind of the clincher for me.
Alice Arneson
62. Wetlandernw
Skip @61, on the "too-young sitters" question...

I can certainly understand why it's a puzzle inside the story (i.e. for the characters) but one look at the online discussions (for example) made it pretty obvious pretty fast, I thought. Also fairly logical, but I sometimes wonder if both sides came up with the logic independently, or if they had a plan in place... Which doesn't seem likely, but it's awfully handy that they both did it. Maybe it just made sense to both sides in the general "hoping for reconciliation" context.
Maiane Bakroeva
63. Isilel
R.Fife @53

the Black-13 tired and /failed/ to break into the actual Angreal and Sa'Angreal store, so there must be more than just a a novice and a lock there.

Thankfully. But are the wards truly so good that even Mesaana can't get in? Or order a BA Sitter to check out an angreal or even a sa'angreal?

What I never understood is why nobody in the Shadow camp could be bothered to look for useful stuff in the Great Hold of Tear. I mean, the 13 BAs were chilling there for weeks, Be'lal resided there, Lanfear walked in and out as if at home once Rand took over, SGs and Moiraine were there for some weeks, etc. It wasn't warded from what we saw - so why didn't various channelers treat themselves? Particularly those good enough in T'AR to find stuff via Need?

For that matter, ditto all the Power stuff in Rhuidean and on peddler's wagons which was left unguarded for days at a time. IIRC RJ said that Rand warded the wagons once Moiraine was "killed", but that's too little too late. For people supposedly desperate for some hardware the FS certainly didn't try very hard to find it.

Re: something in the WT - maybe a male binder? The Oath Rod is white, so quite possibly it only works on female channelers and a male one would be black.

Beonin is for waiting - well given that we now know that she was Elaida's plant, no wonder. Doubtlessly she thought that it would take forever for Egwene to reach them and SAS would fall apart by then.

BTW, speaking of 13:13 turning to the shadow, I am kinda surprised that Taim didn't yet procure or been given the requisite number of female DF channelers to implement mass turnings. OTOH, RJ said somewhere that bonding a Myrdraal would quickly drive a Dreadlord bond-holder mad, so maybe too much linking with Fades would too? And turning is reserved only for exceptional cases?

IIRC Tarna's POV in KoD was surprisingly sensible and showed no DF tendencies, Galina's early interest in her notwithstanding.

Oh, and SGs general inability to actually kill various BAs and Femsaken they tangle with gets on my nerves. Moggy knows a ton of dangerous stuff here... and they'll let her escape. I mean, it stands to reason that a FS would talk somebody into removing her collar eventually. Particularly one who can influence people through dreamwalking and all the evil things possible with it!
Antoni Ivanov
64. tonka
Actually the only overlap is in the Brown Ajah where there are 4 suitable Sitters - Shevan , Saerin, Takima , Janya. But Saerin is close to retirement and maybe that's why.

Or Magla, Faiselle, Saroiya, Takima and Varilin were sent by their Ajah Heads (the original ones in the White Tower) and Janya is the only one who joined the rebels by her own so the Browns in the Tower decided to deprive Janya from the Sitter Chair. Ok that's unlikely. Saerin's retirement must be.

And one very long but very well-made theory about the too young Sitters mystery Read Here
Lsana
65. TexanSedai
Thanks to those who answered my questions! This board is great!!! The answers to questions and theories are great and help me better understand the books!

Just to clarify -I do not have any problem with any kind of "pillow friend" I was curious because sometimes I do not pick up on "intended" meanings and sometimes I read too much into non-issues.

@63 -
With your reference to 13/13 another question popped into my head. If 13 can turn an unwilling person to the dark, can the reverse be true as well and a person be turned unwillingly to the light?

Thanks!!!!
Rob Munnelly
66. RobMRobM
TS @65 and earlier. Pillow friends in WoT land implies a same sex romantic/sexual relationship - not just close friends. Apparently happens a lot in the White Tower with Novices/Accepteds (a la Moiraine and Siuan in New Spring), not so much thereafter (apparently except for Reds, such as Elaida and Galina (as discussed in KoD)).

Edit - E and G chased after different women, not each other.

Re whether Nicola and Areina are pillow friends, they are certainly incredibly close friends from here through KoD and could be pillow friends -- if I had to bet I'd say yes -- but I'm not aware of any textual confirmation.

Rob
Lsana
67. junior1234
Like alot of people, I'v never been happy with Jordan's depiction of Nyn in this book as floundering and weak and just so desperately in need of Egwene's awesomeness to tell her what to do. In their meetings in the last books in Dreamworld, Egwene was a lying, manipulative, petty coward around Nyn and Elayne. Maybe they didnt notice it, but the readers could.

Jordan has some interesting moments with the male/female issues in these books. But one thing that is consistent: Boy heroes get character development by being awesome. Girl heroes are awesome, and then get character development by being embarassed/humiliated/weakened.
Skip Ives
68. Skip
@62 Wetlandernw Yeah, I agree, and I was a minor part of the Usenet discussions that were written up into that FAQ entry. Also, nice ref tonka @64. This all also folds into some of the Purple Ajah theories, depending on who you talk to. *gets his tinfoil hat*

I pretty much stopped following the WOT discussion when rawsfjr hit the skids, but at the time there was much confusion about the sitter thing.

Leigh's comment brought back memories, so I apologize if much of the "mystery" is long solved. And the Sitter thing was mild - you would not believe the number of people who did not believe Taimadred was dead even after the Big D's POV. And Sammy "Is he really dead?" *shiver*
Rob Munnelly
69. RobMRobM
The Young Sitter Mystery post was incredibly impressive, and accords with common sense (i.e., you don't want to appoint truly qualified sitters otherwise you'd have a potential clash of personalities that would interfere with the overarching interest in reuniting the White Tower; so you appoint young'uns who can be safely dropped once reunification occurs). I also like the twist that the old sisters grabbed control over the reunification talks and likely dimed out Egwene in order to prevent her from spiking the chains and giving the rebels an over-strong hand that might impede reunification. A minor mystery solved.

Rob
Lsana
70. thxdsai
@65 in regards to #63

While I don't exactly have documented proof in front of me, I have thought if it would be possible to do something similar to 13/13 darkturn.

About the best evidence I can give for it being possible is when Rand severs the ethereal black cord linking Asmodean to the Dark One.

The only crux to this that I find is two-fold.

1st
When Ingtar confesses his crimes to Rand at the end of "The Great Hunt", there is mention that no one can be so far gone in the shadow as to not be redeemed by the light.

I may be taking liberties in what was actually said, in which case I'm sure I'll be corrected.

2nd
Rand severed the black cord leading to Ishmael at the end of the "Eye of the World", but I seriously doubt that Ishy was forced to the light because of that.

All in all however, I'd have to say that it is not possible for the light to force someone to its side from the dark. It has to be a choice made by the individual perhaps.
Thomas Keith
71. insectoid
Oh boy, new post!

re: Bucket of water
Pretty funny in hindsight.

re: Nicola and Areina:
Irritating. The only redeeming things I can recall about Nicola are her first Foretelling, and her support of Eg in KoD. Blackmailing, however, is a load of choss!

Moghedien re: tonka@2 and others
Wouldn't Rand only recognize Moggy if she didn't have her Illusion disguise on?

Tarna: Has to be the only Red I've come close to liking as a character...except maybe Pevara.

Schadenfreude: Heh. Are you referring to Elayne's encounter with the red rod?

KoD: I may skim through this sometime before TGS comes out.

mattmick22@52:
My mother got the same response from Amazon.com. Personally, I think Amazon is being lazy! (Of course, that's not to say it couldn't arrive 2 days early.)
Hurin Smells
72. HurinSmells
The reason Ny and El keep jumping around the Tower for their "1st need" is because Egwene is there in T'A'R. This is resolved in the very next chapter which is Eg's POV, and she mentions that she kept having to jump away because Ny and El kept showing up. Problem solved.

EDIT: spelling
William Fettes
73. Wolfmage
junior1234 @ 67

"...just so desperately in need of Egwene's awesomeness to tell her what to do. In their meetings in the last books in Dreamworld, Egwene was a lying, manipulative, petty coward around Nyn and Elayne. Maybe they didnt notice it, but the readers could."

Yes, that juxtaposition does makes it extra grating because Egwene never gets any real comeuppance.


"Jordan has some interesting moments with the male/female issues in these books. But one thing that is consistent: Boy heroes get character development by being awesome. Girl heroes are awesome, and then get character development by being embarassed/humiliated/weakened."

Interesting point. I'm not sure I would put it quite that strongly, and I certainly don't share Isilel's critique, but there's an element of truth there. The Super Girls seem have a longer rite of passage being subject to the arbitrary power of others, as well as lots more plot inflection points of embarrassment and humiliation, compared to the Super Boys. Egwene is probably a bit of an exception to this, despite the Wise One's punishment and her time as a captive.
Lsana
74. Sonofthunder
I never did understand that red rod. Did we ever find out what actually happened to Elayne???
Alice Arneson
75. Wetlandernw
Sonofthunder @ 74

Meh. RJ left it open, with no more than a clear implication that she embarrassed herself beyond belief - or would have if she'd been able to remember. Guesses at what she actually did are usually based on how filthy the reader's mind is. I think RJ left it unspecified on purpose, so that you can fill in the blank based on what you would find most embarrassing.

*edit for spelling. Oops.
Lsana
76. twicemarked
About the "too young sitter" theory. While I certainly believe that is the intent, I just do not think it would actually work in the end.

It is like the original Hall wants to put Humpty-Dumpty together again, and pretend the splits never happened. Given how well those original sitters handeled things, I can see their plot failing completely, or achieve the original hall only to be pulled down entirely by a rebellion from the regular sisters, like described in the secret WT history.
Tess Laird
77. thewindrose
One thing to think about with the sitter situation. TG is almost here, and the Tower is not mended. I think it will out of neccessity fold the way it has been portrayed by the two sitter discussions we have read - there won't be time for politicing! Afterwards(TG) there may be some serious dicussions though.
Jay Dauro
78. J.Dauro
TexanSedai @56
Wetlandernw @60

Wot Wiki
Pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.

-- Robert Jordan's Blog
john massey
79. subwoofer
Hello all! Hi Leigh! Good times- I too have a bowl of the winds. I have a littler matching one and I either serve salsa and nachos or chips and dip in it. Very handy. Haven't figured out the weather changing feature though.

“I am not very good at surrendering,” said. Unless there was no point in fighting, anyway. Only a fool went on where there was no chance at all. She could not breathe under water, she could not fly by flapping her arms


Typical Ny- had she of figured this out, Ny would not of almost drowned etc to remove her block. Stubborn as the day is long. One may even say woolheaded.

Speaking of woolheaded- maybe Rand is ring-hunting in the Tower and he read in one of his books where the RoT is... not to mention the Horn thingy.

On a personal note, I really want to read the next book, but my inherent cheapskateness says hold out for Costco and then get it at half price.
Anthony Pero
80. anthonypero
@subwoofer:

Try the public Library. If you request it, they may actually get it the month it comes out, since it will debut at #1 on every bestseller list out there.
Captain Hammer
81. Randalator
Sonofthunder @74
wetlanderw @75

RJ left it open, with no more than a clear implication that she embarrassed herself beyond belief - or would have if she'd been able to remember. Guesses at what she actaully did are usually based on how filthy the reader's mind is.

Or based on how filthy the author's mind was. In WH, ch. 12 while Elayne is doing the naughty with Rand, Birgitte says that in order to dull her warder senses she intends "to get drunk enough to . . . well . . . to take off my clothes and dance on the table. And not a hair drunker."

To which Aviendha replies that this is "a wonderful joke". So if you want to know what Elayne did while red-rodded, do the math.

It seems this thing is a bit like alcohol. Only more fun and without the hangover...
Alice Arneson
82. Wetlandernw
subwoofer - How long is the wait if you get it at Costco? If my pre-order that I think I did falls through, I may try that... Don't know if I can wait, though.

On the Tower split/Sitter mystery, I have to confess that I hadn't worked all the way through it until today. Oddly enough, except for Red and Blue (for obvious reasons) EACH Ajah had ONE pre-coup Sitter in Salidar. Hmmm. Ya think? (I hadn't put that together until today. Others did, of course.)

So it's fairly obvious that they were sent by their Ajahs to maintain some control and specifically, if needed, to seat new Sitters-in-exile who would later (upon reunification) logically defer to the "senior" Sitters who had remained in the Tower. Then... hey presto, you've got exactly the same Hall you had before the coup, minus the Blue sister who died in said coup.

The argument is strengthened by whats-his-bucket (in tonka's link @64) carefully going through and noting the ways and issues on which those five Sitters (Green, Yellow, Brown, White and Gray) stand together. Yeah, they start to look pretty much like a team...

Nothing there you probably hadn't already figured out or read in the various fora, but for those who haven't had a chance yet, there it is in a nutshell.

(Now then, no namecalling, please. I know, but it's not nice to say so.)
Lsana
83. tshania_sedai
I know a lot of people are annoyed with Nynaeve's apparent weakness in these chapters, but I feel like she feels desperate for direction in her desire to be useful. Being an Accepted is a lot like being a grad student - you are expected to do brilliant research that is new and novel and exciting. Nynaeve knows what she wants to do, but with little or no support, she is not finding it possible to make any progress. In addition, Elayne (who hasn't been an Accepted for as long) is making wonderful progress with the ter'angreal and even teaching Aes Sedai (despite her complaints, this is a big deal). In addition, Novices can channel at will, which is something basic that Nynaeve still cannot do. I can very much sympathize with Nynaeve that nothing is really working right and she feels like she is wasting her time and other people's time as well. Nynaeve says that she would get angry at others for being sick, but we all know she really gets angry at herself for not being able to cure them. For her, an appealing move would be to run away and find somewhere that she feels useful and needed. It is hard for her to go from the real world with obvious goals (prevent BA from finding sad bracelets...) where what she is doing is clearly important to doing "research" that, although the Aes Sedai say is wonderful, Nynaeve herself feels is not so important (especially since she is basically cheating off a Forsaken). So while the whole flailing bit is not so fun to read, the reasons for it are very apparent and I feel very characteristic of what Nynaeve would do.
Pete Pratt
84. PeteP
Nicola and Ariena are pillow friends -- I think Eg mentions something in CoT or KoD. Two of the most annoying characters in tWoT.

These chapters really annoyed me, though a little less so on my last re-read. Unfortunately, these chapters set up the slow periods in the coming books, when too much talking and not enough doing takes place.
Alice Arneson
85. Wetlandernw
PeteP @ 84, in KoD chapter 24, "they seemed so close that Egwene wondered whether they had become pillow-friends."

tshania_sedai @ 83 - Well said. I think you've hit on a lot of the reasons for the way Nynaeve behaves here, and I agree that it's totally understandable. Frustrating and irritating to some, indeed, but still very much in character.

Randalator @ 81 - I suppose you can draw that connection, but I don't think it's necessary. I totally think RJ did what really good writers do, and what is most effective on a wide scale - leave it to the reader's imagination. If you get specific, you run into problems with perception: too tame, and half your readers are going "yeah, so? no big deal" and think you're dull; too risque, and half your readers, blushing 17 shades of red, decide they aren't really interested in your books after all. Much, much more effective to drop a few hints and let each reader decide for himself - or not, if they just don't care about the details that much. It's not like it has any actual effect on the plot. You just get the fun of knowing that Elayne did something so totally off the wall (and clearly worth at least 17 shades of red!) that her friends refuse to tell her what it even was. Get your chuckles and move on.
Lsana
86. whatusername
Thanks for those links re: the 5 Sitters in the Rebels..

What I don't understand is this: Those were 5 of the 6 (Non-Blue) Sitters that weren't invited to depose Siuan. We seem to have a conspiracy of Ajah Heads + the work of Elaida/Alviarin/Danelle but the two don't seem to be working together.

Can someone explain? Was it just good luck for the Ajah Heads that at least 1 from each Ajah wasn't invited?
Lsana
87. twicemarked
thewindrose @ 77
Hmmm, is there any evidence the original sitters would be of any help to Rand and the light? They are prone to pull strings for WT advantage after Rand is gone rather than help with TG. Just like what both embassies to Rand tried to do.

Besides, Siuan has noticed at least part of the pattern. Do you really believe Siuan will fail to puzzle out and disrupt this plan? I am not doubting the plot. I just don't think it will come into fruition. The united WT Hall made up entirely by too-young sitters would do a better job at handling TG than a Hall made up by the original sitters.

Actually, I believe the hall will actually expand to add WO sitters, Wind Finder sitters, Asha'man sitters, seanchan sitters, etc. A hall with many too0young sitters would have much less resistance than a hall with the original sitters. They are not about to allow new people in after all the plotting they have done.
Roger Powell
88. forkroot
subwoofer@79
I too have a bowl of the winds. I have a littler matching one and I either serve salsa and nachos or chips and dip in it. Very handy. Haven't figured out the weather changing feature though.
Try serving bean dip in your "bowl of the winds".
Andrew Lovsness
89. drewlovs
Posting without reading other comments here, so as always, forgive me if I'm repeating anyone else. I try to do this when I have something to say; otherwise, I just respond to other... responders.

For some reason, I really have a hard time disliking Tarna. In fact, you could say that she is the Red Sister that explains the value of her Ajah. Sure, we see other reds in later books that are meant to be liked, but Tarna is a mover 'n shaker in the Red Ajah, and makes no bones about the pride she has for said Ajah.

I liken it to Brett Farve of the Greenbay Packers in pro football. No matter how bad he beat my Minnesota Vikings, I respected the heck out of the guy. Joe Montana was another, if you are not a Forty-niner fan.

My point is, she is professional and very honest in her own way. I have heard of the forsaken rumors, but I do not think she is Mesaana. We are supposed to be angy with her here, but she is doing the right thing in her eyes. She doesn't know the dirty little secrets on how Elaida got her position (well.. she doesn't know as much as we do), and in her mind, this whole rebel thing is the Blue Ajah having a temper tantrum over their leader's removal. In fact, its worst in her eyes, since the Blue Ajah is bound and determined to split the White Tower over it.
Andrew Lovsness
90. drewlovs
BTW... I don't have my copy of LoC for reference, but doesn't Aran’gar show up right around this time? If I am right, I wouldn't be surprised if the "woman watching Nynaeve unseen" IS Aran’gar, looking to find the best opportunity to release Moggy.

But then, that might not happen for another 10 chapters, and if so, all this has been for naught. I'm moving, you see, and all my precious books are in a box somewhere; I can't check on ANYTHING!!
Antoni Ivanov
91. tonka
@82. Wetlandernw

No it was 8 Sitters who left the White Tower and one died-
2 from the Blue (and one dead from Blue) -Lelaine and Lyrelle
2 from Brown (yes two) - Takima & Janya
1 from Gray -Varilin
1 from Yellow - Magla
1 from White - Saroiya
1 from Green - Faiselle
0 from Red

86.whatusername

There is one more Sitter from the White who didn't get invited by Elaida but she decided to go back in the Tower - Seaine.

So the Sitter that were not invited were 2 Brown and White and 1 from Yellow ,Gray and Green. It seems pretty believable to me.And later the Heads of all 5 Ajahs decides to send one of their Sitters, who weren't invited, to Salidar . Janya decides on her own to go to Salidar and Seaine decides on her own to stay in the White Tower.

Elaida invited 12 Sitters - the bare minimum but she doesn't want to risk of course. SO she invites only the 12 she is most sure of.
(Btw therefore we can assume that none of the Sitters, who weren't invited(except for the Blue,read below), is Black Ajah, because if they were Alviarin would have invited them to vote for Elaida)

As for the Blue , none of the Blue was informed because of the Law. The Law says that if the deposing of Amyrlin is set before the Hall, the Sitters from the previous Amyrlin's Ajah can't participate.

Yes I use "invite" loosely. The truth is that the the 7 Sitters were not informed that the Hall is called.
Maiane Bakroeva
92. Isilel
I am a staunch proponent of the "too young Sitters" theory. Hopefully TGS will finally tie the Tower split storyline and we'll see how it all plays out. I wonder whether the Ajahs would have protected their undercover Sitters if the WT managed to reunite under Elaida or whether the 5 of them have accepted taking one for the team in order to reunite the Tower. Are Sitters immune from prosecution?

Re: a young Hall doing better, let's not forget that a lot of bungling AS we'll be exposed to from now on are relatively young, starting with Elaida herself and the unforgettable Alanna, and even in the SAS Hall "traditional" Sitters lacking hidden agenda like Moria and Janya seem quite sensible.

Also, there is the problem that young Sitters are unlikely to step down for a century or so. I mean, I am not sure why even traditional Sitters step down, given the vast change in their pecking order position that results - which is bound to be hard on capable, but not very OP-strong individuals. Given that AS don't really grow old and feeble, I'd have thought that most would prefer to keel over in office.

Drewlovs - I like Tarna also, but mostly retroactively from her later POVs. Here her behavior is depicted ambiguously and we are meant to suspect her of being evil.
Lsana
93. Lurker Above
I pre-ordered the book from Borders and I Got it fro 40% off. $17.99 instead of $29.99
Lord Haart
94. LordHaart
"Words that start with “v” are cool."

Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.

Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :)
Lsana
95. alreadymadwithredpride
junior1234 @67
Boy heroes get character development by being awesome. Girl heroes are awesome, and then get character development by being embarassed/humiliated/weakened.
I suspect this is because Randland as a whole has been largely female dominated. Every female you encounter on the series generally starts out thinking she's the sh1t and men are useless. You have to beat that out of them before you can get something good out of them.

drewloves @89
May I add that Tarna shows pride in her Ajah without being overly arrogant about it. Unlike other purportedly Red sisters.
Tess Laird
96. thewindrose
twicemarked @87-
I think your idea of an after TG mix to be quite believable - a return to the Aes Sedei of AoL.
Before hand - I just think it is not possible for things to unfold other than the way they have been set up to unfold.
First - the Tower is not even united yet.
Second either Egwene or Elaida is going to come out on top - foreshadowing and the way I read it - it would be Egwene(I like Tarna - it would be cool if Egwene kept her and may heal the rift between blue and red).
Also we have the Seanchan to worry about.
So all of this before TG. I don't there will be time for any debates.
After TG - yes lots of things will change.
First, we have TG itself - a lot of Sisters - including Sitters are going to die. The Aes Sedei will not be sitting this one out - they will all be involved.
Second, if Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat she wants to get all chanelers involved with the Tower(some of her idea's won't make it, but I see a time for the Tower that will be like the AoL. Hopefully, she will give up on the Binder - when they all find out what its real use is.
Maiane Bakroeva
97. Isilel
@95:

I suspect this is because Randland as a whole has been largely female dominated.

Not IMHO. What Randland on the whole has is equality, though fraught with sexism. Women have the OP, the use of which is limited in various ways and is available only to a small minority, while men have military power power, which is not and is also much more broadly accessible to them.

You have to beat that out of them before you can get something good out of them.

IMHO, it has the opposite effect - since they have shit beaten out of them, they think that they have the right and moral duty to beat it out of everybody else ;). I dare say that they would have been much more relaxed without it - as the guys are.
Lsana
99. Kimmyanne77
@90 drewlovs

I agree with you. I always thought the woman watching Nynaeve was Halima (thus the Forsaken icon), checking out the situation in Salidar before she introduced herself into it.
Rob Munnelly
100. RobMRobM
@90 and 99 - H didn't show up until 13 days later. Given security in Salidar and her notable appearance, hard to imagine she'd be able to be position to look at the scene in person from Salidar house. Has to be Tarna thinking of the need to approach Nyn before she left. R
Skip Ives
101. Skip
Which was already stated earlier by RobMRobM and terl @47. People, please read the earlier comments. To not do so implies that you find our time of less value than yours.
Marcus W
102. toryx
RobMRobM @ 100:

Hard to imagine that Halima is in Salidar before she officially arrives? I don't think so.

A Forsaken would be able to Skim or Travel straight into town without any warder, guard or Aes Sedai knowing it. Especially since Halima channels Saidin rather than Saidar. Not even Moghedian would know she's there, hiding behind weaves to disguise herself.

It actually makes a great deal of sense for her to arrive early to get a feel for what's going on, communicate with any BA she wants to talk to (or leave messages for them) and only then make her entrance.

There's absolutely no evidence either way that I know of, but it's a good opportunity for foreshadowing.
Lsana
103. twicenarked
Thewindrose

What is the track record of events go according to plan in WOT? A central theme of the WOT is that no plan survives entirely after first contact with reality, both militarily and politically.

No need to mention all the evil plots. How about Moiraine's plan to present the Horn to Illian? Or Rand's plan to deal with renagade Asha'man on his own, or clease the True Source without an escort? Or Egwene's plan to seal the harbors? Or Elayne's plan to capture the BA?

What makes you think this particular Ajah Head plan is going to work as planned? In well written stories, once you can clearly see a plot coming, you should always expect a twist somewhere. I expect the plan to fail utterly. Not to mention the multiple BA sitters from the original hall needs to be purged, besides Delana.

BTW, I also expect Egwene's plan for the Kin, and the Three Oath to change for the same reason. Remember Elayne "united" Andor and it was not relying on the old support Morgase used to have. To me, that is a model of how the united White Tower looks like. A new, different alliance, not the same old, same old.

Isilel @ 97

You could be on to something here. Today, those who had been spanked in their youth often find spanking to be a reasonable method to disciplin children.

It is like hazing. Everyone before had gone through it, so every new member must also go through it.
Skip Ives
104. Skip
twicenarked @103 (re @97) - I see your point, though you make another RJ point here. It is amazing the short amount of time it takes for something to become "the way it is done". Take top-posting a reply for instance.

Also, times and mores change. When my great-grandfather past, my father took and kept his grandfather's leather razor strop. The strop was what he had used to spank my father and his other grandkids. Yet I can't ever remember my father spanking me, though I'm sure I was at least once or twice.

toryx @102 - I see your point, though why not use a BA or DF until Halima was ready to make her entrance? I can't see risking her cover on something so small. My comment @101 wasn't to cut off this discussion, just to point out that people already asked the basic question.
T C
105. Freelancer
Leigh,

First of all, being a real Valley Dude, I have to say "Phaw!". And like, the Galleria totally hasn't been a shopping mall in like, twelve gnarly years!

The woman at the window: No clue who it is. I don’t know that we ever find out, or that it matters, except that I highly doubt it was Tarna.

First view of HalimAranThamel as the watcher in the window. Too mysterious to be anybody else, and through an admittedly thin linkage method, the last female watcher in windows we know of was Lanfear (several times during TGH, plus a few T'a'R occurences in Emond's Field), so another female forsaken is suggested.

On Areina, I always supposed that her "possessiveness" of Birgitte as friend, the indifference to interactions with men, while also sticking to Nicola like peas in a pod, was meant to suggest that she likes girls. NTTAWWT



Wetlandernw@25 get the cigar. The first need walk Elayne and Nynaeve do does indeed take them to something that could be helpful. Let's say something higher on the list of helpfulness than the Bowl. But they can't go there to get whatever it is, so they don't zero in on the item. A little shortsighted, sadly. They should have employed the same method and pinpointed that object that was so significant before they included an exclusion of Tar Valon to their trek. (Hah, included an exclusion. Pull that off in everyday conversation)


The Sitter Mystery

I nearly gave up on that one twice, it was so convoluted and dispersed through the story, as well as happening in two places with different casts of characters. But it's a puzzle, and I can't let those go. If Verin's 70-year plan is high on my list of things to know about, this bubbled to the top until I diagrammed it out. So sad to know that the work had already been done. But anyone that cares can see that Jordan left enough information here and there in POVs and dialog quotes that it was always solvable. No red herrings, no unfilled gaps.

The five non-Blue previous Tower Sitters never failed to agree on major issues in Salidar, and always in the direction of reuniting the Aes Sedai no matter what. He made sure to refer to them in different orders in each event so that it wasn't obvious, but they are most certainly a team. It's harder to sort out those in Tar Valon, partly because of lesser name recognition of the characters, partly because of the all other intrigues happening there, but the formula works out the same. I love how there's a wild card in each camp that makes it just that much harder to confirm the suspicions of those who see the pattern, but aren't sure at first what the pattern is or means. Sneaky author, sneaky like Verin.


forkroot@88

You're a stinker.
Rob Munnelly
106. RobMRobM
toryx@102. I don't find that likely at all. In the book, H shows up and goes right to the key darkfriend. Harder to imagine she'd come, ignore the key darkfriend, wait two weeks then come back. More importantly, while Tarna has a definite interest in Nyn sufficient for RJ to highlight in the text and follow up virtually immediately; H does not. Absent any H effort to interact with Nyn, and I don't recall any, the theory has too many farfetched elements. But keep em coming - they make the blog fun.

Only thing going for it is the Foresaken icon. At this point, my best theory is that the chapter centers on Nyn's efforts to figure out whether she should leave -- in accord with Moggy's plot - or not.

Rob
Antoni Ivanov
107. tonka
Yes the Forsaken Icon in this chapter - it's not Halima, if she shows at all it is in the previous chapter. I thought it might be Tarna but KOD and her POV throw this out of the window. So the question still stands : Why RJ use that icon here?
Rob Munnelly
108. RobMRobM
Tonka - Good catch on the woman in window is last chapter not this chapter point. Guess it has to be my last para: it's the spin out of Moggy's plot to get out of Salidar, perhaps supplemented by the RFife concept that other tricksy plots are being woven. Pretty thin but that's what we have.
Marcus W
109. toryx
RobMRobM @ 106:

So you don't think it'd make sense for Halima to get a lay of the land before she saunters into town?

Bathamel headed up one of the intelligence networks for the Shadow in the AoL. I think it's reasonable to assume that such a person, going into a town filled with channelers, would want to know as much about it and the people there as possible before diving in. That becomes more true when you consider that Halima had a role to play; she obviously knew enough about Cabriana for her cover story to be effective, but she'd likely want to fill in as many gaps as possible, if only by finding out might be a danger to her (like Anaiya).

Furthermore, if part of Halima's task in Salidar was to free Moghedian, finding the women who held her captive and observing their movements is tactically sound. That's the sort of thing someone who used to handle intelligence would consider important. So she has very good reason to watch Nynaeve.

If it was Tarna doing the watching, why didn't she take advantage of what she learned? She could have used that in her confrontation with Nynaeve and Elayne. Instead, no reference was made to that event in either the confrontation or in any POV chapter later on (that I am aware of).

In the end, as Leigh says, it doesn't really make any difference. It may be that RJ didn't have much use for it other than to heighten Nynaeve's paranoia. But it could also have served as foreshadowing for Halima's arrival, making it a much more potent event.

Edit: Always catching typos too late.
Helen Peters
110. Helen
65. TexanSedai
If 13 can turn an unwilling person to the dark, can the reverse be true as well and a person be turned unwillingly to the light?

The problem would be to find 13 fades willing to turn someone to the light. :)

RobM @100 Security may be tight but at that point security knew nothing about Travelling so couldn't secure against it.

Also using need to find things in TAR. Was this a universally known thing back in AOL, or is it something the wise ones found out for themselves? A waterhole dries up and the WO dreamwalker in TAR shuts her eyes and in frustration thinks 'where's the water?' and when opens her eyes it's in front of her. This is something they could have figured out by themselves. Then the forsaken cannot use as they don't know about it.

The ter'angreal stash in Tear and other places; I thought the forsaken had already searched most of those for bits they deemed valuable, they seem to have found themselves glow bulbs and Sammy (I think) mentioned, or thought about, what he'd found in a stasis box, I just assumed that they'd all been found in angreal stashes, for some reason it seems like the most logical place for them to be.
Alice Arneson
111. Wetlandernw
toryx @109 - In the end, as Leigh says, it doesn't really make any difference. It may be that RJ didn't have much use for it other than to heighten Nynaeve's paranoia.

Nitpick: it couldn't heighten Nynaeve's paranoia, because she didn't know about it. "Neither saw the woman watching them from a second-story window." So it could only heighten our paranoia on her behalf. Still, I agree; it doesn't really make any difference to the story, since we haven't (as far as we know) seen any repercussions from it. If it was Tarna, it could come up again back in the WT in tGS; otherwise, we'll probably never learn any more.
Captain Hammer
112. Randalator
Toryx @109

Bathamel headed up one of the intelligence networks for the Shadow in the AoL.

Which makes it all the more likely that he didn't lurk around in Salidar for two weeks. Spymasters usually have informants working for them. That's why they're heading the networks in the first place.
Rob Munnelly
113. RobMRobM
Re the window: I still think it's Tarna for the reasons discussed above.

Best argument for Halina if Freelancer's (?) point that we have a pattern of female Foresaken looking at our heroes through windows -- not just Lanfear but also Moggy on numerous occasions and RJ is trying to create an illusion of creepiness. But still - even if she travels into the village or vicinity, there are practical problems. She can show up in disguise and with power inverted but she's still a stranger who would be accosted if seen by anybody. Apart from sitting and looking around from a window, assuming she can get there without notice and is not discovered, there's not much she could do. So, if you believe that she would show up just to get a visual before she shows up live two weeks later, feel free to believe it is Halima. I still don't. Rob
Kristina Blake
114. kab1
I don't have much to add, but wanted to say thanks for the links to previous discussions on the too young sitter and other heads of ajah mysteries/secrets. Very enjoyable! I honestly hadn't thought about these too much, and wow, it was great so see what others had puzzled out!! If only Siuan had access to these links...


@ drewlovs, well now you get Brett Farve and the Vikes. I too am a Vikes fan and I think it'll be a bit weird to watch!
Lannis .
115. Lannis
subwoofer @ 79 & Wetlander @ 82: It's been my experience that Costco (at least in Ontario) puts out new releases on the release date... Knife of Dreams at half price on release day FTW!
Antoni Ivanov
116. tonka
And spymasters know that sometimes their own eyes can tell much better than all of their informants.

I am not saying it was Halima, I am talking about spymasters.


As for the ter'angreal/angreal stashes. Well I agree with Helen , there are a lot of things that the Forsaken have that must have gotten from these stashes like stasis boxes or that female angreal that Sammael had and it later went to Graendal .Forsaken with angreal, yeah I don't like it.

Actually they probably got all this only from Tear. You must be really naive to think that Rand had not set any protection around Rhuidean stuff even before they reached Cairhien and Moiraine was there too. And she seems to be a match for a Forsaken in wits (she outed two of them). Neither she would leave them unprotected.And Rand might be sucky at healing but he seems to have a talent to make pretty damn nice wards even when not inverted. I mean if could scare off every one of the Forsaken of touching Collandor, the kid got a talent.

As for the White Tower I guess that a couple of circles of 13 can make wards as strong as Rand's or close to at least :). And it seems logical that almost all angreal and sa'angreal will be in the White Tower. After all they might let the Tairen lords to keep ter'angreals who they have no idea what they do but do you really think that they would let them keep (sa')angreal . No, no. They won't.
Marcus W
117. toryx
wetlandernw @ 111:

Oops you're right. I even knew that too, but was so focused on the issue that I'd forgotten. Which makes the little comment even more mysterious. What the heck is the purpose for it, then?

Randalator @ 112:

Since Bathamel/ Halima has been out of action pretty much since the beginning, it's not exactly as though he's likely to have a lot of informants available to do it.

Even if that weren't the case, she is no longer the spymaster but the infiltrator and assassin. She's playing a different role now and she'll still want as much hands on information as she can get. And you don't just walk into a situation like that without having first hand information. Which, as former head of one of the networks, she knows very well.

Anyway, looks like we've beaten this horse to death.
Jane Smyth
118. Kaboom
This discussion of Halima possibly being the watcher (although I don't actually believe it) got me thinking of when Halima freed Moghedien. Since Moghedien was always disguised with inverted weaves and essentially behaved as a servant, how did Halima recognized her for freeing? Or more precisely, how did the DO know to tell her?
Tess Laird
119. thewindrose
OK - Just wanted to add that I was originally from the Whitefish Bay Sept of the Wisconsin Aiel and my old sept and clan are none too happy about the Farve situation. And I have to add, that whenever I am in a mall or Target like place - there are all these Viking items with the number 4 on them. My husband is coaching third grade football this fall, and he has had at least 1/2 the teams parents calling requesting that their son could have the #4 jersey. Crazy!!!

Also, did anyone think it may be Bela looking out the window? Just kidding;)

What about one of our two least favorite blackmailers(blackmailing is a load of choss!!) - Nicola or Ariena?
Antoni Ivanov
120. tonka
Kaboom - There is no lack-of-communication problem among the Forsaken since Moridin took charge. They know much more than the Light side does. After all it might not be apparent for some but the DO is winning this War , and he is winning it with ease so far. So unless something changed and we know it will change, the DO is on track of sure victory.
Jane Smyth
121. Kaboom
Tonka
I don't doubt that the DO is winning at the moment, but even he (or whatever it is)cannot just simply know everything that happens in the world. I was curious on what exactly gave Moghedien away.

*edit to be more precise
Jay Dauro
122. J.Dauro
Tonka @120

Do you really think that Grendal and Demondred are telling Moriden everything they know? I don't.
Marcus W
123. toryx
thewindrose @ 119:

What about one of our two least favorite blackmailers(blackmailing is a load of choss!!) - Nicola or Ariena?

Now that's a real possibility. I think Nicola may have been in a class at that point but it could easily have been Ariena.

Re: The Forsaken knowing where Moghedian is:

It's altogether possible that someone was able to find her using the tel'aran'rhiod or dream walking. In fact, I think it's likely that Moridin was able to find Moghedian's dreams, look in them, and figure it out from that. Whether or not they knew at the time Halima was sent in or not, I don't know.
Kurt Lorey
124. Shimrod
While I was thinking about the 2nd floor watcher, I thought perhaps Carlinya Sedai might be a suspect. But, since she was in the Little Tower just a few minutes previously, I discarded that notion.

Still, some interesting factoids about Carlinya (according the the WOT encyclopedia).

She has no Warder. Not necessarily indicative of anything, but curious for an Aes Sedai contemporary of Sheriam, Suian and Moiraine.

Min seems to have had a viewing of Carlinya with a tattoo of a raven floating next to her hair. Interesting that ravens are used as spies by the DO. I considered the Seekers, but they also have a tattoo of a Tower along with the Raven.

The detail about how she committed exactly one minor infraction a month while a Novice and an Accepted, so as not to appear a prig. Very White Ajah-like, I suppose.

Same with her having a cold demeanor. White-like, but interesting all the same.

Remember Sheriam ruing the day she confided in somone (who was then beating information out of her). Carlinya has to be a suspect in that, but I suppose it can wait until we get to that part.


No enough evidence to prove anything, but when considered together very interesting.
Lsana
125. twicemarked
I thought Harriet was the one who selected Chapter Names and icons, rathen than RJ. So maybe she made a mistake here using the forsaken icon.
Roger Powell
126. forkroot
Freelancer@105
forkroot@88

You're a stinker.
Au contraire, my friend, I am hardly worthy of the title. Cue the music from "The Waiting" by Tom Petty...

Oh I've had gas, but never like this
When I break wind, it's a gentleman's hiss
But I was minding my own business at a rest'rant last night
When the waiter and the busboy got in sort of a fight
They were using pocket lighters, making flatulence ignite
And they wanted to me say which flame was longer
(longer! yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah)

The waiter cut the hardest fart
It left a burn mark on a nearby serving cart
He puckered his butt, he blew his pants apart
The W-AY-TER cut the hardest fart!

--
With deepest apologies to Mr Petty (and to everyone else for whom I have now ruined that song)
-forkroot
Michael Johnson
127. ZshadeZ
Bryne: Heh. You gotta love the man’s balls. That is all.


... nah. Way too easy.
Alice Arneson
128. Wetlandernw
Mostly off topic, but I thought y'all would get a chuckle out of this too:
No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other. -- Jascha Heifetz
Skip Ives
129. Skip
@128 Je ris mon mauvais rire.

(I laugh my evil laugh.)
T C
130. Freelancer
Had the window watcher been Areina, she would have wasted no time in confronting Nynaeve, and making some type of demand, lest she go to the Salidar Six and inform them of Nynaeve's indiscretion in eavesdropping. Since that didn't happen, Areina can be discarded as a suspect. The same argument could also apply to Tarna, especially while she has opportunity to have Nynaeve alone very soon after. Somebody commented that Nicola was occupied during this time, but there's nothing said about her in this chapter after she leaves Nynaeve with Janya and Delana, so she doesn't have an alibi, but once again, the same thoughts apply to her as to Areina.

Among other potential persons of interest, Only Moghedien of the people already at Salidar would seem to have a point. The Salidar Six are still in the Little Tower, Theodrin is with Nynaeve being watched. Had it been Siuan or Leanne we would have heard something about it before long. Had it been one of the later elected Sitters, Nynaeve would have paid for the offense very quickly. Just about everyone is excluded on one basis or another, except somebody that isn't already a resident at Salidar.

The analysis by toryx, regarding reasonable behavior of someone with Balthamel's background, does make sense. For someone who can use Illusion to disguise, Mask of Mirrors to hide, and doesn't even have to mask her ability, since she channels saidin, it's just good strategy not to wander in and announce your existence until you know as much as possible. Cabriana certainly provided much information, but she never saw Salidar, so the political, functional, and tactical conditions are unknown to Halima. Unwise if she had found out too late that going straight to Anaiya would lead to her unmasking. And it's important to note that she went to Anaiya first, for two reasons. One of Cabriana's close friends in the Tower, it would be fitting for someone sent by Cabriana to go to her. As one of the leaders, being introduced via Anaiya provides some built-in credibility due to the
ingrained Aes Sedai heirarchies of deference.

None of it is proof, but Halima is as reasonable a candidate as any.


Wetlandernw@128

While I don't suspect you mean me, I wouldn't bet money others didn't think of me when they read that.
Alice Arneson
131. Wetlandernw
Freelancer, I most certainly didn't mean you! Actually, I didn't have anyone in particular in mind, it just hit me funny. Far more true in some other settings than this one, in general, though I have vague recollections of seeing a couple of these here. I probably think it of myself as often as anyone else. ("Gee, I wish I'd thought about that a little more before I posted it. That was weak..." or whatever.)
Skip Ives
132. Skip
So, it’s an example of the law of unintended consequences? (That's kind of on topic - if a little early)
craig thrift
133. gagecreedlives
When Halima introduces herself to Delana she also refers to herself as Aran’gar and Delana recognises that name from her dreams but I cant remember if she mentions how long she has been having these dreams.

If its been for about a week it could be circumstantial evidence that the watcher from the window is Halima. Or it could mean absolutely nothing at all.
Captain Hammer
134. Randalator
Shimrod @124

Min seems to have had a viewing of Carlinya with a tattoo of a raven floating next to her hair. Interesting that ravens are used as spies by the DO. I considered the Seekers, but they also have a tattoo of a Tower along with the Raven.

A raven, symbol of the Imperial family; the Tower of Ravens, symbol of Imperial justice.



To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family.
(TSR, ch. 38)

The raven tattoo doesn't mean "Seeker", only that Carlinya will most likely be made property by the Seanchan.


gagecreedlives @133

You don't have to be close to someone to influence their dreams, as Egwene proves time and again. So Delana's dreams tell us nothing about Halimaran'galthamels whereabouts...
Lsana
135. branwhin
Forkroot,

You are indeed a stinker. Particularly for the, um, mephitic poetry. An *amusing* stinker, though - I did LOL at work. Perhaps fortunately, I am alone in the office at the moment and didn't have to *explain* the cause for my hilarity.

Wetlander,

Very nice quote! I don't think I'd ever come across that one before. (128)

I don't recall ever having payed particular attention to that particular 'watcher in the window,' actually - quite possibly because nothing came ... errr, nothing *obvious* came of it (this is RJ we're talking about here).

I do remember being *very* worried when Moggy reveals that she knows Elayne loves Rand. Thank the Light she's had the sense to keep that one under wraps since, even going so far as to flirt with Mellar (eeeyuck!!!) to throw people off the scent. Still, with Caemlyn being very close to Camlann in name, and Andor being particularly rich with Arthurian references ... uh-oh. Ishydin may be an utter whackjob, but he's not, unfortunately, a *stupid* whackjob.

Wise, Hell no - anybody who'd ally himself with the DO won't get that particular descriptor out of me. But not moronic. Most of the time.

Here's hoping that made some kind of sense...
craig thrift
136. gagecreedlives
Randalator@134

"You don't have to be close to someone to influence their dreams, as Egwene proves time and again."

I think thats more of an indication of Egwenes strength with dreaming than anything else. In KoD we have an Aran'gar PoV when she thinks that she can only find Egwene's dreams when she is right beside her.
Richard Boye
137. sarcastro
Incidentally, the article over at theoryland looks suspciously like the WOTFAQ article on this topic, only with the relevant textual passages inserted.

(which I wrote well before that post, fwiw).
Alice Arneson
138. Wetlandernw
On a semi-related topic, I was musing on all these little mysteries this afternoon... We've been virtually promised that AMOL will not be neo-classical in nature: it will NOT tie a nice knot in each thread, trim the ends neatly and give us an all-questions-answered finish. So... what will be left unanswered?

Of course, my first thought was that we'll likely never know for sure who the watcher in the window was. My second thought was... Verin's 70-year plan. Can't you just see it? There they are, in the middle of TG, and she gets hit by some nastiness. As her dying thought, we get "70 years of preparation and planning, disrupted by this stupid battle, and now I'll never..... *gasp* I'll never.... *wheeze*... *dies*" And we'll never know what it was. AAGGHHH! And OF COURSE it would be brought up again to let us know that we don't get the answer instead of just dying a quiet death. ;)
john massey
139. subwoofer
WEEEE! Sorry folks, funny story er... not, about new areas and utilities hook ups.

Anyways- @wetlandernw82- Lannis@115 said it for me. Costco is fairly instantaneous. The nice thing too, at least for me, is that people in my area seem to not be big RJ fans so I don't have to rush to get a book, it's right there at a much marked down price.

@Forkroot- *LOL*- not the weather pattern I was thinking about. I do a 7-layer that has the same effect. My "bowl of the winds" has been licensed to be served outside or in well ventilated areas only.

@Leigh- no, I really don't want to love Bryne's balls. I try to avoid such things at all costs ;P

WoT related... was thinking about a reverse 13x13 and my question is- what's the point? Get a person who has willingly gone to the DO and force them to be good? That is much like the Joker in reverse. Creepy. Would a person want to convert Sammael back to the Light? meh. A douche is a douche, Ingtar did come back, but he did so in his heart and he repented- give a baddy a chance to do that first and there is no need for a reverse 13x13. Or maybe its just me.

Woof.
Jay Dauro
140. J.Dauro
We do see someone looking out a window in tGH, but before the end of the same book, it is confirmed that it was Lanfear.

I think (YMMV) that if it had been Halima, it would probably have been confirmed before the end of 5 more books.

That being said, as best I can make from the arguments, it wasn't anyone.
john massey
141. subwoofer
Verin's 70 year plan creeps me out too. Towering ego to figure that she will be around to see it come to fruition and also very very tricky of her to have such a plan and not have somebody come along at year 35 and say "Shenanigans! You are so busted!"

Look at Moiraine and Siuan. They made it to year 20 and then everything went sideways for them.

Incidentally, that "need thing" works exactly the opposite for me. If I really need something and focus or try to force it, things fall apart. Only when I back off and not think about it, then it just comes to me.

Woof.
Alice Arneson
142. Wetlandernw
Here's a thought on the "reverse 13x13"... they're called ta'veren.

It's not the same thing, of course, but it does seem to have the effect of magnifying the desirable "heroic" characteristics and somewhat diminishing the less desirable ones (or at least mitigating the effect thereof).

Aside from that, what's the opposite of a fade?
craig thrift
143. gagecreedlives
"Aside from that, what's the opposite of a fade?"

Galad?

Wears all white and is always trying to do the right thing

*edit* He also has eyes :)
T C
144. Freelancer
Verin's 70-year plan...

Who knows what Verin knows? Maybe she has been hiding a talent for Dreamwalking, and has knowledge of the future, which includes not telling anyone lest it fall apart. How long did she have possession of Corianin Nedeal's twisted stone T'a'R access ring? If she's been around long enough, perhaps she's been through the redstone doorway before it was sent to Tear from Mayene, and gotten three answers. Not much chance she's been through the Rhuidean rings, or the second doorway. But she has studied as much history as any Brown, both inside the Tower library and out.

All I'm saying is there are potential methods by which she could know in advance that she'd be around to see her plans concluded. She never seems to make impetuous decisions, or to be somewhere unless she intended it well in advance. It's like she knows...


On the thought of using a 13x13 for the good...

The entire concept is anathema. Being Good, you don't Force people to your way. That's Bad. Galad would scold you.
john massey
145. subwoofer
"Aside from that, what's the opposite of a fade?"

Lan.
Lsana
147. alreadymadwiththirteens
Galad would scold you.

Just scold? No spanking?
Hurin Smells
148. HurinSmells
Verin's 70-year plan...

It must have something to do with Zarya Alkaese (Garenia). It's too much of a coincidence that 70 years ago Zarya ran away from the WT to join the Kin, the same time that Verin starts her mysterious project. Also, before running away Zarya just happened to be good friends with Careane Sedai, a known and now dead member of the Black Ajah.

I'll admit it's drawing a long bow, but the 70 year connection cannot be ignored.
Hurin Smells
149. HurinSmells
Continuing on from the above... I think perhaps Zarya may be the real DF, and Careane was a red herring. The only evidence we have that Careane is BA is the word of another BA, so could easily have been a lie, and Vandene stabs Careane before she can say otherwise. Zarya could just have easily killed Adeleas, Reanne and a bunch of other Kin. Because she volunteered the suggestion that it had to be one of 3 Aes Sedai she immediately draws attention away from herself, plus ensures shes involved in uncovering the murderer, meaning she can set false trails away from herself.
Antoni Ivanov
150. tonka
@122.J.Dauro

Yes I do. Or almost everything at least. And they may not report to Moridin directly. They may report to Shaidar Haran, and IMO it seems they will hide less from the Super Fade than from Moridin. Or directly to DO , I am sure they won't try to hide anything from him. But whoever they report all these three have many sources of information and Graendal or Demandred cannot know how much they know, they are not stupid to dare hiding something that SH,DO or Moridin know that they are supposed to tell.
So Yes I think they are telling almost everything.

The Shadow might not know everything but they know A LOT
Andrew Lovsness
151. drewlovs
101. Skip

I read ALL the comments, as I think they are the best part of the re-read. Without them, this is just a "cliff-notes" version of the Wheel of Time.

However, if I have strong opinions on a particular part of the book, I want to lay them out wthout being distracted. If I want to talk about Nynaeve's healing of Logain, but the first 100 comments are on the sitter's game, I might completely forget what I was going to say. Well, I will, actually.

For me, if someone is talking about something already covered, I skip it and move on; why take it as someone not respecting your opinions?

Besides, I always tell you that I have not read the other opinions yet when I lay down my ideas, so you are forewarned.

I apologize if I am being defensive, but it really sounded like you were on the attack there.

*EDIT* I read further, and I take back the "attack" assertion. I still stand by my decisions to not always read the comments first; far too often, we get hooked on a hot topic created by someone else, and forget something that might be ground breaking.

Rest assured, though... I always read the comments from the other users.

Here is an interesting topic: if Leigh creates a topic that you find greatly interesting, which responder do you want to read the most? Anyone who reads these weekly will probably have a fovorite; mine is R.Fife. I have always found that, IF he responds (and he doesn't always), he has something very interesting to add.

There are others, of course; I just picked my favorite.
Roger Powell
152. forkroot
drewlovs@151
I read all the comments before I post, primarily to make sure no one has already said what I was planning to say. I know what you mean about losing track of some of the thoughts you want to share though. Sometimes I'll pop up a notepad window and make notes to remind me.

Here's the contents of my notepad window from earlier today:

subwoofer@79 bowl posting - good spot to inject some childish bathroom humor in response

- and then later -

Freelancer@105 has teased me, now I can really give everyone the full blast (as it were)

- and then finally -

write low-content response to drewlovs@151

See how easy it is when you take notes? :-)
Maiane Bakroeva
153. Isilel
HurinSmells @149:

I think perhaps Zarya may be the real DF, and Careane was a red herring.

But if Zarya was a DF, wouldn't she have led some Forsaken to the *angreal cash?

Also, an AS-strength unaffiliated channeler would be a pretty useful minion. Why leave her in the Kin - a worthless organization from Shadow POV, until they hooked up with Elayne and Nyn?

IMHO, it is possible that none of the Kin are DFs, because they flew under everybody's radar. If a Tower reject was DF inclined, why would she join the Kin rather than one of the DF circles directly? Or if she decided to become darkfriendly later why would she remain in the Kin for 70 years? That would just invite scrutiny.
Jay Dauro
154. J.Dauro
HurinSmells @149

KOD Chapter 31

"If you're going to kill them," Marillin said as though discussing the price of bread, " spare Careane. She is one of us."

When the BA is capturing them, and intending to keep Elayne alive, why would she lie? To deceive Elayne they would have to leave Careane alive, and Careane would have to go along with it. They do not expect any of the AS to return to the Palace, so it cannot be to protect Zarya. They cannot expect Careane to die immediately so that she cannot refute the lie. So I have to believe that Careane was BA.
Jane Smyth
155. Kaboom
Verin's 70-year plan...
It must have something to do with Zarya Alkaese (Garenia). It's too much of a coincidence that 70 years ago Zarya ran away from the WT to join the Kin, the same time that Verin starts her mysterious project.


I'm a little confused with this "70 years plan"
I only remember Verin mention that she made her last major error 70 years ago. Can someone remind be why it is thought she began a plan 70 years ago.
Thank you
Rob Munnelly
156. RobMRobM
Ka - check Verin's internal monologue after Rand leaves (post-bonding) in Leigh's last post. Verin refers to plans that have been in works for 70 years. R
Skip Ives
157. Skip
drewlovs@151 - That was not meant as an attack at you. I'm sorry if it came off that way. If I ever have an issue with someone I'll deal with them personally. My reaction to people's "not reading the comments" thing is an old reflex thing.

I'm an old guy, and spent a lot of time on LISTSERV and Usenet discussion groups in my youth and asking a question previously posted apparently triggered old memories.

I don't take any issue with you sharing your thoughts "in the blind", I kind of do that too. But I'm old and I take notes on paper. I'm still getting a feel for everyone, so I don't have a favorite commenter yet, but no one has annoyed me yet either.



@148 HurinSmells I think that something relating to the BA happened 70 years ago, though I don't know if I think it was the driving force. Whatever happened, may have driven Verin to begin researching the Dragon and given her pause to say anything to another sister.

Then again we may be over-thinking the whole thing. It may be a throw-away line because Verin earned the shawl 70 years ago. She may be just saying that she's spent her whole life trying to understand the Prophesies of the Dragon, and Rand just tromps through them, not even realizing when he fulfills them. I can see the frustration in that.

That said, I hope there is something there. Sneaky Verin is too cool.
Marcus W
158. toryx
Freelancer @ 130:

Had the window watcher been Areina, she would have wasted no time in confronting Nynaeve, and making some type of demand, lest she go to the Salidar Six and inform them of Nynaeve's indiscretion in eavesdropping.

I don't know about that. Nicola and Areina held on to the knowledge that Nynaeve and Elayne were posing as full Aes Sedai for quite some time before they did anything with it (as far as we know). I can't see Areina acting that impulsively, especially without Nicola's involvement. The former tends to follow the latter's lead and Nicola seems to be the type who bides her time until she can use what information she has to her best advantage.

Thanks for supporting my arguments re: Halima, though! It's nice to know someone thinks I have a point.

Again @ 144:

On the thought of using a 13x13 for the good...
The entire concept is anathema. Being Good, you don't Force people to your way. That's Bad. Galad would scold you.


Thank you. That's exactly what I was going to say. Except for the Galad part.


wetlander @ 128:

I saw that same quote on my igoogle this morning and immediately thought of the Re-read too! But certainly no one specifically.
Antoni Ivanov
159. tonka
"Seventy-one years had passed since she had last made a serious mistake" (TPOD Prologue) and the Plan she is working is for 70 years .Obviously whatever is the mistake it has occurred before she began this 70 years old Plan.

And I think that Moiraine and Siuan know about the Plan. I think she told them the Plan if it really is refering to the Dragon Reborn

TGH Ch 7:

“It is unlikely,” Verin began, “that anyone who hasn’t studied the old records thoroughly would notice anything except that you were behaving oddly. Forgive me, Mother. It was nearly twenty years ago, with Tar Valon besieged, that I had my first clue, and that was only . . . ”


Yes, I notices she says 20 not 70 but later she say "and that was only..." .We don't know what else she is saying. I'd give a lot to have these 3 dots filled but that's what we have.
Jane Smyth
160. Kaboom
RobMRobM @156

Thanks. Lately I have not completely read Leigh's summary as I though it was still fresh in my mind from my own re-read. Well I was wrong (and it feels a little embarrassing asking such an obvious question). I will have to read it all now. I use to be at the same pace as Leigh but I have sped it up in order to finish in time for the next book.
Jane Smyth
161. Kaboom
bizarre!
The link to part 8 does not seem to work. It keeps bringing me back to the index page. The other links are OK though
Skip Ives
162. Skip
tonka @159 I think Verin's comments there relates to her first getting an inkling that the Dragon was reborn. I think 70 years ago she got some sign that the Age was nearing a close, and being Brown knew what that meant.

Twenty years ago was when sisters were killed other sisters were apparently out killing any man that could channel.

Verin was no one's fool and could read the signs. She plays the part of the stereotypical Brown so well no one realizes that she is studying them.

She also seems to be one of the few sisters that split her time inside and out of the Tower. This let her get a unvarnished look at what was happening in the world on one hand, and allowed her the ability to step back and see the larger picture.
Antoni Ivanov
163. tonka
Yes, it's very likely that way , Skip .I really don't know. I was just offering more to think about.
Rob Munnelly
164. RobMRobM
Kaboom:

Verin tsked irritably. If you took risks, sometimes the bill came due when you least expected, in the last way you expected. Almost seventy years of delicate work on her part, and now it might all go for naught because of one young man. Even so, she had lived too long, been through too much, to allow herself to be dismayed.
James Jones
166. jamesedjones
Re: Reverse 13x13

It's not as cool, much less fun, rarely works, and is very arduous and painful for everyone.

Think about it: 13 friends (opposite of DFs) confronting another person to stop them from doing something that they really enjoy.

ROFL!
Marcus W
167. toryx
The difficulty with Verin and her Plan is that we don't know what she wants. We know she's brilliant, that she knows things that most likely no one else knows but we don't know what she wants at all. It's hard to imagine that it's related to the Last Battle since Rand is a complication to the plan, not a crucial measure in it (granted, an assumption on my part).

Given that, it's difficult for me to imagine it has anything to do with the ending of the Age either, because that's most likely tied to both the Dragon Reborn and the Last Battle.

So, what do we know about Verin? She's Aes Sedai, has been one for a long time. She has a warder though she tends to forget about him a lot, or at least run around without him. She's from Far Madding (curiously enough, like Cadsuane) and she seems to be able to either lie or twist the truth beyond belief ("Moiraine sent me.").

She also can evidently kill or disable a sister with poison, which, combined with the possibility of being capable of lying, suggests she's free of the oath rod.

She'll break tower law by using a version of compulsion but hasn't acted overtly against Rand. But that doesn't tell us anything about what she might want.

I briefly considered that maybe she's working to either see that the Power is more readily available (more Aes Sedai) or perhaps attempting to find a way to take it out of the world entirely (no Aes Sedai). But that's entirely baseless and hardly worth suggestion. She's definitely the mystery that intrigues me more than just about any other.
Lsana
168. topknot
This happened to me once, although since I have never had 13 friends, it didn't work.
James Jones
169. jamesedjones
168 topnot

Of course not. If it worked, it wouldn't be the opposite. It would be the same, just in a different direction.
Antoni Ivanov
170. tonka
@167

She also can evidently kill or disable a sister with poison, which, combined with the possibility of being capable of lying, suggests she's free of the oath rod.



1. To speak no word that is not true
2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another
3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai

I never get it why people think that Verin must be free of the oath rod if she want it to poison Cadsuane. I mean . Read the 3th oath carefully. And for someone suggesting that she violates the 2nd oath, she didn't made the poison really herself.Not mentioning it could be argued if a poison is considered a weapon at all.Don't forget all depends on person's perception.

And Aes Sedai are famous for twisting the truth on its heels.I wouldn't be surprised if they see 2nd oath as the 3th not to use the One Power to make a weapon. Very often it doesn't matter what something says but how people perceive it.
Skip Ives
171. Skip
toryx @167 - A few things:

We don't know that Verin lied about Moiraine sending her. Verin may have been talking to her and asked as she got up to leave "May I go?". Moiraine wouldn't remember saying yes, but Verin has her excuse. That said, it may be that she can lie.

Killing by poison isn't forbidden under the three oaths, using the power to kill is (with exceptions). (As tonka points out.)

Verin doesn't think that her weave is Compulsion, so it isn't - to her. The fact that she needs to think about it gives weight to the agrument she isn't Black (not your point, but I figured I'd add it).
Lsana
172. longtimefan
About Verin and the alledged lie.

In the Great Hunt which I do not have with me since I am at work there is an opening bit at Fal Dara (names not accurate from memory) where Moiraine, Verin and Suian are discussing the boys and Moiraine says to Suian in Verin's presence that the boys must be watched (something like that.) this chapter is about two or three chapters ahead of the chapter where Verin says "Moiraine sent me."

I have always belived that this was where Verin may have assumed Moiraine was speaking to both Suian and herself where Moiraine apparently belived she was only speaking to Suian.
Antoni Ivanov
173. tonka
Someone pointed out the books online . It's easier that way. Although if you are at work I wouldn't encouraged spend a time going through too much non-work related things unless you really don't have anything to do.
Skip Ives
174. Skip
You might want to kill that link. I'm just saying ...
Marcus W
175. toryx
tonka @ 170 & Skip @ 171:

Just to clarify, I am aware of the discussions on both sides of the argument when it comes to Verin's potential status of not being bound by the three oaths. That's why I was saying that the poison business suggests that she's free of them. Oath # 2 is so open ended that it's hard to be sure how effective it is or isn't. Verin being who she is, I've always thought it more likely she did make the poison rather than go buy (or steal) it from somewhere and in my view, that IS a potential violation of the oath. I realize that may be wrong; it may well be that the "Men" qualifier in the oath means it wouldn't matter, even if she had made it.

The business of the lie has been debated for over 15 years at this point and it's never been satisfactorily.

As far as the oaths go, I'm not sure that perspective is the balancing factor. After the AS gave their oath to Rand at Dumai's Wells, they tried any excuse they could think of to slip free of them without success. If perspective were solely the defining factor I think they'd have found a way.

But you're both right: The point on the oaths is so uncertain and unsteady that it's hardly worth mentioning. I've read the arguments both way and they both have valid points. Sorry I brought it up in such a hypothetical post.
Skip Ives
176. Skip
toryx - No worries, it is a possibility and we haven't discussed it to death here. Just because we point out the other side of the argument doesn't mean we think it shouldn't be discussed.
Tess Laird
177. thewindrose
About the poison - Sorilea actually gave the vial to Verin. It is a sleeping sedative. 3 drops to induce sleep, a few more can kill.
Antoni Ivanov
178. tonka
I want to clarify about perception. I didn't mean that Aes Sedai would perceive that what she is making is not a Sword (while clearly she is making a sword). Some things are open to interpretation though. In the Aes Sedai who swore to Rand for instance - they swore to serve, they cannot budge from here But HOW will they server him, what does it MEAN to serve him (obeying his every whim and grovelling in front of him , maybe? Well they were clear it doesn't mean that). These all depends on the Aes Sedai perception.

And since I mentioned swords, it seems that the 2nd oath is the reason that no one has made a power-wrought sword since almost 3000 years.
j p
179. sps49
Tonka, really, putting that link on Tor.com is uncool. You might want to edit your post 173, even if someone posted it elsewhere.
Alice Arneson
180. Wetlandernw
tonka, I agree that perception is a key in interpreting the Oaths. There's the long-dead discussion of the first Oath: "to speak no word that is not true" really doesn't guarantee anything. First, if an AS thinks something is true, even if she's wrong she can say it with absolute certainty and not have a problem with the Oath. RJ also said there's room in it for sarcasm, as long as she thinks the other person will percieve the sarcasm. (I don't believe it can include conscious self-deception, though. She has to really think they would get it.) So if an AS honestly didn't see the weapons use of a particular item, she could make it easily and then someone else could use it as a weapon. (As a related thought, remember Egwene-on-a-leash, when she couldn't touch the water pitcher for three days just because she thought about hitting her sul'dam with it? Perception...) And as for the third oath, there's that scene (KoD, I think) where one of the three AS feels sufficiently threatened to grab saidar with intent to fight, while the other two, not feeling a "clear and present danger" couldn't have done so. And once they make her look at the situation more closely, she admits that she's not in danger of her life and lets it go. But it's definitely a matter of perception: two AS thought they were safe enough, one thought they were in mortal danger; all three expected to obey their oaths, but their actions were... rather different!
Jason Lyman
181. jlyman
@142. Wetlandernw

Aside from that, what's the opposite of a fade?

The only opposite that I could say would be "Sharpie."

OK, so that was lame. But you try finding a cool antonym for fade.

You others are just being too literal,... or wait, maybe I'm the one being too literal in finding the opposite. Ah well. (I know... I'm late to the party on that one.)

@166. jamesedjones

Think about it: 13 friends (opposite of DFs) confronting another person to stop them from doing something that they really enjoy.

Sounds like a "magical" intervention to me.

@179. sps49

It's too late! I've already bookmarked it!
T C
182. Freelancer
tonka@159

In New Spring, 20 years prior to the Fal Dara scene you quote from, Verin is active around Moiraine and Siuan. Her first clue might have come via some mild questioning of the girls after they took her "foul-tasting concoction", ostensibly to help them sleep. Verin knew that those two were with the Amyrlin and Keeper when Gitara Moroso dropped dead. In any case, she was watching for the DR, whether or not she was taking any more active role. Once the Two Rivers boys were introduced, Fain was sprung, and the dark prophecy was presented, Verin added up the factors and decided that one of the boys was The One. I think she comes up short of completing that sentence because she took liberties that she doesn't want known, such as; "...and that was only because I dosed you and Moiraine with a truth potion and found out about Gitara's Foretelling." Pure speculation, of course.

All that to say this. I don't see a positive connection between that and her plan which has been 70 years in the works.


Verin as black is just unimaginable to me. She's the Illya Kuryakin of the Light. Nobody expects her, and she shows up just in time to influence matters. As to the "poison" she considers dosing Cadsuane with, it is a powerful sedative, capable of killing if enough is used. We don't know how much she was thinking of using, so there's nothing to say that murder was her intent. If she had decided Cadsuane was opposed to the DR, she might have considered that justification for killing under her oath to Rand, or she might have simply dosed Cadsuane to safely shield and handle her. So no absolute judgement is possible on that count.


Hmm, how about something related to the chapters at hand. Nynaeve says quite clearly and with full self-awareness, "I am not very good at surrendering." Now how can someone be that candid about a fault that is getting between them and something they want so badly, and not figure out a way around it? And she thinks the men are stubborn!
Marcus W
183. toryx
tonka @ 178:

Ah, gotcha. Well I see your point (and wetlandernw's @180) but I think there's limits to the perception. At least, the perceived reality of a situation has to be honest. Using an example someone else gave earlier stating that when Moiraine said that Rand has to be watched and Verin could have taken that to mean she's been sent by Moiraine, ergo she's telling the truth.

I suspect (cannot know) that Verin cannot make that logical leap because she knows that Moiraine wasn't, in fact, sending her to keep an eye on things.

To work with wetlandernw's example, a pair of aes sedai may not be able to use the one power as a weapon because they don't, in fact, feel threatened. But that's an honest assessment; I don't think an AS would be able to look at a man whose sitting at a table, waving around a knife that has a piece of meat stuck in it during an active discussion and think to herself, "Ah, he's waving a knife threateningly! I can attack him now!"

In other words, the perception of a scenario has to be genuine. When it comes to truth certain leaps can be made but it a statement still has to be held up to be what the AS knows to be true in reality.

Of course, I could be wrong. This is a tangly subject full of thorns, and my brain hurts now.

By the way, I agree with the others about your link @ 173. At this point the Tor Gods have had plenty of time to follow the link and refer it to their lawyers for a cease & desist (if they choose to do so) but I don't think this is the forum for encouraging others to take part in a violation of copywrite laws.

Unless, of course, they actually have permission. I personally don't dare to click on the link to find out.
Pablo Defendini
184. pablodefendini
@Tonka 173

Sorry dude, I had to redact that link—that text is in violation of Harriet and Macmillan's IP, and we shouldn't be pointing to it from this site.

If I had my druthers, I wouldn't have done so, since I personally think that, in the absence of a legitimate digital copy form the IP holder, anyone who creates one should be able to do so, but unfortunately the law of the land (and Macmillan's policy) doesn't agree.

Hm. Sounds like people would find e-editions of the WoT books useful, though. Maybe someone should do something about that. And soon.
Skip Ives
185. Skip
I'd love good e-book versions of the books, though my problem with the Kindle is that the notes you take are bound to your copy of the book. Especially for something like the WOT series, the ability to share your margin notes would be a great help.

The WOTFAQ could be so helpful as a bunch of footnotes loaded in with each book that you could turn on and off.

I'm not as sure about the new format the Sony reader chose, but maybe that will be better.
Pablo Defendini
186. pablodefendini
@Skip #185:
Sony is, somewhat surprisingly for the company that brought us the Betamax, the Atrack, the Minidisc, and a slew of other proprietary formats, aggressively backing the ePub format, which is an open, standards-compliant ebook format which most of the publishing industry is aligning behind (with he notable and willful exception of Amazon, of course). As a person who makes and enjoys ePub books, it's pretty nifty.

Neat idea about the WOTFAQ, by the way ::jots in his notes for future reference::
Lsana
187. liedra
I think the link to this page is broken on the chapter listing! I had to find it by navigating through from elsewhere :)
Lsana
188. liedra
oops disregard that, it's for part 8, not 9 that the link is broken!
Lsana
189. Alphashard
I certainly hope that Tarna isn't Mesaana or a BA for that matter I remember her being the only decent Red besides Pevara.
Lsana
191. lurker
totally late to the game, but @36 and related to finding what they need for Rand.

Did it bother / concern anyone else that Elayne and Nynaeve decided to specifically look for a ter'angreal not in Tar Valon?

Eliada's diary would work, or Rand's old teddy-bear.
Would have saved us from the whole bowl thing.

Maybe that's why the whole bowl subplot was kinda useless (IMHO). The bowl was the best answer that fit the ter'angreal not in Tar Valon solution; but could still be number 99 on a list of 100 things that would help.
O C-P
192. Baldsilver
The woman at the window: No clue who it is

arangar

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